Live Debate: Commons Chamber

Lords Amemdment 49D - Government Motion To Disagree. Rt Hon Peter Kyle MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Hove and Portslade, Labour)

- -

14:37

Dr Ben Spencer MP (Runnymede and Weybridge, Conservative)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

been agreed to buy the house. Is honourable members no, the substance of this bill began with the previous government in recognition of the need to streamline the use of data to grow the economy and drive improvement in public services. As I said before, when this bill started life, most of us had no idea it would be the vehicle for addressing some of the most important social and technological issues of our time. While I welcome the huge benefits the data bill will bring to the economy and public services when it comes into force, I fear this bill will go down in the record as the bill of missed opportunities.

A missed opportunity to fix our datasets which present a barrier to tackling inequalities, a missed opportunity to commit to a review of opportunity to commit to a review of protections for children and the use of social media platforms and commit to taking action to increase those protections where the evidence shows there is good reason, and a missed opportunity to provide much-needed certainty to 2 of our key growth industries. The creative sectors over how they could interact to promote their mutual growth and flourishing.

It can be seen somewhat dispiriting to be back at the despatch boxes having a debate of copyright and AI. But I see there has been an upgrade since our last outing at the dispatch. I would like to say that I do pay tribute to the Secretary of State for the approach, particularly with mistakes made. I think we don't say sorry or recognise mistakes where we want things to have gone better enough, and I appreciate him making the statements at the despatch boxes, but the fact is that it is a testament to determination and sincere concern of both benches with the concern that we must not miss this opportunity to find a solution to such a significant challenge.

Our colleagues in the other place of spoken about their commitment to this house and they are reticent to delay the passage of this bill even further than is necessary. There resolve looks at the importance of this issue to members of both houses and the stakeholders they represent. The government has spoken repeatedly about creating the industries, but their action is still yet to match their rhetoric. It would appear that, today, reviews have been upgraded to working groups. Many excuses had been made for why the government feels unable to act now.

government feels unable to act now. Lords of axed in good faith on the state of concerns and sought to address them in the latest iteration of transparency amendment or copyright and AI. Lords Amendments provides flexibility for the government to put in place proportionate regulations on the transparency of enterprises. Importantly, it allows reasonable timeframes for the government to complete its review of responses in its consultation before the Secretary of State is compelled to lay transparency regulations before lay transparency regulations before Parliament.

For the third time, immense on this topic received the overwhelming support of honourable members and the other place, and the debate in the last round showed the strength of feeling is mirrored in this house. Amendment 40 9D is a clause which puts in place a much- needed long stop date to provide certainty that creatives have been calling for as the honourable member suggested a backstop so to speak. The government has run out of excuses for failing to act. Today we have an opportunity to do something rare in the climate to create effective balance legislation based on cross-party compromise.

It is important to show that we are able to put sound principles at the politics when need arises. The government has an opportunity today to let's make sure it is not a to let's make sure it is not a

14:41

Victoria Collins MP (Harpenden and Berkhamsted, Liberal Democrat)

- -

I rice to speak on amendments as the Bill returns to this house in the House of Lords. I am grateful to fight for creatives, while securing the principle of proportionality. I'm also grateful for cross-party working support in this house and movements from the Secretary of movements from the Secretary of State today. I know many of you have signed various amendment standing up for creatives, and a call for colleagues to consider how they vote today on this amendment.

At its very core, the amendment will look at companies to provide copyright and as with relevant information about how their works are being used for development and training. This is between the data holder and the copyright owner to make sure it is accessible to copyright owners upon request, and behind this are real

**** Possible New Speaker ****

people, real communities and a rich tapestry of 126 billion creative industries. I thank my honourable friend for

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I thank my honourable friend for giving way. My constituency of Stratford-upon-Avon has always been Stratford-upon-Avon has always been a place where arts and creativity flourish. Does my friend agree that flourish. Does my friend agree that government action is needed now to ensure that a British artist, musician, artist and William Shakespeare's of the future are Shakespeare's of the future are fully protected and compensated by

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the big tech companies? Indeed, I was going to say, I'm sure that every MP here will have sure that every MP here will have local creatives from artists. I have Tabatha Mary who has pictures from Tabatha Mary who has pictures from around towns in my constituency. We have musicians, and in have musicians, and in Hertfordshire, we have film studios such as Elstree, Warner Brothers, leaf stem, and I'm sure many of these will be following this debate. Their life's work, their paintings, performances, they are feeding into systems and they have no way of knowing.

They want to work hand-in- hand with technology and AI but our creatives are calling for a fair playing field, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. I was recently approached by the British deaf Association with concerns about AI companies getting videos of BSL without consent from original signers, and I was curious what AI would say about this issue, so I asked it to write in the style of one of the members. I didn't ask the Secretary of State, but I thought it would be quite interesting.

I would highlight it said that the Minister was known for his old articulates style, often leaving sharp analysis with a touch of wit but I will let others be the judge of whether AI has encapsulated that. Ladies and gentlemen, we stand at a crossroads, one where technology and creativity are colliding, not in conflict but collaboration. For centuries, imagination has driven progress, art, design and innovation, and now, AI is in the mix, not replace human ingenuity but to challenge it, expand it, and the question isn't whether AI is coming, it is here, the real question is how do we harness it to elevate human creativity? It asked a very good question, and to harness and elevate that human creativity, they are calling for transparency, so today, we are at the crossroads with the opportunity to debate this, so as the bill is nearing completion, I urge the government to look at this compromise and accept that the tone and the movement today is very welcome and this is very much

**** Possible New Speaker ****

needed. Will the member agree with me that what this proves is that AI that what this proves is that AI can't capture the wit and humour can't capture the wit and humour that is brought to this chamber, and it is a poor copy of what it

**** Possible New Speaker ****

it is a poor copy of what it I think the House has spoken on that. True leadership in AI means building in respectful creativity including in the House of Commons, including in the House of Commons, and we can build an AI power future where technology and human ingenuity where technology and human ingenuity flourish together. But only if we start with transparency. We can be a world leader in setting a standard for creativity technology to work for creativity technology to work together.

So I invite all colleagues from all parties to join us today in supporting amendment 49 D and setting the direction for transparency. And the principle in the age of AI that human creativity still matters.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker.

14:46

Pete Wishart MP (Perth and Kinross-shire, Scottish National Party)

- -

This is the second time we have considered this amendment in this House was not this is the second time the government has just said trust me I want to get on with it. They say they want to set up all sorts of working groups, and none of sorts of working groups, and none of us have any definitive objection to what the government wants to do. What we want is action now. The Secretary of State stood and said there is no certainty in the copyright laws just now.

There is absolute certainty, that is exactly what there is. You can check back in Hansard. That is what he said. That is where the concern and anxiety comes in. They might get a technical victory today because of the financial issues once again. But it will come back again from the House of Lords. Everyone is united with the House of Lords when it comes to these issues. And everyone wants a solution, nobody agrees with the government position except that AI firms that seek to benefit from the unauthorised use of our culture.

The anger is growing. Our constituents get increasingly concerned about how our artists are being treated. If you look at Sir Elton John's reaction on Thursday, not just against the government front bench the way he feels so dismissed, that he is even threatening legal action. Surely reform is compromised. And surely it goes some way towards the creative sector in giving them something that they want, this Lords Amendment presents that approach. It respects the financial prerogatives of this government, and it has taken on board what the Frontbench have said.

I would urge the government, please reconsider its position, and engage seriously on the substance of the amendment. The amendment addresses copyright holders calls for transparency without imposing immediate enforcement costs. It does do is require AI developers to provide copyright rules with clear, accurate, relevant and accessible distribution on how their works have been used. Nothing could be fairer than that. What it allows is the than that. What it allows is the government to decide and therefore avoiding obligations on spending.

We must surely start to work together on the basis of what has been agreed between both houses, and try and ensure that we get something that meets everybody's concerns. That has to start with this Lords Amendment. I urge at this late stage for the government to accept it, and encourage the backbenchers who have made fantastic contributions. Who have stood up to this government, vote against them, will show exactly how strong we feel about this issue. So encourage Labour colleagues to back us today this amendment.

14:49

Rt Hon Sir John Whittingdale MP (Maldon, Conservative)

- -

Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I have to say I'm slightly surprised the lack of any government backbencher willing to speak in support of the government's position which means I will have more time available to speak than I had initially thought to be the case. I am not going to repeat a lot of the arguments that we have had in that lengthy debates that have taken place. But I wanted to make one or two map points. The Secretary of State in his contribution said that he had never mentioned the word uncertainty.

I have to say that does contrast with an off a lot of the debate we have had previously when his colleague the Minister for Care rate of industries has talked about there being uncertainty.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

You must've missed several debates why express said I do not think there was any uncertainty

**** Possible New Speaker ****

think there was any uncertainty about the law as it presently stands. I think the ministerial forward

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I think the ministerial forward to the consultation paper actually suggests there was uncertainty. That has been consistently one of the has been consistently one of the reasons why the government says it needs to carry out all of these consultations. Even if the law is consultations. Even if the law is clear, as the secretary of state suggests, I personally believe it is clear, the important thing is it can clear, the important thing is it can only be enforced if those who had their copyright breached are aware their copyright breached are aware that it is taking place.

That is why transparency is critical, something transparency is critical, something I know the Government has acknowledged. The Secretary of State this afternoon has said he will this afternoon has said he will setup more working parties. The concern we have is, as the Secretary of State has just said, large amount of copyrighted material are already scraped by generative AI. In his working parties and further consultation, and we wait to hear when legislation might actually arrive, means it will be another few years before we actually have this on the statute book.

There is an opportunity to have something on the statute book now. And he will be aware that the existing provisions, they are simply being ignored. They are not working. And it is important that we act immediately to send a very clear signal that we expect transparency to be in place for AI generative companies to properly remunerate licence holders. The other provisions I would like to mention, the government have said that the amendment from the House of Lords engages Financial Privilege.

The clerks may have advised. I am merely suggesting that actually it is very unclear. It is very unclear how it can engage Financial Privilege, where it says that the provision of the House of Lords has made does not contain any requirement on the government to indulge in financial expenditure. And I want to say I think it is a worrying precedent, if the government is going to avoid debate

**** Possible New Speaker ****

on the policy by suggesting that it may... Order. I do think it would be

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Order. I do think it would be awful if I clarified that that is a matter for the chair. And not for the government.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the government. I of course accept the ruling Madam Deputy Speaker. I just say Madam Deputy Speaker. I just say that it looks very strange when that it looks very strange when there is no financial requirement. I will just finish one further point. I understand the Secretary of I understand the Secretary of State's keenness to attract State's keenness to attract investment for the tech companies. I would just say to him that previously, we have debated legislation affecting tech legislation affecting tech companies, on each occasion we have heard that it may result in them being unwilling to come and invest being unwilling to come and invest in this country for that has never been the case.

I hope that the secretary of state will not listen to those who say that if we proceed to enforce copyright law may somehow result in tech companies fighting this country unattractive full stop I don't believe it is the case. I don't believe that it will jeopardise jobs which I know the Government is keen to create. But unless we proceed down this route with the amendment in the House of Lords, it will jeopardise the jobs of the 2.4 million people in this country who are employed in the creative industries.

creative industries.

14:54

Division

The question is that this house disagrees with the Lords in their amendment 49 D. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye". And of the contrary, "No". Division, clear the

14:55

Division: Lords Amemdment 49D - Government Motion To Disagree.

The The question The question is The question is that The question is that this The question is that this House disagrees with the Lords in their amendment. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye". And of the contrary, "No". Tellers for the ayes Kim Eber and Christian Wakeford. Tellers for the noes Charlie Maynard

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Locked Locked the Order, Order, order.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The eyes to the right, 195. The nose to the left, 124.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

nose to the left, 124. The eyes to the right were 195. The nose to the left, 124, so the The nose to the left, 124, so the eyes have it, the eyes have it. eyes have it, the eyes have it. Unlock. Minister to move that a

**** Possible New Speaker ****

committee be appointed to draw up reasons. I baked a move that a committee

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I baked a move that a committee be appointed to draw up a reason to be assigned to the Lords for be assigned to the Lords for Peter Kyle will be the chair of the committee. That the committee do withdraw. Collins be members of the committee. Peter care be the chair of the committee. The committee do withdraw immediately. As many of that opinion, say I of the contrary, no. opinion, say I of the contrary, no.

That concludes consideration That concludes consideration of That concludes consideration of the Lords message relating to the data use and access bill Lords. We now come to motion number two relating to business at the house today.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Minister to move. I beg to move.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I beg to move. The question is is on the order paper. As many of that opinion's AI. paper. As many of that opinion's AI. I think the eyes have it. We now come to the Select Committee statement on behalf of the Business

15:09

Select Committee Statement: Select Committee Statement on the Sixth Report of the Business and Trade Committee, How to strengthen UK-EU relations: Policy Priorities for the Summit, HC 908

statement on behalf of the Business and Trade Committee. Liam Byrne will speak up to 10 minutes during which speak up to 10 minutes during which no interventions can be taken. At the conclusion of his statement, I will ask members to ask questions on will ask members to ask questions on the subject of the statement. They should be brief questions are not should be brief questions are not speeches. Can I emphasise that questions should be directed to the Select Committee chair and not the relevant government minister.

Frontbenchers may take part in questioning.

15:09

Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)

- -

Thank you. I rise to speak to the house today on behalf of business and trade committee, a roadmap for the EU reset, and in doing, I hope you will forgive me for using this moment to share my profound thanks to the members of the committee who are both diligent and hard-working, and from our earliest days together as a committee, it was very clear to all of us that relationships with the European Union had been trapped in the past while all of that was better, the past was unsatisfactory and could be richer if we chose to reset that with more ambition.

We sense that was part of the government, and we asked ourselves what could be done in order to move forward this relationship not distracted by some kind of fantasy but informed with a real hardheaded and pragmatic focus, so we travel to Brussels to Belfast, to trade unions, diplomats in the European commission, and we looked at trade barriers, and I'm afraid to say an awful lot of lost opportunities. We asked one simple question, how can we make these arrangements better.

We didn't seek to open old wounds. What surprised us is that it was not difficult to find 21 different ways in which our relationship with the European Union could be reset in a way that would make our country better and cut the red tape which is throttling trade with the EU. These are not abstract aspirations. A practical and deliverable and supported by an overwhelming coalition of business groups that we met with. The proposals that we presented were backed by business and good for our country.

We divide the work into three ambitions, opportunities to defend and add opportunities to defend and add prosperity. And third, to cut trade and border. We have coordination to tackle crime at the World Trade Organisation, including UK participation in the new dispute procedures because a rule-based order is not just idealism for us. It is insurance. On energy, we saw something extraordinary, and opportunity to unlock the potential of the Northsea as the world's biggest green energy power station.

But that demanded that we come together with the EU to bring together a single justice mechanism for trading and emissions trading. That could add up to a faster and cheaper part to net-zero for both us and European neighbours. On trade, we welcomed the ambition for an SPF agreement and a fair fisheries deal, but we pressed for some specifics. Mutual recognition of economic operator schemes, bilateral waivers, cooperation around Ro-Ro ferries, rejoining the pen convention, conformity assessment and a long- term roadmap for compatible deals.

We talked about the deeper cooperation on financial services, ensuring access and seeking out a new roadmap for mutual recognition and qualifications, producing barriers for touring artists and implementing overeager capped age With scheme. We published our draft report to test it, but the response was overwhelming. Support levels are between 80 and 90% for the measures that we proposed. Businesses said this is what we need because it will unlock growth, create jobs, and raise wages. On Monday, we saw some signs that the government had listened.

There was useful language on critical national infrastructure. There was a welcome step towards joining electricity and carbon markets together but we have to say that there was much that was left in the to-do pile. There was no ironclad commitment to policy. In my view, there was too little progress on law enforcement cooperation. I acknowledge it may come in the strategy when it was published. We thought there could have been more in financial service on data advocacy and mutual recognition of assessments.

And of course, this is a deal without a date. This was a handshake but not yet a contract. Yet it was an important start. After years of drift and division, this was the first time since Brexit that collectively, we have a chance to stop digging ditches of agreement and start rebuilding some bridges of cooperation. So this was a step forward but it was only a step. And what comes next must be really clear. We must now have a timetable for drawing up, finalising an implement in these agreements.

We think there should be action to take forward the unfinished business which we have set out in this report, and crucially, we think there should be a bigger role of Parliament because Parliament should not be a bystander while our future is forged. So, let's not retreat into the style but work pragmatically in the national interest because that is how futures When we are at our best we choose to lead. So I commend this report to

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the House. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker.

15:15

Sonia Kumar MP (Dudley, Labour)

- -

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Does my right honourable friend agree that consistency and clarity are exactly what this requires to are exactly what this requires to grow and thrive? This is why the government should consider this recommendation to consult with the industry's recommendation about maintaining the convention. Pan membership could support tariff free trade, simpler Rules of Origin, reduce trade barriers, support key sectors such as automotive, Manufacturing, chemicals and food production. By joining, British businesses would expand preferential market access to 25 countries thereby strengthening supply change and boosting the competitiveness of British exporters.

British exporters.

15:16

Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)

- -

Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. My honourable friend has made this point repeatedly in deliberations we have had. What has been especially welcome on that committee is the way she consistently brings the perspective of local businesses in her constituency, Dudley, the home of the Industrial Revolution. And she is right to say that subject to consultation in particular around the implications for the EV car industry, there could be some rules of origin that could radically cut red tape for many of the businesses in her constituency many businesses across our country, frankly could lower the cost at a time that it is much needed.

15:17

Dame Harriett Baldwin MP (West Worcestershire, Conservative)

- -

Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I thank the right honourable gentleman and his committee for their extensive piece of work in the reports that he has presented today? He mentioned the wide-ranging different tasks that the UK government had. He recommended that they pursue. Would he agree with me that it is disappointing that, of the things that the UK government wanted to achieve, the movement for touring artists and the participation in EU defence spending are left un-agreed, while the UK government seems to have agreed and traded one of our most valuable parts of the negotiation which is the access to our fishing grounds?

15:18

Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)

- -

I am very grateful for that point. She, like me, will know that although fisheries and the fishing industry constitutes quite a small part of our economy, 0.4% of GDP, for many coastal units this is an absolutely vital industry. Nevertheless, we felt, or certainly Nevertheless, we felt, or certainly I felt that the prize of an SPS agreement which can be worth a huge boost of up to £3 billion of four blue pounds a year, plus opportunities for shellfish in particular, was potentially a prize that was worth having.

But she is right to say that would be the biggest concern that many of us should have was around defence industrial cooperation. We cannot defend Europe in the way that we should. We cannot spend the increases in defence spending in the way that we should unless we reorganise Europeans fragmented defence industrial base. We cannot be stronger together unless we build that shared defence base together. I would very much hope this is something on which we will give an awful lot more progress in the Strategic Defence Review and indeed

**** Possible New Speaker ****

the national security review when those strategies are presented to Parliament before the summer recess. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker.

15:19

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Reports covered how we could help businesses export to the EU. I was businesses export to the EU. I was delighted to see Scottish salmon come out in support of the deal this week. Does my friend agree with me that it was baffling to the SNP stand with Reform and the Tories in

**** Possible New Speaker ****

opposition to the deal? The consensus that we received when we published the draft of it when we published the draft of it was overwhelming. The measures that we proposed were backed by an enormous majority of business

15:19

Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)

- -

enormous majority of business groups, including groups across Scotland. What I think business really sore is a very practical, hardheaded, recommendation, a set of recommendations I think should not only be supported by the Frontbench should be supported by those in public life across our country.

15:20

Charlie Maynard MP (Witney, Liberal Democrat)

- -

Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. And thank you Chair for your leadership and hard work on the committee. I very much welcome the moves this week, and I think they are moving in the right direction and aspirational statements of intent moving in the right direction. Does the chair back agree that we should focus on the big stuff? In terms of this, proportionality, the deal in India gets 0.1% of GDP by 2014. The American pack to get us back to a worse position than we were six months ago.

So Europe is where it is at the Europe represents 45% of our trade versus 12% in the US. And the 21 statements we set out were very beneficial of which five and six have been hit. The key thing is trying to go for the big stuff such as being back inside the customs union. That would make a big difference.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

The reports could not have been as well-written and strong and robust is recommendations that the

15:21

Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)

- -

robust is recommendations that the input of the honourable Member. We are very grateful for the hard work he put into getting this report rights. It wasn't a proposal as he knows, perhaps because the committee was not in unanimity to agree a bespoke customs union to stop what was striking is that the measures that were set out have been significant enough to offset the economic damage that we will suffer because of the tariffs introduced by resident drum. He is right that it is always wise to focus on the numbers, and the big numbers in trade come from a better stronger close relationship with the European Union.

15:22

Chris Bloore MP (Redditch, Labour)

- -

I congratulate the right honourable member for his stewardship of the committee. My inbox is full of emails from local businesses believe that after years of hesitation and no progress being put forward, finally we are in a dialogue with the EU about improving access to the EU for businesses in my constituency. Would he agree with me, by continuously speaking with the EU, and dealing with the red tape that has been promised to many businesses, we can finally get

**** Possible New Speaker ****

proper access to open up the markets that were leading companies need to access? My honourable friend has consistently been a strong voice for

15:22

Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)

- -

consistently been a strong voice for the does this community in his constituency since he joined us. He is absolutely right to say that what has for a long time been lacking in relationship with the EU is the kinetic energy that is required to drive any bureaucracy forward. The number of working groups that were set up, and I think in a cross-party spirit, I would say that it is important to note that the mood in Brussels significantly changed under the last prime minister, and progress that was made in that Windsor Framework, but unless you invest significant amounts of political attention and energy, things will not move forward.

There is still a long way to go. We have set out where things need to change this report but politics is what changes things was the and I hope it is something that can be sustained for the future.

15:23

John Cooper MP (Dumfries and Galloway, Conservative)

- -

Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Thank you to the honourable gentleman for his adroit chairmanship of the committee which has allowed for cross-party working which has been refreshing and good. It is a moment of regret, we did flag at the danger to fragile coastal communities that a deal on fishing could damage them badly, and the 12 year deal goes beyond anything we imagine. That will harm communities across Britain and particularly in Scotland. That's unfortunate. Would he agree with me that achieving an SPS deal must be balanced with the other deals that are coming down the tracks, India, America, and so forth? And we must have due care and I'm sure the committee will look at this, we must look to make sure that the Brexit Freedoms Bill allow us to strike those deals are not damaged.

To those deals are not damaged. To

15:24

Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)

- -

Your judgement is right. As we were composing this report, the honourable gentleman was consistently talking about the risks for Coastal Community Team if the deal goes the wrong way. We are all incredible grateful to him for advice you provided. He is right to say that we have obviously got to make sure we enshrine certain standards that allow us to draw close to Europe without compromising the alliances that are already coming into place or those who still need to strike to restore our role as the great free trading nation of this planet.

So the way in which the government is seeking to test this agreement with the United States, with a leadership of the CPTPP, with the deal with India, and with the deal is yet to come, with Korea and Switzerland, it is something that needs to be very carefully balanced. It looks like the government has just about got it right. I know that he likely will want that committee

**** Possible New Speaker ****

to keep an extremely close eye on this as the trade talks proceed. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. And I thank my honourable Friend for

15:25

James Naish MP (Rushcliffe, Labour)

- -

And I thank my honourable Friend for the excellent report which is very much rooted in pragmatism and practical steps which I note my constituents welcome. He has highlighted a gap as he sees it, the first step a lot more to do to stop what is committee undertake to monitor that gap between what the government is committed to and where he would like the government to be? Will he and his committee therefore continue recommendations to the

**** Possible New Speaker ****

government? My honourable friend disability rights to point this out. Good news

15:26

Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)

- -

rights to point this out. Good news for the Minister as he is now got the scrutiny framework in front of him that the committee will use to judge the progress that he is making, and of course this Parliament. But there is a moment that is still to come in this Parliament because at some point, we are not quite sure when, at some point there will need to be treaties that go before this house and this House has 21 days to scrutinise it.

That is not very long because of the committee has decided this week that we will open inquiries on the EU deal, the India deal, and the United States will stop we will seek to look at each of these trade deals before the summer so that the House be as well-informed as possible when the process begins. So we can really zero in on the issues that are at stake for our constituents.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm grateful to the chair of the

15:27

Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)

- -

I'm grateful to the chair of the Business and Trade Committee, for this thorough set of proposals and particularly the call for a greater role for Parliament. The committee rated its 20 proposals and marked as green UK-EU security act. But yet the Prime Minister a spokesman admitted that this is a first step towards UK participation in Europe's defence and divestment program. And I wondered if it open the door to joint procurement. Can the committee chair acknowledge how much more there is to do before this amounts to a shared industrial defence base?

15:27

Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)

- -

Yes, the other member is right. He knows because the extraordinary record of service that he brings to this place that there is an immense amount of work that we still need to do to conquer inefficiencies and fragmentation in the European defence industrial base. We cannot spend the money that we are proposing to spend on defence wisely unless we change the way that we procure equipment, by providing on the one hand greater certainty and long-term contracts, but also helping ensure that we are building that innovative ecosystem funding to help smaller innovative nimble agile suppliers come forward in the way that they can in order to ensure that the lessons that we have learnt on the battlefields of Ukraine do actually help inform our military strategy the future.

If there is one lesson we have learned, it is that any war fighting capability depends on the strength of our defence industrial base. Quite honestly to date is not in the right place, and we have to work hard on that with our partners. I hope the Strategic Defence Review set out some practical steps for how we will do that together with our allies in Europe.

15:28

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

- -

Congratulate the right honourable gentleman on his statement, and for the work of his committee. Clearly, renewable energy is an important part of our relationship with the European Union. What opportunity did his committee have to examine that, the trade and energy between the UK and European Union, particularly in the light of that civility in the near future of the deal between Morocco and the UK by way of the UK Morocco power projects? Who would know that if UK was to greenlight this, then other European countries certainly will.

15:29

Rt Hon Liam Byrne MP (Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North, Labour)

- -

The honourable member is actually right to say that Morocco is a country that we should be working more closely with, it is an exciting proposal. As a stable long-term partner to Europe, Morocco is a country with which we have a shared interest in the future. But I think the perspective that we brought to this question is how do we ensure a faster, cheaper, less resilient path to net zero for us and Europe? What was striking was evidence we had from any in the electricity and energy sectors about almost the thoughtless way we have been disconnected from electricity trading schemes.

What worried us in the near term is that, if we have, as we do, different carbon prices in the UK and Europe, there was a real risk that if Europe introduced a Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism, and we do later on, there will almost be tariff created because of the different prices. So we think the government has really done well in seizing that win-win, but that is not to take anything away from the project and the force of his remarks ultimately we need several big infrastructure initiatives like this if we are to do what we all know needs to be done in this country which is to drive down industrial electricity prices.

15:31

Select Committee Statement: Select Committee Statement on the Third Report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, Legislative Scrutiny: Mental Health Bill, HC 601