Winter Fuel Payment

Tuesday 10th September 2024 Commons Chamber

3.16 pm

[Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House regrets that the Government approved the use of the urgency exemption in section 173 of the Social Security Administration Act 1992 to make and lay the Social Fund Winter Fuel Payment Regulations 2024 before the Secretary of State had referred the Regulations to the Social Security Advisory Committee; further regrets that the Government decided it was not necessary to publish an impact assessment for the Regulations, despite, for example, the evidence which shows that living in a cold home increases the risk of serious illness for vulnerable people and those with disabilities and so restricting eligibility for the Winter Fuel Payment is likely to lead to increased burdens on the National Health Service; regrets that the Government made time to debate the prayer motion from the Official Opposition without the Social Security Advisory Committee’s Report, and Government response; and calls on the Government to lay those papers before Parliament without delay, and to publish a full regulatory and equality impact assessment for these Regulations.

The decision to remove winter fuel payments has come as a complete shock to millions of pensioners—pensioners on as little as £11,500 a year. We have had no adequate explanation as to why this measure is so urgent. We have had no explanation as to why the Government had to invoke the special emergency provisions that allow them to bypass the scrutiny of the Social Security Advisory Committee. We have had no explanation as to why no impact assessments were provided. This is a major policy change that will remove the entitlement for up to 10 million pensioners, including many who are already in poverty. It is a cut worth £7.5 billion over the course of this Parliament. Rushing such a policy through—without taking time to consider the impacts, ensure effective and fair implementation, and allow possible scrutiny—is impossible to justify. This is not the way to make good policy, and this is not good government.

It is worth considering the conclusions of one of the few bodies that have been afforded the opportunity to scrutinise these regulations. The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee in the Lords has been damning in its criticism of the Government’s approach, and I refer the House to my remarks in the previous debate, when I quoted the Committee at some length. As the Committee points out, such measures would normally be subject to the SSAC’s consideration. That is an important part of the process for any legislation of this nature, as I know well from my time as Work and Pensions Secretary. Conveniently, Ministers have claimed that the measure is too urgent to wait for the SSAC’s scrutiny.

We understand that the SSAC is due to consider the measure tomorrow. Can the Minister commit to the House today that the SSAC’s report, and the Government statement responding to any recommendations, will be laid before Parliament before the regulations come into force next week? As the Lords Committee has pointed out, it would seem wholly inappropriate for the SSAC’s views to be taken into account only once the regulations are already in force. In the words of the Committee,

“It remains unclear what the practical impact of any statement might be on regulations which will have already come into effect.”

If the Government do not intend to provide us with the SSAC’s observations before the House rises on Thursday, why were Members asked to consider and vote on the prayer motion against the regulations today, before the SSAC has met?

The lack of any impact assessment means that we are severely hampered in our ability to scrutinise this measure. We were told in the explanatory memorandum that:

“A full Impact Assessment has not been prepared for this instrument because there is no significant new impact on business, charities or voluntary bodies.”

This seems a bold claim to make about a measure that removes hundreds of pounds of support from some of the most vulnerable elderly households in our country.

The guidance from the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence is clear:

“For a vulnerable person, living in a cold home increases their chance of serious illness or death.”

It also notes that

“being housebound increases both the exposure to an underheated home and the cost of heating it.”

So can I ask the Minister on what basis it was concluded that there would be no significant impact from this policy on those charities and organisations that support elderly people or on the wider health and social care system? Will he now commit to the publication of a proper impact assessment?

The only basis for the urgency seems to be a claim that this measure is vital for public finances. We have even been subjected to the Leader of the House claiming that it was needed to avoid a run on the pound. I might ask the Minister to comment on that when he appears at the Dispatch Box. The only real relevance of a measure of this kind to the public finances is its impact on the Government’s fiscal rules. Those fiscal rules are based on levels of debt and borrowing at the end of the Office for Budget Responsibility’s fiscal forecast period in five years’ time. The rules that the Chancellor has claimed she will sign up to were already being met when the Government came into office, according to the OBR’s own forecasts.

The Government could have opted to bring this measure in next year, with greater time for scrutiny, better notice for pensioners, more time to drive up pension credit uptakes and perhaps time to consider whether there were much better ways of going about it. It would still have been a broken promise, and we on this side of the House would still have opposed it, but it would have been a much better way to make policy and it would still have delivered exactly the same savings at the end of the forecast period.

Ministers will claim that they needed to make immediate in-year savings, but that is based entirely on a black hole that they have confected themselves. The real reason this is being rushed is pure politics. The Government want to rush this measure through while they can try to blame it on their predecessors in order to avoid proper scrutiny. There is no need whatsoever for the haste with which this is being done.

[Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend, like me, find it inexplicable that the Government should fail to go through the proper process when their own research suggested that thousands of people could die as a result of precisely this measure? That is something that the whole House should find deeply uncomfortable.

[Mel Stride]

My right hon. Friend makes a powerful point. This is a very serious step that the Government are taking. Of all the steps that should be properly scrutinised, surely this is one of them. I remember when I was sitting on the other side of the Chamber, I could barely breathe without the cry going out that an impact assessment should be held. It is extraordinary that on such an important measure as this, affecting millions of the most vulnerable, the Labour party should be utterly silent on this issue.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

Old people die in cold homes, and they die particularly if they are very old. Does my right hon. Friend think that if the Government are not minded to change their mind entirely, they might look at those aged over 80? Those people are in receipt of the higher rate of winter fuel payment, and paragraph 3 of the regulations points out that there is a difference between those over 80 and those under 80. That might be one way that the Government could make this slightly less worse than it otherwise is.

[Mel Stride]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his intervention. It has been suggested that the Government are examining ways of ameliorating some of the harshest effects of this policy, and that might be one of the things they consider. On that particular point, we cannot escape the fact that, whatever age people are, over two thirds of those who are currently pensioners below the poverty line will lose their winter fuel payments under the current arrangements.

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

I have the honour to represent the most remote, the most sparsely populated and the coldest constituency. The Secretary of State, in responding to my hon. Friend the Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain), said earlier that the Government would try to maximise the take-up of pension credit, and I accept that, but would they accept that sheer remoteness and sheer distance can militate against people taking up this offer? I ask the Government, via the right hon. Gentleman, to please look at this issue, because it means an awful lot to my constituents.

[Mel Stride]

I am sure that those on the Government Front Bench will have heard the hon. Gentleman’s intervention.

The reality is that the Government want to rush this through so that they can blame it on their predecessor and avoid proper scrutiny. There is no need whatsoever for the haste with which this is being done, other than to meet the political ends of the Labour party. They are ripping the plaster off and hoping that the country will have forgotten by the time of the next general election. That is at the heart of it, but we will not forget. We would not have been given the opportunity to debate and vote on this measure without significant pressure from the Opposition and the wider public. This is nothing to do with fiscal responsibility and everything to do with political expediency—no scrutiny, no impact assessment, no notice. This is an appalling way to govern.

15:26

[The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (James Murray)]

This is a serious topic and we know from the debate earlier this afternoon that it is one on which Members across this House and people across this country have strong feelings. We understand that. This is a difficult decision to have to take. By means-testing winter fuel payments, we know that we will be ending future payments to most pensioners while maintaining our steadfast commitment to protecting those in greatest need. But although they do not like to be reminded of it, Conservative Members know exactly why we need to take this step. Because it was Conservative Members—and, indeed, former Members of this House who have now been voted out by the British public—who did such damage to our country’s economy and the public finances. The legacy of the last—

[Dame Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is the second Government Minister we have heard from the Dispatch Box today, yet only moments ago we saw the Chancellor sitting on the Front Bench. It was the Chancellor who chose to spend billions on setting up Great British Energy. It was the Chancellor who chose to spend billions giving pay rises to their union paymasters. It was the Chancellor—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)]

Order. I thank the hon. Lady, but she will be aware that that is not a point of order; it is more of a speech that she is seeking to make. Perhaps she will find an opportunity to contribute in the debate.

[James Murray]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member who just intervened, and indeed everyone on that side of the House, might like to reflect on what the legacy of the last Government truly was. It was one of irresponsible overspending, of uncosted commitment after uncosted commitment, and of Ministers running away from taking difficult decisions. As a direct consequence, when we came to power we were faced with a £22 billion black hole in the public finances for this year alone.

[Paul Holmes (Hamble Valley) (Con)]

I am genuinely grateful to the Minister for giving way. He is a Minister at the Treasury, so I am hoping he will be able to outline some of the facts and answer my question. He will outline today that the saving made by cutting the winter fuel payment is £1.1 billion. If everybody accepted the means-testing that he is proposing, it would cost £3.3 billion, so can he outline to the House, despite the bluster that he has just made about saving money for the great British people, how it will save money when it will cost more under his proposals?

[James Murray]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. The announced savings include an assumption of an increased take-up of pension credit, which is in line with the highest levels ever achieved. Frankly, if more people are taking up pension credit when they are eligible for it, we should welcome it because it means that support is being targeted at those in greatest need.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[James Murray]

I am going to make some progress.

The Opposition did not like to be reminded of their legacy when they were in government, but let us have a look, shall we? What do they have to show for their years of reckless overspending? A failed asylum system, prisons at breaking point, more than 1 million people waiting for council homes, 4 million children growing up in poverty, and more than 7.5 million people on NHS waiting lists. This Government and every Member of this House who stood on my party’s manifesto were elected to turn things around.

[Kit Malthouse (North West Hampshire) (Con)]

Yesterday, in the other place, the Transport Minister cast doubt on the continuation of travel concessions for pensioners, which has caused significant alarm in my constituency and others. Notwithstanding the discussion we are having today, could the Minister reassure us that travel concessions for pensioners will continue under a Labour Government?

[James Murray]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention. The Chancellor will take all decisions in the Budget on 30 October—[Interruption.] Let me make one important point to him as we approach the Budget on 30 October: we know there are going to be difficult decisions that we have to take in the Budget and, frankly, that is a direct consequence of the decisions taken by him and his colleagues when they were in government.

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

As he is a Treasury Minister, I wonder whether he could help me with this question. How many of the pensioners who will lose the winter fuel allowance today receive less than the average train driver the Government have just given a pay rise to?

[James Murray]

I understand the political point that the hon. Lady is trying to make. But let me be clear. If she is talking about pensioners, the foundation of state support for pensioners is the state pension, which is why the Government have committed to maintaining the triple lock for the duration of this Parliament.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[James Murray]

I am going to make some progress.

The triple lock means that pensioners are receiving £900 more this year. Figures released this morning indicate that they may get well over £400 more next year. Over the course of this Parliament, they will get £1,700 more under the state pension. That is the foundation of state support for pensioners.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[James Murray]

I am going to make some progress.

We have seen clearly how Conservative Members do not like to be reminded of their legacy in government, of the mess in which they left the economy, our public services and the rest of our country after their 14 years in office. This Government and every Labour Member were elected to turn things around.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[James Murray]

I am going to make some progress.

We are under no illusions. We know it will be a slow and difficult process when the damage goes so deep, but we are determined to fix the foundations of our country so that, on the bedrock of financial stability and fiscal responsibility, we can get our economy growing after 14 years under the Conservatives.

[Dave Doogan (Angus and Perthshire Glens) (SNP)]

I thank the Minister for giving way on the point about fiscal responsibility. I am not sure of the morality of trying to balance this country’s fiscal books on the backs of pensioners. He referenced the manifesto on which the Labour party stood at the election. “No austerity under Labour” was said in Scotland, so what should the 37 Scottish Labour MPs do in this vote? Should they bow down to the Chancellor, or should they stand up for their Scottish constituents?

[James Murray]

Every Labour Member was elected on a promise to restore economic stability and fiscal responsibility to our country, and it is on that basis that we will get the economy growing to make people across the country better off and to put our public services on a sustainable footing. I remind the hon. Gentleman that winter heating assistance is a devolved matter in Scotland. The Scottish Government intend to legislate to introduce a means-tested payment this winter which is equivalent to the winter fuel payment in England and Wales.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[James Murray]

I have taken several interventions, so I will make some progress.

The point of this debate is to focus on why we have to take difficult economic decisions, even if they risk us being unpopular. We know that the universal application of winter fuel payments was already recognised as unfair. In the face of our dire economic inheritance, it is simply unsustainable.

We should be clear that, when the winter fuel payment was introduced in 1997, a higher percentage of pensioners than people of working age were in poverty. That is no longer the case. Put simply, there are now pensioners receiving winter fuel payments who do not need them and that is a reality we cannot afford.

Let me put it in financial terms. Over a quarter of pensioners have wealth of more than £1 million, half have wealth of over £500,000 and a fifth of pensioner households have gross incomes equivalent to £41,600 a year. That is why it is right to means-test winter fuel payment.

[Dame Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

Pensioners in my constituency will be saddened by the way the Minister is caricaturing pensioners as wealthy and not in need of this winter fuel support. Age UK has said that, in the Gosport constituency alone, 15,000 pensioners stand to lose their winter fuel payment. These are not wealthy people; they are people who, in many cases, are just outside the pension credit limit and are hanging on by their fingertips. Does he agree that caricaturing them as wealthy and not in need is unbelievably insulting?

[James Murray]

I think the hon. Lady unintentionally misunderstood my point. I will put the question back to her. Does she feel that pensioners who have wealth of over £1 million or who earn more than £41,600 a year should get the winter fuel payment in the context of the financial circumstances? The argument we are making is that, given the dire economic situation we face and given our dire inheritance, we should means-test the winter fuel payment.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[James Murray]

I will make some progress, because it is important to explain why we are choosing to means-test the winter fuel payment. Means testing will allow us to make sure that those in the greatest need still receive the help they need. We will make sure that all pensioners continue to benefit from the triple lock, and we will start to deal with the shocking state of the public finances that we have inherited.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[James Murray]

I am going to make some progress, as I have taken many interventions already.

Under our approach, those eligible for pension credit will continue to receive winter fuel payments. We want to target winter fuel payments to those on the lowest incomes, which is why we are linking the payment to eligibility for pension credit and other qualifying income-related benefits and tax credits. That is the right approach to help those on the lowest incomes. We are determined to make it as effective as possible by making sure that people who are eligible for pension credit make a claim.

[Jamie Stone]

The point I made to the shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Central Devon (Mel Stride), is a fair one. Distance and remoteness militate against take-up. People living in very remote hamlets in the highlands do not necessarily perceive the Department that they should. Can I have an undertaking from the Minister that the Government will look at this issue?

[James Murray]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comment, and I know that my colleagues are aware of this issue. In fact, it is one reason why the automatic payment of pension credit and other benefits is so important. For instance, the merging of housing benefit and pension credit would help to overcome some of the problems. It would help some of the people in the situation he describes. That merger of housing benefit and pension credit was first mooted in 2012, and was delayed several times by the previous Government—I think they intended to leave it until 2028. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is looking at that as a matter of great priority, to ensure that people get the help that they deserve.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[James Murray]

I am going to make some progress.

The important point to focus on in this debate is making sure that everyone eligible for pension credit takes up that offer, not only so they receive the benefit of pension credit, but so that we can better target the winter fuel payments, given the financial inheritance that we have. We estimate that 880,000 pensioners are missing out on pension credit to which they are entitled, and frankly the Conservatives failed to act on that for years. That is why it is so important that we are now conducting a campaign to make sure that as many people as possible make a claim.

Our approach is already showing signs of success. The Government have received around 38,500 pension credit claims in the five weeks since the announcement on 29 July. That is more than double the number in the previous five weeks, and we will continue to do all we can to encourage pensioners who are eligible to apply for pension credit. We have used a wide range of media to reach pensioners and key stakeholders, and have been working with voluntary organisations such as Age UK and Citizens Advice, local authorities and the devolved Governments to raise awareness through their networks and channels. The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is taking the further unprecedented step of writing to 120,000 pensioner households who are in receipt of housing benefit but who are not yet claiming the pension credit that they are likely to be entitled to.

Our national pension credit campaign will run right through until the application deadline on 21 December.

[Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)]

On 11 February 2021, the temperature in Braemar in my constituency sank to minus 23°. Some 17,000 pensioners there will lose their winter fuel allowance through a decision taken by this Labour Government. Can the Minister explain to those pensioners in one of the coldest constituencies in the country why they have to surrender that important support at the same time as the Government have found £11 billion to give pay rises to their union paymasters?

[James Murray]

I would be interested to understand why the hon. Gentleman is backing a candidate to lead his party who supports the means-testing of the winter fuel payment. He might want to have a conversation with that candidate before he starts criticising our approach of targeting support at those in greatest need. The critical point is that the combination of the state pension rising under the triple lock with those in greatest need getting winter fuel payments alongside pension credit, not to mention the extension of the household support fund, means that the right measures are in place to give all pensioners the support they need.

Opposition Members want to know why the legislation is being progressed urgently. I will be really clear: it is urgent because we need to deal urgently with the £22 billion black hole—the huge in-year spending pressure—that we inherited from the Government that they ran. It is crucial that we act quickly to restore responsibility to our public finances and stability to our economy. On top of that, it was important that we made sure that regulations were in place at the start of the qualifying week for winter fuel payments, while wasting no time in doing all we can to raise pension credit take-up.

[Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)]

We have heard that the Transport Minister yesterday could give no assurance to pensioners about their transport concessions. Last week, I asked the Deputy Prime Minister about the single person council tax discount. There is a very real prospect that pensioners could lose even more than £300—another £300 or £400. Will the Exchequer Secretary take this opportunity to reassure pensioners that there is no way that the Government will remove the single person discount from the council tax? It would be politically good for him and the Labour party, and it would be enormously important for people who need to hear some reassurance at this time.

[James Murray]

The right hon. Gentleman will not be surprised to hear me say that the Chancellor will take all decisions in the Budget. However, he might like to reflect on the record of his party in office on encouraging take-up of pension credit. We have been painfully aware since taking office how little the Conservatives did to increase take-up of pension credit during their 14 years in office. That is why it is so urgent for us to make progress in getting those eligible to sign up for pension credit. By doing so, they will get pension credit, which they may have been missing out on for years under the Conservatives, and they will continue to receive the winter fuel payment.

Pensioners may well be angry at the Conservatives for how little they did to get people to sign up for pension credit while they were in office. Pensioners may well be angry at the Conservatives for leaving the country with a legacy of a £22 billion black hole in the public finances.

We on the Government Benches are committed to protecting the triple lock. That will mean that pensioners on the full new state pension, who have received an extra £900 this year, will, pending the uprating review by the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions this autumn, receive a boost that could be worth well more than £400, so by the end of this Parliament they could be receiving around £1,700 more than they do today.

Conservative Members are keen to play politics with the tough decisions that this Government are taking. They are desperate to take attention away from the fact that, as people across this country know, it is the Conservatives who are to blame for the economic mess we have gained. They created a mess and now they want to criticise us for cleaning it up. If they had governed more responsibly, they might not have been sitting on the Opposition Benches, in opposition to a Government who are fixing the foundations they left to rot.

[Andrew Pakes (Peterborough) (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that the only shameful thing in this debate is the legacy that the Government were left? It forced the new Government—[Interruption.] The reality that 800,000 pensioners are not receiving pension credit is a shameful legacy. If Conservative Members wanted to show humility and learn from their party’s record in government, they would acknowledge that they are the ones who crashed the economy, left the NHS in a way that pensioners cannot get to see a doctor, and broke NHS dentistry. Does the Minister agree that it is our job to fix the economy so that we can keep on helping pensioners?

[James Murray]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Frankly, it is time for Conservative Members to recognise and accept what they have done to this country, and to show some contrition and accept responsibility. However, no matter what the Conservatives choose to do, we are getting on with the tough decisions that are necessary in government. By changing the winter fuel payment and making it means-tested, we are beginning to take the necessary steps to address the black hole they created, while protecting the most vulnerable in society.

The Prime Minister has said that we must be prepared to be unpopular if we are to govern responsibly, which means facing up to tough challenges and tackling them head-on. The motion laid by the Opposition sets out several “regrets”, but they have never once shown regret for all the reckless decisions they took and the damage they did to our public services, public finances and economy. Our task now in government is to fix the mess they made and to give our country the chance of the better future we deserve.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)]

I call the spokesperson for the Liberal Democrat party.

15:47

[Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Liberal Democrats welcome the opportunity for this debate. We will continue to call on the Government to change course on their planned cut to winter fuel payments. We know the Government have inherited a mess, and we know that at the core of that mess is a legacy of reckless economic mismanagement by the previous Conservative Government.

However, that cannot be allowed to serve as a cover for measures that cause suffering for the most vulnerable in our society. Earlier this afternoon, Liberal Democrats supported the prayer motion to annul the social fund winter fuel payment regulation. Stripping support from many of the poorest pensioners, just when energy bills are set to rise again this winter, is the wrong thing to do, and we have tabled our own early-day motion to reject these plans. It should be noted that the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee in the other place has said that it is

“unconvinced by the reasons given for the urgency attached to laying these Regulations and particularly concerned that this precludes appropriate scrutiny”.

We are supportive of this motion and particularly of the point that there should have been greater scrutiny of the Government’s decision to cut winter fuel payments.

It is well established that there are strong links between living in a cold home and an increase in the risk of serious illness for vulnerable people and those with disabilities.

[Sorcha Eastwood (Lagan Valley) (Alliance)]

I am extremely disappointed by the lack of creativity in this Government. I agree entirely with the hon. Lady that there is a legacy of unfunded promises, but it is not for my constituents in Lagan Valley to bear the burden. Does she agree that they do not have broad shoulders?

[Sarah Olney]

I thank the hon. Member for her intervention and for stating so passionately the case that we on the Liberal Democrat Benches are making in this debate. The Government should have done far more to understand the likely consequences of restricting eligibility for the winter fuel payment, and how that would translate into increased burdens on the national health service.

I and my Liberal Democrat colleagues have listened to our constituents and heard from countless pensioners who are worried about how they will afford their energy bills this winter. Since these cuts have been announced, I have been inundated with local people expressing their disappointment at this decision. That is why the Liberal Democrats have tabled early-day motion 121, calling on the Government to withdraw these plans, and it is why we voted in favour of the prayer motion earlier today. We believe that it is simply wrong to remove winter fuel payments from millions of struggling pensioners.

[Dr Kieran Mullan (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)]

I recognise the comments that the hon. Member has made about the economic inheritance, but does she not agree that, compared with the situation that we managed in coalition with the Liberal Democrats in 2010, the Labour Government are in a better position? They have unemployment lower than we inherited, employment higher than we inherited, the deficit lower than we inherited, and economic growth faster than we inherited. We, in partnership with the Liberal Democrats, managed to keep winter fuel payments in those circumstances. Does she not agree that Labour should do the same?

[Sarah Olney]

I thank the hon. Member for his intervention, but it is important to reflect on the disastrous legacy of the mini-Budget and the circumstances that many people continue to struggle with thanks to higher interest rates on their mortgage payments. Certainly, from the perspective of my constituents, that casts a much longer shadow, which the winter fuel payment cuts will do nothing to ameliorate.

Last week, I asked the Chancellor if she would give her full support to measures to boost the uptake of pension credit. I welcomed her commitment to work with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to maximise the take-up of pension credit by bringing forward the administration of housing benefit and pension credit—

[Bobby Dean (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)]

We have spoken a lot about the take-up of pension credit in this debate already, but it is important to say that 800,000 pensioners—I think that is what the Minister said—are still not taking it up. Those people will, by definition, be harder to reach and the most vulnerable. I do not understand how the Government can, in good conscience, take away this guaranteed benefit at a time where there is no certainty whatsoever about their being able to get the other people signed up to pension credit in time.

[Sarah Olney]

I welcome my hon. Friend’s intervention. He makes an important point, although I would say that I welcomed the Chancellor’s commitment last week to work with older people’s charities and local authorities to raise awareness of pension credit. None the less, he is exactly right that many people will have this benefit taken away without knowing that there is pension credit for which they are eligible and should claim.

As the Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee has highlighted, the DWP has assumed that the uptake of pension credit will increase by just five percentage points, and that will still exclude around 700,000 pensioners. Have the Government made a proper assessment of what the impact will be if uptake of pension credits increases by more than that amount? I continue to call for assurance that the Government will ensure that all those eligible for pension credit claim both the benefit itself and the winter fuel payment.

We will be voting against the scrapping of this stream of support for pensioners. Although we recognise that the Government face difficult choices given the appalling mess left by the Conservative party, the Liberal Democrats will continue to advocate for the necessity of winter fuel payments. The mismanagement of our economy by the outgoing Conservative Government has left formidable challenges and we understand that undoing that damage will not be easy.

[Seamus Logan (Aberdeenshire North and Moray East) (SNP)]

Whatever fiscal pressures are being addressed here today, we have heard about the additional deaths that could possibly result from this measure. Does the hon. Member share my disgust at some Members celebrating the result of the previous vote as if it were a football match?

[Sarah Olney]

I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. I am afraid that I cannot comment because I did not see that, but I thank him for raising it.

It is not right for the consequences of the decisions of the outgoing Conservative Government and this burden to be carried by some of the most vulnerable in our society. Those with the broadest shoulders should carry a heavier burden. Liberal Democrats have set out detailed proposals to tackle fuel poverty and we are calling on the Government to look at them very seriously. That includes steps such as: launching an emergency home energy upgrade programme, with free insulation and heat pumps for low-income households; introducing a social tariff for the most vulnerable to provide targeted energy discounts for vulnerable households; and implementing a proper windfall tax on the super-profits of oil and gas producers and traders, to raise vital revenue. We have also called on the Government to tackle the wider cost of living crisis, including by investing an extra £1 billion a year in our farmers to bring down food prices, increasing the carer’s allowance and expanding it to more carers, and removing the two-child limit and the benefit cap.

More than 2 million pensioners are currently living in poverty. They have had a tremendously difficult time during the cost of living crisis, dealing with record high energy bills and eye-watering food costs. That is why the Liberal Democrats are proud to have introduced the triple lock when we were in government, lifting countless vulnerable pensioners out of poverty, and why we are strongly committed to ensuring it remains in place. Pensioners deserve to have the support and the security of knowing that the triple lock will be there in the long term.

We acknowledge the dire economic situation the new Government have inherited, yet we have heard warning calls from sector representatives, including Age UK, Disability Rights UK and many pensioners themselves, regarding the damage that this cut might cause. As the Government try to clear up the Conservative party’s mess, they must ensure that that does not come at the expense of pensioners and families who will struggle to heat their homes this winter.

[Stuart Anderson (South Shropshire) (Con)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker, you will know the rules far better than me, but this is a really important debate and I just want to ensure that the House is quorate. Can you tell me how many people have to be on the Government Benches for a debate? There are fewer than 20 Labour MPs who have decided to find this a worthwhile debate to come to, and I want to make sure we have enough people here for this debate, because it is really serious.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)]

As the hon. Gentleman will know, the House is not counted, and the matter of quorum is not a relevant consideration at this time and therefore we shall move on.

15:56

[Peter Swallow (Bracknell) (Lab)]

I was proud to be elected on a manifesto that committed to delivering economic stability, security and growth. After 14 years of Tory recklessness with our economy and after the disastrous Liz Truss mini-Budget drove up inflation, food bills and mortgage repayments and pushed my constituents to the brink, the public voted for change. That change must start with getting our economy back on its feet.

When the previous Labour Government left office, Trussell Trust food banks were giving out 40,000 food parcels a year. Last year they gave out 3 million. When we on the Labour side of the House talk about the recklessness of the previous Government, it is not academic. We are talking about taxpayers’ money being poured into ideological gimmicks while children are going to school hungry, working adults are one rent rise away from homelessness and a broken NHS is stalling productivity and failing those who most rely on public services, including our pensioners. We face a £22 billion black hole in the public finances that they covered up and walked away from.

Stability means bringing the economy and the country back from the brink to which the Conservative party knowingly pushed it. No one doubts that this policy is tough, and it is not a measure we want to take, but we have been left a huge bill to pay. Means-testing the winter fuel allowance will allow us to support those pensioners most in need as we take the difficult steps we have to take to right the ship.

Members across this House know that in our communities there are too many pensioners struggling. That is why I welcome this Government’s commitment to the triple lock, under which the state pension has risen by £900 this year and will rise by more than £450 in April. I also support the extension of the warm home discount, worth £150 for more than 1 million low-wage pensioners.

[Graham Stuart]

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the Tory triple lock was introduced by the Tories, precisely in order to deal with the legacy left by the previous Labour Government when, unless I have got this number wrong, there was a lower take-up of pension credit than there is today—we raised that. The triple lock raised pensioner incomes, and the first act of the Labour Government, of whom he is clearly aiming to be a loyal member, is to take £300 away from people who really need it.

[Peter Swallow]

Three million food parcels were distributed last year. That is the legacy of the Conservative Government. And the triple lock that the Conservatives purport to defend? They broke it in 2022.

I also support the extension of the household support fund to help the families most in need this winter, as well as the Government’s commitment to introducing tougher regulation to the energy market, which has let customers down for too long. I am working hard with Bracknell Forest council to ensure that pensioners in the Bracknell constituency who are in need but not claiming the support to which they are entitled are identified and encouraged to get help. I urge any pensioner who is concerned about their finances to go to Age UK’s benefits calculator to see what support they may be entitled to.

[Dr Ben Spencer (Runnymede and Weybridge) (Con)]

What did the hon. Gentleman say to pensioners during the election campaign?

[Peter Swallow]

I said that the Labour party would restore the broken economy inherited from the Conservative party.

In the long term, there is only one permanent solution to ending fuel poverty: we must end our dependence on volatile foreign energy markets and deliver lasting energy security. The Conservative party failed to do that in Government, leaving energy bills higher for every household, including those most in need. That is why this Government’s plan to create GB Energy, a new national energy company, is vital. It will bring energy supply back into the hands of the British public and help to get prices back under control. That is the long-term solution to fuel poverty: home-grown, British-controlled power.

[Dr Caroline Johnson]

Roughly 13,000 people in the hon. Gentleman’s Bracknell constituency will not get the winter fuel allowance this year as a result of the changes that he has just voted for. How many of them does he estimate will struggle to pay their bills?

[Peter Swallow]

I have already set out the support that I want to see, as well as the support that the Government have put in place to help pensioners in my constituency and to bring energy bills down in the long term, which will help all households in Bracknell and across the country. That is a really important first step on the road to growth. Because of the triple lock, a growing economy means growing pensions and growing support for pensioners in need.

Future prosperity does not fall out of the sky. We have to create the conditions for it, and those conditions are sensible spending, bringing debt under control, and encouraging investment. To do those things, we must dig ourselves out of this financial hole, and that means tough choices. This policy is a difficult step—a step that I did not want to take—but it is a step away from the brink towards stability, security and growth. That is why I back it.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)]

Order. I have no choice but to put a three-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches before I hand over to the next speaker, which I am very sorry to do. Members will be aware that more than 40 of you wish to take part. I call Priti Patel.

16:02

[Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)]

Who would have thought that one of the first acts of this awful, cruel and ideological Labour Government would be to assault the nation’s pensioners by removing winter fuel payments? Let us be candid: the nation’s pensioners are falling victim to an ideological decision—a betrayal by Labour as it succumbs to shovelling gross amounts of public spending into the pockets of many of its union paymasters.

It is quite interesting—[Interruption.] No. I have a time limit; the hon. Member has already spoken. It is interesting that there has been so little transparency around finances and the fiscal choices that the Government have chosen to make. There has been no impact assessment, no honesty around the cost of all this to the Exchequer in the long run, and nothing about the administration of the household support fund. How have Labour Ministers made the spurious claim that they have had no choice in this decision? Bear in mind that the Government—so desperate are they to justify this brutal cut—claimed a couple of weeks ago that there would be a “run on the pound” without the decision, which is just extraordinary and speaks to their fiscal ineptitude.

I have a series of questions on the mitigations. First, it is right to encourage more pensioners to take up pension credit where they are entitled to it. I know from my time at the Department for Work and Pensions that many on the Conservative Benches have spent years encouraging pensioners to take up pension credit. We should know how the targeting will work and what the cost will be.

Secondly, in recent days the Government have been spinning, yet again, that those affected by the loss of the winter fuel payment will benefit from an estimated £400 rise in the state pension. Will the Minister confirm what the net real-terms impact will be on overall household incomes for those who are losing the benefit, and will he confirm how it will add up over time and what the actual cost will be?

Thirdly, concerns have been raised throughout the day that if pensioners cannot afford to heat their homes there will be a serious impact on health. We do not have an impact assessment, so can we have some honesty now? What are the costs to the NHS? The Government owe it to the British people to be honest about this. We have heard that the household support fund will be extended, but how exactly will that £500 million be funded? Who will pay for it?

Finally, there are so many unanswered questions. The Government must be honest and answer them. There has been a lack of transparency, with no impact assessment whatsoever. It is right that we hold the Government to account and that they are honest with British pensioners about their intentions, even on the future of the triple lock.

16:05

[Josh Simons (Makerfield) (Lab)]

I am glad that we are having this debate. Perhaps the Opposition and parts of the media are bored facing something that they have not seen for years—Government Benches packed full of Members representing all parts of the United Kingdom who respect each other and support the Government—because they have stoked a frenzy that I fear is at risk of obscuring the most important arguments for the changes that we are debating.

Yes, there is the economic argument, which matters. As the Office for Budget Responsibility and Institute for Fiscal Studies have recognised, this Government inherited public finances in a shocking state, in

“one of the largest in-year overspends outside of the pandemic”

in history—or, as one Member put it earlier, an “accounting error”. Unlike the rapid succession of Conservative Chancellors, our Chancellor has levelled with the British people and been transparent about the nation’s finances. Restoring stability means hard choices. This is not the first, and it will not be the last.

However, it is not the economic case that I wish to emphasise today, but the principled one. Let me make a general point about the arguments we make in politics. Sometimes we politicians can be too quick to hold up our hands and say that we have no choice—the lawyers required this or the economists required that. That can leave voters frustrated: “Why vote if the people we vote for are not in charge, but lawyers or economists are? Can the people we elect not control the things that affect our lives?” To restore trust in politics, we must show that politics matters. That is why it is important that we articulate what we do in terms of principles and choices.

To govern is to choose. Targeting winter fuel payments is a choice. However difficult and necessary, it is the right choice for two principled reasons. The first is about the moral purpose of the policy. Gordon Brown designed the winter fuel payment to ensure that nobody was at home cold because they could not afford to turn on their heating. It was a time when state pension rises were miserly and, as many found, insufficient to heat their homes. But let me note that pensioners were better off after the last Labour Government. One million were lifted out of poverty by 2004. The changes we are debating today do not move from that position. In a time when the state pension has risen by £900, and will rise again by as much as £400, the changes target the winter fuel payment based on the principle of need. That is the right principle.

Let me be clear: I do not believe that taxpayers—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)]

Order. There is a three-minute time limit.

16:08

[Sir Roger Gale (Herne Bay and Sandwich) (Con)]

My wife, Suzy, is over retirement age. She is also in full-time employment. I am over retirement age. I am also in full-time employment and a higher rate taxpayer. I have always believed that the winter fuel allowance should be means-tested, because while we give it to charity, there are other, perhaps younger people—such as the young and disabled, who cannot run around and keep warm—who could use the money. I have believed that for probably as long as the now Chancellor of the Exchequer has believed it.

Let us be clear: this has nothing to do with black holes in the economy, which Laura Kuenssberg identified while interviewing the Prime Minister on Sunday as being largely contributed to by inflationary pay increases for the unions—for railway workers and junior doctors. This is a policy dreamed up in 2014 by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer—that is on the record. It is a policy made in No. 11 Downing Street and endorsed by the nation’s undertaker in No. 10. It is cruel, it is heartless, and it is going to lead to deaths this winter, so while I believe that there should be a means test, the manner in which the Government are going about it is profoundly wrong and deeply flawed and will cause untold-of hardship. It has got to change.

[Stuart Anderson]

My right hon. Friend is giving a moving and compassionate speech. Will he tell us where, specifically, the responsibility for this cruel policy lies?

[Sir Roger Gale]

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s question, because it does not lie with the hon. Member for Ealing North (James Murray). It lies with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and with the Prime Minister, both of whom should be on the Government Front Bench this afternoon, but neither of whom have been present during the debates—although the Chancellor did come in to vote, and then nipped out again. That in itself is shameful. I abhor the fact that there are politicians sitting on the Labour Benches who are quite prepared to fight to the last drop of somebody else’s political blood, because that is what is happening this afternoon.

[Rachel Taylor (North Warwickshire and Bedworth) (Lab)]

You say that our Chancellor and the Prime Minister are not here on the Government Benches, but where are your leader and your shadow Chancellor? They are not here either. You talk about means-testing being right: we have a difficult financial situation and difficult decisions that we have to take, so the right hon. Gentleman seems to agree with us on that.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)]

Order. I appreciate that passions are running high this afternoon, and that there are many new Members in the House, but when we use “you” and “your”, we are referring to the Chair. There are good reasons for why we direct debate through the Chair. Please can Members remember that?

[Sir Roger Gale]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker—I stand chastised. The Leader of the Opposition was in the Chamber earlier this afternoon, but I saw no sign whatsoever of the Prime Minister. However, the answer to the hon. Lady remains the same: the responsibility for this policy lies directly with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister, and they are going to live to regret it.

[Mr Gideon Amos (Taunton and Wellington) (LD)]

The right hon. Gentleman has expressed the principle that means-testing could be accommodated. Does he agree that many of those who have written to us as Members of Parliament also sympathise with the principle that means-testing could and should come in at some point in the future? The manner in which this proposal is being brought in, before the 880,000 pensioners who are eligible for pension credit are registered for it, is the problem that particularly affects the 21,000 pensioners in Taunton and Wellington.

[Sir Roger Gale]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I have made the point, and will make it again, that I have no quarrel with the principle. I have a huge quarrel with the manner in which this policy is being implemented, because it is cruel and heartless. It is going to leave thousands, if not millions, of pensioners literally out—or more probably in—in the cold this winter, and some of them will die as a result. It is not necessary, it does not have to be done, and it will not save money, so there has to be a rethink.

Just to conclude, I detect a degree of arrogance on the Government Benches this afternoon. The fact that there are only about 30 Members on those Benches speaks volumes to those outside who thought that Members were going to come and hear this matter being seriously debated. There seems to be a belief that the next election is five years away. The next general election may be five years away, but the next election is next May, and those voting in the county council elections in May—those pensioners and their families—will not forget this.

16:14

[Sam Rushworth (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

I have not written a speech—I have written down a few points—because, like many colleagues, I have spent the past week agonising over how to vote today. In the end, I decided to vote with my conscience, which meant that I voted with the Government. [Interruption.] Conservative Members laugh, but I will tell them why.

Today I listened sincerely to contributions from Conservative Members, and this is what I have learned. First, there were several interventions in which they criticised the Government’s efforts to improve the take-up of pension credit. [Interruption.] Well, they did—Members can go and read Hansard if they want to dispute that. There have been several criticisms of that, almost to the point that, when they talk about who is vulnerable, I wonder whether they have a blind spot for some of our most vulnerable constituents.

Secondly, I have learned about Conservative Members’ disdain for hard-working people, because we have learned that, in their spending plans, they intended to reject the pay recommendations of their own pay body.

[Harriet Cross (Gordon and Buchan) (Con)]

Does the hon. Member appreciate that some of the hardest working people are the pensioners we are now standing up for, and who we are trying to stop freezing in the winter to come and those ahead?

[Sam Rushworth]

I absolutely do, and Members may recall that I came to this House last week and asked the Chancellor a question about my own constituents. I represent the snowiest and coldest constituency in England, and I have had deep concerns about those pensioners. However, I have studied the detail and listened to pensioners in my constituency. In the last week alone, it has turned out that several people who have come forward to me expressing concerns about this policy are people who could be claiming pension credit but are not.

I want to make a broader point about the winter fuel allowance. The winter fuel allowance was introduced under the last Labour Government in 1997, when the state pension was £3,247 a year. If that had increased at the rate of inflation, today it would be £6,200 a year. Thankfully, it is more than twice that. [Hon. Members: “Because of us.”] Conservative Members say that it is because of them, but, again, they may want to look at the record. In fact, under both the previous Labour Government and the previous Conservative Government, the state pension increased at above the rate of inflation, and I absolutely welcome that. The winter fuel allowance, however, has not increased for 20 years. So the winter fuel allowance, in real terms, has become less and less year after year. The point I am making is that we need to consider our people. If the Conservatives’ argument is that, after 14 years in government, people on the full state pension are £100 away from death and destitution, what have they been doing for 14 years?

We need a new settlement for the economy, and this Government are actually answering the concerns of my constituents, who live in cold, stone-built, badly insulated homes, and who lost out when the previous Government chose to cut the funding available to insulate homes. This Government are setting up Great British Energy, which will help to cut bills over the long term. People are poor and struggling to pay their bills not because we do not give away enough taxpayers’ money in small pockets of benefits here and there. What we need are higher wages and better pensions, and I have been convinced by the Chancellor’s arguments that, under this Government, the pension will rise at or above the rate of inflation year on year, while energy bills will fall.

Finally, my constituents would not thank me if I did not take steps to stabilise the economy, because we need to get NHS waiting lists down and we need—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)]

Order.

16:18

[Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)]

It is interesting to follow the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Sam Rushworth), and to follow the angst-ridden journey with his conscience to ensure that he could abandon those in most need of their winter fuel allowance in this coming winter. It was good of him to highlight the Tory triple lock, which did take the absolutely woeful state of the pension left by the last Labour Government and transform it into a sounder one today. However, even in these conditions—where, thanks to the Tories, pensioners are much better off than they used to be—there are people, and this came from Labour research a few years ago, who will die, according to that research, if this policy, which he in good conscience thinks he should vote for today, is implemented. That is the truth.

That takes us to one key issue that we have been discussing today, which is process. The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland seems like an honourable and decent man—at least he used the word “conscience” in this debate, rather than purely political theatre. The point is that when something could lead to thousands of people dying, the Government have not done what they are legally obliged to do—they used some rare exemption requirement—and produce an impact assessment. So we do not know. People who in good conscience want to do the right thing, like the hon. Gentleman, do not know what the impact is. If it was in front of us, and if it validated the Labour party’s previous analysis, and showed that 4,000 people could be going to die, could he really support the measure in good conscience for £1.1 billion when we spend more than £1,200 billion?

The £22 billion black hole is a sort of political theatre from a Government who said they were not going to do politics as theatre and performance, and that they were going to do it properly. In fact, this is a miniscule amount. It is significant, but it is miniscule in the overall scheme of things. A choice has been made and rammed through on a timetable that is not in order and does not follow the normal and proper way of things or allow new Members of Parliament, like the hon. Gentleman, to look at the issue, weigh it up and come to the right conclusion. It is truly shameful. Peter, one of my constituents, is one of 882 people who signed a petition in my constituency against this measure. He and his wife are £12 over the pension credit limit.

[Dr Zubir Ahmed (Glasgow South West) (Lab)]

The right hon. Gentleman is citing concerns about the safety of vulnerable groups, and I wonder if he might reflect on the past 14 years, and that he enabled a Government that led to the decay and decline of every single public service. When public services decay and decline, that disproportionately affects vulnerable groups.

[Graham Stuart]

The hon. Gentleman knows full well that that is not true. I used to chair the Education Committee, so I know a little about that, and standards were lifted—[Interruption.] Look at the OECD or the PISA tables. It seems that the new Ministers do not want to take into account the most reputable international measure of educational performance, which showed that we lifted ourselves up massively. The NHS is under enormous tension and in crisis, but compared with five years ago we have 20% more doctors and nurses, if it was purely a budgetary matter. I wish the new Government well in reforming the NHS, but if we want to see what a Labour Government means for the health service, we can find it right now. We just need to travel to Wales, and the hon. Gentleman knows that that is not delivering.

Let me return to Peter and his wife. They are not the only people who are worried about this policy. I spent a little time yesterday reading Labour’s manifesto, as I hope Labour Members may have done, and I was touched by the quote from Gary on page 48:

“I’ve never struggled this much to keep warm. I can only afford to heat one room with a small portable heater. Sometimes I sleep in my armchair to save money…it’s no way to live.”

Surely Labour Members, in good conscience, recognise that he is right: it is no way to live. When 9.7 million people voted Labour, they voted for it on the promise of change. I do not think this is the change that Gary and others were led to believe they would receive.

16:23

[Chris Murray (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)]

I am glad that the right hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Graham Stuart) referred to the change in the Labour manifesto at the last election, because the first line of that manifesto was the promise to bring economic stability to Britain, and that would be a change from the previous Government. We knew that bringing economic stability would involve tough choices, but even at the election we had no idea of the scale of the mess we would find. Means-testing the winter fuel allowance is not an easy decision, but we must look at it in the broader context.

Let me make three points about the situation that pensioners face. First, the pension triple lock is a critical piece of public policy, which makes the state pension genuinely liveable. The triple lock means that pensions increase by £900 in this year alone, and the state pension will increase by over £1,700 over the course of this Parliament. That helps all pensioners. It is absolutely the right decision for the Government to prioritise the pension triple lock, even if that means means-testing the winter fuel allowance.

Secondly, the poorest pensioners will still get the winter fuel allowance. I am reassured by the push to increase the take-up of pension credit.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Chris Murray]

Sorry, I will not give way, I must make progress. Thirdly, we must look more broadly at all the challenges that older people face. Waiting lists are appallingly long. Older people in my constituency can wait 18 months for a hip replacement; others spend their life savings on private healthcare. I understand that people are concerned, but we do people no favours by pretending that tough choices do not exist. Delaying that decision only leads to tougher, less enviable choices ahead.

[Sir Gavin Williamson (Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge) (Con)]

rose—

[Chris Murray]

Let me make progress. If the House wants to understand tough choices, look no further than my home of Scotland. Despite having higher public spending and higher taxes than the rest of the UK, our pensioners face the longest waiting lists on record. Today, the SNP will oppose means-testing the winter fuel allowance in Westminster, while bringing in its means-testing in Scotland. That is not to clean up the mess that the Tories left them, but to clean up their own mismanagement of Scottish finances. We can do better.

In taking this step, we must recognise that the country has changed since the winter fuel allowance was introduced. Today, when I look around my constituency, I see that age is no longer the main factor in whether someone can afford to heat their home. It cannot be right that we continue to give the wealthiest pensioners £300 a year. As society changes, we must adjust. We do today’s pensioners a better service by targeting those who need help the most.

16:26

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I rise to publicly oppose this proposed change. I understand the need to balance the books—we all do, and we know how it works—but to be perfectly frank, and it gives me no joy to say this, I never imagined ever in my life that a Labour Government would seek to balance the books on the backs of pensioners throughout the United Kingdom. I put that on record at the beginning. I say it respectfully, but with great grief.

I fully comprehend that the system could do with an upgrade. Perhaps we should look at a household cap, as we have with the child benefit payment. Perhaps we could look at allocating per household, rather than per person. Perhaps we could look at ensuring that everyone who is still earning more than their pension through employment can have deferred payments until full retirement. Perhaps we could look at an opt-out scheme for pensioners such as me. I do not need the money; I asked not to take the money. I give the money to charity. I am not better than anybody else—never am I better than anybody else—but I realised that I did not need that money, so I gave it away. Others might want to do the same thing.

It should be direct face-to-face applications for pension credit. There should not be a nine-week wait for the application to be processed. My goodness, people need the money now. The threshold should be raised. The Government and the Minister have said about the £440 that is coming next spring, but pensioners need the money this winter and as soon as possible.

In Northern Ireland, 68% of homes rely on oil-fired boilers for heating. There are high levels of fuel poverty, with 22% of the population currently spending more than 10% of their household income on heating their homes. I think about the women who have a tiny workplace pension from the hours they worked while their children were in school. The women of the Women Against State Pension Inequality Campaign have already been disadvantaged and will pay a further price for not being allowed to save for their needs. I am begging this Government on behalf of my constituents in Strangford not to remove the benefit from everyone in one fell swoop.

[Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

National Energy Action estimates that close to 45 people die every winter’s day in the UK due to cold homes. This Government, in their wisdom and through this decision, have decided to imperil many more. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is wrong, it will have an impact and it will cause deaths right across the United Kingdom?

[Jim Shannon]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We all recognise that this winter will be one where pensioners will feel the gravity of this and the pain of the cold. I stand for all those who are making do with less than £1,000 a month and those pensioners who will be impacted by the winter fuel allowance being taken away from them. For them, this is a lot of money. It is the difference between being warm this winter or simply surviving. It is not an exaggeration; it is life for my constituents and, respectfully, for the constituents of those on the Government Benches.

I will conclude. The clock for speeches has stopped. I will be respectful of the time, as you would expect, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Those who have worked all their lives deserve to be paid for what they paid in. There is a basic standard, along with women and children go first in the lifeboat: protect those who cannot survive the icy cold. So let us slow down the ship—I look to Labour to make that happen—and veer away from the iceberg, which some Members only see the tip of at the moment, which could be the destruction of the Government before their first journey even begins. Let us correct course and get this right. Let us support the Opposition motion, which reflects the mood and opinion on the Opposition Benches. I hope that the Labour party will realise that it is going the wrong way. We are trying to direct them the right way.

16:30

[Matthew Patrick (Wirral West) (Lab)]

I am grateful to follow the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). I have had a short time in this place, but I already know that he often sits in the Chamber and listens to everyone: to Members across the House. I listened to his points as well and will make these points to him. On this issue, like so many others, when it comes to our economic inheritance—which is a £22 billion in-year black hole—we have to make difficult decisions. We can choose to ignore the situation we are in and duck those decisions—the well-trodden path that was too often taken by the last Government—but the price of entry to that path is not free. There is a cost. It means accepting a failing economy and failing public services. It tries to shift the problem again and again to future generations. It is an easy path, but not a responsible one.

The alternative is that we govern as we campaigned—not just on economic stability but on credibility and truth in politics—and are honest with people about the mess that we are in and, crucially, about the path that we will take to bring about brighter days: to lower waiting times in our NHS, to get more teachers into our schools and more police on our streets, delivering again for people across the country.

Failure to deliver has become the norm; that must change. If we ignore the problems, we cannot fix them. Since records began, no Government front-loaded spending so much to leave the cupboard so bare for the second half of the year. That was an easy path, but not a responsible one. I believe that Opposition Members know that.

Indeed, there have been calls over the years from Conservative and Liberal Democrat Members to target winter fuel payments to those most in need. The Government are combining responsibility with compassion, and I know—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)]

Order. I call Wendy Morton.

16:32

[Wendy Morton (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con)]

Madam Deputy Speaker,

“The winter fuel payment gave me peace of mind that I would be able to heat my home and stay warm during the winter”—

not my words, but those of a constituent, and they are typical of the many comments I have received in my inbox and those I have heard when I have been out and about across my constituency.

In my constituency, there are just 2,138 recipients of pension credit, yet an estimated 18,300 pensioners will lose out this winter. This political choice, because that is what it is, means that those very same pensioners—those 18,300—will lose up to £300 of winter fuel payment; in addition, the energy price cap rise of 10% puts further financial pressure on them of about £149. It impacts pensioners earning as little as £13,000 a year. Contrast that with the inflation-busting pay rises that the Government have handed out. Contrast that with the billions that the Government are spending on GB Energy, a state-run company that will not produce any energy, nor will it cut their bills. What is more, when the vast majority of my pensioners, who are waiting for their annual increase of £460 next year—thanks to our work when we were in government—deduct £300 for losing the winter fuel payment, they will be left with an increase equivalent to just 44p a day: less than the cost of a pint of milk.

[Dr Caroline Johnson]

I wonder how many of my right hon. Friend’s constituents who will lose that vital payment earn less than the train drivers who have had all that extra money.

[Wendy Morton]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. It comes back to how this is about political choice, and I am here to stand up for my pensioners in my constituency.

I also point out that it was the Conservative party in government that drove up pension credit applications by 73% in just 12 months. It is important that we do not forget that. Pension credit take-up is often an entrenched issue. People in my constituency are often too proud to apply. The process is too complicated: 22 pages, 243 questions and, as we have heard, nine weeks to determine the outcome of the application.

Tackling pension credit take-up is important, but it is not the solution to the crisis that pensioners face today. Only weeks ahead of the winter, they need help now. According to Age UK, across the UK, around 2 million pensioners who badly need the money to stay warm this winter will now not receive it. Losing the winter fuel payment will make it significantly harder for them to keep warm, which undermines their health and wellbeing. As we have heard, pensioners often have serious health conditions and disabilities. Often, they live in older properties, and in the north or in my constituency in the west midlands it is often colder than in other parts of the country. Pensioners are all disproportionately affected, yet there is no sign of an impact assessment, just a Chancellor who, seemingly, storms ahead with her political decision.

[Patrick Spencer (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

[Wendy Morton]

I will continue because I am conscious that others want to get the chance to speak.

There is no time for older people on low incomes to set aside money—if they have it—to help them get through the winter. Being at home in the cold increases the risk of raised blood pressure, stroke, heart attacks and hypothermia. I did not vote for this callous cut earlier today. I will not pick the pockets of those who have worked hard all their lives, doing the right thing by their families and this country. I will continue to speak up for my constituents, who deserve better than this. This is so wrong.

16:36

[Laurence Turner (Birmingham Northfield) (Lab)]

I associate myself with the comments of Labour colleagues in this debate, but I want to speak about the particular issue of public sector pay and the attempts made in this debate and the preceding one to turn pensioners and public sector workers against each other, including the public sector workers who have been driven to rely on food banks and payday loans, who I was proud to represent as a trade union official. The 6,000 public sector workers in my constituency must wonder what the Opposition have against them in this debate.

A strong economy needs strong public services, but the problem for the last Government—and the public sector workers who worked for them—was that their public finance strategy rested on

“imposing the biggest real wage cuts in living memory.”

Those are not my words but those of the former permanent secretary to the Treasury, Nicholas Macpherson. The consequences for the services that we all depend on are clear: teaching vacancies have doubled over the past three years, there is an 8% vacancy rate in the NHS and one in 10 999 call handler posts is vacant. We all know the consequences of ambulance delays for pensioners and of cancelled operations and appointments. [Interruption.] Does the right hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Holden) wish to make an intervention?

[Mr Richard Holden (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

Thank you, that is kind. In Basildon and Billericay, 15,000 pensioners will lose out because of this callous cut by the Labour Government. The hon. Member pointed out the impact on public services, but how many more hospital admissions will we have, and how many more people will need operations because of his party’s cut? Will we be unable to find out, because his party will not even put forward an impact assessment so that we can know who is affected?

[Laurence Turner]

We will take no lectures on hospital admissions, given the state of the NHS that the right hon. Member’s party left us.

The Conservatives claimed that they did not know what the pay review body recommendations would be, but the School Teachers’ Review Body recommendations were known to Ministers before July. They will know also that the different PRBs tend to make similar recommendations. Why were most of those recommendations not submitted in good time? Because Ministers were late in submitting their evidence, pushing the timetable until after the election. The Office of Manpower Economics has said:

“The work of the PRBs is demand led and essentially non-negotiable—departments set the remits and timetables.”

Shadow Ministers talked about productivity gains, but when it came to NHS negotiations under the last Government, productivity was just a slogan. The cupboard was bare. They had nothing to actually ask for.

[Dr Caroline Johnson]

The hon. Gentleman is making a case comparing the salaries of working individuals with the pensions of the elderly. Could he tell me how many of the people who will lose the winter fuel allowance in his constituency earn or receive less than the minimum wage?

[Laurence Turner]

In my constituency, there are approximately 2,600 pensioner households that do not receive pension credit—that is one of the legacies of the previous Government—but are entitled to it.

The Conservatives suggest that they would have rejected the pay review body recommendations, forgetting that one of the first acts of the Margaret Thatcher Government in 1979 was to accept the recommendations of the Clegg commission on pay comparability. If only the Conservative party had more courage today.

The winter fuel allowance exists because of a Labour Government: a Government who increased the value of those payments fivefold in 13 years, compared with an increase of zero under 14 years of the previous Government—a real-terms cut of 33%.

[Mark Ferguson (Gateshead Central and Whickham) (Lab)]

It is fascinating to hear the recent converts to the fight against poverty on the Opposition Benches, particularly the right hon. Member for North West Durham—sorry, Basildon and Billericay (Mr Holden)—yet they seem far quieter about the fact that the average food shop went up by £1,000 in the last Parliament, the average energy bill went up £400—[Interruption.] Listen and you might learn something. The average mortgage went up £2,880 because of your lot. [Interruption.] Apologies, Madam Deputy Speaker.

[Dr Luke Evans (Hinckley and Bosworth) (Con)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I seek your guidance. I was under the impression that in the Chamber we should refer to Members, Friends or even the constituency. Is that correct?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)]

The hon. Member is absolutely correct. May I just helpfully point out to all hon. and right hon. Members that, in seeking to make repeated interventions, they are actually cutting into each other’s time? I have made the point previously about the correct way to address each other, through me as Deputy Speaker. Interventions need to be a great deal shorter because they are just cutting into the time for the debate and there are an awful lot of Members who wish to contribute.

[Nick Timothy (West Suffolk) (Con)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like advice from the Chair, please. Reportedly, more than 200 Labour MPs received more than £2 million in donations before the election from the trade unions. Before other Members give speeches about issues such as public sector pay, would it not be in order for them to declare that interest at the beginning of their speeches?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

As the hon. Member will know, it is for individual Members to declare their interests, if one is applicable.

[Laurence Turner]

I declared my background in the trade union movement, and I note that the hon. Member for West Suffolk (Nick Timothy) wrote the manifesto, which he stood on, that proposed cutting the winter fuel allowance.

Now that the winter fuel allowance is to be means-tested, we must boost the uptake of pension credit. I welcome the measures Ministers have announced today, so that the allowance can be protected for the very poorest pensioners.

16:43

[Mike Wood (Kingswinford and South Staffordshire) (Con)]

The Government’s choice to remove the winter fuel payment from 21,365 of my constituents is cruel. The payments have been a lifeline for so many pensioners, helping them to stay warm during the harsh winter months. Most pensioners live on fixed incomes, so having almost no notice—no time to prepare—means that the impact of this loss of income on many pensioner households will be that it is increasingly difficult for them to afford basic necessities.

A number of Labour Members have talked about difficult choices, but the reality is that the Government have run away from difficult choices. They have ducked the difficult choices. The difficult choice would have been to be upfront with voters during the election campaign, to explain why they felt this was necessary, appropriate and, as some have said, morally right, and to trust voters to decide whether to give them that mandate. Instead, they ran away. There are difficult choices, but unfortunately the difficult choices are the ones that they have left our constituents to face.

[Mr Peter Bedford (Mid Leicestershire) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that this choice sets a dangerous precedent? Free bus passes, prescription charges and, indeed, access to healthcare itself are all now at risk because of the logic being put forward by the Labour party in respect of pensioners’ ability to afford them.

[Mike Wood]

My hon. Friend is clearly correct. Many people, but particularly pensioners, will be worried about what this Chancellor will take away from them next. Without these payments, many will be forced to choose between heating their homes and other essential expenses such as food or medication—people such as my constituent Linda, who wrote to me:

“My husband has several medical issues this year and I am very worried about the heating situation…I think it is likely that we will cut back on nourishing food.

I cannot believe that a British Government would penalize our generation like this.”

Another constituent, Dawn, wrote:

“Now I fear the winter months, and afraid…of hypothermia.

I personally am just above the threshold to qualify for pension credits. I am a single person claiming state pension and also have a small NHS pension…I can foresee me not using my central heating this winter.”

Those are difficult choices that this Chancellor and this Government have forced on too many of our pensioners, and they are choices that no one should have to make, and particularly not those who have contributed so much to our society.

[Joe Morris (Hexham) (Lab)]

The Government the hon. Gentleman supported were responsible for driving living standards down, in the first Parliament on record in which that happened. Does he not agree that it is traditionally bad form for the arsonist to start criticising the fire brigade?

[Mike Wood]

I think that the hon. Gentleman has a huge amount of cheek. He should consider first the inheritance of that previous Conservative Government: the present candidate for the chairmanship of the Business and Trade Committee had written that there was no money left. He should also bear in mind that what we saw during those 14 years was not only restoration in the economy but a huge growth in pensioner income, and what we see now is the fastest growth in the G7, unemployment at record low levels, and inflation also back at low levels.

The Chancellor wants us to believe that this decision suddenly came to her at some point in the run-up to the King’s Speech, some time after the general election, and that it would not have been possible for her to imagine it before polling day. She claimed in July that it was not a decision that she wanted to make. However, as has already been pointed out, in March 2014 she stood at the Opposition Dispatch Box, barely feet away from where I am now, demanding that winter fuel payments be means-tested. In July she said that it was not a decision that she expected to make, yet, miraculously, this year’s Labour manifesto was the first in almost two decades without that specific commitment to protect winter fuel payments.

This is a decision that had been a decade in the making—a decade in the planning. Labour had a decade in which to prepare and get it right, but we are seeing how poorly thought through it was. We cannot have a Social Security Advisory Committee report, and we cannot have an impact assessment. Labour imagined that it could take the money away from pensioners with no impact on our NHS or on charities. This decision is wrong, and it needs to be reversed.

16:48

[John Slinger (Rugby) (Lab)]

Many Opposition Members have thrown the word “choice” at us. Their party chose empty promises, chose unfunded policies, chose a course that led to the decimation of our public services and to higher mortgage rates and higher bills, and chose to make the former Member of Parliament for South West Norfolk Prime Minister.

We did not want to make this choice, but some choices are thrust upon us. We on the Labour Benches do not duck choices. This Government are choosing long-term economic stability, economic security and growth. This Government are choosing to maintain the triple lock, which will see the state pension rise year on year. This Government are choosing to do all in their power to make sure that hundreds of thousands of pensioners claim pension credit, and they will do a lot more.

[Dr Mullan]

Does the hon. Member agree that it is deeply disingenuous for him and other Labour Members to talk about the drive to increase the uptake of pension credit? He knows full well that if the Government were able to do that, it would wipe out the saving that they are claiming to make. They do not actually want people to increase their uptake of pension credit, because the Government would not save any money.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)]

Order. I remind the hon. Member that the word “disingenuous” is almost akin to suggesting that someone is lying. Perhaps he would like to withdraw his remark.

[Dr Mullan]

I will replace “disingenuous” with “deeply, deeply concerning”.

[John Slinger]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, and for clarifying his use of language. I can assure him that everyone on the Labour Benches, including my colleagues on the Front Bench, are doing everything they can to make sure that vulnerable pensioners who need pension credit receive it. We say that in good faith, and we mean it.

[Gregory Stafford (Farnham and Bordon) (Con)]

What does the hon. Member say to the 18,883 pensioners in my constituency who will lose the winter fuel payment? They include Rita, who looks after her husband who has multiple sclerosis. She wrote to me today to say that she has to make the choice this winter between heating their home and paying for essential medication.

[John Slinger]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I say to him and his constituents that the Government are making every effort to ensure that vulnerable pensioners and pensioners who need pension credit receive it. We are sticking by the triple lock to make sure that pensioners are better off year on year, and I am glad and proud that we are doing so.

[Sir Gavin Williamson]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[John Slinger]

I will make some progress, if I may. I have already taken two interventions.

This Government are choosing to move on from the terrible choices of the previous Government. We are choosing a stable, strong economy that will benefit all of the people of this country—all demographics in all regions, the next generation and definitely pensioners.

16:52

[Ellie Chowns (North Herefordshire) (Green)]

Fuel poverty is an enormous issue in my constituency due to a combination of demographics, geography, the housing stock and, indeed, living standards. I rise to speak on behalf of the many hundreds of my constituents who have written to me to express their deep concern about the Government’s policy. I do not have time to read out extracts from their very moving emails, but I know that Judy, Kenneth, Pat, Tom, Robert and Gwen are all deeply concerned about the impact that it will have. They have reported their health issues, their partners’ disabilities, and the fact that they are just over the limit and will not be able to access the winter fuel payment. That will force them into the classic, depressing choice between heating and eating that this country must avoid.

I have voted against the Government’s policy today for three reasons. First, it is socially regressive and will increase poverty among about 2 million people, nearly 1 million of whom ought to be getting pension credit. The Labour party’s efforts are nowhere near fast enough to avoid increased poverty this winter.

Secondly, the policy is economically innumerate. It will not save the money that the Government argue it will save. There are far better ways to save that money, and to fund the action that is certainly needed to support our public services.

Thirdly, the policy is, frankly, politically inept. I really cannot believe that this Government have spent political capital on making such an unfortunate and unjustifiable political decision.

The winter fuel payment is not, and never was, a perfect policy. I have some sympathy with Members who have spoken today about the inequity of the inclusion error, whereby those who have significant wealth were still receiving the payment, but that has been replaced by a policy with an enormous and dangerous error of exclusion for those 2 million people who will no longer get the support that they need.

[Ben Maguire (North Cornwall) (LD)]

Of course millionaires do not need the winter fuel payment, but does the hon. Member agree that there must be support for pensioners who really need it, rather than this cruel cliff edge, especially for those living in rural areas such as my constituency who are not connected to the mains gas grid?

[Ellie Chowns]

I thank the hon. Member for his point. Like him, I live in a rural constituency with many people who are not connected to mains sources of power. This cliff edge is a key problem, and it has been referred to today by Members from across the House.

There must be a better way, and that requires a better sort of politics. I have been in this Chamber today for the entirety of this debate and the one before on the statutory instrument and I have been very disappointed by the tone of some of the comments, the discussion, the debate and the argumentation that I have heard. It is the sort of politics that puts people off what we do here in this Chamber. This is a classic example of how we need to find ways to speak better about such fundamental issues. There must be an option to find some common ground.

In the spirit of constructive criticism and constructive engagement, I urge the Government to stop, to review, to think again and to work out a way of meeting their need to find funding for public services in such a way that it does not place the burden on those not with the broadest shoulders but effectively with the narrowest. We need to find a way of talking not just about how we deal with fuel subsidies but about making sure that every house is warm and well insulated, so that the money is not just going up the chimney, out of the windows and into the pockets of the energy companies. We must invest for the long term so that every home is warm and every pensioner can keep warm.

16:56

[Dr Neil Hudson (Epping Forest) (Con)]

Two months ago, the Labour party was elected promising change and a Government of public service. Although their announcement to cut winter fuel payments is change, I doubt it is one that millions of pensioners up and down the land thought that they would make. In terms of a Government of service, I struggle to think of a greater disservice to millions of pensioners than taking away the winter fuel payment on which they rely. Pensioners who have worked hard all their lives deserve dignity and respect in their retirement, instead of this harsh and ill-judged policy from Labour.

Many of those pensioners will be forced to make a tough decision this winter about whether to have the heating on, as energy prices rise and temperatures drop. The Government have admitted to me in a response to a parliamentary question that, shockingly, they believe that 15,744 of my constituents in Epping Forest will have their winter fuel allowance withdrawn by the Labour Government this winter, among the more than 8.6 million pensioners right across England who will have this lifeline withdrawn. This could have so many implications for the health of older people, who spend more time inside their homes when facing conditions, some of which need social care.

There is a real concern that being cold at home may have a detrimental effect on people’s health, as we have heard from some of our medical colleagues today, resulting in respiratory disease, rising blood pressure, an increased risk of strokes and heart attacks and even hypothermia. It is recommended by the UK Health Security Agency that the temperature should be 21°C in living areas and 18°C in bedrooms, which pensioners are going to struggle with this winter.

[Sir Gavin Williamson]

In Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge, over 19,600 pensioners are going to lose their winter fuel payments. Of course, so many of them are incredibly proud and do not want to apply for additional benefits, and so many will be just outside of being eligible. The decisions of this Government are condemning them to a cold and incredibly hard winter.

[Dr Hudson]

My right hon. Friend is exactly right that many people are too proud to claim these benefits, and that many people are just above the cut-off point. These people have been portrayed by some Labour Members as rich and able to deal with it, but that is not the case.

I am proud that our Conservative Government not only provided winter fuel payments, but extensively supported older people and the country through difficult times during the pandemic and the effects of the war in the Ukraine and, very importantly, that they honoured the Conservative triple lock, meaning that pensioners got the pension increases they deserve.

I am also proud that my party is continuing to defend older people, including through the compassionate Conservative motion that triggered this debate and vote, and that I was proud to sign. The economic decisions we make speak volumes about our values as a society and a country. How the Labour Government respond to this debate on winter fuel payments, and how they respond in the upcoming Budget, is their chance to show where their values truly lie. This Government need to confirm that, now and in the upcoming Budget, their need to save money will not come at the expense of older people and the financial support they need.

This Government really need to think again about their move to cut winter fuel payments, for the sake of the millions of older people who need them and for the implications it will have. If Labour chooses to continue with this heartless policy, my constituents and the constituents of Conservative colleagues can be assured that my party and I will continue to stand up for our pensioners and will maintain our call that the winter fuel payment cut be reversed.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)]

I will reduce the time limit still further, to two minutes, after the next speaker.

17:01

[Yuan Yang (Earley and Woodley) (Lab)]

My volunteers and I have been out speaking to residents across my constituency every weekend since the general election. Like many others, Earley and Woodley is a very diverse constituency with diverse needs. Last weekend we spoke to relatively well-off pensioners who told us that they feel it is right that winter fuel payments be means-tested and that, with their sense of dignity and generosity, they do not need state aid in this respect.

Pensioners in other parts of my constituency are less well off, and I was shocked to find that one in three pensioners in my constituency who are eligible for pension credit, which is roughly 1,000 pensioners—as well as one in three across the UK who are eligible for pension credit, or 880,000—do not claim it.

Over the weekend I held one of my first constituency surgeries at the Whitley community development association café. A staff member told me that they talk to the pensioners who come in about the struggles they face with the cost of living crisis that has unravelled over the last few years. They talk to them about support, but these elderly people respond, “No, I don’t need benefits. I don’t need help.” I recognise that as part of the broader societal stigma around being a recipient of benefits and state aid, which this Government must challenge and defeat.

A compassionate, generous and dignified society recognises when people require help, when people do not require help and when people can help others, and accepts that people sometimes fall on hard times due to an accident, bereavement, illness or other reasons outside their control. For those who need help, it is not undignified to seek it. In fact, it is very important that every pensioner listening to my speech, whether they are in my Earley and Woodley constituency or elsewhere in the UK, knows how to seek help and can seek it if they need it. I am determined that we bring about a dignified and fair means-tested benefit and tax system. Fairness and dignity will keep that system functioning.

Members on both sides of the House have talked about civility. We too often hear about individuals and societal groups being pitted against each other. Pensioners in Earley and Woodley are part of the broader community, and they have children and grandchildren who work in hospitals, who require care, who are supported by teachers, who take buses and trains and, yes, who avail themselves of all the means of support provided to maintain our flourishing and cohesive society. It is unacceptable—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)]

Order. I call Rebecca Harris.

17:04

[Rebecca Harris (Castle Point) (Con)]

About 20,000 pensioners in Castle Point are set to lose their winter fuel payment under this cruel and vindictive policy that the Labour Government have chosen to adopt. Contrary to the accusations from the Government, I have, with the support of former Work and Pensions Ministers, run campaign after campaign to increase the uptake of pension credit. Only 2,076 pensioners receive it in my constituency, despite campaign after campaign and leafletting groups and churches. It is not easy to get people to take it up—some are proud. I have raised my voice with elderly ladies who have said it is charity, and told them, “No, it’s not. It’s not charity—we don’t think you can live without it.” We have tried very hard.

Hundreds of worried constituents have written to me about heating their homes. We have lots of low energy efficiency homes, including one of the biggest park home sites in the country, and I have many park home sites. Fortunately, we managed to find £2.5 million from the previous Government to retrofit some of them, but we still have a lot of people living in fuel-inefficient homes that are hard to retrofit. The worry that this is causing people is the biggest issue I see now, and it shows how out of touch and arrogant the Labour Government are that they do not understand this about pensioners. People who are 75 and on a fixed income may have a little bit of savings or a modest private pension—

[Patrick Spencer]

I think all hon. Members are very disappointed not to see a proper impact analysis of this decision. Does my hon. Friend agree that the best way to analyse the impact of such a policy is to speak to the people who sent us to this place, as she is saying, and to hear the utter fear and concern they have about its impact?

[Rebecca Harris]

My hon. Friend is spot on. It is the anxiety that it causes people. They do not know if they will live another 18 months or 25 years. People on fixed incomes, with no ability to raise that income, are very worried about spending money. There is also a large and, sadly, growing cohort of elderly residents who are developing dementia, and one of the early symptoms, often, is financial anxiety, including in people whom we would think of as really quite wealthy. I have known residents who have regressed to thinking that they are still living under rationing because they grew up as a lad in abject poverty, and they will not spend money. Being told, “Here’s £300 for fuel,” makes a world of difference to those people.

I was not a fan of Gordon Brown, who once gave a derisory 75p increase to pensioners, but this policy was a huge success—credit to him. That is why my Government never changed it. For £300 for every pensioner, we give incredible peace of mind that they can put their heating on—

[Dr Caroline Johnson]

Does my hon. Friend worry, as I do, that some of our constituents will die this year as a result of this policy?

[Rebecca Harris]

I do not think that I need to worry; I think we know that will happen, because we know about their behaviour and their concerns about putting the heating on, and their lack of understanding of how much every heating bill will cost them. This £300 was psychologically very important to knowing that they could put their heating on to keep them healthy and out of hospital. Of all the tough decisions that we had to consider when we came into office in 2010, when there was no magicked-up, home-made £22 billion black hole excuse—there was a vast deficit and we had to make a lot of tough decisions—we never made this one.

17:08

[Stuart Anderson (South Shropshire) (Con)]

I am sure Labour Members never thought in the general election campaign that they would be giving pensioners the choice between heating and eating. Many Labour Members have not even bothered to turn up for a debate on something so critical for many pensioners across this country. We have talked about choices, and this is all about choices. The Government have made a political choice. Labour Members will all have to make a choice, and face their constituents whether they vote for or against. I urge them not to cut the winter fuel allowance.

Let me go on a journey and set out the narrative. The Government say there is a debt and imagine there is a black hole they have to fill, so let us have a look at the numbers. They say they have to find £22 billion, so let us cut £1.1 billion but in the same breath add £9 billion for the pensions. At the same time, the red herring that is the Great British Energy flop adds another £8.4 billion. That is a decision that the Government have made, but why would the Labour party let numbers get in the way of a good story? The numbers show the Government have no issue making decisions against pensioners.

I am a proud veteran. In November, on Remembrance Day, we ask people to remember those who paid the ultimate sacrifice in the service of their country. I challenge Labour Members to look at pensioners who have served and say, “We will never forget,” because those pensioners have already been forgotten.

[Bradley Thomas (Bromsgrove) (Con)]

In the spirit of what my hon. Friend describes, I will cite the example of Betty Webb, a constituent of mine who received an MBE for her work as a codebreaker at Bletchley Park. She is 101 years old. She is a widow who lives alone. She is living in fear not just that the Government will take away the winter fuel allowance, but that in future they will snatch away the 25% single person’s discount on council tax. Many other constituents of mine are fearful of the same thing.

[Stuart Anderson]

My hon. Friend makes a great point. Pensioners, including those who have given a life of service to this country, are living in fear of what is coming next. Almost a third of residents in South Shropshire are pensioners, and they have been writing to me and they are absolutely livid. They feel like they have been led down the garden path—taking away this payment was not what was promised. It is cruel, heartless and callous. This policy needs to change.

The Chancellor has made a rookie error. She has gone into the Treasury and, with everything in front of her, said, “Do this,” and she has removed the personal view. She has made a political decision—[Interruption.] Of course it is a rookie error. This is a massive error. She has listened and removed people from the equation. When people are removed from politics, it is a road to nowhere. Will the Chancellor go and see the Downing Street chief of staff and ask for permission to reverse this proposal?

17:11

[Rebecca Smith (South West Devon) (Con)]

Nearly 22,000 of my constituents will lose their winter fuel payments. Currently, only 1,500 will receive it. That is a massive cliff edge for those 22,000 residents. While many of them may feel that they do not require that payment, as has been mentioned by other hon. Members, the vast majority of those pensioners fall into low and middle-income brackets because things do not have such high financial value in the south-west.

As the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Ben Maguire) alluded to, many properties are off-grid. Members may not have realised that 24% of homes across the south-west do not have gas, which is a much cheaper source of energy. They resort to using oil and logs to heat their homes, with the enormous costs that go with them. That is an additional challenge.

Concerns have been raised about those who are single, those in receipt of the older basic state pension, which is not as high as the new state pension, and those with health conditions. The first resident to contact me was a 74-year-old single man, on an older-style pension, who was just outside the bracket for pension credit or any other form of benefit, who was deeply concerned about this winter.

[Joe Robertson (Isle of Wight East) (Con)]

My hon. Friend makes a good point about those with health conditions. Does she agree that there is no provision in the proposal for those living with dementia or long-term frailty? Those are not means-tested diseases or conditions, yet the Government have not made any provision or assessment of how those living with dementia will miss out.

[Rebecca Smith]

I agree. My hon. Friend makes an incredibly important point about those vulnerable older people who live with dementia; many of our constituents will be in that situation.

Why are we not looking at alternative ways to deal with this cliff edge? A couple of years ago, the Conservative party proposed the council tax rebate scheme, which used the council tax system as a mechanism to ensure the most vulnerable received support. Single-person households, those where someone had dementia, or households in receipt of council tax credit because they did not have a particularly high income received a discount through the council tax rebate scheme. That system could be replicated with the winter fuel payment, which would offer an alternative way of avoiding that cliff edge for so many residents.

Finally, I know that health has already been mentioned, but I wish to use this as an opportunity to highlight the fact that so many more elderly people will need hospital care this winter, but that is massively impacted and at risk because the Government will not confirm which of the new hospital programmes are going forward. In particular, the emergency and urgent care centre in Plymouth will be vital to providing the healthcare that our older people will need if they are unable to heat their homes or to look after themselves, and to ensuring that they have all the support they need.

17:15

[Ann Davies (Caerfyrddin) (PC)]

It was only two months ago that Labour won a majority in the general election on a message of change. But in those two months the new Labour UK Government have refused to abolish the cruel two-child benefit cap and now seek to take away winter fuel payments of up to £300 from millions of pensioners across the UK, by limiting it to recipients of pension credit. Well, nothing has changed.

Some 68% of households in Carmarthenshire lived in homes with poor energy efficiency in 2022, and 60.4% of households in my Caerfyrddin seat live off the gas grid, often relying on oil as a heat source. But the price of oil is very volatile, and in winter we can see it going up by 20p or 30p a litre, causing uncertainty for people budgeting over the winter.

Not heating a home can have serious consequences. A cold home brings with it a higher risk of stroke, respiratory infection and falls or other injuries. The End Fuel Poverty Coalition estimated that nearly 5,000 excess winter deaths were caused by living in cold homes during the winter of 2022-23. And many older, vulnerable people have higher energy costs due to health reasons.

It is a shame that the Minister of State for Crime, Policing and Fire misspoke earlier this week, as the consideration of other options, such as a social tariff or different ways of means testing, would be welcomed. As constructive criticism, can the Government bring the winter fuel payment within the definition of a taxable income to ensure that pensioners get what they need?

In closing, I call on colleagues to consider whether they can justify—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)]

Order. I call Alicia Kearns.

17:17

[Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Stamford) (Con)]

I rise to speak on behalf of the 20,800 pensioners in Rutland, Stamford and the Harborough and South Kesteven villages who will lose their winter fuel payment this winter. This decision affects millions of people who bought into our country’s social contract: you work hard, you pay your taxes and when you grow old, we will support you through your retirement.

I make two requests of the Labour Government, although I know that they will both be rejected. First, I ask them to delay implementation to give people more time to prepare. Older people are some of the most financially cautious in our society. They save, they go without, they avoid debt, and they give what they can to their children, their grandchildren and their friends in need. A delay of a year would give people the time to claim pension credit, if eligible, to face the upcoming increase in energy bills and to plan for the next winter.

Secondly, I ask the Government to give an exemption to anyone suffering from a chronic or life-shortening illness. Since this cut was announced, I have heard from so many people, including Di, who emailed me out of concern not for herself, but for her husband Jeff, who suffers from cancer and has to wear three layers of clothes all year round, even in the summer. As Di put it, the decision—and it is a decision by the Prime Minister—is penalising the ill. Her “hubby will suffer” and she is shattered.

We will hear a lot from the Government about hard choices, but if I were asked to choose between heating the homes of the elderly, cancer sufferers and dementia sufferers or giving a no-strings-attached pay rise to train drivers already on nearly £70,000, the choice would be pretty damn obvious to me. But then, ASLEF did not donate to my election campaign.

People say that we can tell a lot about a society by how it treats its most vulnerable and its eldest. If we apply that test to this cut, anyone with a heart will know that it is wrong. I, for one, will never vote to deprive the most vulnerable and our elderly of warmth.

17:19

[Lincoln Jopp (Spelthorne) (Con)]

When I was 14 years old, I started delivering Meals on Wheels on Christmas day for the disadvantaged around west London, and I have done so every year since that I have lived in London. The scheme is organised by Age UK and it is a privilege to be invited into people’s homes in midwinter. I look forward to doing it again this Christmas, and I hope that those I visited last year will be there this year.

The Government are seeking to raise money, and I get that. They are seeking to do so by getting those with the broader shoulders to take the heaviest load, and I get that too. In order to achieve those goals, the Government are means-testing the winter fuel payment—and there is the rub. By choosing that means test, the Government are indeed taking the winter fuel payment from millionaire pensioners, but they are also taking it from the much less well off and from the not well off at all. In short, they are cutting too deep.

Mistakes happen, but it is how we deal with mistakes that is important. I spent the weekend listening to the Prime Minister using the word “tough” as many times as he possibly could. On the battlefields of the world, which I have been on for the last 25 years, toughness was not one of the things that people looked for in their leaders. The two things they looked for were courage and competence. Courage—moral courage—sometimes means that people need to admit when they have made a mistake and change their plan. However, the people of Spelthorne—and, I suspect, the pensioners across the country—would just settle for a bit of competence. This Government need to get good at governing, and they need to do so quickly.

17:21

[John Cooper (Dumfries and Galloway) (Con)]

We have heard descriptions today of pensioners as millionaires. We have heard that this is a principled decision to cut money from them. I am astonished at that description. Like my hon. Friend the Member for South West Devon (Rebecca Smith), I am from the south-west—the south-west of Scotland—and I can count on one hand, I would suggest, the number of millionaire pensioners there. Even if their homes were worth millions, having risen in price through no fault of theirs, they are asset-rich, and that is very different from being cash and liquidity rich. If they are hit with a bill, they cannot sell their home. That leaves people in an absolute bind.

We have heard very little today from the SNP, because in Scotland the SNP Government have the ability to ameliorate this decision, should it go ahead. It will cost, they estimate, £160 million. I accept that is not buttons; it is not peanuts. However, the last Conservative Government sent £41 billion to Scotland and I think we should be able to find that money in Scotland to help the worst-off in our society. This is a wrong-headed decision, and I am astonished to hear it being described as a principled decision.

17:22

[Jess Brown-Fuller (Chichester) (LD)]

Since the announcement of the Government’s plans, I and colleagues across this House have been inundated with heartfelt stories of elderly people across the country who will be unfairly harmed by the removal of the winter fuel allowance. It is concerning that the impact was not properly assessed before the Government took this step.

In Chichester, we have 24,000 pensioners who are not receiving pension credits, many of whom sit just above the threshold—constituents such as Sherry, who is 80 and registered disabled. She has to maintain an even living temperature to deal with conditions while living in a 100-year-old cottage with poor insulation. Roy and his wife are in their late 80s and have burned through their meagre savings covering their rising energy bills during this cost of living crisis. Vicky writes to me about having to choose between eating and heating in the current winter months because she will not be able to afford to do both.

Our elderly, who have worked hard throughout their lives, are now being abandoned by a Government that should be supporting them when they need help the most. The Liberal Democrats understand the disastrous state our public finances have been left in, due to the fiscal mismanagement of the previous Conservative Government, and we recognise that tough decisions need to be made. However, those decisions should not be made at the expense of our elderly.

The burden of this Conservative fiscal chaos needs to be spread to those with the broadest shoulders, rather than punishing those who have already been hit hardest by it. Cutting the winter fuel allowance in the midst of a cost of living crisis will leave thousands of elderly individuals across Chichester and millions across the UK without the financial support they need to stay warm and healthy this winter. With the price cap due to rise in October, it could be argued that the winter fuel allowance is needed this winter more than ever.

17:24

[Paul Holmes (Hamble Valley) (Con)]

The change that the Government announced this morning will mean than 18,300 of my constituents will go without their winter fuel payment this Christmas. In the brief time that I have, I will set out why I believe that is just the start from the Government.

The first reason is that cutting winter fuel payments for poorer pensioners is a political choice, not a necessity, despite what the Leader of the House says. Over the election period, Labour said that it would not cut the winter fuel payment. It has broken its promise to the British people, and they will remember that. Labour also said that it would possibly do more, although it has denied that it would not do more. Today’s measures will save £1 billion, as I outlined in my earlier intervention, but Labour has awarded inflation-busting pay rises of £9 billion to its union paymasters.

[Peter Swallow]

Can the hon. Member explain to the House and to his constituents why he would not back fair pay rises for teachers, nurses, prison officers and members of the armed forces in his constituency?

[Paul Holmes]

I will not take any lectures from the hon. Member, but I say to him that I always defend pay rises for people in this country who deserve them, which is exactly what the Conservative Government did. What our Government did not do was award inflation-busting pay rises of 22% to the people who paid for our general election campaign, increasing inflation in this country. I believe that people deserve pay rises, but that should be done within a responsible fiscal envelope. The Labour Government simply have not done that.

As we heard from the Chancellor earlier, the measures that she has announced will cost more than the savings generated from scrapping the winter fuel payments—that is a shambles. The Government have done this at a time when energy bills will increase by 10%, despite the Labour party’s promise in Opposition that it would freeze energy bills—another broken promise that pensioners will have to face this Christmas. The Government have also refused to rule out scrapping the 25% single occupancy discount for pensioners and single people. If that goes ahead, they will deprive pensioners of another £600 on average. That is a political choice and a cost of living bombshell that this Labour Government—supposedly the party of hard-working people—will impose on vulnerable and poorer pensioners across the country.

Labour Members have a choice this afternoon and going forward. They should reverse the cut, stand up for the thousands of people in their constituencies who will be made poorer by the Government, and reject the measures that they outlined earlier. Let me put it this way: 18,000 people in my constituency rely on the winter fuel payment, as do thousands of Labour Members’ constituents. When we go to the ballot box in four years’ time, I look forward to Labour Members standing up and explaining to those pensioners why they made them poorer.

17:27

[Lewis Cocking (Broxbourne) (Con)]

In my first speech in this Chamber, I assured the House than my nan would keep me on my toes. Even before the cut to the winter fuel payment had hit the news headlines, she was on the phone to me to sort it out. My nan is one of 15,000 pensioners in Broxbourne who will end up losing £300 a year—a vital sum of money that would help them to keep their homes warm this winter. The Government’s priorities are clearly dictated by their union paymasters, so I am tempted to advise my nan to start her own pensioners’ union. If there were one, I am sure that pensioners would have seen their winter fuel payments go up rather than be abolished.

When we put the Chancellor’s decision into context, it is even more staggering. Labour’s deals with the unions, which have cost the taxpayer £14 billion, will see the average salary of train drivers, who are already well paid, rise from £60,000 to £70,000 a year. Help for heating bills is being taken away from the elderly, but the energy price cap is going up by 10% in a few weeks’ time—a double blow for pensioners. Was making it more expensive for pensioners to heat their homes in Labour’s manifesto? It was not. In fact, we were told that Labour would slash fuel poverty and save families hundreds of pounds. That is yet another broken promise, and Labour has been in power for only 10 weeks.

My nan is not the only one to have got in touch with me about this; I have been inundated with letters and emails from hundreds of constituents. Winter is coming, and I strongly urge the Government to change course.

17:29

[Aphra Brandreth (Chester South and Eddisbury) (Con)]

My constituency has a higher proportion of people in receipt of winter fuel payments than most other constituencies. Over 21,000 of them are set to lose that vital support. Constituents have told me that they face a choice between eating and heating. Others have told me that they are concerned for their health during the cold winter months. Their stories are a powerful reminder of the human cost of this decision.

Maggie is 86 and lives in Handbridge in my constituency. She worked as a midwife in the NHS for 40 years, so has a state pension and a small NHS pension. She is not eligible for additional benefits because she was careful with what she earned and saved wisely. Maggie is just above the threshold to be eligible for continued support. She is also a dual cancer survivor, having beaten breast cancer in 2013 and bowel cancer in 2016. Maggie is understandably worried about the consequences of being unable to heat her home this winter. There is also the story of Jackie and John, who live in Audlem. Like many people living in a rural village, they live off grid and do not have access to mains gas. They must rely on heating oil to heat their home.

Pensioners who have paid into the system all their working lives ought to be able to enjoy their retirement with dignity, security and respect. We all know in this House that to govern is to choose. Labour has chosen. It has chosen its union paymasters over our vulnerable pensioner communities. It has let down Maggie, John and Jackie, and many others like them. I urge the Government to listen with compassion and reconsider this political decision.

17:32

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

For over five years, I have been raising the issue of impact assessments and the fact that they do not make sense. I see the Opposition Front Benchers nodding along, because they know that I have been raising that issue.

Impact assessments are done on a stupid basis that does not make any sense, and certainly not in today’s world. If the Opposition Front Benchers had only changed it when they had the opportunity, we would not be in this situation today. But the Labour party has the opportunity to change the way we do impact assessments so that they actually make sense. They should be about not just whether businesses will be impacted to the tune of £5 million, but what matters to people and whether their lives will be impacted by a change in policy. That is the point at which impact assessments should be done.

We do not have an impact assessment for this policy. Do the Labour party and the UK Government know that single women are three times more likely to be missing out on pension credit than single men? Does the Labour party know that pensioners who are black or from Asian ethnic backgrounds are more likely to be in poverty than white pensioners? Does it therefore know that this decision has a differential impact on minority communities? Is that why it has refused to share the impact assessments with us? How will this policy grow the economy? How will ensuring that pensioners, who we know spend in their local communities, have less money to spend in those local shops grow the economy?

The issue with all of this is not whether we have a Tory or a Labour Government. It is that Westminster consistently fails to work for the people of Scotland.

17:34

[Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con)]

I find it slightly ironic that we are debating this policy today. This is about political choice. A policy that was brought in under Gordon Brown—a social democratic policy of inclusivity under which everyone buys into the state—is being scrapped in favour of a neoliberal means-tested policy, one that I think most actual Labour socialists would be ashamed of.

I declare an interest: I am a member of Care Campaign for the Vulnerable, which helps elderly residents who have medical issues or are in care. One of the issues for those elderly people is heating. These are the elderly who fought for the reconstruction of Britain in post-war London and across the UK, had rationing for years and years and paid their taxes. We have built this country on the back of their hard work and sacrifice, only to turn around and say, “No. We did not scrap this policy under 14 years of a Conservative Government, but we are scrapping it as the first thing we do as a Labour Government.”

I am not even blaming the Minister, the hon. Member for Ealing North (James Murray). I knew the Minister and his parents when they were councillors with me in Ealing—true socialists, for the many, not the few. I am not sure that applies here. This is a political choice to give Labour’s union paymasters a pay rise over vulnerable pensioners. This is about paying £8 billion or £9 billion for an energy company that will not generate a single watt of energy. This is about political choice and political will. If we, the Conservatives, could keep a Labour policy for our entire time in government, it is shocking and disheartening that the Labour party is making this choice now.

17:36

[Dr Luke Evans (Hinckley and Bosworth) (Con)]

Maybe in two minutes, this debate can best be summed up with a lesser-known fable: the farmer and the viper. A farmer was walking through his field. It was very cold in the winter, and he found a viper just under the bushes. The viper was cold, limp, and almost dead. The farmer knew it was poisonous, but he felt compassion for the creature, picked it up and put it in his pocket. As the creature became warm, it reverted to type and bit him and, as he died in that field, he said, “I got what I deserved. I shouldn’t have shown kindness to a scoundrel.”

That rings true, because after 14 years of the Labour party being out in the cold, the pensioners of this country backed Labour into government, under an impression created by the Prime Minister. Only in May 2024, he goaded our Government, asking

“Will the Prime Minister now rule out taking pensioners’ winter fuel payments off them?”—[Official Report, 1 May 2024; Vol. 749, c. 255.]

If we scratch the surface a little bit deeper, though, we find that, on 25 March 2014, the now Chancellor said that

“We are the party who have said that we will cut the winter fuel allowance for the richest pensioners and means-test that benefit to save money”—[Official Report, 25 March 2014; Vol. 578, c. 174-175.]

so this is not a response to a concocted black hole. This was a choice—as Laura Kuenssberg pointed out, it was a choice to pay the unions on the back of our pensioners.

The public are not stupid. The cartoonist Matt sums it up perfectly when he says, “Surprisingly, Robin Hood, nobody likes your plan to steal from pensioners to give to train drivers.” I was in the Chamber last week when the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero said that Conservative Members should

“show a bit of bravery—even break the Whip and stand out from the crowd.”—[Official Report, 5 September 2024; Vol. 753, c. 461.]

I am disappointed that Labour Members did not take that advice, with only one Labour MP doing so.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)]

I call another doctor, Dr Kieran Mullan.

17:38

[Dr Kieran Mullan (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)]

I rise to express my strong opposition to the Government’s decision to remove the winter fuel payment from millions of pensioners, a move that will strip vital financial support from thousands of my constituents—people who have contributed to our country and helped to build it. The impact in Bexhill and Battle will be profound: Age UK estimates that more than 25,000 pensioners will lose their winter fuel payment as a result of this decision. I hope the Government understand just how significant their decision is in constituencies such as mine.

The Government say that they are focused on increasing the uptake of pension credit. If all those who are eligible to claim pension credit do so, though, the £1.4 billion that the Treasury is expected to save by means-testing the winter fuel payment will be dwarfed by the increase in the cost of pension credit, so the Government have to admit that, ultimately, they do not actually want all those pensioners to take up pension credit.

Our pensioners deserve better. The fall-back of this Government since they took office is to blame the previous Government for all the unpopular actions they have decided to take. They claim the state of the economy is a reason to remove this vital lifeline for pensioners, but let us be clear about the facts. On a broad range of indicators, the situation they have inherited is significantly less challenging than the one we inherited in 2010. We inherited an economy just out of the deepest recession since 1955. Labour left us with public sector net borrowing at 10.3% of GDP; today it is at 4.4%. Unemployment in 2010 was 7.9%; unemployment now stands at 4.1%.

However, from 2010 onwards, through all these difficult times, we made decisions to protect pensioners, and we made sure to keep the winter fuel payment. It was the right thing to do then, and it is the right thing to do now. I ask the Government to listen to MPs from across the House, including some on their own Benches, and think again.

17:40

[Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

The Prime Minister and Labour Members tried to bring this country together after division and turmoil, and today I have to say they have succeeded. They have united the country. They have united it in opposition to this new Labour Government and their attack on older people—the very people who deserve compassion, dignity and respect after their lifetime of hard work.

I stand unashamedly shoulder to shoulder with pensioners in Upper Bann and across the United Kingdom in their opposition to this reckless decision. Our pensioners are being left out in the cold by a Government who promised to restore hope. Where is the compassionate Labour we were promised? Where is the restored hope? What hope do pensioners have in Upper Bann? What hope do they have that this Government might listen, care for them and stop neglecting them? They now feel like they are the target.

To be fair, this Government have offered pensioners something to keep them busy through the cold winter months by suggesting they take a stab at completing the pension credit application form—a form with 243 questions across 24 pages, with a delay of nine weeks for a decision. They are asking pensioners to navigate a bureaucratic nightmare just to receive a fraction of what they need to survive. I stand here today united with my constituents and united with pensioners across this country in opposition to this baseless decision.

In conclusion, no one is arguing that millionaires should get the winter fuel payment, but over 6 million of the pensioners set to be impacted by this decision are living on the state pension. They are living on just over £11,000 a year. Could anyone in this House live on £11,000 a year?

17:42

[George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)]

Mid Norfolk is a profoundly rural constituency, with 130 villages and four towns, and in that very rural constituency, as with all rural areas in this country, people are paying a surcharge because of energy costs and because of rurality. There will be colder weather, and many of my houses are not on the gas grid, while rural areas traditionally have lower incomes and we have an elderly population.

The Treasury, very helpfully—it is a shame Ministers did not read it—did a piece of work last year looking at the risks of rural poverty and the higher risk of rural areas falling into real poverty. The Treasury’s own figures showed that the average household at risk of poverty in rural areas needs an extra £800; or in layman’s terms, there is a two and a half times—or 250%—higher risk of rural houses falling into rural poverty. So I find it completely extraordinary that Labour, which in government professes to care about poverty and berated my party when in government about the risks of rural poverty and of pensioner poverty, has decided as their first act to punish people in rural areas.

It is because of those rural risks that, earlier this year, I and a number of colleagues set up a fair funding alliance, supported by Action with Communities in Rural England, the Countryside Alliance and rural bodies. Higher fuel and energy prices are hitting rural areas, and we would have hoped that this Government might have listened. I am proud that the Conservative party in government upgraded pensions, protected the triple lock and took 200,000 pensioners out of poverty.

[Ben Maguire]

The former Member for Thornbury and Yate introduced the triple lock, which was actually a Liberal Democrat policy. Would the hon. Member care to correct the record on that point?

[George Freeman]

It was my good friend the now noble Lord Willetts in a coalition Government with the Liberal Democrats, and I will happily debate with the hon. Member some of the brave decisions we took.

The point is that this party, the Conservative party, protected pensioners, protected the triple lock and lifted 200,000 people out of poverty, but we see this Labour Government make this decision. The Minister put it very clearly earlier. This is an attack on people who own their own homes, people who have retired in rural areas and those just over the threshold, and in Labour world they are millionaires. This will not be forgotten by people in my constituency, the low-income rural pensioners who have saved up to be able to afford their own home and are now being clobbered. It is unfair, it is unjust, it is unjustifiable, it is unprecedented, and I urge and beg Ministers to think again.

17:44

[Robbie Moore (Keighley and Ilkley) (Con)]

I rise to voice my strong opposition to the Labour Government’s cruel choice to scrap the winter fuel allowance for an estimated 10 million pensioners across the country. I have been contacted by hundreds of pensioners in my constituency who are all incredibly concerned about the dire consequences of this Government’s decision. I met many of them in surgeries and at Keighley agricultural show this weekend, and they are telling me that they are going to struggle to pay their bills this winter. Statistics show that just over 64,000 pensioners across the Bradford district, including 20,000 in my constituency, will be negatively impacted as a result of the Labour Government’s decision. That, quite frankly, is a disgrace.

Citizens Advice, Age UK and hundreds of charities across the UK have also come out against these proposals, warning that low-income households that are already struggling to make ends meet will be forced this winter into impossible choices between heating their homes or putting food on the table. It is incredibly disappointing to see the hon. Member for Shipley (Anna Dixon) from the Bradford district, vote with the Government this evening, ensuring that she does not stand up for the wider Bradford district, as I will be doing.

It is Labour’s choice that we are putting pensioners at risk as a result of this decision, and Labour’s choice that is putting my constituents, pensioners who are vulnerable, in the dire position of having to decide whether they heat their homes or put food on the table this winter. I only hope that quick changes will be made to ensure that pensioners are looked after in the run-up to winter.

17:46

[Dave Doogan (Angus and Perthshire Glens) (SNP)]

Some 19,500 pensioners in Angus and Perthshire Glens will be stripped of their winter fuel payment by this Labour Government. I cannot tell the House how cold it gets in Angus and Perthshire Glens in wintertime, but if anyone on the Labour Front Bench wants to come and sit in my garage on a January day, I will turn the heating off in the whole property and they can see what it will be like for some pensioners in my constituency.

I will not be supporting this measure because it is incompetent. It is incompetent operationally, because it does not take cognisance of co-morbidities in already frail people, or of what will happen to those people as they budget to try to accommodate this unnecessary cut to their income. It is fiscally incompetent, because it does not take cognisance of whole-system costs—people presenting at hospital or going into care prematurely because they cannot stay at home, because of what they do to try to make ends meet. It does not take account of the cost to the supposed saving of £1.5 billion once pension credit is taken up fully, rendering the saving meaningless. It is morally incompetent because, as we have heard from professionals in the Chamber, as a result of this decision, people will die.

Moreover, this measure was not in the Labour party manifesto, which is reprehensible, and it ignores the cultural sensitivities of older people, many of whom find asking for help anathema; they will never do it, no matter how entitled they are. I very much hope that when the Minister sums up the debate, she will estimate how many of the 209 extra Labour MPs in this House, including 37 in Scotland, would be here if cutting the winter fuel payment had been on the face of their manifesto. It would be very many fewer.

17:48

[Sir Ashley Fox (Bridgwater) (Con)]

I speak on behalf of 19,300 pensioners in my constituency who are set to lose their winter fuel allowance. Some 23% of my constituents are aged 65 or over, which is well above the national average. Many retired people in my constituency have done the right thing: they have worked all their lives, paid their national insurance stamp, and now have a small private pension and modest savings. It is because they have done the right thing that many of those pensioners are not eligible to claim pension credit. This Government are choosing to punish them for the prudent and conscientious choices they made through their working lives by withdrawing this important means of support.

Labour justified the decision to cut the winter fuel allowance by talking about its alleged poor economic inheritance. Let us take a moment to clear up some facts. In 2010, the budget deficit was about 11% of GDP at £157 billion. Today, it is about 4% of GDP. In 2010, unemployment was about 8%, and today it has halved and is about 4%. In May 2010, inflation was 3.4%. Today it is 2%. This is not the worst economic inheritance since the war.

[Patrick Spencer]

I am sure my hon. Friend will agree when I say that the economic inheritance that the Government received is incredible, considering that we had to deal with the covid pandemic crisis as well as the Russian invasion of Ukraine. That put huge pressure on our economy.

[Sir Ashley Fox]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. It just emphasises the fact that when the Chancellor says that it is a tough decision that has to be made, she is actually making a political choice. She has chosen to give train drivers earning £60,000 a year a pay rise of 15%. She has chosen to cut the income of retired people with a pension of £15,000 a year. That was her choice, and the British people will judge her and the Labour party on it.

17:51

[Nick Timothy (West Suffolk) (Con)]

Let us be absolutely clear about what has happened today: every single Labour MP who voted to cut the winter fuel allowance has broken their promise to the country. Pensioners know that before the election Labour denied that it was going to do this, but they might not know that the Chancellor had been planning it for 10 years. In 2014 she said:

“we will cut the winter fuel allowance for the richest pensioners and means-test that benefit to save money”.—[Official Report, 25 March 2014; Vol. 578, c. 174.]

Are we supposed to believe that she changed her mind after that and then changed it back again shortly after the general election? I do not think so.

There may be a case for means-testing, but the Chancellor is cutting the payment not just for the richest pensioners, but for pensioners on very modest incomes. She is also not making the case for it. She is asking the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to do her dirty work for her. If winter fuel payments are to be means-tested, surely the proceeds should go towards low-income pensioners and the cost of social care, but they are not. They are going on above-inflation pay rises for the likes of Labour donors ASLEF.

17:52

[Richard Tice (Boston and Skegness) (Reform)]

Last Friday in Boston I was stopped by a pensioner, a lovely lady called Elizabeth, who shook my hand and burst into tears—uncontrollable tears of genuine fear. She represents more than 22,200 pensioners in Boston and Skegness who will lose out through this cruel policy. It was the fear of being cold this winter—not knowing how cold—and the fear of what will happen to energy prices in October. How high will they go in January? It was the unbelievable fear of not knowing whether she will see the end of winter, because that is the reality: older, colder people die early.

We have heard about choices a lot today. It is true that this Government have made a calculated deliberate, heartless, cruel choice to enrich their union paymasters, to enrich public sector workers with no requirements on productivity, to enrich well-paid train drivers and to impoverish pensioners. Let me tell this House that voters will not forget and they will not forgive.

17:54

[Harriet Cross (Gordon and Buchan) (Con)]

Some 17,047 pensioners in Gordon and Buchan will lose their winter fuel payment following today’s vote by the Labour party, but this decision for my constituents shows that they are being let down by their Governments at Holyrood and at Westminster. The Labour party is choosing to let them down by cutting the winter fuel payment, and the SNP is choosing not to pass on Barnett consequentials. In north-east Scotland, winters are longer and harsher than in most of the country. Our temperatures often fall below minus 10°C for a sustained period, and in recent years it has not been unusual to have had minus 20°C in Aberdeenshire. The winter fuel payment is not a luxury for our pensioners; it is a lifeline.

This is the Labour party’s choice. As much as it would like to explain that choice away, it has chosen to cut the winter fuel payment, and it must face what that means. Labour’s choice means that our pensioners now have to make their own choices, so Labour’s choice has become a pensioner’s choice.

Perhaps most shocking of all is Labour’s breathtaking hypocrisy on this issue. In 2017, Labour Members on these Opposition Benches had their own research showing that cutting winter fuel payments could lead to almost 4,000 excess deaths. They then vehemently opposed any changes to what they called that “vital” support. What has changed? Have pensioners suddenly become more resilient to the cold, or has the Labour party simply abandoned its principles to fund its own political choices?

Many pensioners in my constituency still rely on solid fuels such as oil, so once a year, going into winter, they fill up their tanks. Payment for that will be coming shortly—before November, and way before next year and any pension rises. How will those pensioners afford to fill their tanks and heat their homes in the months to come?

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)]

I am grateful for all the bobbing, but we must now go to the Front-Bench speakers. I call the shadow Minister.

17:56

[Mims Davies (East Grinstead and Uckfield) (Con)]

I welcome the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Wycombe (Emma Reynolds), to her place and wish her well. It is a pleasure to close the debate on behalf of His Majesty’s official Opposition, but sadly that is where any pleasure at being at this Dispatch Box on this matter ends.

We have debated a clear and stark choice made by the new Labour Government, the Prime Minister and his “This black hole is what made me do it” Chancellor. It is a patently poor political choice that is wrong-headed and frankly a disgrace. It is a blatant choice for union paymasters while axing key support for 10 million pensioners. It is a reward for Labour’s funders. None of that was in the manifesto or on election leaflets—it is pure subterfuge and hoodwinking.

No charity or group fully backs this measure, given the timescales and its cack-handed and draconian delivery. The Government can bluster and say with the faux anger we heard earlier that they have been acting with the hand they were given. They can say that they simply had no choice and that this was a necessity due to the fantasy inheritance they were allegedly left. Let us look at the facts. UK unemployment sits at 4.1%, sterling is up against the dollar and growth is outpacing inflation. Despite some loyal speeches from new Government Members and passionate speeches from all around the Chamber, Labour Members know—many of them were blank, mute, absent or perhaps even stunned—that Ministers are targeting our pensioners with so little notice.

As the nights draw in, higher winter fuel bills loom. To dress up this measure under the cloak of financial necessity is staggering. It is a costly mistake from the Treasury under the Labour Chancellor that the DWP will have to shoulder, moving staff swiftly to cover the incoming impact of those applying for pension credit. What about those who had planned to pay for their pre-Christmas tank of off-grid oil with their £300 of expected support? The demand surge for pension credit must be met in both cost and delivery, and DWP Ministers will be scratching their heads about where the resource will come from for the reported surge in pension credit applications.

[Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)]

rose—

[Mims Davies]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman if he can tell us why he thinks this is a good idea.

[Robin Swann]

I can assure the shadow Minister that I do not think it is a good idea. On the point that she and others have raised about no assessment having been done, I represent Northern Ireland, where 49.5% of homes rely solely on oil for heat. Does she think that the Government realise the additional pressures that will be put on Northern Ireland pensioners following the decision? Our Minister for Communities announced today that 306,000 people will lose the payment.

[Mims Davies]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for standing up for his constituents. I agree about the disproportionate and deep impact on our cold spots in Northern Ireland, rural areas, the north and Scotland.

This benefit reform will not be easy. We bear the scars on the Opposition Benches from universal credit, but the change was truly worth it. As the hon. Gentleman said, what does the impact assessment actually say? Who gains, and does it stack up financially? I think we all know that it does not, else the Government would have not ignored the Social Security Advisory Committee process and its scrutiny. They would have done a proper impact assessment and a regulatory assessment, and they would not have tried to avoid a vote on the Floor of the House.

Government Members will troop through the Lobby again, as fodder for an out-of-touch Prime Minister, or they may abstain to avoid the eyes of the Chancellor, deep in the hope that spraying billions of pounds on gimmicks like a shell company called GB Energy will be worth it. They must be aware that they will have to face people in their communities who will want to understand why a few millionaires were worth the attack on millions. Let us take June. She told the BBC that she will struggle to stay warm this winter. She is already planning her jumpers, cardigans and candles. My constituent Valerie from East Grinstead wrote to me—one of almost 20,000 affected—and said:

“I am 80 years old and live on a State Pension of less than £11k, not the…£13k that I keep reading about… I don’t know who gets that much but I certainly don’t!”

She goes on to say that it will be

“a long, cold winter… please do what you can to get this dreadful decision reversed.”

Labour Members could join us in the Lobby to back pensioners like Valerie.

The Opposition welcome the household support fund extension and the commitment to the Conservatives’ triple lock, but we knew going into winter, with energy bills going up, that the right thing to do was to help with cost of living payments. In my experience as an MP and a Minister, I know that the worries and responsibilities of this job come to all Members in the dead of night. It will be in the darkness and the cold in the small hours that women and men who have served this country and supported families and communities will be lying awake worried, fretting and feeling afraid. For those who are frail and living with a disability or a health condition, warmth matters to their health, Loneliness, isolation and worry will eat away at them, because they cannot take a job or do some extra hours to help make ends meet. Medics have warned that this will have serious health threats, as has Age UK.

Pensioners on low incomes matter. They truly are the people who know how to budget. They are the people who eke out and work out their finances. Nobody will work out how this new Labour Government of service has targeted those people so shamefully this autumn. Those families will not forget. They are not statistics. They are Valerie and June, and thousands of others in every community and constituency. They are proud pensioners, who too often go without but do not tell others that they are. Again this winter, they will go without for others. This is horrific. It is a blight on this new Government. It is not right for this to happen to pensioners on their watch. It is their choice. I ask that hon. Members and Ministers do the right thing and stop this callous cut now.

18:09

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Emma Reynolds)]

This has been an important debate, with many hon. and right hon. Members making important contributions. My hon. Friends the Members for Wirral West (Matthew Patrick), for Bracknell (Peter Swallow), for Bishop Auckland (Sam Rushworth), for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh (Chris Murray), for Rugby (John Slinger) and for Makerfield (Josh Simons) rightly spoke about the importance of this Government’s action to restore economic stability so that we can rebuild our economy and our public services. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Northfield (Laurence Turner) rightly reminded us that a strong economy needs strong public services. Many hon. Members, both on—

[Alison Griffiths (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton) (Con)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Emma Reynolds]

I am going to make a little bit of progress.

Many hon. Members, both on—

[Alison Griffiths]

Will the Minister give way?

[Emma Reynolds]

I said I will make some progress, thank you.

Many hon. Members, both on the Government side and on the Opposition Benches, including my hon. Friend the Member for Earley and Woodley (Yuan Yang) and the hon. Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris), spoke about the work they are doing to encourage pensioners in their own constituencies to apply for pension credit to get the support they need.

I want to start by saying some more about the principles that underlie the Government’s approach to means-testing winter fuel payments. First, most help should be targeted to those who most need it. Secondly, significant support for all pensioners will come around via the triple lock. Thirdly, alongside that, extra help will be available to those on low incomes.

[Dave Doogan]

Will the Minister give way?

[Emma Reynolds]

I will in a minute.

Before I do that, I want to say something about means-testing. I have found, both in this debate and in the earlier debate in Westminster Hall where no Conservative Members were present, that there is a lot of support for means-testing the winter fuel payment. We heard from the right hon. Member for Herne Bay and Sandwich (Sir Roger Gale), who said in this debate that he supports means-testing this benefit. We heard that the right hon. Member for North West Essex (Mrs Badenoch), who is the Conservative leadership contest favourite, also supports means-testing this benefit.

[Sir Roger Gale]

The hon. Lady has misrepresented me. She knows perfectly well that while I said I supported the principle, I abhor the way she is going about it.

[Emma Reynolds]

The right hon. Gentleman did indeed say that he supported the principle. The Liberal Democrats, in their manifesto of 2017, also said that they supported means-testing this benefit.

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

I thank the Minister for giving way, but I think she fails to understand that while we accept the principle of means-testing—we accept that there are many pensioners who can afford not to have the winter fuel payment—it is the manner in which the Labour Government intend to bring it in, with a sharp cliff edge and no accounting for the people close to the pension credit limit, that we find abhorrent.

[Emma Reynolds]

I will come on to that point, but first I want to say how crucial it is to boost the uptake of pension credit.

We are taking immediate action to increase that take-up, given that up to an estimated 880,000 eligible pensioners are missing out on this support, worth £3,900 on average. I hope there can be some consensus across the House that we need to work together to boost that uptake. That is why last week we launched an initial pension credit week of action to boost awareness. We will continue to raise awareness until the deadline, 21 December, for making a successful backdated pension credit claim.

[Dave Doogan]

I grateful to the Minister for giving way. On awareness, is she aware how much more it costs to heat a home in winter in Blairgowrie, compared with Brighton or Belgravia?

[Emma Reynolds]

I will come on to the issue the hon. Gentleman raises in just a moment.

On pension credit, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and the Deputy Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner) have written to all local authorities asking them to redouble their efforts to reach those pensioners who could benefit from pension credit. [Interruption.] The Opposition Front Bench might grumble, but it is a far sight more than they ever did when they were in power. We are joining forces with charities such as Age UK and Citizens Advice to encourage pensioners to check their eligibility and apply. We will be delivering a major campaign in print and broadcast media, including to urge people to reach out to retired family, friends and neighbours to get them to check if they are eligible.

[Dr Mullan]

Will the Minister give way, on that point?

[Emma Reynolds]

No, I will not.

For the very first time, we are writing to all pensioners in receipt of housing benefit who are potentially eligible to encourage them to claim pension credit—again, something that the last Conservative Government never did.

[Wendy Morton (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Emma Reynolds]

No, I will not.

Over the last five weeks, we have already seen claims for pension credit more than double, and, backed by more than 450 additional staff, we will ensure that claims are processed as quickly as possible.

As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions said in the earlier debate, we will bring forward the merger of housing benefit and pension credit as soon as that is operationally possible, something that the last Government promised but failed to deliver. We are also taking action to ensure that all pensioners get the income that they deserve. Despite being urged by the Institute for Fiscal Studies and others to drop the triple lock during the election campaign, the Government are steadfast in their commitment to it. The triple lock has seen the state pension increase by £2,700 over the last five years, and it was increased by £900 this year and by £970 in the previous year. According to figures released today, which still need to be confirmed, in October we will see the provision of an extra £460 a year from next April.

[Stephen Gethins (Arbroath and Broughty Ferry) (SNP)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Emma Reynolds]

No, I will not.

Moreover, the warm home discount of £150 will help low-income pension households this year. That is critically important, because it is not just for the lowest-income pensioners on pension credit. It is for pensioners on low incomes who have high energy costs, and it will be open to application in October.

[Alison Griffiths]

rose—

[Emma Reynolds]

I have said to the hon. Lady that I will not give way, and I will not give way, so she should sit down.

The Government encourage Members to boost awareness and encourage people to apply for the warm home discount.

[Alison Griffiths]

rose—

[Emma Reynolds]

I will give way.

[Alison Griffiths]

I thank the Minister, but I should like her to explain why this Government have failed to extract any concessions from the train drivers and their union paymasters.

[Emma Reynolds]

rose—

[Alison Griffiths]

I have not finished. The Government’s “digital centre of government” was all ready to use technology to improve public services, but there has been a complete failure of negotiation, and the price is being paid by our pensioners.

[Emma Reynolds]

I honestly think that Conservative Members have some brass neck. During their time in power, we lost an average of 3 million working days a year to strikes because of their failure to deal with industrial action, and we lost 1.4 million NHS appointments which were cancelled, which meant that pensioners and others were in pain for longer than they needed to be. We will not take lectures from the Conservatives. We have had to take this difficult decision to means-test the winter fuel payment because of the £22 billion black hole in year, this year. [Interruption.] They may not want to hear it, but they should apologise for leaving that black hole. It was created by repeated and reckless unfunded spending—

[Graham Stuart]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)]

Is the point of order directly relevant to the current proceedings?

[Graham Stuart]

Yes, Madam Deputy Speaker. I just want some guidance from you on whether it can be appropriate for Ministers and others on the Government Benches who have been directly funded by the trade unions not to declare that personal benefit before doing something like this, which is hurting millions of pensioners.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Members are guided to talk about any such conflict before they speak on the Floor of the House. I am not sure that this has a direct impact on proceedings, but the right hon. Gentleman’s point has been noted.

[Emma Reynolds]

Again and again, the Conservatives are dividing working people and pensioners, and that is disgraceful.

In conclusion, means-testing the winter fuel payment is a difficult decision. [Interruption.] I receive no funding from ASLEF, so the right hon. Gentleman can withdraw his comment. We are targeting support at the poorest pensioners, boosting the uptake of pension credit, maintaining the triple lock for pensioners, extending the household support fund and the warm homes discount and, in the longer term, introducing a warm homes plan to insulate people’s homes. These are the right decisions to take. This Government are determined the fix the foundations of our economy so that we can deliver the change on which we were elected, and which this country and our pensioners so desperately need. Bringing down NHS waiting times—

[Stuart Andrew (Daventry) (Con)]

claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).

Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.

Question agreed to.

Main question put accordingly.

18:15

Division 15

Ayes: 214

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Conservative: 110
Liberal Democrat: 69
Scottish National Party: 9
Independent: 5
Democratic Unionist Party: 5
Reform UK: 4
Green Party: 4
Plaid Cymru: 4
Traditional Unionist Voice: 1
Alliance: 1
Ulster Unionist Party: 1

Noes: 335

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Labour: 335
Independent: 1