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Dan Carden (Liverpool Walton) (Lab)
Andrew Ranger (Wrexham) (Lab)
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Shabana Mahmood)
Today is the day that those on the Opposition Benches always knew was coming. The legacy of the previous Government was a prison system on the brink of collapse, which left us with no choice. Today, around 1,700 offenders have had to be released a few weeks or months early by changing their automatic release point from 50% to 40% of their sentence. Had we not done so, we faced courts unable to hold trials, police unable to make arrests and a total breakdown of law and order. This is not the long-term solution—there is more that we must do—but it was the necessary first step that we had to take following the disgraceful dereliction of duty of the previous Government.
Dan Carden
I refer hon. Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. One way to reduce pressure on numbers is to treat more offenders with drug and alcohol addictions outside the prison estate. That reduces prisoner numbers and reduces reoffending, which means fewer victims and fewer people returning to prison. Such a system is operating successfully in many parts of the country, but it requires the highest quality treatment. It also requires probation to work well, otherwise magistrates are limited in their choices. May I encourage the Secretary of State to get hold of Dame Carol Black’s internal review of treatment and recovery of drug-dependent people in the secure estate if she has not already done so? I have not seen it, obviously, but I am certain that it will contain many excellent recommendations.
Shabana Mahmood
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. He is right: good quality work on rehabilitation to reduce reoffending and deal with drug and alcohol issues is critical to dealing with not just the rehabilitation of offenders, but the prison system. He will know that nearly 80% of offending is reoffending, which is far too high. The situation at the moment is that it is impossible to do good-quality, rehabilitative work in prisons that are more than 99% full, with prisoners locked up for 23 hours a day, so the first step is to address capacity. Once we have done so, we will be able to build on recommendations made by experts in this area to make sure that we do everything we can to reduce reoffending.
Andrew Ranger
I thank the Secretary of State for her answer. My constituency of Wrexham is home to one of the UK’s largest prisons. It is well known that if an offender has fixed and secure accommodation to go to, they are less likely to reoffend. What steps is she taking to ensure that those released today under SDS40 will have accommodation on release, including in Wrexham?
Shabana Mahmood
We are working closely with colleagues from the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government to understand the impact on the housing sector, but, as is the case any time a prisoner is released, probation staff are working hard to prepare release plans, including permanent and temporary accommodation. If an offender is at risk of homelessness on release, they will be housed in community accommodation. We expect to provide housing for the majority of offenders using existing provision, but, should there not be enough, I have authorised probation directors to make use of alternative arrangements, including budget hotels, as a temporary measure for the cases that we will see in the next few weeks.
Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)
During the debate on early prisoner release in July, the impact assessment produced suggested that there would be 5,500 fewer prison places than planned for because of the need to meet the capital savings that were discussed at the time. When I raised that with the Secretary of State, she said that this matter would be under review. Can she now confirm that it is the Government’s intention to cut back prison places by 5,500 over the medium and long term?
Shabana Mahmood
The right hon. Lady will know that I have committed to publishing a 10-year capacity strategy. There are also live discussions as part of the Budget and spending review process. We have committed to delivering the shortfall of 14,000 places in our prison system, which the previous Government failed to do. That is a commitment that we have given. Those conversations are live conversations and I will report to the House in due course, but we will publish that 10-year capacity strategy before the end of the year.
Richard Tice (Boston and Skegness) (Reform)
Can the Secretary of State explain why, when some 10,000 foreign criminals are blocking up space in our jails, they are not being removed and deported, which would simultaneously save the British taxpayer billions of pounds every year and have the support of millions of British voters?
Shabana Mahmood
They are being deported, and they will continue to be deported. Nothing will change as far as the deportation of foreign national offenders is concerned, but the inheritance we received from the previous Government meant we had to take additional measures. The answer will not come from the deportation of foreign national offenders alone, but it is very much part of the picture.
Edward Argar (Melton and Syston) (Con)
Under the early release scheme starting today, the detail of which was designed by the Secretary of State, how many people will be eligible to be released at the 40% point who have been sentenced, for example, for offences under section 20, grievous bodily harm, and section 47, actual bodily harm, of the Offences against the Person Act 1861, both of which carry a maximum sentence of five years, but for which more often a sentence will be awarded that is less than five years?
Shabana Mahmood
The shadow Lord Chancellor will know that we have made important exclusions in the design of the policy and that all those who have committed serious offences and have been sentenced to four years or more will be excluded from it. I will not be able to give details on the specific mix of offences per offender, but those offences that would otherwise be included, but that relate to serious violence or sexual offences, have been excluded from the policy.
Edward Argar
I am grateful to the Secretary of State, but I have the statutory instrument and the list of exclusions in the schedule here, and those offences are not specifically included in that list of exclusions. My fear is—and this would be deeply disappointing—that many domestic abusers who were convicted for those offences but received fewer than five years may be eligible for early release and be considered for it, because her scheme does not explicitly exclude those offences. Given that, the reality is that the Government’s claim that domestic abusers will not be eligible to benefit from the scheme will ring very hollow to victims of domestic abuse and the wider public, won’t it?
Shabana Mahmood
With respect to the shadow Lord Chancellor, what will ring hollow to members of the public is the Tory party’s new-found commitment to exclusions for domestic abuse, and the sheer hypocrisy of talking about exclusions to this policy when he was a Minister in the previous Government who brought in the end of custody supervised licence scheme, which had no exclusions relating to domestic abuse whatsoever—[Interruption.] He talks about the governor lock from a sedentary position, but he knows full well that that was an attempt to shift the blame away from ministerial decision making and to place it on governors—something I am not sure was much appreciated by those who run our prisons. We have taken every step and every mechanism available to us to exclude offences connected to domestic abuse and, crucially, to give the probation service time to prepare—something the previous Government never did.
Mr Lee Dillon (Newbury) (LD)
It is clear that our prisons are at breaking point. The Conservatives’ failure to tackle the courts backlog has directly contributed to prison overcrowding. Thanks to their neglect and mismanagement, the Government have been left with no choice but to take these measures. However, the Lord Chancellor said in her statement in July that these measures would be reviewed
“within 18 months of implementation—at the very latest, in March 2026.”—[Official Report, 25 July 2024; Vol. 752, c. 833.]
That is a long time away, particularly given the various stories we are hearing about certain individuals being released. Will the Secretary of State once again confirm that no dangerous criminals will be released early?
Shabana Mahmood
We have taken every measure available to us to exclude offences from this measure. Serious violence, sexual violence and offences connected to domestic abuse have all been excluded, as have terror offences and so on—the hon. Gentleman will know the list of exclusions. We will work with our probation service, which has done a heroic amount of work over the summer to deliver this policy, in the coming months. We will also work very closely with criminal justice system partners to make sure that the roll-out of the scheme is as safe as possible. We have taken every measure, we will continue to keep matters under review and I will keep the House updated in due course.
Mr Speaker
We need to speed up a little. We are only now getting to Question 2.
Bobby Dean (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
Monica Harding (Esher and Walton) (LD)
Paul Davies (Colne Valley) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Sir Nicholas Dakin)
Hon. Members are right to focus on reducing reoffending. Nearly 80% of offending is reoffending, and it has an immense cost to the taxpayer and to communities. As the Lord Chancellor said, we have inherited a difficult situation in relation to prison capacity, which makes it harder to address the rehabilitation needs of prisoners. The House should have no doubt that this Government will roll up our sleeves and get on with the job of reducing reoffending.
Bobby Dean
My point speaks to what the Minister just said. The lack of prison capacity means that some people are locked up in their cells for 22 or 23 hours a day, and many prisons are ranked insufficient or poor for delivering purposeful activities such as education and training. How does the Minister plan to address that while we still have a bulging prison population? How will he increase the provision of those purposeful activities?
Sir Nicholas Dakin
We are taking the hard decisions that are necessary to create space and capacity in the Prison Service to address that issue. The hon. Member is right that the report from His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons identified the provision of sufficient purposeful activity as its No. 1 issue to address. We know that education and employment help to reduce significantly the chance of reoffending, and we will work to do that with the Prison and Probation Service.
Mr Speaker
Order. You are supposed to sit down, Minister! I know that you are enjoying the Dispatch Box on your return, but please do not over-enjoy it. I call Monica Harding.
Monica Harding
As my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Bobby Dean) mentioned, the chief inspector of prisons said this morning that prisoners can sometimes be banged up in their cells for up to 22 hours a day, that classrooms and workshops are empty, and that education and training are simply not given the priority they need. Does the Secretary of State agree that, in order to cut reoffending, it is time to introduce a proper workable plan to improve the rehabilitation of people leaving prison?
Sir Nicholas Dakin
My own example demonstrates that training and education are very important in whatever role one takes on, so I agree wholeheartedly with what the hon. Member says.
Paul Davies
Addressing literacy in UK prisons is crucial for successful rehabilitation. Improved literacy skills empower inmates with better job prospects, aiding their reintegration into society. Education fosters personal growth, self-esteem and decision-making abilities, which are essential for a crime-free life. Investing in prison literacy programmes is a vital step towards creating safer communities and offering inmates a genuine second chance. What comprehensive strategies are being implemented to address that?
Sir Nicholas Dakin
My hon. Friend is exactly right: literacy and numeracy are crucial. I was pleased to visit HMP Humber recently, where I saw excellent best practice. It is important that those programmes are in place, that we learn from best practice and that we continue to do our best in that area.
Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith and Chiswick) (Lab)
A key driver of rehabilitation and the prevention of reoffending is sentencing policy. In our manifesto, we promised a review of sentencing policy—quite properly. When is that likely to take place, and will it take account of the very interesting recent paper by former Lord Chief Justices on sentencing inflation?
Sir Nicholas Dakin
The paper to which my hon. Friend refers is a significant one, and I urge all Members to look at it. The Government are committed to a review of sentencing policy, and it will commence as soon as it can. We will report in due time.
Alison Hume (Scarborough and Whitby) (Lab)
Jayne Kirkham (Truro and Falmouth) (Lab/Co-op)
Dan Aldridge (Weston-super-Mare) (Lab)
Dr Marie Tidball (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)
Anna Dixon (Shipley) (Lab)
Liz Twist (Blaydon and Consett) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Alex Davies-Jones)
The Government are deeply committed to supporting victims of rape and sexual violence. To do that, we will increase the powers of the Victims’ Commissioner and get victims the information that they need, provide free legal advocates to uphold the rights of victims of rape, and fast-track rape cases to drive down waiting times for victims of those abhorrent offences.
Alison Hume
Last week, “Emmerdale” aired an upsetting episode dealing with the domestic abuse suffered by Belle Dingle. The storyline has shown just how difficult it can be for someone to leave an abusive relationship, not least because of the psychological control exercised by abusers. Some victims also need somewhere to go for safety. According to the latest available figures, Scarborough has the highest rate of reported domestic abuse in North Yorkshire, but there is still no refuge for victims in the town. Will my hon. Friend work with me, colleagues across Government and stakeholders to find the funding to ensure that a refuge finally opens in Scarborough?
Alex Davies-Jones
As an avid “Emmerdale” fan, I saw that harrowing episode. It goes to show the importance of TV drama in raising awareness of these vital issues. The Government are committed to halving violence against women and girls within a decade. The Ministry of Justice is working with Departments across Whitehall, including the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, to support local authorities to meet their statutory duties, including refuges for all victims of domestic abuse who need them. We know, though, that it is not just refuge support that is important; wider community-based support is important too, and the MOJ provides funding to police and crime commissioners to commission those vital services for victims.
Jayne Kirkham
Victims of alleged rape in Truro and Falmouth and across the country are having their trials pushed back for months, if not years, often very shortly before those trials are set to begin. That leads to severe distress for victims and families, and can have unintended consequences, such as bail conditions becoming outdated as victims wait so long for their cases to come to trial that addresses change in the meantime. Will the Minister please outline what she is doing to prevent or minimise the potential harm caused by such unintended consequences and to bring those long-delayed cases to a speedy conclusion?
Alex Davies-Jones
I thank my hon. Friend for highlighting the awful state our criminal justice system was left in by the previous Government. We are committed to ensuring swift delivery of justice for victims at all stages of the criminal justice system, and we are working closely with various partners to achieve that aim. We know that due to the complexity of their cases, rape victims often wait disproportionately long periods for their trial compared with victims of other offence types. Reducing waiting times for victims is a priority for me and this Government, which is why we have committed to fast-tracking rape cases through the justice system. I recently saw at first hand at Bristol Crown court how that can be done, and how our judges are working tirelessly to make it happen.
Dan Aldridge
Many will be watching with horror the extraordinarily disturbing case unfolding in France, in which drugs were allegedly used to facilitate the abuse of a woman by her husband and over 70 men. Like many across the House, I have received communication from victims of spiking in my town of Weston-super-Mare. They and I are keen to know what steps the Minister is taking to crack down on the devastating crime of spiking here in the UK.
Alex Davies-Jones
The case in France is truly shocking, and we have all looked on in horror as the details have unfolded. I commend the victim for her bravery in coming forward and making it public so that we can see the full aspects of the trial. Spiking is a despicable crime. We have committed to introduce a new criminal offence of spiking and we are considering how best to implement it. To be clear, in England and Wales, having sex with a person who cannot consent is rape, and spiking with intent to engage in sexual activity is a specific offence, with a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison.
Dr Tidball
Ten years ago, Jack and Paul Sykes, aged 12 and nine respectively, tragically lost their lives at the hands of their abusive father, who set their house on fire. Their mother, my constituent Claire Throssell, is a powerful campaigner against presumptive contact—a legal principle that allowed a known domestic abuser to access Jack and Paul. Will the Minister meet Claire and me to discuss how we can properly protect children from domestic abuse in our family court system?
Alex Davies-Jones
I thank my hon. Friend for that really important question. Claire’s tireless campaigning for families and children experiencing domestic abuse is inspirational, and my thoughts are with her and the whole community as the anniversary comes closer next month.
Both the criminal and family justice systems will play an essential role in delivering our commitment to halve violence against women and girls. The family court system must protect child victims of domestic abuse, and the new pathfinder courts provide more support for domestic abuse agencies and ensure that the child’s welfare and voice is at the centre of proceedings from the outset. The Government and I take the need to respond robustly to perpetrators within the family courts very seriously. The previous Government were reviewing the presumption of parental involvement. We are considering the findings and will respond in due course.
Anna Dixon
I draw the Minister’s attention to the work of Bradford council and West Yorkshire Mayor Tracy Brabin, who have launched the safety of women and girls initiative, together with a dedicated women’s safety unit within West Yorkshire police. What support can the Government offer to bolster the efforts of local authorities such as Bradford to stamp out violence against women and girls in our communities?
Alex Davies-Jones
My hon. Friend’s question gives me the opportunity to also place on record my thanks to Mayor Tracy Brabin for all the incredible work she is doing in this field. She is an outstanding champion for tackling violence against women and girls, and we should be doing more work like hers across Government.
As I have said, we are committed to halving violence against women and girls within a decade. We are supporting colleagues across Whitehall, including at the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, to ensure close collaboration with local authorities. In addition, the duty to collaborate under the Victims and Prisoners Act 2024 will facilitate improved multi-agency working and encourage all local commissioners to provide joined-up working for victims of all crimes, including violence against women and girls.
Liz Twist
This time last year, the Lord Chancellor announced her intention to introduce free legal advocates so that victims of rape can enforce their rights—for example, in relation to the use of their personal information in court. What progress is the Minister making in bringing forward that vital new protection for victims?
Alex Davies-Jones
In our manifesto, this Government were clear that we are committed to introducing free, independent legal advice for victims and survivors of rape, from report to trial. I am working with officials to develop this new policy and to ensure victims get the support they need to understand and uphold their rights as soon as possible. I plan to draw on lessons learned from the successful pilots in Northumbria, as well as from the Mayor of London’s current ILA pilot.
Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (North Cotswolds) (Con)
In the last Session, when the Public Accounts Committee looked at the effect of delays in the criminal justice system on serious sexual and rape cases, it found that some cases were taking five years or more from prosecution to trial, and that some of the poor traumatised victims were simply disappearing because they could not stand it any longer. Without entering into the blame game, what can the Minister do to improve that situation?
Alex Davies-Jones
The hon. Member is right that, although we do not want to get into the blame game, the current status of the criminal justice system is truly appalling. Rape trials are not getting as fast-tracked as they should be, and we are working at pace to try to remedy that situation. Currently, 60% of rape victims are pulling out of the criminal justice system. The attrition rate is far too high, and I am working with officials to improve that rate and to improve victims’ experience at court.
Mike Martin (Tunbridge Wells) (LD)
How many prisoners are going to be released today in Kent, and can the Secretary of State guarantee that none of them will be homeless within a month?
Alex Davies-Jones
As the Lord Chancellor has previously said, we cannot give exact figures for specific areas. However, we are working with other Departments, including the MHCLG, and with local authorities to ensure that those who are being released from prison today under SDS40 have the accommodation that they need. The Probation Service has been working around the clock to ensure that.
Mr Speaker
Order. That question pushed the boundaries a little bit. I think it should have been mainly about those who are rapists who are being released.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Minister for her answers, but what discussions has she had with Education Ministers about supporting victims of rape and sexual assault who are under 18 years of age within our educational institutions?
Alex Davies-Jones
I thank the hon. Member for his question. He will know that this Government have a mission to tackle violence against women and girls. As I have said, that vision pulls together Departments across Whitehall, including the Department for Education—I recently had a meeting with an Education Minister to discuss exactly that issue. I have been clear that sex with anyone who cannot consent is a crime, and we are working across Government to tackle it.
Josh Babarinde (Eastbourne) (LD)
From my own experience, I know that independent sexual violence advisers provided by amazing charities such as SurvivorsUK are critical guides to help survivors navigate their path to justice and peace. Could the Minister commit to redoubling her support for ISVAs and the organisations that make them available to the survivors who need them?
Alex Davies-Jones
I know that the hon. Gentleman is passionate about this field of justice. His question gives me the opportunity also put on record my thanks to ISVAs, who do immense work across this field day in and day out, supporting victims of these abhorrent crimes—the work they do is invaluable. This Government are committed to introducing independent legal advocates to help victims and survivors get the support they need, and we are working with our stakeholders across the sector to ensure that support is available.
Linsey Farnsworth (Amber Valley) (Lab)
Alex Baker (Aldershot) (Lab)
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Shabana Mahmood)
The criminal justice system rose to the challenge brought about by the violent disorder we saw over the summer. As of 22 August, 576 individuals have been brought before the courts. Of those, 123 have been given a custodial sentence by the Crown court.
Linsey Farnsworth
As a Crown prosecutor for 21 years, I know only too well that the court backlog has been worsened by repair issues forcing courts to close. What is the Secretary of State doing to address the repairs needed to the court estate, so that victims in my constituency of Amber Valley and across the country can get access to justice?
Shabana Mahmood
I thank my hon. Friend for that question. It is of course crucial that courts are in a position where the building—the infrastructure itself—does not prevent them from being able to sit. It will be a priority for this Government to resolve those issues, so that cases can be heard and victims can be given the justice that they deserve.
Alex Baker
It is clear that we have come dangerously close to running out of prison places in the last few months, which as the Prime Minister has rightly said, is
“about as fundamental a failure as you can get”.
Who does the Lord Chancellor blame for this failure, and does she think we will ever get a word of apology from the Conservative party for leaving our prison estate on the brink of disaster?
Shabana Mahmood
I would happily give way to anybody on the Opposition Benches if they would like to take up the invitation to offer an apology, but I do not think one will be forthcoming. I certainly do think that one is required given the state of the prison system that we have inherited, but it is our job to make sure that that never happens again. That is why we will be launching a review into how the current position was allowed to come to pass. The Conservative party ignored all the warnings, putting political gain ahead of the country’s best interests, and it will fall to this Government to fix it.
Neil O’Brien (Harborough, Oadby and Wigston) (Con)
The Government have rightly found prison places for those involved in the recent disorder, but they have done that by continuing their early release policy. Will the Secretary of State confirm that those guilty of manslaughter are among those able to get early release, and will she explain to the House why people guilty of manslaughter should be released early?
Shabana Mahmood
I think the hon. Member is guilty of wilful ignorance. He will know full well that the prison system that we inherited was on the point of collapse. The fact that some prison build that was already in course was able to be brought on line a little earlier to help us get over the crisis of the summer is testament to the people working at the frontline to make sure that those prison spaces were available, but we are still short of prison capacity. Prisons are still at over 99% capacity, and that is the legacy left by his Government. He will know that we have important exclusions to the SDS40 policy, and he will know that the offence and the sentence are both taken into account. I will not give a running commentary on exactly which sentences and which offenders are affected, but he knows what exclusions are in place.
Sarah Coombes (West Bromwich) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Alex Davies-Jones)
This Government are committed to improving the victim experience at court. We will work with the judiciary to fast-track rape cases to ensure timely justice for some of the most vulnerable within the criminal justice system. Additionally, this Government committed in our manifesto to introducing free, independent legal support for victims of rape from report to trial. We have also committed to strengthening the victims code and to increasing the Victims’ Commissioner’s powers to make sure that victims’ needs are met.
Sarah Coombes
For victims, giving evidence in a court can sometimes be a very difficult and distressing experience, which is why they sometimes prefer to give evidence via video link. Can the Minister set out what steps the Government are taking to ensure that more victims can give evidence via video link across our country?
Alex Davies-Jones
I thank my hon. Friend for that important question. Video links are available in all courts to help vulnerable and intimidated witnesses give evidence. We have recently invested £50,000 to transform witness facilities and upgrade video link rooms in 10 Crown courts. Pre-recorded evidence is also available in all Crown courts for eligible victims to spare them the trauma of giving evidence at a live trial.
Jess Brown-Fuller (Chichester) (LD)
To ensure that victims see justice, criminal cases need to be heard in a timely manner, which relies on a number of courts being in place to be able to hear them. The future of Chichester Crown court, which is the only Crown court in west Sussex, has been under threat for nearly a decade. Local campaigners fought to save that provision, leading to its reopening to clear the backlog, but its future remains uncertain. Will the Minister meet me to ensure the future of Chichester Crown court?
Alex Davies-Jones
We know that courtroom availability is essential to dealing with the backlog, and I will pass on that message to the courts Minister—the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Swindon South (Heidi Alexander).
Josh MacAlister (Whitehaven and Workington) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Sir Nicholas Dakin)
My hon. Friend is completely right: prison officer recruitment targets are essential. Prison officers do a fantastic job. We have seen how they have gone above and beyond over recent weeks and months, so I pay tribute to them. Nationally, we are currently above staffing targets, but challenges remain in certain sites with a high number of vacancies, and bespoke interventions are being developed for those sites.
Josh MacAlister
I thank the Minister for that answer, and I praise the Government team for the way they have responded to the complete chaos left in the wake of 14 years of a Conservative Government.
In my previous work I visited young offenders institutions, which have been left in total chaos by the last Government. Part of their recklessness was to start a botched recruitment process for the graduate recruitment training programme for prison officers. It is currently delivered by Unlocked Graduates, which is doing fantastic work. The Government’s chief inspector of prisons has said there is a real risk that that programme ending will add to the recruitment problems that the Government face. Will they restart that procurement process and meet me to discuss its future?
Sir Nicholas Dakin
I am happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss that matter. His Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service worked to reprocure the next iteration of the graduate scheme, with contracts for an open procurement exercise. Although Unlocked Graduates was identified as the winning bidder and was offered the contract, it did not confirm its intent to sign the contract. The Department is now working hard to come up with plans to put a graduate scheme in place for future years.
Mr Jonathan Brash (Hartlepool) (Lab)
Steve Darling (Torbay) (LD)
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Heidi Alexander)
It is good to be back. Mr Speaker.
The Government are committed to reducing caseloads and bringing waiting times down for court users across all jurisdictions. We continue to keep 18 Nightingale courtrooms open across eight venues, so that we have more physical capacity to hear cases in all jurisdictions. We plan to sit more than 105,000 days in the Crown court and more than 102,000 days in the family court this financial year, enabling us to work through as many cases as possible.
Mr Brash
Hartlepool’s court building has stood empty since 2017, after it was mothballed by the then Conservative Government. Will my hon. Friend investigate the potential for reopening Hartlepool’s court as part of our efforts to expand capacity and clear the backlog, and will she meet me to discuss the issue further?
Heidi Alexander
I hear you, Mr Speaker.
I welcome the question from my hon. Friend. He will know that His Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service keeps the court estate under regular review to ensure that it meets operational requirements. I am afraid there are currently no plans to reopen Hartlepool magistrates court, but I would be happy to meet my hon. Friend alongside officials from HMCTS to discuss his concerns. The reasons behind the increased caseload in our criminal courts are complex and multifaceted, but the number of courtrooms available is not the main constraint we currently face.
Steve Darling
Torquay magistrates court closed in the last decade, and therefore justice is served somewhat distantly from our communities in Torbay. Can the Minister assure the House that there will be some reviews to ensure that justice is served more locally to our communities in south Devon?
Heidi Alexander
I may be having another meeting, with the hon. Gentleman, as well as looking at the court in Chorley, and I am happy to discuss that matter with him.
Rebecca Smith (South West Devon) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Alex Davies-Jones)
This Government are deeply committed to supporting domestic abuse victims, and we provide funding to police and crime commissioners, who commission community-based support services for domestic abuse victims and survivors, and independent domestic violence advisors. Domestic abuse victims are automatically eligible for certain special measures in court such as screens or video links, and the pathfinder pilot in family courts aims to improve experiences and outcomes for children and families affected by domestic abuse.
Rebecca Smith
Devon and Cornwall-based domestic abuse charity First Light south-west, and national domestic abuse charity Hourglass, which works specifically with older victims, have highlighted to me the challenges that they face with short-term funding streams for their work. The current year-on-year funding model results in issues with the recruitment and retention of staff, which in turn impacts on service provision to victims. Specialist services are especially vulnerable given the nature of the support they provide. Will the Minister commit to providing sustainable long-term funding for frontline domestic abuse services, including for specialist services for older victim survivors, so as better to support victims in my constituency and across the country?
Alex Davies-Jones
The work that Hourglass and many others do is outstanding, and I place on record my thanks to it for championing the rights of older victims across the piece. The Ministry of Justice provides police and crime commissioners with annual grant funding to commission local practical, emotional and therapeutic support services for victims of all crime types. I am hearing loud and clear the calls from the sector, but it would be wrong of me to pre-empt the announcement of funding after March 2025. We cannot agree that before the spending review, but the Ministry of Justice has allocated £1.2 million of funding over two years to support the training and infrastructure of ISVAs and IDVAs and to support fantastic organisations such as Hourglass that do such brilliant work.
Jake Richards (Rother Valley) (Lab)
Another forum in which domestic violence is litigated is private children’s cases in our family courts. The Secretary of State and Ministers will no doubt be aware of the huge delays that families are suffering in having their cases heard and then those cases being decided. At the heart of that are children waiting for a conclusion. What steps are the Government taking to try to expedite those cases, in particular working with other agencies across government including the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service and local authorities?
Alex Davies-Jones
The Government recognise the importance of supporting separating families and, where appropriate, helping them to resolve their issues quickly and without the need to come to court. This is a complex area. My officials and I are working closely on it, and I would be happy to update my hon. Friend with a more thorough review soon.
Gareth Bacon (Orpington) (Con)
Domestic violence at its most severe becomes murder. Domestic murder is often the most shocking and brutal. With that in mind, what assessment has the Minister made of the Killed Women campaign?
Alex Davies-Jones
I am aware of the Killed Women campaign. I have liaised closely with it in opposition and now in government. Its aims are admirable. Any woman murdered by domestic homicide in this country is one woman too many. We know that sadly three women a week are being murdered. That is a shocking statistic that this Government are hoping to tackle.
Gareth Bacon
I thank the Minister for that answer. In light of that, will she commit to responding to the calls of Carole Gould, Julie Devey and Elaine Newborough and many others to address the injustice of the discrepancy between the starting point for sentences in domestic murder cases versus that for other murder cases? Will she do so in quick time, so that she can include appropriate measures in the forthcoming victims, courts and public protection Bill?
Alex Davies-Jones
I am meeting the women imminently to discuss this further, and the Government have committed to a thorough sentencing review.
Mr Paul Kohler (Wimbledon) (LD)
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Heidi Alexander)
We are committed to ensuring the swift delivery of justice for victims at all stages of the criminal justice system, and we are working closely with various partners involved to achieve that aim. In relation to the courts, we plan to sit more than 105,000 working days in the Crown court this financial year, and we continue to hear criminal cases at Nightingale courts. We are also considering other measures to speed up justice for victims, and we will make further announcements in due course.
Mr Kohler
I thank the Minister for her answer. After waiting seven years for the Grenfell inquiry to report, the bereaved families and survivors have now been told that they must wait two or possibly three years for a decision on whether and whom to prosecute. As Martin Luther King said,
“justice too long delayed is justice denied.”
I understand from the Crown Prosecution Service, which I met recently, that much of the delay is for the discovery process, where the welter of digital information must be assessed. Can the Minister tell me what is being done to address these delays and whether things such as artificial intelligence are being contemplated?
Heidi Alexander
As the Prime Minister made clear, those affected by the Grenfell tragedy have already waited too long for justice. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that anything in my or my Department’s power that needs to be done will be done. The Government fully support the Metropolitan police and the Crown Prosecution Service as they complete their investigations and bring prosecutions to trial, while respecting their operational independence. I am sure the use of all forms of technology will be considered in that process.
Sir Desmond Swayne
Perhaps too many barristers have become politicians, but however caused, how will the Minister address the shortage at the criminal Bar?
Heidi Alexander
I hesitate to answer the right hon. Gentleman’s question, given that my boss is a former barrister—I say that we cannot have too many.
Only last week I discussed the adequacy of numbers of legal professionals in the Crown court with the chair of the Criminal Bar Association, Mary Prior, and I will be working with the profession to ensure not only that we are recruiting sufficient barristers to work in the courts, but that we are retaining barristers at the criminal Bar.
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
Our team in Newport East are trying hard to raise the issue of how long cases are taking for constituents—we inherited those delays from the Conservatives—but even the CPS is taking months to answer basic queries about where the delays are in cases. Will the Minister urge the CPS to respond faster?
Douglas McAllister (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab)
Does the Minister agree that a properly funded legal aid scheme both here and in Scotland is essential for access to justice, and that the decline in this vital public service that both the Tories and the SNP have presided over is nothing short of disgraceful?
Heidi Alexander
What we are experiencing is the very long tail of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, which has meant that both the civil and criminal legal aid sectors have faced huge challenges. That is vital to people’s access to justice.
Olivia Bailey (Reading West and Mid Berkshire) (Lab)
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Shabana Mahmood)
On taking office two months ago, it was immediately clear that we had inherited a prison system at the point of collapse. That is why our emergency action, which will see certain offenders leave prison a few weeks or months early, has proved necessary. The measure takes effect today. I pay tribute to the work of the Prison and Probation Service, which has gone above and beyond the call of duty both in responding to the violent disorder in recent weeks and in preparing for the introduction of those measures. This marks the beginning of a rescue effort—one that will, in time, allow us to rebuild and reform our justice system in the years ahead.
Olivia Bailey
After the last Government left our prisons on the brink of collapse, I welcome the Secretary of State’s commitment to building new prisons and driving down reoffending. I also welcome her commitment to additional transparency. Does she agree that such transparency is a significant departure from the approach of the previous Government, who released thousands of prisoners early in secret?
Shabana Mahmood
My hon. Friend is absolutely right that it is a significant departure from the approach of the previous Government, who introduced an early release scheme—the end of custody supervised licence scheme—that operated under a veil of secrecy, with no data ever published on the numbers released. It took our Government to publish the data showing that more than 10,000 offenders were released under that scheme. I am pleased to say today that we have ended that scheme.
Edward Argar (Melton and Syston) (Con)
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for her previous answers on substantive questions about accommodation for prisoners released early. Further to that, have the Government contracted any specific hotels for potential use by early release prisoners?
Shabana Mahmood
I have authorised probation directors in areas to make appropriate provision, if that proves to be needed—at this point, it is not definite that it will be required—to ensure that there is no gap in provision for offenders being released under the SDS40 scheme.
Edward Argar
I think the Secretary of State said that none has been contracted at this time. If they are at any point, further to the point made by the hon. Member for Reading West and Mid Berkshire (Olivia Bailey), will she be open and transparent with the House, local authorities and the public about how many, at what point and, in broad terms, where they will be located?
Mr Lee Dillon (Newbury) (LD)
Every 30 seconds, a domestic abuse-related call is made to the police. It is positive to see that the number of domestic abuse cases referred from the police to the CPS has increased, but those numbers are still well below the level seen over the past five years. Will the Secretary of State address the delays in domestic abuse referrals from the police to the CPS and acknowledge the unique risks that they pose?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Alex Davies-Jones)
As I have stated, this Government were elected with a landmark mission to halve violence against women and girls within a decade. To do so, we must improve the justice system’s response to these crimes, including domestic abuse. We must relentlessly target the most prolific and harmful perpetrators, better support victims and survivors, and ensure timely and effective justice. We will put domestic abuse experts in 999 control rooms and strengthen the use of protection orders, and we will strengthen the tools available to manage domestic abuse offenders.
Joe Powell (Kensington and Bayswater) (Lab)
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Heidi Alexander)
As I said to the hon. Member for Wimbledon (Mr Kohler), we will do everything we can to ensure swift justice for the victims of Grenfell. We plan for the Crown court to sit for at least 105,000 days this financial year, and we will do more to increase the speed with which cases are heard in the Crown court.
Bradley Thomas (Bromsgrove) (Con)
Shabana Mahmood
I have committed to the review, because that is the appropriate way, and I will not make early promises that might not be kept. I have committed to both transparency and a review. We will publish all the data on a quarterly basis and I will return to the House with the results of the review and the approach that we will take at that point.
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
Alex Davies-Jones
The victims code sets out the services and support that victims of crime are entitled to receive from the criminal justice system in England and Wales. That includes the right to access support, which applies regardless of whether they decide to report the crime to the police. I would be delighted to meet my hon. Friend to discuss this further.
Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Sir Nicholas Dakin)
The hon. Member is right that drugs in prison is a big issue that the Government are working hard to tackle. I would be very happy to write to her with further details of what we are doing.
Jess Asato (Lowestoft) (Lab)
Alex Davies-Jones
First, let me congratulate my hon. Friend on succeeding me as chair of the all-party parliamentary group on perpetrators of domestic abuse. It is a vital APPG and I know that she will do sterling working as its chair.
To confirm, we have excluded from SDS40 certain offences that are frequently connected to domestic abuse, such as stalking and controlling or coercive behaviour. The victim contact scheme is available to all victims of a sexual, violent or terrorist offence where the offender is sentenced to 12 months or more in custody. We are working with the sector and others to consider how to improve communication with victims about an offender following a conviction.
Steff Aquarone (North Norfolk) (LD)
Heidi Alexander
As I have said, the Crown court will sit for more than 105,000 days this financial year—an increase of 28% on the year before the pandemic. That means that there is more capacity in the Crown court this year than in six of the past seven years. We have inherited a criminal justice system on life support as a result of the previous Government, and we have a broken economy. Everyone can see the state of the public finances, and justice is not immune from that.
Henry Tufnell (Mid and South Pembrokeshire) (Lab)
In Pembrokeshire we have no local solicitors’ firms offering pro bono work, and the nearest free legal advice centre is in Swansea. Many of my constituents are therefore unable to access to justice, which is particularly distressing in the area of family law and care proceedings. What steps is the Minister taking to tackle the issue of legal deserts in places such as Pembrokeshire and west Wales?
Heidi Alexander
Access to justice is integral to a fair society, including for our rural communities. In our courts and tribunals, modernised services and a more effective use of technology can improve people’s access to the justice system, but I recognise that there is more to do and I am happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss that.
Monica Harding (Esher and Walton) (LD)
Shabana Mahmood
We have taken every measure available to us and pulled every lever we could to ensure that offences connected to domestic abuse are excluded and that the probation service has had time to prepare. We will work with it in the coming weeks and months to ensure that release plans are in place and victims are notified in the usual way.
Ben Goldsborough (South Norfolk) (Lab)
A widow was prosecuted under the single justice procedure after her husband had passed away and the car tax expired. She was convicted over just £3.34, and the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency sent the letter to the wrong address. Will the Minister meet me to discuss how we can reform the single justice procedure to make it more accountable and ensure that there is better oversight of the process?
Heidi Alexander
I am very happy to meet my hon. Friend. I am also very keen that we keep under review what more can be done to support vulnerable defendants going through the single justice procedure, and to improve oversight and regulation of the organisations using that procedure.
Siân Berry (Brighton Pavilion) (Green)
Sir Nicholas Dakin
The hon. Member is right that this is a big issue. The Prison and Probation Service is working hard to ensure that appropriate accommodation is available, and working hard with partners across the country in different regions. I am very happy to meet the hon. Member to talk about the issue further.
Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)
Amazing charities such as Survive in York depend for their survival on the rape and sexual abuse support fund. However, without certainty over the amount, and if and when the funding will come, it is hard to leverage funding from other sources, such as the national lottery. When will the funding be announced, and will the Minister meet me to discuss this vital funding as demand rises?
Alex Davies-Jones
I thank my hon. Friend for that question. I recognise the vital work that Survive in York does to support victims and survivors in her area. I fully appreciate the importance of notifying police and crime commissioners and providers about future funding as early as possible to effectively commission, plan and deliver those services. As I have indicated, it would be wrong of me to pre-empt the current spending review. We know that current providers are concerned about the cliff edge in March 2025. I fully appreciate that and I would be delighted to meet her to discuss that further.
Manuela Perteghella (Stratford-on-Avon) (LD)
Will the Secretary of State ensure that measures are put in place in the criminal justice system to support survivors of violence against women and girls, including mandatory training for prosecutors on understanding the impact of trauma on survivors and the release of court transcripts for free for victims of rape?
Heidi Alexander
The hon. Lady may know that we currently offer free transcripts of judges’ sentencing remarks to families of victims of fatal road offences, murder and manslaughter. In May, we extended free transcripts of sentencing remarks to victims of rape and serious sexual offences, in a year-long pilot. We will continue to look at how we can lower the costs of obtaining a court transcript.
Harpreet Uppal (Huddersfield) (Lab)
Former clients of the law firm SSB Law were unexpectedly pursued for adverse legal costs following the installation of defective cavity wall insulation. I understand that the Solicitors Regulatory Authority has opened an investigation. Will the Secretary of State review the situation urgently, including establishing a cross-Government working group on the matter?
Heidi Alexander
I am aware from correspondence that I have received, as the Member of Parliament for Swindon South, that there are significant concerns about the collapse of law firms such as SSB Solicitors, Axiom Law and McClure. As my hon. Friend said, the Solicitors Regulation Authority is looking at this, as is the Legal Services Board, and I shall be happy to speak to her further to provide an update.
Sir David Davis (Goole and Pocklington) (Con)
The Justice Secretary will be aware that the Criminal Cases Review Commission took 17 years to overturn the conviction of Andrew Malkinson, an innocent man, even though DNA evidence exonerating him was available from the fourth year; and his is not the only such case. Has the Minister any intention of addressing the resources, regulation and management of the CCRC to ensure that innocent people are not left incarcerated for many years?
Heidi Alexander
What happened to Mr Malkinson is appalling, both for him and for the victim of the crime. It is vital that lessons are learned. As the right hon. Gentleman will know, following the publication of the Henley review of the CCRC’s handling of Mr Malkinson’s case, the Lord Chancellor’s view is that the current chair is unfit to fulfil her duties. As for resources, the amount that the CCRC has received in recent years has risen, and we will continue to keep that under review.
Will Stone (Swindon North) (Lab)
As the Minister will know, one of the factors that can contribute to backlogs in courts is the existence of basic maintenance problems with the buildings, which prevents cases from being heard. In Swindon this year, we had a serious fire which resulted in one of the courtrooms being closed and cases being transferred elsewhere. What investment is being made in courts in places such as Swindon to ensure that justice can be delivered swiftly?
Heidi Alexander
I am very pleased to be responding to a fellow Swindon Member, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving me the chance to mention our home town during my first ministerial outing. I should add that I am also grateful to local judiciary court staff and justice stakeholders for their work in maintaining justice during that incident in Swindon. As the Lord Chancellor said earlier, ensuring that buildings are maintained effectively is critical to the delivery of justice.
Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Stamford) (Con)
My constituent was brave enough to report her husband for the abuse that he put her through. He has just been released from prison on two conditions: he would be tagged and he was not allowed to go into her village. He has not been tagged because the Probation Service says that it does not have enough tags and there is a technical fault, and he entered her village on his first day out of prison, staying overnight. He was on her street, and his family knocked on her door. Will the Secretary of State please respond to my letter about my constituent, who feels extremely vulnerable? Will she also confirm that there are enough tags, and that in cases such as this there will be not just a verbal warning—which is all that her husband received for his actions—but remedial repercussions?
Shabana Mahmood
I am not aware of the correspondence to which the hon. Lady has referred, but I will chase it up and ensure that she receives a comprehensive response.
Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith and Chiswick) (Lab)
The coronial system is a mess, with substantial backlogs, a lack of representation for bereaved families, and erratic use of prevention of future deaths reports. Will the Secretary of State consider reforms to deal with these problems? If she needs ideas, there is a very good report from the Justice Committee.
Alex Davies-Jones
I concur: there is an excellent report from the Committee, to which the Government will respond in due course. I am well aware of some of the issues with the coroners and reporting deaths for bereaved families and I should be delighted to discuss them further with my hon. Friend.
Helen Whately (Faversham and Mid Kent) (Con)
Catapults are not classed as offensive weapons, but they are being used increasingly in my constituency to injure and kill livestock and pets. Will the Minister responsible for such matters agree to meet me to discuss how we can deter these people and stop their use of catapults to kill?
Shabana Mahmood
I suspect that that may be a matter for my colleagues in the Home Office, but I will happily liaise with the relevant Minister and ensure that the hon. Lady receives a response.
Ukraine
(3 months, 3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I will make a statement on Ukraine, but may I first reflect on last week’s dreadful news of the death of Royal Naval pilot Lieutenant Rhodri Leyshon? On behalf of this House, I pay tribute to him. He was a consummate professional to his colleagues and was dearly loved by his family. He will be sorely missed by so many, and the thoughts of this House are with them today.
It has now been 930 days since Putin launched his full-scale illegal invasion of Ukraine—930 days in which Ukrainian forces have fought heroically while communities have endured relentless attacks. Children have been stolen to Russia, and families have seen their homes destroyed. Yet, throughout everything, Ukraine has stood tall in the face of Russian aggression. Since day one, when I was the shadow Defence Secretary and sat in the place now occupied by the hon. Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge), this House, and our country, has been united for Ukraine. In opposition, Labour backed every package of military aid, every sanction on Russia and every scheme to support civilians, such as Homes for Ukraine. I know the Opposition will continue to work with the Government in the same way, because this House stands united for Ukraine.
I have been proud of UK leadership on Ukraine, and I am determined that it will continue. I am also determined to work across this House, so I will offer Opposition leaders regular intelligence assessments on the conflict. I will offer MPs of all parties regular Ministry of Defence and Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office briefings, the second of which took place in the MOD this morning. More than 100 colleagues from both sides of the House have attended the briefings, and the House will receive regular updates on the conflict from me.
Ukraine is a first-order priority for me as Defence Secretary, and for this Government. That is why, on the second day in the job, I flew to Odesa and joined President Zelensky and his team for the afternoon. I told him that the Ukrainians’ courage inspires the world. I also told him that this new Government will step up support for Ukraine at this critical moment. In our first week, we announced a new package of UK military support, including ammunition, missiles and artillery guns; a new commitment to speed up the deliveries pledged by the previous Government; and a promise to spend £3 billion on military support for Ukraine this year, next year and every year for as long as it takes.
In the weeks since, we have stepped up support even further. We have signed a new £3.5 billion defence industrial support treaty, hit the £1 billion milestone for the International Fund for Ukraine, advanced the UK-led maritime and drone capability coalitions, and agreed a new £300 million contract for artillery shells. At the Ukraine Defence Contact Group meeting in Ramstein on Friday last week, I announced a new £160 million production contract for air defence missiles. I also announced that the UK’s Operation Interflex, which has trained 45,000 Ukrainian troops since 2022, will extend beyond this year and throughout 2025. Our support is both short term and long term, entailing immediate provision and long-term production. We are training troops today and developing Ukrainian forces for the future. This approach gives the Ukrainians the confidence to plan, and it sends a signal to Putin that the UK and our allies will stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes.
There have been important battlefield developments during the past month. In the first week of August, Ukrainian forces launched a remarkable offensive across Russia’s border and into the Kursk region. This exposed the vulnerabilities of Putin’s frontline forces, and it demonstrates Ukraine’s ability to achieve surprise strategic attacks. It also helps to better defend Ukraine and its northern centres by pushing back against sites from which Russia can launch deadly attacks. Around 900 sq km of territory is now held by Ukrainian forces in the Kursk region, and this has put Putin under pressure. After initial disarray, Russian forces are now deploying to the area in greater numbers.
But eastern Ukraine continues to be Russia’s main focus, with tactical advances bringing Pokrovsk within approximately 8 km of the frontline. With Russia continuing to rely on infantry-led assaults, its casualties remain high and rising. Daily casualties have doubled from this time last year, with Russia averaging more than 1,100 a day killed or wounded in July and August alone. Meanwhile, recent Russian air bombardments have been some of the most intense since the start of the war. President Zelensky stated on Friday in Ramstein that 4,000 missiles and drones were fired at Ukraine in the last month, targeting critical national infrastructure and attacking civilian centres, including Poltava and Lviv in the last week. Since 2022, the impact of this has been that Russia has destroyed or captured more than 50% of Ukraine’s power generation capacity, forcing Ukraine to implement power outages with winter approaching.
Meanwhile at sea, Ukraine has scored some significant successes, including driving Russia’s fleet out of the western Black sea to reopen export trading routes and destroying or damaging 26 Russian naval vessels operating in the Black sea, including a Russian Kilo class submarine just last month. Despite these notable achievements, Russian pressure across the whole of the frontline will continue in the months ahead. Russian industry remains on a war footing, Russian artillery is outfiring Ukraine by at least three to one, and Russia is also conscripting or recruiting 400,000 additional soldiers this year. For the coming weeks, two things are clear: Ukrainians need to strengthen their frontline in the east and look to hold the territory in Kursk. The longer they hold Kursk, the weaker Putin becomes. The longer they hold Kursk, the better defended Ukraine will be.
This was discussed at the US-led Ukraine Defence Contact Group that I attended last Friday with other Defence Ministers and President Zelensky. This was where military support and unity for Ukraine were strengthened among 50 allied nations, and where the US Defence Secretary Lloyd Austin served an important reminder to everyone:
“If Ukraine is not free, the world is not safe.”
This is why the defence of the UK starts in Ukraine. If President Putin prevails in Ukraine, he will not stop at Ukraine. If big nations redraw international boundaries by force, the sovereignty and security of all nations is undermined. That is why UK support, alongside allies, is so important: military, economic, industrial and diplomatic support.
I also want this House to know that we are seeing clear growing signs of Russian aggression beyond Ukraine. NATO allies are reporting Russian drones violating their airspace. The heads of the UK and US security services have confirmed that Russian intelligence is conducting a “reckless campaign of sabotage” across Europe, and last week the National Cyber Security Centre revealed that Russia’s specialist GRU unit is conducting offensive cyber operations directed at Governments and civilian infrastructure. Putin is targeting our security. He is targeting our way of life.
We face a decade of growing Russian aggression, but this is a Government who will protect our people and our country. We will actively deter and defend against Russian threats, working in partnership with allies. That is why, as a new Government, our defence policy will now be NATO first. As we approach 1,000 days of war, this conflict is at a critical moment. That is why the UK is stepping up support. Because this is not just Ukraine’s struggle; it is our struggle too. Ukraine is fighting to regain its sovereign territory, but it is also fighting to reinforce peace, democracy and security in the rest of Europe.
James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for early sight of his statement, and for the briefings he has provided to me and all parliamentary colleagues. I associate myself and my party with the condolences he expressed regarding the tragic death of Lieutenant Leyshon.
As we have confirmed previously, I reiterate without reservation that, as Labour did when in opposition, we will continue to do everything possible to support the Government over Ukraine. We remain steadfast in our total condemnation of both Putin’s illegal invasion of Ukraine and his conduct of the war, during which he has shown no regard for human life, even, it would appear, that of his own service personnel, with losses now at terrible levels on all sides. Indeed—this was one of the Secretary of State’s most striking points on the operational situation—it is an extraordinary testament to the brutal disposition of the Putin regime that their strategy continues to rely on the mass sacrifice of infantry personnel.
That said, the Secretary of State is surely right to remind us that, despite the extraordinary naval success Ukraine has enjoyed in the Black sea and the surprise incursion into Kursk that has thrown Putin’s regime into confusion, Russia remains a formidable foe and nothing at all can be taken for granted. On the contrary, it is clear that the UK must continue to do all it can to support Ukraine’s Government, people and armed forces.
On the Conservative Benches, we are proud of the role our Government played in showing real leadership in respect of Ukraine. If Ukraine had fallen early, the world would have been in a precipice situation akin to the late 1930s, but we made a huge difference to avoiding that outcome by being the first nation to train Ukrainian troops, the first to provide main battle tanks and, in particular, the first to provide long-range weapons. In August, President Zelensky commented that Britain’s support for Ukraine has slowed down recently. What assessment has the Secretary of State made of those comments?
On these Benches, we recognise that a key part of our leadership has been bringing other allies on board, which must continue in key operational and logistical decision making. Nevertheless, we have also shown leadership as a sovereign nation that believes wholeheartedly in Ukraine’s fight for freedom. As such, I confirm that we would have no hesitation in supporting the Government in continuing that leadership were they to confirm that the Ukrainian Government have maximum freedom of operation with regard to all the munitions we have supplied, including long-range missiles.
On the provision of additional munitions and the latest news shared by the Secretary of State, I welcome the announcement of £160 million for air defence missiles to be produced, of course, in Belfast. That underlines the intention we had in government, when the latest round of support commenced, to ensure a maximum degree of benefit for the UK defence sector in our support for Ukraine. Will the Secretary of State confirm that that remains a top priority and that, as we supply Ukraine with more and more drones across defence, he will ensure that we rapidly learn the lessons of their deployment so that we can build the ecosystem for our own sovereign uncrewed sector?
We agree that supplying Ukraine with arms has been the right thing to do but—and the public feel this very strongly—that must be accompanied by the replenishment of our own stockpiles and platform inventory. A top priority of our funded, timetabled commitment to 2.5% was an additional £10 billion to replenish our munitions. Is the Secretary of State still committed to that extra £10 billion for munitions? Can he confirm that the delay in setting out a clear timetable to 2.5% will not lead to the deferment of any major munitions orders, either this financial year or next?
The Secretary of State spoke of Russian artillery outfiring Ukraine by 3:1, and he knows the crucial importance of industrial output. That being so, does he recognise that we must urgently fire up production across our own defence sector by committing to 2.5% as soon as possible?
Finally, one lesson from Ukraine is the vital importance of maintaining air superiority in battle. In relation to our future combat air capability, I asked the Secretary of State a set of written questions on 29 July on the sixth-generation global combat air programme spending, and he has to date answered only the questions on historical spend, not those on the current financial year. Will he therefore confirm whether his Department will be deferring any spending on GCAP planned for the current financial year?
John Healey
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his support, his tone and his commitment to continuing to back further military aid to Ukraine, including the £160 million contract for lightweight multi-role missiles that I announced last week. He talked about the “mass sacrifice” of Russian personnel, and he is right. President Putin is a leader who shows contempt for the lives of his own soldiers.
On UK leadership, I have set out to the House my determination to maintain that leadership in the support for Ukraine, and demonstrated how we stepped that up in the first week, in the weeks that followed and last week at Ramstein. In terms of the lessons for drones, their deployment and our work with Ukraine, we are learning those lessons. We need to speed that up. Given the hon. Gentleman’s previous job, he will be well aware of the implications for the way in which we procure and contract for capabilities, both for export and for our stockpiles. On stockpiles, we have—as he will also know—so far spent £1 billion in the UK on replenishment. We have plans to build that, because we need to boost not just production, but the productive capacity of UK industry, so that we are capable of demonstrating that it can be scaled up in the face of future threats in a way that is not apparent at present.
The hon. Gentleman asks about long-range missiles. I have to say that only Putin benefits from an open debate about those sensitive issues, and I will not comment on operational discussions. There has been no change in the UK’s position. We continue to provide military aid to Ukraine, as I have set out, to support its clear right to self-defence and in line with the operation of international humanitarian law.
On the question of 2.5%, we will increase defence spending to 2.5% of GDP. The last time the UK spent 2.5% of GDP on defence was in 2010, when I last stood at this Dispatch Box as part of the previous Labour Government. In 2010, the Conservatives cut defence spending: they never matched 2.5% in any of their 14 years in office. My priority will always be to ensure that this country is well defended. In the face of growing threats, we will do more to make Britain secure at home and strong abroad.
Derek Twigg (Widnes and Halewood) (Lab)
I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement and the 100% commitment to supporting Ukraine, as we have seen previously. I welcome his statement about the investment in LMM defence. Can he say a bit more about the scope of that?
John Healey
I have said that Ukraine is my first-order priority, and I was in Odessa on my second day in the job. I have now had the privilege of meeting President Zelensky four times while in post, and I have met his Defence Minister six times. Like the previous Government, we consistently try to respond to the needs that Ukraine says it has for systems and ammunition. At the moment, above all, it needs new supplies of ammunition and stronger air defence systems capable of taking down Russian missiles and drones at different distances. While the US made a commitment at Ramstein last week to an extra $250 million in air defence systems, we made a commitment of an extra £160 million through a short-range modern air defence system—650 LMMs, with production under way—the first of which will be delivered to Ukraine before the end of the year. We are stepping up the support that we pledged for Ukraine and speeding up the support that we deliver to Ukraine.
Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)
On behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I wish to add to the tributes that others have paid to Lieutenant Rhodri Leyshon. He served with the Commando Helicopter Force in 846 Naval Air Squadron at Yeovilton. The Royal Navy said that Rhodri was one of their
“most trusted and highly capable aircraft captains and instructors”.
Our thoughts are with his family.
I am reminded of the saying “train hard, fight easy”. It is attributed to the 18th-century Russian commander Field Marshal Suvorov, but the Russians are not practising that today, sending to the front Russians who have had as little as two weeks’ training. By contrast, the training that has been provided under Operation Interflex has enabled Ukrainian troops to hold ground and exploit Russian weaknesses. The Liberal Democrats welcome the announcement last week at the Ukraine Defence Contact Group that Operation Interflex will continue until the end of 2025. Indeed, we have welcomed announcements on Ukraine from the current Government and the previous Government, and we would not want to see any party political capital sought from the solid British support for Ukraine.
We have seen some failures by the British state in recent years to plan for contingencies, whether post-invasion planning for Iraq or for a non-flu pandemic. We have discovered that sometimes in the British state there is a little bit of “hope for the best”.
On support for Ukraine by the United States, what contingency planning is being undertaken for an uplift in our support for Ukraine—and by other states in the Ukraine Defence Contact Group—in the event that a gap opens up with a US Administration under Trump and Vance?
John Healey
I am sure that Lieutenant Leyshon’s family will appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s comments.
The outcome of the US presidential election will be determined by the American people. This country has a deep relationship with the US: it is our most important security ally, and we are its most important intelligence ally. The relationship goes back decades and has survived the ups and downs of the political cycles on both sides of the Atlantic. We are determined that it will do so again, whatever the result of the election.
On the question of training, I cannot match the hon. Gentleman in citing 18th-century military figures, but I can say that the mismatch between the level of training that we and allies are trying to provide to Ukrainian troops is part of the attempt to counter the outmatch in numbers on the Russian side. I can confirm to the House that that includes not just the 45,000 Ukrainian troops trained so far under Operation Interflex since Putin’s invasion, but the 93 F-16 pilots trained in English and technical matters as well as flying, and almost 1,000 Ukrainian marines trained by the UK, working with allies. That is why I was able to make the announcement last week at Ramstein that this important UK training effort, linked into the new NATO arrangements, will be part of the way that we equip Ukraine forces for the future to be better prepared and trained than their Russian adversaries.
Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)
Let us be under no illusion: in the face of Russian aggression and invasion, the defence of the UK starts in Ukraine. My right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary was right to focus not only on the immediate challenges facing Ukraine but on the longer-term imperatives. Does he agree that the UK-Ukraine friendship is not just for the short term or for as long as it takes, but must endure in the years and decades to come?
John Healey
I do indeed. A lot of attention is given to military aid to support Ukraine’s short-term needs—its immediate battlefield requirements—but in the longer term we need to reinforce Ukraine’s capacity to produce for itself. That is why an important element of the steps we have taken to step up support for Ukraine, since the election just two months ago, has been to sign a defence export treaty, which I was privileged to sign with Defence Minister Umerov in No. 10 Downing Street. It provides some £3.5 billion-worth of export credit guarantees that will help us do more to get the equipment Ukraine needs manufactured and exported, and into Ukrainian hands for its fight against Putin’s invasion.
Sir Gavin Williamson (Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge) (Con)
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his statement. People in Ukraine are facing great challenges, and we can see how much resource Russia is throwing at the situation. Most colleagues on the Government Benches feel it is time for Storm Shadow to be allowed to be used with freedom by the Ukrainian people. Will the right hon. Gentleman set out the legal restrictions that are stopping that from happening? Conflicting briefings have been coming out of Government.
John Healey
That is not a matter I am prepared to discuss openly, as such a debate would benefit Putin. The principle upon which this country has given, and will continue to give, weapons to Ukraine is that those weapons support Ukraine’s defence and its right to self-defence as a sovereign nation. To do so, across the board, does not preclude Ukraine from striking targets in Russia, if that is part of that determination and strategy for self-defence and provided it is within the bounds of international humanitarian law.
Blair McDougall (East Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Without wishing for one second to diminish the threat of Putin’s Russia or the sacrifices that Ukrainians continue to make, I note that Moscow’s airport was closed by Ukrainian drone attacks this morning, that the Russian central bank will raise interest rates to 18% on Friday, and that half a million Russian troops have been killed. All of that has been inflicted by a country that is a third of the size of Russia. Does the Secretary of State share my frustration that so many people in the west seem to accept the misinformation war—Putin’s version of events that this war is going swimmingly for him—when any rational assessment of the events of the last two and a half years shows that they have been an absolute catastrophe for Russia?
John Healey
My hon. Friend is right. Part of the battle that Putin is waging is with his own people—to control their freedoms, including taking steps to assassinate political opponents, and their right to freedom of information. One thing that has put President Putin under pressure is that Ukraine has taken 900 sq km of territory in the Kursk region to defend its own cities and centres in the north. That has brought home to President Putin and the Russian people the consequences of his aggression, and shown that this is not a special operation, simply confined to Ukraine. Ukraine has the right to self-defence. In doing so, Ukraine is trying to defend itself better by striking targets in Russia from where the Russians are launching the deadly attacks from which Ukrainian civilians, cities and power systems have suffered for too long.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
What assessment has the Defence Secretary made of Operation Renovator and how does he plan to change it?
John Healey
The right hon. Gentleman asks a question with a good deal more information than the rest of the House. I will write to him with the detail he seeks rather than trying to give a superficial answer from the Dispatch Box.
Dan Carden (Liverpool Walton) (Lab)
I welcome the Defence Secretary’s statement, especially what he said about the deepening military and industrial strategy between the United Kingdom and Ukraine. There is clearly a growing alliance building between Russia and Iran, united in undermining democracy and risking further proxy wars. Will the Defence Secretary give his assessment on how the UK Government seek to influence Iran?
John Healey
My hon. Friend follows these matters closely and speaks with authority in the House on these things. We have been warning—in fact, the previous Government were warning too—about the deepening security alliance between Iran and Russia. Part of the declaration, made alongside international partners, at the NATO summit in Washington warned Iran that any transfer not just of drone technology, but of ballistic missile technology to Russia would be regarded as a significant escalation. The House can take a broader lesson from my hon. Friend’s point: Iran’s destabilisation is not a malign influence that is simply felt throughout parts of the middle east, but has wider repercussions, which is why Iran is one of the most serious threats to this country in the future.
Dave Doogan (Angus and Perthshire Glens) (SNP)
The Secretary of State can look forward to the same support for Ukraine’s defences from the SNP that the previous Government enjoyed. He mentioned increased air defences coming from the UK and the United States that will be in Ukraine before the end of the year. Russia will not wait until the end of the year before attacking civilian infrastructure, particularly energy infrastructure, so will the Secretary of State advise of any steps that have been taken to accelerate that increased air defence to the benefit of the people of Ukraine?
John Healey
I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s continuing commitment and support, given on behalf of his party, to stand with Ukraine in this House. For some months, the Ukrainians have been saying they want delivery of the pledges of military aid to help with their fight against the illegal full-scale invasion; they want what has been promised to be in their hands. That is why when I first met President Zelensky, on my second day as Secretary of State for Defence, I made a point to not just say to him, “Right, this Government are willing to step up the support we are offering,” but to tell him that we recognise that imperative and will speed up the support we offer. We will speed up the delivery of the big package of aid announced by the previous Government in April, and we will try to say to President Zelensky, “Where we pledge our support, we will give you a guarantee about the delivery times by which it will be in your hands, to strengthen your fight for your sovereignty and against this illegal invasion.”
Johanna Baxter (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
I strongly welcome the confirmation of the extension of Operation Interflex over this year and next. Will the Secretary of State join me in paying tribute to the hard work and professionalism of the UK troops involved in the operation, and the bravery of all the Ukrainian troops who are serving to protect their home?
John Healey
My hon. Friend reminds the House of a very important point. Numbers are one thing—we can say that the UK has led the Operation Interflex nations to train 45,000 Ukrainian troops—but more importantly the expertise of British and other allied soldiers has helped to provide the Ukrainian soldiers who are stepping forward to help defend their country with combat medical skills, battlefield training and survival techniques. I had the privilege to join the then Leader of the Opposition on Salisbury plain to witness some of the training and, later, to talk to Ukrainian troops who had finished their training at Brize Norton as they were poised to fly back to Ukraine. They were men very much like any in this House—lorry drivers, accountants and public relations executives—who are now, alongside their civilian colleagues, fighting for the future of their country and the right to decide, as a sovereign nation, its future in the world. I pay tribute to their bravery and to the skill of our armed forces in helping to train them for that task.
Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)
We have had a quote from Suvorov, and Napoleon famously said that
“the moral is to the physical as three is to one.”
After two and a half years of a barbaric Russian invasion, we cannot expect the Ukrainians to keep resisting with one hand tied behind their back. That means that, while the Russians attack power stations with long-range missiles at will with winter coming, and while they use glide bombs, which are brutally effective as tactical weapons on the frontline, we have to allow the Ukrainians full freedom of action to retaliate, not just as a military necessity, but to maintain their own morale. They must be bolstered to keep going. We could help them, and it is about time that we did that one thing.
John Healey
The right hon. Gentleman makes his very strong points in his customary way. This is about not retaliation, but self-defence, and he is quite right to say that the impact of the “moral” often outweighs the impact of the physical. When I updated the House on the physical—the 900 sq km of the Kursk region that is now in Ukrainian hands—the “moral”, or morale, impact on Ukrainian troops and Ukrainian citizens has been huge, so just as it is putting pressure on Putin, it is also lifting the spirits of Ukraine after nearly 1,000 days of a bloody battle against Putin’s invasion.
Alan Gemmell (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)
The Secretary of State spent the last Sunday of the election campaign in Prestwick, near our town’s world war two Polish war memorial. Within days, he was in Odesa and has stepped up and sped up the support that the UK is delivering. Does he agree that we have started as we mean to go on and that this Government will stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes?
John Healey
Yes, I do. It is a real pleasure to see my hon. Friend in his place. He brings expertise from a very wide field of foreign-policy affairs. I know that he will make a big contribution to this House, and if I made a small contribution to his election campaign, then I am doubly pleased to see him.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
The Secretary of State was a consistent supporter of Ukraine in opposition, so it is no surprise to hear that positive statement from him today. When he goes into battle with the Chancellor of the Exchequer for a good defence budget, will he remind her that, in the 1980s and the cold war, we regularly spent 4.5% to 5.1% of GDP on defence? Will he also assure the House that if America elects a President who does not wish to support Ukraine, the support for Ukraine by the remaining European members of NATO will intensify, not diminish?
John Healey
When, as a Government, we declare that we are ready, we show that by stepping up support for Ukraine. When we say that we will stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes for it to prevail, we mean it. Whatever the decisions of other countries may or may not be, I do not expect—whatever the result of the US elections—for the US to walk away from Ukraine. I said in my statement that if big countries with authoritarian rulers can redraw international boundaries by force, the sovereignty and security of all nations are left weakened.
On the question of defence spending, we are a Government who will not be having battles, as the right hon. Member put it. But I will go into the discussions that I will inevitably have with the Chancellor with a copy of our Labour manifesto, which, at the election, said that we are a Government who will spend 2.5% of GDP on defence. We will increase spending on defence, which is entirely the opposite of what happened when we had the change of Government in 2010. That was a Government who cut defence spending over those first five years by nearly 20%.
Tim Roca (Macclesfield) (Lab)
May I thank the Secretary of State for his statement, but also the Ministers who have provided cross-party briefings to colleagues? It really is appreciated. President Zelensky has called on partners to ensure that aid packages that are announced are delivered to Ukrainians as quickly as possible. Will the Secretary of State set out the actions that the Government are taking to ensure that aid to Ukraine is sped up?
John Healey
My hon. Friend is quite right: stepping up the pledges of aid is one thing, but speeding up the deliveries is another. That is why, on that second day in Odesa, I made an undertaking to the Defence Minister and President Zelensky that this was a Government who would do both. I am able to update the Defence Minister in Ukraine of progress on each of the elements of the package that we have pledged.
Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his statement. Even though he has announced nothing new today, I very much welcome that he is keeping this matter at the top of his and the nation’s agenda. Although he may be able to say little about this, will he forgive those of us who can speak for continuing to press for the west to untie the hands of our Ukrainian allies, so that they can strike back at those who are striking at them illegally and without justification? We know that that probably does not apply to this Government, but will he confirm that there are discussions with our allies about this matter? May I wish him every success in helping us to deliver the freedom and security of the world by breaking the stalemate in Ukraine that will overwhelm the west if we allow it to continue?
John Healey
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments and for his welcome to me. I note the points that he makes. On the point about my not announcing anything new, I just say to him that I did so on Friday last week. This is my first opportunity to update the House on the announcements of extra aid not just last week, but in the weeks over the summer recess—and, indeed, the package in our first week in office. This is the fourth sitting week since the election, and I hope that he will be reassured by my personal undertaking to ensure that I update the House on developments in Ukraine on a regular basis.
Kevin Bonavia (Stevenage) (Lab)
I, too, welcome the Secretary of State’s statement and his wholehearted commitment of this country to the defence of our ally in its hour of need in the face of Putin’s aggression. I am very pleased that my constituency of Stevenage is where many of the Storm Shadow missiles being shipped to Ukraine are manufactured, but, of course, manufacturing missiles and other armaments takes time. Will the Secretary of State explain what steps he and his Department can take to speed up that process?
John Healey
I will indeed. I am delighted to see my hon. Friend take his place on the Labour Benches as part of a Labour Government speaking up for Stevenage. His constituency is home not just to the production of some of the most important defence equipment, but to their development and the technology that goes into it.
We will build on some of the steps that the hon. Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) first took as Minister for Defence Procurement in the last months of the previous Government. I recognise that, with the nature of warfare changing so rapidly—exemplified by what we see in Ukraine—large platforms, which may take many years to produce, risk rapidly becoming outdated in the technology and systems that they cover. We have to be able to procure, we have to be able to develop as we procure and, once in the field, we have to be able to update on a regular basis. My hon. Friend must take it from that that this is a question not just of better value for money, but of more speed and clearer decision making in everything we do. That will be a hallmark of the way we develop our procurement reforms and our new industrial strategy, driven by the need to reinforce growth in this country as part of the success of this Government.
Iqbal Mohamed (Dewsbury and Batley) (Ind)
I congratulate the Defence Secretary and his Ministers and welcome them to their place. It is right that the UK stands with Ukraine to protect the lives and freedoms of the innocent people and the sovereignty of a free state. In addition to the military support provided, will the Secretary of State update the House on what diplomatic efforts are being made to negotiate an end to the Russian aggression, a full withdrawal from Ukraine and a return to peaceful co-existence as soon as possible?
John Healey
I will just say to the hon. Gentleman that it is the Ukrainians who are fighting, not us. It is the Ukrainians who will make the call about when to stop fighting and when to start talking, not us. Our task is to reinforce the Ukrainians now, to put them in the strongest possible position if and when they make that decision, and then to put them in the strongest possible position if they go into negotiations.
Graeme Downie (Dunfermline and Dollar) (Lab)
One of the key features throughout the statement and the discussion today has been the importance of consensus and co-operation in building a coalition. Will the Secretary of State give an update on what steps he intends to take next to ensure that we are supporting Ukraine with the broadest and best coalition possible?
John Healey
It was my first time at the Ramstein meeting on Friday last week—the 24th such meeting of that coalition, led by the US. Senior representatives of 50 other countries participated, and all pledged both more military support for Ukraine and to reinforce the unity with which we stand with Ukraine. I hope that that is not just reassurance for Ukrainians, but a signal to President Putin that we remain united, we remain resolute and, in the end, he will not prevail.
Sir Alec Shelbrooke (Wetherby and Easingwold) (Con)
I very much welcome the Secretary of State’s statement. He is quite right to outline the threats that Russia now poses to NATO territory. Last week, the NATO Parliamentary Assembly was in Alaska, looking at the missile intercept system, part of which is done through RAF Fylingdales. However, the UK and most of Europe is not protected by the missile intercept system. In relation to the comments he has made on the threat Russia poses, may I ask that, as we move into the strategic defence review, a NATO-led missile intercept system is something that he discusses? It is quite a hole in the defence of Europe at this moment in time.
John Healey
I grew up and went to school near RAF Fylingdales in North Yorkshire. Those big golf balls, when they were up, were a feature of the landscape for many years. I can say to the right hon. Gentleman that the strategic defence review, led externally but with the Department supporting it, has set out propositions that pose some of the questions he is interested in. I can confirm that this defence review will welcome and invite contributions from all parties, including not just those on the Front Bench but those on the Back Benches who are well informed and play roles in the wider defence and security world. I invite him to consider the propositions the review has published and to consider the sort of submission he might make as part of its deliberations; if he can do that, we will certainly welcome him.
Dr Scott Arthur (Edinburgh South West) (Lab)
I am proud of the role that service personnel in my constituency have played in training our Ukrainian brothers and sisters. I thank the Secretary of State for outlining the death toll of Putin’s brutal war; it is absolutely horrendous, and I hope that in time we will see Putin held to account for that and for the wider damage caused by the conflict. Despite the scale of the devastation, for many in the UK this war seems like quite a distant event. However, that could change almost overnight if one of the many nuclear reactors in the region is damaged. What discussions has the Secretary of State had with partners about that particular issue?
John Healey
May I pass on through my hon. Friend our thanks and tribute to any of his constituents who have been involved in the Interflex training programme to date? On the question of pursuing Putin for his war crimes, this is a Government—indeed, this is a country, which is a tribute to the previous Government—that has been willing to help fund the Ukrainian effort to gather the evidence required to prepare potential legal cases that will allow us to bring to justice those leaders in Russia who are responsible. The Ukrainian legal authorities are currently documenting 135,000 reported incidents of alleged war crimes in their country. That is a huge job and they cannot do it without our expertise and our support. Fundamentally, we are a Government that, in opposition, made the commitment to support the setting up of a special tribunal that potentially could try President Putin for the crime of aggression.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank very much the Secretary of State for his statement and his very clear commitment to Ukraine and its people. Everyone in this House supports exactly what he is saying and we thank him for it.
With the breaking news that Ukraine has sent drones to Moscow and central Russia, it is clear that technology is very much at the forefront of this conflict. Will the Secretary of State underline the technical support that the Government have made available to our Ukrainian friends, and say whether we can be of further assistance to bring this war to an end to allow Ukrainian children back into education and Ukrainian families to rebuild their lives?
John Healey
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who prompts me to say something that I did not give enough emphasis to. Never mind the Government support; the technology that he talks about, which is playing such a decisive role in the hands of the Ukrainians, is often developed and provided by the bright people in our and other countries’ industries. We pay tribute to all those in our British industrial and research companies, who in some cases are working with the Government and in some cases are working under contract to the Ukrainians to provide them with what they need to win this fight, to protect their country’s future and to regain their territorial integrity.
Mr Calvin Bailey (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
I thank the Secretary of State for his statement and for the early opportunities he has provided for MPs from all parties to be briefed on the ongoing situation in Ukraine. I welcome the Government’s commitment and his personal commitment to keeping Members of the House updated regularly. May I ask that he ensures that the lessons identified from Ukraine, in particular those of the formations and structures that are allowing the Ukrainian forces to be so effective, are fed into the SDR?
John Healey
Yes, indeed. My hon. Friend served until very close to the general election in a very distinguished and senior capacity in our forces, so I say to him, as I did to the right hon. Member for Wetherby and Easingwold (Sir Alec Shelbrooke), that the defence reviewers will welcome contributions from all sides of this House, particularly when Members who have such deep expertise are willing to make that available. I appreciate his welcome of this early statement and say to him that it will not be the last.
Point of Order
(3 months, 3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Today the House is to debate and vote on a vital issue that affects millions of our senior citizens: the winter fuel payment. If absentee Sinn Féin Members from Northern Ireland—who have received millions of pounds over recent years for not having done their job and not taking their seats—were to take their seats today and vote with many of us, including some Labour Members, the outcome might be different. Has the Speaker’s Office been informed that the seven Sinn Féin Members intend to take their seats in the House today and actually vote to oppose austerity, as opposed to just talking about it?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
I am grateful to the hon. Member for giving me notice of his point of order, but that is not a matter for the Chair.
Royal Assent
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that His Majesty has signified his Royal Assent to the following Act:
Budget Responsibility Act 2024.
Social Security
(3 months, 3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
14:59 - The House divided: - Ayes: 228 / Noes: 348 - Question accordingly negatived.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
Before we start, I inform the House that I will bring in the Secretary of State at the end of the debate. I call the shadow Secretary of State.
1.30 pm
Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con)
I beg to move,
That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, praying that the Social Fund Winter Fuel Payment Regulations 2024 (SI, 2024, No. 869), dated 22 August 2024, a copy of which was laid before this House on 22 August, be annulled.
The Labour party—the Government—said in the general election that it would bring in a new style of politics; politics centred on integrity and transparency. So it was that during the election, we held them to account and pressed them on tax, among other matters. We will find out, with the Budget at the end of next month, whether they were telling the truth—I have my suspicions. But we have already discovered one thing right now. We also pressed them on the winter fuel payment, from which millions of pensioners benefit up and down the country. Why? Because the Conservative party stands four-square behind our elderly. We believe that they should have security and dignity in their later years.
We received cast-iron assurances from the Labour party. In fact, the then shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the right hon. Member for Bristol North West (Darren Jones)—[Hon. Members: “Where is he?”] That is a good question. He said when pressed that the Labour party had “no plans” to do anything in respect of the winter fuel payment. Indeed, Labour candidates up and down the country gleefully pointed to their manifesto as having no mention of doing anything on this particular matter. But look at what has happened in a matter of a few short weeks. What happened to integrity? What happened to transparency? They went out of the window—broken promises already. The special contract that Labour sought to have with the British people based on integrity and decency has been smashed into a million pieces.
What is the impact of these measures? To a degree, we do not know—I will come to that—but we do know that nine out of 10 pensioners will lose the winter fuel payment of up to £300 at a most difficult time of year for millions of them, and a time when the energy price cap is going up by 10%. There is a suggestion from Labour Members that somehow only the wealthy—the millionaires—are affected. Far from it: two thirds of pensioners living below the poverty line will have this benefit removed. [Interruption.] Labour Members do not like hearing it. The 880,000 pensioners who we know are eligible for pension credit but are not yet receiving it will also suffer—[Interruption.] Labour Members chunter from sedentary positions, but although they say that they will have wonderful campaigns to get everybody who is entitled on to pension credit, in reality, even if they did so it would cost the Exchequer £3.8 billion, which is over twice the money that they say they will save. It is an absurd policy that their own plans are actively working against.
The haste with which this has been carried out is simply jaw-dropping. We do not have any impact assessments.
Mike Amesbury (Runcorn and Helsby) (Lab)
Will the shadow Secretary of State give way?
Mel Stride
I will in a moment. We do not know what the impact will be across the income distribution. No Member of this House knows what the impact will be within their own constituency. We do not know what the recommendation of the Social Security Advisory Committee will be. Why? Because it will not be given the information until tomorrow, we are told. And of course, the measure does not form part of what it should: a major fiscal event with the Office for Budget Responsibility scoring it and an economic and fiscal outlook accompanying it.
Mel Stride
I will come to the hon. Gentleman.
In fact, the only authority to comment thus far on these measures is the House of Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which said:
“We are unconvinced by the reasons given for the urgency attached to laying these Regulations and are particularly concerned that this both precludes appropriate scrutiny and creates issues with the practicalities of bringing in the change at short notice.”
That, I think, says it all.
Mel Stride
I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, who has been very patient.
Mike Amesbury
I thank the shadow Secretary of State for finally giving way. Will he clarify which Conservative leadership contender has called for the means-testing of the winter fuel allowance?
Mel Stride
I am left feeling that that intervention was barely worth the wait.
The fact that we even have a debate today is near miraculous given the resistance from the Labour party—we have it thanks to the scrutiny that the Conservative party is providing to the Government. We know that petitions have been railing against the measures: 100,000 people have signed the Silver Voices petition, a third of a million the 38 Degrees petition, and over half a million the Age UK petition. They are calling on the Government to think again. The press, particularly the Express newspaper, is doing a sterling job in bringing these matters to our attention. Even the trade union movement, including Unite, is pointing a finger at the Government and saying that they are picking the pockets of pensioners.
Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)
There is a sense of disappointment. Yesterday, the Health Secretary was dragged in here because a multimillion-pound-making consultant in the health industry is wandering corridors with access to papers, and today pensioners are being betrayed. Does my right hon. Friend agree that when people voted Labour, they thought that they were getting change and transparency? They were promised higher standards; they are getting the opposite.
Mel Stride
I thank my right hon. Friend for his appropriate intervention. He is right, of course. The only surprising thing is how remarkably quickly this has all fallen apart.
The Government will take responsibility for what has happened. They will blame us, with this fictitious black hole. The Leader of the House has suggested—I invite Labour Members to support her in this assertion—that the measure is necessary in order to avoid a “run on the pound.” It is just as well that Labour is not in charge of the economy, or we might end up in a real mess.
Deirdre Costigan (Ealing Southall) (Lab)
Does the shadow Secretary of State agree that if a local council had run its finances into the ground, in the way that his party did to the country’s finances with a £22 billion black hole, he would have called in the commissioners in the morning and instigated swingeing cuts? Can I ask him—[Interruption.] Given that that is the case, and that he now seems to have decided that his party no longer cares about balancing the books, will he apologise—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
Order. I call the shadow Secretary of State.
Mel Stride
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. That slightly lengthy question might be better addressed by way of a rather lengthy letter to the leaders of Birmingham city council.
Of course, all politics is about choices, and what this Government have done is cave in to their trade union paymasters. They have settled way above inflation. Junior doctors—22%. Train drivers—14%. They have stood up for their trade union paymasters on the backs of vulnerable pensioners, and that is not right. If it is not the case that the trade unions are running the Labour party, hands up everybody on the Government Benches who has not received money from the trade unions for their campaigning or their private office. [Hon. Members: “One!”] One person. Therein lies the truth about who is running the Labour party.
Of course, we have seen all of this before. Under the last Labour Government, we had the 75p pension increase, we had Gordon Brown’s stealth tax on private pensions—£118 billion in total—and was it any surprise that we ended up with the fourth highest level of pensioner poverty across the whole of Europe?
Gareth Snell (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab/Co-op)
The right hon. Gentleman talks about choices and pensioners. When his party chose to suspend the triple lock in 2021 and give a below-inflation increase to pensioners, costing them £500, what was his concern then? Why did he say nothing?
Mel Stride
The hon. Gentleman is entirely wrong. We went into the election promising the triple lock plus. Unlike his party, under which millions of pensioners are going to be dragged into income tax spend, many of them for the first time, we were prepared to stand up and say that we would not do that.
Jim Shannon
I commend the right hon. Gentleman and his party for bringing forward this issue, which is massive for my constituents and those across the whole United Kingdom. I say this with respect to the Labour party: this policy does not conform to any Labour party policies that I have seen in the past. Pensioners who have contacted me say that they are concerned because the threshold is too low, because pension credit will take nine weeks to process even if it gets to the 28% who are eligible in Northern Ireland, and because the £400 that the Labour Government have approved will not come until spring next year. Those are three reasons why the motion has to be supported.
Mel Stride
The hon. Gentleman is entirely right, as always, and I completely agree with every word that he has just said.
We are the party of the triple lock, and we were the party of the triple lock plus. We are the party that has raised the state pension by £3,700 since 2010, and we are the party that has seen 200,000 fewer pensioners in absolute poverty since we came to office. That is now going to go into reverse.
I will now, rather more gently and rather more quietly, make an impassioned plea to Government Members: look to your conscience. You know in your hearts that these measures are wrong, that the Labour party has broken its promises, and that these measures will lead to untold hardship for millions of elderly and vulnerable people right up and down the country. You now have an opportunity to join with us and put a stop to it.
Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
Before I start, I want to thank the House for putting its confidence in me to chair the Treasury Committee for the term of this Parliament. I am the servant of this House, and I will question without fear or favour those who appear before us. I look forward to engaging with the new Members I have yet to get to know. I also declare an interest: my husband has been in receipt of the winter fuel allowance, but if the vote changes that today, he will no longer receive it. For his own vanity, I should add that it is the lower limit.
The decision that we are being asked to make today is a difficult one, but sadly it will not be the only difficult decision facing the new Labour Government. Before the general election, I had the privilege of chairing the Public Accounts Committee for nine years. In that role, I saw all of the impacts on public finances—current, past and future. When I heard my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West and Pudsey (Rachel Reeves) talk about the challenges ahead and the dire consequences, I would say, “You think it’s that bad; I know it’s a lot worse.” We have heard of the Chuckle Brothers, but I described us as the Misery Sisters, because when she said it was bad, I said it was going to be worse. That is the reality. The chickens are coming home to roost on the spending of the previous Government.
We saw a number of problems, which I laid out in my last annual report as Chair of the Public Accounts Committee—factually accurate information. The NHS capital budget was raided to pay for day-to-day expenses, but the backlog of capital expenditure in the NHS was £10.2 billion in the year ending 2022.
Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)
As I served with the hon. Lady on the PAC, I warmly congratulate her on her election as Chair of the Treasury Committee. The House has made a very good choice.
Members of the Rayleigh, Rochford and District Association for Voluntary Service, whom I met last Friday, were genuinely worried about this policy. In a nutshell, their argument was that if people on very modest incomes are now frightened to heat their homes, that could lead to illness for many of those people, who will then present themselves to hospital and increase the winter pressures on A&E. By that method, it would be a false economy. The game is not worth the candle. What does the hon. Lady, whom I respect, say to that?
Dame Meg Hillier
I thank the right hon. Gentleman, with whom I had the pleasure of serving on the Public Accounts Committee. That is an example of how the House works closely together; most people would not think that we would agree on many issues, but on that Committee we produced every report in tandem.
The right hon. Gentleman will know that the pressures on the NHS are legion, and that many of the same people who will be suffering this cut to their income—we will come on to some of the measures to ameliorate it—will be the same people queuing and waiting for a hospital appointment. I know too many pensioners who do not get that hip replacement if they cannot afford it, but many are cashing in their savings, when they have them, to pay for a hip replacement so they can have quality of life. That is not the NHS that the right hon. Gentleman or I want to see in this country, so we need to make choices. One choice that this Government are making is to ensure that we pull the NHS waiting lists back. I could digress into the NHS for a long time, but if he will forgive me, I will move on.
Looking at our schools estate, under the last Government the Department for Education asked the Treasury for capital funding for schools of £5.3 billion in 2020. It was allocated only £3.1 billion, so there is a big backlog there.
In the defence sector there are many examples, but I will pick just a couple. Not a single nuclear submarine that has come out of service has yet been decommissioned in this country. It will cost around £500 million in 2018 prices for a single one, amounting to nearly three quarters of a billion pounds in 2018 prices to complete all of those. It is getting to a critical point. These decisions have been delayed and deferred for too long—in this case, by Governments of all colours, not just the last Government—and there is a gap of at least £17 billion in the defence equipment plan over 10 years.
There is also a lack of transparency about local authority spending because of the crisis in local government audit, which was overseen by the last Government. Not enough was done to deal with it. I could go on: there is a long list of expensive things that this Government now need to put right because of neglect over a period of time.
Several hon. Members rose—
Dame Meg Hillier
Let me continue for a moment. There are budget challenges this year, and many decisions that were made in recent Budgets will hit the public finances in 2025, 2026 or beyond, because there was either huge optimism about the state of economic growth or a deferral of painful cuts. Different Members of the House will have their own views.
Paul Holmes (Hamble Valley) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Member on the post to which she has been elected. She has just outlined a number of projects for which public money needs to be found. As the shadow Secretary of State outlined, the Government’s decision today will save £1.1 billion, and the replacements they are putting in place will cost £3 billion. How does that make economic sense, and how does it help the case that she is making?
Dame Meg Hillier
I give credit to the hon. Gentleman for his chutzpah in coming to the House today to say that it is this Government who have denuded pensioners of income. As my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Gareth Snell) highlighted, the previous Government have a track record in that area, and there are 880,000 pensioners who, on the hon. Gentleman’s watch, deserved pension credit but did not get it. Those pensioners have lost out on £3,900 a year, in some cases for many years, because the last Government fell down on the job. They protected some pensioners, but not all. Where was the urgency then? These are crocodile tears when those people were suffering, but it is right that pensioners should get what they are entitled to, and pension credit is not being abolished by this Government. Rather, it is being promoted to make sure that the very poorest pensioners get that income.
One of the things that is absolutely apparent is that we cannot take this issue in isolation. We have a Budget coming on 30 October, and knowing what I knew a few months ago as Chair of the Public Accounts Committee and what I know today, I am not going to change my tune about the dire state of public finances. However, we face a second challenge: at the same time that our public finances are in that dire state, many of our citizens face the same challenges in their personal finances. This Labour Government are rightly committed to growth, but that will require an approach to taxation that helps ensure growth. We will therefore hear many arguments about the need for a taxation system that will underpin growth.
Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Stamford) (Con)
I thank my honourable friend for giving way. I call her “friend” because we have worked together very closely over the past few years, and I welcome her election—I would have supported her for that role.
The difficulty is that the public are not buying it. The Government cannot claim that they need to take this money from vulnerable pensioners—over 20,000 in my constituency will lose the support they are currently getting—and then reward train drivers who work four days a week on 70 grand a year. That is the difficulty, so how is my hon. Friend explaining that to her constituents? I have not been able to give an answer.
Dame Meg Hillier
I could speak forever about the challenges that the last Government left. I have spoken about the NHS, but let us take the dire state of our train services. The previous Government refused to engage and stop the strikes, which meant that anybody travelling had no certainty about whether they could get to everything from work to a family funeral. Lives were put in havoc, so it is absolutely right that we begin to set right the chaos that the last Government left. Yes, there is a cost to that, so the challenge for my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West and Pudsey and this Government is how we address that, making decisions that will build up the future of Britain in the way that we all want to see.
We also need to address the issue of taxation. The biggest challenge in our taxation system is that those who face the greatest financial challenges often face the biggest challenges of all, because the greatest cliff edges in our taxation and benefits system affect not those who are starting to earn and accumulate wealth, but those who are most financially challenged. For those at the margin, we keep coming across examples—this is not the only one—where the marginal costs of a slight improvement in income can drastically outweigh that improvement, whether that is tax thresholds being frozen or the issues we have seen with child benefit. There are many more examples, and the debate we are having today is one of those. The solution is not to duck or defer the need for tough choices, so, for the record, I will be voting with the Government. Equally for the record, though, I want this Government to commit to tackling those cliff edges, because that is what progressive policy—including taxation policy—looks like.
Like many Members of this House, I know from bitter experience that rushed laws tend to be bad laws, so I do not expect some Houdini-like solution to be announced from the Front Bench by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) in her closing speech. Instead, I expect and trust that she will consider removing those chains of poverty as a key mission for this Government in a thoughtful, carefully planned way; one that is tied up with the next Budget but goes way beyond it.
I also know, as will many Members, that there are technical challenges in making changes. Look at what has happened with child benefit: the limits on income are dragging many people into tax returns, where households of the same income did or did not receive child benefit depending on who was earning the money. That is a lesson in why changes need to be made in a sustainable way and according to a plan. My right hon. Friend on the Front Bench and her colleagues have a plan, but the winter fuel allowance, which we are discussing now, is a prime example of the problems that those cliff edges create. Addressing those problems in isolation, however, will leave in place all the other cliff edges; we need to look at challenging poverty in the round.
I was honoured to be chosen yesterday to be Chair of the Treasury Committee. I do not yet have Committee members—they are yet to be elected, as is the Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee—so I cannot speak for a Committee that does not yet exist on a cross-party basis, but I will be urging the Committee to consider this wider challenge of cliff edges as a matter of urgency. I look forward to working with Ministers to find some practical steps forward.
We have to make tough choices as a Government in-year, because one of the challenges is that the hole in the public finances is not just about the hole today. In previous Budgets, decisions were made to defer spending to later years, so the real challenge is now. Too often I have seen calls for efficiency savings and cuts in-year that end up being deferred. If we look at what happened to the defence equipment plan under the Conservative Government in 2010, we see that there was a desire to balance the books. In doing so, the Ministry of Defence deferred spending—moved it to the right—which left us with aircraft carriers without aircraft and a raft of other problems. Deferring decisions and spending does not solve things, and this Government and this Cabinet are making the tough choices to make those difficult decisions in-year, because that is financially literate and the right thing to do.
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
If I can reach out to the Labour party for a moment, there is a case for having a serious debate about the total package that we give to pensioners. We could have done that in a sensible way—I have raised it myself, having questioned some aspects of the triple lock a couple of years ago. It is a very difficult debate, but I understand that the total package paid to pensioners as a proportion of gross national product must not keep increasing every year, because that is the way ultimately to bankrupt the country. We need to have a social contract between older people like myself and younger people, particularly when it comes to house building. I understand all that. That is the debate we should have been having today, and we could have combined as a House to have that debate and protect the public finances.
However, that is not the debate we are having. We are debating the action of a Government who have not just gone against a manifesto commitment—there was no manifesto commitment to do this—but actually gave a specific promise that they would not do it. This is surely a question of public trust. They gave an absolute guarantee and I think that is why people are so upset.
I know that some people will say, and here I declare an interest: why should somebody like me receive the winter fuel allowance? All right, let us have a serious debate about that. But what about the people—these are the people I feel so strongly about—who have worked hard all their life, have served their country, receive a very small occupational pension, do not receive pension credit and are looking after every penny, and suddenly, because they do not and cannot receive pension credit because they have a very small occupational pension, their winter fuel allowance is taken away? That will make a real difference to them, so we really have to consider them, and have a serious debate about how we are going to protect those people.
May I make one suggestion to the Government? The hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Dame Meg Hillier) alluded to the fact that there should have been a serious debate about tapering, or something similar. I will tell the House what this is all about. This is about a punishment beating. The New Labour Government decided they had to make their case that the public finances were in a dire state and that there was this—[Interruption.] Hang on—there was this £22 billion black hole. We spend £1,200 billion every year. The £22 billion so-called black hole is a mere accounting device. The Labour Government are trying to make the political point that the Conservative party ran the country into the ground, so we have to punish the pensioners. It is absolute and complete rubbish.
What those we represent cannot understand—the people who worked hard all of their life, who have done their bit for the country and whose total package is perhaps £13,000 or £14,000 a year—is that this so-called saving of public money is actually going to go to the train drivers, who earn £70,000 a year. So for God’s sake, let us have a serious debate, let us try to unite on this issue and let us not keep taking away benefits from people just above the pension credit limit. Of course, there are many pensioners who are entitled to pension credit who, for all sorts of reasons, will never claim it. They are suffering, so they will be even worse off.
There is another point to be made. The Government will argue that the total package will be worth more after the increase in the triple lock next year, but actually a pensioner who drew their pension before 2016, by the time they have had this cut, will probably be even worse off. The first cut in the state pension for years! This is not acceptable. This is not the right way to go about things. We should unite around a sensible package that rewards pensioners for their hard work, but does not just indulge in a political gesture.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
I recognise the serious economic context of the debate today. The Institute for Fiscal Studies, for example, has estimated that 320,000 people are being pushed into poverty because of mortgage interest rate rises triggered by the disastrous autumn 2022 mini-Budget, and of course the then Prime Minister made many unfunded policies.
I recognise that the policy measures in the King’s Speech will go a long way to reduce household costs and increase incomes in the medium term, but those tackling the appalling poverty that we are seeing will not come in time for this winter. I am proud that Labour are continuing with the triple lock on pensions, something that will be worth an extra £460, but that will not happen until next spring. The setting up of a new energy production company, Great British Energy, alongside making homes more efficient, is a fantastic initiative that will contribute to our net zero targets and reduce energy bills for millions, but again that will not be in time to offset the 10% increase in energy bills this winter. I support our focus on growing our economy, but again that will not happen overnight.
The Joseph Rowntree Foundation estimated in its report earlier this year that there are 2 million pensioners living in poverty—about one in six of all pensioners. In areas such as my constituency, poverty rates are much higher. We have one in two children living in poverty. From the figures, we estimate that will be the same for pensioners. We know that four in 10 older people in Oldham East and Saddleworth have a disability, and almost half have a long-term health condition. We also know that, even before the escalation of energy costs, over one in six households were living in fuel poverty. Although pension credit provides extra financial support for the poorest pensioners, and opens up help such as housing benefit and council tax discounts for those who are eligible for it, only 5,500 of the 9,000 households in Oldham are eligible to claim it. Again, I welcome the automatic linking of pension credit to housing benefit to increase the uptake, but this again will not happen in time—in the next few months.
Debbie Abrahams
I am not going to give way. I thank the right hon. Member, but I cannot because I am under strict guidance from the Deputy Speaker.
One in three pensioners living in poverty are in the private rented sector, so what are we going to do about that? Even if everyone eligible for pension credit were claiming it, according to Age UK, there would still be another 2 million pensioners slightly less badly off who will not be eligible for pension credit and now the winter fuel payment. The cut-off threshold for pension credit is just under £12,000 a year for a single person. These are not wealthy pensioners. Poverty is poverty whoever experiences it, and we know that we have 8 million working people living in poverty, as well as 4.5 million disabled people, 4 million children and 2 million pensioners. As we did in previous Labour Administrations, I know we will tackle this, but again it will not happen overnight.
Could I point out what we know about the health effects of the cold? The Lancet published a very good paper reviewing data from the last 20 years, and it showed the extra deaths—the excess deaths—as a result of cold. I could mention dozens and dozens of cases from my constituents who have written to me and who, again, are just clinging on following the last 14 years. Is my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State able to say not just what other options she may have considered for offsetting the loss of the £300, but what alternative ways there are of raising the £1.4 billion we will get from means-testing the winter fuel payment? I know how complex and difficult our economic situation is, but, please, we must protect our most vulnerable citizens.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD)
Recent weeks have seen my inbox inundated with correspondence from pensioners in North East Fife, because it gets quite cold up there, who are deeply worried. I am sure—in fact, I know—that that is far from a unique experience across this House. Since the Chancellor’s announcement in late July, we have all heard the concerns of our elderly constituents. We know that the winter fuel payment provides vital support during the coldest months of the year. It is not a luxury, and the Chancellor’s decision will leave as many as 2 million people extremely worried about how they will afford their energy bills this winter.
We on the Liberal Democrat Benches accept that the new Government have been left with an unenviable task of rebuilding our economy after the mess left by the previous Government. No one is disputing that years of Conservative mismanagement have left the public finances in crisis, but this cut is simply wrong. It is wrong to strip support from many of the poorest pensioners just as energy bills are set to rise again, it is wrong to force vulnerable elderly people to make that choice between heating and eating this winter and it is the wrong answer to the challenges we face.
The way we treat the vulnerable members of our communities reflects who we are as a society. What sort of signal does it send to be turning our backs on millions of pensioners? In addition, I have campaigned consistently for unpaid carers since my election, as has my party and our leader, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Ed Davey). Census figures, with the proviso that Scottish census data is still awaited, suggest that almost 1.4 million people across the UK aged over 65 are providing unpaid care. Although Carers UK awaits data on how many will lose the winter fuel allowance, we know that those carers, and those they care for, are some of the most vulnerable in our society.
Steff Aquarone (North Norfolk) (LD)
On the disproportionate effects on certain groups, I am sure my hon. Friend is aware that North Norfolk is home to 28,000 pensioners and has the title of being the oldest constituency in the country. Many of them already face higher energy costs due to the huge number of North Norfolk homes that are off the gas grid. Does she agree that these cuts will have a disproportionate impact on older rural constituencies such as North Norfolk, and that the Government must go back to the drawing board with these misguided proposals?
Wendy Chamberlain
That is one thing often lost in relation to the energy price increases that we have seen in recent years: the price cap and guarantee does not support those who are using other forms of fuel. Those issues have been raised in the House before and I look forward to hearing what the Government are going to do to support those individuals.
A new Parliament represents an opportunity to move on from the chaos and misery of recent years, but this cut would be far from a fresh start. It would be a disappointing and shameful abandonment of poor and vulnerable pensioners. Age UK has strongly condemned the cut. It points out that it has been introduced with
“virtually no notice and no compensatory measures”.
I note from the debate this morning, when the Minister for Pensions was talking about compensatory measures, that there is real complexity around what will additionally be available to support people. We know the questionnaires that are needed for pension credit. We know that the household support fund has been extended, but we do not know what that will mean. We know that the £150 grant may be available for some, but after listening to the debate this morning, we are left in the position where the Government have made a decision to make the cut, but they have not properly thought through the consequences or the measures that will be available to support those most in need.
Rebecca Harris (Castle Point) (Con)
Does the hon. Lady agree that in 2010, when the coalition Government came in, we inherited a really serious economic crisis and a genuine black hole, and we had to make some very tough decisions as a coalition Government, but we never considered—and never did—this?
Wendy Chamberlain
Obviously, difficult decisions were made during the coalition. The Government are saying today that one of the things they are doing is continuing the triple lock. One reason why the Liberal Democrats supported and brought that move in during the coalition Government, and one reason why we continue to support it, is that still not enough has been done to best support our vulnerable pensioners.
Pete Wishart (Perth and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
I am sure the hon. Lady will acknowledge that Scotland has the coldest climate in the whole United Kingdom. We will be disproportionately hit. It is absurd that that will happen in energy-rich Scotland. Will she appeal to all Scottish Members to ensure their support tonight? Constituents right across Scotland will be watching carefully how Scottish Members of Parliament vote tonight, so will she encourage them to vote with us this evening?
Wendy Chamberlain
We all know that geographical disparities exist. There are differences in how cold parts of the country are. Different communities face differing energy costs and rates and have different means of fuel. We will be supporting the official Opposition’s motion tonight and I hope other MPs across the House do so.
Age UK has drawn attention to low take-up rates for pension credit. Around 1 million pensioners would be eligible for pension credit but do not claim it, often due to a lack of awareness. Since the Chancellor’s announcement, we have seen lots from the Government about how they are going to increase the uptake. Reports do suggest an increase in applications, but also that the wait times for that are increasing. If people are applying for pension credit and get it confirmed only after the date on which the winter fuel payment is made, will those people be caught up with?
An awareness drive is all well and good. The DWP has stated that its calculations assume an increase in the uptake of pension credit. That will still leave more than 700,000 eligible pensioners not getting pension credit, and therefore not getting winter fuel payments. Those of us in the last Parliament will remember numerous drop-ins and “dear colleagues” to outline the steps that the then Government were taking to encourage the uptake of pension credit, and what MPs could do. I remember writing regularly in my local newspaper column to outline how people could apply, but in reality the number of people taking up pension credit is stubbornly stuck at a ceiling of 70%. I would be interested to know what the Government are going to do that will be radically different in order to increase that figure.
The Government’s rationale is that an estimated £1.4 billion will be saved by means-testing the winter fuel payment, but have they made an assessment of what that saving would be if they fulfil that other stated aim of ensuring that all those eligible for pension credit claim it? Is there not a fundamental contradiction at the heart of this measure? How can the Government aim to boost pension credit on the one hand, while aiming to maximise the fiscal savings they are making through this cut? What will it cost to increase the take-up rate, and can the Secretary of State give an assurance that the Treasury will give its full support to any measures aimed at boosting the uptake of pension credit?
A separate but related issue is that of the cliff edge. Analysis by Policy in Practice shows that around 130,000 elderly people miss out on pension credit, as they are just £500 over the income threshold to claim the benefit. We know that those vulnerable elderly people will now be cut off from winter fuel payments with just a few months’ notice. That leaves me feeling that there is cruelty at the heart of this cut. Those vulnerable pensioners, who have spent years struggling under a Conservative cost of living crisis, are now faced with a double hit: an increase in the energy price cap from 1 October, alongside being stripped of those winter fuel payments.
It is important that we do not forget that energy costs are much increased from a few years ago, so arguably a winter fuel payment is needed more than ever. This House has an opportunity today to do the right thing and protect those vulnerable members of our society. The Liberal Democrats will support the official Opposition motion and oppose the move to strip pensioners of that support. I hope other Members will do the same.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
Order. Members will have seen that there is a lot of interest in this debate, so I will impose a clear three-minute time limit from now on.
Anna Dixon (Shipley) (Lab)
I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in this debate on changes to the winter fuel allowance. Like many of my colleagues, I have been contacted by constituents who are worried about the impact of these changes. I bring to this debate 25 years of experience of working in public health and with older people, latterly as chief executive of a national ageing charity. During that time I came to understand the impact of cold and damp homes on the health and wellbeing of older people, and the challenges of addressing pensioner poverty.
Let us be clear with those pensioners up and down the country who will be losing their winter fuel payments about where ultimate responsibility for today’s decision lies. It is not with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor, but with the right hon. Member for Godalming and Ash (Jeremy Hunt) and his party. It turns out that the Conservatives were pursuing a scorched earth policy: the NHS running on empty; the cost of housing asylum seekers spiralling; and hollow promises on capital projects across the country, including in my constituency. I know that the Chancellor and her colleagues have not taken the decision to means-test the winter fuel payment lightly; hard choices have to be made to put the country’s finances back in order.
We know that many pensioners will miss out, and I worry that they will be left in the cold. In my constituency 1,160 people are eligible for pension credit but not receiving it. I spoke to a resident in a sheltered housing scheme in Cottingley at the weekend. He did not know whether he was eligible, and was not sufficiently mobile to attend a local community centre. Will the Secretary of State work with colleagues in the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government to urge housing associations and local authorities to support their residents to apply for pension credit and other benefits to which they may be entitled?
The other group who risk being left in the cold this winter are those with disabilities or health conditions, or those who live in cold and damp accommodation. Cold homes can cause and worsen respiratory conditions, cardiovascular disease, poor mental health, dementia and hypothermia. In 2019, the NHS spent at least £2.5 billion per year treating illnesses that were directly linked to cold, damp and dangerous homes.
Pensioners are more likely to be living in poorly insulated homes, leading to a higher risk of fuel poverty. I am worried about pensioners such as Barbara in my constituency—she is a full-time carer and her husband has dementia—having to spend more money because her and her husband are at home and he is ill.
Given the crisis that the NHS faces, as a direct result of the 14 years of funding pressure and cuts from the Conservatives, I urge colleagues to work with colleagues in the Department of Health and Social Care to ensure that winter planning guidance means that the NHS tackles fuel poverty.
Esther McVey (Tatton) (Con)
Who would have thought that a Prime Minister not even in office for 10 weeks would be so out of touch with the public? Yet here we are, and yes this Prime Minister is so out of touch, along with the Chancellor and the whole of the Cabinet who are going along with and supporting this cruel policy. The Chancellor should be under no illusion: the public know that this decision to rob millions of pensioners of their winter fuel allowance, for which the Government have no mandate, has nothing to do with economics and everything to do with cynical political calculation.
The haste with which the change is being made is breathtaking. All benefits regulations are required by law to be considered by the independent Social Security Advisory Committee. That is generally done in advance of the legislation being laid. In this case, however, the Labour Government has opted for the urgency provision, which allows SSAC consideration to be retrospective. Some say that is bypassing SSAC scrutiny. As well as evading that scrutiny, where is the Government’s impact assessment on removing winter fuel payment from these pensioners, particularly in the light of the latest information that bills will be rising by £150 this year?
Neil O'Brien (Harborough, Oadby and Wigston) (Con)
There are 18,900 people losing winter fuel payments in my constituency, and many of them are among the 800,000 people who are not eligible for pension credit, but are below the Government’s own poverty line. What are they supposed to do?
Esther McVey
Well said. What is worse, that this Labour Government are so out of touch so early on in their government, the unnecessary haste that this change is being brought in with, the lack scrutiny of this policy, or Labour’s breathtaking hypocrisy? Back in 2017, when the Conservative manifesto stated that we would means-test benefits, the Labour party’s reaction was one of horror, saying that this could not be done and publishing research showing that up to 4,000 pensioners’ lives would be at risk and that pensioners would struggle to heat their homes. The Conservatives did not do it.
What are we seeing here? We are seeing that a Labour party in office ditches its beliefs and its research. This Government have been telling pensioners that they did not want to do this, but that tough financial decisions must be made. We all know, however, that that is poppycock, as it was not the Government’s message to the already highly paid train drivers. When they met them, money was no object. They said, “Have as much as you want.”
The public are not as stupid as this Government think they are. This is good old-fashioned pork barrel politics, taking money away from the people who the Chancellor thinks do not vote Labour, such as pensioners, to hand to people who she thinks do vote Labour, such as train drivers and public sector workers. Millions of pensioners, many struggling to make ends meet, are being sacrificed in this political strategic game.
By announcing the scrapping of the forthcoming and long-awaited cap on care costs, as well as laying the ground to remove the council tax allowance for single people, Labour has basically declared war on pensioners, which will be neither forgotten nor forgiven. Our pensioners deserve better than this. It is time that Labour reversed this decision and restored the winter fuel allowance to all pensioners.
Andy MacNae (Rossendale and Darwen) (Lab)
In the interests of brevity, I associate myself with some of the remarks made by my colleagues on the Government Benches on the desperate financial legacy we have been left and the nature of cliff edges within the benefits system. We should do better than have cliff edges in the future.
Let us remind ourselves that the subject of this debate is the Opposition motion not to means-test winter fuel payments. Let us face it: that means maintaining payments to millions of people, including some Opposition Members, who are happy to admit that they do not need it. Given the dire legacy, the fragility of the economy and the immediate need for in-year savings, this is an emergency measure. With all the other calls on public spending, I cannot see how such payments are the best use of £1 billion or more.
At the same time, I know that many of my constituents on state benefits, with small private pensions, simply do not have the income to meet their everyday needs. They fear not just the winter cold, but every bill. Many have written to me with heartbreaking stories of everyday struggles just to maintain the basic qualities of life. We have heard some mitigations, and we will hear about more. Let us remind ourselves that that includes the fact that the poorest pensioners will retain their winter fuel payments. Let us remind ourselves that people just above the threshold can apply for household funding support through their councils. My office in Rossendale and Darwen is already working hard with residents to make sure that everyone in need gets the support they need. We have already helped a number of pensioners to get the benefits they deserve and need.
At the same time, we need to recognise that none of these steps, including the winter fuel payment itself, addresses the fundamental issues of pensioner poverty. We have to ask how this country can be spending more than £150 billion a year on pensioner payments when millions of Britons—people who have done the right thing all their lives, worked hard and paid in—are still living in deep poverty and unable to afford the most basic comforts. That is not something we should simply accept; such deep pensioner poverty should be a national embarrassment.
Successive Governments have ducked the issue. Winter fuel payments are one example of the sticking-plaster politics that has sought to kick the can down the road, responding to a problem but never fully addressing it. The benefit is poorly targeted, and for those who need it most, it is not nearly enough to make the difference. To truly address pensioner poverty, we need a fresh approach and to be willing to challenge the assumptions of the past, with ambitious policies that target the causes of poverty, not just the symptoms. Home insulation and lower energy prices with GB Energy are just two examples, but we can and must do so much more. We can only deliver real change with an economy that is fixed and stabilised. That is what this Government are utterly committed to.
Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
Today, hon. and right hon. Members will make a choice: whether to take vital winter fuel payments from millions of vulnerable pensioners, including 20,000 pensioners in my constituency. It is important, when Members vote today, that they understand the consequences of their choice. It is important that they understand that when they take winter fuel payments away from vulnerable people, some elderly people will die. Vulnerable elderly people on relatively low incomes will be unable to heat their homes adequately, and as a direct result, because they are cold, they will die. Why? They will die because cold is bad for people. A number of reports that Members may read demonstrate that.
When cold, people’s platelets get higher, they vasoconstrict and their blood pressure goes up, putting them at risk of stroke or heart attack. Their lungs become inflamed, which puts them at risk of pneumonia or chest infection. It makes people with chronic pulmonary obstructive disease more likely to suffer exacerbations and ill health. Studies have shown that physical performance and muscle strength—taking caps off things or walking about—are worse in people who are cold, particularly elderly people. That reduces their ability to complete the activities of daily living independently, and it makes them more likely to fall. Studies have also shown that elderly people who are cold in their home are more likely to need to get up at night to go to the toilet or to wake through the night. That again puts them at more risk of falls and therefore hospitalisation. Sleep disruption puts them at risk from a whole range of different illnesses.
We also know that as the home temperature falls further, the risks increase. It is a proportional dose-response relationship. The House does not need to take my word for it; there is a lot of medical evidence to this end.
The chief medical officer said in his annual report last year:
“Cold homes and fuel poverty are directly linked to excess winter deaths.”
Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con)
My hon. Friend is making a powerful, emotive speech and quite rightly talking about some of the impacts on pensioners. Does she agree that those are exactly the impacts that should be captured in an impact assessment and brought before the House so that we can make an informed decision and that my 25,000 constituents in Arundel and South Downs, who may face a loss if the motion is not agreed to, are increasingly talking about the right hon. Member for Leeds West and Pudsey (Rachel Reeves) as “Reckless Rachel” in proceeding with this measure?
Dr Johnson
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. He is absolutely right. Why is there no impact assessment? I have my suspicions, and my terrified constituents know why there is no impact assessment—it is because they know what the impact will be. I am sure, Madam Deputy Speaker, that your terrified constituents know what the impact of the policy will be. Right hon. and hon. Members all know, too. As right hon. and hon. Members vote, they should be in no doubt that the Government’s first job is to keep people safe, and they are going to fail miserably.
Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Dr Johnson). We sat together on the Health and Social Care Committee and heard the evidence from Sir Chris Whitty. We know what Professor Sir Michael Marmot has been saying for decades, and the public health evidence is clear.
Our inheritance was 2.1 million pensioners living in poverty; we have to protect them every single day. They make the hardest budgetary decisions—harder than those made in the Treasury, where there are choices. They have no choice. They have to put a roof over their heads, they have to pay for their food, and they have to pay for their heating. We know that those sums are not adding up—we are getting letters coming in— and we look at the figures that our constituents have to look at every single day. They are scared, and they are telling us that. They will not switch the switch, because they know that if they do, they will have bills that they cannot pay. We need to protect those very vulnerable people.
I commend my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for driving forward the ambition to get 880,000 pensioners signed up to pension credit. I really hope that people will test the system. There are 243 questions on the questionnaire, and then of course there is a nine-week wait for it to be processed, but we must drive that forward. The last Government failed in that endeavour.
We must also protect those that who do not apply. Many may not for a reason; we know that. They may have dementia, and the application is complex and stressful. Perhaps there is pride involved as well. We are talking about men and women who worked hard all their lives—they might have put a little bit aside or they might not—and ultimately we need to help them.
Then there are the million people who are above the threshold. They too need support, because they are fuel-poor and will struggle this winter. As the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham said, the cold puts greater demands on a person’s body. The body fights back but, sadly, as it does, people are at risk of heart attacks, strokes and worse. Of course, respiratory diseases prey on the most frail and vulnerable. When we look at where those people will go, we see that they will be queuing up at the GP and looking to the NHS. Sadly, many will not be with us.
It is with my conscience that I cannot vote for these measures, but I am determined to work with the Government to find mitigation, which is absolutely crucial. Age UK and many other charities are saying that it is too late to find alternatives; they say delay. I say, let us delay. Let us get this right—we cannot afford not to.
Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Some 860,000 pensioners in Scotland are set to lose this benefit. The Prime Minister and the Chancellor have chosen to cut the pensioner cost of living payment. They have chosen to cut the winter fuel allowance. They have made the political choice to scrap those payments.
The UK Labour Government are desperate to meet their self-imposed fiscal targets, but make no mistake: this is a political choice. They are trying to meet those targets by balancing the books on the backs of pensioners. Who out there in the real world voted for that?
This is a key test for Anas Sarwar and Labour MPs from Scotland. Anas Sarwar said:
“Read my lips: no austerity under Labour.”
If that is what he believes, the platform he put to the people of Scotland and what Scottish Labour MPs were voted in on, how can they possibly back the Government today? Who is the master of Scottish Labour MPs? Is it the Prime Minister, is it the Labour party, or is it the people who elected them—the people who put them here—who will go cold this winter because of their Government’s decisions?
This is not the change that people voted for. The UK Government are trailing broken promises behind them. They are refusing to scrap the two-child cap. They are refusing to allow pensioners the money to heat their homes this winter. That is not what people in Scotland voted for, and they will be devastated if their Scottish Labour MPs support the Government today.
Neil Duncan-Jordan (Poole) (Lab)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the chance to speak in this important debate. I felt compelled to do so because for nearly 20 years I was an active campaigner in the pensioner movement. I want to make it clear that the financial mess inherited by the Government is a result of 14 years of austerity and financial mismanagement, and I reject any suggestion that public sector workers are benefiting at the expense of pensioners. That is well known to be a crude attempt to divide working people, and we should reject it as such.
In the short time that I have, I want to make the case for universalism as the cornerstone of our welfare state. We know from the latest figures that 880,000 older people are eligible for pension credit but do not claim it. Means-testing is supposed to target help at those who need it most, but those people do not claim it. For decades, successive Governments have talked about needing to improve take-up, but even in the best year the take-up rate was 67%. Of course, some people do not claim it because they are unaware of what they are entitled to, but most are wary about having to answer more than 230 questions about their circumstances, and many charities such as Citizens Advice in my constituency do not have the capacity to help people fill the forms in because of cuts to funding over the years of austerity. We should also recognise that there is still a stigma attached to having to declare that you are struggling, and concepts around the deserving poor are as old as this building. I thought that in the 21st century we would be hoping for something better.
The key question with any means-tested-system is: where do we draw the line? By its very nature, the biggest losers will be those just above the cut-off point. In my constituency, around 19,000 people will miss out. The UK has long-standing problems such as poor housing that is difficult to keep warm, one of the lowest pensions in Europe, rising energy costs, and annual cold-related winter deaths among older people—I could go on, but I am running out of time. I urge the Government to think seriously about delaying this proposal and, in its place, putting forward a pensioner taskforce to look at how we can tackle pensioner poverty in the UK.
Saqib Bhatti (Meriden and Solihull East) (Con)
I stand to speak on behalf of my 18,500 pensioners who will be affected by this measure. Before I do so, I commend the hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) on a really impassioned speech. I know it is not easy to stand against one’s own party, but today’s decision is a choice between right and wrong. Members are defending the choice by the Government and the Chancellor to make this decision on the backs of pensioners, who have the sheer brass neck to go out and defend it, alleging a black hole when they have paid billions to unions without any savings in return. There is GB Energy—a shell company for £8 billion—and climate promises of more than £11 billion, and then they say that there is no money and they are going to get £1.1 billion on the back of pensioners.
Helena Dollimore (Hastings and Rye) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the hon. Member give way?
Saqib Bhatti
I will not, because I am sure the hon. Lady can participate later. The Government might be fooling themselves, but they are not fooling the British public or my pensioners. If they want to do the right thing, they should follow the example of the hon. Member for York Central. If there are issues, I am sure that even the Opposition will look into them in depth and we will do the right thing, but the Government are using our pensioners as some sort of political tool to make an ideological point. The Chancellor stood up and found this alleged black hole to try to justify that. It is a horrible situation—
Saqib Bhatti
I will not give way, as I will make some progress in the limited time I have. Many Opposition Members are absolutely enraged that this is happening. The Labour party talked about transparency, yet there has been no full impact assessment of the measure. Where is it? If the Government have nothing to be afraid of, where is the impact assessment? Why did they not wait until the Budget—the big fiscal moment?
Saqib Bhatti
I have already said that I will not give way. There could have been adequate scrutiny so that the House could analyse it and see the impact. Some 4,000 people are at risk of death—that is not my number; that is what the Labour party said in 2017. That is what Labour Members are voting for if they allow this measure to pass. They must do the right thing, and not use our pensioners as a political weapon for their own ideology. This is a horrible situation to put them in. The anxiety that Members are causing is outrageous. The Government really must step up their game if they are to convince the British public that this is the right thing to do.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Ind)
When an issue such as this has been so heavily whipped, it is very difficult. I have not the eloquence to persuade people to vote another way, to be honest. I just want to make this as a personal statement, so that my constituents know why I am voting the way that I will today.
I agree with the Government on so many points on this issue. First, this is the most toxic inheritance that any Government have ever had. I did a report last September that said that between 2010 and now we have lost £80 billion, not £20 billion. On the £20 billion black hole, we sat here and listened to a Government making commitments that they knew they would never have to fulfil, because they knew they were going out of power. I agree with the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer that we must ensure financial stability and that our income matches our expenditure. I agree with the Prime Minister on the principle, and always have, that any burden should be placed on those with the broadest shoulders. This is where I disagree: the heaviest burden is not being placed on those with the broadest shoulders but on some of the poorest.
Large numbers of my constituents do not claim pension credit, and I will be out there like everyone else trying to persuade them to apply, but a lot of my voluntary organisations have been savaged by a Tory council. We do not even have the advice mechanisms left. I think that, at best, we can get to 70% or maybe 75%, but one in four will not be able to claim that benefit. I have large numbers of people who, for example, worked at the airport and got a little pension at the end, and they will be tipped into not qualifying. They are living in accommodation that those on the Opposition Benches provided, which is squalor, to be frank—they are living in not insulated, freezing accommodation. They are the ones at risk, as the hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Dr Johnson) said, of going to hospital and not even surviving.
We are in an unnecessary position, because there is so much else we could do. We do not need to put the burden on the poorest. We need to make sure that those who can afford it pay. That means redistributive tax measures, equalising capital gains tax, tackling the corporate tax relief issues that we must confront, and making sure that the City pays its way in financial transactions. We do not have to be here. I hope that people learn the lesson as we move towards this Budget not to put us on this position again, where we take a decision based on, I believe, misjudgment. It certainly flies against everything I believe in as a Labour MP about tackling inequality and poverty in our society. I was not elected to impoverish my constituents and put them in this hardship. I regret voting for a motion put forward by these characters in the Opposition, but I will have to because there is no other mechanism. I want to look at my people back in Hayes in the face and say that I did the right thing.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Liz Kendall)
This has been a really important debate about a serious issue, with many heartfelt contributions. My hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Dame Meg Hillier), the new Chair of the Treasury Committee, forensically set out the delayed and deferred decisions by the former Government that have put such pressure on the public finances. My hon. Friend the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams) rightly spoke about pensioners, children and disabled people in poverty, and the need to do much more to support them. The hon. Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain) talked about the crucial issue of pension credit uptake and what we will do differently. I will say more about that later, but I reassure her that the Treasury is fully behind the action that we are taking.
My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Anna Dixon), who has huge experience in health and social care, talked about the need to work with those in supported accommodation, housing associations and the NHS to ensure that pensioners get the help that they are entitled to. I will spell out some of that action. My hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Andy MacNae) made a strong case for targeting help to the poorest pensioners and the need to tackle the root causes of poverty, including insulating homes and bringing down energy costs. My hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Neil Duncan-Jordan) mentioned, among many things, the very long and complicated pension credit form, which I have asked the Department to reduce to make it as simple as possible.
I would like to start by setting out why we have taken the difficult decision to means-test winter fuel payments so that they are no longer available to all pensioners whatever their income, but are focused on those in the greatest need. Put simply, it is because we must fix the foundations of our economy as the first step to rebuilding Britain and making the changes that our country desperately needs, and because when money is tight, our priority must be to target resources at those who need them the most.
Opposition Members do not want to be reminded of their record and the state they left the country in, but their economic failure and reckless decisions left a £22 billion hole in the public finances this year, with a £6.4 billion overspend on the asylum system, a £2.9 billion overspend on the transport budget, and new roads, hospitals and train stations announced but not budgeted for. There was one unfunded commitment after another, and the reserves were spent three times over—spending like there is no tomorrow, with no thought for the consequences today. That is before we even begin to deal with the challenges we already knew about: NHS waiting lists at 7.6 million, more than 1 million waiting for a council home, a totally broken prison system and more than 4 million children growing up poor. Opposition Members want to deny that is the case, but the Office for Budget Responsibility is crystal clear: it was made aware of the true extent of the pressures on the public finances only after we were elected—pressures it says constitute one of the largest overspends outside the pandemic. Faced with that reality and the need to get the public finances on track this year, we took the difficult decision to focus winter fuel payments on those in greatest need.
Lucy Rigby (Northampton North) (Lab)
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way. Pension credit uptake is clearly critically important. From discussions I have had in my constituency, I know there are some myths around pension credit eligibility. Will the Secretary of State please confirm the efforts she is making on pension credit uptake, and does she agree with me that it is vital we ensure everyone who is eligible for pension credit receives it?
Liz Kendall
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I would make that point in response to the faux outrage of Conservative Members, who left 880,000 pensioners, the very poorest, not getting the pension credit they are entitled to. I urge all hon. Members to work with us that their local councils to ensure pensioners get the money to which they are entitled.
As my right hon. Friends the Chancellor and the Prime Minister have said, this is not a decision we wanted or expected to make, but when we promised we would be responsible with taxpayers’ money we meant it, because we know what happens when Conservative Members play fast and loose with the public finances: working people and pensioners on fixed incomes pay the price with soaring interest rates, mortgages and inflation.
Dame Harriett Baldwin
I thank the Secretary of State. Will she confirm from the Dispatch Box that if every pensioner who is eligible for pension credit takes it up, the cost to the Exchequer will actually be substantially more than the savings from axing the winter fuel payment?
Liz Kendall
Is that the reason why Conservative Members never took the action needed to increase pension credit uptake? We take a different approach. All the savings the Chancellor has announced take into account the increased uptake that we want and intend to achieve. When money is so tight, it cannot be right that all pensioners, including some of the wealthiest pensioners, receive a payment worth £200 to £300 a year regardless of their income.
Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)
I thank the right hon. Lady for giving way and allowing me the opportunity, at this late stage of the debate, to speak on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland.
Not in our name, Secretary of State. This is a political choice, irrespective of the debate back and forth between the Labour Government and the Conservative Opposition. It is not for us, it is not right and this measure is a measure of shame.
Liz Kendall
I know the right hon. Gentleman will care about the increase in uptake in pension credit that we need, and that he will also care about those just above the threshold, which I will turn to later on. That is a really important issue and I will address it head on, but first I want to spell out the principle underlying the approach we have taken, which is the most help going to those who need it most and significant support for all pensioners through the pension triple lock, backed by extra help available for those on low incomes.
Pension credit goes to 1.4 million of the poorest pensioners and is worth on average £3,900 a year.
Liz Kendall
I will not.
But the truth we had to confront coming into office was that up to 880,000 of the very poorest pensioners are not even claiming the pension credit that they are entitled to. That is a national scandal, and we are determined to make that change. The previous Government did nothing to tackle this issue properly. Indeed, in 2012 they promised to merge housing benefit and pension credit, which we know would significantly increase uptake, yet when I arrived in the Department I learned it would not happen until 2028—a decision that was taken on their watch. That is completely unacceptable and, unlike the Conservatives, we will change it.
Mike Amesbury
I thank the Secretary of State for giving way and welcome the increased measures to target the 880,000 who, because of the actions of Conservative Members when they were in government for 14 years, have not received pensioner credit. There are people who have legitimate concerns about the low level of the threshold—hard-working people who have tiny pension pots. What mitigating measures will the Secretary of State put in place?
Liz Kendall
I will come on to extra help for those just above the threshold in a moment, but I want to spell out what we are doing on pension credit.
We have done more to increase pension credit uptake in the last two months than Conservative Members did in 14 years. We have written to all local authorities to ask them to identify eligible pensioners, including by sharing data. We are joining forces with Age UK and Citizens Advice to ensure pensioners check and apply. We launched a major awareness campaign, to continue right up to the deadline to apply on 21 December—and yes, pension credit will be backdated by three months—backed by 450 extra staff to ensure claims are processed as quickly as possible.
The Deputy Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner), is working with housing associations and supported accommodation providers so that their residents know what they are entitled to. I am working with the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, my right hon. Friend the Member for Ilford North (Wes Streeting), to ensure that frontline NHS staff can signpost older patients who may be housebound because of disabilities and chronic conditions. For the very first time, we are writing to all pensioners on housing benefit who are potentially eligible to encourage them to claim, something the Conservatives never did. In the longer term, because the only way to guarantee uptake is to make the whole process more automated, we will bring forward the merger of housing benefit and pension credit, which Conservative Members never did.
That is the extra help for the poorest that we are determined to deliver, but it is built on a bedrock of support for all pensioners through our commitment to the pension triple lock, which has seen the new state pension increase by £900 this year and £970 the year before. Our continued commitment to the triple lock means that the new state pension is forecast to increase by a further £1,700 over the course of this Parliament, including, if today’s Office for National Statistics figures are confirmed next month, an extra £460 from next April.
Paul Waugh (Rochdale) (Lab/Co-op)
When Gordon Brown introduced pension credit and lifted 1 million pensioners out of poverty, in the teeth of the opposition of the Conservative party—let us remind them Conservative Members opposed pension credit—he also introduced savings credit. Savings credit was specifically targeted at pensioners who saved for old age with a small savings pot and a second pension. What happened in 2016? The Conservative party scrapped it. Does my right hon. Friend not agree with me that we should not listen to the crocodile tears of those in the Conservative party?
Liz Kendall
I could not have put it better myself: there is faux outrage from Conservative Members about those just above the pension credit threshold, when it was their former Tory Chancellor, George Osborne, who took a red pen to it, meaning its value decreased, creating some of the problems we are now having to deal with.
There is much more we are doing to help low-income pensioners, including those just above pension credit: the £150 warm home discount; the household support fund, which we have just extended, with £500 million of additional funding that councils can use to help low-income pensioners; our warm homes plan to tackle the root causes of fuel poverty; and the fact that, because the only way to really control energy bills is through cheap home-grown energy, we have already legislated for Great British Energy. That is the difference a Labour Government make: fixing the foundations, taking the long-term decisions our country needs, prioritising help for those who need it most, helping all pensioners with the pension triple lock, and providing more help for low-income pensioners too.
We will not shy away from our responsibilities, as Members now on the Opposition Benches did. We were elected on a platform to deliver economic stability, rebuild the country and make the changes that our country needs; making it better and giving it its future back. Pensioners deserve better than the faux outrage of Opposition Members.
Question put.
Business of the House (Today)
(3 months, 3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Opposition Day
(3 months, 3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Winter Fuel Payment
(3 months, 3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
18:15 - The House divided: - Ayes: 214 / Noes: 335 - Question accordingly negatived.
Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House regrets that the Government approved the use of the urgency exemption in section 173 of the Social Security Administration Act 1992 to make and lay the Social Fund Winter Fuel Payment Regulations 2024 before the Secretary of State had referred the Regulations to the Social Security Advisory Committee; further regrets that the Government decided it was not necessary to publish an impact assessment for the Regulations, despite, for example, the evidence which shows that living in a cold home increases the risk of serious illness for vulnerable people and those with disabilities and so restricting eligibility for the Winter Fuel Payment is likely to lead to increased burdens on the National Health Service; regrets that the Government made time to debate the prayer motion from the Official Opposition without the Social Security Advisory Committee’s Report, and Government response; and calls on the Government to lay those papers before Parliament without delay, and to publish a full regulatory and equality impact assessment for these Regulations.
The decision to remove winter fuel payments has come as a complete shock to millions of pensioners—pensioners on as little as £11,500 a year. We have had no adequate explanation as to why this measure is so urgent. We have had no explanation as to why the Government had to invoke the special emergency provisions that allow them to bypass the scrutiny of the Social Security Advisory Committee. We have had no explanation as to why no impact assessments were provided. This is a major policy change that will remove the entitlement for up to 10 million pensioners, including many who are already in poverty. It is a cut worth £7.5 billion over the course of this Parliament. Rushing such a policy through—without taking time to consider the impacts, ensure effective and fair implementation, and allow possible scrutiny—is impossible to justify. This is not the way to make good policy, and this is not good government.
It is worth considering the conclusions of one of the few bodies that have been afforded the opportunity to scrutinise these regulations. The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee in the Lords has been damning in its criticism of the Government’s approach, and I refer the House to my remarks in the previous debate, when I quoted the Committee at some length. As the Committee points out, such measures would normally be subject to the SSAC’s consideration. That is an important part of the process for any legislation of this nature, as I know well from my time as Work and Pensions Secretary. Conveniently, Ministers have claimed that the measure is too urgent to wait for the SSAC’s scrutiny.
We understand that the SSAC is due to consider the measure tomorrow. Can the Minister commit to the House today that the SSAC’s report, and the Government statement responding to any recommendations, will be laid before Parliament before the regulations come into force next week? As the Lords Committee has pointed out, it would seem wholly inappropriate for the SSAC’s views to be taken into account only once the regulations are already in force. In the words of the Committee,
“It remains unclear what the practical impact of any statement might be on regulations which will have already come into effect.”
If the Government do not intend to provide us with the SSAC’s observations before the House rises on Thursday, why were Members asked to consider and vote on the prayer motion against the regulations today, before the SSAC has met?
The lack of any impact assessment means that we are severely hampered in our ability to scrutinise this measure. We were told in the explanatory memorandum that:
“A full Impact Assessment has not been prepared for this instrument because there is no significant new impact on business, charities or voluntary bodies.”
This seems a bold claim to make about a measure that removes hundreds of pounds of support from some of the most vulnerable elderly households in our country.
The guidance from the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence is clear:
“For a vulnerable person, living in a cold home increases their chance of serious illness or death.”
It also notes that
“being housebound increases both the exposure to an underheated home and the cost of heating it.”
So can I ask the Minister on what basis it was concluded that there would be no significant impact from this policy on those charities and organisations that support elderly people or on the wider health and social care system? Will he now commit to the publication of a proper impact assessment?
The only basis for the urgency seems to be a claim that this measure is vital for public finances. We have even been subjected to the Leader of the House claiming that it was needed to avoid a run on the pound. I might ask the Minister to comment on that when he appears at the Dispatch Box. The only real relevance of a measure of this kind to the public finances is its impact on the Government’s fiscal rules. Those fiscal rules are based on levels of debt and borrowing at the end of the Office for Budget Responsibility’s fiscal forecast period in five years’ time. The rules that the Chancellor has claimed she will sign up to were already being met when the Government came into office, according to the OBR’s own forecasts.
The Government could have opted to bring this measure in next year, with greater time for scrutiny, better notice for pensioners, more time to drive up pension credit uptakes and perhaps time to consider whether there were much better ways of going about it. It would still have been a broken promise, and we on this side of the House would still have opposed it, but it would have been a much better way to make policy and it would still have delivered exactly the same savings at the end of the forecast period.
Ministers will claim that they needed to make immediate in-year savings, but that is based entirely on a black hole that they have confected themselves. The real reason this is being rushed is pure politics. The Government want to rush this measure through while they can try to blame it on their predecessors in order to avoid proper scrutiny. There is no need whatsoever for the haste with which this is being done.
Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend, like me, find it inexplicable that the Government should fail to go through the proper process when their own research suggested that thousands of people could die as a result of precisely this measure? That is something that the whole House should find deeply uncomfortable.
Mel Stride
My right hon. Friend makes a powerful point. This is a very serious step that the Government are taking. Of all the steps that should be properly scrutinised, surely this is one of them. I remember when I was sitting on the other side of the Chamber, I could barely breathe without the cry going out that an impact assessment should be held. It is extraordinary that on such an important measure as this, affecting millions of the most vulnerable, the Labour party should be utterly silent on this issue.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
Old people die in cold homes, and they die particularly if they are very old. Does my right hon. Friend think that if the Government are not minded to change their mind entirely, they might look at those aged over 80? Those people are in receipt of the higher rate of winter fuel payment, and paragraph 3 of the regulations points out that there is a difference between those over 80 and those under 80. That might be one way that the Government could make this slightly less worse than it otherwise is.
Mel Stride
I thank my right hon. Friend for his intervention. It has been suggested that the Government are examining ways of ameliorating some of the harshest effects of this policy, and that might be one of the things they consider. On that particular point, we cannot escape the fact that, whatever age people are, over two thirds of those who are currently pensioners below the poverty line will lose their winter fuel payments under the current arrangements.
Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
I have the honour to represent the most remote, the most sparsely populated and the coldest constituency. The Secretary of State, in responding to my hon. Friend the Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain), said earlier that the Government would try to maximise the take-up of pension credit, and I accept that, but would they accept that sheer remoteness and sheer distance can militate against people taking up this offer? I ask the Government, via the right hon. Gentleman, to please look at this issue, because it means an awful lot to my constituents.
Mel Stride
I am sure that those on the Government Front Bench will have heard the hon. Gentleman’s intervention.
The reality is that the Government want to rush this through so that they can blame it on their predecessor and avoid proper scrutiny. There is no need whatsoever for the haste with which this is being done, other than to meet the political ends of the Labour party. They are ripping the plaster off and hoping that the country will have forgotten by the time of the next general election. That is at the heart of it, but we will not forget. We would not have been given the opportunity to debate and vote on this measure without significant pressure from the Opposition and the wider public. This is nothing to do with fiscal responsibility and everything to do with political expediency—no scrutiny, no impact assessment, no notice. This is an appalling way to govern.
The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (James Murray)
This is a serious topic and we know from the debate earlier this afternoon that it is one on which Members across this House and people across this country have strong feelings. We understand that. This is a difficult decision to have to take. By means-testing winter fuel payments, we know that we will be ending future payments to most pensioners while maintaining our steadfast commitment to protecting those in greatest need. But although they do not like to be reminded of it, Conservative Members know exactly why we need to take this step. Because it was Conservative Members—and, indeed, former Members of this House who have now been voted out by the British public—who did such damage to our country’s economy and the public finances. The legacy of the last—
Dame Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is the second Government Minister we have heard from the Dispatch Box today, yet only moments ago we saw the Chancellor sitting on the Front Bench. It was the Chancellor who chose to spend billions on setting up Great British Energy. It was the Chancellor who chose to spend billions giving pay rises to their union paymasters. It was the Chancellor—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
Order. I thank the hon. Lady, but she will be aware that that is not a point of order; it is more of a speech that she is seeking to make. Perhaps she will find an opportunity to contribute in the debate.
James Murray
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member who just intervened, and indeed everyone on that side of the House, might like to reflect on what the legacy of the last Government truly was. It was one of irresponsible overspending, of uncosted commitment after uncosted commitment, and of Ministers running away from taking difficult decisions. As a direct consequence, when we came to power we were faced with a £22 billion black hole in the public finances for this year alone.
Paul Holmes (Hamble Valley) (Con)
I am genuinely grateful to the Minister for giving way. He is a Minister at the Treasury, so I am hoping he will be able to outline some of the facts and answer my question. He will outline today that the saving made by cutting the winter fuel payment is £1.1 billion. If everybody accepted the means-testing that he is proposing, it would cost £3.3 billion, so can he outline to the House, despite the bluster that he has just made about saving money for the great British people, how it will save money when it will cost more under his proposals?
James Murray
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. The announced savings include an assumption of an increased take-up of pension credit, which is in line with the highest levels ever achieved. Frankly, if more people are taking up pension credit when they are eligible for it, we should welcome it because it means that support is being targeted at those in greatest need.
Several hon. Members rose—
James Murray
I am going to make some progress.
The Opposition did not like to be reminded of their legacy when they were in government, but let us have a look, shall we? What do they have to show for their years of reckless overspending? A failed asylum system, prisons at breaking point, more than 1 million people waiting for council homes, 4 million children growing up in poverty, and more than 7.5 million people on NHS waiting lists. This Government and every Member of this House who stood on my party’s manifesto were elected to turn things around.
Kit Malthouse (North West Hampshire) (Con)
Yesterday, in the other place, the Transport Minister cast doubt on the continuation of travel concessions for pensioners, which has caused significant alarm in my constituency and others. Notwithstanding the discussion we are having today, could the Minister reassure us that travel concessions for pensioners will continue under a Labour Government?
James Murray
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention. The Chancellor will take all decisions in the Budget on 30 October—[Interruption.] Let me make one important point to him as we approach the Budget on 30 October: we know there are going to be difficult decisions that we have to take in the Budget and, frankly, that is a direct consequence of the decisions taken by him and his colleagues when they were in government.
Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
As he is a Treasury Minister, I wonder whether he could help me with this question. How many of the pensioners who will lose the winter fuel allowance today receive less than the average train driver the Government have just given a pay rise to?
James Murray
I understand the political point that the hon. Lady is trying to make. But let me be clear. If she is talking about pensioners, the foundation of state support for pensioners is the state pension, which is why the Government have committed to maintaining the triple lock for the duration of this Parliament.
Several hon. Members rose—
James Murray
I am going to make some progress.
The triple lock means that pensioners are receiving £900 more this year. Figures released this morning indicate that they may get well over £400 more next year. Over the course of this Parliament, they will get £1,700 more under the state pension. That is the foundation of state support for pensioners.
Several hon. Members rose—
James Murray
I am going to make some progress.
We have seen clearly how Conservative Members do not like to be reminded of their legacy in government, of the mess in which they left the economy, our public services and the rest of our country after their 14 years in office. This Government and every Labour Member were elected to turn things around.
Several hon. Members rose—
James Murray
I am going to make some progress.
We are under no illusions. We know it will be a slow and difficult process when the damage goes so deep, but we are determined to fix the foundations of our country so that, on the bedrock of financial stability and fiscal responsibility, we can get our economy growing after 14 years under the Conservatives.
Dave Doogan (Angus and Perthshire Glens) (SNP)
I thank the Minister for giving way on the point about fiscal responsibility. I am not sure of the morality of trying to balance this country’s fiscal books on the backs of pensioners. He referenced the manifesto on which the Labour party stood at the election. “No austerity under Labour” was said in Scotland, so what should the 37 Scottish Labour MPs do in this vote? Should they bow down to the Chancellor, or should they stand up for their Scottish constituents?
James Murray
Every Labour Member was elected on a promise to restore economic stability and fiscal responsibility to our country, and it is on that basis that we will get the economy growing to make people across the country better off and to put our public services on a sustainable footing. I remind the hon. Gentleman that winter heating assistance is a devolved matter in Scotland. The Scottish Government intend to legislate to introduce a means-tested payment this winter which is equivalent to the winter fuel payment in England and Wales.
Several hon. Members rose—
James Murray
I have taken several interventions, so I will make some progress.
The point of this debate is to focus on why we have to take difficult economic decisions, even if they risk us being unpopular. We know that the universal application of winter fuel payments was already recognised as unfair. In the face of our dire economic inheritance, it is simply unsustainable.
We should be clear that, when the winter fuel payment was introduced in 1997, a higher percentage of pensioners than people of working age were in poverty. That is no longer the case. Put simply, there are now pensioners receiving winter fuel payments who do not need them and that is a reality we cannot afford.
Let me put it in financial terms. Over a quarter of pensioners have wealth of more than £1 million, half have wealth of over £500,000 and a fifth of pensioner households have gross incomes equivalent to £41,600 a year. That is why it is right to means-test winter fuel payment.
Dame Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)
Pensioners in my constituency will be saddened by the way the Minister is caricaturing pensioners as wealthy and not in need of this winter fuel support. Age UK has said that, in the Gosport constituency alone, 15,000 pensioners stand to lose their winter fuel payment. These are not wealthy people; they are people who, in many cases, are just outside the pension credit limit and are hanging on by their fingertips. Does he agree that caricaturing them as wealthy and not in need is unbelievably insulting?
James Murray
I think the hon. Lady unintentionally misunderstood my point. I will put the question back to her. Does she feel that pensioners who have wealth of over £1 million or who earn more than £41,600 a year should get the winter fuel payment in the context of the financial circumstances? The argument we are making is that, given the dire economic situation we face and given our dire inheritance, we should means-test the winter fuel payment.
Several hon. Members rose—
James Murray
I will make some progress, because it is important to explain why we are choosing to means-test the winter fuel payment. Means testing will allow us to make sure that those in the greatest need still receive the help they need. We will make sure that all pensioners continue to benefit from the triple lock, and we will start to deal with the shocking state of the public finances that we have inherited.
Several hon. Members rose—
James Murray
I am going to make some progress, as I have taken many interventions already.
Under our approach, those eligible for pension credit will continue to receive winter fuel payments. We want to target winter fuel payments to those on the lowest incomes, which is why we are linking the payment to eligibility for pension credit and other qualifying income-related benefits and tax credits. That is the right approach to help those on the lowest incomes. We are determined to make it as effective as possible by making sure that people who are eligible for pension credit make a claim.
Jamie Stone
The point I made to the shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Central Devon (Mel Stride), is a fair one. Distance and remoteness militate against take-up. People living in very remote hamlets in the highlands do not necessarily perceive the Department that they should. Can I have an undertaking from the Minister that the Government will look at this issue?
James Murray
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comment, and I know that my colleagues are aware of this issue. In fact, it is one reason why the automatic payment of pension credit and other benefits is so important. For instance, the merging of housing benefit and pension credit would help to overcome some of the problems. It would help some of the people in the situation he describes. That merger of housing benefit and pension credit was first mooted in 2012, and was delayed several times by the previous Government—I think they intended to leave it until 2028. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is looking at that as a matter of great priority, to ensure that people get the help that they deserve.
Several hon. Members rose—
James Murray
I am going to make some progress.
The important point to focus on in this debate is making sure that everyone eligible for pension credit takes up that offer, not only so they receive the benefit of pension credit, but so that we can better target the winter fuel payments, given the financial inheritance that we have. We estimate that 880,000 pensioners are missing out on pension credit to which they are entitled, and frankly the Conservatives failed to act on that for years. That is why it is so important that we are now conducting a campaign to make sure that as many people as possible make a claim.
Our approach is already showing signs of success. The Government have received around 38,500 pension credit claims in the five weeks since the announcement on 29 July. That is more than double the number in the previous five weeks, and we will continue to do all we can to encourage pensioners who are eligible to apply for pension credit. We have used a wide range of media to reach pensioners and key stakeholders, and have been working with voluntary organisations such as Age UK and Citizens Advice, local authorities and the devolved Governments to raise awareness through their networks and channels. The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is taking the further unprecedented step of writing to 120,000 pensioner households who are in receipt of housing benefit but who are not yet claiming the pension credit that they are likely to be entitled to.
Our national pension credit campaign will run right through until the application deadline on 21 December.
Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)
On 11 February 2021, the temperature in Braemar in my constituency sank to minus 23°. Some 17,000 pensioners there will lose their winter fuel allowance through a decision taken by this Labour Government. Can the Minister explain to those pensioners in one of the coldest constituencies in the country why they have to surrender that important support at the same time as the Government have found £11 billion to give pay rises to their union paymasters?
James Murray
I would be interested to understand why the hon. Gentleman is backing a candidate to lead his party who supports the means-testing of the winter fuel payment. He might want to have a conversation with that candidate before he starts criticising our approach of targeting support at those in greatest need. The critical point is that the combination of the state pension rising under the triple lock with those in greatest need getting winter fuel payments alongside pension credit, not to mention the extension of the household support fund, means that the right measures are in place to give all pensioners the support they need.
Opposition Members want to know why the legislation is being progressed urgently. I will be really clear: it is urgent because we need to deal urgently with the £22 billion black hole—the huge in-year spending pressure—that we inherited from the Government that they ran. It is crucial that we act quickly to restore responsibility to our public finances and stability to our economy. On top of that, it was important that we made sure that regulations were in place at the start of the qualifying week for winter fuel payments, while wasting no time in doing all we can to raise pension credit take-up.
Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)
We have heard that the Transport Minister yesterday could give no assurance to pensioners about their transport concessions. Last week, I asked the Deputy Prime Minister about the single person council tax discount. There is a very real prospect that pensioners could lose even more than £300—another £300 or £400. Will the Exchequer Secretary take this opportunity to reassure pensioners that there is no way that the Government will remove the single person discount from the council tax? It would be politically good for him and the Labour party, and it would be enormously important for people who need to hear some reassurance at this time.
James Murray
The right hon. Gentleman will not be surprised to hear me say that the Chancellor will take all decisions in the Budget. However, he might like to reflect on the record of his party in office on encouraging take-up of pension credit. We have been painfully aware since taking office how little the Conservatives did to increase take-up of pension credit during their 14 years in office. That is why it is so urgent for us to make progress in getting those eligible to sign up for pension credit. By doing so, they will get pension credit, which they may have been missing out on for years under the Conservatives, and they will continue to receive the winter fuel payment.
Pensioners may well be angry at the Conservatives for how little they did to get people to sign up for pension credit while they were in office. Pensioners may well be angry at the Conservatives for leaving the country with a legacy of a £22 billion black hole in the public finances.
We on the Government Benches are committed to protecting the triple lock. That will mean that pensioners on the full new state pension, who have received an extra £900 this year, will, pending the uprating review by the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions this autumn, receive a boost that could be worth well more than £400, so by the end of this Parliament they could be receiving around £1,700 more than they do today.
Conservative Members are keen to play politics with the tough decisions that this Government are taking. They are desperate to take attention away from the fact that, as people across this country know, it is the Conservatives who are to blame for the economic mess we have gained. They created a mess and now they want to criticise us for cleaning it up. If they had governed more responsibly, they might not have been sitting on the Opposition Benches, in opposition to a Government who are fixing the foundations they left to rot.
Andrew Pakes (Peterborough) (Lab)
Does the Minister agree that the only shameful thing in this debate is the legacy that the Government were left? It forced the new Government—[Interruption.] The reality that 800,000 pensioners are not receiving pension credit is a shameful legacy. If Conservative Members wanted to show humility and learn from their party’s record in government, they would acknowledge that they are the ones who crashed the economy, left the NHS in a way that pensioners cannot get to see a doctor, and broke NHS dentistry. Does the Minister agree that it is our job to fix the economy so that we can keep on helping pensioners?
James Murray
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Frankly, it is time for Conservative Members to recognise and accept what they have done to this country, and to show some contrition and accept responsibility. However, no matter what the Conservatives choose to do, we are getting on with the tough decisions that are necessary in government. By changing the winter fuel payment and making it means-tested, we are beginning to take the necessary steps to address the black hole they created, while protecting the most vulnerable in society.
The Prime Minister has said that we must be prepared to be unpopular if we are to govern responsibly, which means facing up to tough challenges and tackling them head-on. The motion laid by the Opposition sets out several “regrets”, but they have never once shown regret for all the reckless decisions they took and the damage they did to our public services, public finances and economy. Our task now in government is to fix the mess they made and to give our country the chance of the better future we deserve.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
I call the spokesperson for the Liberal Democrat party.
Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD)
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Liberal Democrats welcome the opportunity for this debate. We will continue to call on the Government to change course on their planned cut to winter fuel payments. We know the Government have inherited a mess, and we know that at the core of that mess is a legacy of reckless economic mismanagement by the previous Conservative Government.
However, that cannot be allowed to serve as a cover for measures that cause suffering for the most vulnerable in our society. Earlier this afternoon, Liberal Democrats supported the prayer motion to annul the social fund winter fuel payment regulation. Stripping support from many of the poorest pensioners, just when energy bills are set to rise again this winter, is the wrong thing to do, and we have tabled our own early-day motion to reject these plans. It should be noted that the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee in the other place has said that it is
“unconvinced by the reasons given for the urgency attached to laying these Regulations and particularly concerned that this precludes appropriate scrutiny”.
We are supportive of this motion and particularly of the point that there should have been greater scrutiny of the Government’s decision to cut winter fuel payments.
It is well established that there are strong links between living in a cold home and an increase in the risk of serious illness for vulnerable people and those with disabilities.
Sorcha Eastwood (Lagan Valley) (Alliance)
I am extremely disappointed by the lack of creativity in this Government. I agree entirely with the hon. Lady that there is a legacy of unfunded promises, but it is not for my constituents in Lagan Valley to bear the burden. Does she agree that they do not have broad shoulders?
Sarah Olney
I thank the hon. Member for her intervention and for stating so passionately the case that we on the Liberal Democrat Benches are making in this debate. The Government should have done far more to understand the likely consequences of restricting eligibility for the winter fuel payment, and how that would translate into increased burdens on the national health service.
I and my Liberal Democrat colleagues have listened to our constituents and heard from countless pensioners who are worried about how they will afford their energy bills this winter. Since these cuts have been announced, I have been inundated with local people expressing their disappointment at this decision. That is why the Liberal Democrats have tabled early-day motion 121, calling on the Government to withdraw these plans, and it is why we voted in favour of the prayer motion earlier today. We believe that it is simply wrong to remove winter fuel payments from millions of struggling pensioners.
Dr Kieran Mullan (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)
I recognise the comments that the hon. Member has made about the economic inheritance, but does she not agree that, compared with the situation that we managed in coalition with the Liberal Democrats in 2010, the Labour Government are in a better position? They have unemployment lower than we inherited, employment higher than we inherited, the deficit lower than we inherited, and economic growth faster than we inherited. We, in partnership with the Liberal Democrats, managed to keep winter fuel payments in those circumstances. Does she not agree that Labour should do the same?
Sarah Olney
I thank the hon. Member for his intervention, but it is important to reflect on the disastrous legacy of the mini-Budget and the circumstances that many people continue to struggle with thanks to higher interest rates on their mortgage payments. Certainly, from the perspective of my constituents, that casts a much longer shadow, which the winter fuel payment cuts will do nothing to ameliorate.
Last week, I asked the Chancellor if she would give her full support to measures to boost the uptake of pension credit. I welcomed her commitment to work with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to maximise the take-up of pension credit by bringing forward the administration of housing benefit and pension credit—
Bobby Dean (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
We have spoken a lot about the take-up of pension credit in this debate already, but it is important to say that 800,000 pensioners—I think that is what the Minister said—are still not taking it up. Those people will, by definition, be harder to reach and the most vulnerable. I do not understand how the Government can, in good conscience, take away this guaranteed benefit at a time where there is no certainty whatsoever about their being able to get the other people signed up to pension credit in time.
Sarah Olney
I welcome my hon. Friend’s intervention. He makes an important point, although I would say that I welcomed the Chancellor’s commitment last week to work with older people’s charities and local authorities to raise awareness of pension credit. None the less, he is exactly right that many people will have this benefit taken away without knowing that there is pension credit for which they are eligible and should claim.
As the Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee has highlighted, the DWP has assumed that the uptake of pension credit will increase by just five percentage points, and that will still exclude around 700,000 pensioners. Have the Government made a proper assessment of what the impact will be if uptake of pension credits increases by more than that amount? I continue to call for assurance that the Government will ensure that all those eligible for pension credit claim both the benefit itself and the winter fuel payment.
We will be voting against the scrapping of this stream of support for pensioners. Although we recognise that the Government face difficult choices given the appalling mess left by the Conservative party, the Liberal Democrats will continue to advocate for the necessity of winter fuel payments. The mismanagement of our economy by the outgoing Conservative Government has left formidable challenges and we understand that undoing that damage will not be easy.
Seamus Logan (Aberdeenshire North and Moray East) (SNP)
Whatever fiscal pressures are being addressed here today, we have heard about the additional deaths that could possibly result from this measure. Does the hon. Member share my disgust at some Members celebrating the result of the previous vote as if it were a football match?
Sarah Olney
I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. I am afraid that I cannot comment because I did not see that, but I thank him for raising it.
It is not right for the consequences of the decisions of the outgoing Conservative Government and this burden to be carried by some of the most vulnerable in our society. Those with the broadest shoulders should carry a heavier burden. Liberal Democrats have set out detailed proposals to tackle fuel poverty and we are calling on the Government to look at them very seriously. That includes steps such as: launching an emergency home energy upgrade programme, with free insulation and heat pumps for low-income households; introducing a social tariff for the most vulnerable to provide targeted energy discounts for vulnerable households; and implementing a proper windfall tax on the super-profits of oil and gas producers and traders, to raise vital revenue. We have also called on the Government to tackle the wider cost of living crisis, including by investing an extra £1 billion a year in our farmers to bring down food prices, increasing the carer’s allowance and expanding it to more carers, and removing the two-child limit and the benefit cap.
More than 2 million pensioners are currently living in poverty. They have had a tremendously difficult time during the cost of living crisis, dealing with record high energy bills and eye-watering food costs. That is why the Liberal Democrats are proud to have introduced the triple lock when we were in government, lifting countless vulnerable pensioners out of poverty, and why we are strongly committed to ensuring it remains in place. Pensioners deserve to have the support and the security of knowing that the triple lock will be there in the long term.
We acknowledge the dire economic situation the new Government have inherited, yet we have heard warning calls from sector representatives, including Age UK, Disability Rights UK and many pensioners themselves, regarding the damage that this cut might cause. As the Government try to clear up the Conservative party’s mess, they must ensure that that does not come at the expense of pensioners and families who will struggle to heat their homes this winter.
Stuart Anderson (South Shropshire) (Con)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker, you will know the rules far better than me, but this is a really important debate and I just want to ensure that the House is quorate. Can you tell me how many people have to be on the Government Benches for a debate? There are fewer than 20 Labour MPs who have decided to find this a worthwhile debate to come to, and I want to make sure we have enough people here for this debate, because it is really serious.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
As the hon. Gentleman will know, the House is not counted, and the matter of quorum is not a relevant consideration at this time and therefore we shall move on.
Peter Swallow (Bracknell) (Lab)
I was proud to be elected on a manifesto that committed to delivering economic stability, security and growth. After 14 years of Tory recklessness with our economy and after the disastrous Liz Truss mini-Budget drove up inflation, food bills and mortgage repayments and pushed my constituents to the brink, the public voted for change. That change must start with getting our economy back on its feet.
When the previous Labour Government left office, Trussell Trust food banks were giving out 40,000 food parcels a year. Last year they gave out 3 million. When we on the Labour side of the House talk about the recklessness of the previous Government, it is not academic. We are talking about taxpayers’ money being poured into ideological gimmicks while children are going to school hungry, working adults are one rent rise away from homelessness and a broken NHS is stalling productivity and failing those who most rely on public services, including our pensioners. We face a £22 billion black hole in the public finances that they covered up and walked away from.
Stability means bringing the economy and the country back from the brink to which the Conservative party knowingly pushed it. No one doubts that this policy is tough, and it is not a measure we want to take, but we have been left a huge bill to pay. Means-testing the winter fuel allowance will allow us to support those pensioners most in need as we take the difficult steps we have to take to right the ship.
Members across this House know that in our communities there are too many pensioners struggling. That is why I welcome this Government’s commitment to the triple lock, under which the state pension has risen by £900 this year and will rise by more than £450 in April. I also support the extension of the warm home discount, worth £150 for more than 1 million low-wage pensioners.
Graham Stuart
The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the Tory triple lock was introduced by the Tories, precisely in order to deal with the legacy left by the previous Labour Government when, unless I have got this number wrong, there was a lower take-up of pension credit than there is today—we raised that. The triple lock raised pensioner incomes, and the first act of the Labour Government, of whom he is clearly aiming to be a loyal member, is to take £300 away from people who really need it.
Peter Swallow
Three million food parcels were distributed last year. That is the legacy of the Conservative Government. And the triple lock that the Conservatives purport to defend? They broke it in 2022.
I also support the extension of the household support fund to help the families most in need this winter, as well as the Government’s commitment to introducing tougher regulation to the energy market, which has let customers down for too long. I am working hard with Bracknell Forest council to ensure that pensioners in the Bracknell constituency who are in need but not claiming the support to which they are entitled are identified and encouraged to get help. I urge any pensioner who is concerned about their finances to go to Age UK’s benefits calculator to see what support they may be entitled to.
Dr Ben Spencer (Runnymede and Weybridge) (Con)
What did the hon. Gentleman say to pensioners during the election campaign?
Peter Swallow
I said that the Labour party would restore the broken economy inherited from the Conservative party.
In the long term, there is only one permanent solution to ending fuel poverty: we must end our dependence on volatile foreign energy markets and deliver lasting energy security. The Conservative party failed to do that in Government, leaving energy bills higher for every household, including those most in need. That is why this Government’s plan to create GB Energy, a new national energy company, is vital. It will bring energy supply back into the hands of the British public and help to get prices back under control. That is the long-term solution to fuel poverty: home-grown, British-controlled power.
Dr Caroline Johnson
Roughly 13,000 people in the hon. Gentleman’s Bracknell constituency will not get the winter fuel allowance this year as a result of the changes that he has just voted for. How many of them does he estimate will struggle to pay their bills?
Peter Swallow
I have already set out the support that I want to see, as well as the support that the Government have put in place to help pensioners in my constituency and to bring energy bills down in the long term, which will help all households in Bracknell and across the country. That is a really important first step on the road to growth. Because of the triple lock, a growing economy means growing pensions and growing support for pensioners in need.
Future prosperity does not fall out of the sky. We have to create the conditions for it, and those conditions are sensible spending, bringing debt under control, and encouraging investment. To do those things, we must dig ourselves out of this financial hole, and that means tough choices. This policy is a difficult step—a step that I did not want to take—but it is a step away from the brink towards stability, security and growth. That is why I back it.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
Order. I have no choice but to put a three-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches before I hand over to the next speaker, which I am very sorry to do. Members will be aware that more than 40 of you wish to take part. I call Priti Patel.
Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)
Who would have thought that one of the first acts of this awful, cruel and ideological Labour Government would be to assault the nation’s pensioners by removing winter fuel payments? Let us be candid: the nation’s pensioners are falling victim to an ideological decision—a betrayal by Labour as it succumbs to shovelling gross amounts of public spending into the pockets of many of its union paymasters.
It is quite interesting—[Interruption.] No. I have a time limit; the hon. Member has already spoken. It is interesting that there has been so little transparency around finances and the fiscal choices that the Government have chosen to make. There has been no impact assessment, no honesty around the cost of all this to the Exchequer in the long run, and nothing about the administration of the household support fund. How have Labour Ministers made the spurious claim that they have had no choice in this decision? Bear in mind that the Government—so desperate are they to justify this brutal cut—claimed a couple of weeks ago that there would be a “run on the pound” without the decision, which is just extraordinary and speaks to their fiscal ineptitude.
I have a series of questions on the mitigations. First, it is right to encourage more pensioners to take up pension credit where they are entitled to it. I know from my time at the Department for Work and Pensions that many on the Conservative Benches have spent years encouraging pensioners to take up pension credit. We should know how the targeting will work and what the cost will be.
Secondly, in recent days the Government have been spinning, yet again, that those affected by the loss of the winter fuel payment will benefit from an estimated £400 rise in the state pension. Will the Minister confirm what the net real-terms impact will be on overall household incomes for those who are losing the benefit, and will he confirm how it will add up over time and what the actual cost will be?
Thirdly, concerns have been raised throughout the day that if pensioners cannot afford to heat their homes there will be a serious impact on health. We do not have an impact assessment, so can we have some honesty now? What are the costs to the NHS? The Government owe it to the British people to be honest about this. We have heard that the household support fund will be extended, but how exactly will that £500 million be funded? Who will pay for it?
Finally, there are so many unanswered questions. The Government must be honest and answer them. There has been a lack of transparency, with no impact assessment whatsoever. It is right that we hold the Government to account and that they are honest with British pensioners about their intentions, even on the future of the triple lock.
Josh Simons (Makerfield) (Lab)
I am glad that we are having this debate. Perhaps the Opposition and parts of the media are bored facing something that they have not seen for years—Government Benches packed full of Members representing all parts of the United Kingdom who respect each other and support the Government—because they have stoked a frenzy that I fear is at risk of obscuring the most important arguments for the changes that we are debating.
Yes, there is the economic argument, which matters. As the Office for Budget Responsibility and Institute for Fiscal Studies have recognised, this Government inherited public finances in a shocking state, in
“one of the largest in-year overspends outside of the pandemic”
in history—or, as one Member put it earlier, an “accounting error”. Unlike the rapid succession of Conservative Chancellors, our Chancellor has levelled with the British people and been transparent about the nation’s finances. Restoring stability means hard choices. This is not the first, and it will not be the last.
However, it is not the economic case that I wish to emphasise today, but the principled one. Let me make a general point about the arguments we make in politics. Sometimes we politicians can be too quick to hold up our hands and say that we have no choice—the lawyers required this or the economists required that. That can leave voters frustrated: “Why vote if the people we vote for are not in charge, but lawyers or economists are? Can the people we elect not control the things that affect our lives?” To restore trust in politics, we must show that politics matters. That is why it is important that we articulate what we do in terms of principles and choices.
To govern is to choose. Targeting winter fuel payments is a choice. However difficult and necessary, it is the right choice for two principled reasons. The first is about the moral purpose of the policy. Gordon Brown designed the winter fuel payment to ensure that nobody was at home cold because they could not afford to turn on their heating. It was a time when state pension rises were miserly and, as many found, insufficient to heat their homes. But let me note that pensioners were better off after the last Labour Government. One million were lifted out of poverty by 2004. The changes we are debating today do not move from that position. In a time when the state pension has risen by £900, and will rise again by as much as £400, the changes target the winter fuel payment based on the principle of need. That is the right principle.
Let me be clear: I do not believe that taxpayers—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
Order. There is a three-minute time limit.
Sir Roger Gale (Herne Bay and Sandwich) (Con)
My wife, Suzy, is over retirement age. She is also in full-time employment. I am over retirement age. I am also in full-time employment and a higher rate taxpayer. I have always believed that the winter fuel allowance should be means-tested, because while we give it to charity, there are other, perhaps younger people—such as the young and disabled, who cannot run around and keep warm—who could use the money. I have believed that for probably as long as the now Chancellor of the Exchequer has believed it.
Let us be clear: this has nothing to do with black holes in the economy, which Laura Kuenssberg identified while interviewing the Prime Minister on Sunday as being largely contributed to by inflationary pay increases for the unions—for railway workers and junior doctors. This is a policy dreamed up in 2014 by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer—that is on the record. It is a policy made in No. 11 Downing Street and endorsed by the nation’s undertaker in No. 10. It is cruel, it is heartless, and it is going to lead to deaths this winter, so while I believe that there should be a means test, the manner in which the Government are going about it is profoundly wrong and deeply flawed and will cause untold-of hardship. It has got to change.
Stuart Anderson
My right hon. Friend is giving a moving and compassionate speech. Will he tell us where, specifically, the responsibility for this cruel policy lies?
Sir Roger Gale
I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s question, because it does not lie with the hon. Member for Ealing North (James Murray). It lies with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and with the Prime Minister, both of whom should be on the Government Front Bench this afternoon, but neither of whom have been present during the debates—although the Chancellor did come in to vote, and then nipped out again. That in itself is shameful. I abhor the fact that there are politicians sitting on the Labour Benches who are quite prepared to fight to the last drop of somebody else’s political blood, because that is what is happening this afternoon.
Rachel Taylor (North Warwickshire and Bedworth) (Lab)
You say that our Chancellor and the Prime Minister are not here on the Government Benches, but where are your leader and your shadow Chancellor? They are not here either. You talk about means-testing being right: we have a difficult financial situation and difficult decisions that we have to take, so the right hon. Gentleman seems to agree with us on that.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
Order. I appreciate that passions are running high this afternoon, and that there are many new Members in the House, but when we use “you” and “your”, we are referring to the Chair. There are good reasons for why we direct debate through the Chair. Please can Members remember that?
Sir Roger Gale
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker—I stand chastised. The Leader of the Opposition was in the Chamber earlier this afternoon, but I saw no sign whatsoever of the Prime Minister. However, the answer to the hon. Lady remains the same: the responsibility for this policy lies directly with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister, and they are going to live to regret it.
Mr Gideon Amos (Taunton and Wellington) (LD)
The right hon. Gentleman has expressed the principle that means-testing could be accommodated. Does he agree that many of those who have written to us as Members of Parliament also sympathise with the principle that means-testing could and should come in at some point in the future? The manner in which this proposal is being brought in, before the 880,000 pensioners who are eligible for pension credit are registered for it, is the problem that particularly affects the 21,000 pensioners in Taunton and Wellington.
Sir Roger Gale
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I have made the point, and will make it again, that I have no quarrel with the principle. I have a huge quarrel with the manner in which this policy is being implemented, because it is cruel and heartless. It is going to leave thousands, if not millions, of pensioners literally out—or more probably in—in the cold this winter, and some of them will die as a result. It is not necessary, it does not have to be done, and it will not save money, so there has to be a rethink.
Just to conclude, I detect a degree of arrogance on the Government Benches this afternoon. The fact that there are only about 30 Members on those Benches speaks volumes to those outside who thought that Members were going to come and hear this matter being seriously debated. There seems to be a belief that the next election is five years away. The next general election may be five years away, but the next election is next May, and those voting in the county council elections in May—those pensioners and their families—will not forget this.
Sam Rushworth (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
I have not written a speech—I have written down a few points—because, like many colleagues, I have spent the past week agonising over how to vote today. In the end, I decided to vote with my conscience, which meant that I voted with the Government. [Interruption.] Conservative Members laugh, but I will tell them why.
Today I listened sincerely to contributions from Conservative Members, and this is what I have learned. First, there were several interventions in which they criticised the Government’s efforts to improve the take-up of pension credit. [Interruption.] Well, they did—Members can go and read Hansard if they want to dispute that. There have been several criticisms of that, almost to the point that, when they talk about who is vulnerable, I wonder whether they have a blind spot for some of our most vulnerable constituents.
Secondly, I have learned about Conservative Members’ disdain for hard-working people, because we have learned that, in their spending plans, they intended to reject the pay recommendations of their own pay body.
Harriet Cross (Gordon and Buchan) (Con)
Does the hon. Member appreciate that some of the hardest working people are the pensioners we are now standing up for, and who we are trying to stop freezing in the winter to come and those ahead?
Sam Rushworth
I absolutely do, and Members may recall that I came to this House last week and asked the Chancellor a question about my own constituents. I represent the snowiest and coldest constituency in England, and I have had deep concerns about those pensioners. However, I have studied the detail and listened to pensioners in my constituency. In the last week alone, it has turned out that several people who have come forward to me expressing concerns about this policy are people who could be claiming pension credit but are not.
I want to make a broader point about the winter fuel allowance. The winter fuel allowance was introduced under the last Labour Government in 1997, when the state pension was £3,247 a year. If that had increased at the rate of inflation, today it would be £6,200 a year. Thankfully, it is more than twice that. [Hon. Members: “Because of us.”] Conservative Members say that it is because of them, but, again, they may want to look at the record. In fact, under both the previous Labour Government and the previous Conservative Government, the state pension increased at above the rate of inflation, and I absolutely welcome that. The winter fuel allowance, however, has not increased for 20 years. So the winter fuel allowance, in real terms, has become less and less year after year. The point I am making is that we need to consider our people. If the Conservatives’ argument is that, after 14 years in government, people on the full state pension are £100 away from death and destitution, what have they been doing for 14 years?
We need a new settlement for the economy, and this Government are actually answering the concerns of my constituents, who live in cold, stone-built, badly insulated homes, and who lost out when the previous Government chose to cut the funding available to insulate homes. This Government are setting up Great British Energy, which will help to cut bills over the long term. People are poor and struggling to pay their bills not because we do not give away enough taxpayers’ money in small pockets of benefits here and there. What we need are higher wages and better pensions, and I have been convinced by the Chancellor’s arguments that, under this Government, the pension will rise at or above the rate of inflation year on year, while energy bills will fall.
Finally, my constituents would not thank me if I did not take steps to stabilise the economy, because we need to get NHS waiting lists down and we need—
Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)
It is interesting to follow the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Sam Rushworth), and to follow the angst-ridden journey with his conscience to ensure that he could abandon those in most need of their winter fuel allowance in this coming winter. It was good of him to highlight the Tory triple lock, which did take the absolutely woeful state of the pension left by the last Labour Government and transform it into a sounder one today. However, even in these conditions—where, thanks to the Tories, pensioners are much better off than they used to be—there are people, and this came from Labour research a few years ago, who will die, according to that research, if this policy, which he in good conscience thinks he should vote for today, is implemented. That is the truth.
That takes us to one key issue that we have been discussing today, which is process. The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland seems like an honourable and decent man—at least he used the word “conscience” in this debate, rather than purely political theatre. The point is that when something could lead to thousands of people dying, the Government have not done what they are legally obliged to do—they used some rare exemption requirement—and produce an impact assessment. So we do not know. People who in good conscience want to do the right thing, like the hon. Gentleman, do not know what the impact is. If it was in front of us, and if it validated the Labour party’s previous analysis, and showed that 4,000 people could be going to die, could he really support the measure in good conscience for £1.1 billion when we spend more than £1,200 billion?
The £22 billion black hole is a sort of political theatre from a Government who said they were not going to do politics as theatre and performance, and that they were going to do it properly. In fact, this is a miniscule amount. It is significant, but it is miniscule in the overall scheme of things. A choice has been made and rammed through on a timetable that is not in order and does not follow the normal and proper way of things or allow new Members of Parliament, like the hon. Gentleman, to look at the issue, weigh it up and come to the right conclusion. It is truly shameful. Peter, one of my constituents, is one of 882 people who signed a petition in my constituency against this measure. He and his wife are £12 over the pension credit limit.
Dr Zubir Ahmed (Glasgow South West) (Lab)
The right hon. Gentleman is citing concerns about the safety of vulnerable groups, and I wonder if he might reflect on the past 14 years, and that he enabled a Government that led to the decay and decline of every single public service. When public services decay and decline, that disproportionately affects vulnerable groups.
Graham Stuart
The hon. Gentleman knows full well that that is not true. I used to chair the Education Committee, so I know a little about that, and standards were lifted—[Interruption.] Look at the OECD or the PISA tables. It seems that the new Ministers do not want to take into account the most reputable international measure of educational performance, which showed that we lifted ourselves up massively. The NHS is under enormous tension and in crisis, but compared with five years ago we have 20% more doctors and nurses, if it was purely a budgetary matter. I wish the new Government well in reforming the NHS, but if we want to see what a Labour Government means for the health service, we can find it right now. We just need to travel to Wales, and the hon. Gentleman knows that that is not delivering.
Let me return to Peter and his wife. They are not the only people who are worried about this policy. I spent a little time yesterday reading Labour’s manifesto, as I hope Labour Members may have done, and I was touched by the quote from Gary on page 48:
“I’ve never struggled this much to keep warm. I can only afford to heat one room with a small portable heater. Sometimes I sleep in my armchair to save money…it’s no way to live.”
Surely Labour Members, in good conscience, recognise that he is right: it is no way to live. When 9.7 million people voted Labour, they voted for it on the promise of change. I do not think this is the change that Gary and others were led to believe they would receive.
Chris Murray (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)
I am glad that the right hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Graham Stuart) referred to the change in the Labour manifesto at the last election, because the first line of that manifesto was the promise to bring economic stability to Britain, and that would be a change from the previous Government. We knew that bringing economic stability would involve tough choices, but even at the election we had no idea of the scale of the mess we would find. Means-testing the winter fuel allowance is not an easy decision, but we must look at it in the broader context.
Let me make three points about the situation that pensioners face. First, the pension triple lock is a critical piece of public policy, which makes the state pension genuinely liveable. The triple lock means that pensions increase by £900 in this year alone, and the state pension will increase by over £1,700 over the course of this Parliament. That helps all pensioners. It is absolutely the right decision for the Government to prioritise the pension triple lock, even if that means means-testing the winter fuel allowance.
Secondly, the poorest pensioners will still get the winter fuel allowance. I am reassured by the push to increase the take-up of pension credit.
Several hon. Members rose—
Chris Murray
Sorry, I will not give way, I must make progress. Thirdly, we must look more broadly at all the challenges that older people face. Waiting lists are appallingly long. Older people in my constituency can wait 18 months for a hip replacement; others spend their life savings on private healthcare. I understand that people are concerned, but we do people no favours by pretending that tough choices do not exist. Delaying that decision only leads to tougher, less enviable choices ahead.
Chris Murray
Let me make progress. If the House wants to understand tough choices, look no further than my home of Scotland. Despite having higher public spending and higher taxes than the rest of the UK, our pensioners face the longest waiting lists on record. Today, the SNP will oppose means-testing the winter fuel allowance in Westminster, while bringing in its means-testing in Scotland. That is not to clean up the mess that the Tories left them, but to clean up their own mismanagement of Scottish finances. We can do better.
In taking this step, we must recognise that the country has changed since the winter fuel allowance was introduced. Today, when I look around my constituency, I see that age is no longer the main factor in whether someone can afford to heat their home. It cannot be right that we continue to give the wealthiest pensioners £300 a year. As society changes, we must adjust. We do today’s pensioners a better service by targeting those who need help the most.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I rise to publicly oppose this proposed change. I understand the need to balance the books—we all do, and we know how it works—but to be perfectly frank, and it gives me no joy to say this, I never imagined ever in my life that a Labour Government would seek to balance the books on the backs of pensioners throughout the United Kingdom. I put that on record at the beginning. I say it respectfully, but with great grief.
I fully comprehend that the system could do with an upgrade. Perhaps we should look at a household cap, as we have with the child benefit payment. Perhaps we could look at allocating per household, rather than per person. Perhaps we could look at ensuring that everyone who is still earning more than their pension through employment can have deferred payments until full retirement. Perhaps we could look at an opt-out scheme for pensioners such as me. I do not need the money; I asked not to take the money. I give the money to charity. I am not better than anybody else—never am I better than anybody else—but I realised that I did not need that money, so I gave it away. Others might want to do the same thing.
It should be direct face-to-face applications for pension credit. There should not be a nine-week wait for the application to be processed. My goodness, people need the money now. The threshold should be raised. The Government and the Minister have said about the £440 that is coming next spring, but pensioners need the money this winter and as soon as possible.
In Northern Ireland, 68% of homes rely on oil-fired boilers for heating. There are high levels of fuel poverty, with 22% of the population currently spending more than 10% of their household income on heating their homes. I think about the women who have a tiny workplace pension from the hours they worked while their children were in school. The women of the Women Against State Pension Inequality Campaign have already been disadvantaged and will pay a further price for not being allowed to save for their needs. I am begging this Government on behalf of my constituents in Strangford not to remove the benefit from everyone in one fell swoop.
Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)
National Energy Action estimates that close to 45 people die every winter’s day in the UK due to cold homes. This Government, in their wisdom and through this decision, have decided to imperil many more. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is wrong, it will have an impact and it will cause deaths right across the United Kingdom?
Jim Shannon
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We all recognise that this winter will be one where pensioners will feel the gravity of this and the pain of the cold. I stand for all those who are making do with less than £1,000 a month and those pensioners who will be impacted by the winter fuel allowance being taken away from them. For them, this is a lot of money. It is the difference between being warm this winter or simply surviving. It is not an exaggeration; it is life for my constituents and, respectfully, for the constituents of those on the Government Benches.
I will conclude. The clock for speeches has stopped. I will be respectful of the time, as you would expect, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Those who have worked all their lives deserve to be paid for what they paid in. There is a basic standard, along with women and children go first in the lifeboat: protect those who cannot survive the icy cold. So let us slow down the ship—I look to Labour to make that happen—and veer away from the iceberg, which some Members only see the tip of at the moment, which could be the destruction of the Government before their first journey even begins. Let us correct course and get this right. Let us support the Opposition motion, which reflects the mood and opinion on the Opposition Benches. I hope that the Labour party will realise that it is going the wrong way. We are trying to direct them the right way.
Matthew Patrick (Wirral West) (Lab)
I am grateful to follow the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). I have had a short time in this place, but I already know that he often sits in the Chamber and listens to everyone: to Members across the House. I listened to his points as well and will make these points to him. On this issue, like so many others, when it comes to our economic inheritance—which is a £22 billion in-year black hole—we have to make difficult decisions. We can choose to ignore the situation we are in and duck those decisions—the well-trodden path that was too often taken by the last Government—but the price of entry to that path is not free. There is a cost. It means accepting a failing economy and failing public services. It tries to shift the problem again and again to future generations. It is an easy path, but not a responsible one.
The alternative is that we govern as we campaigned—not just on economic stability but on credibility and truth in politics—and are honest with people about the mess that we are in and, crucially, about the path that we will take to bring about brighter days: to lower waiting times in our NHS, to get more teachers into our schools and more police on our streets, delivering again for people across the country.
Failure to deliver has become the norm; that must change. If we ignore the problems, we cannot fix them. Since records began, no Government front-loaded spending so much to leave the cupboard so bare for the second half of the year. That was an easy path, but not a responsible one. I believe that Opposition Members know that.
Indeed, there have been calls over the years from Conservative and Liberal Democrat Members to target winter fuel payments to those most in need. The Government are combining responsibility with compassion, and I know—
Wendy Morton (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con)
Madam Deputy Speaker,
“The winter fuel payment gave me peace of mind that I would be able to heat my home and stay warm during the winter”—
not my words, but those of a constituent, and they are typical of the many comments I have received in my inbox and those I have heard when I have been out and about across my constituency.
In my constituency, there are just 2,138 recipients of pension credit, yet an estimated 18,300 pensioners will lose out this winter. This political choice, because that is what it is, means that those very same pensioners—those 18,300—will lose up to £300 of winter fuel payment; in addition, the energy price cap rise of 10% puts further financial pressure on them of about £149. It impacts pensioners earning as little as £13,000 a year. Contrast that with the inflation-busting pay rises that the Government have handed out. Contrast that with the billions that the Government are spending on GB Energy, a state-run company that will not produce any energy, nor will it cut their bills. What is more, when the vast majority of my pensioners, who are waiting for their annual increase of £460 next year—thanks to our work when we were in government—deduct £300 for losing the winter fuel payment, they will be left with an increase equivalent to just 44p a day: less than the cost of a pint of milk.
Dr Caroline Johnson
I wonder how many of my right hon. Friend’s constituents who will lose that vital payment earn less than the train drivers who have had all that extra money.
Wendy Morton
My hon. Friend makes an important point. It comes back to how this is about political choice, and I am here to stand up for my pensioners in my constituency.
I also point out that it was the Conservative party in government that drove up pension credit applications by 73% in just 12 months. It is important that we do not forget that. Pension credit take-up is often an entrenched issue. People in my constituency are often too proud to apply. The process is too complicated: 22 pages, 243 questions and, as we have heard, nine weeks to determine the outcome of the application.
Tackling pension credit take-up is important, but it is not the solution to the crisis that pensioners face today. Only weeks ahead of the winter, they need help now. According to Age UK, across the UK, around 2 million pensioners who badly need the money to stay warm this winter will now not receive it. Losing the winter fuel payment will make it significantly harder for them to keep warm, which undermines their health and wellbeing. As we have heard, pensioners often have serious health conditions and disabilities. Often, they live in older properties, and in the north or in my constituency in the west midlands it is often colder than in other parts of the country. Pensioners are all disproportionately affected, yet there is no sign of an impact assessment, just a Chancellor who, seemingly, storms ahead with her political decision.
Patrick Spencer (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend give way?
Wendy Morton
I will continue because I am conscious that others want to get the chance to speak.
There is no time for older people on low incomes to set aside money—if they have it—to help them get through the winter. Being at home in the cold increases the risk of raised blood pressure, stroke, heart attacks and hypothermia. I did not vote for this callous cut earlier today. I will not pick the pockets of those who have worked hard all their lives, doing the right thing by their families and this country. I will continue to speak up for my constituents, who deserve better than this. This is so wrong.
Laurence Turner (Birmingham Northfield) (Lab)
I associate myself with the comments of Labour colleagues in this debate, but I want to speak about the particular issue of public sector pay and the attempts made in this debate and the preceding one to turn pensioners and public sector workers against each other, including the public sector workers who have been driven to rely on food banks and payday loans, who I was proud to represent as a trade union official. The 6,000 public sector workers in my constituency must wonder what the Opposition have against them in this debate.
A strong economy needs strong public services, but the problem for the last Government—and the public sector workers who worked for them—was that their public finance strategy rested on
“imposing the biggest real wage cuts in living memory.”
Those are not my words but those of the former permanent secretary to the Treasury, Nicholas Macpherson. The consequences for the services that we all depend on are clear: teaching vacancies have doubled over the past three years, there is an 8% vacancy rate in the NHS and one in 10 999 call handler posts is vacant. We all know the consequences of ambulance delays for pensioners and of cancelled operations and appointments. [Interruption.] Does the right hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Holden) wish to make an intervention?
Mr Richard Holden (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
Thank you, that is kind. In Basildon and Billericay, 15,000 pensioners will lose out because of this callous cut by the Labour Government. The hon. Member pointed out the impact on public services, but how many more hospital admissions will we have, and how many more people will need operations because of his party’s cut? Will we be unable to find out, because his party will not even put forward an impact assessment so that we can know who is affected?
Laurence Turner
We will take no lectures on hospital admissions, given the state of the NHS that the right hon. Member’s party left us.
The Conservatives claimed that they did not know what the pay review body recommendations would be, but the School Teachers’ Review Body recommendations were known to Ministers before July. They will know also that the different PRBs tend to make similar recommendations. Why were most of those recommendations not submitted in good time? Because Ministers were late in submitting their evidence, pushing the timetable until after the election. The Office of Manpower Economics has said:
“The work of the PRBs is demand led and essentially non-negotiable—departments set the remits and timetables.”
Shadow Ministers talked about productivity gains, but when it came to NHS negotiations under the last Government, productivity was just a slogan. The cupboard was bare. They had nothing to actually ask for.
Dr Caroline Johnson
The hon. Gentleman is making a case comparing the salaries of working individuals with the pensions of the elderly. Could he tell me how many of the people who will lose the winter fuel allowance in his constituency earn or receive less than the minimum wage?
Laurence Turner
In my constituency, there are approximately 2,600 pensioner households that do not receive pension credit—that is one of the legacies of the previous Government—but are entitled to it.
The Conservatives suggest that they would have rejected the pay review body recommendations, forgetting that one of the first acts of the Margaret Thatcher Government in 1979 was to accept the recommendations of the Clegg commission on pay comparability. If only the Conservative party had more courage today.
The winter fuel allowance exists because of a Labour Government: a Government who increased the value of those payments fivefold in 13 years, compared with an increase of zero under 14 years of the previous Government—a real-terms cut of 33%.
Mark Ferguson (Gateshead Central and Whickham) (Lab)
It is fascinating to hear the recent converts to the fight against poverty on the Opposition Benches, particularly the right hon. Member for North West Durham—sorry, Basildon and Billericay (Mr Holden)—yet they seem far quieter about the fact that the average food shop went up by £1,000 in the last Parliament, the average energy bill went up £400—[Interruption.] Listen and you might learn something. The average mortgage went up £2,880 because of your lot. [Interruption.] Apologies, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Dr Luke Evans (Hinckley and Bosworth) (Con)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I seek your guidance. I was under the impression that in the Chamber we should refer to Members, Friends or even the constituency. Is that correct?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
The hon. Member is absolutely correct. May I just helpfully point out to all hon. and right hon. Members that, in seeking to make repeated interventions, they are actually cutting into each other’s time? I have made the point previously about the correct way to address each other, through me as Deputy Speaker. Interventions need to be a great deal shorter because they are just cutting into the time for the debate and there are an awful lot of Members who wish to contribute.
Nick Timothy (West Suffolk) (Con)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like advice from the Chair, please. Reportedly, more than 200 Labour MPs received more than £2 million in donations before the election from the trade unions. Before other Members give speeches about issues such as public sector pay, would it not be in order for them to declare that interest at the beginning of their speeches?
Madam Deputy Speaker
As the hon. Member will know, it is for individual Members to declare their interests, if one is applicable.
Laurence Turner
I declared my background in the trade union movement, and I note that the hon. Member for West Suffolk (Nick Timothy) wrote the manifesto, which he stood on, that proposed cutting the winter fuel allowance.
Now that the winter fuel allowance is to be means-tested, we must boost the uptake of pension credit. I welcome the measures Ministers have announced today, so that the allowance can be protected for the very poorest pensioners.
Mike Wood (Kingswinford and South Staffordshire) (Con)
The Government’s choice to remove the winter fuel payment from 21,365 of my constituents is cruel. The payments have been a lifeline for so many pensioners, helping them to stay warm during the harsh winter months. Most pensioners live on fixed incomes, so having almost no notice—no time to prepare—means that the impact of this loss of income on many pensioner households will be that it is increasingly difficult for them to afford basic necessities.
A number of Labour Members have talked about difficult choices, but the reality is that the Government have run away from difficult choices. They have ducked the difficult choices. The difficult choice would have been to be upfront with voters during the election campaign, to explain why they felt this was necessary, appropriate and, as some have said, morally right, and to trust voters to decide whether to give them that mandate. Instead, they ran away. There are difficult choices, but unfortunately the difficult choices are the ones that they have left our constituents to face.
Mr Peter Bedford (Mid Leicestershire) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that this choice sets a dangerous precedent? Free bus passes, prescription charges and, indeed, access to healthcare itself are all now at risk because of the logic being put forward by the Labour party in respect of pensioners’ ability to afford them.
Mike Wood
My hon. Friend is clearly correct. Many people, but particularly pensioners, will be worried about what this Chancellor will take away from them next. Without these payments, many will be forced to choose between heating their homes and other essential expenses such as food or medication—people such as my constituent Linda, who wrote to me:
“My husband has several medical issues this year and I am very worried about the heating situation…I think it is likely that we will cut back on nourishing food.
I cannot believe that a British Government would penalize our generation like this.”
Another constituent, Dawn, wrote:
“Now I fear the winter months, and afraid…of hypothermia.
I personally am just above the threshold to qualify for pension credits. I am a single person claiming state pension and also have a small NHS pension…I can foresee me not using my central heating this winter.”
Those are difficult choices that this Chancellor and this Government have forced on too many of our pensioners, and they are choices that no one should have to make, and particularly not those who have contributed so much to our society.
Joe Morris (Hexham) (Lab)
The Government the hon. Gentleman supported were responsible for driving living standards down, in the first Parliament on record in which that happened. Does he not agree that it is traditionally bad form for the arsonist to start criticising the fire brigade?
Mike Wood
I think that the hon. Gentleman has a huge amount of cheek. He should consider first the inheritance of that previous Conservative Government: the present candidate for the chairmanship of the Business and Trade Committee had written that there was no money left. He should also bear in mind that what we saw during those 14 years was not only restoration in the economy but a huge growth in pensioner income, and what we see now is the fastest growth in the G7, unemployment at record low levels, and inflation also back at low levels.
The Chancellor wants us to believe that this decision suddenly came to her at some point in the run-up to the King’s Speech, some time after the general election, and that it would not have been possible for her to imagine it before polling day. She claimed in July that it was not a decision that she wanted to make. However, as has already been pointed out, in March 2014 she stood at the Opposition Dispatch Box, barely feet away from where I am now, demanding that winter fuel payments be means-tested. In July she said that it was not a decision that she expected to make, yet, miraculously, this year’s Labour manifesto was the first in almost two decades without that specific commitment to protect winter fuel payments.
This is a decision that had been a decade in the making—a decade in the planning. Labour had a decade in which to prepare and get it right, but we are seeing how poorly thought through it was. We cannot have a Social Security Advisory Committee report, and we cannot have an impact assessment. Labour imagined that it could take the money away from pensioners with no impact on our NHS or on charities. This decision is wrong, and it needs to be reversed.
John Slinger (Rugby) (Lab)
Many Opposition Members have thrown the word “choice” at us. Their party chose empty promises, chose unfunded policies, chose a course that led to the decimation of our public services and to higher mortgage rates and higher bills, and chose to make the former Member of Parliament for South West Norfolk Prime Minister.
We did not want to make this choice, but some choices are thrust upon us. We on the Labour Benches do not duck choices. This Government are choosing long-term economic stability, economic security and growth. This Government are choosing to maintain the triple lock, which will see the state pension rise year on year. This Government are choosing to do all in their power to make sure that hundreds of thousands of pensioners claim pension credit, and they will do a lot more.
Dr Mullan
Does the hon. Member agree that it is deeply disingenuous for him and other Labour Members to talk about the drive to increase the uptake of pension credit? He knows full well that if the Government were able to do that, it would wipe out the saving that they are claiming to make. They do not actually want people to increase their uptake of pension credit, because the Government would not save any money.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
Order. I remind the hon. Member that the word “disingenuous” is almost akin to suggesting that someone is lying. Perhaps he would like to withdraw his remark.
John Slinger
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, and for clarifying his use of language. I can assure him that everyone on the Labour Benches, including my colleagues on the Front Bench, are doing everything they can to make sure that vulnerable pensioners who need pension credit receive it. We say that in good faith, and we mean it.
Gregory Stafford (Farnham and Bordon) (Con)
What does the hon. Member say to the 18,883 pensioners in my constituency who will lose the winter fuel payment? They include Rita, who looks after her husband who has multiple sclerosis. She wrote to me today to say that she has to make the choice this winter between heating their home and paying for essential medication.
John Slinger
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I say to him and his constituents that the Government are making every effort to ensure that vulnerable pensioners and pensioners who need pension credit receive it. We are sticking by the triple lock to make sure that pensioners are better off year on year, and I am glad and proud that we are doing so.
John Slinger
I will make some progress, if I may. I have already taken two interventions.
This Government are choosing to move on from the terrible choices of the previous Government. We are choosing a stable, strong economy that will benefit all of the people of this country—all demographics in all regions, the next generation and definitely pensioners.
Ellie Chowns (North Herefordshire) (Green)
Fuel poverty is an enormous issue in my constituency due to a combination of demographics, geography, the housing stock and, indeed, living standards. I rise to speak on behalf of the many hundreds of my constituents who have written to me to express their deep concern about the Government’s policy. I do not have time to read out extracts from their very moving emails, but I know that Judy, Kenneth, Pat, Tom, Robert and Gwen are all deeply concerned about the impact that it will have. They have reported their health issues, their partners’ disabilities, and the fact that they are just over the limit and will not be able to access the winter fuel payment. That will force them into the classic, depressing choice between heating and eating that this country must avoid.
I have voted against the Government’s policy today for three reasons. First, it is socially regressive and will increase poverty among about 2 million people, nearly 1 million of whom ought to be getting pension credit. The Labour party’s efforts are nowhere near fast enough to avoid increased poverty this winter.
Secondly, the policy is economically innumerate. It will not save the money that the Government argue it will save. There are far better ways to save that money, and to fund the action that is certainly needed to support our public services.
Thirdly, the policy is, frankly, politically inept. I really cannot believe that this Government have spent political capital on making such an unfortunate and unjustifiable political decision.
The winter fuel payment is not, and never was, a perfect policy. I have some sympathy with Members who have spoken today about the inequity of the inclusion error, whereby those who have significant wealth were still receiving the payment, but that has been replaced by a policy with an enormous and dangerous error of exclusion for those 2 million people who will no longer get the support that they need.
Ben Maguire (North Cornwall) (LD)
Of course millionaires do not need the winter fuel payment, but does the hon. Member agree that there must be support for pensioners who really need it, rather than this cruel cliff edge, especially for those living in rural areas such as my constituency who are not connected to the mains gas grid?
Ellie Chowns
I thank the hon. Member for his point. Like him, I live in a rural constituency with many people who are not connected to mains sources of power. This cliff edge is a key problem, and it has been referred to today by Members from across the House.
There must be a better way, and that requires a better sort of politics. I have been in this Chamber today for the entirety of this debate and the one before on the statutory instrument and I have been very disappointed by the tone of some of the comments, the discussion, the debate and the argumentation that I have heard. It is the sort of politics that puts people off what we do here in this Chamber. This is a classic example of how we need to find ways to speak better about such fundamental issues. There must be an option to find some common ground.
In the spirit of constructive criticism and constructive engagement, I urge the Government to stop, to review, to think again and to work out a way of meeting their need to find funding for public services in such a way that it does not place the burden on those not with the broadest shoulders but effectively with the narrowest. We need to find a way of talking not just about how we deal with fuel subsidies but about making sure that every house is warm and well insulated, so that the money is not just going up the chimney, out of the windows and into the pockets of the energy companies. We must invest for the long term so that every home is warm and every pensioner can keep warm.
Dr Neil Hudson (Epping Forest) (Con)
Two months ago, the Labour party was elected promising change and a Government of public service. Although their announcement to cut winter fuel payments is change, I doubt it is one that millions of pensioners up and down the land thought that they would make. In terms of a Government of service, I struggle to think of a greater disservice to millions of pensioners than taking away the winter fuel payment on which they rely. Pensioners who have worked hard all their lives deserve dignity and respect in their retirement, instead of this harsh and ill-judged policy from Labour.
Many of those pensioners will be forced to make a tough decision this winter about whether to have the heating on, as energy prices rise and temperatures drop. The Government have admitted to me in a response to a parliamentary question that, shockingly, they believe that 15,744 of my constituents in Epping Forest will have their winter fuel allowance withdrawn by the Labour Government this winter, among the more than 8.6 million pensioners right across England who will have this lifeline withdrawn. This could have so many implications for the health of older people, who spend more time inside their homes when facing conditions, some of which need social care.
There is a real concern that being cold at home may have a detrimental effect on people’s health, as we have heard from some of our medical colleagues today, resulting in respiratory disease, rising blood pressure, an increased risk of strokes and heart attacks and even hypothermia. It is recommended by the UK Health Security Agency that the temperature should be 21°C in living areas and 18°C in bedrooms, which pensioners are going to struggle with this winter.
Sir Gavin Williamson
In Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge, over 19,600 pensioners are going to lose their winter fuel payments. Of course, so many of them are incredibly proud and do not want to apply for additional benefits, and so many will be just outside of being eligible. The decisions of this Government are condemning them to a cold and incredibly hard winter.
Dr Hudson
My right hon. Friend is exactly right that many people are too proud to claim these benefits, and that many people are just above the cut-off point. These people have been portrayed by some Labour Members as rich and able to deal with it, but that is not the case.
I am proud that our Conservative Government not only provided winter fuel payments, but extensively supported older people and the country through difficult times during the pandemic and the effects of the war in the Ukraine and, very importantly, that they honoured the Conservative triple lock, meaning that pensioners got the pension increases they deserve.
I am also proud that my party is continuing to defend older people, including through the compassionate Conservative motion that triggered this debate and vote, and that I was proud to sign. The economic decisions we make speak volumes about our values as a society and a country. How the Labour Government respond to this debate on winter fuel payments, and how they respond in the upcoming Budget, is their chance to show where their values truly lie. This Government need to confirm that, now and in the upcoming Budget, their need to save money will not come at the expense of older people and the financial support they need.
This Government really need to think again about their move to cut winter fuel payments, for the sake of the millions of older people who need them and for the implications it will have. If Labour chooses to continue with this heartless policy, my constituents and the constituents of Conservative colleagues can be assured that my party and I will continue to stand up for our pensioners and will maintain our call that the winter fuel payment cut be reversed.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
I will reduce the time limit still further, to two minutes, after the next speaker.
Yuan Yang (Earley and Woodley) (Lab)
My volunteers and I have been out speaking to residents across my constituency every weekend since the general election. Like many others, Earley and Woodley is a very diverse constituency with diverse needs. Last weekend we spoke to relatively well-off pensioners who told us that they feel it is right that winter fuel payments be means-tested and that, with their sense of dignity and generosity, they do not need state aid in this respect.
Pensioners in other parts of my constituency are less well off, and I was shocked to find that one in three pensioners in my constituency who are eligible for pension credit, which is roughly 1,000 pensioners—as well as one in three across the UK who are eligible for pension credit, or 880,000—do not claim it.
Over the weekend I held one of my first constituency surgeries at the Whitley community development association café. A staff member told me that they talk to the pensioners who come in about the struggles they face with the cost of living crisis that has unravelled over the last few years. They talk to them about support, but these elderly people respond, “No, I don’t need benefits. I don’t need help.” I recognise that as part of the broader societal stigma around being a recipient of benefits and state aid, which this Government must challenge and defeat.
A compassionate, generous and dignified society recognises when people require help, when people do not require help and when people can help others, and accepts that people sometimes fall on hard times due to an accident, bereavement, illness or other reasons outside their control. For those who need help, it is not undignified to seek it. In fact, it is very important that every pensioner listening to my speech, whether they are in my Earley and Woodley constituency or elsewhere in the UK, knows how to seek help and can seek it if they need it. I am determined that we bring about a dignified and fair means-tested benefit and tax system. Fairness and dignity will keep that system functioning.
Members on both sides of the House have talked about civility. We too often hear about individuals and societal groups being pitted against each other. Pensioners in Earley and Woodley are part of the broader community, and they have children and grandchildren who work in hospitals, who require care, who are supported by teachers, who take buses and trains and, yes, who avail themselves of all the means of support provided to maintain our flourishing and cohesive society. It is unacceptable—
Rebecca Harris (Castle Point) (Con)
About 20,000 pensioners in Castle Point are set to lose their winter fuel payment under this cruel and vindictive policy that the Labour Government have chosen to adopt. Contrary to the accusations from the Government, I have, with the support of former Work and Pensions Ministers, run campaign after campaign to increase the uptake of pension credit. Only 2,076 pensioners receive it in my constituency, despite campaign after campaign and leafletting groups and churches. It is not easy to get people to take it up—some are proud. I have raised my voice with elderly ladies who have said it is charity, and told them, “No, it’s not. It’s not charity—we don’t think you can live without it.” We have tried very hard.
Hundreds of worried constituents have written to me about heating their homes. We have lots of low energy efficiency homes, including one of the biggest park home sites in the country, and I have many park home sites. Fortunately, we managed to find £2.5 million from the previous Government to retrofit some of them, but we still have a lot of people living in fuel-inefficient homes that are hard to retrofit. The worry that this is causing people is the biggest issue I see now, and it shows how out of touch and arrogant the Labour Government are that they do not understand this about pensioners. People who are 75 and on a fixed income may have a little bit of savings or a modest private pension—
Patrick Spencer
I think all hon. Members are very disappointed not to see a proper impact analysis of this decision. Does my hon. Friend agree that the best way to analyse the impact of such a policy is to speak to the people who sent us to this place, as she is saying, and to hear the utter fear and concern they have about its impact?
Rebecca Harris
My hon. Friend is spot on. It is the anxiety that it causes people. They do not know if they will live another 18 months or 25 years. People on fixed incomes, with no ability to raise that income, are very worried about spending money. There is also a large and, sadly, growing cohort of elderly residents who are developing dementia, and one of the early symptoms, often, is financial anxiety, including in people whom we would think of as really quite wealthy. I have known residents who have regressed to thinking that they are still living under rationing because they grew up as a lad in abject poverty, and they will not spend money. Being told, “Here’s £300 for fuel,” makes a world of difference to those people.
I was not a fan of Gordon Brown, who once gave a derisory 75p increase to pensioners, but this policy was a huge success—credit to him. That is why my Government never changed it. For £300 for every pensioner, we give incredible peace of mind that they can put their heating on—
Dr Caroline Johnson
Does my hon. Friend worry, as I do, that some of our constituents will die this year as a result of this policy?
Rebecca Harris
I do not think that I need to worry; I think we know that will happen, because we know about their behaviour and their concerns about putting the heating on, and their lack of understanding of how much every heating bill will cost them. This £300 was psychologically very important to knowing that they could put their heating on to keep them healthy and out of hospital. Of all the tough decisions that we had to consider when we came into office in 2010, when there was no magicked-up, home-made £22 billion black hole excuse—there was a vast deficit and we had to make a lot of tough decisions—we never made this one.
Stuart Anderson (South Shropshire) (Con)
I am sure Labour Members never thought in the general election campaign that they would be giving pensioners the choice between heating and eating. Many Labour Members have not even bothered to turn up for a debate on something so critical for many pensioners across this country. We have talked about choices, and this is all about choices. The Government have made a political choice. Labour Members will all have to make a choice, and face their constituents whether they vote for or against. I urge them not to cut the winter fuel allowance.
Let me go on a journey and set out the narrative. The Government say there is a debt and imagine there is a black hole they have to fill, so let us have a look at the numbers. They say they have to find £22 billion, so let us cut £1.1 billion but in the same breath add £9 billion for the pensions. At the same time, the red herring that is the Great British Energy flop adds another £8.4 billion. That is a decision that the Government have made, but why would the Labour party let numbers get in the way of a good story? The numbers show the Government have no issue making decisions against pensioners.
I am a proud veteran. In November, on Remembrance Day, we ask people to remember those who paid the ultimate sacrifice in the service of their country. I challenge Labour Members to look at pensioners who have served and say, “We will never forget,” because those pensioners have already been forgotten.
Bradley Thomas (Bromsgrove) (Con)
In the spirit of what my hon. Friend describes, I will cite the example of Betty Webb, a constituent of mine who received an MBE for her work as a codebreaker at Bletchley Park. She is 101 years old. She is a widow who lives alone. She is living in fear not just that the Government will take away the winter fuel allowance, but that in future they will snatch away the 25% single person’s discount on council tax. Many other constituents of mine are fearful of the same thing.
Stuart Anderson
My hon. Friend makes a great point. Pensioners, including those who have given a life of service to this country, are living in fear of what is coming next. Almost a third of residents in South Shropshire are pensioners, and they have been writing to me and they are absolutely livid. They feel like they have been led down the garden path—taking away this payment was not what was promised. It is cruel, heartless and callous. This policy needs to change.
The Chancellor has made a rookie error. She has gone into the Treasury and, with everything in front of her, said, “Do this,” and she has removed the personal view. She has made a political decision—[Interruption.] Of course it is a rookie error. This is a massive error. She has listened and removed people from the equation. When people are removed from politics, it is a road to nowhere. Will the Chancellor go and see the Downing Street chief of staff and ask for permission to reverse this proposal?
Rebecca Smith (South West Devon) (Con)
Nearly 22,000 of my constituents will lose their winter fuel payments. Currently, only 1,500 will receive it. That is a massive cliff edge for those 22,000 residents. While many of them may feel that they do not require that payment, as has been mentioned by other hon. Members, the vast majority of those pensioners fall into low and middle-income brackets because things do not have such high financial value in the south-west.
As the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Ben Maguire) alluded to, many properties are off-grid. Members may not have realised that 24% of homes across the south-west do not have gas, which is a much cheaper source of energy. They resort to using oil and logs to heat their homes, with the enormous costs that go with them. That is an additional challenge.
Concerns have been raised about those who are single, those in receipt of the older basic state pension, which is not as high as the new state pension, and those with health conditions. The first resident to contact me was a 74-year-old single man, on an older-style pension, who was just outside the bracket for pension credit or any other form of benefit, who was deeply concerned about this winter.
Joe Robertson (Isle of Wight East) (Con)
My hon. Friend makes a good point about those with health conditions. Does she agree that there is no provision in the proposal for those living with dementia or long-term frailty? Those are not means-tested diseases or conditions, yet the Government have not made any provision or assessment of how those living with dementia will miss out.
Rebecca Smith
I agree. My hon. Friend makes an incredibly important point about those vulnerable older people who live with dementia; many of our constituents will be in that situation.
Why are we not looking at alternative ways to deal with this cliff edge? A couple of years ago, the Conservative party proposed the council tax rebate scheme, which used the council tax system as a mechanism to ensure the most vulnerable received support. Single-person households, those where someone had dementia, or households in receipt of council tax credit because they did not have a particularly high income received a discount through the council tax rebate scheme. That system could be replicated with the winter fuel payment, which would offer an alternative way of avoiding that cliff edge for so many residents.
Finally, I know that health has already been mentioned, but I wish to use this as an opportunity to highlight the fact that so many more elderly people will need hospital care this winter, but that is massively impacted and at risk because the Government will not confirm which of the new hospital programmes are going forward. In particular, the emergency and urgent care centre in Plymouth will be vital to providing the healthcare that our older people will need if they are unable to heat their homes or to look after themselves, and to ensuring that they have all the support they need.
Ann Davies (Caerfyrddin) (PC)
It was only two months ago that Labour won a majority in the general election on a message of change. But in those two months the new Labour UK Government have refused to abolish the cruel two-child benefit cap and now seek to take away winter fuel payments of up to £300 from millions of pensioners across the UK, by limiting it to recipients of pension credit. Well, nothing has changed.
Some 68% of households in Carmarthenshire lived in homes with poor energy efficiency in 2022, and 60.4% of households in my Caerfyrddin seat live off the gas grid, often relying on oil as a heat source. But the price of oil is very volatile, and in winter we can see it going up by 20p or 30p a litre, causing uncertainty for people budgeting over the winter.
Not heating a home can have serious consequences. A cold home brings with it a higher risk of stroke, respiratory infection and falls or other injuries. The End Fuel Poverty Coalition estimated that nearly 5,000 excess winter deaths were caused by living in cold homes during the winter of 2022-23. And many older, vulnerable people have higher energy costs due to health reasons.
It is a shame that the Minister of State for Crime, Policing and Fire misspoke earlier this week, as the consideration of other options, such as a social tariff or different ways of means testing, would be welcomed. As constructive criticism, can the Government bring the winter fuel payment within the definition of a taxable income to ensure that pensioners get what they need?
In closing, I call on colleagues to consider whether they can justify—
Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Stamford) (Con)
I rise to speak on behalf of the 20,800 pensioners in Rutland, Stamford and the Harborough and South Kesteven villages who will lose their winter fuel payment this winter. This decision affects millions of people who bought into our country’s social contract: you work hard, you pay your taxes and when you grow old, we will support you through your retirement.
I make two requests of the Labour Government, although I know that they will both be rejected. First, I ask them to delay implementation to give people more time to prepare. Older people are some of the most financially cautious in our society. They save, they go without, they avoid debt, and they give what they can to their children, their grandchildren and their friends in need. A delay of a year would give people the time to claim pension credit, if eligible, to face the upcoming increase in energy bills and to plan for the next winter.
Secondly, I ask the Government to give an exemption to anyone suffering from a chronic or life-shortening illness. Since this cut was announced, I have heard from so many people, including Di, who emailed me out of concern not for herself, but for her husband Jeff, who suffers from cancer and has to wear three layers of clothes all year round, even in the summer. As Di put it, the decision—and it is a decision by the Prime Minister—is penalising the ill. Her “hubby will suffer” and she is shattered.
We will hear a lot from the Government about hard choices, but if I were asked to choose between heating the homes of the elderly, cancer sufferers and dementia sufferers or giving a no-strings-attached pay rise to train drivers already on nearly £70,000, the choice would be pretty damn obvious to me. But then, ASLEF did not donate to my election campaign.
People say that we can tell a lot about a society by how it treats its most vulnerable and its eldest. If we apply that test to this cut, anyone with a heart will know that it is wrong. I, for one, will never vote to deprive the most vulnerable and our elderly of warmth.
Lincoln Jopp (Spelthorne) (Con)
When I was 14 years old, I started delivering Meals on Wheels on Christmas day for the disadvantaged around west London, and I have done so every year since that I have lived in London. The scheme is organised by Age UK and it is a privilege to be invited into people’s homes in midwinter. I look forward to doing it again this Christmas, and I hope that those I visited last year will be there this year.
The Government are seeking to raise money, and I get that. They are seeking to do so by getting those with the broader shoulders to take the heaviest load, and I get that too. In order to achieve those goals, the Government are means-testing the winter fuel payment—and there is the rub. By choosing that means test, the Government are indeed taking the winter fuel payment from millionaire pensioners, but they are also taking it from the much less well off and from the not well off at all. In short, they are cutting too deep.
Mistakes happen, but it is how we deal with mistakes that is important. I spent the weekend listening to the Prime Minister using the word “tough” as many times as he possibly could. On the battlefields of the world, which I have been on for the last 25 years, toughness was not one of the things that people looked for in their leaders. The two things they looked for were courage and competence. Courage—moral courage—sometimes means that people need to admit when they have made a mistake and change their plan. However, the people of Spelthorne—and, I suspect, the pensioners across the country—would just settle for a bit of competence. This Government need to get good at governing, and they need to do so quickly.
John Cooper (Dumfries and Galloway) (Con)
We have heard descriptions today of pensioners as millionaires. We have heard that this is a principled decision to cut money from them. I am astonished at that description. Like my hon. Friend the Member for South West Devon (Rebecca Smith), I am from the south-west—the south-west of Scotland—and I can count on one hand, I would suggest, the number of millionaire pensioners there. Even if their homes were worth millions, having risen in price through no fault of theirs, they are asset-rich, and that is very different from being cash and liquidity rich. If they are hit with a bill, they cannot sell their home. That leaves people in an absolute bind.
We have heard very little today from the SNP, because in Scotland the SNP Government have the ability to ameliorate this decision, should it go ahead. It will cost, they estimate, £160 million. I accept that is not buttons; it is not peanuts. However, the last Conservative Government sent £41 billion to Scotland and I think we should be able to find that money in Scotland to help the worst-off in our society. This is a wrong-headed decision, and I am astonished to hear it being described as a principled decision.
Jess Brown-Fuller (Chichester) (LD)
Since the announcement of the Government’s plans, I and colleagues across this House have been inundated with heartfelt stories of elderly people across the country who will be unfairly harmed by the removal of the winter fuel allowance. It is concerning that the impact was not properly assessed before the Government took this step.
In Chichester, we have 24,000 pensioners who are not receiving pension credits, many of whom sit just above the threshold—constituents such as Sherry, who is 80 and registered disabled. She has to maintain an even living temperature to deal with conditions while living in a 100-year-old cottage with poor insulation. Roy and his wife are in their late 80s and have burned through their meagre savings covering their rising energy bills during this cost of living crisis. Vicky writes to me about having to choose between eating and heating in the current winter months because she will not be able to afford to do both.
Our elderly, who have worked hard throughout their lives, are now being abandoned by a Government that should be supporting them when they need help the most. The Liberal Democrats understand the disastrous state our public finances have been left in, due to the fiscal mismanagement of the previous Conservative Government, and we recognise that tough decisions need to be made. However, those decisions should not be made at the expense of our elderly.
The burden of this Conservative fiscal chaos needs to be spread to those with the broadest shoulders, rather than punishing those who have already been hit hardest by it. Cutting the winter fuel allowance in the midst of a cost of living crisis will leave thousands of elderly individuals across Chichester and millions across the UK without the financial support they need to stay warm and healthy this winter. With the price cap due to rise in October, it could be argued that the winter fuel allowance is needed this winter more than ever.
Paul Holmes (Hamble Valley) (Con)
The change that the Government announced this morning will mean than 18,300 of my constituents will go without their winter fuel payment this Christmas. In the brief time that I have, I will set out why I believe that is just the start from the Government.
The first reason is that cutting winter fuel payments for poorer pensioners is a political choice, not a necessity, despite what the Leader of the House says. Over the election period, Labour said that it would not cut the winter fuel payment. It has broken its promise to the British people, and they will remember that. Labour also said that it would possibly do more, although it has denied that it would not do more. Today’s measures will save £1 billion, as I outlined in my earlier intervention, but Labour has awarded inflation-busting pay rises of £9 billion to its union paymasters.
Peter Swallow
Can the hon. Member explain to the House and to his constituents why he would not back fair pay rises for teachers, nurses, prison officers and members of the armed forces in his constituency?
Paul Holmes
I will not take any lectures from the hon. Member, but I say to him that I always defend pay rises for people in this country who deserve them, which is exactly what the Conservative Government did. What our Government did not do was award inflation-busting pay rises of 22% to the people who paid for our general election campaign, increasing inflation in this country. I believe that people deserve pay rises, but that should be done within a responsible fiscal envelope. The Labour Government simply have not done that.
As we heard from the Chancellor earlier, the measures that she has announced will cost more than the savings generated from scrapping the winter fuel payments—that is a shambles. The Government have done this at a time when energy bills will increase by 10%, despite the Labour party’s promise in Opposition that it would freeze energy bills—another broken promise that pensioners will have to face this Christmas. The Government have also refused to rule out scrapping the 25% single occupancy discount for pensioners and single people. If that goes ahead, they will deprive pensioners of another £600 on average. That is a political choice and a cost of living bombshell that this Labour Government—supposedly the party of hard-working people—will impose on vulnerable and poorer pensioners across the country.
Labour Members have a choice this afternoon and going forward. They should reverse the cut, stand up for the thousands of people in their constituencies who will be made poorer by the Government, and reject the measures that they outlined earlier. Let me put it this way: 18,000 people in my constituency rely on the winter fuel payment, as do thousands of Labour Members’ constituents. When we go to the ballot box in four years’ time, I look forward to Labour Members standing up and explaining to those pensioners why they made them poorer.
Lewis Cocking (Broxbourne) (Con)
In my first speech in this Chamber, I assured the House than my nan would keep me on my toes. Even before the cut to the winter fuel payment had hit the news headlines, she was on the phone to me to sort it out. My nan is one of 15,000 pensioners in Broxbourne who will end up losing £300 a year—a vital sum of money that would help them to keep their homes warm this winter. The Government’s priorities are clearly dictated by their union paymasters, so I am tempted to advise my nan to start her own pensioners’ union. If there were one, I am sure that pensioners would have seen their winter fuel payments go up rather than be abolished.
When we put the Chancellor’s decision into context, it is even more staggering. Labour’s deals with the unions, which have cost the taxpayer £14 billion, will see the average salary of train drivers, who are already well paid, rise from £60,000 to £70,000 a year. Help for heating bills is being taken away from the elderly, but the energy price cap is going up by 10% in a few weeks’ time—a double blow for pensioners. Was making it more expensive for pensioners to heat their homes in Labour’s manifesto? It was not. In fact, we were told that Labour would slash fuel poverty and save families hundreds of pounds. That is yet another broken promise, and Labour has been in power for only 10 weeks.
My nan is not the only one to have got in touch with me about this; I have been inundated with letters and emails from hundreds of constituents. Winter is coming, and I strongly urge the Government to change course.
Aphra Brandreth (Chester South and Eddisbury) (Con)
My constituency has a higher proportion of people in receipt of winter fuel payments than most other constituencies. Over 21,000 of them are set to lose that vital support. Constituents have told me that they face a choice between eating and heating. Others have told me that they are concerned for their health during the cold winter months. Their stories are a powerful reminder of the human cost of this decision.
Maggie is 86 and lives in Handbridge in my constituency. She worked as a midwife in the NHS for 40 years, so has a state pension and a small NHS pension. She is not eligible for additional benefits because she was careful with what she earned and saved wisely. Maggie is just above the threshold to be eligible for continued support. She is also a dual cancer survivor, having beaten breast cancer in 2013 and bowel cancer in 2016. Maggie is understandably worried about the consequences of being unable to heat her home this winter. There is also the story of Jackie and John, who live in Audlem. Like many people living in a rural village, they live off grid and do not have access to mains gas. They must rely on heating oil to heat their home.
Pensioners who have paid into the system all their working lives ought to be able to enjoy their retirement with dignity, security and respect. We all know in this House that to govern is to choose. Labour has chosen. It has chosen its union paymasters over our vulnerable pensioner communities. It has let down Maggie, John and Jackie, and many others like them. I urge the Government to listen with compassion and reconsider this political decision.
Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
For over five years, I have been raising the issue of impact assessments and the fact that they do not make sense. I see the Opposition Front Benchers nodding along, because they know that I have been raising that issue.
Impact assessments are done on a stupid basis that does not make any sense, and certainly not in today’s world. If the Opposition Front Benchers had only changed it when they had the opportunity, we would not be in this situation today. But the Labour party has the opportunity to change the way we do impact assessments so that they actually make sense. They should be about not just whether businesses will be impacted to the tune of £5 million, but what matters to people and whether their lives will be impacted by a change in policy. That is the point at which impact assessments should be done.
We do not have an impact assessment for this policy. Do the Labour party and the UK Government know that single women are three times more likely to be missing out on pension credit than single men? Does the Labour party know that pensioners who are black or from Asian ethnic backgrounds are more likely to be in poverty than white pensioners? Does it therefore know that this decision has a differential impact on minority communities? Is that why it has refused to share the impact assessments with us? How will this policy grow the economy? How will ensuring that pensioners, who we know spend in their local communities, have less money to spend in those local shops grow the economy?
The issue with all of this is not whether we have a Tory or a Labour Government. It is that Westminster consistently fails to work for the people of Scotland.
Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con)
I find it slightly ironic that we are debating this policy today. This is about political choice. A policy that was brought in under Gordon Brown—a social democratic policy of inclusivity under which everyone buys into the state—is being scrapped in favour of a neoliberal means-tested policy, one that I think most actual Labour socialists would be ashamed of.
I declare an interest: I am a member of Care Campaign for the Vulnerable, which helps elderly residents who have medical issues or are in care. One of the issues for those elderly people is heating. These are the elderly who fought for the reconstruction of Britain in post-war London and across the UK, had rationing for years and years and paid their taxes. We have built this country on the back of their hard work and sacrifice, only to turn around and say, “No. We did not scrap this policy under 14 years of a Conservative Government, but we are scrapping it as the first thing we do as a Labour Government.”
I am not even blaming the Minister, the hon. Member for Ealing North (James Murray). I knew the Minister and his parents when they were councillors with me in Ealing—true socialists, for the many, not the few. I am not sure that applies here. This is a political choice to give Labour’s union paymasters a pay rise over vulnerable pensioners. This is about paying £8 billion or £9 billion for an energy company that will not generate a single watt of energy. This is about political choice and political will. If we, the Conservatives, could keep a Labour policy for our entire time in government, it is shocking and disheartening that the Labour party is making this choice now.
Dr Luke Evans (Hinckley and Bosworth) (Con)
Maybe in two minutes, this debate can best be summed up with a lesser-known fable: the farmer and the viper. A farmer was walking through his field. It was very cold in the winter, and he found a viper just under the bushes. The viper was cold, limp, and almost dead. The farmer knew it was poisonous, but he felt compassion for the creature, picked it up and put it in his pocket. As the creature became warm, it reverted to type and bit him and, as he died in that field, he said, “I got what I deserved. I shouldn’t have shown kindness to a scoundrel.”
That rings true, because after 14 years of the Labour party being out in the cold, the pensioners of this country backed Labour into government, under an impression created by the Prime Minister. Only in May 2024, he goaded our Government, asking
“Will the Prime Minister now rule out taking pensioners’ winter fuel payments off them?”—[Official Report, 1 May 2024; Vol. 749, c. 255.]
If we scratch the surface a little bit deeper, though, we find that, on 25 March 2014, the now Chancellor said that
“We are the party who have said that we will cut the winter fuel allowance for the richest pensioners and means-test that benefit to save money”—[Official Report, 25 March 2014; Vol. 578, c. 174-175.]
so this is not a response to a concocted black hole. This was a choice—as Laura Kuenssberg pointed out, it was a choice to pay the unions on the back of our pensioners.
The public are not stupid. The cartoonist Matt sums it up perfectly when he says, “Surprisingly, Robin Hood, nobody likes your plan to steal from pensioners to give to train drivers.” I was in the Chamber last week when the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero said that Conservative Members should
“show a bit of bravery—even break the Whip and stand out from the crowd.”—[Official Report, 5 September 2024; Vol. 753, c. 461.]
I am disappointed that Labour Members did not take that advice, with only one Labour MP doing so.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
I call another doctor, Dr Kieran Mullan.
Dr Kieran Mullan (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)
I rise to express my strong opposition to the Government’s decision to remove the winter fuel payment from millions of pensioners, a move that will strip vital financial support from thousands of my constituents—people who have contributed to our country and helped to build it. The impact in Bexhill and Battle will be profound: Age UK estimates that more than 25,000 pensioners will lose their winter fuel payment as a result of this decision. I hope the Government understand just how significant their decision is in constituencies such as mine.
The Government say that they are focused on increasing the uptake of pension credit. If all those who are eligible to claim pension credit do so, though, the £1.4 billion that the Treasury is expected to save by means-testing the winter fuel payment will be dwarfed by the increase in the cost of pension credit, so the Government have to admit that, ultimately, they do not actually want all those pensioners to take up pension credit.
Our pensioners deserve better. The fall-back of this Government since they took office is to blame the previous Government for all the unpopular actions they have decided to take. They claim the state of the economy is a reason to remove this vital lifeline for pensioners, but let us be clear about the facts. On a broad range of indicators, the situation they have inherited is significantly less challenging than the one we inherited in 2010. We inherited an economy just out of the deepest recession since 1955. Labour left us with public sector net borrowing at 10.3% of GDP; today it is at 4.4%. Unemployment in 2010 was 7.9%; unemployment now stands at 4.1%.
However, from 2010 onwards, through all these difficult times, we made decisions to protect pensioners, and we made sure to keep the winter fuel payment. It was the right thing to do then, and it is the right thing to do now. I ask the Government to listen to MPs from across the House, including some on their own Benches, and think again.
Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)
The Prime Minister and Labour Members tried to bring this country together after division and turmoil, and today I have to say they have succeeded. They have united the country. They have united it in opposition to this new Labour Government and their attack on older people—the very people who deserve compassion, dignity and respect after their lifetime of hard work.
I stand unashamedly shoulder to shoulder with pensioners in Upper Bann and across the United Kingdom in their opposition to this reckless decision. Our pensioners are being left out in the cold by a Government who promised to restore hope. Where is the compassionate Labour we were promised? Where is the restored hope? What hope do pensioners have in Upper Bann? What hope do they have that this Government might listen, care for them and stop neglecting them? They now feel like they are the target.
To be fair, this Government have offered pensioners something to keep them busy through the cold winter months by suggesting they take a stab at completing the pension credit application form—a form with 243 questions across 24 pages, with a delay of nine weeks for a decision. They are asking pensioners to navigate a bureaucratic nightmare just to receive a fraction of what they need to survive. I stand here today united with my constituents and united with pensioners across this country in opposition to this baseless decision.
In conclusion, no one is arguing that millionaires should get the winter fuel payment, but over 6 million of the pensioners set to be impacted by this decision are living on the state pension. They are living on just over £11,000 a year. Could anyone in this House live on £11,000 a year?
George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)
Mid Norfolk is a profoundly rural constituency, with 130 villages and four towns, and in that very rural constituency, as with all rural areas in this country, people are paying a surcharge because of energy costs and because of rurality. There will be colder weather, and many of my houses are not on the gas grid, while rural areas traditionally have lower incomes and we have an elderly population.
The Treasury, very helpfully—it is a shame Ministers did not read it—did a piece of work last year looking at the risks of rural poverty and the higher risk of rural areas falling into real poverty. The Treasury’s own figures showed that the average household at risk of poverty in rural areas needs an extra £800; or in layman’s terms, there is a two and a half times—or 250%—higher risk of rural houses falling into rural poverty. So I find it completely extraordinary that Labour, which in government professes to care about poverty and berated my party when in government about the risks of rural poverty and of pensioner poverty, has decided as their first act to punish people in rural areas.
It is because of those rural risks that, earlier this year, I and a number of colleagues set up a fair funding alliance, supported by Action with Communities in Rural England, the Countryside Alliance and rural bodies. Higher fuel and energy prices are hitting rural areas, and we would have hoped that this Government might have listened. I am proud that the Conservative party in government upgraded pensions, protected the triple lock and took 200,000 pensioners out of poverty.
Ben Maguire
The former Member for Thornbury and Yate introduced the triple lock, which was actually a Liberal Democrat policy. Would the hon. Member care to correct the record on that point?
George Freeman
It was my good friend the now noble Lord Willetts in a coalition Government with the Liberal Democrats, and I will happily debate with the hon. Member some of the brave decisions we took.
The point is that this party, the Conservative party, protected pensioners, protected the triple lock and lifted 200,000 people out of poverty, but we see this Labour Government make this decision. The Minister put it very clearly earlier. This is an attack on people who own their own homes, people who have retired in rural areas and those just over the threshold, and in Labour world they are millionaires. This will not be forgotten by people in my constituency, the low-income rural pensioners who have saved up to be able to afford their own home and are now being clobbered. It is unfair, it is unjust, it is unjustifiable, it is unprecedented, and I urge and beg Ministers to think again.
Robbie Moore (Keighley and Ilkley) (Con)
I rise to voice my strong opposition to the Labour Government’s cruel choice to scrap the winter fuel allowance for an estimated 10 million pensioners across the country. I have been contacted by hundreds of pensioners in my constituency who are all incredibly concerned about the dire consequences of this Government’s decision. I met many of them in surgeries and at Keighley agricultural show this weekend, and they are telling me that they are going to struggle to pay their bills this winter. Statistics show that just over 64,000 pensioners across the Bradford district, including 20,000 in my constituency, will be negatively impacted as a result of the Labour Government’s decision. That, quite frankly, is a disgrace.
Citizens Advice, Age UK and hundreds of charities across the UK have also come out against these proposals, warning that low-income households that are already struggling to make ends meet will be forced this winter into impossible choices between heating their homes or putting food on the table. It is incredibly disappointing to see the hon. Member for Shipley (Anna Dixon) from the Bradford district, vote with the Government this evening, ensuring that she does not stand up for the wider Bradford district, as I will be doing.
It is Labour’s choice that we are putting pensioners at risk as a result of this decision, and Labour’s choice that is putting my constituents, pensioners who are vulnerable, in the dire position of having to decide whether they heat their homes or put food on the table this winter. I only hope that quick changes will be made to ensure that pensioners are looked after in the run-up to winter.
Dave Doogan (Angus and Perthshire Glens) (SNP)
Some 19,500 pensioners in Angus and Perthshire Glens will be stripped of their winter fuel payment by this Labour Government. I cannot tell the House how cold it gets in Angus and Perthshire Glens in wintertime, but if anyone on the Labour Front Bench wants to come and sit in my garage on a January day, I will turn the heating off in the whole property and they can see what it will be like for some pensioners in my constituency.
I will not be supporting this measure because it is incompetent. It is incompetent operationally, because it does not take cognisance of co-morbidities in already frail people, or of what will happen to those people as they budget to try to accommodate this unnecessary cut to their income. It is fiscally incompetent, because it does not take cognisance of whole-system costs—people presenting at hospital or going into care prematurely because they cannot stay at home, because of what they do to try to make ends meet. It does not take account of the cost to the supposed saving of £1.5 billion once pension credit is taken up fully, rendering the saving meaningless. It is morally incompetent because, as we have heard from professionals in the Chamber, as a result of this decision, people will die.
Moreover, this measure was not in the Labour party manifesto, which is reprehensible, and it ignores the cultural sensitivities of older people, many of whom find asking for help anathema; they will never do it, no matter how entitled they are. I very much hope that when the Minister sums up the debate, she will estimate how many of the 209 extra Labour MPs in this House, including 37 in Scotland, would be here if cutting the winter fuel payment had been on the face of their manifesto. It would be very many fewer.
Sir Ashley Fox (Bridgwater) (Con)
I speak on behalf of 19,300 pensioners in my constituency who are set to lose their winter fuel allowance. Some 23% of my constituents are aged 65 or over, which is well above the national average. Many retired people in my constituency have done the right thing: they have worked all their lives, paid their national insurance stamp, and now have a small private pension and modest savings. It is because they have done the right thing that many of those pensioners are not eligible to claim pension credit. This Government are choosing to punish them for the prudent and conscientious choices they made through their working lives by withdrawing this important means of support.
Labour justified the decision to cut the winter fuel allowance by talking about its alleged poor economic inheritance. Let us take a moment to clear up some facts. In 2010, the budget deficit was about 11% of GDP at £157 billion. Today, it is about 4% of GDP. In 2010, unemployment was about 8%, and today it has halved and is about 4%. In May 2010, inflation was 3.4%. Today it is 2%. This is not the worst economic inheritance since the war.
Patrick Spencer
I am sure my hon. Friend will agree when I say that the economic inheritance that the Government received is incredible, considering that we had to deal with the covid pandemic crisis as well as the Russian invasion of Ukraine. That put huge pressure on our economy.
Sir Ashley Fox
My hon. Friend makes an important point. It just emphasises the fact that when the Chancellor says that it is a tough decision that has to be made, she is actually making a political choice. She has chosen to give train drivers earning £60,000 a year a pay rise of 15%. She has chosen to cut the income of retired people with a pension of £15,000 a year. That was her choice, and the British people will judge her and the Labour party on it.
Nick Timothy (West Suffolk) (Con)
Let us be absolutely clear about what has happened today: every single Labour MP who voted to cut the winter fuel allowance has broken their promise to the country. Pensioners know that before the election Labour denied that it was going to do this, but they might not know that the Chancellor had been planning it for 10 years. In 2014 she said:
“we will cut the winter fuel allowance for the richest pensioners and means-test that benefit to save money”.—[Official Report, 25 March 2014; Vol. 578, c. 174.]
Are we supposed to believe that she changed her mind after that and then changed it back again shortly after the general election? I do not think so.
There may be a case for means-testing, but the Chancellor is cutting the payment not just for the richest pensioners, but for pensioners on very modest incomes. She is also not making the case for it. She is asking the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to do her dirty work for her. If winter fuel payments are to be means-tested, surely the proceeds should go towards low-income pensioners and the cost of social care, but they are not. They are going on above-inflation pay rises for the likes of Labour donors ASLEF.
Richard Tice (Boston and Skegness) (Reform)
Last Friday in Boston I was stopped by a pensioner, a lovely lady called Elizabeth, who shook my hand and burst into tears—uncontrollable tears of genuine fear. She represents more than 22,200 pensioners in Boston and Skegness who will lose out through this cruel policy. It was the fear of being cold this winter—not knowing how cold—and the fear of what will happen to energy prices in October. How high will they go in January? It was the unbelievable fear of not knowing whether she will see the end of winter, because that is the reality: older, colder people die early.
We have heard about choices a lot today. It is true that this Government have made a calculated deliberate, heartless, cruel choice to enrich their union paymasters, to enrich public sector workers with no requirements on productivity, to enrich well-paid train drivers and to impoverish pensioners. Let me tell this House that voters will not forget and they will not forgive.
Harriet Cross (Gordon and Buchan) (Con)
Some 17,047 pensioners in Gordon and Buchan will lose their winter fuel payment following today’s vote by the Labour party, but this decision for my constituents shows that they are being let down by their Governments at Holyrood and at Westminster. The Labour party is choosing to let them down by cutting the winter fuel payment, and the SNP is choosing not to pass on Barnett consequentials. In north-east Scotland, winters are longer and harsher than in most of the country. Our temperatures often fall below minus 10°C for a sustained period, and in recent years it has not been unusual to have had minus 20°C in Aberdeenshire. The winter fuel payment is not a luxury for our pensioners; it is a lifeline.
This is the Labour party’s choice. As much as it would like to explain that choice away, it has chosen to cut the winter fuel payment, and it must face what that means. Labour’s choice means that our pensioners now have to make their own choices, so Labour’s choice has become a pensioner’s choice.
Perhaps most shocking of all is Labour’s breathtaking hypocrisy on this issue. In 2017, Labour Members on these Opposition Benches had their own research showing that cutting winter fuel payments could lead to almost 4,000 excess deaths. They then vehemently opposed any changes to what they called that “vital” support. What has changed? Have pensioners suddenly become more resilient to the cold, or has the Labour party simply abandoned its principles to fund its own political choices?
Many pensioners in my constituency still rely on solid fuels such as oil, so once a year, going into winter, they fill up their tanks. Payment for that will be coming shortly—before November, and way before next year and any pension rises. How will those pensioners afford to fill their tanks and heat their homes in the months to come?
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
I am grateful for all the bobbing, but we must now go to the Front-Bench speakers. I call the shadow Minister.
Mims Davies (East Grinstead and Uckfield) (Con)
I welcome the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Wycombe (Emma Reynolds), to her place and wish her well. It is a pleasure to close the debate on behalf of His Majesty’s official Opposition, but sadly that is where any pleasure at being at this Dispatch Box on this matter ends.
We have debated a clear and stark choice made by the new Labour Government, the Prime Minister and his “This black hole is what made me do it” Chancellor. It is a patently poor political choice that is wrong-headed and frankly a disgrace. It is a blatant choice for union paymasters while axing key support for 10 million pensioners. It is a reward for Labour’s funders. None of that was in the manifesto or on election leaflets—it is pure subterfuge and hoodwinking.
No charity or group fully backs this measure, given the timescales and its cack-handed and draconian delivery. The Government can bluster and say with the faux anger we heard earlier that they have been acting with the hand they were given. They can say that they simply had no choice and that this was a necessity due to the fantasy inheritance they were allegedly left. Let us look at the facts. UK unemployment sits at 4.1%, sterling is up against the dollar and growth is outpacing inflation. Despite some loyal speeches from new Government Members and passionate speeches from all around the Chamber, Labour Members know—many of them were blank, mute, absent or perhaps even stunned—that Ministers are targeting our pensioners with so little notice.
As the nights draw in, higher winter fuel bills loom. To dress up this measure under the cloak of financial necessity is staggering. It is a costly mistake from the Treasury under the Labour Chancellor that the DWP will have to shoulder, moving staff swiftly to cover the incoming impact of those applying for pension credit. What about those who had planned to pay for their pre-Christmas tank of off-grid oil with their £300 of expected support? The demand surge for pension credit must be met in both cost and delivery, and DWP Ministers will be scratching their heads about where the resource will come from for the reported surge in pension credit applications.
Mims Davies
I will give way to the hon. Gentleman if he can tell us why he thinks this is a good idea.
Robin Swann
I can assure the shadow Minister that I do not think it is a good idea. On the point that she and others have raised about no assessment having been done, I represent Northern Ireland, where 49.5% of homes rely solely on oil for heat. Does she think that the Government realise the additional pressures that will be put on Northern Ireland pensioners following the decision? Our Minister for Communities announced today that 306,000 people will lose the payment.
Mims Davies
I thank the hon. Gentleman for standing up for his constituents. I agree about the disproportionate and deep impact on our cold spots in Northern Ireland, rural areas, the north and Scotland.
This benefit reform will not be easy. We bear the scars on the Opposition Benches from universal credit, but the change was truly worth it. As the hon. Gentleman said, what does the impact assessment actually say? Who gains, and does it stack up financially? I think we all know that it does not, else the Government would have not ignored the Social Security Advisory Committee process and its scrutiny. They would have done a proper impact assessment and a regulatory assessment, and they would not have tried to avoid a vote on the Floor of the House.
Government Members will troop through the Lobby again, as fodder for an out-of-touch Prime Minister, or they may abstain to avoid the eyes of the Chancellor, deep in the hope that spraying billions of pounds on gimmicks like a shell company called GB Energy will be worth it. They must be aware that they will have to face people in their communities who will want to understand why a few millionaires were worth the attack on millions. Let us take June. She told the BBC that she will struggle to stay warm this winter. She is already planning her jumpers, cardigans and candles. My constituent Valerie from East Grinstead wrote to me—one of almost 20,000 affected—and said:
“I am 80 years old and live on a State Pension of less than £11k, not the…£13k that I keep reading about… I don’t know who gets that much but I certainly don’t!”
She goes on to say that it will be
“a long, cold winter… please do what you can to get this dreadful decision reversed.”
Labour Members could join us in the Lobby to back pensioners like Valerie.
The Opposition welcome the household support fund extension and the commitment to the Conservatives’ triple lock, but we knew going into winter, with energy bills going up, that the right thing to do was to help with cost of living payments. In my experience as an MP and a Minister, I know that the worries and responsibilities of this job come to all Members in the dead of night. It will be in the darkness and the cold in the small hours that women and men who have served this country and supported families and communities will be lying awake worried, fretting and feeling afraid. For those who are frail and living with a disability or a health condition, warmth matters to their health, Loneliness, isolation and worry will eat away at them, because they cannot take a job or do some extra hours to help make ends meet. Medics have warned that this will have serious health threats, as has Age UK.
Pensioners on low incomes matter. They truly are the people who know how to budget. They are the people who eke out and work out their finances. Nobody will work out how this new Labour Government of service has targeted those people so shamefully this autumn. Those families will not forget. They are not statistics. They are Valerie and June, and thousands of others in every community and constituency. They are proud pensioners, who too often go without but do not tell others that they are. Again this winter, they will go without for others. This is horrific. It is a blight on this new Government. It is not right for this to happen to pensioners on their watch. It is their choice. I ask that hon. Members and Ministers do the right thing and stop this callous cut now.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Emma Reynolds)
This has been an important debate, with many hon. and right hon. Members making important contributions. My hon. Friends the Members for Wirral West (Matthew Patrick), for Bracknell (Peter Swallow), for Bishop Auckland (Sam Rushworth), for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh (Chris Murray), for Rugby (John Slinger) and for Makerfield (Josh Simons) rightly spoke about the importance of this Government’s action to restore economic stability so that we can rebuild our economy and our public services. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Northfield (Laurence Turner) rightly reminded us that a strong economy needs strong public services. Many hon. Members, both on—
Alison Griffiths (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton) (Con)
Will the Minister give way?
Emma Reynolds
I am going to make a little bit of progress.
Many hon. Members, both on—
Emma Reynolds
I said I will make some progress, thank you.
Many hon. Members, both on the Government side and on the Opposition Benches, including my hon. Friend the Member for Earley and Woodley (Yuan Yang) and the hon. Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris), spoke about the work they are doing to encourage pensioners in their own constituencies to apply for pension credit to get the support they need.
I want to start by saying some more about the principles that underlie the Government’s approach to means-testing winter fuel payments. First, most help should be targeted to those who most need it. Secondly, significant support for all pensioners will come around via the triple lock. Thirdly, alongside that, extra help will be available to those on low incomes.
Emma Reynolds
I will in a minute.
Before I do that, I want to say something about means-testing. I have found, both in this debate and in the earlier debate in Westminster Hall where no Conservative Members were present, that there is a lot of support for means-testing the winter fuel payment. We heard from the right hon. Member for Herne Bay and Sandwich (Sir Roger Gale), who said in this debate that he supports means-testing this benefit. We heard that the right hon. Member for North West Essex (Mrs Badenoch), who is the Conservative leadership contest favourite, also supports means-testing this benefit.
Sir Roger Gale
The hon. Lady has misrepresented me. She knows perfectly well that while I said I supported the principle, I abhor the way she is going about it.
Emma Reynolds
The right hon. Gentleman did indeed say that he supported the principle. The Liberal Democrats, in their manifesto of 2017, also said that they supported means-testing this benefit.
Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
I thank the Minister for giving way, but I think she fails to understand that while we accept the principle of means-testing—we accept that there are many pensioners who can afford not to have the winter fuel payment—it is the manner in which the Labour Government intend to bring it in, with a sharp cliff edge and no accounting for the people close to the pension credit limit, that we find abhorrent.
Emma Reynolds
I will come on to that point, but first I want to say how crucial it is to boost the uptake of pension credit.
We are taking immediate action to increase that take-up, given that up to an estimated 880,000 eligible pensioners are missing out on this support, worth £3,900 on average. I hope there can be some consensus across the House that we need to work together to boost that uptake. That is why last week we launched an initial pension credit week of action to boost awareness. We will continue to raise awareness until the deadline, 21 December, for making a successful backdated pension credit claim.
Dave Doogan
I grateful to the Minister for giving way. On awareness, is she aware how much more it costs to heat a home in winter in Blairgowrie, compared with Brighton or Belgravia?
Emma Reynolds
I will come on to the issue the hon. Gentleman raises in just a moment.
On pension credit, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and the Deputy Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner) have written to all local authorities asking them to redouble their efforts to reach those pensioners who could benefit from pension credit. [Interruption.] The Opposition Front Bench might grumble, but it is a far sight more than they ever did when they were in power. We are joining forces with charities such as Age UK and Citizens Advice to encourage pensioners to check their eligibility and apply. We will be delivering a major campaign in print and broadcast media, including to urge people to reach out to retired family, friends and neighbours to get them to check if they are eligible.
Emma Reynolds
No, I will not.
For the very first time, we are writing to all pensioners in receipt of housing benefit who are potentially eligible to encourage them to claim pension credit—again, something that the last Conservative Government never did.
Emma Reynolds
No, I will not.
Over the last five weeks, we have already seen claims for pension credit more than double, and, backed by more than 450 additional staff, we will ensure that claims are processed as quickly as possible.
As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions said in the earlier debate, we will bring forward the merger of housing benefit and pension credit as soon as that is operationally possible, something that the last Government promised but failed to deliver. We are also taking action to ensure that all pensioners get the income that they deserve. Despite being urged by the Institute for Fiscal Studies and others to drop the triple lock during the election campaign, the Government are steadfast in their commitment to it. The triple lock has seen the state pension increase by £2,700 over the last five years, and it was increased by £900 this year and by £970 in the previous year. According to figures released today, which still need to be confirmed, in October we will see the provision of an extra £460 a year from next April.
Stephen Gethins (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry) (SNP)
Will the Minister give way?
Emma Reynolds
No, I will not.
Moreover, the warm home discount of £150 will help low-income pension households this year. That is critically important, because it is not just for the lowest-income pensioners on pension credit. It is for pensioners on low incomes who have high energy costs, and it will be open to application in October.
Emma Reynolds
I have said to the hon. Lady that I will not give way, and I will not give way, so she should sit down.
The Government encourage Members to boost awareness and encourage people to apply for the warm home discount.
Alison Griffiths
I thank the Minister, but I should like her to explain why this Government have failed to extract any concessions from the train drivers and their union paymasters.
Alison Griffiths
I have not finished. The Government’s “digital centre of government” was all ready to use technology to improve public services, but there has been a complete failure of negotiation, and the price is being paid by our pensioners.
Emma Reynolds
I honestly think that Conservative Members have some brass neck. During their time in power, we lost an average of 3 million working days a year to strikes because of their failure to deal with industrial action, and we lost 1.4 million NHS appointments which were cancelled, which meant that pensioners and others were in pain for longer than they needed to be. We will not take lectures from the Conservatives. We have had to take this difficult decision to means-test the winter fuel payment because of the £22 billion black hole in year, this year. [Interruption.] They may not want to hear it, but they should apologise for leaving that black hole. It was created by repeated and reckless unfunded spending—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Is the point of order directly relevant to the current proceedings?
Graham Stuart
Yes, Madam Deputy Speaker. I just want some guidance from you on whether it can be appropriate for Ministers and others on the Government Benches who have been directly funded by the trade unions not to declare that personal benefit before doing something like this, which is hurting millions of pensioners.
Madam Deputy Speaker
Members are guided to talk about any such conflict before they speak on the Floor of the House. I am not sure that this has a direct impact on proceedings, but the right hon. Gentleman’s point has been noted.
Emma Reynolds
Again and again, the Conservatives are dividing working people and pensioners, and that is disgraceful.
In conclusion, means-testing the winter fuel payment is a difficult decision. [Interruption.] I receive no funding from ASLEF, so the right hon. Gentleman can withdraw his comment. We are targeting support at the poorest pensioners, boosting the uptake of pension credit, maintaining the triple lock for pensioners, extending the household support fund and the warm homes discount and, in the longer term, introducing a warm homes plan to insulate people’s homes. These are the right decisions to take. This Government are determined the fix the foundations of our economy so that we can deliver the change on which we were elected, and which this country and our pensioners so desperately need. Bringing down NHS waiting times—
Stuart Andrew (Daventry) (Con)
claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).
Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.
Question agreed to.
Main question put accordingly.
Dynamic Ticket Pricing
(3 months, 3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Dame Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)
I welcome the Minister to his place and very much look forward to working with him to promote our world-class creative industries, including our music industry and all the other fantastic sectors that his Department promotes.
Today, I want to talk about music ticketing and recognise the remarkable circumstances that have provoked this debate. News of the Oasis reunion has dominated the news cycle for the last week or so, but some might say for all the wrong reasons. What should have been a moment to celebrate one of the UK’s most significant cultural exports—and the chance to revisit the music that, for many, me included, was the soundtrack to our youth—has morphed into a conversation about exploitative practices in the music industry that hurt fans and the grassroots sector. Some of the issues have been rumbling away for years. In fact, earlier this year, the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport published a report on grassroots music that outlined some of the major challenges facing the live music ecosystem and suggested some ways forward.
The Minister knows the facts. On 31 August, some 14 million people from 158 countries logged on to a digital queue to buy tickets to the Oasis Live 25 reunion tour, 15 years after the band broke up and 30 years on from their seminal first album, “Definitely Maybe”. Fans were locked in an online queue for up to 10 hours and, when many of them, it seemed almost at random, made it to the front of the queue, the tickets were in many cases more than double the price that had been advertised. The dynamic pricing mechanism employed by Oasis, their promoters and management via Ticketmaster served to increase the price of tickets in line with demand, but in reality it resulted in a kind of lucky dip game in which the price got worse and worse by no clear mechanism except the secret and opaque rules of a computer algorithm in the hands of Ticketmaster.
I should declare an interest: after four hours of queuing, I had become wistful about the halcyon days of real-life physical box offices, where we queued almost overnight to get our tickets, but at least we could see the queue in front of us and we knew how long we would have to wait.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I commend the hon. Member for bringing this debate. She is right and many of my constituents experienced the issue that she mentions. We understand the economic principles of supply and demand, but we also understand the principle of price gouging. For those who believed they would be charged one price to have just a few moments to decide whether they would be prepared to pay double is unfair pressure. We must always encourage free trade, but we must also be mindful of consumer protection in Strangford, Gosport or any part of this United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Dame Caroline Dinenage
I could not have said it better myself—that is exactly what it is. We understand the laws of supply and demand, but we also understand the laws of transparency and fairness. What is more, once ticket purchasers were through to the payment screen, fans realised that they only had a very limited time to decide whether the hugely inflated prices were worth paying. Someone compared the ticket purchase after such a long wait to the dopamine rush of a gambler. The £150 to £400 price increase meant that the transaction was no longer a choice, but more of an impulse buy.
I have heard many people say that the dynamic pricing method is used effectively in other sectors, and that the technology is a perfect demonstration of the dynamism of a free market. Even within the music industry itself, there is dispute as to whether dynamic pricing has a place and is an acceptable way forward.
Pete Wishart (Perth and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate. I was hoping to secure a debate on the subject myself but she beat me to it. There seems to be an issue about who is to blame for all of this—no one is taking responsibility for the issue of dynamic pricing. Ticketmaster is blaming the management and artists, and they are blaming those who were promoting the events. As she is now the Chair of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, will she look into this on behalf of the House and find out exactly why this has happened, with a view to having it stopped and outlawed entirely?
Dame Caroline Dinenage
I am very fortunate to have been re-elected as the Chair of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, but we do not have any members of the Committee yet. Any decisions about what the Committee will look at will very much be a group decision jointly taken, but this is certainly something I will be putting forward. I know the Minister has already announced some consultation of his own.
To return to dynamic pricing and the laws of supply and demand, mentioned by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), this is something that is used across different marketplaces. Uber employs a smart dynamic pricing mechanism that adjusts the cost of journeys in line with changing variables, such as traffic and current rider-to-driver demand. Hotels and airlines are another market that uses dynamic pricing, but they are very different. If people are stuck at Waterloo station, as I sometimes am, an Uber is not the only option of travel and, when people go on holiday, multiple airlines offer flights to the same city and different hotel options, but when it comes to live music, particularly in cases such as this one, there is one artist and one opportunity to buy a ticket.
The imperfections of the dynamic pricing mechanism were obvious to anybody who attempted to buy a ticket on this occasion, but whatever the rights and wrongs of its suitability for music ticketing and this market place, the most important issue is that fans were not warned about the use of dynamic pricing before they entered the digital queue. Those are the faults that led the Competition and Markets Authority to open its investigation into this debacle. It meant that people had no idea how much a ticket would cost when they logged in. Many fans ended up paying at least double the original listing price of £148, so four standing tickets could cost an eye-watering £1,400 once service and order processing fees were included. The CMA says that it will investigate whether fans were given “clear and timely information”.
Any free market economist would call this a classic case of information asymmetry. There was certainly a lack of clarity over how high ticket prices might eventually go, with the additional chaos of a time limit putting pressure on fans to make an imminent decision about whether they were going to buy.
Ticketmaster claims that the dynamic pricing mechanism is the best way to deter ticket touts, the logic being that any tout buying tickets in bulk would increase demand and therefore see his or her prices and margins slashed. The Guardian has already said that secondary ticketing platforms are advertising more than 4,500 tickets for this tour already, including from one tout who claims to have at least 33 tickets for Cardiff, Wembley and Murrayfield listed, for a combined price of over £26,000.
I am glad that this summer the Government announced a consultation on the secondary ticketing market, where tickets are sold in bulk by touts who often use bots to scout for tickets at face value and sell them well beyond the market value, but will the Minister set out the parameters and timescales for the work? When will it happen and what is it likely to include? He has now announced that the investigation will be widened to consider dynamic pricing and what happened in the Oasis situation, so can we have a reassurance that the eye will not be taken off the ball of the original consultation that he announced in the summer?
There are so many aspects at play. This method of resale is also the culprit for a large amount of money lost to fraud, with Lloyd’s estimating that £1 million was lost to scammers during Taylor Swift’s Eras tour alone. Will the Minister tell me whether the secondary market consultation will include conversations with digital search engines that are signposting customers into the hands of touts and not doing enough to get them direct to principal sales sites?
There is scope for an entire primary market review and for ticketing to be reviewed on a much wider scale. The Oasis episode has opened the eyes of fans to potential anti-competitiveness within the industry. As complaints about the ticketing process began to flood in, Oasis said it was their management and promoters who had agreed a dynamic pricing strategy with Ticketmaster. But, of course, their three tour promoters all have links to Live Nation, Ticketmaster’s parent company and, in effect, they are all the same party. So that party is making money hand over fist through the system, which keeps everything under the Live Nation umbrella.
For a typical tour, a Live Nation subsidiary promoter might take 10% of the face value of a ticket. A service charge of perhaps a quarter of that face value will then be applied, and some of that money will be going to Live Nation-owned Ticketmaster. The venue will take a cut at this stage, which, in all likelihood, will be a Live Nation-owned venue, too, as it owns 28 festivals and venues UK-wide. The process is repeated at resale, if people go through Ticketmaster at a higher cost than before, leaving Live Nation with an even greater cut.
The Minister does not need to be a public intellectual to see that there is a real perverse incentive for Ticketmaster to see tickets in the hands of touts. He will know that the US Department of Justice has slapped Live Nation with a lawsuit, citing anti-competitive conduct, while it is now well established that the company has a near monopoly in the UK.
Dynamic pricing is quite an effective way of rewarding a near-monopoly, with no upper limit on ticket prices, meaning a greater cut for the parent company. The great sadness of all this is not only that the system is punishing the fans—in this case, those Oasis fans for whom the music was so totemic, so life changing back in the ‘90s—but that, to add insult to injury, there is no trickle down to the live music ecosystem, like the grassroots music venues that Oasis first played in while honing their skills, the venues that made them, such the Boardwalk in Manchester and King Tut’s in Glasgow.
Although Oasis have since announced further tour dates, tickets to new dates will be sold at face value via invitation-only ballot. I cannot help feeling that the fans who paid through the nose via dynamic pricing are going to feel very hard done by.
I encourage the Minister to look at ways to amplify fans’ voices within the live music ecosystem. He might start by responding to the Culture, Media and Sport Committee’s report into grassroots music, which I have already mentioned. It was published in May. I know that we have had the small matter of a general election since then, but I would like to know when the response is likely to be forthcoming and whether the Government are minded to accept its recommendations. The recommendations include one for a fan-led review of music—something like the fan-led review of football that was led by my still friend, my former hon. Friend, the former Member for Chatham and Aylesford, Tracey Crouch—to look at how the music pyramid functions and how the money trickles down from the big players to those small venues and fledgling songwriters and artists.
The recommendations included a targeted VAT cut, which to grassroots venues would have represented a final hour of salvation in a sector that is widely accepted to be in crisis, and a live music levy, which would take a small proportion of the service fee from the pockets of the big venues and bring them right down to the struggling businesses at the grassroots. What is most pertinent to me about all this is that, while many of the 28 venues and festivals in which Live Nation owns a stake are flourishing, grassroots music venues are closing at a rate of two a week.
I am sure that the Minister is aware that, of the 34 music venues in which Oasis played on their first tour back in 1994, only 11 are still open today. And those venues are so crucial. They are absolutely fundamental to incubate our world-renowned talent. They are the R&D department for the music industry. They are a massive feeder into something that is fundamental to the UK economy and crucial to our soft power around the world. In a ticketing market gone wrong, there might have been a gram of comfort to some of the fans paying through the nose for their ticket if they knew that, in paying it, some of the money was protecting grassroots music venues in their communities and germinating the Oasis of the future.
I know that, like me, the Minister wants nothing more than to see our musical talent continue to thrill fans both at home and around the world, but behind every great act is a chance performance at a low-capacity venue that is struggling to keep the lights on, that is at financial breaking point, and that is a hair’s breadth away from closing its doors.
The Minister for Creative Industries, Arts and Tourism (Chris Bryant)
It is a particular delight to see you in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker; I have not had an opportunity to congratulate you on your election—hurrah!
It is also a great delight to see the hon. Member for Gosport (Dame Caroline Dinenage) and to congratulate her on her election. Not many Tories have been elected to many things this year, but it is a great delight to see that she is returning as the Chair of the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport. She knows a lot about this subject and has devoted a lot of her time and energy to it, and I look forward to working with her. I am sure there will be times when she has cross words with me, but sometimes cross words make Governments better. That was certainly my policy when I was sitting on the Opposition side of the House, so I am sure that what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
Live events are really important to the British creative economy, and to the whole economy in the UK. It is the joy that they bring. I am sorry to start with a Kylie reference—well, actually I am not—but I would defy anybody to have gone to the Kylie concert in Hyde Park this summer and not come away bouncing with joy and full of the joys of spring. It was beautiful. It was amazing. It was thousands and thousands of people in a royal park enjoying themselves and celebrating. For others who went the night before, it was Stevie Nicks, in a completely different vein, but none the less providing that same sense of joy. That is an important part of what live events can do—that sense of being part of an enormous crowd of people enjoying either singing along or listening and that special sense of being together.
Live music is really important to our economy. I remember, it must be a year ago now, being in Newcastle: Sam Fender was performing at St James’ Park and we went to see P!nk, who was on at the Stadium of Light. That must have brought millions of pounds into the local economy. It was certainly an awful lot of money for the local hotels. Down in Cardiff we have lots of concerts, which many people from the south Wales valleys go to, and people come from all over the world. When Springsteen was there earlier this year, Cardiff basically had to be closed off, but the knock-on for the hotels, the bars and the hospitality industry was really significant. It was also significant for tourism, for which I am also the Minister.
It was reckoned that 200,000 people in the UK worked in the live events industry last year and it is an important part of what we do. It is part of the reason many people want to come to the UK. If I may gently say so, one of the things we would like to sort out is British acts being able to tour elsewhere in Europe, but it is good that Europeans are able to come here to see some of our acts.
The hon. Lady makes a really important point that this issue is not just about very big venues; it is about small venues as well, and I do have anxiety about the state of play for many of them. Some of those problems are shared with the whole of the hospitality industry, incidentally—skills, staffing, the costs of fuel, security and so on—but it is a simple fact, as she points out and as her Select Committee has pointed out, that there have been far too many closures over recent years. We stand ready to do what we possibly can to try to slow down, if not halt, that process of closure, because she is right: if an act does not have somewhere to start with a capacity of 250 or 300 or 500, how will they ever grow to end up filling Wembley or any of the arenas we have been talking about? The value in live events is created by the artist, the fans and the venue—it is a combination of the three; it is not created by ticket touts—and it is that combination that we really have to work on.
The hon. Lady is absolutely right that ticketing has changed. I remember once when I was in Saint Petersburg, or Leningrad as it was then—that is how old I am—I went to buy tickets for the opera and we bought tickets that were rolled up in a little peg hole. That is what a ticketing system used to be. That is what theatres used to have in the UK. Then we changed over to a system of having a physical ticket that we presented. Many of us have kept all our tickets for all the shows we have ever been to; I know friends who have collections of Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark tickets through the years and so on. Now, of course, we have a completely online, digital system. That is great in many ways. It can be easier and enhance security, but it can also be much more difficult, and has produced a whole set of new challenges for fans, artists and venues to make the market work effectively: barcodes, QR codes and all the rest of it; transferring a ticket from one person to another; different apps developed by different venues, and so on.
There are very new challenges. First, there is security, to which the hon. Lady referred, and someone getting the ticket that they actually paid for, rather than a ticket that did not exist in the first place. We have all heard hideous examples of that, and it is an embarrassment for us all that over recent years we have seen so few prosecutions in that area, despite the fact that nearly all of us can cite instances of constituents falling prey to those who are effectively selling tickets that they thought they might be able to buy online but do not possess. People then turn up to the venue and find that their tickets are not being honoured because they were not tickets in the first place. That is a security issue in the modern market.
There is also a fairness issue. The hon. Lady points out the experience of people logging on at 9 o’clock and sitting there for hours and hours. It is a system in which we have no idea how somebody gets to be number 1,273 rather than 1,884 in the queue. It seems completely and utterly random, but one suspects that there might be clever means by which people who have deep pockets and know how to navigate the system are able to manipulate it. It is clear that there are many instances of bots effectively hoovering up a large number of tickets using lots of different IDs, credit cards and the rest of it. That is an issue of fairness. Is everybody queuing fairly or not?
Then, there is the question of transparency. Online sites are not as open as they might be about the real or original cost—the face-value cost—of the ticket that they then sell for a different price. Some people say to me, “Well, it says ‘FV’, and all you have to do is click on the FV,” but why do sites not make the face value immediately obvious? Let me give the House one instance of inflated pricing, which is much more excessive in the secondary market than the hon. Lady said.
If someone who wants to see Dua Lipa at the Royal Albert Hall on 17 October visits the Viagogo site, they can either buy a ticket with a face value of €63 for £912— I do not know why it is cited in euros—or they can buy a ticket with a face value of £70 for £1,000. Or—and this is my favourite—they can buy for £9,444 a ticket that has a face value of £126.38. As the hon. Lady rightly said, not a single penny of the difference between £126 and £9,444 will go to the artist, the venue, the cleaner or lighting expert in the venue, the person who wrote the songs that Dua Lipa will sing, or the fans. It is simply going to Viagogo, and I think that that is unfair. It is not right; it is inappropriate. I know dozens and dozens of artists who are utterly embarrassed about the situation in which they find themselves, and they want us to act in this sphere.
Pete Wishart
We are delighted that the Minister is on top of this and knows about the issues and difficulties, but we are more interested to hear, in the time that he has left, about what he will do to resolve it. There have been reports from the Competition and Markets Authority and the Select Committee of the hon. Member for Gosport (Dame Caroline Dinenage). Will the Government look at them constructively and bring in legislation so that this is no longer a feature of live ticket sales?
Chris Bryant
The hon. Gentleman is a terribly impatient man; I am just coming that. [Interruption.] No, we have until 7.30. He is right that we must take action on the secondary ticketing market, and we committed ourselves to doing so during the general election. We believe that those people are denying true fans the opportunity to buy tickets on the primary market and are pocketing any profit for themselves. As I said, very little of the additional revenue actually goes to artists, venues or anyone working in the live venue sector more generally. The Government are committed to putting fans back at the heart of live events, and to clamping down on unfair practices in the secondary ticketing market.
That is why we have committed to introducing new protections for consumers on ticket resales, and we will be launching a consultation in the autumn to find the best ways to address ongoing problems on the resale market. The consultation will consider a range of options, including revisiting recommendations from the Competition and Markets Authority’s 2021 report, such as putting limitations on the price of tickets listed for resale over the face value; limiting the number of tickets that individual resellers can list to the number of tickets that they can legitimately buy via the original platform; making platforms accountable for the accuracy of information about tickets that they list for sale; and ensuring that the CMA has the powers that it needs to take swift, decisive action against platforms and touts to protect consumers.
We want live events ticketing to work for UK fans. I would say that the market was made for humanity, not humanity for the market, and sometimes Government need to intervene to ensure that the market does indeed work for humanity.
John Slinger (Rugby) (Lab)
As an Oasis fan, I too was queuing endlessly, and it proved to me that badly regulated markets have no morality. The conclusion from the dynamic pricing policy in that incident was that people with more money or touts could get those tickets. I speak as someone who played in rock bands when I was a younger man, although none so famous and successful as that of the hon. Member for Perth and Kinross-shire (Pete Wishart). Live music is universal in that it reaches out to the souls of people of all backgrounds. I would be grateful for the Minister’s view on what he can do to ensure that as many people as possible can get tickets for live music.
Chris Bryant
Persuade people to do more gigs, I guess. Obviously, there are only so many tickets for certain events, but what people want to have guaranteed is that the market is not excluding them solely on the basis of price. Sometimes there is a ballot for tickets, as there is for Wimbledon, and I gather that Oasis has now introduced a partial ballot for the next round of gigs that are being advertised, but we want to look at all these issues in the round.
I should say something about the CMA announcement. Like many Members across the House, I know lots of people, including my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (John Slinger) and the Leader of the House, with stories about their process of trying to buy tickets two weekends ago for the Oasis reunion tour—I should point out that Oasis only reunites under a Labour Government. In the light of the concerns expressed by fans about the sales process, we welcome the CMA’s announcement that it has launched a formal investigation into Ticketmaster. The CMA has said that it is
“concerned that fans trying to buy Oasis tickets through Ticketmaster may not have been given clear information about ticket prices”
and has asked fans to share their experiences. Its investigation will look at whether the sale of Oasis tickets by Ticketmaster may have breached consumer protection law.
Others have greater freedom in what they can say than I do as a Minister. This is a live investigation and the CMA is an independent law enforcement body, and it is important to ensure that the independence and integrity of any investigation is protected, so, in order to avoid prejudicing the process, I am not going to comment on that investigation. I look forward to reading the CMA’s findings and I merely note that lots of people have said that they would like their money back. Following recent events, however, the Government will look at issues concerning the transparency and use of dynamic pricing in the live events sector, and we are carefully considering how that is taken forward in the light of the CMA’s announcement.
I want to talk specifically about dynamic pricing for a moment. In general terms, dynamic pricing involves a business adjusting its prices according to changing market conditions such as high and low demand. It is an established pricing strategy and it has been a feature of our live events industry for some time, at least in certain forms. As an example, I am sure that many Members will have managed to snap up cut-price tickets to popular west end shows by purchasing them on the day of the event. We are used to seeing organisers or venues slash their prices in that way in order to fill the few remaining seats.
It is also common to see early-bird tickets released at lower prices—punters essentially receive a discount on full-price tickets for an event by buying their tickets within a certain period after they go on sale or until a limited batch has been sold. Glastonbury does that, Wigmore Hall does that for people who are signed up to its programme, and for that matter, the Rhondda arts festival in Treorchy also does that. I urge people to look online and buy some tickets for next year.
In both of those scenarios, there are fans who benefit from a better deal than they might otherwise have been able to secure had they bought their tickets at another time. Equally, there will be other fans who bought their tickets at another time and had to pay a different, or indeed higher, price. Hon. Members will have their own views on all this, but I suggest it is a trade-off that most people are accustomed to, and one that we can generally accept.
Chris Bryant
We would not want half-empty venues—despite looking around the Chamber—due to tickets being priced too high, nor venues and festivals that are not economically sustainable. What we should not accept, however—I am very clear about this, as are the Government —are practices that see fans of live events blindsided by price hikes, either because they were not provided with the right information up front or because that information was not provided clearly enough. Doing so might be in breach of existing consumer law, which requires businesses to be fair and transparent in their dealings with consumers. It is the responsibility of the CMA to investigate potential breaches of consumer law arising from or involving the use of dynamic pricing methods, and to take enforcement action where appropriate. I have already referred to its investigation in this case.
It is the responsibility of Government, however, to confront the wider policy questions around the use of dynamic pricing for tickets to live events. We have already said that we will look at this issue further to establish whether consumers are adequately protected under existing law, or whether more needs to be done. The hon. Member for Gosport asked whether this means that we are going to take our eye off the ball on the secondary ticketing market—it does not. We are very clear: we have a set of manifesto commitments, and we will bring out our consultation this autumn. Once we have completed that consultation, we expect to take the necessary action that we committed to in our general election manifesto. Since most of that action is in line with what the Select Committee was advocating before the general election, I hope we might still enjoy the Committee’s support for it.
The hon. Lady is right that we will also be looking at websites: that is part of the whole panoply of action. She also effectively referred to vertical integration within the ticketing system. Of course, that has to be part of our considerations, because it is another part of making sure that the market works for humanity—for fans, artists and the creative industries—rather than all of us having to operate as slaves of the market.
The Prime Minister has said that we are committed to putting fans at the heart of music and ending extortionate resales. As I have said, we will launch a consultation this autumn to work out how best we can do that. That consultation will look at tickets for live events, and a call for evidence on the topic of price transparency, including dynamic pricing, will be sent out. That will help us understand the needs of fans and the live events industry. To be absolutely clear with the House and the hon. Lady, that will be about tickets for live events, not the whole of dynamic pricing across all industries in the UK.
The hon. Lady asked when we will respond to the grassroots venues report from May. We have been getting our feet under the table as fast as we possibly can, and I am very eager to respond to that report in swift order. I take the responsibilities of Select Committees very seriously—I sat on the Culture, Media and Sport Committee from 2001 to 2005; it is one of the most important things I have done as a Member of Parliament—so we will respond as soon as we can. It will certainly be in the autumn, and I would like it to be as soon as possible after the Committee is fully formed.
In conclusion, I would like to thank the hon. Lady for securing this debate. I am not allowed to refer to what she tried to get as urgent questions, but I have now. We have a world-class live events sector in the UK, and I am absolutely determined that fans have every opportunity to experience it at first hand.
There is nothing better than someone standing in an audience—in a crowd, along with hundreds of other people—either experiencing an artist they have never seen before and suddenly realising, “My God, that’s just pierced right through to my heart”, or going to see somebody they have seen 50 times before, having listened to the album 75 times in the past week, and having that joyful moment. They will be different artists for every single one of us, but I want far more people in this country to be able to enjoy that opportunity. I want every child to have a creative education, and I want them to have the opportunities that so many others enjoy in my constituency and every other.
I acknowledge that dynamic pricing can help match supply with demand, resulting in both higher and lower prices, but when it is used as a business model it needs to be transparent and fair, and that is what we want to ensure.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
It was wonderful to hear from two musicians, and Sir Chris Bryant has given away his true old age.
Question put and agreed to.