Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Emma Reynolds)
This is the first time I have served under your chairmanship, so thank you, Dr Huq. I start by thanking my hon. Friend the Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) for providing the opportunity for this debate, and thanking her and others for their attendance.
The previous Government left us with unfunded and undisclosed spending commitments. It is very surprising that none of them is in their place for this debate. I may not know some of the new Conservative MPs, but I see empty places opposite me, although elsewhere there are hon. Members from other parties. Hon. Members are acutely aware of the £22 billion black hole in this year’s public finances left by the previous Government. The Office for Budget Responsibility has said that that represents
“one of the largest year-ahead overspends against…forecasts outside of the pandemic years”,
and the Chancellor only discovered this after the election. She has been clear that the decision about means-testing the winter fuel payment was not one that this Government expected or wanted to make, but given the in-year overspend that we uncovered, it is a necessary one. While protecting the poorest pensioners on the lowest incomes and with the greatest need, it is the right decision given the tough choices that we face.
To be very clear, I have spoken to a number of the hon. Members present about the Government’s decision, and there is actually fairly widespread agreement that the benefit should not be universal. Plenty of very wealthy pensioners who do not need it are getting transfers of £200—or £300, if they are over 80—into their bank accounts. It is right that we target the support at the poorest pensioners.
Neil Duncan-Jordan (Poole) (Lab)
Does the Minister agree that the problem is that wherever we draw the line, there will always be those just above who end up being poorer because they do not gain the benefit and do not get the passported access that gaining the benefit gives? Those individuals end up being worse off than the people who do claim. That is one of the problems with the means-tested system.
Emma Reynolds
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. For those just above the threshold, we have extended the household support fund. I urge hon. Members to work with me, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and the Deputy Prime Minister, who have written to local authorities to encourage them to ensure that those just above the threshold who are struggling get the support they need with bills. Obviously, that is discretionary, but we encourage local authorities to use that.
In addition, the Minister for Energy Consumers has met with the 15 largest energy providers and urged them to give all the support they can to those who are either likely to get into debt, or who are already into debt on their fuel bills. Support is available. There is also the warm homes discount, which is available to a larger cohort than those on pension credit. That will go live in October; again, I encourage hon. Members to join us in urging those struggling with their bills to apply for the warm homes discount, which is worth £150.
There are measures that the Government are taking. We are absolutely determined to boost the uptake of pension credit. It is a national scandal that up to 880,000 eligible pensioners are missing out on pension credit thanks to the previous Government. That is worth on average £3,900 per year, but obviously depends on personal circumstances. If people apply for pension credit and are successful, it passports them to all sorts of other benefits.
My hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes (Melanie Onn) rightly said that pensioners eligible for the savings credit part of pension credit are also eligible for pension credit, and therefore will be passported to receive winter fuel payments. It is quite a complex area, because it depends on whether someone is on the old or new state pension. Gordon Brown, when he was Chancellor, introduced the savings credit precisely to help the cohort of people that hon. Members are concerned about. George Osborne, on taking office, cut that benefit and made it unavailable for younger pensioners, so the cut off is 2016. That is something that we have been left; as my hon. Friend the Member for York Central said, it is not a legacy that we have chosen. I hope to work with all hon. Members present, who are clearly concerned about their constituents, to boost the uptake of pension credit.
Andy McDonald
I wholeheartedly agree that the Minister has inherited the most dreadful legacy from the absent Conservative party. Could she clarify for me the issue of take-up of pension credit? It currently sits at 63%; the ambition is 68%. What would happen to the proposed savings of £1.4 billion if pension credit was successfully rolled out to everybody entitled to it? Would those savings not disappear?
Emma Reynolds
The savings we have estimated—£1.4 billion this year and £1.5 billion in the next financial year—take into account a boost in the uptake of pension credit. We are absolutely determined to see an increase in that uptake, so the Secretary of State and I have already engaged with charities and local authorities. The Secretary of State spoke to Age UK and Citizens Advice about how we work together.
Last week was Pension Credit Week of Action. I encourage hon. Members to look at my X, although I know it is not so fashionable with everyone these days, for a video of a visit I did last week precisely to raise awareness of pension credit. Pension credit is not a simple process—we are looking at how to simplify it—but charities such as Age UK and Citizens Advice will help pensioners to go through it online. The online version is much simpler than the paper version, believe it or not, as the paper version has lots of questions that will not be applicable. We are also delivering a major campaign in print and broadcast media, including for people to reach out to retired families, friends and neighbours to urge them to check if they are eligible.
We will write to all pensioners about housing benefit; this is a question that one of my hon. Friends asked me yesterday. He had a constituent on housing benefit who was concerned that that would be taken into account as a form of income when the Government looked at his eligibility for pension credit. I confirm that that is not the case: housing benefit is not taken into account with regard to income. Please, I urge pensioners on housing benefit, who will be receiving a letter from the Department, to apply for pension credit.
As a Government, we are looking to merge the administration of housing benefit and pension credit to make that much simpler for people. The previous Government promised they would do that—some years ago, in fact—but were not going to until 2029. We think that that was slow decision making, and we are seeking to do it as soon as is operationally feasible. It is not a simple exercise, but it is something that we should do.
Calum Miller
I congratulate the Minister on the speed with which you have got up to speed in this fiendishly complex area. That in itself demonstrates a point. Do you not agree that this has been a premature decision, which has left many of our constituents deeply anxious about how they will heat their homes this winter? If you as the Minister are telling us that it is complex and not straightforward, and a difficult set of issues to navigate, how can we expect people worrying about illness, caring for their partners, or living on the poverty line because they are just above the pension credit limit, to get through this winter? Do you not agree that it would have been better to consider the issue in slightly slower time?
Dr Rupa Huq (in the Chair)
Order. The Clerk always reminds me that Members cannot use “you” because it means me, even when used with “Minister”. We have had it all morning.
Emma Reynolds
Dr Huq, I am sure Members will soon get used to the bizarre ways of this House.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bicester and Woodstock (Calum Miller) for his question. As I set out, the Chancellor was not expecting to do this but had to do it urgently because of the £22 billion black hole in our public finances. The black hole is in-year. What if we did not tackle it? Look at what happened under the previous Government, with Liz Truss’s mini-Budget: they put forward unfunded tax cuts and sent the markets into turmoil. Interest rates increased, putting mortgage rates and rents up, and that led to higher inflation.
People on fixed incomes, such as pensioners, would really suffer were we not to secure economic stability. Economic stability is the foundation of all that we want to do in Government. I say to pensioners and others across the country: this is a necessary step to make the improvements that we want in our NHS, bringing down waiting times, and in our schools, ensuring that we have the highest standards.
Emma Reynolds
I am afraid I cannot give way at this point, because I only have a few seconds left, but I thank my hon. Friend once more for providing the opportunity for this debate.
Unfortunately, given the fiscal inheritance, we have had to make some very difficult decisions. We made other decisions in July as well, such as pausing the hospitals programme to review what we will do with it. There are other decisions to come. However, it is right that we take the difficult decisions to protect our economic stability, and to drive growth in our economy, higher tax receipts and improvements in our public services. We are absolutely determined as a Government to deliver a better NHS, with waiting times down, and better public services, which will benefit pensioners and people across our economy and our country.
Question put and agreed to.