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Live Debate
Commons Chamber
Commons Chamber
Tuesday 10th June 2025
(began 2 weeks ago)
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This debate has concluded
11:34
Oral questions: Energy Security and Net Zero
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**** Possible New Speaker ****
The The title The title of The title of the The title of the bill The title of the bill sit The title of the bill sit down for today. Second Reading.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Second Reading, what day? Tuesday, 17 June. And happy birthday, Mr Speaker.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
And happy birthday, Mr Speaker.
11:35
Q1. What progress his Department has made on advancing the Track-2 Acorn cluster. (904502)
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11:35
Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Croydon West, Labour)
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**** Possible New Speaker ****
And happy birthday, Mr Speaker. We now start with questions to the Secretary of State for energy security and is. Question number one. Minister.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Minister. Happy birthday, Mr Speaker. We have always been clear we support the Acorn Project. I and my
the Acorn Project. I and my colleagues have had many discussions with industry. We know how important
it is. As we have said before, the decision is a matter for the
Spending Review. But we are very
close to having those decisions. Can I thank him for speaking up on behalf of the project, which I know
many members have done?
11:36
Seamus Logan MP (Aberdeenshire North and Moray East, Scottish National Party)
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Thank you and many happy returns, Mr Speaker. Proposals for carbon
capture and storage near my constituency have been kicked into the long grass by successive UK
governments. Last week a report warned of the need for urgent action to protect the energy supply chain and accelerate the just transition.
and accelerate the just transition.
Thousands and thousands of jobs are at risk. I know the Secretary of State recognises the Acorn Project is a strategic cornerstone of the
transition to a low carbon future to
economic growth.
But will his government finally commit the funding necessary for the Acorn Project to proceed?
Project to proceed?
11:36
Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Croydon West, Labour)
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We know how important this is Andy Climate Change Committee as we know said there is no route to net
zero that doesn't include carbon
capture and up to 50,000 jobs across
the UK which are good and well paid, this government has shown its commitment to carbon capture already with a £21.7 billion investment. I'm afraid the honourable member has to wait till the Spending Review before
the final decisions. But I hope he will agree that we are putting in place a very ambitious, substantial carbon capture plans which will
carbon capture plans which will drive growth across the country.
11:37
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This goes some way to industrialising areas of Scotland
and that is much needed. I welcomed the commitment of £200 million from the National Wealth Fund for future
industry in my constituency. In order to avoid us again being in the precarious position of private
capital and foreign government
ownership dictating future energy industries, does the government plan
on taking any ownership stake in the industries that are going to be coming at Grangemouth?
11:37
Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Croydon West, Labour)
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My honourable friend is right to say we have lost thousands of jobs under the previous government. Whether it is in ceramics, chemicals or steel. The previous government
saw industries really through the
rearview mirror. We know they will
forge our future and that is why we
are rushing to get to clean energy by the year 2030 to bring prices down. It is why we support industries through the supercharger and why we are looking through the Industrial Strategy to provide more
support to crucial foundation industries.
11:38
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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Happy birthday. Question number two.
two.
Been Been busy Been busy since Been busy since we Been busy since we last Been busy since we last met Been busy since we last met for questions. We confirmed rooftop
solar panels will be standard on newbuild homes. We funded 650 million of clean energy upgrades for more than 200 buildings. Solar projects delivered for 11 schools across the country. Royal assent for
Great British Energy, the first national publicly owned energy company in 70 years.
We launched the green energy task. The partnership with Norway. We kickstarted community energy across the country. community energy across the country. We have much more to do. But we are doing more than any government to reduce reliance on fossil fuels.
11:39
Tim Farron MP (Westmorland and Lonsdale, Liberal Democrat)
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I thank the Minister for his
answer. Much of the 1,500 farms in the area have rivers or Becks
running through them and since we are the most beautiful and wettest place in England, that is a lot of potential and mostly untapped
energy. Would the Secretary of State and the Minister meet with me and
and the Minister meet with me and
hydro energy experts to consider a new nationwide project to support farmers to have small hydroelectricity schemes on their farms, to diversify farm income, provide clean energy and tarnish natural renewable energy for the
wider economy?
11:39
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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I will not be drawn on confirming if it is the most beautiful part of
England. But what he proposes sounds like a fantastic idea and I am happy to meet him to discuss it. We see
huge potential for a range of renewable energies. These smaller scale projects we think what could deliver not just the benefit for the deliver not just the benefit for the system but also give community benefits.
11:40
Bill Esterson MP (Sefton Central, Labour)
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Chair of the select committee.
electricity, from gas to electricity
in home heating is an important part of reducing reliance on fossil fuels. But at the hearing last week, we heard real concerns that people
we heard real concerns that people
in energy debt are not able to disconnect from gas and therefore are still stuck with paying standing
charges. Can the Minister say what the plans are to remove this problem and ensure more people take part in
the opportunities presented by electrified home heat?
11:40
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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My honourable friend makes important points. First about the importance of decarbonising heating across the country. A route to
across the country. A route to
delivering cheaper bills but also to reach decarbonisation target and the electrification of home heat is important to that. The important
question and I know this is shared with Ofgem, we have been looking at a scheme for those kinds of questions. We want to support as many households as possible to move
on to what is cheaper heating in the long term and that is what we continue to push forward.
11:41
Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)
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Thank you, happy birthday. Changing the language about UK
Government on the autonomy paves the way for a bright new future between
two kingdom so does the Minister
feel it is right to make a decision on the UK-Morocco power project
which could potentially add 8% of grid requirements, clean energy for the future?
11:41
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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The honourable gentleman and I have discussed this before. He is right to point out we see a very
important partnership with Morocco across our economy. We have outlined more of that in the last few days.
Is one for a private company. We Is one for a private company. We have been looking at that proposal as the last government did and we will say more in due course.
11:42
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Thank you and happy birthday. Given the enormous potential for renewable energy generation across
Scotland, including in my constituency, does the Minister recognise that accelerating community owned energy project and crucially improving local
transmission infrastructure, would reduce fossil fuel reliant and delivered direct economic benefits
to local people? to local people?
11:42
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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My honourable friend is right. Representing as he does a beautiful part of Scotland and one with huge
potential for these schemes. That is why Great British Energy announced £4 million of funding for community projects in Scotland working with
the Scottish government to drive it forward. Because we do see as pointed out the benefit not just
delivering clean power, but for the social and economic value it brings to the communities hosting it. We are clear community owned energy is
a big potential, untapped potential
at the moment, and has huge benefits for the community and we want to see more of it in Great British Energy
will help deliver.
will help deliver.
11:43
Carla Denyer MP (Bristol Central, Green Party)
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I thank the Minister for his response on reducing reliance on fossil fuels. No more backing for oil and gas is vital to protect our children's futures. But that change
requires a plan to future-proof British industries which works for everyone, particularly those currently working in the carbon
sectors. Would the Minister and his
colleagues commit to punishing -- pushing a job plan for how workers can be supported in the transition, particularly with retraining
opportunities?
11:43
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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We consulted on a detailed plan in the North Sea which include a detailed section on workforce planning. I'm sure the honourable
lady was able to submit a response. We will look carefully at her views. We take the question of workforce
seriously on this. Jobs will be
created across the clean power mission, including the biggest upgrade to the transmission infrastructure we have seen in many years. Much this seems to be opposed by her party.
11:44
Catherine Atkinson MP (Derby North, Labour)
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Thank you and happy birthday. This brilliant announcement backing
This brilliant announcement backing
This brilliant announcement backing
Creates more skilled jobs while also delivering clean, secure energy. Which does not rely on fossil fuels. Even when the sun doesn't shine and the wind isn't blowing. Does the
Minister agree the decision shows British distance, supported by this government, again leading the way?
11:44
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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My honourable friend will not be surprised that I completely agree.
What we announced today is a new golden age of nuclear power in this country. After decades of dither and
delay. The last switch on of a nuclear power station was before I was even born. We are now driving
Forward to the real potential we see from nuclear power and my honourable friend the Secretary of State will make a statement on this later. This
is how we deliver thousands of well-paid jobs across the country.
Delivering the important energy security we need. I hope we will see SMRs in every part of the UK SMRs in every part of the UK including in Scotland.
11:45
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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Question three, Mr Speaker.
that? With your permission, I will answer question three, eight, 15, 21 and 22 together. We launched the new
future homes standard last week which will ensure the majority of
new build houses will have solar panels installed as standard. Ending the absurd situation the last government left when you housing was
built without solar panels. We are kickstarting the solar revolution and the roadmap will lay out how we
and the roadmap will lay out how we build cheap clean power for families build cheap clean power for families
11:46
Lee Barron MP (Corby and East Northamptonshire, Labour)
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Happy birthday. Many areas the
contingency don't have solar panels. The school has written to me asking for solar panels on their roof, they said it would help improve the
education and cut their bills. One pupil wrote, "We may be a small school but we can be big sometimes.
" Will my honourable friend support their campaign and support these community activists in the constituency?
11:46
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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Can I thank him for the question.
Can I the pupils at the primary school because it is incredible,
their spirits, and it is young people right across the country who care about these issues, they are pointing at something really
important which is we have this free resource of the sun, we should use
it, and solar panels on schools and elsewhere as big project of Great British Energy.
11:47
Dr Allison Gardner MP (Stoke-on-Trent South, Labour)
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Happy birthday Mr Speaker. In my
constituency, businesses like Goodwin International are keen to
invest in rooftop solar. They cannot get National Grid connectivity. In
the case of Well Healthcare, they will have to wait. And we are
frustrated with the building of solar farms when there are empty
rooms. Will the Secretary of State meet with me to discuss the challenges and opportunities
businesses in my constituency have in transitioning to clean energy?
11:47
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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My honourable friend makes an
important one. The first is on the grid connections. With the good
reforms we are doing, we will end the zombie QE have where projects are in the queue taking up space
they are not going to connect or not going to connect in time. That will open up future projects like hers.
On the point about industrial estates, this is something I will
give her a sneak preview in the solar roadmap. It is an important point she makes and the Minister for
has volunteered to meet.
11:48
Mr Connor Rand MP (Altrincham and Sale West, Labour)
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Thanks to Great British Energy,
health centre in my constituency is set to receive solar panel
installation which will cover its entire energy bills for the summer. My local hospital will also benefit
and it will save my local NHS trust between £4 million and £5 million a
year which can be reinvested back to front line services. Despite the
doom mongering on net zero we hear from the opposition benches, does the Secretary of State agree with me that this shows the power of helping
our public services and creating jobs?
11:48
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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If I congratulate my honourable friend for the school and the NHS
benefiting from what Great British Energy is doing. He makes such an
important point here, the net zero
is and agenda cutting bills for
frontline services and putting money to fund services. Who could possibly be against that?
be against that?
11:49
Tristan Osborne MP (Chatham and Aylesford, Labour)
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In my constituency, a company is working with Octopus Energy to install roof solar panels and heat pumps in social housing. Can the
Minister confirm how we will expand on such schemes using tariffs like the tenant power tariff to reduce energy costs for a most honourable constituents?
11:49
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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My honourable friend makes a
really good point. There is huge potential working with energy companies, working with social housing providers, and others, to
find ways in which this is a true part of an antipoverty strategy. It
is something that we are working on and will have more to say about in the weeks and months ahead. the weeks and months ahead.
11:50
Lee Pitcher MP (Doncaster East and the Isle of Axholme, Labour)
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Happy birthday Mr Speaker. I welcome the news that one of British energies first projects will install
solar panels on schools and hospitals and I will benefit from that in my constituency. I've heard from local sports clubs who are keen
to be part of the green energy revolution, but are facing barriers
around the installation of funding. The Secretary of State tell us how Great British Energy schemes can be Great British Energy schemes can be extended to help sports facilities?
11:50
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I love this idea from a honourable Friend, it is such a good
idea. Local sports clubs and lots of other community organisations can benefit from this. I will take this away and suggested to British
energy.
energy.
11:50
Rt Hon Sir Roger Gale MP (Herne Bay and Sandwich, Conservative)
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Mr Speaker, 'The Times' has mentioned this, you are catching up
on me, have a happy birthday. Mr Speaker, yesterday from that
Dispatch Box, a government minister so that only 1% of farmland was being damaged by development. And
yet, solar panels are smothering
East Kent. The best farmland, and it
has got to stop. Given what the Secretary of State has said today, what further steps is he going to
take to make sure that we protect
our farmland and really do move solar panels onto rooftops and onto car parks and public buildings?
11:51
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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There are a few questions in there I will try and answer them briefly. On the point about the
amount of land, even on the biggest solar ambitions, I do say to him, it
is less than 1% of land that will be covered. On his point about solar
rooftops, he's actually right. We
need that too. That is why we have put an end to years of dither and
delay. Last week we announced that, as standard, new homes will have solar panels fitted on them.
It makes total sense. makes total sense.
11:52
Wera Hobhouse MP (Bath, Liberal Democrat)
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My solar panels on my roof started working last week and I'm
very excited. If you have not got one business week, maybe give yourself an early birthday present
and make sure you have got your own range. My scheme was made possible
through something called Solar Together organised by the council. These schemes are so important to
encourage people how to go about installing solar panels on their
roofs. We make sure that funding for these schemes continues to go into the future?
11:52
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I congratulate the honourable Lady on having taken that step. I
think she makes a really important point, lots of people want to do this but there is an upfront cost
barrier. One of the things that my department is doing is working with the private sector, with social
housing providers and others to say, what other ways we break down these barriers, these upfront cost
barriers, so that more people to clearly those who can't necessarily afford the upfront costs can benefit
from solar power and cheaper bills? from solar power and cheaper bills?
11:53
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A non-profit community group in my constituency have done excellent
work to raise funding to install solar panels on local schools, and developed solar car park. They also
educate local resident on how the utilise community energy to reduce energy bills which we have all seen
rise under this government. What steps is the Secretary of State taking across government to ensure
that community projects such as this are implemented more widely?
11:53
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I thank the gentleman for his
question. I 100% agree with him about the role of community energy providers. It is one of the tasks of
Great British Energy. I hope he can persuade his frontbench to convert to be supporters of Great British
Energy because one of the things it will do, and we are happy to work with him on this, is unleash a wave
of community energy across our country doing precisely the things he's talking about. he's talking about.
11:54
Ellie Chowns MP (North Herefordshire, Green Party)
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Thank you Mr Speaker. I am delighted that the government has
seen the light on solar PV, and recognise what is important is that
this is on part of the sunlit uplands for homes that are generally
fit for the future. Can I ask, does he recognise that energy efficiency is a crucial part of energy
security? Will he meet with me to discuss how we can ensure that the
Future Homes Standard ensures that every home is truly fit for the future including ensuring that they
are zero carbon? are zero carbon?
11:54
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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Let me first wish her luck on the leadership bid. Anyone who wants to be leader of a political party, I
still sort of think you should take advice from my experience, I see the
former Liberal Democrat leader
nodding. On the specific point she raises, we do what the Future Homes Standard to really work. This was
the plan that previously governed had for 2016 and the Conservative
government got rid of it. We want it to work, we wanted to make a real
difference was it makes financial sense as it means we don't have to retrofit homes after the event and much greater cost.
much greater cost.
11:55
Dr Danny Chambers MP (Winchester, Liberal Democrat)
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Thank you Mr Speaker. I wish you
a very happy 40th birthday. I was
really impressed that Holy Trinity Church is a heritage building that
managed to increase the energy
rating from F to A. Is there any advice or guidance that the Secretary of State can give to
communities who wish to improve heritage buildings, listed buildings, and other older
properties, and there are often planning issues putting on solar
panels, installation, and other energy efficiency things?
11:56
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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Let me congratulate his immunity
group. This whole set of questions
has shown huge untapped potential on all sides of the house that there is. I would say to Matt things. I
will take this back to GB Energy, the role of community groups, and potential partners is very
important. Secondly he makes an important point in planning guidance. Sometimes the planning
rules are OK but the guidance of the problem. And it puts bureaucratic hurdles in the way. I am working
with my colleagues at MHCLG to make sure that the guidance is clear to
local councils and where there are barriers.
barriers.
11:57
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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Question number four Mr Speaker.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you Mr Speaker put up with permission I will answer questions four and 13 together. Increasing grid capacity is critical. We are
grid capacity is critical. We are halving the develop in time for new transmission of the structure to reforms to planning and supply
reforms to planning and supply chains, delivering grid capacity needed to achieve clean power by 2030. And making the doubling of
11:57
Sarah Green MP (Chesham and Amersham, Liberal Democrat)
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2030. And making the doubling of electricity demand by 2050.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank the Minister for the response was not some projects awaiting up to 15 years. The secretary of state early referred to
secretary of state early referred to a zombie waiting list. Can I ask what concrete steps the Department
11:58
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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**** Possible New Speaker ****
what concrete steps the Department is taking to drastically cut that waiting list? We have outlined some significant
**** Possible New Speaker ****
We have outlined some significant reforms to the connections queue.
reforms to the connections queue. There are currently more than 740 GW in connection for that queue, clearly that is an unsustainable amount of demand to connect to the
grid. Most of it does not really exist, as honourable Friend pointed out. We have put forward something to get reforms around prioritising
based on when projects are ready to connect to the grid. But also the
strategic importance to the grid itself. The Clean Power Action Plan will drive forward those strategic
outcomes.
The work is underway right now with any Esso considering the
proposals. It will free up a huge amount and allow new projects to
amount and allow new projects to join. And to allow demand projects that help deliver economic growth.
11:58
Olly Glover MP (Didcot and Wantage, Liberal Democrat)
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In my oxygen constituency, sites host a growing range of scientific
businesses including proposed for growth. Major housing growth
continues. But the future of such a
partnership has raised concerns that grid constraints are causing silicon delays to decarbonisation activities
and connection of local power grid. What steps is the medicine taking to address these problems and create an electricity grid fit for the 21st- electricity grid fit for the 21st- century Oxfordshire?
11:59
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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He makes a very important point as to why this work is so important.
The connections reform is crucial so we have a queue of projects that are strategically relevant and ready to be delivered, and the second part is
we have to build significantly more grid infrastructure and we built in the past. That is incumbent on all
members of this House not to oppose grid infrastructure and come here
that they want new demand projects they need to take a practical
approach that says we will have to build new grid in this country if we want to unlock huge potential we have for Growth Zones another demand have for Growth Zones another demand projects in the economy.
11:59
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The Strategic Defence Review of this government and the previous government highlighted the risks of
climate change to security. Does the Minister agree that the increasing
opposition by the Conservatives and others on the benches opposite to team power infrastructure and increasing our grid capacity across
the country is not just economically illiterate, but is also a risk to our national security? our national security?
12:00
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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My honourable friend as so often
is correct with these matters. And a few months ago the Front Benches
agreed with us any of these questions but they have suddenly changed their position. The truth is, this is not only critically
important for delivering our energy security now and into the future, increasing the uncertain world. But
also to tackle the climate crisis which is so much of an impact on our lives now and in the future. And the
economic opportunity of the 21st century.
century.
12:00
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We need to make sure
of solar farms. We on this side of the House have been clear about the security risk China poses in our own
12:01
Joy Morrissey MP (Beaconsfield, Conservative)
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energy supply chain. So will the Secretary of State confirm if he discussed this issue in the recent meeting he had with Chinese
12:01
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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officials and if not, why not?
Are Are announcing Are announcing schemes Are announcing schemes to Are announcing schemes to say Are announcing schemes to say which party was it that brought Chinese investment into the heart of our nuclear infrastructure? It was the party opposite. In every single
party opposite. In every single decision that is taken, in the energy sector and beyond, if there are questions about national security, they are taken forward in
security, they are taken forward in the usual way.
We invest in making sure all our critical infrastructure is safe and secure from cyber security and other threats. That work continues. It is a top
12:01
Q5. What estimate he has made of the number of additional jobs in clean power industries since July 2024. (904507)
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work continues. It is a top priority. We are building the clean power system to deliver energy
12:01
Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Croydon West, Labour)
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power system to deliver energy security and they are opposing it.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Question five. Since the election, more than £40
billion of investment has been announced in clean energy. This is good jobs with good wages. By the year 2030 they could support
year 2030 they could support hundreds of thousands of new jobs. We will soon publish our clean energy workforce strategy. Which
energy workforce strategy. Which will set out in more detail where and how we will deliver the jobs of
and how we will deliver the jobs of the future. I think this highlights
12:02
Becky Gittins MP (Clwyd East, Labour)
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the risk of voting Conservative or Form as they would put all of these
**** Possible New Speaker ****
jobs in jeopardy. -- Reform. As per her department's Action Plan, by accelerating the transition
Plan, by accelerating the transition We are creating quality jobs in
We are creating quality jobs in areas like mine in North Wales. A major expansion will create 300 new jobs as it prepares to increase its support of the offshore wind farm sector in this area. Does she agree
sector in this area. Does she agree this is no time to hold back but to invest in green energy to tackle climate change, secure the energy supply and provide skilled job for
12:03
Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Croydon West, Labour)
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my constituents?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank my honourable friend for that speech and welcome the jobs
that speech and welcome the jobs related to that question. I welcomed
12:03
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To To the To the port To the port of To the port of Mostyn. To the port of Mostyn. This To the port of Mostyn. This Labour government is driving investment
into our communities, from carbon capture, hydrogen, nuclear, wind and solar. The members opposite have to explain why they want to leave them colder, poorer, in the pockets of
**** Possible New Speaker ****
dictators and with less good jobs. I hear it is your birthday today,
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I hear it is your birthday today, congratulations. The UK government have announced £14 billion for very expensive nuclear energy projects. With crucial green development in
Scotland at risk of getting nothing
12:04
Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Croydon West, Labour)
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Scotland at risk of getting nothing at all. We are awaiting the Minister's approval to create new green jobs in Scotland. When will
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this money be available? To hear the SNP oppose jobs just seems sad for the people of Scotland. We are supporting jobs in
12:04
Andrew Griffith MP (Arundel and South Downs, Conservative)
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Scotland. We are supporting jobs in Scotland up and down the nation. We will decide this week, he does not have long to wait on what the spending review will say about Acorn.
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Shadow Secretary of State. Very many happy returns. We share and welcome new jobs when they are
created but can the Minister also acknowledged the destructive impact of her government policies on existing jobs in oil and gas in the
existing jobs in oil and gas in the North Sea? On Friday evening in my
constituency I met workers terrified for their futures because of the skilled jobs in the supply chain
skilled jobs in the supply chain maintained by oil and gas are not being replaced at the pace needed by renewables due to a slowdown of deployment and a decline in oil and
12:04
Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Croydon West, Labour)
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deployment and a decline in oil and gas activity. Can she admit they
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have got this wrong? Under the previous government we lost 70,000 jobs in the oil and gas
lost 70,000 jobs in the oil and gas industry. We lost more than 1,000 in the ceramics industry. We only produce 30% of the steel we need in this country. The chemicals industry fell by 30%. Their record is
fell by 30%. Their record is shocking. We are putting together a
shocking. We are putting together a plan that will make sure we can transition a lot of people from oil and gas into renewables as the honourable gentleman knows.
The skills are very similar. We are
skills are very similar. We are trying to make that easier with the passport system. We are developing a plan which we will publish in due
12:05
Andrew Bowie MP (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine, Conservative)
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plan which we will publish in due course which will see hundreds of
course which will see hundreds of
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. Why do the members opposite oppose this? No acknowledgement of the people that are losing their jobs today in this country as the direct result of their destructive policies. 3,000
their destructive policies. 3,000 jobs already lost in July 2024. An estimate of 400 job losses every two
estimate of 400 job losses every two 42,000 job losses unless there are significant policy changes. The just transition committee warning 120,000 jobs may go by the year 2030. And no
12:06
Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Croydon West, Labour)
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prospect of a just transition because of the supply chain upping sticks and moving overseas. Will the Minister not acknowledge this is the
wrong course to be taking and at least apologise to the men and women
The The North The North Sea The North Sea will The North Sea will continue The North Sea will continue to The North Sea will continue to play a vital role for years to come. Which is why we are keeping open
existing fields for their lifetime. The truth is this is a declining base.
The honourable gentleman knows it. It is not whether jobs of the future are going to be. They are in
the clean energy transition which we are investing in at pace including
are investing in at pace including big announcements today on nuclear and the Spending Review announcements to come. We are investing in the jobs of the future and he is stuck in the past. and he is stuck in the past.
12:07
Miatta Fahnbulleh MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Peckham, Labour )
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Question six and a very happy birthday to you.
Warm Homes Discount to more than 6 million households. Doubling the number of families that will get
support this winter. This is the difference a Labour government
makes. Supporting those when they
need it while we spring to clean power and get off the energy rollercoaster by 2030.
12:07
Mrs Sureena Brackenridge MP (Wolverhampton North East, Labour)
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Thank you, Mr Speaker. I welcomed
the extension of the Warm Homes
Discount to all households on means-tested benefits from this
winter. Many low income households are currently excluded because of their homes were not classed as high cost. In Wolverhampton North East,
only 18% of households benefited in 2023-24. Can the Minister confirm
the new scheme is simple, fair and focused on those most in need?
12:07
Miatta Fahnbulleh MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Peckham, Labour )
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I thank my honourable friend for raising this important point. I can
confirm we will remove the criteria
which mean support will be going to households that we know need help with their energy bills.
12:08
Nesil Caliskan MP (Barking, Labour)
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Thank you, Mr Speaker and I thank
the Minister for outlining the support available for households
with high energy bills. 6,000 households in my constituency are
benefiting from the discount. But many embarking and Dagenham are dealing with high-energy debt.
Alongside almost 2 million other
households in this country. -- What
are the plans for the relief schemes or a scheme as such to help those who have built up debt under the
previous government so we can support them now and unlike the party opposite we don't abandon those households suffering from the
debt of past governments?
On On a On a support On a support scheme On a support scheme to On a support scheme to deal On a support scheme to deal with On a support scheme to deal with the rising energy debt we saw during the crisis which the party opposite didn't deal with.
It will provide
didn't deal with. It will provide much needed support whether it is through debt write off, or repayment plans, so households cannot afford energy bills and are struggling and will never pay that debt target -- will never pay that debt target -- are provided with support.
12:09
Mr Gregory Campbell MP (East Londonderry, Democratic Unionist Party)
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Thank you and happy birthday. The
government are targeting incomes but will they look at rural homes where there are many thousands of people
living in poorly insulated homes in isolated areas where families are
isolated areas where families are We know there are parts of the country where homes are not up to standard and families are struggling with bills. That is why our plan is
with bills. That is why our plan is so important. We will target homes across the country to make sure we provide a range of things, from insulation to heat pumps, so we can insulation to heat pumps, so we can make sure homes are warmer and cheaper to run.
12:10
Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)
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I wish you a happy birthday and like myself, you do not count the years, you make the years count and
you are doing well at that. Can I welcomed the Minister very much for
welcomed the Minister very much for
her answer to the question? We have
been keen to make sure Northern Ireland does not lose out on this scheme. The Winter Fuel Payment decision was made in the House which we have all welcomed. The Minister
was clearly legislation starts here but in Northern Ireland it will come from here as well.
Will the same
from here as well. Will the same help come to people in Northern help come to people in Northern Ireland who need it just as much?
12:10
Miatta Fahnbulleh MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Peckham, Labour )
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We are working across the country, across all nations to make sure households that need support
are getting it. I will be in Northern Ireland next week and I will talk to the devolved
will talk to the devolved Administration about how we can work together to make sure homes across the country are supported.
12:11
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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Question seven, Mr Speaker.
fuels to clean -- cheap renewables and nuclear power will help to
decouple gas and electricity prices. We will reduce the exposure of consumer bills to volatile international prices and ensure we never again face the cost-of-living crisis of the last government presided over. presided over.
12:11
Edward Morello MP (West Dorset, Liberal Democrat)
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New solar is 11% cheaper than the
lowest cost fossil fuel. Unsure
where is 39% cheaper. The marginal pricing system which ties electricity costs to the market rate of gas is a result of British
consumers getting the fourth highest global energy prices during the cost-of-living crisis. Does the Minister agree that decoupling
electricity prices from the gas market is essential if consumers are
to enjoy lower cost energy?
12:12
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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I thank the honourable gentleman for his expertise in this area which
for his expertise in this area which
Decoupling Decoupling from
Decoupling from what Decoupling from what is Decoupling from what is volatile Decoupling from what is volatile and expensive gas prices is critical. The journey on which we want to deliver clean power will do that. Our objective is to deliver a clean
Our objective is to deliver a clean system where gas is only providing the backup and not setting the prices as it currently does.
We rely on gas too often to set the prices. on gas too often to set the prices. What we are trying to do is remove that and build a clean power system for the future.
12:12
Ms Polly Billington MP (East Thanet, Labour)
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I think we all agree it is important to protect all consumers
from the volatile oil and gas prices my right honourable friend mentioned. While we shift and do that, has the Minister considered the benefits of having an energy
social tariff to protect customers now from those volatile prices and
prepare them for a cleaner and
better reformed market in future?
12:13
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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I always agree with my honourable friend but I think the initial point I probably do not. I'm not sure we
do all agree we should remove the volatility of fossil fuels. Some want us to remain linked to them for longer. We are determined we should remove that from bill so we do not
face the price hikes many families
are struggling with. She is right to point to targeted support. We are looking at a social tariff. It means different things to different
people.
But what we are clear on is bringing down bills for everyone is a top priority and the clean power mission is how we do it.
12:13
Nick Timothy MP (West Suffolk, Conservative)
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Shadow Minister.
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Thank you and happy birthday. The Energy Secretary said there was a principled case for removing green
principled case for removing green taxes from electricity bills with
taxes from electricity bills with the costs met by increases in green taxes on gas bills. This would be a net rise for every household. 80% of
the country using gas. This was not an argument the Energy Secretary
12:14
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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an argument the Energy Secretary made before the election. Can the Minister take the opportunity to rule out any increase in taxes,
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charges or levies on gas bills? What we are trying to do is cut bills as quickly as possible. The
bills as quickly as possible. The honourable gentleman was a core part of a government that failed to do
of a government that failed to do that for years. I am surprised he did not rise to congratulate British energy on investing in solar panels on schools and hospitals. His
12:14
Nick Timothy MP (West Suffolk, Conservative)
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on schools and hospitals. His constituents are benefiting with a hospital and a school and he should welcome that.
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If you want to talk about my constituent, he can talk about the
constituent, he can talk about the betrayal of the application which is being imposed on my constituency by
the Energy Secretary. The public will see that was not a no from the Minister. Families across the
Minister. Families across the country should be very worried. This is becoming a pattern. For weeks I ask ministers about plans aligning
ask ministers about plans aligning with the European carbon price.
For weeks they denied it. Then once the local elections were done, they did
local elections were done, they did it. Increasing electricity bills by stealth for every family and business in the country. Now it is the same for gas bills. When will the Minister be straight with people
12:15
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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the Minister be straight with people and admit this is adding to bills and not cutting them? The House will have heard his
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The House will have heard his failure to welcome solar panels in his constituency but he can deal with his constituents. On the issue
with his constituents. On the issue of ETS, we have on one side welcoming King eight, the National
12:15
Q9. What steps his Department is taking to ensure that the transition to net zero supports rural economies. (904511)
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welcoming King eight, the National Grid, carbon capture and storage, the CBI and on the other side, the
shadow minister and deputy leader of the Reform Party. I think I know who I would take my advice from.
I would take my advice from. I would take my advice from.
12:16
Kerry McCarthy MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Bristol East, Labour)
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The government is committed to making sure everyone can access the benefits of net zero transmission
including rural communities which will play a vital role in creating jobs and infrastructure. That is why we set up the Great British Energy
community fund to support clean energy projects including in constituencies like hers.
12:16
Maya Ellis MP (Ribble Valley, Labour)
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Many happy returns Mr Speaker. Community energy Companies (Strategic Report) (Climate-related Financial Disclosure) Regulations
efficiency is a brilliant project. We could the Minister share what
role she sees local initiatives like the community energy playing in our
overall plans for energy security and affordability? And what steps he is taking to help projects like these to provide more cheap energy
to our rural communities in future?
12:16
Kerry McCarthy MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Bristol East, Labour)
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It sounds like a great project and we are committed to recognising
the role of community energy groups
like this, to ensure communities directly benefit from the energy transition. It was awarded £100,000
for the four Community Energy Fund. GB Energy is continuing this work. Hoping to unleash a wave of
committee projects, that the Secretary of State spoke about
earlier. The government and Ofgem will be working to tackle policy and regulatory barriers to these projects.
12:17
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Thank you Mr Speaker. In the spirit of trying to get as many birthday wishes, from one part of
the greatest county to another, we wish you a very happy birthday.
Rural economies in terms of that to
net zero can be damaged, and over 20 miles of damage will be caused by a
cabling route of the construction stage. What efforts is the Minister
making to assess where the actual infrastructure that is being put in
place does more damage to the rural economy is that it benefits? economy is that it benefits?
12:18
Kerry McCarthy MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Bristol East, Labour)
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It is important that if rural community's are to benefit from the clean energy transition that they
play a role in helping to host the infrastructure as well. When the Great British Energy Bill went
through Parliament there was much discussion about how to make sure that communities that host the infrastructure don't lose out. I
send details of how he and his send details of how he and his communities can engage.
12:18
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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Question 10.
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Mr Speaker, in 2025/26 we will
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Mr Speaker, in 2025/26 we will upgrade 300,000 homes, more than
12:18
Lisa Smart MP (Hazel Grove, Liberal Democrat)
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upgrade 300,000 homes, more than setup more details of the Warm Homes Plan to help 5 million homes there will be more details tomorrow. My Liberal Democrat predecessor,
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My Liberal Democrat predecessor, pushed for the zero carbon homes
pushed for the zero carbon homes program during his time in the coalition government, having bought
coalition government, having bought 2004. Sadly the standards were
estimated that had the standards been reached in 2016, households
were paid £5 billion less in energy bills as a result of living in better insulated and more energy- efficient homes. The secular state
efficient homes. The secular state mentioned earlier the Future Homes Standard which bring welcome steps like solar panels, but when will the
12:19
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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like solar panels, but when will the Government go further to equate zero
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carbon with a fabric first approach? She raises an important question about which the failure to have zero
about which the failure to have zero carbon homes and the Future Homes Standard in place means we have
Standard in place means we have built over 1 million homes since then which are now going to have to
then which are now going to have to be retrofitted which makes no financial sense. It is right to put these in as standard from the get
12:19
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these in as standard from the get go. We have worked a lot with MHCLG and housebuilders to make sure this can be done in a way that make sure
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we can build. Could I ask the Secretary of State what he will do to make it
State what he will do to make it more affordable to households to make their homes energy efficient. The current problem is those who can
The current problem is those who can afford to outlay some funding then
12:20
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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afford to outlay some funding then get a taxpayer funded subsidy. For those who can't actually put in the first few thousand they don't get that support.
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My honourable friend makes an important point. This is something I'm working with the Minister for consumers and others in government
on, as part of the Warm Homes Plan. We have to make sure that those people who can least afford it can
12:20
Pippa Heylings MP (South Cambridgeshire, Liberal Democrat)
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take advantage of the huge opportunities of both insulation,
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solar panels etc. Thank you, and warm wishes for your birthday Mr Speaker, and we
your birthday Mr Speaker, and we talk about warmth, as you would
expect. Over the last decade we have seen so many households living in Dickensian conditions, dark, damp,
Dickensian conditions, dark, damp, cold homes. And having to choose between heating and eating. With the Warm Homes Plan widely recognised as
Warm Homes Plan widely recognised as the most cost-effective way of making homes warmer, healthier, and cheaper to heat, can the Secretary of State confirm how many homes will
of State confirm how many homes will be covered? We believe that the current scale of the plan is truly
12:21
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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current scale of the plan is truly sufficient to meet the challenge we face? I think your noble Ladies after
the rights to be ambitious on these issues. It makes such sense for our
country, we committed the manifesto to upgrade 5 million homes. We intend to be that great. I don't
want to steal the thunder of the Chancellor tomorrow but we will be saying more about it tomorrow.
12:21
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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Number one Mr Speaker.
Rosebank oilfield was deemed unlawful by the courts. The
developer will need to reapply for consent including an assessment for conditions from burning the fuel
produce. We will produce guidance on the frontal assessment of those emissions.
12:21
Rt Hon John McDonnell MP (Hayes and Harlington, Independent)
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The big issues to consider will
be the economic and financial impacts. Can I ask the government,
as it develops its thinking, to consider and to report the house on
another issue. One of the companies that is seeking to benefit, it is
owned by an Israeli oil conglomerate which has been listed recently by
the UN human rights abuses in the
Palestinian occupied territories. I don't believe our government would want to be associated with a company
like that, and many venture funds are now divesting from it.
If we could have report on that specific
issue, how the government's thinking develop on this crucial matter.
12:22
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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I want to be careful about what I say in this particular case on the specific application, for obvious
reasons. We will be publishing guidance very soon on how the end-
use emissions will be assessed. In any developers with any projects you wish to reapply will be able to do
so. Each project will go through regulatory process and will be considered on its individual merits.
12:23
Harriet Cross MP (Gordon and Buchan, Conservative)
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Cabinet Office guidance says that government departments should aim to publish a response to a consultation
within 12 weeks of the consultation closing. The consultation closed on
8 January, 22 weeks ago tomorrow. When will the Department publish the guidance because it is causing
delays to projects in the North seen today?
12:23
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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We published the consultation on
what we will do with the EIA as fast
as we could. It is a complex issue as I'm sure she will understand. We will publish a response and the
process that will now be able to be put into place as soon as possible. Any developers that wish to reapply will be able to do so.
12:23
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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Topicals.
the government has confirmed rooftop solar panels will be standard for all new homes. The first solar on
school roofs projects, the heat pump rule, and Royal assent for Great
British Energy and compensation for 40,000 victims of the prepayment
metre scandal happened under the last government. Quite east of England has unique energy mix from
England has unique energy mix from offshore wind energy in. I welcome the game changing investment. Can I
the game changing investment.
Can I ask specifically about win? The new report says in the East of England
we need more than 6500 extra offshore wind farms. Does the
offshore wind farms. Does the Secretary of State agree that these is central and Kenny outline how we will deliver those skilled jobs? will deliver those skilled jobs?
The East of England is going to be a clean energy powerhouse for the country. My honourable friend raises
an important issue which is about the workforce. We will be publishing the workforce plan soon.
the workforce plan soon.
12:24
Andrew Bowie MP (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine, Conservative)
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Shadow Secretary of State.
2023, the Secretary of State described the Rosebank oilfield as a colossal waste of taxpayers money climate vandalism. This is filigree? climate vandalism. This is filigree?
12:25
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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As with any application there is a process that my department will go
through. We will look at any applications in a fair and objective way.
12:25
Becky Gittins MP (Clwyd East, Labour)
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As I forgot to say earlier, happy birthday from me and my
constituents. I commend the secretary of state forcing the need to reform our energy sector which
currently sees people across North Wales having some of the highest
energy bills in the country. Will he give assurances that any proposed alternative to the current energy
model will not put any one nation or region at a relative disadvantage?
12:25
Pippa Heylings MP (South Cambridgeshire, Liberal Democrat)
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We are developing proposals that will minimise costs and ensure a fair outcome for consumers across the country.
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Liberal Democrats Spokesperson. The future of the North Sea lies
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The future of the North Sea lies in clean energy for despite UK being billed as a wind superpower, we
still import most about wind turbine components are communities around the North Sea are losing jobs. Trade unions and industry are united for
unions and industry are united for
unions and industry are united for calling for money each year to build up domestic renewables any factory. The Chancellor is committed to barely half the money. Will the Minister work with Cabinet
12:26
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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Minister work with Cabinet colleagues to secure the investment needed to realise that jobcreating potential of the green just
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transition? She's right. We are trying to not just build the renewables we need in
just build the renewables we need in the future but bring the good jobs within manufacturing and industry that goes along with it. That is why the Prime Minister announced £200
the Prime Minister announced £200 million of funding to support his supply chain. It will be much more to come. We will be working with
12:26
Paul Davies MP (Colne Valley, Labour)
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to come. We will be working with projects and developers to make sure we bring the jobs here which is why the clean energy bonuses so
important.
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I have received letters from constituents exposing said about
energy outages. Most recently in May it affected 359 customers. What steps is the government taking to
ensure that energy suppliers such as Northern Powergrid invest in the
12:27
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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Northern Powergrid invest in the infrastructure so that communities do not have to worry about these outages? My honourable friend raises an
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My honourable friend raises an important point. U.K.'s energy grid
important point. U.K.'s energy grid is very resilient but we are investing to make sure that remains the case in the decades ahead. Transmission owners and distribution
network operators required by Ofgem
to make sure there is an efficient economic and coordinated system of electricity transmission in the country to make sure that it works. If there are specific issues he If there are specific issues he wants to raise, I'm happy to hear from them.
12:27
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On 21 May the government published its working paper on
community benefits. Whether contributions are unlikely to be made mandatory for a decision is
taken on the huge plant in my constituency. Does the Minister agree that a responsible developer
would offer my constituents a level of benefits in line with those proposals of the government?
12:28
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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Yes. I was grateful to meet you wouldn't want to discuss these
points recently. We encourage all developers to put in place a range of local commuter benefits.Consulting on whether that
should go further. And we would like to see as strong as possible to benefit schemes for all energy
projects right across the country.
12:28
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Happy birthday Mr Speaker. Our
most climate friendly nations require investment to adapt to the
change. But London is facing a debt
crisis was not given that 90% of the debt contract is governed by initial, ensure that lenders are
taking part in debt relief schemes so they can effectively tackle the
climate emergency?
12:28
Kerry McCarthy MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Bristol East, Labour)
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I thank her for her question. This is the subject of ongoing
discussions between our department and particularly between the FCDO as
to how we can make sure that we are not giving with one hand and taking away the other. It is part of the
whole remodelling and how we get international finance to people who need it most.
12:29
Chris Law MP (Dundee Central, Scottish National Party)
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Thank you Mr Speaker, wishing you
happy birthday the Scottish Labour manifesto promised last year to create 69,000 Scottish jobs in the
clean energy industries of the future. The Scottish Labour leader
when asked on Sunday was unable to answer questions. How many jobs have
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been created so far? How is it progressing when will this target be met? He is right we had ambitions to
12:29
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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He is right we had ambitions to create thousands of jobs funded through Great British Energy, something he failed to vote for. He is now against that investment that
12:29
Nesil Caliskan MP (Barking, Labour)
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is now against that investment that
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will come. We had £40 billion of private investment since we came into government with hundreds of jobs and many thousands to come. Thousands of my constituents
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Thousands of my constituents received their energy via a heat network provided by the landlord or
network provided by the landlord or housing association. In many cases they are not eligible for the Warm
they are not eligible for the Warm Homes Discount. I asked the Minister what plans the government might have
12:30
Miatta Fahnbulleh MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Peckham, Labour )
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what plans the government might have to make sure that those constituents received the support that they need as well? We know that we have had
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We know that we have had challenges with heat networks across the country. That is why we are bring forward regulations to make sure that there is a fair price
sure that there is a fair price people with heat networks but technical standards that drive up the quality of them so that people
can have cheaper bills.
12:30
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Thank you Mr Speaker. Standing
Order charges are making energy
bills an -- unaffordable. What steps is the Minister taking to address this?
12:30
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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She raises an important point about the level of standard orders.
The complexity is that, if you redistribute Standing Order charges,
it can have very significant adverse distributional effects. What they
are seeking to do is have low Standing Order charges for some
12:31
Mr Jonathan Brash MP (Hartlepool, Labour)
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My constituency has invested heavily in an operation in ambitious
plans for the net zero operation. But now there is concern the contract may go abroad and threaten
Hartlepool jobs. Does the honourable member have a message for those deciding on this contract?
12:31
Sarah Jones MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Croydon West, Labour)
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The partnership developing the
infrastructure to transport CO2 across Teeside and the Humber will
There is a content target but we would want them to exceed it and I would urge the partnership to use British suppliers. I think the honourable gentleman is meeting with them this week and we urge everyone to do so and we want people to buy British.
12:32
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Research shows customers can save
on energy bills since the inception of this scheme. Does she agree that we can control energy use without
the need for top down bands and it should be a key part of the warm homes plan?
homes plan? homes plan?
12:32
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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This is a really important point and minimum half hour charges will help customers use smart solutions
The evidence is when there was consumer led flexibility, when offered, people took advantage of it.
12:32
Chris Hinchliff MP (North East Hertfordshire, Labour)
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Making community energy the centrepiece of the clean power plan
will foster support for new schemes by putting the public in the driving seat to decide what projects fit
into local landscapes. Will ministers consider implementing the long-standing proposals to enable these schemes to sell electricity
directly to local people?
12:33
Kerry McCarthy MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Bristol East, Labour)
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The government's licensing exemption regimes will allow small- scale suppliers, including community energy groups, to come to market to
support local customers. The Secretary of State has asked Ofgem to explore some of the regulatory
barriers to local supply.
12:33
Rebecca Smith MP (South West Devon, Conservative)
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In 2026 we will have a fully
Oil for some company cars. Is this
not an exciting opportunity to use the research and development from Formula One to support the pursuit
Formula One to support the pursuit of net zero for all motorists? Will of net zero for all motorists? Will he meet with me and representatives from motorsport to discuss this further?
12:33
David Williams MP (Stoke-on-Trent North, Labour)
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Sounds really good. Yes.
of Stoke-on-Trent North, the council has launched a plan to go from black
to green and create an Eco Park and Growth Zone. Will the Secretary of State meet with me in my constituency with my good and
honourable neighbour for Stoke South and partners to see for himself the potential for these communities?
12:34
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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Who want it?
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That also sounds really good. It sounds like an important initiative. I think this Growth Zone idea of my
12:34
Rt Hon Stephen Flynn MP (Aberdeen South, Scottish National Party)
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I think this Growth Zone idea of my honourable friend is great and I
Can I extend an invite for the Secretary of State to come to Aberdeen and meet with the highly skilled energy workforce whose jobs
are being put at risk as a result of his policies?
12:34
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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Let me say to the honourable gentleman, as my honourable friend
absolutely I meet North Sea workers
and companies. What we need to do for them is build the clean energy future so they can transition. That is about carbon capture and storage,
hydrogen, offshore wind and nuclear as well. Something they oppose. This government is going to make it
happen. happen.
12:35
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The Minister knows about nuclear
power in Ayrshire creating well-paid jobs. What does the Minister think about the abject failure of the SNP to bring nuclear to Scotland, even
supporting an independent Scotland?
12:35
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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They have an anti-energy position and should be ashamed of themselves.
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Thank you, Mr Speaker. The last election campaign, the Secretary of State said he would cut energy bills
State said he would cut energy bills
by £300. Could he set out for families and small businesses in Bridgwater a timescale to fulfil that promise?
12:35
Perran Moon MP (Camborne and Redruth, Labour)
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We said by the year 2030 and that
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We said by the year 2030 and that I welcome the government's commitment to nuclear energy to reduce reliance on fossil fuels. But I am concerned less attention has been given to another low carbon
been given to another low carbon cost power source and by some
estimates there are more than 30 GW of geothermal energy potential in
of geothermal energy potential in the Cornish granite area alone. What is the Secretary of State doing to
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is the Secretary of State doing to assess and unlock this potential? My honourable friend is a great champion voice local area and the
champion voice local area and the different energy sources. Geothermal
12:36
Christine Jardine MP (Edinburgh West, Liberal Democrat)
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different energy sources. Geothermal has huge opportunities and I think some has yet to come to market. But we look at all opportunities for how
**** Possible New Speaker ****
we can deliver clean power. Happy birthday, Mr Speaker. I suspect you might be relieved we cannot sing in the chamber. I was
12:36
Miatta Fahnbulleh MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Peckham, Labour )
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cannot sing in the chamber. I was recently approached by a small business owner in my constituency
facing a bill of almost £30,000 for the pain of lockdown when business was closed and getting no sense out
of British Gas as to why she is facing this bill. I am getting no response. Will the Minister meet
response. Will the Minister meet with me to discuss how we can find out what is happening?
12:37
Rachael Maskell MP (York Central, Labour )
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Yes.
Minister meet me to discuss how we can bring this onstream to heat the
2,500 homes and 12,500 businesses and four jobs to be on that site? and four jobs to be on that site?
12:37
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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There are a number of schemes
My authority has a number of projects ongoing. There is huge projects ongoing. There is huge potential and I am happy to meet with her to discuss it.
12:37
Rt Hon Sammy Wilson MP (East Antrim, Democratic Unionist Party)
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Final question.
you do not look a day over 75. While
the Minister is clearly trying to save the world by closing down the oil and gas industry in the United Kingdom, Centrica have signed a £20
billion deal with Norway to supply gas to the United Kingdom. How does
he justify the loss of jobs, British
And putting growth in jeopardy, by And putting growth in jeopardy, by closing down an industry which is still much needed?
12:38
Michael Shanks MP, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)
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The honourable gentleman is wrong. We are not closing down oil and gas. It will play a part for
years to come but there is a transition. There has been for many years. In truth while we want to create the jobs that come next, he turned his face against all the
investment into what those jobs will be which means the transition under his plan will not have a future for the workforce, and we are determined
to do it differently so there are good jobs in the future and a secure energy mix for decades to come.
You to everybody who wish me well for my birthday. I got the best
birthday present and that was the knighthood of Sir Billy Boston, who had to leave Wales to play rugby
had to leave Wales to play rugby league. It was the best present I could have had. Let us come to the statement. Secretary of State. statement. Secretary of State.
12:39
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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Thank you, Mr Speaker. With permission, I would like to make a statement about government plans for
investment in new nuclear power. 16 years ago, in 2009, as Energy Secretary, I delivered a statement
identifying the potential sites for new nuclear. Then I said we need to use all available low carbon
sources. Energy security and climate change goes with nuclear and it will
be good for job. That was true back then. It is even more true today. The Russian invasion of Ukraine, the cost-of-living crisis are followed,
showed how vulnerable we are as a country dependent on fossil fuels.
At the whim of markets controlled by
states and dictators. The imperative measures of security and the demand
of the climate crisis means we must shift as fast as possible to clean homegrown power. The demand for that power as we shift away from gas is
expected to at least double by the year 2050. We need all the low
carbon sources we can get to meet the demands we face. The advice from experts including the Climate Change
Committee is clear. We need new nuclear to meet climate obligations.
So Mr Speaker, this government
supports new nuclear. Because of our belief in the climate crisis as the greatest long-term threat facing our country and the world. Not in spite
of it. Because of the imperative of
energy security and also because of the good skilled jobs nuclear provides. In Britain today there are
too few industries offering the secure well-paid job with strong trade unions the British people
desire and deserve. I have heard time and again from people up and down the country about the importance of nuclear jobs to their
communities.
For all these reasons the government is taking decisive
steps to usher in a new golden age of nuclear for Britain. First, back
in the late 2000's, identification
of Sizewell as a site for new nuclear when I was Energy Secretary, and it has taken 16 years, but I am proud we are today announcing 14.2
billion of public funding for this spending review period to build
Sizewell C. The first government funded and owned nuclear power station in Britain since the 1980s. A strategic partnership with France
and ED F investing with us.
I want
to recognise the contribution my honourable friend for lowest ot and Ipswich made in advocating this
project and also my honourable friend for Warrington North for her advocacy for nuclear. I acknowledge she is not here but the work of the
honourable member for West the nuclear minister. Sizewell C will power the equivalent of 6 million homes with clean homegrown energy
for 60 years. It will be a jobs and growth engine for Britain.
Supporting 10,000 jobs at peak construction. Creating 1,500 apprenticeship.
Well-paid, skilled jobs in East Anglia and communities across the country. I thank GMP,
Unite and Prospect trade unions. Sizewell has already signed £4.2
billion of contracts with 311
companies and will eventually work with 3,500 supplies in all four
nations of the UK. I also say this project is good value for money for the taxpayer because they will be a clear economic return on investment.
And for bill payers because all the due diligence we have done demonstrated the cost of the clean
power supply will be cheaper than
the alternative.
We expect a final investment decision on the project including through the capital race in the private sector to be
completed in the summer and we will set out more detail. A new generation of nuclear power promised for years, delivered by this Labour
government. Small Modular Reactors offer big industrial opportunities for the country. We are determined
to Harnish nuclear expertise to win the global race to lead in the new
Today Rolls-Royce SMR have been selected as the preferred bidder to develop the UK's first SMNRs subject
to final approval and contract signature.
It could create up to 3,000 skilled jobs and power the
equivalent of 3 million homes. In the Spending Review we are committed to the public investment needed to get the project started. With more
than 2.5 ileum pounds of funding for the programs in the spending review
period. It will be delivered by Great British Energy, headquartered
in Warrington. And ally to Great British Energy headquartered in
Aberdeen. Subject to government approval the contract will be signed
this year. Our aim is to deliver one of your's first SMR fleet leading the world in nuclear technologies of
the future.
More good jobs and energy security, funded and made possible by this Labour government. On the immediate horizon, nuclear
A A nuclear A nuclear abundant A nuclear abundant energy A nuclear abundant energy future. A nuclear abundant energy future. We already lead thanks to the pioneering work of the agency but unlike in the past we are determined
to make the investments to stay ahead as a country. Today we are pledging to invest 2.5 billion in fusion including the step programs. It will promise a new prototype in
West Burton.
I congratulate the local authority for advocating this
project and my honourable friend comedy members for Bassetlaw and Rushcliffe for their advocacy as well. It will be the first fusion project of its kind on the site of a
former coal-fired power station. Britain leading the clean energy transition and trail blazing the technologies of the future under a Labour government. Nuclear ambitions do not end here. Moving ahead on
these projects, see potential across
the country. That is why we are looking to provide a route for private sector advanced nuclear
projects.
To be deployed in the UK. We will task Great British Energy nuclear with a new role in assessing
proposals with the national wealth and exploring investment opportunities. My message to the
private sector is if you want to build new nuclear, we are open for business. Following the incredible campaigning work of my honourable
friend for Whitehaven and Carlisle, Penrith and Furness, my department
has asked the authority and Cumberland Council to consider the
potential of privately led clean energy development in Moorside delivering jobs and growth in
Cumbria.
We also know this is an industry that demand long-term thinking. Having announced this
today we will build on our action plan and set out plans for the energy system into the next decade and beyond including ambitions and
next steps on nuclear. The steps I have announced today will start the biggest nuclear building programs
Britain has seen in 50 years. Doubling down on nuclear strength to
take the latest steps forward in our mission to make Britain a clean
energy superpower. When people ask what clean energy and net zero means for the country, this is what it is about.
For too long the country has
not made the crucial energy or other infrastructure investment needed. A shortsighted failure to invest which
the British people have paid the
price for in lower living standards and declining public services. These
announcements signal a change of approach. To invest in the future.
The right choice for energy security. For jobs. For climate and
for our children and grandchildren. The right choice for Britain. Invest
not decline. We have made our choice and I commend the statement to the house.
house.
12:47
Nick Timothy MP (West Suffolk, Conservative)
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Conservative Party's approach
nuclear party and we welcome any decisions backed by investment that increase Britain's nuclear capacity. We cannot deliver cheap reliable and
secure energy without it. The investment announced by the Secretary of State today is
significant, it is a fraction of the
cost of his plan to decarbonise the grid which will ultimately be borne
by consumers. Unlike the intermittent technology that is backed at such cost by the Secretary of State, nuclear provides reliable
baseload power, and generates inertia to stabilise our grateful stop nuclear power plants require
less infrastructure than dispersed generation by wind and solar.
It is
the shape of successive governments over many years that relinquished
its status over many years as a nuclear leader. In 1965 we had more nuclear reactors than the US, USSR,
and the rest of the world put together. Between 1956 and 66, we
built 10 nuclear power stations in a decade. We gave all of that up. The
contribution of nuclear to our power generation peaked in 1944 and has fallen consistently since. Labour
came to power in 1997 Saint it could see no economic case for the building of new nuclear power
stations.
In 2010, the coalition agreement ruled out public
investment in nuclear. It was the last Conservative government that planned the largest revival of nuclear power in 70 years. And it is
thanks to this work that the Secretary of State has been able to make many of the announcements
today. Can you reiterate that the final investment decision has not
yet made? He said in his statement he would announce it in the summer but can you give a precise date when
we will be told the total government investment and private capital raised? This statement is a downgrade of what the last
government put in motion.
Today the energy secretary has announced only one small modular reactor. There is
no clear target to increase nuclear power generation, and no news on
this. The nuclear industry is expecting use of 1/3 GW reactor. The
last government purchased the land and committed to build. But on this
today, the energy secretary said nothing. Can he commit to the plan
inherited for the 3rd Gb plan? Will he recommit to the policy from the
Conservatives of 24 GW of power by 2050? While it is good news that Rolls-Royce will build the small nuclear reactors, this is a
downgrade of what was previously planned.
Can you tell us why he has audited just one technology rather
than two that will set out? Would he commit as other countries have to
going faster? Canada has approved a
plan of four SMRs. As things stand, Britain will not have SMRs connected
to the grid until the 2030s. Contrast between this caution nuclear and the governments rush to decarbonise the entire grid in just
five years while betting the house
on I unreliable and intermittent technologies and shutting down oil
and gas in the North Sea could not be clearer.
We need the energy sector to focus on the possible
knots stake people's bills in the future on ideology.
12:50
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I feel sorry for the gentleman
because it is hard on a day like this to be a member of the opposition. Nevertheless I will try
and answer his questions such as they are. On the question about
final investment decision, he will
maybe be aware we are currently getting private sector capital raised. When it is complete we will
make the investment decision which will take place this summer. It is obviously important. On the
fundamental point he is asking, I do slightly scratch my head because he
sort of says it is a downgrade.
We have announced the largest nuclear
building program in 50 years. It might have looked good in the mirror this morning it does not bear much
resemblance to reality. The question is this, it goes to the point of
making the end my statement, why did they make all these promises nuclear
but failed to deliver them? There is a simple answer, it was not because of a lack of diligence of his
honourable Friend, it was for a simple reason which is they did not
put the money up.
They did not make the investment. This is the point
here, what is the thing that has bedevilled the nuclear program, a failure to invest public money. We are putting £14 billion for Sizewell
C, 2.5 billion for SMR, £2.5 billion
for fusion. That is significant sums
of capital investment. That is what they did not do, that is why they made all these promises, that was I
was the guy that identified Sizewell, and I'm glad to be the guy delivering it. Because we are
willing to make the investment.
So we welcome support such as it is
from him he needs to learn the lessons, public investment not the
client is the answer for Britain.
12:52
Bill Esterson MP (Sefton Central, Labour)
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Can I warmly congratulate my
right honourable friend on delivering on his promise from 2009
in delivering the confirmation of Sizewell C today? Along with a vast
array of commitments to bright nuclear future for this country. The Select Committee looks forward in
our inquiry to the future of nuclear
in the autumn, taking evidence and making recommendations to support the work the Secretary of State has
set out. We visited Sizewell C. I have also visited the nuclear physics department at Liverpool
University.
We learnt in both cases about the jobs that will be
available right across this country. Can the Secretary of State confirm
he sees this as just the start both for gigawatts construction of new
nuclear and also the start of a big expansion in what is still a nascent
technology in SMRs and AMR's for a very very good future for nuclear generation in this country?
12:53
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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My honourable friend speaks very well on this subject and I agree
with what he says, both about the huge jobs potential from new nuclear
and also just on the timelines here, my priority when he came into office
was to get these things over the line because it means so many promises made by the last
government. They made these long- term promises but did not actually
deliver anything towards that 24 GW target. My priority, get on and deliver these things, get them over
the line which we are doing.
Then look, this is what is at the end of my statement, look at the energy
needs going forward and how we meet them. I agree with him that nuclear
as a really essential part to play. Alongside all the other clean energy
technologies, we need all of them, electricity demand will double by 2050.
12:54
Pippa Heylings MP (South Cambridgeshire, Liberal Democrat)
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Liberal Democrats Spokesperson.
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Thank you Mrs figure was not we welcome the government's renewed focus on energy security through nuclear power as part of the energy
nuclear power as part of the energy mix. It is long overdue after years of dither and delay from
of dither and delay from conservatives. It is 16 years since Sizewell C was first announced in 2009. And now, seven prime ministers later, we are finally seeing real
later, we are finally seeing real movement. It is not a success story, it is a warning.
Short-term thinking, poor thinking, exorbitant
thinking, poor thinking, exorbitant costs. I can't help but wonder, can
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I continue? Can I continue? Sit down. I will decide whether
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Sit down. I will decide whether it is out of order, I don't need any help because I wanted to finish
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quickly. I can't help but wonder if the Secretary of State still at his Dispatch Box in 2009 and did he
Dispatch Box in 2009 and did he imagine he would still be back in 2025 announcing the same project was
the we support Tibetans in clean energy, small modular clear reactors
have potential to reduce our dependence on gas from tyrants like Putin. We welcome the government backing this nascent technology and
the choice of Rolls-Royce who are
recognised as the first move across all of Europe.
That is where the focus should be rather than large- scale projects like Sizewell C that
cost billions, take decades, goes
over budget. We have to make sure this does not land consumers with higher energy bills. That risk is
real. The government must be transparent about how it will pay for it because families cannot afford another hit to their household budgets. Liberal Democrats
believe the best way to cut bills, create good jobs and boost energy security 's invest in homegrown renewables, solar, wind, tidal,
geothermal.
Upgrade and National Grid to deliver that clean power. On
that point we look forward to seeing more detail on the long overdue reform of the outdated first come first serve grid connection system
holding back renewable energy projects, and can even delay the
rollout of new SMRs. Today's
rollout of new SMRs. Today's announcement is a step in the right direction was the test's delivery for the cheaper bills, stronger energy security, and a modern energy grid for the future.
12:57
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I think of the commission. She is slightly airbrushed out the role of
the current leader of the Liberal Democrats, I feel bad about mentioning this, the leader of the Liberal Democrats was energy secretary for a period but we will
secretary for a period but we will
sort of Trotsky that out, to use a familial term of origin, we will
Trotsky out of the record. On the other points that she makes, I
sincerely welcome her support for this program.
I think she puts it
very well. I think it is actually, lessons of the people sitting behind her, we'd all of these clean energy
technologies. We should not choose between them. Just because we are in favour of nuclear does not mean we
are against others. And the biggest enthusiasm for all of these
technologies. Let's have all of them to get fossil fuels and meet our
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electricity and energy demands. Happy birthday Mr Speaker. Yet if your birth was only a few months
your birth was only a few months after the opening of Calder Hall, the world's first nuclear, so you
the world's first nuclear, so you share that birthday. On that point,
12:58
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share that birthday. On that point, the Secretary of State has made a major decision which is incredibly
welcome in the West Cumbria. It is
to unlock over 200 acres of land and for clean energy projects including
new nuclear. This is an issue that has been stuck for many years. I welcome the efforts from the Secretary of State and the efforts
he has made and the work is done with the Cumberland nuclear boards
to make it happen. For the secretary of state continue to work with myself and local partners to drive
it through? Secondly, can he say a
bit more about the regulatory task force that has been undertaken at the moment so we can cut through the bureaucracy and build reactors quicker?
12:59
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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You look much younger than the
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cold a whole nuclear power station. And it has been decommissioned.
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And it has been decommissioned. Absolutely right. No
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Absolutely right. No decommissioning of you. Can I really congratulate my honourable friend.
congratulate my honourable friend. He has shown incredible leadership for the people of his constituency
for the people of his constituency in his area on this issue. It has been a pleasure to work with him and colleagues on these questions. He is
colleagues on these questions. He is right about the potential there is.
right about the potential there is. He is right also on the regulatory question. We have some of the highest standards of regulation in
the world but it is always right to look at how we can improve the standards of regulation, avoid changes in regulation in the course
of projects is crucial for success, and that is the work you're getting on with.
13:00
Greg Smith MP (Mid Buckinghamshire, Conservative)
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Happy birthday Mr Speaker. When it where it is due, I totally welcomed the announcement nuclear
today. When I disagree with the
secretary of state is in his persistence to plough ahead with inefficient technologies like solar and associated paraphernalia like
battery storage which trashes the Bucks and wider British countryside.
Nuclear works 24/7. So the works about 10% of the time. We have
greater courage and plough ahead with this much more efficient 24/7 nuclear technology and dropped so low? low?
13:00
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I thank him for part of what he said if not most of it. We just have
a fundamental disagreement, solar and wind offer cheap power for our
country and why would we possibly say no to it? The biggest threat to the countryside is the climate
crisis, and alongside nuclear this
crisis, and alongside nuclear this
13:01
Jo White MP (Bassetlaw, Labour)
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I welcome the statement today. It is about the future vision of future proofing energy security and
production. I particularly welcome
the investment into fusion, including into the step programs at West Burton in North
Nottinghamshire. I thank the work of the ministers to secure this. It is very welcome. But the process has already begun. The tender outcome for the construction and design and technology will be announced later
this year and I champion British companies who are part of the process. I am more excited by the
thousands of jobs and skills with
the new infrastructure which will be developed because of this and work has already started on a skills partnership across the regions, including the East Midlands, Lincolnshire, South Yorkshire and
they are working together with further education colleges and
advanced manufacturing in Rotherham.
Would the Minister agree that it is
investment in left behind Red Wall areas like mine that needs to be the
places where we revise our energy and industry strategy? This is where we start and I want to see more so we start and I want to see more so thank you.
13:02
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I thank my honourable friend for her advocacy. As I was in discussions with the Chancellor I
thought if this didn't go ahead I would have to answer to her and the local authority. She was a motivating force in making sure the
project going ahead. I think her point is crucial. Which is this is about good jobs in areas of the country that really need them. I was talking to an apprentice last night
from Sizewell. She has been there a year. And the experience she has had, the credit she gives to
Sizewell, and you can see her career in front of her and we want that for
lots more people.
13:03
Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)
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Assuming that both the large nuclear power station at Sizewell C
and the small modular reactors both proved to be successful as we trust
they will be, what is the thinking of the government about the
respective roles of each of those two very different types? Which does he think would be the better bet for
the long term for the future of the the long term for the future of the Can he assure us that China will have no part in any of it?
13:03
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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On the latter, yes, I can assure him of that. A typically astute question from the right honourable
gentleman. I think the truth about these technologies is I think both
is the answer. We can't really make
a judgement about this until we see the programs developed. The SMR system offers something that has
eluded nuclear for a long time which is modularity and replication. And
that is the way to bring down costs and speed up delivery. I think there is huge potential for both.
Large- scale gigawatt can also play an
important role.
13:04
Rt Hon Louise Haigh MP (Sheffield Heeley, Labour)
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Can I warmly welcome the SMR announcement? It is great news for Sheffield as Rolls-Royce are already doing significant work at the
research centre. When I met Rolls- Royce recently they said 70% of the bid could be built and produced in Great Britain. How will the
government make sure they account for that and make sure this announcement delivers great jobs and great investment across the UK?
13:04
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I thank my right honourable
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I thank my right honourable
At DAIC. She makes an important point. This is going to be taxpayer
point. This is going to be taxpayer money. We need to make sure that as much as possible it is built in Britain. I make no apologies for
13:05
Kirsty Blackman MP (Aberdeen North, Scottish National Party)
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Britain. I make no apologies for saying that. The answer to her question is as we negotiate terms with Rolls-Royce in the coming months, this will be a key part of
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our discussions. £14 billion splurged on English
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£14 billion splurged on English nuclear power plants comes on top of
nuclear power plants comes on top of English carbon capture and storage while there is nothing for Scotland's Acorn Project. Grangemouth allowed to close with a fiscal regime that is ruining north-east energy jobs. The latest
north-east energy jobs. The latest announcement shows Scotland is not only an afterthought but not a thought at all. If nearly £40
thought at all. If nearly £40 billion can be found for English
13:05
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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billion can be found for English Why is it money is never found for Scotland's carbon capture project? Maybe there is an SNP change in
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Maybe there is an SNP change in position coming. If the honourable lady wants to discuss Scottish nuclear power stations, then absolutely, we are in favour of the
absolutely, we are in favour of the Acorn Project and we will say more about it in the coming weeks. But let me say to her that nuclear
let me say to her that nuclear power, they have really got to think again. They are absolutely sticking
their heads in the sand on this. This is about jobs, investment and clean energy.
They should really
13:06
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think. If I had known it was your
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If I had known it was your birthday I would have brought you a cake down but never mind. My
cake down but never mind. My constituency as you know hosts nuclear power stations and as the
Secretary of State is aware, I am pushing to host new nuclear as well.
Can the Secretary of State tell me how this announcement supports nuclear fusion you -- communities
like mine and across the country?
13:06
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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The honourable lady is absolutely right. The new planning framework we
Opens Opens up Opens up possibilities Opens up possibilities for Opens up possibilities for new nuclear. What I have said today is
that we set out the public money we can at this stage commit to new nuclear. My message to the private sector is, and we are seeing this a
bit in the United States and other countries, a 50% increase in nuclear investment last year globally, if the private sector wants to come to us and build in other places, other
than where you have put public investment, we are open for business and dialogue.
13:07
Rt Hon Sir John Whittingdale MP (Maldon, Conservative)
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It was originally proposed to
build a nuclear power station based on Chinese design in my constituency. While it will not be
Not 1/3 Not 1/3 station Not 1/3 station is Not 1/3 station is still Not 1/3 station is still a possibility or could it be an allocation for an SMR?
13:08
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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Good nuclear sites including Bradwell will always be possibilities. We are not going to
have China building our nuclear power stations. If this is something the honourable gentleman would like to discuss, I would be happy to do so.
13:08
Claire Hughes MP (Bangor Aberconwy, Labour)
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It is clear this Labour
government is putting power behind policies to deliver clean energy and skilled jobs in all parts of the country. Could my right honourable
friend confirm Great British Nuclear will confirm or prioritise my constituency?
13:08
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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Wolverton is a very important site with huge potential for the
country. Great British Nuclear will be looking over the months ahead at
the role that this area can play both in relation to the SMR and
large-scale nuclear. large-scale nuclear.
13:08
Llinos Medi MP (Ynys Môn, Plaid Cymru)
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The Secretary of State's message to the private sector is that if you want to build new nuclear, Britain is open. Companies have told me that
they need decisive leadership from the UK government to be confident to
invest in a new project. I have raised this before in the chamber
and yet today there is no mention so can the Secretary of State make it clear that the UK government does clear that the UK government does support delivering new nuclear in this area?
13:09
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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Yes, we do and again I say to the
honourable lady that we are open to discussions with her and other colleagues.
13:09
Mr Clive Betts MP (Sheffield South East, Labour)
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I will not say happy birthday again. Perhaps we should just
arrange to sing it next time so we don't have to repeat it. I welcome
the statement today but the other welcome news today is the commitment of £416 billion of investment and
Sheffield primarily for defensive nuclear but it provides extra
capacity for civil nuclear as well. -- £416 million. Given the concern
of a link elsewhere, will the system
of a link elsewhere, will the system
be used at Sheffield and build the supply chain stairs so the majority of jobs are actually provided for
of jobs are actually provided for I definitely believe Sheffield Forge Masters has a very important role to play in our civil nuclear system.
play in our civil nuclear system. Some contractual details for Rolls- Royce and the discussions we have with them are for a bit down the road. Forge Masters in my view is central to our plans. central to our plans.
13:10
Claire Young MP (Thornbury and Yate, Liberal Democrat)
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Happy birthday, Mr Speaker. My constituency is one of the sites under consideration for SMRs and
many manufacturers are going for it.
With a site. Given the old nuclear power station has been decommissioned already, the local community would like to know what the future will look like. Is the future will look like. Is Oldbury still in the running and can we have an update on the decision?
13:11
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I thank the honourable lady for
her question. As part of the process
we go to from here, Great British
Energy nuclear will be looking at what is the right place for the SMR fleet and absolutely Oldbury is one of the contenders.
13:11
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I refer the House to my register
And also wish you a happy birthday and what a wonderful day today is proving to be. As a proud Derby MP,
I am delighted to welcome the selection of Rolls-Royce to deliver the first of the UK Small Modular Reactors. We know the local
authority has championed this. Does the Secretary of State agree that this decision is good news for the
country, good news for Derby and that backing homegrown SMRs, what
will the benefit BDUK workers and will the benefit BDUK workers and the region of the East midlands?
13:12
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I thank the honourable gentleman for his advocacy for Derby and
Rolls-Royce. It is important to say that this was a fair and open competition, conducted at arm's
length by ministers. Rolls-Royce came out as the winner. I am very
pleased it came out as the winner. I think the possibilities are huge for
Rolls-Royce. Huge in terms of what it can do for reactors in this country but also the export opportunities and the jobs of the
supply chains. It is not just jobs at the top of the tree if you like but right across the supply chain
create.
13:12
Rt Hon Sir Roger Gale MP (Herne Bay and Sandwich, Conservative)
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While I fear that the development of Sizewell C may prove to be a multibillion pound investment in
yesterday's technology, I do welcome the commitment to reactors as far as
it goes. Which I believe is probably ready for tomorrow. We have to get
from where we are today to there. Why are we going to spend billions
of pounds and accumulate masses of carbon wastage importing carbon
fuels from overseas, instead of
developing our own resources?
13:13
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I think on the nuclear point,
what I say to him is that I think there is real potential Sizewell and
I understand his views on this. Potential to learn from what
happened at Hinckley because it is a replica at Hinckley. And therefore to cut the costs and do it quicker,
the aim is to deliver it cheaper and faster. On the wider picture, I think maybe we do have a different
view. I think we have to get off insecure fossil fuels as quickly as possible.
That is why nuclear and
renewables have a role but of course
the North Sea will be kept open, for their life time, oil and gas will continue to play a role in the energy system.
13:14
Johanna Baxter MP (Paisley and Renfrewshire South, Labour)
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New nuclear has the potential not only to power communities across the
country but create jobs in every constituency, which is why it is extraordinary to hear the SNP representatives arguing against
representatives arguing against
The Secretary of State confirm how many new jobs will be created by this announcement today? What conversations has he had with workplace representatives to make sure they are genuinely good jobs with good terms and conditions?
13:14
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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My honourable friend is right about this in all respects. Sizewell alone will create 10,000 jobs at
peak. 1,500 apprenticeships. There
is a very strong trade union tradition in this industry. A tradition that we intend to uphold.
As for the situation in Scotland, it
beggars belief the SNP would turn their backs on this opportunity.
13:15
Rt Hon David Mundell MP (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale, Conservative)
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Thank you, Mr Speaker. As the
co-chair of the all-party nuclear group and as somebody who has championed the industry for 20 years in this parliament, even when it was
unpopular on both sides, I welcome the announcement. I have seen in my constituency over 60 years the
economic impact the nuclear power station has had. Returning to the
subject of Scotland, obviously we
see the SNP costing Scotland jobs on the nuclear front. Can the Secretary
of State make sure that we can at of State make sure that we can at
13:15
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I congratulate him for his long- standing advocacy on this issue
including when it was not popular. I think he makes a very good point. We
obviously have to have a change of government in Scotland for a Labour
Party that will actually advocate and is going to advocate for
nuclear. But absolutely, the supply chain in all four nations of the UK can play a crucial role in what we
are announcing today. are announcing today.
13:16
Adam Thompson MP (Erewash, Labour)
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Are very happy birthday to you Mr Speaker. Can I thank the Secretary of State for today's announcement
which represents a massive boost for jobs my constituents in Erewash, and a huge vote of confidence for Rolls-Royce just down the road in
Derby. How does the Secretary of State foresee this announcement affecting the availability of apprenticeships for kids leaving
local schools? local schools?
13:16
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I think my honourable Friend raises such an important point. There is a really good tradition of
apprenticeships in nuclear. I have seen it at Hinkley Point C. We will see it at Sizewell. I will make sure
that we see it in the SMR program as well. These are fantastic
opportunities for young people, and opportunities we intend to make happen. happen.
13:17
Adrian Ramsay MP (Waveney Valley, Green Party)
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Can the Secretary of State tell House a bit more about the regulated
asset base funding model for Sizewell C? In particular, could he assure the public that the
construction phase of Sizewell C won't be funded by increases to
peoples bills, even that it will be
well over a decade, have a look at Hinkley point nearer to two decades, before it is producing any new electricity?
13:17
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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He will know the system that was passed through this house involved
the role of Bill payers. We believe this is the right system and the thing that will cut the cost to
Hinkley Point C. I do say to the honourable gentleman, he appears to
oppose many different forms of clean power. He opposes transition on
infrastructure for onshore wind and solar, he opposes solar farms, the opposes CCS, I guess he opposes
opposes CCS, I guess he opposes
nuclear.
I have and all of the above position on clean energy, he seems to have none of the above position.
13:18
Jonathan Hinder MP (Pendle and Clitheroe, Labour)
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I'm delighted Rolls-Royce has
been selected to deliver SMRs in the
UK. It really is time for us to stop delaying the new fleet of nuclear power stations more broadly. The Secretary of State will remember
that he came to my constituency on a Rolls-Royce site before the
election, and they were supporting
400 jobs where pre-pandemic it was 900. It is a opportunity for us to create good skilled jobs all over
the country. Will he assure me that the government, as that customer of
Rolls-Royce, will demand that those
jobs are going to places like Barnsley, all over the UK, and we stop the offshoring of manufacturing? manufacturing?
13:19
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I was impressed by what I saw at
Brunswick. I had to maintain a position of neutrality when I became Secretary of State on the
competition as to who won it, but I'm obviously incredibly pleased that Rolls-Royce has been the fair and square competition winner. He
makes a good point about making sure that jobs go to Brunswick, and I'm
sure it is something Rolls-Royce want to do. want to do.
13:19
Rt Hon Sir Gavin Williamson MP (Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge, Conservative)
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An example of a great British
company is one that has been supplying the electricity generation industry in this country for many
decades. How can businesses such as this really link in at the very early stages with the government as
it starts to plan how this investment will be made so we can get the best for British jobs? get the best for British jobs?
13:20
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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Let me thank the right honourable gentleman voice question. I think it
raises an important issue. As we embark on this Golden Age for nuclear, we need to make sure that
the supply chain really benefits. Perhaps he could finish my department with details of the company, and we can think about companies like that and how they benefit.
13:20
Mrs Elsie Blundell MP (Heywood and Middleton North, Labour)
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I welcome today's announcement. I've been speaking to people from
across my constituency, cleaners, hospitality workers and others who desperately need the cost of bills
to come down. How will the steps announced today counter the impact
of uncertainty in markets and help stop people from being out of pocket?
13:20
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I think she raises an important
point. This is about planning for the long-term to get off this rollercoaster of fossil fuelled
which are insecure. We saw what happened when Russia invaded
Ukraine. Just to give one fact, if the Sizewell C plant had been up and
running at the time of that crisis, Bill payers would have saved £4
million in their bills in one year
alone in 2022/23. This is the security that new nuclear can give us.
13:21
Tom Gordon MP (Harrogate and Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat)
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Happy birthday Mr Speaker. I
would like to ask the Secretary of State what guarantees are in place to make sure that these jobs will go
to local people rather than overseas contractors? What investment in training and skills will be provided
to make sure benefits go to local people on the ground?
13:21
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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Your judgement raises an
important point that members on both sides of the House have raised. It is absolutely part of what we are
going to do to make sure the jobs come to the UK. Our commitments
around 70% of the supply chain
spending in the UK. It is something where my department will ensure there is accountability of the
companies you are going to be benefiting from public money to make sure that we seek maximum benefits
in the UK and across the country.
13:22
Gregor Poynton MP (Livingston, Labour)
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I warmly welcome the Secretary of State statement today. Unfortunately
is not for Scotland. Due to the
SNP's Scottish Government outdated backward and bizarre opposition to
nuclear energy, they are turning down billions of pounds of investment and highly skilled jobs. Does he agree with me this is yet
another way that the SNP Scottish Government have lost their way? Government have lost their way?
13:22
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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He is so right about this. People in Scotland will be looking at these announcements and saying, why isn't it asked the benefiting? Why are we
not even in the race? We have lots of people in this house, lots of
members saying we want my area to benefits, and we have a Scottish
Government and SNP that says we want no part of it. That makes no sense. no part of it. That makes no sense.
13:23
Rt Hon Sammy Wilson MP (East Antrim, Democratic Unionist Party)
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Can I also welcome, it is very
unusual for me to welcome anything from the Secretary of State but I welcome this announcement. Nuclear
is an important element in providing baseload for electricity across the
United Kingdom. While the Minister has mentioned delivery five times, this is an announcement not of
delivery and there is a period when we will still need the baseload
provided. Can he tell us how we intend to ensure that the baseload is provided in that period? What
discussions he had with the Minister to see the suitability of SMRs with
the supply of Northern Ireland? the supply of Northern Ireland?
13:23
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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The honourable gentleman and I have been discussing these issues for about 17 years I think since he was the spokesperson. Agreement is
rare between us. So I really welcome the agreement. What I would say to
him is, these are the steps we have got to go through to deliver, and
they are incredibly important. On the point about Mr in Northern Ireland, the Energy Minister will be
meeting next week, to reassure him
on that point, and we believe this can benefit all four nations of the
United Kingdom.
That is 100% our intention to make that happen.
13:24
Andy McDonald MP (Middlesbrough and Thornaby East, Labour)
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I welcome the government's
commitment to securing our future energy supply, and by doing so
taking control of energy, and family finances and tackling the climate crisis. In addition I'm keen to
learn the department's assessment of new technological develop and to
reduce energy waste, and developing underground thermal energy storage solutions. I'm aware of
organisations in that sector who want to share opportunities with the government for top so I ask the
Secretary of State, what is his assessment of the role of thermal storage solutions in reducing energy
loss, avoiding curtailment fees, and maximising the benefit from energy
generated?
13:25
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I know my other friend and thank
it was question, has been strongly advocating on these issues in terms of his constituency and the exciting
possibilities that there are. My
suggestion is that a minister for even my department meet with him in the company concerned about the potential there could be.
13:25
Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)
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The announcement today is good news as far as it goes. But the
baseload is that it will provide will be on tap for many many years to come. How does he propose to fill
that gap? Will he now look again at the UK power project which needs a
decision soon and could be delivering electrons by the turn of the decade. Does the announcement
today affect the likely Contract for
Difference prices eventually reached with the proposed operator?
13:26
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I can say that we are seriously
looking at the project and he is a tireless advocate for it and I respect him for that. My answer on
the baseload question is that we need a combination of things to meet
the power that we need. There are
all kinds of different ways in which we can do that. I would also say that part of the job that I and we
are undertaking is to make sure we can get Hinkley Point C undertaken
as quickly as possible because that can also make an important contribution.
On the last point he makes, the decisions today don't
affect decisions in other areas they are separate. are separate.
13:26
Graham Stringer MP (Blackley and Middleton South, Labour)
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Can I welcome the statement
today, which is moving towards an energy mix which is less weather
dependent. I also welcome the announcement of investment to
nuclear fusion. There is one constant about nuclear fusion which
is, from the original ideas in the 1950s, it has always been 50 years
in the future. The International Energy Agency are still predicting
that the earliest energy fusion will be providing energy onto a grid in
the second half of the century.
Does the Secretary of State agree with that, and if not why not?
13:27
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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He is definitely right about the
old saying about nuclear fusion. I think maybe it is coming a bit closer, they have been really important breakthroughs including in
important breakthroughs including in
the UK. And we are determined to invest in them. I don't thing anyone can say for certain when it will
arrive, but I think the prototype fusion project is a really exciting
step on that journey.
13:28
Rt Hon Liz Saville Roberts MP (Dwyfor Meirionnydd, Plaid Cymru)
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Happy birth. The nuclear
community is very disappointed not
to be on the SMR site we will continue to push for that. Security of supply it is critical to avoid
the ethical nightmare of rushing
diagnosis for treatments. A Welsh project will see North Wales become the home of the public sector
national voluntary to produce that radio isotypes. What is the Department doing to help the Welsh
Government to realise the project?
13:28
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I think I need to check the
answer. I don't want to give a flippant answer to the honourable ladies incredibly serious question, so let me write to her to give her a proper answer. proper answer.
13:29
Lillian Jones MP (Kilmarnock and Loudoun, Labour)
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Thank you and happy birthday Mr
Speaker. Scotland won't benefit due to the SNP's ideal logical block.
Looking billions of investment and thousands of well-paid secure Scottish jobs and blocking across our Scottish communities. Does my
our Scottish communities. Does my
right honourable friend agree that Scotland needs a new political direction in any way to get that is at the ballot box next year?
13:29
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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My honourable friend puts it very well. I noticed the SNP have sort of disappeared. They are a bit
embarrassed probably. She's actively right about this. In a sense it
comes into sharp focus today because we can announce a Golden Age of nuclear with our investments, but
not in Scotland. Because of the positions of the SNP government. It makes no sense. makes no sense.
13:29
Dr Caroline Johnson MP (Sleaford and North Hykeham, Conservative)
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Thank you Mr Speaker and happy birthday. Energy security is very
important and I welcome today's investment in the clear. A small
modular reactor can power 1 million homes using two small bits of land. Yet you need 2000 acres of good
quality farmland with solar on it to produce the energy of 50,000 homes.
Will the right honourable gentleman consider food security as important
as energy security for the use of good quality land for solar? good quality land for solar?
13:30
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I should say that we are operating under the planning guidance of the previous government,
guidance of the previous government,
and just on her wider point, we need
all of these clean energy resources at our disposal. We need solar, we need onshore wind, offshore wind
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power need nuclear. I am for all of the above. I want to inform the house that government will be bringing a
government will be bringing a statement later today on an update
13:31
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statement later today on an update Today's announcement about the
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Today's announcement about the £2.5 billion investment in the new reactor project is fantastic news for the country because it will bring bills down and create jobs.
bring bills down and create jobs. It's amazing for my constituency,
It's amazing for my constituency, too. As the government moves forward
too. As the government moves forward with this investment and delivery, can I ask us he approaches the
can I ask us he approaches the contractual aspects to make sure he can build on things like the skills
13:31
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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can build on things like the skills Academy jobs already there to build for the wider region and the country
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as a whole? I think derby should be
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I think derby should be incredibly proud of Rolls-Royce winning the competition and excited about the possibilities for young
about the possibilities for young people in derby and in the wider
people in derby and in the wider region. We must make sure that we deliver on this and that is what we
13:32
Rt Hon Jeremy Corbyn MP (Islington North, Independent)
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deliver on this and that is what we intend to do.
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The honourable member asks some reasonable and pertinent questions
reasonable and pertinent questions about the cost of the project. As they are a PFI element involved?
they are a PFI element involved? What will be the cost? What will be the cost of the nuclear waste
the cost of the nuclear waste disposal? And who will pay in 60 years for the decommissioning cost? The nuclear industry does not have a great record on the price of the
13:32
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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great record on the price of the decommissioning cost or the cost of dealing with the waste.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Perfectly legitimate questions. I'm glad to say in the financing
I'm glad to say in the financing model that has been produced, decommissioning is and at the beginning as part of the overall
costs that have been let out. On the question about total costs, we will lay them out in the final investment
and similarly when it comes to the cost to build parents, all I can say
cost to build parents, all I can say is someone who cares about the crisis with climate is all the
evidence we have is that this is the least cost alternative compared to the alternative with carbon
13:33
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the alternative with carbon technology and so is a crucial part of the energy mix. I congratulate the Secretary of
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I congratulate the Secretary of State and the government on this incredibly important investment
plan. I welcome the investment
infusion technology as well as
making the final outcome closer. Can we ensure investment is felt across
all communities? Will we make sure
all aspects of the nuclear jigsaw receive support including the
disposal of nuclear waste products
disposal of nuclear waste products and the reuse of waste products that are currently affecting future generations of reactors? generations of reactors?
13:34
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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It is an important point and
across the life-cycle of nuclear, there are important opportunities and across the supply chain, there are further opportunities and it is a constant theme of the questions
that we have had which is the importance of realising potential and that is what we tend to do. and that is what we tend to do.
13:34
Blake Stephenson MP (Mid Bedfordshire, Conservative)
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Global tech giants like Microsoft
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Global tech giants like Microsoft
and Amazon have trust in SMRs and I believe it should be the future of nuclear in the country. A couple of questions, in this announcement, a
questions, in this announcement, a new public company will be set up,
new public company will be set up, GB Energy Nuclear. Why is it
GB Energy Nuclear. Why is it required, how much will it cost, and why is it based in Warrington?
Nothing against Warrington but can be Secretary of State outlined when
13:35
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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be Secretary of State outlined when we can expect meaningful deployment in the UK? Speak on the first
question, this is a development from
Great British Nuclear and Great
British Energy Nuclear is part of this that is currently based in
Warrington. On deployment, the truth is that we are expecting final
investments in the next few years
and deployment in the early to mid 2030s, which I think is the fairest way to put it. I agree the potential
and I agree, which is why I'm open to the role of the private sector,
that there may be private sector parties who wants to build sooner
and that would be great.
13:36
Luke Murphy MP (Basingstoke, Labour)
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I refer to my register of
interests and can I welcome the investment in energy security and jobs? I know from my own visit with
jobs? I know from my own visit with
the energy security Select Committee that the jobs are well paid, high skilled, and good jobs. Does the
Secretary of State agree this is in part because of the strong relationship between business, trade
unions, the government in the sector and that there is much to be learned from this in other parts of the sector and beyond?
13:36
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I think he characteristically puts it incredibly well and I think
the industry offers as a model of good employee relations and a strong
role for trade unions, ensuring both
safety and guaranteeing good terms and conditions for workers and I think it is a lesson for other parts
think it is a lesson for other parts of the renewables industry.
13:37
Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)
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New jobs are very welcome and
what we see is that many skilled
jobs are going to young people from beyond the area and given the social mobility challenges in East Anglia
and west Somerset, can the Minister
comment on the investment in colleges to encourage applications for new jobs and apprenticeships from the local area? from the local area?
13:37
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I think the honourable gentleman puts it incredibly well and that was
my impression and it is saying the impact it has on the local economy.
We want to do the same at Sizewell as well and there are plans for a
local college modelling some of the stuff that was done at Hinkley point
C and I think he's right about the massive opportunities which we must explore.
13:38
Mark Sewards MP (Leeds South West and Morley, Labour)
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Sizewell was an important word to
me as a child as was Hunterston,
Dounreay, Hinkley, because there are places where my father worked. Kindly assure me this will be part of bringing back those fantastic,
safe jobs which are so important for the nuclear industry?
13:38
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I'm glad my honourable friend asked the question and talked about
his heritage and family history on
this. I think it will reflect something real which is that there has been a great tradition of the nuclear industry in the country and it went through an extended pickup
and it is fair to say it is really
important that we are bringing back because these are good, long-term and secure jobs, jobs that people
take real pride in. We should absolutely embrace that.
absolutely embrace that.
13:39
James Naish MP (Rushcliffe, Labour)
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As the chair of the APPG for Future Energy and the East Midlands
a huge thank you on behalf of
constituents in my region for the major announcements today, Rolls- Royce willing the contract and the
£2.5 billion for fusion energy. Does the Secretary of State agree that these large infrastructure projects
open huge apprenticeship opportunities for my region? Will he
commit to meeting me to discuss how the power station can play its role? the power station can play its role?
13:39
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I congratulate my honourable
friend on his 2-hatted advocacy and
friend on his 2-hatted advocacy and
13:40
Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)
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it's an important point to make. The potential of the fusion plant is huge and the wider potential of nuclear is huge and I look forward to further discussions about this.
to further discussions about this. Convertible, I thank the Secretary of State for the statement and for the clear positivity in every word
that he put forward which were very welcome and it is good to hear the news and how we can all benefit across this nation. I welcome the news that energy will be secured for
news that energy will be secured for the UK and for the job security and the many contracts available.
Can
the many contracts available. Can the Secretary of State confirm companies from the UK will have
companies from the UK will have secure contracts? How can the
secure contracts? How can the government ensure each area of the UK and Northern Ireland can benefit from this massive investment?
13:40
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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from this massive investment? It is a really important thing
that they are is a 4-Nations approach to the supply contracts and
I am very keen to ensure that. There will be thousands of contracts in the supply chain and huge
opportunities for Northern Ireland and I am determined that we deliver them.
13:41
Paul Waugh MP (Rochdale, Labour )
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The Atom Valley Development Zone
of Andy Burnham will be based in
-- named after the research into splitting the atom. Just my honourable friend agree that the investment in nuclear and nuclear
fusion will rely on precisely the type of cutting and research that will be done in Rochdale?
13:41
Rt Hon Ed Miliband MP, The Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero (Doncaster North, Labour)
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I congratulate my honourable
friend the question and the new centre which is appropriately named and we should celebrate history on
these issues and the way to order history is by building the future
for nuclear and that is what today is all about, Madam Deputy Speaker.
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That is the end of the statement. I will give the front benches a few minutes to switch over. Point of order, Paul Holmes.
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order, Paul Holmes. I have given advance notice of
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I have given advance notice of this point of order and I would like to raise an issue of process following proceedings last night in
following proceedings last night in relation to the new clause 82 on the Planning and Infrastructure Bill which was not put for a separate
which was not put for a separate decision last night. Can I firstly
decision last night. Can I firstly say clearly that this is not a
criticism nor a challenge of the decision by the deputy chair of the
chair, who I have respect for.
It is
qualification on the decision made last night and, with your indulgence, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to ask the following, the new clause was accepted for separate decision yesterday and signed by
over 70 MPs. The member in charge had indicated he would not push this
to avoid outside the chamber before the conclusion of the proceedings.
Bass push this to a vote. The advice was given that the discretion, that
13:44
Points of Order
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was given that the discretion, that
, despite it being allocated for separate decisions through the usual channels, thus, when the closure proceedings came, there was no
proceedings came, there was no mention of the new clause 82 by precedent in the House says another
member can push the new clause to avoid but the option was not given to a member who wished to do so. --
13:44
Points of Order Paul Holmes MP (Hamble Valley, Conservative)
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to a member who wished to do so. -- To a vote. Asking -- at the
To a vote. Asking -- at the conclusion of proceedings, of the time for debate under the terms of the program have been exhausted,
the program have been exhausted, standing order number 83 is engaged to bring proceedings to a close and
the Speaker must put forth with the following question but no others,
any question proposed by the chair,
any question necessary to bring it to a question so propose, the question any amendment, new clause
or new schedule selected by the Speaker, are finally any other question necessary for the disposal
of business to be concluded.
One other example comes in respect of
any motion or any amendment to a
any motion or any amendment to a
bill, the speaker should have the ability to propose new clauses and schedules. The powers conferred on
the Speaker should not be exercised by the deputy speaker, saved during consideration of the estimates. I
have a concern that this has set precedent where members across the
House who have signed, over 70 have signed, they did not have the chance
to put it to a question last night at the member in charge spoke to the
new clause and outlined the measures that the new clause would bring into
the substantive legislation.
I am worried that members who have sent amendments from all parties across the House will not have the
opportunity to put those new clauses
and amendments to a vote because the chair to say they have the discretion to eradicate the question from being put in the proceedings of the House. I would be grateful for
clarification and perhaps you could offer a meeting with the principal clerks so I can discuss my concerns.
13:45
Ms Nusrat Ghani MP (Sussex Weald, Conservative)
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I thank the honourable member for
the question and I can assure him that nothing irregular or unusual to place last night. It is usual for
the Speaker to give notice of amendments and new clauses for separate decision. It is not infrequent for the chair to make
changes based on new information that comes to light during the course of the debate, particularly
when dealing secretary of an amendment or new clause indicates
they do not wish to move it.
On the amendment on a new clause which has been moved by a member needs to be
withdrawn and they leave the House before it is put. This only applies
to elite amendment or clause and any group. In this case, the member had
not been called to move the amendments that there was nothing to with. It is appropriate and normal for the chair to decide not to call
a new clause or amendment for a separate decision when the secretary has indicated to do not wish to move and ideally this should have been
made in the course of the bed by the member in charge.
The honourable member knows very well how to touch
base at the start in the
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We now move on to Presentation of Bills, British Indian Ocean
Territory.
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Territory. British Indian Ocean Territory, -- British Indian Ocean Territory sovereignist and constitutional arrangements bill. Second Reading what day?
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Second Reading what day? Friday 13th of June, 2025.
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Friday 13th of June, 2025. We now move onto the Ten Minute Rule
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Motion. Freedom of Expression Bill. -- Freedom of expression. I beg to move that lead be given
to bring in a Bill to make provision about freedom of expression in relation to religion or belief systems and for connected purposes.
I do not believe that Muhammad was a
prophet sent by God, I do not accept the instructions he said he received from the Archangel Gabriel. I do not
accept that the sun or body of Islamic laws has any relevance to
me.
I respect the religious beliefs of others but I do not mind if Mohammed is satirised, criticised or
not. I'm not a Muslim and I choose
not to live by the moral code set out by Islam. I am a Christian and I should make clear that I do not think anybody should be prosecuted
for satirising, criticising or mocking Jesus either. England and Wales abolished blasphemy laws in
2008 and Scotland abolished them in
2021. But even then, those laws have not been used for decades.
The last blasphemy trial took place in 1977.
And the state has not brought a public prosecution for blasphemy in more than a century. But now
blasphemy laws are back. I have been advised not to refer to two high
profile cases of people being arrested, charged or prosecuted for causing harassment, alarm or distress to Muslims or even
nonsensical, to Islam itself. So while I will keep my speech to the conceptual, I invite the House to
recall there are real examples of what I raise in the criminal justice
system right now.
The issue is the way sections 4 and five of the Public Order Act 1986 are being
used. Far beyond the intent of Parliament, to police what we can
and cannot say about Islam. I will come to the details of sections 4 and five but first I want to say
something about the intent of the Public Order Act stop the long title of the act makes clear its purpose
was to abolish some common law and statutory offences to make way for new offences relating to public order.
Nowhere in the second reading
debate from 1986 did anybody raise the need to protect religions or followers of religions from offence. The context of the act was football
hooliganism and the riots in Brixton
and Broadwater farm. It is true that part three of the act created new offences relating to racial hatred
and this was amended to include religious hatred by the racial and religious hatred act 2006. But in
part three, in section 20 9J, to which we will return, the Public Order Act says nothing in this part
should be read or given effect in a way which prohibits or restricts discussion, criticism or expressions
of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or
practices of their adherents.
We can therefore be confident that the Public Order Act, even as amended,
was never intended to become a blasphemy law. This obvious conclusion is reinforced by the fact that the controversies regarding
blasphemy and Islamic this country began two years after its introduction, in 1988, with the publication of the say tannic
verses. Since that year and the fatwa against Salman Rushdie, a public conversation about Islam has
been limited to a mixture of self- censorship and more official
restrictions, such as the definition of Islamophobia accepted by many public bodies.
These restriction are
motivated not by a desire to avoid offence, consider the consideration -- considered the criticism and
mockery of other religions, but the offence of others. Some say it is
not the same as a blasphemy law and can be legitimate to prosecute somebody for saying something that
Michael's wider disorder. Perhaps in some circumstances this may be so but we should interrogate this line
of thinking. First, the Crown Prosecution Service gave the game away by charging one man with
causing distress to the religious institution of Islam, which is pretty much the dictionary
definition of blasphemy.
The second, twisting the law to make a protester
responsible for the violent reaction of those who will not tolerate the opinions of others is wrong. It
destroys our freedom of speech. Some argue that while this may be regrettable, it is now an
unavoidable consequence of the multicultural society in which we live today. By this logic, the state
13:52
Presentation of bill
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must police the boundaries between different ethnic and religious groups to avoid disorder. But we should be clear that this means
should be clear that this means state intrusion and a lot of liberty on some occasions and mob rule on
on some occasions and mob rule on others. This is the very essence of the two tier policing round we have
the two tier policing round we have seen recently. Rough justice for those belonging to identity groups that play by the rules and freedom
that play by the rules and freedom from justice for those belonging to groups willing to take to the streets and threatened violence.
This is the logic of using the
This is the logic of using the Public Order Act to prohibit us from saying what we like about a religion. A person may be found
guilty because of the violent reaction of those offended by their
reaction of those offended by their actions. From Sir Salman Rushdie to the teacher still in hiding with his
the teacher still in hiding with his family, the threat of violence is what lies behind these new blasphemy laws. Perhaps we should not be surprised.
There are at least 40
13:53
Nick Timothy MP (West Suffolk, Conservative)
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Muslim majority countries where the penalty for blasphemy or apostasy is
death and we have significant diaspora populations many of them. With the number of people coming
With the number of people coming here... With the number of people here who came from these countries
here who came from these countries growing and the increasing assertiveness of organised political Islam in Britain, this is a problem that seems likely to only get more
that seems likely to only get more severe. But the answer is not to surrender to the mob, it is to hold
surrender to the mob, it is to hold the line and that is why today I bring forward this Bill.
I said
earlier that section 20 9J of the Public Order Act protects criticism, insult and even abuse of religions
insult and even abuse of religions and the beliefs or practices of
their adherents. -- 29J. This only applies to part 3D legislation because part three relate --
because part three relate --
introduced amendments on hatred and religious hatred. No one thought sections 4 and five, which in part one of the act make it an offence to
cause harassment, alarm or distress by using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour would be used to criminalise the expression of opinion about
religious belief.
This Bill therefore extends the scope of 29J to the whole of the Public Order Act, preventing the use of sections
4 and five as a de facto blasphemy law. And apply section 29 also to section 127 of the Communications
Act 2003 and section 1 of the malicious Communications Act 1988.
In doing so, this bill would restore free speech as it applies to religion in England and Wales. It
will stop the police prosecutors and judges creating a blasphemy law for legislation that was never passed
for that purpose.
It would send a stronger's powerful message from this place, where political power
legitimately and democratically resides, that this country will not
tolerate intimidation, violence or censorship. That there will be no
special treatment here for Islam and there will be no surrender to the thugs who want to impose their
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beliefs and culture on the rest of us. The question is that the
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The question is that the honourable... The question is that the honourable member have leave to bring in the Bill. As many as are of
bring in the Bill. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye". Of the contrary, "No". The Ayes have it. Who will prepare and bring in the
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Bill? John Cooper, Luke Evans, Richard
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John Cooper, Luke Evans, Richard Holden, Robert Jenrick, Rupert Lowe, Rebecca Paul, Jack rancour, Alec
Shelbrooke, Bradley Thomas, Tom
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Many Many boughs, Many boughs, many Many boughs, many boughs, Many boughs, many boughs, bonus
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one. Freedom of Expression (Religion
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or Belief System) Bill. Second Reading what day?
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11 July.
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11 July. The clerk will now proceed to read the orders of the day. Data (Use and Access) Bill, Lord,
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consideration of Lords message. I can inform the House that nothing in the Lords message engages comments Financial Privilege. I
comments Financial Privilege. I called the Minister to move the motion to insist on this agreement with Lords Amendment for 9F and to propose amendments A to E. I caught the Minister.
the Minister.
13:57
Legislation: Data (Use and Access) Bill [Lords]: Consideration of Lords Message
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I beg to move as you just said. I fear it is an inevitable aspect of
ping-pong that there is a degree of repetitiveness about our proceedings. Those shadow minister said last week that it reminded him
13:58
Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)
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of the film Groundhog Day. That of course refers to the Pennsylvania
course refers to the Pennsylvania Dutch superstition, the different
groundhog emerges from its borough on the borough on 2 February, it
on the borough on 2 February, it sees its shadow it will retreat
sees its shadow it will retreat which then and winter will go on for six more weeks. I can see my shadow and I just hope that ping-pong is not going to continue for another
not going to continue for another six weeks.
Last week, I covered some misconceptions about the contents of this Bill and what we are trying to achieve separately in relation to AI
achieve separately in relation to AI and copyright. I fear that some of these misconceptions still persist. The Guardian, for instance, carried
The Guardian, for instance, carried the following sentence this weekend,
the following sentence this weekend, the AI Bill, which proposes allowing tech companies to use copyrighted material, has suffered 1/5 defeat in
the Lords. This was repeated by one
of the presenters on the today program, he stated, "The Data Bill allows AI companies to use copyright material" I am really glad the today
program have apologised and corrected the record because let me
reiterate, this is not an AI Bill
and it does not propose changing copyright in any regard whatsoever.
If the Bill goes forward in the way that the government is proposing,
there will be no diminution in the robustness of the UK copyright regime. And in the words of Richard
the second, I think sometimes I want to say you have mistook us all this while.
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I thank the Minister for giving way, he does understand that the industry wants a timeline and a
industry wants a timeline and a vehicle. And I accept what he said at the start of this speech but really they are desperate, they are
having their intellectual property
stolen, day by day by day, and they want a timeline and a vehicle and I hope he is going to confirm that the Government is going to bring one forward.
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forward. He knows I'm not going to. And he also knows that the enforcement of
also knows that the enforcement of copyright law is not a matter for the government, it is not a government that enforces it. I have
government that enforces it. I have got the enforcement regulations here. And Chapter six of the Copyright Designs and Patents Act
Copyright Designs and Patents Act 1988 makes very clear how infringement is actionable by
infringement is actionable by copyright owners. And in common with many bits of the law and statute law
in the UK, enforcement is not
normally by government, it is by either the prosecuting authorities or it is by people taking civil action.
And those other measures that existing copyright law today
and we are not changing them in one regard... In a single regard. Having
said all that, I want to acknowledge the strong feelings that have been expressed in both Houses about the need to protect the intellectual
property rights of 2.4 million people who work in the creative
industries in this country. Including the significant proportion of the creative industries which are
represented by the tech industries, who calls are celebrating London
tech week this week.
There lordships have, it has to be said, been persistent. So much so they remind me of a poem by Robert Browning...
Which is about the 18th-century Venetian composer. It uses several
musical terms such as the dominant and includes the line Hark the
dominant persistence tell it must be answer to. The Lords have been persistent, which is why we have not
just listen to them, we have heard them and we are answering them. That
is why although this Bill is largely drafted by the previous government did not originally referred to the matter of copyright at all, we
tabled specific requirements of the Government at a previous stage, firstly to produce an economic
impact assessment of the options available to us and secondly to report on key issues, including transparency, technical solutions,
access to data and copyright licensing within 12 months.
Today, in response to their lordships, we
in response to their lordships, we
are going several steps further. Firstly we are adding to further reporting requirements on approaches
to models trade overseas and on how transparency and other requirements should be enforced. Second, in
response to the call for us to work faster, meeting the point that honourable gentlemen has just made, right honourable gentlemen has just
me, we will deliver the economic impact assessment report within nine rather than 12 months. And thirdly
we are introducing a new requirement that will -- that the Secretary of State make progress statement within
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six months of this Bill is Royal I welcome the amendments and think that they are helpful and
think that they are helpful and useful. We are missing transparency. It is what the Lords wants and what
It is what the Lords wants and what artists want and that is the commitment the government will deal
commitment the government will deal with issues of transparency. Why won't you sit down and compromise
won't you sit down and compromise with the House of Lords to get a solution that works for everybody? Speak I think the most important compromise will be between the AI
compromise will be between the AI sector and creative industries and that is what we must negotiate in
the next few months.
I disagree with
the next few months. I disagree with him about the idea of wanting to put simply one part of the jigsaw into the bill because the truth is that
the bill because the truth is that if we are going to get you proper compromise and solution, it will require all the bits of the jigsaw to be put together into a
comprehensive picture and that means that we must go through proper
process. The last time we discussed all these things, you refer to the noble Lord Peter Mandelson and
amendments he said were tabled which
we thought were to do with Napster
and the Digital Economy Act, 2010.
I sat through all the debates over that bill in 2010 and we went through a process to get to that
bill and produced a white paper, then legislation, and it went through both houses and was introduced by Lord Mandelson in the
House of Lords and by Ben Bradshaw in the House of Commons and most of it was so controversial that, in the
end, it was never adopted by the government that took over in 2010
large chunks taken out where had colluded with the general election.
I'm not sure it is quite as he thought at the time but the key point is that we have got to go through proper process of
conciliation in the area and that is
introducing legislation once we have considered the responses, discussing
bringing forward economic impact assessments, and considering all the different aspects that really matter to the creative industry and tech
companies and considering legislation. I want to do that as
fast as we can because I want to get to a solution for the problem now.
The government has tabled an amendment putting these commitments in the legislation on the face of
the bill and they were initially tabled in the other place but not voted on by peers who instead
insisted on the amendment we
disagree to last Tuesday. In fact,
as I understand, it has moved. These amendments shall commitment to ensuring considered and effective solutions, as I have a claim, and demonstrate we have unequivocally
heard the concerns about accountability. There is one other
piece of work that we must do.
The House knows will bring together a
working group to consider transparency and solutions and these will have representatives from AI and the creative industry and there
will be an extra parliamentary... Of course.
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I thank the Minister for giving way and being so generous with his time. Could he outline on the point
time. Could he outline on the point how the government will decide which
how the government will decide which parliamentarians will go in the group and how they will be chosen?
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group and how they will be chosen? I go -- I was about to come to that. She has a faster timeline than
that. She has a faster timeline than I have. There is expertise within Parliament and that is why I'm
Parliament and that is why I'm committing that the government will convene a series of meetings to keep interested parliamentarians and from
interested parliamentarians and from
interested parliamentarians and from the with the progress on this. These working meetings will include a cross-party group made up of MPs and
cross-party group made up of MPs and peers and we hope the group can act as an informal sounding board but is not intended to replicate or replace
established body such as the select
committees and the chair of the Culture, Sport Committee in her normal place and I would not dream of telling her committee what to do but we would nonetheless like to be
able to draw upon the members and
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their expertise. I thought that might happen, yes. Later on Friday night after
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Later on Friday night after
hours, if you like, emails were sent to the chairs of the two relevant select committees suggesting this approach and that was the first that
approach and that was the first that we had a bit and then an email went
we had a bit and then an email went This was rather horrid and breathless and not very courteous to the House and the honourable gentleman has written two respected books about Parliament and I'm sure
books about Parliament and I'm sure he did not intended this is bad but we must be clear that scrutiny is scrutiny and policy making is a second thing and to combine the two
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is not appropriate. On the last point, I completely agree. Scrutiny of government
legislation either through proper processes in this House or any other
is one thing, or, for that matter, select committees which do it differently and that is one thing and the business of developing
policy is another. What we are trying to do, and I apologise for
what was an inadvertent sending to
the wrong email address and the rest and we are trying to engage as many members of Parliament in this House and the other as we can in this
matter clearly matters to a number of MPs including my right honourable
friend who has a large creative community in her own constituency.
We want to involve as many people as we can. We may be moving faster than
we can. We may be moving faster than
we want on some occasions and I apologise for the inadvertent discourtesy. We are simply trying to
discourtesy. We are simply trying to
engage as many people as we can and
as she is the Chair of the Liaison Committee I wonder if it would be useful to meet with relevant committees to discuss what shape
that should take and what would be useful and informative rather than anything that might undermine the
process.
My honourable friend wanted to intervene.
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It's important to get creative voices in the room and have the conversation I will be part of the remit of that group to bring members
and to discuss concerns.
and to discuss concerns.
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I remained the Minister that we have got four backbenchers wishing to contribute. I feel that I have been told. I
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I feel that I have been told. I will try... I've been told off for being too long and two short, too
being too long and two short, too fast and too slow. The point I was going to make was that we are already committed to creating two
already committed to creating two working groups which will look at transparency and technical solutions
transparency and technical solutions to the problems we are facing and both will have members of creative
both will have members of creative industries and members of the pack and AI companies engaged and, in addition, we want to have a second thing, members of this House and the
other house engaged to have an interest in the subject and helping us with these policy areas.
I think
it is best to keep separate and that is the plan. The Secretary of State,
as we know, has written to the chairs of the relevant committees. I
see I am getting a slight nod from the chair about the prospect of
sorting out a way forward on that. A few words about ping-pong. Some
peers have suggested different rules apply because the bill started in
the Lords. This is not true. Double
insistence would kill the bill forever it started and I take people at their word when they say that
they do not want to kill the bill.
It has important measures which will enable digital verification services and smite data schemes to grow the
economy and save the NHS time, make vital amendments to policing laws,
and support communication and adequacy reform. The provisions of
the support of all parties in both houses which is why I urge the House to accept our points of view and I
would urge the Lordships to agree
with us. If they do persist, they are not just delaying and
imperilling a bill which all parties agree is important and necessary but they are imperilling something else of much greater significance and
importance economically which is
data adequacy with the EU.
And with the successful renewal of the adequacy decisions, it is predicated
on us having a settled law as soon as possible and we will not have
that until B bill gains Royal assent. I cannot over emphasise how important this is and I'm mystified
why members of all parties would
want to imperil that and I'm mystified by the position of the Conservative Party who tabled
amendments at the report stage which are almost exactly mirrored by what we have already added to the bill and are adding today.
I very much
hope that they will agree the motion
today. It is not as if they disagree with any of the measures in this
bill. It is why I am grateful to Baroness Kidron who sat in the
Lords, "I want to make it clear that
whatever transpires I will accept the point." She later reiterated and added, "If we choose to vote on this
and successfully pass it, I will accept anything the House of Commons does and will not stand in front of
Your Lordships again to press our case." She is like.
Only one House
is elected and only one House constitutes the government of the
day and especially in terms of the general election, the unelected
House treads carefully. This is also all the more important when the governing party has barely 1 fifth
of the members of the other house. We have listened to them and taken action. We may disagree about the
measures we have taken but it would be wrong to say we have not listened and it is time for them to agree it will go forward.
One final word about creativity. We live in an
exceptional edge. When our parents were young, they were lucky if they had a television or record player. They might occasionally go to a gig or a concert. If he had a
television, they only had a choice of 2-3. By contrast, we are
surrounded by human content in a way
no other generation was. Technology
has brought us more content. We can watch more drama than ever and listen to our own choice of music on the train, bus, and the car, play games online with friends on the
other side of the world.
More books are published and we can't listen to them, read them, and more than twice
as many people went to the theatre last government to a Premier League
match. There is also the interaction of AI with creativity which is part of humanity. It requires human to
human connection and I don't think for a single instant that will
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change. I beg to move. The question is that this House insists on the disagreement with the
insists on the disagreement with the
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insists on the disagreement with the Lords on Amendment 40 -- 49F. It feels like we are going from
14:14
Dr Ben Spencer MP (Runnymede and Weybridge, Conservative)
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It feels like we are going from
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It feels like we are going from Groundhog Day to 'Lost in Translation'. Today, I will try something different until B House
something different until B House story, the story of this debate. A
story was read in the deep dark wood and AI saw the book and it looked
good. There was an original part of it and it said it was awfully sweet
but they were meeting the author. I like you, and they don't want to
call straight, but they were was shipped by lay.
If we are to
partner, please to us first. Do not,
would be naughty. Perhaps I owe an apology while thanking her for the national treasure and I look forward
national treasure and I look forward
to the third book in the series of
'The Gruffalo'.. Transparency is fundamental to protect creative
endeavour. No one can doubt that the Minister has done his best to
demonstrate the nature of the creative spirit in the face of
adversity and avoid committing to legislating and the pain people on
transparency.
This week, it is a new Parliamentary working group. Last week, it was a feud. Next week, may even be citizens' assembly. The creative industries are not buying
it. Our noble colleagues in the other place are not buying it. Members of opposition parties and
some of his own benches are not
Because the government has lost the confidence of its stakeholders that
they will bring forward legislation to enact effective and proportionate
transparency requirements for AI models in the use of their creative content, AI companies need to buy
it.
It is this loss of confidence in the Government's will to take decisive action that nothing short
of a commitment to bring forward legislation will be enough to allay the fears of creative industries.
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Fears that... Thank you. I would like to thank the honourable member for his
the honourable member for his creativity in his speech. I think the heart of this debate is whether
the heart of this debate is whether or not create tools asked before we
or not create tools asked before we steal their material or still Dessau. -- Creators are asked. And also they are eliminated for that. That is the commitment we have heard
That is the commitment we have heard from the Minister and from the Secretary of State in his media
Secretary of State in his media performance at the weekend.
Usher remunerated for that. This is a
problem that predates this year. It dates back to the starting stolen for a considerable number of years. Why didn't the last government take
any initiative to ensure that creatives receive their just rewards
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for their creativity? I thank her for her intervention. What the last government did not do
is release a consultation that had a ministerial forward to say the position of copyright was not certain will stop what it did not do
certain will stop what it did not do was to say it had a preferred option
in terms of opt out, which has the creative industry, caused all this problem in the first place. It is this government's ham-fisted approach that has caused so many
approach that has caused so many problems which the Government is now trying to fix and unfortunately, failing.
The Government has played a large part in creating this problem.
The Lords...
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The Lords... ... I'm not going to let honourable gentlemen get away with that. The last government did not do anything on this issue put up
anything on this issue put up basically because it did not understand what was going on and it
understand what was going on and it did not care for the little it did understand about some of the threats
from AI. I think what the honourable gentlemen should do, as he asked the Labour benches yesterday, apologise for the inaction of the past few
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years. Because a lot of this is down to them. ... Allowed honourable gentlemen
to respond to the first point...
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As I said, this is clearly a tricky area to legislate, I have said at the Dispatch Box many times and at the committee stage many
and at the committee stage many times. But what is not helping is the uncertainty that has been created throughout these debates
created throughout these debates about the positional copyright law, preferred dad options, the status of opt out, which is why we have got
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into this pickle in the first place. Thank you very much to my honourable friend for giving way.
honourable friend for giving way. There does seem to be mass amnesia breaking out across the chamber.
Because the last government did do something on this issue, they set up a working group between AI companies and the creative industries. The AI
and the creative industries. The AI companies walked away. And we are almost at risk of recreating history
by this government wanted to set up exactly the same working group and thinking that by doing the same
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thing again, that somehow the outcome will be different. I thank the chair of the Select Committee, who is also trying to
Committee, who is also trying to break us out after Groundhog Day
break us out after Groundhog Day that we seem to have found ourselves
that we seem to have found ourselves into. The Lords Amendment does not... The government's policy options nor does it describe how proportionate transparency should be
proportionate transparency should be achieved, it seemed he put a line in the sand for the government to act on this hugely important issue.
-- Simply puts I line in the sand.
Simply puts I line in the sand. Reprising the AI and the Gruffalo.
Reprising the AI and the Gruffalo. So on went the story... To be loved by its readers as a good should. Yet
the AI pondered, as it wanted it
the AI pondered, as it wanted it now, I'll simply just scrape it, the AI did a vow. When he was musing he stumbled across the offer reclining
on a patch of green moss. Their glasses and notebooks and ideas galore, they printed five books but
were working.
Their eyes came to me, they were in for a fight, both wanted the story, but who was right?
The answer is both. If reason be
sought. Content, not stolen, but licensed or bought. Be clear what you are taking, be transparent and
true and recognise the content and
its real value. Then there is no monster nor bad guy, just an allegorical rhyme and a plea to
allegorical rhyme and a plea to
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listen and take action in time. Thank you. I really hope the
shadow spokesperson sought permission to misappropriate Julia
permission to misappropriate Julia Donaldson's wonderful work. It is hardly an example that any of us
should follow. We are back here again. I would like just to put on
again. I would like just to put on record my thanks to the Government Frontbench for their engagement on this. It was particularly welcome to
this. It was particularly welcome to see the Secretary of State in his appearance on the Laura Coombs show,
take such a human approach to recognising the concern that exists
recognising the concern that exists in the creative industries and give that commitment to the nation as the
seriousness of what comes from
here..
I welcome the comments that the tech sectors will be involved in
the next phase of this work because that is essential. But I would like to stress two further points. First that that involvement must reflect both the breadth of the creative
industries music and publishing to games, films, beyond the necessary
mix of expertise. And that means the creative sector rights holders and
business affairs professionals, alongside the tech experts who
understand the complexities of data flows, meta data structures and the practicalities of any opt out system or the tech solution to be developed
from here, notwithstanding the
Secretary of State's clarity or clarification that the government no longer has a preferred position.
And
we look forward to the consultation and the findings of that
consultation being open and transparent. Because whilst all the creative sector share in the value
of copyright as a principle that is tech and sector neutral, the way that commercial licensing models
developed in practice will differ
and it is not for the Government to second-guess that. That is not a problem, in fact, it is a good
thing. The emergence of bespoke commercial partnership is precisely how the government can achieve its objective of driving effective
licensing.
But to get there we need sector specific insight and specialist input, not a one size
fits all. And I welcome the commitment to include backbenchers, stakeholders and leaders of the
industry. Crucially, the Gut must
consult and liaise with all of us on the formation, including the terms of reference for this route. -- That Government must liaise. This cannot
be presented again as a paper company. Too often we hear of officials mulling things over but not sharing what those thoughts are
or indeed what the implications could be of their latest thought.
With the best will in the world, they cannot know the business that industry can tell us more clearly
on. It is true to say I believe that the prospects for both industries
have improved as a result of this ping-pong process, as a result of the arguments that we have been having in this House and the other
place. But I want to...
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I thank my honourable friend for giving me and he mentions that the
prospects of both industries are improved. However, I have spoken in
improved. However, I have spoken in this place about my previous role as a screenwriter and referred members
a screenwriter and referred members to my register of interests. This
week the BFI reported that AI threatens the British film industry,
threatens the British film industry, over 130,000 scripts are being plundered. Does my honourable friend agree with me that if we fail to
agree with me that if we fail to
take this opportunity to deal with transparency and legislate on the
transparency and legislate on the face of the Bill, that we are leading screenwriters and other creators high and dry until we do
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legislate in the future? I thank my honourable friend for her intervention. It is, as ever,
her intervention. It is, as ever, rooted in first-hand experience and
rooted in first-hand experience and professional success that brought her to this place. And she should be listened to and the warnings he did
listened to and the warnings he did as to the implications if we do not take transparency seriously on this.
take transparency seriously on this. I would like to return to something I have raised before because I think it warrants more scrutiny.
The recurring suggestion that copyright
recurring suggestion that copyright is out of date. On the one hand, we have had the government talk about
copyright being clear and well established and of course we agree with that. Clarity only this weekend
with that. Clarity only this weekend
again that is in fact theft or privacy without any licence or permission being in place. That clarity is precisely what gives rights holders the confidence, the
control and the legal basis to license their works. Which the Government also rightly wants to
encourage.
But then in the same spirit, we learn or sense that the Government still feels copyright
somehow needs to be reformed or ignored. So could I ask the
government to take this... Could I
ask the Minister, rather, to take what I hope is the last opportunity in this moment, to give an indication of what exactly the
reform is that is being proposed in
his mind? And what would it achieve that copyright does not already do? Because the creative industry
believe it to be best in class as a respected and enforceable measure.
respected and enforceable measure.
Because if the answer is transparency or personality rights or any issue that sits around copyright, rather than within it, then let's call that what it is. But
please can we avoid vague or constructive ambiguity and language that sets hares running or
undermined confidence in what is a
frankly best in class system. If the Government is, finally... If the government is still entertaining the
idea that the stability of UK copyright law could be weakened in pursuit of an idea of innovation,
then many will feel that the shift
in tone and the shift in position in recent weeks, which is deeply welcome, will feel counter- productive and leave them concerned
still.
Thank you very much.
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Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
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Liberal Democrat spokesperson. Thank you. I would like to start with disappointing or reassuring the House that sadly I do not have a
story for you today but I will dive straight in to the amendments before
straight in to the amendments before us. Just three months after all the discussions and the cries for fairness from the creative industries who ultimately seen the daylight robbery of their life's
daylight robbery of their life's work, the Government are sending back an amendment which in essence changes the economic assessment from
changes the economic assessment from 12 to nine months for the progress statement and some expansion.
I understand this is a Data Bill and that many important elements to this
that many important elements to this legislation about the future of our data. But we must secure and absolutely to the point of the Minister, understand the importance
Minister, understand the importance of securing that data adequacy with the European Union. But the creative industry is at a critical junction with AI. Many, they already feel it
14:28
Victoria Collins MP (Harpenden and Berkhamsted, Liberal Democrat)
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with AI. Many, they already feel it is too late and they are doing what they can, fighting for transparency
and fairness for £126 billion UK industry. Three creators rights Alliance has already started to see
the impact for creators. 58% of association of photographers members
have lost commission work to generative AI services. And have seen an increase of 21% in the last
five months alone. Totalling an average of £14,400 per professional photographer. And that means a total
of approximately 43 million.
32% of illustrators report losing work to
AI, with an average loss of 9262 per affected UK creator. There is an uncomfortable truth that economic gains from AI, of which I'm sure
there will be many, will also be met with economic losses that must be
addressed. Indeed, at a tube station there are signs everywhere at the moment saying stop hiring humans.
77% of authors do not know if their work has been used to train AI. And
71% are concerned by AI mimicking the cell without consent.
65% of
fiction writers and 77% of non- fiction writers believe AI will negatively impact their future earnings. At this point, the
creative industries feels betrayed and are asking for solutions. I also welcome the statement from the
Secretary of State this weekend, who talked about looking come readily at the challenges of creatives have into the future and to bring
legislation in at the right time but that time is now. Last week's
amendment 49F highlighted the need for separate legislation and asked
for a draft bill on copyright infringement, AI and transparency over input.
Something creatives have been clear about from the start. I
have always highlighted the positive impact of technology and innovation and I have no doubt creatives will
also use AI for their creativity. But from musicians to filmmakers,
photographers, writers to painters,
the works at this massive industry have in sold off and they are left wondering what that means for them. Especially as they are already
starting to see the impact was not in my constituency, I see this creative spirit everywhere. There is
open door, caring Oasis with walls covered with local artists, a photographic Society established
over 80 years ago, where generations have learned to capture light and moment through their lens and the art society where painters and
craftspeople gather to nurture each other's artistic journey and the work of the jazz group get up and dancing.
These creators other
threads that weave a rich tapestry of British culture and the creative industries permeate our towns,
including the filming of box office hits such as guardians of the Galaxy
to Robin Hood, Prince of thieves. But who will be the guardians of this creative galaxy? And why does this theft feel a little less heroic
this theft feel a little less heroic
What's more, this is a business opportunity for those looking to adopt AI solutions and looking for transparency in due diligence.
BT
has around 1 million small business customers and saw an opportunity to
better serve them with AI solutions but hope transparency could do so
with confidence and so I asked
working groups and suggested bringing in the wider industry to unlock opportunities. From businesses to creators it should be
seen as an opportunity for the economy. Creatives are asking for something reasonable, partnership
and not appropriation. As we all
vote, I would urge members to keep
it alive.
It is bittersweet that there is a day celebrating the art
of Parliament. There are over 10,000 pieces in the archive tells the story of democracy, culture,
country. I was struck by one of the latest acquisitions called 'The
Magic Hour' which is bewitching and
a screen print and has the magic of Parliament. I hope now is the magic hour to find a way forward and set a
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new path for the future. I draw the attention of the House
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I draw the attention of the House to hide being the courtier of
to hide being the courtier of fintech company. I have really welcomed the new approach to
welcomed the new approach to innovate and expedite the process and leverage expertise and I thank
14:32
Samantha Niblett MP (South Derbyshire, Labour)
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and leverage expertise and I thank them for their work on this. Under a
month ago, the UK hosted Fintech Week at the Fintech Forum where
people came from around the world to dissipate in conversations about the
importance of the ecosystem for the
digital world. The reason attendance was so senior and strong is that after the global financial crisis,
the UK had to move to a new model and fintech was born and it was great work done in this space by the
previous government, even if it could not get their act together
over AI.
Government regulators, entrepreneurs and investors work together to create an ecosystem that
led the world in fintech and created tens of thousands of new jobs, brought in tens of millions of
investment, and created companies
with over $20 billion. In the middle of London Tech Week, there is a
technical challenge which needs addressing and so is great to hear the news today because this is an
emergency and the emergency of AI in recent times has created opportunity
and you threats for creatives who often rightly complain that their
work is reappropriated by AI without credit to the original creator but
we can be a pioneer with new solutions that will set the
standards others will follow and with demonstrated this in the past with fintech and we now hold a 10%
global market share in this area.
We have a blend of talent and
regulation and common business language and soft power as well as common law which is used by other
countries and other countries look to us to lead the way and this is a
crisis at the door and an
opportunity to be on the front foot. We are ahead of other countries experiencing the same challenges and watching us closely. This country
always steps up in times of crisis in the UK can and must take a
leading position regarding the fair use of AI in creative industries and
help protect creatives and their work which are rightly celebrated
across the world.
We should also be more focused on homegrown talent and
the inventive mindset to solve the biggest puzzles. We can move quickly
when we need to and my message is
that we need to and have two. that we need to and have two.
14:35
Dame Caroline Dinenage MP (Gosport, Conservative)
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I would like to thank the Secretary of State for sending the committee a letter on Friday evening
setting out government intentions
with AI and copyright. I have to say in reflection to what the courtier
has said that the method in which the letter was received with almost symbolic of the way the process has
been conducted from beginning to end
and it was chaotic and not entirely clear what the Secretary of State or minister intends to happen next but
minister intends to happen next but
Minister for him to have a chat and talk us through.
They set out amendments to the bill and a plan to set up the Parliamentary working group and we would like to know more
about that. I understand what the government is trying to do - it is trying to bring the Data Bill to conclusion. The problem is they are
not engaging with the fundamental existential issue here. The concerns that have been raised by people across the creative industries and
the government's amendment has
expedited the economic impact and the And Science Innovation and Tech Committees jointly with about this
This is something that should have happened from the start.
These are all welcome but the amendments
missed the point of the concern of
the creative industries and that is that without being exploited wholesale, without permission,
payment, means of redress. I would note that on May 14, the minister told the House that they did not think what was on the amendment
people deliver anything. The government giving itself nine months
rather than 12 to look at what we already know, that the favoured consultation option is unworkable,
it's less likely to deliver this quickly than the amendments that
have been proposed in the other place.
The letter from the Secretary of State also mentions a
Parliamentary working group to ensure Parliament has a voice
directly into The -- DSIT through
this process. They will report back
on this with AI developers. The government needs to be listening to the concerns of Parliament and industry stakeholders instead and
maybe then they will realise that this exercise between rights holders
and developers has been tried before, as I said earlier, including in the last Parliament which was
scrutinised at the time and each time they have got them nowhere and
talks have collapsed because the status quo suits developers working
in bad faith because they have
nothing to lose.
If the government
presses on with this working group, we will of course engage and do what
we can to support and so let's call this what it is, a distraction technique to divert attention away from the fact that they have got themselves into a terrible pickle of
the legislation, by starting the
consultation on AI and copyright when they had stated preferred outcome and being cloth eared to the
concerns of giving industries for
months and they have been virtually dragged kicking and screaming to the position and are bringing forward tiny amendments and they have gas
led members of both parties who have
tried to draw attention to this.
They have pitted creative industries against AI and almost presented them
as Luddites, allergic to technology, when they are some of the most groundbreaking and innovative
sectors out there and they are using AI every single day to produce world
bridging pieces of creative content
but the very nature of this seems to put creative industries against AI and it is deeply unfair. It is all
not good enough. It is a thinly veiled attempt to kick the can down
the road and if that was Olympics sport, he should speak to the
Minister he.
If he thinks anyone is
fooled or they want to stand up for the world living creative industries and the existential threat that this faces, he has another thing coming.
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We have a hard stop at 2:56. Over
to you, Minister. Several minutes have passed.
14:41
Pete Wishart MP (Perth and Kinross-shire, Scottish National Party)
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have passed. I'm extremely dreadful. I have a few comments to make. It's a
few comments to make. It's a pleasure to follow the honourable lady, the Chair of the Select
Committee. She was somebody who understood issues and someone prepared to find a solution and
where the last group were appalling
at dealing with this issue, she made every effort to try and get to the heart of the debate. It has been
quite extraordinary episode I cannot believe we are back here for the fifth time.
Usually in these
situations, these things are resolved and dealt with in a meaningful way and compromises
reached between the Lords at the House of Commons but that has failed
to materialise and the whole episode
is interesting that -- has an interesting dynamic. The Minister
and I are celebrating 24 years of continuous membership of the House and I'm sure he will agree with
never seen anything like how we have
got to this. If he has an example, and I'm sure you will but is almost photographic memory, he will provide
details.
What is disturbing is that the government has failed to try to
reach some kind of meaningful compromise. And the inability to secure one is quite baffling. I tried to think of a few ways we
might get around this and it might be an idea to get the Secretary of
State and Elton John in the same room, locked the door, and see if
they can come up with a solution. We are trying to find a way forward. Maybe that is one way we can achieve this.
The refusal of the Lords to
listen to this view and respect the
convention that ping-pong is a process and that at the end of that process, what usually happens is a workable compromise appears and they have risked undermining their own
legislative process. Again, I looted the amendment and listen carefully
to the debate and I cannot see anything wrong with it. It asks for
anything wrong with it. It asks for
a draft bill with provisions to provide transparency to copyright owners regarding the use of copyright works as data inputs for AI models and I think that is what
we were all trying to achieve and I am surprised at the government resistant to this.
It is quite
modest and I tend to try to find solutions. I welcome the amendments.
I think the one that excites me most
is involving this House and the Parliamentary resource and the
ability to come forward and play a meaningful part and I hope it will be extended to all parties across
the House. He says, "Steven May" -- "Even me." I think every single
aspect has to be part of the work. What it does not in this key issue,
it does not attempt to deal with issues around transparency at all
and there are amendments that have been tabled and they have been
rejected and once again, he is right, bringing this back to try and
give us something.
Having listened and compromised with the House of Lords is nothing of that sort at all but the key issue around
transparency that the House of Lords wants and the creative sector was an
artist around the UK want to see in place and the existing law should be
enforced to protect the wages of 2.4 million creative workers and the government must put forward a
meaningful compromise amendment. It is possible for the government to take powers to introduce transparency via regulation and recognising the urgent need to
prevent mass theft by AI.
I do not know why they are not exploring
know why they are not exploring
this. The wages are at stake and the creative industries are clear that
inaction on the part of the government is giving big tech the
freedom to break laws and destroy jobs. Copyright is not an abstract concept. It is what secures creative
success. The government will win in the House today and probably the
whole debate but it has lost the battle in all of this.
One good
thing that has come of this is that people now understand that it is our copyright laws, our standard
copyright regime, that underpins the success of the creative industries of the UK across the world with some
of the greatest artists from the world from these islands and they have had success because of intellectual property rights and
property laws and to muck about with them and they really have done recently and remains all of that and
the ability to continue to lead in the sectors.
I hope that even at this very late stage, some sort of
compromise can be found with transparency at the heart of the Sunday appeal to the Minister to
Sunday appeal to the Minister to
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I leave the House, just a few
14:46
Chris Bryant MP, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Rhondda and Ogmore, Labour)
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comments because I thought it was Norton to respond to the sum of the question specifically asked. Two of my honourable friends referred to
the BFI report that was published yesterday, I warmly commend this to all members of the House, not least
because it sadly makes some of the points to me by others about AI but also makes another point about AI,
which is a film and high-end television in the UK is to be
successful in the future, it cannot have the critical shortfall in AI education, which is entirely piecemeal at the moment, and that
needs to change.
We know that in the department and that is one of the
things we want to change. Second, several members have asked the question about who is going to be involved in all these various
different groups. I do want to draw on all the expertise that there is in this House and in the other
house, to make sure that we can get the right answers. I do not want to undermine anything that the select
committees might do, either jointly
or separately or individually.
I am also very keen, as my honourable friends Arbery said earlier, that we need to have all the different parts
of the creative industries engaged in this process. The difference is
we might end up with a very large round table and people might have to bear with us about how we structure that will stop -- honourable friend
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for Bury. OK, because she wasn't here earlier but I think... I thank the Minister for giving way and I apologise for not being
way and I apologise for not being here and I do want to commend the Government on engaging in a cross-
Government on engaging in a cross- party discussion on AI, as the country indeed needs to. But I would
country indeed needs to. But I would say to him that from the beginning of this, the key issue here is to ensure that the tech companies
ensure that the tech companies understand that transparency in
understand that transparency in copyright and transparency in AI is not a nice to have, it is not something that is in the gift, it is
something that is in the gift, it is an absolute requirement.
And if they were not require it -- if they will not deliver it, then the Minister will.
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will. Transparency is absolutely key to
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Transparency is absolutely key to be able to deliver the package that we would like to put together. Absolutely key. I do not result from
that. That it is only one of the part of the jigsaw that we need to be able to put together. I might
just referred to the comments of the chair the culture committee. I would point out that some of the things on
the order paper today are things that the two select committees actually asked for us to do.
She is normally more generous to me and
others then she has been today. I would just say to her that she clearly has forgotten that the previous government actually
introduced plans which would have
brought forward a tech and data mining -- text and data mining exemptions what exportation of
copyrighted materials without any additional protections for creative industries at all. That seems to
have slipped her mind. We have moved a considerable deal since this Bill
started. The Secretary of State for
culture media and the secretary of state the Science, Innovation and Technology Committee was sitting beside me, we have moved and we have
listened to what they Lordships and more importantly, the creative industries have to say on this.
The
Member for Perth and Kinross asked me whether I have ever known anything like this. There have been other bills have gone to 5 g of
ping-pong. Always in the past, the row has been about what is in the
Bill, not about what is not in the
Bill. This is not an AI Bill stop it will not change the copyright regime in this country. I want the
copyright regime to be as robust as it ever has been, so the creative industries can be remunerated and
earn a living as they deserve to do.
That is precisely what we intend to
achieve but we want to get the Data Bill on the statute book as soon as possible. That is why I need the
House to vote with us this afternoon and I hope the Lordships will agree with us tomorrow.
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The question is that this House insists on its disagreement with the Lords in their amendment 49F and
14:50
Division
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Lords in their amendment 49F and proposes amendments letter a to E in lieu. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye". Of the contrary, "No". Division. Clear
Mr Mr Spencer. Mr Spencer. The
Mr Spencer. The question Mr Spencer. The question is Mr Spencer. The question is as Mr Spencer. The question is as on the Order Paper. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye". Of the
contrary, "No". Telus for the eyes are Gerald Jones and Anna McMorrin
and Telus for the nose...
-- cellars
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Lock Lock the Lock the doors.
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Order, Order, order.
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The The ayes The ayes to The ayes to the The ayes to the right,
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The ayes to the right, 304 The ayes to the right, 304 The
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The ayes to the right, 304 The
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The ayes to the right, 304 The noes to the left, 109. -- 189. The
noes to the left, 109. -- 189. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. That includes consideration of the Lords message relating to the Data (Use
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and Access) Bill, Lords. As amended in Public Bill
Committee to be further considered.
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I will give a few moments. We
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I will give a few moments. We will now begin with the new clause
will now begin with the new clause 22, with which we will convenient the other clauses and amendments as
15:05
Legislation: Planning and Infrastructure Bill (Day Two): Remaining Stages
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the other clauses and amendments as
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the other clauses and amendments as I beg to move that the clause be read a second time. I'm grateful for
15:05
Freddie van Mierlo MP (Henley and Thame, Liberal Democrat)
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read a second time. I'm grateful for the opportunity to move the new
clause 22. Active travel, cycling,
walking, wheeling, it is hugely beneficial and I'm sure that sentiment is shared throughout the
House. Even when there is within this and funding to progress a
scheme, it can be hard to get a plan of the grant. This is because landowners refuse to cooperate and
landowners refuse to cooperate and
see -- CPOs are often used for road projects but with travel, there is
often reluctance.
I'm grateful to the Minister for responding to my Parliamentary question on this
matter. On 15 May, I was informed by the Minister no assessment has been made to the effectiveness of
compulsory purchase orders in progressing active travel schemes. Somewhat surprising given the scope of the Bill which aims to speed up
project delivery but he assured me
that local authorities can use CPOs
for active travel and there's a difference between what is theoretically possible and what is love. This was voiced by my honourable friend and constituency
neighbour and powerful advocate for
Informed that updated guidance was
published in October of last year and it would be updated following the passing of the bill.
I have been through the guidance and I can tell be house nothing in the guidance
refers to active travel. It only follows in terms of the umbrella
term 'highway' was not the problem is it works for roads but are
insufficiently adapted for an active travel project. The guidance is no statutory guidance but an interpretation of current law. The
other guidance is upcoming guidance from England." This will support the
local authorities but it does not include considerations for compulsory purchase orders. Again
and again, there is already guidance
but it is insufficient and does not cover compulsory purchase orders.
In response to one of my written questions, the government has shared
future guidance on case studies on
the use of CPOs. Active Travel and does enough work. That is why the new clause which specifically
requires it to be published by ministers should be part of this bill. All other options have been
exhausted. I want to make clear before going further that I do not
believe CPOs should be like that. It
is better to have constructive relationships with landowners.
They should be the last resort but that
the threat of one, we are sending of
local authorities with both hands behind their backs. My county is hugely ambitious and designed to
rule out a county wide strategic travel network linking towns and
villages together. In my own corner
of the county, there is clear case that would link up the tone and
allow the villagers to safely get to the next town. There is widespread cross-party support in Oxfordshire
and Buckinghamshire and we are working closely together to progress the project.
I thank the honourable
member from Buckinghamshire for his
support. When I was the counsellor, the residents of the town would tell
me how valuable a cycleway would be. The town sits just off junction six
of the M 40 and has good bus connections to London and Oxford
through the Oxford tube. An informal park-and-ride works well enough but wouldn't it be so much better if
wouldn't it be so much better if
there was a sign for the 2.5 miles.
I learned early on the landowner has no intention of cooperating, even though an old railway would be a
perfect route. The project was stopped dead in its tracks. It may surprise members that the issue that
the amendment seeks to address has been considered closely by colleagues in Wales. In 2019, the
colleagues in Wales. In 2019, the
Welsh assembly looked in detail at the issue and the economy, infrastructure and skills committee
made some observations in terms of the Active Travel Act which I think are relevant.
The committee was
cross-party and cheered by a member
of the Welsh Conservatives. Evidence that that without effective support to ensure land is made available, key sections that could make
everyday journeys viable could take
years to be delivered or not be delivered at all. It was suggested that the process is a block on
active travel routes and since the objection may be made on the grounds
that there are one or more, albeit alternative, lower grid options,
leaving local authorities vulnerable to challenge.
As a result, local
authorities are prevented from
beginning the CPO process and it was then stated that greater guidance and support was needed for local authorities and they concluded with recommendation the Welsh government
should act with other stakeholders to find ways to unblock the process
to find ways to unblock the process
of using CPOs for cycle routes. Perhaps recognising the problem, in
response to a written question yesterday, the Minister pointed me in the direction of public park
construction under the highways act.
Again, I'm grateful for his response but it raises more questions than answers and the Minister will be
pleased to hear I will submit more questions through the members hub. I've worked with local groups
previously wanted to get registered and it is simply not possible for
them to create public path where
none exist. The application process provides statements from multiple people showing continuous use of at least 20 years and this does not
work when it cannot be used due to
private ownership.
Before I wrap up, I will showcase the work of the Welsh government. The Welsh government recognises that funding
for active travel can be hard to find and is often assembled
piecemeal, giving rise to a chicken-and-egg situation. Why get a
CPO if there is no funding and why it funding if there is no viable
route. The guidance therefore requires compelling public interest in acquisition but not in financial readiness and in England the
guidance emphasises the importance of demonstrating financial readiness. Will be Mr consider
following in the footsteps of Wales on that matter? I asked the
government not to dismiss concerns around the inadequacy of the current guidance and the good work of
colleagues in Wales.
If the government is serious, they would be
engaging on these issues and I'm sure they will want to following
this debate. Finally, if I may spend a few minutes to make remarks and other amendments in gringos tabled
by my honourable friend, we hope that value has been removed to
improve the use of CPOs for some
projects. Amendments 88 and 89 would ensure the value is not added to the
cost of facilities such as playing fields when an authority has
purchased the land with that intention.
Removing the value of homes is particularly important in an area like Oxfordshire where any whiff of development massively
increases cost. It is one of the reasons why so many small and medium-sized farms will be caught by
government changes to agricultural property relief and if we accept the principle of disregarding the value
in the House then it should be applied to the value of land for purchases for the purposes of
inheritance tax for farms. I offer my support to the new clause 100 and
which would create a duty for any public body to consider the public good when selling land or property.
I'm aware of local organisations with good causes in my constituency
who are looking for space to support activities where land is disposed of by local authorities. It is right
that local organisations benefit when local public bodies sell land
properties. For example the men's
shed movement which seeks to improve the mental health of men by offering practical activities in a shared
space. Thank you for allowing me to speak to these amendments. I humbly ask the members across the House to
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Use of Compulsory Purchase Powers
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Use of Compulsory Purchase Powers for Active Travel Routes. Speak the
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for Active Travel Routes. Speak the question is the new clause be read a second time. It is fantastic to be spitting on
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It is fantastic to be spitting on a subject that has been part of my career for the best part of 20 years
career for the best part of 20 years working in construction, starting as a civil engineer and finishing working on major programs around the
working on major programs around the
working on major programs around the world and planning, and particularly in respect of national programs, has been a headache for me for a long time with the prolonged graceful
time with the prolonged graceful consultation that we see happen on
major programs stopping the urgency and the approach to delivering major infrastructure, particularly that we
need, is almost deaf by 1000 cuts
for many communities.
-- death. It
is fatigue and drives a culture of NIMBYism rather than delivering the infrastructure that we need and that everyone calls out for within the
constituency. I'm excited that this bill has drawn so much interest on
15:16
Mike Reader MP (Northampton South, Labour)
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the subject of planning and I was amazed to read through all the fantastic amendments made, many
fantastic amendments made, many about the full scope of this Bill, about speeding up delivery and
about speeding up delivery and delivering on the... But fantastic
delivering on the... But fantastic to see, whether on fifth -- swift bricks, travel, all essential to
bricks, travel, all essential to making communities that last and can
making communities that last and can immunities that people want to live in.
I look forward to more continued activism from people across the House and be blue spoke up and
spoken so passionately about planning, I'm sure it was not just for social media and the clips. In
for social media and the clips. In relation to clause 22, I recognise what honourable member has just said. My big concern is of course,
and we have seen it before, that forcing change, compulsory change
being one such example, does not change behaviour. As someone who had election leaflets run saying I was
going to run ULEZ in Northampton by the party opposite, it is a topic that becomes weaponised when we try
and force it through, rather than bringing communities along with us.
I do not think it is the right
approach that has been laid with today but I look forward to hearing the debate on that further. I want to talk about about developer corporations. Having worked around
the world in a variety of different scenarios, seeing how different -- different country set up different vehicles to set up them for
structure we need, I'm really pleased to see the additional powers come forward to enable us to deliver quicker and urgency back into
delivery. Whether new towns, the
powers that are increased to this Bill are really critical to making
sure we have flexibility in the way that we deliver those homes and they
reflect on the local community.
We have sustainability at the heart of development, that local communities and local bodies can work together to make sure the places we deliver
in the new towns program particularly our greed and the places that are sustainable and long-term. -- To C(E)TR green. I'm physically transport provisions in
the Bill I am really happy to see,
often I see too many smaller communities disconnected by the lack of transport and thinking about how people are going to get from place
to place, so critical when we create these new towns, ultimately that is about creating places.
These are
just new towns, need to create places that people want to live,
want to work and want to stay in. We cannot do that without development cooperation. As in apparent good they create places like East London,
I spent a small amount of time living in Newham and seeing the powers that LDC had post-Olympics.
To transform a deprived area in London through the town and cooperation they had there was fantastic and what they could have
done with the additional powers in
this Bill.
Creating that ownership
locally and that drive to deliver is absolutely critical and cannot just come from top down. So the change of developer cooperation arrangements I think one of the biggest under
subpart of this Bill and will really enable us to drive and deliver the
homes that the hundreds of thousands of people living in temporary accommodation in hotels right across our constituencies desperately need. I would just reflect on the day, I
have had this conversation privately
with the Minister, there's plenty more to do on top of this.
There is a whole host of things we could do
around digital planning. I was really pleased to see, my surprise that we would be trialling AI in the planning process in the UK. That
could radically improve the way we deliver projects across the UK. The communities are living in uncertainty for weeks and even months, as overstretched under
resource planning authorities try to work through the backlog that has
been left after austerity and after the many cuts the party opposite me to Local Government. There is also
work to do Building Regulations, is great to hear swift bricks brought forward that there are better ways
of delivering up.
Making sure the delivery of major programs, there is further work to do around consenting and how that is delivered through nationally significant
infrastructure projects. This is a fantastic bill, the next stage is about delivery. The government has to move from policy focus into
delivery focus. And how we make Natural England work and the nature development fund, how we make sure
we work with partners from across the sector, from NGOs through to develop an organisation is going to be critical in making this Bill work
and I look forward to working with the Minister and the Department to make sure that comes to fruition.
15:20
Paul Holmes MP (Hamble Valley, Conservative)
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I call shadow minister.
15:20
Mike Reader MP (Northampton South, Labour)
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Can I say, it is a pleasure to follow the honourable gentlemen, the member for Northampton South, who speech was very generous and
15:21
Paul Holmes MP (Hamble Valley, Conservative)
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congratulatory to many members on the amendments they have put forward in this legislation and I welcome
in this legislation and I welcome his constructive tone in outlining his position on this piece of legislation. Can I firstly, because
legislation. Can I firstly, because I know Members of the House across the chamber will be devastated to
the chamber will be devastated to hear it will be my last contribution to the passage of this Bill before third reading, I know, I know. Before my right honourable friend,
Before my right honourable friend, the shadow Secretary of State takes third reading.
Can I thank the
third reading. Can I thank the Minister for his hard work on the Bill Committee. All members who contributed in the Bill Committee but also the clerks and staff who
but also the clerks and staff who supported us amazingly through the
passage of what was, I thought, quite a long, challenging and often frustrating Bill Committee. Part of
frustrating Bill Committee. Part of that Bill Committee we all, the members of this Bill Committee, lived through the emotional journey of whether Charlton would be
promoted.
The team that the Minister so pleasurably and so passionately
supports. And all I would say to him, as I said in Bill Committee and
I stand by it, he is welcomed out of the den for their next match against Millwall, I will let him sit on. I
will even let him sit on our side of
the stadium. I would like to thank all members of the Bill Committee but I would also like to
congratulate all members who, like the honourable gentleman from Northampton himself, had tabled amendments to this piece of legislation.
We have had a weird,
wonderful and varied number of new clauses and amendments. Some, as honourable gentlemen said, may have been challenging in finding them to
be in the scope of the legislation but I trust the clients to make that decision and therefore they stood.
And I look forward to, very briefly you will be pleased to hear, outline some of our positions on some of the
new clauses and amendments that are before the House this afternoon.
There is a very small part of the Bill that is being allocated time this afternoon, a majority of the
mainstream clauses that we have opposition to were in yesterday's session.
In what I thought personally was quite a frustrating
and emotive session last night. But
I look forward to trying to challenge the Minister, though I might say is slightly less grumpy than he was last night, to plead on
his good intentions on this Bill to
maybe accept some of the amendments we put forward. But then again, I may be dreaming. I think it is
clear, and I want to state this from the very beginning today, that it is
clear that the Minister and the Government have had a driving mission in this legislation.
And we
recognise that on this side of the House. But he knows that we have many disagreements about how we get
to that driving mission that the Minister has outlined. And we have
been very clear through the passage of this Bill, through Bill Committee, at second reading and as I will outline this afternoon, as
well as my right honourable friend the Secretary of State will outline later, that we do have many core fundamental and principal
disagreements with some of the measures that the Minister has outlining to help this Bill go
forward.
And although we agree with him that we do need to build more houses, we do need to see and
infrastructure first approach and we
do need to see some development unlocked, we have a fundamental disagreement with, as I said yesterday, the centralising zeal that the Minister and Deputy Prime
Minister seem to want to put forward to be able to get there. Do believe that the Minister could have looked
that the Minister could have looked
more favourably on new clauses and amendments through the passage of this Bill, not just tabled by my party or by my honourable friend,
but by other parties in the House, some of his own backbenchers.
Who have put down well-intentioned and well-meaning amendments and new clauses to this Bill.
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I'm grateful to the shadow
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I'm grateful to the shadow minister for giving way and I think like others I sat in the chamber yesterday listening to so many amendments that the Government just
amendments that the Government just voted down. It feels like actually we have had in front of us an
we have had in front of us an opportunity to do something really good with this Bill and we have missed that opportunity. Does the shadow minister agree with me that
shadow minister agree with me that if we're not careful, what we are going to end up faced with Isabel, a
piece of legislation that is just going to drive Coach and horses to our communities, throughout green belt and does nothing for nature, for farmers, for communities and the
for farmers, for communities and the people that want those?
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people that want those? My right honourable friend, not uncharacteristically, has made a valuable point and I entirely agree with her. I said yesterday that the
with her. I said yesterday that the Minister, and I am about to say today again, the Minister has a unique opportunity in this piece of
legislation, a very detailed and what could be a groundbreaking piece
of legislation, to fundamentally change the planning processes in this country for the better. And the Minister outline many times on the Bill Committee that he was
reflecting on some of the really genuine point that members from
across this House brought to him because of key concerns.
That reflections, I would say, amounted
to nothing. He said consistently he would reflect on the genuine principles that we brought forward.
We have seen no changes to this legislation. We have seen no acceptance or no working to try and
change this legislation for many really genuine concerns that many
people have brought to this piece of
legislation. As I was saying, there are many amendments and many new clauses that were brought by the Liberal Democrats and the Minister
will know I very rarely praise the Liberal Democrats on the Floor of
the House and in my constituency of Hamble Valley.
And I'm not likely to do so going forward much more. But
what I would say to the House is that actually, the honourable gentlemen, the member for Taunton and Wellington and his colleague, the honourable member for Wantage
and Didcot I believe on the Bill Committee, but some really good and really principled amendments that would have improved this legislation. Particular on chalk schemes, particularly on some of the
concerns that we share over...
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I'm grateful to my honourable friend for giving way. He will be aware that governments of all stripes tend not to accept
stripes tend not to accept amendments in this House, enormously to the frustration of colleagues from across the chamber who put them forward. Would he join me in
forward. Would he join me in encouraging the Minister and his
encouraging the Minister and his ministerial colleagues, if they have to delay to the other place, that they take that opportunity? Because
they take that opportunity? Because all of us want to see more houses built in a way that works with communities and there is an opportunity to do something, as my
opportunity to do something, as my honourable friend says, of historic.
Let's make sure when the go to the House of Lords, that is what is
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House of Lords, that is what is required and the government listens and acts. I have said on the Bill
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I have said on the Bill Committee, this is a matter of public record, I believe this minister is a principled minister who knows his stuff. Therefore he
who knows his stuff. Therefore he should not be afraid to open up his arms and embrace collective responsibility across this House to make sure that this legislation is
better and serves everybody that we serve in this country. To make sure
that the key principles that he wants to achieve are actually achievable. Because I say strongly
as I did yesterday, that the key delivery...
The key things he wants
to achieve in this Bill, such as these housing numbers, the stuff in this legislation will not help that
be achieved. And we say to him he still has the opportunity to make sure that he works with members from
all parties to make sure that this is a really important piece of legislation. I will give way one
more time and then I must make some progress.
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I'm very grateful to my honourable friend. Emeritus Professor Sarah Neil is the chairman of the New Forest Association. And
of the New Forest Association. And she writes that the current planning and environmental frameworks have played a crucial role in protecting the New Forest special qualities,
however, the proposed changes in the Bill, particularly those aimed at
Bill, particularly those aimed at streamlining planning approvals, accelerating into structure projects and weakening environmental safeguards would seriously undermine
safeguards would seriously undermine those protections.
This is not a political statement. This is a statement of concern for our most
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statement of concern for our most delicate and valuable rural areas. I thank my right honourable
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I thank my right honourable
friend for that intervention. The expert and the person that he has
expert and the person that he has quoted is from Hampshire, so I'm bound to say, as a Hampshire MP, that she is spot on. Also my right
honourable friend is spot on. Many members made contributions yesterday
where, quite frankly, there was a concern that the Minister's response to some of those environmental concerns that were raised, particular by the honourable lady
from the Green Party but also from the Liberal Democrats and my backbench colleagues, that there is a concern that environmental protections will be diminished under this legislation.
And the Minister,
quite frankly I think, seem to not take those seriously. And that quite
I think is a very good example as to why many people who are experts and
have lived through their professions day-to-day, their ambitions to make
sure the environment is improved. I
note the PPS said when did I start caring about the environment. I think she said. OK, well she might want to intervene on the issue wants
to. Or maybe just, if she wants to contribute to the debate I'm sure
she might want to Bob.
Other members
across this House, as I said to the Minister, have made very well- intentioned approaches to the Minister. I hope that we now and his
winding up in the time that we have on this debate, he will open up his arms and make sure that he look seriously at some of the amendments,
not just by my party but by all parties, to strengthen this piece of
legislation. We turn to today onto part four and five of the Bill. The Minister will know that we have some
long-standing concerns over CPO.
We on this side of the House have
always stood against what seems to have been a sustained campaign against the rights and working practices of our agricultural and
farming communities. They have done that, this government has as of
Thursday and campaign against our farmers in the removal of their subsidies, a sustained campaign against our farmers on the raising
of inheritance tax on our farming communities already don't make huge profits and struggle in their day- to-day lives. They have made their
working practices harder and in this legislation, they voted against our
amendment yesterday to improve protections on agricultural land
I suspect the Minister today will talk again some of our very sensible amendments that make the lives of our citizens who work in the
agricultural sector easier.
I have to say, from the record of this government, there has been a sustained attack on the community
and we do see that that carries on in the legislation today. That is
why, under this legislation, those rights are being removed and they are being harmed further. And I would say and do we have tried to put that right, through some of our
amendments. I know the honourable gentleman for Keighley and Ilkley will talk to some of those
amendments that we have mentioned in his role as a farming Minister.
I
A admirable role in raising the point of a farming community across the whole of the UK, to some of what
I would say very detrimental impacts of this bill and other areas of government have made against those communities. If I may... A give way
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to my honourable friend. Am grateful to my honourable friend are giving way. We agree with me that where CPO powers already existed there is a massive lack of
existed there is a massive lack of trust, between landowners and the
trust, between landowners and the acquiring authority, where all too often, proposal is put on the table, an agreement will be reached and then the actual legal agreement that comes along is a totally different
comes along is a totally different
comes along is a totally different and that there actually needs to be a CPO code of practice that gives the landowners a much greater protection.
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protection. I thank my honourable friend that intervention I think he is absolutely right to stop a also say there needs to be a code of practice for tenant farmers too. Some of the
for tenant farmers too. Some of the amendments, well, two of the amendments proposed to speak to very
amendments proposed to speak to very shortly. We do try to meet some of the challenges that currently are farming community have an hour agricultural community have in terms
of CPO.
I will elaborate on that later and I will be willing to take
the intervention if he was to find that was satisfactory. With the honourable member for Basildon and Billericay...
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Totally agree with what my honourable friend has just said. I think so many of our constituents at the moment, particularly those in the farming community already
feeling totally let down by this government are now feeling about this is another further steamroll, on their assets. And so, would the,
on their assets. And so, would the, with the opposition front bench, if
with the opposition front bench, if the Government wanted to just show our farming community. They are already putting under immense
pressure, for the first time in a very long time, they can actually show that they are a little bit on
show that they are a little bit on , when there is just so much that
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, when there is just so much that has already been done to them. It feels like it has been done to them, rather than they are being listened to, as part of the process. I thank my right honourable
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I thank my right honourable friend from Basildon and Billericay for that point. He is absolutely
right as I pleaded with the Minister, from the beginning of my remarks, I hope that he will be able to meet some of those concerns, not
just members on this side of the house, the Green party, the Liberal Democrats, but some of those key people to have communicated through consultations on this legislation, but this will harm their livelihoods
but this will harm their livelihoods
and make their lives worse.
Very briefly I would like to touch on a few amendments that we aren't speaking to today and some of our positions on them and then you will
be pleased to know, I will take my seat back on the front bench. I would like to turn to no clause 85,
tabled under the name of my honourable friend, the shadow Secretary of State. Which it seeks
to deliver a fairer and more just system of compensation for individuals who are forced to give up their homes or land through
compulsory purchase.
The current framework, under the Land Compensation Act in 1973, says
arbitrary Percentages on Home Loss and Occupies Loss Payment, Which Often Failed to Reflect the True
Value of What Is Being Lost. By Aligning Compensation more closely with the full market value of a person's interest in the property,
this clause acknowledges the deep
emotional financial and practical disruption that compulsory purchase can cause. And ensures that those who are displaced by development are not left worse off are unfairly
penalised. In doing so upholds the principle that the burden of public interest project should not fall disproportionately on individual
homeowners or landowners and it
helps to maintain trust, and fairness in the planning system.
I think that is something that the Minister can very easily get behind. I think it is something that other
parties can get behind. If we are talking about some of the real
challenges that CPO brings to people, then I think that the Minister should be slightly more open to making some amendments to the legislation, to make their lives
easier. New clause 42, tabled under my honourable friend, my honourable friend's name, the Member for
Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner pinup.
More fairly and transparently, by amending the Lang conversation at the 1973, increases occupies loss payments agricultural and other land
from two.
5% to 7. 5%, bringing the more in line with basic loss payments. Additionally it removes
arbitrary caps and fix percentages and home loss payments and conversation on the full market value of the interest, in the
dwelling. This change ensures that those displaced or impacted by compulsory purchase receive
equitable and just compensation, that reflects the true value of their property and losses, by modernising and standardising
compensation provisions, we would argue that this clause supports fairness to landowners and occupiers, making the compulsory purchase process a more balanced and
respectful of individual rights.
Something on my honourable friend has a quote rightly mentioned in his
intervention to me earlier. Just
briefly, turning to some other new clauses, tabled by other members. In relation to new clause 1 one four, tabled by the honourable gentleman
and the Member for Taunton and Wellington. Which seeks to require development corporations to provide
or facilitate the position of green spaces within the development, including a variety of green areas,
such as private gardens, balconies and community gardens. And
furthermore imposes a duty on development corporations to ensure the ongoing care and maintenance of these green spaces.
I am doing him a
favour by reading out his own clause, I apologise. I do recognise
there is a well-intentioned motive, motivation behind trying to insert this new clause into the
legislation. I would just say to the LibDem spokesman who yesterday made a big play, quite rightly, no
criticism about a big play about the role of local authorities and of
elected councillors and local plans. We believe that this is something that should be purely dealt with by our local government colleagues, by our councillors and by planning committees, so that we continue to
give them the power to serve and react to our local constituents wishes and that is something that we are keen, that local authorities,
such as my own across the whole of the country, they have the power to do that for the people that they serve.
A key disagreement between us
and the government, the Liberal Democrats agreed with us and we agree with them, in that revision of this legislation. We believe 144 is not required within this legislation
because local authorities can do
that themselves. Very briefly to what I think is a well-intentioned new cross from the honourable gentleman, from Henry in Thame.
While it is a well-intentioned in promoting active travel in the
structure, it does a risk weakening the careful balance of that compulsory purchase powers must
maintain, between public benefit and individual property rights.
By pre- emptively deeming such projects to
be in the public interest and a lowering of the evidential threshold
of a route justification, the clause could enable the use of compulsory
purchase order's, without sufficient scrutiny, or community consent. That raises legitimate concerns about fairness, proportionality and transparency. Particularly in cases where landowners may lose property without rigorous demonstration, that
the chosen route is necessary and the best option available. I think other gentlemen would expect our
long held position in this party on CPO and some of the overreaching powers for the Secretary of State
and the Minister to award themselves, in terms of CPO, it
would not be right for us to give those same powers, to make sure that
local authorities, or some of the new authorities that will be outlined within this legislation
have that power to do what he requires to.
I will very briefly.
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When he answered then if he is in favour of the use of CPOs for road projects? This amendment simply
projects? This amendment simply seems to equalise at the opportunity
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seems to equalise at the opportunity for delivering active travel, as we already use the CPOs for road projects. I understand and I say this with
respect to the honourable gentleman. I think the new clause is a well-
I think the new clause is a well- intentioned. Roads are absolutely
intentioned. Roads are absolutely necessary, sometimes within those CPO powers that are currently allocated, within existing legislation, we disagree with some of the overreach that the Minister
of the overreach that the Minister was to put forward.
We believe fundamentally the rights and responsibilities of local government
responsibilities of local government to decide how they want to allocate these routes, in a local localities.
We agree that in some cases, as with in my constituency which covers half a theremin half of easily, it is the
designation between local authorities. We disagree with approved extension of provisional powers that we do not believe should be allocated under the honourable
gentleman is a new clause of 22. I will very briefly and then I will
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finish. Will the Shadow Minister explain
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Will the Shadow Minister explain
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Will the Shadow Minister explain in that case why dragging up the regeneration act created a vast new powers for the development corporations? If you believe that all such powers should be discharged by local authorities?
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by local authorities? I knew that was coming from the honourable gentleman. What I would say to the honourable gentleman is that there are many things that that of the last government, put forward,
of the last government, put forward, in a legislation. We are looking at, again, we have been very aware about
again, we have been very aware about that. I have been a very clear about what this new Conservative party standing. That is something through
standing. That is something through the whole of this Bill committee that we have said we do not support
that we have said we do not support and that is the extension of powers, within CPO.
I am aware that you are looking at me to move on. I will
looking at me to move on. I will move on and I will restrict the
number of interventions I take. I am about to wind up. I knew a bring universal acclaim once again, by my
deputy chief whip. But I will say is that we have had a robust debate in
this House on the groundbreaking
piece of legislation. Repeatedly, much of the Minister's embarrassment, I hope you take this
in genuine spirit.
We have fundamental, fundamental disagreements are not what the measures, the measures that he is taking to get what he wants, later
down the line. But we do know, as I
have said, that there is a well intentioned and principled approach, from the Minister and they won the election, we know that. They will
not stop us having principled and
robust arguments as to how we disagree with the methods, as to how
he wants to get there. I will say again, as my right honourable friend for Brownhill has indicated in her
intervention.
The Minister did have
a chance was that he has a chance still to listen to some of the well-intentioned, some of the
educated, some of the very intellectual members and new clauses of the living put forward by all parties in this House, to strengthen this legislation, to make this
legislation better and fundamentally I will briefly, but let me finish
this point. All parties, to make sure that this legislation is it
better, more efficient, but fundamentally serves the people who sent us here, who want to see
differences in the ways in which the country is run.
We would argue that this legislation doesn't do that. We
would argue that this is a massive centralising overreach, that is being advocated by this Minister and
this Deputy Prime Minister and we stand fundamentally against it. I will give way to the honourable gentleman for Basingstoke first,
because he is a sparring partner from the Bill committee. I hope doesn't have another quote and then
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I will give way. I do have another quote, which is from yesterday. I did want to ask
from yesterday. I did want to ask
him. With regard to the amendments that the opposition brought forward. Can you point to a single one, could the honourable member point to a single measure, that would actually
single measure, that would actually increase the number of homes? Or the changes directed that the bill seems
changes directed that the bill seems to be designed to impede
development? I wanted to ask the Shadow Minister what he meant by the quote that he said yesterday in his opening remarks, when he said the last government the largest number
last government the largest number of houses, and history.
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of houses, and history. Might be helpful if I were to
15:44
Pete Wishart MP (Perth and Kinross-shire, Scottish National Party)
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Might be helpful if I were to emphasise that we are not here to read litigate yesterday's debate, we are here to debate the amendments that have been tabled today and I am
sure that the honourable member will restrict his comments to that. Shadow Minister.
15:44
Paul Holmes MP (Hamble Valley, Conservative)
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I have to say to the honourable gentleman for Basingstoke, is expecting so much, in the way in
which he intervened on me consistently in the Bill committee. What was an encyclopaedic knowledge of my previous quotes. I did not
know that he took such an interest in my career, up until this point.
What I will say to him as I know personally he is a dedicated and assiduous member of Parliament who
genuinely stands up his constituents. I will say to him is
my comments yesterday were absolutely accurate.
Over one million homes were approved, under the last government. Many, many more
people who are first-time buyers were given their chance of owning a
home, under the last government. That is despite the fact that for
the first time in history in our housing system there is now no incentivise ocean for first-time
buyers, because the measures were scrapped, by this government, including a stamp duty relief and some of the help to buy measures
that were put forward. That is the first time that we have had that
situation.
I am a very proud, we could have done more but I am very proud of the last government's record on housing. I think that the Minister and the government need to
look at the record of that we did have a first-time buyers and for private buyers, because in the emulated some of our into violation methods, we would have a better
success rate than just over half of their one. Five alien homes at the
independent experts are now claiming that they will be able to deliver.
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-- 1.5 million homes. I thank him for the entertainment that he provided throughout the Bill
that he provided throughout the Bill committee and his generosity in the tearoom. However, would he agree
tearoom. However, would he agree with me that when you talk about
with me that when you talk about reflection, when one looks in the mirror, you do not always like what
mirror, you do not always like what Quite clearly, he has decided those
Quite clearly, he has decided those things would be better left in National Planning Policy framework
as opposed to in the legislation, would he also agree that we do not have more young people buying and
have more young people buying and owning then own homes now than we
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did in 2010. The reason for that... She will have the opportunity to
contribute later, interventions need to be shorter than that.
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The honourable lady... When she says about... I know that many members were concerned about
members were concerned about generosity in the Tea Room, we were very tired and I thought a Minister
very tired and I thought a Minister for -- bought a coffee for the Minister once. I did offer one to
Minister once. I did offer one to the LibDem spokesperson. I do expect to see an inner focus leaflet or
to see an inner focus leaflet or whatever they put out in Harbour Valley say that is a Tory broken
promise.
Where did we ever take notice of the LibDem literature? In
notice of the LibDem literature? In regards of looking into the mirror, I look at that sometimes after my
I look at that sometimes after my weight gain in this House, but what I will say, the Minister,
I will say, the Minister, consistently said he would reflect and she has accepted the premise of
my argument, not once, not once in this legislation has the Minister
decided to make any attempt to take some of our serious concerns into account and he has not changed this
peaceful solution.
This is a parliamentary democracy, there is
not a monopoly on brilliant ideas, despite the fact that the Minister
thinks he has one, if he wanted to make this Bill better, he could look at some of the amendments put forward, my simple point, and accept
them. When he stands up he will not accept them and this piece of
legislation will not be able to be supported by all parties in this
House, despite the fact that if he had made some changes that could have delivered to the people of this country, we would have been able to
support it.
I think that is a shame,
some of the genuine and well- intentioned attempt to change the market will not be achievable because of the Labour government's
because of the Labour government's
intransigence. As I have said, the Minister could have made decent changes, he could have made changes from the fact that the Green Party
had serious... Serious concerns on environmental standards. I would
say, the PPS, I thought the PPS's
were supposed to sit in the notes for the Minister and not meant to contribute to the debate.
The
consistent heckling, they are aspiring to high office, I do not think they should carry on in this
way. I never did, but I was never interested. I would just say, let me
finish on this point, the Greens, the Lib Dems and Conservative Party
had a real disagreement on environment standards and it is our
contention that environment standards will not be improved under
this legislation, the honourable lady from Herefordshire had a number of amendments where experts clearly
stated they had a concern that environment standards would reduced.
The Minister did not make any
concession. On the centralisation and erosion of local powers for planning committees, we tabled a
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number of sensible... Today we are debating the
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Today we are debating the amendments that have been selected today, that is development corporations and compulsory purchase
corporations and compulsory purchase order. Perhaps his final minute could be restricted to that.
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could be restricted to that. I heed your guidance, I would say, development corporations are
say, development corporations are and over centralisation on measures that this Minister is putting forward, aligned with the fact that
planning committees will lose powers to these corporations. The Minister has not moved on that. This Bill
has not moved on that. This Bill will do more harm than good in the powers of local councils, the power that local constituents have, it
that local constituents have, it will diminish environment standards and we stand against this legislation because of the
legislation because of the intransigence the government has shown.
We will stand up for those informative standards, and for our
local authorities, it is a shame this Minister has not and that is
why we cannot support this legislation.
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I rise... Delighted to speak to
this monumental legislation today. Which is so necessary and important. I can't help but notice that at many
I can't help but notice that at many times has been a. Dichotomy, sometimes raised, that we have to choose between nature and by
choose between nature and by adversity net gain -- biodiversity net gain. I would like to stress, as
net gain. I would like to stress, as someone who comes from the most beautiful constituency in England,
Northumberland, North Northumberland, you'll know it is true, I would like to stress the
15:51
David Smith MP (North Northumberland, Labour)
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true, I would like to stress the natural beauty is vitally important but also that the people of North Northumberland want more
development. Too often, it has been about nature versus development. I
know that, for example, amendment 151 assumes that corporations will come into conflict with the need to
tackle climate change. I believe this Bill will be good for a natural
world, insofar as it unlocks a
little development that will help Northumbrians revitalise their communities and protect natural
landscapes.
As an MP for a constituency with a natural landscape, a site of scientific
interest, I cannot help but be awed
by the beauty. As amendment 151 acknowledges, a natural world faces
an uncertain future. Organisations like Northumberland National Park, the Wildlife Trust, do excellent
work in stewarding the unique technological inheritance and
encourages the government to continue to have a genuine dialogue with environmental groups as the
Bill progresses. Our language and
approach do need to honour the commitment to environmental stewardship and we need to thread
the Leader -- thread the needle.
I would like to suggest that the greatest threat to the ecological
trajectories in my constituency -- treasure trove in my constituency is dwindling revoke's and the
challenges the next-generation face in building a future for themselves.
North Northumberland is ageing, only
16% of constituents are children whilst 30% are over 65, 10% more
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than the national average. I thank him for giving way, just
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I thank him for giving way, just to bring it back to part five of the bill, which we are discussing, I
know that along the A1, there are residents severely impacted by the government decision not to continue
government decision not to continue development. I wonder if he would support our amendment on this side,
support our amendment on this side, which is new. The 22, to increase the occupies lost payment from 2.4%,
the occupies lost payment from 2.4%, up to 7.5%, which would help many of his constituents along the A1
his constituents along the A1 corridor, teacher that had this been put in place, they would have got a bigger payment to help with the pair
bigger payment to help with the pair compulsory purchase order is.
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All I can say is, I have been working with constituents who have been affected by the compulsory
purchase order's, and will continue to come we might have a disagreement about whether that project was to go
ahead or not and the last
government... In terms of rural development, where are the future ranges, and gamekeepers? Where is
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the next generation of farmhands? I am going to keep reiterating
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I am going to keep reiterating the point this afternoon, we are not going to relitigate yesterday, we
going to relitigate yesterday, we should be discussing the amendments that have been tabled around compulsory purchase order's...
compulsory purchase order's... Development corporations and extraterritorial environment concerns. The on of a gentleman
concerns. The on of a gentleman might like to think of some way he could weave his remarks around them
could weave his remarks around them rather than rehashing yesterday's debate or a second reading speech.
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debate or a second reading speech. Simply trying to make the point that many of the amendments that have been proposed seem to set up a
have been proposed seem to set up a false dichotomy between the ability
false dichotomy between the ability to develop our country, and include housing, but protect the natural
environment. Just one example, in one parish council, they are trying
to open up a plot of land. Department because they see the
value of young families moving into the village and the future will secure the future of the first
school in the community at large.
What is not helpful for them to be
caught in red tape and diminish the opportunity of the development
happening. A recent report said almost 1 12 businesses in
Northumberland cited the lack of housing as a barrier to business...
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Thank you, I thank my honourable friend for giving way, on the point about development corporations, the
about development corporations, the value that they brought to new towns
like Harlow, the fact that new towns are a great example of where you can
are a great example of where you can have affordable housing and green wedges so the environmental aspect as well.
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as well. It is true, they need not be this false dichotomy between what organisations do and protecting the
organisations do and protecting the environment. As I draw my remarks to
environment. As I draw my remarks to conclusion, rural Great Britain is calling out for development, we can
calling out for development, we can get this right, and this Bill is trying to deliver that by cutting
through the planning rules so they can be more infrastructure and more
homes.
There is no one left in rural communities, then the natural world will be without a steward to protect it.
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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker,
15:57
Gideon Amos MP (Taunton and Wellington, Liberal Democrat)
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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will add my thanks and reiterate to members of the Bill Committee,
and the clerks and the officials who have plenty to be getting on with. I
am grateful for the support of members on my side of the House, for
the amendments put forward. New clauses 22, and 114, open spacious
in new towns and other element...
Corporation developments. They form key proposals put forward by a number of Liberal Democrat members.
All of them urge the government to
go further when it comes to releasing land value for infrastructure that meets needs.
First, on the part five, today, generally, the compulsory purchase
process would have included major permissions of over 100 homes,
greater powers to acquire the land would be given to councils, use it
or lose it. I was delighted to hear that the government is taking this
idea, even though I gained a different impression in committee, even if the promise of more
conditionally improved orders will
not give them the same power that are would on that front.
In a
similar vein, wary of your strictures to stay on topic, I hope
you will briefly allow me to add my welcome to that of my honourable
friend, the member for Cheltenham, after following his Private Member's Bill, the government has agreed all
new homes will be fitted with solar panels as standard, the sunshine
bill is winning here. And bringing
Zero Emissions a step closer. Moving
back to our amendments, our
community led approach is about the essential infrastructure that people
want to see put in place ahead of the building of new homes, the
Bill's clause 104 would support that by supporting the building of social homes, it would reward landowners
with a fair value rather than inflated prices are from an imaginary planning permission that
no one has ever applied for, as set
out in subsection 2 a.
Our manifesto supports that, to that extent, and
the extent of the delivery of council houses, we are supportive to
ensure that specific types of schemes, in those cases, landowners are awarded fair compensation rather
than inflated prices. At my meeting with farmers on Friday, there is a
concern, possibly rumours of an idea
that farmers would lose land to natural England for their delivery
plans and would do so in return for only a reduced payment. I am not convinced this is what this does,
family farms have, of course, had a very tough time.
They provide food
for tables and they have been hit hard. Whiskey trade deals and the
last government, failed with the new inheritance tax, then the
underspend, and the closing of the farming initiative. Given all of this background, I hope the Minister
will confirm, in this debate, that
the proposals in clause 104 will extend no more widely than for the
public interest categories, which search social housing... Inserted by
the last government, in 2023 and inserted by them in two a, I would
be happy to meet the Minister but in light of the rumours, I hope you
would give reassurance that the
would give reassurance that the
small farms.
I should say, I expect the Secretary of state... On reading
the Secretary of state... On reading
it, our reading is that it states not the amount paid which under
not the amount paid which under
Homeless payments are made in
addition, quite rightly too. The new clause will remove, for how much
would have to be paid by taxpayers.
Basic pay is there a tackling convenience that would be an increase to the market value of the
property.
With the result, under
that new clause proposed, landowners will be paid the market value twice over for their property, under provisions only intended to
recompense. Because of that reduction, because of the reduction,
by paying over the odds, so much money in these kind of compulsory
purchases and money that will be paid by town and parish councils.
Because it would effectively cause attacks pose to make sky high
payments to landed interest, this is
The landowner as an inconvenience.
I
say having a home taken or a farm taken, or a business is absolute devastation, not inconvenience.
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Those are not the words I said at
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Those are not the words I said at all. What they said is that the occupiers lost payment is to reflect inconvenience. He misheard. I did
inconvenience. He misheard. I did not say that the farmers were... I
not say that the farmers were... I will refute that. Because of those payments under the new clause would clobber the taxpayer by paying
clobber the taxpayer by paying double the amount of the land that we cannot support it. On the contrary, we say people are fed up
contrary, we say people are fed up with money going to private
developers, leaving them with little
to show for their sacrifices and making the new construction crisis.
There are further areas with a maximum commercial value of land
maximum commercial value of land should not have to be paid by public and community bodies. The Member for Twickenham cinemas 88, 89 mean that value would not have to be paid, in
the cases were that has been applied
to sport a recreation. To dispose of
these would ensure that top dollar does not have to be paid with the Secretary of State satisfies that the proposal is for public good. In
which case a discounted price can be paid.
I honourable friend the Member for Henley on Thames, clause 22, a
compelling case justification, as
heard to compulsory purchase of land
paths and cycle paths. Knowing the location of Cayman parkway stations I do congratulate him on his proposal which would help his
constituents. -- Thames Parkway station.
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The business of compulsory purchase for cycling and paths is
something that local authorities could really do with. The Devon local cycling infrastructure plan
local cycling infrastructure plan that came out last December said that "Certain private sector development may come forward sooner,
development may come forward sooner, or later than anticipated. " Local authorities do not have any control over when they are able to put in these cycling paths. Would his amendment correct that?
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amendment correct that? My honourable friend, the Member for Henley-on-Thames amendment would
for Henley-on-Thames amendment would provide a much stronger justification to enable footpath and a cycle paths to be put in. It would
create more of A-level playing field, compulsory purchase already
field, compulsory purchase already in use for, already in use for...
Agreed my honourable friend.
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A very logical amendment, no logical reason why it should be rejected, that does not stop them so
rejected, that does not stop them so far. I hope they make and break the
habit of a lifetime. In our amendments, we are clear that communities should lead and should be in the driving seat, when it
be in the driving seat, when it
be in the driving seat, when it comes to the development. When people see the infrastructure they have been calling out for come forward, that drives more community
forward, that drives more community consent for the homes we need and the committees we want to build.
The infrastructure needs to be
infastructure for nature as well. Gardens, parks, meadows, our new clause 114 would charge develop and corporations and development
corporations and development corporations are discharge powers, money powers, under Conservative
money powers, under Conservative governments, just as they have under Labour governments and coalition governments. It is not always the
local authorities. Therefore it is
right for us to make sure that corporations discharge those duties as effectively as possible. If and when they build a new town is and major developments, as the
government wants to see, these must be with open spaces for nature.
They work with people and for our
environment. I remembered 151 require them to reform on the
environmental and climate duties on
a regular basis. When they were first created, supported by local government, without filling a single tree, as was confirmed yesterday by the honourable member for Letchworth
Garden City yesterday, their successes were emulated. They are still emulated by the best
governments, right up until today. Their vision was a radical one.
Bringing people and environments, Town & Country, nature and community closer together.
Those pioneers do
so to ensure healthy places to live in an objective in our new clause 6,
promoted by the Town and Country Planning's Association, would have been inserted in our own objectives.
Today we face a greater challenge. Save nature and community cohesion and consent. Before it is too late.
These amendments may not past today, but make no mistake, there are no
greater threats to our way of life than the breakdown of trust risks
destroying communities and the breakdown of our environment that is destroying nature.
These are the
challenges our amendments will tackle head-on.
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Once more, unto the breach. Today
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Once more, unto the breach. Today I rise to speak in amendment 68 in my name. I hope to find as much
my name. I hope to find as much common ground with Ministers as possible. I fully agree with the government that we need bold reform
government that we need bold reform of the planning system to tackle the housing crisis and that is what I believe even stronger reform of CPO
would deliver. Given that we now have a substantially more homes per
16:09
Chris Hinchliff MP (North East Hertfordshire, Labour)
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have a substantially more homes per capita than we did 50 years ago and yet at the same time house prices in
the UK rose by 3878%. The housing Minister was right when he
previously argued that housing supply is not a panacea for affordability. And with England sink 724,000 net traditional dwellings and new households in 2015. The
Deputy Prime Minister also arrived when she argued there was plenty of
housing already but there is not enough of the people who desperately need it.
The fundamental planning
reform we need is an end to the development led model which they
estimate is on track to deliver 5190 social rent homes, per year, despite these being the very properties we
need to reduce waiting lists and get families out of temporary
accommodation. The Madam Deputy Speaker, the housing crisis is one
of inequality. We must move away
from the reliance on the vested interest of private developers, whose priorities will never align with the public good. Amendment 68 is intended as a proposal for
beginning to do just that.
Half of England is currently owned by less than 1% of its population and
between 1995 and 2022, land values have risen by more than 600% to £7.2
trillion, amounting to more than 60%
of the U.K.'s net worth. Amendment 68 builds upon existing government proposals, to give councils of the land assembly powers are necessary
to acquire sites to meet local
housing needs in current use value, so do away with the speculative home value prices which put taxpayers money into wealthy landowners
pockets.
This would finally make it affordable for local authorities to deliver the new generation of
council homes that is the true solution to this nation's housing
Purchase powers with a more strategic approach to site identification and acquisition, we could not only increase the amount
of affordable housing built, but also achieve genuinely sustainable development, no longer holding whatever ill suited proposals developers choose to bring forward. The failings of our current
development led planning system are
large across my constituency. In the 10 years, from 2014 to 2024.
North
Hertfordshire and East Hertfordshire delivered a significant expansion in
housing supply, for 3973 and 7948 net additional dwellings, respectively. And what happened at a
local authority housing waiting list, in the same period, they rose.
1612, to 2449 in Hertfordshire and from 2005 to 2201 and East
Hertfordshire. There have been more
than enough for new homes in my local area to clear housing waiting lists, but the affordable homes we
need are simply not delivered, by a
profit driven model.
Over that same decade, in which housing supply and waiting list grew simultaneously, in northern East Hertfordshire, of all the facts stands out. Not a single
council house was built in either authority. It is a time for a genuine alternative to this farce. I urge the government to look closely at the proposals of this amendment
and to push onwards to creating a planning system that once again put
people before profit. Thank you.
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I'm going to speak to the amendments today, particularly around those relating to compulsory purchase hours. Amendment a new
purchase hours. Amendment a new
purchase hours. Amendment a new
purchase hours. Amendment a new clause 1 228. -- 128. Usually of a planning bill, there are proponents that do affect Scotland. Before I go into the detail of my concerns about the compulsory protocols. Honestly a
the compulsory protocols. Honestly a little bit of the context why this issue, compulsory purchase powers is
issue, compulsory purchase powers is exercising so many of my constituents.
I'm privileged to
16:13
John Lamont MP (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk, Conservative)
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represent the Scottish borders, the place that I call home. The Scottish borders is undoubtedly one of the most beautiful parts of the UK. But
it is under attack. The net zero agenda of this UK Labour government,
backed by the SNP in Edinburgh is causing huge concern to my
constituents. Massive pylons, solar farms, wind farms, battery storage units are ruining the Scottish
borders, as we know it was that the
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compulsory purchase powers are a key part to the delivery of many of these projects. I will happily give way. The
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I will happily give way. The particular point, when it comes to battery storage systems, it is not
battery storage systems, it is not just the Scottish borders it is areas such as mine, the West
areas such as mine, the West Midlands. I also support what he's saying, particularly around this. What feels like an encroachment and
What feels like an encroachment and an increasing amount of compulsory purchase powers, where is this going to end?
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I share my noble friend concerns about this. Ultimately it is about choices, the choice is this
choices, the choice is this government is making the choice that the Scottish Government are making about whether we protect our
about whether we protect our national environment, the rural communities that sustain food production and small communities,
production and small communities,
for many, many years are turning into an industrial wasteland. The use of these powers, in Scotland, affecting my constituency, in terms
of what this bill, what these courses will do.
The impact of many
on similar communities in England. My view is the Scottish borders, my constituents have got their fair share of these new developments. The
Scottish borders, we, the countryside is where we live. It is not some distant remote community, there is occasionally visited by
tourist from Edinburgh or London. It is a place we call home. Exercising
of compulsory purchase powers, whether in Scotland or in other parts of the UK must be exercised by
those powers, with appropriate checks and balances.
To protect our communities. I want to turn specifically to the amendment in my
name around compulsory purchase and
community benefits, related to that. When compulsory purchase takes place, we all know it is a difficult
and often devastating for those who
are directly affected. Too often we fail to recognise the impact, the wider community, especially when it
comes to new energy infrastructure. We have got to improve the relationship between those, between
those affected and those acquiring the land. It can be complex and it can be an intimidating premise.
The
amendment I have placed this bill, new clause 128 will require the Secretary of State to establish a
community benefits scheme, in relation to compulsory purchase, so
the equivalent of 20% of that sum of which compulsory purchases made is
paid into a community benefit fund. I'm very conscious that I so I shall not detain the House for much
longer. This new clause tonight. If there is any way of the Government
could approve the support, three community benefits, to those communities affected by these sorts
of development, this bill would be
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significantly improved. Honourable friends make an
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Honourable friends make an excellent speech about the choices, also this is about fairness. The reality is through the compulsory powers that instigated within part five is disregarding any value over
five is disregarding any value over and above agricultural value. This isn't an issue of fairness, at all,
isn't an issue of fairness, at all, for those landowners who are having their land compulsory acquired. If the amendment was to be accepted by my honourable friends name, that 20%
my honourable friends name, that 20%
is of course of the agricultural value, stimulated by what the government is intending to do, rather than the market value and therefore what is going into that
therefore what is going into that benefit scheme is actually a less than would it not be better if the government are advocating market value for compulsory purchase, not
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value for compulsory purchase, not I agree with him, I'm sure that
he will speak to these points later. We should be protecting the market
value, and not doing anything to interfere with the market, not least
because... To improve the community benefit fund, which would benefit
local residents. By improving this Bill, it would be better for people
and local communities that live in revoke's, like those in the Scottish
borders. The Labour government has you turned a lot over the last few
months, I hope they will use this opportunity to listen to members across the House to protect our beautiful environment, protect
nature and to better for rural communities.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you, it is an honour to raise to speak in this debate moved
16:18
Munira Wilson MP (Twickenham, Liberal Democrat)
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raise to speak in this debate moved three amendments in my name. Amendments 88 and 89, relating to
hopefully, which go together, and new clause 107, relating to the
disposal of public land. 88 and 89 are linked and represent a simple but important change. They extend
the circumstances under which value might be disregarded in the event of
a compulsory purchase order and I
welcome the important changes in this Bill to ensure that, for the
purpose of building more affordable homes, ministers have brought forward measures to reform the CPO
process so that hope value no longer
overinflated land prices.
However, I believe that a prime opportunity has been missed. Amendments 88 and 89
seek to include recreational
facilities in these provisions when an acquiring authority, for example in Local Authority, is using a compulsory purchase order to acquire
land for use as exports recreational facility by ensuring hope value will
not be applied, making the cost more affordable and helping to boost
additional grassroots sports provisions in communities up and
down the country. We are incredibly fortunate in Twickenham, the Hamptons, St Margaret's and Luton,
that we have a thriving grassroots sports scene, from football to cricket, rugby, to hockey, tennis
and much more.
Girls and women's football is one example of continued
growth in the grassroots sport. My own daughter plays for the growing
number of girls teams. Twickenham boasts over 300 girls and have 40 women. They are at the point of
turning more away because they simply cannot get the picture space
to train and play matches. This affects many clubs across the country and across the London
Borough. At the same time, we have
the scandal of the playing fields in Teddington lying derelict for over a
decade.
With successive developers paying over the odds for the site,
only to be prevented from developing the site which has numerous
protections attached. The brilliant community, a community group in my
constituency, who has been a tireless campaigner for grassroots sports, has bid for the site to
bring it back into communities. The current owner has given notice that
he wants to sell, but has not engaged with the foundation. Trying
to recoup a high purchase price for this precious and well protected
site does not look feasible.
Extending the provisions in this Bill to playing fields come to allow
hopefully to be disregarded would potentially allow sites such as this
to be acquired by the Local Authority or another public body. Richmond Council, like many others,
is hardly awash with cash. But simply having the provision in law
would provide the average for community groups when they have to
negotiate. As we have seen. I am certain that this park is not the
only example where this is happening, I was disappointed by the response to these amendments at
committee, which, with all due respect, was contradictory.
He rejected this amendment that on the
basis that whilst affordable housing, education and health are
types of public sector led development when the public benefits facilitated through hopefully can be
facilitated through hopefully can be
done with trouble, -- hope value can
be demonstrable, they can be less compelling for sporting facilities.
I say, sport and physical activity are critical to physical and mental
health. He said that health is an important public benefit for the
purposes of disregarding hope value.
Just yesterday, ministers stated, we are committed to supporting the growth of grassroots sport. The Secretary of State made a brilliant speech last night at an event that
many members attended to launch the lionesses campaign to defend the
European crown. She was passionate about the importance of grassroots sport and extending opportunity to everyone. She announced £100 million
investment, which is welcome. My
amendments help ministers to achieve this important objective of expanding sports and recreation grounds without costing them a
penny.
The amendment does not encroach on the principle that the
use of the CPO powers must be proportionate and justified, given that ministers have strongly and
correctly championed the growth of a
grassroots support across the UK as being in the public interest. The amendment would apply solely to land
which is already sports field or recreational, where there is local need for the sports and recreational facility. And which is at risk of
loss to speculative department. It is entirely proportionate and justified in the public interest
that the CPO powers and the removal
of hope value should apply.
It defies all logic that ministers have not embraced the change and continue to oppose it, I look forward to
hearing further explanation, I hope he will commit to engaging further
on this issue, as this Bill moves into the other place, and meet me to
discuss rather than dismissing it. Now, turning to new clause 107, in
my name. There is cross-party consensus on the need for more housing across our country. On these
benches, we have a strong commitment to delivering desperately needed social housing, it was disappointing
to see Labour amendments -- members vote against it last night.
1
Important Way to secure the sites for the housing is when public
bodies dispose of land and buildings. In constituencies like
mine, with a Royal Park, a River and other important protected parks and spaces, site very few and far
between, yet I see cases in my inbox of families on the social housing
waiting list with little hope of
getting out of overcrowded and unsuitable accommodation. I am proud that Richmond Council has
consistently sought to re-purpose
cell below market value sites that it owns but does not need to provide
more social homes.
The council has done this, despite the immense pressures on local government
funding, but sadly, other public bodies do not feel they are able to,
whether it is the Ministry of Defense, a key public service like Metropolitan Police, or an arm's-
length body like NHS England. They all want to achieve as high a price
they can when selling assets they do not need, in order to invest into frontline public services. That is a
laudable and important aim but it does price social housing providers and other public service providers
out of the market whilst losing assets from the public sector
balance sheet.
Clause 107 fills in the gaps in the existing patchwork of legislation and regulation that
is somewhat piecemeal and nor is it properly used to allow all Public
Sector Bodies to sell assets below market value for public benefit.
Whether that is for social housing or much-needed infrastructure like
health facilities. Not only would it extend the provision to all public bodies, it would go further still
and imposing a duty on public bodies to at least consider disposing of
assets for public good.
This is a
wide-ranging clause that builds on my successful campaign in the last Parliament when I worked with a
succession of Conservative housing ministers to secure change in the Levelling-Up and Regeneration Bill. That included police authorities and
the existing provisions to sell public assets below market value for
public good. My campaign was born out of frustration that Teddington police station lies derelict in my
constituency. Local housing
association and a GP surgery are desperate to obtain the site to expand and provide state-of-the-art GP facilities on the ground floor
and social housing on the floors above.
This government thinks that
all members of the public are blockers, I can tell the Minister that the Teddington community are
right behind my campaign and we will fight tooth and nail to ensure that
when the Met puts the site on the market, we can get the housing and GP surgery that our community needs
at a reasonable price, which will not be as high as what private developers can offer. I secured the
herself has recently said that surplus land is a huge, untapped
resource that could create opportunities for the next generation.
I welcome the news in
March that Network Rail would set up
a property company to use surplus land for House building. There is so much more than just Network Rail land but we need the legislative basis for public sector disposals
and we need the incentive to achieve the sales. I do not blame the Met
Commissioner for wanting to get the top dollar. Especially when we read
about the cuts he is having to make to frontline policing and the intransigence of the Treasury to
fund the policing.
So, I say, this
is robbing Peter to pay Paul. We need a duty on all public bodies and incentives for them to re-purpose or
sell assets for community good. We can achieve the homes and public services our country needs without
ripping up our Green Belt and precious open spaces but by thinking
creatively about how we re-purpose existing sites, including those already owned by the taxpayer. I
look forward to hearing the Minister's response.
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Thank you, I rise to speak to new clause 127 and amendment 153, both
of which are in my name. Compulsory Purchase Order is highly emotive and
Purchase Order is highly emotive and highly controversial. Indeed, much of yesterday's debate was taken up discussing precisely those CPO
16:29
Robbie Moore MP (Keighley and Ilkley, Conservative)
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discussing precisely those CPO powers that have been granted to natural England and local
authorities in this Bill. The fact that, under this Bill can a farmer
in Keighley, in my constituency, can be told how to use his land as a
result of a development in Kent is utter madness. This is exactly what
the intent of this Bill is, because no matter where you might own land,
you might be at the detriment of a scheme that is taking place elsewhere.
That is exactly what the
government's intent is, through these additional powers. Give
Natural England, an organisation which I huge deaf have huge
frustration with, which there I say, is not accountable in the most robust of circumstances by a
Minister. Yet the government wants to give Natural England more power
to give Natural England more power
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I'm sure frustrations with
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I'm sure frustrations with natural England. This is a bit strange. We have a government that
strange. We have a government that says it wants to reduce the amount of quangos, it has reduced them by one, introduced to 27. Until we have
them giving more powers at an unelected quango, actually risks
unelected quango, actually risks doing a further untold damage to our green fields, open spaces and farmland.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
farmland. That is exactly why I'm so frustrated by the intent of this
frustrated by the intent of this government's bill. That is exactly what is doing by giving natural
England are more powers, comport compulsory purchase powers, more funds for the environment to deliver a and the ability to be able to
a and the ability to be able to scrutinise and set the path for
using a management to dictate to landowners and how their land, their
farm may be utilised.
That is wrong, especially when, as they say, a farmer, farming in my constituency
of Keighley could be subject to a CPO, as a result of the development
elsewhere in the country. However,
whilst the government and I absolutely disagree on the right and the use of CPO. I really do struggle
with the expansion of section 40 K orders on CPOs. To discount hope a
orders on CPOs. To discount hope a
value of AEC's property. 40 A. If the state chooses to use its powers to confiscate property of a law- abiding person and then they must
stipulate how that land must be used and then tell the land owner how much they are entitled to receive
much they are entitled to receive
from the state.
It is in my view are
absolute theft. It is not a racket,
it is not unfair. It is simply the true market value of the property. That is why it fundamentally I
disagree with the purpose of this bill that is the government
stipulating that hopefully must be up and above the valley paid. It
should not be the Lord that decides the value. It should be down to negotiation and it should be down to
the market that decides. Comes onto
the market that decides.
Comes onto
Because whilst I admire the Government's aspirations are to increase development, this bill is fundamentally flawed, on the issue of fairness, because it is taking
away the property rights of landowners. Those are very landowners that would have been encouraged by their local authorities to be zoned as part of a
local plan and encourage through a process for the land to be zoned for
employment use, whatever it may be be. As a result as a result of this
legislation the local authority or the natural England will have the ability to compulsorily require
their land, not at market value, but I will give way to the Minister.
The
powers that he is referring to and this amendment seeks to remove. I will speak on that in more detail.
Settled in the Levelling Up and Regeneration Bill. Does the honourable member realise he voted for that bill, he voted for those
**** Possible New Speaker ****
powers. The Government is absolutely going away beyond that, in giving more power to local authorities,
more power to local authorities, indeed natural England and a Natural England. If the Minister has gone and spoken to anyone in the
and spoken to anyone in the agriculture world will realise that the level of trust, with natural England is shocked and yet, the
England is shocked and yet, the government is giving natural England a more powers to compulsorily
a more powers to compulsorily require and then dictate to our farmers, tell owners and how their land, if they choose to use these
land, if they choose to use these compulsory powers is to be managed.
That is something I'm not favourable
That is something I'm not favourable for, which is why my new clause 127
for, which is why my new clause 127 153 is something I would urge them to consider. Despite having been put
to consider. Despite having been put forward, through the committee stage, it wasn't something that the
government give due consideration to. Therefore I would urge the government to rethink its position on this. Instead of what section 14
A orders represent. What section 14
A orders represent is an intent to run roughshod over our landowners.
We can debate this approach, but we must start by calling it out for
what it is. This act extends the 14 A powers and parish councils, to natural England and applies the cut
valuation of occupies loss, a
separate payment limit to disrupt the occupier, not the loss of an
asset. That is exactly why I wholeheartedly support new clause
42, in the name of the official opposition. That increases at the occupies loss payment, from two. 5%
to 5., from two.
5 to 7. 5% of
losses paid for that land. I have a frustration, because the valuation
would be assessed on the agricultural value, not a market value.
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I'm grateful he is making an excellent speech was that Dessie
excellent speech was that Dessie agree that one of the flaws with this bill which his amendment tends to address is over reaches. To
to address is over reaches. To attack property rights. Not only does it interfere with the market, but it takes away key aspects and
but it takes away key aspects and democratic accountability. That is why so many of our constituents
across the UK are so concerned about
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what this bill attempts to do. I thank my noble friend for that intervention and that is exactly why I urge the government, as I have
I urge the government, as I have done, throughout the course of this bill and I know has been raised at committee stage, they must realise the huge level of disenfranchisement
the huge level of disenfranchisement and landowners are having with this intent of this bill. This is not introducing fairness into the system. It is not introducing an
system.
It is not introducing an ability for the state to pay what the market value should be attributed to anything that is
compulsory required. That is absolutely why I do not support this
bill. And will be proud to vote against it, when it comes to third reading. I will give way.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The honourable gentleman giving way one of the things he voted for
way one of the things he voted for in his previous government. Is there no limit on the amount of taxpayers
no limit on the amount of taxpayers money the gifted landowners so that
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money the gifted landowners so that they can build social housing and the other inks we need? We have the Liberal Democrats setting up the position. It is a
setting up the position. It is a good they are doing that. I fundamentally believe that if you
fundamentally believe that if you own land and the state is then a seizing control of it, through compulsory purchase powers and that
it is absolutely right that that
it is absolutely right that that farmer should be rewarded with a market value, not disregarded it to agricultural value.
I know the Lib Dems have set out the position that they fully support the ability of
they fully support the ability of just agricultural value being paid,
not really when the land is worth market value. I hope farmers absolutely understand the Liberal Democrats position to disregard that
value. I also want to understand whether or not the government has undertaken any impact assessment on the
valuation office. I fear that as we go forward, through the compulsory
purchase process. There will be many a challenge, quite rightly by landowners agents, valuers acting on behalf of those landowners to
understand the true value of their land.
I fear that the valuation
office will not be able to cope with the level of scrutiny that quite rightly will be brought forward, to
the government's position and I will
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give way to my honourable friend. , honourable friend has really set out some of the challenges that we
out some of the challenges that we face, when it comes to this piece of legislation and the farming
legislation and the farming community. As it stands, part five proposes a significant compulsory purchase powers to authorities, with no definition or limits whatsoever.
no definition or limits whatsoever. All of this communities comes on top of APR, BPR, inheritance tax, increased National Insurance, for
increased National Insurance, for employers.
What is it about the farming community that this
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government does not like. That adjusted bills onto the very
point that so much uncertainty has been put in our farming community,
not as a result of adjusted this bill, but all of the additional pressures that have been brought forward. The family farm tax, increases in overheads, that are
increases in overheads, that are hitting cash flow this year. That is
why new clause 127 and I amendment
of the 153 and indeed, new clause 42, that has been put forward by the official Frontbench are so important
to be considered.
It is frustrating that the government are just
Out, not willing to consider them, because these amendments have been put forward in the best interests of our farming community, our
landowners. So that the state does not have the control that this government is willing to give it. And I urge the government to
consider these very practical, sensible amendments, to this bill.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you. I am happy to speak in
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you. I am happy to speak in support of the numbered 151, tabled from Taunton and Wellington. Our planning system needs reform. Sadly the approach of the government is
the approach of the government is seeking to take on this bill is all wrong and it desperately needs amending. This amendment compels the Secretary of State to produce a
Secretary of State to produce a report that addresses a key principle of my concern, the current housebuilding regime, that is good
housebuilding regime, that is good design.
I am pleased that in drafting the initial cause, the government have recognised that design goes hand-in-hand with
design goes hand-in-hand with sustainable development. We need to see evidence that the houses be getting actually been described and
16:41
Steff Aquarone MP (North Norfolk, Liberal Democrat)
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getting actually been described and
built better if we are to be confident, we are not just getting more the same from the big developers. No one has ever told me
that they want more energy inefficient, chocolate box homes, deep in a rabbit warren Estates, built to maximise developer profit.
What we have seen in North Norfolk
is homeowners telling us they do not like, they cannot afford, they queue up to buy because there is no other option. I was horrified recently to find that covenants of input on a
whole estate banning branded vehicles from parking on private driveways.
They might as well have
marketed them as for Richard second home owners only. This is how we
design the future. Accepting the provisions of the sunshine bill
brought forward by my honourable friend friend Joe Cheltenham by dating solar panels on bills.
dating solar panels on bills.
Sometimes it can see that politicians come from this position. I'm particularly pleased the government has come to share the Lib
Dems view that solar panels on new-
Dems view that solar panels on new-
It is not just about It is not just about the It is not just about the homes themselves, good design is also about how and where we build new houses.
People are growing tired, rightly of estates that are designed
around car use, rather than public transport or walking and cycling at the heart of the design. We can encourage more people to walk or use public transport, if we design
developments in a way that makes it easy and attractive to do just that.
When we use scheme designed to encourage walking and cycling rather than car use, assess the public transport rather than car parts, recent take people to town centres
rather than bypasses, we see the benefit right across society.
Due to pressure on health services, better natural environment and in a more cohesive, resilient communities.
That will also support the other key aims of the amendment will have,
which is tackling the climate emergency. More development means fewer fossil powered cars are on the road, it will be better for the
I do not think the people in North Norfolk are unreasonable to ask the
developments to be affordable to buy or rent, sustainable and low cost to heat and power and to feel connected to communities and not a burden of them.
My constituents want to end
the housing crisis but they do not want it done by unaccountable top- down targets. They want a real design led approach to planning structure and development and I hope
**** Possible New Speaker ****
the government sees our proposals to achieve that and supports them today. Thank you. In Stratford-upon-Avon
we have seen the consequences without infrastructure to match. It
without infrastructure to match. It is such a missed opportunity. The government is repeating the same top-down developer ledge approach, sidelining communities, undermining
16:44
Manuela Perteghella MP (Stratford-on-Avon, Liberal Democrat)
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sidelining communities, undermining local plans and tackling local
councillors out of key decisions. I rise to talk in some of these amendments. The current system often sees a vital infrastructure lagging not been delivered fully after the
houses have been occupied. That is because the infrastructure is left
to develop and feasibility studies and variations of conditions. We need a planning system that puts
people in places first. This includes high quality, active down
infrastructure. We are lacking Stratford-upon-Avon much cherished in a way, a five-mile second
in a way, a five-mile second
bridleway.
We need cycling and pedestrian routes in our towns, for children and young people to travel
to school safely. For families to access services, reducing car
journeys and keeping fit and healthy. In rural areas, a group is
campaigning towards ambitious cycling roads, a long disused
railway. These will link villages to the towns of Stratford and also my
constituency and further afield to
Evesham. After, beyond the feasibility studies, the fragmentation of land ownership is
an issue. That's what I support new clause 22, proposed by honourable friend the Henley and Thame.
Strengthening powers for active
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travel routes. Grateful it sounds like quite a
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Grateful it sounds like quite a similar example to the otter trim which would link Fenton to the King
School at Ottery St Mary. Does she agree that these new active travel pass will label people to get school
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pass will label people to get school We need to ensure that the new
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We need to ensure that the new generation of young people, are able
generation of young people, are able to cycle, reducing carbon emissions in towns, we need high quality
in towns, we need high quality cycling infrastructure.
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cycling infrastructure. I thank the honourable lady for
her speech, she is making a principled speech, I wonder if she could explain to the House why she
does not think the current local plan regime is inadequate -- adequate enough to ensure we have
travel routes, rather than taking
the attitude to bring CPO into areas
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such as this, which would be seen as regressive to people's rights. I think the shadow Minister for
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I think the shadow Minister for the question. The problem we have, I take the case of the disused
take the case of the disused railway, which is now... It is not in public ownership any more, and it
in public ownership any more, and it is fragmented, and incidental green space, this is not used by
space, this is not used by landowners at all, if we could
landowners at all, if we could compulsory scum obviously reward and compensate, we could have high
compensate, we could have high quality infrastructure that would
quality infrastructure that would link up villages so that people can use it for services, GP
appointments, schools and so on, and
it is all fruit away -- off road, away from the gridlocked roads.
The
development must come and that is why I support the new clause 114,
tabled by my colleague, which would ensure that development... The development corporations include
green space provision in all new developments, green spaces are not
in luxury, they are essential for mental health, biodiversity, wildlife, flood prevention and
community cohesion. Lack of green spaces and recreational facilities
are fundamental for the developments in sports and youth opportunities.
Therefore, I support amendments 88 and 89 by my honourable friend.
We
also need measurable action on climate. Corporations have been
underpowered, yet these bills
guarantee they deliver in line with the climate targets. That is why amendment one one -- 151 so
important. It will ensure a report is published on whether corporations
are meeting their legal duties on sustainable development and climate change. We need transparency and
accountability built into the
system. Finally, we need new wants that our affordable and built to high standards, many families and
young people are priced out of the community.
It is not enough to build
houses, we need the right tools in
the right places. A reconnection of facilities, sports facilities that create community. I urge the
government to take this opportunity to deliver a planning system which
is fair, sustainable and community led. Thank you.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you, it is a pleasure to rise to respond to what has been a
rise to respond to what has been a thoughtful and well informed debate.
thoughtful and well informed debate. I quote shadow Minister, it is groundbreaking, I thank members who
groundbreaking, I thank members who have participated this afternoon for their contributions and can I take the opportunity to thank the shadow
the opportunity to thank the shadow Minister and the Liberal Democrat spokesperson for their robust but civil and fair approach to the
civil and fair approach to the engagement and scrutiny of the Bill.
In the time I have available, I want
In the time I have available, I want to respond to the key amendments and
to respond to the key amendments and arguments made this afternoon. The government is clear that significantly boosting housing
significantly boosting housing supply requires renewed focus on
communities across England. And corporations are important vehicles for delivering these projects. The
Bill create a clearer, more flexible and robust framework to ensure they
can operate. Whilst there is clearly widespread support across the House for the use of corporations where
appropriate, members have been
proposed and I want to trust --
touch briefly to include provision.
The government agrees that this must
include provision for green space
16:52
Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)
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which includes provisions for supporting climate mitigation and
supporting climate mitigation and adaptation and by diversity. We do not believe this amendment is necessary to deliver on these objectives, corporations have a
strong track record, providing
suitable green space, each corporation has provided almost 15
corporation has provided almost 15 They are already subject to National
Planning Policy's including green instructor, this means that where they take on local powers, planning
they take on local powers, planning decisions might be informed by the framework which on the members are
aware is a material consideration.
As the House will know, the NPPF
sets out policies to encourage the
provision of green infrastructure. An overall strategy for the scale, quality and design places. Making sufficient provision for the
enhancement of the environment. It also sets out any policies should be
based on robust assessment of a need
for open space, sport and recreation facilities and opportunities for new provision. It is the government view
that the duty proposed in this amendment might constrain some corporations, for example, where
they designated specifically for the redevelopment of small spaces.
When
it comes to the stewardship, each corporation has a designated oversight authority, either the
sector to come all males or local
authorities, whilst I commend the honourable and for highlighting, I
hope you will withdraw. Turning to the reforms to compulsory purchase
order, designed to improve the CPO process and allow compensation rules
to allow effective London Assembly. Let me respond to new clause 127,
amendment 153, which seeks to repeal
section 14 of the competition act 1961.
Let us be clear what these
members propose, to repeal the power
introduced by the last government, in which he voted for, the specific piece of legislation, which allows
acquiring authorities to take forward certain types of scheme, and
pay a reduced value for land where it will deliver significant
benefits. His amendment does not seek to limit the extension of the power, as proposed in the Bill, to
parish and county councils the use of powers as they apply to natural
England, it seeks to repeal the power...
The piece of legislation that he voted for, frankly
embarrassing to listen to him try to explain that U-turn. To support the
delivery of housing and infrastructure that this country needs, we must make better use of
underutilised land in the country. We know local authorities share the
objective but their plans are frustrated by unrealistic compensation expectations. This can
result in significant amounts of... I will give way in a second. This
can result in significant amounts of land remaining unused and overpriced with a result that building homes,
transport links and schools becomes
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roughly high. In the debate today, the opposition benches defended the
opposition benches defended the principle of paying landowners an uplift from a current news value to the value compared to that land
the value compared to that land would have if it had planning permission. Given Winston Churchill said such increments land are
said such increments land are positively detrimental to the general public, are they not
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attacking their own best traditions? I would agree with the honourable
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I would agree with the honourable gentleman, I think it is a shame that the party opposite has she
that the party opposite has she merely -- have seemingly changed their view, I think that many of the
their view, I think that many of the provisions in the Levelling-Up and Regeneration Bill were some of the best introduced by the previous
best introduced by the previous government. There is not in the record of the previous government that members should feel embarrassed
about.
These powers are not one of them. Far from removing the power,
we want acquiring authorities to use this power and we cannot possibly
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accept the amendment. The Conservative members
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The Conservative members suggested that market value will not be paid for such land. With the
be paid for such land. With the
Minister not confirm that the amount paid is the market value for existing use of the land?
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existing use of the land? He tempts me to stray beyond the specific measures in this Bill and
specific measures in this Bill and how the power can be used. And I think that power... We are clear, we
should guidance about the power.
That leaves me -- leads me onto amendments 89 which seeks to expand
amendments 89 which seeks to expand the power. Sympathetic as I am the more frequent removal of value, the
use of the relevant power must be proportionate and justified in the public interest so it does not fall
foul of article 1 of the European Convention on human rights.
Seeking
to expand the use of that power and applied more widely is problematic
for that reason and I cannot accept either amendment on that basis. I want to make it clear, use of the
direction power can be sought on mixed use schemes that include
sports or recreational uses but they must be within those schemes, education provision, health
provision or affordable housing, to justify the use of the power within public interest. On that specific
point, and to respond to the spokesperson, I can confirm that clause 104 does not extend the power
to other uses or social objectives, merely it enables parish town
councils to make use of the existing power.
I will not give way any more.
I want to bring the remarks to a close. There is a statement follow after the proceedings in this bill
have completed. I want to clause 2
turn to new clause 85. To be clear, lost payment of an amount of
compensation paid to eligible claimants to reflect and recognise the inconvenience and disruption
caused by CPOs, they are an additional payment to compensation
claim above and the land, for the
market value of land.
The amendment would allow claimants to claim compensation for the market value
twice and, as a result, they would have over conversation. This would
be disproportionate. This would run counter to the established principle
of equivalence in conversation where a person subject to compulsory purchase order should be left no
better or worse off in financial terms after an acquisition as they were before. On that basis, cannot accept the amendment. I want to
accept the amendment. I want to
touch briefly on a new clause 42, in the name of the shadow Minister, his amendment seeks to introduce a
change to the regime under the land.
It would increase the occupiers of buildings subject to ACPO would be entitled to and placed them on 14.
As we discussed in committee, the Bill ready achieves, in part, what
the honourable gentleman is seeking through this amendment, it increases
the lost payment conversation due to
occupiers of buildings and land that this amendment seeks to. The purpose is to reflect the inconvenience caused by panel -- compulsory
purchase order. Rather than invest owners who bear the greater burden.
They are the ones who have to close or relocate businesses.
Lost payment of eight separate claim for
compensation make loss payments are
a separate claim. To claim a higher amount and landowners to claim a
lower amount. This rebalancing of compensation, in favour of occupiers, is the right approach and
will benefit, for example, groups
such as tenant farmers. On that basis, we cannot accept the amendment and I request that it is
amendment and I request that it is
withdrawn. Lastly, the member made a case for greater support for active
travel schemes to be considered.
We are keen to support local authorities to use CPO powers in the
public interest and have published guidance on the CPO prices. Including advice on how they can
demonstrate a compelling case in the public interest. We will also publish updated guidance to reflect
the reforms. In addition, CPO powers
can already be used for active travel orders and can be executed by
local authorities as part of the functions, to assist authorities in
deploying these powers more effectively, Active Travel England, which is an executive agency sponsored by the Department for
Transport, are developing guidance to support Local Authority's in the
delivery.
These will be published in consultation with local authorities
in due course, I think... Let's examine the details when it is
published. Given the guidance that already exists, further guidance set
to be published, I believe the
To conclude the amendments are either unnecessary or detrimental to the objectives of the bill. More widely in other parts of the bill
and areas of this bill, where we have received reports that continue to reflect on whether the
legislation can be strengthened and improved further.
When it comes to corporations and compulsory purchase
order reforms, we think the
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committee members are robust and on this basis the whole House and get behind the bill this afternoon. The question is that new clause
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The question is that new clause
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The question is that new clause 22. A second time? As As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye". Of the contrary, "No". Division, clear the
The The question The question is The question is that The question is that new The question is that new clause The question is that new clause 20 to be read a second time? As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye". Of
the contrary, "No".
The tellers for
the contrary, "No". The tellers for
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Order. Order. Order.
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Order. Order. Isa to the right 73. Nose to the
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Isa to the right 73. Nose to the The Ayes have it to the right 73,
The Ayes have it to the right 73, the Noes have it to the left 312. The Noes have it have it, the Noes
The Noes have it have it, the Noes have it have it. On lock. New clause 85 has been selected for separate
85 has been selected for separate decision. I called Kevin Hollinrake
decision. I called Kevin Hollinrake to move the new clause formally.
The
question is that the new clause 85 be read a second time. As many as
are of that opinion, say, "Aye". Of the contrary, "No". Division. Clear
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The
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The question The question is The question is new The question is new clause The question is new clause 85 period a second time. As many are of
period a second time. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye", and of the contrary, "No". The Tellers for the Ayes, James Wild and Richard Holden,
Ayes, James Wild and Richard Holden,
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Lock Lock the Lock the doors!
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Order, Order, order.
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Order, order. The Ayes to the right, 107, the
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The Ayes to the right, 107, the
Noes to the left, 314.
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Noes to the left, 314. The Ayes to the right, 107, the Noes to the left, 314. The Noes have
Noes to the left, 314. The Noes have New clause 114 has been selected for
New clause 114 has been selected for separate decision, I call Gideon Amos to move new clause 114 formally.
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Formally. Corporations to provide green
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spaces. The question is that new clause
114 be read a second time. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye", and
are of that opinion say, "Aye", and of the contrary, "No". Division,
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The The question The question is
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The question is as The question is as on The question is as on the The question is as on the Order Paper. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye", and of the contrary,
say, "Aye", and of the contrary, "No". Tellers for the Ayes, Testament, Tellers for the Noes,
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Lock Lock the Lock the door.
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Investigate Investigate the Investigate the calls Investigate the calls for Investigate the calls for the
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Order, Order, order.
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Order, order.
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Order, order. The ayes to the right 78, nose
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The ayes to the right 78, nose left 309. -- The noes to the left
309.
309.
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309. The noes have it. Unlock. With
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The noes have it. Unlock. With the leave of the House I should put a single question on government amendments 120 and 121. I call the
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amendments 120 and 121. I call the Minister to move amendment 120 and 121 formally. Moved formally. The question is that government
amendments 120 and 121 be made. As many as are of that opinion, say,
"Aye", of the contrary, "No". The
Consideration completed. Third Kings Consent. Prince of Wales cap
SEN. Minister to move, third reading. -- Consent.
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I beg to move that the bill be
read as 1/3 time. It has been a privilege to take this crucial piece of legislation through the House.
of legislation through the House.
The Minister. I thank The Minister. I thank the The Minister. I thank the record ready for the passage of the bill and the bill team for the litigious
and the bill team for the litigious efforts over many months. My
consistently excellent private offers including my brilliant
offers including my brilliant private sector.
The clerks, chairs and counsel for facilitating the progress and the witnesses forgive evidence and the honourable members
from across the House who provided valuable input today and that
previous stages. This landmark bill
17:48
Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)
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will get Britain building again, unleash economic growth and deliver on the promise of national renewal. It is critical in helping the
It is critical in helping the government to achieve the ambitious milestone of building 1.5 million
milestone of building 1.5 million
safe and decent homes in this Parliament, making planning decisions on at least 115 major infrastructure projects and supporting the Clean Power 2030
supporting the Clean Power 2030 target and transporting Britain into a clean energy superpower. There will be five key objectives with a faster and more certain consenting
faster and more certain consenting process for nationally significant infrastructure projects which is a
infrastructure projects which is a crucial part of the bill.
Upgrading the economic infrastructure from electricity networks, clean energy
electricity networks, clean energy sources, public transport links is
essential to basic services and the growing economy. The bill makes a
number of changes, ensuring national policy statements are kept up-to- date and providing for a reflective amendment process for the government can make fast changes on minor
policy changes are legal impacts that must be factored into national
policy statements. Second, a more strategic approach that will unlock
a win-win for nature and the environment.
As we debated at length
yesterday, the status quo is not working. It is not working for
development and, let's be clear, that is because constraints like
nutrient issues are disincentivising planning applications across the
country and that's impacting house builders, particularly small- and
medium size. The status quo is not working for the environment because,
all too often, the state-by-state process of assessment and meeting obligations is not driving recovery.
Instead of that status quo, we want to take forward a new strategic
approach across wider geographies ensuring Natural England bring forward plans that go beyond offsetting harm to driving nature
recovery.
We want to improve
certainty and decision making in the planning system. There has been
mandatory training for local
councillors and the localisation of fees to make sure local planning authorities which have been hard- pressed, we know, in recent years can set their own fees now and make
sure the burden they face and the applications can be covered, get
again welcome by the host. We've taken the decision to introduce a
national scheme and I appreciate it is controversial but we think it's a necessary means of introducing more
certainty and clarity into the decision-making process and we have lots of technical consultation on
the measure and I would urge honourable members from across the
House to engage with the detail of the technical consultation.
I think when they do so, they would understand that the category of
planning applications should be taken and delegated to expert local planning officers but on all major
controversial development, with the
agreement of the relevant chair of the committee Andy Lee planning officer in the authority, the most serious and controversial
applications will always come from elected members, as should be the
case when they take their place. We debated this today and there are changes to development corporations
which are going to play an essential role in driving the delivery of large-scale communities across the
country and we have discussed CPO
powers because we want them to include an important CPO reform passed by the previous government
which I'm sad to hear today that
opposition benches regret passing.
The shadow secretary of state said it was a mistake. We think those
powers are useful and want to see the application taken forward. The bill makes targeted changes to those
powers to be sure they can be used by parish and county councils and when it comes to nature recovery and
the delivery and reduction of environmental delivery plans by
Natural England in certain circumstances. The bill introduces
new mechanisms to cross boundaries.
We must be planning on a larger than local scale to get the best outcomes.
The bill introduces new
special development strategies which are not big local plans but high- level strategies for different subregions of the country to come
together and decide that in cooperation the most appropriate
places for housing growth are the best way for infrastructure to be delivered across those areas and, in
response to the feedback, which may targeted changes throughout the bill committee, removing statutory pre-
consultation requirements in relation to the resume, and we know
this is driving the outcomes.
There are targeted improvements to the
restoration fund and there is a new funding mechanism for statutory consultees. When it comes to
delivering new homes and critical
The country and the British people. We can and must do things differently and this build will enable us to do so. It is
transformative and will fundamentally change how we build things in this country and will help us to tackle the housing crisis and living standards in every part of the country. This government was
elected on the promise of change and we are determined to deliver it and through these measures we will do
just that.
I wish the Baroness Andy noble Lord all the best in the other
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place and I commend this bill to the House. The question is that the bill be
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The question is that the bill be
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The question is that the bill be read as 1/3 time. -- At third time.
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read as 1/3 time. -- At third time. I thank the Minister for all of his hard work and the incredibly
his hard work and the incredibly decent and polite manner. I thank him and his team for the work and my shadow team, who are doing a
17:53
Kevin Hollinrake MP (Thirsk and Malton, Conservative)
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shadow team, who are doing a fantastic job on the detail and the line by line scrutiny and the other
Frontbench teams and the committees, the clerks, honourable and right honourable members across the House
for their contributions. We are told the bill is about accelerating housebuilding and unleashing growth
and meeting a national target of 1.5 million homes in this Parliament, in England alone. Those aims on the
face of it are worthy but what price are we prepared to pay for Deputy
Prime Minister's ambition? She is ambitious.
Make no mistake, what is being proposed could fundamentally
and irrevocably alter the character of towns and villages and the green
and pleasant land that makes Britain what it is. This is not an attack on
new homes. I'm unashamedly pro-
business and pro-development, unlike the right honourable lady and gentleman and half the Cabinet, and
they have never objected to this in
my constituency but, let me be clear, we need homes and we need homes for first-time buyers, for our young families, for key workers, for
the next generation.
We need the
right homes in the right places, shaped by the rate principles.
Instead we are being offered a top- down model driven by arbitrary
targets. The result is identikit developments and solar settlements.
Rules of uninspiring concrete boxes that have no relation to the history and heritage or the hopes of the
communities. Crucially, in the
centralising zeal, as my colleague,
the Minister, the shadow minister, and the honourable member calls it, local voices are being sidelined.
Local councils, those who love and
understand to be at his best, are
being overlooked. The individual has
become a target in the machine. This bill in its current form is not just flawed but it is dangerous and it risks eroding trust in the planning
system and wiping the gulf between government. This bill must be considered in conjunction with the
changes to the national applying policy framework. The government
approach to shift targets from urban areas to rural areas is cynical and
economically illiterate.
I welcome the restoration of mandatory targets
in principle but raising targets by
up to 400% in rural areas file simultaneously reducing them by over
11% in London, 30% in Birmingham and Newcastle, and over 50% in Coventry, is unfair and a mistake. The policy
is unfair and a mistake. The policy
is presented as a few misused garage forecourts and wasteland in green belts and it is a can. What I have seen done as important protections
that prevent villages from merging
into nearby villages and towns and of course there is the matter of the
environment.
Anyone who cares about the natural world knows this. Once the habitat is destroyed, once would
land as up or a bio diverse
landscape doors, nothing can bring it back. There is zero confidence on
this side of the House that Natural England can successfully mitigate the significant environmental harms
that will ensure you through the environmental delivery plans and that is why we propose these are
delivered locally through local strategic plans. The truth is that
we cannot concrete the way to community and we cannot meet housing
needs by overwriting the people we are building for.
We cannot call it
progress if it leaves the countryside agreed and communities
disempowered. I am happy to give way. For I thank the shadow minister
for giving way. Residents in my constituency are particularly concerned about the erosion of the
green areas around the village. Does he share my concern that in the
London assembly last week when the issue was discussed about the green
belt in outer London, uniform actually backed the Mayor in terms
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of building over the green belt. -- Reform actually backed. I thank him for the intervention
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I thank him for the intervention and the failures of the London Mayor to build more houses are well
to build more houses are well documented. What is perhaps not the surprise is Reform would take the further step of supporting the
further step of supporting the Pursuit of Labour votes. We have concerns about the enhanced compulsory purchase orders for councils and mirrors and natural
councils and mirrors and natural England. Without hope or market value. This undermines one of the most important principles of the
most important principles of the economy property rights.
This is not only unfair but there will be legal
only unfair but there will be legal challenges in the courts. During the
course of the passage of this bill, we attempted to work with the government to make sensible changes and make the bill fit for purpose,
to no avail. Let us not be seduced by forced choices. We don't have to choose between development and democracy, between Homs and heritage, ambition and
accountability. We can build and we must build and we must do so in a
way that listens, respects safeguards.
I would urge the government, yes, be ambitious but
think again. Rethink the bill and restore the local voice and reinstate environmental protections. Let us chart the path to progress
that honours the need for homes, the obligation to communities and the environment, the duty to future
generations. In its current form,
generations. In its current form,
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It has been an honour and a privilege to represent the Liberal
18:00
Gideon Amos MP (Taunton and Wellington, Liberal Democrat)
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Democrats at the pleasure of the right honourable member for Kingston on the Planning and Infrastructure
Bill in committee and all stages of
the bill. I would add my thanks to my staff team and to my colleagues on the liberal Democrat benches for all of their spirited amendments
from across all topics. We put forward 78 amendments at the
Committee stage of the bill, which I can only imagine was a joy for the
Ministers officials to respond to and the Minister himself of course.
I would also pay tribute to the
members across the whole house, which has been a bill which is stimulated amendments from all
corners of the House and great debate, including the Member for St
Ives working with the Member for Bury St Edmunds on an amendment in
relation to exclusion sites for
housing. Just as an example of the kind of cross party approach that
was made in different corners of the House towards improving this bill.
We set out at second reading where we were the only party that applied to vote against this bill because of
our principled concerns about it.
We set out to address concerns about
people and their rights and communities and fairness and nature
and the effects this bill will have on nature. We sought to address all of those topics within minutes we
put forward, including initially on rights for people and individuals, what greater right can there be as
the chairman of the Select Committee pointed out yesterday in a right to a decent home which can be afforded
in which to bring up your family. Therefore we champion our proposal
for 150,000 social homes per year to be built as a key target of this
government.
We continue to encourage them through all means, including votes in this place to move towards
a target for social homes to be built rather than simply a target for millions of homes which we know
without that target will be led by private market housing which is no
solution to the problems we face. We sought to address communities and
fairness by seeking to remove the power that this government will grant to itself and all future governments to interfere in the
running of councils and give to employees and planning consultants
decisions over and above the heads of the councillors who employ them and who are meant to be accountable
for those decisions.
Decisions for the first time could be made by
council officers and by consultants,
which Labour disagreed with every single name of the local
authorities, yet will stand with those councillors and they won't be able to do anything to change that decision. That can't be right. The
undermined trust of communities in our political system. A system in
which at local level people engage more with planning than perhaps any other aspect of local government. The more they see the centralisation
of planning powers, the more they see the standard method written by
Whitehall, the guidance is written by Whitehall, the more they see the appeals process is dominated by
Whitehall, now they see even their own councillors not allowed to make
decisions, the more we will be damaging trust in politics and in community belief in the planning
system and the system of local democracy which is so important to our country.
That is a principled reason why we so strongly object to
the removal of powers from councillors in this bill. For nature we support a number of the measures
in this bill, many are good measures and III, in passing, would want to
pay tribute to the Minister for his work on bringing back strategic planning which I know he has worked on for a number of years. On nature
we are gravely concerned that national trust has called this bill a licence to kill nature. It is
right to bring in a system, for example, for phosphates, which could
be mitigated at a strategic level, but to completely remove that
process the principle of first do no harm on the site on which you are
developing is the wrong thing to do.
We should be ensuring the mitigation hierarchy is there, enshrined in the
bill in this new system, so that first we look at avoiding harm to
the site and then mitigating it and only finally offsetting it where that is absolutely necessary. We
should only offset where absolutely necessary and when that can be done.
I remember a new clause 1 were to put back that protection of nature into this new system. I will give
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way. I thank him. I'm sure he knows
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I thank him. I'm sure he knows his legislation very well, but in the Levelling-up and Regeneration Act 2023 three, it stated Ministers
Act 2023 three, it stated Ministers have a duty to further the purposes of protected landscapes like
of protected landscapes like national landscapes. Do you think it's a missed opportunity that this bill did not take the opportunity to give national landscapes a seat at
give national landscapes a seat at the table by making them statutory consult these like one in my
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constituency? I am grateful to my honourable friend who has done so much work to
friend who has done so much work to champion that national landscape and
champion that national landscape and the need for them to have a seat at the planning table. My own national landscape, the black down hills,
landscape, the black down hills, which also deserve a seat at the planning table. We don't believe cutting out consul tees in
consultation and cutting out voices from the planning process is the way to deliver more homes or better
communities.
We need to bring invoices like the national
landscapes and we would like to do that and put forward amendments to achieve that. On the rights of
people to homes and genuinely affordable homes, on the rights of
communities and fairness in the process, on the rights to nature, we don't believe the government has gone far enough and we cannot
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support this bill as it currently stands. Fear not, I will keep my comments
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Fear not, I will keep my comments very very brief. I cannot let this
18:07
Rt Hon Wendy Morton MP (Aldridge-Brownhills, Conservative)
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very very brief. I cannot let this bill go without saying that Planning and Infrastructure Bill was an opportunity. It was an opportunity
to create the homes we need, to support communities, support our farmers and farming and support the
environment. To ensure that good development is supported by good infrastructure. I have sat in this
chamber for two days listened to amendments, debated amendments, including my own on battery energy
storage systems. Time and time again, the government has just
rejected them.
What we have ended up with his legislation that drives a coach and horses through accountability. It seeks to steamroll over local people and to
concrete over our precious Green Belt. It gives local people no
rights, no voice, no say over how their communities are shaped for the
future. On that basis, I will be
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voting against this. I will also keep my remarks
18:07
Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)
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short, but I want to put it on record that Devon, which is rightly
celebrated across Britain for its rugged coastline, rolling farmland, spectacular more lands, ancient
woodlands, is subject to the diggers of the developers encouraged by this
government. While we all need houses and we all need the protection they afford, this act, if it is enacted,
will only damage nature. Nature and
Devon is part of who we are and we face in nature crossroads. The Devon nature partnership tells us the loss
and decline of Devon's wildlife has accelerated rapidly over the last 50
years.
The wooded valleys of the black down hills, the wildflower Meadows of East Devon are priceless, once they are gone they can't be
brought back. We were discussing in the tea room yesterday the darkening clouds of the international system
and how grave the matters of state are that this government has to deal
with. Somebody pointed out that nevermind grappling with wars and
conflict, we can't even create a system where we can put a 44 pound
swift brick on a new house to
encourage nature in our rural areas.
Healthy natural systems underpin our economy, they underpin our communities, but unless we restore
nature, we will not have anything left. Building homes does not need
to come at the cost of nature and we must build in the right places with nature embedded at the heart of
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planning. Thank you. The question is that the bill be now read a third time. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye", of
are of that opinion, say, "Aye", of the contrary, "No". Division, clear
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The The question The question is The question is on The question is on the The question is on the order
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The question is on the order paper. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye", of the contrary, "No". Tellers for the
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Lock Lock the Lock the doors.
Order, Order, order.
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The The ayes The ayes to The ayes to the The ayes to the right, The ayes to the right, 306.
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The ayes to the right, 306. The
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The ayes to the right, 306. The noes to the left, 174. The ayes to the right, 306. The noes to the
to the right, 306. The noes to the left, 174. The ayes have it. The
left, 174. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Unlock. We now come to
ayes have it. Unlock. We now come to the statement on Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories. I
18:23
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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Occupied Palestinian Territories. I called the Minister to make the
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With With permission, With permission, I With permission, I will With permission, I will make With permission, I will make a
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With permission, I will make a statement on Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories. The two-
Palestinian Territories. The two- state solution is in peril. Catastrophic conflict in Gaza and a
Catastrophic conflict in Gaza and a shocking deterioration in the West Bank. This is an affront to the
rights of Palestinians and also against the interests of Israeli and the long-term security and democracy
the long-term security and democracy their. Today, I will update the House on the new actions that we are
House on the new actions that we are taking to uphold human rights and uphold the vision and viability of
uphold the vision and viability of the two states living side-by-side.
the two states living side-by-side.
2024 saw the worst settler violence against Abyssinians in the West Bank in the last two decades. 2025 is on
track to be just as violent. Between
1996 and 2023, an average of seven illegal settler outposts were established illegally. In 2024,
settlers erected 59. These outposts are illegal under both Israeli and international law. Two weeks ago,
international law. Two weeks ago,
the Israeli government itself announced 22 new settlements. Every
outpost, every building erected is a flagrant breach of international
law.
It disregards the views of international partners for Israel
and there are no in excess of
500,000 settlers living in the West Bank. There are over 100,000 in the
Jewish territory, what they call the territory that must fall and the
heart of a sovereign Palestine. The sharp growth in settlements alone is
dangerous enough but it has been accompanied by a steep rise in settler violence and extremist
rhetoric. Itamar Ben-Gvir has led
seven provocative intrusions since
2022.
In 2023, the settlers rampaged
through the village in what the West
Bank military commander described as the act of outlaws. Last month,
villages fled from their homes in fear after the construction of an
illegal outpost 100m away. This
month, the settlers attacked the
local town and they attacked people. As an assault on Palestinian
communities and on the fundamentals of the two-state solution. This is
an attempt to entrench a reality of one state, where there are no equal
rights.
The two-state solution
remains the only viable framework
for a just and lasting peace. I know that it is supported by every side of this House. Israelis living in
secure borders recognised and at peace with their neighbours, free
from the threat of terrorism, with Palestinians living in their own
state with dignity and security, and free from occupation. We are
steadfastly committed to defending
that a vision, not just with words but with action. That is why we have
pledged £101 million in additional support to the Palestinian people
this year and why we are working to strengthen and reform the Palestinian Authority.
Which is why
my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary signed a long-term
agreement with Prime Minister Mustafa and by the Prime Minister welcomed him to Downing Street. It
is why we are clear that Hamas must immediately and unconditionally release the hostages and that Hamas
can have no role in Palestinian governance. It is why we are committed to working with civil society, Israelis and Palestinians, to support those who believe in
to support those who believe in
peace and coexistence.
However, the gravity of the situation demands
further action and the reality is the human rights abuses, the
incitement to violence, the extremist rhetoric, it comes not
just from the uncontrolled fringe but from individuals who are ministers in this Israeli
government. We must hold them to account. We must protect the viability of the two-state solution.
Today we are sanctioning Bezalel
Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir. We are acting alongside Australia, Canada,
New Zealand and Norway, who have
also announced their own measures today.
These two men are responsible for inciting settler violence
against Palestinian communities in the West, violence which has led to the deaths of Palestinian civilians
and the displacement of whole towns and villages. This violence
constitutes an abuse of Palestinians' human rights. It is cruel, degrading, completely
unacceptable. We have told the Israeli government repeatedly that
we would take proper action if this
did not stop. It still did not. The
pollen rhetoric has continued -- the pollen rhetoric has continued unchecked with violent perpetrators continuing to act with impunity and
continuing to act with impunity and
When we say something, we mean it.
Today we have shown with our partners to extremes we will not sit
by while they wrecked the prospects
of future peace. Our actions today do not diminish our support for the security of Israel and the Israeli
people. The agendas of these two men are not even supported by the
majority of Israelis. Israelis recognise that these individuals are
not working in their interest. As the Foreign Secretary said last month, we want a strong friendship
with Israel based on shared values and our many close ties.
Our
condemnation of Hamas, and the appalling attacks of October 7 is
unequivocal. Our commitment to the security of Israelis and the future
of Israel is unwavering. We will continue to press for an immediate
cease-fire in Gaza, the release of the hostages still held so cruelly
the hostages still held so cruelly
by Hamas. The repeated threats by Hamas to the lives of the hostages are grotesque and it prolongs the
agony of their family and loved
ones.
Hamas should release all the hostages immediately and unconditionally. Mr Speaker, the
situation in the West Bank cannot be seen in isolation from events in
Gaza. Extremist rhetoric advocating forced displacement of Palestinians,
denial of central aid, the creation of new Israeli settlements in the
strip is equally appalling and dangerous. This government will never accept the unlawful transfer
of Gazans from or within Gaza. Nor
any reduction in the territory of
the Gaza Strip. The humanitarian
situation remains catastrophic in Gaza, while Israel's ground and air operations expand, Gazans have now
been pushed into less than 20% of the territory.
Hospitals have been
destroyed and damaged. The entire population of Gaza is now at risk of
famine. Meanwhile, Israel's newly introduced measures for aid in
danger civilians and foster
desperation. They are inhumane. The Red Cross field hospital in Rafah
reported last week that it has responded to an unprecedented five mass casualty incidents in the two
weeks prior. In each case, Palestinians have been killed or
injured trying to access aid in Gaza. Desperate civilians who have
endured 20 months of war should
never face the risk of death or injury simply to feed themselves and
their families.
We need further action from the Israeli governments
now. To lift all restrictions on aid, to enable the UN and aid
partners to do their work, to ensure food and other critical supplies can reach people safely wherever they
are. We will continue to support the
UN and other trusted NGOs as the most affected and principal partners for aid delivery. Our support has
meant over 465,000 people have received essential healthcare.
640,000 have received food. 275,000
have improved access to water, sanitation and hygiene services.
We
of course support the efforts led by the United States, Qatar and Egypt to secure an immediate cease-fire in
Gaza. We welcome France and Saudi Arabia's initiative to chair an international conference next week
to advance a two-state solution. It is a two-state solution, that is the
only way to bring the long-lasting peace that both Israelis and
Palestinians deserve. But it cannot remain an empty slogan. Repeated by
generations of diplomats and politicians by increasingly divorced
from the reality on the ground.
Smotrich said there is no such thing
as a Palestinian nation. Mr Ben-Gvir
has spoken of his rights in the West Bank, territory his government is occupying as being more important than the rights of millions of
Palestinians. Their own words
condemn them. To defend those Palestinians rights, to protect the
two-state solution, to see Israelis and Palestinians living side-by-side
in safety and security, this government is taking action. I
commend this statement to the House.
18:35
Rt Hon Priti Patel MP (Witham, Conservative)
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I am grateful to the Minister for
his statement and for the advanced side of it. The situation as he has said in the Middle East and the
suffering we are seeing is serious and completely intolerable. I would
reiterate my remarks in response to the statement last week on the levels of desperation and suffering
being completely unacceptable. We continue to see violence, deaths and
casualties and is a Minister said, near aid distribution centres which is simply incomprehensible and that should simply never happened.
Britain has continued to leverage its influence at every opportunity with Israel and with our international allies to change the
course of events that the world is witnessing, to ensure the remaining
hostages are released, that aid reaches those who need it and that
is sustainable till the end of this conflict is achieved. We all want to
see a better future for the Israeli and Palestinian people and the UK must continue to play a leading role
in achieving this. To do this the UK needs to have a constructive set of channels of communication with all
our partners in the region and working towards peace and ending this conflict, including dialogue
with Israel.
The Minister will be aware that the sanctioning of individuals is always under review,
that is the right policy. And in the case of Israel, this has been previously considered even by Lord
Cameron who has spoken of that in the last government. With the Minister just explain the timings of
this decision being taken today. Can he give an assessment on what the impact will be? He has mentioned
already and I have read the Foreign Office statement on access visas,
travel vans, disqualifications, they will only have an effect in the
right way by working with allies, in particular and the statement also refers to action also being taken
with Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Norway.
Can the Minister tell us what discussions he has had on this issue with other partners including
the United States of America and their response. With this decision
and others taken, can the Minister give his honest assessment of the UK's governments relationship with
Israel. Can he let us know what direct communication he and the Foreign Secretary of had with Israel on securing the delivery of vital lifesaving humanitarian aid to
people in desperate need of help. On the side of the House, as he heard
last week, we have been clear that settlement violence is not helpful
at all, it is going backwards when it comes to delivering the two-state solution.
We would urge Israel for
its part not to take steps that would make the two-state solution even more difficult. We have
consistently been committed to supporting a two-state solution, delivered in the right way and at the right time and will work
constructively to support every effort to achieve this. While discussing the West Bank, can the
Minister provide an update on the progress being made with the reforms
as he has touched on already with the Palestinian Authority following the MOU that was signed in April.
The House will understand that
credible government -- governance is needed for long-term stability in
the West Bank and in Gaza too. Of course that means with no future
role for Hamas. More widely on the conflict, the reports of the latest rounds of negotiations of hostage
releases aren't bringing an end to the conflict are frustrating for us
all. And if not made the progress we all desperately need to see. Can the
Minister provide an update on the direct discussions he is involved in, including with Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Qatar and other
allies in the region.
The remaining hostages as he has said, held in captivity of the Iranian backed
terrorist, they face over 600 days of suffering and horrific conditions and securing their release continues
to be critical to seeking to end this conflict. We all want to see
aid to get into Gaza, to the innocent Palestinians that are
suffering, the need for vital food, medicines and shelter. We have discussed this in previous
statements and I completely recognise and understand the difficulties associated in light of the challenging situation in getting
aid in.
Can the Minister provide an
update on the amount of aid, type of aid, the UK continues to support and fund directly through partners, where that aid is currently located
and the efforts to get it in. The House will know, I said this last
week in the statement as well, my noble friend Lord Cameron previously working with the Israeli government
secured aid by working with allies and the Israeli government, including the opening up of crossings and port, increasing the
number of trucks and volumes of aid entering Gaza.
Can the Minister
confirm that he has spoken to or presented a clear plan to Israel, working with our partners on
supporting more aid going in. Increases in volume of aid, making
use of our long-standing experience, because we lead the world when it comes to getting aid and that
expertise with a strong track record. Finally, can the Minister
give any update on the actions taken to restart the dialogue and discussions on the viability of the
Abraham Accords and on making progress when it comes to delivering
the Cairo plan, which the House knows is so important, it is backed by local and regional allies and
sees a really pivotal role when it comes to the Egyptian government playing that vital role for securing peace in the region.
Because these
are essential conditions we need for
creating peace and stability and a
better future for Israel and. -- And Palestine. Palestine.
18:41
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I think the right honourable lady for her questions. She raises
important points about work with allies and let me address the points on Egypt, which is vital, the Egyptians have conducted important
work and I will be pleased to be with them next week as part of the
two-state solution conference to discuss the reconstruction of Gaza.
She is absolutely right that we need to be focused on how we can work with partners in the region and
beyond to try to ensure that vital building blocks can be put in place,
both the reformed Palestinian Authority, but also a rebuilt Gaza, we can all see how acute those needs
are.
We have sought to work with partners and I am very grateful to the Speaker and colleagues for their
flexibility this evening for doing a statement in a slightly unusual way
for top we have sought to coordinate closely with the partners who are
start of the -- part of the statement full top we have coordinated with others, we have with a range of other partners
including the US. We have spoken
with other governments directly today. O She invites me to comment on the state of the relationship
between the UK and Israel, the state of disagreement I think it's clear.
I regret the tone of some of our
exchanges. We do not wish to have such profound disagreements with the Israeli government. As a Minister
for the Middle East, when we disagree as profoundly as we do, I'm afraid I have to say so both
publicly and privately and that is what I have done. I'm afraid I have to say so both publicly and privately and that is what I have done.
18:43
Richard Burgon MP (Leeds East, Labour)
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I have long called for competence
of sanctions on Israel in response to its crimes against the Palestinian people. So the sanctions
against two far-right ministers are a step in the right direction.
Israel's war crimes are about far
more than a couple of bad apples. So much much more needs to be done.
When Russia invaded Ukraine, over 2,500 sanctions were rightfully
imposed on Russia. I say to the foreign Minister, isn't it now time
for Russia style sanctions on Israel
to help stop the genocide.
To help stop the genocide.
18:44
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I want to be really clear that the two men who we have it out sanctions today, do not represent
the majority of Israelis. There are so many connections between the UK
and Israel and we hear about the
extent to which the decisions, the rhetoric and the language of these two ministers causes concern in Israel as. We are taking action on
extremist rhetoric and extremist action which threatens the human
rights of Palestinians and that continues to be the threshold for the sanctions we will keep under
review.
For the sanctions we will keep under review. keep under review.
18:44
Calum Miller MP (Bicester and Woodstock, Liberal Democrat)
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I want to begin by welcoming the step taken by the government today to sanction the extremist ministers.
It is only right they face
consequences for their relentless call for the forced dispossession of Palestinians which have so egregiously undermined prospects for
securing a just and sustainable peace in the region. My party leader was the first to call for the
sanctions last February when their extremist views were already clear. My only disappointment therefore is
My only disappointment therefore is
that the conservatives refused to act when they were could have done so and it is taken as government
nearly a year to take this important step.
It is essential that the government steps towards a just resolution of the conflict, which must include getting aid in, getting
hostages out and agreeing and enduring cease-fire. In the last week we have seen the product of extremism advanced by Ben-Gvir and
Smotrich. The deaths of more Palestinians, who were queuing in
desperation for food from the so- called Gaza humanitarian foundation. Calls for Palestinian displacement
can no longer be tolerated. Will the government build on today's progress by urgently considering sections on other extremist ministers who
continue to call for the blockade of Gaza and expanded military action in
the strip, starting with Israel
The time has come to officially recognise the independent state of
Palestine.
Will the government commit to taking this vital step at the summit next week in New York?
Recognition will demonstrate commitment to self-determination and
make clear that, building on the announcement today, the UK will do all it can to take control away from
extremists and give the Palestinians
hope of lasting peace. hope of lasting peace.
18:46
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I thank him for his questions. It is an important moment we are talking about with friends and
allies and we will return to the
House to discuss further. I won't
speculate on further sanctions. We have taken the steps because of the
extremist rhetoric. We will keep
further sanctions to that effect.
18:47
Jon Pearce MP (High Peak, Labour)
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I welcome the statement from the
Minister. It is right to target the enemies of peace within the Netanyahu government who are
entirely different from the will of the Israeli people. I very much
welcome the reference to supporting civilised societies within Israel
and Palestine. It is true that there
can be no top down two-state solution without building those communities. Will the Minister
update the House on the UK's proposals for an international fund
for Israeli and Palestinian peace?
18:48
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I thank my honourable friend and
colleague from the East Midlands. He's long been committed to these issues and in particular the difficult work and the vital work of
ensuring civil society in Israel and Palestine work on peace building projects will stop I know that he
was recently in the region and I commend him for his approach. We
hope to set out the approach to the international fund following the announcements from the Prime
Minister in due course. We want to bring in peacemakers on both sides of the conflict together.
18:48
Rt Hon Sir Roger Gale MP (Herne Bay and Sandwich, Conservative)
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As you know, I have tried for two days to raise this urgent question
and when the Minister came to the
dispatch box, I had expected to hear
something constructive but what we have heard is the sanctioning of two people. The UK government could unilaterally recognise Palestine.
The UK government could show the
The UK government could show the
world elite. Above all, -- a lead. Above all, they could negotiate the delivery of food and water and medicine to women and children who
medicine to women and children who
are starving and Palestine, direct into Gaza.
I asked him last week and will ask him again - when is the
government going to do something?
18:49
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I thank the honourable gentleman for his question. We have to be
focused on what are the real options
for getting aid and volume of aid
into Gaza? Even when the aid is in
Gaza by land, it is still incredibly dangerous for aid workers and
ultimately DQ flexion mechanisms for the aid workers should feel aid
operation be allowed back into the
Gaza strip take place. There are three British families who are still
mourning the loss at the hands of
the IDF when trying to deliver aid and if there was another option to
get aid in we would take it.
There
is no such option. We must negotiate access with the Israeli government
and we intend to do so.
18:50
Abtisam Mohamed MP (Sheffield Central, Labour)
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I welcome the sanctions. They are
18:51
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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long overdue. It is an important step forward. I thank the Minister
18:51
Abtisam Mohamed MP (Sheffield Central, Labour)
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step forward. I thank the Minister for his hard work. My honourable friend and I were denied entry to
friend and I were denied entry to the Occupy Palestinian Territories because we spoke out against
because we spoke out against annexation. Partners are calling for recognition before it is too late. The US ambassador to Israel
The US ambassador to Israel reiterated what many fear today,
reiterated what many fear today, that the US will not privatise a Palestinian state becoming a reality in our lifetime.
Does the Minister
in our lifetime. Does the Minister agree we must not throw the recognition into the long grass and
recognition into the long grass and that it is implied the Israeli government has a veto and they will
government has a veto and they will continue to terrorise Palestinians in the West Bank. If we do not recognise no, there will be no Palestinian state to recognise. The
then Minister agree we must recognise the Palestinian state next weekend?
weekend?
18:52
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I thank my honourable friend for the question and for her commitment to these issues. Clearly,
recognition is right at the centre of any discussion of two-state solution. The actions that we have
announced today are part of UK
efforts to ensure that the reality of two-state solution remains in
play. It is clear from the rhetoric of the ministers we have sanctioned and from others that there is
limited commit on the side of the Israeli government to advancing the
cause.
The UK is committed to
advancing the cause and we will discuss that further.
18:52
Greg Smith MP (Mid Buckinghamshire, Conservative)
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I have no sympathy with the
comments and the rhetoric of the two
ministers the Minister has announced sanctions on. He said very clearly,
"We will not sit by while extremists wrecked the prospect of future
peace." If this action is not to be seen as a double standard, where are the sanctions against ministers
within the Palestinian Authority who have incited violence and made vile
Israelis?
18:53
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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Us ISIL with regularity, I will
not speculate on further sanctions on either side of the conflict from the dispatch box but he is right, thresholds and tests are the same
and we condemn anti-Semitic rhetoric, insight into violence, and
we will sanctioned accordingly. we will sanctioned accordingly.
18:53
Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)
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The sanctions imposed on the two Israeli ministers was long overdue
but it is a welcome first step. I
want to ask the Minister as I continue to ask him, why are we
still arming Israel? When will we impose an arms embargo? When we bandy settlements? Finally, he
saluted them -- has already alluded to the conference as a crucial moment for the Palestinian state.
The Minister has the ability to share with those of the UK government is committed to recognising Palestinian statehood.
Will he?
18:54
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I fear I have to take issue with the idea that this is the first that the government has taken with
relation to the issues. It is not in relation to sanctions. This is the
third set of sanctions we have announced in relation to settlements in the West Bank. In relation to the
two-state solution conference next
week, we are talking with friends and allies and I'm sure I will be back in the House next week.
18:55
Monica Harding MP (Esher and Walton, Liberal Democrat)
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Has said humanity is failing in Gaza and what is happening is surpassing any acceptable legal, moral or humane standard. Palestinians are being stripped of their dignity. When will he realise they have a
When will he realise they have a state? Given Israel continues to block it, what more will he do? He
18:55
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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block it, what more will he do? He talks about first steps. He needs to
talks about first steps. He needs to run. So, it was not me who talked about first steps. We have taken a sequence of measures and will
sequence of measures and will continue to. The blockade on aid into Gaza is reprehensible and I
into Gaza is reprehensible and I have talked about the famine that faces the whole strip. The steps we have taken today will not unlock the aid into Gaza and we will continue
aid into Gaza and we will continue to advocate, press, take further
measures until it is unlocked.
18:56
Yuan Yang MP (Earley and Woodley, Labour)
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I stand with my honourable friend the Member for Sheffield Central. We
were denied entry to Israel months ago and one reason given was advocacy for the sanctions that have
been placed today. I stand by my comments and decisive action today. It is important, I then Minister
mentions, to uphold the rights of Palestinians and the UK along with
international allies can take further action by recognising the state of Palestine and I asked the Minister what more he can do and what we can do to press allies
together to come to that collective decision.
18:56
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I am grateful for the contribution of my honourable
friend. She went to the region to see with her own eyes, as she did repeatedly, as a much respected journalist and author before she came to the House and they know her
commitment to these issues and I assure talking with the full range of friends and allies about the
approach to the two-state solution Conference next week. Conference next week.
18:57
Rt Hon Mark Pritchard MP (The Wrekin, Conservative)
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Could the Minister tell the House whether he thinks the sanctions will
save the -- a single Palestinian
lay. And the head of the recognition
summit, not the resolution summer, was a slip of the tongue, some might be suspicious that there is a
cynical coincidence of the timing of the statement ahead of the summit
next week. Can he reassure the House and those concerned about the issue that the UK government has not done
a grubby deal behind the scenes with the American administration, trading
the sanctions and saying no to
recognition in New York next week?
18:57
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I called the conference next week
whatever it is called by the same
name the French and Saudi Arabian authorities have called it. I have
done no deals, grubby or otherwise, I assure him. We take sovereign steps on this. I have been asked
about timing and as I know many members will appreciate working in
concert with allies and making a joint announcement of this kind requires coordination and I was here
last Wednesday and I was being asked
understandably by many members when I would be in position to announce further steps and I would like to
have been in the position to do so earlier than I have been but we've
always taken the view it is most powerful to act with our allies and
so we took the time to be able to work in concert with them.
18:58
Imran Hussain MP (Bradford East, Labour)
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Many of us have been consistent in our calls for sanctions against
those that commit war crimes in Gaza. The sanctions placed on these
ministers today are a step in the right direction. Let us be clear
that this is nowhere near enough.
Palestinians staff and aid is
blocked. -- starve. It's a flagrant
breach of international law and we continue to allow arms to Israel. We
cannot condemn this far continuing to arm those contributing to it.
The government must act and end all arms
sales to Israel. Anything else is not just a failure of diplomacy but a failure of moral leadership in the
a failure of moral leadership in the
18:59
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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Let me be really clear for the
House, we are not selling arms, bombs, bullets for use by Israel in
Gaza. We have a carveout on the F-35
programme to maintain the program which both ours and many allies
benefit from. Where the F-35 parts
were directly sold, the trade is suspended and we are not providing
the weaponry that is being used in
Gaza and I want to assure my honourable friend that I do not think that the government does not think that the actions that we have
taken today will be the golden answer to getting aid into Gaza.
It
will not be the golden answer and we will continue to work at all of those fronts until we achieve
Cats?
19:01
Brendan O'Hara MP (Argyll, Bute and South Lochaber, Scottish National Party)
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While we welcome the sanctions, it really need to happen a long time
ago. Further to the previous question, today's announcement highlights the uncertainty of the
government's position because the
Foreign Secretary recently described these views... Guilty of human
rights abuses and is in flagrant
breach of international law. On what basis legally or moral can the government continue to supply F 35
component knowing that it will be a
regime that they themselves have condemned for expelling monstrous
views and that they now accept as guilty of human rights violations and are in flagrant breach of international law? Breach of
international law?
19:01
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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For the purposes of time I won't address the legal questions, not
least given by a judicial review, we are confident that the limited
carveout we have done in order for functioning of the F 35 programme
vital to our national security and that of so many of our allies is both legal and proportionate moral
and we will continue to fight that course -- case in the court. -- case in the court. in the court.
19:02
Sarah Smith MP (Hyndburn, Labour)
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I welcome today's announcement which sends a clear message to the
Israeli government. For millions of people in Palestine and Gaza, they go to bed every night if they can
even find a bed to sleep on unsure if they're going to wake up in the
morning and whether their family members, who might've survived so far, will also wake up with them. Does the Minister agree with me that
we must take the vital step toward the two-state solution, which is for
the UK to recognise the state of Palestine next week at the conference at France and Saudi
Arabia are leading on.
The state of Palestine next week at the Arabia are leading on.
19:02
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I won't repeat my answers about the conference next week, but my honourable friend is been committed to these issues for a long time and
she is absolutely right when she says that millions of people are in an abject position facing famine,
terrible shortages of all essential supplies and they weigh very much on
the mind of this government each and every day. And they weigh very much on the mind of this government each and every day.
19:03
Bob Blackman MP (Harrow East, Conservative)
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The two Israeli ministers are no
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The two Israeli ministers are no
friends of the Israeli people. The
friends of the Israeli people. The reality is that we have two aspects here, that is Hamas control still of Gaza and their refusal to release
Gaza and their refusal to release hostages or to agree to a hostage exchange or to allow aid in and allow the aid to reach Palestinian
allow the aid to reach Palestinian
Also the challenge of releasing the hostages. They have refused the
hostages.
They have refused the ceasefire deal. What action will be Minister take to make sure Hamas
Minister take to make sure Hamas come to the negotiating table and negotiate a ceasefire so that
international aid can get in. What is the attitude towards those who
is the attitude towards those who attempt to break the ceasefire?
19:04
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I arch them to return to the
ceasefire talks when reports reached us that they had not done so. I hope it is successful and I repeat my
it is successful and I repeat my
call for the hostages to be freed. I must iterate it is the land routes
we are focused on. It must be opened
at the scale to get aid in in the way required. way required.
19:04
Naz Shah MP (Bradford West, Labour)
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I thank the Minister for his statement to the House and I thank the government for the sanctions that we have in place. I appreciate
allies have to work together and it takes time to have negotiations but
I agree it is more powerful. I find it helpful to tell my constituents
and the country that what is the government position going into those
negotiations next week with England
and America, as at the offer of the government to say that we should recognise Palestine immediately and
19:05
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I recognise the strength of feeling of all constituents across the country. We go into the two-
state conference clear in our commitments that the Palestinians
have and in alienable right to a state which is safe and secure
alongside Israel and we are talking about to our friends and allies about the best methods to secure
that.
19:06
Mr Adnan Hussain MP (Blackburn, Independent)
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The government's decision to sanction to Israeli ministers is
certainly welcome, however does the Minister acknowledge that every limb
of the Israeli state is carrying out a genocide against the Palestinian
people of Gaza. Sanctions must be
extended to the entire state of Israel, not tomorrow, not in a weeks
time, not in another 18 months time, alongside a full arms embargo and the expulsion of the Israeli
ambassador.
19:06
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I thanked him for his question, he knows the long-standing position
about determinations with breaches of international crimes. I want to
be clear that our sanctions do not target the entirety of the Israeli
people. They target two individuals who have been promulgating extremist
rhetoric and action, who have breached the rights of the Palestinians. It is that breach of
rights upon which we are focused. rights upon which we are focused.
19:07
Tahir Ali MP (Birmingham Hall Green and Moseley, Labour)
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We have been here almost every week talking about these issues. Although the sanctions are welcome,
but every speaker is sending a clear
message to the Minister today, to recognise the state of Palestine. If
we don't recognise the state of Palestine, there will be no Palestine to recognise. The question
for me is, what is preventing that recognition from happening?
Especially when the UK is amongst
one of the 50 that is not in a position to be recognising Palestine.
Do we need permission of
Netanyahu to recognise Palestine or anyone from his government to do
that? Because if not and we are independent of that decision, this decision should have been taken a
long time ago.
19:08
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I can confirm to the honourable gentleman that we don't need any
permission for making policy decisions. If we did, I think the
Israeli government would have a rather different attitude towards Britain's ministers to the Middle East and they do. The position in
relation to recognition is that we wish to provide a state in which
Palestinians can live safe and secure side by side with the
Israelis. Clearly that looks distant at the moment for the reasons of the
honourable gentleman says.
Those reasons need to be addressed. We
want to see progress and we will consider our own position as part of the best possible way we can make a
contribution to those issues.
19:08
Rt Hon Sir Desmond Swayne MP (New Forest West, Conservative)
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Sanctions are no remedy to the imperilled two-state solution. Is the Minister going to the conference
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with a plan? Can the honourable gentleman
19:09
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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Can the honourable gentleman always asks SA synced and clear
always asks SA synced and clear questions. -- Succinct. I was a
diplomat for a long time, sanctions are no remedy, they are an
expression of a failure in the international system. We have heard, as mountable friend has said week on
week, about the agonies. It is a conference called by our friends and allies and we are discussing our approach closely.
19:09
Debbie Abrahams MP (Oldham East and Saddleworth, Labour)
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Can I just congratulate the Minister and all his team and officials for all that they have
done. I do not underestimate the amount of work that has gone in,
especially working with international allies to get where we have will stop as you can see, there
is always a demand for more, as there should be given what we know is going on. Can I add my voice to
everybody else who said that hopefully this is the lead up to
next week and the successful announcement with our allies about the recognition of the Palestinian
state.
state.
19:10
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I thank her for her kind words, both about me but also about the officials of the diplomatic service
who have worked hard, tirelessly. As
I said to another member, I was hoping we could make this
announcement even sooner and it is through no fault of the hard-working British diplomats, they've done
everything they can to try to ensure the most impactful sanctions
announcement we can.
19:10
Andrew George MP (St Ives, Liberal Democrat)
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The two sanctioned ministers, I
have been -- they have been enabled by Prime Minister Netanyahu who is
himself subject to an International Criminal Court arrest warrant. I wonder what the government are going
to do to make sure that that is properly pursued. While I was in the
West Bank only a week after two
Labour members were shamefully deported from that country, it's very clear that the settlements are
taking over the West Bank very significantly.
What sanctions will
the government take to ensure there
is no trade with those settlements? is no trade with those settlements?
19:11
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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The settlements are not bound by the trade preferences between the UK
and Israel. They must be properly labelled, they attract different tariffs and they should be treated
as such, whether -- where there are breaches, they should be investigated.
19:12
Emily Darlington MP (Milton Keynes Central, Labour)
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I welcome the sanctions announced today by the Minister taken in
conjunction with our allies and his commitment to a Palestinian state. However, people in Gaza are
starving. I want to update the Minister on one such person. The
elderly and frail father of my constituent. A few weeks ago he
sought shelter in hospital with over
100 medical staff and patients as he is a former practicing doctor there. There was no food allowed in, the IDF destroyed the main water tanks.
The hospital was bombed and when he
left the hospital, he was stripped and humiliated by the IDF. He is now
hungry, ill and alone. As the rest of his family in Gaza has been
killed. What are we doing to protect the most vulnerable from dying by
increasing aid, increasing in evacuation's -- in evacuation's and
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ending the killing in Gaza? My honourable friend describes a
19:13
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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My honourable friend describes a heartbreaking case of a family member of her constituent, which she
member of her constituent, which she has raised me on a number of occasions. Avenue has many members
across the House and I'm usually not in a position to discuss those cases
on the Floor of the House. Where Constituents and their families are affected we will do everything we can to try to support them. We have
heard a great deal about the restrictions on aid and it is
candidly not easy to support people
to leave Gaza.
Where there is a UK connection, then I am always keen to
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do what I can to try to secure the safety of people. I welcome wholeheartedly the
19:14
Simon Hoare MP (North Dorset, Conservative)
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I welcome wholeheartedly the Minister statement. I welcome the sanctions, but fear that those who
sanctions, but fear that those who have just been sanctioned will either shrug their shoulders and say, " So what" Or worse wear them
as a badge of honour amongst their
cohort. Casting forward to next week and at the conference, I just want to ask the Minister, is he alert to
and seized of what I think is a very significant development in this
place, which is the very near unanimous support for a positive
declaration from His Majesty's
Government to order two-state solution and recognition of Palestine.
That is a very big step forward in the nuance of the
comments of my honourable friend the shadow Foreign Secretary I hope is not lost on the Minister either. He
will also no that right honourable and honourable friends from across the spectrum of the Conservative
Party have written twice to the Prime Minister urging that course of action and pledging we would give
wholehearted, full throated, full
support to that initiative. I hope the Minister knows that when he and officials go to that conference, he is armed with the goodwill of this
place to give some dynamism to this process, to recognise Palestine, to
show leadership and to use our good offices amongst our allies in the
region to bring as quickly as possible, this utter torture to an
end.
19:15
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I am a proud son of Labour Party
and have often attended most development within my own party, but it does not escape me the many forceful interventions from the
opposite benches on these questions. The many powerful speeches, particularly from those who
previously held other views. They are important contributions. I know they are watched widely by our
friends and allies across the world and by many in Israel. I take note
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of them. Am grateful to the Minister for
19:16
Henry Tufnell MP (Mid and South Pembrokeshire, Labour)
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Am grateful to the Minister for his statement and for the work he has done and he continues to do on
has done and he continues to do on this issue. The people of
Pembrokeshire watched in despair at the events unfolding on their TV screens, the death, the horror, the humanitarian catastrophe. I would
urge the Minister as I add my voice and those my constituent, that you need two-states for a two-state
19:16
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I thank my honourable friend for the question and I recognise the
strength of feeling in Pembrokeshire
and Lincoln and I won't repeat the manifesto commitment on which we
were elected and then sure he will
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talk about the conference. I live a little dry is a busy
19:17
Adam Dance MP (Yeovil, Liberal Democrat)
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I live a little dry is a busy route to me and simply asked why we
route to me and simply asked why we are not doing more and that sums up the crisis in Gaza. Can the Minister tell my constituents what steps he has taken with allies to ensure all
age groups are reopen and what consequences there will be if they are not.
19:17
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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The honourable gentleman asks a perfectly reasonable question and I
often feel like saying what we do diplomatically which I cannot always
advertise on the floor of the House is what we are doing and I'm sure it's obvious that work was ongoing
on this package of sanctions. Last
week during the statement I understood the visit event and I would like to reassure them and the House that whenever we are not in
this place, we are working with friends and allies behind the scene to try and secure the hostages and
ensure the two-state solution.
ensure the two-state solution.
19:18
Andy Slaughter MP (Hammersmith and Chiswick, Labour)
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The sanctioning of Smotrich and Ben-Gvir is necessary, not least because they are the loudest voices calling for annexation of the West Bank. The forced displacement of Palestinians is accelerating and
surely it is time to recognise the sovereignty of the 22% of land in
Palestine that remains before that
is entirely eaten away.
19:18
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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My honourable friend makes, as
ever, an important and powerful point. I will not repeat the
position that we recognise the force
of what my honourable friend says which is that this situation has deteriorated and the settlements
have increased and there is settler violence.
19:19
Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)
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It is a sad day when the UK
government, the governments of Australia, New Zealand, Canada and
Norway feel it necessary to sanction government ministers in the state of Israel, one of our closest allies,
but it is the right thing to do. Can
I cancel be Minister, if I could be so presumptuous, against performative politics and ask him
how many mouths will be fed? How much violence against Palestinians
in the West Bank will be avoided and averted? How much closer are we to
the two-state solution we all want to see as a result of the action
that he has announced?
19:20
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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The honourable gentleman, I'm
grateful for his support. As I said
to her predecessor, I recognise the sanctions are not a remedy and I
hope that it will deter but we have no guarantees. These are important
statements of principles and actions that demonstrate not just to the two individuals but Israeli society
where we stand on these issues.
19:20
Patricia Ferguson MP (Glasgow West, Labour)
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As you will know, many of us have
urged this course of action for some
time now. The imposition of sanctions on these individuals and
others is something that is of reclaimed and I welcome the
statement and the hard work that has
gone into getting us to the point that we are now ad. I understand the importance of working in concert
with allies. If the cooperation of
allies is not forthcoming, will be
unilaterally recognise the state of Palestine?
19:21
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I want speculate too far on hypotheticals but I am a British
minister and I can take decisions on behalf of the British Government. We
will act alone where we have to and we will act whenever we can with
friends and allies. That is the way to do it.
19:21
Rt Hon Kit Malthouse MP (North West Hampshire, Conservative)
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The Minister laid out the disturbing hell that Gaza has become
and the unfolding ongoing disaster in the West Bank. Why has he done
the bare minimum? We all know after the previous rounds of sanctions that there will be no difference on
the ground for the Palestinians. I
said last week and I'm sorry to be cynical but I thought the House was being played. My confident
prediction is the recognition which was advertised for the conference
next week is off the table.
Kindly tell me that I am wrong?
19:22
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I recognise the honourable gentleman has made these points with
some force for the last year but I would caution him to be as cynical
as he is. We are doing everything that we can. We recognise that what we have alleged to be will not be a
remedy in the way I have just said to one of my predecessors to the situation that we find ourselves but
I would encourage them not to be casting cynicism around government
motives.
This government cares deeply about what is happening in Gaza. We are incredibly frustrated
by the scenes that meet us, everybody behind me. I would say
gently, the honourable gentleman has no monopoly on the morality of this
situation.
19:23
Frank McNally MP (Coatbridge and Bellshill, Labour)
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I'm grateful once again to my
honourable friend for coming to the House tonight and for the steps that
have been taken given the despicable actions of the two Israeli ministers
that have been through the course of
this debris. More must be done. They recognise the description by the UN special rapper to, characterising
the approach to eating delivery. --
Special Rapporteur. What further
measures will the Government take to challenge using aid as a cover for
ongoing violence and critically the
recognition of a non-Palestinian state?
19:24
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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We have been very clear about the
nature of the new aid arrangements
involving the funds from Gaza. It
has proven deadly and incapable of supplying aid at the levels which are desperately needed. I have said so repeatedly and we can do this
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with force. Regardless of what one may think
19:24
Rt Hon Sammy Wilson MP (East Antrim, Democratic Unionist Party)
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Regardless of what one may think of the views expressed by the two
of the views expressed by the two ministers who are subject to this today, the fact is that this is nothing new and we've been saying it
for a long time. The question has to
be asked, why now? The Minister must now that this will not bring peace to Gaza and will not stop Israel from pursuing the terror that is
bound to pursue in order to free hostages and release the grip on
Gaza and the danger for Israel.
Is this a case of the Minister
pandering to the Israel voices on
the backbenches and does he not know
and does this not encourage Hamas not to release hostages and not to have a ceasefire?
19:25
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I have spoken about the perilous decline of the situation in the West Bank and the events of the last two
weeks and I've spoken about the importance of coordinating with
allies so I do not think I will have anything further to say.
19:25
Melanie Ward MP (Cowdenbeath and Kirkcaldy, Labour)
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The government is right to
sanction these ministers and the encouragement of mass atrocity crimes is an outrage. Further action
must follow quickly and also I know dredges the news of starving
Palestinians being shot and killed by Israeli soldiers and foreign mercenaries as they tried to access
aid in Gaza. Let me ask the
Minister, as the fabric of life is
being destroyed, if the two-state solution is not an empty slogan, as he says, is this not the time for our country to unconditionally and
immediately recognise the state of Palestine? If this is not the time, when is?
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IP tribute to my honourable
19:26
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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IP tribute to my honourable friend for her work and I recognise
friend for her work and I recognise
that there is nobody in this House who cares more. I pay tribute to her
work which is brave and important.
19:27
Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown MP (North Cotswolds, Conservative)
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Restrictions on aid, on fuel, on
food, and even water in Gaza is
inhumane and unacceptable. If the Minister cannot get a decision next week to recognise the state of
Palestine, will he at least ask for
a collective message to be sent to allies, the Israelis, that the restrictions are unacceptable and unless they are reversed, serious
consequences could follow.
19:27
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I thank the honourable gentleman
for the question. We could have delivered the message with 26 partners on aid and we have been
clear that unless the situation changes, there will be further actions with the leaders of France
and Canada and I will not repeat
19:28
Paul Waugh MP (Rochdale, Labour )
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answers about the conference but I appreciate the focus it puts on an important situation. I warmly welcome the decision to work with
other international allies to sanction the extremist ministers and just to remind ourselves, Smotrich
just to remind ourselves, Smotrich promised that not even a grain of
promised that not even a grain of
Is only matched by his Is only matched by his contempt Is only matched by his contempt for Palestinian lands. He said it is good the war has begun and unfortunate and started the way it
unfortunate and started the way it did.
"Unfortunate." That is how he
described. Will the government seize the moment to recognise the state of Palestine in New York next week?
19:29
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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Palestine in New York next week? I thank my honourable friend. He is very committed to these issues.
He rightly points to some of the rhetoric extremist language which
has been used by these two men but I
will not repeat my answers in relation to the conference next week. We will work with friends and
allies on the approach.
19:29
Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)
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The Israeli ambassador was summoned to meet the Minister two weeks ago and we were asked in that
exchange to wait and see what positive steps would come from the meeting. Since then, we have seen balance and the tax increase by Israel on vulnerable people. The
ambassador has repeatedly rejected the two-state solution and given 230 people have now signed a petition to
expel from the country, have the Minister given any consideration to
further considerations on the ambassador?
19:29
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I summoned the Israeli ambassador
and I set out the strength of use to
the Israeli government that the British Government feels on these questions. -- Views. It is of vital
importance we have an Israeli ambassador. Whatever the views of
this House, it's important to be routine relations. We have an
ambassador from Iran in London and that is important, too. We need to be able to deliver messages to
friends, allies, and those with him we do not enjoy good relations.
We will continue to host ambassadors
because of the importance of maintaining those diplomatic relations.
19:30
Andy McDonald MP (Middlesbrough and Thornaby East, Labour)
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The Minister was absolutely right. I would dispute and anger is not with the Israeli people. It is
with the leaders who use murderous forces to inflict this annihilation
on the Palestinian people. The Minister has said sanctions are not
remedies. He said they are an expression of our opinion. The acid test is whether these measures will
actually have an impact or bring about the end to the killing. I have got to respectfully disagree with
got to respectfully disagree with
the Minister because, as a state party to the Genocide, Geneva, Vienna Convention, the UK has a binding obligation to prevent
genocide, refrain from recognising or assisting in legal situations arising from serious breaches of international law and to avoid trade
and funding or cooperation that enables or legitimises these
violations.
I asked my honourable friend, will he give an undertaking
to the House to come back in short order to announce further sanctions
order to announce further sanctions
that will concentrate the mind? The fear is that these will not. Can you also indicate that whether in the
absence of a firm commitment to recognise the state of Palestine that he will confirm that the government will support a vote in this House by other means to express
this House by other means to express
19:32
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I have come to this House a number of times to talk about things
the British Government has done in relation to the situation. When I say sanctions are no remedy, they
are so often not a remedy in the many circumstances in which we apply
many circumstances in which we apply
them. I feel much better when we announce steps we've taken, it is
regret always that we announce sanctions. And I won't speculate on what further we may introduce in
this case in the way that the honourable gentleman will be
familiar.
I recognise the limitations of sanctions, but under
the circumstances the government judged that we have no choice but to express the strength of our feeling
through sanctions. On the questions
of humanitarian law, this government abides by all of our obligations.
19:33
Martin Vickers MP (Brigg and Immingham, Conservative)
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I have spoken on a number of
occasions in recent weeks about recognition of Palestine. I think we
need to proceed with that and certainly a vote in this House was suggested a moment ago would strengthen the government's position
and I would've thought be helpful in
international negotiations. Invention of the two ministers see a
sanction, is he anticipating that countries will follow suit and what
negotiations are taking place in
order to achieve that goal.
19:34
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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We have had discussions with other countries but I would not wish
at this Dispatch Boxes to speculate on what steps they may take following this.
19:34
Cat Eccles MP (Stourbridge, Labour)
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Can I refer members to my entry in the register of interest. I
recently visited Israel and Palestine on a delegation and met
with opposition leaders. And their top asked from the UK it would be helpful for them was strong
sanctions. I welcome the Minister
statement today, but does he not
agree with me that we should be taking strong sanctions on all ministers of Israeli government? This is not just about rhetoric, it's about action, thousands of
deaths in Gaza.
I think we need to see stronger sanctions on all
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ministers in the Israeli government. I think my honourable friends for
19:35
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I think my honourable friends for the question and for the effort she has put in to travel to the area and
has put in to travel to the area and to meet those in Israel and beyond.
To be clear, these are not sanctions announced on the two ministries that the men represent. These are
sanctions on the men themselves and the extremist rhetoric they are responsible for. So we would keep
further sanctions under review on individuals who conducted rhetoric
of that kind.
19:35
Rt Hon Jeremy Corbyn MP (Islington North, Independent)
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I welcome the sanctions that have been announced on these two
individuals, but I believe they should go further. The Minister said in his statement that there were no
arms now going to Israel, but he was unclear as to the component parts
for F 35 jets that are still in the global supply chain and presumably could be bought by Israel. And he
was silent on the issue of the use of REF and the flights that overfly
Gaza. His security cooperation
continuing with Israel? Is information being given to Israel that they can use to continue the disgraceful and disgusting bombing
of starving people in Gaza?
19:36
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I'm grateful to the honourable
gentleman for the opportunity to clarify. The British Government is not providing information to enable the bombing campaign in Gaza. The
decisions we took in relation to arm suspension behind the whole government, they are not just the
decisions of the Foreign Office and
they represent a sober and reasoned serious analysis of the risks of breaches of humanitarian law. And they bind the government and our
approach. I take brief issue with the right honourable gentleman's
characterisation of my remarks.
I have been clear on the F 35 point. We continue to be clear on that
point and have detailed it --
explained in detail.
19:36
Paula Barker MP (Liverpool Wavertree, Labour)
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I thanked the Minister for coming to the House today to make the
statement and for the strong action this government is taking an to be
clear we hold nothing with extremist or care nothing for peace, but we must go further. The Minister will know the strength of feeling on
these benches on this issue. And particularly on the recognition of the Palestinian state. I re-impress
that upon him and hope that he is here in a fortnight's time as the
Minister who recognised Palestine.
Can the Minister also advised the House what discussions he is having
about the appalling interception of British... Yet again reaching the Palestinian people.
19:37
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I think my honourable friend for
her kind words and while I'm always
glad to come to the House, I can reassure her constituents and those of many members behind me that even
why not glad to come to the House, they would certainly summon me. So I
am always glad to answer questions
from my honourable friend and others behind and in front of me. In
relation to that, I can confirm that the UK pressed the Israeli authorities before the arrival to
ensure that any action taken was in line with international law would be
undertaken with restraint and resolve safely for the passengers on
board.
19:38
Brian Mathew MP (Melksham and Devizes, Liberal Democrat)
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Next week I will be meeting families of some of the remaining Israeli hostages. I'm sure the whole
house will want their safe return. And want peace at last for the
Palestinian population of Gaza in the West Bank. The killing and the
misery and the starvation and the genocide is going on for far too long. Will the government do the
right thing and recognise the state of Palestine now? Four E. Two-state
solution, there must be two-states. -- For a two-state solution.
19:39
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I know so many members of the House, myself included, have met
hostage families who view the events
with terrible dismay and I won't put words in her mouth from this
Dispatch Boxes. Their views are varied, their anger is palpable and
we have them in our thoughts every day. day.
19:39
Kirsteen Sullivan MP (Bathgate and Linlithgow, Labour )
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I think the Minister -- thank the Minister for coming here today and the announcement of sanctions. We
all watched with horror the scenes
of desperate people try and to access food, a very basic thing we
need to survive. While start
Constituents... We can understand why our constituents have a sense of helplessness. We should not have
that in this place, because we have considerable agency. I would like to
ask the Minister what steps he's taking to work with allies and aid organisations to establish secure
maritime core door for humanitarian aid for Gaza.
And does he agree with me and members across his house that
now is the time to recognise an independent sovereign state of
Palestine? Palestine?
19:40
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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Iraq dies -- welcome the timing
of the question will stop we have
agency in the South. It's completely justifiable. As is government we
have sought change, we have been frustrated by how slow this change
has been. We will continue to work for a better situation for those in Gaza and those in Israel as well.
She asked about maritime corridors,
which are an important but relatively peripheral part of any
aid organisation if it is to be at the scale.
There were maritime
corridors supported in the earlier phase of the conflict and it did
important work, but in the end the three Road crossings into Jordan,
Egypt and Israel itself is the most practical route to get Aiden at the scale and flexibility required to
scale and flexibility required to get aid to the strip. -- Aid in.
19:41
Ellie Chowns MP (North Herefordshire, Green Party)
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I welcome the statement today will stop it is long overdue and it
is a bare minimum. On its own it is
likely to do little to stop extremist illegal settlements and violence against Palestinian civilians. Can I ask the Minister,
when will the government implement a ban on settlement goods to stop the
economy that fuels illegal settlements. Will the Minister today
clearly and unequivocally call for illegal settlements to be dismantled
as the ICJ has directed? as the ICJ has directed?
19:42
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I repeat the answer about settlement goods I gave earlier, but I want to be clear to the House that
settlements are illegal under Israeli and international law and
they should be dismantled. they should be dismantled.
19:42
Helen Hayes MP (Dulwich and West Norwood, Labour)
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Can I welcome the sanctions on Israeli government ministers that have been announced today. Those two particular ministers have been
showing the world who they are for a long time. This step, while welcome,
is long overdue. The Minister speaks of the peril of the two-state
solution. There cannot be a two- state solution that is realised without two-states. Can I ask him to
take with him to the summit next week the clearly expressed will of this House that this government
takes a lead in the recognition of the Palestinian state? Can I ask him
is it not time for a full ban on settlement goods? So that we can be
sure that consumers in this country are playing no part in what is a
clear strategic attempt to undermine even the possibility of a two-state solution.
19:43
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I have heard powerful interventions from my honourable
friend and many others across the
House on both the questions on recognition and indeed on settlement goods. The questions surrounding settlement goods are one of
differentiating between Israeli goods is in within Green Line Israel
and those in illegal settlements.
The legal settlement goods are not eligible to the same trade provisions as those from within Green Line Israel and to breach that
labelling requirement, and so not,
to be clear, where the goods are produced is a breach of the relevant regulations.
regulations.
19:44
Mike Martin MP (Tunbridge Wells, Liberal Democrat)
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I would just like to clarify some remarks the Minister said earlier in response to questions from my
honourable friend for St Ives and also in his previous answer. The
trade in goods from settlements
attracts a higher tariff. Can the Minister confirm that the British Government, through raising tariffs
and taxes on this trade is making money out of the settlements? The
illegal settlements in the West Bank. Does he think this is acceptable? acceptable?
19:44
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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Not quite. There are trade arrangements between the UK and
Israel. We consider Israel as Green
Line Israel. We do not consider the Occupied Palestinian Territories and the settlements within them as Green
Line Israel. We have separate arrangements with the Palestinian Authority. Goods produced in illegal
settlements should be labelled as
such. It is not, let me clear by, a moneymaking scheme for the British Government.
19:45
Alistair Strathern MP (Hitchin, Labour)
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Having heard a number of conversations about the importance
of renewed sanctions, Kai wholeheartedly welcome today's
announcement. -- Can I. These go well beyond what will be tolerated, accepted or explained away. I'm glad we played a leading role in pulling
together international partners to take a stand on this. As he pointed out, the humanitarian situation on
the ground is getting increasingly dire for Gazans who have been long deprived of the access to aid they
desperately need. Willis renewed call for international action he has
so clearly lay down today, how are we working with international partners to apply more pressure to get those land routes open and flows
I thank my honourable friend for the commitment to the issue and
important question.
We stand with 26 allies on a statement on
allies on a statement on humanitarian issues. Three leaders,
humanitarian issues. Three leaders, the UK, France, Canada, and five others in relation to the sanctions
on the two men, and I assure the House that we will work with a range
House that we will work with a range of partners in different formats to achieve the objectives I feel are felt across the House. felt across the House.
19:46
Shockat Adam MP (Leicester South, Independent)
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Itamar Ben-Gvir is so extreme
that the Israeli government themselves banned him from the army.
That was three decades ago. I will not extend a warm welcome to the announcement. This is a matter of
trust. The government tells us they
will cease arms sales to Israel. The F-35 parts get there and cause a massacre. The government say they
are appalled but ministers find themselves partying with the Israeli
ambassador. The government tells us that they wish, that they are
seizing trade deals.
-- Stopping trade deals. Then they are sending an envoy to drum up business. Who an envoy to drum up business. Who are they trying to fool?
19:47
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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It is a shame the honourable member does not feel in a position
to welcome the announcements. These
are important steps taken with allies and the UK is leading the world on these issues and will
continue to do so.
19:47
Mary Kelly Foy MP (City of Durham, Labour)
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I welcome the actions that the
Minister announced today but we can
no longer allow starving men, women
and children to be murdered in cold
blood, scrambling for food, while people are being burned alive in their houses. Will the Minister please be boulder and listen to the
voices tonight and lead the way and
call for a state of Palestine, just to give hope to Palestinians already
working for peace and the right to self-determination.
self-determination.
19:48
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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My honourable friend has a long
interest in the communities and I recognise the emotion in her
remarks. We have talked about
sanctions, recognition, and aid. Hope will not feed people in the
Gaza strip. We will not stop until proper aid is provided. I will not repeat the action is about recognition. recognition.
19:49
Munira Wilson MP (Twickenham, Liberal Democrat)
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The sanctions on the appalling
extremists, while extremely overdue,
are welcome and we have been calling for them for 16 months. The Minister acknowledged cross-party support for
a two-state solution and also, "When
we say something, we mean it.." He
has refused to acknowledge these data Palestine or commit to acknowledging it next week and I
remain unconvinced by his reasons
for refusing to do so and so I will try a different tactic. This evening, there are reports that US
ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, has stated the US is no longer pursuing the goal of an independent
state of Palestine.
Will this bring new urgency to recognising the state
of Palestine and for the UK to stand up and assume its historic responsibility in the region when
Trump is abandoning Palestinians? Trump is abandoning Palestinians?
19:50
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I have asked the questions about the approach to the conflict and I
made it as clear as I can to the House about the importance of conducting diplomacy not on the
floor of the House but with allies
and friends and we will see if that approach can be taken next week.
19:50
Oliver Ryan MP (Burnley, Independent)
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I thank the Minister for his
commitment to peace and his unrelenting and tireless work for peace and I say to him that the
two-state solution must be protected and we cannot let that relinquish
and this strong action is right and is welcomed by many in my constituency and so will he keep
getting tougher, get more aid in, stop the settler violence and
illegal settlements and take a message from the House today and from the country to protect Palestinians and their right to self
protection?
19:51
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I thank my honourable friend from
Burnley. He's been committed to these issues and he said that the rate objectives and I will take that
message. message.
19:51
Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)
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Last October, Lord Cameron said that as Foreign Secretary he been
working up plans to sanction extreme
right-wing ministers Smotrich and Ben-Gvir. What did the government so
long?
19:51
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I have heard many reports of what was being done in the Foreign Office
before I got there. On these questions, I think the House will
realise we took a different approach against a whole range and whether it
is returning from then on my first day as a minister of the steps we have discussed already at some
length and so it is interesting to hear the recollections of Lord
Cameron but I'm not sure if we will take many of them on board.
take many of them on board.
19:52
Sarah Owen MP (Luton North, Labour)
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A British surgeon in Gaza described it as a slaughterhouse
with babies starving and roads to aid described as combat zones by the
IDF and so I welcome sanctions on Israeli ministers who stated that they are destroying everything that
remains in Gaza. The actions of all the hallmarks of ethnic cleansing
and genocide and it is clear majority want to recognise the state
of Palestine. Will be Minister for this back to the Prime Minister that
we want to recognise Palestine and we want to recognise it now? we want to recognise it now?
19:53
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I thank my honourable friend for the question and I know how strongly
she feels on these questions and how strongly Lincoln feels on these
questions as many do as well.
19:53
Robin Swann MP (South Antrim, Ulster Unionist Party)
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A two-state solution requires all sides to see that as achievable,
desirable, sustainable. What steps is the government taking to rebuild and support the Palestinian
Authority and how will they ensure I still have no role in Palestinian
governance, as he says in the statement?
19:53
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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The honourable gentleman asks a vital question and it was one of the central focuses of the visit of the
Prime Minister to the UK and the memorandum of understanding we agreed with him and we welcome recent statements of the Palestinian Authority of some vital reforms
including the provisions for welfare and indeed some statements in recent
days that Hamas must have no role in future governments. future governments.
19:54
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Can I thank the Minister for the statement and I certainly welcome
the sanctions against the two ministers and the collective responsibility would dictate that
the whole cabinet is complicit and perhaps the sanctions should have
perhaps the sanctions should have gone further. Human rights abuses are happening right in front of us
are happening right in front of us and settler violence is at record numbers and settlements that are
numbers and settlements that are legal are being constructed. Over 55,000 innocent men, women and children have died and humanitarian
children have died and humanitarian aid is being withheld cruelly.
Does the Minister agree that the recognition of the Palestinian state
recognition of the Palestinian state is the next step that must take place?
19:55
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I thank my honourable friend for this commitment to the issues and
will not add further answers to the recognition I've already given, nor
indeed on where future sanctions might be targeted.
19:55
Susan Murray MP (Mid Dunbartonshire, Liberal Democrat)
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To echo the member opposite,
people in Gaza are starving and those people are children, the sick,
the elderly. The operation of the humanitarian foundation is insufficient and unworkable. Will
the Government not just press for but develop an alternative plan to
take aid into the strip through a humanitarian corridor sponsored by the UN? the UN?
19:55
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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An alternative does exist, an
alternative that is tried and tested and has been developed over the course of the contract and it's
called the UN and the international community and we do not need to reinvent the wheel because the UK
and partners already are willing and
there is British aid ready to go in
places close to the border with the Gaza Strip and that operation must be allowed to proceed. be allowed to proceed.
19:56
Tulip Siddiq MP (Hampstead and Highgate, Labour)
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Listened Palestinian civilians face the horrific choice, either die of starvation or risk being killed
while they queue up for aid and I
welcome the sanctions announced by the Minister today but I want to press for more detail on his engagement with international allies
about putting collective pressure on the Israeli government and the
loving aid into Gaza for those who need it most and are in this
situation through no fault of their own.
19:56
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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As I have said, we have worked with 26 partners on a statement on
humanitarian issues and five on sanctions with three leaders and we
will join friends and allies at the
conference next week and I can assure my honourable friend that we will continue to work with friends
and allies in a variety of formats and I would press the point.
19:57
Freddie van Mierlo MP (Henley and Thame, Liberal Democrat)
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I pay tribute to the work of my
Oxfordshire neighbour, the honourable member, for her work in
honourable member, for her work in
trying to get Palestine recognised and she's brought forward bills to the House for many years to that effect and I extend my thoughts to
all UK Palestinians living here, fearing for their families in Gaza.
Will he tell us if he has heard the wishes of the House tonight and recognising the Palestinian
statehood and will he outline the steps the government is taking to make sure that baby formula in
particular gets through as aid into the Gaza Strip because we are seeing mother is unable to feed their children and it's terrifying to watch on television and I hope you
will press that matter in particular.
particular.
19:58
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I of course came here the voice
of all parliamentarians -- I cannot -- I can hear his voice on this
issue. The honourable gentleman, as others have, presses me on one of
many life-saving elements that are
accompanying going into the strip and the required volumes and whether it is medical division or food or basic nutritional content to deal
basic nutritional content to deal
with the famine that the report warns all of those in Gaza are at risk of, there is urgent need for all such items to get in and I
assure him we press that point.
assure him we press that point.
19:59
Alex Ballinger MP (Halesowen, Labour)
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I welcome the sanctions by the extremist ministers and the dehumanising rhetoric has
contributed to land grabbing and the destructive situation we are seeing in Gaza and so I thank the Minister
and Foreign Secretary for coordinating on this because I know our actions together will be more powerful and so will he coordinate on the devastating humanitarian
situation and the issues with the
private military contractors and we are seeing civilians walking miles to get food and indeed some are
being killed by the IDF are simply queueing to get a meal in their
stead.
Will he coordinate with international partners to put pressure to challenge this illegal
antral mechanism and what steps will he take next week to ensure the UK
recognises the listing instead?
19:59
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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My honourable friend rightly points to the limitations in the
humanitarian fund and it has proven
deadly and incapable of supplying aid to the steel required and we have coordinated with partners in
the way I have described and we will be cochairing with Egypt and having
a working group on the reconstruction next week and they
assure him as I have other members that we will continue to work with international partners on these questions until the situation improves.
20:00
Carla Lockhart MP (Upper Bann, Democratic Unionist Party)
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This government appears willing
to sanction elected Israeli ministers for groups that are openly
supported terrorists who carried out
the October 7 atrocities are being able to perform at events like Glastonbury. It screams of double standards and sadly it is the Jewish
people in the UK left to face the consequences who cannot walk the streets of London without being
harassed. How can the UK sanction people and let those who share the
people and let those who share the
20:01
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I condemn anti-Semitic incidents in London or anywhere else
unreservedly, but let me be clear,
Hamas is prescribed as a whole
organisation in the UK, we do not make the careful delineation this afternoon I have made, the whole block stock Association is described
by the UK office, that has falls under law, doesn't matter whether they are here or not, and they continue to call on the hostages to
return to a ceasefire and have no future role.
20:01
Alex Sobel MP (Leeds Central and Headingley, Labour )
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On 23 May I was to do less exact spot and asked the Foreign Secretary
to sanction, and I thank the government for attaching to the
Palestinian people are in crisis, even this week we saw the Israeli military border British flagged
vessel in international waters and confiscate that vessel. We are seeing a mass starvation event in
Gaza continuing, and as the Minister said, increasing settlement action
in the West Bank. I am proud the Prime Minister, the Prime Minister
of the Palestinian Authority, took them into Downing Street, now we have a trade envoy into Palestine.
The Palestinian is a government
under a patient, as all the effect of government, what is stopping us from recognising them as a legitimate government of the state?
What is the Ministers view of the Palestinian Authority?
20:02
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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The Palestinian Authority, they are a central part of our view for a two state solution, we want to see
them performed and strengthened, we want to see them in control of both Gaza and the West Bank, and the NL
you that -- The MLU that we signed, with the president of the pressing
authority, was part of those efforts.
20:03
Iqbal Mohamed MP (Dewsbury and Batley, Independent)
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Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker,
I will actually pay gratitude to the Minister for his personal efforts to
try and achieve some level of
justice. And the attempts to get aid in Palestine and Gaza to save lives. However, as a new member, I have
been standing here for 11 months. Standing on the coattails of many right honourable honourable members
who have gone before me and are here today, who have been fighting this because, for many years before I arrived.
We have only heard words
afterwords, and rhetoric from the government, without any meaningful action, that has, beyond the age
that was allowed in earlier, saved lives. So, what steps is the
lives. So, what steps is the
government taking to finally get aid into Gaza, to save the babies, the starving children, the mothers, and
all of humanity. Because without that, tens of thousands of people
that, tens of thousands of people will not be here next few days.
20:04
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I thank the honourable gentleman for his kind words. The steps we
have taken have been concrete, but he's right that there remains a
terrible risks risk of famine and other circumstances that for the people when adequate aid is not
allowed in, when proper water and sanitation provision is not provided, the risks of further humanitarian Class 3 are considerable and we will continue to
press these points. With the Israeli government. Alongside our friends and allies.
20:05
Rachael Maskell MP (York Central, Labour )
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If the UK government fails to recognise the state of Palestine
next week, what message will it send to the perpetrators of this genocide? And what message will it
send to the suffering Palestinians? send to the suffering Palestinians?
20:05
Helen Maguire MP (Epsom and Ewell, Liberal Democrat)
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I do not think I have very much to add on our approach to the
conference next week.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
It is vital that we get a clear and accurate picture of what exactly is happening on the ground. This is absolutely essential to ensure
20:05
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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absolutely essential to ensure transparency. What is this government doing to progress access for journalists into Gaza?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
This is a vital question from the
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This is a vital question from the honourable lady. She knows journalists are not able to operate in Gaza and indeed most aid workers are not able to operate in Gaza, provides considerable uncertainty
provides considerable uncertainty about the events that are happening within Gaza. We are calling, both
within Gaza. We are calling, both for journalistic access and aid workers, but vitally, that those
workers, but vitally, that those people are also protected. There
people are also protected. There have been more aid workers killed, more journalists killed, then anyone in this House could accept.
We want
20:06
Kirith Entwistle MP (Bolton North East, Labour)
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in this House could accept. We want people able to go in to deliver aid, to report freely, and to be protected through the conviction
**** Possible New Speaker ****
mechanisms. Every day, I wake to news of further atrocities in Gaza. And
every single week, my constituents come to me asking me to put more
come to me asking me to put more pressure on our government, to go further and faster. Madame Deputy
further and faster. Madame Deputy Speaker, whilst I welcome the news today of sanctions, and I commend
today of sanctions, and I commend the Minister for his hard work, surely this is just the beginning, because just as the Minister said, the gravity of the situation demands
further action.
We must ensure accountability for all breaches of international humanitarian law. So, when will we recognise the state of
20:07
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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when will we recognise the state of Palestine? And how will we ensure vital aid reaches people in Gaza who
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are beyond desperate? I can reassure my honourable
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I can reassure my honourable friend's constituents that she does indeed press me on these issues, as
indeed press me on these issues, as do so many of my own benches and
do so many of my own benches and those across the House. I am not sure I entirely agree with her characterisation that this is the
20:07
Ayoub Khan MP (Birmingham Perry Barr, Independent)
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characterisation that this is the beginning, but I can assure her it is not the end, it is not the end until progress is made.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Can I certainly welcome the statement from the Minister, with the imposition of sanctions on the two Israeli ministers, although late
two Israeli ministers, although late in the day, nonetheless, it requires our gratitude. Given that we have now adopted this new precedence,
now adopted this new precedence, Will the Minister agree that any
20:07
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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Will the Minister agree that any member, using language similar to the two Israeli managers, will receive similar sanctions?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank the honourable gentleman
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I thank the honourable gentleman for his question, and the turn in which he asks it, I will not set out
which he asks it, I will not set out hypothetical circumstances in which we may take further sanction action
we may take further sanction action from this Dispatch Box, but I will reaffirm to him, the question at
20:08
Navendu Mishra MP (Stockport, Labour)
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reaffirm to him, the question at issue in these sanctions is the breach of Palestinian human rights, that is the basis on which will consider further sanctions.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Can I thank the Minister for this important statement? But the reality
important statement? But the reality is that 93% of children in Gaza, around 30,000 children, are facing
around 30,000 children, are facing the critical risk of famine. The Minister has outlined what the
Minister has outlined what the government has been doing in the past few months and continues to do
20:09
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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past few months and continues to do so. But could he tell us that to make sure what the British
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Government do, is to make sure medicine and food is reached to those who are starving. I can assure him we are doing all
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I can assure him we are doing all we can to try and ensure that food
20:09
Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)
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and medicine reaches children in Gaza, and all those in need, and I will return to this House when I
have further notes.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
the Minister is much respected in this House. To ask my question, the Minister has been at pains to emphasise these sanctions remain in
emphasise these sanctions remain in a personal capacity, and not a government capacity, and yet already, media headlines out there, outside, creating the image that
outside, creating the image that Israel is being sanctioned. So, Will
Israel is being sanctioned. So, Will the Minister underline and state the unwavering support Israel has from this minister and this government in their battle for survival against
20:09
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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their battle for survival against the continued Hamas terrorism, so there can be no doubt that this
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nation remains standing with Israel, thank you so much. As ever, I thank the honourable
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As ever, I thank the honourable gentleman for his kind words and his courtesy in this House and I can reaffirm this government supports
20:10
Warinder Juss (Wolverhampton West, Labour)
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reaffirm this government supports the existence of the state of Israel, and will continue to stand
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on its defence when required. Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker. I thank the Minister for his
I thank the Minister for his statement, for his hard work, and I do believe he is generally concerned with what is happening in Gaza. We
with what is happening in Gaza. We all want to -- A two state solution, for Israel and Palestine, and we have all said the illegal settlements of Israel are something
settlements of Israel are something that we condemn we recognise the
that we condemn we recognise the state of Israel.
Can the Minister please give an explanation as to why we cannot now recognise the state of
20:10
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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**** Possible New Speaker ****
Palestine? I thank my honourable friend for his kind words, and his important
his kind words, and his important question. He knows our commitment to a Palestinian state, as set out in
our manifesto and I will not rehearse them. It is our job, as a British Government, to create the conditions in which a Palestinian
state can be viable and sovereign,
and live in safety alongside a safe and secure Israel, and it is here that task that we continue to put our efforts.
20:11
Johanna Baxter MP (Paisley and Renfrewshire South, Labour)
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I thank my honourable friend for his statement and I welcome these
sanctions that have been taken today. Because of their rhetoric and
their actions towards the policy and
people are dangerous and extremist. But this is 1/3 set of sanctions
imposed by a government against violent settlers and settlement entities and it unfortunately has
not stopped food being used as a
weapon of war. So, can I ask my honourable friend, what does he think. Food being used as a weapon
of war? And what more can we do to ensure aid is delivered in Gaza as a matter of urgency.
matter of urgency.
20:12
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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My honourable friend is exactly right, to highlight the importance
that aid is not used in service of the military or political objective.
It must be delivered in a principal way, in accordance with humanitarian principles. The United Nations and
our international NGO partners have
long experience of delivering aid in that way, and that is why I have said over the course of the evening, Madame Deputy Speaker, that we have
an alternative that will work to the GHS, that is the UN supported operation.
20:12
Lillian Jones MP (Kilmarnock and Loudoun, Labour)
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Thank you very much, Madame Deputy Speaker, I welcome the Minister's statement to the House tonight at the steps the government
have taken thus far. The humanitarian citizens must not be treated as a thread, can the
Minister set out concrete steps the government is taking to make sure
aid reaches Gaza without interference by Israel Defence Forces, to carry out a life-saving
work, without fear of injury or life, and to secure the release of hostages back to their families, and you finally recognise the state of
Palestine.
-- And to finally recognise. recognise.
20:13
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I thank my honourable friend for
the question. In relation to a provision in Gaza, there has been, as I know my honourable friend will be aware, much discussion on the
importance of there being multiple distribution sites far in excess of those currently available, that
helps manage the pressures provide more humane conditions for aid
delivery, and that is what we want to see.
20:13
Sam Rushworth MP (Bishop Auckland, Labour)
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Can I thank the Minister for his diligence and patient analysis tonight, and for excellent
statement. I agree with every word of it and I appreciate the actions the government is taking to sanction it to ministers, both of whom have
expressed genocidal intent. The Minister is also correct in saying the two state solution is in peril
for some seems from today there is an overwhelming majority in this place that support immediate
recognition of Palestine and I sense from his answers that the government is moving in that direction.
But
what can he also do around the ICJ judgement, that the West Bank has been annexed, and what more can we
do to ensure that others are punished for their crimes in the West Bank? West Bank?
20:14
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I thank my honourable friend for his kind words and his question. I
am sure, with the discretion of the Speaker, I will be back in this House next week to discuss the events of the conference in greater
detail. On the question of the advisory opinion, which, as my honourable friend nose, is a far- reaching and complex advisory
opinion. We will return to this House when we are in a position to give a response to what is a complex
and novel legal opinion.
and novel legal opinion.
20:15
Olivia Blake MP (Sheffield Hallam, Labour)
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I thank the Minister for his strong statement today and for the sanctions he has outlined. I
listened carefully to his words, spoke with the risk of empty slogans
on the path to a two state solution. I agree, but I fear we will be the
last generation of diplomats and politicians with the option of recognition of the state of Palestine on the table. Will he reflect on that before the meeting next week?
20:15
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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My honourable friend asks an
important question. It is very much on the minds of all of those in the government who work on these issues,
that the viability of a two state solution requires physical facts on
the ground, it requires territory for two states, and clearly, illegal settlements, proceeding at the rate
I described in the statement, is an impediment and a threat to that two impediment and a threat to that two
20:16
Claire Hughes MP (Bangor Aberconwy, Labour)
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I thank my friend for this
statement? This government said it would take concrete actions and it
has, but given the urgency of the situation facing millions of people
in Gaza with starvation around the corner, and what we know about the Israeli government and what they
have done so far, could die asked the minister to tell us what next?
20:16
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I thank my honourable friend for
her kind words and her commitment on these issues. I can reassure her
constituents that she raises them with me regularly. I am sure I will
return to this house next week to talk about the conference, and
indeed, the next steps. I hope that
the situation improves, that we see age reaching Gaza, that we see a ceasefire and that we can start to
talk about these issues in a more
measured way in this house, reflecting that the situation is not as urgent as it is today, but until as urgent as it is today, but until that time, I will be returning to the house.
20:17
Kim Johnson MP (Liverpool Riverside, Labour)
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Thank you. I really welcome the
Minister's announcement on the sanctions of these two racist and
extremist ministers, but it does not go far enough. It is not going to stop the expansion or the settler
violence because we know that the expansion is sanctioned with
supporters, but what we need now is a recognition of a Palestinian state, and I hope that the Minister
comes back here next week to inform the house that has happened, and if
that is the case, what is the next step once recognition is agreed? step once recognition is agreed?
20:17
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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My honourable friend is committed to these issues, though I am sure
she wouldn't expect me to speculate about what hypothetical neck steps
would be. I am sure I will be returning to this house to discuss these issues with her.
20:18
Mark Sewards MP (Leeds South West and Morley, Labour)
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Thank you very much. I refer
members to my register of interest, having visited Israel and Palestine
a few weeks ago. I welcome the Minister's statement today.
Sanctioning these two extremist individuals is exactly the right thing to do. They are enemies of
peace and no two state solution will ever be achieved while they are in post. It is also clear to me that
Netanyahu relies on these two ministers for his political survival. And the feeling on the
ground in Israel amongst ordinary Israelis backed up by consistent
homing is that they do not support their Prime Minister and they will change their government at the first
opportunity in the next election.
So, will the Minister set out how
the government cannot only sanction those that seek to destroy peace, but also support those who champion
moderation, who champion peacemaking in the region, both in Palestine and
in Israel?
20:19
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I am grateful to my honourable friend for his question and the
travel that he undertook recently. I won't be drawn on questions of Israel democratic process. Their
elections are a matter for them, but I can assure him that we do everything we can to try to support peacemakers on both sides of this
peacemakers on both sides of this conflict to find common cause.
20:19
Harpreet Uppal MP (Huddersfield, Labour)
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Absolutely welcome the sanctions and can I pay tribute to my honourable friend for all his hard
work and the work of officials? Thank you for everything you are doing. Can I ask him, as other
colleagues have to ensure that we can recognise Palestine at the UN conference, and it will be a big moment. And finally, if I could just
mention the US which is a key
partner in this work, and you will know, the Minister will know that the US ambassador to Israel has set
the goal of an independent Palestinian state is no longer
something that they are looking at, so what conversations are happening on that?
20:20
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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My honourable friend is very
kind, and I am grateful to her words and she is welcome to call me
honourable friend. The questions that she raises are key. Of course
we discuss these issues with our
friends and allies. Not all of our positions are the same, but I will always set out with clarity from the
despatch boxes and in all of my diplomatic engagements the position of the UK government.
20:21
Tracy Gilbert MP (Edinburgh North and Leith, Labour)
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I welcome the sanctions outlined by my honourable friend and I thank
him for all the work that he has done with his commitment to the
Palestinian people, and the concerns that he has on a regular basis. Action has been required for some
time. The up-and-coming conference
on a two state solution is an opportunity to work with allies or alone to recognise the Palestinian
state, and can I add my voice to that request, and can I ask my right honourable friend, if not then, when?
20:21
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I think my honourable friend for
her kind words and recognise her feeling around questions of
recognition as I said earlier. I'm sure I will be back in this house to continue to discuss these issues
with her.
20:22
James Asser MP (West Ham and Beckton, Labour)
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I very much welcome the
recognition of the statement today on what is happening in the West Bank with settler violence following
the disgraceful work that we saw over Easter, the suppression of
worship, so I am very pleased with the sanctions we are seeing today. My honourable friend talks about a
two state solution. As other members have said, you need to states for a
two state solution. What we are seeing is a clear attempt to stop
there being a viable Palestinian state.
What my constituents want, what the Palestinian people want is
recognition. We need to do more. Next week is the perfect opportunity for us to recognise the Palestinian
state.
20:22
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I thank my honourable friend. He
points to his long record with which I am very much familiar of pressing
these points, and he is right to say that a two state solution clearly
requires two states, and it is vital that nobody forecloses that
possibility. possibility.
20:23
Ms Polly Billington MP (East Thanet, Labour)
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I welcome the sanctions which need to be seen in the context of £129 million of extra aid, the
refunding of UNRWA, the suspension of arms trades, and also importantly, the suspension of the
trade negotiation. That is the context of the action by this government. However, the suffering
goes on, and it is not accidental.
It is deliberate. The achievement of the sanctions today is because this
government worked with other governments. We know we achieve more together than we do alone.
In that
context, with the summit next week, can the Minister take the message
from this house across this house and from all of our constituencies
and communities, that Britain wants a recognition of the Palestinian state unequivocally and
unconditionally. That is a message from Britain to the summit next week.
20:24
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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My honourable friend speaks with
real thought, force and authority, and I have heard her message
clearly. clearly.
20:24
Graeme Downie MP (Dunfermline and Dollar, Labour)
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This is really a government that continues to perpetrate violence against Palestinian people which is
against the interest of Israeli people while we know Hamas is only interested in death and destruction.
I welcome the action today is a sign of willingness to take action and ask anyone who might be a block to
his two state solution. The Minister has already had across the house has been urged to take specific steps,
but will he confirm what actions are open to him to support and
strengthen the overwhelming work of those who want a future and are able those who want a future and are able to take against anyone who is a part of the two state solution in future.
20:25
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I thank my honourable friend for
the question he rightly focuses on, looking at how we maintain the
viability of the two state solution. That is the only route to peaceful
harmony, to stay side-by-side, and it is to that objective that our efforts are focused.
20:25
Dr Scott Arthur MP (Edinburgh South West, Labour)
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I thank the Minister for his
leadership on this issue. One of the most regular attendees in my
surgeries as a Palestinian woman. She has lost both friends and family
in this conflict. Her cousin died recently, and each time she comes,
it gets harder for me to tell her that this government is doing all it
can to protect the lives and rights of Palestinians. On Saturday, she came to my surgery and bought a gift
because it received.
She was also angry and tearful, and I was ashamed
because I could not tell her that our government was doing all that we
could in this situation. Delivering aid by sea and air is inefficient, but surely efficiency is not the aim
here. Surely inefficient aid is
better than no aid. Will he look at this again with international partners to see which aid we can
partners to see which aid we can deliver to these people?
20:26
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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My honourable friend talks with the painful authority of someone who
has taken a lot of time to get to know someone facing truly dreadful circumstances in Gaza, and I am
grateful to all of those on my
benches and beyond who do that engagement and share it with me, and
I recognise how heavily the responsibilities away on us, both as constituency MPs and for those of us
in the government. It is not simply inefficiency that makes me
repeatedly council this house not to focus on and sea routes.
We do keep
them under regular review and
discuss them with partners, particularly with our friends and allies in Jordan who have conducted
important left of aid into the Gaza
Strip. The reason I council house in the way that I do is that I see so many of these cases. I am so
conscious of the aggregate demands,
and if we can get aid safely into Gaza consistent with humanitarian principles, then of course we will, and I assure him in his constituent
that we keep that under regular review, but I have to be honest with the house that it is road routes
that will meet the scale required.
that will meet the scale required.
20:28
Dan Tomlinson MP (Chipping Barnet, Labour)
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May I thank the Minister for his work on so many important issues in
the region, and for taking the time to take questions so thoroughly from
all sides of the house? I welcome the appointment which draws a
distinction between the far right extremist ministers and the people
of Israel as a whole. We desperately need a ceasefire. We need more aids
to alleviate horrendous human suffering, and we need the hostages
still being held to be released.
What further steps will the government take towards achieving
all of those objectives?
20:28
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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I thank my honourable friend for
his kind words, for his commitment
right across the region. He has been raising concerns of his constituents
since we were both first elected, and I'm sure he will continue to do so. I know that many people are
focused not just on the horrors we have discussed in relation to aid
provision, not just on violence, but on the circumstances of hostages.
They remain in our mind. There was a British mother waiting for the safe
return of her son, and we will not
cease until we secure the release.
cease until we secure the release.
20:29
Joe Powell MP (Kensington and Bayswater, Labour)
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I welcome the sanctions and the coalition to exert maximum pressure.
It is really significant on human
rights corruption and other issues. Next week's conference will be critical to defend the vision and
viability of two states living side-by-side in peace, so surely it
is time to recognise the timeline to
bring it about, and can I ask the Minister to confirm that it is the
government's objective. government's objective.
20:30
Mr Hamish Falconer MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Lincoln, Labour)
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He has extensive experience of international coalition building, and indeed, of taking steps against
those who support corruption or, as
in this case, breach human rights. I can confirm that we will be working with our friends and allies in order
to preserve a path to a two state solution at the conference next week in the way that we set out.
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That concludes the statement and I thank the Minister and members for their perseverance on this
their perseverance on this statement. We now move on to motion
statement. We now move on to motion
statement. We now move on to motion The question is on the order paper. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye". Of the contrary, "No". I
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"Aye". Of the contrary, "No". I think The ayes have it. The ayes have it. I beg to move this House do now
20:31
Adjournment: Eighth anniversary of the Grenfell Tower fire
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adjourn. The question is this House do now adjourn.
20:31
Joe Powell MP (Kensington and Bayswater, Labour)
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Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker.
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Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker. On Saturday, we mark eight years since 72 people lost their lives in the Grenfell Tower fire. Eight years
of fighting for truth, eight years without justice. And eight years of
two often glacial change. This will be the last anniversary before the
tower starts to come down. It will no longer stand as that painful
symbol of injustice, greed and
impunity, on the London skyline. And
as the tower begins to be deconstructed, it is even more important that in this House, we remember the 72 people who lost
their lives.
And I'm sure this House will continue to stand united with
their families, with the survivors, and with the community, until justice is served, and systematic
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changes implemented. I thank my honourable friend for
making a powerful open on this really important and tragic anniversary that is coming before
anniversary that is coming before us, eight years. Of the 72 people, 18 children lost their lives. Of the
18 children lost their lives. Of the 72 people, 37 were disabled and 15 of them died. Does my honourable
of them died. Does my honourable friend agree that even though the tower will come down in a few years,
tower will come down in a few years, the trauma, the suffering, the pain and anguish, will live with the
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and anguish, will live with the people of Grenfell for many years to come. I thank the Chair of the Select
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I thank the Chair of the Select Committee for her intervention. I completely agree. The legacy must be
completely agree. The legacy must be the systemic change that I talked about. Many of the people who lost their lives in Grenfell were
disabled. I welcome the government's commitment to lame regulations that mandate personal emergency
mandate personal emergency
I know the Minister has taken fire safety in his brief and will look closely in terms of resources to make sure those are actually
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implemented and available for disabled people. First of all, can I commend the honourable gentleman for bringing
honourable gentleman for bringing this forward. It is appropriate and right this House should recall those
right this House should recall those tragic times on June 14, 2017, and
tragic times on June 14, 2017, and pay tribute to those 72 innocent lives that were lost. I think the
lives that were lost. I think the House is united in stating that. And
House is united in stating that.
And thinking of those families. Although it might be 2017, those memories linger, linger long, for the
linger, linger long, for the families who lost loved ones. The
families who lost loved ones. The CPS have implicated that the
potential charges will not be expected until late 2026, which will be almost a decade from when it first happened. Does the honourable
member not agree that more efforts must be made to expedite the
process? To ensure that family and friends have the justice and closure they need to grieve and move on with
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their lives. I thank the honourable member for
expressing his solidarity and indeed he is right, the public inquiry reported in December, the simple
truth is the deaths that occurred
truth is the deaths that occurred were all avoidable. I know we must respect the criminal investigation and must avoid saying anything that jeopardises that process. But on
jeopardises that process. But on behalf of our community, I simply say to our government, but until
say to our government, but until there is criminal accountability for those responsible, there will be no
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justice. I thank my honourable friend for giving way and I would like to send
giving way and I would like to send my condolences to the family, friends and loved ones to all of those who lost their lives eight
those who lost their lives eight years ago, but does my honourable friend agree with me that if justice is to be delivered, then the government needs to think very
carefully about delivering on Hillsborough law and duty of
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candour. I thank my honourable friend for
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I thank my honourable friend for that intervention. I absolutely agree. I applaud the Prime Minister's Questions commitment to
Minister's Questions commitment to bring in at the Hillsborough law. It was a party conference at September
last year, when he said the law was
for the subpostmasters, the rising scandal, -- The horizon scandal, infected blood, Windrush, Grenfell Tower, all the countless injustices over the years, suffered by the
over the years, suffered by the working people at the hands of those
working people at the hands of those who are supposed to serve them.
Those were the prime ministers words, and I agree we should see
words, and I agree we should see
words, and I agree we should see that law, beside a mechanism, so that victims can be independently issued that inquiry recommendations actually deliver that meaningful change. It is the sad truth is, we
change. It is the sad truth is, we
know that -- If we know that the lessons, it is likely the Grenfell tragedy could have been prevented,
so we cannot allow that to happen again.
Madame Deputy Speaker, from
the community of North Grenfell,
Grenfell will be in our hearts, and to select a fitting tribute to the
memory of the 72, but our continuing
support today. I thank the Minister, the Minister for safety, and many other elected officials for their
visit to North Kensington, their engagement with the community. They will know that as the towers pulled
down, it is vital that community
health services, as well as mental health services, are maintained and I hope our NHS leadership working
with the government, can make sure those services remain at least for the period of deconstruction.
It is also essential that survivors have
the monitoring they need to spot and address long-term health conditions that may arise. But for the
residents around the tower, change has also been too long in coming. I meet regularly with the residents of the Lancaster West estate, the
shortest estate, and many others, on the Lancaster West estate, there is
now the prospect of an £85 million gap in the budget, to complete the major works that were promised by local and central government, after
the fire.
Clearly, no project of this scale should be overrunning so dramatically. But that promise to
residents must be kept. So I call on
the Minister to do all he can, working with RB KC, to work on a
But it is much wider than Lancaster West, I have dealt with thousands of
housing cases since being elected, relating to poor quality repairs, damp and mould and a culture of disrespect. Especially for social housing tenants.
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I would like to firstly thank you for, thank the honourable member for bringing this debate, it years later
bringing this debate, it years later we remember the deep sorrow and stand with the survivors and families, and Grenfell really did
families, and Grenfell really did expose failures in Building Safety Act massive social inequality. At the time, I was a teacher at the --
the time, I was a teacher at the -- At the deaths of those children were
At the deaths of those children were tragic.
But we need to find those people social justice they deserve, but also make sure it doesn't happen again.
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again. I thank my honourable friend for that intervention and I do applaud
the many steps the government is taking on this issue, for example, on professionalising the housing
on professionalising the housing sector, and implementing the law on damp and mould, because the truth
is, she states, all of us in this House know that a case like this
House know that a case like this
could easily happen again. And in my constituency, that means RBKC, Genesis, Peabody, and others, whose
purpose should be to serve the
residents, but you often their lives is -- But too often make their lives a misery.
And we are trying to
address the systemic failure in the community around Grenfell. Madame Deputy Speaker, there will also be
no justice until the painfully slow process of mediating unsafe buildings across the country is
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complete. Thank you for giving way and for securing this debate. Last week, the
securing this debate. Last week, the residents of over 40 flats in
residents of over 40 flats in Worcester were severely affected after inspection of unmediated cladding found such severe firing hazards, and immediate probation
hazards, and immediate probation notice was issued. How this was able to happen is a question that must be
answered, but in the meantime, does my honourable friend agree with me
that the building managers in this case, First Port, must put the residents first and not allow legal disputes or allocation of blame slow
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down the urgent work of making the building safe and allowing residents to return home? I thank my honourable friend for
that intervention, and I agree, it is staggering to me that hundreds of thousands of people are still living in buildings like the one he
describes, with major fire defects. Members from across this House, up and down the country, will have constituents affected, people trapped in unsellable properties,
trapped in unsellable properties,
leaseholders on the hook for none cladding defects, and social housing providers sinking funds into
remediation, that could be spent on building the desperately needed new
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social homes our country needs. Abbott like to thank my honourable friend and maybe for
securing this debate, and for realising, from the first day he was
realising, from the first day he was elected, he is not only the number for Kensington and Bayswater, but the Member for Grenfell. It is good that the government is implemented
that the government is implemented in all 58 recommendations of phase 2
of the inquiry. Does he agree with me that the four-year timetable is a long time to wait, including the
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long time to wait, including the eight years that have already passed? I thank my honourable friend for
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I thank my honourable friend for that very valid point. It is good news that the government had
accepted all of the recommendations. And I applaud them for taking time
And I applaud them for taking time to come back in detail, rather than rushing a response. But it is absolutely vital that we see
timelines kept to, and I think the example of the slow pace of change on remediation is a warning to us
on remediation is a warning to us
all, that this has to be gripped from the centre if we want to see that systemic change happening.
And
to give another example, in my
constituency, shared ownership leaseholders, at Shaftesbury Place, a property managed by Notting Hill Genesis, saw their building
insurance saw by Reddit over 2000%, that was £5000 a year, increased, in individual service charges. Those
residents can test the report, and I hope Notting Hill Genesis will work
out a reasonable solution. But that
is an example of what has to be fixed, in the building insurance
market, as we had to do with flooding, may require government intervention, but I know the Minister agrees that we have to quicken the pace of remediation.
And
I would urge him to consider what more the government can do to underwrite the major works now, so
that people do not have to wait, and I think the best example of that would be to widen access to the
building safety fund, to Social Housing Act does, so they can put
more capital into maintaining their current homes and building new homes. I know the government is also
very focused on giving the building safety regulator the resources it needs, so that we rightly enforce higher standards post Grenfell, but
we also accelerate housebuilding and
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avoid unnecessary delays. Thank you for giving way and I thank him for securing time for this
thank him for securing time for this debate, and I do hope we continue to debate this in years to come and we start to talk about what has come
start to talk about what has come out of this in terms of recommendations, the lives it saves and the changes. Eight years on, in
and the changes. Eight years on, in Scotland, there 5,500 properties
Scotland, there 5,500 properties My honourable friend sense of
My honourable friend sense of frustration about the pace of remediation in England, particularly in his own constituency.
In Scotland, after eight years, just one building has been mediated.
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one building has been mediated. Hopefully England is faster than that. I thank my honourable friend for
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I thank my honourable friend for sharing those statistics for and I
think the reality is, the money is there, what we need to do was go
building by building and solve the problems. And I think that is where I welcome the government's emphasis on devolving civil decision-making,
for example, to a London remediation board and that might be something to look at for other parts of the
country. I am sure the House would also appreciate an update on the Prime Minister's welcome commitment on September 4, for all the companies found by the inquiry, to
have been part of these failings,
will stop being awarded government contracts.
As the inquiry said, the companies that made the cladding and insulation products are Conic,
seller text, and behaved with
systematic dishonesty and engaged in
deliberate and sustained strategies, misrepresented data, and misleading the market.
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One of the other things I
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One of the other things I remember about the inquiry was the
mention of the corporate growth from
mention of the corporate growth from some developers, and is right that the government will be looking at banning those contracts. Another
thing many other survivors have asked for is around prosecutions to come forward. Does my honourable friend agree that in addition to the
friend agree that in addition to the government banning those companies from receiving additional contracts, there should be additional funding to the Met police to swiftly bring justice to those that were
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responsible for this? I thank my honourable friend for that intervention and I know it is
that intervention and I know it is one of the biggest teams that the Met police have under operation and of course, it's right that they keep the funding in place, until it comes
the funding in place, until it comes to fruition. And I agree with her that we must make sure the taxpayer
money is no longer going to those companies, and I hope the Minister can give a reassuring summer
timeline, and I also think the
Minister can give those reassurances that under the new system of product regulation, the same mistakes will not be made again.
Real change is
not be made again. Real change is
I've always believed that while the Ark of the modern universe is long, it bends towards justice, and for
that, we need to act now in a way that will protect people in the future, so as I mentioned earlier,
the introduction of the Hillsborough award, a national oversight
mechanism, and the government's own reporting on recommendations and how
they will be implemented will absolutely give reassurance to people that this cannot happen
again.
Grenfell was the most
devastating fire since World War II, and the pain can never be erased,
and I want to give words to who gave
us hope. There is a new youth mayor for Kensington and Chelsea. I attended an oversight with her and other young leaders at take Britain
last night, and these were part of her words. They trim the budget not
the risk. Then signed it safely with
the flick of a rest. But it was fine. They saved a few grand.
Who
needs an alarm when profit was the main plan? We are supposed to give
our trust to people who don't care about our well-being. No matter how many complaints they will fail soon, exactly what the residents were
foreseeing. And they sit in a
meeting for love complaints but they are disagreeing. Ending in disaster
with many fleeing. 72 couldn't make
it out alive. A life lost is a light lost. But that doesn't mean the
fights lost.
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Thank you. I am grateful to my honourable friend from Kensington
honourable friend from Kensington and Bayswater for securing this opportunity to mark this weekend's eighth anniversary of the tragedy of grain felt our and the loss of 72
grain felt our and the loss of 72 innocent lives, 18 of them as we have heard children. Time has not diminished the horror, the pain of
diminished the horror, the pain of the impact of that day, the lives of families and the community changed
families and the community changed forever, and the honourable gentleman has raised an awful lot of
gentleman has raised an awful lot of important points and I hope I can cover all of them, but they are in keeping with his outstanding advocacy for his community.
There is
advocacy for his community. There is no member I speak to more than him and we will be together again tomorrow, and he pushes and presses
tomorrow, and he pushes and presses me quite rightly in the interest of his community day in day out, and I want to recognise that on the record
want to recognise that on the record today. It is the community as well because it has been eight long
years, and we have campaigned and fought for truth, for justice and for change, and the deputy minister
and I are resolute in listening to them, ensuring that the next-of-kin
and voices are heard at the heart of government, and we will continue to
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tragedy. I thank him for this update on
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I thank him for this update on this, but one thing we had the Select Committee was for far too
Select Committee was for far too long, social housing tenants were
long, social housing tenants were being ignored and dismissed. There isn't any recommendation looking at
isn't any recommendation looking at race discrimination, but does he agree with me that that was a
agree with me that that was a contributing factor in terms of the discrimination act that BME
residents faced?
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residents faced? With families and next-of-kin, the demographics both in terms of
race speak their own story, similarly, with the turnaround this
ability as well, that is informed policy which I will talk to shortly,
but our around residents in social housing which I will turn to in a couple of minutes. I just wanted to
say, because I was here in the very
early stages as a Member of Parliament in 2017, and as I have
said in every debate of this kind, if we have said, I know exactly
if we have said, I know exactly
where I was sat, but 10 m from here, if we said to ourselves then that in eight years, we would have achieved
as little as we had, I think we would have thought that was a significant failure, and I want those watching the debate to know
that we understand that my honourable friend said progress is glacial, and that is exactly right.
It behoves us to change that with intent, and that is my commitment.
Last September, as we have heard, the enquiry will be published, and
this is a driver for action, and those findings were clear. The
system failed at every point. Families were failed, resident voices were ignored, dishonest
practices were propagated. The prime minister has apologised on behalf of the British state as part of the failures that led to avoidable
deaths, and I want to repeat the prime ministers words that it should
never have happened.
In terms of our response to that enquiry, we publish that in February. As colleagues of
said, we accepted that we deliver on 58 recommendations and go further
through a order approach to reform, including with regards to construction products. We published
our progress report on delivery and we will continue to report on a
quarterly basis. The next report in September, we will also publish our
full implantation plan, setting out how we will deliver the recommendations, and I agree that
there must be a system change.
I
agree with my friend from Hammersmith that it is a wrong time, and I know having spoken to bereaved survivors that they are frustrated
that some of these recommendations will take time, and the commitment I will make this despatch boxes is
that nothing will take a day longer than it has to take and working with agency and intent, we will be transparent as we do.
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I am thankful to the Minister and I appreciate that he is working
I appreciate that he is working around the clock on this and this is very important to him in terms of
the big challenges in the portfolio. Does the Minister agree though that because there are so many competing
because there are so many competing demands including licking at
demands including licking at building safety, including fire safety, one of the clear ways to make sure that the government
make sure that the government continues to keep focus on this is with a national mechanism which will help the government in terms of
help the government in terms of making sure that there are clear deadlines and timeframes for these recommendations which the government
have rightly accepted.
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I am really grateful that the honourable lady pre-empts my next
point. The point for Edinburgh South West, when he says we will have these opportunities to debate it, we
have committed to an annual debate about this progress, and we will do
so until we have delivered. But turning to oversight because we are committed to transparency, accountability and inscrutability,
it is right that the community, having been failed and the way they have, what to see very clear accountability. We will record
recommendations made by public enquiries by next summer, backdating
at 2024, so there will be some public tracking of enquiry recommendations which meet the commitment under the grain felt our
commitment under the grain felt our
review, and I will refer to the points I have made the Select Committee.
The Cabinet Office. As
part of its ongoing work is looking at how to improve responsibility so
that actions can be taken more clearly, and I wouldn't want to run
ahead of that, and to address the point from Liverpool Riverside, that we remain fully committed to Hillsborough Mall which will include
candour for public servants and sanctions for those who refuse to
comply, but the justice piece is the honourable members talks with real
power on, I am conscious that when I talked to bereaved survivors about whatever the matter of the day is,
they always say to me yes, but that is not justice yet, and I know that in the prime minister acknowledged
last year that the enquiry, while exposing the truth, does not yet bring the justice that families rightly deserve, and I am again
aware of the frustration in this area and the strong feeling that accountability is yet to be achieved.
We support the
Metropolitan police service as they conduct their investigation and we will continue to do that. I want to
20:56
Alex Norris MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Nottingham North and Kimberley, Labour )
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touch on the tower itself, as this will be a very poignant anniversary
will be a very poignant anniversary because it will be the one where the tower is as it is for the final
tower is as it is for the final time, and we will continue to work with bereaved families and survivors, next-of-kin and residents
survivors, next-of-kin and residents as we prepare work to carefully take down Grenfell in the autumn. And as
down Grenfell in the autumn. And as we look to the future, we are committed to supporting independent
committed to supporting independent memorial commissions in their work to create a fitting and lasting
memorial determined by the community, and the Deputy Prime Minister and I will continue, as we
Minister and I will continue, as we have throughout, meet with whoever he wants to to act on the issues that we are raising, but more importantly, that they raise with
importantly, that they raise with us, and I know there is a lot of anxiety that as this tower is carefully taken down, that that will
be a forgotten moment for the
Grenfell community, and I want to give that assurance.
With these colleagues behind me, I know this
will not be the case, but it won't be for the government either, but as the member for Vauxhall and
Camberwell Green said, this is a moment of trauma for individuals. It is crucial that really good mental-
health support is available for the community. I am raising this, as is
my friend from West Lancashire in the Ministry of health and social
care with the Integrated Care Board to make sure that the right mental health services are there, to make sure that the right screening
facilities are there, to make sure there is the right screening for children and young people which is such a community priority, and I
will work with him in that venture to make sure those healthcare services are there.
We failed the
leadership to change, and we still hear from too many residents that they are not getting the experience
that they should. The Deputy Prime Minister have become an exemplar challenge as a fitting challenge,
and we will hold them to account and
tell residents feel the change. Residents will befall even that
terrible night in 2017 have lived on a building site for a long time for
they say that to me every time I see them. It is a very significant gap
either way, and I will continue to
work with him, with the residents Association because I know we
presence at every opportunity on this, and with the council themselves, on how to take this issue forwards.
The honourable
gentleman mentioned peeps. That has
. We are looking to lay secondary
legislation as sooner we can do, and I am committed to working with disability groups to make sure that
the guidance in the toolkit and its imitation is as good as possible, and we have committed funding this year and any future funding will be
part of the spending review process which is coming tomorrow. I agree with the points on the pace of
remediation. I inherited a trajectory that took us into the 2040s.
Our remediation exhilaration plan set buildings above 80 m with
unsafe cladding in the government scheme concert in is that 2029, and we will be updating our exhilaration
plan this summer to push even further on what we can do to get quick remediation, and he mentioned social housing and the challenges
around social housing and the impact on remediation but on building and
those points are very well made, and we will announce longer term plans
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in that space shortly. Very briefly, I thank the Minister for being generous. One
Minister for being generous. One issue constantly raised by RSL
issue constantly raised by RSL providers is the fact they are not able to apply for the building safety remediation. Is this something we will be seeing an
something we will be seeing an update on in recent weeks and maybe
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announcements tomorrow? They can access the building
safety scheme, but I have heard from them that the circumstances that they do that with, declaring a
they do that with, declaring a degree of financial distress is very difficult for them to do, and I understand that. Her suggestion has
understand that. Her suggestion has a lot of merit in it. I couldn't be drawn ahead of any events that are
drawn ahead of any events that are coming, but all I will say is that the suggestion has an awful lot of merit in it.
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I just wanted to recognise that so many leaseholders in my
so many leaseholders in my constituency have been affected either delay in remediation. Their lives are on hold because they can't
lives are on hold because they can't sell their flat and they can't move food so we need to look at what we
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food so we need to look at what we can do to try and support these things going forward. And those trapped are living
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And those trapped are living under intolerable circumstances, and as part of the update will have more about what we can do to provide them
about what we can do to provide them To conclude, this has been a hugely important debate, we will have many
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important debate, we will have many more, and work our hardest to deliver justice for the community as soon as possible can. The question is at this House do
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The question is at this House do now adjourn. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye". The ayes have
21:07
Oral questions: Energy Security and Net Zero
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21:07
Alex Norris MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Nottingham North and Kimberley, Labour )
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This debate has concluded