House of Commons
(2 months, 3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Prayers
(2 months, 3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Oral Answers to Questions
(2 months, 3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Dan Carden (Liverpool Walton) (Lab)
Andrew Ranger (Wrexham) (Lab)
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Shabana Mahmood)
Today is the day that those on the Opposition Benches always knew was coming. The legacy of the previous Government was a prison system on the brink of collapse, which left us with no choice. Today, around 1,700 offenders have had to be released a few weeks or months early by changing their automatic release point from 50% to 40% of their sentence. Had we not done so, we faced courts unable to hold trials, police unable to make arrests and a total breakdown of law and order. This is not the long-term solution—there is more that we must do—but it was the necessary first step that we had to take following the disgraceful dereliction of duty of the previous Government.
Dan Carden
I refer hon. Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. One way to reduce pressure on numbers is to treat more offenders with drug and alcohol addictions outside the prison estate. That reduces prisoner numbers and reduces reoffending, which means fewer victims and fewer people returning to prison. Such a system is operating successfully in many parts of the country, but it requires the highest quality treatment. It also requires probation to work well, otherwise magistrates are limited in their choices. May I encourage the Secretary of State to get hold of Dame Carol Black’s internal review of treatment and recovery of drug-dependent people in the secure estate if she has not already done so? I have not seen it, obviously, but I am certain that it will contain many excellent recommendations.
Shabana Mahmood
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. He is right: good quality work on rehabilitation to reduce reoffending and deal with drug and alcohol issues is critical to dealing with not just the rehabilitation of offenders, but the prison system. He will know that nearly 80% of offending is reoffending, which is far too high. The situation at the moment is that it is impossible to do good-quality, rehabilitative work in prisons that are more than 99% full, with prisoners locked up for 23 hours a day, so the first step is to address capacity. Once we have done so, we will be able to build on recommendations made by experts in this area to make sure that we do everything we can to reduce reoffending.
Andrew Ranger
I thank the Secretary of State for her answer. My constituency of Wrexham is home to one of the UK’s largest prisons. It is well known that if an offender has fixed and secure accommodation to go to, they are less likely to reoffend. What steps is she taking to ensure that those released today under SDS40 will have accommodation on release, including in Wrexham?
Shabana Mahmood
We are working closely with colleagues from the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government to understand the impact on the housing sector, but, as is the case any time a prisoner is released, probation staff are working hard to prepare release plans, including permanent and temporary accommodation. If an offender is at risk of homelessness on release, they will be housed in community accommodation. We expect to provide housing for the majority of offenders using existing provision, but, should there not be enough, I have authorised probation directors to make use of alternative arrangements, including budget hotels, as a temporary measure for the cases that we will see in the next few weeks.
Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)
During the debate on early prisoner release in July, the impact assessment produced suggested that there would be 5,500 fewer prison places than planned for because of the need to meet the capital savings that were discussed at the time. When I raised that with the Secretary of State, she said that this matter would be under review. Can she now confirm that it is the Government’s intention to cut back prison places by 5,500 over the medium and long term?
Shabana Mahmood
The right hon. Lady will know that I have committed to publishing a 10-year capacity strategy. There are also live discussions as part of the Budget and spending review process. We have committed to delivering the shortfall of 14,000 places in our prison system, which the previous Government failed to do. That is a commitment that we have given. Those conversations are live conversations and I will report to the House in due course, but we will publish that 10-year capacity strategy before the end of the year.
Richard Tice (Boston and Skegness) (Reform)
Can the Secretary of State explain why, when some 10,000 foreign criminals are blocking up space in our jails, they are not being removed and deported, which would simultaneously save the British taxpayer billions of pounds every year and have the support of millions of British voters?
Shabana Mahmood
They are being deported, and they will continue to be deported. Nothing will change as far as the deportation of foreign national offenders is concerned, but the inheritance we received from the previous Government meant we had to take additional measures. The answer will not come from the deportation of foreign national offenders alone, but it is very much part of the picture.
Edward Argar (Melton and Syston) (Con)
Under the early release scheme starting today, the detail of which was designed by the Secretary of State, how many people will be eligible to be released at the 40% point who have been sentenced, for example, for offences under section 20, grievous bodily harm, and section 47, actual bodily harm, of the Offences against the Person Act 1861, both of which carry a maximum sentence of five years, but for which more often a sentence will be awarded that is less than five years?
Shabana Mahmood
The shadow Lord Chancellor will know that we have made important exclusions in the design of the policy and that all those who have committed serious offences and have been sentenced to four years or more will be excluded from it. I will not be able to give details on the specific mix of offences per offender, but those offences that would otherwise be included, but that relate to serious violence or sexual offences, have been excluded from the policy.
Edward Argar
I am grateful to the Secretary of State, but I have the statutory instrument and the list of exclusions in the schedule here, and those offences are not specifically included in that list of exclusions. My fear is—and this would be deeply disappointing—that many domestic abusers who were convicted for those offences but received fewer than five years may be eligible for early release and be considered for it, because her scheme does not explicitly exclude those offences. Given that, the reality is that the Government’s claim that domestic abusers will not be eligible to benefit from the scheme will ring very hollow to victims of domestic abuse and the wider public, won’t it?
Shabana Mahmood
With respect to the shadow Lord Chancellor, what will ring hollow to members of the public is the Tory party’s new-found commitment to exclusions for domestic abuse, and the sheer hypocrisy of talking about exclusions to this policy when he was a Minister in the previous Government who brought in the end of custody supervised licence scheme, which had no exclusions relating to domestic abuse whatsoever—[Interruption.] He talks about the governor lock from a sedentary position, but he knows full well that that was an attempt to shift the blame away from ministerial decision making and to place it on governors—something I am not sure was much appreciated by those who run our prisons. We have taken every step and every mechanism available to us to exclude offences connected to domestic abuse and, crucially, to give the probation service time to prepare—something the previous Government never did.
Mr Lee Dillon (Newbury) (LD)
It is clear that our prisons are at breaking point. The Conservatives’ failure to tackle the courts backlog has directly contributed to prison overcrowding. Thanks to their neglect and mismanagement, the Government have been left with no choice but to take these measures. However, the Lord Chancellor said in her statement in July that these measures would be reviewed
“within 18 months of implementation—at the very latest, in March 2026.”—[Official Report, 25 July 2024; Vol. 752, c. 833.]
That is a long time away, particularly given the various stories we are hearing about certain individuals being released. Will the Secretary of State once again confirm that no dangerous criminals will be released early?
Shabana Mahmood
We have taken every measure available to us to exclude offences from this measure. Serious violence, sexual violence and offences connected to domestic abuse have all been excluded, as have terror offences and so on—the hon. Gentleman will know the list of exclusions. We will work with our probation service, which has done a heroic amount of work over the summer to deliver this policy, in the coming months. We will also work very closely with criminal justice system partners to make sure that the roll-out of the scheme is as safe as possible. We have taken every measure, we will continue to keep matters under review and I will keep the House updated in due course.
Mr Speaker
We need to speed up a little. We are only now getting to Question 2.
Bobby Dean (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
Monica Harding (Esher and Walton) (LD)
Paul Davies (Colne Valley) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Sir Nicholas Dakin)
Hon. Members are right to focus on reducing reoffending. Nearly 80% of offending is reoffending, and it has an immense cost to the taxpayer and to communities. As the Lord Chancellor said, we have inherited a difficult situation in relation to prison capacity, which makes it harder to address the rehabilitation needs of prisoners. The House should have no doubt that this Government will roll up our sleeves and get on with the job of reducing reoffending.
Bobby Dean
My point speaks to what the Minister just said. The lack of prison capacity means that some people are locked up in their cells for 22 or 23 hours a day, and many prisons are ranked insufficient or poor for delivering purposeful activities such as education and training. How does the Minister plan to address that while we still have a bulging prison population? How will he increase the provision of those purposeful activities?
Sir Nicholas Dakin
We are taking the hard decisions that are necessary to create space and capacity in the Prison Service to address that issue. The hon. Member is right that the report from His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons identified the provision of sufficient purposeful activity as its No. 1 issue to address. We know that education and employment help to reduce significantly the chance of reoffending, and we will work to do that with the Prison and Probation Service.
Mr Speaker
Order. You are supposed to sit down, Minister! I know that you are enjoying the Dispatch Box on your return, but please do not over-enjoy it. I call Monica Harding.
Monica Harding
As my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Bobby Dean) mentioned, the chief inspector of prisons said this morning that prisoners can sometimes be banged up in their cells for up to 22 hours a day, that classrooms and workshops are empty, and that education and training are simply not given the priority they need. Does the Secretary of State agree that, in order to cut reoffending, it is time to introduce a proper workable plan to improve the rehabilitation of people leaving prison?
Sir Nicholas Dakin
My own example demonstrates that training and education are very important in whatever role one takes on, so I agree wholeheartedly with what the hon. Member says.
Paul Davies
Addressing literacy in UK prisons is crucial for successful rehabilitation. Improved literacy skills empower inmates with better job prospects, aiding their reintegration into society. Education fosters personal growth, self-esteem and decision-making abilities, which are essential for a crime-free life. Investing in prison literacy programmes is a vital step towards creating safer communities and offering inmates a genuine second chance. What comprehensive strategies are being implemented to address that?
Sir Nicholas Dakin
My hon. Friend is exactly right: literacy and numeracy are crucial. I was pleased to visit HMP Humber recently, where I saw excellent best practice. It is important that those programmes are in place, that we learn from best practice and that we continue to do our best in that area.
Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith and Chiswick) (Lab)
A key driver of rehabilitation and the prevention of reoffending is sentencing policy. In our manifesto, we promised a review of sentencing policy—quite properly. When is that likely to take place, and will it take account of the very interesting recent paper by former Lord Chief Justices on sentencing inflation?
Sir Nicholas Dakin
The paper to which my hon. Friend refers is a significant one, and I urge all Members to look at it. The Government are committed to a review of sentencing policy, and it will commence as soon as it can. We will report in due time.
Alison Hume (Scarborough and Whitby) (Lab)
Jayne Kirkham (Truro and Falmouth) (Lab/Co-op)
Dan Aldridge (Weston-super-Mare) (Lab)
Dr Marie Tidball (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)
Anna Dixon (Shipley) (Lab)
Liz Twist (Blaydon and Consett) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Alex Davies-Jones)
The Government are deeply committed to supporting victims of rape and sexual violence. To do that, we will increase the powers of the Victims’ Commissioner and get victims the information that they need, provide free legal advocates to uphold the rights of victims of rape, and fast-track rape cases to drive down waiting times for victims of those abhorrent offences.
Alison Hume
Last week, “Emmerdale” aired an upsetting episode dealing with the domestic abuse suffered by Belle Dingle. The storyline has shown just how difficult it can be for someone to leave an abusive relationship, not least because of the psychological control exercised by abusers. Some victims also need somewhere to go for safety. According to the latest available figures, Scarborough has the highest rate of reported domestic abuse in North Yorkshire, but there is still no refuge for victims in the town. Will my hon. Friend work with me, colleagues across Government and stakeholders to find the funding to ensure that a refuge finally opens in Scarborough?
Alex Davies-Jones
As an avid “Emmerdale” fan, I saw that harrowing episode. It goes to show the importance of TV drama in raising awareness of these vital issues. The Government are committed to halving violence against women and girls within a decade. The Ministry of Justice is working with Departments across Whitehall, including the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, to support local authorities to meet their statutory duties, including refuges for all victims of domestic abuse who need them. We know, though, that it is not just refuge support that is important; wider community-based support is important too, and the MOJ provides funding to police and crime commissioners to commission those vital services for victims.
Jayne Kirkham
Victims of alleged rape in Truro and Falmouth and across the country are having their trials pushed back for months, if not years, often very shortly before those trials are set to begin. That leads to severe distress for victims and families, and can have unintended consequences, such as bail conditions becoming outdated as victims wait so long for their cases to come to trial that addresses change in the meantime. Will the Minister please outline what she is doing to prevent or minimise the potential harm caused by such unintended consequences and to bring those long-delayed cases to a speedy conclusion?
Alex Davies-Jones
I thank my hon. Friend for highlighting the awful state our criminal justice system was left in by the previous Government. We are committed to ensuring swift delivery of justice for victims at all stages of the criminal justice system, and we are working closely with various partners to achieve that aim. We know that due to the complexity of their cases, rape victims often wait disproportionately long periods for their trial compared with victims of other offence types. Reducing waiting times for victims is a priority for me and this Government, which is why we have committed to fast-tracking rape cases through the justice system. I recently saw at first hand at Bristol Crown court how that can be done, and how our judges are working tirelessly to make it happen.
Dan Aldridge
Many will be watching with horror the extraordinarily disturbing case unfolding in France, in which drugs were allegedly used to facilitate the abuse of a woman by her husband and over 70 men. Like many across the House, I have received communication from victims of spiking in my town of Weston-super-Mare. They and I are keen to know what steps the Minister is taking to crack down on the devastating crime of spiking here in the UK.
Alex Davies-Jones
The case in France is truly shocking, and we have all looked on in horror as the details have unfolded. I commend the victim for her bravery in coming forward and making it public so that we can see the full aspects of the trial. Spiking is a despicable crime. We have committed to introduce a new criminal offence of spiking and we are considering how best to implement it. To be clear, in England and Wales, having sex with a person who cannot consent is rape, and spiking with intent to engage in sexual activity is a specific offence, with a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison.
Dr Tidball
Ten years ago, Jack and Paul Sykes, aged 12 and nine respectively, tragically lost their lives at the hands of their abusive father, who set their house on fire. Their mother, my constituent Claire Throssell, is a powerful campaigner against presumptive contact—a legal principle that allowed a known domestic abuser to access Jack and Paul. Will the Minister meet Claire and me to discuss how we can properly protect children from domestic abuse in our family court system?
Alex Davies-Jones
I thank my hon. Friend for that really important question. Claire’s tireless campaigning for families and children experiencing domestic abuse is inspirational, and my thoughts are with her and the whole community as the anniversary comes closer next month.
Both the criminal and family justice systems will play an essential role in delivering our commitment to halve violence against women and girls. The family court system must protect child victims of domestic abuse, and the new pathfinder courts provide more support for domestic abuse agencies and ensure that the child’s welfare and voice is at the centre of proceedings from the outset. The Government and I take the need to respond robustly to perpetrators within the family courts very seriously. The previous Government were reviewing the presumption of parental involvement. We are considering the findings and will respond in due course.
Anna Dixon
I draw the Minister’s attention to the work of Bradford council and West Yorkshire Mayor Tracy Brabin, who have launched the safety of women and girls initiative, together with a dedicated women’s safety unit within West Yorkshire police. What support can the Government offer to bolster the efforts of local authorities such as Bradford to stamp out violence against women and girls in our communities?
Alex Davies-Jones
My hon. Friend’s question gives me the opportunity to also place on record my thanks to Mayor Tracy Brabin for all the incredible work she is doing in this field. She is an outstanding champion for tackling violence against women and girls, and we should be doing more work like hers across Government.
As I have said, we are committed to halving violence against women and girls within a decade. We are supporting colleagues across Whitehall, including at the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, to ensure close collaboration with local authorities. In addition, the duty to collaborate under the Victims and Prisoners Act 2024 will facilitate improved multi-agency working and encourage all local commissioners to provide joined-up working for victims of all crimes, including violence against women and girls.
Liz Twist
This time last year, the Lord Chancellor announced her intention to introduce free legal advocates so that victims of rape can enforce their rights—for example, in relation to the use of their personal information in court. What progress is the Minister making in bringing forward that vital new protection for victims?
Alex Davies-Jones
In our manifesto, this Government were clear that we are committed to introducing free, independent legal advice for victims and survivors of rape, from report to trial. I am working with officials to develop this new policy and to ensure victims get the support they need to understand and uphold their rights as soon as possible. I plan to draw on lessons learned from the successful pilots in Northumbria, as well as from the Mayor of London’s current ILA pilot.
Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (North Cotswolds) (Con)
In the last Session, when the Public Accounts Committee looked at the effect of delays in the criminal justice system on serious sexual and rape cases, it found that some cases were taking five years or more from prosecution to trial, and that some of the poor traumatised victims were simply disappearing because they could not stand it any longer. Without entering into the blame game, what can the Minister do to improve that situation?
Alex Davies-Jones
The hon. Member is right that, although we do not want to get into the blame game, the current status of the criminal justice system is truly appalling. Rape trials are not getting as fast-tracked as they should be, and we are working at pace to try to remedy that situation. Currently, 60% of rape victims are pulling out of the criminal justice system. The attrition rate is far too high, and I am working with officials to improve that rate and to improve victims’ experience at court.
Mike Martin (Tunbridge Wells) (LD)
How many prisoners are going to be released today in Kent, and can the Secretary of State guarantee that none of them will be homeless within a month?
Alex Davies-Jones
As the Lord Chancellor has previously said, we cannot give exact figures for specific areas. However, we are working with other Departments, including the MHCLG, and with local authorities to ensure that those who are being released from prison today under SDS40 have the accommodation that they need. The Probation Service has been working around the clock to ensure that.
Mr Speaker
Order. That question pushed the boundaries a little bit. I think it should have been mainly about those who are rapists who are being released.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Minister for her answers, but what discussions has she had with Education Ministers about supporting victims of rape and sexual assault who are under 18 years of age within our educational institutions?
Alex Davies-Jones
I thank the hon. Member for his question. He will know that this Government have a mission to tackle violence against women and girls. As I have said, that vision pulls together Departments across Whitehall, including the Department for Education—I recently had a meeting with an Education Minister to discuss exactly that issue. I have been clear that sex with anyone who cannot consent is a crime, and we are working across Government to tackle it.
Josh Babarinde (Eastbourne) (LD)
From my own experience, I know that independent sexual violence advisers provided by amazing charities such as SurvivorsUK are critical guides to help survivors navigate their path to justice and peace. Could the Minister commit to redoubling her support for ISVAs and the organisations that make them available to the survivors who need them?
Alex Davies-Jones
I know that the hon. Gentleman is passionate about this field of justice. His question gives me the opportunity also put on record my thanks to ISVAs, who do immense work across this field day in and day out, supporting victims of these abhorrent crimes—the work they do is invaluable. This Government are committed to introducing independent legal advocates to help victims and survivors get the support they need, and we are working with our stakeholders across the sector to ensure that support is available.
Linsey Farnsworth (Amber Valley) (Lab)
Alex Baker (Aldershot) (Lab)
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Shabana Mahmood)
The criminal justice system rose to the challenge brought about by the violent disorder we saw over the summer. As of 22 August, 576 individuals have been brought before the courts. Of those, 123 have been given a custodial sentence by the Crown court.
Linsey Farnsworth
As a Crown prosecutor for 21 years, I know only too well that the court backlog has been worsened by repair issues forcing courts to close. What is the Secretary of State doing to address the repairs needed to the court estate, so that victims in my constituency of Amber Valley and across the country can get access to justice?
Shabana Mahmood
I thank my hon. Friend for that question. It is of course crucial that courts are in a position where the building—the infrastructure itself—does not prevent them from being able to sit. It will be a priority for this Government to resolve those issues, so that cases can be heard and victims can be given the justice that they deserve.
Alex Baker
It is clear that we have come dangerously close to running out of prison places in the last few months, which as the Prime Minister has rightly said, is
“about as fundamental a failure as you can get”.
Who does the Lord Chancellor blame for this failure, and does she think we will ever get a word of apology from the Conservative party for leaving our prison estate on the brink of disaster?
Shabana Mahmood
I would happily give way to anybody on the Opposition Benches if they would like to take up the invitation to offer an apology, but I do not think one will be forthcoming. I certainly do think that one is required given the state of the prison system that we have inherited, but it is our job to make sure that that never happens again. That is why we will be launching a review into how the current position was allowed to come to pass. The Conservative party ignored all the warnings, putting political gain ahead of the country’s best interests, and it will fall to this Government to fix it.
Neil O’Brien (Harborough, Oadby and Wigston) (Con)
The Government have rightly found prison places for those involved in the recent disorder, but they have done that by continuing their early release policy. Will the Secretary of State confirm that those guilty of manslaughter are among those able to get early release, and will she explain to the House why people guilty of manslaughter should be released early?
Shabana Mahmood
I think the hon. Member is guilty of wilful ignorance. He will know full well that the prison system that we inherited was on the point of collapse. The fact that some prison build that was already in course was able to be brought on line a little earlier to help us get over the crisis of the summer is testament to the people working at the frontline to make sure that those prison spaces were available, but we are still short of prison capacity. Prisons are still at over 99% capacity, and that is the legacy left by his Government. He will know that we have important exclusions to the SDS40 policy, and he will know that the offence and the sentence are both taken into account. I will not give a running commentary on exactly which sentences and which offenders are affected, but he knows what exclusions are in place.
Sarah Coombes (West Bromwich) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Alex Davies-Jones)
This Government are committed to improving the victim experience at court. We will work with the judiciary to fast-track rape cases to ensure timely justice for some of the most vulnerable within the criminal justice system. Additionally, this Government committed in our manifesto to introducing free, independent legal support for victims of rape from report to trial. We have also committed to strengthening the victims code and to increasing the Victims’ Commissioner’s powers to make sure that victims’ needs are met.
Sarah Coombes
For victims, giving evidence in a court can sometimes be a very difficult and distressing experience, which is why they sometimes prefer to give evidence via video link. Can the Minister set out what steps the Government are taking to ensure that more victims can give evidence via video link across our country?
Alex Davies-Jones
I thank my hon. Friend for that important question. Video links are available in all courts to help vulnerable and intimidated witnesses give evidence. We have recently invested £50,000 to transform witness facilities and upgrade video link rooms in 10 Crown courts. Pre-recorded evidence is also available in all Crown courts for eligible victims to spare them the trauma of giving evidence at a live trial.
Jess Brown-Fuller (Chichester) (LD)
To ensure that victims see justice, criminal cases need to be heard in a timely manner, which relies on a number of courts being in place to be able to hear them. The future of Chichester Crown court, which is the only Crown court in west Sussex, has been under threat for nearly a decade. Local campaigners fought to save that provision, leading to its reopening to clear the backlog, but its future remains uncertain. Will the Minister meet me to ensure the future of Chichester Crown court?
Alex Davies-Jones
We know that courtroom availability is essential to dealing with the backlog, and I will pass on that message to the courts Minister—the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Swindon South (Heidi Alexander).
Josh MacAlister (Whitehaven and Workington) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Sir Nicholas Dakin)
My hon. Friend is completely right: prison officer recruitment targets are essential. Prison officers do a fantastic job. We have seen how they have gone above and beyond over recent weeks and months, so I pay tribute to them. Nationally, we are currently above staffing targets, but challenges remain in certain sites with a high number of vacancies, and bespoke interventions are being developed for those sites.
Josh MacAlister
I thank the Minister for that answer, and I praise the Government team for the way they have responded to the complete chaos left in the wake of 14 years of a Conservative Government.
In my previous work I visited young offenders institutions, which have been left in total chaos by the last Government. Part of their recklessness was to start a botched recruitment process for the graduate recruitment training programme for prison officers. It is currently delivered by Unlocked Graduates, which is doing fantastic work. The Government’s chief inspector of prisons has said there is a real risk that that programme ending will add to the recruitment problems that the Government face. Will they restart that procurement process and meet me to discuss its future?
Sir Nicholas Dakin
I am happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss that matter. His Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service worked to reprocure the next iteration of the graduate scheme, with contracts for an open procurement exercise. Although Unlocked Graduates was identified as the winning bidder and was offered the contract, it did not confirm its intent to sign the contract. The Department is now working hard to come up with plans to put a graduate scheme in place for future years.
Mr Jonathan Brash (Hartlepool) (Lab)
Steve Darling (Torbay) (LD)
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Heidi Alexander)
It is good to be back. Mr Speaker.
The Government are committed to reducing caseloads and bringing waiting times down for court users across all jurisdictions. We continue to keep 18 Nightingale courtrooms open across eight venues, so that we have more physical capacity to hear cases in all jurisdictions. We plan to sit more than 105,000 days in the Crown court and more than 102,000 days in the family court this financial year, enabling us to work through as many cases as possible.
Mr Brash
Hartlepool’s court building has stood empty since 2017, after it was mothballed by the then Conservative Government. Will my hon. Friend investigate the potential for reopening Hartlepool’s court as part of our efforts to expand capacity and clear the backlog, and will she meet me to discuss the issue further?
Heidi Alexander
I hear you, Mr Speaker.
I welcome the question from my hon. Friend. He will know that His Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service keeps the court estate under regular review to ensure that it meets operational requirements. I am afraid there are currently no plans to reopen Hartlepool magistrates court, but I would be happy to meet my hon. Friend alongside officials from HMCTS to discuss his concerns. The reasons behind the increased caseload in our criminal courts are complex and multifaceted, but the number of courtrooms available is not the main constraint we currently face.
Steve Darling
Torquay magistrates court closed in the last decade, and therefore justice is served somewhat distantly from our communities in Torbay. Can the Minister assure the House that there will be some reviews to ensure that justice is served more locally to our communities in south Devon?
Heidi Alexander
I may be having another meeting, with the hon. Gentleman, as well as looking at the court in Chorley, and I am happy to discuss that matter with him.
Rebecca Smith (South West Devon) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Alex Davies-Jones)
This Government are deeply committed to supporting domestic abuse victims, and we provide funding to police and crime commissioners, who commission community-based support services for domestic abuse victims and survivors, and independent domestic violence advisors. Domestic abuse victims are automatically eligible for certain special measures in court such as screens or video links, and the pathfinder pilot in family courts aims to improve experiences and outcomes for children and families affected by domestic abuse.
Rebecca Smith
Devon and Cornwall-based domestic abuse charity First Light south-west, and national domestic abuse charity Hourglass, which works specifically with older victims, have highlighted to me the challenges that they face with short-term funding streams for their work. The current year-on-year funding model results in issues with the recruitment and retention of staff, which in turn impacts on service provision to victims. Specialist services are especially vulnerable given the nature of the support they provide. Will the Minister commit to providing sustainable long-term funding for frontline domestic abuse services, including for specialist services for older victim survivors, so as better to support victims in my constituency and across the country?
Alex Davies-Jones
The work that Hourglass and many others do is outstanding, and I place on record my thanks to it for championing the rights of older victims across the piece. The Ministry of Justice provides police and crime commissioners with annual grant funding to commission local practical, emotional and therapeutic support services for victims of all crime types. I am hearing loud and clear the calls from the sector, but it would be wrong of me to pre-empt the announcement of funding after March 2025. We cannot agree that before the spending review, but the Ministry of Justice has allocated £1.2 million of funding over two years to support the training and infrastructure of ISVAs and IDVAs and to support fantastic organisations such as Hourglass that do such brilliant work.
Jake Richards (Rother Valley) (Lab)
Another forum in which domestic violence is litigated is private children’s cases in our family courts. The Secretary of State and Ministers will no doubt be aware of the huge delays that families are suffering in having their cases heard and then those cases being decided. At the heart of that are children waiting for a conclusion. What steps are the Government taking to try to expedite those cases, in particular working with other agencies across government including the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service and local authorities?
Alex Davies-Jones
The Government recognise the importance of supporting separating families and, where appropriate, helping them to resolve their issues quickly and without the need to come to court. This is a complex area. My officials and I are working closely on it, and I would be happy to update my hon. Friend with a more thorough review soon.
Gareth Bacon (Orpington) (Con)
Domestic violence at its most severe becomes murder. Domestic murder is often the most shocking and brutal. With that in mind, what assessment has the Minister made of the Killed Women campaign?
Alex Davies-Jones
I am aware of the Killed Women campaign. I have liaised closely with it in opposition and now in government. Its aims are admirable. Any woman murdered by domestic homicide in this country is one woman too many. We know that sadly three women a week are being murdered. That is a shocking statistic that this Government are hoping to tackle.
Gareth Bacon
I thank the Minister for that answer. In light of that, will she commit to responding to the calls of Carole Gould, Julie Devey and Elaine Newborough and many others to address the injustice of the discrepancy between the starting point for sentences in domestic murder cases versus that for other murder cases? Will she do so in quick time, so that she can include appropriate measures in the forthcoming victims, courts and public protection Bill?
Alex Davies-Jones
I am meeting the women imminently to discuss this further, and the Government have committed to a thorough sentencing review.
Mr Paul Kohler (Wimbledon) (LD)
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Heidi Alexander)
We are committed to ensuring the swift delivery of justice for victims at all stages of the criminal justice system, and we are working closely with various partners involved to achieve that aim. In relation to the courts, we plan to sit more than 105,000 working days in the Crown court this financial year, and we continue to hear criminal cases at Nightingale courts. We are also considering other measures to speed up justice for victims, and we will make further announcements in due course.
Mr Kohler
I thank the Minister for her answer. After waiting seven years for the Grenfell inquiry to report, the bereaved families and survivors have now been told that they must wait two or possibly three years for a decision on whether and whom to prosecute. As Martin Luther King said,
“justice too long delayed is justice denied.”
I understand from the Crown Prosecution Service, which I met recently, that much of the delay is for the discovery process, where the welter of digital information must be assessed. Can the Minister tell me what is being done to address these delays and whether things such as artificial intelligence are being contemplated?
Heidi Alexander
As the Prime Minister made clear, those affected by the Grenfell tragedy have already waited too long for justice. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that anything in my or my Department’s power that needs to be done will be done. The Government fully support the Metropolitan police and the Crown Prosecution Service as they complete their investigations and bring prosecutions to trial, while respecting their operational independence. I am sure the use of all forms of technology will be considered in that process.
Sir Desmond Swayne
Perhaps too many barristers have become politicians, but however caused, how will the Minister address the shortage at the criminal Bar?
Heidi Alexander
I hesitate to answer the right hon. Gentleman’s question, given that my boss is a former barrister—I say that we cannot have too many.
Only last week I discussed the adequacy of numbers of legal professionals in the Crown court with the chair of the Criminal Bar Association, Mary Prior, and I will be working with the profession to ensure not only that we are recruiting sufficient barristers to work in the courts, but that we are retaining barristers at the criminal Bar.
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
Our team in Newport East are trying hard to raise the issue of how long cases are taking for constituents—we inherited those delays from the Conservatives—but even the CPS is taking months to answer basic queries about where the delays are in cases. Will the Minister urge the CPS to respond faster?
Douglas McAllister (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab)
Does the Minister agree that a properly funded legal aid scheme both here and in Scotland is essential for access to justice, and that the decline in this vital public service that both the Tories and the SNP have presided over is nothing short of disgraceful?
Heidi Alexander
What we are experiencing is the very long tail of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, which has meant that both the civil and criminal legal aid sectors have faced huge challenges. That is vital to people’s access to justice.
Olivia Bailey (Reading West and Mid Berkshire) (Lab)
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Shabana Mahmood)
On taking office two months ago, it was immediately clear that we had inherited a prison system at the point of collapse. That is why our emergency action, which will see certain offenders leave prison a few weeks or months early, has proved necessary. The measure takes effect today. I pay tribute to the work of the Prison and Probation Service, which has gone above and beyond the call of duty both in responding to the violent disorder in recent weeks and in preparing for the introduction of those measures. This marks the beginning of a rescue effort—one that will, in time, allow us to rebuild and reform our justice system in the years ahead.
Olivia Bailey
After the last Government left our prisons on the brink of collapse, I welcome the Secretary of State’s commitment to building new prisons and driving down reoffending. I also welcome her commitment to additional transparency. Does she agree that such transparency is a significant departure from the approach of the previous Government, who released thousands of prisoners early in secret?
Shabana Mahmood
My hon. Friend is absolutely right that it is a significant departure from the approach of the previous Government, who introduced an early release scheme—the end of custody supervised licence scheme—that operated under a veil of secrecy, with no data ever published on the numbers released. It took our Government to publish the data showing that more than 10,000 offenders were released under that scheme. I am pleased to say today that we have ended that scheme.
Edward Argar (Melton and Syston) (Con)
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for her previous answers on substantive questions about accommodation for prisoners released early. Further to that, have the Government contracted any specific hotels for potential use by early release prisoners?
Shabana Mahmood
I have authorised probation directors in areas to make appropriate provision, if that proves to be needed—at this point, it is not definite that it will be required—to ensure that there is no gap in provision for offenders being released under the SDS40 scheme.
Edward Argar
I think the Secretary of State said that none has been contracted at this time. If they are at any point, further to the point made by the hon. Member for Reading West and Mid Berkshire (Olivia Bailey), will she be open and transparent with the House, local authorities and the public about how many, at what point and, in broad terms, where they will be located?
Mr Lee Dillon (Newbury) (LD)
Every 30 seconds, a domestic abuse-related call is made to the police. It is positive to see that the number of domestic abuse cases referred from the police to the CPS has increased, but those numbers are still well below the level seen over the past five years. Will the Secretary of State address the delays in domestic abuse referrals from the police to the CPS and acknowledge the unique risks that they pose?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Alex Davies-Jones)
As I have stated, this Government were elected with a landmark mission to halve violence against women and girls within a decade. To do so, we must improve the justice system’s response to these crimes, including domestic abuse. We must relentlessly target the most prolific and harmful perpetrators, better support victims and survivors, and ensure timely and effective justice. We will put domestic abuse experts in 999 control rooms and strengthen the use of protection orders, and we will strengthen the tools available to manage domestic abuse offenders.
Joe Powell (Kensington and Bayswater) (Lab)
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Heidi Alexander)
As I said to the hon. Member for Wimbledon (Mr Kohler), we will do everything we can to ensure swift justice for the victims of Grenfell. We plan for the Crown court to sit for at least 105,000 days this financial year, and we will do more to increase the speed with which cases are heard in the Crown court.
Bradley Thomas (Bromsgrove) (Con)
Shabana Mahmood
I have committed to the review, because that is the appropriate way, and I will not make early promises that might not be kept. I have committed to both transparency and a review. We will publish all the data on a quarterly basis and I will return to the House with the results of the review and the approach that we will take at that point.
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
Alex Davies-Jones
The victims code sets out the services and support that victims of crime are entitled to receive from the criminal justice system in England and Wales. That includes the right to access support, which applies regardless of whether they decide to report the crime to the police. I would be delighted to meet my hon. Friend to discuss this further.
Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Sir Nicholas Dakin)
The hon. Member is right that drugs in prison is a big issue that the Government are working hard to tackle. I would be very happy to write to her with further details of what we are doing.
Jess Asato (Lowestoft) (Lab)
Alex Davies-Jones
First, let me congratulate my hon. Friend on succeeding me as chair of the all-party parliamentary group on perpetrators of domestic abuse. It is a vital APPG and I know that she will do sterling working as its chair.
To confirm, we have excluded from SDS40 certain offences that are frequently connected to domestic abuse, such as stalking and controlling or coercive behaviour. The victim contact scheme is available to all victims of a sexual, violent or terrorist offence where the offender is sentenced to 12 months or more in custody. We are working with the sector and others to consider how to improve communication with victims about an offender following a conviction.
Steff Aquarone (North Norfolk) (LD)
Heidi Alexander
As I have said, the Crown court will sit for more than 105,000 days this financial year—an increase of 28% on the year before the pandemic. That means that there is more capacity in the Crown court this year than in six of the past seven years. We have inherited a criminal justice system on life support as a result of the previous Government, and we have a broken economy. Everyone can see the state of the public finances, and justice is not immune from that.
Henry Tufnell (Mid and South Pembrokeshire) (Lab)
In Pembrokeshire we have no local solicitors’ firms offering pro bono work, and the nearest free legal advice centre is in Swansea. Many of my constituents are therefore unable to access to justice, which is particularly distressing in the area of family law and care proceedings. What steps is the Minister taking to tackle the issue of legal deserts in places such as Pembrokeshire and west Wales?
Heidi Alexander
Access to justice is integral to a fair society, including for our rural communities. In our courts and tribunals, modernised services and a more effective use of technology can improve people’s access to the justice system, but I recognise that there is more to do and I am happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss that.
Monica Harding (Esher and Walton) (LD)
Shabana Mahmood
We have taken every measure available to us and pulled every lever we could to ensure that offences connected to domestic abuse are excluded and that the probation service has had time to prepare. We will work with it in the coming weeks and months to ensure that release plans are in place and victims are notified in the usual way.
Ben Goldsborough (South Norfolk) (Lab)
A widow was prosecuted under the single justice procedure after her husband had passed away and the car tax expired. She was convicted over just £3.34, and the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency sent the letter to the wrong address. Will the Minister meet me to discuss how we can reform the single justice procedure to make it more accountable and ensure that there is better oversight of the process?
Heidi Alexander
I am very happy to meet my hon. Friend. I am also very keen that we keep under review what more can be done to support vulnerable defendants going through the single justice procedure, and to improve oversight and regulation of the organisations using that procedure.
Siân Berry (Brighton Pavilion) (Green)
Sir Nicholas Dakin
The hon. Member is right that this is a big issue. The Prison and Probation Service is working hard to ensure that appropriate accommodation is available, and working hard with partners across the country in different regions. I am very happy to meet the hon. Member to talk about the issue further.
Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)
Amazing charities such as Survive in York depend for their survival on the rape and sexual abuse support fund. However, without certainty over the amount, and if and when the funding will come, it is hard to leverage funding from other sources, such as the national lottery. When will the funding be announced, and will the Minister meet me to discuss this vital funding as demand rises?
Alex Davies-Jones
I thank my hon. Friend for that question. I recognise the vital work that Survive in York does to support victims and survivors in her area. I fully appreciate the importance of notifying police and crime commissioners and providers about future funding as early as possible to effectively commission, plan and deliver those services. As I have indicated, it would be wrong of me to pre-empt the current spending review. We know that current providers are concerned about the cliff edge in March 2025. I fully appreciate that and I would be delighted to meet her to discuss that further.
Manuela Perteghella (Stratford-on-Avon) (LD)
Will the Secretary of State ensure that measures are put in place in the criminal justice system to support survivors of violence against women and girls, including mandatory training for prosecutors on understanding the impact of trauma on survivors and the release of court transcripts for free for victims of rape?
Heidi Alexander
The hon. Lady may know that we currently offer free transcripts of judges’ sentencing remarks to families of victims of fatal road offences, murder and manslaughter. In May, we extended free transcripts of sentencing remarks to victims of rape and serious sexual offences, in a year-long pilot. We will continue to look at how we can lower the costs of obtaining a court transcript.
Harpreet Uppal (Huddersfield) (Lab)
Former clients of the law firm SSB Law were unexpectedly pursued for adverse legal costs following the installation of defective cavity wall insulation. I understand that the Solicitors Regulatory Authority has opened an investigation. Will the Secretary of State review the situation urgently, including establishing a cross-Government working group on the matter?
Heidi Alexander
I am aware from correspondence that I have received, as the Member of Parliament for Swindon South, that there are significant concerns about the collapse of law firms such as SSB Solicitors, Axiom Law and McClure. As my hon. Friend said, the Solicitors Regulation Authority is looking at this, as is the Legal Services Board, and I shall be happy to speak to her further to provide an update.
Sir David Davis (Goole and Pocklington) (Con)
The Justice Secretary will be aware that the Criminal Cases Review Commission took 17 years to overturn the conviction of Andrew Malkinson, an innocent man, even though DNA evidence exonerating him was available from the fourth year; and his is not the only such case. Has the Minister any intention of addressing the resources, regulation and management of the CCRC to ensure that innocent people are not left incarcerated for many years?
Heidi Alexander
What happened to Mr Malkinson is appalling, both for him and for the victim of the crime. It is vital that lessons are learned. As the right hon. Gentleman will know, following the publication of the Henley review of the CCRC’s handling of Mr Malkinson’s case, the Lord Chancellor’s view is that the current chair is unfit to fulfil her duties. As for resources, the amount that the CCRC has received in recent years has risen, and we will continue to keep that under review.
Will Stone (Swindon North) (Lab)
As the Minister will know, one of the factors that can contribute to backlogs in courts is the existence of basic maintenance problems with the buildings, which prevents cases from being heard. In Swindon this year, we had a serious fire which resulted in one of the courtrooms being closed and cases being transferred elsewhere. What investment is being made in courts in places such as Swindon to ensure that justice can be delivered swiftly?
Heidi Alexander
I am very pleased to be responding to a fellow Swindon Member, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving me the chance to mention our home town during my first ministerial outing. I should add that I am also grateful to local judiciary court staff and justice stakeholders for their work in maintaining justice during that incident in Swindon. As the Lord Chancellor said earlier, ensuring that buildings are maintained effectively is critical to the delivery of justice.
Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Stamford) (Con)
My constituent was brave enough to report her husband for the abuse that he put her through. He has just been released from prison on two conditions: he would be tagged and he was not allowed to go into her village. He has not been tagged because the Probation Service says that it does not have enough tags and there is a technical fault, and he entered her village on his first day out of prison, staying overnight. He was on her street, and his family knocked on her door. Will the Secretary of State please respond to my letter about my constituent, who feels extremely vulnerable? Will she also confirm that there are enough tags, and that in cases such as this there will be not just a verbal warning—which is all that her husband received for his actions—but remedial repercussions?
Shabana Mahmood
I am not aware of the correspondence to which the hon. Lady has referred, but I will chase it up and ensure that she receives a comprehensive response.
Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith and Chiswick) (Lab)
The coronial system is a mess, with substantial backlogs, a lack of representation for bereaved families, and erratic use of prevention of future deaths reports. Will the Secretary of State consider reforms to deal with these problems? If she needs ideas, there is a very good report from the Justice Committee.
Alex Davies-Jones
I concur: there is an excellent report from the Committee, to which the Government will respond in due course. I am well aware of some of the issues with the coroners and reporting deaths for bereaved families and I should be delighted to discuss them further with my hon. Friend.
Helen Whately (Faversham and Mid Kent) (Con)
Catapults are not classed as offensive weapons, but they are being used increasingly in my constituency to injure and kill livestock and pets. Will the Minister responsible for such matters agree to meet me to discuss how we can deter these people and stop their use of catapults to kill?
Shabana Mahmood
I suspect that that may be a matter for my colleagues in the Home Office, but I will happily liaise with the relevant Minister and ensure that the hon. Lady receives a response.
Ukraine
(2 months, 3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I will make a statement on Ukraine, but may I first reflect on last week’s dreadful news of the death of Royal Naval pilot Lieutenant Rhodri Leyshon? On behalf of this House, I pay tribute to him. He was a consummate professional to his colleagues and was dearly loved by his family. He will be sorely missed by so many, and the thoughts of this House are with them today.
It has now been 930 days since Putin launched his full-scale illegal invasion of Ukraine—930 days in which Ukrainian forces have fought heroically while communities have endured relentless attacks. Children have been stolen to Russia, and families have seen their homes destroyed. Yet, throughout everything, Ukraine has stood tall in the face of Russian aggression. Since day one, when I was the shadow Defence Secretary and sat in the place now occupied by the hon. Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge), this House, and our country, has been united for Ukraine. In opposition, Labour backed every package of military aid, every sanction on Russia and every scheme to support civilians, such as Homes for Ukraine. I know the Opposition will continue to work with the Government in the same way, because this House stands united for Ukraine.
I have been proud of UK leadership on Ukraine, and I am determined that it will continue. I am also determined to work across this House, so I will offer Opposition leaders regular intelligence assessments on the conflict. I will offer MPs of all parties regular Ministry of Defence and Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office briefings, the second of which took place in the MOD this morning. More than 100 colleagues from both sides of the House have attended the briefings, and the House will receive regular updates on the conflict from me.
Ukraine is a first-order priority for me as Defence Secretary, and for this Government. That is why, on the second day in the job, I flew to Odesa and joined President Zelensky and his team for the afternoon. I told him that the Ukrainians’ courage inspires the world. I also told him that this new Government will step up support for Ukraine at this critical moment. In our first week, we announced a new package of UK military support, including ammunition, missiles and artillery guns; a new commitment to speed up the deliveries pledged by the previous Government; and a promise to spend £3 billion on military support for Ukraine this year, next year and every year for as long as it takes.
In the weeks since, we have stepped up support even further. We have signed a new £3.5 billion defence industrial support treaty, hit the £1 billion milestone for the International Fund for Ukraine, advanced the UK-led maritime and drone capability coalitions, and agreed a new £300 million contract for artillery shells. At the Ukraine Defence Contact Group meeting in Ramstein on Friday last week, I announced a new £160 million production contract for air defence missiles. I also announced that the UK’s Operation Interflex, which has trained 45,000 Ukrainian troops since 2022, will extend beyond this year and throughout 2025. Our support is both short term and long term, entailing immediate provision and long-term production. We are training troops today and developing Ukrainian forces for the future. This approach gives the Ukrainians the confidence to plan, and it sends a signal to Putin that the UK and our allies will stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes.
There have been important battlefield developments during the past month. In the first week of August, Ukrainian forces launched a remarkable offensive across Russia’s border and into the Kursk region. This exposed the vulnerabilities of Putin’s frontline forces, and it demonstrates Ukraine’s ability to achieve surprise strategic attacks. It also helps to better defend Ukraine and its northern centres by pushing back against sites from which Russia can launch deadly attacks. Around 900 sq km of territory is now held by Ukrainian forces in the Kursk region, and this has put Putin under pressure. After initial disarray, Russian forces are now deploying to the area in greater numbers.
But eastern Ukraine continues to be Russia’s main focus, with tactical advances bringing Pokrovsk within approximately 8 km of the frontline. With Russia continuing to rely on infantry-led assaults, its casualties remain high and rising. Daily casualties have doubled from this time last year, with Russia averaging more than 1,100 a day killed or wounded in July and August alone. Meanwhile, recent Russian air bombardments have been some of the most intense since the start of the war. President Zelensky stated on Friday in Ramstein that 4,000 missiles and drones were fired at Ukraine in the last month, targeting critical national infrastructure and attacking civilian centres, including Poltava and Lviv in the last week. Since 2022, the impact of this has been that Russia has destroyed or captured more than 50% of Ukraine’s power generation capacity, forcing Ukraine to implement power outages with winter approaching.
Meanwhile at sea, Ukraine has scored some significant successes, including driving Russia’s fleet out of the western Black sea to reopen export trading routes and destroying or damaging 26 Russian naval vessels operating in the Black sea, including a Russian Kilo class submarine just last month. Despite these notable achievements, Russian pressure across the whole of the frontline will continue in the months ahead. Russian industry remains on a war footing, Russian artillery is outfiring Ukraine by at least three to one, and Russia is also conscripting or recruiting 400,000 additional soldiers this year. For the coming weeks, two things are clear: Ukrainians need to strengthen their frontline in the east and look to hold the territory in Kursk. The longer they hold Kursk, the weaker Putin becomes. The longer they hold Kursk, the better defended Ukraine will be.
This was discussed at the US-led Ukraine Defence Contact Group that I attended last Friday with other Defence Ministers and President Zelensky. This was where military support and unity for Ukraine were strengthened among 50 allied nations, and where the US Defence Secretary Lloyd Austin served an important reminder to everyone:
“If Ukraine is not free, the world is not safe.”
This is why the defence of the UK starts in Ukraine. If President Putin prevails in Ukraine, he will not stop at Ukraine. If big nations redraw international boundaries by force, the sovereignty and security of all nations is undermined. That is why UK support, alongside allies, is so important: military, economic, industrial and diplomatic support.
I also want this House to know that we are seeing clear growing signs of Russian aggression beyond Ukraine. NATO allies are reporting Russian drones violating their airspace. The heads of the UK and US security services have confirmed that Russian intelligence is conducting a “reckless campaign of sabotage” across Europe, and last week the National Cyber Security Centre revealed that Russia’s specialist GRU unit is conducting offensive cyber operations directed at Governments and civilian infrastructure. Putin is targeting our security. He is targeting our way of life.
We face a decade of growing Russian aggression, but this is a Government who will protect our people and our country. We will actively deter and defend against Russian threats, working in partnership with allies. That is why, as a new Government, our defence policy will now be NATO first. As we approach 1,000 days of war, this conflict is at a critical moment. That is why the UK is stepping up support. Because this is not just Ukraine’s struggle; it is our struggle too. Ukraine is fighting to regain its sovereign territory, but it is also fighting to reinforce peace, democracy and security in the rest of Europe.
James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for early sight of his statement, and for the briefings he has provided to me and all parliamentary colleagues. I associate myself and my party with the condolences he expressed regarding the tragic death of Lieutenant Leyshon.
As we have confirmed previously, I reiterate without reservation that, as Labour did when in opposition, we will continue to do everything possible to support the Government over Ukraine. We remain steadfast in our total condemnation of both Putin’s illegal invasion of Ukraine and his conduct of the war, during which he has shown no regard for human life, even, it would appear, that of his own service personnel, with losses now at terrible levels on all sides. Indeed—this was one of the Secretary of State’s most striking points on the operational situation—it is an extraordinary testament to the brutal disposition of the Putin regime that their strategy continues to rely on the mass sacrifice of infantry personnel.
That said, the Secretary of State is surely right to remind us that, despite the extraordinary naval success Ukraine has enjoyed in the Black sea and the surprise incursion into Kursk that has thrown Putin’s regime into confusion, Russia remains a formidable foe and nothing at all can be taken for granted. On the contrary, it is clear that the UK must continue to do all it can to support Ukraine’s Government, people and armed forces.
On the Conservative Benches, we are proud of the role our Government played in showing real leadership in respect of Ukraine. If Ukraine had fallen early, the world would have been in a precipice situation akin to the late 1930s, but we made a huge difference to avoiding that outcome by being the first nation to train Ukrainian troops, the first to provide main battle tanks and, in particular, the first to provide long-range weapons. In August, President Zelensky commented that Britain’s support for Ukraine has slowed down recently. What assessment has the Secretary of State made of those comments?
On these Benches, we recognise that a key part of our leadership has been bringing other allies on board, which must continue in key operational and logistical decision making. Nevertheless, we have also shown leadership as a sovereign nation that believes wholeheartedly in Ukraine’s fight for freedom. As such, I confirm that we would have no hesitation in supporting the Government in continuing that leadership were they to confirm that the Ukrainian Government have maximum freedom of operation with regard to all the munitions we have supplied, including long-range missiles.
On the provision of additional munitions and the latest news shared by the Secretary of State, I welcome the announcement of £160 million for air defence missiles to be produced, of course, in Belfast. That underlines the intention we had in government, when the latest round of support commenced, to ensure a maximum degree of benefit for the UK defence sector in our support for Ukraine. Will the Secretary of State confirm that that remains a top priority and that, as we supply Ukraine with more and more drones across defence, he will ensure that we rapidly learn the lessons of their deployment so that we can build the ecosystem for our own sovereign uncrewed sector?
We agree that supplying Ukraine with arms has been the right thing to do but—and the public feel this very strongly—that must be accompanied by the replenishment of our own stockpiles and platform inventory. A top priority of our funded, timetabled commitment to 2.5% was an additional £10 billion to replenish our munitions. Is the Secretary of State still committed to that extra £10 billion for munitions? Can he confirm that the delay in setting out a clear timetable to 2.5% will not lead to the deferment of any major munitions orders, either this financial year or next?
The Secretary of State spoke of Russian artillery outfiring Ukraine by 3:1, and he knows the crucial importance of industrial output. That being so, does he recognise that we must urgently fire up production across our own defence sector by committing to 2.5% as soon as possible?
Finally, one lesson from Ukraine is the vital importance of maintaining air superiority in battle. In relation to our future combat air capability, I asked the Secretary of State a set of written questions on 29 July on the sixth-generation global combat air programme spending, and he has to date answered only the questions on historical spend, not those on the current financial year. Will he therefore confirm whether his Department will be deferring any spending on GCAP planned for the current financial year?
John Healey
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his support, his tone and his commitment to continuing to back further military aid to Ukraine, including the £160 million contract for lightweight multi-role missiles that I announced last week. He talked about the “mass sacrifice” of Russian personnel, and he is right. President Putin is a leader who shows contempt for the lives of his own soldiers.
On UK leadership, I have set out to the House my determination to maintain that leadership in the support for Ukraine, and demonstrated how we stepped that up in the first week, in the weeks that followed and last week at Ramstein. In terms of the lessons for drones, their deployment and our work with Ukraine, we are learning those lessons. We need to speed that up. Given the hon. Gentleman’s previous job, he will be well aware of the implications for the way in which we procure and contract for capabilities, both for export and for our stockpiles. On stockpiles, we have—as he will also know—so far spent £1 billion in the UK on replenishment. We have plans to build that, because we need to boost not just production, but the productive capacity of UK industry, so that we are capable of demonstrating that it can be scaled up in the face of future threats in a way that is not apparent at present.
The hon. Gentleman asks about long-range missiles. I have to say that only Putin benefits from an open debate about those sensitive issues, and I will not comment on operational discussions. There has been no change in the UK’s position. We continue to provide military aid to Ukraine, as I have set out, to support its clear right to self-defence and in line with the operation of international humanitarian law.
On the question of 2.5%, we will increase defence spending to 2.5% of GDP. The last time the UK spent 2.5% of GDP on defence was in 2010, when I last stood at this Dispatch Box as part of the previous Labour Government. In 2010, the Conservatives cut defence spending: they never matched 2.5% in any of their 14 years in office. My priority will always be to ensure that this country is well defended. In the face of growing threats, we will do more to make Britain secure at home and strong abroad.
Derek Twigg (Widnes and Halewood) (Lab)
I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement and the 100% commitment to supporting Ukraine, as we have seen previously. I welcome his statement about the investment in LMM defence. Can he say a bit more about the scope of that?
John Healey
I have said that Ukraine is my first-order priority, and I was in Odessa on my second day in the job. I have now had the privilege of meeting President Zelensky four times while in post, and I have met his Defence Minister six times. Like the previous Government, we consistently try to respond to the needs that Ukraine says it has for systems and ammunition. At the moment, above all, it needs new supplies of ammunition and stronger air defence systems capable of taking down Russian missiles and drones at different distances. While the US made a commitment at Ramstein last week to an extra $250 million in air defence systems, we made a commitment of an extra £160 million through a short-range modern air defence system—650 LMMs, with production under way—the first of which will be delivered to Ukraine before the end of the year. We are stepping up the support that we pledged for Ukraine and speeding up the support that we deliver to Ukraine.
Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)
On behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I wish to add to the tributes that others have paid to Lieutenant Rhodri Leyshon. He served with the Commando Helicopter Force in 846 Naval Air Squadron at Yeovilton. The Royal Navy said that Rhodri was one of their
“most trusted and highly capable aircraft captains and instructors”.
Our thoughts are with his family.
I am reminded of the saying “train hard, fight easy”. It is attributed to the 18th-century Russian commander Field Marshal Suvorov, but the Russians are not practising that today, sending to the front Russians who have had as little as two weeks’ training. By contrast, the training that has been provided under Operation Interflex has enabled Ukrainian troops to hold ground and exploit Russian weaknesses. The Liberal Democrats welcome the announcement last week at the Ukraine Defence Contact Group that Operation Interflex will continue until the end of 2025. Indeed, we have welcomed announcements on Ukraine from the current Government and the previous Government, and we would not want to see any party political capital sought from the solid British support for Ukraine.
We have seen some failures by the British state in recent years to plan for contingencies, whether post-invasion planning for Iraq or for a non-flu pandemic. We have discovered that sometimes in the British state there is a little bit of “hope for the best”.
On support for Ukraine by the United States, what contingency planning is being undertaken for an uplift in our support for Ukraine—and by other states in the Ukraine Defence Contact Group—in the event that a gap opens up with a US Administration under Trump and Vance?
John Healey
I am sure that Lieutenant Leyshon’s family will appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s comments.
The outcome of the US presidential election will be determined by the American people. This country has a deep relationship with the US: it is our most important security ally, and we are its most important intelligence ally. The relationship goes back decades and has survived the ups and downs of the political cycles on both sides of the Atlantic. We are determined that it will do so again, whatever the result of the election.
On the question of training, I cannot match the hon. Gentleman in citing 18th-century military figures, but I can say that the mismatch between the level of training that we and allies are trying to provide to Ukrainian troops is part of the attempt to counter the outmatch in numbers on the Russian side. I can confirm to the House that that includes not just the 45,000 Ukrainian troops trained so far under Operation Interflex since Putin’s invasion, but the 93 F-16 pilots trained in English and technical matters as well as flying, and almost 1,000 Ukrainian marines trained by the UK, working with allies. That is why I was able to make the announcement last week at Ramstein that this important UK training effort, linked into the new NATO arrangements, will be part of the way that we equip Ukraine forces for the future to be better prepared and trained than their Russian adversaries.
Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)
Let us be under no illusion: in the face of Russian aggression and invasion, the defence of the UK starts in Ukraine. My right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary was right to focus not only on the immediate challenges facing Ukraine but on the longer-term imperatives. Does he agree that the UK-Ukraine friendship is not just for the short term or for as long as it takes, but must endure in the years and decades to come?
John Healey
I do indeed. A lot of attention is given to military aid to support Ukraine’s short-term needs—its immediate battlefield requirements—but in the longer term we need to reinforce Ukraine’s capacity to produce for itself. That is why an important element of the steps we have taken to step up support for Ukraine, since the election just two months ago, has been to sign a defence export treaty, which I was privileged to sign with Defence Minister Umerov in No. 10 Downing Street. It provides some £3.5 billion-worth of export credit guarantees that will help us do more to get the equipment Ukraine needs manufactured and exported, and into Ukrainian hands for its fight against Putin’s invasion.
Sir Gavin Williamson (Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge) (Con)
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his statement. People in Ukraine are facing great challenges, and we can see how much resource Russia is throwing at the situation. Most colleagues on the Government Benches feel it is time for Storm Shadow to be allowed to be used with freedom by the Ukrainian people. Will the right hon. Gentleman set out the legal restrictions that are stopping that from happening? Conflicting briefings have been coming out of Government.
John Healey
That is not a matter I am prepared to discuss openly, as such a debate would benefit Putin. The principle upon which this country has given, and will continue to give, weapons to Ukraine is that those weapons support Ukraine’s defence and its right to self-defence as a sovereign nation. To do so, across the board, does not preclude Ukraine from striking targets in Russia, if that is part of that determination and strategy for self-defence and provided it is within the bounds of international humanitarian law.
Blair McDougall (East Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Without wishing for one second to diminish the threat of Putin’s Russia or the sacrifices that Ukrainians continue to make, I note that Moscow’s airport was closed by Ukrainian drone attacks this morning, that the Russian central bank will raise interest rates to 18% on Friday, and that half a million Russian troops have been killed. All of that has been inflicted by a country that is a third of the size of Russia. Does the Secretary of State share my frustration that so many people in the west seem to accept the misinformation war—Putin’s version of events that this war is going swimmingly for him—when any rational assessment of the events of the last two and a half years shows that they have been an absolute catastrophe for Russia?
John Healey
My hon. Friend is right. Part of the battle that Putin is waging is with his own people—to control their freedoms, including taking steps to assassinate political opponents, and their right to freedom of information. One thing that has put President Putin under pressure is that Ukraine has taken 900 sq km of territory in the Kursk region to defend its own cities and centres in the north. That has brought home to President Putin and the Russian people the consequences of his aggression, and shown that this is not a special operation, simply confined to Ukraine. Ukraine has the right to self-defence. In doing so, Ukraine is trying to defend itself better by striking targets in Russia from where the Russians are launching the deadly attacks from which Ukrainian civilians, cities and power systems have suffered for too long.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
What assessment has the Defence Secretary made of Operation Renovator and how does he plan to change it?
John Healey
The right hon. Gentleman asks a question with a good deal more information than the rest of the House. I will write to him with the detail he seeks rather than trying to give a superficial answer from the Dispatch Box.
Dan Carden (Liverpool Walton) (Lab)
I welcome the Defence Secretary’s statement, especially what he said about the deepening military and industrial strategy between the United Kingdom and Ukraine. There is clearly a growing alliance building between Russia and Iran, united in undermining democracy and risking further proxy wars. Will the Defence Secretary give his assessment on how the UK Government seek to influence Iran?
John Healey
My hon. Friend follows these matters closely and speaks with authority in the House on these things. We have been warning—in fact, the previous Government were warning too—about the deepening security alliance between Iran and Russia. Part of the declaration, made alongside international partners, at the NATO summit in Washington warned Iran that any transfer not just of drone technology, but of ballistic missile technology to Russia would be regarded as a significant escalation. The House can take a broader lesson from my hon. Friend’s point: Iran’s destabilisation is not a malign influence that is simply felt throughout parts of the middle east, but has wider repercussions, which is why Iran is one of the most serious threats to this country in the future.
Dave Doogan (Angus and Perthshire Glens) (SNP)
The Secretary of State can look forward to the same support for Ukraine’s defences from the SNP that the previous Government enjoyed. He mentioned increased air defences coming from the UK and the United States that will be in Ukraine before the end of the year. Russia will not wait until the end of the year before attacking civilian infrastructure, particularly energy infrastructure, so will the Secretary of State advise of any steps that have been taken to accelerate that increased air defence to the benefit of the people of Ukraine?
John Healey
I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s continuing commitment and support, given on behalf of his party, to stand with Ukraine in this House. For some months, the Ukrainians have been saying they want delivery of the pledges of military aid to help with their fight against the illegal full-scale invasion; they want what has been promised to be in their hands. That is why when I first met President Zelensky, on my second day as Secretary of State for Defence, I made a point to not just say to him, “Right, this Government are willing to step up the support we are offering,” but to tell him that we recognise that imperative and will speed up the support we offer. We will speed up the delivery of the big package of aid announced by the previous Government in April, and we will try to say to President Zelensky, “Where we pledge our support, we will give you a guarantee about the delivery times by which it will be in your hands, to strengthen your fight for your sovereignty and against this illegal invasion.”
Johanna Baxter (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
I strongly welcome the confirmation of the extension of Operation Interflex over this year and next. Will the Secretary of State join me in paying tribute to the hard work and professionalism of the UK troops involved in the operation, and the bravery of all the Ukrainian troops who are serving to protect their home?
John Healey
My hon. Friend reminds the House of a very important point. Numbers are one thing—we can say that the UK has led the Operation Interflex nations to train 45,000 Ukrainian troops—but more importantly the expertise of British and other allied soldiers has helped to provide the Ukrainian soldiers who are stepping forward to help defend their country with combat medical skills, battlefield training and survival techniques. I had the privilege to join the then Leader of the Opposition on Salisbury plain to witness some of the training and, later, to talk to Ukrainian troops who had finished their training at Brize Norton as they were poised to fly back to Ukraine. They were men very much like any in this House—lorry drivers, accountants and public relations executives—who are now, alongside their civilian colleagues, fighting for the future of their country and the right to decide, as a sovereign nation, its future in the world. I pay tribute to their bravery and to the skill of our armed forces in helping to train them for that task.
Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)
We have had a quote from Suvorov, and Napoleon famously said that
“the moral is to the physical as three is to one.”
After two and a half years of a barbaric Russian invasion, we cannot expect the Ukrainians to keep resisting with one hand tied behind their back. That means that, while the Russians attack power stations with long-range missiles at will with winter coming, and while they use glide bombs, which are brutally effective as tactical weapons on the frontline, we have to allow the Ukrainians full freedom of action to retaliate, not just as a military necessity, but to maintain their own morale. They must be bolstered to keep going. We could help them, and it is about time that we did that one thing.
John Healey
The right hon. Gentleman makes his very strong points in his customary way. This is about not retaliation, but self-defence, and he is quite right to say that the impact of the “moral” often outweighs the impact of the physical. When I updated the House on the physical—the 900 sq km of the Kursk region that is now in Ukrainian hands—the “moral”, or morale, impact on Ukrainian troops and Ukrainian citizens has been huge, so just as it is putting pressure on Putin, it is also lifting the spirits of Ukraine after nearly 1,000 days of a bloody battle against Putin’s invasion.
Alan Gemmell (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)
The Secretary of State spent the last Sunday of the election campaign in Prestwick, near our town’s world war two Polish war memorial. Within days, he was in Odesa and has stepped up and sped up the support that the UK is delivering. Does he agree that we have started as we mean to go on and that this Government will stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes?
John Healey
Yes, I do. It is a real pleasure to see my hon. Friend in his place. He brings expertise from a very wide field of foreign-policy affairs. I know that he will make a big contribution to this House, and if I made a small contribution to his election campaign, then I am doubly pleased to see him.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
The Secretary of State was a consistent supporter of Ukraine in opposition, so it is no surprise to hear that positive statement from him today. When he goes into battle with the Chancellor of the Exchequer for a good defence budget, will he remind her that, in the 1980s and the cold war, we regularly spent 4.5% to 5.1% of GDP on defence? Will he also assure the House that if America elects a President who does not wish to support Ukraine, the support for Ukraine by the remaining European members of NATO will intensify, not diminish?
John Healey
When, as a Government, we declare that we are ready, we show that by stepping up support for Ukraine. When we say that we will stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes for it to prevail, we mean it. Whatever the decisions of other countries may or may not be, I do not expect—whatever the result of the US elections—for the US to walk away from Ukraine. I said in my statement that if big countries with authoritarian rulers can redraw international boundaries by force, the sovereignty and security of all nations are left weakened.
On the question of defence spending, we are a Government who will not be having battles, as the right hon. Member put it. But I will go into the discussions that I will inevitably have with the Chancellor with a copy of our Labour manifesto, which, at the election, said that we are a Government who will spend 2.5% of GDP on defence. We will increase spending on defence, which is entirely the opposite of what happened when we had the change of Government in 2010. That was a Government who cut defence spending over those first five years by nearly 20%.
Tim Roca (Macclesfield) (Lab)
May I thank the Secretary of State for his statement, but also the Ministers who have provided cross-party briefings to colleagues? It really is appreciated. President Zelensky has called on partners to ensure that aid packages that are announced are delivered to Ukrainians as quickly as possible. Will the Secretary of State set out the actions that the Government are taking to ensure that aid to Ukraine is sped up?
John Healey
My hon. Friend is quite right: stepping up the pledges of aid is one thing, but speeding up the deliveries is another. That is why, on that second day in Odesa, I made an undertaking to the Defence Minister and President Zelensky that this was a Government who would do both. I am able to update the Defence Minister in Ukraine of progress on each of the elements of the package that we have pledged.
Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his statement. Even though he has announced nothing new today, I very much welcome that he is keeping this matter at the top of his and the nation’s agenda. Although he may be able to say little about this, will he forgive those of us who can speak for continuing to press for the west to untie the hands of our Ukrainian allies, so that they can strike back at those who are striking at them illegally and without justification? We know that that probably does not apply to this Government, but will he confirm that there are discussions with our allies about this matter? May I wish him every success in helping us to deliver the freedom and security of the world by breaking the stalemate in Ukraine that will overwhelm the west if we allow it to continue?
John Healey
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments and for his welcome to me. I note the points that he makes. On the point about my not announcing anything new, I just say to him that I did so on Friday last week. This is my first opportunity to update the House on the announcements of extra aid not just last week, but in the weeks over the summer recess—and, indeed, the package in our first week in office. This is the fourth sitting week since the election, and I hope that he will be reassured by my personal undertaking to ensure that I update the House on developments in Ukraine on a regular basis.
Kevin Bonavia (Stevenage) (Lab)
I, too, welcome the Secretary of State’s statement and his wholehearted commitment of this country to the defence of our ally in its hour of need in the face of Putin’s aggression. I am very pleased that my constituency of Stevenage is where many of the Storm Shadow missiles being shipped to Ukraine are manufactured, but, of course, manufacturing missiles and other armaments takes time. Will the Secretary of State explain what steps he and his Department can take to speed up that process?
John Healey
I will indeed. I am delighted to see my hon. Friend take his place on the Labour Benches as part of a Labour Government speaking up for Stevenage. His constituency is home not just to the production of some of the most important defence equipment, but to their development and the technology that goes into it.
We will build on some of the steps that the hon. Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) first took as Minister for Defence Procurement in the last months of the previous Government. I recognise that, with the nature of warfare changing so rapidly—exemplified by what we see in Ukraine—large platforms, which may take many years to produce, risk rapidly becoming outdated in the technology and systems that they cover. We have to be able to procure, we have to be able to develop as we procure and, once in the field, we have to be able to update on a regular basis. My hon. Friend must take it from that that this is a question not just of better value for money, but of more speed and clearer decision making in everything we do. That will be a hallmark of the way we develop our procurement reforms and our new industrial strategy, driven by the need to reinforce growth in this country as part of the success of this Government.
Iqbal Mohamed (Dewsbury and Batley) (Ind)
I congratulate the Defence Secretary and his Ministers and welcome them to their place. It is right that the UK stands with Ukraine to protect the lives and freedoms of the innocent people and the sovereignty of a free state. In addition to the military support provided, will the Secretary of State update the House on what diplomatic efforts are being made to negotiate an end to the Russian aggression, a full withdrawal from Ukraine and a return to peaceful co-existence as soon as possible?
John Healey
I will just say to the hon. Gentleman that it is the Ukrainians who are fighting, not us. It is the Ukrainians who will make the call about when to stop fighting and when to start talking, not us. Our task is to reinforce the Ukrainians now, to put them in the strongest possible position if and when they make that decision, and then to put them in the strongest possible position if they go into negotiations.
Graeme Downie (Dunfermline and Dollar) (Lab)
One of the key features throughout the statement and the discussion today has been the importance of consensus and co-operation in building a coalition. Will the Secretary of State give an update on what steps he intends to take next to ensure that we are supporting Ukraine with the broadest and best coalition possible?
John Healey
It was my first time at the Ramstein meeting on Friday last week—the 24th such meeting of that coalition, led by the US. Senior representatives of 50 other countries participated, and all pledged both more military support for Ukraine and to reinforce the unity with which we stand with Ukraine. I hope that that is not just reassurance for Ukrainians, but a signal to President Putin that we remain united, we remain resolute and, in the end, he will not prevail.
Sir Alec Shelbrooke (Wetherby and Easingwold) (Con)
I very much welcome the Secretary of State’s statement. He is quite right to outline the threats that Russia now poses to NATO territory. Last week, the NATO Parliamentary Assembly was in Alaska, looking at the missile intercept system, part of which is done through RAF Fylingdales. However, the UK and most of Europe is not protected by the missile intercept system. In relation to the comments he has made on the threat Russia poses, may I ask that, as we move into the strategic defence review, a NATO-led missile intercept system is something that he discusses? It is quite a hole in the defence of Europe at this moment in time.
John Healey
I grew up and went to school near RAF Fylingdales in North Yorkshire. Those big golf balls, when they were up, were a feature of the landscape for many years. I can say to the right hon. Gentleman that the strategic defence review, led externally but with the Department supporting it, has set out propositions that pose some of the questions he is interested in. I can confirm that this defence review will welcome and invite contributions from all parties, including not just those on the Front Bench but those on the Back Benches who are well informed and play roles in the wider defence and security world. I invite him to consider the propositions the review has published and to consider the sort of submission he might make as part of its deliberations; if he can do that, we will certainly welcome him.
Dr Scott Arthur (Edinburgh South West) (Lab)
I am proud of the role that service personnel in my constituency have played in training our Ukrainian brothers and sisters. I thank the Secretary of State for outlining the death toll of Putin’s brutal war; it is absolutely horrendous, and I hope that in time we will see Putin held to account for that and for the wider damage caused by the conflict. Despite the scale of the devastation, for many in the UK this war seems like quite a distant event. However, that could change almost overnight if one of the many nuclear reactors in the region is damaged. What discussions has the Secretary of State had with partners about that particular issue?
John Healey
May I pass on through my hon. Friend our thanks and tribute to any of his constituents who have been involved in the Interflex training programme to date? On the question of pursuing Putin for his war crimes, this is a Government—indeed, this is a country, which is a tribute to the previous Government—that has been willing to help fund the Ukrainian effort to gather the evidence required to prepare potential legal cases that will allow us to bring to justice those leaders in Russia who are responsible. The Ukrainian legal authorities are currently documenting 135,000 reported incidents of alleged war crimes in their country. That is a huge job and they cannot do it without our expertise and our support. Fundamentally, we are a Government that, in opposition, made the commitment to support the setting up of a special tribunal that potentially could try President Putin for the crime of aggression.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank very much the Secretary of State for his statement and his very clear commitment to Ukraine and its people. Everyone in this House supports exactly what he is saying and we thank him for it.
With the breaking news that Ukraine has sent drones to Moscow and central Russia, it is clear that technology is very much at the forefront of this conflict. Will the Secretary of State underline the technical support that the Government have made available to our Ukrainian friends, and say whether we can be of further assistance to bring this war to an end to allow Ukrainian children back into education and Ukrainian families to rebuild their lives?
John Healey
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who prompts me to say something that I did not give enough emphasis to. Never mind the Government support; the technology that he talks about, which is playing such a decisive role in the hands of the Ukrainians, is often developed and provided by the bright people in our and other countries’ industries. We pay tribute to all those in our British industrial and research companies, who in some cases are working with the Government and in some cases are working under contract to the Ukrainians to provide them with what they need to win this fight, to protect their country’s future and to regain their territorial integrity.
Mr Calvin Bailey (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
I thank the Secretary of State for his statement and for the early opportunities he has provided for MPs from all parties to be briefed on the ongoing situation in Ukraine. I welcome the Government’s commitment and his personal commitment to keeping Members of the House updated regularly. May I ask that he ensures that the lessons identified from Ukraine, in particular those of the formations and structures that are allowing the Ukrainian forces to be so effective, are fed into the SDR?
John Healey
Yes, indeed. My hon. Friend served until very close to the general election in a very distinguished and senior capacity in our forces, so I say to him, as I did to the right hon. Member for Wetherby and Easingwold (Sir Alec Shelbrooke), that the defence reviewers will welcome contributions from all sides of this House, particularly when Members who have such deep expertise are willing to make that available. I appreciate his welcome of this early statement and say to him that it will not be the last.
Point of Order
(2 months, 3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Today the House is to debate and vote on a vital issue that affects millions of our senior citizens: the winter fuel payment. If absentee Sinn Féin Members from Northern Ireland—who have received millions of pounds over recent years for not having done their job and not taking their seats—were to take their seats today and vote with many of us, including some Labour Members, the outcome might be different. Has the Speaker’s Office been informed that the seven Sinn Féin Members intend to take their seats in the House today and actually vote to oppose austerity, as opposed to just talking about it?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
I am grateful to the hon. Member for giving me notice of his point of order, but that is not a matter for the Chair.
Royal Assent
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that His Majesty has signified his Royal Assent to the following Act:
Budget Responsibility Act 2024.
Social Security
(2 months, 3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
14:59 - The House divided: - Ayes: 228 / Noes: 348 - Question accordingly negatived.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
Before we start, I inform the House that I will bring in the Secretary of State at the end of the debate. I call the shadow Secretary of State.
1.30 pm
Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con)
I beg to move,
That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, praying that the Social Fund Winter Fuel Payment Regulations 2024 (SI, 2024, No. 869), dated 22 August 2024, a copy of which was laid before this House on 22 August, be annulled.
The Labour party—the Government—said in the general election that it would bring in a new style of politics; politics centred on integrity and transparency. So it was that during the election, we held them to account and pressed them on tax, among other matters. We will find out, with the Budget at the end of next month, whether they were telling the truth—I have my suspicions. But we have already discovered one thing right now. We also pressed them on the winter fuel payment, from which millions of pensioners benefit up and down the country. Why? Because the Conservative party stands four-square behind our elderly. We believe that they should have security and dignity in their later years.
We received cast-iron assurances from the Labour party. In fact, the then shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the right hon. Member for Bristol North West (Darren Jones)—[Hon. Members: “Where is he?”] That is a good question. He said when pressed that the Labour party had “no plans” to do anything in respect of the winter fuel payment. Indeed, Labour candidates up and down the country gleefully pointed to their manifesto as having no mention of doing anything on this particular matter. But look at what has happened in a matter of a few short weeks. What happened to integrity? What happened to transparency? They went out of the window—broken promises already. The special contract that Labour sought to have with the British people based on integrity and decency has been smashed into a million pieces.
What is the impact of these measures? To a degree, we do not know—I will come to that—but we do know that nine out of 10 pensioners will lose the winter fuel payment of up to £300 at a most difficult time of year for millions of them, and a time when the energy price cap is going up by 10%. There is a suggestion from Labour Members that somehow only the wealthy—the millionaires—are affected. Far from it: two thirds of pensioners living below the poverty line will have this benefit removed. [Interruption.] Labour Members do not like hearing it. The 880,000 pensioners who we know are eligible for pension credit but are not yet receiving it will also suffer—[Interruption.] Labour Members chunter from sedentary positions, but although they say that they will have wonderful campaigns to get everybody who is entitled on to pension credit, in reality, even if they did so it would cost the Exchequer £3.8 billion, which is over twice the money that they say they will save. It is an absurd policy that their own plans are actively working against.
The haste with which this has been carried out is simply jaw-dropping. We do not have any impact assessments.
Mike Amesbury (Runcorn and Helsby) (Lab)
Will the shadow Secretary of State give way?
Mel Stride
I will in a moment. We do not know what the impact will be across the income distribution. No Member of this House knows what the impact will be within their own constituency. We do not know what the recommendation of the Social Security Advisory Committee will be. Why? Because it will not be given the information until tomorrow, we are told. And of course, the measure does not form part of what it should: a major fiscal event with the Office for Budget Responsibility scoring it and an economic and fiscal outlook accompanying it.
Mel Stride
I will come to the hon. Gentleman.
In fact, the only authority to comment thus far on these measures is the House of Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which said:
“We are unconvinced by the reasons given for the urgency attached to laying these Regulations and are particularly concerned that this both precludes appropriate scrutiny and creates issues with the practicalities of bringing in the change at short notice.”
That, I think, says it all.
Mel Stride
I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, who has been very patient.
Mike Amesbury
I thank the shadow Secretary of State for finally giving way. Will he clarify which Conservative leadership contender has called for the means-testing of the winter fuel allowance?
Mel Stride
I am left feeling that that intervention was barely worth the wait.
The fact that we even have a debate today is near miraculous given the resistance from the Labour party—we have it thanks to the scrutiny that the Conservative party is providing to the Government. We know that petitions have been railing against the measures: 100,000 people have signed the Silver Voices petition, a third of a million the 38 Degrees petition, and over half a million the Age UK petition. They are calling on the Government to think again. The press, particularly the Express newspaper, is doing a sterling job in bringing these matters to our attention. Even the trade union movement, including Unite, is pointing a finger at the Government and saying that they are picking the pockets of pensioners.
Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)
There is a sense of disappointment. Yesterday, the Health Secretary was dragged in here because a multimillion-pound-making consultant in the health industry is wandering corridors with access to papers, and today pensioners are being betrayed. Does my right hon. Friend agree that when people voted Labour, they thought that they were getting change and transparency? They were promised higher standards; they are getting the opposite.
Mel Stride
I thank my right hon. Friend for his appropriate intervention. He is right, of course. The only surprising thing is how remarkably quickly this has all fallen apart.
The Government will take responsibility for what has happened. They will blame us, with this fictitious black hole. The Leader of the House has suggested—I invite Labour Members to support her in this assertion—that the measure is necessary in order to avoid a “run on the pound.” It is just as well that Labour is not in charge of the economy, or we might end up in a real mess.
Deirdre Costigan (Ealing Southall) (Lab)
Does the shadow Secretary of State agree that if a local council had run its finances into the ground, in the way that his party did to the country’s finances with a £22 billion black hole, he would have called in the commissioners in the morning and instigated swingeing cuts? Can I ask him—[Interruption.] Given that that is the case, and that he now seems to have decided that his party no longer cares about balancing the books, will he apologise—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
Order. I call the shadow Secretary of State.
Mel Stride
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. That slightly lengthy question might be better addressed by way of a rather lengthy letter to the leaders of Birmingham city council.
Of course, all politics is about choices, and what this Government have done is cave in to their trade union paymasters. They have settled way above inflation. Junior doctors—22%. Train drivers—14%. They have stood up for their trade union paymasters on the backs of vulnerable pensioners, and that is not right. If it is not the case that the trade unions are running the Labour party, hands up everybody on the Government Benches who has not received money from the trade unions for their campaigning or their private office. [Hon. Members: “One!”] One person. Therein lies the truth about who is running the Labour party.
Of course, we have seen all of this before. Under the last Labour Government, we had the 75p pension increase, we had Gordon Brown’s stealth tax on private pensions—£118 billion in total—and was it any surprise that we ended up with the fourth highest level of pensioner poverty across the whole of Europe?
Gareth Snell (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab/Co-op)
The right hon. Gentleman talks about choices and pensioners. When his party chose to suspend the triple lock in 2021 and give a below-inflation increase to pensioners, costing them £500, what was his concern then? Why did he say nothing?
Mel Stride
The hon. Gentleman is entirely wrong. We went into the election promising the triple lock plus. Unlike his party, under which millions of pensioners are going to be dragged into income tax spend, many of them for the first time, we were prepared to stand up and say that we would not do that.
Jim Shannon
I commend the right hon. Gentleman and his party for bringing forward this issue, which is massive for my constituents and those across the whole United Kingdom. I say this with respect to the Labour party: this policy does not conform to any Labour party policies that I have seen in the past. Pensioners who have contacted me say that they are concerned because the threshold is too low, because pension credit will take nine weeks to process even if it gets to the 28% who are eligible in Northern Ireland, and because the £400 that the Labour Government have approved will not come until spring next year. Those are three reasons why the motion has to be supported.
Mel Stride
The hon. Gentleman is entirely right, as always, and I completely agree with every word that he has just said.
We are the party of the triple lock, and we were the party of the triple lock plus. We are the party that has raised the state pension by £3,700 since 2010, and we are the party that has seen 200,000 fewer pensioners in absolute poverty since we came to office. That is now going to go into reverse.
I will now, rather more gently and rather more quietly, make an impassioned plea to Government Members: look to your conscience. You know in your hearts that these measures are wrong, that the Labour party has broken its promises, and that these measures will lead to untold hardship for millions of elderly and vulnerable people right up and down the country. You now have an opportunity to join with us and put a stop to it.
Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
Before I start, I want to thank the House for putting its confidence in me to chair the Treasury Committee for the term of this Parliament. I am the servant of this House, and I will question without fear or favour those who appear before us. I look forward to engaging with the new Members I have yet to get to know. I also declare an interest: my husband has been in receipt of the winter fuel allowance, but if the vote changes that today, he will no longer receive it. For his own vanity, I should add that it is the lower limit.
The decision that we are being asked to make today is a difficult one, but sadly it will not be the only difficult decision facing the new Labour Government. Before the general election, I had the privilege of chairing the Public Accounts Committee for nine years. In that role, I saw all of the impacts on public finances—current, past and future. When I heard my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West and Pudsey (Rachel Reeves) talk about the challenges ahead and the dire consequences, I would say, “You think it’s that bad; I know it’s a lot worse.” We have heard of the Chuckle Brothers, but I described us as the Misery Sisters, because when she said it was bad, I said it was going to be worse. That is the reality. The chickens are coming home to roost on the spending of the previous Government.
We saw a number of problems, which I laid out in my last annual report as Chair of the Public Accounts Committee—factually accurate information. The NHS capital budget was raided to pay for day-to-day expenses, but the backlog of capital expenditure in the NHS was £10.2 billion in the year ending 2022.
Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)
As I served with the hon. Lady on the PAC, I warmly congratulate her on her election as Chair of the Treasury Committee. The House has made a very good choice.
Members of the Rayleigh, Rochford and District Association for Voluntary Service, whom I met last Friday, were genuinely worried about this policy. In a nutshell, their argument was that if people on very modest incomes are now frightened to heat their homes, that could lead to illness for many of those people, who will then present themselves to hospital and increase the winter pressures on A&E. By that method, it would be a false economy. The game is not worth the candle. What does the hon. Lady, whom I respect, say to that?
Dame Meg Hillier
I thank the right hon. Gentleman, with whom I had the pleasure of serving on the Public Accounts Committee. That is an example of how the House works closely together; most people would not think that we would agree on many issues, but on that Committee we produced every report in tandem.
The right hon. Gentleman will know that the pressures on the NHS are legion, and that many of the same people who will be suffering this cut to their income—we will come on to some of the measures to ameliorate it—will be the same people queuing and waiting for a hospital appointment. I know too many pensioners who do not get that hip replacement if they cannot afford it, but many are cashing in their savings, when they have them, to pay for a hip replacement so they can have quality of life. That is not the NHS that the right hon. Gentleman or I want to see in this country, so we need to make choices. One choice that this Government are making is to ensure that we pull the NHS waiting lists back. I could digress into the NHS for a long time, but if he will forgive me, I will move on.
Looking at our schools estate, under the last Government the Department for Education asked the Treasury for capital funding for schools of £5.3 billion in 2020. It was allocated only £3.1 billion, so there is a big backlog there.
In the defence sector there are many examples, but I will pick just a couple. Not a single nuclear submarine that has come out of service has yet been decommissioned in this country. It will cost around £500 million in 2018 prices for a single one, amounting to nearly three quarters of a billion pounds in 2018 prices to complete all of those. It is getting to a critical point. These decisions have been delayed and deferred for too long—in this case, by Governments of all colours, not just the last Government—and there is a gap of at least £17 billion in the defence equipment plan over 10 years.
There is also a lack of transparency about local authority spending because of the crisis in local government audit, which was overseen by the last Government. Not enough was done to deal with it. I could go on: there is a long list of expensive things that this Government now need to put right because of neglect over a period of time.
Several hon. Members rose—
Dame Meg Hillier
Let me continue for a moment. There are budget challenges this year, and many decisions that were made in recent Budgets will hit the public finances in 2025, 2026 or beyond, because there was either huge optimism about the state of economic growth or a deferral of painful cuts. Different Members of the House will have their own views.
Paul Holmes (Hamble Valley) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Member on the post to which she has been elected. She has just outlined a number of projects for which public money needs to be found. As the shadow Secretary of State outlined, the Government’s decision today will save £1.1 billion, and the replacements they are putting in place will cost £3 billion. How does that make economic sense, and how does it help the case that she is making?