Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 18th December 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My Lords, I make a brief intervention. I am not against these amendments —they are very useful in the context of the Bill. However, I am reflecting on the fact that, when we drafted GDPR, we took a six-year process and failed in the course of doing so to really accommodate AI, which keeps popping up every so often in this Bill. Every part of every amendment seems to have a new subsection referring to automative decisions or to AI generally.

Obviously, we are moving on to have legislation in due course on AI and I am sure that a number of pieces of legislation, including no doubt this one, will be able to be used as part of our overall package when we deal with the regulation of AI. However, although it is true that the UK GDPR gives, in theory, a higher standard of protection for children, it is important to consider that, in the context of AI, the protections that we need to have are going to have to be much greater—we know that. But if there is going to be a code of practice for children and educational areas, we need also to consider vulnerable and disabled people and other categories of people who are equally entitled to have, and particularly with regard to the AI elements need to have, some help. That is going to be very difficult. Most adults whom I know know less about AI than do children approaching the age of 18, who are much more knowledgeable. They are also more knowledgeable of the restrictions that will have to be put in place than are adults, who appear to be completely at sea and not even understanding what AI is about.

I make a precautionary point. We should be very careful, while we have AI dotted all the way through this, that when we specify a particular element—in this case, for children—we must be aware of the need to have protection in place for other groups, particularly in the context of this Bill and, indeed, future legislation.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I very much support the thrust of these amendments and what the noble Lord, Lord Knight, said in support of and in addition to them. I declare an interest as a current user of the national pupil database.

The proper codification of safeguards would be a huge help. As the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, said, it would give us a foundation on which to build. I hope that, if they are going to go in this direction, the Government will take an immediate opportunity to do so because what we have here, albeit much more disorganised, is a data resource equivalent to what we have for the National Health Service. If we used all the data on children that these systems generate, we would find it much easier to know what works and in what circumstances, as well as how to keep improving our education system.

The fact that this data is tucked away in little silos—it is not shared and is not something that can be used on a national basis—is a great pity. If we have a national code as to how this data is handled, we enable something like the use of educational data in the way that the NHS proposes to use health data. Safeguards are needed on that level but the Government have a huge opportunity; I very much hope that it is one they will take.

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I start by thanking all noble Lords who spoke; I enjoyed the vivid examples that were shared by so many of them. I particularly enjoyed the comment from the noble Lord, Lord Russell, about the huge gulf in difference between guidance, of which there is far too much, and a code that actually drives matters forward.

I will speak much more briefly because this ground has been well covered already. Both the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, seek to introduce codes of practice to protect the data of children in education services. Amendment 138 in the name of the noble Lord seeks to introduce a code on processing personal data in education. This includes consultation for the creation of such a code—a highly important element because the safety of this data, as well as its eventual usage, is of course paramount. Amendment 141 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, also seeks to set out a code of practice to provide heightened protections for children in education.

Those amendments are absolutely right to include consultation. It is a particularly important area of legislation. It is important that it does not restrict what schools can do with their data in order to improve the quality and productivity of their work. I was very appreciative of the words of the noble Lord, Lord Knight, when he sketched out some of the possibilities of what becomes educationally possible when these techs are wisely and safely used. With individual schools often responsible for the selection of technologies and their procurement, the landscape is—at the risk of understatement —often more complex than we would wish.

Alongside that, the importance of the AI Safety Institute’s role in consultation cannot be overstated. The way in which tech and AI have developed in recent years means that its expertise on how safely to provide AI to this particularly vulnerable group is invaluable.

I very much welcome the emphasis that these amendments place on protecting children’s data, particularly in the realm of education services. Schools are a safe place. That safety being jeopardised by the rapid evolution of technology that the law cannot keep pace with would, I think we can all agree, be unthinkable. As such, I hope that the Government will give careful consideration to the points raised as we move on to Report.

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[Lord Hampton (CB)]

My Lords, I support Amendments 204, 205 and 206 in the names of my noble friends Lady Kidron and Lord Freyberg, and of the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Clement-Jones, in what rapidly seems to be becoming the Cross-Bench creative club.

I spent 25 years as a professional photographer in London from the late 1980s. When I started, retouchers would retouch negatives and slides by hand, charging £500 an hour. Photoshop stopped that. Professional film labs such as Joe’s Basement and Metro would work 24 hours a day. Snappy Snaps and similar catered for the amateur market. Digital cameras stopped that. Many companies provided art prints, laminating and sundry items for professional portfolios. PDFs and websites stopped that. Many different forms of photography, particularly travel photography, were taken away when picture libraries cornered the market and drove down commissions to unsustainable levels. There were hundreds if not thousands of professional photographers in the country. The smartphone has virtually stopped that.

All these changes were evolution and the result of a world becoming more digitised, but AI web crawlers are different, illegally scraping images without consent or payment then potentially killing the trade of the victim by setting up in competition. This is a parasite, but not in the true sense, because a parasite is careful to keep its victims alive.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I very much support these amendments. I declare an interest as an owner of written copyright in the Good Schools Guide and as a father of an illustrator. In both contexts, it is very important that we get intellectual property right, as I think the Government recognised in what they put out yesterday. However, I share the scepticism of those who have spoken as to whether the Government’s ideas can be made to work.

It is really important that we get this straight. For those of us operating at the small end of the scale, IP is under continual threat from established media. I write maybe 10 or a dozen letters a year to large media outfits reminding them of the borders, the latest to the Catholic Herald—it appears not even the 10 commandments have force on them. But what AI can do is a huge measure more difficult to deal with. I can absolutely see, by talking to Copilot, that it has gone through my paywall and absorbed the contents of the Good Schools Guide, but who am I supposed to go at for this? Who has actually done the trespassing? Who is responsible for it? Where is the ownership? It is difficult to enforce copyright, even by writing a polite letter to someone saying, “Please don’t do this”. The Government appear to propose a system of polite letters saying, “Oh dear, it looks as if you might have borrowed my copyright. Please, can you give it back?”

This is not practically enforceable, and it will not result in people who care about IP locating their businesses here. Quite clearly, we do not have ownership of the big AI systems, and it is unlikely that we will have ownership of them—all that will be overseas. What we can do is create IP. If we produce a system where we do not defend the IP that we produce, then fairly rapidly, those IP creators who are capable of being mobile will go elsewhere to places that will defend their IP. It is something that a Government who are interested in growth really ought to be interested in defending. I hope that we will see some real progress in the course of the Bill going through the House.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I declare my AI interests as set out in the register. I will speak in support of Amendments 204, 205 and 206, which have been spoken to so inspiringly by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and so well by the noble Lords, Lord Freyberg, Lord Lucas and Lord Hampton, the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and the noble Viscount, Lord Colville. Each demonstrated different facets of the issue.

I co-chair the All-Party Group on AI and chaired the AI Select Committee a few years ago. I wrote a book earlier this year on AI regulation, which had a namecheck from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, at Question Time, which I was very grateful for. Before that, I had a career as an IP lawyer, defending copyright and creativity, and in this House, I have been my party’s creative industries spokesperson. The question of IP and the training of generative AI models is a key issue for me.

This is the case not just in the UK but around the world. Getty and the New York Times are suing in the United States, as are many writers, artists and musicians. It was at the root of the Hollywood actors’ and writers’ strikes last year. It is one thing to use the tech—many of us are AI enthusiasts—but it is another to be at the mercy of it.

Close to home, the FT has pointed out, using the index published by the creator of an unlicensed dataset called Books3, published online, that it is possible to identify that over 85 books written by 33 Members of the House of Lords have been pirated to train AI models from household names, such as Meta, Microsoft and Bloomberg. Although it is absolutely clear that we know that the use of copyrighted works to train AI models is contrary to UK copyright law, the laws around the transparency of these activities have not caught up. As we have heard, as well as using pirated e-books in their training data, AI developers scrape the internet for valuable professional journalism and other media, in breach of both the terms of service of websites and copyright law, to train commercial AI models. At present, developers can do this without declaring their identity, or they may use IP scraped to appear in a search index for the completely different commercial purpose of training AI models.

How can rights owners opt out of something that they do not know about? AI developers will often scrape websites or access other pirated material before they launch an LLM in public. This means that there is no way for IP owners to opt out of their material being taken before its inclusion in these models. Once used to train these models, the commercial value, as we have heard, has already been extracted from IP scraped without permission, with no way to delete data from these models.

The next wave of AI models responds to user queries by browsing the web to extract valuable news and information from professional news websites. This is known as retrieval-augmented generation—RAG. Without payment for extracting this commercial value, AI agents built by companies such as Perplexity, Google and Meta will, in effect, free-ride on the professional hard work of journalists, authors and creators. At present, such crawlers are hard to block. There is no market failure; there are well-established licensing solutions. There is no uncertainty around the existing law; the UK is absolutely clear that commercial organisations, including gen AI developers, must license the data that they use to train their large language models.

Here, as the Government’s intentions become clearer, the political, business and creative temperature is rising. Just this week, we have seen the creation of a new campaign, the Creative Rights in AI Coalition—CRAIC —across the creative and news industries and, recently, Ed Newton-Rex reached more than 30,000 signatories from among creators and creative organisations.

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[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, having a system such as this would really focus the public sector on how we can generate more datasets. As I said earlier, education is an obvious one, but so is mobile phone data. All these companies have their licences. If a condition of the licence was that the data on how people move around the UK became a public asset, that would be hugely beneficial to policy formation. If we really understood how, why and when people move, we would make much better decisions. We could save ourselves huge amounts of money. We really ought to have this as a deep focus of government policy.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I have far too little time to do justice to this subject. We on these Benches welcome this amendment. It is entirely consistent with the sovereign health fund proposed by Future Care Capital and, indeed, with the proposals from the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change on a similar concept called the national data trust. Indeed, this concept formed part of our Liberal Democrat manifesto at the last general election, so of course I support the amendment.

It would be very useful to hear more about the national data library, including on its purpose and operation, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, said. I entirely agree with her that there is a great need for a sovereign cloud service or services. Indeed, the inability to guarantee that data on the cloud is held in this country is a real issue that has not yet been properly addressed.

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Moved by

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

211F: After Clause 132, insert the following new Clause—
“Local Environmental Records Centres (“LERCs”)(1) Any planning application involving biodiversity net gain must include a data search report from the relevant Local Environmental Records Centre (LERC), and all data from biodiversity surveys conducted in connection with the application must be contributed free of charge to the LERC in record-centre-ready format.(2) All government departments and governmental organisations, local and national, that collect biodiversity data for whatever reason, must contribute it free of charge to the relevant LERCs in record-centre-ready format, and must include relevant LERC data in formulating policy and operational plans.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment ensures that all the biodiversity data collected by or in connection with government is collected in Local Environmental Records Centres, so records are as good as possible, and that that data is then used by or in connection with government so that data is put to the best possible use.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, environmental data, specifically such things as biodiversity data, is a key component to getting policy in this area right. To do so, we need to make sure that all the good data we are generating around the UK gets into our storage system, and that the best possible and most complete data is used whenever we make decisions.

We currently run that through a system of local environmental records centres that are independent and not for profit. Since that is the system we have, it ought to be run right. At the moment, we are failing to capture a lot of quality data because the data is not coming in from the planning system, or from other similar functions, in the way that it should. We are not consistently using that data in planning as we should. Natural England, which ought to be intimately linked into this system, has stepped away from it for budgetary reasons. The environment is important to us. If the Government are serious about that, we have to get our data collection and use system right. I beg to move.

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[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for his Amendment 211F. I absolutely agree that local environmental records centres provide an important service. I reassure noble Lords that the Government’s digital planning programme is developing data standards and tools to increase the availability, accessibility and usability of planning data. This will transform people’s experience of planning and housing, including through local environmental records centres. On that basis, I must ask the noble Lord whether he is prepared to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for that extensive answer from the Minister. If I have anything that I hope that she might add, I will write to her afterwards.

My heart is always in the cause of making sure that the Government get their business done on time every time, and that we finish Committee stages when they ask, as doubtless they will discover with some of the other Bills they have in this Session. For now, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 211F withdrawn.