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Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon Lewis)
While the Northern Ireland economy does have its challenges, I am confident that it has a promising economic future, with its talent, great companies, entrepreneurial spirit and world-leading sectors and universities, as well as world-class hospitality, leisure and cultural offerings. We will continue as a Government to work with businesses, the Northern Ireland Executive and local partners to ensure that we not only get the economy back up and running but are laying the foundations for a sustainable, growing and stable economic future.
Julie Marson
In my constituency of Hertford and Stortford, the eat out to help out scheme has been a massive success and given our local economy a huge boost. Will my right hon. Friend let the House know what the uptake has been in Northern Ireland?
Brandon Lewis
I have not tested all the venues in Northern Ireland that were taking part in the eat out to help out scheme, but I did my bit to support the sector, as I am sure many colleagues around the House did. Comprehensive figures are not yet available, but I do know that over 1,500 restaurants in Northern Ireland signed up to the scheme in the first week of operation, highlighting just how important the scheme has been to give people confidence to go out and businesses a chance to see their customers again.
Mr Speaker
The next two questions have been withdrawn, so we will go to Sir Jeffrey Donaldson.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)
The Secretary of State will be aware that Northern Ireland businesses are concerned about the impact of the Northern Ireland protocol. Businesses I have spoken to report very little or no progress on export health certificates for animal-related food products being shipped from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. That potentially means increased costs for Northern Ireland businesses, and those costs will be passed on to Northern Ireland consumers. What will he do to ensure that arrangements are put in place to prevent that from happening?
Brandon Lewis
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his question. We recognise the unique position of authorised traders, such as supermarkets, with stable supply chains and comprehensive oversight of warehousing and distribution operations, moving pre-packaged products for retail sales solely in Northern Ireland. We continue to look at specific solutions for the trade, working with the trade. EHCs and accompanying notes for guidance will be made available from 1 November on the EHC form finder, to allow exporters and certifying officers to familiarise themselves with the requirements.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson
I welcome that news, and I want to follow that up with a question about the formal guidance that is required from the Government on the definition of unfettered access. Can the Secretary of State explain how a trader in Northern Ireland will get qualifying status in order to benefit from unfettered access in shipping goods from Northern Ireland to Great Britain and in the other direction? What extra processes would a trader in Northern Ireland face if they did not have qualifying status? The Secretary of State will be aware that this has significant cost implications for Northern Ireland businesses. Will he therefore commit to discussing this matter urgently with his colleagues in the Cabinet Office, to ensure that guidance is issued to Northern Ireland businesses on the definition of unfettered access as soon as possible?
Brandon Lewis
I can confirm that we are very keen to give as much guidance and information to businesses as early as possible. We are committed, as I said, to providing Northern Ireland’s businesses with unfettered access to the rest of the UK market. I am very clear about what that means. It means no import customs declarations as goods enter the rest of the UK from Northern Ireland. It means no safety or security declarations as goods enter the rest of the UK from Northern Ireland, no tariffs to be applied to Northern Ireland goods entering the rest of the United Kingdom in any circumstances, no customs checks, no new regulatory checks and no additional approvals required for placing goods on the market in the rest of the United Kingdom. For further reassurance, I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that we will introduce legislation for unfettered access shortly, and we will continue to provide that guidance.
Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)
I listened carefully to the very good questions put by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson), but I do not think that that will reassure businesses. The Northern Ireland Affairs Committee was very clear about what we already knew: the movement of goods from Britain to Northern Ireland will be subject to a number of administrative requirements; businesses will trade at a competitive disadvantage; and consumers in Northern Ireland are likely to see increased prices as a result. The economic facts are—and this is a real worry—that, for a population of 1.9 million, the burden on British firms will be too much, and they will cease wanting to export in large numbers to Northern Ireland. Export health certificates are a major concern and a major cost. I will check the record, but I think the Secretary of State just said that there will be more formal guidance. He has his own view. That is not an agreement, and there are additional costs, so what will the costs be for those businesses?
Brandon Lewis
I did say that notes for guidance will be available from 1 November this year. We are very clear that we are one single market—we are one customs union within the United Kingdom—and that is why we are very clear about the fact that we want unfettered access and we will deliver unfettered access for Northern Ireland businesses to Great Britain. We have already said that there will be some limited checks from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. We have announced the trader support scheme. The guidance that we issued just before the recess was warmly welcomed by Northern Ireland businesses. We continue to work with them so that, as we develop our processes, we ensure that there is good, smooth, fast, efficient delivery, as the protocol outlines, that does not disrupt the lives of people in Northern Ireland, in a way that works for business as well as the people of Northern Ireland.
Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)
On 7 August the Cabinet Secretary flew into Northern Ireland to announce a business package of £335 million. That money is apparently designed to alleviate the costs of border checks and Brexit red tape that the Prime Minister has repeatedly said does not exist. As a signed-up member of the Brexit Cabinet, can the Secretary of State assure Scottish businesses that the same level of financial support will be put in place to meet all the costs of Scotland being dragged out of the European single market?
Brandon Lewis
The support package that we put in place, which is £155 million for the IT systems we have outlined and £200 million for the Treasury support scheme, is in order to recognise the unique situation of Northern Ireland—one that Scotland has a rather different position to. I am very clear that one of the things we will be looking to deliver as we go forward is the ability for Northern Ireland to trade prosperously as part of the whole of the United Kingdom—something I am sure that Scotland will benefit from as well.
Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP) [V]
In line with the protocol, Border Force is currently recruiting for jobs in Northern Ireland advertised as open to UK nationals only. In the press this week, the Home Office claimed that this does not prevent those who identify as Irish from applying. But will the Minister accept, as indeed the Home Office did when this previously happened in 2018, that the words “Irish nationals are not eligible for reserved posts” does not reflect the rights framework in the Good Friday agreement, and will he ask the Home Office to rework the advertisement and the rules to make them compatible with Northern Ireland’s fair employment legislation?
Brandon Lewis
I am very happy to have a look at that. Obviously, as the hon. Lady will know, the Home Office outlined an update to the citizenship situation to rectify it for people so that however they wish to identify they can have the full rights that they wish to exert. However, I will happily follow up on that and come back to her.
Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con)
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Walker)
The UK Government will never be neutral in expressing our unequivocal support for the Union. We are committed to strengthening the link between our four great nations, levelling up the whole country. That is why the Prime Minister has created a Cabinet coimittee on Union policy implementation. Our commitment to Northern Ireland is demonstrated in the £2.2 billion we have provided to help fight coronavirus, including an extra £300 million announced at the summer economic update.
Elliot Colburn
May I begin by welcoming today’s news on same-sex marriage in Northern Ireland? Carshalton and Wallington residents have noticed that next year will be the centenary of the creation of Northern Ireland, so what plans does the Northern Ireland Office have to commemorate the United Kingdom as we know it today?
Mr Walker
I agree with my hon. Friend on both points. This centenary represents a significant national anniversary. In the new decade, new approach deal, the Government recognised that the centenary provided an opportunity to reflect on the past as well as to build for the future in Northern Ireland across the UK and internationally. We are committed to facilitating national recognition and international awareness of the centenary. On his recent visit to Northern Ireland, the Prime Minister announced the establishment of a centenary forum and a centenary historical advisory panel. This approach will offer us the opportunity to work with a broad spectrum of people to deliver an ambitious and exciting programme of events to mark this important national anniversary. Further details about the centenary programme will be set out in the autumn.
Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon Lewis)
There will be no new customs infrastructure in Northern Ireland, and we see no need to build any.
Rosie Cooper [V]
With just four months left until the protocol comes into force, the National Farmers Union has warned that a clear lack of guidance is threatening the trade in agrifood products—Northern Ireland’s largest import. So can the Secretary of State clear one thing up—will each agrifood product require an export licence certificate, costing up to £200, or not?
Brandon Lewis
As I have set out previously, the protocol obliges both the UK and the EU to seek to streamline trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland and to avoid controls at Northern Ireland ports as far as possible. As the hon. Member may well know, discussions are ongoing about the process by which this is conducted and the frequency. We want to bring the level of checks down to a proportionate and pragmatic level, as we have outlined before, for agrifoods and live animals. At Larne and Belfast there have been checks of one form or another in place since, I think, about the 19th century, and that is what we are building on. But there will be no new infrastructure.
Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon Lewis)
I will answer the substantive and supplementary questions together and just repeat what I said a few moments ago—there will be no new infrastructure in Northern Ireland for borders.
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
Tom Randall (Gedling) (Con)
Mark Fletcher (Bolsover) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon Lewis)
We welcome the formal designation of the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland to provide administrative support for the scheme. Victims should never have had to go to court to see such progress. The Executive must now move to ensure that the scheme can be opened as soon as is practical, so that applications can be processed and payments made to victims who have already waited too long. The implementation of the scheme, including timescales for delivery, is a matter for the Northern Ireland Executive, but I look forward to seeing them progress this issue as quickly as possible.
Julian Smith
Paddy Cassidy and Raymond Trimble have died since the pension and payment scheme became law, and many other victims are extremely ill. I urge my right hon. Friend to do whatever he can to provide the Executive with confidence that money will be forthcoming in the usual way through the block grant. Will he also do everything possible to dispel the horrendous myths that have been peddled about the payment scheme over the past few weeks? The scheme will primarily benefit civilians on both sides of the community who are desperate to have the recognition that they have been promised.
Brandon Lewis
My right hon. Friend makes a good point. He was intrinsically involved in driving forward this issue. Words fail me: it should never have taken this long to get to this stage and it should never have taken a court case. My right hon. Friend is quite right that the Northern Ireland Executive are funded for the scheme through the block grant, and he is also quite right that this is about recognising people who have suffered for far too long. He and at least four of the party leaders in Northern Ireland were keen to see this scheme move forward; thankfully, that will now happen—and yes, I will give all the support that I can and that the Northern Ireland Executive need to see the scheme deliver as quickly as possible.
Tom Randall
I, too, welcome the news that the Department of Justice has been designated to implement the victims’ payment scheme, but does my right hon. Friend share my disappointment that it took a court to tell Sinn Féin to stop playing politics and finally designate the Department?
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend is right. I have consistently expressed my disappointment—to say the least—at the lack of progress in establishing the scheme, as have the First Minister and others. It was wrong for Sinn Féin to hold up the process of designating the Department. I am pleased that it has now happened, but it is a shame that it took a court case.
Mark Fletcher
Last week, Sinn Féin’s Martina Anderson described victims of the troubles applying for the victims’ payment scheme as
“mainly…those who fought Britain’s dirty war”
or were
“involved in collusion.”
Will my right hon. Friend join me in condemning those grossly insulting comments to the victims, many of whom live in my constituency?
Brandon Lewis
The simple answer is yes. Particularly with people having waited so long, to see an insensitive, ill-advised and inappropriate comment like that was the last thing that anybody needed. It should never have been made in the first place, and we should all condemn it and move forward to make sure that victims get what they have morally and legally been waiting far too long for.
Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab)
May I begin by reflecting on the fact that this summer we lost the great John Hume, a peace campaigner and politician who, more than any other, is responsible for the peace these islands enjoy today? I am sure the whole House will join me in sending our deepest condolences to his extraordinary wife Pat, his family and our friends in the Social Democratic and Labour party.
Yesterday would have been the 40th birthday of Tim Parry who, along with three year-old Johnathan Ball, was killed by an IRA bomb in Warrington in 1993. The peace foundation set up in their name supports victims of terrorism nationwide, but at the end of this month that service will close unless Ministers deliver on the funding that they have promised in the House. In this week, of all weeks, will the Secretary of State step up and secure the future of this vital service?
Brandon Lewis
First, I join the hon. Lady in her comments about John Hume and his family. I was honoured to be able to attend the funeral, which was a great example of how something can be done so sensitively, delicately and appropriately, even at a difficult time such as with covid. It was a real honour to be there.
As I said earlier, a range of victims have waited too long for things such as victims’ pensions and victims’ payments, so we need to see that moving on. We need to see a whole range of areas moving on. I hope that, with the work we can do with the Northern Ireland Executive, not least with the introduction of the independent fiscal council, we can see the Executive start to allocate their funding and move on with these projects.
Louise Haigh
I think the Secretary of State may have misheard me: I was talking about the Warrington Peace Centre, which previously enjoyed funding directly from the Home Office. I hope he will consider that and raise it with his colleague the Home Secretary.
The father of Tim Parry, Colin, has said, on the anniversary of his son’s 40th birthday, that the appointment of Claire Fox to the House of Lords offends him deeply. Given her continued refusal to apologise for defending the Warrington bombing, may I ask whether the Secretary of State was consulted on her peerage? Has he raised any concerns with his colleagues in No. 10?
Brandon Lewis
As I think it has already been outlined, Claire Fox will be sitting as a Cross-Bench peer. She has already provided her own answer to that question, and I will let her words deal with the matter. I will certainly talk to the Home Secretary about the issue that the hon. Lady raises about the funding for the Warrington bombing. What we have seen over the past few weeks is that there is still a need and a determination for us to keep a focus on security issues. I also want to take a moment to pay huge credit to the Police Service of Northern Ireland and its partners for the amazing operation that they ran just two weeks ago, arresting some 10 people, which is probably the biggest step forward that we have seen in a generation in ensuring the peace and security of the people in Northern Ireland.
Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con) [V]
My right hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the £150 million that has been set aside in the New Decade, New Approach agreement with regard to legacy resolution issues, but the funding of the pension scheme is of concern to all parties, as it was to the Select Committee. Can he confirm that he will ensure that, through the block grant, moneys that are required on top of the £150 million will be forthcoming so that justice can be done and the money paid in a full and timely way?
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend the Chair of the Select Committee is absolutely right. This matter is devolved and it is for the Northern Ireland Executive to pay for through the block grant. Those discussions will go ahead in the normal way, but, as I have said, as the money is already there, this is something that the Executive can be moving on with. They can start getting this process going and start getting these payments out to the people who have already waited too long.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I also thank the Secretary of State for all he has done with regard to the victims’ pension fund. May I ask him to outline what steps have been taken to claw back the money from Sinn Féin that was spent on the court case that took place solely because of Sinn Féin’s refusal to do the right thing and appoint a Minister to oversee the fund. Sinn Féin should pay the legal fees.
Brandon Lewis
The court was clear that the Executive, through their action of not designating, or refusing to designate, a Department, which was down to the Deputy First Minister, were acting illegally. The hon. Gentleman puts forward an interesting proposal, which I am sure that the Finance Ministry, in terms of wanting to make sure that Northern Ireland’s finances are well spent, will consider properly.
Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon Lewis)
By the end of this year, the process of transition to our new relationship with the EU will be completed. I and colleagues across the Cabinet are determined to ensure that Northern Ireland benefits fully from the opportunities that that will bring.
Mr Carmichael
I am sure that all in business will welcome the announcement from the Secretary of State that there will be guidance given to all those trading in Northern Ireland by 1 November, but can he explain to the House how one formulates guidance for the implementation of a deal that has not yet been done, or will that guidance be written on the presumption that there will be no deal?
Brandon Lewis
As we did with the guidance that we outlined just before the House broke for the summer recess, we have done it in conjunction with our partners in businesses across Northern Ireland through the business engagement forum that we have put together. We are consulting with businesses about what they need to live on the protocol, and that protocol does give confidence to businesses about what will be in place next year.
Alun Cairns
Does my right hon. Friend recognise that the UK internal market is the cornerstone of simplicity in terms of uncertainty over attracting investment to all parts of the United Kingdom, and any detractors from the Government’s plan and policy to maintain the integrity of the UK internal market would be undermining the potential investment in their community.
Brandon Lewis
Absolutely right. My right hon. Friend makes a hugely important point. The UK internal market Bill will outline that integral structure of the United Kingdom as one customs union and one single market, which will give confidence to businesses and investors to the benefit of all our economies.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon Lewis)
I and ministerial colleagues speak regularly with our counterparts in the Irish Government. The protocol itself provides for a practical solution that avoids a hard border on the island of Ireland in all circumstances, including in the event that we do not agree a free trade agreement, while ensuring that the UK, including Northern Ireland, can leave the EU as a whole.
Dr Murrison
I am very grateful to the Secretary of State. He will know that small and medium-sized enterprises with business across the border are in a state of uncertainty at the moment, given what is potentially going to hit them in four months’ time. Given that, the trader support service announced last month is particularly welcome. What discussions has he had with trade organisations in Northern Ireland about the trader support service? When does he anticipate the service actually providing services to SMEs?
Brandon Lewis
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. We—not just myself, but ministerial colleagues—have had continual engagement with businesses. The Business Secretary and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster have both been in Northern Ireland engaging with businesses and representative organisations, as has my hon. Friend the Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office. We will continue to do that and we aim to have the scheme running in September.
Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con)
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Walker)
Self-isolation exemptions have been in place since 5 July for the whole of the United Kingdom for all international cast and crew working on qualifying TV and film productions. We have worked closely with the Northern Ireland Executive and the film and TV industry, which has been a major success in Northern Ireland and represents a significant part of its economy estimated to be worth £270 million a year. This has seen important projects such as “The Northman” and “Line of Duty” restart filming, bringing significant investment to Northern Ireland’s economy.
Joy Morrissey
Does my hon. Friend agree that the quarantine exemption arrangements could be the catalyst for reigniting the Northern Ireland film industry, where 49 locations were used for “Game of Thrones”, including Winterfell. Although the days of House Stark have passed, I hope that the exemption will allow for Northern Ireland to continue to be a beacon for the film industry across the world.
Mr Walker
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. As I said, over the summer we introduced the exemptions. We absolutely recognise what a crucial and important sector this is, and the benefits of its success can be seen across Northern Ireland, not least for the tourism industry. Local success stories such as “Game of Thrones” and “Derry Girls” benefit every part of Northern Ireland. Programmes such as “The Fall” have firmly established Northern Ireland as an ideal destination for film and TV projects. The restart of filming in significant projects shows that the industry can continue to achieve global success.
Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab)
Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Robin Walker)
The Government recognise that this industry is key to Northern Ireland’s economic success, with the sector in Northern Ireland valued at over £1.8 billion. Like many sectors, aerospace has come under immense pressure during the pandemic. That is why we put unprecedented support in place through the job retention scheme and the Bank of England’s covid corporate financing facility. Last week, I met Bombardier at its Shorts site and Stratospheric Platforms to discuss the challenges and opportunities for developing the sector and how the UK Government can support their success.
Stephanie Peacock
Ministers seem to be doing little more than shrugging their shoulders as the UK’s world-leading aerospace sector goes to the wall. When will they step in with sector-specific support?
Mr Walker
The UK Government have made available £2.1 billion to the UK aerospace sector through the covid corporate financing facility and additional flexibility for UK export finance, which is supporting £3.5 billion of sales in the next 18 months. I continue to work closely with my colleague the aerospace Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi). I am determined that we do support businesses in Northern Ireland, as across the UK.
Gavin Robinson
I trust that the Minister’s visit to Bombardier last week was successful. He knows how important aerospace is to the Northern Ireland economy, but he also knows that there is a cliff-edge coming in the job retention scheme and in the support for our aerospace sector in particular. He also knows that should redundancies continue and the situation gets worse, the skills will be lost and they will not come back. The time is coming. Talk is talk. We need to see action. We need to see a bespoke package of support for aerospace in Northern Ireland and across the United Kingdom.
Mr Walker
I absolutely sympathise with the point the hon. Gentleman is making, and the crucial importance of this sector and its skills to his constituency. The covid-19 outbreak has seen a severe impact on aviation and aerospace industries around the world. The UK Government have provided significant support to the sector, including the business interruption scheme and the job retention scheme. The Chancellor has confirmed that that commitment remains in place until October, but one of the things I discussed with Bombardier on my visit last week is the vital importance of maintaining that skills base. That is a point I will absolutely take to colleagues across government.
Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon Lewis)
The threat from dissident republican terrorism continues to be severe in Northern Ireland. The Government’s first priority is to keep people safe and secure across the UK. Terrorism, paramilitary violence and criminality have no place in Northern Ireland. They must not hold us back from progress towards a peaceful and prosperous future. As I said earlier, thanks to the hard work and professionalism of the Police Service of Northern Ireland and its partners, 10 people have recently been arrested and charged with a range of terrorism offences under the Terrorism Act 2006. Those arrests are the biggest step in tackling violent dissident republicans in Northern Ireland in a generation, and I thank the PSNI for its work.
Mrs Murray
What action have the Government taken to protect those who provided security in Northern Ireland, in both the police and military, from vexatious historical accusations?
Brandon Lewis
I thank my hon. Friend for her question. We as a Government are clear: we will put an end to vexatious claims against our brilliant armed forces. We are also determined to address the legacy of the troubles, as I set out in my written ministerial statement on 18 March, and we will deliver on that.
Mr Speaker
Order. That is the end of Northern Ireland questions, so we now come to Prime Minister’s questions. As we await that, may I wish the Leader of the Opposition a happy birthday?
Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)
The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson)
This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall have further such meetings later today.
Andrew Bowie
Three weeks ago today, the community in my constituency of West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine, and indeed I think the entire country, was rocked by the events on the railway line just south of Stonehaven: the tragic events in which three men—Brett McCullough, Chris Stuchbury and Donald Dinnie—tragically lost their lives. I am sure my right hon. Friend and indeed the whole House will join me in sending our deepest condolences to the family and friends of those three men today, as well as our thanks and heartfelt gratitude to the incredible men and women of our emergency services and multiple agencies who worked in incredibly difficult conditions to help the survivors from that incident.
The interim report is on the desk of the Transport Secretary as we speak, and I know that the full report will take time to run its course, as is only right, but what assurances can my right hon. Friend give my constituents that the serious questions that they have will be answered, that any recommendations will be implemented and that the Government will do everything they can to prevent an accident like this from ever happening again?
The Prime Minister
I thank my hon. Friend, and I know the whole House will want to join me in sending our condolences to the family and friends of Brett McCullough, Donald Dinnie and Christopher Stuchbury. I would like to join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to the extraordinary work of the emergency services and the public for the bravery that they showed. Britain’s railways are among the safest in Europe, partly because we take accidents like this so seriously, and therefore we must ensure that we learn the lessons of this tragic event to make sure that no such incident recurs in the future.
Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)
Can I join the Prime Minister in those comments about the tragic events of just a few weeks ago? Can I also begin by paying tribute to John Hume, who passed away during recess? John was a beacon of light in the most troubled of times. He will be seriously missed.
Let me start today with the exams fiasco. On the day that thousands of young people had their A-level grades downgraded, the Prime Minister said, and I quote him:
“The exam results…are robust, they’re good, they’re dependable”.
The Education Secretary said there would “absolutely” not be a U-turn; a few days later—a U-turn. We learned yesterday that the Education Secretary knew well in advance that there was a problem with the algorithm, so a straight answer to a straight question, please: when did the Prime Minister first know that there was a problem with the algorithm?
The Prime Minister
Perhaps I could begin by congratulating the right hon. and learned Gentleman on his birthday? I say to him, on the exams and the stress that young people have been through over the summer, that both the Secretary of State for Education and I understand very well how difficult it has been for them and for their families, going through a pandemic at a time when we have not been able, because of that pandemic, in common with most other countries in the world, to stage normal examinations. As a result of what we learned about the tests—the results—that had come in, we did institute a change. We did act. The students, the pupils of this country now do have their grades, and I really ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman whether he will join me in congratulating those pupils on their hard work, and whether he agrees with me that they deserve the grades they have got.
Keir Starmer
I have already expressed congratulations to all those students and I do so again, but I want to go back to my question, which the Prime Minister avoided. I know why he avoided it, because he either knew of the problem with the algorithm and did nothing, or he did not know when he should have. Let me ask again: when did the Prime Minister first know that there would be a problem with the algorithm?
The Prime Minister
As the right hon. and learned Gentleman knows perfectly well, Ofqual made it absolutely clear time and again that in its view the system that was in place was robust. Ofqual is, as he knows, an independent organisation and credit had to be given to its views. All summer long, he has been going around undermining confidence and spreading doubts, in particular about the return to school in safe conditions—[Interruption.] It is absolutely true. And today is a great day because the parents, pupils and teachers in this country are overwhelmingly proving him wrong and proving the doubters wrong, because they are going back to school in record numbers, in spite of all the gloom and dubitation that he tried to spread. It would be a fine thing if, today, after three months of refusing to do so, as pupils go back to school, he finally said that school was safe to go back to. Come on!
Keir Starmer
The Prime Minister is just tin-eared and making it up as he goes along. I am surprised—[Interruption.] The Education Secretary stood at that Dispatch Box yesterday and acknowledged that Labour’s first priority has been getting children back to school. That has been our first priority. I have said it numerous times at this Dispatch Box, and the Prime Minister knows it very well. He is just playing games.
The Prime Minister is fooling nobody. Even his own MPs have run out of patience. The vice-chair of the 1922 Committee, the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Sir Charles Walker), has said that the Government are
“saying one thing on Monday, changing its mind on Tuesday, something different presented on Wednesday.”
That sounds familiar doesn’t it? Another of his MPs, who wisely wants to remain anonymous, is perhaps in the Chamber today. He or she said—[Interruption.] I am speaking for you, because this is what was said by his own MPs. He or she said, “It’s mess after mess, U-turn after U-turn…It’s a fundamental issue of competence, God knows what is going on. There’s no grip.” His own MPs are right, aren’t they?
The Prime Minister
This is a Leader of the Opposition who backed remaining in the EU and now is totally silent on the subject. Now he has performed a U-turn. He backed that, and perhaps he still does. This is a Leader of the Opposition who supported an IRA-condoning politician who wanted to get out of NATO and now says absolutely nothing about it. This is a Leader of the Opposition who sat on the Front Bench—
Mr Speaker
Order. I think that questions are being asked, and we do need to try to answer the questions that have been put to the Prime Minister. It will be helpful to those who are watching to know the answers.
The Prime Minister
I think it would be helpful to all those who are watching to know—
Mr Speaker
Order. Prime Minister, I think I will make the decisions today. Come on!
The Prime Minister
Mr Speaker, if I may say so, I think it would be helpful to all those who are watching to know that this Opposition, and this Leader of the Opposition, said absolutely nothing to oppose the method of examinations that was proposed and, indeed, they opposed the teacher accreditation system that we eventually came up with. Is he now saying that those grades are not right, or is this just Captain Hindsight leaping on a bandwagon and opposing a policy that he supported two weeks ago?
Keir Starmer
The problem is that he is governing in hindsight, as well as making so many mistakes.
Mr Speaker, before I go on, the Prime Minister said something about the IRA, and I want him to take it back. I worked in Northern Ireland for five years with the Police Service of Northern Ireland, bringing peace. As Director of Public Prosecutions, I prosecuted serious terrorists for five years, working with the intelligence and security forces and with the police in Northern Ireland. I ask the Prime Minister to have the decency to withdraw that comment.
It is the same every time: pretend the problem does not exist, brush away scrutiny, make the wrong decision, then blame somebody else. This has got to change, because the next major decision for the Prime Minister is on the furlough scheme. The jobs of millions of people are at risk. The longer he delays, the more they are at risk, so will he act now, finally get this decision right and commit to extend the furlough scheme for those sectors and those workers that desperately need it?
The Prime Minister
What we are doing in this Government is getting our pupils back to school, in spite of all the doubts that the right hon. and learned Gentleman has tried to sow, and we are getting people back to work. What he wants to do is extend the furlough scheme, on which this country has already spent £40 billion. What we would rather do is get people into work through our kick-start scheme, which we are launching today—£2 billion to spend to support people, young people in particular, to get the jobs that they need. He wants to keep people out of work in suspended animation. We want to move this country forward. That is the difference between him and us.
Mr Speaker
There was a question about the allegation regarding Northern Ireland, and I was very concerned—that was the point I was making. I think that, in fairness, I am sure you would like to withdraw it.
The Prime Minister
Mr Speaker, I am very happy to say that I listened to the protestations of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, and I think they would have been more in order, throughout the long years in which he supported a leader of the Labour party—
Keir Starmer
When the Prime Minister has worked with the security and intelligence forces on prosecuting criminals and terrorists, he can lecture me. I asked him to do the decent thing, but doing the decent thing and this Prime Minister don’t go together.
This has been a wasted summer. The Government should have spent it preparing for the autumn and winter. Instead, they have lurched from crisis to crisis, U-turn to U-turn. To correct one error, even two, might make sense, but when the Government have notched up 12 U-turns and rising, the only conclusion is serial incompetence. That serial incompetence is holding Britain back. Will the Prime Minister take responsibility and finally get a grip?
The Prime Minister
I take full responsibility for everything that has happened under this Government throughout my period in office. Actually, what has happened so far is that we have succeeded in turning the tide of this pandemic, and, despite the negativity and constant sniping from the Opposition, we are seeing a country that is not only going back to school but going back to work. Britain is in the lead in developing vaccines and in finding cures for this disease—dexamethasone—and treatments for this disease. Not only that, but we are taking this country forward, despite the extreme difficulties we face. What I think the people of this country would appreciate is the right hon. and learned Gentleman and I, the Labour Front-Bench team and everybody across this House coming together, uniting and saying that it is safe for kids to get back to school. I must say that we still have not heard those words from him. Will he now say, “School is safe”?
Keir Starmer
I have said it so many times. School is safe. My own children have been in school throughout. There is no issue on this. The Prime Minister is seeking to divide, instead—[Interruption.] I wrote to him on 18 May, in confidence and in private, offering my support to him to get kids back to school. The only reason they were not back before the summer was because of his incompetent Education Secretary.
The Prime Minister will recall that before the recess I asked him whether he would meet the Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice UK group. I had the privilege of meeting the families on 15 July. They gave me incredibly moving accounts of how covid-19 had taken their loved ones from them. On Sky News last week, the Prime Minister was asked whether he would meet the families and he said:
“of course I will meet…the bereaved—-of course I will do that.”
But yesterday they received a letter from the Prime Minister saying that meeting them was now “regrettably not possible”. The Prime Minister will understand the frustration and the hurt of those families that he said one thing to camera and another to them. May I urge him to reconsider, and to do the right thing and find time to meet these grieving families?
The Prime Minister
May I say to the right hon. and learned Gentleman that it is absolutely typical of him that he should frame it in that way? Of course I am very happy to meet the families and the bereaved and I sympathise deeply with all those who have lost loved ones throughout this pandemic; we all feel their pain and their grief. But it turns out that this particular group he refers to are currently in litigation against the Government, and I will certainly meet them once that litigation is concluded. I say to him that it would be a better thing if, rather than trying to score points in that way, he joined together with this Government and said not only that school is safe to go back to—[Interruption.] By the way, that is the first time in four months that he has said it, so I am delighted to have extracted it from him over this Dispatch Box—[Interruption.] He has never said it to me in the House of Commons. I hope he will also say that it is safe for the workforce of this country to go back to work in a covid-secure way.
We want to take this country forward. Not only are we getting the pandemic under control, with deaths down and hospital admissions way, way down, but we will continue to tackle it, with local lockdowns and with our superlative test and trace system, which, before Opposition Members sneer and mock it, has now conducted more tests than any other country in Europe. The right hon. and learned Gentleman might hail that, rather than sneering at this country’s achievements.
Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise the concern that he does. We must, of course—and will—deliver on what the protocol says, which is that there shall be unfettered access between GB and NI, and NI and GB, and there shall be no tariffs. We will legislate in the course of the next months to guarantee that.
Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP)
May I associate myself with the remarks of the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition on the tragedy that we witnessed close to Stonehaven, and indeed with the Leader of the Opposition’s tribute to John Hume—a man who did so much for the delivery of peace in the island of Ireland?
Yesterday the Prime Minister told his Cabinet:
“I am no great nautical expert but sometimes it is necessary to tack here…in response to the facts as they change”.
It was surprisingly honest for the Prime Minister to admit that his Government are all at sea—a UK Government now defined by eight U-turns in eight months. But if the Prime Minister is true to his word, surely he must see sense and change tack for a ninth time. With the clock ticking for struggling businesses and workers, will the Prime Minister commit today to extend the job retention scheme beyond October—or are Boris’s Government making the political choice to accept levels of unemployment last seen under Thatcher in the early 1980s?
The Prime Minister
Opposition Members of all parties seem to want to extend the furlough scheme, which has already cost the country £40 billion. It has supported 11 million people, but, after all, keeps them in suspended animation and prevents them from going to work. We want to get people back to work, and that is why I hope the right hon. Gentleman will instead support our kick-start scheme to get young people into jobs and support them in those jobs. How much better is that than languishing out of work?
Ian Blackford
My goodness, “languishing out of work”; the furlough scheme is there to protect people so that they can come back to work when the time is right. France, Germany and Ireland have extended their furlough schemes until 2021. They have made a moral choice. They are not prepared to punish their people with record levels of unemployment. People in Scotland are seeing a tale of two Governments. While the Tories are cutting furlough scheme support, yesterday Nicola Sturgeon was announcing new investment to protect jobs, including a youth guarantee. We all know that jobs are under threat if the furlough scheme ends in October. The power to end this threat lies with the Prime Minister. Will he do his duty and extend the furlough scheme, or are we going to return to levels of unemployment last seen under Thatcher, with the resultant human misery?
The Prime Minister
We are not only continuing with the furlough scheme until the end of this month, as the right hon. Gentleman knows—a scheme that is far more generous, by the way, than anything provided in France, Germany or Ireland. We are continuing with that scheme, but after it elapses we will get on with other measures to support people in work. Starting today, there is the kick-start scheme to help young people to get the jobs that they need. That is in addition to a £160 billion package that we have spent to support the economy throughout this crisis. The Government have put their arms around all the people of this country to support them throughout the crisis. That is what we are doing, and we will now help them to get back into work.
Damian Green (Ashford) (Con)
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. We are working at pace with rail companies to try to deliver new products in terms of ticketing that would ensure better value and enable people to get back to work in a flexible way.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)
May I thank the Prime Minister and the Chancellor for the financial and economic interventions the Government have made to date? The Prime Minister will be aware that, as much as we want to see people back in work, there are certain sectors, such as tourism, travel, hospitality and aerospace, where that will not be possible in the short to medium term. Therefore, may I encourage the Prime Minister to look at a targeted extension for those sectors, and also to look at a specific UK-wide scheme to help those who have so far been excluded from the current schemes, including the newly self-employed?
The Prime Minister
As the right hon. Gentleman knows, there are a great number of schemes in addition to the job retention scheme that support people in work in all sorts of sectors—the coronavirus loans, the bounce-back loans, and the grants that we have made to businesses of all kinds. He mentions the tourism and hospitality sector, and we have made huge investments in those, including the very successful eat out to help out scheme that we have been running. But it is also very important that we get people back into the workplace in a covid-secure way and, unlike the Leader of the Opposition, we do everything we can to give them confidence that it is a good idea to go back. An ounce of confidence is worth a ton of taxpayers’ money.
Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
The Prime Minister
I thank my hon. Friend, who raises an important point. As he will know, the rules around access to schemes for alternative finance are not the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor, but of the Bank of England. I am sure the Governor will have heard my hon. Friend today.
Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP)
The Prime Minister
Not at all. We have supported the arts industry alone with about £1.7 billion of support. In Scotland, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman never tires of saying, the overall support for tackling coronavirus has been in the order of about £4 billion. We will continue to give support, but we happen to think—and I hope it is common ground across the House—that it would be better for the UK economy and better for all the people he rightly cares about to get back into work.
Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con)
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the wonderful attractions of north Wales, which I know very well, as I tried to get elected there many years ago—unsuccessfully. I congratulate him on his success, and may it be long repeated.
Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) [V]
The Prime Minister
I must say that I listened carefully to what the hon. Gentleman said, but he seems to have ignored the fact that we have just had an inflation-busting public sector pay rise. As part of the package that we agreed in 2018, nurses alone have had a 12.5% pay increase since then. I appreciate his sentiments—he is on the right lines—but he should look at what is actually happening.
Angela Richardson (Guildford) (Con)
The Prime Minister
I thank my hon. Friend for her apposite intervention on behalf of Alexander Dennis. I was a keen customer of Alexander Dennis’s fantastic machines. I cannot guarantee this, but I hope that our green recovery and our massive investment in green buses will be of benefit to the workforce of Alexander Dennis.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op) [V]
The Prime Minister
I thank the hon. Gentleman. I encourage him to return from New York, Shanghai or wherever he is and join us in this House as fast as he can. Actually, what the people of this country want to see is their representatives back on their seats as fast as possible in the Palace of Westminster. That is what we should work for, and that is why we are working together to drive down this virus and create a covid-secure environment.
Andrew Lewer (Northampton South) (Con)
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a very interesting point, and I am sure that point of view is shared by many people in this country. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport will be setting out a roadmap for reform of the BBC shortly and addressing the very issues he mentions.
Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab) [V]
The Prime Minister
It is a rare privilege to ask a question in the House, so you would have thought, Mr Speaker, that they could have come up with something better than that. This is a global pandemic, which this Government are dealing with extremely effectively at a medical level. What we want to do now, in a covid-secure way, is to get our children back into school. That is happening today, in spite of the Leader of the Opposition and his colleagues; I do not know where the hon. Lady has stood on this issue. We also want to get our country’s economy back on its feet again and get us back to work. So I hope that she and her colleagues will say that it is also safe to go back to work in a covid-secure way.
Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth and Southam) (Con)
The Prime Minister
I heartily endorse, I am afraid, the sentiments that my right hon. and learned Friend has expressed. Anybody who has worked with HS2 over the past few years will know that it does treat local residents with, I am afraid, a high-handed approach—or has done. What I can tell him, however, is that where there is damage to local roads HS2 will pay compensation. I will certainly take up his point with HS2.
Kate Osborne (Jarrow) (Lab)
The Prime Minister
I direct the hon. Lady to what I have said already, which is that there will always be those who argue for an infinite extension of the furlough scheme, and who want to keep people off work, unemployed, being paid very substantial sums, for a very long time. I do not think that is the right thing. I think the best way forward for our country is, as far as we possibly can, to get people back into work. As she knows, there is the job retention bonus at the end of the year, and there are abundant schemes. Already £160 billion has been spent to support the economy throughout the crisis, and we will continue, as I said, to put our arms round the entire people to keep them going throughout this crisis. But furlough—indefinite furlough—is just not the answer.
Lee Anderson (Ashfield) (Con)
The Prime Minister
I thank my hon. Friend. I have a great deal of sympathy with those who are so desperate as to put their children in dinghies, or even children’s paddling pools, and try to cross the channel, but I have to say that what they are doing is falling prey to criminal gangs and they are breaking the law. They are also undermining the legitimate claims of others who would seek asylum in this country. That is why we will take advantage of leaving the EU by changing the Dublin regulations on returns, and we will address the rigidities in our laws that make this country, I am afraid, a target and a magnet for those who would exploit vulnerable people in this way.
Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)
The Prime Minister
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman and, yes, it was incredibly exciting to go to Appledore and see the potential of that yard and see what Harland and Wolff is doing there. Also, of course, he is absolutely right in what he says about the potential for various other contracts both in Devon and in Belfast; I cannot give him the kind of guarantees he wants over the Dispatch Box now, but watch this space.
Point of Order
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker
You have given me notice of this point of order, Mr Blackford, and it is important to clear up this matter. I would not normally allow urgent questions or statements to be interfered with in this way, but on this occasion I will allow it.
Ian Blackford
Thank you, Mr Speaker; I am most grateful.
On Friday 21 August, the Daily Mail ran a front-page story revealing the location of the Prime Minister’s holiday in Scotland. This was a violation of his family’s privacy that neither myself nor my party in any way condone. Later the same day, a senior Conservative source in Downing Street told The Sun newspaper:
“The finger of blame for this all getting out is being pointed at the SNP, particularly Ian Blackford who is local.”
This was subsequently repeated in a number of newspapers and broadcast outlets.
This allegation and briefing was entirely and deliberately false; it was a targeted political smear from the Prime Minister’s office. The photographer who provided the material for the original Daily Mail front-page later confirmed that I was not the source in revealing the Prime Minister’s location—a location, I might add, I was not even aware of. However, by this point, the damage was done.
This matter has not only been the worst kind of political smear; the false allegation has equally resulted in security implications for myself and my family, given its serious and personal nature. [Interruption.] I can see the Prime Minister pulling a face, but all we have to do is go to social media to see the threats I was then forced to witness.
It is a very serious situation when the apparatus of the UK Government can be deployed in this way, manufacturing false briefings in order to attack an Opposition politician. I raised this issue with the Prime Minister’s office in writing. However, as I have not received a response, I am raising this point of order today to ensure that these false briefings are now stopped and are never repeated for any parliamentarian.
The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson)
May I first say what a wonderful staycation holiday I had in the right hon. Gentleman’s constituency, what a fantastic part of the world it is, and how thoroughly I commend it to everybody? It is an absolutely beautiful location and he is very lucky to represent it.
On the substantive point that the right hon. Gentleman raises, I am very happy to accept the assurances that he gives. However, he talks about going to social media and I just draw his attention to a tweet by a chap called Torcuil Crichton on 17 August, saying,
“Ferocious midge count in Wester Ross tonight, I hear. Must be bad if you’re fair-skinned and camping”,
to which an account that purports to be the right hon. Gentleman’s—but I am sure that it is not because of what he has just said—says,
“I wonder if an education at Eton stands you in good stead for these blighters.”
Anyway, I am happy to accept his assurances and his protestations, and I think we should leave it at that, Mr Speaker.
Mr Speaker
What I would like to say, obviously—[Interruption.] Mr Brennan, please. May I just say that what I am very concerned about is the security implications for the Prime Minister and the security implications for the parliamentary leader of the SNP? Please may I just say to everyone, let us be very careful and learn from this? Obviously, this is on the record from both parties, and I hope we can draw a line under it, but please let us take each other’s security very, very seriously. Thank you.
Channel Crossings in Small Boats
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab) (Urgent Question)
To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will make a statement on those crossing the English Channel in small boats.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Chris Philp)
In recent months, the UK has seen a completely unacceptable increase in illegal migration through small-boat crossings from France to the UK. This Government and the Home Secretary are working relentlessly to stop these crossings. Illegal migration is not a new phenomenon. Every Government over the last 20 years and more have experienced migrants—often economic migrants—attempting to reach the UK through illegal means. The majority of these crossings are facilitated by ruthless criminal gangs that make money from exploiting migrants who are desperate to come here.
We are working with the National Crime Agency to go after those who profit from such misery. Already this year, 24 people have been convicted and jailed for facilitating illegal immigration. In July, I joined a dawn raid on addresses across London, which saw a further 11 people arrested for facilitating illegal immigration, and £150,000 in cash and some luxury cars were seized. Just this morning, we arrested a man under section 25 of the Immigration Act 1971 who had yesterday illegally piloted a boat into this country. Further such arrests are expected.
These crossings are highly dangerous. Tragically, last month a 28-year-old Sudanese man, Abdulfatah Hamdallah, died in the water near Calais attempting this crossing. This morning, the Royal National Lifeboat Institution has been out in the English channel and has had to rescue at least 34 people, and possibly more, who were attempting this dangerous journey.
These criminally facilitated journeys are not just dangerous; they are unnecessary as well. France, where these boats are launched, and other EU countries through which these migrants have travelled on their way to the channel, are manifestly safe countries with fully functioning asylum systems. Genuine refugees seeking only safety can and should claim asylum in the first safe country they reach. There is no excuse to refuse to do so and instead travel illegally and dangerously to the UK. Those fleeing persecution have had many opportunities to claim asylum in the European countries they have passed through long before attempting this crossing.
We are working closely with our French colleagues to prevent these crossings. That includes patrols of the beaches by French officers, some of whom we fund, surveillance and intelligence sharing. Over 3,000 crossing attempts were stopped this year alone by the French authorities, and approaching 50% of all crossing attempts are stopped on or near French beaches. This morning alone, French authorities prevented at least 84 people from attempting this crossing, thanks in significant part to the daily intelligence briefings provided by the National Crime Agency here in the United Kingdom.
It serves both French and UK interests to work together to cut this route. If this route is completely ended, migrants wishing to come to the UK will no longer need to travel to northern France in the first place. We are therefore urgently discussing with the French Government how our current plans can be strengthened and made truly comprehensive. We have already in the last two months established a joint intelligence cell to ensure that intelligence about crossings is rapidly acted upon, and this morning’s interceptions on French soil are evidence of the success of that approach.
It is also essential to return people who make the crossings where we can, and we are currently working to return nearly 1,000 cases where migrants had previously claimed asylum in European countries and, under the regulations, legally should be returned there. Last month, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary announced the appointment of former Royal Marine Dan O’Mahoney as clandestine channel threat commander. He will collaborate closely with the French to build on the joint work already under way, urgently exploring tougher action in France, including—
Mr Speaker
Order. Advisers should know that it is three minutes; we are now nearly on five. I do not understand how the mistake has come about.
Chris Philp
Mr Speaker, I sincerely apologise. In that case, let me conclude by saying that these crossings are dangerous, illegal and unnecessary. They should simply not be happening, and this Government will not rest until we have taken the necessary steps to completely end these crossings.
Nick Thomas-Symonds
I am grateful to you for granting this urgent question, Mr Speaker, and for the Minister’s response. I would first like to send my thoughts to the family of Abdulfatah Hamdallah, who died in the English channel—a powerful reminder of the gravity of this issue.
Over a year ago, the Home Secretary said:
“We’ve been working extremely closely with our French colleagues to tackle the use of small boats but we both agreed more needs to be done.”
Why does the Minister think that that work last year has proved so inadequate? The Minister himself scrambled to France on 11 August and announced the joint action plan, but can he outline when that will be available for scrutiny? We all agree on the need to tackle criminal gangs, but does he also accept the importance of safe routes for those seeking asylum? The Government were warned, including by the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs, that the collapse of safe routes would lead to growing numbers of people taking to the sea.
The expectation around the Dubs amendment across the House was that 3,000 children would be accepted under the scheme. Does the Minister now agree that it was a profound error and, frankly, lacking in compassion to close down that scheme when only a 10th of that number had been accepted? What provisions have been put in place for the welfare of any children who have been intercepted on the crossing? What safeguards are being put in place to ensure that all accommodation is kept safe and covid-secure, as well as protected from far-right attacks, which have unfortunately been reported in recent days?
What we need now are solutions, not empty headlines trying to sound tough. I have deep concerns that in recent weeks the Government, through talking up the deployment of the Navy and the RAF, have tried to militarise the solution when lives are at risk. Ultimately, the sad truth is that people are fleeing their homes as a result of poverty, war and persecution. Does the Minister accept that abolishing the Department for International Development is a great mistake? Is it not the truth that the Government’s approach to this whole issue has, frankly, been defined by a lack of compassion and a lack of competence?
Chris Philp
I shall try to be brief in my reply, Mr Speaker.
The shadow Home Secretary asks why numbers are so high. Global migration has been growing strongly, and he will be aware that 40,000 people—a far larger number than have crossed the channel—have crossed the Mediterranean. Moreover, during the coronavirus pandemic we have seen displacement from other illegal entry routes, such as lorries and the use of fake documents on aeroplanes, into the maritime route, and we have been successful at preventing illegal immigration through the juxtaposed controls. The situation has been compounded by unusually benign weather conditions in the English channel over the summer.
The shadow Home Secretary asks about safe routes. Since 2015, the Government have provided almost 20,000 resettlement places—a number that dwarfs the 3,000 that he mentions. Since 2010, some 44,000 children have been offered protection of one form or another by the United Kingdom. He says our approach lacks compassion, but I direct him to those figures. I also remind him that last year, 2019, this country received more applications from unaccompanied asylum-seeking children than any other European country, and all of them have been generously looked after while their claims are processed.
The shadow Home Secretary asks about children. When children arrive, they go straight into social care and are extremely carefully looked after while their claims are processed. This Government certainly need no lessons in compassion. Our asylum system is extremely compassionate and extremely generous, and the numbers speak for themselves.
Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con)
I thank the Minister for his statement. May I impress upon him the strength of feeling on this issue in Newcastle-under-Lyme and elsewhere? It is not because my constituents lack compassion or humanity; it is because they recognise that what is going on is not only illegal but represents unfair queue jumping. I spoke to my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Mrs Elphicke) about this issue earlier; she has been working all summer to bring this issue to the Minister’s attention. Does he agree that what is currently happening is in essence a form of asylum shopping, wherein people claim asylum in the first country they reach and then move to another and claim asylum again? They keep claiming asylum—instead of securing asylum in the first safe country, they keep coming to the UK, where they believe we have a more favourable asylum system. Does he agree that asylum shopping needs to end?
Chris Philp
I join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Mrs Elphicke) for her tireless campaigning on this issue. She has done a huge amount of work in this policy area. My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Aaron Bell) is absolutely right: people who are genuinely seeking a safe refuge could and should claim that refuge in the first country they reach. The people arriving in Dover yesterday and today have left from France, which is a safe country with a well-functioning asylum system. If their principal objective was to seek refuge from persecution, they could easily have done that in France or, indeed, any of the other countries through which they passed before they arrived in Calais.
Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP) [V]
Five years on from the day the world was shocked by little Alan Kurdi’s death, perhaps the Minister could just agree that the response to the channel crossings should be informed by empathy and evidence and not driven by Farage and friction. Will he confirm that, despite what he has said, there is nothing in international law that requires refugees to apply for asylum in the first safe state that they come to, even though the overwhelming majority do? Will he acknowledge that there will be good reasons, such as family ties, for many of the people attempting crossings to make their claims here instead of in France? Will he recognise that by failing to provide safe legal routes, the Government force people to use ever more dangerous alternatives and drive them into the arms of people smugglers, as at least two parliamentary Committees have previously pointed out?
Instead of bashing our brilliant human rights lawyers, will the Minister now put those safe routes in place; ensure a successor to the Dublin family unity rules; restart resettlement and commit to it for the long term; and reopen Dubs and other safe routes from Europe? That would be a response rooted in empathy and evidence.
Chris Philp
Safe routes from Europe are not the answer to this problem because, by definition, people in Europe are already in a safe country. Transporting people from one safe country in Europe to the United Kingdom does nothing to add to their protection. There are, of course, routes for family reunion—at the moment under Dublin and in the future under the United Kingdom’s own immigration rules. In relation to a safe legal route for people fleeing persecution, the hon. Member has already referenced the resettlement programme, which between 2015 and the onset of coronavirus saw just a shade under 20,000 people being resettled directly from dangerous conflict zones, mainly in the vicinity of Syria. Those routes have existed for the last five years, yet I am sad to say that illegal migration continued none the less.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
French authorities have a serious and significant role to play in preventing small boats from crossing the channel and putting so many lives at risk. Does my hon. Friend accept that the more that the French authorities negate their responsibilities, the more lives are put at risk and the further encouragement is given to traffickers?
Chris Philp
My right hon. Friend is correct. I should pick up on the point made a moment ago; the way to ensure that lives are protected is to ensure that no one attempts these crossings at all. As he says, that means working with the French to prevent these crossings from taking place. That is the way to protect lives and stop the ruthless criminal gangs exploiting migrants, and that is the Government’s objective.
Nadia Whittome (Nottingham East) (Lab)
A report last year by the Foreign Affairs Committee, of which the Home Secretary was a member at the time, said:
“In the absence of robust and accessible legal routes for seeking asylum in the UK, those with a claim are left with little choice but to make dangerous journeys by land and sea.”
How many more people like Abdulfatah Hamdallah have to die before the Home Secretary creates those safe and legal routes?
Chris Philp
I have already pointed out that there are safe and legal routes into the United Kingdom. In addition to the vulnerable persons resettlement scheme that I have referenced already, which ran very successfully from 2015, there was also the vulnerable children’s resettlement scheme, the gateway scheme and, of course, the Dubs scheme—a commitment that we met in full. Many people claim asylum having arrived in this country on a visa as well, so the safe routes that the hon. Member describes do exist already.
Let me emphasise once again that the people making these crossings on small boats are leaving a safe European country—France—having often travelled previously through countries such as Germany and Italy, which are also safe countries with an asylum system. If these people’s principal concern is to secure protection from persecution, they have had ample opportunity to do so long before getting on one of these dangerous boats.
Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)
Having had some responsibility in the past for the immigration system, I know how complex this particular subject is, so may I press the Minister on two points? First, I urge him to discourage economic migrants. If we were to improve our asylum decision-making speed, that would discourage them. Secondly, I urge him to use our development assistance, which the shadow Home Secretary mentioned, to focus on the source countries to ensure that people are not leaving for economic reasons and have more reason to stay at home. In that way, our 0.7% development assistance can help our national security as well.
Chris Philp
My right hon. Friend has a long track record of distinguished service in this area. I completely agree with his point about overseas aid. This country is the only G7 country meeting the 0.7% of GNI commitment, and that is part of our efforts to help source countries to develop economically. As he clearly laid out, that will reduce the economic incentive to migrate.
Rosie Duffield (Canterbury) (Lab)
Given the recent very violent assault on a young man who had just landed on a Kent beach and the planned protests by far-right groups in Kent reported in several broadsheet newspapers, what extra support is the Secretary of State offering police in Kent to ensure the safety of all those who seek asylum in our country? Will the Minister join me in telling the hate-driven, violent groups that make their way to Kent to go back to where they come from?
Chris Philp
Yes, I will join the hon. Lady in condemning wholeheartedly and unreservedly the groups she describes who have targeted migrants in that way. There is no excuse at all, under any circumstances, for harassing people who have arrived. Whatever someone’s views may be about the immigration system, there is no excuse and no justification. The police have our full support in dealing with anyone who perpetrates violent offences or harassment offences of the kind she describes.
Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the simplest and quickest way to ensure the flow of illegal immigrants is stemmed would be to send them immediately back to France as soon as they reach our shores? Does he understand the anger and frustration felt by many people in Kent that the Government are either unwilling or unable to take that action?
Chris Philp
I do understand and share the anger and frustration my hon. Friend describes. I do agree that the best way to disincentivise or deter these dangerous and illegal crossings is returns when people arrive, because then the migrant would not bother attempting the crossing in the first place. We are, as I said, in the process of progressing getting on for 1,000 cases where the migrant has previously claimed asylum in a European country. We started that process in August and 26 people were returned on 12 and 26 August. That is a small start. We have a large number of further flights planned in the coming weeks and months to make sure that those people who legally should be returned will be returned.
Owen Thompson (Midlothian) (SNP)
With reports that the UK Government are planning to reduce or scrap their overseas aid budget, will the Minister confirm whether he is aware of the very clear link between migration patterns and efforts to provide international aid and development abroad? Does he agree that moves to cut back on that would only worsen the current situation?
Chris Philp
Clearly, improving economic conditions in source countries is a vital part of tackling this problem upstream, as indeed is working with law enforcement agencies in those countries to disrupt the dangerous and ruthless criminals who operate in those areas. Work with the overseas aid budget is an important part of that, but so is trade. As we negotiate trade agreements around the world, that will also help to encourage economic development in some of the source countries. As employment is created and prosperity generated, I hope that will also reduce the economic incentives for the kind of mass migration we are currently seeing.
Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con)
The Labour party could not be more out of touch with the vast majority of people on this issue, and I am quite surprised that it brought it forward. However, Labour party strategy is not a matter for me. One of the key drivers of illegal channel crossings is our easily exploited asylum system. Once inside the system, illegal migrants know the chances of being able to stay for good are high. Will the Minister prioritise bringing legislation before this House that eliminates the vexatious aspects of our asylum system, such as repeated asylum claims on different grounds, and consider the wisdom of using taxpayers’ money for legal aid claims to support those who have come over here illegally?
Chris Philp
Speaking frankly, my hon. Friend is right in much of what he says. There are considerable issues with the way our asylum and immigration system has been operating in this area. I can confirm that there is considerable policy work under way to address areas where the UK’s immigration and asylum system is being exploited and abused. We are working on developing legislation to address those loopholes in exactly the way he describes, because we will not tolerate our system being abused in any way.
Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)
The UK has often been a safe haven for those fleeing their homeland for genuine reasons, whether persecution or fleeing terror. That should continue, while recognising that other countries can provide such protection. However, does the Minister believe that the Government have sufficient domestic tools, and co-operation from the EU and others, to manage illegal immigration into the common travel area and inward into the UK, whether through Northern Ireland or other ways?
Chris Philp
As we leave the transition period in a few months’ time, we will want to continue co-operating with the European Union and, indeed, bilaterally with individual European countries. The problem of mass migration is in many ways a shared problem, so I hope that co-operation will continue. We are discussing that with the European Union, and we are discussing it bilaterally with France, Belgium, Germany and many other countries. I hope that the co-operation that the hon. Lady describes will continue, but, of course, it takes two to tango. I agree with her first point. We do have in this country a long and proud history of providing protection for those who are being genuinely persecuted and, of course, that will continue.
Dehenna Davison (Bishop Auckland) (Con)
I thank my hon. Friend for his robust response today, which I am sure will provide some reassurance to the many people in Bishop Auckland who have contacted me about small boat crossings. I understand that, just last week, 23 migrants were due to be returned to Spain, but that was blocked by a string of legal cases. We need to remember that these are people who travel to our country illegally, bypassing safe nations, including Spain and France. Does my hon. Friend believe that the Home Office’s efforts to facilitate legitimate and legal returns of illegal migrants are too often being frustrated by activist lawyers putting in last-minute challenges, happy to see taxpayers’ money wasted in such a manner?
Chris Philp
It is the case that the planned flight to Spain on 27 August was cancelled as a result of the lodging of a large number of last-minute claims, which left no time for them to be properly considered prior to the flight. It is likely that many of those claims were intentionally lodged at the last minute, but as those are being worked through, we will be organising subsequent flights so that people can be lawfully returned to Spain, a safe country where these migrants had previously claimed asylum. That can and should take place.
Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)
I apologise in advance for stating the totally blindingly obvious, but I do so in the hope of assisting the Minister here. If we do not provide safe and legal routes for people who are fleeing war and persecution, they will resort to unsafe and illegal routes. There is only one other country in Europe that does not allow unaccompanied refugee children to be reunited with their families and sponsor that reunification. Why is that?
Chris Philp
I repeat that there are plenty of legal mechanisms by which people may claim asylum. About 40% of those people claiming asylum have entered the country in a lawful manner. I will just draw attention once again to the resettlement scheme, which has seen almost 20,000 people resettled here directly from conflict zones—not people coming through France and Spain who are in a safe country already, but the people who were in or around places such as Syria who were genuinely in danger. On unaccompanied asylum-seeking children, given that last year we received more than 3,500 UASCs, the highest number of any country in Europe, we need no lectures on that topic.
Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con)
Can my hon. Friend confirm that his Department is urging the French Government to take more rapid and productive action to prevent those leaving the French coast in the first place and that he is looking at ways to return economic migrants and to process those vexatious asylum claims in a more rapid manner?
Chris Philp
Yes, I can confirm that we are doing all those things. Work is under way as we speak to do more with our French colleagues. I have mentioned the joint intelligence cell already, and we are doing work to strengthen our existing operational plans. Moreover, the work on returns, both now, under the Dublin framework, and subsequent to the end of the transition period, is actively under way, because if we return people who make this unnecessary, dangerous and illegal journey, there will be no incentive or reason to attempt it in the future.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
One reason we have seen a rise in small boat crossings is the crackdown on border controls in terms of lorries and the significant drop in freight traffic because of coronavirus. Does that not just show that the problem will not go away, despite the sort of military heroics that the Government are trying to embark on in the channel, and that we need to identify safe and legal routes? In particular, we need to work in France with people who have a proven connection to the UK, particularly refugee children, to try to deal with the problem before they try to reach the UK by illegal means?
Chris Philp
In relation to children, there are already family reunification provisions in the Dublin regulations, and there are provisions for children to be reunified, particularly with their parents, under our own immigration rules that will come into force after we leave the transition period. In terms of the displacement between different methods of illegal entry, the hon. Lady’s analysis is, broadly speaking, correct, but just because it is difficult, or can be difficult, to stop illegal migration, that is not going to deter us from doing so. It is our duty, as the United Kingdom’s Government, to prevent illegal immigration and to choose, as a sovereign Parliament and a sovereign nation, to decide who comes into the country and who does not. We will never abandon our responsibility to properly police and protect our borders.
Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) (Con) [V]
I congratulate my hon. Friend and our law enforcement agencies on the recent arrests that have been made. Will he set out what further steps he is taking with counterparts overseas to smash the criminal networks who are exploiting migrants and risking their lives by organising these dangerous crossings?
Chris Philp
I add my tribute to my hon. Friend’s tribute to our crime fighting agencies—the police, the National Crime Agency and Immigration Enforcement, who are working day and night to break up these criminal gangs. I mentioned the raid that I accompanied in July, which went to about 13 different addresses across most of London and resulted in 11 arrests and the seizure of £150,000 in cash. There are multiple operations under way in the United Kingdom, but also working with law enforcement partners in other European countries and countries beyond Europe, to break up these criminal gangs. It is not just in France; it goes way beyond France. They are dangerous; they are ruthless; they are exploiting vulnerable migrants; and they are engaged in other associated criminality. We will stop at nothing to get all of them rounded up, arrested and put out of business.
Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)
It has been sad to watch a summer of the Government chasing cheap newspaper headlines, rather than getting a grip of this challenge, because growing global climate change will only make more challenging migration patterns for European countries. We need a cross-European solution. We have heard from the Minister for immigration compliance what his solution is: “Nothing to do with me, guv—stay in Italy, stay in Greece, stay in France, stay in Germany.” That will not do. So what are the Minister and the Home Office doing, today, to get to a mature, equitable and humane solution with our European partners?
Chris Philp
As I say, we have, as part of our European Union negotiations, made a detailed and comprehensive offer in relation to returns arrangements—readmission arrangements—and indeed UASC and family reunification. That offer was a detailed offer. We tabled a full legal text in both of those two areas in May last year, and that will provide the basis of the co-operation that the hon. Gentleman describes. But if, for any reason, that agreement cannot be reached, then obviously we will make our own unilateral arrangements that are compassionate, humane and fair but at the same time control our borders.
Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Con)
I wrote to the Home Secretary recently about the concerns raised by my constituents who are seeing repeated images in the media of these dangerous and illegal crossings. Our current asylum laws are bound by the EU’s restrictive and rigid legislation. Will my hon. Friend commit to reforming our laws around asylum, illegal migration and the associated criminality to stop these crossings completely once our transition period with the EU ends this year?
Chris Philp
I do share that objective, so does the Home Secretary, and so do the whole Government. Where we need to legislate to tighten up the law in this area to make these crossings impossible, we will not draw back or hesitate before taking those steps. We are determined to do whatever it takes to make sure that our borders are properly policed. If that requires legislation, then we will legislate.
Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab)
The Minister talked earlier—with some pride, I think—about our taking the highest number of applications from unaccompanied asylum-seeking children, which is good. Overall, the UK takes three times fewer asylum applications than France, three times fewer than Spain and four times fewer than Germany. So if we were to reopen safe routes properly, what level of asylum applications does he think would be a fair share for us to deal with?
Chris Philp
When it comes to helping vulnerable people, it is far more effective to help those who are in dangerous locations rather than shipping people from, say, Spain to the United Kingdom, because countries like Spain are already safe countries. As I say, we do more than our fair share when it comes to protecting vulnerable people. I have already referenced the fact that we have the highest number of UASCs of any European country, and our resettlement programme, in the five years from 2015 to 2020, took in more people directly from conflict zones than any other European country. So any suggestion that this country is not doing its fair share is completely wrong and completely misguided.
Giles Watling (Clacton) (Con)
This issue just seems to be maundering on and on; we keep coming back to it again and again. On 9 June this year, I asked Ministers about this issue, as my constituents in Clacton expect this matter to be dealt with—it is what they voted for. People’s lives are at risk. Criminal gangs are getting rich and it has to stop, so what concrete progress has been made since I last asked this question? I reiterate that we need to get the French navy to step up to the plate and take those people off the boats in international waters. How are we going to ensure that that happens, and soon?
Chris Philp
Since we last spoke, the French officers operating on or near French beaches have stopped hundreds of crossing attempts—they have stopped about 3,000 crossing attempts so far this year. We have also established the joint intelligence cell that I mentioned earlier, and intelligence passed from the National Crime Agency here in the UK to our French counterparts contributed, I believe, to 84 crossing attempts being prevented this morning alone, so that is good progress. However, there is undoubtedly more that needs to be done, because these crossings are continuing at frankly unacceptable levels, and negotiations and discussions are continuing as we speak with our French colleagues to step up our efforts and activities even more.
Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)
Refugees experience situations that few of us can even imagine, yet in recent months, while sitting aboard overcrowded dinghies in the middle of the English channel, they have been subjected to a voyeuristic media filming them, like some sort of perverse sea safari, while also facing a UK Government intent on enforcing upon them their hostile environment. So I ask the Minister: do either of these things give him any shame?
Chris Philp
The hon. Gentleman, frankly, has a cheek to talk about hostile environments in this context. We have one of the most accommodating asylum systems in Europe. When people arrive and claim asylum, they are accommodated. Their council tax and utility bills are paid for. They get an allowance to cover essentials and food. That is a far more accommodating approach than in many other European countries, so to say that somehow they face a hostile reception, frankly, could not be further from the truth.
Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln) (Con) [V]
Many of my constituents in Lincoln know that the majority of the illegal crossings are being facilitated by organised criminals who are exploiting vulnerable migrants and putting their lives at risk. I have heard the answers that my hon. Friend has given, but will he confirm that he and the Secretary of State are committed to cracking down on the criminals? Can he update us on the French levels of law enforcement in this regard and how joined-up our Gallic friends are in assisting the UK and our agencies under Home Office control in stopping this illegal practice occurring and currently flourishing, seemingly, in the first place?
Chris Philp
There are dozens of investigations under way into these criminals who are facilitating illegal immigration. I have mentioned the 24 convictions and prison sentences given already this year in the UK, and there has been a similar number—in fact, I think a slightly greater number—in France. We are now working ever more closely with our French colleagues and the various arms of the French Government on this activity. We have the joint intelligence cell. There is the Co-ordination and Information Centre unit in Calais, which co-ordinates activity between our two Governments and our two sets of law enforcement agencies. I said that an arrest was made as recently as this morning. The French are making arrests as well. Both Governments share the objective that my hon. Friend described of putting these dangerous and ruthless criminal gangs out of business.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
The Minister keeps referring to applying for asylum in the first safe country, as though it were a legal requirement. It is not—it is one of the criteria under Dublin. People have a right to apply in any country they choose and family reunion is supposed to take precedence, so I would like him to correct that when he replies. I would also like him to say whether his Government will focus more on the causes of migration, including the accelerating climate emergency, and take seriously a Bill that I will be tabling later today—the climate and ecological emergency Bill—which is designed precisely to try to tackle some of these root causes of why so many people are taking to dangerous boats.
Chris Philp
Of course we agree that dealing with issues in source countries—economic issues and others—is a vital part of fixing this problem. Migration trends across the world, and into Europe across the Mediterranean and the Aegean, have grown dramatically over the last few years. The small boat crossings that we are seeing are a small part of that much bigger picture. This Government have done a huge amount on climate change. We have virtually eliminated coal-fired power stations, one of the biggest emitters of greenhouse gases, and CO2 emissions generally in this country have fallen dramatically over the last 10 or 15 years, as the hon. Lady well knows.
Ben Bradley (Mansfield) (Con)
We went to my hon. Friend the Minister and the Home Secretary to be candid about the level of anger and frustration felt by many of my constituents in Mansfield and people across the UK at stories that we hear about illegal migrants arriving on our shores, being put up in hotels and having endless legal challenges funded at the expense of British taxpayers. The Minister is right that we need to stop the boats leaving France in the first place, stop this criminal activity and prevent people from putting their lives at risk in this way, but what can we do here at home to ensure that our domestic system for asylum and deportation is seen to be working for British taxpayers?
Chris Philp
The hotel situation that my hon. Friend describes is a very short-term, temporary measure that was a response to the coronavirus epidemic. It is certainly not intended to be permanent, and we are in the process of making arrangements to unwind it as quickly as possible. On the asylum system and the legal loopholes, as I said, we are actively exploring legislative options to ensure that our system is tightened up and cannot be abused.
Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
This Government are militarising the humanitarian crisis, made worse by past military interventions in countries such as Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya. The inconvenient truth, of course, is that Britain has long played the role of agitator, making worse global crises that destabilise regions and displace people. Wales has committed to becoming a nation of sanctuary. What will the Minister’s Department do to enable that, or is sanctuary not part of the Government’s vocabulary at present?
Chris Philp
Some of the largest source countries include Iran, Eritrea and Sudan—countries in which the United Kingdom has had no previous military engagement. On the question about being a nation of sanctuary, I have already pointed out that last year we made 20,000 grants of asylum and other forms of protection. We have resettled just a shade under 20,000 people under the vulnerable persons resettlement scheme, and many more under the vulnerable children’s resettlement scheme and the gateway scheme, and we have done the full number that we committed to under the Dubs amendment. That is clear evidence of this country’s commitment to compassion and to giving refuge. At the same time, we will police our borders.
Chris Clarkson (Heywood and Middleton) (Con)
I start by paying tribute to our law enforcement and our Royal Navy, despite the comments of Opposition Members. It is approximately a 300-mile drive from Heywood in my constituency to Dover, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Mrs Elphicke). When I say to the Minister that I have received a large number of communications about these crossings, I think he will accept the depth of feeling among people not just in coastal areas but across the entire United Kingdom. I ask him to reiterate the Government’s commitment and to ensure that no stone is unturned and no illegal crosser is unreturned.
Chris Philp
The Home Secretary and I and the Government completely understand and fully accept the depth of anger that is felt right across the country at the crossings that are occurring illegally, dangerously and unnecessarily. My hon. Friend can have my assurance that we will leave no stone unturned. We are trialling various methods that could be used on the sea to prevent crossings, and we are actively exploring necessary legislative options. As far as returns are concerned, we are working daily to return those who legally can be returned under the existing legal framework, and we will be aiming to construct a replacement legal framework once we are outside the transition period.
Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)
The world is interconnected, and when we do not help fellow humans suffering from hunger or persecution, or in war-ravaged nations, they inevitably, in utter desperation, risk life and limb and try to seek refuge elsewhere, including trying to cross the English channel in small, unsafe boats. Does the Minister agree that it is a cruel irony that the Department for International Development, which works to eradicate poverty, is being abolished today as we debate the inevitable impact of the fact that so many people are displaced by conflict, poverty or persecution?
Chris Philp
It strikes me as surprising that the hon. Gentleman’s analysis made no reference to the fact that we are the only G7 country contributing 0.7% of GNI in overseas aid. We were the second largest global donor of aid in the Syrian region. Our contribution to that humanitarian effort is without question. He talks about people fleeing war-ravaged countries, but the people getting on these small boats are not embarking from the shore of a war-ravaged or dangerous country—they are embarking from Calais. France is a safe and civilised country. So are Germany, Spain, Italy and all these other European countries. They are not fleeing war; they are crossing the channel from France.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
The Minister has repeatedly stressed that these people crossing the channel illegally have already sought sanctuary in other countries in Europe, and yet they still come. He said that 1,000 people are being returned, but what the House would like to know is what percentage of the people who have arrived on our shores illegally over the last year have actually been expelled from the country back to a country where they have already claimed asylum.
Chris Philp
In the last 18 months, about 185 people have been physically returned. There are getting on for a further 1,000 people whose cases we are currently progressing where there is evidence of a previous asylum claim, and therefore, under the Dublin regulations, they are liable to be returned. That work is continuing at pace. A number of flights have been booked in the coming days and weeks to do exactly what my hon. Friend quite rightly calls for.
Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab)
There are still 6,000 children in makeshift camps in the EU. In the time it took for the Home Office to process the 480 spaces—only 480—that it committed to under the Dubs scheme, hundreds of those young people have gone missing. In another life, they could be my children. With the Dubs scheme now formally closed, what steps is the Minister taking to protect vulnerable children such as the ones in those camps who seek refuge from war, torture and persecution?
Chris Philp
I have already pointed out that last year we received 3,500 asylum applications from unaccompanied children—the highest number of any European country. That is our contribution to the European effort to look after children—more than any other country. I call upon the other European countries operating the camps that the hon. Lady describes to show the same compassion and attention that we do when we look after UASCs in this country.
Simon Fell (Barrow and Furness) (Con)
My hon. Friend rightly points out that these crossings are facilitated by criminal gangs—criminal gangs who, we should remember, care not a jot about those who are taking such treacherous journeys to our shores. Intelligence from the NCA and other partners suggests that these gangs are not just facilitating people-trafficking; they are linked to money laundering and wider organised crime group activity. What assurances can he give that we are looking at this issue in the round and applying all our intelligence to try to stop these gangs and stop these crossings?
Chris Philp
My hon. Friend is right in his analysis. National Crime Agency officers are embedded in law enforcement units around Europe and beyond to track down these criminal gangs. It is not just an issue in the UK and France. These criminal networks extend throughout Europe, through countries such as Germany, Italy and Greece, often through Turkey and thereafter into the middle east. The National Crime Agency and others are working tirelessly with other law enforcement agencies to crack down on these gangs in exactly the way he describes.
Mr Speaker
If we are going to get everybody in, we will have to speed up questions and answers.
Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Just last week, the Minister’s Department posted a video attacking so-called “activist lawyers”. Does he understand that Trumpian language like that and other comments in the Chamber today risk stoking further divisions and tensions? Will he apologise for demonising both asylum seekers and lawyers acting on their behalf in saying that they were trying to “undermine” the rule of law? Will he at least introduce safe passages to prove that this is not a dystopian Government?
Chris Philp
I have repeatedly outlined the safe passages or safe routes that already exist, which many tens of thousands of people have availed themselves of. In relation to legal processes, there are loopholes in our legal system at the moment that are frequently exploited, and this Government are determined to close them.
Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con)
According to a poll, 77% of the public see illegal immigration as a serious problem. They know what the Minister knows: that the system is being gamed. Asylum is a noble cause—giving safe haven to people in genuine need is something to be proud of—but the system is broken and needs to be fixed. I have complete confidence in the Home Secretary and her diligence, dedication and determination. When will we see root-and-branch reform in the form of legislation?
Chris Philp
I share the sentiments of my right hon. Friend, who has a long record himself in the Home Office, and the work he describes is under way as we speak.
Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance) [V]
Can the Minister confirm that the UK is not in fact being invaded, and does he recognise that the Government’s quasi-military response, rather than humanitarian response, with terms such as “clandestine channel threat commander”, only fuels tension, the scapegoating of asylum seekers and racism?
Chris Philp
There is nothing improper about seeking to police our country’s borders, and this Government will not apologise for doing so.
Mrs Natalie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
Dover is the national centre for the small boats crossing routes, with more than 5,000 illegal entrants this year and boats arriving day after day on the beaches in my constituency. Does the Minister agree that we can put an end to the small boats crossing routes and that that has three parts: stopping the boats before they leave the French shores, turning around boats when they are in the English channel and sending them back to France and, if people do break into Britain through these illegal routes, making sure they are returned swiftly to France and other countries?
Chris Philp
My hon. Friend has been a tireless campaigner and advocate on this issue—I can testify to that as a Home Office Minister—and her analysis is essentially correct. The three strands of work she just outlines are the three we are pursuing. Some will require new techniques to be deployed on the water, which we are trialling at the moment, and some might require legislation, as my right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes) mentioned a moment ago, and we are prepared to legislate.
Clive Lewis (Norwich South) (Lab) [V]
The UK needs to do more, not less, to provide sanctuary for refugees, given the world’s growing ecological and economic crises. Instead, the Government are dehumanising these people by presenting them as an illegal threat. This is a dangerous path and one that goes completely against the ideals we should be aspiring to: empathy and humanity. Why can the Minister and the Government not see this?
Chris Philp
Where people have a genuine fear of persecution, where they are fleeing to our shores and need our protection, or where we encounter them directly in dangerous areas, we are of course prepared to offer protection, as we did via the resettlement scheme, but that in no way removes, dilutes or diminishes our obligation and determination to protect our borders from illegal immigration. This Parliament and this country will decide who comes here, not ruthless people smugglers, and I call on the hon. Member and the whole Labour party to assist us and work with us in protecting and defending our country’s borders.
Antony Higginbotham (Burnley) (Con)
By the time people reach the English channel, be they economic migrants using illegal routes, or asylum seekers seeking safe haven, they have often passed through a number of safe countries, so what steps are the Government taking to ensure that those countries along the whole route are fulfilling their legal obligations?
Chris Philp
My hon. Friend raises a good and interesting point. I have already pointed out that the UK is scrupulous in discharging its obligations in international treaties to look after unaccompanied asylum-seeking children and asylum seekers more generally. Not all countries in Europe are as diligent and scrupulous as we are in discharging that duty, and I again take the opportunity to call on those countries to step up and do as much as we do to look after those vulnerable people who enter their countries. If they did that, it would again reduce the incentive for people to attempt these dangerous, illegal and unnecessary crossings.
Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab)
On 9 August, the Home Secretary announced that she had appointed a clandestine channel threat commander. Can the Minister confirm precisely what powers the commander has and how the elements of the role could not be addressed by Border Force?
Chris Philp
Former Royal Marine Dan O’Mahoney has been appointed, as the hon. Member describes, and has overall operational and policy responsibility for this rather unique and very serious problem. Because it is so multifaceted and involves lots of different law enforcement agencies—not just Border Force but the National Crime Agency and Immigration Enforcement—and requires working with French authorities and UK Visas and Immigration, we felt we needed a single person empowered and accountable to seize control of the situation and get it fixed. We think that Dan O’Mahoney will do a fantastic job and will grip the situation and bring this problem under control.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
From my time on the Home Affairs Committee, I understand that we have evidence of individuals coming into Serbia from Iran because there was a visa waiver: from Iran they go into Serbia, from there they go to France, from France they go to the channel, and from the channel they go to Kent in my part of the country. I understand that loophole has now been closed, so how and through what countries are these illegal migrants getting into the EU and the Schengen area? I say to the Minister that my constituents on the frontline in Kent urgently want the Government to get this sorted swiftly.
Chris Philp
We hear that message loud and clear. We understand the anger at those illegal, dangerous and unnecessary crossings, and we will do whatever it takes to stop them, including working with the source countries and the upstream countries in the way my hon. Friend has just described.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
To understand the scale, am I right in saying that the number of asylum applications in the UK in the most recent year for which figures are available was 35,566; the number of asylum applications on the most recent figures available in France was 114,500; and that for the same period in Germany, the figure was 161,900?
Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con)[V]
My constituents are becoming increasingly frustrated by the completely unacceptable scenes on the south coast. While I do not doubt the determination of my hon. Friend to tackle the problem, it appears that the Government lack the legislative tools to take the robust action that my constituents rightly demand. Does my hon. Friend agree that the time has now come to fundamentally review our approach to illegal immigration and asylum so that we do not lose the public’s trust on this vital issue?
Chris Philp
Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend’s sentiments. We understand and share the anger that his constituents feel, and he is a very effective advocate for them. We are doing work at the moment at pace to develop legislative options to achieve the outcome he desires, which is to properly control our borders.
Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP)
Unlike the ghastly rhetoric we have heard from some on the Government Benches, the Minister is well aware that refugee charities have asked the Government to protect trafficked women detained in hotels in Glasgow, a call that has fallen on deaf ears, and the same campaigners are calling for the Government to create safe, legal routes for asylum seekers, but instead we get a shameful response. Not doing enough to help refugees is inhumane and indefensible.
When will the Minister and the Department end their dangerous rhetoric and the hostile environment, and start treating refugees detained in hotels or on boats in the channel with respect, dignity and compassion?
Chris Philp
No one is detained in a hotel: they are given free hotel accommodation. In relation to modern slavery, the national referral mechanism provides extremely comprehensive protection to those people who have suffered from the appalling crime of modern slavery.
Jane Stevenson (Wolverhampton North East) (Con)
While the English channel route remains viable, criminal gangs will continue to exploit vulnerable people and put lives at risk. My constituents want those gangs stopped. What further intelligence measures can we take with our French colleagues to trace the vessels being purchased by criminal gangs? They are large vessels and surely more could be done to trace them.
Chris Philp
Work is under way in that area. The French authorities have clamped down a great deal on the sale of those vessels, so some of the more organised criminals now seek to procure them not in France but in other countries in Europe. Many of the migrants have now resorted to stealing boats and other vessels around northern France and the French police are working hard to try to prevent that.
Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
The Minister has spoken much about the compassion that the Government are showing, but will he acknowledge that we all know that the best way to prevent people from making desperate and dangerous journeys is to provide safe legal routes? In their negotiations with the EU, however, the Government are seeking to end this country’s mandatory obligation to reunite unaccompanied, asylum-seeking children with their families. Could he use some of that compassion to persuade the Government to change their negotiating position and allow those reunifications to continue?
Chris Philp
It is not the Government who require persuading; we have tabled a detailed legal text providing for reunification, and we would like the EU—the European Commission—to engage with it. The hon. Lady’s good offices and persuasive skills would be better applied to the European Commission.
Craig Williams (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
I pay tribute to the agencies involved in this and, in particular, to the recent intelligence sharing that led to the successful raids and the stopping of these crossings at source. The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) mentioned the “blindingly obvious”, so let me say to the Minister that people who get to the channel and join small boats have clearly gone through safe countries that have working asylum systems. As we leave the transition period, may I, like other Conservative Members, implore that legislation is brought to this place to fix these things?
Chris Philp
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend’s sentiment, and I think that he will not be disappointed by the legislative plans the Government are formulating.
Navendu Mishra (Stockport) (Lab)
What steps are the Government taking to ensure that more accommodation settings for migrants are not targeted by far-right groups, as was the case in Coventry recently?
Chris Philp
I unreservedly condemn the incidents that the hon. Gentleman is describing, and the police have the Home Office’s full support in protecting people from such unacceptable abuse.
Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con) [V]
This problem has got worse throughout this year, and one consequence is that children in the asylum system are largely accommodated in Kent. The leader of the county council said that there were 589 in August, despite the fact that the safe number is considered to be 231, under the national transfer scheme. What can the Minister say about this situation? Will the Government do more to make sure that children are accommodated safely in the asylum system away from Kent, and not just principally in Kent? Will they make sure the county council has the resources it needs to care for the children it is supporting at the moment?
Chris Philp
We increased, back in June, the funding that Kent and other authorities accommodating large numbers of UASCs receive, but I recognise that Kent bears a disproportionately large share of UASCs. My local authority of Croydon also does, because Lunar House is in Croydon. I have been in regular contact with Roger Gough, the leader of Kent County Council, and I pay tribute to him and his team for the work they have done. We have been rapidly working with other local authorities around the country to transfer UASCs from Kent to other authorities—I thank those other authorities for the response they have so far demonstrated—and by doing that I hope that we are able to ease the pressure that Kent has been under, which I fully acknowledge. We are working to reduce the pressure that my hon. Friend has accurately described.
Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab)
The Minister has just outlined some of the provisions to support children who are intercepted in these channel crossings. Does he feel that the local authorities, right across this country, have enough resources to support children who are intercepted?
Chris Philp
We recently increased the funding to support local authorities in relation to UASCs and care leavers—former UASCs who are now aged up to 25. That was increased by about £35 million per year just a few weeks ago. So, yes, I do believe the financial support is adequate.
Darren Henry (Broxtowe) (Con)
Clearly, these crossings are only made possible by criminals who thrive on exploiting vulnerable migrants and endangering their lives. Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the safest ways to protect refugees is to crack down on this abhorrent trade and reform our asylum laws to ensure that those most in need are protected?
Chris Philp
Yes, I do. We need to reform our laws to make sure that we target our protection at those who are genuinely in need, and we need to show zero tolerance to the ruthless criminals who are preying on human misery.
Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (SNP)
Will the Minister join me in paying tribute to human rights and migration lawyers, who do an essential job in upholding the rule of law and preventing the Home Office from breaking its international obligations under human rights and refugee conventions?
Chris Philp
I do not believe that the Home Office breaches its human rights obligations; we take them extremely seriously. We suffer from a large number of very late legal challenges—often repeated legal challenges, brought sequentially on ever shifting grounds—and we are working as hard as we possibly can to make sure that our laws are properly and fairly applied.
Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that our European friends and partners, not just the French, need to do more to help the UK prevent the crossings by focusing more resources and determination on cracking down on the organised criminal gangs across Europe that are exploiting individuals seeking a better life and forcing them on to boats to make perilous journeys across the channel, needlessly?
Chris Philp
I completely agree. I think European Governments have a moral obligation, as much as anything else, to join us in the work we are doing to put these dangerous and ruthless gangs out of business. They are taking the most vulnerable people, exploiting them, abusing them and taking money from them. It is completely unacceptable. We are going to take the action that we need to on our side of the channel, and I hope that other Governments around Europe do exactly the same.
Mr Speaker
In order to allow the safe exit of hon. Members participating in this item of business and the safe arrival of those participating in the next, I am suspending the House for three minutes.
Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office
(3 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab) (Urgent Question)
To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs if he will make a statement on the creation of the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office.
The Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs and First Secretary of State (Dominic Raab)
I thank the hon. Lady for her question.
The creation of the new Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office today is a key moment: a key moment for our vision of a truly global Britain, and a key moment for our integration of our international efforts in order to maximise their impact abroad. With this innovation, we are drawing on the example of many of our allies, such as Australia and Canada and, indeed, the vast majority of OECD countries, by putting our world-class aid programme at the beating heart of our wider foreign policy decision-making, and doing it in a way that works best for the United Kingdom.
We are integrating and aligning the UK’s expertise as a development superpower with the reach and clout of our diplomatic network in order to ensure that their impact internationally is bigger than the sum of their parts. We have paved the way for this approach during covid, bringing together all the relevant strands of our international activity. For example, we joined our research efforts to find a vaccine at home with our international leadership in raising the funding to ensure equitable access for the most vulnerable countries, culminating in the Prime Minister hosting the Gavi summit and smashing the target by raising $8.8 billion in global vaccine funding. That amply demonstrates how our moral and national interests are inextricably intertwined.
We continue to bolster health systems in the most vulnerable countries, not just out of a sense of moral responsibility—although there is that—but also to safeguard the people of this country from a second wave of this deadly virus. It is in that spirit, as the new FCDO comes into operation today, that I can announce that the UK will commit a further £119 million to tackle the combined threat of coronavirus and famine, so that we can do our bit to alleviate extreme hunger for over 6 million people from Yemen through to Sudan. In tandem with that, to leverage the impact of our national contribution, I have also today appointed Nick Dyer as the UK’s special envoy for famine prevention and humanitarian affairs, again as we combine our aid impact with our diplomatic leadership to focus the world’s attention and rally international support to help tackle this looming disaster and threat.
The new Department reflects the drive towards a more effective and more joined-up foreign policy, and I pay tribute to the brilliant work of my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Anne-Marie Trevelyan) and all her support directly in driving this merger forward. My team of Ministers has already been holding joint Department for International Development and Foreign and Commonwealth Office portfolios for some time now, so we will have continuity as we bed in the organisation of the new Department. Sir Philip Barton becomes the new permanent under-secretary at FCDO, the brilliant diplomat who co-ordinated the United Kingdom’s response to the Salisbury nerve agent attack back in 2018. We have also broadened the senior departmental leadership to achieve a more diverse range of expertise and experience at the top. So, as well as FCO and DFID experience, the board of directors general brings together those with wider experience from the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, Her Majesty’s Treasury and the Cabinet Office, not to mention from the private sector and the voluntary sector.
Abroad, we will operate with one voice and one line of reporting, so that all civil servants operating abroad, including our trade commissioners, will work to the relevant ambassador or high commissioner in post. Training the cadre of the new Department will be essential too, so the new International Academy launched today will train and improve the skills of all our dedicated civil servants across Government who are working internationally. To boost this excellent team, I believe it is important to bring in additional insights from outside Government. Therefore, I have also appointed Stefan Dercon, professor of economic policy at Oxford University, as my senior adviser on aid and development policy.
With the support of my tireless ministerial team, we continue to consult outside Government to test our thinking and glean new ideas for the successful operation of FCDO. I am grateful for the input we have received over the summer from hon. and right hon. Members across the House. In particular, my thanks go to the Chairs of the Foreign Affairs, International Development, and Defence Committees. I am also grateful for the advice I have had from non-governmental organisations, foundations and international organisations—from Bill Gates to David Malpass, the president of the World Bank, with whom I discussed matters yesterday.
We will reinforce that external scrutiny not just by maintaining ICAI—the Independent Commission for Aid Impact—but by strengthening its focus on the impact of our aid and the value added to our policy agenda, and by broadening its mandate to provide policy recommendations alongside its critical analysis. I am particularly grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell) for all his advice on this matter.
In this way, and informed in due course by the integrated review, the new Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office will deliver on this Government’s mission to forge a truly global Britain to defend all aspects of the British national interest and to project this country as an even stronger force for good in the world.
Lisa Nandy
I thank the Foreign Secretary for that, but the truth is that this is a complete mess. It has made a nonsense of his own review—the integrated Department has come before the integrated strategy. Thousands of staff with world-renowned expertise have been treated disgracefully, holding meetings in recent weeks with senior civil servants who cannot even answer basic questions about how this Department is going to operate. Why? Because the Government were shamed by a footballer into supporting some of the poorest children in this world. That does not bode well for a commitment to the poorest people across the planet.
The creation of the Department for International Development—the right hon. Gentleman knows—was a game changer not just for the world, but for Britain, and to put that at risk now is extraordinary. The world has never felt more unstable. We are in the midst of a global pandemic. We know that a vaccine will be successful only if it reaches the world’s poorest, and as the UK takes on the task of hosting COP26 next year, the world is wondering what on earth is going on and whether Britain is capable of rising to the scale of the challenge.
The right hon. Gentleman did not give a commitment to retain the spending of 0.7%. I want to hear that commitment from him today. He also knows that the Prime Minister said, when he described DFID as a
“giant cashpoint in the sky”,
that he would reassess the spending and the priorities of the Department. Today, the front pages of the papers say that the Chancellor is going to raid the right hon. Gentleman’s aid budget. The truth is he is losing this argument within his own Cabinet, so will he give me a cast-iron guarantee that there will be no changes to the International Development Act 2002? Will he tell us which country programmes have been identified for cuts? Where is the impact assessment and will he publish it? Where is the strategy that will guide allocation of resources? Can he confirm that ICAI will remain and that, crucially, it will remain independent? The Foreign Office and other Departments do not have a good record on aid spending. This Government ought not to be allowed to mark their own homework.
The sad fact is that, instead of a strategy for Britain’s global role, we have got a new paint job on a Government plane. Where is the ambition? Where is the strategy? On a day when we have seen the United States pull out of global efforts to find a vaccine, the Prime Minister is holed up in Downing Street, hiding from the world, where people wonder what on earth is going on. I do not envy him the mess that he has inherited, but he has to resolve it. Our standing in the world is at stake and we will not allow the Government off the hook on that basis.
Dominic Raab
Can I, I think, thank the hon. Lady for her question? It was full of assertions and various snippets from media speculation in the newspapers. Let me try to give her some substantive answers. [Interruption.] She is saying that, but why doesn’t she listen? She asked about ICAI whereas, actually, we had already announced we were keeping and reinforcing it. I made the point in my statement; it seems that she is rehashing and rehearsing the critique that she wants to make without actually listening to what we are doing.
The hon. Lady asked in particular about the search for a vaccine. That is an excellent example of where we do need to bring together our world-beating aid leverage with our diplomatic clout. That is exactly what this Prime Minister did at the GAVI summit—bringing countries together, smashing the target for global vaccine funding, which is a good complement and supplement to the research we are doing at Oxford, at Imperial and elsewhere not just to find a vaccine for the people of this country, but to ensure an equitable distribution around the world.
The hon. Lady asked about the 0.7%. The Prime Minister has been very clear on this, and the new FCDO will put our world-class development programmes at the very heart of our foreign policy. The 0.7% commitment is a manifesto commitment, and it is enshrined in law. I would just gently point out to the hon. Lady that we have hit the 0.7% aid target in every year since 2013. She is right to say that it was Labour that introduced the target back in the ’70s, but it never hit the target in any year. I think she should look at her own record before making assertions that, frankly, do not hold water.
The hon. Lady talked about a mess, but I do not think she has followed the detail of what we have done. The Order in Council that we made today during the Privy Council meeting will be laid in Parliament on 9 September and will enter into force on 30 September. That is necessary to transfer powers legally from the previous Departments and the positions of Secretary of State to their new ones. I have already answered the question on ICAI. I would have thought she would take this opportunity to welcome the things that she wants to see. We are reinforcing ICAI, and I have explained the benefit that we have had from hon. Members across the House, particularly my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell). I have also explained why we think ICAI is so important to external scrutiny, but we want to see practical recommendations to guide action, alongside the critical evaluation that it rightly does.
It is not clear to me whether the shadow Foreign Secretary opposes the measure in principle, but I think she does. If that is the case, would she reverse it? I think it is true to say, judging by the press releases coming from her colleague, the shadow International Development Secretary, that the Opposition are sticking with shadow Ministers along the old FCO and DFID lines. I am afraid that that can only leave an even more divided Opposition as we forge a more integrated and aligned foreign policy to better serve Britain and the interests of the British people.
Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con) [V]
I thank my right hon. Friend for bringing together these two important Departments. First, I want to pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Anne-Marie Trevelyan), whose work in DFID was all too brief but who I have no doubt has handed over that Department in extremely good order. On that note, will the Foreign Secretary be maintaining that? The job of our Committee will now be to oversee quite a lot of the functions that have previously been done by DFID, so we will be asking questions on financial probity and questions to ensure that the extremely high standard of DFID staff and DFID expertise is maintained. Will he maintain the skills and expertise of those fantastic people who have spent so much of our money so well? Will he ensure that the diplomatic service, which is so important and, indeed, distinct from the home civil service, is maintained and that its ethos is enhanced by being able to master not just the money but also the policy?
Dominic Raab
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for his work and thank him for his input into the work that I and junior Ministers have been engaged in over the summer to ensure that we listened to parliamentarians as well as NGOs and international organisations. I join him in paying tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed. She has done a stalwart job, and she has been nothing but committed and dedicated to working through the details of the merger.
My hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Tom Tugendhat) made the point about maintaining the high standards of expertise on both the diplomatic and the development fronts, and he is absolutely right. If he looks at the board of directors general, he will see that we have done that, as well as bringing in experience from across Whitehall and, indeed, the voluntary and private sectors. I addressed all members of staff at the new FCDO today, and I made the point that we want to drive a new, innovative Department, maintain and build on the expertise we have, and show that, as a Government and as a country, we can be bigger than the sum of our parts.
Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP)
We regret this merger. We regret it on principle, but we accept that it has happened. It was interesting that the Foreign Secretary cited Australia as a reason for it. I would refer him to the report by Richard Moore, the ex-deputy director general of AusAID, which very much found that the merged Department there was less than the sum of its parts. That is our concern for the FCDO. We on these Benches will continue to prioritise international development. My great friend, my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee West (Chris Law), will continue to be a Front Bencher in order specifically to prioritise the scrutiny of the development functions of the new Department.
I welcome the Foreign Secretary’s comments on ICAI, but I invite him to go further and express his support for the continuation of the specific scrutiny of the development function of his Department by this House. That would be very much welcomed in the cross-party discussions to continue greater scrutiny.
On the 0.7%, I am grateful for his assurances that the Prime Minister has been very clear, but may I give him an opportunity to strengthen his own hand in these discussions? Presumably the betrayal of a manifesto commitment—were that to come to pass—would be a resignation matter for the Foreign Secretary, because I do not see how anyone would possibly be able to thole that, given the situation.
Dominic Raab
The hon. Gentleman has raised a range of different issues. I thank him for his words of support for ICAI. It is important to have that external scrutiny. Frankly, as the Secretary of State—and having worked in a range of Departments—I think that scrutiny is useful for leveraging reform and getting the Department to look at new ways of doing things, so I remain open and embrace it. He asked me about the Select Committees. Normally the process is that they shadow the individual Departments, but it will ultimately be a matter for the House.
I have heard the assertion that the Australian example demonstrates how it all goes horribly wrong. Having dug a little further and talked to my opposite number, Marise Payne, I do not think that that is necessarily the case. Although it is true that it is important to learn from the different ways in which different foreign ministries operate, there is only one in the OECD that still has a separate aid ministry with a separate aid budget. Actually, the movement—certainly in the last 10 or 15 years—has all been in the other way, so it is important to draw on those lessons too. I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s advice on the 0.7% but, notwithstanding his generosity, I shall decline to accept his offer.
Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con)
We are where we are today, so it is only right to wish every success to both sides of this merger as it launches today. I welcome what the Foreign Secretary has said about the importance of ICAI and of independent evaluation, which drives up transparency, accountability and the interests of the taxpayer in value for money. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the commitment to 0.7%, which he has most helpfully underlined, is inextricably linked to the rules that govern this expenditure, and that we should not—as a country or as a Government—seek to balance the books on the backs of the poorest women and children in the world?
Dominic Raab
I thank my right hon. Friend for his advice throughout this process, which has been constructive and has drawn on his considerable experience as Secretary of State. He has certainly convinced me and the Government about the importance of ICAI, and I think its mandate can be refined and focused so that we get practical recommendations alongside critical analysis. I take the points that he has made about not just the 0.7%, but the underlying rules. Our commitment, and indeed this was our commitment during the review of official development assistance given the state of GNI, is to make sure that the bottom billion—the very poorest around the world—are prioritised, and that will be the case in the new Department.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
UNICEF has warned that covid is the greatest threat to children across the world. It estimates that 1.2 million children under five are at risk over the next six months. I am reassured by what the Foreign Secretary has said about guaranteeing the 0.7% and about the independent scrutiny, but he has not yet answered the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) about impact assessments if that should not happen.
Dominic Raab
The hon. Lady is absolutely right to warn about the risk of covid and famine, and particularly children at risk. I hope that she will be reassured by taking a look at the detail of the £119 million that we have announced today to address the threat of famine in the countries worst hit by coronavirus. The sum includes £25 million for UNICEF to support feeding centres in Yemen that provide treatment for malnourished children under the age of five. It includes £15 million in cash transfers and food aid for the most insecure households and families, including children, in Afghanistan. In areas such as South Sudan, which is dealing with internally displaced people, there is £8 million for shelters to deal with some of the most vulnerable, which will of course include children.
Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) (Con)
The pandemic has demonstrated just how important it is that our development and diplomatic efforts are fused more closely together. Does my right hon. Friend agree that this new approach, bringing together all our efforts in different countries, will make sure that we can further our aims while ensuring that we continue to help the world’s poorest?
Dominic Raab
My hon. Friend is exactly right. As I said in my opening response to the urgent question, the link between our moral duty and the raw British national interest is clear: preventing a second wave of coronavirus in some of the most vulnerable countries is not just the right thing to do, but will help to safeguard the United Kingdom and the people of this country from a second wave.
Kate Osborne (Jarrow) (Lab)
For decades, the Department for International Development has helped to improve millions of lives overseas by leading the way in tackling extreme poverty and gender inequality. Will the Secretary of State explain how the new Department will continue that vital work and play a leading role on the international stage, especially when so many countries are struggling during this unprecedented time? Does he really think that now is the right time for the change?
Dominic Raab
I totally agree with hon. Lady, which is why we have made it clear in our mission statement and in our strategy that, for example, dealing with and addressing the poverty of the most poor, least developing countries remains central to our foreign policy. Likewise, the hon. Lady mentioned gender equality, and our campaign to ensure that every girl gets 12 years of quality education is absolutely central to our “force for good” work. I hope that I can not only reassure her in respect of her concerns but show her that there is an opportunity, as we bring together our diplomatic network with our aid leverage, to show that we can have even greater impact as a force for good in the world.
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
Aid is all about jobs, so will the Secretary of State maintain a rigorous focus on economic development in the world’s poorest countries? Otherwise, there will be ever more small boats crossing the channel.
Dominic Raab
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. One reason for integrating, not just in the new Department but in the structures that we have across Government, is to make sure that all aspects of our foreign policy are joined together. Trade and the work that the Secretary of State for International Trade is doing—she is doing an absolutely fantastic job—is critical, not just in countries such as the US and Australia but in the poorest countries, where a liberal approach to free trade can lift millions out of poverty.
Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD)
Coronavirus, climate change—it has never been more important to understand that we all share one planet and that it is in our interests to help others through the sustainable development goals and by staying with 0.7% unequivocally, so I will try one more time: will the Secretary of State commit, right here and now, to fighting for all that money to be maintained in his budget to be there for poverty reduction and economic development?
Dominic Raab
I congratulate the hon. Lady on her new shadow position and congratulate her on and pay tribute to her leadership campaign, which she conducted with conviction and integrity, as ever. She is absolutely right that we must look after the poorest. We have had an ODA review because of the impact of coronavirus on the economy and on gross national income. We have made it clear—I think this can give her the assurance she seeks—that we are absolutely committed, as we were in that review, to safeguarding the money for the very poorest, for girls’ education and for COP26 and our climate change goals. I agree with the hon. Lady about COP26. We are making sure that we use our aid money and our development expertise to provide 26 million people with access to clean energy and we are supporting farmers to grow climate-resilient crops. In all those ways, the bringing together of our development expertise with our Foreign Office reach and clout can show that we can have even greater impact in the months and years ahead.
Felicity Buchan (Kensington) (Con)
Next year, we take over the presidency of the G7; will my right hon. Friend set out our objectives for that leadership position?
Dominic Raab
We have a global leadership role next year, not only with the G7 but in hosting COP26 and various other international fora. Our specific items for the G7 have not been set out yet—we would not expect that this early—but I can tell my hon. Friend that we will want to show that we are a global force for good across the piece, whether it comes to trade, climate change or girls’ education. The Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office will be a major motor—an engine for driving maximum impact, not only in value for taxpayers’ money but in helping the very poorest in the world.
Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab) [V]
I am grateful to the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary for their commitment to 0.7%, but do they also commit to the Development Assistance Committee’s definition of what constitutes aid? Does the Foreign Secretary agree that the Independent Commission for Aid Impact needs to remain fully independent?
Dominic Raab
I think I answered the ICAI question earlier, but I am happy to reassure the hon. Lady and reaffirm that we will not just keep ICAI but strengthen and sharpen its focus, because we welcome and want to see the scrutiny. Indeed, I would like to see more practical policy recommendations, not just the critical analysis. I thank her for what she said about 0.7%. She is right that the DAC rules are an important part of the global infrastructure. There is plenty of scope, and it is absolutely right, for us to ensure that we get maximum value for British taxpayers’ money and to drive a foreign policy that deals with some of the challenges we share with other countries around the world and fulfils our moral responsibilities but delivers for the British people here at home as well.
Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) (Con)
I welcome the merger and a new, bold global foreign policy. When it comes to aid, can my right hon. Friend tell me why we sent £71 million of taxpayers’ money to China, the world’s second largest economy? Linked to that, can he commit to tackling the genocide that China is undertaking against the Uyghur, with 2 million incarcerated, and show leadership on the international stage by starting with the Magnitsky sanctions and ending with holding a tribunal against the Chinese authorities, who are undertaking human rights abuses against the Uyghur?
Dominic Raab
I thank my hon. Friend for her campaigning on this, and in particular the Uyghur Muslims. She will know that we led a statement in the UN Human Rights Council with 26 other states for the first time ever on not just the human rights abuses in Hong Kong but the threats and the violations of the human rights of the Uyghur Muslims. We will continue to look at that very carefully with our international partners. We certainly have not ruled out deployment of Magnitsky sanctions there or elsewhere. I am afraid she will have to wait to see the further designations that we have planned in due course.
Mick Whitley (Birkenhead) (Lab)
For over 20 years, the Department for International Development has done incredibly important work, helping countries in the global south to tackle the causes of climate change and promote sustainable development. Will the Secretary of State concede that the decision to merge the Foreign Office and the Department for International Development undermines the UK’s commitment to fight climate change and promote sustainable, equitable growth across the globe?
Dominic Raab
The hon. Gentleman is right to raise the point about climate change. As my hon. Friend the noble Lord Goldsmith is showing, one of the things that we have done effectively and will continue to do with this integration is bring in Ministers, as he is working for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs but also has both the development and diplomatic portfolios. Bringing those together will ensure that the new FCDO can support to the maximum effect our hosting of COP26 and deliver a shift in the dial and in the efforts and progress towards delivering a cleaner, greener economy as we come through coronavirus.
Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)
The Foreign Secretary has referred to the food crisis in east Africa, which is indeed acute. Will he therefore use this first day of the new Department to contact potential foreign donors to ask them to up their game? I am very appreciative of what our Government have done by means of contribution to provide food for people in that part of the world, but will he ask other potential international donors to do the same?
Dominic Raab
My hon. Friend must be telepathic, because today we have announced £119 million to deal with the threat of covid and the accentuated risk of famine across the world, but particularly in Africa. He mentioned east Africa. That money will apply to Somalia, South Sudan and Sudan. He is absolutely right, and it is a good illustration of the rationale for this merger: as well as leading by example, we need to garner the international community to reinforce what we are doing, which is exactly why I have today appointed Nick Dyer as the UK’s special envoy for famine prevention and humanitarian issues, to ensure that we are coaxing and cajoling other countries follow our lead. That is the way we will deliver the greatest impact and help alleviate the potential suffering of a second wave and all the famine that that threatens to bring.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op)
The Foreign Secretary’s colleague the Minister for Africa and I have visited aid projects on the continent a number of times. Liberia was one of the first trips we went on. We saw how, during the Ebola crisis, attention diverted to Ebola led to the rise of tuberculosis resistance. The thing that stops that is experts who know development and health, and who are not just diplomats. Will the Foreign Secretary therefore give me reassurances that pathways into the new Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office will not just be through the diplomatic service? Will he ensure that the Government will not block the continuation of the International Development Committee that the Minister for Africa and I both sat on for a number of years?
Dominic Raab
I thank the hon. Gentleman; I think he raises a very important point. However, I also think it works in favour of the merger, because it is precisely for the reasons he gives that we want to not just to retain but infuse in the FCDO the aid expertise and development experience that DFID brings. We want to join that in with the diplomatic muscle, clout, leverage and reach we have and make sure that they are both working in tandem. If we are successful in doing that—I am confident we will be—we will deliver what he wishes to see.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
In the 1990s I worked very closely with the ODA, which was then wound into DFID. I had a very good impression of how the ODA worked—it was invaluable on the ground in the Balkans. The ODA was run by Lynda Chalker, who was a Minister of State in the Foreign Office. Following up on the previous question, which was a good question, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether the division in the Foreign Office will work in the same way as the ODA worked? If that is the model, it is a pretty good model.
Dominic Raab
I thank my hon. Friend and pay tribute to the work he did in the Balkans. We first met when he was giving expert evidence to the Yugoslavia tribunal. Indeed, I talked to Malcolm Rifkind about precisely that model. Obviously, he had the experience of when the aid and development expertise were joined up with the previous FCO. My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We will make sure that we have an integrated approach: our diplomatic network and reach combined with our aid expertise. I am bringing in some outside expertise, such as Professor Dercon, to make sure we get that right. There is a huge opportunity right across the world, including in that part of the world, to make sure we maximise our impact but not lose sight of the fact that we want our broader UK national interest to be reflected in the approach we take on development and aid.
Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) [V]
Can the Foreign Secretary respond directly to the Whitehall sources quoted in The Times this morning regarding using the aid budget on military spending? In what world does crowbarring DFID into the Foreign Office and then using the aid budget in that way honour the spirit of 0.7% or help those around the world who are in the most desperate need of genuine development help?
Dominic Raab
It is a generous offer to start commenting on every bit of pre-comprehensive spending review tittle-tattle reported in the media. All I can say is that not an element of it has reflected or characterised the conversations I have had across Government.
Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con)
Many of my constituents will want us to go even further with these changes, given the inequalities and need to level up at home. Will my right hon. Friend assure me that there will be a very clear alignment with our national interest and our ambitious foreign policy, ensuring our aid spending is directly in line with the UK’s priorities overseas?
Dominic Raab
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Interestingly, in Africa there is probably the strongest case for joining not just our diplomatic work with our aid budget and our development expertise, but what the Ministry of Defence is doing. There is an inextricable link, contrary to the previous question, between security and stability, and the opportunities for those countries and the most vulnerable people to flourish and thrive.
Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance) [V]
The Foreign Secretary made reference to the integrated review. Can he comment on why the call for evidence makes no reference to promoting democracy or upholding human rights or to the UK’s commitment to international institutions, especially given this year is the UN’s 75th anniversary?
Dominic Raab
I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that each of those strands is a critical element of the integrated review.
Mrs Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree with me and my South Derbyshire constituents that as we lead the world’s efforts to recover from the coronavirus pandemic now is the right time to move to the creation of the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, as it will allow us to seize the opportunities that lie ahead and bring our international effort together?
Dominic Raab
My hon. Friend is right, and I pay tribute to the work she did as Minister for Asia. She has seen at first hand why this is so important. Covid actually reinforced the case: the ministerial groups that brought together all aspects of international decision making in relation to covid, from repatriation of nationals through to the purchase of PPE and the search for a vaccine, showed how effectively we could work when we worked closely together and the gap in the absence of integration, which is what the merger will deliver today.
Mr Gagan Mohindra (South West Hertfordshire) (Con)
The UK can be proud of the impact our overseas aid has on some of the poorest people in the world, and I know that this will continue under my right hon. Friend. Does he agree that today’s merger is an opportunity for the UK to have an every greater impact and influence on the world stage as we make the most of the global Britain agenda and the recovery from the coronavirus?
Dominic Raab
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Given that London is a centre for dispute resolution, given our diplomatic expertise in conflict resolution and given the role of aid and development in conflict stabilisation, there is a really strong case for bringing all those elements together in a concerted and coherent way so that we can be an even stronger force for good in the world.
Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op) [V]
Robust independent scrutiny helps to ensure that aid reaches those who need it most and that UK taxpayers get maximum value for money. This is the mission of the Independent Commission for Aid Impact. What evidence does the Foreign Secretary have that there are any deficiencies in its independent work of providing scrutiny, transparency and accountability of the UK aid budget and of identifying future priorities that cause him to undertake a review of its work, and when will this review be complete?
Dominic Raab
I hope the hon. Lady has not misunderstood what I said. We are keeping and reinforcing ICAI. I pay tribute to the work it does. In the example I gave, I was saying not that it was deficient but that it could do even better, in particular by not just providing critical analysis but bringing a new and additional focus—not subtracting but adding—on practical policy recommendations. What I really want and welcome, and what the Department welcomes, is critical scrutiny, practical advice and ways to ensure that in the combined FCDO we deliver maximum impact, particularly in the dispensing of precious taxpayers’ money.
Robin Millar (Aberconwy) (Con)
I welcome my right hon. Friend’s linking of moral duty, diplomacy and aid in his remarks this morning. I accept that the Department is going through a merger—a process of transition—and that some change is inevitable, but what assurance can he give that existing letters of arrangement for critical aid projects will be honoured? Also will he review the short notice periods—sometimes as little as three months—that some of these multi-year, multi-million-pound projects are being asked to deliver against and which risk compromising their effective delivery?
Dominic Raab
The CSR will be an opportunity to make sure the various aspects my hon. Friend mentions are covered, but I can reassure him that there is no obligation we have undertaken that we will not discharge.
Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)
The anxiety on the Opposition Benches is that this signals a diminution in Britain’s commitment as a global leader at a time when global leadership is so badly needed, and that we are going instead to retrench to narrow national interests. It is very welcome that the Foreign Secretary said that that is not the case and he has a chance to prove this right now with regards to the covid-19 vaccine. What we are seeing is that the wealthiest countries are buying up lots and lots of the prospective doses, which is entirely natural if countries act as individuals, but if we want to globally tackle this horrendous virus, it is a very bad way to do it. So I wonder, in the spirit of global leadership, whether the Foreign Secretary could tell us what actions he is taking now for a just and medically beneficial approach to a global distribution of a vaccine of which we do not have enough doses yet?
Dominic Raab
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his very focused and legitimate question. Obviously, the UK is seeking to lead at every level. We have the trials and the research that our world-beating scientists are undertaking, particularly Oxford and Imperial, but there are others as well. On top of that, one of things we have been working on, through our contributions both to CEPI—the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations—and also through the Gavi summit, which I have already mentioned, is to make sure not only that we can pioneer and innovate a safe and usable vaccine, but that we can raise the money to make sure that there is a fair and just, equitable distribution. We want to make sure everyone in this country is immunised by this vaccine, but we also want to make sure that is true for other countries around the world. I think that is particularly important both for the moral reasons that, I think, he and I agree on, and for practical reasons, which is that it would safeguard us—Europe and the people of this country—from a second wave of the virus.
John Howell (Henley) (Con)
Given the importance of education in the work with the new Department, does this mean that the creation of the new Department will lead to an urgent review of UK-funded material supplied to Palestinian teachers, and will it lead to the publication of the UK interim report into this subject, however valueless that may be?
Dominic Raab
Last week, I was in Jerusalem and in Ramallah on the west bank. I raised this issue of textbooks with the Prime Minister—Prime Minister Shtayyeh, whom I worked for 22 years ago—and there is an EU-related review ongoing. We have made it very clear that we want to see full co-operation and engagement with that. We are looking very carefully at the outcome of it, and of course we will then be able to assess what we do on aid. He is absolutely right to raise the point, and I am hopefully in a position to give him the reassurance he needs.
Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab)
Water, sanitation and hygiene funding is essential for achieving disease control and prevention, poverty reduction and gender equality. I am dismayed that the first act of this new Department—this takeover of DFID by the FCO—has been to cut the UK’s foreign aid budget by £2.9 billion. Will the Secretary of State demonstrate his commitment and prove his commitment to poverty reduction by committing to increase spending on water, sanitation and hygiene projects?
Dominic Raab
What I would say first is that of course we would have a review of our aid budget as a result of the impact of the 0.7%; that comes with the target. I think the hon. Member’s own Front-Bench team have accepted that. What I can tell her, though, is that we were very clear not just to salami slice budgets. So when I took the chairmanship of the review that we conducted with Departments across Whitehall, we preserved focus and the funding for the bottom billion—the poverty reduction for the poorest around the world. We preserved and we made sure that we safeguarded the money prioritised for climate change, for girls’ education, for covid-19 and also for a range of the “force for good” campaigns for media freedom and girls’ education, as I have already mentioned, that I discuss, and in that way we have had a strategic approach. So, yes, we have had to review it in line with our commitment to adhere to a 0.7% pledge, but we have done it in a strategic way, and I think when she looks at the detail, she can be reassured.
Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the covid pandemic has highlighted the benefits, if not the imperative, to join up our diplomatic and development efforts? But in particular, can I welcome the better access to the unparalleled soft power our DFID colleagues will have of Wilton Park in my constituency of Arundel and South Downs?
Dominic Raab
My hon. Friend makes a great plug for Wilton Park, which is dear to my heart. It does great work and certainly helps leverage our soft power effort. More generally, he has made the case that covid has demonstrated not just why integrating foreign policy is so important, but why we should go further with the merger. We found that, whether it came to procurement of PPE, repatriation of British nationals, critically, the search for a vaccine and, as hon. Members on both sides of the House have said, making sure that it is equitably distributed around the world.
Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)
I am glad to have heard a few Members talk about the excellent work and expertise of DFID staff. I am sure that a number of the staff, including many who work in my constituency, would be keen for the Secretary of State to take action to make sure that there is early awareness of these staff and exactly what the future will hold for them, in more detail than is currently available to them. Is he able to give some indication of when that detail is likely to be forthcoming?
Dominic Raab
I am happy for the hon. Lady to write to me with any specific concerns. I have spoken to DFID staff. Indeed I did a FCDO all-staffer today and we made it very clear what approach we are taking. We want to energise our brilliant diplomats’ development expertise but also forge a new culture. We are also committed to making sure that we have a stronger presence across all the nations and indeed all the regions of the UK because it is important that Scotland sees and the people of Scotland see the value added that we yield when we come together as one United Kingdom, but also with this merger.
Gareth Davies (Grantham and Stamford) (Con)
As my right hon. Friend rightly said, next year, this country will host COP26 and the presidency of the G7. Does he therefore agree that this is excellent timing to bring our security, foreign and development work together?
Dominic Raab
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. In politics, I personally believe in show, not just tell. Whether it is covid, the Gavi summit and the search for a vaccine, COP26, or the work that we are doing in Yemen, which obviously involves a conflict resolution element as well as a humanitarian element, all of it demonstrates the scope for delivering greater impact in our foreign policy. Next year will be an opportunity to show a truly global Britain. The FCDO will be at the heart of those efforts to ensure that we can live up to our potential as an even stronger force for good in the world.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
I am glad that the Secretary of State mentioned Yemen. Will this merger between the Departments make it easier to solve cases such as that of my constituent, Luke Symons, who is being held by the Houthis in Yemen? Will bringing together humanitarian and foreign policy efforts in any way assist in those kinds of cases?
Dominic Raab
I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has raised that case. He knows that we have been working very hard on behalf of his constituent and I know that he has been a doughty champion of him. The broader point that he makes is right. We have a stronger impact in Yemen, bringing our aid influence with the diplomatic work that we are doing, working with UN Special Envoy Martin Griffiths, but also trying to alleviate the humanitarian plight and talking to all our international partners—Saudi Arabia, the other countries of the region and the Five Eyes—to try to get this conflict resolved. It is the right thing for all the protagonists to that conflict, but above all it is the right thing for the people of Yemen. Yes, in those circumstances, we have a greater chance of securing the outcome that he wants for his constituent.
Miss Sarah Dines (Derbyshire Dales) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree with me and my constituents in the Derbyshire Dales that the guiding purpose of the new Department will be to promote UK interests abroad and that the use of UK aid will be linked to that?
Dominic Raab
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that the people who fund our aid programme—the people who are represented by a democratically elected Government—expect to see the British national interest, the UK interest, delivered. I do not see any contradiction in relation to raising international funding for a vaccine that is equitably distributed. I do not think there is any conflict. In fact, I think the two elements of moral responsibility and the grittier national interest of the United Kingdom go hand in hand.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Secretary of State for his answers to the questions. Will he agree to appoint a specific Minister to attend Cabinet and the National Security Council to be responsible for championing the sustainable development goals, overseeing transparent and effective official development assistance to help the Government keep their commitments to the world’s most vulnerable while, as everyone would like to see, ensuring that British taxpayers have their money well spent?
Dominic Raab
I can give my hon. Friend that assurance, and that person will be me.
Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) (Con) [V]
Can my right hon. Friend reassure me that the UK’s leading international role in tackling climate change, including programmes such as Partnerships for Forests, and in improving resilience to climate change in developing countries, will be enhanced through the join-up of our diplomatic and development efforts, and that funding will be maintained?
Dominic Raab
Climate change is a great example of why we need more integration. We have a Minister holding three portfolios—now two, with the merger—in my noble Friend Lord Goldsmith. Actually, when I speak to my counterparts abroad, I want to be able to raise a variety of matters every time, whether it is their nationally determined contribution, or the opportunity to strengthen resilience to climate change, adaptation and the transition away from coal. Having an integrated Department that can not only talk about those goals—the goals of DEFRA and the COP26 unit—but also link those to the other aspects of foreign policy, is absolutely crucial.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
The CDC has spent £680 million on fossil-fuel projects since 2010, according to CAFOD. The Secretary of State is fond of telling us that he is all about show, not tell. Will he show us by ending this hidden support for fossil fuels, which only adds to carbon emissions around the world, and end the mockery that is the Government’s pretence that they are taking meaningful action to combat the climate emergency?
Dominic Raab
The example that the hon. Gentleman cites is an historic one. We will make sure that it cannot be repeated or replicated in future.
Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con) [V]
Almost no amount of material wealth could now compensate me if I was to lose the freedom to be myself that I finally exercised almost exactly 10 years ago. We pride ourselves on being global leaders in supporting LGBT+ people around the world to enable them to exercise that freedom. Will the Secretary of State confirm that his new combined Department will now not only sustain but increase the resources available for Britain to continue to lead the world in addressing the impoverishment of the soul that comes from not being free to be oneself?
Dominic Raab
I thank my hon. Friend and pay tribute to him for his courage and his conviction. He is absolutely right. Indeed, before the merger—but I think reinforced by it—we were making sure that the freedom agenda was at the core of our “force for good” priorities. I think he can see that in the media freedom campaign that we are co-partnering with our Canadian friends, right the way through to the Magnitsky sanctions that I recently introduced, which we are currently working on in tandem with the EU sanctions that are being considered in relation, for example, to the violation of human rights in Belarus.
Charlotte Nichols (Warrington North) (Lab)
What measures will the Secretary of State take, and what reports will be made to this House, in the next six months to review the success or otherwise of the merger?
Dominic Raab
We obviously have the integrated review, and we have the work of ICAI and of course the Select Committee. So, ultimately, a combination of external scrutiny and the parliamentary scrutiny of this House will, I am sure, hold us to account. We do not shrink from that; we welcome it.
Jerome Mayhew (Broadland) (Con)
World Bank data shows that over the past 20 years, the percentage of world trade taken up by developing countries has increased from 33% to 48%, and during that process has halved extreme poverty around the world. Given that stunning success for capitalism, will my right hon. Friend take advantage of the merger to refocus our efforts to stimulate international trade with the United Kingdom?
Dominic Raab
My hon. and learned Friend is absolutely right. I spoke to the president of the World Bank yesterday and I totally accept his case. One of the reasons that our vision for a truly global Britain will tilt, if you like, to the Indo-Pacific region is the scope for using liberal free trade, not just to benefit the businesses, the workers and the consumers of this country, but to lift living standards around the world. Of course, that could have no greater impact than in Africa, where we will combine a more liberal approach to free trade than, I venture, they would get from the EU—an approach to business investment with integrity, which I think is necessary, given some of the reports we have of Russian and Chinese investment, coupled with our development and our “force for good” agenda, which I think shows the triple whammy of the impact that this new merger can deliver.
Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)
I was an aid worker both before and after DFID was established, and I can tell the Foreign Secretary that the change in the way that British aid was delivered and the respect that Britain had after DFID was established was absolutely transformational, and that transformation impacted people’s lives directly. The fact that four out of five of the fastest-growing economies in the world are African, and that all 10 of the fastest-growing economies in the world are formerly developing countries, is in no small part thanks to Britain’s leadership. We did that not by being transactional with aid but by recognising that it was in our interests to do the right thing. Will the Foreign Secretary tell us how he will judge the success or failure of the new merged Department? If it does not match the achievements of DFID, will he have a rethink?
Dominic Raab
I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman’s experience. He looks too young to have been hanging around the aid world for quite that long. He is right, and that is why the innovations that DFID undertook at the time, which were right for the time, will be banked, kept and safeguarded within the new FCDO. There was a struggle to make the case for change back then, and it is worth being open-minded about the innovations that we can fuse, forge and meld together to get even greater value for money. I pay tribute to the work of DFID’s staff. I think we have an even greater opportunity, coupling our approach to liberal free trade, our development expertise, our diplomatic clout and our approach to conflict stabilisation, to deliver even greater outcomes. The hon. Gentleman’s point about accountability and outcomes is precisely why we are reviewing and reinforcing the work of ICAI.
Julie Marson (Hertford and Stortford) (Con)
I was delighted recently to visit my local Stort Valley branch of Results UK. Will my right hon. Friend join me in assuring that group of passionate and compassionate people that, for the reasons he outlined, these changes will only enhance our commitment and efficacy in alleviating poverty and providing better healthcare, sanitation, water and education across the developing world?
Dominic Raab
I pay tribute to the work of my hon. Friend and her constituents in championing this case. Public health outcomes are a very good illustration of where aid and development policy has clear, measurable and deliverable results. That is not just good for the countries in which we operate—we have seen the impact of reducing and eliminating the blight of polio, and there are other areas where we can focus just as well—or a moral responsibility, although I am impressed with the passion with which my hon. Friend spoke, but something that directly affects the people of this country.
Dr Ben Spencer (Runnymede and Weybridge) (Con)
Following the creation of the new FCDO, will my right hon. Friend reaffirm that tackling poverty and gender inequality will remain priorities of the Department?
Dominic Raab
I thank my hon. Friend and constituency neighbour. He is absolutely right. As I made clear in relation to the ODA review and the force for good agenda, tackling inequalities through, for example, our campaign to deliver a minimum of 12 years’ education for every girl, no matter what their background, and in relation more generally to prioritising the least developing countries and the bottom billion, the priorities that are dear to his heart will remain at the very centre—they will be the heartbeat—of the new FCDO.
Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)
Let us be honest: in reality, our moral and national interest will not always be, as the Foreign Secretary says, inextricably intertwined. Sometimes doing the moral, right thing might not do us any national good whatsoever—so what then? Will he, for instance, commit to continue and increase funds to support Syrian refugees in Lebanon and Jordan?
Dominic Raab
The hon. Gentleman is right to put the challenge, but I am not quite so pessimistic as he is about whether we can overcome it. If he looks at the Magnitsky sanctions, he will be surprised at some of the designations—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd Russell-Moyle) chunters from a sedentary position, but he has absolutely nailed it: people did not expect us to apply sanctions in the Khashoggi case or in some others. The approach that this Government and the Prime Minister have taken on Hong Kong has been intuitive but well planned. Opening up to British nationals (overseas) and offering them a path to citizenship shows that we absolutely will be robust on our values, even when some may argue that there is tension with, for example, our economic or commercial interest.
Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Valley) (Con)
Taxpayers’ money should always be directed towards our national interests and security, so can my right hon. Friend confirm that aid directed towards state-building in developing countries is in our best interests? As we help to build economies and democracies, people will be able to stay in their own countries, rather than making the perilous journey towards Europe.
Dominic Raab
My hon. Friend makes very powerfully the point about the connection between our values and our practical interests—stemming conflict and being true to, living up to and having confidence in our values abroad, without engaging in what can be caricatured as a neo-imperialist agenda, are important not just for the health and vibrancy of the countries in which we operate, particularly in Africa, but in stemming the flow of potentially harmful groups, such as terrorist groups, and the wider volume of migration, which can have negative impacts in the UK.
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP) [V]
If the Secretary of State is so concerned about what he describes as tittle-tattle emerging in the press from Cabinet meetings, he should perhaps ask the Prime Minister to clamp down on the person that we know is the source of most of that tittle-tattle: I will leave that to him. He did not really answer the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) earlier, so can I ask him a direct question? Will he give an absolute assurance that under no circumstances will the 60p per day that each of us contributes to the overseas development budget be used for spying or for military purposes?
Dominic Raab
I think there is a misunderstanding: ODA can already be used for some MOD-related activity. The hon. Gentleman would not expect me to comment on operational intelligence matters, but I can reassure him that we are absolutely committed to harnessing our aid budget and our development expertise to help the most vulnerable around the world. As hon. Member after hon. Member has said—I think there is a core of agreement across the House on this principle—we do not see a divergence between our moral interest and the UK national interest in that regard.
Scott Mann (North Cornwall) (Con)
I welcome today’s announcement of the fusion between the Foreign Office and international development. May I suggest to the Secretary of State that now would be an appropriate time to revisit our high foreign aid commitment? When I ask my constituents, in the light of the current climate, if they would prefer tax rises or cuts to budgets such as foreign aid, the answer is very clear. Will the Department consider that as part of the spending review?
Dominic Raab
I thank my hon. Friend. It is perfectly legitimate to ask that question—constituents ask me and they ask him. Of course, one of the things about 0.7% is that when the economy goes down, aid spending goes down, and we have just conducted an ODA review that reduced the overall overspend by £2.9 billion. That follows from the target, but as I have already made clear to the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy), we have made sure that we prioritise covid, climate change, girls’ education and looking after the most vulnerable and poorest people right across the world. That is what our constituents expect, and I think it is the right thing to do.
Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con)
I hope this merger brings to an end the narrative that suggests that Foreign Office staff are somehow the dirty cousins of the humanitarian workers in the Government. Working at the Foreign Office, I was always deeply frustrated that there was no celebratory marker or flag on FCO-funded projects such as bridges, schools and education and training programmes. Please can we stand up proud of not just UK aid programmes, but all Foreign Office programmes that better the countries we invest in?
Dominic Raab
My hon. Friend is absolutely right and, like her, I wear the Union Jack flag on my lapel with great pride. As we deliver impact, and as we are a truly global nation and an even stronger force for good, we should champion our values, and people should know that it is the United Kingdom, including under a Conservative Government, that are doing that.
Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)
Back in June, I tabled a written question asking what the total cost to the taxpayer was of the merger. The Department could not provide an answer at the time. Can the Secretary of State do so today?
Dominic Raab
I thank the hon. Gentleman. Over time, I am very confident that we will be able to deliver administrative savings because, of course, of back-office staff and other efficiencies. Of course, the work in terms of calculating the short, medium and long-term effects will be part of the CSR, and if the hon. Gentleman wrote to me, I would be very happy to write to give him a more detailed response.
Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con)
I welcome my right hon. Friend’s repeated commitment to the welfare of women and girls as part of the aid budget. May I invite him to consider this merger as a catalyst to revive the prevention of sexual violence initiative pioneered by his predecessor in relation to the crucial work it does in tackling rape as a weapon of war?
Dominic Raab
I thank my hon. Friend for that, and she is absolutely right. This initiative has not slipped into the ether; it is still very much a part of our core priorities. Along with our campaign on girls’ education, it shows not just a matter of principle, but that the welfare of any healthy society means that they have to take care of, nourish and nurture the women and young girls who make up their society.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)
I propose not to suspend the House and to let us just get on with things, if people would just leave quietly and carefully, keeping their proper social distance, because it is obvious to me that everyone taking part in the next items of business is already in their place. People must not stand around talking—just leave the Chamber, please. We will proceed immediately to the presentation of a Bill by Margaret Ferrier.
Virtual participation in proceedings concluded (Order, 4 June.)
Bills Presented
Cash Machines Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Margaret Ferrier, supported by Jamie Stone, Jim Shannon, Martyn Day, Ronnie Cowan, John McNally and Douglas Chapman, presented a Bill to prohibit charges for the use of cash machines; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 27 November and to be printed (Bill 171).
Climate and Ecology Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Caroline Lucas, supported by Alex Sobel, Tommy Sheppard, Wera Hobhouse, Ben Lake, Claire Hanna, Stephen Farry, Clive Lewis, Alan Brown, Liz Saville Roberts, Nadia Whittome and Zarah Sultana, presented a Bill to require the Prime Minister to achieve climate and ecology objectives; to give the Secretary of State a duty to create and implement a strategy to achieve those objectives; to establish a Citizens’ Assembly to work with the Secretary of State in creating that strategy; to give duties to the Committee on Climate Change regarding the objectives and strategy; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 12 March 2021 and to be printed (Bill 172).
Recall of MPs (Change of Party Affiliation)
Wednesday 2nd September 2020
(3 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Recall of MPs (Change of Party Affiliation) Bill 2019-21 View all Recall of MPs (Change of Party Affiliation) Bill 2019-21 Debates Read Hansard Text
15:14 - The House divided: - Ayes: 55 / Noes: 52 - Question accordingly agreed to.
A Ten Minute Rule Bill is a First Reading of a Private Members Bill, but with the sponsor permitted to make a ten minute speech outlining the reasons for the proposed legislation.
There is little chance of the Bill proceeding further unless there is unanimous consent for the Bill or the Government elects to support the Bill directly.
For more information see: Ten Minute Bills
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)
I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to enable the recall of Members of the House of Commons who voluntarily change their political party affiliation; and for connected purposes.
This Bill seeks to update the Recall of MPs Act 2015 with a fourth recall condition: any MP who voluntarily leaves the political party they represented upon their election to the House of Commons becomes subject to a recall petition. Such a petition would occur by Mr Speaker giving notice to a petitions officer, who would in turn give notice to the parliamentary electors in the relevant constituency, after which a petition would be open for eight weeks. If at the end of that period at least 10% of the eligible electors had signed that petition, the seat would be declared vacant and a by-election would be held. It is important to note and understand that the petition acts as the safety mechanism to preventing a needless by-election; if our constituents view the action of crossing the Floor as principled and just, the threshold would not be met and the onerous task of holding a by-election would not be undertaken. But should the threshold be met, a by-election would be called and the Member who had been recalled would be able to stand.
This is the second time this House has been faced with such a debate. In 2011, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore) proposed a similar course of action. Sadly, it did not make progress, but had it done so, I fear that the 2019 parliamentary arithmetic would have been radically different. In the course of my remarks, I hope to be able to build on my right hon. Friend’s points and to respond to some of the counter-arguments made all those years ago by my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley), who is now the Father of the House.
If any Member has had the pleasure of visiting my constituency, they may well have caught sight of the septic tank cleaning lorry that carries the words “full of political promises” on its side. The lorry neatly encapsulates the all-too-prevalent view that political promises are not worth the paper they are written on and that politicians are not to be trusted.
Every generation of politician makes this claim. It was certainly made in 2011, and I am making it nine years later, and I think that I can argue with a greater degree of certainty that it is the case. Last year, 17 Members of Parliament crossed the Floor, leaving the parties they were elected to represent. That was more than had done so in the 16 years previously, and not one of them consulted their constituents. In effect, that disenfranchised the 1.2 million electors across their 17 seats for the duration of that Parliament. Although we are not here to follow every instruction from our party’s leadership—and I should know—resigning from the party we were elected as a representative of to campaign for policies diametrically opposed to the ones we were elected to support is clearly a breach of the spirit of the contract between ourselves and our constituents. That unwritten bond between ourselves and our electors is the reason I am proposing this Bill.
I do not presume to judge those who have crossed the Floor. Their actions were based on their own principles and their own values. Previous Members of great repute have done so, including Churchill. However, my ask is that, through this Bill, we can no longer take a decision that ignores our constituents and the value of their vote. In recent years, only a handful of Members have done the right thing by their constituents. Whether one feels strongly about it or not, Douglas Carswell and Mark Reckless, who decided to join the UK Independence party in 2014, still held by-elections and at least gave their constituents a say. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood said, this
“should be the rule, not the exception.”—[Official Report, 23 November 2011; Vol. 536, c. 318.]
I am all too aware of the counter-arguments to this proposal. We are, as Burke argued, elected as representatives, not delegates; nor should we be bound by party constraint. This is a valid argument. I wholeheartedly believe that the true value of an MP is that the voice of their respective constituency is made in Westminster and not the other way round. But an argument made in the 1770s, when political life and party structures were so radically different, must surely be updated and modernised in the 2020s.
For example, the role of political parties in election campaigns has steadily progressed and evolved over the generations. We may all believe that we are elected due to our own brilliance, but I would urge caution that Members let this thought run away with them. [Interruption.] I can see that Scottish National party Members might agree with that premise. We are selected by a political party. Our literature is embossed with the emblems of parties. We are supported by volunteers who share our values and often hold party membership. Above all, we pledge our support to our party manifesto detailing our policies and philosophy. Owing to the Representation of the People Act 1969, our electorates are greeted in every voting booth across the country with our names, our party names and our party logos. In short, we benefit significantly from the role that the party plays in each and every one of our elections.
Parties are therefore often more visible than the candidate, from their leaders to their Cabinets and their manifestos. They act as a magnet to either attract or repel voters to or from to their cause. So when a candidate who has campaigned using those logos, promoting that manifesto and supporting that leader switches sides, they are doing so against everything they told the thousands of voters they connected with during the election. This is not promoting democracy; it is degrading it. Some may well disagree with that point, but it is only reinforced by the fact that Members of this place, on both sides of the House, do not stand as Independents.
Not only is there domestic precedent for those who have held by-elections when crossing the Floor of this Parliament, but there is an example at the international level. New Zealand, to combat what was colloquially known as waka-jumping, implemented the Electoral (Integrity) Amendment Act 2018, which sees Members of Parliament who choose to leave their party automatically expelled from Parliament. Some 40 other countries have similar measures in place within their Parliament. So if we were to take this step we would not be alone as a parliamentary democracy, nor, I believe, would we be at odds with our electorate, who would be grateful to have a say in such matters.
The House knows that I truly value independence in this place. It allows each and every one of us to vote with our conscience and in the interests of our constituents and our country. This Bill does not seek to crush independence or enhance political parties, but it does seek to build the trust and transparency in this place and in its Members. It is for that very reason that the Bill is structured so that it cannot be used against Members by party Whips. Only by a Member voluntarily crossing the Floor can the recall petition be set in motion.
As I said, I sincerely hope that this is the last time such a Bill has to face this House. In 2015, many Members from across the House came together to support the noble Lord Goldsmith’s amendment to the Recall of MPs Act 2015, including my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker). This suggested that there would be total recall, with the ability, if 5% of constituents signed a notice calling for it, to trigger a recall petition that would then, in turn, trigger the threshold. I say to him and others who gave their support that if their objections rest with my proposals regarding the threshold, then let the House amend that by raising the threshold.
I have made my case. I have fulfilled my promise to my electorate. I hope that this House might recognise the benefit that this Bill could have and that we can restore the confidence in this, the mother of all Parliaments.
Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)
In rising to oppose my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Anthony Mangnall), I want to begin by absolutely embracing his noble intent and by saying that I am quite confident that if I were the new Member for Totnes or for South Cambridgeshire, or any other seat where Conservative voters are absolutely furious about the behaviour of their previous MP—and rightly so—I would be in their position of needing to move this Bill or a similar one.
I also say to my hon. Friend that I agree about the primacy of the voter. My goodness, why did I do all the things that I have done about leaving the EU? I believe in the primacy of voters, and it is absolutely right that I supported the noble Lord Goldsmith’s Bill—I tweeted out the links earlier. I am in favour of full recall—I prefer to avoid total recall—albeit on a threshold that must be high enough to avoid vexatious political activity. However, I would like to have full recall, by which I mean recall without conditions.
I even agree with my hon. Friend—of course I do—on the importance of party. He is right: none of us was elected to this Parliament as Independents. There are two Independents and they both have their own circumstances. An article by me in The Sun set out, in the course of 2019, the crucial importance of people knowing the programme for which they have voted, so that they get the Government that they wanted— so I agree with him about the importance of party. I am very clear that we owe a duty to our party in fulfilling our duty to our voters. Carswell and Reckless were absolutely right when they went to their electors, but they did so in circumstances slightly different from the ones that I will come to.
But what I really want to ask the whole House to consider is this: we also have a duty to consider in our deliberations what happens not just when things are going right, or perhaps when things are only going slightly wrong in narrow and foreseeable circumstances, but when things go terribly wrong in circumstances that we perhaps have not foreseen? What do we do when things go terribly, terribly wrong?
The problem with my hon. Friend’s Bill is that it establishes the principle that we are here contingent on our membership of party. I know he has said that his proposal would not apply if we lost the Whip for some other reason, but the problem is that in saying so, he has conceded that if we were to be forced to a recall petition and a by-election because we had lost the Whip through our actions, that would be an unacceptable transfer of power to the party Whips and a compromise of our ability to vote as our conscience dictated was best for our constituents and the nation.
I will not quote Burke—we all know Burke. I am going to recommend Auberon Herbert’s “A Politician in Sight of Haven”—a far better essay. This is the circumstance all of us face. We must balance our conception of what is best, our constituents’ and our party’s. That is the problem, and, of course, in conceding that we must not allow Members to be forced to a by-election because the Whips do not like how they voted, in a sense my hon. Friend begins to go down the road that I foresee.
What I want to say to the House is this: imagine a major governing party in the United Kingdom captured by a charismatic and radical leader, buttressed by ruthless and ideological advisers accomplished in the political arts. Imagine that party with the leader and those advisers hell bent on dramatic change to our institutions of the British state—[Hon. Members: “Never!”] Of course—as colleagues say, “Never!”—it is inconceivable that such a thing should happen in the Conservative party, but I want to apologise to Members opposite, because I do now need to trespass on matters that are properly for the Labour party, and in a speech in which I can take no interventions, I wish to do so lightly. I will leave many things unsaid that might strengthen my case to avoid reopening old wounds. Many Members will be able to bring to mind the things to which I refer. Many things happened last year that ought not to have happened.
I count among my friends Gavin Shuker, the former Member for Luton South from 2010 to 2019. He has given me this quote, which I will read in full:
“In effect this would be a huge shift of power—not to our constituents—but to the respective Party Leaderships. Imagine the chilling effect on debate; the incentive for a Member to be bullied out of their own party; we have to ignore our own history to become an advocate of this approach. And not ancient history—recent history. When I chose to sit as an Independent, it was on an issue of integrity; like many of my colleagues I could not advocate putting a man so universally ill-suited to leadership, into 10 Downing Street; unlike many of them, I chose to embrace the consequences. I knew full well that at the next election I would likely not be returned and in the end that’s exactly what happened. The same people who elected me chose not to return me; the system worked—and all without this Bill.
MPs in this House are not delegates”—
I will allow him that—
“we are representatives. The knowledge that, when a party changes beyond all recognition around a Member, that Member may choose to resign the Whip, is an important safety valve in our system; and a good bit of political hygiene.
This proposed legislation is rooted in a popular argument which at first seems very clever. But it’s not very wise.”
Those are the words of my friend Gavin Shuker, who of course was the convenor of the Independent Group for Change.
As I came into the Chamber, I said to one of my colleagues that I was going to make this argument and he replied, “Well, imagine that a Conservative leader became ‘woke’ and decided that to speak of free enterprise as a hate crime; we would need a lifeboat”, and indeed we would. But what I want to say to the House is this: I am afraid that we do need to consider very serious contingencies. If one wished to replace a party of government with another because it had so changed beyond recognition, perhaps because a segment of society genuinely feared for their lives if it came to power—that is what happened—one would have to smash the party with sustained pressure and velocity, with meticulous plans and detailed knowledge of every Member of Parliament and when they would leave their party, what they would say, what they would do and with whom. One would really need to know what they were going to do, and they would need time: they would need, for example, not to be driven to European elections for which they were not ready.
I think all the people who left the Labour party were heroic in what they did. They were seeking to ensure that this country had a fit Opposition and an alternative party of government, and it was necessary for them to have the scope, the space and the freedom to still sit in this House and have this platform in the national interest to try to recreate a viable Opposition.
As it happens, those who chose to stay in the Labour party and rescue it have won. I congratulate them because we do need a good Opposition, but in conclusion I want to say that surely this House is about nothing if it is not about restraining power. Of course my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes makes a good argument, and of course if I was in his situation I might well make the same argument, but if we really want the public to be able to recall us, let us really give them the power, without conditions, on a high threshold—high enough to avoid vexatious political activity, because, goodness knows, after all we have been through, we need political stability.
My goodness, we have seen this Parliament, this place and this constitution not just working at 100% but perhaps, as the rules have been stretched and perhaps broken, we have seen our constitution operating at 110%, and what a dread thing it has been. As somebody who has been subjected to the full wrath of the state at least three times—Members will know which votes I mean—my goodness, I do not want to be the person who leaves their party on principle and then in their constituency faces the might of that state trying to procure signatures on a petition. That is among the reasons for my speaking on this.
I have spoken for long enough, and what a privilege it is to be able to put this on the record, but it is because of the dread power of the state, or the dread power of a party gone wrong, that I say to my hon. Friend and to his voters, “Please bear with us, because what we are saying here is not that you cannot get rid of your MP; all those defectors lost their seats—they all lost their seats. We are not saying you won’t be able to get rid of your MP; we are asking you to be patient, because if we have learned anything over the past year or so it is that this amazing constitution that we have, and this amazing, tiresome, wearisome, awful place that is so brilliant, is capable of protecting our freedoms in this nation.” And to Members of Parliament I say, for all that we are all elected on a party ticket and for all the duties we owe to the public via our party, it remains absolutely essential to the freedom and health of this nation that we are able to walk away from our party and seek to destroy it—although I can tell my Whip that I have no plans to do so.
Question put (Standing Order No. 23)
Private International Law (Implementation of Agreements) Bill [Lords]
Wednesday 2nd September 2020
(3 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Private International Law (Implementation of Agreements) Act 2020 View all Private International Law (Implementation of Agreements) Act 2020 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 115-I Marshalled list for Third Reading - (24 Jun 2020)
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Robert Buckland)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Private international law might sound rather dry and technical—[Laughter.] I get ready assent from the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry)—but at its heart sit the lives of real people and the challenges they face when legal disputes arise in relation to cross-border matters. I am talking about people such as the parents who need to make arrangements in the best interests of their children when a relationship breaks down and one spouse moves abroad, or the small business left out of pocket by a supplier based in another country needing to seek redress in the courts.
Reciprocal private international law rules provide a framework to allow businesses in the United Kingdom, families and individuals to resolve these difficult and challenging situations. They help to avoid confusion for all parties by preventing multiple court cases taking place in different countries on the same subject and potentially reaching different conclusions. Such reciprocal rules also allow for the decisions of UK courts to be recognised and enforced across borders. All this helps to reduce cost and anxiety for the parties involved. It is vital, therefore, that in the future the UK can not only continue to co-operate on private international law matters with existing partners, but implement new agreements into our domestic law that are fit for the 21st century, and this Bill underpins our ambition to deliver real and tangible benefits for our country and our citizens both now and in the years to come.
I would also like to reassure right hon. and hon. Members that whilst private international law can support and underpin cross-border trade, the Bill is not about the implementation of free trade agreements. The terms on which trade between two countries take place are clearly outside the scope of the Bill.
During our membership of the EU, we helped to build, develop and refine an advanced framework of rules on private international law. On 31 January 2020 we marked the first time in more than 20 years that full competence in this area of law returned to the UK. It is important that we acknowledge this new reality and take appropriate steps, and those include ensuring that our statute book is fit for purpose. The Bill achieves this by reimplementing in domestic law three key private international law agreements in which we currently take part so that in future we do not need to rely on retained EU law as the main legal basis for our continued participation.
These three agreements are Hague conventions, adopted under the auspices of the Hague conference on private international law. The UK currently operates them due to our previous membership of the EU, but we will become an independent contracting party to them in our own right at the end of the transition period. Our continued membership of these agreements is widely supported by interested parties in the legal and finance sectors, and indeed by Members in this House and the other place. Clause 1 ensures that these important conventions can continue to operate effectively in the future by stating that they
“shall have the force of law in the United Kingdom”
from the end of the transition period, instead of relying upon retained EU law for their implementation domestically beyond then. This will make their implementation clearer and more straightforward for practitioners, litigants and, indeed, our international partners.
These three conventions cover distinct areas of private international law in the fields of commercial and family law. The 2005 Hague convention increases legal certainty in disputes that relate to cross-border commercial contracts, which include an exclusive choice of court clause. It does this by ensuring that there is no dispute over where a case should be heard and enables any resulting judgment to be recognised and enforced across borders.
These types of choice of court clause are common in high-value commercial contracts, but in family law we are also reimplementing two conventions that cover sensitive and important issues for individuals and families who become engaged in cross-border disputes when a relationship unfortunately breaks down. The 1996 Hague convention improves the protection of children in cross-border disputes and helps families to resolve issues such as residence of and contact with children whose parents live in different countries. Finally, the 2007 Hague convention provides for the recovery of child support and other forms of family maintenance across borders.
The Government made a number of minor and technical amendments in the other place, which received widespread support, to provide a clearer and simpler approach to the implementation of the transitional provisions relating to the 2005 and 2007 conventions. However, the reimplementation of the Hague conventions is only a measure for the status quo. We need to ensure that we are ready for the opportunities that will arise in the future.
I firmly believe that we must now seize that opportunity of regaining full competence in this area by building on our long and proud history in private international law and cementing our role in international forums, such as the Hague Conference, the Council of Europe, the United Nations Commission on International Trade Law and the International Institute for the Unification of Private Law. We have long been a world leader in this field, and we should aspire to remain so. While being justifiably proud of our achievements in this space thus far, to really harness our potential we need a legislative vehicle to be able to implement any new agreements successfully negotiated with our international partners.
John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
This is an extremely good, positive vision. Can my right hon. and learned Friend give one or two examples of the kind of reforms or improvements that he would be looking to make when we exercise our influence?
Robert Buckland
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, who will share my strong belief in the success of the legal services sector both in England and Wales, and in Scotland, as well as in the Northern Ireland jurisdiction, and the importance of maximising the advantage that we have not just in our outstanding rule of law reputation, but our reputation as an international forum for the resolution of disputes. I can think in particular of issues related to arbitration and mediation, where important international conventions are being developed, where the United Kingdom not only needs to be part of it, but to be at the heart of it when it comes to improving not just the prospects for legal services, but the opportunities for the businesses and the citizens we serve.
John Howell (Henley) (Con)
My right hon. and learned Friend mentioned the Council of Europe. I want to stick on that, because it works on the basis of signing international treaties to get things done. At the moment, they take forever to get through, and the UK is one of the worst signers of them. Is this going to help to speed up the process?
Robert Buckland
I share my hon. Friend’s enthusiasm and sense of impatience about the pace of change in fora such as the Council of Europe. I just need to caution him on this basis. When it comes to the use of the powers that we anticipate under this Bill, we are talking about a narrowly defined type of agreement—practical, detailed but important changes that will lead to the sort of improvements that I referred to in responding to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood). I am sure that as he hears not just my contribution but the one made in winding up by the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Alex Chalk), he will be even clearer about the particular role that this Bill will play in the incorporation of international law.
That is very important, because concerns were raised in the other place that somehow this was a Trojan horse or an invitation to open the floodgates, to allow for the incorporation of major swathes of international treaty law into domestic legislation with minimal scrutiny. Nothing could be further from the case.
Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)
Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?
Robert Buckland
I give way to my hon. Friend the Chair of the Justice Committee.
Sir Robert Neill
I know that we will move on to the question of what is not in the Bill and what might be later, but before the Lord Chancellor leaves the issue of improving our access to international legal agreements, he has not yet mentioned our application to accede to the Lugano convention, which many regard as critical, it being markedly superior in a number of respects to those listed on the face of the Bill. There is a concern that the Commission is currently recommending against Britain joining the convention, even though the European Free Trade Association members of that convention support it. What is the position on that? Will he assure us that the Government regard this as one of the highest priorities in our ongoing negotiations? It should not be allowed to be hijacked and held as a hostage to fortune in other negotiations.
Robert Buckland
I can assure my hon. Friend that not only do the Government place a very high premium upon the importance of accession to Lugano, but I personally have vested my own time in direct discussions with counterparts at the Commission and other member states of the EU. In fact, in Zagreb, at the final Justice and Home Affairs Council, I took the opportunity to discuss this at length with several other member states and, indeed, the then newly appointed Commissioner for Justice, and we had a very productive discussion.
My view and that of Her Majesty’s Government is very straightforward: the application for Lugano is a discrete matter. It is separate from the negotiations that are ongoing with regard to a future free trade agreement, and it should be treated as a separate matter. The time for ideology has gone. This is a time for us all to remember that the interests of the citizens that member states serve are paramount, and the interests of ensuring that civil judgments are enforced as swiftly as possible are clear. I call upon all interested parties to put those priorities first, and then hopefully we will see a swifter conclusion to the negotiations, but I welcome the warm support we have had from EFTA countries both prior and subsequent to our application.
Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)
I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for giving way on this Lugano point. I agree with everything he says: it should be treated as a discrete treaty, separate from us leaving the EU, and it is very important for our future trade. But if that is the case, why does he not mention Lugano on the face of the Bill? By doing so, he could perhaps limit the scope of the wide statutory instrument powers—the so-called Henry VIII powers—that I think he will talk about bringing back. He would then have the specific Bill that would make the other place a bit happier.
Robert Buckland
I am always grateful to my hon. Friend, who served with distinction as a Justice Minister, for his long interest in these matters as a member of the profession. I did indeed consider whether this Bill should be a Lugano-specific Bill, but I took the view—and I will explain it in more detail in the body of my remarks—that, because of the narrow ambit of what we are seeking to achieve here, there was a necessary flexibility in allowing the United Kingdom Parliament, by affirmative resolution and therefore by debate on the Floor of the House, to determine whether particular future treaties could be incorporated into domestic law.
I do not regard these as Henry VIII powers. I accept the point that there is a distinction to be drawn in relation to the bringing forward of primary legislation, but as a matter of strict interpretation these are not powers that would allow us unilaterally to amend primary legislation, which, of course, is what a Henry VIII power is. These are powers that will allow us to use secondary legislation, but with the necessary parliamentary scrutiny before the incorporation in domestic law of these treaties. Let’s face it, while we were members of the EU, in large measure, because of the competence of the EU in this area, many of these arrangements and agreements took direct effect in our domestic law without any debate whatever. In my view, this actually represents a qualitative improvement and creates a consistency with that flexibility to allow us to make the sort of advances—I know he shares my view on those—which I referred to in my remarks to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham. I am very grateful not just to him, but to all Members in the other place who gave the Bill detailed and careful consideration. However, we believe that it is constitutionally appropriate and proportionate to deploy delegated powers to implement the type of international agreement envisaged in the Bill.
This delegated power, in my strong view, is narrow, well defined and proportionate. Indeed, private international law itself is still a very narrowly defined area of law. It is familiar in scope and content to courts, legal advisers and experts in the field. The type of international agreement which can be implemented under the delegated power relates primarily to jurisdiction: rules that determine where a dispute is heard, rules that determine which country’s law applies, and rules on the recognition and enforcement of legal decisions or judgments in cross-border cases. No agreement could be implemented that was not related to these specific sorts of issues, which arise in relation to the resolution of cross-border disputes.
On that point, we recognise that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s report on the Bill recommended the removal of the proposed delegated power, but it is our view that that is, respectfully, a misinterpretation of the breadth of the powers sought and the types of international agreements it can cover. Many of the examples given in its report that had previously been implemented by primary legislation are not actually private international law agreements in themselves. Although those agreements contain specific private international law provisions, they are wider in their overall scope and could not have been implemented using the proposed delegated power to be reintroduced into the Bill.
It was also said in the other place that the use of delegated powers to implement private international law agreements would be constitutionally unprecedented. With the greatest respect, I wholly disagree. There are delegated powers to implement new bilateral agreements on recognition and enforcement of civil judgments via Orders in Council under the Administration of Justice Act 1920, the Foreign Judgments (Reciprocal Enforcement) Act 1933, the Maintenance Orders (Facilities for Enforcement) Act 1920 and the Maintenance Orders (Reciprocal Enforcement) Act 1972. Indeed, the powers under the 1933 Act were used as recently as 2003 by the Labour Government to update a bilateral agreement with Israel relating to the recognition and enforcement of judgments, and extending that agreement to cover judgments of the Israeli magistrates courts. However, while it is important to look back at the precedents that exist, it is vital that we look forward, too. The powers contained in those Acts only allow us to implement bilateral agreements in this area. Frankly, the world has moved on significantly since the ’20s and ’30s, because most private international law agreements are now made on a multilateral basis. We need to ensure that the necessary powers exist to implement such agreements in a timely manner.
Parliamentary scrutiny procedures have moved on as well, and our proposals recognise this by requiring statutory instruments made under the delegated power to implement new agreements to be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, which provides much more scrutiny than the Order in Council process. Any decision for our country to join a particular agreement in this area of law would also still be subject to successful completion of parliamentary scrutiny procedures under the provisions of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010—CRAG—which many of us got to know intimately in the context of last year’s machinations on Brexit.
The delegated power in the Bill would not alter the well-established approaches to parliamentary scrutiny of treaties and the process of approving ratification under CRAG. Instead, it would simply be a mechanism to draw down the resulting treaty obligations into domestic law in readiness for the ratification of the treaty. The Government recognise that Parliament has begun to strengthen the scrutiny procedures under CRAG, including, importantly, the establishment of the International Agreements Sub-Committee in April of this year under the chairmanship of Lord Goldsmith. We look forward to working with the Committee, including on the scrutiny of the private international law agreements.
Mr Djanogly
Does my right hon. and learned Friend appreciate that that is the exact same Committee that has constantly been attacking CRAG as totally inadequate and unfit for purpose?
Robert Buckland
Indeed it has made some very trenchant comments about CRAG, and that is precisely why it is important that that Committee does its work on improving and enhancing the procedure. I welcome its work and we will actively engage and ensure that that is so.
The most pressing need for the delegated power is to implement what we hope to see—namely, the Lugano convention, which we have already discussed. As I have said, we still do not know the outcome of our application. It is being considered by the contracting parties to the convention, including the EU. It currently underpins our private international law relationship with Switzerland, Norway and Iceland, but could also be used to underpin our relationship with the EU after the end of the transition period. It would provide valuable certainty on cross-border recognition and the enforcement of civil and commercial judgments, as well as clarity on which country’s courts may hear a dispute.
Sir Robert Neill
I welcome my right hon. and learned Friend’s commitment to joining Lugano. It is important for all the reasons he has set out. There was compelling evidence given to the Justice Committee over a number of years about the importance of this. Also, is it not important that we join so that we can then, as one of the convention parties, seek to influence the development of the convention—for example, to avoid a race to the bottom in jurisdictional terms in dealing with the threat, as it is sometimes called, of the Italian torpedo? We cannot deal with the Italian torpedo until we are in Lugano to sort it out, so is that not all the more reason to reflect on putting this on the face of the Bill? Perhaps nothing would be lost by doing that.
Robert Buckland
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. The Italian torpedo is not a reference to the successful naval action by the Royal Navy against the forces of fascist Italy in the second world war. This is a particular device taken by parties who issue proceedings in a jurisdiction that they know will not accept control over the particular proceedings. It is, in other words, a massive delaying tactic that can cause real obstruction to the course of justice and to the resolution of important disputes, and that is why he is right to say that Lugano would be very much a beginning when it comes to the development and refinement of that type of important co-operation.
My hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) asked why we do not mention Lugano. Well, there is an obvious argument that I should have addressed, which is that, as we have not yet been able to join it, it would perhaps be premature for us to refer to it directly on the face of the Bill, as opposed to the Hague conventions, which we have joined. Regrettably, there will not be time to bring forward further primary legislation before the end of the year, should our application be approved within the next few months. Therefore, for that sad but practical reason, it would be right not to pass anticipatory legislation but rather to await the outcome of the negotiation and then to allow the use of the delegated power.
The power could also be used to implement other agreements. I have talked about mediation, and in particular the 2019 Singapore convention on mediation and 2019 Hague judgments convention. We have not yet taken a formal decision on either of those, but of course I am happy to talk more about those conventions with hon. Members during the passage of this Bill and, indeed, in the future as we decide on our final approach to these instruments.
John Howell
If I catch your eye, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will speak a little more about the Singapore mediation convention, because I think everyone approves of it. All it does is bring mediation settlements under UK law in the same way that arbitration settlements are included within the New York convention. I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend’s offer to speak to people who are involved with this includes me, because I would be very happy to discuss it further.
Robert Buckland
I am grateful to my hon. Friend and he is right to mention the New York convention. Indeed, it develops the point I made to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham about our ambition on the recognition of arbitral decisions and mediation resolutions, too.
The reintroduced delegated power would allow us to strengthen our internal UK and our wider UK family relationships, including those with the Crown dependencies and the overseas territories, by allowing us to apply and to implement the terms of an international agreement between the different jurisdictions of the UK or, indeed, to apply and implement an arrangement or a memorandum of understanding based on the terms of an agreement between a self-governing territory or a dependency and the United Kingdom. Of course, this would be done only with the agreement of the relevant devolved Administration or self-governing territory or dependency, because the Government recognise that private international law, including the implementation of agreements, is indeed fully devolved to Scotland and Northern Ireland, and this will continue to be reflected in any reintroduced delegated power in the Bill.
In summary, this Bill will allow our country to capitalise on regaining full competence to enter into international agreements on private international law in our own right after our withdrawal from the EU. It simplifies the implementation of three important Hague conventions in domestic law, to which the UK will be an independent party from the end of the transition period. The reintroduction of the former delegated power will also allow us quickly to implement any new agreements we strike with our international partners, thereby remaining at the forefront of promoting global co-operation and, indeed, best practice in this area. Finally, it will also allow our citizens to harness the benefits of these agreements in a timely manner, including to assist in the resolution of cross-border disputes. I commend the Bill to the House.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
Labour welcomes the principle of the Bill to maintain and enhance our legal co-operation across jurisdictions and to provide certainty and fairness for those involved in cross-border litigation. In a post-Brexit world, this is essential in attempting to maintain a prosperous economy, protecting our legal system, and providing for families and individual claimants engaged in cross-border disputes. International agreements provide clear and reciprocal mechanisms for dealing with international disputes. In doing so, they are crucial in protecting our country’s proud reputation as the world centre for resolving complex disputes, while offering us a competitive advantage in finance, business and trade.
However, this Bill, and the Chancellor talked about this, will also affect human stories. A wide range of family law issues can lead to cross-border disputes, including when one partner takes a child abroad and there is a disagreement about parenting arrangements—I have had such cases in my own surgeries—as well as when making arrangements for divorce in similar circumstances and, of course, issues relating to abduction and adoption. To keep our citizens safe, we must ensure we have robust international agreements so that justice can be done. Clause 1, which gives effect to international treaties in domestic law through primary legislation, is therefore both necessary and welcome. It is hoped that the provisions affecting the rules on jurisdiction and the recognition and enforcement of judgments overseas will play a crucial role in building a strong economy and provide some certainty for families in often desperately difficult circumstances.
Although we welcome the principle of the Bill as it currently stands, it must be noted that this is largely due to the successful efforts in the other place of my noble and learned Friend Lord Falconer and others to remove clause 2 of the Bill—[Laughter.] I am glad the Lord Chancellor finds that amusing. I will touch on that in due course, but, first, let us come to the specific points of the Bill on which we agree.
Clause 1 gives effect to key international conventions in our domestic law, which is welcomed on the Opposition Benches. The Lord Chancellor spoke of these issues. The 1996 Hague convention on jurisdiction, applicable law, recognition, enforcement and co-operation in respect of parental responsibility and measures for the protection of children is critical to improve the protection of children in cross-border disputes. The 2005 Hague convention on choice of court agreements aims to ensure the efficacy of exclusive choice of court agreements between parties to international commercial transactions. We support this incorporation into domestic law, as such clauses are commonly provided for in high-value commercial disputes.
The 2007 Hague convention on the international recovery of child support and other forms of family maintenance provides for the international recovery of child support and spousal maintenance. It is abundantly clear that this is a positive move, which will help to ensure that parents pay their fair share when providing for their children. We welcome these provisions and hope most certainly that we can offer that certainty in other areas of cross-jurisdictional disputes—I have just managed to tie my tongue in knots.
Labour will not, however, support any attempt by the Government to reintroduce clause 2, which would allow for the future agreements to be implemented via secondary legislation only. As we heard in the other place, this provision would be of profound constitutional significance. Labour is concerned that the reintroduction of clause 2 would represent an extension of the power of the Executive into uncharted territory, amending the convention that international legal agreements that change our domestic law can only be given force by an Act of Parliament.
Robert Buckland
I am listening with great interest to the hon. Gentleman’s speech. Would he care to comment on the involvement of the noble Lord Falconer as a Minister in the passage of the Mental Capacity Act 2005, which did precisely what the hon. Gentleman complains of with regard to the incorporation of important international agreements on mental capacity? I would be very interested in his view.
Alex Cunningham
The Lord Chancellor has an advantage over me; he has expertise in this particular area. I accept that we may have dealt with things quite differently in the past, but it is important that we recognise that this is a matter of international law.
I was rather surprised to hear the Lord Chancellor effectively rubbish the concerns of those in the other place, particularly given their comprehensive arguments. The House of Lords Constitution Committee said that this change would represent a
“significant new power that would change the way this type of international agreement is implemented in UK law and how Parliament scrutinises them.”
The House of Lords Constitution Committee and the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee both considered whether the secondary legislating power should be granted, and both were very clear that it should not. The Constitution Committee stated:
“If the balance between the executive and Parliament is to be altered in respect of international agreements, it should be in favour of greater parliamentary scrutiny and not more executive power.”
As his lordship, Lord Mance—the chair of the Lord Chancellor’s Advisory Committee on Private International Law and perhaps the pre-eminent expert in this area of law—told the other place:
“Opinion is almost universally against Clause 2. The two committees that have reported have categorically condemned it.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 17 June 2020; Vol. 803, c. 2228.]
Lord Pannick, another pre-eminent constitutional lawyer, argued in the debate that there is
“no justification for allowing the law of this country to be changed by statutory instrument in this context without full parliamentary debate. That is because important policy decisions might arise in this context both on whether to implement an international agreement in domestic law and on the manner in which such an agreement is to be implemented.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 17 June 2020; Vol. 803, c. 2224.]
The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee also offered a stern warning about the unprecedented nature of the constitutional change, saying:
“For the first time there will exist a general power to implement international agreements on private international law by statutory instrument, thereby obviating the need for an Act of Parliament. This will be so regardless of the nature or importance of the agreement.”
In its briefing, the Bar Council was also highly critical of this new constitutional grab, stating:
“The Bar Council is…somewhat concerned that the power in section 2”—
that is, clause 2—
“to proceed by delegated legislation is very broad. For instance, it enables the appropriate national authority…to make regulations ‘for the purpose of, or in connection with, implementing any international agreement’”.
The power could extend to matters in our criminal law, such as increasing or, indeed, reducing the penalties for criminal offences.
To give effect to international treaties in domestic law is not a rubber-stamping exercise. The effect, implementation and enforcement of such provisions requires robust parliamentary debate; we must protect the parliamentary scrutiny of such important legal provisions at all costs. The Government have attempted to make arguments as to why the new constitutional measure would be necessary, but all have failed to convince. Their first argument was that the new provision would allow the Government to implement each new international agreement without unnecessary delay, yet there is no evidence to suggest that fast-track legislation is required. In the past, the implementation of international agreements has often taken years, and there is nothing to suggest that implementing them by primary legislation would cause any difficulties beyond the Government’s having to put legislation through normal parliamentary scrutiny.
The Government raised the 2007 Lugano convention, which deals with the jurisdiction and enforcement of judgments between members of the European Union. The Government’s argument appears to be that there may be only a short period during which to legislate to give effect to the Lugano provision at the end of the transition period. Of course, that is not an argument for developing the new executive power more generally. The Government have not considered providing for clause 2 only in relation to Lugano, which might be more amenable—why not? That question has already been posed this afternoon. The Lord Chancellor said that is the main reason that the Government want to have the delegated powers; if that is so, why does he not just put that on the face of the Bill and recognise the issues that have been raised in the other place?
The Government claimed that the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 allows for sufficient parliamentary scrutiny. Once more, that argument does not carry much weight. As a result of clause 2, the Government would be able to give force to model law without being subject to the scrutiny mechanism under the 2010 Act. That Act does not allow for the amendment of treaties or the consideration of measures to implement treaties. It is a red herring and the argument has unravelled when subjected to expert scrutiny.
This is an issue of constitutional propriety for a Government with a reputation for constitutional vandalism. The Conservative peer Lord Garnier stated:
“Unquestionably, the provisions in Clause 2, which gave the Executive the extensive future law-making powers originally in the Bill, have been shown to be constitutionally awkward and unwelcome, by the Constitution Committee, the Delegated Powers Committee and contributors to these debates. When the Bill goes to the other place, I trust that the Government will not use their large majority there to restore the Bill to its original form.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 29 June 2020; Vol. 804, c. 483.]
Unfortunately, we on the Labour Benches fear that that is the very intention of the Government, who on so many occasions have shown themselves to be keen to avoid parliamentary scrutiny.
As Members of Parliament, we have a duty to tread with real care when reforming our constitution, especially when the Executive is empowered and the power of Parliament is undermined. There is no evidence before us as to why the reintroduction of clause 2 would be necessary or right; with that in mind, Labour will support the Bill as it currently stands but wholeheartedly oppose any attempts to reintroduce clause 2 as the Bill progresses through its remaining stages.
Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)
I welcome the approach to the Bill that the Lord Chancellor has adopted and I support the Bill. I support it without hesitation, because it is necessary, but also with a measure of sadness, because I wish it were not necessary. It is a consequence of a decision that was taken that some of us continue to regret and is perhaps an example of the price that is paid in respect of an issue that some thought was technical and dry but that in fact affected people’s everyday lives and the prosperity of the business community of this country but was perhaps not given enough attention in the course of the debates that preceded our decision to leave the EU. Perhaps that caused us not to value enough the system of connections and regulation that we were party to.
The reality is that we are doing our level best—the Lord Chancellor and the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Alex Chalk) are doing precisely that—to put in place the best possible scheme that we can have and that is available to us when, at the end of the year, we leave the most comprehensive set of private international law agreements that exist. We just have to accept that that is the reality, but let us not kid ourselves that we will get any improvement: we will end up with something that is less good than we had and that we are leaving behind—ironically, when the Brussels IIa recast, particularly in its relation to the strengthening of the provisions in relation to jurisdiction-of-choice clauses, is something that Britain has succeeded in having changed and improved specifically to advance and protect the interests of the British-jurisdiction and English-law clauses that greatly advantage the City of London and our broader national financial services sector. I put that on the record as a matter of context and to get it off my chest, but it needs to be said, because it ought to influence the way and the speed with which we now move on this.
I welcome the fact that the Government have picked up, on this and the preceding measures, a number of the Justice Committee’s recommendations on how we might best deal with the situation that we find ourselves in. For example, bringing the Rome regulations on family and other matters, which did not require reciprocity, into domestic law, and implementing the Hague convention, as set out on the face of the Bill, are desirable. The ambition to join Lugano is, for reasons that we have already debated, very important. The Hague conventions are worthwhile but are not as good as what we had before, so moving to Lugano, which would be an improvement, would be a step forward.
I hope, too, that we swiftly deal with the other two conventions referred to in the helpful letter that the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham, sent to all Members of Parliament: the 2019 Singapore convention and the future Hague convention agreements. There has been some debate in the other place, particularly from Lord Mance, about which order they shall come in. On balance, I am persuaded by the evidence that we have heard over the years and the arguments made by the Law Society of England and Wales—I think the Law Society of Scotland finds itself in the same place—that the more important thing is not to have any gap in the recognition and enforcement of judgments and recognition of international public clauses. That is why the Law Society favours pressing ahead with entry to Lugano as soon as we can, rather than waiting for what may develop with the Hague arrangements. The Government are right not to delay in that regard; we must press ahead.
That is, of course, the means by which we should deal with the Italian torpedo. I mention it not because this is like when we were doing trials in long, boring fraud cases, and there was sometimes a bit of a side bet to make an unlikely comment in one’s closing speech to the jury. The truth is, as we all know, that the Italian torpedo—the delaying tactic of seeking to thwart an exclusive jurisdiction clause, very often operating in favour of the UK, by commencing unmeritorious and almost abusive proceedings in another jurisdiction, which would then hold up the process—has caused a problem in commercial matters and real hardship in many family law cases. Getting the family law issues right is particularly important. The Government’s objective of ensuring that, for example, the partner of a finished relationship is able to enforce her maintenance payments from the other partner, who may be in one of the EU or other contracting states, is critical for ordinary individuals—not just businesses. Having in place a means of protecting the English and Scots law jurisdiction clauses, which are very important for financial services contracts, is critical too.
It is perhaps not the time to go into this in detail, but when we get to Committee, may I ask Ministers to reflect on the matter of asymmetrical jurisdiction, which was raised by Lord Mance, who has massive experience in this field? I tend to agree with him on that, whereas I am not persuaded about the sequencing of Lugano and Hague. He referred to it in some detail in his speech in the Lords. I will not repeat what he said, as he is much more experienced than me, the Lord Chancellor and the Under-Secretary of State, who did not have the fortune—literally or otherwise—to practise in that field. Lord Mance’s wise words are important, because this issue relates to derivative swaps and other financial instruments, which, for reasons that he set out well, are of particular importance to the UK financial services sector. As things stand at the moment, the provisions in the Bill do not sufficiently address that.
That is a technical but important matter for our business interests that we ought perhaps to reflect on as the Bill makes progress in Committee.
The other thing I want to say at this stage is that while I know the Lord Chancellor wishes to be ambitious in scope, I am not saying that this is necessarily a Henry VIII power or that all wide-ranging powers to amend by delegation are always wrong. Lord Garnier, who has been referred to as a mutual friend of all those on this side of the House and elsewhere, put it rather well when he said—I paraphrase him—that essentially all parties when in opposition oppose clauses of this type, but all parties when in government make use of them. He said that he had done so himself, and I did so myself when I was a Minister. Those on the Treasury Bench have done so at various times, so it is not a question of haloes in that regard—
Alex Cunningham
But on this occasion, Lord Garnier was actually in support of the Opposition’s position.
Sir Robert Neill
He was indeed, and if the hon. Gentleman allows me to develop it, I will suggest a nuanced way around this. It is not to say that we should not have delegated powers, but that we should perhaps look again at the way in which they are cast. I do not think it would necessarily be needed to bring back clause 2, as it was before it was removed by the other House—and I understand Lord Chancellor’s point about not bringing in pre-emptive legislation—but there was some merit and a genuine concern to assist in the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) about putting the power on the face of the Bill with a provision to exercise it at such time as the application was approved. That might remove the sting from it.
I know that the Under-Secretary has examples of instances when delegated legislation is used to create criminal offences. Those of us who have much more experience in that field, as the Lord Chancellor and others have, know it happens. It is not an objection in principle, but it might be possible to redraw the provisions more tightly to make sure that that is not unduly widened. Perhaps there are things that can be done to speed up the process without bringing ourselves into what might be quite a significant conflict given the size of the majority by which clause 2 was rejected in the other place; I think it was 320 to 233, so it was not a marginal matter. I hope, therefore, if we are to ensure the swift passage of the Bill, which is the one thing that we absolutely must have for the sake of avoiding a lacuna on 31 December this year, perhaps some imagination can be given to how that potential difficulty with the other place might be overcome.
I hope that we will be able to proceed with the Bill swiftly. We do not perhaps always give sufficient value and attention to these matters. The status of our civil law and the status of private international law are not talked about enough—
John Redwood
I wonder whether my hon. Friend will address my query to all the expert lawyers in the House about what Britain could now do by way of leadership to improve a big area like family law through these mechanisms. Does he have any ideas for Ministers?
Sir Robert Neill
The first one is one that we have been talking about, which is early joining of Lugano, and being active in the international law field. I think we can do that and, in particular, one area in family law has been a concern, which was expressed by the Family Law Bar Association in evidence to the Select Committee some time ago. It is that the current arrangements in The Hague convention can tend—as the evidence of Philip Marshall, QC, the then chairman, suggested—to militate against mediation in family law cases. Active participation in that could be a very constructive way forward.
I am keen that we get on with this. As I know, and my hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell) will talk about this more, Britain has a world-leading sector in mediation and arbitration, and that is something that we should also develop. In terms of commercial cases, it is of great value to the country, but it is also of real human value when it can be applied in mediation cases. Despite my regret about the necessity for the Bill, it is well put forward by the Lord Chancellor and I take on board his points. I hope that we will be able to resolve any outstanding issues between this House and the other place as to the best way forward to get the practical objectives that we all share across the House on the statute book as soon as possible.
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to follow the Chair of the Justice Committee. I found much with which to agree in what he said and I share his regret that the Bill is necessary.
I start, however, by recognising that the Bill is necessary as a result of the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union, and I wish to make it clear that the Scottish National party supports the swift implementation of the 1996, 2005 and 2007 Hague conventions, because that will allow vital family law co-operation measures to continue after the transition period. My party is all for close and co-operative judicial relationships and we hope that, despite some worrying signs to the contrary, the United Kingdom will work with the European Union to ensure such relationships during and beyond the transition period.
However, my party’s support for the Bill does not change the fact that the Scottish National party, along with the majority of people living in Scotland, deeply regrets the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union on 31 January 2020. That happened without the consent of the people of Scotland and against the explicit wishes of our Parliament. In the EU referendum, which seems an awfully long time ago now, Scotland voted by a significant majority to remain in the European Union, and majority support for EU membership remains constant in opinion polls in Scotland. Indeed, at every electoral opportunity since the 2016 referendum, voters in Scotland have given my party and the other pro-EU parties a resounding majority. I know these facts may be unpalatable to some on the Government Benches but they are facts, and ignoring these facts—ignoring the repeatedly expressed democratic wishes of people in Scotland—has consequences. These consequences are plain to be seen in the fact that, even in the absence of a campaign, support for Scottish independence has reached 55% in the opinion polls during the current crisis. Brexit is widely recognised as a significant factor in the rise of that support, which is now at unprecedented levels.
The Government and those on their Back Benches would do well to listen to wise voices, such as that of the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell), who last night told “Newsnight” that
“Brexit has made the case for the Union more difficult to push in Scotland”
and that it would be
“very difficult to resist”
a second independence referendum.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. I understand the point that the hon. and learned Lady is making, but is there any chance that she could now get to the Bill in front of us?
Joanna Cherry
I was about to do so, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I think it is important for the record that we restate the view, and make it crystal clear—as my constituents, and those who elected my fellow SNP Members, would wish us to do—that we are agreeing to the Bill only because we see it as inevitable to protect constituents and businesses in Scotland; but that we do not agree to the fact of Brexit, and that that has consequences, which I am sure are relevant to all discussions in this Parliament going forward—at least from the point of view of Scottish Members of Parliament.
Returning to the specific terms of the Bill, we accept the need to make preparations for the circumstances that will arise as a result of the end of the transition period. As others have said, although international private law is rather dry—as a student, I regarded it with dread—nevertheless it is really important to our constituents, and particularly important in the field of family law, but also really important for commerce and business.
As an aside, I was pleased to see that during the Bill’s passage through the Lords, the UK Government registered their intent to ratify and implement the 2000 Hague convention on the international protection of adults. That has already been done in Scotland, but I am pleased to see that it will now happen in England and Wales, and that there will be an appropriate consultation with the Northern Ireland Executive.
Although the Bill’s introduction has been triggered by the UK leaving the EU, there are aspects of it that go beyond Brexit. I think the Bill—certainly clause 2—was very much about the future strategy for international relations in the area of private international law, about which the Lord Chancellor spoke. I very much hope that for so long as Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom and, indeed, afterwards, when it becomes an independent nation, the strategy of the Government will be based on a commitment to international co-operation on private international law, including multinational agreements, and not just limited to the European Union. As others have said, these agreements are important because they allow and support the legal services sector in the United Kingdom, including in the separate jurisdiction of Scotland, to participate in private international law developments internationally. The commitment to international co-operation on international private law is in line with my party’s policy. We would like to see more international co-operation, not less, and that is certainly the strategy that an independent Scotland will pursue in the years to come.
I welcome the fact that this Bill was drafted to recognise that Scotland is a separate legal jurisdiction and to make provision accordingly. The Lord Chancellor knows that, in another area, I have had occasion to write to him recently to remind him of the fact that the Scottish system of civil justice is indeed completely independent from that of England. That is not just because of devolution, which, of course, is a fairly modern event. It is important to understand that the civil justice system under the Scotland Act 1998 is the preserve of the Scottish Parliament, but that separateness is also guaranteed by the Treaty of Union—in particular by article 19 of the Treaty of Union.
Although I am afraid, as the Lord Chancellor knows, that in the field of judicial review there may be a threat of an excursion into Scottish territory, I am very pleased to see that, in this Bill, that is not the case. None the less, it is worth reminding ourselves that it has often been said that some parts of the Treaty of Union, such as the preservation of Scotland’s Church and also Scotland’s legal system, are so fundamental that this Parliament does not have the power to legislate in contravention of them. I am aware that that point has never been definitively tested in a court of law, but were there to be an excursion into Scots law in the field of judicial review, that might be the opportunity to test that question, and I think the outcome of any such litigation could have interesting knock-on effects. However, as I say, it is not a bridge that we need to cross in relation to this Bill. I see the Lord Chancellor shaking his head with something approaching belief and I am sure that he will be aware that any interference in Scotland’s independent legal system would be met with some resistance, not just from adherence to the cause of Scottish independence, but from the Scottish legal profession. The two things are not always the same thing, although they are increasingly becoming the same thing.
I do not mean to jest here because I am grateful to the Government for having drafted this Bill in a way that recognises that, under section 126(4)(a) of the Scotland Act, private international law is part of Scots private law and that includes matters such as choice of law that this Bill covers, choice of jurisdiction, recognition of judgments and enforcement of decisions. There is also the convention under section 28(8) of the Scotland Act—the Sewel convention—that this Parliament would normally legislate with regard to matters that are within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament without the consent of the Scottish Parliament. I know that that has been breached on a number of occasions recently, but thankfully not in a relation to this Bill. Under the original clause 2 of this Bill, Scottish Ministers were given certain powers in relation to delegated legislation because, whereas negotiating and joining international agreements on private international law is reserved, implementing them in domestic law is devolved. As the Lord Chancellor will be aware, the Scottish Government have considered carefully the provisions of the Bill as originally laid insofar as they legislated for Scotland and legislative consent was sought from the Scottish Parliament and granted on 17 June. That was very much because the view was taken that, because the provisions of the Bill cover Scotland as a separate jurisdiction, Scotland would be placed in a prejudicial position if allowance was not made, and that would adversely impact on Scottish citizens and businesses. I think it is fair to say that my colleagues in the Scottish Government wanted to provide reassurance to those affected by cross-border family support and custody mechanisms, as other Members have adverted to.
Finally, I come to the removal of clause 2 in the other place. I appreciate that if clause 2 is not reinserted into the Bill, it will mean that for each private international law agreement the UK enters into in future, primary legislation will be required to implement it domestically. A lack of clause 2 would not mean that the UK did not have the ability to enter into these agreements, but it would mean that they would have to be brought before this House and implemented into law by way of primary legislation. I note that the Lord Chancellor intends to reinstate clause 2, but I say to him, having read the debate in the Lords, that legitimate concerns about parliamentary scrutiny, or the lack thereof, in relation to delegated legislation were raised.
Let me pick up on what other hon. Members have said. If it is the case, as it appears to me, that the Government’s clear policy is to rejoin the Lugano convention—obviously, we would need to do that quickly—I suggest to the Lord Chancellor, and I am indebted to the Law Society of Scotland for this suggestion, that one way around this would be to reintroduce clause 2 on the basis that it focuses only on the implementation of the Lugano convention. I believe that was suggested by the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly). If the Government are insistent on bringing it back on a general basis, might I suggest attaching a sunset clause to it, perhaps for a year or so?
More broadly, the Government need to establish a clear and comprehensive approach to ratifying treatments, one that includes an appropriate role for this Parliament in providing scrutiny, because when the transition period ends, the UK will negotiate and sign treaties on a much larger scale than when we were members of the EU. Although the negotiating and signing of treaties is a function of government, exercised through prerogative powers, the increasing complexity of modern treaty obligations and the way they affect individual rights creates a need to ensure that they are adequately scrutinised here. As others have mentioned, it is particularly important that that happens when criminal offences are being created, or indeed amended or extended, because that has particular implications for individual rights. Let me finish by saying that if the Government do not find a way to enhance parliamentary scrutiny of these matters, the promise that leaving the EU meant taking back control will be made a mockery of.
Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)
The Bill, as presented from the other place, is not in the least objectionable. As has been pointed out, the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 automatically inserts directly effective treaty rights into domestic law after the end of the transition period. However, clause 1 takes a number of treaties that we all consider to be valuable and directly puts them into our own laws as though they were non-EU-signatory treaties. I agree that not only is that more transparent, but it makes a clear statement on our new post-Brexit position to the international community. So far, so good. The problem comes when we then get to discuss what Government powers should be in relation to the private international law issues that we do not currently know anything about.
Looking at this Bill, the dilemma I have, when including the Government’s stated intention to reinsert clause 2, is that we have an Administration keen to take back control when it comes to the EU, but there seems to be less of an issue with passing laws that facilitate the Executive handing out control and sovereignty to non-EU foreign powers with minimal parliamentary scrutiny. Building on one point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill), let me say that one confusing thing I find when looking through the Bill is working out which aspects of private international law we benefit from now through our former membership of the EU that we would wish ideally to retain. That is relevant because we still do much of our business with EU countries. We still have the most UK-owned foreign homes in France and Spain, and I would hazard a guess that UK citizens marry and have children with more European Union citizens than other foreigners.
The treaties set out in clause 1 are very limited—the protection of children, the exclusive choice of court agreements and family maintenance. They do not deal with insolvency, business law and many other key issues dealt with under European law. Could the Minister point me to some document that shows what is covered with the EU now and will be rolled over into our law, or to what extent those items feature in current EU deal negotiations? That would be helpful.
As the Lord Chancellor said, the issue with this Bill is not what is in it now, but rather what has been taken out by the other place—namely, the former clause 2 delegated powers provision. I note that no attempt was made in the other place to upset the royal prerogative and demand that PIL treaties are approved by Parliament before signature, although the weakness of the CRAG pre-ratification review process was well covered as being limited and flawed.
On looking at the debates on this Bill in the Lords, the key difference between the Government and almost everyone else who spoke was the Government’s contention that these proposed Henry VIII powers—that is what I think they are—were not a constitutional breach, as they had already been used for other laws. We heard the Lord Chancellor repeat that today. Lord Keen referred to the Mental Capacity Act 2005, which came up in an earlier intervention, but it was pointed out that that Act was the primary legislation that gave effect to an international convention, and as such, it was not the best example that the Minister might give.
It seems to me that we need to consider the Government’s suggestion that PIL is a narrow enough genre to merit its own delegated powers. That is a hard case to make, and it has not yet been made by the Government. To answer the point validly made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood), the processes, for instance, to enforce private contracts, international financial bonds or insolvency procedures are difficult to lump into the same basket as, say, child protection or mental health, which is what the proposal in clause 2 does.
The Government have repeatedly said that clause 2 is necessary to move ahead with the Lugano treaty, yet their wording referred to “any international agreement”, which could stretch to much more than the Lugano treaty. Furthermore, the proposed powers last without a sunset clause, so they could presumably be used in the future for not only the implementation of now unknown treaties but any changes to those unknown treaties, no matter how significant.
Other issues arise. I am concerned, for instance, about the extension of Executive power to use statutory instruments to change domestic law to give effect to model laws. I am concerned at such powers being used to make new criminal offences by order. A more general observation would be on the timing of the process. In recent weeks, Ministers have been arguing for Bills to be heard in an afternoon because of the covid emergency. International treaties, however, work on the slowest and most planned of timescales, so to say that these issues are time-constrained is not realistic. Likewise, to accuse these PIL subject areas of being only technical is unrelated to how very important they tend to be to the lives of people who actually need them. Furthermore, given how the world becomes an ever smaller place, I foresee these cross-border jurisdictional issues becoming more, not less, relevant and important, particularly with our being out of the European Union.
For all those reasons, my instinct suggests that the Government should accept the position presented to them by the Lords and simply move on. At the least, we could tie the powers to named foreseeable treaties in the Bill such as Lugano. However, if the Government are dead set on their current course, I suggest that they need to improve their offer to Parliament, and four areas comes to mind. First, they should limit the order-making powers to a period of, say, two years after each relevant treaty has been signed. Secondly, a Joint Committee should be formed to review the orders. Thirdly, a Government report should be issued to Parliament setting out the proposal, and fourthly, the report should be issued a minimum period of, say, 21 sitting days before the relevant SI Committee sits.
As things stand, the Government’s proposed reinsertion of clause 2 must represent one of the largest potential power grabs ever seen by the Executive in this Parliament. The Government should think again.
John Howell (Henley) (Con)
I first declare an interest as an associate of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators.
I welcome this Bill and the proposals to change it during its next stages. As I said during an intervention, I want to mention one thing in particular—the Singapore mediation convention. This is a treaty that we have been waiting to sign since it was first talked about in 2018. It is absolutely unconscionable that it has not been signed, ratified and brought into UK law in a much shorter period. This goes to the heart of the question asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood)—what do we need to do to keep ourselves ahead of the game in this? I went to Singapore and talked to the mediation community there. We are being left out. The centre of mediation is here in London. It is being left out because there is no means of making sure that the mediated conclusion to a dispute can be brought into law in another country. In fact, the process that one has to go through is a fairly arbitrary one where, after the mediation, one has to get new proponents as arbitrators, which increases the cost enormously, to have a formal arbitration that can be caught under the New York convention. That is an utterly absurd way to go about this.
We all know that mediation has become an important part of modern business, especially as the courts are busy. When I was doing my Industry and Parliament Trust fellowship in law and sitting with judges, I was very pleased that many of them advised the people who were pleading before them that they should go away and consider mediation beforehand. Getting a mediation settlement agreed and applicable across countries seems to be a very narrow and technical thing to do. It does not affect anyone in an adverse way, and it has been welcomed by almost everybody I have spoken to.
I hope that the Minister will be able to confirm that this Bill will allow us to steam ahead in getting the Singapore mediation convention ratified and brought into UK law so that, for the future, we can maintain our position in the UK as the centre of mediation in the world.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
It is a pleasure to make some brief comments in this debate. The Lord Chancellor is no longer here, but I thank him for setting the scene so well for us all to follow. As we are all aware, the Library has made things clear in the notes on the Bill. I want to start with the words of the Bar Council:
“Private international law is at once both a highly technical field and one that is extremely important in regulating the lives of individuals and businesses when they cross borders. Never has there been a greater need to consult specialists in this field and to ensure rigorous scrutiny to produce a cogent and coherent strategy in this field. Time is short to ensure that United Kingdom private international law is left in a clear and satisfactory state upon exit day.”
That sets the scene for where we are and the importance of what we are trying to achieve.
The Bill as introduced into the House of Commons contains only one substantive clause that would give domestic effect to three international agreements covering aspects of private international law—the Hague conventions of 1996, 2005 and 2007. These provide a framework for determining jurisdiction and enforcement in international disputes covering child custody and maintenance, and civil and commercial matters. The United Kingdom currently participates in these arrangements as a result of our former membership of the EU, as well as the EU-wide measures covering co-operation on cross-border legal issues.
My interest in these matters comes purely from my constituency work load. Over the years, as a Member of Parliament since 2010 and as a Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly prior to that, constituents have come to me with such issues, and most of those were to do with the custody of children or divorce, but sometimes there were insolvency or commercial matters. However, the real issue was family law, so I am encouraged by what the Lord Chancellor said in relation to that, because there is a necessity to provide certainty and protection to children and families in what is often the very fractious and difficult environment of family disputes. Some cases and disputes that I have been involved in over the years as an elected representative—not as a legal matter; I am not legally qualified and I am always conscious of saying that—can be made additionally complicated by the cross-border element.
I have also been involved in issues when there have been accidents in other jurisdictions, where there were claims to be made and where accountability was part of that process, and that again comes under international law. On one or two occasions, someone has bought a product in another country and wants the right of recourse because it was defective. The hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) referred to one of the greater issues in the last few years—the purchase of houses and villas. I suppose my introduction to this was on behalf of constituents who then had difficulties with the purchase of those properties, and with land disputes. These are key issues for some of my constituents. There were not just problems with the law—sometimes the problems were with the interpretation of the law and, ultimately, with the language difficulties that arose.
We have found, in most cases, that the successful Brexit vote has determined that we must have arrangements in place that will include the continuation of our ability to govern cross-border legal disputes. I believe that that is essential—as the Lord Chancellor said earlier—for Northern Ireland and our border with the EU member, the Republic of Ireland. We want, need and desire a good working relationship with the Republic of Ireland and, if possible, with the EU. Many international companies operate in Northern Ireland, such as Bombardier in my constituency, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) referred in a question to the Prime Minister today, as well as insurance firms. These are among many others in Northern Ireland who need confidence and the assurance that, in the post-transition period, they will continue to be offered the same protections that EU firms enjoy. It is very important for firms in my constituency to have that same protection and to know that that will happen because of the Bill we have before us.
In a briefing for the peers, the Bar Council welcomed clause 1 of the Bill, suggesting that although it might not be necessary, it would be helpful in making things clearer in primary legislation. I am pleased to see that this has been retained. The Lord Chancellor also stated that for the Scottish Parliament, which the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) spoke about, and the Northern Ireland Assembly, matters will be devolved. Will the Minister say in his conclusion—it would be good to have this on record—whether there will be occasions when Westminster, or the House of Commons, will and can overrule what may happen at the Northern Ireland Assembly or the Scottish Parliament? I just want to have that on record, if possible.
The Bar Council also referred to the fact that it might be necessary to consult specialists in the field. The specialists that we have in the Northern Ireland Assembly and Northern Ireland will guide us and give advice, so it is always good to know whether there are occasions when we may find ourselves, not in conflict with the House of Commons in any way but with a difference of opinion legally.
In conclusion, I would also like the Minister, in summing up, to underline that the consultation process with those who work daily with the remit of this legal principle has cast the net wide—I am sure it probably has, but I ask him please to confirm it. Will he also confirm that he understands the necessary protections needed to ensure that on the day that our chains to Europe are finally broken—boy, do I look forward to that day—we have the continuity of domestic protection with effect to the three international agreements governing aspects of private international law, The Hague conventions of 1996, 2005 and 2007?
Shaun Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Con)
I promise that I will try to keep my comments as brief as possible. It is a bit of an intimidating experience to follow such distinguished lawyers, particularly as I was only sitting my legal practice course finals some two years ago, so to be here debating with the Lord Chancellor on private international law is an interesting one.
A really important point was raised at the start of the debate, which was about making the Bill applicable to real life. To reiterate that point, which was articulated particularly well, I must say, by the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry), this affects real people’s lives. This is about how businesses operate and how some of the most vulnerable children and young people in our society are protected. I think about the exporters in my region of the west midlands who account for a quarter of a million jobs. The export value of the goods sent out from the black country was something like £3.81 billion in 2018-19. The Bill is really important, because it relates to people’s livelihoods. It is absolutely vital that we get it right.
On the protections for young people who need financial support from absent parents, I have 3,000 lone parents in my constituency who rely on support for their children. Looking at my caseload, I would say that many of them do not get that support. We spend time having to fight very complex battles to receive very complex levels of support, so we must relate this to the situation on the ground. I think of businesses in my constituency, such as KTC Edibles in Wednesbury, which rely on these provisions to do their day-to-day business. It is as simple as that: they rely on private international law to ensure they can trade and can keep their employees in a job.
Turning more widely to the provisions in the Bill, I want to touch on the clause 2 that was removed by the other place. We have heard articulate arguments about that today. In my preparation for this debate, I read the comments in the other place. To an extent, I have sympathy with what was said on the possibility of utilising the delegated powers as some sort of Executive power grab. What I would say—I think this was articulated by my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor—is that the preceding system was one of direct effect, so in a way it took those powers away from this place in the first place. Having said that, however, equally we cannot just remove the role of this place entirely. We cannot allow that to happen. I am somewhat reassured that, through the affirmative procedure, there is a degree of scrutiny. I appreciate that for some Members it is not the desired level of scrutiny, but I have been very impressed by my hon. Friend the Minister’s openness in taking forward suggestions on how it could perhaps be improved on.
Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)
Apart from diluting the number of lawyers here for my hon. Friend’s comfort—
Mr Davis
I am the client of the House today.
The hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) made the very important point that these prospective pieces of legislation, only under secondary legislation, could actually create criminal offences and therefore impinge directly on the rights of our citizens. They could, when I think about it, even put the rights of those citizens under foreign laws, as has happened with the European arrest warrant and other such measures. Does my hon. Friend think that that specific test of whether it creates a criminal offence that might impinge on our citizens might require rather more than simply secondary affirmative legislation?
Shaun Bailey
I thank my right hon. Friend for his intervention. He raises a really important point very eloquently, which I would need to explore. I do not want to give him a definitive answer right now, because I would need to explore it further. If I were to do that I would want to formulate my opinion based on the fullest research, but he makes a really important point that is certainly one to take forward and one that I have listened to with great interest in this debate, which has sort of formed my opinion.
Moving forward with this, and conscious of the fact that I want to keep my remarks as brief as possible, I would say that my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill) made an important point, which was supported by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood): we have got to ensure that, as we move forward now, this country is at the forefront of improving private international law. We cannot just pass this legislation and think, “Right, okay, there we go. We are an observer, or we are just partaking.” We have to be a leader on this, because when that campaign was happening four years ago and people made that decision, whatever people’s views on that, one premise of the campaign was that we would once again be a leader in the world. To do that, we have to ensure that we take a proactive and positive approach.
I am heartened to see that there has been respect for the devolved Administrations, particularly for Scots law. We need to respect the unique legal structures and legal framework in Scotland. I am pleased to see that in the Bill.
To round up my comments, I would say that this is a Bill that, on the face of it, has broad support from all sides. There are some interesting debates still to be had as it proceeds on its passage and I am heartened by the way those on the Treasury Bench have been open to discussions and to listening. We might think this measure is technical and convoluted—the joy of legal debates among lawyers in the Tea Room—but it is people’s lives. This is every day. This is about keeping people in jobs. This is about ensuring that the most vulnerable in our society remain protected. I commend the Bill to the House.
Alex Cunningham
With the leave of the House, I will sum up on behalf of the Opposition.
When I was preparing my closing remarks, I thought I was following the hon. Member for Darlington (Peter Gibson) and I was going to remind him that he has the privilege to represent what was my home town for a large part of my life. He also has the privilege of following in the footsteps of great MPs such as Ted Fletcher, who was himself an internationalist and would have been interested in today’s proceedings. He was a person who believed very much in action rather than words, and he put his life in the line of fire when he fought in the trenches in Spain against the fascists in the civil war. I am pleased to have this opportunity to pay tribute to Ted, the first MP I was honoured to knock doors for. He inspired me and I would never have been here if it had not been for him.
As I said in my opening speech, Labour recognises the importance of private international law, particularly in a post-Brexit setting. Without the framework that private international law provides, UK businesses, families and individuals would face greater difficulty in seeking to resolve conflicts arising from cross-border disputes. As we get closer to the new year and the great and growing uncertainty posed by Brexit, the need for a clear and fair framework to settle cross-border disputes becomes ever more urgent. Without this framework, businesses and individuals would face great uncertainty. That is why Labour fully supports clause 1, which gives effect in domestic law to three important international agreements to improve the protection of children involved in cross-border disputes, regulate court arrangements relating to high-value international transactions, and allow for the recovery of child support and spousal maintenance.
Not only will each of those three agreements make a significant and positive change to domestic law; they will be incorporated in domestic law in the proper way, by primary legislation debated before the House. That is why we support them. This is the exact opposite of what the original clause 2 sought to do, and it is regrettable that the Government seek to bring it back in Committee. The Lord Chancellor would be wise to take the counsel of the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) and the Chair of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill). They have outlined specific issues, and if the Government were to concentrate on those areas, they might find themselves with a little more support for their proposals. Also, the Government should do that because it would recognise the concerns of those in the other place. I hope that when the Minister winds up in a few minutes he addresses that good advice given by Members on his own side, because we know that clause 2 represents a very concerning extension of Executive power in any other circumstances, allowing the Government to bypass parliamentary scrutiny and implement private international law agreements by the back door by utilising statutory instruments. That would represent a dangerous break with past parliamentary practice, which so far requires all public international law treaties to be implemented by Act of Parliament. Instead, it would represent a permanent shift of power from Parliament to the Executive, with little reasoning provided for why such a shift is needed. Sadly, it appears that this shift is very much the approach of this Government and it must be challenged. That is why the Bill was amended in the other place. As we have heard, distinguished lawyers and constitutional experts across the political divide voted against the inclusion of this clause because it so offends the constitutional principle of parliamentary sovereignty that requires proper scrutiny of international agreements before they have effect in domestic law.
When the Government were asked to explain the need for the powers contained in clause 2 they provided three basic arguments. I spoke of them in my opening speech, so suffice it to say now that not one of those arguments held under expert scrutiny in the other place.
It is not only those of us on the Labour Benches who have been far from convinced by the case put forward by the Government for the need for clause 2. As we have heard, when the Constitution Committee considered whether this legislative power should be granted, it made it clear it should not. The Committee went on to say:
“It is inappropriate for a whole category of international agreements to be made purely by delegated legislation”.
It went on to say that that is not only because it reduces parliamentary scrutiny but because
“Such an approach risks undermining legal certainty.”
Why would the Government seek to reintroduce clause 2 at a later stage in the Bill’s passage if each of the arguments for its inclusion have been shown to be false? The Government currently have a perfectly reasonable and necessary Bill, which I imagine would receive wide cross-party support; we have seen examples of that this afternoon.
In conclusion, as we leave what is arguably the world’s most comprehensive network of private international law agreements in the new year, it is vital that we have a framework in place that fills that void. Labour recognises that, and it is our collective responsibility to defend parliamentary scrutiny, irrespective of procedural ease or expediency. For that reason, we will support this Bill in its current form but will reject any attempts to reintroduce clause 2 or any other clause that allows for the implementation of international agreements in domestic law by secondary legislation.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Alex Chalk)
I want to begin by expressing my gratitude to all Members who have contributed to the debate, with speeches of conspicuous clarity of thought. It is clear that across the House there is proper concern about the balance that exists between the powers of the Executive and the powers of the legislature. I will return to that, because it is absolutely right that those important points are engaged with fully. But first let me make some brief introductory remarks, setting the stage for why this matters and why, indeed, the Government are taking the approach we are.
As others have indicated, the Bill might at first glance appear somewhat dry and academic, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Shaun Bailey) noted, it is of great practical importance for the lives and livelihoods of individuals and businesses in all our constituencies. It is also important—this point should not be lost—for the international rules-based order, which we can and must consolidate and strengthen in the months and years ahead. My hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell) made the excellent point about the urgency of a mediation agreement, but in summary this Bill provides a legal framework for resolving cross-border disputes, and that framework provides legal certainty about jurisdiction, recognition and enforcement for both businesses and individuals whose legal affairs cross borders.
As has been noted, it benefits individuals where, for example, the relationship with the former partner has broken down but both parties need to resolve the child contact arrangements where one parent lives overseas. Such cases have arisen in my constituency surgery in Cheltenham. They are very painful cases, and are more painful still without these rules in place. It benefits businesses, too, for example where suppliers are abroad and the parties want to know that the agreement to litigate any dispute in a particular country will be honoured and upheld internationally, and it matters that when our jurisdiction is chosen by the parties in a commercial agreement other courts and states will recognise and enforce that jurisdiction. That is really what matters.
How does this Bill achieve that? In essence, in two ways: first, it carries over international treaties that we were parties to by dint of our membership of the EU; and secondly—this is the point that has attracted the most attention in this debate—it creates a mechanism for us to participate in future agreements and, in doing so, to strengthen the international rules-based order for the benefit of all our citizens. I just want to underscore that point. There is a countervailing public interest in our being able to do that in a timely and efficient way, because the longer that we delay in implementing these arrangements, the longer the delay in strengthening the international rules-based order.
It is important to be clear what the Bill is not about. The Lord Chancellor did that before me, but it is right that I underscore it. It is not about trade agreements. Private international law agreements remain distinct from free trade agreements both in content and scope. As hon. Members well understand, FTAs are agreed between countries, and they remove or reduce tariffs and other restrictions on most goods traded between them to allow easier market access. FTAs rarely, if ever, contain specific private international law provisions.
Promoting international recognition of jurisdiction and enforcement is important because the UK is the chosen court centre for so much of the world’s litigation: 40% of all global corporate arbitrations used English law in 2018, 75% of cases in the UK commercial court in the same year were international in nature and English law is the leading choice of law for commercial contracts. That is underpinned by the excellence and integrity of our judiciary and the calibre of our legal practitioners. It is right to pay tribute to them, and I am pleased to have the opportunity to do so.
As a result, our successful legal sector contributed £26.8 billion to the economy in 2017 and employs over 300,000 people. To sustain that, we in the United Kingdom must be ready to contribute more than ever to the international rules-based order. For the UK to remain a progressive force in the field of private international law, we must be able both to negotiate and then to implement into British domestic law modern agreements with our international partners once the UK has decided to become bound by them.
The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) made the point—he will forgive me for paraphrasing—“Look, will the British Government impose things on Northern Ireland?” The answer to that is no. Just as we recognise, of course, the distinct and distinguished legal arrangements that exist in Scotland, so it is in Northern Ireland, and no doubt that is what lay behind the legislative consent motions. While it would be the British Government who negotiate the agreement, the decision on whether to bring it into force is a devolved matter for the Ministers in Scotland and, indeed, in Northern Ireland, respectively.
Let me turn to what the Government are proposing to do in respect of clause 2 as was, before the other place removed it. The reintroduction of the delegated power to implement private international law agreements into domestic law via secondary legislation is necessary, proportionate and constitutionally appropriate. My hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), in a characteristically eloquent speech, referred to this at one stage as, I think, the largest potential power grab for some time. I think that was his point, but I respectfully suggest that that needs to be placed in some wider context.
Let me first underscore the point that was touched on by my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West, but also by the Lord Chancellor. Lest we forget, the arrangements that prevailed when we were in the European Union operated a bit as follows: the European Union, on behalf of all the member states, would go out to negotiate these agreements, and having reached an agreement with another country, it would fall to the UK Government in effect to implement it. How would that take place? It would take place either under the doctrine of direct effect, which lawyers in this Chamber will remember stems from the case of Van Gend en Loos, which essentially means—[Interruption.] The right hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) perhaps remembers; I am not sure.
The case of Van Gend en Loos means that, so long as such an agreement satisfies certain appropriate criteria, it would take effect in this country with no parliamentary intervention at all. In other words, hon. and right hon. Members would be entirely ousted from the process of its taking effect in the United Kingdom. However, even if it did take effect by way of direct effect, the effect of section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972 means that it would be Ministers using the negative resolution procedure who brought it into effect in this country.
Joanna Cherry
Of course that is accurate, but as I said earlier, the whole point of Brexit was to take back control. If that is really what Brexit was about, why are the Government reintroducing clause 2 without any of the compromises that I and others have suggested? The whole project of leaving the EU was about taking back control—so we are told—yet the Government are taking that control, rather than giving it to the House or indeed the people.
Alex Chalk
When we talk about taking back control, it is important to note that in future it will not be the EU but the British Government negotiating private international law agreements. I am simply pointing out that when the EU negotiated the arrangements and Parliament had no role at all, it did not seem to attract any concern in this place, yet when it is the British Government negotiating them on behalf of the UK, it seems to create difficulties.
Alex Chalk
I will come to the hon. and learned Member’s second point in a moment, but first I will let my hon. Friend come in on this point.
Mr Djanogly
The difference is that in the EU the Parliament has a vote and a potential veto on international trade agreements. My hon. Friend is arguing in effect that we move back to the position before we were in the EU. I think the point the hon. and learned Lady is making, which I would back up is, that we do not want to go back to what we had before we were in the EU; we want to move forward and have a system that is relevant to today’s democracy.
Alex Chalk
I take that point completely. I will answer it by touching first on what the situation was before we entered the EU and then on how it ought to evolve in a way that I hope meets my hon. Friend’s concerns. He is right—others have touched on this—that arrangements were in place prior to our entering the EU, albeit on a bilateral basis, for us to enter into these sorts of agreements. Two have been touched on because they have been used quite recently: the Foreign Judgments (Reciprocal Enforcement) Act 1933 and the Maintenance Orders (Reciprocal Enforcement) Act 1972.
It is worth taking a moment to consider them. How is the first Act used in practice? In 2003, it was used for us to enter into a PIL agreement with Israel that had a significant impact: namely British courts would have to give effect to what magistrates courts in Israel said. Yet how was that brought into force in the UK? Was it brought into force through an Act of Parliament? No. Was it was brought into force through the affirmative resolution procedure? No. It was brought into force through an Order in Council. It states:
“Her Majesty, in exercise of powers conferred on Her by section 1(4) of the Foreign Judgments (Reciprocal Enforcement) Act 1933, is pleased, by and with the advice of Her Privy Council, to order”—
and then she gave effect to this private international law Bill. My point is simply that this procedure, which was used in 2003, is far inferior to what we are introducing in clause 2. We are doing away with any idea of an Order in Council, which we accept would be too old fashioned. The appropriate way to apply scrutiny in this House is through the CRAG procedure and the affirmative resolution procedure.
The second Act was used in respect of a US agreement in 2007 as a result of which an Order in Council had the effect that an order on maintenance would have to be given effect in the UK. How was that PIL agreement given effect in the UK? It was not through an Act of Parliament but again through an Order in Council, and again we are going beyond that in this Bill.
In dealing with this matter, I want to make one final and very important point. Not content with simply using Orders in Council to introduce PIL agreements in the past, in fact the House has legislated in recent memory to include more scope to introduce PIL agreements by way of delegated legislation. First, the House passed the Insolvency Act 2000, which created a power to introduce regulations in 2006. Secondly—this is the final point that I will make on this issue, but it does seem relevant—the House passed the Mental Capacity Act 2005. That Act created powers to make further provision as to private international law. Paragraph 32(1) of schedule 3 states:
“Regulations may make provision—(a) giving further effect to the Convention”—
that is the convention on the international protection on adults—
“or (b) otherwise about the private international law of England and Wales in relation to the protection of adults.”
In other words, it was being created in 2005.
Mr Djanogly
I appreciate that, but it did not provide a statutory instrument for looking at international financial bonds, insolvency law or other jurisdictional issues; it was focused on that specific area. The point that has been made by many hon. Members this afternoon is that this is too broad.
Alex Chalk
I accept my hon. Friend’s point, but the way it has been framed thus far is, “Look, this is constitutionally unprecedented.” It is not constitutionally unprecedented, and that ought to be borne in mind.
The distinguished Chair of the Justice Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill), made the proper point about criminal laws, and I recognise that that is something that we should look at carefully. It would be going too far to suggest that delegated legislation is not used to introduce criminal laws. An extremely distinguished paper was produced by academics at the University of Glasgow which went so far as to say that the overwhelming majority of criminal offences are created by delegated legislation, particularly where they are highly specific, technical, environmental offences and so on, so it is not without precedent at all, but I recognise that the point requires consideration.
In short, the Bill will future-proof our legislative requirements in this area for the years to come, while at the same time ensuring that UK businesses, individuals and families can continue to benefit from an efficient and effective framework to help resolve cross-border disputes. It will also ensure that our domestic laws can keep up to date with the latest developments in private international law in international forums, and that the UK can implement any agreements it intends to join in a timely manner while maintaining appropriate parliamentary oversight. I commend this Bill to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
PRIVATE INTERNATIONAL LAW (IMPLEMENTATION OF AGREEMENTS) BILL [LORDS]
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),
That the following provisions shall apply to the Private International Law (Implementation of Agreements) Bill [Lords]:
Committal
1. The Bill shall be committed to a Committee of the whole House.
Proceedings in Committee, on Consideration and up to and including Third Reading
2. Proceedings in Committee of the whole House, any proceedings on Consideration and any proceedings in legislative grand committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which proceedings in Committee of the whole House are commenced.
3. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day.
4. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings in Committee of the whole House, to any proceedings on Consideration or to other proceedings up to and including Third Reading.
Other proceedings
5. Any other proceedings on the Bill may be programmed.—(Leo Doherty.)
Question agreed to.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
We will now suspend the sitting for three minutes; those who are leaving the Chamber should do so carefully.
Proceedings During the Pandemic (No. 4)
(3 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Before I call the Leader of the House to move the motion, Members will be aware that the debate on Second Reading of the Bill could have continued until 7 pm and that the next motion on proceedings during the pandemic has been tabled as a motion that is not debatable after 7 pm—a procedure sometimes referred to as “nod or nothing”. As such, a motion can be debated only if the previous business finishes before its full allotted time. A call list has not been prepared, but given that we now have time before 7 pm and I see present some Members who wish to speak, I shall call several colleagues to make brief contributions on the motion.
Motion made and Question proposed,
That the Orders of 2 June (Proceedings during the pandemic (No. 2)) and of 4 June (Virtual participation in proceedings during the pandemic) shall have effect until 3 November 2020.— (Mr Rees-Mogg.)
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
I thank the Leader of the House for tabling the motion and the Procedure Committee for its work on this issue. It is the right thing to do in the circumstances, given the difficulties that we still face with the pandemic, so Her Majesty’s Opposition support the motion.
Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con)
In my role as Chair of the Procedure Committee, I welcome the fact that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House has tabled this motion. There is no doubt that this Parliament is sub-optimal—we have used that term time and again about the way Parliament operates—but in the circumstances we are in and with the Government guidance as it is, this is the best that we make of the situation at this time. I urge right hon. and hon. Friends around the Chamber to agree the motion so that we can continue to make sure that Members who are unable to be here at this time can continue to participate. I urge the Government to look carefully at the guidance for workplaces to see whether it can be changed in ways that will enable us to change the way we hold proceedings in this place.
Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)
The SNP also fully supports the continuation of the provisions for virtual participation. I welcome the proposal that the provisions will run at least until 3 November, which gives us time to plan and prepare properly, allows the Government to progress with their business, and allows Members to participate as safely as they can. Even if some shielding restrictions have been reduced, parts of the country continue to go into local lockdown— we are experiencing some restrictions in my Glasgow constituency—and the more that Members are able to participate virtually, for whatever reason, the less pressure there is on the ancillary services here in the Chamber. The reality is that only 50 people can be in the Chamber at any one time, so enabling Members to continue to contribute to the scrutiny processes through the virtual system is welcome. Attempts to derail the Government’s progress and upset the cross-party consensus on maintaining that would be disappointing, so the Government can be assured of the SNP’s support for the motion.
Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)
I am going to disappoint the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady) by breaking the consensus. It is a paradox that one of the great champions of Back-Bench rights, my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg), has been forced, now that he is Leader of the House, to introduce measures that massively undercut Back-Bench rights.
I have been in the House for 33 years; to call this arrangement sub-optimal is to use a very delicate phrase. This is the weakest House of Commons that I have ever seen. It does not do its job. The House of Commons, at its best, is far greater than the sum of its parts. It is an organic entity that reflects our constituents’ interests and pushes the Government to do better, govern better and make the right decisions first time, not after several preliminary attempts. It has been bled dry—I am being as delicate as I can about what others would call U-turns—and it gives Ministers a pathetically easy time. That is actually not a benefit to Ministers. Having to stand at the Dispatch Box to defend their case, and think through before they arrive all the weaknesses that might be in it, is a way for our Government to improve their case. Those who have been special advisers or Ministers in the past know exactly how the process works. It is one of the things that makes our Government, our Parliament and our democracy better than almost any other in the world.
That is particularly true given that, in late March, under the coronavirus emergency legislation, we gave Ministers huge powers, which were exercised almost straightaway to go into lockdown, and almost straightaway ran into problems because the Government had not had to face this House over several hours to talk about what would happen if somebody’s constituent has a disabled child or a mother they could not look after, or about all the other small, detailed things that make legislation work properly, keep it effective, and keep the confidence of the public.
Frankly, I am not bothered by the performance of the House in the next month, because it is September and we are not doing many very, very important things, but the House, the Government and the country face three massive sets of decisions. Decisions on the recovery of the economy will be critical before the end of October. That is when the various funding schemes run out and we face the brick wall in our economic future. We have Brexit still coming, and October will be the key month there—that is when the rubber is going to hit the road. And of course there is covid-19 running into winter; again, October will be the key time.
Unlike the hon. Member for Glasgow North, I do not think 3 November is a good date. We have to think about the decisions that this House and the Government will have to make during October.
Patrick Grady
That is the whole point: if we get into a second wave in the winter, and there are more local lockdowns and more people who are ill or have to stay at home and shield, that is all the more for reason for people to be able to participate virtually.
Mr Davis
I will come back to participating virtually. I do not disagree that people should be able to participate virtually, but we have the worst of all worlds. At the moment, we have a Chamber that does not work. I have watched my colleagues in this Chamber make incredibly powerful speeches that would have moved the whole House under normal circumstances, and yet they have exactly the same effect as an Adjournment debate speech. That is what is missing; that is the problem. We are in the middle of some of the biggest problems this country has faced in peacetime, and we have a House of Commons that is not functioning. Parliament is not working.
I want the Government to look at ways of making it possible to use the Chamber better. There are small things we can do, like using the Galleries, but I think we should be testing every MP every day so that we can be sure that we can operate properly. People say, “But what about our constituents?” Well, that is what they want; I have had any number of communications in the past couple of weeks saying, “Why aren’t you going back to work? Where are you?” It is very important to do that. We do not have to do away with electronic voting, proxy voting and protecting the vulnerable—by the way, I count as a vulnerable Member in these circumstances—but we can make the House work.
My plea to the Leader of the House is this: by all means carry on for the next month, but before we get to November, when we have to make the decisions about covid—not after covid either has or has not blown up—about the next stage of the economy and about Brexit, we must ensure that we do it with a full and properly functioning House.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
We are in exceptionally difficult times—we often say that, but it is the truth. We have to look at the issues and where we are. I understand the issues that the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) referred to, because they have been on my mind, and particularly those relating to Brexit, primarily because businesses in my constituency are asking me where we will be. They are three or four businesses in the agrifood sector that probably employ 2,500 people. It is very important that they have some idea of where they will be.
But I understand why we need to extend these measures to 3 November. I have to be honest: I support that, because I understand the reasons for it. It is not ideal. There will be burning issues relating to the economy, and those will become greater as furloughing decreases and pressure comes upon businesses, as the way they respond will have an impact on the high streets and our constituents.
Brexit is a burning issue for me, as a Brexiteer. I need to be able to go back to businesses in my constituency and tell them where we are going in relation to it. I am fearful that as we get closer to 3 November, all of a sudden—I said this earlier today to some colleagues—it will be the new year, and then this becomes a real problem, because at the end of this year we will be making many big decisions that will impact greatly on our people.
There is also the issue of covid-19. I am hoping—I say this with lots of prayer—that we will not have a second wave of covid-19. The fact is that we do not know, but we now know better how to respond to it, so there will be that ability, with the Government responding to clusters, but we need the support of our constituents to make that happen.
I make a wee plea to the Leader of the House, and it is one I have made before. One of the things that many of us in this House—indeed, probably all of us—enjoy is being able to take debates on specific subjects to Westminster Hall. I asked Mr Speaker about this. The Chair of the Backbench Business Committee, the hon. Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns), is not here, but I spoke to him before recess. He made me aware, as he has made others aware, of the many outstanding debates that MPs want to bring forward on behalf of their constituents in Westminster Hall, where they have that opportunity. Is it not possible for us to have the opportunity to be involved in Westminster Hall debates between now and 3 November? There is a way of doing that. It is an opportunity that every one of us here enjoys.
Those are the points that I wish to make. I support the reasons why we have to extend these measures to 3 November—we cannot ignore them, because they are so important. But I believe that we must have other methods of answering questions that are relevant to the economy, to Brexit and to covid-19 and being able to participate in a bigger and better way in this House. We all have the privilege of doing so, and every one of us would like to ensure that that continues, but maybe in a better way between now and 3 November.
Sir Robert Syms (Poole) (Con)
I am disappointed that, having come back thinking that we might move on and be able to accommodate more Members within this Chamber, we seem to be where we were in the summer. We are here to lead. We are expecting schools to go back, universities to go back and people to go back to work. With 650 MPs and only 50 allowed in the Chamber, that inevitably restricts the ability of Members to represent their constituents. We live in a difficult time. We also live in a time when Government legislation undermines the civil liberties of many people. We have certain areas of our country in local lockdown, yet those Members of Parliament are restricted in their ability to come to this Chamber because of how we are operating at this moment.
I am disappointed that the motion, had it come at 7 pm, would have been without debate and for an extension until November. We already see the number of cases reducing and the number of deaths and hospital admissions falling, and yet we will continue with the existing arrangement for several more weeks.
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
I apologise for contributing from the Opposition Benches, but there is no room anywhere else. Does my hon. Friend believe that the measures we are taking are proportionate, given that in the last two weeks of July five times more people died of seasonal flu, outside the season, than of covid-19? When we had Hong Kong flu, it carried off 80,000 people. Did we behave in this ridiculous way?
Sir Robert Syms
It is interesting that my right hon. Friend is over there, given the ten-minute rule Bill we had today. The key point is that we should be making progress. If the Government wish to continue, as they do, with the current arrangements, they should not go to November. The arrangements should come back to the House on a more regular basis to be debated and tested, because they affect the civil liberties of our constituents. If the House is willing to go along with them, fine, but just to shut debate down until the beginning of November is wrong. I hope that the Leader of the House, who has been a strong defender of the rights of Back Benchers in this House, comes back and tests the opinion of the House more regularly. I have to say that Back Benchers are restless; they do not have the say that they should have.
Karen Bradley
I agree with much of what my hon. Friend says and I think it is very good that we are actually having a debate on this matter. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will know that I felt strongly that we needed a debate on this matter, but I hope that he can confirm that, if the Government guidance on social distancing and other matters changes before 3 November, he will give the House an opportunity to consider what changes we could make at that time to the way our sittings proceed, based on that revised Government guidance.
Sir Robert Syms
My right hon. Friend makes a very good point, but I also make the point that this is the Parliament of the nation, and we should be deciding the guidance for what our citizens have to do, rather than it go through by edict or statutory instrument without proper debate. We need to be debating these issues and we are not doing so. At the moment, I do not think this House is in a position to call itself a proper Parliament. If we are to proceed in this way, the House ought to consider the motion on a more regular basis with a debate, and the Government should on those occasions put forward the reasons why we should stay as we are. As many Members have said, there are many big issues out there that we should consider, and I think that Parliament is going down a cul-de-sac by supporting this motion.
Sir Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
I very much agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Sir Robert Syms), and also with my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), because this motion is over the top. It was only at the end of July that we agreed to extend the arrangements until the end of September. What has happened since the end of July that has caused us now to feel the need to extend them until the beginning of November?
The motion is consistent with the knee-jerk way in which the Government are dealing with many of our constituents. Take, for example, last Saturday when at 24 hours’ notice the Government introduced an extension to the restrictions on evictions of tenants from 20 September until March of next year. That six-month extension was implemented without any impact assessment and without any notice. Now we are talking about having a much longer period of notice before we introduce changes to the way in which we operate in this House.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden made an excellent point in saying that we are on the cusp of being able to have a testing regime of the type that was spoken about by the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care yesterday.
He said that a 90-minute testing regime would soon be in place. If that is in place in the next two or three weeks, which I very much hope it will be, that would negate completely the purpose of the motion before us.
I hope that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, who is generally a great facilitator of parliamentary and legislative scrutiny, will agree that although the motion is likely to go through this evening there will, notwithstanding what is in the motion, be a review in which the Procedure Committee will be able to express its own opinion, so that we can take into account the emerging evidence and the ability to provide us all with tests. If we were all tested and those tests were pretty accurate, we would be able to set a much better example to those people who are going back to schools, the people we are encouraging to go back to factories, the people we are encouraging to get back on to public transport.
I will not speak at greater length now because I have a very similar subject on legislative scrutiny for this evening’s Adjournment debate and I would not want to eat into my own time.
The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg)
I am extraordinarily keen that the House should get back to normal operation. Hon. and right hon. Members may remember that when we reduced the hybrid Parliament on 2 June, it was perhaps not the most popular motion I have ever brought forward to this House—that there was at that point considerable reluctance to limit hybridity. But I thought it was fundamentally important that we set the lead for the nation. We have in fact been back at work in this place since the beginning of June, and we have been primarily physical from that point; and I think that has led the way.
I would encourage hon. and right hon. Members to look at what the motion actually does, rather than what they fear it does. We have the limitation on Members sitting in the Chamber, being physically present, but that is under a motion that says, under “Participation in Proceedings”:
“The Speaker…may limit the number of Members present in the Chamber at any one time”.
That does not set the number at 50; the number is not set in stone. These arrangements—the little cards that replace our prayer cards—are not under Standing Orders; they are at the discretion of Mr Speaker, on the advice of Public Health England. The Commission discussed with Public Health England, the last time they visited us, how we could change that; how, with the change to three and a quarter feet, we could have more people in the Chamber, and the Commission said we could do that, on the advice of Public Health England, if we made our speeches sitting down and wore masks. Now, I must say to this House that my personal opinion is that it would be far worse to allow a few more people in here, and to sit down with masks on our faces to try and orate, in a most ludicrous fashion.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) is one of the most distinguished orators in this House, and I think he did himself a disservice when he said that his speeches were received now, in this Chamber, as if it were a very quiet Adjournment debate. I think that, with 50 in the Chamber, Members can have an effect on the mood of the House. Yes, it is not the same as that packed and bustling Chamber that we get for the Queen’s Speech and Prime Minister’s questions, but look around: here we are, on a Wednesday afternoon, and the House is not full. There are spare seats, even with social distancing. Many of the people who watch our proceedings know that actually, with a few exceptions, this is broadly as full as the Chamber usually is. It is not that all the 400-odd seats are taken every day; it is that there are a few occasions when the Chamber is full, and those few occasions, I absolutely accept, are less exciting than they normally would be. But it does not mean there is no holding to account. It does not mean there is no representation of our constituents.
Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)
I am listening to the Leader of the House and of course he is right to talk about this Chamber—this House of Commons—and it is about this House of Commons, but I wonder whether he would address the point raised by the hon. Member for Westminster Hall, otherwise known as the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), about Westminster Hall, about the Backbench Business Committee, about the Petitions Committee, about the tapestry of debate in this place. Having been a Minister—a Public Health Minister, who spent most of his life in Westminster Hall answering debates—I know that is what keeps Ministers honest. That is what means that you have to be on top of your brief. Parliament is missing that tapestry, and therefore it is missing scrutiny—and not just on covid. There are many other issues that this place is missing out on because we have hobbled this place, and we are living a lie to the public at the moment. We have never worked harder, but we are not working hard here in SW1.
Mr Rees-Mogg
I gave the good news to the House at the last session before the recess that Westminster Hall will be coming back in October, and I believe that private Members’ Bills will be coming forward next week, so we are getting back to the normal pattern. I do not wish to pre-empt my statement tomorrow by indicating thoughts about Backbench Business days, but Members should listen carefully, as there may be good news on that.
We are back at work in this place. Many of us, I among them, have brought our staff back into the office from 1 September. Mr Speaker has rightly asked that we limit that to two members of staff, and I encourage Members to follow that, but we are back at work in SW1 and the opportunities for holding to account are there. Let me point out that when we brought forward the earlier proposals that we are now renewing, or in the emergency debate afterwards, I took more than two dozen interventions, if my memory serves me right, from Members concerned about what was happening. If that is not scrutinising Ministers at the Dispatch Box, I do not know what is.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Ind)
I am a little surprised that the Leader of the House tried to draw a comparison between the presence of Members in the Chamber when we are having a debate in the later part of the day and the spontaneity of oral Question Time, which has been lost completely. I accept that he has done his best, as have the Speaker and the Deputy Speakers, to get as many people as possible into oral questions, remotely, as well as in person, but spontaneity has gone nevertheless and if a Member is unlucky in a ballot, their voice is silenced.
Mr Rees-Mogg
I am very keen that more Members should be present, and I would say that these motions are permissive—they are not compulsory; people do not have to appear remotely. However, it seems sensible to keep the opportunity for remote participation, because some Members may prefer to appear remotely if the area they represent is in a local lockdown. They would not be obliged to, because there is an absolute right to attend Parliament, but they may prefer that in those circumstances, and that ought to be facilitated. It ought to continue until we are confident that there will not be further local lockdowns. That is a reasonable position to have. It may be that the House will think that it should be more tightly drawn, but I do not think that is the consensus of the House at the moment. Members do not have to appear remotely, and I certainly encourage them to be here in person.
Mr David Davis
I do not think for a moment that we should do away with the ability of vulnerable Members to take part remotely, be it through voting or taking part in debate—it is too soon for that. There is no doubt about that. However, I wish to come back to the point about spontaneity and controversy in this House. Everything my right hon. Friend said before, resting on Public Health England and other “august” authorities, depended on ignoring what my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Sir Christopher Chope) and I have said about testing. If this House undertakes proper testing—it is now technically possible to test, in 90 minutes, every Member of the House every day, if need be—this House could return to being what it was before, in short order.
Mr Rees-Mogg
The problem with testing is that it tells us only whether someone has this virus; it does not tell us whether someone is in the process of developing it. Therefore, as I understand it—I am not pretending to be the Health Secretary—if someone tests negative in the morning, they may, none the less, have caught it the night before and be positive by the vote at 10 pm. Therefore, much as I wish that what my right hon. Friend was saying were the case, I do not think it is as straightforward as that.
Sir Desmond Swayne
With the greatest respect, that is an argument against the effectiveness of testing in any form, anywhere. Either we are going to accept the testing regime and live accordingly, or we are completely lost.
Mr Rees-Mogg
As I am sure my right hon. Friend is aware, the point of the 14-day quarantine is that after 14 days it is clear that you have not been infected and that a test indicating that you are clear will mean that you are completely clear. However, people who have the illness need to self-isolate for only seven days until the symptoms have cleared up, because after that point they are not infectious. Those two differentials show that the testing regime is worth using and also that it does not show that you haven’t got it until you have got it, if my right hon. Friend follows what I am saying.
The key points here are not only that we are getting back to work in this House, but that we were already back at work. We led the way. The letters that came into my office about what we were doing in June bear some reading. People did not think we were necessarily wise to be leading the way as we did, but we are back. We are firmly back. We are physically voting, and most business in this House takes place physically rather than virtually. None the less, to protect some vulnerable people, and to consider the situation of the nation as a whole, we have maintained some facilities voluntarily used by Members to allow for remote participation in some of our proceedings, and we are maintaining social distancing within the Chamber, which is in line with Government advice.
A number of hon. and right hon. Members have asked whether that can be changed before 3 November, and the answer is yes, of course it can. If the advice of PHE changes, Mr Speaker can change the arrangement of the House under this order immediately. There would need to be no delay and no debate. This is a facilitating motion to allow us to keep up with the best recommendations from PHE. I note that my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden does not have much confidence in that organisation, but I would ask him where else the advice is going to come from. Who are we going to take the advice from? I think we have to take it from the responsible Government body.
John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
Would the House authorities and the Leader of the House also look at the question of whether we can optimise the use of the seats we have? Why do we have to keep to the rule that we cannot speak from certain seats, when we are desperately short of seats and want more people to spontaneously join in the debate?
Mr Rees-Mogg
My right hon. Friend has a record of making important and valid points in the Chamber, and that one is absolutely spot on. We must of course look at whether we can use those seats. As I look up to the Galleries, I note that according to “Erskine May” it is still possible to speak from the Galleries. It might upset the broadcasters a little, but I am not sure that that is everybody’s concern. If my right hon. Friend went up to the Gallery and sang “Rule, Britannia!”, I wonder whether the broadcasters would find a way of recording and broadcasting it. Perhaps he would like to do that.
I want to reassure the House that I, perhaps as much as anybody in this Chamber, want to get back to normal. I, as much as anybody in this Chamber, think it is right that we have been leading the way for the nation as a whole, but this motion is not as bad as it seems. It is permissive, not compulsory. It allows discretion, and it will allow the numbers to increase. Yes, it runs till 3 November, but bear in mind that proxy voting will come up for review before the end of this month. This is not the only time we will be able to discuss this and to think about it, but this seems to me to be the right step to be taking this evening.
Question put and agreed to.
Petitions
(3 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
I rise to present a petition on behalf of my constituents of the North Ayrshire and Arran constituency and I do so under great advice from huge numbers of them.
The petition states:
The petition of residents of the constituency of North Ayrshire and Arran,
Declares that the House of Lords is unrepresentative of and unaccountable to the general UK population, over which it makes decisions and casts votes on important issues; expresses concern at the recent creation of 36 new life peers, increasing the size of the House of Lords to nearly 800 Members, despite the Government’s commitment to reducing the size of the House of Lords; notes that the House of Lords is the largest parliamentary chamber in any democracy; further notes that the House of Lords is one of very few parliamentary bodies in the world with reserved places for members of the clergy—
Iran being the only other example—
further notes concern over the number of peers that fail to speak in the chamber yet are able to claim expenses, for example in 2016-17 when 115 peers failed to speak even once yet still claimed £1.3 million between them; and further notes concern over the high proportion of members of the House of Lords who were, before their elevation, significant donors to political parties.
The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to abolish the House of Lords in the interests of democracy, accountability and transparency.
And the petitioners remain, etc.
[P002592]
Judith Cummins (Bradford South) (Lab)
I rise to present this petition on behalf of Terry Holt who owns the Pride gym in Low Moor and other gym and fitness facility owners in my constituency and across Bradford.
The petition states:
The petition of residents of the United Kingdom,
Declares that the continued closure of gyms and fitness facilities in Bradford only is having a grave impact on a vast number of businesses and members, creating a desperate situation with consequences beyond what is being appreciated by those in power; notes that businesses in Bradford that are currently closed have received no additional support during the extra four weeks and are closed at their own cost; further declares that, after over four months of closure, any recovery from these closures becomes more unlikely by the day; further notes that gym members are being forced to travel into neighbouring districts causing a counter intuitive effect in social mixing, and in turn increasing the transmission risk; further declares that Bradford is currently facing an obesity, diabetes and mental health crisis which these facilities are at the forefront of fighting; and further declares that the nature of these closures was based on now out-of-date advice, and not on more recent data that is available and shows that the measures gyms are putting in place greatly mitigate any risk to almost zero.
The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to allow gyms to reopen in the Bradford district according to COVID-secure guidelines.
And the petitioners remain, etc.
[P002593]
Regulatory Impact Assessments (Legislative Scrutiny)
(3 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Sir Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
I shall start with some quotes from my constituents about the Government:
“The most inept and incompetent administration in my lifetime.”
“Incoherent and indecisive.” “Authoritarian and arrogant.” “Inconsistent and incomprehensible.” “Socialist in all but name.” As these criticisms become increasingly difficult to rebut, it is indeed essential that the Prime Minister gets a grip. The constructive purpose of this debate is to remind the Government that one key tool to enable them to get a grip is to use regulatory impact assessments as part of the policy-making process.
A regulatory impact assessment is a well-established, internationally acclaimed toolkit for good policy making. It facilitates transparency and public accountability, promotes democratic discussion by enabling potential possible policy options to be evaluated and compared. It prevents the inconsistency that arises from knee-jerk reactions and policies being developed on the hoof.
It helps to ensure that sudden changes are the exception and are made in response to changes in hard evidence rather than in response to the chorus of a single-issue pressure group—and I think it is probably fair to say that the covid alarmists are the most successful pressure group in British history. If, for the past six months, the Government had been using this toolkit, it would not have been possible for commentators to observe, as one did on Sunday:
“Britain has become a paradise for those who like to answer questions with ‘rules is rules’; even when they’re clearly made up on the spot or nonsensical.”
Allowing beard and eyebrow trimming for men but not eyebrow treatments for women was but one ridiculous example.
Most fair-minded observers supported the Government’s initial response to the covid-19 pandemic. The Government had no option but to make their priority ensuring that our hospitals were able to treat all those seriously ill as a result of covid-19. Our NHS was not as well-prepared as it would have been if the recommendations of Exercise Cygnus had been implemented. Cygnus was a brilliant initiative to war-game a serious epidemic of respiratory illness in order to identify where investment was needed to fill the gaps and thereby ensure an effective response. Tragically, Public Health England did not learn the lessons identified and failed to put the recommended preparatory work in place. We, the public, have been denied access to the full results. It remains a mystery to me as to why the Government are so defensive about the whole matter—and have indeed been dodging parliamentary questions that I have put down on the subject.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
The hon. Gentleman often brings things to the House that are very important, and this is certainly one of them. Does he agree that impact assessments, if produced reliably, can form a critical element of the better regulation agenda? Regulatory impact assessments need to be the right foundation and the right basis to ensure that legislative scrutiny is not just a checklist but is instead an effective mechanism. I think that that is what he was referring to.
Sir Christopher Chope
The hon. Gentleman has given a brilliant summary of my Adjournment thesis. He is saying that this should not be a tick-box exercise but that clear evidence should be presented that can then lead to proper debate and facilitate scrutiny, and that is what this is all about. I hope the Government are still wedded to that, because their better regulation unit has had consultations and is, I think, still taking the line that we need to have proper regulatory impact assessments. The purpose of this debate is to try to get some more assurance from the Government that they are going to apply these principles not just to covid-19 but to other regulatory measures that are, at the moment, being brought in with far too insufficient scrutiny.
Tomorrow it will be six months since the Department of Health and Social Care policy paper on coronavirus was published. This action plan, as it became, on which the Coronavirus Act 2020 was based, envisaged four phases: contain, delay, research and mitigate. The delay phase was to
“slow the spread in this country, if it does take hold, lowering the peak impact and pushing it away from the winter season”.
Because of the emergency timetable, the legislation had the sketchiest of regulatory impact assessments, without any cost-benefit analysis. But who would have thought that none of the regulations being made under that primary legislation would be properly evaluated before implementation? I certainly hoped that that would happen, but it has not.
The basic steps in the RIA process should involve consultation and an assessment of the nature and extent of the problems to be addressed. There should be a clear statement of the policy objectives and goals of the regulatory proposal, which should include the enforcement regime and strategy for ensuring compliance. Alternative courses of action should be identified, including any non-regulatory approaches considered as potential solutions to the identified problem. There should also be a clear outline of the benefits and costs expected from the proposal and identified alternatives. The conclusion should not only identify the preferred solution but explain how it is superior to the other alternatives considered. Finally, there should be a monitoring and evaluation framework set out describing how performance will be measured.
Although the processes I have set out could not be embarked on in the immediate emergency of introducing lockdown, they should surely form an inherent part of the process of easing lockdown, and ensuring consistent and timely relaxations of the regulations. It is the failure to do this that has resulted in sudden and contradictory changes to the regulations.
This has also led to unacceptable mission creep, which increasingly embodies a gradual shift in objectives. Hon. and right hon. Members will remember that the original objective was to enable the NHS to provide the best care to all the victims of covid-19 who needed it. That clear mission has now widened into a mission to suppress the spread of covid-19 as an end in itself, regardless of the cost. The irony is that, in allowing the original objective to be blurred, the important subsidiary objective of preventing the virus peaking again in the winter is being put in jeopardy.
The easing of lockdown has, sadly, become a veritable shambles. While the number of deaths from covid-19 has mercifully plummeted from its April peak, there has not been a corresponding relaxation of the emergency regulations. I shall refer later to the OECD principles of best practice for regulatory policy, but one of the key principles is:
“Proposed solutions should be appropriate to the risk posed, and costs identified and minimised.”
In the statement he made yesterday to the House, the Secretary of State for Health said that there are now
“60 patients in mechanical ventilator beds with coronavirus”.—[Official Report, 1 September 2020; Vol. 679, c. 23.]
This compares with 3,300 at the peak of the epidemic, and he then said that the latest quoted number for reported deaths is two in one day. Today, The Sun newspaper has calculated from these figures that the odds of catching covid-19 in England are about 44 in 1 million per day. Economist Tim Harford, who presents what I think is one, if not the only, good programme on the BBC—the statistics programme, “More or Less”—has said:
“Covid-19 currently presents a background risk of a one in a million chance of death or lasting harm, every day.”
While age, gender, geography, behaviour and other aspects affect the risk, it is now far lower than the risk of death or serious injury in a motor accident. On average, five people continue to be killed each day on our roads, yet I have not yet heard from the Government any proposals to ban people from driving because of the risks associated with so doing.
One sure way of ensuring consistency would be to impose the discipline of a regulatory impact assessment on each and every continuing restriction, so that the justification for loss of personal liberty could be evaluated against the alleged benefits. It is not too late for this to start, and I hope that the Minister, in responding to this debate, will provide an assurance that the forthcoming six-month review of the legislation will include a full regulatory impact assessment and an evaluation of the performance of the emergency regulations introduced.
The public would then be able to see the evidence about whether the decisions taken were correct. For example, was closing schools and setting back the education of the covid regeneration a proportionate and necessary measure? Was the postponement of 107,000 weddings across the United Kingdom justified? Could any of the 4,452 weddings which should have taken place last Saturday have been permitted? Why can people sit safely side by side with strangers on an aircraft, but not at a wedding breakfast or in a church, a theatre or a concert hall—or even in this Chamber?
Why was the World Health Organisation advice, which was originally that there should be 1 metre social distancing, not applied from the outset? We introduced a 2-metre or 6-foot rule, but that has now been modified with the 1 metre-plus rule, but at the same time the additional safeguards required for the 1 metre-plus situation are being applied to the 2-metre situation, which is creating all sorts of problems, conflicts and uncertainties for our constituents.
Is it protecting the NHS to create a situation where, as was revealed in The Times on 27 August, 15.3 million people are now on the hidden waiting list for treatment? Is it reasonable that we should try to prevent two deaths a day and keep 15.3 million people on waiting lists for treatment, with all the dire consequences that flow from that? Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not know whether you were listening to the Secretary of State for Health when he made his statement yesterday, but in my view his responses on the issue of NHS waiting lists were the weakest and least convincing parts of what he had to say.
Is the continuing economic cost of lockdown now disproportionate to the benefits? Well, let us have an exercise and see. Let us see the data presented, so that we can have a proper debate about it. I raised the importance of regulatory impact assessments in public policy making with the Leader of the House at business questions on 2 July. It was his response on that occasion which caused me to apply for this Adjournment debate, which I am delighted that we are having this evening. I said that we would be able to achieve much more consistency in Government advice with regulatory impact assessments. The Leader of the House, however, argued that
“if we spend too long doing all this, by the time we have done it we have moved on to the next stage of the lockdown.”
He accused me of “calling for bureaucratic folderol”, which would inhibit moving
“at a pace to ensure that things happen in a timely manner”.—[Official Report, 2 July 2020; Vol. 678, c. 534.]
Would that they were. But I must correct the Leader of the House, because, far from being the worthless trifles described in the expression “folderol”, regulatory impact assessments are fundamental to ensuring that we make the right decisions as legislators.
It is incredible that, instead of lockdown continuing to be relaxed, new restrictions on freedom, such as mandatory face coverings, have been introduced. The consequence is that I detect a growing atmosphere of gloom and foreboding as we see winter approaching: no vaccine availability for many months; the economy in a worse state than most of our competitors; and the prospect of the resurgence of the pandemic coinciding with the flu season. I do not like the expression “waves” because it makes it seem as though we are talking about something equivalent to the Atlantic rollers so much enjoyed by our former Prime Minister and colleague, David Cameron. We are not talking about waves. We are talking about the potential resurgence of the pandemic—not everywhere, but in particular hotspots.
This scenario demands a rational evaluation of conflicting risks to the economy and public health, together with a cost-benefit analysis, and now is the time for the Government to reinstate the intellectual rigour of the regulatory impact assessment process. Sooner or later, the incredible economic cost of the Government’s failure to remove lockdown restrictions in a timely and effective manner will become apparent. If that coincides with the Government asking their natural supporters to pay the price for their failure through higher taxes, the political consequences will indeed be dire. It is for that reason that I commend to the Government what the OECD says about regulatory impact analysis. It describes it as an
“important element of an evidence-based approach to policy-making…that…can underpin the capacity of governments to ensure that regulations are efficient and effective in a changing and complex world.”
I will not read from the whole OECD regulatory impact assessment report on best practice principles for regulatory policy, but it extends to about 40 or 50 pages and is extremely well researched and documented. As I understand it—the Minister will correct me if I am wrong—these principles are supported by the Government; the trouble is that they do not seem to be being implemented by the Government and by Government Departments. I hope that in his response the Minister will tell us what he is doing to try and put that right.
The Government should revert to following their own “better regulation framework” established under the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015, which requires that
“A RIA should be prepared for all significant regulatory provisions as a standard of good policy making and where an appropriate RIA is expected by parliament and other stakeholders.”
The interim guidance issued in March this year sets out a general threshold for independent scrutiny of regulatory impact assessments and post-implementation reviews, where the annual net direct cost to business is greater than £5 million. It calls on Government Departments to undertake proportionate cost-benefit analysis to inform decision making.
The trouble is that this is not being done, and I will give just one topical example, to which I referred in my brief comments in the previous debate. Under the Coronavirus Act 2020, there was specific primary legislation saying that residential tenancies should be protected from eviction until 20 September this year. On Friday last week—27 August—regulations were made extending that period from 20 September for another six months. The regulations came into force on 28 August, which was last Saturday, the very same day that they were laid before Parliament. Regulation 1(2) says:
“These Regulations come into force on the day after the day on which they are laid”.
Those regulations have caused a storm of protest from residential landlords in my constituency; they are apoplectic about the fact that they are not going to be able to recover possession of their premises. Notwithstanding the contractual agreements they have entered into with their tenants, they are not going to be able to recover their premises until 31 March 2021.
It says in the explanatory notes to the regulations that they amend schedule 29 of the 2020 Act. This is primary legislation being amended by subordinate legislation subject only to the negative resolution procedure, and so one might have expected that there would be a regulatory impact assessment or something which would indicate to us, on behalf of our constituents, that the Government have thought this whole process through, but that is not there, and instead there is a little note which says:
“A full impact assessment has not been produced for this instrument due to the temporary nature of the provision.”
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
I thank my good friend for allowing me to intervene. In my constituency I have a huge backlash from residential landlords about this extension. I find it almost impossible to believe that the Department has not done an assessment of this, and I make the assumption—perhaps my hon. Friend or the Minister will correct me—that an assessment was done. I cannot believe that civil servants and decent Ministers would have made such a decision without actually looking at it, as this is a really bad thing for people who are trying to provide accommodation, because they see no good in this whatsoever; in fact it is extremely bad.
Sir Christopher Chope
I agree with my hon. Friend. One would have expected that an assessment was carried out—we will hear from the Minister in a minute whether there was—but what was so extraordinary is that it was only a week or two before the U-turn of last week that we were being assured by Ministers that there was no proposal to extend the application time for these regulations. I imagine that when Ministers were briefing that, they had not done any work suggesting that they wanted to extend the regulations, and then, at the last minute—perhaps as a result of the pressure group behaviours to which I referred—the Government just changed their mind. They had imposed this regulation at enormous cost, but we do not know what cost, because there is no estimate of that.
Sir Christopher Chope
I hope that that is on the record—it makes us look like clowns. That is why I hope that we can persuade the Government to reform their ways. It is also extraordinary that the excuse should be put forward that this is a temporary arrangement and that is why there is no need for a regulatory impact assessment. That is not set out anywhere in any of the books on this, and it is a novel interpretation of what should be happening.
Switching away from the regulations directly related to coronavirus, I have received support for raising this issue from the Internet Association, which is the only trade association that exclusively represents leading global internet companies on matters of public policy. The organisation responded to the Government’s invitation when they went out to consultation in June inquiring about the reforming regulation initiative. It said, “Regulation in the digital sector has a wide range of potential impacts which extend beyond traditional economic impact analysis. As a matter of course, the Internet Association recommends that Government Departments and regulators undertake a wider impact assessment of their proposals covering not only the economic impact, but also issues such as technological feasibility and impacts on freedom of expression and privacy.” It goes on to say that “there have been a number of recent policy and regulatory initiatives in the digital sector where it has not been clear whether an impact assessment has been conducted and/or the impact assessment has not been published for external scrutiny.” It gives an example of the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport/Home Office online harms White Paper. The Internet Association believes that wider regulatory impact assessments, as specified, should be required for major digital policy and regulatory initiatives. Therefore, this extends into that field also, as it does to all legislative and Government policy making—or it should do—and I hope that we will be able to get ourselves back on track.
The interim guidance to which I refer, which was published in March this year, referred to the Government considering how best the better regulation framework can be delivered
“more effectively over the course of this Parliament”.
Now is the time, surely, to take some action. As their first step, the Government should promise that the six-monthly review of the Coronavirus Act 2020 will be accompanied by a full post-implementation review and that a full cost-benefit analysis of those emergency regulations that it recommends should be kept in place. I hope that the Minister will announce that he is going to do that tonight and thereby help to restore public confidence in the Government’s decision making and the ability of Parliament to scrutinise it, because that is fundamental. I am grateful for the opportunity to put this point to the House.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Sir Christopher Chope) for bringing this important issue to the House. Parliamentary debate and the exchange of views reflect the importance of parliamentary scrutiny.
When a policy decision is made, it is informed by an assessment of the potential impacts of a range of different policy options. The evidence and analysis informing these decisions will inform consultation and engagement with stakeholders, and for legislative proposals, it is usually presented to Parliament in a regulatory impact assessment alongside the legislation. In the UK, regulatory impact assessments present the outcomes of evidence-based processes and procedures that assess the economic, social and environmental effects of public policy on businesses and wider society. Their use has contributed to better policy making and reduced the cost to business, which is so important.
Our commitment to conducting such impact assessments remains strong. The analysis that goes into impact assessments ensures that Government consider the need for and likely impact of new regulations to support legislative change. They ensure that we consider how regulation will affect the operation of markets and best enable businesses to innovate, and, in line with the subject of this debate, they inform parliamentary decision making.
Where Government intervention requires a legislative or policy change to be made, Departments are expected to analyse and assess the impact of the change on the different groups affected. That is generally published in the form of a regulatory impact assessment. However, attempts to conduct regulatory impact assessments for public policy making, particularly in the current climate of the coronavirus pandemic, could be problematic. That is because responding to emergencies requires legislation to be introduced at a much greater pace than during normal times.
The Coronavirus Bill, introduced in March this year, provided powers needed to respond to the coronavirus pandemic. The powers enabled the Government to introduce temporary emergency legislation to respond to the pandemic. To allow the Government to deliver at the required pace, formal regulatory impact assessments are not required for better regulation purposes for the temporary measures put in place in response to the pandemic. Further flexibility in the approach to impact assessments is appropriate where permanent measures need to be enforced urgently.
My hon. Friend mentioned some specific examples where we have assessed the impact in a different way. He is right to talk about the importance of regulatory impact assessments. Some of the guidelines that he mentioned fall within my area. The specific residential landlord and tenant issue that he mentioned falls to my colleagues in the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, but in terms of the commercial Landlord and Tenant Act 1954 changes, we found from listening and speaking to businesses over a period that some companies that were struggling to pay their rent were being wound up by some landlords, so we acted.
This is on the basis of detailed, long-standing conversation and engagement with businesses on both sides of the debate. In my short time as a Minister, I have had around 500 meetings with, I estimate, 3,000 to 4,000 businesses, so I think I have a reasonable handle on retail, hospitality, weddings and the beauticians who do eyebrows and beard trimming that my hon. Friend mentioned. It is a source of great regret that we are unable to allow wedding celebrations of more than 30 people to occur at the moment. I have seen at first hand and heard from people in the wedding sector, which is an enormous contributor to the UK economy, how badly they are suffering as a result.
Edward Timpson (Eddisbury) (Con)
I know that my hon. Friend has been working hard with a range of different sectors, including the wedding industry. Will he reassure the House that work is ongoing to try to find a way for wedding venues to reopen more fully, beyond the current 30-person limit, so that they can see a future ahead of them?
Paul Scully
I am glad that my hon. Friend made that point. He has been working tirelessly with his local wedding venues in Eddisbury to try to get a road map. We continue to work and engage on that issue to make sure that the sector, which is a really important contributor to the UK economy, can reopen, and that people whose special day is being put off, and in some cases ruined, can come together.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Ind)
I fully accept that in certain Departments, including the Minister’s own, Ministers are trying conscientiously to weigh up the different factors, come to sensible decisions and stick to them, but will he take the message back to the Government that the inability of Government at a very high level to choose policies that seem capable of withstanding gusts of public opinion or media opinion, which is something else, is undermining confidence in the process, at least in part of Government, because if a decision has to be changed in the way that my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Sir Christopher Chope) described in his rather splendid opening speech, that suggests that a certain degree of rigour is absent.
Paul Scully
I think that rather than gusts of public pressure, the Government have been working in what is, in effect, as close to real-time decision making as we are ever going to get, and it is based on health advice and the business response. My right hon. Friend talked about the press and the media; I direct him to the example with which my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch started—male eyebrow trimming and beard trimming—because that was never actually in the guidance. The guidance, which I worked on, was such that male beard trimming could work out, apart from detailing at the front if there was close, face-to-face, near contact. That was exactly the same as female eyebrow trimming, so there was no sense that men could go and get their eyebrows trimmed and women could not. The rhetoric in the media that men were getting a better deal than females, which understandably upset beauticians, just was not the actuality—it was not what was happening—but unfortunately, as we know, it is sometimes difficult to work with the media to stop a good story.
We must continue to engage. We do want to get back to the formality of regulatory impact assessments but, as I say, we need to engage at pace, so we will continue to listen to businesses. Sometimes, the consultations on the guidance we have been working on have lasted literally 12 hours on a Sunday. That guidance has come to me, to the unions and to businesses and we have all been acting within the same time constraints. We have not been hiding things away from businesses and those people who are most affected by this situation.
Jim Shannon
I must say that I am impressed by the number of people and businesses the Minister has met; that is an indication of the knowledge that he has gauged from them. May I make a quick suggestion on weddings? It is possible, in a bigger venue, to have people self-distanced and to have more than 30 people. It is also possible at weddings to have clusters of families who live closely together: there could be tables of 10 people —genuinely—which could increase the numbers who can go to weddings. To go back to the issue of regulatory impact assessments, if that was done, more people could attend weddings.
Paul Scully
As I say, weddings have been a big source of concern for me and others and, understandably, that argument has been put to me. The huge difference between weddings and, say, restaurants—an example that has often been cited—is that the wedding parties tend to know each other, whereas in a restaurant people have little interest in speaking to those at the table next door. Clearly, if someone’s grandmother or extended family are sitting at the next table, as the wedding and the evening develops, social distance suddenly starts to fall by the wayside.
I totally get the fact that wedding organisers know everybody who is there, so they can register and have test and trace working effectively, but it is a concern to the scientists. We are trying to balance the economy from the economic point of view, the human behaviour point of view and the science point of view, which is a difficult mix to deal with. Because we are working at pace, the regulatory impact assessments, which are the source of this debate, are not always easy to compile. For the reasons that the Leader of the House gave—I understand the concern of my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch about the way that was worded—when compiling a formal regulatory impact assessment while working at pace, it is not always possible to go through that procedure.
We are reminding Departments of the importance of ensuring that appropriate resources are invested in gathering and analysing evidence about the regulatory impacts of the affected policies, and to publish it, where appropriate, throughout the period, if not at that particular time.
Sir Christopher Chope
May I present a challenge to the Minister? Will he publish for our benefit a regulatory impact assessment on the issue of not allowing larger weddings? That would bring into the open all the issues with which he is familiar but which have not yet been exposed to public debate and scrutiny. Is that not what it is all about? This has now been going on for six months, and people want to know where the future lies for the small organisations involved in weddings. Will he offer to do that for us, notwithstanding the fact that his Department is very busy? That would be really helpful.
While I have the Floor, let me also say that I am concerned that the Minister seemed to distance himself from what is happening to individual landlords. Although they may not be incorporated, they are small businesses.
Paul Scully
To answer my hon. Friend’s last point, I am not distancing myself; I literally was not involved in that decision. I do not want to offer a line of thought on something that I was not involved in, but I understand his point.
On weddings and the public debate, my hon. Friend has clearly not been following my Twitter feed—totally understandably—which is full of such debates about the wedding sector. We are trying to work with the sector to make sure it can open. My primary concern is about ensuring we get our economy open again with a warm but safe welcome to people. The Government’s first priority has always been to save and protect lives, but restoring livelihoods, protecting jobs and protecting businesses are right up there, for the reasons that my hon. Friend set out. If we do not get this kick-started now, the effect on the economy will be huge, so it is important that we work together to give people not just confidence but joy, so that when they come out to use services in their local high streets and city centres they enjoy the experience and come back time and time again.
A one-off hit to our economy is not good enough. We know it is not going to go back to how it was in February, and there are some permanent behaviour changes that seem to be kicking in. None the less, we need to work with the new normal, which means working with the virus, because we will be living with it. My hon. Friend talked about a second wave, or spike or whatever he wants to call it. If we learn to live with it, there may be a third and a fourth until we get a vaccine, but live with it we must. There will be a new reality of the permanent behaviour change.
Well-designed and effective regulation, which my hon. Friend wants to see in our legislation, and which we are championing, enables markets and business to flourish, grow and innovate. It can provide certainty for investors and protection for individuals and society. The use of impact assessments in informing regulatory design can help us to achieve those outcomes. Excessive or poorly designed regulation can impede innovation and create unnecessary barriers to trade, investment and economic efficiency. We have sought to limit that by ensuring that regulation changes in response to the pandemic are targeted and time-limited.
Bob Stewart
One of the biggest things that the Government have insisted on is facemasks, which we have mentioned already. I would be intrigued to know whether there is a regulatory impact assessment on why we all have to wear facemasks in public and various other places, because I have not seen it. If there is one that could be made public, perhaps it could be put in the House of Commons Library. There are growing numbers of people in my constituency of Beckenham who are rebelling against that idea.
Paul Scully
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I get the train and the underground into London each and every day, and the adherence of people to wearing face masks is, on the whole, good. Tube use, I am glad to say, is increasing substantially. London city centre—the central activity zone in London—is incredibly quiet. That is affecting the west end in particular, and the City.
The west end represents 3% of the entire UK economy—just the west end—so although we need to make sure that the whole country is able to restore the confidence and joy that I was talking about, it would be remiss of me, as Minister for London as well, not to showcase those areas that make up a massive amount of our capital city as a strategic and world city, so that it is ready for international travellers when they have the confidence to travel.
The Government’s focus has been on improving design and proportionality in regulation. That is done through the Better Regulation Executive, which is responsible for embedding smarter, more cost-efficient and better regulation across Government, and which has recently introduced new guidance templates and training to improve the quality of impact assessments. As a result, impact assessments have clearer presentation of results, better planning for implementation and more quantification of costs and benefits.
The better regulation guidance represents the agreed Government policy on evidence and independent scrutiny, including when to seek independent scrutiny. It is clear that legislation should be accompanied by robust evidence and assessment of impact.
Bob Stewart
Forgive me. The Minister is a really good friend of mine, but he did not answer my question. I would really like to see the Government’s justification, in writing, as to why so many people have to wear face masks. Can we know what that justification is in this House?
Paul Scully
There has been a long debate about the use of face masks, both on transport and in retail. There are arguments either side—whether it gives a false sense of security or whether people touch their face when they put on or take off their mask. None the less, we have a better understanding of the transmission of the virus and the aerosol nature of its transmission. That is why the World Health Organisation has changed its advice from the beginning, when it said people do not need to have masks or face coverings, to, “Yes, you do.” Actually, we can learn from history. In the 19th century, cholera was assumed to be transmitted by air, but by greater understanding and by working through it—they did not need a regulatory impact assessment to figure it out— eventually people found that it was the water supply that was causing cholera, so they were able better to tackle that particular issue at that given time.
The Regulatory Policy Committee undertakes the verification role that provides independent oversight of the quality of the regulatory impact assessments, as well as providing the Government with external independent scrutiny of evidence and analysis supporting regulatory impact assessments of the proposals. The RPC also has a role in scrutinising the quality of post-implementation evaluations of legislation to help the Government develop the evidence base on how regulation has worked in practice.
Sir Christopher Chope
Is this body to which the Minister is referring going to look at the issue of face masks, or face coverings? In answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) he has said that there are arguments on both sides of this. In those circumstances, why are the Government taking one side and criminalising behaviour instead of trusting people to reach their own decisions on the information provided by the Government?
Paul Scully
I am sure the necessary people will have heard my hon. Friend’s call for that to be examined, but on the use of face masks, it is the same as self-isolation as a result of the test and trace system: the number of people who are having to self-isolate at any one time means that millions of us can go about our relatively normal lives by going to retail, hospitality or our places of work, which we were not able to do for so many months.
Those changes are evolving. I, like my hon. Friend, do not take any infringement of our civil liberties lightly, but this is a situation—I am not going to use the word “unprecedented” even though I just have; it has been used an unprecedented number of times—that we have never had to face before. No Government have ever had to face such a situation, so we are learning as we go along. We will not always get it right, but we have to make sure we are using the best engagement, listening to both sides of the argument, and working through as the science evolves and as we see what is in front of us in terms of human behaviour.
My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch talked about the OECD, whose latest report acknowledged that better regulation is an area of strength in the UK. It notes that the UK has been a leader in regulatory policy in general, with the early adoption of the better regulation agenda. Our ambitious agenda is reflected in the results of the OECD’s monitoring of regulatory management tools, as displayed in the “OECD Regulatory Policy Outlook 2018”, with the UK displaying the highest composite indicator score for stakeholder engagement for primary laws. Our score for secondary legislation is also significantly above the OECD average. We also had the highest composite indicator score for regulatory impact assessments across the OECD. That includes strong formal regulatory impact assessment requirements in areas such as establishing a process to identify how the achievement of the regulation’s goals will be evaluated; assessing a broad range of environmental and social impacts; and undertaking risk assessments as part of regulatory proposals. So we should be justifiably proud of our world-leading reputation in this area.
These assessments are valuable documents, and the Government should be applauded for encouraging their production and the transparent scrutiny of them, but, as with some individual impact assessments themselves, there is always room for improvement. As with the principles underpinning better regulation, we are always looking for ways to learn and improve our approach.
Sir Christopher Chope
Obviously, we are fortunate in having a bit of extra time this evening, which is great. Will the OECD be asked to opine on the effectiveness of the Government’s regulatory response to the coronavirus epidemic? For example, will the OECD be able to comment on the distinction, which my hon. Friend has made, between rules on face coverings, for which there are lots of exemptions, and rules about isolation and quarantine, for which there are no exemptions. I am afraid that there is an anomaly there.
Paul Scully
I am afraid I do not have the OECD on speed dial, but I am sure that my hon. Friend will be able to ask it to look into all these things. I am glad that we have extra time, because there is nothing I like more than to discuss regulatory impact assessments—I am afraid that Hansard does not detect sarcasm. Although I make light, it is good that we have parliamentary scrutiny of an important topic to cover.
As I say, there is a further cultural shift in Whitehall to make on such impact assessments across the board. We do have a responsibility to monitor the extent to which the laws we have passed are implemented as intended and have the expected impact. My hon. Friend is justified in raising this important issue, so that we can consider, learn and move forward together. The planning for monitoring and evaluating regulatory changes could be more effective. There is a risk that laws are passed that result in unexpected consequences or inappropriately stifle innovation. I have seen that at first hand as we have been changing and tweaking various support measures for businesses; we have had to change them so that they are supporting businesses as intended, rather than with an unintended consequence. Better planning for monitoring and evaluating will help to ensure that there is sufficient information to assess the actual state of a law’s implementation and its effects.
In conclusion, regulatory impact assessments, in themselves, have evolved into an important and valuable component of the UK’s better regulation system. The transparent publication of impact assessments has added accountability to the analytical dimensions to policy development, which has increased the amount of evidence presented alongside policy proposals, and the existence of the independent scrutiny has increased both the transparency of the process and the accountability of government. I thank my hon. Friend for raising this important issue.
Question put and agreed to.
Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote
(3 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Member eligible for proxy vote | Nominated proxy |
|---|---|
Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) | Bell Ribeiro-Addy |
Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster) | Stuart Andrew |
Tahir Ali (Birmingham, Hall Green) | Mark Tami |
Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) | Mark Tami |
Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) | Stuart Andrew |
Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) | Stuart Andrew |
Hannah Bardell (Livingston) | Patrick Grady |
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) | Stuart Andrew |
Margaret Beckett (Derby South) | Clive Efford |
Scott Benton (Blackpool South) | Stuart Andrew |
Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) | Stuart Andrew |
Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) | Stuart Andrew |
Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) | Mark Tami |
Mhairi Black (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) | Patrick Grady |
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) | Stuart Andrew |
Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) | Patrick Grady |
Crispin Blunt (Reigate) | Stuart Andrew |
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) | Stuart Andrew |
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) | Stuart Andrew |
Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) | Mark Tami |
Richard Burgon (Leeds East) | Zarah Sultana |
Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) | Stuart Andrew |
Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) | Chris Elmore |
Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton) | Mark Tami |
Sir William Cash (Stone) | Leo Docherty |
Sarah Champion (Rotherham) | Mark Tami |
Douglas Chapman (Dunfermline and West Fife) | Patrick Grady |
Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) | Stuart Andrew |
Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) | Mark Tami |
Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde) | Patrick Grady |
Mr Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) | Alex Burghart |
Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) | Mark Tami |
Angela Crawley (Lanark and Hamilton East) | Patrick Grady |
Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) | Mark Tami |
Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) | Caroline Nokes |
Janet Daby (Lewisham East) | Mark Tami |
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) | Chris Evans |
Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) | Mark Tami |
Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) | Stuart Andrew |
Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) | Patrick Grady |
Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) | Rachel Hopkins |
Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) | Chris Elmore |
Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) | Patrick Grady |
Allan Dorans (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) | Patrick Grady |
Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) | Stuart Andrew |
Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) | Gagan Mohindra |
Philip Dunne (Ludlow) | Jeremy Hunt |
Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) | Stuart Andrew |
Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) | Mark Tami |
Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) | Stuart Andrew |
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) | Stuart Andrew |
Stephen Farry (North Down) | Alistair Carmichael |
Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) | Patrick Grady |
Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Deptford) | Mark Tami |
George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) | Theo Clarke |
Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) | Stuart Andrew |
Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) | Stuart Andrew |
Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) | Caroline Nokes |
Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) | Mark Tami |
Dame Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) | Stuart Andrew |
Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) | Mark Tami |
Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) | Stuart Andrew |
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) | Patrick Grady |
Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) | Patrick Grady |
Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) | Mark Tami |
Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) | Mark Fletcher |
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) | Mark Tami |
Robert Halfon (Harlow) | Lucy Allan |
Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) | Mark Tami |
Claire Hanna (Belfast South) | Liz Saville Roberts |
Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) | Mark Tami |
Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) | Stuart Andrew |
Sir Mark Hendrick (Preston) | Mark Tami |
Mike Hill (Hartlepool) | Mark Tami |
Simon Hoare (North Dorset) | Fay Jones |
Wera Hobhouse (Bath) | Alistair Carmichael |
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) | Mark Tami |
Adam Holloway (Gravesham) | Maria Caulfield |
Sir George Howarth (Knowsley) | Mark Tami |
Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and The Border) | Stuart Andrew |
Imran Hussain (Bradford East) | Judith Cummins |
Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) | Mark Tami |
Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North East Hampshire) | Stuart Andrew |
Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) | Stuart Andrew |
Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) | Mark Tami |
Gillian Keegan (Chichester) | Bim Afolami |
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) | Mark Tami |
Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) | Mark Tami |
Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) | Stuart Andrew |
Julian Knight (Solihull) | Stuart Andrew |
John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) | Stuart Andrew |
Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) | Mary Kelly Foy |
Chris Law (Dundee West) | Patrick Grady |
Clive Lewis (Norwich South) | Rosie Duffield |
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) | Stuart Andrew |
Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) | Mark Tami |
Julia Lopez (Hornchurch and Upminster) | Lee Rowley |
Mr Jonathan Lord (Woking) | Stuart Andrew |
Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) | Patrick Grady |
Rachael Maskell (York Central) | Mark Tami |
Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln) | Stuart Andrew |
Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) | Patrick Grady |
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) | Cat Smith |
Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) | Patrick Grady |
John Mc Nally (Falkirk) | Patrick Grady |
Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) | Stuart Andrew |
Ian Mearns (Gateshead) | Mark Tami |
Johnny Mercer (Plymouth, Moor View) | Stuart Andrew |
Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) | Stuart Andrew |
Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) | Patrick Grady |
Jessica Morden (Newport East) | Mark Tami |
David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) | Stuart Andrew |
David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale) | Stuart Andrew |
James Murray (Ealing North) | Mark Tami |
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) | Mark Tami |
Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) | Patrick Grady |
John Nicolson (Ochil and South Perthshire) | Patrick Grady |
Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) | Rebecca Harris |
Brendan O’Hara (Argyll and Bute) | Patrick Grady |
Guy Opperman (Hexham) | Stuart Andrew |
Kate Osamor (Edmonton) | Nadia Whittome |
Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) | Mark Tami |
Dr Dan Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) | Peter Aldous |
Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) | Mark Tami |
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) | Mark Tami |
Christina Rees (Neath) | Mark Tami |
Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West and Penge) | Mark Tami |
Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) | David Rutley |
Naz Shah (Bradford West) | Mark Tami |
Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) | Mark Tami |
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) | Mark Tami |
Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) | Patrick Grady |
Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) | Mark Tami |
Jo Stevens (Cardiff Glasgow Central) | Mark Tami |
Sir Gary Streeter (South West Devon) | Stuart Andrew |
Julian Sturdy (York Outer) | Stuart Andrew |
Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) | Patrick Grady |
Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) | Mark Tami |
Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) | Charlotte Nichols |
Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) | Olivia Blake |
Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) | Huw Merriman |
Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) | Mark Tami |
Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) | Patrick Grady |
Hywel Williams (Arfon) | Ben Lake |
Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) | Mark Tami |
Written Statements
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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Wylfa Newydd Nuclear Power Station Energy Infrastructure Project
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth (Kwasi Kwarteng)
This statement concerns an application made by Horizon Nuclear Power Limited under the Planning Act 2008 for development consent for the construction and operation of a new nuclear power station and associated infrastructure at Wylfa Head on the Isle of Anglesey.
Under section 107(1) of the Planning Act 2008, the Secretary of State must make a decision on an application within three months of receipt of the examining authority’s report unless exercising the power under section 107(3) to set a new deadline. Where a new deadline is set, the Secretary of State must make a statement to Parliament to announce it. The deadline for the decision on the proposed Wylfa Newydd (Nuclear Generating Station) Order application was 23 October 2019, but that deadline was reset to 31 March 2020 to allow further information in respect of environmental effects and other outstanding issues to be provided and considered.
Following initial analysis of the further information which has now been provided, the Secretary of State has concluded that an additional period of time is required in order to complete his consideration in respect of environmental effects and other issues which were outstanding following the examination. It is not anticipated that any further information will be required.
The Secretary of State has set a new deadline for deciding the application of 30 September 2020. The decision to set the new deadline for the application is without prejudice to the Secretary of State’s decision on whether to grant or refuse development consent.
[HCWS430]
OECD Report of International Regulatory Co-operation in the UK
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)
My right hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Minister for Climate Change and Corporate Responsibility) Lord Callanan has today made the following statement:
I am today publishing the Government response to a review by the Organisation of Economic Co-Operation and Development (OECD) into the UK’s international regulatory co-operation practices. This includes launching a call for evidence targeted at UK regulators, standard bodies and industry groups to understand their priorities for greater regulatory co-operation, and how the Government can help support and leverage their engagement in support of the UK’s wider national interest.
International regulatory co-operation (IRC) is about understanding the implications of regulation beyond national borders. It provides an important opportunity for countries to adapt their regulations to the rapidly evolving needs of a globalised world and to influence the regulation of others. In practical terms, this involves shaping and complying with international agreements, utilising international evidence and collaborating with international partners when designing and enforcing regulations.
For the UK, consideration of IRC is increasingly important given we are at a critical juncture for the country and our regulatory policy. We are seeking to build on our global ambitions now that the UK has left the European Union and is taking back regulatory competencies. In tandem, we are developing our own independent trade policy for the first time in almost fifty years. The emergence of new technologies, which are global in their scale and implications, also means that regulation is more international than ever. Effective regulation in these technologies underpinned by international co-operation enables consistent enforcement across borders and opens up trade opportunities by the reduction in non-tariff barriers.
In light of this, in 2018 the Government invited the OECD—as the leading authority on regulatory policy—to conduct a review into the UK’s IRC practices. The resulting OECD report finds that there is no overarching, cross-Government strategic vision and systematic practices in place in relation to IRC. And while there are some examples of effective regulatory co-operation initiatives being undertaken by our world-renowned regulators, overall, this is sporadic and sector specific.
The report makes 25 recommendations to address this across three broad categories which are: building a holistic IRC vision, a strategy and political leadership for IRC in the UK; embedding IRC more systemically in regulatory management tools; and increasing awareness and understanding about IRC across departments and regulators.
The document I am publishing today “International Regulatory Cooperation for a Global Britain”, sets out our response to these recommendations. It welcomes the OECD’s report and sets out the programme of work my Department will be undertaking to drive a systematic focus on IRC across Government and regulators by:
developing a whole-of-Government international regulatory co-operation strategy, which sets out the policies, tools and respective roles of different departments and regulators in facilitating this;
embedding international regulatory co-operation considerations within the better regulation framework and other government guidance;
developing specific tools and guidance to policy makers and regulators on how to conduct international regulatory co-operation; and
establishing networks to convene international policy professionals from across government and regulators share experience and best practice on international regulatory co-operation.
The call for evidence we are launching as part of this response aims to understand where regulators, standards bodies and industry groups already engaged in IRC, their priorities for where they would like to see greater IRC and how the Government can aid them identify and pursue opportunities.
The UK has a proud tradition of better regulation in ensuring that regulation is proportionate, targeted, transparent, accountable and consistent. Adopting a more international approach continues this by helping to reduce regulatory burdens on our exporting businesses and ensuring more effective regulatory outcomes for society. IRC will play a critical role in delivering on the Government vision of a global Britain that is a responsible international actor playing a constructive role in tackling issues of collective global responsibility, and a champion of free trade that seeks to counter the growing proliferation of non-tariff barriers.
The results of the call for evidence will be used to inform the development of the Government international regulatory co-operation strategy to be published at a future date, on which I will update the House.
[HCWS429]
List of Ministerial Responsibilities
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Chloe Smith)
As part of the Government’s ongoing commitment to transparency and accountability, I am pleased to announce that the Government have published the list of ministerial responsibilities document on gov.uk. I will today be placing copies in the library of both Houses.
The list includes details of ministerial Departments, the Ministers within ministerial Departments, the private offices of all the Ministers and the Executive agencies within each Department.
[HCWS434]
Biennial Report of the National DNA Database Strategy Board
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
I am pleased to announce that I am, today, publishing the annual report of the National DNA Database Strategy Board for 2018 to 2020. This report covers the National Fingerprints Database and the National DNA Database (NDNAD).
The strategy board chair, Assistant Chief Constable Ben Snuggs, has presented the annual report of the National DNA Database to the Home Secretary. Publication of the report is a statutory requirement under section 63AB(7) of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 as inserted by section 24 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.
The report shows the important contribution that the NDNAD and the National Fingerprint Databases (policing collections) make to supporting policing and solving crimes. I am grateful to the strategy board for their commitment to fulfilling their statutory functions.
The report is today being laid before the House and copies will be available from the Vote Office.
[HCWS431]
Contingencies Fund Advance: the Parliamentary Works Sponsor Body
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (representing the House of Commons Commission)
In April 2020, the Commissions of both Houses agreed funding for the restoration and renewal programme for April to June 2020 of £27,500,000 which was laid before the House of Commons on 4 May as the initial Main Estimate for 2020-21. In June, the Commissions of both Houses agreed funding for the programme for July 2020 to March 2021 of £98,700,000 which will be laid before the House of Commons as a Supplementary Estimate for 2020-21 during the current financial year. Ahead of the Supplementary Estimates being voted on towards the end of the 2020-21 financial year, a cash advance has been sought from HM Treasury in order to enable the continued operation of the programme.
Parliamentary approval for additional resources of £96,230,000 and capital of £2,470,000 will be sought in a Supplementary Estimate for the Parliamentary Works Sponsor Body. Pending that approval, urgent expenditure estimated at £98,700,000 will be met by repayable cash advances from the contingencies fund.
[HCWS432]
Independent Review of Supervision of Terrorism and Terrorism-risk Offenders
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Philp)
Last November Usman Khan brutally murdered Saskia Jones and Jack Merritt before being shot dead by police on London Bridge. Khan was being supervised by the National Probation Service (NPS) on a post-release licence following a number of years in prison for terrorist offences. He was subject to Multi-Agency Public Protection Arrangements (MAPPA), where the NPS, prisons and police work together with other agencies, including, when it comes to terrorist offenders, the security services to assess and manage the risk presented by known dangerous offenders.
Protecting the public from harm is the first duty of any government, and police, prison, probation and intelligence officers work tirelessly to keep our country safe. However, they can only manage and reduce the risk posed by dangerous individuals, it can never be eliminated entirely. Some offenders will always be determined to sow terror, despite all the efforts made to divert them from extremism.
It is, therefore, imperative that we seize every opportunity to improve our counter-terrorism efforts. That is why, as part of our response to the London Bridge attack, the government asked Jonathan Hall QC, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, to review the effectiveness of MAPPA when it comes to managing terrorist offenders and other offenders who may pose a terror risk. The terms of reference were published in January:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/multi-agency-public-protection-arrangements-review/terms-of-reference-independent-review-of-the-statutory-multi-agency-public-protection-arrangements
The review includes an annex assessing the tools available to manage radicalised offenders with serious mental health needs.
The importance of this review was further highlighted by the horrific attack in Streatham in February in which two people were stabbed. Thankfully, their lives were saved by the rapid work of the emergency services, and the attacker, Sudesh Amman, was shot dead before he could inflict more harm. He, too, was a convicted terrorist subject to MAPPA management and had recently left prison.
Jonathan Hall’s review did not consider the circumstances that led up to these attacks - separate reviews are still under way.
Jonathan Hall found that MAPPA is a well-established process and did not conclude that wholesale change is necessary. He has made a number of recommendations on how the management of terrorists can be improved and the government, police and prison and probation service have been working on changes in line with many of them. For example, we are already legislating to require terrorist offenders to undergo polygraph testing; in addition, we are also legislating so that other offenders can have their crimes identified as terror-related, even if not terror offences as set out in law.
We are also establishing a division of specialist staff in the NPS to manage terrorist risk offenders, bringing together counter-terrorism expertise in one place and strengthening its work with the police and security services.
This is on top of our wider efforts to tackle terrorism:
Increasing funding for Counter-Terrorism Police by 10% this year to over £900 million.
Doubling the number of probation staff who supervise terrorist offenders.
Strengthening the tools used to monitor and manage extremist individuals, including Terrorist Prevention and Investigation Measures and Serious Crime Prevention Orders.
Ensuring terrorists spend longer in prison, including by creating a minimum 14-year jail term for those convicted of serious terror offences.
We are considering the remainder of Jonathan Hall’s recommendations and hope to set out our response shortly. The full report has been published here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/multi-agency-public-protection-arrangements-review
[HCWS435]
Kickstart Scheme
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Dr Thérèse Coffey)
Today we are launching the kick-start scheme, which was announced by the Chancellor as part of our plan for jobs in his statement on 8 July. This £2 billion programme will fund the direct creation of additional jobs focused on young people at risk of long-term unemployment to improve their chances of progressing to find long-term, sustainable work.
As we build back our economy and return to work we know that for many young people a lack of work experience can be a barrier to taking that first step on the jobs’ ladder. That is why we are taking steps to help young people gain experience through the kick-start scheme and a foothold in the world of work.
The scheme is open to employers from across the private, public and voluntary sectors. Through the scheme, employers will be able to access a large pool of young people with lots to offer, ready for an opportunity. Organisations of all sizes are encouraged to participate. Organisations with a small number of placements will be expected to bid through intermediaries or umbrella organisations like local enterprise partnerships, business trade associations or local Government, ensuring the necessary support is in place to enable them to deliver placements effectively.
Employers will need to show that these are additional jobs and that the kick-start role will provide the experience and support a young person needs to improve their chances of permanent employment. People will be referred through the Jobcentre Plus network. Employers will be able to interview candidates for the roles they offer.
Funding available for each job will cover the relevant national minimum wage (NMW) rate for 25 hours a week, plus the associated employer National Insurance contributions, and employer minimum automatic enrolment contributions. It will also include £1,500 for start-up and wraparound support for people of a kick-start placement.
Today we are calling for employers to bid to be involved in the scheme, with the first job placements expected to begin in November. The bid application and information to support employers will be available online through www.gov.uk/kickstart.
[HCWS433]
Grand Committee
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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Arrangement of Business
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) (Con)
My Lords, welcome to this first Hybrid Grand Committee, which will now begin. Some Members are here in person, respecting social distancing, while others are participating remotely, but all Members will be treated equally. I must ask Members in the room to wear a face covering except when seated at their desk, to speak sitting down and to wipe down their desk, chair and any other touch points before and after use. If the capacity of the Committee Room is exceeded or other safety requirements are breached, I will adjourn the Committee immediately. If there is a Division in the House, the Committee will adjourn for five minutes.
The time limit for the debate on the Industrial Training Levy (Engineering Construction Industry Training Board) Order 2020 is one hour.
Industrial Training Levy (Engineering Construction Industry Training Board) Order 2020
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Berridge
That the Grand Committee do consider the Industrial Training Levy (Engineering Construction Industry Training Board) Order 2020.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education and Department for International Trade (Baroness Berridge) (Con)
My Lords, engineering construction as a label is not easily understood, but as the country responds to and recovers from the impact of Covid-19, there can be no doubt about how reliant we are on a skilled engineering workforce.
I ask your Lordships’ House to consider how different our lives would have been in recent months without the electricity, oil, gas and nuclear industries being able to cope with the shifts in demand on power supply; without access to clean, healthy water systems; or without the right infrastructure to enable the food industry to meet an unprecedented demand from the public—and, critically, to consider how much our hopes lie with the pharmaceutical industry being able to identify and roll out a vaccine to this terrible virus. All this is enabled by the engineering construction sector.
As noble Lords know, this House passed legislation only last year to ensure that Britain meets the Committee on Climate Change’s ambitious target to reduce emissions to net zero by 2050. These challenges, whether brought about by Covid, climate change or clean growth, mean that investment in skills and training and supporting young people into jobs in engineering construction are now more important than ever. This goes to the heart of the Engineering Construction Industry Training Board, known as the ECITB. The order before your Lordships will enable the ECITB to continue to play its role in securing and maintaining a sufficient supply of highly skilled labour in the engineering construction industry.
Established in 1964, the ECITB—then named the Engineering Industry Training Board—is industry led and is there to ensure that the engineering construction industry has a highly skilled workforce. It provides targeted training grants to employers to enable workers to access and operate safely on engineering construction sites, drive up skill levels and incentivise training that would otherwise not take place. It also supports strategic initiatives to maintain vital skills in the industry and create a pipeline of skilled workers.
The ECITB is responsive to the needs of the engineering construction industry. During lockdown, it swiftly introduced a package of support measures including a scheme to retain apprentices and graduates and a new scholarship to support new entrants. Over the coming three-year levy period, the ECITB expects to raise around £80 million, to be invested in skills training. The latest available figures show that in 2018, 99.4% of the levy raised went directly into supporting training.
Turning to the detail, I wish to thank the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee for considering this draft order. The key change from the previous 2017 levy order is an increase in the levy rate for offsite employees. These offsite workers are defined by the geographical location of their work, which is mainly at a distance from an engineering construction site such as a chemical works or power station.
The offsite rate is increasing to reflect the substantial growth in demand for training grants for offsite workers in recent years. Last year, offsite training took out almost 25% of total grant expenditure, yet paid in only 13% of the total raised. The ECITB considers that the demand for offsite training is likely to increase further still as companies harness opportunities from new technologies and more work is conducted remotely. This increase from 0.14% to 0.33% of an employer’s annual payments to workers for services is being phased in over the three-year period of this levy order to minimise its impact on employers. Noble Lords will be reassured to learn that the sector affected gave overwhelming support for the increase. The rationale for a fairer split between who contributes to the pot and who can take from it is clear.
This order also recognises that SMEs are a critical part of the engineering industry but at the same time are less likely to have an in-house training budget. As such, it retains the exemption thresholds from the 2017 levy order, which ensure that smaller engineering construction firms can access the support that the ECITB provides without having to contribute financially. The ECITB expects that around 25% of all establishments within the scope of the levy will be exempted from payment.
The ECITB has consulted industry on the levy proposals via its consensus process. Consensus consists of two tests: both the majority who pay the levy and those who pay more than half the levy raised must agree to the proposals. I assure noble Lords that both tests have been overwhelmingly met. To summarise, 75% of all companies in scope of paying the levy, who together are likely to pay 87% of the value of the levy, voted in favour of the proposals before us. This is testament to the value in which the ECITB is held by industry and the recognition that there is a long-term skills challenge, which can be addressed only through collective action.
This order will enable the ECITB to continue to carry out its vital training responsibilities. As the country responds to the Covid-19 pandemic, this is now more important than ever. I beg to move.
Lord Addington (LD)
My Lords, when we look at something that deals with training across such a wide field, the obvious question that comes to mind is: how have the groups the Government are supporting been set? We need a bit more of an idea about the exact criteria for where you get the support from. That would help us in future.
Also, if you are going across these sectors, when will we decide how to encourage the necessary people in? The noble Baroness has already expanded my knowledge of this slightly by suggesting that we interact with both apprenticeships and graduates. There cannot be many other bodies doing that degree of consultation and trying to bring people into the construction sector. It is quite reassuring to hear that, and to hear that we are not only training people but encouraging them to work in the field and telling them how to access training.
Another steady subject of mine when it comes to these issues is, what about people with special educational needs or other disabilities? How are we encouraging them to get involved? The range of skills that has been suggested here is mind-blowing, going from the most basic forms of apprenticeship to postgraduate qualification and bringing them together. Presumably, that includes people training in colleges. A huge number of people can take on the training, provided they get over the initial hurdle.
I declare my interest—I did not do so earlier—as the president of the British Dyslexia Association, as someone who is dyslexic and as someone who uses technology to enable them to write more easily; I certainly use it all the time. How are we working these things to make sure that we get the right people through? We have a skills shortage in these places. What is the current outreach capacity? There are other groups that you will want to look at, but are you looking at the people who have a problem not with the initiation or even considering it but with taking the exam?
Here, a wide-ranging body has a very good opportunity to set an example by saying, “This is what you can do practically to go on and do this, using the flexibility of examination boards and institutions.” We often have a problem with one small aspect of this training: the English language. I remember somebody in apprenticeships training saying, “Oh, don’t worry about that, I wouldn’t pass the English language test”—and they were doing the training. There are certain arbitrary barriers. What are we doing to make sure that we get the right people into these positions? Here, the levy is supporting an organisation that is perfectly placed to undertake some of this work. It would be interesting to know whether this is being considered.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) (Con)
I now call the next speaker, the noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) (Con)
Can you unmute, Lord Bourne?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con) [V]
I think that is it. I apologise; I thought I was going to be unmuted.
My Lords, I first thank the Minister for setting out the background of the draft industrial training levy order. I am certainly not, in principle, against employers contributing via a levy, but I have several concerns about the background to the order.
The first matter that strikes me is that this really seems to come from a different, pre-Covid world. For example, the consultation exercise was carried out by the Engineering Construction Industry Training Board between July and October last year. The situation facing the country and industry now is massively and dauntingly different from then.
The questions I wish to ask are not on the micro-aspects of the order itself but on what I believe is the massive leap of imagination needed by the Government, and awesome extension of ambition, in relation to apprenticeships in general. We face a position now where many apprentices have not, for understandable reasons, been getting the work experience that they normally would have received and which they, and we, expected. Many people have of course been furloughed, and many more, alas, will lose their jobs. Against this background, we really need to address the situation we are facing in relation to apprenticeships, rather than looking at a bit of a mouse of a measure of what is really needed.
I believe that we need an apprenticeship guarantee scheme. This has been echoed in the other place by Robert Halfon, the chair of the Education Committee and the right honourable Member for Harlow. The Prime Minister has committed to look at this; he has said that this is something we should be doing, and I agree. I would like to hear from the Minister how far down this road we now are, because that was said in June. What progress are we making on this?
As a nation, we had made some progress on apprenticeships over the last few years, though that had stalled a little bit, even pre-Covid. We need to ensure that we do something for some of the disadvantaged youngsters who will fall behind because of the education stutters—rather more than stutters, to be honest—that we have experienced. What are we doing in relation to that? That has got to be done against the backdrop of an apprenticeship guarantee scheme, to help the people who will suffer because of the economic consequences of the pandemic. The Chancellor has moved very nimbly on the furlough scheme, but we need to address the education gap and the apprenticeship problems that we face.
The apprenticeship scheme will need to be backed up with infrastructure projects—particularly green projects—on a nationwide basis, to give support to the apprenticeships guarantee that we would bring in. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Hain, will have something to say on this in relation to, for example, the Severn barrage tidal lagoon project. These are the things which will be needed to provide training for our youngsters for the future, so that we can address our productivity gap and some of the real problems and challenges that we face. This will certainly involve the public sector playing its part. Some rebalancing of the levy may be needed to ensure that we are getting the appropriate help for the more disadvantaged youngsters who have suffered; they really will suffer through this crisis if we do not make some real efforts to address these problems.
These are the issues I wish to raise against the backdrop of the order. As I say, I have no particular problem with the order, but it does not begin to address the scale of the problem that we have, as I am sure the Minister will acknowledge. I will not be opposing the order, but I certainly think we need to come up with some bolder solutions. It would be good to hear from the Minister how she sees that going forward.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) (Con)
Before calling the next speaker, the noble Lord, Lord Hain, I would like to clarify that all speakers will have seven minutes, not six minutes as was indicated earlier, apart from the Minister, who will have 10 minutes at the end. I now call the noble Lord, Lord Hain.
Lord Hain (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I very much agree with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, especially on the vital necessity for new skills on green projects. Wales, of course, has many to offer, not least the Severn barrage, which is capable of harnessing the enormous power of the Severn estuary, but also the tidal lagoons and other forms of tidal power and marine energy. Anglesey has developed a marvellous strategy as an energy island. I hope that the skills needed for that will be supported by the Government in the UK, by providing the funding to the Welsh Government. I also welcome the Minister’s acknowledgement at the outset of the vital role of key engineering workers in keeping going the essential infrastructure of the country during the Covid lockdown.
Although the Explanatory Memorandum is candid about the policy background to the order, it is hardly comprehensive in its coverage and it is short on significant detail. It is indeed true that industrial training boards have operated in the UK since 1964—since March 1964, in fact, because industrial training boards were originally set up in the dog days of Alec Douglas-Home’s Conservative Government.
Today’s Tories seem shy about acknowledging one of their party’s more important initiatives aimed at tackling UK skills shortages. We know why: the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, put 16 of the 23 industrial training boards to the sword nearly 40 years ago. The Engineering Construction Industry Training Board was one of the few that survived his cull. It also survived a more recent review, in 2017, by shrinking its board and taking the nonsensical step of cutting its training levy.
There are several reasons why the Engineering Construction Industry Training Board has lived on where others have been sacrificed; some are identified in the Explanatory Memorandum, and others are acknowledged in the board’s 2019 annual report. The overwhelming reason is market failure, which Ministers never seem willing to acknowledge. There are few incentives for individual employers to train, since the work is often short-term and the labour force highly mobile. This means that long-term skills needs get overlooked, and these are vital, in engineering especially. The board is right to claim that it helps to make the labour market in engineering construction more efficient and more effective.
The board’s chair, Lynda Armstrong, is also right that it faces an emerging skills shortfall as an ageing workforce retires. The 137% rise in the number of recruits starting apprenticeships in 2018—to 1,171—is a positive development, and I welcome the priority that the board is attaching to promoting the recruitment of a more diverse workforce.
I also welcome the fact that the board has an advisory council that includes trade unions and not just employers, trade associations and other stakeholders. However, I note that this falls a long way short of the provision made in the Industrial Training Act 1964 for equal numbers of representatives of employers and employees. Perhaps the Minister will say something about that.
The Engineering Construction Industry Training Board is an example of successful intervention that the Government are reluctant to build upon in other industries. It is a love-child that the Government are too embarrassed to acknowledge openly. Its very success highlights the discomfort that the Tory party feels when its free market ideology comes up against the practical consequences of free market failure. I hope—although I fear my expectations are very low indeed—that the Government will take heed of this story and begin to invest properly in the vital skills we need for the future. They have not done so for more than 10 years.
With not only the green projects of which the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, spoke, but with robotics and artificial intelligence coming up fast, surely the Minister must agree that the Government should start investing massively in skills now, or see Britain continuing to fall behind badly on productivity and the new jobs of the future.
Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)
My Lords, this order is not contentious, but it is worthy of some discussion. The construction industry is alone in continuing a training levy, as the noble Lord, Lord Hain, just set out. Some years ago, industry training boards were transformed from statutory to non-statutory bodies, and as the Minister stated, the Construction Industry Training Board, or CITB, and the Engineering Construction Industry Training Board, or ECITB, retained their statutory status and powers. They make annual proposals for the levy for their respective industries. The Secretary of State, having been satisfied that the proposed levies meet the statutory criteria, lays orders before Parliament to give effect to the proposals. This is the routine order we are now considering. The ECITB training levy is specific to the engineering construction industry. The ECITB determines how the money is invested in training and other projects for the benefit of the sector and is a registered charity. There might be advantages in other industries having such well-regulated training requirements.
However, issues now arise with the introduction of the apprenticeship levy. I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, said. Employers with a pay bill of more than £3 million per fiscal year relating to employed labour have been required to pay the apprenticeship levy since April 2017. This payment is made to HMRC through the PAYE process and is in addition to any industrial training levy charged by the ECITB. The apprenticeship levy is ring-fenced to support apprenticeships in England across all sectors and occupations. However, we know there have been many issues with this levy, with it being applied to programmes of learning which could in no way be described as apprenticeships, such as master’s degrees and other advanced learning. In my book, an apprentice is somebody who is starting out on their career. Employers have long asked to be able to use the levy for a wide range of training, not just apprenticeships. Does the Minister have any update for us on whether that change might happen?
As we have said before, the apprenticeship levy system means that the electrical and construction industries have a double bill of training levies. Can the Minister say whether this is contentious in the industry? What discussions are held to ensure that those in the engineering and construction industries are happy to pay twice for training in this way? We know that the ECITB consults widely and we hope that it would pick up such concerns.
We know that the construction industry’s workforce is around only 2% female, yet women who are practitioners can earn an excellent living and enjoy their work. What efforts are the Government making to attract more women and girls into construction? How, for instance, does careers advice and guidance in primary schools, as well as in secondary schools, portray this industry as attractive and accessible to all? The image of construction is of burly men with hods in muddy fields, and of engineers with spanners and greasy overalls. The reality is so very different. My daughter was an oil engineer for a number of years, yet she never had greasy overalls. Early in her career, she was the most senior woman at Esso’s refinery, which said less about her meteoric career and more about how very few women there were at the refinery—yet most of the jobs there could equally have been done by men or women.
The Prime Minister has expressed his intention to “build, build, build”, but without qualified builders, this is a hollow promise. Vocational, practical, technical education should be right at the heart of the political agenda, yet this Government have driven a coach and horses through long-standing, well-understood, highly-respected vocational qualifications by bringing in the untried, untested and flawed T-levels. I declare an interest as a vice-president of City & Guilds, an organisation for which I worked for 20 years. I am very well aware of the value of and respect for City & Guilds qualifications, and indeed of BTECs, which are highly regarded but are sidelined by curious, non-expert decisions with this new qualification. How do the Government hope to encourage and train construction workers when they are set on destroying the very training and qualifications which have been the bedrock for generations?
A further aspect of the apprenticeship levy is that Liberal Democrats would seek to expand its scope to a wider skills and training levy and to add flexibility that works for employers and trainees. While keeping the contribution at 0.5%, we would use the cash raised not just for apprenticeships but for a wider training programme, and ensure that 25% of the funds raised would go into a social mobility fund, which we would use to feed into the regions and the cold spots and to make sure that we have diverse apprenticeships in the parts of the country and the sectors where they are most needed.
The electrical and construction industries are vital to our economic revival. As we agree this order—because we have no other option—can we keep in mind the vital importance of explaining and selling these exciting industries to children and adults? If we continue the obsession with academic qualifications and achievement, we shall never be able to restore the economy as the country needs.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for the clear and concise manner in which she laid out this statutory instrument and what it seeks to achieve. The Opposition welcome the introduction of the latest version of the Engineering Construction Industry Training Board levy.
The levy has gained the status of a most venerable instrument. As my noble friend Lord Hain, an esteemed historian, said, it was first introduced in 1964, at a time when the UK was ending 13 years of Tory misrule by welcoming the Government of Harold Wilson and the white-hot heat of the technological revolution. The levy that we are considering today has certainly stood the test of time, although, as my noble friend Lord Hain also highlighted, the representation on the board unfortunately has not.
In a previous life, I was a trade union official involved in negotiations in the manufacturing sector. That involved regular dealings with some of the various industrial training boards then in existence. From memory, there were in excess of 20, until being significantly reduced in number by the Industrial Training Act 1982 —the legislation under which this order is issued. Today, there are just three boards, each of which is a non-departmental public body sponsored by the Department for Education, and thus accountable to Parliament.
The ECITB website reveals, to my surprise, the importance of the sector. It directly supports around 190,000 jobs and accounts for more than one-fifth of the total UK economy. The board raises its funds through training levies, and we learn from the Explanatory Memorandum to this order that, in 2019, the ECITB made grants of just under £20 million to subsidise employers’ training costs. Inevitably, that figure will be substantially lower this year, and it would be helpful if the Minister could indicate what estimate the ECITB has made to her officials about what it expects it to be.
Given the effects of the pandemic, does the Minister know whether the ECITB intends to return or retain levies paid this year that are currently unable to be used for training purposes? If the latter, does it intend to reduce the amount taken from employers in levy payments in 2021 as a consequence?
The annual priorities letter sent to the board by the predecessor of the noble Baroness in January this year—it now seems a lifetime away—states:
“The ECITB has a vital role in ensuring that our country has the technical skills needed to deliver critical infrastructure and energy projects.”
The letter set out the Government’s six priorities for the ECITB for the current year. While all are important—even more so because of the pandemic—the one that stood out for me was this:
“Help the industry to tackle current and future skills issues, with a primary focus on supporting employers to recruit a diverse and inclusive workforce, engage with the apprenticeships programme and to develop the training that best meets their needs, supporting the implementation of the new engineering and manufacturing T levels and the provision of industry placements.”
I emphasise that priority because it links to the need to ensure that more young people, particularly females, understand the importance of the engineering construction sector and the fact that it offers sustainable and well-paid employment, and embrace the STEM subjects at school to enable them to follow that path. There remains a serious and distinct market failure in the development of skills in the construction industry as a whole, something that stems in part from the fact that trading conditions, incentives and culture do not, it seems, lead to a sufficient level of investment in skills by employers. That is not by any means a failing restricted to the construction sector, but the ECITB also has a vital role in providing support in reskilling and upskilling, a factor that will increase in importance after the break with the European Union.
The introduction of the apprenticeship levy in 2017 was a clear sign that the Government accepted that employers would not in sufficient numbers invest in skills of their own volition but required a firm hand on their shoulder to encourage them to do so. As other noble Lords have said, that levy has not yet been as successful as many had hoped, but I believe that no purpose is served by criticising an initiative that is a positive step and ultimately will raise significantly the number of apprenticeships undertaken. The question now is how long that will take, with so much of industry in difficulty.
There is no mention in the Explanatory Memorandum of how the ECITB levy interacts with the apprenticeship levy. There are many apprentices in the engineering construction sector whose employers are being asked to pay two training levies, albeit that they are differently focused. Given that in general many apprenticeships are taken up by people aged 25 and above, it is perhaps surprising that greater resistance from employers in engineering construction is not evident. The Explanatory Memorandum tells us that 25% of employers registered their opposition to the levy in the ECITB’s consultation but gives no hint as to the reasons for that sizeable minority position. On a point touched on by the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, can the Minister say whether being asked to pay two levies was an issue in the sector?
The so-called consensus process to which the Minister referred—it is the name given to the way in which the board seeks the industry’s approval for its proposed levy rates—gained acceptance for the existing levy rate being maintained for onsite employees but being raised on a phased basis over three years for offsite employees. I was going to ask the Minister about this, so I was glad that she explained in her opening remarks why such differential rates are deemed appropriate.
The consultation demonstrates that engineering construction employers strongly support the levy, clearly valuing the payback from their contributions. I wish both the organisation and the industry that it represents well and I look forward to hearing of progress in the development of the skills that are required when Parliament comes to consider the effectiveness of the levy from this year until 2022.
If I may, I should like to finish by paying tribute to my noble friend Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan, who very sadly passed away last week. I feel it appropriate to do so here because my noble friend campaigned long and hard against the construction industry’s failure to pay subcontractors on time, too often causing the bankruptcy of small companies. The noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, argued for the establishment of a retention fund to avoid such events, but to no avail. Such a scheme would give subcontractors a measure of security and provide more security in the industry and I hope that it will soon be established, forming, as it would, a fitting tribute to a fine man and a good friend to so many.
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this debate today and will endeavour to answer many of the questions that have been raised. First, I join the noble Lord in his tribute to the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, recognising his contribution to the sector. I extend my sympathies.
The noble Lord, Lord Addington, asked how we are encouraging people into this industry, specifically those with special educational needs. I thank the noble Lord for the question. The industry training boards exist in specific industries and are mainly funded by statutory levies on employers in their sectors. Employment in the engineering construction sector is linked to the project life cycle, which means that there is a high number of temporary workers and a lot of movement between employers. As a result, the need for high-level skills is not necessarily met in the training on a particular job, so the cost can be high for employers. Many of the core engineering skills are transferrable in the sector. I will unfortunately have to repeat this to the noble Lord, Lord Addington, as he will be in receipt of a second letter this afternoon from the chair of the ECITB on these specific issues. The ECITB is bound by the equality duties, so it is under an obligation to ensure that a diversity of people is recruited into the sector.
My noble friend Lord Bourne asked whether the ECITB is of another world. It is not. It has shown itself to be valuable, as was demonstrated when it was reviewed in 2017, when the decision was made to retain it. Other options were looked at, but it was seen that the payment of the levy was still supported and was dealing with an issue across the sector. The Covid pandemic poses particular challenges for employers and learners across the sector, so we would argue that the levy is more important than ever in ensuring resilience and the entry into and retainment of people in the sector. We know that the ECITB is firmly committed to doing all that it can to ensure that vital skills are retained in the sector, despite the ups and downs of particular projects.
On apprenticeships, I assure my noble friend Lord Bourne that a redundancy service has been launched, as we recognise that the Covid pandemic has affected them. He will be aware that specific funding of £1,500 per apprenticeship and £2,000 for any apprenticeship for people under 24 has been announced by the Government to try to ensure that new entrants are coming into the sector. As the Minister responsible for school capital, I am sure that he will also be aware of the build, build, build process, in which engineering construction will be vital.
I saved the concession for the noble Lord, Lord Hain. There is a recognition that there has been a market failure. It is addressed by a collective action, ensuring that across the sector there are appropriate training opportunities for people. That is part of the reason for the collective role of the board, which is distinctive. Apprenticeships are often employer-based, so this is a particular issue. The levy supports the industry well and has industry support. It is developing with working practices—hence we see the change in the percentage being asked for for offsite workers. As we have all seen in the Covid pandemic, there has been a recognition in many sectors other than engineering construction of the ability to work remotely—for example, if you are working on a nuclear plant or in a chemical works. The board and the levy are showing themselves fit for the developing world we live in, particularly post this epidemic.
Noble Lords will be aware that the Secretary of State for Education has talked about further education, further education, further education. The lack of parity sometimes between higher education and further education has meant a lack of investment in the skills that industries such as this need. We will soon be announcing details of the £2 million kickstart scheme for young people.
I want to move on to the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Garden of Frognal, about the apprenticeship levy and the potential difficulties for those who now pay both levies. She also commented on construction training qualifications. First, let me be clear that the ECITB levy and the apprenticeship levy fund different activities. Funding from the apprenticeship levy supports apprentices across all sectors and occupations, whereas the ECITB is specifically for the engineering construction industry, using levy funds to provide direct grants to employers to train staff or to develop the skills of their existing workforce. As I said, it is collective rather than employer based. It funds more than apprenticeships, although I recognise that apprenticeships are offered at various different levels. That sector-specific support may and does support apprentices within engineering construction in addition to the apprenticeship levy support. It is true that some organisations are in the scope of both levies. Even so, the sector has shown strong support for the ECITB levy. I reiterate that 75% of all levy payers, who between them are likely to pay 87% of the levy, voted in favour of the proposal that your Lordships’ House is discussing today.
I take this opportunity to emphasise that the levy order under debate is for the ECITB. Engineering construction is a specialised industry that underpins delivery, maintenance and decommissioning of the UK’s critical infrastructure. It is different from an industrial training board supporting skills in the broader construction sector, which is not for discussion today.
Regardless of the specific sector, I reassure noble Lords that training and qualifications are at the forefront of the Government’s plans for recovery. We are scaling up the National Careers Service and investing more money in offering 30,000 traineeships, as well as providing the additional funding for apprenticeships that I have outlined.
The ECITB recognises the need for diversity. I also have the pleasure of being the Minister for Women; I hosted a remote round table when it was International Women in Engineering Day, where I believe I had before me the only female BAME structural engineer working on the big sewage tunnel under London. I look forward to the day when I will be able to visit her on site. Therefore, there is a focus on that, and the industry recognises—the Government have various initiatives on this as well—that we need to increase the number of women studying STEM subjects, which is often a precursor to entering engineering and construction. However, there will be a focus on and the launch of the new T-levels. Although the Government support and recognise the value of vocational qualifications, there is too much complexity within them. There has been a review to ensure that good qualifications are maintained and offered clearly to young people—as clearly as the routes to higher education are outlined.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Watson, for his questions. First, on whether the ECITB intends to return or retain levies paid this year or reduce levy payments in 2021, it does not have the legal power to issue levy rebates. It derives its powers to collect a levy through the Industrial Training Act 1982, the 2017 levy order and, once it is made, this order. This legislation would need to be amended to allow the ECITB to give rebates. Therefore, it does not intend to reduce levy payments in 2021. Given the impact of Covid-19, it is more important than ever that the ECITB is able to support employers to retain workers both immediately and in the longer term.
In response to the challenges created by Covid, the ECITB has introduced a package of measures to help industry, including: a Train to Retain scheme to help employers retain apprentices and graduates, which I outlined; a new scholarship scheme to support trainees embarking on engineering construction careers; and increased investment in digital training and assessment tools. Furthermore, the ECITB uses levy funds to strengthen the industry in the long term. By supporting employers to make sustainable investment in training to maintain vital skills and to create a pipeline of skilled workers, this helps to future-proof the industry. Without that investment, there would be a shortage of skilled workers to deliver infrastructure projects that will form part of this country’s recovery.
On the noble Lord’s question about the reasons for employers opposing the levy, the ECITB does not ask employers to document their reasons. However, I point out that of the 25% that the noble Lord outlined in his speech, 10% of levy-paying employers did not support the proposal, and 15% just did not respond.
The noble Lord also asked me to explain the reason for the phased increase in the levy rate for offsite employees over the three-year levy period. The offsite workforce consists of everyone who is working at a geographical distance from the site, and, as we can anticipate, the size of that offsite workforce is increasing; currently it represents 53% of the overall industry workforce. I should point out that while the offsite levy rate is increasing, it will remain significantly lower than the site levy rate. In the first year during which the levy will have an impact, it will increase by only 0.06%. Of the 129 employers who pay the offsite levy and were eligible to vote, 78% voted in favour of the levy.
Noble Lords will be aware from previous debates that the ECITB exists because of the support it receives from employers and employer interest groups in the engineering construction sector. It continues to be the collective view of industry that training should be funded through a statutory levy system to secure a sufficient pool of skilled labour and the future of the sector. There is a firm belief that without the levy, there would be a serious deterioration in the quality and quantity of training in this sector that would create particular challenges in the current economic climate, as such training is vital for meeting various infrastructure projects, including those relating to the environmental challenge of reducing the UK’s carbon emissions to zero. I commend the order to the Committee.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) (Con)
I remind Members to sanitise their desks and chairs before leaving the Room. The Committee stands adjourned until 3.45 pm.
Arrangement of Business
(3 years, 7 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) (Con)
My Lords, Hybrid Grand Committee will now resume. Some Members are here in person, respecting social distancing, others are participating remotely, but all Members will be treated equally. I must ask Members in the room to wear a face covering, except when seated at their desk, to speak sitting down and to wipe down their desk, chair and other touch points before and after use. If the capacity of the Committee Room is exceeded or other safety requirements are breached, I will immediately adjourn the Committee. If there is a Division in the House the Committee will adjourn for five minutes.
Equivalence Determinations for Financial Services (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Agnew of Oulton
That the Grand Committee do consider the Equivalence Determinations for Financial Services (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020
Relevant document: 21st Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office and the Treasury (Lord Agnew of Oulton) (Con)
My Lords, the Treasury has been undertaking a programme of legislation to ensure that after the end of the transition period there continues to be a functioning legal and regulatory regime for financial services in the UK. The Treasury is laying SIs under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 to deliver this legislative programme and the majority of these SIs have already been approved in this place and in the House of Commons.
As part of this financial services legislative programme before exit day the Treasury laid the Equivalence Determinations for Financial Services and Miscellaneous Provisions (Amendment etc) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, commonly known as the Equivalence Regulations 2019. Those regulations were designed to ensure that if the UK left the EU without a transition period, the UK would have a fully functioning equivalence framework from exit day. The additional time afforded by the transition period has provided us with the opportunity to put in place supplementary measures in the Equivalence Regulations 2019 to ensure that the UK continues to have a robust and functioning equivalence framework for financial services, both during and after the end of the transition period.
The measures in the instrument being debated today complement the Equivalence Regulations 2019 by creating additional stand-alone powers in this instrument for the UK-relevant financial services regulators—the Bank of England and the Financial Conduct Authority in this case—which are appropriate for those regulators in the transition period. They also make minor amendments to the earlier 2019 regulations, again as appropriate for the transition period. This SI will, finally, make minor amendments to add to the powers available to the regulators after the end of the transition period and to correct errors in earlier financial services EU exit legislation.
I am grateful that this SI was raised as an instrument of interest by the Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee in its July report and for the question that the committee raised. I intend to address the question now and in the course of the debate.
The instrument being debated concerns the UK’s future regime for equivalence, a process to determine that another country’s regulatory and supervisory regime is equivalent to the UK’s corresponding regulatory framework. Recognising the regulatory equivalence of third countries is a key component of financial services regulation. Equivalence of determinations can help to reduce regulatory burdens on firms and can facilitate cross-border market access. This may lead to increased competition that can benefit both UK firms and consumers by engendering healthy market incentives to lower prices and offer innovative products.
At present, equivalence functions are performed by the European Commission and the European supervisory authorities. At the end of the transition period, these functions will be transferred to HM Treasury and the UK regulators as provisions in retained EU law. During the transition period, equivalence determinations can be made for EEA states via powers within the 2019 equivalence regulations. This instrument provides a UK equivalence framework that is appropriate for use during the transition period in relation to the EU’s existing framework. It allows the UK financial services regulators to complete the associated actions that mean that HM Treasury equivalence determinations taken during the transition period can take full effect at the end of that period.
This is a technical SI that provides for the UK’s transition to its new position outside the EU. I will turn now to the main categories of fixes that are being introduced here. The first three changes provide UK regulators with the appropriate powers to complete the associated actions to ensure that HM Treasury equivalence determinations can take effect fully at the end of the transition period. Currently, the 2019 equivalence regulations allow HM Treasury to make equivalence determinations by direction during the transition period for EEA states where these directions would not enter into force until the end of the transition period. As part of the equivalence process, almost all equivalence provisions in retained EU law will require UK financial services regulators to conclude co-operation agreements with the relevant regulatory authority or authorities for that EEA state before the determination can take effect.
There is currently no mechanism to allow regulators to undertake this during the transition period. Where the Treasury has made an equivalence determination by direction, this SI will make transitional provision for UK financial services regulators to have the power to enter into relevant co-operation agreements with the appropriate EEA regulatory authorities before the end of the transition period. These co-operation agreements would come into effect at the end of the transition period for the necessary provisions in retained EU law.
In addition, as part of the direction-making process, almost all equivalence provisions require regulators to issue recognition or registration decisions for non-UK firms. Where the Treasury has made an equivalence determination by direction during the transition period, this instrument puts in place a regime for firms to make an application to the appropriate regulator, and for that application to be processed. It will therefore ensure that regulators have the power to process applications and issue recognition and registration decisions during the transition period to come into effect at the end of that period for the necessary provisions in retained EU law.
This SI will also give regulators the power to request fees from applicants for such regulatory decisions. I appreciate that the House of Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee questioned whether there is enough time for UK regulators to establish co-operation agreements with EEA regulators once an equivalence determination is made and then process applications made by EEA firms. I am pleased to say that regulators have a period of one year to process applications from EEA firms once the required co-operation agreements have been established. Both the Treasury and the regulators consider this to be ample time for the regulators to decide any applications.
Secondly, this SI will amend the Credit Rating Agencies (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, which in turn make provision for the onshoring of the EU credit rating agencies regulation. The amendments will onshore powers to enter into co-operation arrangements currently held by the European Securities and Markets Authority, such that in the future they will be held by the FCA. The amendments also make provision for existing EU equivalence determinations that will form part of retained EU law by operation of Section 3 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018.
Finally, two minor but necessary amendments are made to the Central Securities Depositories (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018. The first relates to a provision which stipulates that equivalence may be granted only to states that have a regime for the recognition of central securities depositories authorised in other states. The amendment ensures that the UK is one of these states. The second amendment ensures that the Bank of England has the appropriate timescales to make recognition decisions for central securities depositories.
In summary, the Government believe that the proposed instrument is necessary to ensure that there is an appropriate equivalence framework for financial services during the transition period and to complement that already put in place by the 2019 equivalence regulations. I hope that colleagues will join me in supporting these regulations, and I commend them to the Committee.
Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)
My Lords, we have no room for manoeuvre on time for this debate, so I would be grateful if Peers could keep to time and ideally go slightly short.
Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD) [V]
My Lords, I refer to my interest set out in the register as a director of the London Stock Exchange.
I thank the Minister for introducing the regulations, but I admit that I got off to a bad start when looking at them. Helpful though it is to have tables in the schedule, I found it very awkward to have the regulations themselves drafted as an adjunct to a table that requires simultaneous viewing on different pages. I thought that I was in a puzzle book and having to take a cheat peek at the answers at the back.
First, I must consult the Schedule 1 list in the 2019 SI, and then I must cross-reference to table 1 in Schedule 1 of this SI—although it is unclear from reading Regulation 3 whether this refers to Schedule 1 of the 2019 instrument, as has just been referenced, or, as happens to be the case, Schedule 1 of this SI. I can find that out by discovering that Schedule 1 of the 2019 SI does not have a table. I must then repeatedly consult the table and look at each column to find out which paragraph of Schedules 2 and 3 and Schedule 1 of the 2019 SI are relevant. All of these instructions distract greatly from the clarity of Schedules 2 and 3, which really did not need all this obfuscation.
Aside from the structure, the SI seems to do what is necessary—although I reckon that it should have been part of the 2019 regulations to give regulators clarity. Unfortunately, this is all part of a patchwork that replicates, and makes even more confusing, the already tangled web of EU equivalence provisions that has evolved over time.
I hope that one day soon an overarching policy will be outlined on how the UK will balance openness, competitiveness, security and public interest in our future equivalence regime. This must reflect the needs not just of financial service companies in large countries but also the real economy companies that they serve, and encompass issues such as enabling trade at reasonable cost for the less developed countries. There can be a lot more to equivalence than first meets the eye, as was eventually realised with EMIR. At times, the benefits of equivalence may be needed within the country giving equivalence rather than the country gaining equivalence.
A similar point can be found in one of the fixes in today’s SI, which creates equivalence-determining powers so that where EU legislation says a third country has to have a recognition regime, we have one that qualifies. For us, this is fine, but the subtext of the EU requirement is a reciprocity requirement, and it is the sort of provision that needs care before imposing in any generic way, should that idea arise in the future.
It has been discussed previously, and in the context of authorisations, that regulators have been busy making various co-operation arrangements with third-country regulators where they did not already exist. It would be good to have an update on the progress of those agreements and how complete they are, including the business volume covered and the countries or instances where requirements are being waived.
Finally, a lot of energy and time has been expended researching, debating and hoping for a broad equivalence deal with the EU on financial services. Maybe that kept some in the City sweet and had to be heard and tried, but it has always been my informed view that that was unrealistic. Taken collectively, and in practice, equivalence for the EU is not really a matter of co-operation; it is yielded only when essential or aimed at promoting EU regulatory prevalence. Both those tendencies meant that resisting giving the UK equivalence was always going to be tested to destruction. It is what rises from the destruction that will be interesting, but it is not a sit-and-wait game.
Viscount Trenchard (Con)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for introducing the debate today. It is good news to know that the Government are taking the necessary steps to ensure that a coherent and functioning financial services equivalence framework continues in the UK after the end of the transition period.
The position is complicated by the fact that the EU’s single market in financial services is only partly developed. It is therefore necessary for the Treasury to determine whether or not each member state has an equivalent regulatory regime for a particular firm or product to that which applies in the UK.
There are several problems with this approach. First, does it mean that arrangements similar to the EU passport system for particular individual firms are to be continued? Secondly, the products referred to in the SI seem to conform to the categories of products—or, rather, services—covered in individual European regulations. Would it not be simpler for the UK to set out its own regulatory regime based on equivalence of outcomes, and to allow all regulated service providers in a particular category to operate in the UK subject to satisfactory co-operation arrangements being established between the relevant member state or EEA country regulator and the FCA or the Bank of England?
Presumably, ESMA also needs to be involved, because it has taken over many powers from the member state regulators and will doubtless continue to expand its area of control. It may not be just ESMA: perhaps the EBA or EIOPA is the relevant European regulator for the firm or product concerned.
The SI does its job in avoiding a cliff edge and providing stability and continuity for financial companies and markets in the UK after the end of the implementation period. However, is it sensible to continue to grant equivalence on the basis of single European regulations? Going forward, do we want a regulatory system that is a clone of the EU system? How are we going to make equivalence decisions in respect of financial firms from third countries such as the United States, Japan and Australia, and others whose regulatory systems are not based on prescriptive EU-style legislation?
Many smaller British firms have been forced out of business or to merge by the cumbersome rules and excessive costs forced on them by European directives such as the AIFMD and MiFID II. To ensure that the City of London will preserve and further consolidate its position as the world’s leading and most competitive financial centre, does it not need to move away from the cumbersome European system and adopt a simpler, rules-based proportionate system which would allow innovative new products and markets to develop?
Does my noble friend the Minister not agree that the Government cannot legislate only for continuity EU-UK arrangements but must do more to set out their stall and attract financial services companies from third countries as we again take responsibility for our own regulatory policy and framework, and as we start to play a bigger part, commensurate with the size of our markets and the skills of our practitioners, in the development of common international regulations through IOSCO and other bodies?
Baroness Wheatcroft (Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, I refer to my role as a director of a financial services company, as listed in the register.
We all know the importance of financial services to our economy: it is the highest exporting sector that we have. However, as this legislation indicates, we risk jeopardising its success. There is no denying the need for this legislation, but we are already into September: if a comprehensive deal is not agreed soon with the EU—and the omens do not look good—then the financial services industry risks being badly damaged.
I listened to the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, talk about how much we could innovate and so on if we were free of EU regulations. But innovation in financial services is rarely a benefit; in fact, I am hard-pressed to think of an innovation since the invention of the hole-in-the-wall that has actually been beneficial.
Equivalence in regulation is imperative for trade with the EU to continue, and recognition of that equivalence has to be in place for transactions to continue. The Minister sounded confident that that will be the case within the required timescale. Can he explain why he is so confident that equivalence will be granted in the EU?
The political declaration sounded optimistic about the prospects for equivalence, with the implicit intention that cross-border service provision would continue. But can we now be assured that this is a view shared by both parties? The direction that the negotiations have been taking appears to be diverging somewhat drastically, and certainly progress is not being made.
More specifically, do the UK regulators have the capacity required to make the decisions on equivalence that they will be asked to make? Has a decision been taken on the level of charges that they can implement and whether this will be sufficient to cover the extra costs involved?
Finally, I point out that one of the major assets of the UK financial services sector will not be impacted at all by any success on the equivalence front: the supply of talented Europeans who have played such an important part in making a success of the financial services industry in the UK. They have already been leaving in large numbers, and it is highly unlikely that they will return once freedom of movement has been turned off. The UK has been a star in the global financial services market; we are now deliberately risking dimming that star.
Baroness Altmann (Con)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for moving this necessary SI and I support the measures it contains. However, I have a number of questions—I will try to be brief, as requested.
Clearly, there is an assumption that a 12-month transition period is sufficient to reach the agreement necessary, but can my noble friend tell me what provision might be made should it not prove sufficient, as many of us are concerned about? Perhaps 12 months seemed to be enough at the time, but will it be?
I also ask my noble friend—I declare my interests as set out in the register—what impact there might be on defined benefit pension schemes in a no-deal scenario, regardless of these measures, which I assume and hope we will approve today, with respect to financial derivatives and remittance of payments, including assessment of the risk that clearing or margin requirements could be triggered, and what provisions the Government may be able to make in changes to derivatives documentation entered into by those funds.
Another important area is the third-country requirements for the purposes of EMIR and whether this might mean that counterparty risks from EU banks may no longer rely on the exemptions under EMIR when entering into derivatives with UK entities such as defined benefit pension schemes. I note that the FCA, the Bank of England and the PRA are involved and would be grateful to know whether there have been any discussions with the Pensions Regulator in this regard. That is particularly relevant here for UK pension schemes if their bank counterparty in the EU is relying on exemptions available to pension schemes under EMIR’s mandatory clearing obligation.
Finally, when the UK’s asset management industry enters into intragroup transactions with EU group companies, should it consider whether those EU companies will continue to be able to rely on the exemptions under EMIR and what impact this SI or other government plans may have on those entities?
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD) [V]
My Lords, this instrument raises many more questions than it answers, as is increasingly the case with government business.
First, what does paragraph 7.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum mean when it states:
“The UK has now left the EU with a deal”?
Is that not at best disingenuous, if not downright deceitful? We have an agreement to leave; we do not have a deal.
At the end of June, M Barnier said that the political declaration committed us to use best endeavours to finalise our respective assessments by the end of June. The Commission sent 28 questionnaires to the UK covering the areas where equivalence is possible. At that time, only four had been returned. Where are we now? Are we not empowering ourselves to set out our terms for equivalence to third parties? This is of course necessary to enable us to deal with the world and to negotiate with the EU, but when will the industry get any clarity as to what equivalence will be agreed with the EU? Is there any prospect—which always seemed unlikely, and is much less so given the current mood music—that the EU will agree to any longer time for ending equivalence unilaterally than its current 30-day rule?
I turn to the impact of the changes in Scotland, which is the UK’s largest financial centre outside London. It is estimated that financial and related professional services account for 9.4% of the Scottish economy, something the Scottish National Party sometimes seems unaware of. According to Scottish Enterprise, there are 28,865 companies in the sector in Scotland, employing 247,000 people directly or indirectly and generating around £16.7 billion. UK in a Changing Europe also highlights the importance of financial services to Scotland. In Edinburgh, a conservative estimate of employment in financial services stands at 10.7% of the workforce. Indeed, Edinburgh employs a larger proportion of people in financial services than anywhere in the UK outside the square mile and Tower Hamlets, and significant numbers also work in financial services in Glasgow and West Dunbartonshire. Edinburgh has now risen 12 places in the 2020 global financial centres index to be ranked as the 17th most important financial centre in the world. It is home to the global headquarters of the Royal Bank of Scotland and Scottish Widows, and CYBG, which owns the Clydesdale Bank, Virgin Money and Yorkshire Bank, has its European headquarters in Glasgow.
Financial services are Scotland’s largest service export, with the EU being a significant component of our exports. The EU single market is an important export market for Scotland’s financial services. Some 18% of Edinburgh’s total services exports are financial services to the EU, which is higher than the comparable figure for London, at 15%. This suggests that, proportionately, Scotland’s financial services are slightly more dependent on the EU. There are now signs that Scottish financial firms, as elsewhere in the UK, are planning a future outside the UK. For example, Scottish Widows transferred its European portfolio to a new legal entity in March 2019, Standard Life Aberdeen has opened a portfolio management and distribution service in Dublin to service the EU 27 and Royal Bank Of Scotland began operating a banking entity in the Netherlands in March 2019 to serve non-UK EEA customers.
In the financial crash, the impact of the changes was more severe outside London, so it is important to monitor how the changes we face impact on the Scottish economy in terms of jobs and access to finance, and on other areas of the UK outside London.
Big companies will do whatever it takes to develop their business, and that may not be in the interests of the UK. They will put their business before the UK national interest. There are a lot of small businesses in financial services. They might not find it so easy. Valid as this legislation is, what is lacking is any sense of political direction or certainty on which such businesses can be planned.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister for setting out so clearly the ramifications of these technical regulations, as he describes them. I have just a couple of questions, which are not dissimilar to those raised by other noble Lords. On page 1 of the Explanatory Memorandum, paragraph 2.3 states:
“At present equivalence functions are performed by the European Commission and the European Securities and Markets Authority ... At the end of the Transition Period these functions will be transferred to HM Treasury and the UK regulators as provisions in retained EU law.”
Clearly, they will be the regulators and will apply the equivalence regime but, in the event of an alleged breach being raised by a financial services company in the UK, which body will provide a remedy? My understanding is that currently, the EU Commission is the watchdog and recourse can be had to the European Court of Justice. Which body do the Government imagine will provide an appeal and a remedy in the event of the regulations being breached?
My second question relates to my noble friend’s clear statement that the regulation before us today deals with retained EU law. As other noble Lords, not least the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, have said, the current regime is a matter of ongoing interest in the EU Commission. Concerns were raised in the Financial Times in the middle of August that it may take longer for firms based in London to gain access after Brexit. My final question to the Minister is: what will be the position on 1 January 2021 for any future changes to the equivalence regime in Brussels? Will firms based in the UK—any part of the UK, either Edinburgh or London—have blanket access to the whole of the European Union or will the Commission insist that negotiations take place on a country-by-country basis? The noble Lord, Lord Bruce, accurately stated that only a small number of questionnaires have been returned. They will obviously take some time to complete fully and accurately.
Finally, I say on a note of disappointment that, while it is excellent that we have the equivalence regime under retained EU law, it will not provide anything like the prosperity and excellence that has made the City of London the most successful global financial centre.
Baroness Kramer (LD) [V]
My Lords, this statutory instrument is clearly necessary to enable an equivalence regime for financial services to be in place following the transition period.
We all know that financial services are critical to this country’s GDP and tax base. Historically, the sector has provided more than 2 million jobs in the UK and more than £76 billion a year in tax revenue but, in the past, one-third of the sector has relied on EU clients, nearly half of whose business has been lost due to Brexit. I note with concern that, reflecting this shift, London, according to the think tank Z/Yen, which manages the index, has lost its position as the global number one financial centre to New York.
Even more concerning, both New York and London have been losing position, although London is losing it faster than New York. The rising locations are in Asia and the EU 27. One expert described these centres, especially the EU ones, as small black holes, growing rapidly as they sweep in new and transferred operations. We cannot afford to lose any more business. Equivalence matters. My party therefore supports the passage of this SI. We note that, like all the SIs dealing with equivalence, this one represents unilateral action by the UK, without which EEA firms could not continue to access the London markets. However, to deny that access would be extreme self-harm as we would be the losers. Essentially, this SI attempts to retain some parts of the status quo.
However, I want to confirm that the arrangements in Schedule 3, which relate to benchmarks, allow Libor to be replaced by risk-free reference rates set by the eurozone and non-eurozone EEA countries. The UK equivalent will be SONIA, the sterling overnight index average. Your Lordships will know that Libor has been a disgraced benchmark since American journalists exposed that it had been corrupted and manipulated for decades under the noses of the UK Government and regulators, who were blinded by their philosophy of light-touch regulation.
I also want to use this opportunity to ask the Minister to give the Committee an update on the status of the equivalence negotiations with the EU. Can the Government confirm that they are no longer seeking mutual recognition? Quite a number of members of the Tory party—we heard some of this again today—and the regulators have indicated that they expect and want divergence to be a significant feature of future financial services regulation. Is that correct? What will be the underpinning philosophy of divergence, since I assume that light-touch regulation remains disgraced? Are the Government making any progress on finding a mutually agreed mechanism with the EU to resolve any dispute on divergence and equivalence? Is there any progress on getting a notice period for cancellation longer than the current norm of 30 days? Without a notice period of at least two years for equivalence cancellation, firms that use London will be living with disturbing uncertainty.
How are other issues that could lead to the cancellation of equivalence to be resolved? Perhaps the most obvious issue is that of financial stability related to the supervision in the UK of central counterparties clearing trillions of euros in derivatives. Actions to protect the UK economy in a crisis could cause havoc for the euro and the EU without some mechanism for co-operation and mutual support.
The expectation of the financial services industry is not that London will collapse as a global financial centre the day after the end of the transition period but that it will be in the EU’s interest to pull business into the 27 salami slice by salami slice as capacity expands, which is at least a 10-year strategy. New York has been reasserting its dominance in dollar-based financial business. China and India, as rising economic stars, have made it clear that they have no intention of ceding control of their key financial markets to any foreign country. The UK remains a major global player only so long as it dominates European financial services. How this Government deal with equivalence will essentially determine the future of this key sector of our economy.
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I thank the Minister for presenting this SI. As he knows, the Opposition will not oppose it as it would create a constitutional crisis. Nevertheless, it is the duty of Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition to scrutinise the instrument.
As we have discussed on previous occasions, the volume of and interplay between the Treasury’s EU exit SIs makes keeping track of the changes somewhat difficult. The intricacies of this instrument, which simultaneously amends and supplements a 2019 measure, is a case in point. I thank Vanessa McKay, the designated Treasury contact, for helping me to achieve a limited understanding of the regulation and the equivalence framework in which it fits.
I conclude that the instrument is technical in nature and complements the actions taken under the authority of the equivalence regulations of 2019 and 2020. The instrument provides for subsequent co-operation arrangements and regulatory decisions. I do not believe that it introduces any significant new policy. I would value an assurance from the Minister on that point.
Nevertheless, having previously met the Commons Minister on this issue, I am dissatisfied with the level of understanding that I was able to achieve on first reading the supporting documentation. It may be inevitable that the instrument is written in impenetrable language but surely the Explanatory Memorandum is supposed to overcome this barrier. In January 2020, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee published guidance for departments on statutory instruments. I quote from paragraph 4 of Part 2:
“The purpose of an EM is to provide the Houses and the public with a plain English, free-standing, explanation of the effect of an instrument and how it is intended to operate. It is not meant for lawyers. Legal explanations of the changes are given in the Explanatory Note that forms part of an SI and should not be duplicated.”
This Explanatory Memorandum clearly fails this test. Perhaps it is what comes of reading such documents during Recess, but I fear that if somebody like myself who has dealt with 50 of these instruments has difficulties in following the commentary, an interested citizen without prior knowledge stands no chance. For example, paragraph 2.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum contains a circa 100-word, nine-line sentence. I understand that there are more Treasury SIs to come. I hope that Her Majesty’s Treasury will prioritise EMs that are easier to read, set the SI in context and require less prior knowledge. I would be happy to discuss this matter with the Minister and his officials if they feel this would be of use.
The essence of today’s debate is equivalence for financial services. The guidance in this area is provided in paragraphs 35, 36 and 37 of the political declaration. It envisages concluding,
“these assessments before the end of June 2020.”
I understand that that deadline was missed. What are the implications of this in terms of the trade negotiations and the preparedness of financial services firms? Does the Minister have an estimate of when the process will be completed?
John Glen, Economic Secretary to the Treasury, said in a letter of 27 May 2020 to the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, chair of the EU Financial Affairs Sub-Committee:
“Successfully concluding equivalence assessment and delivering comprehensive positive findings will be in the UK and EU’s mutual interest and we can see no reason why the UK and EU will not be able to find each other equivalent across all existing equivalence regimes. As you will be aware, equivalence assessments are unilateral processes and thus not part of the ongoing negotiations on the future EU/UK partnership.”
Further, the concluding sentence of paragraph 2.1 of the EM says:
“This statutory instrument … is not linked to the ongoing UK-EU negotiations on a free trade agreement.”
These statements imply that the determination of equivalence is independent of the free trade negotiations. Does this not display heroic optimism and naivety in the light of the Swiss experience? Switzerland lost its equivalence recognition over a lack of progress in an unrelated negotiation.
Further, what is the Minister’s view of the recent statement by Mr Dombrovskis, an executive vice-president of the European Commission? The Financial Times reports him as saying that Brussels would not be ready in the coming months to assess whether Britain qualifies for some pan-EU access rights, known as equivalence provisions, because the bloc’s own regulations are in flux.
If an equivalence ruling is not given, or at least not in a timely manner, what is the Minister’s assessment of the impact on cross-border financial services trade between the UK and the EU? Is he concerned about a financial stability impact if access is withdrawn suddenly after 31 December? What assessment has he made of London’s attractiveness as a place from which financial services firms operate if their ability to sell services into the EU on the basis of equivalence is withdrawn?
Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their questions and for the important points raised in this debate. I will try to answer as many as I can in the time available, and, where I am not able to, I will ensure that we write to noble Lords.
The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, asked about progress on co-operation agreements. That is an ongoing process, and we will of course keep this House updated on that process of engagement over the next few months. My noble friend Lord Trenchard asked whether we should continue with a policy of holding to equivalence with the EU regime. That is certainly our policy at the moment, because that is how the City has worked over the past 40 or so years. However, by being in control of our own regulatory policy, we will have the opportunity in the coming years to keep reviewing that. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, made the important point that the growth is now in Asia. By having our own regulatory regime, we will have the flexibility to consider those opportunities.
My noble friend Lady Wheatcroft raised a number of questions. Possibly the most important one was whether the EU will grant equivalence. We are of course at the tail end of these negotiations, a time at which things will be most fraught. It would certainly be absolutely in the interests of the EU to grant equivalence, but I cannot prejudge the outcome of the discussions over the next few weeks.
On the capacity of our regulators to take on these decisions, we have engaged in depth on this issue and we are assured that they have this resource. Fees will be a matter for individual regulators in order to recover their costs in processing any applications.
My noble friend Lady Altmann asked what provision should be made beyond the 12-month period to process these applications. Certainly, that was the period of time that was considered reasonable. My noble friend made a perfectly reasonable point that the transition period has seemed tight, but we have had the worst pandemic in nearly at 100 years in the middle of it, so I am confident that we can deliver on that. She raised one or two other technical questions on defined benefits, and I will write to her in an attempt to answer them.
The noble Lord, Lord Bruce, made one or two points on paragraph 7.2 which states,
“The UK has now left the EU with a deal.”
While decisions on equivalence are autonomous and unilateral in many areas of financial services, it is essential to understand the approach of the other party when deciding how to approach an area of cross-border activity. While the UK has undertaken an assessment of the EU, we will not be making equivalence decisions at this stage; we will make decisions where and when we determine that it is in the UK’s interest. Our ambition is to achieve a reciprocal equivalence, supported by the effective regulatory co-operation of an ambitious FTA, and we continue to work towards that goal. We continue to believe that comprehensive mutual findings of equivalence between the UK and the EU are in the best interests of both countries. However, as I said in relation to earlier questions, it will be a very rough few months. We must be perfectly realistic about that.
My noble friend Lady McIntosh asked about the handling of a breach. The normal rules of public law will apply, and, after the transition period, equivalence will be covered by provisions in retained EU law, as amended under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018.
The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, asked about the status of the negotiations. We have completed round 7. We have been clear in discussions throughout that this intensified process continues to be constructive, but there are still significant differences. Our preference is to leave with an FTA as long as it guarantees our political and economic independence, and these are tricky issues.
On plans for divergence, as I mentioned on an earlier question, we are committed to regulatory autonomy but at this stage to providing as much equivalence as we can. We are committed to the highest standards of regulation and the appropriate levels of supervisory oversight. In many areas we already go beyond what the EU rules require. Where we make changes, they will be for good reasons, but our starting point will be what is right for the UK, our economy and to ensure financial stability.
The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, raised a number of questions. He was worried about the quality of the guidance documents and felt that they were not in a spirit of providing clarity. That is a fair criticism, and I will certainly encourage officials to try to provide a more accessible guidance for future SIs, which I expect we will have over the next few weeks and months.
The noble Lord asked whether the instrument, which provides for subsequent co-operation agreements and regulatory decisions, introduces any significant new policy. I can confirm that that is correct; the provisions in this SI complement existing provisions and make minor amendments to earlier EU exit instruments and retained EU law but do not alter the policy of the earlier instruments or introduce any new policy.
The noble Lords, Lord Tunnicliffe and Lord Bruce, asked about the progress on the questionnaires, which have a deadline of the end of June of this year, and about the implications of not having met that deadline. We returned all 17 questionnaires received from the EU as part of its assessment process. The returns totalled some 2,500 pages. We received the first questionnaire only in late March, and the last 250 pages of questions reached us only at the end of May. The equivalence assessments are a technical process which each side is carrying out separately and are not linked to the UK-EU trade negotiations. Many, if not most, of the questions relate to explaining the details of the rules and regulations in the UK and the rules and regulations that we share with the EU. We have made sure that the EU has the information it requires to make a positive decision for the UK for all regimes, and we have always been clear that as the UK and EU start from a position of having very similar financial services regulations, that should be a straightforward process. We continue firmly to believe that comprehensive mutual findings of equivalence between the UK and the EU are in the best interests of both parties.
The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked about statements from my colleague the Economic Secretary, which he believes are optimistic. Equivalence is a unilateral autonomous process that is distinct from the FTA negotiations, and the politicisation of the financial services sector is not in anyone’s interest. The financial stability that underpins our economy and the EU’s economy depends on trust and predictability in relation to regulatory matters. A thriving financial services sector is clearly important to our economy but also to the EU’s economy. The UK is a global financial hub. Among other things, it channels investment into Europe cost effectively and manages the assets of millions of EU firms and consumers. Fragmentation of that market would be costly and disruptive and, given the shock of the pandemic over the past few months, it would be an odd decision for the EU to make that more difficult for its member states.
The noble Lord asked what is my assessment of the impact on cross-border financial services trade between the EU and the UK if the equivalent ruling is not given, or at least not in a timely manner. We continue firmly to believe that comprehensive mutual filings of equivalence between the UK and the EU are in the interests of both parties. We remain open and committed to continuing the dialogue with the EU about its intentions on this. The financial stability that underpins our economy and that of the EU depends on trust and predictability in relation to regulatory matters.
This SI is needed to ensure that the UK continues to have a robust and functioning equivalence framework for financial services in the UK during and after the end of the transition period. The SI will also make minor amendments to modify the errors in onshore legislation. I hope that the Committee has found this afternoon’s sitting informative. I will write on technical questions that I have not been able to answer. I hope that noble Lords will join me in supporting these regulations.
Arrangement of Business
(3 years, 7 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)
My Lords, Hybrid Grand Committee will now resume. Some Members are here in person, respecting social distancing, others are participating remotely, but all Members will be treated equally. I must ask Members in the room to wear a face covering, except when seated at their desk, to speak sitting down and to wipe down their desk, chair and any other touch points before and after use. If the capacity of the Committee Room is exceeded or other safety requirements are breached, I will immediately adjourn the Committee. If there is a Division in the House, the Committee will adjourn for five minutes.
Immigration (Persons Designated under Sanctions Regulations) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Williams of Trafford
That the Grand Committee do consider the Immigration (Persons Designated under Sanctions Regulations) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, this instrument is a technical one; unusually it does not create any new powers, but simply relates to the immigration consequences for someone who is designated or sanctioned for immigration purposes under the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act 2018, which I will refer to as SAMLA from now on.
I will first set out some background to international sanctions, particularly travel bans, with which these regulations are concerned. Under current arrangements, travel bans can be imposed by a resolution of the UN Security Council or by a decision of the Council of the European Union. In the vast majority of cases, they are imposed on individuals who are outside the UK and who have no connection with the UK. However, in the unlikely event that a travel ban is imposed on a person who is in the UK, then this would, as a matter of domestic law, have consequences for their immigration status in the UK as they will lose the right to remain here and will be subject to removal.
A person who is affected in this way may argue that removal would be an interference with their rights under the European Convention on Human Rights, or that it would be contrary to our obligations under the refugee convention. As a result, they may make a human rights or humanitarian protection claim to prevent their removal. These claims can give rise to a right of appeal before the Immigration and Asylum Chamber of the First-tier Tribunal, where a well-developed machinery has grown up to ensure that it is both fair and effective and that it complies with our international obligations.
Now that the UK is leaving the European Union and we have the ability to create autonomous domestic sanctions regimes, a similar situation may arise. A human rights or protection claim may be made against the immigration consequences of a travel ban imposed under SAMLA. Again, this is most likely to arise where an individual is in the UK and would lose their right to remain here as a result of being sanctioned.
I turn to the purpose of the regulations. Noble Lords will recall the issue of interface between challenges to sanctions and challenges to the immigration effect of sanctions being raised during the passage of SAMLA through this House. SAMLA has established an administrative assessment process for sanctions and a court review process in the High Court, or, in Scotland, the Court of Session. This is new; no such mechanism has been needed until now because challenges to UN or EU sanctions are made to them directly.
Now that the UK is creating its own domestic sanctions regimes, we could have a situation where someone wishes to challenge their travel ban in the civil courts, but at the same time also lodges an appeal to the Immigration and Asylum Chamber against the immigration effect of the travel ban—that is to say, the refusal of their human rights or protection claim against removal from the UK. Cases of this kind are likely to be extremely limited in number, but the Government consider it important to ensure that such claims are handled appropriately.
We do not want domestic sanctions to unjustifiably interfere with fundamental rights or run contrary to our obligations under the Refugee Convention. However, at the same time it is also important that the effectiveness of our domestic sanctions regime is not compromised by becoming muddled with immigration claims. The Government have therefore considered how to address this and have concluded that, as a starting point, we should seek to maintain the status quo, so that the Immigration and Asylum Chamber should remain the appropriate decision maker for appeals against the refusal of a human rights or protection claim. Both the Home Office and the tribunal are vastly experienced in this area, having disposing of 53,179 appeals in 2019.
I am sure noble Lords will agree that it is right for this to continue, but we need to manage situations where there would otherwise be the possibility of the High Court and the tribunal considering the same issue. To illustrate the point, whereas the tribunal would be best placed to determine an appeal of an immigration decision, determining the lawfulness of a ban on entry to the UK is a decision that is better suited to the High Court. These regulations ensure that each jurisdiction does not consider matters which are properly the remit of the other, that we continue to comply with our international obligations and that the effectiveness of our domestic sanctions regime is not compromised. I commend these regulations to the Committee. I beg to move.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)
Before I call the first speaker, all speakers should note that the speaking time for everybody is eight minutes, not six minutes, just so there is no confusion.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, I begin by saying that I do not think that I shall need eight minutes.
I congratulate my noble friend on the way she introduced this non-controversial statutory instrument, but I am concerned about the aftermath of leaving the European Union in one particular context. It is something I raised when I was a member of the Home Affairs Sub-Committee of the European Union Committee of your Lordships’ House and that I have raised on the Floor of the House as well.
I deeply regret the fact that, unless there has been some dramatic change in negotiations, we are not going to be able to take advantage of the European arrest warrant, nor are we going to be a member of Europol. As we are essentially dealing with potentially dangerous people who could, economically or in other ways, be a profound danger to our country, our society and our way of life, it is crucial that we maintain the closest possible co-operation with our friends and neighbours in the European Union as we leave Europol and move out of the European arrest warrant. I would be grateful if the Minister will reassure me on that point when she winds up. I know that it is an issue that troubles a number of people, and it is one that certainly troubles me.
Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]
My Lords, I wholly concur with the sentiment that the human rights of individuals should be no less at the end of transition than they were under the European Convention on Human Rights and the refugee convention. It is said that there are some 2,000 individuals and entities involved. Given the sad state of human rights in the world, the number itself is not surprising.
Do the regulations also include those involved in international cybercrime designed to thwart the democratic process? All cases should be speedily investigated and the right of residence of those clearly involved should be speedily terminated. Equally, the right of residence of those found to be without fault should be fully protected.
My main concern is about the effectiveness and morality of targeted sanctions; that is sanctions against individuals and entities, rather than against countries that are sponsoring or supporting them in illegal activities that involve the abuse of human rights. The Magnitsky case, in which a Russian accountant exposed massive government fraud and died in a Moscow prison, illustrates my concern. Those who sent him to prison bear a greater share of the blame for his death than the prison authorities.
In the same way, those that order state-sponsored torture and murder are more guilty than those they hire to carry it out. We are told that those involved in the brutal murder and dismemberment of the Saudi journalist Khashoggi are subject to such restrictions. My question is: what about those who ordered his brutal murder? Will MBS—Mohammed bin Salman—be included in the sanctions?
Targeting hired assassins or a couple of generals from countries guilty of gross human rights abuses can easily become tokenism, giving a false impression of action and commitment simply designed to protect trade with rogue countries. My fears are underlined by the recent statement of a Conservative Minister, who said that when we talk trade with China, we should not mention human rights. I have never been a great fan of Brexit, but we can take it as an opportunity to give the world a new direction on human rights.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)
I call the next speaker, the noble Lord, Lord Randall of Uxbridge. Lord Randall?
Lord Randall of Uxbridge (Con) [V]
Yes, I am here. I was not able to hear the Minister or my noble friend Lord Cormack very clearly, so if I repeat anything that they have asked or said, I apologise.
I have just a few questions about this. I echo a lot of what the noble Lord, Lord Singh, has just said. I would like to know whether, as a result of this instrument, the UK will have the power to sanction different persons or entities—or possibly states, although this may not be within this particular instrument—than those already on the UN or EU lists. Will we have to automatically sanction those that are on lists from the UN or the EU?
I also hope that this instrument will make sure that there is no possibility of loopholes and that those who are sanctioned elsewhere will not find succour and refuge in the United Kingdom. Those are the only comments that I have, and I look forward to hearing my noble friend’s answers.
Baroness Hamwee (LD) [V]
I thank the Minister for her explanation of the instrument. I was able to hear her, though I regret I was not able to hear the noble Lord, Lord Cormack.
We on the Liberal Democrat Benches are certainly not opposing the regulations. Sanctions are an important tool to protect both security and human rights; the noble Lord, Lord Singh, in particular has focused on this. UN sanctions seem in the main to relate to security, though I would argue that human rights are both intrinsically important and very closely bound up with security issues. Liberal Democrats are far from alone in having called for more sanctions against those responsible for human rights abuses in Hong Kong—which we must not allow to go off the agenda—and abuses against the Uighurs, which take the meaning of the term “abuse” to an extreme.
Immigration sanctions are not the only sanctions which can be applied against individuals. Financial sanctions can be very telling, though in both cases the impact on people in this country, and on the families of those people, can be very considerable—something that we might come back to in the Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Bill. Judicial oversight is a necessity, and I will come back to that this afternoon.
Can the Minister explain whether the travel bans under these regulations will have corresponding financial sanctions, or are the two entirely different but possibly parallel streams? One would be very keen to know that we can make more difficulty for some people, not only over shopping trips to Harrods but regarding the acquisition of residential properties whose vacancy is, at best, offensive.
These travel bans carry with them the right to large human rights law protection claims. I trust that the lawyers who undertake that work will not be attacked as “activist lawyers” by the Home Office, though I have to say for myself that I would be proud to be an activist lawyer. Indeed, I hope that all parliamentarians find it possible from time to time to be activists in the law-making process. Where would Parliament be, having made the laws, without lawyers enabling people to exercise rights under them?
I am going to take the opportunity to make the point about the importance of the European Convention on Human Rights and its place in our domestic law. I pay tribute to Lord Lester, my noble friend who died very recently, for his work on human rights and the creation of the Human Rights Act.
I emphasise the importance of judicial review. It may be called on more often and more extensively than was the case some years ago, which is not actually surprising when individual rights are threatened by the state. Judicial review is often portrayed as something pursued by tedious lefty lawyers, but I see it as having a very important function.
I have some more specific questions for the Minister. Will the claimant be able to make a human rights claim and appeal against a refusal of the claim in-country, or will he be required to apply from abroad? I suspect, in the light of Section 92 of SAMLA, that it is mostly going to be the latter, something to which we have often expressed opposition.
The instrument extends beyond the UK to jurisdictions that we are told in the Explanatory Memorandum have not been consulted. The fact that a territory has no competence does not mean it is not affected, and it may well have something to say on the issue. Most specifically, presumably the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and the British Overseas Territories are going to have to enforce the bans. Is that the case, or is enforcement a matter for the UK courts? Can the Minister explain how that is going to work?
I confess I am stumped by paragraph 7 of the regulations. Nothing in subsection (4) of the section that it refers to permits the tribunal to consider the validity of a decision to make or vary, or to refuse to revoke or vary, the immigration designation of an appellant. Can the Minister help us by approaching it the other way around and telling us what it can do?
I assume that the term “notification” does not necessarily mean that the notice has actually been received. I guess that would be something for other provisions.
Paragraph 3 applies the instrument to a person lawfully within the UK. What if that person is here unlawfully? Does one just go straight to immigration enforcement? What if the person has made an asylum claim that has not yet been determined? I should say that I do not regard that as being here unlawfully, but which claim will be determined first?
I think the Minister said that the Home Office intends to start with this arrangement, which suggests that there will be a review. Can she tell us when that is likely to take place and anything more about the review?
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for setting out clearly the purpose of the regulations. As other noble Lords have said, this matter is technical but important. I do not intend to speak for very long.
It is important that we recognise that the current process for considering a human rights or protection claim is retained for those new individuals who are subject to these travel bans, and that it is not conflated with the review and challenge mechanism for the sanctions. It is important that we delineate and set out the boundaries clearly so that we keep separate the routes for appeal, the immigration consequences of the sanction and the challenge to the sanction.
My only question concerns powers and how the Government intend to ensure that the system works as it devised to work. I know that the idea is to keep the system as it is at present, but this would not be the first time that things have gone wrong, that there have been unintended consequences or that people have unintentionally been treated unfairly or unlawfully—or, on the other hand, are able to avail themselves of something incorrectly. I very much agree with the comments that the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, made in connection with our friends and colleagues in the European Union. We need to ensure that, although we are outside the European Union, we still work closely with it. Should we not keep people safe?
I see this as two sides of the same coin. It is about treating people fairly and justly while at the same time dealing effectively with those who are alleged to have committed serious offences in terms of their movements being restricted and action being taken against them. I am looking for assurance from the Minister that this has been thought about and will continue to be thought about as we move forward.
The noble Lord, Lord Randall, talked about loopholes. It is important that we focus on them. They are not the subject of these regulations but I am of course reminded of them; indeed, we are regularly reminded of them in the Chamber. One appeal mentioned property. We often talk about the fact that, allegedly, a lot of property in London and elsewhere in the UK is owned by questionable people or organisations with no problem whatever; there is no issue at all. It is almost as if illegal or dodgy money is put into a safe jurisdiction because the criminals want to keep their money safe—and they come here. That is bad. I know that they are not part of these regulations as such, but that issue is of concern. We are lucky to live in a safe jurisdiction but equally, it should not be safe for criminals and people who want to act badly. It would be useful if the Minister could address that point to ensure that, where people have done wrong, they are dealt with and restricted properly while at the same time ensuring that people who have not are treated fairly and properly.
I will leave it there. Noble Lords have asked a number of questions. I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I thank noble Lords for their contributions.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, asked about the different types of sanctions that might be imposed. First, they can be used to fulfil a range of purposes, including supporting foreign policy and national security objectives, maintaining international peace and security and preventing terrorism. They do not operate or succeed in a vacuum. The noble Lords, Lord Singh and Lord Randall, alluded to the fact that this is not just about people. It can be about states and how those who are sanctioned elsewhere—we can think of some very obvious cases—can find succour in the UK. That is absolutely right. Think about the extradition process: a judge will look into whether any extradition request has been made maliciously or whether there would be a threat to a person’s life if they were extradited to a country where they would certainly face torture and, in some cases, death.
I will go through some recent asset freezes and travel bans to illustrate the point. Some 25 Russian nationals involved in the mistreatment and subsequent death of Sergei Magnitsky were subject to them, as were 20 Saudi nationals involved in the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. So were two high-ranking Myanmar military generals involved in the systematic and brutal violence against the Rohingya population and other minorities by the Myanmar armed forces, and two organisations involved in forced labour, torture and murder in North Korea’s gulags. Those are just some examples of the types of organisations and people that we have imposed asset freezes and travels bans on.
Several noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Cormack —although I cannot be sure—talked about the almost hiding in plain sight of assets that sit in our capital city, which may or may not be the product of dirty money, for want of a better expression. Of course, they will also have shared the experience of taking through legislation the year before last on how we can get hold of assets that people have attempted to hide and how we ensure that proceeds of crime are uncovered.
The noble Lord, Lord Singh, asked if these sorts of sanctions would cover cybercrime. Yes, they very well could do given some of the effects that cybercrime can have. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, asked whether someone can appeal from abroad. The answer is yes. What if someone is here unlawfully? Obviously, there are two things to untangle: first, someone’s immigration application or, indeed, asylum appeal, and then a sanction, if indeed one is necessary.
On Crown dependencies, a revised Explanatory Memorandum was laid today and the Crown dependencies confirm that they do not need regulations extended to their jurisdiction. However, we do not ignore our international obligations. Those who claim fear of persecution or a breach of their fundamental rights still have a statutory right of appeal against a decision to refuse those claims.
I reiterate that these regulations do not change the status quo and, on that note, I ask that the Motion be approved.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)
I remind Members to wipe their desks and chairs before leaving the Room. The Committee stands adjourned until 6.15 pm.
Arrangement of Business
(3 years, 7 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)
My Lords, Hybrid Grand Committee will now resume. Some Members are here in person, respecting social distancing, others are participating remotely, but all Members will be treated equally. I must ask Members in the room to wear a face covering, except when seated at their desk, to speak sitting down, and to wipe down their desk, chair and any other surfaces they have touched. If the capacity of the Committee Room is exceeded or other safety requirements are breached, I will immediately adjourn the Committee.
Investigatory Powers (Communications Data) (Relevant Public Authorities and Designated Senior Officers) Regulations 2020
(3 years, 7 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Williams of Trafford
That the Grand Committee do consider the Investigatory Powers (Communications Data) (Relevant Public Authorities and Designated Senior Officers) Regulations 2020
Relevant document: Special attention drawn to the instrument by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, 13th Report
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, these regulations, and the Functions of the Investigatory Powers Commissioner (Oversight of the Data Access Agreement between the United Kingdom and the United States of America and of functions exercisable under the Crime (Overseas Production Orders) Act 2019) Regulations 2020, are both made under the Investigatory Powers Act 2016. That legislation brought together powers available to our public authorities to obtain communications and data about communications, powers that are vitally important to their efforts to tackle crime and protect our citizens. It also created extensive and world-leading safeguards, including a powerful new Investigatory Powers Commissioner who provides independent oversight and authorisation of the use of these powers.
As the operational requirements of our public authorities continually evolve, it is vital that the use of the investigatory powers can adapt in response, within the strict parameters that Parliament agreed during the passing of the Investigatory Powers Act. When we do adapt the use of the investigatory powers, it is equally important that the appropriate safeguards can be applied. The regulations we are debating today collectively represent this adaptation in action.
I turn first to the Functions of the Investigatory Powers Commissioner (Oversight of the Data Access Agreement between the United Kingdom and the United States of America and of functions exercisable under the Crime (Overseas Production Orders) Act 2019) Regulations 2020. As I have previously informed the House, the agreement will allow UK public authorities, with the appropriate legal authorisation, to obtain data directly from US-based telecommunications operators for the purposes of preventing, detecting, investigating and prosecuting serious crime.
It is a requirement of the agreement to ensure an appropriate level of audit and oversight of its use. Given that the agreement has been designated under the Investigatory Powers Act 2016 and that almost all the authorities using the agreement fall under the Investigatory Powers Commissioner’s remit for aspects of their work already, it was decided that the commissioner and his team should oversee the UK’s use of the agreement.
The commissioner will, in accordance with the agreement, keep under review the compliance of UK public authorities with its terms. This will include the ex post facto review, by a judicial commissioner, of communications data authorisations and certain modifications to targeted interception warrants that would not otherwise be specifically subject to a commissioner’s review. This ex post facto review must be conducted as soon as is reasonably practicable, and no later than three months from when the authorisation is given.
In addition to the Investigatory Powers Act 2016, the agreement has been designated under the Crime (Overseas Production Orders) Act 2019. These regulations therefore amend the Investigatory Powers Act to provide the statutory basis for the commissioner to perform his role in relation to the agreement and to oversee the use of overseas production orders under the agreement. The commissioner is supportive of this and his team have recruited additional resources in preparation for the agreement coming into use. Although, as I have described, these regulations require the commissioner to perform his review of public authorities’ compliance in accordance with the agreement, the commissioner, as an independent officeholder, will continue to discharge his functions of inspection, investigation and audit as he sees fit.
The Government remain resolutely committed to the independence of the Investigatory Powers Commissioner. The Investigatory Powers Communications Data (Relevant Public Authorities and Designated Senior Officers) Regulations 2020 amend Schedule 4 to the Investigatory Powers Act to add five public authorities to the list of bodies which can legally obtain communications data, and they make minor amendments to bring certain role titles and organisation names into line with the current terminology.
Communications data includes the “who, when, where and how” of a communication but not the content: the “what” was said or written. It includes the method and way in which one person or thing communicates with another person or thing. Access to this data is a crucial investigative tool for a variety of law enforcement bodies and has a range of operational uses.
The five public authorities that we propose to add to Schedule 4 by these regulations have each demonstrated through extensive consultation with the Home Office and the Investigatory Powers Commissioner’s Office that access to the data is now necessary and proportionate to their operational requirements and statutory duties. The authorities are the Civil Nuclear Constabulary, which requires these powers to investigate threats to the most sensitive nuclear sites in the UK; the Environment Agency, in order to tackle serious organised waste crime; the Insolvency Service, in order to investigate and prosecute criminal wrongdoing connected to personal and company insolvencies; the National Authority for Counter Eavesdropping, in order to protect the Government from technical espionage attack from hostile state actors; and the Pensions Regulator, in order to investigate serious crimes associated with workplace pension schemes, including fraud and money laundering.
In short, without communications data access, these public authorities often cannot carry out their role of investigating crime effectively. By adding them to Schedule 4, they will be subject to the stringent safeguards that already govern the use of communications data. These include the independent authorisation of most requests by the Office for Communications Data Authorisations, a serious crime threshold for requiring certain types of communications data and inspections conducted by the Investigatory Powers Commissioner’s Office. The oversight, together with the communications data code of practice, ensures that requests for communications data are necessary and proportionate. Where it is no longer necessary and proportionate for a public authority to acquire communications data, the entry in Schedule 4 will be removed. Noble Lords will see that in the recent removal of the fire and rescue service.
In summary, the regulations we are debating relate to provisions already set out in the Investigatory Powers Act 2016. They will allow the use of investigatory powers by our public authorities to adapt to changes in their operational requirements as they respond to an evolving threat picture, while ensuring that the appropriate safeguards can continue to apply. I beg to move.
Lord Blunkett (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister is aware that I am very supportive of the updating of measures that, necessarily, take account of enormous and rapid change taking place around us and the need, therefore, to adapt and adopt processes commensurate with that challenge. I particularly welcome the decision to change the formula so that we do not have to rely on mutual legal assistance, which was the most time-consuming and bureaucratic way of operating. The measures also deal with the relationship with the United States.
I am also very aware of mission creep from the original investigatory powers Act of 20 years ago. I came in as Home Secretary in 2001, inheriting the primary legislation but not having the orders laid. It has rent on my heart, because my second son, who had just qualified as a computer analyst, got in touch with me to say that the order that we laid under the Act was so wide-ranging on the agencies and institutions that had the ability to draw down and use the powers under RIPA that a storm was going on in what was then the embryo of social media. Having examined it, I discovered that they were right: we had allowed too many agencies and institutions access to the powers. A great deal has been learned over the 20 years about how to avoid that, and the Minister referred to the updated Investigatory Powers Act of five years ago.
I just want to test this out this evening. There is an agency with which I do not think that many people will be familiar—in fact, I will go as far as to say on public record that I was completely unaware of the necessary but obscure UK National Agency for Counter Eavesdropping. I should be grateful if the Minister could say a word or two about it when winding up. I am very strongly in favour of avoiding eavesdropping, whether it is by state actors on our Government and economy or on private enterprise, individuals and families. I have suffered myself in the past from gross intrusion on those around me, and I am very interested to know the extent of the powers of this counter-eavesdropping agency and the role of the commissioner in overseeing it, and in particular what powers it might possess.
I will not delay the Grand Committee any longer, because I think that, on the whole, we are all in favour of the two orders and the changes being made, but it is interesting what you find out by being in the House of Lords.
Lord Naseby (Con)
My Lords, I have read the papers in front of us this afternoon and should like to highlight a couple of things. I note from paragraph 7.2 that there has been a
“rapid escalation of organised crime”
in recent years of fly-tipping and so on. It seems to me, as one who has been using the tidy tip in Biggleswade in Bedfordshire by appointment, that there is no provision for small businesses or small builders to get rid of their bits and pieces of rubbish. Although it is not absolutely covered by the order, I wonder whether it is not time to look at the fly-tipping challenge that we are facing in this country.
My other point concerns paragraph 7.3 and the Department of Health and Social Care. Am I right in thinking that that is to do with the purchasing done by the department? If not, what else does it cover?
Moving on, I note that 10 departments are now involved. One asks who is co-ordinating those 10 to ensure that they are consistent in their approach to what they think is fraud.
I declare an interest as a trustee of the parliamentary pension fund. We all know that small businesses have, quite rightly, been brought into the national pension scheme since 2012. Why, at this point, eight years on, is it felt for the first time that the Pensions Regulator should be given powers? Previously, it was not given powers, because they were not up to scratch. Any of us who are involved in that world know that it is hugely complicated at the moment; it is not easy, particularly for the millions of small businesses, to keep up to date with the changes that are being made. I am sure that mistakes are made, but I do not think that, at this point in time, this particular edition of the Pensions Regulator is proportionate to the problems in that area.
Moving on to the second order, those of us who have worked with or alongside the United States will be well aware that there are six states, Delaware being the leading one, that do not co-operate with the US Government very much at all in declaring who has moved money in and out of a state. We have had instances in the past on the Public Accounts Committee where it was clear that that particular state—and five others, I think—just does not co-operate. This all sounds fine here, but what will happen in relation to those states that do not co-operate with the US Government as a whole?
Secondly, what is the position of our overseas territories? I declare an interest: I have family in the Cayman Islands. In my judgment and, I think, in that of Her Majesty’s Government, those islands have been highly co-operative in trying to find a modus vivendi in the illegal movement of funds. Other parts of the overseas territories have not been quite so co-operative. It is not clear to me whether this agreement with the US is limited to just the UK and, as far as the States is concerned, probably does not touch those six states—I have mentioned only the leading one. I am not sure whether this measure covers the overseas territories. I do not think that it does, but I would be grateful for elucidation on that point.
Are we in a position to say okay, we have got the States, but there are other countries that we believe we should have a similar agreement with? If that is private and confidential, I do not expect it to be indicated this evening, but it would be helpful for the Committee to know the key parties—that is, countries—that we would like to have agreements with.
Paragraph 7.5 of the Explanatory Memorandum says that
“the Parties shall engage in a review of each Party’s compliance with the terms of this Agreement”.
One wonders how often. I happened to notice that tomorrow we will deal with a separate SI in which reviews will occur every three years. In other places, it is eight years. There does not seem to be too much consistency in government.
Paragraph 7.6 states:
“The IPA is included in this list, but the COPO Act is not, because it did not exist when the IPA was drafted. Consequently, the IPC is currently unable to keep under review any Agreement-related activity exercisable by virtue of the COPO Act, such as the use of OPOs.”
Is this not a loophole? Since we are doing this now—this measure must have been prepared some time ago—what are we doing to close that loophole?
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)
I call the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, Lord Morris? I think we have to move on, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
My Lords, the Investigatory Powers Act was a landmark piece of repressive legislation passed by this Parliament, granting unprecedented powers to gather information on the public at large. It is so bad that even the Chinese Communist Party has pointed to the UK’s law to justify its own intrusive surveillance of the Chinese people. Many of us who are concerned about state surveillance and government overreach raised the alarm at the time, but Parliament continued regardless.
However, I am happy to see that the Investigatory Powers Act that exists today is a very different beast from the one passed by Parliament only four years ago. The European Court of Justice did not take long to rule that some of the worst parts of the Act, including the Orwellian hoovering up of information about everyone’s internet usage, was plain illegal. A second court case saw the High Court rule, again, that parts of the Act were unlawful and must be replaced. That forced the Government into retreat, with powers now being deployed only against serious crime.
At a time when the Government are seeking to curtail judicial review, we should remember that the courts have acted as a beacon of our freedoms and liberties when Parliament has failed properly to scrutinise the Investigatory Powers Act. That is one example of so many reasons why we must fight against the Government’s attack on the constitutional role of the judiciary to hold the executive power to account. This is an important context which I am happy to have the opportunity to set out, with an unusually long speaking time by recent standards. This context colours the two regulations before your Lordship’s Grand Committee today.
These two regulations are relatively benign precisely because campaigners beat the Government in the court 2-0. The regulations are restricted in their scope and power, applying only to serious crime and with judicial safeguards in place. They are a world apart from the draconian, dystopian legislation dreamed up by the then Home Secretary Theresa May.
I have a specific query for the Minister, and the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, has referred to some of this. The functions of the investigatory powers order implements part of the agreement between the UK and the USA on access to electronic data for the purpose of countering serious crime. Article 12 of that agreement requires a review within 12 months of the agreement coming into force of
“each Party’s compliance with the terms”
of the agreement, and
“a review of … handling of data acquired”
under the agreement. Can the Minister say whether that review has taken place? Am I to understand from her opening remarks that it has not happened yet? When will it take place, and will your Lordships’ House have a copy of that review so that we can see it and discuss it? In particular, I seek assurances that President Trump is not using powers in this agreement against his political enemies in the USA, who seem to be growing in number. He is ruling over what looks like a totalitarian state apparatus purely for his own personal interests, and I very much hope that our Government do not go the same way.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)
I call again the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, and ask him to unmute so that we will be able to hear him. There is still no response, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, may I say that it is a great pleasure to be here in person? For one thing, you do not have the problems that my noble and learned friend Lord Morris is experiencing. However, it was said on the way in that I would not be able to cause as much mischief as I normally do in Grand Committee as we are a bit like battery hens in here. I hope that it does not affect our behaviour in that way.
This is a very important issue. I was a member of the Intelligence and Security Committee for three years between 2007 and 2010, so I have a little inside information about what some of the countries that are not our best friends get up to. This is very important in relation to that, and I will come back to it in a minute.
First, the report of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee quite rightly points out that the Civil Nuclear Constabulary, the Environment Agency and the Pensions Regulator were removed and now they are being put back in again. There is a sort of explanation under paragraph 5, but it is not really a very satisfactory one.
I suspect—the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, is shaking his head; perhaps he can answer on this—that they were taken out by the coalition because of pressure from the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives, now that they are ruling on their own, have put them back in again. For once, I agree that they should be in and that that is right—let us find out—but it represents yet another U-turn. We have had lots of them in the last few weeks, have we not? Let us add this one to the list—if anyone is keeping one.
Going back to the Intelligence and Security Committee, there was an astonishing U-turn there, mind you. Chris Grayling was so enthusiastic that he wanted to chair the committee; now he finds that he does not have enough time or enough interest even to be a member. Very strange things are going on there, but I do not think that the Minister, however good she is—and she is a good Minister—would be able to answer on that. Once Chris Grayling had dipped his toe in the water, it was not just right for him, as I think Goldilocks said.
The memorandum for the regulations relating to communications data and relevant public authorities states that the regulations
“have been subject to a successful 12-week consultation period with the Investigatory Powers Commissioner and the public authorities to which the modifications relate as required by … the IPA.”
However, given the role that the ISC had—as I know very well—in scrutinising the original Investigatory Powers Bill before it became law in 2016 and the critical recommendations it made in the 2016 report, can the Minister tell us whether the ISC itself was consulted on these regulations? If so, what did it say? If not, why not?
Similarly, I would be interested to know what scrutiny, involvement or consultation the ISC has had in the overseas production order regulations relating to UK and US communications data sharing.
Finally, these regulations come after the introduction of temporary powers—so many of them were brought into effect by the Coronavirus Act 2020—enabling the Secretary of State to grant the Investigatory Powers Commissioner powers to appoint temporary commissioners with powers to sign warrants to allow authorities to access communications data. That was in anticipation of staff shortages due to coronavirus. The time limit on seeking retrospective warrants was also expanded. As with all temporary regulations put in place because of the epidemic, can the Minister say how long she intends to keep these temporary powers in place?
I have just two or three questions to which I would like answers. Otherwise, although it might not seem it from some of my demeanour, I support the Motion.
Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for outlining these draft statutory instruments to the Committee. I find it a little disconcerting being back in London, having been away for such a long time.
Bearing in mind the comments of the noble Lords who have spoken before me, I was beginning to wonder whether I had read the wrong statutory instruments; perhaps that is all to do with my disorientation. However, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, was reassuringly in line with some of my concerns. I am also grateful to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee for drawing to the special attention of the Committee the first of the statutory instruments in its 13th report. If the Minister will bear with me, I will take the statutory instruments in the order in which they are on the Order Paper rather than in the order that she spoke to them.
As noble Lords will remember, the Investigatory Powers Act was controversial—not going quite as far as the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb—when it passed through your Lordships’ House. One of the few reassuring aspects of the legislation was the fact that a number of public authorities, most notably local authorities, had their power to access communications data revoked. It is therefore somewhat concerning that three public authorities that had their authority to access communications data removed under the 2016 Act have now had that power reinstated. My understanding is that was at the time that these public authorities had their authority removed, rather than anything to do with the coalition; I think it was post coalition.
Even more concerning is the fact that the Home Office have agreed to add these and other public authorities on the basis of new business cases, changes in circumstances and work with local police forces that the Home Office has evaluated and that it has decided to grant the powers to. I accept that the Home Office has provided a memorandum explaining the purpose and effect of the regulations, but there is only one brief paragraph on each provision. Again, the Minister was very brief in explaining why there had been a U-turn on three of these public authorities and the basis for granting the powers to the others, including this eavesdropping body—nobody has heard of it, although when I Google searched it, there it was.
These regulations are laid under the enhanced affirmative procedure of Section 268 of the 2016 Act, and yet the detailed reasoning for adding these public authorities, including the three that were previously moved, has not been made available to us. How is Parliament to properly assess whether these public authorities have made a sufficient case, so that the grant of these powers is “necessary and proportionate”? Where is the parliamentary oversight?
Can the Minister explain how many public authorities in total have sought these powers under the Investigatory Powers Act? What proportion of requests made to the Home Office have actually been granted, and how many of them have been turned down? Can the Minister explain the process for evaluating such requests, and what consultation takes place with the Investigatory Powers Commissioner before such requests are agreed to?
I understand that the complexity of crimes these public authorities investigate may have increased, and that their specific expertise and experience often make them a better place to investigate crimes in the first instance, before handing over to local police forces. However, what is to stop joint investigations with local police forces applying for the communications data required, rather than separately authorising these organisations? These are significant powers to access sensitive personal information, and the case for each public authority to access them should be made out in more than a few-line summary.
The second statutory instrument relates to the Crime (Overseas Production Orders) Act 2019—another controversial piece of legislation—and the controversial data access agreement between the United Kingdom and the United States of America. I will not rehearse the concerns expressed in your Lordships’ House about data being provided by UK communications service providers to US law enforcement agencies, under this agreement, which could result in the accused being convicted in a US court and sentenced to death.
However, can the Minister remind the Committee what the effect of Article 8(4) of the agreement is in practice? It looks to me like a case-by-case provision rather than a death penalty assurance. Are the Government reviewing this part of the agreement in light of recent Supreme Court cases?
I am reassured that the Investigatory Powers Commissioner has been involved in the drafting of this statutory instrument, but what additional resources are being given to the Investigatory Powers Commissioner to ensure proper compliance with the agreement and the periodic review of each party’s compliance with the terms of the agreement, as set out in Article 12(1)? I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Lord Rosser (Lab) [V]
We are not opposed to either of these two draft orders. The first of the two draft orders we are debating adds a further five additional public authorities to the list that are now deemed to have a “necessary and proportionate” requirement to obtain communications data, which is, of course, information about communications rather than what was said or written.
This power to obtain communications data is, according to an extra government factsheet memorandum explaining the purpose and effect of the draft instrument, on the basis that these five public authorities
“are increasingly unable to rely on local police forces to investigate crimes on their behalf”.
The five additional public authorities are the Civil Nuclear Constabulary, the Environment Agency, the Insolvency Service, the UK National Authority for Counter Eavesdropping and the Pensions Regulator. Can the Minister explain why it is that, in the light of cuts in police numbers since 2010, each of these five additional public authorities
“are increasingly unable to rely on local police forces to investigate crimes on their behalf”?
Could the Minister say whether this inability to investigate these crimes applies across all local police forces or only to some police forces, and if the latter, which ones?
We will support measures that cut crime and deal effectively and meaningfully with offenders. Can the Minister explain why the remedy is not to increase the capacity of local police forces so that they can investigate these crimes, rather than give powers to obtain communications data to civilians within these five public authorities? On the latter point about civilians, can the Government give a categorical assurance that this draft instrument does not lower the rank or seniority of designated officers and that there is no widening of the authority to exercise the powers here within the organisations covered by this or by previous orders?
The Explanatory Memorandum states that in deciding whether to grant these powers to the public authorities concerned, the Government consider the seriousness of the offences they investigate and the number of requests for data the public authorities each estimate they will make. Can these powers be used only in respect of serious offences or can they be used in respect of any offence? Can the Minister also say how many such requests for communications data each of the five additional authorities have estimated they will make and how that compares with the number being made currently by local police forces investigating crimes on their behalf? How do the estimates of the number of requests each of the five public authorities have said they will make compare with the number of requests being made by broadly comparable public authorities that already have these powers?
Currently, the public authorities that can obtain communications data under the provisions of the 2016 IP Act include, among others, intelligence agencies, law enforcement agencies, the Food Standards Agency, the Gambling Commission, the Prison and Probation Service, and the NHS Counter Fraud Authority. Can the Minister give details of which public authorities have already been given powers in relation to investigating crimes because increasingly they too cannot rely on local police forces being able to investigate crimes on their behalf? Can she also say if any public authorities for whom powers to obtain communications data have been sought have had that request declined by the Government? This point was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick.
The IP Act sets out the circumstances in which various investigatory powers may be used and the safeguards that apply in relation to ensuring that any interference with privacy is strictly necessary, proportionate, authorised and accountable. Since the Government are not required to report on the operation of the Act until five and a half years from Royal Assent, what assurances can the Government provide now that the statutory safeguards in relation to interference with privacy are proving to be effective and are delivering in line with the intentions of Parliament? What views did the Investigatory Powers Commissioner express about the addition to the list of these five further public authorities, and did the commissioner have any reservations or other comments?
The second draft instrument provides the statutory basis for the Investigatory Powers Commissioner to have the required oversight of compliance by UK public authorities on access to electronic data in relation to serious crime, as provided for in the 2019 international agreement between the UK and USA and exercisable under the Crime (Overseas Production Orders) Act 2019 and the IP Act 2016. According to the Explanatory Memorandum, this arrangement, which presumably relates to the IPC providing independent oversight of UK activity under the agreement with the USA, has been agreed with the US Department of Justice. However, to avoid any misunderstanding, can the Minister place on record in her response exactly what it is that has been agreed with the US Department of Justice? Can she also place on record in her response what arrangements the US Department of Justice has agreed with the UK in relation to independent oversight of USA activity under the agreement, since presumably there is reciprocity when it comes to agreeing each other’s arrangements?
Can the Minister also say if any UK public authorities have yet sought to obtain data directly from US-based telecommunications operators under the terms of the 2019 COPOA Act using an overseas production order? If so, on how many occasions? Likewise, have any US public authorities sought to obtain data from UK-based service providers under the same, or similar, arrangements? If so, on how many occasions? Have assurances been given in relation to the non-use of the death penalty, and has protection been given to journalistic sources and material? Finally, is the Investigatory Powers Commissioner likely to be using statutory oversight and compliance powers in relation to agreements between the UK and any other countries apart from the US?
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate and the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, for his brief appearance. I could not keep up with the questions from the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, so I have missed some bits out. I hope to pick them up in the answers to other questions, but I will write to him if not.
I was very pleased to hear the opening remarks from the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett; I thought he would be supportive. He admitted to never having heard of the UK National Authority for Counter Eavesdropping. I join him in that: neither have I. It is the national authority for technical security and counter-eavesdropping. It helps the Government on technical espionage attacks by hostile state actors. Its capabilities and purpose are distinct and focus on countering close-access technical operations that could ultimately damage national security.
As he will know only too well, hostile state actors currently have the desire and the means to gain access to or otherwise compromise the integrity of highly classified communications systems and secure facilities. They are known to be able to carry out close-attack technical attacks, as demonstrated by the attack on the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons in The Hague by the Russian intelligence services in 2018. In that case, the Dutch authorities were able to detect and apprehend the agents involved, along with a car full of equipment.
We assessed that Russia and other hostile state actors, particularly China, will continue to attempt to disrupt, attack and commit espionage in the UK. I do not think any noble Lords in the Committee would disagree with that. The Intelligence and Security Committee’s recent report into the interference by Russia in UK democracy demonstrates intent, capability and, indeed, tenacity.
There is also the insider threat to consider, whereby an individual in an organisation may place a device for eavesdropping purposes. Insider threats can be from corrupt, compromised, disgruntled staff or from contractors. They can be among the hardest threats to identify. In order to fulfil its role, the UK National Authority for Counter Eavesdropping needs to be able to identify illicit and covert eavesdropping devices that may be present in sensitive and classified areas and then identify the user behind the device using communications data. We are now all experts in that particular agency.
There were a number of questions, particularly from the noble Lords, Lord Paddick and Lord Foulkes, about agencies being added and taken away, about why that happens and about the purposes of the various agencies that have been added. For clarity, the authorities we are talking about are the Pensions Regulator, the Civil Nuclear Constabulary, the Environment Agency and the Insolvency Service. It was right that those powers were removed in 2015, just as it is right for them to be reinstated now. We cannot foresee how operational requirements will evolve in response to the crimes that public authorities are investigating. We need to have the option to add and remove authorities depending on the necessity of the powers; the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, was right that it is nothing to do with the coalition. This is precisely why the IPA included the power to add and remove bodies from Schedule 4.
These authorities have all demonstrated a strong necessity and proportionality case against similar criteria that the Home Office applied when removing powers in 2015. Those criteria were: the statutory responsibilities of the authorities with access; the seriousness of the offences that they investigate; and the number of requests that they made. As is demonstrated by the case of the Civil Nuclear Constabulary in particular, which does not expect to use the powers often, assessing the volume of applications made is perhaps not the most effective of criteria for deciding which bodies should be listed in Schedule 4. The risk here is just too high to ignore. A public authority can make infrequent use of powers, yet still lead on investigations where communications data is critical.
I congratulate my noble friend Lord Naseby on celebrating his diamond wedding anniversary today.
Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
In fact, I think I ought to congratulate his wife more than him on enduring 60 years of marital bliss with my noble friend.
My noble friend talked about local fly-tipping. That is precisely the type of thing for which the Environment Agency might wish to use its communications data powers to protect the natural environment. Its statutory duties include the protection of the environment, natural resources and, of course, human health, which fly-tipping affects. It prosecutes offences that create serious risks of harm to people and the environment, such as illegal landfills and hazardous waste disposal—that might come under my noble friend’s question—and treatment and shipments. Its remit encompasses more than 400 different offences and it encounters some 40,000 suspected offences each year. Of course, we know that waste crime costs the economy in excess of £600 million a year.
Back in 2018, the Secretary of State for the Environment announced an independent review into waste crime, which published the report Independent Review into Serious and Organised Crime in the Waste Sector. That report recommended that the Home Office grant communications data powers under Part 3 of the Investigatory Powers Act. We have a duty to respond to that recommendation.
My noble friend asked about the DHSC. Its inclusion has nothing to do with financial matters; it is purely because its name has changed. He also talked about the Pensions Regulator. It is sad to say so, but criminality in pensions is not only a present threat but a growing one. It is recognised as a risk by the Pensions Regulator and its supporting regulatory partners, including the Serious Fraud Office, the National Crime Agency and HMRC. Having previously referred cases to law enforcement partners to prosecute, the Pensions Regulator now actively leads on these types of investigations and the prosecution of offenders. As my noble friend will appreciate, communications data will be a vital tool in assisting these investigations.
The Pensions Regulator took ownership of Project Bloom from the NCA in 2016. Bloom is a multiagency approach to pension scams and fraud. The Pensions Regulator can evidence £500 million-worth of scams in its regulatory remit, which is quite significant. It estimates that the ongoing threat runs into several billion pounds. Through Project Bloom, the Pensions Regulator has been running a communications campaign with the FCA featuring national television advertising campaigns, which noble Lords may well have seen.
The noble Lord also asked about states, such as Delaware, that do not co-operate. It is to companies rather than states that these requests will be made. That is an important point. Overseas territories do not use it.
The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, asked about the review. It has not yet appeared because the agreement is not yet in force. I am sure that when it is the review will be forthcoming.
The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, asked about temporary powers. Those statutory powers will last for one year. He asked about the IPCO’s role in all this. It will cover its role in the agreement and in the annual report, which is publicly available.
The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, rightly asked about the business cases, which I did not go into at great length because they are sensitive and extremely lengthy. Reflecting on that thought, I am very happy to organise a private session to go through the business cases for interested noble Lords. The noble Lord also asked about the consultation period under the Investigatory Powers Act. A 12-week period is required for consultation with relevant public authorities and the IPCO on Schedule 4 changes.
The noble Lords, Lord Paddick and Lord Rosser, asked how many organisations have applied and been turned down. I do not know the answer to that question, but I can find out. They also covered the death penalty assurances, which they know are being sought. It was interesting that we have received assurances from the US that should the UK accede to the 2015 MLA request by transferring evidence, the death penalty will not be sought or imposed in any prosecution in the recent case of Kotey and Elsheikh. I hope noble Lords will understand—I know they will—that it would not be appropriate to comment any further while legal challenges are ongoing in that case.
The noble Lords, Lord Rosser and Lord Paddick, talked about additional resources. They are well-versed in our ambitions for 20,000 police officers. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, also asked about lowering the rank. Quite simply, no lowering of the rank is required. On the ISC, it is not a requirement in the legislation already using the enhanced procedure—laid for 40 days and debated in both Houses—but I fundamentally agree with the noble Lords that engagement with the ISC is an important factor.
The final question to which I have an answer is about safeguards, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. I am sure the IPCO will lay out any concerns the commissioner has in his annual report, particularly on any safeguarding issues around the whole regime.
I will leave it there for now. I will attempt to answer any questions I have not answered in writing.
Motion agreed.
Functions of the Investigatory Powers Commissioner (Oversight of the Data Access Agreement between the United Kingdom and the United States of America and of functions exercisable under the Crime (Overseas Production Orders) Act 2019) Regulations 2020
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Williams of Trafford
That the Grand Committee do consider the Functions of the Investigatory Powers Commissioner (Oversight of the Data Access Agreement between the United Kingdom and the United States of America and of functions exercisable under the Crime (Overseas Production Orders) Act 2019) Regulations 2020.
Relevant documents: 23rd Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)
My Lords, that completes the business before the Grand Committee today. I remind Members to wipe their desks and chairs before leaving the room.
House of Lords
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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Arrangement of Business
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
My Lords, the Hybrid Sitting of the House will now begin. I welcome noble Lords back and bid you all good afternoon. Some Members are here in the Chamber, respecting social distancing, others are participating remotely, but all Members will be treated equally.
Death of a Member: Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
My Lords, I regret to inform the House of the death of the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan, on 26 August. On behalf of the House, I extend our very sincere condolences to the noble Lord’s family and friends.
Retirements of Members
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
My Lords, I should next like to notify the House of the retirement, with effect from 31 August, of the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Williams of Oystermouth, and the noble Lord, Lord Jones of Birmingham, and, with effect from today, of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope, pursuant to Section 1 of the House of Lords Reform Act 2014. On behalf of the House, I should like to thank all the noble Lords for their much-valued service to the House over the years.
Oral Questions will now begin. Please will those asking supplementary questions keep them short and confined to two points? I ask that Ministers’ answers are also brief.
EU: Non-financial Services
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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The Earl of Clancarty
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they have made on a trade deal between the United Kingdom and the European Union in respect of non-financial services.
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
My Lords, we have discussed non-financial services in all seven negotiating rounds to date and have identified large areas of common ground. However, in some areas the EU has been unable to match our ambition. In the interests of compromise, we have agreed to use the EU’s services proposal as the starting point for a text-based negotiation, although the Commission’s insistence on parallel progress in other areas is currently impeding our efforts to agree a consolidated text.
The Earl of Clancarty (CB)
My Lords, a no deal for services would be disastrous for a sector already under immense strain from Covid. Does the Minister agree that, out of the range of concerns voiced by industries, including IT and creative services, it is essential that a suitable mobility framework is in place by the end of the year? For the music industry, will the Government negotiate a two-year, multi-entry visa, or ensure that the commitments in mode 4 are extended to include touring under the free-trade agreement? An appropriate solution for all services would be beneficial to both the EU and the UK.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I fully agree with the noble Earl on the importance of the creative industries, particularly music, for which he is such a doughty champion. Some of the points he raises today have been raised with my colleagues in DCMS, and there are difficulties. Monsieur Barnier has labelled some of our proposals, which I referred to in my Answer, as “freedom of movement for service suppliers”—which I hope shows that we are trying our level best to do the best. We are seeking to lock in, on a reciprocal basis, only arrangements that the UK already has with third countries.
Lord Dobbs (Con) [V]
Has my noble friend noticed that over the summer months our trade negotiators have been making excellent progress in trade talks with Japan, the United States and others, yet the EU seems to be the odd one out? Is the confusion in the EU due to the fact that its Trade Commissioner had to resign and it did not get round to appointing a replacement, even at such a crucial time—or might it be because the EU is still trying to cherry-pick the negotiating agenda, insisting that we give it what it wants on fishing rights in British waters and on jurisdiction before it deals with other matters? Why is the EU alone in surrounding itself with despondency and difficulty?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I am not quite as adept as my noble friend, but I try never to bring too much despondency to the House. The Government’s position is that we still very much hope that we will get a fruitful and excellent agreement, but my noble friend is right to say that major difficulties remain and that the EU’s insistence on progress on state aid and fisheries is an obstacle to making progress overall.
Lord Whitty (Lab) [V]
My Lords, nearly three years ago I chaired an inquiry into non-financial services. As far as I can see, and from what the Minister says, virtually none of the concerns of those sectors has yet resulted in an actual agreement, even in draft. It would of course be helpful if the Minister could undertake to get his department to reply to each of the recommendations in that report but, for today, perhaps he could respond on just two sectors. On the creative industries—music, film, broadcasting and theatre in particular—what progress has been made for reciprocal provisions on intellectual property, free movement, particularly mode 4, and even such basic things as transportation of musical instruments and theatrical scenery, for example? On transport, specifically aviation—I declare my vice-presidency of BALPA in the first sector—and road haulage, aside from any short-term contingency provisions—
Lord Whitty (Lab)
Progress has to be made on obtaining long-term reciprocal EU-UK arrangements for those sectors.
The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
Before the Minister replies, I remind Members that we have now gone for four and a half minutes and have had only two questions. If people could keep their questions short, it would be much appreciated by the House.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I cannot answer all the questions that the noble Lord has asked, for the reasons discussed, but I will seek out the answer to his question on his report. So far as reciprocal arrangements are concerned, I repeat what I said earlier: namely, that the Government are seeking to make progress but there are technical delays in the negotiations as a result of the EU’s position.
Baroness Ludford (LD) [V]
My Lords, historically the UK led in the push for freedom to provide services across the EU, but now the Government’s determination to leave the single market and to privilege regulatory autonomy over market access and, even worse, their cavalier attitude to no deal risk sacrificing our trade in services, which represents over 80% of our economy and 30 million jobs, and nearly half our exports with a trade surplus with the EU. Any action can only mitigate the damage. Lawyers, musicians and other creative artists, IT consultants and truck drivers all depend on the ability to move freely to work. Many services are also bundled into the production of goods. These sectors are already reeling from the Covid shutdown. What real hope can the Government, who are rejoicing in ending free movement, genuinely offer these professionals regarding their ability to continue to earn a living from the mobility of working in the EU?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, the people of the United Kingdom voted to leave the single market. The Government have tabled proposals in a number of the areas that the noble Baroness referred to, and I have commented on the reasons for some of the current difficulties in making progress.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]
My Lords, further to the question from my noble friend Lord Whitty, what assessment have the Government made of the concerns raised by the chair of the DCMS Select Committee about the impact on any adequacy agreement on personal data if the mooted free trade agreement with the US includes Section 230 of the US Communications Decency Act?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, in the interests of time, I will write, if I may, to the noble Lord with a detailed response on that point.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
My noble friend will be aware that the withdrawal agreement does not protect the rights of representation of UK trademark and design professionals in the European Union Intellectual Property Office, while it does protect the rights of EEA professionals to work in the UK for an extended period, when there will be a great deal of new work at the UK IPO. What plans do HMG have to make these arrangements reciprocal?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, the Government are committed to protecting IP to a very high level and are proposing a chapter in the free trade agreement based on precedence to reflect this. Both the EU and the United Kingdom are IP-intensive economies and we need to make progress. My noble friend is right in relation to rights of representation that flow from the single market, and I assure her that these issues are currently very much in the mind of the Government.
Baroness Wheatcroft (Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, what revenue does the Treasury receive from non-financial services and, in the event of no deal, how does it propose to replace that revenue?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I do not have in my brief the precise figure that the noble Baroness has asked for, so, as I promised earlier in relation to another question, I will write to her with that. The Government’s overall objective is to sustain, develop and increase the viability of our magnificent non-financial services and creative services.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, information on the Department for International Trade website that I accessed this morning shows that we have made agreements with countries representing only 8% of UK trade in goods and services. If we ended the year on that basis, it would be catastrophic for the British economy, as I am sure the Minister would agree. What is the Government’s target for the amount of trade that we will be doing with the world under free trade agreements—if indeed the Government have a target at all?
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, the Government’s target is to seek friendly agreements with the widest possible range of nations, including the European Union, and I am confident that the figure that the noble Lord cites will be greatly exceeded by the end of the year.
Lord Bowness (Con) [V]
There are 120 days until 31 December. We know what has not been agreed, because that is in the newspapers, and we know what the Government have chosen not to pursue in the agreement—namely, security and defence—but we do not know what has been raised and what has been agreed, subject of course to “Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed”. Will my noble friend undertake to provide a Statement to Parliament setting out exactly what has been agreed, which aspirations we have put forward and which have been completely rejected? This is not interfering with the negotiations; it is informing Parliament and the public.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, the Government are not giving a running commentary on the negotiations. We remain in close contact with our EU counterparts. There were discussions yesterday and we look forward to the next round of talks in London next week. I can promise my noble friend that we will publish the agenda for that next round towards the end of the week as usual.
The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. I apologise to the two Members who have been excluded.
Green Investment Fund
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the total amount of public investment in carbon intensive sectors, including air travel, car manufacturing and road building; and what comparison they have made between that level of investment and the amounts available to the Green Investment Fund.
Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, the Government are committed to a green recovery with concern for our environment at its heart. This summer we announced £2 billion for the green homes grant to help people to reduce energy bills and cut carbon, and £2 billion over the course of this Parliament to increase walking and cycling.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
I thank the Minister for her reply. What I was trying to ferret out with this Question was the discrepancy between the Government’s support for environmentally damaging sectors of the economy and the tiny amounts of money given to green sectors. We are in a climate emergency. The Green Party has a fully costed manifesto, and I would be happy to sit down with the Minister to go through some policies that would pay dividends in recovering our environment.
Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, our economy is not yet in a net-zero status, so to support the economy during the time of coronavirus we have invested in sectors that might contribute carbon. However, I disagree with the noble Baroness about the level of investment that the Government have put into green recovery. In addition to the £4 billion that I just referred to, there is an extra £1 billion for ultra-low emission vehicles and £800 million for carbon capture and storage, in addition to the Clean Growth Fund and a new future homes standard, which will align with the fact that we are planning to build, build, build to get the clean homes that we need.
Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab) [V]
The Cameron Conservative Government showed their lack of commitment to the Green Investment Bank when they took the short-sighted step of privatising it and then mishandling the sale. Could the Minister outline in what ways a second green investment bank will be more effective and, importantly, how its success will be evaluated?
Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, the reason for moving the Green Investment Bank into the private sector in 2017 was to allow it to raise equity from private finance sources to increase the amount of investment going into these sectors. In addition, the Government have launched the Clean Growth Fund, a venture capital fund that will match fund with a charity that invests in new businesses looking to accelerate the commercialisation of innovative new technologies.
Baroness Boycott (CB)
On 29 June this year there was a Question about reducing emissions and ensuring sustainable aviation. The Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Vere of Norbiton, responded that the Jet Zero Council had recently been set up and would look at these issues. Could the Minister report to the House on the progress of those discussions and whether there is any further progress in investing in sustainable aviation, such as the electrification of short-haul flights and cleaner fuels?
Baroness Penn (Con)
I am afraid I have to tell the noble Baroness that I do not have the details of the progress of that particular initiative with me. I will write to her on that matter.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]
My Lords, will my noble friend take this opportunity to examine the damage to the economy, as well as the reduced impact on the environment, of the collapse of the aviation sector as a result of Covid-19? Will this be taken into consideration regarding future investment and assessment of the impact on the environment?
Baroness Penn (Con)
My Lords, the Government take into account both the economic and climate impacts of the aviation sector. As that sector seeks to rebuild after the virus, we need to invest in technologies to ensure that that can be done in a greener way.
Lord Oates (LD)
My Lords, does the Minister recognise that the anger of the Extinction Rebellion protesters outside Parliament relates directly to our failure inside Parliament, particularly the gaping chasm between the Government’s rhetoric on climate change and their actions? Will they at least begin to bridge that gap by instituting a comprehensive green investment plan, including investment in green hydrogen and clean battery production, so that the UK economy is not once again left catastrophically behind the curve?
Baroness Penn (Con)
I am afraid I have to disagree with the sentiments the noble Lord expressed in that question. We have announced, including in the summer economic update, billions of pounds for a green recovery to support our economy. The evidence from fiscal stimulus packages in response to the global financial crisis showed that green policies can support short-term jobs—indeed, more short-term jobs than traditional stimulus. That is why the Government are investing in a green recovery.
Lord Randall of Uxbridge (Con) [V]
I welcome the Government’s green homes grant scheme. How are they publicising this excellent scheme to ensure the widest possible uptake?
Baroness Penn (Con)
I reassure my noble friend that last week we launched an eligibility checker on the Simple Energy Advice website so that homeowners and landlords can find out what measures they are eligible for. Another important part of making this scheme work is for tradespeople to sign up for TrustMark status to deliver the scheme. We will be investing more in publicising the scheme to tradespeople and those who may benefit over the next few weeks and months.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]
My Lords, the Minister mentioned the Clean Growth Fund, but I am right in saying that it is limited to £40 million at the moment, so there is a bit of a gap in the investment required. In July the Energy Minister said that the transition to a greener economy would require a huge amount of investment. Although it might be seen as another U-turn, is the answer not another green bank?
Baroness Penn (Con)
The Clean Growth Fund has £20 million of government investment, but that is matched pound for pound by CCLA, one of the UK’s largest charity fund managers. As I referred to in response to previous questions, that is not the limit of the Government’s investment in clean growth, which runs to billions of pounds.
Lord Bradshaw (LD) [V]
My Lords, are the Government fully committed to the undertakings that they made in the Paris Agreement in 2015? If so, when do they expect emissions to fall in line with that agreement?
Baroness Penn (Con)
The Government remain completely committed to the commitments they made in Paris. Emissions are falling and the Government set out in their carbon budgets their plan to meet their targets in each period that those carbon budgets cover.
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab) [V]
My Lords, success for the £800 million of public investment in carbon capture and storage that the Minister referred to depends on a credible business model; the previous two competitions failed because of the absence of one. When will the Government publish their response to the eight-week consultation on CCUS business models that ended a year ago?
Baroness Penn (Con)
I am afraid I do not have a date for the noble Lord for the response to that consultation, but I can say that at Spring Budget 2020 the Government announced at least £800 million to support this sector in two industrial clusters. We aim to have the first one up and running by the mid-2020s.
Lord Berkeley (Lab) [V]
My Lords, will the Minister use this opportunity to commit the Government to phasing out any further support for the aviation and motor sectors by the end of this financial year unless they obtain legally binding commitments from the companies concerned that are firmly and transparently tied to achieving our zero-carbon targets? If she will not do that, can she explain why not?
Baroness Penn (Con)
Of course the Government want to support business and industry during this difficult time. We do not see a tension between getting our economy back on its feet now and meeting our longer-term targets on climate change action.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, the Government are urging us to abandon home-working and to return to our offices with the old daily commute, but travelling to work creates harmful emissions. What assessment have the Government made of the impact of the return to the daily commute on both climate change and the health of the population?
Baroness Penn (Con)
As we can see from a slightly busier House today than before Recess, some noble Lords have returned to a bit of a commute. I do not think there has to be a contribution to climate change from commuting. That is why we have invested £2 billion in walking and cycling, which can contribute to people’s well-being. One of the things that we have seen during the pandemic is more flexible working structures that may allow people to get away from just peak travel. That can reduce congestion and reduce the impact on climate change.
The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. I congratulate those who took part.
Childhood Obesity
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)
My Lords, we published Tackling Obesity: Empowering Adults and Children to Live Healthier Lives on 27 July. The strategy demonstrates an overarching campaign to reduce obesity, takes forward actions from previous chapters of the childhood obesity plan and sets out measures to get the nation fit and healthy, protect against Covid-19 and protect the NHS.
Lord Dubs (Lab) [V]
My Lords, if the Government persist in abolishing Public Health England, who will be responsible for policies to tackle obesity? Secondly, does the Minister agree that tackling obesity, especially childhood obesity, requires more than a few policy headlines but rather a whole-government approach that includes healthcare, education, local government, transport, finance, the built environment, sports provision, advertising—especially social media—and scientific research, plus a focus on preschool children, disadvantaged groups and involving young people themselves?
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, I pay tribute to those at Public Health England who brought together the obesity strategy announced in July and who will continue to work on the obesity strategy. We are consulting on where the ultimate home for that team should be. I emphasise that the obesity strategy launched in July was the most holistic and joined-up piece of policy on obesity in recent times. I emphasise that the money that has come from the sugar tax is now going to pay for sports in schools.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, referred to the need for what the IPPR—in a report from last week that I am sure the Minister is aware of—called a “whole society” approach. The current strategy focuses on a few aspects of consumption. Will the Government consider the issue of production and the fact that large multinational companies are making huge profits from unhealthy products, particularly in the beverage sector? What will the Government do to make sure that they make a larger contribution to solving the problem they have created?
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, I welcome the IPPR report, but it is not true that the Government do not have a whole-society approach. Our approach to obesity involves physical education, supporting underprivileged families, addressing issues with marketing and a whole range of different issues. As for the noble Baroness’s points on profit, this Government are not against profit, but we are for healthy outcomes for young people.
Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen (Con)
My Lords, clearly prevention is better than cure and there is no panacea. However, there seems to be some evidence that, where families are brought together in family programmes to help them bring about behavioural change, there is more likelihood of them sticking to a healthier lifestyle. I ask my noble friend the Minister whether these programmes are ongoing and, if not, whether they can be started again and rolled out countrywide? It seems that, if families are brought together to help them think about behavioural change, this could be one way of tackling the obesity crisis.
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Chisholm, for her expertise in this matter. She is entirely right that decisions made by families together are more powerful than those made by individuals. The obesity campaign launched in July seeks to achieve exactly that by having a campaign on better health targeted at the whole population. I also emphasise the Healthy Start vouchers, a scheme to provide a nutritional safety net to hundreds of thousands of pregnant women and families with children aged under four, which is one way of bringing families together around healthy food.
Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)
School nurses play important roles in dietary education for new parents and school pupils. With the anticipated changes to Public Health England, how will the Government ensure, without structured plans, that these services are strengthened to promote healthy eating and exercise to prevent early childhood obesity?
Lord Bethell (Con)
The noble Baroness is entirely right that these nurses play an absolutely pivotal role. The reorganisation around PHE is due to start in April. We are seeking the best possible advice on where that work could be best sited. The National Institute for Health Protection is one potential home, but I reassure the Chamber that a safe and important home for those nurses is a priority for the Government.
Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab) [V]
My Lords, obesity is overwhelmingly a problem of deprived communities. Therefore, does the Minister agree that initiatives on child obesity need to be tackled by communities themselves, supported, of course, by adequate government funding. How are the Government encouraging such activity—for example, by harnessing the power of food banks, parents, schools, clubs and children themselves—to develop local solutions?
Lord Bethell (Con)
The noble Baroness has a point on the importance of targeting the right populations and there are certainly some demographics that incur higher incidences of obesity and for which the health disbenefits of obesity are higher. For these, we have special programmes to support them in schools with vouchers and medical interventions. However, obesity is a national problem that affects all parts of society. In Britain we have got it wrong and we need to address this issue as a nation.
Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD) [V]
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, rightly emphasised the link between deprivation and childhood obesity. Therefore, while welcoming the announcement of the Government’s obesity strategy, I ask the Minister: what specific steps are the Government taking to address the links between deprivation and obesity; how will this be funded; and what plans do they have to introduce policies with a more explicit focus on early years to reduce childhood obesity rates?
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, there are individual programmes specifically targeting those from deprived backgrounds. I emphasise the childhood obesity trailblazer programme, which has funding for several councils to pioneer forward-thinking ideas to address childhood obesity among those target populations.
The other area that I emphasise is exercise in school. Of course, obesity is linked to intake, not exercise, but exercise helps to get the disciplines right around looking after one’s mind and body. The £320 million going into school sports facilities is a massive bonus in this area.
Baroness Wyld (Con)
My Lords, could my noble friend say, a little more specifically, what training and support will be available to health visitors for the very earliest intervention? Would not the one-year and two-year checks that the majority of children go along to be an ideal opportunity to inform parents about the nutritional needs of very young children so that they can make those informed choices?
Lord Bethell (Con)
Health checks in the early years of childhood are an incredibly valuable opportunity to intervene in a number of health inputs. Diet and exercise are two of those. Training is in place for health visitors to provide dietary advice but, when back at the department, I will ask whether we are working on any new initiatives at the moment and write back to my noble friend.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
I have two questions for the Minister. Could he explain to the House why Professor Dame Sally Davies’ 2019 report on childhood obesity, which made 49 recommendations, seems to have been lost? Given that Public Health England plays a crucial role in addressing obesity, as my noble friend Lord Dubs said, and the obesity team seems to be homeless at present, how will the Government ensure that its expertise, accountability and leadership is retained and relevant bodies are sufficiently funded?
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, the report from Professor Sally Davies has not been lost; the July obesity strategy leans extremely heavily on the insight and advice of Sally Davies, who continues to have a strong presence in the department and informs all our decisions, as does the public health team at PHE. Professor John Newton had an extremely high profile during the launch of the obesity strategy in July and continues to have an important voice at all levels of the department.
Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB) [V]
In her 2019 report, the Chief Medical Officer pointed out that, when we leave the European Union, it will be open to the Government to alter VAT rates. She recommended that healthy foods should remain without VAT, as they are at the moment, but that there should be a tiered approach to unhealthy foods and drinks as far as VAT is concerned. What is the Government’s response to this recommendation?
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, the Government are not planning a review of VAT at present.
The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.
Covid-19: Self-isolation Payment Scheme
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Sherlock
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the eligibility criteria for the new payment scheme for people self-isolating and unable to work from home in areas with a high incidence of COVID-19.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)
My Lords, to be eligible for this payment, individuals must live in Blackburn with Darwen, Oldham or Pendle and have been asked to self-isolate by Test and Trace, be employed or self-employed, stand to lose income because they are unable to work from home while self-isolating, and receive at least one of the following benefits: universal credit, working tax credit, income-related employment and support allowance, income-based jobseeker’s allowance, income support or pension credit or housing benefit.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I am grateful. People are told to quarantine as soon as they have symptoms and wherever they live. Can I ask the Minister two questions? First, why is the payment only for those who have had a positive test or been told to isolate by NHS test and trace? Secondly, the Government’s description of the scheme says that it is intended only for those in high-infection areas, but if there is an outbreak elsewhere, in a care home or a factory, do those workers not need support? If they cannot afford to stay at home, does that not risk creating a new high-infection area?
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, the reality of the epidemic is that it targets some communities in specific areas with laser-like focus. The feedback from some of those communities, local authorities and community leaders is that support is needed in some areas where there has been a local lockdown. We have responded to those suggestions and put this financial support in place for specific communities in specific areas. In that, we are responding to local suggestions.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab) [V]
My Lords, can the Minister explain the evidence base for the decision that £13 a day would be sufficient to persuade low-paid workers to forgo their earnings and self-isolate?
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, I am not sure that I heard all the question. Can I just explain that those who are isolated for 10 days will receive £130? Other eligible members of their household who have been self-isolating will also be entitled to a payment. Eligible non-household contacts instructed to stay at home and to self-isolate will also be entitled to a payment of up to £182.
Lord Scriven (LD)
My Lords, what is the difference in the Government agreeing to pay only certain low-paid people £13 a day to do their civic duty to stop the spread of a deadly virus, but up to £70 a day for anyone to serve on a jury?
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, I do not see that there is a parallel between the two.
Baroness Warsi (Con) [V]
My Lords, what current criteria are the Government using to determine local lockdowns? In the light of reports from Manchester today, what improvements, if any, have been made in the area of local consultation and the imposition of a local lockdown since the decisions of 30 June in Leicester?
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, a huge amount of data, both national and local, gets put into the local lockdown process during the gold meetings of the JBC. The liaison between gold and local authorities and local MPs has been improved and upgraded massively in the last few weeks. I cannot share any update from the JBC meetings today.
Lord Loomba (CB) [V]
My Lords, there are many situations where citizens are being mandated to self-isolate or quarantine, such as specific workplaces or specific countries or, as we have seen at the weekend, with the flight from Zante. However, those people may not live in areas with high incidence of Covid-19. In these circumstances, how will such people be covered by any benefits so that the choice is not between feeding themselves or health protection for anyone affected?
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, under the current scheme, benefits are provided to those who live in Blackburn with Darwen, Oldham or Pendle. It does not extend to other areas. We will assess the impact of this scheme and review whether it should or could be extended in any way.
Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab) [V]
My Lords, support for the most vulnerable in undertaking self-isolation should not just, as suggested, be a matter of financial support, important though that is. It should include emotional and mental health support to the household. Does the Minister agree? What provision is being made for this sort of support? In so far as it is provided by local authorities, will adequate funding be made available to them?
Lord Bethell (Con)
The noble Lord is entirely right. The decision to isolate is extremely tough for a great many people, both economically and psychologically. The importance of isolation is absolutely critical in our battle against Covid. We have to think of ways of supporting people in every way we can. That is the responsibility of local authorities, and we have provided them with £300 million of funding to support their isolation, test and trace programme. I would like to pay tribute to local authorities that are doing a fantastic job of putting support in place for those who are isolating in expectation of the winter.
Lord Greaves (LD) [V]
My Lords, I speak from Pendle, and declare my interests, where council staff and the council leadership are working heroically in the front line of the Covid battle. This is a welcome although very small step. Is the Minister aware, though, that our determination to test, test, test and find positive cases is greatly hindered by the inefficient and failing national tracking, contact and isolate system and by the complex, obscure and bureaucratic way in which decisions on local restrictions and support are being made? Will the Government give much more authority and resources to local people with the skills and local knowledge that are needed, particularly in tracking down local contacts and persuading them to co-operate? Give us the tools and we will get on with the job.
Lord Bethell (Con)
The noble Lord gives fascinating testimony, and I pay tribute to the council in Pendle, which is well known for its energetic approach in dealing with the epidemic. I honestly say a massive thank you to all those in Pendle who are working so hard. Despite what the noble Lord has just said, they are being successful. The strategy is working and they are fighting the disease and breaking the chains of transmission, and we are all hopeful that Pendle will be restored to normal life as soon as possible. Our approach is to give those on the ground the tools they need, exactly as the noble Lord asks. I am hopeful that that is happening. I hear reports that it is, and that is very much the emphasis of our approach.
Lord Wigley (PC) [V]
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that if local spikes appear around the United Kingdom, this scheme will be available to them? Will it be available in Glasgow, for example? Can he confirm that enough flexibility will be allowed to those administrating the scheme to ensure that those who need the scheme, whose circumstances will vary greatly, will be able to get it quickly and expeditiously?
Lord Bethell (Con)
The noble Lord asks a wide-ranging set of questions. We are looking at the effectiveness of the scheme. We are working with DAs to see whether the scheme could or should be extended in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Once that review is done and we have assessed its impact, we will be able to make decisions of the kind he describes.
Lord Polak (Con)
The headline figure of £13 can be, and has been, taken out of context. Can my noble friend the Minister reconfirm that the payment will not impact existing benefit entitlements?
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, the payment itself will not affect existing benefits in any way. Payments through the scheme will, though, be subject to income tax and some form of national insurance contribution, in line with other support payments such as through the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme.
Baroness Primarolo (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I return to the question asked by my noble friend Lady Lister. What was the evidence base for the decision that £13 a day would be sufficient to persuade low-paid workers to forgo their earnings and therefore self-isolate? The Minister did not answer the question the first time round; perhaps he could answer it now. What were the criteria?
Lord Bethell (Con)
The evidence base and criteria were our discussions with local authorities and community leaders on what an effective amount would be that would tip the balance in a personal decision to isolate. As I said earlier, those personal decisions are extremely tough. It was agreed with local infection teams and authorities that this was the kind of sum that would make a difference.
The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed, and that concludes Question Time.
Arrangement of Business
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)
My Lords, hybrid proceedings will now resume. Some Members are here in the Chamber, respecting social distancing; others are participating remotely, but all Members will be treated equally. If the capacity of the Chamber is exceeded, I will immediately adjourn the House.
Aid Spending
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Sheehan
To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the establishment of the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, what plans they have to maintain the requirement to spend 0.7 per cent of Gross National Income on aid.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth & Development Office (Baroness Sugg) (Con)
My Lords, the commitment to spending 0.7% of our national income on aid is a manifesto commitment and is enshrined in law. As the PM has made clear, the new Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office will maximise the impact of our aid budget to help the world’s poorest, while making sure that we get the best value for money for the UK taxpayer.
Baroness Sheehan (LD)
My Lords, in an article in this week’s Sunday Times on the Chancellor’s possible tax rises was this line:
“Treasury officials are also examining ways of siphoning cash from the foreign aid budget.”
Given that £2.9 billion has already been cut from UK aid this year, going further would mean repealing legislation. From the same article was this quote:
“A source said: ‘Foreign aid is being looked at as well’.”
Quite simply, can the Minister say whether such media reports over the last few days are wishful thinking within elements of her party, or is it a precursor to yet another government U-turn, this time on a Conservative manifesto commitment?
Baroness Sugg (Con)
My Lords, rather than focusing on unattributable media reports, I point the noble Baroness to No. 10’s confirmation yesterday that there is no change to the Government’s commitment to maintaining a 0.7% aid target. Also, the Foreign and Development Secretary today confirmed that we will continue to spend 0.7%. That is written into the law. The Prime Minister has said that we want aid capacity and development expertise; that is what we want to be the beating heart of the new department.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab)
My Lords, I have two questions. When will the first accounts for the new joint department be signed off, as they must be, by the FCO permanent secretary, and published? Secondly, on 19 June, 191 NGOs, think tanks and charities, all working on humanitarian assistance—including of course the current Covid problem—wrote to the Prime Minister protesting about this new arrangement. The doctors wrote, similarly, a couple of days later. All made the point that DfID is one of the most successful and respected aid departments anywhere in the world, and is recognised as such by everywhere else in the world. Has the Prime Minister answered those letters from the 191 NGOs and the doctors? They were written 10 weeks ago. If not, after almost 10 weeks, when will he reply?
Baroness Sugg (Con)
My Lords, departmental accounts will be published in the usual way. I reassure the noble Baroness and, indeed, the NGOs to which she referred, that of course we are listening very closely to what they say to ensure that the new department is greater than the sum of its parts, and what we want it to be. We aim to use all the tools of our influence and expertise to continue our work and development. We are a world leader in international development, as the noble Baroness says, helping to end extreme poverty in developing countries around the world. We are absolutely committed to putting UK aid at the heart of what we do in the new department. We will continue with our 0.7% and will ensure that we continue the good work that we have seen from DfID in the new FCDO.
Baroness Northover (LD) [V]
Development is global and long term, which is usually different from the aims of other government departments. Given the headlines about raiding the development budget, including from the Treasury, exactly how will her department guard against this?
Baroness Sugg (Con)
My Lords, as I hope I have made clear, we will continue our commitment to 0.7% in the new department, as was said in the Conservative Party manifesto on which we were elected, and we will proudly maintain that commitment. We must ensure that both our diplomacy and development work continues, as it has done in the two separate departments, within the new department. In our new department, we aim to pursue our national interests and project the UK as a force for good in the world, which includes safeguarding UK security, defending our values, reducing poverty and tackling the huge global challenges that we face.
Baroness Hayman (CB)
My Lords, our overseas aid programme is under a triple threat: the questioning of the commitment to 0.7%; the reduced value of the 0.7% because of the post-Covid recession; and the subverting of aid spending into quite different areas, such as defence. Does the Minister accept that an effective aid programme is, in fact, firmly in the UK’s national interest and enhances our reputation globally? Will she reassure me that spending in areas where we are acknowledged world leaders, such as malaria—I declare my interest—which was also specifically mentioned in the Conservative Party manifesto, will be safeguarded going forward?
Baroness Sugg (Con)
I completely agree with the noble Baroness that our work in international development is firmly in the national interest and absolutely enhances our global reputation abroad. We have been a world leader in many things, including malaria. We need to focus, rightly, on the Covid-19 response, but we must not forget or reverse the significant gains that have been made over the years. We have many proud achievements on malaria, and the UK will continue to lead the way on eradicating malaria as part of our work on ending preventable deaths.
Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne (Con)
I welcome the Minister’s comprehensive replies and have a simple question for her. On the back of my views that the merger will add greatly to UK influence in global leadership, given that public health is central to all our thinking at the moment internationally, can the Minister reassure me that, from now on, we will use our contribution to the World Health Organization, where we are in fact the largest and most powerful contributor, to the greatest possible extent? That means perhaps not just contributing, but ensuring that the WHO has reorganisation in the centre, or whatever is needed, because it has lagged a little bit, which is why we have lost the United States. Will the Minister reassure me that she will do everything she can to make Britain more powerful in the World Health Organization dimension?
Baroness Sugg (Con)
As my noble friend says, we are a leading donor to the WHO. We have already pledged £75 million to help it to lead international efforts to stop the spread of the virus and then the pandemic. The UK has long been an advocate for reform in the WHO. We want to see the WHO continue to learn lessons on how to improve its response to global health emergencies. The new department will help us in this aim, bringing together our diplomatic engagement with the WHO and other bilateral donors, and also our development funding, for the first time.
The Lord Bishop of Bristol
My Lords, I have personally seen through the Anglican Communion’s worldwide partnerships the positive impact that the UK’s overseas aid has made to alleviating poverty. I share the concerns of other Peers about the reports of the Government’s intent to overturn the legal commitment to spend 0.7% of gross national income on aid. At the risk of tedium, I hope that the Minister will continue to give this House assurances that the Government have no such plans, which would reduce the UK’s impact under the UN sustainable development goals.
Baroness Sugg (Con)
I thank the right reverend Prelate for her question. Like her, I have seen at first hand the incredible work that church and faith groups do around the world. I assure her that we will continue to be guided by our responsibilities under the International Development Act, which of course includes a commitment to poverty reduction.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, as we have heard, there has already been a substantial reduction in real aid spending due to the contraction of our own economy. Where is the strategy? Which country programmes have been identified for closure and cuts? Does the Minister agree with the Prime Minister that we should be diverting aid from partners in countries such as Zambia and Tanzania? If so, why?
Baroness Sugg (Con)
As the noble Lord said, given the expected fall in gross national income this year, our commitments to aid spending have been reviewed across all departments. The strategy behind that was to ensure that there is continued support for the five priorities for overseas development assistance: the Bottom Billion support, poverty reduction, climate change, girls’ education and, of course, Covid-19. We want to ensure that Britain continues to play its role as a force for good in the world. That implementation is happening as we speak, and we are discussing that with suppliers. As usual, there will continue to be adjustments in year to individual departmental overspend to meet the 0.7% target, but we are absolutely focused on making sure that we continue to fund the priorities that I have outlined.
Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)
My Lords, is not the problem for the Minister that whatever she says in good faith is being undermined by persistent and detailed leaking, not least in today’s edition of the Times? The aid budget is a jewel in a very jaded foreign policy. Why should it be put at risk?
Baroness Sugg (Con)
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that it should not be put at risk. It is not at risk. I point to the comments from No. 10, from the Foreign Secretary today and, indeed, from the Prime Minister when he made his announcement to Parliament on the merger. We should be incredibly proud of the changes that 0.7% has made and continues to make in people’s lives around the world, from girls’ education to eradicating wild polio in Africa. We continue to be proud of that and to be absolutely committed to carrying on the good work of 0.7% in the new FCDO.
Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) (V)
My Lords, nothing, I suspect, could prick our collective conscience a moment more than the terrible suffering in Yemen. Can the Minister tell me how we are managing to extend some sort of help to the agencies working in that area?
Baroness Sugg (Con)
My Lords, we continue to be incredibly concerned about the situation in Yemen. In fact, we have an announcement today, given the impact of Covid-19 heightening the risk of famine in countries from Sudan through to Yemen. We are providing an extra £190 million of famine relief. At the same time, in order to leverage our diplomatic network and bring countries together, we have appointed a new envoy for famine relief and we will continue to ensure that we are giving the support to the people of Yemen that they need.
Baroness Chalker of Wallasey (Con)
Can the Minister give us more assistance in developing public health training, because it is the lack of public health training in many of the countries concerned with Covid-19 that is putting them at even greater risk than they are already? Will she also discuss with the Foreign and Development Secretary the whole question of training officials from the two participating departments, perhaps with some help from those of us who have experienced working in both departments? That way we can show the diplomats exactly why foreign aid is so critical to what they do, and help the development specialists to understand the problems faced by the diplomats.
Baroness Sugg (Con)
As my noble friend said, it is incredibly important that we think carefully about how we spend our 0.7% budget. Of course, Covid-19 has changed our perception of what we should be doing. I agree with her that we need to invest more in health training and health systems in the developing world to make sure that they are strong enough to cope with this pandemic and any others that might come in the future. I also agree with my noble friend about the importance of sharing the expertise from DfID and the FCO with the new department. There will, of course, be learnings for everybody, and I would very much like to take her up on her offer of help on that, because I know that she has many years of experience in this. I am sure that the new department would benefit from that.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)
My Lords, I welcome the Government’s reassurance on the matter of 0.7% and I should mention my entry in the register of interests. However, I do not think that the announcement at the end of July of the cuts in the budget as a result of the contraction in the economy was a good start for transparency in the new department. To announce £2.9 billion of cuts without any detail or criteria was a significant problem, so I would like the Minister to give us some assurance, first, that there will be a detailed announcement about these cuts and, secondly, that the criteria used to make the cuts will be properly announced to Parliament in due course.
Baroness Sugg (Con)
My Lords, the Foreign Secretary explained in letters to the Select Committees and placed in the Libraries of both Houses the priorities on how these decisions were made. We remain firmly committed to transparency in our aid spending. I hope noble Lords will welcome the announcement that we will continue in the Independent Commission for Aid Impact.
On the prioritisation decisions, at a minimum our DevTracker website is being updated at the end of every month. If, by the end of August, amended programmes and projects have been uploaded on to that, provisional international development statistics will be published in the usual way. Then, of course, the final international development statistics in autumn next year will include country-level data.
We do not know what the current GNI figure is, so this is an iterative process as we go, but we are absolutely determined to ensure that we are using the aid money that we have to deal with the many issues that the world faces.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)
My Lords, the time allowed for this Private Notice Question has now elapsed.
Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay
That it be an instruction to the Committee of the Whole House to which the Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill has been committed that they consider the bill in the following order:
Clause 1, Schedule 1, Clauses 2 to 5, Schedules 2 and 3, Clauses 6 to 9, Title.
Parliamentary Constituencies Bill
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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Arrangement of Business
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)
My Lords, the Hybrid Sitting of the House will now resume. Some Members are here in the Chamber, respecting social distancing, others are participating virtually, but all Members are treated equally. If the capacity of the Chamber is exceeded, I will immediately adjourn the House.
Schools and Colleges: Qualification Results and Full Opening
(3 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)
My Lords, my apologies: I thought that the noble Baroness the Minister was going to repeat the Statement.
I start by congratulating young people across the country on their GCSE and A-level results, which have caused them much more anxiety than necessary. Labour is absolutely clear: we want children back in school and we want them to stay there safely. As the shadow Secretary of State said yesterday, we will always work constructively with the Secretary of State to achieve that, and the questions that I put to the Minister should be taken in that spirit.
The vast majority of schools will reopen fully over the next few days. We welcome that, but many issues of concern remain. For example, schools were denied the necessary information to prepare for reopening, with the Government’s guidance for head teachers to plan for tier 2 restrictions only being published last Friday.
Over the past month, we have been presented with the extraordinary saga of the 2020 examinations. Ministers’ fixation on avoiding grade inflation led to the adoption of a statistical approach that was never going to survive contact with real live students. Mr Gove’s reforms to exams meant that there was no back-up to call on. It beggars belief that the Secretary of State was warned of the debacle and yet allowed such flawed results to reach publication before the inevitable retreat, thereby causing not just distress to so many students but chaos in the university sector. It seems that we have a Government that resolutely refuse to recognise problems that are so obviously coming down the road, proclaiming absolute confidence in their ostrich-like convictions until the moment of the screeching U-turn.
With regard to this summer’s exam results, can the Minister say when the Secretary of State first knew of the potential problems with the flawed standardisation approach, and what action he took as a result? The evidence given by Ofqual to the Education Committee today has raised serious questions about the Secretary of State’s role in the fiasco. We welcome the apology in the Statement but not his repeated attempts to blame Ofqual and officials for the exams crisis. It is now clear that he was responsible. The head of Ofqual has gone and the head of DfE is going. As we say in Scotland, Mr Williamson’s jaiket is on a shoogly nail.
In a helpful letter to all noble Lords last week, the noble Baroness the Minister stated:
“The relevant awarding organisations have assured the DfE that students will receive their results by this Friday.”
That was 28 August. Can the Minister say how many BTEC students have still not received their results?
On the national tutoring programme, can the noble Baroness say when it will take effect? Yesterday, the Secretary of State merely referred to “this academic year”, which is, to say the least, open-ended. Is she also aware that there is scope for the independent sector to demonstrate public benefit under its charitable status by becoming registered tutors under the programme? Not all the work should be handed to private tuition agencies, but whoever is involved it must start soon.
Finally on the return of schools, can the Minister say why early years and post-16 providers remain ineligible for the catch-up premium, and what extra support will be available for children with SEND?
Turning to the 2021 examinations, the tinkering around the edges proposed by Ofqual does not begin to address the scale of the problem that Years 11 and 13 have faced this year and will face next year. The call by teaching unions to change the exams more fundamentally is right: we need to address how we can “build back better”.
Two immediate principles should underpin exams in 2021. First, as the noble Baroness may recall, I argued—in response to the Statement of 8 July—that a plan was needed when schools returned, not in desperation as June 2021 approaches, to cope with the disruption that has already happened, and, just as importantly, for what may happen next year. A robust system does that, and it is surely a condemnation of the Government’s approach that there was no such plan this year. Failing to announce a plan that would have gone some way to reassuring students that they will not be penalised because of the possible future impact of the pandemic amounts, essentially, to a head-in-the-sand assumption that the next academic year will run smoothly and exams and progression in 2021 will operate as if nothing much has really happened. That is surely wishful thinking.
Schools, colleges and universities need time to plan. What discussions are Ministers having with the sector and UCAS to ensure that workable arrangements are in place? Can the Minister guarantee that a contingency plan will be put in place this month in case exams are disrupted again? Removing the cap on admissions by individual universities without a strategy for dealing with the fallout from that decision merely pushes the problem into next year.
Children and their families should have been the Government’s top priority over the summer, but their interests have been placed below those of the Government and Ministers. That must now change, for the good of all young people--for their education and their futures.
Lord Storey (LD)
My Lords, I was slightly confused because I thought the Minister would start by reading the Statement—I do not quite know what happened, but I have obviously got that wrong.
We welcome the fact that children and young people are returning to school, and we have to do all in our power to make this work successfully—and to make it safe. Naturally, the Government have produced reams of guidance for schools. Head teachers have told me that some of it is quite contradictory. I shall give one example. The guidance says:
“No-one should be excluded from education on the grounds that they are not wearing a face covering.”
Yet it also says that when children are walking down corridors or are in open-access areas in schools they should wear a face covering. However, the guidance says that, no, you should not be excluded or told that you had to wear one. That guidance has to be there—I understand that—but head teachers, schools and teachers are looking for simplified, easy-to-follow advice that they can adhere to.
During this period of school closures, children have fallen further and further behind, particularly disadvantaged pupils and those from BAME communities. Schools should be doing everything in their power to ensure that those children are able to catch up on those lost months of learning. I have seen it floated that the Government are considering doing some formative or summative testing to find out what the gap is and what the loss of learning is and how that can be supported. I welcome that—it is an important initiative that should happen.
I am concerned about three areas. One is that, during the period of school closures, children and young people who were excluded from school—they were not on any register because they were excluded—and those young people in alternative provision were the most vulnerable pupils in our system, and they need extra support and help. I do not know what the Government view on that should be, but alternative providers are concerned that those young people could easily get into further trouble.
Then there is the question of the 60,000 home-educated children. I strongly believe, as I suspect the Minister does, that now is the right time to introduce a policy to ensure that home-educated pupils are registered so that we know what is going on in their learning. However, I was concerned to see that external, home-schooled students have not received an A-level or GCSE grade. Could the Minister shed light on this? I am told that 20,000 students have been informed by their institutions that they will not receive a GCSE grade this year.
Let me give noble Lords the case of a young man from Oxford—I apologise to the Minister for throwing this out now and I will give her the correspondence afterwards. Due to personal reasons, he had to be home educated and do his own learning for biology, chemistry and physics at GCSE and A-level. He had a place at a university, but he has been told—I presume that this is true of other young people too—that he will not get a grade because he was an external candidate, not through a school. That is incredibly worrying. Could the Minister look at this issue?
Finally, I go back to mainstream schools. If, God forbid, a pupil is tested as Covid positive, who tells the school? Who tells the head teacher? Is it left to the parents to inform the school? Who is it left to? I am told by head teachers that there are no processes whereby the testing regime should automatically inform the head teacher. That is crucial for the well-being of schools and pupils, and to making the return to full-time education successful.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education and Department for International Trade (Baroness Berridge) (Con)
My Lords, I join the noble Lord, Lord Watson, in thanking young people for their resilience during a crisis this summer that no-one intended them to have to go through. I repeat to your Lordships’ House the apology made by the Secretary of State and in my letter to noble Lords. I thank the noble Lord for his wish to work constructively on these matters.
On schools reopening, the main guidance to put in place the hierarchy of controls, on the need for bubbles or for year groups to be kept separate in secondary schools was issued on 2 July—well in advance of the end of summer term—and enabled schools to prepare. However, for the thankfully very small number of situations where there are additional restrictions, the guidance was issued only recently.
On the noble Lord’s questions about exams, it is important to remember the principle that Ofqual was a body created by Parliament. It was created by statute and is answerable to Parliament. There are good reasons in principle why the regulation of public examinations in this country is not subject to direct government interference. It was Ofqual’s responsibility to have the data to develop the algorithm and then send that algorithm to the various examination boards. There was a reaction at the stages at which the department was made aware of additional concerns and Ofqual met regularly with the department even from before the announcement was made for exams to be cancelled. The department reacted, but Ofqual is the independent regulator.
On sharing data, in the week running up to the A-level results the system was as per any normal year. On the Monday or Tuesday some headline data is given to the department. On the Wednesday that data is shared with schools and is then published on Thursday. To respect the normal division of responsibilities between the department and Ofqual, that long-standing practice was abided by and Ministers did not see the detail of results for individual students or the schools that would have been affected.
Only a tiny fraction of BTEC examination results remains to be communicated to students. That is where further information is needed. Each year there are normally, unfortunately, a small number of results outstanding. Pearson has assured us that it is working to issue these remaining results as soon as possible.
It is envisaged that the first services from the national tutoring programme, which is being delivered by the EEF and Teach First, will be delivered in the second half of the autumn term.
On the specific questions on early years catch-up, of the £350 million tutoring programme, £8 million has been awarded to Nuffield for early language development and there was an announcement that there will be small-group tuition for disadvantaged 16 to 19 year-olds. They are now included in the catch-up.
On the issue around special educational needs students, as noble Lords will be aware, the Oak Academy’s provision of online lessons has of course included some for those with special educational needs. The guidance and the links to the various resources on the Department for Education’s website include links to these. We have been working closely with the sector. Over the next year an additional £730 million will go into the high-needs budget, meaning that it will have grown by £1.5 billion, or 24%, in just two years. We are responding on special educational needs. The £650 million of main catch-up funding going out to schools has been weighted per pupil for specialist schools, because we recognise the higher per pupil costs in those settings.
There will be a contingency plan for examinations next year. There has already been guidance on the curriculum so that schools knew what they were doing from the moment they came back. For instance, in English literature they know that pupils will potentially be examined on only three of the four set texts and there have been changes to field work in geography, et cetera. The question of whether there will be a delay was part of Ofqual’s consultation on the 2021 series, and that will be confirmed as soon as possible.
There is now a higher education task force, chaired by Michelle Donelan, the Minister for Universities, which meets regularly with Universities UK and other stakeholders to work with the sector on the implications of the change in the awarding of grades for A-levels.
Turning to the questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Storey, I specifically checked and, while it is my personal preference to read the Statement, I was told that in this hybrid situation I do not repeat it. However, I put my view that I want to read it to noble Lords because it helps.
A lot of specific guidance has had to be set out for the sector. Officials and the sector have worked very closely to try to get the right boundary in not being able to be prescriptive, because we have over 20,000 schools in about 70,000 buildings. There must be the framework and the principles for head teachers and other school leaders to make their risk assessments and the changes to their buildings.
Masks are recommended only where we have something such as a tier 2, where there is a local lockdown, but schools can advise their students on that. I hope that the guidance is not contradictory on that matter.
Disadvantaged pupils are of course a concern for noble Lords and for the department. That is why there is the £1 billion catch-up fund. On excluded pupils, many of whom will have been in alternative provision, all schools reopening includes AP schools. At the end of the summer term we announced additional funds for those leaving AP to make sure that they had additional support and did not end up not in education, employment or training. We are working to ensure that they do not fall within the gaps.
On home education specifically, yes, we are particularly concerned. Going back to the cancellation of exams and the work the exam centres did, obviously some home-educated students then register at a school and sit their examinations in that school. As far as possible, we asked those schools to evaluate the performance of that student if they had any data on which to do so, but of course there were situations in which it just was not possible. That is also about the integrity of head teachers and teachers who did not feel they could give a grade. That is why the autumn series of resits in all subjects will be so important, particularly for home-educated students.
There was a recent consultation from the department on whether to have a register with local authorities and whether to pay exam fees for home-educated students, because we are concerned about the rise in the number of home-educated students. The reasons are not, as perhaps they were 10 or 20 years ago, well-meaning parents. Some who are in home education are potentially not getting the education they deserve, but we do not have the data. I will update the House as soon as I can on what is happening with that consultation.
Finally, I thank noble Lords for their support. I hope we can work constructively, going forward.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)
My Lords, we now come to the 20 minutes allocated for Back-Bench questions. I ask that questions and answers be brief, so that I can call the maximum number of speakers.
Baroness Bull (CB)
My Lords, the combined impact of schools’ closure during lockdown and the discriminatory effect of the grading algorithm has further widened the education and attainment gap between pupils from less-advantaged backgrounds and those privileged to attend better-resourced, fee-paying schools. Can the Minister say what discussions are taking place with the independent school sector about its potential contribution to the national effort to help disadvantaged pupils catch up? For example, donating tutoring capacity or access to high-quality outdoor facilities such as sports grounds would not only help the children most in need but would justify the charitable status these schools enjoy.
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, forgive me; the noble Lord, Lord Storey, also asked about the attainment gap. At the moment the department is seeking as quickly as possible an assessment of what education has been lost and the effect on the attainment gap. We appreciate the EEF’s work, and there have been other reports. There is a procurement out at the moment so that we can assess not all pupils, obviously, but get a better base as to what has actually happened, allowing the next few weeks for things to settle down in schools. Teachers will be assessing that at the moment.
Independent schools are very keen to engage. I personally have been engaging with them through the Independent Schools Council and the Boarding Schools’ Association. They offered some summer clubs over the school holidays, but in my next meeting with them I will take to them how we can structure more their desire to help.
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, given that examinations are by their very nature socially distanced and that most schools broke just before the exam period, some of us wonder whether the wholesale cancellation of all exams was absolutely necessary. On postponing next year, the Schools Minister yesterday highlighted the need to consult the devolved Administrations. What formal structures are being considered to ensure that in future there is a properly co-ordinated approach to these matters across the whole of our United Kingdom?
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, on the cancellation of exams, I think we need to cast our minds back. At the time exams were due to start, no secondary school pupils had been back in the building and the confidence was not there among parents. I hate to think of the trauma we could have caused by children going straight from lockdown into an invigilated situation. It just was not possible, and the department was commended on a decisive decision at that moment that exams were cancelled. So, with the best will in the world, that was the right decision and we stand by it.
On communication with the four nations, only yesterday officials were in a four-nations meeting. There is regular dialogue at both ministerial and official level with the four nations. For instance, the direction letters sent by the Secretary of State to Ofqual were copied to each of his three counterparts in the nations. We are working closely. It is unfortunate for all young people that none of the four nations managed to deliver the standardisation that we had intended to deliver and believed was best for children.
Baroness Morris of Yardley (Lab)
It makes sense to have a back-up plan for the examinations next summer, and the Minister mentioned contingency plans. I am not clear whether the Government are considering anything other than a delay of four or so many weeks. There is gathering support for the idea of moderated assessments throughout the school year. Is something like that being considered by the Government? If so, why have details not already been announced? Term has started and teachers need to know how their children might be assessed before they start the academic year.
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, yes, there will be a 2021 contingency plan. As I have mentioned, Ofqual has already consulted in relation to 2021, and one of the suggestions in that consultation was a short delay to the sitting of exams. I cannot remember offhand whether moderated assessments were part of that consultation, but this highlights again the issue of what form the examinations will take. There is the direction of government policy, but then it is for Ofqual to run that. I will make sure that the idea of moderated assessments is put forward. As the noble Baroness will probably be aware, Ofqual has delegated to a sub-committee of its board chaired by Amanda Spielman, who will take forward what the system will be for examinations next year. We recognise that decisions need to be made as soon as possible.
Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD) [V]
My Lords, I refer to the register of interests; I am a Cambridge academic. The Statement the Minister did not have the opportunity to read to the House states:
“To ensure that students can progress to higher education, we intend to remove the temporary student-number controls that had been introduced for the coming academic year.”
There is then also a discussion about deferring places for students who got their grades this summer. What impact do the Government expect these changes to have on students just entering year 13? They have had their year 12 education damaged or impeded and will potentially face a challenge for places next year.
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, until students enrol at the end of this month—clearing is still going on at the moment—we will not know the enrolment for this year and the implications for higher education institutions. Obviously, the process is beginning for next year’s students, and I know that some schools used the one-on-one contact with students at the end of last term to talk to them about that process and their personal development statements. Of course, there are offers of deferral to next year for this year’s students, as an option when courses are full and they do not want to be on a substitute course this year. Further details of the impact on next year and the decisions that need to be made will be given as soon as possible.
Lord Birt (CB) [V]
My Lords, I ask the Minister to define conceptually for education—and indeed for other Whitehall departments—where power, responsibility and accountability begin and end, both for the now-misnamed Permanent Secretaries and for Secretaries of State.
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, in this sector I have outlined where the responsibilities of Ofqual and the department are in relation to this matter. I myself am bound by ministerial responsibility. On this matter, the Prime Minister made clear that it was time for new leadership at official level, and sadly the Permanent Secretary agreed to stand down.
The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
I call the noble Baroness, Lady Verma. No? I call the noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth.
Lord Knight of Weymouth (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I remind noble Lords of my educational interests. The Education Select Committee warned Ministers in May that the model used for exam gradings may be biased against young people from disadvantaged backgrounds. The former director-general for schools, Sir Jon Coles, warned them again in July, and so did Tim Oates from one of the exam boards, also in July. What happened in Scotland with Highers previewed the chaos in England. The Minister of State for Schools has Ofqual in his list of responsibilities. Did he ask questions of Ofqual following those warnings? When did he know that the model was not going to work?
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, in relation to the situations the noble Lord outlined, yes, there were meetings between Ofqual and the department. We always knew that there were limitations within the system, but the department was reassured that those limitations could be dealt with by an appeals system. As evidence that there were discussions, shortly after the situation arose in Scotland, we introduced the ability for students to appeal on the basis of mocks. When it became apparent after the issuing of the A-level results that the anomalies between grades were such that it was more just to award on the basis of assessments by teachers, the scales tipped and the grades were awarded on that basis. But at every stage, when those warnings were issued, the department reacted, responded and was reassured.
Lord Addington (LD)
My Lords, when it comes to the taking of exams—the gong that has clanged loudest over this—some with special educational needs take exams slightly differently, such as those who have to dictate to an amanuensis. Are we establishing a process where we know what will be required of that person? Many people—for instance, someone with severe dyslexia or even a damaged hand—will dictate their exam to some other person. That means sitting close to them in a confined room. Are we looking into how this will be done? Is there a testing process? Or, are we going to take the revolutionary step of saying that you can use assisted technology in public examinations on a mass scale? I wonder whether the Government have any idea about this for the autumn.
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, I always try to come very well prepared, particularly on special educational needs and disabilities, but on that issue, which I think may be within the province of Ofqual, I do not have a detailed answer for the noble Lord. But I will write to him, since it is important, with social distancing, to enable all students to sit examinations in the autumn.
Baroness Meacher (CB) [V]
My Lords, I, too, welcome children’s return to school. But I rise to express my considerable concern about parents with severe underlying conditions, who received letters from the department earlier this year warning them not to leave their homes because they were at such risk from Covid-19. These parents are now risking their lives to send their children back to school. The Minister mentioned that there will be a small number of home test kits for anyone who develops symptoms. What plans do the Government have to provide home test kits to enable daily testing of children of the most vulnerable parents? These kits would need a rapid return of results—ideally, within about 10 minutes. Only then could these families hope to continue to lead normal lives. I think this is urgent.
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, it is my understanding that, although people received those letters earlier in the year, shielding ended on 1 August. In relation to the test kits, there are initially 10 per school for school leaders to distribute to families or support staff who might have difficulty accessing a test either by post or by attending one of the mobile centres. Test results should be received within 24 hours and unfortunately not within the 10 minutes the noble Baroness suggested.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]
My Lords, I welcome the assurance from the Minister in response to the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Yardley, that moderated assessment will be considered for next year. But is this not an opportunity—given that in our age of shocks, there could be a more resilient and secure method of testing—to allow students to show what they can understand and think critically about in coursework, rather than relying on the 20th-century, old-fashioned idea of testing what people can regurgitate in exams?
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, although I agree to take back the suggestion to see whether it was in train or any one of the processes, the Government stand by their view that, as this year has shown, the fairest way to assess student attainment is by public examinations, and that is what we expect to do next summer.
Lord Lucas (Con) [V]
My Lords, I declare my interest as editor of the Good Schools Guide. We review tutoring companies, and private tutoring has been one of the great successes of independent education in the last 10 years, with an enormous increase in both quantity and quality. I congratulate the Government, therefore, on the introduction of the National Tutoring Programme, which I believe will be a great support to those children who can access it. But I am surprised to be told that many of the most successful tutoring companies with the highest reputations are to be excluded from competing for part of that contract. Can my noble friend tell me what is going on?
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, it is an integral part of catching up for disadvantaged students to have access to small-group tuition. We hope that this will be one of the changes that Covid-19 brings about, through the use of remote education, for example. In relation to the programme, Teach First is providing it where there must be a person physically in the building—certain schools will need one person to devote themselves to their cohort—but other tutoring will be delivered remotely. That is being delivered through the grant to the Education Endowment Foundation. If the noble Lord could send me details of those companies, the foundation is seeking to make sure that the best tutoring out there is made available to disadvantaged students.
Baroness Blackstone (Ind Lab)
I want to press the Minister on the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Birt, because, regrettably, I do not think her answer was satisfactory. Was it not the Secretary of State who decided not to follow the example of the Scottish Government to bring back teacher assessments instead of Ofqual’s algorithms, which were leading to gross injustices to many students? In these circumstances, why did the Secretary of State not resign, when the Permanent Secretary was shown the door? Surely, this is an abrogation of our constitutional principle that Ministers take responsibility in the end.
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, I have outlined to noble Lords that once issues were raised about the Scottish results, there were concerns that they should not be repeated in England. That was the moment at which that could be compensated for by the introduction of an additional appeal based on a valid mock. There was a response; it is not that nothing was done once we were aware. When issues were brought to our attention, matters were dealt with.
Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)
My Lords, this summer’s debacle threw up a massive disadvantage gap between state and independent schools. The latter continued with online teaching and learning to far greater effect than the former. Following the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Bull, and the Minister’s answer, independent schools are always ready to play their part, so can the Minister say why the National Tutoring Programme has a minimum of 500 students to access, when most independent schools have only about 390? They would be asked to tutor more pupils than they actually teach.
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, the National Tutoring Programme is to deliver small-group tutoring, envisaged to be for groups of about four or five pupils. I will have to write to the noble Baroness about the details of the disparity and the numbers she outlines.
Baroness Altmann (Con)
My Lords, given the scientific evidence that schools are extremely low-risk environments for the spread of Covid-19, and the harm already suffered by children from not being in school, I am delighted that the Government are now getting on with seeing children back into school. I will ask my noble friend two questions, if I may. First, could she reassure the House—she may have just done so—that the Government intend that exams will be sat by years 11 and 13 next year, given that that is so important? We do not want to see another cohort disrupted like this year’s. Secondly, could she help us understand the criteria the Government want to use to decide which children receive the special remedial help for disadvantaged children, and by whom these decisions will be made?
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, it is wonderful that we are all in agreement that it is great to know that, as we stand here, so many children are back in school today, where they belong. It is the expectation that exams will be taken in 2021. In relation to the delivery of catch-up support, the majority of the £1 billion has gone out through the normal system of core funding for schools, because it is the schools on the front line that know which of their students have fallen furthest behind during the lockdown period. They have been given information from the Education Endowment Foundation on how best to use that money to support students. We trust the professionals to make those judgments and we are aiding them to do that.
Tutoring support will be offered with about a 25% cost reduction. We have given guidance that some of the £650 million will be spent on buying in the tutoring that we are providing at this heavily subsidised cost. We have confidence in the head teachers who, today and tomorrow, will know how their pupils have fared—some of whom they, sadly, will not had any contact with for many months.
Lord Holmes of Richmond (Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. Does the Minister agree that education is one of the few means by which we can go beyond our circumstances and achieve our potential? To this end, is the department considering an equality impact assessment into what happened this summer, not least the impact on white working-class young men and indeed all other protected characteristics?
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, I am sure I am not alone in saying that education has enabled me to go way beyond my circumstances. It is vitally important that we know the impact that policies have on different communities. Ofqual published an equality impact assessment when it launched its consultation on the 2020 exams and it will publish a similar document in relation to the examinations next year.
Lord Wood of Anfield (Lab)
My Lords, I want to take the Minister back, I am afraid, to the process leading up to the announcement of A-level results, because the process that she described is really quite extraordinary. It is not that there was no consultation between the Minister and Ofqual, it is that there was consistent regular dialogue, with questions asked and answers given, and yet the fiasco that we now know about still unfolded. It does not say much for the competence of the Minister that, despite intense scrutiny, conversation and demands for answers, we still ended up with the scale of the discriminatory fiasco that emerged. I ask again: how can it possibly be justified that the accountability and responsibility principles applying to the Permanent Secretary and the Ofqual head do not also apply to a Minister who was so embroiled in the process for weeks and months in the run-up?
Baroness Berridge (Con)
My Lords, as I have outlined, during that process, reassurances were given that the limitations of this system could be dealt with through an appeals process. Noble Lords will have seen the incremental changes in that appeals process. I have outlined the introduction of mocks after the Scottish results. When the balance changed, the most just of the two systems became the use of only teacher assessments. That is when the decision in relation to using only teacher assessments was taken, but that decision was for Ofqual, in agreement with the Secretary of State.
Medicines and Medical Devices Bill
Wednesday 2nd September 2020
(3 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Medicines and Medical Devices Act 2021 View all Medicines and Medical Devices Act 2021 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Consideration of Bill Amendments as at 23 June 2020 - (23 Jun 2020)
Lord Bethell
Relevant documents: 19th Report from the Delegated Powers Committee. 10th Report from the Constitution Committee.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)
My Lords, the Medicines and Medical Devices Bill is crucial to the development of a modern, safe, medical regulation regime. Its focus is the development of important innovations that will improve and save lives for the next generation, and the protection of patients in an area which has, historically, been slow to move and which, in a few months, passes from European to domestic legal oversight. When we look at our plans for the health of the nation, having the agility to revise our key regulatory regimes is not a “nice to have”; it is absolutely essential to protect the lives of patients and empower the innovations that will extend their length and quality.
I begin with safety. The first and most critical consideration of any Bill on medicines and medical devices must be the safety of patients. We also consider the safety of providers, the environment and, in Part 2 of the Bill, animals, but the safety of patients is paramount. We have all reflected on the detailed and thorough report of my noble friend Lady Cumberlege. I have listened to the testimony of some of the patients and families who have campaigned on patient safety, and shared, in a small way, their pain and suffering. They brought to life how critical this Bill is. We owe them a huge debt of thanks, as we would not be here today without their determination.
There is no disagreement among us on the importance of the safety of patients. The Bill puts safety at the heart of regulatory decision-making, facilitating the sharing of information to support public health concerns and creating mechanisms to track the use of medical devices or medicines against a patient record. The thoughtful, thorough, modern use of data is how we know that something is going wrong and how to put it right. That is the view of the Government, which my noble friend Lady Cumberlege and her team brought vividly to life in the Bill’s passage in another place. That is why I am delighted with Clause 16, introduced as an amendment, which ensures that data provisions in the Bill are central to its effectiveness. By introducing a medical devices information system—or database—we have radically improved that effectiveness.
We once faced a situation where patients could not be traced, and a conversation could not be had between a patient and their clinician because we did not know which specific device had been implanted into a person or by whom. When I found this out, I was dumbstruck. This must not happen in the future. The Bill will support the tracking and tracing of medical devices and will enable a future system of clinical registries, such as the National Joint Registry, to ensure that UK patients are better supported.
When there is a problem, it is important not only that we know that something has happened, but that we take forceful action. Part 3 of the Bill therefore sets out a consolidated suite of powers available to the regulator, including the ability to step in and recall a device if the manufacturer fails to do so where necessary. Chapter 4 of Part 3 of the Bill clarifies the powers of disclosure around devices, allowing the Secretary of State to warn members of the public about safety concerns. We must ensure that avoidable harm is avoided by acting expeditiously to protect patients. Let me be clear: the regulator can and does work in close partnership with industry to deliver on behalf of patients, but it has, and will continue to have, teeth when industry fails to protect patients.
We live in a world where big data, artificial intelligence and genetics have become enormously powerful engines of innovation, and where engineering and computer science have combined with medicine to create an unexpected synthesis. These drivers of development are generating exciting new medical innovations that are aiding patients who were previously beyond help, bringing down the costs of treatment and driving growth in Britain’s thriving life sciences industry. I have seen the power of innovation at first hand in the last few months, during the Covid-19 crisis. Our National Health Service is the first around the world to have determined the importance of an effective therapeutic drug, dexamethasone, through the recovery clinical trials programme. Our medical manufacturing industry worked closely with the regulator to move swiftly and safely and put 14,000 ventilators into the health system. In the area of diagnostics—my specialist subject—innovation is driving the accuracy, cost, speed and scale of devices beyond our initial hopes.
We need this pace of innovation in day-to-day, back-to-business delivery too. That is why we are investing in the partnership between the NHS, with its unique pool of patients, and the life sciences sector, which can make treatments happen. I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, who is chair of the excellent Accelerated Access Collaborative, which gets the best new treatments and technologies into the hands of patients and clinicians faster than ever before. We face a new horizon of tailored treatments and diagnostics that we never could have envisaged five or even three years ago: biotechnology, artificial intelligence, robotics. We are at an inflection point where innovation can make a huge difference. I am pleased and proud to be a Minister championing the role of innovation in the healthcare system at this incredible time. Supporting innovation through this Bill ensures that UK patients benefit from the thriving life sciences sector by bringing investment, jobs and prioritisation to Britain’s medical needs, balanced by the need to manage risk.
Availability and attractiveness are the twin pillars of the Government’s strategy on medicines and medical devices, and the key themes of this Bill. Availability means the reliability of medicines and medical devices and their availability to UK patients. Attractiveness means doing everything reasonable to be the first place where new treatments are rolled out and adopted, where investment in life science takes place and where the enrolment of patients in clinical trials is supported.
Recent months have proved how the availability of medicine relies on fast, accurate, responsive regulation. It is the work of the regulator, hand in hand with the industry, that has ensured that therapeutics, including those used in intensive care, have been in safe supply and that devices, including the important vaccines, get into the right hands to bring this crisis to an end. Clauses 2, 6, 8, 12 and 15 all deal with how we ensure the essential and safe flow of medicines and medical devices. Clauses 2, 8 and 12 allow for regulations to be made that could, for example, affect how medicines or devices are distributed. Clauses 6 and 15 allow us to make pre-emptive regulations to reflect the realities of an emergency, such as a pandemic, and to prepare early.
It is right that we do more to get regulated medicines into patients’ hands and do not keep people waiting long for innovative treatments. I pay tribute to a number of noble Lords who I know tirelessly make the case for certain therapeutics or treatments to be accelerated through the health system. The attractiveness of the UK is fundamental to getting new breakthroughs to patients here quickly.
Let me say a word about regulating for the future, and the work of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and the Constitution Committee. I pay tribute to learned colleagues on these committees: I know they approach their work diligently and seriously, with significant legal expertise, and I anticipate discussion of their conclusions. I know a number of noble and noble and learned Lords will wish to speak to those reports today, and I will pay serious attention to the points raised.
This is, as it must be, a framework Bill. I recognise that concerns have been expressed about the breadth of the powers and a number of suggestions have been made as to how the Bill might be improved. I am listening, but it is important to note the challenges of taking a different approach to that outlined here.
These delegated powers are necessarily broad, given the hundreds of pages of the Human Medicines Regulations alone. These regulations can span many different matters and it is vital that the ability to make a change for the benefit of patients, where even a really minor point can be important, is not lost. We live in a world where it was only 12 years ago that the iPhone was released, yet today we are trying to figure out how to regulate an AI-supported cancer-screening gadget from KardiaMobile that plugs in to your smartphone and delivers a medical-quality ECG in about 30 seconds. We live in a world where 3D bionic arms, such as the Hero Arm from Open Bionics, have multigrip functionality, and where the national lung matrix trial at the University of Birmingham is exploring how patients with non-small cell cancers respond to tailored treatments.
Primary legislation cannot be relied on to be passed quickly when there are matters of concern for the safety of medicines and medical devices. For example, when concerns were raised across the EU about the scrutiny of notified bodies, and safety concerns arose from certain implants, it took years to update legislation. My noble friend Lady Cumberlege has made clear what happens when change is slow: it has an impact on patients. I know this from another area and I will give an example. When the Communications Act 2003 was passed, the internet was hardly mentioned. Some will say we could not have predicted the immense role that video sharing and social media platforms would now play in our lives, but I remember at the time that legislators were urged to take internet innovations seriously and put in place frameworks to anticipate technical change. Now we have widespread fake news, cyberbullying, the intimidation of public figures and a pornography boom, but without the legislative powers that perhaps we would like to stop or regulate them, because there was no framework to make new regulations to cover these innovations. I am here to listen, so I would like to listen to the advice of the Chamber on how to handle this complex challenge.
In conclusion, I remind noble Lords that because of its importance for patients, we need to get the Bill done and to secure the ability to protect patients quickly if the need arises. We need powers to deliver and to trace and track medical devices as soon as possible. I know it is important that we discuss these issues properly, but the Bill is not just exciting, ambitious and direction-setting; it is essential that it makes it to the statute book by the end of the year. I look forward to listening to the contributions ahead; we are receptive to how we might make the Bill better, as we did in the other place. My door is open, and in that spirit of co-operation and consensus building, I beg to move.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister and declare my interests as a member of the GMC board and as president of GS1, the barcoding organisation responsible for the Scan4Safety programme. The Bill is of great importance for patient safety, but also for the health of the life sciences sector, yet it is striking for its brevity and, as the Minister acknowledged, for the extensive powers given to Ministers without the exceptional justification required for the skeleton approach taken. The Minister said he was listening, but he will know that both the Delegated Powers Committee and the Constitution Committee were highly critical, and I believe there is a strong argument for the Bill’s powers in relation to medicine and medical devices regulation to be subject to sunset clauses.
Leaving the EU’s regulatory regime brings significant risks that companies will choose somewhere other than the UK to trial and launch medicines. At the moment we are nowhere near knowing whether our new regulatory system is to be aligned with the rest of Europe—the policy statement published yesterday by MHRA on devices and clinical trials regulation from 1 January 2021 is silent on this. I have to say to the Minister that I am not impressed that his department thinks it is acceptable for such a publication to be produced hours before our Second Reading debate. There is certainly no room for complacency. The European Medicines Agency covers 25% of global pharmaceutical sales; the UK on its own makes up just 3%. The odds are that companies will want to submit applications for new drugs to the EMA before the MHRA, meaning that the UK will lose its advantage and UK patients will risk getting slower access to the latest medicines.
As Sarepta pointed out to me, for many companies the attractiveness referred to in the Bill equates to speed of decision-making at every stage. That means being able to approve clinical trials faster than in the EU, maintaining swift decision-making on medicines approvals and getting approved medicines to patients faster. Yet the Minister will know that the NHS record in uptake of new medicines is very poor indeed, and I would like to hear from him what is going to be done to improve access for NHS patients to these new medicines.
On patient safety, Ministers are silent on whether they will accept many of the recommendations of the Cumberlege review. In particular, will the Minister support the appointment of a commissioner for patient safety, which the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, argued for very persuasively in her report?
Finally, I turn to the abhorrent practice of forced organ harvesting taking place in China today, and to the importance of ensuring that the UK is not in any way complicit in these crimes. In a letter to me last night, the Minister referred to the World Health Organization’s view that China is implementing an ethical voluntary organ transplant system. That is simply not credible, and in fact it is based on a self-assessment by China itself. A much more objective assessment comes from the China Tribunal, which concluded:
“Forced organ harvesting has been committed for years throughout China on a significant scale.”
At the moment, human tissue and organs can be imported into the UK from countries such as China without traceability, documentation or consent. Marie Rimmer MP tabled an amendment in the Commons to deal with this. A similar amendment will be tabled here and I very much hope that the Government will agree to it.
Baroness Barker (LD)
My Lords, Brexit poses many threats to the economy and well-being of UK citizens. Perhaps the greatest is the threat to our life sciences and pharmaceutical industries which, based on our scientific resources in universities and companies that have easy access to international talent and resources, have been truly world-leading. The impact of moving away from the existing collaborative approach between the UK and the EU will be substantial. The European market accounts for 25% of all world sales of medicines and has timely access to new medicines and devices. The UK, in comparison, accounts for only 3% of the total world market. It is against that backdrop that we have to consider this legislation, which is intended to mitigate threats to our industry.
We all agree that we need legislation, but not this thoroughly unsatisfactory Bill. It is a Bill that should not be accepted unless it is thoroughly revised, for three main reasons. The first is that alluded to by the Minister: it is built on the flawed assumption that the Secretary of State or an “appropriate authority” must take equal account of the safety of human medicines and medical devices, the availability of human medicines and medical devices, and the “attractiveness” of the relevant part of the UK as a place in which to conduct clinical trials, supply human medicines or develop medical devices.
The last two considerations depend on the paramountcy of the first. If we do not accept that in legislation, none of the rest will apply; we will simply be signalling to the world a willingness to move away from international standards. One of the most interesting and detailed points made in the briefings that we were given came from the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry, which pointed out that it wanted to encourage the UK to apply for full membership of the International Council for Harmonisation of Technical Requirements for Pharmaceuticals for Human Use and the International Organization for Standardization. They are global organisations that produce harmonised regulatory guidance across nations. It was pointed out that previously the UK had represented the EU at meetings of those bodies and contributed to committees and regulatory thinking. Since 1 February 2020, we have had no direct recognised status as either a member or an observer. If we are willing to move away so swiftly from the international standard-setting bodies, we cannot do so on the basis of this unsatisfactory legislation.
The second reason for rejecting this Bill is that it is a Toom Tabard Bill, as we would say in Scotland; it is an empty cloak. The Minister put the best gloss possible on the reports from the Delegated Powers Committee and the Constitution Committee, whose comments were detailed, comprehensive and scathing—I have rarely seen reports of that nature.
On the delegated powers, Clauses 1, 8 and 12 allow Ministers by regulations to amend or supplement the whole regulatory regime for human medicines and clinical trials under important legislation such as the Human Medicines Regulations 2012. Those regulations alone contain 350 criminal offences which a Secretary of State could unilaterally or without any scrutiny change completely. It is something when the Constitution Committee says, as it has done:
“The delegated powers to create and adjust criminal offences in this Bill are constitutionally unacceptable.”
That is a very powerful reason.
Both the Delegated Powers Committee and the Constitution Committee were deeply critical of the way in which the Government have used this legislation, coming as it does at the time of the current pandemic, to confer emergency powers on Ministers to disapply existing health medicines regulations. They point out that there are no formal requirements to set out the form, publication or dissemination of protocols; Ministers can do that simply by publishing a document on a website. That is not taking back control; it is taking the mickey. It is time for us as a Parliament to stand up and say that this is not an acceptable way forward.
The third reason for rejecting this Bill is its potential to do harm. Many professionals in the pharmaceutical and medical devices industries have expressed the fear that by slightly and incrementally moving away from existing regulation from the EU we could very quickly put ourselves into sudden isolation. We should be fearful of that, not just because it could harm our ability to market into the European Union but because many other countries—African countries, for example— use EU approval as a short-cut mechanism for approving medicines which they do not have the capacity to trial themselves.
The report of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, is sobering. If we were to take just one thing from it, it would be the need for us to set up as soon as possible and as a matter of urgency not just databases but registries of medical devices. Those of your Lordships who have read the report will understand the difference that makes to traceability.
The Government are in trouble with the timescale that they have set for Brexit. This Bill demands detailed and lengthy scrutiny. For the health not just of our fellow citizens but of future generations, some forensic surgery needs to be done on it. It should not pass without receiving detailed attention from your Lordships’ House.
Lord Patel (CB) [V]
My time limit curtails me from commenting on the Minister’s or other speeches, so I shall get on.
I know that the Government feel that this is a simple Bill that is needed to implement EU laws in UK legislation in relation to medicines and medical devices, but the implications of it go far beyond that. The Cumberlege report has added the need to strengthen the Bill in relation to patient safety.
In Part 1, the Government set out their ambition to have a world-class regulatory authority for medicines and medical devices that puts patient safety at the forefront and promotes innovation by making the UK “attractive” to investors. I cannot complain about that.
The Government have stated their ambition to make the UK a science superpower in which life sciences and the development of new medicines will play a crucial part. This Bill offers the Government an opportunity to say how they plan to do this but fails to do so. As the Science and Technology Committee report on life sciences indicated, the UK leads in life sciences research, but it is not very successful at taking research to innovation and commercialisation. The stated aim in the Bill to make the UK attractive is presumably to address this deficit, but it gives no definition of “attractiveness”, although the Minister referred to it in his speech. I hope that he will clarify it in more detail in Committee and even define “attractiveness”.
The Bill falls short of identifying how it will achieve its objectives, except that the Secretary of State will take wide powers to do it. Let me highlight the areas of my concern which I wish to explore in Committee. The Bill gives broad delegated powers to the Secretary of State to amend or supplement regulations. As the Delegated Powers Committee and the Constitution Committee—already referred to several times—recognise, some delegated powers may be necessary, but the Bill grants powers far wider.
Furthermore, the Bill adds to the complex regulatory regime rather than simplifies it. Clarification is needed as to how it intends to prioritise patient safety, even when there might be conflicting interests, such as “attractiveness” for investors. The findings of the Cumberlege review, that patients’ concerns were ignored, need to be addressed in the Bill. While the creation of a registry of devices is welcome, their safety and efficacy need to be addressed. I hope that my noble friend Lord Kakkar takes up this cause. If he does, I shall certainly support him.
Why will the MHRA be the regulator that licenses devices and maintains the register, but any new information systems are to be held by NHS Digital, referred to in the Bill as the information centre? What pre-market processing will there be for devices prior to approval for usage?
Clarification is needed from the Minister on the powers that the Secretary of State will have in emergency situations and on the removal of the duty of confidentiality and privacy afforded to patients. I want to explore how the Government plan to make the United Kingdom a prime destination to conduct clinical trials, an area of considerable concern for a wide sector of pharma. The Minister may well remember the debate at the time of the withdrawal Bill on clinical trials and making the UK a prime destination to conduct trials. The key point in being able to do this was the ability for the MHRA to have a close relationship with the EMA. What discussions are going on currently to enable this to happen? Regulations for medicines is a devolved issue for Northern Ireland, a potential area of divergence in the future from the rest of the UK. The implications of this need to be clarified in the Bill.
In conclusion, I am able to support much of the Government’s ambitions through this Bill to make UK regulations in medicine world-leading. Having said that, I will support amendments that allow for greater scrutiny of the powers of the Secretary of State, place greater emphasis on patient safety and give a clear commitment to allow the MHRA to make strong partnerships with other regulators. I look forward to Committee.
Lord Lansley (Con)
My Lords, I welcome the Bill. As my noble friend rightly said in a very positive opening speech, it is not only a necessary Bill but one which presents us with opportunities. I hope that, during the passage of the Bill, we will look to realise those opportunities, and I want to refer to one or two.
My noble friend talked about the Delegated Powers Committee’s remarks, which made the very compelling point that, in reproducing the regulation-making powers, we are moving from the power to make regulations to meet EU legal requirements to the ability of Ministers to set down their own legal requirements; these are very different things. What we need to do in the latter case is not to move from where we are now, as my noble friend might have suggested, to something that sets out in primary legislation the detail of these regulations—nobody is intending that—but to something that moves us from a skeleton Bill to a framework Bill. What is the difference? The difference, in my mind, is a very straightforward one. The framework Bill is purposive. It sets out why regulations are being made and gives an ability to look at the primary legislation and ask, “Do these secondary instruments fulfil the purposes of the primary legislation?” During the passage of the Bill, we must look very carefully to meet that test.
I want to make three quick points. First, I think we are already among the best places in the world for medicines innovation. We may be 3% of the pharmaceuticals market but we are 10% of medicines innovation. I want to continue that. One thing the industry has told us, including me, over past years is that it wants to see our NHS take up new medicines and make them available to patients—a point that my noble friend reiterated. There is a commitment in our manifesto that says:
“We will extend the successful Cancer Drugs Fund into an Innovative Medicines Fund”.
I think the time has come for that and I hope that the Bill will make provision for that to happen.
Secondly, the MHRA is a world leader—for example, in the assessment of medical devices—but we have a problem, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, said. We will be accepting CE markings through to 2023. I am pretty sure, unless somebody tells me otherwise, that the EU is not going to accept UK conformity assessments any time soon. So we are in an asymmetric relationship, and we have to think very hard about how we can sustain the MHRA. In the course of that, what the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, said is absolutely right: we must not be pulled between American FDA standards and EMA standards. We should be trying to move everybody to international standards, and that is something we will have to look at hard.
As we put more registries in place, I hope that they will include patient-reported outcomes: that is important. For medical devices, I hope that we will show how we are going to take them up in the NHS as well. On the consultation that ended last year on the medtech funding mandate, the time has come to do it. Ministers have not said that it will be brought into place this year or next. I think that the Bill should bring forward the medtech funding mandate, as the medicines mandate is in place. Finally, on clinical trials, the EU has not implemented its clinical trials information system and is not at present expected to do so until the end of 2021. We need to be in it. The legislation says “corresponding or similar to” but I do not know what “or similar to” means. We are either in it or not in it, and I hope we will be in it.
Lord O'Shaughnessy (Con)
My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register, in particular as an adviser to Intuitive Surgical, to Healthy.io and, until the end of August, to the Department of Health and Social Care.
I congratulate my noble friend on bringing this Bill to the House; I know how hard he has worked to do that. For those of us concerned to make sure that British patients get access to the best drugs and devices—and, frankly, after the past six months, who is not concerned with that?—this is the most important piece of legislation we have in front of us.
My belief is that the Bill gives the UK the chance to create the most rigorous, innovative and safety-conscious regulatory scheme in the world. While there are many downsides to leaving our current system in the EU, as noble Lords have pointed out, there are many benefits, too. Just look at the way that the US FDA has embraced digital and algorithmic therapeutics, while the EMA has lagged behind. To make the most of these new freedoms, we need a regulatory system that can evolve in response to new discoveries and advances in medicine.
Considerable concern has already been expressed in the House today, and no doubt will continue to be throughout the afternoon, about the use of delegated powers in the Bill to provide this kind of flexibility. Having been in my noble friend’s shoes, and having been not so gently admonished by the DPRRC in the past, I can only say that this is not a hill that I wish to die on again. But it seems to me that we are exchanging one system of delegated powers for another, with the added benefit that the authority that will be using these powers has the virtue of being elected by the people it seeks to regulate. At the very least, this is surely an improvement on the status quo ante.
There are two substantive issues that I would particularly like to focus on, already raised by my noble friend: innovation and patient safety. On innovation, we currently benefit from being in one of the top two markets in the world for medicines and devices, and our regulator is rightfully regarded as one of the best in the world. As other noble Lords have said, leaving the European system could bring challenges when it comes to patients accessing innovative therapies, but these can be more than mitigated by a new joined-up approach to research, regulation and uptake. This would require the creation of a world-beating, digitally powered clinical trials infrastructure to test ground-breaking medicines and devices; a rapid but rigorous regulatory process for the most promising technologies; as my noble friend Lord Lansley has pointed out, the creation of an innovative medicines fund to bring those to market; and harnessing the collective might of the NHS to adopt and scale those therapies.
My noble friend the Minister pointed out that during the Covid crisis this is precisely what we have done for therapeutics, vaccines and other technologies that can help. The pandemic has shown British science and medicine at its best. Does he agree that we now need this kind of regulatory regime for all medicines and devices in the future? If so, will he tell the House when comprehensive plans for creating such a regime will be published?
Even as we go about producing the most pro-innovation regulatory regime in the world, we must never forget, as my noble friend Lady Cumberlege put it in her excellent report, that our obligation is first to do no harm. Too many people—often, it seems, women—have borne the brunt of an approach to post-licensing surveillance that, historically, has been too analogue and too unresponsive to patients’ needs. The sad consequences of this are movingly documented in my noble friend’s report. I wholeheartedly endorse her recommendations, and I am delighted that the government amendments in the other place will improve the use of data for patient safety.
But let us be clear: there is much more to do, so I ask my noble friend the Minister, when will the Government respond to the Cumberlege report’s thoughtful and sensible proposals? Does my noble friend agree that we should use the next few weeks to make progress on implementing its recommendations? Otherwise, as I am sure he is aware, he might find that the House does that work for him.
I have every confidence that my noble friend will work with noble Lords to produce a pro-innovation, safety-conscious regulatory system for the UK. He has my support for those efforts, and I am happy to welcome and support his Bill.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath mentioned the China Tribunal’s final report and its conclusions about forced organ harvesting in China. Despite the overwhelming evidence, China denies the claims, relying on the fact that the WHO cleared it of wrongdoing.
In June this year, I reminded the Minister the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, that 12 months earlier he had shared my concern that the evidence on which the WHO had cleared China was based on self-assessment by the Chinese authorities. At that time, I asked about the Government’s response to the China Tribunal and what the result had been of representations to the WHO and the Chinese authorities. The Minister replied that the Government’s position remained that the practice of systematic state-sponsored organ harvesting would constitute a serious violation of human rights. He assured this House that the UK regularly raised these concerns with China. He also confirmed that the UK had consulted the WHO, which had restated its view that China’s system was ethical. The WHO does not have an independent expert compliance assessment mechanism; it merely has a reporting requirement. So why has the UK not argued for change within the WHO? We should all, including the UK, be ensuring that there is independent verification.
UK legislation requires prior consent and traceability for human tissue for medical research and use in medicines when sourced from the UK, but if human tissue has been imported then the consent requirements do not apply. We have seen exhibitions in New York and Birmingham, in 2008 and 2018 respectively, both of which used plastinated bodies from Dalian Hoffen Bio-Technique in Dalian in China. They were classified as unclaimed bodies with no relatives to identify them. In 2008, the New York state attorney-general required a disclaimer that included the words that the organisers
“cannot independently verify that the human remains you are viewing are not those of persons who were incarcerated in Chinese prisons.”
The UK has arguably some of the most ethical and comprehensive consent requirements for human tissue in the world, yet imported human tissue slips through the net. It has also been reported that two UK companies supply organ-preserving devices to mainland China, which could explain how they are being transported around China.
I hope the Minister will heed the words of my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and other noble Lords and ensure that the Government have the means to ensure that the UK is no longer complicit in the harvesting of human organs from living victims.
Baroness Northover (LD) [V]
My Lords, I want to address two areas. The first is the future of life sciences research and the pharmaceutical industry and the other, as mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Collins and Lord Hunt, is the use of human tissue.
As we have seen so clearly during the pandemic, life sciences in our universities, working closely with the pharmaceutical industry—for example, the Jenner Institute with AstraZeneca—have been a key UK strength. However, our life sciences are already threatened by the Government’s decision to leave the single market and end the free movement of people, as well as by their losing access to EU funding. The pharmaceutical industry is affected by our pulling out of EU regulation, damaging its ability to access that market. Our standards must therefore be at least as high as those in the EU, and I ask for the Minister’s reassurance on that.
As my noble friend Lady Barker noted, the ABPI cogently argues that the UK should apply for full membership of the ICH and the ISO. Previously, as she said, the UK represented the EU at meetings, but since Brexit the EU has had no status here at all. We must urgently rectify that. We were global leaders because of the NHS and our history in the development of clinical trials and comprehensive data registries, such as that which demonstrated the link between smoking and cancer. As the noble Lord, Lord Patel, has flagged, we are risking that. We must not damage our life sciences sector further.
Consistent with the need to maintain standards, I come to my second area, where I fully endorse what the noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Collins, have said about imported human tissue and biological medicines. We simply cannot allow human tissue from victims of forced organ harvesting to enter the UK. We have become more aware in recent times of the treatment in China of the Falun Gong and the Uighurs. The China Tribunal, chaired by Sir Geoffrey Nice, released its full report in March. Has the Minister read the report? Forwarding the letter from the WHO to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, when he must know the current constraints on the WHO, is, frankly, astonishing. If the Minister has read the report, he will know the tribunal concludes that crimes against humanity have been committed against these groups beyond reasonable doubt.
As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, noted:
“Forced organ harvesting has been committed for years throughout China on a significant scale and that Falun Gong practitioners have been one – and probably the main – source of organ supply.”
With regard to the Uighurs, the tribunal says it has
“evidence of medical testing on a scale that could allow them, amongst other uses, to become an ‘organ bank’.”
We now hear that they are being used for unapproved Covid vaccines.
The Human Tissue Act 2004 has strict requirements for tissue sourced within the UK, but it does not restrict imported tissue in this way. That gap must now be filled if we are to maintain that the UK has the highest standards in this area. The Minister will be hearing the signs of cross-party support, and I trust that the forthcoming amendment will be immediately accepted by the Government. That is clearly right, but it is also vital if the UK is to remain a leader in the life sciences field. There are many challenges that this field now faces.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, I declare an interest as vice-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Hormone Pregnancy Tests. I want to raise two issues: Primodos, which is part of the investigation conducted by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege; and the violation of human rights in the trading and misuse of organs and human tissue, referred to earlier by the noble Lords, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Collins, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover.
The Minister knows how much I admire the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, but I reiterate my whole hearted support for her report and recommendations, and I place again on record my admiration for the sensitive way in which she collected evidence, dealt with the many people who were affected by these scandals and brought forward these admirable recommendations. Parliament must now ensure that the report does not gather dust. The Royal College of Surgeons rightly draws attention to the review’s recommendation of a patient safety commissioner, as referred to earlier, and I look forward to hearing from the Minister what we are going to do about that.
It is over 10 years since I first questioned Ministers about Primodos after a man called Karl Murphy came to my university office and showed me the disabilities with which he has had to live all his life. Following the recent Sky TV documentary, he emailed me last week saying:
“the lies and deceit I have seen regarding this drug is an utter disgrace … I really do hope that the Government and Bayer have some respect and understanding of what these families are going through.”
The redoubtable Marie Lyon has refused over all these years to let this scandal be swept under the carpet, and I am glad that the Minister heard from her first-hand only yesterday. She made a telling point to me that in appointing Stephen Lightfoot, an ex-director of Bayer, as the new chair of the MHRA, they have clearly learned absolutely nothing about conflicts of interest and public perception and confidence. In the light of such appointments and reports of five scientists walking out of a task force for back pain after finding out that a briefing paper was funded by the drug company Grünenthal, perhaps the Minister will say what the Government will be doing to police conflicts of interest and the suppression or manipulation of data.
If Primodos teaches us anything, it is the importance of the independent assessment and scrutiny of all clinical trials. But, like others, I would like to see the Bill tackle the misuse of human tissue and organs. In the letter sent yesterday by the Minister, he says the
“government takes these allegations seriously and we continue to monitor all available evidence”,
but monitoring is simply not enough.
Two years ago, in August 2018, along with Professor Jo Martin, the president of the Royal College of Pathologists, I wrote to the Times after the NEC in Birmingham hosted the exhibition referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Collins. It was called “Real Bodies” and from the company Imagine Exhibitions. The exhibition consisted of human corpses and body parts. It advertised those exhibits as
“real human specimens that have been respectfully preserved”.
They were categorised as “unclaimed bodies”, with no relatives to identify them. As we heard, in advance of the American equivalent of that exhibition it was stated in a disclaimer —after a settlement with the New York State Attorney-General—that these human remains could be those of persons who were incarcerated in Chinese prisons. Imagine Exhibitions admitted that there was no documentation to prove the identities of the cadavers, yet they were permitted to enter the UK to be put on public display for commercial gain. Human tissue from abroad has no consent or traceability requirements to enter the UK, nor do we prohibit commercial gain. However, we should do and this Bill gives us the opportunity to do it.
Baroness Cumberlege (Con)
My Lords, I stand before you as a person who was shaken by the experience of personally listening to over 700 women and their families, who have been damaged by the healthcare system. Their testimonies actually haunt me. Their bravery impels me to right their wrongs.
In our report, First Do No Harm, we examined and researched two medications. First, Primodos, already very well explained by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, was a hormone pregnancy test taken between the 1950s and 1970s and associated with terrible damage to some newborn babies. Those newborn babies now need care and support as adults while their surviving mothers, now elderly, have lived a life wracked by guilt. Secondly, there is sodium valproate, an effective medication to control epilepsy. When taken in pregnancy, there is a 50% chance of a severely damaged child being born. Even today, that medication is still being given to women who are unaware of the consequences. Then there is pelvic mesh: a plastic net which can migrate, disintegrate and wrap itself around vital organs, severing some and causing appalling suffering and pain.
The root cause was the failure of the healthcare system as a whole, and by some in the medical profession who ignored the concerns of women and their families. These women knew what was wrong but they were dismissed. They were told it was all in their heads—just a woman’s problem, not to be taken seriously. This made me furious. As Sir Cyril Chantler, the review’s vice-chairman, reminded us, for whom is the healthcare system run? We pay for it; it is ours. It is run for us, the people and patients. Your Lordships all know, as I do, that when we are ill or in pain most doctors will listen. But if they sense that a mistake has been made, they clam up, become defensive and act irrationally.
Now for the good news. The report has raised a clarion call for action and I thank all parliamentarians who have been so supportive—particularly your Lordships, but you are not alone. There are the 15 patient groups, the Royal College of Surgeons, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, the Royal College of Physicians, the Royal College of General Practitioners and the British Society of Urogynaecology—all with their medical membership—along with the BMJ, in its stunning editorial last week. All these and so many more want to see our recommendations implemented and we can start right now, with the safety Bill.
I intend to put down an amendment to appoint a patient safety commissioner—a voice for, and listener to, patients. If a product raises concern, that commissioner must say “Stop—this is a worry. We need to investigate and research to ensure safety”. It is better to have a few false alarms than the tragedies we have witnessed, which have cost lives, caused suffering and family break-ups, and damaged children. These are personal costs beyond price, with millions of pounds to be paid from the public purse.
We parliamentarians are establishing a parliamentary group called “First Do No Harm”. Its purpose is to ensure that all our recommendations are implemented. The only cloud on the horizon is the Department of Health and Social Care, which simply does not get it. Asking everyone, as it does now, to work together better in the future simply will not work, any more than it has in the past. We need someone and something new: a patient safety commissioner. Yesterday, we heard that the First Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon, has announced that Scotland is to have a patient safety commissioner on our lines. But in England, rumours are absolutely rife of a ritual burial and answers to the PQs are evasive. I say to my noble friend the Minister: this is his opportunity to give an assurance that this report will be implemented with a taskforce and timetable, as set out in our Recommendation 9. Please can the families who have been hit so tragically hard have that assurance?
Baroness Andrews (Lab)
My Lords, it is a privilege to follow the noble Baroness and to pledge our support—I feel sure of that in this House—for what she is trying to achieve, in the light of what she has achieved so far. We all look forward to what the Minister will say in response to her plea.
This is a Bill that we can and should welcome, in many respects. For example, I share many of the ambitions mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, when he spoke. It sets out a necessary regulatory framework; my concern is that it comes with unnecessary risks as well. It spans the range of human and veterinary medicine. It includes clinical trials and the ability to prescribe. It addresses some of the abuses raised by the noble Baroness in her report, and it raises fundamental questions about capacity and professional standards. That means it is important, not least for the reasons which the noble Baroness has just explained in her example, that the balance between powers and accountability—between patient safety and risk—is got absolutely right. We will obviously probe this in detail as the Bill goes through the House.
I have two concerns. One is how patient safety can be protected within the context of creating an attractive environment, whatever that means. The other is the speed, direction and potential impact of the cumulative divergence from the stability and standards of inherited EU law. The Bill is designed to achieve just that and to accelerate it. Our task in this House is how to anticipate impacts and correct for perverse consequences. That is why I feel that the better purposes of the Bill are undermined by the fact that it is a skeleton Bill. We are not surprised, of course; this is what we have come to expect. Skeleton Bills have become not the exceptional position, as urged by the Constitution Committee, but the default position of this Government, who are so committed to accelerating deregulation and for whom, frankly, Brexit provides the obvious opportunity.
The first 15 clauses of the Bill consist entirely of powers to make provisions by regulations about human and veterinary medicine and medical devices. I hope that the House will challenge in particular the provocative powers of delegation in Clauses 1, 8 and 12, not least given the chaotic conditions that we seem to be approaching with no deal at the end of this year. However, it is the fundamental disregard for Parliament which explains the exasperation expressed by the Constitution Committee and the DPRRC in its report on the Bill, the latter in particular towards the flimsy and, frankly, disingenuous justifications that were offered for the use of powers.
Noble Lords will also find if they read the whole report that there is more than a disregard for the job of Parliament. In some cases, the suggestion is that the new powers offer the same restraints as the existing ones. They do not. This is why the Bill presents such a risk. The anticipated divergence is away from a stable regulatory framework into an unknown environment in ways that cannot be tested in this House because the design, as well as the delivery, is in secondary legislation. The Bill is divergence by delegation.
The Secretary of State has made no bones about this. At Second Reading in the other place he spoke of the Bill giving
“the means to depart from EU rules and regulations in future, moving at a faster pace … it ensures that we can easily amend regulation through secondary legislation without having to bring a new Bill”.—[Official Report, Commons, 2/3/20; col. 659.]
The DPRRC has replied that the Secretary of State has taken upon himself
“very wide powers to almost completely re-write the existing regulatory regimes for human and veterinary medicines and medical devices.”
In the strongest language that I can remember, it describes the powers taken to allow regulations for making the disapplication of legislation subject to conditions set out in a protocol—whatever that might mean—as
“yet another example of ‘camouflaging legislation’.”
This is Parliament; this is our job: to expose legislation, not camouflage it. Will the Minister assure us that he will listen and respond positively to the call for restraints and the removal of those powers in the Bill that have been so insufficiently explained by the Government so far? He will save himself a lot of grief if he does.
Baroness Walmsley (LD) [V]
My Lords, I very much agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews. The Bill covers a multitude of issues, but apart from giving massive powers to Ministers it provides very little detail. It is an empty bucket. Henry VIII would have been proud of it.
Like others, I have read the Delegated Powers Committee’s report on the Bill. I have rarely read a report from this respected committee that is so trenchant in its criticism of a Bill and of the government memorandum, which failed miserably to justify those elements that the DPRRC finds to be “inappropriate”. The powers given to Ministers are not just for transferring EU regulations into UK law; they are extensive—almost unfettered—powers to amend, extend or disapply regulations, breaking many of which would be a criminal offence carrying a two-year prison sentence.
Many of these regulations would be laid by the negative procedure, with the excuse that they might be urgent. Even those that carry the affirmative procedure do not allow Parliament to scrutinise them or amend them in the same way as we would if they were done by primary legislation. Ministers claim that there is no alternative other than putting all the detail of all the regulatory changes into primary legislation. This is nonsense and the Government know it.
I have to agree that it is not always possible or even desirable to use primary legislation for technical changes, but there is no detail at all in the Bill about what changes the Government intend about human and veterinary medicine and very little about medical devices regulations. The Government even plan to disapply some regulations simply by introducing a protocol, thereby completely bypassing any parliamentary scrutiny at all. It is rightly described by the DPRRC as “camouflaging legislation”. Its overall conclusion is that the Bill transfers powers from the European Union directly to Ministers, completely bypassing Parliament.
If this is what the Government mean by taking back control, it is exactly what remainers feared when the EU referendum was put to the people. Control is going to Ministers, not Parliament. In a parliamentary democracy, that is unacceptable. Under the Bill, Ministers could completely rewrite the regulatory frameworks for medicines and medical devices, so it is not surprising that noble Lords have received so many very concerned briefings from the field.
Having in mind the fact that patient safety must be at the heart of the legislation, what constraints do we find on Ministers in the Bill? In making regulations, Ministers must have in mind three issues: patient safety; the availability of medicines and medical devices; and the attractiveness of the UK for clinical trials and the supply of medicines and medical devices. I was surprised when I first read the Bill to find the word “attractiveness”. I have never seen it in a health Bill before—a trade Bill, yes, but not a health Bill. My primary question to the Minister is: is this a hierarchy of issues and is patient safety paramount? I would not want rigorous regulation of the safety of medicines to be subservient in any way to the ability to attract producers or researchers to come to the UK to take advantage of a more lenient regulatory regime.
Frankly, if the Government want to attract people here to do research and clinical trials, I can think of no better way than to remain as closely aligned as possible to the EMA and set up the safest, fairest, most rigorous and transparent regulatory regime in the world. This Bill does not do that. I ask for detail, transparency, appropriate parliamentary oversight and the whole package of recommendations from the report by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege.
Lord Ramsbotham (CB) [V]
My Lords, I declare an interest as co-chair of the All-Party Group on Speech and Language Difficulties.
On 6 May, the chief executives of the British Dietetic Association, the Royal College of Occupational Therapists, the Society of Radiographers, and the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists, and the chair of the British and Irish Orthoptic Society collectively wrote a letter to Jo Churchill, the Minister responsible for taking the Bill through the other place, in which they appealed for extended prescribing rights, in view of the range of benefits that they would provide to patient care and the potential savings to the NHS that would result. In particular, they pointed out that such rights would result in better support and more timely care for the patients they worked with, and improved patient safety, because allied health professionals, with appropriate expertise, were often best placed to make safe medical decisions. This is particularly apposite during the problems posed by Covid-19, because patients in the community may have to wait for weeks or months for assessment or continuance of treatment.
On 10 June, I and my co-chair of the APG, Geraint Davies MP, also wrote to the Minster, welcoming her response during the processing of the Bill in the Commons, in which she said that it would give the Government powers to extend prescribing responsibilities to professional groups where it was safe and appropriate to do so. In this connection, I note the comments on delegated powers in the damning report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, published on 22 July, to which other noble Lords have already referred.
The Minister responded to our letter on 12 August, saying that the Bill will allow the Government to continue to update the professions that can prescribe medicines where it is safe and appropriate to do so, without, however, specifying which professions. To date, the professional organisations that wrote to the Minister in May have not received a reply.
All requests by professional organisations for the grant of prescribing rights will need to be subject to intense consultation before they are granted and any resulting recommendations subject to parliamentary scrutiny, as the Delegated Powers Committee points out. Will the Minister say whether that is HMG’s intention and to which professions they plan to give prescribing rights?
Lord Ribeiro (Con) [V]
My Lords, I will focus my contribution on the safety of medical devices, post-marketing surveillance and organ donation. The noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, did us all a service with her review, highlighting the trauma and damage suffered by women who have had implantable devices, such as surgical mesh, inserted in the pelvis to treat urinary incontinence.
This Bill could become an important vehicle for implementing the Cumberlege review. It recommends that, in the event of an issue with a device, the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency—the MHRA—must have the power to remove a device from the register. This can occur only if all devices, not just some, are included. The report, in recommendation 7, calls for a central patient-identifiable database for all implantable medical devices.
Post-marketing surveillance often relies on professional organisations such as the royal colleges and the specialist associations to undertake outcome studies to assess complications after surgery. The Royal College of Surgeons believes that provisions included in Clauses 13 and 16 should be strengthened to ensure expert oversight of medical devices registers. The National Joint Registry is an excellent example of a long-established registry overseen by a steering committee of experts. Recommendation 7 is key, stating that the database can be
“linked to specifically created registers to research and audit the outcomes both in terms of the device safety and patient reported outcomes measures.”
The poly implant prosthesis, or PIP, breast implant is another example of a product that causes harm and misery to many women. The utilisation of systems for tracking devices, such as the Scan4Safety programme, which involves patients wearing barcoded wristbands that can be scanned and tracked against patients’ records, is to be recommended. Although new Clause 16 is welcome, we need to be clear whether the intention is to mandate the tracking of all medical devices or just a select few.
The Healthcare Safety Investigation Branch, or HSIB, has published several reports on safety problems arising from the design, usability, regulation, procurement and marketing of medical devices. For example, it has carried out an investigation into flaws in the design and usage of smart infusion pumps and several investigations into problems with poorly designed devices and equipment which might be manageable by those familiar with them but become a problem when used by those such as staff redeployed in the Covid crisis. The HSIB can highlight these issues but needs legislation to be able to enforce the withdrawal of defective equipment.
Finally, on organ donation—we have heard much of this from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and others—in a study published in BMJ Open, ethical issues were raised over the estimated 85,477 organ transplants in China. Ninety-nine per cent of the 445 studies failed to report whether the organ donors had given consent to transplantation. The paper concluded:
“The transplant community has failed to implement ethical standards banning publication of research using material from executed prisoners. As a result, a large body of unethical published research … exists, raising questions of complicity to the extent that the transplant community uses and benefits from the results of this research.”
The noble Lords, Lord Alton and Lord Hunt, and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, will be bringing forward an amendment on this issue which I plan to support.
Lord Turnberg (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I, like most other noble Lords, have been inundated with briefings from a range of interested parties. Of course, everyone sees the Bill as important and absolutely essential as we leave the EU, but there is a widespread fear that, as it stands, it leaves far too many uncertainties.
The main issue at stake is that the Bill has too little detail and leaves too many actions to the regulations that the Secretary of State may or may not wish to put in place at some unspecified date. It gives the impression that the Bill has been written in haste. The fact that the Explanatory Notes are longer than the Bill speaks volumes. Here are a few of the areas where we should seek greater clarity in the Bill and not in some uncertain future secondary legislation.
The first is the clinical trials directive. It is absolutely essential that we get this, or the successor to the EU regulations, right when those regulations are no longer available to us. Heaven knows we in the UK spent enough time trying to get the directive fit for purpose. I remember spending much frustrating time in Brussels arguing the case for the workable scheme that eventually emerged, and now it seems that we will have to start again with a UK version. The research community and the pharmaceutical industry are deeply concerned that, in undertaking the clinical trials essential both for patient safety and for the timely availability of new drugs, we do not place new barriers in their way.
Can the Minister reassure us that, whatever regulations we put in place, we can interrogate them and that they are entirely compatible with the EU schemes so that we can avoid all that time-wasting frustration of submitting applications to more than one body? There is a fear that anyone conducting trials in Europe will have to employ expensive lawyers in Brussels to sort out the problems. Can he also ensure that the MHRA is given a clear remit for what is likely to be its enhanced role and that it is given the resources necessary to take on the extra work?
While I am on about clinical trials, it is clear that for many rare diseases there are just too few cases in the UK alone and that trials of new treatments have to be done with the much larger populations available across Europe. We can do this now, but can the Minister tell us whether and how it will be possible to do so in the future? For the very many rare diseases—there is a large number of them—will we be able to continue trials across Europe without all sorts of hurdles getting in the way, and will we get the full alignment so essential if we are to encourage industry investment and if our patients are to receive new treatments as rapidly as those in the rest of the world? There are opportunities to sort out some of the issues surrounding data protection and confidentiality in relation to clinical trials.
Then there is the whole question of the safety of medical devices, on which we have the important and very impressive report of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. How could anyone listening to her impassioned speech today resist her pleas? Her recommendations are clear and necessary. Will the Government take them up? Will they ensure that Britain remains at the forefront in developing safe and effective devices by making all new devices before and after development registrable and trackable so that all outcomes can be monitored? Does the Minister agree that the appointment of a patient safety commissioner, as the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, proposes, would be a very positive move? Patients certainly need some sort of shepherd to take them through the myriad regulatory bodies. They, and we, need that.
There are many other concerns with the Bill where matters are skimmed over and left to be dealt with by regulations that bypass parliamentary scrutiny. I hope that the Minister will tell us when he expects those regulations to be available and that he will help us to fill in those huge gaps.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, as we have heard loud and clear today, this Bill is fraught with many critical flaws that the Government must address. However, I will focus on the concerns that have been expressed by pharmacists about the wording of Clause 3, relating to the development of a successor UK system to prevent the supply of falsified medicines, which is symptomatic of the Government’s high-handed approach.
The clause refers to
“the use, retention and disclosure, for any purpose to do with human medicines”
of information collected by such a system, which considerably broadens the original data-collection provisions of the Falsified Medicines Directive. Yet the Explanatory Notes make no mention of this legislative creep and, indeed, the Health Minister, Jo Churchill, said in Committee in the Commons:
“The Bill, in the main, does not deliver any immediate change to the regulation of medicines and medical devices.”—[Official Report, Commons, 8/6/20; col. 7.]
In this context, data is sensitive, commercial currency. All parts of the medicines supply chain need access to broad patterns of medicines usage but, in the current scheme, access to pack information, which could highlight purchasing decisions and margins being made, is restricted to details such as the name, batch, expiry, serial number and active/inactive status, with some exceptions for investigating incidents and the national competent authority, MHRA, used for various purposes.
Because of the issue of the commercial sensitivity of data, Article 54a, regarding the protection of personal information or information of a commercially confidential nature generated by the use of the safety features, was inserted into the preamble of the Falsified Medicines Directive and the principle of “whoever generates the data owns the data” was enshrined in Article 38 of the associated delegated regulation of 2016, which followed the Falsified Medicines Directive.
The Department of Health and Social Care already has access to a very wide range of data on medicines sales and use in the UK under the Health Services Products (Provision and Disclosure of Information) Regulations. Ministers can request more detailed information if required. Given both this access and the known sensitivities around falsified medicines data, it is unclear why the department wants to extend the purposes for which data is collected under a future UK system and why this has not been discussed with stakeholders in the existing Falsified Medicines Directive scheme. Pharmacists have concerns not just that the department might accidentally release commercially sensitive data but that it might use such data to gain an unfair advantage, given its monopoly position as the main purchaser of medicines in the UK.
Of course, the details of a new scheme will need to be set out in regulation, but the regulation-making powers under Clause 1 are, as the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee pointed out in very clear terms in its damning report—which many noble Lords have referred to—considerable, and they provide no guarantee at all that the use of falsified medicine data will follow the previously agreed pattern.
It is clearly important to ensure that primary legislation provides the necessary protection. I hope the Minister, on mature consideration, will agree to ensure that the Bill is amended to enshrine a duty of full consultation and agreement in the Bill over this data use as we go forward.
Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB) [V]
My Lords, I will raise two issues, the first being organ harvesting. I propose to support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff. Like other noble Lords, I am very concerned by the activities in China. There are other countries where organs, particularly kidneys, are also sold, and we should not be allowing them to be used in this country.
Secondly, I support the constitutional concerns of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, especially with regard to the proposed use of negative rather than affirmative procedures. I am also very concerned about the creating and adjusting of criminal offences by regulation and I would strongly support sunset clauses.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]
My Lords, many noble Lords, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Andrews and Lady Walmsley, have made reference to the extremely strong—you might almost say scathing—report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. It is worth going back to its conclusions, in which it states that Ministers are
“given very wide powers to almost completely rewrite the existing regulatory regimes for human and veterinary medicines and medical devices”.
This Bill sees the Government seize control, rejecting the oversight and scrutiny of the elected Members in the other place and the technical experts here. In the best Trumpian style, it declares that the rules will be whatever they want them to be. Forget checks and balances, forget consultation and careful consideration; let Ministers rip. Indeed, that is what the Minister suggested he wanted in his opening remarks, focusing on speed of action, which would happen with scant parliamentary scrutiny. What he is suggesting is something new and radical.
Yet, as the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee points out, the Government claim elsewhere that this is like-for-like replacement of existing powers. The Government cannot have this both ways: it is either new and radical or just more of the same. However, the Minister is clearly right: this is new and radical, because what exists now is
“a mechanism for transposing into UK law EU rules on medicines and medical devices ... The new powers are subject to no such constraint”.
The answer here is not to concentrate power in the hands of the Government. The current system is clearly not good enough, but the answer is not to take away controls and oversight but rather to strengthen them through democracy, openness, a focus on the patient experience and independent expertise. As the Cumberlege report suggests, a commissioner for patient safety is crucial, and I am pleased to offer the Green group’s support for the noble Baroness’s proposed amendment, which she just outlined. We need a more democratic, listening approach, as the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, demonstrated so effectively, not a centralised, unchecked one, in which few have input.
Let us consider what the UK regulation might look like if the Bill goes through. We will have a Minister who will be bombarded by well-funded industry lobbyists on what the new rules should look like. A pharmaceutical company or a device manufacturer has not taken the Hippocratic oath. Their job—their legal obligation, in fact—is to maximise profits, and their profits are very large. As the former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine suggested, an appropriate metaphor for the pharmaceutical industry is an 800-pound gorilla. “What does that do?” he asked rhetorically. Whatever it likes. Your Lordships’ House might like to contemplate the image of Matt Hancock up against that gorilla.
We have already seen drug companies flexing their muscle in the notable case of Selexipag—also known as Uptravi—using a patient representative group as cover for a massive lobbying effort. We know that pharmaceutical companies are lining up for a post-Brexit bonanza, increasing the price that the NHS pays for drugs. As the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, made clear in his excellent speech, there is a huge problem in our system with conflict of interest, which is only likely to grow.
I am most often talking about the disastrous model of US healthcare in the context of the rush to privatise our NHS, but a significant contributor to its disastrous and highly expensive outcomes is the political power of the pharmaceutical companies. This Bill is not “take back control”. This is “abandon control” and, when you are talking about medicines and medical devices from the industry that gave us thalidomide, the US opioid epidemic, Primodos and pelvic mesh, that is a frightening development.
Lord Balfe (Con)
My Lords, I too extend my congratulations to the Minister on introducing the Bill. I suspect it will be a somewhat different Bill by the time we have finished with it.
This exposes the whole nonsense of “taking back control”. We are 3% of the world drugs market; the European Medicines Agency is 25%. The way for us to gain control is to work with our colleagues in large organisations where we can have considerable impact, not to start setting up our own organisations. The impact of moving away from the European Medicines Agency is going to be a considerable extension of a centralised process of regulation and it is also going to add to the unaccountable powers of Ministers, because the EMA does have a certain amount of accountability attached to it, which I do not think will happen. Indeed, it will not be the Ministers who will be making these decisions; it will be civil servants some way down the pecking order—and many of them will in the end have to take account of what the medicines agency has to say.
One danger we face is what the British Medical Association has called the butterfly effect: we have a slight derogation from a slight position of an EMA rule, then it multiplies, because one leads to another and then to another. You have to ask yourself whether this divergence can be kept under constant evaluation, because it needs to be. I put it to the Minister—he may not like it—that in the end we are going to have to negotiate a formal agreement for continued participation in EMA assessments, because we need a common assessment. We face otherwise the danger of delay—that manufacturers will say, “Let’s be logical: 22% of the market is in Europe, 3% is in Britain, so let’s get the European agreement first, because that’s where things are based.”
As a side-effect, we will then need an agreement with Euratom for isotopes, which has not yet been mentioned but is crucial to the health service, and that will have to be a separate agreement. We will also need to maintain access to EU funding programmes; we need these joint programmes to develop to do the best job for the citizens of this country—and, of course, we need alignment with the clinical trials regulations. We cannot have a different clinical trial regulation in Britain from what is in practice in the rest of Europe. We need all those things, and we need a professional structure in Britain for advising the Minister and drawing on the advice available.
I support the idea of a commissioner for patient safety. I hope that the Minister will go away and work out how it is to be done before he gets defeated on the Floor of the House. I also believe that the proposal on the harvesting of organs will not get through this House, and there will be an amendment on that. I say to the Minister: please do your homework and bring us something that we can agree with. Otherwise, the Government are going to get defeated.
Lord Bradley (Lab) [V]
My Lords, I shall raise just one issue—that of prescribing rights, already highlighted by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. Clause 2(1)(n) deals with amendments made to provisions that govern who can supply or prescribe human medicines. As the Minister, Jo Churchill, recognised in Committee in the other place on 8 June, the provisions referred to are set out in Clause 2(2). The power gives the Government the ability to amend the rules around who can supply, administer and prescribe medicine in line with healthcare needs when it is safe and appropriate to do so. The most recent changes to prescribing responsibilities were in 2018, when legislation was amended to allow trained paramedics to act as independent prescribers.
The Minister informed the Committee that the Government had published an illustrative SI, showing how the provision could be made to permit dental hygienists to supply and administer certain medical products in the course of their professional duties. That is important, because the Government could use the opportunity presented in this Bill to extend supplementary prescribing rights training for occupational therapists and extend independent prescribing rights training to other allied health professionals, including dieticians, orthoptists, diagnostic radiographers and speech and language therapists. As the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has made clear, this could help to deliver better support and more timely care for patients; reduce pressure on other health professionals; increase system efficiency; and maximise the ability to respond to the Covid-19 pandemic now and in the predicted post-pandemic surge on services. The extension would also build on the groundwork already undertaken by NHS England’s scoping exercise over the last few years on extending prescribing rights. However, having had full consultation with professional bodies, any SIs laid must be subject to affirmative resolution in this House—and, of course, such SIs must be underpinned by efficient, robust and coherent regulation.
I support the views of the allied health professionals that there could be considerable benefits to extending these prescribing rights, including better support and more timely care for the patients they work with, enabling them to have more equitable access to treatment and reduced pressure on other stretched professionals, especially GPs. As an example of those benefits, I highlight the work of speech and language therapists. Without independent prescribing rights, speech and language therapists have to hand over a prescription to a different prescriber, such as the GP. If the prescriber is on another site, that can sometimes result in considerable delays. In addition, for those patients with eating and drinking difficulties, the current situation could increase the risk to their safety, including adverse effects such as aspirational pneumonia or reflux, with the possible increased likelihood of hospital admissions.
As noble Lords will be aware, speech and language therapists provide life-changing treatment, supporting care for children and adults who may have difficulties with communication or with eating, drinking and swallowing. They are also involved in key clinical and health pathways, including cancer, particularly head and neck cancers, learning disabilities, brain injuries, stroke and progressive neurological conditions such as dementia. Expending prescribing rights to them and allied health professionals could enable safer and more efficient patient care, and I hope that the Minister will confirm that he will support this issue as this legislation progresses though this House.
Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)
A lady local to me wrote to me about the excellent Cumberlege report. She said: “Mesh has ruined my life. I have lost my colon, appendix, cervix, uterus and parts of my vagina to mesh. I have been violated with at least two unconsented mesh procedures in my rectum and bladder—the scans don’t lie—and if I want removal, I may lose those parts of me as well. I have lost my sex life, my continence and my well-being. I have lost four jobs and I will shortly be losing my home since I cannot work.”
I shall call this lady Jane, which is my middle name, but it could be any woman in this Chamber or this country. Indeed, the online support group for women victims of mesh alone has over 8,000 members. Jane, like many others, has been brushed off, patronised and accused of imagining symptoms or being hysterical, while the perpetrators closed ranks, covered up their mistakes and made her suffer.
Vaginal mesh implants have caused women extreme pain, “like having razor blades inside them.” The noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, found in her report inadequately tested and poorly regulated meshes to be the cause of so much pain and misery. But the treatment of women over mesh, and the two drugs in her report, seem symptomatic of a culture of exasperation, impatience and disbelief on the part of many medical professionals when women tell them what they are going through. Barbara Ellen of the Guardian speculates about what would happen if the boot were on the other foot, and men had penis implants that felt like slashing razors. Would they be written off as “hysterics” and “whingers”?
Although I normally steer well clear of all matters medical, I cannot allow this Bill to pass without doing my utmost to ensure that women such as Jane, and all the Janes to come, will be properly protected from the inadequate testing of products, the failure to react and recognise when things are going wrong, and the cover-ups of life-ruining mistakes which have gone on without being called to account.
I am entirely in accord with the recommendations of the noble Baroness’s report and those of the Royal College of Surgeons. What we need in this Bill is proper traceability for all medical devices; a redress agency and revision of the MHRA; registries to monitor patient outcomes and spot early on if things are going wrong; and the setting up of a patient safety commissioner. Above all, we need to recognise the importance of giving primary regard to the safety of medicines and medical devices. This medical misogyny has to end.
Baroness O’Loan (CB) [V]
My Lords, I would like to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, for her excellent work on the report that she has presented to the House. I would like to support her recommendations, and most particularly her recommendation for a patient safety commissioner.
This is an important Bill, and there is an opportunity presented by it to improve the regulation of human organ harvesting across the world. Organ transplantation is one field of medicine that offers great hope to the recipient. Organs are taken from deceased donors in particular circumstances and for years living donations have been possible. A person can donate a kidney, part of a liver and so on, and live perfectly well afterwards. I have seen it. It can make the difference between life and death. It is a rapidly growing field of medicine in which demand exceeds supply.
Here in the UK, we have stringent regulation of the process of organ donation to ensure that those who donate are protected and that donation is only allowed from those who are fit and are willing to donate without any payment but to help someone else. That is how it should be and at its best this is a wonderful development. Similarly, organ transplantation after death can, in the right circumstances, bring untold blessing to those who receive an organ.
However, the very fact that demand for organs for transplant exceeds supply means that there is a market in organ harvesting, both from the living and the dead. For decades, people have been forced through poverty to sell their own organs. This is unethical and wrong. There should be no support for such practices, and we must ensure control over any contribution made by British companies that enable such activity.
We know, too, that there is transplant tourism, where people travel to countries where they may be able to get a transplant, in some cases with few questions asked about where the organ donated to be transplanted came from. We know, too, that organs can be shipped and transplanted into recipients across the world without proper procedures. There continues to be a major problem in the lack of global control over organ harvesting. There has been a reference to the work of the China Tribunal and to reports of a state-run programme of forced organ harvesting in China, the organised butchery of living people to sell body parts, which the China Tribunal compared to the
“worst atrocities committed in conflicts of the 20th century.”
We know that Uighurs, Falun Gong practitioners and others are being killed and subjected to forced organ harvesting.
When an organ is taken, whether from a living or a dead body, it needs to be preserved and transported to its destination. Just as we now require that imported products, whether they be clothes or anything else, should be manufactured in ethical conditions, we need to ask ourselves whether British manufacturers are selling to China the devices, medicines and technology which will enable China to sell organs which have been harvested from people in China’s detention camps or otherwise wrongly obtained. There could be many spin-offs from such activity, including the use of such organs—that can be imported here without any evidence of consent or traceability—for medical research, a market in immunosuppressant drugs for the recipient, and a market in harvested organs which might even be imported and used here in the absence of full regulation.
China is not self-sufficient; it is highly reliant on the West for the equipment and medicines which it needs to help its organ transplant and harvesting industry. The extent of British engagement is not immediately accessible in the context of the Chinese organ transplantation process. The report The Economics of Organ Harvesting in China indicates that there are British companies with interests in this area—in research and in producing and selling organ-preservation solutions to China.
It is right to support and develop ethical, regulated organ transplantation. It is profoundly important that this Bill provides for proper regulation. We can provide regulation to prevent companies being empowered and enriched by the mass crimes that may be facilitated elsewhere. This will show the People’s Republic of China and the Chinese Communist Party that the balance between human rights and commerce will change.
We need to think very carefully about how this Bill will proceed, so that it does that which it seeks to do and protects the health and safety of those who may be forced organ donors.
Lord Brennan (Non-Afl)
My Lords, this Bill, the scope of your Lordships’ debate and the report from the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, emphasise the importance of government supervision of the supply, distribution and safety of medicines and medical devices.
The noble Baroness’s report is entitled a “Safety Review”. In the Commons debates, the junior Minister for the Government, Jo Churchill, described patient safety as paramount. The conduct of the affected families, described in the report, is exemplary: the way they try to cope with their suffering; their attempts to change things, to be listened to and to make reasoned submissions; and they deserve the assistance of this House and the Government.
The report refers to three conditions arising from two drug-related circumstances and one involving a medical device. The report identifies six other separate conditions that have not been investigated. History reveals to us thalidomide, the haemophiliacs given infected plasma that caused them to have AIDS, CJD or mad-cow disease, and one or two more. There has been over a dozen major, medical events affecting the safety of our people over two generations. This is a problem that is always to be dealt with—preferably before the problem happens.
The noble Baroness’s report therefore recommends that the Government should act. First, it should create a redress agency. Doctors and staff are taught “First, do no harm”. The necessary consequence of that is, if harm is done then there should be a remedy for it. That can best be done through a no-fault fairly based redress agency, which does not take away social care, special educational provision or additional provision but gives help in addition. Some of these children will never be able to manage their own affairs.
Who should pay for it? It should include manufacturers of drugs and medical devices. The industry’s capitalised market value in this country is several hundred billion pounds. The French company Sanofi, which makes sodium valproate, have a capitalised value of over €100 billion. Such companies can afford to contribute to the downside that comes from their place in the market.
Secondly, a patient safety commissioner should be created. Legislation has three principal tests: purpose, structure and effectiveness. Let us not become hypnotised by structure. What is the purpose? How can we make it effective and safe? Those questions guide us to the structure. He or she could co-operate with the MHRA and any other relevant authorities.
Lastly, as to what is to be done, the Government should set up a task force now that is government-based, with independents involved, to find out how, at what time, in what manner and at what cost this report’s recommendations can be implemented. Let us not be told that it is too complicated. Within days of becoming Prime Minister, after years of litigation in which I was involved on behalf of the haemophiliac AIDS victims, John Major’s Government publicly accepted all the terms. I thank noble Lords for their patience.
Baroness Whitaker (Lab) [V]
My Lords, this potentially useful Bill raises many questions. I declare my interests as patron of the British Stammering Association—I am a stammerer myself—and vice-chair of the All-Party Group on Speech and Language Difficulties. In particular, it will be important to use the Bill to establish the post of patient safety commissioner, which was so powerfully advocated by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, and supported by many speakers today.
Like the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, I echo the concerns of the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists, which wants to work with the commissioner to safeguard people with communication needs, especially those with additional health inequalities, to ensure that their needs are identified and tackled, and their voices heard. There is a deficit here.
In addition, I add my voice to the call to extend powers to undertake supplementary training and to prescribe to occupational therapists, radiographers, dietitians and members of the British and Irish Orthoptic Society. This would greatly improve the efficacy of these services while reducing pressure on other professionals. I look forward to the Minister’s answer.
Lord Sharkey (LD)
My Lords, I declare my interests as chair of the Association of Medical Research Charities, whose members contributed £1.9 billion to medical research last year, and of the Specialised Healthcare Alliance, which campaigns for those with rare conditions and those needing specialised care.
I will make three broad points. The first is to do with the Bill’s structure. I welcome the Bill, in that it could create opportunities for improved regulatory regimes. We cannot, however, tell whether it will. It is a skeleton Bill with a whole array of delegated powers and no detail of how the powers will actually be used. This makes effective, proper scrutiny very difficult, if not entirely impossible. The DPRRC report is especially damning on this point, as many noble Lords have noted. It is worth quoting its conclusion:
“We are deeply concerned not only by the Government’s failure to provide sufficient justification for the adoption of a ‘skeleton bill’ approach—which would give Ministers sweeping powers to almost completely re-write the existing regulatory regimes for medicines and medical devices—but also by their failure to acknowledge the breadth of the powers that the Bill would confer.”
The Minister wrote to me on 2 August, saying:
“You expressed some concern that this way of regulating the sector meant that Parliament would not be able to scrutinise the powers in the Bill if we did not provide further clarity about the policy changes we intended to make through the delegated powers. I have asked my officials to think further about the extent to which we can provide Parliament greater information to aid its scrutiny.”
That was a month ago. Can the Minister say what progress has been made in his thinking and whether we will see the fruits of it before Committee? For our part, in Committee we will want to explore means to improve scrutiny mechanisms, including the use of the made affirmative procedure mentioned by the DPRRC, and the use of a sunset provision, as discussed in the Commons.
My second point is to do with clinical trials, which are an absolutely critical part of UK life sciences and of what makes the UK a global leader in medical research. Anything that reduces the number of clinical trials will weaken that leadership and could delay access to new drugs and treatments. The Government understand this, which is why I was surprised by the weakness of their approach. The Bill simply requires the Minister, in making regulation, to “have regard to” the attractiveness of the UK as a place to carry out these trials or to supply human medicines. “Attractiveness” is not defined, and in any case this is a very weak and perhaps meaningless obligation that also entirely omits to mention manufacturing. We will want to return to all that in Committee.
We will also want to ask again which aspects of the CTR the Government believe to be in the best interests of UK patients, industry and non-commercial researchers, and which they will regulate for. We will also ask how the Government will assess these best interests and what they may be.
My final point is about consultation. We welcome the commitment to consultation and to a possible early start for it. Such consultation is necessary, but is not, as the DPRRC points out, a substitute for parliamentary scrutiny. The Bill and the Explanatory Memorandum contain no detail about the form of consultation, who is to be consulted and when, or when the consultation results will be available to Parliament. Will the Minister provide answers to these questions ahead of Committee, and could he confirm that patient groups, medical research charities and academic researchers will be among the consultees?
Lord Woolf (CB) [V]
My Lords, I begin by referring to the entries in the register regarding my legal career.
When I first read the Bill, I appreciated immediately that its powers of delegation to legislate by regulation were extraordinarily broad. I do not think anyone has disputed that. The Government have done no more than say how its breadth will assist them. They have not yet dealt with the concerns that are naturally being expressed by committees of this House, and by others, about the lack of anything more than a skeletal framework for the Bill.
In that connection, I noted with interest that the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, made the point that what was needed was to make the Bill a framework Bill, which it currently is not. If his plea were accepted by Ministers, as I believe it should be, there would be a power to make sure that the regulatory power, though undesirable—especially on criminal matters—is at least capable of being controlled. What the Government actually then do in exercising the delegated powers can be tested against the framework—indeed, it can be tested by the courts. This would enable the proper disciplining of any misuse of the regulatory powers provided by the delegated legislation.
If the Minister is in listening mode, as he said, I ask him to bear the wise remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, very much in mind. It may be thought that giving powers like this is harmless. It is not. We do not know who will exercise the powers, why, and with what result, because that cannot be supervised in the way that a Bill could be. However, at least it helps.
I suggest that another thing that would help would be a sensible sunset clause. It has been suggested that the difficulty with a sunset clause is the timespan that would inevitably be involved before it would come into operation. I suggest that that matters not. The advantage of a sunset clause in this case is that those who are exercising the delegated powers will know that what they have done will come under scrutiny again within a set limit. It would be really helpful to the effectiveness of the Bill if a sunset clause of that sort were there.
Having said that, there are many things that have been said in the course of the debate today that I agree with. The first, of course, is what the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, had to say in her report. I strongly endorse the support that she has already received. There are particular difficulties with harvesting paths, referred to by my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss and others. Again, I exercise my support. We must make this Bill better than it is now.
Lord Sheikh (Con) [V]
My Lords, I support this Bill as it will enable us to put together and implement the various regulations governing human medicines, veterinary medicines and medical devices. We live in a world that is changing and the medical and veterinary sciences are constantly evolving. The Bill will enable us to innovate and ensure that all medicines and medical devices will be safe to be used by the public when needed. The Bill will enable us to amend the regulations periodically and we will be able to act and react swiftly through secondary legislation and be a world leader in the pharmaceutical industry.
In formulating the regulations, we must ensure complete patient safety. In the regulations, we need to ensure that all the important issues are full covered. I note that Parts 1, 2 and 3 of the Bill stipulate that the appropriate authorities must have regard to the safety, availability and conducting of clinical trials of medicines and medical devices. I fully agree with and support Part 4 of the Bill, as it states that the regulations under Parts 1, 2 and 3 will be subject to the draft affirmative process. The proposed legislation would be required to be fully scrutinised and approved by both Houses.
Furthermore, I note that under Clause 41, the relevant authority would be asked to approach such persons as the authority considered appropriate. This consultation will be essential. I note that under Chapter 3, the enforcement authority will issue notices in respect of compliance, suspension, safety and information. The right to issue these notices will be essential to consolidate the enforcement regime.
I noted the remedies under Clause 24, which include criminal convictions. Will the Minister say whether it is in order to do so under this Act? I welcome the proposals in Clause 27 and Schedule 1 to apply civil sanctions rather than impose criminal proceedings in relation to offences connected with medical devices.
I will talk briefly about Clause 5, which refers to fees, offences and powers of inspection. Under Clause 5(1)(b), it is stated that the regulations may create a criminal offence
“for failure to comply with a provision made in the regulations”,
which may be punishable by a prison sentence of no more than two years. Will the Minister tell us whether the creation of the criminal offence is in order under the regulations?
I will now discuss the provisions of Clause 35, which relates to the disclosure and sharing of information. My slight concern is the protection of data, particularly relating to the patient. We must ensure that there is complete protection in regard to this. Will the Minister comment on the issue of protection? Will the recommendations in the Cumberlege report be fully implemented, including the appointment of a patient safety commissioner?
Finally, I have three more questions for my noble friend to address. First, under Part 1 of the Bill, will there be provisions to regulate alternative medicines, as some of these can cause serious problems? Secondly, what measures are being taken to prevent the importation of medicines from countries where human organs have been removed for medical testing? Falun Gong and Muslim Uighurs are subjected to these horrible practices in China. I am also concerned about tackling antimicrobial resistance. Can the Minister assure us that this issue will be looked into as a matter of priority?
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)
My Lords, I came in earlier today to listen to the Minister respond to the Question asked by my noble friend Lord Dubs on child obesity. I was pleased with what the Government announced in July—I thought it was a step forward—but then I was disappointed when I heard that Public Health England was to be dismembered. I had hoped that when the Minister responded earlier today he would have given a more positive response than he did. I was disappointed to hear that he was simply going out on consultation again to see what would follow and who would supervise the implementation of the policy. It is this kind of change of direction when we are making progress that disturbs people. That is why there have been so many criticisms made of what is happening in this area.
The Bill is needed; we are out of Europe, we need regulation and we are dealing with a technological, fast-changing world. The Minister, in presenting his case, talked about the difficulties we face in handling AI and with biotechnology, how we stay abreast of it and keep pace with it. He went on to give the example of mobile phones: how life has changed so dramatically in such a short space of time and how we have also run into difficulties. He spoke of how, having run into difficulties, the Government have learned that we need to have proper regulation of what is happening with online matters, particularly those relating to children and harm. They are now moving on that, but it has taken some years to get to that point. The Minister said that he was in a listening mood and asked how we should deal with these complex changes. Well, we try to learn from history. The history there is that we should have had a regulator in place earlier. We would then have avoided many of the problems that we currently have.
The noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, has come up with a range of recommendations in her warmly welcomed report that are so deserved by people who have suffered as a consequence of medical devices and treatment in the past in a way that they should never have suffered. So I suggest to the Minister that he answer the question himself. We need confidence in dealing with this; I am not going to deal with the technicalities relating to the report, particularly the regulatory report that many others here are well able to dissect and determine what is needed in terms of the law. In general political terms, the Government need to add something that will give people confidence in this piece of legislation. If the Minister is in a listening mood, he will have heard from almost every speaker that the Cumberlege report must be addressed. I ask him to answer one simple question, as there is a limit to the number of recommendations that the Government would be prepared to embrace. Is he prepared to think again about the possibility of having a patient safety commissioner to go along with this piece of legislation? If he were willing to take that step, it would be a big move in the direction that so many people in this Chamber want.
Lord Rennard (LD) [V]
My Lords, the Bill is necessitated by Brexit but, as many noble Lords have said, it does not provide the detail required to address the concerns about protecting patient safety, promoting innovation and helping British businesses at such a difficult time.
Soon after the Brexit vote, I attended a meeting convened by the MHRA involving many of the trade associations representing businesses in the healthcare sector. There was a strong feeling that the best way of addressing some of these issues would be for transitional arrangements to continue for quite some time, if not indefinitely. This case has been strengthened by the Covid crisis.
The UK has been a powerful player within the licensing framework for European medicines and medical devices for many years. The crucial role played by our scientists has been greatly appreciated across the EU and has benefited everyone, so the principle of dividing scientific expertise into two camps, one covering the UK and one covering 27 EU member states, is not a good one.
The case for the UK becoming an independent regulator of medicines and medical devices has never really been made convincingly and we have yet to see any real evidence that the risks and difficulties are likely to be outweighed by any benefits. Patients in the UK may find themselves accessing the latest innovations significantly later than patients in the EU. Businesses are told that they may benefit from different licensing arrangements in future, but if they are different, approval may well still be needed for export to the EU or to other countries which have learned to rely on EU standards. Likewise, patients who might benefit from new products licensed by the EU may not be able to get them until the UK has also approved them.
Two sets of licensing processes will mean two sets of applications, two sets of costs and two potential sets of delays, with the consequence that businesses may be less inclined to invest in innovation than they are under present arrangements. In future, we really need closer alignment in regulation between the UK, the EU and other international standards bodies.
The government case is that the UK will now be able to give more of a lead and to deal with approval processes more expeditiously, but the Bill lacks any detail showing how this could be the case. We might hope that in future greater emphasis will be placed on regulating areas of emerging and cutting-edge science where the UK has significant expertise, such as cell and gene therapies. We may aim for the UK to be seen more widely as a destination for the regulation and trialling of innovative and advanced medicines.
We should want the UK to be an attractive place for companies to undertake research and launch new products and therapies, but we have no real evidence yet that the UK will be able to achieve any of these things alone, and everything appears to be left to government Ministers to decide how things will be done at a time when confidence in some Ministers is very low. Greater detail and greater provision for parliamentary scrutiny may provide greater hope of progress on some of the worthy aspirations that have been outlined.
Lord Kakkar (CB)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing this Bill. In so doing, I remind noble Lords of my registered interests, particularly as professor of surgery at University College London and chairman of UCLPartners.
The Bill is important, as has been emphasised on so many occasions during this debate, because at its heart its purpose is to secure patient safety. Beyond that, it has the objective of ensuring a regulatory environment in which our life sciences industry can thrive. That is important because, beyond financial services, the life sciences are the second-largest contributor to our economy. However, patient safety comes first.
A number of issues in the Bill should have enjoyed detailed debate at Second Reading, but the way we are forced to conduct Second Readings at this time and the limited time we have to explore these issues make that impossible. However, I will identify and bring to your Lordships’ attention two specific issues that will need to be explored in Committee.
The first is the question of clinical trials. Twice in your Lordships’ House, Her Majesty’s Government have given very clear assurances that the clinical trials regulation that will at some point be adopted and implemented in the European Union would have its provisions reflected in UK legislation. It is regrettable that the new clinical trials regulation will not be in place by the time we leave the European Union and therefore not automatically become part of EU retained law.
The important issue here is that the trials regulation replaces the current clinical trials directive, which is defective. It seems unfortunate and unacceptable that, having lobbied so strongly in Europe to replace the current directive with the new regulation, our country, our patients and our researchers will be left with the defective current directive on the statute book. Why do Her Majesty’s Government not wish to use the current opportunity of this Bill to undertake implementation of the key improving provisions of the clinical trials regulation so that our research community and patients can benefit from an enhanced and much more effective clinical trials regulatory environment as we move forward?
The second issue is regulation of medical devices. We have heard much discussion about this problem during this debate. It is quite right that Clause 16 of the amended Bill, having completed its passage in the other place, provides for the opportunity to create registries to look at marketed device products to ensure that they can be traced and patients identified, but it does not deal with the important question of what level of evidence for the safety and efficacy of a device should be necessary before marketing authorisation is provided in the United Kingdom. This is vital.
There are trial methodologies beyond clinical, randomised trials which could be instituted that provide the opportunity for limited authorisation of new devices with patients included in prospective registries with very careful follow-up. The comparison of data from those patients with broader patients with similar diseases and conditions would allow for a proper safety evaluation of newly marketed devices and, ultimately, broader marketing once those initial data were made available. That would be the appropriate approach to patient safety. I hope Her Majesty’s Government will consider using the Bill to provide that kind of certainty.
Baroness Redfern (Con) [V]
I congratulate the Minister on introducing this important Bill and the review team, led by my noble friend Lady Cumberlege, on its commitment to patient safety.
This Bill delivers an extensive programme for the regulation of medicines, veterinary medicines and medical devices in the UK, and provides for a high standard of safety. To capture the fast pace of innovation in these areas within a regulatory legal framework, it is important to share vital information and be responsive and flexible, while being less complex and unwieldy, with data central to effectiveness. Can the Minister say how the duty to consult on regulations about human medicines will be carried out and which stakeholders will be involved?
I am pleased to see the Bill upholding and enhancing of the attractiveness of UK life sciences, as mentioned by previous noble Lords, while not hindering its ability to continue to provide for these important innovations for patients. It demonstrates a wish to make clear the importance of commitment to the life sciences sector, which is worth over £75 billion to our economy. We all know and acknowledge that enhancing continued collaboration of technical and scientific expertise is of significant importance to the UK going forward, but it should not be put before patient and user safety.
There is also a government commitment to a world- leading regulatory system, enhancing us as an attractive destination for clinical trials; to allowing strong collaboration, not just across the EU but maintaining alignment with global standards on the different routes to accessing innovation; to supporting patients’ access to innovation, creating more opportunities as we leave the EU; to maintaining and strengthening our position as a global player in the world of R&D; to allowing the removal of barriers to hub and spoke dispensing, giving smaller community pharmacies the same opportunities as large pharmacies; and to extending low-risk drug prescribing to other healthcare professionals.
An area of concern in the dispensing of medicines is oversupply, particularly in repeat prescriptions. Unused medicines have an environmental impact, so I would like to know how that can be responded to. How, too, can regulations be made to provide for a database of information on medical devices, to be established and managed by the Health and Social Care Information Centre?
As with human medicines regulations, the framework in the Veterinary Medicines Regulations 2013 upholds the safety of veterinary medicines by having a robust system for their availability, development and supply. Changes making prescribing professionals for veterinary medicines as accessible as possible, without compromising animal safety and while ensuring that the person administering the medicine is protected, are to be welcomed.
The Bill is an important piece of legislation for the regulatory system for medicines and medical devices, and for enabling new developments, but it must always display safety front and centre. The Government have stipulated that they do not intend to make any bold policy changes without full consultation, and that is to be welcomed.
The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)
The noble Lord, Lord Gadhia, has withdrawn from the debate, so I now call the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan.
Baroness Sheehan (LD)
My Lords, I will raise an issue that was not raised in the other place; I cannot hope to do it justice in four minutes. However, it is topical and urgent and, as confirmed by the Public Bill Office, within scope.
A safe and effective vaccine for Covid-19 is critical if we are to return to life as we knew it just a few short months ago. One does not yet exist. There are promising candidates out there, but we know from our experience in setting up an efficient testing regime that it is not easy to get from concept to delivery, however much of a world-beater a candidate may be. Bearing that in mind, thought and planning are necessary to help us beat this disease. Moreover—this point lies at the crux of my contribution today—we must act in unison with all countries of the world to ensure equitable access for all to any successful vaccines and treatments, because until everyone is safe, no one is safe.
Our experience here also shows that a small number of local cases can very soon become an outbreak and stringent restrictions have to be reimposed, Glasgow being the most recent example. It does not need a great leap of imagination to extrapolate this to the global stage. We really do all have to work together and co-ordinate action. Pharmaceutical companies have to play their part too.
Let us suppose that a safe and effective vaccine is found. The volumes of production required to inoculate the entire global population will be staggering and vastly outstrip the manufacturing capacity of individual companies. Holding exclusive licences over Covid-19 health technologies will not only affect pricing and hinder further research but prevent countries producing the volumes needed. Given that the UK, US, Japan and the EU countries have already secured over 1.8 billion of CEPI’s estimated 2 billion to 4 billion dose volume available until the end of 2021, the sharing of IP and know-how will be key to scaling up manufacturing capacity to meet global demand, in particular to ensure that low and middle-income countries can access a Covid-19 vaccine. To control the spread of Covid-19, it is crucial for all countries to be able to vaccinate the minimum 20% of their population necessary to protect key workers and vital health systems that, once lost, will take much time and money to reinstate.
Together with partners such as Gavi and CEPI, the WHO has been working to co-ordinate global action, resulting in myriad acronyms—the ACT accelerator, the AMC COVAX facility and CTAP, among many others. It is good that the Government have supported these initiatives, but—this is the huge part—they lack safeguards to ensure that vaccines and treatments, often resulting from huge investment from public purses, will be made available for all at a fair price.
I will give just a couple of examples of why these safeguards are so necessary. Gilead’s Remdesivir has been proven to reduce the need for mechanical ventilation for Covid-19 patients in hospital. However, with monopoly protection, Gilead was able to charge the US $2,340 per five-day treatment course of the drug, despite the substantial amount of public funding to develop the drug and researchers at the University of Liverpool calculating that the drug can be made for $9 at a reasonable profit. AstraZeneca has said it will supply the vaccine at cost to the UK Government during the pandemic phase, but what price will the NHS have to pay post pandemic? What happens to the money paid in advance if the vaccine is not approved? The contract between the UK Government and AstraZeneca has still not been published.
The Bill represents a timely opportunity to ensure that intellectual property rights support public health imperatives, as per the 2001 Doha declaration on trade-related aspects of intellectual property rights, TRIPS. The Government also have another tool in the issuance of Crown-use licences, similar to steps taken by countries such as Australia, Canada and Germany. In conclusion, will the Government take up the International Trade Select Committee’s recommendation to evaluate the case for measures to allow compulsory licensing, so that Covid-19 technologies are available as quickly, cheaply and widely as possible?
Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con) [V]
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lady Cumberlege and her committee on producing such a thorough and important report.
I draw attention to a practice that many of us clinicians used for years. It detected clinical problems in treatment, equipment and management early on. We had weekly meetings for an hour or so to discuss any complications that had occurred in the previous week. It was attended by consultants, junior staff, medical students, nurses and a manager or two. It was always an interesting and very instructive meeting, and it brought problems to light early on. People were very honest about their mistakes; it became rather like the general confession. Of course, it was essential to have as a chairman of these meetings somebody who was friendly and encouraged people to adopt the attitude of “There but for the grace of God go I”. It was a very inexpensive and successful kind of quality assurance.
I have a few questions to put to the Minister. First, do the Government plan to mandate the tracking of all medical devices used in the UK and not just those selected at random? Secondly, will the use of medical device registries be extended to patient outcomes? Thirdly, will the Government go ahead and establish the post of a patient safety commissioner, as strongly recommended by my noble friend Lady Cumberlege and many of your Lordships? Some years ago, I used to carry out transplant operations and became very familiar with the problems involved.
I emphasise that in Committee I shall fully support the amendments in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, dealing with forced organ harvesting. As mentioned before, Sir Geoffrey Nice QC stated in his report that forced organ harvesting has been committed for years throughout China. [Inaudible.]
Baroness Penn (Con)
I am afraid that we can no longer hear my noble friend. If he would make his concluding point, that would be wonderful.
Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con) [V]
Perhaps those who spend so much time attacking the Government about this and that might like to turn their attacks on the Chinese Government, whose morally corrupt behaviour demonstrates to the world what is going on in China.
Finally, I again congratulate my noble friend on her outstanding report.
Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I express at the outset my gratitude to many organisations, including the BHF, PSA, Birmingham University and of course our own House of Lords Library for their insightful briefings. The Bill seeks to keep high standards and safeguard patient safety as paramount considerations and to propel the UK as a standard bearer of new innovations. Like other noble Lords, I am uncomfortable about the extensive range of delegated powers afforded to the Government over medicines and medical devices and I would have liked, given time, to have elaborated further on the implications of Clauses 2, 4, 15 and 16 on the regulatory requirements during public health emergencies. I can only hope and pray that the other place and this House will ensure continuous scrutiny, with an agreed timeframe for a review of this legislation.
While I appreciate the legislative context of the Bill and the need for it, I wish to make some general points and do so as a grass-roots advocate who has campaigned for more than four decades for accountability and equity within healthcare and social services. I spent years working in this field and recall supporting many women who had experienced untold misery as result of medical intervention; I therefore welcome the sensitive way in which the Minister in the other place, Nadine Dorries, acknowledged that women’s voices and informed choices continue to be discarded and not believed, as has gone on for decades. This recognition is critical, as the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, so powerfully and lovingly spoke of: women cried out for help to alleviate the massive damage caused to them by the medicines and medical devices deemed safe for years by health institutions and professionals. Women have endured countless years of unnecessary pain and injury, leaving many with insurmountable psychological, physical and financial scars. Even the most outspoken champions for their needs found it difficult to be heard, while women awaited justice.
The report from the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, First Do No Harm, must be at the forefront of the Government’s mind as we look to safeguard and embed patient safety with this Bill. We have an opportunity to ensure that this legislative framework is watertight against any such injustice and costly negligence occurring again.
I support the creation of patient safety commissioners to improve patient safety and represent patient interests. In this Bill, glaring fragmentation remains; no clear pathways are indicated in the regulatory system to where patient safety is located. The Paterson inquiry referred to these anomalies as a “jigsaw of organisations” to keep patients safe without sufficient clarity. In this context, I would have wished for clarity on further safeguarding of informed consent.
Can the Minister say how the Government intend to complete this obligation for consultation with patients and the wider healthcare sector, as called for in the most recent proposals, including the Cumberlege Report, in order to rebuild trust and confidence that another set of disasters is not in the making as we proceed rapidly to create a new vaccine in the face of this horrendous pandemic?
Of equal significance, but which appears to be absent, is reference to safeguarding informed consent. I therefore welcome the Minister’s willingness to listen. Would the Minister consider that the proposed commissioner be supported by a diverse group of experts to ensure that women, as well as minority groups, have full confidence that their voices and needs are not overridden by the Government’s rush for central decision-making? Prioritising patient safety must not be compromised. The noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, has reminded us of the thin wedge where the medical profession and women patients, in particular, interact. There is urgent need for a robust regulatory framework for medicine and medical devices with the principal aims of serving and protecting patients and users of our service.
Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]
My Lords, I have a personal interest in this most important Bill, as medicines have saved my life on several occasions, and I use several medical devices. But most important to me is the safety of our country in this difficult time of coronavirus and leaving the EU.
The Secretary of State has an immense responsibility in providing safe functions relating to medicines for humans and animals and to medical devices. Leaving the EU means that we will not have the advantage of voting at the European Medicines Agency, where we were among the leaders, and it puts extra stresses and strains on our MHRA. The MHRA works so well with the European Medicines Agency, which has now moved from London to Amsterdam. I ask the Minister: will the MHRA be given more support and funds to carry out its extra and vital work? What will happen with clinical trials in the UK, which are based on the EU clinical trials directive and operate through the MHRA? It is not expected to apply in the EU until after the end of the transition period. This means it will not be part of the EU law, so what will the UK do about this important matter? My noble friend Lord Kakkar also stressed this.
Thousands of clinical trials seeking new treatments for diseases, including cancer, heart disease and many rare conditions, have been suspended or abandoned in the wake of the Covid-19 pandemic. Charities that raise money to provide funds have lost millions of pounds in revenue that would go a long way to helping to research new medicines and therapies that are desperately needed. Coronavirus has cast a shadow across the world. We should work together to fight this disease. But the emphasis on the attractiveness of the UK to conduct clinical trials or develop medical devices must not be put before patient and user safety.
The Bill covers so many aspects of safety. I have been involved with the disaster of sodium valproate, the drug given to pregnant women with epilepsy; their children were born with autism. I hope that the recommendations of the Cumberlege report will be accepted, especially the creation of the post of patient commissioner. I am pleased that the Bill addresses the dangers of falsified medicines. However, the Company Chemists’ Association would like to avoid the unintended consequences of data being used for purposes other than to ensure that medicines are safe. It is asking for “any purpose” to be amended to “in agreed framework”.
Everyone to whom I have spoken agrees that we should maintain the highest possible standards of patient and animal safety. I hope that we can work globally and not become isolated.
Lord Willis of Knaresborough (LD) [V]
My Lords, I suspect that much of my contribution will echo that of other noble Lords as this vital piece of legislation makes its way through our House. I say “vital” not simply because the overall market in pharma-medical devices and medical products is worth some £74 billion a year, but because without this legislation the chaos that derived from a no-deal Brexit would be catastrophic for patients and their families.
Let us be clear: this Bill is short on detail and accountability and places far too much power in the hands of the Secretary of State. The one overriding consequence is to deliver a system of regulation that is inferior to and more expensive than the one that currently exists. That is quite a triumph.
That said, there are elements of the Bill I welcome, particularly the registry of medical devices, and the greater enforcement powers over rogue operators, which are so clearly needed, following the excellent report by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege—a report, incidentally, whose recommendations are embarrassingly absent from the Bill.
I welcome a more realistic approach to prescribing and extending the ability to prescribe to more healthcare professionals. What is not clear is how this is to be achieved. Will the Human Medicines Regulations 2012 be amended by a new clause in the Bill? Will a common framework for competency, based on the Royal Pharmaceutical Society’s competency framework, be included as a requirement for any new professional prescribing group? If not, where will its standards come from? Do the Government intend to address the issue of competency for those who do not prescribe but who administer drugs to patients? A safe administering practice is crucial, particularly in community settings, where often prescribing colleagues are in short supply.
Like many Peers, I am deeply concerned about aligning future regulatory systems. I welcome assurances given by Ministers, but we have to anticipate a situation where divergence of regulation may lead to the non-compliance of either our products or those of the EU and the US, our two major suppliers. Currently, the UK is a key player in the global regulation of medicines. Despite having only 3% of the global market, compared to the rest of Europe with 25%, we are able, through the MHRA, to punch well above our weight, as the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, so clearly stated. Three years ago, the UK was a rapporteur, assistant rapporteur or scientific advice co-ordinator for one in five EMA regulatory decisions—decisions that were accepted across the globe. The UK is a global player because of our excellent science but also because it has access, through the EMA, to the EU. Should we not retain the closest possible alignment with the EU, when the regulatory cost and impact burden might see huge problems for the UK medicines industry, with a rapid decline of market authorisations?
Finally, given the surge in personalised medicine which will drive so many novel treatments, I hope that the Bill can be amended to make it a requirement that, should a health professional offer a patient treatment using a fast-track drug, therapy or device with which they have had or will have a pecuniary interest, it must be declared. That is not the case today and it certainly should be. The report by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, looked particularly at areas such as fertilisation treatment, where there are some very important differences to be made. I look forward to further examination of the Bill in Committee but regret the fact that we have to have this at all.
Lord Mancroft (Con)
My Lords, the purpose of the Bill before us today is set out very clearly in the Long Title and few could disagree with the Government’s objectives. Indeed, the Bill had a relatively untroubled passage through the other place. However, I am slightly confused. At least part of the motivation for improving the law and regulation in this area was the subject of the review of the safety of medicines and medical devices by my noble friend Lady Cumberlege—a first-class if somewhat harrowing report. I am therefore unclear how the Government can be entirely confident that the Bill achieves what it purports to, as it was drafted before my noble friend’s report was published.
I would like to take this opportunity to make a few comments about my noble friend’s review, because I became concerned and, frankly, pretty horrified by its findings, particularly in relation to the use and misuse of surgical mesh. We have become accustomed over the last few months to applauding outside our homes the sterling work of front-line NHS staff during the pandemic at a time when large numbers of people became very ill and required significant interventions and care in a particularly challenging environment. We were right as a nation to acknowledge the work that they selflessly undertook on our behalf.
However, my noble friend’s review sets out a description of another side of our National Health Service that we need to be equally willing to acknowledge, although it is less palatable and some people may not be willing to admit it. Everybody makes mistakes, and large, nationally delivered services are no exception. So it is important to keep things in perspective, which is not easy when we are talking about the lives of people we know, or our loved ones.
One thing that sticks out to me in the review is the extraordinary lack of data, which has been mentioned before in this debate. I can tell your Lordships that 336,000 people have been infected with coronavirus in the UK this year and that 41,000 have died—precise and tragic statistics. But I cannot tell your Lordships how many women have had their lives ruined by the insertion of medical mesh, because the National Health Service does not have those figures. It does not know how many people had those operations or how many have suffered adverse effects, although the number is probably in the tens of thousands, and certainly more than those who have died of Covid.
Doesn’t know, or doesn’t care? It is very hard to tell from the review or from talking to those who have suffered. But the language of the review bears repeating and should go on the record. I am obviously not going to quote all 267 harrowing pages, but perhaps I can take a few quotes from page 4, which cites
“lack of awareness of who to complain to and how … the struggle to be heard … not being believed … dismissive and unhelpful attitudes on the part of some clinicians … a sense of abandonment … life-changing consequences … breakdown of family life … loss of jobs … loss of identity and self-worth”.
Lastly, “inaccurate or altered patient records” is a particularly shocking remark to me. I will not go on, noble Lords have heard enough. This is not a service that we should be applauding on our doorsteps. This is a service that in this area should be hanging its head in shame.
I have two questions for my noble friend. Can he assure the House that the Bill will go a long way—a very long way—to ensuring that something like this can never happen again? Can he explain exactly how the Bill will contribute to that, because it is far from clear to me from his remarks on opening this debate. It is far from clear to me because, as many noble Lords have pointed out, it is only a skeleton Bill or a framework Bill—I am not sure what the difference between the two is.
Secondly, can he explain what steps the Government are taking now, today, to make redress to those women who have been harmed and how exactly they are doing that? I have read what my noble friend’s review recommends but have not yet heard the Government’s response, and this Bill does not cover that most important point.
Lastly, if my noble friend Lady Cumberlege moves an amendment to set up a patient safety commissioner, I shall be delighted to support her in the Lobbies.
Lord Bhatia (Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, this Bill is being debated against the background of the UK exiting the EU by the end of this year and the Covid-19 pandemic, which has paralysed this country and virtually the whole world. It covers a multitude of subjects, from medical devices and medicines, to research and consultation with the medical community and the general public. I will comment on Part 1, entitled “Human Medicines.”
This vast Bill ultimately will affect every citizen in this country. Many of us have illnesses and depend on our NHS. Our GPs are our first contact; they assess our health conditions and decide on the next step of treatment. The enormous responsibility that GPs carry is truly awesome. Their work decides our fate, whether medication is needed and whether to send us to a consultant or to an NHS hospital. Few of us realise that our GP practices have budgetary problems.
Next in line are the pharmacists, who deliver the medications prescribed by GPs. In the lockdown era, they must deliver those medications to our homes. We are rightly recognising and applauding the work of our NHS hospitals, doctors, surgeons, nurses and other staff, but few of us recognise the work of the pharmacies. They work long hours. In most cities and towns a pharmacy is open 24 hours a day. They too have budgetary problems. Before the pandemic they could run profitably, since customers collected their medications and, while doing so, could buy other, non-medical items, ranging from toothbrushes to perfumes and soaps. Because of the lockdown, that extra trade has disappeared and none of us realises that pharmacies may now be running at a loss. Supermarkets have their own pharmacies and competing products. There should be better recognition of the work of pharmacies and some level of subsidy provided following the lockdown.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB) [V]
My Lords, I declare my registered medical and university interests, and that my son is developing cardiac medical devices.
The Bill could either cripple UK medical devices development or enable the UK to become a major player in advancing new devices and medicines for the world market. There must be safety—the report First Do No Harm is aptly titled. Its recommendations must be fast tracked. I will address the proposed information centre, the need for a provisional licensing system for medical devices development, and our duty to uphold international standards.
The information centre that will be formed to collect data on medical devices must establish a level playing field, as a four-nation institution, with representatives from each nation on the board to ensure governance oversight and strategic direction, equal access to data analysis and data sharing, and reporting to all four Health Ministers. The model exists in the joint biosecurity centre, yet the lop-sided power base currently proposed will bleed the devolved Administrations of funds and information. Parity of funding and powers is essential. Clause 41 needs strengthening to require consultation with UK devolved Governments and health bodies impacted by the medical device information system.
Others have stated how EU-UK clinical trials for medicine must continue, with regulation that is compatible worldwide and rapid reciprocity in licensing. The UK must be attractive to medicine and device development by ensuring efficient streamlined systems that provide economic benefit to international investors.
We must catalyse medical device development pathways in the UK, as happened in Galway in Ireland. The UK—a small part of the world market—must grasp the opportunity to become a medical devices development and production hub by being worldwide-compatible and attractive to start-ups. Currently start-ups have the initial brilliant idea and do the safety studies required by the MHRA, but often cannot fund the utility studies in the second phase of licensing. The start-up is then bought out by overseas manufacturers, which market the device back to the NHS at great profit. A provisional MHRA licence would allow the start-up to sell to the NHS when safety studies have been completed as the utility data is gathered. A provisional licence would allow marketing to the NHS with post-marketing surveillance. I think that that reflects the proposals made by my noble friend Lord Kakkar. Patients would benefit more rapidly, with high monitoring standards in place, and it would stimulate the manufacturing infrastructure if the second stage of development happened in the UK.
Regarding China’s organ harvesting and experimentation on detained citizens, the Minister wrote to me last night, citing the WHO’s view as reassuring. It is not, as many noble Lords have already pointed out. Consent documentation for tissues from outside the UK is required only on an advisory basis. It must be statutory. There are now reports of Covid vaccine experiments in China being carried out on prisoners without consent. The UK cannot ignore increasing evidence of abuses, so I will co-sign an amendment to close the glaring gap. The Government can then prove that they really take this extremely seriously.
Lord Blencathra (Con) [V]
My Lords, I wholeheartedly agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, that Britain can and must become a world leader in medical innovation. I strongly supported the Saatchi Bill on medical innovation. I am currently trying out a couple of MS drugs and will volunteer for everything. Personally, I am not too worried about safety, but that is a unique viewpoint.
I begin by paying a warm tribute to my noble friend the Minister. He is one of the finest Ministers I have encountered in this House: intelligent, knowledgeable, on top of his brief, courteous and very hard-working. I am delighted that he is going to listen to the criticisms on delegated powers today. Thus it grieves me to say that the structure of the Bill is absolutely atrocious and an affront to parliamentary democracy. Of course, it is not unique; it is just one more Bill stuffed full of Henry VIII clauses but devoid of substantive content. It is the barest skeleton, all to be filled in with negative secondary legislation.
I am speaking in my capacity as chair of the Delegated Powers Committee. We considered the key clauses—Clauses 1, 8 and 12—and concluded that they contain inappropriate delegations of power. We say that
“the Government have failed to provide sufficient justification for … the Bill adopting a ‘skeleton bill’ approach, with Ministers given very wide powers to almost completely re-write the existing regulatory regimes”.
But of even greater concern are the powers in these clauses allowing Ministers to create completely new criminal offences by statutory instrument: see paragraphs 29, 30 and 31 of our report.
Then we come to the negative/affirmative procedure ploy. We say:
“We are wholly dissatisfied by departments repeatedly arguing for powers … to be subject to the negative procedure where there is a need to act quickly, and seeking to justify this without acknowledging the existence of the made affirmative procedure. Departments are very well aware of that procedure and we can only conclude that their failure to mention it is a device to try to minimise Parliamentary scrutiny. In future … we will expect them to explain why the made affirmative procedure should not apply.”
That is pretty hard-hitting, and I am sorry that my noble friend the Minister is bearing the brunt of this criticism when it applies equally to dozens of Bills across all government departments. It is simply that my committee is fed up with Bill after Bill drafted with the negative procedure, on the excuse that the only alternative is the affirmative procedure. This is simply not true. The Office of the Parliamentary Counsel and the Cabinet Office are perpetuating a falsehood in their official guidance on drafting legislation, which completely, and I say deliberately, ignores the “made affirmative” procedure.
Then we come to the wonderful new term “protocols”, another ploy invented by draftsmen to avoid parliamentary scrutiny. We say:
“Allowing regulations to make … legislation subject to conditions set out in a ‘protocol’ is yet another example of ‘camouflaging legislation’ … those powers … should be set out in the regulations themselves and not in a ‘protocol’ which is not subject to Parliamentary scrutiny”.
The memorandum states on Clause 2 that the negative regulations will be made
“following extensive consideration and scrutiny by the relevant professional bodies”.
Jolly good for them—everyone is to be consulted except this Parliament.
Finally, we say in our conclusion:
“We are deeply concerned not only by the Government’s failure to provide sufficient justification for the adoption of a ‘skeleton bill’ approach—which would give Ministers sweeping powers to almost completely re-write the existing regulatory regimes … but also by their failure to acknowledge the breadth of the powers that the Bill would confer. In future, we will expect a more transparent approach in which a department acknowledges the breadth of the powers and seeks to fully justify it.”
Of course, Ministers must take responsibility for their legislation, but the root cause of this abuse of Parliament can be found in the Cabinet Office guidelines to departments on preparing legislation. The Office of the Parliamentary Counsel boasts on its website:
“We are committed to promoting good law—law that is: necessary, clear, coherent, effective, accessible.”
If the lawyers drafting our laws think this Bill is good law, God help us. Do they think good law includes skeleton bills, Henry VIII clauses, negative procedure everywhere, regulations masquerading as guidance and protocols, and criminal offences created with no parliamentary scrutiny at all? Parliament is effectively bypassed; that is a sick joke of good law.
I will return to this theme at a later date. I apologise again to my noble friend the Minister that he is on the receiving end of criticism that applies across the board.
Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)
My Lords, I feel that I have drawn the short straw, speaking at this point.
Like other noble Lords, I broadly welcome and support this relatively short, important and necessary Bill. To promote patient safety, the meaning of
“the attractiveness of the … United Kingdom”
environment for medical research in future, particularly in relation to clinical trials, requires clarification. We see the global race to produce safe vaccines for Covid-19 that must, despite their urgency to protect populations, be tested for safety as well as efficacy. The UK currently adheres to the EU protocols that apply to ensure the safety of such products before licences are given for mass use. Can the Minister explain if there are any plans to relax our adherence to current EU legislation on clinical trials?
The Bill refers to regulations relating to medical devices and the fact that Ministers will be given delegated powers in relation to their approval. Do the Government intend to adopt the EU regulation on medical devices 2017/745, which is not due to come into force until after the end of the transition period? Will the Government ensure that, as well as approving new devices in future, any maintenance of devices necessary to keep them safe in operating terms will also be included in the provision of granting such licences? We know that patients have occasionally been put at risk due to inadequate and/or irregular maintenance of devices—for example, with smart infusion pumps used to deliver medication. What onus will the Government put on purchasers of approved devices not only for safe maintenance but for adequate training for people to use the new devices to protect patients? This does not seem to be mentioned at all in the legislation as drafted.
I too fully support the excellent report and recommendations produced by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, and the way it uses plain English to describe the horror that some patients and their families have suffered. I am reminded of trying to find out, when I was training as a nurse, what “iatrogenic complications” meant. I think it is stark that the noble Baroness uses modern language that we can all understand. That is so important.
Will the Bill be used to incorporate some of the principles of the Health Service Safety Investigations Bill, which reached a Second Reading in this House, or is it the intention that that Bill will not be timetabled for completion and therefore the medical devices Bill will need to take up many of those issues at the same time?
Without doubt, I fully support the concept of a patient safety commissioner being appointed.
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]
My Lords, like many noble Lords who have spoken today, I agree that the provision of high-quality healthcare in which its citizens can all have confidence defines any nation. That is why this Bill, with all its warts, is so important.
We must always ensure that our ethical practices are of the highest standard. Any medical product available in the UK, or indeed anywhere, must be rigorously tested, safe and effective. That is also particularly true of any future vaccine for Covid-19.
However, I want to focus today on one aspect of this Bill, that relating to medical devices. I have long campaigned on the issue of winning justice for pelvic mesh sufferers, who have been left with internal damage and intense, chronic pain. They were failed by an appalling culture of mismanagement, ignorance and apathy within the health system. These victims deserve justice, and we must ensure that this sort of systemic failure never happens again.
The recent report by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, entitled First Do No Harm, on surgical mesh and other medical interventions was scathing in its assessment of the failures of a disjointed and defensive health system to listen to and address patient concerns. Much of the suffering, it concluded, was entirely avoidable. As someone who met victims of this appalling mismanagement when I was a Member in the other place and learned at first hand of the pain they had been forced to endure and its effect on their quality of life, I am pleased that this review was commissioned and am happy to support the noble Baroness in her proposals. I am pleased, too, that it was able to be so honest in its findings.
I am further pleased that the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, provided an apology in your Lordships’ House on the 9 July to all the people who have suffered as a result not only of pelvic mesh issues but of certain medications. I am now going to ask the Minister a direct question. Will the recommendations of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, be reflected in this Bill through government amendments in Committee? I refer in particular to the implementation task force, which must be set up without delay to oversee progress. Like other noble Lords, I believe that that recommendation should be given statutory effect if the Government and Parliament are to take this report seriously. That goes also for the recommendation that a commissioner for patient safety be created.
In relation to Northern Ireland, there is also the issue of potential regulatory divergence. As medicines are a devolved power but medical devices are not, the Bill in its current form raises the possibility of future regulatory divergence between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. That matter requires clarification in relation to the report of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, and this Bill. Can the Minister provide that? There is no doubt that such assurances are very necessary, but they should not and will not close the door on the past.
Baroness Hollins (CB) [V]
My Lords, I refer to my interests in the register and congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, on her review, which, as we have heard, was asked to look at three interventions in particular detail: hormone pregnancy tests, the use of sodium valproate in pregnancy, and pelvic mesh implants. The connection between these was not lost on the review, which noted that each of them are
“taken or used by women and, in the cases of valproate and hormone pregnancy tests, usage is during pregnancy.”
The review found a litany of failures in the system to monitor harmful effects and heard about: patients not being provided enough information to make informed choices; a lack of awareness as to how to raise complaints; struggles to be heard; not being believed; dismissive attitudes by clinicians; and life-changing consequences due to the harms that ensued.
For women, there seemed to be a confounding factor, which the report described as
“the widespread and wholly unacceptable labelling of so many symptoms as ‘normal’ and attributable to ‘women’s problems’.”
In my field, we call this diagnostic overshadowing. The review described the stories of adversity and harm it heard as being “harrowing”. This is what happens when a group is not believed and when systematic prejudices diminishes a speaker’s credibility. This stark example of epistemic injustice should serve as a reminder to all of us of the harms of ignoring the voices of the disfranchised. Of course, there are many groups whose voices are not heard and have, for too long, proved to be too easy to ignore. These include, for example, the voices of some patients detained under mental health legislation.
As we have heard, the Bill we are debating today grants wide-ranging powers to the Government—and, indeed, the Minister—in relation to medicines and medical devices, with a large number of putative regulations subject only to the negative procedure. Will Her Majesty’s Government commit to using this timely opportunity to implement the recommendations of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, in the framework of the present Bill?
There were nine recommendations, which included appointing a “patient safety commissioner” and the formation of an independent “redress agency”. Another was, quite simply, for the Government to apologise to all the women who have suffered lasting harm. I hope the Minister will inform the House of Her Majesty’s Government’s specific intentions with respect to patient safety.
The report suggests that the MHRA’s yellow card safety-monitoring scheme is poorly sensitive to adverse treatment outcomes and that the MHRA needs “substantial revision”. Will the Government commit, in this Bill, to a far greater emphasis on post-market surveillance of medicines and medical devices? In Clause 1(2), the Bill places market considerations on an equal footing with patient safety and distributive justice—namely, the availability of human medicines.
While the economic implications of the pharmaceutical and medical devices market are, of course, important, there is no implicit or explicit hierarchy in the current drafting of the Bill that would enable defence of the appropriate authority’s decision-making being based primarily on safety, or safety and availability. Will Her Majesty’s Government amend the Bill to ensure that the hierarchy of these principles is recognised in statute? I am considering such an amendment myself.
The Bill gives the Government power to extend prescribing responsibilities to new professional groups where it is safe and appropriate to do so. Can Her Majesty’s Government comment as to which professional groups they propose to extend prescribing responsibilities to and, if they do not intend to do so at the present time, when they would consider addressing this issue? What safeguards would they consider to be necessary?
Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford (Con)
My Lords, I refer to my interests as declared in the register.
I pay tribute to all those who have worked tirelessly to deliver lightning-fast and globally important Covid trials, including RECOVERY, REACT and the Genomics England genomic host sequencing study. These have been a clear demonstration of the strength of the MHRA and UK life sciences. However, surely none of us can read my noble friend Lady Cumberlege’s heartrending report or watch the race to a Covid vaccine without knowing that we have more to do. Therefore, although this Bill has been triggered by Brexit, it is in fact timely regardless of Brexit.
A great deal has been said regarding the delegated powers—I note my noble friend Lord Lansley’s comment regarding framework Bills—and we will have time in Committee to cover all this, but I add that while current frameworks governing MMD will be retained, the loss of the ECA Section 2(2) power causes specific challenges for operating a safe and responsive regulatory regime. By its nature, MMD regulation requires frequent, prompt updating. The Human Medicines Regulations 2012 have been updated 11 times using Section 2(2). Over and above this, as has been mentioned, we have significant decisions to come on MDR, CTR, in vitro diagnostics and much that is as yet unknown.
Passing this Bill will mean that we will be able to shape our MMD regulatory environment in a far more tailored way. We may well choose to mirror upcoming EU regulations. The MHRA has been clear that we want a seamless process for multisite clinical trials not just across Europe but globally. However, there are other areas, such as genomics and cell and gene therapies, where innovative regulation may be highly desirable for novel trial design or surrogate end points, for example.
From Genomics England to Wellcome Sanger and Biobank, we have a unique concentration of institutions, skills and industry that puts us at the forefront of this field. This is a position that we must maintain. Furthermore, genomics drives two of our most highly skilled and high-growth sectors: life sciences and data science. These are critical to our economic recovery. However, primarily, these technologies should be assured and accelerated due to their promise for patients: more accurate diagnostics, personalised medicines, and screening tools that may even help prevent certain diseases altogether. The value of knowing that you carry a faulty BRCA1 gene and therefore have an increased risk of ovarian or breast cancer is well known. However, combining this genotyping with emerging tech such as polygenic risk scoring can sharpen that risk profile and prevent inappropriate interventions. The same is true of familial hypercholesterolaemia, promising to improve care of the highest-risk CVD patients.
We know that gene editing tools are producing entirely new casts of medicine, including cell and gene therapies such as the blood cancer drug Kymriah. It was the UK that struck the first full-access deal in Europe for this breakthrough CAR-T therapy, and there is promise of much more, with 12% of global ATMP trials happening here. The benefit of cell and gene therapies is patient-specific treatment with curative potential. The challenges include cost, complex manufacturing and short shelf lives. This Bill would help, enabling approved therapies to be processed at the bedside, and much more.
Genomics and other such tech generate vast swathes of data, and none of us needs to be reminded of the challenge and urgency of regulating the intersection of novel medicines, medical devices and health data. This Bill would help us develop a future-proof health data regulatory framework that could unlock the potential of ML in healthcare while maintaining the highest ethical and data standards. But align or innovate, it will be our decision. Clause 41 makes it clear that these decisions will be fully consulted on and largely subject to the affirmative procedure, but it would be helpful for the Minister to clarify the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey.
The balance to be struck is articulated in all three sections, which call for Ministers to consider safety, access and attractiveness of UK life sciences. Of course, patient safety is paramount, but a sick patient is not safe if they cannot access the treatment they need, and they will not be able to do that if the UK becomes an unattractive environment to trial and launch the best treatments. This requires rigour and prompt intervention to ensure the highest standards of patient safety, yes, and I fully support the patient safety commissioner and an effective devices register, but it also requires addressing barriers to access and uptake and creating certainty and right-touch regulation that limits bureaucracy and takes a proportional approach to fostering innovation in life sciences. That way, not only will UK patients get the best and safest care but we will ensure our life sciences sector remains one of the most productive in the country and one of the most innovative in the world.
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin (CB) [V]
My Lords, I declare an interest as chief executive of the research and care charity Breast Cancer Now and as chair of the National Cancer Research Institute.
I would like to start by congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, and her colleagues on her committee, for her report and her compelling contribution today; it was incredibly moving. I, too, will be supporting steps to see this Bill serve as a vehicle for the implementation of her recommendations, most notably, as so many Peers have commented today, the establishment of a patient safety commissioner.
This Bill covers two areas of particular concern to cancer patients that I wish to emphasise today, which others have touched on, too. These are access to clinical trials and speed of access to newly licensed medicines. For the estimated 35,000 women living with incurable secondary breast cancer in the UK, clinical trials can provide early access to potential new treatments which might extend the time before their disease progresses, which might extend their lives and which can improve quality of life. These women often have few treatment options available to them, and clinical trials really do offer people with incurable secondary breast cancer and other cancers hope for the future. I do not want us to underestimate the value of that in these debates.
Research is, as we have heard, underpinned by pan-European and international collaboration. As an example, over 4,800 EU clinical trials involved the UK between 2004 and 2016. That is a significant number of important trials. The new EU clinical trials regulation, which we have already heard about today, will improve patient safety and streamline the process for setting up new trials, and this is vital. The Government made an extremely welcome commitment in 2018 to align as closely as possible with the new regulation, and it is essential that this commitment is restated and honoured. Today is an opportunity for that. However, without access to the infrastructure that clinical trials require, such as the portal and the database to support the regulation system, it will become much more difficult to run clinical trials across borders; that has already been talked about today.
Where trials show that medicines are safe and effective, it is vital that they are licensed and made available to patients as quickly as possible. We have heard today that the EMEA area represents 25% of global pharmaceutical sales and the UK just 3%. These are important numbers to bear in mind. If the pharmaceutical companies have to make a separate application to the MHRA, and incur additional costs, to license their medicines, delays are likely in those medicines becoming available in the UK. This is a threat to timely access for patients to new medicines, and its importance should not be underestimated.
We are also particularly concerned about access to medicines developed by small pharmaceutical companies. Can the Minister give some reassurance to patients with secondary breast cancer and other incurable cancers that access to clinical trials and newly licensed medicines will not be adversely impacted by the effects of this Bill? I look forward to hearing from the Minister.
The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)
The noble Lord, Lord Darzi, has withdrawn, so I now call the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg.
Lord Freyberg (CB)
My Lords, I have spoken at length about the value of harnessing healthcare data in the UK, and the Bill reads across to that topic. The Bill is needed to regulate medicines and the estimated 500,000 medical devices licensed for manufacture world- wide as we transition from membership of the European Union. However, it is heavily reliant on definitions set out in the Medical Devices Regulations 2002, and the use of technology has advanced significantly since then.
Simply stated, the Bill would benefit from up-to-date definitions of medical devices, or what are commonly referred to as decision support tools, that more readily reflect recently developed and near-future technologies. Many are deployed by professionals in clinical settings, while others are designed for use by members of the public. The Bill should guarantee patient safety and the efficacy of tools, including, for example, algorithm-based smartphone apps that help people assess the extent to which they may be at risk of skin cancer. A recent study found that the regulatory process for awarding the CE kitemarking to algorithm-based apps does not currently provide the public with adequate protection.
The onus is currently on the professional or individual to make appropriate use of such devices, rather than on the developers and regulators to take clearly defined steps to guarantee patient safety. Ideally, the Bill should offer at least the same level of protection afforded to patients in the EU and the US, where legal provisions make use of contemporary definitions associated with data-driven devices.
Medical devices are being developed in novel ways, and the regulation of software that makes use of algorithms to process vast quantities of data raises different issues to the regulation of software that has traditionally controlled, for example, pacemakers. These newer products are also developed, realised and updated in a very different way. By their very nature, many change, or learn over time, as they are informed by, or amass, new data. Without the means to monitor such updates, it is impossible to assess how many patients might be adversely affected by them at any point in time.
The Government have made plain their ambition to invest in science and innovation while boosting digital trade post Brexit, and the Bill is in part designed with that in mind. However, Ministers must negotiate new trade agreements with countries that subscribe to an increasingly protectionist approach to intellectual property. I am concerned that the effect of some provisions in agreements could be to reduce access to and understanding of the algorithms which underpin data-driven medical devices, in particular where developed countries seek restrictions on forced disclosure of digital technology, treating source code and algorithms as trade secrets.
I will therefore ask the Minister three questions about the Bill. First, do the Government intend to make provision for decision-support tools and the use of algorithms in medical devices now or in the future, and, if so, when? Secondly, does the Minister perceive merit in building on pertinent provisions introduced to safeguard systems of the European Union or under development in the US, and, if not, why? Finally, if there is an opportunity to learn from other countries, can the Minister highlight which nations the UK is looking towards and outline what he thinks he can usefully learn from them?
Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con) [V]
My Lords, first, I thank the Minister for the excellent way in which he introduced this Bill. Secondly, I want to say a word or two about the distinction made by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, between a skeleton Bill and a framework Bill. I understand that a framework Bill would be one in which the powers given under the Bill would have to be used for purposes specified in the Bill. Accordingly, if we are to make this a framework Bill, we will have to produce realistic purposes for which the powers must be used.
My second point is in relation to tissue. I strongly support all that has been said about that already.
My third point is that I am very concerned about the question of trials. It is very important that clinical trials are ready to be used over quite a large area of population, particularly, as has been mentioned, in specialist diseases.
My last point is about my noble friend Lady Cumberlege’s report. I fully support it in every aspect. I worked with my noble friend Lady Cumberlege long ago and I know how valuable her work is. The thing that worries me somewhat is how long this might take to implement. There is certainly the possibility of a task force, which was recommended in the report and mentioned today by the noble Lord, Lord Brennan. That strikes me as a signal that nothing much will happen for some time. I regard the present situation with regard to the people mentioned who have suffered so greatly as a very pressing situation, to be dealt with immediately. I would like this to be stopped as soon as possible.
The Bill requires Royal Assent by the end of the year and therefore there is a limited amount of time available. I suggest that a possible way to deal with this would be to set up a patient safety commissioner whose job is to hear from the public and treat that information as important and give it to the people who are responsible for the authorisation and use of various medicines and devices.
I think it would be possible to frame very quickly an amendment that could be used now to set up such a commissioner, with the responsibility to hear from the public and then bring the information that he gets from the public appropriately before the authorities responsible for carrying out the safety assessments in authorisation and use. That could be done now; then a task force would be able to look with slightly more leisure at what else could be added. That could be a Bill separate from, but associated with, what I am proposing.
The Earl of Devon (CB) [V]
My Lords, I am not a medicines or medical devices expert, but I have enjoyed this debate and have benefited hugely from the breadth and depth of your Lordships’ expertise. I am an IP litigator qualified in the UK and the US and I have experience of representing pharma and medical device companies in both jurisdictions.
Many thanks to the Minister for his hard work on this Bill and throughout the current pandemic response. Never in our lifetime have our medical expertise and ability to foster cross-border innovation research and reliable clinical trials been more important. This is why the Government’s approach to this issue is such a disappointment. During the four years before I joined your Lordships’ House, I worked in the London office of a large US law firm, advising companies on the management of IP portfolios in Europe. Of particular interest to US pharma and medical devices companies was the unitary patent and the Unified Patent Court. As currently stated on the GOV.UK website, the UPC would give such companies,
“the choice of protecting your invention in up to 25 EU countries with a single unitary patent. This will streamline the system … You will be able to challenge and defend unitary patents in a single court action through the Unified Patent Court.”
The ability to use the UK’s academic and research expertise as a stepping stone for EU-wide IP protection was key to international investment in the industry and the professional services that support it in this country. In recognition of the UK’s pre-eminence in the field of medicines and medical devices, the UK was able to secure London as the seat of the UPC’s specialist central division to hear appellate cases relating to chemistry, including pharmaceuticals and the life sciences. In other words, London was to be Europe’s specialist centre for pharma and life-science intellectual property development and litigation.
Post Brexit, the previous Conservative Government agreed to proceed with ratification of the UPC, showing that it would be possible to leave Europe but retain the UK’s leadership in this field. But the current Government abandoned that sensible middle ground; in February, they withdrew our ratification of the UPC without consultation or debate. With that simple decision, London lost the UPC central division and the UK lost the opportunity to be at the forefront of the development of medicines and medical devices for a generation.
I raised this important issue with the Minister before the Summer Recess, noting how withdrawal from the UPC was simply not consistent with the Government’s aim, as stated by Matt Hancock, that they wanted the UK to be
“the best place in the world to design and trial the latest medical innovations.”—[Official Report, Commons, 2/3/2020; col. 662.]
Lord Bethell responded to me by saying that the Government did not believe that withdrawal from the UPC would make the development of medical devices, medicines and clinical trials harder and more expensive. However, in support, the Minister cited only the fact that this Bill provides for a consideration of the attractiveness of the UK as a place to develop medicines as part of the process of making regulations. This is Alice in Wonderland stuff. The Government cannot in February choose to withdraw the UK from the UPC and terminate its leadership position, and then hope to replace that leadership position with some warm words in a framework Bill. That is simply not enough.
The UK is currently negotiating free-trade agreements with Europe, the US and a host of other countries. Will the Minister enlighten us as to what the Government’s goals are in those negotiations with respect to intellectual property? How will the Government use those opportunities to make the UK once more
“the best place in the world to design and trial the latest medical innovations”?
Baroness Jolly (LD)
My Lords, I am sorry that my noble friend Lady Brinton is unwell and not able to lead today. I hope that she is better and back in her place soon.
The Bill creates extensive delegated powers in the fields of human medicines, veterinary medicines and medical devices—but, I note, not veterinary devices. They enable the existing regulatory frameworks in those fields to be updated following the UK’s departure from the EU. The Bill creates a delegated power to establish one or more information systems in relation to medical devices, consolidates enforcement provisions for medical devices, introduces sanctions and provides an information gateway to enable the sharing of information held by the Secretary of State about medical devices. Your Lordships’ Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee published a report on the Bill in July. I was going to have a go at the Government about how poor the Bill was, but the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, did it so much better.
Medical devices legislation currently relates only to medical devices for the field of human healthcare. Thanks to the health and cost benefits, these devices have also found their way into veterinary medicine. Somewhat surprisingly, however, the regulation of these products is missing altogether, unlike in some other European countries. Veterinary practice makes use of all kinds of medical devices, including products designed for use on humans, regardless of their regulatory status and control. With rapid growth in the animal health monitoring field, there should be opportunities to regulate such devices with regard to their safety and efficacy. Given the complexity and potential hazards of certain veterinary devices, the current unregulated state of affairs may lead to health and safety risks, both for animals and the clinical personnel involved. Perhaps the Minister would like to comment and think again.
Claims of medical relevance of new diagnostic tools should be considered because of the potential impact on animal welfare. Although ultimate responsibility for diagnosis should always rest with vets, reliance on these devices will increase, as will the need for regulation of performance standards. Although I recognise that Part 3 of the Bill, entitled “Medical Devices”, currently relates only to medical devices for the field of human healthcare, remote animal health and welfare services and remote health monitoring is a field of rapid growth. Opportunities to regulate such devices with regard to safety and efficacy, and to set standards for production, should be considered.
I move on to people. The timing of this debate, only two months after the publication of the Cumberlege report, is opportune. Many aspects of the report have not been debated, and I am sure that other noble Lords will have areas from the report that suggest amendments to the Bill. It will give us an opportunity in Committee to debate some of the recommendations.
For as long as I have been actively involved in either health governance or policy—some 20 years—the NHS has said that it wants to put the patient at the centre; there are various ways of framing it, but that is what it has said. The recommendations in the Cumberlege report do just that, absolutely and without any equivocation. We should legislate for a patient safety commissioner, tasked with focus on the patient, and for a redress agency, based on looking at systemic failure, not individual blame; I think there has been quite a lot of agreement in the House this afternoon on that.
The MHRA needs to highlight its public protection roles and ensure that it actively engages with the patient body. This is another theme running through the Cumberlege report. There will be a searchable register of who has had an implant and when; details about its type; the clinician carrying out the procedure; and, I would hope, any financial or other interests of that clinician.
While I recognise the need for the UK to remain competitive, patient and user safety must be paramount. There is a real need for strong regulatory oversight. Recent scandals, such as those concerning DePuy metal-on-metal hips, as well as those already discussed today relating to Primodos, sodium valproate and pelvic mesh, highlight the importance of safety.
The final recommendation of the Cumberlege report is that the Government should set up a task force to implement its recommendations. Public confidence needs to be restored, and with a matter of urgency, so will the Minister tell the House when he expects the task force to start its work and how its members will be selected?
The Bill confers on the Secretary of State an extensive range of powers to make regulations pertaining to medicines, clinical trials and medical devices. This is necessary in the short term to facilitate alignment with those parts of EU law which are to be implemented post transition—notably, the EU clinical trials regulation and the medical devices and in vitro devices regulations. However, the ongoing use of delegated powers in this area should be time-limited. Will the Minister tell the House whether this was debated in the department when the Bill was being drafted and why time-limiting was rejected?
On trade, the UK has a strong industry base in both medicines and devices, but we will not be able to be self-reliant. How does the Minister expect that we will be able to trade with the rest of the world in the future? What conversations has the department had with the EU, and what strategy is in place to work with non-EU countries? Time is against us. Negotiations with the EU are ongoing but if we have to set up treaties with various countries, it will be some time before all this is pulled together.
Our pharmacies not only dispense medicines, and some devices, but act as a local high-street source of information and advice; that is welcome to those who think that they do not need a doctor but want an expert’s opinion. The Bill enables community pharmacy contractors to use innovative new systems to support dispensing and is welcomed by members of the profession.
There is much that I have not had time to outline and I suspect that we all have a long list of points that we were not able to shoehorn into our speeches, but I look forward to the detailed work in Committee. I hope that the Minister will acknowledge that this Bill is important but needs detailed examination.
Baroness Thornton (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing the Bill, all noble Lords for their contributions and all the organisations, including the Library, that have sent us briefings. I particularly thank the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and the Select Committee on the Constitution for their reports, produced in a timely fashion at the beginning of the recess, thus giving us all time to digest and reflect upon the issues concerning powers contained in the Bill.
We on these Benches recognise that this is an important Bill; indeed, the issues that it addresses are vital. I will concentrate on two or three, or maybe four, issues, most of which have been mentioned in the debate.
As the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, said in his stirring contribution earlier, it seems that most of the Brexit Bills between now and Christmas will contain the same or similar constitutional challenges, so I think that we can anticipate some serious learned and constitutional debates throughout the autumn.
I am not sure whether I want to describe the Bill as a Trojan horse—something that has a seemingly innocent and benign exterior hiding huge and serious dangers within. Perhaps it is yet another example of the Prime Minister’s cavalier disregard for both timeliness and accountability, combined with our own Health Minister’s self-confessed aptitude for hustling, or perhaps it is all those things combined. However, it is worth recalling the words of one of our most distinguished Cross-Bench colleagues, the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, during the passage of the international healthcare arrangements Bill in February and March last year. On 19 February, he recounted his time as a junior civil servant when he went to discuss a Bill with our very much respected parliamentary counsel. He said:
“My assistant secretary was asked why we needed a particular power, and he rather flippantly replied, ‘Because I thought it might be useful’. Parliamentary counsel gave him a withering look and said, ‘I am not going to draft a clause for you simply because it might be useful. You have to know what you want it for’. He did not know, and we did not get that power.”—[Official Report, 19/2/19; col. 2185.]
It feels as if it is the same with this Bill. Powers have been thrown in just in case they might be useful. The Minister called it “agility”. We agree that agility can be useful, but if it is not linked to policy and what you want to do with it, it is a power that can be abused.
Do the Government know what they want, or are they are putting these powers in simply because they might be useful later? I suggest that they do know what they want: they want the power to do exactly as they decide, whenever they decide it, without scrutiny, accountability or due consideration. For our NHS and care services the important matters are whether medicines are available and how much they cost, the future of scientific research, fake medicines, proper safeguards for medical devices and putting patients at the heart of this. They deserve our full scrutiny and the best constructed Bill possible.
As my noble friend Lord Hunt said—this risk was amply illustrated in the stark narrative of the noble Earl, Lord Devon—leaving the EU’s medicines regulatory regime poses a significant risk to the UK. The Bill is crucial for maintaining the attractiveness of the UK’s life sciences sector and ensuring that patients continue to benefit from the excellent clinical research that takes place in the UK. Therefore, it is vital that we fully understand what constitutes “attractiveness” on the global stage.
Will the Minister reflect on the rumour that leaving the EU is likely to see the UK drop down the list of markets that companies will choose to trial and launch medicines in if mitigating steps are not taken? It is crucial that this legislation carefully defines what the Government mean when they talk about the UK’s attractiveness as a place to conduct clinical trials or supply human medicines. Does “attractiveness” equate to the speed of decision-making at every stage of the medicine pathway? How will patient safety be assured? Will the Minister set out what the Government mean when they talk about attractiveness, how they will apply this to medicines access and what he is doing to ensure that patients in the UK can access new therapies on the NHS as soon as countries such as France can?
The British Medical Association asked about the potential divergence in standards and suggested that this must be kept under constant evaluation to ensure that such changes do not negatively impact the timely supply of safe medicines to UK patients, as my noble friend Lord Turnberg said. The new EU regulation on medical devices is an example of a change coming through from the EU that the UK should seek to capture in the future regulatory framework around medical devices, as facilitated by the Bill. Expected to come into force in 2021, the revised rules were drafted in the aftermath of the metal-on-metal hip and PIP implant scandals. They will introduce stricter requirements on the bodies authorising medical devices and ensure greater post-market surveillance. Will UK patients benefit from changes such as these, which were orchestrated at EU level, when we are no longer part of the EU’s processes? How will that happen?
The impact of moving away from the existing collaborative approach between the UK and the EU could be substantial. The centralised processes that we are currently part of reduce the burden on the regulatory authority in each member state, create a larger European market for the pharmaceutical industry and medical device manufacturers, and thereby facilitate timely access to new therapies and technologies to patients across the EU and EEA. As many noble Lords have said, the EMA accounts for 25% of world sales of medicines, second only to the United States. By comparison, the UK accounts for only 3%.
On medical research, negotiating a formal agreement to maintain access to EU funding programmes, ensure alignment with clinical trials regulations and secure the participation of the MHRA in clinical trials that cross the EU and the UK to maximise collaboration between researchers in both is particularly important if UK researchers are to benefit from the EU’s new clinical trials regulation, which is due to be introduced in 2022 and is expected to significantly improve the current research climate via the introduction of a single clinical trial database and a centralised clinical trial portal. I have been talking to your Lordships’ House about this portal ever since the Brexit vote. It looks like we will not be part of it. I would like the Minister’s comments on that and an explanation of the disadvantage that this will bring to UK patients.
As many noble Lords have said, the Bill presents an opportunity to address the issues raised in the excellent report First Do No Harm, launched and led by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, whose remarks were very moving indeed in addressing the terrible sufferings of women at the hands of the NHS and the regulatory regimes that failed them so comprehensively. Surely we need to take this opportunity to provide for its recommendations. As other noble Lords have said, we need to consider amendments that will fall within the scope of the Bill and cater for the nine recommendations in the report. At the heart of the Bill lies the issue of patient safety in terms of medicine and medical devices, so it must be an appropriate vehicle with which to implement the report’s recommendations. Will the Minister bring forward amendments to remedy these omissions?
It is rumoured that there are mutterings, possibly among officials, about burying the proposed patient safety commissioner. I would really appreciate it if the Minister could take this opportunity to refute such rumours and commit to working with colleagues across the House—I include these Benches—to make sure that the necessary amendments happen.
I briefly turn to other issues. We are very supportive of extending the prescribing rights to additional healthcare professionals, as the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and my noble friend Lord Bradley outlined. It is time that this issue was resolved. We intend to support or table amendments in Committee requiring proposals and a timetable for additional prescribing rights.
We will seek clarification about Northern Ireland and regulatory divergence. We will probe the changes to the hub-and-spoke proposals. We will look closely at the work of the proposed patient safety commissioner, the medical devices register and, of course, the impacts of the Bill on animal medicine and veterinary regulation.
Although only 46 clauses, the Bill is a veritable cornucopia of medical and other proposals. We hope to work with the Minister, the Bill team and other noble Lords to improve it and make it worthy of the importance attached to it.
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, what a debate. This is without doubt the House of Lords at its best, with thoughtful and powerful points covering medical regulation, legal propriety, patient safety, the European transition, animal welfare, foreign relations and much more. We have listened to powerful points made by 50 speakers. There was a great deal to take in. Our time together in Committee and on Report promises to be rich with important material. I fear I will therefore be unable to address every single point from every noble Lord who has spoken today, but I will give it my best shot.
Noble Lords addressed five broad themes in their contributions: my noble friend Lady Cumberlege’s review, improving regulation for medicines and medical devices, the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee report, organs and tissues, and the UK’s future relations with the EU. I will take them in turn.
I am exceptionally grateful to my noble friend Lady Cumberlege for her report and her contribution today. Noble Lords have sent a clear message to the Government and the public that patient safety must be paramount in how we regulate medicines and medical devices. My noble friend is right that patients should be believed. She is also right that it is counterproductive to create an environment in which health professionals clam up or go into hiding. I note her intention to table an amendment on a patient safety commissioner and the large number of noble Lords who expressed their support.
The noble Lord, Lord Alton, gave poignant testimony from his own long-standing campaign on these important causes, including on Primodos. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, spoke of the epistemic injustices towards the disfranchised, and the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, spoke movingly about mesh, giving testimony of what she called “medical misogyny” that was hugely uncomfortable. There is a limit to how much I, as a man, can really understand all these cases, but as a husband and a father of two daughters I understand the claim that our healthcare system has not treated women fairly. This Government and this Minister are committed to doing what we can to address this.
I have heard the clear commitment from many Peers, including the noble Lords, Lord Brooke and Lord Patel, the noble Baronesses, Lady Ritchie, Lady Uddin and Lady Watkins, and my noble friend Lord Sheikh to see the report of my noble friend Lady Cumberlege implemented. I said that I would listen, and I have heard very clearly the support for a patient safety commissioner. The nine strategic recommendations in the review need to be considered carefully and we will respond in due course.
I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, who asked that registries of devices as well as databases should be our expressed direction of travel: we have set this out in the government guidance published alongside the amendment. I would be happy to write to set this out clearly. Many have spoken of the importance of Clause 16 and the underpinning of data. I assure Members that we are able to capture all devices where it is considered necessary to track their use. My noble friend Lord Mancroft is quite right that it is unacceptable in the 21st century, and makes no sense, that our National Health Service cannot keep track of who puts what in whom, and we are determined to change that.
The noble Baronesses, Lady Barker, Lady Walmsley and Lady Andrews, and the noble Lords, Lord Patel and Lord Brennan, raised patient safety. That must be a first consideration. I concur completely with the Minister in the other place that patient safety is paramount—under no circumstances will we seek to make changes that increase risk to patients in the UK. It is absolutely right that we ensure the delicate balance between supporting innovation and maintaining the UK’s position as an attractive place to develop new medicines and devices, but patient safety remains paramount. Innovation and patient safety are not mutually exclusive, and we want to continue to ensure that our regulatory framework facilitates the furtherance of both.
Several noble Lords mentioned the importance of consultation with patient safety groups on regulation that directly affects patients. I reassure all noble Lords that the consultation clause is worded such that where matters affect a particular group or groups, it will be entirely appropriate for them to be consulted.
I turn to the improved regulation of medicines and medical devices. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, expertly described the need to ensure the safety of medical devices. This is something I have indicated that we are wholeheartedly committed to, as indicated by the inclusion of Clause 16. The Government are determined to deliver regulatory change to the current UK system for medical devices to increase patient safety and drive pre-market scrutiny, and we will continue to assess opportunities to improve the wider regulatory system at the end of the transition period. The Bill is vital as it provides the necessary powers that will allow us to make regulatory changes in the interests of patient safety and confidence. The Government are committed to ensuring that patients continue to have rapid access to new medicines, and we have increased access through the early access to medicines scheme. We recognise the importance of innovation and clinical trials for patients and are absolutely committed to building on the UK as a centre of excellence for trials after the end of the transition period. We will ensure that no patients are disadvantaged.
I reassure my noble friend Lord Balfe that the UK already has substantial capacity and expertise to regulate and evaluate the safety of our medicines and medical devices. The Bill ensures that the legal frameworks around medical devices, human medicines, veterinary medicines and clinical trials can be updated to protect patient safety and reflect innovative practices. This is vital as negotiations on the UK’s future global relations continue, as several noble Lords alluded to.
I agree with the noble Baronesses, Lady Redfern and Lady Whitaker, and the noble Lords, Lord Ramsbotham, Lord Bhatia, Lord Willis and Lord Bradley, that it is right that patients are treated by the healthcare professional best qualified to care for them, including prescribing for them where that is safe and appropriate. However, putting individual professions on the face of primary legislation is not the right platform for any potential amendments to medicine supply or prescribing responsibilities. Over time the roles of staff within the health service will evolve and, using this proposed power, professional groups can be given new or additional powers to supply or prescribe medicine, subject to consultation, by amending human medicines regulations. NHS England and NHS Improvement are considering across all non-medical groups, influenced by learning from the Covid-19 pandemic, where there is a need to consider undertaking formal consultation on potential amendments to prescribing responsibilities for several professional groups.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, spoke of his frustration that the NHS is slow to adopt new technologies. He is right. Uptake of new medicines is still too slow, and we are working to address that. We recognise the importance of aligning regulatory and health technology assessment processes to ensure timely access to effective medicines.
My noble friend Lord Lansley is right that 10% of global medical innovations in the UK is good—but it is not good enough. I welcome his persuasive points on a new innovation fund and confirm that the Government have made a commitment to support innovative medicines by extending the successful Cancer Drugs Fund into an innovative medicines fund. The Cancer Drugs Fund shows the impact that this approach can have for patients, with 81 drugs treating 167 cancer indications funded by the CDF since July 2016.
I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, that there is no contradiction between an intention to change very little in the immediate future and a commitment to evolving our domestic regime to protect patients, to meet the opportunities of technical revolution and to make Britain a destination for life sciences investment, clinical trials and better health services for patients.
My noble friend Lord O’Shaughnessy spoke wisely about the regulatory arms race, the impact of the FDA’s competitiveness and the opportunity of leaving the EMA. I welcome my noble friend Lady Blackwood’s point about the fact that the Bill is incredibly timely, irrespective of EU exit. I am proud of the energy and flexibility that the MHRA has shown during the response to Covid. I agree wholeheartedly with my noble friend Lord O’Shaughnessy that this is an opportunity that must be taken.
The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, speaks knowledgeably about falsified medicines and the importance of commercial data. I reassure him that our objective is to fully consult with industry, patient groups, pharmacists and all interested parties on any regulatory changes before they are implemented.
To the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, I say respectfully that I reject the idea that we need to move away from the intellectual property rights regime that has provided incentives to create new inventions and accelerate the development of health technologies, such as Covid vaccines, over more than a generation.
By way of conclusion of this point, I echo my noble friend Lady Blackwood, who set out the opportunity well: there are key areas of regulation where we must choose to develop new regulatory regimes, including gene therapies, genetics, AI and big data. The Bill will help us to produce future-proof, proportionate regulations and standards in full consultation and largely with affirmative regulations that will have full parliamentary scrutiny.
On the question of parliamentary scrutiny, I turn to the DPRRC report. I reassure noble Lords that the majority of the delegated powers in the Bill are not new. They are absolutely necessary if we are to have the appropriate powers to make changes to the critical regulatory frameworks after the end of the transition period. We can currently make changes to those frameworks under Section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972, but that power will not be available once we have left the EU and we cannot allow those regulations to stagnate. While oversight of the delegated powers in the Bill will be different from that which currently occurs, we have taken deliberate steps to ensure that the oversight will involve greater parliamentary scrutiny and secure greater involvement by patients, industry and other experts. We will carefully consider the specific and detailed recommendations of the DPRRC as to how we might go further.
As reiterated by my noble friend Lady Blackwood, the majority of regulations are subject to the draft affirmative procedure—a high level of scrutiny that has usually been applied when we have used Section 2(2) of the European Communities Act 1972. As noble Lords know, by its nature this procedure requires parliamentary approval before those regulations may be made and come into force.
I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Blencathra for early sight of his speech, which was a model of courtesy and delicacy. I have heard his message loud and clear. I would welcome his counsel on the central challenge of how to legislate for a fast-moving industry in which there is so much opportunity and so much danger, but also so much uncertainty.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, called for sunset clauses. Here I must express some scepticism. Sunset clauses would emasculate a Bill that is meant to give regulators the powers to be effective and to future-proof medical regulations in a fast-changing industry for many years to come. We must understand the impact on an industry that needs regulatory certainty or else, as many noble Lords have noted, will move elsewhere.
I firmly agree with my noble friend Lord O’Shaughnessy that the Bill gives us the ability to respond flexibly in future to regulate, for example to support the transformation of community pharmacy, to respond to innovations in the market and to improve standards of scrutiny of medical devices. Without the powers in the Bill to update the existing comprehensive regimes, we will be in danger of having static rules that could jeopardise patient safety. We must not allow ourselves to end up in this position.
The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, suggested that there is no scrutiny of the regulations generated under this Bill, but in fact the regulations come back to Parliament and cannot be enacted without scrutiny. I assure the noble Baronesses, Lady Andrews and Lady Walmsley, that we are certainly listening carefully. We are open to ideas for improving the Bill.
I welcome the constructive remarks by my noble friend Lord Lansley, my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, on the building of a clear framework for the Bill. I have sought to outline such a framework in my remarks on patient safety, availability and attractiveness. I anticipate that these thoughts will be developed ahead of Committee and I look forward to further discussions on these points.
On China and organs, I have heard clearly the points of the noble Lords, Lord Hunt, Lord Collins, Lord Sheikh and Lord Alton, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, the noble Baronesses, Lady O’Loan and Lady Northover, and my noble friends Lord McColl and Lord Ribeiro on imported human tissue, the suggested role of British firms in enabling this trade, the plight of the Falun Gong and the Uighurs, and potential forced organ donors. As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, put very clearly, the idea that British companies are profiting from these trades is abhorrent.
The noble Lord, Lord Collins, is right that we have one of the most ethical regimes for human tissue use in the world, and I share his concerns that we should in no way enable a horrible trade. I recognise that noble Lords are concerned about reliance on overseas reassurances, as outlined in the Human Tissue Act, and I hear these arguments clearly. I note that the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, will bring an amendment with the support of other noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, and my noble friend Lord McColl. I reiterate my offer to the noble Lords, Lord Alton and Lord Hunt, and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay: I would be happy to meet them to discuss this in further detail and will take this up with my noble friend Lord Ahmad, Minister for South Asia and the Commonwealth.
On EU exit, I am committed to ensuring that the UK has one of the best regulatory regimes that ensures patient safety and that patients benefit from innovative products. My noble friend Lord Lansley and the noble Lords, Lord Turnberg, Lord Kakkar and Lord Sharkey, raised the EU clinical trial regulations, which are currently expected to take effect during 2022. I am committed to ensuring that the UK’s regulatory framework for clinical trials is geared towards providing the best possible environment that takes into account the needs of patients, industry, non-commercial researchers and hospitals. That is why this Bill is so critical. The powers will ensure that we have the flexibility to adapt our regulatory framework and that the UK retains a thriving clinical trials environment, so that those engaged in clinical trials can continue to develop innovative and cost-effective treatments that both benefit patients and boost growth.
To the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, I say that I am totally committed to improving the clinical trials regime. I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, who touched us all with her account of the life-saving efficacy of modern medicines, that we are looking to give the MHRA the resources it needs to provide the best regulations and to give horizon-scanning intelligence and industry insight to help innovation.
The noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Freyberg, highlighted the importance of data. We are considering how to improve the regulation of software-driven devices, including AI and algorithms, and will consult on this. The Bill provides a power to make regulations about the use of data collected for the purpose of preventing the supply of falsified medicines.
Currently, the EU scheme information held on the system can also be used for the purpose of reimbursement, pharmacovigilance and pharmacoepidemiology. Determining the best model for the UK will be subject to consultation and parliamentary scrutiny of the proposed regulations. I will be happy to follow up with further detail in writing.
To my noble friend Lord Balfe, whose knowledge of European democratic structures is extensive, I say that we should embrace the opportunity we have now to discuss our own future and regulatory system here in this place. However, we should continue to work with our international partners.
A number of noble Lords referred to the importance of co-operation with the EU and EMA. As outlined in our approach to negotiations with the EU, we want to agree with the EU an annexe on medicinal products to facilitate trade and support high levels of patient safety.
The noble Lords, Lord Hunt and Lord Rennard, referred to the guidance published yesterday on standstill arrangements. We recognise the importance of continued access to medicine and medical devices. Therefore, to ensure continuity of supply of medicines and medical devices from 1 January 2021, the UK will unilaterally recognise certain EU regulatory processes for a time-limited period. By communicating this well in advance of the end of the transition period, we are providing industry with clarity on the preparations that need to be taken for the 1 January and beyond to ensure the supply of vital goods to UK patients. I would be happy to meet the noble Earl, Lord Devon, to discuss his concerns.
The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, referred to arrangements in Northern Ireland and I want to underscore that the implementation of the Northern Ireland Protocol is a top priority for the Government.
There is much more that could be said about the debate tonight. It is a testament to the interest in these issues and the importance of getting this right. I welcome the scrutiny of noble Lords in seeking to make the Bill better, as we so diligently try to do when it reaches us.