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Commons ChamberThis Government are determined to break the link between background and success. Through the opportunity mission and the child poverty taskforce, we will break down the barriers to opportunity for all, by setting up every child for the best start in life, helping them to achieve and thrive, and building skills for opportunity and growth, so that background is no barrier to success.
Research from the Bloody Good Period campaign shows that one in five women and girls is now experiencing period poverty, so not only is there a socioeconomic disadvantage, but a further gender penalty. This gender-based injustice costs the UK billions—some £3.3 billion—in lost work annually. Will the Minister tell the House what the Government are doing to tackle period poverty, and are there plans for the taskforce on this to reconvene?
We are tackling the root causes of poverty through measures to make work pay by boosting the living wage and investing in our public services, so that no one, including women, have to go without the essentials. There are also lots of great programmes that support women and girls with period products, such as the scheme in my own Department, which provides free products in education settings.
Proper paternity and maternity pay are essential for breaking the link between current income and further life opportunities for families. Currently, one in five fathers does not take the paternity leave available to them because it is financially inadequate. Inadequate paternity leave drives family inequality, increases the gender pay gap as women pick up greater caring responsibilities, and lowers household income. Does the Minister agree that, while the Conservative party might think that paid parental leave is too high, we on the Labour Benches recognise its crucial role in giving children the best start in life? What actions are Ministers considering to better support parents and families?
I strongly agree with my hon. Friend that, while the Conservatives have said that they think parental leave is excessive, we want to give families more choices. Through the Employment Rights Bill, we will make paternity leave available from day one in a new job and enable it to be taken after shared parental leave. We are also committed to reviewing the parental leave system to ensure that it better supports working families.
Independent research from the Social Mobility Foundation highlights a stark class pay gap, with professionals from working-class backgrounds earning, on average, 12% less than their more privileged counterparts in the same roles, and one in 10 people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds finding it difficult to get higher-skilled managerial and professional occupations. Despite the fact that socioeconomic background remains one of the biggest determinants in chances for life for young people in this country, few large organisations monitor it. Will the Minister consider mandating larger organisations to monitor socioeconomic backgrounds, so that we can properly highlight social mobility and give it the attention that it deserves?
I share my hon. Friend’s concern in this area, which is why we are committed to enacting the socioeconomic duty of the Equality Act 2010, and we shall give more information on this in due course. I also encourage businesses and organisations to collect data where they can, so that we can take action to tackle some of those deep-rooted inequalities that my hon. Friend describes.
Merry Christmas to you and yours, Mr Speaker.
There is a clear link between low household income and poorer educational outcomes leading to reduced future earnings. In Stoke-on-Trent, median pay is nearly £70 less per week than the England average. Does the Minister agree that tackling regional income inequalities is critical if we are to promote social mobility and to enable all of our people to succeed in life?
I agree with my hon. Friend that it is absolutely crucial that we take action on regional inequalities. He champions that cause very strongly on his constituents’ behalf. He will know that we have set out an ambitious plan for the future of the minimum wage, and we are taking action to make sure that all workers receive more money in their pockets to spend. He also draws our attention to the importance of children having a great start in life, which is why we as a Government are committed to making sure that more children than ever arrive at school and get the support they need, so that, by the end of reception, they are ready to move on to the next stage in their journey.
In the City of London, one of the big remaining challenges is to ensure that the maximum number of people from the widest socioeconomic backgrounds can get into that industry. Recently, I met people from Progress Together. Vincent Keaveny, a recent Lord Mayor of the City of London, has made massive progress to understand that the data collection process does not need to be expensive. Will the Secretary of State get in touch with her ministerial colleagues and the Financial Conduct Authority to alert them to the opportunity to collect data at little expense, which would really raise the profile of the remaining challenge?
I am more than happy to do that. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his work in this area and the attention that he has drawn to it, because it is a cause that we can all get behind. There is more that employers can be asked to do, as he describes, and more that we can do as a Government. That is why it is important that all young people have access to good work experience and careers guidance, so that they understand the full range of opportunities out there in the world.
Women carers are far more likely to reduce their working hours or give up work entirely to look after their loved ones, putting them at a significant financial disadvantage. Does the Secretary of State agree that the Lib Dem policy to reform social care and introduce free personal care would keep more women in work for longer?
I understand the hon. Lady’s important point. She will know that in the Budget we increased the threshold for the carer’s allowance and delivered a big boost to the payments that people can receive, but I understand the wider challenge that she sets out around social care. That is why the Health Secretary is taking action to ensure that we transform social care across our country. I am sure that Ministers would be happy to discuss that with her further.
The Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill, introduced to the House yesterday, sets out to unpick every aspect of the school reforms that have led English school children to rocket up the international league tables in English, maths and science. How can the Government possibly say that they want to break down barriers to opportunity when they are reversing reforms that have transformed the lives of the most disadvantaged students?
I do not know which Bill the hon. Lady has been reading, but it is not the Bill that we presented to the House yesterday. I am determined to drive high and rising standards right across our schools system. She might be satisfied that one in four disadvantaged children leave primary school without reaching a good standard in English and maths, but I am not happy about that. Nor am I happy about the fact that one in five children are persistently absent from school and that we inherited a special educational needs and disabilities system in crisis. We will turn that around, and deliver better life chances for all our children.
Low-earning women are far less likely to have sufficient private pensions than their male counterparts. Is that why the Secretary of State decided that governmental responsibility ends when working age ends?
The hon. Lady raises an important point about some of the differences in pensions. I am more than happy to pick that up with the relevant Minister to ensure that she receives a full response.
Merry Christmas, Mr Speaker. Here’s to festive tipples in our locals, but it is certainly not a cheery Christmas for the Women Against State Pension Inequality, whom Labour has betrayed.
Hospitality is at the heart of our economy, with a diverse workforce: 17% of the sector’s workers are disabled under the Equality Act 2010; 20% are from ethnic minority groups; and over 54% are women. Will the Secretary of State tell the House what conversations have taken place between her and the Chancellor on the chilling effect on future earnings of the Labour Government’s jobs tax and higher business rates, underpinned by £3.4 billion of increased costs according to UKHospitality, which will drive down future earnings?
I agree that the hospitality sector is crucial to our economy, and at this time of the year, when many people will be working across Christmas, I pay tribute to them for their work and thank them for their contribution to our economy. On her wider question, the hon. Lady knows as well as I do that the Government inherited a £22 billion black hole from the Conservative party. We have had to make some difficult decisions in order to stabilise our economy and get it back on track.
Merry Christmas, Mr Speaker. The Government are relentless in our efforts to halve violence against women and girls. In just five and a half months in office, we have launched domestic abuse protection orders in selected areas, outlined new measures enhancing our response to stalking, and announced £30 million in extra funding for victims of domestic abuse and their families in safe accommodation services—and that is simply the beginning. We will continue at that pace.
Violence against women and girls remains a serious issue, worsened by online abuse, misinformation and a harmful rhetoric that risks increasing violence. In my constituency of Burton and Uttoxeter, the Sexual Abuse Rape Advice Centre provides vital support to survivors, while working to challenge those attitudes and promote cultural change. Given the crucial role of charities like SARAC, what steps is the Minister taking to support such organisations, and will she visit SARAC with me so she can see its amazing work?
At these questions I always end up halfway around the country, but I would be delighted to come. Having worked in this sector, I know that we will not tackle violence against women and girls without a strong and sustainable model that ensures our specialist services are protected. That is what we will work on in the long term, rather than what has always been a short-termist approach.
Ultra-realistic deepfake porn is increasingly being used to target women, and I know the Government agree because they committed to criminalising it in their manifesto. For the sake of victims, intimate image abuse needs to be tackled without delay, so why on earth did the Government not back Baroness Owen’s Bill in the House of Lords to ban it last Friday? The Minister is a great talker; she talks a good game, but for the sake of women, when will she deliver?
As somebody who went into the Home Office and found a load of things that were said at this Dispatch Box dwindling and left undone for three years, I take umbrage. The Government will do exactly what we said we will do and will ban deepfakes in this Session. As a victim of it myself, I understand the importance.
Merry Christmas, Mr Speaker.
Violence against women and girls takes many forms—verbal, physical, emotional, financial—and at all ages, but one of the most insidious forms is online abuse. With technology developing faster than legislation can respond, the ways it is being used, such as deepfakes, are also developing faster than legislation can respond, and the use of generative AI to create fake intimate images leaves many women vulnerable. I know the Minister cares deeply about this, so can she tell us what steps the Government will take to ensure that it is tackled properly? Will she work with Cabinet colleagues to create a new online crime agency to deal with that threat?
Funnily enough, I am meeting Cabinet Office colleagues later today to talk exactly about how we ensure the violence against women and girls strategy is across different Departments. Without doubt, one of the most important pillars of that strategy is how we will deal with the online harms. We all wait with bated breath to see how the legislation and the new regulations play out, but we will not draw the line at the legislation that already exists, and where we need to adapt, we will.
Conversion practices are abuse. They have no place in society and must be stopped. The Conservatives promised to ban conversion practices six years ago and failed to deliver. They then dropped it from their manifesto this summer. We are getting on with the job and working hard on legislation to deliver a trans-inclusive ban that offers protection from those harmful practices, while preserving the freedom of individuals to explore their identity and respecting the important roles of those supporting them. We will publish our draft Bill later this Session, as outlined in the King’s Speech.
Conversion practices trade and prosper on fear, prejudice and intolerance. Charities in Weston-super-Mare and across this country do amazing work to bring communities together to promote tolerance and tackle prejudice. Will the Minister outline what support the Government are providing to help charities deliver that vital work in constituencies like mine?
My hon. Friend is right that civil society plays a unique role in challenging prejudice and enabling more people to access the opportunities they deserve. A good example is Galop, the UK’s leading LGBT+ anti-violence charity, which provides a number of Government-funded support services, including on conversion practices. Its helpline is confidential and available to anyone who is at risk of, is experiencing or has been through a conversion practice.
Last week, I held a meeting in Parliament with a panel of trans people talking about their experiences of so-called conversion therapy, and their evidence was harrowing. I thank the MPs and the Minister who attended that meeting to listen to them. I am leading on a report for the Council of Europe to ban those abhorrent practices across Europe, and I am pleased to hear from the Minister that we will soon be setting out the legislation. Will the legislation be fully inclusive, without any exceptions, so that we can refer to it as best practice for all countries to use?
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for her work in this field, including on the Council of Europe. I can assure her that we will deliver on our manifesto commitment to bring forward a full trans-inclusive ban on conversion practices, protecting LGBT+ people from abuse. We are committed to listening to all viewpoints and concerns with respect, and to engaging with a wide range of stakeholders, organisations and all LGBT+ communities. I was very pleased to join her at the event she mentioned. We will engage further with parliamentarians and stakeholders in the new year.
The previous Government committed to a parent-first approach to guidance. As part of the Government’s review of the statutory relationships, sex and health education guidance, will the Minister make it clear that parents should be involved in decisions that affect their children, including if their children are gender-questioning?
As the hon. Lady will be well aware, we are looking at the consultation responses and will respond fully as is appropriate.
In rolling out any legislation, will the Minister ensure that mature adults who, of their own volition, want to take part in discussions of gender issues in faith-based settings will not be restricted or inhibited from so doing?
I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we are looking carefully at how to describe the sort of behaviour that would not be criminalised by the ban.
The Government are committed to breaking down the barriers of opportunity for all, and to race equality throughout Government, so that our missions deliver for everyone. We are working on our plans to legislate to introduce mandatory ethnicity pay group reporting for large employers, and to enshrine in law the right to equal pay for ethnic minority people. Those measures were announced as part of the draft Equality (Race and Disability) Bill, on which we will consult early next year.
I commend the Government for their commitment to tackling discrimination by introducing ethnicity pay gap reporting for large employers, for example. Nearly 80% of my Ilford South constituents are from black, Asian and minority ethnic backgrounds, and the community is disproportionately impacted by conditions such as diabetes. What are the Government doing to tackle health inequalities and disparities among minority ethnic individuals?
My hon. Friend raises a vital issue on behalf of his constituents. The cross-Government approach that we are taking to tackle the root causes of health inequalities is central to our health mission, and includes prioritising prevention and shifting care closer to communities. On type 2 diabetes, the NHS has developed a focused engagement campaign to raise awareness among groups that are most likely to develop that condition. He may wish to connect with that campaign.
I wish you a merry Christmas and a good new year when it comes, Mr Speaker.
I was astonished that the vacillating Prime Minister did not take the opportunity to definitively rule out blasphemy laws, which have no placed in modern British society. This is the land of “Monty Python’s Life of Brian” after all. Will the Minister take the opportunity to do what the Prime Minister would not by completely ruling out the introduction of blasphemy laws?
Merry Christmas, Mr Speaker.
Following this summer’s racist riots, the Runnymede Trust reported that Islamophobia is reaching fever pitch, with mosques attacked and threatened, and cars vandalised with Nazi swastikas. All that has left many Muslims feeling unsafe, but it is especially true for women, who have reported having hijabs pulled off, suffering racist abuse and being threatened with physical violence. We will all have heard of such incidents from our constituents, but the extent to which Islamophobia and misogyny are systemic in the structures that we rely on mean that Muslim women bear the brunt of the intersectional hatred of the far right and sometimes, sadly, the mainstream media. Does the Minister see the need for an agreed definition of “Islamophobia” that understands its impact on Muslim women?
Islamophobia, sexism and racism have no place in our society, and my hon. Friend will be aware that we have committed to strengthening protections against dual discrimination. The Minister for safeguarding, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Yardley (Jess Phillips), is working on addressing hate crime against Muslim women. I am also pleased that my hon. Friend’s Committee will be undertaking work on the specific challenges facing Muslim women in the UK today, and I look forward to following that work.
I recently met a group of women from Bangladeshi origins in my constituency who are desperately trying to find work, which is not easy, especially after the decimation of the textile industry in Leicester South. As English is not their first language, and as not all potential employers have the capacity or time to meet the Department for Work and Pensions’ demands for written proof of job applications and interviews, they are finding it extremely stressful and it is affecting their mental health, especially when they are threatened with sanctions. Does the Minister agree that more empathy needs to be built into the system?
The hon. Gentleman has raised an important point, and I will ensure that he has a meeting with the relevant Minister to discuss it.
The Minister for Women and Equalities has said that background should be no barrier to success, but what message does it send to our young people when they are told that there are some job opportunities they cannot apply for solely based on the colour of their skin? Equality in this country must mean equality of opportunity, not putting some people in society on a pedestal above others, so will the Minister write to all public bodies to make it crystal clear that the state should not be sanctioning race-based hiring policies?
The right hon. Lady will be aware that it is illegal to discriminate in the way she has described. I will certainly ensure that her question is followed up with the relevant colleagues.
Earlier this month the Government set out our “Plan for Change”—a plan to raise living standards for everyone. Everyone should have access to warm homes, a revitalised NHS and opportunities to thrive at work, and they should feel safe on our streets. I am proud to be driving our mission to ensure that background is no barrier to success and that every child has the best start in life. This week marks the end of Disability History Month, during which my right hon. Friend the Minister for Social Security and Disability has met disabled people and disabled people’s organisations and set up a network of lead Ministers for disability across every Government Department.
Last week I visited Northamptonshire Domestic Abuse Service, where we discussed estimates that reported incidents of domestic abuse in the UK spike up to 20% during the Christmas period. What are the Government doing to ensure that those affected by domestic violence can get support at this time of year?
I thank my hon. Friend for that important question, and I pay tribute to the work of Northamptonshire Domestic Abuse Service and everyone working across domestic violence and sexual abuse services this Christmas. I know from my own experience of working in such services over the Christmas period how busy it can be, but I want to send a message to all victims that support is always there when they need it, even at Christmas, and the police will always respond when called. Where there are serious concerns, people should know that they are not alone at Christmas, and that help and support is always available.
Turning a blind eye to the risks faced by vulnerable people in the name of inclusivity is anything but compassionate. We know that cousin marriage significantly increases the risk of birth defects and locks women into coercive relationships. My right hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Holden) has tabled sensible legislation to ban this practice. Why will the Government not support it?
The Government will of course always keep such issues under review, and I will ensure that the Minister in the relevant Department speaks with the right hon. Lady on this topic.
My hon. Friend raises a good example of the kind of topic we need to work on across Government, and I was pleased to chair the first meeting of the cross-Government disability lead Ministers yesterday. The Department for Transport has consulted on this problem, which can be very serious for people with a sight impairment, and is considering the options for tackling it. I very much hope that my hon. Friend will let me know what he finds out in his walk around his constituency shortly.
The Government could not have been clearer about our position on antisemitism: there is no place for antisemitism in our society, nor for any form of racism. That applies whether it is in educational settings or in any other part of our society, and that has been made very clear indeed.
Yesterday I met the brave men and women serving on HMS Iron Duke and the troops serving in Operation Cabrit in Estonia. This Christmas, as every Christmas, members of our armed forces will be serving overseas, working day and night to protect Britain’s national security. I know that the whole House will join me in sending our deepest thanks to them, to our emergency services and to everyone working to keep the country safe over the festive period.
Mr Speaker, may I also take this opportunity, at the end of the year, to thank you and the House staff for all your hard work this year, and can I wish everyone across the House a merry Christmas and a happy new year?
This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall have further such meetings later today.
May I associate myself with the Prime Minister’s remarks?
In 2021, Ceri and Frances Menai-Davis, who live in my constituency of North East Hertfordshire and are in the Gallery today, tragically lost their son, Hugh, at the age of just six to a rare form of cancer. Now they are courageously campaigning to ensure that every parent who must leave work to look after a sick child in hospital gets the financial support they need from day one. Will the Prime Minister meet them and me to discuss implementing Hugh’s law, and giving their son a legacy that improves the lives of families at the most difficult time imaginable?
Can I pay tribute to Ceri and Frances—it is a heartbreaking case—and commend them for their campaign on behalf of other families? I know that the Minister for Social Security and Disability met the family yesterday, but no parent should endure losing their child to cancer, particularly at such a young age. We are investing £1.5 billion for new surgical hubs and scanners, and £70 million for new radiotherapy machines, and we will set out our next steps on the children and young people cancer taskforce shortly.
Can I send my warmest wishes to our armed forces at home and overseas, to the emergency services, and to everyone who will be working over Christmas? Can I wish you, Mr Speaker, the House staff and all Members of this House a very merry Christmas?
For years, the Prime Minister and his Cabinet played politics with the WASPI women—the Women Against State Pension Inequality Campaign. The Deputy Prime Minister said the Conservatives were stealing their pensions. She promised to compensate them in full—another broken promise. Now, they admit that we were right all along. But let us ask about another group of pensioners whose trust was broken. Since the Chancellor cut winter fuel payments, how many extra people have applied for pension credit?
The No. 1 job of this Government was to put the finances back in order after the last Government lost control. They left a £22 billion black hole and we had to take tough choices. We made sure that the most vulnerable pensioners do get the winter fuel payment, and we have been encouraging them, driving up eligibility for pension credit and people signing up to their entitlement. The Leader of the Opposition should join that campaign. Here is the difference: because we have stabilised the economy, we can commit to the triple lock. That means that next April pensioners will get another £470. Here is the difference: two weeks ago, the shadow Chancellor said that the triple lock is “unsustainable”. Their position is that pensioners would lose out under the Tories yet again.
The Prime Minister did not answer the question because he does not know the answer. There are 850,000 eligible pensioners not claiming pension credit. If they sign up, that will cost the Treasury £2.3 billion, wiping out the savings that the Chancellor claimed she would make. Before the election, the Prime Minister’s Chief Secretary to the Treasury told the public that Labour had no plans to cut winter fuel payments, but they did have plans, didn’t they? Age UK says:
“Cutting the Winter Fuel Payment, with very little notice…will potentially jeopardise the health, as well as the finances, of millions of older people”.
Does the Prime Minister agree with Age UK that this is the last thing that pensioners and the NHS need?
We have been driving take-up with the campaign for pension credit. It is important that everyone who is entitled to it claims that pension credit. The Leader of the Opposition should not claim as some great victory that the record of her Government was that people had not signed up. We are the ones with the campaign, and the Tories should be supporting it. Because of the triple lock, pensions will be going up by £470 next April. She has not answered the question. Her shadow Chancellor says that the triple lock is “unsustainable”, so she needs to explain how pensioners would be worse off under a Tory Government.
We protected the triple lock during all our time in government. Meanwhile, energy bills are increasing, despite the Prime Minister’s promise to cut them by £300. In Scotland, his party leader wants to restore the winter fuel payment. Across England, councils are scrabbling together funds for struggling pensioners. The tragic reality this Christmas is that pensioners will suffer and may even die as a result of this cruel policy. Did the Chancellor consider the impact on councils and on the NHS, or does she just not know what she is doing?
The household support fund was set out in the Budget, as the Leader of the Opposition knows. We are pushing up pension credit. She now says that the Conservatives are committed to the triple lock. Her shadow Chancellor says that they are not and that it is “unsustainable”. Perhaps over a sandwich or a steak they could sort it out and come back and tell us what their policy actually is.
The Prime Minister needs to misrepresent me in order to make his point; I do not need to misrepresent him in order to make mine. The truth is that he did not think this through. Cutting winter fuel payments is not just callous; it may not make savings and it could actually cost us all more. It is not the only policy that is making things worse. The Chancellor’s Budget is a body blow to family businesses and charities. Marie Curie has warned that Labour’s Budget will cost it nearly £3 million a year. That is a cancer charity saying that it has no option but to reduce services. Did the Chancellor tell the Prime Minister that her jobs tax was going to hit charities?
The Leader of the Opposition has asked three questions about winter fuel—[Interruption.] I will come to that. She has changed her mind. She used to say that the payments were a “dead weight”. She said that she had constituents who did not need them. They all stood in 2017 on a Tory manifesto that committed to getting rid of the universal winter fuel payment for pensioners. We can see what their real commitment is—[Interruption.] As for the Budget, we are driving up productivity across—[Interruption.]
Order. I do not want to have to ring the hon. Gentleman’s mother.
We are driving up productivity, prosperity and living standards. That is a pay rise for the 3 million lowest-paid—the Tories should welcome that—a pay rise for those working in the NHS, and better than expected wage growth just before Christmas. What unites all three is that they are delivered by Labour but opposed by the Tories.
I do not know what world the Prime Minister is living in. The economy is shrinking, and the Government did not think this jobs tax through or who it would impact.
Another area affected is the hospice sector. Hospices believe that the Budget will cost them an extra £30 million. Yesterday, Conservatives voted to exempt social care, nurseries, charities and hospices from Labour’s jobs tax. Labour voted that down. Can the Prime Minister at least agree to fund hospices so that they can continue their invaluable work helping people at the end of their lives?
We have put a record amount into the NHS in the Budget to deal with the problem that the Conservatives left. We will set out the funding arrangements for hospices in the new year. But it is the same old, same old: they want all the benefits from the Budget, as she has said herself, but she does not want to pay for any of them. That is what got us into the problem in the first place.
I did not hear a commitment to help hospices, which is a shame. The truth is that this winter people will be suffering because of the Prime Minister’s choices. The economy is shrinking, inflation is going up and jobs are being lost because of his Budget. Pensioners will be unable to heat their homes because of his Government’s decisions. They raised people’s hopes but then smashed them with broken promises. And now we learn that he is about to give away our hard-won Brexit freedoms—[Interruption.] Yes—the truth is that Labour is punching the British people in the face—literally, in the case of one of his MPs. He will pretend this is about the past, but we all know that these are his choices—bad choices. If he is looking for a new year’s resolution, why does he not start with telling the truth?
I will do it now. A £22 billion black hole left by the Conservatives, record numbers on the waiting lists—[Interruption.]
A £22 billion black hole, record waiting lists in our NHS—Conservative Members should hang their heads in shame—and immigration completely out of control, with nearly a million net migration. The Leader of the Opposition was the cheerleader for all of that. She wants the truth—that is the truth. That is why the Conservatives are sitting on the Opposition Benches.
While Conservative Members carp from the sidelines, talking the country down, this Government are getting on with the job: record funding for the NHS; money for our trains, buses and, yes, potholes; pay rises for 3 million of the lowest-paid; wages growing faster than inflation; planning laws reform; and Great British Energy set up. We are only getting started. Next year we will continue to rebuild, no matter what the blockers opposite say.
I thank my hon. Friend for her question. Jim Callaghan was a giant of the Labour movement and a great public servant. He left school at 17 and served in our Royal Navy before becoming Home Secretary, Foreign Secretary, Chancellor and, of course, finally Prime Minister. I am sure that he, as a proud son of Portsmouth, would be honoured to be remembered in such a way. [Interruption.] Happy Christmas.
Order. Let me just say to Mr Mayhew that I keep hearing you. I heard you the other week when you were sat to my side, and I am hearing you again over there. It not a good time to push your luck. I call the leader of the Liberal Democrats.
I join the Prime Minister in his praise and best wishes for our armed forces and emergency services, and I join others in wishing you, Mr Speaker, a happy Christmas, along with all the staff of the Commons and everyone across the House [Hon. Members: “Sing it!”] I will sing in a minute.
I have had the great joy of spending time recently with some amazing young people from the Bath Philharmonia young carers choir. They are a brilliant example of the power of music to make a difference in young people’s lives. One member, Caitlyn, has even developed a special new project to spread the joy of music to young people in our schools and communities. Will the Prime Minister meet Caitlyn to hear more about her exciting project, and will he work with us and others to support music in our schools and communities?
I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s comments. As he will know, today we are introducing the landmark Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill to enable all children to succeed, including young carers. We increased pupil premium funding to over £2.9 billion, which can be used to support pupils, including carers, with identified needs. As he knows, now that young carers are on the school census—and have been since 2023—they have greater visibility, and schools will be better able to identify and support them.
The right hon. Gentleman talked of singing; there were carols outside our front door on Monday, and my family were surprised to see him shamelessly plugging his song. We have strict rules about antisocial behaviour, but in the spirit of the season, I simply say, “Happy Christmas”.
I wish the Prime Minister a happy Christmas. I thank him for allowing the young carers choir to sing outside No. 10, and I hope that he and the staff enjoyed it. Our song is called “Love is Enough”, but the hard truth is that for many young carers and young adult carers, love is not enough. These amazing young people need real action to help them with the challenges that they face. In addition to the measures that the Prime Minister just talked about, will he support the Carers Trust’s young carers covenant, to ensure that, across local authorities, we give these young people all the support that they deserve?
We should support these young people, and we continue to work across the sector to ensure that all schools identify, support and record data on young carers. We boosted the carer’s allowance in the Budget. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman on those young carers.
My hon. Friend is right about the appalling inheritance, which included record numbers sleeping rough and almost 160,000 children living in temporary accommodation. We are delivering nearly £1 billion to councils to tackle homelessness, including increasing funding in Bolton over the next year. That includes dedicated support with housing, mental health and employment. We are also committed to tackling the root causes, which is why we are building 1.5 million new homes and abolishing section 21 no-fault evictions—something the Conservatives said they would do and repeatedly failed to.
In 2022, the Prime Minister supported calls for fair and fast compensation for 1950s women impacted by the changes to the state pension. Yet, just yesterday, his Government rejected those same calls out of hand. Is that what the Prime Minister meant when he promised to lead a Government of change?
This is a serious issue. Between 2005 and 2007, there was a 28-month delay in letters to women born in 1950s about changes to pension age—that was unacceptable, and it was right that the Government apologised. In 2011, the former Chancellor George Osborne then accelerated those changes with very little notice. That, equally, was unacceptable, and Labour opposed it at the time. [Interruption.] It is a serious issue, and a complex one. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the research shows that 90% of those impacted knew about the changes that were taking place. I am afraid to say that the taxpayer simply cannot afford the tens of billions of pounds in compensation when the evidence shows that 90% of those impacted knew about the changes. That is because of the state of our economy.
My hon. Friend is right that the SNP is letting down patients in Scotland. As the Scottish Auditor General says, “greater leadership” is needed in the Scottish NHS. Waiting list targets are being missed, spending on agency staff is skyrocketing, and delays to patient discharge are hitting record levels. [Interruption.] SNP Members seem to be proud of that appalling record. We have provided the money, and they have the powers—they have run out of excuses.
The trains and all travel were in an appalling state under the previous Government, and we are clearing that up. We are fixing it, and the hon. Gentleman should welcome that.
I have just set out the factual background and the percentage who knew about the change. The simple fact of the matter is that in the current economic circumstances, the taxpayer cannot bear the burden of tens of billions of pounds in compensation. [Interruption.] Opposition Members are chuntering away, but, in 14 years, they accelerated the changes and never once spoke about compensation.
I thank the hon. Lady for raising this important issue on behalf of her constituents. It underlines the critical nature of the NHS workforce plan that we will deliver next summer to ensure that the expert workforce is in place and get the NHS back on its feet. I am proud that we are investing an additional £22.6 billion to fix our NHS. I will of course ensure she gets a meeting with the relevant Minister to deal with the issues of concern to her constituents.
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that issue, because every single child deserves the best start in life and there are far too many shocking cases of children being let down. The Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill is being introduced today. That puts children’s interests at the heart of Government policy and I hope it will be supported across the House.
Labour promised not to raise taxes on working people, but farmers are some of the hardest-working people I know. Peter Douglas from Jedburgh has looked at the details of this policy and he says that Labour’s inheritance tax increase will prevent him passing on his family farm to his son and daughter. They say Labour has betrayed them and cannot trust the Prime Minister to keep his word. They’ve got a point, haven’t they?
If the hon. Gentleman would kindly pass the details of the individual case he has raised to my team, we will look into it. As he knows, we put a record £5 billion into farming over the next two years in the Budget. Just two weeks ago, £350 million was put in to support farmers. That contrasts with the £300 million underspend of the last Government on farming. In a typical case, the threshold is £3 million, which means that the vast majority of farmers will be unaffected, but I will look into the individual case he has raised with me.
I am glad my hon. Friend has raised that, because off-road bikes were a complete nuisance under the last Government and got completely out of control. We are introducing new respect orders to crack down on off-road bikes, strengthening police powers in relation to dealing with this big problem that got out of control under the last Government. We will also deliver 13,000 more neighbourhood police to ensure that we keep control of our streets—something that was lost under the last Government.
I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising that issue on behalf of his constituents. We are, as he knows, committed to fixing the foundations of local government and keeping taxes as low as possible for working people. The Budget announced a real-terms increase for local government, with over £4 billion of added funding. We will put that support in place, and he is right to raise that issue.
I thank my hon. Friend for drawing attention to the people of Syria and to the health workers of all backgrounds who do vital work in our NHS. The fall of Assad’s brutal regime is to be welcomed and should be welcomed, but we must be cautious about what comes next. We have provided £50 million of extra support to vulnerable Syrians and I have spoken to G7 leaders to work towards a Syrian Government that respects international law, universal human rights and protects all citizens across all sectors.
Scottish National party Members used to ask those questions from an area that contained a great many MPs not so long ago, but all that changed in July. Now the hon. Gentleman is carping right up there at the back, and we can hardly hear him.
I am sure that colleagues on both sides of the House support the values of the International Association of Parliamentarians for Peace—with which I know my hon. Friend is involved—and its work to support human rights across the globe. That, I think, is the sentiment that we take into this festive period.
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his appointment to the Intelligence and Security Committee, and thank him for raising the question of our troops in Estonia, who, as he says, will be there over Christmas without their families. They are right on the frontline, with a very clear sense of purpose, as part of our NATO contingent, and we thank them. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that we must continue to support Ukraine—that was the subject of our discussions in Estonia yesterday—and ensure that it is put in the strongest possible position, whether in negotiations or not. We must also make it absolutely clear that this conflict could be ended straight away if the aggressors, Russia, backed off.
The WASPI women fought one of the most sustained and passionate campaigns for justice that I can remember, year in year out, and we did promise them that we would give them justice. I understand the issue of the cost, but does the Prime Minister really understand how let down they feel today?
I do understand the concern; of course I do. I have set out the history, but the research findings make it clear that 90% of those impacted did know about the change. In those circumstances the taxpayer simply cannot afford the burden of tens of billions of pounds of compensation, but, as I have said, I do understand the concern.
I know that the Prime Minister is aware of the case of my constituent Sara Sharif, who was brutally tortured and appallingly murdered by her father and stepmother. I want Sara’s legacy to be one in which she is the last vulnerable child to be killed by people who should have looked after her. Will the Prime Minister ensure that an independent inquest and review of Sara’s death is held at the start of the new year, so that we can learn why public authorities failed and ensure that it never happens again?
The hon. Gentleman is right to raise that absolutely harrowing case. It is important that all the lessons are learnt. An independent process is taking place, but we must be clear about the need to overhaul children’s social care to keep young people safe, and to look again at the framework for home schooling, among other things. We do need to learn those lessons, and we are taking steps. There is a process going on at the moment, and I will update the House in due course.
May I thank the Prime Minister for the leadership that he has shown in securing the half-a-billion-pound deal to secure the future of the Hitachi rail factory in my constituency—a factory left in the lurch by the Conservative party for years? Does he agree that what we also need is a long-term plan for our proud high-tech rail manufacturing to drag it out of the mire that it was left in by the Tories?
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. The Conservatives really should not groan. I went up to the Hitachi factory earlier this year, before the election. The workforce were extremely anxious about the situation, because they feared that there would be a gap between contracts—[Interruption.] That gap would have meant that people were going to get laid off, and the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Alex Burghart) is chuntering from a sitting position, unable to understand the impact on working people.
The workforce were extremely anxious about the situation when I saw them, because they knew that if their colleagues were laid off, it would be bad for their colleagues and their community, and it would mean that they might go and get other jobs and not be able to come back if there was a new contract. I said then that I would do everything I could to ensure that we filled that gap, and I am very pleased that just the other week we were able to say that we have and that there is a contract. I went back up there to speak to the same workforce, and they were very pleased that they now do not have those anxieties. The Conservatives should be ashamed of their chuntering.
As it is Christmas, will the Prime Minister join me in congratulating Chris Middleton, who wrote a charity song to support Age UK that has already raised £10,000? What is even better is that it is likely to beat the leader of the Lib Dems’ single to No. 1 this year, proving yet again that the Lib Dems cannot win—something that I hope we can both agree on.
I am not going to adjudicate between the contending singles for the top of the charts, but I end this Question Time by wishing a happy Christmas and a peaceful new year to everyone across the House.
(1 week, 1 day ago)
Commons ChamberUrgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
Each Urgent Question requires a Government Minister to give a response on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs if he will provide an update on the negotiations between His Majesty’s Government and the Government of Mauritius over the future sovereignty of the British Indian Ocean Territory.
I thank the right hon. Lady for her question. We welcome yesterday’s reiteration by Prime Minister Ramgoolam of his willingness to conclude a deal with the UK. We are confident that the agreement is in both sides’ shared interests, and we will continue working with the new Mauritian Government to finalise the deal. Prime Minister Ramgoolam’s comments follow his commitment to completing the negotiations, following his election, in an exchange of letters with the Prime Minister.
As part of the usual Government-to-Government engagement, the Prime Minister’s BIOT envoy, Jonathan Powell, met PM Ramgoolam in late November to start the process, and that was followed last week by a visit to Mauritius by the UK’s chief negotiator Harriet Mathews and other officials for the talks. Those talks were productive, and it is completely understandable that the new Mauritian Government will want time to study the details.
It would not be appropriate or usual for me to give a running commentary on what was discussed during routine and private engagements, nor on any potential future engagements. I am confident, however, that we have agreed a good and fair deal that is in both sides’ interests. It protects the base at proportionate cost; it has been supported across the national security architecture in the United States and by India for those very reasons. As I have said a number of times in this House, the treaty will contain clear commitments on robust security arrangements, including preventing the presence of foreign security forces on the outer islands and ensuring the base can continue to operate securely and effectively.
The agreement is subject to finalising a treaty. Following signature, the Government will bring forward a Bill to enable implementation of that treaty. Both Houses of Parliament will have the opportunity to scrutinise that treaty before ratification.
Thank you for granting this urgent question, Mr Speaker. Once again Ministers have been reluctantly dragged to the House—in fact, I have just seen the Foreign Secretary leg it. In a world of increasing danger, change and uncertainty, why are they so keen to surrender this strategic asset? We have been repeatedly told by Ministers that this is a good deal and that it has the support of the national security apparatus—we keep hearing that, but where is the evidence to justify those hollow claims?
If the deal is so good, why have the Government been so secretive about the details? Can the Minister explain? I am sorry that the Foreign Secretary has abandoned the House and not even come to this statement, because yet again we are responding to media reports. Can the Minister confirm that we will be able to extend the lease on the military base after 99 years, as reported? Will we and the US still have full autonomy of operations? What safeguards will be in place to stop other countries, including China, trying to establish themselves on the base or near the military base on Diego Garcia? How much is the British taxpayer going to be liable for each year and in total over 99 years, now that we know we will be paying for the privilege of giving away these islands? What exactly is our money going to be paying for?
The Government claim that they cannot disclose information about the lease, but surely the Minister can at least say—explain and be honest—where on earth the budget is coming from. If it is accounted for in the Budget forecast presented in the autumn—we all heard about those Budget forecasts recently—will the Minister tell us what the funding will be for the economic partnership and the trust fund for Chagossian people? Can the Minister also tell us what aspects of the deal the new Mauritian Government want reconsidering in the response? What consideration is being given to provide more funding or to weaken any protections that may be in this lease? Importantly, can he explain why the views of the Chagossian community have been so ignored?
When the whole world can see that this proposed deal was falling apart, the Foreign Secretary and this Government have tried to flog it constantly. Not only is this a monumental failure of statecraft from this Labour Government, but it is also a significant humiliation for the Foreign Secretary and his credibility and for the Prime Minister. Why are Labour putting our security at risk, ignoring Chagossians, and letting our standing go into freefall in this world?
I remind Members that these contributions should take no longer than two minutes.
We are absolutely not damaging our security; we are protecting it through this deal, and that is why this deal has been agreed—to protect the operation of that base; to protect it against the legal uncertainty; and to ensure it is on a safe footing well into the next century.
The right hon. Lady constantly refers to our somehow giving up the base on Diego Garcia, but the deal does exactly the opposite—[Interruption.] It protects the base on Diego Garcia. [Interruption.] It protects the base to continue operating—[Interruption.]
Order. Mr Gemmell, we had enough all the way through Prime Minister’s questions. If I hear any more, you are out. I seriously mean that; I am not putting up with it.
The right hon. Lady constantly talks as if somehow we are giving up the base on Diego Garcia. That is the exact opposite of what this deal does—unlike the failure to secure the deal under the last Administration, which I might remind the House went through 11 rounds of negotiations yet failed to secure a deal to protect our base. This deal protects the base.
The right hon. Lady asked a series of other questions. She asked whether we would be able to extend the lease, and the answer is yes. Would we continue to have autonomy for our operations and those of our allies? Absolutely, yes. Are there safeguards in place to prevent foreign forces or others on the outer islands? Absolutely, yes.
I have answered the questions on costs a number of times in the House. We are very clear that it is not normal practice for the United Kingdom to confirm the value of its payments for military bases anywhere across the globe. We have not done that in the case of any other base, such as the one in Oman, and the United States itself has not confirmed the value of its direct payments for bases, including in Djibouti and the Marshall Islands.
The right hon. Lady spoke about the Chagossians and, having engaged with Chagossian communities over many years, I am confident that this deal has clear benefits for Chagossian communities and will allow the resettlement of the outer islands and the restarting of visits. She also mentioned the trust fund.
The right hon. Lady referred to media reports, and there is a huge amount of speculation. Let us get back to the actual facts. The Mauritian Prime Minister himself has confirmed to his Assembly that he is willing to conclude this deal with the United Kingdom. Those are the facts, and we will protect our national security and our interests.
Under the Mauritian criminal code, anyone who questions the integrity of Mauritian territories, including the Chagos archipelago, is potentially subject to 10 years’ imprisonment. Most British Chagossians have, at one time or another, effectively given that level of disconsideration to the Mauritian Government. What conversations has the Minister had with the Mauritian Government to ensure that this part of the code is removed so that it is possible for British Chagossians to visit Chagos, in the event that the deal goes through?
As I said, we take the interests of Chagossian communities incredibly seriously. The deal provides for Chagossians to return to the outer islands and to resettle them if Mauritius decides to pursue a programme of resettlement. Most importantly, we will get on with getting those visits going so that they can go back and visit the islands, including Diego Garcia, with the appropriate protections in place.
The Foreign Secretary told this House on 7 October that his deal is in the UK’s “security interests”. The chaos we have seen since then does nothing to assure our allies or to repel our enemies. In retrospect, does the Minister think it was wise to announce an agreement just weeks before elections in Mauritius and the US? Does he agree it would be wise for any future agreement to come before this House for scrutiny and a vote before signature?
It is important that any agreement complies with the opinion of the International Court of Justice, but self-determination remains an important principle, too. Now that negotiations have reopened, can the Minister say how the Chagossian people will be represented in those talks?
A court ruled this week that Tamil asylum seekers were illegally detained, in terrible conditions, on Diego Garcia. Will the Minister apologise for their treatment and assure the House that the camp in which they were held is now closed for good?
As I have repeatedly said in this House, the interests of the Chagossians have been absolutely at the heart of this deal, and I am sure they will be confident that there are a number of provisions that will satisfy the concerns that Members are raising in good faith, and that Chagossians have raised with me directly. This was a treaty negotiation between the United Kingdom and Mauritius. The hon. Gentleman is aware of the ICJ judgment, and I will let him read that in his own time.
The hon. Gentleman specifically asks about the situation of the migrants, and we recognise and are carefully considering this week’s judgment, but I make it clear that this Government inherited a deeply troubling situation that remained unresolved under the last Administration, four years after the migrants’ arrival on Diego Garcia. I believe that the shadow Foreign Secretary was Home Secretary when the migrants first arrived, and the situation went unresolved. We were absolutely clear that the situation was unsustainable, and we worked at pace to resolve it. We will carefully consider the judgment of that court.
Those of us who have spoken to the American military know the importance of this base. Will the Minister confirm that he said that, since the agreement was announced, the American military and security services have raised no concerns with this Government?
Yes, indeed. As far as I am aware, that is the case. In fact, the opposite is true. There has been a warm welcome for this agreement from across the United States security apparatus because it puts this base and our shared operations on a secure footing into the future. I remind the House again that that is the very reason why this Government acted and, indeed, why the previous Foreign Secretary started the process in the first place, so we are told.
Will the Minister answer this with a simple yes or no? Did the Prime Minister, the right hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer), have any conversations with Philippe Sands KC about Diego Garcia without the presence of Foreign Office or other Government civil servants? Yes or no?
I do not have details of all the Prime Minister’s meetings. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman can ask the Prime Minister that question himself.
For those of us who have served for the US military, who retain genuine and close links with the US military, and who know that this issue does not bring about the concern that others are trying to conflate with it, will the Minister say what his view is on how it is seen by our US military friends?
I praise my hon. Friend for his service and work. I am very clear: our allies in the United States and, indeed, our other allies who rely on the important guarantees that the base provides are supportive of the deal. It has been supported across the security apparatus at every level and that is absolutely crucial. We would not have signed up to a deal if it did not protect our interests and those of our closest ally.
Can the Minister enlighten us as to the attitude on the deal of the incoming Trump Administration? Does he know, or shall I ask the hon. Member for Clacton (Nigel Farage)?
We very much welcome, as I have said before, the election of President-elect Trump and Vice President-elect Vance. During the transition period, there are restrictions on what conversations can go on. As I have said repeatedly in the House, we are confident that when the full details of the deal are provided by the US national security apparatus, any concerns will be allayed.
I know that the Minister is a strong supporter of the overseas territories, as are the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister. Despite this being documented already in the House and in Gibraltar, to avoid any doubt or further scaremongering, and for Members on the Opposition Benches, will the Minister once again confirm that this Government are completely committed to supporting the right of self-determination for the people of Gibraltar and the Falklands?
I thank my hon. Friend for her important work on Gibraltar, as I thank you for yours, Mr Speaker. I have said this before and I will confirm again that we are absolutely and resolutely committed to the sovereignty and self-determination of Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands. Indeed, I enjoyed meeting our overseas territories family at the Joint Ministerial Council just a few weeks ago.
It is truly baffling that such decent Ministers have allowed themselves to be bamboozled by the blob. Will the Minister confirm that this is not being rushed through in advance of the takeover of the White House by an incoming President in one month’s time? If, in one month’s time, that new President says that this is a terrible deal, will it be too late to change it?
The right hon. Gentleman knows that I have immense respect for him and his work in this House. I take issue with his choice of words. We have incredible officials in this Government who have loyally served Governments from parties on both sides of this House. They work incredibly hard to defend the national security and interests of this country. If anything, this was not rushed at all: there were 11 rounds of negotiations under the Government of the right hon. Gentleman’s party. We got in and we got a deal done that protects our national security and our interests.
What assurances can the Minister provide Parliament about the scrutiny that the agreements, which will be struck in due course, will receive?
As I have said a number of times in the House, the treaty, once signed, will go through the normal procedures in the House. I confirmed that in my answer to the right hon. Member for Witham (Priti Patel). There will be the opportunity for ample scrutiny by both Houses and legislation will be laid in due course.
The Minister gets ahead of himself. He says the Government have moved at pace to resolve the situation; the situation is not resolved. He criticises the last Government for not securing a deal; his deal is not secured either. The last time we talked about this, we talked about the President-elect not being keen on the deal and the Chagossians not being properly consulted on it. When will he come back to the House on this situation and tell us something positive about this cack-handed deal?
I have repeatedly stated a number of positive things, including the support for Chagossians that will be inherent in the deal. The positive fact is that after 11 rounds of failed negotiations under the previous Government, we achieved and have done a deal. We are confident that that deal will be supported by our partners and we will continue to present details of it in due course.
Does the Minister agree that confirming the legal status of the base, which was left outstanding by the previous Government, will cement our role in the Indo-Pacific and provide an important pillar in our strategy to counter Chinese influence in the area?
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Despite the attempts to constantly whip up the idea about Chinese influence, the deal contains specific precautions to prevent foreign forces. I remind the House again that Mauritius was one of the only countries that did not join the belt and road initiative. Its ally is India, not China.
The Government clearly want to dismantle legacies of empire. Why, then, do we think it is so important to attach the Chagos islands to Mauritius when, in fact, that link was only established when both territories were acquired by the French empire and later by the British empire? Why do we not listen to the Chagossians, instead of imposing the legacy of empire on them?
I have engaged with many Chagossian groups. The hon. Member will know, as I have said multiple times, that there are a range of views across the Chagossian community. He is perfectly able to look at the legal judgments himself. The fact is that the Government wanted to secure the long-term operation of the base, our national security and our interests. We have engaged with our partners and secured a deal, which his Government failed to do.
The current situation is clearly unsustainable. Most of the negotiations took place under the previous Administration. It is now becoming a political football. Has the Minister heard any other serious recommendations for the future of the island?
No, I have not, and I certainly have not heard them from the Opposition Benches.
I will repeat the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Bicester and Woodstock (Calum Miller), which the Minister studiously avoided. Clearly, the deal was not ready to be signed, so why was it announced two weeks before the election?
When we are looking to protect the national security of this country, we will operate at the fastest and most appropriate pace that we can. This matter had been left languishing under the previous Administration, with the future of the base unsecure. We have secured it.
May I wish you a merry Christmas, Mr Speaker?
Does the Minister recognise that the issue is being raised by the Opposition again and again, despite the cognitive dissonance that it was they who opened the negotiations in the first place? I have to endorse the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North (Amanda Martin) about the scaremongering and the irresponsible way in which the Opposition have conducted the debate with regard to other overseas territories and self-determination.
Order. I am a little bit concerned, as I granted the urgent question. I have taken a judgment call; I hope we are not questioning that.
It is absolutely right that the House scrutinises these matters and it will continue to have the opportunity to do so in a range of forums; indeed, I will meet parliamentarians later today to discuss them. There appears to be collective amnesia among Conservative Members. I have raised this a number of times. Many of them served as Ministers in the previous Government and they knew exactly what the risks were to our national security.
I have just returned, hotfoot, from a very full Mar-a-Lago. I spoke to several members—senior administrators, especially—of the incoming Administration, which will be in the White House in 32 days’ time. Let me assure you that there is very deep disquiet among them all as to what this deal may mean for the long-term future of Diego Garcia and whether such a deal will hold, given the precedent of the deal break over Hong Kong. They also cannot understand why we would surrender the sovereignty of the islands on an advisory judgment from a pretty obscure court. This is about sovereignty, and you keep saying yourself that the sovereignty—
Order. We cannot both stand. When you say “you”, you mean me. I have no ownership of this decision.
That is fair enough, Mr Speaker. If we respect the sovereignty of Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands, on the basis that it is what the people want, can we have a referendum of all the eligible Chagossians and let them decide the future sovereignty of the Chagos islands? That, surely, is the only fair solution.
We have been very clear that these negotiations are between the United Kingdom and Mauritius, and I have set out in the past the reasons for that. The interests of the Chagossians are absolutely at the heart of this agreement, and as I have said, I have repeatedly engaged with them. The hon. Gentleman continues to speculate, but with the greatest of respect, he does not know the detail of what has been agreed. He does not know the detail of what has been shared. And he does not know the detail that the national security apparatus of the United States has considered. I am confident that his concerns will be allayed once he sees the detail of this deal.
Merry Christmas, Mr Speaker. The Minister says that views across the Chagossian community are mixed. In my experience, Mr Speaker, when politicians say that, they are simply choosing the views that they want to hear. Will the Minister take the opportunity that has been given by the incoming Mauritian Government to take a breathing space in which he can consult formally and in a structured way with the Chagossians to find out what they want?
I have engaged with the Chagossian community twice in recent months, as I have made clear in answers to a number of parliamentary questions tabled by the right hon. Gentleman’s colleagues. The interest of the Chagossians will continue to be at the heart of this agreement, and I take their concerns very seriously. I am being quite honest, Mr Speaker, that there are a range of views: some oppose the deal; and some are in favour of it. That is completely natural in a democratic process.
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Having been a member of the Chagos Islands (British Indian Ocean Territory) all-party parliamentary group ever since it was founded and had a lot of interaction with Chagossians over the past 25 years, I can assure the Minister that I have met many Chagossians in this country and in Mauritius. They were abominably treated and short-changed by the deal of 1968 and then later removed from the islands. Their one unifying cause is the right of return and settlement, and I hope the Minister will confirm that that right will be upheld. I understand all the negotiations surrounding the base, but there is no reason why they should not include the right of at least visiting, if not residing on, Diego Garcia itself.
The International Court of Justice was very clear that the decolonisation process was not properly carried out by Britain in the 1960s, when Mauritius achieved its independence, and that has to be made right. That has been voted on by the ICJ, voted on by the UN General Assembly, and endorsed by the Security Council. Is any more evidence necessary to indicate that it is clearly part of Mauritius, and that Chagossians have rights within Mauritius as well as on the Chagos Islands, where hopefully they will be able to return?
I agree with the right hon. Member’s characterisation of what happened to the Chagossians in the past. It is a matter of deep regret for this Government, and, indeed, I think that regret is shared across the House. As I have said, we will have the interests of the Chagossians at the heart of this agreement. He is right to characterise the range of views across the Chagossian communities in response to the question that has just been put to me. I can confirm that the programme of visits will include the ability to visit all the islands, including Diego Garcia, with the appropriate safeguards in place. I hope, too, for a resettlement of the outer islands. A provision certainly exists for that to happen, and I think that that is one of the most likely scenario in which Chagossians can finally return to those outer islands.
The Minister is trying to say that nothing has changed on this deal, yet media reports suggest that the new Prime Minister of Mauritius believes that the deal is not good enough, and the Minister is now saying that it is the same deal. Clearly, there is something that we are not being told in this House. Either the amount of money that we are paying for the rental of the space will have to increase, or some terms and conditions have changed. Thank you, Mr Speaker, for ensuring that this House can scrutinise the position. The Minister should have given a statement to that effect, rather than having to have an urgent question. Can we therefore pause this process to allow the Chagossians to have their say and to look at what the incoming American Government have to say, and then, before we proceed with this giveaway, make sure that everyone is in agreement?
The Prime Minister of Mauritius has made it very clear in his exchange of letters with the Prime Minister of this country and also in his statement yesterday that they are willing to conclude an agreement with us. That is very clear. Therefore, on the fundamentals, nothing has changed. We are engaged in conversation. It is only natural that, after an election, they would want to do that and to be able to scrutinise the agreement. That is entirely proper. That is why officials have been having these conversations, but I will not give a running commentary on private discussions.
I know the Minister will want to give the House the greatest possible clarity on what has brought us to this point. The Foreign Secretary has been clear that one of the central considerations for the Government was the likelihood, if not the inevitability, of a binding legal judgment against the UK in this matter. The Minister will know that the judgments of the International Court of Justice are not binding on the United Kingdom when disputes are between the UK and another state which is or was a member of the Commonwealth. That would include Mauritius. I do not expect the Minister to disclose the legal advice that the Government have received, but will he please give the House some more clarity about the nature of the legal jeopardy that the Government perceive here?
I will not, for that very reason, go into that type of advice. The right hon. and learned Member knows that from his extensive and distinguished experience on these matters. I have to ask this fundamental question: if there was not a problem, why did his Government start negotiations on this?
I think we can forgive our overseas territories for being a little concerned about this Government’s commitment to their right to self-determination. Those of us who, like me, are a bit older and have long memories will remember when the previous Labour Government opened negotiations with the Spanish Government over the future of Gibraltar. But what I am more interested in today is having reassurance from the Minister that any decision will be well informed, so can he say which of his Ministers has visited the British Indian Ocean Territory?
I like the right hon. Lady, but I have to say that I find it extremely unhelpful the way that the Falklands, Gibraltar and other overseas territories, which are not comparable with this situation, are constantly brought up. I have just been with the leaders at the Joint Ministerial Council—Mr Speaker, you graciously hosted a reception as well—and we were absolutely resolute in our commitment to the Falklands and Gibraltar. I have been there and said it myself directly on the Rock. The Minister of State for the Armed Forces has just been in the Falklands saying exactly the same thing to the Falkland Islanders. I can tell you, Mr Speaker, they are getting fed up with the nonsense that we are hearing about this. It is hugely problematic for their interests going forward.
I refer Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. Surely the Minister must accept, though, that the timing of this announcement was one of the biggest diplomatic gaffes of modern times. It came literally hours before a general election was called. There was a widespread perception in Mauritius that this Government were trying to give a leg up to a very unpopular sitting Government who subsequently scored zero out of 60 directly elected seats in the Mauritian Parliament. Does he not agree that it is wholly appropriate that the new Labour Mauritian Government would be wary of the intentions of his Government?
I simply do not recognise the right hon. Member’s characterisation.
Can the Minister update the House on the measures being taken to safeguard against the emergence of Chinese military and surveillance capabilities in the British Indian Ocean Territory?
I have been very clear that, within the agreement, there are provisions to ensure the security of the outer islands. This deal would not have been agreed by the United States security apparatus or, indeed, by us were it to give that kind of benefit to another country. I have been very clear about the position of Mauritius in relation to China, and there are provisions and safeguards in place that should allay any fears on that matter.
The Minister did not seem to answer the questions raised by the shadow Foreign Secretary, so may I ask this just one more time: from which budget do the Government plan to make the annual payments that he is proposing to the Mauritian Government?
I have been very, very clear—[Laughter]. Conservative Members can guffaw all they like, but I will give the answers that relate to the facts here and that relate to the national security interests of this country. The previous Government were involved in 11 rounds of negotiations and they failed to achieve a deal. We achieved that deal. We will provide further details in due course.
Yet again, this new Labour Government rushed into an ill-judged and regrettable policy decision: to cede the British Indian Ocean Territory to Mauritius, against expert advice and with no regard to the wishes of Chagossians in this country and elsewhere. It is like the Government’s awful policies on scrapping the winter fuel payment for pensioners, the heartless family farms tax, and their jobs tax. Will the Government show some leadership, admit that they have got this wrong, scrap the deal and keep this vital territory under British control, to protect UK interests, the marine environment and ultimately global security in an increasingly unstable and dangerous world?
I gently suggest that the hon. Gentleman spends a bit more time reflecting on the failures of his Administration on this and a series of other issues, from the public finances to our national security. This Government are clearing up the mess that his party left behind on not only this issue but so many others.
I thank the Minister for his answers; however, I am a sponsor of the British Indian Ocean Territory (Citizenship) Bill, which calls for descendants born to individuals within the British Indian Ocean Territory to be able to register as BIOT. There is now an even greater imperative because of the Chagos decision, which was made with no input from local people. What discussions will take place with those who consider themselves British? The Chagossians seem not to be assured, so what will be done to ensure that they receive all the necessary information in a timely manner, and will not get answers to their questions through news media outlets?
I have a deep respect for the hon. Gentleman. As I have said a number of times, the Government deeply regret the way that Chagossians were removed from the islands and treated thereafter. We have always been clear on respecting the interests of Chagossian communities. I have engaged, and will continue to engage, with Chagossian communities. Their interests are at the heart of the deal, from the trust fund to the ability to resettle on and visit the islands, and a series of other measures that we have taken here in the United Kingdom. I am confident that their interests are being respected.
(1 week, 1 day ago)
Commons ChamberThe Government were elected on a mandate of change, to deliver a new era of economic growth and national renewal, and reverse the years of failure and decline that we inherited. Through the tough decisions that we took in the Budget, we prevented a return to austerity while protecting working people’s payslips. The plan for change that the Prime Minister unveiled earlier this month is the next stage on the journey of reform—a plan to kick-start growth and get Britain building again, putting more money in people’s pockets and delivering 1.5 million new homes, good jobs and opportunities for all.
Just this week, we announced our plans to rebuild and reform local government, and to empower local leaders to deliver that change so that the benefits are felt in every community. We cannot do this alone. We need strong, empowered local government to work with us, as equal partners in a new relationship. Public service is our collective duty, but after a decade of cuts, fiscal mismanagement and the failure of the previous Government to fix the foundations, it is a fact that councils of all political stripes are in crisis. The broken local audit system in England and the scandal of the unacceptable backlog that led to the recent whole of Government accounts disclaimer further illustrate the dire straits of the system and the legacy that we must reconcile.
The Prime Minister gets this. As a former director of a critical public service, he knows that reform is vital, and so does the Deputy Prime Minister, having worked on the frontline as a home care worker, seeing the human impact every single day. I am proud to have public service and local government in my blood too. That is why I take the responsibility to lead the Government’s work to rebuild the sector with the seriousness that is due and the urgency that is required. The work has already begun, and today marks a major milestone in our mission to rebuild local government and put councils on a firmer financial footing, as we publish the provisional local government finance settlement for ’25-26 and launch our consultation on these proposals, alongside our consultation on wider funding reform.
In the autumn Budget, the Government announced £4 billion of additional funding for local government services, of which £1.3 billion would come in the settlement presented today, but we know that we need to rally. That is why I am announcing over £700 million of additional grants. That includes over £200 million of extra funding for social care since the policy statement. I also confirm that the new funding includes £515 million that will be made available in the final settlement to support councils with the increase in employer national insurance contributions. The package in the provisional settlement will enable local government to invest in the vital services that people rely on, making £69 billion available—equivalent to a 3.5% real-terms increase in councils’ core spending power when compared with ’24-25. I confirm that this will increase even further in the final settlement.
Today is the start, not the end. Taken together, the additional funding made available in this settlement and the Budget will deliver over £5 billion of new funding for local services over and above local council tax. Alongside that, every authority in England will receive a one-off share of £100 million currently held in the business rates levy account.
Together, we must ensure that public investment is used for long-term prevention and reform of local public services, rather than expensive short-term crisis responses, which often have much worse outcomes. We are determined to end the cycle of failure that we have seen for too long, and we will provide certainty by ensuring that no authority will see a reduction in its core spending power after accounting for council tax flexibilities next year. We are also ensuring that taxpayers’ money goes to where it is needed the most. That includes an immediate down payment: a highly targeted £600 million recovery grant, funded through repurposing the rural services delivery grant and the services grant, ahead of broader reforms to a fairer funding system later. Today, we are launching a consultation on local authority funding reform starting in ’26-27.
There will always be tough decisions to make, but we are determined to ensure that we fairly reflect the real drivers of cost, including demand, the need for public services, and importantly, the ability of councils to raise revenue locally. That is why we are making up to £3.7 billion of extra funding available through this settlement to help local authorities to meet the spiralling costs of social care. That includes an additional £200 million uplift to the social care grant, which I confirm today, taking the total increase to the grant for ’25-26 to £880 million. That includes the new children’s social care prevention grant, first announced in the policy statement, which I today confirm will be uplifted in a further final settlement by £13 million, taking the total to £263 million. That is the first step in our national roll-out of transformed family health services, as we double settlement investment in preventive children’s social care services to over £500 million next year. I place on record my appreciation, and that of the Deputy Prime Minister, for the partnership and determination shown by the Treasury, the Education and Health Secretaries, and their Ministers and officials.
We will not do as the previous Government did and impoverish councils, and those who need support the most, then parade them around for public shaming. That helps no one. We must work together to get councils back on their feet financially. The principle stands that it is for local authorities to decide at what level they set their council tax, and they are accountable to local taxpayers; however, we are committed to keeping taxes on working people as low as possible, and we have to strike a balance, so we will maintain the previous Government’s policy, as set out in the Office for Budget Responsibility forecast, of setting a 5% council tax referendum principle, made up of a 3% core principle and a 2% principle for the adult social care precept. That means that residents will have the final say over increases that go beyond that.
We have put in place a framework for 2025-26 to support those councils in the most financial difficulty. Similar to the approach taken by the previous Government, we will consider requests for bespoke referendum principles on a case-by-case basis. We expect the changes outlined today will give the respite needed and clarity on the direction of travel, but we also know that 14 years have hit hard and, for some, the recovery grant and the other measures will still mean that additional support is required. We will put taxpayers and the impact on working people at the forefront of our decisions, and we will look carefully at councils’ individual circumstances—for instance, how much they charge in council tax and the strength of their plans to protect vulnerable people on low incomes.
To recognise the impact of council tax on households across all councils, we are consulting with the sector on changes to payment instalments, which will allow annual council tax bills that are spread over 10 months to move to a 12-month schedule by right, helping household budgeting, spreading the cost for working people and mirroring how most household bills are paid.
Ensuring local government can deliver for working people in the long term requires a root-and-branch reform of the way that councils are funded. That is why through the 2026-27 settlement—the first multiyear settlement in 10 years—we will introduce an up-to-date assessment of councils’ needs and resources. Today we are launching a consultation on the objectives and principles of those changes. We will consider representations from all corners of the sector to develop our understanding of the drivers of need, including deprivation, and of the impact in rural areas on service delivery—fairness for all delivered once and for all. We will redouble our work to shift power away from Westminster into the hands of those communities who know their area best. We will reduce the myriad of funding pots that councils have to contend with, giving them the flexibility they need to deliver local and national priorities.
That effort is underpinned by our strategy to streamline and simplify the local audit system in England. Local communities deserve transparency, accountability and the effective early warning system that local audits provide. We are taking immediate action by replacing the broken and dispersed system with a focused, proportionate and value-for-money local audit office, ensuring that the system is fit for purpose. This is a long-term challenge, and it will take hard work and dedication to achieve, which is why we are wasting no time in fixing the foundations, getting the audit backlog under control, overhauling the system for the long term, returning to secure multiyear settlements, and bringing forward ambitious plans for devolution, growth and reform of public services, while improving standards, accountability and efficiency. We are building for the long term to get local government fighting fit, legal and decent, and as equal partners to rebuild our country from the ground up, and ready to play its part in delivering the Government’s missions through our plan for change. I commend the statement to the House.
It is Christmas. The two wise men and the wise woman on the Government Front Bench have arrived bearing their gifts for local councils, but on closer inspection, while the goal is beautifully packaged, the box is somewhat emptier than people had been expecting.
It has been a challenging few weeks for local government. We have heard the Government’s plans to take as much of the local as they can out of local government, and it is clear that this statement will leave our local authorities facing further challenges in doing their day jobs and significant uncertainty as we go into the new year. All that comes from a Government who promised just a short time ago that they would end the bidding war, as they called it, among councils. They then promptly started a new bidding war for homelessness funding, rather than addressing it through the settlement given that it is a core statutory duty of local authorities. The consequence of the Government’s approach is that localism, on central Government terms only, represents just in London a £700 million net cut in the funding that councils will have available to deal with homelessness at a time when rough sleeping is at 27%.
Councils face uncertainty about the cost of funding elections. The Minister told us just a few days ago that he would be considering whether to cancel local elections in places facing local government reorganisation. Up and down the country in all those local authorities, our returning officers are booking and paying for the polling stations, hiring the staff and carrying out the canvassing. They need certainty as we go into the new year.
Of course, our councils face additional and uncertain challenges that were announced in the Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill, as well as from various statements made by other Ministers, that clearly imply a significant increase in the cost of new statutory duties coming the way of our local authorities, with no clarity about how those may be funded. All of that is on top of bringing forward local government reorganisation proposals to a deadline early in the new year. It is not clear whose interests that serves, but for all those local authorities that may be considering that, it represents a significant additional cost pressure.
As many of our councillors go away for their Christmas break and try to digest the detail of the settlement over their Christmas lunch, they will face rumbling indigestion as they realise that their budget pressures will grow significantly, especially in rural local authorities, which face huge losses from the cancellation of funding that supported the additional and quantified costs of local government services in a rural environment.
I will be fair to the Minister: the £2.7 billion black hole that we spotted at the time of the Budget announcement has shrunk by around £700 million, but when it comes to council tax increases that will be announced by our local authorities in February, how much will they have to put up council tax to meet the shortfalls? How much will they have to put up council tax to cover the Government’s new approach to asylum, which is driving up the cost of temporary accommodation? When will the Government provide clarity on the dedicated schools grant override, given the impact it has on our local authority budgets? When will they provide clarity on the election preparation costs? Given that the Local Government Association has identified a £1.766 billion shortfall just from the Government’s national insurance contributions measure, when will they announce further funding to cover those costs?
Let us consider this: the cancellation of the new homes bonus means £3 million lost by Birmingham, £3.7 million lost by Buckinghamshire, £4 million from Central Bedfordshire, £5.3 million each from Ealing and Milton Keynes, £3.7 million from North Yorkshire alone, £9.5 million from Lincolnshire, £14.3 million from the rural services grant and an £18 million cut for a rural local authority in this Budget. It is clear there are tough times ahead for local authorities as they begin to look at the detail. The new homes bonus, in particular, means the places that have built the most homes are the ones that lose the benefit. If this is fixing the foundations, I would not want to stay in the tent which is the only thing they would hold up in our local authorities.
Here we go again. I would think that after 14 years of councils being on year-to-year watch to find out what position they would be in, the Conservatives would at least welcome the preparation now for multiyear settlements. They had 14 years to get their house in order, and they could not even line up to give councils more than 12 months’ certainty about what was coming. The one thing councils were absolutely certain about was that it was only going to be bad news after bad news. When there were crises in adult social care and children’s services and when homelessness was rising at a rate of knots, the last Government were completely missing in action—that was what councils were facing. How many councils went bust on their watch? Councils were lining up saying to the Government that they could not afford—
Let us talk about Birmingham, because the Opposition referenced the £3 million new homes bonus. The new recovery grant—£600 million of brand new money targeted at those councils with high deprivation and low tax bases—just for Birmingham is £39 million. That will start the repair work of rebuilding the foundations.
When we talk about fair funding and why it is needed, we will not do what the previous Government did, where they put party politics ahead of the national interest. Let me remind the Conservatives of what the previous Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Richmond and Northallerton (Rishi Sunak), said in Tunbridge Wells in 2022:
“We inherited a bunch of formulas from Labour that shoved all the funding into deprived urban areas and that needed to be undone. I started the work of undoing that.”
That is a record of shame. It is nothing to preach about. To right the wrongs of the past 14 years and finally get money where it is needed, this Government will work for public service, not party interest.
I call the Chair of the Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee.
I thank the Minister for outlining this much-needed funding uplift. I agree with him that councils up and down the country, regardless of their political persuasion, need the Government to support them, not to criticise and denigrate them, which is sadly what we have had in some cases over the past 14 years. He mentioned some of the authorities that still face those pressures, including Birmingham, Nottingham and Woking, which have already effectively faced bankruptcy. The Local Government Association has outlined that up to one in four councils is likely to require additional emergency support.
A Sky report has today outlined that families are stuck in temporary accommodation for an average of five and a half years. We should not be calling that “temporary accommodation.” Imagine spending the entirety of your school life in temporary accommodation because you do not have your own home. The funding that the Minister has announced for tackling homelessness is welcome, but it is a sticking plaster, if we are honest, because it does not give councils the tools to build social housing. Homelessness will end only if we build new homes, so what steps is the Minister taking to ensure that councils have those powers?
In the short term, the £18 billion boost to the homelessness prevention grant is a step in the right direction, but the Government must consider the unintended consequences. Local authorities are already reliant on that funding to plug gaps in temporary accommodation—many use up to 75% of it for that purpose—but the new rules mean that only 49% of the grant may be used in that way. How will that change not lead to a further reduction in funding for temporary accommodation, at a time when, as we all know, the system is broken?
I thank the Chair of the Select Committee for her question. We are all getting ready for Christmas and looking forward to time with our families and our own respite, but in the end it is hard to enjoy that moment given the prospect of just how many children in this country are in temporary accommodation. Some 159,000 children do not have a secure, affordable place to live and so are in temporary accommodation. In my own town, there are 500 such children. We do our best—we martial for the Christmas parties that charities put on—but it is no replacement for a secure family home.
There will be lots of differences in the exchanges that take place here, but we need to focus on why we are doing what we are doing. The reason we are building 1.5 million new homes is of course economic, and about decent, well-paid, working-class jobs—we talk a lot about that—but in the end it is about sorting out the housing crisis. If we sort out that crisis, we sort out the temporary accommodation crisis and the financial crisis in local government. If we sort out the crisis in adult social care, of course we sort out the financial crisis, but we will finally deliver on the promise of the state looking after the generation who gave so much. If we sort out the crisis in children’s social care, we finally deliver on the state promise to invest in the next generation.
Repairing the foundations is, of course, about financial foundations—that is important—but it is also about people and communities, and in the end that is what we are all here for.
I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
I refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, as I am a Member of Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole council. Local government was brought to its knees under the last Conservative Government, with funding slashed and responsibilities piled on its depleted and exhausted workforce. I thank the local government workforce and wish them a happy Christmas.
I and my local Liberal Democrat colleagues welcome the move to multi-year settlements—something we have long called for—and the funding announced today for homelessness prevention. I agree with the Deputy Prime Minister and the Minister that we must eliminate the use of B&Bs, especially for families at Christmas. I also welcome the announced consultation on changing the funding formula, as listening to our local leaders is absolutely crucial.
However, we remain really concerned about the removal of the rural services grant, which suggests that the Government do not understand the nature of rural communities, including the difficulties of providing services over sometimes vast areas, subsidising public transport, and identifying hidden poverty, often among older populations—that costs an awful lot.
On special educational needs, it is deeply worrying that councils—particularly those that may literally run out of money, such as Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole council—still have no idea about what will happen to the statutory override. How are they supposed to set their budgets in February without that certainty? Can the Minister confirm that no council will be forced to join the Safety Valve scheme, for example, which would put at risk the support provided to some of the most vulnerable children?
As we go into winter, the impact on social care is of the greatest concern. Dorset council shared with me a letter sent to the Dorset Care Association in which the director of adult social care states:
“We simply will not have the resources to meet the national insurance contributions for providers.”
Indeed, the Minister told me, in response to a written question, that only direct national insurance costs would be covered. What does he say to providers and to staff in charities such as Diversability, who fear for their jobs this Christmas?
It is important that we have a debate on local government finance based on the numbers. I have said already that, when taking into account council tax, no council will see a reduction in its core spending power. That means that before the final settlement, and not including extended producer responsibility and live parts of the grant, the hon. Lady’s own council will see an increase of at least 5.8%. We are covering the national insurance contributions made there, and in addition we are funding an extra £880 million through the social care grant. We have heard representations through the sector.
We are not saying that all this will fix everything today—it cannot. We are less than six months into the new Government and we have 14 years to reconcile. I hope the hon. Lady does not mind, but I remind her that a number of those 14 years were under the coalition Government. What we missed then and are trying to make up for now is that if we take away community and preventative services, which we all know make a big difference—not just in cost but in outcomes—we end up paying more and more at the back end, but for worse outcomes. The cruelty is that the Liberal Democrats’ moment in government, which I accept was short, was the time to invest in reform and prevention. That time was not taken and that opportunity was missed, and 14 years later we are reconciling that and fixing the system from the ground up. We will do that.
I welcome this commitment to local government and recognise that the Minister has a big job to do in addressing the challenges that have arisen because of the last 14 years—not least in local government audit. I welcome what seems to be a commitment to embracing the Redmond review. Will he give more detail about what will replace the Office for Local Government?
Most in the sector would agree that Oflog—the Office for Local Government—had a vague remit that was an expensive way of gathering data. In the end, if it were to be developed, we could risk mission creep whereby its remit would verge into the areas that local authorities so disliked about the former Audit Commission. We are trying to get the right balance between the early warning system that enables us to see which individual councils are under stress, and, importantly, noting any developing systemic threats or themes for which central Government might have to take much earlier action. We want to rebuild that early warning system.
However, we are absolutely clear that we are not replacing the Audit Commission. For one, it was hugely expensive, and we need to ensure that any money goes to the frontline of local public services. Honestly, councils do not need inspectors going in to mark their homework when they should be trusted to get on and do the job well. People understand what the National Audit Office is, so we hope that they will understand and see the benefit of a local audit office, and that it will be embraced by the sector.
Will the Minister set out how he expects local authorities such as mine in Buckinghamshire to absorb with such little notice multi-million pound impacts from significant changes to the social care funding formula, and the effects of the NICs rises on commissioned services and suppliers, particularly charities such as Mind, which will be greatly affected by the changes?
Again, the hon. Lady’s council will see a core spending power increase of 5%, and that is only this part of the settlement—it does not include extended producer responsibility or billions of pounds in other grants that will come. This is a genuine attempt to make sure we give councils the funding that is needed, and I think we have succeeded in a very difficult context, but it is a matter of fact that some councils’ local tax bases are stronger, for reasons that go back many years and, in some cases, many centuries. That is not because of the efforts of the local council—it is what it is—and for too long, councils in deprived communities with lower tax bases have done everything that has been asked of them. They have raised council tax to the maximum, so local communities are paying more and more, but increasingly they are getting less and less. They are seeing their neighbourhood services diminish.
There are tough choices, and we do not shy away from that. We have been very honest in the oral statement about the trade-offs that have had to be made, but the increase of 5% in the core spending power of the hon. Lady’s council will help deal with the issues she has raised.
I would prefer to see the wise men and women on Labour’s Front Bench than Ebenezer Scrooge and Jacob Marley on the Conservative Front Bench. Does the Minister agree that the statement he has made today is in stark contrast to the legacy left by the Conservative party, which left local government in dire straits?
That is the point: the previous Government knew just how bad the situation was, but they put off the tough decisions. For example, how many times in 14 years did the previous Government promise that they would go back to multi-year settlements so that councils knew where they were, but failed to do so? How many times did the previous Government say that they would bring in a fair funding review, but failed to do so? How many times did the previous Government say that they would deal with the audit backlog? They did not just fail to do that; the backlog got worse. If we had not taken action, it would have been 1,000 sets of audited accounts, and that was not due to covid, because those accounts went back to 2015. That failure was systemic, and it was all on the watch on the previous Government. What that meant in practice was £100 billion of public money that they could not account for, so they did not really know the state of the sector, because they completely gave up on monitoring it.
Following on from the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Joy Morrissey) and the Minister’s answer, can I assure him that there are areas of deprivation in rural communities such as Buckinghamshire? Further to the point made by the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (David Simmonds), while the devil is in the detail, it already looks from the figures like Buckinghamshire will take a multimillion-pound hit from the loss of various grants. Can the Minister give an assurance that rural communities will be treated equally to urban ones, and will not be left behind?
Either the hon. Gentleman does not know the status of the rural services delivery grant, or he is trying to mislead the House. A large share of large rural authorities should have got the rural services delivery grant but did not, because that grant was not about rural services. When the previous Prime Minister stood up in Tunbridge Wells and said that the Government had taken money from deprived communities and moved it across, he did not mean that it was for all communities; it was for party politics. So where were Conservative Members then when it came to those rural communities that did not get the grant? I did not hear anybody standing up and asking for their rural community to get the money for those services that Conservative Members are now trying to champion. We will absolutely make sure that deprivation and need are part of the funding reforms that are coming, but we will also make sure that we genuinely take into account the cost of delivering services in rural areas. The sector needs a fair funding review, and we are determined to deliver one.
I welcome the Minister’s statement, particularly the additional funding to tackle homelessness and provide early help and support for families. I also welcome the principle that resources should be directed according to need. However, as the Minister knows, the elephant in the room of local government finance is that the statutory override for deficits related to special educational needs and disabilities is due to come to an end in March 2026. Councils will be setting their budgets in the new year through to the end of March 2026, and if there is no plan to address the SEND deficits, many councils will be issuing section 114 notices. Councils urgently need certainty at this point, so what discussions are taking place with local authorities about the statutory override, and when will they have the certainty they need?
I agree about the importance and significance of the statutory override—that is felt very acutely in the Department and in the sector. We are consulting now on a number of matters, including the statutory override, and we are in constant dialogue with the Treasury about how we deal with that in the long term. In the end, this is another example of the legacy we have inherited. We are taking very difficult decisions to reconcile, reform and repair the system—decisions that should have been taken earlier but were not. That issue is very much on our agenda.
I call Lee Dillon, a member of the Select Committee.
I refer Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests: I am a member of West Berkshire council. Last Christmas, I was the leader of that council, and I can honestly say to the Minister that I would much rather receive in my inbox the settlement proposed by the Government than what I received from the Conservative Government.
In his statement, the Minister talked about fixing the foundations. I welcome the £3.7 billion for social care, but does he agree that, with councils spending up to two thirds on their budgets on adult and children’s social care, social care needs full-scale reform if we are to fix the foundations? Will he support the Liberal Democrats’ calls for a commission to undertake that piece of work?
To be honest, although I absolutely agree that we need reform, I believe the urgency is today. Think about the number of older people who would have been entitled to adult social care in 2010 who now do not even get support from the local authority, because eligibility has changed in so many areas. There is a crisis, and that crisis is not just being felt in the homes of all the people who have given to this country and deserve better; it is being felt in the acute sector and in the health service, where we are paying far more at the back end because community preventative services are not in place. We are working with the Cabinet Office and the Treasury to say, “Let’s learn as we go” on some of this, in terms of innovation and pilots where we can invest to save—invest in those community preventative services up front, to try to better reduce demand. Of course, it is about money, but in the end it is about the service we provide. I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s comments about the settlement in the round.
I refer Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests as a councillor in Telford and Wrekin, as well as an honorary vice-president of the Local Government Association.
The Government’s first step to restore funding for local government after a very difficult 14 years is welcome, but council areas such as mine have fast-growing populations, provide outstanding services and provide leadership to the sector. On all three of those counts, until this point, that has not been reflected in the settlement that Telford and Wrekin council has received. Will this Government change that? I also gently remind the House that when I was chair of the Local Government Association over the past couple of years, there was not a single Conservative councillor who thought the settlement or the last Government’s approach to it was fair or proportionate.
I am pleased to say that this year, core spending power in my hon. Friend’s area will increase by 8.1%, and again, that does not take into account the billions of pounds that will follow. That reflects the service demand pressures, but also the reality of the local tax bases in that area. Telford, like many areas, does a very good job of providing local public services, but the council itself recognises that the neighbourhood services that most people see and feel—those that make a difference to quality of life—have been retreated on because of the need to fund targeted services, and social care in particular. We are absolutely determined to rebuild adult and children’s social care and sort out the housing crisis, but we also want people to live in good places that people are proud of, which requires those neighbourhood services to be rebuilt. It will take time to do that, but our commitment to Telford and the rest of the country is that we are absolutely determined to do so.
The core spending power tables that the Government have published today show that total Government funding for South Staffordshire is down by 7.5%. Just what do the Government have against council tax payers in South Staffordshire?
Given the hon. Gentleman’s background, I am surprised that he is displaying such ignorance of council finance. The Government’s role in local government finance is to be an equaliser. As he knows, everywhere has the ability to raise tax locally through council tax and business rates, but he also knows that some areas have the ability to raise far more than others because of their tax base. It is the job of the Government to equalise—to make sure that when it comes to demand for services, everywhere gets the service provision it needs. That requires the Government to provide more funding in some places to reconcile that lower tax base, so that everyone gets the services they are entitled to. The presentation that the hon. Gentleman has offered shows either ignorance or politics, but I think the country deserves better.
I very much welcome today’s statement and the extra funding that has been announced. I commend the Minister for repeatedly reminding the Conservative party of 14 years of austerity, during which local government saw bigger cuts to its budgets than any other part of the public sector. Of course, the Lib Dems were a party to the coalition Government when the worst of those cuts were made.
May I ask my hon. Friend two questions? First, when he comes to consider more fundamental reforms—which we accept will not be in place for another year—will he look at the council tax system as a whole? It is an unfair and regressive system that takes a disproportionate amount of money from the poorest people in the poorest houses. Secondly, can he confirm that the local audit office will be a stand-alone body that looks at public sector audit, not an add-on to the audit, reporting and governance authority—a previous proposal—which was basically to be a private sector body that looked at local government as an afterthought?
I thank the former Chair of the Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee for that question. I can confirm that the core spending power of that element in this settlement for Sheffield will be 8.5%, which is before the additional funds that will follow. Sheffield gets a good settlement from this, but we recognise that it is in a context of growing demand, so we hope councils see that we are meeting them on the challenge they face.
On whether we will review council tax, I think every Government recognise that there are huge limitations with council tax, and also huge geographical variations. It is regressive, which is the nature of a tax based on property values rather than the income of the people in them. However, council tax is understood, its collection rates are high and it is really the foundation—although not the total, as my hon. Friend knows—of the funding of council services. The urgent issue we need to face is that previous Governments moved away from their role as the equaliser in the system. Whereas the revenue support grant used to be in place to support councils by reconciling lower tax bases, recent Governments have been missing in action. We are saying to councils of all political stripes, across every type of authority and every part of the country, that we will reconcile that and work with them to equalise the situation.
On the local audit office, we are absolutely determined that this will not be a return to the Audit Commission. We are trying to do a number of things. First, we want to rebuild the early warning system to make sure that we see any systemic problems developing in the system. However, we also recognise that the cost of audit has increased by 150%, which is a direct cost to taxpayers, and that there is fragmentation in the market, and we need to look at the fall-back position as opposed to auditor supply. There is quite a lot that we need to deal with, but this is very much about the provision of audit and making sure the early warning system is rebuilt; it is certainly not a blow to the inspection regime.
I know the Minister wants to give thorough responses, but I have absolute confidence that he can do that with fewer words.
I welcome the Government’s statement and their attention to local government finances. Delivering services in large, dispersed rural areas such as mine in South Devon is challenging and costly. What plans does the Minister have to ensure that rural local authorities will be allocated additional funding to manage the extra cost of delivering services across areas such as mine?
That is exactly the point of moving to a fairer funding formula—and we will of course consult on the component parts making that up. We have to take this in the round—I genuinely want any part of the country and any type of local authority to be able to interrogate the system, and even if they disagree with the quantum—there will always be arguments that—to be able to say that the rationale and the evidence base hold. It is a matter of accepted fact that there is a premium on the cost of rural service delivery, just because of the travelling involved. For example, for a home care worker, there is the travel time between appointments and all the rest of it. However, it is probably also accepted that the evidence base is not as robust and strong as it needs to be, so we want to make sure through this process that we take into account the need for that strong and robust evidence base.
Fourteen years of Tory austerity and fiscal mismanagement have halved the central Government funding for Newcastle city council, sucked the blood vampire-like from our local economy, and left local businesses and families drowning in uncertainty, so I welcome this increased funding and the specific commitments on housing and social care. However, can the Minister reassure me that there is further light at the end of the tunnel, because this Government’s work on reforming public services, local funding, business rates and innovation investment will mean that the people of Newcastle and the north-east will have the power and the resources to build the public services and the economy that we choose?
That is completely right. By the way, I give credit to council officials, frontline workers and councillors, because it is local government that has led on innovation and reform and that has bound together local communities in very difficult times—and, I would say, with other parts of the system too often working against the local interest, not with it. We need to find a way of sending that message not to local government, because I think it is understood there, but to the wider system. We need to say that when we make such public sector investment in Newcastle and other places, we expect the whole system to rally around a single plan for the place and its people. We expect local government to be respected as the local leader—the convenor of place—that can hold the ring to make sure there is not duplication or contradictions and that the money delivers the right outcomes for local people. We are absolutely committed to that.
Large rural counties such as Norfolk face higher costs in delivering their services, and the Government’s jobs tax adds £14 million to the pressures that Norfolk county council is facing. Can the Minister clarify whether the NICs funding he referred to in his statement, which will go to Norfolk county council and other councils, will cover the cost of social care commissioned services?
First, I pay tribute to the leaders in both Norfolk and Suffolk for the conversations we are having, particularly on devolution. We look forward to, I hope, making progress on that in the near future, because that is where the real prize is. We can sort out the foundations of council funding and reorganise public services to get efficiencies, but in the end we need to see devolution. We need to see power coming out of this place and being given to local communities. The best way to achieve that is through a mayoral strategic authority working hand in glove with local authorities.
On the question about NICs, we have provided over £500 million for the costs of employers’ national insurance contributions and we are providing additional money through the social care grant, and it is for councils to decide how best to spend that money.
I welcome the Minister’s statement and the fact that this Government are starting to fix the damage done by more than a decade of disastrous settlements for local government. In my constituency, that means increases of more than 5% for each local authority in core spending power, but does the Minister agree that as important, if not more important, is the consultation on long-term proposals to fundamentally improve the way that local government is funded through a fairer system?
That is exactly right. We have approached this year as very much a recovery operation. We could see that councils were in the ditch and needed to be pulled out and taken home, and that is exactly what this one-year settlement will do. However, what they need and deserve is a multi-year settlement that gives long-term security and stability, and for that long-term settlement not to be the continuation of a broken system, but a system that has been rewired and put right. With the fair funding review, the multi-year settlement and the reform agenda, putting prevention at the heart of public services, we will begin to achieve the end to which my hon. Friend rightly points.
We have heard a lot from colleagues about the delivery of rural services. Harrogate and Knaresborough was one of the areas that saw local government reorganisation, and we are now geographically the largest council in England. So what reassurances will there be on making sure that rural services can be provided? One of the biggest barriers the council faces is being able to deliver home to school transport, the cost of which has gone from £5 million just a few years ago to what is expected to be over £25 million this year.
I have covered the rural services element before, so I will home in on the home to school transport issue, which I know is a huge issue in many county council areas, where children are carried further away to get to schools. I will be honest and say that some of that is absolutely required, and has always been required, but quite a lot of it is the result of a broken system in which education is not being provided in local communities and parents have been forced to move further out. The plan we have to rebuild education and to invest in schools, some of it funded through impositions on private schools to get that money into the state sector, is about rebuilding local education provision so that parents have the choice and the confidence to go to the state school nearest to their home. That will have an impact on council budgets for home to school transport.
After eight years of Conservative rule in Stoke-on-Trent, the council was taken to the brink of bankruptcy, and the Minister will be well aware of the extraordinary financial support that we have received and about which we are having additional conversations. How will the recovery fund interact with authorities in receipt of extraordinary financial support? May I also put on record the thanks of the city to Councillor Alastair Watson and Jon Rouse, the chief executive, for the work they have done to stabilise council finances in difficult times?
I thank my hon. Friend for that question, and I join him in paying tribute to the council officers and council leadership in Stoke-on-Trent. As a direct cash payment—the down payment I mentioned earlier—Stoke-on-Trent council will get £8.7 million, and its core spending power will increase by 8.6% just in this round, but that may well over 10% by the time the full allocations come through. That is part of the rebuilding process, and as I have said, it reflects the fact that we cannot punish councils because of their inherited historical tax base. We must make sure that the Government step up to their role to equalise the system so that everyone has fair access to public services.
I thank the Minister for his statement. I recognise and accept the importance of proper funding for areas of high deprivation, but it is important to acknowledge that councils with low deprivation face rising demand for their services. In my constituency of Wokingham, children with special educational needs and disabilities are suffering from this lack of investment. They are deprived, too, but in ways that are not being measured, so their council is not getting the crucial funding to look after SEND services properly. We want Wokingham borough council to get on with the job of delivering more for local residents, so how will the Minister ensure that Wokingham receives what it needs?
I thank the hon. Member for coming to one of our surgeries to make representations on behalf of his council. I know that he cares about these issues. We need to be careful not to think that those who have received the recovery grant are the only places that have deprivation, because that is not the case. The recovery grant is very targeted and has two components: one is whether the area has a weaker tax base; the other is whether the area has significantly higher deprivation than other comparable areas. We are clear that we need to root out deprivation and need wherever they exist. The fair funding review is intended to take into account many different component parts, including the cost of rural service delivery, general overheads, premises costs, deprivation and the rest, so that, whatever the issue and whatever the context, councils have confidence that the funding is correct.
I thank the Minister and his team for listening to the voices of Portsmouth North and for the additional funding allocated to homelessness and rough sleeping, so that Portsmouth city council’s projected deficit can be addressed. It would be remiss of me not to thank the council workers, alongside Bev and all the volunteers at Helping Hands and other charities in the city. They have supported the growing number of people on our streets under the shameful Tory coalition’s reign of recklessness. Can the Minister confirm that after five months in government, this is just the start of additional support for our councils? Can he also clarify that, should the Lib Dem-run Portsmouth city council need further advice, his door is always open?
I congratulate my hon. Friend on her question to the Prime Minister earlier.
The council’s overall core spending power will increase by 7.8%. Putting Portsmouth to one side, whatever measures we take in general terms, we can never cast the net so wide and so thinly that we catch every council at the extreme ends. If we did, the net would never get to the depth needed. The door is open to any council that needs a conversation about their particular circumstances. Regardless of party politics, councils can have absolute confidence that we will deal with them professionally, appropriately and with the respect they need.
Members will know that if they are not here for the opening statements, they will not be called later in the statement.
I draw the House’s attention to my declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests as a county councillor in Oxfordshire. In my constituency and in my surgeries and correspondence, the frustration, desperation and anger of parents and children with special educational needs is constant and shocking. Their needs are not being met, and as the Minister has acknowledged, the funding shortfall for the high needs block is significant and has led to a deficit, which the Local Government Association estimates will be £3.6 billion at the end of this financial year. I very much welcome the Minister’s focus on this issue, as well as that of his colleagues in the Department for Education. Can he assure parents and children in my constituency that, under the multi-year settlement to which he has referred, the future needs of these children will be adequately met, and the needs of the council addressed, as we face those huge deficits?
Yes, I can confirm that we are providing, with the support of the Department for Education, new funding of £1 billion to support the high needs block in SEND for the reasons that the hon. Member says. We also know that money today is not the answer in the long term. We have to reform SEND provision in the mainstream, so that parents and pupils get the support that they need.
I welcome the money for homelessness in today’s statement. Evidence increasingly suggests that prevention works in homelessness. Calderdale is one of three local authorities working with Crisis to pilot a system of early prevention. In six months, that has already led to a 20% reduction in people using temporary accommodation. Will the Minister look at that work and commit to championing what works?
My hon. Friend makes a good point. Where councils such as Calderdale are doing well and excelling, they are working hand in glove with the local community and voluntary organisations to ensure they get the coverage to reach into communities. I applaud that work, and I hope that the 7.4% uplift in core spending power in this part of the settlement goes some way to supporting it.
I thank the Minister for a positive statement on the funding that is available. Government policy states that local government is the foundation of a good state, from bin collections to driving economic growth. It is paramount that that is done across the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. What discussions has the Minister had, or will he have with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland regarding the possibility of securing greater funding through the Barnett consequentials so that Northern Ireland can have the funding it needs to stimulate local, community and economic growth?
I probably have to be a bit careful not to stray into that, given that this is a statement about councils in England, but the premise of the hon. Member’s question about adequate funding for local public services is correct. Let us remember that councils deliver more than 800 different services to local communities in England. They employ more than a million people, many of whom will be local people of the community. Councils are a huge power and force for good, and I will certainly ensure that the representation he has made is passed on to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.
Massive cuts to local government services by the previous Conservative Government have seen rough sleeping more than double and families in temporary accommodation regularly forced to move from hotel to hotel with their belongings in black sacks. I welcome the record £14.7 million in homelessness funding that the Minister’s Department has awarded to Ealing council. That is an increase of almost £4 million. Can the Minister outline how that will help those people sleeping out in West Ealing and in Southall town centre tonight? How will it end the use of hotels and bed and breakfasts for families in Ealing Southall?
That is precisely why we have provided an extra £233 million to meet the demand. We do not take any pleasure or pride in that, actually. It is a sign of a system that is not working that we must keep on providing more and more money for temporary accommodation, to the benefit of hotel owners and not to the benefit of the people who need a safe, secure and affordable home. This funding has to be part of a wider plan. That is why the 1.5 million new homes are so important. If we do not provide those safe, affordable homes for people, we will always be in this cycle of trying to play catch up, and that is not sustainable.
May I, too, welcome the multi-year certainty given by the statement today? As a former deputy leader of Milton Keynes council, I can say that it is the kind of certainty we ask for, rather than getting a letter—on Christmas Eve, usually—setting out what the funding might be, already halfway through our budget-setting process. I also welcome the fact that Milton Keynes is getting more than £7 million to prevent homelessness. I welcome the fact that there will be transparency, but can the Minister give reassurances to Milton Keynes that with the loss of the new homes bonus, additional funding will be given to Milton Keynes to make up for that difference?
I thank my hon. Friend for the advocacy that she shows for Milton Keynes and for the local authority. Overall core spending power in Milton Keynes will increase by 6.1%, and that is only part of the settlement—the council can easily expect that to increase in its final settlement. It shows that the Government are working in partnership with the council to deal with the issues that she raises.
I welcome the extra funding going in to tackle homelessness, especially the £15 million allocated to Croydon council. After 14 years of Tory Members turning their backs on local councils, local councillors and the communities they serve, does the Minister agree that there is a cost to doing nothing when it comes to reforming local government funding? Can he outline what kind of support might be available to councils still carrying large amounts of debt?
There is a legitimate question to ask the previous Government about why on earth some councils were allowed to borrow disproportionately to their revenue. In the end, some councils have found themselves on the wrong side of that. When we were designing the recovery grant, that was about deprivation and low tax bases, and dealing with the quantum was about directing money to particular services, but I will be honest: there will always be councils—Croydon will be one of them—which, because of their unique situations, are just outside that general allocation. We are ready to have one-to-one support conversations where needed.
Madam Deputy Speaker, let me wish you a lovely Christmas break. [Hon. Members: “Ah!”] Don’t put me off. I welcome the Minister’s statement. As someone who worked for a homeless charity in Harlow, I welcome the additional at least £1.2 million of funding to support homelessness and rough sleeping in Harlow as well as the additional £1.6 million of funding to neighbouring districts, which partly overlap between me and the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Dr Hudson). That is coupled with multi-year funding for councils, for which I achieved cross-party support in the Harlow district council chamber. Does the Minister agree that that shows a clear desire by the Government to support the most vulnerable people in my constituency, but that that must come with joined-up thinking on the planned 1.5 million new homes and investment in our NHS?
That was a cute way to get a long question in—merry Christmas, Madam Deputy Speaker.
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I pay tribute to the work that he does to represent the people of Harlow as well as the local authority. We stand ready to work on those long-term funding settlement issues to ensure that we genuinely rebuild the foundations.
I commend the Minister for his work in bringing forward the settlement to secure a fair deal for the sector, but, as many hon. Members have alluded to, the elephant in the room is temporary housing. That is in large part due to decisions taken by the last Conservative Government to freeze the housing benefit subsidy at 2011 levels and cap the local housing allowance at a far lower level than local housing tends to cost, with the end result being that local government is subsidising central Government’s welfare bill to an astounding extent, with two thirds of the council tax in my local area going towards paying that bill. As an advocate for the sector, will the Minister meet with counterparts in the relevant Departments to try to lift that cap, so that people are housed at a rate that is cheaper both financially and socially?
We come back again to the broken housing market. The need to build 1.5 million new homes is there, but—let us be clear—they have to be the right homes in the right places for the need in the local area. That means not only more social homes but council provision. We continue to see a cycle—we have all seen today’s inflation figures, which are driven by private rent—in which the taxpayer pays more and more for accommodation that is often substandard and does not even meet the decent homes standard, with no benefit to the taxpayer. We have got to rebuild council housing and social housing and make it fit for purpose and affordable.
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and merry Christmas—I won’t get any longer for saying that.
I thank the Minister for his statement and welcome the announcements made today. In 2010, the last year of the previous Labour Government, St Helens borough council received £127 million in central Government funding. Under the Conservatives, that was cut to just £13 million a year. Services cannot be run on thin air and, despite the best efforts of council staff and Labour councillors, cuts have had consequences. Will the Minister assure me and my constituents that under this Government we will get the funding for the essential services that we need?
That is exactly the reason core spending power in St Helens will increase by 8.6% just through these measures. Given the type of council, we could easily expect that to top 10%. That is our down payment to say, “We need time to prepare the multi-year settlement and we need to do the fair funding review, but we know that councils cannot wait for that, given the last decade,” as my hon. Friend described.
The last question goes to the ever-patient Mark Ferguson.
Thank you for squeezing me in, Madam Deputy Speaker. I refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. I was glad to hear my hon. Friend refer to the unfair funding formula championed by the previous Prime Minister, laser targeted as it was at reducing support to communities like mine. There are parts of Gateshead where the average life expectancy for a man is 73 years, yet the last Government focused wholeheartedly on reducing support to areas of deprivation like that. I welcome the almost £2 million that Gateshead council is receiving to tackle homelessness this year on top of its previous allocation, but given that one of the shameful legacies of the last Government is crumbling infrastructure in communities like mine, what efforts will be made to support councils like mine with the infrastructure they need?
In the end, some of it is about the quantum of funding, and some of it is about freedom of funding. Taking away the ringfencing and reporting is absolutely critical to that. Gateshead, and every other council, has our absolute commitment.
Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, may I say thank you to the millions of public sector workers, council officials and, importantly, councillors for the work that they do in providing good public services every year, day in, day out? May I wish everyone a merry Christmas and a happy settlement day?
(1 week, 1 day ago)
Commons ChamberWith permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to make a statement on winter preparedness. Before I begin, I want to say a very special thank you to all the staff who will be keeping our NHS going over the Christmas holidays and into the new year. When I was a manager in the NHS, I worked on winter planning, so, if I may, I will say an additional thank you to all the people who are often unseen: the managers and admin staff who also keep the system going. I know how hard it is for people to work in the system with the challenges that winter can bring through increased demand and higher rates of infection.
There are things that we cannot predict. Storms Bert and Darragh have added pressure, and we might have a cold snap. I know that many people like a winter cold snap of snow and ice, but it is not something that the NHS ever wants to see. The NHS has excellent people who have done this before and, unlike last year, thanks to the new Government, many of them will not be on strike. While we cannot control the weather, we can plan, prepare and pull together, so today I want to update colleagues with the current picture before moving on to the things that we are doing.
NHS England and the UK Health Security Agency will publish the latest statistics tomorrow morning as usual, but we do know that levels of seasonal illness are high. The most recent figures show that last week there was a 350% increase in flu cases compared with the same week last year, but that is comparable to levels we saw two years ago. Norovirus cases are high, but covid rates are low, and although rates of RSV—respiratory syncytial virus—have been high, we expect them to start coming down over the next few weeks.
I want to make it clear that the current rates for both bed occupancy and ambulance delays are unacceptably high. I will shortly come to measures about how we are dealing with that capacity.
I will not rehearse the Darzi investigation and his findings, except on one thing. I remind the House that he found “a perpetual bed crisis”, particularly during peak periods like winter cold snaps. That means that every winter our staff have been wasting precious time solving process problems, ringing round wards to find beds and desperately trying to hold the system together. We can see that in the figures.
On an average evening in 2009, a patient would have been 39th in the queue when they arrived at a typical accident and emergency department. In 2024, they are 100th. The four-hour A&E standard has not been met for nearly a decade and ambulance response times have not been consistently achieved since their introduction in 2017. In November, the average ambulance response time stood at 42 minutes, which is more than double the NHS constitutional standard. A third of the 2.3 million people who attended A&E last month waited more than four hours, and one in 10 of those people—more than 150,000—waited for more than 12 hours.
Those life and death delays are the result of deep structural issues in the NHS that cannot be fixed overnight. But this winter, NHS staff will be on the frontline, not the picket line, because we took a different approach on how to work with staff and the unions. To resolve the resident doctors’ dispute, we spoke to them on day one, we met them in week one, and by week four we had negotiated a deal to end their strikes. That is why, for the first time in three years, the Government are fully focused on winter and not on planning for strikes.
This is what we are doing. First, the NHS is managing extra demand by strengthening same-day emergency care and offering more falls services for older people, with upgraded 24-hour live data centres. Secondly, we are continuing to support systems that are struggling with direct intervention through the NHS urgent and emergency care tiering programme.
Thirdly, the Secretary of State is chairing weekly meetings with me and senior leaders to ensure that we are managing pressures across the entire system. Last week, he specially convened with trusts and told them to prioritise patient safety by focusing on key metrics, including improving emergency ambulance response times, addressing handover delays and tackling the longest waits in A&E. We have made it crystal clear that we do not want trusts to prioritise patients who can be seen and discharged more quickly over those with the greatest clinical need, because this Government will always prioritise people, not performance. This morning, the NHS published a letter outlining how it is prioritising patient safety.
Fourthly, I am taking steps to ensure that we get a clear picture of what is happening on the ground. I recently visited Newham hospital’s A&E, Bristol Southmead hospital and the head offices of NHS England to see the aforementioned operational control centre, where it receives data in real time and responds to problems as they emerge. Fifthly, we launched a national communication campaign in the autumn to encourage people across the country to take their winter vaccines, with a particular focus on people who are less likely to come forward.
That last point is essential, because the best and easiest way to keep people out of hospital this Christmas is to encourage them to come forward and get vaccinated. Last year, people who received a covid vaccine were half as likely to be admitted to hospital than those who did not. So far, we have delivered over 17 million flu jabs and 9.5 million covid jabs, and we have introduced the first ever public vaccination campaign for RSV, with over a million and counting vaccinations delivered to protect young babies and the elderly. In total, we have delivered nearly 28 million vaccinations for this winter, and I thank every person who has come forward to protect themselves and the vulnerable.
Now, I would like to speak directly to anyone who has not yet been vaccinated. No one wants to be separated from their family and stuck in hospital this Christmas, and there is a real risk that people may inadvertently take flu home to loved ones this year. Please protect yourself, your family and the NHS, and book that appointment today, because tomorrow is the last day you can book a vaccine through the NHS app or website, although after tomorrow there will be local solutions.
While we tackle winter pressures in the short term, we are fixing the foundations of our NHS with long-term reform. Two weeks ago, the Prime Minister spoke to the nation about our plan for change, and set out our ambitions for the health service over this Parliament. We will get a grip on waiting lists and return to 92% of patients waiting no longer than 18 weeks from referral to treatment by the end of this Parliament. We are also taking action on social care, introducing the largest increase in the carer’s allowance weekly earnings limit since 1976. We will ensure that carer’s allowance meets its objectives, while reviewing unpaid carer’s leave and looking at the benefits of introducing paid carer’s leave.
We will publish an improved better care fund framework, using £9 billion of funding to provide better, more integrated health and social care for patients and people who draw on care. We are helping disabled people on low incomes adapt their homes through the disabled facilities grant. The Employment Rights Bill is already in Committee, laying the foundations for the first ever pay agreement for care workers as a first step towards building consensus on the long-term reform needed to create a national care service. By the end of our first year in government, we will deliver an extra 2 million operations, scans and appointments through innovation, investment in additional capacity and productivity gains.
We are sharing the best of the NHS with the rest of the NHS, with our Further Faster teams. These are teams of experts that are supporting 20 trusts with long waits to tackle waiting lists and increase productivity. They have been deployed to five trusts so far, and we are already seeing improvements—for example, in theatres. For this financial year, the Government have committed £12 billion more in everyday spending on health and social care than was planned by the last Government in the spring Budget.
We are giving our capital-starved NHS the funding it so badly lacked over the past decade, setting aside at least £1.5 billion next year, which will create additional capacity, including new surgical hubs and diagnostic scanners, and new beds across the estate. That will enable 30,000 additional procedures and over a million diagnostic tests as they come online. That is the difference that a Government of service make. We have also been clear that investment must come with reform. Lord Darzi has given us the diagnosis, and the cure can be found in shifting the NHS from treatment to prevention, hospital to home, and analogue to digital.
Harold Wilson once called himself an optimist who carries a raincoat. As someone who has worked in our NHS at this critical time, I am fully aware of the challenges we face and the effort required. I am making sure that we have a firm hold on problems in the short term, while we do the work of fixing the foundations of our NHS with long-term reform. Over the past 14 years, we have limped from one crisis to the next, improvising and making do with sticking plasters. It cannot go on. It is bad for patient care and it is totally demoralising for staff.
We are building a health service that is fit for the future, ready to face every winter with confidence, and we will publish our 10-year plan for health in the spring. Anyone who thinks that we cannot do it should remember: we have fixed the NHS before, and we will fix it again. The public rightly expect us to put an end to the annual winter crisis, and that is what we will deliver. I commend this statement to the House.
I call the shadow Secretary of State.
I am grateful to the Minister for early sight of her statement—as I have said before, it is typically courteous of her. I echo the gratitude that she expressed to those in our NHS, and also those in the social care workforce who will be working hard throughout the festive period. As she alluded to, the NHS is already feeling the pressure this winter. We know that winter is always tough for the NHS, irrespective of who is in government, but services are feeling the strain even earlier than in previous years. A tidal wave of flu infections has led to a 70% increase in hospital cases in just seven days, and the national medical director of the NHS has warned of a “quad-demic” of health emergencies as cases of covid, norovirus, RSV and winter flu are all on the rise.
Meanwhile, in October, the longest A&E waits of over 12 hours increased by over a quarter in just one month, reaching the third highest monthly figure since comparable records began in 2010. Of course, all that has come before the cold weather really hits and before more vulnerable pensioners are left in freezing homes, unable to put the heating on after the winter fuel payment was scrapped for a large number. What assessment has the Minister and the Department made of the potential impact of that on hospital admissions this winter?
In government, we recognised that the NHS faces unique challenges in winter. We also recognised, as I know the Minister does from our previous discussions, the importance of flow in the NHS, with all parts of the system working together. That is why last year we provided £200 million to boost NHS resilience specifically during the peak winter months, which was accompanied by £40 million to bolster social care capacity and improve discharges from hospital. That followed the £1 billion announced earlier that year to boost capacity by delivering 5,000 additional beds, 800 new ambulances and 10,000 virtual ward places.
The Secretary of State himself has admitted that there will almost certainly be a winter crisis. There have been warnings from the Royal College of Emergency Medicine, the Royal College of Nursing and directors at NHS England. Yet in today’s statement, in contrast to the steps we took, we heard a lot about data, meetings and co-ordination, but very little in concrete terms to increase capacity specifically over the winter period. That will give scant reassurance to those working in the system or patients needing the system. In fact, earlier this year, the Secretary of State suggested that there would not be any specific new funding for the NHS to cope with winter pressures.
The Minister will know that I have tabled a number of written questions in recent days, met in many cases by what seems to be the standard DHSC response for named day questions of a holding answer. As the pressure continues to grow, I have a number of specific questions for the Minister while she is at the Dispatch Box. Will the NHS receive more resources specifically to increase bed and A&E capacity this winter? Are there enough hospital beds and ambulances for this winter, or is she taking steps to increase them? As of the 1st of the month, how many people who were medically fit to be discharged had not been, for a variety of other reasons?
I am grateful for the update that the Minister provided on winter vaccinations. What assessment has she made of the supply of the flu vaccine? There are some suggestions that pharmacies and others have run out and are waiting for more deliveries. How many additional 111 and 999 call handlers have been recruited specifically for this winter?
We talked briefly about the need for the system to work as a whole. In that context, what is the impact of national insurance contributions on hospices, social care and GPs? The Secretary of State told the Health and Social Care Committee this morning that hospices would get an update from him before Christmas, but at Prime Minister’s questions in response to the Leader of the Opposition, the Prime Minister appeared to say that it will be after Christmas. Can the Minister clarify that for the House, because it is an important point?
Finally, what meetings has the Secretary of State personally had with Julian Redhead and Sarah-Jane Marsh, the NHS winter leads, and when was the first of those meetings specifically on this subject? I am very happy for him to write to me if that is easier, given the complexity.
As seasonal flu piles yet more pressure on NHS systems, it is more important than ever that it gets the resources and support that it needs. There are many promises of reform, but the NHS needs an immediate capacity boost in beds over winter. So far, the Government have kicked reform into the long grass in favour of yet more consultation, and their preparations for winter have lacked the urgency and focus that patients and NHS staff demand. In government, the Conservatives always put extra support in place to keep the NHS going through the tough winter period, boosting capacity and increasing support. This Government need to get a grip and do the same.
I will do my best to address that range of questions. First, as even a stopped clock is right once—[Interruption.] Yes, twice. On that basis, I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. On correspondence and answers to parliamentary questions, again, the situation we inherited is not satisfactory. I apologise to all Members who are waiting for correspondence—it is something we are taking a grip of. We want to respond positively to questions. The Conservatives did not; we will make sure that starts to happen.
On capacity in the system, again, I remind Members that we came into office in July, which is one quarter of the way through the planning and financial year. We very rapidly looked at the plans that were baked in by the previous Government—I appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman was in the Ministry of Justice at the time, not the Health and Social Care Department—to see whether they were fit for purpose. We wanted to make sure we brought stability to the system. There are, in fact, more beds currently available in the system than last year. If there is a need to increase capacity due to a likely cold snap, the system is absolutely ready to respond in its usual way. That is why we are meeting weekly.
On meetings with clinical and managerial colleagues at NHS England—who, frankly, I see more often than many members of my own family—I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that we started those meetings immediately. I would have to check the exact date, but it was certainly in the summer. I have had fortnightly meetings since September, which, as I said, we can move to monthly meetings, chaired by the Secretary of State. We began getting a grip from day one, knowing that winter was coming, which is why I am monitoring the situation weekly. It is also why we visited the operational centre, to understand in real time what is happening across every single system and every single trust—be that ambulance issues or problems at the front end and in A&E. The one question I do not directly have the answer to is what the daily figures are; I will try to get those figures to the right hon. Gentleman later.
We all know that waiting for discharge to assess is a massive problem. That is why, as I said in my statement, we want to take a grip of the better care fund, to ensure it works better and to stabilise the social care system. I am not particularly versed in issues on supply, so I apologise if that is wrong. We will certainly get back to the right hon. Gentleman on that matter, because we want people to be taking the vaccinations where necessary.
I can confirm that we want an announcement on hospices before Christmas. On winter fuel and its impact, as Opposition Members know, we will continue to monitor the impact of all situations on individuals to ensure they are supported in the community. We urge people to make sure they access pension credit. [Interruption.] I have just addressed that, but if I have missed anything, I will come back to it.
Despite York’s new emergency department, a consultant has described to me the situation in emergency medicine, where patients are waiting for days to be discharged and 50 patients are waiting to be placed on wards. We know we have inherited a broken NHS. Will the Minister say what she is doing first to enable primary care to pull more patients out of emergency medicine, in order to see people in the community, and secondly to invest in social care, which will clearly address some of the backlog and the logjam in patient flows?
My hon. Friend’s comments reinforce how much pressure, we understand, is front facing. A&E is demonstrative of the overall pressure in the system, not just at discharge but, as she rightly says, in primary care. We took action in the summer to improve primary care, increasing the number of GPs available in the system. It is absolutely critical that primary care community services are integral to winter planning at a local level. That is what we expect from every single system. We will continue to monitor that over the winter period and into the spring. If those services are not involved in planning for any particular systems, enabling them to monitor the surge and flow of people, we very much want to understand how that is working.
I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
I express my thanks and those of my Lib Dem colleagues to everyone working over the Christmas period to keep people healthy and safe. Preparedness for winter is absolutely critical for our health and care system, and a quick look at what happened last year shows us why. Ambulances across England collectively spent a total of 112 years waiting outside hospitals to hand patients over, and a quarter of a million people waited more than 12 hours to be seen. Every winter we are warned of a winter crisis. Under the Conservatives, crisis became the norm not just in winter but all year round.
This year is very concerning so far. A&Es have overflowed through spring, summer and autumn. At my local hospital trust, Shrewsbury and Telford, one in three ambulances have had to wait more than an hour to hand over patients, while patients with devastating cancer diagnoses have had to wait months for crucial scan results. Across England, more than 7 million people are on waiting lists. Meanwhile, I am afraid, we have not heard enough from the Government on fixing one of the root causes of this crisis, which is our broken social care system.
The scale of the crisis is demonstrated by the challenges facing ambulance services across the country at the moment. October—before the winter—was the third worst month ever for handover delays at West Midlands ambulance service, which covers my constituency. The equivalent of 130 ambulance crews are out of action, waiting every single day. Now these overstretched ambulance services are formally changing their advice to reflect the pressure they are under. At times of peak demand, even category 2 patients—those suffering a heart attack or a stroke—will be asked to make their own way to a hospital. People in North Shropshire have long had to put up with some of the worst ambulance waits in the country, and they have come to harm as a result. It may no longer be the case that they can rely on an ambulance arriving.
Action is urgently needed to prevent more preventable deaths this winter. I am sure the Minister shares my alarm that ambulances may not be reaching people facing life-threatening situations. If she does, will she commit today to the Government tackling the handover delays paralysing the ambulance service by accepting Liberal Democrat proposals to make a £1.5 billion fund to provide more staffed beds, and by agreeing to urgent cross-party talks to fix the crisis in social care?
I think I have addressed the Government’s plans on social care. The hon. Lady makes an excellent point on ambulance delays, which we know to be a problem, and particularly so in the west midlands. That is one of the things I have asked the system to look at particularly, so that the Government and hon. Members can better understand the particular problems in their particular systems. We know that ambulance and handover delays are a particular problem in some systems. We are making sure that clinical and managerial leads from NHS England are visiting those systems and that they are understanding in depth the process issues in some places, where they may not be adopting the best practice that can be learned from others.
We need to roll out best practice across the country. When the Secretary of State and I visited the operational centre of the London ambulance service, we sat in on some hear-and-treat calls; in dealing with people in mental health crises, in particular, some places are doing that better than others. Those are the sorts of examples we want to learn from. I absolutely hear what the hon. Lady says about the unacceptable delays in particular parts of the country. That is very much on our priority list.
I call a member of the Health and Social Care Committee.
Last week, I visited Basildon hospital, which is relied on by my constituents and people across Essex. Staff in the emergency department told me that they were operating under intense pressure all year round, and that it is indeed winter all year for them. That is due to a lack of beds, the terrible condition of parts of the estate and inadequate primary care services, meaning that people turn up at the ED when they should be somewhere more appropriate. What steps is the Minister taking to turn the page on 14 years of decline, and to ensure that Basildon and hospitals across the country have the resources and structures they need to better manage seasonal and year-round pressure?
My hon. Friend has already been a fantastic advocate for her local NHS services. Like the hon. Member for North Shropshire (Helen Morgan), my hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight the acute pressures all year round. We did not always have winter crises under the last Labour Government. It was tough; I worked during some of that time, and it did happen, but getting used to such levels of bed occupancy and pressure in the system all year round is a direct legacy of the Conservatives and what they did to the NHS, particularly with the Lansley reforms, and their refusal to take a grip of it. This matter of a summer crisis going into a winter crisis is a real problem. That is why we are committed to these short-term measures to stabilise and support the system over the winter. However, as I said in my statement, we will also look at medium and longer-term reform so that we do not have to revisit this scenario year on year.
Last Friday, I visited Sherwood Pharmacy in Abingdon. Ben, who owns it, told me that local pharmacies stand ready to help. In fact, they are more than keen to help, but there are two things that he needs from the Government. First, there needs to be a real push for GPs to refer people to pharmacies, in particular for vaccinations, so that we are not collecting patients in one already overstretched part of the system and they can do what they do best. Secondly, there needs to be a general plea to the public that they can go to their pharmacies for those things. I note that in her statement the Minister did not mention pharmacies once. Let us be honest, this question is not going to do it either. How do we ensure that the message—“Go to your pharmacy and get vaccinated, you can do it faster there”—gets out there this winter?
I thank the Chair of the Select Committee for her point. She is right that I did not mention pharmacies, which was an omission on my part. We are running an advertising campaign, “Think Pharmacy First”, to ensure people use pharmacies. She is absolutely right that they stand ready. I will visit mine over the next few days to make sure I am vaccinated. Their support, working with primary care, is critical. Again, in some places relationships are working well and pharmacies support people in the community—that is apparent in the statistics. We are absolutely committed to ensuring that that works better, as part of our long-term reforms.
Last week, Calderdale and Huddersfield NHS foundation trust’s bed occupancy was at 99.6%. Some 20.1% of those beds, because of the failure of social healthcare and community care, were taken up by people who could be treated elsewhere. All I want for Christmas is a reassurance that, next Christmas and next winter, social care will be on a more secure footing.
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight those shocking levels of bed occupancy. As I said earlier, running consistently at that high level of occupancy is something we should never have got used to. That discharge rate is demoralising for staff, very bad for patients and a sign of the pressure in the system. We absolutely must ensure the system is incentivised and works properly to make our hospital-to-community commitment, one of our three shifts, operate in practice. People do not want to be in hospital when they do not need to be and it is not the best place for them to be. We will be saying more about that in the new year.
We hear today about a massive backlog at the Department for Work and Pensions in processing pension credit and winter fuel payment claims. Bearing in mind that cold homes increase winter deaths and hospital admissions, and that we are debating winter preparedness today, what discussions has the Minister had with the DWP to ensure that those in my constituency who are waiting for their winter fuel payments will receive them before the Christmas break? Will she commit to publishing a full impact assessment of that decision on the NHS?
I thank the right hon. Lady for her question. We have discussed this issue a number of times in this place. We absolutely understand the impact of cold and heat on the system and on people. It is something we need to address more generally. She will be aware that discussions on this issue are continuing with the DWP. If there are specific examples she wants to raise with me or the Department, I am very happy to look at them.
I welcome today’s statement and take a moment to thank emergency services in Harlow and across the country who are giving up spending time with their families at Christmas to keep us all safe. East of England ambulance service has set up a new process to support paramedics and Princess Alexandra hospital, which will give them a direct line to a GP who can triage patients and send them to the right department straight away. What is the Department of Health and Social Care doing to work with ambulance services across the country to learn from that and share good practice?
Again, my hon. Friend is already representing the people of his constituency so well by getting to the heart of what is happening on the ground, learning it for himself and bringing such examples to the House. He is absolutely right that there are such examples across the country, working differently in different systems, which are challenging other systems to look at that practice. That is why we say we want to bring the best of the NHS to the rest of the NHS. That is exactly what we mean. I am confident in the work happening centrally at NHS England. It is learning from such examples and wants to go around the country to ensure that we spread those sorts of ideas to other places. We are looking at them all very closely.
I call Andrew George, a member of the Select Committee.
In the far west of Cornwall, in a medical emergency we cannot look for additional support from the north, west or south, because it is sea. The urgent treatment centre at Penzance hospital was closed two and a half years ago, under the Conservatives, adding pressure to the only emergency department for the next 100 miles, which is in Truro, and the out-of-hours doctor service has no doctors. The Minister mentioned in her statement that the NHS urgent and emergency care tiering programme is able to help. Will she use her influence to reopen the urgent treatment centre so that we can have a 24/7 emergency service in the far west of Cornwall?
The hon. Gentleman tempts me to make commitments from the Dispatch Box, which I am not going to do. He makes a very serious point. The sea is an issue for many hon. Members—beautiful though it is, it has an impact on the ability of the system to manage different areas. Looking at different solutions for populations such as those he represents—be that 111, hear and treat systems, more use of technology, and pharmacies and community out-of-hospital care—is exactly what we think is the right way to go in the next few years, as part of the long-term plan. That may or may not be a building with services. We need to look at that in the round and learn from what works well in different sorts of systems.
Order. The questions seem to be getting longer and longer, as do the responses. Let us try to keep the questions on point, and no doubt the answers will be the same.
When I started working in public health, winter pressures were just that: seasonal flu and extra hip fractures. Under the Conservatives, winters started getting longer and longer. How will our 10-year plan ensure that seasonal pressures actually become seasonal and manageable again?
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. We need to get back to normal and we need to recognise that there are different things happening to the system at different times of the year, much of which is predictable. We need to ensure that the system is strong enough to be able to cope with those differences.
As we come into the height of winter, will the Minister join me in thanking all the amazing people on the frontline who are diagnosing, treating and caring for people right across the country? With multiple infectious disease challenges, the impact of cold and extreme weather, and the risk of falls and accidents, will the Government please now rethink their policies on winter fuel cuts and national insurance rises, which will exacerbate the situation and compromise the delivery of primary healthcare, social care and hospice care?
I join the hon. Gentleman in thanking everyone who works in the system. As I said, the NHS is getting £12 billion more this year from this Government than it had from the previous Government in the spring Budget. We are now focused on ensuring that money is used properly.
Let me take this opportunity to thank healthcare workers in Bracknell Forest, who will be working so hard across the Christmas period to keep patients safe this winter. Does the Minister agree that we must ensure that we have not only the right investment in our health services but the right reforms, so that we can fix the broken NHS and get it back on its feet?
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We want to make sure that taxpayers’ money is used efficiently and effectively in the right places for the right treatment at the right time. That is why we are looking at our long-term plan. That is why we want to stabilise the system, so we do not have to keep coming back here year after year with a so-called winter crisis.
I note that the Minister thinks that the absence of the word “pharmacy” from her statement was an omission. I wonder whether she also thinks that the absence of the words “general practice” was an omission. I have been visiting some of my local GP surgeries, and one told me that, as a result of the NIC rises, it is facing charges of £40,000. That equates to a staff member, so it will have to consider laying off a member of staff. Will the Minister please explain how GPs laying off staff will help them to cope with the winter crisis?
As I think the hon. Gentleman knows, I cannot talk about individual cases from the Dispatch Box, but we will be making announcements on that subject very shortly.
I thank the Minister for her statement, and also thank my recent former NHS colleagues, especially those in Sunderland, for what they will be doing over the winter. The Minister has rightly highlighted unacceptable levels of bed occupancy as we go into winter; we know that as bed occupancy increases to unacceptable levels, there is a rise in patient safety risks. What assessment has she made of the patient safety monitoring regime over the winter, linked to those risks?
We have made it absolutely clear, as did the NHS in its letter today, that patient safety is the watchword this winter. We have targets in relation to monitoring the performance of the system, but we absolutely want to ensure that patients are kept safe as we go through the next few months.
Yesterday I spoke to an elderly gentleman who was taking himself off to his local pharmacy to receive the RSV jab, but because he was over 80 he was going to pay more than £200 for it. Will the Minister please tell us how much the RSV jab costs the Department when it is free for 75 to 80-year-olds, and how much guidance or limitation it places on the profit that can be taken by chemists who give it to people who are over 80?
I think the hon. Gentleman knows that I cannot do that from the Dispatch Box, but my officials will have heard his request and what he has said about that specific case, and I will ensure that he receives an answer.
I pay tribute to the hard-working NHS staff in Norwich and in Norfolk as a whole. Norfolk County Council has used artificial intelligence to identify more than 1,000 people who are risk of being admitted to hospital because of falls this Christmas. Does the Minister welcome that use of AI, and will she expand on how we are using technology, now and in the future, to help alleviate winter pressures?
I do not wish to test your patience, Madam Deputy Speaker, but good falls practice has not been prioritised over the past decade, and the failure to prioritise it and continue the work that I know was being done many years ago is yet another testament to the failure of the Conservative party. My hon. Friend is right to refer to the way we can use AI to help the system to improve, so that this hugely preventable problem, which is so damaging to the elderly in particular, no longer occurs.
Winter pressures come around every year for all sorts of reasons. The difference this year was the political choice to take the winter fuel payment away from millions of pensioners. Worse still, the 44,000 pensioners living with a terminal illness will lose that payment. I cannot believe that a Minister as diligent as the hon. Lady has not carried out an impact assessment of the cost to the NHS of people being left in cold homes. My right hon. Friend the Member for Melton and Syston (Edward Argar)—the shadow Secretary of State—and my right hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton) asked for such an assessment. May I give the Minister another chance to commit to publishing it?
The hon. Gentleman is wholly wrong to say that winter crises happen under every Government in every year. They happened, and became a fact of the NHS, under his party’s Government. The key difference this year, which the Conservatives will still not address, is the fact that doctors are not on strike. Doctors are working in the system, caring for patients and doing their job, because this Government, on day one and week one and week four, delivered the negotiated settlement with the doctors. We cannot run the NHS and we cannot manage a winter crisis without doctors in the frontline, and that is where they are. That is what the difference is.
It is great to be going into the winter for the first time in four years without doctors being on strike. Last week I visited the new emergency medical receiving unit at Stoke Mandeville hospital, a 21-bed facility to provide quicker care for patients who come in from ambulances and as a result of GP referrals but require only short admissions. The early results look very promising. Does the Minister agree that we must take these pockets of good practice from across the NHS and ensure that other parts of the NHS learn from and adopt them to help us get through this winter and future winters?
I commend my hon. Friend for, as a new MP, getting to grips in detail with what is happening in her local system and challenging that system, while also giving us those examples of good practice so that we can all learn from them. As she says, many parts of the NHS across the country want to learn from them, and we want to ensure that they are mainstreamed where possible. There are different solutions for different systems, but she is absolutely right to highlight that one.
I refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests as a member of the University College London Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust.
The upcoming rise in national insurance contributions could cost our GP surgeries the equivalent of more than 2 million appointments a year. General practice is the cornerstone of the NHS; it is our front door. Many GPs in my constituency have written to me to express their serious concerns. Does the Minister recognise that hiking costs for family doctors will only worsen pressures on our hospitals, pushing more people towards A&E and preventing many from receiving the care they need?
We recognise all the costs to GPs, as contractors, and to many other parts of the system, as we have said many times in the House. We also recognise the improvements that we have made to the system by improving the number of GPs and funding the NHS by more than the last Government did. We will continue to look at that in the round to ensure that we have a sustainable system.
One of the main reasons I became a politician was the fact that my wife is a midwife. She would come home night after night complaining bitterly about staff shortages on the wards. Can the Minister reassure me that maternity services will receive all the funds they need over the winter, and will she join me in thanking all those maternity staff who work so hard over Christmas, over the new year, and all year round?
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Many tragedies happen over the Christmas period—my own father died on 23 December. Those staff members go above and beyond to help people at difficult times, but also at times of great joy—babies do not wait for Father Christmas, do they?—and my hon. Friend is right to commend midwives and everyone else who is working at this time. We know that maternity services are particularly stretched across most of the country. Those midwives are doing a tremendous job in keeping the system working, and doing the critically important job of supporting women at a mostly joyous but sometimes very difficult time.
At the start of this week, 300 patients were ready to go home from my local NHS hospital trust in Sussex. That bears out the statistic in Lord Darzi’s report that 13% of patients are medically fit for discharge. I am really concerned that we have now reached a point with winter pressures where corridor waits are normalised, not only in A&E departments but in the case of initiatives such as continuous flow models, with corridor trolley waits being pushed into regular wards. It is unacceptable that this has become normalised. Will the Minister expand on her comments about the national care service? When will the plans be published? Will the Government work with us on a cross-party basis, and why did this work not begin sooner?
As I said in my statement, we have begun plans to stabilise the workforce and the employment Bill is going through the House, so I do not agree with the hon. Lady on that point. We know that it will take a long time, and we will of course be working with colleagues to ensure that we do develop that national care service.
Let me begin by echoing the Minister’s words and thanking the fantastic NHS workers and those in the wraparound service who provide a vital service in Portsmouth all year round, but particularly in winter. Let me also thank all the Members who turned up for the joint NHS consultation with me and with the Under-Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth South (Stephen Morgan).
Unfortunately, owing to the scale of the damage done to the NHS by the last Government, our NHS providers have to make very difficult decisions at this time. Can the Minister reassure me and my constituents, that patient safety, and emergency services in particular, will be this Government’s first priority during the winter?
I am very pleased to reiterate that safety is the watchword for winter, as it is all year round, and to stress that that is why NHS England wrote about it today. I commend my hon. Friend for meeting her constituents locally, and I urge all Members to do the same. We are getting some fantastic ideas from staff and from patients about how to reform and change the system for the long term.
One in four people trying to contact their GPs last month were unable to get a same-day appointment, and one in 20 could not get through to their GPs at all. We know that these people end up in A&Es up and down the country, and that hospitals are already buckling under the strain. What is the Minister doing to improve support for GPs and frontline services during this winter crisis, especially while they navigate the challenges of the employer NICs rises?
I refer back to what I said in my statement about how we are supporting the system. We absolutely understand the importance of primary care, and of using 111 to make sure that people are directed towards getting the right care in the right place. We know that the system is under pressure, and we will continue to do all we can to support it in the longer term, as well as in the short term.
I recently visited Northumbria specialist emergency care hospital in Cramlington in my constituency. I met the staff there, who shared their concerns about winter pressures. Every year, they closely track the flu seasons in Australia, given that the patterns that emerge there are often what follows here. They are extremely concerned about what we are going into this winter. What steps has the Department taken to ensure that as many people as possible are vaccinated this winter?
I am working very closely with the UK Health Security Agency to make sure that, week on week, we are aware of the movement of different diseases and viruses through the system, and we will continue to publicise the campaign to get people vaccinated. Anything that hon. Members can do to support that campaign, and to make sure that people support themselves and their loved ones, will be gratefully received by the entire system. The campaign is something that everyone can get behind.
While we all pay tribute to the NHS staff who work over Christmas, we should remember that they are not only missing Christmas with their families, but putting their own health at risk in caring for us.
On Monday, Winchester hospital declared a critical incident, saying that it could admit no more patients and asking people to seek treatment elsewhere. For years, the chief executive officer of the hospital has been requesting 160 extra social care packages, because the lack of social care is stopping the flow of patients through the hospital. She said that providing such packages is the single biggest thing that would help deal with the winter crisis. In September, Winchester hospital applied for winter crisis funding to put an urgent treatment centre on the front of its A&E department to help deal with the anticipated extra caseload. It is now December, and the hospital has still not heard whether it will get the funding. Given the number of critical incidents being declared, will the Minister meet me and the CEO to discuss how we can support the hospital through this situation, and how we can avoid having a planned crisis next winter?
As I said earlier, different systems have different issues. Funding has been allocated in advance to the NHS so that it understands which systems require funding, and that has now been baked in for this year. I cannot address the hon. Gentleman’s points directly from the Dispatch Box, but I am very happy for officials to take note of them and to check with the system on what is happening in his particular community. Obviously, it is important that Winchester hospital works closely with its local authority with regard to discharge. We want to improve the better care fund, and I am sure that he will work with the local authority and his hospital to make sure that it works better.
I declare an interest: I am a governor of the Royal Berkshire hospital, and I have a family member who has shares in a medical company.
The Royal Berkshire hospital has experienced its highest increase in emergency department attendances as we head into the winter period, yet the estate of the Royal Berks is crumbling, out of date and not fit for purpose. People with infectious diseases, such as flu, covid and norovirus, cannot easily be isolated due to poor air circulation, which only makes the situation worse. When will the Royal Berkshire hospital be rebuilt, and will the Minister visit it to see the full extent of our challenges?
Finally, may I wish the Secretary of State and the Minister a merry Christmas? They should take a short break but come back quickly to continue to clear up the Conservatives’ massive failures on the NHS.
Hopefully, we will make announcements on the Royal Berkshire hospital and others as soon as possible in the new year, as I know that this issue is of great concern to all hon. Members. We know that the system will be under pressure, and we thank everyone working in it. We want to make sure that everyone keeps well, and I will take this opportunity to thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments. I am looking forward to returning here in January, hopefully to answer more questions. I thank hon. Members for their questions this afternoon.
(1 week, 1 day ago)
Commons ChamberAnd now for something completely different! With permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will make a statement regarding our launch of a public consultation on copyright and artificial intelligence.
The United Kingdom has a proud tradition of creativity and technical innovation. From our film and television sectors to video games, publishing, music, design and fashion, our creative industries are a cornerstone of our economy and our creative identity. They bring £125 billion to the economy and employ over 2.3 million people. James Bond, the Beatles, Vivienne Westwood, Adele, “Vera”, Bridget Riley, “Tomb Raider”, the Sugababes, “Football Manager”, Paddington and Paul Smith are all part of an immensely valuable British industry.
The creative industries are central to our economic future, and we are determined to help them flourish. The same is true of artificial intelligence—both as an enabler of other industries, including the creative industries, and as a sector in its own right. The Government are determined to capitalise on the UK’s position of strength in the global AI sector and will soon publish the AI opportunities action plan, which will set out an ambitious road map to unlock AI’s transformative potential across our economy and public services.
Both the creative industries and AI sectors are at the heart of our industrial strategy, and they are also increasingly interlinked. AI is already being used across the creative industries, from music and film production to publishing, architecture and design; it has transformed post-production, for instance. As of September 2024, more than 38% of creative industries businesses said that they have used AI technologies, with nearly 50% using AI to improve their business operations.
Strong copyright laws have been the bedrock of the creative industries, but as things stand, the application of UK copyright law to the training of AI models is fiercely disputed. Rights holders, including musicians, record labels, artists and news publishers, are finding it difficult to control the use of their works to train AI models, and they want and need a greater ability to manage such activity and to be paid for it. Likewise, AI developers, including UK-based start-ups, are finding it difficult to navigate copyright law and complain that the legal uncertainty means that they are unable to train leading models in the UK.
The status quo cannot continue. It risks limiting investment, innovation and growth in the creative industries, the AI sector and the wider economy. Neither side can afford to wait for expensive litigation—either here or in the US—to clarify the law, not least because courts in different jurisdictions may come to different conclusions and individual cases may not provide clarity across the sector. Nor can we simply rely on voluntary co-operation. That is why we think the Government must take proactive and thoughtful action that works for all parties.
The consultation published yesterday sets out clearly that the Government’s objectives on this issue are threefold: to enhance rights holders’ control of their material and their ability to be paid for its use, to support wide access to high-quality material to drive the development of leading AI models in the UK, and to secure greater transparency from AI developers in order to build trust with creators, creative industries and consumers. In short, we want to provide legal certainty for all and to secure enhanced licensing of content.
There are three key aspects to our consultation. The first is increased transparency from AI developers. That includes the content that they have used in training their large language models, how they acquire it, and any content generated by their models. In other words, consumers should know whether a book or song has been generated by a person or by artificial intelligence, and whose content helped generate it in the first place. The second aspect is a new system of rights reservation, whereby rights holders can withhold their content from being used unless and until it has been licensed. The third is an exception to copyright law for text and data mining where rights holders have licensed their content or otherwise chosen not to reserve their rights. That would improve access to content by AI developers, while allowing rights holders to control how their content is used for AI training.
Those measures are contingent upon each other. Progressed together, we believe this package of measures could enhance the ability of rights holders to protect their material and seek payment for its use through increased licensing, while also enabling AI developers to train leading models in the UK in full compliance with UK law. It will, however, only work if there is a proper system of rights reservation in place. I urge everyone to read and respond to the consultation document and to examine the safeguards we are proposing for rights holders. I would especially urge both AI developers and rights holders to work with us to identify a simple, practical, proportionate and effective technical system of rights reservation, without which the whole package will not work.
We are conscious that the UK does not operate in a hermetically sealed bubble, and this provides its own challenges. If we were to adopt a too tight regime based on proactive explicit permission, the danger is that international developers would continue to train their models using UK content accessed overseas but may not be able to deploy them in the UK. As AI becomes increasingly powerful and widely adopted globally, this could significantly disadvantage sectors across our economy, including the creative industries, and sweep the rug from underneath British AI developers. That is why, as well taking this approach in the UK, we are committed to international engagement and recognise the importance of international alignment.
This consultation is a joint effort between the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology, the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and the Intellectual Property Office, and between the Under-Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology, my wonderful hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Feryal Clark), who has responsibility for AI, and me, with responsibility for the creative industries.
This is not an academic exercise. The consultation is absolutely clear that we will not implement these changes unless and until we are confident that we have a practical, practicable and effective plan that meets our objectives of enhancing rights holder control, providing legal certainty around AI firms’ access to content, and providing transparency for rights holders and AI developers of all sizes. My fellow Minister and I will be engaging directly with a wide range of people in an attempt to find practical and technical solutions to this question.
Many people have called this an existential question for our creative industries. They are right. We therefore see this consultation as a pivotal opportunity to ensure that sustained growth and innovation for the UK’s AI sector continues to benefit creators, businesses and consumers alike while preserving the values and principles that make our creative industries so unique. We believe that there is a potential win-win solution, and that the UK, with its strong traditions of copyright and technological innovation, is in a unique place to deliver it. I commend this statement to the House.
I call the shadow Minister, Dr Ben Spencer.
I thank the Minister for advance sight of the statement.
Britain is a world leader in the creative industries, from music to art to literature to our free and independent media. I say as a shadow Science, Innovation and Technology Minister that, while we need science to live, the arts make life worth living. The UK also has a world leading tech sector. The invention of generative artificial intelligence provides many opportunities, but particularly for the creative industries the data mining behind AI models can breach copyright. That presents challenges around authenticity when they are used to mimic artists and creative works, and there is a lack of legal clarity around the status of computer-generated work. We must tackle and respond to those issues.
Britain’s creative industries employ nearly 2.4 million people and contribute £125 billion to our economy, but we must also recognise that we are part of a global technological ecosystem and if we fall behind in supporting our artificial intelligence industry it will move elsewhere. Let us be clear: the genie is out of the bottle and the world is scrabbling to respond to it. As always there is a balance to be struck to ensure we take the opportunity on offer to revolutionise working practices and to deliver productivity through technological innovation, so we welcome work and investigation in this area on both the role of regulation and the options available.
Given the delays in the Minister bringing this work forward, he must recognise that this is a complex area to regulate, especially given the international and domestic interconnectivities. Sadly, rather than taking an open position as an honest broker, it is clear today that the Government have already picked one side in this debate. The Minister’s preference for a data mining opt-out for the creative industries will place extra burdens on creators to protect their intellectual property. Given the magnitude of the impact of his proposals, why has he released this consultation now, just before the Christmas break, and why is it limited to only 10 weeks? So when I am benefiting from UK creative talent over the Christmas period, whether listening to the Sugababes or watching Daniel Craig as James Bond—Bond was blond—the creative sector will be responding to a consultation that the livelihoods of those who work in the sector depend on. Will the Minister extend the consultation? Can the Minister explain how the opt-out will ensure protection to creators? And in forming this position, how many times has he already met representatives from the technology and creative sectors both domestically and internationally?
The Minister should be well aware, following five months of falling business confidence, that one thing that businesses dislike is uncertainty, but this announcement of an opt-out represents nothing but uncertainty for the creative industries. Rather than prioritising their need to be seen to be doing something, the Government need to start learning to do things right.
I call our very own James Bond, Minister Chris Bryant.
Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Fortunately, I asked ChatGPT what the shadow Minister would ask me and it was pretty much right—although some of the questions from ChatGPT were rather more to the point. I will deal with the serious points he made.
First, the shadow Minister raised the point about mimicking artists. That is one of the things we are consulting on. There is a legitimate question about whether we should take further action in this country. Tennessee has acted: it has got its ELVIS Act—the Ensuring Likeness Voice and Image Security Act. California and a couple of other states in the United States of America have acted on this already, and whether we should move in that direction is a perfectly legitimate question.
Likewise, the shadow Minister referred to computer-generated works. He will probably know that under section 9(3) of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 there is provision that seems to guarantee the right for computer-generated art to be copyright-protected. That is not the case in most other countries, and it could be argued that developments in recent copyright law on the nature of originality would suggest that, unless a human being is directly involved in the creation of the work, there should not be copyright protection. We have suggested a direction of travel to get rid of section 9(3) of the Act.
The shadow Minister said that we have delayed bringing this forward, but I merely point out that for quite a long time the previous Government said that they would bring forward a voluntary system, bringing the two sides together. Nothing whatsoever came from that, so I am afraid that feels a bit of a cheat.
What I want to contest is the idea that we have sided with one or the other. There is a legitimate problem, which is that AI companies and the creative industries are at loggerheads in the courts in several different jurisdictions on several different points which are moot at the moment. We do not think that simply standing by the present situation will suffice because the danger is that in two or three years’ time all UK content will have been scraped by one or other AI developing company somewhere else in the world if there is no legal clarity in the UK. I would like to be able to bring all that home so that AI operators can work in this country with security under the law, using UK copyright that has been licensed and paid for, because that is another potential revenue stream for creators in this country.
The shadow Minister asks about extending the consultation. I am not going to extend the consultation. We want to crack on with this piece of work. Only two minutes earlier in his speech he said that we were delaying bringing it forward and then he said we should delay further. It is time that we seize hold of this. I certainly will meet with a large number of people. My fellow Minister my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North and I have met many different organisations and we will be providing a list because it will be in our transparency returns published soon, and the number must run to dozens if not hundreds. Of course, there are differing views, but I make it absolutely clear that the three measures we are talking about—the transparency on inputs and outputs that AI developers will have to provide, the provisions for creators to reserve their rights, and the exemption for data mining for commercial purposes—are contingent upon each other. We will not move forward with such a package unless there is a technical solution to the question of how people can reserve their rights.
At the weekend, I looked online to see what it would be like to try to reserve rights, by pretending to be various musicians and artists. At present, it is phenomenally difficult and complicated—other Members may have questions about this—and that must change. There must be a proper rights reservation system that is easy to use, practicable and enables creators, either individually or collectively, to assert and maintain control of their rights.
I call the Chair of the Science, Innovation and Technology Committee.
The UK is in a unique position—second in the world in the creative industries, and in the top three for AI innovation—so getting the right solution to protect and support our intellectual property, while supporting and incentivising AI innovation, is uniquely important to our cultural and economic life.
I am a former regulator and chartered engineer, so I welcome the Minister’s decision to go with regulatory technology as the solution, and to challenge the tech sector to come up with technology to ensure we can have both the reservation of rights and the transparency of inputs to large language models, both of which are critical.
The tech sector too often spends less time protecting people and property than maximising profit, but the language of the consultation is a bit vague. The Minister talked about arriving at a plan rather than a solution, so will he make it absolutely clear that any text and data mining exemption is contingent on the technology being deliverable, implementable and workable, and that if the technology fails, the exemption fails?
I welcome the Chair of the Select Committee to her place. She is 100% right that we cannot have the text and data mining exemption for commercial purposes unless there is a proper rights reservation system in place. I do not know whether she has looked at rights reservation, but it is terribly complicated. People can use the robots exclusion protocol, but it is rather out of date and is avoided by many players in the market. It is very complicated and applies only to a person’s own website, whereas their creative input might not be on their personal website—it might be on somebody else’s.
I tried to create a Bridget Riley using an AI bot over the weekend. The bot had obviously trained itself on some Bridget Riley works, but it was a shockingly bad Bridget Riley—it was nowhere near. I wanted to ask whether it had used Bridget Riley’s work to learn how to make a Bridget Riley-like picture and, if so, whether Bridget Riley received any compensation. Bridget Riley could use another website, haveibeentrained.com, if she wanted, but it is phenomenally complicated. That is precisely what must change. The AI companies must come up with a technical solution, whether they produce music, text or whatever. Without that, we will not be able to progress.
It is always easier if the Minister looks at the Chair, so we can ensure that we are sticking to time limits.
I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
The UK can and should be a global leader in AI innovation, and I welcome this consultation. Investment and support for technological innovation will be a crucial pillar of growing our economy and solving the problems of today and tomorrow. Likewise, our world-leading creative industries must remain a growth priority.
In my constituency, I see the invaluable contribution that the film industry makes to the local and national economy, driving growth while producing top-quality content. We might not have James Bond, but we have had “Robin Hood” and “Deadpool”, and “Wicked” was recently filmed just over the border.
The creative industries have been clear that failure to apply existing copyright laws to AI model training presents an existential threat. They are being asked to allow their output to be used to train models that could be in direct competition with them. We must get this balance right.
There is no uncertainty in existing law. UK law is totally clear that commercial organisations must license the data they use to train their large language models. The announcement that the Government favour a text and data mining exemption will be deeply concerning to the creative industries. The issue was thought to be settled under the previous Government, so what assessment have the Government made of the likely impact of their favoured option on the creative industries? The expectation seems to be that small businesses in the creative industry should welcome an opt-out system in exchange for vague commitments to transparency, so will the Minister lay out what successful, workable examples of an opt-out system he has looked at? Can he give us examples of where this approach has successfully protected creatives? Why has the option of an opt-in not been included in the consultation?
As has been said previously, the creative industry adds £125 billion a year in gross value to the economy and goes hand in hand with our digital economy. It is essential that the Government support AI innovation, but that cannot come at the cost of our world-leading creative industry.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I will look at you to make sure that I do not go over time, but I would point out that “Wicked” is far too long a movie.
I make it clear that I do not think there is a complete separation between AI and the creative industries. AI is a creative industry in many regards. There is an important collaboration between the two, and even Sir Paul McCartney has said that he has used AI to help him write some of his most recent work.
The hon. Lady says this was all settled under the previous Government, but nothing in this territory was settled under the previous Government. It was simply left hanging in the air, which is why we are trying to take action. She asks whether there are any successful examples of opt-outs. No, there are not. Precisely the point I am trying to make is that, at the moment, it is remarkably difficult for individuals and organisations—whether a record label, an individual artist or photographer, or whoever—to protect their rights. That is what needs to change.
There has been some licensing. Some newspapers have licensed content with OpenAI. Sony Music has written to all the different AI operators to say that all the work that it protects is copyrighted and not to be used. But I am not sure that such piecemeal processes are enough to build the control we want for rights holders, while enabling AI to develop fruitfully in the UK.
I welcome this consultation and my hon. Friend’s recognition that neither we nor this stuff exists in a bubble. What does he make of the NO FAKES—Nurture Originals, Foster Art, and Keep Entertainment Safe—Bill, currently in the US House of Representatives, which protects personality and likeness of human writers and artists against misappropriation?
The Minister says he is in meetings mode. Does he know what is happening with the consultation on live event ticketing? It would be great to meet him to discuss my private Member’s Bill—the anti-Oasis-style scam, rip-off ticketing Bill—which is being squashed by Friday filibustering.
I think my hon. Friend, who is on the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, took advantage of the change in the Chair to get away with asking a question that has absolutely nothing to do with this consultation. On live ticketing, I am absolutely certain that the Government will have something to say soon—the word “soon” means precisely what I choose it to mean.
On publicity rights, my hon. Friend is quite right that that is a significant question that we will ask during the consultation. There is an argument for bringing in legislation in the UK. California, as I said, has a digital replicas law and Tennessee has the ELVIS Act, which stands for eliminating limits on the voice’s intrinsic sovereignty. I think that was an attempt to cram that into the word “Elvis”. She is right that the US Copyright Office is arguing for a federal digital replica law, and we might want to go down that route as well. I urge my hon. Friend and, perhaps, the Select Committee to consider that matter. They might like to provide some advice in response to the consultation as well.
I am tempted to invite the Minister to consult the magnificent Taylor Swift who, apart from all her many other talents, has shown herself pretty shrewd when it comes to preserving the copyright of her material. He puts his finger on the key weakness in all this: no matter what sort of regime we set up, and no matter how many countries we try to get involved in this, surely it will only take one rogue jurisdiction to allow a machine to scrape from everybody else’s material? Then, the internet’s ability for everyone to access it will undermine the regime and, in that way, we face the danger that “Shake It Off” becomes “Rip It Off”.
I disagree. I saw the right hon. Gentleman nodding earlier when I was talking about not wanting to pull the rug from under the feet of UK AI adopters. The UK is in a very specific position. We have probably the best copyright laws of any country because of the specific way in which they developed. It is partly thanks to Hogarth, Dickens and many others over the years that we have ended up with strong copyright legislation. We also have a strong body of intellectual property in this country, which is enormously valuable, potentially, to AI operators. We stand in a very specific position. There is an argument that AI can be trained elsewhere, in another jurisdiction, but the moment it is brought into the UK, it still falls under UK legislation.
The right hon. Gentleman is also right about this. I did not consult Taylor Swift, but I did ask an AI company to come up with a song in the manner of Adele.
“Oh, I still feel you deep in my soul,
Even though you left me out here on my own.
The love we had it’s slipping through my hands,
But I can’t forget, I still don’t understand.
You’re gone, but your memory’s all I see,
And in the silence, it’s you haunting me”—
Madam Deputy Speaker. [Laughter.] It is sort of Adele, but it is not Adele. Does Adele know that her material has been used? Does her record label know that her lyrics have been used to create that? It is sort of in the territory, but it is not right. I think we can get this right in the UK and provide leadership to the world. That is what we should strive for.
I will just make the point that I can see that this is very technical and complicated. It might require long answers, but I am not sure it required that level of input from not-Adele.
Can the Minister clarify the difference between his term “rights reservation” and previous reports of the Government’s preference for an opt-out system? Those systems have already been called out and considered unjust by our creators. There are AI leaders who recognise the need for fair licensing. What assurances can the Government provide to support both human and AI innovation? Does the Minister, with his creative industries hat on, agree that respecting copyright would see the introduction of an opt-in system as essential?
Again, this is another false dichotomy being presented to us between opt in and opt out. That is why we have landed on the term “rights reservation”. A lot of the material out there is not copyright. That is either because it is long out of copyright—the law for most works lasts for 70 years after the death of the author or the first publication of the work—or because some artists have categorically decided not to retain their copyright. Tom Lehrer, the author of many satirical songs from the 1980s and 1990s, such as “The Vatican Rag” and “The Masochism Tango”, has deliberately surrendered his copyright.
This is a world where we want to make sure that the vast majority of rights holders, whether they be the record label, the individual photographer, the artist or whatever, have the right of control over their copyright—over whether it is used and how it is used—and if it is going to be used, they should be remunerated. I urge my hon. Friend, who I know has a great interest in this subject in his role on the Select Committee, to make sure that that false dichotomy between opt in and opt out is abandoned. We talk about rights reservation, because then, opt out might look remarkably like opt in.
In July of this year, it was revealed that 173,000 YouTube videos, including material created by globally recognised British musicians, news channels and artists, had been scraped into a dataset used to train AI models. Content from over 40,000 creatives has been found in this dataset, yet I do not believe that consent was sought from a single impacted creator to use their copyrighted works. It is clear that AI offers a fantastic opportunity for our economy, but it must supplement and grow industries rather than replace them wholesale. Creatives deserve to be compensated for their work. AI companies will happily pay the electricity bill for their data centres and wages for their staff, so why should they not also pay to access the creative content on which their models depend?
I completely agree with the hon. Lady. Of course those companies should pay for the content that they are using. I think she is referring to LAION-5B, which is the dataset that was produced in Germany. Interestingly, a court in Hamburg has decided that this is already covered by the exemption for data and text mining for non-commercial purposes for research. Subsequently, though, this has been used not just for research, but for other purposes, which is precisely the kind of area where there is a legal dispute. That is why we are trying to provide legal certainty in the UK as to what can and cannot be used, when it can be used, and how we can make sure that people’s creative rights are protected.
This is an important issue everywhere in the world, but it is particularly important here in the UK because our economy has, as the Minister has said, incredible strengths both in the creative industries and, more recently, in AI development. It is important to note that a lot of the technology that powers these models was pioneered by DeepMind here in London. Does the Minister agree that getting the balance right on this is critical to the Government’s mission of delivering economic growth?
Both sectors are part of our industrial strategy, and we must make sure that both are able to flourish. I fully understand that there will be people in the creative industries who will be worried about what we are saying, but I want them to understand that this package comes as a whole. Ed Newton-Rex, who was formerly of Stability AI, wrote in his Substack today that he was concerned that this Government would proceed without actually checking whether a system of rights reservation worked. We will not. We will proceed only if there is a proper system of rights reservation. But there are an awful lot of very clever people who work in AI in this country. I would like somebody to set a bunch of them on working out a simple, practicable, technical solution to the question of rights reservation. Then, I think, everybody has a chance of prospering in the UK.
As a former journalist, I am intimately familiar with the gold standard copyright laws that we have in this country. Does the Minister agree with the News Media Association, which is very concerned about the current situation faced by its members, where things are already being scraped and taken into these AI machines? To quote the fabulous Sugababes, those members would like the Minister to “Push the Button” on the existing laws and protect their copyright now. Can we have action now, rather than this rather vague and woolly consultation?
Well, no. This is a genuinely thorny question that needs a technical solution. The Government are not going to write the technical solution. That has to come from the two sides working out together how we can get to a situation that benefits everybody. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right about the newspapers. Some newspapers have already licensed material, including Associated Newspapers, The Washington Post and several others. It would be interesting to see whether the income that those companies are receiving is flowing through to the journalists who produce the copyright material in the first place, but perhaps that is part of the rights reservation system that we need to look at as well.
The commitment of the Secretaries of State for Culture, Media and Sport and for Science, Innovation and Technology to ensuring that creators can control how their content is used and be paid for it is very welcome, but some creators are concerned that the rights reservation framework proposed by the Government will not allow them to assert control. What steps is the Minister taking to ensure that a new framework takes account of those concerns?
I have been trying—perhaps I have not yet succeeded—to make it absolutely clear that I, the Secretaries of State for Culture, Media and Sport and for Science, Innovation and Technology and the Under-Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology, my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Feryal Clark), who is sitting next to me, would not bring forward for legislation something that undermined the copyright rights of rights holders in the creative industries. We simply would not do so.
What we are trying to do is push both sides to a place where we can create a new system—it will probably be new to the United Kingdom, and might be one of our gifts to the world—of rights reservation that is simple, practical and practicable. This is not a Second Reading debate; it is simply a statement on a consultation. I urge all who have concerns to voice them in that consultation.
This is a timely statement, because I have been conversing with Anne, one of my constituents. Anne is a visual artist and dress designer, and she has exactly the concerns that you set out.
Order. It is the Minister who is setting out concerns, not me.
I beg your pardon, Madam Deputy Speaker.
I will recommend to Anne that she contributes to the consultation. However, the Minister hits on the nub of the problem, which is the international element. For me, the key example is China, a country that has a history of stealing IP and is a key player in the international AI competition. I wish the Minister well in this work, but how can we thread the needle so that, if the consultation leads to a Bill that gets implemented, we avoid not only the copyright of our creatives being stolen by Chinese AI firms but handing the AI advantage to China?
I think that China is the problem in lots of different cases; I am not sure that it is in this case. It is more difficult for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for me to get a practicable solution, but that is what we are determined to achieve. When the hon. Gentleman referred to Anne, I thought for one moment that she was his AI assistant. The truth is that we will all have AI assistants very soon. Most of the time, when we google anything these days, the first result comes up because of AI. It is part of our lives, and we cannot pretend that away. What I would like is for UK companies and start-ups to develop AI in a way that accepts that the content that many of them are desperate to use needs to be paid for.
May I convey to the Minister my disappointment that his ChatGPT prompt yielded the Sugababes and “Football Manager” but not the enduring institution of “Gavin and Stacey” from the Vale of Glamorgan? I know that that is an omission that ChatGPT will correct. This is a critical debate, because the path to prosperity for nations has to be a path through technology. In that context, the primary question on my mind is whether the Minister can set out plans for how data accuracy and completeness in the creative sector can underpin the Government’s wider AI action plan, and ultimately drive national growth.
My hon. Friend makes a very good point about “Gavin and Stacey”, and I look forward to the Christmas special. I would merely point out that, since H from Steps is from the Rhondda, Steps has a lot more to offer.
Well, some people have greatness thrust upon them.
My hon. Friend makes an important point about data, which will become an increasing part of our economic resilience and strength in this country. That is another part of my responsibility, if I have my DSIT hat on. I very much look forward to the Data (Use and Access) Bill coming to the Commons in the new year, once it has finished in the other place, because it is an opportunity for us to create smart data, which will release a great deal more economic potential and productivity in the UK.
UK Music describes copyright as the foundation of the music industry, providing a means for creators to monetise their work, an incentive for investment in talent, and an opportunity for us, the public, to enjoy the fruits of creativity. It is important that we get this right, so will the Minister set out how the Government will work with both developers and rights holders to make the most of this groundbreaking technology while still protecting artists’ work?
No. 1: I will have endless meetings with an awful lot of people from the creative industries to ensure that all their concerns are recognised. I pay tribute to UK Music, which has already been in touch several times in the past 24 hours to express its views on the subject. Quite interestingly, copyright works differently in different media—in music, publishing, newspapers and so on—and that is one of the things we need to take clear hold of when we take anything further forward.
I also had a successful meeting this afternoon with people talking about introducing a voluntary levy on tickets and arena gigs to ensure that we have money to support grassroots music in this country, and I very much hope that we will be able to make a significant announcement on that in the new year.
I welcome the statement. The Minister refers to Ed Newton-Rex, who recently gave evidence to our Select Committee on this very subject. It is clear that creatives are deeply worried about any suggestion of an opt-out when it comes to the solution. That is why I welcome my hon. Friend’s commitment at the Dispatch Box to make any progress contingent on a technological solution on rights reservation because, ultimately, is that not the way to square the circle that this Government are always trying to square, which is of economic growth and innovation, while protecting workers’ rights?
My hon. Friend is 100% right. Squaring the circle is what we are in the business of doing, and sometimes that is not an easy thing for Government, because not all the levers lie with Government and with legislation. To be absolutely clear, though, we know we need to provide legal certainty in this space. That almost certainly means that we will want to introduce legislation. We will not introduce legislation until such time as all the different aspects that I have already referred to—namely, transparency on inputs and outputs, control of rights reservation for rights holders, and the text and data mining exemption for commercial work—in that sphere hang together, as all of them are contingent on one another.
I think that was the last question, Madam Deputy Speaker, so have yourself a very merry Christmas.
You are supposed to sing it!
The Minister would be well advised not to sing at the Dispatch Box, but I thank him for his comprehensive responses this afternoon.
(1 week, 1 day ago)
Commons ChamberWith your permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I wish to provide an update to the House about the Government’s Post Office redress schemes and funding.
No one in this House—no one in this country—will have failed to be moved by the plight of postmasters caught up in the Horizon scandal. The fact that they suffered so much over so many years is both unconscionable and inexcusable. The Government are determined to do right by them and to learn from the mistakes of the past. That is why, before the election in July, we promised to ensure swift and fair redress for postmasters affected by the Horizon scandal and, in the past five months, we have made significant progress.
To date, compensation has more than doubled since the Government took office, with £499 million paid to 3,300 victims. Of that amount, £79 million has been paid to 232 people from the Horizon convictions redress scheme, which we set up in July. As of 29 November, the Ministry of Justice had notified more than 520 people in England and Wales that their convictions have been quashed by the Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Act 2024. The relevant justice authorities in Scotland and Northern Ireland are also continuing to notify individuals within their jurisdictions.
While the progress we have made is positive, we know there are still complex cases to resolve, and we need to speed up other parts of the redress process. Many postmasters are still yet to be compensated or have their cases reconsidered. I am conscious that for the victims of the Horizon scandal, justice delayed is justice denied, and that our responsibility in Government is to work to make the compensation process as effective as possible. That is why we have asked the Post Office to write to over 16,000 former postmasters, encouraging them to come forward if they believe they have a genuine claim. I can confirm those letters have been sent. We want to ensure that every postmaster who is eligible for redress under the Horizon shortfall scheme has the opportunity to apply for it.
On more complex cases, notably in the group litigation order and the Horizon convictions redress scheme, for which my department is, and should be seen to be, directly responsible, we have agreed a new target for 90% of challenge cases in the GLO and HCRS to receive a substantive response within 40 days. We have moved in additional staff, and Sir Gary Hickinbottom, who is already assisting us with the overturned conviction cases, has been appointed chair of the independent panel for the HCRS.
We are looking again at the arguments for providing additional redress to postmaster family members who were affected by the scandal, and to the employees of postmasters. I will report back to the House on that in due course. The Horizon compensation advisory board recommended the establishment of an appeals process for the Horizon shortfall scheme that is independent of the Post Office and Government, and we accepted that recommendation in September. We are in the process of assembling a team of independent external lawyers to help deliver the appeals process. We expect that contract to be awarded in January. I will be able to provide a further update on the appeals process early in the new year.
There are still concerns about the responsibility of the Post Office to deliver the Horizon shortfall scheme and the overturned convictions scheme. The Government are considering the merits of my Department taking over that responsibility, but the benefits of such a move must clearly outweigh the potential disruption. We are carefully considering what intervention we may take.
Thanks to a small group of postmasters and their families coming forward this year, as well as to parliamentarians including Lord Beamish, we now know that issues at the Post Office went beyond Horizon, and that some postmasters may have been affected by earlier systems such as Capture. The Government have responded with swift, significant action. The Kroll investigation published its report into Capture on 30 September, with a further addendum made on 18 October. From that report we have concluded that there are postmasters who may have fallen victim to flaws in Capture software.
Most of us will not be able to comprehend fully what it was like to be accused of mistakes never made, ill intent never harboured and crimes never committed. Some postmasters have told us that, like victims of the Horizon scandal, they were shunned by their local communities—by their customers, friends and neighbours. I speak on behalf of the whole Government in expressing how sorry I am for what those postmasters and their families have gone through. For that and all they were forced to endure, they deserve not just redress but the restoration of their good names.
Uncovering exactly what happened in each case will be a challenging exercise given the passage of time and the lack of records and evidence. However, we are keen to apply the lessons that we have learned from previous redress schemes, and to take account of the needs of this group of victims. The Government will develop our proposals through engagement with postmasters and other key stakeholders, such as the Horizon compensation advisory board and legal experts. Over the coming months, we want to determine the scope of the financial redress and the eligibility criteria, so that we can bring both redress and closure to the impacted postmasters and their families. I expect to provide a further update to the House on that matter in the spring.
Next year, we also expect to receive Sir Wyn Williams’s report. The Post Office Horizon IT inquiry has reviewed the oral evidence that was submitted to it over the course of the last two years. I am thankful to Sir Wyn Williams for his excellent chairing of the inquiry, which closed yesterday. I am also thankful to the Horizon compensation advisory board for the report that it published earlier this year. In case Members are not aware, the board is recommending that a new independent body be set up to deliver any future redress schemes on behalf of the Government, as well as to act in a role similar to that of an ombudsman. The goal is, of course, to reduce the chances of future scandals—or at least to expose them more quickly.
The Government welcome those recommendations. Any recommendation that might prevent harm, or at least help the Government be more responsive to it, is worthy of serious consideration. The potential impact of such a body would be wide ranging, with potential implications for existing redress schemes in the NHS, which need to be considered alongside other issues. We will therefore take time to consult and consider in particular the view of the Williams inquiry before reaching a conclusion. We intend to give a full response within six months of the publication of the Williams inquiry report.
For too long, decisions about the future of the Post Office have been put off. That neglect has allowed significant issues at the heart of the company to grow and take root. As previously set out, we will publish a Green Paper in the first half of next year to seek the public’s views, insights and experiences to help shape the future of the Post Office. In the meantime, we are taking steps to continue to support the post office network and the important services it provides. I can announce that we are providing a further £37.5 million to subsidise the post office network this year. The interim chair of the Post Office, Nigel Railton, is rightly shifting the focus of the business from headquarters to postmasters; the Post Office is also reviewing its costs, as its financial position continues to be challenging. He has announced ambitions for a new deal for postmasters, and I am pleased that the Post Office is going to make an immediate one-off payment to postmasters to increase their remuneration, in recognition of the pressures that postmasters face. That payment is expected to be delivered this month.
We are working with the senior leadership of the Post Office on future opportunities, beginning with banking, so that the company can increase its product offers and commercial revenue and reduce its costs in communities across the UK. Together, we hope these steps will enable the Post Office to move forward, working better with its postmasters and better serving the needs of its customers. This Government are attempting to fix the foundations, deal with the injustices of the past, and invest in a different future for the Post Office so that it can sit at the heart of our communities as a trusted institution once more. I commend this statement to the House.
I call the shadow Secretary of State.
I thank the Minister for advance sight of his statement.
As shadow Secretary of State, I can say on behalf of every Conservative Member that we are committed to working collaboratively with the Government to deliver the appropriate redress to all those affected by the Horizon scandal and any issues relating to the Capture software. Many of the actions on which the Minister has updated the House were initiated by my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake). As my hon. Friend has said, Ministers will have our full support in the swift delivery of redress and the overturning of the convictions of those affected by this wide-ranging scandal. The Conservative party welcomes the redress schemes that have been implemented to remedy the gross miscarriages of justice that have affected hundreds of families across the country. Our only focus now must be on processing claims to get those schemes completed as quickly as possible.
There remain a number of questions following the Minister’s statement that I would be grateful if he would clarify. I understand that the Kroll report did not publish any conclusions about the safety of criminal convictions. The Horizon advisory group had already recommended that the Government introduce legislation to overturn the convictions of postmasters who fell victim to the Capture scheme. I read that the Government have deferred to the Criminal Cases Review Commission on that matter. Could the Minister update us on what conversations he has had with the CCRC in relation to the process of overturning convictions?
The redress that the Minister has announced is welcome news, but there remains a lack of specific detail on how the affected parties can expect progress. Will he set out a timeline for the redress of postmasters affected by Capture? He said that he has instructed the Post Office to write to 16,000 potentially affected former postmasters, urging them to come forward if they believe they have a claim to make, and that those letters have been sent. Can he confirm when they were sent?
Is the Minister able to provide an update on his conversations with Fujitsu? How much has Fujitsu contributed to date? What meetings has he had, and where are we on that important aspect of this process? It was concerning to learn back in September that only a small handful of claims had been offered redress through the Horizon convictions redress scheme and, at that point, no full and final settlements had been made through that scheme. Could the Minister reassure the House that the Government are not just opening the door to those claims, but managing the process of getting them heard, resolved, and ultimately redressed? I was pleased to hear that additional staff have been seconded to facilitate the compensation scheme—I welcome that and thank the Minister—but can he confirm how many have been seconded and from where, and can he give the House an assurance that they will remain seconded for as long as is necessary?
Finally, we welcome the Government’s announcement of £37.5 million of network subsidy. It was announced in yesterday’s written ministerial statement, and it is indeed welcome news. The Minister said that it is for this year, so would he clarify whether that relates to the period up until the end of March 2025? What certainty is there of funding beyond that period so that we can all proceed on a sustainable footing? Is it only for this year, or does it also cover the fiscal year 2025-26?
I am grateful to the shadow Secretary of State for his willingness to work with us collaboratively on providing redress not only to the victims of the Horizon scandal, but to the victims of the Capture software issues.
The shadow Secretary of State referenced the Kroll report. As he and, I suspect, other Members of the House who have followed this issue closely will be aware, Kroll did not take a specific view on convictions. We are aware that a small number of sub-postmasters—those who believed they were victims of using the Capture software, given the shortfalls it generated and the way they were treated by the Post Office as a result—have referred their claims to the Criminal Cases Review Commission. We have instructed the Post Office to work at speed to review what evidence it can provide to the CCRC to help it make decisions on the safety of those convictions. Similarly, the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission is looking at a number of cases, and we have similarly instructed the Post Office to co-operate with it as quickly as it can.
On Capture redress, yesterday we met sub-postmasters who have campaigned on Capture, and indeed Lord Beamish, to update them on the steps we will take. We will work at pace. As I said in my statement, we face a significant challenge with the amount of evidence available. For example, no central record has as yet been found of the number of Capture users or of who they were. We are nevertheless going to be working to design a redress scheme. We will consult sub-postmasters and the Horizon compensation advisory board. As I have said, I will bring forward an update on where we have got to by next spring.
On the 16,000 letters that the Post Office has sent out, I can confirm that they have gone out very recently—the shadow Secretary of State will forgive me if I do not have the exact dates. He rightly aired again the concern about the responsibility of Fujitsu, which is felt across the House. I am sure that he will recognise that we need to wait for Sir Wyn Williams’s inquiry to report, to give us a better understanding of the scale of Fujitsu’s responsibilities and, therefore, its potential liabilities. We have said that we will respond to the inquiry’s recommendations at pace, and certainly within six months. I am sure that he will opine on Fujitsu, and we will respond accordingly.
On the Horizon convictions redress scheme, the then Minister of State at the Ministry of Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Swindon South (Heidi Alexander), and I had the pleasure of appearing before the Business and Trade Committee, chaired by my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North (Liam Byrne), to update it on progress in overturning the convictions following the legislation last summer. She committed the Ministry to completing its work of assessing the cases by the end of January, and I understand that it still intends to do so. We have already paid out some £79 million as part of our responsibilities to provide redress to those whose convictions were overturned.
Lastly, on the network subsidy uplift, the shadow Secretary of State will understand that the money is just for this year. Spending review discussions are taking place across Government, and the Post Office is an active part of those discussions.
I call the Chair of the Business and Trade Committee.
I welcome much of the Minister’s statement today. Redress is being paid out faster, but the truth is that 70% of the budget for redress has still not been paid. The Select Committee will be supplying its advice on how we make that faster in a report that we will release on new year’s day. The Minister has set out details for the House about the Capture victims who have been identified. Does he believe that many of those victims were convicted? If they were, would it not be right to have those convictions automatically overturned, in the way that we have done for other victims of this appalling scandal?
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend that the first report of his Committee has looked at the Post Office redress schemes. He will know that progress has been made, but as I alluded to in my opening statement, we recognise that there is still significantly more to do, particularly with the complex cases. Specifically on convictions and Capture, I have to tell the House that at this stage we do not know how many people were convicted as a result of the Capture software. We are aware of a small number of cases. As I have said, a number of cases are with the Criminal Cases Review Commission and the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission. We have instructed the Post Office to review all its records—we know it has some records available for the 1991 to 1999 period—and to get what information it does have to those two bodies, so that they can opine as quickly as is feasible on the safety of those convictions. It is right that that is the first step we take. We will wait to see the judgment. In the meantime, we will get on with designing a redress scheme for all those who were not convicted but who suffered as a result of the Capture software.
I thank the Minister for sharing his statement in advance.
Honest, hard-working people had their lives totally wrecked by this scandal, and it is a great shame that it happened over a number of years, and that there was dither and delay over it for far too many years. I welcome the steps that he has outlined this afternoon. I welcome the suggestions made to him about an independent body for compensation. However, this scandal must never happen again. One way this Chamber could ensure that is the case is by having a duty of candour on officials, as the Liberal Democrats have called for. I hope he will give that serious consideration, to stop such a scandal ever happening again. Finally, there is a real opportunity, should the Government choose to take it, to set up an office for whistleblowers through the Employment Rights Bill, which is currently making its way through the House.
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his opening remarks. In particular, I share his anger, and that of the whole House, at how sub-postmasters were treated, whether as victims of the Horizon scandal or of the Capture software issues, which was clearly appalling. We must do everything we can to ensure that can never be repeated. He will understand that yesterday was the last day of hearings in Sir Wyn Williams’s inquiry. Sir Wyn Williams has said that he will publish his conclusions and recommendations within months. The Government will then work at pace to consider his recommendations and to publish our response within six months of that date. The specific ideas that the hon. Gentleman has referenced in that context will, I am sure, be part of the Government’s deliberations. He will forgive me if I wait at this stage for Sir Wyn Williams’s recommendations. We will then look at those recommendations and come to the House with the future steps we intend to take.
I welcome the Minister’s announcement on the Green Paper on the future of the Post Office. It is also welcome that the Government are taking additional steps towards financial redress for the postmasters who suffered such horrendous treatment in that scandal. I am concerned that this new deal for postmasters comes at the expense of post office branches across the country, including at Kensington Park in my constituency. Does he agree that there should not be a choice between giving postmasters a fair deal and losing essential high street services? Will he please meet me to discuss that further?
I would be happy to meet my hon. Friend. I recognise that post offices are a fundamental part of every one of our communities in the UK. That is one of the reasons why the Government have been clear that we adhere to and support the commitment on various access requirements to ensure that every community has good access to post office facilities. On directly managed branches, she will know that no decision on the future of all those branches, or indeed any individual branch, has been taken. I recognise that she has particular concerns about the branch in Kennington, and I am happy to meet her to discuss that.
I am glad that the Minister chose to reference the excellent work done on behalf of the postmasters by Lord Beamish, who is better known to many of us as our former colleague Kevan Jones. I hope that the whole House will join me in congratulating him on his appointment today as the new Chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee—an appointment, by the way, by his fellow Committee members, which is exactly as it should be done.
May I gently ask the Minister—this may go slightly outwith his Department’s responsibilities—whether there is any news or progress about the question of prosecutions for criminal conspiracy? That is something I have raised before. That is one thing that might act as a deterrent to this sort of terrible behaviour by a gilded, self-selecting class of people who think that their institutional importance is greater than truth or justice.
I am certainly happy to echo the right hon. Member’s congratulations to the noble Lord Beamish and to emphasise again my appreciation for his work on championing the concerns of those who are victims of the Capture software. He is one of those whom we will continue to work with going forward as we put together redress and think about these issues more generally.
Specifically on prosecutions, the right hon. Member may be aware that the Metropolitan police has confirmed that it has established a unit and is looking at a number of issues to do with how the Post Office operated. He will understand that, quite rightly, Ministers are not involved in those decisions, but the information that I have set out is publicly available. We will obviously all have to wait to see what happens in that regard.
My hon. Friend rightly said that there is an urgent need to speed up the redress process. What we know is that while £500 million has been paid out in claims, £267 million has been spent on lawyers. Nigel Railton told us that between 80% and 85% of all claims are simple cases, so does my hon. Friend agree that there is a real opportunity to automate the process so that we handle claims far more quickly?
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. Specifically on what further action we can take to speed up the process, one of the reasons why we introduced a fixed-sum payment of £75,000 for those whose claims had been accepted as part of the Horizon shortfall scheme was deliberately to offer an option of faster redress for victims.
On the question of automation, we encouraged Nigel Railton and the senior leadership at the Post Office to look at what further steps they can take to speed up the consideration of claims under the Horizon shortfall scheme, where there is particular pressure given the numbers that are still coming forward. I welcome the fact that they are coming forward, but we need faster action to get through them and to support all those whose claims are being accepted to get redress under the Horizon shortfall scheme.
Recently I met a couple of constituents—Tony Hibberd, a former sub-postmaster, and Colin Chesterton, a solicitor who is representing him pro bono. During our meeting, they raised concerns about the delays and inadequacies of the Horizon shortfall scheme. My constituent has waited in excess of four years since his claim application and 14 years since he was forced to lose his livelihood. What percentage of the claimants to the Horizon shortfall scheme have received an interim payment, and what percentage have had their requests settled in full?
If the hon. Gentleman writes to me with the details of that case, I will happily look at where it is at. The Horizon shortfall scheme has been run by the Post Office for some time. Initially, it was closed and then it was reopened under pressure. All those who came forward in the initial tranche of claims have had them assessed and offers have been made. The majority of the compensation that was offered has been paid out. When the scheme was reopened, there was a substantial increase in the numbers of people applying for redress. Indeed, we are still seeing people coming forward now and we would expect, as a result of all the letters that we have asked the Post Office to send out to sub-postmasters who might have a claim, that there will be further substantial claims under the Horizon shortfall scheme. With the Post Office, we are looking at what more we can do to speed up the assessment of those claims.
The fixed sum payment that we announced in September of some £75,000, which sub-postmasters can choose to accept in full and final settlement of their claim, has been welcomed and accepted by a significant number of sub-postmasters. That is helping to speed up redress under the Horizon shortfall scheme. I accept that there is more to do, and we are looking at what else we can do in that regard.
I welcome my hon. Friend’s statement and the fact that he is putting more resources and manpower into processing people’s claims. But I wonder where the complexity of these claims is coming from. Are we asking for too much information from people in the first place? I watched the evidence of Sir Alan Bates at the Business and Trade Committee, and I have read some of the cases in the news. In one case, a person with breast cancer had their compensation reduced and I thought, hang on a minute, this may be going too far and is a bit churlish. Just how much information is being gone through in order to process these cases? I wonder if we may want to go back and look at that. I have spoken to the Minister about this, and I know that he wants to speed the process up as much as possible. Is it possible that we could streamline the process?
I have looked at this issue, which came up at the Select Committee. We write out to ask for further information in order to be able to justify the payment of more compensation, not to query the information that has been provided by sub-postmasters to date. To try to provide reassurance on that point, we are making that explicit in the letters that we send out to sub-postmasters. We are anxious to reduce the stress and concern and, essentially, the trauma that people have gone through already. We do not want that process to be repeated, if at all possible, during the compensation process. Asking for more information is designed to enable us to offer more and fairer compensation to the individuals concerned.
I am listening in detail about the processes you are going through looking for more information on Horizon. You have mentioned Capture, which goes back to 1992—30 years ago. You have mentioned a lack of information and that you are looking for more detail—
Order. Three times, “you”—it needs to be “he” or “the Minister”, please.
Bad habits—must get rid of them. My apologies, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am concerned about the Capture system, which is more than 30 years old and had 19 different versions. We do not know who used it, and we do not know who has been convicted for it. The people who have been convicted are probably dying every other week just now. The Minister talks about working at pace, but can he make a flying sprint to get to those people urgently, to ensure that investigations are carried out and that compensation deserved is duly received?
The hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly reasonable point—it is something I feel acutely. I have met a number of the sub-postmasters who used the Capture software and were treated very badly as a result by the Post Office, so I am acutely conscious of our collective responsibility to those individuals and their families. Some of the sub-postmasters who used Capture software have already passed away, which only underlines the points he and I have made. I can assure the House that we will work at pace. We are working with the Post Office, and have asked the organisation to go through its records so that we can identify, inasmuch as we can, how many people were potentially victims of Capture. We are also supporting the work of the Criminal Cases Review Commission in looking at whether convictions are safe.
The devastating case of Susan Cain, the mother of my constituent Zoe Stokes, highlights the profound human cost of this scandal. Susan, who ran the post office in Hampton in Arden, was falsely accused of theft, and forced to sell her business and home in order to repay £25,000 to avoid prison. Tragically, she later died from emphysema, which medical evidence links to the immense stress that was caused by these false allegations. Despite her exoneration, her family have been offered just 40% of their claim, with the Post Office refusing to accept responsibility for her illness. What steps is the Minister taking to ensure that the compensation programme for families like Zoe’s is fair and transparent, and fully accounts for the harm caused by this scandal?
I commend my hon. Friend for championing the cause of the family of a sub-postmaster in his constituency. He will forgive me if I do not know the exact compensation scheme that his constituent applied to. However, in general, independent elements are built into each of the compensation schemes to try to ensure that as fair a sum of redress as possible is offered. On the Horizon shortfall scheme in particular, in September we committed to setting up an independent appeals process, and I hope to have more information for the House early next year. We are determined to establish that process to provide a further independent element for that particular scheme.
My constituent Donna is one of the 555. She was audited through Horizon, which found a loss of £186,000. An employee admitted fraud and was later imprisoned, but Donna was made bankrupt for the loss—for not just £186,000, but £250,000, which, of course, she could not pay. It was never challenged; we do not know whether the real amount was £180,000 or £180. She was awarded an interim payment, most of which was taken by the receivers. Now, the amount the receivers took has been taken from the final £75,000 fixed amount, and she has only been offered £20,000, despite losing everything. Will the Minister personally look at Donna’s case and ensure she gets proper redress for this obvious miscarriage of justice?
I would be very happy to receive further information from the hon. Lady, and I will endeavour to reply to her as quickly as I can. I recognise that there are concerns about the fairness of the compensation process. There are complex cases that are still to be settled. We are working at pace to ensure, where we can, that those cases are settled, particularly with regard to the GLO scheme. We have made it clear that for all the remaining cases that are with us by Christmas, we will be able to get substantial redress paid out to those individuals by the end of March. As I say, if she writes to me I will happily look at her letter.
It is known as the Horizon scandal, but the real scandal is not the failings of software but the action and deeds of individuals and institutions, as Sir Alan Bates said. In that light, I would include the misuse and potential abuse of private prosecutions. Will the Government commit to acting on that?
Yes. My hon. Friend raises a very good point. The Ministry of Justice has made clear its concern about this issue and is set to bring forward a consultation document early in the new year, I believe, to address exactly that concern.
I welcome the Minister’s statement, but does he recognise the frustration that many, many sub-postmasters still experience? We put legislation through this place months ago on the quashing of convictions. The compensation scheme has been in place for many years now, yet well over half of the individuals still have not had their cases dealt with. I met some of them when they came over for the inquiry a few weeks ago, and there is real fear among them that the Post Office is still in denial and is therefore still reluctant to proceed with these claims. Two people gave me examples. One has been asked for information that he does not have because the Post Office seized all the information. For the other, the delay is caused because she meticulously kept records and now the Post Office says it has so many records to go through that it will take some time. Does the Minister understand why many people feel that, despite the decisions of this House and the commitment of Ministers, there is still reluctance on the part of the Post Office to deal fairly with these people?
I understand completely the frustration of sub-postmasters who have waited so long to get redress and have their cases heard. The right hon. Gentleman will understand that there are four Horizon scandal compensation schemes. In the case of the convictions that were overturned by this House this year, the fourth compensation scheme, the Horizon convictions redress scheme, was set up on 30 July and has begun paying out significant sums of money to sub-postmasters who have had their convictions overturned—some £79 million, as of the end of November. As I said earlier, the MOJ has sought to contact all individuals who had their convictions overturned as a result of that legislation. It has said that it will complete its work by the end of January and I understand that it is on course to do so, but I am acutely aware of the right hon. Gentleman’s point. It is why we continue to look, as much as we can, at what further efforts we can take to speed the delivery of compensation.
Last but by no means least, I call Emma Foody.
I welcome the Minister’s statement and his commitment to providing redress as soon as possible. One of my constituents, a former sub-postmaster who wished to remain anonymous, attended a surgery recently to share their experience. Accused of stealing over £40,000 due to the Horizon system, they lost their home, their job and their business, and were forced to pay thousands from their and their family’s savings. Compounding the financial loss was the reputational loss: ostracised by the community, experiencing racial abuse and forced to move away—appalling in its own right but, as we have heard today, just one of many, many examples. Does the Minister agree that any redress must address not just the financial loss, but the further damage done to people’s lives as a result of the actions of the Post Office?
I am sure I speak for the whole House when I say that I wish the experience that my hon. Friend has described was just an isolated example, but sadly there have been far too many similar examples of what sub-postmasters have been through. We absolutely must get more speed into the compensation process, and we are very much working on that, but we will also look carefully at the recommendations of the Sir Wyn Williams inquiry when they are published next year. His work will be crucial in helping to ensure that nothing like this ever happens again.
Bill Presented
Public Procurement (British Goods and Services) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Sarah Champion presented a Bill to make provision about public procurement in respect of British goods and services; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 24 January 2025, and to be printed (Bill 153).
(1 week, 1 day ago)
Commons ChamberOn a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I seek your guidance on behalf of the independent alliance MPs in relation to our correspondence with Ministers.
We have written to the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and the Home Secretary on numerous occasions without receiving a reply. On 5 August, we wrote to the Home Secretary asking for a meeting following the far-right riots. We have yet to receive a response. On 25 October, we wrote to the Chancellor asking her to abolish the two-child benefit cap and to reverse the cuts in the winter fuel allowance. We received a holding reply which read
“we have received your submission to the Autumn Budget process”,
but no further reply has been received.
On 18 November, we wrote to the Prime Minister asking him what legal advice he had received on the definition of genocide in relation to the situation in Gaza, and what action he was taking to prevent genocide. We have not received a response. On 18 November, we also wrote to the Attorney General asking him what legal advice he had offered the Prime Minister on the definition of genocide in relation to the situation in Gaza. We have not received a response to that either. On 21 November, we wrote to the Prime Minister asking him if the Government would enforce the arrest warrants from the International Criminal Court, and what action he was taking to prevent genocide. Again, we have not received a response.
We wrote those letters on behalf of our constituents, and they deserve answers to our questions. Could you please advise us, Madam Deputy Speaker, on the best way to secure a reply to our letters, and to ensure that Ministers reply to letters that we may write in the future?
I thank the hon. Member for giving notice of his point of order. He has put his concerns on the record, and I am sure that those on the Government Front Bench have been listening to them carefully. If he and his right hon. and hon. Friends have not done so already, I recommend that they make contact with the private offices of the Ministers concerned. If that does not lead to prompt replies, a number of options are open to them, including tabling questions, both written and oral, and seeking an Adjournment debate. I suggest that the Table Office could be very helpful in giving them further ideas as to how they can best hold Ministers to account.
(1 week, 1 day ago)
Commons ChamberA Ten Minute Rule Bill is a First Reading of a Private Members Bill, but with the sponsor permitted to make a ten minute speech outlining the reasons for the proposed legislation.
There is little chance of the Bill proceeding further unless there is unanimous consent for the Bill or the Government elects to support the Bill directly.
For more information see: Ten Minute Bills
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to establish an independent Office of the Whistleblower to protect whistleblowers and whistleblowing; to make provision for the Office of the Whistleblower to set, monitor and enforce standards for the management of whistleblowing cases, to provide disclosure and advice services, to direct whistleblowing investigations and to order redress of detriment suffered by whistleblowers; and for connected purposes.
So it is quite a small Bill.
If I may, I shall start with a couple of thank yous. All too often, being a whistleblower is a thankless task. Whistleblowers risk so much: their personal standing, their reputations, and their homes. I think that this ten-minute rule motion, coming so soon after the statement that we heard from my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Business and Trade, highlights the importance of those who are willing to speak up and draw attention to wrongdoing when they see it. I should like—on behalf of the House, if it will indulge me—to thank those people who have the bravery to stand up, say that there is wrongdoing, and put themselves at risk.
I also want to pay a short tribute to my immediate predecessor in this place, Jo Gideon, who now serves as the chairperson of WhistleblowersUK. She did a lot in this House to progress the issue, and it is a testament to her that progress was made in the last Parliament. I hope that we can continue it in this place.
I am grateful to the Government for the work that they have been doing on improving current arrangements for whistleblowing. The duty of candour Bill, which will place on our public servants the requirement to speak out and tell the truth when an investigation is happening, is an important part of shining a light on some of the dark recesses of our public sector when things go wrong. I am also grateful to the Government for recognising that whistleblowing can be important for tackling sexual harassment, and for the work that they are doing on the Employment Rights Bill.
The whole purpose of whistleblowing is to try to prevent things from happening in the first place. All too often we end up in circumstances and situations in which something terrible happens, and somebody stands up and gives evidence about what has happened. As we have heard over many hours of debate in this place, it then costs an awful lot of money to redress the wrongdoing that has happened. In such circumstances, not having in place an effective and efficient whistleblowing system that is available to anybody who sees wrongdoing costs taxpayers a huge amount of money.
The current framework for whistleblowing in this country is very much looked at through the lens of employment law. Technically, someone is considered a whistleblower only if they are employed by, and have a contractual relationship with, the organisation about which they are making a disclosure. That means that the remedy and redress that is available to the whistleblower normally ends up in an employment tribunal, which looks at the occupational and work-related loss that the individual has suffered, and not necessarily at some of the social and reputational damage that they suffer as a result of being the person who stands up and speaks out. We all know that standing up and speaking out is so important, because it is instilled in new Members of Parliament when we arrive here. We are told that if we see wrongdoing, we have a duty to say something.
Anyone who travels on trains will hear the slogan, “See it. Say It. Sorted.” If people see wrongdoing in life, however, saying something about it is often a risk too far. They might make a disclosure about their workplace, and suddenly they will be put on gardening leave. They find themselves in a situation in which they are labelled as the troublemaker in the organisation. Then they end up down the employment tribunal route, and the issue does not necessarily get dealt with.
One aspect of my Bill that I hope the Government will consider taking forward—if not through this Bill, then perhaps by bringing forward other Bills—is the proposed office of the whistleblower, which was supported by my party in opposition and in amendments tabled to the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act 2023. Such an office has been talked about in this House; the hon. Member for Torbay (Steve Darling), who is no longer in his place, said in a previous debate that it would have helped us to prevent some of the scandals that we have seen in this country. The proposed office of the whistleblower would provide a genuine levelling effect for people who stand up and say the right thing, and who then suddenly find themselves opposed by the legal and financial resources of huge companies that seek to discredit them, isolate them and put them in a position in which their reputation and home life struggle. With an office of the whistleblower, we could remove the David versus Goliath situation and genuinely ensure that speaking up and doing the right thing counts.
I would hope that the proposed office of the whistleblower would be a designated body to which people can report when they have made a disclosure. Currently, 88 different regulatory bodies can take a whistleblowing declaration. In fact, Members of Parliament are prescribed people: whistleblowers can make a declaration to us without necessarily incurring a penalty. Very few of us know that, and very few of us are able to progress a disclosure to the next stage. The proposed office of the whistleblower would be required to collate data on where whistleblowing declarations are being made from public bodies and other organisations. Crucially, that would tell us where there is a problem. I am sure that even today there will be employees in the NHS, the civil service, other public sector organisations and the private sector who make a disclosure to a manager, while yesterday somebody else made a disclosure to a different manager about the same problem. But no one is collating that data to say, “Actually, this is a problem in a particular sector; we should probably look at this and take some action now and prevent a genuine wrongdoing, malpractice, malfeasance or even death from occurring.”
Our current whistleblowing arrangements are far too reactive. They rely on somebody standing up and speaking out, and they rely on that person taking a risk after an event has happened. It becomes almost a situation of saying, “Here is the evidence to correct the wrongdoing that has occurred.” We need to change whistleblowing culture in our country so that when something is happening and we see it or somebody else sees it, they feel compelled and also supported to make that declaration. That is very important because quite often the people who are doing the wrongdoing in the first place—the people who are undertaking malpractice, malfeasance or corruption—do it because they think they can get away with it. They do it because they think nobody is watching. They do it because they think the risk is less than the reward they can personally derive from a cover-up, fraud or any form of non-criminal activity. By making it clear that we now empower individuals—citizens of the country—to stand up and make a declaration, and be protected and supported in doing so, those who want to do wrong will think again. That will prevent our having to spend millions of pounds on redress—money that we can put to better use in this country.
I hope that this short Bill, although it has a long title, will go some way to rebalancing power in this country by allowing those brave souls—who often take on the mighty giants—the opportunity and the support they need to do the right thing, knowing we have got their backs.
Question put and agreed to.
Ordered,
That Gareth Snell, Liam Byrne, Robin Swann, Richard Foord, Sarah Champion, Mr Jonathan Brash, Tonia Antoniazzi, Dr Allison Gardner, Mr Alex Barros-Curtis, Jim Shannon, Jodie Gosling, Will Stone and Anna Dixon present the Bill.
Gareth Snell accordingly presented the Bill.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 25 April 2025, and to be printed (Bill 152).
(1 week, 1 day ago)
Commons ChamberWith this it will be convenient to consider clause 2 stand part.
I remind Members that in Committee they should not address the Chair as Madam Deputy Speaker. Please use our names when addressing the Chair. “Madam Chair”, “Chair” and “Madam Chairman” are also acceptable.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Madam Chair.
As I said on Second Reading, this is a straightforward Bill with only one substantive clause and a singular aim: to extend by five years the provisions agreed by this House in the Lords Spiritual (Women) Act 2015. It will mean that vacancies among the Lords Spiritual continue to be filled by the most senior eligible female bishop, if there is one in post, in preference to the most senior male bishop.
The Government introduced the Bill at the request of the Church of England, as was the case in 2015. As we witnessed on Second Reading last month, the Bill has widespread cross-party support, and I am pleased that the spirit of co-operation has continued. I note that no amendments have been tabled to frustrate, challenge or change the aim of the Bill.
The purpose of clause 1 is to extend, by an additional five years, the arrangements made by the 2015 Act. Without this clause, the arrangements would cease to have effect on 17 May 2025. The Bill has been introduced to extend the provisions until 18 May 2030. Clause 2 sets out the commencement and short title of the Bill.
And there we are. It is clear that this Bill commands broad consensus, and I am grateful to colleagues for their approach to this legislation. I very much look forward to the rest of today’s debate, and to seeing the Bill on the statute book soon.
It is a privilege to speak again on this Bill. As the Minister outlined, by extending the Lords Spiritual (Women) Act 2015 by five years, this Bill does exactly what it says on the tin. It is very quick and straightforward.
I note that the Church of England introduced its own legislation in 2014 to allow for the ordination of women bishops, and this Bill stems from that. The 2015 Act was introduced by the last Government, and we look forward to seeing its quick progress today.
Overall, the 2015 Act has been successful in ensuring that women have a fair chance of sitting alongside their male counterparts in the other place as one of the Lords Spiritual. Five of the six women bishops were appointed under the Act’s provisions, showing that we have progressed since then.
When further bishops retire, the Bill will give more opportunities for even more women to progress, depending on the situation in each eligible diocese. I think it is good for our Parliament to continue pushing this forward.
Does the Minister foresee another five-year extension? When the measure was first introduced, it was to last for 10 years. How many appointments does she feel are needed before the 2015 Act becomes redundant in and of itself?
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his comments. He asked whether the Government foresee extending the Act past these five years, and we will review the situation at that time. As the Opposition know, we are honouring what the Church of England has asked us to do. Since the 2015 Act received Royal Assent, we have seen six female bishops take their seats earlier than they otherwise would have done. We will have to review the situation and see what happens with this five-year extension.
As was outlined on Second Reading, we will shortly see the value of this legislation again, when we welcome Debbie Sellin, the Bishop of Peterborough, to the Lords Spiritual. We can already see and feel the benefits of the 2015 Act, and we believe that this extension will be positive. We look forward to seeing what comes out of it.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair.
Bill reported, without amendment.
Bill, not amended in the Committee, considered.
Third Reading
King’s consent signified.
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
I will say, first of all, what a remarkably efficient Committee stage that was. In that tradition, which has now been set, I will keep my remarks brief.
The Bill will continue the positive effects seen from the Lords Spiritual (Women) Act 2015 for a further five years. The 2015 Act followed the very welcome decision made the year before by the Church of England to allow women to be ordained as bishops, and the legislation passed the following year began to allow ordained women bishops to enter the other place as Lords Spiritual earlier than would otherwise have been the case.
I want to take the opportunity to thank all the officials who have worked on the Bill for their support to me and to the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Ms Oppong-Asare), as well as to my right hon. Friend, the Leader of the House of Lords.
I thank all those who spoke on Second Reading and today: my hon. Friends the Members for Stockport (Navendu Mishra) and Newcastle-under-Lyme (Adam Jogee), as well as the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney) and the shadow Paymaster General, the right hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Holden), who showed that wonderful talent today of being succinct in the passage of the Bill. In all seriousness, I wish to put on the record my thanks for the spirit in which the official Opposition have approached the Bill. We are grateful for that. Finally, I give particular thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Marsha De Cordova) in her position as the Second Church Estates Commissioner.
During the passage of the 2015 Act, the Father of the House, the right hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), described the legislation as “unopposable”. I am pleased to say that nearly a decade later, that sentiment continues to ring true. I commend the Bill to the House.
I thank the Paymaster General for the spirit in which he has spoken today, as well as the entire Bill team behind this. We should let matters rest there and let the Bill proceed as quickly as possible.
I and my Liberal Democrat colleagues are supportive of the extension of this legislation and its ambition to make our second Chamber a more equal and representative place. I am glad to see the legislation move so swiftly through Parliament and I plan to play my part in that.
We are glad of the intention of the Bill to address the stark gender imbalance that exists among our Lords Spiritual. We are supportive of that aim and welcome steps to ensure that Parliament better reflects the country it serves.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed, without amendment.
(1 week, 1 day ago)
Commons ChamberI remind Members that in Committee, they should not address the Chair as Madam Deputy Speaker. Please use our names when addressing the Chair. “Madam Chair”, “Chair” and “Madam Chairman” are also acceptable.
Clause 1
Provision of Loans or other Financial Assistance to Ukraine
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
With this it will be convenient to consider:
Clause 2 stand part.
New clause 1—Reports on loans or other financial assistance to Ukraine—
“(1) The Secretary of State must—
(a) prepare reports on the operation of assistance provided in accordance with section 1(a),
(b) lay a copy of each report before Parliament.
(2) Each report must provide details of the amount of—
(a) monies provided by the United Kingdom to Ukraine under section 1;
(b) the United Kingdom’s share of the principal loan amount and interest accrued under the scheme; and
(c) receipts of extraordinary profits from the Russian immobilised sovereign assets under the scheme.
(3) Each report must also provide a summary of discussions between His Majesty’s Government and other G7 governments about discussions on any subsequent arrangements that are supplemental to or modify or replace the arrangements referred to in section 1(a), including any discussions concerning—
(a) the range of Russian assets to which the arrangements might apply, and
(b) the use of those assets.
(4) The first report must be laid within the period of 6 months of the passing of this Act.
(5) Each subsequent report must be laid within the period of 6 months beginning with the day on which the previous report was laid.
(6) The duty under subsection (1) ceases to have effect 12 months after the arrangements referred to in section 1(a) or any subsequent arrangements of the kind referred to in section 1(b) cease to operate.”
This new clause establishes an annual reporting requirement relating to the UK share of loans to Ukraine and receipts from the extraordinary profits from the freezing of Russian state assets and to any G7 discussions to extend the arrangements.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Madam Chair.
We had a very constructive debate on Second Reading of the Bill. In particular, I wish to express my appreciation for the universal support that the House has shown for the provision of this vital funding. It is clearly a subject close to the hearts of many of us across the House. I look forward to further discussion on this important Bill today.
As the Committee is aware, the extraordinary revenue acceleration is an ambitious scheme designed to provide Ukraine with a total of $50 billion in additional support, to be repaid by the extraordinary profits generated on Russian sovereign assets held in the European Union. The United Kingdom’s contribution of £2.26 billion is joined by pledges from the United States, the European Union, Canada and Japan.
The Bill contains only two clauses. They are both straightforward. Clause 1 grants the Government the legal spending authority to fulfil the commitment we have made to provide Ukraine with the UK’s contribution to the extraordinary revenue acceleration. The clause empowers the Treasury or the Secretary of State to provide the Government of Ukraine with funds approved by Parliament as a result of the extraordinary revenue acceleration loans for Ukraine scheme, or
“any subsequent arrangements that are supplemental to or modify or replace those arrangements.”
Payments made under clause 1 will be those that are necessary to perform the UK’s commitment to the ERA scheme.
In of course welcoming the Government’s measures, I note that the Minister referred to the extraordinary interest from the frozen Russian assets. Have the Government permanently set their mind against any possible actual seizure of the assets themselves, perhaps in agreement with other G7 members or EU members?
I thank the right hon. Member for his contribution. As we debated on Second Reading, this is a commitment across G7 partners and with the European Union to take action on the proceeds of the assets that are held. For other complicated legal reasons, there is no intention to seize those assets at this time.
I thank the Minister for his acknowledgement of the cross-party support for this measure, but to back up my colleague, the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Sir Julian Lewis), the $3 billion from the UK is generous and will make a difference, but the $300 billion in frozen assets would be utterly game changing. I accept the Minister’s argument at the moment about some of the more complicated legal issues. I know that he accepts the very serious situation that the Ukrainians are facing on the front, defending all of us. May I encourage him merely to continue to look at this issue and see whether he can work with G7 colleagues to find a way of unpicking the difficulties that he has highlighted?
I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s encouragement, which I take in good faith. He will know that these matters are multilateral and subject to negotiation with other allies and G7 colleagues, but he will also know, as I am sure the whole House does, that we go into 2025 with a strength of resolve across those G7 countries to do all that we can to help Ukraine continue to mount its defence against the illegal invasion from Russia.
Any other payments beyond the extraordinary revenue acceleration loans to Ukraine or any other country that are unrelated to the ERA scheme are not covered by the provisions of the Bill; this money is in addition to other grants and payments that have been referred to in the House previously.
The clause contains provision for the UK to provide funding towards subsequent arrangements that are supplemental to, modify or replace the ERA. This provision allows for flexibility in the unlikely event that the scheme itself should significantly alter. It is not intended to be used without this change in circumstances.
Clause 2 simply sets out the short title of the Bill.
I thank the Minister for opening the debate. The Conservative Government were a vociferous advocate for mobilising Russia’s frozen sovereign assets to support Ukraine. We drove G7 and European partners to try to coalesce around the most ambitious solution possible to achieve that outcome. The announcement on 22 October marked progress on that journey and is a step in the right direction. We understand that the Government’s position is that the United Kingdom’s contribution should be earmarked for supporting Ukraine’s military expenditure, including on air defence, artillery and other equipment. The Opposition would support that. We need to persevere with our efforts to put Ukraine in the strongest possible position to counter Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion.
Matters since Second Reading have been fast moving, so let me pose some questions to the Minister. Since Second Reading, the United States has given Ukraine $20 billion, funded by the profits of frozen Russian assets. That economic support forms a significant part of the overall $50 billion package agreed by G7 member nations and announced in June. The US Treasury said that it had transferred the $20 billion to a World Bank fund, where it will be available for Ukraine to draw. Money handled by the World Bank cannot be used for military purposes.
The US Administration had initially hoped to dedicate half the money to military aid, but that would have required approval from Congress, which the President did not seek. Perhaps the Minister can update the House on what discussions the UK Government have had with the US Administration, Canada and the European Union about the use of funds provided for military purposes. Are any strings attached to the funds that will be provided by the UK? As the US has already provided its share of moneys anticipated in the G7 package, can the Minister advise the House on the timing of the UK’s contribution? I think it was made clear on Second Reading, but it would be helpful to have an update, given the move by the US since then.
As the Minister and the Government have advised, the loans that the UK will pay will form part of the extraordinary revenue acceleration loan agreement by the G7. The loans that the UK will provide will be repaid by the Ukraine loan co-operation mechanism, established by the European Union under regulation 2024/2773 on 24 October. The ability of the UK to have its loans repaid depends in large part on a decision by the European Union to maintain its freeze on Russian assets. The EU renews Russian sanctions every six months, and efforts to extend that to a three-year review cycle were rebuffed by Hungary earlier this year. Will the Minister confirm that there is a risk, in the event that the EU does not extend its sanctions on Russia, that the costs of the loan will be borne by UK taxpayers, and what mitigations he might consider if that situation arises?
Finally, the EU controls more than two thirds of Russia’s $300 billion of sovereign assets that have been frozen by western allies following Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Of those EU-held frozen assets, 90% are held by the Belgian-based financial services company Euroclear. The profits from the EU-held assets, estimated to be between $2.6 billion and $3.2 billion per year, have been used to arm Ukraine and finance its post-war reconstruction. We understand that the EU’s top diplomat, Kaja Kallas, said in an interview with The Guardian on 12 December that the European Union should use the billions in frozen state assets to aid Ukraine. She emphasised that Ukraine had a legitimate claim for compensation, and described the Russian assets held in the EU as
“a tool to pressure Russia.”
The Minister responded to earlier interventions, but can he confirm the UK Government’s position? Has he discussed the matter with the EU and Belgium, and does he have any plans for the UK to go further on the use of those assets?
I want to speak to new clause 1, which I have signed, but I first want to reiterate my support for the Government and the Bill. As I said on Second Reading, it is absolutely right and proper that Russia pays for the damage it has done to Ukraine and its people. The Bill is an important first step in providing that financial assistance from Russian assets to Ukraine. Echoing the comments from around the Chamber, we need to move with allies towards a position of seizing Russian assets, but it is a positive first step that we are using the proceeds of the interest on those assets to support Ukraine.
On Second Reading, I mentioned that
“Canada has passed the Special Economic Measures (Russia) Regulations, which collects data on Russian assets, freezes them and publishes the value, which currently stands at 135 billion Canadian dollars”.—[Official Report, 20 November 2024; Vol. 757, c. 312.]
I asked if the Government could disclose Russian assets held in the UK in the same way. New clause 1 goes a long way to providing that. It would ask the Government to lay a copy of a report before Parliament showing under the Act, as it will hopefully become,
“monies provided by the United Kingdom to Ukraine”
to the following level of disclosure:
“the United Kingdom’s share of the principal loan amount and interest accrued under the scheme”
and
“receipts of extraordinary profits from the Russian immobilised sovereign assets under the scheme.”
It would to an extent mirror what our close ally Canada has done. Although I do not expect to divide on new clause 1, I would appreciate it if the Minister would comment on how he will report progress to the House, disclose the level of Russian state assets that are here, and state how much of the interest accrued from those assets has been mobilised to support Ukraine in its war efforts.
I thank the hon. Member for Leeds Central and Headingley (Alex Sobel) for outlining some of the things in the new clause we have tabled. I want to outline in some detail what is in new clause 1 and what we hope to achieve with it, and hopefully the Minister will be able to respond and outline some of his thoughts around reporting in particular.
New clause 1 would impose a reporting requirement on the Secretary of State to keep Parliament informed about three critical aspects of our support to Ukraine under the scheme. The reports would detail the monetary support provided to Ukraine, including the amounts disbursed and how that fits into the broader multilateral agreement. That ensures transparency and allows Members and the public to understand the precise scale of our financial commitment. The reports would also provide clarity regarding our share of the principal loan amount and any interest accrued. Such information is vital for proper scrutiny and public trust, ensuring that funds allocated are achieving their intended purpose.
Finally, and most importantly, the reports would shed light on any extraordinary profits arising from immobilised Russian sovereign assets under the scheme. While we cannot legislate here to seize those assets directly, the provision ensures that the question does not simply fade away. By requiring regular reports, we maintain focus on the issue and keep pressure on the Government to engage with our G7 partners. If, at some future point, there is an opportunity to use Russian state assets more directly for Ukraine’s recovery, Parliament will be fully informed and ready to act.
The reports must highlight any discussions the UK Government have had with other G7 countries about future steps, including expanding the range of assets considered or using them in new ways. That ensures ongoing diplomatic transparency and accountability. Parliament will know if the Government are pushing for more ambitious measures internationally or if they are hesitating while others lead. In practice, the first report would appear within six months of the Bill’s passage, with subsequent reports every six months until one year after the relevant international arrangements cease to operate.
The structured timeline guarantees sustained oversight, rather than just a one-off glance. Given the complexity and duration of the challenges Ukraine faces, such ongoing engagement is critical. It sets a framework for continued scrutiny, encourages more ambitious future action and underscores that, despite the Bill’s limited scope, our resolve to hold Russia accountable remains unwavering. Through those measures, we would ensure that Parliament remains fully informed and ready to stand by our Ukrainian allies when the opportunity to take bolder steps arises.
It is a pleasure to speak in support of the Bill. The battle for Ukraine is one of the defining issues of our age. In February 2022, Putin launched an illegal and reckless invasion of a sovereign European democracy. Seeing that happen in the third decade of the 21st century was a sobering moment; we had seen nothing like it on European soil since world war two. It put beyond any doubt the revanchist and irredentist ambitions of the Russian regime, and the need for all freedom-loving democratic peoples to resist those ambitions at all costs.
The Ukrainian people are fighting not just for Ukraine, but for all of us—for the values we hold dear: democracy, human rights, the rule of law, and freedom from global gangsters like Putin. By helping Ukraine to stand strong against Russian aggression, we are sending a clear message to dictators and autocrats around the world that we will not tolerate violations of national sovereignty or the use of force to change borders.
Last week I met Ukrainian refugees in my constituency who conveyed not just their gratitude for our country’s steadfast support for their war action against Russia, but their sense of desperation because many of their visas run out early next year. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government should act quickly to give those people the certainty that they will continue to be welcome in the UK for the foreseeable future?
I agree with my hon. Friend about visas. We need to do everything we can to support the Ukrainian people, whether here in the UK or abroad.
Our support for Ukraine is an investment not just in its future but in the security and stability of Europe and the world. Russia’s war against Ukraine has not only devastated the lives of millions, but challenged the very foundations of the international rules-based order. The brutality of Russia’s actions, the targeting of civilians and the displacement of more than 8 million Ukrainians are stark reminders of the atrocities that war brings to ordinary people. This is a tragedy for the Russian people, too. Many tens of thousands of Russian troops have been needlessly killed in Ukraine—victims of the vainglorious and deranged ambitions of their leader. Our quarrel is not with ordinary Russians; it is with the regime that oppresses and lies to them.
Ukraine, meanwhile, has shown resilience, courage and an unwavering determination to protect its land, its people and its freedom. President Zelensky and the Ukrainian people have stood firm in the face of adversity. As I have said before, they are fighting not just for Ukraine, but for all of us. Let us make no mistake: if we do not send the weapons and financial support that the Ukrainians need to fight this war, we will one day have to send our sons and daughters to confront Putin and his regime.
I am proud to say that our unwavering support for Ukraine unites Members on both sides of the House, and it has united our country, too. I am very proud to walk around my Livingston constituency and see Ukrainian flags in windows and gardens as a sign of our solidarity. From providing military aid to offering humanitarian assistance, and from imposing sanctions on Russia to offering refuge to those fleeing war, we have acted with purpose and resolve, and many British people, including individuals in this House, have opened their doors to Ukrainian refugees.
The UK has provided £450 million in humanitarian assistance since the start of this full-scale invasion, including £20 million to double this year’s support for Ukraine’s energy system, and £40 million for stabilisation and early recovery, which the Foreign Secretary announced in Kyiv in September. The Labour Government have stepped up for Ukraine. The UK will deliver £3 billion of military aid to Ukraine every year for as long as it is needed—their fight is our fight. The UK’s military, financial, diplomatic and political support for Ukraine is ironclad. The Bill provides the Government with the spending authority to enable the UK to provide the Ukrainians with financial assistance, as part of the G7 extraordinary revenue acceleration loans to Ukraine scheme, which is an important part of this effort. It represents an advance of approximately $50 billion, repaid from the extraordinary profits made on immobilised Russian sovereign assets held in the UK.
We must continue to stand with Ukraine, confront Russian aggression, and pursue Putin for his war crimes. Our response must be one of strength, resilience and unity for as long as it takes.
At a time of existential threat to Ukraine, I have been heartened by the tone from across the House towards the Ukrainian people. It is critical at this moment in history that this House and all European Governments step up and do not give up. While I welcome the details of this short Bill, we should be focusing on the untapped countermeasure and counter-offensive that is at our disposal. Like a number of colleagues, I gently say to the Minister that we should think about the use of frozen Russian assets to support Ukraine in its non-violent economic and political reconstruction. The UN General Assembly has already endorsed an international mechanism for compensating Ukraine, but we cannot wait for the war to be over before we enact that countermeasure. Back in 2022, Ukraine lost 29% of its GDP, so if it only receives its compensation at the end of the war, that will be far too late.
It is a pleasure to speak in support of this Bill, and to pay tribute to the Government for their support for Ukraine and to the consensus across the House that Ukraine must be supported against the barbaric and illegal invasion of a sovereign nation, as my hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Gregor Poynton) said. The invasion of one European state by another in February 2022 was something I never thought I would see in my lifetime—we all thought that had been consigned to the history books, where it belongs. I am very pleased that we are backing the Ukrainian people in their struggle, and I hope that in time, the Russian people can vote in free, fair and democratic elections to choose their own path.
I also pay tribute to the community of Northumberland, who have come together to welcome families from Ukraine in Hexham, in Riding Mill, and in other towns and villages across my constituency. When I am out and about in my constituency, I am always struck by the Ukrainian flags that I see, sometimes in the most incongruous places—on country lanes, on the sides of churches and in private homes. It really gives me a renewed optimism to see those flags flying beneath the beautiful Northumbrian sky. One question that has been put to me by constituents, and on which I would like to gently probe the Minister, is the future of the Homes for Ukraine scheme. Many families who have taken in Ukrainian refugees have asked me to pursue clarity on that scheme, so I would be grateful if the Minister could give some assurance about it, or some timetable for it.
Ultimately, this short Bill is needed to promote and protect one of our sovereign democratic allies, to protect our institutions, and—as my hon. Friend the Member for Livingston said—to avoid the need for further conflict in the years to come. Putin’s war machine could quite easily continue to impinge on our lives and on people’s lives across the rest of Europe.
I would endorse the comments that have been made by colleagues. I think we sometimes need a little bit of perspective. In my constituency and in Tayside and Fife—the hon. Member for Cowdenbeath and Kirkcaldy (Melanie Ward) will be well aware of this—we have defensive barriers that were built during the second world war. The barriers in Tayside and Fife were built by Polish and, as they now are, Ukrainian soldiers who were standing up to tyranny. They built those defences to defend Scotland, and to defend the rest of the United Kingdom as well. They knew that there is no point in standing up to tyranny just in one corner of Europe; we have to do it throughout Europe. Those defences stand as a testament to the time when the Poles and the Ukrainians stood by us. Now is the time for us to once again stand by them.
I echo the remarks made by the hon. Member for Livingston (Gregor Poynton) about the way that Ukrainians have come to our homes and have enriched our society and our communities. I know they are keen to go home, but we can just give them that little bit of certainty. I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Mike Martin) for his work and that of others on frozen assets. That speaks to the enormous challenge that Ukraine is facing, and that the rest of us are therefore facing at exactly the same time.
I acknowledge the work of the Minister in seeking to untangle those assets. I welcome his remarks—I really do—but some of the administrative burdens are as nothing compared with the burdens that have been carried by Ukrainian troops on the frontline in Kursk, Donbas and elsewhere, and compared with the challenge we will see from conflict and a refugee crisis should that front collapse at any point. I know he gets that, and there is agreement across the Chamber on it, but I think it is worth underlining.
I also welcome the remarks made by the Conservative shadow Minister, the hon. Member for North Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller), about engaging with our European partners on this, because that is pivotal. I fully endorse his remark about where a number of these funds are being kept, and about how if one moves, we all need to move. There is unanimity in this Committee, and I have been struck by the outstanding work done by a number of colleagues, That unanimity and resolve reflect the magnitude of the challenge that each and every one of us faces if we do not stand up to tyranny and secure the future of Europe right now.
I wholeheartedly welcome this Bill, which allows us, alongside our G7 partners, to provide £38.6 billion of loans to Ukraine to be repaid using profits from sanctioned Russian assets, and I wholly support this Government’s commitment to stand unequivocally with Ukraine. I believe that Putin and his cronies should be the ones who pay for the damage they have caused across Ukraine. To that end, while this is a very welcome first step, does the Minister agree that we should be doing all we can within the rule of law to seize frozen Russian assets, both private and state, and use them to finance the reconstruction of Ukraine?
Moreover, may I gently suggest to the Minister that we must secure a swift resolution on the proceeds of the sale of Chelsea football club? In March 2022, Roman Abramovich pledged to sell Chelsea football club and donate the £2.5 billion—nearly seven times the value of the humanitarian assistance that the UK has pledged since the invasion in 2022—to support victims of the war in Ukraine. However, as I think all Members know, two years on from the sale, this has hit a stalemate, and regrettably no money has been delivered to the victims of the conflict.
With that in mind, the Government should commit to a number of recommendations that the campaign group Redress has worked on, and all of which I support. The first recommendation is taking steps to ensure that the proceeds of the sale of Chelsea football club are swiftly transferred to a charitable foundation in the UK, or adopting other existing mechanisms set up to deliver reparations to victims of the conflict. The second is ensuring that a substantial percentage of the funds is used for reparations for victims of the conflict, particularly victims of gross violations of international human rights and humanitarian, such as survivors of conflict-related sexual violence. The third recommendation is to engage Ukrainian civil society, victims and survivors in guiding the repurposing of those funds. The fourth and final recommendation is to establish a working group between the Government, civil society and survivors to ensure that funds are distributed in an effective and timely manner.
I very much welcome the substantial progress that the Government have made in the past few months in standing shoulder to shoulder with the Ukrainian people, including the recent announcement of a new anti-corruption champion, the further designation of vessels in the Russian shadow fleet and increasing collaboration across Government to tackle Putin’s war economy, bearing down on both the Kremlin and the wider network of cronies who enable his unlawful and persistent invasion of Ukraine. As my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central and Headingley (Alex Sobel) said, the Bill is an important step, and I welcome further initiatives to support the Ukrainian people as they continue their struggle to protect their sovereignty and territorial integrity in the face of Putin’s unlawful invasion.
It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West (Phil Brickell). He has demonstrated why he will be such a valuable addition to the Foreign Affairs Committee, and I congratulate him on his election to it. I associate myself with his comments and those of other Members. We often find ourselves disagreeing over the smallest of details, so I am proud that we can all come together on an issue of such magnitude in unity with the people of Ukraine. Long may that cross-party support continue.
Earlier this year, as some Members may know, I had the privilege of visiting Ukraine. I went over with an Estonian charity, driving a couple of military pick-up trucks over from the UK as part of a much larger convoy that went into Kyiv. Those vehicles were handed over to the Ukrainian soldiers, and it brought home that there was not only support and solidarity in this country for Ukraine, but solidarity across the whole of Europe. That is why we are coming together on the measures in this Bill. Hopefully we will have an opportunity to go again, and I associate myself with the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central and Headingley (Alex Sobel). We were both on a call earlier, and I know that he and other Members have also made trips to Ukraine and been part of aid convoys to help people, and long may that continue.
This Bill is another tool in the arsenal when it comes to fighting one of the world’s greatest tyrants. Ukraine’s fight against Russian tyranny is not just for Ukraine’s sovereignty, but for the freedom and security of the whole of Europe. One striking thing in making that journey is realising just how flat Europe is. I know that seems a silly point, but it brings home that there is nothing stopping Putin at the borders of Ukraine if we do not stand up against him now. The fact that another of the world’s tyrants, Assad, is now cowering in Moscow demonstrates the importance of curtailing Russia’s aggression.
I am proud that this Government and the Government before have stood foursquare behind Ukraine. As other Members have said, the Bill will land a deafening blow on Putin’s war machine and unlock a £2.26 billion contribution from the UK to the extraordinary revenue acceleration scheme, which crucially will not be paid by Ukraine or by British taxpayers. It comes from dodgy cash from profits owned by sanctioned Russian assets held in the EU.
I associate myself with the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Gregor Poynton), who listed the various ways in which the previous Government and the current Government have supported Ukraine. Long may that continue. It is so important that we continue to stand four-square behind Ukraine for as long as it takes. I urge the Committee to do all in our power to ensure that the Bill receives Royal Assent as urgently as is feasible, especially as we approach winter, when the battle conditions will become even tougher. Finally, I use this opportunity to pay tribute to the Ukrainian forces fighting on the frontline, the British troops involved in training and equipping them and all those showing resilience in the face of Putin’s illegal war.
In closing, I thank right hon. and hon. Members for their contributions. I thank my hon. Friends the Members for Leeds Central and Headingley (Alex Sobel), for Livingston (Gregor Poynton), for Cowdenbeath and Kirkcaldy (Melanie Ward), for Hexham (Joe Morris), for Bolton West (Phil Brickell) and for Hemel Hempstead (David Taylor) and the hon. Members for Solihull West and Shirley (Dr Shastri-Hurst) and for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry (Stephen Gethins), the shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the hon. Member for North Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller), and the Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty), for being here for this important debate.
Among some of the excellent contributions we heard in this debate was the remark by the hon. Member for Livingston (Gregor Poynton) that if Putin is not seen to fail in Ukraine, British troops will ultimately end up being involved in some sort of conflict directly. Will the Minister take that message back to his Treasury colleagues? Some of us feel that the arguments about whether 2.5% of GDP should be spent now or in a couple of years’ time rather miss the point, because if we get to the stage where British forces are engaged, we will be spending far more than that. As a Treasury Minister, he should realise that investment in defence in peacetime can deter a much more expensive conflict.
The Government’s position, as the right hon. Gentleman will know, is that we will set out the trajectory to 2.5% of GDP on NATO qualifying spend in 2025, following the conclusion of the strategic defence review and the spending review. He will also know that we fund our armed forces not just to be prepared, but to be ready to contribute. But clearly, I cannot comment on hypothetical scenarios in 2025. He was right to allude to contributions in the debate that rightly highlighted the Ukrainian armed forces on the battlefield fighting not just for their own country but for the security of Europe and the United Kingdom. I think we are all clear-eyed about that and, therefore, our responsibility to help them. That is why the Bill is one part of the package of support that we are putting in place and will continue to put in place over 2025.
I think I have answered most of the points substantively, and so I conclude my remarks.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair.
Bill reported, without amendment.
Bill, not amended in the Committee, considered.
Third Reading
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
Once again, I extend my gratitude to Members from across the House for contributing to today’s debate and facilitating the swift passage of the Bill. Today, and throughout the Bill’s passage so far, this House has made clear its strong feelings on the plight of the Ukrainian people. Members of all political stripes have spoken eloquently in favour of continued support for Ukraine in its ongoing fight against Russia’s tyrannical, unprovoked and illegal aggression. Since Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, no matter which party has been in office, the UK Government have remained committed to fully supporting Ukraine for as long as it takes.
The G7 extraordinary revenue acceleration scheme and this Bill, which facilitates the UK’s contribution, are another demonstration of the UK delivering on that promise. Beyond the ERA, the UK has now committed £12.8 billion in military, humanitarian and economic support to Ukraine. Earlier this year, the Government announced that we will continue to provide guaranteed military support of £3 billion per year to Ukraine for as long as it takes, and our ERA commitment goes further still. As hon. Members will know, the Bill unlocks the UK’s contribution of £2.26 billion, which constitutes a fair and proportionate contribution to the scheme based on our GDP share within the G7 and EU. It remains crucial that we pass the Bill as swiftly as possible to begin disbursing funds this winter to meet Ukraine’s urgent needs. Taken together, the ERA will provide Ukraine with an additional $50 billion in support. I pay tribute to our G7 partners for their collective determination to bring the ERA to fruition in just a few short months. We all remain united in our support for Ukraine against Russian provocation.
We in this House recognise the sacrifice that the people of Ukraine are making. They are fighting not only for their own survival and national identity, but for the security of Europe and the United Kingdom. The Bill will enable the Government to provide Ukraine with the essential support it requires to continue its battle against Putin’s unjust and illegal aggression.
At this point, Madam Deputy Speaker, given that this is probably my last contribution to the House this year, I wish you and the House a very merry Christmas, and say to the Ukrainian people that we hold them all in our hearts over this difficult period. I commend the Bill to the House.
On behalf of the official Opposition, I thank the Government for bringing forward the Bill and concluding its stages in this House before we break for Christmas. I also thank the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the right hon. Member for Bristol North West (Darren Jones), for the way he has handled the discussions on the Bill at each stage, providing Members with all the information they need at any stage and in answer to all questions. He has done an exemplary job.
I note the uniformity of support across this House from Members, whichever party they represent. However, it goes deeper than that: since former Prime Minister Boris Johnson galvanised the west into defence of Ukraine, through former Prime Minister Liz Truss, to my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond and Northallerton (Rishi Sunak), and now, with our current Prime Minister, the right hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer), the United Kingdom Government have been determined in support of the people of Ukraine. It says something of the depth of support in this country for the people of Ukraine that if we swept away a large proportion of the Members of this House and replaced them with different representatives from across the country, the resolve in support for Ukraine would remain the same.
We must not give up our efforts. Since we started our debates, there have been further actions in Ukraine. I will quote the latest summary from the Institute for the Study of War, which demonstrates the urgent need for the support set out in the Bill that we are passing today:
“on December 14…Russian forces fielded more than 100 pieces of equipment in a recent assault in the Siversk direction and noted that there were 55 combat engagements in this direction on December 13—a significant increase in tempo in this area of the frontline.”
It goes on:
“The GUR reported that a contingent consisting of Russian and North Korean servicemen in Kursk Oblast lost 200 personnel as of December 14 and that Ukrainian drones swarmed a North Korean position, which is consistent with recent reports of North Korean forces engaging in attritional infantry assaults.”
Our support, the military support the United Kingdom provides under this measure, is desperately needed, but the need goes further. Since Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, an estimated 8 million Ukrainian citizens have been displaced and 6 million people have left the country as refugees, with many still unable to return. As hon. Members have said, over 200,000 Ukrainian citizens are living in the United Kingdom. Our thoughts and prayers are with them and their families. We should also note the work of British charities and non-governmental organisations, including the British Red Cross, which estimates that, with other Red Cross and Red Crescent societies around the world, assistance has been provided to over 18 million people in Ukraine.
As we take our break, many of us will be celebrating Christmas. I hope that the Christian message of peace and hope will resonate in the new year, and that all of us in western Europe and particularly in Ukraine can look forward to a peaceful future.
I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to speak in support of the Bill and to highlight the importance of our unwavering commitment to Ukraine. I thank the Chief Secretary to the Treasury for his detailed response to the points raised in my new clause, which I really appreciate.
When I addressed this House a few weeks ago, I expressed my desire for measures that would go further, particularly to empower the Government to seize Russian state assets frozen in the UK and use them to help rebuild Ukraine—an issue many hon. Members touched on in the Committee of the whole House. It remains, in my view and that of the Liberal Democrats, a critical step that must be taken. While procedural constraints have made such an amendment impossible within the scope of the Bill, the importance of ensuring accountability and justice cannot be overstated. The repurposing of frozen Russian assets is not just a financial issue; it is about ensuring that those who have enabled the Kremlin’s actions face tangible consequences. The UK has an opportunity to lead by example in demonstrating that aggression will not go unpunished.
The Bill, by enabling the UK to participate in the G7’s ERA loans programme, provides vital financial support to Ukraine at a critical time in its fight for freedom. Beyond financial measures, we must continue to stand resolutely with our Ukrainian allies in other ways. That includes providing advanced military aid, bolstering Ukraine’s defences, and working closely with NATO and the EU to co-ordinate our collective response to Russian aggression. The UK must lead by example, showing that our commitment to Ukraine is unshakeable even in the face of uncertainty about the future of US support.
Ukraine’s fight is not just for its own sovereignty, but for the principles of freedom and democracy that we all hold dear. With winter looming and the conflict showing no sign of abating, the UK must be a steadfast partner, ensuring that Ukraine has the resources, support and international backing it needs to endure and prevail. The Bill is a welcome step forward, but it cannot be the final word. Let us seize the moment to demonstrate moral leadership and resolve. Let us ensure that Ukraine’s struggle for freedom remains our shared cause, paving the way for a future of peace and resilience.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.
Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and International Committee of the Red Cross (Status) Bill [Lords] (Programme) (No. 2)
Ordered,
That the Order of 22 October 2024 (Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and International Committee of the Red Cross (Status) Bill [Lords] (Programme)) be varied as follows:
(1) Paragraphs (4) and (5) of the Order shall be omitted.
(2) Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour after the commencement of proceedings on the Motion for this Order.
(3) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion two hours after the commencement of proceedings on the Motion for this Order.—(Stephen Doughty.)
(1 week, 1 day ago)
Commons ChamberI beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
It is a particular pleasure to follow the swift passage of that important Bill on financial assistance to Ukraine. It was also a particular pleasure to join the Ukrainian Foreign Minister twice in the last two weeks and to assure him of our continued support at this time, especially as we approach the Christmas season, but also, crucially, to assure him that we will continue our financial commitments and that there is unity across the House and, indeed, the country.
This too is an important Bill, on which there is again a huge amount of unity across the House. I hope that it will not detain us long. I pay tribute to all Members for their co-operation in getting the Bill this far so quickly in the new Parliament and under this new Government. It is a rare occasion when the House finds itself in such agreement, but the Bill has continued to receive unwavering support from Members in all parts of the House. That is a true testament to the importance that Members ascribe not only to the aims of the Bill, but to the aims and values of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the International Committee of the Red Cross.
I strongly endorse the sentiments that the Minister has expressed. May I offer my thanks and support to the CPA, which recently staged an excellent visit to Reading on behalf of the Barbadian Parliament? It was a wonderful experience, which was interesting and supportive both for me as a parliamentarian and for my colleagues from Barbados. It helped the Barbadian community in Reading to build and develop vital links. Our town once had the largest concentration of Barbadians outside Barbados itself, and there is a strong heritage there. The visit was much appreciated, and I wholeheartedly support the CPA and thank it for its work.
I thank my hon. Friend for his comments, which underline the importance that we ascribe to our relationships with our Commonwealth partners as parliamentarians and, of course, as a Government. As my hon. Friend will know, the Foreign Secretary made his own visit to the Caribbean just last week. Those ties are hugely important, and it is important that we maintain them in the House as well.
This is a significant moment for both organisations. The CPA has been seeking this change in its legal status for more than 20 years, and the ICRC has been doing so for over a decade. We are now finally able to deliver that. The passing of the Bill will ensure that the CPA’s headquarters remain in the UK, and its treatment as an international organisation will allow it to continue to operate fully across the Commonwealth and international fora. It will also allow the CPA to participate fully in areas where it is currently restricted.
As I have said, we ascribe great importance to our membership of the Commonwealth, a vibrant global network of 2.5 billion people united in the pursuit of freedom, peace and prosperity. In October this year, Samoa hosted the first Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in a Pacific island country. It was His Majesty the King’s first CHOGM as head of the Commonwealth, and there was a strong Government attendance. I was especially delighted that the representative of the UK overseas territories was present—the current president of the UK Overseas Territories Association and Premier of the Cayman Islands. This is the crucial context within which the CPA operates, and it is crucial that we secure status change so that it can continue its work in promoting democracy and good governance across the Commonwealth. Having participated in its work in the past, with both incoming and outgoing delegations—I think fondly of my visit to Ghana a few years ago, working with Commonwealth parliamentarians from across Africa—I have seen that work at first hand.
Throughout the Bill’s passage, Members have been vocal about the crucial role the ICRC plays in conflicts to protect civilian lives. It has a unique mandate under the Geneva conventions to provide humanitarian assistance to people affected by armed conflict and other situations of violence and to promote the laws that protect victims of war, and it works globally to promote international humanitarian law. It also has a unique legitimacy to engage with all parties to conflicts, and has unparallelled access to provide protection and assistance to vulnerable groups in conflicts around the world. It is therefore critical that it can operate in the UK in accordance with its international mandate, maintaining its strict adherence to the principles of neutrality, impartiality and independence and its working method of confidentiality. I know from our previous debates that Members are in agreement on why the Bill is so important in enshrining those principles.
We will continue to work with both the CPA and the ICRC to agree the written arrangements that will set out the parameters of the status change, as well as the privileges and immunities that the Government have decided to confer on both organisations. Those arrangements will be specified in Orders in Council, which will be brought to the House to be debated and voted on before being implemented.
As Members are aware, this is not the first time the House has considered the Bill. It was first a private Member’s Bill that was introduced in the last Session by the former Member for Basingstoke, and I pay tribute to her for her efforts in pushing it forward. I also want to put on the record my gratitude to the team of FCDO officials and lawyers who have worked tirelessly to ensure the Bill’s readiness and provided support to various Ministers throughout its passage. I thank my noble Friends in the other place, Lord Collins and Baroness Chapman, for their work in ensuring the Bill’s smooth passage. I also express my thanks and appreciation to the drafters in the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel for preparing the Bill, and to the House authorities for all their work behind the scenes.
Given that this is likely to be my last outing before the festive season, I want to wish a very happy Christmas to Members of the House—Nadolig llawen—and I wish everybody a successful festive season. I am delighted that we will get this Bill to its conclusion imminently.
I am pleased to stand here as the shadow Minister representing His Majesty’s official Opposition, and to support this Bill. Sadly, I note that the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Monica Harding) is not in her place.
The Opposition support the Bill, as we have done throughout its passage—both here and in the other place. We supported the Bill in the last Session, when it was a private Member’s Bill. I, too, pay tribute to Dame Maria Miller, who is no longer a Member of this House and who originally promoted the Bill. We continue our support in this Session as it comes before us as a Government Bill. I thank their lordships, who have taken a lot of interest in the Bill and made valuable contributions, particularly Baroness Anelay of St Johns. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Stamford (Alicia Kearns) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel) for their work on Second Reading and in Committee respectively.
This is a sensible Bill for two really important organisations: the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the International Committee of the Red Cross. These organisations do vital work that is often aligned with UK foreign policy objectives. It is important to resolve the issues that the Bill seeks to address, and we want to see it on the statute book. The Bill is to be welcomed, and it will now be key for the Government to take advantage of the new structures it puts in place.
On the CPA, we welcome the fact that the Bill makes a number of legal changes and supports the work of the courts in dealing with privileges and immunities. As we said on Second Reading, it is important that the Government now stretch every sinew to support both the work of the UK delegation and the CPA more widely. Perhaps I might also say that the performance of the Government at their first Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting was found a little wanting. That said, we very much hope to see future engagement with the CPA, particularly in the democratic institution-building work that was signalled in the Samoa communiqué.
The Commonwealth is a community of like-minded nations with shared history, but it is about so much more. It is about our public institutions, an independent judiciary and the rule of law. I recall my own visit to Barbados in 2021, when I was a Minister at the Foreign Office. I accompanied the then Prince of Wales, who is now His Majesty the King. It is surely a testament to the value of the Commonwealth that Barbados has chosen to remain a member of the community of nations.
The CPA does so much to strengthen the Commonwealth, and I praise the work of colleagues serving on the executive committee, in particular my hon. Friends the Members for South West Hertfordshire (Mr Mohindra) and for West Worcestershire (Dame Harriett Baldwin), who are not in the Chamber today, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell), who is sitting on the Benches behind me. I also thank my colleagues in the other place, Baroness Sugg and Lord Kamall, who are on the executive committee.
The ICRC has a unique legitimacy that allows it to engage with parties to conflicts across the world, and to gain important access to vulnerable people in conflict zones. The Bill recognises that, which is to be welcomed. The ICRC does vital work; I hope the Government will continue to recognise that, as we did in government, by committing generously to supporting its activities. The ICRC employs 18,000 staff around the world who work under incredibly difficult circumstances in some of the worst crises, and I would like to thank them on behalf of those of us on the Opposition Benches for their service.
I will conclude as I started, by reiterating our support for the Bill before us today. It makes a number of welcome changes that support the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the International Committee of the Red Cross, and I again pay tribute to all who support their vital work. As the Minister said as he concluded, I hope this is my last outing at the Dispatch Box this week before Christmas, and I wish you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and all Members a very merry Christmas.
First, I declare my interest as a member of the UK CPA executive.
It has been great to see the swift progress this Bill has made thus far and the cross-party support it has received. It is a short but important Bill that defines the status of the CPA and the ICRC. This is the third time it has been brought before the House, and I am sure, given the cross-party support it has already received, it will pass Third Reading smoothly.
The Bill is essential in providing the CPA and the ICRC with the required protections to operate as trusted partners of the UK and continue work in promoting democracy and meeting humanitarian needs. The UK continues proudly to reaffirm the vital role of the Commonwealth family in tackling the issues we face in an ever more uncertain world. I recently met the high commissioners of a few Commonwealth countries, including Zambia, St Vincent and the Grenadines, and Cyprus, who truly value their relationship with the UK. We must continue to foster good relations across the Commonwealth, and we can do so only if leaders and parliamentarians have the opportunity to work together.
I fully support the proposals for elevating the CPA and the ICRC status within the UK to stand alongside their vital international partners. This Bill will allow the CPA to operate as an international organisation headquartered in London rather than within limited scope as a UK charity. The CPA does incredible work in engaging parliamentarians across the Commonwealth, fully embodying its mission in promoting the advancement of parliamentary democracy. The threat to democracy and our liberal values has never been greater since the second world war, so this mission is more important than ever. The ability to engage openly with parliamentarians globally, particularly in fragile and conflict-ridden regions, and to exchange knowledge, good practice and an understanding of good democratic governance could make a world of difference.
Globally, the CPA operates in over 180 legislatures in 60 nations and encompasses over 18,500 parliamentarians. The cross-parliamentary engagement conferences and the forums allow for fruitful discussion on common values and aspirations. Importantly, this Bill will provide parliamentarians with the credibility and authority to operate fully on the international stage. The status of the CPA as an international organisation will facilitate an active role in global diplomacy in addressing the challenges of our time. Expanding its organisational scope will also bring the ability to sign international conventions and pursue political purposes such as denouncing the political persecution of parliamentarians in several countries. Granting the necessary privileges and legal immunities to the CPA places it on an equal footing with other international organisations, thus ensuring its global influence in promoting parliamentary democracy and good governance.
Crucially, the Bill seeks to elevate the status of the ICRC. As an independent humanitarian organisation, the ICRC has a unique mandate to protect victims of armed conflicts, enshrined in the Geneva conventions of 1949. This Bill will provide the necessary mechanisms to enhance the work of the ICRC in a way befitting its mandate in international humanitarian law. Granting the ICRC certain immunities and privileges will bring the UK into line with over 110 states and alleviate many operational challenges under its current status.
The ICRC’s efforts to provide humanitarian assistance and rebuild communities need to be protected. It is important to recognise that the ICRC works in many dangerous zones around the world, and that allowing the legal protection of information and testimonies will in turn protect its workers and benefit the people it is helping. Its work in Gaza, Sudan, Congo, Ukraine and in over 90 countries must be protected and must maintain its principles of neutrality, independence and confidentiality.
This Bill provides a critical step in ensuring that both the CPA and the ICRC, through their new status as international organisations, are entrusted by the Government to operate fully within the UK. Both organisations will continue to be valued partners in the UK’s central role in global diplomacy, through the promotion of good governance, democracy and the Commonwealth, and in addressing global humanitarian needs.
I hope the whole House will support the Bill on Third Reading.
I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
Thank you for your forbearance, Madam Deputy Speaker. I apologise for my hasty entry into the Chamber, which does not detract from the high importance that the Liberal Democrats and I attach to this Bill.
I am pleased to welcome the Bill back to the House on Third Reading and, having listened to hon. Members over the past weeks, I acknowledge the reservoir of support across the House for both the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the International Committee of the Red Cross.
On the Liberal Democrat Benches, we want to see Britain deepening trust and building partnerships with our allies; we want to see Britain setting an example in its support for international humanitarian law; and we want to see Britain countering the rise in global authoritarianism through our commitment to institutions such as the Commonwealth.
Set against the scale of these ambitions, the changes made by this Bill may seem comparatively narrow. They are, however, no less important. By altering the status of the CPA and the ICRC so they can be treated as international organisations, with associated privileges and immunities, we will safeguard the critical missions of both bodies while ensuring they can retain their particular relationships with the United Kingdom.
In the case of the CPA, the importance of this is readily apparent. The CPA’s present designation as a UK charity limits its participation in the work of the Commonwealth to that of a civil society organisation and fails to respect the spirit of co-operation and voluntary association that animates the Commonwealth. This Bill is an opportunity to reaffirm our commitment to the Commonwealth and to continue hosting the CPA’s headquarters here in the United Kingdom.
The Commonwealth charter, signed by the late Queen Elizabeth II, lays out the 16 core values and principles of the Commonwealth. These include democracy, human rights, gender equality, protecting the environment, and the rule of law. These are all principles and values that the Liberal Democrats are pleased to champion.
I turn now to the International Committee of the Red Cross and its thousands of dedicated employees who, along with millions of volunteers in national and international Red Cross and Red Crescent societies, comprise the rest of the broader Red Cross and Red Crescent movement. The ICRC is an organisation without parallel. Its unique mandate is an exclusively humanitarian one: to protect the lives and dignity of victims of armed conflict and other situations of violence, and to promote and strengthen humanitarian law.
I am sad to say that the ICRC’s mission is as indispensable now as it was at the committee’s founding in 1863 and when it was affirmed by the Geneva conventions in 1949. Today the world is racked by more than 120 armed conflicts. In Sudan, Ukraine, Gaza and across the wider world, millions have been made refugees and tens of millions have been internally displaced. The UN estimates that 87% of the casualties resulting from recent hostilities have been civilians.
Aid workers, such as those in the Red Cross and Red Crescent movement, are increasingly at risk, and even news welcomed by this House, such as the fall of the brutal Assad regime, is accompanied by urgent humanitarian need. Since the beginning of the war in Syria in 2011, the ICRC has registered more than 35,000 cases of people who have gone missing. Now, with Assad’s prisons finally cast open, the ICRC has been working to reunite families and to support ex-prisoners.
In Sudan, where some 25 million people are in urgent need of humanitarian aid, the shameful Russian veto of the UN Security Council resolution drafted by the UK and Sierra Leone, which called on both the Rapid Support Forces and the Sudanese armed forces to increase aid access, must now encourage the Government to redouble their efforts to see humanitarian law upheld.
Since the beginning of the conflict in Gaza, the ICRC has facilitated the release, transfer and return to their loved ones of 109 Israeli hostages held in Gaza. The committee also performed the same function for 154 freed Palestinian detainees. Presently, the ICRC has been denied access to the hostages even now held by Hamas in Gaza, as well as to the Palestinians in Israeli detention. The ICRC therefore has no assurance that either the hostages or the detainees are receiving humane treatment, nutrition or healthcare. Will the Minister affirm that the ICRC must be given immediate access to the hostages in Gaza and to the detainees in Israel and the occupied territories to fulfil its mandate under the third Geneva convention? Will he also inform the House of what actions the Department is taking to ensure combatants adhere to their obligations under international humanitarian law to treat prisoners and detainees humanely?
By treating the ICRC as an international organisation, we can provide it with a legal basis to protect its neutrality and continue its work in the world’s most dangerous and fraught regions, and that will be a positive step. However, we must also recognise that while changes to the ICRC’s status are necessary, they are far from sufficient to ensure that humanitarian law is upheld and humanitarian aid is delivered where, when and in the quantities that it is needed. I urge the Government to stand up to the permissive attitude in international law that we witness today in many war zones, affirm our shared values in support of international humanitarian law and impress upon warring factions the need to deliver aid without interference.
I am glad that the FCDO’s support to the ICRC this year looks likely to exceed the £133 million provided last year. However, I remain concerned that the cuts to the UK’s international development spending from 0.58% of gross national income to 0.5%, announced in the Budget, will be reflected in reduced support to the ICRC in 2025 and beyond. At this dangerous time, when support for humanitarian aid organisations is so critical, I hope the Government will commit to increasing the funding next year for the ICRC and the indispensable work it does.
We Liberal Democrats come from a long tradition of liberal internationalism, which prizes co-operation based on shared values. The efforts of both the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the International Committee of the Red Cross is of vital importance. We are proud to support them and proud to support the Bill.
It is a pleasure to follow the Liberal Democrat spokesperson, who made it just in time. I say, better late than never. It was an important contribution.
I want to assure the Parliamentary Private Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Alan Gemmell), who put it to me that it looked like I had rather a lot of pieces of paper in my hand and asked how long I intended to speak, that it is more a case of the font being a bit bigger so I can read it, as opposed to the temptation of speaking for far too long. [Interruption.] Never? You should be so lucky.
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak briefly on Third Reading of this much needed and very welcome piece of legislation. I want to start, as my hon. Friend the Member for Southgate and Wood Green (Bambos Charalambous) did, by declaring my interest as a member of the executive of the UK branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and as co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group for the Commonwealth. I congratulate the Minister on his work getting the Bill through the House and pay the same tribute to Baroness Chapman, alongside noble Lords of all parties and none—I think of Baroness D’Souza particularly. That the Bill has worked its way through the House with no substantive amendments speaks to the collective commitment on all sides to our role on the world stage and to being good citizens.
I noted on Second Reading that the Bill has been through the wars and was rudely interrupted by the general election, although I would not be here without that, so I am grateful to a point. I am therefore delighted that Royal Assent is within touching distance. With that in mind, I accept that the sooner I sit down, the faster the Bill will get on the statute book. However, I want to say a couple of things.
In many ways, I am a child of the Commonwealth: my grandfather was born in Jamaica, that wonderful island in the West Indies, and my father, as Members will know by my surname Jogee, is of Indian heritage, but was born and raised in Zimbabwe—Rhodesia at the time, but now Zimbabwe. Notwithstanding Zimbabwe’s departure from, and intention to rejoin, the Commonwealth —an issue I shall raise with the Minister for Development in the new year—all three nations, alongside our United Kingdom, were or are important members of the Commonwealth of Nations.
This Bill is important to me, as it ensures that we lead by example, gives real, tangible effect to our commitment to the Commonwealth, and makes it clear that we will play our full part. That is important, because, following our departure from the European Union, making global Britain work, making it real and making it a success has to happen with the Commonwealth at its heart. A successful and effective Commonwealth can be a vehicle for our values, for trade, for the sharing of ideas, and for delivery.
The Commonwealth Parliamentary Association does such important work, and the new legal status that this Bill affords it allows us, as a United Kingdom, to take our seat firmly at the table. It brings parliamentarians here together, allowing us to form friendships—the former Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell), and I are now pals—and creates alliances and working relationships at home and abroad. It allows us to learn from others, to share our successes and, importantly, to pick up best practice. As the Liberal Democrat spokesperson noted, it is important that the CPA will remain headquartered here in our United Kingdom.
I would like to say thank you to Sarah, Josh, Helen, Daisy and all the team who have supported me since my election to the executive of the UK branch of the CPA. My thanks also go to the secretary-general of the CPA. Stephen Twigg is a former Member of this House and the man who sent Portillo packing in Enfield Southgate back in 1997. I saw Stephen’s effectiveness, patience, and diligence up close at the CPA conference—I am sure that the right hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale will agree with that. Just to reassure Opposition Members, I would also like to pay tribute to Dame Maria Miller, formerly of this parish, for the role that she played in getting us to where we are today.
This Bill is about our standing on the world stage and our role as a leader in the fight for human rights, democracy, respect, good governance, decency and, importantly, togetherness. The Bill, when signed into law by His Majesty, will specifically grant international status to both the ICRC and the CPA and will enable both those reputable and long-standing bodies to benefit from the immunities and privileges of all other international bodies. That is a win for all of us. It is a technical Bill, but an important one. I know that colleagues in Parliaments and Assemblies across the Commonwealth are looking to us to get this done, and today, all being well, we will do just that.
Her late Majesty Queen Elizabeth II always said that she had to be seen to be believed, and she was right. The same goes for us, Madam Deputy Speaker, because as this Bill becomes law—subject to the will of the House—we will be able to look our partners, neighbours and friends in the eye and prove our commitment to the Commonwealth in deeds as well as in words.
The Committee stage of the Bill was the first Committee that I sat on following my election to this House. I accept that it was a little less demanding than the Committees on some of the other Bills before us, but that speaks to the cross-party nature of the Bill. I welcome the support of colleagues from across the House, including the shadow Minister, the right hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton) and the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Monica Harding) from the Liberal Democrats.
I join the Minister in paying tribute to all the officials in the Foreign Office who have worked on the Bill, some of whom are listening, and to the Clerks and officials here in this House. They are all wonderful and very talented people. I wish the Bill well when the Question is put shortly, and I look forward to supporting it on Third Reading. I feel sure that it will receive the overwhelming support of the House.
As this is the last time that I shall speak in the House in 2024—[Interruption.] I am going home. Newcastle-under-Lyme needs me and I am going home.
You’ll cope just fine.
I just want to wish all colleagues here in our United Kingdom Parliament, our Commonwealth kith and kin, and, of course, the good people of Newcastle-under-Lyme, who I shall see tomorrow, a very happy Christmas and a peaceful, calm and tolerant new year.
What a pleasure it is to follow so many positive speeches on such a unifying issue. I cannot help but observe that it is singularly appropriate that the amiable Minister should be making his last contributions before Christmas on this issue rather than the more fractious one earlier of the future of the Chagos islands.
Right hon. and hon. Members may recall that I spoke on Second Reading in support of the very sensible changes that the Bill will make to the status of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the International Committee of the Red Cross. By giving each organisation the status of a body corporate, the Bill ensures that the independence of their staff is sufficiently protected, and that the staff are able to continue with their work unhindered. The Bill gives a clear and welcome signal that the UK is committed to supporting democratic institutions in carrying out their important and independent work. I have been encouraged by the Minister’s positive comments throughout the parliamentary debate regarding the importance of safeguarding the institutional independence of such organisations, and the same is true, indeed essential, for the office of the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament.
I had hoped, as I said on Second Reading, that the Bill would be expanded to include the ISC, given the very clear read-across. Unfortunately, it has not proved possible to extend the scope of the Bill to cover the ISC within the available timeframe, so I will not repeat my earlier comments. However, I hope that the Government have heard the strength of feeling on this issue, which is about upholding the commitments given to Parliament. It is about ensuring that this House is able to hold secret organisations to account, without the independent staff who do that work being subjected to undue pressure, inappropriate influence or improper interference.
Following the recent appointment of the new Committee under its highly experienced Chairman, elected today by the other Committee members, Lord Beamish, formerly Kevan Jones MP, with whom I served on the Committee for four years, I trust that the Government will find another suitable legislative vehicle to allow the important changes that we are making to the CPA and the ICRC to be applied to the ISC as well. Given the very clear similarities between the two democratic institutions covered by the Bill and the office of the ISC and its secretariat, I am confident that that measure would receive the same level of strong cross-party support that has rightly been achieved for this important Bill.
I should declare that I am the treasurer and international representative of the CPA UK branch. The scale of the resentment, and indeed anger, among Commonwealth countries at the previous structure of the CPA is sometimes not clear in this House. A body had been set up to consider alternative structures, in particular the CPA leaving the UK and being based elsewhere, because of that concern and the many years that it had taken to bring the issue forward.
I was therefore very pleased to be able to go to the interim committee, which had been set up to consider alternative locations for CPA International, and provide it with a copy of the Hansard report of the Second Reading of the Bill, which I am grateful that the Minister and the FCDO brought forward in a timely fashion that tied in, deliberately or otherwise, with the Commonwealth parliamentary conference. Given undertakings that had been given repeatedly by UK representatives, there was a demand for evidence that that would be done. The unanimous support that the Bill achieved on Second Reading went a long way towards doing that, opening up the opportunity for CPA International to start to focus on many other issues.
The issue of the CPA’s structure and legal status has preoccupied it at an international level for many years. I attended the conference in Ghana last year and, at that conference, that was the dominant issue that took up virtually all the debate. This year, I was pleased that there was an excellent debate on climate change. We have a new international chair in Dr Christopher Kalila, who will visit London shortly. He has set out his wish to bring a renewed sense of purpose to the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, which will focus not so much on structure and constitutional issues as on bringing together the Commonwealth parliamentary family on issues of importance across the Commonwealth.
As the Minister knows, we cannot disguise the fact that there are difficult issues out there. The LGBT+ issue remains extremely challenging, and we cannot duck that. We have to look at ways in which we can take that forward. Certain Commonwealth countries are promoting the criminalisation of not just members of the LGBT+ community but their allies. That is not acceptable, and we have to take a stand and show leadership on it.
We also have to acknowledge that other actors are at work. It will shock Labour Members that when I was in South Africa, I was condemned as a neo-colonialist by the Economic Freedom Fighters party, who wear fetching red boiler suits in Parliament to display that, in fact, they are ordinary working people and not part of the elite. They are not supportive of the Commonwealth or South Africa’s role in it. We know Russia and China are active in many Commonwealth countries, so we cannot just take it as given that everybody will proceed on the basis that we would wish them to. But I, like others who have spoken, regard the Commonwealth as a great force for good. There is huge opportunity at both parliamentary and governmental level to make a difference to those on the ground across the Commonwealth, and I hope that will be at the heart of the Government’s approach.
There are one or two people who I would like to thank and acknowledge, not least my former colleague Dame Maria Miller, who tried to get the Bill through. Whether the arrival of the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Adam Jogee) was worth pausing the Bill for might be a matter for debate on another day. I praise our former colleague Ian Liddell-Grainger. Ian would have done well in the diplomatic service, if he had chosen to do so. He had to step in when the former chair of the CPA international died suddenly and there was a vacuum. Ian came in and steadied the ship, as well as pursuing the issue within this Parliament and identifying its importance.
Of course, as has already been mentioned, our former colleague in this House, Stephen Twigg does a hugely important job as chief executive of CPA International. On his behalf, I ask the Minister to ensure that the subsequent orders that have to be brought forward are done so in a timely fashion and that we can continue to confirm to the Commonwealth family the momentum behind the process. The international executive committee of the CPA is due to meet here in London in May, and it would be helpful if the other parts of the process could have been completed by then.
My final plea to the Minister is for the Government to make more use of the CPA by working more closely with it. As he has acknowledged, having been on many visits, the CPA UK—with Members of this Parliament— has the capacity to act in a soft power role for the Government. As he and others know, MPs can share and discuss things that it is not necessarily possible for our Ministers or high commissioners to discuss. In fact, when we were in Ghana last year, we had good discussions around the LGBT+ issue, which would not have been possible in more formal settings.
I just want to say to the Minister that the point that the right hon. Gentleman has just made has support across the House. Many Labour Members want to see exactly the urgency and focus that he has just mentioned.
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that and for his wider comments. The CPA UK in particular is a good way of bringing together colleagues from across the House. I know that Mr Speaker fully endorses and supports that. It has been a pleasure to attend many events over the years, both overseas and here, with colleagues from across the House.
To return to my point, I hope that the Minister and the FCDO in its current guise will endorse and embrace the CPA, and the opportunity to use its soft power, to take forward matters that are in the interests of everybody across the United Kingdom.
I did not intend to speak again, but with the leave of the House, I will respond to some of the important questions that were raised.
It is good to see the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Monica Harding), who asked important questions about the terrible situation for the hostages held by Hamas. We want to see those hostages released. The ICRC has called for the immediate release of the hostages and for access to them, it continues to request information on the hostages and their current health conditions, and it continues to try to get access to the hostages as part of its mandated role to assess their welfare, pass messages to family and provide medical and other support. However, for that to happen, all parties to the conflict need to reach agreement, and the ICRC has no means to compel them to do so. We understand that the ICRC continues to meet representatives of the families—as do the Government. We all want to see the hostages brought home.
The hon. Lady also raised the important matter of funding for the ICRC. In 2023, the funding was £133 million, including £52 million core unrestricted funding. However, in 2024, the UK is on track to provide over £165 million to the ICRC. The current spending review is under way, so the total amount for 2025 and beyond is not confirmed, but our intention is to continue structuring future funding within a new multi-year business case, to give the ICRC the predictability of income that it needs to plan ahead for its crucial international humanitarian law and protection programme around the world, to which many Members have referred.
I join the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Sir Julian Lewis) in congratulating Lord Beamish on his new role. I noted carefully the points that the right hon. Member made, and I have no doubt that he will continue to pursue them in the way he does.
I thank all Members who have contributed to Third Reading and the other debates on the Bill, including my hon. Friends the Members for Southgate and Wood Green (Bambos Charalambous) and for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Adam Jogee), and the right hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell). I join the right hon. Member in thanking Stephen Twigg for his excellent work, particularly in relation to the CPA. I am glad that there has been agreement across the House on these issues. I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed, with amendments.
(1 week, 1 day ago)
Commons ChamberThe reason I have sought this Adjournment debate on internet service providers and suicide-related content online arises from a terrible tragedy that happened in my constituency. My constituent Joe Nihill was aged just 23 when he took his own life back in 2020 after accessing a horrific website. The purpose of that website is something that will alarm every Member of this House: it is dedicated to pushing people towards suicide. In fact, the website—which I will not name for reasons of public safety—was the subject of a BBC investigation linking it to more than 50 deaths in the UK, but it is linked to many more deaths around the world. That BBC investigation, which took place a year ago, rightly identified multiple warnings to the UK Government by coroners, and a number of police investigations.
To be clear, this website pushes people to suicide by encouraging suicide, and by actively attempting to dissuade them from seeking mental health support or the support of their family and friends. It provides people with instructions on how to take their own life, it has links to where substances can be purchased, and it has even livestreamed suicides.
I commend the hon. Gentleman for bringing this debate before the House. I spoke to him before the debate; this is an issue that needs airing, and he is doing us all justice by doing so.
I am aware that some streaming services such as Disney+ will put disclaimers in place for graphic self-harm and suicide scenes. Netflix took a step further: its programme “13 Reasons Why” removed its final episode, as it contained a highly graphic scene of suicide that many found distressing. Does the hon. Member agree that streaming services that screen scenes of suicide must, as an industry standard, have a responsibility to consider the age range of their target audience? What we are asking for tonight is for the Minister and this Government to take action.
The hon. Member is correct that everyone should exercise great moral responsibility when putting stuff out there for people to see and be influenced by.
Joe Nihill’s mother Catherine and his sister-in-law Melanie have run an inspiring campaign in the wake of that tragedy to stop what happened to Joe back in April 2020 happening to other people. Before he took his own life, Joe left a note for his family, and in that note, he asked them to do everything they could to get this website taken down so that others were not pushed down the same path as him. Catherine and Melanie have saved lives as a result of their interventions, personally preventing people from going down that path. What is needed, though, is not the heroism of people such as Catherine and Melanie—it has saved lives, but it is not enough. What is needed is a change in the law. Of course, I welcome the advance made in this regard through the Online Safety Act 2023, which I will turn to later.
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. My constituent David Parfett has been in the news speaking about his son Tom, who sadly took his own life following his visits to a very harmful site—quite possibly the same one that the hon. Gentleman is talking about—that promotes how people can take their own lives. He sourced poison that way and took his own life. There are 97 Britons who have lost their lives after using this website. We need to take action on these very small but very harmful websites. The Online Safety Act contains a provision for such websites to be included in category 1, the most highly regulated category, yet the illegal harms code published yesterday does not include them. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this is a massive oversight, and that these websites should be included in category 1?
I thank the hon. Member for her intervention, and I will mention her constituent’s horrific experience later in my speech. I agree that there is much further to go to ensure that the Online Safety Act does what it needs to do to protect as many people as possible.
Of this website, Joe’s sister-in-law Melanie said yesterday on social media that
“the problem with these websites is that they are accessed by people at their most vulnerable and children. I’m Joe’s sister in law and I know Joe would still be here if he hadn’t accessed that website because the method he used is only discussed there he wouldn’t have known any other way. These sites are run by people who prey on the vulnerable and say they too are going to end their life but 4 years later they are still here doing the same thing pushing methods. We are never going to end suicide, but we know that so many people can be helped.”
The BBC investigation identified one of the creators of the site, and tracked him down to his home in Huntsville, Alabama in the US. He was doorstepped by the BBC reporter and he refused to answer any questions, but an account associated with this creator of the site issued defiant responses about the UK’s wanting to block the site.
As part of its investigation a year ago, the BBC contacted internet service providers, as did Joe’s sister-in-law and his mother. Sky Broadband, for example, responded by saying that it had blocked the site. Catherine and Melanie said at the time:
“It’s really important to us both, as it means access is becoming limited to prevent others…finding it—which is a step in the right direction.”
The hon. Member mentioned her constituent David Parfett, and David’s son Tom was 22 when he ended his own life in 2021 after accessing this site. Responding to Sky Broadband’s decision as an internet service provider a year ago to block this site, Mr Parfett said:
“It made me cry. It’s pure relief, mixed with anger that Tom may still be here if”
it
“had been regulated two years ago. My sole aim has been to stop other people being influenced to take their own life.”
Responding to a defiant response from the site linked to the founder of the website, Mr Parfett added:
“These people encourage others to die and celebrate death”.
In a statement at the time, Ofcom told BBC News—this was just over a year ago—about the then Online Safety Bill:
“If services don’t comply, we’ll have a broad range of enforcement powers at our disposal to ensure they’re held accountable”.
In a recent Westminster Hall debate, I intervened on the Minister about this, and I congratulated the internet service providers Sky and Three on taking action to block access to this site. The Minister very helpfully welcomed that intervention, and made the important point that
“internet providers do not have to wait for the Act to be enacted; they can start making such changes now.”
She went on to say that
“the Online Safety Act…is a landmark Act, but it is also imperfect. Ofcom’s need to consult means a long lead-in time; although it is important to get these matters right, that can often feel frustrating.”—[Official Report, 26 November 2024; Vol. 757, c. 250WH.]
It is right that internet service providers do the right thing and take responsibility.
Just as Joe’s family have been contacting internet service providers, so have I. I very much welcome the fact that Three has responded to representations by blocking this site, which I will not name, as has Sky. Other responses were not quite as positive or as practical. Vodafone responded by saying that the site is blocked
“where customers have adult content filters enabled”.
BT responded by saying that
“our fixed network level broadband parental control settings for all ages block the site”.
The response from Virgin Media O2 concerned me, and I want to put it on the record. It originally came back to me saying that it would block the site if a court order told it to. We need to be clear that it is not impressive to say, “If a court tells us to do something, we will do it.” A court order is a court order, and companies have no choice other than to comply. Virgin Media O2 also referred to people changing settings so that they cannot access this site. Virgin Media O2 needs to get real. Somebody who is in the mindset of considering taking their own life—somebody who is struggling to control that impulse—is not likely to disable the setting to stop themselves from looking at it.
My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech. I did not come here to speak, but he is discussing a key topic. As we move into Christmas, many of us are looking forward to it, but it can be a low time for people. I worry about people accessing this content and content around eating disorders. The question for any internet service provider—hopefully they are watching this debate—is, what possible justification can they have for continuing access to this site? Are they hiding behind freedom of speech? To me, there is a complete imbalance between the need to protect the rights of these young people and the wider freedom of speech argument.
I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. This is not a freedom of speech issue; this is a particular website linked to the deaths of 50 people in our country and many more worldwide.
In its reply, Virgin Media O2 also said that it was handling this matter through its partnership with the Internet Watch Foundation. I contacted the Internet Watch Foundation, and it replied that
“we work with companies to block child sexual abuse material specifically, so don’t work on suicide related content I am afraid”.
It was therefore a poor reassurance from Virgin Media O2 to point to a partnership with an organisation that does great work, I am sure, but not in relation to this specific issue.
I pressed Virgin Media O2 further, and it said:
“We will review the specific website you raised with us and consider if further action should be taken”.
Of course further action should be taken. There are technological limits that sometimes mean a block cannot be 100% effective, but lives can be saved and will be saved by restricting the number of people who access this site.
I put on record that I have had no answer from EE. It should answer, and it should act. I encourage all internet service providers to do the right thing and, in whatever way they can, to block this specific site, which is linked to 50 UK deaths, is the subject of police investigations, as we understand it, and is referred to in various coroners’ reports.
To give a sense of the scale of the challenge, Three UK has kindly provided me with data today that shows that it has blocked 10,025 attempts to access URLs that it has categorised under suicide and self-harm in the past month alone. Three UK should be congratulated on what it has done. The fact that it can inform me of the number of attempts to access such sites that it has blocked shows why it is fundamentally necessary for other companies to do the right thing.
The site is hosted by Cloudflare, a major company with a good reputation and a corporate office in London. I draw the House’s attention to a written question asked by the right hon. Member for Goole and Pocklington (David Davis), who I emailed earlier about this. On 24 October 2023, he asked a written question that was passed to the Home Office. It said:
“To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether her Department has held recent discussions with Cloudflare on removing the website linked to deaths by suicide reported on by the BBC on 24 October 2023.”
He was asking what the then Government had done to pressure Cloudflare, which hosts this site, to take it down and disrupt its operation. No answer was given to that. He is still awaiting a response to that question that was due an answer on 31 October 2023.
On 29 May 2024, I wrote to the chief executive officer of Cloudflare, Matthew Prince, making it clear what had happened in this situation. I said:
“The reason I am writing to you today is because it appears your company is hosting this website and I would like to draw this to your attention so you can terminate your hosting of this site, to protect the public in both our countries”—
the USA and the UK—
“and across the world. I know a successful company of over a decade’s good standing like Cloudflare with an excellent reputation, would not wish to be associated with such harmful content, linked to the deaths of many vulnerable people across the world.”
I detailed the whole matter, as I have detailed it to the House, and then I put:
“I would be very grateful if you look into this matter as a matter of urgency before any more vulnerable people are encouraged or enabled to harm themselves due to this website’s activities. Cloudflare ceasing to host its website would not be a contravention of the principle of freedom of speech but a choice of a reputable and respected company not to give a platform to a website which has been linked to the death of 50 people in the UK alone. Such a decision by Cloudflare could well save lives.”
I said:
“It should be noted that both Sky Broadband and 3 mobile have blocked access to this website”.
I got no response to that letter on a really serious matter. I hope not only that internet service providers will do the right thing, but that the major company Cloudflare will do the right thing and stop hosting this website. Disrupting its operation in that way could save lives, and I believe that it would save lives.
To conclude, I will ask the Minister, who has been doing a fantastic job on these sensitive issues, a number of questions. Will she congratulate those internet service providers who have done the right thing in taking action to block this site? Does she agree that those who have not should step up to save lives? Will she assure me that once Ofcom’s powers are fully enacted, the Online Safety Act 2023 will deal with this specific site regardless of the number of people who access it and whether those people are under or over 18?
I find it frustrating when internet service providers get back to me and refer to child protection. My constituent Joe was 23 when he took his own life, and the constituent of the hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) was 21 or 22 when he took his own life, so it is ridiculous to assume that harmful suicide-related content of this type is only a danger to people under 18.
In relation to the question to the Home Office tabled on 24 October 2023 by the right hon. Member for Goole and Pocklington, will the Minister take action to ensure that her Department answers that question? Will she agree to the Government contacting Cloudflare as the host of the site and raise concerns and make representations? We are talking about the deaths of 50 citizens in our country.
I will finish my remarks by again paying tribute to Catherine and Melanie, Joe’s mother and sister-in-law. They have been navigating this complex, ever-changing world of dangerous activities that go on online and their actions have saved lives. They have been struggling to do so against great odds—it sometimes feels like a David and Goliath situation.
I note that when people are, for example, illegally streaming football matches, action is taken very quickly, yet this website, which is linked to the deaths of 50 people, remains up there. I look forward to the Minister’s response and thank Members for attending the debate.
I thank the hon. Member for Leeds East (Richard Burgon) for opening the debate and all other colleagues who have contributed. I know that this issue will be close to the hearts of many of us, because it is about protecting the safety of everyone, including our children and young people.
This evening I want to talk about why this issue matters and what the Online Safety Act will do about it. First, I would like to share my deepest sympathies with family and friends of Joe Nihill—a 23-year-old man who ended his life after finding suicide-related content online. Unfortunately, stories such as Joe’s are not uncommon—we have heard about Tom, a 22-year-old young man, who also died from suicide. As part of our work in online safety we speak to groups that have campaigned for years for a safer internet, often led by bereaved families. I thank Joe’s mother Catherine, his sister-in-law Melanie and all the bereaved families for their tireless work. We continue to listen to their expertise in this conversation.
People who are thinking about ending their lives or hurting themselves might turn to the internet as a place of refuge. All too often, what they find instead is content encouraging them not to seek help. That deluge of content has a real-world impact. Suicide-related internet use is a factor in around a quarter of deaths by suicide among people aged 10 to 19 in the UK—at least 43 deaths a year. Lots of research in this area focuses on children, but it is important to recognise that suicide-related internet use can be a factor in suicide in all age groups. These harms are real, and tackling them must be a collective effort.
On the hon. Member’s first point, we welcome efforts by all companies, including internet service providers, to tackle illegal content so that no more lives are tragically lost to suicide. Online safety forms a key pillar of the Government’s suicide prevention strategy. However, we are clear that the principal responsibility sits squarely with those who post such hateful content, and the site where it is allowed to fester—sites that, until now, have not been made to face the consequences. The Online Safety Act has been a long time coming. A decade of delay has come at a tragic human cost, but change is on its way. On Monday, Ofcom published its draft illegal harms codes under the Online Safety Act, which are a step change.
On the hon. Member’s second point, I can confirm that from next spring, for the first time, social media platforms and search engines will have to look proactively for and take down illegal content. These codes will apply to sites big and small. If services do not comply they could be hit by massive fines, or Ofcom could, with the agreement of the courts, use business disruption measures —court orders that mean that third parties have to withdraw their services or restrict or block access to non-compliant services in the UK. We have made intentionally encouraging or assisting suicide a priority offence under the Act. That means that all providers, no matter their size, will have to show that they are taking steps to stop their sites being used for such content.
The strongest protection in the Act’s frameworks are for children, so on the hon. Member’s third point, I assure him that under the draft child safety codes, any site that allows content that promotes self-harm, eating disorders or suicide will now have to use highly effective age limits to stop children from accessing such content. Some sites will face extra duties. We have laid the draft regulations setting out the threshold conditions for category 1, 2A and 2B services under the Act. Category 1 sites are those that have the ability to spread content easily, quickly and widely. They will have to take down content if it goes against their terms of services, such as posts that could encourage self-harm or eating disorders. They will also have to give adult users the tools to make it less likely they will see content that they do not want to see, or will alert them to the nature of potentially harmful content.
A suicide forum will be unlikely to have terms of services that restrict legal suicide content, and users of these sites are unlikely to want to use tools that make it less likely they will see such content. However, that absolutely does not mean that such forums—what people call “small but risky” sites—can go unnoticed.
Every site, whether it has five users or 500 million users, will have to proactively remove illegal content, such as content where there is proven intent of encouraging someone to end their life. Ofcom has also set up a “small but risky” supervision taskforce to ensure that smaller forums comply with new measures, and it is ready to take enforcement action if they do not do so. The Government understand that just one person seeing this kind of content could mean one body harmed, one life ended, and one family left grieving.
The problem is that the sites that the hon. Member for Leeds East (Richard Burgon) referred to—and there are many others like them—do not necessarily fall into the illegal category, although they still have extremely dangerous and harmful content. Despite a cross-party vote in Parliament to include in the Online Safety Act these very small and very dangerous sites in category 1, there has been a proactive decision to leave them out of the illegal harms codes, which were published yesterday. Can the Minister put on record exactly why that is? Why can these sites not be included in that category? There is all sorts of content glamourising suicide, self-harm, eating disorders and other hate speech that is being promoted by these small sites. They should be regulated to a high level.
Based on research regarding the likely impact of user numbers and functionalities, category 1 is about easy, quick and wide dissemination of regulated user-generated content. As Melanie Dawes set out in her letter to the Secretary of State in September, Ofcom has established a “small but risky” supervision task, as I mentioned, to manage and enforce compliance among smaller services. It has the power to impose significant penalties and, as I say, to take remedial action against non-compliant services. As the hon. Member for Leeds East mentioned earlier, the Online Safety Act is one of the biggest steps that Government have taken on online safety, but it is imperfect. It is an iterative process, and it will be kept under review.
I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising this matter, and for bringing to our memory Joe Nihill and those like him, who turned to the internet for help and were met with harm. On his final point, on the effective implementation of the Online Safety Act, we will continue to engage with all providers in this space. I am confident that these measures are a big step in making tech companies play their part in wiping out those harms and making the internet a safer place for us all. The hon. Gentleman raised the matter of an outstanding question. I do not know whether he has gone to the wrong Department, but I will commit to looking up that question and ensuring that he receives a response to it.
With that, I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and wish you and the whole House a very happy Christmas.
Question put and agreed to.
(1 week, 1 day ago)
Westminster HallWestminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
(1 week, 1 day ago)
Westminster HallWestminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
I beg to move,
That this House has considered the employment rights of people with a terminal illness.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward.
For some time, the fundamental ask of this campaign has been the right of working people who have been diagnosed with a terminal illness not to face the sack. We have spoken a lot about terminal illness over the last few weeks in this place, and I do not want us to lose momentum. We now know the legal definition of a terminal diagnosis; it is life expectancy not foreseen beyond a six-month period. Our campaign aims to protect that period of employment. We protect the period of employment at the start of life—an employer cannot sack a pregnant worker. What we are saying is that they should not be able to sack a worker who has received a terminal diagnosis.
I want to declare an interest: before I got elected, I was the midlands regional secretary for the Trades Union Congress, and one of the campaigns I worked on was called the Dying to Work campaign. The campaign was about people with a terminal illness in the world of work. We found that some employers would dismiss a worker with a terminal illness based on the grounds of capability—the bulk of employers would not dream of doing so—and we wanted to protect workers during that period, so we developed a voluntary charter that employers could sign up to that would protect workers from being dismissed because of their condition and protect their freedom to choose whether to keep working, reduce their hours or step away all together.
We put the choice into the hands of the individual. The only time that that choice is taken away from the individual is if an employer wants to take that choice for them by dismissing them from work due to their diagnosis. The charter protects employees’ benefits, such as death in service payments, protects workers’ access to a supportive and understanding workplace, and gives terminally ill workers the freedom to make the choices that are right for them without the extra stress and worry. We launched that charter in 2016, and it now protects over 1.5 million working people in this country, because employers have signed up.
I thank my hon. Friend for the work that he has done on the campaign across the midlands and across the country. I was very proud to support it when I was last in this place. The sheer volume of workers who are now protected is testament to my hon. Friend’s hard work and his ability to tell such a compelling story. Could he enlighten me on whether the House of Commons, the House of Lords and the various Government Departments, which are huge employers, have signed up to the campaign? If they have not, could I extend a hand of friendship to him to help him ensure that they sign up as soon as possible?
We managed to get the campaign promoted as best practice by the Department for Work and Pensions—meaning that if employers, through their disability awareness scheme, ever go to the Government in relation to how to treat workers with a terminal illness, they are always signposted to the campaign—but no Government Departments have signed up. However, I am aware that with the new Government coming in, those discussions are now taking place.
Although the progress made so far is commendable, it is not universal. That is why we have called this debate—so that we can the extend this right to all those who are ill. I want to recognise Richard Oliver, who is in the Public Gallery and who has been part of the campaign right from the outset; it is great that he has been able to join us today.
As I said, it is still legal in this country to sack a terminally ill worker on the grounds of capability. At a time when someone is dealing with a devastating diagnosis, they could also face the loss of their livelihood and their financial security. That is not acceptable. There has been significant discussion about dying with dignity recently, particularly relating to the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill. Although that Bill has rightly captured our attention, I do not want us to lose momentum now that it has gone to Committee. These people are on a path—a journey, if we can call it that—and they should not have to worry about whether they will lose their job while they face that.
Most people will never have to think about the implications of working with a terminal diagnosis, and most employers would not dream of firing their terminally ill workers.
Big congratulations to my hon. Friend on the work he has done on this issue over many years. Does he agree that the six-month rule, which determines that a person is terminally ill—that they are dying and will not be here in six months—is too stressful? People need to get clarification from their doctor, in the most difficult circumstances, that they are going to die. I think that is absolutely stressful, and I speak with a personal situation in mind.
One of the things that has always got me is the number of personal stories people tell about what they have faced. We cannot remove those stories and those situations. I cannot imagine the distress, and I do not know if anybody else in here can. All I know is that I have met people who have gone through this experience, and that should never happen in our society. I have always said that the compassion and values that we hold as a society should not end at the front door of the workplace; they should be part and parcel of the workplace. That is why it is so important that we discuss issues like this.
Most people will never have to think about the implications of working with a terminal diagnosis. Those who receive a terminal diagnosis and their families should not have to worry about paying the bills or about their job, on top of everything else. The reality is that not all terminal illnesses are treated equally under the law. The prior part of employment, when people fall under the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, is protected. It is when they get a terminal diagnosis, and when capability comes into it, that they are not protected. That is the part that needs to be protected; that is the loophole in the law.
I met a lady who worked for Nottinghamshire county council. The council signed up to the Dying to Work charter on a Thursday, although she had passed away on the Friday of the previous week. She had decided that she wanted to stay at work because that was where her friends—her social outlet—were; she did not want to sit at home, bouncing off the walls. She took that decision for herself, and her employer did the right thing by saying, “We’ll give you the freedom as far as that decision is concerned.”
Many people are proud of the work they do. They often wake up early to work long, hard days to provide for themselves and their loved ones. They greet and talk to their colleagues, who they see almost every day. They deserve dignity and respect, and they deserve our support.
Some terminally ill people may want to continue working as long as they can, finding peace and distraction in their professional lives. Others may decide to step away, prioritising their family and themselves. While the Government are rightly levelling up workers’ rights, we must seize the moment to ensure those with terminal illness are treated with fairness, compassion and the respect they deserve in the workplace. Protections like those enshrined in our Dying to Work charter should be universal, not optional. Legislation must be introduced to best protect vulnerable people in our workplaces. In the meantime, it is essential that we persuade as many employers as possible, including Government Departments, to sign up to the Dying to Work charter to protect as many workers as possible. Dignity at work is not a privilege; it is a right.
Some organisations do have death in service payments, but if a person is fired, they and their family are no longer entitled to any of those benefits. Every worker deserves to know that they will not be forced out of their job when they need it most. People at the end of their life should be able to decide whether they want to continue to work.
I was delighted to hear that the Government will be implementing the Dying to Work charter as best practice in Departments, but we need to go further. We need to review the Equality Act 2010 so that there are not gaps in rights for those who are terminally ill. We need to protect people’s employment when they are ill. We need to give the most vulnerable people in our society the right to choose and the right to dignity. We need to implement new legislation to protect these workers.
Protecting employment for those who are terminally ill means that they can focus on what truly matters, whether that is continuing to contribute to work or stepping away to spend their remaining time with their loved ones. Ultimately, that choice should be theirs and theirs alone, and if we need to we should protect that choice in law.
Order. I remind Members that if they wish to speak, they must bob.
It is a real pleasure to speak in this debate. I commend the hon. Member for Corby and East Northamptonshire (Lee Barron) for giving us the opportunity to participate, and congratulate him on his introduction, which showed an understanding of what the issue means to his constituents. I hope I will convey that too.
This is an opportunity to highlight the much-needed help and support that the Government must facilitate. I am pleased to see the Minister and the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Mid Buckinghamshire (Greg Smith), in their places, and look forward to their contributions. I believe that the Minister understands the necessity for this debate, and I understand that the Government are going to make changes; the Minister will respond to that later.
This is one of those bread and butter issues, which I love because they make a difference to people’s lives. There are important constitutional and foreign policy issues but these matters are the ones we deal with every week in our offices. These are not just bread and butter issues; they are literally life-and-death issues, and the hon. Gentleman has set that scene so well.
I want to advocate for the tremendous work of the wonderful charity, Marie Curie. We all deal with many charities in our constituencies, as others will mention. I have lots in my constituency, but I am a supporter of Marie Curie in word and deed. I am not better than anybody else—I never claim to be and I never will be—but I support that charity’s work financially and in other ways. I have been to the Marie Curie centre in Knock, Belfast, where the staff provide real help to each person and their family. That must be an incredibly hard job and every Marie Curie nurse deserves credit.
I am thankful for the support that Marie Curie gives to patients and families in the throes of cancer journeys. Those are journeys that I and constituents have dealt with over the years. I am also grateful for the information that Marie Curie consolidates and provides us with to enable our fuller understanding. Information from those in the thick of funding and practical issues is invaluable. We need to dig deep individually and collectively within our constituencies. When loved ones pass away, they often leave something in their will to Marie Curie or other charities, which helps them do more for other people on life’s last journey.
I want to focus heavily on the recently published report, “Dying in Poverty 2024”. If hon. Members have not had the opportunity to read it, I suggest it may be worth a look. It looks at the financial insecurity faced by many people at the end of life. Research found that some 111,000 people each year die in poverty. Wow; I can hardly take in that figure, especially in this modern society—this wealthy Britain—that we live in. That figure needs to settle into all our minds. The report also found that working-age people are at much greater risk of dying in poverty: 28% of those who died in 2023 died in poverty, compared with 16% of pension-age people. Anyone who is not shocked by those figures must be unfeeling—they must not understand—but I believe that everyone in this room is as shocked as I am.
For that reason, a lot of workers with a terminal diagnosis decide that they must continue working for as long as they can. The hon. Member for Corby and East Northamptonshire referred to one lady who wanted to keep working right up until the end, because work was where her social group was, even though she would have found doing so incredibly difficult. Unfortunately, the experience of many workers is that their employer either is unsympathetic—I am sure that some are sympathetic—or puts up barriers to their continuing in work. A 2022 survey of human resources decision makers found that only 44% of organisations and workplaces have policies in place for staff with a terminal illness. If businesses do not have those policies in place, they should. They have to prepare for that eventuality and be able to help workers through the process.
A number of employers might either not have a policy or simply be unaware, for some reason, of the need to be more empathetic with people who find themselves in such a horrendously difficult position. The advantage of a debate such as this one, secured by the hon. Member for Corby and East Northamptonshire (Lee Barron) and supported by all hon. Members, is that it can raise awareness and hopefully bring action from Government Departments and employers, which need to take action and show support.
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention; I do not want to give him a big head, but his interventions often capture the focus of a debate in one sentence. If the companies have forgotten or are unaware, it is time that they were aware. The question is how we can make that happen.
As I say, only 44% of organisations and workplaces have policies in place for staff with a terminal illness, so if a worker with a terminal illness loses their job, they lose their income. The impact could not be any more real: they may lose any death in service payments that they have earned through their lifetime of work, because those are payable only to those who die while still in employment. The hon. Member for Corby and East Northamptonshire referred to the lady who stayed at work for her social circle of friends. Perhaps it helped her—I am sorry to say this—to ensure that when she passed away she had the payments that she should have had.
I agree with the Marie Curie charity that there is therefore a need for strengthened employment rights for people with a terminal illness, alongside an improved safety net to provide safety or support through our welfare system. When the Minister responds, I am sure that he or his civil servants and staff will have some figures from Marie Curie; if there has not been engagement with the organisation, I suggest that there should be.
I commend the hon. Member for Corby and East Northamptonshire (Lee Barron) for raising this important issue. Does my hon. Friend agree that there also needs to be workplace protection for the parents of children who have been given a terminal diagnosis? When a child is given a terminal diagnosis in such tragic circumstances, parents are worried because they have to leave their work to care for their children. Does he agree that there needs to be better protection for them?
I thank my hon. Friend. Others might not have thought about that issue, because there are always the two adults—the mum and dad who are in a relationship—and it is their child, but if their child has a terminal illness, how does that impact them in work? They need to be there to take their child to the hospital, and to be there for their child in the last days of their life. I know that the Minister understands those issues; perhaps he can give us an encouraging answer to these questions.
Life is tough for families in full-time employment, never mind those with reduced income and greater costs. Changes must be made to universal credit— I know that that is not the Minister’s responsibility—to allow those in full-time employment to access help and support for their care and time off work. All my staff members understand the benefits system very well, but I am fortunate to have one particular staff member who spends every day of her five and a half days a week—the half day is probably voluntary, because she is a lady with compassion and understanding—working on benefits. As elected representatives, we try to offer all we can to our constituents. All Members do. That lady fills out universal credit applications, personal independence payment applications, employment and support allowance applications or, probably in most cases, attendance allowance applications, although sometimes it is for families with small children.
These are really difficult times. I do the forms myself; I am not better than anybody else. There is a box on the second or third page that asks whether the applicant has a terminal illness. When you tick that box, it moves you into a different system. I have to be fair to the Department: when that box is ticked, the Department moves immediately. I know that from cases that we have done through my office, and other Members will confirm it when they get their chance to speak. An urgency is put into the process and it quickly moves on.
The hon. Member for Corby and East Northamptonshire highlighted in communication to Members that the purpose of this debate is clear:
“The last thing someone with a terminal diagnosis and their family should be worrying about at the end of their life is how they will be able to pay the bills.”
Wow. The Government should remove that equation for people. Many people’s key social networks exist at work, and I believe that those who are terminally ill should have the choice of when they finish work. That is what the debate is all about.
I agree wholeheartedly with the hon. Gentleman’s view. More than that, I will work with him and with the Government to achieve that—to simply do more for those with terminal cancer. Just because charities do such an incredible job of raising funds and caring, that does not absolve our Government and our Minister of their responsibility; I say that with fairness and with respect. It is our duty to ensure that we fulfil these obligations. We must do better.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Edward. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Corby and East Northamptonshire (Lee Barron) for securing this important debate on the employment rights of people with a terminal illness. I pay tribute to his tireless advocacy on behalf of workers facing unimaginable challenges.
Receiving a terminal diagnosis is one of the most devastating things that can happen to a person. In that moment, the focus should be on spending precious time with loved ones, seeking medical care and living the life you have left. As a humanist, I believe we have only one life, so a good life and a good death are very important to me.
Unfortunately, for too many people a terminal diagnosis is compounded by the fear of losing their livelihood and the security that employment provides. As things stand, it is still legal in this country to dismiss someone with a terminal illness on grounds of capability. That is not only deeply unjust, but fundamentally inhumane. The last thing that anyone with a terminal illness should have to worry about is how they will keep a roof over their head or provide for their family. People’s lives do not end at the moment they get a terminal diagnosis. They are still mums, dads, colleagues and breadwinners.
Many people with a terminal illness live longer than six months. I associate myself with the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Blyth and Ashington (Ian Lavery). I also acknowledge the Dying to Work campaign, which has already secured protections for more than 1.5 million workers through its voluntary charter. The charter, developed in partnership with the TUC, encourages employers to commit to supporting workers with a terminal illness, ensuring that they have the choice to remain in work for as long as they wish, without the fear of dismissal. The campaign’s success demonstrates that compassion and practicality can go hand in hand in the workplace.
The voluntary charter is laudable, but it is not enough. It is not right that the ability to work at the end of life depends on the good will of individual employers. Workers should not have to rely on luck to ensure that their rights are protected at the most vulnerable time of their life. The current patchwork approach creates inequality. Perhaps larger employers with more resources are more likely to sign up to the Dying to Work charter; perhaps smaller employers do not have the capacity or simply do not know about it. This disparity underscores the need for consistent, nationwide standards to ensure that no worker with a terminal illness is left behind.
Some may argue that mandatory protections could place an undue burden on businesses, particularly small and medium-sized enterprises. I think we can find a balance. Being offered reasonable adjustments, flexible working and the ability to work from home can enable terminally ill employees to continue contributing in ways that are meaningful for them and for their employer. Many employers already see the value of retaining experienced workers who want to stay engaged.
Let me share some statistics from my constituency of Morecambe and Lunesdale. According to recent figures, over 25% of the workforce in my area are employed in industries such as retail and hospitality, where job security is often already precarious. Those sectors also report higher levels of sickness, making the need for robust protections even more pressing. Additionally, local advocacy groups have highlighted that the financial strain of a terminal diagnosis can have a disproportionate impact on low-income families, with many struggling to take on the extra costs of a terminal diagnosis, particularly in the light of the recent cost of living crisis. The lived experience behind those numbers is a stark reminder of the urgency of the issue.
Ensuring that terminally ill workers in Morecambe and Lunesdale and across the country are protected from unfair dismissal is not just about individual dignity; it is about strengthening the social fabric of our communities. There is also a compelling economic case for action. Retaining employees with terminal illnesses can reduce turnover costs, maintain productivity and strengthen workplace morale by fostering a culture of compassion and respect. Even beyond those practical considerations, the moral imperative is clear. A just society does not abandon its citizens in their greatest time of need.
As policymakers, we must lead the way in ensuring that every worker facing a terminal diagnosis has the legal protection that they deserve. That includes the right to remain in employment, if they want, for as long as they wish; access to reasonable adjustments; and the reassurance that their job and their dignity are secure. I urge the Government to take inspiration from the Dying to Work charter and enshrine its principles in law. Let us send a clear message that terminal illness is not a reason to strip someone of their livelihood. Let us ensure that no worker faces the additional burden of financial insecurity or social isolation as they navigate the most challenging period of their life.
In closing, I want to reflect on the experience of those who have lived this reality. Work is not just a means of earning a living; it is often a source of identity, purpose and community. For those facing a terminal illness, having the choice to continue working or to leave should not be a luxury. It should be a right.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Corby and East Northamptonshire (Lee Barron) for securing this important debate.
As a proud trade unionist woman from the east midlands, I am hugely proud to speak in this debate. The campaign to give terminally ill people rights in the workplace was kick-started with the incredible voice and determination of an east midlands GMB member Jacci Woodcock, who in June 2012 was sadly diagnosed with terminal breast cancer. It became apparent very early on to Jacci that her workplace was not going to support her. Jacci drove this campaign and was quoted as saying:
“I happily accept my fate, but I am not happy that other workers who don’t have my vision, tenacity and strength suffer at the hands of unscrupulous employers.”
I had the honour of meeting Jacci in Nottinghamshire, when Nottinghamshire county council adopted the Dying to Work charter—something that I know has benefited many workers to this day.
Sadly, I have personally witnessed the trauma, anxiety and upset that is caused when a terminal illness is diagnosed. In times of such upheaval and distress, I am a strong advocate for those who are suffering to have options and be able to make choices. Some will want to stop working straightaway and are financially able to do so, but others will not or cannot. Some will receive a lot of comfort from being able to continue as normal a life as possible for as long as they can. Workers should be able to make that choice, and workplaces should be equipped and ready to support that. There are still far too many HR departments and bosses across the country who see terminal illness as a reason, based on capability, to end a person’s employment status.
But I say this must change. That is why, over 12 years ago, Jacci made that stand not only for her, but for others—for those who have not even been diagnosed yet, for those whose only contact with the real world was through their workplace, for those who have dedicated their whole life to a particular business or trade. I wish to thank Jacci and her family. I place it on the record that I will continue to campaign for that choice for those diagnosed with a terminal illness. Dignity in the workplace is a right. We here have a duty and a crucial role to make sure that that happens.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Edward. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Corby and East Northamptonshire (Lee Barron), whom I have known for a long time, for securing the debate.
I declare an interest: I am a member of the Justice Committee, a solicitor and a member of the GMB executive council. The GMB was instrumental in running the “Dying to Work” campaign, and the TUC subsequently adopted the charter. As of March 2024, over 1.5 million workers in the UK have employers who have committed to the charter, which requires employers to
“Review sick pay and sickness absence procedures and include a specific statement that they will not dismiss any person with a terminal diagnosis because of their condition”,
as well as take other steps to support the terminally ill employee at work.
There is very little employment law that deals with terminal illness, but we do have laws relating to disability discrimination and laws under which an employer has a duty to make reasonable adjustments for employees at work, and those laws will apply to employees who are terminally ill. The NHS defines a terminal illness as a health condition
“that you’ll most likely die from”.
Under the Equality Act 2010, people with disabilities are protected against discrimination at work. Disabilities are defined as any impairment that has a long-term and substantial adverse effect on the person’s ability to carry out “normal day-to-day activities”. Terminal illness will be classed as a disability, at least from the point where the illness begins to have an impact on the person’s ability to carry out day-to-day activities; so the Equality Act will give the employee the right not to be treated less favourably at work, and the right to reasonable adjustments to enable them to stay at work. People with cancer, HIV infection or multiple sclerosis will automatically be considered to have a disability, regardless of their symptoms. Correspondingly, anyone who is terminally ill should also be considered to have a disability regardless of their symptoms.
Under the Equality Act, the employer must make reasonable adjustments so that disabled employees, including those who are terminally ill, can continue in their job if they wish. The employer may, for example, change the employee’s working hours and working patterns, reduce their workload, reallocate duties, grant time off for treatment and medical appointments, and allow working from home. An employer must consider an employee’s terminal illness and symptoms when deciding what reasonable adjustments should be made to retain them in employment, rather than dismiss them in accordance with a sickness absence policy.
A lot of workers with a terminal diagnosis will decide that they want to continue working for as long as they can because they need the financial security, or to avoid losing any death in service benefits, as my hon. Friend the Member for Corby and East Northamptonshire mentioned, or because they find that work is a helpful distraction from their illness. Parliament recently gave Second Reading to a Bill that would give people a choice to die with dignity. Surely we can give those who are dying the dignity of work for as long as they need it.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Edward. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Corby and East Northamptonshire (Lee Barron) on securing this important debate. I draw attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests and my membership of the GMB.
I add my thanks to midlands TUC for the work it has done for many years to promote and champion this campaign. I will also mention the work that the GMB midlands region has done in connection with the cause. Two names are on the record, and I echo the comments made by my hon. Friends the Members for Corby and East Northamptonshire and for Sherwood Forest (Michelle Welsh). I pay tribute to Jacci Woodcock, who struck the spark that lit the flame, and my friend of many years, Richard Oliver. It is a pleasure to see him in the Public Gallery. He has brought real passion and expertise to the cause.
We have heard today that there are weaknesses and gaps in the Equality Act. I hope that this is the subject of consensus across the House. When in 2022 the then Minister, the hon. Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman), responded for the Government go a debate on the Terminal Illness (Support and Rights) Bill, although he acknowledged that many workers who have a terminal illness are covered by the definition of disability under the Equality Act, he added:
“I say, ‘the overwhelming majority’, but one thing that we might want to look at offline, as it were, is trying to ensure that that is everybody”—[Official Report, 18 November 2022; Vol. 722, c. 1010.]
who is covered. We are still not in that place today. Although a terminally ill worker can in principle bring a case before an employment tribunal, in too many cases, sadly, there are obvious barriers to doing so. My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton West (Warinder Juss) has already pointed out that there is very little case law in this area. Although in theory a posthumous employment tribunal case can be brought, in practice it rarely happens.
Although the definition of disability inherited from the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 was probably not written with terminal illness in mind, there are circumstances where a terminally ill worker who is discriminated against at work would not fall under the protections of the Act, but someone in the early and possibly asymptomatic stages of a terminal illness would fall into that category. So there is a strong and compelling case for revisiting the Equality Act, but there are steps that can be taken in the intervening period.
Section 22 of the Equality Act established powers to bring in regulations on matters to be taken into account when employers and other bodies make reasonable adjustments. If regulations were brought in for the purpose of establishing that it is reasonable to take certain steps to accommodate the needs of workers with a terminal illness, that would be a helpful and clarifying step, which would be welcomed by employers as well as workers who develop a terminal illness, because employers are looking for clear guidance in this important area.
Similarly, the Equality and Human Rights Commission statutory code of practice on employment is the consolidated set of statutory guidance on the application of the Equality Act in the workplace, but that code of practice has not been updated since 2011 and it does not clearly or explicitly cover or reference terminal illness at any point. Were that code updated to take account of the particular problems facing workers who have a terminal illness, that would also play a positive and constructive role. Tribunals must have regard to the guidance from the Government Equalities Office, now the Women and Equalities Unit, on matters to be taken into account in determining questions on the definition of disability. That code has not been updated since 2013, and it does not clearly cover matters relating to terminal illness. Some helpful clarification that could be introduced through that guidance. Nevertheless, some problems cannot be addressed unless and until the Equality Act itself is revisited. The point has already been made that workers who develop a specified illness—cancer, for example—automatically fall under the definition of disability, but people who develop a different terminal illness do not. There is a very strong case for revisiting the Equality Act in that regard.
It is welcome that the new Government have made commitments in the “Make Work Pay” document, which states:
“Terminally ill people deserve security and decency during the hardest period in their lives.”
The Government encourage employers and trade unions to negotiate and sign up to the Dying to Work charter, and will work with trade unions and others to ensure that workers diagnosed with a terminal illness are treated with respect and dignity and supported at work. We all look forward to hearing from the Minister about the progress that has been made on those commitments.
We have heard a lot in this Parliament about the importance of a good death and the steps that we need to take in all areas of public policy and law to ensure that people are entitled to and receive support and dignified treatment at the close of their day. That must apply in the field of work and employment as much as in the health service and in all the other respects that we have considered during very emotive and considered debates in this Parliament. It must be hoped that, in the course of the four or five years of this Parliament, real and meaningful progress will be made to extend the charter and other protections to the hundreds of thousands of people who will, sadly, fall ill with a terminal illness and need support at work.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Sir Edward. I extend my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Corby and East Northamptonshire (Lee Barron) on securing this important and timely debate on the Dying to Work campaign and all that it entails.
I want to highlight the work of the TUC, particularly in the east midlands, spearheaded by Richard Oliver of the GMB trade union. He was the first person to introduce me to the Dying to Work campaign and to Jacci Woodcock, a long-term champion of the campaign. I have met her in this place, at the Labour party conference, at the Labour party east midlands regional conference and on a number of other occasions. She has been absolutely tireless and should be proud that her work on the issue she brought to the attention of her trade union has made such a significant difference to so many people in this country. It went from being one person’s personal issue to making over 1.5 million people’s working lives easier in very difficult circumstances.
Jacci’s work continues to make a difference. Last Thursday in my constituency, I was delighted to join Rachel Harvey and Lesley Charlesworth-Brown, the chair and deputy CEO respectively of Saint Andrew’s Hospice, when they signed the Dying to Work charter. Having been made aware of it during my previous time as a Member of Parliament, they had considered it and had been implementing it in practice anyway, but they decided to formalise their commitment to their staff, reflecting the area of work they are all involved in, and demonstrate their support for the charter. On the practical impact that has had for their staff, they said it has put in place an additional level of reassurance and flexibility. It has also had an impact on their patients: those who are in hospice care facing the end of their life find it reassuring that those caring for them do not have to deal with workplace precarity, and the staff are able to focus their time and energy in the way that they want to.
St Andrew’s Hospice has a reputation not only as a care giver but as a caring employer, which says a huge amount about those leading the organisation. It also helps to spread the word further that employers are still continuing to sign up, and that the momentum is still there. I sincerely hope that by taking this step, St Andrew’s will lead the way and encourage more employers in my constituency and across the country to sign up to the charter and to continue to give support and reassurance to people in their final months.
It is a pleasure, as ever, to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Corby and East Northamptonshire (Lee Barron) on bringing this extremely important debate to the House and on his work over the years before he became an MP, particularly in the midlands, which was exemplary, to say the least.
Sir Edward, can you imagine what it is like when the consultant tells you—perhaps you are at work and you get a phone call—that you have got terminal cancer? Your life flashes before you. It is horrendous, and not only for you; your family, your workmates and everyone else is completely devastated. Yet here in the UK employers still have the ability to decide whether to dismiss somebody under those circumstances, on the basis of capability, or allow them to remain in employment. Quite frankly, it is appalling. It does not befit this wonderful country that we live in.
When they get telt they have terminal cancer or a terminal illness, and are in work, different people have different views, but many have not got different options, because it is down to employers. There are good employers and bad employers. That has always been the case and it always will be. That is why it should be enshrined in law that people with a terminal condition cannot be dismissed on grounds of capability in any way, shape or form.
Different people are different. Some people want to work, because they see it as a distraction from their condition. Some people have a condition that makes it impossible for them to work. Some people want to fight their grave illness; others want to lie under the duvet and sadly spend the rest of their days in the house, not in work. But people need to have options, and people need to be supported by the Government.
I can give personal testimony, because I have experienced this situation only this year. A very close relative—it was my brother, actually—was in this position, and it was terrible. For pension reasons, to continue in employment and to receive other support, he had to prove to his employer that he really was terminally ill. For someone to do that, they have to get a letter from their GP to prove that they are going to die. The definition of “terminally ill” is that someone will die within six months, so he and his family had to seek a letter saying that he was not going to be around in six months. That is absolute stress of the highest level; it is a pre-death certificate.
Can it be right that working people are tret in this way? You have got enough stress when you have been telt—by the consultant, the doctor, the hospital, the GP—that you have not got that much time left. Some people want to get on and put their affairs in order; others want to spend time with their family. But people should have the right to work, and the right to continue in employment, if they can.
Other speakers have mentioned financial issues. Of course, lots of people who get a terminal illness while they are in work have family, including kids, as well as mortgages, cars and loans, and they cannot just have their financial position severed because of bad employers. I think it was my hon. Friend the Member for Corby and East Northamptonshire who said that dignity at work is not a privilege, but a right. I agree. Basically, I think that the Government should consider the position of terminally ill individuals in the workplace.
With regard to needing absolute proof that you are dying, I am not sure. Imagine having to ask the doctor, “Can you put it in writing that I’m not going to be here?” It is dreadful. That is something we need to look at. I think it is right that the Government should enshrine in legislation that employers cannot dismiss anyone on grounds of capability if they can prove that they have a terminal illness, whether that proof is a letter saying they have six months to live—a pre-death certificate—or not. The employer should recognise that proof and it should be up to the individual worker to decide which of the options available to them to take.
It is commendable that 1.5 million workers and a whole number of companies have signed up to the Dying to Work campaign, but I think we have about 44 million workers in this country, and we have good employers and bad employers. We need to take the choice away from the employers; we need to enshrine it in law and support people who face the most dreadful situation that could ever be imagined.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Edward. I thank the hon. Member for Corby and East Northamptonshire (Lee Barron) for securing this debate and for all the campaigning that he has done on this issue for many years.
Around 900,000 people of working age live with cancer and each year 127,000 people of working age are diagnosed with cancer. Cancer charities, with the University of Loughborough and the Centre for Progressive Change—they have been particularly helpful to me in preparing for the debate, so I send them my deepest thanks—estimated earlier this year that upwards of 30,000 people are going through their cancer treatment on statutory sick pay, which offers them an income of just £23 a day. We are in a situation in which people do not receive adequate sick pay. Although that impacts millions of people with all types of illness, it is especially pronounced for those with a more advanced or terminal diagnosis, as Macmillan Cancer Support has told me. People are left with very serious concerns.
These types of cancers involve prolonged treatment, often leading to substantial additional costs. In 2023, Young Lives vs Cancer, whose representatives I met last week, found that young cancer patients and their families spend almost £700 extra a month following a cancer diagnosis. Reportedly, that figure has increased by 15% since 2017. Quite simply, there are financial costs that follow a cancer diagnosis. Young Lives vs Cancer research found that 96% of young cancer patients and their families had to pay extra for their travel. The average came to more than £250 a month, with £30 extra on childcare, £144 extra on food and £68 extra on energy every month, along with other costs. Higher costs coupled with an inadequate income can put people’s recovery at risk. In the case of a terminal diagnosis, it can cause financial hardship at the point that the person is receiving end of life care.
Anthony Nolan’s 2023 survey revealed that the cost of living issues were so severe for some patients that they cut back on food and avoided turning the heating on, and three in 10 people were unable to afford their rent or mortgage during the 12-month treatment period. Does the Minister agree with the Liberal Democrats that the current, broken rate of sick pay should be fixed, and that reform must be on the table as soon as the financial situation allows? Importantly, does he also agree that we should support small employers with statutory sick pay costs and consult them on the best way to do that?
Before I conclude, I want to address a key point about children and young people’s cancer. Although some may not know that they are terminal, the aggressive nature of cancers such as blood cancer, skin cancer and brain tumours means that the situation can change very quickly. Therefore, they may not have immediate access to things such as the special rules for terminal illness route for benefits, because they do not perfectly fit the criteria, which include things such as being on curative treatment or falling under the strict six-month definition of “terminal”. That leaves young patients liable to the three-month qualifying period for access to disability living allowance and personal independence payment, despite having a confirmed diagnosis. On top of that, application processing takes about 20 weeks, so some young people have passed away before their benefits have come through because of red tape. Perhaps the Minister is not aware of that, but how can the Government allow that state of affairs to continue? It really is time for change.
Why does having cancer for three months suddenly make it more real to the Department for Work and Pensions than it was at the moment of diagnosis? I would be grateful if the Minister met me and cancer charities to discuss that. It seems deeply cruel to allow this state of affairs, which prevailed under the Conservatives, to continue under the new Government.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. We have heard a good and powerful debate this morning. I thank the hon. Member for Corby and East Northamptonshire (Lee Barron) for securing and leading the debate. As he said, he has championed the Dying to Work campaign for many years, including in his role at the TUC in the midlands before his election to this place.
As we have heard from many hon. Members, the campaign was founded by Jacci Woodcock, a sales manager from Derbyshire, who was forced out of her job after being diagnosed with breast cancer in 2012, when she was given 12 months to live. Jacci was appointed a Member of the Order of the British Empire in the Queen’s birthday honours list in 2019, and I commend her hard work over the years.
As a result of Jacci’s work, many people have been protected from unfair dismissal and provided with invaluable support following the tragedy of a terminal diagnosis. It is clear from this debate, and more widely, that there is more to be done to support people with a terminal diagnosis. Being diagnosed with a terminal illness is often sudden and unexpected, meaning those with the diagnosis and their families are forced to adapt to the new reality with little or no notice. People often decline quickly and, by the time the family work out what support is available, their loved one is in desperate need of help or, in some cases, has tragically already passed away.
In other cases, despite the diagnosis, the person may have many months or even years left, and is willing and able to keep working, with some minor adaptations to their workplace arrangements. In my research for this debate, I found some startling statistics. According to the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, just a third of UK organisations have specific provision for those with a terminal illness, meaning they have no policy, guidance or line manager or awareness training. It appears that the hesitancy of so many Brits to discuss health and serious illness has created a stigma about raising this issue in the workplace. That means that employers and employees often have to make it up as they go along, rather than follow standardised guidance developed by experts in the field.
As the Dying to Work campaign highlights, terminally ill people often do not have time to adapt to the reasonable adjustments put in place by employers, and are often forced to undergo stressful HR procedures. There are many financial worries left behind for families, as other hon. Members have mentioned. Cancer Research UK projects that one third of Brits will be diagnosed with cancer in their working life. According to a Macmillan Cancer Support survey, 37% of cancer patients have experienced discrimination on return to work.
It is vital to end the employer lottery. Individuals are currently at the mercy of their employer far too much, and often do not know their rights or what support is available. As the population ages and treatment options improve, more and more Brits are going to be living and working with a terminal illness. At present, the legal position of terminally ill employees mainly depends on the written and verbal agreement between employee and employer.
There is little specific law covering terminal illness, when it is clearly going to become ever more present in society. I suggest one of the best ways to help people with a terminal illness is to improve the information available on diagnosis, and to encourage employers to develop best practice guidance and training, so that any employee diagnosed with a terminal illness can receive support as quickly as possible. That would avoid the situation where even compassionate employers are playing a game of catch up or having to make it up as they go along.
It is vital that people understand their rights under the Equality Act 2010, which makes it illegal to discriminate against people with a disability and legislates that employers must make reasonable adjustments so that employees can do their work. That would include flexible working hours, reduced workload, reallocation of duties, time off for treatment and, where appropriate, working from home. Employees must be made aware that they can and should make the most of sick leave, extended special and compassionate leave, annual leave and flexible working.
There is no benefit specifically designed to help people with a terminal illness, but special rules are in place to expedite access to benefits for those with less than 12 months to live. Previously, that was limited to those with less than six months to live; I am proud that the last Government extended that period to 12 months, which in turn has provided quicker access to benefits, higher payments for certain benefits and the avoidance of the need for a medical assessment. Those with a terminal illness can access benefits designed to help with the additional costs of disability and ill health, such as disability living allowance, personal independence payments and attendance allowance. For those with a disability or in ill health, there are also the benefits designed to act as income replacements, such as employment and support allowance and universal credit.
I will end by mentioning the employment rights of not just those with a terminal illness but those who care for them—the spouses, children, brothers and sisters forced to take time off work to care for a terminally ill loved one. I am proud that the previous Government passed the Carer’s Leave Act 2023, which created a new statutory right to carer’s leave that came into effect in April 2024.
Employees are now entitled to take one week of unpaid leave a year if they have caring responsibilities, and that leave entitlement is available from the first day of employment, with no qualifying period. On top of that, employees also have the right to reasonable time off if a dependant is ill or injured or if their care arrangements are disrupted. Carers are protected at work from discrimination by association, and the Equality Act 2010 protects those caring for disabled or elderly people from discrimination or harassment.
I am aware of previous attempts to introduce legislation to address the injustices that come with a terminal illness—most recently, a private Member’s Bill proposed in 2022 by the former Member for Stockton North. For a range of reasons, these past attempts have not succeeded but I am committed to working with right hon. and hon. Members across the House to get these issues back on the agenda and improve the lives of those who, tragically, have a diagnosis of terminal illness, to make sure that in their final months they are supported and cared for with the compassion that they deserve.
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair this morning, Sir Edward. I start by referring to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, including my membership of the Unite and GMB unions; obviously, there is a particular reference to the GMB from one of the leading proponents of the campaign.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Corby and East Northamptonshire (Lee Barron) on securing this important debate. We have been talking about death recently: the Second Reading of the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill was an important moment in its own right and clearly raised a lot of interest across the country. It was also a wider discussion about how we approach the end of life as a society and as individuals—and indeed as employers, who are the subject of today’s debate. Today we are continuing the discussion about how we handle this important issue.
The private Member’s Bill proposed that only those with a terminal diagnosis who were expected to live for six months or less could come under its auspices, but there can be a considerable time between diagnosis and death. It is important that that time, however long it is, is considered carefully when it comes to how we better support people to live with dignity and fulfilment. Today’s debate has raised interesting points about how we best do that. My hon. Friend was right to say that the vast majority of employers would not dream of dismissing a terminally ill member of staff, but of course the Dying to Work campaign is a much broader look at how employers can support employees in that situation; the issue is not just the prohibition on dismissal.
We had contributions from a number of Back Benchers. As always, the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) made a thoughtful contribution. He paid tribute to Marie Curie’s work to provide wider support for individuals in this situation. I understand that colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions continue to engage with Marie Curie on the issue. He mentioned the “Dying in poverty” report, which I have not read, but will.
My hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (Lizzi Collinge) highlighted a number of measures that are already available—I will talk about those shortly—such as reasonable adjustments and flexible working, which enable those who want to carry on working to do so in a way that suits them. She made the important point that continuing to work is particularly important for people on lower incomes.
My hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood Forest (Michelle Welsh) paid tribute to the campaigner Jacci Woodcock; I echo her tribute, and those of all the other hon. Members who praised her work. Jacci Woodcock has brought the campaign to the attention of many parliamentarians over a number of years, and the fact that we are having this debate is a tribute to the work that she started all those years ago.
As I would have expected him to do, my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton West (Warinder Juss) gave a thorough legal analysis of the protections available. He noted, as did a number of hon. Members, that there is a lack of direct protection for people with a terminal illness. Equally, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Northfield (Laurence Turner) gave a characteristically thorough analysis of the situation. He made the important point that employers want clear guidance, and mentioned a number of relevant codes that may need to be updated. The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Mid Buckinghamshire (Greg Smith), also made the point that a number of employers do not have any policy at all; we can certainly take that away and look at it.
My hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes (Melanie Onn) made an important point about St Andrew’s hospice in particular: both the people who work there and those they help in their last days of life have protection, should it be needed. That is a reassurance to those in the hospice.
My hon. Friend the Member for Blyth and Ashington (Ian Lavery) spoke movingly about the awful moment when someone gets a diagnosis. He made the point, as did a number of hon. Members, that different people will react differently: some want to continue to work and carry on as best they can. He mentioned the potentially traumatic experience of having to notify one’s employer—seeing, in black and white, that there is a terminal illness. That is one of the challenges we would face if we were to legislate in this area.
The Liberal Democrat spokesperson, the hon. Member for Wokingham (Clive Jones), raised questions about statutory sick pay. He will be aware that the Employment Rights Bill will significantly increase the scope of those who are eligible for statutory sick pay by removing the lower earnings limit and the waiting days. I hope that his party will be able to support that Bill on Third Reading. He also mentioned raising benefits, and I will pass on his request to colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions who are responsible for the matter.
The hon. Member for Strangford, as well as a number of other Members, made the point that people with a terminal illness want the choice to work if they can. For some people, work forms a big part of their social group. Work is about dignity; it is about finding something that occupies a person’s mind other than thoughts about the terrible situation they are in. People should be able to continue to work if they want to. Of course, not everyone wants to, and not everyone can—this issue is not simple to characterise. Everyone reacts differently, and everyone is a different situation: their medical conditions and prognoses will all be very different. People will therefore need very different kinds of support, depending on their situation.
We must deal with this issue with sensitivity, but also with flexibility. We must not only make sure that protections are in place, but enable employers and employees to have the space and freedom to come to the arrangements that suit them best. A number of hon. Members referred to protections under the Equality Act. I remind hon. Members that anyone with a health condition that has a substantial and long-term effect on their ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities is classified as disabled and therefore has protection under that Act, whether as an employee or a job applicant. Certain chronic illnesses, such as cancer, entitle the employee to automatic protection under the Act.
The vast majority of people with a terminal illness should be covered by the Equality Act. However, I have heard what various Members have said—indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for Corby and East Northamptonshire, who introduced the debate, mentioned people who may not fit within the protections of that Act, and I am happy to have a further conversation with him to understand where the gaps are. There are also more general protections relating to unfair dismissal under the Employment Rights Act 1996.
As we know, terminal illness is a longer journey for some than for others. Some facing it may wish to carry on working; some may not. However, we need to think about what support is available for people. The individual placement and support in primary care programme provides support to unwell people who are out of work and to those who need support with their health to stay in work. The support available includes physical and psychological treatment, in recognition that illness, including terminal illness, can take many forms. Alongside that, the Government provide Access to Work grants to help with the extra costs of working beyond standard reasonable adjustments and tailored support for individuals through work coaching, among other support.
More generally, the Government provide employers with guidance on health disclosures and having conversations about health, as well as guidance on legal obligations. However, I take the point that that guidance is not well understood out there. We think our guidance is helpful for employers, but we need to make sure that they are aware of it and that it is as up-to-date as possible.
As we have already touched on, terminally ill people who wish to remain in work may need reasonable adjustments to do so. One of the options for people is to look at flexible working. Quite often, terminal illnesses have a debilitating effect on people’s energy levels, so being able to take time off flexibly is important. All employees have a statutory entitlement at the moment to request flexible working from day one of their employment. The new Employment Rights Bill will update that entitlement to introduce, among other changes, a requirement that any rejection of a flexible working request be a reasonable one. We hope that will make it more likely that any such request made by an individual with a terminal illness will be accepted.
If terminally ill people do fall out of work, they are eligible for enhanced access to a range of benefits under the special rules for end of life. Those rules allow for faster, easier access to certain benefits without needing to attend a medical assessment, and in most cases entitle the recipient to the highest rate of benefit. It is important to note that the rules apply to those who are unable to work and to those who wish to continue working, but require support to do so. The special rules for end of life aim to positively impact the quality of life of people with limited time left by ensuring that they can receive the financial support they are entitled to quickly and easily.
However, as hon. Members have already referred to, we are determined to go further. As we have heard, many employers have signed up to the Dying to Work charter, a TUC initiative that aims to unite employers under a standardised action plan to support employees as and when they are concerned. The charter represents a commitment from employers to ensure that all employees experiencing terminal illness have
“security of work, peace of mind and the right to choose the best course of action for themselves and their families which helps them through this challenging period with dignity and without undue financial loss”.
The Government have worked with ACAS to promote the charter and the TUC encourages union negotiators to seek clear agreement that their employer will abide by the charter’s principles. I am among 130 Members in this place who have already signed the charter as a commitment to my staff, because I believe that we should be setting an example as employers.
I understand that, as has been mentioned already, we are looking closely at being to implement the charter in full across Government. The Government People Group, which is in the Cabinet Office and responsible for civil service human resources, is currently working to develop a package of measures for all Departments as employers, including this Department, to introduce the Dying to Work charter. The Government People Group is due to meet the TUC in January to discuss that and a Minister will then be appointed to lead that work across Government. Once we are in a position to say that we have adopted the charter, we can hopefully be much more forward in encouraging others to sign up.
I conclude by thanking everyone for their contributions in the debate. It has been a very thoughtful and considered debate; we understand that there are concerns about how the law currently operates, but the employer needs space with the employee to agree arrangements appropriate to their own situations. We therefore believe that our current flexible approach is probably the right one and will deliver the best practical working arrangements, hopefully giving people not only the protection they need, but the flexibility and space to deal with this awful situation in the way that best suits them.
I thank everybody for coming to the debate. I do not see this as the end of something; I do not see this a 90-minute debate where we just say, “That’s good enough.” I see this as the start of a conversation that I think we need to have. I welcome the fact that the Government People Group is looking into this and I know it has had those discussions. That is a step in the right direction, but ultimately we need to ensure that people cannot slip through where there are gaps—and currently they can. That is where the conversation needs to continue. I think this debate has started that conversation and put us in a good place to continue it so, once again, many thanks indeed.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered the employment rights of people with a terminal illness.
(1 week, 1 day ago)
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I will call John Milne to move the motion, and then I will call the Minister to respond. There will not be an opportunity for the Member in charge to wind up, as is the convention in 30-minute debates. It is not normal for other Members to make a speech unless they have the permission of the Member in charge and the Minister, but they can intervene. I call John Milne.
I beg to move,
That this House has considered the potential impact of the Gatwick airspace modernisation review on local communities.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. My constituency of Horsham lies to the west and south of Gatwick airport. I have brought today’s debate in order to represent growing concerns from residents regarding the airspace modernisation process around Gatwick, which is part of the future airspace strategy implementation south, known as FASI-S.
Before I start, I would like to make it clear that I wholly support the modernisation process in principle. It is a vital step if we are to improve the efficiency of civil aviation, cut flight times and reduce carbon emissions. What I do question, however, is how we will get there. The process as it stands involves a significant conflict of interest. I would also like to emphasise that the airspace modernisation process is entirely separate from the second runway application at Gatwick, although it is going on at the same time and naturally gets confused in the public mind. The airspace modernisation process will go ahead whether or not Gatwick obtains permission to expand and is in fact part of a national process also being conducted at 19 other airports across the UK.
I commend the hon. Gentleman for securing this debate. I hope I can help him and the Minister as well. For all airport modernisation reviews, the issue of sound is always of extreme importance. For example, both major airports in Northern Ireland, Belfast International and Belfast City, have residential areas nearby. Provisions must be in place to tackle excessive noise at certain times. So does the hon. Member agree that any airspace modernisation review must make the matter of noise a top priority to ensure that local communities are not negatively impacted by airspace expansion?
Indeed, as I will come on to, noise is the primary issue at stake here. Gatwick Airport Ltd, referred to as GAL, is a private company. As the operator at Gatwick, it has been tasked with masterminding the airspace review process. It is subject to oversight from a public body, the Civil Aviation Authority. Similarly, Heathrow and other airports across the country are carrying out their own strategy implementation consultation processes for their own areas. The assumption is that each airport knows its own patch better than anyone else, so they are the best qualified to do the job. However, in the case of Gatwick, serious concerns have been raised. Now that we have reached stage three, which is the public consultation phase, many of my constituents and parish councils are concerned. They are worried about the impacts the proposals will have on public health, the objectivity of the process itself and whether the three shortlisted choices actually represent any kind of choice at all.
The proposed changes all involve using a new, previously not overflown flight path. Currently, planes taking off to the west climb for about 6k out before turning south to the coast. But the new route makes a much earlier turn south at about 2k out. The net effect of this change is to separate the western and southern route paths much earlier than currently, which enables a reduction in the interval between flights from two minutes down to 60 seconds. That in turn would enable the airport operator to build significantly more take-off slots into their schedules. The value of that increase in capacity is enormous, potentially hundreds of millions of pounds over the long term.
Why should the change in flight path matter so much to my constituents? Because the sharper turns mean that thousands of flights a year will henceforth directly overfly the villages of Rusper, Warnham and Slinfold at a relatively low height, radically increasing noise pollution, loss of sleep and other negatives.
As the Member for Mid Sussex, I have been concerned for some time about potential expansion at Gatwick airport, in particular bringing the emergency runway into commercial use. Does my hon. Friend agree that should the decision be approved, the problems he outlines will only be exacerbated?
I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. Indeed, there is a suspicion that part of the motive behind this is to enable an expansion, which has not been permitted yet.
In this new design, flights would be concentrated over a much narrower band of countryside. The introduction of satellite-based navigation, which is another part of the modernisation process, also has the effect of pushing flights along the same narrow route. GAL started out its review with hundreds of possible designs, but for the public consultation it has narrowed it down to just three. All three make that sharp turn to the south at 2k out. All three add millions to GAL’s potential income. All three create massive noise pollution for Rusper, Warnham and Slinfold. They are not three different options but one and the same.
Is it credible that by fluke all three have exactly the same financial benefit to GAL? It is no wonder that many residents have come to suspect that profit and share price is being put before people’s interests. The absence of an independent member in the design process leaves the outcome open to a perception of bias, at the very least. Perhaps the CAA has recognised this risk, because it proposes to set up a new UK-wide airspace change service that would serve to remedy the problem of
“scarce expertise in the industry”.
The hon. Member is making a very powerful point, and completely correctly. This is something that has been going on for many years. We have been speaking about the Noise Management Board at Gatwick for a very long time. It has completely failed to be anything other than a talking shop in order to placate Bo Redeborn’s complaints at the last review. What we are actually dealing with here is a snake’s wedding above our airspace. It is particularly bad over southern England, but the truth is that it extends all the way to Manchester. This is something I have been fighting for a number of years, so I certainly do not blame the current Minister.
Until the Civil Aviation Authority, NATS and the Department for Transport are willing to address this, we are simply not going to be able to progress. Is it not essential that we look at this in a proper review of the whole of the airspace across southern England and not just exert greater pressure on communities like Cowden in my constituency and no doubt others in the constituency of the hon. Member for Horsham? All we are doing is building a motorway in the sky above people’s homes but without the same protections people would get if a real motorway were to be built alongside them. There will be no compensation, planning or oversight. Is this not the real problem we are facing?
I thank the right hon. Member for his intervention. I am aware that he has been fighting this cause for a very long time. I certainly agree with his comments and the need for a truly national process on this.
The problem is identified by the CAA as a
“scarce expertise in the industry…leading to inconsistent standards and variable quality”
in airport change process submissions. Unfortunately, the Gatwick review will be completed before this new body is even established. Could we be overestimating the negative impacts of this new route? Are residents exaggerating the damage it might do to their wellbeing? We can confidently say that it is no exaggeration, because the same route has already been experimented with before. Back in 2014 a trial was run called ADNID, following more or less the same line. The impact was immediately disastrous, causing a storm of complaints—so much so that the CEO at the time said that the trial route would never be used again. Yet here we are, 10 years later, and ADNID mark II has arrived.
Although Gatwick claims that these proposals would remove traffic from the existing pathway population swathe, not a single population centre would actually benefit from the change. For the first time, the options being presented to the public consultation bring in thousands of residents who were not previously overflown, contradicting GAL’s own policy of deconfliction. The forceful objections raised in 2014 are being ignored.
Gatwick’s route selection cannot be justified on environmental grounds either. Airspace modernisation is designed to reduce carbon emissions from air travel through more efficient flying. Although that may be achieved as a whole in the FASI-S project, the reduction in emissions is largely achieved by the changes made above 7,000 feet. The emissions and their impact under 7,000 feet are simply not being analysed and nor are the potential harms, which are not even mentioned in stage two of GAL’s FASI-S consultation.
The consultation process as a whole lacks transparency. There are many questions that I believe the public need answers to. No defined methodology for shortlisting flightpath options has been put forward for public consultation. Why is GAL allowed to pick and choose proposed flightpaths without independent review or scrutiny? As stated, the options show little or no variation. It is not three choices—
I am well aware of many of the points the hon. Member is making. In fact, back in 2014 I was on Gatwick’s consultative forum as a community representative and I was well aware then of the impact that the trial route had, in terms of concentrated noise in some areas and the consequent storm of community feeling. However, I suppose that one of the key problems will ultimately be that if we are trying to rationalise airspace with a complex set of interconnecting airports, there will only be a finite number of routes that can reasonably be taken in order for that rationalisation to happen.
Beyond that point, my broader concern is that in enabling a far more efficient set of flightpaths, ultimately what we are doing is enabling far greater capacity in terms of flights in our region. As I am sure both the hon. Member and the hon. Member for Mid Sussex (Alison Bennett) will agree, north Sussex’s infrastructure is already completely overloaded from dealing with the existing levels of demand from the airport and the associated industries. Any growth in capacity will require someone—either the airport or the Government—to step in and significantly invest in our communities to make sure that they do not suffer the ill effects of far greater levels of aviation in our region.
I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. Indeed, part of the problem is that this process is in isolation from 100 other issues; infrastructure is very much one of them, because, as he says, it is already sadly lacking.
As I was saying, the options show little to no variation from each other. It is not three choices; it is one choice repeated three times. Without sight of a genuine alternative that builds on the structure already in place—using routes that already bear traffic—how can the public understand the trade-offs of different pathways? It is worth noting that Heathrow has three clearly varying pathways, which differ in direction and geometric shape from each other, for the public to consider.
If the Gatwick consultation is sound, why has the CAA launched a separate consultation about setting up a national body for the review? That implies that the current model of individual airports designing individual strategies is not working. Is the current governing policy from the CAA, which is known as CAP1616, up to date? Does it consider modernisation of satellite technology and the impact that technology is having on flight concentration? If not, the modernisation of Gatwick could have serious environmental and health consequences for communities such as mine in Horsham.
Why does GAL seem to be rushing for this consultation to be implemented in 2027 when full technical technological roll-out cannot be achieved by 2030 at the earliest, or by 2035 according to other estimates? Why have alternative routes been dismissed on the basis that they conflicted, due to inter-airport conflict, despite there being a pre-agreed process to deal with that by using the Airspace Change Organising Group at a later date? That is not a basis on which to dismiss alternative options.
Airport modernisation is a nationally important ambition: I certainly do not dispute that. Opportunities to make large-scale, comprehensive changes to the entire national network come only once in a lifetime. Therefore, it is absolutely essential that we carry out the process using the most up-to-date guiding principles, with high levels of scrutiny and consultations that provide residents with a real choice. Without doing so, how will we obtain an outcome that is balanced and fair to both airports and communities?
Retaining the southerly route would make negligible difference to carbon emissions or efficiency, but the benefits to residents would be enormous. Public wellbeing is supposed to be a key part of this process, but it seems that we are sacrificing those three villages for no good reason. I therefore ask that the process be reconsidered such that all the communities around Gatwick and the other 19 airports can be presented with a credible and rational set of alternatives. That process must account for the findings of the recently published “Fair and Equitable Distribution Interim Report”, which was financed by the CAA specifically for that purpose. If we carry on as we are and take no action, we risk that important review being vulnerable to unwanted outcomes and a conflict of interest. I urge the Minister to consider the process again and ensure an outcome that will be accepted as legitimate by the public as a whole.
It is always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I congratulate the hon. Member for Horsham (John Milne) on securing this timely and important debate.
The UK’s airspace is some of the most complex in the world, yet there has been little change to its overall structure since the 1950s. If a pilot from that time came back to the future in a TARDIS, he would be flying the same pathways as he did in the 1950s. The system was designed closer to the time Yuri Gagarin was in space than to today.
Modernising our airspace can deliver quicker, quieter and cleaner journeys. Airspace modernisation will use new technologies to create direct routes and faster climbs, and will reduce the need for holding stacks. It will mean that the aviation industry can grow safely and that customers will experience more reliable services, which are particularly needed at Gatwick. Importantly, there will be opportunities to reduce noise and carbon emissions.
In my constituency of Tunbridge Wells there is only one noise monitor, in the village of Rusthall. Although we are all in favour of airspace modernisation—the Minister makes some great points about it—how can we know that it will not merely move the noise problem around, or even make it worse? Will the Government commit to expanding the number of noise monitors in affected communities, such as mine in Tunbridge Wells, before they implement the proposal?
I gently remind the hon. Member that I grew up under the flight path at Manchester airport, so I remember the BAC One-Elevens, the Tridents and the Concordes. I even saw the space shuttle do a low pass on a jumbo jet. Through modern technology, noise envelopes are reducing considerably.
The hon. Member for Horsham talked about carbon; who knew that if we actually flew our planes in straight lines, we would reduce the carbon emissions from our aviation sector by up to about 10%? That would benefit not just every community but the planet too.
The first step in modernising Gatwick’s airspace affects routes heading south to the airport, as the hon. Member for Horsham said, which have minimal interactions with other airports. To achieve those changes, Gatwick is following the Civil Aviation Authority’s CAP 1616 process, as he mentioned. The process was revised earlier this year to make it fairer and more transparent and to provide an opportunity for comprehensive engagement with local communities and stakeholders who may be affected by airspace changes. It is worth pointing out that that was a key manifesto commitment of ours at the general election. That was right because, given the implications of airspace changes for local communities and the environment, it is necessary that they are subject to robust and transparent procedures.
One of the most complex and pressing aspects of airspace modernisation is the need to redesign the outdated flightpaths into and from our airports, such as those at Gatwick. Gatwick airport participates in a fundamental component of the Department’s airspace modernisation programme: the future airspace strategy implementation programme. FASI is a UK-wide upgrade of terminal airspace, involving 20 airports working in collaboration with the Airspace Change Organising Group and NATS to co-ordinate a more efficient airspace system.
I appreciate the tone with which the Minister is approaching this issue, which he knows has been a matter of great frustration for the past few years that I have been in Parliament. The key to the FASI programme is surely making the efficiency work. I will not comment on the Minister’s understanding of aerodynamics, given his comment about the TARDIS flying, which is a slightly different question—
Exactly—it is not quite aerodynamics, and not exactly a flight route.
But this debate does involve flight routes, and there is extra pressure on communities. The Department’s policy, certainly until now—the Minister may have changed it—was to reduce the number of people significantly affected by aircraft noise. Yet going from a flight every 20 minutes to a flight every 100 seconds will apply enormous pressure in a community like Cowden, right next to where I live in west Kent. That is clearly a major change.
I appreciate that noise management has changed in the years since the Minister was growing up near Manchester airport, and I appreciate his points about efficiency—we all welcome efficiency in aircraft routes and, I hope, the greater profit for aircraft users and the resultant cheaper tickets—but will he also recognise that that efficiency needs to be shared with compensation on the ground? If we were to build a motorway next to somebody’s house, we would compensate them, or it would at least require various permissions. This should be no different. It is a motorway in the air.
Gatwick did pass stage 2 of the CAA’s CAP 1616 process. That is a transparent process, and it is fully consulted on at stage 3. The right hon. Member mentions noise in particular, which I know is a sensitive issue. I understand how the changes to flight paths as part of the airspace modernisation process can also change how noise is distributed. As ever, we need to strike a fair balance between the impact of aviation on the local environment and communities, and the economic benefits that Gatwick brings to its local community, as well as its national importance. With airspace modernisation and performance-enhancing beacons, we can be more flexible.
As Gatwick has more than 50,000 movements a year, it is obliged under the environmental noise regulations to produce noise action plans, which act as a driver for the management of aircraft noise and for mitigation around airports. Gatwick’s current noise plan sets out its ambition for managing noise between 2024 and 2028; I encourage all Members to get involved in that.
For several decades, the Government have set out noise controls, including restrictions on night operations at Gatwick airport. The controls reflect the need to balance the impact on communities with the benefits to the economy. I am pleased to announce that yesterday the Government published their decision to maintain the current restrictions at Gatwick, Heathrow and Stansted until 2028. Additionally, airspace modernisation will allow the introduction of new technology, such as performance-based navigation, which will enhance the accuracy of where aircraft fly and provide better opportunities to provide respite for noise-sensitive areas.
One of the main objectives of our airspace modernisation strategy is environmental sustainability. This key principle is applied throughout all modernisation activities and takes into account the interest of all affected stakeholders. The UK has committed to an ambitious target to reach net zero by 2050. We were the first major world economy to enact such a law. We continue to work together with industry to consider the best ways to support the aviation industry to de-carbonise, including through the jet zero taskforce. Airspace modernisation can help us to reach our target by reducing delays and allowing aircraft to fly in more direct routes. That should result in far less fuel burn, and therefore reduce our carbon omissions and potentially the noise impact of flights.
To improve confidence in the delivery of airspace modernisation across the south-east region, my Department and the CAA have launched a consultation on our proposals for a new UK airspace design service. The proposals set out our ambitions to create a single guiding mind responsible for the holistic design of airspace change, to the benefit of all who use our airspace and are affected. I encourage Members to get behind this change. The hon. Member for Horsham is right that there is not a vast wave of expertise in this area in our nation. Our ambition is to bring together the best minds to improve airspace across the whole UK.
I recognise that the Minister has not finished, but I am concerned that his points have, so far, been general. I wholly support the overall ambitions to reduce carbon emissions—I have absolutely no problem with that—but there are two issues. First, the consultation is not a genuine one because there is no real choice. Secondly, we are moving away from a route that is already used and is perfectly reasonable to one with significant resident impacts. I am concerned that the Minister has not addressed those two key issues.
As I have already stated, there is full public consultation at stage 3, and the hon. Member and his constituents will have the right to fully engage in that. I do encourage people to engage in this issue, because we have to modernise our airspace. It will take some time, a lot of energy and a lot of expertise, but it is the right thing to do by our nation.
To conclude, airspace modernisation is vital to unlocking the benefits of a growing UK aviation sector. Without modernising the airspace, we cannot realise the benefits to passengers, communities, operators and the economy. This must be achieved in a sustainable way that minimises the impact on local communities while balancing the strategic benefits that Gatwick airport can bring to the economy.
I thank all Members—the right hon. Member for Tonbridge (Tom Tugendhat), the hon. Members for Tunbridge Wells (Mike Martin) and for Mid Sussex (Alison Bennett), and my hon. Friend the Member for Crawley (Peter Lamb)—for participating, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Horsham on securing this important debate.
Question put and agreed to.
(1 week, 1 day ago)
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I beg to move,
That this House has considered the future funding of the BBC
It is a real pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell, and to debate a subject that I seem to have spent a large part of my parliamentary career discussing, but which has become extremely appropriate to examine once again today. The Minister, who I have spent a lot of time debating over the last few years, last night replied to an Adjournment debate touching on the overall process under which the BBC charter will be renewed, but as she said last night—and she is completely right—the funding of the BBC is a central part of the charter renewal process, and what the BBC does will to some extent be affected by the money available to it and vice versa. I do think it is right that we look at the matter.
I had responsibility less than 10 years ago for drawing up the charter under which the BBC currently operates. That was in 2015-16—only seven or eight years ago—but the changes that have taken place in the broadcasting landscape since are huge and continue to accelerate. At the time of the last charter, streaming did exist, but it was only a couple of years after Netflix had launched in this country, and there were still only one or two other streamers available. Since then, we have seen an explosion, with an enormous number of different streaming platforms that are investing heavily in extremely good content. Most people now enjoy streamed services as well as traditional broadcast, and subscribe, quite often, to several streamers.
Despite the huge range of content that is now available, in my view—and I think the Government take the same view—public service broadcasting is still absolutely necessary, particularly in the core public service content areas of news and current affairs, which are not really provided by the streaming services. I continue to believe that there is a very important role for the BBC in this country’s broadcasting landscape, but my concern is that the traditional method by which the BBC is funded—through the licence fee—is going to become steadily harder to sustain.
Even seven or eight years ago, we saw the beginning of the challenges. At that time, at the request of the BBC, we closed the iPlayer loophole, by which people were viewing BBC content on the iPlayer but not paying the licence fee. We said then, and it remains the case now, that if people watch live television in any form and if they use the iPlayer, they are required to have a TV licence. Other drivers have increased revenue for the BBC over the years, like the growth of single-parent households and immigration levels, meaning that more licences have been issued—but that trend has now reversed, despite the closing of the loophole; each year, fewer people are buying a television licence. In the course of the last year, the number of licences held has fallen by 500,000, and that movement is likely to continue.
If we look at the public’s viewing behaviour, we find that less and less traditional broadcast television is being watched, particularly by young people. Most 16 to 24-year-olds now do not watch any live broadcasts each week—10 years ago, 80% did—and broadcast channels take up only 57% of all viewing, against TikTok, YouTube and all the other streaming services. People are genuinely saying, “We choose to subscribe and pay for Netflix, Amazon, Discovery, Apple and all the other streamers. We don’t see why, on top of that, we should have to pay for a TV licence when we don’t watch the BBC.”
The TV licence does not just cover the BBC; it covers all live television viewing. Nevertheless, a lot of people can watch on catch-up the programmes that are available on the other public service channels. Genuinely, people are not required under the law to have a TV licence, and more and more are choosing not to have one. That will pose an increasing problem for the BBC.
We have seen complaints from the BBC about the fact that the revenue available to it has been cut in recent years—like every other public service, it has been required to find efficiencies—but the director general has talked about the crisis that has been created by the lack of money and his inability to invest to compete. That situation is not likely to get any better if we continue with the licence fee; if anything, it will become steadily worse.
I remember chairing a Select Committee—I think it was about 15 years ago—that looked at the funding of the BBC and the licence fee. At the time, we concluded that although the licence fee had many drawbacks, it was still probably the best available option. It is a regressive tax, it is criminally enforced and it is the case that among the people convicted of failing to pay, a large proportion are women. Those are all drawbacks of the licence fee, but at that time the alternatives did not seem possible. Certainly, advertising is not likely to be beneficial to the BBC or to the whole commercial television sector; there is not that much advertising revenue to go round, and if there were advertising on the BBC, it would result in a reduction for everybody else.
There is an alternative option. A lot of people have said, “Why can’t the BBC charge a subscription, so people can choose whether or not to pay it?” The reason is simple. At the moment, most people still access the BBC and other traditional broadcasters through digital terrestrial television, or Freeview, and there is no mechanism for conditional access—in other words, the choice to receive a particular channel—with Freeview. At the launch of Freeview, the BBC was very keen that that should be the case, because it was worried about subscription, but it means that while a significant proportion of the population continue to rely on Freeview, we cannot move to subscription. But that will change.
Both the last Government and this Government have said that Freeview will be maintained until 2034; it may well be that we need to maintain it for a bit longer. However, the transition to IPTV or internet protocol television—the provision of television over the internet—will steadily increase, and if people have smart TVs, which allow them to choose whether to subscribe to the streamers, it means they could also have the choice of whether to subscribe to the BBC. I think that that option is likely to become more attractive, although it will only really become viable when we reach the point where almost the entire population have IPTV, but for the reasons I have set out, it is important that we start to talk about it now.
The last Government had future funding of the BBC panel, which this Government have not continued. On the other hand, I know that the Minister has set up a future of TV distribution panel, which does not look vastly different. Anyway, I am glad that the Government continue to look at the issue, which is why I think this is the right time to have this debate.
There are certain things that will never be possible to have on a subscription basis, including BBC Radio—I do not think there is any way in which there can be conditional access on radio—and the World Service. I sit on the Foreign Affairs Committee and we are currently examining the World Service, which is of huge benefit to this country. It could not be provided on a subscription basis, as the people it is aimed at are certainly not in a position to pay. The World Service also makes a very valuable contribution to the reputation of the UK and to our soft power, and the BBC has said that it should be funded by the Foreign Office and not by the licence fee. That argument is quite attractive, although I recognise that it would be a big challenge for the Government to take on. The Minister gave evidence on the subject yesterday and it remains an issue that we will want to debate.
With radio, it would be possible to extend advertising, but, as with any advertising on BBC TV, doing so would damage commercial radio. I am also slightly worried about the extent to which advertising is creeping in at the margin, with the BBC allowing advertising through podcast, which is increasingly the way in which people are accessing audio content.
My right hon. Friend will recognise, as I do, that one big challenge in relation to the BBC is that many of those who are most opposed to its further commercialisation are the other public service broadcasters, who worry about disruption to their own revenue streams, particularly in relation to advertising. That is why it is tricky to come up with an alternative to the licence fee.
My hon. Friend is completely right. She and I both had the pleasure of serving as Minister; I was delighted to stand in for her while she was on maternity leave, so we have both looked at the issue for some time. We have to look at the overall television landscape. If we allow advertising, or encourage the BBC to compete, it is likely to have an impact on the commercial sector, which completely depends on advertising revenue. Our traditional advertising-funded PSBs—ITV, Channel 4, Channel 5—are already finding it difficult competing in a world with well-resourced streamers, and this would make it worse.
One of the weaknesses of the streaming companies is regional and national news coverage and programming. For BBC Scotland, at the moment 99% of the licence fee paid by Scots is invested in Scotland. That is a really important and positive aspect of the current licence fee arrangements that must be protected as we move forward.
I have sympathy with the hon. Gentleman. It is the case that the BBC provides more of the core public service content than the other PSBs—the others do, but not to the same extent. National and regional coverage of the type he has described is absolutely a core part of that. I think that needs to continue, and if the licence fee is not able to fund it, there is a case for it moving across to general taxation. There is a world in which the core PSB content is funded out of taxation, and then people could choose to subscribe to the content that is more entertainment based—a subscription model—but it is too early to say.
These are the kinds of discussions that are fundamental to the next charter. I am delighted that the Government are now beginning to consider that. My purpose today is to flag up the extent to which the existing model cannot be sustained, and to begin having the debate.
Following the recent developments in Syria, I understand that the BBC World Service will offer enhanced services to audiences across Syria on broadcast medium wave and FM. Would the right hon. Member congratulate the World Service on stepping in to respond to an emergency situation with the utmost professionalism? Does that not underline his point as to why it should be funded from the Foreign Office?
I agree. Yesterday, the Culture, Media and Sport Committee took evidence from the director general and the deputy director for news, Jonathan Munro, on this subject. He talked about the way the World Service provides its core language services and can also provide additional coverage quickly. Syria is a good example of where it is doing that. That is an extremely important role for the BBC, and one that I do not think could be funded in any way other than through public money. The BBC make a good case as to why the licence fee may no longer be appropriate, which we also need to consider.
There are a large number of Members present in the Chamber, so I do not want to take up any more time. I hope that I have raised one or two questions that we will need to debate thoroughly over the course of the couple of years that lie ahead for the charter renewal.
I remind Members that they should bob if they wish to be called. I do not intend to set a time limit, but if Members could stick to five or six minutes, everybody should get to speak.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. I refer colleagues to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests; I am the chair of the BBC all-party parliamentary group, a recipient of hospitality and a former employee of Prospect and Bectu unions, which represent workers at the BBC.
I thank the right hon. Member for Maldon (Sir John Whittingdale) for securing this debate on such an important issue, not only for the BBC as an organisation, but for all of us who benefit from its mission to inform, educate and entertain. When we discuss the future funding of the BBC, we must understand the need to safeguard its unique role with a funding model that enables it to continue to be independent and universal and to provide the unique content that its audience expects. With BBC iPlayer having been the fastest-growing streaming service this year and with 95% of UK adults using BBC services every month—whether that is its nine TV channels, its 16 radio stations, its streaming apps or the World Service —we must recognise that the demand for the BBC’s services and content reflects what a vital source of information and entertainment it is for our constituents and for people accessing World Service content around the world.
It is also vital to our democracy. In a landscape of bias, spin, the common approach of “Don’t let facts get in the way of a good story” and the rise of unverified content and disinformation masquerading as news on social media, the BBC’s championing of impartial and fearless reporting at home and abroad and its operating without pandering to political or commercial interests is becoming more vital, not less. I am sure that colleagues of all political persuasions agree with that.
The financial challenges for the BBC are stark; when we debate future funding, we must recognise that. It has seen a 30% real-terms decrease in funding for UK services in the past decade, exacerbated by previous decisions around the licence fee and, of course, the hyperinflation in the film and TV industries in recent years. It has also taken on additional financial responsibilities in the past decade, including licences for the over-75s on pension credit. Although I know that the BBC welcomes the new Government’s funding uplift for the World Service in our recent Budget, two thirds of its funding still comes from the licence fee. I know that the licence fee will be in place until at least 2027-28, but given the challenges that have been outlined, this debate on its future funding is timely.
Many funding models have been proposed, but many alternatives to the licence fee would simply not secure the future of our world-leading public service broadcaster and would threaten its ability to create uniquely British content and tell stories, both fictional and real, from across the UK. An advertising model, for example, would not be right for the BBC: it would introduce commercial interests into programming decisions and would force the BBC to compete with other public service broadcasters and commercial radio and TV over ever-dwindling advertising revenue, as the right hon. Member for Maldon pointed out. I would be deeply concerned by the impact that that would have on the BBC’s ability to continue to invest in our world-leading creative industries and talent. It would undoubtedly leave the BBC and the rest of our broadcasting ecosystem worse off.
Similarly, a subscription model would not provide the universal public service broadcasting to which we and the BBC aspire. It would threaten regional programming and investment. It is unsurprising that the Government have committed to a sustainable public funding model for the BBC as part of the upcoming charter review to ensure that we continue to have a BBC that is impartial, universal and accessible, but it is important that we closely examine the licence fee model and consider reforms to ensure that its scope, progression and enforcement are fit for the times we find ourselves in.
We have something very special in the BBC. It has brought the nation together for more than a century for those enormous moments in our shared lives, from sporting triumph to the election drama that those of us in this Chamber all enjoyed this year, and from the latest adaptation of J. K. Rowling’s “Cormoran Strike” books to the upcoming “Gavin and Stacey” Christmas special, which I know will be on in my family’s house. It provides fearless news coverage in our neighbourhoods, from Westminster and abroad, and it invests in creative talent.
My area has excellent regional news coverage, including BBC Three Counties Radio and “Look East”. However, back in 2022, a decision was taken that has meant that my regional politics programme is now recorded more than 100 miles away from my constituency. Given that all news is local, would my hon. Friend care to comment on whether that is the right starting point for regional news coverage, or whether we might want to do something more local and perhaps better?
I agree that it is a shame that some regional political and news programming is being filmed further away than before. Of course, I am not able to answer directly for those decisions by the BBC, but the 30% funding decrease that I mentioned may explain the reasoning behind them. It is a shame that we find ourselves in this position; it underlines the importance of finding a funding settlement and model that will allow regional programming and truly local programming to be safeguarded as much as possible.
As I was saying, the BBC provides fearless coverage in our neighbourhoods—sometimes a little further away than previously—and in Westminster and abroad. It invests in creative talent and programming across every corner of our great country. That is something worth fighting for in a world of media fragmentation. I hope all colleagues will support my push for a future funding model that ensures that the BBC lasts for another century.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. I thank the right hon. Member for Maldon (Sir John Whittingdale) for securing this very important debate and for his thoughtful comments. I should make colleagues aware that I am a co-chair of the National Union of Journalists’ parliamentary group.
The BBC has been at the heart of the UK’s national life for over 100 years, and it is at the heart of my constituency of Salford. Its mission to inform, educate and entertain is underpinned by its funding model, which ensures that it is universal, independent and never at the whim of vested business interests or advertisers. It is there for the people of Britain, not for profit. It has a more important function than just entertaining us; it reaches out to every community in the UK and gives them a voice. It is an intrinsic part of political accountability, holding local and national politicians to account. It strives to provide content in the public interest, not just sensational headlines that offer the best clickbait. From educational resources produced by the BBC that are relied on in schools to fact-checking services that cut through misinformation, local radio and local democracy journalism, it is clear that the BBC’s impact on our communities is profound.
Does the hon. Lady agree that the BBC’s unique currency is trust, and that one of the challenges in recent years is that people have lost faith in the BBC as an organisation that produces impartial news? One challenge that I saw in the last Parliament was that the BBC was reducing local and regional journalism, even while protecting some very large salaries for its biggest stars. That is one of the reasons why people are losing faith that the BBC is investing in journalism in the way that it should and in the way that people expect from a public service broadcaster.
I very much agree with the hon. Lady about cuts to local journalism, because it is a fundamental part of holding politicians and local democratic organisations to account. It is incredibly worrying to see cuts to local services in print, television and radio; I hope the upcoming charter review will address and recognise that. I will come back to the theme of accountability and rebuilding public trust for those who may have lost an element of it.
It is also important to recognise the BBC’s impact on the rest of the world and how the world views the UK through its World Service provision, most importantly at a time of great turmoil in certain parts of the world. The BBC World Service has a history of responding to emergency situations globally. Most recently, in November, it launched an emergency radio service for Gaza, which remains on air. In May 2023, during the conflict in Sudan, BBC News Arabic began an emergency radio service. In February 2022 the BBC News Ukraine service extended TV bulletins, following the invasion of the country. BBC News has also responded to the events in Syria with special programming across the week.
Despite the crucial public interest role that the BBC plays, as we have heard, it has seen a 30% real-terms decrease in funding for UK public services in the last decade. Parts of the service have been at risk or have been cut completely, which puts the unique role of the BBC in jeopardy. Most recently, we have heard about the cutting of “HARDtalk” and local radio service provision, to name a few examples.
The forthcoming charter review process provides us with the opportunity to put the BBC on a stable and sustainable footing, recognising its vital role in our society and democracy, its significance as a major driver of the UK’s wider creative economy and its strategic value as a global asset. It is important that we discuss the importance of recognising the various available funding options beyond the licence fee. For example, the World Service is just one element of BBC provision that should be recognised on a department level, not just in terms of the licence fee.
There are ways we could improve the BBC too, particularly in how it engages with the public. The NUJ suggests that starting with genuine engagement and consultation with the public about what they value from their BBC will regain their input into its future funding and direction. It further suggests public and staff representation on the BBC board, improving diversity and reflecting the priorities of licence fee payers more fully. It calls for the reversal of initiatives that have diverted licence fee income away from core work, including the costs of free licences for the over-75s, which should be funded directly by the Government. It also calls for greater independence and the safeguarding of the BBC from perceived political interference, including by ensuring that the BBC boards and its chair are chosen by an arm’s length body.
It is also important to ensure that the BBC better reflects the community it serves, both in its content and in its staffing. It could do that by piloting innovative initiatives to improve local news provision in communities that represent news deserts or near news deserts; opening up access to journalism with targeted training programmes to increase opportunity, including apprenticeships for school leavers; and building and protecting the spectrum of news provision across linear and digital platforms, including through the proper resourcing of local radio news and local radio, ensuring a breadth of diverse content that prioritises quality.
I hope that the Minister will consider those points carefully and will continue to champion the BBC, both in Salford and across the UK. In an era of growing disinformation and political bias in the media sphere, fiercely protecting the values of public service broadcasting and its unique role in the provision of impartial, trustworthy news and journalism is crucial.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. I commend the right hon. Member for Maldon (Sir John Whittingdale) for securing this important debate. It was good to hear his support for public service broadcasting and his recognition that the licence fee is there not just for live television, but for many of the services that hon. Members have mentioned.
I will start by saying why I feel strongly that we need the BBC, and why it delivers such great value. It still does so many things that the proliferation of streaming platforms do not. From the perspective of UK cultural and economic benefit, the BBC provides a critical role in education, not just through children’s programming, but through ever-informative and breathtaking nature documentaries from David Attenborough and others. Even in this age of streaming, “Line of Duty” managed to secure 13 million viewers a night; many of us were gripped and looked forward to the next episode. The BBC has brought fantastic foreign-language content to BBC 4, including the iconic “The Killing”, which astonished people by hitting 1 million viewers a week as a subtitled programme. Those of us who were alive, albeit somewhat younger, in the 1990s could always look forward to the thrill of “Star Trek: The Next Generation” at 6 pm every Wednesday. For all those reasons, a KPMG report estimates that for every £1 of economic activity generated by the BBC, £2.63 of wider economic value is created.
The BBC is so much more than entertainment. Fact-based and impartial reporting, analysis and investigations are essential, particularly in this age of social media misinformation when we are all trapped in our thought bubbles. We need the forensic interviews on Radio 4’s “Today” programme, we desperately need the local political reporting and scrutiny of services such as BBC Oxford and BBC South, and we need the investigative journalism, domestic and international, that can be found across Radio 4. As the hon. Member for Leeds North East (Fabian Hamilton) said, the BBC World Service plays a key role in maintaining access to free and accurate sources of information in many repressive countries around the world or in countries facing humanitarian challenges, such as Syria, which he mentioned.
Of course, we should recognise that the BBC is not perfect. The salaries of top presenters can be very high indeed, and scandals and crises have not always been prevented or well managed. But what other organisation would create and broadcast a documentary that looks critically at its own failings and weaknesses, as “Days That Shook the BBC” with David Dimbleby did?
Value for money from current funding and potential future reforms are important, but 95% of adults still use the BBC at least once a month. The alternative funding models that have been explored to date would not necessarily create a fairer system without disadvantages, so it is important for the Government to be very clear about our desired outcomes from the BBC and public service broadcasting, and then to work out from that how we fund them. We should consider ways to spread the TV licence cost more equitably, taking people on low incomes into account.
We need the quality, independence and breadth of the BBC now more than ever. It is too important to risk losing through sub-optimal or over-complex funding routes. I am pleased to see that the Government are looking hard at how to sustain the BBC’s future.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. I thank the right hon. Member for Maldon (Sir John Whittingdale) for bringing this debate to the House. Today is 18 December, so this time next week, millions of people will be gathered around their television to watch Christmas day programming. It is one minute past 3, so—
Millions will be watching the King’s speech this time next week—on the BBC. People would not subscribe to the BBC on Christmas day to watch the King’s speech, but to watch programmes such as “Gavin and Stacey”, “EastEnders”, or “Doctor Who”. If they subscribed for only entertainment purposes, however, they would miss out on the cultural life of the country and on important issues that they should be exposed to and should consume.
A subscription service that unwittingly creates such a taxonomy of programming, and divides content between public sector broadcasting and entertainment, would fall foul of reducing the consumption of important content. The best way to ensure that the BBC continues to provide its services, therefore, is through the continuation and maintenance of the licence fee model, rather than general taxation for public sector broadcasting or subscription services for entertainment.
Would the hon. Gentleman accept that, whether or not he is a supporter of the licence fee, fewer people are choosing to pay it, so we have a problem that needs to be dealt with, regardless of one’s view on the licence fee and its future?
I thank the hon. Lady for the question. Fewer people are willing to pay it, but there is a way around that. The BBC can make efficiency savings that will help to rebuild trust in it. If its content can be improved or its reach can be extended, that will lead to a regaining of trust, which the hon. Lady mentioned earlier, and to more people supporting the BBC financially through the licence fee.
I want to come on to an issue that the BBC has struggled with in recent years: trust. BBC Verify is a new service to combat the disinformation that we are seeing online. BBC Verify can be improved, both in content and in tone, as I have raised directly with BBC executives. I have also raised the fact that it is not perfect, but it is a good start in combating the disinformation and misinformation that we see online. I hope that more effort can be put into improving Verify’s output in the months and years to come.
I turn to the importance of the World Service, which many Members have already discussed. I support the Government’s recent uplift in funding for the World Service, but I favour returning this funding to the Foreign Office to relieve financial pressures on the BBC’s domestic coverage, enable sustainability and stability in the long term, and help to support Britain’s soft-power role in an increasingly dangerous world.
The BBC’s cultural impact is crucial to supporting the creative economy in the UK. The BBC strives to represent and serve all communities across the UK, and invests over half its funding outside London. The UK creative sector is a continuously developing area. The BBC’s £5 billion investment each year supports a unique entertainment output and provides world-class exports for viewers abroad. I want the BBC to be able to invest more in its cultural output so that it can extend its provision in that area. For those reasons, it is incredibly important to maintain the BBC’s position at the top of the electronic programme guide, so that public service broadcasting continues and survives in years to come.
Finally, although the Government should monitor the BBC funding situation, the current system of charter renewal, whereby the BBC continually diverts attention and resources to the upcoming charter review, is less effective than it should be at supporting the BBC to deliver as a public service. I therefore ask that the system be changed to allow a permanent charter for the BBC, which the Government and the BBC, in concert, could alter as and when required, rather than after a mandated medium-term period.
I welcome the Government’s commitment to putting the BBC on a stable financial footing, and look forward to the Minister’s comments.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell—my first time serving under a fellow Scottish MP. I thank the right hon. Member for Maldon (Sir John Whittingdale) for securing this important debate and for his learned contribution. I declare an interest as an office bearer on the BBC all-party parliamentary group and as the husband of a journalist and former BBC employee.
I will not gild the lily of the contributions that so many Members have already made; I will give a personal view. Of course, nothing is free; when we consider the new model, we need to remember that, and my remarks will address that very point. More than most, perhaps, I—along with at least one other person in the room—know the value of the BBC, because I lived, studied and worked for 30 years in a society riven by conflict, division and hatred, at times verging on civil war. It was vital during those times to have faith in an organisation that provided reliable and trustworthy news and unbiased current affairs coverage. For the most part, the BBC fulfilled that function, in both its television and its radio coverage, and for that I pay tribute to its courageous and award-winning broadcast journalism. In an ever more divided society, the need for this role is all the greater.
Throughout my life, I have been a fan of much of the BBC’s output, and now, instead of being simply a viewer or listener, I occasionally find myself, as an MP, in the position of a contributor. I place on record my admiration for the work that it does, often in challenging circumstances and environments. I believe that it continues to be faithful to its commitment to inform, educate and entertain. It continues to enjoy a high level of trust and confidence, not only in these islands but across the world.
Alas, there are also challenges. There are too many to list in one speech, but I want to put down a few markers, as each of them relates to future consideration of the licence fee system and charter renewal. First, especially in Scotland but perhaps further afield, as the hon. Member for Hornchurch and Upminster (Julia Lopez) already referred to, there is a widespread and growing perception that editorial policy is not always fair or impartial. For example, on too many occasions, audience members in political debates are not who they purport to be—that is, ordinary members of the public.
On other occasions, contributors’ political perspectives are not properly introduced. Recently, for example, a so-called independent commentator turned out to be a fully paid-up member of a political party. Nor do those failings always result in public remedy or apology. As Elton John famously said,
“Sorry seems to be the hardest word”.
That is a problem for programme editors, not necessarily presenters, but it is a vital component in retaining the trust and confidence that I spoke of. It is not good enough to wring hands and say that everyone complains equally. I do not believe that is true.
Secondly, in what is obviously a personal view, I do not think that it is only politicians who should not be double-jobbing; that should extend to the so-called talent within the BBC. Too many times, we see high-profile individuals turning up as hosts on a wide variety of programmes, with their enormous salaries offered as justification for that triple or quadruple job-holding. The BBC should recognise its responsibility to bring forward up and coming journalistic and other qualified talent from a wide range of local broadcasters, whose careers are currently being effectively blocked or blighted as a result.
A final marker relates to the growing number of instances of unacceptable or illegal behaviour—often sexual harassment, or worse, of female colleagues or guests—by BBC employees or agents working on the BBC’s behalf through subcontractors. I spoke about that recently on a BBC programme. It is not good enough to divert responsibility to external production companies. The BBC needs to own that and to commit to an urgent internal review of its policies and a renewed training programme, especially for the so-called talent, where the problem often lies and where managers have been reluctant to act. That is a cultural problem that must be addressed at every level. I personally wish to see a commitment to a simple “no training, no screen time” approach.
In conclusion, I look forward to an informed debate on the licence fee system, including a deep dive into potential alternatives to the licence fee, such as opt-out advertising models, as we already see in the marketplace; a pay-per-view system; and certainly a funding model that provides a much more socially just system, in which the vulnerable, the elderly and those in poverty pay much less than the current licence fee. This is a changing world and the BBC must change with it.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. I, too, would like to speak up for the BBC World Service and the brilliant people who work there.
The World Service describes itself as the world’s radio station. That is right: we are lucky to have it and must do whatever we can to support it. It offers 42 language services and is a beacon for democracy around the world. We know the truth when we hear it from the BBC. In a world of endless rolling information and disinformation, it is surely significant that the Arabic service alone saw a 9% audience growth to 35 million a week just last year. There are places in the world, especially where internet connections are restricted and local journalists are fearful, where conventional radio remains crucial. Abuse and state malfunction are called out, and the powerful are held to account. There are 318 million listeners every week.
In 2022, the World Service announced 382 job losses and the complete loss of the Persian radio broadcast, which was so important in its coverage of the protests against the Government in Tehran. In Lebanon, Russian state-backed media are now using the frequency suspended by BBC Arabic. There is news and there is fake news, as we have all learned. While we debate the funding of the BBC, let us therefore remember the World Service, which Kofi Annan described as
“Britain’s greatest gift to the world”.
Presently, about three quarters of World Service funding comes from the licence fee and about one quarter—about £100 million—comes from the Foreign Office. Previously in this Parliament, I said that amount was about the same as an F-35 jet, and we have 75 or so of those. As I said then, I ask whether some of us might agree that the vital soft power of the World Service is equivalent to at least one of our jets.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. I thank the right hon. Member for Maldon (Sir John Whittingdale) for setting the scene so well. I want to make some positive points, and then I will outline what some of my constituents are telling me in relation to bias, because I want to have those comments on the record.
First, as the hon. Member for Southport (Patrick Hurley) said, this time next week the King’s speech will just be over. The nation will sit and watch that, because it is one of the good things that the BBC does, and it does it well. I am also a fan—my age gives it away—of the two Ronnies and of Morecambe and Wise. What humour—old-fashioned humour, by the way, but the kind that I was brought up with. I could tell some of their stories; I will not, because we would be here all day telling jokes, but their humour is incredible. I also endorse the excellent World Service, and agree that it needs to be upgraded and enhanced.
I wish to shine a light on the elephant in the room. The BBC has long prided itself as a national broadcaster, funded by the public and mandated to serve the public interest, yet my constituents tell me that the BBC is biased. Time and again, we see a pattern of behaviour that alienates a significant portion of that very public. The BBC is no longer viewed as the impartial institution it once claimed to be. I will give three or four examples just to have them on the record. They have been proven; I am not making them up—I do not do that sort of thing.
The BBC has adopted a tone and an editorial stance that all too often align with a narrow view. Whether or not Members are in favour of Brexit, let us look at it as an example. Many of us in the House and across the country will remember that the BBC approached Brexit not with curiosity or indeed neutrality, as the public rightly deserved, but with scepticism and outright hostility. It was not reporting the news; it was trying to shape the news.
The same bias has extended to issues affecting Northern Ireland. The BBC cannot even name our country correctly, referring to its correspondent as the “Ireland correspondent”. The hon. Member for Aberdeenshire North and Moray East (Seamus Logan) will know how absurd and wrong that is, because it is the Northern Ireland correspondent. Those who understand the constitution of Northern Ireland will understand that it is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, yet the BBC cannot get it right. If Welsh reporters can be “Welsh correspondent” and Scottish reporters can be “Scottish correspondent”, Northern Ireland deserves no less.
Bias is not merely a matter of perception; it has tangible consequences. Public trust in the BBC has eroded, and I have to say that it is no longer the broadcaster it was once heralded to be. As Government Members will know, my politics lies to the left—a fair bit to the left, I suspect—but that does not take away from where I am. The hon. Member for Clacton (Nigel Farage) faced a hostile audience on “Question Time” and Dame Andrea Jenkyns, a former Conservative MP, was booed before she had even opened her mouth on “Have I Got News for You”. My goodness. That is not organic debate; it is bias in practice.
I will echo something the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire North and Moray East referred to. The BBC selects its audiences, sets the tone and consistently marginalises voices on the right of politics. I am not on the right of politics—I never will be—but I make that point to have it on the record for those who have a different opinion. I respect other people’s opinions, by the way, even though I may not agree with them, because that is the person I am. I hope others are the same.
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this gets to the nub of the challenge? The BBC has a unique social contract with the public. It has the licence fee because people trust it to produce high-quality, impartial, trusted content. That is precisely the reason we have the BBC. If there is a sense from the public that that trust is being lost, that is a fundamental challenge to the BBC’s future. With Russia and China putting ever more money into their own state broadcasters, this represents a much wider challenge than just one for us here in the UK.
The hon. Lady is absolutely right. She has highlighted an issue that I wished to highlight too, but she did so better than I could, and I look forward to the Minister’s response. I should have welcomed the Minister to her place, by the way. She responded to her first Adjournment debate last night and did extremely well, and I know that she will be exceptionally good when it comes to answering all the questions that we pose today.
The BBC’s funding model must also be examined. The licence fee is compulsory, paid for by households across the United Kingdom regardless of whether they feel the BBC reflects their values or serves their interests. It is not a secret that I am an Ulster Scot. I am very proud of my history and the fact that my ancestors came from the lowlands of Scotland to Northern Ireland. When I look around this room, I look upon the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire North and Moray East as my Gaelic brother, and there are probably others across the Chamber who are similar; if we go back far enough in our history, we will find out. Ulster Scots heritage programmes risk being squeezed out of the BBC’s cultural programming. I think that is disgraceful. The BBC should focus on delivering programming that matters to all parts of the United Kingdom. Instead, we see money poured into political agendas and overpaid presenters, while those cherished culturally significant programmes receive less attention.
I have one last one example, Mr Mundell: the BBC’s clear bias in its coverage of Israel and Hamas. My goodness—cast your mind back to all that. It is no secret that I am pro-Israel, but I believe in decency and justice for everyone in the middle east. The BBC refuses to describe Hamas as a terrorist organisation. They are murderers, rapists and baby killers. That is who they are—that is the Hamas that we know—yet the BBC could not bring itself to call them what they were: terrorists. That undermines the BBC’s credibility as a news source. What message does that send to the victims of terrorism?
I thank the right hon. Member for Maldon (Sir John Whittingdale) for securing the debate. I refer to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests as someone who was supported by the Musicians’ Union, and I am the son of a videotape editor for the BBC, so I spent much of my childhood on the cutting room floor of Pebble Mill in the west midlands.
We hear about bias from all political parties and all sides. I heard from my Liberal Democrat colleagues earlier today about their frustration that the leader of the Reform party has appeared on the BBC far more times than any Liberal Democrats have. I heard the concern about trust expressed by the hon. Member for Hornchurch and Upminster (Julia Lopez), a former Minister, but several high-profile leaders of the BBC are former Conservative members or advisers. Many people who worked for the BBC are now prominent Conservatives on my local council.
We are talking about the funding of the BBC. We will all be unhappy with its output at some stage, yet the public still put it higher than most news outlets and other broadcasters. On the issue of funding the organisation, which is still one of the best in the world, does the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) agree that if we put a subscription process in place, not everybody would take it up, which would drive up the subscription fee, and then the BBC would have an even bigger funding problem?
I thank the hon. Member for that. He is right to put forward a point of view. I did not speak on behalf of the Reform party, because it is not my party. The point I was making is that if someone is derided on TV because they happen to represent a political view, that is wrong.
I mentioned Israel and Hamas. That is a supreme example of where the BBC’s bias carried over in such a way that it could not even name what Hamas were: terrorists and murderers. They are the people that hide behind women’s skirts and children whenever they carry out their atrocities. I expect the BBC to present the news in the way that it is.
The question is: how do we justify the licence fee? The BBC must uphold its obligation to impartiality, fairness and transparency. Some would say that it has a left-wing bias. A compulsory licence fee cannot be justified if a large section of the public feels misrepresented, ignored or, worse, derided.
We must demand that the BBC prioritises voices and programming that matter to all parts of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland—the BBC does not know where Northern Ireland is. That means that Ulster Scots programming must be given the platform it deserves, and that coverage of Northern Ireland must reflect the reality of our place within this great United Kingdom, which I am proud to be a member of—I say that all the time. The BBC has faced calls for its defunding. It can either reclaim its role as a trusted, impartial broadcaster that unites the nation, or it can continue down its current path, alienating viewers and losing its purpose. The public and Parliament have noticed a bias, and the BBC must acknowledge that and act to restore trust.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Maldon (Sir John Whittingdale) for the opportunity to discuss the future funding of one of our nation’s most cherished institutions. The BBC has been at the heart of our national life for more than 100 years. It embodies a mission that is simple yet profoundly important: to inform, educate and entertain. The BBC is not just another broadcaster; it plays a vital role in our cultural life and our national identity. It is universal, independent and unparalleled in its reach and influence, and it remains the most trusted broadcaster in the world.
From BBC Bitesize, which has educated millions of children, to the drama, music and comedy that enrich our lives, the BBC has no equal. Unlike global streaming services, which are motivated by profit and primarily serve international markets, the BBC exists to benefit the UK public. Public service broadcasting ensures that content is produced for everyone, regardless of wealth or geography. It brings us together, whether to watch the coronation, follow the Olympics, enjoy the sounds of Glastonbury or tune in to local radio to hear about issues in our communities.
A Netflix-style subscription model would be divisive and exclusionary. It would force the BBC to focus on content that attracts paying subscribers, sidelining the universal services that make it so valuable. The BBC’s services serve all audiences, not just those who can afford to pay. A subscription model would drive up costs for consumers and reduce the money available for investment in content.
The notion that the BBC’s entertainment content should be put behind a paywall is misguided. For many households, including the digitally excluded, that would make BBC services inaccessible. It would also result in the loss of free access to well-loved shows such as “Strictly Come Dancing”, “Match of the Day”, “The Traitors” and world-renowned drama. The proposal also ignores the reality of subscription-based financial models. Since its launch in the UK in 2012, when it charged £5.99 per month, Netflix’s standard plan has increased to £10.99 month, and its premium plan to £17.99—increases of 83% and 200% respectively. Consider the impact on a young person from a low-income household who might discover a passion for science through a BBC documentary, or be inspired to pursue their dreams by a BBC film. Those transformative experiences would be lost if access were restricted to only those who could afford to pay.
An advertising-funded BBC would be equally damaging. It would siphon advertising revenue away from commercial broadcasters, weakening the entire UK media ecosystem. Worse still, it would compromise the BBC’s independence by exposing it to commercial pressures. That would push the BBC to prioritise more generic, mass-appeal programming over distinctive, high-quality British productions. It would also undermine the BBC’s ability to deliver the rich, global and multicultural programming that has become its hallmark.
The BBC’s current funding model guarantees universality and independence. For just over £3 a week, households gain access to a treasure trove of content, including nine TV channels, 39 local radio stations, and online services such as the BBC iPlayer and BBC Sounds, yet the BBC has faced a 30% real-terms funding cut over the past decade, forcing tough decisions and service reductions. We cannot continue with perpetual uncertainty about the status of the BBC. The BBC’s current charter ensures the licence fee model until at least 2027, but beyond that we must commit to a funding model that is sustainable, fair and fit for the future.
Part of that future must include stronger support for the BBC World Service. This unparalleled institution is not only a vital source of impartial news for 450 million people globally, but a key pillar of the UK’s soft power. Whether it is exposing corruption, raising awareness of public health challenges or championing education and human rights, the BBC World Service not only projects British values but does real good in the world. However, recent funding cuts forced the closure of language services. This is unacceptable. We must restore full funding to the World Service through the Foreign Office budget to allow it to continue its invaluable work.
The BBC is also a driver of the UK’s creative economy, contributing nearly £5 billion annually. It commissions more independent productions than any other broadcaster, invests in research and development, and supports apprenticeships and training. At its heart, the BBC’s mission is to act in the public interest, serving all audiences through the provision of impartial, high-quality and distinctive output. In a media landscape dominated by billionaires seeking to engineer narratives that align with their personal interests and agendas, the BBC stands as one of the few institutions committed to impartiality and serving the public.
We have heard, not just today but over the years, accusations of political bias. I have friends on the left who accuse the BBC of being biased against them, and family members on the right, with whom I am sure I will have conversations over Christmas, make the same comments. Does the hon. Lady agree that if both sides—and indeed, I am sure, the middle—have complaints about it, perhaps the BBC is getting something right?
I agree with the hon. Gentleman.
Does the Minister agree that the BBC’s funding model must not be a Trojan horse for those who seek to undermine its editorial independence and pave the way for figures such as Elon Musk, whom we have little opportunity to scrutinise or hold to account? Liberal Democrats are committed to a strong, independent and well-funded BBC that continues to reflect the diversity of our nation and serves all audiences.
I do not disagree with a lot of what the hon. Lady has said about the value of the BBC, but the problem is that more and more people are unwilling to pay the licence fee, and that has to be addressed. She wants to see a strongly financed and funded BBC, but she is going to have to come up with an answer to the fact that the revenue is going to go on declining under the present model.
I do not disagree that there needs to be a plan, but at the moment I do not see one on the table. The next charter review is the time to have a serious, evidence-based discussion about funding, but any changes must strengthen, not diminish, the BBC.
Through the BBC we see things about our nation and the world that we might never encounter in our own lives. As Sir David Attenborough has said, the world would be worse off without our stories. It must be taken with great pride that the British public has a direct role in providing the platform needed to nurture and share the genius of so many British individuals in the creative industry. I hope we can continue to protect public ownership of the BBC, to preserve the voices and stories that make us who we are.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. Let me start by wishing all Members and you, Mr Mundell, a very merry Christmas. I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Sir John Whittingdale) for securing this valuable debate, which has been a spirited one with some interesting points. I will pose some questions to the Minister in, as it is Christmas, the most constructive way I can.
The BBC plays a fundamental role in the lives of the vast majority of people in the country, and its scope is impossible to underestimate. The National Union of Journalists estimates that 91% of British adults use BBC television, radio or online each week. As a number of Members have pointed out, its global reach is equally important: 426 million people access the BBC every week via the World Service and its worldwide and global news services.
The BBC’s reach and reputation is rightly a source of pride for people in the UK. However, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Maldon pointed out, as we approach the renewal of the BBC’s royal charter in 2027, there is no denying that the Government must recognise some of the challenges that the organisation faces, not least in respect of its sustainability, with decreasing licence fee uptake and decreasing revenues.
The issue of trust has been brought up. The social contract that exists between the licence fee payer and the BBC is fundamental. Unless we ensure that people have faith in the BBC and its role in society, endless questions about its relevance and importance will continue to be a factor in public discourse. Failure to address that will undermine trust in the BBC.
The BBC is one of our great institutions. Since its founding, it has promoted the very best of Britain at home and abroad. It has guided our nation through war, economic and political crises and much more. It needs to be trusted, especially as we see our adversaries like Russia and China bolstering the reach of their own state broadcasters. We also see the concerning impact of AI and misinformation domestically and around the world. We must emphasise the issue of trust. We are clearly seeing a trend in the questioning of the BBC’s credibility, as pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch and Upminster (Julia Lopez), who was an excellent Minister on these issues, as was my right hon. Friend the Member for Maldon.
Recent funding figures are a cause for concern. A 2015 report by the Culture, Media and Sport Committee found that some view the licence fee as “anachronistic” and
“harder and harder to sustain”.
Its conclusions are verified by the fact that licence fee income between 2022-23 and 2023-24 went down, and there were fewer licences in force at the end of March 2024 than the end of 2023. That clearly suggests that more people are reluctant to pay the licence fee because they are not believing in the BBC or trusting it. This is a foundational challenge for the Government. This country needs the BBC. The challenge is for the Government and the BBC to make that case. I hope the Minister will recognise that in her response.
We must also recognise that the way that people, especially our younger generations, engage with media has altered dramatically in the past decade. The covid pandemic accelerated some of the trends that have dramatically transformed the media landscape. It led to a surge in online streaming companies, which now dominate the market. As we approach the review of the royal charter, we cannot ignore the radically different media environment that the BBC is operating and competing in compared with that of just 10 years ago. The Government must understand that unless there is genuine reform of the BBC and how it functions, it will continue to be an analogue service in a digital world.
There is no denying that the licence fee model was conceived at a time of linear viewing, when watching programmes at the time of broadcast was commonplace. The reality is much different now. The BBC competes in a far more crowded market—a market that can be accessed at any time, anywhere. Licence fee payments will not increase if the BBC does not continue to strive to adapt to the rapid changes in online media that we all have to interact with. What discussions is the Minister having with the BBC to ensure that its funding remains sustainable over the next 10 years, in the light of a radically different media landscape? I acknowledge that these are not easy questions; they require leadership and clarity, so I hope the Minister can provide some of that in her remarks.
The issue of local radio has also been brought up, and the Government should seek to engage constructively with the BBC about its future. The BBC has 39 local radio stations that currently reach 5.7 million listeners. Under the terms of the current royal charter, the BBC has an obligation to reflect the diversity of the United Kingdom in both its output and its services and must meet the needs of its regions and communities. As the National Union of Journalists sets out, local radio is a lifeline for often-isolated rural communities and provides an invaluable source of news and education for so many, especially elderly people in our communities. At a time when elderly people are feeling more and more marginalised, it would be wrong to make further cuts to local radio, which provides essential information and entertainment for millions. My right hon. Friend the Member for Maldon made some excellent suggestions in that regard, and I hope the Minister can address his concerns.
I want to turn to Ofcom, because the question of BBC funding raises other issues that have been brought up in a number of different ways when it comes to the BBC’s impartiality. As Ofcom is the broadcasting regulator and has the role of challenging broadcasters, especially in an ever more competitive environment, there are clearly questions that the public will want answers to. In the past decade, the BBC has had many new competitors, and I want to raise the issue of GB News. Ofcom recently fined GB News £100,000 for its programme with the former Prime Minister in February this year. Many people believed that was not correct, and I also question it. The Government should question Ofcom’s remit, its scope to deny freedom of speech, and whether its fines are proportionate in the circumstances, as we enter an ever more competitive media landscape that is fundamentally different compared with the previous decade.
I wish you a merry Christmas, Mr Mundell, and I thank all Members for their contributions; I hope they have a happy new year.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. I echo the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Meriden and Solihull East (Saqib Bhatti), in wishing a merry Christmas to everyone present, and congratulate the right hon. Member for Maldon (Sir John Whittingdale) on securing this important debate. He and I have had a lot of opportunities to debate the BBC together this week.
Let me start by responding to some of the points that the shadow Minister and others made. First, the right hon. Member for Maldon pointed out that it is a good time to have this debate. He opened by talking about the importance of public service broadcasting today. We spent many hours debating the Media Act 2024, which is legislation that goes to the heart of these issues and now falls to this Government to implement.
The shadow Minister and the hon. Member for Didcot and Wantage (Olly Glover) pointed out how many people access the BBC—over 90% every month—but also the fact that there are lots of important and challenging issues about BBC funding and the charter review.
It has been a good debate, and Members have rightly shared their own experiences and memories of the BBC. My hon. Friend the Member for Southport (Patrick Hurley) spoke about the shared experience we have as a country, and how the BBC brings us together. A week today we will all be watching the King’s speech and, of course, “Gavin and Stacey”—or at least I will be.
Members from all parties, and in particular my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket (Peter Prinsley), spoke about their passion and support for the World Service. The right hon. Member for Maldon serves on the Foreign Affairs Committee, to which I was pleased to give evidence. I am pleased that three Select Committees are taking such an interest in the topic. There are a lot of questions and challenges, but it is important that we put on the record our support for the World Service.
The shadow Minister asked questions about engagement with the BBC; the Secretary of State and I have met with the BBC and will continue to do so. The shadow Minister also asked questions about local radio. It is important to state that the BBC is operationally independent, but when I was in the shadow Minister’s place I made my views very clear, as did the hon. Member for Hornchurch and Upminster (Julia Lopez), who was the Minister at the time.
I will speak more broadly about the BBC before addressing some of the wider funding issues. For over 100 years the BBC has been a cherished British asset, making a vital contribution to our national life. It supports our democracy, brings our communities together and helps to shape and define our nation by telling the stories of people in all parts of the UK. The BBC has an almost unique role as a source of trusted news, both in the UK and to millions of people across the globe, as well as being a provider of cutting-edge programming and educational content for the nation’s children. It is so often the first to invest in the skills, the physical assets and the creativity to boost the creative industries in all corners of the country.
The media environment has of course changed over the BBC’s long history. Even since the start of the current charter period in 2017, when the Government were bringing iPlayer into the scope of the licence fee, the market has significantly evolved—a point that has been discussed. The right hon. Member for Maldon knows all that very well, not least because he served as Secretary of State for DCMS during the previous charter review.
The world is changing and, as the right hon. Member for Maldon outlined in his speech, for the first time half of 16 to 24-year-olds now do not watch broadcast TV on a weekly basis. We are seeing audiences increasingly turn to on-demand content, and more than two thirds of households subscribe to streaming services, compared with about a third at the start of the charter period.
The shadow Minister asked about some of the challenges that go to the heart of this debate. As an institution, the BBC has often needed to adapt, renew and grapple with an ever-increasing pace of change. That is something that the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire North and Moray East (Seamus Logan) spoke about in his contribution.
Next year, the Government will formally launch charter review with the need for adaptation in mind. We intend to use charter review to think through the operation of the BBC and how it thrives for not just the next 10 years, but well into the latter half of this century. We know that any reform to the BBC, particularly when it comes to funding, could have a major impact on the whole sector. We will consider that carefully as part of the charter review. We want to have a national conversation to make sure that the BBC truly represents and delivers for every person in this country, wherever they come from and whatever their background. That will include the opportunity for stakeholders and audiences across the country to respond to the charter review public consultation before the new charter comes into effect in 2028.
Our thinking will also be informed by my Department’s wider work. We are undertaking a project on the future of TV distribution to analyse how people receive their television now and through the next decade. That will help us to ensure the continuity of a sustainable TV ecosystem and the best outcome for audiences.
As we address vital questions about the future form of the BBC head on, we must also ensure that there is a sustainable funding model that is fair to those who pay for it. These are undoubtedly complex issues, on which people hold strong opinions, but this Government want to have an open and honest discussion about them in the public’s best interests.
We are fully committed to retaining the licence fee for the rest of this charter period, but we cannot ignore the fact that challenges to this funding model in its current form are increasing, as has been highlighted in the debate. The media market is more competitive than ever, with the emergence of streamers and social media platforms operating on a global scale. That has meant less money for the BBC to invest in our creative industries, in talent and skills, and in telling our stories. It has also resulted in cuts to BBC services, which the hon. Member for Salford (Rebecca Long Bailey) spoke about.
The Secretary of State has announced that we will take forward work on BBC funding as part of the charter review process to bring together the linked issues of what the BBC does, its future role and how it is funded. The Government are keeping an open mind about the future of the licence fee.
The right hon. Member for Maldon referred to his chairing of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee. More recently, the Committee’s 2021 report on the future of public service broadcasting found that there are a range of options for funding the BBC, but none are perfect.
The Secretary of State has talked about her support for mutualisation, but it has never been clear to me what that actually means. Could the Minister give us more details?
I will happily ask the Secretary of State to write to the hon. Lady. However, in talking about mutualisation, which the Secretary of State made some comments about some years ago, I think it is about having a greater role for the public in BBC accountability and the public feeling more ownership of it. But we will happily write to the hon. Lady with more detail, as I do not want to speak on the Secretary of State’s behalf.
I thank the Minister for her response; she is always very positive and very enthusiastic. In last night’s Adjournment debate on the charter review, she referred to complaints and how they will be handled by Ofcom or other organisations. However, the people who come to me with the examples of bias that I referred to are some of those who do not have a BBC licence and will not buy one. If the BBC has a better system, where people who have complaints about bias, whatever they may be, have their complaints handled in a good, honest and transparent way, that might draw back some people who have decided not to renew their licence. Will she assure us that that will happen?
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Of course, we spoke about this issue in the debate last night. There is the complaints procedure through BBC First, and complaints can be escalated to the executive complaints unit and then to Ofcom. But I appreciate that some people have simply decided not to buy a TV licence, and we want to explore the issue of trust and confidence in the BBC as part of the charter renewal process and the review. There will be a public consultation, in which his and my constituents, and the constituents of Members across the House, can take part.
We are not in the business of reform for reform’s sake. We will think in the broadest sense about the options for the BBC’s funding and structure, and nothing is off the table, as the Secretary of State said in evidence to the Culture, Media and Sport Committee last week. It is clear that there are limits to the amount of money that the BBC can raise from commercial sources, particularly given its obligations as a public service broadcaster. We firmly believe that the unique obligations placed on the BBC demand continued and sustainable public funding in support of its vital work.
In the meantime, we must ensure that the BBC is properly and fairly supported for the remainder of this charter. That is why we have announced that we are increasing the annual cost of a TV licence from April 2025 by £5, in line with consumer prices index inflation, which is less than half as much as last year’s increase. For the BBC, that will provide additional and proportionate funding that will allow it to continue to deliver world-class educational and engaging programming. We always take decisions on funding to provide certainty and stability for the BBC while ensuring that those decisions deliver the best outcomes for licence fee payers.
The Government have already noted the ongoing concerns about the impact of TV licensing enforcement action on vulnerable households. I am acutely aware of the financial difficulties faced by some households, and we are committed to supporting them to spread the cost of a TV licence. We recently announced an expansion of the simple payment plan to all unlicensed households facing financial hardship to help more people pay in flexible instalments, rather than them having to find a greater amount of money up front. We will also look at enforcement issues as part of the longer-term funding work we take forward at charter review.
The provision of trustworthy local and national news is vital for democracy and to hold elected representatives to account, especially at a time when misinformation and disinformation are spreading at rapid speeds. Local journalism, in particular, also helps to foster community in areas like mine in Barnsley. By reporting on stories that matter to local people, the BBC helps people to feel connected to the place they call home. In the past few days alone in my area, the BBC has reported on a new sculpture that will be placed on a roundabout in Goldthorpe, a local Christmas tree that had to be taken down due to dangers related to wind and vandalism, and a new specialist care home being built in Barnsley. Those kinds of varied local stories matter to local people, and they enrich their understanding of the issues affecting their neighbourhoods. I know Members from across the House will have similar stories to share.
Ultimately, the BBC has a huge role to play in telling our country’s story, creating great jobs and opportunities and driving growth in the creative economy. We are determined to get the forthcoming charter review right to future-proof the BBC and to ensure that we can all continue to enjoy and benefit from it for decades to come. The right hon. Member for Maldon has made an important contribution, not just today, but through his years of public service, and I thank him for that.
I begin by thanking all hon. Members who have taken part in the debate. A number of criticisms of the BBC have been expressed, and I have my own criticisms; nevertheless, everybody recognises the value that the BBC brings to the UK and our society, and the importance of ensuring that it continues to play that important role. But there is a problem: the current model is looking harder and harder to sustain. I therefore suspect that we will continue to debate this issue over the coming weeks and years during the charter renewal process. I look forward to continuing my discussion with the Minister and others. I thank everybody for their contributions and join the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Meriden and Solihull East (Saqib Bhatti), the Minister and all others in wishing all Members a very happy Christmas.
I am surprised that nobody has mentioned BBC Parliament, on which this debate will appear. I understand that it is available over Christmas, when it shows highlights from parliamentary proceedings—of which I am sure this debate will be part.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered the future funding of the BBC.
(1 week, 1 day ago)
Westminster HallWestminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
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I will call Nick Timothy to move the motion and, later, the Minister to respond. I think it has been agreed that a number of other Members will make short contributions to the debate.
I beg to move,
That this House has considered immigration and nationality statistics.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Mundell—happy Christmas to you, the Clerks and other House staff.
I want to make clear my overall view of the rate and nature of immigration to Britain in recent years. To be frank, it has been a disgrace. Every Prime Minister since Tony Blair has promised control, only to oversee record numbers of people coming here. Immigration is the biggest broken promise in British politics, and probably the biggest single reason that British politics is so broken. This could not be more important, because mass immigration undermines our economy, capital stock, and cultural coherence and identity. It quite literally changes the country we are.
I think the issue that the hon. Gentleman and I agree on, and probably most Members in this Chamber will agree on, is that there are two categories: those who are fleeing their countries on human rights grounds and because of the persecution of their religious beliefs, who should go through the system, and economic migrants—those who are young and healthy, and who jump on the boat at Calais and come across. Those are ones we need to stop. Does he agree?
I certainly agree that most people crossing the channel are not really seeking refuge, because they are coming from a safe country: France. They are seeking their economic betterment, which may be legitimate from their perspective, but is not necessarily in our interests as a country.
I must be honest: my party played its part in this policy failure. I say “policy failure” because, at times—certainly when I worked in the Home Office and, I think, when my hon. Friend the Member for Weald of Kent (Katie Lam) was in the Home Office—there was a genuine attempt to get the numbers down. Indeed, back in those years, the numbers fell, but ultimately we failed, thanks to free movement rules, a loss of wider political support for our work across Government, and a failure to reform the higher and further education system, public services and the wider economy, so as to get off the addiction to more and more migration.
Brexit should have changed all that. It was a clear vote not only to reclaim our sovereignty, but to reduce and control immigration, but the points-based system that followed, with its hugely liberal rules, was always bound to increase the numbers dramatically. For that, my party will need to show sincere contrition and, if we are ever to win again, demonstrate to the public that we truly get it and have a plan to cut immigration drastically.
To inform the policy choices we face and help us to understand what we must do with the millions of newcomers who have started new lives here in the past 25 years or so, we also need much better data. Low-paid immigrants bring costs that are not adequately considered by Government impact assessments. They need housing, drive on roads, use transport, have health needs, take school places, claim benefits and eventually receive the state pension, which was recently valued by an actuary at £250,000 per person. Most immigrants and their dependants will, over their lifetimes, be net recipients of public funds.
However, the British state does not even try to calculate the net fiscal costs and benefits of different profiles of migrant. We get fragments of information from, say, the census, or prison statistics. We know that 72% of Somalis here, for example, live in social housing, compared with 16% of the population overall. We know that one in 50 Albanians here are in prison, and that nationalities such as Iraqis, Jamaicans and Somalis are disproportionately likely to be criminals. We know from now-discontinued income tax data that some nationalities, such as Bangladeshis, receive more in child benefit and tax credits than they pay in income tax and national insurance. That does not even include the costs of education, housing, healthcare, pensions, and other effects on infrastructure and services.
Some European countries have started to do the necessary work. In Denmark, for example, official figures show that Danes and Europeans are net contributors, but migrants and their descendants from the middle east, north Africa, Pakistan and Turkey are net recipients throughout their whole lives, including when they are working.
I have asked various Ministers in oral and written questions whether the Government will commission work to establish the true cost of immigration broken down by profile of migrant. The answer that comes back more often than not is that that has not been done before. However, that is not a reason not to do it now. My first question to the Minister is: if it is not to be done, why not? Can she give us a justification?
I have asked similar questions on specific aspects of policy. The Department for Work and Pensions told me in a letter that
“we are investigating the feasibility of developing and publishing statistics on the immigration status of non-UK/Irish”
nationals, or “customers”, as it bizarrely calls foreign benefits claimants. My second question is: what discussions has the Minister had with counterparts in the DWP about that? When will that work be completed? Will the data be broken down by nationality, visa route and type of benefit?
We know bits of information on social housing from the census, as I said, but that is not good enough. Only yesterday, a grotesque online video was published by Westminster city council promoting social housing in Arabic, Bengali, Spanish and French, which, given the rules around no recourse to public funds, I found somewhat surprising. My third question is: what discussions has the Minister had with counterparts in the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government about that? Can we get annual data on social housing occupation by nationality, visa and asylum status?
Does my hon. Friend agree that some excellent work on the issue of data and immigration has been done by our hon. Friend the Member for Harborough, Oadby and Wigston (Neil O’Brien), who has been a cheerleader for getting the kind of information that would help us inform public policy? As he is talking about social housing, does he share my concerns that the Labour Government seem to be moving away from some of the provisions we put in place to prioritise British people for housing?
I endorse that entirely and pay tribute to our hon. Friend the Member for Harborough, Oadby and Wigston (Neil O'Brien) for the excellent work he has done. He was the first Member of this House to talk about what he calls the “data desert” when it comes to immigration.
On criminal justice policy, the Justice Secretary very recently refused to answer in the Chamber when I asked if the Government would publish the nationality, visa and asylum status of all imprisoned offenders. My fourth question is: why did she refuse to do that? Why can the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice not come together to publish that data?
There are many other areas of policy, but I want to turn to the Home Office in particular. The Home Secretary told the House of Commons in July that the Rwanda policy had cost the taxpayer £700 million by the time Labour had come to power and that by ending the retrospective element of the duty to remove in the Illegal Migration Act 2023, she would save the public £7 billion over 10 years. Those numbers were clearly preposterous, and Home Office officials got in touch with me to express their concern about the things she said on the Floor of the House. The National Audit Office had said in March that the Rwanda scheme’s total cost was only £290 million, which included a £50 million payment made between its study and the general election. To be fair, the NAO costs did not include some things, such as the cost of detaining migrants. However, those costs would have had to have been met without the Rwanda scheme anyway, and it is difficult to understand what might justify a £410 million difference between what the NAO said and what the Home Secretary said on the Floor of the House of Commons.
In a letter to the shadow Home Secretary copied to me, the Home Office permanent secretary gave a breakdown—if it can be called a breakdown—of the costs behind the £700 million claim that ludicrously lumped together £278 million under the title “Other fixed costs” with very little description of what that means. My fifth question is: can the Minister tell us specifically what those costs are? Will she hand over all the relevant data to the Office for Statistics Regulation? Can she commit to placing in the Library a detailed set of accounts to justify that number?
In a separate letter to me, the permanent secretary justified the discrepancy by claiming that the NAO report had not included some “expected” Home Office costs. That makes no sense because “expected” implies costs that had not been incurred in March when the NAO report was published, but the Home Office now says that those costs were incurred between 2022-23 and June in 2024-25. In his letter to me, Sir Matthew said:
“Further detail is contained within the impact assessment that accompanied the retrospection statutory instrument that was laid before Parliament.”
But again, the impact assessment models costs in the future, not the past, so I have a sixth question. When the Home Secretary said that the £700 million had already been spent in July, why was her permanent secretary talking about prospective costs in August? Why did he refer to an impact assessment based on future costs, not costs already incurred?
On my seventh question, when the immigration Minister, the hon. Member for Wallasey (Dame Angela Eagle), debated this issue with me in Westminster Hall in September, she promised to write to me to explain those discrepancies. Why did she not do so? Can the Minister tell us why the Home Secretary still has not replied to my letter of 21 September, despite written answers on 22 October and 25 November promising to do so as soon as possible?
Finally, I have asked Ministers in the Home Office and the Foreign Office about the secretive deal to bring Sri Lankan asylum seekers from Diego Garcia to Britan, even though the Government are under no obligation to do so. Home Office officials are worried that among those migrants are criminals and even child abusers. The Home Office said:
“Migrants with criminal convictions, charges, or subject to ongoing investigations were not in scope for that relocation.”
However, in a written answer to me, the immigration Minister refused to say whether the Government had sought or obtained the necessary information from the Sri Lankan Government. On 14 November, the Foreign Office Minister, the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty), answered my question, saying that the Government
“does not have any information about Sri Lankan migrants’ criminality that pre-dates their arrival on British Indian Ocean Territory.”
On 9 December, the immigration Minister answered another of my questions and said:
“The local UK police force in the area where the migrants have been located have been informed of their arrival in the UK.”
That does not sound very reassuring, and there are clear discrepancies between what the Home Office and Foreign Office have said. The fact that the police have had to be notified about the arrival of those migrants would be very alarming to people who live in those areas, if the public actually knew where those migrants are.
For my eighth and final question, can the Minister confirm that the Government have no idea about the criminal records of those migrants dating to their time in Sri Lanka? What on earth are the Government doing importing migrants, for whom we have no legal responsibility, into this country in such secrecy when there are concerns about them inside the Home Office, and without undertaking every conceivable security check?
Order. This debate is for a fixed 30-minute period. I will call each of the three Members who have asked to speak, but I will apply a time limit of three minutes to their contributions. I call Richard Tice.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. I congratulate the hon. Member for West Suffolk (Nick Timothy) on securing this debate. It seems to me that there is a dearth of information, or a sort of conspiracy of silence. It seems quite simple; we have been told for decades that immigration is great for this nation, and therefore it seems quite obvious that we should say, “Fine, prove it.” Why do we not suggest proving it nation by nation, so that we know who is genuinely contributing and adding value, or who is maybe costing us money? We can then work out how we improve growth and ensure that smart immigration works for this country.
A Government who believe in transparency and high-quality data, which we have heard to be the case on numerous occasions, should welcome the opportunity and the suggestion that we need to know, nation by nation, who is coming here, how much they are contributing, and how much they are costing. In the unfortunate example where they commit crimes, we need to know—nation by nation—who is costing us by way of criminals and why they are not immediately removed. With that quality of data, we can make judgments and decisions about smart immigration to the benefit of all, and to the confidence of all our constituents.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Mundell. I congratulate the hon. Member for West Suffolk (Nick Timothy) on securing this debate. As I understand it, when he was in the Home Office, the Conservative Government had a target of 100,000 net migration a year. Clearly, the Conservative Government spectacularly failed in that undertaking, so it is fascinating to me that they are keen to draw attention to this issue, when it is one of their poorest legacies.
I am entertained by the idea that special advisers are so important that they might be able to control outcomes such as this. If the hon. Member thinks that is the case, he might ask the Minister to invite one of the Home Office’s special advisers to take part in parliamentary debates.
Well, thanks for that.
Turning to the issues the hon. Gentleman raised, on data collection, the ONS has significantly improved the immigration data we have in the last couple of years, particularly since the pandemic, by shifting away from the international passenger survey to things like Home Office and DWP administrative data. Is he aware of the Migration Advisory Committee report that came out yesterday that talks about the fiscal contributions and net impact of those coming through the skilled worker visa? It shows a net positive impact.
The hon. Gentleman raises the issue of other fixed costs for Rwanda, but the Home Office documentation is pretty clear on what that means. It means the things like digital and IT, legal costs and staff costs required to operationalise the Rwanda scheme. This information is all in the public domain, so I am perplexed as to why we are having a debate on it: I think it reflects the fact that the Conservatives have absolutely failed to understand why they got immigration policy so wrong when they were in government and why they failed to address the immigration challenges we have in the UK. The debate focuses not on the impact on communities or the economy, just the numbers overall. For years, the Conservatives focused on a net migration target that they spectacularly failed to meet again and again, and never tried to look at the impact of migration on communities.
It is so obvious that migrants are a vast range of different people. Different migrants will have different impacts in the different communities where they settle. There is a huge difference between adding some EU workers to parts of England that have never seen any immigration and having new immigration in big cities that have long histories and structures of absorbing immigration. We need to understand that our communities experience impacts differently.
We also need to think about the churn of immigration. There are two types of immigrants. Some will come, stay here, settle, learn English and get jobs, and, yes, over time they will turn into—just like any other British person—someone who uses public services sometimes but contributes to the tax base at other times. We have a model where we have high levels of churn in the immigration system. People will come and work for a couple of years, leave after they have learned English and got to know how the system works here and be replaced by new immigrants from overseas. It is not just about the number of net migrants in the country but the churn and lack of integration that we see.
Think about Madeleine Albright and her family who fled the Nazis. They first came to Britain and then went to the US as refugees. Madeleine Albright said that in Britain people said, “You are welcome here. How long until you leave?” Whereas in America they said, “You are welcome here. How long until you become a citizen?” We have no discussion about the trajectory we want to see migrants travel: integrating into our communities and contributing. We are stuck in a discussion about numbers and overall statistics that leaves the public utterly cold. I have run out of time, but it is fascinating to see that the Conservatives have not learned any lessons from the last 15 years of their migration mistakes.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell.
There is a concerted campaign within Government to hide vital statistics from the British people regarding the impact of uncontrolled mass immigration—legal and illegal. Let me be abundantly clear: it is a cover-up. Whether it is crimes committed by illegal migrants or a nationality breakdown of those claiming benefits, the British people deserve to know the ugly truth. If there is nothing to hide, show us the data. Information is being concealed from the public on crime, welfare claims, tax contributions, size of illegal population, public service usage and so much more. Either the Home Office is deliberately hiding the numbers or the data is genuinely not collected. Both options are equally terrifying. It is either pure incompetence or shocking dishonesty. Sadly, I believe it is the latter. My message to the Home Office is clear: show us the data, and we can make up our own minds. The ongoing cover-up is simply not acceptable. When will we get total transparency?
I call the Minister to conclude the debate. In these 30-minute debates, there is no opportunity for the Member in charge to respond; the Minister’s contribution will conclude the debate.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Mundell. I thank the hon. Member for West Suffolk (Nick Timothy) and congratulate him on securing this important debate. I also thank my colleagues from across the House who have contributed.
There has been an important focus today on statistics, which I welcome because this Government believe in making good use of facts and evidence when delivering policy. Various points have been raised, and I want to come back to all of them, but, if I do miss any, I hope that Members will allow me to respond to some of their points in writing. I also recognise that the Minister for Border Security and Asylum, my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Dame Angela Eagle), is unable to be here today.
Before I address Members’ points, I want to make a few remarks reflecting on the immigration system that the Government inherited. The hon. Member for West Suffolk alluded to the situation that we found, and it is worth reflecting on what the latest official figures show because they shocked us all. Under the previous Government, net migration grew almost five times higher in four years—and is still four times higher—-than it was before the pandemic, driven heavily by an increase in overseas recruitment. The Home Secretary and the Prime Minister have both been extremely clear that net migration needs to come down. We are, therefore, continuing with visa controls, which we supported when they were introduced by the previous Government. However, we are also clear that much more needs to be done to restore order and credibility to the system. That is why—
I will make some remarks; I know the hon. Lady has already contributed.
That is why we are pursuing a new approach to end the overreliance on international recruitment by ensuring that the immigration, skills and training systems are properly aligned in a way they have not previously been. Further details of our plans to reduce net migration will be set out in the forthcoming White Paper. I am sure the hon. Member for West Suffolk will want to contribute and bring his own experience in government, which I do respect. I am sure he will also want to engage on how we build the solutions and the architecture that we need for a new part of how Government works, working across the Home Office, skills and our future needs, as well as on how we ensure that we are supporting migrants into work, which is also part of the role of the DWP.
Let me turn to some of the issues raised in the debate. It is worth saying that the issue of dangerous small boat crossings has been a phenomenon of the last five or six years. There has been an increase from 300 people coming in 2018 to an average of over 36,000 a year in the last three years—a 120-fold increase. We cannot deny that, in a few short years, an entire criminal smuggler industry has been built around boat crossings, and that has also been allowed to take hold across the UK border. The cost of the asylum system also increased by more than five times to £5.4 billion between 2019-20 and last year. Returns of those with no right to be here are 30% lower than they were in 2010, and asylum-related returns were down by 20% compared with 14 years ago. That was the legacy we inherited from the previous Government, and former Ministers themselves have admitted it was shameful.
On the calls for more data, the Home Office and the Office for National Statistics publish a very wide range of statistical information on a regular basis. Our country’s statisticians, and those working in my Department and other Departments, are in fact world leaders in the production of statistics and analysis on the topic of migration. I am sure that the hon. Member for West Suffolk will know that the UK publishes, I believe, more statistics on migration than any other country. The content and presentation of official statistics is kept under review and that regular oversight allows us to balance the production of regular statistics with the need to develop new statistics and statistical products for future release. We remain committed to the issues of transparency and ensuring that public and parliamentary debates are informed by robust and accurate statistics, and to keeping statistics under review.
The hon. Member for West Suffolk raised a few comments on some of his correspondence and it would be helpful to refer to some of that. I assure him that the Home Office has received his letter of 1 September and is due to respond in due course. The breakdown of £700 million in costs, which the hon. Member inquired about, has been published on gov.uk and sets out the cost of the Rwanda partnership and the Illegal Migration Act 2023, which were inseparable. The purpose of the IMA was to prevent individuals arriving in the UK from remaining here, and Rwanda was intended to be a vehicle for enabling that. To try and separate them is deliberately misrepresenting the true cost of what was clearly a failed policy.
The hon. Gentleman can come back in a moment.
The proposal to send asylum applicants to Rwanda was impractical, costly and would not have worked to reduce irregular migration. We believe in dealing with these issues with common sense in the work we have been undertaking: making sure we have a new Border Security Command and Border Security Commander, working upstream, building new partnerships with other countries and doing that in order to also disrupt the supply chains of criminal gangs, who the hon. Member for West Suffolk knows are undermining our border security and putting lives at risk. We will continue to spend taxpayer money on real solutions such as breaking the business models of those criminal gangs. In fact, when we made it clear that the Rwanda partnership would come to an end, we saw, for example, the repurposing of two flights provisionally booked for Rwanda, which were used to return a number of individuals to their home countries instead.
I thank the Minister for giving way and I appreciate that she has been given a hospital pass by the immigration Minister, who really ought to be the person here, but last time she was, she did not give a very good account of herself, and has been avoiding writing letters or giving any of the numbers that the Opposition have been asking for.
The statement—which was obviously pre-prepared, and I understand how these things work—does not address any of the questions that I raised in my speech. It is not true that we are world leaders in the collection of statistics that relate to immigration. Anyway, the questions related not to overall levels of net migration from particular countries and so on, but to things such as the nationality and immigration status of criminals and imprisoned criminals, or people living in social housing or in receipt of benefits. We do not have any information on that, and if we are compared to some European countries such as Denmark or the Netherlands, a study from which shows that the average asylum migrant costs something like £400,000 net over their lifetimes, we are nowhere. Can the Minister give us a quick answer on that?
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. As I said, we do keep our statistics under review. He will also know that a lot of research on the cost and benefit of migration has been done by the Migration Advisory Committee, and its annual report, published this week, is another example of the work it is doing, with its capacity expanding to help us address some of the challenges of bringing net migration down alongside having a more coherent policy for how we do that across Government. Indeed, the recent estimate of the average contribution of skilled workers is also demonstrated in the report.
I will make this point before I finish: the hon. Member for West Suffolk will know that the Ministry of Justice does publish data on foreign national offenders in the UK in its official statistics. He will also know that we have seen a 21% increase in foreign criminals being removed from the UK, compared to the same period last year. That sends a clear message to foreign criminals that if they break the law, they will not be allowed to stay in the UK.
I recognise the importance of the debate and the issues that have been raised today. I thank the hon. Member for raising them and we will respond to him in due course.
Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).
(1 week, 1 day ago)
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I beg to move,
That this House has considered creative arts education.
It is a pleasure to open this debate about the importance of creative arts education. I refer Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, both as chair of the all-party parliamentary group on performing arts education and training and as trustee of Chichester Festival Theatre.
Throughout December, my diary, like those of all Members across the House, is jam-packed with wonderful occasions that feature a celebration of the arts—be they carol concerts in local churches, school plays or pantomimes. I have loved the live music on my high street at the Chichester Christmas market. I had a fantastic time as the guest judge at the Priory Park pantomime, and once the House rises I will be off to enjoy the Chichester Festival Youth Theatre’s production of “Cinderella”—a professional production on the main stage—with my family. I had the privilege of performing on that stage as a member of that very same youth theatre: an experience that I still treasure as an adult, and one that encouraged me to continue my education in the creative arts.
After studying drama at GCSE and A-level, I went on to the University of Chichester and obtained a degree in performing arts. Before this giddy world of politics ensnared me, I had the privilege of teaching the next generation performing arts at various organisations and in schools. I am living proof that a creative education can lead anywhere, including to this place.
The arts and cultural sector contributes well over £8 billion to the UK economy each year. It puts £2.5 billion directly into the Treasury through taxation, and the creative industries as a whole generated £125 billion in 2022. They account for almost 6% of the UK economy, create 2.5 million jobs and have a huge impact on the tourism economy, with one in 10 tourists to the UK visiting a theatre. Theatres sell 34 million tickets a year across the UK.
The hon. Lady is making an excellent speech, and I commend her for her work in this area. Does she agree that many wonderful venues could be developed across towns and cities in this country? In my area, Reading Gaol has incredible potential. It has been derelict for some time, although it was bought recently. We are trying to see what arts provision can be offered there. Is there not enormous scope for developing more theatre and art space across the country, which can provide incredible value to local communities?
I thank the hon. Member and commend him on his work in trying to get Reading Gaol opened as an arts space.
A project in Selsey in my constituency is trying to restore a beautiful old pavilion, which used to hold many events but was then left to go to rack and ruin. The Selsey Pavilion Trust is working tirelessly to try and get that venue up and running so that the Selsey community can once again enjoy arts in their own town.
As a country, we have a duty to ensure that the next generation of employees is suitably equipped to join a sector that can drive the growth and innovation that the UK needs now more than ever. We must ensure that a career in the arts continues to be seen by our young people as a viable and valuable choice well into the future.
I remember having that debate with my mum, in an Italian restaurant at the age of 18, after I had been accepted to go to university to study business. I confessed that I was following that path so that I could get a proper job, and that I did not believe that she could possibly support me in following my real desire: to study theatre. Luckily, she did, and it paid off—I turned down that place at university, and a year later went to the University of Chichester to study theatre. My degree not only taught me the craft of performing arts, but developed valuable personal and employment skills, such as collaborative working, demonstrating initiative and problem solving.
To be clear, the creative arts are a broad field that includes many artistic disciplines. Although my background is performing arts and drama, when I talk about a lack of creative arts in our education system, I refer not just to drama, but to music, dance, visual arts, creative writing, textiles, and the design and technology subjects.
In this debate, I want to focus on the structure of the English baccalaureate, and the failure to include arts subjects in it. This is putting arts education in the UK in an urgent state of crisis, and will have a wider impact on the creative sector if not addressed by this Government. The English baccalaureate requires children to take up GCSEs in several subjects, none of which is in the arts. Since its introduction in 2010, arts subjects have seen a drastic decline in the number of students taking them further in their education: a 29% decrease in drama, a 24% decrease in music, and a 65% reduction in the six design and technology subjects. Compare that with geography, which has seen increase of 42%; history, which has seen an increase of 33%; and the single sciences, which are up by 38%.
The issue is very apparent in my constituency. Chichester College is investing in a state-of-the-art science, technology, engineering and maths building, which is due to open shortly—I applaud its work in getting that building up and running—while cancelling its drama A-level for new students this coming year, because of a lack of take-up. That has upset many students in the Chichester constituency.
I come from Falmouth, which has a world-leading arts university. The idea of STEAM—science, technology, engineering, arts and maths—adds the creativity of the arts, and unlocks some of the creativity in science and tech. That is where we get breakthroughs. Does the hon. Member agree?
I am glad that the hon. Member is the first person in the room to raise STEAM. Adding arts to the STEM subjects is such an important and viable way of opening up the curriculum.
When I visit private schools in my constituency, their arts departments are flourishing. An article in The Times in November found that nearly half of all film and television directors nominated for British Academy of Film and Television Arts awards were educated at independent schools, and one in six was educated at Oxford or Cambridge. That highlights the stark class inequalities in access to the creative industries, which will worsen if the trend of de-prioritising arts education in state schools and colleges continues.
I will not ask hon. Members to take my word for it. Earlier this week, I spoke to Hugh Bonneville—yes, I am willing to name-drop my friend—who wrote in his book “Playing Under the Piano” about a school he visited in 2019: a newly built academy that taught around 2,000 students. It was an impressive school, but it had no music provision, no choir, no band, and no studio space for drama or dance. The students who were working on scenes from “Romeo and Juliet” had pushed the bookshelves to one side in a corner of the library to create a rehearsal space. As Hugh wrote:
“How on earth is the next generation of those who drive the multi-billion pound entertainment and creative industries to be discovered, or even to take part?”
The current structure of the English baccalaureate is opposed by teachers, education experts, trade unions, artists and the creative sector. Perhaps more importantly, a survey by the Cultural Learning Alliance concluded that one of the advantages of arts-based studies is stronger educational attainment generally, and there are well-acknowledged connections between participation in the performing arts and stronger self-motivation, as well as improved physical and mental wellbeing and the development of inner resilience.
Any organisation or charity currently working to support young people can describe the acute mental health crisis that our young people face. One example is the Young People’s Shop, a charity operating in Chichester that, alongside its counselling service, runs arts-based group sessions, recognising the link between mental health and creative expression. The Liberal Democrats have long called for a mental health professional in every school and I applaud that. Given the connection I have laid out, I strongly advocate working closely with creative arts provision in schools as an outlet for expression and stress relief.
I take this opportunity to acknowledge the role that outside organisations play in giving our young people a creative education. Some of my happiest memories are of evenings spent at my local amateur dramatic society rehearsing for the upcoming panto, and Thursday evenings throughout the year with my friends at Chichester Festival Youth Theatre.
I pay tribute to organisations such as Chichester Festival Theatre, which has one of the most ambitious youth theatres in the country. It acknowledged that its youth theatre was not reaching as well as it could the communities that would benefit from access, so it created seven satellite youth theatres across West Sussex to ensure that each of those communities has access to top-quality education, classes for students with additional needs, and theatre-based courses for school refusers and those out of mainstream education. CFT even launched a technical youth theatre for young people more interested in the workings of the backstage than the front stage.
I recognise how lucky we in Chichester are to have a theatre, such as CFT, that puts learning and participation at the core of everything it does, but I want every child in this country to have the opportunity afforded to my constituents.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. I thank my hon. Friend for securing the debate. Wales is very proud of its reputation for producing great musicians, actors and actresses—I will not try to name them all lest I forget people. My hon. Friend talked of the difficulties faced by people entering the profession and the worrying fact that the numbers might be dropping off. How does she think our state would be best placed to encourage people to go into the profession? Would that be through investing in buildings and education, or something else?
I thank my hon. Friend. I think it is both; it is about making spaces that are accessible to communities so they can explore the creative industries, but the Government can also do something. Government money could be used more wisely in consolidating those funding pots so that they are utilised to best effect by focusing on specialist world-class providers, delivering both in communities and via our education system.
I finish by reflecting that since the general election the Government have made all the right noises to suggest that a stronger emphasis may be put on creative education. Will the Minister, when she responds, commit to a reform of the English baccalaureate and set out a timeline for our schools to reintegrate arts education into the core curriculum? Will any further work be done on the integration of in-school and out-of-school provision of arts education, such as additional funding for music hubs to include dance and drama?
Finally, I thank the Council for Dance, Drama and Musical Theatre for its work in this area. I encourage the Minister, in her spare time over the Christmas recess —in between enjoying carol concerts and pantomimes—to please read its manifesto for performing arts education.
Order. I remind Members that they should bob if they wish be called in the debate. If Members are creative and stick to just over three minutes, I think we will get everybody in.
It is an honour to serve under your chairship, Mr Mundell. I thank the hon. Member for Chichester (Jess Brown-Fuller) for securing the debate. I must declare an interest as the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on art, craft and design in education.
When the sunsets in your town are named after the painter who made them famous, when some of the most loved comedians of the 20th century lived and partied there, when classic books were written or set there, when music hall celebrities made their home there, when one of the most loved Victorian authors lived there and whole weekends are dedicated to celebrating his books, and when actors, musicians and creatives of all kinds flock there, you know that art and creativity are sewn into the fabric of the place that you call home. Everywhere someone turns in Thanet, they bump into an enormously rich heritage of art and creativity. Thanks to the energy, drive and vision of many individuals in our community, art and creativity are part of our present, too. From the Turner gallery to Ramsgate Music Hall, from Screaming Alley to the Pie Factory, and with award-winning artists such as Lindsey Mendick and our very own globally famous Tracey Emin, our home is the home of many artists. Back in the 1870s, we even had Vincent van Gogh, who taught at a school in Ramsgate.
Margate is obviously known as the proud home of the Turner Contemporary art gallery, which is a symbol of the creative sector’s potential to help regenerate coastal communities like mine. There is a long and proud British tradition of talking about the importance of the creative industries, but if we do not also champion creative education, we sentence that extraordinary history to a slow death. Creative education has suffered hugely since the introduction of the English baccalaureate and progress 8, with a dramatic reduction in the number of students taking arts-related subjects. The statistics that the hon. Member for Chichester referred to strike fear into the heart of those of us who know the importance of art and creativity to the wellbeing and advancement of not only our industries, but our young people. As chair of the all-party parliamentary group for art, craft and design in education, alongside the chairs of many other APPGs that represent creative subjects, I am campaigning for the Department to scrap the EBacc and progress 8, as part of the curriculum review, so that we once again encourage all children to take up the arts.
It is important to note that private schools know the value of arts education, which is why they spend so much time, money and effort on encouraging it. We now have a situation in which 40% of people working in the film, TV and music industries were educated at private schools—I remind Members that 7% of the population were educated at private schools—but that is entirely unsurprising, because private schools understand and value the benefits of creative education. Talent is spread equally across all children, but opportunity most certainly is not. With the EBacc and progress 8, the previous Government created a situation of arts education becoming the domain of those who can afford it. If those children deserve an arts education, so do the 93% of kids in state schools. We risk missing out on so much untapped talent across the country. We do not know who the next Tracey Emin or Bob and Roberta Smith is, and if we restrict arts education, I fear that we never will know. Creativity is fundamental to the human condition. We should expand education, not restrict it.
Before I finish, I want to point out the importance of the creative sector to not only our economy, but learning for people with special educational needs. The crisis in our education sector for those young people is particularly significant, because creative education is a way of their accessing learning and helps them to live their fullest lives. I pay tribute to Sammy’s Foundation, which was set up by Patricia Alban, one of my constituents, after her son, Sammy, tragically died. It teaches heritage craft skills to neurodivergent young people to help them to realise their potential and become master artisans. The reality is that young people such as Sammy who are consistently failed by mainstream education could find their passion and career in creative education, and fill a huge skills gap in the craft and heritage workforce. The new Government have taken positive steps by outlining the vast potential of the creative sector, but if they want to unlock the real potential of the industry, they need to enable creative education to thrive, not wither.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Mundell. I thank the hon. Member for Chichester (Jess Brown-Fuller) for securing this timely debate and for her excellent speech, much of which I agreed with. I declare an interest as chair of the APPG on music education. I will therefore focus on the provision of music education across the country.
Since 2010, there has been a steady decline in the provision of music in our schools. According to data from the Independent Society of Musicians, music as a subject has experienced a 30% decline in GCSE entries and a 43% drop in A-level entries since 2010. There has also been a sharp decline in the number of music teachers, which means that in some schools, music is taught by people who are not qualified as music teachers. That is of deep concern.
We heard from the hon. Member for Chichester about the economic benefits of creative subjects, but there is also a personal benefit to students. Building confidence, teaching discipline and teamwork, improved health and wellbeing and even academic achievement are some of the benefits of a music education. However, music provision across the country is patchy, although there are examples of excellence in two schools that I recently visited. In the Aldgate school, less than two miles from here, all children in years 4 to 6 learn stringed instruments—I had the pleasure of seeing them perform at their Christmas concert. Similarly, children in years 4 to 6 at Welbourne primary school in Haringey learn the strings. The leadership of those schools has decided to do that, but those schools are the exceptions rather than the rule. The restructuring of music hubs, which are meant to oversee local music provision, involved a lack of oversight, so the quality of music education is inevitably patchy. We need an urgent review of the hubs to ensure that there is a high standard—as is the case in Haringey, from the Haringey music service—across the board.
Before the Government came to office, they made a pledge about the need to teach creative subjects in schools. The APPG for music education has fed into that review, as I am sure did many Members here today. What we hope for is a return to creative subjects being taught in schools and given the priority that they deserve. They should be taught by people who are suitably qualified to do so. Music and creative subjects are far too important to be demoted, as has been the case over the last 14 years. We want them to rise up the agenda and to be taught as positively as possible. If anyone has not seen Ken Robinson’s TED talk, I strongly encourage them to watch it because he makes the right points about how creativity is necessary to give us all the skills we need in our society.
I hope that the Minister will indicate when the review will report back and when, hopefully, creativity will be taught in our schools. Any other help that she can provide to make that happen will be greatly appreciated.
I thank the hon. Member for Chichester (Jess Brown-Fuller) for bringing forward this essential debate.
I am a GP in Stroud and I have been championing arts in healthcare for over 30 years because creativity makes you better, and there is now a lot of evidence that that is the case. The Gloucestershire integrated care board—the health authority—under Ellen Rule, is investing £600,000 in creative and social prescriptions, which is incredibly exciting. I am helping to run a campaign to try to make music instrument tuition available in every primary school in the country. I co-chair the APPG for opera, which shares that aim, and the APPG for creative health. I also learned the flute at school. Recently I was asked to join the Stroud Red Band, which was one of the most fun things I did as part of my campaign to become an MP, so I thank those involved.
There are serious problems. As we have heard, there are a lot of issues due to the 30% fall in uptake of music GCSE at school. Playing music has a massive impact on children’s mental health. If we are trying to prevent mental health problems, teaching children music is one of the most effective things we can do, and it can also be used to treat mental health difficulties. Our Tory friends might be interested to know that it actually helps with academic maths as well, which is really important. As many hon. Members have said, there are massive inequalities in provision. The Government are now putting £79 million into music hubs and spending £5.8 million through the music opportunity pilot for people with special educational needs.
I shall finish by showcasing a number of local organisations. Strike a Light, which brings drama and music to young people, is really inspirational. The Music Works in Gloucester is also truly inspirational, particularly for children from deprived backgrounds. We have the Prema arts centre in my village of Uley. Gordon Scott, the director, has been teaching the piano to countless children over the past 20 to 30 years. Let us campaign to get music teaching in every primary school.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. I thank the hon. Member for Chichester (Jess Brown-Fuller) for securing this debate and for her outstanding speech. The creative arts is a topic that touches the hearts of all our communities, whatever our constituency, and has a direct impact on the economy and our identity across all our nations and regions.
The Government estimate that creative industries generate £126 billion in gross value added to the economy and employ some 2.5 million people, yet sometimes people argue that there is an either/or when it comes to education and that the performing arts, and the arts in general, are not an economic contributor. In my own area, Kent county council reported that the number of creative jobs has increased by 24% in Kent over the last five years, with 35% of them in the new sectors of IT, software and computer services. None of that happens in isolation. As the hon. Member for Chichester identified, it links back to education in schools. Every actor, film maker and games designer has a foundation in our education system, yet in recent years we have seen a worrying decline in creative arts education.
A recent report published by the University of Warwick indicated that between 2009 and 2023, UK funding for the arts decreased, alongside a 47% slump in GCSE entries in arts subjects. It is absolutely right that the EBacc needs to be looked at alongside the curriculum review to indicate that there is not just a fixation on STEM subjects. As an officer of the all-party parliamentary group for video games and esports, I can say that investment in games technologies and art is about not only the past, but the future, and significant revenue and numbers of jobs can be secured in those sectors. It is an economic necessity that we look at the full breadth of STEAM skills that a 21st-century economy needs.
Medway in my area has a great legacy of theatre, music and production. I myself was a chorister at Rochester cathedral. We celebrate the breadth of diversity in our area, but we are being let down through our education system. I have a number of questions for the Minister. Will art be a key focus of the curriculum review so that all our children can fully access such subjects? Will she report back on some of the changing industries of the future, specifically around gaming, games technologies and e-sports, which represent a significant growth opportunity for our economy and were recognised in the investment programme recently announced by the Government? How can we encourage colleges and schools to look at those sectors of the future and invest in them?
The Local Government Association report says that for every £1 spent on arts and culture, £4 is returned to the local economy. How can we change the narrative that arts are not just a by-product of a successful economy? They are an essential part of our economy.
I will finish by saying that creative education is not just a luxury; it is an absolute necessity. It enriches lives, builds communities and drives our local and national economies. My area of Medway is a shining example of how creativity can transform places, generate prosperity and inspire generations, but we need to go further and faster for the future of all our citizens.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. I thank the hon. Member for Chichester (Jess Brown-Fuller) for organising the debate. I am sure we can all agree that creative arts play a unique and invaluable role in enhancing the wellbeing and education of our young people. The evidence is clear: participation in creative activities and the study of artistic subjects significantly improves students’ mental health, resilience and overall academic achievement.
A report by the Cultural Learning Alliance reveals that students engaged in the arts are three times more likely than others to win an academic award, and five times more likely to be recognised for good attendance, and research from the University of Manchester finds that young people who take part in arts activities are 20% more likely to report higher levels of life satisfaction. Yet, for too long, access to creative education in subjects such as art and design, dance, drama and music has been unequal, with some students receiving little or no exposure. That has allowed creative education to become a privilege largely reserved for those from affluent backgrounds whose families can afford access to cultural and artistic experiences.
Evidence shows that under the last Government, there was an overall decline of 42% in the number of arts GCSE entries. Many schools no longer offer arts subjects at all at GCSE level, and we now have 14% fewer arts teachers than in 2010. That is a damning indictment of the previous Government’s attitude and approach to creative arts education and the wider cultural sector. If we are serious about giving every child the best chance of success, we must ensure that creative arts education is accessible to all, regardless of background or circumstances. I was delighted that the Government committed £79 million to a national network of music hubs, which will give children and young people the opportunity to learn to sing or play an instrument. The investment has the potential to transform lives, providing a pathway for creative expression and personal growth.
I also welcome the piloting of the new music opportunities initiative, with £5.8 million to support students with special educational needs and disabilities, and those from disadvantaged backgrounds. That is essential to ensure that creative opportunities are inclusive and fair.
As a proud Halesowen MP, it would be remiss of me not to highlight the exemplary work of Halesowen college. It is a forward-thinking educational institution that offers a large number of vocational creative arts courses, including acting, dance, fashion, graphic design, media make-up and music. With state-of-the-art facilities, the college provides young people and adults in Halesowen the chance to explore and develop their creative talents. Exciting and creative educational opportunities are available within our community.
As we look ahead, we must continue to champion creative arts education as a vital part of our children’s development, wellbeing and future success. It is only by nurturing their creative potential that the next generation will thrive.
I call Jayne Kirkham. I am saving Mr Shannon for the finale.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Mundell. I thank the hon. Member for Chichester (Jess Brown-Fuller) for obtaining this important debate on a topic I am passionate about.
Cornwall, where I come from, is rich in the creative arts. I have spoken previously about the world-class Falmouth University, which grew out of a 100-year-old art school, with a strategic focus on creativity and technology. I welcome the inclusion of the creative industry in the UK’s eight growth sectors in the recent industrial strategy. It is brilliant that it has been recognised as an economic driver.
Creative education has so many impacts. I will name a few, even though I should not need to, because each one should be enough on its own. The skills development, critical thinking and problem-solving skills gained from an arts education help to focus on future industries such as tech and digital media, driving economic growth. Creativity and entrepreneurial skills go hand in hand. Cornwall is teeming with small and medium-sized enterprises and one-man bands, which stimulate the independent sector and the growth of the area. That is well worth it in an area such as Cornwall that struggles with deprivation.
On my hon. Friend’s point about helping to grow the local economy, can we stop the suggestion that art is anything other than a serious subject? We have had far too much of the idea that it is soft, easy and does not add to wider education and understanding. It is not just an economic driver but fundamental to the human condition.
You are right that it is an important subject in its sheer scope, alongside the sciences, maths and everything else. It does more than enrich our lives; it is a fundamental part of our lives.
I apologise. Creative arts are obviously a regional growth driver. We are lucky in Truro and Falmouth because those creative hubs can revitalise our region and bring in the visitors we need so much. The growth of the Hall for Cornwall, for example, has spread tentacles across the rest of the county, bringing in children and people who want to get involved in the creative arts but do not often have the opportunity.
Many students learn games design at the Launchpad at Falmouth University. They can then start up their own businesses, with the help to do so. We have the Poly, the Princess Pavilion and brilliant grassroots venues, such as the Cornish Bank, the Old Bakery studios and the Chintz, where some of the musicians who are learning in our town go to practise their art. We are also building premises for a community radio station in the park with our shared prosperity funding, which shows just how important the arts are to Falmouth. People come to us for the arts.
We have an alternative SEND provider called Player Ready Truro, which works with neurodivergent children; they blossom when they can do the things they love with tuition. It prepares them to go back into school and it builds their confidence. Would the Minister consider looking again at progress 8, because it does not contain an arts subject? We should definitely consider that. We must review the national curriculum so that the arts are in the prominent place that they should be.
Last, but definitely not least, I call Jim Shannon. I intend to call the Front-Bench spokespeople at 5.10 pm.
I first say this, Mr Mundell: you have done the long yards this afternoon—three debates. I do not know whether that gets you overtime or what, but well done.
I commend the hon. Member for Chichester (Jess Brown-Fuller) on setting the scene so well. This is her first Westminster Hall debate and, on the basis of this example, I think it will be the first of many, so I wish her well.
The creative arts across the United Kingdom are something to be proud of. We have a fantastic range of arts and lots of enthusiastic people who make them what they are. I always love to take part in these debates to showcase the talent of Northern Ireland and, more importantly, my constituency of Strangford.
The hon. Member for Stroud (Dr Opher) referred to playing the flute—how we love to play the flute in Northern Ireland. In Northern Ireland, playing the flute is like riding a bike, by the way: nearly everybody learns to play. There might be a reason for that, of course.
I have not brought my flute. I could whistle a tune, but I will not.
I always like to talk about something we have done in Northern Ireland. In late 2022—I know the Minister will be pleased to hear this, as an example of what can be done—the Arts Council of Northern Ireland, the Education Authority and the Urban Villages initiative announced funding for the continuation of the creative schools programme in 11 secondary schools, which was fantastic news for the education system across Northern Ireland.
The hon. Member for East Thanet (Ms Billington) referred to the importance of the arts. The arts are a vocation and many people need to recognise that. There are so many young people out there who see themselves going into the arts, film or the creative industries, so funding for our local schools through the Urban Villages initiative is good news. I have spoken before in Westminster Hall and the Chamber of the amazing talent that Northern Ireland has to offer, specifically in the film industry. We have made leaps and bounds in the film sector over the years.
I will give another example. I noticed recently in my constituency and neighbouring constituencies that controlled or commissioned graffiti is becoming massively popular within the creative arts industry. In Newtownards, which I represent, an Ulster Farmers’ Union building has historically always been subject to criminal graffiti, but now it has been transformed through the creative arts, and it looks fantastic. I have also seen many streets, alleys and walls completely changed by graffiti, and the work that goes into that should be respected and admired. Northern Ireland probably has a lot more graffiti than most, but we realised what could be done creatively with graffiti. At last, that is an indication of where we can go.
The creative schools programme initially launched as a pilot scheme in 2017 and so far 1,000 young boys and girls—men and women—have benefited from it. That is a fantastic number of people destined for stardom and progress. The programme places a focus on improving educational outcomes for children across a wide range of artistic sectors. It is not the Minister’s responsibility, but it is crucial that we continue to fund it in Northern Ireland, so that we truly give young people the opportunity to showcase the amazing talent that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has to offer.
I call Munira Wilson, the Liberal Democrat spokesman, for five minutes.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. I start by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Jess Brown-Fuller) on securing this important debate, and I have enjoyed learning a lot about her illustrious background. I cannot claim to be anywhere near as accomplished as she is, but I used to love doing amateur dramatics at school and university, so I can see a Lib Dem drama club emerging at some point soon. Anyway, I will now move on to the serious part of the speech.
The Beatles, Damien Hirst, Amy Winehouse, Anthony Hopkins, Judi Dench and Vivienne Westwood are just a few examples of the brilliant artists who our country has produced over the past century. Our creative industries are renowned throughout the world and, as we have already heard, they contribute enormously to our economy, employing more than 2.3 million people every year.
It is vital that we preserve and grow our arts, which starts with promoting creative education in our schools. As we have already heard, the benefits of creative education are numerous, from developing a lifelong passion to helping children and young people with their mental health and equipping them with important life skills.
Sadly, however, creative education has not been treated with the priority it deserves and teaching in schools has suffered as a result. There are now 15,000 fewer full and part-time teachers of arts subjects in schools than in 2010. With fewer specialised teaching staff and increasingly constrained budgets, we have seen a drop in the number of children taking arts subjects, with enrolment at GCSE level falling by almost a half and at A-level by a third between 2010 and 2023. That means too many children are missing out on the opportunity to broaden their horizons and learn new skills.
At the heart of this issue is the fact that the arts have wrongly been labelled as unimportant and trivial. As a result, in the context of overstretched budgets and limited resources, arts subjects are the first to be cut back, with schools increasingly focusing on their core curriculum offer and extracurricular activities in the arts having to be scaled back.
The Liberal Democrats believe that our children’s education should be rounded and varied. Too often, Conservatives think that creative education is the sacrifice we must make for strong academic standards, but it should not be an either/or situation—it is always both/and. There is plenty of evidence to indicate that there is a link between participation in the arts and higher attainment. I hope that the Government’s ongoing curriculum review and the upcoming reform of Ofsted inspections ensures that all students can access a broad curriculum, including art, music and drama subjects, alongside a strong focus on high academic standards in other subjects.
As the hon. Member for East Thanet (Ms Billington) pointed out, the growing lack of arts provision in our schools, colleges and universities has widened inequalities between disadvantaged students and their peers. It is often only more privileged families who can afford private tuition, extra classes outside school or an independent education, because, as we have heard, the facilities of independent schools are often second to none in terms of the creative arts, thus disadvantaging children from lower socioeconomic backgrounds.
That has a direct impact on who goes on to work in the creative industries, with data showing that there are four times as many individuals from middle-class backgrounds in creative occupations as there are from working-class backgrounds. The arts should not be accessible only to the most privileged. If we want to harness the full talent of our children and young people to ensure that we continue to make the creative industries a powerhouse for our economy, we need to widen opportunities to the arts at every level.
It is not only schools that have seen the take-up of arts subjects plummet but further and higher education institutions. According to the Creative Industries Policy and Evidence Centre, over the past decade there has been a 57% drop in the uptake of creative courses in further and higher education. As we have heard, the exclusion of arts subjects from the English baccalaureate and cuts to funding for creative arts subjects at university by the previous Conservative Government have fuelled this decline.
That is why the Liberal Democrats would like to see arts subjects being included in the English baccalaureate to boost access to the arts. We also need to stop talking down and defunding creative arts degrees and vocational courses, and to drive up high-quality apprenticeships in this area.
Let us be proud of our world-leading institutions. Earlier this year, I visited Wimbledon College of Arts with my hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Mr Kohler), and I saw the amazing work that its students do in costume and set design, puppetry and performance. The college is part of the University of the Arts London, which is second in the world for art and design; we should celebrate that. In my own backyard, I went to the Rambert School of Ballet and Contemporary Dance in Twickenham last week, where the students put on the most incredible show. I know that many of them will go on to be talented performers in their own right.
The creative arts enable all of us to lead a fulfilling life, and they are also one of our country’s finest and most recognisable exports. Let us give our children and young people the opportunity to flourish fully, and let us develop a pipeline of talent into our arts sector to ensure that children and young people get the widest opportunity possible at school, college, university and beyond.
I call the shadow Minister to speak; you have five minutes.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. I congratulate the hon. Member for Chichester (Jess Brown-Fuller) on securing this debate, which, as well as being hugely informative and important, has been a pleasure to listen to. It has given us the exciting prospect of the Liberal Democrat drama club, which—given the exciting predilection of their leader, the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Ed Davey), for doing his own stunts—holds all kinds of potential. The idea of a flautist-off between the hon. Members for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and for Stroud (Dr Opher) is another exciting prospect.
We have heard thoughtful and important speeches from the hon. Members for Reading Central (Matt Rodda), for East Thanet (Ms Billington), for Southgate and Wood Green (Bambos Charalambous), for Chatham and Aylesford (Tristan Osborne), for Halesowen (Alex Ballinger), for Truro and Falmouth (Jayne Kirkham), and for Strangford. It has been an interesting debate.
This will be the last education debate of 2024—barring any surprises from the Minister tomorrow—so I want to thank all the hard-working teachers for their efforts over the year. When I meet teachers, as I have been over the last couple of days, I often find that they are quite tired at this time of year. For primary school teachers, the creative activity around the nativity is the thing that finally finishes them off and leaves them ready for Christmas. I end the year in the spirit of good will, and particularly thank our hard-working teachers.
In order to facilitate an answer that the Minister may wish to get from her officials, I will start by asking about a very specific thing: the music and dance scheme. On 21 November, the Secretary of State wrote to the former Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds), to say that the Government were going to extend transitional support for that scheme: “From 1 January 2025, for families with relevant income below £45,000, my Department will ensure their total fee contributions will remain unchanged for the rest of the academic year.” In a sense, that is a pause or a stay of execution. When will the Minister make a decision on the future of that really good arts scheme, so that there can be certainty beyond the end of the academic year? Will she continue to hold down fees for those who benefit from it for the next year? Will she also commit to maintain a related project, the Choir Schools’ Association scholarship scheme? I enter those specific things into the debate at this point so that the Minister has a chance to respond.
Let me now turn to the wider debate. We have talked about some of the things the last Government did, such as music hubs, which I think are widely welcomed, but—without wishing to move away from the spirit of good will and Christmas towards being the dog in the manger—of course the issue is always time. Our hard-working teachers are already working flat out. In theory and principle, I love the idea advanced by the Liberal Democrat Front Bench that it should not be an either/or, but unfortunately there are only a certain number of hours in the school day.
Now, if the Minister gets a wonderfully huge sum of money from the Treasury and manages to expand the school day so that we can do all those additional things, that is wonderful—I will be the first to welcome that—but our teachers and schools face some inescapable trade-offs. As the Minister will know by now, every week there are on average four calls from different groups for something new to be put on to the national curriculum or to get more time in our schools, but they cannot all have more time.
My only caveat to what Members have said today is the idea that there are creative and non-creative subjects. Some spoke about STEAM, which is a better concept, because the sciences and all those other things are creative subjects too. After a fall from 83% to 70% of pupils getting double or triple science between 2006 and 2011, it is a good thing that those subjects have rebounded to 98%. We have to be honest about what the trade-offs are. If we want to do more of one thing, we have to be clear and honest with people about what we are going to do less of—unless there is some sudden money gusher.
I am interested in the idea that there is a limited amount of time in the state school curriculum, but there does not seem to be a limited amount of time for creative education in private schools. If it is important for private schools, then it is important for state educated children, so why can we not find the time for it?
With respect, I am all ears, and it will be for the Government to say where they will find the time for those things. In principle, I have no objection, but I do not believe that the hon. Lady thinks that there is an unlimited amount of time in the school day, or that our teachers can all do endlessly more work. Of course that is not the case—no one believes that; there are choices here.
If I can return to the spirit of good will and Christmas, I want to commend something good that the Government have published: the evidence pack published alongside the curriculum and assessment review. It is a good piece of work that brings some nuance to the debate that is not always there. It shows that, although the numbers doing GCSE are somewhat down for some art subjects, the numbers doing other types of qualifications are going up at the same time. A lot of the bigger changes are nothing to do with art subjects whatsoever. We see less time spent on ICT in schools and more time spent on English, maths and science. I commend to hon. Members that very good piece of work by the Government; I strongly endorse the nuance that it brings. We all want to see more of these wonderful things happening in our schools, but I also beg that everyone is honest about the trade-offs involved.
Minister, I would grateful if you left a few moments at the end so that Jess Brown-Fuller can respond to the debate.
I will endeavour to do so, Mr Mundell. I am pleased to be speaking in this debate, which, as has already been said, is probably the last education debate this year—what a lovely subject for the final one. I extend my congratulations to the hon. Member for Chichester (Jess Brown-Fuller) on securing it. It was excellent to hear so much about her performing arts background—from teaching to advocating here; she obviously still enjoys it.
I am sure many of us are enjoying creativity during this festive season—maybe hon. Members have been to a pantomime or two, although I am not encouraging anyone to do one here. I look forward to seeing “Sleeping Beauty” in my constituency, and I am sure that many Members who have spoken about the theatres, creative arts and creative places in their areas are enjoying visiting them and partaking in the activity as well. It was excellent and lovely to hear about the many things that colleagues have mentioned, although of course we also heard about the many challenges and the changes that are needed. Hon. Members said that we need to go further, and I know that they will hold the Government to account on our mission statements and reforms.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for East Thanet (Ms Billington) for her contribution, particularly about Sammy’s Foundation, and about the need to ensure that the creative arts are there for people with SEND and those who are neurodiverse.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Southgate and Wood Green (Bambos Charalambous) for speaking about music hubs and the need to review provision for arts and creativity.
My hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Dr Opher) talked about the need to campaign. I very much agree that creativity and the arts help with children’s emotional health and wellbeing—I will be speaking about that later—but it was also lovely to hear that it helps with maths. Why wouldn’t we want to hear that? It is absolutely brilliant.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tristan Osborne) for talking about not only the worrying decline in the arts but the need to inspire generations to come.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen (Alex Ballinger) for raising concerns about declining GCSE uptake, and for talking about hubs.
My hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Jayne Kirkham) talked about the missions and growth, as well as SMEs.
It was lovely to hear the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) speak about many things, including how the art of graffiti can make real and positive changes.
The hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) spoke about many relevant things, as she often does, including the need to ensure that the curriculum is rounded, varied and broad—I could not agree more. I am sure that we are all advocating for more fun in our children’s studies and the encouragement of their creative abilities. Learning can be fun, and we hope that it is in our schools.
I am pleased with the many contributions that have been made, and I will endeavour to respond to them in the time I have, but I encourage Members to make contact with me if they feel they have not been answered. The Government recognise the immense value of creative subjects for every child and young person, extending far beyond career aspirations in the creative industries. Creative subjects support a child’s ability to express themselves, help their confidence and support their emotional wellbeing, and there are benefits in many other areas.
Creative subjects, like the arts, music, drama and many others, are significant elements of the rounded and enriching education that the Government want every child to receive. That is why creative subjects are part of the national curriculum for all maintained schools from the age of five to 14—and beyond for drama. Academies, too, are expected to teach these subjects as part of their statutory requirement to foster pupils’ cultural development. Indeed, many schools currently teach creative subjects as part of the curriculum and do so with great success, which enables children and young people to engage with subjects like music beyond the school day. The Government’s goal is to ensure that no child is deprived of the enriching experience that creative education provides. We aim to ensure a consistent approach across all schools.
The Government’s mission is to break down the barriers to opportunities that hold back many of our young people. We know that this will take time, but we are committed to taking the right steps to make it a reality. A crucial step in realising our vision is to ensure that our national curriculum strikes the right balance. It must embody ambition, excellence, relevance, flexibility and inclusivity. That is why in July we launched an independent curriculum and assessment review for ages five to 18, chaired by Professor Becky Francis CBE.
The review will seek to deliver a broader curriculum, with improved access to music, art, sports, drama and vocational subjects. It will look closely at the key challenges to attainment for young people and the barriers that hold children back from the opportunities that they should be able to access. This is an important process, and the recommendations put forward by Professor Becky Francis and her expert-led panel will be published in 2025. Many Members have mentioned that crucial review.
We recognise that although potential is widespread, opportunities are not. That disparity has held many young people back from fulfilling their true potential. To ensure that music education is fully inclusive, including for those with special educational needs and disabilities in both mainstream and special schools, music hubs are required to have an inclusion lead and to develop an inclusion strategy. Furthermore, the Government will launch a new national music education network. This initiative will help families, children and schools access broader opportunities and support.
I really do not have time, I am afraid.
Through the opportunity mission, we will work to break the link between young people’s background and their future success. Our focus is on supporting the most vulnerable and disadvantaged children, and we will continue to take steps to ensure that opportunity is not restricted by a young person’s location or background.
Our goal is to help families continue to support their children in accessing specialist music and dance courses, so we have made changes to the music and dance scheme for this transitional academic year. From January 2025, we will ensure that families with below average incomes receive additional support to prevent any increases in parental contributions due to the VAT change. This adjustment will benefit around half the families with a music and dance scheme bursary for their child.
I would like to give the hon. Member for Chichester some time to respond, so I will end on that note. I thank all Members for their contributions, and I wish everyone a very merry Christmas.
I thank hon. Members, the shadow Minister and the Minister for talking about the importance of creative arts education and how it will foster the next generation of well-rounded and emotionally intelligent young people, who can thrive.
Motion lapsed, and sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order No. 10(14)).
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Written Statements(1 week, 1 day ago)
Written StatementsGrowth is the No. 1 mission of this Government. Central to growing our economy and ensuring working people in every community feel the benefits of that growth, is an expansion of free trade agreements with strategic partners.
The Secretary of State for Business and Trade announced the Government’s intention to deliver the UK’s FTA negotiations programme in July. Negotiations with the Gulf Co-operation Council resumed on 24 September. Since then, the UK has held ongoing virtual and in-person negotiations. This included a GCC delegation visiting London during the week of 21 October and a UK delegation visiting Riyadh during the week of 11 November.
To progress negotiations, I had productive discussions with counterparts in Saudi Arabia while attending the 2024 future investment initiative in Riyadh. This was ahead of the Secretary of State for Business and Trade’s visit to Qatar later in the week to attend the GCC Trade Ministers’ meeting on 31 October. This event provided a good opportunity to discuss key issues with Ministers from all member states and the shared ambition to move negotiations forward at pace.
Talks throughout the autumn have continued to be constructive, with good momentum from the GCC, which has enabled further treaty text to be agreed. The focus from both sides is on achieving a modern and commercially meaningful agreement.
A mutually beneficial FTA between the UK and the GCC will deliver economic growth, higher wages and new investment. A deal will deliver targeted growth that could increase bilateral trade by 16%, potentially adding an extra £8.6 billion a year to trade between the UK and GCC countries in the long run. This £8.6 billion is on top of the £57.4 billion worth of trade that we already have.
The negotiation is progressing at pace and good progress is being made in the following areas:
Services, investment and digital
Detailed technical discussions have been held across these areas, narrowing down outstanding issues in the text and setting out expectations for market access schedules. Constructive discussions have been had around mobility to better support the movement of business persons between the UK and the GCC. Investment remains a key area of interest for both sides, recognising the levels of inward and outward investment between the UK and GCC countries. A digital chapter, alongside provisions relating to innovation, reflect the shared ambition for a future facing deal, that can respond to the changes that technology will continue to bring to the global economy.
Goods
The aim of negotiators’ discussions on goods market access is achieving commercially meaningful outcomes. This is an important area for both sides, and we continue to press for further progress on key UK interests and look forward to building on these discussions in the coming weeks. We also made good progress in technical discussions on rules of origin and trade remedies and are working constructively with the GCC to narrow down outstanding issues in the text.
Other areas of note
Negotiators continued to have constructive discussions on areas of sustainable trade, including environment and labour, as well as making further progress through negotiations on disputes and transparency.
I value the important role that Parliament plays in the scrutiny of the Government’s ambitious trade agenda. We will continue to ensure that Parliament is appropriately updated while also ensuring we protect our negotiating position.
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Written StatementsLast month, people came together all over the United Kingdom, to honour all the members of our armed forces who have made the ultimate sacrifice for our security and freedoms. In this significant year of remembrance anniversaries, the Remembrance Sunday service at the Cenotaph was also notable for an historic first. This year was the first time our veterans of the Afghanistan campaign marched past the Cenotaph together as a distinct unit; a solemn acknowledgement of the sacrifice and bravery of their colleagues during the operation, and in the rebuilding process which followed. Tragically, 454 of their colleagues did not have the option of joining them. I pay tribute to the commitment and courage of all those who served our country in Afghanistan.
Alongside British personnel, many Afghans also worked with commitment and courage to support the UK mission in Afghanistan. This includes members of Afghan specialist units, commonly known as the Triples, who fought valiantly alongside UK personnel, with some giving their lives and others suffering life-changing injuries. As set out by the Government in October, key issues have been identified and resolved through the Triples review, with eligible former Triples and their families being invited to relocate to the UK. We are expecting an overturn rate of approximately 25% on a cohort of applications that were previously considered ineligible.
This Government are fully committed to delivering on the pledge made by Parliament to those in Afghanistan who are eligible to relocate and resettle, and we continue to welcome eligible Afghans and their families to the UK through our Afghan resettlement schemes. We would like to express our gratitude to the Government of Pakistan for their co-operation as we have done this.
Whilst we recognise that resettlement is a complicated endeavour, we believe there is room for improvement in how we deliver for eligible Afghans and the communities in which they are being resettled, and ensure value for money for the taxpayer. At present, arrivals through different schemes are subject to differing and complex funding and support offers. This is why we are fixing the foundations of a complicated system and drawing together a single pipeline for Afghan resettlement, to deliver greater efficiency and better outcomes across Government.
By reforming our internal organisation across Government, we will bring to bear the collective expertise within the Home Office, the Ministry for Housing, Communities and Local Government, the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office and the Ministry of Defence and ensure the best possible outcomes at each stage of the resettlement journey. It is only by empowering the Departments to play to their strengths that we will ensure optimal services and value for money are provided overall.
The best resettlement delivers successful integration and supports arrivals to rebuild their lives in their new home. That is why, from the spring, we will be limiting the time that arrivals spend in transitional accommodation to nine months. Transitional accommodation—provided by the Ministry of Defence—will continue to be a mixture of serviced accommodation, and hotels, alongside reduced use of the defence estate. It is a vital part of our support offer to Afghan arrivals, allowing them to orient themselves and set themselves up for success for their new lives in the UK.
All Afghan arrivals will be supported to source their own settled accommodation through the find-your-own accommodation (FYO) pathway. In recognition of the pressures on housing supply and the unique challenges facing this cohort, the Government commit to continuing to fund and support a pipeline of settled housing to support around half these arrivals, who are the hardest to house. This will be through additional capital funding, community sponsorship and some service family accommodation. This will ensure that there is a pipeline of settled accommodation to support delivery of the Afghan resettlement programme.
Local authority and devolved Government colleagues are essential to make this vision a reality. Building on ongoing engagement, we will be meeting with representatives of local government and strategic migration partnerships early in the new year to embark on a specific process of co-design and delivery of immediate programme developments. It is their experience of resettlement and their continued calls for simplification which have informed this programme, and we look forward to working closely with them in its development.
We want to thank local authorities and communities for their continued support of this endeavour, which has been instrumental to both the successful operation of our transitional accommodation sites and for supporting moves into settled accommodation. In order for them to continue to deliver this vital work, we will continue to robustly test planning assumptions.
Over the past 12 months, we have welcomed around 90 eligible families each month and we expect this pace to continue. This cannot, however, be an endless process and ultimately, the Government intend to reach a position where the UK Afghan resettlement schemes can be closed. We will update the House on this accordingly.
We are grateful for the cross-Government commitment and approach to delivery on this important programme and will provide further updates in the new year. We will continue to work to deliver on our commitment to resettle those eligible Afghans who have supported the UK, and to whom we owe a debt of gratitude.
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Written StatementsI have today laid before Parliament the 13th armed forces annual covenant report. The 2024 report covers October 2023 to September 2024, and showcases the work that has been achieved throughout the UK in support of our armed forces community.
Thank you to all my colleagues for their Department’s contributions and continued support to strengthen the armed forces covenant.
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Written StatementsToday the Department for Education has published local authorities’ allocations through the dedicated schools grant (DSG) for schools, high needs and early years for 2025-26.
Overall, core schools funding is increasing by £2.3 billion in 2025-26 compared to 2024-25. This means that overall core school funding will total almost £63.9 billion next year, including a £1 billion increase in high needs funding for the costs of complex SEND. The publications today confirm the funding increases that each local authority will see in 2025-26.
The DSG allocations to local authorities consist of four blocks: a schools block, a high needs block, an early years block, and a central school services block. The DSG allocations are calculated from the latest pupil numbers, and therefore update the provisional national funding formulae allocations that were recently published.
Nationally, mainstream school funding in the DSG is increasing by 2.15% per pupil in 2025-26, compared to 2024-25, bringing total funding through this block of the DSG to £48.7 billion. This includes funding to ensure that the 2024 pay awards are fully funded at a national level in 2025-26, and further increases in the schools national funding formula on top of this.
High needs funding will increase to £11.9 billion in 2025-26, a 9% cash increase compared to this year. The vast majority of this will be allocated to local authorities through the high needs block of DSG. Every local authority will receive an increase in funding of at least 7% per head, of their population aged 2 to 18, with some local authorities seeing increases of up to 10%.
Alongside their DSG allocations, local authorities will also receive a separate core schools budget grant in 2025-26 to pass on to special schools and alternative provision to continue helping with the costs of teachers’ pay and pension increases, and other staff pay increases, from 2024. This grant consolidates the separate grants for pay and pensions that are allocated for these settings in 2024-25. Further detail on the grant for 2025-26 is published at the following link:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/core-schools-budget-grant-csbg-2025-to-2026-for-special-schools-and-alternative-provision
Indicative allocations for the 2025-26 early years entitlements, totalling more than £8 billion, have been published. On top of over £8 billion through the core funding rates, we are providing an additional £75 million grant for 2025-26 to support the sector in this pivotal year to grow the places and the workforce needed to deliver the final phase of expanded childcare entitlements from September 2025.
The dedicated schools grant allocations are available at:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/dedicated-schools-grant-dsg-2025-to-2026
Pupil premium rates will be announced shortly in the new year.
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Written StatementsToday I am updating the House on how this Government have delivered a step change in the use of our sanctions regimes to tackle malign activity and protect the UK’s national security interests domestically and internationally.
Sanctions are a powerful foreign and security policy tool, and this Government are committed to maximising their impact. Since the election, we have ramped up our collaboration with partners, particularly the US and the EU, to co-ordinate our action and to tackle circumvention.
UK sanctions are targeted, proportionate and robust, within a fair and transparent framework. Our approach has been repeatedly endorsed by the courts.
New sanctions to deter and disrupt malign actors
We have taken ambitious action to deploy new UK sanctions in innovative ways to deliver maximum impact. Since July, we have:
led the way in targeting Russia’s shadow fleet—the UK has targeted more ships than any other actor and has successfully encouraged partners to support our efforts;
delivered the largest single package of Russia sanctions, designed to disrupt Russia’s military industrial complex, since May 2023;
used our sanctions to deter and disrupt Iran’s military support to Russia;
called out the perpetrators of the Russian state’s forcible deportation of Ukrainian children;
clamped down on Russian cyber-criminals who have targeted UK schools and hospitals;
launched a cross-Government review of sanctions enforcement;
legislated to strengthen our sanctions enforcement powers, with the formal launch of the new Office of Trade Sanctions Implementation.
Russia sanctions
We have taken clear action to bear down on Russia’s sources of revenue, including energy revenues.
In July, the Prime Minister led a call to action at the European Political Community summit to tackle Russia’s shadow fleet. This has been endorsed by over 40 countries and by the EU. Russia has invested at least $10 billion into its shadow fleet and sanctions have plunged it into crisis. Since July, this Government have targeted 69 new oil tankers, nine liquefied natural gas carriers and six vessels involved in the transport of military goods. Many UK-sanctioned vessels have been left idling or at anchor, unable to continue their trade in Russian oil and depriving Russia of funds to wage its illegal war.
In November, we launched the largest package of sanctions against Russia in 18 months, disrupting the supply of western-sanctioned goods to the Russian military-industrial complex. This included individuals and entities in third countries. We are also targeting private military security companies, and, in November, the UK was the first G7 country to sanction Russian-backed mercenary group, Africa Corps.
The impact of our sanctions is clear. Sanctions have deprived Russia of over $400 billion since February 2022, reducing Putin’s war chest and forcing him to turn to North Korea and Iran for supplies.
Sanctions are putting grit in Russian military supply chains, increasing costs and delays and reducing equipment quality. The Russian defence sector has seen the cost of components rise by 30% and sanctions have prevented Russia from expanding military supplies to the battlefield.
On the financial side, 70% of Russian importers and 30% of Russian exporters now have to rely on specialised agents to settle payments with foreign partners, increasing the effective price of imports to Russia by 6% to 30%
The Russian Government have also had to undertake the first major tax hike in over 20 years. Interest rates are at 21%, there is runaway inflation, and the rouble has plummeted. Russia’s future energy ambitions are in tatters, and we are seeing increasingly vocal disagreements between Russian officials and industrialists.
Tackling corruption and illicit finance
Last month, we launched a campaign against illicit finance, raising our ambition and backing words with action. We sanctioned kleptocrats who have stashed stolen wealth in Britain and those who aid and abet them. Figures like Dmitry and Lada Firtash who have extracted hundreds of millions of pounds from Ukraine, or Isabel dos Santos who systematically abused her positions at Angolan state-run companies. On 9 December we took aim at the illicit gold trade, targeting five gold smugglers in co-ordination with the US, including three UK nationals. This Government will continue to use our sanctions powers to make the UK a more hostile environment for corrupt actors and to develop our sanctions regimes to address changing threats.
Iran
Sanctions are also important to confronting the threat posed by Iran, including its support for Russia. In September, we introduced new sanctions to disrupt Iran’s unmanned aerial vehicle and missile industries in response to Iran’s transfer of ballistic missiles to Russia for use against Ukraine. In October, following further Iranian attacks on Israel, we sanctioned senior Iranian military figures and organisations, including the Iranian Space Agency for their role in destabilising the middle east. This was followed in November by sanctions on Iran’s national airline, Iran Air, and its state-owned national shipping carrier, the Islamic Republic of Iran Shipping Lines, in line with the commitments outlined by the E3 in September. These sanctions will further restrict Iran’s direct scheduled commercial air services to and from the UK.
Cyber-sanctions
Our sanctions also directly support UK security. On 1 October, in co-ordination with international partners, we designated 16 individuals associated with Russia-based ransomware group Evil Corp, which has links to the Russian state and has sought to compromise UK health, Government and public sector institutions. This sends a clear message that the UK is prepared to stand up to cyber-threats.
Upholding human rights and promoting democracy
This Government have also taken sanctions action to uphold human rights. Following an unprecedented rise in settler violence in the west bank, we designated three settler outposts and four organisations that have supported, incited and promoted violence against Palestinian communities in the west bank.
We have also used sanctions to promote democracy. In September 2024, following Russia’s veto of the renewal of the UN sanctions regime on Mali, we legislated to enable the UK to sanction persons who obstruct Mali’s return to constitutional, civilian rule or who undermine the rule of law in Mali.
On 29 October, along with the EU and Canada, we also announced sanctions to increase pressure on the military regime in Myanmar and its associates. These sanctions target entities supplying aviation fuel and equipment to the Myanmar military and signal our clear opposition to the coup with the aim of undermining the regime’s credibility.
The UK strongly supports the use of UN sanctions to promote international peace and given the global signal they send and their reach across all 193 UN member states. On 8 November, the UN Security Council sanctioned two individuals involved in ethnically motivated atrocities in Sudan. This is part of wider efforts to apply pressure on conflict parties to stop fighting, allow humanitarian access and bring about a political transition as called for by the people of Sudan.
Co-ordination across the sanctions coalition
We co-ordinate with like-minded partners to disrupt, deter and respond to shared threats. We have repeatedly emphasised, alongside our G7 partners, that Russia must pay for the damage it has caused to Ukraine. On 22 October, the Chancellor announced that the UK will provide £2.26 billion in further support to Ukraine, as part of the G7 extraordinary revenue acceleration loans to Ukraine scheme. This is earmarked for military spending, further bolstering Ukraine’s ability to defend itself against Russia’s illegal war. The UK’s contribution will be repaid using the extraordinary profits generated on immobilised Russian sovereign assets held primarily in the EU.
Tackling Russia’s efforts to circumvent our sanctions remains a key strategic UK objective and a shared G7 commitment. Together with our G7 partners, particularly the US and EU, we continue to co-ordinate to tackle circumvention risks across priority countries in central Asia, the middle east, and the Caucasus. I have personally underscored the importance of tackling sanctions circumvention in my recent meetings with the Deputy Foreign Ministers of Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan. Diplomatic outreach at all levels has led to all these priority countries introducing Russia-facing controls on common high priority goods and a reduction in supply to Russia.
One-off engagement however is not enough. My officials, together with their EU and US counterparts, including during joint visits, are engaging with countries of concern and have secured commitments to control the re-export of the most sensitive goods, though we need to keep up the pressure. To underpin our commitment to tackling circumvention, the UK Government have deployed regional sanctions co-ordinators throughout our priority regions to provide leadership and expertise in our global network and to co-ordinate action across like-minded international partners in-country. We have complemented this with capacity-building programmes and technical assistance. The Prime Minister’s announcement last week highlights that approach in relation to the Republic of Cyprus as it establishes its new national sanctions implementation unit.
We are also playing a leading role in regional fora. The UK leadership in tackling the shadow fleet has seen our inclusion in the Nordic-Baltic forum alongside Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Germany, Iceland, Latvia, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland and Sweden. This forum is confronting the risks posed by the shadow fleet, especially in the environmentally sensitive waters of the Baltic sea and the North sea and is exploring new possibilities for common measures against the shadow fleet within the framework of international law.
Strengthening sanctions enforcement across Government
This Government continue to work with industry to maximise compliance with our sanctions, but we are clear that failures to comply should be met with the full force of the law. Punishments include seizures at the UK border and, for the most serious breaches, large fines or criminal prosecution.
A range of Departments have responsibility for the enforcement of UK sanctions, including the Home Office, Department for Business and Trade, Department for Transport and HM Treasury. In October, we introduced new sanctions enforcement powers for the Department for Business and Trade and the Department for Transport, including the power to impose civil monetary penalties for breaches of the UK’s aircraft, shipping and certain trade sanctions. These powers also introduced new reporting requirements for suspected breaches and give us the option to name and shame sanctions offenders. These powers underpinned the launch of the new Office of Trade Sanctions Implementation.
The creation of OTSI will strengthen the implementation and enforcement of the UK’s trade sanctions. OTSI will work in partnership with HMRC in enforcing trade sanctions and its focus will include the movement of goods and services across third country borders to Russia or other sanctioned destinations. These third country powers are an important expansion of our toolkit in tackling sanctions evasion and circumvention.
We are committed to doing what is necessary to clamp down on sanctions offenders and the introduction of additional capacity and powers is starting to pay off. We are seeing this in the increase in reporting of suspected breaches, which we expect will result in further fines and referrals for prosecution.
Since February 2022, HMRC has issued six compound settlements against UK companies that have breached the Russia sanctions regulations for a total of £1,363,129, including one in August 2023 for £1 million and the latest in August 2024 for just over £58,000. On 27 September 2024, the Financial Conduct Authority fined Starling Bank Ltd £28,959,426 for financial crime failings related to its financial sanctions controls and screening. In September 2024, following a proactive investigation, the Office of Financial Sanctions Implementation issued a monetary penalty of £15,000 to Integral Concierge Services for breaches of financial sanctions imposed on Russia in response to its illegal invasion of Ukraine in 2022. ICSL did not challenge the penalty and paid in full. I want to see many more enforcement actions in the coming months to maximise the deterrent effect of our sanctions and hold people and institutions accountable.
I plan to go further to strengthen the UK’s sanctions system, and I have launched a cross-Government review of sanctions enforcement with the support of Ministers from HM Treasury, the Department for Business and Trade, the Department for Transport and the Home Office. In parallel, I have been speaking to the leaders of the overseas territories, including at the recent Joint Ministerial Council, where we agreed on the importance of strengthening sanctions implementation and enforcement across the entire British family. We are matching our commitment with action, including providing direct support to enhance sanctions enforcement capability in our overseas territories.
I will use the review to consider where we can go further and deeper to improve our sanctions system. I want us to look at how we can make our sanctions easier to comply with, how we can build our cross-Government capabilities to combat sanctions circumvention and how we can expand and improve our sanctions toolkit. I look forward to substantially enhancing enforcement efforts and reporting the outcomes to Parliament.
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Written StatementsToday, the unexplained wealth order report for the period 2023 to 2024, has been laid before Parliament. The unexplained wealth order report details the number of unexplained wealth orders made by the High Court in England and Wales during that period, and the number of applications made to that Court by enforcement authorities for such an order.
During this reporting period, two unexplained wealth orders were applied for. One was obtained and the other did not receive a judicial decision during the reporting period. One of the UWOs applied for in the 2022 to 2023 reporting period was also obtained in this reporting period.
Enforcement agencies remain committed to using the unexplained wealth order power where they see it is the best tool available to them. Not all cases merit an unexplained wealth order, and often the range of civil and criminal powers available to them to investigate, search for, and seize assets, better suit the circumstances of a given case. Large amounts of assets are being recovered. In the financial year 2023 to 2024, £62.9 million was recovered through civil recovery order receipts, the highest amount recovered in the last six years.
Enforcement agencies continue to review whether cases are suitable for a UWO.
Copies of the report will be available in the Vote Office, and it will also be published on gov.uk.
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Written StatementsToday, the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 appointed person report covering England and Wales for the period 2023 to 2024, has been laid before Parliament. The appointed person is independent of Government and scrutinises the circumstances and manner in which search and seizure powers conferred by the Act are exercised without prior judicial approval and where nothing is seized for more than 48 hours.
I am pleased that we are now able to publish the appointed person’s latest report. The report details that search and seizure powers were used in these circumstances on five occasions.
The appointed person has confirmed in the report that he is satisfied that the criteria required for justifying the searches without prior judicial approval were met and that the powers of search were exercised appropriately. The appointed person has made no new recommendations for the period. This would indicate that the powers are being used reasonably and appropriately in accordance with the Act. We will continue to monitor the way that the powers have been used closely.
Copies of the report will be available in the Vote Office, and it will also be published on gov.uk.
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Written StatementsToday, the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 costs protection report covering England and Wales, has been laid before Parliament. The report is a statutory requirement under section 215 of the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act 2023. The Government are required to review whether costs protection should be introduced for enforcement agencies in civil recovery proceedings under part 5 of POCA and publish a report by the end of the period of 12 months beginning with the day on which the Act was passed.
I am pleased that we are now able to publish the report. The report outlines the engagement exercise that took place to seek consultees views and the options considered for introducing potential changes. The report concludes that the Government see merit in introducing costs protection based on the consultation responses and are making progress to determine whether amendments to legislation should be made.
Copies of the report will be available in the Vote Office, and it will also be published on gov.uk.
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Written StatementsWe are facing a homelessness crisis across the country, with unprecedented levels of homelessness and a sharp increase in rough sleeping. There are a record 123,100 households living in temporary accommodation, including 159,380 children. The number of people sleeping rough on our streets is rising with almost 4,000 people sleeping rough on a single night in 2023. This did not happen overnight; it is the result of 14 years of neglect. This is the legacy this Government have inherited, and I am determined to address these failures head on, but it will take time to put right and get us back on track to ending homelessness and for good.
We are already tackling the root causes of homelessness. This Government will deliver the biggest increase in social and affordable housebuilding in a generation, and with the Renters Rights’ Bill we will abolish section 21 “no fault” evictions, preventing private renters being exploited and discriminated against, and empowering people to challenge unreasonable rent increases.
We are also taking action to support councils to deliver homelessness and rough sleeping services. In the autumn Budget, we announced that funding for homelessness services is increasing next year by £233 million compared to this year, 2024-25. This brings the total spend on homelessness and rough sleeping to nearly £1 billion in 2025-26, a record level of funding.
Today I am setting out how we will use that funding to deliver three important changes as the first steps in our long-term plan to tackle homelessness.
First, we must increase our focus on prevention and stopping households from becoming homeless in the first place. The current system is not working, and local authorities have been unable to invest in preventative interventions. This results in more households entering temporary accommodation, at great cost to the individuals and the council.
I am therefore providing an uplift of £192.9 million to the homelessness prevention grant, bringing total funding for 2025-26 to £633.2 million, the largest investment in this grant since it began. This will be allocated to all local authorities in England based on homelessness pressures. We will require at least 49% of this grant to be spent on activities to prevent and relieve homelessness, including associated staff costs, to help ensure this increase in funding is used to prevent families and single people from reaching crisis point.
Secondly, we must address the growing use of bed-and-breakfast (B&B) and nightly-let accommodation for homeless families. The number of families living in these types of emergency accommodation has nearly doubled in three years, with 4 in 10 homeless families living in B&B or nightly-let accommodation. Not only do these forms of accommodation provide limited stability for families and often lack basic facilities such as proper cooking facilities, they are also among the most expensive for councils. We must address this and ensure that where homelessness cannot be prevented, temporary accommodation provides safe, decent housing with as much stability for children as possible. I want to see the use of emergency accommodation for homeless families reduce and to eliminate the use of B&Bs for families other than in genuine emergencies.
As a first step to addressing this, my Department will work with 20 local authorities facing the most acute pressures for B&B use for temporary accommodation through a new programme of emergency accommodation reduction pilots, backed by £5 million to test innovative approaches and kick-start new initiatives. My Department’s team of homelessness experts will work in partnership with pilot local authorities to identify solutions which work for their local circumstances and share the learning across the country.
Thirdly, we must streamline funding structures, reduce bureaucracy and support councils to do what they do best: deliver services to meet the needs of their local communities. Our rough sleeping and single homelessness programmes, including our new streamlined rough sleeping prevention and recovery grant, will provide up to £280.75 million in funding in 2025-26, allocated to local authorities and their delivery partners across the country to help support them to continue vital services for some of the most vulnerable people in society. Our sector support grants will continue to support the skills and capacity of our valued voluntary sector partners. Our investment in prevention will stop people from rough sleeping in the first place, meaning local authorities will be able to target their rough sleeping resources at those who need help the most.
In addition, 15 local area partnerships across England will continue to be supported through the changing futures programme. We are providing £10 million in 2025-26 to improve support and outcomes for people experiencing multiple disadvantage.
This is only the first step to meeting our commitment to getting the country back on track to ending homelessness. We will continue to work across government to deliver the long-term solutions we need to get us back on track to ending all forms of homelessness, including developing a long-term homelessness strategy, which we will publish next year following the multi-year spending review.
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Written StatementsOur fiscal inheritance means that there will be tough choices to get us back on the path to recovery. Fixing the foundations of local government will be a long process following the 14 years of decline and instability overseen by the previous Government. But our programme of reorganisation and reform will lead to more efficient structures; will mean funding is sent to where it is needed the most; investment focusses on crisis prevention, rather than an expensive crisis response; and councils once again have the certainty and flexibility they need to focus on their priorities. Together, we will fix the foundations for everyone.
We are under no illusion about the scale of this task. The demand for, and cost of, services has increased significantly. The persistent failure of the previous Government to do the right thing, underlined by their decision to drop the long-overdue fair funding review, compounded by spiralling inflation and a failure to grow our economy, has left councils of all stripes in crisis. Our fiscal inheritance means that there is no easy route to solving this.
This 2025-26 local government finance settlement and our programme of reform for the future mark the first steps towards stabilising and rebuilding the financial sustainability of local government. We will take a more efficient approach to Government grant funding, including a one-off recovery grant to get councils back on their feet. And, in 2026-27, when we move to the first multi-year settlement for local government in a decade, we will ensure that grant funding goes to where it is needed the most: delivering better services by investing in prevention, and improving value for taxpayers’ money. Our consultation on local authority funding reform sets us on this path to recovery.
More secure finances must go hand in hand with higher standards and stronger financial decision making, both of which are impeded by the broken local audit system that we have inherited in England. Today we launched a strategy to streamline and simplify the local audit system through the establishment of a new and proportionate local audit office—combining the functions of the existing system—and ensuring that the core underpinnings are fit for purpose. We will embed transparency, restore our public financial early warning system, and ensure that every council is equipped to deliver the best value for council tax payers and business ratepayers. We will strengthen the local government standards system to support councils to deliver the high standards that they strive for. We welcome views on proposals to better support local government to uphold the highest standards of conduct and sanction misconduct whenever and wherever it occurs as part of our standards consultation. These steps are a crucial part of our plans for a stronger local government, as set out in the “English Devolution White Paper” this week.
Together, these reforms will begin to stabilise local government finances and ensure that all councils are fit, legal and decent, so they can better deliver for their residents. We will build on the significant steps we are already taking, laying the groundwork for children’s social care reform and increasing funding for homelessness and SEND services next year. We are giving councils more say over how they run local bus services, guaranteeing the future of vital reforms to our waste and recycling system, filling potholes, and bringing planning fees up to cost recovery. The hard work has already begun, and today we set out our detailed funding proposals for 2025-26 and our plan for the years ahead.
Provisional local government finance settlement 2025-26
The autumn Budget announced over £4 billion in additional funding for local government services, of which £1.3 billion would go through the 2025-26 local government finance settlement. We recognise the challenges that local authorities are facing as demand increases for critical services. Today we are announcing over £700 million of additional grant, which increases the total additional grant funding that will be made available to local councils in England through the settlement to over £2 billion. The over £700 million increase in funding announced today includes a £200 million increase to the social care grant, taking the grant’s total increase from 2024-25 to £880 million. It also includes £515 million of further funding, which will be made available at the final settlement to support councils with the increase in employer national insurance contributions.
The provisional settlement for 2025-26 therefore makes available £69 billion for local government, which is a 6% cash-terms increase and a 3.5% real-terms increase in councils’ core spending power on 2024-25. The final settlement will increase further, to incorporate the £515 million of funding announced for national insurance contributions.
Grant decisions for 2025-26
The proposals we announced on 28 November—a new £600 million recovery grant, a new children’s social care prevention grant, additional funding for social care, and repurposing the existing rural services delivery grant and the services grant—lay the foundations for fundamental reform by allocating new funding through improved formulas in 2025-26 and investing in priority services.
Social care
We will make available up to £3.7 billion extra funding for social care authorities through the settlement next year. In total, local government will receive over £10 billion in grant funding for social care, including: £1.05 billion in the market sustainability and improvement fund; £2.6 billion via the local authority better care grant; and £5.9 billion via the social care grant.
We can also today confirm that the new children’s social care prevention grant will be uplifted at the final settlement to £263 million. Taken together with the new children and families grant, the Government are doubling settlement investment in preventative services within children’s social care, to over half a billion in 2025-26, laying the groundwork for fundamental reform of children’s social care next year.
National insurance contributions (NICs)
In recognition of the decision to increase employer NICs, we can today confirm that the Government will provide £515 million to English local councils, including mayoral combined authorities and fire and rescue authorities, allocated based on an assessment of each council’s share of relevant net service expenditure. We have published a methodology note today to explain how this funding will be distributed across local authorities. Individual allocations will be published at the final settlement early next year.
Council tax
It is for local authorities to decide at what level they set their council tax. However, the Government are committed to keeping taxes on working people as low as possible. This settlement maintains the previous Government’s policy—as set out in the March 2024 Office for Budget Responsibility forecast—of setting a 5% council tax referendum principle, made up of a 3% core principle and the 2% principle for the adult social care precept. Voters will have the final say over excessive increases above this threshold.
The Government are committed to improving the presentation and transparency of council tax bills and will therefore require local authorities to adjust the presentation of the adult social care precept on council tax bills from 2025-26. This will simplify bills and provide clarity on council tax levels set by the local authorities. The Government will publish a consultation in 2025 to consider other options to improve transparency of council tax billing and support taxpayers to manage their household finances with a default option to pay over 12 months, as with most other household bills.
Requests for exceptional financial support
The Government have a framework to support councils in financial difficulty. This will be a collaborative and supportive process, and we have already confirmed that we will not replicate previous conditions that made borrowing more expensive. Similar to the approach taken by the previous Government, we will consider requests for bespoke referendum principles from councils seeking exceptional financial support. But this Government will put taxpayers and the impact on working people at the forefront of our decisions. Any requests from councils will be considered on a case-by-case basis, and the Government expect any additional increases to be agreed only in exceptional circumstances, not as a punishment where councils have failed. We will look carefully at councils’ specific circumstances—for example, their existing levels of council tax relative to the average and the strength of plans to protect vulnerable people. The Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government continues to offer any council a discussion, in confidence, about its ability to manage its budget.
Levy account
Every authority in England will receive a share of the accumulated surplus currently held in the business rates levy account. We can confirm that £100 million will be returned to the sector on a one-off basis, distributed in line with relevant legislation. Individual allocations of this funding will be published at the final settlement early next year.
Fixing the foundations: consultation on local authority funding reform
From 2026-27, the Government will fundamentally improve the way we fund councils, based on a new assessment of need and resources. These reforms will build on the framework set out in the previous Government’s abandoned review of relative needs and resources (originally, the fair funding review).
We will reset the business rates retention system, as was intended when the previous Government established the system. We will move gradually towards an updated system and will invite views on possible transitional arrangements to determine how local authorities reach their new funding allocations. Some local authorities work collaboratively with mayoral combined authorities in their area to ensure that extra business rates income is directed to local growth priorities across the wider region. In recognition of this, and as part of the Government’s reform of funding for local government, we will consider how the business rates retention system could better and more consistently support strategic authorities to drive growth. The Government will also reduce the number of funding pots to give councils more flexibility to focus on priority outcomes agreed with Government.
Today’s consultation is on objectives and principles. The consultation will give councils, sector organisations and the public the opportunity to contribute to the Government’s proposals. We will consider all representations to develop our understanding of the drivers of need, including the impact of rurality. This reform is about spending taxpayers’ money as efficiently as possible, but it is also about the impact it will have on real people’s lives and local authorities’ ability to deliver for their citizens.
Conclusion
The consultation on the provisional local government finance settlement 2025-26 will be open for four weeks, closing on 15 January 2025. The consultation on local authority funding reform will be open for eight weeks, closing 12 February 2025. We welcome views from the sector and beyond on each of these consultations.
This written ministerial statement covers England only.
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Written StatementsI am pleased to announce the review of the Youth Justice Board. This review is being conducted as part of the public bodies review programme, which aims to ensure that public bodies are operating effectively, and that their functions remain useful and necessary.
An efficient and effective youth justice system is essential for preventing crime and keeping communities safe. In line with our safer streets mission, it is vital that we have robust systems in place to stop young people being drawn into crime. Equally, we must support children who do find themselves in contact with the youth justice system to ensure they do not enter a cycle of crime which continues into adulthood.
The youth justice system is a complex one, requiring collaboration between many Departments, agencies and public and voluntary services. While there is much to celebrate, including a significant reduction in the number of children in custody in the last decade, it is right that we regularly review how our structures, system and agencies operate to ensure they are as effective and efficient as possible.
The YJB was set up to play a critical role in delivering positive outcomes for children in contact with the criminal justice system, and to provide oversight, assurance and technical expertise around the operation of the youth justice system. However, much time has passed since the last Cabinet Office review of the YJB in 2013. Since then, the youth justice landscape, and YJB itself, have changed significantly.
With that in mind, this review is an opportunity to consider whether the YJB’s statutory functions remain useful and necessary, where these functions should sit, and whether the YJB’s current delivery model remains appropriate. This review will also be key to assessing how the YJB and Department should work together to deliver ministerial priorities and deliver value for money.
This review will ensure that our current arrangements actively support the essential work undertaken by youth justice services and support the effective delivery of the Department’s priorities for youth justice and reducing reoffending.
I have appointed Steve Crocker, former president of the Association of Directors of Children’s Services, to lead on the review. He is independent from the Ministry of Justice and will provide objective analysis of the YJB and the Department. Steve Crocker will also lead a period of stakeholder engagement across England and Wales.
I will make a further announcement on completion of the review in spring 2025. Following this, I will set out the Government’s response.
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Written StatementsI am pleased to announce today that this Government are taking decisive steps to address long waiting times for car practical driving tests.
A driving licence is a passport to employment, opportunities and better living standards for hundreds of thousands of people each year.
Across the country, waiting times for a car practical driving test are at 13 weeks in Wales, over 15 weeks in Scotland, and nearly 21 weeks in England. These figures highlight a system under strain.
The proportion of 17 to 20-year-olds with a full driving licence dropped from 35% in 2019 to 29% in 2023. This matters, because one in six jobs require a driving licence. The top occupations for young drivers include roles critical to our public services and economic growth: healthcare workers, construction trades and transport workers.
Learner drivers should be able to take a test when they are ready to pass. Yet thousands have had to wait many months for a test, with some being exploited by businesses taking advantage of long waiting times or having to travel hundreds of miles in the process.
Between April 2023 and March 2024, the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency provided over 2 million car driving tests, and it has over half a million driving tests booked in the next 24 weeks.
In response to increased demand, the DVSA created an extra 145,000 test slots between October 2023 and March 2024 by redeploying eligible managers and administrative staff to conduct tests. The DVSA has also reviewed its recruitment process and increased its effort to recruit and train driving examiners. But the case for further action is undeniable.
So today, I am setting out the robust plan I have asked the DVSA to deliver to tackle this issue head-on, while it helps to keep Britain moving safely and sustainably.
First, we will recruit and train 450 driving examiners. This will aim to significantly increase the workforce and ensure that examiners are available in high-demand areas, reducing waiting times for learners across the country.
Secondly, we will increase the notice period for changing or cancelling a test without losing the fee from three to 10 working days. This will minimise last-minute disruptions and ensure that cancelled slots can be reallocated to those ready to take their test.
Thirdly, we will review and improve the rules around booking tests, including measures to ban the resale of driving test appointments. This will ensure fairer access to test slots and stop the profiteering that disadvantages learners.
Fourthly, we will strengthen terms and conditions for driver training businesses managing test bookings. This will improve the efficiency of the booking system, making it harder for those looking to exploit learner drivers to secure test dates.
Fifthly, we will consult on introducing longer waiting times to rebook a test for candidates who fail by making multiple serious or dangerous faults, abuse driving examiners or fail to attend their test, and we will consider a penalty fee for those who fail to attend. This will discourage bad behaviour and ensure that examiners’ time is respected.
Sixthly, we will explore allowing learner drivers to book tests further in advance than the current 24-week limit. This will give learners more certainty in planning their preparation and reduce the stress of finding available slots.
Finally, we will expand the successful “Ready to Pass?” campaign to help learners throughout the whole process of learning to drive. This will increase the likelihood of learners passing their test the first time, reducing overall demand on the system.
These measures are practical, targeted, and designed to address the issues facing the driving test system. But I have to be clear: there is no quick fix to the current situation. It will take time for us to tackle the root causes of this issue, fix the broken system this Government inherited and to build a robust system for the future.
I am also pleased to announce today the publication of the DVSA’s 2024 to 2025 business plan.
This plan sets out the main business priorities the agency will deliver, including measures on the delivery of the car practical driving test that underpin the measures I have just announced, as well as the key performance indicators by which the DVSA’s performance will be assessed.
This plan allows service users and members of the public to understand the DVSA’s plans for delivering its services and managing its finances.
The business plan will be available electronically on gov.uk and copies will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses.
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Grand CommitteeMy Lords, as usual, if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division Bells are rung and resume after 10 minutes.
Clause 90: Duties of the Commissioner in carrying out functions
My Lords, unusually, I rise to move an amendment, Amendment 138. For the second time in Committee, I find myself heading a group when I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, will be much better qualified to introduce the subject. Indeed, she has an amendment, Amendment 141, which is far preferable in many ways to mine.
Amendment 138 is designed to ensure that the Information Commissioner produces a code of practice specific to children up to the age of 18 for the purposes of UK law and Convention 108, and pupils as defined by the Education Act 1996, who may be up to the age of 19 or, with special educational needs, up to 25 in the education sector. The charity Data, Tech & Black Communities put it this way in a recent letter to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones:
“We recently completed a community research project examining the use of EdTech in Birmingham schools. This project brought us into contact with over 100 people … including parents, school staff and community members. A key finding was the need to make it easier for those with stewardship responsibility for children’s data, to fulfil this duty. Even with current data protection rights, parents and guardians struggle to make inquiries (of schools, EdTech companies and even DfE) about the purpose behind the collection of some of their children’s data, clarity about how it is used (or re-used) or how long data will be retained for. ‘Opting out’ on behalf of their children can be just as challenging. All of which militates against nuanced decision-making about how best to protect children’s short and long-term interests … This is why we are in support of an ICO Code of Practice for Educational Settings that would enable school staff, parents and learners, the EdTech industry and researchers to responsibly collect, share and make use of children’s data in ways that support the latter’s agency over their ‘digital selves’ and more importantly, will support their flourishing”.
The duties of settings and data processers and rights appropriate to the stage of education and children’s capacity needs clarity and consistency. Staff need confidence to access and use data appropriately within the law. As the UNCRC’s General Comment No. 16 (2013) on State Obligations Regarding the Impact of the Business Sector on Children’s Rights set out over a decade ago,
“the realization of children’s rights is not an automatic consequence of economic growth and business enterprises can also negatively impact children’s rights”.
The educational setting is different from only commercial interactions or in regard to the data subjects being children. It is more complex because of the disempowered environment and its imbalance of power between the authority, the parents and the child. The additional condition is the fact that parents’ and children’s rights are interlinked, as exemplified in the right to education described in UDHR Article 26(3), which states:
“Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.”
A code is needed because the explicit safeguards are missing that the GDPR requires in several places but were left out of the UK Data Protection Act 2018 drafting. Clause 80 of the Bill—“Automated decision-making”—does not address the necessary safeguards of GDPR Article 23(1) for children. Furthermore, removing the protections of the balancing test under the recognised legitimate interest condition will create new risks. Clauses on additional further processing or changes to purpose limitation are inappropriately wide without child-specific safeguards. The volume, sensitivity and intrusiveness of identifying personal data collection in educational settings only increases, while the protections are only ever reduced.
Obligations specific to children’s data, especially
“solely automated decision-making and profiling”
and exceptions, need to be consistent with clear safeguards by design where they restrict fundamental freedoms. What does that mean for children in practice, where teachers are assumed to be the rights bearers in loco parentis? The need for compliance with human rights, security, health and safety, among other standards proportionate to the risks of data processing and respecting the UK Government’s accessibility requirements, should be self-evident and adopted in a code of practice, as recommended in the five rights in the Digital Futures Commission’s blueprint for educational data governance.
The Council of Europe Strategy for the Rights of the Child (2022-2027) and the UNCRC General Comment No. 25 on Children’s Rights and the Digital Environment make it clear that
“children have the right to be heard and participate in decisions affecting them”.
They recognise that
“capacity matters, in accordance with their age and maturity. In particular attention should be paid to empowering children in vulnerable situations, such as children with disabilities.”
Paragraph 75 recognises that surveillance in educational settings should not take place without the right to object and that teachers need training to keep up with technological developments.
Participation of young people themselves has not been invited in the development of this Bill and the views of young people have not been considered. However, a small sample of parent and pupil voices has been captured in the Responsible Technology Adoption Unit’s public engagement work together with the DfE in 2024. The findings back those of Defend Digital Me’s Survation poll in 2018 and show that parents do not know that the DfE already holds named pupil records without their knowledge or permission and that the data is given away to be reused by hundreds of commercial companies, the DWP, the Home Office and the police. It stated:
“There was widespread consensus that work and data should not be used without parents’ and/or pupils’ explicit agreement. Parents, in particular, stressed the need for clear and comprehensive information about pupil work and data use and any potential risks relating to data security and privacy breaches.”
A code of practice is needed to explain the law and make it work as intended for everyone. The aims of a code of practice for educational settings would be that adherence to a code creates a mechanism for controllers and processors to demonstrate compliance with the legislation or approve certification methods. It would give providers confidence in consistent and clear standards and would be good for the edtech sector. It would allow children, parents, school staff and systems administrators to build trust in safe, fair and transparent practice so that their rights are freely met by design and default.
Further, schools give children’s personal data to many commercial companies during a child’s education—not based on consent but assumed for the performance of a task carried out in the public interest. A code should clarify any boundaries of this lawful basis for commercial purposes, where it is an obligation on parents to provide the data and what this means for the child on reaching maturity or after leaving the educational setting.
Again, a code should help companies understand “data protection by design and default” in practice, and appropriate “significant legal effect”, the edges of “public interest” in data transfers to a third country, and how special categories of data affect children in schools. A code should also support children and families in understanding the effect of the responsibilities of controllers and processes for the execution or limitation of their own rights. It would set out the responsibilities of software platforms that profile users’ metadata to share with third parties, or of commercial apps signed up for in schools that offer adverts in use.
I hope that I have explained exactly why we believe that a code of conduct is required in educational settings. I beg to move.
My Lords, I support and have added my name to Amendment 138 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. I will also speak to Amendment 141 in my name and those of the noble Lords, Lord Knight and Lord Russell, and the noble Baroness, Lady Harding.
Both these amendments propose a code of practice to address the use of children’s data in the context of education. Indeed, they have much in common. Having heard the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, I have much in common with what he said. I associate myself entirely with his remarks and hope that mine will build on them. Both the amendments point to the same problem that children’s data is scandalously treated in our schools and educators need support; this is a persistent and known failure that both the DfE and the ICO have failed to confront over a period of some years.
Amendment 141 seeks to give a sense of exactly what an education code should cover. In doing so, it builds on the work of the aforementioned Digital Futures for Children centre at the LSE, which I chair, the work of Defend Digital Me, the excellent work of academics at UCL, and much of the work relating to education presented to the UN tech envoy in the course of drafting the UN global digital compact.
Subsection (1) of the proposed new clause would require the ICO to prepare a code of practice in connection with the provision of education. Subsection (2) sets out what the ICO would have to take into account, such as that education provision includes school management and safeguarding as well as learning; the different settings in which it takes place; the need for transparency and evidence of efficacy; and all the issues already mentioned, including profiling, transparency, safety, security, parental involvement and the provision of counselling services.
Subsection (3) would require the ICO to have regard to children’s entitlement to a higher standard of protection—which we are working so hard in Committee to protect—their rights under the UNCRC and their different ages and stages of development. Importantly, it also refers to the need and desire to support innovation in education and the need to ensure that the benefits derived from the use of UK children’s data accrue to the UK.
Subsection (4) lists those whom the commissioner would have to consult, and subsection (5) sets out when data processors and controllers would be subject to the code. Subsection (6) proposes a certification scheme for edtech services to demonstrate compliance with UK GDPR and the code. Subsection (7) would require edtech service and product providers to evidence compliance—importantly, transferring that responsibility from schools to providers. Subsection (8) simply defines the terms.
A code of practice is an enabler. It levels the playing field, sets terms for innovators, creates sandbox or research environments, protects children and supports schools. It offers a particularly attractive environment for developing the better digital world that we would all like to see, since schools are identifiable communities in which changes and outcomes could be measured.
My Lords, I was unsure whether to support Amendment 141, let alone speak to it, simply because I have a number of interests in this area and I should be clear about those. I chair Century-Tech Ltd, which is an AI edtech company; I am on the board of Educate Ventures Research Ltd, which offers advice to educators and schools on the use of AI in education; and I am a trustee of the Good Future Foundation, which does something similar.
I start by reminding the Committee of some of the benefits of technology and AI for education, so that there is a balance both in my speech and in the debate. Exciting practice is already taking place in the area of flipped learning, for example, where—putting issues of the digital divide to one side—in those classes and communities where there is good access to technology at home, the instructional element of learning can take place at home and school becomes a much more profoundly human endeavour, with teachers being able to save the time spent on the instructional element of teaching to bring that learning to life. I have some issues with AI in the world of tutoring in certain circumstances, but some of that can be very helpful in respect of flipped learning.
Project-based learning also becomes much more possible. That is very hard to teach but much more possible to teach by using AI tools to help link what is being learned in projects through to the curriculum. Teacher time can be saved and, by taking care of a lot of administrative tasks through AI, we can in turn make a significant contribution to the teacher retention crisis that is currently bedevilling our schools. There are novel assessment methods that can now be developed using AI, in particular making the traditional assessment method of the viva much more affordable and reliable. It is hard to use AI to cheat if you are being assessed orally.
Finally, an important element is preparation for work: if we want these young people to be able to leave school and thrive in a labour market where they must be able to collaborate effectively with machines, we need them to be able to experience that in a responsible and taught fashion in school.
However, dystopian issues can arise from an over- dependence on technology and from some of the potential impacts of using AI in education, too. I mentioned the digital divide—the 7.5 million families in this country are not connected to and confident to use the internet—and we discovered during Covid the device and data poverty that exists in this country. There is a possibility that poorer kids end up being taught by machines and not by human teachers at all. There is a danger that we do not shift our schools away from the slightly Victorian system that we have at the moment, which the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, referenced at Second Reading. If we do not, we will end up with our children being outcompeted by machines. That overreliance on AI could also end up as privatisation by stealth because, if all the AI, technology and data are held by the private sector, and we are dependent on it, we will be beholden to the private sector however much we believe in the importance of the public good in our schools.
There are also problems of system design; I mentioned the Victorian system. I am hopeful that the curriculum and assessment review and the Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill that was published this week will help us. Whichever direction that review and those reforms take, we can be confident that edtech will respond. That is what it does; it responds to whatever regulation we pass, including in this Bill, over time and to whatever changes take place in the education system.
But tech needs data and it needs diversity of data. There is a danger that, if we close off access to data in this country, we will all end up using lots of AI that has been developed by using Chinese data, where they do not have the same misgivings about privacy, sharing each other’s data and acquiring data. We have to find a regime that works.
I do a bunch of work in international schooling as chair of COBIS—the Council of British International Schools—and I know of one large international school group, which I do not advise, that has done a deal with Microsoft around sharing all its pupil data, so that it can be used for Copilot. Obviously, Microsoft has a considerable interest in OpenAI, and we do not know exactly where that data is going. That points to some of the concerns that the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, have talked about.
During Covid, schools were strongly encouraged by the then Government to use either Google Classroom or Microsoft 365. Essentially, everyone was given a binary choice, and lots of data was therefore captured by those two large American corporations, which assisted them to develop further products. Any British alternative was, in essence, cut out, so we have good reason to be concerned in this area. That is why in the end I added my name and support to Amendment 141 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron.
Children need privacy and they need digital rights. At the moment, those are exercised through parental consent for the use of these platforms and the capture of data, but I think it would be helpful to put that in a codified form, so that all those concerns have some sense of security about the regimes around which this works.
Ever since the abolition of Becta back in 2010, school leaders have been missing advice. Becta advice was used around the globe, as it was the authority on what works in technology and education. Sadly, the coalition got rid of it, and school leaders are now operating kind of blindfolded. We have 25,000 different school leaders buying technology, and very few of them really know what they are doing when faced with slick salespeople. Giving them some protection with a code would help their procurement.
The proof of the pudding will of course be in the eating—in the detail of the code—but I urge my noble friend the Minister to reflect carefully on the need for this, to talk to the DfE about it and to try to get some agreement. The DfE itself does not have the greatest track record on data and data protection. It has got into trouble with the ICO on more than one occasion.
My final cautionary tale, thanks to Defend Digital Me, is on the national pupil database, which was agreed in 2002 on the basis that children’s data would be kept private, protected and used only for research purposes—all the things that we are hearing in the debates on this Bill. Ten years later, that was all changed and 2,500 data- sharing arrangements followed that use that data, including for universal credit fraud detection. When parents allow their children’s data to be shared, they do not expect it to be used, down the line, to check universal credit entitlement. I do not think that was in the terms and conditions. There is an important issue here, and I hope that the Government are listening so that we make some progress.
I shall speak very briefly, because the previous three speakers have covered the ground extremely well and made some extremely powerful arguments.
The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, put her finger on it. The default position of departments such as the DfE, if they recognise there is a problem, is to issue guidance. Schools are drowning in guidance. If you talk to any headmaster or headmistress or the staff in charge of technology and trying to keep on top of it, they are drowning in guidance. They are basically flying blind when being asked to take some quite major decisions, whether it is about purchasing or the safeguards around usage or about measuring the effectiveness of some of the educational technology skills that are being acquired.
There is a significant difference between guidance and a clear and concrete code. We were talking the other day, on another group, about the need to have guardrails, boundaries and clarity. We need clarity for schools and for the educational technology companies themselves to know precisely what they can and cannot do. We come back again to the issue of the necessity of measuring outcomes, not just processes and inputs, because they are constantly changing. It is very important for the companies themselves to have clear guardrails.
The research to which the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, referred, which is being done by a variety of organisations, found problems in the areas that we are talking about in this country, the United States, Iceland, Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands, Germany and France—and that is just scratching the surface. Things are moving very quickly and AI is accelerating that even more. With a code you are drawing a line in the sand and declaring very clearly what you expect and do not expect, what is permissible and not permissible. Guidance is simply not sufficient.
My Lords, I make a brief intervention. I am not against these amendments —they are very useful in the context of the Bill. However, I am reflecting on the fact that, when we drafted GDPR, we took a six-year process and failed in the course of doing so to really accommodate AI, which keeps popping up every so often in this Bill. Every part of every amendment seems to have a new subsection referring to automative decisions or to AI generally.
Obviously, we are moving on to have legislation in due course on AI and I am sure that a number of pieces of legislation, including no doubt this one, will be able to be used as part of our overall package when we deal with the regulation of AI. However, although it is true that the UK GDPR gives, in theory, a higher standard of protection for children, it is important to consider that, in the context of AI, the protections that we need to have are going to have to be much greater—we know that. But if there is going to be a code of practice for children and educational areas, we need also to consider vulnerable and disabled people and other categories of people who are equally entitled to have, and particularly with regard to the AI elements need to have, some help. That is going to be very difficult. Most adults whom I know know less about AI than do children approaching the age of 18, who are much more knowledgeable. They are also more knowledgeable of the restrictions that will have to be put in place than are adults, who appear to be completely at sea and not even understanding what AI is about.
I make a precautionary point. We should be very careful, while we have AI dotted all the way through this, that when we specify a particular element—in this case, for children—we must be aware of the need to have protection in place for other groups, particularly in the context of this Bill and, indeed, future legislation.
My Lords, I very much support the thrust of these amendments and what the noble Lord, Lord Knight, said in support of and in addition to them. I declare an interest as a current user of the national pupil database.
The proper codification of safeguards would be a huge help. As the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, said, it would give us a foundation on which to build. I hope that, if they are going to go in this direction, the Government will take an immediate opportunity to do so because what we have here, albeit much more disorganised, is a data resource equivalent to what we have for the National Health Service. If we used all the data on children that these systems generate, we would find it much easier to know what works and in what circumstances, as well as how to keep improving our education system.
The fact that this data is tucked away in little silos—it is not shared and is not something that can be used on a national basis—is a great pity. If we have a national code as to how this data is handled, we enable something like the use of educational data in the way that the NHS proposes to use health data. Safeguards are needed on that level but the Government have a huge opportunity; I very much hope that it is one they will take.
I start by thanking all noble Lords who spoke; I enjoyed the vivid examples that were shared by so many of them. I particularly enjoyed the comment from the noble Lord, Lord Russell, about the huge gulf in difference between guidance, of which there is far too much, and a code that actually drives matters forward.
I will speak much more briefly because this ground has been well covered already. Both the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, seek to introduce codes of practice to protect the data of children in education services. Amendment 138 in the name of the noble Lord seeks to introduce a code on processing personal data in education. This includes consultation for the creation of such a code—a highly important element because the safety of this data, as well as its eventual usage, is of course paramount. Amendment 141 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, also seeks to set out a code of practice to provide heightened protections for children in education.
Those amendments are absolutely right to include consultation. It is a particularly important area of legislation. It is important that it does not restrict what schools can do with their data in order to improve the quality and productivity of their work. I was very appreciative of the words of the noble Lord, Lord Knight, when he sketched out some of the possibilities of what becomes educationally possible when these techs are wisely and safely used. With individual schools often responsible for the selection of technologies and their procurement, the landscape is—at the risk of understatement —often more complex than we would wish.
Alongside that, the importance of the AI Safety Institute’s role in consultation cannot be overstated. The way in which tech and AI have developed in recent years means that its expertise on how safely to provide AI to this particularly vulnerable group is invaluable.
I very much welcome the emphasis that these amendments place on protecting children’s data, particularly in the realm of education services. Schools are a safe place. That safety being jeopardised by the rapid evolution of technology that the law cannot keep pace with would, I think we can all agree, be unthinkable. As such, I hope that the Government will give careful consideration to the points raised as we move on to Report.
My Lords, Amendment 138 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and Amendment 141, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the noble Lord, Lord Knight, would both require the ICO to publish a code of practice for controllers and processors on the processing of personal data by educational technologies in schools.
I say at the outset that I welcome this debate and the contributions of noble Lords on this important issue. As various noble Lords have indicated, civil society organisations have also been contacting the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology and the Department for Education directly to highlight their concerns about this issue. It is a live issue.
I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Knight, who talked about some of the important and valuable contributions that technology can play in supporting children’s development and guiding teaching interventions. We have to get the balance right, but we understand and appreciate that schoolchildren, parents and schoolteachers must have the confidence to trust the way that services use children’s personal data. That is at the heart of this debate.
There is a lot of work going on, on this issue, some of which noble Lords have referred to. The Department for Education is already exploring ways to engage with the edtech market to reinforce the importance of evidence-based quality products and services in education. On my noble friend Lord Knight’s comments on AI, the Department for Education is developing a framework outlining safety expectations for AI products in education and creating resources for teachers and leaders on safe AI use.
I recognise why noble Lords consider that a dedicated ICO code of practice could help ensure that schools and edtech services are complying with data protection legislation. The Government are open-minded about exploring the merits of this further with the ICO, but it would be premature to include these requirements in the Bill. As I said, there is a great deal of work going on and the findings of the recent ICO audits of edtech service providers will help to inform whether a code of practice is necessary and what services should be in scope.
I hope that we will bear that in mind and engage on it. I would be happy to continue discussions with noble Lords, the ICO and colleagues at the Department for Education, outside of the Bill’s processes, about the possibility of future work on this, particularly as the Secretary of State has powers under the Data Protection Act 2018 to require the ICO to produce new statutory codes, as noble Lords know. Considering the explanation that I have given, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, will consider withdrawing his amendment at this stage.
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response and all speakers in this debate. On the speech from the noble Lord, Lord Knight, I entirely agree with the Minister and the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, that it is important to remind ourselves about the benefits that can be achieved by AI in schools. The noble Lord set out a number of those. The noble Lord, Lord Russell, also reminded us that this is not a purely domestic issue; it is international across the board.
However, all noble Lords reminded us of the disbenefits and risks. In fact, the noble Lord, Lord Knight, used the word “dystopian”, which was quite interesting, although he gets very close to science fiction sometimes. He said that
“we have good reason to be concerned”,
particularly because of issues such as the national pupil database, where the original purpose may not have been fulfilled and was, in many ways, changed. He gave an example of procurement during Covid, where the choice was either Google or Microsoft—Coke or Pepsi. That is an issue across the board in competition law, as well.
There are real issues here. The noble Lord, Lord Russell, put it very well when he said that there is any number of pieces of guidance for schools but it is important to have a code of conduct. We are all, I think, on the same page in trying to find—in the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron—a fairer and more equitable set of arrangements for children in schools. We need to navigate our way through this issue; of course, organisations such as Defend Digital Me and 5rights are seriously working on it.
My Lords, it is a pleasure to take part in today’s Committee proceedings. In doing so, I declare my technology interests as set out in the register, not least as an adviser to Socially Recruited, an AI business. In moving Amendment 156A, I will also speak to Amendment 156B, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for co-signing them.
We live in extraordinarily uncertain times, domestically and internationally. In many ways, it has always been thus. However, things are different and have accelerated, not least in the last two decades, because of the online environment and the digital selves that we find ourselves interacting with in a world that is ever changing moment by moment. These amendments seek to update an important statute that governs critical elements of how cybersecurity professionals in this nation seek to keep us all safe in these extraordinarily difficult times.
The Computer Misuse Act 1990 was introduced to defend telephony exchanges at a time when 0.5% of us were online. If that was the purpose of the Act—the statute when passed—that alone would suggest that it needs an update. Who among us would use our smartphone if we had had it for 34 years? Well, we could not—the iPhone has been around only since 2007. This whole world has changed profoundly in the last 20 years, never mind the last 34. It is not just that the Act needs to be updated because it falls short of how society and technology have changed in those intervening years; it needs, desperately and urgently, to be updated because it is currently putting every citizen in this nation at risk for want of being amended. This is the purpose of Amendments 156A and 156B.
The Computer Misuse Act 1990 is not only out of date but inadvertently criminalising the cybersecurity professionals we charge with the job of keeping us all safe. They oftentimes work, understandably, under the radar, behind not just closed but locked doors, doing such important work. Yet, for want of these amendments, they are doing that work, all too often, with at least one hand tied behind their back.
Let us take just two examples: vulnerability research and threat intelligence assessment and analysis. Both could find that cybersecurity professional falling foul of the provisions of the CMA 1990. Do not take my word for it: look to the 2024 annual report of the National Cyber Security Centre, which rightly and understandably highlights the increasing gap between the threats we face and its ability, and the ability of the cybersecurity professionals community, to meet those threats.
These amendments, in essence, perform one simple but critical task: to afford a legal defence for legitimate cybersecurity activities. That is all, but it would have such a profound impact for those whom we have asked to keep us safe and for the safety they can thus deliver to every citizen in our society.
Where is the Government’s work on updating the Computer Misuse Act 1990 in this respect? Will the Government take this opportunity to accept these amendments? Do they believe that these amendments would provide a materially positive benefit to our cybersecurity professionals and thus to our nation, and, if so, why would they not take this first opportunity to enact these amendments to this data Bill?
It is not time; it is well over time that these amendments become part of our law. If not now, when? If not these amendments, which amendments? If they do not accept these amendments, what will the Government say to all those people who will continue to be put in harm’s way for want of these protective provisions being passed? It is time to pass these amendments and give our cybersecurity professionals the tools they need. It is time, from the legislative perspective, to keep them safe so that they can do the self-same thing for all of us. It is time to cyber up. I beg to move.
My Lords, I was delighted to see these amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes. He, the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, and I, along with many other parliamentarians, have long argued for changes to the Computer Misuse Act. For context, the original Act was created largely in response to a famous incident in which professional hackers and a technology journalist broke into British Telecom’s Prestel system in the mid-1980s. The Bill received Royal Assent in June 1990, barely two months after Tim Berners-Lee and CERN made the world wide web publicly available for the first time. Who remembers Prestel? Perhaps this is the wrong House in which to ask that question.
As the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, explained, there is no statutory public interest defence in the Act. This omission creates a legal risk for cybersecurity researchers and professionals conducting legitimate activities in the public interest. The Post Office Horizon scandal demonstrated how critical independent computer system investigation is for uncovering systemic problems and highlighted the need for protected legal pathways for researchers and investigators to examine potentially flawed systems.
I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Vallance, is here for this set of amendments. His Pro-innovation Regulation of Technologies Review explicitly recommends incorporating such a defence to provide stronger legal protections for cybersecurity researchers and professionals engaged in threat intelligence research. This recommendation was rooted in the understanding that such a defence would have, it said,
“a catalytic effect on innovation”
within the UK’s cybersecurity sector, which possesses “considerable growth potential”.
My Lords, following on from what I said on earlier amendments, this is worse than what the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, has just expressed. Indeed, I fully support the amendments of my noble friend Lord Holmes. However, this just demonstrates, yet again, that unless we pull ourselves together, with better smart legislation that moves faster, we will never ever catch up with developments in technology and AI. This has been demonstrated dramatically by these amendments. I express concerns that the Government move at a pace that government always moves at, but in this particular field it is not going to work. We are going to be disadvantaged and in serious trouble, unless we can move a bit faster.
My Lords, I rise briefly but strongly to support my noble friend Lord Holmes. The CyberUp campaign has been banging this drum for a long time now. I remember taking part in the debates in another place on the Computer Misuse Act 34 years ago. It was the time of dial-up modems, fax machines and bulletin boards. This is the time to act, and it is the opportunity to do so.
My Lords, we ought to be mindful and congratulate the noble Lord on having been parliamentarian of the year as a result of his campaigning activities.
My Lords, I rise to make a brief but emphatic comment from the health constituency. We in the NHS have been victims of appalling cyber- hacking. The pathology labs in south London were hacked and that cost many lives. It is an example of where the world is going in the future unless we act promptly. The emphatic call for quick action so that government keeps up with world changes is really well made. I ask the Minister to reflect on that.
My Lords, I, too, shall speak very briefly, which will save valuable minutes in which I can order my CyberUp Christmas mug.
Amendments 156A and 156B add to the definition of unauthorised access, so that it includes instances where a person who accesses data in the reasonable knowledge that the controller would not consent if they knew about the access or the reason for the access, and this person is not empowered to access by an enactment. Amendment 156B introduces defences to this new charge. Given the amount of valuable personal data held by controllers, as our lives have moved increasingly online—as many speakers in this debate have vividly brought out—there is absolutely clear merit not just in this idea but in the pace implied, which many noble Lords have called for. There is a need for real urgency here, and I look forward to hearing more detail from the Minister.
My Lords, I turn to Amendments 156A and 156B, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes. I understand the strength of feeling and the need to provide legal protections for legitimate cybersecurity activities. I agree with the noble Lord that the UK should have the right legislative framework to allow us to tackle the harms posed by cybercriminals. We have heard examples of some of those threats this afternoon.
I reassure the noble Lord that this Government are committed to ensuring that the Computer Misuse Act remains up to date and effective in tackling criminality. We will continue to work with the cybersecurity industry, the National Cyber Security Centre and law enforcement agencies to consider whether there are workable proposals on this. The noble Lord will know that this is a complex and ongoing issue being considered as part of the review of the Computer Misuse Act being carried out by the Home Office. We are considering improved defences by engaging extensively with the cybersecurity industry, law enforcement agencies, prosecutors and system owners. However, engagement to date has not produced a consensus on the issue, even within the industry, and that is holding us back at this moment—but we are absolutely determined to move forward with this and to reach a consensus on the way forward.
I think the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, said in the previous debate that the amendments were premature, and here that is certainly the case. The specific amendments that the noble Lord has tabled are premature, because we need a stronger consensus on the way forward, notwithstanding all the good reasons that noble Lords have given for why it is important that we have updated legislation. With these concerns and reasons in mind, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Could the Minister say a few words on some of those points of discourse and non-consensus, to give the Committee some flavour of the type of issues where there is no consensus as well as the extent of the gap between some of those perspectives?
Just to follow up, have the Government formally responded to the original review from the noble Lord, Lord Vallance? That would be very helpful as well, in unpacking what were clearly extremely well-informed recommendations. It should, no doubt, be taken extremely seriously.
I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, that we published our analysis of the consultation responses to the previous Home Office investigation in November 2023, so all those mixed responses are on the record. It was therefore concluded by the Government that further work needed to be done on this. On my noble friend’s report, was there a government response?
Yes, the Government accepted the recommendations in full.
Before the Minister sits down or stands up or whatever the appropriate phrase should be, I very much hope that, since the previous Government gave that indication, this Government will take that as a spur to non-glacial progress. I hope that at least the speed might get up to a number of miles per hour before too long.
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this important debate and, indeed, the Minister for her thoughtful response. We find ourselves in a position of extraordinary good fortune when it comes to these and many other amendments, not least in the area of artificial intelligence. We had a first-class report from the then Sir Patrick Vallance as CSA. It is not often in life that in a short space of time one is afforded the opportunity in government of bringing much of that excellent work into being through statute, regulation, codes and other guidance. I await further steps in this area.
There can barely be, in many ways, a more serious and pressing issue to be addressed. For every day that we delay, harms are caused. Even if the Government were only to do this on their growth agenda, much spoken of, this would have an economic benefit to the United Kingdom. It would be good to meet the Minister between Committee and Report to see if anything further can be done but, from my perspective and others, we will certainly be returning to this incredibly important issue. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
My Lords, I shall also speak to Amendment 198 in my name and register my support for the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, to which I have added my name. Independent research access is a very welcome addition to the Bill by the Government. It was a key recommendation of the pre-legislative scrutiny committee on the Online Safety Bill in 2021 and I know that I speak for many colleagues in the academic field, as well as many civil society organisations, who are delighted by its swift and definitive inclusion in the Bill.
The objective of these amendments is not to derail the Government’s plans, but rather to ensure that they happen and to make the regime work for children and the UK’s world-class academic institutions and stellar civil society organisations, ensuring that we can all do high-quality research about emergent threats to children and society more broadly.
Amendment 197 would ensure that the provisions in Clause 123 are acted on by removing the Government’s discretion as to whether or not they introduce regulations. It would also impose a deadline of 12 months for the Government to do so. I have said this before, but I have learnt the hard way that good intentions and warm words from the Dispatch Box are a poor substitute for clear provisions in law. A quick search of the Bill reveals that there are 119 uses of the word “must” and 262 uses of the word “may”. Clearly, they are being used to create different obligations or expectations. The Minister may say that this amendment is not needed and that, for all intents and purposes, we can take the word “may” as a “must” or a “will”, but I would prefer to see it in black and white. In fact, if the Government have reserved discretion on this point, I would like to understand exactly what that means for research.
Amendment 198 seeks to ensure that the regulations will enable independent researchers to research how online risks and harms impact different groups, especially vulnerable users including children. We have already discussed the fact that online harms are not experienced equally by users: those who are most vulnerable offline are often the most vulnerable online. In an earlier debate, I talked about the frustrations experienced when tech companies do not report data according to age groups. In failing to do so, it is possible to hide the reality that children are disproportionately impacted by certain risks and harms. This amendment would ensure that children and other vulnerable groups can be studied in isolation, rather than leaving independent researchers to pick through generalised datasets to uncover where harm is amplified and for whom.
I will leave the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, to explain his amendments, but I will just say why it is so important that we have a clear path to researcher access. It is fundamental to the success of the online safety regime.
Many will remember Frances Haugen, the Facebook whistleblower, who revealed the extent to which Meta knew, through its own detailed internal research, how harmful their platforms actually are to young people. Meta’s own research showed that:
“We make body image issues worse for one in three girls”.
Some 32% of teen girls said that, when they have felt bad about their bodies, Instagram has made them feel worse. Were it not for a whistleblower, this research would never have been made public.
After a series of evidence disclosures to US courts as a result of the legal action by attorneys-general at state level, we have heard whistleblowers suggest, in evidence given to the EU, that there will be a new culture in some Silicon Valley firms—no research and no emails. If you have something to say, you will have to say it in person so that it cannot be used against them in court. The irony of that is palpable given the struggle that we are having about user privacy, but it points to the need for our research regime to be water- tight. If the companies are not looking at the impact of their own services, we must. I hope that the Government continue their leadership on this issue and accept the amendments in the spirit that they are being put forward.
I have another point that I want the Minister to clarify. I apologise, because I raised this in a private meeting but I have forgotten the answer. Given the number of regulatory investigations, proceedings and civil litigations in which tech companies are engaged, I would like some comfort about the legal exemption in these clauses. I want to understand whether it applies only to advice from and between lawyers or exempts data that may negatively impact companies’ defence or surface evidence of safety failures or deficiencies. The best way that I have of explaining my concern is: if it is habitual for tech companies to cc a lawyer in all their communications on product safety, trust and safety, and so on, would that give them legal privilege?
Finally, I support the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, in his desire for a definition of independent researchers. I would be interested to hear what the Minister has to say on that. I beg to move.
My Lords, I will speak to my Amendments 198A and 198C to 198F. I also support Amendments 197, 198 and 198B, to which I have added my name, all of which address the issue of data for researchers.
As was put very thoughtfully by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, platforms are not making decisions about their services with due regard to product safety or with independent oversight. Ofcom’s work enforcing the Online Safety Act will significantly shift towards accountability, in some part, but it makes no provision at the moment on researchers’ data access, despite civil society and academic researchers being at the forefront of highlighting online harms for a decade. The anecdotes that the noble Baroness just gave were a very powerful testimony to the importance of that. We are, in fact, flying completely blind, making policy and, in this Room, legislation without data, facts and insight about the performance and algorithms that we seek to address. Were it not for the whistleblowers, we would not have anything to go on and we cannot rely on whistleblowers to guide our hands.
Rectifying this admission is in the Bill, and I am enormously grateful to the Minister and to the role of my noble friend Lord Camrose for putting it in the Bill. It is particularly important, because the situation with data for researchers has deteriorated considerably, even in the last 18 months—with Meta shutting CrowdTangle and X restricting researchers’ access to its API. The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, spoke about what the whistleblowers think, and they think that this is going to get a lot worse in the future.
I welcome the inclusion of these provisions in the Bill. They will be totally transformational to this sector, bringing a level of access to serious analysts and academics, so we can better understand the impact of the digital world, for both good and bad. A good example of the importance of robust research to inform policy-making was the Secretary of State’s recent announcement that the Government were launching a
“research project to explore the impact of social media on young people’s wellbeing and mental health”.—[Official Report, Commons, 20/11/24; col. 250.]
That project will not be very effective if the researchers cannot access the data, so I very much hope that these provisions will be enforced before they start spending money on that.
To be effective and to have the desired effect, we need to ensure that the data for researchers regime, as described in the Bill, is truly effective and cannot be easily brushed off. That is why the Government need to accept the amendments in this group: to bring some clarity and to close loopholes in the scheme as it is outlined in the Bill.
I will briefly summarise the provisions in the amendments in my name. First, we need to make researcher access regulations enforceable in the same way as other requirements in the Online Safety Act. The enforcement provisions in that Act were strengthened considerably as it passed through this House, and I believe that the measures for data for researchers need to be given the same rocket boosters. Amendment 198D will mean that regulated services will be required to adhere to the regime and give Ofcom the power to levy proper remedial action if regulated services are obfuscating or non-compliant.
Secondly, we need to ensure that any contractual provision of use, such as a platform’s terms of service, is unenforceable if it would prevent
“research into online safety matters”,
as defined in the regulations. This is an important loophole that needs to be closed. It will protect UK researchers carrying out public interest research from nefarious litigation over terms of service violations as platforms seek to obfuscate access to data. We have seen this practice in other areas.
Thirdly, we need to clarify that researchers carrying out applicable research into online safety matters in the UK will be able to access information under the regime, regardless of where they are located. This is a basic point. Amendment 198E would bring the regime in line with the Digital Services Act of the EU and allow the world’s best researchers to study potential harm to UK users.
Ensuring robust researcher access to data contributes to a great ecosystem of investigation and scrutiny that will help to enforce an effective application of the law, while also guarding against overreach in terms of moderating speech. It is time to back UK civil society and academic researchers to ensure that policy-making and regulatory enforcement is as informed as possible. That is why I ask the Minister to support these measures.
My Lords, I will speak briefly. I added my name in support of Amendments 197 and 198, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron. We do not need to rehearse the arguments as to why children are a distinct group who need to be looked at in a distinctive way, so I will not repeat those arguments.
I turn to the excellent points made in the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bethell. Data access for researchers is fundamental. The problem with statutory bodies, regulators and departments of state is that they are not designed and set up to be experts in researching some of the more arcane areas in which these algorithms are developed. This is leading-edge stuff. The employees in these platforms—the people who are designing and tweaking these very clever algorithms—are coming from precisely the academic and research institutions that are best placed to go into those companies and find out what they are doing. In many cases, it is their own graduates and PhDs who are doing it. They are the best qualified people to look at what is going on, because they will understand what is going on. If somebody tries to obfuscate, they will see through them immediately, because they can understand that highly sophisticated language.
If we do not allow this, we will be in the deeply uncomfortable position of relying on brave people such as Frances Haugen to run the huge reputational, employability and financial risks of becoming a whistleblower. A whistleblower who takes on one of those huge platforms that has been employing them is a very brave person indeed. I would feel distinctly uncomfortable if I thought that we were trying to guard our citizens, and particularly our children, against what some of these algorithms are trying to do by relying on the good wishes and chances of a whistleblower showing us what was going on. I support all these amendments very strongly.
My Lords, I shall speak very briefly. I have a great deal of agreement with what the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, the noble Lord, Lord Russell, and my noble friend Lord Bethell have said. I am rising to nitpick; I apologise for that, but I suppose that is what Committee is for.
The final line of proposed new subsection (da), to be inserted by Amendment 198, refers to
“different characteristics including gender, race, ethnicity, disability, sexuality, gender”.
On our first day in Committee, I raised the importance of the issue of sex, which is different from gender or sexuality. We need to make sure that we get the wording of this amendment, if it were to be accepted by the Government, absolutely right.
My Lords, I shall also speak extremely briefly, as one of the three veterans of the Joint Committee present in Committee today, to reinforce my support for these amendments. The Government should be congratulated on Clause 123. It is welcome to see this movement but we want to see this done quickly. We want to ensure that it is properly enforceable, that terms of service cannot be used to obstruct access to researchers, as the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, said, and that there is proper global access by researchers, because, of course, these are global tech companies and UK users need to be protected through transparency. It is notable that, in the government consultation on copyright and AI published yesterday, transparency is a core principle of what the Government are arguing for. It is this transparency that we need in this context, through independent researchers. I strongly commend these amendments to the Minister.
My Lords, I would like to just make one comment on this group. I entirely agree with everything that has been said and, in particular, with the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, but the one that I want to single out—it is why I am bothering to stand up—is Amendment 197, which says that the Secretary of State “must” implement this measure.
I was heavily scarred back in 2017 by the Executive’s refusal to implement Part 3 of the Digital Economy Act in order to protect our children from pornography. Now, nearly eight years later, they are still not protected. It was never done properly, in my opinion, in the then Online Safety Bill either; it still has not been implemented. I think, therefore, that we need to have a “must” there. We have an Executive who are refusing to carry out the issue from Parliament in passing the legislation. We have a problem, but I think that we can amend it by putting “must” in the Bill. Then, we can hold the Executive to account.
My Lords, the trouble with this House is that some have long memories. The noble Earl, Lord Erroll, reminded us all to look back, with real regret, at the Digital Economy Act and the failure to implement Part 3. I think that that was a misstep by the previous Government.
Like all of us, I warmly welcome the inclusion of data access provisions for researchers studying online safety matters in Clause 123 of the Bill. As we heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the noble Lord, Lord Knight, this was very much unfinished business from the Online Safety Act. However, I believe that, in order for the Bill to be effective and have the desired effect, the Government need to accept the amendments in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the noble Lord, Lord Bethell. In terms of timeframe, the width of research possible, enforceability, contractual elements and location, they cover the bases extremely effectively.
The point was made extremely well by the noble Lords, Lord Bethell and Lord Russell, that we should not have to rely on brave whistleblowers such as Frances Haugen. We should be able to benefit from quality researchers, whether from academia or elsewhere, in order to carry out this important work.
My Amendment 198B is intended as a probing amendment about the definition of researchers under Clause 123, which has to be carefully drawn to allow for legitimate non-governmental organisations, academics and so on, but not so widely that it can be exploited by bad actors. For example, we do not want those who seek to identify potential exploits in a platform to use this by calling themselves “independent researchers” if they simply describe themselves as such. For instance, could Tommy Robinson seek to protect himself from liabilities in this way? After all, he called himself an “independent journalist” in another context when he clearly was not. I hope that when the Government come to draw up the regulations they will be mindful of the need to be very clear about what constitutes an independent or accredited researcher, or whatever phrase will be used in the context.
My Lords, although I have no amendments in this group, I will comment on some of them. I might jump around the order, so please forgive me for that.
Amendment 197 would change Clause 123 so that the Secretary of State must, as soon as reasonably practicable and no later than 12 months after the Act is passed, make regulations requiring regulated services to provide information for the purposes of research into online safety. This is clearly sensible. It would ensure that valuable research into online safety may commence as soon as possible, which would benefit us all, as speakers have made abundantly clear. To that end, Amendment 198D, which would ensure that researcher access is enforceable in the same way as other requirements under the Online Safety Act, would ensure that researchers can access valuable information and carry out their beneficial research.
I am still left with some curiosity on some of these amendments, so I will indicate where I have specific questions to those who have tabled them and hope they will forgive me if I ask to have a word with them between now and Report, which would be very helpful. In that spirit, I turn to Amendment 198B, which would allow the Secretary of State to define the term “independent researcher”. I ask the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, who tabled the amendment, whether he envisages the Secretary of State taking advice before making such regulations and, if so, from whom and in what mechanism. I recognise that it is a probing amendment, but I would be keen to understand more.
I am also keen to understand further from my noble friend Lord Bethell and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, why, under Amendment 198A, the Secretary of State would not be able to make regulations providing for independent research into the “enforcement of requirements” under these regulations. Again, I look forward to discussing that with them.
I have some concerns about Amendment 198, which would require service providers to give information pertaining to age, stage of development, gender, race, ethnicity, disability and sexuality to researchers. I understand the importance of this but my concern is that it would require the disclosure of special category data to those researchers. I express reservations, especially if the data pertains to children. Do we have the right safeguards in place to address the obviously heightened risks here?
Additionally, I have some concerns about the provisions suggested in Amendment 198E. Should we allow researchers from outside the United Kingdom to require access to information from regulated service providers? Could this result in data being transferred into jurisdictions where there are less stringent data protection laws?
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have welcomed the provisions in the Bill. I very much appreciate that we have taken on board the concerns that were raised in the debates on the previous legislation. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the noble Lords, Lord Bethell and Lord Clement-Jones, for their amendments.
I will speak first to Amendment 197, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, which would compel the Secretary of State to create a framework and to do so within 12 months of passage. I understand and share her desire to ensure that a framework allowing researchers access is installed and done promptly. This is precisely why we brought forward this provision. I reassure her that the department will consult on the framework as soon as possible after the publication of Ofcom’s report.
Turning to Amendments 198 and 198B, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, respectively, Clause 123 provides the Secretary of State with the power to make regulations relating to researchers’ access to data. I can reassure noble Lords that it does not limit the regulations to the non-exhaustive list of examples provided. I agree that fair and proportionate criteria for who is considered a researcher are critical to the success of the future framework. I reassure noble Lords that in the provision as currently written the Secretary of State can include in the design of the framework the specific requirements that a person must meet to be considered a researcher.
Turning to Amendments 198A and 198D, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, while I am sympathetic to his desire to provide a future framework with the robust enforcement powers of the OSA, I assure him that as the provision is written, the Secretary of State can already use the existing enforcement powers of the OSA to support a future framework. Furthermore, should the evidence suggest that additional or different measures would be more effective and appropriate, this provision allows the Secretary of State the flexibility to introduce them.
Turning next to Amendments 198C and 198E, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, I understand the spirit of these amendments and note the importance of this issue, given the global nature of the online world. It is entirely reasonable to allow researchers who are not based in the UK to utilise our researcher access framework, as long as the subject of their research is the experience of UK users online. I reassure him that the provisions as drafted already allow the Secretary of State to make regulations permitting non-UK-based researchers to use the framework where appropriate. We plan to use the evidence gathered through our own means and through Ofcom’s report to set out who will be eligible to use the framework in the secondary legislation.
Finally, turning to Amendment 198F, I am aware of the concern that researchers have encountered blockages to conducting research and I am sympathetic to the intentions behind the amendment. We must ensure that researchers can use the future framework without fear of legal action or other consequences. I am conscious that the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, asked me a specific question about legal exemptions and I will write to her to make that answer much clearer. I reassure noble Lords that the Government are considering the specific issues that the noble Lord raises. For these reasons, I ask that the amendments not be pressed while the Government consider these issues further and I am of course happy to engage with noble Lords in the meantime.
My Lords, I thank the Minister and everyone who spoke. I do not think I heard an answer to the may/must issue and I think I need to say that just relying on Ofcom’s report to set the framework for the regime is not adequate, for two reasons. First, it is no news to the Committee that there is a considerable amount of disquiet about how the Online Safety Act has been reinterpreted without Parliament’s intention. During the passage of this Bill, we are trying to be really clear—we will win some and we will lose some—on the face of the Bill what Parliament’s intention is, so that the regulator really does what we agree, because that subject is currently quite contentious.
This is a new area and a lot of the issues that the Minister and, indeed, the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, raised are here to be sorted out to make sure that we understand collectively what it will look like. Having said that, I would like the Government to have heard that we do not wish to rest on the actions of whistleblowers but we will be increasingly forced to do so if we do not have a good regime. We must understand the capacity of this sector to go to court. We are in court everywhere, all over the world; the sector has deep pockets.
Finally, I welcome the nitpicking of the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot. Long may he nitpick. We will make sure that he is content before Report. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
My Lords, the UK is a world leader in genomics research. This research will no doubt result in many benefits, particularly in the healthcare space. However, genomics data can be, and increasingly is, exploited for deeply concerning purposes, including geostrategic ones.
Western intelligence agencies are reportedly becoming increasingly concerned about China using genomic data and biotechnology for military purposes. The Chinese Government have made it clear that genomics plays a key part in the civilian-military doctrine. The 13th five-year plan for military-civil fusion calls for the cross-pollination of military and civilian technology such as biotechnology. This statement, taken in conjunction with reports that the Beijing Genomics Institute—the BGI—in collaboration with the People’s Liberation Army, is looking to make ethnically Han Chinese soldiers less susceptible to altitude sickness, makes for worrying reading. Genetically engineered soldiers appear to be moving out of fiction and towards reality.
The global genomics industry has grown substantially as a result of the Covid-19 pandemic and gene giant BGI Group and its affiliated MGI Tech have acquired large databases of DNA. Further, I note that BGI has widespread links to the Chinese state. It operates the Government’s key laboratories and national gene bank, itself a vast repository of DNA data drawn from all over the world. A Reuters investigation found that a prenatal test, NIFTY, sold by BGI to expectant mothers, gathered millions of women’s DNA data. This prenatal test was developed in collaboration with the Chinese military.
For these reasons, I think we must become far more protective of genomic data gathered from our population. While many researchers use genomic data to find cures for terrible diseases, many others, I am afraid, would use it to do us harm. To this end, I have tabled Amendment 199 to require the Secretary of State and the Information Commissioner to conduct frequent risk assessments on data privacy associated with genomics and DNA companies headquartered in countries that are systemic competitors or hostile actors. I believe this will go some way to preventing genomic data transfer out of the UK and to countries such as China that may use it for military purposes. I beg to move.
My Lords, I strongly support this amendment. As a former Minister, I was at the front line of genomic data and know how powerful it currently is and can be in the future. Having discussed this with the UK Biobank, I know that the issue of who stores and processes genomic data in the UK is a subject of huge and grave concern. I emphasise that the American Government have moved on this issue already and emphatically. There is the possibility that we will be left behind in global standards and will one day be an outlier if we do not close this important and strategically delicate loophole. For that reason, I strongly support this amendment.
My Lords, I was involved in an ethics committee that looked at genomics and cancer research some years ago, and this is very important. If research could be done on different genomic and racial types, it could be used against us adversely at some point. So there is a lot of sense in this.
My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, for moving this amendment, which raises this important question about our genomics databases, and for the disturbing examples that he has drawn to our attention. He is right that the opportunities from harnessing genomic data come with very real risks. This is why the Government have continued the important work of the UK Biological Security Strategy of 2023, including by conducting a full risk assessment and providing updated guidance to reduce the risks from the misuse of sensitive data. We plan to brief the Joint Committee on the National Security Strategy on the findings of the risk assessment in the new year. Following that, I look forward to engaging with the noble Viscount on its outcome and on how we intend to take these issues forward. As he says, this is a vital issue, but in the meantime I hope he is prepared to withdraw his amendment.
I thank the Minister for her answer, and I very much accept her offer of engagement. I will make a few further brief comments about the importance of this amendment, as we go forward. I hope that other noble Lords will consider it carefully before Report.
I will set out a few reasons why I believe this amendment can benefit both the Bill and this country. The first is its scope. The amendment will allow the Secretary of State and the Information Commissioner to assess data security risks across the entirety of the genomic sector, covering consumers, businesses, citizens and researchers who may be partnering with state-linked genomics companies.
The second reason is urgency. DNA is regularly described as the “new gold” and it represents our most permanent identifier, revealing physical and mental characteristics, family medical history and susceptibility to diseases. Once it has been accessed, the damage from potential misuse cannot be researched, and this places a premium on proactively scrutinising the potential risks to this data.
Thirdly, there are opportunities for global leadership. This amendment offers the UK an opportunity to take a world-leading role and become the first European country to take authoritative action to scrutinise data vulnerabilities in this area of critical technology. Scrutinising risks to UK genomic data security also provides a foundation to foster domestic genomics companies and solutions.
Fourthly, this amendment would align the UK with key security partners, particularly, as my noble friend Lord Bethell mentioned, the United States, which has already blacklisted certain genomics companies linked to China and taken steps to protect American citizens’ DNA from potential misuse.
The fifth and final reason is protection of citizens and consumers. This amendment would provide greater guidance and transparency to citizens and consumers whose DNA data is exposed to entities linked to systemic competitors. With all of that said, I thank noble Lords for their consideration and beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
My Lords, Amendment 203 is in my name and the names of the noble Lords, Lord Bethell, Lord Stevenson and Lord Clement-Jones. I thank noble Lords wholeheartedly for their support for this measure through two versions of this Bill. I believe that I speak for all signatories in recognising the support of a huge number of colleagues in both Houses and all parties who have expressed their support for this amendment.
It is my understanding that we are going to hear good news from the Dispatch Box. In the event that I am wrong, I shall have more to say once we have heard from the Minister. In the meantime, I want to explain what the problem is that the amendment seeks to solve.
It is illegal in the UK to possess or distribute child sexual abuse material, including AI-generated or computer-generated child sexual abuse material. The laws that the police use to enforce against CSAM are Section 1 of the Protection of Children Act 1978 and Section 160 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, both of which create offences in respect of indecent photographs or pseudo-photographs of a child. AI content depicting child sexual abuse is illegal under these laws, but creating and distributing the software models needed to generate them is not, which means that those building and distributing software that allows paedophiles to generate bespoke child sexual abuse material have operated with impunity.
There are many services that allow anyone to take any public image and put it in a false situation. Although I have argued elsewhere that AI images should carry a mark of provenance, these services are not the subject of this amendment. This amendment is laser focused on criminalising AI models that are trained on or trained to create child sexual abuse material. They are specific, specialist and currently beyond the reach of the police. The models blend images of children—known children, stock photos, images scraped from social media, school websites or synthetic, fabricated AI depictions of children—with existing CSAM or pornography, and they allow paedophiles to generate bespoke CSAM scenarios of unimaginable depravity, as they are unmitigated by any restrictions that organise the reality of the world. If someone can think, type or say it, they can make it so.
Many of the generative models are distributed for free, but more specialist models are provided on subscription for less than £50 per month. This payment provides any child sexual offender with the ability to generate limitless—and I do mean limitless—child sexual abuse images. But while the police can take action against those who possess those images, they are unable to take action against those who make it possible to do so: the means of production.
A surprising number of people think that AI abuse is a victimless crime, and I want to make it clear that it is not. First, who would be comfortable with the image of their child or grandchild or their neighbour’s child being used in this way? Anyone, adult or child, can appear in AI-generated CSAM. I am not going to say how it can be done, because I do not want my words to be a set of instructions on the public record—but the reality is, any one of us, woman or man, though 99% are women, boy or girl, though it is mostly girls, is a potential victim. If your image is used in this way, you are a victim; if you are forced to watch or copy such imagery, you are a victim; and if you are a child whose real-life abuse is not caught because you are lost in a sea of AI-generated material, you are a victim. Then there is the normalisation of sexual violence against children, which poisons relationships—intimate, familial, across generations, genders and sexes. This is not a victimless crime.
My Lords, I rise today in support of Amendment 203 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron. I declare an interest as a recent guest of Google at its Future Forum policy conference. I apologise for not being able to make Second Reading and for not being present for my last amendment; as a newer Peer, I am very new to this and still learning as I go. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for stepping in.
I commend the wording of the noble Baroness’s amendment, which tackles the full process of training these models, from the collection of data or images to use as training data, all the way through to possessing a model. With these apps easily downloadable on app stores, there is a lack of friction in the process. This means that we have seen horrific cases of children using these apps in schools across the world with devastating consequences. In summer, I met the father of a little girl who had been bullied in this way and sadly took her own life.
I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for this thoughtful and comprehensive amendment, which seeks to future-proof with its inclusion of avatars. We have already seen these threats evolving in the metaverse. I encourage the Government to adopt this amendment so that we can begin to see an end to this abusive market.
I turn to my Amendment 211G. I am very grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Browne of Ladyton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for putting their names to it. Noble Lords may recognise it from my Private Member’s Bill on non-consensual sexually explicit images and videos. I will keep my remarks brief as many of your Lordships were present on Friday.
The amendment seeks to create offences for the non-consensual creation of sexually explicit content and to close the gaps in the Sexual Offences Act. It is, vitally, consent-based, meaning that victims do not have to suffer the trauma of proving the motivation of their perpetrator. It includes solicitation to prevent any creation laws being circumnavigated by asking those in other jurisdictions to create such content for you through the uploading of clothed images to forums. Finally, it includes forced deletion so that victims can clearly see their rights to have the content destroyed from any devices or cloud-based programmes and do not have to live in fear that their perpetrator is still in possession of their content.
This amendment is inspired by the lived experience of victim survivors. The Government have repeatedly said that they are looking for the most suitable legislative vehicle to fulfil their commitment to criminalise the creation of sexually explicit deepfakes. It seems they did not think my Private Member’s Bill was the right vehicle, but it is my firm belief that the most appropriate legislative vehicle is the one that gets there quickest. I am hopeful that the Government will be more receptive to an amendment to their legislation, given the need urgently to tackle this rapidly proliferating form of abuse.
Amendment 211H addresses the problem of sexually explicit audio, which the noble Baroness, Lady Gohir, spoke about so movingly in Friday’s debate. We have seen satirical voice cloning, such as of Gareth Southgate at the 2024 Euros. However, the most state-of-the-art systems now require around three seconds of voice audio data to create speech on a parity with a human. This could be data from a short phone call or a TikTok video. As we are reaching the point where less data is required to create high-quality audio, this now has the potential to be weaponised. There is a real risk that, if we do not future-proof against this while we have the opportunity, it could rapidly develop in the way that sexually explicit deepfake images have. We are already seeing signs of new sexually explicit audio online. Its ease of use combined with its accessibility could create a huge risk in future.
Henry Ajder, the researcher who pioneered the study of non-consensual deepfake image abuse, said:
“2024 has seen AI generated voice audio widely used in spreading political disinformation and new forms of fraud, but much less attention has been paid to its potential as a tool for digital sexual abuse”.
In his research in 2018, he observed several cases of online communities experimenting with voice-cloning capabilities, targeting celebrities to create non-consensual “synthetic phone sex” content. This Bill could be a key opportunity to future-proof against this problem before it becomes widespread.
My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register, particularly as CEO of Muslim Women’s Network UK, which operates a national helpline. I also apologise for not being here at Second Reading, but I felt compelled to speak today after the noble Baroness, Lady Owen, put forward her amendments. Before I speak to them, I support all the amendments from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron—everything she says is always very powerful.
The noble Baroness, Lady Owen, made her case powerfully today, as she did last week. I too spoke in that debate. We were disappointed across the House that the Government were not very supportive of the Bill, but they hinted that its amendments and recommendations could be integrated into another Bill. This Bill could be it.
I will focus my comments on audio recordings, which I raised last week. This element gets overlooked, because we tend to focus on sexually explicit images and video recordings. However, perpetrators will also record audio of sexual activities without consent and either share or threaten to share it. As the noble Baroness, Lady Owen, mentioned, people can create deepfakes very easily with new technologies. A person’s voice is recognisable to the people who know them, so this must be addressed and it can be in this Bill.
Perpetrators of intimate image and intimate audio abuse can instil fear, humiliate and make victims feel unsafe without even sharing, or threatening to share, it. They can manipulate and control their victims simply by making them aware that they have recorded or created these images and recordings.
The Muslim Women’s Network’s helpline has had women call to say that, when relationships have broken down, husbands and boyfriends have made secret audio recordings and then threatened them with those recordings. Sometimes, they have shared them online or with family members and friends. Just knowing that they possess these recordings makes these women feel very unsafe and live in fear. In some communities and cultures where people will be worried about honour-based abuse, women will be even more fearful of the repercussions of these audio recordings being shared.
Whether it is original audio or digitally created deepfake audio, the law needs to be amended to prevent this type of abuse. If the Labour Party and the Government are serious about halving abuse against women and girls, they must shut down every avenue of abuse and accept these amendments.
My Lords, I will speak in support of Amendment 203, which I have signed, and Amendments 211G and 211H in my noble friend Lady Owen’s name.
At Second Reading, the mood of the House was to consider and support the enormous opportunity that comes from AI and to acknowledge the dangers of overregulation that might, somehow, smother this massive opportunity. I endorse that sentiment. However, Amendment 203 addresses computer-generated child sexual abuse material, which I regard as a red line that we should not cross. If we leave this amendment out of the Bill and cannot tackle this one massive issue of CSAM generated by AI, we will leave the whole question of the integrity and purpose of AI vulnerable to misuse by criminals and perverts.
The scale of the issue is already enormous. The Internet Watch Foundation found 275,000 webpages containing child sexual abuse content. On just one forum, 20,000 AI-generated images were posted in a single month, over 3,000 of which depicted criminal acts of child sexual abuse. This is not a hypothetical problem or some kind of visioneering or dystopian imagination; it is happening right now. There are offices filled with people generating this material for their pleasure and for commercial reasons. That is why it is urgent that we move immediately.
Any of us who has heard the testimony of the many victims of sexual abuse will realise that the experience creates lasting anxiety and gut-wrenching trauma. These are not just pictures or videos; they often represent real harm to real people. That is why urgency is so important and this amendment is so critical.
Shockingly, the explosion of this kind of material is enabled by publicly available tools, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, pointed out. The case of Hugh Nelson is a very good example. He was sentenced to 18 years in prison for creating AI videos of children being physically and sexually abused. The tool he used was Daz 3D, AI software that any of us could access from this Room. It is inconceivable that this technology remains unregulated while being weaponised by people such as Hugh Nelson to inflict huge harm. Currently, our law focuses on the possession and distribution of CSAM but fails to address the mechanisms of its creation. That is a loophole and why I support these amendments. I do so for three key reasons.
First, Amendment 203 would criminalise the creation, training and distribution of AI models that can create CSAM. That would mean that Daz and other sites like it must introduce safety-by-design measures to stop their use for creating illegal content. That is not to smother the great and bountiful explosion of beneficial AI; it is to create the most basic guard-rail that should be embedded in any of these dangerous tools.
My Lords, I support Amendment 203 and, in particular, Amendments 211G and 211H from the noble Baroness, Lady Owen. I have little to add to what I said on Friday. I confess to my noble friend the Minister that, in my speech on Friday, I asked whether this issue would be in scope for this Bill, so maybe I gave the noble Baroness the idea. I pay tribute to her agility in being able to act quickly to get this amendment in and include something on audio, following the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Gohir.
I hope that the Minister has similar agility in being able to readjust the Government’s position on this. It is right that this was an urgent manifesto commitment from my party at the last election. It fits entirely with my right honourable friend the Home Secretary’s efforts around violence against women and girls. We should accept and grab this opportunity to deliver quickly by working with the noble Baroness, Lady Owen, and others between now and Report to bring forward an amendment to the Bill that the whole House will support enthusiastically.
My Lords, we have had some powerful speeches in this group, not least from the noble Baronesses, Lady Kidron and Lady Owen, who drafted important amendments that respond to the escalating harms caused by AI-generated sexual abuse material relating to children and adults. The amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, would make it an offence to use personal data or digital information to create digital models or files that facilitate the creation of AI or computer-generated child sexual abuse material. As she outlined and the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, confirmed, it specifically would become an offence to create, train or distribute generative AI models that enable the creation of computer-generated CSAM or priority legal content; to train AI models on CSAM or priority illegal content; or to possess AI models that produce CSAM or priority legal content.
This amendment responds to a growing problem, as we have heard, around computer-generated sexual abuse material and a gap in the law. There is a total lack of safeguards preventing bad actors creating sexual abuse imagery, and it is causing real harm. Sites enabling this abuse are offering tools to harm, humiliate, harass, coerce and cause reputational damage. Without robust legal frameworks, victims are left vulnerable while perpetrators operate with impunity.
The noble Lord, Lord Bethell, mentioned the Internet Watch Foundation. In its report of July, One Step Ahead, it reported on the alarming rise of AI-generated CSAM. In October 2023, in How AI is Being Abused to Create Child Sexual Abuse Imagery, it made recommendations to the Government regarding legislation to strengthen legal frameworks to better address the evolving landscape of AI-generated CSAM and enhance preventive measures against its creation and distribution. It specifically recommended:
“That the Government legislates to make it an offence to use personal data or digital information to create digital models or files that facilitate the creation of AI or computer-generated child sexual abuse material”.
The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, tabled such an amendment to the previous Bill. As she said, she was successful in persuading the then Government to accept it; I very much hope that she will be as successful in persuading this Government to accept her amendment.
Amendments 211G and 211H in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Owen, are a response to the extraordinary fact that one in 14 adults has experienced threats to share intimate images in England and Wales; that rises to one in seven among young women. Research from Internet Matters shows that 49% of young teenagers in the UK aged between 13 and 16—around 750,000 children—said that they were aware of a form of image-based abuse being perpetrated against another young person known to them.
We debated the first of the noble Baroness’s amendments, which is incorporated in her Bill, last Friday. I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Knight; I did not find the Government’s response at all satisfactory. I hope that, in the short passage of time between then and now, they have had time to be at least a little agile, as he requested. UK law clearly does not effectively address non-consensual intimate images. It is currently illegal to share or threaten to share non-consensual intimate images, including deepfakes, but creating them is not yet illegal; this means that someone could create a deepfake image of another person without their consent and not face legal consequences as long as they do not share, or threaten to share, it.
This amendment is extremely welcome. It addresses the gap in the law by criminalising the creation of non-consensual intimate images, including deepfakes. It rightly targets deepfakes due to their rising prevalence and potential for harm, particularly towards women. Research shows that 98% of deepfake videos online are pornographic, with 99% featuring women and girls. This makes it an inherently sexist problem that is a new frontier of violence against women—words that I know the noble Baroness has used.
I also very much welcome the new amendment not contained in her Bill, responding to what the noble Baroness, Lady Gohir, said at its Second Reading last Friday about including audio deepfakes. The words “shut down every avenue”, which I think were used by the noble Baroness, Lady Gohir, are entirely apposite in these circumstances. Despite what the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, said on Friday, I hope that the Government will accept both these amendments and redeem their manifesto pledge to ban the creation of sexually explicit deepfakes, whether audio or video.
My Lords, the current law does not sufficiently protect children from AI-driven CSAM because it is simply such a fast-moving issue. It is a sobering thought that, of all the many wonderful developments of AI that many of us have been predicting and speculating on for so long, CSAM is really driving the technology forward. What a depressing reflection that is.
Overall, AI is developing at an extraordinarily rapid pace and has come with a number of concerning consequences that are not all yet fully understood. However, it is understood that child sexual abuse is completely unacceptable in any and all contexts, and it is right that our law should be updated to reflect the dangers that have increased alongside AI development.
Amendment 203 seeks to create a specific offence for using personal data or digital information to create or facilitate the creation of computer-generated child sexual abuse material. Although legislation is in place to address possessing or distributing such horrendous material, we must prioritise the safety of children in this country and take the law a step further to prevent its creation. Our children must be kept safe and, subject to one reservation, which I will come to in a second, I support the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, to further protect them.
That reservation comes in proposed new subsection 1(c), which includes in the offence the act of collating files that, when combined, enable the creation of sexual abuse material. This is too broad. A great deal of the collation of such material can be conducted by innocent people using innocent materials that are then corrupted or given more poisonous aspects by further training, fine-tuning or combination with other materials by more malign actors. I hope there is a way we can refine this proposed new paragraph on that basis.
Unfortunately, adults can also be the targets of individuals who use AI to digitally generate non-consensual explicit images or audio files of an individual, using their likeness and personal data. I am really pleased that my noble friend Lady Owen tabled Amendments 211G and 211H to create offences for these unacceptable, cruel acts. I support these amendments unambiguously.
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for her Amendment 203. It goes without saying that the Government treat all child sexual abuse material with the utmost seriousness. I can therefore confirm to her and the Committee that the Government will bring forward legislative measures to address the issue in this Session and that the Home Office will make an announcement on this early in the new year.
On Amendments 211G and 211H, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Owen, the Government share concerns that more needs to be done to protect women from deepfake image abuse. This is why the Government committed in their manifesto to criminalise the creation of sexually explicit deepfake images of adults. I reassure the noble Baroness and the whole Committee that we will deliver on our manifesto commitment in this Session. The Government are fully committed to protecting the victims of tech-enabled sexual abuse. Tackling intimate audio would be a new area of law, but we continue to keep that legislation under review.
I also say to the noble Baroness that there is already a process under Section 153 of the Sentencing Act 2020 for the court to deprive a convicted offender of property, including images that have been used for the purpose of committing or facilitating any criminal offence. As well as images, that includes computers and mobile phones that the offender either used to commit intimate image offences or intended to use for that purpose in future. For those reasons and the reassurances I have given today, I hope that noble Lords will feel able to withdraw or not press their amendments.
My Lords, first, I thank the speakers for what were really powerful and largely unequivocal contributions.
I am grateful to the Minister. I was expecting something more a tiny bit expansive but I will take, on record, that we are going to make it a new offence for a person to make, adapt, possess, supply or offer to supply a CSA image generator, including any service, program or information in electronic form that is made, or adapted for use, to create or facilitate the creation of CSA material. I am expecting something that covers all that and I am expecting it shortly, as the Minister said. I again thank the Safeguarding Minister, Jess Phillips, for her tremendous efforts, as well as some of the civil servants who helped make it leap from one Government to the next. We can be content with that.
I feel less comfortable about the Minister’s answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Owen. We, women victims, experience the gaps in the law. If there are gaps in the law, it is our job, in this Committee and in the other place, to fix them. We all want the same thing; I know the Minister well enough to know that she wants the same thing. So I am going to push back and say that I will support the noble Baroness, Lady Owen, in trying to bring this measure back through this Bill. I believe that the mood of the Committee is with her so whatever mistakes there are on her patch will be fixed before Report, because this is not something that can wait. Kids and women are being hurt.
We all want to celebrate the digital world. I was an early adopter. I had one of those cameras on my computer before anyone else I knew did, so I could not speak to anyone; there was no one to talk to. We want this world to be good. We are not saying something different. On behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Owen, who is nodding, let me just say that we will come back to this issue. I thank the Minister for her assurance on Amendment 203 and beg leave to withdraw.
My Lords, I am beginning to feel like the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, but I reassure everyone that this is the last day of Committee.
I shall speak to the amendments in this group in my name and that of the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson—he is very sorry not to be in his place today—and Lord Clement-Jones, and my noble friend Lord Freyberg. I thank the News Media Association for its briefing and support. I also thank, for their wonderful and unlikely support, Sir Paul McCartney, Kate Mosse, Margaret Drabble and Richard Osman, alongside the many creative artists who have spoken, written and tweeted and are among the 37,000 people who signed a petition calling for swift action to protect their livelihoods.
I have already declared my interests for the Committee but I add, to be clear, that my husband is a writer of film, theatre and opera; and that, before I came to your Lordships’ House, I spent 30 years as a movie director. As such, I come from and live alongside a community for whom the unlicensed and illegal use of copyrighted content by generative AI developers is an existential issue. I am therefore proud to move and speak to amendments that would protect one of our most financially significant economic sectors, which contributes £126 billion in gross value added to UK GDP; employs 2.4 million people; and brings so much joy and understanding to the world.
Text and data mining without licence or permission is illegal in the UK, unless it is done specifically for research. This means that what we have witnessed over the past few years is intellectual property theft on a vast scale. Like many of the issues we have discussed in Committee, this wrongdoing has happened in plain sight of regulators and successive Governments. I am afraid that yesterday’s announcement of a consultation did not bring the relief the industry needs. As Saturday’s Times said,
“senior figures in the creative sector are scathing about the government plans”,
suggesting that the Secretary of State has drunk Silicon Valley’s “Kool-Aid” and that rights reservation is nonsense. An official at the technical briefing for the consultation said that
“rights reservation is a synonym for opt out”.
Should shopkeepers have to opt out of shoplifters? Should victims of violence have to opt out of attacks? Should those who use the internet for banking have to opt out of fraud? I could go on. I struggle to think of another situation where someone protected by law must proactively wrap it around themselves on an individual basis.
The value of our creative industries is not in question; nor is the devastation that they are experiencing as a result of non-payment of IP. A recent report from the International Confederation of Societies of Authors and Composers, which represents more than 5 million creators worldwide, said that AI developers and providers anticipate the market for GAI music and audiovisual content increasing from €3 billion to €64 billion by 2028 —much of it derived from the unlicensed reproduction of creators’ works, representing a transfer of economic value from creators to AI companies. Let there be no misunderstanding of the scale of the theft: we already know that the entire internet has been downloaded several times without the consent or financial participation of millions of copyright holders.
This transfer of economic value from writers, visual artists and composers across all formats and all genres to AI companies is not theoretical. It is straightforward: if you cannot get properly paid for your work, you cannot pay the rent or build a career. Nor should we be taken in by the “manufactured uncertainty” that Silicon Valley-funded gen AI firms and think tanks have sought to create around UK copyright law. Lobbyists and their mouthpieces, such as TechUK, speak of a lack of clarity—a narrative that may have led to Minister Chris Bryant claiming that the Government’s consultation was a “win-win”. However, I would like the Minister to explain where the uncertainty on who owns these copyrighted works lies. Also, where is the win for the creative industries in the government proposal, which in one fell swoop deprives artists of control and payment for their work—unless they actively wrap the law around them and say “no”—leaving them at the mercy of pirates and scrapers?
Last week, at a meeting in this House attended by a wide range of people, from individual artists to companies representing some of the biggest creative brands in the world, a judge from the copyright court said categorically that copyright lies with the creator. AI does not create alone; it depends on data and material then to create something else. A technological system that uses it without permission is theft. The call for a new copyright law is a tactic that delays the application of existing law while continuing to steal. Unlike the physical world, where the pursuit of a stolen masterpiece may eventually result in something of value being returned to its owner, in the digital world, once your IP is stolen, the value is absorbed and fragmented, hidden amid an infinite number of other data points and onward uses. If we continue to delay, much of the value of the creative industries’ rich dataset will be absorbed already.
The government consultation has been greeted with glee overnight by the CCIA, which lobbies for the biggest tech firms. After congratulating the Government at some length, it says that
“it will be critical to ensure that the transparency requirements are realistic and do not ask AI developers to compromise their work by giving away trade secrets and highly sensitive information that could jeopardise the safety and security of their models”.
In plain English, that means, “We have persuaded the Government to give up creatives’ copyright, and now the campaign begins to protect our own ‘sensitive business information’”. If that is not sufficiently clear to the Committee, that means they are, first, claiming their own IP while stealing others, while simultaneously pushing back at transparency, because they do not want an effective opt-out.
The government consultation does not even contain an option of retaining the current copyright framework and making it workable with transparency provisions—the provisions of the amendments in front of us. The Government have sold the creative industries down the river. Neither these amendments nor the creative community are anti-tech; on the contrary, they simply secure a path by which creatives participate in the world that they create. They ensure the continuous sustainable production of human-generated content into the future, for today’s artists and those of tomorrow. The amendments do not extend the fundamentals of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, but they ensure that the law can be enforced on both AI developers and third parties that scrape on their behalf. They force transparency into the clandestine black box.
Amendment 204 requires the Secretary of State to set out the steps by which copyright law must be observed by web crawlers and others, making it clear that it applies during the entire lifecycle, from pretraining onwards, regardless of jurisdiction—and it must take place only with a licence or express permission.
Amendment 205 requires the Secretary of State to set out the steps by which web crawlers and general-purpose AI models are transparent. This includes but is not limited to providing a name for a crawler, identifying the legal entity responsible for it, a list of purposes for which it is engaged and what data it has passed on. It creates a transparent supply chain. Crucially, it requires operators of crawlers to disclose the businesses to which they sell the data they have scraped, making it more difficult for AI developers that purchase illegally scraped content to avoid compliance with UK copyright law, overturning current practice in which the operators of crawlers can obscure their own identity or ownership, making it difficult and time-consuming—potentially impossible—to combat illegal scraping.
Amendment 206 requires the Secretary of State to set out by regulation what information web crawlers and general-purpose models must disclose regarding copyrighted works—information such as URL, time and type of data collected and a requirement to inform the copyright holder. This level of granularity, which the tech companies are already pushing against, provides a route by which IP holders can choose or contest the ways in which their work is used, as well as provide a route for payment.
In sum, the amendments create a clear and simple process for identifying which copyright works are scraped, by whom, for what purpose and from which datasets. They provide a process by which existing law can be implemented.
I shall just mention a few more points before I finish. First, there is widespread concern that mashing up huge downloads of the internet, including the toxic, falsehoods and an increasing proportion of artificially generated or synthetic data, will cause it to degenerate or collapse, putting a block on the innovation that the Government and all of us want to see, as well as raising serious safety concerns about the information ecosystem. A dynamic licensing market would provide a continuous flow of identified human-created content from which AI can learn.
Secondly, the concept of a voluntary opt-out regime—or, as the Government prefer, rights reservation—is already dead. In the DPDI Bill, I and others put forward an amendment to make robots.txt part of the robots’ exclusion protocol opt-in. In plain English, that would have meant that the voluntary scheme in which any rights holder can put a note on their digital door saying “Don’t scrape” would have been reversed to be mandatory. Over the last few months, we have seen scrapers ignoring the agreed protocol, even when activated. I hope the Minister will explain why he thinks that creators should bear the burden and the scrapers should reap the benefit and whether the Government have done an impact assessment on how many rights holders will manage to opt out versus how many would opt in, given the choice.
My Lords, I support Amendments 204, 205 and 206, to which I have attached my name. In doing so, I declare my interest as someone with a long-standing background in the visual arts and as an artist member of the Design and Artists Copyright Society.
These amendments, tabled and superbly moved by my noble friend and supported by the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Clement-Jones, seek to address a deep crisis in the creative sector whereby millions upon millions of creative works have been used to train general-purpose or generative AI models without permission or pay. While access to data is a fundamental aspect of this Bill, which in many cases has positive and legitimate aims, the unauthorised scraping of copyright-protected artworks, news stories, books and so forth for the use of generative AI models has significant downstream impacts. It affects the creative sectors’ ability to grow economically, to maximise their valuable assets and to retain the authenticity that the public rely on.
AI companies have used artists’ works in the training, development and deployment of AI systems without consent, despite this being a requirement under UK copyright law. As has been said, the narrow exception to copyright for text and data mining for specific research purposes does not extend to AI models, which have indiscriminately scraped creative content such as images without permission, simply to build commercial products that allow users to generate their own versions of a Picasso or a David Hockney work.
This amendment would clarify the steps that operators of web crawlers and general-purpose AI models must take to comply with UK copyright law. It represents a significant step forward in resolving the legal challenges brought by rights holders against AI companies over their training practices. Despite high-profile cases arising in the USA and the UK over unauthorised uses of content by AI companies, the reality is that individual artists simply cannot access judicial redress, given the prohibitive cost of litigation.
DACS, which represents artists’ copyright, surveyed its members and found that they were not technophobic or against AI in principle but that their concerns lay with the legality and ethics of current AI operators. In fact, 84% of respondents would sign up for a licensing mechanism to be paid when their work is used by an AI with their consent. This amendment would clarify that remuneration is owed for AI companies’ use of artists’ works across the entire development life cycle, including during the pre-training and fine-tuning stages.
Licensing would additionally create the legal certainty needed for AI companies to develop their products in the UK, as the unlawful use of works creates a litigation risk which deters investment, especially from SMEs that cannot afford litigation. DACS has also been informed by its members that commissioning clients have requested artists not to use AI products in order to avoid liability issues around its input and output, demonstrating a lack of trust or uncertainty about using AI.
This amendment would additionally settle ongoing arguments around whether compliance with UK copyright law is required where AI training takes place in other jurisdictions. By affirming its applicability where AI products are marketed in the UK, the amendment would ensure that both UK-based artists and AI companies are not put at a competitive disadvantage due to international firms’ ability to conduct training in a different jurisdiction.
One of the barriers to licensing copyright is the lack of transparency over what works have been scraped by AI companies. The third amendment in this suite of proposals, Amendment 206, seeks to address this. It would require operators of web crawlers and general-purpose AI models to be transparent about the copyright works they have scraped.
Currently, artists and creators face significant challenges in protecting their intellectual property rights in the age of AI. While tools such as Spawning AI’s “Have I Been Trained?” attempt to help creators identify whether their work has been used in AI training datasets, these initiatives provide only surface-level information. Creators may learn that their work was included in training data, but they remain in the dark about crucial details—specifically, how their work was used and which companies used it. This deeper level of transparency is essential for artists to enforce their IP rights effectively. Unfortunately, the current documentation provided by AI companies, such as data cards and model cards, falls short of delivering this necessary transparency, leaving creators without the practical means to protect their work.
Amendment 206 addresses the well-known black box issue that currently plagues the AI market, by requiring the disclosure of information about the URLs accessed by internet scrapers, information that can be used to identify individual works, the timeframe of data collection and the type of data collected, among other things. The US Midjourney litigation is a prime example of why this is necessary for UK copyright enforcement. It was initiated only after a leak revealed the names of more than 16,000 non-consenting artists whose works were allegedly used to train the tool.
Creators, including artists, should not find themselves in a position where they must rely on leaks to defend their intellectual property rights. By requiring AI companies to regularly update their own records, detailing what works were used in the training process and providing this to rights holders on request, this amendment could also create a vital cultural shift towards accountability. This would represent an important step away from the “Move fast and break things” culture pervasive amongst the Silicon Valley-based AI companies at the forefront of AI development, and a step towards preserving the gold-standard British IP framework.
Lastly, I address Amendment 205, which requires operators of internet crawlers and general-purpose AI models to be transparent about the identity and purpose of their crawlers, and not penalise copyright holders who choose to deny scraping for AI by down ranking their content in, or removing their content from, a search engine. Operators of internet crawlers that scrape artistic works and other copyright-protected content can obscure their identity, making it difficult and time-consuming for individual artists and the entities that represent their copyright interests to identify these uses and seek redress for illegal scraping.
Inclusion in search-engine results is crucial for visual artists, who rely on the visibility these provide for their work to build their reputation and client base and generate sales. At present, web operators that choose to deny scraping by internet crawlers risk the downrating or even removal of their content from search engines, as the most commonly used tools cannot distinguish between do-not-train protocols added to a site. This amendment will ensure that artists who choose to deny scraping for AI training are not disadvantaged by current technical restrictions and lose out on the exposure generated by search engines.
Finally, I will say a few words about the Government’s consultation launched yesterday, because it exposes a deeply troubling approach to creators’ IP rights, as has already been said so eloquently by the noble Baroness. For months, we have been urged to trust the Government to find the right balance between creators’ rights and AI innovation, yet their concept of balance has now been revealed for what it truly is: an incredibly unfair trade-off that gives away the rights of hundreds of thousands of creators to AI firms in exchange for vague promises of transparency.
Their proposal is built on a fundamentally flawed premise—promoted by tech lobbyists—that there is a lack of clarity in existing copyright law. This is completely untrue: the use of copyrighted content by AI companies without a licence is theft on a mass scale, as has already been said, and there is no objective case for the new text and data-mining exception. What we find in this consultation is a cynical rebranding of the opt-out mechanism as a rights reservation system. While they are positioning this as beneficial for rights holders through potential licensing revenues, the reality is that this is not achievable, yet the Government intend to leave it to Ministers alone to determine what constitutes
“effective, accessible, and widely adopted”
protection measures.
This is deeply concerning, given that no truly feasible rights reservation system for AI has been implemented anywhere in the world. Rights holders have been unequivocal: opt-out mechanisms—whatever the name they are given—are fundamentally unworkable in practice. In today’s digital world, where content can be instantly shared by anyone, creators are left powerless to protect their work. This hits visual artists particularly hard, as they must make their work visible to earn a living.
The evidence from Europe serves as a stark warning: opt-out provisions have failed to protect creators’ rights, forcing the EU to introduce additional transparency requirements in the recent AI Act. Putting it bluntly, simply legalising unauthorised use of creative works cannot be the answer to mass-scale copyright infringement. This is precisely why our proposed measures are crucial: they will maintain the existing copyright framework whereby AI companies must seek licences, while providing meaningful transparency that enables copyright holders to track the use of their work and seek proper redress, rather than blindly repeating proven failures.
My Lords, I speak in support of my noble friend Lady Kidron’s amendments. I declare an interest as a visual artist, and of course visual creators, as my noble friend Lord Freyberg has very well described, are as much affected by this as musicians, journalists and novelists. I am particularly grateful to the Design and Artists Copyright Society and the Authors’ Licensing and Collecting Society for their briefings.
A particular sentence in the excellent briefing for this debate by the News Media Association, referred to by my noble friend Lady Kidron, caught my eye:
“There is no ‘balance’ to be struck between creators’ copyrights and GAI innovation: IP rights are central to GAI innovation”.
This is a crucial point. One might say that data does not grow on a magic data tree. All data originates from somewhere, and that will include data produced creatively. One might also say that such authorship should be seen to precede any interests in use and access. It certainly should not be something tagged on to the end, as an afterthought. I appreciate that the Government will be looking at these things separately, but concerns of copyright should really be part of any Bill where data access is being legislated for. As an example, we are going to be discussing the smart fund a bit later in an amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, but I can attest to how tricky it was getting that amendment into a Bill that should inherently be accommodating these interests.
My Lords I have been very impressed by the speeches of my noble friends Lady Kidron and Lord Freyberg, so I will be very brief. I declare in interest as a television producer who produces content. I hope that it has not been scraped up by AI machines, but who knows? I support the amendments in this group.
I know that AI is going to solve many problems in our economy and our society. However, in their chase for the holy grail of promoting AI, I join other noble Lords in asking the Government not to push our creative economy under the bus. It is largely made up of SMEs and single content producers, who do not have the money to pursue powerful AI companies to get paid for the use of their content in training their AI models. It is up to noble Lords to help shape regulations that protect our data and copyright laws and can be fully deployed in the defence of the creative economy.
I too have read the Government’s Copyright and Artificial Intelligence consultation paper, published yesterday. The foreword says:
“The proposals include a mechanism for rights holders to reserve their rights”,
which I, like my noble friend Lady Kidron and others, interpret as meaning that creators’ works can be used by AI developers unless they opt out and require licensing for the use of their work. The Government are following the EU example and going for the opt-out model. I think that the European Union is beginning to realise that it is very difficult to make that work, and it brings an unfairness to content producers. Surely, the presumption should be that AI web crawlers should get agreement before using content. The real problem is that content producers do not even know when their content has been used. Even the AI companies sometimes do not know what content has been used. Surely, the opt-out measure is like having your house raided and then asking the burglar what he has taken.
I call on the Minister to work with us to create an opt-in regime. Creators’ works should be used only when already licensed by the AI companies. The companies say they usually do not use content, only data points. Surely that is like saying to a photographer, “We’ve used 99% of the pixels in a picture but not the whole picture”. If even one pixel is used, the photographer needs to know and be compensated.
The small companies and single content producers of our country are the backbone of our economy, as other noble Lords have said. They are threatened by this technology, in which we have placed so much faith. I ask the Minister to respond favourably to Amendments 204, 205 and 206 to ensure that we have fairness between some of the biggest AI players in the world and the hard-pressed people who create content.
My Lords, I support Amendments 204, 205 and 206 in the names of my noble friends Lady Kidron and Lord Freyberg, and of the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Clement-Jones, in what rapidly seems to be becoming the Cross-Bench creative club.
I spent 25 years as a professional photographer in London from the late 1980s. When I started, retouchers would retouch negatives and slides by hand, charging £500 an hour. Photoshop stopped that. Professional film labs such as Joe’s Basement and Metro would work 24 hours a day. Snappy Snaps and similar catered for the amateur market. Digital cameras stopped that. Many companies provided art prints, laminating and sundry items for professional portfolios. PDFs and websites stopped that. Many different forms of photography, particularly travel photography, were taken away when picture libraries cornered the market and drove down commissions to unsustainable levels. There were hundreds if not thousands of professional photographers in the country. The smartphone has virtually stopped that.
All these changes were evolution and the result of a world becoming more digitised, but AI web crawlers are different, illegally scraping images without consent or payment then potentially killing the trade of the victim by setting up in competition. This is a parasite, but not in the true sense, because a parasite is careful to keep its victims alive.
My Lords, I very much support these amendments. I declare an interest as an owner of written copyright in the Good Schools Guide and as a father of an illustrator. In both contexts, it is very important that we get intellectual property right, as I think the Government recognised in what they put out yesterday. However, I share the scepticism of those who have spoken as to whether the Government’s ideas can be made to work.
It is really important that we get this straight. For those of us operating at the small end of the scale, IP is under continual threat from established media. I write maybe 10 or a dozen letters a year to large media outfits reminding them of the borders, the latest to the Catholic Herald—it appears not even the 10 commandments have force on them. But what AI can do is a huge measure more difficult to deal with. I can absolutely see, by talking to Copilot, that it has gone through my paywall and absorbed the contents of the Good Schools Guide, but who am I supposed to go at for this? Who has actually done the trespassing? Who is responsible for it? Where is the ownership? It is difficult to enforce copyright, even by writing a polite letter to someone saying, “Please don’t do this”. The Government appear to propose a system of polite letters saying, “Oh dear, it looks as if you might have borrowed my copyright. Please, can you give it back?”
This is not practically enforceable, and it will not result in people who care about IP locating their businesses here. Quite clearly, we do not have ownership of the big AI systems, and it is unlikely that we will have ownership of them—all that will be overseas. What we can do is create IP. If we produce a system where we do not defend the IP that we produce, then fairly rapidly, those IP creators who are capable of being mobile will go elsewhere to places that will defend their IP. It is something that a Government who are interested in growth really ought to be interested in defending. I hope that we will see some real progress in the course of the Bill going through the House.
My Lords, I declare my AI interests as set out in the register. I will speak in support of Amendments 204, 205 and 206, which have been spoken to so inspiringly by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and so well by the noble Lords, Lord Freyberg, Lord Lucas and Lord Hampton, the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and the noble Viscount, Lord Colville. Each demonstrated different facets of the issue.
I co-chair the All-Party Group on AI and chaired the AI Select Committee a few years ago. I wrote a book earlier this year on AI regulation, which had a namecheck from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, at Question Time, which I was very grateful for. Before that, I had a career as an IP lawyer, defending copyright and creativity, and in this House, I have been my party’s creative industries spokesperson. The question of IP and the training of generative AI models is a key issue for me.
This is the case not just in the UK but around the world. Getty and the New York Times are suing in the United States, as are many writers, artists and musicians. It was at the root of the Hollywood actors’ and writers’ strikes last year. It is one thing to use the tech—many of us are AI enthusiasts—but it is another to be at the mercy of it.
Close to home, the FT has pointed out, using the index published by the creator of an unlicensed dataset called Books3, published online, that it is possible to identify that over 85 books written by 33 Members of the House of Lords have been pirated to train AI models from household names, such as Meta, Microsoft and Bloomberg. Although it is absolutely clear that we know that the use of copyrighted works to train AI models is contrary to UK copyright law, the laws around the transparency of these activities have not caught up. As we have heard, as well as using pirated e-books in their training data, AI developers scrape the internet for valuable professional journalism and other media, in breach of both the terms of service of websites and copyright law, to train commercial AI models. At present, developers can do this without declaring their identity, or they may use IP scraped to appear in a search index for the completely different commercial purpose of training AI models.
How can rights owners opt out of something that they do not know about? AI developers will often scrape websites or access other pirated material before they launch an LLM in public. This means that there is no way for IP owners to opt out of their material being taken before its inclusion in these models. Once used to train these models, the commercial value, as we have heard, has already been extracted from IP scraped without permission, with no way to delete data from these models.
The next wave of AI models responds to user queries by browsing the web to extract valuable news and information from professional news websites. This is known as retrieval-augmented generation—RAG. Without payment for extracting this commercial value, AI agents built by companies such as Perplexity, Google and Meta will, in effect, free-ride on the professional hard work of journalists, authors and creators. At present, such crawlers are hard to block. There is no market failure; there are well-established licensing solutions. There is no uncertainty around the existing law; the UK is absolutely clear that commercial organisations, including gen AI developers, must license the data that they use to train their large language models.
Here, as the Government’s intentions become clearer, the political, business and creative temperature is rising. Just this week, we have seen the creation of a new campaign, the Creative Rights in AI Coalition—CRAIC —across the creative and news industries and, recently, Ed Newton-Rex reached more than 30,000 signatories from among creators and creative organisations.
The noble Lord has enormous experience in these areas and will be particularly aware of the legal difficulties in enforcing rights. Given what he said, with which I entirely agree—indeed, I agree with all the speakers in supporting these amendments—and given the extraordinary expense of litigating to enforce rights, how does he envisage there being an adequate system to allow those who have had their data scraped in the way that he describes to obtain redress or, rather, suitable remedies?
I thank the noble Lord for that. He is anticipating a paragraph in my notes, which says that, although it is not set out in the amendments, robust enforcement of these provisions will be critical to their success. This includes oversight from an expert regulator that is empowered to issue significant penalties, including fines for non-compliance. There is a little extra work to do there, and I would very much like to see the Intellectual Property Office gain some teeth.
I am going to close. We are nearly at the witching hour, but it is clear that AI developers are seeking to use their lobbying clout—the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, mentioned the Kool-Aid—to persuade the Government that new copyright law is required. Instead, this amendment would clarify that UK copyright law applies to gen AI developers. The creative industries, and noble Lords from across the House as their supporters, will rally around these amendments and vigorously oppose government plans for a new text and data- mining exception.
My Lords, I have very little to add because I entirely support all these amendments. I am always concerned when I see the words “lack of clarity” in a context like this. The basic principle of copyright law, whereby one provides a licence and is paid for that licence by agreement, has been well established. There is no need for any further clarity in this context, as in earlier contexts of copyright law.
I should declare an interest as the chairman of IPSO, the regulator of 95% of the printed news media and its online versions. I have been impressed by the News Media Association’s briefings. It has identified important issues. I am extremely concerned about what appears to have been a considerable amount of lobbying by big tech in this area. It reminds me of what took place when your Lordships’ House considered the Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill. A low point for me was when we were told that it would be very difficult to establish a proper system otherwise Google’s human rights would be somehow infringed. It is extremely important that this so-called balance does not mean that those who create original material protected by the copyright Acts have their rights violated in order to satisfy the interests of big tech.
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Camrose apologises to the Committee but he has had to leave early for unavoidable family reasons. Needless to say, he will read Hansard carefully.
It is our belief that a society that fails to value products of the mind will never be an innovative society. We are fortunate to live in that innovative society now and we must fight to ensure it remains one. Data scraping and AI crawlers pose both novel and substantial challenges to copyright protection laws and mechanisms. His Majesty’s Official Opposition are pleased that these amendments have been brought forward to address those challenges, which differ from those posed by traditional search engine crawlers.
Generally speaking, in creating laws about data we have been able to follow a north star of replicating online the values and behaviours we take for granted offline. This was of real service to us in the Online Safety Act, for example. In many ways, however, that breaks down when we come to AI and copyright. Offline, we are happy to accept that an artist, author, musician or inventor has been influenced by existing works in their field. Indeed, we sometimes celebrate that fact, and we have a strong intuitive sense of when influence has crossed the line into copying. This means that we can form an intuitive assessment of whether a copyright has been breached offline based on what creators produce, not what content they have consumed, which we expect to be extensive. With an AI crawler, that intuition and model break down. There are simply too many variables and too much information. We have no choice but to go after the inputs.
With that in mind, it would be helpful to set out the differences between traditional search engine crawlers and AI crawlers. Indexing crawlers used by the search engines we are all familiar with store information in their indexes. This then determines the results of the search. However, AI crawlers generally fall into two categories. The training crawlers scrape the web, collecting data used to train large language models. Live retrieval crawlers pull in live data from the web and incorporate it into chatbot responses.
Historically, the robots exclusion protocol—the plain text file identified as robots.txt—has been embedded into website domains, specifying to crawlers what data they can and cannot access in part or all of the domain. This has been used for the past 30 years to protect information or IP from indexing crawlers. Although the robots exclusion protocol has worked relatively well for many years, in some ways it is not fit for the web as it exists today—especially when dealing with AI crawlers.
To exclude crawlers from websites, we must be able to identify them. This was, for the most part, workable in the early days of the internet when there were relatively few search engines and, correspondingly, few indexing crawlers. However, given the rapidly increasing number of AI services, with their corresponding crawlers trawling the web, it becomes impossible to exclude them all. To make matters worse, some AI crawlers operate in relative secrecy. Their names, which can be viewed through domain holder access logs, reveal little of their purpose.
Furthermore, the robots exclusion protocol is not an enforceable agreement; it is more like a polite request. Based on that, a crawler can simply ignore a robots.txt file and scrape the data anyway. It is also worth noting that even if a crawler acknowledges and obeys a robots.txt file, the data may be inadvertently scraped from a third-party source who has lifted the data of intellectual property either manually or using a crawler that does not obey the robots.txt files. That can then be made available without the protection of the robots exclusion protocol. This raises an unsettling question: how do we protect intellectual property and data more generally from these AI crawlers, whose developers decline the voluntary limitations placed on them?
At this point, I turn to the amendments. Amendment 204 is a great initial step toward requiring crawler operators to respect UK copyright law. However, this provision would apply only to products and services of such operators that are marketed in the United Kingdom. What about those from outside the UK? Indeed, as my noble friend Lord Camrose has often argued, any AI lab that does not want to follow our laws can infringe the same copyright with impunity in another jurisdiction. Unless and until we address the offshoring problem, we continue to have real concerns as to the enforceability of any regulations we implement here.
I will address the individual subsections in Amendment 205. Proposed new subsection (1) would require crawlers to reveal their identity, including their name, who is responsible for them, their purpose, who receives their scraped data, and a point of contact. This is an excellent idea, although we are again concerned about enforceability due to offshoring. Proposed new subsection (2) requires this information to be easily accessible. We are sure this would be beneficial, but our concerns remain about infringements in other jurisdictions.
Requiring the deployment of crawlers with distinct purposes in proposed new subsection (3) is an excellent idea as it would allow data controllers to choose what data can be trawled and for what purpose, to the extent possible using the robots exclusion protocol. We do, however, have concerns about proposed new subsection (4). We are not sure how it would be possible for the exclusion of an AI crawler not to impact the findability of content. We assume this could be achieved only if we mandated the continued use of indexing crawlers.
As for Amendment 206, requiring crawler operators to regularly disclose the information scraped from copyrighted sources and make it accessible to copyright holders on their request is an interesting suggestion. We would be curious to hear how this would work in practice, particularly given the vast scale—some of those models crawl billions of documents, generating trillions of tokens. Where would that data be published? Given the scale of data-scraping, how would copyright holders know where to look for this information? If the operator was based outside the UK, how would disclosure be enforced? Our view is that watermarking technology can come to the rescue, dependent of course on an internationally accepted technical standard for machine-readable watermarks that contain licensing information.
As someone who has spent my life creating IP, protecting IP and sometimes giving IP away, I welcome this debate. I am extremely grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for a very thoughtful set of proposals. The fact that many noble Lords have spoken in this debate shows that the rapid development of AI has clearly raised concerns about how to protect the creative industries. The Government take this very seriously. As the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, pointed out, we need to get it right, which is why we have launched a very wide-ranging consultation on a package of interventions to address copyright and AI issues. It is an important first step in an area where the existing situation is clearly not working and we run the risk of many long-lasting court cases, which will not help the situation in which we find ourselves.
We are committed both to supporting human-centred creativity and to the potential of AI to unlock new horizons. Many in the creative industries use AI very widely already. Our goal is to support AI innovation in the UK while maintaining robust protection for creators and our vibrant creative industry. In response to a point that the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, raised earlier, option 1 in the consultation refers to existing copyright law and asks for views about maintaining and increasing it. The consultation sets out the Government’s objectives for this area and proposes a range of measures on which we are seeking views. Specifically, it aims to support rights-holders to continue to exercise control over the use of their content and their ability to seek remuneration for this. As many noble Lords have pointed out, that has to be made easy and technically feasible. It also promotes greater trust and transparency and proposes mechanisms by which you can see who is looking at the data and what they are doing with it.
Finally, it aims to support the development of world-leading AI models in the UK by ensuring that access can be appropriately wide but, of course, lawful and with the approval of those it is got from. This includes the subjects of the noble Baroness’s amendments. The consultation seeks views on technological measures that can provide greater control over access to and use of the online material, as well as transparency measures that help copyright owners understand whether their work is being used by AI developers. Again, this needs to be made easy. Various technologies are coming along which can do that, including, as has been said, the watermarking approach.
Much of this needs to be wrapped into an approach to standards. It is important that this is done in a way that is reproducible and reliable. Through this consultation, we will address some of these issues and seek to continue to get input from stakeholders on all of them. We will also work towards internationally interoperable solutions, as raised by many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, and the noble Earl, Lord Effingham.
I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, that a vibrant and effective licensing approach—a system that works well and provides access and rights—is important. She asked about an impact assessment. I do not have the information with me now, but I will write. I look forward to updating her on this work in due course and, in the meantime, hope that she is content to withdraw her amendment.
Does the Minister recognise the characterisation of noble Lords who have said that this is theft? Currently, we have a law and copyright is being taken without consent or remuneration. Does he agree with them that this is what the creative industries and, I presume, some of his community are experiencing?
At the moment we have a system where it is unclear what the rights are and how they are being protected, and therefore things are being done which people are unable to get compensation for. We can see that in the court cases going on at the moment. There is uncertainty which needs to be resolved.
I thank the Minister for his answer and welcome him very much to the Dispatch Box—I have not yet had the pleasure of speaking with him in a debate. I hope he saw the shaking heads when he answered my question about theft and this lack of clarity. If you say “Write me the opening chapter of a Stephen King novel”, and the AI can do it, you can bet your bottom dollar that it has absorbed a Stephen King novel. We know that a lot of this material is in there and that it is not being paid for. That goes for issues big and small.
I understand that it is late and we have more to do—I have more to say on other issues—but I want to reiterate three points. First, creative people are not anti-tech; they just want control over the things they create. AI is a creation on top of a creation, and creative people want to be paid for their efforts and to be in control of them. I am not sure whether I can mention it, because it was in a private meeting, but a brand that many people in most countries will have heard of said: “We need to protect our brand. We mean something. An approximation of us is not us. It is not just the money; it is also the control”.
I also make the point that, earlier this week, Canal+ had its IPO on the London Stock Exchange. I heard the CEO answer the question, “Why is it that Canal+ decided to come and do its IPO in the UK when everybody else is scarpering elsewhere?”, by saying a lot of very warm-hearted things about Paddington Bear, then, “Because you have very good copyright laws”. That is what they said. I just want to mention that.
Finally, I am grateful to the Minister for saying that there is the option of staying with the status quo; I will look at that and try to understand it clearly. However, when he writes about the issue that I raised in terms of opting in or opting out—I am grateful to him for doing so—I would also like an answer about where the Government think the money is going to go. What is the secondary value of the AI companies, which are largely headquartered in the US? Where will the IP, which those companies have already said they want to protect—they did so in their response to the Government’s consultation; I said that it in my speech, for anyone who was not listening—go? I would like the Government to say what their plans are, if we lose the £1.6 billion and the 2.4 million jobs, to replace that money and those jobs, as well as their incredible soft power.
With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
My Lords, it is a privilege to introduce Amendment 207. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Arbuthnot and Lord Clement-Jones, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans, who is unfortunately unwell but wanted me to express his support.
I make it clear that, although I may use the Horizon scandal as an example, this amendment is neither focused on nor exclusive to the miscarriage of justice, malevolence and incompetence related to that scandal. It is far broader than that so, when the Minister replies, I really hope that he or she—I am not sure which yet—will not talk about the criminality of the Post Office, as previously, but rather concentrate on the law that contributed to allowing a miscarriage of justice at that scale. That is what this amendment seeks to address.
I explained during debates on the DPDI Bill that, since 1999, courts have applied
“a common law presumption, in both criminal and civil proceedings, of the proper functioning of machines—that is to say”,
the information from the computer can be presumed to be reliable. I went on to say:
“In principle, there is a low threshold for rebutting this presumption but, in practice … a person challenging evidence derived from a computer will typically have no””.—[Official Report, 24/4/24; col. GC 573.]
knowledge of the circumstance in which the system in question was operated so cannot possibly demonstrate that it failed. As Paul Marshall, the barrister who represented some of the postmasters, explains, this puts the onus on the defendant to explain to the jury the problems they encountered when all they could actually do was point to the shortfalls they had experienced—in the Horizon case, that the cash received did not match the balancing figure on the computer screen. They did not have access to the system or the record of its past failures, and they had no knowledge of what the vulnerabilities were. They only knew that it did not work.
The reality is that anyone who knows the first thing about programming or computer science knows that there are bugs in the system. Indeed, any one of us who has agreed to an update for an app or computer software understands that bug fixing is a common aspect of program maintenance. When I discussed this amendment with a computer scientist of some standing, he offered the opinion that there are likely to be 50 bugs per 1,000 lines of code; many complex systems run to tens of millions of lines of code.
Perhaps the most convincing thing of all is looking at software contracts. For the past 20 years at least, a contract is likely to contain words to this effect: “No warranty is provided that the operation of the software will be uninterrupted or error free, or that all software errors will be corrected”. This same clause applies in contracts when we say yes to a new Apple upgrade when we sign a EULA—an end-user licence agreement. In plain English, for two decades at least, those who provide software have insisted that computer information is not to be considered reliable. That is written into their commercial agreements, so the fact that computer information is not reliable is agreed by those who know about computer information.
My Lords, I declare my interest as a member of the Horizon Compensation Advisory Board. When, on 24 April this year, the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, proposed an amendment to remove the presumption about the reliability of computer evidence, the noble Baroness who is now the Minister added her name to it—oh the perils of moving from opposition to government.
My noble friend Lord Camrose—the Minister at the time—in a sympathetic speech, resisted that amendment on the basis, first, that there were shocking failures of professional duty in the Post Office case. This was quite true, but they were facilitated by the existence of the presumption. His second reason was that taking us back to the law of 1999, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, eloquently set out just now, would risk undermining prosecutions because we would need to get certificates of accuracy in cases such as breathalysers and those involving emails. There may have been something in that, so the noble Baroness has proposed an amendment that is designed to get round that second point.
I suspect that the Minister will resist this amendment too, but for reasons that I hope she will set out clearly, because we may then decide to move a different amendment on Report. We are making all the running on this—or at least the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, is, with my full support and, I know, that of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. I take a moment out of this Committee to pay tribute to their work ethic in this Committee, which has been quite phenomenal.
The Government do not seem to have the issue quite as close to the top of their priorities as we suggest. Without repeating all that I said on 24 April, I will summarise it as follows. Paul Marshall, the barrister, has pointed out that computer evidence is hearsay, with all the limitations that that implies. Modern computer programs are too large to be exhaustively tested. If computer programs are inherently unreliable, it is wrong to have a presumption that they are reliable. That issue will grow with the growth of artificial intelligence.
The presumption that computer evidence is reliable leads either to such things as we saw occur in the Post Office scandal, with the Post Office essentially taunting the sub-postmasters, saying, “If you can’t show us what is wrong with the computer evidence, we don’t have to show you that evidence”—a shocking case of Catch-22; or to lawyers and courts voluntarily abandoning the presumption and denigrating all computer evidence, whether or not it deserves to be denigrated. That might lead, for example, to some defendants being acquitted when the evidence would require that they be convicted. We are trying to help the Government find a way through a problem that they recognise and assert exists. Will they please give us some help in return? This is both serious and urgent. Just saying that it is very difficult does not begin the process of putting it right.
My Lords, I will speak briefly in support of this amendment. Anyone who has written computer code, and I plead guilty, knows that large software systems are never bug-free. These bugs can arise because of software design errors, human errors in coding or unexpected software interactions for some input data. Every computer scientist or software engineer will readily acknowledge that computer systems have a latent propensity to function incorrectly.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, has already said, we all regularly experience the phenomenon of bug fixing when we download updates to software products in everyday use—for example, Office 365. These updates include not only new features but patches to fix bugs which have become apparent only in the current version of the software. The legal presumption of the proper functioning of “mechanical instruments” that courts in England and Wales have been applying to computers since 1999 has been shown by the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry to be deeply flawed. The more complex the program, the more likely the occurrences of incorrect functioning, even with modular design. The program at the heart of Fujitsu’s Horizon IT system had tens of millions of lines of code.
The unwillingness of the courts to accept that the Horizon IT system developed for the Post Office was unreliable and lacking in robustness—until the key judgment, which has already been mentioned, by Mr Justice Fraser in 2019—is one of the main reasons why more than 900 sub-postmasters were wrongly prosecuted. The error logs of any computer system make it possible to identify unexpected states in the computer software and hence erroneous system behaviour. Error logs for the Horizon IT system were disclosed only in response to a direction from the court in early 2019. At that point, the records from Fujitsu’s browser-based incident management system revealed 218,000 different error records for the Horizon system.
For 18 years prior to 2019, the Post Office did not disclose any error log data, documents which are routinely maintained and kept for any computer system of any size and complexity. Existing disclosure arrangements in legal proceedings do not work effectively for computer software, and this amendment concerning the electronic evidence produced by or derived from a computer system seeks to address this issue. The Post Office Horizon IT inquiry finished hearing evidence yesterday, having catalogued a human tragedy of unparalleled scale, one of the most widespread miscarriages of justice in the UK. Whether it is by means of this amendment or otherwise, wrongful prosecutions on the basis that computers always operate properly cannot continue any longer.
My Lords, if I may just interject, I have seen this happen not just in the Horizon scandal. Several years ago, the banks were saying that you could not possibly find out someone’s PIN and were therefore refusing to refund people who had had stuff stolen from them. It was not until the late Professor Ross Anderson, of the computer science department at Cambridge University, proved that they had been deliberately misidentifying to the courts which counter they should have been looking at, as to what was being read, and explained exactly how you could get the thing to default back to a different set of counters, that the banks eventually had to give way. But they went on lying to the courts for a long time. I am afraid that this is something that keeps happening again and again, and an amendment like this is essential for future justice for innocent people.
My Lords, it is a pity that this debate is taking place so late. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, for his kind remarks, but my work ethic feels under considerable pressure at this time of night.
All I will say is that this is a much better amendment than the one that the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, put forward for the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill, and I very strongly support it. Not only is this horrifying in the context of the past Horizon cases, but I read a report about the Capture software, which is likely to have created shortfalls that led to sub-postmasters being prosecuted as well. This is an ongoing issue. The Criminal Cases Review Commission is reviewing five Post Office convictions in which the Capture IT system could be a factor, so we cannot say that this is about just Horizon, as there are the many other cases that the noble Baroness cited.
We need to change this common law presumption even more in the face of a world in which AI use, with all its flaws and hallucinations, is becoming ever present, and we need to do it urgently.
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for tabling her amendment. We understand its great intentions, which we believe are to prevent another scandal similar to that of Horizon and to protect innocent people from having to endure what thousands of postmasters have undergone and suffered.
However, while this amendment would make it easier to challenge evidence derived from, or produced by, a computer or computer system, we are concerned that, should it become law, this amendment could be misused by defendants to challenge good evidence. Our fear is that, in determining the reliability of such evidence, we may create a battle of the expert witnesses. This will not only substantially slow down trials but result in higher costs. Litigation is already expensive, and we would aim not to introduce additional costs to an already costly process unless absolutely necessary.
From our perspective, the underlying problem in the Horizon scandal was not that computer systems were critically wrong or that people were wrong, but that the two in combination drove the terrible outcomes that we have unfortunately seen. For many industries, regulations require firms to conduct formal systems validation, with serious repercussions and penalties should companies fail to do so. It seems to us that the disciplines of systems validation, if required for other industries, would be both a powerful protection and considerably less disruptive than potentially far-reaching changes to the law.
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, for Amendment 207 and for raising this important topic. The noble Baroness and other noble Lords are right that this issue goes far wider than Horizon. We could debate what went wrong with Horizon, but the issues before us today are much wider than that.
The Government are agreed that we must prevent future miscarriages of justice. We fully understand the intention behind the amendment and the significance of the issue. We are actively considering this matter and will announce next steps in the new year. I reassure noble Lords that we are on the case with this issue.
In the meantime, as this amendment brings into scope evidence presented in every type of court proceeding and would have a detrimental effect on the courts and prosecution—potentially leading to unnecessary delays and, more importantly, further distress to victims—I must ask the noble Baroness whether she is content to withdraw it at this stage. I ask that on the basis that this is an ongoing discussion that we are happy to have with her.
I thank the Minister, in particular for understanding that this goes way beyond Horizon. I would be very interested to be involved in those conversations, not because I have the great truth but because I have access to people with the great truth on this issue. In the conversations I have had, there has been so much pushing back. A bit like with our previous group, it would have been better to have been in the conversation before the consultation was announced than after. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
My Lords, the good news is that this is the last time I shall speak this evening. Amendment 211 seeks to ensure that the value of our publicly held large datasets is realised for the benefit of UK citizens.
Proposed new subsection (1) gives the Secretary of State the power to designate datasets held by public bodies, arm’s-length institutions or other sets held in the public interest as sovereign data assets.
Proposed new subsection (2) lists a number of requirements that the Secretary of State must have regard to when making a designation. Factors include the security and privacy of UK citizens, the ongoing value of the data assets, the rights of IP holders, the values, laws and international obligations of the UK, the requirement to give preferential access to UK-headquartered companies, organisations and the public sector, the requirement for data to be stored in the UK and the design of application programming interfaces facilitating access to the assets by authorised licence holders. It also sets out stakeholders whom the Secretary of State must consult when considering what datasets to designate as sovereign data assets. We heard in a previous debate that education data might be a good candidate.
Proposed new subsection (3) requires the setting up of a transparent licensing system. Proposed new subsection (4) requires those managing sovereign data assets to report annually on their value and anticipated return to UK subjects. This would include, for example, licence payments, profit share agreements and “in kind” returns, such as access to products or services built using sovereign data assets. Proposed new subsection (5) gives an oversight role to the National Audit Office, proposed new subsection (6) provides a definition, and proposed new subsections (7) and (8) specify that regulations made under the clause are subject to parliamentary approval.
When I raised this issue at Second Reading, the Minister answered positively, in that she felt that what I was suggesting was embodied in the plans for a national data library:
“The national data library will unlock the value of public data assets. It will provide simple, secure and ethical access to our key public data assets for researchers, policymakers and businesses, including those at the frontier of AI development, and make it easier to find, discover and make connections across those … databases. It will sit at the heart of an ambitious programme of reform that delivers the incentives, investment and leadership needed to secure the full benefits for people and the economy”.—[Official Report, 19/11/24; col. 196.]
That is a very valid and positive picture. My comments build on it, because since Second Reading, I have sought details about the national data library. It seems that plans are nascent and the level of funding, as I understand it, seems to match neither the ambition set out by the Minister nor what many experts think is necessary. One of my concerns—it will not surprise the Committee to hear, as it has come up a couple of times on previous groups—is that it appears to be a mechanism for facilitating access, rather than understanding, realising and protecting the value of these public data assets.
In the meantime, announcements of access to public data keep coming. We have worries about Palantir and the drip-feed of deals with OpenAI and Google, the latest of which was in the Health Services Journal, which said:
“The national Federated Data Platform will be used to train AI models for future use by the NHS, according to NHS England’s chief data and analytics officer”.
That sounds great, but the article went on to question the basis and the wrap-around. This is the question.
We in this House already understand the implications of an “adopt now, ask questions later”, approach. For example, as reported recently in Computer Weekly, Microsoft has now admitted to Scottish policing bodies that it cannot guarantee the sovereignty of UK policing data hosted on its hyperscale public cloud infrastructure. That is a huge problem for Police Scotland and one that is very likely to be mirrored across all sorts of government departments, in a technology that is central to so many departments. The proposed amendments offer a route to ask questions as you adopt technology, not after you have lost control.
My Lords, before we proceed, I draw to the attention of the Committee that we have a hard stop at 8.45 pm and we have committed to try to finish the Bill this evening. Could noble Lords please speak quickly and, if possible, concisely?
My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Kidron’s Amendment 211, to which I have put my name. I speak not as a technophobe but as a card-carrying technophile. I declare an interest as, for the past 15 years, I have been involved in the development of algorithms to analyse NHS data, mostly from acute NHS trusts. This is possible under current regulations, because all the research projects have received medical research ethics approval, and I hold an honorary contract with the local NHS trust.
This amendment is, in effect, designed to scale up existing provisions and make sure that they are applied to public sector data sources such as NHS data. By classifying such data as sovereign data assets, it would be possible to make it available not only to individual researchers but to industry—UK-based SMEs and pharmaceutical and big tech companies—under controlled conditions. One of these conditions, as indicated by proposed new subsection (6), is to require a business model where income is generated for the relevant UK government department from access fees paid by authorised licence holders. Each government department should ensure that the public sector data it transfers to the national data library is classified as a sovereign data asset, which can then be accessed securely through APIs acting
“as bridges between each sovereign data asset and the client software of the authorized licence holders”.
In the time available, I will consider the Department of Health and Social Care. The report of the Sudlow review, Uniting the UK’s Health Data: A Huge Opportunity for Society, published last month, sets out what could be achieved though linking multiple NHS data sources. The Academy of Medical Sciences has fully endorsed the report:
“The Sudlow recommendations can make the UK’s health data a truly national asset, improving both patient care and driving economic development”.
There is little difference, if any, between health data being “a truly national asset” and “a sovereign asset”.
Generative AI has the potential to extract clinical value from linked datasets in the various secure data environments within the NHS and to deliver a step change in patient care. It also has the potential to deliver economic value, as the application of AI models to these rich, multimodal datasets will lead to innovative software products being developed for early diagnosis and personalised treatment.
However, it seems that the rush to generate economic value is preceding the establishment of a transparent licensing system, as in proposed new subsection (3), and the setting up of a coherent business model, as in proposed new subsection (6). As my noble friend Lady Kidron pointed out, the provisions in this amendment are urgently needed, especially as the chief data and analytics officer at NHS England is reported as having said, at a recent event organised by the Health Service Journal and IBM, that the national federated data platform will soon be used to train different types of AI model. The two models mentioned in the speech were OpenAI’s proprietary ChatGPT model and Google’s medical AI, which is based on its proprietary large language model, Gemini. So, the patient data in the national federated data platform being built by Palantir, which is a US company, is, in effect, being made available to fine-tune large language models pretrained by OpenAI and Google—two big US tech companies.
As a recent editorial in the British Medical Journal argued:
“This risks leaving the NHS vulnerable to exploitation by private technology companies whose offers to ‘assist’ with infrastructure development could result in loss of control over valuable public assets”.
It is vital for the health of the UK public sector that there is no loss of control resulting from premature agreements with big tech companies. These US companies seek privileged access to highly valuable assets which consist of personal data collected from UK citizens. The Government must, as a high priority, determine the rules for access to these sovereign data assets along the lines outlined in this amendment. I urge the Minister to take on board both the aims and the practicalities of this amendment before any damaging loss of control.
My Lords, I support Amendment 211 moved by my noble friend Lady Kidron, which builds on earlier contributions in this place made by the noble Lords, Lord Mitchell, Lord Stevenson, Lord Clement-Jones, and myself, as long ago as 2018, about the need to maximise the social, economic and environmental value that may be derived from personal data of national significance and, in particular, data controlled by our NHS.
The proposed definition of “sovereign data assets” is, in some sense, broad. However, the intent to recognise, protect and maximise their value in the public interest is readily inferred. The call for a transparent licensing regime to provide access to such assets and the mention of preferential access for individuals and organisations headquartered in the UK also make good sense, as the overarching aim is to build and maintain public trust in third-party data usage.
Crucially, I fully support provisions that would require the Secretary of State to report on the value and anticipated financial return from sovereign data assets. Identifying a public body that considered itself able or willing to guarantee value for money proved challenging when this topic was last explored. For too long, past Governments have dithered and delayed over the introduction of provisions that explicitly recognise the need to account for and safeguard the investment made by taxpayers in data held by public and arm’s-length institutions and associated data infrastructure—something that we do as a matter of course where the tangible assets that the National Audit Office monitors and reports on are concerned.
In recent weeks, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has emphasised the importance of recovering public funds “lost” during the Covid-19 pandemic. Yet this focus raises important questions about other potential revenue streams that were overlooked, particularly regarding NHS data assets. In 2019, Ernst & Young estimated that a curated NHS dataset could generate up to £5 billion annually for the UK while also delivering £4.6 billion in yearly patient benefits through improved data infrastructure. This begs the question: who is tracking whether these substantial economic and healthcare opportunities are being realised? Who is ensuring that these projected benefits—both financial and clinical—are actually flowing back into our healthcare system?
As we enter the age of AI, public discourse often fixates on potential risks while overlooking a crucial opportunity—namely, the rapidly increasing value of publicly controlled data and its potential to drive innovation and insights. This raises two crucial questions. First, how might we capitalise on the upside of this technological revolution to maximise the benefits on behalf of the public? Secondly, and more specifically, how will Parliament effectively scrutinise any eventual trade deal entered into with, for example, the United States of America, which might focus on a more limited digital chapter, in the absence of either an accepted valuation methodology or a transparent licensing system for use in providing access to valuable UK data assets?
Will the public, faced with a significant tax burden to improve public services and repeated reminders of the potential for data and technology to transform our NHS, trust the Government if they enable valuable digital assets to be stripped today only to be turned tomorrow into cutting-edge treatments that we can ill afford to purchase and that benefit companies paying taxes overseas? To my mind, there remains a very real risk that the UK, as my noble friend Lady Kidron, rightly stated, will inadvertently give away potentially valuable digital assets without there being appropriate safeguards in place. I therefore welcome the intent of Amendment 211 to put that right in the public interest.
My Lords, having a system such as this would really focus the public sector on how we can generate more datasets. As I said earlier, education is an obvious one, but so is mobile phone data. All these companies have their licences. If a condition of the licence was that the data on how people move around the UK became a public asset, that would be hugely beneficial to policy formation. If we really understood how, why and when people move, we would make much better decisions. We could save ourselves huge amounts of money. We really ought to have this as a deep focus of government policy.
My Lords, I have far too little time to do justice to this subject. We on these Benches welcome this amendment. It is entirely consistent with the sovereign health fund proposed by Future Care Capital and, indeed, with the proposals from the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change on a similar concept called the national data trust. Indeed, this concept formed part of our Liberal Democrat manifesto at the last general election, so of course I support the amendment.
It would be very useful to hear more about the national data library, including on its purpose and operation, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, said. I entirely agree with her that there is a great need for a sovereign cloud service or services. Indeed, the inability to guarantee that data on the cloud is held in this country is a real issue that has not yet been properly addressed.
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for moving this amendment. As she rightly identified, the UK has a number of publicly held data assets, many of which contain extremely valuable information. This data—I flag, by way of an example, NHS data specifically—could be extremely valuable to certain organisations, such as pharmaceutical companies.
We are drawn to the idea of licensing such data—indeed, we believe that we could charge an extremely good price—but we have a number of concerns. Most notably, what additional safeguards would be required, given its sensitivity? What would be the limits and extent of the licensing agreement? Would this status close off other routes to monetising the data? Would other public sector bodies be able to use the data for free? Can this not already be done without the amendment?
Although His Majesty’s Official Opposition of course recognise the wish to ensure that the UK taxpayer gets a fair return on our information assets held by public bodies and arm’s-length organisations, and we certainly agree that we need to look at licensing, we are not yet sure that this amendment is either necessary or sufficient. We once again thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for moving it. We look forward to hearing both her and the Minister’s thoughts on the matter.
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for her amendment. I agree with her that the public sector has a wealth of data assets that could be used to help our society achieve our missions and contribute to economic growth.
As well as my previous comments on the national data library, the Government’s recent Green Paper, Invest 2035: The UK’s Modern Industrial Strategy, makes it clear that we consider data access part of the modern business environment, so improving data access is integral to the UK’s approach to growth. However, we also recognise the value of our data assets as part of this approach. At the same time, it is critical that we use our data assets in a trustworthy and ethical way, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the noble Lord, Lord Tarassenko, said, so we must tackle these issues carefully.
This is an active area of policy development for the Government, and we need to get it right. I must therefore ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment. However, she started and provoked a debate that will, I hope, carry on; we would be happy to engage in that debate going forward.
I thank all speakers, in particular my noble friend Lord Tarassenko for his perspective. I am very happy to discuss this matter and let the Official Opposition know that this is a route to something more substantive to which they can agree. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
My Lords, before we move on to the next group, I again remind noble Lords that we have in fact only two groups to get through because Amendment 212 will not be moved. We have about 25 minutes to get through those two groups.
Amendment 211B
My Lords, it is a pleasure to introduce this group of amendments. I have a 35-minute speech prepared. In moving Amendment 211B, I shall speak also to Amendments 211C to 211E. The reason for this group of amendments is to try to get an increased focus on the range of issues they touch on.
I turn to Amendment 211B first. It seems at least curious to have a data Bill without talking about data centres in terms of their power usage, their environmental impact and the Government’s view of the current PUE standard. Is it of a standard that they think gives the right measure of confidence to consumers and citizens across the country, in terms of how data centres are being operated and their impacts?
Similarly, on Amendment 211C, not enough consideration is given to supply chains. I am not suggesting that they are the most exciting subject but you have to go only one or two steps back in any supply chain to get into deep depths of opacity. With this amendment, I am seeking to gain more clarity on data supply chains and the role of data across all supply chains. Through the combination of data and AI, we could potentially enable a transformation of our supply chain in real time. That would give us so much more flexibility to try for economic benefits and environmental benefits. I look forward to the Minister’s response.
I now move on to Amendment 211D. It is always a pleasure to bring AI into a Bill that really does not want to have AI in it. I am interested in the whole question of data input and output, not least with large language models. I am also interested in the Government’s view on how this interacts with the 1988 copyright Act. There may be some mileage in looking into some standards and approaches in this area, which would potentially go some way towards conditions of market access. We have some excellent examples to look at in other sectors of our economy and society, as set out in the amendment; I would welcome the Minister’s views on that.
I am happy that this group ends with Amendment 211E on the subject of public trust. In many ways, it is the golden thread that should run through everything when we talk about data; I wanted it to be the golden thread that ran through my AI regulation Bill. I always say that Clause 6 is the most important clause in that Bill because it goes to the question of public engagement and trust. Without that level of public engagement and trust, it does not matter how good the technologies are, how good the frameworks are or how good the chat around the data is. It might be golden but, if the public do not believe in it, they are not going to come and be part of it. The most likely consequence of this is that they will not be able to avail themselves of the benefits but they will almost certainly be saddled with the burdens. What these technologies enable is nothing short of a transformation of that discourse between citizen and state, with the potential to reimagine completely the social contract for the benefit of all.
Public engagement and public trust are the golden thread and the fuel for how we gain those economic, social and psychological benefits from the data. I will be very interested in the Minister’s response on what more could be done by the Government, because previous consultations, not least around some of these technologies, have been somewhat short of what we could achieve. With that #brevity and #our data, I beg to move.
My Lords, I shall be #even shorter. Data centres and their energy consumption are important issues. I agree that at a suitable moment—probably not now—it would be very interesting to hear the Government’s views on that. Reports from UK parliamentary committees and the Government have consistently emphasised the critical importance of maintaining public trust in data use and AI, but sometimes, the actions of the Government seem to go contrary to that. I support the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, in his call for essentially realising the benefits of AI while making sure that we maintain public trust.
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond for tabling this amendment. As we all appreciate, taking stock of the effects of legislation is critical, as it allows us to see what has worked and what has not. Amendment 221B would require the Secretary of State to launch a consultation into the implications of the provisions of the Bill on the power usage and energy efficiency of data centres. His Majesty’s Official Opposition have no objection to the amendment’s aims but we wonder to what extent it is actually possible. By what means or benchmark can we identify whether a spike in energy usage is specifically due to a provision from this legislation, rather than as a result of some other factor? I should be most grateful if my noble friend could provide further detail on this matter in his closing speech.
Regarding Amendment 211C, we understand that much could be learned from a review of all data regulations and standards pertaining to the supply chains for financial, trade, and legal documents and products, although we wonder if this needs to happen the moment this Bill passes. Could this review not happen at any stage? By all means, let us do it sooner rather than later, but is it necessary to set a date in statute?
Moving on to Amendment 221D, we should certainly look to regulate the AI large language model sector to ensure that there are standards for the input and output of data for LLMs. However, this must be done in a way that does not stifle growth in this emerging industry.
Finally, we have some concerns about Amendment 211E. A national consultation on the use of individuals’ data is perhaps just too broad.
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, for tabling Amendment 221B and his other amendments in this group, which are on a range of varied and important issues. Given the hour, I hope he will be content if I promise to write to him on each of these issues and in the meantime, I ask him to withdraw the amendment.
I thank all noble Lords who participated: I will not go through them by name. I thank the Minister for her response and would very much welcome a letter. I am happy to meet her on all these subjects but, for now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
My Lords, environmental data, specifically such things as biodiversity data, is a key component to getting policy in this area right. To do so, we need to make sure that all the good data we are generating around the UK gets into our storage system, and that the best possible and most complete data is used whenever we make decisions.
We currently run that through a system of local environmental records centres that are independent and not for profit. Since that is the system we have, it ought to be run right. At the moment, we are failing to capture a lot of quality data because the data is not coming in from the planning system, or from other similar functions, in the way that it should. We are not consistently using that data in planning as we should. Natural England, which ought to be intimately linked into this system, has stepped away from it for budgetary reasons. The environment is important to us. If the Government are serious about that, we have to get our data collection and use system right. I beg to move.
My Lords, listening to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, is often an education, and today is no exception. I had no idea what local environmental records centres were, so I shall be very interested to hear what the Minister has to say in response.
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Lucas for tabling Amendment 211F and all noble Lords for their brief contributions to this group.
Amendment 211F ensures that all the biodiversity data collected by or in connection with government is collected in local environment records centres to ensure that records are as good as possible. That data is then used by or in connection with government, so it is put to the best possible use.
The importance of sufficient and high-quality record collection cannot and must not be understated. With this in mind, His Majesty’s Official Opposition support the sentiment of the amendment in my noble friend’s name. These Benches will always champion matters related to biodiversity and nature recovery. In fact, many of my noble friends have raised concerns about biodiversity in Committee debates in your Lordships’ House on the Crown Estate Bill, the Water (Special Measures) Bill and the Great British Energy Bill. Indeed, they have tabled amendments that ensure that matters related to biodiversity appear at the forefront of draft legislation.
With that in mind, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Lucas for introducing provisions, via Amendment 211F, which would require any planning application involving biodiversity net gain to include a data search report from the relevant local environmental records centre. I trust that the Minister has listened to the concerns raised collaboratively in the debate on this brief group. We must recognise the importance of good data collection and ensure that such data is used in the best possible way.
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for his Amendment 211F. I absolutely agree that local environmental records centres provide an important service. I reassure noble Lords that the Government’s digital planning programme is developing data standards and tools to increase the availability, accessibility and usability of planning data. This will transform people’s experience of planning and housing, including through local environmental records centres. On that basis, I must ask the noble Lord whether he is prepared to withdraw his amendment.
My Lords, I am grateful for that extensive answer from the Minister. If I have anything that I hope that she might add, I will write to her afterwards.
My heart is always in the cause of making sure that the Government get their business done on time every time, and that we finish Committee stages when they ask, as doubtless they will discover with some of the other Bills they have in this Session. For now, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
That concludes the Committee’s proceedings on the Bill. I thank all noble Lords who have participated for being so co-operative.
(1 week, 1 day ago)
Lords ChamberTo ask His Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to re-open Hammersmith Bridge to motor traffic.
My Lords, my department is working with the London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham and Transport for London on the closure of Hammersmith Bridge to traffic. The Government have provided the borough with almost £13 million of funding to date, and my honourable friend the Minister for Local Transport will reconvene the Hammersmith Bridge taskforce in the new year.
I thank the Minister. It is good news that the taskforce is meeting on 30 January, but of course it does raise the question of why it has not met for more than three years. Hammersmith Bridge is a major entry point into London, and hundreds of thousands of commuters have been very badly inconvenienced for more than five years. During that time, Notre Dame was gutted by fire and rebuilt.
The other bit of good news is that this is a project to be considered in the spring spending review. Will the Minister use all his extensive experience and efforts to ensure that this project is adopted? At the moment, it is a stain on our national reputation as a country with the capacity and the will to get things done.
The noble and right reverend Lord would not expect me to account for the time elapsed since the taskforce last met and July. It is now going to meet, and the good news is that the stabilisation work, which has been beset by delays and cost increases due to skill scarcity and inflation, should be finished by April 2025. The bridge is an iconic structure—perhaps not as iconic as Notre Dame, but it is certainly useful locally. It was built in 1887 from wrought iron; it has been bombed twice by the IRA, has not been properly maintained for decades, and nearly fell down five years ago.
Some noble Lords know that I can drive a public service vehicle. I must be the only person here who has driven one over Hammersmith Bridge in traffic, and I can tell noble Lords that the forward motion of the bus was accompanied by the lateral motion of the bridge —and the vertical motion of the bridge. It is the only time driving a bus I have nearly felt seasick.
My Lords, as a resident of Hammersmith and Fulham I would like to say that, although there has been some inconvenience, there has also been much better air quality. I am interested in what the Minister has to say about the possibility of an electric shuttle service running across the bridge, to enable those who are unable to walk across it to cross with relative ease. That would be much better for the air quality for those of us in Barnes and Hammersmith and Fulham, and could be done reasonably quickly.
It is a matter for the London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham, and indeed for the neighbouring borough on the south side, of which I declare that I am a resident, to decide what they want to do with the bridge. The stabilisation work has stopped it from literally collapsing, but the capacity of the bridge to take traffic as well as pedestrians and cyclists will cost a lot more money, and the boroughs will have to work with Transport for London to decide how the bridge is going to be used. The other really important feature of the bridge is that at least once a year it is absolutely full of pedestrians. Therefore, a job that does not allow it to bear the weight of pedestrians for the boat race and other things will not be very satisfactory. However, it is for the boroughs to decide how to deal with that.
My Lords, this is a sorry saga. The impact of the closure is significant for south-west London, particularly the London Borough of Richmond upon Thames. When will a full economic and environmental evaluation be carried out on the effect of the bridge’s closure for this whole area?
As I say, it is primarily for the London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham, which has the good fortune—or bad luck—to own this structure, and for the London Borough of Richmond upon Thames on the south side to decide between them what they want to do with this bridge in the future, bearing in mind the engineering evaluation about what the structure is capable of doing. It was designed and built for horse-drawn traffic; it has never been particularly strong. Therefore, the boroughs need to work with Transport for London to work out to what use it might be put. I agree that there needs to be an economic evaluation of the effects of whatever happens permanently, but first they need to work out what the bridge is capable of doing after it has been stabilised.
My Lords, I was the chair of the Hammersmith Bridge taskforce, alongside the current Transport Secretary, who was also a member. I said that the taskforce would reconvene whenever a project came forward from Hammersmith and Fulham. We have heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Blower, who says that there is some doubt as to whether it really should be reopened from the Hammersmith and Fulham side. I have sensed all along that this is why Hammersmith and Fulham council has been dragging its feet. The Liberal Democrats also cannot claim glory in this. because they are remarkably silent from the south of the river. Can the Minister tell the House whether full, complete and costed proposals have been forthcoming from Hammersmith and Fulham council?
We know what the range of costs for a future renovation of the bridge should be. They are very significant—at least a quarter of a billion pounds. I cannot currently say how detailed that is, but I know that it is the order of magnitude of what would need to be done to move further than just stabilisation, which will be completed, as I say. It must have been quite a burden to both chair and be in those meetings, and I am interested to hear about that. I hope that my honourable friend the Minister for Local Transport, when he reconvenes the taskforce, quickly brings the meeting to a clear understanding of what the bridge is to be used for in the future, and therefore what needs to be done to it in the long term.
My Lords, the Greater London Authority Act explicitly transferred the responsibility previously held by the Government Office for London to fund capital transport projects by the boroughs to the Mayor of London. It is undoubtedly the Mayor of London’s responsibility to provide funding for this. Does the Minister not agree that what we are seeing here is a failure by two Labour-run authorities that, at the expense of members of the public, are engaged in a competition to show who can be more anti-motorist?
I will say two things to the noble Lord. First, the bridge has got into its current state over decades, which have seen various changes of control by the owners, the London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham. Secondly, he will know better than most that the level of settlement afforded to the Mayor of London for transport purposes by the previous Government was frankly derisory, and therefore the current Mayor of London has not been able to allocate money to all the things he would like to. We need to establish what the use of the bridge will be in future, which is a matter for the two boroughs. In other circumstances the noble Lord would defend fiercely the right of local authorities in London to decide what to do with their local roads. That has to be established. From that, it can be worked out what to do with the bridge, how much it will cost, how long it will take and, incidentally, who should pay for it.
My Lords, I declare my interest as a Barnes resident. Hammersmith Bridge is a key Thames crossing point for motor traffic in London. Its closure for over five years has greatly increased traffic congestion, delays and pollution around neighbouring bridges in Kew, Chiswick and Putney. Even the idea of a community pedicab service across the bridge has apparently been shelved—although much good it would do for motorists. What reassurance can the Minister give that he will ensure there is at least a plan in place for reopening the bridge to motor traffic before the actual reopening of the far-larger Baltimore harbour bridge, scheduled for 2028? How will he clarify who is responsible for such a plan and how it will be funded?
I am very clear that the bridge is owned by the London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham. It is that borough’s job as the highway authority for the local road network, together with Richmond upon Thames on the other side, to decide how this bridge should be used. The mayor has responsibility for transport in London; he is part of this discussion, and the department is too, but those boroughs have to decide. They have to look at both how long it has taken and how much it has cost to stabilise the bridge, and decide what that structure is capable of doing in the future. It has never been able to take heavy vehicles of any description and, as I said, latterly it was pretty unsuitable for vehicles of seven and three-quarter tonnes. The boroughs need to decide on that, because the cost of doing it and the time it will take to finish depends on it. It is their collective job to do it, and that is why the taskforce will be reconvened.
(1 week, 1 day ago)
Lords ChamberTo ask His Majesty’s Government what is their policy on creating additional housing units through permitted development rights.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, for his Question and for all the work he has done on healthy homes. Under nationally set permitted development rights, a wide range of commercial and other buildings are able to change use without the need for a planning application. The Government acknowledge the concerns that exist about the quality of residential units created through permitted development rights, particularly office-to-residential conversions. We will continue to keep permitted development rights under review, and we are grateful to the National Housing Federation and the TCPA for highlighting some of the issues arising from poor-quality PD schemes.
I thank the noble Baroness for that response and for the fact that this is being kept under review. I was also pleased to hear from a government spokesman last week that there is to be
“no trade-off between supply and quality”
in respect of housing. However, as the noble Baroness said, PDR has a poor record. Some very good conversions are made but a large number suffer from safety and other problems. I want to ask two questions. How will the noble Baroness ensure that that poor track record is not just continued into the future? Also, in reviewing it, will she meet some of the people who have already done so and come to conclusions about it to ensure that there is indeed no trade-off between housing supply and quality?
My Lords, the Government’s aim in the delivery of the 1.5 million homes is to deliver good quality, well-designed, sustainable homes and places that everyone can be proud of. I have already met both the TCPA and the National Housing Federation, which have been campaigning on this. I am very aware of some of the poor practice that has occurred, and we will continue to advocate for the principles of good design, as set out in the National Design Guide and the National Model Design Code. As I say, we keep permitted development under review.
My Lords, it must make sense to use redundant buildings to provide good-quality accommodation for those in need, but is there not a loophole in the current fire safety regulations? These apply when a commercial building is converted into flats but not when industrial buildings or storage units are. Should we not use the Renters’ Rights Bill to close this loophole?
My Lords, the Planning Gateway One fire safety requirements apply to applications for planning permission for relevant buildings. To apply some of the principles to permitted development, there was a prior approval on fire safety impacts in 2021 that applies to class MA: commercial, business and services to residential. It is not, however, as detailed as the requirements for a planning application. For example, it does not require the completion of a fire safety form. We need to continue to look at these issues and to make sure that permitted development is completely safe from fire.
My Lords, I congratulate the Government and my noble friend the Minister on the ambitious housing targets to meet housing need. What assessment has been made of mixed funding models using private, public, and banking and hedge fund sources to construct those houses in order to provide for the great housing need throughout the country?
My noble friend makes an excellent point about funding for affordable housing. Even in a very tight budget round, the Government have allocated an additional £500 million towards affordable housing, which brings the total up to around £3 billion altogether. But we need to consider all sources of funding. I spoke to a housing investment forum in the City of London just a few weeks ago, and there is great interest in this area; and of course, we still need to look at pension funds further for local investment to drive the housing market.
My Lords, surely it is the Government’s mission to create decent homes and not the slums of the future, and I am at a loss to know why the Government are procrastinating on this. Surely it is time to insist on full planning permission for the larger schemes, or at least to revert to the regulations that were in place before 2012.
I take the noble Baroness’s point; we need to keep this continually under review. Some of the permitted development homes have been of fair quality and have provided homes for people. But we need to continue to press that all new homes delivered through permitted development rights must provide adequate light, meet nationally described space standards and be decent, fit and safe for the people who live in them. We will continue to do that. Where there are bigger schemes, equally, they must meet those requirements.
My Lords, I declare my interest as listed in the register. Running through the creation of additional housing are upcoming policy decisions on regulating embodied carbon. Can the Minister update the House on the research under way in her department, when it will report and when the associated consultation will be published?
I am grateful to the noble Lord, and for his time in meeting with me to discuss embodied carbon. We have been talking to the construction industry and to developers across the board, and there are some complex issues involved. I know the noble Lord is doing work with stakeholders as well, and I look forward to working with him further in the new year. I believe we have a meeting scheduled for early in 2025 to discuss this further.
My Lords, I declare my interest as a councillor in central Bedfordshire. To deliver the housing this country needs, we need to ensure that planning permissions and allocations are being built out in a timely manner. Yesterday, I asked the Minister whether the Government will provide local councils with adequate powers to ensure that allocated and permissioned sites actually get built, and she responded that there is a whole section on sanctions in the report. Can the Minister tell me which section that is in the NPPF, as I could find in it no meaningful additional tools being provided to councils to ensure build-out?
I thank the noble Lord and apologise for misleading him yesterday: it is not in the NPPF but in the accompanying notes. There are powers that local government can use, including completion orders and so on, to encourage developers to build out when necessary. I will provide him with a detailed written response about all the powers that are available to local government to do that.
My Lords, can the Minister tell us what steps her department is taking to ensure that enough of the homes being built under the PDR are affordable for local people in rural areas?
I thank the right reverend Prelate for that question. PDR tends to apply where there are brownfield sites to be developed because they are conversions, usually, from existing buildings. There has been a change to introduce that principle for agricultural buildings as well. I will try to get back to him with a specific answer on whether the department knows how much take-up there has been of that provision. We have made provision in the new national planning policy framework for ensuring that planning policies and decisions are responsive to local circumstances in rural areas and support housing developments that reflect local needs. That is a more general requirement. I will get back to him on whether the agricultural permitted development has had any traction.
My Lords, I refer the Minister to the issue of rural businesses—shops, in many villages, that are a vital part of the vibrancy of those communities and services—which are being converted through PDR without permission and against the will of local communities. Shops are not protected beyond one within a kilometre.
It is very important that we focus on the facilities in local areas, but this is a commercial market and where shops are not able to achieve the market they need, permitted development regulations will occur. In reviewing the PDRs, that is one of the issues we need to focus on—whether any further protections are necessary, particularly for assets such as rural assets.
Referring back to the original Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, can my noble friend confirm that the code will include noise insulation as well as other measures that are crucial to good health, on the grounds that noise nuisance can be deeply detrimental to the well-being of individuals and lead to much anti-social behaviour?
There are a wide range of issues that we need to think about in terms of permitted development, and noise nuisance is one of them. All new homes are required to meet current building regulations, including on fire safety, irrespective of the route to planning permission. However, some building regulations differ or do not apply where homes are delivered through material change of use rather than new build. That applies whether homes are delivered through permitted development or following an application for planning permission. All these issues—noise, fire safety and so on—need to be considered in the light of permitted development regulations.
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Lords ChamberTo ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the work of the Independent Office for Police Conduct.
An independent watchdog is vital in ensuring the effective oversight of police complaints and investigating the most serious and sensitive cases involving the police. The Independent Office for Police Conduct is accountable to the Home Office and Parliament for the delivery of its statutory and non-statutory duties. It was independently reviewed in 2023-24 as part of the public bodies review programme. The Government are currently considering the recommendations.
My Lords, why, after 18 months, is there no sign of the outcome of this organisation’s gross misconduct proceedings against Mr Steve Rodhouse? Inexplicably, he was made director-general of operations at the National Crime Agency after leading the disastrous Operation Midland, which inflicted immense distress on two distinguished Members of your Lordships’ House—Lord Bramall and Lord Brittan—and many others. Mr Rodhouse is the only officer to be called to account over this catastrophic police operation. As it goes about its leisurely work, does this organisation have any conception of the feelings of Lady Brittan and others who have suffered as a result of Mr Rodhouse’s misconduct? Incidentally, it has not stopped him recently receiving a £10,000 pay rise. Finally, does it come as any surprise that having found Mr Rodhouse guilty on a separate misconduct charge of jeopardising police operations against organised crime, the IOPC kept its decision secret until the Daily Mail revealed it?
As ever, I try to be helpful to the noble Lord on these matters, but he will know that there is an ongoing IOPC investigation into the police officer he has mentioned. I am not able from this Dispatch Box to give advice or commentary on that investigation until such time as it is complete.
My Lords, I hope that I speak for the whole House in paying tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, for his campaigning in this area. Year-on-year, we see Bill after Bill to give greater powers over the public to the police, but not so many Bills to deal with police discipline. What plans do His Majesty’s Government have to put that right soon?
My noble friend will know that in the King’s Speech there was a proposal to establish greater accountability for the police, improve standards and review the work of the College of Policing. That will be brought before this House in due course and within this Session of Parliament.
My Lords, can the Minister elaborate on what steps the Government are taking to ensure that the appointments system for senior roles within the Independent Office for Police Conduct is transparent, robust and free from any perception of bias, so as to maintain the much-needed public confidence in its impartiality?
The Independent Office for Police Conduct is accountable to Ministers, as it was when the Opposition were in Government. There has been a recommendation from a review of the Cabinet Office’s public bodies review programme. That review was published in March 2024, when the noble Lord’s Government were in office. It looked at the whole question of the IOPC’s governance, accountability, efficiency and efficacy. There were 93 recommendations in that report, 73 of which have been accepted by the IOPC. The remaining recommendations were in his Government’s in-tray. They are now being reviewed and will be implemented shortly by this Government. Included in them is the method by which the IOPC is accountable to Ministers and therefore to this House and the House of Commons.
We will hear from the Lib Dem Benches next.
My Lords, over the last year, the IOPC has made a range of recommendations to the police about things such as strip-searching children and suspicionless stop and search. All the recommendations have been accepted by the police. Who is responsible for making sure that the recommendations that were accepted will be implemented? Will the Government publish the information so that we can all be sure that when recommendations are accepted, they are carried out in practice? As the Minister will know, this is not always the case. A lot of recommendations are accepted and then totally ignored.
It is the responsibility of police chiefs, police and crime commissioners, and mayors in areas where the mayors are responsible, such as the Mayor of Greater Manchester, the Mayor of London and others, to implement recommendations made by the IOPC. I assure the noble Baroness that, ultimately, the buck stops here.
My Lords, can the Minister confirm that one of the principal complaints about the IOPC from the police service itself is the length of time that investigations take? Clearly, this is causing some concern.
I am grateful to the noble Lord for his question. It is absolutely vital—this goes back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lexden—that investigations are done speedily and on time, are publicly accountable, and that their recommendations are implemented. It is no secret to this House that the Government intend to produce a police White Paper in the new year that will cover a range of issues, including the standards mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey. The recommendations made about the IOPC, and how the Government will respond to them, will be included in that.
My Lords, a situation has arisen in Devon and Cornwall where not one but two chief constables have been suspended on full pay, pending investigation. I understand that the police and crime commissioner has made an application for a special grant in order to cover the costs of full pay for three chief constables. As we have just heard, the IOPC can take some time in its investigations. What approach does the Minister intend to take in this and similar situations in the future?
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her question. I must be honest, I do not have that information in front of me but I will report back to the police Minister. A police grant was published yesterday and is open for consultation. I am not aware of the particular request from the police and crime commissioner but I will follow up with my colleague and write to the noble Baroness with the detail of whether and how it is being progressed. Self-evidently, having three salaries for a chief constable is not a good use of public money.
My Lords, having worked at the Police Complaints Authority for a number of years, I was impressed evermore by the extraordinary behaviour of the police officers who showed incredible restraint in the face of endless rudeness and offensiveness on the part of various members of the public. I wonder if the Minister has had similar experience of the police.
As a Minister, my dealings with the police on a day-to-day basis are varied. I have found the police to be professional, forward-looking and aware of the need for accountability because they are exercising strong powers on behalf of the public at large. The purpose of the IOPC, its accountability to Ministers and the framework that we as Ministers set, is about making sure the police retain the confidence of the public they serve and maintain their security. Without that security and confidence, the police cannot operate in an effective way in policing our communities. That is part of the reason why the forthcoming White Paper will look at how we can improve standards, the management of standards and the level of accountability.
The whole House owes a great debt of gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, for his constant concern about these very big issues. But the thing that really matters to ordinary people to keep confidence in the police is, for example, the police answering complaints. That does not happen with the Metropolitan Police. If you send a complaint by email there seems to be no means of reply. The police ought surely always to be seen to be obeying the law that others obey. Every day, along the road from here, a long line of police cars are parked on double yellow lines. I do not mind it being designated as a police place, but on yellow lines, where ordinary motorists cannot stop, people just say that it is the police, again, not doing as police should do, which is to obey the law that everyone else has to obey.
One of the proposals that the Government are bringing forward, which I hope will help the noble Lord, is the investment in 13,000 community police officers. As part of that community and neighbourhood policing offer, there will be in each council ward a named police officer who is the local liaison point. I absolutely take the noble Lord’s point; the level of response when a complaint is made is important. As for the operational issue of parking in front of this place, I will take that away but, ultimately, it is about the security of this building. There is a range of issues there which I think the noble Lord needs to look at. But I understand his point, and I will reflect on that.
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Lords ChamberTo ask His Majesty’s Government whether they have paused phase 2 of their pension review, and if so, why.
My Lords, this Government are committed to enabling tomorrow’s pensioners to have security in retirement, which is why we announced the landmark pensions review days after coming into office in July. The first phase will boost investment and economic growth, with two consultations live since November, and we are committed to a second phase focused on retirement adequacy, of which we will provide further details in due course.
I very much welcome my noble friend the Minister’s reply, but of course she will be aware of how this works. Last weekend there was a series of stories in the national press, from the FT to the Sun, suggesting that the second phase had been put on hold, presumably to provide some assurance to those who are concerned about the high costs of employment. The problem is that without an urgent definition of an adequate pension on a clear and evidence-based basis, much of the debate that we can have on pensions is facile and empty of content. You cannot know which way to go unless you know where you are going. Does the Minister agree?
I think I can agree with the last statement firmly. I will try to avoid being facile and empty of content; I cannot make permanent promises, but I will do my best. I understand the point my noble friend is making, but I can perhaps offer him some reassurance. The pensions review is going to be conducted in two phases, and it matters that they are structured in the right way. The first phase, which was launched by the Chancellor in July, is aiming to boost investment, so it offers a win-win. It will boost investment for the country and provide better saver outcomes, alongside economic growth.
Phase 1 launched two significant consultations: one about DC schemes and the other about the Local Government Pension Scheme. It is right that we focus on delivering the first phase before moving on to phase 2. But the second phase, my noble friend will be glad to know, will focus on pensions adequacy and further measures to improve outcomes for pensioners. I take his point about the need to be clear about what adequacy means, and I will take that back. The scope of the second phase will be announced in due course, but I will take that comment back to my colleagues as that is being developed.
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that the pensions review will cover the ombudsman’s recommendations for WASPI women, on which subject I declare an interest?
I fully accept that the noble Baroness may not be alone in this place in that declaration of interest. The ombudsman’s review is something to which the Government have already made their response. It was published yesterday, and I repeated a Statement in the House that was made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State.
As noble Lords will be aware, the Government looked very carefully at the evidence that was provided to and by the ombudsman, and we concluded that while we accept the specific case of maladministration by allowing a 28-month delay in sending out personalised letters to women born in the 1950s, the Government could not accept that that created the impact the ombudsman had described and therefore could not accept the recommendation on injustice and remedy. I am also very aware of the widespread concern among many women who had hoped to retire at 60 and found that they could not, which is a mixture of the decision back in 1995 to equalise the state pension age and the decision of the coalition Government in 2011 to accelerate those changes. That was not a subject of the ombudsman’s review, and nor is it the subject of the pensions review.
My Lords, the Minister talks about the two stages of the pensions review, which is very important. Can she confirm that the modelling by the Government Actuary—and I stress that—shows that the measures in stage 1 of the pensions review will, at best, only slightly improve member outcomes? Those are his words, not mine. Can she give me some reassurance that stage 2 will be given the priority it deserves? Can we get a timescale for when we will get to stage 2? I know the Minister cares about pensioners, and this review is necessary.
I thank the noble Lord. We share that; we both care about pensioners. This Government are absolutely committed to making sure that outcomes for pensioners from private pension savings are as good as they can be. Both phases matter. It matters absolutely that we get the pensions market working properly the first time around. The noble Lord will be aware that measures have been announced for the pensions Bill, but there are live consultations on a range of measures that can enhance both growth for the UK and outcomes for savers.
It really matters. We want to end up, as our proposal suggests, with fewer, but better and bigger, pension schemes. All the international evidence suggests that consolidation and scale produce better results for savers. That, in the end, is what will drive private pension incomes. If we can get the market working well, we can try to get people saving as much into it as they need to.
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness on her promotion. I understand that stage 2 of the review, if it does go ahead, focusing on pensions adequacy, might recommend that pensions contributions increase from 8% to 12%, meaning that employees would continue to contribute 3%, but with employers increasing their contributions from 5% to 9%, which is a very heavy burden, especially on hard-pressed small businesses. In addition, for employees opting out of auto-enrolment, which is their right, the recommendation might be that employers would still pay their side of the contribution. Why did the Chancellor not think holistically about all the costs that businesses have to bear in employing staff when she made the decision in her Budget to raise the national insurance contributions?
My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for his kind words. I am very grateful; it is very gracious of him. He is asking me to comment on speculation about something that might be recommended in the phase 2 review, which has not started yet, so I hope he will bear with me. We think that getting this the right way around really matters. Phase 1 is about trying to get the market working as well as it should, both the DC side and the consultation on the Local Government Pension Scheme. If we can get the market functioning well and drive more scale and consolidation, looking at what they are doing in Canada and Australia, we can then have a better-functioning market and better returns. At that point in stage 2, we can look at matters of adequacy and at what money is going into it.
My Lords, we live in a country where 50% of the population own less than 5% of wealth and the poorest 10% own just 0.02%. What plans do the Government have to improve the share of wealth of a substantial part of the population to enable them to save for a private pension? Surely such things cannot be left to the market.
I think that might be slightly above my pay grade. The Government want to make sure that everybody can save an appropriate amount for retirement. For that to work, one of the starting points is that people have to earn enough in their working lives to be able to have an option of saving anything. The measures that the Government have taken, in our plans for jobs and in looking at what we are doing with the national living wage and to try to drive good work, are about trying to drive economic growth, get more people into good jobs and help them to stay there and to grow in their careers. The work has been done around the Get Britain Working White Paper. All the plans around that are trying to get people to develop in their working life and to be more productive to drive economic growth. That is a win-win. It is good for the country and good for individuals and their families.
My Lords, it is time to hear from the Green Benches now.
Returning to the case of the WASPI women and the Government’s ruling against them, can the Minister tell me whether the fact that the Government have overruled the evidence-based decision of the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman is likely to be open to legal challenge? If there is a legal challenge, will the fact that the Labour Party campaigned for WASPI women during the election campaign have an impact on the case?
My Lords, I think anything is open to legal challenge if one can find a lawyer to take a case. There have been legal challenges in the past on this decision. If there are again challenges, the Government will present their case. The noble Baroness mentioned that the ombudsman looked at the evidence —so did the Government. We looked very carefully at the evidence. One of the things we have been doing for the past six months is going through line by line every piece of evidence that the ombudsman offered, looking at the evidence we have and what we understand, and we reached evidence-driven conclusions. That is the basis on which we made the decision.
I recognise that it is not a decision that everybody is happy with. I recognise that there will be women born in the 1950s who are disappointed. But I am also convinced that most of the disappointment and, indeed, much of the campaigning and noise were actually about the change in the state pension age and its timing, rather than the very narrow decision that the ombudsman took. The ombudsman said that it was simply about the way DWP communicated with people about the state pension age. The ombudsman found that between 1995 and 2004 the communications were absolutely fine. There was a 28-month period when, although other communications were out there, such as campaigns, employer campaigns et cetera, those letters should have been sent earlier. We have accepted that, and if any legal case comes we will present our case in court, as we always do.
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Lords Chamber(1 week, 1 day ago)
Lords ChamberThat the Report from the Select Committee New committee activity in 2025 (3rd Report, HL Paper 56) be agreed to.
My Lords, at the start of this year, the House appointed four special inquiry committees on, respectively, the Modern Slavery Act 2015, preterm birth, statutory inquiries, and food, diet and obesity. All those committees have now published their reports. I give my considerable thanks to all Members who contributed to those inquiries and indeed to all our committee work during the year, particularly in light of the timetable changes due to the general election. I take this opportunity to place on record my considerable thanks—and, I believe, those on behalf of the House—to all officials who have supported the work of your Lordships’ Select Committees this year.
I turn to the proposed special inquiry committees for next year. The Liaison Committee received 45 high- quality suggestions from noble Lords, a record number of proposals, which illustrates well the range of interests and expertise across your Lordships’ House. All the proposals have been published on the committee’s website.
As ever, the Liaison Committee faced a difficult task. We assessed the proposals against our published criteria, which are that the committee should make best use of the knowledge and experience of Members, complement the work of existing Select Committees, including Commons departmental Select Committees, address areas of policy that cross departmental boundaries and be capable of being completed within 10 months. We also took into account wider factors, such as the overall balance of topics selected and work being undertaken by other committees and within government.
As our report sets out, we decided to propose four special inquiry committees on: home-based working, social mobility policy, UK engagement with space, and the Autism Act 2009. As is often the case, the proposed committee includes one post-legislative scrutiny topic and three general special inquiry topics. I hope noble Lords agree that the committee’s recommendations cover a wide range of subjects that will make a significant contribution to debate and policy-making and will make excellent use of Members’ backgrounds and expertise. I beg to move.
That the draft regulations laid before the House on 22 May, 31 October and 4 November be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 17 December.
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Lords ChamberThat the draft regulations and orders laid before the House on 6 and 11 November be approved.
Relevant document: 9th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 17 December.
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Lords ChamberMy Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 173A in the name of my noble friend Lord Moynihan and Amendment 173B in the name of my noble friend Lord Hayward.
The amendments in this first group carry on from our discussion on the licensing regime on the previous day of Committee. The amendments rightly deserve their own group since they relate to the specific financial conditions that clubs will be required to abide by as part of their licensing conditions. My Amendment 172, which is in the name also of my noble friend Lord Parkinson, would remove Clause 22(3)(c). That provision permits the regulator to restrict the overall expenditure of a regulated club. We do not believe the regulator should be able to attach a discretionary licence condition which places an overarching restriction on a club’s expenditure. This is surely an overreach of the regulator’s financial powers. The point has been made on many occasions, not least by the Minister, that the aim of this Bill is to ensure the financial sustainability and resilience of football clubs. How would telling a club how much money it may spend aid it in achieving that goal?
The key thing here is not expenditure but profit. Spending £50 million on a player might sound like a lot, but if that player is worth £60 million, I think we would all call that good business. An expenditure cap could stop that happening. If the goal is financial sustainability, surely the focus needs to be on profit or cash, not on expenditure. It is almost like a manager of a football club saying, “Look, it’s not just good enough that you go out and win today. We want you to score in the first half, then the other team can equalise and then we need you to score the winner in the last couple of minutes of the game”. It is trying to micromanage and overengineer. No one can ever do that.
My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 173A standing in my name on the Order Paper. Here, we are referring to Clause 32, and it is the Secretary of State who will be taking a power beyond this Bill, not even by positive resolution but by using a much lighter negative resolution procedure, to determine the time period for the approval of new owners and offices. I quote from the Government’s memorandum to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which states that
“the contents of the IFR’s suitability tests may likely change, compared to when the Bill is introduced … Once the contents of the IFR’s tests are set in statute, the Government will be better placed to set the time window in regulations”.
This is, after all, an important clause which addresses the scope of powers to attach or vary discretionary licence conditions. I would have thought that the consultation period should be very specific and placed on the face of the Bill. There is a risk here that the regulator may not consult the clubs in the leagues and just hurry the process through, which I am sure is not the intention, but why on earth not put it on the face of the Bill—not only which clubs and leagues are affected—which is not part of the Bill, as we have previously debated?
The very least the Government can do on this occasion is amend this clause, given the scale of these powers, and change the scope of the manifold discretionary licence conditions that the Government, not the regulators, are imposing on football clubs here. They must consult them. It seems eminently sensible that they should consult them, and I would have thought that the Minister would be the first to say that they will consult them. If they will, I cannot understand why we would not put that in the Bill.
My amendment says simply that, before submitting a request under subsection (6), the regulator must consult, first, the clubs; secondly, “each specified competition organiser”; and, thirdly, such other persons as the regulator considers appropriate. The consultation, as it stands, is not specific enough and risks the regulator not consulting the clubs and leagues on this issue. I really do believe that there would be every intention for the regulator to do so, so let us just clarify that in the Bill so that there is no danger that the regulator would avoid that possibility. I hope my amendment gains the approval of the Minister when she comes to wind up.
My Lords, I speak in support of Amendment 173B, tabled by my noble friend Lord Hayward, who I hope feels better soon. It introduces a number of key principles for the governance of capital buffer requirements that the IFR could potentially impose. This amendment fills an important gap in the Bill. I am also supportive of other amendments encouraging the IFR to adopt an outcome-focused approach, allowing the leagues to develop detailed financial rules within the overall statutory framework, as this will help to preserve the competitive balance with the design of common rules for all clubs. I am sure that the Minister will agree that this approach reflects the light-touch model that she has been describing.
As we heard in our debate on Monday, the Bill allows for a more interventionist approach for the IFR with individual clubs, through its discretionary licence conditions. In these cases, it is important that some clear parameters are set out in the Bill to ensure that any capital buffer requirements that may be developed are workable, proportionate and reflective of football’s realities.
Football clubs operate in vastly different financial contexts, even within the same pyramid. At one end, a relatively modest capital buffer of, say, enough to cover six months of operating costs might have saved a club such as Bury, for instance. But, at the other end, the challenges faced by Premier League clubs are of an entirely different scale. For a Premier League club relegated to the Championship, or indeed a club expecting but then failing to qualify for the Champions League, I understand that the financial shock can amount to as much as £90 million to £100 million.
Crucially, the way these clubs manage such risks is fundamentally different from clubs in lower leagues. At this level, as we have heard, clubs do not rely on cash reserves alone. Instead, they utilise a range of financial tools, including player trading, which is a core part of football’s economic model, as well as secured credit facilities—often backed by guaranteed revenues—and parachute payments, which I know we will discuss later and which help with the transition on relegation.
Without explicit reference in the Bill, there is a danger that the IFR might impose overly rigid liquidity requirements that would privilege clubs with access to unlimited working capital—I am thinking, for instance, of those backed by sovereign wealth funds—while unfairly disadvantaging others. This amendment would ensure that capital buffers reflect the real-world financial tools that clubs use to manage risk, including non-cash assets, as I have just described.
The single most important liquid asset for football clubs towards the top of the pyramid is their players. As I am sure my noble friend Lady Brady can tell us, player trading is often one of the first mechanisms that they turn to when managing financial shocks—yet the Bill provides no clarity on how the IFR will treat these assets. Even when player liquidity is recognised, valuation of these assets is critical. Under current UEFA financial fair play rules, players developed through academies are often valued at zero, for instance, based on book value, rather than their actual market worth. The purpose of UEFA’s rules is different, but, if copied by the IFR for the purposes of capital buffers, for instance, this could penalise clubs such as Crystal Palace, Southampton, West Ham or Arsenal, which have brought through many talents into their first teams in recent years.
This amendment therefore seeks to ensure that the IFR adopts sophisticated valuation methodology, including proper independent valuation of players and, in particular, a proper recognition of the value of academy players. Without these safeguards, the IFR risks undervaluing clubs’ most significant assets, forcing them to meet capital buffer requirements that are, in practice, unnecessary.
We have heard many times in this Committee that the competitive balance is the lifeblood of football, but poorly designed capital buffer requirements could easily and accidentally disrupt this balance. We must avoid this outcome, so I hope that even if the Minister is unable to accept the level of specificity in Amendment 173B, she will recognise that this area of the Bill is a source of anxiety for clubs. I hope she will agree that the principles within this amendment are important and that it is the Government’s intention that the IFR pursues a tailored approach, informed by guidance, that will protect the competitive balance and investability of the English game.
My Lords, I declare again my interest as counsel for Manchester City Football Club in recent disciplinary proceedings brought by the Premier League. I offer my support to Amendment 173A from the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan. We discussed the principle of consultation on Monday evening. I repeat that, in my view, consultation with clubs and specified competition organisers is vital to ensure that they have confidence in the operations of the regulator. It is also vital to ensure that the regulator is operating, as he or she would want to do, in a fair manner. I very much hope that the Minister will give consideration to that and bring an amendment back on Report, in relation to Amendment 173A and earlier provisions of the Bill.
I am far less keen, I regret to say, on Amendment 172 from the noble Lord, Lord Markham, which seeks, as I understand it, to remove from the Bill the discretionary licence condition relating to restricting the clubs’ overall expenditure. I suggest that it is important to see the limits of that power of the regulator, because Clause 22(4) provides that this discretionary licence condition
“may not impose restrictions on expenditure of a particular kind or a particular transaction”.
As I understand it—the Minister will say whether or not this is correct—the regulator would therefore not have the power, using the example given by the noble Lord, Lord Markham, to say, “You can’t buy a particular player for £50 million”, as that would be outside the scope of Clause 22.
It is not difficult to see that there may be circumstances —one hopes that they would be very rare indeed—where the regulator takes the view that its objective under Clause 6
“to protect and promote the financial soundness of regulated clubs”,
which is what it is there for, would be damaged if it did not have a power to restrict in exceptional circumstances a club’s overall expenditure.
My Lords, I am beginning to wish I had jumped up before the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, because I have come to a similar conclusion.
For every success story in football, if you look you will find a failure. It is often the case when people come forward and buy themselves the dream team, then something goes wrong. You will find that especially in the lower levels. There are stories of those clubs, with Bury et cetera copping out, that have more expenditure going out on wages than they have coming in from revenue. If the regulator does not have the power to stop that speculative spending in certain circumstances, it is being denied a basic power over one of the biggest problems that has led to instability, particularly in the lower parts of the game. After some of the discussions we had on this, I really cannot see how we can support the lead amendment here and still have the central thrust of the Bill.
How will the regulator assess the slightly strange finances of investing in people who are always one trip away from being worth nothing? One accident on a training field and your principal asset is worth nothing. How is that taken into account and balanced, which would require a level of expertise? Does the Minister have examples of where information will be gathered to make a sensible assessment on this?
On speculative purchases, we have heard about deals with agents, et cetera, on other parts of this Bill; it is important to bear in mind how these are done. If the Minister has information on how that information will be gathered and those assessments made, I would be very interested to hear it.
My Lords, I hope the Minister will bear in mind that the repeated statements “For every winner there is a loser”, “The Premier League is in terrible danger” or “Football is in terrible danger” just ignore the fact that football is tremendously successful in this country. If for every winner there is a loser, there would have been no progress in the last 20 years. There has been progress and enormous success. We now have the greatest football league in the world. The statement that “Your biggest asset is only one accident on a training ground away from being worth nothing” completely ignores the fact that all football assets—all players—are insured. If, God forbid, your best player was injured irrevocably on the training ground, you would receive an enormous insurance payment, so it is just not true. The actual commercial realities of what is going on in football in this country seem to be completely mis-stated so often in this Chamber. I hope that the Minister will take heed of the tremendous success that private enterprise, unfettered by an onerous regulator, has created in the world of football in our country.
I will sum up on a couple of new points. I always welcome comments from the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, because his forensic brain is really helpful in making sure we get to the bottom of what we are talking about. I have only just had a chance to look up Clause 22(4); this is about the regulator’s ability to restrict expenditure. It says that the regulator
“may not impose restrictions on expenditure of a particular kind or a particular transaction”.
That can be open-ended, unless the particular kind or particular transactions are defined somewhere; they could refer to anything. I do not know if the Lord, Lord Pannick, is aware of what they refer to, but perhaps the Minister could follow up on that, either now or in writing.
I thank the noble Lords, Lord Markham, Lord Moynihan and Lord Hayward, for tabling these amendments, and the noble Lords, Lord Markham and Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, for giving notice of their intention to oppose the question that Clause 22 stand part of the Bill. Like other noble Lords, I wish the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, a swift recovery and hope to see him back for the next day of consideration by this Committee.
I will start with Amendment 172 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Markham. It is vital that the regulator has the appropriate tools to address systemic financial risks that might arise. Indeed, in recent years clubs have faced a number of systemic risks, such as during the Covid-19 pandemic, when many clubs faced financial difficulties, some of which are still felt by clubs today.
The ability to restrict clubs’ overall expenditure may be the most appropriate and effective tool in certain circumstances. The noble Lord, Lord Markham, asked about limiting expenditure, which is already used within football. Some leagues already have rules limiting expenditure on wages and limits on permissive losses. I reassure him that the regulator is further constrained when taking action here. First, we have made it absolutely clear that the regulator has the ability only to restrict overall expenditure. It cannot place restrictions around specific transactions or types of transactions, to micromanage spending in that way.
Furthermore, the regulatory principles enshrined in the Bill in Clause 8 include the principle that the regulator should act proportionately. We would expect this to be reflected in any discretionary licence condition that the regulator sets. Restricting overall expenditure might be the most proportionate and least interventionist or burdensome response to these risks. Without this tool, it might have to apply a different response that may be more restrictive or less effective.
I turn to Amendment 173A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, to which the noble Lords, Lord Pannick and Lord Addington, also spoke. While we appreciate the intent, we are confident that clubs and competition organisers would already be captured under the current wording in the Bill, of persons the regulator “considers appropriate”. As I have outlined in previous debates, the Government do not believe it is necessary or appropriate to put an exhaustive list of stakeholders in the Bill. I appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, has a different view, but we feel that the regulator will be best placed to determine which persons are appropriate to consult depending on the decision in question. However, I look forward to further discussions with him on this point.
The regulator is required to consult anyone it considers appropriate. Failing to do so would be a breach of its statutory obligations and could result in legal challenge—
I was not for a minute suggesting that there should be an exhaustive list that should be consulted; I was simply highlighting three very specific groups of people who should be consulted, which I think the Minister agrees with. There should be no doubt in the minds of the Committee that if you simply list clubs and competition organisers and then say “such other persons as the regulator considers appropriate”, you capture everything she has just said and make it very clear that the regulator will approach and consult clubs and competition organisers—which is the whole purpose behind this clause and surely one that has her full support. Why not simply clarify it in a very simple additional nine words?
I hear what the noble Lord says and look forward to further discussions with him on that point, but we feel that the regulator will be best placed to determine which persons are appropriate to consult.
I am sorry to keep on at the Minister about this, but can she really think of any circumstances in which it would be appropriate for the regulator not to consult the competition organisers and the clubs in this context? If the answer to that is “Of course not”, let us put it in the Bill and make it clear.
I recognise the strength of feeling on this point and look forward to discussing this further as we proceed through the Bill’s progress in this House.
Amendment 173B is in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, and the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park, spoke to it in his absence. Its intention is to place procedural requirements around the regulator’s use of capital buffers as part of a liquidity requirement. First, I reassure noble Lords that the model of financial regulation is about making clubs more financially resilient.
The noble Lord, Lord Markham, raised an issue that has been discussed previously in this Committee, where owners tragically die and the issues this can cause clubs, which is that clubs will have to submit detailed financial plans, including contingency plans. This could include what the club would do in the event of a financial shock such as the sudden loss of an owner.
If the regulator has concerns about the level of financial risk exhibited in a range of scenarios, it can place discretionary licence conditions on clubs in limited areas. That does not necessarily mean that owners will have to put funding in up front. If the regulator does reach for liquidity requirements, there are already safeguards. Indeed, the amendment seeks to require the regulator to have regard to a number of considerations, but in each case the Bill already requires this.
When assessing whether to attach the discretionary licence conditions needed to meet the appropriate financial resources threshold condition, the regulator will already be fully informed of the club’s financial position because clubs have to submit a financial plan, which would already include detail of any existing liquidity buffers. Consideration of proportionality and existing financial rules is covered by the regulatory principles in Clause 8(c) and (d). Again, consideration of the impact on competitiveness and investment is covered by the regulator’s duties in Clause 7(2). Therefore, this is all already accounted for.
I thank the Minister for her response and thank noble Lords for all the contributions to the debate on this amendment.
On Amendment 172 and the expenditure cap, the Minister referred to league rules on permitted losses, and that is exactly the point I am trying to make: permitted losses are different from expenditure. I completely get why you might have rules trying to prevent permitted losses, but with permitted expenditure you can spend a lot and still make a profit, and that is a good thing. Maybe we can explore further whether Clause 22(4) allows clubs, despite everything, to still spend money on players. As per the example I gave earlier, I am not quite sure that it does, but again, it would be good to consult or work on that later.
On Amendment 173A, tabled by my noble friend Lord Moynihan, as pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, I do not think any of us could envisage the regulator not consulting the clubs and the competitions, so it seems sensible to have that in the Bill. Again, I hope the Minister will be able to look at that.
On Amendment 173B and my noble friend Lord Hayward’s point about capital buffers, this really is an area of huge concern. The Minister said, “Well, if you’re reliant on an owner, maybe they need to provide more examples of how they could cater for that financial shock if they were to die”. The trouble is, as with so many clubs at that stage, that was exactly the Brighton and Brentford model—they were reliant at that stage on the owners bankrolling them behind what was a very sensible plan. But if, God forbid, something had happened to them during that stage, clearly, they would have gone, and if they had been asked to put aside some money as a buffer against that, that would have made their plan much harder to achieve. I know it is the view of both clubs that they may well never have embarked on those plans in the first place, because it was tough enough to begin with, and having to set some money aside makes the hurdle even higher. So again, I would appreciate it if we could return to that issue.
The last point about this clause overall, which goes right to the point the noble Lord, Lord Addington, made, is that there is a fundamental difference here. He said that for every success there is a failure, and that we have to stop that speculative spending. With Brighton and Brentford, it absolutely was speculative spending. With any team that invests in players ahead of their revenue, that is speculative spending. That is the excitement of the league and of the game: there are no guarantees of success behind any of that. But if we seek to restrict that, we are seeking to restrict the whole competitive element of the game we love: football.
The reality is that we cannot point to many failures; I think there have been two since the war. I do not want any failures, but are we really trying to prevent any club trying to embark on those success stories— I hope we are seeing it again now with Wrexham, who have come very far—because we want to protect against any failures whatsoever? That is the fundamental difference we are talking about here.
We have seen examples of asset stripping, and I absolutely agree that we want to guard against it. But owners wanting to put in a lot of money in order to really get behind a club, invest in players and gain promotion—to me, that is the fundamental spirit of the game we all love. I therefore hope that we will be able to return to that issue, but at this stage I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
My Lords, our Benches at the back here have three amendments in this group. They cover modern slavery, human rights and slave ownership. The purpose behind the amendments is to flesh out from my noble friend the Minister how the independent football regulator may approach some of these issues.
As we have heard on a number of occasions during debates on the Bill, football clubs are more than just businesses. They are community institutions; they have values, and they have provided some of the best examples of taking on social issues over the last few decades. We are trying to establish whether there should be a test that mandates having robust human rights due diligence and the ways in which owners can be held to account and prevent harm. State ownership and those two issues are inevitably bound up. We will recall from the ownership debates that circulated around Newcastle United when it was taken over some years ago the considerable concern expressed.
In updating the individual ownership fitness criteria to include reference to human rights and modern slavery, we have taken account of Amnesty International’s proposed amendments to the previous Premier League test. The United Nations Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights, which the UK was the first country in the world officially to implement through a national action plan, requires all states and businesses to prevent, address and remedy human rights abuses where they occur.
It is our contention in putting these amendments forward that we need to have a view on state ownership but also on the role that the IFR may play in trying to establish thresholds and principles around such issues as modern slavery and human rights, because these things are important. They are important to football fans; they are important to the moral and guiding principles behind our businesses, and, more generally, we should use the opportunity of having a regulator for football that has a view on these issues when it comes to judging the merits—or otherwise—of those who seek to own important institutions such as football clubs. I beg to move.
My Lords, there is no doubt that the amendment means well. It is laudable that we encourage football clubs and the football community to take seriously these important issues around human rights and modern slavery. My concern is about the wording, because I believe that the inclusion of such an amendment in the Bill in respect of the appropriateness of an owner will give rise to unnecessary litigation. Let us remember that the amendment does not distinguish between an individual and a football club. If it were to do so, it would be more sustainable in terms of developing policies around human rights and combating modern slavery. However, it does not do that. It is nebulous in its wording, and I think the drafting would cause grave difficulty because it references individuals—the owner, in essence—meaning that there will be problems down the line in how the amendment is interpreted.
It is a value judgment as to whether an individual respects human rights. What does that actually mean in primary legislation? How do you measure it? What is its objectivity? What does success look like in terms of respect? The wording is very loose and would be very difficult—
Our wording mirrors the wording in Clause 28, which says:
“A person may not become an owner of a particular regulated club unless”,
so I do not think that the wording is the point here.
I understand the point that the noble Lord makes, but I am reading the amendment that he has tabled. The third word is “promotes”. What does that mean in terms of an objective criterion for how an individual would promote human rights, and for how he or she would protect the human rights of those involved in football and the club that they were involved with? The amendment is an example of potential regulatory overreach. Seeking to enforce it would be a straightforward prima facie case of ultra vires actions, because it would be unenforceable.
Having said that, I have great sympathy with the noble Lord’s Amendment 200 on state ownership of football clubs. We will have a good debate on that. However, on Amendment 178, the noble Lord is gilding the lily. Although he has good intentions, it is not a workable amendment. It would damage the interests of football clubs and be difficult for the regulator properly to enforce.
My Lords, I support Amendment 178. Indeed, I have come in specifically to speak on the issue of modern slavery and I declare an interest as a co-chair of the modern slavery parliamentary group and vice-chair of the Human Trafficking Foundation.
I profoundly disagree with what the previous noble Lord said about individual ownership fitness criteria in relation to modern slavery. Under the Modern Slavery Act 2015—Section 56, I think—it is wrong to have a supply chain that operates on the exploitation of those who provide the goods for a company. So, if you have an individual owning a company who makes his money on the exploitation of people in the supply chain, it should not be all that difficult to discover it. That is absolutely where the regulator should be promoting modern slavery issues when he looks at the individual fitness of a person who wants to take over a club.
I see the point on human rights, although we have the Human Rights Act and it is fairly clear under that Act what the rights are of various people that might be impinged by an individual who did not have appropriate fitness criteria. I can see—
I thank the noble and learned Baroness for most generously giving way. If we have statutory sanctions already in place to deal with this behaviour, whether it is the Human Rights Act or the Modern Slavery Act, surely she is proving my case that this is regulatory overreach. My point is that we do not need further legislation when it is already covered by the existing legislation.
I do not want to deal with human rights. I have come here to deal with modern slavery. I disagree with the noble Lord. The problem is that Section 56 is voluntary and not mandatory. Consequently, companies are not obliged to follow what happens. In a 2019 review led by Lord Field of Birkenhead, of which I was a part, we picked up the fact that it was not mandatory. Consequently, if the regulator does not have to think about modern slavery, he would not have to look to see whether or not an individual taking over a club is making his money in a wholly inappropriate and extremely wicked way. Because it is not mandatory, it is important that someone else looks at it. If it were mandatory, I would entirely agree with the noble Lord.
Is it the case that the reason it is not mandatory is that Parliament did not think it should be? Therefore, the question is: why should it be imposed in this context and not generally?
Section 56 says that it is utterly wrong to have companies that make money by exploiting people down the chain—consequently, it is wrong. But, for reasons I do not know but can guess, the last Government, who put in place this very good bit of legislation, presumably did not want to offend businesses. I understand that there are problems in making it mandatory but, if somebody is making money that they are going to put into a football club by exploiting other people down the chain, that is something we should not want our clubs to be involved in.
My Lords, I was unable to join your Lordships at Second Reading and have decided to add my name, and speak, only to amendments on areas where I have relevant knowledge. I speak as somebody who has for a number of years been a co-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Democracy and Human Rights in the Gulf, and also led the first ever debate on sportswashing in your Lordships’ House in March of this year. Therefore, I will speak in favour of the amendments I have added my name to—Amendment 185 and in particular Amendment 193 from my noble friend Lord McNally, who cannot be here in his place today. I also strongly support Amendment 200 on state entities.
It is interesting listening to the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, and other noble Lords talk about human rights and the Human Rights Act. Let us be clear. What the regulator will be doing here is having a statutory responsibility for ensuring that a takeover of a club takes into consideration human rights issues. Under the Human Rights Act an individual can bring a case based on their feeling that their human rights have been undermined. If you are in Saudi Arabia, Qatar or the UAE, you cannot bring that case as an individual whose human rights have been undermined, particularly when it comes to a state entity potentially taking over a football club. That is what these amendments are about. Rather than just financial issues, when it comes to a takeover of a club, as a statutory point of principle human rights should be looked at by the regulator independently to decide whether a potential director is a fit and proper person to be able to take over and manage an English football club. That is what this debate is about.
It is interesting that certain issues in the Bill are specific, such as money laundering, so the Government have accepted that the regulator can look at specific issues. These amendments ask that another area specified in the Bill should be human rights abuses carried out not just in the UK but elsewhere in the world, particularly when it is a state entity or an individual linked to a state entity. The reason why this is important is that the concept of sportswashing, where sports clubs are bought particularly to try to influence soft power, is really taking hold. The previous Government understood that when it came to taking over media in this country. There was an issue to do with how state-entity organisations, including their potential human rights abuses, actually stopped takeover of the media.
I am sure that the Minister, when it comes to arguing the Government’s case if they are not minded to do this, will look at the Global Human Rights Sanctions Regulations 2020 as the cloak of respectability, where the powers already exist for this to be looked at. Well, let us be clear. These were introduced with the aim of holding individuals and entities accountable for human rights abuses. However, these regulations are not proving efficient in stopping foreign Government entities from owning Premier League clubs, or any league club. The Newcastle deal, where the Saudi Public Investment Fund took over Newcastle, happened 15 months after these regulations came into force.
These regulations target individuals and specific entities, not entire Governments or sovereign wealth funds. This is a critical loophole which we can see in the case of Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund, which now owns Newcastle United and operates a state-controlled entity that presents itself as independent of government. As a result, it evades direct scrutiny under the sanctions framework. There is also a lack of transparency with these regulations, because decisions about who we sanction are not clear and are at the whim of an individual Minister. That is why I believe there should be the provisions in the Bill laid down in Amendment 200 and the other amendments which I put my name to.
The Global Human Rights Sanctions Regulations lack the reach and enforcement power to prevent foreign state entities linked to human rights abuses owning English Premier League clubs. That is why these amendments are required. Otherwise, I believe that our national game, football, will potentially remain a platform for authoritarian regimes or individuals who have committed human rights abuses and will be used as a sportswashing exercise that will tarnish their own reputations and image and not defend our national game.
My Lords, in speaking to Amendments 178, 185 and 199, I draw attention to my interests in the register. I thank my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss for her contribution to the debate this afternoon.
Among the detail of what a regulator may or may not look like, we spent some time noting para football and how it can change and improve lives, and almost change the world. I would imagine that modern slavery is something that we would want to try to impact. Major games, such as the Olympics and the Paralympics, have made strong commitments in this area, as well as around trafficking. Their success is up for debate, but surely football and sport should try to leave the world a better place, and so I believe that these amendments are important.
Briefly, Amendment 199 is about the ownership of clubs. We have debated Reading and Aston Villa at length. This amendment merely seeks to strengthen the owners’ and directors’ test.
My Lords, I think a very strong case has been made this afternoon by the noble Lords, Lord Bassam and Lord Scriven, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and my noble friend Lady Grey-Thompson to require the regulator to assess whether a prospective owner of a football club respects and promotes the protection of human rights and prevents modern slavery.
I am very sympathetic to the principle. I am just concerned about the practicality. Is it really practical to expect that the regulator is going to have the expertise, time or ability to conduct a general assessment of whether a particular person—who may, for all I know, be based abroad—is generally respecting human rights and preventing modern slavery? This is going to take an enormous amount of time and money, and I fear that it would distract the regulator from the more day-to-day, prosaic functions that Parliament will be asking it to perform. I would be pleased to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, how this is going to work in practice, because I am very sceptical.
Does the noble Lord accept that it already takes place for certain individuals and entities with regard to the regulations that I pointed out, and that the Government already have a system in place to do this for takeovers? The issue is that there are gaps, which is why it needs to be in this Bill, particularly around football and state entities.
I entirely accept that there are detailed regulations, in particular in relation to money laundering, but that is a far more specific area, where there is a government system and a whole army of people with expertise to assess those matters. The question is whether we wish to make it a function of the independent football regulator to have a whole department that is concerned with this. I see the force of the principle, but I remain sceptical about it in practice.
My Lords, this is one of the best debates we have had in Committee to date. I am equally sympathetic to the points made by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the interventions of the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, and the concern about the practicality of this, but none of that is covered in Amendment 200, which is in this group.
Let us just assume, hypothetically, that a state-owned entity acquiring a football club in England has an excellent human rights record and no problems with modern slavery. Under Amendment 200, it would be banned from owning a club in England because it is state-controlled. All the points that have been made are relevant and important, but Amendment 200, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, is very specific and states that:
“No state-controlled club may be granted an operating licence”.
There is no reference to human rights abuses or to any of the important issues regarding the supply chain, which have been mentioned. It simply states that a foreign-owned, state-controlled company cannot own an English football club. If we pass this amendment, immediately we would then have to divest the Abu Dhabi United Group of its majority ownership of Manchester City and Saudi Arabia’s Public Investment Fund of its ownership of Newcastle United, to mention but two cases.
How have the Premier League and UEFA addressed this to date? They have focused on the word “control”. When the Premier League addressed the Newcastle ownership test, it received “legally binding guarantees” that the state of Saudi Arabia would not have control over Newcastle United in the event of any deal. However, the Bill goes much further. It grants powers to the regulator that are not just about control. An individual has to be considered who has
“a higher degree of influence”
over the ownership of a club. The control test that UEFA and the Premier League currently use, which is a tough test that takes up a lot of time and energy, is overridden by a requirement in this legislation—for the first time in sport—to test whether an individual has a higher degree of influence. There can be no doubt that the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, as chair of the PIF, has a very high degree of influence over that board —he appoints it. Indeed, a Minister from that board has been appointed to be chairman of Newcastle.
If we go forward and accept Amendment 200 as it stands, what would we be saying to football, to Newcastle, to the Qataris—who might want to acquire a company, which there has been much speculation about, not least in this Committee—and to Abu Dhabi in relation to Man City? It would drive a coach and horses through the current ownership of the Premier League. It would be a very serious decision by the Government to take state control over who owns the football clubs in this country.
I say that because it comes down to the degree of state influence that is behind the regulator. The Government have said:
“Regarding the scope of the tests, we recognise the trade-offs involved, and are aware of the range of corporate structures behind clubs”,
and they specifically mention here sovereign wealth funds. They go on to say:
“We are designing the legal scope of the tests with these challenges in mind”.
They call them challenges, to be faced down at the request of government. We would have an open back door in the Bill if we accepted the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, straying into foreign policy in a way that we do not currently do. We have plenty of legislation elsewhere on the statute book allowing the Government to intervene if they felt they needed to in a certain circumstance.
The Government have therefore further confirmed the scope of the regulator. To me, it is incredibly important that the regulator is not given so many powers as to require it to have direct influence. I lost an amendment on Monday night, when I asked for that at least to be defined and for consultation to go out to find out what “significant influence” means in this context. I think that is extremely important.
I have a question for the Minister. I cannot find an answer as a result of the debates we have had so far, but football needs an answer and probably needs it now. Is it the Government’s position that the Crown Prince, Mohammed bin Salman, should be able to own Newcastle United under the definition of ownership in the Bill? It is a very simple question, with a yes or no answer. If yes, why have Ministers deliberately constructed a Bill that will quickly put him through the ownership test of significant influence, and why did the Minister confirm on Monday that she wanted incumbent Heads of State to be tested? If no then surely the Government should say so, and we should have that as part of an open debate.
I hope that, if that question is answered this evening, there will be no doubt in future about what the Government intend, not least following the Prime Minister’s visit to Saudi Arabia last week and his offer to go to a football match with the Crown Prince. It is only reasonable for Saudi Arabia and the Crown Prince to know whether he is expected to divest himself of the interest in Newcastle United or not.
My Lords, I welcome my noble friend Lord Scriven to this debate and congratulate him on making those points. When it comes to the modern slavery amendments—to take on the point from the noble Lord, Lord Pannick—if other people are looking at this, surely the regulator should be able to take their opinion. Surely that would be a reasonable step. If the Bill does not allow that, I am sure we could do that quite easily.
On state ownership, I put my name to Amendment 200 because I thought that at the very least we deserved an answer. The previous Government’s Back-Benchers did not like the Telegraph under control and, let us face it, more people have heard of Newcastle United than they have the Telegraph.
This is an important point. Are we happy with a cultural asset being in the hands of a foreign power, regardless of the fact that we have a reasonably good relationship with it on most things? It is not all things, as we do not like certain things about it. That is a real question, and the Minister is being asked a series of real questions. I hope that at the end of this we will know whether these points are worth pursuing at other stages of the Bill. These questions really should be answered, and I look forward to the Minister’s response.
My Lords, we have indeed touched on the matter of foreign ownership elsewhere in the Committee’s discussions. I am very glad we have had the opportunity to have a proper debate on it this afternoon, and I agree with my noble friend Lord Moynihan that it has been a very good one.
Of course, there are, and have long been, a number of clubs in English football with some element of foreign ownership, whether through individuals or investment vehicles. Many of them have been very generous funders of the sport and in certain cases have turned clubs around for the better, with huge benefits to their communities. But there is a fine line to tread here between maintaining that inward investment and openness to the world, and preventing malign interference.
I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, has been able to join the Committee today. I enjoyed the debate he brought on sportswashing, to which I responded. We touched on some of these matters, and my view when speaking from the Dispatch Box opposite, which I still share, is that there is a distinction to be made between news organisations, which provide information to the populus, and sports organisations. As my noble friend Lord Moynihan has pointed out on previous groups, sport has always succeeded in rising above politics and has often been a forum in which people can raise complicated issues and foster dialogue between countries that may not be able to talk about things directly quite so easily.
The amendments in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, and the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, address modern slavery once again. I am conscious that we had Amendment 153 on modern slavery from the noble Lord, Lord Mann, in that rather strange miscellaneous group the other day, so I will not repeat what I said about the issue then. But I am interested in and broadly supportive of the issues they are raising and very glad to have heard the contribution of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, who has done such important work in this area. I am glad we have been able to return to the issue of modern slavery and let other noble Lords add their voices to what we said when we were debating Amendment 153 on Monday.
As someone from Tyneside, I must add my concern about the implications of Amendment 200 from the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, which, among other things, would prevent clubs being owned by sovereign wealth funds. I think he accepts that if we were to accept his Amendment 200 the way he has worded it—he alluded to the Public Investment Fund of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia’s investment in Newcastle United—it would have the consequence that Newcastle might not be granted an operating licence and so would have to withdraw from the Premier League. I have to say that he would not be very popular on Tyneside if that were the case.
It would be very helpful to have some clarity from the Minister about how the regulator will deal with clubs that currently have foreign owners or foreign sovereign wealth fund investment, and how it might approach prospective owners from abroad in the future. Like others, I would be very keen to hear her answer to the questions that my noble friend Lord Moynihan has raised and repeated so powerfully today.
During the course of this Committee, the Prime Minister has visited the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. He was there just before it was announced as the host of the 2034 World Cup. He has invited the Crown Prince to come and watch a football match here in the UK when he next has the opportunity to visit. I would be interested to hear whether they discussed football and some of the issues we have discussed today, or indeed the thorny question of whether the Bill would bring the Crown Prince and the Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia into scope in the way that my noble friend Lord Moynihan has suggested.
I thank my noble friends Lord Bassam of Brighton and Lady Taylor of Bolton, as well as the noble Lords, Lord McNally and Lord Scriven, and the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for the amendments in this group. It has been a really thoughtful discussion around issues of note.
I particularly welcomed the opportunity to hear from a number of noble Lords who have not spoken previously on the Bill but who have contributed their expertise, including the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Lord, Lord Scriven. Their expertise led to a thoughtful debate. A number of noble Lords had interesting alternative perspectives as well. That included the perspective of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. It is right that we discuss these significant issues as we discuss what the role of the regulator should be.
On Amendments 178, 185 and 193, it is absolutely right that clubs have suitable owners. That is why the new statutory owners’ and directors’ test is a key focus of the regulatory regime. A core part of this is the fitness test, which these amendments seek to expand. The individual ownership fitness test criteria are based on precedents specifically relevant to whether somebody is suitable to be an owner of a football club.
I would like to reassure my noble friend that much of what the amendments seek to achieve is already delivered within the current drafting. If an individual has had legal—whether civil or criminal—regulatory or disciplinary action of any kind brought against them, and that action has a bearing on their honesty or integrity, the regular must take that into account. This could then be used to find them unsuitable under the tests in this legislation.
The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, spoke specifically on modern slavery in relation to current legislation. I welcome the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, around keeping the regulator focused on issues that it can deal with effectively. Offences under the Modern Slavery Act are included in Schedule 1 to the Serious Crime Act, so the regulator will have to consider them in particular when determining whether an owner meets the fitness criteria.
If there are concerns about what is covered in the Modern Slavery Act, there are more appropriate places to discuss this, perhaps outside the Committee. I would be very happy to talk to noble Lords and the noble and learned Baroness outside the Committee to give them some reassurance on the points they have raised.
Any human rights violations that have given rise to legal, regulatory or disciplinary action against the owner in any forum can be considered, and so are egregious actions committed outside the UK that would have been criminal if carried out here. I assure noble Lords that these are things the regulator would—
There is a specific issue with the Gulf states. If people are potentially put to death for being gay in a state, would that debar a state entity or an individual in that Government from owning an English club? It is a clear question.
I am going to come on to state ownership later in my speech, if the noble Lord would be happy to wait.
No, I would like an answer to this specific question, because the Minister gave a specific commitment with regard to what is in the Bill. I put a specific question based on what could happen, and on the laws of the land of a Gulf state. I wish to know: if that takes place, would someone who is related to that state through a state entity not be able to own a Premier League club in this country?
I would be grateful if the noble Lord allowed me to take away that specific example. I will write to him and to the Committee and place a letter in the Library, so that they have a detailed response on that point.
These are all issues that the regulator will take very seriously. Where the amendments before us today go further than existing drafting, this introduces elements that we do not believe are necessarily relevant to an owner’s suitability. They would require the regulator to make a subjective and potentially speculative judgment on whether the individual has engaged in any activity that would risk bringing the game into disrepute. Where a potential dispute relates to things like criminal history, the regulator will already have to consider these things. But “disrepute” is a vague term; could it arise through an owner’s conduct in their personal life, or their political views? In the Government’s view, it would put the regulator in quite a difficult position, making a value judgment on what constitutes disrepute, which would undermine the principle of a reasoned, evidence-based test.
Turning to Amendment 199 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, the test is supported by the regulator’s information-gathering powers to ensure its determination is evidence-based. These powers will help the regulator tackle unco-operative individuals or organisations that do not provide the information. However, let me be clear: if the regulator does not have enough evidence to make its determination, the individual will be found unsuitable.
I understand the noble Baroness’s concerns about restrictions on an owner’s funds. I want to reassure her that the test requires an owner to submit financial plans and demonstrate sufficient financial resources to run the club. As part of this, we expect that the regulator will consider things such as the liquidity of those resources and their availability to actually be used to fund the club. The regulator will also need to be satisfied that the owner does not have wealth connected to illicit finance. To do this, it can conduct enhanced due diligence on the owner’s source of wealth. This would identify any links to criminality, corruption and money-laundering. We believe, therefore, that the intent of the noble Baroness’s amendment is delivered in the current drafting of the Bill. I hope she takes reassurance from this, but I am happy to meet her to discuss this if my explanation has not satisfied her.
I turn to amendment 200 from my noble friend Lord Bassam of Brighton, which the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, also spoke to. This Government are not making a judgment on different forms of ownership. We recognise that good ownership can take many forms, and it is investment from responsible owners that has been a driving factor in the success of English football. Banning any one particular kind of ownership would not, in our view, be in keeping with the flexible and proportionate approach to regulation we are proposing. I believe that this approach has broad support across the Committee. Prospective owners with state backing will be assessed against the same set of criteria as any other prospective owner, on a case-by-case basis. I hope that answers the question about Newcastle from the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson.
I apologise for intervening on the Minister’s speech, but I did ask a very specific question, which I think she has answered but I would be grateful if she could make it clear to the Committee. Through the higher degree of influence test, which we have debated and understand, and which is unique to this regulatory framework, will the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia be subject to an ownership test—yes or no?
Any owner, with state backing or otherwise, will be assessed against the same set of criteria as any other prospective owner, on a case-by-case basis.
Yes. Prospective owners with state backing will be assessed against the same set of criteria and, by requiring new owners to undergo the regulator’s test, we better mitigate against harm to clubs by preventing unsuitable custodians ever becoming owners. Giving the regulator the power to test incumbent owners where there are concerns about their suitability ensures that any unsuitable owners can be removed.
The noble Lord, Lord Scriven, raised a comparison with the legal position on media organisations. Although football clubs up and down the country are vital community assets, they are not the cornerstone of our democracy that free media is. Investment from responsible owners has been a driving factor in the success of English football, which is why we are putting in place a stable regulatory environment that will continue to attract investors with a long-term prudent approach to growing football clubs as important community assets. What is important, in our view, is that owners are suitable, and the approach to testing owners set out in the Bill ensures just that.
This has been a hugely useful debate and, although I will have to come back on a number of points, I hope my response has provided some reassurance. But, for the reasons I have given, I would be grateful if my noble friends and other noble Lords would not press their amendments.
My Lords, I will of course happily withdraw the amendment in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Taylor and the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson. I have a few points to make in response. Generally, this has been a useful and valuable debate. We have had reassuring clarity from the Minister on the issues of concern.
The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, asked a practical question about how this would work. There is already an issue, in a sense, for the regulator to deal with. Under Clause 28(2)(a)(iv), the regulator will have to look for—and will certainly want to know—the source of funding. I can only assume that that is because we do not want the funding of our football clubs to be in any way under suspicion and/or linked to criminal activity, particularly human rights abuses and modern slavery. In Clause 28(2)(b), there is a fairly wide power for the independent football regulator to require information. Clearly, there are practical questions in carrying out inquiries and investigations into the source of funding that owners will offer up, but this is just one of those issues that will undoubtedly be tested over time.
I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, that putting amendments forward like this is tantamount to regulatory overreach. If we were not concerned about issues such as modern slavery and human rights abuses, we would be selling the world of football short.
Surely the noble Lord will concede something. Proposed new paragraph (f) in Amendment 185, which he signed, mentions
“whether A has been complicit in … non-crime hate incidents”.
We are talking about the ownership of a football club. What does complicit in a non-crime hate incident even mean in the context of a strategy to deal with human rights and potentially preventing someone, via primary legislation, owning a football club?
I would hope that we would be concerned by things like hate incidents—those are important considerations. I certainly do not want my football club to be associated in any way with that, and I know the club itself does not. I am sure that goes for most clubs up and down the country.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady, Butler-Sloss, and the Lib Dem Front Bench for their support. I take most of the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, as being broadly positive, in terms of what we were trying to achieve with this little group. The issues are important, and I assure the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, that I have no great desire to become massively unpopular with Newcastle United fans. I am probably a bit unpopular because Brighton seem to beat them regularly anyway.
But clearly, we should we look at these issues. State ownership is an issue we should keep under careful consideration. The Minister has said that all forms of ownership will be scrutinised in a similarly robust way, and we should be satisfied with that. So, having heard what was said, I am happy to withdraw my amendment.
My Lords, I hope that Amendment 180 will be much simpler, because is a bit niche and, dare I say it, anoraky in nature, for which I apologise. It would amend Clause 27 by removing subsection (7).
This subsection states that where a prospective owner or officer does not inform the regulator of their intention to become an owner or an officer
“as soon as reasonably practicable”,
that person must inform the regulator as soon as it is reasonably practicable. We probably understand the issue there. Not to mince my words, it is a slight tongue- twister. It is a bit confusing and nonsensical. In essence, it says that if someone has not told the regulator in the period when they were meant to, they must do so later
“as soon as reasonably practicable”.
I hope that this provision is a fairly simple one to tidy up. Again, I think we all understand the good intentions here, but I would be grateful if the Minister could clear that up. I will leave it to my noble friend Lord Moynihan to raise his amendments.
My Lords, I will be equally brief in proposing my Amendments 187ZA and 187ZB. The drafting of the Bill states that if the regulator takes too long to determine applications for new owners and officers, then the applicants are treated as not suitable under Clause 32(5), through absolutely no fault of their own. This is not aligned with practice in other regulated sectors. It could have an impact on that person wider than purely their involvement in the club and be detrimental to clubs that have only one potential new owner, who is deemed unsuitable purely because the regulator ran out of time.
The change that I propose to Clause 32(5) would reverse the consequence of excessive delay, addressing the inherent unfairness in the current drafting. This is aligned with how statutory time limits on mergers work, for example. If the CMA fails to make a decision within a specified timeline, the merger is automatically allowed. These are clarifying amendments; I very much hope that the Government will see benefit in improving the legislation by accepting them.
My Lords, I refer the Committee to my interests as detailed in the register. I support Amendments 187ZA and 187ZB, tabled by my noble friend Lord Moynihan, which propose a sensible and very necessary adjustment to the presumptions under- pinning the ownership test.
These amendments address an important issue in the Bill, ensuring that the ownership process is fair, reasonable and aligned with best practices in other regulated sectors. As my noble friend has said, as it stands, Clause 32(5) means that if the independent football regulator fails to determine an application for a new owner or officer within a set timeframe, the applicant will be automatically treated as unsuitable. This is a really problematic approach. It assumes that any delay is the fault of the applicant or reflective of their unsuitability when, in reality, delays can occur for many good reasons. Quite often, they are entirely outside the applicant’s control or, indeed, the control of the selling club.
Simple cases can, of course, be done quickly, but acquisitions of football clubs can be complex undertakings. Applications for ownership done well involve a detailed examination of financial records, governance structures and regulatory compliance. Imposing arbitrary deadlines does not speed things up; it just risks poor decisions being taken on very consequential issues without all the facts. Indeed, taking time to get it right is in the best interests of all involved: the club, the fans and the broader football ecosystem. To penalise an applicant simply because the IFR runs out of time is neither fair nor proportionate.
The Premier League allocates significant resources to operate its own owners’ and directors’ tests. I have spoken to it about this issue and, of course, so has DCMS. It has told me that the league sees no benefit whatever in arbitrary deadlines and has explicitly told the Government that unless this is staffed and resourced intensively, the IFR will almost definitely hit the deadline in a range of cases. Of course, this will be compounded by the fact that the Premier League will be running its own process without a statutory deadline, meaning the IFR would be ruling people to be unsuitable for no good reason while the league would still be performing its test. This is a recipe for chaos and, I am afraid to say, litigation.
This presumption of unfitness if a statutory deadline is not met could have significant unintended consequences. Let us imagine a scenario where a club is on the brink of critical ownership transfer—perhaps its survival depends on transferring the ownership—and the only prospective buyer is deemed unsuitable purely because the IFR failed to meet its deadline. In the last Committee debate, the Minister said:
“Although the risk of clubs going into administration will be greatly reduced, it may still happen”.—[Official Report, 16/12/24; col. 54.]
For a club to go into administration because the regulator has not met its deadline would be unfair, and catastrophic for its supporters. Even if it did not result in immediate administration, it could leave the club in limbo, unable to secure necessary investment and potentially sliding into financial difficulty or worse.
This issue is not confined to the immediate impact on clubs. There are also wider reputational and practical implications for prospective owners and officers. Being deemed “unsuitable” by default could carry consequences far beyond football, affecting their credibility and standing in other sectors. That is not how a fair and just regulatory process should operate.
The amendments before us propose a simple but important correction. By reversing the presumption, they would ensure that applicants were not unfairly penalised for delays that were outside their control. Instead, if the IFR fails to make a determination within the specified timeline, the applicant would be treated as suitable by default. As my noble friend Lord Moynihan said, that is much more aligned with practices in other regulated sectors. For example, in merger control, if the Competition and Markets Authority fails to make a decision within the statutory time limit, the merger is automatically allowed. That ensures that the time limits are meaningful but that regulatory delay does not create unnecessary barriers or unfair outcomes.
It is important to emphasise that this amendment does not undermine the integrity of the ownership test. The IFR will still be able to make a determination based on the suitability of the applicant, but it will no longer have the ability, in effect, to penalise applicants or clubs because of its own delays. It would, in truth, be far better not have a timeframe at all, for the reasons I have outlined. However, if there is to be one, we must reverse the presumption and place incentives in the right place.
I hope the Minister will recognise the value of these amendments, and the much greater fairness and reduced risk they would bring to the process. It is a small but crucial change that will help ensure the ownership process operates in way that is both reasonable and just. I urge the Government to give the amendments the consideration they warrant.
My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, and the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, in this matter. It cannot possibly be fair to have a regulatory system in which, if the regulator does not perform and reach a decision within the specified time, for reasons that are not the responsibility of the applicant, the application fails. That is plainly unjust and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, says, it is contradictory to the approach adopted in competition law, where the regulator has short time limits and must comply with them. The alternative is to have a more open-ended system, whereby the regulator can take more time if it is necessary to do so in exceptional circumstances.
My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Lords, Lord Markham and Lord Moynihan, for tabling these amendments. I will start with Amendment 180, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Markham. The regulator needs to know who a club’s prospective new owners and officers are before they can buy or join the club, so they can be tested.
Although clubs, owners and officers are required to pre-notify the regulator, there may be occasions where someone becomes an owner or officer of a club without having first notified the regulator. In these circumstances, it is vital that the regulator is notified after the event—precisely what this amendment would remove. That is because, if the regulator is not aware that someone has become an owner or officer, the regulator will not know to test them. This risks clubs having unsuitable owners or officers in place.
I turn now to Amendments 187ZA and 187ZB, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan. I will not deviate to talk about Leeds United at this point, although we always find reasons to do so in our general conversations. I am grateful for his comments and for those of the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. Clearly, I think we come down to the issue of timely decision-making on the suitability of new owners and officers, and we recognise that this is important for clubs’ financial sustainability.
It is a fact that, without deadlines, we have seen league determinations drag on, unable to reach a decision. That is why the regulator will be subject to a statutory deadline when it tests the suitability of prospective new owners and officers.
We believe that Amendment 187ZA would undermine the regulator’s tests. It would require the regulator to deem an owner or officer suitable to take up a position at a club if the deadline had been met, and the regulator had otherwise been unable to make a determination. This means that it would have to approve an applicant it did not know was suitable.
Amendment 187ZB would then allow that owner or officer to remain at the club until such point as the regulator found them unsuitable. This creates very concerning outcomes. If the end of the time limit resulted in an automatic pass, this could incentivise prospective applicants to stall and withhold information. More worryingly, as I set out, it would also mean that new entrants were approved even if the regulator was not confident that they were suitable—which is something that we simply cannot have.
This risks owners and officers who should never have been allowed to take up positions at clubs in the first place to potentially do considerable harm to clubs, which is why the statutory deadline must result in an automatic negative determination if reached, because this is the only way to ensure that suitable owners and officers become custodians. If the end of the time limit resulted in an automatic affirmative determination, this would incentivise prospective applicants to stall, as I have already outlined. It would also mean that new entrants would be approved if the regulator was not confident, and I hope that noble Lords will understand that this is not an acceptable position to be in. That is why—
Does the Minister accept that the current wording of the clause means that the application fails even if the delay is due entirely to the incompetence of the regulator or the failure of the regulator to have an efficient system for dealing with applications? Surely that cannot be right.
I understand the noble Lord’s comment but I really believe we are covering our tracks in this. We are improving the situation where the regulator works to avoid the situations that he outlined. I will add that this also provides certainty to the industry and, most importantly, it will incentivise the prospective person to promptly provide information to the regulator to allow it to make its determination. With those comments, I hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments.
I thank noble Lords for this debate and the Minister for her response. While my amendment was anoraky by nature, I think we would all agree that the other amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Moynihan are quite serious. As the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, mentioned, this is something that happens in all other regulatory environments, and other regulators manage to cater for that in exactly the same situation.
What my noble friend Lord Moynihan is suggesting is not, if the deadline has passed, that an owner is deemed suitable for ever. They will be deemed suitable only until the regulator is able to get round and opine. It would be a pretty silly thing to do for an owner to drag their feet and be awkward, for them to be allowed to do it only to be removed a few months later. That would be a big waste of money for them, and it would be completely illogical for an owner to try to game the system in that way.
So I am afraid that do not quite understand, and I think other noble Lords share in this. I ask the Minister to go back and think more on that, because it has got to be the right case. As the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, pointed out, in a situation where the regulator is not able to pass judgement through their own incompetence, it is the owner, who might be perfectly suitable, who loses out. So I would be grateful if we could consider that further—but at this point I am happy to withdraw.
My Lords, in moving Amendment 190 I will speak to my further amendments in this group, Amendments 191, 195 and 198. I will also speak to Amendment 204, which is in the name of my noble friend Lord Markham, to which I have added my name as well.
The amendments in this group focus on the criteria that the regulator will take into consideration when determining the suitability of a potential owner of a regulated club. My Amendment 190 is intended as a probing amendment, to tease out the reasonings behind the Government’s removal of what was Clause 37(2) in the previous version of the Bill. While the wording of this amendment is exactly the same as that of the subsection that was taken out when the present Government introduced their version, I want to be clear that I am not necessarily arguing that I want to see it reinserted. My intention here is to use this opportunity to understand why the Government took it out, and to ask the Minister a few questions for the sake of the Committee to elaborate on the Government’s position.
The Government have said that the previous requirement for the regulator to have regard to the foreign and trade policy objectives of the United Kingdom and its Government was one of the main concerns that UEFA had with the previous version of the Bill, and that removing the provision has pacified it. But has it fully pacified UEFA? We have not yet had sight of the letter from UEFA to the Secretary of State, which the Committee has heard about a number of times. My noble friend Lady Brady sent her own correspondence to the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, on 2 December, asking her to publish that letter and to place a copy in the Library so that the Committee can see it, but I do not believe my noble friend has yet received a response. It would be very helpful for the whole Committee to be able to see that letter, so we can be reassured about what exactly UEFA has said in that regard.
At present, it is not clear whether this provision was the only part of the previous Bill with which UEFA was not content or whether there are further parts of the Bill currently before us with which it is still unhappy. It would be useful to know how strong UEFA’s opposition was to the old provision on trade policy and so on. Did the Government remove it because UEFA threatened to exclude England from European competitions if, and only if, it remained in the Bill, or was UEFA’s opposition weaker and focused on other aspects of the Bill? I would be grateful if the Minister could elaborate on that for the Committee, and I hope that my noble friend Lady Brady will receive a response before Report.
My Amendment 191 would insert the word “relevant” to Clause 37(2)(c). This requires the regulator to consider whether a prospective owner or officer has been party to any civil proceedings in a court of law. The intent of including “relevant” here is to give a more precise wording, and indeed a bit of leeway. Our concern is that the current wording permits a wide range of court proceedings to be considered by the regulator—for example, divorce or child custody would surely be a civil proceeding. Making this simple change would focus the scope on civil proceedings which are directly related to somebody’s ability as an officer or owner of a regulated club.
I seek through Amendment 195 to prevent the regulator amending the considerations relevant to owner and officer determinations. This follows the theme that we have carried through this Committee of ensuring maximum clarity for clubs which are going to be regulated, and ensuring that the powers granted to the regulator by Parliament are not expanded in future. To allow that would be to grant the regulator a blank cheque to demand more and more requirements as it wishes.
The last amendment in my name in this group is Amendment 198, which would remove the provision stating that the regulator may not refuse ownership of a regulated club because of a prospective owner’s connection with the Government of a particular territory. I am sure we can all think of particular countries or territories at present which would indeed be grounds for immediate disqualification—this perhaps flows from the debate we had on group 2. For instance, at present, connection with the Government of the Russian Federation would surely be an open-and-shut case—would the Minister not agree? We want to ensure that the regulator is independent of our own Government, of course, but I do not see why the regulator should be prohibited in law from considering factors such as this in the determinations that it makes.
Amendment 204, in the name of my noble friend Lord Markham, prevents the regulator prohibiting multi-club ownership models. There are currently a large number of Premier League and English Football League clubs which are owned by individuals or consortia that own other clubs. There has been some controversy in this area, I gather, but we should be alive to the benefits of the model—one of which is a reduction in financial risk. It gives the ultimate owner of a club greater protection from one of their clubs being relegated or suffering a slump in revenue. Because there is a common owner, other clubs in the multi-club model can act as a buffer to absorb losses in one of the other clubs. There is, consequently, less risk of that owner facing difficulties and having to sell the club or, even worse, that club going into administration. Multi-club ownership models can absorb financial risk, thereby aiding the regulator to achieve the goals we want to see it achieve in regard to financial stability Surely the regulator should not prohibit this. I beg to move.
My Lords, I support Amendment 191, which seeks to add the word “relevant” to Clause 37(2)(c). This would be an important adjustment that would bring additional clarity and guidance to the IFR, as it develops its ownership test. The clause currently requires the independent football regulator to consider
“whether the individual is or has been a party to proceedings (other than criminal proceedings) in any court or tribunal”.
This is a strikingly broad provision. It would allow any civil proceedings, regardless of their nature or relevance, to count against someone in an ownership determination; it may even be that the individual in question seeking ownership has brought the civil action or tribunal that, as a result, is likely to disqualify them from owning a football club. It is a very concerning approach. Amendment 191 would provide a much-needed safeguard against unintended and disproportionate outcomes.
Let me take this opportunity to ask the Minister again the question I asked earlier in Committee—it is quite a fundamental question. Is the ownership test provided for in this Bill going to be subjective or objective? That was not made clear by the Minister when I asked the question before, so I would really like clarity—surely it cannot be both. Without this clarity, we risk creating an ownership framework that is open to arbitrary and inconsistent application, which would undermine investor confidence and, ultimately, the credibility of the regulator.
This concern is particularly acute when we consider the clause as it stands. Most successful businesspeople who have lived rich and varied commercial lives will have been involved in civil proceedings at some point, somewhere in the world. These could range from contractual disputes to regulatory disagreements or employment tribunals, and very often instances where they were not at fault whatever but had to defend their interests or bring such cases themselves. Are we seriously suggesting that such proceedings should disqualify them from passing an ownership test?
This is not a hypothetical concern. Civil proceedings can be entirely routine and, in many industries, reflect the complexity of modern business rather than any moral or professional failing. The absence of the word “relevant” means that such cases could be treated as a disqualifying factor, even when they have no bearing whatever on the individual's ability to responsibly own or direct a football club. This is not aligned with practice in any other regulatory sectors and will create an entirely unnecessary barrier to investment.
Clarity on the scope and purpose of the ownership test is essential for not just the regulator but the entire football ecosystem, including investors, leagues and clubs. Noble Lords have already highlighted serious issues with the current drafting, not least the lack of definition of “significant influence”. On the very unclear situation of Newcastle United, the Minister confirmed that the Crown Prince would be subject to the owners’ test, and the issue of significant influence would mean that this is the case. At least that situation was clarified and he knows where he stands.
Amendment 191 provides an opportunity to address at least one aspect of this mixture of problems by narrowing the scope of Clause 37(2) to focus only on what is genuinely relevant. This small change would provide greater clarity, fairness and confidence for all stakeholders in football. I encourage the Minister to reflect on this issue and the broader issues around this element of the Bill. As we move towards Report, it would be helpful to hear how the Government intend to address the now quite numerous concerns about the scope and application of the ownership test in the Bill.
My Lords, I will say a few words about one of the amendments, but first want to follow up on what the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, was saying about multi-club ownership. He was suggesting that multi-club ownership could alleviate risk. I see the point that he was making, but we have to be clear that it can also generate risk. This is an ongoing conversation that many people in football are having. We have to consider its prevalence and the fact that it is increasing, but there are questions about how it could distort competition and lead to complications with loan deals or the sale of players. This is a big question that will loom over us in the future. It is not just a one-way issue, as perhaps the noble Lord was suggesting.
I want to say a couple of words about Amendment 201. Clause 37 says very clearly that in determining whether it considers that an individual has the requisite honesty et cetera, the regulator should have regard to whether the individual has been convicted of a serious criminal offence. Amendment 201, in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Bassam, goes somewhat further and says:
“No individual with an unspent serious criminal conviction, whether or not in England and Wales, shall be permitted to own a controlling stake in, or serve as a director for, any regulated club”.
That is a clear statement of intent about the serious nature of some of the issues that have arisen about specific clubs in recent times. I ask the Minister to tighten up on this, take the prospect of owners with serious convictions very seriously and say that it should be a bar to ownership and not simply something that has to be taken into account.
My Lords, I too will speak to Amendment 204 on multi-club ownership, as the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, has made some important points and it would be helpful for the Committee to understand the position of the Government. It can alleviate risk. It is also highly complex and can make it very difficult, in terms of due diligence, for the regulator to look at an English club under this legislation without taking into account the financial exposure that a multi-club owner could have in another country with other clubs.
This is a growing trend; it is not new. A significant number of Premier League clubs and six EFL Championship clubs form part of a wider multi-club model, a structure first explored exclusively in Europe by ENIC, now the majority shareholder of Tottenham Hotspur. The rationale underpinning multi-club ownership aspirations, which underlines just how complex the situation can be, ranges from player recruitment and development efficiencies to knowledge sharing, resource synergies and brand penetration.
Furthermore, accruing interest in clubs that compete in the continent’s top leagues—those that hold higher bands and therefore score more points in the governing body endorsement system—is seen as a means for Premier League and EFL clubs to access a more eligible foreign pool of players. Having interests in multiple clubs is not a phenomenon unique to the UK; it pervades the European game. UEFA reports that clubs with cross-ownership relations account for more than a third of the top division in each of Belgium, France and Italy, in addition to England. Integrity of competition, reconciling the model with football’s rulebook, has become a complex issue for UEFA. At the centre of sport is competition, so if the same person, either a natural or a legally based entity, was to have control or influence over two rivals, there would be a risk to the integrity of competition whenever those rivals competed.
To mitigate that risk, football’s governing bodies have introduced rules to preserve the independence and integrity of competition between its clubs. At a domestic level, approximately two-thirds of European national football associations have rules directly limiting or restricting multi-club ownership. The famous article 5 of the regulations of the UEFA Champions League, on the integrity of the UEFA club competitions, stems from the governing body’s concern, which started back in the late 1990s. Article 5 regulates common ownership by prohibiting the same individual or legal entity having control or influence over more than one club playing in the same UEFA club competition. That notably includes the ability to exercise, by any means, a decisive influence on the decision-making of the club concerned.
With that brief explanation on top of the important points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, I would be very grateful if the Minister could confirm that she is completely comfortable with article 5 and will instruct the regulators not to impose any conflicting regulations in this area.
My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, Lord Addington, Lord Markham and Lord McNally, who I am sorry to hear is not available today, and particularly my noble friend Lady Taylor of Bolton, for the amendments in this group.
Starting with Amendment 190 from the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, I do not agree that the foreign and trade policy objectives of the Government have any bearing on suitability. Suitability should be based purely on an impartial assessment of the individual’s fitness, whether they have a source of wealth connected to serious criminal conduct, and their financial plans and resources.
I am sorry to intervene so early, but the noble Baroness has said something quite stark. The policy of the United Kingdom is very clear in relation to the Russian Federation at the moment. Roman Abramovich was sanctioned because of the UK’s very clear position and the ownership of Chelsea was changed for a brief period. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport owned it on behalf of the nation and oversaw the sale. I understand the Government’s stated reasons for taking this out of the Bill, but should the regulator not be able to take into account the foreign policy issues of the day on something as important as this?
The noble Lord has pre-empted the further comments that I was going on to make. I can address this here. Clearly, in the example that is given regarding Russia, anyone connected to a state that is subject to sanctions would not pass the test. That is a straightforward way of picking up some of the concerns that he has raised.
The intention with all this is to ensure that the test can be applied consistently and remain fair, transparent, robust and focused on whether an individual is suitable to own a football club. Furthermore, the Government have been clear that the independence of the regulator is vital. That is the point I want to stress here and that is why the Government have removed the requirement for the regulator to have regard to His Majesty’s Government’s foreign and trade policy objectives when assessing an owner’s suitability, which is the precise requirement this amendment seeks to include.
Turning to Amendment 191, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, and assure him that the intent of his amendment is already achieved in the Bill as drafted. The Bill sets out a number of matters the regulator must take into account when considering an owner or officer’s fitness as part of the owners’ and directors’ test. One of these is whether the owner or officer has been party to civil proceedings. As with all public bodies, the regulator must take into account all relevant matters and must disregard irrelevant matters when it comes to making decisions. That means that the things listed in Clause 37(2) will affect the regulator’s decision only if they are relevant in a specific case. That picks up on the issue of relevance.
In other words, the regulator must treat these things as potentially relevant to its decision, but it must consider the specific facts and context in every case. The noble Baroness, Lady Brady, also picked up on the issue of relevance. For example, the regulator will not be concerned with whether an owner or officer has contested a speeding ticket. However, it will be concerned if a civil court has found that an owner or officer has acted in a seriously dishonest way or if they have a track record of civil cases that cast significant doubt on their integrity. The test is designed to allow the regulator to make a holistic evidence-based assessment of suitability, taking the context into account, as I have mentioned previously.
I turn to Amendment 192, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Addington, and Amendment 201 in the name of my noble friend Lady Taylor of Bolton. On the latter, I completely agree that an unspent serious criminal conviction is likely to affect whether an individual is suitable to be a club’s custodian. That is why the regulator is already required to take any criminal convictions into account when assessing an owner or officer’s suitability —it does not have a choice: it has to. I reassure my noble friend that we take her comments seriously and are grateful for the way in which she expressed them today.
The Bill does not set out exhaustive details on every element of the fitness test as to what constitutes a pass or fail. Instead, it allows the regulator to make a holistic assessment, which, crucially, is able to take into account any context and relevance. We believe this approach is key. If someone’s criminal history makes them unsuitable, the regulator can fail them on that basis. By comparison, the binary nature of the league’s current tests leads to a less sophisticated assessment of suitability. That is why this test takes a different approach. I reassure noble Lords that the Bill as drafted already requires the regulator to consider any unspent serious criminal convictions, and we fully expect the regulator to treat these as very significant factors in its assessment.
I turn now to Amendments 195 and 198 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson—
Can the Minister help me? She said she would comment on the amendments. What are her comments on Amendment 192, tabled by my noble friend Lord Addington, which would require the Bill’s propriety test to include equality, diversity and inclusion? We had a long and wide-ranging discussion on that the other night, and the Government made it clear that they supported including equality, diversity and inclusion in the Bill. I would like some clarity. The propriety test seems fixated on criminal charges and litigation.
I am sorry that we have not had a fuller discussion on that, but I thank the noble Lord, Lord Addington, for his amendment and I agree that equality, diversity and inclusion are significant factors which the regulator has a duty to highlight. Equality, diversity and inclusion are not named criteria in the fitness test, and I do not believe they should be. If an individual has behaved in a seriously discriminatory and harmful way that rises to the level of a criminal offence, and which results in a civil lawsuit or regulatory or disciplinary action, the existing test will capture this. We believe that this is the appropriate threshold. It would not be proportionate to require the regulator to assess individuals’ commitment to equality, diversity and inclusion.
I will return to the point the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, made regarding a blank cheque, and pick up on his Amendments 195 and 198. The Bill sets out a list of matters the regulator must consider when assessing an owner or officer’s honesty and integrity as part of the fitness test. Those are the relevant matters when assessing an individual’s honesty and integrity, and they are based heavily on precedent—namely, the Financial Conduct Authority’s fit and proper person test. However, as we have discussed before, football is a changing industry and the regulator must be able to adapt to this. Matters may emerge in the future that are crucial to assessing an individual’s fitness.
The purpose of the owners’ and directors’ test is to ensure that clubs have suitable custodians. That is why it is vital that the regulator be able to consider other matters. This sort of discretion is well precedented; indeed, the FCA has more discretion when conducting its fit and proper tests. However, we want to make it explicitly clear that it would not be appropriate for the regulator to add any matters which would allow it to determine an individual’s suitability solely based on their connection with a Government. That should not be what determines whether an individual is suitable or not.
Turning to Amendment 204 from the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, nothing in the Bill prohibits an owner owning more than one club. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, for his comments on this issue. Concerns about multi-club ownership are to do with conflicts of interest and competition, which is why the leagues and UEFA have rules about multi-club ownership. Clubs competing in these competitions will be required to abide by any applicable rules.
Turning finally to Amendment 202, from the noble Lord, Lord McNally, I agree that it is crucial that clubs be protected from unsuitable officers, which is why the Bill gives the regulator the powers to disqualify any unsuitable officer from being an officer at any regulated club, up to and including for life. That, I am sure noble Lords will agree, is a very strong tool that has powerful ramifications. It means that all clubs will be better protected from unsuitable officers, but it should be used carefully.
There are scenarios where the regulator must find an officer unsuitable—for example, if an officer lacks the requisite qualification, experience or training to take up that specific officer role at the club—but it should not automatically follow that they are deemed unsuitable for any officer role at the club. Indeed, there may be other officer roles that they are suitable and qualified for, but this amendment would ban that. It would mean that the regulator would have to disqualify them from being an officer anywhere. This we cannot and should not accept. That is why it is important that the regulator has the power to disqualify unsuitable officers but is not always required to do so. For the reasons I have set out, I hope the noble Lord will be able to withdraw his amendment.
Could the noble Baroness say something about the UEFA letter which expresses its views on the Bill? Will she assure the Committee that a copy of this letter will speedily be sent to the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, and a copy put in the Library so that we know what it says?
My understanding is that we will not be sending it, but I am sure there will be further clarification on this point.
Can I ask why? This is a letter from the sports regulatory body that governs European football. Surely the Committee is entitled to know what its views are on the substance of the Bill we are debating.
We have already covered this point. We are talking about a private letter to the Government. That is my understanding of the situation. I do not feel qualified to comment further at this stage.
It is a private letter that has convinced the Government to change the Bill in the way that we are debating here, so I hope the noble Baroness will take that away and hear the repeated request from the Committee to see this letter. It has persuaded them to take out the provision that I am probing with my Amendment 190 and every time we return to this matter, the Committee gets a bit more confused about why the Government have done it and what may or may not be in that letter. I appreciate what she says but I would be grateful if she could let us see it.
I apologise for intervening so early. What the noble Baroness said subsequently was very helpful. Also, the example I gave was not a helpful one because Roman Abramovich was sanctioned and if a person becomes sanctioned, as the noble Baroness went on to say, that individual would indeed be covered. To give her another, necessarily hypothetical example, if an unsanctioned citizen of the Russian Federation, connected to the Russian Government and supportive of their illegal war in Ukraine, wished to become an owner of a football club in this country, the combination of taking out this provision about allowing the regulator to have regard to the foreign policy objectives of the Government of the United Kingdom and the refusal to accept my Amendment 198, which covers links to foreign Governments, means that the regulator would not be able to prevent that person—a Russian citizen connected to the Government of the Russian Federation—becoming an owner of a club? Does she not think that is an unfortunate consequence of the changes the Government have made to the Bill because of this UEFA letter which we have not seen?
With regard to the UEFA letter, I refer noble Lords back to the comments that my noble friend Lady Twycross made previously. To clarify, we did not in fact say that the letter was the reason for changing the Bill; we said that UEFA’s views more generally were the reason for change. With that, I think I can leave that there. I also want to make the point again that anyone subject to sanctions would not pass the test.
But somebody who is not subject to sanctions but who is connected to a Government whom the UK is in dispute with would not be covered because of the removal of this provision from the Bill. I am happy if the noble Baroness wants to write on this, but this is an important matter because this is a change to the Bill. I understand the Government’s stated reasons for changing it—we do not want to see football teams in this country unable to take part in international tournaments and we want to make sure that the regulator is independent of government—but I worry that by making the change in the way that we have and by not adding in the additional safeguard such as the one I am proposing through my Amendment 198, we open ourselves to a situation where somebody connected with a foreign Government cannot be taken into account by the regulator. If she is happy to commit to write on that, we would be grateful.
We have gone through this several times. If there could at least be some private way in which those people involved in this could see this letter, it would be of assistance, because this is becoming a hardy perennial that is getting in the way of progress.
I think everybody is thinking about the previous examples we have been given, but would not the example that the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, just gave us of the non-sanctioned Russian individual be covered by the other considerations and the holistic attitude that my noble friend the Minister was telling us was the basis of the approach of the regulator?
I thank my noble friend for her helpful comments. I am not able to comment further at this moment. I think the detail is probably beyond this discussion and I recognise the comments about going round and over things again.
I am grateful to the noble Baroness but it would be helpful if we could have something in writing on this. As I say, I gave a poor example in the case of Roman Abramovich, but the hypothetical example is one that I would be grateful for an answer to. That would be appreciated. But I am grateful to her for what she said and the reassurances she gave on some of the other amendments that I have tabled in this group on civil offences and so on. I take on board the points that the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, raised about multi-club ownership. I recognise that this is a live and lively debate in the sport. What we were trying to test with Amendment 204 was that the regulator should not be restricted on that basis alone. But with gratitude to the noble Baroness and eagerly awaiting the letter that will follow, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
My Lords, I will speak only briefly to Amendment 206 as it is quite simple. It seeks to prevent clubs which are relegated to a competition which is not regulated by the new independent football regulator being subject to the prohibitions of Clause 45.
Currently, any club that is relegated will have to continue to abide by these rules for a period of 10 years. Clause 45 has a similar provision applying the rules in that clause to relegated clubs for five years. It seems unfair that a club that is relegated to a league or competition below the scope of the new regulatory regime should have to abide by the rules set out in the Bill for such a long period. Surely a fairer approach would be either to shorten the period or, as my amendment suggests, to remove it altogether.
Clubs that no longer operate a team in a regulated league will, by virtue of their relegation, receive lower incomes and potentially lose players. The financial situation they face will not be commensurate with the duties placed on them by the Bill, and retaining these long time periods seems to render the principle of specifying competitions, as the Bill does elsewhere, less meaningful. Why specify certain competitions if clubs playing in leagues that are not specified would still be subject to duties in the Bill? I beg to move.
My Lords, we need an answer about why these things are carried on for so long, because there are administrative burdens. If we want these clubs to survive and come back, we could probably make a case for two things. One would be an intermediate regulator, which I do not think would be terribly popular with certain sections of this Committee, and the other is deciding when you can come out of this, because there are duties that are probably an appropriate burden for a professional structure. A good few clubs have gone in and out of this structure, but there is a certain level at which you are not receiving income, you are not receiving support and you have become a part-time asset to the community. Surely there is some point at which there is a cut-off. A better definition of the Government’s thinking on this might be helpful.
My Lords, I just want to say a word about Amendment 207. It talks about a club that is not a regulated club but bears a very similar resemblance to one that is in things such as the name, the shirt colours and things of that type—almost an imitation of another club in order to get some support, finance or whatever. It may seem that this is highly unlikely, but I have a nightmare scenario where the super leagues that are being proposed do not take off, and therefore people try to create an artificial super league by, for example, having a team called “Manchester Blues” or “Liverpool Reds” getting into competitions with clubs abroad as an imitation of the super league that has been proposed and rejected. I want some assurance that should that nightmare scenario come about, there is some provision for being strict about what can and cannot happen.
My Lords, before I speak to this group, I want to be clear about who the regulator will test and clarify an earlier point I made. I will ensure that all noble Lords who participated in the second group have their attention drawn to this clarification and apologise if I caused any confusion.
Schedule 1 to the Bill sets out details on who meets the definition of an owner. The Secretary of State will also set out guidance on one of the criteria for ownership, “significant influence or control”. An incumbent individual simply meeting the definition, including if they exert significant influence or control, does not mean that the regulator is required or obliged to test them. It may test an incumbent owner if there are grounds for concern about their suitability. The criteria for suitability are clearly set out in the Bill. This applies to any type of owner, be it a state owner or otherwise.
The key point I must stress—it goes for Newcastle United or any other club, although as someone who lived for a number of years in Newcastle I am particularly keen to reassure Geordies—is that the regulator will be operationally independent of government. It is not for the Government to prejudge the regulator’s assessment of who meets the definition of owner, whether there is concern about a particular owner or the outcome if the regulator tests a particular owner.
Finally, I want to reassure your Lordships’ Committee that this Government are unashamedly pro-investment, which will drive our growth mission. We want good, long-term investors into the UK, and foreign investment is key to this. I hope that noble Lords find this clarification helpful.
I thank the Minister for that. I think it is self-evident from her comments that once you remove the foreign and trade policy objective and put in place the significant influence test, you have a massive problem in the Bill. That massive problem is that it is self-evident, as has been discussed many times during the proceedings, that the Crown Prince—as chair of and in control of the PIF, with significant influence over it—would automatically come within the scope of significant influence as defined so far in debate on a number of occasions. I have no problem with that, and I do not think that the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, has any problem with that. If that is the case, so be it, and let us be honest about it. If it is not the case, “significant influence” is meaningless, and we should come back to it on Report and simply delete “significant influence”, which, incidentally, goes far further than any other regulator in Europe.
We have control tests that are applied by UEFA, by the Premier League and across football. We do not have this significant influence test, and that is what is causing the problem. You remove the foreign and trade policy objectives and apply a significant influence test. The Minister was very clear in response to me on Monday that the Crown Prince would be absolutely full and central in any clear interpretation of that test. For the first time, she has put the definition of significant influence into the long grass as she said that it would come back in secondary legislation, that the Government do not actually know what it means and that she cannot give an answer to that in Committee or when we return on Report. But it is critical, because it comes to the very hub of political influence: what is the status of the Crown Prince? What is the status of Abu Dhabi? What would be the status of the Qataris if they wanted to buy a club in the Premier League, or indeed in any other league? My recommendation is that, given the uncertainty in the response that the Minister has just given and the absolute clarity on Monday evening and earlier this afternoon on the yes/no answer, we leave it for the time being and return on Report and analyse this in depth.
I felt I was clear, but I accept that the noble Lord has a different view. I look forward to ongoing discussions with him before and on Report. My comments related to a previous group, so I apologise to noble Lords who were not there to hear the context of my comments.
I will now move on to my remarks on this group, which—
I shall just say this, as it is so central to our proceedings this evening. Just for the record, on Monday evening the Minister said:
“Finally, on the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, the whole point of the owners’ and directors’ test, which has been carefully designed, is to ensure that club custodians are suitable for assessing an owner’s fitness—this is absolutely crucial. It is right that any owner passes the tests set out in the Bill, so it would not be fair, appropriate or responsible to exempt certain types of owners from testing … This amendment intends that owners with diplomatic status or who are Heads of State, Government Ministers or high-ranking officials of foreign Governments would not be tested”.
That was in response to my probing amendment. She went on:
“I do not need to tell noble Lords about some of the people this could exempt from testing. That means that the regulator could not consider any personal finances or criminal history, no matter how egregious. Instead, it would have to ignore these matters, so the regulator could be letting unsuitable owners in”.—[Official Report, 16/12/24; col. 140.]
In other words, all those people I have just mentioned are subject to the tests set out in the Bill, and that would include anybody who was chair of a sovereign wealth fund that had invested in football in this country. That is what we will return to on Report. I do not think it is appropriate to lengthen the discussion this evening, as it has been well aired, but it is fundamental to removing that clause from the legislation in terms of opening up a can of worms now for the Government in identifying exactly what the suitable ownership test means.
Like other noble Lords, I want to move on, but I shall repeat two sentences that I referred to earlier. Simply because an incumbent individual meets the definition, including if they exert significant influence or control, does not mean that the regulator is required to test them. It may test an incumbent owner if there are grounds for concern about their suitability. Now I think we should move on. I do not feel that is a can of worms, but I appreciate that the noble Lord has an alternative view.
Moving to the group under discussion, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, and my noble friend Lady Taylor of Bolton for speaking to the amendments. On Amendment 206, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, the aim of the clause, as he knows, is to stop the possibility of clubs leaving to join a closed-shop breakaway competition, as several clubs attempted with the European Super League in 2021. While I appreciate the aim of the noble Lord’s amendment, the clause has been carefully drafted to ensure that there is no possibility of circumvention. That is why the duty also captures formerly regulated clubs, so an owner cannot remove a club from the specified competitions in favour of joining a new break- away competition.
It is unlikely that clubs in the sixth tier of English football or beyond will attempt to join a prohibited competition, so we do not think the risk that the amendment aims to cater for is a material one. What is more, if these clubs sought to join a competition that had been prohibited by the regulator, that would undermine the heritage and history of the club and should also be condemned—so it is no bad thing that the duty would capture them as well.
On Amendment 207, in the name of my noble friend Lord Bassam of Brighton, which my noble friend Lady Taylor spoke to, I acknowledge the intent to protect the clause from any risk of circumvention. However, we do not believe it is necessary to extend the scope of the clause to the new clubs or entities that are created to take on the identity and players of a formerly regulated club in order to participate in prohibited competitions. We believe this is a remote risk. Even if a club could convince its players to do this, convince its fan base to follow them and work through the legalities, the FA’s existing requirements around the registration of clubs and players would offer sufficient protection. For the reasons I have set out, I hope noble Lords will not press their amendments.
I am grateful to the Minister for her answers to the amendments in this group and for the clarification she gave on the comments on a previous group. I take what she says about breakaway clubs, but the point is for how long the provisions will still apply to clubs that drop out below the bottom level of this regulation through relegation, and why it lasts for so long. She has spoken before, rightly, about making sure that this is a proportionate regime. If you are a club that has been relegated to such a low tier and are unlikely to come back in, it feels like a very long time to have to continue to comply. That is the point that I was probing there. I might take that away and think about it further. If she has anything further to add on reflection, I would be very happy to receive that in a letter or pick it up in the discussions that we will have between now and Report—but that was part of the thinking there.
The noble Lord, Lord Addington, is right: the suggestion of another or an intermediate regulator would not be popular in all parts of this Committee, so I will let that issue rest.
My noble friend Lord Moynihan’s suggestion on the question of influence and foreign ownership is one that is perhaps better for us to talk about in our discussions between Committee and Report. I cannot be the only Geordie who is a bit confused and concerned about the implications for Newcastle United and I look forward to speaking to the Minister about that. But, for now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
My Lords, Amendment 219 relates to Clause 46 and the question of the disposal of home grounds, and the kinds of approvals that are going to be required. I have just three points to make. First, are the words “home ground” sufficient? We suggest that we should say “specified properties”. This relates very much to what I was saying the other night about assets of community value. I said that when my own club, Bolton Wanderers, made its ground an asset of community value, it covered not just the ground itself, the pitch and the stands but the concourse. We have to talk about whether it should cover a training ground and even advertising hoardings, car parks and the fan zone. If we simply say “home ground”, will that cover an item such as a fan zone? That is why the amendment I have tabled suggests that we should have specified properties. They may be different in the case of different clubs, but a home ground is more than just what is on the pitch or even within the boundaries of the stadium. That is something that I hope the Minister will consider.
My second point is that this should relate to the assets of a club being used as security for a loan by the owner. There is clearly potential danger there if the loan is called in but the owner does not have the wherewithal to cough up the money that he has borrowed. Could that situation jeopardise the heritage of a club if it is vulnerable because it has been given as security? That is a valid consideration.
The third point is the need to make sure that fans are fully consulted and engaged in any discussion about the disposal of the specified properties. Often, when we are talking about which properties might be involved, it is the fans themselves, especially if there is a fan zone, who have a clear vested interest. We have talked on the Bill about moving five miles. In any circumstances, the fans have to be involved and, therefore, I hope the Government will consider the amendments that we have tabled.
I support the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, because I have walked this tightrope. When I was leader of Stockport Council, we had to financially advise and support Stockport County on several occasions. In the end, in 2013, we acquired the freehold and leased it back to the new owner of Stockport County, Mark Stott, for 250 years. That enabled him to get investment in and get the football club moving back into the league and climbing the divisions. That is where we start from: the position of the club and its value as a loan against something.
If we can get local authorities and other people to get hold of the freeholds, that will save Toys-R-Us from being built on certain football grounds on the south coast and give the clubs real opportunities to move forward. So we should support the amendments. We should also probably be thinking about how we can strengthen that in future. There is more involvement in the community value and the asset to a town and area of a football club, so we could be a bit more imaginative about how we protect that, rather than just arguing over how we should cover a loan against the ground.
My Lords, I will say a few quick words about my amendment in this group. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, and other noble Lords for their amendments in this group. My Amendment 236 would introduce a new duty encouraging clubs to consult the Office for Place before making any decisions regarding their home ground or the construction of a new one.
I know that the Government have proposed to wind up the Office for Place, but I wanted to draw attention to its work, and in particular the excellent work of its interim chairman, Nicholas Boys Smith, and the board and staff who were working in Stoke-on-Trent. I think a lot of us share the disappointment, because we saw the Housing Minister after the election tell the BBC that the Office for Place would be kept. But, following the Budget, I understand that the Government are proposing not to keep it. I did think it could play an important role here, as it has in so many other areas of public policy.
My amendment offers a clear benefit in terms of promoting meaningful engagement and ensuring that football clubs consider the broader social and cultural impacts of their decisions. That is a theme that noble Lords touched on when introducing their amendments in this group. I think we all want to see clubs take a more holistic and responsible approach when planning changes to their home grounds, helping to preserve the heritage of these much-loved sites while ensuring that development is in the best interests of both the club and the community in which it is rooted.
In light of the need for more thoughtful and inclusive decision-making, my amendment tries to strike the right balance between promoting consultation with an expert body, fostering collaboration and ensuring that long-term planning for home grounds is done responsibly. I appreciate the points that noble Lords raised in their amendments and look forward to the noble Baroness’s response to them all.
My Lords, I rise briefly to support the amendments from the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton. They sound very reasonable to me. We need to avoid the situation of groundless clubs. Coventry City come to mind. They had some very awkward years and some equally awkward ground sharing. We want to avoid groundless clubs and ground-sharing clubs. Avoiding stadiums being used as security for loans taken out by owners is incredibly helpful. I very much hope that the Minister will support that.
I also support the amendment from my noble friend Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay. I declare that I am a member of Historic Houses and tend to bang the drum a little about heritage and aesthetics. To give a personal example, my local team are Shrewsbury Town. They had this amazing stadium, Gay Meadow, on the banks of the River Severn. They had a chap or chapette in a coracle who would go out into the river when the ball was kicked into it. Like many other clubs during the 1990s and 2000s, they moved to a sort of identikit shopping centre stadium. I guess it has some practical advantages, but it is pretty soulless and is like so many other stadiums. So I hope the Government can listen and take this into account. We have some amazing stadiums in this country. If we are going to get a club to move, let us move them to a better home, not a worse one.
My Lords, I would like to say a few words in support of my noble friends Lady Taylor and Lord Bassam, some of whose amendments I have signed. I also want to pick up on the point that the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, has just made. He mentioned Coventry, who moved to Northampton, which is about 35 miles away and obviously not at all convenient for fans. My noble friend Lord Bassam’s club, Brighton, moved to Gillingham, which is, what, 70 miles away?
Some 72 miles and a few chains, I am sure.
Even a club such as Bristol Rovers, who were obliged to move to Bath, which is only about 15 miles away, had to play there for 10 years until their new stadium was built—and even then, I think they ended up sharing with a rugby club.
Amendments 227 and 233 are really “the AFC Wimbledon amendments”, because they refer to that club in which I have an interest, which I have stated on a number of occasions in consideration of this Bill. On the figure of five miles, it may not surprise noble Lords to know that, when Wimbledon FC were obliged to move because their ground had been sold from underneath them, they went to Crystal Palace, which is about six and a half miles away. It still was not convenient for a lot of the fans.
It has been said that, when Wimbledon moved to Crystal Palace, the crowds increased. Factually, that is correct—and I see the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, nodding—but they increased because there was a far greater ability for visiting fans to go to Crystal Palace. It was not at all unusual for Wimbledon FC to play home games where their own fans were very much in the minority. So that was not a benefit—okay, in financial terms for the club it was, but it is not a system that anybody would advocate.
My final point is to reinforce Amendment 234, about taking reasonable steps to ensure that the club’s fans do not consider arrangements for any change to be unsatisfactory. That should be a very basic consideration. I think it is in the Bill, but it is helpful to have that stated quite clearly and I hope that my noble friend will take that on board and, if she is not able to accept it today, which I would not expect, that we might come back to this to get something more solid on Report.
I thank my noble friends Lord Bassam of Brighton and Lady Taylor of Bolton and the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, for tabling these amendments regarding home grounds. The noble Lords, Lord Harlech and Lord Goddard, gave powerful examples of why home grounds matter and what they mean to fans, as did my noble friend Lord Watson of Invergowrie, particularly in relation to relocation. As somebody who grew up within hearing distance of Oxford United’s Manor Ground, I can empathise with the feelings of fans when grounds move —although inevitably they do sometimes, and often successfully.
I will talk first to Amendments 219 to 223, 227 to 230 and 233 and 234 in the names of my noble friends Lord Bassam of Brighton and Lady Taylor of Bolton. Starting with Amendments 219 to 222 and Amendment 230, home grounds are clearly often the most important asset of a club and that is why this legislation has carved out specific protections to safeguard against risky financial decisions or sales of the ground. This does not mean that other assets such as training grounds or office space are not also important to the club, but there is a specific consideration necessary for the home ground. I reassure my noble friends that there are protections in the Bill to safeguard against owners stripping a club of its assets or making reckless mortgage decisions against clubs. They include the enhanced owners’ and directors’ test, which will look to ensure that owners are prepared to be appropriate custodians of their club and its assets.
The regulator will also have oversight of the financial plans and balance sheets of the regulated clubs, ensuring that the club is not putting itself in a risky position unnecessarily. We would expect that this would include what assets remain in the club’s ownership and any plans to dispose of them. If it were to become evident that an owner was looking to asset strip the club or deliberately worsen its financial position, the licensing regime gives the regulator power to place licensing conditions on the club. The regulator could also take enforcement action if those conditions are breached or if the financial plan that the club has submitted has not been followed.
I turn to Amendment 227. I will not repeat the same points made previously as they are both similar to other amendments in this group. However, on the second sub-paragraph proposed by this amendment, with changes to the ownership or use of the home ground as collateral, the potential adverse outcomes are entirely financial. They do not impact the heritage of the club, nor would they necessarily relate to a relocation. If there is reasonable prospect of a change leading to relocation, Clause 48 sets out the parameters for any home ground relocation. The regulator would need to be satisfied that the move does not undermine the financial sustainability of the club or significantly harm the heritage of the club. This means that the regulator will be able to look at things such as location.
However, the Government have deliberately not set a fixed distance or considerations. This is to further allow for a bespoke approach to be taken at all clubs to make sure that the impact of a relocation can be mitigated if one is deemed necessary. Amendment 223 seeks to expand the scope of the duty to gain the regulator’s approval to include all substantial changes to specify properties or the club’s home ground. Given the addition of the specified properties, this amendment could include any significant changes to property, such as a hotel owned by the club. This is a significant expansion of scope and could be onerous and resource intensive on the regulator. In such a case as a hotel, the amendment could feasibly lead to a full consultation and approval process for substantial changes such as building an extension. This would not be an appropriate or efficient use of the regulator’s time or resources.
Instead, such substantial changes to either the home ground or other assets can be addressed via other areas in the Bill. For example, we expect all clubs to consult and have regard to the views of fans on the specified relevant matters. This includes home grounds and business priorities, among other issues. We would also expect any substantial changes to the home ground or other assets to be captured by the club’s financial plans. The regulator will therefore be able to have oversight and react to any concerns.
My Lords, I have listened very carefully to what the Minister said. I am very grateful to her for saying that she will consider some aspects further, because I think there is an issue here, especially in how we define a home ground. We may want to return to this at a later stage. In the meantime, it proves why every club should have its grounds designated as an asset of community value; we then would have the protection that we are seeking in this amendment. I am grateful to the Minister for what she has said and for saying she will consider parts of this again. On that basis, I am happy to beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
My Lords, I will be brief, partly because dinner is fast approaching and partly because this is an amendment to probe the Minister’s response to a good existing clause, Clause 48. This clause is about preventing home matches being relocated. The amendment is to probe whether the provision is sufficient to meet widespread fan concerns about possible exceptions.
There is increasing discussion about domestic football games being moved overseas. We have seen statements from the chairman of my own team, Liverpool, and broadcasters such as NBC are talking about relocating Premier League games abroad. The FIFA working group is reviewing its policies to allow this. There are all sorts of stories, rumours and plans afoot to possibly allow Latin American domestic games to be played in the United States. There is historical evidence showing that the Premier League once proposed an additional 39th game to the season, which would not be played at the ground of a Premier League club. We also see countries such as Saudia Arabia that have intervened—let us put it that way—in sports properties, buying them and moving them around, for golf and boxing. There is reason to think that this is not a very remote possibility.
The Bill sets out to prevent clubs relocating matches away from home stadia without the approval of the regulator. I hope that enjoys widespread support; it is welcome and important. The point of my amendment is to probe the idea that the clause is not quite as watertight as it should be. The concern is that the current wording is based on the relocation of matches which are already designated as home matches. What happens if the competition organiser allocates games directly, before the season’s fixtures are issued, to Riyadh, Los Angeles, Singapore, Paris or wherever? They could claim that no home game is being relocated and say, for example, that weeks 10 and 20 are weeks in which games are played elsewhere. What if the 39th game proposal, so widely reviled by fans, is revived? That is not about the relocation of a home game; it is an extra game.
The new clause addresses this by placing a requirement on the regulated competition organisers to seek approval from the regulator before moving a domestic game overseas. That way, there is no longer a need to define what a home game is to bring it in scope, and it ensures that as part of the assessment of this request to relocate a game, the regulator must specifically consult UK-based fans of the clubs involved in the relocation. Importantly, this does not rule out the relocation of a game; it requires any additional fixture that is part of a competition to be subject to consultation in the way specified in the Bill.
I would welcome the Minister’s observations on this amendment and her assessment of two questions. First, what happens if the competition organiser allocates games directly to an overseas location? How will the existing clause protect against that? Secondly, what happens if the competition organiser creates a new format, such as another 39th game that cannot easily be defined as a home game? The amendment tries to cover those extra, niche cases. With that in mind, I beg to move.
My Lords, I am assuming that this is a probing amendment. Other sports—not British sports—do this, such as American football. Is it the Government’s intention that the regulator will make sure that such games are played at home? If the Minister can say that that is the intention, we are all comparatively happy; if not, we have a real problem.
My Lords, I rise in support of the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Wood of Anfield. If all football fans were surveyed—more than the 20,000 to 30,000 that responded to Dame Tracey Crouch’s report—this would be one of the issues they cared about most. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Mann, will not mind me putting words in his mouth, but if he were here, I think he would say in his Yorkshire tones, “Home should mean home.” The Government must do everything they can to ensure that.
I thank my noble friend Lord Wood of Anfield for tabling Amendment 235. Clause 48 has been designed to prevent clubs unilaterally moving their home ground with no regard for the vital role it plays in the club’s history and identity, as well as its financial position. In essence, it is intended to capture instances such as Wimbledon’s move to Milton Keynes and is a really important protection in the legislation. The Government believe that this protection must remain in the Bill to enable the regulator to deliver its key objectives and ensure that home grounds have the appropriate safeguards in place. This amendment, however, seeks to address a slightly different but related issue of competition organisers relocating matches elsewhere. Many of the current instances of this are, for example, play-off matches at Wembley, which have become a key part of English football heritage in and of themselves.
However, I am aware that my noble friend wants this amendment to address situations in which a match could be moved outside England and Wales. Noble Lords will be aware that FIFA is currently reviewing its position on overseas league matches. I do recognise the point the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, made—although I would not presume to paraphrase my noble friend Lord Mann—and how significant this would be for supporters. FIFA has committed to looking at how it might impact supporters, as well as players and a number of other valuable considerations. While the industry is still considering its position on this matter, and many clubs have spoken against the proposals, we do not think the regulator should have a specific power to directly address this. However, the regulator will ensure that clubs consult fans on any changes to match days, including moving the location. The Government will remain in conversation with the relevant governing bodies on this developing issue.
I am happy to continue conversations with noble Lords who have a specific interest in this issue before we get to Report. But for the reasons I have laid out, I must ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.
I thank the Minister for that reply. I also thank her—I did not before—and her officials for the generous way she has spared time not just for me but for lots of other Members of this House over the last few weeks. It is really appreciated.
I understand what the Minister says, and I also understand that FIFA is currently revising its proposals. We have spent a lot of time worrying about provoking FIFA, and I understand why there is sensitivity there. The requirement to consult fans on moving matches assumes that there is already a scheduled match that needs to be moved. My amendment is about two problems that there are in fact technical ways around. So, that issue is still a live one. There will be more discussion about this, and I know the Minister is going to be as generous with her time as she has been already, so with that in mind—
I urge the Minister to give this some more thought, because it is a pertinent and powerful core issue, and we should all be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Wood of Anfield, for raising it. As the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, said, fans worry about these things; they do not want to see “home” meaning something completely different. That is why we should have something in the Bill on this topic.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, very much. My two teams are Liverpool and Tonbridge Angels of the National League South. One is an internationally competitive team—and the other is Tonbridge Angels; but place is crucial to both teams. If you are a fan of Liverpool from Los Angeles or Singapore, the place of Anfield and the locality and the community relationship are absolutely part of what it is you support. Home and away fixtures are a routine part of how the Premier League competition is conducted. That is why this is essential, not just to large clubs but to small clubs across the country.
This issue has arisen before. The FA Cup is the oldest cup competition in the world, yet one club that held the title did not enter it the following season in order to play a match in the world championships in South America. Does the Minister think the regulator would have the power to prevent that happening in future? It is the kind of thing regulators should be looking at.
I am grateful to the noble Lord. That is a very live issue as well, but I do not want to expand my amendment to that.
I am conscious of the time, so with those caveats, and with thanks to colleagues who have intervened, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
My Lords, we can probably dispose of this one relatively quickly. All that we seek is some reassurance, on the record, that the levy raised by the IFR will not overburden smaller clubs. We are trying to get some assurance that the levy will be relative to the income of the clubs and that any other levy that the IFR might want to raise for a central fund of any sort would also closely reflect the ability of the clubs concerned to fund that. It has to be relative to their income, strength and viability. That is the purpose of the amendments in this group, and I am keen to get that on the record.
My Lords, I have some concerns about what the noble Lord advocates in this amendment. He advocates setting up a central fund in one of his other amendments, and the purpose of that is not clear, unless it is to provide a mechanism, in effect, for redistributing the levy funding the operation of the regulator, presumably from bigger and better-off clubs to smaller clubs. That will dilute the incentive that should exist for the regulator to constrain its size, cost and degree of interventionism because of the effect on smaller clubs.
This comes back to the sense that the rich, big or better-off clubs are somehow there to be plucked in terms of the redistribution of funds down through the pyramid—already, 16% of the revenues of the Premier League goes down into clubs through the pyramid. My concern throughout the consideration of the Bill has been that, if the regulator is set up in too large a manner and exercises its powers as regulators have an inbuilt tendency to do—they increase their scope and degree of intervention—that will have a cost.
A primary aim of the Bill and of setting up the regulator is to “improve” the distribution of money down through the pyramid, but the more the regulator does, the larger it is and the greater the extent of its activity, the less there is to distribute. If it is not strictly controlled, it will become self-defeating. If the purpose of the central fund that the noble Lord advocates is, in effect, to increase that degree of redistribution from bigger clubs to smaller clubs, as it seems to be, the effect would be to exacerbate the concerns that a number of us will have about the direction of travel and the inevitable tendency for a regulator of this kind to increase its scope, size, interventionism and, inevitably, cost.
I have given notice of my desire to oppose that Clause 53 stands part of the Bill, on the basis that the power to impose a levy will damage football. If the Government are so concerned to have this regulator, they should raise the money for it themselves and not have the regulator able, in a very uncontrolled way, to impose a levy—potentially very large amounts of money, as the impact assessment makes clear—on the very activity of the sport that we love, inflicting damage on it that would run counter to the intention of the Bill.
My Lords, I will try to put the noble Lord’s mind at rest. Most regulators are financed by the industries that they regulate, and the noble Lord knows that; he knows a lot about regulation. Given that there may be, from time to time, a need to strengthen the capacity of clubs lower down in the pyramid to operate, comply with regulations and all the rest of it, it is not unreasonable for the IFR to have the ability and capacity to exercise a levy.
The Premier League is generating considerably large sums of money and, although the distribution down the pyramid looks extremely generous in raw number terms, it is worth being reminded that some 92% of the revenue generated ends up being maintained by the Premier League and those five clubs in the Championship that receive parachute payments and the rest. There is a lot of money here, and we need to make sure that the regulator has the capacity to intervene in a way that is entirely fair. Later amendments deal with some of this issue, but we should have that at the front of our minds when we consider this.
My Lords, we look forward to hearing what the Minister says about the amendments in this group, although I think, as my friend Lord Maude of Horsham pointed out, we are all listening with different hopes and expectations about what she may say.
Briefly, my Amendment 256 in this group specifies that the regulator must consult the Chancellor of the Exchequer rather than His Majesty’s Treasury in the abstract. It seeks to ensure a clearer line of accountability and strengthen the governance structure for decisions relating to the levy. The Chancellor might well delegate this responsibility, but she should be accountable in law and the Bill ought to point to her as the Minister at the head of that department and not anyone else at the Treasury. I look forward to the noble Baroness’s responses to the amendments in this group.
My Lords, very briefly, it is probably important to remember that a lot of this is about making sure that we preserve our football league. If a different Government had not intervened, we would have a European Super League and the Premier League would not be there. That is what happened.
We must remember that the preservation of those top five leagues is intrinsic to the Bill. If we want that to carry on, some money will occasionally have to be raised to support their structure so that it is more stable. The noble Lord’s amendment is reasonable. There may be a reasonable answer about why it does not have to go in, but I agree with the concept.
What the noble Lord says is simply not the case. When the European Super League was proposed, what stopped it from happening and what made the clubs drop it like a red-hot potato was the fact that the fans reacted with fury. Admittedly, the rather populist Prime Minister of the time responded to the fan fury by uttering threats, but it was not the politicians, the Government, your Lordships’ House, the other place or a fantasy regulator who stopped it; it was the fans who stopped it, and we should have absolutely no illusion about that.
My Lords, that might be the noble Lord’s interpretation, but, ultimately, it is government that makes law.
My Lords, just to be clear for the record, no law was passed in this instance. In a matter of days the clubs quickly withdrew from the competition because, as my noble friend mentioned, it went down like a lead balloon and fans were up in arms. The Government were nowhere near it. That was a perfect example of where the clubs and the fans regulated themselves.
My Lords, I have a very strong recollection of this because I wrote an article the day after the proposal came, which was published, like many articles at the time, and I remember that the very next day the proposal was withdrawn. It had nothing to do with the Government. By the way, I was not a politician at the time; some would say I am not one now, but it had nothing to do with Governments or Parliaments.
My Lords, this is the first time I have spoken in Committee. I am rather late to it but I spoke at Second Reading. On this matter of history, it is not usual that I come out in support of a previous Conservative Prime Minister, but the truth is that once the fans showed their feelings—I agree that they did—the then Prime Minister, within a short number of hours or certainly days, quickly came up and took over the issue, as it were, on behalf of his Government. That was well done and, along with the fans’ disagreement, it had a profound effect on the clubs, some more reluctantly than others, which withdrew from that mad scheme.
My Lords, I specifically remember this as it involved Manchester United. It is propitious that the noble Lord, Lord Johnson, has arrived as it was his brother, the then Prime Minister, who said “I would drop a legislative bomb on this proposal”. Do your Lordships remember the language? That is precisely what happened and it killed it dead.
We have interventions on interventions here and we should move on.
My Lords, before we have any further interventions, I thank my noble friends Lord Bassam of Brighton and Lady Taylor of Bolton, as well as the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, for their amendments. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Maude of Horsham, for his contribution on this group, which sparked a lively debate, and for giving notice of his intention to oppose the Question that Clause 53 stand part of the Bill. It is useful to remember why we are here, but my comments will focus on the amendments in this group. It is imperative that the regulator can raise the funds necessary to deliver its regulatory functions, so I thank my noble friends and the noble Lords who have raised this important issue.
Turning first to Amendments 250 and 254 in the name of my noble friend Lord Bassam, I want to reassure him that the existing drafting in Clause 53(3) is comprehensive, in the Government’s view, and provides the necessary mechanism for raising these funds. Clause 53(3) also acts as an important constraint on what the regulator can charge clubs for. We believe that the amendment would risk bypassing this safeguard. We also want to be clear that, under the existing drafting, any such central fund could not be used as a form of lifeboat fund to prop up clubs in distress. It is the Government’s opinion that a zero-failure regulator, as implied, would create moral hazard and encourage the very risk-taking that the regulator is trying to address.
On Amendment 252 in the name of my noble friend Lady Taylor of Bolton, the Government acknowledge the importance of any charges on clubs being transparent and proportionate, and offering value for money. These values should be at the heart of any public body. This must be achieved while maintaining the regulator’s operational independence and flexibility, which is why it would not be appropriate to prescribe an exact methodology in legislation for charging the levy. Doing so would remove the regulator’s ability to explore other, possibly more effective and proportionate, methods of charging. The Bill already requires the regulator to have regard to clubs’ financial resources and position in the pyramid. I am confident that this will be sufficient to ensure that the levy is fair and proportionate. I hope this will give my noble friends reassurance that these costs will not be burdensome to clubs.
Amendment 256 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, would require the regulator to consult with the Chancellor of the Exchequer specifically, as opposed to the Treasury, when making, amending or replacing levy rules. Consulting with the Treasury on levy rules is standard practice for a regulator, and this approach has been agreed with the department. The Chancellor, as head of the Treasury, will have full oversight of the Treasury’s response to the consultation. The Chancellor is accountable for the decisions of the Treasury and any consultation with the Treasury is likely to have the approval of the Chancellor. Therefore, the Government’s view is that the existing requirement to consult with the Treasury is sufficient to ensure value for money.
Finally, on whether Clause 53 should stand part of the Bill, this clause will allow the regulator to charge a levy to licensed clubs that covers the regulator’s running costs. This follows the precedent of other regulators such as the FCA, the CMA and Ofcom.
I thank the Minister for allowing an intervention. Has there been any further development on the cost of the regulator? I know that we have asked the question on numerous occasions, but we have not had a reply. It would be very good for clubs to know what the Government expect the regulator to cost. The Minister mentioned the FCA; that costs £762 million a year. I hope it will not be that much.
I was going to come on to that. I anticipated that if the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, was here, he would ask me that question. If I can carry on through my speech, with the noble Baroness’s permission, I will address that later in my remarks.
We think it only fair that industry should cover the cost, as opposed to taxpayers. Football is a wealthy industry, and the cost of regulation would represent just a tiny fraction of its annual revenue of over £6 billion. However, this legislation puts robust checks and balances on the regulator. It will be limited to raising funds to meet a set of tightly defined costs that are necessary for regulatory activity only. The regulator will not have a blank cheque; it will be subject to numerous safeguards, including annual auditing by the National Audit Office, and its annual accounts will be laid before Parliament. This will provide the necessary transparency and scrutiny to deliver value for money.
Clause 53 also requires the regulator to have regard to a club’s individual financial position and the league it plays in when setting the levy charges that a club must pay. This should ensure a proportionate approach where no club, big or small, is asked to pay more than what is fair and affordable. As noble Lords are aware, the regulator will be the one that decides on the methodology and, ultimately, the cost of the levy.
I understand, however, that there is a clear desire, as expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, and other Members of your Lordships’ Committee, to have a much better understanding of how the costs may be borne at different levels of the game. I will endeavour to provide more clarity on this issue. Therefore, after further discussions with the shadow regulator, I will write to noble Lords to provide further clarity on costs ahead of Report. I will also place a copy of this letter in the Libraries of both Houses and would be happy to meet noble Lords or take any questions.
This is a complex issue and we cannot fetter the discretion of the regulator. The letter, when it comes, cannot therefore be considered a definite estimation of costs. It will merely be illustrative, in an attempt to be helpful to this Committee and provide your Lordships’ House—and the clubs that will be regulated—with some clarity and reassurance before we get to Report.
For the reasons I have set out, I am unable to accept the amendments in this group. I therefore hope that noble Lords will not press them.
My Lords, I am more than happy to withdraw my amendment and grateful to the Minister for the assurances that she has given about the levy. I just say to colleagues on the Opposition Benches: it is worth reminding ourselves that we are talking about the regulation of only 116 different football entities. This is a small regulator, at the end of the day, so we should not be overly worried about its eventual costs. I think the costs will be, in relative terms, small—nothing at all by comparison with the FCA. Some of the clubs regulated, such as Gateshead, employ only three staff. If you are an Ebbsfleet staffer, you are one of just six, whereas Arsenal employs more than 500 full-time backroom staff. That is why we need to be certain that the levy raised is proportionate to the size of the club. Proportionality should be at the core of the regulator’s consideration when setting its levy. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
(1 week, 1 day ago)
Lords ChamberMy Lords, I thank the Minister for the Statement, which, she will be aware, has been broadly welcomed by the sector. There has been considerable uncertainty while the Government put the previous Government’s decisions on hold, particularly as the terms of reference of the review have not been published. The decisions bring some short-term certainty to the sector, but they raise longer-term questions.
A significant number of qualifications have been extended to 2027, so before very long there will be more hesitancy among providers about what happens beyond that. The Minister understands far better than I how much the sector needs certainty. I would be grateful if she could set out the Government’s vision for the technical education landscape. If she is not able to do that today, perhaps she can give a sense of when the Government will be ready to do that.
The Statement talks about keeping a mix of T-levels and other qualifications, but it is not clear—if I have missed something, maybe the Minister can clarify for the benefit of the House—what the Government see as the end point in their aspirations. It would be really helpful to have a sense of that. The Minister is acutely aware of the concerns across the House regarding the IfATE Bill and the risk that momentum is lost on delivering the skills strategy, which the Government rightly talks about as a key priority. I hope very much that, in considering this issue, she will take seriously the concerns raised all around the House, including on her own Benches.
In the Statement, the Secretary of State talks about keeping funding for engineering and manufacturing qualifications that had previously been identified for defunding, and keeping those qualifications until 2027. Can the Minister add anything more about the Government’s plans for new qualifications in these areas, which are obviously critical for our economic growth?
Finally, there are real concerns among providers about the recent increase in employers’ national insurance and the negative impact that that may have on colleges, which risks negating the very welcome £300 million uplift in funding which the Government announced. Can the Minister give the House an estimate of the impact of those changes?
On these Benches, we very much welcome this Statement. We got a flavour of what was to come when the Minister, in a recent opinion piece in Further Education Week, struck a more conciliatory tone and indicated that the Labour Government now see a bigger role for applied general and other qualifications, alongside A-levels and T-levels.
We on these Benches have consistently opposed the scrapping of BTECs. While there is always some value in rationalising qualifications from time to time, forcing students into a choice between A-levels and T-levels will narrow the choices of the students at a time when we need a range of ways for them to gain the transferable skills needed in future careers. BTECs are popular with students, respected by employers and provide a well-established route to higher education or employment, so it is hard to understand why the Government wanted to scrap most of them and force young people to choose between studying A-levels or T-levels from the age of 16. We are concerned that removing the option of BTEC qualifications will adversely affect poorer students in particular.
I have two questions for the Minister. First, a particular difficulty for schools and colleges has been uncertainty. It is impossible to plan for a course, have the right staff on hand and have timetables planned if you are unsure whether a course will actually run. For many students, this is very unsettling. Will the Government undertake to provide certainty for colleges, schools and pupils? Secondly, we can all recognise the teething problems that T-levels have had, with low student satisfaction, complex assessments and major work experience requirements. What will the Government be doing to tackle these issues moving forward?
I thank noble Lords for their response to the Statement. As the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, says, we have been clear, in making this Statement, that we are providing certainty for colleges and sixth forms up to 2027, which was certainly one of the sector’s requests.
The noble Baroness asked about the future vision for technical education and the skills system, which I have been able to expound at some length in the consideration of the IfATE Bill. Fundamentally, our view is that skills are essential to this Government, particularly given their mission-led approach. The skills system has a crucial role to play in training the workforce needed to deliver our missions of greening the energy system, rebuilding the health service and delivering safer streets, and is a core component of growing the economy and ensuring that everybody has opportunities to succeed throughout their lives.
We are in the process of developing a comprehensive strategy for post-16 education and skills, to break down barriers to opportunities, support the development of a skilled workforce and drive economic growth through our industrial strategy. At the Association of Colleges conference at the beginning of November, I was able to outline some of the key principles that will apply to that strategy. I hope that we will be in a position to publish more information about the principles and vision of the strategy soon, and then work collaboratively with noble Lords, and, importantly, the sector, to bring forward the details of that.
One of the reasons for providing certainty on qualifications to 2027 is to enable the Government’s curriculum and assessment review to carry out its work, and to do so in a way that will inform further consideration of ensuring that the qualification options for level 3 students—those between 16 and 19—deliver on the fundamental need for appropriate choice and high-quality qualifications, with support from employers and others to ensure that the qualifications, particularly in the technical and vocational area, deliver the skills needed to grow the economy.
I am looking forward to Report stage of the IfATE Bill after our Christmas break, when we will all come back refreshed and ready to re-engage in this important legislation. I have been reflecting hard on the points made by noble Lords in Committee about clarity on the role of Skills England, and the ability for noble Lords to see more clearly how the functions transferred to the Secretary of State to be invested in Skills England will be implemented. I look forward to sharing those views and bringing forward what I hope will be helpful changes to provide assurance to noble Lords when that Bill comes back.
The noble Baroness asked in particular about engineering and manufacturing. It is probably worth while saying that one of the new ways that we have approached the qualifications review is to take a route-by-route look at the options available to students. The reason for the decision to keep the applied qualifications in engineering and manufacturing is precisely that the occupational standards in this area—where employers play a crucial role in identifying what those are—are in the process of being updated. We want to make further decisions and invite reform to qualifications in the light of those improved and updated occupational standards when they emerge.
On national insurance contributions, the Chancellor announced at the Budget that public bodies will receive support to help with the costs of the employer national insurance contribution increase, and we will set out in due course what support will be available to colleges.
In addition to asking about certainty, the noble Lord, Lord Storey, asked about T-levels. As we made clear in the Statement, T-levels are high-quality qualifications, and we want to extend the opportunity they provide to as many young people as possible. We acknowledge that T-levels are large programmes of study and cannot always meet the needs of all learners who want to study in the occupations that they cover, which is the argument for leaving alternatives. However, where a student wants to study a large qualification equivalent to three A-levels’ worth of study in the routes that T-levels cover, T-levels should be the qualification that is offered to them.
We have already taken specific action on one key issue with respect to T-levels, the industrial placements, which are enormously popular with students. When I talk to T-level students, I find that they are enormously enthusiastic about the opportunity to carry out a 45-day placement, but to grow T-levels, we need to ensure that those placements are in place. That is why we have introduced flexibilities around the way in which the placements can be offered, to enable the continued growth of T-levels.
In certain T-levels, of which digital is a good example, the awarding bodies are now looking at the assessment within the T-level to ensure that, while it remains the rigorous qualification that it should be, it is more manageable for those providing it and for students, while enabling students to demonstrate what they have learnt.
I thank noble Lords opposite for their questions. I hope that we now have a period of certainty where students will be able to benefit from the choice of a range of qualifications, with an assurance that this Government will continue to ensure that they will be as high-quality as possible in order to support students’ opportunities throughout life and to meet the need for skills to help us grow the economy.
I also welcome the Statement and thank the Minister for the way in which she has carried out this review. It has been open- minded and consultative, and I know that not only colleagues in the House but, beyond that, those across the sector have appreciated it. That gives us a very good foundation on which to work, so I thank her for that.
I take the point about the 2027 date, which the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, raised. I absolutely see the rationale for rolling it into the curriculum review, so that they are not seen as separate and competing but part of a whole. That is just one of those things, and it is manageable.
I want to raise two points, if the Minister could respond to them. First, of course, we are talking about qualifications and learning in an area that is never set in stone. I seek some reassurance that, as we move forward and review the qualifications, we do not slip into looking only at content but that we always bear in mind that we are looking for a variety of teaching and learning styles to give children real choice over what they want to do.
The second point is about work experience. I take the point about the importance of work experience for T-levels, but they are not the only qualification for which it is important. It is important for BTECs, and, as the Government said, they hope it will be important for key stage 4 as well. Does the Minister have any reflections, or might she be able to come back to us in the future to let us know how we can manage that interface between the world of work and the world of education, so that all children get equal access and opportunities to do work experience where it is appropriate?
I thank my noble friend for those comments. I suspect that she—like me—has taught these qualifications. I introduced a general vocational qualification into a high school where I taught, so I very much take her point about the different teaching and learning styles from which students can benefit. I know she agrees that we must ensure that we do not lower the quality of qualifications for students who perhaps need different teaching and learning styles. We continue to review to ensure that qualifications are of a high standard.
From my experience of visiting colleges offering T-levels, I have to say that there are some very innovative approaches to the ways in which they are delivered. That is why there has been a steady growth in the number of young people undertaking T-levels. Of course, we have introduced three new areas this year, and there will be another new one next year.
I also take my noble friend’s point about extensive engagement. The process of the review involved consulting more than 250 individuals, including principals of FE and sixth form colleges, senior and curriculum leaders, teachers and subject specialists in FE, employer representative bodies, industry leaders, awarding organisations, mayoral combined authorities and other government departments. That is one reason why it has received broad support: it was, in essence, co-designed with those who will be responsible for delivering the qualifications process.
On the point about work experience, my noble friend is of course right that while industry placements are a key element of T-levels, they also play an important role both post and pre-16. That is where we need to ensure that placements maintain rigour, are of quality and enable employers to step forward to do that. That is what we have sought to achieve with the flexibilities we have introduced into T-levels.
We need to continue working with employers by providing reassurance and the flexibility necessary to enable them to offer a range of placements. That is one of the things we do with our T-level and apprenticeship ambassadors, who work with employers to encourage them to offer the sorts of placements that will be beneficial for students in whatever course they are taking—whether it is one of those placements or work experience. We will continue to do that.
My Lords, I welcome this Statement. T-levels are a very useful part of the qualifications landscape, but it was never realistic to think that T-levels and A-levels between them could somehow dominate all the options available for 16 to 18 year-olds. Many former Ministers on both sides of this House took that view—I see my noble friend Lord Johnson sitting beside me. Although they are not present, I would like to say that it was good to work with the noble Lords, Lord Blunkett, Lord Baker and Lord Adonis, in arguing for a pause. It is welcome that we have now secured a rather better future, at least for some time, for BTECs.
I am sure the Minister will be aware of the recent report from the independent Education Policy Institute, which said that
“T levels are currently unsuitable for many Level 3 learners”.
That message from independent research is one that we all need to take to heart. I have two specific questions for the Minister. First, will she confirm that T-levels cannot do everything, alongside A-levels? They are a very useful qualification for a route to a post as a technician, but it is not clear that they can do everything, and so BTECs and NVQs have a lasting role in the vocational qualification landscape. On eliminating uncertainty, which my noble friend Lady Barran raised, a statement recognising that T-Levels cannot do it all would be very welcome.
My second question concerns the cost of T-levels. It has always been noticeable that in the DfE there is no money in some areas but in other areas money pours out to fund new initiatives. The Minister referred to the value of the 45-day placements. However, can she tell the House how much the funding of these 45-day placements is costing? Given that spreading access to work experience is so important, does she have any concerns that this very substantial funding for one specific way of accessing work experience is having the effect of diminishing opportunities for work experience for other students not on the T-level route?
The noble Lord is right that, when faced with a positive phalanx—I do not know what the collective noun is for former Education Ministers—it is probably wise to realise that there is some wisdom there. That has been demonstrated by the results of the review that we have undertaken.
I agree with the noble Lord that T-levels and A-levels would be an insufficient option on their own for all students. To reiterate, where T-levels exist in a route, they are the most appropriate large qualification. One of the other things that we have done is to remove the previously proposed rules of combination, which would have prevented colleges building appropriate courses for their students, in consultation with those students and others. That will provide more flexibility.
I will write to the noble Lord specifically about the cost of T-level placements, but it is right when introducing a new qualification that, as we have done, there is an uplift in revenue funding for T-level students, as well as some capital provision. Any new qualification will need a period of time to scale itself to a position where the normal level of revenue funding would be adequate to deliver it.
My Lords, I too very much welcome the Government’s Statement. I say that on behalf of my noble friends Lord Blunkett, Lady Blower and Lord Knight, who, together with the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, have been campaigning for some time, as my noble friend the Minister knows, to halt the process instigated by the previous Government, who were ditching in a reckless manner far too many other qualifications in favour of T-levels. I am glad to see that it is a Labour Government who have supported BTEC and AGQ students in a way that will not constrain the rollout of T-Levels but will open up more pathways for learners.
I found it rather ironic to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Barran, say that this Statement has been broadly welcomed by the sector. That is not something that could have been said about the proposals she made when she was in government. This goes right back to the time of the skills Bill, as noble Lords on the opposite Benches will recall. We did think that we had had some assurances from the Minister, which subsequently did not materialise, to our considerable annoyance. Many of the applied general qualifications in BTECs, the ending of which was proposed, will now be extended. Those of us who have campaigned to defend rather than defund those qualifications will take some solace from that and welcome the actions of the Government.
The Government’s curriculum and assessment review, led by Becky Francis, is under way and will report shortly. Can my noble friend the Minister say a bit about the way in which the level 3 qualifications set out in the Statement will dovetail with the curriculum and assessment review next year?
I thank my noble friend. He is right that there is something very arresting for a new Member of the House of Lords and a returned Education Minister to attend a meeting with my noble friends Lord Blunkett, Lady Morris, Lady Blower and Lord Knight, all of whom are very expert in this area. I am glad that he thinks I at least listened and understood what they said to me.
My noble friend is right that of the qualifications that we started looking at, of which about 460 were due for defunding by 2026, about 200 had very low enrolments: 100 or fewer students. We have largely managed to remove those from the qualifications landscape. It is probably still the case that that landscape is overly complex for students to be able to work their way through, but we kept 157 of the qualifications that were previously proposed to be defunded.
On the point about the curriculum and assessment review, as I touched on earlier, that review has within its remit the consideration of the assessment routes for 16 to 19 year-olds, and—responding to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, which perhaps I did not address previously—a particular emphasis on ensuring that our curriculum and assessment routes enable everybody to succeed, including those who are disadvantaged and those with special educational needs and disabilities. For that reason, it will focus carefully on bringing forward recommendations about what the assessment route should look like for students post 16, and we will reflect on those and use them as the basis for further decisions about how to ensure that our qualifications for 16 to 19 year-olds are suitably rigorous, suitably accessible and provide appropriate choice for students.
My Lords, like others on all sides of the House, I very much welcome the Government’s rapid work to lift much of the uncertainty over the defunding of applied general qualifications. It would be hugely beneficial if the Government went a little further and were absolutely explicit that this is not just a stay of execution until 2027 but that there is a long-term place for these qualifications in our education system. That is my first point. The second point is: can the Minister show similar rapid work in lifting the uncertainty over how the growth and skills levy will interact with the lifelong learning entitlement, and if not now, say when the Government will do so?
I do not think it is appropriate for anybody—I do not think the noble Lord would have done it—to say that there would never be any development or new qualifications introduced into the 16 to 19 landscape or that there should ever be any ending of any qualification. So the qualifications landscape should not be set in stone. However, I can repeat, as I said to his noble friend, that the Government do not envisage a qualifications landscape in which there is only a choice of T-levels or A-levels. That is one of the reasons why the work of the curriculum and assessment review in setting out its views on what should remain in order to provide appropriate routes for young people will be the basis for any future decisions made there. It is my view that there will always need to be qualifications that are neither A-levels or T-levels, but they need to be of sufficiently high quality to ensure that we are not selling short the young people who take that route.
No sooner have we solved one problem than the noble Lord quite rightly pushes us to get on to the next one. Skills England is currently consulting on some of the current flexibilities that we will be introducing to develop the growth and skills levy, and of course we are also working hard on the implementation of the lifelong learning entitlement. I hope it will not be too long before we will be able to say more about both of those and, as the noble Lord also suggested, how they will link together. But I will just have a little break over Christmas before we come back to do that, and I hope all noble Lords also have a very restful break when it comes.
(1 week, 1 day ago)
Lords ChamberMy Lords, I rise to move Amendment 251 in my name and to speak to Amendments 257 and 258 from my noble friend Lord Parkinson.
Amendment 251 seeks to place a limit on the rate of interest the regulator may charge on any unpaid levies. I think all noble Lords have agreed that we want to keep the regulator fees and cost burden on clubs as low as possible, so having a reasonable rate of interest seems helpful. The proposal is that we take the formula the Government currently use for tuition fees, and which is proposed for the tobacco levy, which is the RPI rate plus 2%. I am not absolutely wedded to that figure, but we believe there should be a figure we can all agree on.
Amendment 257 from my noble friend Lord Parkinson would remove the provision whereby the regulator does not have to consult on changing the levy if it considers the change to be minor. We understand the intent behind that provision, but all sorts of discussions could then be got into about what is minor and what is not, so it is probably easier just to establish that it be properly consulted on if there is a change.
Amendment 258 is pretty straightforward. It seeks to establish that if the regulator plans to change the levy rules, it gives six months’ notice before the chargeable period begins. We have said a number of times that we want clubs to improve their financial budgeting and planning, and this would help them to do that. With those simple changes, I beg to move.
I thank the noble Lords, Lord Markham and Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, for their amendments concerning the levy. On Amendment 251 from the noble Lord, Lord Markham, setting the rate of interest charged on non-payment of the levy is an operational decision for the regulator, which needs the flexibility to charge interest at a rate that deters non-payment. A rate that is too low could increase the incentive for non-payment and jeopardise the regulator’s ability to carry out its functions. The level of interest charged would be subject to the same consultation requirements as the levy itself. This will ensure a firm but fair level of interest.
Amendment 257, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, would require the regulator to consult every regulated club and others such as the Secretary of State and the Treasury on minor changes to the levy rules. These would be immaterial amendments or replacements to levy rules, such as correcting mistakes. Going out to gather the views of all clubs feels like it would be a disproportionate burden on clubs and on the regulator. For material changes, the Bill already requires the regulator to consult as appropriate. No club, especially those in the National League, wants the administrative burden of unnecessary consultation.
Finally, on Amendment 258 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Markham, requiring the regulator to publish its levy charge six months before the chargeable period would create an operational challenge. The regulator would have to estimate a levy charge having only half a year’s costs to base it on. This could lead to inaccurate levy charges, which could see the regulator underfunded or clubs needlessly burdened. The current requirement of charges being publicised as soon as reasonably practicable strikes the right balance, we feel, between adequate notice for clubs and operational flexibility for the regulator to ensure an accurate and appropriate levy charge.
I therefore hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
I thank the Minister for her reply. As I say, these are not major things, but I must admit, I am a little surprised. The Government rightly see fit to set interest rates on all sorts of other things they deal with, such as student loans, tobacco and vapes, so it seems strange that they do not have a view on what should be an appropriate rate for the regulator to charge. I am not aware of that happening in other parts of the government network.
On the final amendment, this is about the regulator behaving responsibly if it is going to change things. Here, there seems to be a pattern. We had a debate earlier about what happens if the regulator does not approve someone as being fit and proper within the right time period. Again, the Government were saying the regulator might not be able to do it, so that person is automatically deemed not fit and proper. All noble Lords would probably agree that we need the regulator to be a bit more on its game than this. We should be a bit tougher and say that there is no reason why it cannot work out its rules on a change to the levy and give clubs six months’ notice. If the regulator is asking clubs to be financially disciplined, it should be doing the same.
I pose those as things for the Minister to consider but at this point, I will happily withdraw my amendment.
My Lords, this is the first of a number of amendments in a very large group—enormous, in fact—but they all have at their core an impact on the way in which the independent football regulator could make financial distribution decisions.
I will run through some of the more important ones briefly. Amendment 260 would mean that it is not only a specified competition organiser that can trigger the mediation process. Amendment 261 would provide for competition organisers to obtain consent before determining the distribution of revenue and would require the IFR to be satisfied that the distribution proposals comply with its general principles which are contained in Section 62(2).
Amendment 267 would oblige the Secretary of State to consult people who represent the views of regulated clubs and the views of fans of regulated clubs before making regulations which specify the source or description of relevant revenue. Amendment 268 would amend the definition of distribution agreement. Amendment 269 is also part of this series and would mean that it is not only a specified competition organiser which can trigger the mediation process regarding the distribution of revenue.
Amendment 276 seeks to provide that a competition organiser can apply to the IFR to trigger the resolution process if there has been a change to rather than any reduction in the revenue received by a competition organiser. Amendment 284 would require any notification that a competition organiser gives to trigger the resolution process regarding distribution revenues. Amendment 293 would insert an amendment to trigger the resolution process. Amendment 318 would narrow the circumstances in which the independent football regulator may revoke a distribution order where the competition organisers have agreed a distribution agreement to circumstances where that distribution order complies with Section 62(1)(a) or (b) or Section 62(4)(a) on the principles in general set out in that section.
Why are these amendments necessary? It is principally because we require a degree of flexibility for the regulator. We want to ensure that the regulator can trigger a mediation process and impose its own deal if the parties fail to reach agreement by mediation. Currently, it seems to me that the regulator will be presented with a binary choice, and neither of those choices might be perfect.
At the moment, the deal is primarily controlled by the Premier League. Overall, 88% of broadcast revenue goes to the Premier League and 7% of the remainder goes to clubs who get parachute payments, meaning that the remaining 5% is split between the next 138 clubs in the pyramid. I accept the case that has been powerfully made by the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, that the Premier League is a great league, that it produces incredible and impressive revenues and that those revenues have worked to solidify the excellence of the league and improve the quality of the clubs, the entertainment on offer and the players who are available to it.
However, it seems to me that we ignore at our peril the rest of the pyramid. Currently, for every £1,000 that goes to a Premier League club, just £313 goes to a Championship club and, if you take it down to a National League South club, it gets just 14p. Yet, if you look at the attendance figures, 45% of football fans, roughly speaking, go to a Premier League match and the remaining 55% go to games in the Championship, League One, League Two, National League, National League North and National League South, so there is a case for better distribution. I am not saying what that distribution should be—that is obviously a matter for which the regulator will be responsible—but the regulator needs to be able to make that decision based on the best possible circumstances. So these amendments are designed to facilitate that and to allow the regulator to act freely, working with football industry bodies and ensuring that they have the best possible information.
That is why my amendments seek to generate some flexibility and why a distribution deal must pass parameters set by the regulator, so that the gap between the various levels of football can perhaps be narrowed. It was never intended to be as wide as it is today. Initially, the gap between the Premier League and the Championship level was a lot narrower, and then again between the Championship and Leagues One and Two. It is the important development of football TV rights that has allowed the Premier League to become as rich as it has and to pay the wages that it can pay. International comparisons put the Premier League way ahead of any similar leading leagues.
We have a strange situation where some 64 clubs in the top four divisions have gone into administration since the start of the Premier League. That is clearly an unhealthy situation and a better distribution deal that is properly regulated would begin to address some of the gaps and some of the disparities. That is the spirit behind these amendments.
The noble Lord will be well aware that the EFL has just signed a very great deal with Sky, with revenue coming in, and I do not believe that that money is distributed down the pyramid either. One hopes that the Championship and the EFL will continue to improve and get better deals. Does his amendment include the fact that perhaps that league needs to start looking to distribute and that if its income starts to increase, as we all hope it will do—we have heard that it is the sixth-richest league anyway—it is not just the Premier League that needs to be involved in this but the EFL itself? At the moment, it does not distribute any of the income from the money that it gets in from broadcasting. Perhaps it needs to look at distributing some of its income down the leagues as much as the Premier League does.
My Lords, the noble Baroness makes a compelling point. It is the case that the EFL is dominated by the Championship clubs. The noble Baroness is absolutely right that the EFL has secured a beneficial deal. It is not for me, her or anyone else in this Committee to say what the right sum of money is. I am merely pointing out that the distribution has changed over time. The available money for distribution has grown as the game has become more successful as a product unique to England and Wales, and it is for the IFR to get the distribution right. The point that the noble Baroness makes is that we should not be arguing the case for either the EFL or the Premier League; we should be arguing the case for football, because it is all of football that we want to see benefit, so that the pyramid truly acts as a pyramid and acts well in strengthening the national game.
My Lords, before I address the amendments in this group, I want to echo the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Bassam. With 44 amendments in this group, it really is hard to get your head around them all. Although they are given the broad title of “Regulatory powers”, I do not think that is conducive to good debate.
Many of the amendments are consequential. I have highlighted the main points for the benefit of the Committee and that was my objective so that it would get the message.
I appreciate the noble Lord’s efforts to do that. It was not specific to this group. There have been a number of examples which have been unwieldy, to say the least.
I turn to Amendments 260, 269 and 293 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor. They alter the backstop method to enable the regulator to trigger the resolution process. The current drafting permits only the competition organisers to trigger it. That is quite a profound change, if you think about it. To date, we have been saying that the regulator should step in only as a last resort if the competitions cannot reach an agreement among themselves. What we are saying here is that the regulator can step in—I guess, in theory even if the competition organisers have agreed—if it feels for some reason it is not quite happy with the agreement. That seems quite a shift away from the principles we were talking about earlier. Our concern would be that we are suddenly setting up a role for a quite muscular regulator which can interfere maybe not at breakfast, lunch and tea but quite a bit of the time, to say the least.
Amendment 276 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, states that the leagues can trigger the resolution process if there has been a change to revenue received by other leagues, as mentioned. Again, I think we could get into situations where a five-year deal has been put in place and a league is suddenly trying to reopen the deal. I am delighted that the Championship has a good Sky deal. Do we think that gives cause to reopen the deal? That would be a concern there. I am always a great believer that a deal is a deal is a deal. You live by that deal for that time and when it comes up again, that is the time to negotiate. Amendment 264 from the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, again makes provision for multiple competition organisers to trigger the backstop and mediation process.
In all of these, there is a general concern that instead of the backstop being the backstop, as it is called, it becomes almost the first stop and the first resort. It goes to the concern that noble Lords have mentioned many times that while we start with the principle of a light-touch regulator, very quickly we get into a scenario of a pretty heavy-touch, muscular regulator. That would be our concern.
Amendment 261 provides that competition organisers must obtain the regulator’s consent before entering into a distribution agreement. Again, this adds another level of complexity. If the competitions have agreed between them, why do they need to get the consent of the regulator? It goes far beyond the original intentions of the backstop per the Dame Tracey Crouch report, in which she referred to it as the nuclear option, and how that would be the only case it would come up in. Instead, through these amendments, we would be setting up a lot of situations in which it would be the first resort.
While I understand that the intentions of the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, are noble—as ever—I feel that this is another circumstance of mission creep and unintended consequences, where we would end up with a very muscular regulator. Those are our concerns.
My Lords, I am not very bothered by having a muscular regulator; I want an efficient one that gets things done and looks after the lower clubs. There is a disagreement between us that has been there all through this Committee.
I regard the series of amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, as a smorgasbord from which we should select something that is actually going to get us to have a look at what is going on. There are lots of options and I have put my name to one of them. Making sure that we get the regulator right and get money going down to preserve something we regard as good is the primary objective. It is not just to take money off the Premier League; it is to make sure that the structures below survive.
If the Government think these amendments are not the right way to progress, hearing why from the Minister would be sensible. Nobody is quite happy with the backstop power in the regulation structure at the moment. Everybody is a little bit upset about it. People who were happy are now not happy. The Premier League and EFL are having great fun not talking to each other or disagreeing. I have no real objection to a slightly more muscular approach. I do not think it is a light touch that is required; it should be efficient.
My Lords, the amendments in this group cover a wide range of issues relating to the backstop. While I understand the intentions behind many of these amendments, I fear that they collectively risk making an already contentious and divisive mechanism even more complex and counterproductive.
I respect that Ministers believe they have designed a balanced mechanism that places incentives in the right place, but I think what we will come to unpack is that that is wholly mistaken. I believe this Committee will see that this backstop has not and will not incentivise industry-led agreements, which is supposedly its overreaching policy purpose. I believe we will see that it will not result in a balanced, pragmatic solution that will be good for football.
It will instead drive posturing, game playing and the development of extreme and damaging solutions. We will see that this backstop is legally untested and uncertain, and it could sink football and the regulator into a legal and political quagmire that could drag on for years. Worst of all, we will see that this backstop has already poisoned, and will continue to poison, the well of football bodies’ relationships, when we all need to work together for our continued collective success.
I will briefly address some of the amendments in this group. The proposal to expand the scope of the backstop to include multiple parties all at once—for example, the National League, or potentially the FA and, even in the future, the women’s game—is concerning. This risks creating division where none currently exists. The Premier League, far from being at odds with these stakeholders, has made intensive and carefully considered efforts to support them, just as it has with the EFL.
Just a few months ago, the Premier League announced a £12.6 million package for the National League system over three years, a substantial increase on previous arrangements. For the women’s game, the Premier League has provided significant financial assistance, including a £20 million interest-free loan to help the new Women’s Professional Leagues Limited in its formative years.
These are examples of proactive, voluntary agreements that demonstrate collaboration rather than conflict. This set of amendments would encourage all stakeholders to start competing, simultaneously claiming the Premier League’s revenues, fracturing relationships and introducing adversarial dynamics where none currently exist.
This is not the way to build a sustainable and co-operative football ecosystem. Indeed, I will make a prediction: it is far more likely that the National League will seek to trigger the backstop in relation to the EFL, which does not provide any financial support to the leagues below it. The idea of the IFR triggering the backstop mechanism independently is particularly troubling. The purpose of the backstop, as described in the Bill, is to act as a last resort when the parties fail to reach an agreement; it is not supposed to be a front- stop. Allowing the IFR to bypass this voluntary process would undermine its very purpose and disincentivise genuine negotiation.
The idea that any change—not even a reduction—in revenue received by one party could automatically trigger the backstop is, frankly, unworkable. Revenue distributions in football are dynamic and fluctuate according to complex interrelationships. The amounts change every year, almost always upwards. A mechanism that automatically treats any change as a potential trigger would, with the greatest of respect to the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, be absurd. It would trigger perpetual uncertainty, which is the last thing that football needs.
Finally, and more positively, the suggestion that the IFR could impose its own settlement deserves careful scrutiny. I have tabled my own, slightly different amendments to that effect, which will be debated in a later group. I fully agree with noble Lords that the binary mechanism in the Bill is unworkable for football. However, with respect, I am not sure that this particular amendment would place incentives in the right place. To allow the IFR to impose its own settlement only where both parties’ proposals are inconsistent with the IFR’s objectives would allow parties to offer unrealistic proposals. It would mean they could anchor with a very extreme demand, knowing that the IFR would be forced to step in and create a compromise. This would further entrench division.
What is striking about the amendments in this group is that they demonstrate a fundamental dissatisfaction with the mechanism in the Bill from all sides of the House, as well as the main competition parties involved. The Premier League has raised serious concerns about the divisive nature of the backstop, while the EFL has, I believe, inspired the amendments in this group. It too sees significant flaws in the process as designed. This really should give the Government significant pause for thought.
Let us not forget that English football’s success has been built on collaboration and solidarity. UEFA has made this very point about the deficiencies of the current Bill’s mechanism. A backstop requires thoughtful, proportionate regulation that respects the autonomy of its stakeholders. These amendments, and indeed the existing backstop mechanism, would disrupt that delicate balance. I urge the Government to reflect carefully on whether the backstop as designed is fit for purpose. It should be fostering co-operation, not driving division. If that requires revisiting the mechanism, we should do so without hesitation. Football’s future really does depend on getting this right.
My Lords, I want to pick up one particular word that my noble friend Lady Brady raised: divisive. There is no doubt that this Bill has turned what was intended to be a backstop—a last resort or nuclear option, however it was described—into something that can be used pre-emptively. Some of the amendments proposed tonight—which would make it more aggressive and interventionist, and more able to be used pre-emptively—have behind them the sense that this is bound to be aggressive, antagonistic and adversarial. I want to contest that.
The truth is that, wherever a club is in the pyramid of English football, it has an interest in the whole pyramid being strong. There is no benefit to the Premier League in keeping lots more money to itself and weakening the rest of the pyramid, because it depends on the pyramid; its strength is drawn from all the way through the pyramid. It is really important that we try to take ourselves away from the sense that there is a finite pie of limited size and so we should work out how to enable different parts of it to get more for themselves.
English football—the whole pyramid—has seen tremendous growth. It had the huge challenges of the pandemic, but it survived and came out strong. As we have repeatedly said, the Premier League is not just the most successful football league in the world but the most successful sporting league in the world. The Championship is the sixth most successful and richest league in Europe. It is strong and it will grow more, but it will not do so if the whole mindset behind how this is constructed just puts one set of interests against another. The aim should be to ask how we grow the pyramid further and encourage the different parts of it to work together and see the mutual benefit, to make two plus two add up to five, rather than—as I fear the danger is in how this is constructed—add up to three. I urge the Government to take this away and look again at how it is constructed.
My Lords, it is relatively late in the evening and we have debated a lot of clauses and amendments, but I agree with my noble friend Lord Maude that this debate is at the heart of the Bill, at least as far as the Premier League, the Football League and the clubs themselves are concerned, I suspect. What will really get them going in relation to the Bill is not, for better or worse, net zero, diversity or any of those things but the money; it is what happens to the money and the success or failure of their clubs.
When the Minister responds, she will make the best case she can for what is in the Bill—for the backstop—and I understand that. However, when we finish Committee and go on to Report, and when eventually the Bill passes, the debate will not be over; it is just beginning. Once the Bill is passed, as I assume it will be, my noble friend Lady Brady will continue to make her case broadly for the present arrangements and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, will be back to make his case for what my noble friend Lord Markham called the front-stop, while the Government will defend the backstop—and so the debate will go on.
One of the lobby groups that has an interest in the Bill said of it that the debate is over. I found that a remarkable statement, given that this House presumably has a duty to scrutinise legislation and the Bill has not even been down to the other place yet. My point at this stage is that the debate is not over. It will not be over in Committee, on Report or after Third Reading; it will just be beginning. I ask noble Lords to bear this in mind when we come back, later in Committee, to consider clauses that seek to review the Bill as a whole.
I thank my noble friends Lady Taylor of Bolton and Lord Bassam of Brighton for their amendments on this important topic. I thank my noble friend for outlining why distributions are so important to the football pyramid. I will aim to take the amendments in a sensible order, with logical grouping where possible. In appreciating comments on the size of the group, I note that there is a logic to this, as outlined by my noble friend, and I say to the noble Lord, Lord Markham, that I do not think we have skimped on debate during Committee—though I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, both that the hour is getting late and that it does not feel like the debate has finished or will finish any time soon.
I acknowledge the probing intent of the amendments and it is really helpful to have this debate. I know that subsequent groups will go into this a bit more as well. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Addington, that it is important that we do our absolute best to work through the issues that noble Lords have raised and to get the regulator right, which was the point that he made.
I reassure my noble friends that we agree on the importance of regulatory intervention on distributions— I appreciate that not all noble Lords have exactly the same view of this. Amendments 260, 269, 270, 293, 295 and 288 would broaden the powers that the regulator has to intervene by allowing it to trigger the back- stop process. I understand the intention behind the amendments, but we must maintain the backstop process as a last resort, to be triggered by the leagues only if they cannot come to an agreement themselves.
The noble Baroness keeps saying that, and I understand that it is what we hoped was going to happen, but I do not think that anyone in this Committee believes that it will be a last resort. From the briefings that all noble Lords—including, I am sure, the Minister—have had from all sides, we know that the backstop is likely to be triggered very early on by the regulator. I really hope the Minister can move from what we hoped might be the position to where I think we are, whether we like it or not, and look at these processes on the basis of what is likely to happen. This could be one of the first things that the regulator has to deal with.
We have heard concerns about the nature of the conversations and the way that those might set up leagues against one another. I know that the Minister would hope that it was a last resort, as I think we all did, but I urge her to accept that if we are being genuinely honest—and other noble Lords may have heard differently from the various leagues we have all been speaking to—it seems to be a view that this is likely to happen. It would be much more helpful for our discussions if we could stop saying, “It’s a last resort”, and accept that it is very likely to happen quicker than we all wanted.
I appreciate that the noble Baroness, Lady Evans, may take a different view and I completely understand people’s concerns that it will be a front-stop—as a spoiler alert, and with apologies to my noble friend, I am not going to accept these amendments; we will come to that in a moment. However, we genuinely think that the model we have established is very similar, apart from the possible inclusion of the parachute payment—for want of a better word; it is not the phrase used in the Bill, but that escapes me for a moment—should the “state of the game” report suggest to the regulator that it needs to allow that to be taken into account.
My view is that the model we have presented should incentivise the leagues and the parties to come to an agreement themselves, and that opportunity to do so does not go away once the regulator is established. That is the design of the model and an essential part of it, as it was in the previous iteration of the Bill, so this is absolutely intended as a backstop process. We can go on to debate that in later groups as well as in this group. I am happy to do that and to meet people individually to go through why we think this will be a backstop and not a front-stop whereby the minute the regulator sets off in motion, everybody will claim that they want to have the backstop triggered.
However, there are things that the regulator will need to take into account if somebody asks for the backstop process to be triggered. It is not the necessarily the case that the regulator would have to accept that that process was set in motion. The whole model is designed around the principle of trying to get people to come to an agreement themselves. It is really important to ensure—
I thank the Minister for giving way. If she was right, we would have a deal in place by now. This has been the model for two years, so it is definitely a barrier to conversations. There is a view that whatever the Premier League agrees with the Football League, that, in effect, becomes its insurance policy. It then triggers the backstop and goes straight to the regulator, knowing that it will never get less than it has been offered and could get more. We will be in a perpetually revolving door of triggering mechanisms that will never give any club any certainty of its income, which will be very dangerous and very bad for football.
It is important for us to go through how the regulator’s backstop powers and power of last resort would work. I appreciate that the noble Baroness is entirely right that an agreement has not come into place, and that might be—or might not be—because of people waiting to see what form the regulator takes and the exact iteration of the wide range of views we have heard tonight and on previous occasions.
If, under the Government’s intended model for the backstop, the relevant leagues cannot reach an agreement, they can apply to trigger the backstop—the noble Baroness is quite right on that. If certain high thresholds are met, of which the regulator must be satisfied, the backstop can be triggered, but let me go through what would happen first: the relevant leagues would enter a period of mediation and, if there was still no agreement, they would move to a final proposal stage.
I thank the Minister for allowing me to intervene. Rick Parry went before the Select Committee and said he would trigger the backstop in any event—even if he got more money from the Premier League in the meantime—because there is no risk to the EFL in the backstop.
I am not going to comment on what people did or did not say in that committee meeting at this point. The backstop would be applied only if certain high thresholds were met. The regulator will be an independent regulator and it will have strict measures to meet—high thresholds which it must be satisfied of if the backstop is to be triggered. If there is still no agreement, the parties will move to a final proposal stage and, at that point, the regulator would convene an independent expert panel and invite final proposals from both relevant leagues with accompanying analysis, and the independent expert panel would choose the most appropriate proposal. This model incentivises both parties to compromise, as unreasonable proposals would not be chosen.
The whole model, which is almost identical in every detail to how the previous Government were planning to do this, is intended—
The Minister keeps coming back to the previous model. I think most of us here thought the previous model was nuts, and we still think it is nuts. We never discussed this in the House, so to keep saying that is quite insulting to quite a lot of us who always thought this was a bad idea. We are trying to engage with the Minister now about why we think it is a bad idea, and we would really like her to talk about the detail rather than keep saying, “Well, it was your Government”. Honestly, I would never have voted for this beforehand and, in my ex-position, that would have probably been quite a bad thing, but I am sorry, I would not have done so. I would like the Minister to focus on what we are talking about rather than keep using those issues to deflect from getting into the detail.
I am not sure how many times I have said that this evening, but it is really not very many. I am trying to establish that this model has been worked on and discussed for some time. I appreciate that noble Lords in this House did not get the opportunity to discuss it under the previous Government. It is a model that has been worked through, with examples from different organisations. It encourages compromise and tries to get people to reach a deal that everybody can work through and which meets the criteria of the regulator.
A model which creates tension does not get it right. We have already heard from Rick Parry that he would trigger it immediately. This is a model that does not work. We are trying to say to the Minister that Committee is an opportunity to take it away and rethink it. It really does not stack up to be a successful model for the future of English football.
Simply because one individual says that they would want to trigger it does not mean that the regulator would view the condition as being met.
With respect to the Minister, it was not just a random individual; it was a really significant player in the whole scheme of what we are talking about here.
I appreciate the noble Lord’s point, but if the EFL triggers the backstop or makes a proposal in bad faith, it could end up worse off if the Premier League’s proposal is more reasonable, so this does not encourage the EFL or Premier League to be confrontation or divisive. I am sure we will come back to this at a later stage, probably this evening, but definitely when we come back in the new year on Report.
I am really happy to sit down with noble Lords and talk this through, but I will continue to use my speaking notes for some time and then, I hope, give some reassurance that we are considering this carefully. I am always happy to meet with noble Lords, as is the team that has been working on this. As noble Lords are aware, a number of the officials working on this have been doing so right the way through from the fan-led review, so this is a really good example of the consistency of advice both to this Government and the previous Government, notwithstanding the fact that not everybody here liked the Bill’s previous iteration.
To return to my speaking notes—although I am fairly sure I have got slightly out of order now—we think that this approach encourages future collaboration. We might need to agree to disagree on that point and come back to that debate.
The Minister says that she believes that the mechanism will deliver collaboration. For my benefit, please could she name a single example of a binding final offer process working in UK regulatory terms, and its use in the UK to deliver the outcomes she is talking about?
The Competition and Markets Authority has used it.
The process proposed by this group of amendments, excluding Amendment 260, would allow the regulator to intervene at its discretion and would require it to take into account the potential use of any revenue distributed. It is the Government’s view that this is regulatory overreach and a fundamental change to the intent of the process as drafted.
The other amendments from my noble friends Lord Bassam and Lady Taylor seek to change the structure of the backstop process from a two-party mediation and final proposal/order process to one that could apply to any number of relevant parties. I understand the overall intent of these amendments and have chosen to address them as a group to ensure that that intent is understood comprehensively, and that the Government’s position is in turn communicated coherently.
To clarify, the Premier League, the English Football League and the National League can all apply to trigger the backstop process. Any of the specified competition organisers can submit an application to trigger the process, and simultaneous instances of the backstop process could be triggered to cover the relationships between each of the leagues. The process is inherently designed as a two-party process. Fundamentally, distribution agreements are agreed between two individual leagues and the process is designed to facilitate these agreements. As the final offer process is set up and designed between two parties to facilitate a decision between two proposals on the basis of relevant principles, it would not be effective for the regulator to engage in this process with more than two parties. This is also, in part, why it would not be appropriate for the regulator to make a third offer. Without the incentive of the two-proposal process, parties are likely to stay at polarised positions, rather than find areas for compromise. However, when the two proposals submitted are the only choices, the pragmatic decision is to submit the most reasonable proposal possible. This is the incentive we wish to create.
I now turn to Amendments 292, 296 and 314, tabled by my noble friends Lord Bassam and Lady Taylor of Bolton. While there is a slight difference between “special” and “compelling”, we are satisfied that the bar is set sufficiently high with the use of “special”, which is the more usual terminology in these sorts of provisions. There is likely to be no tangible difference in outcomes, and therefore these amendments would be minor, insignificant changes to the wording of the Bill. As such, the Government believe the current drafting is sufficient. This is also the case for Amendment 264. While we understand the intent behind this amendment, we are content that the current drafting in the Bill sufficiently captures all revenue relevant for consideration during the backstop process. The proposed drafting change would not capture any revenue sources not already captured by the existing wording.
I turn now to Amendments 261, 262, 276 and 315. Amendment 276 seeks to significantly broaden one of the conditions by which the backstop process could be triggered. Condition 2 is specifically designed to be triggered by a material reduction in relevant revenue, as this poses a significant threat to the financial sustainability of the pyramid. Amendment 315 would, if the distribution process was ended due to incomplete or inconsistent proposals, require the regulator to issue a distribution order based on its expert panel’s own proposal, rather than ending the process. This would prevent the regulator ending the final proposal stage without an order, even if both leagues have chosen not to submit proposals.
These amendments, and the others referenced, would increase the likelihood of an enforced rather than an agreed solution. The Government’s preference is for an industry-led solution. It is our view that the regulator should have a role in facilitating the final proposal process only where no agreement can be reached on distribution, and that the process should be the least interventionist it can be while remaining effective. This approach encourages future collaboration and prevents the leagues relying too heavily on the regulator in the future.
I turn now to Amendments 284 and 286. While I agree that the state of the game report is a usual source of information to be considered as part of the distribution agreement process, it is our position that these amendments are unnecessarily prescriptive. As it stands, the Bill does not make specific reference to the report being included as a potential question for consideration. However, the existing drafting does not in any way exclude consideration of the state of the game report, and the regulator must have regard to it as part of its general duties. I would expect the state of the game report to be considered by both the leagues applying to trigger the backstop process, and the regulator, given its relevance. However, to include this expectation beyond what is already set out in primary legislation would be inflexible.
Turning to Amendment 267, while the Government understand the broader intention to involve fans in as many areas of the Bill as possible, it would not be appropriate for the regulator to be mandated to consult a group which is neither directly financially involved nor a governing body. This is not to say that fans should not make their views known to the regulator, and there will be many instances, such as in the state of the game consultation, where we expect the regulator to be able to consider a number of perspectives. This includes the views of fans on the financial situation in English football. Furthermore, the proposed drafting requiring consultation with representatives of regulated clubs is duplicative, given that the Bill as drafted already requires the consultation of the leagues.
Finally, Amendment 319 seeks to remove the provision that explicitly outlines that leagues can come to an alternative agreement at any time in the backstop process. The ability of leagues to come to an agreement independently has been protected in the legislation itself intentionally, to highlight that an industry-led solution is both preferred and encouraged. We believe this explicit protection will encourage the leagues to reconsider at every step of the process whether regulatory intervention is necessary, ideally bringing them closer to an independent agreement that works for all of football.
I hope that my responses have reassured my noble friends and other noble Lords that the Government’s approach is appropriate and provides the necessary protections, and that my noble friends will not press their amendments.
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Markham, rumbled me early on in his comments when he worked out that these were probing amendments; that is what they were intended to be. The group is disparate—I did not author it; it was what we were handed. It has been useful because it has enabled me to hear from the Minister how she sees the regulatory arrangements working as far as distribution is concerned, and the extent of the regulator’s flexibility.
I did not make this observation in my opening remarks but I think—the Minister covered this point—that the “state of the game” report will be critical when the regulator gets to grips with the distribution. The distribution of the revenues will be most important, because that is designed to make the game sustainable, to make sure that clubs do not go into administration, that we do not have clubs paying more than they actually earn in revenues, and so that clubs do not get to the point where they cannot properly trade. That is the most important thing for me.
Although I appreciate that my amendments would appear to some to be a bit of regulatory overkill, I think the point was made that we need to make sure that the regulator can do its job properly. The Premier League should not be at all threatened by the powers that the regulator has. Given the amount of money there is in the game and the continuing success of the Premier League—and, for that matter, the Championship —the regulator should be able to get our national game to the point where it is much more financially in balance and there are not the big gaps and distortions in revenue distribution throughout the pyramid.
I thank the Minister for what she said. Obviously, I shall study it very carefully. I think it unlikely that I shall return to these issues on Report, but obviously I will look at it very carefully before we come to that point. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 263 is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Parkinson. Going on from the last debate, it talks about probably one of the most important elements in the whole make-up of the financial payment system: parachute payments. The amendment seeks to remove from the regulator the powers to impact or change those parachute payments.
The reason for that is that parachute payments are a very common feature—I understand that just about all European leagues have parachute payments—and that is for a very simple reason. Any club that gets promoted is automatically in a situation where financially, it has a lot less money than other clubs in the Premier League or whichever higher division it is—parachute payments happen right the way through the pyramid—and they need to invest. They need to do that if they are to have any opportunity, any chance, to compete. If they do not invest, it is pretty likely that they will get relegated again straightaway, and any games that they take part in will be pretty uncompetitive and not very interesting to watch. But how do you get them to invest when they know that there is a decent chance that they will get relegated straightaway and go back to a situation where they have a lot less income?
Of course, as I say, the common mechanism that all the leagues across Europe seek to put in place is the safety net of a parachute payment, so that clubs know that for a period of time—three years—they have that safety net, particularly in years one or two, because in the third year it falls away quite quickly from that.
However, it is not just as a key measure for promoted clubs. Right now, if you are a Wolves fan and you are sitting second from bottom, what do you want them to do? You want them to sack their manager—they have done that; it cost them quite a bit to do that in terms of pay-offs and attracting a new manager—and you want them to invest in the January transfer window to get more players, to give them a chance of staying up for the rest of the season. That is the absolutely normal thing that you would expect them to do.
That is what you want the whole Premier League to be doing: you want the teams to be really fighting to survive and competing in every game. That is what makes the game so interesting to watch. A lot of the fun towards the end of the season, when you know—maybe not this season—that Man City is going to win it again, or whatever, it gets really interesting around the bottom of the league. Why is it interesting? It is because those clubs still invest. So Wolves will no doubt invest in this window and a lot of the bottom clubs, which might be looking over their shoulder, worried about relegation, will invest. They will do that because they have the safety net of the parachute payments.
My Lords, I support Amendment 263 in the name of my noble friend Lord Markham, which seeks to exclude parachute payments—the financial lifeline provided to relegated clubs—from the definition of “relevant revenue” under the backstop. This amendment is essential to addressing the profound risk created by the current drafting of the Bill.
Parachute payments are not just a feature of football finance, they are a key part of the scaffolding that delivers the competitiveness, the investability and the financial sustainability of the English football ecosystem. Without them, relegation would become a financial free-for-all—a cliff edge that would devastate many clubs and their communities. Parachute payments are designed to manage the significant financial shock of relegation, where clubs can lose enormous amounts of revenue almost overnight, yet their overheads stay the same.
I speak from some personal experience here. At West Ham United, we have known the daunting realities of relegation. Without parachute payments, the response in 2011 would have been wholesale disinvestment, a disorderly fire sale of players, job cuts, and a complete halt to critical investments in infrastructure. That is exactly how clubs start to spiral. Parachute payments do not come close to eliminating the pain of relegation but they provide some breathing space to make difficult but measured adjustments.
Yet this Bill places the very existence of parachute payments on the table, making them a part of the binary backstop process that pits two competing visions of football finance against one another. This is an intolerable risk. The EFL has been explicit that its proposal in this process would be for massive reductions in parachute payments, based on the argument that the financial gap between the Premier League and the Championship should be closed. But this argument fundamentally misunderstands the problem. The central issue here is not the gap itself, which reflects the commercial realities of two very different leagues, but whether clubs can transition effectively between those levels, between those two leagues.
Here the evidence is clear. Parachute payments work. If they did not exist, you would simply have to invent them. Crucially, parachute payments do not lock up promotion opportunities. Look no further than the examples of Luton Town and Ipswich Town from each of the last two years. Well-run, innovative clubs have every chance of success in the Championship, which is a highly competitive and appealing league.
Parachutes are not a significant distortion but a significant stabiliser, providing clubs with the tools to manage transition responsibly and sustainably. The EFL’s proposal is essentially to level down the Premier League to meet the Championship; to stretch out the bottom half of the Premier League. But that would destroy the top-to-bottom competitiveness that makes the Premier League the most watched and admired league in the world. Enabling such a proposal, as this Bill now does, expressly privileges the Championship over the Premier League. That is an astonishing position to take. It risks reducing the quality of the game at the top of the pyramid and undermining the ability of clubs to compete both domestically and internationally.
Let us also consider the impact on investment. Investors are rational. They are drawn to football because of its structures, parachute payments central among them, that provide clear pathways for responsible investment and sustainable growth. Without parachute payments, the Championship clubs become less investable. Why would anyone seriously invest in a club that cannot make the financial journey to the Premier League without risking complete collapse on relegation? The logic of the previous Bill was that, if there are challenges with parachute payments—challenges that the Government’s state of the game review may or may not identify—these can be addressed through increased solidarity payments. The exclusion of parachute payments in the previous Bill meant that the very existence of parachute payments was not placed at risk. It recognised the critical value of parachute payments to protect their role in managing these vital transitions. But now parachute payments are suddenly on the table. It is a hugely significant change of policy.
I know that the Minister would prefer that I should refrain from pointing this out, but the process by which this expanded backstop mechanism has been introduced has been alarmingly inadequate. As we know, the Secretary of State held just one 30-minute meeting with seven hand-picked Premier League clubs between July and October. The backstop was one of the many things that were discussed at the meeting, but at no time during the meeting were we given any warning that this decision was even being considered, let alone added to the Bill. Those seven clubs wrote to the Secretary of State following the meeting, which was five or six months ago, and we still have not had a reply. We also know that UEFA explicitly advised Ministers to reconsider the previous mechanism before parachute payments were even included. But, instead of narrowing the scope, the Government have significantly broadened it. I ask again: why? Parachute payments do not create financial irresponsibility. They are its enemy. They do not distort competitiveness; they enable it.
If you are Championship club newly promoted into the Premier League, you need to know that you can invest in your team to give you any chance to be competitive and to stay there. Clubs invest when they are promoted only because they know that they can rely on the parachute payment to cover some of the investments they have made in order to be competitive in the Premier league. Those investments are almost always in transfer fees and players’ wages. Clubs need that parachute to cover those things if they are relegated. If you do not have a parachute payment to soften the blow, you know that you cannot make the necessary investment in your team and in transfer fees when you get into the Premier League to try to stay there. You know your team will not be competitive enough, because you know that, if you are relegated without a parachute payment, you will face the real risk of administration.
Parachute payments help soften the blow. Without them, you cannot cut your overheads in any way, because there is no cause to terminate players’ contracts—that is part of the PFA agreement. So this means that, if you get promoted into the Premier League knowing you cannot contribute to the competitiveness of the Premier League—the idea that on any day any club can beat any other—you are going to affect the competitiveness and the global appeal of the Premier League, as my noble friend Lord Markham said, but, most of all, you are going to damage your own club.
Parachute payments do not reward failure. They allow clubs to recover, rebuild and stay financially sustainable. Frankly, I think that is the whole purpose of Bill. So I urge the Government to reconsider and to protect the stability of the football ecosystem, protect the ability of clubs to manage the transition between leagues responsibly, and protect the investment in both the Premier League and the Championship, which make English football the global success story that it is today.
My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow my noble friend Lady Brady, who speaks with passion and deep expertise. I support this amendment.
I suspect I am not the only football supporter sitting in your Lordships’ House who had never heard of parachute payments until I started to get my head around the Bill. It took me a little time to get my head around the concept. I have listened very carefully to, and interrogated, the arguments for it, and understand them. The essence seems to me that it is simply a fact—an irrefutable fact and not readily to be changed—that there is a huge gulf in the financial rewards that come to a club in the Premier League compared with one that is in the Championship. One might regret that, but the only way you could possibly change it would be, as my noble friend said, by levelling down and reducing the competitive tension that there is in the Premier League.
The arguments that my noble friends Lord Markham and Lady Brady made about how parachute payments can narrow the gulf between Premier League and Championship are powerful and compelling. But the truth is that, without the ability for clubs that have been promoted to invest to become competitive, you would not have the competitive tension within the Premier League that is part of what makes it so successful. We have said repeatedly, but it bears repeating, that the Premier League is the goose that lays the golden eggs that reward the rest of the pyramid. If we damage that, we inflict damage not just on the Premier League but on the whole of English football, and that is what we have to be incredibly careful of.
There is a high degree of mobility within the Premier League. I say this with regret as a supporter of a club that is always regarded as in the top six but is languishing —temporarily, I hasten to say—in 10th. It is, as we know, the hope that kills you, not the despair. Nottingham Forest were promoted two or three seasons ago and are now fourth in the Premier League, in a Champions League spot—there is strong mobility. Could they have done that without the confidence to be able to invest and to grow the team and the players? This is part of the magic of it, and to suggest that this is somehow a game and a racket and that it should be put in jeopardy is not to understand the magic of a degree of competitiveness that exists in English football all the way through the pyramid.
This is something that the clubs and leagues have themselves come up with, and it is something that works. The idea—frankly, this thought applies to quite a lot of what the Bill is about—that what has worked and been proven to work will somehow suddenly be improved by the introduction of a state regulator might turn out to be true, but all the evidence of history suggests that it will not.
I support Amendment 263 and declare an interest as a supporter of Norwich City, who, over a number of seasons, endured the pain of relegation and then the joy of promotion on a regular basis. So, unlike my noble friend Lord Maude, I am well aware of the benefits of parachute payments, although unfortunately not for a few seasons now.
As we have heard, parachute payments are a critical foundation for the competitiveness of the Premier League. They help clubs manage the financial impact relegation from the Premier League can cause and give a degree of stability at a time of significant challenge to allow them to adjust to their new financial and footballing reality. That is true of all clubs. Well-run clubs like Norwich City could not have survived, even with the benevolent owners they had, without the benefit of a parachute payment. A parachute payment does not, however, in any way ensure that clubs continually go up to the Premier League, as, unfortunately, the last few seasons for Norwich City have shown.
I am sure a number of noble Lords will have seen the letter from Cliff Crown, chairman of Brentford FC, who said:
“For Brentford FC the parachute payment model provided an essential safety net, enabling us to invest in the team and infrastructure when we secured promotion. This support was pivotal in ensuring we could compete effectively and establish ourselves in the Premier League.”.
Like other noble Lords, I am concerned that the Bill as it stands may inadvertently incentivise bottom-half Premier League clubs and Championship clubs seeking promotion to significantly curb their investment over time, given the greater risk relegation would undoubtedly present. As my noble friend Lady Brady said, relegation would become a real financial cliff edge that would see clubs lose enormous amounts of revenue overnight, while having to continue to cover the costs predicated on their involvement in the Premier League. If that were to happen, the competitiveness of the Premier League would be severely weakened, and I believe the Championship would be significantly weakened too, undermining the very attributes that attract the revenues that sustain the game.
I urge the Minister to look again at this issue and to carefully consider the concerns raised in our discussions today. In particular, if she has not already done so, I urge her to talk to the clubs whose first-hand experience of the stabilising effects of parachute payments surely must be central to any discussion of this issue. I really hope that their experience will not be dismissed out of hand.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Markham, for this amendment and all noble Lords who have taken part with a degree of passion that shows their commitment to the game and to the legislative scrutiny process.
First, I acknowledge that all noble Lords—I include myself in this—agree that parachute payments are a significant part of football’s financial landscape. I reassure noble Lords that the Government recognise that they play an important role in supporting the survival of relegated clubs. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, that they can provide a lifeline. However, the regulator needs to be able to consider all relevant revenue sources as part of the backstop process to get an accurate picture of the proposal’s impact on financial sustainability. That is why parachute payments have not been excluded in this Bill’s definition of relevant revenue.
We believe that allowing the regulator to make a more informed decision, rather than restricting what it can consider, will only help to achieve the best possible outcome for the future of the game. Notably, parachute payments will be reviewed as part of the process only if the regulator deems them a relevant consideration. The current drafting does not require that parachute payments be considered; it allows them to be so only if they are deemed relevant by the regulator. So, if it agrees with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Markham, based on the state of the game report, it will act accordingly. What that means in practice—
The Minister talks about the state of the game report, which I completely agree is going to be extremely important, but the fact of the matter is that the backstop could be triggered before the state of the game report is published. From what I remember, it is quite a long time before it needs to be published. It could be that both leagues—the EFL and the Premier League, or whoever—will trigger the backstop before that, so parachute payments will be included. Unfortunately, the state of the game report may have no impact whatever on an initial decision by the regulator. The timescales simply do not work. I am not expecting a particular answer today, as the Minister can well say that she is not in charge of the regulator, but it is important to note that the timing of these things does not necessarily tie up, so unfortunately, reassurances like that are not really reassurances.
Clearly, it does not need to wait for the state of the game report to decide whether they are relevant. The approach we have adopted in the Bill means in practice that if the regulator has clear evidence, whether from a different source or from the state of the game report, that parachute payments are causing sustainability issues to the wider pyramid, it will now be able to address them. In our view, this was a potentially serious gap in the legislation that we feel has now been rectified. I stress “potential”.
What the Minister said would be fine if the regulator was making a balanced determination, but because the Government have created a binary process whereby one proposal can be accepted, it could choose to abolish them. The Government have created that risk, and it is an intolerable risk.
We went through in quite a lot of detail how the backstop mechanism would be triggered. I know we have more to come, as the noble Lord, Lord Maude, said, but in my view, it is not unreasonable for the regulator to be able to consider them. However, the regulator does not need to consider them.
On the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Brady —clubs and planning, and how they can deal with their financial future if parachute payments could change as part of the backstop process—while the Government understand the desire to ensure that regulated clubs have as much time to adjust to change as possible, we acknowledge that significant time has already passed without a financial distribution agreement. Ensuring a timely and satisfactory agreement is in the interests of football and the wider public. The backstop process is a built-in transition period specifying that parachute payments cannot be reduced within one year of the distribution order coming into effect.
We understand concerns around the future of clubs that may already have factored parachute payments into their forward-looking financial planning before a potential order that could lower payments had been issued. We would expect the leagues to maintain effective communication with clubs throughout the backstop process, which, alongside the built-in transitory provision, will mean that clubs should have ample time to adjust if parachute payments are deemed in scope. There will not be any sudden reduction in payments without warning. I feel that that should provide some reassurance to noble Lords and to the clubs.
On the definition of relevant revenue, football is a fast-paced industry, so it would be erroneous to assume that the definition of relevant revenue might not need to change. If broadcast revenue ceases to be the primary source of revenue stream in the game, the definition would need to be amended to ensure the process remained a viable regulatory intervention. Furthermore, there are already significant safeguards in place to ensure that this power is not used incorrectly. For example, consultation with the regulator, the Football Association and specified competition organisations is required before the power can be utilised.
With noble Lords’ indulgence, I want to say a bit about the consultation process. On a number of occasions it has been stated in your Lordships’ House that there has been insufficient consultation. Particularly in response to a point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, I want to put on the record that this Football Governance Bill is the culmination of years of work, including a huge amount of consultation. During that time, there has been extensive regular engagement with key stakeholders, including clubs that will be subject to the regulation. All clubs have been provided with a number of formal opportunities to share their views, particularly as part of the fan-led review and the formal consultation process on the football governance White Paper, where all 116 clubs in the top five leagues at the time were invited to give their views on the proposals. Over that period, DCMS Ministers and officials have had many hundreds of meetings with clubs, leagues, fan groups and other stakeholders from across football, and we continue to engage with the industry now, so this number is constantly growing.
Clubs have had five years to write to or meet DCMS to make their position known. No club that has requested a meeting has not had one. Indeed, some Premier League clubs were recently invited to meet officials and turned down the invitation, which I stress is their right. We have met and continue to meet a range of clubs, at all levels of the football pyramid, that will be subject to regulation.
The leagues have a role to play here. We would expect them to support their clubs in their understanding of the development of the regime and in their engagement with the Government, as well as to keep their clubs updated on any engagement that the leagues have had with the Government. Indeed, this is what has been explicitly asked of us at times by some of the leagues. Richard Masters, the CEO of the Premier League, Rick Parry, chair of the EFL, and Kevin Miles, CEO of the Football Supporters’ Association, have all praised the Government’s constructive approach to engagement with the clubs and the leagues.
This is not the end of the process or of the consultation. There are still lots of opportunities for clubs to have their say as the legislation passes through Parliament and work continues to establish the regulator. Even once the regulator is established, its approach will be advocacy first, aiming to work constructively with clubs on an ongoing basis to resolve issues wherever it can.
I have asked for an answer to the noble Baroness’s question about the response to the letter, and I will have to revert to her after the debate. Given the lateness of the evening, I have not been able to get a response on that.
Is that the letter I sent on 2 December about UEFA or the letter that the seven clubs sent to the Secretary of State to which she is going to reply? Maybe the Minister can tell me that afterwards.
It is a statement of fact that the Secretary of State has met only seven clubs for half an hour. I am not talking about other officials. I have to say that there was zero consultation on including parachute payments in the Bill. There may have been other meetings, but between the two Bills that was a significant change that has caused lots of difficult conversations within the leagues.
The Minister said that there was no deal in place. There is a deal; it has been in place between the Premier League and the EFL since 2018, and it has a three-year notice period—just so she knows.
I will have to get back to the noble Baroness on the letter she said was sent by the Premier League following that meeting. Officials have not been able to get in touch with the correspondence team given the lateness of the evening, but we will endeavour to chase that up tomorrow.
I am aware that there is a deal in place. One of the issues raised during the debate this evening has been the inability to reach a new deal. I hope that, at some point soon, the various parties will come to an agreement without us having to trigger the backstop. My main point was that simply referring to one meeting maybe gave the wrong impression of the extent of the consultation. I have spoken to officials who themselves have had more than 100 meetings with the Premier League. To me, that sounds like ongoing dialogue rather than consultation. However, we may need to pick that up outside this Committee.
In the spirit of trying to be helpful, and given that Clause 56 is a Henry VIII clause, would the Minister look favourably, potentially on Report, at bringing forward a government amendment which tightens up the wording of Clause 56(2)? Very strong feelings have been enunciated today by my noble friends around parachute payments. It is incumbent on the Minister to acknowledge that and perhaps come back on Report with government amendments that reflect that.
The noble Lord may not be surprised to know that I am not going to commit to doing that. We believe that the model in the Bill is the correct one. I am happy to meet the noble Lord and others to discuss this before Report, However, on the basis of the arguments I have made this evening, I urge the noble Lord, Lord Markham, to withdraw his amendment.
I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. We can all agree that everyone spoke with passion on this point. We are passionate because we know it really matters.
I am grateful to the Minister for her acknowledgement of the importance of parachute payments. They really are critical. I echo the point made by my noble friend Lady Brady that, since parachute payments were brought into this, my understanding is that there has been only a 30-minute meeting with the clubs, where this was barely brought up. I urge the Minister to consult more with the clubs.
I asked officials to draw up the words that I said on consultation because, night after night, group after group, it has been said to me that there has been insufficient consultation on the Bill. I went back and asked whether I could stand up and say that there has been sufficient consultation on the Bill. What consultation happened? When has it happened? How has it happened? Who has it been with? I am confident there has been a huge amount of consultation on the Bill and I will continue to state that when I am asked. I will follow up things that people feel have not been followed up, but any club that wanted to have a meeting has had one, and some have said they did not want one. I will sit down and allow the noble Lord to finish, but I am not going to accept that there has not been sufficient consultation.
I am sorry to intervene, but I want to say again that on the specific issue of parachute payments there was no consultation with either the Premier League officials or the Premier League clubs that attended that meeting before this went into the Bill. I am not saying that there was not consultation on other areas, but this is a significant change to the Bill that had zero consultation with the Premier League or Premier League officials.
It may be that it should be a matter of fact and we can find out one way or the other. The question is: how much consultation has happened specifically on the parachute payments? Obviously, they have been a recent introduction. My understanding from my noble friend is that there was just that 30-minute meeting, at which this was barely raised. I would be grateful if the Minister could ask her officials directly.
I will intervene again, and I thank the noble Lord for giving way. Labour tabled an amendment on this in opposition, so I am surprised that there seems to be so much surprise that the Government have now put this in the legislation. I accept that perhaps it was not noted at the time.
The Minister will also know that Labour tabled a lot of amendments, many of which we are also now pushing, but are told they are not going to be considered. So, yes, but equally perhaps the Minister might like to look through all the amendments tabled by her colleagues in the Labour Party in the other House and see whether she is now prepared to accept them all.
I hope we can move constructively on this point. I welcome the Minister’s undertaking to give clubs as much time as they request. I appreciate the amount of time the Minister has given all of us in all this. It feels that that may be a point worth taking forward, particularly on parachute payments.
To my mind, the biggest proof on all of this is the fact that 51 of the 92 clubs in the whole pyramid have been in the Premier League at some point. That is way over half. That speaks to how fluid the system is and how much it is working. Over half the clubs have spent some time in the Premier League. To me that speaks volumes. That is the biggest concern I have. We have a system that works; we have competition throughout the pyramid. The real fear from all my noble friends who have spoken on this, and why we speak with such passion, is the fact that we endanger all of that. I will withdraw my amendment.
This goes to the principle of the redistribution amendments in the group. We have had two debates on this; I hope this will be the hat trick, so to speak, because it is talking about the general principle of whether the regulator should be involved in the redistribution of revenue. This goes to the whole of Part 6—Clauses 56 to 60—and stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Parkinson.
As noble Lords have heard me say before, what it comes down to is that no other regulator—and I am still ready to stand corrected—is given powers to take money from one part of the system and give it to another. The FCA cannot take money from Barclays and give it to NatWest; Ofwat cannot take it from Severn Trent to go to Thames; Ofcom cannot move money from ITV to Channel 4. No other regulator can do that. It is unheard of. But that is what we are proposing here.
No, I do not agree that is the point of the Bill. That is the fundamental difference. I would totally agree that there are certain protections about the European super league, about moving home grounds, as in the case of MK Dons, and about fit and proper owner tests. I would agree they are very good roles for a regulator to play. What I do not agree with is giving a regulator unparallelled power to take money from one part of the sector and give it to another.
What are we trying to do here? Is the English Football League impoverished? Does it have so little money it cannot run itself? We know the answer to that is no. It recently had a very good Sky deal. The Championship is the sixth-richest league in the world. That point has been made before. We are saying that Belgium, the Netherlands and Portugal, which are very good footballing nations, and all the other leagues in the world apart from the top six, all manage to live on less money than the Championship. But we are saying we need to fix that. That is what I do not understand. We are trying to say we will give unparallelled power to try to fix a situation that has had unparallelled success and makes the Championship the sixth-richest league in the world. We cannot argue that is because clubs do not have enough money to be viable in that. If that was the case in the Championship, how do the Portuguese league, the Belgian league, the Netherlands league and all the other leagues cope? This is not an area I believe the regulator should be intervening in. There is no market failure there.
What I have heard noble Lords speak about a lot is fairness or narrowing the gap. Well, I am sorry, but competition and sport are not about fairness, not about trying to narrow the gap or level down. We are not trying to equalise. The whole point of sport is that it is the most competitive thing out there. There is nothing more competitive than a game of sport. That is the whole lesson. It is not about trying to equalise. It is about winning and losing. What football has done is create that very successfully, with great fluidity. As I mentioned in the last debate, over half of clubs at some stage have succeeded in getting into the Premier League. This is something that is working. I do not see any evidence of market failure. So why are we asking the regulator to get involved in all this?
I truly believe we will endanger the whole game and the whole income. Noble Lords have heard me say before: let us maximise the size of the cake before we argue how we distribute it. I fear here that by trying to equalise and level down, all we will do is make the games less interesting, the league less competitive, which will mean fewer people watching, less TV rights money and the result being less money to distribute. That is why I do not believe this is the role of the regulator to take, and this is why I feel strongly that all those clauses that seek to give this unprecedented power should be removed.
My Lords, I find my noble friend’s arguments very persuasive, and I will ask just one question. I do not know what the answer is, so others who know much more about this will correct me if I am wrong. My understanding is that no one made the Premier League make the already unprecedentedly large distribution from it down to the EFL. There was no regulator or Prime Minister threatening legislation that forced that to happen. It was because the Premier League saw it as in its interest to have a strong pyramid. It did not see this as “us against them”; it wanted competition within the pyramid but not between the segments and the different layers. I therefore question the idea that you somehow have to force a better distribution when it is plainly in the Premier League’s interest—and the way it has historically behaved illustrates that it understands that it is—to commit, through a voluntary agreed distribution, to the money trickling and cascading down through the pyramid. That illustrates that this is not necessary.
The danger is that the money that is creamed off by the regulator to sustain it—and is drained off from the clubs to comply with its demands—will mean that there is less to distribute. That money is already efficiently and pretty fairly distributed by agreement, so I am persuaded by my noble friend’s arguments that this part of the Bill is not only unnecessary but potentially very harmful.
My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 271, 307 and 316 in this group. My noble friend Lord Maude is right: the Premier League’s distribution outside our ecosystem is the highest amount of money of any other sporting competition in the world, and no regulator has forced the Premier League to do that.
My amendments seek to embed principles into the backstop mechanism. My aim in doing so is to ensure that it operates in a way that is proportionate, legally defensible and fit for purpose. At the heart of the amendments lies a simple but critical idea: any intervention by the IFR on this issue must be guided by clear, fair and transparent principles.
The backstop mechanism in its current form lacks sufficient criteria to direct the IFR in exercising its powers. It dictates that the IFR must choose the proposal that is “more consistent” with its principles. But what are those principles? The first is to “advance the IFR’s objectives”, and we have already discussed at great length how nebulous those objectives are. The second is not to place any “undue burden” on the parties’ commercial interests. The third is to ensure that relegated clubs have a one-year transition for any changes to parachute payments. That is it. There is no other guidance for the regulator in making this enormous and binary choice. This is quite incredible, and it creates huge risks, not only for the clubs and the leagues but, more importantly, for the very integrity of the regulatory process itself.
Let me begin with a fundamental principle of protecting property and contractual rights. It is vital to understand that the revenues subject to redistribution under the backstop are not collective funds but revenues generated solely by the Premier League and the Premier League clubs. So the backstop is not a neutral act; it is interference in the property rights of Premier League clubs only.
Under Article 1 of Protocol 1 in the Human Rights Act—A1P1—any interference with those rights must therefore be justified on clear and compelling public policy grounds, and adhere to principles of proportionality and necessity. There are concerns that this crude mechanism, with so few transparent criteria, is legally challengeable under A1P1, even more so now as a result of parachute payments being included, and that is not a good thing; it is in everybody’s interests for this backstop to be legally defensible. But without robust principles to guide the IFR’s decision-making, any determination risks being challenged, leaving the IFR open to judicial review and the entire system mired in uncertainty and delay.
A1P1 case law also emphasises the principle that less intrusive measures must be considered before more significant interventions are imposed, so this is also enshrined in my proposed amendment. The backstop mechanism, as drafted, establishes a binary process that compels the IFR to choose between two competing proposals, but it provides no framework for the IFR to tend towards the least intrusive option, particularly in relation to respecting the Premier League’s property rights as the sole funder of financial redistribution. That is a very dangerous oversight.
Without explicit guidance to the IFR that it should tend towards the least intrusive measure, particularly in its treatment of Premier League revenues, there is a real risk that the backstop could lead to legal overreach. Including this principle in the Bill would provide the IFR with a clear steer, reflect the unique role of the Premier League as the funder of any distribution order and ensure that the mechanism operated in a way that respected property rights.
The principle of good faith is another cornerstone of these amendments. The binary nature of the backstop mechanism incentivises brinkmanship rather than genuine negotiation. These amendments seek to create a framework that rewards constructive engagement and discourages posturing. Without this principle, the backstop risks becoming a tool for division rather than collaboration.
Another critical safeguard in the amendments is the requirement that any backstop decision must not force clubs into breaching their own league’s or UEFA’s existing financial rules and covenants, including profit and sustainability rules or the IFR’s own licence. A sudden and drastic redistribution could reduce Premier League clubs’ revenues, which in turn could destabilise their own business plans, which in turn leads them to breach the profitability and sustainability rules in their own leagues. That would lead to fines, sanctions or even points deductions for Premier League clubs. It would be a remarkable irony if a mechanism intended to promote sustainability instead penalised clubs for failing to meet their own financial obligations.
Finally, let me address the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Maude, which would ensure that the backstop could not be used as a first resort. The IFR must first regulate clubs in the EFL to ensure that they are financially responsible and not conveniently reach for the Premier League’s revenues before it has even sought to impose those controls. If the IFR cannot deliver sustainability through its own regulatory tools, what confidence can we have in its ability to manage a redistributive mechanism fairly or effectively? My noble friend’s amendment rightly prioritises the use of all other tools before triggering the backstop.
These amendments would provide the IFR with the steers that it will desperately need to navigate one of the most consequential issues in football. Without these amendments, or something very similar, the backstop risks sinking into a legal and political quagmire. We should all be aligned in preventing that outcome, so I hope the Minister will listen carefully and sympathetically to these arguments.
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, and the noble Lord, Lord Maude of Horsham, for these amendments, and the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, for giving notice of his intention to oppose that Clauses 56 to 60 stand part of the Bill.
I will start with Amendments 271 and 316, from the noble Baroness, Lady Brady. I thank her for clearly stating some of her core concerns about the backstop process through these amendments and hope to reassure her that the existing drafting of the Bill already addresses her concerns without the need for this additional clause. First, I will cover her concern regarding the explanation of suitable alternative regulatory solutions when I address subsequent amendments. On her other concerns, current drafting of the Bill already requires the regulator to trigger the process only if its ability to advance its objectives would be threatened if it did not. Final proposals are already required to advance the regulator’s objective of ensuring financial sustainability and resilience. They also have to ensure that they do not place an undue burden on the commercial interests of either league. We have been mindful of property rights when designing the backstop, which is why the process can be triggered only in specific circumstances and why, even when the high threshold for triggering the process is met, commercial interests must still be considered. We consider this to be a suitably high bar to ensure that the regulator takes adequate consideration of regulated clubs’ property rights and commercial interests.
I understand that the noble Baroness is especially concerned about the issuing of a distribution order that may force clubs into non-compliance with the league’s own internal rules. We would expect the regulator’s decisions to be internally consistent in terms of advancing its objectives, so we cannot see a scenario where the regulator would issue a distribution order that required a club to become non-compliant with its licence conditions. However, there may need to be some adaptation by regulated clubs and competition organisers to renew the regulatory landscape.
If a distribution order issued to ensure the financial sustainability of football put a club at risk of breaching a league’s rules, we would expect competition organisers to work with the club in question and the regulator to understand the decision and its impact. Just as we may expect adaptation by clubs transitioning from unregulated to regulated, we may also expect to see the adaptation of competition organisers.
The amendment implies a scenario where a distribution order results in clubs becoming non-compliant with existing financial regulations. The regulator is already required, as part of its decision on whether to trigger the process, to consider whether the lack of arrangement has arisen as a result of bad faith. Therefore, we are confident that the existing drafting of the backstop proposal process is sufficient to ensure that the regulator already considers the factors outlined in this amendment.
I turn to Amendment 307. While I understand the desire to ensure the proposals chosen at the final proposal stage of the backstop process meet the objectives of the regulator, I believe that the existing drafting already suitably addresses this concern. Final proposals are already required to advance the financial sustainability and resilience of the football pyramid, under existing Clause 62(2)(a). I do not think that the proposed change in wording would lead to significant altered proposals or subsequent distribution orders; therefore, I do not consider that the change is necessary.
I turn to Amendment 288A, from the noble Lord, Lord Maude of Horsham. I understand the desire to ensure that the backstop process is triggered only as a last resort, as this is how the process has been designed and is intended to be used. However, one of the existing conditions that must be met for the regulator to trigger the process in response to an application is that its ability to deliver at least one of its objectives would be jeopardised if the backstop was not triggered. We would expect that, as part of the assessment under this condition, the regulator would review whether existing financial regulations and other regulatory tools could be utilised to better effect instead.
While in service of the same goal, the wording of this amendment is unnecessarily restrictive, requiring the regulator to exhaust all possible other regulatory approaches, and it adds a regulatory burden by requiring the consideration of an expansive array of approaches without prioritisation. This forces the regulator to spend additional time and resources considering options unlikely to resolve the conflict in question. We believe that the current wording already allows the regulator to make its own considered assessment of relevant options before triggering the process.
I now turn to the clause stand part debates and will respond to the noble Lord, Lord Markham. Part 6, of which Clause 56 is the first clause, relates to financial distributions and the backstop mechanism in its totality. I understand the desire on both sides to apply appropriate scrutiny to a part of the Bill that could significantly impact the future financial landscape of football. I hope that, throughout the debate on the backstop process on this and future Committee days, I will be able to demonstrate that the approach taken in Part 6 is the most proportionate and effective approach possible.
These backstop powers have been introduced to help ensure that an agreement can be reached between the leagues in regard to the distribution of revenues from the selling of TV broadcast rights. An agreement of this nature is vital to ensure the future financial sustainability of the football pyramid. The process has been designed to incentivise reasonableness, encourage industry solutions and tackle any bargaining imbalance between leagues. The design of the process is a final offer mechanism, a process that has been shown to incentivise negotiation. It achieves this by removing the ability of the negotiating parties to rely on the third party, in this case the regulator, to design a solution for them. We do not want football to become reliant on the regulator to decide its agreements.
I have listened very carefully to the debate and to what the Minister has said. I understand that UEFA asked the Government to carefully reconsider the backstop mechanism, since when it has become much wider in scope and more likely to lead to the most extreme outcomes. I wonder whether she has discussed it with UEFA. Can the Minister update the Committee on the outcome of those discussions?
I have had no direct meetings with UEFA, but the Minister for Sport in the other place has. I cannot confirm what was said in the meeting, but I will endeavour to establish whether this was part of the discussion. What did or did not happen at that meeting has not been part of my conversations with people, but I will endeavour to find out. I suspect I will not get an answer to the noble Lord tonight.
Will the Minister kindly write to the Committee? This is very important indeed. The backstop has been introduced into the Bill and UEFA has expressed very serious concerns about it. Unless this can be resolved, it could threaten the existence of English clubs playing in UEFA competitions. I hope that this has been high on the agenda of discussions between UEFA and the Government. Having listened carefully to what the Minister has said, all I ask is that she write to the Committee, or early in January inform the Committee, on how UEFA has responded to this significant expansion of the effect of the backstop, which it was originally very concerned about.
To be clear, I do not speak for UEFA. It is an international organisation that is able to speak for itself. I am not aware that UEFA raised issues about the backstop specifically in the meeting with the Minister for Sport, but I will endeavour to find out. I understand from the expression of the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, that he may have more information about UEFA’s concerns than I do. However, without expecting this to be an ongoing dialogue, I will endeavour to establish the information that he requested.
I asked whether it was raised in the letter from UEFA, which sadly the Committee cannot because it is private correspondence, but it is right at the heart of this legislation. If it was raised in the letter, or in subsequent correspondence, would my friend the Minister kindly confirm that to the Committee? It would help us in our deliberations moving forward.
UEFA raised no concerns about the backstop in its most recent meetings with DCMS and the Minister for Sport, including those held since the Bill has been introduced. I hope that reassures the noble Lord on this point. As I say, I do not speak, will not speak and cannot speak for UEFA; I speak for the Government.
Ultimately, the clause is about creating transparency, which sets the tone for the rest of the backstop process. Clause 59 introduces high statutory thresholds that must be met in order for the backstop to be triggered. In particular, it sets out that the regulator must have reasonable grounds to suspect that its ability to advance at least one of its objectives would be jeopardised if the backstop was not triggered. As stated, an implicit part of this consideration would include an assessment of whether other regulatory tools could be utilised to better effect instead.
The regulator can consider what the distributed revenues will be used for and, if the basis for the backstop application is that there is no distribution agreement in place, whether this has arisen as a result of bad faith. This helps to incentivise the leagues to try to reach an agreement in good faith before turning to the regulator, and ensures that the backstop is used only where absolutely necessary. The regulator must make its decision within 28 days, although it can extend this by a further 28 days if absolutely necessary. Once the regulator has made its decision, it must notify the relevant leagues of its decision to ensure transparency throughout the process.
As we have made clear, the Government’s strong preference is for a football-led solution to issues around financial distributions. As such, the mediation stage outlined in Clause 60 grants the relevant leagues an opportunity to reach an agreement before the regulator delivers a solution as part of the final proposal stage. The mediation stage has been designed to facilitate meaningful negotiation and compromise between the parties. To this end, it encourages the leagues to appoint a mediator they both agree on, but ensures that the regulator will appoint somebody with the appropriate skills and experience if they cannot. The leagues can end the mediation process for multiple reasons, most notably if an alternative agreement is reached. However, the mediator can also end the process if it is not producing meaningful good-faith negotiations or if it reaches the 28-day deadline.
I thank noble Lords for their amendments and the well-natured debate on this important part of the Bill. I hope my reasons have reassured noble Lords and that they will not press their amendments. I ask that these clauses stand part of the Bill.
I thank noble Lords for their contribution to this debate, and again I thank the Minister for her response. I noticed that she went into the detail of the backstop mechanism but I did not hear in that the more fundamental point about why she believes that the regulator needs to be bestowed these unparalleled powers to redistribute income where there are no examples of market failure. In fact, there are the examples of the very healthy Premier League and Championship, which are respectively the first and sixth richest leagues in the world—and all the result, as my noble friends pointed out, of a voluntary agreement and distribution between them all.
However, the whole prospect of the backstop happening is creating the reverse. As I understand it, those negotiations have stopped. Of course, it is entirely rational from the EFL’s point of view to stop them, because why reach an agreement when suddenly you are going to have more negotiating leverage because you have a regulator which will come in? So, again, it is perfectly rational behaviour on the part of the EFL to reach the best agreement it can with the Premier League but then instead of finally agreeing with it, appeal to the regulator in case it can get more because it has already banked what it has got from the Premier League and there is only an upside to doing that. So I am afraid that I believe this whole mechanism will actually create more friction and more disputes, rather than less, and will mean that it is less likely to reach a voluntary agreement. In addition, as I mentioned before, I still have not heard why we feel that the regulator needs these powers in the first place when we have a successful situation in place already.
As a result of that, I believe that these powers will endanger the whole size of the cake that is available for distribution. It will endanger the success and the revenue gained from that, which will result in a loss to everyone. We will definitely return to this on Report but at this stage I beg leave to withdraw.
My Lords, Amendments 280 and 281 in my name seek to reinsert the ability for the Premier League and the EFL to agree distribution arrangements for longer than five years without triggering the automatic availability of the backstop mechanism. These amendments are essential to restoring common sense, legal certainty, aligned incentives and, crucially, to restoring trust between football’s governing bodies.
When I first read the revised Bill, I thought I must be mistaken. “Surely”, I thought, “no Government would propose that two consenting parties mutually agreeing a long-term financial arrangement should be actively disincentivised from doing so by the automatic availability of a dispute mechanism”—and yet, astonishingly, here we are. Removing the freedom of football stakeholders to agree arrangements for more than five years by mutual consent cannot possibly be about fairness, transparency or sustainability. This is purely a device enabled by an active decision of the Government to turn the backstop into a ratchet. It ensures that no long-term agreement between the Premier League and the EFL, no matter how mutually beneficial, can ever provide genuine stability or be truly relied upon.
My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 280 and 281, which my noble friend Lady Brady has set out admirably. She established the case for her amendments very well and raised a number of points that I hope the Minister will answer.
These amendments work in tandem to allow competition organisers to contract out of the backstop. Under this amendment, leagues would be able to agree a period for which a distribution agreement would last. Of course, they may not reach such a deal. In that case, the applicable period would be five years—the period that is currently the default in the Bill. Allowing leagues to have a greater flexibility to negotiate the length of time for which an agreement has to be in place before it can be renegotiated would establish better principles in the backstop. Surely, we should not preclude leagues from acting cordially, if they are able to, and agreeing a period for distributions. I fear that the Bill, as the Government have presented it, might discourage constructive working relationships where they may arise.
I am conscious that this is the last opportunity I will have to intervene on this final group before the Christmas Recess and I want to thank noble Lords across the Committee for the hard work they have put in. I know that noble friends on my side of the House are missing Christmas parties and wedding anniversaries this evening, and noble Lords across the House have been doing similar. Everyone is here because they care very deeply about the future of football—even if, like football fans, they disagree volubly on some of the details.
In particular I thank the Minister, who has responded to pretty much every group. Today was the first day that she did not, and even then she had only a brief time off the pitch. She has taken many interventions, she has been generous with her time outside the Chamber as well and she has written us a number of letters. I know we have asked her a few more questions and she will be writing to us further, but, in the meantime, I wish her and all noble Lords across the Committee a very merry Christmas and express my thanks to everyone for their work in scrutinising the Bill.
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, for her amendments and for her introduction to what was, thankfully, at this time of the night, with apologies, a very short debate—so far.
These amendments are intended to allow leagues to reach an agreement to extend the time that must pass before the backstop can be triggered. While I entirely understand the desire for negotiations to be a league-led process, the timeframe outlined in the Bill has been chosen to ensure that the regulator can intervene in cases where an agreement has not been reached for a significant period. We believe that it is the correct amount of time to get a good view of how potential agreements have affected sustainability, while ensuring that a new agreement is reached in a timely manner. Crucially, many noble Lords have talked about certainty in the regime. We consider that five years provides enough certainty to all parties.
Finally, we have concerns that allowing industry to come to a different timeframe could lead to an element of coercion towards much longer agreements, nulling the presence of the power. The Government’s view is that the five-year timeframe is critical to the effective functioning of the backstop as a regulatory intervention.
For the reasons I have set out, I am unable to accept the amendments and hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw Amendment 280. But, first, I also wish all noble Lords a very happy Recess. I genuinely look forward to continuing the debate in the new year and thank the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, for his kind words.
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response and for engaging with the points raised in this debate. However, it will not surprise her that I remain completely unconvinced.
This decision does not deliver certainty: quite the opposite. It enshrines short-term thinking and locks football in a perpetual cycle of instability, with both sides forever negotiating under the shadow of the backstop. As I said, it is a recipe not for certainty but for fractiousness and mistrust.
The Minister also referenced the nature of football’s landscape as the reason to limit agreements, but I am not sure that can be right. I urge her to think again. This new backstop is the Government’s gamble that the Premier League has achieved escape velocity and can absorb anything that even its own Government can throw at it. However, the Premier League is not a cow to be milked. It is a national treasure to be protected. English football deserves much better. I am sure that we will be discussing this issue again on Report, but, for now, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.