All 31 Parliamentary debates on 13th Jul 2020

Mon 13th Jul 2020
Mon 13th Jul 2020
Mon 13th Jul 2020
Stamp Duty Land Tax (Temporary Relief) Bill
Commons Chamber

2nd reading & 2nd reading & 2nd reading: House of Commons & 2nd reading
Mon 13th Jul 2020
Stamp Duty Land Tax (Temporary Relief) Bill
Commons Chamber

Committee stage:Committee: 1st sitting & 3rd reading & 3rd reading: House of Commons & Committee: 1st sitting & Committee: 1st sitting: House of Commons & Committee stage & 3rd reading
Mon 13th Jul 2020
Mon 13th Jul 2020
Mon 13th Jul 2020
Mon 13th Jul 2020
Mon 13th Jul 2020
Mon 13th Jul 2020
Business and Planning Bill
Lords Chamber

Committee stage:Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords & Committee stage
Mon 13th Jul 2020
Supply and Appropriation (Main Estimates) Bill
Lords Chamber

1st reading (Hansard) & 1st reading (Hansard) & 1st reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 1st reading
Mon 13th Jul 2020
Stamp Duty Land Tax (Temporary Relief) Bill
Lords Chamber

1st reading (Hansard) & 1st reading (Hansard) & 1st reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 1st reading

House of Commons

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Monday 13 July 2020
The House met at half-past Two o’clock

Prayers

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Prayers mark the daily opening of Parliament. The occassion is used by MPs to reserve seats in the Commons Chamber with 'prayer cards'. Prayers are not televised on the official feed.

This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]
Virtual participation in proceedings commenced (Order, 4 June).
[NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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The Secretary of State was asked—
Neil Coyle Portrait Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Lab)
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What steps her Department is taking to ensure that community services working with victims of domestic violence have adequate resources to deal with an increase in demand as a result of the covid-19 outbreak.

David Simmonds Portrait David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) (Con)
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What steps her Department is taking to help protect victims of domestic abuse.

Priti Patel Portrait The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Priti Patel)
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Domestic abuse devastates lives. During this time of covid that we have all experienced, victims are particularly vulnerable, and as we know, home has not been a safe place for everyone to access the usual support that they could receive. That is why, through our landmark Domestic Abuse Bill, we are committed to protecting victims in a stronger way.

Neil Coyle Portrait Neil Coyle [V]
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As things stand, the Government are discriminating against people who have “no recourse to public funds” restrictions imposed on them and their British-born children, who are denied access to support. Will the Home Secretary end that discrimination by amending the Domestic Abuse Bill to ensure that help is provided to everyone affected by domestic violence and scrap this fundamentally racist policy?

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
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The Domestic Abuse Bill has, I think it is fair to say, been discussed extensively in the House, and I want to thank everybody who has made outstanding contributions to it, including the many organisations that participated in advance of the Bill coming to the House. We are offering support to migrants who suffer domestic abuse through our destitution domestic violence concession scheme. I would like to emphasise—and the hon. Gentleman will know this from his work as a Member of Parliament and with local authorities—that support is provided by local authorities, and individuals can access safe accommodation and get support through various means, which is incredibly important.

David Simmonds Portrait David Simmonds
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Does my right hon. Friend agree that children, who are often the hidden victims of domestic violence—either as victims themselves or through witnessing it among parents and other members of the household—will gain additional protection from our landmark Domestic Abuse Bill?

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
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I thank my hon. Friend for his question. The protection of children is an important issue—children are victims when it comes to domestic abuse, and it is a sad fact that children often witness some of the most abhorrent abuse of their parent or others—and the Bill does exactly that. I am really pleased and proud that we have made sure that children are at the heart of the Bill. It is right that we safeguard and protect them.

Jess Phillips Portrait Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)
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Between 2015 and 2019, despite domestic violence cases rising by 77%, charging fell by 18% and conviction by 20%. In 2018-19, there were almost 60,000 reports of rape to the police, but less than 1,800 were charged and less than 1,000 convicted. The number of cases of rape referred by the police for charging decisions fell by 32% in 2019. How does the Secretary of State account for her Government’s performance in the falling rates of charge and conviction in sexual and domestic violence?

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
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The hon. Lady will know that extensive work has been undertaken across Government, not just recently but in previous years as well. I am absolutely committed, as is my right hon. and learned Friend the Justice Secretary, to ensuring that we take an end-to-end approach to this through the royal commission that we are establishing on the criminal justice system, and that much more work is undertaken within policing to ensure that charges are undertaken and that the right kind of effective training is put in place for police forces and police officers. I have been very clear about that through all my work in policing, as has the Policing Minister. Ultimately, charging and getting those cases to court has to be the priority, which is why the Home Office is taking the right approach and working in the right way with the criminal justice system and the Lord Chancellor.

Lee Anderson Portrait Lee Anderson (Ashfield) (Con)
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What progress her Department has made on introducing a new points-based immigration system.

Marco Longhi Portrait Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con)
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What progress her Department has made on introducing a new points-based immigration system.

Kevin Foster Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Kevin Foster)
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We are ending free movement and will introduce a new, firmer, fairer, skills-led global immigration system, with further details of it published today. Last month our Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill passed through the House unamended, despite the best efforts of the Labour party and those on the separatist Benches.

Lee Anderson Portrait Lee Anderson
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On behalf of the people of Ashfield, I fully support the Government in introducing a points-based immigration system. For far too long, freedom of movement has encouraged the exploitation of migrant labour, which has driven down wages, increased pressure on public services, and had a significant impact on housing in places like Ashfield. Could my hon. Friend please assure me that, moving forward, this Government will implement a firm but fair points-based system attracting high-skilled workers while also prioritising British jobs for British people?

Kevin Foster Portrait Kevin Foster
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I agree with my hon. Friend. The points-based system will support our wider economic strategy by encouraging investment in a domestic UK workforce while ensuring that businesses can still attract the brightest and the best from around the world to Ashfield. We want employers to focus on training and investing in our domestic workforce, driving productivity and improving opportunities for resident workers, with immigration policy being part of, not an alternative to, our strategy for the UK labour market.

Marco Longhi Portrait Marco Longhi
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The introduction of the points-based immigration system is a pledge that we gave to the British people and one that we are now delivering on. Does my hon. Friend agree that now is also the time for employers to create the working conditions for our home-grown population to be attracted to the work that those employers should be offering?

Kevin Foster Portrait Kevin Foster
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I absolutely agree. Under our new points-based immigration system, the UK, especially the Black Country, will continue to be open to the best talent from around the world. But my hon. Friend is right: employers should always be looking to recruit from the domestic workforce first and ensure that they offer terms and conditions, and career development opportunities, that make this possible, especially as we look to support those who have suffered the economic effects of covid-19 back into to work.

Rachel Hopkins Portrait Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab)
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What steps she is taking to allocate adequate funding to police forces.

Gerald Jones Portrait Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab)
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What steps she is taking to allocate adequate funding to police forces.

Rosie Cooper Portrait Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)
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What steps she is taking to allocate adequate funding to police forces.

Margaret Greenwood Portrait Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab)
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What steps she is taking to allocate adequate funding to police forces.

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown Portrait Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
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What steps her Department is taking to increase police funding.

Peter Aldous Portrait Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)
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What steps her Department is taking to increase police funding.

Ruth Edwards Portrait Ruth Edwards (Rushcliffe) (Con)
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What steps her Department is taking to increase police funding.

Kit Malthouse Portrait The Minister for Crime and Policing (Kit Malthouse)
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The Government are now spending over £15 billion on policing—an increase of £1 billion on last year, with £700 million being allocated to police and crime commissioners to recruit 6,000 additional officers by the end of March 2021. While there is no direct connection between police numbers and crime, this will give them the capacity to be much more agile in the face of changing crime.

Rachel Hopkins Portrait Rachel Hopkins
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Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary recently stated in its annual assessment of policing that policing and some other public services are closely linked, and that the level of investment in one public service will have an effect, good or bad, on another, referring to health, particularly mental health, drug and alcohol services, housing and social services as examples. What assessment has the Minister made of the huge detrimental impact that covid-19 has had on local authorities responsible for these services, and the fact that many local councils, including Luton Borough Council in my constituency, are being forced into making significant in-year budget cuts, thus having an impact on local policing?

Kit Malthouse Portrait Kit Malthouse
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The hon. Lady is quite right to draw the connections between policing and other services in the public sector. I cannot speak for the resilience or otherwise of the finances of her particular local authority. I can say, however, that the Prime Minister has tasked me and the Home Secretary with the job of driving cross-Government working to deal with some of the causal factors in crime, beyond enforcement, and we will be talking to local authorities across this country about the part that they can play.

Gerald Jones Portrait Gerald Jones
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Money for additional police officers is welcomed across the board, even though it does not take police numbers back to pre-2010 levels. Surely the Minister would acknowledge, though, that baseline budgets in police forces are being cut again this year, and capital funding is almost non-existent, so unless the Secretary of State is able to win more money for policing generally, forces will be unable to keep the officers they have got.

Kit Malthouse Portrait Kit Malthouse
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The hon. Gentleman is obviously a cup-half-empty person rather than a cup-nearly-three-quarters-full person. The biggest settlement for policing in a decade should be welcomed by everybody across this House, as it has been across the whole of the policing family. But that is not to say that policing is not without challenges and that it cannot be more efficient. While we do want to see more police officers and a better response to crime, there is always the challenge in public services to do things better for less.

Rosie Cooper Portrait Rosie Cooper [V]
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Lancashire has been allocated funding of £4.3 million to deliver an additional 153 police officers by the end of this financial year, but that award reflects a part-year cost, as 153 officers cannot be employed for the whole year because the cost is £9.8 million. So will the Minister commit to providing the full funding for 2021-22, and for future years, to sustain these additional officers?

Kit Malthouse Portrait Kit Malthouse
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The hon. Lady is perhaps confusing her figures, shall we say? Lancashire police received a £22.6 million increase in funding this year, which will allow it to recruit another 153 police officers over the next 12 months—less than 12 months now—up to March next year. It is making good progress, and has recruited 66 already.

Margaret Greenwood Portrait Margaret Greenwood [V]
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Recently, coastal communities such as West Kirby and Caldy in my constituency have seen huge numbers of visitors in search of relaxation and exercise. This has placed additional strain on Merseyside police, which has been working hard to respond to the concerns of local residents about crowds on beaches and in parks. Merseyside police estimates that the cost of the pandemic to date is £4.1 million, due to overtime, the cost of PPE, specialist cleaning and lost income. Will the Minister give an assurance that Merseyside police will be reimbursed for these costs?

Kit Malthouse Portrait Kit Malthouse
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I have had a number of telephone conversations with the chief constable of Merseyside police over the last few weeks and months, as has my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, and I am pleased to say that that force is in good heart, as far as we could tell. Happily, it is running well in advance of its recruitment allocation. I am told that, at the end of March, it had recruited 220 police officers, against an allocation of 200, which does give it extra capacity to deal with the problems that the hon. Member has outlined. Notwithstanding that fact, there are obviously extra costs for policing with covid-19, and we are in conversation with the Treasury about how we might address them.

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown Portrait Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
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Following the excellent announcement that my hon. Friend has given the House this afternoon, which goes a long way towards meeting our Conservative party pledge to recruit an extra 20,000 police officers, would he agree that the real importance of those police officers is that every criminal will know that it is much more likely their crime is going to be investigated and, if it is proved, will result in a prosecution?

Kit Malthouse Portrait Kit Malthouse
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With his usual perspicacity, my hon. Friend puts his finger on the button. We know that the greatest deterrent of crime is the perception of the likelihood of being caught, and the fact that Gloucestershire police has now more than recruited its annual allocation of police officers—he will be pleased to hear—at 48, over 46, already so far this year, means that that is much more likely to be the case in his county.

Peter Aldous Portrait Peter Aldous
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Suffolk constabulary, one of the lowest funded forces from central Government, has made significant efficiency savings and the council tax has increased by over 25% in three years. Can my hon. Friend the Minister confirm that the review of the grant funding formula is still going ahead in the next few months, as this is vital to the future of policing in Suffolk?

Kit Malthouse Portrait Kit Malthouse
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My hon. Friend is a doughty champion for his constituency and his county, and I understand his impatience and his desire to battle for their financial interests, as I did as a Back Bencher for Hampshire. Both the Home Secretary and I have said in public in the past that the funding formula, while it is the only formula we have at the moment, is a bit old-fashioned and probably needs to be looked at, and as part of our vision for policing in the future, no doubt we will get to it in time.

Ruth Edwards Portrait Ruth Edwards
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Will the Minister join me in praising Nottinghamshire police, which has acted so quickly to recruit more officers that it is 12 months ahead of the Government’s recruitment target and was the first force to introduce police officer degree apprenticeships? Does he agree with me that forces such as Nottinghamshire, which are leading the way and which have also increased their diversity, should be first in line for any additional Government funding?

Kit Malthouse Portrait Kit Malthouse
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It is very heartening to see that one of my hon. Friend’s priorities as a new Member in this House is to stand with and defend her local police, and she is quite right to do so. I join her in offering our thanks and praise to them for the work they have done. In fact, I was able to do so in person because I was on the phone with her chief constable just this morning. She is quite right that Nottinghamshire is a forward-looking police force, and we will be supporting it in its endeavours to innovate and challenge crime in the months to come.

Sarah Jones Portrait Sarah Jones (Croydon Central) (Lab)
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On the one hand, the Prime Minister has hailed an end to austerity and promised 20,000 new frontline police officers, and on the other, we had alarming reports at the weekend of forces facing up to 15% cuts. Covid, on top of 10 years of austerity, has created a perfect storm for police funding, with lower council tax coming in, the costs of PPE and lower income from some of their sources, such as airports and large events. I have heard from multiple sources that essential staff jobs will have to be cut, meaning that frontline police officers will end up covering non-frontline roles, which is completely the opposite of what the Prime Minister intends. One senior police officer said to me this morning, “This looks like austerity by the back door.” Can the Minister commit today to plugging the funding gap from council precepts to guarantee there will not be a need to cut police staff?

Kit Malthouse Portrait Kit Malthouse
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First, on a technical front, perhaps the hon. Lady misunderstands how the precept works. The primary liability, if you like, is covered by the precepting authority, which has by law to pass on the precept in full, notwithstanding any issues it might have with collection. And perhaps, alongside her many skills, she has acquired telepathy and foresight, because she seems to be pre-empting a spending review that has not even started.

Mark Logan Portrait Mark Logan (Bolton North East) (Con)
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What steps her Department is taking to increase the number of police officers.

Ben Everitt Portrait Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) (Con)
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What steps her Department is taking to increase the number of police officers.

Christian Wakeford Portrait Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Con)
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What steps her Department is taking to increase the number of police officers.

Priti Patel Portrait The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Priti Patel)
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As we have already discussed, we are in the process of recruiting an extra 20,000 police officers to put violent criminals behind bars, and already we have recruited more than 3,000. We will continue to back the police and deliver on higher police numbers.

Mark Logan Portrait Mark Logan [V]
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Speeding complaints are well and truly up in Bolton North East. All this fast is making my constituents furious. On the day I took part in a community speed watch on Ainsworth Lane, 74 mph was recorded in a 20 mph zone. The problem is particularly severe on Blackburn, Halliwell and Turton Roads. Many of these 20 mph areas are located near schools, yet the speed limit is not enforced. Does the Home Secretary agree that regulations should be introduced to ensure speed limits are adhered to and close a very dangerous loophole to keep my residents safe and put an end to the “Fast & Furious” sequels?

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
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I agree with my hon. Friend about the devastating impact that speeding can have on lives and communities, and he is right to highlight the irresponsible speeds being driven, particularly in residential areas and near schools. We do not plan to legislate, but he will know that police enforcement around speeding is a matter for the police authority itself. I would be happy to work with him if he has particular issues or concerns he would like me to pick up.

Ben Everitt Portrait Ben Everitt
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I bounced in here this afternoon ready to sing the praises of Thames Valley police force for its positive recruitment campaign, which is ahead of schedule to meet its officer target, but it seems that this is not new news, because every other Conservative Member is similarly pleased with their local force for meeting its police targets and getting those officer numbers up. Will the Home Secretary join me in praising Thames Valley police in Milton Keynes especially for keeping our rural and city centre communities safe?

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
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I commend my hon. Friend for his enthusiasm, his gusto and his support for Thames Valley police. I will share something with the House. I have a soft spot for Thames Valley police. It was one of the first police forces I visited when I became Home Secretary. I visited because of a devastating event that took place—the tragic death of a police officer—and I commend the chief constable, John Campbell, and the officers. They really are an impressive police force. They police a very significant geography and quite frankly are the best of us all, and he is absolutely right to commend them for the work they do.

Christian Wakeford Portrait Christian Wakeford
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Getting more officers on to our streets is one of the people’s priorities, which I know is why my right hon. Friend is committed to recruiting 20,000 police officers over the next three years, but can she confirm how many have been recruited in Greater Manchester, and can she also reassure my constituents that they are fully equipped to tackle crime and keep our streets safe?

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
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I thank my hon. Friend for his dedication and support both to policing locally and to his constituents in terms of wanting to keep them safe. It is absolutely right. On recruitment across Greater Manchester, I commend his chief constable, and I can confirm that, as of the end of March, Greater Manchester police had recruited an additional 94 officers towards the year’s allocation, and I can confirm, too, that that number is going up and up. Since our campaign started we have had over 70,00 applicants to become police officers, which is something we should be proud of, because policing is an incredible profession.

Alun Cairns Portrait Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
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What steps her Department is taking to maintain public order during the covid-19 outbreak.

Selaine Saxby Portrait Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con)
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What steps her Department is taking to maintain public order during the covid-19 outbreak.

Priti Patel Portrait The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Priti Patel)
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The Home Office has been working with the National Police Chiefs’ Council every single day throughout the covid crisis, not only to back the police when it comes to law enforcement but, equally importantly, to ensure that they are resourced throughout covid to provide the support required for frontline police officers.

Alun Cairns Portrait Alun Cairns
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During this covid period, many coastal communities have found themselves under threat from mass gatherings—in my constituency, Ogmore-by-Sea is one example and Barry Island is another. Will my right hon. Friend join me in sending the strongest message that such behaviour will not be tolerated? Will she support the police and pay tribute to them for the strong action they are taking to ensure that coastal communities can be enjoyed by families and by tourists who want to visit and enjoy our fantastic resources?

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
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My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. I have visited his constituency in the past and know how beautiful it is. I commend the officers and the police chief for all the work that they have been doing. My right hon. Friend is right to want that area to protected for local residents so that it can be enjoyed responsibly. There is of course no scope at all for antisocial behaviour. We have been continuing to support the police to make sure that they have been equipped throughout this covid crisis to police effectively and encourage the right and responsible kinds of behaviours.

Selaine Saxby Portrait Selaine Saxby
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Will my right hon. Friend join me in welcoming the investment made just last week by the Devon and Cornwall police and crime commissioner, Alison Hernandez, to provide an additional half a million pounds in emergency funding to 20 tourism hotspots in our two counties—including two in my North Devon constituency—to help to prevent alcohol-related antisocial behaviour following the lifting of lockdown? Will she commit to look at how such additional covid-related costs can be supported by the Government?

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
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I commend everybody locally for the fantastic work that they have been doing across policing and, of course, I commend my hon. Friend and her police and crime commissioner as well. She is right to raise the additional costs of covid—in fact, my hon. Friend the Policing Minister has already touched on the fact that we are in discussions with the Treasury. It is inevitable that extra costs have arisen, whether for PPE or the additional hours that police officers have been given. That work is ongoing, but at this point I would like to commend everybody for the great work that they have been doing throughout this crisis.

Conor McGinn Portrait Conor McGinn (St Helens North) (Lab)
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I fully agree with the Home Secretary about supporting the work that the police do to maintain public order, but I cannot help but feel that although the Home Secretary talks a good game, we have not seen much evidence of action. We have seen a marked decline in the number of public-order trained officers and police support units on this Government’s watch, and the recruitment that she talks about simply will not replace that decline and will take a lot of time. What is the Home Secretary doing now—today—to support chief constables to deal with these pressures and to ensure that our frontline officers have the proper resources and the training they need?

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
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It is absolutely right that, through the recruitment and investment that this Government are putting into policing—the largest ever policing funding settlement, certainly for the past decade, of more than a billion pounds—

Conor McGinn Portrait Conor McGinn
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You sacked them all—that is why you are having to recruit new ones.

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
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No, I have not sacked them all, to be quite frank—

Conor McGinn Portrait Conor McGinn
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Your Government have.

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
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Our investment in policing is the largest investment in over a decade, and that is something that every single police chief around the country is supporting. The hon. Gentleman should take stock of the fact that when he speaks to police chiefs—as I do every single day and as my hon. Friend the Policing Minister does every single day—he will hear that they welcome the investment in not only new officers but training. The money that has been put in to invest in new officers also covers a wide range of training. That is training that has gone into the national College of Policing. That is training and investment in the professional development—[Interruption.] It is taking place now. That is training and investment in the professional development of our police officers. That is something that we should all be proud of.

Rushanara Ali Portrait Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)
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What progress she has made on implementing the immigration health surcharge exemption for NHS and social care workers.

Sam Tarry Portrait Sam Tarry (Ilford South) (Lab)
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What progress she has made on implementing the immigration health surcharge exemption for NHS and social care workers.

Zarah Sultana Portrait Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab)
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What progress she has made on implementing the immigration health surcharge exemption for NHS and social care workers.

Kevin Foster Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Kevin Foster)
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Home Office and Department of Health and Social Care officials are working to implement the surcharge exemption. The Home Office is currently identifying all those on a tier 2 visa who will benefit from a refund, and those payments have already started. Those eligible to apply for the new health and care visa will be exempt from the immigration health surcharge.

Rushanara Ali Portrait Rushanara Ali
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I thank the Minister for his answer, but the fact that migrant workers in the NHS and care sector have had to pay the surcharge in the first phase is an insult to their sacrifices, and the fact that the Government are taking so long to implement the Prime Minister’s promise is an added insult. May I ask the Minister how many people have now got the exemption and how many have yet to receive it?

Kevin Foster Portrait Kevin Foster
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The hon. Member asks how long, but I said in my answer that refund payments had already started, and we will imminently implement the new health and care visa, which will see those on it exempt. So work is continuing, and to be clear, the health surcharge is about creating resources for the NHS and has supported the NHS. We have announced this policy, and we are driving it forward.

Sam Tarry Portrait Sam Tarry [V]
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Ilford South is a diverse constituency, with 60% of my local population coming from either heritage communities or directly from immigrant communities. An Oxford University study last year found that the net fiscal giving from immigration to our country’s economy between 2001 and 2011 was £25 billion. People in Ilford South are wondering whether the Minister agrees that it was wrong for the Government to act so slowly to move this policy forward and whether they should offer an apology to the people in Ilford South working in our NHS, who are fearful and risking their lives, and not getting the support they deserve from the Government?

Kevin Foster Portrait Kevin Foster
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I think the people of Ilford South working in the NHS will have been pleased to see the measures that we have taken, not least the fact that we will look to prioritise those coming to work for the NHS under our new visa system.

Zarah Sultana Portrait Zarah Sultana
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Key workers kept our country running through the crisis, from doctors and nurses to supermarket assistants and delivery drivers. That is why we clap for them. They all pay their taxes, and they all contribute to the NHS. That is why the NHS surcharge is a discriminatory double tax on migrants. The Government acknowledge that it is wrong to clap for nurses one day and charge them extra the next, so will the Minister extend that principle to all workers and scrap the immigration health surcharge for all?

Kevin Foster Portrait Kevin Foster
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I will contrast those comments with the comments on the immigration health surcharge from the Labour party during the Immigration Bill Committee. We are clear that our NHS offers fantastic free-at-point-of-need care and services, and it is not unreasonable to ask those who come to this country to make a contribution towards it until they achieve indefinite leave to remain or settlement, which means that they are making a long-term commitment to this country and are therefore exempt from the charge.

Holly Lynch Portrait Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab)
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Further to the excellent questions already asked, Dr Sadara is just one of the hundreds of clinicians who have already had to pay the immigration health surcharge since the Prime Minister said that it would end, not just for himself and his wife, but twice in six months for his newborn baby daughter. We do not just want these medics to stay in the NHS; we need them to stay in the NHS. The new rules published this morning confirm that the charge will end, but they do not come into effect until January, so can the Minister update the House? When will the surcharge end for health and social care workers, and why do the details published this morning suggest that some will still have to pay it and then be reimbursed?

Kevin Foster Portrait Kevin Foster
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The details published this morning relate to the new system beyond 1 January. However, to be clear, we will refund those who have paid the charge since 31 March, not just since the time when the Prime Minister made the announcement. We expect to bring in the new health and care visa significantly before 1 January; we are planning to have it in place before 1 October, and people applying for it will not have to pay the surcharge.

John Howell Portrait John Howell (Henley) (Con)
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What steps her Department is taking to prevent hate crimes against places of worship.

Victoria Atkins Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Victoria Atkins) [V]
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We are committed to protecting places of worship from hate crimes through the places of worship protected security scheme. The funding for next year, at £3.2 million, is an uplift of nearly double the amount awarded last year. A public consultation on providing greater protection from hate crime for places of worship closed on 28 June. We are reviewing the responses and will respond in due course.

John Howell Portrait John Howell
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There is a balance to be struck between worshipping openly and being provided with adequate security. Will the Minister say what success the Government’s places of worship protective security funding scheme has had in achieving that balance?

Victoria Atkins Portrait Victoria Atkins
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Very much so. I can assure my hon. Friend that the places of worship protective security funding scheme has been designed so that each place of worship can apply for practical security measures that suit their individual needs, ranging from CCTV to alarm systems. This allows each place of worship to remain open and accessible for worshippers, while providing greater security. We want to ensure that this scheme listens to worshippers and their communities when seeking to achieve the balance to which he rightly refers.

Sarah Champion Portrait Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab)
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What progress she has made on preventing the sexual exploitation of children by organised gangs.

Priti Patel Portrait The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Priti Patel)
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I thank

the hon. Lady for her a question and pay tribute to her for the work that she has done specifically on the whole issue of child sexual exploitation.

Sarah Champion Portrait Sarah Champion
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I am grateful that the Home Secretary takes this topic seriously. We in Rotherham are very fortunate because we have National Crime Agency to deal with past cases, but will she also look at cases across the country, the resources that police forces have there and the local authorities that have to step in and put the child protection and victim support in place, as there is not enough nationally?

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
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The hon. Lady is right. It is fair to say that she and I go back a long way on this issue. I recall that she first came to see me on this point when I was in the Treasury many years ago. She knows that I have recently announced that the Home Office will be publishing a paper to help us better understand the characteristics associated with groups. I would welcome it if she were to work with me and to join our external reference group that I have established on this important area. She specifically raises issues about third-party organisations, and she mentioned some in her own constituency. I have met many survivors and sufferers with her on this issue. They have had a terrible time. They have also been failed by many aspects of the state and society. We can never allow that to happen again, which is why I am committed, not just through resourcing, but through the work that I have commissioned in the Department, which I know she will join me in and support us on, to make sure that no other aspect of the state, organisation, third party, or Government institution turns a blind eye and ignores the needs of individuals in the way that happened in her constituency.

Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi Portrait Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)
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What steps her Department is taking to tackle online harms on social media platforms.

Victoria Atkins Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Victoria Atkins)
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We are firmly committed to making the UK the safest place in the world to be online. We will be publishing a full Government response to the online harms White Paper consultation in the autumn and our ambition is to bring forward legislation in this Session. In the meantime, the Home Office continues to engage with social media platforms on the safety of their users. We are clear that these companies need to take action now to tackle illegal harms.

Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi Portrait Mr Dhesi
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It has been more than a year since the Government published their online harms White Paper and yet there is still no proper protection in place. Instead, all we have had are delays, ministerial briefings about potentially watering down the sanctions within the White Paper, and continued intensive lobbying by tech giants, which are still failing to remove harmful content and disinformation. That really is poor, so can the Minister update the House about what conversations she has had with social media companies about taking down harmful content and when exactly will the online harms Bill finally be published?

Victoria Atkins Portrait Victoria Atkins
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The online harms White Paper was world leading in its ambitions to sort out the online world. We are very clear that what is illegal offline is also illegal online and that has been the driving force behind our work on this White Paper and on the consultation. As I have said, we will be responding to the consultation in the autumn. We are very much working at pace on this, but we should not shirk the fact that we are leading the world potentially with this work, including our work on tackling online child sexual exploitation, and we all want this abuse to stop.

Patrick Grady Portrait Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)
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What assessment she has made of the adequacy of support and accommodation for asylum seekers during the covid-19 outbreak.

Marion Fellows Portrait Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
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What assessment she has made of the adequacy of support and accommodation for asylum seekers during the covid-19 outbreak.

Chris Philp Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Chris Philp)
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We remain committed to providing support and accommodation to those who need it, but, in addition to that free accommodation, we also pay for utility bills and council tax. Free NHS care is available to those who need it, and there is free education for those with children. In addition, for three months, starting on 27 March, we paused the process of asylum cessation, and a 5% increase in the cash allowance was made just a few weeks ago.

Patrick Grady Portrait Patrick Grady
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Is the Minister suggesting that he would not give these things to people who need them, no matter what their background or where they come from? He was good enough to meet Glasgow’s MPs, but the reality is that the forcing of more than 300 vulnerable asylum seekers into hotels by the contractor Mears has significantly damaged trust in the system. To rebuild that trust, there has to be an independent review and lessons learned, so what steps is he taking to ensure that that review happens?

Chris Philp Portrait Chris Philp
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The hon. Gentleman is right to say that 341 people were moved at the end of March from temporary serviced apartments into hotel accommodation, because those apartments were considered unsuitable, bearing in mind coronavirus. He is also right to say that I have been meeting Glasgow MPs, and I will, of course, continue to do so. I have twice met Aileen Campbell, the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Local Government, and the leader of Glasgow City Council, and I have committed to continue such meetings—he and I have spoken about that. He and his colleagues have raised specific concerns about the hotel accommodation, and I have asked Home Office officials to look into those urgently and report back to me.

Marion Fellows Portrait Marion Fellows [V]
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The requirements in the asylum accommodation contracts to safeguard vulnerable people are vital, yet the recent National Audit Office report discloses that the contract fails to provide for proper monitoring of them or sanctions for breaches. Will the Minister fix that? Will he explain why no safeguarding framework is in place yet, despite this contract being worth billions of pounds of public money?

Chris Philp Portrait Chris Philp
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We are, of course, studying the report very carefully. As the House would expect, we do monitor carefully the way the contractors operate. Where concerns are raised, as they have been in relation to Glasgow by Glasgow MPs and others, we look into them and investigate them seriously. That is what we are doing in the case of Glasgow.

Joanna Cherry Portrait Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The NAO report mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows) is about not just value for money but people. Asylum seekers are, by their very nature, vulnerable people, with many of them being survivors of trafficking or ill treatment, including torture. Yet under the existing Home Office contracts with private companies, it is possible for those companies to shove hundreds of these asylum seekers into hotels without doing proper individual assessments of their vulnerabilities. The NAO report records that 10 months into these contracts there is no safeguarding framework. Can the Minister give us a date on which he will introduce a safeguarding framework for these private company contracts?

Chris Philp Portrait Chris Philp
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The hon. and learned Lady asked about vulnerability assessments. In the Glasgow case we are discussing, vulnerability assessments were undertaken before people were moved, and I understand that 109 people who might have been moved from the temporary serviced accommodation into the hotels were not moved as a consequence of exactly that vulnerability assessment. She made a more general point about taking care of people who are vulnerable. This country has an extremely proud record in this area: last year, we made 20,000 grants of asylum or protection, which is one of the highest levels in Europe; we welcomed more than 3,500 unaccompanied asylum-seeking children, which is the highest level for any European country; and we are the only G7 country to spend 0.7% of gross national income.

Joanna Cherry Portrait Joanna Cherry
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I thank the Minister for his answer, but I am sure he will recall that there was a degree of uncertainty about the nature of the assessments carried out in Glasgow, and I am sure he will agree that having a safeguarding framework would ensure that that sort of oversight would not happen again. He mentioned meeting the leader of the Glasgow City Council. He will be aware that many local authorities are concerned that, although the Home Office is happy to pay billions to private companies under these asylum contracts, no assessment has been made of the additional demands this places on local authority resources. Local authorities are concerned that the proper financial support they need is as far away as ever. How does he expect more local authorities to become asylum dispersal areas if the Government will not give existing local authorities the support they require?

Chris Philp Portrait Chris Philp
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National Government provide a huge amount of support and finance to help asylum-seeking populations. We pay for all the accommodation. We pay for the council tax, which of course goes to local authorities, and for utility bills. Those who need healthcare are treated by the NHS, and of course funding for that flows from central Government. Those requiring education are educated, and there is a per capita funding formula to cover that. National Government are spending a huge amount of money supporting those populations. As the hon. and learned Lady said, the figures run over multiple years into billions of pounds. I am always happy to talk to local authorities about the work that they do and how we can work better together. I am already doing that with Glasgow City Council, and via the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Local Government, Aileen Campbell, I hope to expand those conversations to cover other towns and cities in Scotland.

Rob Butler Portrait Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con)
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If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.

Priti Patel Portrait The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Priti Patel)
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Four years ago, the British public voted to leave the EU—they voted to take back control of our borders and end free movement. Last year, they voted to get Brexit done and introduce a points-based immigration system. We are doing exactly that: despite the best efforts of the Labour party, we are ending free movement and introducing a points-based system. Today, we have published more details of that system, which will enable us to attract the brightest and best—a firmer and fairer system that will take back control of our borders, crack down on foreign criminals and unleash our country’s true potential. We are building a brighter future for Britain and signalling to the world that we are open for business.

Rob Butler Portrait Rob Butler
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Last week was the 15th anniversary of the 7/7 terrorist attacks. It was a moment once more to commemorate those who lost their lives and repeat our appreciation for those who rushed to help those caught in those dreadful blasts—particularly those from the emergency services. Will my right hon. Friend update the House on what plans her Government have to try to prevent future attacks and monitor people who have raised the suspicions of the police and security services?

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
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My hon. Friend is absolutely right to pay tribute to those people and commemorate the anniversary of those attacks. In short, we are constantly investing in our security and intelligence services. In particular, we are investing in counter-terrorism policing, which has had an increase this year of £90 million—one of the largest uplifts ever, taking CT policing funding to more than £900 million. Of course, we have to do more to strengthen it and ensure our system is fit, agile and responsive to all sorts of threats.

Nick Thomas-Symonds Portrait Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I join the Home Secretary in paying tribute to those who died in the 7/7 attacks, and I commend the work of the emergency services that day.

When I read the details of the proposed new immigration system, I was disappointed, if unfortunately not shocked, to see evidence yet again that the Government do not consider carers to be skilled workers, as they have been excluded from the qualifying list for the health and care visa. After the Prime Minister accused care workers of not following the guidance on covid-19, and now this, will the Home Secretary please answer a simple question: what do the Government have against care workers?

Kevin Foster Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Kevin Foster)
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We support our care workers. Senior care workers will qualify under the new points-based system. People will look at what has happened over the past few months and surely they will not think that our vision for the social care sector should be to carry on looking abroad to recruit at or near the minimum wage. We need to be prioritising jobs in this country.

Nick Thomas-Symonds Portrait Nick Thomas-Symonds
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We all want more people training and entering the care sector at a decent wage, but there are more than 100,000 vacancies in England alone today. Some of us in the House do not need reminding of how important and skilled care workers’ jobs are, but that does not always seem to be the case for the Government. I would like to extend an invitation to the Home Secretary. I will convene a meeting of a delegation of care workers, alongside their trade union representatives, to help to provide a better understanding of the incredible jobs they do. Would she care to join me? I am sure she would find meeting frontline care workers incredibly useful when sitting there deciding how skilled people’s jobs are.

Kevin Foster Portrait Kevin Foster
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Many people listening in Torfaen and Halifax will be wondering whether the hon. Gentleman has been following the sad news about the economic impact of covid-19 and the number of our own UK-based workers who we will need to get back into employment. It is hard to believe that many will believe that there is a labour shortage. We engage regularly with the care sector and we listen to what it says. Our priority is that in future these jobs will be valued, rewarded and trained for, and that immigration should not be an alternative.

Philip Dunne Portrait Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con) [V]
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The Environmental Audit Committee highlighted in our reports on hand car washes in 2018 and on fast fashion in 2019 clear evidence of modern slavery, in plain sight, in hand car washes on streets across Britain and in garment factories in Leicester. Will my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary commit to doing all she can to work across Government agencies to rid our towns and cities of this scourge?

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I completely agree with my right hon. Friend’s description of this modern-day scourge of exploitation. On hand car washes, local authorities need to do so much more in terms of stepping in and investigating with trading standards. He is right to press me and the Government on integrated working across all aspects of the state, at both national Government and local authority level. On Leicester, he, like all hon. Members, will be interested to know that we have established a cross-Government taskforce, which will be on the ground, asking the difficult questions of all institutions and organisations across Leicester about this scourge in the textile sector.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I call the Chair of the Select Committee on Home Affairs, Yvette Cooper.

Yvette Cooper Portrait Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
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Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Select Committee has repeatedly called on the Government to include care workers alongside NHS medical staff with regard to this year’s free visa extension following covid-19. By refusing to do so, Ministers have cost those frontline workers thousands of pounds. Does the Home Secretary’s decision to exclude social care workers from the health and care visa mean that they will also have to pay the immigration surcharge up front? If so, why is it fair for them to have to find many more thousands of pounds up front as well?

Kevin Foster Portrait Kevin Foster
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

To be clear, the health and care visa will, by definition, include various areas in the care sector. As I touched on in response to the shadow Home Secretary, our vision for the future of the care sector is about providing rewarding opportunities to UK-based workers, not basing it purely on immigration.

Mark Fletcher Portrait Mark Fletcher (Bolsover) (Con)
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My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary will fondly remember her visit to Clowne in my constituency during the election campaign and the popularity on the doorsteps of getting more police on the streets in Derbyshire. Our police are fantastic but they need some new colleagues. Could she please give us an update?

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. On calls for more police officers in his constituency, he is equally as popular for his championing of more cops and for the excellent work he is doing. I can confirm that his county of Derbyshire will receive 85 officers as part of the uplift, but 60 new officers have already been recruited and they will be coming to his community very soon.

Afzal Khan Portrait Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab) [V]
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According to a new report from Coram Children’s Legal Centre, more than 900,000 eligible European economic area children are thought to be living in the UK, fewer than half of whom have been granted status under the settlement scheme. Of the estimated 9,000 EEA children in the UK care system, the state—which has a duty of care to these vulnerable children—has secured status for fewer than 500. What urgent action will the Home Secretary take on the back of these revelations, to ensure that no vulnerable children are allowed to become undocumented?

Kevin Foster Portrait Kevin Foster
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We have already taken a range of actions. We are working with local authorities, which, as the hon. Gentleman has touched on, have the duty to make the application for those eligible under the EUSS. We have also confirmed that we will accept late applications from those who should have had an application made on their behalf by their local council. We are also working with support groups, one of which I will visit virtually tomorrow.

Aaron Bell Portrait Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

No one should be fearful of practising their faith anywhere, but there have been too many attacks, both at home and abroad, on all sorts of places of worship. I thank the Minister for her earlier answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell) about doubling the places of worship protective security fund to £3.2 million, and for the Home Office’s consultation, which recently closed. Does the Home Secretary believe that those measures, put together, will limit the chances of future hate crime attacks in the UK?

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. This is valuable investment. What we have seen in terms of targeted attacks on places of worship is appalling; it is thoroughly unacceptable. It is that combined approach, along with law enforcement, that absolutely matters. We want to see crimes of this nature absolutely decrease, and we want to stamp this out.

Rachel Hopkins Portrait Rachel Hopkins (Luton South) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is over three months since Wendy Williams’s Windrush lessons learned review was published. On 23 June, I asked the Home Secretary when she would implement the review’s sixth recommendation: to accurately teach British colonial history in the Home Office to tackle institutional racism. The Windrush generation has waited too long for justice. The Government must not continue to drag their feet. The Home Secretary said that she would bring forward a timeline and an action plan for implementing the recommendations before recess. Is that still the case?

Ben Everitt Portrait Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Violent crime is the scourge of too many communities. Perhaps the Home Secretary will join me in paying tribute to the Thames Valley police and crime commissioner, who has put together a violence reduction unit, which works with the police and other partners to pilot early interventions into these offenders.

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I pay tribute to the police and crime commissioner for Thames Valley and the emphasis that he has put, along with the police force, on violence reduction units and that multi-agency way of working, so that young people and people across all communities can be supported to ensure that crime prevention, and steering people away from crime and criminality, is the focus.

Martyn Day Portrait Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP) [V]
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When and why did the Government U-turn on their commitment to a remote areas visa pilot? Who did they consult before making that disastrous U-turn?

Kevin Foster Portrait Kevin Foster
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We have been very clear in our response to the Migration Advisory Committee report, and we will make sure that our new system serves the whole of our United Kingdom.

Simon Fell Portrait Simon Fell (Barrow and Furness) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Women’s Community Matters in my constituency is an amazing place. It helps women and families, including those in urgent need, but it is rightly concerned about the availability of refuges locally. There is one in Kendal; if it is full, families have to go out of the area, and often placements fail. We passed a landmark piece of legislation in the Domestic Abuse Bill. Will the Home Secretary look again at the funding and availability of these services in rural areas such as mine?

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I commend him for his work locally and for raising this point. If I may, I will write to him with the specifics of what we can do in his local area to provide assistance and financial help.

Alex Cunningham Portrait Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Cleveland has the third highest violent crime rate in the country and ranks sixth highest nationally for offences involving knives and sharp instruments. The most serious violent offences are also increasing at a higher rate than the national average, despite the excellent work by our new chief constable. The Government have granted £100 million to 18 police force areas and PCCs deemed to have a significant problem with serious violence. Why has Cleveland not been included?

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

If I may, I join the hon. Gentleman in commending the work of his chief constable. Cleveland, as he will know, has had a difficult few years, not just when it comes to policing, and he will know the outcomes of many of the inspectorate reports too. On the areas of violence that he mentions, of course we are constantly looking at this whole area, and if there is more that we can do to tackle serious violent crime we will absolutely do that.

Andy Carter Portrait Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My right hon. Friend will know that the Peace Foundation is globally renowned for its work in supporting victims of terror incidents, most recently those affected by the Reading attacks. Its work is now at risk because of changes to its funding. Will the Home Secretary come to Warrington and meet the team there, so that she can understand more about the great work that they do?

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

First, let me commend my hon. Friend for championing the work of the Peace Foundation. He has been in extensive dialogue with us on this, but he is right to point to the work that it does when it comes to victims of terror. I would be very happy to meet him and to come to Warrington and have further discussions about this.

Jonathan Gullis Portrait Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con)
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Shockingly, in Kidsgrove and Talke, local police officers are unable to access the outdated CCTV due to its being stationed in a local high street store. I was pleased when residents supported my plan to have the Labour-run Kidsgrove Town Council use its extensive funds for a CCTV upgrade. Will my right hon. Friend back my plan, call for an end to the dither and delay and demand that Kidsgrove Town Council backs our brave Staffordshire police officers?

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We must end the dither and delay, as he outlined, and I commend him for championing CCTV to make sure that the local council steps up and does the right thing. I will give him every backing that he needs.

Alex Davies-Jones Portrait Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is clear that child victims of domestic abuse who do not enter a refuge often require extra support, which is regularly being overlooked. Will the Home Secretary confirm what specific resources are available to those children to ensure that their needs are met?

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

If the hon. Lady has specifics that she would like to raise with me, I can come back to her on the details for children. We passed the Domestic Abuse Bill last week in this House and we have been very clear about the protections around children—that is absolutely right. There are many other measures that we have in place, and I would be very happy to write to her about that.

Ruth Jones Portrait Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Our commitment to providing sanctuary to those fleeing war, famine and disease is important to many across the UK, and especially in my constituency. At the end of the transition period, the UK will leave the Dublin system, risking the loss of an important safe route to reunification for families, so will the Home Secretary amend the refugee family reunion rules to allow more families to reunite safely here in Britain?

Kevin Foster Portrait Kevin Foster
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We set out clearly, during the passage of the Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill recently, our plan to look at negotiating a proper agreement with the European Union for family reunification based on the fantastic record that we have, which my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary outlined earlier.

Paul Bristow Portrait Paul Bristow (Peterborough) (Con)
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Residents in Paston, Werrington and other parts of Peterborough have had to endure unauthorised encampments on public land and open spaces for many years. Rubbish, industrial waste and even human waste has been left behind, costing many thousands of pounds to clear up. Does my right hon. Friend agree that that is unacceptable and will she bring forward legislation to deal with it as soon as possible?

Priti Patel Portrait Priti Patel
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I think my hon. Friend knows my views on this subject matter quite well, having campaigned with him. I absolutely agree with him: it is thoroughly unacceptable. He will have to wait until the autumn session of Parliament, but we will be bringing forward legislation covering that very issue.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

In order to allow the safe exit of hon. Members participating in this item of business and the safe arrival of those participating in the next, I briefly suspend the House.

15:32
Sitting suspended.

Sale of Arms: War in Yemen

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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15:36
Emily Thornberry Portrait Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab) (Urgent Question)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

To ask the Secretary of State for International Trade if she will make a statement on her decision to resume the sale of arms to the Saudi-led coalition for use in the war in Yemen.

Greg Hands Portrait The Minister for Trade Policy (Greg Hands)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Secretary of State has retaken the licensing decisions, as required by the Court of Appeal. All existing and new applications for Saudi Arabia for possible use in the conflict in Yemen will be assessed against the revised methodology, which considers whether there is a clear risk that the equipment might be used in the commission of a serious violation of international humanitarian law.

The revised methodology was developed to address the Court of Appeal’s judgment. It considers all allegations that are assessed as likely to have occurred and that have been caused by fixed-wing aircraft, reflecting the factual circumstances that the court proceedings concerned. It remains the case, however, that it can be extremely difficult to reach firm conclusions as to whether specific incidents violate the principles of international humanitarian law. Therefore, where an incident is assessed as a possible breach, it is regarded for the purposes of the relevant analysis as if there were breaches of IHL. I emphasise that that analysis is just one part of the assessment.

In retaking these decisions, the Secretary of State has considered the full range of information available to the Government. Some of that information is necessarily sensitive and confidential. I am therefore not able to go into detail about individual assessments. The crucial point is that we have assessed that there were a small number of incidents that have been treated, for the purposes of this analysis, as violations of international humanitarian law. However, these were isolated incidents and our analysis shows that Saudi Arabia has a genuine intent and the capacity to comply with international humanitarian law and the specific commitments it has made.

It is on that basis that the Secretary of State has assessed that there is not a clear risk that the export of arms and military equipment to Saudi Arabia might be used in the commission of a serious violation of international humanitarian law.

Emily Thornberry Portrait Emily Thornberry
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Thank you, Mr Speaker, for granting this urgent question, although I am sorry the Secretary of State cannot be dragged here to explain her own decisions. There is certainly much explaining to do. In my limited time, I have five questions for the Minister and one specific request.

First, we welcome the Secretary of State’s assessment of possible violations of international law in Yemen, but can the Minister explain why his brother Ministers have been telling the House for the last five years that such an assessment was impossible for Britain to make, and that it could be made only by Saudi Arabia itself? Were those Ministers simply wrong?

Secondly, the Secretary of State has concluded that where international law was broken in Yemen these were “isolated incidents”. Can the Minister tell us how many such incidents were identified, so that we can understand how they define the word “isolated”?

Thirdly, the Government say they have found no patterns of civilian infrastructure being targeted. Can the Minister therefore explain why, for 17 months at the start of the war, Saudi planes systematically destroyed Yemen’s means of food production, bombing farmland, markets, milk plants and fishing boats? If that is not a pattern, what is?

Fourthly, as well as deliberate targeting, the Minister will know that the indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas is in itself a war crime, but the Government say the Saudis could not have meant to break international law because their violations

“occurred at different times, in different circumstances and for different reasons.”—[Official Report, 7 July 2020; Vol. 678, c. 339WS.]

Does the Minister not agree that that sounds like the very definition of the word “indiscriminate”?

Fifthly, the Government have concluded that Saudi Arabia has both the intent and capacity to comply with international law, but if that is the case, will the Minister explain the cause of the occasions on which it has failed to do that?

Finally, it would help all of us to understand the Government’s decision if they would agree to publish the full assessment that underpinned it, including the analysis of each so-called isolated incident. If the Minister believes this decision is not just moral and lawful but correct, then surely he has nothing to fear from publishing that assessment and letting us all decide for ourselves.

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the right hon. Lady for her questions, and start by saying that we absolutely share her concern about the humanitarian tragedy in Yemen, which is why the UK is actively engaged in seeking further diplomatic solutions. Let me try to deal with her questions, as far as I am able, as some of the matters are within the competence of the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office and the Ministry of Defence.

Ministers have of course not been wrong in their assessment; if they had been wrong, they would have come to the Dispatch Box. The consolidated criteria have been used in all the assessments of the licences. The number of incidents is an operational question; the role of the Department for International Trade is in assessing the consolidated criteria.

The right hon. Lady talked about a number of incidents over different times and in different ways. The assessment was that there is no pattern in the behaviour of Saudi Arabia, and that these were isolated incidents over some considerable time and also at different times.

The right hon. Lady mentioned the intention and capacity to comply and publish the full assessment of the various incidents and asked for a full analysis of each incident. It is worth saying—as you, Mr Speaker, will certainly understand—that assessments of the different incidents that took place in Yemen will often be informed by confidential information that comes to the Government not necessarily from Saudi Arabia; it would not be appropriate for us to publish those assessments. What we have published, however, are the consolidated criteria and the quarterly lists of each licence that has been granted.

Andrew Mitchell Portrait Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Minister knows that I am a longstanding critic of the policies towards Yemen of the Saudi coalition, which the British Government continue to support, but it is my purpose today not to call for an arms embargo, but rather to ensure that in granting these contentious licences UK arms export licensing regime members continue to benefit from DFID’s expertise once that Department is dismantled. DFID officials sit on the export licensing Committee, and I would like the Minister’s reassurance to the House that that DFID DNA, which is very important to making these decisions in the licensing Committee, will still be available.

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend for his long time as Secretary of State for International Development and the exceptionally good work that he did over a considerable time, when we were in opposition and in government, and particularly the strong voice that he has had in relation to the conflict.

The part of my right hon. Friend’s question about the Committees on Arms Export Controls is properly a matter for the Committee, under the chairmanship of my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier). However, he has said that the International Development Committee will continue to take part in its public sessions for as long as that Committee continues in existence.

On my right hon. Friend’s other point about DFID officials, the Government are obviously very keen that DFID and international development expertise in the region continues to be recognised and utilised.

Chris Law Portrait Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

This UK Government are increasingly chaotic and incoherent. Last week, the Foreign Secretary announced a new sanctions regime, claiming that the UK will be a stronger force for good, while the International Trade Secretary resumed arms sales to Saudi Arabia, demonstrating that profit comes before peace. The international community, our allies and the UN have been clear that the arms trade to Saudi Arabia should be stopped due to the mounting evidence of what UN experts have described as “potential war crimes” and widespread and systematic strikes on civilian targets. Yemen has also been described as “hanging by a thread”, with more than 1 million covid infections.

With the UN ascribing tens of thousands of civilian deaths to the Saudi military, how can the Secretary of State tell the UK with any certainty that there is not a clear risk of serious violations in exporting arms, describing previous violations as merely “isolated incidents”? Can the Minister tell us how many isolated incidents there are? Who collated this evidence? Will he explain why the UK is going against the international community? Surely these actions remove any legitimacy that the UK Government can be a stronger force for good in the world.

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

First, I strongly refute the allegation that the UK Government are not a strong voice for good in the world. That is absolutely our mission right the way across the Government. The hon. Gentleman asked about the announcement by the Foreign Secretary last week in relation to sanctions on individuals. I think that is a separate matter, but we have been absolutely clear to condemn the attack on Mr Khashoggi the year before last and to make sure we have a robust regime of human rights sanctions coming from the original Magnitsky law, which my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary was one of the originators of, and with which I was involved at the time.

In terms of the number and type of incidents, I am not at liberty to publish that, given the confidential nature of a lot of the information involved. However, what I can say is that the UK has one of the strongest arms control regimes in the world, we use the consolidated EU and national criteria and we are now using the revised methodology to come to these decisions that we are happy with.

Ruth Jones Portrait Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I, too, am disappointed that the Secretary of State is not here this afternoon to answer this urgent question herself. She based her decision on a detailed assessment of all the alleged incidents where international humanitarian law has been violated in Yemen, so let me ask the question again: will the Minister ask his boss to publish that assessment, so that the people of the UK can see the evidence and be able to judge whether the Secretary of State is right simply to dismiss those violations as isolated?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The incidents or the allegations are not being dismissed, but we are clear that we need to follow a sensible set of criteria and that is why we have the consolidated criteria in place to assess export licences going forward. But I return to what I said earlier: it would not be appropriate for the Government to publish their findings in relation to incidents in Yemen in the past.

Sarah Dines Portrait Miss Sarah Dines (Derbyshire Dales) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Can the Minister reassure the House that the Government can still, if necessary, review, suspend or revoke licences?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my hon. Friend for that question. She is absolutely right. Licences can be reviewed or revoked in line with the consolidated criteria. That is the basis on which arms control works in this country and always has done under successive Governments.

Matt Western Portrait Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Minister says that the Government have a very strong arms control system, but back in September last year, he will recall that the Government were guilty of granting 14— or was it 20?—unlawful arms export licences. It does seem that last week’s announcement, a day after the Magnitsky sanctions were imposed, was incredibly cynical. Is that not the case?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

No, it is not the case. I think the hon. Gentleman refers in his question to the Secretary of State apologising to the House, and indeed to the Court, for the inadvertent breaches of the Court judgment last June. However, we are talking today about a forward-looking way of doing this, using the revised methodology based on the consolidated criteria.

Sara Britcliffe Portrait Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will my right hon. Friend please explain to the House why there has been a delay in reaching this decision?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my hon. Friend for that question. It was vital that the Government got this right first time with a comprehensive assessment. The Court judgment last year was a very serious matter, and it was absolutely right that we took the time to have a comprehensive assessment process in accordance with the legal approach identified by the Court of Appeal last June.

Patricia Gibson Portrait Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Like many people listening today, I am astonished that the Minister has said that the global human rights sanctions regime is a separate matter from selling arms to the brutal Saudi regime. Can he tell me how this Government can, in all good conscience, continue to export weapons to Saudi Arabia when we know that there is a risk that they may be used in Yemen, after 17,640 civilian casualties have been documented in that country? Is it simply a case of profit before Yemeni lives?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The process that is with me is to use the consolidated criteria. That is why we have developed a revised methodology in respect of all the allegations which it is assessed are likely to have occurred and to have been caused by fixed-wing aircraft. Each of those allegations has been subject to detailed analysis by reference to the relevant principles of international humanitarian law. An evaluation has been made and it has been applied to all credible incidents of concern of which we are aware. Importantly, our revised methodology will allow us to make these decisions going forward.

Imran Ahmad Khan Portrait Imran Ahmad Khan (Wakefield) (Con) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The enduring alliance with Saudi Arabia is vital to regional security and bolsters the ability of the United Kingdom and our allies to help to police the region. The UK has licensed more than £5.3 billion of arms to Saudi Arabia since 2015, and that has secured thousands of jobs across the United Kingdom, including in Wakefield. Does the Minister agree that if we maintain arms sales to our Saudi allies, the whole UK prospers?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is very important that we have a broad and deep relationship covering matters such as trade, defence, security, energy and regional issues. It is important that the UK maintains that relationship overall. It does not prevent us from being critical, as we have been on occasions, in relation to human rights.

Alistair Carmichael Portrait Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

As is well documented, the Government of Saudi Arabia are indiscriminate in their use of the death penalty, including against minors. In recent years they have detained without trial members of their own royal family, and just recently they were found at the World Trade Organisation to be responsible for sports piracy through the company beoutQ. What makes the Minister think that the Saudi Government will have any regard for the rules of international law? Does he not agree that our new policy in relation to China would be seen in a much better light if we were seen to hold Saudi Arabia to the same standards?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am not going to comment on China, because I think it is not quite within the scope of the urgent question. At all times, the UK campaigns actively in its foreign policy for the abolition of the death penalty. The right hon. Gentleman and I know that; he served in the Government not so long ago, and he will know that that is an important pillar of our foreign policy. These matters do not prevent us from having a good overall relationship with as many countries around the world as we reasonably can, where it is in the national interest to do so. I will look into the WTO complaint and write to him.

Antony Higginbotham Portrait Antony Higginbotham (Burnley) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my right hon. Friend for his comments so far. In any arms export regime, it is important that we not only operate on a principled basis but respond rapidly to global circumstances that often change at short notice. Can he reassure me and the House that our regime is adaptable and responsive, and that it can deal with changing circumstances?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Yes, I can. We work very closely with colleagues in the Ministry of Defence, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for International Development to make sure we are aware of all changes in policy and all uses of military weapons around the world, and to make sure that that feeds through into our ability to change policy and, if necessary, revoke a licence.

Liz Twist Portrait Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Saudi state media reported that the Secretary of State for Defence called Saudi Ministers last week after the announcement of sanctions against the murderers of Jamal Khashoggi and reassured them of the Government’s support on the issue of arms exports. Can the Minister explain now why his colleague felt that that was his job and why he chose to keep that call secret?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Mr Speaker, you will know that it is the policy of successive Governments not to comment on calls or conversations between Government Ministers and their opposite numbers, even including if the call itself took place, so I am not going to comment on those matters. What I will say is that there is a very, very important multi-faceted relationship with Saudi Arabia, which I have already talked about, which must be considered in the round.

Alexander Stafford Portrait Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Have my right hon. Friends the International Trade Secretary and the Foreign Secretary raised the issue of international humanitarian law compliance with Saudi Arabia and the others in the coalition?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Yes, we have. We do that on a regular basis to make sure, as part of our wider work in the region, that UK foreign policy goals are achieved.

Rachael Maskell Portrait Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

There is a difference between what is permissible and what is right. Since the bombing of Yemen commenced in March 2015, £5.3 billion-worth of export licences have been issued to Saudi Arabia, of which £2.5 billion have related to bombs, missiles and other types of ordnance. So what does the Secretary of State have to hide in not publishing the evidence on which to resume licensing arms and the trade in these deadly weapons?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I think I have already laid out to the House why these reports are not published: a lot are based on confidential information, which it would not be in the national interest for us to disclose. What we can say is that the incidents assessed to have been possible violations of international humanitarian law occurred at different times, in different circumstances and for different reasons. The conclusion was that they were isolated incidents. On that basis, we believe there is not a clear risk that the export of arms and military equipment to Saudi Arabia might be used in the commission of a serious violation of international humanitarian law.

James Sunderland Portrait James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Could the Minister please outline the importance with which the UK regards Saudi Arabia as a diplomatic and trading partner in the middle east?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my hon. Friend for that question. Saudi Arabia is an important diplomatic and trading partner for this country. That has been the case for many decades under successive Governments.

Florence Eshalomi Portrait Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

A number of my constituents in Vauxhall have written to me about their concerns about the devastating conflict in Yemen. We must acknowledge and speak out about the immense human cost of this war. It is one of the largest humanitarian crises in the world and we know that thousands of Yemeni civilians have been killed, including women and children. Now 20 million people face food insecurity and 10 million are at risk of famine. That suffering is unimaginable. We know that the coalition has conducted numerous and indiscriminate air strikes, in violation of the laws of wars, using munitions sold by the US, the United Kingdom and others. How can the Minister be confident that the arms sold by the UK will not be used in similar attacks?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That is exactly why we have the arms control and export licence regime in place, properly using the consolidated criteria to make those assessments. In terms of what anybody else may do in the region, the hon. Lady mentioned the United States. That is very much a matter for the United States Government.

Peter Bone Portrait Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The excellent Minister seems quite sure that it is right to export these arms at the moment and I have no problem with that, but as my hon. Friends the Members for Derbyshire Dales (Miss Dines) and for Burnley (Antony Higginbotham) said. this needs to be kept under review. The Minister said that that will happen. Can he give the House a bit more detail: on a day-to-day or month-to-month basis, how does that review take place?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That is a good question. Obviously, we operate in an overall policy framework called the consolidated criteria. Each individual licence application is in itself a separate decision, based on those consolidated criteria. We follow those criteria. Those decisions can be made on a daily basis—for each individual export licence that comes in—by Ministers.

Alyn Smith Portrait Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Minister really is missing an opportunity to reassure the House. I am entirely unpersuaded that there is not a risk that these armaments will be used against civilians. Oxfam, a deeply credible organisation, has had three installations attacked, in Sa’ada, Al-Hamazat and Abs, over the past few years. Have they been investigated by the joint incidents assessments team? If not, why not, and how on earth can the Minister possibly pretend that this is a credible statement?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

As I have said before, the incidents that have been assessed as possible violations of international humanitarian law have been looked at, but we are confident that they occurred at different times, in different circumstances and for different reasons. Therefore, there is not a pattern. We are content with this regime going forward and about sticking to our consolidated criteria. That is absolutely the proper way to be doing this.

Marco Longhi Portrait Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the Minister provide an assurance to the House that the Department will continue to investigate every possible violation of international humanitarian law in the Yemen conflict by coalition forces?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend raises a good question. It is worth noting, again, that the investigation process is principally a matter for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Ministry of Defence, which track allegations of incidents. However, the Government take their export responsibilities seriously and assess all export licences in accordance with the strict licensing criteria. We will not issue any export licences where to do so would be inconsistent with the consolidated criteria.

Stella Creasy Portrait Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Given that the United Nations Refugee Agency reports that, over the past five years, more than 3.5 million people in Yemen have been displaced as a direct result of the civil war there, the Minister will understand the concern about the resumption of arms sales. He tells us that he cannot share with us the specific details on which the Government have made the assessment to resume those sales, but he could set out for us what he means by the “genuine intent” that he believes is behind the Saudi Arabian decision on human rights, and what might change that. Will he do so?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I have already outlined how, after looking at incidents and the assessment of them, we are confident that there is not a pattern in those previous incidents. I absolutely share the hon. Lady’s concern about the appalling humanitarian situation in Yemen. However, based on those incidents, we do not believe that there has been a pattern there. Therefore, as long as we stick to our consolidated criteria and continue our assessment of incidents, that is absolutely the right decision for the UK Government to make.

Andrew Griffith Portrait Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am proud that so many young people in my constituency have raised the situation in Yemen with me. Saudi Arabia itself is a young country, with half its population under the age of 25. Will the Minister assure me that he will continue to raise human rights with his counterparts?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Yes, we do. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and his team do so on a regular basis with Saudi Arabia and with other partners all the way around the world. We are immensely proud of the record that we have as a Government and as a country of promoting human rights around the world. That was absolutely the basis of the statement made by the Foreign Secretary in this place just last week.

Zarah Sultana Portrait Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Secretary of State has announced that new arms sale to Saudi will commence, claiming that international humanitarian law had only been violated in “isolated incidents”. The Minister has said that he is not at liberty to disclose the number of incidents but, this morning, in response to my written question, the Government revealed that the Ministry of Defence’s own database records 516 potential violations of international humanitarian law since the war in Yemen began in 2015. In the light of that, will the Minister stand by the Secretary of State’s claim that violations of international law are only “isolated incidents”, or will the Government finally do the right thing and stop these arms sales?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

As I pointed out earlier, all potential incidents must, for these purposes, be treated as actual violations of international humanitarian law. I am not at liberty to comment on whatever numbers the hon. Lady may have in front of her, but it is clear that all potential incidents must be treated as actual incidents for the purposes of putting forward the consolidated criteria.

Scott Benton Portrait Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The announcement last week was welcomed by hundreds of my constituents who work at the BAE plant in the Fylde, which assembles the Hawk and Typhoon aircraft, and I would like to put on record my support for the decision to resume the granting of export licences. Saudi Arabia is one of our key strategic partners, and rightly so. Can my right hon. Friend reassure the House that the Government will continue to work closely with the Saudi Government on all security and military issues and that his Department will continue to explore investment and trade opportunities with the kingdom that will benefit jobs and economic growth in the UK?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend raises a good point in relation to jobs in the north-west at BAE Systems. I was getting a little bit worried about the Opposition’s approach to this. I am going to read out a quote:

“we have a brilliant arms industry in the United Kingdom, and I have no problem with arms sales to other countries, as long as they are properly controlled”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 10 July 2020; Vol. 804, c. 1346.]

I agree with that—and it was from the Labour spokesman in the House of Lords at a similar urgent question on Friday. I think we can all agree that BAE Systems and others in this field do a great job for the UK overall.

Richard Thomson Portrait Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The United Nations has verified that, since 2015, at least 7,700 Yemeni civilians have been killed, with 60% due to bombing raids by the Saudi-led coalition. The Committees on Arms Export Controls have recently been re-established. Can the Minister give the House an assurance that, if that Committee were to choose to investigate British arms sales that are leading to arms reaching the Saudi-led coalition, his Department will co-operate fully?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Our Department always co-operates with Select Committees. If the hon. Gentleman’s point is that that Committee should follow a particular course, he needs to speak to its Chair, my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier). I suggest that he makes his representations to the Chair.

John Howell Portrait John Howell (Henley) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

How will this sort of action against Saudi Arabia achieve reciprocity in the Yemen? There are two sides to this conflict. One is led by the Houthis and their backers, Iran, and we have no examples of how to control the arms sales that go to them.

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend has expertise in this area. He will know that those are matters for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and I am sure he is making representations to it. I will certainly make those representations. He will know that the Government are involved considerably on the diplomatic front to seek a resolution of the conflict in the Yemen.

Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi Portrait Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

More than five years of death and destruction in Yemen has created the world’s worst humanitarian crisis, and the Yemeni people are rightly looking to us to show compassion and leadership. Despite compelling evidence that the Saudi-led coalition has violated international humanitarian law, a day after the Government finally held Saudi Arabia accountable for the brutal murder of Jamal Khashoggi, they announced the resumption of arms sales for use in the war in Yemen. Can the Minister see that this all makes the Government’s avowed concern for human rights look inconsistent, if not downright hypocritical?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

No, I do not agree with that at all. I have already answered the question on the relationship between the announcement last week, which concerns individuals’ human rights, and this announcement in relation to the consolidated criteria for export controls.

Andrew Murrison Portrait Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The right hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) is right to ask her urgent question. None of us wants to add to the awful situation in Yemen. Paris is working hard with Berlin to finesse the German ban on German componentry in French arms exports. France has a more questionable approach to the consolidated criteria than this country does, and its arms exports are skyrocketing. What are we to do about this? I fear that the action urged by the right hon. Lady will have the effect of exporting jobs from her constituency and mine to France—a country with a far more questionable approach to the consolidated criteria—and will have no effect whatsoever on the welfare of people in Yemen.

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My right hon. Friend may well be right, but it is important from our perspective to make sure that the UK does adhere to and follow the consolidated criteria. That is absolutely the basis of our policy in this area: we must stick rigidly to assessments based on the consolidated criteria.

John Cryer Portrait John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Government lost the Appeal Court case, then admitted that they had contravened the instructions given by the Appeal Court, then abandoned their own appeal to the Supreme Court, and have now decided, after abandoning the Court case, that they are going to resume arms exports. Could not the Minister at least agree to publish the reasons for the resumption of issuing licences, with sensitive parts either taken out or redacted?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We have published the reasons why we are doing the policy that we are doing. We published that in the form of a written ministerial statement to the House of Commons last week, and actually that is the subject today. On the hon. Member’s wider point about why we have withdrawn the appeal, we do not think the appeal is necessary any more. We have in place the revised methodology, and we are putting in place the process to withdraw the appeal.

Brendan O'Hara Portrait Brendan O’Hara (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Last week, the Foreign Secretary revealed a new and seemingly ethical dimension to the UK’s foreign policy, yet within 48 hours we were back selling arms to Saudi Arabia and this Government were refusing to take action against their friends in Bahrain who are about to execute two more political prisoners. Is it not the truth that it is business as usual for any regime—however brutal, however undemocratic—as long as its pockets are deep enough and this Government think there is something to be gained? Is that not the squalid truth?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

No, it is not.

Bob Blackman Portrait Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The humanitarian situation in Yemen is, of course, a proxy war between the Saudi Arabian-led coalition and the Iranians and their proxies, with the innocent civilians in the middle of it. What efforts is my right hon. Friend making to use his Department’s capability on trade to encourage these parties to come to the table and negotiate a political settlement under which Yemen can become a peaceful place for innocent civilians to live in once again?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my hon. Friend for his question. He has great expertise on the region and in these matters. The UK is involved right the way across Government —it is a whole-of-Government effort—to make sure that we seek a diplomatic solution in the region. If the Department for International Trade can play a role in that, we certainly will—and we certainly are. On our relationship with Iran, it is very important that Iran also complies, particularly in relation to trade matters, with the sanctions regime and the World Trade Organisation.

Clive Efford Portrait Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

This decision reduces the bold statements made last week by the Government on human rights and the Magnitsky sanctions to just mere finger-wagging. If that is not correct, to restore the Government’s credibility on this issue, they must publish the evidence on which they based their decisions that these are just mere isolated incidents.

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

First, I could just say to the hon. Gentleman that I refer him to the answer I gave earlier: I have already given repeatedly the reason why we are not publishing the reports on any incidents. Secondly, on the international human rights violations regime launched last week by the Foreign Secretary, we think that new sanctions regime will give the UK a powerful new tool to hold to account those involved in serious human rights violations or abuses.

Chris Stephens Portrait Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Can the Minister provide true clarity about the total value exported to Saudi Arabia, including arms traded through open licences, and will he provide the number for how much the UK has profited from the conflict since the war began?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We publish quarterly the list of licences granted. I would suggest that the hon. Member look at that list.

Harriett Baldwin Portrait Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my right hon. Friend for explaining with great care the strict criteria applied in all export licence cases. Can he update the House on the backlog of export licences? How quickly and carefully can they be reviewed?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Yes, there is a backlog, and it will take a few months to clear it. There are a few hundred applications —something of that magnitude. With the policy we launched last week, however, we will now begin to clear that backlog.

Stephen Doughty Portrait Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Government’s policy seems to be one of abject hypocrisy. The Minister has made a false distinction between the sanctions on individuals and wider policy, which is simply not possible. Let me give him one example. General Ahmed al-Asiri was listed on the Foreign Secretary’s sanctions list last week for his involvement in the unlawful killing of Jamal Khashoggi and for commissioning the team that went to assassinate him. That is the same man who came to this House, this building, on 29 March 2017 to justify to me and many other Members the Saudi actions in Yemen, including the use of British military support. How can it be that we are sanctioning this individual for his unlawful actions and yet he was at the heart of the war in Yemen?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I do not have in front of me information about individuals in any country who are subject to a sanctions regime, but criteria 2c—of the criteria we follow to assess export licences—includes the

“clear risk the equipment being exported might be used in the serious violation of international humanitarian law”.

Those are the criteria we follow when assessing export licences.

Gagan Mohindra Portrait Mr Gagan Mohindra (South West Hertfordshire) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement last week. Would my right hon. Friend elaborate on how the revised methodology differs from its predecessor?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The revised methodology takes into account all the decisions by the Court of Appeal. Were these historic incidents part of a pattern? Even if we could not answer in every incident, we should at least attempt to do so. That is the question the revised methodology is seeking to answer—and I believe does answer—so that we can move forward.

Christine Jardine Portrait Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Saudis are currently taking part in the action in Yemen as part of a coalition. They are also part of a coalition involved in the blockade of Qatar. That is not currently a military action, but what guarantees do the Government have that arms sold to the Saudis for use in Yemen will not be used against another of our allies elsewhere in the middle east?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am not aware of there being any conflict at the moment in that space, but clearly we look at these matters as part of the criteria against which we assess export licences.

Bob Stewart Portrait Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I have great affection for Yemen, having lived there for three years, so after the last massacre of innocents, I managed to get myself to Riyadh and went to the combined air operations centre to examine exactly what was going on. I have to say, having spoken to the air controllers, which included Royal Air Force people, I was most impressed by their orders for opening fire. I spoke to the pilots, and they do not open fire unless they are guaranteed there are no innocents underneath. I presume these factors are taken into account.

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend also has great expertise in this area, particularly in relation to military operations. What may or may not be happening in Yemen is of course taken into account in the assessments done by the Ministry of Defence and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

Dave Doogan Portrait Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

As Amnesty International pointed out in March:

“The conflict in Yemen shows no real signs of abating as it enters its sixth year”.

This will result in even more civilian casualties, both as a direct and indirect result of the conflict. After the UK Government’s arms export policy to Saudi Arabia was found to be unlawful last year, can the Minister explain how continued UK arms sales for potential use in this theatre can possibly help prevent the loss of yet more innocent Yemeni lives?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We have, of course, looked at the assessment of the previous incidents, and I have already described how those incidents must be assessed as having taken place, even if this is still questionable or in any way disputed, as part of that process. We are confident that we now have the right system in place to make sure that there is not a clear risk that the export of arms and military equipment to Saudi Arabia might be used in the commission of a serious violation of international humanitarian law.

Hywel Williams Portrait Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC) [V]
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UK taxpayers provide humanitarian aid to Yemen. Now, we are to supply even more arms to the Saudis. What does that say about competition between UK trade policy and UK aid policy?

Greg Hands Portrait Greg Hands
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Department for International Trade, the Department for International Development and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office work very closely together, and I do not think it says anything but that we are involved in different activities but with the same objective of making sure that UK interests abroad are looked after; that we propagate a strong regime on international human rights protections; that we foster trade, including with countries such as Saudi Arabia, in the region; and that we make sure that we do so with the national interest at the forefront.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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In order to allow the safe exit of hon. Members participating in this item of business and the safe arrival of those participating in the next, I am suspending the House for three minutes.

16:21
Sitting suspended.

EU Exit: End of Transition Period

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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16:24
Michael Gove Portrait The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Cabinet Office (Michael Gove)
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With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement on our preparations for the end of the transition period.

Before I do, may I place on record my thanks—and, I am sure, those of the whole House—for the 20 years of service that Dave Prentis, the general secretary of Unison, has given? Mr Prentis announced today that he will be standing down at the end of this year. He has been an exemplary trade union leader. We have all been reminded during the covid pandemic of how much we depend on the public sector workers he speaks up for. I would like to extend my best wishes to him on his retirement.

On 31 January this year, the United Kingdom left the European Union, and last month we confirmed to our European Union partners that there would be no extension of the transition period beyond 31 December. My counterpart as co-chair of the Joint Committee confirmed that this marked “a definite conclusion” to the matter, and the deadline for extension has now passed. As a consequence, from 1 January 2021 we will embark on the next chapter in our history as a fully independent United Kingdom. With control of our economy, we can continue to put in place the right measures for covid recovery. With control over the money that we send to Brussels, we can spend it on our priorities—investing in the NHS, spreading opportunity more equally across the UK, and strengthening our Union. We are also able to build a trading relationship with our neighbours in Europe that serves all our interests, while also developing new economic partnerships across the world, including opportunities for new and better trade deals with the US, Japan, New Zealand, Australia and many other nations.

The deal the Prime Minister struck last year, which the country backed in the general election, means that we can look forward with confidence to the end of the transition period on 31 December, but of course there is still work to do to prepare. Regardless of the outcome of negotiations with the EU over our future relationship, whether or not we have a Canada-style deal or an Australian model, we will be leaving the single market and the customs union. This will herald changes, and significant opportunities, for which we all need to prepare—Government, business and individual citizens.

So I am announcing today two significant new initiatives that will bring financial support, further clarity, and reassurance for business and citizens. We are launching a major new public information campaign to make sure that everyone has the facts they need about the actions that we all need to take in order to be ready. We are also releasing for the first time an operating model for the border that will benefit importers and exporters, and provide information to hauliers, shippers, freight companies and our customs intermediaries. This comprehensive guidance covers every processing system used across all Government Departments and has been developed after extensive consultation with industry partners, operators and, of course, the devolved Administrations. Together with the additional £705 million package of funding for border infrastructure, extra jobs and better technology, this will help to ensure that our new borders will be ready when the UK takes back control on January. It will assist the smooth movement of goods, and it will also help us to lay the foundations for the world’s most effective border by 2025, making our country more secure and our citizens safer.

Turning to the detail of these initiatives, the public information campaign—“The UK’s new start: let’s get going”—will run in the four home nations and internationally, encouraging us all to play our part in preparing for change. The campaign will be supplemented by the deployment of experts in the field, giving one-to-one support to businesses and their supply chains to ensure that they have made arrangements that will help to keep their operations running efficiently.

From January 2021, in order to fulfil the import process, traders will need to have a GB economic operators registration and identification, or EORI, number before moving their goods. They will need to have the commodity codes of their goods, which will be needed to make a customs declaration and, of course, to calculate duties on an import. They will need to know the customs values of their goods, the rules of which are based on the World Trade Organisation valuation agreement. They will also need to have considered whether they are able to use, and would benefit from using, any of the available simplifications or facilitations, including deferring customs declarations for standard goods. Traders who choose not to defer their customs declarations will also need to ensure that they have considered how they will make those declarations to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs systems, and, of course, whether or not they will use an intermediary. From January 2021, traders who are exporting goods to the EU will need to make export declarations and ensure that they have the right certificates and licences required for entry. While there is still work to do, substantial progress has been made to ensure that we all fulfil our promise to the British people and take back control.

The freedom to control our own borders brings many benefits. Our plans mean that we can introduce a migration policy that ensures that we are open to the world’s best talent, and my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has set out further details of that today. A new, points-based immigration system will ensure that we can attract the scientists, innovators and entrepreneurs who can power future economic growth. It will also help us to ensure that our NHS attracts the very best professionals from around the world to our hospitals. The new technology that we are introducing will allow us to monitor with far greater precision exactly who and what is coming into and out of our country, enabling us to deal more effectively with organised crime and other threats.

Control of our borders also means that we can choose the right trade and commercial policies for this country. The border operating model that we have published today provides clarity about the end-to-end journey of goods on the move between Great Britain and the EU, including information about controlled goods and the new Government systems that will support future trade. I place on record the Government’s gratitude to the border sector for the practical knowledge, enthusiasm and expertise it has brought to the development of the operating model, which is the result of extensive consultation and collaboration.

It is important to note that, as the document makes clear, the border operating model does not cover matters relating specifically to the Northern Ireland protocol. I reassure the House that guidance specific to Northern Ireland will be published in the coming weeks and on an ongoing basis throughout the transition period.

With autonomy comes the freedom to be practical and pragmatic in implementation, which is why, in the light of coronavirus and to give business and industry more time to adjust, we announced last month that border controls would be introduced in three stages up to 1 July 2021. In the first phase, from January 2021, traders importing standard goods will need to prepare for basic customs requirements. Full customs declarations will be needed for controlled and excise goods—such as alcohol and tobacco products—but people importing standard goods will have up to six months to make their declaration and to pay tariffs. Traders moving goods using the common transit convention will need to follow all the transit procedures.

In the second phase, from April 2021, we will require all products of animal origin, regulated plants and plant products to have pre-notification and the relevant health documentation. Any physical checks will continue to be conducted at the point of destination.

In the third and final phase, from July 2021, traders moving all goods will have to make full customs declarations at the point of importation and, of course, pay relevant tariffs. Checks for animals, plants and their products will take place at border control posts in Great Britain.

When we announced our approach to controls last month, we also confirmed that we would be building new border facilities in Great Britain to carry out the required checks, as well as providing targeted support to ports to build new infrastructure. The £705 million funding injection that we announced yesterday is on top of an already announced £84 million grant to ensure sufficient capacity in the customs intermediary sector. That money will be used to do just that: to prepare our border infrastructure for all the changes by improving and developing IT systems, recruiting more personnel and building new border posts.

The actions that we are taking today are an important step towards readiness for the new opportunities that Brexit can bring. It is time for our new start—time for us to embrace a new global destiny—and therefore I commend the statement to the House.

00:04
Rachel Reeves Portrait Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)
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I thank the Minister for advance sight of his statement. I associate myself with his comments about Dave Prentis, a great trade union leader who is always fighting for a better deal for public sector workers.

It is vital that businesses and jobs are supported and that the oven-ready deal that the country was promised is delivered on this year, yet frankly many of us are worried about whether the oven was even turned on. Alarm bells have been ringing in the Cabinet this past week, expressed by the Secretary of State for International Trade in her extraordinary letter to the Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer written on 8 July. The letter presents a picture of chaos, complacency and confusion right at the top of government. Let me highlight to the House those concerns.

First, the Trade Secretary expresses concern that the UK will be vulnerable to a World Trade Organisation challenge. Will the Government publish their advice and analysis of risk and cost to the Government of such a challenge?

Secondly, the Trade Secretary highlights that there are EU-facing ports where the infrastructure to implement controls does not currently exist. Will the Minister give the country and, indeed, his Cabinet colleague reassurance by publishing all relevant delivery plans, land purchases and rental agreements, with timescales and risks—and not just for the port of Dover? The Labour party wants to see British firms exporting. We do not want to see their goods stuck at ports or, indeed, in lorry parks.

Thirdly, the Trade Secretary is concerned in her letter that traders from the rest of the world could export their goods to the UK through the EU and, in her words,

“undermine the effective operation of our trade policy”

and undermine the collection of tariffs due. How will the Government prevent smugglers from exploiting the phased-in approach to the border? What is the estimated loss to tariffs as a result of the six-month delay to UK border checks on imports travelling through the European Union?

Fourthly, on Northern Ireland, the Trade Secretary said that the digital delivery of the dual tariff system in Northern Ireland is a high risk and that HMRC is planning to apply the EU tariff as a default from 1 January. She adds:

“This is very concerning as this may call into question NI’s place in the UK’s customs territory.”

Those are her words. What risk do the Government attach to that? What reassurance can the Minister provide that the commitments made in the Government’s command paper on Northern Ireland will be fully honoured, and why do we have to wait until the end of this month for the details on Northern Ireland to be published? It is all very well announcing a multi-million pound advertising campaign, but if the right hon. Gentleman cannot persuade his bestest friend in Cabinet that everything is going according to plan, it is hardly surprising that the country is anxious and confused.

A month ago, the Prime Minister said that there was “no reason” that a deal could not be reached by the end of this month. Will the Minister update us on where we are in terms of being on track to meet that deadline, with a deal agreed in the next fortnight? The Government have previously estimated that there will be up to 400 million customs declarations per year. HMRC said that they would cost £32 each, adding up to a staggering £12.8 billion bill for business. Does the Minister have any updated assessment of those numbers and the cost to UK firms?

It is also reported that HMRC is not planning to test the systems until November—a handful of weeks before they are needed. Will the Minister explain why those checks are not taking place sooner, and will he outline what recent engagement the Government have had with Scottish and Welsh Governments on state aid policy prior to the announcements today? More than half of UK trade will experience greater delays, costs and barriers, so what percentage of UK trade will enjoy easier trading terms on 1 January next year?

The best way to help all businesses to prepare is, of course, to agree a deal with the European Union on the terms that we were told to expect. That means no fees, charges, tariffs or quantitative restrictions across all sectors. It does not mean, as we heard in the statement today, customs, physical checks, export declarations, a commodity code, and economic operator restrictions and identification, and it certainly does not mean a living document with guidance that changes day by day.

I am sure the Minister will agree that we should never make promises that we cannot keep, so will he guarantee that the promises made to UK businesses and workers in the Conservative party manifesto in December last year will be honoured, because they are not consistent with the statement that he has delivered this afternoon? Last week, the Chancellor of the Exchequer stood at that Dispatch Box and said that he will do all he can to support British business. Today, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster stands at the same Dispatch Box and is wrapping those businesses in red tape and sending them to a super-sized lorry park in Dover. For the sake of all workers worried about their jobs and all business owners anxious about their future, we need the Government to get this right. I am not convinced that today’s statement does that.

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

May I thank the hon. Lady for her questions and also for her commitment to working collaboratively to ensure that we get the best possible deal in our negotiations with the European Union. Progress has been made, but there are still significant differences between ourselves and the European Union. None the less, I did think it was significant and welcome that, for example, in the Joint Committee, Vice-President Maroš Šefčovič conceded that it would be no longer appropriate for the EU to have an office in Northern Ireland. That is an example of the flexibility that I know Michel Barnier and others are applying in the broader negotiations, and I will seek to update the House on progress in those negotiations at an appropriate time.

The hon. Lady asks about the compliance of our approach with our legal obligations under the WTO. We are absolutely certain that, having taken legal advice, we are compliant. Indeed, Lars Karlsson, a customs expert who appeared before the Committee on the Future Relationship with the European Union recently, said that the issue raised was “not a problem” and that there was no

“violation of international customs principles and the international legislation that the UK is part of under the WTO.”

Of course, it will be removed—the correct process we are taking—on 1 July.

The hon. Lady asks about infrastructure at EU-facing ports. I stress that there are no plans to build a new lorry park at Dover. Indeed, the chief executive of the port of Dover, Tim Reardon, said—again, to the Select Committee chaired by the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn)—that it is

“fair to say”

that traders are

“likely to be ready for the paperwork required to get into and out of France, because those requirements have been set out very clearly for some time now.”

The hon. Lady asks about the danger of lost tariffs. There is no danger of lost tariffs. Every importer will have to pay tariffs; we are simply making sure that the process is staged. It is also important to stress, as a number of those involved in the haulage and freight industries have emphasised, that this phased approach is a sensible and pragmatic way to ensure that we can be in a stronger position.

On the situation in Northern Ireland, the hon. Lady asks whether the EU tariff is the default. No, it is not. She also asks about state aid. State aid subsidy control support for businesses is important, but it is also a reserved matter.

Finally, I quote again from the chief executive of the port of Dover, because the hon. Lady is understandably anxious to ensure that business has all the opportunities we would want to see in the covid recovery. He said that

“being outside the European Union customs code puts the UK in a position where it can develop processes that suit the UK in the 21st century. We do not need to stick with a legacy customs process whose origin can be found in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle in the year 789.”

It is time that we modernised our border and time that we took back control, and that is what today’s announcement will do.

Bernard Jenkin Portrait Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement. I have just stepped out of a meeting with the British Chambers of Commerce, and it very much welcomes the acceleration in implementation, investment and certainty for British business, although it wants as much of that as quickly as possible.

I ask for clarification on two technical matters, and I shall choose my words carefully. First, as long as the Joint Committee is satisfied that goods in transit from GB to Northern Ireland are not at risk of travelling on to the Republic of Ireland, while there may need to be some data transfer, there will be no need for a full import customs declaration to cross from GB to Northern Ireland.

Secondly, now that the implementation of the final UK-EU border will be effectively phased to July 2021, which could violate WTO rules, there will be legal certainty that there will be no extension beyond July 2021, and Parliament can provide that legal certainty in UK primary legislation if it is required.

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am very grateful to the Chair of the Liaison Committee for his thoughtful and detailed questions. On the first, which relates to the Northern Ireland protocol, there will need to be the provision of certain information to ensure that the UK plays its part in the implementation of the protocol by helping to protect the EU single market. We will say more about that later this month.

We are entirely satisfied that the phased implementation of controls is compliant with WTO procedures, but my hon. Friend is right to stress that that is because it is a temporary regime, and we will ensure that there is no alteration to the timetable we have set out.

Pete Wishart Portrait Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
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Here we are: the end game of the disastrous and tortuous Brexit, all summed up neatly in the not-too-catchy slogan, “Let’s get going.” Dominic Cummings must have been up all night thinking of that one.

We are now to have an economic downturn precipitated by covid and compounded by the Government’s hard Brexit. It does not matter what chaos Brexit will bring or what damage it will inflict on the economy—the decimation of key sectors, the chaos at the borders, the threat to livelihoods. All that is supremely inconsequential to all the anti-EU obsessives.

“Let’s get going,” says the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and we in Scotland intend to take him exactly at his word, although perhaps not quite in the way he intended. We fully intend to get going—going from this Government’s disastrous Brexit Britain: 54% of the Scottish people now support Scottish independence, and that support is only going to go up.

As for the Tories, all they can now try to do is impose their will on a recalcitrant Scotland. Their latest wheeze, of course, is to curb devolution, to attack the powers of the Scottish Parliament and to impose a UK single market on a Scotland wanting out of their UK. This, my Brexiteer friends, is the new UK superstate. Remember that word, superstate, when its nightmarish controlling horror was so chillingly and wrongly assigned to the European Union? The superstate is arriving for Scotland, but it is not wearing gold stars on blue; it is wearing a Union Jack. All this will do is turn the trickle of remainers who are now supporting independence into a full-going flood.

All I can say to the right hon. Gentleman is that we will not be participating in this new UK single market, or making it work or implementing it. The only thing we will be doing with it is using it as a recruiting sergeant for more people to support independence. I suppose he now has two choices when it comes to Scottish independence. He could do it easily and conveniently in partnership with us, or he could draw it out in a useless self-defeating process of attrition. Either way, we win. Enjoy your Brexit, my Conservative friends. We will not be coming with you. You may be getting going from the EU, but it is right that we are getting going from the UK.

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is always a pleasure to see the hon. Gentleman, and it is particularly good to see him in his place here in the Chamber. I have to say that that is a particularly brave move, however, given the comments of the First Minister of Scotland over the course of the weekend, because if, as rumoured, the quarantine regulations mean that people cannot move from England to Scotland, he might well be imprisoned in his place here for far longer than he ever anticipated. However, I for one would be cheering if that happened, because I so enjoy his company.

As is the hon. Gentleman’s wont, and his right, he chose to skate lightly over the detail in his response, but he nevertheless made a number of important points. He suggested that, as a result of our departure from the European Union, we would be curbing devolution. That is not the case. More than 100 powers will be returned to the Scottish Parliament as a result of our leaving the European Union. Far from being a power grab, it is a power surge for all the Parliaments of the United Kingdom He also made the point that it is the Scottish National party’s policy to leave the UK but to then join the European Union, which would mean that all those powers that will flow to the Scottish Parliament would be returned to Brussels. This would include the return to the EU of Scotland’s capacity to regulate its own fishing waters, just as Scotland was previously shackled to the common fisheries policy. So the SNP’s position, curiously, is to demand fewer powers for the Scottish Parliament and more powers for the European Commission. Not, I think, a popular view in Fraserburgh.

The hon. Gentleman talked about our proposals, which are designed to ensure that Scotland’s businesses and citizens can continue to sell their goods and services into the rest of the UK. Instead of welcoming that collaborative working, he talked about these policies being a recruiting sergeant for independence. I could say that the mask had slipped, but he has never worn a mask to hide his intentions. He is a separatist and a nationalist. I love him dearly, but as long as he cleaves to that ideology, I am afraid we have to recognise that he is in the wrong boat.

Alexander Stafford Portrait Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The people of Rother Valley voted overwhelmingly for Brexit four years ago, yet still we are here. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the public want to hear more about the opportunities that will come from leaving the European Union, rather than the scaremongering and doing down of our country that we keep hearing from the Opposition Benches?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend makes a good point. It was the democratic decision of the whole United Kingdom to leave the European Union. There are significant opportunities, and one of the points that I alluded to in my statement is that, as businesses prepare for the export requirements that will be needed when we are outside the customs union, that will also equip them all the more powerfully for the new trading opportunities that exist across the globe.

Hilary Benn Portrait Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The right hon. Gentleman says that he is not intending to create a massive concrete lorry park in Ashford. I would gently point out that if the lorries arriving there do not park up and stop, it will be very hard for people to check their paperwork, so the lorries will be parking. Will he clarify something about the site? Will it be used just to check that lorries leaving the UK have the right paperwork, so that they do not clog up the system at Dover and Calais, or will it be used for checks on goods coming into the UK in lorries—or both? And will it be operational, along with the goods vehicle movement service IT system, by the end of this year?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, because he gives me a chance to clarify a number of points. The hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) suggested that we will be building a lorry park at Dover, but as the right hon. Gentleman points out, we are moving infrastructure away from the port. As the chief executive of the port of Dover, Tim Reardon, pointed out to his Committee,

“one of the most helpful things that came out of the Government’s announcement…was the commitment to construct new control infrastructure away from the port…away from the key pinch point”.

Combined with the GVMS system, to which the right hon. Gentleman alludes, that will ensure that we have a free flow of freight and none of the anticipated problems that have been mentioned. That investment in infrastructure will ensure that lorries move out of the UK to the EU with our high-quality goods.

Andrew Mitchell Portrait Mr Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am very glad that my right hon. Friend, with his acknowledged administrative flair, is responsible for this. I want to raise an esoteric point, which has been brought up by constituents consistently. What will replace the regime that has successfully allowed our constituents to travel in their thousands with their dogs across the channel? Will he try to ensure that the existing pet passport arrangements for dogs and other pets are able to continue after the end of this year?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My right hon. Friend makes an important point. Like me and many of his constituents, he is a proud dog owner. Scarlet Mitchell is a previous winner of the Westminster dog of the year competition.

People cherish the opportunity to travel with their pets. If we are not a listed country, there will be additional procedures that pet owners will have to follow beyond those that currently exist, but we are confident that we will be a listed country because we have none of the health risks that the countries that are not listed by the EU have. I am confident that my right hon. Friend and Scarlet Whoosabootiful Mitchell—I believe that is the full name of his pet—will be able to continue to visit France.

Barry Sheerman Portrait Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

May I inform the Secretary of State that, as a member of the Committee on the Future Relationship with the European Union, I find it rather negative of him to take out of context some of the quotes from the witnesses who have given evidence to the Committee? I have heard all the evidence since I have been a member, and my view is that we are heading for a disaster. What would he say to a leading businessman in my constituency, who said that we are staggering because of coronavirus? He said that it is like coming out of the ring having gone 15 rounds with Anthony Joshua, only to find, with the chaos of leaving Europe, that we have Tyson Fury for another 15. Is it fair to do that to our great British public?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Seconds out, round one, I am tempted to reply. The hon. Gentleman knows that I have great affection and respect for him. Indeed, it was his questioning in the Select Committee that helped to elucidate some of the opportunities that leaving the European Union can bring. The customs expert Lars Karlsson, who spoke before the Committee, said:

“It is a great opportunity because part of the UK’s strategy and global vision for trade opens up a totally new industry here”,

which can be more efficient and bring additional benefits to British business. It is important of course to be aware of the challenges, but also the opportunities.

Julian Smith Portrait Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

With so many of our small and UK-wide businesses struggling to survive following the covid crisis, the idea of adding additional friction and cost to the trading relationship with their biggest market is deeply problematic and worrying. My right hon. Friend has worked extremely hard for the country over the past few months, but I urge him to do everything he can to ensure that the UK gets a deal with minimal tariffs and minimum friction.

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I again thank my right hon. Friend for the role that he played in reconstituting the Northern Ireland Executive earlier this year, which of course has made the whole process of agreeing the approach towards the Northern Ireland protocol and safeguarding the rights of Northern Ireland citizens significantly easier. We should all be grateful for his leadership in that role, which helped advance the cause of peace. On the specific point about securing a comprehensive free trade agreement with the European Union, I am completely with him. I think that it would be better, as the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) also mentioned, for us to have the zero-tariff, zero-quota approach that we can secure through a comprehensive FTA, but I should add that whether or not we secure that FTA, many of the steps that I have outlined today will be required by business as “no regrets” steps anyway.

James Murray Portrait James Murray (Ealing North) (Lab/Co-op) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

At the end of March, I was told by the Minister for Patient Safety, Mental Health and Suicide Prevention, the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Ms Dorries), that

“any European Union centrally authorised”

covid-19 vaccine would

“be authorised in the UK”

during the transition period, and that the Government were

“working to ensure that UK patients can access the best and most innovative medicines”

beyond 31 December 2020. Can the right hon. Gentleman now guarantee that, whatever else changes at the end of this year, there will be no risk of any delay after 31 December in the UK acquiring a covid-19 vaccine in comparison with countries in the EU?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. It is the case that there is global collaboration through the CEPI programme to try to ensure that all countries that are determined to deal with the covid-19 threat can work together to develop a vaccine. We have relationships with European and other nations, which are there to ensure that we are in a strong position to be able to provide a vaccine for our citizens once one is effectively tested.

Rob Butler Portrait Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Buckinghamshire has more microbusinesses than any other county in the country. What steps is my right hon. Friend taking to ensure that those very smallest firms are fully aware of the steps that they will need to take so that they really can get going with the new opportunities they will enjoy after the transition period?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend makes an important point. In Buckinghamshire and elsewhere where there are microbusinesses, they can take advantage of the new information campaign that we have provided. There is an online checker, which will allow them to judge whether they have taken the appropriate steps to be ready to trade. They can also register for regular updates to ensure that they are making progress in a timely fashion, and of course the provision of additional funding for customs intermediaries will ensure that they can have an appropriate freight forwarder or other in order that they can continue to trade freely.

Alison Thewliss Portrait Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP) [V]
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It is perfectly clear from the right hon. Gentleman’s statement that we will actually get more red tape rather than less, as well as additional cost and risk to employers, especially those who employ EU nationals, as they will have to register as Home Office sponsors for the first time. Can he tell me how much that will cost businesses up and down the UK? Does he agree that it is Scotland that is checking, changing and going, with 54% of people now supporting independence?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Lady talks about migration. It is the case that Scotland will benefit, as the whole of the UK will, from a points-based system that ensures that we can have top scientists in Scottish universities and gifted clinicians in Scotland’s superb hospitals. She also refers to an opinion poll. Of course, we had a vote on whether Scotland should be independent in 2014. As it happened, slightly more than 54% of people voted for the United Kingdom to stay together and to be stronger together. We were told that was a once-in-a-generation vote, and I know that that promise will be honoured.

Damian Green Portrait Damian Green (Ashford) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My right hon. Friend may be aware that I consider the decision to put an outbound emergency lorry park in my constituency, near where several thousand new homes are being built on one side and with a large hospital nearby on the other side, to be wrong-headed. Can he confirm that when the Transport Minister writes to me that it is not the Government’s plan to develop this area as a permanent lorry park, that is indeed Government policy, and will he let the House know what environmental impact assessment has been done for the site?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, who does a brilliant job standing up for his constituents. It is not the case that any specific site has been absolutely confirmed. We are in commercial negotiations with a number of sites, and as and when they are confirmed I will let him know. It is also the case, as he rightly points out, that some of the infrastructure will be temporary and some will be permanent. May I extend to him and to all Kent Members of Parliament an opportunity to come into the Cabinet Office to discuss with me and officials the approach that we are taking? I hope that I can provide him and other colleagues with reassurance in that process.

Wes Streeting Portrait Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

There are five and a half months to go and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster still cannot even confirm the site. Will he at least reply to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), who asked specifically whether there will be checks at the lorry park on goods moving to the European continent and coming into the UK? My right hon. Friend also asked—this goes to the heart of the concern raised by the right hon. Member for Ashford (Damian Green)—whether the lorry park will be operational along with the goods vehicle movement service IT system by the end of the year. Can the right hon. Gentleman at least give us that assurance?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is the case that the GVMS will be in place, as all the systems will, so that we can have a fully operational border, and of course the additional infrastructure—the £705 million that we have announced today will ensure that it is in place in time—will be there specifically to ensure that when vehicles arrive in Calais they have passed through all the necessary checks and can then proceed smoothly to market.

Mark Pawsey Portrait Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
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Many businesses in Rugby trade with companies across Europe, and I wonder therefore what assessment my right hon. Friend has made of their current state of readiness for the end of the transition period. Will he say a little more about the steps he is taking to ensure that retaining and growing that business becomes easier, rather than more difficult?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend makes an important point. A significant number of businesses have taken significant steps in order to prepare themselves for life outside the customs union and single market, but one of the reasons for the campaign we are launching now is to ensure that every business has the information it needs. I hope to work with my hon. Friend and other hon. Members in order to ensure that business has the support it needs to take advantage of the opportunities and also to deal with the changes that are coming next.

Nick Smith Portrait Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It was only yesterday that the Government announced £100 million to develop HMRC systems to reduce the burden on traders. Why have these systems not already been developed?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

They have; we are just improving them.

Stephen Farry Portrait Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Today’s statement sets out the brutal reality of Brexit for the GB to European Union interface but does not address Northern Ireland. We do not have the luxury of a phased roll-out—things have to be in place for 1 January—so can the right hon. Gentleman give us a firm commitment that there will be at least the same level of detail as that published today before the end of this month for the Northern Ireland protocol, given that we have at least five different regulatory checks that have to be put in place?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
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I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for drawing an appropriate distinction between the border operating model between GB and the EU and the Northern Ireland protocol, and it is the case that more detail will be published later this month. Indeed, the Specialised Committee is meeting later this week in order to refine that.

Tom Randall Portrait Tom Randall (Gedling) (Con)
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At the weekend, the shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster said that these measures were “too little, too late”, but would we not have left the EU earlier and with less uncertainty had it not been for the attempts of Opposition Members to dither and delay and postpone our exit from the European Union, denying the will of the people of Gedling and the British people?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
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My hon. Friend makes a very fair point. I exempt the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) from any criticism, but it is the case that, while she might have wanted more spending on infrastructure, one of the things that her party was committed to right up until the general election was staying in the customs union and the single market. It was Labour policy then not to spend this money at all and not to implement this programme at all but, as I have said, I exempt the hon. Lady from any particular criticism, because I know that she is committed, like I am, to doing the best for British business.

Wendy Chamberlain Portrait Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD)
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In today’s statement, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has acknowledged some of the costs and attempted to highlight the opportunities of Brexit, but opportunities in financial terms currently equate to zero. Those who said leaving the EU would mean additional costs and bureaucracy were right, and some of these costs are now becoming clear: more money, on top the £100 million previously spent, on comms, and now £705 million on border infrastructure—no frictionless trade after all. When will the Government be in a position to respond to the 50 questions raised today by the Food and Drink Federation, particularly the how?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the hon. Lady. I and my colleague the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs will respond to the Food and Drink Federation’s helpful questions. The FDF has been a valued partner in our preparation for our departure from the European Union and I would like to pay tribute to Ian Wright and all those who work for the FDF for making sure that they work with us in order to provide every part of the supply chain with the information it needs.

Justin Madders Portrait Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

By my reckoning, the grant being offered to the customs intermediary sector will probably cover the costs of the customs officers that will be needed for about a couple of weeks, so what estimate has the right hon. Gentleman made of the annual cost to UK businesses of complying with the new customs rules?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I should gently correct the hon. Gentleman: it is not the case that the grant is there for customs officers, HMRC staff or Border Force staff. The £84 million is there for customs intermediaries, who are commercial actors, and, as was pointed out in the quotations that I used earlier, this is a significant opportunity for the UK to grow rather than retreat.

Jason McCartney Portrait Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I have been speaking to local business bosses recently who are very much looking forward to having the opportunity to trade freely with the rest of the world. With that in mind, will my right hon. Friend confirm what support will be available for those individual businesses following the launch of the “Check, Change, Go” campaign?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend is absolutely right: there will be significant new opportunities, and as businesses prepare for life outside the customs union with the help and support that we are announcing today, that will equip them more easily to take advantage of global trade opportunities. We will make sure that there is a field force of appropriate advisers to supplement the online checker, which I know he and I will bring to the attention of the businesses in our constituencies.

David Linden Portrait David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)
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In this latest Brexit bingo read-out that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster presented to the House, he wanted to talk about optimism and opportunity, but let me press him on a point that was not in the statement, relating specifically to the Erasmus scheme. Many young people at Lochend Community High School in Easterhouse were able to take part in the Erasmus scheme. With five and half months to go, what hope and opportunity can he offer them, or is it the case that this Tory Government are taking away that opportunity?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
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After consultation with the devolved Administrations, we are negotiating to seek a potential continuation of involvement in the Erasmus scheme, as we are seeking to continue participation in scientific collaboration as well. One thing that I would say about the fate of children in Easterhouse and in other parts of Glasgow is that their life chances have fallen backwards relative to other parts of the United Kingdom as a result of the education policies that the Scottish Government have put in place. It used to be the case that Scotland was ahead of England in international league tables for reading, writing and mathematics. It is now the case that Scotland has fallen behind, and the response from the Scottish Government has been no longer to participate in some of those international comparisons. Hiding from scrutiny is no way to help Scotland’s children.

Lia Nici Portrait Lia Nici (Great Grimsby) (Con)
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As the Government invest in new border control infrastructure to ensure that we can continue to trade smoothly with the EU once we go beyond the transition period, does my right hon. Friend agree that that will create more local jobs to support ports such as Grimsby and Immingham?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
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My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is the case that Grimsby and Immingham are hugely important ports not just for EU trade, but for rest-of-the-world trade. As I mentioned in quoting from the authoritative figures who appeared in front of the Future Relationship with the European Union Committee, there are significant opportunities for people to play a role in the expansion of international trade. These are new jobs, which are designed to make sure that Britain goes global.

Stephen Timms Portrait Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
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Last September, the Minister acknowledged that there is a material risk of long delays at Dover. Will he tell us what his current assessment of that risk is? The Freight Transport Association pointed out that there are only 300 spaces in the lorry park at Calais, where thousands of lorries coming from Dover are likely to be checked every day. Is he now proposing that all 10,000 lorries heading for Dover will be checked somewhere in the UK before they arrive there? How many officials will it require to carry out those checks, and will he tell us the shortlist of locations where those checks might be carried out?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for referring back to the time when I appeared in front of the Exiting the European Union Committee, chaired by the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn). The situation has changed since then as a result of the investment that we put into infrastructure and the refinement of systems and greater clarity. I quoted earlier Tim Reardon of the port of Dover, who said of hauliers:

“It is fair to say that they are likely to be ready…because”

the requirements that they have to fulfil

“have been set out very clearly for some time now.”

I am confident that the steps that we have already taken and the announcement that we are making today will help to ensure the free flow of trade.

Virginia Crosbie Portrait Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con)
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In my constituency I have Holyhead port, which is the second busiest roll-on roll-off port in the UK. We have seen investment in Dover. Can my right hon. Friend assure me that the freight in Holyhead will be checked, and what does that mean for jobs, skilled employment and investment, which are so desperately needed in Ynys Môn?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
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I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding us of the vital role that the port of Holyhead in Anglesey plays. I had the opportunity to visit Holyhead last summer, to see the superb work that was being undertaken by her constituents. I can assure her that, whether it is trade with the Republic of Ireland or beyond, we will do everything we can—working, of course, with the Welsh Government—to ensure that the commercial opportunities for those in Holyhead who do so much for our trade are enhanced.

Sarah Owen Portrait Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab) [V]
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Vauxhall and the workers who keep it going are fundamental to Luton’s economy, and a third shift of workers are starting, so that the company can meet the high demand for our tremendous Luton-made vans. However, without a tariff-free trade agreement, future investment is uncertain for manufacturing across the country. Without soundbites or slogans, can the right hon. Gentleman tell me what genuine progress has been made towards a trade deal that protects the future of car manufacturing in the UK?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
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The hon. Lady makes an important point. The success of the automotive sector in not just Luton but Sunderland and across the United Kingdom is a matter of importance to people across the House. That is why we are pursuing a zero-tariff, zero-quota arrangement. As she will know, there has been significant onshoring of capacity from other European countries into the UK, not least in Sunderland, and that is something we want to build on. I will do everything I can to ensure that she and other MPs who represent constituencies with significant automotive interests are kept informed about the progress of our negotiations, because of course, we put the interests of her constituents first.

Peter Bone Portrait Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) [V]
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I thank my right hon. Friend for updating the House, as he does on a regular basis. I wonder whether he has had an opportunity to see the report published today by the Centre for Social Justice entitled “It Still Happens Here: Fighting UK Slavery in the 2020s”, which estimates that there are 100,000 modern-day slaves in this country. Allowing free movement of people has made that a lot easier for evil human trafficking gangs. Can he confirm that, from 1 January, we will take back control of our borders, and that one of the huge benefits will be that we can clamp down on these evil gangs?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
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I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that issue. He has been a consistent opponent of modern slavery and human trafficking and has done an enormous amount to draw it to the attention of others and to demand and secure appropriate action. It is only right that Members across the House recognise the consistent campaigning energy that he has brought to this important issue. It is also important to say that, as we take back control of our borders and move to having greater data and a more effective approach to monitoring who and what comes into this country, we can play an even more prominent part in dealing with that evil trade.

Alyn Smith Portrait Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP) [V]
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No amount of soundbites or slogans can distract from the fact that Brexit, which I regret, has already made a lot of people poorer. That will only continue, and I have a concrete example. From January, a married couple in my constituency who are in their early 70s will need to pay £166.22 per month to replicate what they already have through the European health insurance card, which they are losing against their will. Would the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster like to come to Stirling to explain to them how their freedom and opportunity to pay more money to replicate what they already have makes their life better?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who was a distinguished Member of the European Parliament, for raising that case. I would be more than happy to come to Stirling and to receive additional information about the specific case that faces his constituents. It would be my pleasure to do everything I can to ensure that we can resolve the system. On the basis of what he says, I think there may be some miscommunication, but let me commit to doing my very best to resolve the situation on behalf of his constituents.

Robert Halfon Portrait Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con) [V]
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When we leave the EU we will no longer be subject to the Official Journal of the European Union and, as my right hon. Friend knows, public sector procurement contracts are now worth about £250 billion a year. So will he change public sector procurement rules to ensure that any large private company bidding for a public sector contract must have an apprenticeship commitment guaranteeing that a certain proportion of its workforce will be apprentices?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My right hon. Friend makes a very important point. He rightly says that outside the EU we can shape our own procurement rules, in our own interests, and that we should do everything possible to encourage the wider spread of apprenticeships, which do so much to improve social mobility and indeed the effectiveness of British manufacturing. I will look in detail at his specific proposal to see what we can do.

Hywel Williams Portrait Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC) [V]
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Further to the earlier question about Holyhead, how much of the £705 million will be going specifically to that port, and to what purpose?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will be able to provide a breakdown, port by port and region by region, in due course, but of course we want to work with the Welsh Government to ensure that appropriate infrastructure is in place not just in Holyhead but at other ports. I am grateful for the Plaid Cymru endorsement of UK Government spending in Wales in order to strengthen our Union.

Paul Bristow Portrait Paul Bristow (Peterborough) (Con)
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Does my right hon. Friend recall that last year some Opposition Members were clambering aboard the Eurostar to tell the Commission not to agree a deal? We left with a deal, despite what they said and their best efforts to block it. Does he agree that we will end the transition period on good terms at the end of the year, despite what some have been saying throughout this process?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. As I said earlier, I exempt the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) from this, but some Members of other parties did seek to work with the Commission against the interests of this country, and the country decided what it thought of that on 12 December.

Philippa Whitford Portrait Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

With the threat of a no-deal Brexit last year, drug stockpiles were established to reduce the risk of shortages, particularly of insulin, which is largely imported from the EU. What state are those stockpiles in now? If businesses are struggling to prepare for Brexit in the middle of the covid crisis, how does the right hon. Gentleman expect healthcare services to manage?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for making that point. As the whole House knows, she is a very distinguished NHS consultant and she is right to raise the issue of insulin, along with that of other drugs and medical devices we need. The Health Secretary and his Department are working with mine to ensure that we have stockpiles for any eventuality, but I will look forward to updating her, with the help of my right hon. Friend, in due course.

Mark Harper Portrait Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I listened carefully to all the questions coming from those on the Opposition Benches about paperwork and checks, but when my right hon. Friend is talking about these issues will he remind the public that more than half of our trade comes from outside the EU, that data is transferred electronically and so there is very little paper, and that we check things only where there is a risk to our border? We do not open every vehicle and we are not going to do it in the future.

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My right hon. Friend makes an excellent point. He is right to say that some who comment on these matters sometimes take an antiquated view of customs procedures, suggesting that every consignment is opened by a uniformed figure who pokes around for hours on end. In fact, this is a streamlined electronic process, one which, as he rightly points out, has also seen the share of trade that the UK has with the rest of the world grow and the share it has with the EU diminish, even while we were in the single market. The changes we are making will provide us with an opportunity to be even more effectively integrated with the growing economies of the world.

Kenny MacAskill Portrait Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (SNP) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Scots were told that remaining in the Union and Brexit would assure Scotland of a powerful voice in the world, while independence would mean being a small nation without influence, like Ireland. Now that Ireland has a seat on the UN Security Council, the President of the Eurogroup, the chief economist of the European Central Bank and the EU Trade Commissioner, can the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster tell me where Scotland’s powerful equivalent is?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who of course was a very distinguished Minister in a previous Scottish Government. I will take nothing away from the achievements of the people of the Republic of Ireland, led as they are by their new Taoiseach Micheál Martin. They can look confidently to the future. However, it is a fact that, were the policies he advocates to be taken forward, we would find a border control at Berwick, you could not use the pound sterling in Stirling, and, as a result, there would be economic turbulence for the people who I know are closest to his heart. That is why I believe we are stronger and better together. As a result of having talented advocates like him in this Westminster Parliament, we can achieve more for all parts of the United Kingdom.

Gareth Johnson Portrait Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The UK leaving the European Union provides some fantastic opportunities for this country, but inevitably, as we leave the EU, new procedures will be used at the port of Dover. What plans have the Government put in place to communicate with foreign lorry drivers going through Kent to ensure that there is no excessive delay?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend makes an important point. Part of the information campaign we are launching today is aimed at businesses in the European Union, as well as at UK businesses, to ensure they are aware of what they need to do. Awareness is high.

Kim Johnson Portrait Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the Minister answer concerned residents living near the site of the lorry park in Kent, who will want to know if an assessment of noise and air pollution will be published?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

As I mentioned earlier, there are a number of potential sites in Kent and we will make sure that, whichever site is chosen, the appropriate procedures are followed to safeguard not just the commercial life of the nation but the interests of nearby residents.

Richard Graham Portrait Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Last year, the previous head of Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs said that less than half of the 130,000 UK businesses exporting only to the EU had engaged on likely changes. While understandable then, it is vital that that changes now. Will my right hon. Friend strive to deliver the comprehensive free trade agreement that everyone on both sides of the England Channel needs? Will he also mobilise the army of British Chambers of Commerce, the Federation of Small Businesses, growth hubs and other organisations to make sure that their seminars are planned as soon as possible, with frequently answered questions, so that when the rules change on 1 January our many exporting small businesses do not find this a surprise?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I should say that he has been a very effective advocate for Britain’s global trading future, making sure that rising economies in east Asia have the opportunity to work well with UK businesses. He is also right that we need to work together—Government, business representative organisations and others—to ensure that businesses are prepared. He is right that we do want a comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU, but whether we secure that agreement or not outside the customs union we will need to adapt to a new approach. We need to work together to ensure we can do that properly.

Rob Roberts Portrait Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I was asked by a friend yesterday why I wanted to be a Conservative MP. My answer, very simply, was empowerment. I have always felt that the Conservatives are all about giving people the tools and choices to make their own lives better. Does my right hon. Friend agree that, after all the predictions of doom and blatant scaremongering from Opposition parties, which, sadly, we are still seeing here today, it is that word “empowerment” that is key to the UK forging a positive way in the world and on which we must be completely focused on all sides of the House and in every nation of our Union?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I completely agree with my hon. Friend. As we know, a majority of people in Wales voted to leave the European Union. They did so as part of a United Kingdom, because they believed it was important that more powers flow to this Parliament, as they will also flow to the devolved Administrations, so that those who represent them are empowered to take decisions in their name. His friend asked him why he wanted to be a Conservative. May I say that I am very glad that he did choose to become a Conservative MP? He is a huge asset to this House. If anyone were to ask me exactly why I became a Conservative MP, I would have to return and reply to the House in due course. All I will say is that it is a pleasure to be on the same Benches as my hon. Friend.

Rosie Duffield Portrait Rosie Duffield (Canterbury) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am greatly concerned, as are very many of my constituents, that the lorry park announced in the newspapers will cause serious tailbacks, another summer of traffic chaos and particular problems for those who are travelling to the nearest A&E department at William Harvey Hospital. Can the Minister assure me that this issue and the potential alarming rise in air pollution—it was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Kim Johnson) but not properly answered—are being addressed properly and seriously for east Kent?

Michael Gove Portrait Michael Gove
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I completely understand, and I hope that the hon. Lady will be able to join me in a meeting with other Kent MPs so that I can provide her with reassurance on that front.

Point of Order

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Commons Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text
17:25
Stephen Doughty Portrait Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. You will recall the urgent question that Mr Speaker kindly granted to the hon. Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) last week, so I regret to inform you that Bahrain’s highest court has today, via Instagram, announced confirmation of the death sentences against Mohammed Ramadhan and Hussain Moosa, who were tortured. That is utterly unacceptable, and the risk that these sentences will be carried out is imminent. Not least given the UK’s direct support for the agencies implicated in the torture and forced confession of these men, and the fact that the Minister for the Middle East and North Africa, the right hon. Member for Braintree (James Cleverly), said that he would speak “publicly and loudly” if the death sentences were confirmed today, have you had any notice of a statement from the Foreign Office on what it now plans to do? That might include raising this at the highest levels, including with the King, to urge clemency.

Rosie Winterton Portrait Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving me notice of this point of order about what is clearly a very distressing matter. I have not received notice of an oral statement on it, but I am sure that his request and his plea for action will have been heard by the Ministers on the Treasury Bench and will be passed back to appropriate Ministers.

17:26
Sitting suspended.
Supply and Appropriation (Main Estimates) Bill
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 56), That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Question agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
Question put forthwith, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
Question agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.
Stamp Duty Land Tax (Temporary Relief) Bill: Business of the house
Ordered,
That the following provisions shall apply to the proceedings on the Motion for Resolution ‘Stamp duty land tax (temporary relief)’ and to proceedings on any Bill brought in upon the Resolution:
Timetable
(1) (a) Proceedings on the Motion for Resolution ‘Stamp duty land tax (temporary relief)’, proceedings on presentation and first reading of any Bill brought in upon the Resolution, proceedings on Second Reading and in Committee, any proceedings on Consideration and proceedings on Third Reading shall be taken at today’s sitting in accordance with this Order.
(b) Notices of Amendments, new Clauses or new Schedules to be moved in Committee of the whole House may be accepted by the Clerks at the Table before the Bill has been read a second time.
(c) Proceedings on the Motion for the Resolution shall be brought to a conclusion (so far as not previously concluded) two hours after the commencement of proceedings on the Motion for this Order.
(d) Proceedings on Second Reading shall be brought to a conclusion (so far as not previously concluded) four hours after the commencement of proceedings on the Motion for this Order.
(e) Proceedings in Committee of the whole House, any proceedings on Consideration and proceedings on Third Reading shall be brought to a conclusion (so far as not previously concluded) six hours after the commencement of proceedings on the Motion for this Order.
(f) This paragraph shall have effect notwithstanding the practice of the House as to the intervals between stages of a Bill brought in upon Ways and Means Resolutions.
Timing of proceedings and Questions to be put
(2) When the proceedings on the Motion for the Resolution have been concluded and the Bill has been read the first time and ordered to be printed, the Order for the Second Reading of the Bill shall be read.
(3) When the Bill has been read a second time:
(a) it shall, despite Standing Order No. 63 (Committal of bills not subject to a programme order), stand committed to a Committee of the whole House without any Question being put;
(b) the Speaker shall leave the Chair whether or not notice of an Instruction has been given.
(4) (a) On the conclusion of proceedings in Committee of the whole House, the Chair shall report the Bill to the House without putting any Question.
(b) If the Bill is reported with amendments, the House shall proceed to consider the Bill as amended without any Question being put.
(5) For the purpose of bringing any proceedings to a conclusion in accordance with paragraph (1), the Speaker or Chair shall forthwith put the following Questions in the same order as they would fall to be put if this Order did not apply:
(a) any Question already proposed from the Chair;
(b) any Question necessary to bring to a decision a Question so proposed;
(c) the Question on any amendment, new Clause or new Schedule selected by the Speaker or Chair for separate decision;
(d) the Question on any amendment moved or Motion made by a Minister of the Crown;
(e) any other Question necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded; and shall not put any other questions, other than the question on any motion described in paragraph (12)(a) of this Order.
(6) On a Motion made for a new Clause or a new Schedule, the Speaker or Chair shall put only the Question that the Clause or Schedule be added to the Bill.
(7) If two or more Questions would fall to be put under paragraph (5)(d) on successive amendments moved or Motions made by a Minister of the Crown, the Speaker or Chair shall instead put a single Question in relation to those amendments or Motions.
(8) If two or more Questions would fall to be put under paragraph (5)(e) in relation to successive provisions of the Bill, the Chair shall instead put a single Question in relation to those provisions, except that the Question shall be put separately on any Clause of or Schedule to the Bill which a Minister of the Crown has signified an intention to leave out.
Other proceedings
(9) Any other proceedings on the Bill may be programmed.
Miscellaneous
(10) Standing Order No. 15(1) (Exempted business) shall apply to any proceedings to which this Order applies.
(11) Standing Order No. 82 (Business Committee) shall not apply in relation to any proceedings to which this Order applies.
(12) (a) No Motion shall be made, except by a Minister of the Crown, to alter the order in which any proceedings on the Motion for the Resolution or the Bill are taken, to recommit the Bill or to vary or supplement the provisions of this Order.
(b) No notice shall be required of such a Motion.
(c) Such a motion may be considered forthwith without any Question being put; and any proceedings interrupted for that purpose shall be suspended accordingly.
(d) The Question on such a Motion shall be put forthwith; and any proceedings suspended under sub-paragraph (c) shall thereupon be resumed.
(e) Standing Order No. 15(1) (Exempted business) shall apply to proceedings on such a Motion.
(13) (a) No dilatory Motion shall be made in relation to proceedings to which this Order applies except by a Minister of the Crown.
(b) The Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith.
(14) No debate shall be held in accordance with Standing Order No. 24 (Emergency debates) at today’s sitting after this Order has been agreed.
(15) Proceedings to which this Order applies shall not be interrupted under any Standing Order relating to the sittings of the House.
(16) No private business may be considered at today’s sitting after this Order has been agreed.—(Michael Tomlinson.)
Stamp Duty Land Tax (Temporary Relief) Bill (Ways and Means)
Resolved,
That—
(1) This Resolution makes modifications of Part 4 of the Finance Act 2003 in relation to any land transaction the effective date of which falls in the period (“the temporary relief period”)—
(a) beginning with 8 July 2020, and
(b) ending with 31 March 2021.
(2) Section 55(1B) (amount of stamp duty land tax chargeable: general) has effect as if for Table A there were substituted—
“TABLE A: RESIDENTIAL

Part of relevant consideration

Percentage

So much as does not exceed £500,000

0%

So much as exceeds £500,000 but does not

exceed £925,000

5%

So much as exceeds £925,000 but does not

exceed £1,500,000

10%

The remainder (if any)

12%”.

(3) Schedule 4ZA (higher rates of stamp duty land tax for additional dwellings etc) has effect as if for the Table A in section 55(1B) mentioned in paragraph 1(2) there were substituted—
“TABLE A: RESIDENTIAL

Part of relevant consideration

Percentage

So much as does not exceed £500,000

3%

So much as exceeds £500,000 but does not

exceed £925,000

8%

So much as exceeds £925,000 but does not

exceed £1,500,000

13%

The remainder (if any)

15%”.

(4) Paragraph 2(3) of Schedule 5 (amount of SDLT chargeable in respect of rent) has effect as if for Table A there were substituted—
“TABLE A: RESIDENTIAL

Rate bands

Percentage

£0 to £500,000

0%

Over £500,000

1%”.

(5) Part 4 of the Finance Act 2003 has effect as if section 57B and Schedule 6ZA (which concern relief for first-time buyers) were omitted (and, accordingly, Schedule 9 is to have effect as if paragraphs 15 to 16 were omitted).
(6) In a case where—
(a) as a result of section 44(4) of the Finance Act 2003 the effective date of a land transaction falls in the temporary relief period, and
(b) the contract concerned is completed by a conveyance after that period ends, section 44(8) of that Act is not to apply in relation to that conveyance if the sole reason that (but for this paragraph) it would have applied is that the modifications made by this Resolution have no effect in relation to that conveyance.
(7) Section 44(10) of the Finance Act 2003 applies for the purposes of paragraph (6).
And it is declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution should have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968.—(Jesse Norman.)
Ordered, That a Bill be brought in on the foregoing Resolution;
That the Chairman of Ways and Means, the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Steve Barclay, John Glen, Kemi Badenoch and Jesse Norman introduce the Bill.
Stamp Duty Land Tax (Temporary Relief) Bill
Jesse Norman accordingly presented a Bill to make provision to reduce for a temporary period the amount of stamp duty land tax chargeable on the acquisition of residential property.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time now and to be printed (Bill 160) with explanatory notes (Bill 160-EN).

Stamp Duty Land Tax (Temporary Relief) Bill

Second Reading
Rosie Winterton Portrait Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Under the order of the House today, amendments and new clauses to be moved in Committee of the whole House may now be tabled. Hon. Members should table through the Public Bill Office inbox: PBOHoC@parliament.uk. In order to be eligible for selection, Members should table amendments within the next 10 minutes.

17:32
John Glen Portrait The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

There is no doubt that the spring and early summer of 2020 will be forever remembered as one of the most testing periods in our nation’s post-war history. Covid-19 is both a health crisis and an economic crisis. It has tested the public and private sectors in equal measure, just has it has tested the population as a whole. But the virus has been brought to heel, and thanks to our collective efforts we are now in a position where it is safe to reopen our economy.

From the outset of this crisis, the Government have sought to protect business, jobs and incomes. The coronavirus jobs retention scheme and self-employment income support scheme have between them preserved millions of livelihoods through the lockdown. Meanwhile, our VAT deferrals and business rates reliefs, alongside the coronavirus business interruption loans and bounce-back loan scheme, have carried many businesses through the hardest months, so that they now have a fighting chance to recover.

In the autumn, the Government will bring forward a Budget and a spending review that will set out a longer-term strategy for the United Kingdom’s economic recovery.

However, this pandemic is not yet over. Even as we step out of lockdown, a great deal of disruption and uncertainty remains. Many businesses have yet to reopen their doors. Up and down the country, people are worried about whether their jobs will be secure when they return to work, and that is why my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer came to the House on Wednesday to set out the Government’s plan for jobs. As a first step, the Government are introducing a one-off job retention bonus of £1,000, available to employers for each furloughed employee who is still employed as of 31 January next year.

There will also be new, high-quality jobs for hundreds of thousands of young kick-starters. We will invest £1 billion to double the number of work coaches and support the unemployed. There will be more apprenticeships, traineeships and skills funding, and we will bring forward £8.6 billion of investment in our public services and infrastructure to trigger new job creation projects around the country. However, we know that some sectors of the economy have been hit particularly hard, and that is why the Government will support the hospitality and tourism sectors by cutting VAT on food, accommodation and attractions from 20% to just 5% for the next six months. It is why the Government have put in place a £1.57 billion rescue package for theatres, museums and other cultural industries, in recognition of the 700,000 people employed in those sectors and to safeguard the incalculable contribution they make to our national life.

Chris Grayling Portrait Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

May I congratulate my hon. Friend and his colleagues on the Treasury Bench for what I think has been an exemplary response to an unprecedented crisis? He describes the challenges that still remain in the economy. Many people still face tough times, particularly in the events sector, where businesses remain as yet unopened. Many of the people who work in the events and entertainment sector have not, for various reasons to do with their employment or tax status, been able to take advantage of the schemes we have seen over the past few months. Will my hon. Friend, together with his Treasury colleagues, look at whether there are additional things we can do to support those sectors and those people in the months ahead, because for them times are still tough?

John Glen Portrait John Glen
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my right hon. Friend for his kind remarks. There is more work to be done, and I acknowledge the challenges faced by different industries in different ways. We will continue to look very carefully at further interventions that we could make and shall make in the Budget later this year.

I turn to the housing market, which is another example of a sector that has experienced considerable disruption and which brings me to the subject of this Bill. The Government’s plan for jobs will support the construction sector by injecting new confidence and certainty into the housing market. It will do so by ensuring that anyone buying a main home for under £500,000 before the end of March next year will pay no stamp duty whatever.

A thriving housing market is critical for growth and jobs in this country. Most obviously, a healthy labour market relies on people being able to move home to be closer to the jobs that match their skills, but the building industry is itself a major contributor to jobs and prosperity in the country, adding £39 billion a year to the UK economy. House building alone supports up to three quarters of a million jobs, and let us not forget the many related sectors that benefit from property transactions: estate agents, removal companies, furniture retailers, DIY stores, self-employed decorators and so forth. The lockdown sadly brought much of that trade to a juddering halt.

Rightmove estimates that 175,000 sellers were prevented from coming to the market between March and May this year. Meanwhile, HMRC data shows that residential property transactions in May were about 50% lower than the same month last year. For the first time in eight years, house prices have fallen.

Matt Western Portrait Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Minister is making a fair argument in support of the construction and housing sector, but, as he just described, the sector is down by 50% in terms of sales. He will appreciate that the automotive and car sector was down by 97% over the two months of April and May and down by 30% in June. Does he not think that that sector is worthy of support as well?

John Glen Portrait John Glen
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his observations, which he made last week as well. Of course the Government look at all industries. The automotive industry is a key industry, and we are in dialogue with companies across the country looking at the appropriate interventions necessary. Obviously, commercial sensitivities sometimes prevent us from discussing those at the Dispatch Box.

With restrictions easing, the Government have been able to reopen the housing market, and there are signs of tentative movement. Transactions in May were 16% higher than in April. It is crucial to our recovery that we maintain this momentum. People should feel confident to move, to buy, to sell, and to renovate and improve their homes. This is why the Government are cutting stamp duty land tax by temporarily increasing the nil rate band for residential property from £125,000 to £500,000, with effect from last Wednesday—8 July—until 31 March 2021.

Kevin Hollinrake Portrait Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I draw the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial interests. I am very supportive of these measures. One of the risks to the housing market is the withdrawal by the lenders of high loan-to-value mortgages, especially for first-time buyers. We know that 90% and 95% loans can become a self-fulfilling prophecy that damages the market. Will the Minister do whatever he can to make sure that our banks support high loan-to-value mortgages throughout this time?

John Glen Portrait John Glen
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful, as ever, for my hon. Friend’s intervention. Of course, he has enormous expertise in this sector. He is right to say that there is a threat given the changes in the profile of LTV mortgages that are being offered. We hope that that will return to more of the normal schedule that we would have seen pre-pandemic. We will be actively looking at this, and I am in conversations with the banks and building societies about it.

Siobhain McDonagh Portrait Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Does the Minister agree that this is actually more than a threat for first-time buyers at the moment—it is a reality? First-time buyers are queuing online for websites of lenders in an effort to get the small number of 5% deposit mortgages. Providing more incentive to people who already own their own home or are part of the buy-to-let market effectively crowds out first-time buyers.

John Glen Portrait John Glen
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Lady for her point. I would look at it in terms of opening up the market, creating more churn and momentum that allows all participants to be able to get on the housing ladder.

The Government’s cutting stamp duty land tax in this way will mean that nine out of 10 people buying their main home will pay no stamp duty at all, and buyers can save up to £15,000. In my own constituency, the average family looking to buy a home worth £349,000 will go from paying £7,450 in stamp duty to absolutely nothing. Indeed, this Bill will take most properties outside of London and the south-east out of stamp duty entirely.

The Bill is the latest in a long line of measures from this Government designed to support current and prospective homeowners in this country. Historically, stamp duty has been charged at a single rate on the whole purchase price of a property, with different rates for different value bands. The same rate of tax was charged irrespective of the number of properties owned by the buyers. In 2014, the Government reformed stamp duty land tax on residential properties, cutting the tax for 98% of buyers who pay it, unless they are purchasing additional property. In 2015, the Government introduced the higher rates of SDLT, which apply on purchases of additional residential properties such as second homes and buy-to-let properties. Finally, in 2017, the Government introduced first-time buyers relief. This increased the price at which a property becomes liable to pay stamp duty, for first-time buyers, from £125,000 to £300,000, with a reduced rate between £300,000 and £500,000.

Together, these reforms have made the tax system fairer and more efficient. They have cut the cost of home ownership for first-time buyers, helping more than 500,000 families to secure a foot on the housing ladder. This Bill will cut the cost of home ownership further, at a time when personal finances are under considerable pressure. In doing so, it will inject new momentum into the property market, protecting thousands of jobs in both the construction industry and the wider economy.

This stamp duty cut is one of several measures in the Government’s plan for jobs that will benefit families and businesses across the country. From September, homeowners and landlords will be able to apply for a green homes grant of up to £5,000 to make their homes more energy efficient. For low-income households, we will go even further, with vouchers covering the full cost up to £10,000. This, too, will support local jobs, as well as reducing carbon emissions and cutting energy bills for hard-pressed families.

Craig Mackinlay Portrait Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I wonder if the Minister could clarify a couple of points. On the 31 March date, we all worry that this will end up being a cliff edge, as the date approaches. Will that be the date of exchange, which is usual, I think, in these matters? Is he not concerned about that cliff edge? For some people, for no reason of their own, late finishing of their property will mean they fall the wrong side, very expensively?

John Glen Portrait John Glen
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my hon. Friend for his point. We are in a situation where, if the transaction is substantially completed by 31 March, it will be able to qualify for the relief.

Almost four months ago, the Government took the extraordinary step of ordering businesses across the country to close for an extended and unspecified period of time. Millions of people put their lives on hold for the greater good, but now that the virus is under control, the time has come to reopen our economy. Providing infection rates remain low, people should be able to get on with their lives, wherever possible. There are few aspirations more important to the British people than home ownership, and this Bill will ensure that those looking to buy a family home will see their stamp duty bill disappear altogether. It is part of our plan to turn our national recovery into millions of stories of personal renewal. In doing so, it will stimulate the housing market, safeguarding many thousands of jobs and helping Britain to bounce back stronger than before. For all these reasons, I commend the Bill to the House.

17:47
Dan Carden Portrait Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I welcome this opportunity to debate one of the key planks of the Government’s summer economic update presented to this House last week.

As the Opposition, we have repeatedly said that we will work with the Government where we can to support people through a crisis the like of which none of us has ever known. That is exactly why we called on the Chancellor to abandon his one-size-fits-all approach to support for businesses and workers. It is why we called on him to recognise that this is a sectoral crisis that affects some areas of the economy much more than others, and it is why we called on him to come forward with a full back-to-work Budget that would really target Government support to those who need it most.

Instead, what we got was a limited statement that fell far short of grasping the scale of the challenge the country faces at this time of national crisis. We got blanket giveaways, such as the job retention bonus that risks handing billions of pounds to companies for employees who would have been brought back to work anyway. And we got this Bill, which the Government hope will get the housing market back on its feet and support wider economic growth.

Let me be clear from the outset that we do not oppose the principle of additional support for homeowners and buyers, and action to stimulate the housing market. Many people hoping to buy their first home or move home will have been stopped in their tracks by Government advice at the outset of this crisis not to move house—a measure rightly designed to keep people safe. Since then, those wishing to buy or sell have been trapped in a state of limbo for months on end. Many transactions will have collapsed during the hard lockdown period, with significant potential financial losses in conveyancing fees, solicitor fees and other costs involved in buying or selling a home. We understand those difficulties and uncertainties. The impact of the events of the past few months on house prices and on household incomes will mean that many people can no longer afford to move. Their dream home may now have to remain just that—an impossible dream—so it is right that we consider carefully how we can help them, but I do not think the Government have given careful consideration to the Bill or its impact on the housing market.

The Bill existed only in the Chancellor’s mind a week ago. It is a Bill that the Chancellor did not intend to present to the House today; it was supposed to be part of the autumn Budget process later this year. We know that because the Government themselves told us—or at least someone in Government did. We only have to cast an eye back to The Times article last Monday on the Chancellor’s plans for a

“Stamp duty ‘holiday’ to help rebuild economy”,

to be introduced “in the autumn Budget”.

As is so often the case with this Government, whoever briefed the press about the plans had not read the small print. Had they done so, they surely would have realised that announcing a stamp duty holiday three months early would crash the housing market this summer. It was left to others to point out the flaw in the Chancellor’s cunning plan. My hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor was quick to respond, saying:

“Even the possibility of a stamp duty change later this year”

would

“shut down the housing market in one fell swoop.”

Helen Miller, deputy director and head of tax at the Institute for Fiscal Studies, called the plans “mad.” The former Member for South West Hertfordshire and former Chief Secretary to the Treasury, David Gauke, said:

“Even 2 days of speculation”

over such plans would be

“unhelpful but 4 months…would be hugely counter-productive.”

Alun Cairns Portrait Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am interested in the theme of the debate the hon. Member is pursuing. The negative connotations that he presents apply exactly to the system that already exists in Wales. The Welsh Government have not yet offered any reduction in land transaction tax, in spite of their being given the resources by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. Will the hon. Member therefore call on them to follow the model that is being pursued in this place? Or will he say that they should not do it and that people should remain—to use the hon. Member’s phrase—in a state of limbo?

Dan Carden Portrait Dan Carden
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful for that intervention; I will go through my argument and analysis of the Government’s proposals in the Bill.

We do not know—perhaps the Minister does—who briefed what to whom last week, but the fact that the policy was leaked in advance forced the Chancellor’s hand. Just a day after The Times article appeared, another one in The Telegraph said that the cut would be introduced “immediately”. Policy making by briefing is no way to run a Government; it is either clumsy or irresponsible, or another example of No. 10 advisers running roughshod over the Chancellor.

We would rather the Government focused their energies on helping those people trying to buy or sell their home in such difficult circumstances, which is why, rather than opposing the Bill, we want to probe the Government on who will benefit the most from it. We are concerned first and foremost about whether the Bill will target support at those who need it most. We have serious concerns about the cost to the Exchequer and whether it is justifiable in terms of the Government’s other spending priorities.

We have serious questions about why the Bill includes significant support for second homeowners—plans that were slipped out by the Treasury after the Chancellor delivered his statement. We need to understand why the Government have decided, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire) said last week, to direct a huge bung to second homeowners, landlords and holiday-home buyers while millions of people are desperate for support. The provisions in the Bill are an unnecessary subsidy for second homeowners that will only worsen the housing crisis by reducing the supply of homes overall.

Kevin Hollinrake Portrait Kevin Hollinrake
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that 90% of the people who benefit from the change will be buying their main home, not a second home? Does he think it is a good idea to cut stamp duty at this moment in time? If he does, can he explain why, with the Conservative Government cutting it in this recession and having cut it in the first recession that I went through in 1992, the Labour Government did not cut stamp duty in 2008?

Dan Carden Portrait Dan Carden
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Our amendment will be about getting to the bottom of exactly who benefits. The hon. Gentleman gives a statistic there and we have others. I will ask the Minister to explain why he thinks that a potential cost to the taxpayer of £1.3 billion for second homeowners is the right priority during a global pandemic.

Matt Western Portrait Matt Western
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend is being generous in giving way. That is the nub of the point, is it not? There is need to stimulate the housing sector but, as has been said, we need to look at every sector individually to see how it can be supported. Back in 2008, a huge amount of money was put behind manufacturing, and that is what is lacking here, and in what was announced last week.

Dan Carden Portrait Dan Carden
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Of course this is about priorities for Government spending. Time and again, we have called on the Government to put forward a credible plan to build the homes that our country needs. We are also concerned about which parts of the country this Bill will benefit the most. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has said that first-time buyers might be made worse off by the changes.

As the stamp duty threshold for first-time buyers is already set higher—at £300,000—raising the threshold to £500,000 is worth comparatively less for first-time buyers outside London. In fact, it is possible that the Chancellor is removing one of the few advantages that first-time buyers have. Will the Minister comment on the IFS analysis and tell us: will first-time buyers benefit at all?

Mike Wood Portrait Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Does the hon. Gentleman not recognise that, in order for housing supply to be available to first-time buyers, existing homeowners need to be able to move house to move up the housing chain? By supporting them to do so through these measures, it makes it easier for first-time buyers to get their first home.

Dan Carden Portrait Dan Carden
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I heard someone say, “We need to build more houses” and that is absolutely correct. But of course, we support anything that stimulates the housing market and jobs in the supply chain thereafter.

Eight hundred thousand fewer people under the age of 45 own their own home today. This Government have been in power since 2010. Home ownership is at its lowest level in a generation. The Prime Minister has repeatedly pledged to “level up” the country. But the benefits of this cut will be concentrated in London and the south-east.

Estate agent Savills identified the local authorities that will see the biggest fall in tax receipts as a result of the change. Wandsworth, Bromley and Wiltshire will see falls of £40 million, £35 million and £29 million respectively. Rightmove estimates that the average saving in the north-east will be just £646, compared with £15,000 in London. Once again, the Government seem to be prioritising the needs of London and the south-east over those of the rest of the country.

Dan Carden Portrait Dan Carden
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will not because I want to make some progress. I know I am taking up a lot of the time in this debate.

The Government should be taking action to remedy the housing crisis, as part of a wider plan to solve the economic crisis, but as the Bill stands, we cannot be confident that it will do much at all for first-time buyers, never mind the millions facing a housing emergency. It may remove a disincentive to move house and temporarily increase transaction volumes, but of course house sales are currently depressed for other reasons, such as the difficulty of getting a mortgage, people not thinking that their job is secure and huge uncertainty about future house prices.

That is why we propose an amendment to help us to understand the full impact of this cut in stamp duty across the sector. It is a straightforward amendment, which will ensure that we get a clearer picture of how that stamp duty holiday will work for different groups. If the Government believe in transparency in policy making, they have nothing to fear by backing the amendment.

A change as significant as this should not be introduced without a mechanism for assessing how it works and who benefits most. When it comes to the housing sector, Government should be focused on the almost 5 million people in housing need across Britain today. We are in the midst of a housing emergency—an emergency created by decades of underinvestment in affordable social housing. The impacts are stark and have been exacerbated by the covid-19 pandemic, with many people forced to shield and isolate in wholly inappropriate living conditions. The Government should bring forward emergency legislation to provide protection for those who get into arrears as a result of loss of income during the covid-19 crisis. They should change the law to prevent no-fault evictions and change the law on arrears so that people in the rented sector—both social and private tenants—are given breathing space without the threat of eviction if they are unable to pay rent as a result of the crisis. Instead, millions fear the lifting of the ban on evictions on 23 August. Labour’s priority is in investment in social housing, not more support for second home owners.

00:05
Craig Mackinlay Portrait Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I warmly welcome this reduction in stamp duty land tax as part of the covid-19 stimulus provisions. The Minister has outlined very ably the stagnation that we have seen in the housing market over the past few months, with lockdown viewings obviously impossible. That has led to a very serious situation for conveyancers, solicitors, removal companies and all those involved in the supply chain of getting houses sold.

I very much welcome what is, actually, a simplification. We have gone down from six rates to just four. It gives us an opportunity to ask ourselves what is stamp duty land tax for and what is it doing to the residential market. We levy taxes in this country broadly for two reasons. Obviously, the first is to fill the public purse so that the public services that we all know and love—the defence of the realm, our policing, the NHS and everything else—can be paid for. We all realise that that tax cake has to be made up across myriad taxes, allowances and complications—a fairly mind-boggling number of them—and I am not sure that our 23,000 pages of tax legislation are much to be proud of. None the less, SDLT has proven itself to be a useful fill-up to the public purse, and it has been increasing in recent years. The residential market for the last four quarters has provided £8.4 billion in SDLT receipts for the Treasury.

We often use nudge theory—the second arm of tax if you like—to change behaviour. We use taxes to change behaviour, and we saw that with the £300,000 threshold for first-time buyers, which was introduced in November 2017 to help and encourage people into their first homes. We have also used SDLT with the 3% surcharge that came into place under the higher rate for additional dwellings rules that was introduced in April 2016. It is difficult to see exactly what the effect of that higher rate has been because we do not have the equivalent data from before that change happened in the second purchase market. None the less, it was imposed for good reasons and we can discuss that. It was used to dampen down the potential buy-to-let market, allowing more properties to be available to those genuinely seeking owner-occupation. Of that £8.4 billion raised in SDLT over the past four quarters, £3.8 billion has been in that 3% higher rate charge.

The Government have also introduced other tough tax measures, such as limiting the higher rate tax relief for landlords on their interest payments. That has come in over a phased period from 6 April 2017. There has been a restriction of lettings relief, operative from April 2020, for those who used to live in their own home and have now rented it out and it has subsequently been sold. There has been a number of red tape increases, so, for many small landlords, the pursuit of having rental properties has been somewhat dimmed over the past few years—so perhaps these measures have had the effect. There is no doubt that the £300,000 first-time buyer limit has been beneficial in many areas.

We have therefore used SDLT, as a nation, to flex behaviour—to encourage what we perceive to be good behaviour and discourage what is perceived to be bad behaviour, and that is not uncommon across the tax system. We see high rates of tax on alcohol and cigarettes to try to discourage bad behaviour, but then we enter that debate about what is fair. What is fair in capital taxes? We have capital taxes on inheritance tax, capital gains tax and, obviously, SDLT. Are they simply measures to fill the Treasury pot? Are they designed to be penal measures? Are they designed to be redistributive measures? Obviously, there is a wide debate to be had about the suite of taxes that we have, and we probably have 650 different views in the House about what is fair and reasonable.

The reduction in SDLT, with the first £500,000 at 0%, has “nudge” written all over it, because it is deemed a good thing to encourage people to keep the housing market rolling round. The rates that were in effect have obviously been perceived as an impediment to the normal functioning of that market, so, very thankfully, SDLT has been removed for most people until 31 March.

I do not think it even needs stressing that property transactions create a lot of business activity. That is taxable business activity: the conveyancers; the estate agents; the builders; the VAT on DIY sales. Commonly, the kitchen or bathroom gets changed as one of the first measures, and the lids come off the tins of paint that are purchased elsewhere.

But have we created fairness? Is the progressive SDLT banding system, which is continuing, fair? Is it fair that someone who buys a certain type of property in Kent pays more than someone who buys exactly the same type of property in, say, County Durham or elsewhere? They obviously face a higher charge because the value is greater, but then they are penalised for the property price because they enter a higher band. That unfairness is simply due to what could be called national and local planning failure over many decades. That extra SDLT has to be paid out of net salary that has been saved, or perhaps out of additional loans—or, for those lucky enough, from the bank of family.

Labour mobility will be really important in the future. I do not think we will see how important until this period of crisis with covid-19 is over. Employment will change and opportunities will change, and there will be a need for people to pursue jobs elsewhere. SDLT restricts their choice, because someone has to be not just a bit sure but very, very, very sure that the purchase they are making, with the incumbent SDLT, is really the right one. We dare not make a mistake when there are potentially fives or tens of thousands of pounds at stake.

I encourage the Chancellor, in his Budget later this year, to ensure that job mobility forms part of the tax system. Someone may have to rent a property elsewhere to test the area and the market, and they may have to rent out the old property that they leave elsewhere. Surely, there should be a tax relief on that new rent that they pay, against the rental income on the property that they had to leave to seek employment elsewhere. That could certainly be used elsewhere to help to nudge behaviour.

If we are going down the route of nudging through the tax system, let me suggest something that I have often proposed: downsizing relief for the elderly. Far too many elderly people are stuck in a property that is far too big for their current needs. They might have lost their partner, and they are now residing in a property that is simply too big. However, faced with the potential for a big SDLT charge if the rates come back into play after March, many older people will say, “Well, I’m simply not going to pay it. I don’t want to pay £5,000 or £10,000 just to move.” They will stay stuck in an inappropriate property, effectively blocking the bigger properties that many families are crying out for.

My message to Ministers today is that the new rates for SDLT should become permanent, for regional fairness, for job flexibility—that will be really important—and to encourage property transactions. We all know that property transactions create positive taxable work into the future, through either VAT or profits that are taxed through self-employment or a corporate regime.

My concern is that we are now creating a cliff edge. I think that, in the first weeks of April next year, we will all face stories of people who just could not quite get the job done before the cliff edge of 31 March, perhaps because a house that was meant to be built had problems or the builder was delayed; myriad issues could emerge. I feel very sorry for those who, for reasons not of their own making, will find themselves on the wrong side of that cliff edge date that we are creating. So I sincerely welcome these changes, but please let us make them permanent.

18:10
Matt Western Portrait Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)
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It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for South Thanet (Craig Mackinlay). I have some sympathy with several of his points, particularly the one about the cliff edge. We must always be careful, when we introduce any sort of action to stimulate any market, to ensure that it does not have unintended consequences. However, I disagree with his points about capital wealth and growth. I have a fundamental view about earned income resulting from a person’s labour: capital wealth and growth should have no advantage, in the form of a lower taxation regime, over income earned through labour.

The last economic crisis had a huge impact not only on the housing sector but on every sector. Many current Members were in the House during that time—I was not—and we need to understand what the learnings of that crisis were. One thing that we have clearly observed is the extraordinary growth in capital wealth over the past 10 years, and this is where I have a frustration. What I really wanted to see in the Chancellor’s statement last week was a series of sector deals to address each market. Housing would certainly have been one of them, as would its associated industries, but I mentioned in my intervention just how important I believe manufacturing is and should be. If the Government’s ambition is to level up, we need to know what is going to happen to our crucial and vital manufacturing sector, whether aerospace or the automotive sector. Those are the sectors that urgently need the Government’s attention, because they are the ones that stepped up to the plate when required to do so. When the Government needed help—with getting ventilators and personal protective equipment manufactured, for example—it was our manufacturing sector that we turned to. Of course the construction industry plays an important role, and infrastructure investment is vital, but our manufacturing sector has to be there for us tomorrow, and that is where I want to see more urgent and substantial action from the Government.

Last week’s announcement contained an array of measures, but I was disappointed that the Government did not extend the furlough scheme for longer. The hon. Member for South Thanet talked about the cliff edge in March, but I fear that the cliff edge that we are going to see in terms of unemployment over the coming weeks will be quite terrifying. I was also deeply disappointed that no support was provided for our steel industry, our aerospace sector and particularly our automotive sector, which I guess is the one closest to home for me in my constituency, where so many jobs depend on it.

This announcement on stamp duty is a terrific windfall for those who are thinking about buying or selling, but also for those who are already in the process of doing so. I have been speaking to people over the past week, and I have already come across several who have said, “This is wonderful! We were going to sell the house anyway.” Now they will benefit from an average of £4,600. Of course, there is a huge difference between those who are going to sell their house and maybe get a benefit of £4,600 and those who are selling a property at around £500,000, who will suddenly get the benefit of an extra capital gain of £15,000. If this is supposed to be about levelling up, I cannot believe that giving an additional, enhanced reward to those who are already wealthy is really on the Government’s agenda.

Kevin Hollinrake Portrait Kevin Hollinrake
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The hon. Gentleman is aware that it is the purchaser who pays stamp duty, not the seller. This measure will make it more likely, when a person puts their house on the market, that they will transact, sell it and move. That has a knock-on effect into the rest of the economy.

Matt Western Portrait Matt Western
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I thank the hon. Member—I would perhaps describe him as a friend—for that point. Yes, it is the purchaser who pays, but the person who is selling will probably be buying too, such is the chain of sales in the sector. I therefore do not see it as a one-off benefit. It will be a benefit throughout the chain.

I fear that this move is not in tune with the wider public mood. Actually, they want to see more support for those on lower incomes. Perhaps the £1.3 billion that would have been yielded could have been used to better purpose.

Looking at the relative inequality of the past decade, it seems we have not learned from the last economic crisis. That is underlined by figures from the Resolution Foundation, which show the change in median household wealth between 2008 and 2018. The average household saw a loss in wealth of 2% in the west midlands, 12% in the north-east and 13% in the east midlands, while in London the average household gained 78%.

For me, there is an issue with the second homes sector. Previously, a second home owner or buy-to-let landlord would have paid an additional 3% stamp duty surcharge, which would translate into a figure of 8%, rather than 5%. These changes mean that anyone looking to buy a second home at between £250,000 and £500,000 will pay just 3%. Coming back to a point that was made earlier, we need to know the scale of the issue. What proportion of transactions are for second properties? In the last 12 months, 34% of all purchases were made by second home owners. That has to be a concern, because it affects the market to the detriment of first-time buyers.

Andrew Griffith Portrait Andrew Griffith
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I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concerns about rewarding behaviour that was going to happen anyway, but does he accept that the identical criticism could be levelled at a scrappage scheme, which I believe he has advocated?

Matt Western Portrait Matt Western
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I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, but he will know that the automotive sector has been frustrated for many months. Many buyers in the automotive sector are holding off because they do not know whether they should be buying a petrol car, a diesel car, an electric vehicle, a hybrid or whatever. A lot of people have held off changing their vehicle because of the huge changes brought about by the transition in that sector. That is why it is important to the automotive manufacturing sector that we help buyers change their vehicle. All that is happening at the moment is that the purchasing decision is being stalled ever longer. It is not the same in the housing sector.

This £1.3 billion could have been used to fund local authorities, which are seeing a financial hit of £1.2 billion as a result of covid, and to help them through these difficult times.

The Institute for Fiscal Studies has concluded that first-time buyers may be worse off as a result of these proposals. The stamp duty threshold for first-time buyers is currently £300,000, whereas the average price of a property is just £208,000 across the country. That means that most are unlikely to gain from the hike in the threshold from £300,000 to £500,000.

Rob Roberts Portrait Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Con)
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I am confused as to how the hon. Gentleman draws the conclusion that somebody will be worse off from paying exactly the same as they otherwise would have done. The hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Dan Carden) said exactly the same thing—that first-time buyers will lose out. They will not lose out. They were exempt before, and they will still be exempt. It is poor form on his part to mislead first-time buyers into thinking that they are being penalised in some way by this measure.

Rosie Winterton Portrait Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
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I hope the hon. Gentleman is not accusing the hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Matt Western) of misleading anyone.

Rob Roberts Portrait Rob Roberts
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Certainly not, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Matt Western Portrait Matt Western
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Thank you for your help in clarifying that point, Madam Deputy Speaker. What is happening is very simple. The hon. Gentleman is suggesting that there is an advantage that there is certainly not, because what will happen is that those who would have gained the benefit—in other words, those who are below the threshold—will see others who can afford a higher cost pay more, therefore possibly precluding them from purchasing a property. As a result of this measure, I think we will see higher house prices and higher rents. At a time when there is pressure on wages and probably a significant spike in unemployment coming up, that is a real concern. I also think that the benefits will be felt more in the south-east and London.

There is a huge squeeze on the availability of mortgages right now. I am not sure to what extent the hon. Member for Delyn (Rob Roberts) is familiar with it. I am not hugely familiar with it—I will be open and honest—but my understanding is that the availability of mortgages is under pressure. First-time buyers are struggling to get hold of mortgages, for which they need a much higher deposit than they would have needed three or six months ago. They are now looking for a deposit of 15%. Back in my day, it was possible to get a mortgage with a deposit of a couple of per cent., or maybe even 0%, such was the need to get the housing market going at the beginning of the 90s.

The handling of this has not helped. Clearly there was a need for sectoral schemes and stimulus to help the wider economy, but this seems to have been rushed out. These advantages for second home owners, buy-to-let landlords and so on seem to have been slipped out after the Chancellor’s announcement. I do not think that this will be to the benefit of first-time buyers, and that is a massive disadvantage of the whole scheme. It will potentially worsen the housing crisis, and I echo the point made by the hon. Member for South Thanet: there is a real risk of a cliff edge come the end of March next year.

I would like to see these moneys being redirected into social rented council houses, because we desperately need to address this crisis. That would have been terrific. I am not sure that the public will really welcome this, because it is a short-term benefit, and there are much wider issues in the economy that need to be addressed. I urge the Government to rethink this strategy and bring forward measures for the wider economy—particularly, as I keep saying, for the manufacturing sector.

18:23
Sara Britcliffe Portrait Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) (Con)
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The measures that the Government recently announced are an enormous leap forward to get our country up and running again. This pandemic is threatening so many jobs and livelihoods, even in my constituency of Hyndburn and Haslingden. The past few months have been necessary to save lives, but now we need to look to the future and how we can kick-start the economy.

The toils of buying a property are numerous and have been experienced by many. They include working with estate agents, solicitors, mortgage brokers, surveyors—the list goes on. This Government are making it easier and less expensive for buyers who might have been put off purchasing due to uncertainties in the market. Removing stamp duty will save people thousands of pounds—moneys that they can invest in their local economy, which this Government are pushing everybody to do.

According to The Guardian, which I admit is not my usual morning read, Accrington has been recorded by property website Zoopla as among those receiving the most property inquiries in the country since lockdown. People are, very understandably, looking to move to my constituency or relocate locally within Accrington. Either way, the scheme is good news, as many properties will become more affordable thanks to the temporary removal of stamp duty. I am dismayed that the shadow Minister expressed disapproval at our cut to stamp duty—a policy that will put more money in the pockets of hard-working families.

The Conservative party’s priority is clear: create and protect jobs, and support people in finding the ones that are out there. By kick-starting the housing market and boosting confidence, we will drive growth and create jobs. As the Prime Minister’s new deal confirms, a £12 billion affordable homes programme will support up to 180,000 new affordable homes for ownership and rent over the next five years. That builds on the 464,500 new affordable homes built since 2010 and opens up thousands of new jobs.

I am proud to have had the opportunity to speak in this debate, as this plan will give confidence to new buyers and those moving up the property ladder. I thank the Treasury on behalf of those in my constituency benefiting from this scheme. I also thank it for the tremendous work it has done during the pandemic to save jobs and livelihoods across Hyndburn and Haslingden, for which many are eternally grateful.

18:26
Siobhain McDonagh Portrait Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab)
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I rise to speak not as somebody who opposes owner occupation but as somebody who celebrates it. I am new Labour to my core. I want choice and opportunity for all, and this stamp duty measure does not do that. Members would have to believe that we have a perfect housing market in which supply matches demand, but we do not have enough properties of any tenure—whether to rent, buy or socially rent. This measure will squeeze out the people we all want to benefit.

Who benefits from this measure? People in London. Who does not benefit? People in the north-east and the north-west, who already do not pay those levels of stamp duty.

Siobhain McDonagh Portrait Siobhain McDonagh
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No.

The measure allows us to believe that we can change the housing market by tinkering at the edges, but we know that tax forgone is money that cannot be spent on something else.

Owner occupation has reduced since 2000 from a height of more than 70% to 62%, while private renting has gone up by 20%. People aged between 35 and 44 have seen a three times increase in their private rents. I say to hon. Members, from a south London perspective, that no good comes from that. The families I see in private rentals will never escape into owner occupation, as I and my parents had the opportunity to do.

The only way to solve the housing market is by building more homes of all tenures—renting and buying. It is not just me, a Labour MP, who believes that. Sir John Armitt, the chair of the National Infrastructure Commission said only last week that the planning system was not the main obstacle to affordable homes and that there was no point hoping

“somebody’s going to decide that they’re going to build lots of homes, even though there isn’t a market for the homes or they’re not going to make a profit…The last time we built 300,000 homes plus was in the 1960s and 1970s, 50 per cent of those were private sector homes, 50 per cent delivered by local authorities…To get to 300,000 personally, I don’t see how we get there in a meaningful way without some sort of government intervention with local authorities, or with the housing associations, to deliver more affordable homes on a large scale.”



When first-time buyers come to us as Members, they will talk to us not about the fact that stamp duty is going up, but about the fact that they cannot get a mortgage: that the banks and building societies are requiring deposits not of 5% or 10%, but of 15% — increasing deposits, and at increasingly high percentages to get those mortgages. Let us contrast that with the situation for private landlords: a bank is more happy to lend, as they have more equity and more money, so they are a safer bet.

With an employment market that is going to be so difficult in the autumn, and with young people being disproportionately impacted by losing their jobs, there is a real problem. I say this not to score political points, but because I am personally worried that the divisions in our society will undermine our society. If we make it harder for people to own, they will resent those who do so. If young people cannot get on to the property ladder because they cannot save or keep enough to pay their rent and also save for a deposit, they will resent their grandmother or grandfather for their ability to live in their house, and that does not help anybody.

I would like to end by talking about the people who cannot even be part of this debate, who come to my advice surgery, as they probably go to other Members’ advice surgeries: people who are living in one room in a shared house with their children. I do not know whether it is a London or south-east phenomenon, but I wish others could join me on a Friday to talk to people who work as carers, in shops and in the hospitality trade, and who are disproportionately from black and ethnic minority communities, who have their family in one room and share that house with perhaps four or five other families. Not for them the ability to protect themselves from coronavirus by using their own bathroom and having access to their own kitchen; they are never, ever going to have a bathroom and kitchen of their own, in the 21st century.

These are people who strive and work, who get up early in the morning, who come home late at night to earn what none of us would go out to work to earn, and who live in conditions that are truly appalling. These people will never get access to housing because their landlords are not going to evict them. Their landlords are making loads of money from them, so why would they evict them? Nevertheless, if we want these people to believe that there is hope—that there is a better future, that there is a reward for work—we must give them some opportunity to buy their home or rent a decent place at a price they can afford.

We talk about mortgages that are two and a half or three times people’s salaries. I see people who are paying 70% or 80% of their take-home pay to keep their accommodation. Their hopes for their kids and their hopes for their futures are dampened. We can all pretend that this does not matter, that we live in a stable society and that it will be okay, but it will not be okay, because coronavirus has shed so much light on how unfair and unequal our society is, and those of us who have are threatened as much by that as those who do not have, because we cannot sustain a democracy in that environment.

So this stamp duty measure is, in the overall picture, a small issue, but if it goes to those who already own their home or want to buy a bigger and better home at the expense of the young people trying to make out in life, we will all suffer. We need to look at this situation and be broad-minded and ask how we solve this problem forever.

I want to leave Members with a statistic. One in 10 adults in this country owns a second home while four in 10 adults own no home. That is not a sustainable future for our country, for our democracy or for the families in that position.

18:34
Virginia Crosbie Portrait Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con)
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I have to declare that I have first-hand experience; I was helped to buy my first flat in the 1990s when the Chancellor was Nigel Lawson and the Conservatives introduced a stamp duty holiday then. My flat was tiny and it was right on the top floor—there was no lift—but it was my own.

In the wake of the covid-19 lockdown across the UK, many sectors are facing significant challenges, and the UK Government have done and continue to do much to help across the board. My constituency, like many coastal communities in the UK, has been particularly badly hit because it is highly reliant on tourism income. The UK Government have provided a range of support to help people survive the impact of the crisis, through stage 1 of their recovery plan, from furlough payments to resilience funds. Stage 2 of the plan encompasses a number of different packages to support the economy as we emerge from lockdown, including the kick-start scheme to help 16 to 24-year-olds into employment by paying the first six months of their wages and the stamp duty land tax temporary relief that we are debating today.

Coastal communities such as mine, which are highly tourism dependent, face two significant housing-related challenges as we emerge from lockdown. The first is the challenge of a significant downturn in direct income due to the shortened holiday period this year, which will have an impact on the ability of local people to pay mortgages and to purchase property. The second, more hidden issue relates to holiday homeowners. In some coastal areas, the level of second home ownership is high. Many of these owners have been hit by having no holiday rental income, while being expected to pay higher premium council taxes and potentially having reduced income from their primary employment. That brings a risk of a surplus of properties coming on to the local market, resulting in a localised property price crash. That is one issue the Bill will help to address. It will give a much-needed boost to the housing market by significantly reducing the stamp duty on property purchases, and the Chancellor’s decision to offer this temporary relief at a time when it is so needed will make a great contribution to restarting the UK economy.

I wish to end by thanking the Treasury and welcoming the Bill. I urge the Welsh Government to follow the example set by the UK Government and introduce a similar scheme in Wales, to stimulate the housing sector, so that my constituents and those all across Wales can be supported at such a crucial time.

18:38
Sarah Olney Portrait Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD)
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I should declare an interest, in that I moved house earlier this year, about four weeks before lockdown started, when the purchase of a family home in a constituency whose house prices are significantly above average meant that I paid a fair chunk of change in stamp duty. Given that this year, more than any other, we have all had cause to be grateful for and celebrate our public services, I am glad to have made that payment and to have been able to support our NHS in such a way. Having had that experience, I have had a lot of thoughts about stamp duty as a tax, not all of them supportive, as I do not think it is a very fair or efficient tax. As the representative of a constituency with considerably higher than average house prices, it is a tax that affects my constituents far more than most. However, I am standing here today to oppose this cut, because in the current circumstances I have to ask: is this the best use of the £3.8 billion that the Chancellor will lose in revenue as a result?

I have heard from estate agents in my area—again, we have a reasonably healthy housing market in Richmond Park—and they are telling me that, even before the announcement last week, they were beginning to see a healthy return of interest from potential buyers. I am sad to say that that is probably because, as we know, the three drivers of the housing market in normal times are death, divorce and debt. I do not need to explain to anybody here, because they will all have seen it in their constituencies, why those three particular drivers of the housing market have been so prevalent this year and will continue to be so next year.

I am not entirely certain that the housing market is the sector we really need to be supporting with our tax revenue at this time. As I say, even without the stamp duty cut announced last week, we were already starting to see the revival of the housing market and all those associated industries that the Minister mentioned in his speech—the solicitors, the removal firms and all the construction firms such as plumbers, bathroom fitters and associated industries. They were already starting to come back, and there is huge pent-up demand from people like me. I bought a house in February with the intention of doing it up, and I have to tell the House that this has been a very frustrating three months for me: I really want to get a new bathroom very soon, and I plan to do so.

I am not certain that the housing market is the market that really needs supporting at this time. I am not certain that the construction market and the other markets that the Minister referred to are the best uses of this money. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) and support what she said. When we think about the individuals who are most in need of Government support, it is not those who are able to secure mortgage finance. In the mortgage market, people have to have a fair amount of money already in the bank to put down a deposit, but they also have to have a reasonable expectation of future income in order to be able to service a mortgage.

I think we can all agree that unemployment undermines the housing market more than anything else—more than the need to pay stamp duty. We all know that because we saw it last week—even the day after the Chancellor’s statement, we saw some of our major retailers announce job cuts—and we all know that there is more to come. That, far more than anything else, is going to undermine our housing market and with it all the sectors the Minister mentioned.

We know that unemployment is the biggest drain on our economy, and we all know that there have been sectors and individuals that have struggled far more than others during this time. I just want to draw attention again to that group of people—we estimate there to be about 3 million of them—who were left out of all plans for support. As summer turns to autumn, when their mortgage holidays end or when their landlords are no longer barred from evicting them, they face real fears about how are they going to pay their mortgages or rents, as well as about the businesses they set up or the new jobs they accepted at the beginning of this crisis. In my constituency, I have a lot of people who were on contract work. All that has fallen away, and they have had no income now for months and months.

Jacob Young Portrait Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Would the hon. Lady concede that those people she is talking about are exactly why we need to get the housing sector going again? Those self-employed people who work as plumbers and electricians, who may not have been eligible for some of the support the Government offered, are the reason why we need to do this.

Sarah Olney Portrait Sarah Olney
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

No, I would not concede that, and I will tell the hon. Member why: it is because we are talking about sectors that are not going to be improved or helped by a revival of the housing market. A lot of people in my constituency are working in the creative industries, for example.

Siobhain McDonagh Portrait Siobhain McDonagh
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am not sure whether the hon. Lady saw the article in The Sunday Times yesterday identifying not only first-time buyers as people having problems in securing mortgages, but self-employed people, because of banks and building societies being concerned about their future incomes.

Sarah Olney Portrait Sarah Olney
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Lady for making the point better than I could, in response to the hon. Member for Redcar (Jacob Young), because it is precisely that: uncertainty about people’s futures is the biggest barrier to their securing the kind of mortgage finance they will need to purchase a house, stamp duty or no stamp duty. That is the absolutely crucial point, and it is why I am asking the Treasury whether it thinks the £3.8 billion could have been better spent.

To refer back to those self-employed people, some of them could have been helped. Some people have benefited from the furlough scheme and have been entitled to up to £2,500 a month. Some of our self-employed people have missed out on support, but they could have had that £2,500 a month for three months: we could have helped 500,000 of them with the £3.8 billion that we are spending instead on this stamp duty holiday. That is really important because, apart from anything else, we are talking not just about self-employed people, but about company directors and people who have set up recently, and they are the people who will be creating the jobs of the future. They will be the engine of this recovery. They are looking at the new opportunities available in the post-coronavirus world, and they have the energy, enthusiasm and the get-up-and-go to start rebuilding business and our economy in a way that I believe would have happened anyway with our housing market. By not helping those people, we limit the prospects of new business, which is the engine of new jobs, and we destroy livelihoods. That will stimulate the housing market because those people will now have to sell their houses because they cannot pay the mortgages that they secured on them. I do not believe that that is quite what the Minister had in mind.

Above all, the feeling among so many self-employed people and company directors that I have been speaking to is that we have undermined their confidence, and that will ultimately be the biggest impact of this. They thought that that this was a Government who prized entrepreneurship, supported small businesses and wanted companies to thrive, and I am so disappointed, after everything that has been said in this place by so many MPs across all parties. My hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone) set up his all-party group on this issue last week and has 200 MPs representing their constituents who have been excluded. I cannot tell the House how disappointed I am that after all that, the Chancellor of the Exchequer came to the Dispatch Box last week and announced this stamp duty cut instead of proper, real support for the people we are going to be depending on in the weeks and months to come.

However much I personally feel that stamp duty is a bad and wrong tax, I still say that the £3.8 billion could have been better spent at this time, and I am really disappointed that the Government did not take that opportunity.

00:05
Jacob Young Portrait Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney). As has been discussed, housing is one of the sectors that has been worst hit by coronavirus, so I welcome the Bill on the back of the Chancellor’s announcement last week to temporarily cut stamp duty. This measure will go a long way to bringing back confidence in the property market and starting to drive growth in that sector once more. Property transactions were down 50% in May this year compared with last May, and this is the right way to kick-start sales again.

At the heart of this decision are jobs, because buying and selling homes creates jobs and economic activity, whether that is the estate agents, solicitors, mortgage advisers, surveyors, removal companies, electricians, builders, joiners, plumbers or painter- decorators. One house sale can make a huge economic ripple, which is why this intervention is so important. I am proud that the Government have delivered an unprecedented level of support for businesses and self-employed people throughout this pandemic so far, but we must now move on to the next phase of getting back to trading and creating jobs, and we must do so in a way that keeps people safe.

As we progressively get back to business, cutting stamp duty is part of a package of measures that will help our economy to get back on track. Thanks to this measure, 90% of the people buying a main home this year will pay no stamp duty at all. This will give thousands of families across the country the necessary incentive to buy or sell their home. Whether they are moving on to the property ladder or moving up, selling their home or renovating, this activity will create jobs—the jobs that we need to recover from this crisis.

We should also keep in mind that stamp duty is an important source of revenue for the Government, and when so many people are relying on public money for the duration of this crisis, it is important that we find ways of unburdening the public purse. That is why, as well as supporting existing jobs in the housing sector, we are taking this opportunity to build on top of that and deliver even more homes and create more good-quality, sustainable jobs.

Long-awaited reforms of the planning system will make it easier for landlords to convert existing commercial property into housing and further stimulate the market, and our new green homes grant will mean that new home owners can increase the energy efficiency of their homes, creating more jobs for people who work in home improvement.

As a result of the pandemic, some aspects of our economy will change permanently, such as our approach to working from home. More sectors have gone into standstill and require a restart. We are all aware of cases in our own constituencies where tradesmen in the housing sector have not been eligible for support through the self-employment income support scheme or the coronavirus job retention scheme. Getting the housing market restarted is vital to their livelihoods, as I mentioned to the hon. Member for Richmond Park. This is our cause: to protect, support and create jobs.

Cutting stamp duty is not a bung for homeowners, as Opposition Members would say; it is about the hundreds of thousands of jobs that rely on a thriving housing market. Much lies ahead of us, and this could be the most challenging phase of our recovery yet. However, I have every confidence that with a gradual approach and temporary, focused support from the Government where needed, we can not only recover but thrive in a new post-covid economy.

18:50
Tim Farron Portrait Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)
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It is an honour to follow the hon. Member for Redcar (Jacob Young), who made some interesting points about this move. Although, as Members from all parts of the House have said, there are other things we could do with the money—there is an opportunity cost to spending it—there is no doubt that it will make a difference to the economy. The buying and selling of properties has a knock-on effect and creates a multiplier, and that will create some movement. It is worth saying that that does not mean it is the best use that could possibly be made of this money, but given that the Chancellor and the Prime Minister have discovered a veritable rainforest of money trees, this may be a good use for a few of them.

For the good that the measure will do—it is important to concede that—what it will not do is to rise to the challenge of the United Kingdom’s general lack of affordable housing. It has been going on for some time, and this represents a failure to grasp the nettle. I am sure Members will know that Crisis and the National Housing Federation have together come up with a conservative estimate that the UK needs 145,000 new affordable homes per year, 90,000 of which need to be social rented. Shelter takes the view—I think it is nearer to the money—that the number is closer to 300,000. Either way, we need a minimum of 90,000 additional social rented homes a year. The Government will deliver 3,500 this year, but there are just over 3,000 on the social housing waiting list in my constituency alone. That is the scale of the problem, and this measure does not help—it does not hinder, but it does not help.

Mike Wood Portrait Mike Wood
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Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that what probably will help is the £12 billion affordable housing programme announced in the Budget only four months ago?

Tim Farron Portrait Tim Farron
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Potentially—although, to go on a little diversion, we cannot build houses of any kind whatsoever without a workforce. One thing that I wish the Government would take seriously, in looking at their supply chain and the means of reaching their targets, is that we are something like 40% below the workforce required to construct even the Government’s existing programme of development. By the way, the Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which we debated the other week, will take that down by another 9%. The Government can announce whatever big numbers they like, but they cannot press-release their way out of a recession; they have to plan their way out of it. There is a lack of long-term or even medium-term planning, but it is better to spend that money than not, and I concede that it will do more good than the proposal that we are debating.

I represent a constituency where we have, bluntly, London house prices without London incomes. The average household income is about £25,000 a year, and the average house price across the constituency is about a quarter of a million. In the Lake district and the dales, which make up more than half the land mass of my constituency, we are looking at an average property price of more like £400,000. Put bluntly, the average person in my constituency is stuffed when it comes to buying a home, and this measure will not help. We lose one in three of our young people, never to return, for this very reason. Long-lasting, real action is required as well as something like this, which I am sure will give a short-term and necessary boost to economic activity.

I agree with the Town and Country Planning Association and the Nationwide Foundation that we need to redefine what affordability is. We talk about affordability as a percentage of market rent when actually we should be talking about affordability in terms of how it relates to people’s incomes, obviously, because that is what makes something affordable or otherwise. This and previous Governments have used “affordable housing” as a term that is utterly meaningless to the majority of people who are supposedly in the market. Let us take this opportunity to do something radical.

I also agree with the Town and Country Planning Association, and with Shelter, when they say that one of the most useful things that we could do—and since we are in this mood for swift and radical legislation that will make a difference, let us grab the moment—is to reform the Land Compensation Act 1961, which currently fixes the hope value of land at a level based on what would be the most lucrative value of that land rather than pegging it at the actual value of the land. That inflates land prices, inflates house prices, and stagnates the market. If we wanted to reduce the cost of land, reduce the cost of housing and therefore make it more affordable, make sure that every home is zero-carbon, which the Government should also be doing at this time, and make it more likely that land will come forward to be built on in the first place, that is the one thing we would do: it is close to being a silver bullet. In this time of swift legislation and passing whole Bills in a matter of hours, that is what we should use one of these slots for. Radical change is important, and we in this House have the opportunity—and, I think, the mood—to do it.

We should also be reforming viability assessments and preventing developers from changing the goalposts after they have been given planning permission. I want to see developers forced to deliver not just zero-carbon homes but homes that are genuinely affordable, and not then going over the field, digging up a few rocks, and saying, “Oh, I’m sorry, I can’t afford to do the affordables anymore.” This is an opportunity for the Government to make sure that any new building that takes place, and such as I trust will take place, will deliver homes that people can actually afford.

As has already been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney), who made a really good and important contribution, this move will not help any of the people facing financial ruin, such as the one in four in my constituency who work for themselves, many of whom are directors of small limited companies, newly employed people or new starters. They are the entrepreneurs we need to rely on to build back for our country and to build our economy, and they have been excluded. As she said, we had the launch of the all-party group last week with 200 Members there, many of them Conservatives. My message to friends and colleagues on the Conservative Benches is: this is your moment to put your money where your mouth is and to stand up for those 3 million excluded people in this country, and to say that the Chancellor must back them, because they are not in a position to consider whether they are going to move house; they are in a position of wondering whether they can afford to feed their kids. This is the time when the Chancellor must act.

Just as distressing for us in south Lakeland is the bonus that is being given to people who own second homes. I want to be very clear here: I am not talking about holiday lets, which are crucial to the tourism economy in the lakes and the dales and elsewhere, bringing in visitors who spend their money locally. Holiday lets are part of a tourism economy that is worth £3 billion a year and more, and employs 60,000 people in Cumbria—our single biggest employer—so it is vital that we support that industry. I am talking about homes owned by people as a second property that they visit maybe a few times a year—and good luck to them. I want those people to feel welcome: this is not a personal slight on them. But as somebody who lives among these communities, I cannot deny the evidence of my eyes, which is that excessive second home ownership kills communities. When 50% of the homes in Coniston are not lived in all year round, of course that is one of the reasons why the schools in that community do not have the numbers they would otherwise, of course it is a reason why bus services shut, and of course it is a reason why shops, post offices and others struggle. That is why this boon and bonus to second home owners is an insult to people in the lakes and the dales—the local people struggling to get by there—and why this should be an opportunity not to give these people an additional incentive to take homes out of the local market, but to tackle the incentives that currently exist.

Some 18 months ago, the Government concluded a consultation on whether they should close the loophole that allows second home owners effectively to pretend that the home is a business and therefore avoid paying any tax whatsoever. In the 18 months since—I accept that it has been a busy 18 months—naff all has happened. The Welsh Assembly Government closed that loophole and did so effectively. Why will the Government not take the opportunity to do that and help constituencies like mine? That loophole needs to be closed.

In summary, I am deeply concerned about this proposal. It will do some good and I can see the economic arguments for it, so we will not formally oppose it when it comes to any Division, but we must understand what it is and what it is not. It will increase demand, but among those it will help are those lucky enough to have multiple homes. It does not help those who are desperate to put food on the table and pay the rent. The Government are not helping the excluded and this was the chance to do that. The proposal has some economic value. It will help to kick-start the economy in the short term and that is welcome insofar as it goes, but it is a scattergun attempt to build back quicker, not build back better. If we do not build anything new either, it is simply a case of “buy, buy, buy”, not “build, build, build.”

19:00
Miriam Cates Portrait Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con)
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It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), who made a very passionate speech.

The health of our housing market is an indicator of the health of our whole economy. Buying a property or moving house does not just involve the exchange of money and the transfer of deeds; it supports other associated industries, as has been said widely already, and a large number of jobs in many trades such as plumbers, builders and electricians. During the acute phase of covid-19, many sectors of our economy were forced to grind to a halt, including the housing market, where in May 2020 property transactions were down by 50%. Other sectors have received welcome relief on a sectoral basis from the Government’s measures to boost our economy, such as grants for the retail, leisure and hospitality businesses, and the eat out to help out scheme, which was announced last week. The housing market also needs a stimulus to catalyse its restart, so I welcome the temporary relief to stamp duty land tax, which will do just that.

In normal times, when the market is in equilibrium, stamp duty should be paid just like any other tax. Right now, however, as we emerge from a period of sharp decline in housing sales, the market is far from equilibrium and it is right to take most property purchases out of stamp duty to encourage transactions to return to normal levels. A cut to stamp duty is, of course, a response to the covid-19 economic slowdown, but it is also the first of many measures that the Government will introduce to fix our housing crisis. Any action to reduce the cost of moving will be welcome to my constituents in Penistone and Stocksbridge where, as elsewhere in the country, many local people cannot afford to own their own home or to move up the property ladder as their family grows. Parents and grandparents are worried that the next generation will not be able to afford to stay local and will instead have to leave our towns and villages and our wonderful communities.

The measure we are debating today will provide a welcome short-term reduction to the cost of moving, but it will also encourage older people to downsize, releasing larger properties for growing families. The hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) rightly said earlier that there are many properties outside London and the south-east that may not necessarily benefit from the cut, but even though the average house prices are a lot less—in Penistone and Stocksbridge I think the average house sale last September was £172,000— there are always, at the top of the chain, properties that are subject to stamp duty land tax. They are often the properties that are the hardest to shift and take the longest to sell. Any reduction in the price of those properties to get them moving and get them shifted will affect the whole chain right down to the bottom to the first-time buyer.

As well as a short-term measure to restart the housing market, there is strong consensus across the House that to fix our housing market in the longer term we must build more homes. I am pleased, therefore, that the Government intend to bring in reforms of our planning system that will enable more houses to be built more quickly. That is particularly necessary in cities like Sheffield, where the local authority still has no local plan, or even a draft local plan, which means there is no evidence-based understanding of or consensus on where and what types of housing should be built. That puts greenfield sites in danger when brownfield sites are still available.

We need to increase the supply of housing and evidence suggests that we need to build over 300,000 new homes each year, both to keep up with demand and to address the backlog. We are all aware that there has been a sharp increase in the number of young people who are living with their parents—a rise of nearly 50% in 20 years. As has already been said, in many cases that is because not enough affordable homes are available. The Government’s housing reforms and the Prime Minister’s £12 billion affordable homes programme will rightly address that issue and give young people the opportunity to own their own homes, with all the benefits of security, pride and a feeling of rootedness that home ownership brings.

I take a moment to consider another less welcome reason for the increase in demand for housing. Over the past two decades, the number of people living alone in the UK has risen by 20%, and the number of 45 to 64-year-olds living alone has increased by 53% over the same period. One of the principal reasons for the increase is the number of middle-aged men who live on their own, largely as a result of relationship breakdown. When marriages and partnerships end, one household becomes two, property costs can double, children no longer have the benefit of both parents under one roof, and, for those adults left living alone—often fathers—loneliness and its associated effects on wellbeing can follow.

Inevitably, of course, not all marriages and cohabiting relationships will last. When there is irretrievable breakdown, new households must be formed, but if relationship breakdown is one of the key drivers for housing demand, we must address the causes of such breakdowns, not because of the impact on housing but because of the impact on people. Relationship breakdown is costly—emotionally, psychologically and financially—and it has a huge impact on children. As we look to address one of the UK’s greatest challenges—a lack of housing—let us also focus our efforts on addressing another one and consider how Government, local authorities, the voluntary and faith sectors, and local communities can better support couples and families to stay together.

Throughout the crisis, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor’s timely measures have acted as a shock absorber, lessening the impact of the most significant economic event of modern times. The temporary relief on stamp duty will give the housing market a much needed boost and pave the way to deeper, more long-term and more holistic reforms to end our housing crisis.

00:02
Antony Higginbotham Portrait Antony Higginbotham (Burnley) (Con)
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Throughout the coronavirus pandemic, this Government have been committed to protecting people’s livelihoods, whether the help was to workers, the self-employed or businesses large and small. In my constituency, we have all appreciated that support. Today’s debate on changes to stamp duty is about yet another measure that the Government are taking to ensure that as we start to recover, people up and down the country are given the confidence they need to get things back up and running.

The housing market is vital to the UK’s prosperity, and I wholeheartedly welcome the plan to temporarily increase the threshold. For my constituents who want to buy a house, be that in urban Burnley or Padiham, or rural Worsthorne or Cliviger, that means a saving of hundreds of pounds on a semi-detached property, or thousands of pounds on a detached property. That means more money in the pocket of the hard-working families across my constituency who are looking to upsize as their family grows, taking almost every house purchase in Burnley out of the stamp duty bracket completely. If ever there was a time to ensure that people keep more of the money they earn, now is it. We have always been the party of opportunity, aspiration and low taxation. Through this measure, we deliver on all three, protecting jobs in the process.

Over recent years, we have been tackling the issue of housing supply through schemes designed on the Government side of the House, including Help to Buy and through reform of the planning system, but this crisis has brought a new challenge—a challenge of demand. House sales have plummeted rapidly, and it is clear from this Bill that the Government are committed to taking action. It will give homebuyers the confidence to buy again.

The challenge of supply remains. The laws of economics say that that will remain the case unless action is taken. Only by getting buyers buying again will we get our builders building again, our roofers roofing again, our electricians electrifying again and our joiners joining again. Getting people back to work. is what “jobs, jobs, jobs” means—getting people back to work by stimulating the economy. For that reason, I will support this tax cut and the Bill.

19:09
Saqib Bhatti Portrait Saqib Bhatti (Meriden) (Con)
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I am speaking in favour of this relief of stamp duty because, as we all know, housing is a huge element of our economy. Making it easier to buy and sell will lend our economy a much needed boost across the board. The housing market, like the rest of the economy, has endured a huge shock, with the first fall in house prices in eight years and the number of transactions falling by 50%. We all knew that was going to be the case, but the case for intervention was also clear.

Real estate in the UK is the cornerstone of our economy. Housing stock is worth more than £7 trillion, and the real estate sector is responsible for tens of thousands of jobs. For many homeowners, confidence and security in the worth of their homes allow them to feel secure in how they live their lives. Housing is not just bricks and mortar, but the stable anchor that creates the foundation for our lives. Stimulating the housing market will boost confidence throughout our economy and create jobs.

I welcome the continued commitment to remediate brownfield sites, which will mean that more land becomes available, increasing supply while alleviating pressure on our green belt. This cut will protect, support and create jobs, from estate agents and surveyors to builders and manufacturers. Along with the green homes grant, the Government are providing the housing sector and homeowners with some welcome assistance and support, as we make our way to recovery as a nation. It will mean less money paid in tax and more money in the pockets of those who may want to spend it in other parts of the economy. More homeowners, fewer taxes, more security—that is a fundamentally Conservative solution to one of the biggest crises in a generation.

Economists like to make predictions, and normally I am cautious of such forecasts, mostly because ultimately our economy is made up of people. It is not just numbers and theory, but individuals who behave in ways that spreadsheets and graphs cannot always predict, and I say that as someone who spent most of their professional life as a chartered accountant. However, one projection that seemed a certainty was that our economy would suffer some potentially devastating consequences following the shock of covid-19. Fortunately, in our Chancellor we have someone who has a calm head and a steady hand at the helm, ready to weather the storm.

For me, this cut is not just about stimulating demand, nor is it just about recognising the importance of housing as an economic asset. It is also about recognising that allowing people to own a house is to allow them to own a stake in society. Cutting stamp duty will have not only huge economic benefits, but huge societal benefits. We cannot just talk about buyers and sellers as if they are numbers on a chart. They are newly weds moving to a new home to begin a new life, and children spending Christmas in a new house, perhaps having their own bedroom for the first time. They are retired grandparents, downsizing so that a new family can move in and make new memories.

I encourage my right hon. Friend the Chancellor to review the positive impacts of the stamp duty holiday on the economy and to consider the benefits of maintaining the cut for longer. When we are back in smooth waters, perhaps he will look at some of the long-term reforms that may be available for the tax.

We say that a man or a woman’s house is their castle, and that is just as true now as it has ever been. The right to own a property is the cornerstone of individual liberty. I do not mean mansions or second homes; I mean, as William Pitt once said:

“It may be frail—its roof may shake—the wind may blow through it—the storm may enter—the rain may enter—but the King of England cannot enter!”

To own one’s home is more than a financial decision; it is safety, security and independence, and I commend the Chancellor for his role in allowing more people to achieve all three of those things.

19:13
Mike Wood Portrait Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con)
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We have faced a huge human health crisis, and we are now working to prevent that horrific health crisis being accompanied by a similar economic crisis. The Government have delivered an extensive package of support measures for workers and for companies through the coronavirus job retention scheme. They have delivered support for the self-employed through grants, loans and a wide range of measures to help protect jobs and ensure that despite the enormous impact of this outbreak, businesses are able to see a way through it and are able to continue to employ people, and the self-employed or those in small businesses can see a way to get through the outbreak to rebuild in the better times ahead.

Sadly, of course, many people have already lost their jobs and, even more sadly, many more are likely to lose their jobs over the coming months, as businesses take time to adjust—to adapt their businesses to order books which, in many cases, are unlikely to return to pre-crisis levels for some time. We need to do what we can to minimise those job losses and to help as many people as possible to return to work and to stay in work, because we know, as we have seen from previous recessions, that jobs can be lost very quickly during economic downturns. It can take many, many more years to replace those jobs and to bring people back into work. With a shock as sharp and as deep as the one that we have seen over the past few months from this pandemic, measures such as this and the many others that the Chancellor has announced over the past four months are not only appropriate, but unprecedented and certainly necessary.

If we are to prevent enormous numbers of people from losing their jobs, enormous numbers of businesses from closing for good, and enormous numbers of families from being deprived of the security and prosperity of paid employment, we need the economy to recover, which means that we need consumers to start spending. We need consumers to have the confidence to return to something approaching economic normality. If people do not have confidence in the economy, they do not part with their cash. When that happens, there is a risk of a vicious circle of economic decline, with inevitable large job losses as a consequence. It is crucial that we break that cycle and promote spending, which is why I support this legislation today.

This measure is designed to bring forward spending. Certainly, the largest piece of spending that almost anybody makes is investment in a home. We need to make sure that consumers have the confidence to make those decisions over the next few months as we rebuild our economy rather than put them off for a year or more, because, naturally, caution, for many of the reasons that the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney) mentioned, may make people concerned about such large spending as we come out of this health crisis. Our economy needs this economic activity to recover. It needs people to be spending. It needs a successful and vibrant housing market, because, as many hon. Members have said, the housing market is not purely about those businesses and those industries that are directly associated with it—the estate agents and the removal firms—but something that goes far beyond that. It goes through construction, to the decorators, the small businesses, the self-employed carpet fitters and the gardeners. In many cases, much of their work centres around people who are moving into new homes and wanting to make them to their taste.

As chair of the all-party group for furniture and furnishings I know how much of furniture manufacturing and retail in this country depends on a successful and thriving housing market. By stimulating that market—by bringing forward to the next six or nine months the decision to buy a house that could be put off for a year or more—we are protecting those jobs by giving confidence to those companies, to those employers, and to those small businesses that there will be a housing market and that there will be people wanting to redecorate, to refit their bathrooms, to redo the garden and to buy new furniture. This measure will give them the confidence to invest in their staff and to keep their workforce as close to normal levels as much as possible. That seems to me to be a good investment. When the question is asked as to whether this is the right way for the Chancellor to spend resources, I invite right hon. and hon. Members to consider what the alternative is. I do not see the evidence locally that the housing market is instantly bouncing back without further intervention and support. I am not seeing a huge amount of confidence; quite the reverse. As the hon. Member for Richmond Park said, people are nervous about the plans that they had put in place either to buy their first home or to move up the housing ladder. In many cases they are saying, “Perhaps now is not the right time.” If the measures in the Bill can help to bring forward those decisions and to make sure that that spending happens as soon as possible, that will protect the jobs and the prosperity that our constituents rely on. That is why I will support the Bill this evening.

19:20
Greg Smith Portrait Greg Smith (Buckingham) (Con)
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It is always a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley South (Mike Wood). I fully agree with his comments.

This House has in recent months been required very necessarily to pass legislation to restrict our freedoms in order to defeat the virus, so it is an absolute pleasure to speak in support of an emergency measure that expands freedom. There is no more important asset to any individual or family in this country than the roof over their heads. The ability, under the provisions of the Bill, to purchase a home worth up to £500,000 without the burden of any stamp duty at all will not only support our economic bounce-back but, more importantly, bring the dream of home ownership a step closer for thousands of first-time buyers, give those who may be downsizing the confidence that they will not unnecessarily lose thousands of their precious savings, and enable growing families to move up the ladder.

This morning, I spoke to estate agents in my constituency —including Brian Russell of Russell & Butler in the town of Buckingham—and the news of the temporary stamp duty cut has been warmly received, with massive interest from buyers and sellers over the past few days. With 75% of the properties currently on that particular estate agent’s books being under £500,000, it goes without saying just how significant this tax cut is locally in Buckinghamshire.

Last Friday, I was pleased to visit Barratt Homes and David Wilson Homes at their development at Kingsbrook near Broughton in my constituency to see the measures that they have put into place to ensure that house building continues at pace in a covid-secure way. Their sales team reported that they are seeing people coming back through the doors again, enthused by the stamp duty holiday.

House of Commons Library data shows that across my constituency the median value of house prices last September was £395,000, albeit with some significant variance in different parts of the constituency, with homes around Worminghall, Long Crendon and Cuddington having the highest median value of £575,000 and the median in Buckingham north at £287,500. That says to me that no matter where people want to live and move across the 335 square miles of the beautiful Buckingham constituency, the Bill is worth many thousands of pounds, if not tens of thousands of pounds, to potential buyers. As many Members have said, if people are buying homes and keeping that market buoyant, that can only be good news for the economy as a whole—for the three quarters of a million jobs supported by the house building sector alone, not to mention our estate agents, removal firms, decorators, plumbers, kitchen fitters, landscapers and the wide array of retailers and suppliers that benefit most from people moving home, from furniture makers such as Ercol and Hypnos beds in Princes Risborough in the south of my constituency, to interior companies such as Secret Messages Interiors in Buckingham or Mood Home and Lifestyle in Winslow, which I visited recently. Even the lawyers—even the lawyers, Madam Deputy Speaker—benefit.

The economic chain set off by house building cannot be stated often enough. However, stamp duty changes alone may not complete the picture. The estate agents I have spoken to over the past few days have advised me that there are other factors hampering the full recovery of the housing market, particularly for first-time buyers, the most significant of those being a banking sector that is making it harder to borrow. While mortgage lending clearly falls outside the scope of the Bill, in order to achieve the aim of the Bill, it is vital that the banking sector and lenders are listening and that they get behind what the Government are trying to do—a point that my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) made in his intervention.

There are no 95% loan-to-value mortgages available for first-time buyers today. Only three lenders even offer 90% loan-to-value mortgages, so the majority of first-time buyers face the daunting prospect of raising at least a 15% deposit. That is £75,000 for a £500,000 four-bedroom home in Steeple Claydon or £52,500 on a £350,000 three-bedroom cottage in Tingewick. The stamp duty reduction on those two examples for first-time buyers is a massive boost, saving £10,000 in the case of the £500,000 home and £2,500 in the case of the £350,000 home. It undoubtedly closes the gap, but the wider point is that we are still talking about enormous sums of money—years and years of savings and sacrifice. To boost the market further, the banks must start to be more realistic about permitting 90% and 95% loan-to-value mortgages once more, to truly open up the market.

Most property transactions currently take an average of 16 weeks, which is much longer than it needs to be. We are only 38 weeks from the end of this temporary stamp duty cut, so time is of the essence to make the most of it. If any accompanying deregulation to speed up transactions can be brought forward, that will only help many more thousands of aspiring homeowners and movers.

In conclusion, this Bill is enormously welcome. It is bold in its aim of boosting our housing market and supporting people to achieve home ownership. I will be voting for it with great enthusiasm, but at the same time, I encourage my right hon. Friends on the Treasury Bench to seriously consider other measures that we could bring forward to make it even stronger. Who knows? Perhaps this tax-cutting pilot, once proved so successful, could become a more permanent feature of the housing market.

19:28
Laura Farris Portrait Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con)
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It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Greg Smith). The Chancellor said last week that Governments rarely get to choose the moments that define them. Apart from making the decision as to whether or not to lead the country into armed conflict, I can think of few more daunting prospects than preparing a country that is on the brink of an economic recession of significant scale and depth right in the middle of a global pandemic.

I will confine my comments to the housing market and the time-limited decision on stamp duty. I hope Members will forgive me if I contextualise this as part of what the Chancellor said about jobs in his statement last week and his attempts to stave off long-term unemployment, which, if we are honest, every Government of every stripe in the post-war period have struggled with when it takes root.

When going through a moment of history, it can be difficult to be clear-eyed about what is happening, but we know that covid-19 discriminates directly on the basis of age. From a health perspective it has the most serious consequences for the old, and from an economic perspective it has the most serious consequences for the young, in terms of both their labour market opportunities and their potentially facing a higher tax burden in the longer term.

One of the reasons I welcome this stamp duty cut is what it says to young people’s hopes of home ownership. It reaches first-time buyers and young buyers. In my constituency, the average house price is £350,000. That is an immediate tax saving of £4,500. I appreciate that a first-time buyer may be buying house worth less than that, but they were very unlikely to fall below the £125,000 previously, so it is a direct saving of several thousand pounds to them.

When I researched what a first-time buyer in my constituency looks like, I got two figures—32 and 33—but it struck me that it does not much matter, because both those ages are positioned squarely in the middle of the millennial demographic: people born between 1981 and 1996 and aged between 24 and 39, so they came of age somewhere between the beginning of the financial crisis and now, over a decade later, during a global health pandemic and, potentially, a deep recession. It is critical that there is a renewed imperative to focus on people in that demographic, who I think have, with some justification, felt a little ignored in the last 15 years, so I welcome a policy that gives them a direct financial boost.

The second consideration, which many Members have raised, is the importance of returning confidence in the housing market to jobs more generally. Construction is a £39 billion-a-year sector. It employs nearly 5% of my constituents, but that figure increases to over 8% if we take into account the secondary industries—the tradesmen we have talked about. In 2019, well over 1,000 new householder developments were approved in west Berkshire. That number has completely fallen off a cliff during the period of stagnation that we have seen in the last three months, yet we face the same pressure on housing supply. The same people want to move up and out—those having babies, settling down or living with their parents. I welcome an initiative that will get those jobs moving.

My final point I hope answers the concern expressed by the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney) about the excluded—the 3 million. If she will forgive me, I think it is important that we do not just treat them as an amorphous lump of people. When I think about some of the people in my constituency who contacted me, they were small business directors doing things such as garden design; peripatetic workers doing things such as removals, whose income is hard to trace, whose employment status is not completely clear and who have fallen through the cracks; and even, dare I say it, Instagram influencers specialising in renovation and interiors.

It is easy to say, “Well, they’re not very well-known careers” or “They’re not someone we would treat with a lot of respect,” but we should treat those people with respect. They are young, they are dynamic and they are providing a service at every Budget, and they have not always qualified for Government support. You do not need to move house to redo your garden or your interior, but moving is a huge catalyst for that kind of work, and those people directly benefit from this decision on stamp duty.

To conclude, I welcome the time-limited stamp duty break that the Bill offers, and particularly its focus on millennials, on jobs and on freelancers.

19:33
James Sunderland Portrait James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)
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It is always a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Laura Farris), who is a fellow Berkshire Member.

The Chancellor’s summer statement was just what the country needed to kick-start the economy out of its doldrums. With coronavirus impacting a falling housing market, his decision to temporarily cut stamp duty until March 2021 was the right thing to do, and I welcome the Bill. However, far from just allowing purchasers to save their cash, this measure offers a real incentive to get our housing market going again and for people to spend what they save. It also allows our builders to get building—not just in the already congested south-east but to level up with real investment right across the UK.

One of the indicators of a recession is falling confidence in the property sector, with homeowners becoming more entrenched. The path ahead will not be easy, so the priority is to launch a pre-emptive strike that incentivises everyone to grab the opportunities that lie ahead. The imperative, therefore, is to support people, jobs and the economy by catalysing the housing market and boosting business confidence by driving growth. Raising the threshold at which stamp duty applies, from £125,000 to £500,000, means that more than 90% of those getting on to or moving up the property ladder will pay no stamp duty at all. In addition to the measure being a serious tax break for the majority, those who can most afford it will still be required to pay their share of duty above £500,000, and it is right that a progressive system of taxation remains in force.

What does this really mean for those who stand to gain most benefits? Take Bracknell as the classic example of a modern, vibrant and rewarding place to live. Nestled between the M4 and the M3 in east Berkshire, Bracknell is characterised by near full employment, one of the lowest rates of council tax in the country, a strong job market, high-tech research and development facilities, and an abundance of international companies. Although it has taken a hit during the pandemic, I remain confident that Bracknell will bounce back and that its previous optimism for the post-Brexit economy will return.

I urge the decent, hard-working and pragmatic people whom I proudly represent to look ahead with confidence. Although the average house price in Bracknell is an eye-watering £325,000, the temporary cut in stamp duty will result in a direct saving of more than £5,000 for all those who buy at that level. Of course, if someone is starting on the housing ladder or looking to move up it, they will not have to pay anything on a property worth under £500,000. That is a massive incentive for anyone who aspires to save for a deposit, start a family, build an extension, get a better job or simply move to a bigger house, and it will mean more money in their pocket. Therefore, as well as boosting the economy at a time when it is most needed, the Government will continue to allow people to keep most of what they earn, through fair and progressive taxation that incentivises entrepreneurship, hard graft and enterprise. Indeed, for those in any doubt, the Conservative party remains the party of working families, and this is just another example of what can be done when the country most needs it.

Of course, no cut in stamp duty can be an indefinite blank cheque, as it is still necessary to raise the necessary revenue to pay for our public services. However, further concessions might be possible. I therefore urge the Minister to consider some further tweaks. First, several of my constituents have written to me urging for the cut in stamp duty to be backdated to the beginning of the pandemic. I do not know whether that is precedented, fair or possible for a new policy, but it is one to be considered.

Secondly, stamp duty is a drag on the housing market, and any continued relief beyond March 2021 is to be welcomed. I therefore urge the Minister to consider tax measures that encourage rather than hinder social mobility. Increasing the threshold further or spreading payments out over a longer period may be beneficial.

Lastly, further refinement could be considered for those who are resident in the UK as UK citizens, as opposed to overseas investors or those purchasing second homes. While we must encourage foreign investment and entrepreneurship right across our post-Brexit nation, taxpayers who can afford to pay more should do so, if we are serious about incentivising those just starting up the ladder. Aspiration through hard work and enterprise must be rewarded.

To conclude, I welcome the Bill and salute the Chancellor for his unprecedented, generous and unparalleled support for our economy. Cutting stamp duty in the short term is absolutely the right thing to do, but I also urge him to conduct a wider review so that this tax goes further in what we ask it to do.

19:39
Ben Spencer Portrait Dr Ben Spencer (Runnymede and Weybridge) (Con)
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It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell (James Sunderland).

I am delighted that the Government are bringing forward changes to cut stamp duty, to scrap it entirely on homes under £500,000 and to raise the threshold at which it applies. I have spoken to estate agents in Runnymede and Weybridge and they are concerned for the next 12 months. A cut in stamp duty will help people to buy their own home and support the housing sector.

But any intervention in the housing market is difficult. The housing market is already highly distorted and the broader measures we need to fix it are not easy, given the relatively inelastic supply of housing and the fact that the market is in fact several markets, formed of those who buy to live in their own home, those who buy as an investment and those who buy to let or as a business. And of course people often want to buy for several of those reasons and then need to change.

Chewing over how to fix the housing market more broadly is beyond the scope of this debate, but for any market to function effectively it must be free from substantial barriers to transactions. Given the costs involved in buying a house, any stamp duty that is calculated as a percentage of sale price will lead to large duties owed and transactional disincentives. The measures we are debating today will increase the turnover of house sales and improve mobility, supporting people who want to downsize and freeing up houses for young families, enabling more people to own their own home. This will support all the industries linked to housing and create and support jobs. I am perplexed to hear Opposition Members say that they believe that generating economic activity will not support and create jobs. I would love to hear the conversations they have with the lawyers and conveyancers when they say that more houses being bought and sold will not lead to more work and will not lead to more people wanting to refurbish their bathroom or whatever.

This Government have put in place a world-leading package of measures in response to coronavirus and while I welcome these bold changes I ask Ministers whether we can be just a little more bold, and not just cut stamp duty, but scrap it entirely. Stamp duty puts the brakes on the turnover of house ownership. It prevents mobility and, perversely, locks capital into housing as a result, with the arbitrary thresholds for different rates providing further market distortions. How can we aspire to home ownership while at the same time taxing those merely for buying? Taxes are often used to disincentivise behaviour—the tax on tobacco and the introduction of a sugar tax, for example—but the housing market is the only example I can think of where a tax is applied to behaviour, such as buying a house, that the Government want to support people to do. Indeed they have put in other incentives to enable people to buy a house, such as Help to Buy and shared ownership. Across Runnymede and Weybridge people have shown me that, while covid has posed challenges, it has also demonstrated opportunities for change and improvement. So I thank the Chancellor for these changes, but ask him to go even further and stamp out stamp duty entirely for home ownership.

19:42
Kevin Hollinrake Portrait Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
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It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Dr Spencer), and I will address one or two of his points, but first I must draw the House’s attention again to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, and also apologise to the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Dan Carden), as I inadvertently misled the House earlier when I said that Labour did not cut stamp duty in 2008; actually, they did, from a £125,000 threshold to a £175,000 threshold, but they crashed the housing market so badly that it made no difference whatsoever, which is why I cannot remember it. Interestingly, however, at the time, despite what he said in his speech, they made no dispensation in terms of buy-to-let investors—stamp duty was just cut across the board, regardless of what the property was for, so there was not some carve-out only for homeowners. According to the research, one thing that cut did do was boost activity, by 20%. Activity was at a very low level, as transactions were normally at 100,000 a month but they were down to 40,000 a month, so it was a pretty painful time, but the cut boosted activity, from that low level, by about 20%. Labour then withdrew the measure pretty early and activity fell away again, which is one of the reasons why we had such an extended recession from 2008 onwards.

I think certain Members have missed the point of the measure we are debating today. It is not just about helping some people get on to the housing ladder; it is also about activity. We all know that the housing market is a major driver of activity right across the economy. That is why many hon. Members have asked why on earth we are taxing something that is a major driver of activity across the economy. This is a transaction tax, and is therefore bound to slow the market down even in good times, let alone times such as this when we are trying to stimulate the economy.

This is not just about driving activity. Residential stamp duty brings in important revenue—about £8.3 billion every year. When my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge talked about stamping out stamp duty entirely, I saw the sweat on the Minister’s brows as he was thinking, “Where are we going to find that £8 billion?”

Jesse Norman Portrait The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman)
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My hon. Friend will be pleased to know that actually I remained as implacably calm as I always am. As a test of all colleagues who want to scrap taxes, I invite them to do exactly what he is doing and supply the missing revenue with some other suggestion. I did not notice that in the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Dr Spencer), but I am still waiting; I look forward to hearing that before we finish.

Kevin Hollinrake Portrait Kevin Hollinrake
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The Minister is absolutely right, and I will come to that.

The Conservative Government have improved the system of stamp duty significantly. It used to be a ridiculous slab tax that created distortions all the way through the market, but we made it into a slice tax—perhaps a slam tax—that gets very expensive at the higher levels and deters activity at the top end.

On the Minister’s point about where on earth we are going to get the money from, the reality is that this nation will come under huge tax pressure over the next few decades, not just the next few years. According to the Office for Budget Responsibility, because of the demands of healthcare and social care, if we do not change the tax system and claim more tax, our national debt will grow to three times our GDP—it is one times our GDP today—so we cannot simply scrap taxes without introducing alternative measures.

I am going to propose a measure. I would like the threshold remain at £500,000, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Craig Mackinlay) proposed. We have to find that £8.3 billion annually, so we have to look at annual property taxes. The council tax system, under which people pay pretty much the same whether they live in a castle or a cottage, cannot be right. We need to revisit it and have a proper discussion about it. It is controversial. Some people think it is right that people who own bigger houses should pay more, and other people think it is wrong. We should certainly have a conversation about that.

The think-tank Onward recently proposed that there should be a council tax revaluation, and even the Prime Minister suggested back in 2014 that we should look at it. The thing about it is that it is simple. We can scrap stamp duty completely up to £500,000, and keep it at that level. We can also adjust the bands to make it cheaper for people in lower-value homes, to help people on lower incomes, and make it more expensive for people in higher-value homes.

It is simple, but it is not easy. Simple and easy are two completely different things. As Ronald Reagan said, there are simple solutions, but there are no easy solutions. If we are to tackle some of the unfairnesses in society, we must not duck the tough issues; we must look at the things that make the system unfair in the first place. This is an excellent measure, and I will support it tonight if we enter the Lobbies.

19:48
Anthony Browne Portrait Anthony Browne (South Cambridgeshire) (Con)
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I refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. I am on the advisory council for the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which I am about to quote, and back in 2012 I co-founded the HomeOwners Alliance, Britain’s only consumer group for homeowners, because I was alarmed by the prospects of the home ownership gap—the 5 million aspiring homeowners who cannot own their own home. We have done a lot of work promoting policies to help people get on to the housing ladder.

I was concerned about the home ownership gap because, as Opposition Members said, home ownership levels have declined. What they did not say was that home ownership levels went up almost every year for the past 100 years and stopped in the year 2000—three years after the new Labour Government came in. They then started declining for a decade or so. They are now going back up again. I commend the Government’s policies for increasing home ownership levels.

Various people on both sides of the House have mentioned the deposit barrier. It is a huge barrier for first-time buyers who are trying to save up a deposit. The reason banks have increased the deposit requirement and got rid of 95% loans is that house prices are falling, as the latest data shows. Therefore, if people take out a high-value mortgage, they end up in negative equity. That is why banks are legally required to do only affordable lending. The best way to help homeowners get high loan-to-value mortgages is to have a confidently stable or rising housing market, where there is no risk of negative equity. This measure will do that.

In my time at the HomeOwners Alliance over the past decade, I have done a lot of policy work on stamp duty and written loads of reports on it, including one back in 2012 or 2013 that argued for a differential stamp duty system for second home owners and property investors. There is absolutely no reason why they should benefit from the low stamp duty rates for first-time buyers and so on. I lobbied the Treasury, No. 10 and the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, and I was delighted when they finally introduced it as the stamp duty premium for additional homes. I would not have introduced it in quite the way they did, but the policy has made a big difference.

Two months ago, I called on the Government to introduce a stamp duty holiday to kick-start the housing market, so naturally I am delighted that the Government have done it.

Jesse Norman Portrait Jesse Norman
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It was only you saying it.

Anthony Browne Portrait Anthony Browne
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Not at all; I am sure lots of people called for it. I am just showing that I am consistent in my views.

Stamp duty—SDLT—is one of the most unpopular taxes, and not just with homeowners and the public, but with economists. The Institute for Fiscal Studies—a very wise organisation—has called for stamp duty to be abolished outright, because it is one of the most economically inefficient taxes. It is always worth listening to the IFS. I serve on the Treasury Committee, and we took evidence last week from Nick Macpherson, the former permanent secretary at the Treasury. He said he really dislikes stamp duty because it is a transaction tax that reduces transactions, and it has a very bad impact on labour mobility and bungs up the whole labour market. He would certainly not be sad if it went.

We know that there is huge pent-up demand in the housing market. That is not just about Brexit uncertainty and all the missing transactions from the coronavirus crisis; there was pent-up demand beforehand, partly because stamp duty rates have been so high. Before the financial crisis, there were on average about 1.7 million transactions a year. In recent years, there have been about 1.2 million a year. We are about 30% below the pre-financial crisis average. A large part of that is because of stamp duty, although there are other reasons.

The housing market is very sensitive to changes in stamp duty. That is why Opposition Members said earlier, “Don’t speculate about stamp duty changes. Just get ahead and do it.” That is what the Government have done. That is why a cut in stamp duty is so effective in rapidly driving up activity in the market and releasing the animal spirit—the huge backlog of people who want to move are released to get on with it. As several of my hon. Friend have mentioned, we have already seen the number of transactions shoot up in the past few days, which is very much to be welcomed.

Several Members on both sides of the House have worried about the £3.8 billion in forgone revenue. I have a solution to that, which I will come to in a minute. However, I do not think the figure will be anywhere near £3.8 billion. That is just the forgone revenue from stamp duty that has been calculated by the Treasury. That is slightly unlikely because the whole stamp duty take last year was £4.5 billion just for primary residential homes, if we get rid of the additional premium.

We have heard about all the additional economic activity that goes along with housing transactions—the builders, the furniture makers, the removal companies, the lawyers and so on. All that is taxed at 20% VAT. On average, only about half the tax paid in a single housing transaction goes on stamp duty; the other half goes on all the associated economic activity through VAT to the Government. If we scrapped stamp duty outright but the number of transactions doubled, the revenue to the Government would be the same. It just comes not as stamp duty but as VAT.

However, that is not the proposal I was going to make to help my Treasury friends with the £3.8 billion. There is another £3.8 billion: the latest available figures show that the amount of money the Treasury made from the additional premium for second homes was also £3.8 billion, as it happens. That is made on a rate of 3% above the existing stamp duty. If we increased that 3% to 6%, there may be a slight decline in transactions, but basically we would raise another £3.8 billion. That is what I proposed a couple of months ago—that we should increase the rate for second home owners and property investors, and use that to cut stamp duty for people buying a home for what houses are for, which is to have a place to live in.

So I very much welcome this policy. I urge the Government to look at increasing the rate for second home owners, not now, when we are in the middle of the financial crisis, but when we get back a bit to normality. Let us make this a flat rate. There is no social or economic reason why people buying second homes or homes for investment should get discounted rates on lower-valued properties. This should be a flat rate, like VAT, where it is the same whatever the value of the transaction. Lastly, we should give strong consideration for this temporary cut in stamp duty to be made permanent.

19:55
Robbie Moore Portrait Robbie Moore (Keighley) (Con)
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It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Anthony Browne), who speaks with great passion and knowledge on this subject.

Coronavirus has had a devastating impact on the housing market, with property transactions falling by up to 50% in May and housing prices falling for the first time in eight years. One of the most important areas for job creation is the whole housing sector, so we need mechanisms with which to stimulate, loosen the barriers, open the market and instil confidence in people to buy, sell and renovate. The Chancellor’s announcement last week introducing a temporary SDLT cut until 31 March next year by increasing the nil rate threshold to £500,000 plays a key role in doing that. It is estimated that this measure will mean that approximately 90% of people buying their main home this year will pay no SDLT, which is great news. I believe the conversation on SDLT should go even further, and I would welcome exploring its removal for buyers altogether, with perhaps the consideration for such a tax to be transferred to the seller. Alternatively, as was suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake), who is no longer in his place, we could look at an ongoing annual property tax review.

Through last week’s announcements, we have seen, yet again, that the Chancellor is on the side of business and jobs. This temporary SDLT cut is yet another tangible, significant weapon in our Government’s armoury to reignite the economy through our overall plan to create jobs. House builders alone support nearly 750,000 jobs, with millions more people relying on the availability of the housing sector and housing market to find work.

One of the first visits I undertook as the proud new Member for Keighley was to Keighley College, where I was lucky enough to meet one of its level 1 students who was undertaking a construction course. I witnessed him building a wall in one of the college’s classrooms for the first time, where he started to learn the skills needed for the building trade and the ropes required to get on. With its principal, Steve Kelly, and his awesome team, who are full of enthusiasm and want the very best for their students in Keighley, I went on to see students undertaking fabrication and welding, electrical, plumbing, gas safety and engineering courses, all with students who were determined to progress, upskill and get a job.

The Chancellor’s announcements last week on SDLT, along with many other packages, are most welcome, as it is vital that we use every mechanism to kick-start the whole housing market and get its wheels in motion, so that, in turn, the construction industry, which attracts a huge number of employees, can start moving again, and so that keen and enthusiastic students such as those at Keighley College can learn a trade, with the comfort of knowing that they will be greeted with a job at the other side.

This is such an important debate, as it actively aims to create, secure and protect jobs. Many Conservatives have contributed to the debate, but only two Labour Back Benchers have done so. In summary, this Bill demonstrates that this Conservative Government are on the side of those hard-working families who want to get on the housing ladder and progress. For those first-time buyers, it loosens the market, while ensuring that those hard-working families have more money in their pocket.

19:59
Rob Roberts Portrait Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Con)
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It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Robbie Moore).

As we continue to move forward out of lockdown, it is important that we support and revitalise the housing market, helping those getting on or moving up the property ladder, as well as protecting jobs within the sector and the supply chain. I support this Bill to cut stamp duty temporarily for many current and future homebuyers. This will hugely benefit those looking to access the housing market as nearly 90% of people, as we have heard, will pay no stamp duty at all as a result of this change.

Yet in my Delyn constituency, we have a sense of unfairness. Just eight miles across the border into Wales, we will not be able to benefit from the changes in this Bill simply due to our location. In Wales, land transaction tax, the Welsh equivalent of stamp duty, penalises first-time buyers already. It incentivises young people to move out of Delyn and similar constituencies down the England-Wales border to places that are more accessible and more affordable, taking their economic activity with them to the detriment of our Welsh towns and communities.

James Davies Portrait Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con)
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Will my hon. Friend give way?

Rob Roberts Portrait Rob Roberts
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I will certainly give way to my constituency neighbour.

James Davies Portrait Dr Davies
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Does my hon. Friend agree that the housing market in Wales is being impacted not only by the lack of a stamp duty holiday in Wales, but by the continuing ban on the viewing of occupied properties?

Rob Roberts Portrait Rob Roberts
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My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. The hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Dan Carden) mentioned that the Chancellor had a cunning plan. Well, Labour’s very own Baldrick must be running things in Wales, where live property viewings can take place only after the property has been unoccupied for 72 hours, though quite how that works in getting properties moving is beyond me.

Buyers are already being encouraged to purchase property in England rather than in Wales, and I would urge the Welsh Government to follow the lead of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor in supporting the housing market and matching the stamp duty measures announced in this place. This will not only boost the local economy and housing market, but make it easier and more affordable for first-time buyers in Wales. As always, if this policy is adopted by our friends in Cardiff Bay, it will probably be two weeks later, it will probably be called something slightly different. Instead of changing the stamp duty threshold to £500,000, it will be labelled “amending the land transaction tax lower limit to half a million pounds”—anything to give the shockingly poor Labour Administration in Cardiff the ability to say that it is their policy and they can determine the wording.

I would say to the First Minister that if he does his regular job of prevaricating on this measure, a massive volume of property transactions will be lost and we will drift even further into more of the economic difficulty that Labour has presided over in Wales for two decades. He should stop sitting on his hands, and do something for the people of Wales to ensure that we can move forward with as minimal a loss of economic activity as possible. I look forward to the Senedd elections in May next year, when the people of Wales can rightly get rid of this appalling Labour Government.

Moving on, data from HomeOwners Alliance suggest that the average time it takes to sell a property, from listing to completion, is about six months. I appeal to my right hon. Friend the Minister to consider extending this scheme from nine months to 12 to 15 months, because restricting it to nine months runs the risk of a measure designed to be a stimulus primarily just providing a windfall to people who are already engaged in the market, rather than attracting more properties into it. An extended stamp duty holiday past next March will also aid the long-term recovery of the housing market, preventing a boom scenario that could slow down when the scheme finishes. As the Government are rightly serious about supporting both buyers and jobs within the whole housing industry, increasing the term to 12 to 15 months will allow construction companies and house builders to make informed and strategic decisions about how to move forward beyond that period, and will in turn assist the long-term economic recovery of the market.

That being said, I welcome the changes the Bill introduces. I believe that temporarily scrapping stamp duty on all homes under £500,000 is the right thing to do to boost confidence and encourage growth in the housing market, and I again urge the Welsh Government to take forward similar plans as soon as possible.

20:04
Felicity Buchan Portrait Felicity Buchan (Kensington) (Con)
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I promise I will be very brief. I warmly welcome the temporary cut to stamp duty. This will benefit approximately 90% of new homebuyers in the country. However, alongside some of my Conservative colleagues, I urge my right hon. Friend the Minister to be bolder and broader, and to look at a fundamental reform of stamp duty. Stamp duty, ultimately, is a tax on social mobility and aspiration. It prevents people from moving house to pursue new job opportunities, it prevents growing families from moving to more appropriate accommodation and, at the same time, it prevents those who want to downsize.

In my constituency, stamp duty has unintended consequences. People cannot afford the stamp duty to move to a bigger house, so what do they do? They start to renovate and to extend their existing house. For people who live in dense terraces in central London, that often means basement excavations, with all of the nuisance and noise that they cause to neighbours. Similarly, a lot of people who are in private rented accommodation are put off buying because they are concerned about the amount of stamp duty.

I completely accept the comments of the Minister that we cannot simply cut taxes without thinking about where revenue will come from, but I argue that the current levels of stamp duty at 5%, 10% and 12% are punitive levels of taxation. Certainly in my constituency, we have simply seen the number of transactions fall. I had a look at the numbers in Kensington: from 2015-16 to 2018-19, the fall in the total number of transactions was 38%, and the fall in the value of those transactions to the Exchequer was 26%. My hon. Friend for South Cambridgeshire (Anthony Browne) made the point about what we lose not only in stamp duty, but in building and renovations and in lawyers’ fees.

I welcome this measure. I am not naive—we need tax revenue in future—but I feel that this tax needs to be looked at in detail and can be finessed.

00:02
Andrew Griffith Portrait Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con)
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It is a pleasure to follow not only my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington (Felicity Buchan) but so many of my colleagues who were elected for the first time in December 2019.

I warmly welcome the scrapping of stamp duty for purchases of up to £500,000. With average house prices of about £450,000 in Arundel and South Downs, that will help some but not all my constituents directly. However, everyone will benefit from the resulting boost to the economy—the construction industry, painters, decorators, plumbers, electricians, brick makers, timber merchants, furniture and removal companies, and my hard-hit local garden centres, growers and landscape designers—and, because the supply chain stretches across the whole country, the whole Union will benefit.

The measure is temporary, but after such an excellent debate and such warm words from our colleagues, I wonder whether I can tempt the Minister to settle on this particular piece of fiscal real estate more permanently. In fact, we could make it an early down payment on the vital work to come of simplifying the tax system that he has inherited—a system that, despite the honourable and herculean endeavours of HMRC, is essentially broken.

According to the World Bank index, the UK is a creditable eighth in the world for the competitiveness of our tax rates, but a rather less competitive 27th for ease of understanding and paying taxes. That is no surprise with a tax code that now runs to more than 10 million words. Along with my Front-Bench colleagues, we have an excellent Chancellor with a sharp intellect and a ferocious work ethic, but it would take him a whole year to read it—by which time it would be Budget time and, like Sisyphus, he would have to start all over again.

What better time is there to start a crusade for fairer, flatter and simpler taxes, and I note the comments made by my hon. Friends the Members for Runnymede and Weybridge (Dr Spencer) and for Keighley (Robbie Moore)? What better place to start than a tax that does for housing transactions what the window tax did for windows? It is wrong to think of stamp duty as a modest percentage of the price: although the purchase price of a property can be spread over 20 or 25 years, stamp duty has to be paid in a lump sum up front, so it is much more like a deposit, which is the biggest hurdle for generation rent. At a time when interest rates are at all-time lows, it is about not affordability but access to up-front capital. In that sense, we can think of stamp duty as a tax on social mobility. If someone has capital, or their family does, they can quickly pass go, but if their bank of mum and dad—or perhaps just mum or just dad—happens to be empty, getting on or moving up the ladder is much harder.

It is not as if the housing market was working perfectly, even without the Bill. Prices are out of reach for first-time buyers while empty-nesters are penalised for downsizing. Planning permissions are already in place for more than a million homes—all that the nation will ever need—but those homes are not getting built. Labour tax raids on pension savings destroyed confidence and channelled savings instead into buy-to-let. The planning system incentivised developers to build homes in exactly the wrong places, because that is where the arbitrage is the greatest. Intervention is heaped on intervention, so that, like a teenager’s carpet, we can no longer see the original pattern. I shall return to that subject on behalf of my constituents in West Grinstead, Adversane and Henfield, whose lives are being blighted by the prospect of inappropriate and unsustainable developments.

Finally, let us remember that the rate of tax is a floor, not a ceiling. If the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Dan Carden), the shadow Chancellor or any of their supporters wish personally to pay more, that is a right that we on the Government Benches would never seek to deny them. I know that the Minister would be happy to let them know the details for where to send the cheque. Now is a time to be bold and decisive and to act fast. The Bill and the measure in it fully meet that objective, and I am proud to support it.

20:11
Pat McFadden Portrait Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)
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It has been a pleasure to listen to this debate and the many interesting contributions. I cannot mention every Member who has spoken, but we have had a lot of interesting contributions. The hon. Members for South Thanet (Craig Mackinlay) and for Runnymede and Weybridge (Dr Spencer), and perhaps one or two others, urged the Government to abolish stamp duty completely. The hon. Member for Dudley South (Mike Wood) spoke of the importance of confidence in the market in the face of impending job losses.

In a thoughtful contribution, the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Miriam Cates) spoke of the impact of relationship breakdown on housing transactions. My hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) spoke of the appalling conditions that many families find themselves living in, and eloquently set out how distant is the dream or aspiration of home ownership for so many people. The hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Anthony Browne) gave us the benefit of his long experience in these matters in calling for an increased rate for second homeowners.

Stamp duty holidays are a familiar feature of economic crisis management. As has been referenced in the debate already, in 2008 the then Chancellor, Alistair Darling, raised the level at which stamp duty was paid in an effort to kick-start the housing market, which had been hit hard by the global financial crisis. At that time, the measure had a positive effect and brought forward an increase in the number of transactions. This time, we do not yet know of the effect.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Dan Carden) said, another thing that we do not know is whether the Government really intended to introduce this measure, at least at this time. We saw the briefing, the counter-briefing, the leak and the counter-leak; in the end the Government have announced it now, rather than in some post-dated way that would have simply killed the housing market stone dead. After all, why would anyone choose to buy a house now if they were promised a tax cut on the transaction in some months’ time?

It is normal, of course, for the Treasury to weigh up its options for a statement such as last week’s. There is nothing wrong with considering different ideas, accepting some and rejecting others, but for that exercise to work, it has to be done in private. If the leaks were not a problem, Government Members must ask the Prime Minister why he was railing against them at the end of last week when he was discussing these measures. Once it was out in the open, the Chancellor had to act, so the first question to be asked about this policy, before we even get to its merits, is: was it the result of a £4 billion leak? If that is the case and the Chancellor was effectively bounced into this policy as a result of information coming out in an unintended way, this must be the biggest plumbing bill of all time. We might never know, so let me turn to the merits of the policy itself.

The reason the Chancellor gave for the measures before us was that housing transactions had fallen sharply in April and May. It is true that housing is a very important part of our economy, for all the reasons that we have heard in the debate. Governments of both colours have supported the ambition of people to own their own home, as we do today. Depending on where you live, stamp duty can be a significant cost to house buyers. Although the history of temporary cuts in stamp duty rates tells us that, over the longer term, they might make little difference to the volume of transactions, they can serve to bring forward demand when a market has been hit for one reason or another. When people move house, there is a positive knock-on effect, and we have heard about many of those effects today, whether it is the purchase of new furniture or electrical goods or the employment of people doing repairs and renovations.

We do not oppose this measure. We support the desire for people to own their own homes. We certainly do not celebrate the reduction in home ownership over the past 10 years or the fact that 800,000 fewer people under the age of 45 own their own home today compared with 10 years ago—and 10 years is important. The Government have had a decade to address the question of home ownership. I put it to all the champions of home ownership who have spoken in the debate: are they really proud that it is harder to own a home now than it was when they came into office 10 years ago? Are they really proud that it is so much more difficult for younger people to get on the housing ladder? I do not think they can be proud of that decade-long record.

As with a number of the measures announced last week, we have concerns about how well this is targeted. Stamp duty has changed over the years, with different rates put in at different levels. If the Chancellor really wanted to announce a stamp duty holiday, was it necessary to extend it to buy-to-let landlords and people purchasing second homes? What will be the benefits for overseas buyers, some of whom have seen the most expensive London property almost as a reserve currency? Both those groups are already treated differently within the existing regime, and they could have been treated differently in this change. That is why we have tabled a new clause calling for a report on the effect of this decision on these very different groups of homebuyers. We are for measures that help hard-working people to buy their own home, but we are not for measures that simply channel funds to areas where they are not needed or that go against the grain of some of the changes that have been made to stamp duty in recent years.

That takes me to a wider point about the measures announced last week. The job retention bonus has been criticised by a number of commentators for having a significant dead-weight cost—that is to say, giving money to businesses for doing things they would have done anyway. That is why the measure was not signed off by the head of HMRC, who questioned the “value for money” of the proposal. It was of course absolutely essential for the Government to step up and support the economy during a lockdown that was imposed for public health reasons, and the costs of not doing so, both economically and socially, would have far outweighed the costs of doing so. But that does not mean that the Treasury and the Chancellor are absolved of the duty to target that support properly on measures that really can make a difference to the recovery, or to use taxpayers’ money wisely.

Like all Budgets and all Budget statements, the measures announced can look a little different after a few days’ examination and scrutiny, and that has proved to be the case with last week’s statement. Within 24 hours of this supposed statement for jobs, thousands of job losses in Boots and John Lewis were announced—great British companies in a sector that got almost no attention from the Chancellor last week. So the question, above and beyond the detail of the measures before us tonight, is whether, after last week’s statement, all these measures match up to the scale of the economic and, in particular, the jobs challenge that the country is facing. We called for a Budget for jobs because we have heard the warnings about the danger to jobs in many parts of the economy. This is not a crisis that affects all sectors equally. The Chancellor conceded that point with his targeted cut in VAT for tourism and hospitality. It is absolutely right to help those sectors, but there are others that desperately need help too—retail, manufacturing, aviation, transport and many more.

There is one more crucial point. Getting the economy moving again is not just a matter of the kind of measures that we are debating this evening, because the health response and the economic response have to go together. It is not just the lack of a £10 discount that is stopping people eating out; it is fear—fear and lack of confidence that the Government are adequately on top of the public health situation. After tens of thousands of deaths, and with the Government’s boast of a world-beating track-and-trace system having been turned to dust, it is little wonder that there is fear and lack of confidence. If the Government really want to get the economy moving again, they have to give the public the confidence that they are on top of the public health crisis as well as putting the right economic support measures in place.

We do not oppose these measures, but we remain convinced that the economic and health responses must be brought together, and that more measures than those announced last week will be necessary to help the economy through the very tough period for jobs that is already upon us.

20:22
Jesse Norman Portrait The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman)
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I thank all hon. and right hon. Members for what has been a very interesting debate, across the Chamber. I also thank the Labour Members for their support on this measure, because it is wise on their part but also indicates that they share at least this aspect of the Government’s vision for the economy.

This pandemic represents, as the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) said, not merely a public health crisis but a profound shock to our economy. That is why, last Wednesday, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor unveiled the Government’s plan for jobs. The purpose of that plan, as he articulated, was to protect, to support and to create jobs across this country.

As we have heard in this debate, the property market has been particularly hard hit, with almost 90% fewer mortgage approvals in May than in February, before the lockdown at began. Not only is this a source of terrible frustration and uncertainty for buyers and sellers who must put their lives on hold in that respect as in so many others, but the reverberations have been felt across the economy. More than 24,000 people are directly employed by house builders, with hundreds of thousands more in the supply chain, and there is a knock-on effect for removal companies, furniture stores, painters and decorators, and many other businesses large or small that benefit when people move—a point nicely made by my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley South (Mike Wood) when he talked about his role as chair of the APPG on the furniture industry, and rightly so.

There are, however, signs that the market is beginning to recover, with some 16% more transactions in May than in April. It is in the interests of both homebuyers and the wider economy that that trend should gather momentum and speed over the coming months. That is why the plan for jobs included a commitment to increase temporarily the nil rate band of residential stamp duty tax from £125,000 to £500,000. Alongside the green homes grant, the aim was to inject momentum back into the housing market so that the economy can start to move forward once again. The Bill today puts that commitment into action and will ensure that the new band can take effect from 8 July—last Wednesday—until 30 March 2021.

Turning to the points raised in the debate, the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East asked whether this policy was designed in some way to benefit second home owners. I can reassure him that it is quite untrue to suggest that the measure will disproportionately benefit second home owners. Although those buying second homes or buy-to-let properties will benefit, and make a very important economic contribution in so doing, they will continue to pay an additional 3% on top of the standard stamp duty land tax rates. Let us not forget that it was this Government who introduced the phasing out of finance costs relief, as well as the higher rates of stamp duty land tax for the purchase of additional property—all steps towards a more balanced tax treatment between homeowners and landlords.

The hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Dan Carden), in his opening speech, talked about the limited scale of this package of measures. All I can say to him is that his memory is a lot shorter than many others, as £30 billion used to be considered a rather large amount of money. Certainly, it was no slouch of a budget statement to announce that much. It is a measure of how much our times have changed that that should be seen to be the case.

The right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East raised the question of whether the Government were reacting in some sense to a leak which, nevertheless, would have itself encouraged forestalling. I can tell him that I have dozens of officials across the Treasury thinking about tax strategy who have the concept of avoiding forestalling ingrained, tattooed on their eyebrows and embedded in their heart like the word “Calais” on the heart of Queen Mary in the 16th century. The idea that they would ever have contemplated that is risible. They did not.

Let me turn to some of the other comments that were made in the debate. The hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Matt Western) shared with us his concerns about growing wealth inequalities. I understand that. Would he, or maybe the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton, like to clarify his position on a wealth tax? Would he be in favour of that? What is the Labour party’s position? He is welcome to intervene on me if he has a view on that, as is the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton, who perhaps could do so in Committee. It is causing us a certain amount of uncertainty and it must be causing voters even more.

The hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh), in a very thoughtful speech, invited the Government to build more. I can direct her, if I may, to an article in The Guardian on 14 November last year, which points out that house building in England is at a 30-year high. As colleagues have mentioned, we have a £12.2 billion affordable homes programme in place at the moment, so she can take it as read, I hope, that both sides of the housing market are very well attended to at the moment.

My hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Dr Spencer) raised whether we should scrap stamp duty all together. I was perhaps slightly harsh, but I always take it as an additional measure of credibility when colleagues can come forward, as my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) did—and my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Anthony Browne)—with a specific suggestion for how the gap could be filled. What was charming about my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire was that although he believes the abolition of this tax will fire up the market, temporarily at least, he did not seem to think that doubling the additional tax would have any effect on the market. I thought that was an interesting economic contribution and I invite him to raise that possibility with his friends at the Institute for Fiscal Studies, since he is a board member or senior advisor there.

Let me wind up by saying that this is an important measure, which comes at a time when the pandemic has tested our economy to the limit. Through our collective effort, we will bring this virus under control. We have done so and we will continue to do so, and we will support our economy as it reopens in a way that is safe. For those reasons, I commend this Bill to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed to a Committee of the whole House (Order, this day).

Nigel Evans Portrait Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
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Order. Before I ask the Clerk to read the title of the Bill, I should explain that, in these exceptional circumstances, although the Chair of the Committee would normally sit in the Clerk’s Chair during Committee stage, in order to comply with social distancing requirements I shall remain in the Speaker’s Chair carrying out the role of Chairman of the Committee. We should be addressed as Chairs of the Committee rather than as Deputy Speakers.

Stamp Duty Land Tax (Temporary Relief) Bill

Committee stage & 3rd reading & 3rd reading: House of Commons & Committee: 1st sitting & Committee: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Commons Chamber
Read Full debate Stamp Duty Land Tax (Temporary Relief) Act 2020 View all Stamp Duty Land Tax (Temporary Relief) Act 2020 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Committee of the whole House Amendments as at 13 July 2020 - (13 Jul 2020)
Considered in Committee (Order, this day)
[Mr Nigel Evans in the Chair]
Clause 1
Reduced rates of SDLT on residential property for a temporary period
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Nigel Evans Portrait The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)
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With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Clause 2 stand part.

New clause 1—Review of impact of Act

“(1) The Chancellor of the Exchequer must lay before the House of Commons within three months of Royal Assent a review of the impact of this Act. (2) Such a review must include an assessment of the impact of the Act on— (a) first-time buyers, (b) existing owner-occupiers moving home, (c) buy-to-let investors, (d) those buying second homes, and (e) overseas buyers.”

Member’s explanatory statement This new clause would require the Chancellor of the Exchequer to report to Parliament on the impact of the Act, and in particular its impact on different groups of property owner.

20:31
Jesse Norman Portrait The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman)
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This Bill increases the nil rate band of stamp duty land tax from £125,000 to £500,000 from 8 July 2020 and runs until 31 March 2021. If I may, I will speak to clauses 1 and 2, and also to new clause 1 tabled in the name of the Leader of the Opposition.

This Bill contains two clauses. Clause 1 provides for the thresholds at which stamp duty land tax is due on residential property to be increased for a temporary release period, with effect from 8 July 2020 to 31 March 2021. The effect of this is that the first £500,000 of consideration for standard purchases of residential property will be free of tax, whereas previously only the first £125,000 was free of tax. The clause changes the rules in relation to other elements of stamp duty land tax, which are affected by the temporary holiday, such as the higher rate for the purchase of additional properties and first-time buyers’ relief. The higher rate traditional dwellings will continue to apply in addition to the standard rates of stamp duty land tax. This means that for purchase of additional dwellings, the first £500,000 of the consideration will be subject to the higher rates of 3% on top of any existing SDLT rates. Further, the clause ensures that section 57B and schedule 6ZA of the Finance Act 2003, which gives effect to first-time buyers’ relief, is temporarily disregarded until 31 March 2021.

Finally, the clause makes sure that no additional checks will be due when a contract is completed after the temporary relief period has ended, if the transaction was substantially performed within the temporary relief period. This is provided that the only reason for additional tax becoming due is the return to the standard rates of SDLT after the end of the temporary relief period.

Clause 2 provides that the Bill may be cited as the Stamp Duty Land Tax (Temporary Relief) Bill. The Bill comes into force on Royal Assent, but applies in relation to transactions with an effective date on or after 8 July 2020. As a result of the resolutions passed by the House of Commons under the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act 1968, the Bill’s provisions have effectively been in force since the 8 July 2020.

I shall briefly turn to Labour’s new clause 1, which calls for a review of the impact of the Act. To that I would respond that Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs routinely publishes quarterly and annual statistics and analysis of stamp duty land tax data, including on first-time buyers and those purchasing additional dwellings. The Government also already closely monitor those statistics and keep stamp duty policy under constant review. As part of that, we will continue to examine the effect of the temporary rate change. This is a straightforward Bill to enact the temporary relief to stamp duty land tax announced last week by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. I therefore commend clauses 1 and 2 to the House and ask the House to reject new clause 1.

Dan Carden Portrait Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)
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It is a pleasure to speak in the Committee stage of the Bill. The Bill was only published at the beginning of the debate, and it has just two clauses. I will direct my remarks primarily to our new clause 1. We are asking the Government at least to accept the principle behind the new clause. I do not think the Financial Secretary to the Treasury was able to put our minds at rest on the question of which people and groups will benefit from the cut set out in the Bill. He said that it was quite untrue that it would benefit the owners of second homes or multiple homes, but I think we need a review to give us the facts. We need to find out whether first-time buyers, existing owner-occupiers moving home, buy-to-let investors, those buying second homes and overseas buyers are among groups that will benefit from the policy.

The Financial Secretary did not give us a clear response to the fact that £1.3 billion of the cost of this scheme looks likely to benefit those who are already home owners. We want the Government to commit to reviewing the Bill’s impact in an open and transparent way. We want to know whether such a large sum will deliver value for money and what the broader impact of this will be on the housing sector. The Government should want to consider how this, their flagship policy, will contribute to solving the housing crisis and how it will impact on the economy overall. Our new clause will help to achieve that, and the Government should accept it.

Wera Hobhouse Portrait Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)
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Covid-19 has highlighted the deep inequalities that existed long before this pandemic. Many people have been left desperate for support. Hundreds of thousands of people already have less money coming in, and hundreds of thousands have lost, or will lose, their jobs. The Government have thrown an eye-watering amount of money at our economy, but we do not yet know how this increasing mountain of debt will be paid back, or by whom. In the meantime, paying bills, rents and mortgages has become hard for millions of households. We must therefore question whether this tax cut should be a priority for the Government. It is expected to cost £3.8 billion, yet it will mainly benefit the wealthiest. The average earner, including the young generation who are struggling to pay ever-increasing rents, let alone be able to put down enough money to buy a house, will see nothing of it. The discount might provide a tax holiday for the privileged few, but it completely ignores the fact that the majority of people are unable to buy a home of their own now, and are never likely to do so in the future.

In my constituency of Bath, the availability of housing for first-time buyers is limited and house prices are expensive. The average house price in Bath is currently more than £430,000. A first-time buyer would qualify for £10,000 under the new rates, but even that would provide little benefit to a first-time buyer in my constituency who cannot secure a deposit or who faces an unaffordable mortgage. The cut to stamp duty will not solve the real problems at the heart of the housing crisis. Housing is one of the most important sectors for job creation—I agree with the Minister on that—but where is the focus on building social homes for rent? Social homes are the only way to provide secure and affordable housing for everyone, but, most importantly, for those on lower incomes. The private sector has completely failed to build social homes, and only a huge Government infrastructure programme to build social housing, as we saw in the ’50s and ’60s, will bring our social housing stock back to where it needs to be. That would create the jobs we need as well as the homes we need. Surely at this time, genuinely affordable homes are more important than ever, and more important than a stamp duty cut.

Lastly, the climate emergency has not gone away during covid, and we know that emissions from homes account for 30% of UK emissions. Decarbonising homes is therefore crucial to getting to net zero. Improving the energy efficiency of social housing is something that the Government could do straight away. They could also require landlords to achieve minimum levels of energy efficiency in order to be able to rent their homes. We need a Government with a vision to get the economy going, not a tax cut for only the few.

Jesse Norman Portrait Jesse Norman
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I thank the hon. Members for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) and for Liverpool, Walton (Dan Carden) for their comments. There may be some slight misapprehension from the hon. Gentleman—I did not actually say what he said I said. I said it is not true that this measure will disproportionately benefit second home owners, and that is because it has a proportionate effect across the whole population of home ownership. However, he should also be reassured that we in the Treasury keep a very careful watch over these taxes. They are monitored and assessed and their impacts are regularly reported on.

As I said, the Bill will help to deliver a Government aim to ensure that people feel confident to move, buy, sell, renovate and improve their homes, and it is a policy that the Labour party has indicated that it supports. On that basis, I commend clauses 1 and 2 to the House and respectfully ask that it does not support new clause 1.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair.

Bill reported, without amendment.

Third Reading

20:41
Jesse Norman Portrait Jesse Norman
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I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

Mr Deputy Speaker, let me say how gracefully you migrated from being Chairman to Mr Deputy Speaker without any of us really noticing the change—thank you for that brilliant transfiguration. It is extraordinary to think that it is now four months almost to the day since my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer stood before the House to deliver the Government’s first Budget. That proved to be the first in a series of very large economic interventions from this Government, all of which have been designed to buttress our public services and protect the most vulnerable in our society from this virus, while also supporting people’s jobs and livelihoods through the lockdown. Four months on, as he said, a “new phase” has begun in the Government’s economic response to covid-19 with the publication of our plan for jobs.

As the Chancellor made clear when he addressed the House last Wednesday, there is no room for dogma or ideology in this approach. If the first phase of our response focused on protection, this second phase is focused on the need to give everyone the opportunity of good and secure work in the future. However, it is certainly not the last measure that we will enact. The Government have said that they will bring forward both a Budget and a spending review in the autumn, when we will be in a better position to put our public finances on a secure footing and consider the long-term fiscal measures required for a sustained and successful recovery. Nor should we forget that many of the programmes that the Government have introduced to date still have a significant time to run. They include the coronavirus jobs retention scheme, the furlough scheme and the self-employment income support scheme, which will continue through the summer and the early autumn before ending in October.

However, at this moment millions of people are still facing considerable uncertainty and fearing for their jobs right now. They need to know that there is hope for the future, which is why we have acted with a plan for jobs. This Bill—I hope soon it will be an Act—is a very important part of that plan for jobs, and I commend it to the House.

20:43
Dan Carden Portrait Dan Carden
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The Opposition will not be opposing the Bill. We are acutely aware that people need support after months of lockdown when they were unable to buy or sell their homes, but while we are not opposed to giving homeowners and buyers additional support to get through this crisis, we have concerns about who will benefit most from the Bill.

Last week, we should have had a back-to-work Budget that targeted support at the sectors and jobs most affected by this terrible crisis, but we did not get one. Instead, we got scattergun giveaways that will not deliver for those who need it most—giveaways such as this Bill, which was frantically pulled together at the end of last week after more clumsy miscommunication at the highest level of Government.

Last week’s statement was another example of rhetoric over reality with this Government. It was cobbled together to get as many likes as possible, without due consideration for the long-term impact on the economy. It did nothing to target support to those who need it most during this difficult time. It did nothing for those who have so far been excluded from Government support during this crisis. Above all, it did nothing to address the Government’s failure to get an effective test and trace system in place so that people can feel confident leaving their homes and returning to some sort of normality.

As my hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor put it so succinctly last week, families are not staying home because they are waiting for a tenner off a meal. They are staying home because they are still worried about coronavirus. We do not just need incentives; we need confidence.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

00:01
Sitting suspended.

Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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00:05
Jacob Rees-Mogg Portrait The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg)
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I beg to move,

That Chris Grayling, Sir John Hayes, Stewart Hosie, Dame Diana Johnson, Mr Kevan Jones, Dr Julian Lewis, Mark Pritchard and Theresa Villiers be appointed to the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament under Section 1 of the Justice and Security Act 2013.

I rise to speak to the motion in my name—in the Prime Minister’s name actually—on the Order Paper. Under the terms of section 1 of the Justice and Security Act 2013, members of the Intelligence and Security Committee are nominated by the Prime Minister and appointed by the respective House. The Prime Minister has nominated the members, following the required consultations with the leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition. The House is now being asked to make the appointments in accordance with the Act. I commend this motion to the House.

20:50
Valerie Vaz Portrait Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
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I thank the Leader of the House for bringing forward the motion. It has been the longest time taken to set up the Intelligence and Security Committee; I think the last time it has taken so long was in 1994. He will know that I have raised this at business questions several times, so setting up the Committee today cannot go without some acknowledgment of the delay, and perhaps an apology to the House. That would be much appreciated.

We have heard from eminent Members of this House, such as Dominic Grieve, the former Chair, who warned that

“the effective and robust oversight of the intelligence community, entrusted to us, is too important to have been left in a vacuum for so many months.”

Lord Ricketts said:

“It was a fundamental part of the deal when the intelligence agencies got more intrusive powers to combat terrorism that at the same time Parliament got stronger powers of oversight”,

and the Intelligence and Security Committee is that “oversight”. Four important inquiries were going on and of course the Russia report, which has been on the Prime Minister’s desk for six months. Can the Leader of the House say when that will be published?

I am pleased by the Opposition team. As the Leader of the House said, the Opposition nominate their members, and we have a fantastic team in my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson), my right hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and Lord West. They are assiduous parliamentarians, and they will do their work diligently. I also want to place on the record my thanks to David Hanson and Caroline Flint for their work on the Committee.

With this Committee, we are able to preserve the balance between liberty and security. The robust and continuous oversight of the intelligence and security community is both necessary for our democracy and vital for our national security. Her Majesty’s Opposition support the motion.

20:51
Wera Hobhouse Portrait Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)
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This motion has been brought forward only after considerable pressure from Opposition Members. Two weeks ago, I tabled an early-day motion, which received widespread support. I am far from being the only MP who has been campaigning for the Committee to re-form, yet it has taken the Government until this week—nine days before the summer recess—to act. It has been widely reported that the Prime Minister has put forward a candidate to be appointed Chair of the Committee. This says a lot about how the Government see the role of Parliament. The role of Chair is a matter for the Committee to decide.

It is obvious that the first order of business for the new Committee needs to be the publication of the report into alleged Russian interference in our democracy. In the UK, we value democracy, so why does all of this matter? Because serious questions need to be answered about foreign interference in our democracy. Can our elections be bought with money from abroad? The idea that our democracy could be compromised is deeply disturbing. The report was meant to be released before the last general election; it was not. What does this tell us about the 2019 elections? Parliament must come to terms with this very simple question: has there been interference in our UK democracy? The public have a right to know.

Otherwise, the question is: can we trust our current Government with our democracy? It is far past the time when both the MPs and the public have a right to see the full contents and any conclusions that are made. To insist that this is normal practice is an insult to the intelligence of both Opposition MPs and the public in general. Previous generations understood, often to their cost, that democracy has to be fought for. It is something we hoped we would never have to do again, but democracy always has to be fought for. How does it start? When elections are tampered with. Were our elections being compromised, and are the Government trying to hide the truth? This is just the beginning of a long struggle. I do not expect allies on the Government Benches, but for all of us on the Opposition side of the House, fighting for open, accountable Government is our fight.

20:54
Kevan Jones Portrait Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
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I welcome this motion to form the Intelligence and Security Committee. The only two survivors of the Committee that sat in the last Parliament are myself and the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie), if the House agrees to the motion. It is right to pay tribute to the Members who served on the last Committee, including Dominic Grieve, the Chairman. He might be a Marmite figure on the Government Benches, but he was a good Chair, a fair Chair and someone who not only worked collegiately with Members across the House and political parties but took a keen interest in the subject of security and intelligence. I pay tribute to Richard Benyon and Keith Simpson. Keith is a loss because he was our resident historian on the Committee. I wish all three of them well. I would also like to pay tribute to my two Labour colleagues, Caroline Flint and David Hanson, for their service to not only the Committee but the last Labour Government, as two very fine Ministers.

Chris Grayling Portrait Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I entirely endorse what the right hon. Gentleman just said about the Committee’s previous members. Although many of us on the Government Benches had some points of difference with Dominic Grieve in his last few months in the House, I worked with him over many years, and he was a very distinguished Chair and a very distinguished parliamentarian.

Kevan Jones Portrait Mr Jones
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am sure that he will welcome those comments.

I want to pay tribute to two peers who will no longer sit on the Committee. The first is the Marquess of Lothian, who had sat on the Committee since 2006. He was not only a great fount of knowledge but took a keen interest, and having that historical knowledge on the Committee was very important. The second is Lord Robin Janvrin, who also took a keen interest in the Committee and worked very hard. Being a Cross Bencher, he brought a different perspective from the party political point of view, and he made a huge contribution. Both should be recognised for the work they did on the Committee.

The shadow Leader of the House raised the length of time it has taken to form the Committee. It concerns me, because this is not the first time. In the last Parliament, it took an inordinate length of time to form the Committee. Independent oversight of our security services is an important part of our democracy, and we perhaps need to revisit the legislation to require the Committee to be formed within a certain period after the election of a Parliament. If we have these long delays, we are missing parliamentary oversight, and if we want to build public trust in the work of our security services, that oversight is important.

The Committee has completed three reports, although only one seems to get a lot of mention. The first is the annual report from last year, which is ready to be published. The second is the report on the procurement of the National Cyber Security Centre at Nova South. The third, which is obviously of interest to many, is the report on Russia. All three need to be published as a matter of urgency. It is important—and I will argue this if the House agrees to my appointment—that the Russia report is produced before Parliament goes into recess. There is no reason why it should not be. It has been through the Committee, agreed through the redaction process and agreed by Government. I would like to see it published at the earliest opportunity, and possibly next week.

In closing, I want to thank the secretariat, who work very hard to service the Committee, and put on record my thanks and the thanks of the whole House to the men and women of our security services, who work day in, day out to keep us safe.

20:59
Jacob Rees-Mogg Portrait Mr Rees-Mogg
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I shall answer the points that have been made, but may I begin by thanking the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) for his characteristically charming speech—it is why he is so highly regarded across the House—and for the way he paid tribute to the former members of the Committee? It is right that we thank those who have given public service. From my experience, I would say that Dominic Grieve was one of the most intelligent men I ever met in Parliament and he is someone I hold personally in the highest regard. I happen to disagree with him on what turned out to be the most important political issue of our time, but that does not mean that one does not both like and admire somebody. The right hon. Gentleman was right also to pay tribute to Keith Simpson and Richard Benyon, as well as to his own colleagues, Caroline Flint and David Hanson. They were all public servants who did their duty on this important Committee. I will not exclude the Lords: the Marquess of Lothian, better known as Michael Ancram, who is a very distinguished servant of the Conservative party and has always played an active role in public life—some might think a model of what a Marquess ought to do; and Lord Janvrin, who also played an important role on the Committee. This is a time to thank those who are no longer going to serve, but also to recognise the many abilities of those looking to serve.

I very much agree with the comments about how it is important to have proper democratic oversight of the way our security services work, but until relatively recent times the operation of our security services was entirely secret; it was unknown to anybody. The opening up of the scrutiny of our security services is to the public good. It ensures that we know what is being done in our name. I am grateful that my neighbour, the hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse), tabled an early-day motion, because that shows that Parliament is taking this level of scrutiny seriously.

That leads me to the point about the time it has taken to set up this Committee. A Committee of this importance needs to have the right people on it. Discussions were involved when a number of people had to leave. The two Labour members were not returned to Parliament, and Keith Simpson and Richard Benyon both retired from Parliament, which meant we had to form a very new Committee. That took time, as we needed to ensure that the right people, with the right level of experience and responsibility, could be appointed, and that they would agree to their appointment. I think we have an exceptionally distinguished Committee provided from this House: one in which we can all take considerable confidence.

I end with a note on foreign interference in elections. I think that has been a matter of concern to politicians since the Zinoviev letter, which is widely believed nowadays to have been a fake. Fear of foreign interference will come and go, but for any Government, and particularly for Her Majesty’s Government as currently constituted, it is and will always be an absolute priority to protect our democratic and electoral processes. During the last election, the Government took steps to protect the safety and security of our democratic processes. I do not believe that this House would expect anything less, and I do not think any Government of any colour would ever do anything that would endanger the security of our elections. I ask the House to support the motion.

Question put and agreed to.

Independent Pharmacies

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.(Maggie Throup.)
21:03
Bob Seely Portrait Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con)
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It is a pleasure to open this debate, which was prompted by a letter from an independent pharmacist in my constituency, Mr Tim Gibbs, who runs the Yarmouth pharmacy. Those who know it will know that it is not far from our beautiful harbour in Yarmouth and just opposite Yarmouth castle. I am delighted that this Minister is on the Front Bench, as I know she is a great supporter of pharmacies, pharmacists and indeed independent pharmacists. I am aware that the Health Secretary spoke at the National Pharmacy Association today. He spoke eloquently on the need for a major winter flu vaccination programme, which, clearly, we would welcome.

I will not speak for too long, as I am aware that one or two others wish to speak and it is getting late in the day, but I wish to cover some of the issues of concern to not only pharmacists, but independent pharmacists, who are especially important in isolated and rural communities, as other Members here, including those from places such as Cornwall, will testify. I have six independent pharmacists in my patch and all are highly valued. They include Tim in Yarmouth, Freshwater, Seaview, Ryde and Regent, which covers both East Cowes and Shanklin. I am grateful to Gary for taking the time to chat last week about some of the issues that have faced him.

Although many healthcare providers closed their doors during the covid pandemic, pharmacists stayed open, often at risk to themselves and their staff. For many people in our communities, NHS pharmacies were the visible face of healthcare on the high street. It is to their great credit that they stayed open and continued to serve their patients, often delivering medicines, at their own cost, to the homes of vulnerable and at-risk patients to make sure that those patients had what they needed. Pharmacy staff saw patients in person and ensured that the public—particularly vulnerable patients—had a consistent and safe supply of medicine. In doing so, they took considerable pressure off other elements of the health service, including GPs, who were often answering calls on the phone, and A&E.

However, I know from talking to Tim, Gary and other pharmacists in my patch that they face considerable financial insecurity on top of all the other problems. That is worse for pharmacists such as Tim who have to rely on over-the-counter trade. In Yarmouth, where there are a lot of yachts at weekends, he can usually make up the decline of income in other areas by selling soap and all the other good things that chemists sell, but in the covid period those sales took a significant hit. The same has been true for the independent pharmacies and many of the chemists in my patch. They have incurred many thousands of pounds in additional monthly costs from staying open and serving the community, and some of my independent pharmacists have even relied on volunteers.

Pharmacies have paid for the costs of installing screens, buying PPE—although I think the Isle of Wight Council helped Tim out after he requested it on a couple of occasions—hiring locums, paying overtime and absorbing the increases in the wholesale prices of medicines, which pharmacists are not allowed to pass on to their customers. That has created serious cash-flow problems.

I am very grateful, as we all are, that the Government provided £300 million in emergency loans to the sector at the outset of the crisis and have provided an additional £70 million since. Those are significant sums of money. The loans are, however, something of a sticking-plaster solution to cover the immediate covid costs that pharmacists have incurred and to make up for the longer-term shortfall. If pharmacists are left holding the bag for the costs that they have incurred through serving their communities in the past few months, many of them, including Tim, are worried that they will be forced to shut down in the next year or two. I believe that that would be a national shame. The ongoing uncertainty is an additional burden that pharmacists just do not need.

All pharmacists are valuable and they all play an important role. but because independent pharmacists are embedded in their community and represent a friendly, valued and, above all, trusted voice, they take pressure off A&E, GP surgeries and other areas of the NHS. On the Island, the number of GPs sits at roughly the average, but as the Minister well knows, we are struggling somewhat to make sure that there is an adequate supply of GPs to provide the primary care that this country needs.

I know that the Minister is a friend to pharmacists. Can she say something to reassure pharmacists—especially the independent ones—in my constituency and many others that the Government understand their valued and somewhat unique role, over and above chains of pharmacies, and that the Government wish to support them?

Holly Lynch Portrait Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab)
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I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who is making a powerful speech, and I congratulate him on securing this Adjournment debate. Having worked in an independent pharmacy while I was at school, I recognise the trusted relationship that he describes between the pharmacist and the community that they serve. When the funding formula for pharmacies changed in 2016, the then Minister told the then all-party group on pharmacy that between 1,000 and 3,000 pharmacies were expected to close because they would no longer be financially viable in the face of the cuts, so the outlook for pharmacies was already tough and bleak. A significant number of the pharmacies that have closed have been independent pharmacies. Does he agree that that is a real shame, and a real loss to those communities?

Bob Seely Portrait Bob Seely
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I thank the hon. Member for making that point. I was just about to quote those statistics myself, but I thank her for teeing up the next bit of what I would like to say.

As I understand it, the budget for community pharmacies is £2.6 billion—a significant amount of money but quite a small proportion of the NHS’s total budget. It stretches to cover some 11,500 community pharmacies, serving the majority of the population of the United Kingdom—about 56 million people. On average, each one serves about 5,000 people per month and dispenses 7,300 prescriptions.

In the last four years, as the hon. Member says, the funding for pharmacies has shrunk by a significant amount; I am quoted a figure of approximately £200 million. Tim and other pharmacists in my patch are concerned that there is now going to be significant additional pressure, and we have seen statistics to suggest that up to 3,000 pharmacies could close for good. That has not happened yet; these are threats. Some have closed, but the majority are still struggling on.

I believe that would be short-sighted in the extreme. I am sure the Minister agrees that a sustainable pharmacy sector is a critical part of the NHS network in this country because, as I said, it takes pressure off both A&E and GPs. We badly need it. Having used an independent community pharmacy myself, I know the added value of having somebody trusted to talk to, whether about a bunged-up ear because I swim too much—well, not at the moment—or about more serious concerns.

NHS pharmacies are ready and willing to support the test and trace programme—something I have knowledge of in my patch due to our experience trialling the app, which sadly was not taken further. They could help to ensure support for test and trace, for home testing kits, and certainly for the winter vaccination programme, which is likely to be of increased significance this year because of the potential for phase 2 of covid, which clearly we all hope does not happen.

There is strong public support for community pharmacies. A recent opinion poll showed that 81% hold a favourable view of pharmacies, 78% value a face-to-face relationship—I wish Members of this House had those sorts of approval ratings; we live in hope—and more than half want to see emergency covid funding turned into a permanent grant versus the significantly smaller amount who want to see it repaid.

Crucially, the public are ahead of the health bureaucracy in seeing the benefit of having this network of highly trained healthcare professionals in many communities in Britain; 84% say that the NHS should do more to make use of pharmacists’ skills. It does seem to be a bit of a wasted resource when we have people with so much skill and ability in dispensing medicine and in being the first port of call for many when they are feeling under the weather.

Some 71% of people think pharmacies should be able to expand their offering to take pressure off the NHS. I completely agree. I wonder how we can work towards that betterment, which is certainly in all our interests considering the relatively small amount of money compared with the overall NHS budget that goes towards pharmacies, specifically community pharmacies.

I will round up and let other Members speak, but may I tempt the Minister to talk about how she can support community pharmacies—the six in my patch but also the 11,500 across Britain? What can she say to reassure us that the financial support will be there? Losing independent pharmacies would be much more expensive in the long run than providing modest additional sums to ensure that we help keep their pharmacy businesses viable, especially during the covid period, when other elements of their business—the cash trade of the chemist—have clearly been declining. I very much look forward to her response.

21:13
Paul Bristow Portrait Paul Bristow (Peterborough) (Con)
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I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Bob Seely) on securing this important debate, and I am grateful to him for willing me to participate.

This has been an extraordinary period. Despite its challenges, the coronavirus emergency has revealed many of the strengths of our health and social care systems. One of the most important—a system that extends into the community well beyond our fantastic doctors and nurses—is, of course, the pharmacy sector. Community pharmacists are a vital part of the frontline. For example, the Newborough pharmacy was crucial to that village’s response to covid, and I want to place on the record my thanks to Meb Datoo, his wife and their team at Newborough village pharmacy.

Just as the role of care workers has become better appreciated in the last few months, I believe it is time to value our pharmacists. They have been an essential face-to-face part of our response. According to the latest research, more than 60% of the public visited a pharmacy during lockdown. Three quarters agree that the NHS should make more of pharmacists’ skills, both in the ongoing covid-19 situation and more broadly.

I am a member of the Health and Social Care Committee, and I am sure that in the future we will look at the value of pharmacies. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is the son of a pharmacist—that is perhaps not well known—so I am confident that the sector is appreciated not only by the Minister and her Department, but in Downing Street. That appreciation is needed.

Although the role and potential of pharmacies is now obvious, many are struggling to keep their doors open. The five-year financial deal for community pharmacies came into effect last summer, but I fear that it is not sufficient to keep the sector going, at least by itself. The Government have increased funding for the NHS by a record amount, and I am proud of that. I am also proud of the huge additional support to tackle coronavirus and deal with its consequences. Pharmacists deal with those consequences every day, and they deserve their fair share. We cannot let them shoulder greater responsibilities without the associated funding.

I agree with my hon. Friend that the sector needs to know whether it is, in effect, being asked to pay for the costs of covid—whether it is being asked to pay back the £370 million in Government loans. I do not necessarily expect the Minister to provide that answer tonight. I am sure she is sympathetic to the points that have been made, and I therefore hope that she agrees that, although our pharmacies are an excellent place to acquire a sticking plaster, they deserve a lot more than a sticking-plaster solution.

21:16
Jo Churchill Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Jo Churchill)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Bob Seely) for securing the debate and to the hon. Members who contributed to it. We are all pretty much in agreement about the value of our pharmacies. Our community pharmacies are an integral part of our healthcare system. We have often spoken in this Chamber and elsewhere about how assiduously my hon. Friend looks after the health needs of those on the Island, with its unique ecosystem.

As has been said, community pharmacies across the country, including those on the Isle of Wight, are at the very heart of our community. Everyone agrees that they play a vital role in providing medicines and health advice to all those who cross their threshold—the hon. Member for Halifax (Holly Lynch) said she did that while at school. Many pharmacists have told me that during lockdown they have had to develop a different relationship with their customers, because the whole setting and how they advise has changed. Rather than having a friendly chat, they have had to help many of their older customers navigate their way through the new system. The role of pharmacies is more important than ever in the covid-19 pandemic. Their sensible approach has helped to spread the public health message. They are integral to the prevention agenda.

I say that because, although the pandemic continues to challenge all parts of the health and care system, local pharmacies have remained open throughout. They have truly been the frontline. They have adapted to the pandemic by making their businesses covid-secure. They have innovated and shown immense resilience in responding to the challenges brought about by the pandemic.

The Health and Social Care Secretary and I—indeed, all colleagues in Government—are hugely grateful for the unequivocal commitment shown by community pharmacies. I am immensely proud to be the pharmacy Minister. I want to take this opportunity, as I have done before, to thank all those who have gone above and beyond during this crisis, helping those in our community who have walked through the shop door because they are frightened or require assistance. Pharmacies have always been there.

As the House may recall, last July we agreed a landmark five-year deal, the community pharmacy contractual framework, which committed almost £13 billion to community pharmacy or about £2.6 billion a year. It is the joint vision for how community pharmacy will support delivery of the long-term plan. Community pharmacists are part of our community life, and independent pharmacists account for almost 40% of the market. They are integral to the success of delivering the five-year deal and supporting the NHS. As we have heard this evening, patients value the diversity of pharmacies and the different settings in which they interact with their communities.

Maintaining access to NHS pharmaceutical services continues to be a key priority for the Government. The pharmacy access scheme protects access in areas where there are fewer pharmacies and higher health needs, so that no area is left without access to local, physical NHS pharmaceutical services.

During this crisis, the Government have put in place a financial package to provide support to all businesses, including independent pharmacies. Under the NHS contractual arrangements, we have made available £370 million in advance payments to help pharmacies with their cash flow. We have also provided additional funding for the new medicine delivery service for shielded patients to ensure that the vulnerable get their medication, and covered the cost of bank holiday opening. We are increasing the reimbursement prices for the most commonly prescribed generic medicines by £15 million a month from June.

We have responded to concerns from the sector by pausing some work in order to prioritise day-to-day activities and enable an environment that provides space to do the day job safely and, importantly, supports the health and welfare of staff. That is particularly important given the high proportion of community pharmacy staff from black, Asian and minority ethnic backgrounds. For example, 43% of registered pharmacists come from such backgrounds. We need to provide the right environment to keep everybody working at their optimum level.

This year’s pharmacy quality scheme comprises of two parts: an essential element that focuses solely on covid-19 activities, including individual covid-19 risk assessments, and a second part that will be in the usual spirit of the scheme. I urge all community pharmacists to participate in this year’s pharmacy quality scheme, especially the essential element, which will reward community pharmacies for undertaking steps to keep patients and staff safe during the pandemic.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight will appreciate, we are in regular conversation with the pharmacy contractors’ negotiating body, the Pharmaceutical Services Negotiating Committee. We have met stakeholders regularly throughout the pandemic to ensure we have that ongoing dialogue that is so important. We will continue to work closely with the PSNC, NHS England and NHS Improvement to consider what further support and funding contractors will need during the pandemic and as we move into the recovery phase.

We have just entered discussions on firm proposals for additional funding put forward by the Government to meet the extra costs incurred by pharmacists at the peak of the pandemic. To respond to this crisis, we have a need to reprioritise certain community pharmacy contractual framework services. The immediate challenge will be to restore those services and programmes planned for the 2020-21 period where we can do so and where it remains the right thing to do. I stress that we will work by talking to the profession, because this has been an extremely difficult time and, as everybody has said, pharmacists have responded amazingly to the demands that have been put on them.

There is also an opportunity to learn from the pandemic and facilitate changes that may have been more difficult previously. We will continue to build capacity and capability, test new services for potential future commissioning, and focus services on the areas that have the most impact on the population’s health. Community pharmacies have demonstrated how they can increase the uptake of flu vaccinations, as my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight said. That will be particularly important this winter, when we know that there will be increased uptake. I am keen for community pharmacies to do more in partnership with GPs in their local area and for them to be as one with their colleagues and treated like other members of the entire NHS family that we value so much. I sometimes feel that those in community pharmacies feel that perhaps we could go a little further in saying a big thank you to ensure that they feel part of the valued broader primary care network.

Isle of Wight community pharmacists are exceptional; indeed, in the past they have won awards for their work on the administration of hepatitis B and hepatitis C vaccines. We want to consider the role of community pharmacists in future vaccination programmes to maximise access.

The hon. Member for Halifax mentioned the anticipated loss of some 3,000 pharmacies; on this morning’s Zoom call with the National Pharmacy Association, the Secretary of State was clear that that would not happen on his watch and that any loss of pharmacies stopped when he arrived. Like me, he sees the value of community pharmacists. There are now 11,500 pharmacies throughout England, which is an uplift of some 12% since 2010.

I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Paul Bristow) that this period has shown how vital pharmacists are and the importance of the role that they play for us all.

The Medicines and Medical Devices Bill, which goes to the Lords next week, will introduce legislation that will pave the way for further consultation on what more the Government can do to support dispensing arrangements and a better skill mix in community pharmacy. With such a highly skilled workforce, if we can free up pharmacies to better use their skills for patient-facing services, helping to alleviate pressures not only on pharmacies but in primary care, that will help the whole sector and be a recognition of the high skill level that we have. We will help people, including those on the Isle of Wight, to adopt innovative practices, including the greater use of digital and technology. We will of course engage with the sector on any proposals that we make. Any regulations in this policy area would come before Parliament.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight again for securing this important debate. I know that the coming months will continue to be challenging for Tim and the other community pharmacists that my hon. Friend mentioned, but it is really important that they know quite how much they are valued by Members from all parties, but mostly by their communities. I am personally committed to continue to do all that I can to support community pharmacies, which are an essential part of our lives, our high streets and our NHS family.

Question put and agreed to.

00:04
House adjourned.

Draft Enterprise Act 2002 (Share of Supply) (Amendment) Order 2020

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

General Committees
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The Committee consisted of the following Members:
Chair: Caroline Nokes
† Anderson, Stuart (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)
† Bailey, Shaun (West Bromwich West) (Con)
† Barker, Paula (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab)
† Bowie, Andrew (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)
† Bradshaw, Mr Ben (Exeter) (Lab)
† Buchan, Felicity (Kensington) (Con)
† Gideon, Jo (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Con)
† McCabe, Steve (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
† Millar, Robin (Aberconwy) (Con)
† Onwurah, Chi (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
† Tarry, Sam (Ilford South) (Lab)
Thompson, Owen (Midlothian) (SNP)
† Tomlinson, Michael (Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty’s Treasury)
† Twist, Liz (Blaydon) (Lab)
† Wakeford, Christian (Bury South) (Con)
† Wood, Mike (Dudley South) (Con)
† Zahawi, Nadhim (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy)
Anwen Rees, Committee Clerk
† attended the Committee
First Delegated Legislation Committee
Monday 13 July 2020
[Caroline Nokes in the Chair]
Draft Enterprise Act 2002 (Share of Supply) (Amendment) Order 2020
16:30
None Portrait The Chair
- Hansard -

Before we begin, I remind Members about social distancing: spaces available to Members are clearly marked, and unmarked spaces must not be occupied. Our Hansard colleagues would be grateful if notes could be sent to hansardnotes@parliament.uk.

Nadhim Zahawi Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Nadhim Zahawi)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Enterprise Act 2002 (Share of Supply) (Amendment) Order 2020.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairwomanship, Ms Nokes. Before we begin, I will take a moment to thank our colleagues in the other place for their scrutiny of these orders. The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee has indeed brought this order and the section 58 order to the special attention of its House, which add a new public interest consideration on the grounds of public health emergencies to the Enterprise Act 2002. The Committee reported on these orders, noting that it

“considers that the policy changes made by the two Orders are potentially very significant.”

I value the continued work of both Houses in considering these legislative changes, and look forward to debating them today.

Investment, particularly overseas investment, is the lifeblood of our economy, and it is more important now than ever as our companies seek a much-needed boost to recover from the impact of covid-19. The UK economy is open to the world. International trade, investing abroad, and welcoming foreign investment at home are all central to our economic approach. The UK is often considered one of the best countries in the world in which to do business, if not the best. This is in no small part down to our educated workforce, world-beating science and sound regulatory framework, supported by an accessible and robust legal system. Last year, inward investment created more than 57,000 UK jobs. The vast majority of such investment raises no national security concerns whatsoever.

However, we need to be alert to the potential risks involved in ownership or control of critical businesses, which can provide opportunities to undermine our national security through espionage, sabotage or exerting inappropriate leverage. In the light of technological advancements, economic developments, changes in the national security threat, and of course the covid-19 emergency, it is now time for reform. Our international neighbours have acted decisively to address similar issues in Europe. Further afield, Australia has also amended legislation and processes. The pandemic has magnified the risks to our national security. We are now more exposed to opportunistic investors due to the depreciating effects of sterling and the financial pressures of a decrease in investor confidence, which has beset equities and the markets more widely.

We in the UK continually review and update the framework of laws and policies that protects our national security. That tradition of refinement and improvement has enabled the UK to remain internationally competitive, and a place where people can invest with confidence. It is time for us to reform again, to send a decisive message to those who would threaten our national security: the UK is open for investment, but not for exploitation.

I will briefly explain the amendments. The changes made by this order relate to the Government’s ability to intervene in mergers and, in the most extreme cases, block them. How and when the Government can intervene in this way is set out in legislation. Section 23A of the Enterprise Act 2002 includes a list of relevant enterprises: sectors where the threshold for Government intervention is lower. The relevant enterprises listed in the Act are all particularly sensitive sectors where there is a public interest or national security case for allowing the Government to intervene more readily. As it stands, there are three such sectors set out in the Act—military or dual-use technologies, quantum technology and computing hardware. However, as many colleagues will know, technology does not stand still. We now need to apply this lower threshold to other sectors too.

That is the effect of the order, which will add three further areas of the economy to the relevant enterprise list: artificial intelligence, cryptographic authentication technologies and advanced materials. Businesses falling within those categories are often at the forefront of research and innovation. They are small, agile businesses that thrive in an open, innovation-friendly economy. Those businesses produce cutting-edge technology, much of which may not yet be commercially viable but could have implications for our national security.

Breakthroughs in artificial intelligence, cryptographic authentication and advanced materials science are fundamental to other areas of social and economic development. They have underpinned advances in the physical and digital world, and continue to do so. Those technologies are critical to a number of our capabilities, including, of course, defence and security. There may be a risk of losing advantage in those areas if UK companies and the intellectual property that they generate are controlled by opportunistic or, dare I say it, malicious investors.

It goes without saying that the Government must be able to mitigate national security risks. Should an opportunistic investor wish to acquire and exploit a business, and if it would pose such a risk, we need to be able to intervene. The order will allow us to do so both by expanding the list of relevant enterprises to sectors where it is likely to be an issue as I have just set out, and by adjusting the test that applies to them.

In 2018, the £70 million turnover test was introduced and was reduced to £1 million for relevant enterprises. In addition, an amended share of supply test was applied. As a result, the Government can intervene where a relevant business that already has at least 25% share of supply is taken over. The acquiring party need not have any share of the supply of the same goods or services for the test to be met. Of course, that is not the case for businesses outside the scope of relevant enterprises.

We now propose to make a second statutory instrument, the day before the commencement of this share of supply test order, by the negative resolution procedure. It will allow the Government to intervene in mergers involving the three additional enterprise categories, if the target relevant enterprise has a UK turnover of more than £1 million, rather than the £70 million currently required by the 2002 Act.

The order has no impact on the forthcoming national security and investment Bill, which the Government intend to bring forward when parliamentary time allows. It is intended as a short-term measure that will apply until more fundamental reforms can be taken forward through the Bill. The provisions are of great importance to our national security and it is vital that the Government should be able to intervene in situations where UK national security is at risk.

16:38
Chi Onwurah Portrait Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a pleasure to serve for the first time with you in the Chair, Ms Nokes, and on a debate of such national importance.

The Labour party welcomes foreign direct investment into the UK. It helps to protect jobs and keeps us economically competitive on the international stage. The UK has been a magnet for foreign investment, attracting more than any other country in the European Union—when we were in it, of course; and we hope that will not change now that we have left. However, mergers and acquisitions can have implications that go far beyond the companies concerned. They may significantly reduce competition, leaving consumers vulnerable. They may provide unacceptable threats to jobs and communities. They may have an impact on our national security and the resilience of our critical national infrastructure.

With regard to the last two points in particular, enhancements to the Enterprise Act 2002 are required from time to time, to reflect evolving national security and critical infrastructure requirements. We understand perfectly that it is important to maintain national capabilities in key areas. Indeed, if we had acted to maintain capability in the key area of telecommunications, we would be in a much better position when dealing with the challenge of high-risk vendors, such as Huawei, to the security of our mobile communications.

By the way, we are still waiting for the telecoms security Bill that was a belated attempt to do just that, so perhaps the Minister can tell us when we will see it. An important example of updating the criteria of the Act in response to evolving requirements was Labour’s introduction of the UK’s financial system as a criterion in the Act following the 2008 global financial crisis—an intervention that will no doubt be protecting businesses from hostile takeovers during the covid-19 recession.

Labour broadly welcomes the addition of artificial intelligence, cryptographic authentication and advanced materials in the relevant enterprise categories. As the shadow Minister for science, research and digital, I know only too well how vital those sectors are to our national security and infrastructure, and the importance of retaining pioneering tech organisations, but I am concerned that the Government do not value our world-leading tech enterprises enough.

In 2014, Britain had probably the most important and groundbreaking artificial intelligence company in the world, DeepMind, which Forbes described as “world-leading”. Nevertheless, the Government allowed it to be sold to Google for £400 million with no investigation or action, even though its acquisition generated significant concerns of monopoly provision.

Concerns have previously been raised by stakeholders about the suitability of the definitions of the relevant enterprise categories. It is important that the Government show they are listening and respond to businesses asking for further clarity, to ensure that no business falls under the scope of the Act without good reason. The Government will also need to keep the relevant enterprise category lists under review and up to date with any relevant new technologies and sectors as they emerge, with the consent of Parliament.

It is important to know what discussions the Government have had with key institutes and societies in the field to define the categories. For example, have they discussed the definition of artificial intelligence with the Alan Turing Institute? I find the definition quite broad.

Small businesses play a significant role in driving innovation in the sectors that we are talking about, as the Minister mentioned, so Labour supports the principle of lowering the turnover threshold from £70 million, which will be applied by a parallel order made under section 28(6) of the 2002 Act. However, I reiterate the anxieties of trade associations, which say that the £1 million figure that the Minister cited could lead to microbusinesses that develop or trade in products or services that could be a threat to national security slipping through the net.

Why does the Minister think it is necessary to have a threshold barrier to the Government intervening on mergers on the grounds of public interest or national security? Could the Competition and Markets Authority not decide whether a merger was important enough to meet the tests? Why was the £1 million figure chosen? We encourage the Government to remove or review the figure in due course.

One of the main reasons that small innovative businesses actively seek out acquisition or foreign investment is to access finance and resources. Since its acquisition, DeepMind has benefited from significant support from Google, a company whose resources exceed that of many states—although not, I hope, the United Kingdom. Does the Minister have plans to do anything in those key technology sectors apart from blocking takeovers?

When a takeover is blocked on those grounds, what support will be offered to the UK company concerned? For example, if the sale of DeepMind had been blocked, as it could well have been, had the Government understood the importance of artificial intelligence earlier, what support would it have received from the UK Government? Are the Government looking at new models to support businesses in critical areas such as this?

I am referring to something that the Government find it very hard to talk about: industrial strategy. As I have said, we have seen nothing of the promised industrial strategy to diversify our telecoms supply chain. What measures are the Government looking at to strengthen and diversify the supply in artificial intelligence, cryptographic authentication and advanced materials? Earlier this year, I asked in a parliamentary question how much the Government were spending on developing quantum computing technologies, one of the existing sectors. I received a garbled response, which talked of

“combined public and private investment through the UK’s ten year National Quantum Technologies Programme”,

without actually answering the question.

The legislation will provide a means of stopping companies being acquired by foreign investors but not of helping them. Indeed, it will not even stop companies relocating. I refer the Minister to the example of PsiQuantum, a world-leading quantum computing company credited with building the world’s first useful quantum computer. Quantum computing is already a relevant enterprise category, and the company was started in Bristol by local academics but relocated to Silicon Valley to access greater support. How will the Minister address such cases?

PsiQuantum and DeepMind exemplify the fact that, although our security concerns might currently be directed towards China, takeovers may come from anywhere in the world. Indeed, many of them have come from the US. The Minister seemed to imply that the legislation would be used only against malicious takeovers and mergers, but does he recognise that many takeovers and mergers are made on purely commercial grounds but may nevertheless have the effect of reducing our capability in a critical national area? DeepMind was one such example. I do not consider Google to have been a malicious actor on that occasion, but perhaps the Minister would like to correct me on that. Does he agree that the measures must not be targeted at one particular country or purely at what are considered to be malicious actors?

Lastly, we ask the Government to commit to a formal review of the order in due course, in order to assess the additional administrative burden on businesses that now fall within its scope and any negative impacts that it has had on foreign direct investment overall. Britain is a world-leading science country, but we do not benefit as we should from the commercialisation of the science. We also need to recognise the strategic as well as the commercial importance of critical new technologies to our national security. Labour welcomes measures to support our national security in mergers and acquisitions.

16:48
Nadhim Zahawi Portrait Nadhim Zahawi
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Let me attempt to address some of the issues raised by the hon. Lady, who is a fellow engineer—we need more of them in Parliament. She rightly asked what will happen after a deal is blocked, and how the Government would intend to support a business that needed liquidity. The first thing to remind the Committee is that the Government have never blocked a deal, although it is important to retain the power to do so, given that some mergers may be such a risk to national security that softer remedies are not possible. It is far more likely, however, that the Government will work with the relevant parties to agree undertakings in lieu of a phase 2 CMA investigation. The UK Government have only ever agreed undertakings and have not yet blocked a deal.

With regard to injecting liquidity and providing urgent liquidity to small and medium-sized businesses by different routes, I hope that the hon. Lady would agree that the coronavirus business interruption loan scheme, the large business interruption loan scheme and the bounce back loan scheme have been truly innovative interventions in the economy to help businesses weather the storm of covid.

The hon. Lady also asked what plans the Government have to expand the concept of the public interest regime. The mergers regime is designed to offer clarity for businesses and build investor confidence, because that confidence makes our economy so dynamic and, as a result, highly regarded the world over. It is based on transparent rules, administered consistently by expert bodies—namely, the Competition and Markets Authority. Our regime restricts Ministers’ ability to intervene to public interest grounds, covering only national security, financial stability, public health emergencies and media plurality, hence why we are making these orders.

Chi Onwurah Portrait Chi Onwurah
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Just to clarify, I was not asking whether they have plans, or suggesting that they should have plans, to expand the regime. I wanted to understand what additional support, outside of the mergers and acquisition regime, would be given to companies that fell under this provision. Having identified these sectors as being key, what other support, apart from in mergers and acquisitions, is being offered?

Nadhim Zahawi Portrait Nadhim Zahawi
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Lady will forgive me if I strayed into areas that she did not ask about—additional transparency is always good for the Committee. She is right to talk about that, but we should look at the Chancellor’s track record. When many companies in these emerging technologies were deliberately loss making, the Chancellor acted immediately with the future fund to bring liquidity to those businesses, matched by their current investors. That fund has been incredibly successful. I remind the House that this Government are committed to raising investment in research and development from £12 billion a year, where it is today, to £22 billion a year by 2024-25. That is a truly ambitious target to invest in emerging technologies.

I will conclude shortly, but first I will respond to a couple more things, including the question about whether the provision chokes off investment for these firms. I do not believe it will, but rather it will allow us to focus more on becoming an innovative knowledge economy in the future.

Chi Onwurah Portrait Chi Onwurah
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Can I remind the Minister about my question regarding the £1 million threshold?

Nadhim Zahawi Portrait Nadhim Zahawi
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I was about to come to that. Forgive me; that was my final response to the hon. Lady. To remind the Committee, the question was about worries about small companies below the £1 million threshold. We currently have a range of powers to ensure that national security remains protected. The lower threshold of £1 million is considered to be an appropriate level of turnover to capture those businesses that, although small, may have a critical role in matters that may affect national security.

I will end by thanking you, Ms Nokes, and the Committee for its consideration of the statutory instrument and its valuable contribution to this important debate. The amendments contained in the SI are essential. Without this SI, the Government would not have the powers we need to protect our national security in the specific enterprise categories outlined in the order. The order is a proportionate amendment to ensure that the Government can scrutinise the most worrying of mergers in three sensitive areas, at an unprecedented time, and I commend it to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

16:54
Committee rose.

Draft Barnsley, Doncaster, Rotherham and Sheffield Combined Authority (Functions and Amendment) Order 2020

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

General Committees
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The Committee consisted of the following Members:
Chair: Ms Nusrat Ghani
† Aiken, Nickie (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)
† Amesbury, Mike (Weaver Vale) (Lab)
† Baynes, Simon (Clwyd South) (Con)
† Bristow, Paul (Peterborough) (Con)
Bryant, Chris (Rhondda) (Lab)
† Cairns, Alun (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
† Clark, Feryal (Enfield North) (Lab)
† Clarke, Mr Simon (Minister of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government)
† Eastwood, Mark (Dewsbury) (Con)
† Elmore, Chris (Ogmore) (Lab)
† Hughes, Eddie (Walsall North) (Con)
† Hunt, Tom (Ipswich) (Con)
† Jarvis, Dan (Barnsley Central) (Lab)
McKinnell, Catherine (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)
McDonagh, Siobhain (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab)
† Mullan, Dr Kieran (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con)
† Richardson, Angela (Guildford) (Con)
Liam Laurence Smyth, Committee Clerk
† attended the Committee
Second Delegated Legislation Committee
Monday 13 July 2020
[Ms Nusrat Ghani in the Chair]
Draft Barnsley, Doncaster, Rotherham and Sheffield Combined Authority (Functions and Amendment) Order 2020
16:30
None Portrait The Chair
- Hansard -

Before we begin, I remind Members about social distancing rules. Spaces available to Members are clearly marked, and unmarked spaces must not be occupied. Hansard colleagues would be grateful if you could send any speaking notes to hansardnotes@parliament.uk.

Simon Clarke Portrait The Minister of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Mr Simon Clarke)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Barnsley, Doncaster, Rotherham and Sheffield Combined Authority (Functions and Amendment) Order 2020.

As a veteran of many such Committee sittings, I can testify that they are not always riveting. However, today’s is of genuine and lasting significance. The draft order, if approved and made, will implement the devolution deal agreed in 2015 between the Government and the Sheffield city region. Since then, the Government have been consistently committed to the deal, which will bring significant benefits to the people of South Yorkshire. In January this year, the South Yorkshire authorities decided that they wished to progress the deal’s implementation. We welcomed that decision and now, following the public consultation undertaken by those authorities, we seek parliamentary approval for the process.

The order confers significant powers on the Mayor and the combined authority as envisaged in the devolution deal. Such powers relate to transport, education, skills and training, housing, regeneration and planning. It also amends certain combined authority governance arrangements to reflect those powers and the role of the Mayor. Most importantly, the making of the order will unlock £30 million of annual investment funding for South Yorkshire for the next 30 years. It will also devolve to the area the £35 million annual adult education budget.

Together, these powers and funding will help the Mayor and local leaders to drive the city region’s economic and social recovery from the covid-19 pandemic. They also represent a significant contribution towards the Government’s commitment to level up our country and transform the growth prospects of communities and the life chances of their residents. With that in mind, I pay warm tribute to the Mayor, the hon. Member for Barnsley Central, for everything he has done to help make today possible. He has been a consistent voice of good sense of co-operation, and we thank him. I also thank local leaders and their councils for all they have done and continue to do to support the area and local people as they face the challenges of the current situation.

If the order is approved and made, it will give effect to the provisions of the devolution deal. The Mayor will have control over a consolidated and devolved transport budget, with the power to pay grants to the four constituent councils in relation to the exercise of their highways functions to improve and maintain roads. The combined authority will take on duties to promote and provide education and training which, with the devolved adult education budget from 2021-22 onwards, can be better aligned to locally determined priorities and to help boost economic growth.

In order to improve the supply and quality of housing, the combined authority will be conferred the land acquisition and disposal powers that Homes England already has. Such powers will be exercised concurrently with those of Homes England, enabling the combined authority, working closely with Homes England, to promote housing policies. The Mayor will also be given the power to establish mayoral development areas, which is a necessary step to establish mayoral development corporations in the future.

The order also provides that the general power of competence, exercisable already by the combined authority, is exercisable by the Mayor. By using that general power of competence, the Mayor will be able to prepare and publish a spatial strategy for the combined authority area, subject to the unanimous consent of the constituent councils and the combined authority.

The order also includes constitutional provisions reflecting the powers conferred and the role of the Mayor. There is provision regarding voting arrangements so that any decision of the combined authority about its new powers conferred through the order must include the Mayor among a majority of members in favour of that decision. The order also provides for the establishment of an independent remuneration panel to recommend the allowances of the Mayor and the deputy Mayor.

If Parliament approves it, the order will be made under the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009, as amended by the Cities and Local Government Devolution Act 2016. As required by the 2016 Act, along with the order we have laid a report that provides details about the public authority functions that we are devolving to the combined authority, some of which are exercisable by the Mayor. The statutory origin of the order is in a governance review and scheme adopted in January 2020 by the combined authority and its four constituent councils, in accordance with the requirements of the 2009 Act. The scheme proposed additional functions to be conferred on the combined authority as envisaged in the devolution deal, and specified those that will be exercised by the Mayor and for certain amendments to governance arrangements.

As provided for by the 2009 Act, the combined authority and the councils consulted on the proposals in their scheme, promoting consultations through regional and local media, social media and posts in public buildings. Responses were accepted through the combined authority website, as well as by letter and email and in hard-copy form. The public consultation ran from 3 February to 15 March 2020, and 675 responses were received. As statute requires, the combined authority provided the Secretary of State with a summary of the responses to the consultation in April. The consultation results show that the proposals are strongly supported by the public and by stakeholders. The seven questions posed in the consultation all received clear majority support, and five received positive public responses of 80% or above.

In laying the draft order before Parliament, the Secretary of State is satisfied that the statutory tests in the 2009 Act are met—namely, that no further consultation is necessary; that conferring the proposed powers would be likely to improve the exercise of statutory functions in the combined authority area; that it would be appropriate, having regard to the need

“to reflect the identities and interests of local communities”

and

“to secure effective and convenient local government”;

and that where the functions are local authority functions, they can be appropriately exercised by the combined authority. As required by statute, the Mayor, the combined authority and the four constituent councils have consented to the making of the order.

In conclusion, the draft order will devolve a range of powers to the Mayor and combined authority for the benefit of the whole of South Yorkshire. It will drive growth, contribute to the city region’s economic recovery and renewal, and help deliver our agenda to level up opportunity and prosperity across the UK. I therefore warmly commend the draft order to the Committee; I hope it is the first of several establishing new mayoralties in the months ahead.

00:05
Mike Amesbury Portrait Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ghani, and a pleasure to speak on the issue of devolution. As an MP who was put into this place to give more power and resources to regions and local communities, it is a special honour to be here today.

Before having the pleasure to represent Weaver Vale, I served as a city councillor in Manchester and worked for the current Mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham. I put together his first-term manifesto—one that he is delivering on and that he will build on. It is fantastic to represent the Opposition on the Front Bench and to assist my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central by playing a small part in this landmark moment, which we share as a Committee. We are all determined—especially my hon. Friend—to get the best deal for the people of South Yorkshire.

As happy as I am for my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central, I have to admit that I am more than a little jealous of him. One half of my constituency benefits from devolution, as it falls in the Liverpool city region authority and the careful hands of the Mayor, Steve Rotheram. The other half, comprising Cheshire West and Chester, does not. I have seen the difference that a combined authority makes to the part of my constituency contained within it. A local power funding accountability making a difference in health, skills, transport, planning, energy, jobs, and, in Barnsley’s case, education, can really transform communities and lives. I want that for the rest of my constituency in the Cheshire and Warrington areas, and I look forward to the long-awaited details from the Minister, who announced several coming down the line.

I have examples of real difference on the ground. The Liverpool Households into Work programme provides one-to-one support—a household approach—to tackle long-standing issues of unemployment to prevent people getting into unemployment and removing barriers over time. This will be more important than ever because of the national and international health, and undoubtedly economic, crisis. The Mersey tidal power project, which it was announced today will be directed by the industry veteran, Martin Land, will provide enough energy for 1 million homes, supply thousands of jobs and contribute towards a net zero target. Expansion of the Merseyrail system will not only provide the public transport that the region deserves but the infrastructure that it needs to—again, I will use the words—level up. This is a genuine example of how we can do that.

In Manchester, we have seen what can happen when devolution has real depth to it. Mayor Andy Burnham’s relentless focus on ending rough sleeping with the A Bed Every Night initiative has had considerable impact, again in partnership with recent Government initiatives around homelessness. Our pass gives young people in education free bus travel so that they can access all that the region has to offer. Bus reform, which is long overdue in Merseyside, the midlands and Greater Manchester, is something that devolution and Mayors can take forward.

Our national situation is very different from what it was at the outset of devolution. The medical and economic impacts of covid-19 have further exposed the urgent need for local decision making, something that I am sure we can all agree on in Committee today. We cannot continue to tolerate the inequality of power driving inequalities of prosperity across the country, especially given the challenges that we now face. This needs to happen through radical change, not by cosmetic tinkering with the Government firmly gripping the power and the purse strings, which results only in delegated authority rather than what we need: local decision making with the funding and power behind it in genuine devolution.

Today, South Yorkshire takes a big step on its devolution journey. May it continue to do so and may others follow closely behind. We await crucial tests of the Government’s commitment to devolution later this year, including the White Paper that the Minister mentioned. However, will he use his time to outline the Government’s timeline for the devolution deals that have as yet to reach the House?

In conclusion, I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Central is eager to get the order through as soon as possible so that he can use the powers and resources to create a locally led pathway to greater prosperity, health and wellbeing for all the citizens of South Yorkshire. I wish the Mayor well in his historic endeavour.

16:44
Dan Jarvis Portrait Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a great pleasure, Ms Ghani, to serve under your chairship. I thank both the Minister and the shadow Minister for their opening remarks. First, I should formally declare a massive interest. As well as having the great privilege to be the Member of Parliament for Barnsley Central, I am also the Mayor of the Sheffield city region, in which capacity I chair the Barnsley, Doncaster, Rotherham and Sheffield combined authority—it is a catchy name—to which the order relates. It is genuinely a little surreal to be here today, but primarily it is a great pleasure to see that this devolution deal has finally become a reality.

As I think the Minister could perhaps have alluded to very politely in his remarks, the road to get to this point has been long and hard. We were the only devolved administration without a full deal in place from the beginning and getting one has taken an enormous effort; I have the scars to prove it. None the less, we have achieved a lot, even without the full tools of this devolution order.

I am grateful to the Minister for his support, and by working with him we have already been able to secure £166 million from the Transforming Cities Fund; we have initiated an innovative Working Win employment programme, which has helped more than 6,000 people with mental and physical health challenges to find work and stay in it; and we have allocated more than £100 million of local growth funding for culture, transport, urban regeneration and flood prevention. This month, again by working with the Minister, we have secured an additional £81 million for infrastructure and housing.

Although those numbers matter—and are, of course, very significant—I think that the greatest achievement is the agreement of a deal and the drawing together of our local authorities and partners through the combined authority, in a way that provides us with the framework to co-operate and drive our region forward for the benefit of all our residents.

Almost 90% of people in South Yorkshire said they wanted to see more devolution, and now that we have it I am absolutely determined that we will seize the opportunity that it presents. Devolution will unlock our local knowledge and our networks; it will bring power closer to the people. It will also help us to reshape both our economy and our society in a way that reflects our values and priorities.

Devolution will help us towards the three great transformations that we need to see: an economic transformation to create not just a bigger economy but a better one, which is more innovative and of higher value; a green transformation to decarbonise our economy urgently, improve our environment and revolutionise our public transport; and a transformation of well-being and inclusion, raising our quality of life, widening opportunity and reducing inequality. It will also help as we struggle, like other parts of the country, not just for recovery from covid but for a renewal that advances the goal of a stronger, greener and fairer South Yorkshire.

We must, however, be clear that, even with this deal, South Yorkshire cannot fulfil these ambitions on its own; devolution will only work if we work together. To fulfil our potential, we must continue to build a culture of co-operation within our combined authority. There are great opportunities for us to work across all of Yorkshire, especially through the Yorkshire Leaders Board, and we need to work across the wider north as a whole, especially on environmental issues and on renewing our transport infrastructure.

We also have to work at the national level with the Government here in Westminster. Perhaps the most important aspect is that we need the Government to work with us to make our vision of transformation a reality. In the short term, we need the Government’s support for the covid renewal action plan that we have developed as a roadmap back from the ravages of the covid pandemic, and in the longer term, we need the Government to fulfil their pledges to level up the country. We must work together to use the public investment that we are able to draw down to boost the economy and finally end the wasting of our potential, benefiting not only South Yorkshire but the whole of the country.

So today marks a very important milestone, but it is not our final destination. Devolution is a process and not an event, and it is not about local and regional government competing against each other for funding pots administered in Whitehall. To realise its promise, devolution must be about the meaningful transfer of power and resources away from Westminster.

The UK is, to our detriment, one of the most centralised developed nations on the planet. We urgently need a deep national conversation on how to restructure and renew our democracy; without it, there is a risk that our country may not survive the currents of division already tearing at it. Today, however, we can and should give thanks for having come this far. I am grateful to everyone who has played their part.

I take this opportunity to place on record my thanks to the Minister for his support and guidance both in his current role and in his previous ministerial role. I also thank all the leaders of our local authorities and pay tribute and offer my profound thanks to the civil servants at the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and those in other Departments, as well as all my team in Sheffield and Barnsley, who have all made this happen.

We should all look forward to the things that we are now able to do which we could not do before, but we should not pause too long before we continue down this road. The greater part of its promise still lies ahead.

16:51
Simon Clarke Portrait Mr Clarke
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It was remiss of me not to pay tribute to you on your first occasion in the Chair, Ms Ghani. It is a great pleasure to be part of this historic first. It is also an historic first for South Yorkshire. I fully join with the Mayor, the hon. Member for Barnsley Central, in what he said about this being a collective, cross-party achievement, which has very much involved local leaders and the civil service, who have been marvellous in negotiating all the various hurdles.

The hon. Member rightly said that devolution is not an end in itself; it is about unlocking the benefits that can flow from it of better and more responsive government. The Government are clearly determined to try to roll out devolution as far as we can across the rest of England, because we are concerned about the increasing asymmetry between those parts of the country that have mayoral devolution and those that do not. It is about not just the absence of a strong, effective voice to champion those areas but the imbalance in funding that flows from that. We are keen to close that gap. The White Paper referred to by the hon. Member for Weaver Vale will come forward this autumn, and it will not lack boldness in setting out our ambition to finish the job we have started and ensure that we end those gaps in the devolution jigsaw.

It is a significant achievement that once the West Yorkshire mayoralty stands up next spring, 63% of the north of England after will be covered by mayoral combined authorities. That is something on which we are hoping to make swift progress. A number of other conversations are ongoing, including with York and North Yorkshire; Cumbria; Lincolnshire—I had meetings with Lincolnshire MP colleagues this afternoon—Hull and East Riding; and Cheshire and Warrington, to which the hon. Member for Weaver Vale referred. A lot of places are starting to come forward, and I will use this opportunity to send a clear message that we are ready and willing to begin those conversations with areas that want to engage with us.

It is clearly important that we do not just look at one tier of governance. The hon. Member for Barnsley Central rightly referred to the Yorkshire Leaders Board and the northern powerhouse. We do not seek to establish hard borders on these new mayoralties. Absolutely, that culture of collaboration needs to expand across wider geographies so that we achieve the maximum possible benefit. We will bring forward important proposals this autumn, and I hope that Members across the Committee will see the value in them. This is an area of considerable policy consensus, and it is about making sure we negotiate the right arrangements for each area. We will certainly be devoted to doing that.

Let us recognise that today is a really good news day for the Sheffield city region. We can all be pleased that we have played our part in helping to make it happen. The Lords process will follow in the next few weeks, so the arrangements will be all in place before summer recess, which is fantastic.

I should address the question asked by the hon. Member for Weaver Vale about the timeline for deals currently in negotiation. We will move at the pace we can, but we are certainly open in principle to the first of those new deals being completed by May 2022, subject to progress in those talks. We would like to see those that we cannot get over the line by that point concluded by May 2023. The objective is to maximise the number of new Mayors, with new unitaries created underneath them, so that we move forward from this period with a reformed local government structure that is better able to help us with our current crisis and, more broadly, the challenges we face as a nation in terms of levelling up and the gaps that we know exist between the wider regions and the greater south-east. We were elected to deliver on that, and we can help to achieve that if we get the right local government structures in place. Today is another stride on that journey.

Question put and agreed to.

16:55
Committee rose.

Draft Competition Appeal Tribunal (Coronavirus) (Recording and Broadcasting) Order 2020

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

General Committees
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The Committee consisted of the following Members:
Chair: † Ms Angela Eagle
Ali, Rushanara (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)
† Baldwin, Harriett (West Worcestershire) (Con)
Butler, Dawn (Brent Central) (Lab)
Byrne, Liam (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)
Cadbury, Ruth (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)
† Carter, Andy (Warrington South) (Con)
† Charalambous, Bambos (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab)
Coutinho, Claire (East Surrey) (Con)
† Cunningham, Alex (Stockton North) (Lab)
† Edwards, Ruth (Rushcliffe) (Con)
Higginbotham, Antony (Burnley) (Con)
† O'Brien, Neil (Harborough) (Con)
† Philp, Chris (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice)
† Pursglove, Tom (Corby) (Con)
† Saxby, Selaine (North Devon) (Con)
† Spencer, Dr Ben (Runnymede and Weybridge) (Con)
Timms, Stephen (East Ham) (Lab)
Ben Street, Committee Clerk
† attended the Committee
Third Delegated Legislation Committee
Monday 13 July 2020
[Ms Angela Eagle in the Chair]
Draft Competition Appeal Tribunal (Coronavirus) (Recording and Broadcasting) Order 2020
16:30
Chris Philp Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Philp)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Competition Appeal Tribunal (Coronavirus) (Recording and Broadcasting) Order 2020.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Eagle, I think for the very first time—the first of many, I hope. The draft order grants the Competition Appeal Tribunal a temporary exception to section 41 of the Criminal Justice Act 1925 and section 9 of the Contempt of Court Act 1981, allowing it to broadcast its hearings to the public either by audio or video link. The exception will apply until March 2022—it is time-limited and subject, as always, to judicial discretion, should the judge have a reason not to allow broadcast.

As I am sure Committee members know, the Competition Appeal Tribunal, more commonly known as the CAT, is a specialist tribunal whose main function is to hear and decide appeals on decisions from the Competition and Markets Authority and some other regulators. As Members are aware, the covid pandemic means that courts and tribunals throughout the country must adhere to public health measures. However, in order to allow justice to be seen to be done, we legislated in the Coronavirus Act 2020 to allow tribunals to conduct hearings via electronic means. However, owing to the speed with which that Act was passed, and because the CAT sits outside the unified tribunal structure, there was an oversight by which the CAT—I apologise, Ms Eagle, I can see your disapproval— was inadvertently omitted from the broadcasting exemption. We are taking the opportunity now to correct that, so that the proceedings of that tribunal can be publicly broadcast until the expiry of the regular Act, which is, as I said, 25 March 2022.

The draft order is relatively uncontentious and simply rectifies an oversight that occurred in the haste with which the Coronavirus Act was prepared three or four months ago.

00:02
Alex Cunningham Portrait Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Thank you very much, Ms Eagle. This is also the first time that I have served under your chairmanship. It will be a brief service on this occasion.

I thank the Minister for summarising the purpose of the statutory instrument, which in the Opposition’s view makes perfect sense and brings the procedures of the Competition Appeal Tribunal—the CAT—into line with other courts and tribunals, and corrects the Government oversight that he mentioned. We support the important provisions contained within the Coronavirus Act 2020 to allow the use of video and audio technology in courts and tribunals. That allowed for cases to be heard remotely, as well as for certain proceedings to be broadcast, and in so doing upheld the vital principle of open justice.

As we know, although those provisions extend to the High Court and other tribunals, they did not extend to the CAT. As a result, CAT proceedings currently take place effectively on a closed basis. If someone wishes to observe the proceedings, they must register their interest with all parties to the proceedings, and that request must then be approved. That is, in effect, an obstacle to open justice.

As a result of that problem, there is a real risk that the legitimacy of proceedings before the CAT could be challenged, on the basis that they have not been conducted in accordance with the rules of the tribunal. That real risk must be avoided, and for that reason, Labour supports the draft order, which will enable the tribunal to continue to carry out its statutory functions in accordance with its own rules, and in public. It is vital that the concept of open justice be defended, and that all proceedings in all courts and tribunals that were available to the public before coronavirus are still open to the public today.

I have, however, a few questions for the Minister. First, how will he ensure that there is full access to justice, with an ability to participate fully for all those involved, and particularly those who take part remotely? Secondly, what plans does he have to monitor the effects of the provisions of the draft order to ensure that they operate as they should and that there are no unintended consequences? Finally, will he update the Committee on the current backlog of work facing the Competition Appeal Tribunal and his plans to deal with it?

00:00
Chris Philp Portrait Chris Philp
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will briefly address those questions. On the issue about justice not being seen to be done, I entirely concur with the shadow Minister, and that is why we moved quickly to approve the draft order today. During the pandemic, four hearings have taken place under the circumstances he described. As he says, people who wished to view those proceedings could apply to the judge to do so, but that is not the best way of doing it. We would rather that proceedings were broadcast openly, which is what will now happen as a consequence of the draft order. The judge will of course oversee how that happens, to make sure that proceedings take place in the right way and that the relevant participants can participate fully. That answers the first question posed by the hon. Gentleman.

We will of course be in close contact with the judiciary to receive feedback from them as they observe how proceedings unfold. However, the use of broadcast in the unified tribunal system and, indeed, of remote hearings more generally, has been a great success in the last few weeks and months. Every day, about 4,000 hearings take place by audio and video across the entire justice system, which is getting on for 10 times higher than the number that were heard before. In fact, that equates to about half of all hearings that happened in person previously, so there has been an enormous move towards audio and video participation. The draft order refers to broadcast, which is different, but I just make that point since the shadow Minister raised it himself.

On the shadow Minister’s final question on the backlog, as he will gather from the fact that only four such hearings have taken place in the last three months, this is a very low-volume tribunal. Not that many decisions are made by the Competition and Markets Authority, so the CAT does not have issues with high caseloads that some parts of the system experience. However, we will of course monitor performance carefully.

More generally, the shadow Minister will have read the courts recovery plan, which was published recently and which aims to get the entire court system—not only tribunals—up and running as quickly as possible, reopening all physical locations by the end of this month and opening 10 brand-new locations as well and exploring the possibility of extended opening hours. I am sure that we share the objective of making sure that justice is done not only openly but rapidly.

Question put and agreed to.

00:02
Committee rose.

Ministerial Correction

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Ministerial Corrections
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Monday 13 July 2020

Defence

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Ministerial Corrections
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Veterans: Covid-19 Support
The following is an extract from Defence questions on Monday 6 July 2020.
Navendu Mishra Portrait Navendu Mishra
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Minister said that the veterans’ gateway app would put veterans’ care in the palm of every veteran in the country. Can he tell us how many people have downloaded and used this app in its first two months?

Johnny Mercer Portrait Johnny Mercer
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I have not formally launched the veterans’ gateway app at the moment. We are going through a process of working with users and so on to make it more user-friendly. That is an ambition of mine: to put veterans’ care in the palm of every single veteran in this country. We will have a formal launch and I would be delighted if the hon. Gentleman came with me to that launch. We can then look at the figures together and perhaps work on getting the app into more people’s pockets as we go.

[Official Report, 6 July 2020, Vol. 678, c. 650.]

Letter of correction from the Minister for Defence People and Veterans, the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer):

An error has been identified in the response I gave to the hon. Member for Stockport (Navendu Mishra).

The correct response should have been:

Johnny Mercer Portrait Johnny Mercer
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I launched the veterans’ gateway app on 1 May. We are going through a process of working with users and so on to make it more user-friendly. That is an ambition of mine: to put veterans’ care in the palm of every single veteran in this country. We will have a formal event and I would be delighted if the hon. Gentleman came with me to that event. We can then look at the figures together and perhaps work on getting the app into more people’s pockets as we go.

The following is an extract from Defence questions on Monday 6 July 2020.

Margaret Greenwood Portrait Margaret Greenwood [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Minister said that the veterans’ gateway app will put veterans’ care in the palm of every veteran in the country. Will he tell us what estimate his Department has made of the number of veterans who do not have a smartphone and what his Department is doing to reach them?

Johnny Mercer Portrait Johnny Mercer
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a completely fair point that many of our veterans are of an age group who will not be digitally able to access this app. The app was never designed to be something that is all encompassing. It is simply another measure in the suite of options that we are offering to veterans in this country to make sure that this is the best country in the world in which to be an armed forces veteran. There is a whole host of other ways of looking after our veterans, such as breakfast clubs that we all get involved in. When this app does come out, I will be looking at ways to make it even more user-friendly, particularly to our older veterans, to whom we owe such a great debt.

[Official Report, 6 July 2020, Vol. 678, c. 651.]

Letter of correction from the Minister for Defence People and Veterans, the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer):

An error has been identified in the response I gave to the hon. Member for Wirral West (Margaret Greenwood).

The correct response should have been:

Johnny Mercer Portrait Johnny Mercer
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a completely fair point that many of our veterans are of an age group who will not be digitally able to access this app. The app was never designed to be something that is all encompassing. It is simply another measure in the suite of options that we are offering to veterans in this country to make sure that this is the best country in the world in which to be an armed forces veteran. There is a whole host of other ways of looking after our veterans, such as breakfast clubs that we all get involved in. Before the app launched we did extensive testing to ensure it was user-friendly, particularly to our older veterans, to whom we owe such a great debt.

Written Statements

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Written Statements
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Monday 13 July 2020

Finance Bill: Legislation Day

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Written Statements
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Jesse Norman Portrait The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Government will introduce the Finance Bill following the next Budget.



In line with the approach to tax policy making set out in the Government’s documents “Tax Policy Making: a new approach”, published in 2010, and “The new Budget timetable and the tax policy making process”, published in 2017, the Government are committed, where possible, to publishing most tax legislation in draft for technical consultation before the legislation is laid before Parliament.



The Government will publish draft clauses for the next Finance Bill, which will largely cover preannounced policy changes, on Tuesday 21 July 2020 along with accompanying explanatory notes, tax information and impact notes, responses to consultations and other supporting documents. All publications will be available on the gov.uk website.

[HCWS356]

Covid-19: Restarting Businesses and Activities

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Written Statements
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Oliver Dowden Portrait The Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Oliver Dowden)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I would like to update the House on the next steps in delivering the UK Government’s covid-19 recovery strategy.

These important steps forward have been made possible by the continued efforts of businesses and the public to comply with covid-19 secure guidelines and clinical advice on testing to protect against resurgences. While there remains a long way to go in tackling this virus, we continue to head in the right direction.

The Business Secretary and I have worked with industry and public health experts to help the remaining sectors and activities to become covid-secure, and reopen as soon as possible.

Following this work, I can confirm that as of 11 July organised outdoor grassroots team sports and participation events are now able to restart, starting with cricket. Team sports will only be able to resume once the relevant sports’ bodies guidance has been reviewed by Public Health England and the Health and Safety Executive.

Outdoor performances with an audience are now able to take place, as of 11 July, subject to social distancing. We will also pilot a number of indoor performances to look at how we can confidently usher socially distanced audiences indoors as soon as possible. Rehearsals and performances for broadcast are already permitted, and dance studios can already reopen for professional dancers and choreographers.

New regulations allow some additional businesses and venues to reopen. This includes outdoor swimming pools and water parks from 11 July; and salons, nail bars, spas, massage parlours, tattoo parlours, and body and skin piercing services from 13 July. Although these businesses and venues are permitted to open, treatments carried out in the highest risk zone, the area directly in front of the face, are advised against at this stage.

The changes outlined above will not apply in Leicester and businesses there will not reopen. This is in line with current easing of restrictions in the rest of the country.

From 25 July, we will allow the safe and covid-secure reopening of indoor swimming pools, gyms, fitness and dance studios, leisure centres, and other indoor sports venues and facilities (as long as the evidence continues to support our doing so). This will be enabled through a separate set of amendments to the regulations.

We must continue to proceed carefully to make sure that there is not a second peak. The changes set out above will be conditional on our ability to control the virus and respond effectively to outbreaks. The Government will measure the effect of changes but will reapply restrictions if that is what the situation requires, as we have had to do in Leicester, and we will work with local councils which have a high prevalence of covid-19 to create guidance reflecting where further business openings could be delayed.

Everybody must play their part in observing and complying with covid-19 secure and social contact guidelines to keep the virus under control and maintain our recovery. Publicly available Government guidance is being published and updated on gov.uk and by sector bodies.

[HCWS357]

Points-based Immigration System

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Written Statements
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Priti Patel Portrait The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Priti Patel)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

In 2016, and again in 2019, the British people voted to take back control of our borders and introduce a new points-based system that will work for the whole of the UK. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill delivers on these votes by ending the automatic right to live and work in the UK for EU migrants from 1 January 2021.



In February I set out the vision for a fairer, firmer, skills-led immigration system. The system will play a key part in our long-term approach to the labour market and in our response to the coronavirus pandemic.



At a time where an increased number of people across the UK are looking for work, the new points-based system will encourage employers to invest in the domestic UK workforce, rather than simply relying on labour from abroad.



But we are also making necessary changes, so it is simpler for employers to attract the best and brightest from around the world to come to the UK to complement the skills we already have.



We know this new immigration system and approach to the labour market will mean changes in the way businesses operate and recruit. Today I am laying before the House a command paper (CP 258) providing further detail on the points-based system, covering the main economic migration routes for those wishing to work or study or set up a business in the UK, to help both employers and applicants prepare and adapt for the changes ahead. Copies will be available from the Vote Office.



It will be simpler for businesses to access the talent they need as we have removed the resident labour market test, lowered the skills and salary threshold, and removed the cap on skilled workers.



The skilled worker route gives employers flexibility by allowing applicants to trade points if they have relevant qualifications or work in a shortage occupation. We have commissioned our independent migration experts to produce a shortage occupation list, so that the Government can work with sectors to fill roles quickly where shortages may occur.



We will be introducing a new-fast track Health and Care visa. This will make it easier and quicker for talented global health professionals to work in our brilliant NHS and in eligible occupations in the social care sector. The visa fee will be reduced and health professionals applying can expect a decision on whether they can work in the UK within just three weeks, following biometric enrolment. We will exempt frontline workers in the health and social care sector and wider health workers from the requirement to pay the immigration health surcharge.



Our Global Talent route launched earlier in the year encourages highly skilled individuals to come to the UK and provides a fast track route for top scientists and researchers.



To ensure our world-leading education sector remains competitive in a changing global market, we are refining the student route and launching a graduate route in summer 2021. The student route will be streamlined for sponsoring institutions and applicants, and the graduate route will help retain the brightest and the best students to contribute to the UK post-study.

Our new system sends a message to the whole world that Britain is open for business, but on our terms.

[HCWS355]

House of Lords

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Monday 13 July 2020
The House met in a Hybrid Sitting.
13:00
Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Birmingham.

Arrangement of Business

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Announcement
13:05
Lord Fowler Portrait The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the Hybrid Sitting will now begin. Some Members are here in the Chamber respecting social distancing and others are participating remotely, but all Members will be treated equally. If the capacity of the Chamber is exceeded, I will immediately adjourn the House. Oral Questions will now commence. I ask that those asking supplementary questions keep them sensibly short and confined to two points, and I ask Ministers for their answers to be brief.

Covid-19: Performing Arts

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Question
13:06
Asked by
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Portrait Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to provide further assistance to performing arts companies and venues which are unable to resume operations due to the restrictions in place to address the Covid-19 pandemic.

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Portrait Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I draw attention to my interests as listed in the register.

Baroness Barran Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the Government recognise how severely the cultural sector has been hit by Covid-19. On 5 July, we announced a £1.57 billion support package for key cultural organisations, to help them through this pandemic. The funding will provide targeted support to organisations across a range of sectors including performing arts, theatres, museums and galleries, heritage sites, live music venues and independent cinema. It will protect cultural assets of international, national and regional importance, and prevent the loss of the valuable cultural fabric from our towns and regions.

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Portrait Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I of course acknowledge with gratitude the scale of last week’s announcement, but there is urgent need for further clarity about whether the new funds will do anything to address the plight of freelance workers, including performers, who make up 70% of the sector’s workforce. Many of them have been unable to access current income support schemes. Further, when will funds start being distributed, and when will there be a plan with dates and sufficient notice to allow theatres and other indoor spaces to reopen in an economically viable way? At this perilous time, speed really is of the essence.

Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I acknowledge that the Covid-19 crisis has presented a particular challenge for freelancers. The package will support cultural institutions, which means the physical and the human fabric of those institutions. The department is working with our arm’s-length bodies to get the funds out as quickly as possible, and the noble Baroness will be aware that stage 3 of the road map has now been reached, meaning that outdoor socially distanced live performances are now possible.

Lord Caine Portrait Lord Caine (Con) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, having raised the plight of small music venues previously, I warmly commend the Government for the unprecedented package of support announced last week, which for many will be the difference between closure and survival. With venue owners now looking forward to planning schedules and reopening, particularly in time for the all-important Christmas period, I follow the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Hudnall, in urging the Minister to do everything possible to ensure that the application process for funds can be expedited as quickly as possible so that support reaches those most in need.

Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My noble friend is right to highlight the importance of bringing back our live music venues as quickly as is safe to do so. We hope that the application process for funding will be open by the end of the month and that funds will start to flow from the autumn, but there is a small amount set aside for those in short-term distress, and obviously, a number of arm’s-length bodies have already been actively distributing funds over the last few months.

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Portrait Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I declare my interests as listed in the register. Of course, the great flagships of our cultural fleet must be protected, but surrounding the main flotilla are many small craft employing freelancers, who, as we have heard, are currently in a perilous financial situation. These smaller vessels address many of the Government’s aspirations in terms of geographic reach, diversity, education and innovation, not least in their instigating vital new work from our composers and writers. Will the Minister push for these criteria to be at the forefront of DCMS and Arts Council deliberations?

Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The department has been very clear about where our priorities lie, in protecting both nationally and internationally recognised institutions and the role of local institutions, particularly in levelling up and economic growth. Hard choices will have to be made, but both those elements are seen as vital within this package.

Baroness Bakewell Portrait Baroness Bakewell (Lab) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, mention has already been made of the national institutions and their international reputations, as well as the spread of small-scale institutions and enterprises around the country and the importance of freelancers in that respect. Going forward, numerous small enterprises are still at risk, so may I suggest that the Government consider underwriting insurance for theatre productions in case they are forced to pause or close?

Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am happy to take the noble Baroness’s suggestion back to the department.

Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury Portrait Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I declare my interests as laid out in the register. Does the Minister accept that, despite the generous and much-appreciated cash injection for the sector announced last week, unless we get the EU-UK deal right post Brexit—and now, post the possibility of an extension—and in particular the right deal on movement of talent and skills, the creative industry faces another crisis and imminently? Are the Government working on a creative freelance visa to maintain access to EU talent and reduce red tape and costs for performers and creatives?

Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The noble Baroness is right that travel and working within the EU have been important for freelancers in many artistic disciplines. I remind her that we have been clear that we are not asking for anything special in relation to freelancers, but to replicate some of the deals that have been struck with other countries.

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Portrait Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, following the Question asked by my noble friend Lady McIntosh, the Minister implied that the funding package recently announced included funding for freelancers but how that is to be done is opaque. Will the Minister write to me setting out precisely the quantum of financial support expected to be available to freelancers in the creative industries and what the take-up has been to date? Will she also set out fully the plan for how freelancers will survive until the full opening of the sector?

Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am always delighted to write to the noble Lord—I feel that I do so at regular intervals, which is entirely appropriate. It is hard to be precise about the specifics of take-up to date on a sector-by-sector basis to see exactly where particularly the self-employed income support scheme has been used, but I can give the noble Lord the data that we have. How it will work will be up to individual institutions to judge in their applications for funding.

Baroness Hooper Portrait Baroness Hooper (Con) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, as co-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Dance Group, I am particularly interested in that sector of the performing arts. However, there has been a lack of clarity about how the welcome government package announced on 5 July applies to the world of dance. It has been suggested, for example, that only professional dancers and choreographers will be allowed to use dance studios. But according to the Prime Minister’s earlier statement on 23 June, they must remain closed. Will my noble friend clarify the extent to which the general rules apply to dance and whether any further guidance is due?

Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My understanding is that the package does include dance companies in particular and touring companies. My noble friend refers to training that I understand is in line with other elite sports, but I am happy to write her to confirm that.

Earl of Clancarty Portrait The Earl of Clancarty (CB) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, even with the funding, this could yet be a disaster for the music sector where 90% of the workforce is self-employed. Will the Government extend the self-employed scheme at least until the end of the year? Otherwise, there is the danger that many talented musicians will leave the industry or go abroad.

Baroness Barran Portrait Baroness Barran
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I beg to differ with the noble Earl that the scheme is a disaster. It has been welcomed widely by the sector and is recognised as the most generous scheme of its type in Europe. I am not aware of any plans to extend the self-employed scheme.

Lord Fowler Portrait The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. We move to the second Oral Question from the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford.

Libya

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Question
15:16
Asked by
Lord Howell of Guildford Portrait Lord Howell of Guildford
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the situation in Libya.

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Portrait The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office and Department for International Development (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, we remain deeply concerned by the conflict in Libya, which continues to threaten stability across the region. The UK is clear that all parties to the conflict and their external backers must de-escalate, commit to a lasting ceasefire and return to UN-led political talks. We welcome recent engagement by the Government of National Accord and the Libyan National Army in the UN-led ceasefire negotiations.

Lord Howell of Guildford Portrait Lord Howell of Guildford (Con) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, in the civil war in Libya, Egypt, our friend the United Arab Emirates and France aligned with the rebel side along with Russia and even some support from Washington, but Turkey and Italy, which are NATO allies, supported the UN-recognised Government of National Accord. Will my noble friend indicate which side we are on, if any, and how we can mediate in this increasingly bloody conflict, given that the Geneva talks have failed to produce any results?

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Portrait Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, Her Majesty’s Government are on the side of peace and political settlement. That is why it is important that both sides get together. My noble friend is right that there are proxies at work on both sides. Therefore, the outcome of the Berlin Conference is what we should focus on. It was held in January and of course the follow-up has been taken up at the UN Security Council. We need to get all sides, including external backers, around the table.

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Portrait Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I declare an interest as I have worked on a government-funded project in Libya over the past two years. To go further, what steps have the Government taken to work with civil society in Libya to try to bring about an end to the conflict? To take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Howell, what conversations have the Government had with those countries which have shown an interest, often for their own gain, in the conflict in Libya?

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Portrait Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
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My Lords, the role of civil society mentioned by the noble Lord is very important and we continue to emphasise its engagement and involvement. Until all sides are firmly around a table, we are some distance away from their effective involvement. Equally, the role of women and particularly women peace mediators is key. The noble Lord asked what we had done so far. We engaged as penholders on the UN Security Council after the Berlin Conference to ensure the passing of Resolution 2510. Most recently, my right honourable friend the Minister for the Middle East took part in the UN Security Council meeting, again emphasising the need for political discussions.

Baroness Uddin Portrait Baroness Uddin [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The UN Secretary-General has called for immediate international attention and described the situation as gloomy. I have been a member of the APPG on Libya for some years and visited Tripoli with the much respected interfaith advocate Dr Zaki Badawi to participate in a conference on African and Arab women. I met highly educated outstanding women leaders of Libya. Over the past decade we have heard nothing about their suffering and that of their families in the persistent battle over oil and resources to which we may have inadvertently contributed. What assessment have our Government made, alongside the international community, of the well-being of civil society and women and their fullest possible participation in the imminent dialogue and future settlement in Libya?

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Portrait Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, it is an inevitable and tragic consequence of any conflict that the most vulnerable communities, including women, specifically suffer. We continue to make the case. I have already alluded to what I believe is the most appropriate form of resolution engaging women in every part of the peace process.

Lord McColl of Dulwich Portrait Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I used to visit Libya regularly to help in the setting up of clinical medical schools in Benghazi and Tripoli, and it was much appreciated. When does the Minister think we should encourage a resumption of these activities? They are in desperate need all over the place.

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Portrait Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
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My Lords, I pay tribute to my noble friend’s work in this area. I would very much welcome a discussion with him to see how best we can make this part of the current discussions.

Lord Purvis of Tweed Portrait Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD) [V]
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In his report to the Security Council last week the UN Secretary-General decried what he termed as high-level direct foreign interference in the conflict which is contrary to the resolution to which the Minister referred. Over the weekend the US and the Libyan national oil corporation criticised foreign capitals for pressure which has led to the reinstatement of the blockade of oil exports. What actions are the Government taking to ensure the resilience of Libyan institutions such as the national bank, the oil corporation and the investment authority so that they can resist this kind of direct foreign interference and provide support for all people in all parts of Libya which is so desperately needed?

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Portrait Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
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My Lords, the noble Lord is right to raise the issue of central banks. Both sides need to get together on the two institutions to ensure equality of approach on that. We deeply regret that the oil blockade has been reimposed on oil facilities and we call on all parties, including those engaging in support of either side, to ensure that oil revenues can start flowing and bring some kind of economic rebuilding to the country.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern Portrait Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con) [V]
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My Lords, to what extent have the Government influence with the various participants directly to persuade them to join the conference that is so greatly needed?

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Portrait Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
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My Lords, we continue to have strong alliances. Turkey is a NATO partner and, as has already been said, the UAE and Egypt continue to be constructive partners and allies to the UK. We will use our influence bilaterally and through multilateral fora.

Viscount Waverley Portrait Viscount Waverley (CB) [V]
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My Lords, what assessment have the Government made of whether Egypt is about to enter the conflict directly and move, possibly with the acquiescence of Russia, in support of Khalifa Haftar? What is HMG’s evaluation of the proximity to UK interests, including NATO operations? What is their strategy and approach?

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Portrait Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
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My Lords, the important thing is that all parties come together, irrespective of which side they appear to be on or have declared their backing for, because this requires support not just from the two parties in-country but from those supporting either side.

Lord Collins of Highbury Portrait Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
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My Lords, at a recent Security Council meeting Stephanie Williams of the UN Support Mission in Libya warned of a massive influx of weaponry, equipment and mercenaries. Can the Minister assure the House that no UK company is indirectly linked to the supply of weaponry and that no UK citizen is involved in the sort of mercenary services provided?

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Portrait Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
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My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that the UN arms embargo on Libya needs to be respected. We take very seriously any reports of breaches of the embargo. They are considered by the UN sanctions committee, of which the UK is a member.

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Portrait Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD) [V]
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My Lords, the Government now have some hundreds of British troops in other parts of the Sahel working closely with the French in combating tribal warfare and Islamic extremism. How far does the conflict in Libya, with the explosion in the number of weapons there, spill over to the rest of the Sahel? Do we share the view of the French and the UAE that the Muslim Brotherhood is promoting extremism which may also spill over into the rest of the Sahel?

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Portrait Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
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My Lords, as the noble Lord knows well, Islamist extremism is a scourge of not just that region but globally, and we should take all the steps necessary to ensure that it does not add to an already very long and bloody conflict in Libya.

Lord Singh of Wimbledon Portrait Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]
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My Lords, members of the ironically named Security Council are attracted to regional conflicts in oil-rich parts of the world, such as Libya, in the name of strategic interests and are selling arms that promote and sustain conflict and horrendous suffering. I know I am going to be told that the UK has one of the strictest arms control policies in the world, but will the Government give a lead to move to a new and less 19th-century view of strategic interest?

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Portrait Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
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My Lords, our intervention in Libya was right because of the humanitarian crisis that was pending in Benghazi. Unlike the noble Lord, I take the view that the UN Security Council does play and will continue to play a very important role.

Baroness Helic Portrait Baroness Helic (Con) [V]
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My Lords, for years the countries of the western Balkans have been major manufacturers of small arms used in Libya with weapons being purchased by foreign Governments, some of them our allies, and supplied to Libya’s warring factions. What steps have the Government taken or will take to stop that flow of arms to Libya? Will they seek to impose UN sanctions and travel bans on those who are in clear breach of the UN arms embargo under UN Security Council Resolution 2510?

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Portrait Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
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My Lords, I assure my noble friend that as penholders on Libya we will continue to make that case. She is right that there have been abuses of the arms embargo in Libya, but I make it clear that all member states must respect international law and call on the Security Council to take seriously any reports of violations. We must act to ensure that those who are not adhering to the embargo do so and respect international law.

Homelessness

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Question
13:27
Asked by
Lord Bird Portrait Lord Bird
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To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that there is no increase in homelessness once the ban on evictions is lifted.

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)
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The Government have provided an unprecedented package of support to protect renters. We have provided income protection schemes and have boosted the welfare system by more than £6.5 billion to prevent people getting into financial hardship. These measures will ensure that those most in need will avoid the risk of homelessness once the stay on possession proceedings ends.

Lord Bird Portrait Lord Bird (CB) [V]
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My Lords, I thank the Minister very much for that encouraging sign. Do the Government know of the Big Issue’s ride out recession alliance, which is bringing players together to help the Government and local authorities so that they can keep people in their homes? If they slip into poverty and homelessness, it is very difficult to get them out of it. I also draw attention to the work of Shelter, which is calling for a change in the law so that magistrates will not authorise eviction if it is caused by Covid-19 poverty.

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh
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The noble Lord is helpful in raising those initiatives by the Big Issue and Shelter. He will be aware that there is ongoing work, through the Master of the Rolls, looking at the guidance on this.

Baroness Blower Portrait Baroness Blower (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, ultimately the way to prevent an increase in homelessness is rent controls and the abolition of no-fault evictions. However, given that Shelter and Crisis have predicted thousands of possible evictions next month, the Government should enable emergency legal provisions to allow judges to prevent evictions where people have complied with reasonable and affordable repayment arrangements or are awaiting decisions on their benefit entitlement. Does the Minister agree? If not, why not?

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh
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The noble Baroness will be aware that I do not agree with the policy of rent controls. It is far more important to follow the guidance and find solutions other than eviction. Our guidance encourages landlords not to seek to repossess their properties during the period where their tenant may be sick or facing hardship due to Covid-19 and to work with their tenant to agree a plan that works for both parties. That is better than the kind of intervention that she suggests.

Baroness Grender Portrait Baroness Grender (LD)
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My Lords, is the Minister aware that, according to the Resolution Foundation, private renters are twice as likely as home owners to have struggled with housing costs due to the pandemic? Why, then, in last week’s financial Statement were home owners awarded a stamp duty tax cut worth £1 billion, in addition to all the other previous measures, while the 20 million renters got nothing?

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh
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I do not agree that renters have received nothing. The noble Baroness will be aware that we have strengthened the welfare safety net with a boost to the welfare system of over £6.5 billion, and that we have increased the local housing allowance rates to cover the lowest 30% of market rents. In addition, a budget of £180 million has been made available for local authorities to distribute in discretionary housing payments.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes Portrait Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con) [V]
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My Lords, did the Minister see the headline in last Friday’s Times:

“City landlords fear for future of offices with trains still empty”?


Would not a practical solution be for people who will possibly be made homeless to have an opportunity to rent this type of office? It would have to be with government approval, but it would help to deal with the panic over what will happen to businesses in the future and it would also help homeless people, at least on an emergency basis.

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh
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I thank my noble friend. She will be aware that over £0.5 billion has been made available to support rough sleepers and get them into longer-term move-on accommodation. We expect local authorities and registered providers to bring forward units of accommodation from a variety of sources, and this could include repurposing buildings such as offices, where appropriate.

Lord Best Portrait Lord Best (CB) [V]
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My Lords, I declare my interests as listed in the register. Has the Minister had a chance to consider the arrangements introduced in Spain to prevent evictions? Tenants with rent arrears caused by Covid-19 are entitled to an interest-free government-guaranteed loan to pay the landlord and remove the grounds for eviction, with the loan being repaid over a six-year period.

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh
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I believe that the noble Lord has raised the Spanish initiative several times. Instead of following that model, our intervention strengthens the welfare safety net, increases the local housing allowance and provides discretionary housing payments to support renters.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
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My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to my relevant interests as listed in the register. The Government deserve credit for quickly getting homeless people off the streets in response to the pandemic. Does the noble Lord agree that a return to a situation where people are sleeping rough on our streets would be tragic and unacceptable, that it must not be allowed to happen, and that it is for the Government to ensure that it does not happen?

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh
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I agree with the noble Lord that the mission should be to ensure that those whom we have taken off the streets and placed in emergency accommodation, of whom there are some 15,000, are moved into settled accommodation as soon as possible and do not return to the streets. That is the mission of the task force led by Dame Louise Casey and, as a Government, we will strain every sinew to achieve that.

Lord Goddard of Stockport Portrait Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD) [V]
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I know that the Minister is fully supportive of local authorities. When Andy Burnham was made Mayor of Greater Manchester, his first pledge was to end homelessness there. What consideration has been given to providing an in-year increase in funding for the Government’s rough sleepers initiative? This would support our local authorities to boost outreach and get people more quickly into safer accommodation. Time and resources are needed to get this multiagency approach right for people with complex needs and to prevent homeless people being back on our streets.

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh
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The noble Lord is right to highlight the importance of multiagency working to tackle homelessness. However, I point to the fact that we have made several announcements in the last two months, including £105 million to support the ending of rough sleeping and, in the previous month, £433 million to provide thousands of additional long-term homes for vulnerable rough sleepers. This money can be used for that endeavour.

Lord Taylor of Warwick Portrait Lord Taylor of Warwick (Non-Afl) [V]
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My Lords, no hero should be homeless. Of 343 local authorities, 252 do not include Armed Forces veterans in their housing strategies. One hundred and seventy-six local authorities fail to even consider the needs of these valiant veterans in their homeless strategy. Indeed, housing allocations for these homeless heroes have declined by nearly 11%. What steps will the Government take to remedy this unjust situation?

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh
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I note the noble Lord’s raising of the issue of support for our Armed Forces and will write to him on the initiatives that we as a Government are taking on that front.

Lord Pickles Portrait Lord Pickles (Con) [V]
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My Lords, given the current uncertainties, would it not make sense to extend the moratorium on evictions beyond September to allow three things to happen: first, for the consequences of the Government’s stimulus to the job market to be felt; secondly, for the amendment to the pre-action protocol overseen by the Master of the Rolls to be delivered and understood; and, finally, to give time to amend housing legislation to allow judges greater discretion with regard to eviction cases? Does my noble friend agree that this action is preferable to introducing measures against a rising tide of evictions in the autumn?

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh
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My noble friend will know that we are exploring a number of options to further protect tenants, including a pre-action protocol for claims for possession by private landlords. This might not be the way to achieve our objective, so our priority is to work with the judicial working group convened by the Master of the Rolls on arrangements, including new rules, that will mean that courts are better able to address the need for appropriate protection of all parties once the stay on possession proceedings ends in August.

Baroness Greengross Portrait Baroness Greengross (CB) [V]
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My Lords, with many office spaces and other commercial buildings remaining empty as people work at home and no doubt continue to do so, at least partly, in the future, will the Government consider ways in which, working with local authorities, these spaces can be refurbished initially as temporary homeless shelters but later be converted into permanent homes for a wider range of people needing housing?

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh
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I refer the noble Baroness to my previous answer. Certainly these buildings could be repurposed where appropriate. We expect local authorities and registered providers to bring forward enough units to deal with the issue of finding longer-term accommodation for the homeless.

Lord Fowler Portrait The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
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My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. We now move to the fourth Oral Question in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Chidgey.

East Africa: Food Security

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Question
13:38
Asked by
Lord Chidgey Portrait Lord Chidgey
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To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of (1) the COVID-19 pandemic, and (2) desert locusts, on food security in countries in east Africa, and in particular in (a) Sudan, and (b) South Sudan.

Baroness Sugg Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office and Department for International Development (Baroness Sugg) (Con)
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My Lords, we are deeply concerned about the food security situation in east Africa. In Sudan, we expect the number of people without access to sufficient food to increase this year by 35% to 9.6 million. In South Sudan, already 6.5 million people suffer acute food insecurity. The UK is working across east Africa to provide life-saving assistance, cash transfers where markets are still functioning, and tools and seeds to build a longer-term ability to respond to shocks.

Lord Chidgey Portrait Lord Chidgey (LD) [V]
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My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that Answer and I welcome the Government’s efforts over the desert locust storms and Covid-19 in east Africa and the Sudans. What UK aid programmes have been cut as a result of moving funding for these urgent projects? The FAO reports that some 19 million people were food insecure in the region last year, so situation is worse than it was 12 months previously. In South Sudan, close to 60% of the population are severely food insecure. Locust swarms present a double crisis for those battling the Covid pandemic, preventing the delivery of locust-control equipment and restricting access to response teams with essential advice and expertise. Will the UK Government commit to maintaining the central purpose of our 0.7% GNI aid programme as ODA compliant to support east Africans with meagre health infrastructure and to ensure access to affordable Covid vaccines, once available?

Baroness Sugg Portrait Baroness Sugg
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My Lords, as the noble Lord said, we are committed to 0.7% of our GNI. That commitment continues, and will continue, to work to end poverty. The noble Lord refers to a process that departments are going through at the moment, given the likely reduction in GNI this year. I am afraid I do not have further information about that process but it will be available in due course.

Lord Bishop of Salisbury Portrait The Lord Bishop of Salisbury [V]
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With the economy of Sudan collapsing and inflation rocketing, the Anglican Archbishop of Khartoum said recently that people would rather die of Covid-19 than of hunger. In South Sudan the Anglican Archbishop of Juba said that mortality rates were already high and, in response to the virus, hygiene and social isolation are difficult—indeed, almost impossible. The diocese of Salisbury has a long-standing partnership with the Anglican churches in those countries and we have launched an emergency appeal this month for at least £50,000 for hygiene and food. What are the British Government doing to support the improvement of hygiene and food in those countries? What does the Minister think we are learning about the motivation for our giving aid to these countries?

Baroness Sugg Portrait Baroness Sugg
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My Lords, I pay tribute to the right reverend Prelate for his fundraising efforts. I talked earlier about 0.7%; while it is wonderful that we spend that much money overseas, given Covid, locusts and flooding, those needs are very great so people need further help. The UK Government will continue to support countries across east Africa, including Sudan and South Sudan. We will ensure that we are providing healthcare, clean water and nutrition where possible.

Lord McInnes of Kilwinning Portrait Lord McInnes of Kilwinning (Con) [V]
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My Lords, given that the UK is a signatory to the Agenda for Humanity’s Grand Bargain initiative, which encourages the use of local and regional NGOs in the delivery of aid, what steps are the Government taking to use local and regional NGOs to deliver food aid in Sudan and South Sudan?

Baroness Sugg Portrait Baroness Sugg
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We continue to work to improve the effectiveness of the international humanitarian system. In the time of Covid-19, that is more important than ever. The UK is the largest donor to the UN’s Sudan humanitarian pooled fund, which aims to advance the Grand Bargain commitments that my noble friend referred to. That works by providing direct funding to national NGOs, as well as building the capacity of local partners to strengthen programmes and deliver results.

Baroness Hayman Portrait Baroness Hayman (CB) [V]
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My Lords, I declare my interest as a trustee of the Disasters Emergency Committee. That committee is launching a coronavirus appeal tomorrow to protect refugees and displaced people in some of the world’s most vulnerable countries, including South Sudan, Yemen and Syria. Given the devastating consequences of the virus for those already desperately vulnerable people, will the Government encourage the public to give generously to that appeal by doing so themselves in the form of aid matching?

Baroness Sugg Portrait Baroness Sugg
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I thank the noble Baroness for highlighting the Disasters Emergency Committee appeal. We will be supporting that appeal; I think we will be making an announcement on it tomorrow. The noble Baroness also referred to support for refugees and internally displaced people. Today we are making an announcement that we are supporting 5,500 teachers to ensure that refugees, over half of whom are young people, will be able to continue their education throughout the crisis.

Baroness Goudie Portrait Baroness Goudie (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, the situation in Sudan is so awful that one can hardly imagine it. Women play a crucial role with vulnerable people in the global food system as producers and workers and at processing plants. In the present situation, it is almost impossible to buy food. We have to think about how the right and proper nutritional food is available and can be bought and consumed or given as aid. We know the importance of the right nutrition from gestation for the mother and for the child during the growth of the brain, the lungs and the body, and none of this can wait until later. It is important that there is a proper diet. I want to know how we can ensure that food is getting directly to mothers and children on the ground. We must look at the metrics through a gender lens.

Baroness Sugg Portrait Baroness Sugg
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The noble Baroness refers to the situation of women in Sudan. We welcome some of the recent reforms that will support women in Sudan. Gender inequality of course plays a significant role in food security and the nutrition status of individuals. Entrenched sociocultural norms and practices are placing women and girls at greater risk. We are working with the World Food Programme and others to ensure that we are targeting vulnerable groups, including women and girls, as the response continues and as we help to increase food productivity and the diversification of crops and livestock for women farmers.

Lord Oates Portrait Lord Oates (LD) [V]
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Does the Minister agree that growing food insecurity in Ethiopia, compounded by Covid-19 and the ongoing locust infestation, is placing further strain on an already fragile political situation? What support are the Government providing to relieve these added pressures and to help ensure that Prime Minister Abiy’s reform process is successful?

Baroness Sugg Portrait Baroness Sugg
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I agree with the noble Lord that the humanitarian context in Ethiopia is increasingly complex and of concern. The UK supports a safety-net programme to deliver food and small cash transfers to 8 million people in Ethiopia, and we continue to support the welcome reforms, which include supporting the independent electoral board, organised free and fair elections, and the consultations with civil society and media. We are reviewing the impact of the recent political insecurity on these reforms.

Baroness Verma Portrait Baroness Verma (Con) [V]
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My Lords, the pandemic will have multiplied the challenges that the poorest are facing in the least developed countries. Reducing or cancelling debt is only part of the solution. Will my noble friend ensure that the processes for businesses that wish to go and operate in those developing nations are streamlined by the Government, which would benefit not just those countries but our country as well?

Baroness Sugg Portrait Baroness Sugg
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My noble friend referred to debt relief. Of course, the UK—together with other G20 countries—suspended debt service payments, making up to £12 billion of additional fiscal space. I agree with my noble friend that we must support UK businesses in investing in developing countries, and we are doing that through our work with UK Export Finance and the CDC, our development finance institution. I agree that we must do more to streamline the process.

Lord Reid of Cardowan Portrait Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, the United Nations World Food Programme acute food insecurity and malnutrition forecast for this year confirms the terrible figures that the Minister gave in her Answer. Sudan alone will have up to 9 million people facing food insecurity this year as that insecurity worsens after the coronavirus epidemic. That is a potential famine of biblical proportions. Have the Government had any discussions with the UN in respect of that report? If so, what action ensued from those discussions?

Baroness Sugg Portrait Baroness Sugg
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Existing humanitarian disasters and conflicts are going to be exacerbated by the impact of Covid-19. We are working hard to urgently redirect programmes right across Africa to respond to these compound risks. We will be working through our country programming and multilateral responses, as well as through the World Food Programme.

Earl of Sandwich Portrait The Earl of Sandwich (CB) [V]
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My Lords, can the Minister confirm that the combined departments of the FCO and DfID will now provide added value to UK humanitarian work in the Sudans, and to good governance? Can she report on any progress with conflict prevention in the south?

Baroness Sugg Portrait Baroness Sugg
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DfID and the FCO already have a joint Sudans unit covering both Sudan and South Sudan. That work will continue and, as the noble Earl says, with the new department we will be able to ensure that we use both our diplomatic and development expertise to the highest effect.

Lord Fowler Portrait The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
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My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

13:49
Sitting suspended.

Arrangement of Business

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Announcement
14:01
Lord Lexden Portrait The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)
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My Lords, proceedings will now commence. Some Members are here in the Chamber, others are participating virtually, but all Members are treated equally. For Members participating remotely, microphones will unmute shortly before they are to speak—please accept any on-screen prompt to unmute. Microphones will be muted after each speech. If the capacity of the Chamber is exceeded, I will immediately adjourn the House. I ask noble Lords to be patient if there are any short delays as we switch between physical and remote participants. The usual rules and courtesies in debate apply, and I ask that questions and answers are brief.

EU Coronavirus Vaccine Programme

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Private Notice Question
14:02
Asked by
Baroness Thornton Portrait Baroness Thornton
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To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the United Kingdom will participate in the European Union coronavirus vaccine programme.

Lord Callanan Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)
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My Lords, we have had constructive discussions with the EU on this scheme. We have decided not to join since we would not have a say in running it and would not be able to pursue our own negotiations. We will instead continue our own ambitious programme to secure a successful vaccine for the UK public as soon as possible and build collaboration with the EU outside of this framework.

Baroness Thornton Portrait Baroness Thornton (Lab)
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I thank the Minister for that Answer. I think the noble Lord would not be surprised if some anxiety was not expressed about this issue, for two reasons. First, the Government have form in this pandemic by refusing to take part in the European procurement programme to buy PPE, for example, for which we have paid a price. Secondly, the Health Secretary has said that the Government have rejected the offer to join the EU scheme because they did not want to disrupt the UK vaccines programme, which one understands, and we have secured two deals with

“the two most developed candidates in the world”.

Does the Minister share my concern that the Government may be putting all our vaccine procurement eggs into two baskets? If these two candidates are unsuccessful, what options will be available to the UK, given the aggressive procurement efforts of the United States, China and other countries? What does the Minister think the UK’s role should be in what is turning into a vaccine nationalism—a sort of arms race—with significant worldwide political, economic and public health implications?

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan
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I understand the noble Baroness’s reservations and she makes some good points, but the important point about this scheme is that we would not have been able to take part in the governance of it or as part of the negotiation team. We would have had no say in which vaccines to procure and at what price, in what quantity and for what delivery schedule. We could therefore not have been confident that the scheme would deliver for UK needs. Crucially, we would not have been able to negotiate with a company that the EU is negotiating with in parallel. For all these reasons, we took the decision not to participate. We do not rule out participating in future procurement programmes, and the noble Baroness makes a good point about the nationalisation, as it were, of some countries. We will continue to pursue international collaboration, and we have a number of schemes in which we will continue to take part.

Lord Triesman Portrait Lord Triesman (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, I have read what the Government have written to the European Commission saying that involvement with the EU Covid-19 vaccine programme means we would be unable to pursue parallel negotiations with other potential vaccine suppliers. That has come as an astonishing surprise to most of the biopharma industry and it is plainly away from the truth. It is very much like the mistakes that have been made on testing and tracing, and it places the United Kingdom way behind the science curve. Would the Minister agree that, the more vaccines that are created and tested from reliable research, including the EU programme, the more likely it is that a successful research outcome will take place, the more trustworthy the research protocols will be and the more exhaustive the vaccine programme will be in getting a vaccine to people as fast as possible? Would he also agree that ideology must never, in any circumstances, trump the science?

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan
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I am afraid the noble Lord is wrong on his first point, but on his supplementary points I can agree with him. I can confirm that we are supporting a number of different research platforms and vaccine technologies, both through our discussions with companies and through our global efforts, alongside helping to fund research on a vaccine at Oxford University with the help of AstraZeneca. We have committed £250 million of UK aid to the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations, an organisation that is working on a global scale to develop a Covid-19 vaccine.

Baroness Brinton Portrait Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]
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In April, the World Health Organization said that countries must work together to develop a number of Covid-19 vaccines that have concluded successful clinical trials and demonstrate that they can manufacture many millions of doses faster than ever achieved before—none of which is a given. The UK was a signatory to the following World Health Organization declaration:

“We will continue efforts to strengthen the unprecedented worldwide collaboration, cooperation … and we will work tenaciously to increase the likelihood that one or more safe … vaccines will soon be made available to all.”


On this basis, why are the UK Government still refusing to collaborate with the EU vaccine scheme?

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan
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I did not catch all of that question; the audio was a bit poor. If the noble Baroness is saying that we should continue to co-operate on an international level, I would completely agree with her. I set out earlier the reasons why we did not think it was right to participate in this particular EU initiative, but we do not rule out participating in other EU procurement initiatives and we are in discussions on how we might do that.

Baroness Noakes Portrait Baroness Noakes (Con)
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My Lords, has my noble friend seen the comments of Oxford’s Regius Professor John Bell, who said that the Government’s decision was “sensible”, that the UK has

“a very, very coherent and good vaccine plan”

and that the UK is

“way ahead of Europe in the way we think about vaccines”?

Does he agree that if there is a loser from the UK opting out of the EU plan, it is the EU and not the UK?

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan
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I had not seen the comments that my noble friend refers to, but I agree with them. We do have a number of promising vaccine production methods going on. However, if there are future international collaborations, either with the EU or with other international partners, then we rule nothing out because we need to work together to find an appropriate vaccine.

Lord Kilclooney Portrait Lord Kilclooney (CB)
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My Lords, since Brexit, which I supported, the United Kingdom has withdrawn from the Galileo satellite project, the Erasmus university programme and now the European vaccine programme. Can the Minister please confirm that, in the context of co-operation, we look forward to much co-operation with our European neighbours?

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan
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Yes, I agree with the noble Lord. Whilst we have decided not to participate in this particular initiative, we are committed to strengthening our collaboration with the EU and international partners on vaccines outside this framework. I assure the noble Lord that we will indeed continue to work with our European partners in other areas of mutual interest.

Lord Campbell-Savours Portrait Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, notwithstanding any agreements we could have made with the European Union on vaccine development, what happens if the Chinese get there first with their Sinovac Biotech product or even another Chinese product? Can we have an absolute assurance that we will reject any pressure, trade threat or anything whatsoever from the Trump Administration or any other American Administration to boycott a Chinese product?

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan
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The noble Lord asks a number of hypothetical questions. All I can say is that we will continue to collaborate internationally both in the EU and across the world on vaccine development. It is something that we all have a stake in, and we all need to work together to achieve it.

Lord Taylor of Goss Moor Portrait Lord Taylor of Goss Moor (LD) [V]
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My Lords, Wellcome’s head of global policy has described the EU policy as “morally right” because it ensures that the priority will be to spread the use and availability of vaccine across all countries according to need, treating those at the highest risk first. If the Government are not to be part of the EU scheme, will they at least commit to ensuring that vaccine is available to all, across borders, by priority and that they will not simply prioritise UK people? The coronavirus is not a respecter of international borders.

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan
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The Prime Minister has already said exactly that. Of course, we want to collaborate internationally; of course, the virus is affecting virtually every country in the world. We have to work across borders, and the vaccine should go to those who need it most.

Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford Portrait Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I understand that the Commission’s vaccine programme has yet to complete a deal, while the Inclusive Vaccines Alliance, led by Germany, France, Italy and the Netherlands, has closed an non-exclusive deal with AstraZeneca for 400 million doses at cost. The IVA states that its mission is to enable rapid action on vaccine procurement to create added value for European nations and beyond. On this evidence, the IVA may be a more effective vehicle than the official Commission programme. Have the Government had any discussions with the IVA on collaboration and, if not, will the Minister undertake to do so?

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan
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I can confirm to my noble friend that we have had discussions with many countries, including those who formed the Inclusive Vaccines Alliance. It is our understanding that the alliance members have now joined the EU procurement initiative, with commercial negotiations being taken forward under that framework. However, as I have said, we will continue to work with the EU and other international partners on development.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Portrait Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, the Minister has been keen to acknowledge the benefit of international collaboration. If a number of vaccines are successfully produced, one of the great challenges we face is that a significant proportion of people will not take them. Will he at least talk to the EU about collaborating on a European-wide effort to encourage our populations to take up the vaccine?

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan
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We are having a number of discussions with the EU on a whole range of initiatives. As I said, we decided not to take part in this scheme for specific reasons, but we do not rule out any future collaboration or co-operation with the EU.

Baroness Falkner of Margravine Portrait Baroness Falkner of Margravine (Non-Afl) [V]
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My Lords, in this decision, the United Kingdom has made the right call, given that, like the UK, Germany, France, the Netherlands and Italy have moved to make their own provision prior to the European Commission initiating action. Given that we pay into the multiannual financial framework until the end of 2020, why were we not permitted to be part of the governance and negotiation? Is that likely to happen if there are future projects? If so, it would be understandable if we went our own way.

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan
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Other EU member states would have been able to take part in the governance of the scheme; we would not. Even though the main development is funded from the EU budget, any individual procurement or orders would come from national budgets. Crucially, we would not have been able to negotiate in parallel with other companies with which we already have a good working relationship.

Baroness Bull Portrait Baroness Bull (CB) [V]
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My Lords, new research from King’s College London, in which I declare my interest as an employee, suggests that immunity from Covid-19 may last just a few months, indicating that mass, or herd, immunity from the disease is not an effective strategy, that vaccination boosters may be required, and that any cavalier approach to infection on the basis that one might as well get it in order to acquire the protection of immunity is woefully misguided. What assessment have the Government made of the impact of these findings on their vaccination strategy and their approach to vaccine development?

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan
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The Vaccine Taskforce is of course considering all the academic work being done in this field; it is a rapidly developing sphere of science. I am sure that we welcome the work taking place at the institution mentioned by the noble Baroness, but a lot of other research institutes are already looking into it. There are a number of developing vaccine forms which require different manufacturing processes to produce individual vaccines, and we are of course evaluating all of them.

Lord Lexden Portrait The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)
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Viscount Waverley. No? No connection, I think. I call the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs.

Lord Dobbs Portrait Lord Dobbs (Con) [V]
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My Lords, there have been some pretty knee-jerk reactions to this announcement. Can the Minister confirm that this decision is not about being against co-operation—far from it; it is precisely what Brexit and a new policy are about: a new relationship based on co-operation? However, does my noble friend agree that in this crucial step in our battle against the virus it would be entirely inappropriate to hand over decisions about costs, timing and distribution, and even rationing if it came to that, to a European Commission on which there is not a single British voice?

Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan
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My noble friend makes a good point, but this was an individual decision about this particular programme, which we did not think was well suited to UK needs. We would not have been able to take part in the governance of the scheme or be part of the negotiating team. We would have had no say on what vaccines were procured nor on their price, quantity or delivery schedule, nor even on whether they would be made available to people in this country. It was a pragmatic decision on this particular scheme, but we do not rule out future co-operation with the EU on other schemes.

14:17
Sitting suspended.

Arrangement of Business

Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text
Announcement
14:41
Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Portrait The Deputy Speaker (Lord McNicol of West Kilbride) (Lab)
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My Lords, a limited number of Members are here in the Chamber, respecting social distancing. If the capacity of the Chamber is exceeded, I will immediately adjourn the House. Other Members will participate remotely, but all Members will be treated equally wherever they are. For Members participating remotely, microphones will unmute shortly before they are to speak—please accept any on-screen prompt to unmute. I ask noble Lords to be patient if there are any short delays as we switch between physical and remote participants. I should remind the House that our normal courtesies in debate still very much apply in this new hybrid way of working.

A participants’ list for today’s proceedings has been published and is in my brief, which Members should have received. I also have lists of Members who have put their names to amendments in, or expressed an interest in speaking on, each group. I will call Members to speak in the order listed. Interventions during speeches or before the noble Lord or noble Baroness sits down are not permitted and uncalled speakers will not be heard.

During the debate on each group, I will invite Members, including Members in the Chamber, to email the clerk if they wish to speak after the Minister. I will call Members to speak in order of request and will call the Minister to reply each time. The groupings are binding, and it will not be possible to degroup an amendment for separate debate. A Member intending to press an amendment already debated to a Division should have given notice in the debate. Leave should be given to withdraw amendments. When putting the Question, I will collect voices in the Chamber only. If a Member taking part remotely intends to trigger a Division, they should make this clear when speaking on the group.

Business and Planning Bill

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Business and Planning Act 2020 View all Business and Planning Act 2020 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 119-I Marshalled list for Committee - (8 Jul 2020)
Committee (1st Day)
14:44
Relevant documents: 17th Report from the Delegated Powers Committee, 9th Report from the Constitution Committee
Clause 1: Pavement licences
Amendment 1
Moved by
1: Clause 1, page 1, line 7, at end insert “, except that no application may be made in respect of premises that fall within a cumulative impact zone.”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment seeks to stop premises in cumulative impact zones, which are areas already identified as contributing to community problems because of alcohol availability, from benefiting from this easing of restrictions.
Lord Balfe Portrait Lord Balfe (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I also intend to speak to Amendments 3 and 11 in my name.

This Bill demonstrates exactly why we need to get back to work as a House of Lords. Some 70 Members will speak in different parts of this Committee stage and there is a large number of amendments to what is a highly contentious Bill. This weekend, the Government said that we should go back to work; perhaps we should start by setting an example and getting the House of Lords back to work.

Before I get to the meat of this, I note that Labour is not supporting any Divisions so we will probably have a Division-free day. However, many items in the Bill deserve considerably closer scrutiny. I hope that, before it comes back next week, there will be considerable concessions from the Government; otherwise, I fear that there will be Divisions. Looking at recent history, the Government are not on a great winning streak there.

By way of background, Amendment 1 seeks to provide that premises in an exclusion zone cannot benefit from the provisions of the Bill. Exclusion cumulative impact zones, as they are called, were introduced in the Blair/Brown years after the Government introduced in the early part of this century a number of changes to the licensing laws, which they felt would help to bring about a café economy. Well, they did not; they brought about absolute chaos.

My wife spent four years on Forest Heath District Council, a rural council up here in East Anglia. For most of that time, she and her Labour and Liberal fellow councillors were involved in trying to get a cumulative impact zone imposed on a town called Newmarket, where we were living at the time. The fact of the matter is that the licensing laws were relaxed to such an extent that they caused enormous problems.

They still do. In the town of Cambridge, where I have lived for a good number of years, there is a cumulative impact zone on Mill Road. We have plenty of experience of the problems that excessive alcohol licences can lead to. There are more than 50 licensed premises in the Mill Road area. We have gone to considerable effort to get alcohol licences either in place or extended. Only a couple of weeks ago, we had an application from Brothers Supermarket. It wanted a licence to sell alcohol from 8 am to 11.30 pm. The person representing it knew all the legal arguments—indeed, they were a good advocate—but it was next door to another premises called Nip-In, where you could nip in at any point and buy alcohol. The problem was that, when this application went forward, it had 76 objections to it and not a single person sent in a representation in its favour because it was widely recognised not that there was anything wrong with Brothers Supermarket but that the area was totally swamped by alcohol licensing.

This Bill seeks to make that even easier, which is why I have tabled this amendment. Where there is a cumulative impact zone, it is clearly already in place and it demonstrates that there are severe problems with alcohol. You do not get a zone declared unless the police are on your side and there is fairly unanimous support from the council. That was the case here. Not only did no one support it; the police were against it and representatives of all three political parties sent in statements opposing this particular licence. After a three-hour hearing, it was rejected.

This Bill seeks to get things decided within seven days. How on earth is that to be done if multiple applications have to be dealt with? It is quite likely that there will be. I seem to remember that the Blair/Jowell Bill was also enacted in August and local authorities were caught off their guard.

I know that the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and several other noble Lords are vice-presidents of the Local Government Association. I am not and I have not had anything to do with local government since I left the Greater London Council in 1977, so to put it mildly, I am a bit out of date. What I would like to hear in this debate is an explanation of how the LGA proposes to handle this vis-à-vis its councils. The cumulative impact zone is just one of the problems, but there are others, all of which are highlighted here. A second one that I draw attention to in my Amendment 11 is to ask whether the police will be consulted because, at the moment, the Bill does not say that they should be. That is why the amendment seeks to add after “local persons” the words

“including the local police force”.

Surely the police have a vested interest in whether or not order can be maintained, and they should be consulted.

In Amendment 3 I refer to locked-down premises. In our area, and I dare say in the rest of the country, we have had two very different experiences of the period of lockdown. I have already mentioned the licensed premises close to our house, but there are some premises, one called 5 Blends Coffee House and the other Tom’s Cakes, which were locked down for the whole period. Obviously, they need to get back into business again but some of the other ones do not, and, as will become clear in the debate, there are problems with pavements as well as other issues. The 5 Blends Coffee House has room for tables outside because it is on a corner, but Tom’s Cakes, because of the street furniture, has no room, although it does have a garden at the back, which presumably can be used without permission. Further up the road is a health food shop called Arjuna Wholefoods, which has a licence and enough room outside to set up tables. I do not think that the owners will do so, but if they did wish to set up those tables and serve glasses of wine to their customers, that would only add to the problems in the area.

What I am asking the Minister and the Government to do is to agree to take a much closer look at this and, particularly where there are cumulative impact zones, to say, “Right, a problem with alcohol has already been identified in the area and that should be enough for it not to be exacerbated by making it even easier to extend licensing facilities and thus make it easier to buy alcohol.” I also do not think that it is unreasonable to ask that the police should be consulted, and when we consider locked-down premises, is there any reason why the Sainsbury’s shop in Mill Road should not be allowed to open an off licence on the pavement, given that it has a licence to sell alcohol? I do not think that it would wish to open an alcohol vending service, but what if it did? The shop has been open throughout the lockdown and, if anything, its trade has gone up because more people have been tending to shop locally. There is a need to distinguish between a firm that sells alcohol which has been open for the whole time and one that has not. With those words, I beg to move.

Lord Holmes of Richmond Portrait Lord Holmes of Richmond (Non-Afl) [V]
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My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow my noble friend Lord Balfe on his interesting and in-depth trip down Mill Road. That brings back all kinds of memories from being a student at Cambridge. I will speak briefly, but I ask my noble friend the Minister to address all my points in detail when she sums up the debate because that may be the most expeditious way of resolving them. I shall speak to Amendments 36, 37, 40 and 43 in my name, and I thank other noble Lords who have put their names to them and have agreed to speak.

These amendments all have a clear purpose, one that I believe is in line with the purpose of the Bill, which is to get the economy moving again. We should have done this earlier and we could have done so, but we are doing it now and that is a good thing. I have a few issues with this part of the Bill, where I believe that we could improve the outcome for businesses, for individuals and for society.

The amendments address the position of small independent breweries which find themselves shut out of the provisions of the Bill—and thus the economic restart—as currently drafted. The amendments seek to enable small independent breweries to sell alcohol directly to the public for a temporary period in a safe and measured way that is in line with the other temporary measures being put in place for other sectors of the economy. In the circumstances, I believe that this would be both proportionate and low in risk. It could be done by using the normal licensing procedure in these circumstances and for this to be seen as a minor variation, as set out in Amendment 40.

Similarly, Amendment 43 seeks to allow the use of temporary event notices. Increasing the number of these notices would give the local authority even more control over the situation because it will issue them to businesses that have already been issued with them. There will be a track record and the authority will have a knowledge and understanding of how those businesses operate. That would not be a shot in the dark because HMRC knows these businesses. They will be on the system and they will have passed the fit and proper person test. The notices would be for a temporary period to enable small independent breweries to get back into business rather than potentially going to the wall or, indeed, needing to come cap in hand to the Government. This would resolve those issues.

There is also an important secondary benefit in having more venues open: patrons would be more able to observe social distancing because there will be more places to go to have a drink. Moreover, small independent breweries are not often located in residential areas or in zones such as those described by my noble friend Lord Balfe. It makes sense to spread people out so that they can go out for a drink safely and thus help start up the economy again.

As I have said, I hope that my noble friend the Minister can address all of the specifics raised in Amendments 36, 37, 40 and 43. I look forward to her response and to hearing the comments of other noble Lords.

Lord Addington Portrait Lord Addington (LD)
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My Lords, I shall confine my comments predominantly to Amendment 38, which stands in my name. It is an attempt to bring sports clubs and other similar concerns with licences into line with the rest of the off-sales from the licensed premises sector.

We spoke about this at Second Reading and the Minister, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, said in his usual disarming way, “Oh, don’t worry. You can get a licence or special arrangements can be made.” We are talking here about a short-term move that may last for two or three months. If sports clubs need to get a licence every time they require one, a fast-track system for doing so is needed or they will miss out on many opportunities. Those opportunities are important because sports and other clubs need their bar revenues to continue to function; it is that simple. The model for a sport such as cricket is that the bar is part of how the club ensures that it can maintain the ground, maintain kit and run the juniors programmes. That is why we want this provision in the Bill—we want these clubs to operate on similar terms to those of other businesses.

If there is a way around this that we have not come across before, that is great. It is not about doctrinaire issues but is purely practical. If there is another way of dealing with this, let us hear about it—but if we do not get this and have to have a process of licensing down there, people will miss out. I appreciate that the Government have to act fast with the difference in the two licensing applications, but can we have a practical solution to this? That is all I am really asking for.

We have other stages to go through on this Bill. If we can find one that works, I will be happy and the people who have been nudging me forward will be happy—at least, I hope so—but we need to make sure it is dealt with. The bars of clubs are important to their function, and their function is generally regarded as a public good. Surely putting them on the same terms for one or two days a week as a pub or anywhere else selling alcohol will not damage society greatly, and indeed may improve it.

15:00
Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con) [V]
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I will speak to Amendment 44 on digital age verification and thank my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones for his support. I raised this at Second Reading and thank my noble friend the Deputy Leader for his courteous and timely letter. I am especially grateful to him and the Minister for Crime and Policing at the Home Office for publishing on GOV.UK the government response to the call for evidence on violence and abuse toward shop staff. That certainly helps to put discussions today into perspective. I am glad to hear that the Minister for Crime will work with business, the police and other partners to tackle this serious issue, including underreporting. I know the British Retail Consortium is disappointed about some aspects of the government response, but that is for another day.

Today is about emergency measures to deal with life under Covid-19, and they are all most welcome. As my noble friend Lord Holmes said, we need to get the economy motoring again. That includes measures that encourage business to revive and grow, as his amendments have proposed. In that context, I remain concerned about the absence of digital age estimation and verification for sale of alcohol. Our amendment enables the use of such verification, provided that the licensed seller in a shop or pub takes reasonable precautions and applies due diligence to ensure the purchaser is over 18.

The obvious example is the Yoti app used in a number of European countries, such as Estonia— a real digital leader—and some parts of the UK. It means there is no need to show paper ID and wash your hands or resanitise—or perhaps not—or to remove a mask to engage in a physical conversation and a physical check of the customer’s ID. It works brilliantly at automatic checkouts, as their videos show, and would help to speed up queues in pubs and elsewhere. Other apps will no doubt be developed, making the technology more widely available. Interestingly, I see from the Yoti website that NHS England and NHS Improvement have begun deploying a secure digital ID card from Yoti to put employees’ NHS ID cards on to their phones. The killer argument for this Business and Planning Bill is that this system is already in use in shops to verify sales of knives—arguably much more dangerous than drink—and other age-restricted products such as tobacco, lottery tickets and fireworks.

It has been argued that we cannot introduce a digital system for alcohol outside the Proof of Age Standards Scheme—PASS—which is being developed for card issuers. However, that has got bogged down and delayed by Covid and is not producing the solution required when it is so desperately needed. It is of great significance that the British Retail Consortium, which set up PASS, no longer has faith in it. It rightly believes that no scheme should be skewed to a particular interest group.

Ours is an open amendment that overnight would improve things hugely and allow more enforcement of the drinking rules than I believe is taking place at present. A sunset clause can be included allowing the opportunity to simply trial these new app-based methods, at the same time avoiding the need for young people to carry passes—and lose them, as they often do. I hope my noble friend the Minister will look favourably at this amendment and be open to agreeing a simple enabling provision before Report.

Lord Berkeley Portrait Lord Berkeley (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 36, 39, 40 and 43, to which I have added my name. I fully support what the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, said in his introduction and will not preface what my noble friend Lord Kennedy of Southwark may say when he introduces his amendment later. While supporting and fully agreeing with the view of the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, that we should all get back to work in the Chamber, I do not really agree that the increased number of outlets will improve the environment of Cambridge. You could then argue that we had better get back to prohibition days, and I do not think anybody wants that.

My amendments are intended to increase the choice of products and balance the smaller number that can be inside a pub or restaurant with more space outside. I commend the Government on allowing many outlets to put more space on the pavements or even roads and increase the space for cycling at the expense of polluting cars. The amendments would also allow a greater choice of suppliers, which I think is important.

My interest is encouraging small brewers and limiting the bullying tactics we have seen over the years from the pubcos, which are very much to the detriment of the small landlord. As the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, said, small brewers have lost a large proportion of their trade during the Covid lockdown, and 65% of breweries have apparently been mothballed because they could not sell their product direct to the public. Some of the smaller breweries do not have premises licensing and without these amendments cannot offer takeaways or deliver direct to the public. I believe that small breweries have really reinvigorated the hospitality sector in recent years. Allowing off-sales on a fair, proportionate and reasonable temporary basis, subject to the various conditions put in these amendments and the existing legislation, is surely a good thing.

I certainly believe that the amendment is not a licence for street raves. It is just a means of providing similar spaces outside due to the shortages inside because of the lack of social distancing space, combined with adding the possibility of much more competition within the brewing industry generally.

Lord Clement-Jones Portrait Lord Clement-Jones (LD) [V]
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My Lords, I speak in support of Amendment 44, so well introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe. As she emphasised, it is a deregulatory amendment that entirely fits within the context of this Bill. Given her experience running the Better Regulation Unit and on the board of a major retailer, she should know.

This amendment is designed to give retailers the option of carrying out contactless age verification at a distance and automatically. It is supported not only by those representing and directly providing digital solutions, such as techUK, NCR and digital identity providers such as Yoti, but by the leaders of the key organisations involved in the retail trade, the British Retail Consortium and the Scottish Grocers Federation. It has the twin benefits of keeping retail staff and customers safe by assisting compliance with coronavirus guidelines and social distancing, and preventing the sales of age-restricted goods to minors, upholding the principles of Challenge 25—the retailing strategy that encourages anyone who is over 18 but looks under 25 to carry acceptable ID if they wish to buy alcohol.

The relaxation of coronavirus lockdown measures will now see an increase in in-store footfall, a potential rise in abuse and social distancing challenges with queues. Queues in supermarkets in particular create a point of potential congestion that can put staff at risk. Retailers have noted that almost 24% of baskets contain an age-restricted item. As a result of current rules, many customers wait longer than necessary. It can typically take 63 seconds to alert a staff member and carry out an age check when a basket includes an age-restricted good.

Age verification has a British standard, BSI PAS 1296 —Online Age Checking: Provision and Use of Online Age Check Services—which has been approved for use for all products apart from alcohol and has received assured advice from the Association of Convenience Stores. The standard has been worked on by age-verification experts and covers all the aspects important for designing and building a robust age-verification system—namely data protection, security, transparency and effective operation. Such a contactless method would take pressure off store staff, at a time when they are busy and pressured, and when wrong decisions can be made and there is temptation not to ask for ID.

The current conditions of customers wearing face coverings and social distancing make checking physical ID documents for age-restricted goods, in a retail context, much harder for staff. Staff have enough problems with aggressive customers without asking them to remove a mask or face covering that they are wearing under government guidance. As a result, there is a heightened risk of increased verbal, physical and racial abuse, increased coronavirus transmission risk when physically examining Challenge 25 approved ID documents, and the difficulty of matching documents to a customer wearing a face covering.

I have, for some time, been a supporter of age verification through digital identity systems, first legislated for in the Digital Economy Act 2017. It is clear that highly accurate digital age-proofing and identity-checking solutions are available off the shelf in the UK today that can significantly help alleviate issues facing retail staff. They are trusted for right to remain without a formal standard for 3 million-plus people and approved by the Joint Money Laundering Steering Group for financial services in the UK. In-store use of these technologies has been successful in the US and Europe—integrated into self-checkout and automated dispensing machines—but not in the UK, purely due to the current inconsistent regulatory requirements. We are behind other nations as a result, which is ironic given that the UK is playing a leading role in this technology.

In summary, the amendment would protect customers’ health, help with the development of a leading UK technology, reduce cost to retail because it reduces time taken at checkout and self-service, and reduce regulatory burden significantly because it removes the need for a second paper check of ID after the digital check. What can the Government conceivably object to in this amendment?

Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted Portrait Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD) [V]
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My Lords, I am speaking in favour of Amendment 3 from the noble Lord, Lord Balfe. If anything like the normal timetable had been in existence, I would have added my name to it.

At Second Reading, I asked for clarification over the scope of Clause 1(4)(b), specifically whether it covers supermarkets setting up pavement licences and whether that is good for the hospitality sector. The Minister wrote in reply, confirming that it covers any premises, but I will read into the record some of what the letter says, because of the emphasis it gives:

“This includes shops, such as convenience stores and supermarkets, which you referred to, from which food or drink can be bought. Draft guidance mentions public houses, cafés, bars and restaurants, including other types of food and drink establishments such as snack bars, coffee shops and ice cream parlours, though eligibility goes beyond this. It would include any businesses which sell food or drink, for example theatres and galleries with cafés and bars.


You also raised an important question about whether this is helping the hospitality industry by allowing other premises, such as shops from which food or drink can be bought to apply for pavement licences. Given that indoor space will be limited while social distancing measures apply, we want to provide a temporary process that helps support as many businesses to reopen as possible by allowing them to serve customers outdoors. This process is intended to help give much needed support to the hospitality industry, but given the impact Covid-19 has had on the whole economy, this provision should not be limited just to the hospitality industry when there is an opportunity for other sectors which have also been struggling economically to benefit.”

15:15
Apart from the admission that it covers supermarkets, the letter puts great emphasis on reopening and struggling venues. All the places named in the guidance had been forced to close, but supermarkets have not been closed or struggling; they have had to rise to challenges, but have done well out of people not being able to eat out. Convenience stores have not been closed either and, likewise, many have done well due to people shopping locally during lockdown. But the Bill has been introduced, promoted and publicised as helping the hospitality industry, while containing a hidden bombshell.
At Second Reading in the Commons, the Business Secretary said:
“We want to support the hospitality sector by allowing outdoor dining and off-premises sale of alcohol, helping the sector back on its feet with the promise of al fresco dining for all this summer.”—[Official Report, Commons, 29/6/20; col. 51.]
He went on:
“I turn first to the temporary measures in the Bill to step up the recovery of our hospitality sector. Our 127,000 pubs, restaurants and cafés, which employ around 2 million people, are the lifeblood of our high streets and town centres. Social distancing guidelines significantly affect their capacity to accommodate customers, and food and beverage service activity has fallen by nearly 90% in the last quarter. The Bill introduces a temporary fast-track process for pubs, cafés and restaurants to obtain local council permission to place tables and chairs on the pavement outside their premises.”—[Official Report, Commons, 29/6/20; col. 53.]
There is no mention of supermarkets. I have looked carefully but nowhere did he explain how it helped the hospitality sector to recover by allowing cheap competition on their doorstep from businesses that are not dedicated to hospitality and have the other advantages of mixed business. How is that preserving the lifeblood of our high streets? This is a devastating blow to pubs and cafés, and the Bill has been sold to them on a false prospectus: hailed as salvation coming down the track, but instead a Trojan horse and the harbinger of further demise.
I understand that local authorities can exercise discretion and apply specific rules, so they may be left with the decision on whether to support pubs or let them close for good, but I would prefer the Government to think again about this. For the avoidance of doubt, will the Minister confirm whether a local authority can make general rules preventing supermarkets from having pavement licences or must it be done case by case? We will come back to some of these points later, but the provision of tables and chairs for consumption of off-sales is contradictory to how licensing is usually interpreted. This wide liberalisation and its implications, at the very least, do not seem to have been properly explained.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Portrait Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 44 and 1. As declared on the register, and as I referred to at Second Reading, I chair the board of PASS, the proof of age standards scheme. I was delighted that my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe highlighted this scheme, which has the support of the hospitality and tourism sector, and the retail sector, as represented by the major players. It is true that we are undertaking a consultation at the moment and that there was a slight delay in enabling everyone from whom we had not already heard to respond.

The point I want to make is that obviously I am in favour of a digital verification scheme. However, to me, it is extremely important that any digital scheme should comply with the same standards and meet the same regulatory requirements as any physical provider. I am sure that my noble friend would agree with that.

As my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, pointed out, a physical proof of age scheme—now moving to digital—is government policy. We look to my noble friend the Minister to tell us, in responding to the debate, that the Home Office stands behind the proposals that we are to make in this regard. As my noble friend and the noble Lord rightly said, it will greatly expedite entrance to clubs, bars, nightclubs and all sorts of places if we have a digital verification scheme alongside the physical scheme. The scheme has been so successful because even the physical scheme offers an alternative to those people—usually young people—who, on a good night out, take their passport or driving licence and come home without it, which obviously incurs a huge expense. So anything that the Minister can do to chivvy things along with the Home Office would be very welcome news.

The fundamental point is that, whichever age verification scheme we use, be it physical or digital, it must meet certain standards. Obviously I would say that PASS is best placed to provide that verification and regulatory role.

I turn briefly to Amendment 1, moved so eloquently by my noble friend Lord Balfe. In most circumstances, it will be environmental health officers who enforce and police these arrangements. But there might be circumstances in which there is an outbreak of public disorder and the police are called. If it is indeed the case that the police have not been consulted, I would be interested to know the reason.

Baroness Kennedy of Cradley Portrait Baroness Kennedy of Cradley (Non-Afl) [V]
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My Lords, I will speak in support of Amendment 40, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond. This amendment seeks to insert a new clause, requiring the Secretary of State to make regulations to ensure that small independent breweries can make an application for a temporary premises licence easily and quickly. This is an important addition, as it would allow small independent breweries that would otherwise be excluded from the benefits of the licence measures in the Bill to take full advantage of them.

Like other businesses, independent breweries have struggled through the lockdown. A recent survey of small independent brewers, conducted by the Society of Independent Brewers, showed that 84% expect the pandemic and subsequent social distancing measures to have a lasting negative impact on their business. It is therefore right that the measures in the Bill, which are after all designed to help businesses recover and to protect jobs, can apply equally to small independent brewers. They should not be excluded.

After all, local breweries have a positive effect on local economies. Where I live in south London, Brockley Brewery—the local brewery, which was started in 2013—employs local people and is a London living wage employer. To survive the lockdown, it has been running a beer delivery service, alongside a weekend brewery shop. I am sure that these innovations have been a lifeline for the business. This amendment will allow other small independent breweries to benefit from innovations such as this. It will give them the option to use the measures in the Bill to keep their business going and to protect jobs. It will allow them to develop more innovative ways of getting their business back on its feet.

I can see no reason to exclude small independent brewers from benefiting from the measures in the Bill. I hope that the noble Baroness will accept the need for Amendment 40 and ensure that this vibrant part of the hospitality sector is not overlooked.

Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Portrait Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I thank the Minister, my noble friend Lord Howe, for his engagement with the House on this legislation. I also thank him for his very helpful letter confirming to me that convenience stores that sell food and drink are within the ambit of the legislation; I am grateful for that confirmation.

I support this legislation, at least in general terms, and the provisions relating to pavement licences. However, we need the proper protection of certain interests, and I will be listening carefully later when the interests of the blind and the partially sighted are considered, as I think we need proper protection there.

I am also concerned about the dangers of off-licence drinking, particularly in city centres and particularly late at night. I therefore have considerable sympathy with the arguments put forward so ably by my noble friend Lord Balfe. I urge the Government to get a grip on this particular aspect of licensing. We all want to see the opening up of our economy—of course we do—but it is only against a safe background that the measures will be successful. I urge the Government to adopt the same lack of dogma on social measures as they have done on economic measures, with such marked success.

As I say, it is only against a safe background that the measures will be successful. Perhaps I might talk more widely on that for a moment, because I think it is relevant to the whole idea of ensuring that we open up the economy safely. I think that mandatory face masks in shops will be necessary. The Prime Minister’s seeming instincts here must surely be right. We came to this late, but correctly in my view, for public transport; we should do the same for masks in shops. A voluntary approach will simply not work: it is rather like switching to driving on the other side of the road and inviting motorists to choose whether to do so or not. It will work only if everybody wears a mask—allowing of course for medical exemptions, which will be few in number.

Coming back to pavement licences, eating and drinking are very different outside and if we have social distancing. But therein lies the rub for late-night drinking and drinking in city centres, as we have seen recently in Soho. That is why we need to ensure that there is proper consultation with the police and to control late-night licences in city centres; otherwise, control of the virus will suffer a very serious setback.

I therefore support the need to work closely with the police, as stated so ably by my noble friend Lord Balfe. I also very much support the amendment on age verification, articulated so effectively by my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones; what they said was absolutely right. I will be listening very carefully to what the Minister says, knowing that she will articulate the case very effectively and come up with appropriate answers.

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord McNichol of West Kilbride) (Lab)
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I call the next speaker, the noble Lord, Lord Naseby. No? We will move on to the noble Lord, Lord Wood, and then come back to the noble Lord, Lord Naseby.

Lord Wood of Anfield Portrait Lord Wood of Anfield (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, I shall speak briefly in support of Amendment 40, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Holmes of Richmond and Lord Berkeley, who have already made the case for this important proposal; I am grateful to them both. This amendment would allow an application for a premises licence for a small brewery to be treated temporarily as a minor variation to existing terms, which would shorten the time for the consultation period and reduce the cost of the application. The aim is to provide desperately needed flexibility, speed and support for Britain’s breweries at a time of huge need.

15:30
The start of 2020 saw the UK independent brewery industry in great health. There are over 2,000 breweries in the UK—the most, apparently, since before the Second World War. Boosted particularly by a tax break introduced by Gordon Brown in 2002, the microbrewery industry has boomed in this country; it has become a crucial part not just of the entertainment leisure sector but of our cultural life more generally. However, the brewing industry has been severely hit by the Covid crisis, as my noble friend Lady Kennedy eloquently explained just now. While online beer sales have increased significantly, sales are still down overall by a whopping 82%. Government support in many parts of our country was prompt and extremely welcome, but the decision in April not to defer beer duty payments for the period in March when pubs were forced to shut down overnight has put an additional financial strain on the UK brewery sector. In the light of continuing sluggish demand, anxiety about the future and a litany of stories about late payments from establishments supplied by independent breweries, this is a part of our national life in continuing need of help.
That is why I urge the Government to consider this amendment. It is not costly; it offers regulatory flexibility rather than cash. By its nature it is well targeted—only those breweries that choose to take up the option of on-site licensed premises would benefit. It is time limited, so any unanticipated consequences for other parts of the retail sector would be minimal and short term. As my noble friend Lord Holmes eloquently set out earlier, proprietors are known to regulatory authorities; they have already passed the “fit and proper” test. Overall, from a regulatory point of view the proposal is low-risk and proportionate. In allowing an expansion of the number of venues, it gives more choice to consumers and, as my noble friend Lord Berkeley said, it encourages the small independent sector in the brewing industry to compete in different ways with larger, more established companies. I wholeheartedly support this amendment and I urge the Minister to back it.
Baroness Kramer Portrait Baroness Kramer (LD) [V]
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My Lords, I shall be brief. I just want to pick up on a point made earlier by my noble friend Lady Bowles: that the opening up promoted by this Bill—which I support, particularly given some of the safeguards embedded in amendments —should not extend to supermarkets and convenience stores. When pubs reopened just over a week ago in Richmond, I and others observed that licensed premises managed their customers and alcohol very responsibly. The problems that occurred were caused by people buying discounted alcohol from supermarkets and reading the relaxation of the rules governing pubs as, in effect, a relaxation of the constraints they had been observing during lockdown; therefore, they were out on the streets, frequently exceedingly drunk. As the chair of the Police Federation noted, it is crystal clear that people who are drunk cannot socially distance.

I could not find a way to shoehorn a specific amendment into this Bill, but I hope the Government will take on board that discounted alcohol served or sold by supermarkets and convenience stores late at night is a fundamental cause of problems that, unfortunately, are frequently being attributed to licensed premises. Locally, we find that those with a licence are well embedded in the community, have a strong and well-established relationship with the police and manage their customers exceedingly well. Going out on Richmond Green in the middle of the night, it becomes clear that it is supermarkets providing very cheap alcohol that are fuelling highly risky behaviour.

Baroness Noakes Portrait Baroness Noakes (Con)
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My Lords, I too shall be brief. I support what my noble friend Lord Balfe said about the House getting back to work. Indeed, I encourage my noble friend to come and join us in the Chamber, where he will find a warm welcome awaiting him.

I hope that he was wrong when he said that he was expecting Divisions on Report. We have to get this Bill on to the statute book as soon as possible. I hope we will not lose sight of the fact that these are temporary relaxations designed to help get the economy working again. Many of the issues raised are problems of normal times; we are not in normal times and we should not judge the relaxation proposals in the Bill by the issues we encounter in normal times. The important thing is to give the benefit of the doubt to premises that want to get going again. There are provisions in the Bill which allow licences to be revoked at a later stage if it does not work out. The most important thing is that we embrace the liberalisation encompassed in the Bill and do not hold it back by trying to make the application process more difficult or by putting more barriers in the way of our economy getting going again.

Baroness Meacher Portrait Baroness Meacher (CB) [V]
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My Lords, I need to explain at the outset that, although I am down to talk about this group of amendments, I should be addressing a later group. I hope your Lordships will forgive me; it is probably my fault—I am not sure—but I certainly should be speaking later on. I welcome the pavement licence provisions and have no problem with most of the clauses—apart from Clause 11, on which I should be speaking.

I shall speak to Amendment 26 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, and to Amendments 27 and 29. All these amendments restrict off-sales of alcohol to a time limit of 11 pm—an amendment with a 10 pm limit would be even better. I fear that the off-sales provisions are a bit of a panic response by the Government which will cause more problems than they solve. The Government defend the move by pointing out that changes can be made through an expedited review process if there are problems of crime and disorder, public nuisance or public safety—and of course, we can be sure that there will be. They also point out that the police have the power under Section 76 of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 to issue a closure notice if needed. When eventually the correct group of amendments comes along, can the Minister tell the House what the police’s reaction has been to the proposal to extend the time limit for off-sales? Presumably, they anticipate a lot more trouble.

The other problem pointed out by local authorities is that the powers do not work at all where there are several premises together, as is the case in most towns and cities. However, the extraordinary point about Clause 11 is that it encourages the excessive use of one of the most dangerous of all recreational drugs: alcohol. As we know, alcohol kills 7,000 to 8,000 people each year; it is one of the leading preventable causes of death in the UK. Some 7.8 million people binge on alcohol on their favourite night out—or favourite night for drinking—no doubt causing problems for their liver. Is it really the Government’s job to encourage the consumption of this dangerous and addictive drug? I cannot help also pointing out the illogicality and cruelty of government policy—not just of this Government; I am making a non-party-political point—with respect to a drug which has none of the dangers associated with alcohol. How can the Government on the one hand tell people to take the alcohol drug late into the night—the more the better; yes, it is dangerous, highly addictive and kills people, but never mind—and at the same time criminalise those who are very sick and take an entirely safe drug, cannabis medicine, which is well-balanced and harms nobody?

I know that the Minister understands these issues extremely well and I do not like to ask an awkward question, but how can she possibly justify these contradictory approaches to alcohol and cannabis? It is high time that all political parties aligned their drug policies with a scientific assessment of the risks of individual drugs. Clause 11 of this Bill is just one more ill-judged drug policy.

Lord Sheikh Portrait Lord Sheikh (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I support Amendment 11 in the name of my noble friend Lord Balfe. Clause 3(2) states:

“Before making a determination in respect of the application”


for a pavement licence,

“the local authority must … take into account any representation made to it … consult the highway authority … and other persons as the local authority may consider appropriate.”

I support having input from the people and organisations stated, but I feel that it is necessary for the local police to be consulted in making a determination.

To reiterate what I said at Second Reading, I welcome the Bill, which will trigger the revitalisation of our businesses and help the well-being of the people. As a businessman, I would like the economy to pick up and create employment for all the people who have been idle for the last few months. However, my concern is the safety of staff and the nuisances and disturbances caused on pavements and streets and in neighbourhoods. Before the pandemic, we saw young men and women misbehaving and fighting in the streets on Friday and Saturday nights. I used to see this happening when driving through towns at night. My concern is that people have been frustrated over the last few months and that the relaxation of the rules will lead to social problems.

When the problems of anti-social behaviour arise, they will be dealt with by the police on the spot. Local police know the hot spots in their areas where problems are likely to flare up. To alleviate the issues and possible problems, we need consultation and input from local police when an application is made for a pavement licence. I appreciate that the police have powers to issue closure notices, but this is like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. It is therefore important that the police are consulted before the problems arise.

Lord Harris of Haringey Portrait Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
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My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to my interests in the register and apologise to the Committee for not having been able to speak at Second Reading.

I welcome and accept the Government’s objective of getting the hospitality sector moving, and we should not underestimate the wider impact on the economy if that sector does not revive. Speaking personally, despite the strictures of the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, I would welcome a shift towards a café culture society and away from the focus on binge drinking and vertical drinking establishments. However, this move should be achieved with local consent and neighbourhood support, where the parameters can be properly policed and enforced. That is why Amendment 11 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, is so important. The views of local police must be sought on whether the proposed arrangements being considered in a locality are in practice workable and sustainable from a policing perspective. This raises a wider question: will the police be adequately resourced to manage what may be a more volatile street scene? What has the National Police Chiefs’ Council said about this? I observe that the extra officers the Government have promised will certainly not be available this summer.

An interesting and separate point is raised by Amendment 44, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, on digital age verification. It is extraordinary that the Government have been so slow in encouraging digital age verification. I declare that, for a year or two, I was associated with a company developing such a digital solution. The problem was, and remains, that licensees are required to inspect a physical document with holographic authentication. This means that teenagers routinely take their passports and driving licences with them on a night out, many of which are then lost. Digital age authentication, based on mobile phones, is not only possible but far more practical. When will the Government act on this?

15:45
Baroness Pinnock Portrait Baroness Pinnock (LD) [V]
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My Lords, I draw the House’s attention to my interests set out in the register as a councillor and as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. We on these Benches support the purpose behind this Bill, which is to provide additional flexibilities to businesses in the hospitality sector that have been forced to cease trading for three months and more as a result of government decisions to control the spread of the coronavirus.

As many Members have pointed out through the amendments discussed in this group, alcohol sales and premises are carefully licensed for a reason: undue consumption of alcohol can result in detrimental effects for both the individual and the locality. Although this Bill provides for temporary measures, temporary measures lasting 18 months can still cause considerable disruption for residents, communities and the environment. These factors must be carefully considered.

There are helpful proposals in these amendments to extend the flexibilities to include sports clubs and bars, as proposed by my noble friend Lord Addington. As he described, these provide a significant part of the funding for community sports clubs. I hope the Government will support this extension.

Equally, small breweries that currently do not have licences, as described by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, and others, also seem a worthwhile addition to the flexibilities provided in this Bill.

My noble friend Lady Bowles made a powerful case for businesses that are not directly part of the hospitality sector, such as supermarkets, to be excluded from being able to apply for pavement licences. I hope the Minister will make it clear that this Bill is not, in the words of my noble friend, a Trojan horse for struggling pubs, cafés and restaurants.

Flexibilities on current regulations can result in unforeseen additional concerns. The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, to assess their impact after three months and to ensure that these temporary changes are indeed temporary is to be welcomed.

On safety concerns, the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, made some interesting comments on the mandatory use of face masks. None of us wants the additional flexibilities to support businesses to result in easier routes for the virus to spread. The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, about the use of cash and provision of toilets is therefore important.

Enabling digital verification, in the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, which is supported by my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones, seems eminently sensible.

Temporary event notices are currently used for major local events such as festivals and fêtes. These are currently restricted to protect local communities and other licensees. Greatly expanding the number without a full consideration of the facts and impacts is questionable. With those comments, I pass on to other speakers.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
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My Lords, I refer the House to my relevant registered interests as a vice-president of the Local Government Association and as president of Pubwatch.

Group 1 deals with a range of amendments relating to premises and alcohol licensing, including Amendment 39 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Berkeley on temporary event notices and Amendment 41 in my name, which seeks to add a new clause on health and safety to the Bill after Clause 11.

The noble Lord, Lord Balfe, referred to there being no votes today. We do not often vote in Committee—I have now been in the House for 10 years. I have made it clear in all my dealings with the Government, at Second Reading and in my meetings with them, which have been very helpful, that I will divide the House on Report if necessary. I have been very clear on that. I hope that we will get some resolution today so that it will not be necessary, but I am certainly not averse to having a vote. I would not be accused of that.

The first amendment in this group, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, raises the issue of cumulative impact zones, which are areas defined as contributing to community problems because of alcohol. The noble Lord rightly seeks to stop premises in these zones applying for pavement licences. I look forward to the response from the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, explaining how she has consulted with groups such as Pubwatch and other groups representing towns and city centres.

I hope that the noble Baroness will also detail the wider assessment the Government have made of the impact of these changes on crime, and in response to Amendment 11, on police consultation, I hope she will confirm that dialogue with police, local authorities and other interested parties will continue after measures in the Bill are implemented.

The noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, made the point, which I agree with, about the need for the new street drinking to be controlled and managed safely. People can then relax and support the local economy while doing so safely and helping to avoid a second spike. That is very important.

My Amendment 39, plus two amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, deal with how the provisions can help businesses which do not have the necessary licence presently, as they rely on temporary event notices. This would also help street vendors who have been hit particularly hard in this crisis and have seen their doors close, some for good. Up to 15,000 businesses have lost all their income overnight and many tens of thousands of pounds have been tied up in rent for music festivals and rolled over to 2021.

The amendment would also help small breweries, which have suffered. Many noble Lords have spoken about the support for the small brewery industry. As we have heard, small breweries have seen up to 82% of their sales reduced because of Covid-19. They have not received the same level of financial support as pubs and the hospitality sector, and that is a matter of regret. One in four breweries—about 500 of the 2,000—does not currently have any way to sell directly to the public. The Government should adopt this measure as a way of helping them in the months ahead. The noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, and my noble friend Lord Berkeley, made a convincing case for the need to help small breweries, as did my noble friends Lady Kennedy of Cradley and Lord Wood of Anfield. As my noble friend Lord Berkeley said, these small breweries have made a fantastic contribution to the variety and type of beers sold in the UK; they employ local people, and they have been devastated. We need to do something and I hope the noble Baroness will be able to give us a positive response.

My Amendment 41 seeks to highlight the importance of workers’ safety in the hospitality sector, which the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, also referred to. I am grateful to the support I have had from the Bakers, Food, and Allied Workers’ Union for its contribution about how to address this issue. I hope the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, will address issues such as the handling of cash and how that can be limited. In pubs and other small venues, small amounts of money are handed over. There are payment companies like Worldpay and Shopify, but in many cases if you go into a pub or a small shop and want to pay by debit card, or if you spend less than £10 or £15, they charge you. There needs to be some way in which the companies will not charge the 10p that they presently do. What contribution can they make to ensure that people use less cash and pay by debit card more? Companies would need to step up to the plate and maybe the Government could ask them to do that. It would certainly help reduce the amount of cash being used, with the benefits that that would bring.

It would be interesting to hear about the protection of security staff at entrances to licensed premises. That is very difficult normally, but particularly now that we are talking about social distancing. What support are the Government going to give those staff to ensure they can do their job properly as well as being safe?

How do we ensure that toilets are safe for staff and customers? What discussion has the Minister had with the British Toilet Association including advice on keeping toilets clean and safe? This will be of paramount importance for staff who need to ensure their toilets are kept clean and safe for their customers. Can the noble Baroness also explain what guidance the Government will offer to pubs on these other issues?

Other amendments in the group raise important points, and I hope that we will get a detailed response, particularly on Amendment 44, from the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. They both made a clear case about allowing better enforcement of the drinking regulations, which would be welcomed. It will be interesting to see whether it is possible to bring that forward quickly. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, made it clear that there is support in the sector for bringing these matters in quickly.

I will leave my comments there and look forward to the detailed response from the Minister.

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
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My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate and particularly to the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, who manages to get cannabis into every debate—I admire her tenacity. If she is agreeable, I will respond to some of her comments in group six.

The general tenor of this debate is that people support the context in which this Bill is proposed, to get the economy moving and, crucially, the fact that it is sunsetted to next September. As my noble friend Lady Noakes clearly articulated, this is not about the norm but about emergency measures to get the economy moving again. As this mistake has been made a couple of times, it is important to distinguish between pavement licences and off-sales licences, which of course supermarkets have got anyway.

Amendment 1 in the name of my noble friend Lord Balfe seeks to prevent the granting of pavement licences to businesses in cumulative impact zones. It is right that cumulative impact and potential for nuisance and disorder be considered when granting these pavement licences. That is why the Bill gives local authorities the ability to effectively manage risks in their local area. If a local authority thinks problems related to alcohol or anything else could occur, they can refuse an application for a pavement licence. In granting these licences, they may also impose conditions and if these conditions are breached, the local authority may issue a notice requiring the breach to be remedied. Local authorities can also revoke pavement licences in several situations including when the licence is causing risk to public health or safety or causing anti-social behaviour and nuisance. I hope my noble friend will agree it is important to retain local authority discretion in this area and he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Amendment 3 is also in the name of my noble friend, and I appreciate the points he has made. We expect the pavement and alcohol licencing measures to benefit cafes, restaurants and pubs primarily. However, it is important that the Government support economic recovery whenever they can, which is why this fast-track route is available to all businesses selling and serving food and drink. It will mean that a range of businesses, including some shops, theatres, and galleries, will be able to apply for pavement licences and off-sale licences, maximising the economic impact of these temporary measures. For the reasons I have set out I am not able to accept this amendment and I hope that my noble friend will not press it to a vote.

Amendment 11 is the last of the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Balfe. I assure noble Lords that the Bill requires local authorities to consult such persons as the local authority considers appropriate before determining an application for a pavement licence.

To answer my noble friend Lord Sheikh and the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, the Government expect that this would include the local police force, but believe that the local authority can and should use its discretion and local knowledge to decide who to consult. To answer the question from the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, directly: yes, we have spoken to the police. We have engaged with them throughout. The most recent time that I spoke directly to Martin Hewitt was last Friday, just before we went into super Saturday. We will continue to engage with them throughout.

16:00
Off-sales licences will of course be granted automatically to most premises that already have an on-sales alcohol licence. However, as with pavement licences, local authorities retain their full ability to review or revoke licences, including in consultation with local police if disorder occurs. I hope that, given my rationale, my noble friend will choose not to press his amendment.
Amendments 36 to 40 and 43 seek to support businesses such as breweries. As my noble friend Lord Holmes said, the Bill intends to do just what he articulates: to get the economy going. I am very grateful to all noble Lords for tabling these amendments and bringing this issue here for discussion. I assure them that I am very sympathetic to the objective of supporting small businesses throughout the pandemic.
As the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and my noble friend Lord Holmes know, the Bill’s provisions add the permission of off-sales to most premises with an existing on-sales premises licence. However, it would not be appropriate to use this emergency Bill to amend the process by which premises licences are granted. It is vital that the conditions on which a new premises licence is granted receive careful consideration from agencies with the knowledge of local issues and of the licensee. Any business seeking a premises licence can make an application under existing provisions in the Licensing Act 2003. Similarly, we are not currently seeking to increase the number of temporary event notices available for application in one year because these are temporary and limited, and should not be used as a route to a permanent licence.
I will answer the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Addington, on sports clubs. Under the Licensing Act 2003, a club cannot operate off-sales alone and any alcohol supplied for consumption off the premises must be in a sealed container. The Act says that they can sell alcohol by retail to club guests for consumption on the premises only. To give them permission for off-sales would be a significant change and out of the scope of the legislation. Any club without a permission to supply alcohol to its members for consumption off the premises can of course apply for a variation.
Amendment 41 was tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy. I appreciate the concerns raised that some recommended safer working practices should be enshrined in law to reflect the risk of a second wave of Covid-19 and to lower the likelihood of legal action being taken against employers. I assure him that the Government have worked tirelessly to produce clear safe working guidance. Public Health England and the Health and Safety Executive have helped to create that guidance. An established update and evaluation process is undertaken by officials, where industry—and, indeed, anyone—can contact government with comments and feedback.
The noble Lord asked whether I had spoken to the toilet association. I have not, but I will see whether any of my fellow Ministers, or indeed any officials, have and get back to him. The HSE and local authorities already enforce the Health and Safety at Work etc Act, which clearly sets out an employer’s legal obligation. The amendment would create an additional burden and lead to an ineffective use of taxpayers’ money during the pandemic. I hope that I have given reassurance regarding the operation of the safe working guidance and that the noble Lord will choose not to move his amendment. I will add that the toilet hygiene standards of the particular restaurant I went to in Manchester were extremely good.
The Government have carefully considered Amendment 44 from my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. The protection of children from harm is a licensing objective that informs all decisions of licensing authorities and which all licensed premises should promote. Indeed, it is an offence under Section 146 of the Licensing Act 2003 to sell alcohol to a child. Age verification at the point of sale is a key element to prevent children gaining access to alcohol. It is essential that we have confidence in the forms of identification presented as proof of age to promote this licensing objective.
At present it is not possible to use a digital ID as proof of age for the purchase of alcohol in the UK because there is no industry standard for digital ID, although I assure noble Lords that the Government recognise advancements in technology and the need for agreement on what constitutes an acceptable form of digital ID for age-verification purposes. We have long supported this scheme and welcome the alcohol industry’s commitment to continue to support the Proof of Age Standards Scheme. We have also commissioned its board to produce a set of standards for digital ID. However, due to the pandemic, it has now been delayed. We look forward to receiving recommendations from the board next year. Until such a standard is agreed, the current restrictions should be upheld. I hope that my noble friend will not press her amendment. I shall finish there.
Baroness Garden of Frognal Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)
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My Lords, I have received a request to speak after the Minister from the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering.

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Portrait Baroness McIntosh of Pickering [V]
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My Lords, my noble friend has answered my question and I am absolutely delighted with her answer.

Lord Balfe Portrait Lord Balfe [V]
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My Lords, my noble friend the Minister has very effectively dealt with most of the points that I raised. The key thing is that she has confirmed that local authorities can refuse licences in cumulative impact zones. I am certainly very happy with local authority discretion. I have spent much of my life in politics arguing for devolution of power and for local authorities to be given the right to make decisions in local self-interest. It is clearly now up to Cambridge City Council, in my case, to decide what it wishes to do in the cumulative impact zone. I look forward to it considering things firmly.

As far as my other two amendments go, I am also happy with my noble friend’s response, in particular that the police will be consulted. Again, this is up to local authorities. I am sure that they will do so.

I took the points made by a number of noble Lords about the hospitality industry. The Bill goes somewhat further than the hospitality industry, but it is that industry that we seek to help. It will be a long struggle. Many of my friends are very reluctant, shall I say, to go back to restaurants, certainly indoors. If the Minister has time to read it, last weekend the Office for National Statistics published a very interesting document following a survey of how people regarded lockdown and the consequences thereof. To answer the direct question that I am asked: I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 1.

Amendment 1 withdrawn.
Baroness Garden of Frognal Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees
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We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 2. I remind the Committee that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this or any other amendment in this group to a Division should make that clear in debate.

Amendment 2

Moved by
2: Clause 1, page 1, line 9, after “furniture” insert “safely (including a barrier being sufficiently visible to separate the furniture from the pavement and furniture placed sufficiently away from the pavement to allow for the safe passing of pedestrians)”
Lord Holmes of Richmond Portrait Lord Holmes of Richmond [V]
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My Lords, it is a pleasure to open debate on this second group of amendments. In doing so I state, as I did for group 1, my general support for the intent of the Bill. I am fully supportive of all and any credible attempts to get the economy not just going but motoring again. There is no reason whatever why, if we really focus on this, we cannot have a sharp and reassuring V-shaped rebuilding and recovery. However, the point in this set of amendments is that, as we do that rebuilding, we either rebuild together or will not rebuild anything particularly worthwhile at all. Everything must be predicated on inclusive design; then everything would be taken care of and sorted at that stage. This is in many ways emergency legislation, and the first real test is: in the crisis, can we hold fast to that concept of inclusive design, even when time is tight and we seek to get our economy motoring again? As I said, I am completely supportive of that.

At Second Reading last Monday the noble Earl, Lord Howe, referred on this issue to “guidance”, “may” and “consider”. If we put them together as “guidance may consider”, that would be far too conditional, whatever issue we were describing. When we look at something as significant as accessibility and whether somebody is able independently to access their local streets and community, we need something far more solid on which to pursue it than “guidance”, “may” and “consider”. Regarding the amendments in my name, I will speak to Amendments 2, 5, 8, 12 and 17. I thank all noble Lords who have signed my amendments and all the other noble Lords who have tabled amendments in this group. It shows how significant these issues are, and how much we need to ensure that the reopening of the economy and its rebuilding is done in an inclusive manner.

Specifically, Amendment 2 simply talks about a potential barrier around seating areas to enable particularly the blind and visually impaired, but in reality all street users, to access the area safely and inclusively. It is about having clear demarcation rather than seating areas potentially strewn across the pavement.

Amendment 5 makes it clear—and would put it in the Bill—that anything in this needs to comply with the Equality Act 2010. It is absolutely the case that all legislation has to do so but, considering the seriousness of what we are talking about, it is worth probing the Government on this point and having the provisions of the Equality Act understood in the Bill.

Amendment 8 demonstrates how pervasive this question of accessibility and inclusion is. This goes to the means by which local authorities publish notices and enable people even to be aware of a notice, and that a potential change is happening in their local area. If those notices are not published in an accessible format, not least online but considering all potential accessible formats, it would clearly be in breach of the local authority’s public sector equality duty. Can my noble friend the Minister give her views on that point?

Amendment 12 not only seeks to ensure that accessibility means that there is a clear pathway through any seating development; it also speaks very much to the need for social distancing. It sets out clearly that not only should it be possible for two persons to pass—be they wheelchair users, white-cane users, guide-dog users such as myself or people who use a walking frame—but that they should be able to pass with a 1-metre distance. Can my noble friend comment on the current guidance on which this distancing is to be based, given pavement width? Has this guidance been updated in the light of Covid-19 or is it still rooted on an understanding of distances to enable passage which take no account in reality of social distancing requirements?

16:15
Finally, Amendment 17 goes to the issue that a number of noble Lords see in the process of the application. The potential needs to be built in for residents and users—not just those with disabilities, but all—to be able to put in a complaint about a development if it has been enabled and a grant has been made, yet in reality that area is not accessible. Amendment 17 would put a requirement on the council to inspect within seven days and have the ability to immediately revoke that pavement licence if it did not fit with the Equality Act on accessibility—the public sector equality duty—and, crucially, that whole concept of predicating everything on inclusive design.
I look forward to hearing the comments from other noble Lords on this group. I also look forward to the Minister’s responses to ensure that we move from “guidance”, “may” and “consider” to something that can give real confidence to not just disabled people but all people. This would be an effective, positive move to drive economic activity, but in a way that is inclusive for all.
Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas (Con) [V]
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My Lords, what I want to say on my Amendment 4 will work very well with what I want to say on Amendment 24, when we come to it. If the Minister chooses to reply to Amendment 4 now, that is fine, but I will leave my remarks until later.

Lord Low of Dalston Portrait Lord Low of Dalston (CB) [V]
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My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 6, 7 and 8 in this group—briefly, because the case seems self-evident. These amendments provide that consultation materials should be provided in accessible formats for the benefit of disabled people, particularly those with visual impairments, and that the clock on consultation should be started only once materials have been made available online in an accessible manner. I would be most grateful if the Minister would be willing to take these amendments on board.

Lord Cormack Portrait Lord Cormack (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I sat in your Lordships’ Chamber last Monday and heard every speech on Second Reading. Two things came across to me powerfully: the second I will deal with later, when I speak to my Amendment 28. First, I want to address a few remarks to my Amendment 20 and, as it is so short, I will read it for the benefit of your Lordships. Line 7 on page 5 of the Bill says:

“The Secretary of State may publish conditions for pavement licences.”


We should probably change that “may” to must”. I have added the words:

“and in doing so must take into account the needs of the disabled, including the blind and the partially sighted.”

It came across in speech after speech last week that there was real concern on this issue—a concern most graphically expressed by my friend the noble Lord, Lord Low of Dalston, who has just spoken, and my noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond, who introduced this series of amendments.

t is one thing to aspire to a café society, which is very pleasant. It is entirely reasonable that we should spill out on to the pavements, if it is safe and suitable to do so. But it is essential that the needs of the disabled —including the blind and the partially sighted—are properly recognised. I very much hope that when the Minister comes to reply, we will have an assurance from the Government that this matter will be explicit and on the face of the Bill. If it is not, I will seek to reintroduce an amendment next week on Report and, if necessary, divide the House, but I am confident that that will not be necessary. I hope that this debate will be brief, and unanimous that on this issue, in those immortal words, “something must be done”.

Lord Blencathra Portrait Lord Blencathra (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 21 in my name, but begin by referring to the recommendations of the Delegated Powers Committee, which I have the honour of chairing. It was critical of these conditions, which are legally enforceable but not subject to parliamentary scrutiny. The committee’s report last week said:

“In the absence of cogent reasons for not requiring mandatory conditions to be imposed through regulations, we recommend that the power to impose legally enforceable conditions in Clause 5(6) should be exercisable through regulations and that the negative procedure would afford an adequate level of parliamentary scrutiny.”


However, today I am requesting simply that we apply it to the national condition relating to space on pavements for disabled people, because the guidance is absolute nonsense which would not survive proper parliamentary scrutiny.

This is nothing to do with my noble friend the Deputy Leader, or the Minister, who did not invent this guidance published by the Government on 22 June. Paragraph 4.2 refers to

“the recommended minimum footway widths and distances required for access by mobility impaired and visually impaired people as set out in Section 3.1 of Inclusive Mobility”.

Paragraph 2.2 on page 5 of Inclusive Mobility says that:

“Someone who does not use a walking aid can manage to walk along a passageway less than 700mm wide, but just using a walking stick requires greater width than this; a minimum of 750mm. A person who uses two sticks or crutches, or a walking frame, needs a minimum of 900mm, a blind person using a long cane or with an assistance dog needs 1100mm. A visually impaired person who is being guided needs a width of 1200mm. A wheelchair user and an ambulant person side-by-side need 1500mm width.”


So, if I read this correctly—and I apologise to the Minister if I have got it wrong—rather than one simple instruction to café owners to keep a space of 1,500 millimetres, there are six different widths by which they might be guided.

Some noble Lords are old enough to remember two ancient television programmes. I can imagine a Benny Hill sketch—or something like that wonderful “Fawlty Towers” episode in which John Cleese keeps moving his diners from table to table—whereby a café owner sets out his tables at 700 millimetres and sees someone with a walking stick coming and moves them out to 750 millimetres, then I come along in my chair with my wife beside me, and he moves them out to 1,500 millimetres, and closes them back to 1,100 millimetres when my noble friend Lord Holmes comes along with Lottie, his guide dog, or the noble Lord, Lord Low, comes along with his white stick.

These guidelines are unworkable. We must have one simple rule: a minimum of 1,500 millimetres in all cases. That would also go some way towards aiding social distancing.

Baroness Thomas of Winchester Portrait Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD) [V]
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My Lords, I am bowled over by the research done by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra.

I am pleased to support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, and the other amendments in this group. People who do not have mobility problems or sight impairment might wonder why there are so many amendments about accessibility. The answer is simple. So many of us who use wheelchairs or, in my case, mobility scooters, or have a sight impairment, have all had experience of obstructed pavements, which make journeys extremely hazardous.

As my noble friend Lady Pinnock said from these Benches, we support what the Government are doing in the Bill, but there is detail which must be addressed, and I hope that I am pushing at an open door. I too note the national guidance for local authorities over pavement space, but guidance is unenforceable by its very nature, so how much notice of it will be taken by an enthusiastic café owner trying to maximise table space, for example? We need something much more explicit in the Bill, and I urge the Minister to table a suitable amendment on Report if he is not going to accept any of the existing amendments.

Baroness Grey-Thompson Portrait Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB) [V]
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My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 2, 5, 12, 17 and 25 in this group. Obviously, from personal experience, I feel very strongly about these amendments. Disabled people are often forgotten when we are thinking about access, and perhaps in the last 10 years not much has really changed. I support physical distancing, while balancing it with the need to open businesses in a safe way, but the Bill should reflect the concerns of disabled people and support them.

Not every disabled person is vulnerable; however, when I think about what disabled people experience in real life without Covid-19, having to manoeuvre round dockless bikes, bad footpaths, poorly dropped kerbs and adverse camber, with the additionality of where we are now, with blue badge spaces being closed off, and how difficult it is for a number of disabled people to move around in a safe way, like others, I hope that the Government will support the amendments in this group. If we do not do this properly, disabled people will stay at home and will not be out spending money, and we know the value of the purple pound. Disabled people are an important part of getting the economy going again, but if this is not done properly, it could put disabled people in more danger by moving them to kerbs and slopes which are not safe for them to use.

The noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, covered well that there must be some urgent investigation regarding Amendment 17, and not just that this will be looked at some time in the future. As noble Lords have mentioned, guidance around disabled people is often forgotten. Also, I would like to see disabled people involved in this change and setting the guidelines and the standards required, because quite often a non-disabled person’s view of what disability access is required is somewhere between interesting and completely unhelpful. A number of people with visual impairments have told me that already in these times, when they have been out and about, they are being bumped into and pushed aside, and wheelchair users are being leaned over, and they cannot just jump out of the way of people coming towards them. That is why a sensible discussion on the amount of space is needed. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, on looking at all the idiosyncrasies around the guidance. Frankly, they are idiotic. There must be one standard.

My final point is that guidance is a lovely idea, but around disabled people it is ignored because it is seen as “just guidance”. It does not effect change in the way we want. One thing that I hope comes out of this is a more positive way of thinking about how disabled people interact with the built environment, to enable them to move around in a better and safer way.

16:30
Lord Harris of Haringey Portrait Lord Harris of Haringey
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My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson. I wonder what she might have said had she mentioned the Government’s proposals on electric scooters in the context of the problems of disabled people, or of those with visual impairments. It seems to me that they are going to exacerbate some of the problems we are talking about.

The amendments in this group deal with the nature of public consultation. Amendment 6 in particular, to which I have added my name, tightens up the expectations on local authorities. As I understand the Bill as drafted, it would be sufficient for a local authority simply to put the details on a notice stuck in the window of the town hall. The amendment, however, would require that those details be in a form accessible to the residents affected. I would like to see local authorities expected to consult directly with the residents in the immediate vicinity of some of these proposed licence changes.

Amendment 6 would also properly allow seven days for residents to register their objections or raise concerns. That seems to me to be a minimum. Seven days is a very short time under any circumstances, but, unless these subsections are strengthened, most residents in the immediate vicinity of a premises for which these changes are intended will never hear about them until they have been agreed, and probably not until the extra pavement furniture appears; until the extra noise starts; until the extra singing starts; and until the yobs start urinating and defecating on their properties. I assume that the Minister does not wish to be regarded as the Minister responsible for people doing that in others’ front gardens—but that is the danger, unless there is a proper degree of consultation, and people have the opportunity to raise their concerns. Amendment 6 is very modest, and I trust the Minister will accept it.

Amendment 17 is also very modest. If the new pavement use turns out to make it difficult for people with disabilities, or others such as parents with pushchairs and young people, to navigate the pavement, the local authority must speedily visit and assess the situation. If there is a problem, the pavement licence should be revoked. Social distancing already requires people on many pavements to step into the road to get past each other. It is clearly more difficult if you are blind, in a wheelchair, or simply pushing a double buggy with another child in tow. If you have to navigate a group of inebriated and boisterous young men—and it will often be young men—on the pavement, it is far worse. Under such circumstances, not only is consultation needed but an inspection of how the arrangements work in practice. How far do the pavement tables extend? In practice, on whichever model the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, was talking about, how much leeway do the groups standing around leave for those passing by? Again, I trust that the Minister will accept this amendment.

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe [V]
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My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, with his detailed knowledge of local rules. However, I wish to emphasise the importance of balance, and to remind noble Lords that these are temporary measures. We must not get bound up in regulatory amendments, however justified these might be for permanent laws. We have to get the economy and our high streets going again and allow vibrancy to return to our bars and pubs. Our hospitality sector has been decimated and it needs all the help it can get.

There are safeguards: there is scope for suspending licensing conditions for up to three months, or removing permission for sales of alcohol for consumption off the premises. There are quite onerous requirements for Covid-19 risk assessments prepared in consultation with employees and unions. There are also various forms of guidance which, as we have heard from my noble friend Lord Blencathra, can contain anomalies. But the economy needs to open up. Bars and pubs must be part of the revival and regeneration, whether by young people, tourists or those of us at a more stately stage of life. The Local Government Association has, rightly, supported the Bill, including pavement licensing freedoms, and we need to get on with turning it into law.

Finally, I did not get a chance to say so, but I will be returning to digital verification on Report, as there is more to be done—and quickly.

Lord Carlile of Berriew Portrait Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB) [V]
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My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe. Like her, I absolutely recognise the economic imperatives behind the Bill, including this part of it. In your Lordships’ House we have excellent spokespeople for disabled people and real expertise, ranging from a colleague with enormous Olympic achievements to the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, who I congratulate on his admirable—if uncharacteristic—feat of pedantry in this debate, showing the absurdity of some of the rules. I support the notion that there should be the best possible uniform standard for enabling disabled people to negotiate our streets and built environment, even when economic imperatives lead to the opening up of those streets for eating, drinking and café society.

I will add a comment on Amendments 6, 7 and 8. There are good reasons for planning restrictions, and we do not want to see our built environment damaged significantly as a result of the economic imperatives that we are following. In particular, we need to protect the peace of places where people live and not see them turned into drinking streets because they happen to have a couple of pubs in the vicinity. I therefore support the requirement set out in Amendments 6, 7 and 8 for a proper consultation period.

Because of the internet, everybody knows that it is necessary at the current time to curtail some of the more officious parts of planning law, I would regard 14 days, rather than a week, as a reasonable period. However, it is important for such applications to be screened on the internet by local authorities, which can do it very easily, and for people to be given a meaningful number of days in which to make their representation. That would enable local authorities to make a quick assessment of the level of objections, if there were any, and to make an empirical judgment, rather than reacting only to the economic imperatives. I will keep back some of the things I want to say on similar issues to the debate on the next group of amendments.

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Portrait Baroness McIntosh of Pickering [V]
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My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lords, Lord Holmes, Lord Blencathra and Lord Cormack, on their amendments. This is a difficult area. On the one hand, we want to proceed quickly as these are temporary measures and we want to make good and recoup some of the losses that the hospitality industry has suffered. On the other, we want to allow access for those who are visually or otherwise impaired, or who are wheelchair users. When he sums up on this group of amendments, will my noble friend clarify how the Government imagine that the guidelines will be fit for purpose in this regard? Although I can see that there is an argument for consultation, does my noble friend not agree that that could potentially delay the coming into force of these arrangements?

I bow to the good will and common sense of the restauranteurs and bar owners who will seek to use a pavement area only if it is physically safe for the category that falls within the remit of these amendments. It is up to them, working with the environmental health officers and the police, to make sure that these provisions are enforceable.

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Portrait Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]
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My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow my colleague the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering. I declare my interest as a vice-president of the LGA. This is an interesting section of amendments, because this is something we should be doing all the time. We should not have to insert it into legislation: it should be automatic. We have not only a considerable number of disabled people in our society but an ageing population. Speaking as someone who is ageing, I would like to think that such care and planning always happens, particularly with legislation of this kind. Even when it is temporary, it still matters.

It is obvious to us all that coronavirus has put life on hold. It has also given us a chance to change established ways of working. I note that many noble Lords have been talking about getting back to normal, but I argue that normal is not a particularly good place to return to. We should be thinking about how to make things better and not just repeating mistakes made in the past couple of hundred years. Increasingly, of course, given the changes in our population, we need to ensure that we are not imposing disabilities on people who are very active but have sight or movement problems.

The Bill should require that a minimum safe pavement area be left accessible—that is obvious—so that street furniture does not force pedestrians to walk in the road. That safe pavement space could vary depending on how busy the route is. Some high streets, for example, may have no safe encroachment area, which will cause large numbers of people to get too close together, but others might only require a metre or the 500 cm that the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, spoke about—his was a pretty good speech. In any event, the Bill is currently deficient as it does nothing to address that issue, and the likely problems are obvious. Some councils have taken the opportunity during the coronavirus pandemic to close some streets to traffic and open them to pedestrians. That is obviously a wonderful way forward.

Consultation definitely needs to be improved for the emergency licensing regime. The measures proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, would maintain rapid licensing while helping to ensure that those who may be impacted can have their say and adapt the licensing accordingly. A system of appeal or reconsideration should be included in the Bill. It is natural that some mistakes will be made with such a rapid decision-making process, so it would be a good idea to include a provision that would remove these measures quickly as well. Judicial review should not be the only option to put things right. It is very cumbersome and slow.

Tucked into this group is Amendment 4 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, which would allow licences for pavement spaces outside empty premises. That would be a worthy improvement to the Bill, making better use of empty premises and their adjacent pavements. It is a simple amendment and I hope that the Minister can accept it.

16:45
Lord Naseby Portrait Lord Naseby (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I very much support the Bill and admire Her Majesty’s Government for pushing it forward. I say particular thanks to my noble friend Lord Howe, who wrote me a letter about new towns.

I will speak in favour of Amendment 2. I say to my noble friend that for five years of my life I lived opposite a pub, and if you live opposite, adjacent to or close to a pub you expect noise on Fridays and Saturdays, so there is nothing new about that in relation to the Bill. That point should be considered.

I say to my dear noble friends, Lord Holmes and Lord Blencathra, who is my roommate, well done because they have made people think. But, frankly, the average publican will think. He or she is aware of the disabled and of wheelchairs. Maybe they need reminding, and Amendment 2 does that, but for heaven’s sake, this is only a temporary Bill. The only point I would make to my noble friend the Minister is, why do we not review this after six months? After all, the real point of the Bill is the next six months; particularly the summer and autumn. It would be more sensible to review it towards the end of this year, around December, in readiness for next year. The need is self-evident. I support the amendment and wish my Front Bench all possible success with the Bill.

Earl of Clancarty Portrait The Earl of Clancarty (CB) [V]
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My Lords, I support pavement licences not only for the purposes of the Bill but because, as I said at Second Reading, they have the potential to help knit together communities. But there must—“must” is the operative word—be access for all pavement users. Otherwise, our pavements are not a shared space in the wider sense of the term.

Anyone who knows Berlin and smaller towns in various countries on the continent will see how well this can work. As a pedestrian in Berlin, I do not recall ever having to walk around tables and chairs, which is an important point. The scheme is not working if you cannot walk down the centre of the payment, and where the pavement is wide enough, there is no reason why café furniture cannot be split into two sections so that it can be right up against the road or fence between for safety.

I am sure that there is a whole art to this, but things such as large wooden tubs with flowers and large umbrellas marking the corners of the café territory can give the area a structure that is both open and rigid, so that pedestrians know precisely where they can walk on a predictable, routine basis. That is extremely important, particularly in the context of the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Low. You should be able to walk down a pavement and know precisely where you will be walking on different days.

Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale Portrait Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)
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My Lords, I had the pleasure yesterday afternoon of my first meal out since before the lockdown, at the fabulous Drift Inn in Lamlash, on the Isle of Arran. The young proprietors and members of staff there had been looking forward to their first full spring and summer, with tourists and locals enjoying their hospitality. Of course, the business has had to stand still for several months. For them and so many others, small businesses in particular, I welcomed the Bill last week and I welcome it again today. I hope that, beyond England and elsewhere in the United Kingdom, there will be a bit more enthusiasm for supporting these businesses to get safely back on the rails over the coming weeks and months.

Turning to the amendments, I counsel the Government not to go against the grain when pushing through the Bill and the important powers it will enable. The Government themselves have spoken about building back better after the lockdown and Covid-19. There have been many negatives and terrible impacts of Covid-19 and the lockdown over recent months, but for those of us lucky enough to have had the opportunity to leave our homes, at times it has also been a pleasure to reclaim our streets and parks for walks or runs and relaxation. Many people have commented on that.

On the issue of off-sales, which I mentioned last week and which will come up later in Committee, I think it would be wrong for those to become too readily available in a society where they are already far too readily available. That is a major mistake. Also, we cannot talk about “building back better” if we leave people out of the equation. Without the amendment so ably introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, whose introduction to this group was excellent, and without the consultation that was so well described by my noble friend Lord Harris, we will be, yes, rightly encouraging businesses to become entrepreneurial in this new environment and encouraging customers to go out and enjoy the hospitality of those businesses, but if we do that to the exclusion of sections of our society, whether they are there as customers or are just passing by, that will be a terrible error. We should leave no one behind as we emerge from this lockdown period.

I urge the Government not to go ahead with the Bill in its current form just because it has been through the House of Commons and because it was drafted by Ministers and officials before these debates but to listen to the debates and make the changes. They will get a much stronger welcome in the country for the Bill when enacted, and it will be more successful as a result, if it involves everybody and does not leave anybody behind.

Baroness Uddin Portrait Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl) [V]
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My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow my noble friend’s enthusiasm and wise observations. I had signed up to speak on Second Reading and, due to unfortunate technical problems, was unable to do so. I wish to speak to Amendments 6 and 8.

I echo the introductory comments of the noble Lord, Lord Balfe. His concerns may be widely applicable in many areas of our country. I am deeply concerned about the impact of the fast-tracking measures that will allow alcohol to be served outside or off premises. I witnessed first-hand a large event at a venue nearby, on two consecutive weekends, and was shocked to witness large numbers of young people gathered without any social distancing—not a mask in sight—spilling on to the streets, as highlighted by the noble Lord, Lord Bourne. I welcome the points made earlier by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, about age verification. I question the age of many present at these gatherings and agree with the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, that it is not enough to rely on staff minding the entrance to ensure identity of large numbers of eagerly waiting young persons.

I suggest to the Government that the beneficial income revenue is likely to be seriously compromised by insurmountable amounts of litter, men urinating on the road and against buildings, activity going well into unsocial hours with an unacceptable level of noise and antisocial behaviour and disturbance, inevitably causing concern to nearby family residents. In fact, a group of people came over to my car as I was driving by, who were drunk and aggressive. Witnessing this was my adult son, who lives with autism. He was distinctly alarmed and anxious. I could see no one obviously enforcing rules at this event and no signposting for social distancing rules or for toilets.

Therefore, I am uncomfortable that some licences will be granted for more than a year without review. They are the most significant changes in licensing laws for years, and local authority and police services do not have any additional resources and will not be equipped to take on additional duties to monitor these licences for compliance without extra funding.

The proposal that local councils will have permission to revoke licences is, frankly, not good enough. Can the Minister clarify that local authorities and police forces locally have been allocated the necessary resources? Will these measures embed due regard to the rights of residents nearby, particularly those who are disabled or may be vulnerable young women, including the impact on women staff members? I was pleased that the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, referred to the danger of excessive availability late at night of cheap alcohol. As a former manager of drug and alcohol services, I agree wholeheartedly.

I am not convinced that communities, local authorities and police have been adequately consulted, particularly on the impact on people with disabilities and the environmental impact on their lives of these measures. Can the Minister say that residents, including those who are disabled, will be consulted—reaching out to all residents, including those for whom English may not be their first language? Will there be opportunities to express any dissent, and will a public reporting mechanism be established and made available in various locally relevant languages?

Finally, in support of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, and comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and other noble Lords, I agree that, even at this time of duress, this House must be assured of adherence to the fundamentals of the public sector equality duty, and thus respect all the prerequisites of ensuring compliance, not just by local authorities but by those who hold a licence. Throughout this pandemic, I have sought assurances from the Government that we heed local conditions and respect local needs, including those based on the population and its linguistic requirements, and consider lack of access to online services for a large section of our populations. I am confident that the Government will continue to honour this duty and ensure that public consultation materials, printed and online, are available in accessible formats—including Braille, audio and translated into some of the relevant languages—and made available on a variety of platforms, including ethnic minority media platforms.

Baroness Garden of Frognal Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees
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My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, has withdrawn, so I now call the noble Lord, Lord Balfe.

Lord Balfe Portrait Lord Balfe [V]
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I am indebted to my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe for giving me a new description, which I am proud to have, of having reached a more stately stage of life. I plead guilty to that.

Mention has been made by my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe and by others of the need to get the economy moving, that this is a temporary measure and all the rest. I ask noble Lords to remember that we are sending out terribly mixed messages. I happened to be in Cambridge station yesterday, and there people are still being advised not to travel. They are still saying that you should stay at home, at the same time as the Government are saying that you should now suddenly not stay at home.

I do not accept that this will make that much difference. I referred earlier to the Office for National Statistics survey, which shows quite clearly that a very large number of people—indeed, a majority—have no intention of going back to an enclosed restaurant in the foreseeable future. We need to distinguish between a temporary measure and what I am beginning to sense is almost a panic measure—the belief that, if we pass this Bill, suddenly everybody will go back to restaurants; that is not necessarily true.

I make another point about my tour of Mill Road, Cambridge, which I introduced in the first series of amendments. I did a very close survey of it in connection with the alcohol licence I mentioned earlier, which was opposed. There are two, if not three shops in Mill Road which are owned by Muslims, and two of them, at least, do not, on principle, sell alcohol. The idea that seems to be punted around that everybody wants to sell alcohol as a way of getting back to normal is not necessarily true. There are shopkeepers that do not wish to sell alcohol but to make a living selling groceries.

I also welcome Amendment 17, in the name of my noble friend, Lord Holmes, in particular the provision that asks local authorities to visit the area. There is no real substitute for local people, particularly local councillors, looking at an area where an application has been made and applying some common-sense judgment. I would say that that is common-sense judgment very much bearing in mind the broad guidelines put forward by my noble friend Lord Blencathra. Some people will ask, “How wide should it be?”, so those guidelines are extremely important, but it is also important that local government and local councillors are made accountable for the decisions in their area. You cannot have local democracy if you are constantly falling back on saying, “Oh well, the Minister says this, the Minister has said that”. So I welcome that, and I think “the local authority must” is an important element.

17:00
I have two questions for the Minister. First, only seven days is given for this process, which has been widely regarded as, let us say, a very short timetable. Will the local authority have the right to reject an application on the grounds that it needs a longer period to consult local people? I am thinking that if an application went in on a Thursday evening and it had to be determined by the following Thursday, that would not give enough time for publicity and for the council to make a decision. So will that be a legitimate temporary rejection where the local authority needs longer to consult?
Secondly, mention has been made of empty premises. Very good—but can the Minister confirm that, if tables are put outside empty premises, it must be with the agreement of the owner of the empty premises? In other words, just because a shop is empty does not mean that the shop next door that happens to be selling alcohol or food can therefore just put tables outside it. Will the Minister accept that, if they are to be put outside an empty premises, the application has to be accompanied by an agreement from the owner or lessee of the premises to have the tables put outside? I look forward to the Minister’s reply.
Lord Shipley Portrait Lord Shipley (LD) [V]
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My Lords, I remind the House that I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association. My name is attached to Amendment 25. The noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, reminded us of the importance and the meaning of the words “guidance”, “may” and “consider”, while my noble friend Lady Thomas of Winchester reminded us that guidance can be unenforceable and that we need something much more explicit when we reach Report. I agree with them both.

The issue is the safety of pedestrians in two respects: the physical safety of pedestrians to prevent them risking an accident to themselves and the safety of pedestrians against the potential transmission of coronavirus by enabling two pedestrians to pass each other at least one metre distant. So will the Government review the Bill before Report to ensure that the powers really exist for local authorities to maintain public safety on pavements?

Lord Sheikh Portrait Lord Sheikh [V]
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My Lords, I support Amendment 25 relating to the two requirements that have been stated. I reiterate what I said when I spoke on Amendment 11: I support the Bill, which will trigger the revitalisation of our businesses and help the well-being of the people. However, it is necessary for us to implement the changes with caution. My concern is safety of passage and accessibility by blind and disabled persons. In addition, of course, all pedestrians must be able to pass without hindrance where there is a gathering of customers outside a restaurant or pub.

Blind persons have felt less independent since the lockdown rules were implemented and, if there is an increase in street furniture, blind and partially sighted people may be forced to walk in the road, change their route, avoid travelling independently or even stay at home. Street furniture will present additional challenges and should be marked off with an accessible barrier. The idea of marking off the areas will ensure accessibility. Furthermore, if the appropriate distances are maintained, it will help pedestrians to walk without difficulty and prevent the spread of the virus. Adequate spacing will also enable disabled persons to go through without much difficulty.

As a Muslim, my other concern is the passage of Muslim ladies who may be subjected to harassment, particularly if they are wearing a hijab, niqab or burka. Most hate-crime incidents happen in the street and if the accessibility and passage of these ladies are blocked or hindered in any way, my concern is that they may be picked on by customers, especially if they have had a lot to drink. I have been informed by Fiyaz Mughal and Iman Atta of Tell MAMA that, since the lockdown was eased, there has been a spike in the number of cases where Muslim women have been abused and spat at in the street. In fact, I have been told by Tell MAMA that there has been a threefold increase in hate crimes against Muslims, and some of the incidents are unfortunately nasty and aggressive. I hope that the Minister will agree to Amendment 25.

Lord Adonis Portrait Lord Adonis (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, every speaker in this debate so far, from the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, onwards, has emphasised the importance of safe arrangements on pavements both for pedestrians, particularly those who have impairments, and for those sitting outside under the new arrangements, with the new licences allowing tables and chairs to be set up outside places of refreshment.

I do not have anything to add to those points. I simply note that some noble Lords have said that we should be mindful of the fact that these are only temporary arrangements, but we do not know that. It is perfectly possible that they will go on for many months, because we just do not know what the course of the virus is going to be. So I absolutely do not think we should legislate less precisely for the arrangements because we think that they may apply for only a short time. It could well be that in a year’s time the arrangements and licences still apply.

However, it is vital that the law is clear about what the licences are going to contain, and it is that which I want to speak on. When the noble Earl, Lord Howe, replied to the debate last week, he said, in response to concerns that were raised at Second Reading about arrangements for pavements, that a national condition would be imposed,

“taking account of … section 3.1 of the Department for Transport’s Inclusive Mobility guidance. This sets out the recommended minimum footway widths and distances required for access by mobility-impaired and visually impaired people.”—[Official Report, 6/7/20; col. 969.]

When the noble Earl said that, it rang alarm bells in my mind. I remember when I was Secretary of State for Transport having to deal with an extremely difficult case of an accident, which led to a very serious injury, that was caused by a lack of clarity in the department’s guidance as to what minimum footway widths should be. Indeed, I remember looking at the guidance and believing that it should be updated. Due to the passage of time, I cannot now remember why it was not.

I have been back to look at the guidance and it brought back all the details of the case itself, which of course could happen on many occasions if licences are granted under the Inclusive Mobility guidance. It looks to me as if the 2005 guidance has not been updated: perhaps the Minister could confirm that. I could not find any record of it being updated—but if it has, perhaps he could point us to the updating. If noble Lords will forgive me, I will read section 3.1 to the Committee, because it is so important to the point about what is going to be contained in these licences.

The guidance says under the heading “Widths”:

“A clear width of 2000mm allows two wheelchairs to pass one another comfortably. This should be regarded as the minimum under normal circumstances. Where this is not possible because of physical constraints 1500mm could be regarded as the minimum acceptable under most circumstances, giving sufficient space for a wheelchair user and a walker to pass one another.”


That already brings in an ambiguity, on which I would like the Minister to respond. Will local authorities regard 2,000 millimetres or 1,500 millimetres as the minimum? Under the guidance, it could be either. However, the confusion gets greater still. It continues:

“The absolute minimum, where there is an obstacle”—


although “an obstacle” is not defined under the guidance—

“should be 1000mm clear space … It is also recommended that there should be minimum widths of 3000mm at bus stops and 3500mm to 4500mm by shops though it is recognized that available space will not always be sufficient to achieve these dimensions.”

The guidance is as clear as mud. Five different widths are specified in it but none is given priority. We are told that anything from 1,000 millimetres to 4,500 millimetres might be regarded as appropriate. The Committee should take particular note of the fact that the widest width—4,500 millimetres—is given in respect of shops, which will indeed be the premises that we are talking about almost exclusively in the case of this guidance. To double the confusion, it also says:

“The maximum length of restricted width”—


which of course is also vital; the restrictions apply not just to the width but to the length—

“should be 6 metres”,

and that is given without qualification, but of course many of the premises that we are talking about might be longer than six metres.

Therefore, my question for the Minister is: which of the various potential stipulations in the 2005 guidance will apply in respect of these licences? The noble Earl, Lord Howe, said that the national condition would take account of section 3.1: what exactly is it taking account of? It is now very clear to me that it could be taking account of any one of six different, and in many respects contradictory, aspects of the guidance. On Report, the Government should come forward with an amendment that specifies the precise widths that will apply, and it should be more precise than the guidance. We must remember that the guidance was intended for exceptional purposes, whereas we are now talking about what will become quite a common occurrence in respect of our high streets and side streets.

The guidance makes no reference whatever to physical barriers—a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, in his Amendment 2. If we are talking about the widespread introduction of pavement facilities for customers in cafés, pubs and so on, I think that the case for segregation is very strong, not just to make things safer—although it will do so—but to delineate very clearly the limits of the seating area. If there is not a physical barrier, those will not be clear, and we all know that people will spill out beyond them.

The 2005 guidance makes no reference whatever to barriers. If there is to be a provision in respect of barriers—a point very well made by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, and others—that has to be a wholly new provision over and above the provisions of the Department for Transport’s existing guidance on inclusive mobility.

I have just asked the Minister a very precise set of questions, which I hope he can respond to when he sums up.

17:15
Baroness Pinnock Portrait Baroness Pinnock [V]
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It is very interesting to follow the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and his very detailed questions about the distances currently set out in guidance for the highways authorities. I, and I am sure others, look forward to hearing from the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh—perhaps in a letter to us all—how these different distances will be handled with pavement licensing.

This group contains a very important set of amendments, to which I hope the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, will be able to give a positive response. The daily difficulties described by my noble friend Lady Thomas of Winchester and the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and others amply illustrate why these amendments ought to be adopted by the Government.

In my own council of Kirklees, pavement licences already include a requirement for barriers. These not only clearly delineate the area in use and prevent a gradual expansion of the site but give a physical barrier for those with sight impairments. They also ensure adequate room for pedestrians, especially those needing space, such as parents with buggies, wheelchair users and people who need walking aids. As the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, said, it is simply not good enough to use words such as “may” and “consider”, as the noble Earl, Lord Howe, did in response at Second Reading. These are vital changes and the words used have to be “must” and “will”. We on these Benches wholeheartedly support the amendment to ensure that barriers are in place around pavement licence areas and that sufficient room is provided for pedestrians, while keeping to social distancing guidelines. There should be no ifs and no buts.

Amendment 25, which stands in my name and those of my noble friends Lord Shipley and Lady Thomas of Winchester and the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, is explicit in its requirement for barriers to show the extent of the area and to enable pedestrians to continue to use pavements for their purpose. There is a danger that pavement licences will result in pedestrians being forced into the road. For clarity, I have been asked by my noble friend Lady Thomas of Winchester to point out that electric scooters, as raised by the noble Lord, Lord Harris, are intended to be used only on roads, not pavements, while electric mobility scooters are intended for use on pavements, not roads. The changes set out in Amendment 25 would resolve these issues. They are so important to many of us that, if there is no movement by the Government to address them, we will bring the matter back on Report and will be prepared to divide the House.

We must be careful that consultations to ensure changes that benefit one group do not inadvertently impair the needs of others; hence Amendment 6 in my name would make sure that applications were well publicised. Furthermore, as this legislation could make life even more difficult for disabled people, it is vital that applications are published in an accessible format. People have a right to know and to comment. The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, which proposes enabling the revocation of a licence, is important and makes good sense as a means of dealing with the few who fail to act responsibly. I also support the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, who suggested that government should let go of the control strings and allow councils to take, and be accountable for, local decisions.

Many of us across the Committee are very concerned about these issues and hope that the Minister will be able to indicate a substantial change by the Government in the direction that we propose in Amendments 6 and 25.

Baroness Wilcox of Newport Portrait Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, I draw attention to my interests as noted in the register. Despite my deep and continuing roots in local government, I am afraid I am not able to say that I am a vice-president of the LGA. Who knows? Maybe one day.

We welcome the clauses in the Bill to allow pubs and restaurants to obtain pavement licences more easily. We have heard a wide range of views from noble Lords in this debate. The hospitality industry continues to suffer from restrictions in its capacity, and I am sure the whole Committee is keen to support steps to allow pubs and restaurants to serve a greater range of customers. However, it is imperative that with the increase of pavement licences, precautions are taken to minimise any adverse consequences. Safety and accessibility are paramount, and I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, has tabled a series of amendments with this in mind. His point regarding inclusive design was extremely well made, as was his question regarding updated guidance in our post-Covid environment.

The noble Lord is not alone in raising these issues, and I note that the RNIB and Guide Dogs for the Blind have raised similar concerns. His expertise in this area is clearly invaluable, as is that of the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, who made the point that guidance is often ignored and legislators must think more positively to allow disabled people to move around safety. I take particular interest in Amendment 5, which stresses the importance of compliance with the Equality Act, and I would appreciate clarification from the Minister of how statute already provides for this.

The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, raised the interesting proposal of allowing outdoor seating outside unused premises. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s thoughts on this, but I hope that in doing so he considers the implications of this for the concerns raised elsewhere over safety.

I also take interest in Amendment 12, which raises the point that any changes must allow for social distancing. I am sure the Minister will agree that these issues must be considered together by businesses, local authorities and the Government to ensure that they are resolved. With each of these concerns, it is clear that legislation will not provide all the answers. It is incumbent upon local authorities, as was so clearly put by my noble friend Lord Harris, who has a laser-like focus on what town halls can and cannot do. He made an important point about a seven-day consultation period and the problems that residents have to deal with as a result of not knowing what has changed in their community.

As further premises gain pavement licences, it is crucial that the Government engage with local authorities to consider whether they can offer any support and do not merely issue a diktat from above. A main learning outcome from this dreadful pandemic is the clear dependence that central government has upon local government in carrying out the laws and regulations made by the Governments of the four nations. Without the practical support of local government, much of what happens here simply would not happen. Local authorities will no doubt work, as ever, in partnership with local businesses, disability groups and, as we have in Wales, public service boards, working jointly to improve our areas. As noted in the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, and the detailed elucidation by my noble friend Lord Adonis, Parliament must remain alert to any further issues which may arise, such as the inclusion of 1,500 millimetres apart guidance, thus changing an unworkable solution into a workable solution.

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)
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My Lords, I thank my noble friends Lady McIntosh of Pickering and Lady Neville-Rolfe for the important measures proposed to support the hospitality sector. It employs some 2 million people. However, this group of amendments relates to the need to maintain access on the highway for all users, especially those with a disability. The Government strongly agree that this is an issue of great importance. As the noble Lord, Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, put it, no one should be left behind and we need to proceed with appropriate caution.

My noble friend Lord Blencathra has done extensive research into the guidance on the different standards, which was noted by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, and the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, mentioned the Inclusive Mobility guidance of 2005 and the different standards included in that guidance. It is very important to retain local flexibilities so that local authorities can assess the distance needed for the location of the premises and the type of street involved. There needs to be that flexibility rather than having uniform guidance.

Amendment 21, tabled by my noble friend Lord Blencathra, would require pavement licence guidance requiring minimum distances as part of a national condition to be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. My noble friend also raised concerns about inclusive mobility. I am happy to tell the Committee that we have accepted the recommendation of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee that national conditions should be contained in regulations subject to the negative resolution procedure. I hope that my noble friend is comforted that this will help address parliamentary scrutiny. Clause 5(6) gives the Secretary of State power to publish conditions for pavement licences. This is to be replaced with a power for the Secretary of State to make provision about national conditions by regulations subject to the negative resolution procedure. We will also accept the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s recommendation in relation to the powers to extend measures in the Bill to ensure that the effects of coronavirus form part of that consideration.

We have listened to the concerns raised at Second Reading and today in Committee and have noted the strength of feeling in this Chamber that more must be done to address accessibility issues. We intend to table an amendment on Report to address those concerns. We believe that putting this into the legislation will provide an important safeguard to ensure that authorities act in accordance with their legal obligations to protect the interests of disabled people.

Amendments 2, 12 and 25 were tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, and the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, and were spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and my noble friend Lord Naseby. Amendment 2 would require the inclusion of a barrier to separate furniture from the pavement to allow the safe passage of pedestrians. Introducing barriers to separate furniture may improve navigation for the visually impaired, but it can also cause further obstructions on the pavement which would inhibit others, including the mobility impaired. The Government are clear that access must be maintained for all users of the highway, including the visually impaired and the mobility impaired. All pavement licences will have an express or, in default, deemed no obstruction condition, along with a condition explicitly requiring clear routes of access, taking into account the needs of disabled persons.

Amendment 12 requires that where possible the minimum pavement width required must be increased to allow two pedestrians to pass each other while socially distancing. We fully support the intention, which is why the pavement licence guidance refers to the government guidance on Covid-19 safe public places. The measures for social distancing set out in the guidance will have to change over time depending on the circumstances. It is important that the legislation does not restrict businesses’ ability to align with it and therefore it is more appropriate to address this through guidance.

For reasons that I have set out, I am not able to accept Amendments 2, 12 and 25. I hope that my noble friend Lord Holmes will withdraw Amendment 2 and that he and the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, will chose not to move their amendments when they are called.

Amendment 20, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, seeks to establish a specific requirement that the Secretary of State should have to take into account the needs of the disabled, including the blind and the partially sighted, when setting any national conditions. Related to this, my noble friend Lord Holmes, supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, has tabled Amendment 5. The intention of this amendment is to require that when applying for a pavement licence, applicants must ensure that the application is compliant with the provisions of the Equality Act 2010 and any relevant regulations or guidance under that Act.

My noble friend Lord Holmes also tabled Amendment 17, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, to place duties on the authority to investigate concerns over accessibility where a licence is granted, revoking the licence if necessary. I assure noble Lords that businesses that provide services to the public must comply with their duties under the Equality Act 2010, as must local authorities because they are public authorities. As these parties are already under specific legal duties, it is not necessary to include a specific reference to the Equality Act in the Bill or specifically reference taking into account the needs of disabled people in the setting of any national condition. A local authority will need to have regard to these duties if concerns are raised over the accessibility of a pavement. The legislation already includes powers for local authorities to revoke if a licence holder has breached any conditions of the licence. This includes no-obstruction and clear-access conditions. For the reasons I have set out, I am not able to accept these amendments, and I hope that noble Lords will therefore choose not to move them when they are called.

17:30
I turn to Amendments 6, 7 and 8—tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, and the noble Lords, Lord Low and Lord Holmes—regarding the consultation process. These amendments would require local authorities to publish details of applications online in an accessible format and specify that the consultation period should not start until they have done so. The Government agree that the consultation should be accessible, which is why the Bill requires authorities to publish both the application and the fact that representations can be made. In doing so, they will need to meet the requirements set out in the Public Sector Bodies (Websites and Mobile Applications) (No. 2) Accessibility Regulations 2018, which are already in force. A public authority will be bound to act fairly and in the public interest, and so publish as soon as possible. Our draft guidance makes it clear that appropriate methods of publication include online methods and that authorities should consider the needs of those who may find it more difficult to access online publications. We are working with the RNIB and the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association to refine the guidance. I take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, about the importance of linguistic requirements and the use of Braille and audio. For the reasons I have set out, I am not able to accept these amendments, and I hope that noble Lords will therefore choose not to move them when they are called.
I turn finally to Amendment 4, tabled by my noble friend Lord Lucas, concerning pavements outside empty premises; it was supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb. As the Bill is currently drafted, applicants can already apply for a licence for premises that are currently empty or apply to put furniture on the highway in front of adjacent empty premises. For the reasons I have set out, I am not able to accept this amendment, and I hope that my noble friend will therefore choose not to move it when it is called.
A number of noble Lords mentioned extending the consultation period from seven to 14 days. I propose to address the points made by my noble friend Lord Balfe, the noble Lord, Lord Harris, and the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, during the debate on the next group of amendments. I will leave it there.
Baroness Henig Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Henig) (Lab)
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I have received a request to speak after the Minister from the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra.

Lord Blencathra Portrait Lord Blencathra [V]
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My Lords, it would be churlish of me not to intervene at this stage and thank my noble friend the Minister most sincerely for his excellent concession in saying that these national guidelines will now be subject to parliamentary scrutiny via the negative resolution procedure. I chair the Delegated Powers Committee. This is an excellent and very welcome concession.

We make laws in two ways in this country, or we should do—Acts of Parliament and statutory instruments—but in the past few years we have seen a worrying trend of guidance having legal force and a new invention, which we will come to in a Bill very shortly, of something called “protocols”, which are legally enforceable. These are just clever euphemisms for what should be regulations. I am delighted that my noble friend the Minister will put these on a statutory basis. I also look forward to his amendment next week in time to set minimum guidelines for access on pavements.

In the meantime, I thank my noble friend most sincerely for this excellent change of heart today.

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh
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I thank my noble friend for his comments. Of course, I noted the points about the need for a minimum access requirement.

Lord Holmes of Richmond Portrait Lord Holmes of Richmond [V]
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I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this interesting debate. First, I thank my noble friend the Minister for his change of heart on the footing of the guidance and his commitment to bringing forward an amendment on Report; all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate will certainly wait so see the nature and extent of it.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, for his excellent speech. He made his point perfectly clearly: we should make Acts of Parliament and statutory instruments that are clear and to the point. His setting out of how guidance can get into trouble with a whole series of different lengths and distances made the point clearly, to the extent that, if at any stage the noble Lord cared to make that film, I would be happy to take part in it with him; there could be no greater way of demonstrating how not to go about things.

I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson and Lady Thomas of Winchester, for their interventions. It has been made clear in the debate that, at their heart, these amendments essentially have nothing to do with disability and disabled people. They have pertinence to disabled people only because we are the individuals on whom this stuff bites if it is not got right. It is no more significant for a disabled person seeking access than for a man pushing a double buggy or a woman from a store down the road pushing a trolley full of goods to get to the other branch around the corner.

I am sure that my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe did not intend to make this point, but there is no sense whatever that economic activity, economic growth and economic motoring are any sense diametrically opposed to inclusive design and accessibility. Inclusive design is the bedrock for the best economy and society that we can build. Inclusion is in no sense a clog at the heel of economic activity; it is the basis on which a better, more prosperous economy and a more integrated and prosperous society is built.

To the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, I say this: my noble friend made perfectly clearly the point as to how inclusive design and economic activity go hand in hand in the specific case of the situation in Berlin. We really need to see from my noble friend the Minister amendments on Report that can have us all saying when it comes to pavement dining and pavement socialising, “Ich bin ein Berliner.”

On the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Harris, his forensic analysis is spot on. With modern techniques, there is absolutely no reason why consultation should be seen and characterised as a laborious process. Things can be done in real time by connecting to the people who are in the vicinity and have particular expertise to bring to bear on the consultation on a specific issue. Similarly, the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, was spot on with his laser focus on exactly the point at hand: ensuring that the guidance is not only fit for purpose but takes into account the current context.

It is interesting that most of the arguments about the need to get on with this seem to fit very well with the previous group, in terms of enabling small, independent breweries to have licences, with an aim to get on with it and drive economy activity in that way. But I will leave that to one side and come back to it on Report.

In conclusion, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in this debate. In essence, none of these amendments asks for anything other than for every policy practice, procedure and area to be predicated on inclusive design—not because of Covid but because that should have always been the case in every situation. Either we build back together or we do not build back anything that is worth while and sustainable and that optimises social activity and economic growth. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 2 withdrawn.
Amendments 3 and 4 not moved.
Clause 1 agreed.
Baroness Henig Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this or any other amendment in this group to a Division should make that clear in debate.

Clause 2: Applications

Amendments 5 to 8 not moved.
Amendment 9
Moved by
9: Clause 2, page 2, line 32, leave out “7” and insert “14”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment extends the public consultation period for pavement licence applications from 7 days to 14 days.
Lord Low of Dalston Portrait Lord Low of Dalston [V]
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My Lords, I wish to speak to Amendment 14 in this group. Applications that have not been decided by local authorities within 10 working days are automatically deemed to have been granted for a period of one year. This is too long and could mean automatic approval for a significant proportion of licences and the volume of applications overwhelming local authorities. Combined with the absence of an opportunity to appeal, the automatic approval process risks allowing hazardous street furniture being permitted inappropriately in inappropriate locations.

If the automatic approval process is to be retained, the period should be reduced to three months in order that licences should not be approved automatically for an excessive period of time and in order to give local authorities the opportunity to revisit licences that have been approved simply due to a lack of resources within a reasonable period of time. Therefore, I would be most grateful for the Minister’s serious consideration of this amendment, and I would be grateful to other noble Lords for their support of it in the course of this debate. I beg to move.

Lord Holmes of Richmond Portrait Lord Holmes of Richmond [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 13, 15 and 16 in this group, which build on the discussion we have just had. Amendment 13 would put in a right of appeal similar to what was discussed in a previous group but in the context of the situation ably set out by the noble Lord, Lord Low, for his amendment.

Amendment 15 changes the date in the Bill from 2021 to 2020 for precisely the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Low, set out. We may be in extraordinary times and certain measures can be changed but I do not believe that it is proportionate at this stage to have a wave-through to 2021. It would be more appropriate to set a date of 2020, and that is what Amendment 15 seeks to achieve.

Amendment 16 brings out again the whole question of consultation and its being properly undertaken with the potential to incorporate views as expressed. It echoes many of the points made in the previous group around consultation. These amendments are specific to this group and to this Bill, but the reality is that these amendments are good not just for this time but for all times, in the sense of enabling full participation, full inclusion and full enablement for all across society.

There is precious little wealth in an argument that tries to push through at pace—understandably—and in so doing states that this is only a temporary measure and thus does not matter, and that we can suspend issues around inclusion, accessibility and full participation. If inclusion and inclusive design matter, and I believe they do, as I am sure everybody in your Lordships’ House does, then they matter for a second, an hour and a day as much as they matter for a month or a year.

17:45
Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas [V]
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My Lords, Amendments 22 and 23 are intended to offer the Government an opportunity to outline how a district authority can take full advantage of this Bill when the highways are controlled by a county authority. Without any permissions or discussions whatever, I take the example of my native town of Eastbourne. Grove Road has a lot of cafes in it; the pavements are narrow and the traffic is fairly continuous. There is no way in which the cafes can spill on to the pavements. However, if we can close the road, as is easy to do because there are good workarounds for traffic that would not cause any great problem, we suddenly become able to offer all those businesses the opportunity for profitable trade.

However, in doing this, the district has to work with the county. I would like to see workable arrangements that enable the district to say what they want to happen and for the county to enable that without delay and argument.

Baroness Grey-Thompson Portrait Baroness Grey-Thompson [V]
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My Lords, I have nothing further to add on this amendment at this time.

Lord Harris of Haringey Portrait Lord Harris of Haringey
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My lords, I have put my name to Amendments 15, 16 19, 22 and 23. The Bill allows applications for a pavement licence, and it says that they are deemed to have been approved if the local authority has not determined the matter within seven days. That approval then lasts until September 2021. This is not a temporary fix; it is quite a long-term fix. I think most local residents will find it pretty extraordinary that if, by default, something has not been considered or determined by the local authority, it will stand until September next year. These are the people who will be directly, and potentially, very adversely, affected by the outcome.

Clause 2(7) says that the clock starts from the day on which the application is “sent” to the local authority. I am not sure that many people will send such applications by post, but the difference between the date sent and the date received is potentially significant. Why does the Bill not specify that the time limit runs from the receipt of application?

Amendment 15 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, limits such an automatic approval of a licence to September of this year. That would no doubt meet the requirements in the remarks that the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, is about to make, and it would allow something to happen now. However, it would also mean that the matter could be reviewed in due time, and I would have thought this was a modest amendment that must make sense.

In my view, Amendment 16 goes to the heart of these issues. These determinations should—and, in my view, must—take account of the consultation with those who are going to be affected by them. Like me, the Minister has been a council leader. I doubt whether, in his time in this role, he would have been very happy not to consider or take account of the views of local residents affected by a proposal. I know that, sometimes, matters of high politics might mean that you wish to override them, but most of the time you will want to listen to local residents and to those who are going to be directly inconvenienced by the changes that you are agreeing. You will want to listen to those who are going to be adversely affected by noise or any rowdyism and anti-social behaviour, and to those who are going to be affected because people are—and I will use the phrase that I used in a previous group of amendments—urinating and defecating on their property. Let us not pretend it will not happen; that is what will happen, particularly in the absence of proper policing resources and local authority enforcement resources.

I ask the Minister again: what are the estimated extra costs that local authorities will face in their enforcement role to manage these changes and what will be the cost of extra policing? That is why my noble friend Lady Wilcox of Newport’s amendment is so important. Clause 5(6) gives the Secretary of State the power to publish conditions for pavement licences. Will local authorities and their associations be consulted about those conditions? Will they be given the enforcement resources they need? Again, what guarantees are there that the police will have the officers to ensure that suitable order is maintained as a result of the licences?

Finally, I have signed Amendments 22 and 23 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, which acknowledge that, as a result of these licences, people will spill over into the highway or be forced to do so to get around those availing themselves of what is provided. Public safety may require that parking and speed limits be adjusted. That would require the highway authority, which may well not be the same as the local authority, to make adjustments. Similarly, transport operators—those running the bus services—may have to alter their schedules or make minor adjustments to routes to ensure that people are safe. The amendments would require that such discussions took place. Again, they seem modest, and I hope that the Minister can accept them.

Baroness Noakes Portrait Baroness Noakes
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My Lords, I hesitate to be predictable; the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, has partly predicted what I will say. I am concerned that some of the amendments will make the process of applying for a licence more difficult and the process of getting one unattractive. In particular, if an automatic licence is granted for a very short time, it is of no real use to a hospitality business, which will probably have to invest in further tables and chairs and so on to operate outside, because not all can move outside the tables that they have inside. The amendments work against the spirit of the Bill, which is to try to get the economy going again.

We should not embellish the Bill with lots of extra things that have to be taken into account. There are already significant powers for local authorities to deal with these applications. Local authorities may have to get a bit more agile and deal with applications a bit more quickly than they have in the past. My impression of local government, never having been closely involved in it, is that it is not very agile. I will probably get into trouble with my husband when I get home because he chairs a planning committee, sits on a licensing committee and probably would not recognise my characterisation of lack of agility, but in these difficult times local authorities should be prepared to get a move on and do whatever they need to do to protect their local residents. They do not need any changes to this Bill to do so.

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Portrait Baroness McIntosh of Pickering [V]
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My Lords, I have sympathy with what my noble friend Lady Noakes has just said, but I have lent my support to Amendment 16 in the name of my noble friend Lord Holmes. It is appropriate that a local authority should be able to include conditions when granting pavement licences in line with any concerns expressed in the public consultation—with the proviso that the consultation takes only seven days, so I am afraid that I do not support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Low. However, my noble friend Lady Noakes had a point when she said that such conditions should not be so restrictive as to make a nonsense of what is requested in the licence being applied for. I hope that common sense in this regard will prevail.

Lord Balfe Portrait Lord Balfe [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I do not agree with my noble friend Lady Noakes: we are not trying to make it more difficult; as I see it, we are trying to get the balance right. I referred in my initial speech to the changes in the regulations—what I think of as the Blair/Jowell reforms—which opened up our high streets to a wild west of alcohol licensing. One thing those measures had in common with this legislation is that they came into force in August. We are proposing to bring this into force at precisely the time when local authorities are going for their summer break—indeed, at precisely the time when we are going for our summer break. By my definition of local authorities getting “a move on”, extending the consultation from seven to 14 days is quite reasonable; I do not think that it is difficult at all. If someone sends an application by second-class post and gets their proof of posting at 5 pm on a Friday, it is unlikely to get there before the next Tuesday—particularly in Cambridge—so we are not even giving seven days. Seven days from date of receipt would be bad enough, but seven days from posting is just not enough.

I asked in my previous contribution whether people who wished to extend in front of unused shops would need to get the permission of their lessee or owner. That is an important point, because otherwise we are basically saying that a premises can just expand on to next door’s territory without any agreement.

I asked earlier, and did not get an answer, whether a local authority could reject an application because it had not had enough time to consider it. In other words, if it arrived on a Tuesday and was due to be determined on a Friday, and it is August and everybody is on holiday, could the authority say, “No, we reject it. We need another seven or 14 days to consider it”?

Amendment 16 states that conditions may

“incorporate views and concerns expressed in the public consultation under section 2.”

How will those views and concerns be gathered? If the local authority asks for views and concerns, it will effectively be giving the general public 24 or maybe 48 hours and then it will have to meet to decide what to do with the public consultation. We keep hearing about the need to open up the economy, but the majority of people in Britain do not feel safe going into a restaurant as it is. I do not agree that the economy will be opened up by this legislation. What we will get is basically another version of the wild west. We need to legislate at a reasonable pace, because if we do so in haste, we will regret at leisure. That is what happened in the earlier, 2003-04 experiment and it is what we are heading for here. Please let us take this at a reasonable pace.

Lord Carlile of Berriew Portrait Lord Carlile of Berriew [V]
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My Lords, the points I would have wished to make in this group of amendments have already been made skilfully by others and I see no need to repeat them. All I would say is that I absolutely support and adopt the approach taken and submissions made by the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey. The noble Lord said extremely skilfully what I would have tried to say, so I have nothing further to add.

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Portrait Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Non-Afl)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, when the noble Lord, Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, spoke on the previous group, he said he had visited an establishment over the weekend. I share with noble Lords that I went to four establishments over the weekend and found them all very busy. I was pleased to “eat out to help out” as much as I did.

I do not know whether any noble Lords tuned into local London news last night, but it was interesting that the images of Soho this weekend were much different from those we saw the weekend before. One of the small establishment owners interviewed on “BBC London News” was very compelling in what he said about the tables and chairs outside his business making a massive difference to whether it would be able to survive.

18:00
I direct my comments mainly at Amendment 16 in this group, which I have some sympathy with. At Second Reading I said that release of lockdown and the return of some of our liberties was a moment to renew our individual responsibilities and restate some of the standards critical to a good, functioning society. I think it is fair to say that public consultations can often seem a bit meaningless to people, and a seven-day consultation will not provide much scope for people’s input.
That said, I am mindful of the comments made by other noble Lords that this legislation is temporary and its purpose is to kick-start our economy, so I do not seek to extend the consultation period in the way that some other noble Lords have suggested. I implore all responsible business owners and local authorities to take every opportunity, during the procedures and processes that will follow once this legislation is enacted, to demonstrate to local people that they care about addressing the potential negatives and nuisances that we know are a real blight for some people, such as litter, noise and the other troubling practices that the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, referred to. If we are not to extend the consultation, we need to make sure that those who will make it possible for these changes to happen demonstrate to their local communities that they understand what matters to them and that local businesses will very much take all that into account.
As I am sure all noble Lords do, I have huge faith in small business owners, but I also want owners of bigger businesses to recognise their responsibilities and that the managers of their branches and local premises are local leaders in their area too. Big businesses should ensure that their local managers understand their responsibilities and their status in their local communities.
Lord Hayward Portrait Lord Hayward (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I first thank the noble Earl for his letter, which he sent in response to a number of the comments I made on Second Reading. I greatly appreciate the consideration that both he and the officials have given to the variety of points I made at the time.

I pick up on the response the Minister gave on one particular matter in the last group of amendments. I considered putting in to speak on both these groups but decided to concentrate on just one. On the question of marking out, possibly by some form of barrier, I acknowledge that you could create a real difficulty in blocking pavements by putting in another barrier, but in this day and age when you can rope off sections, the vast majority of establishments would not take up a large area by doing so. I ask the Minister not to mandate a requirement, but to encourage all restaurants to give serious consideration to some form of identification or demarcation of an area.

On these amendments and the comments by my noble friend Lord Balfe and the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, we are talking here about restaurants and events in the summer. I support her in her observations on the comments made on the radio yesterday about Soho; it was a marked change. On an earlier group, the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, made the comment that, as far she could assess, the problems in Richmond in most cases arose not specifically from the pubs or restaurants, but from off-sales and people wandering around areas with drink they had bought in an off-licence rather than a restaurant.

On the timescales involved, I have sympathy with the issue of seven to 14 days, particularly at this time of year, and do not necessarily believe that it would be unfair on an applicant. We are dealing with the summer. It is important that we make progress because, after all is said and done, summer in Britain does not last very long. If we delay unduly, the restaurants will not get the benefit, but it is difficult for a council and residents to register concerns.

Having said that, I have a point in relation to what the noble Lord, Lord Harris, said. I have in front of me a letter from one of the central London councils. It is a parking offence and is not mine but my lodger’s. It was sent out by the council and says it starts counting from the day it was sent; I think that is standard procedure for notices. My lodger was told he had to make the payment within the set days. Although I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Harris, about some matters, what is relevant here is that at this time of year it is difficult for residents and councils to deal with matters if an application goes to one or two people who happen to be on holiday. As my noble friend Lord Lucas said, it may involve different local authorities and there may need to be cross-consultation.

Unless there is a strong case for it to be seven days, I certainly support the idea that there should be 14 days of consultation rather than seven. Having said that, as I understand it, many of the obligations imposed as a result of these amendments are already imposed on applicants for such licences and the local authorities giving consideration to them. I am willing to be corrected on that, either by another supporter of the amendments or by the Minister.

Lord Naseby Portrait Lord Naseby [V]
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My Lords, my noble friend Lady Noakes should have been listened to. I say again that I lived opposite a pub; I knew the publican. I knew the local councillor for the ward in Islington. In my own ward, up in Highview, I knew where the pubs were. I cannot believe that in this day and age and at this point in time, the local councillors do not know which of their pubs are considering making use of this legislation. I am certain they do. Furthermore, I suspect all the local residents know exactly which pubs are likely to want to do this pavement extension business, so I say to my noble friends: we need to get on with it.

I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey. I remember the days when I was the leader of the London Borough of Islington and say that, if anything was stretched out, it was when we were discussing joint issues with Haringey—but that was a long time ago. Seven days is pretty reasonable at this point in time. I say to your Lordships: let us get on with it.

Baroness Pinnock Portrait Baroness Pinnock [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, administrative procedures do not necessarily excite interest but they are nevertheless important. If we get the processes right to meet the needs of all involved, there are likely to be fewer adverse consequences, to the benefit of both the applicant and those impacted. These amendments make the consultation process fairer by ensuring that the application provides sufficient time for comments to be made, and then requiring a response to the points made during a consultation. I am pleased to have signed the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Low, about pavement licences which are deemed to have consent due to the local licensing authority not having responded in the narrow window of time set out in the Bill. This does need to be just a three-month approval; if they are so deemed simply because the local authority is overwhelmed with applications, the local authority will be unable to give each one the consideration it deserves. A three-month deemed approval will be an incentive for applicants to give the local authority time, so that the applicant does not have to reapply within a short period. To give a week initially but gain nine months later would be a good deal for both parties.

There are costs for local authorities involved in these measures, and these need to be fully recompensed by the Government. Local authorities have demonstrated during this pandemic that they are able to make speedy and agile decisions. They also have a duty to consider all their residents, whose issues these measures address.

The safety issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, need some consideration, although it is not clear—to me, at least—how the changes he proposes are compatible with the purpose of the Bill to get flexibility for business within weeks, rather than the years it sometimes takes to change things such as speed limits. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, will provide a constructive way to address these issues on Report.

Baroness Wilcox of Newport Portrait Baroness Wilcox of Newport [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 19 in my name, and I will also refer to other amendments in this group. We can all recognise that the granting of pavement licences can have consequences for local communities, and through the application process we can best mitigate any unintended repercussions. A consultation in itself will not suffice—it must be open, accessible, and not merely a tick-box exercise.

The amendments in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Low, and the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, highlight the question of the time limit for pavement licences. The department has been keen to stress during the passage of this Bill that most measures are temporary; but can the same be said for the licences themselves? The intention behind Amendment 19 is to highlight the importance of the UK Government and local authorities working in tandem throughout the process. The Secretary of State must engage with councils while establishing the conditions for pavement licences and be receptive to any feedback received. As my noble friend Lord Harris remarked, local authorities must take account of the residents affected by any changes. Indeed, as a former council leader myself, I agree that if we fail to listen to and act upon the views of our residents, political demise will soon follow.

The enforcement role of local authorities is a similarly important point. Many teams in licensing and trading standards have been decimated by a decade of cuts to public services, and there may be simply not enough boots on the ground to facilitate this effectively. On the same theme, I also ask the Minister to consider how the Government intend to work with the devolved Administrations on these initiatives. While many of the provisions in this Bill do not relate to the whole of the UK, we can all accept that the borders between our nations are permeated by people visiting licensed premises, be it Chepstow in the south or Chirk in the north. Indeed, before the pandemic, more people moved daily between Cardiff, Newport and Bristol for work and leisure than between Liverpool and Manchester. Hence, the idea of the Western Gateway was initiated, and cross-border working for economic gains was developed by Welsh and English local government.

I also refer to the comments made by noble Lords about the time taken by some areas of local government to respond to matters. After dealing with a cut of almost 30% of my total budget, yet maintaining the level of services delivered by my council, I think it nothing short of miraculous that councils are still delivering to such high standards across the UK.

18:15
Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

First, I thank my noble friends Lady Noakes and Lord Hayward for asking us to get a move on—or, as my noble friend Lord Naseby put it, “Get on with it”—and my noble friend Lady Stowell for her vociferous eating out to help out over the weekend; it is much appreciated.

The noble Lord, Lord Harris, made several points concerning the importance of listening to residents; as a fellow former council leader, I know that that is of course absolutely critical and key to any consultation. I should point out that any additional costs and burdens which fall upon local authorities are covered by the new burdens doctrine as they arise. As someone who has more recently been a council leader, I know that these days, almost all applications are sent electronically, so the dates sent and received are identical in almost all cases. I also highlight that the Local Government Association is fully supportive of the measures proposed for the issuing of pavement licences.

Let me turn to the amendments in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, and the noble Lord, Lord Harris. This group of amendments addresses a range of issues relating to pavement licences. Amendment 19 seeks to ensure that the Secretary of State consults authorities if he chooses to publish a national condition. As I said to the House when discussing the previous group of amendments, we have already accepted the recommendation of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee that national conditions should be contained within regulations subject to the negative resolution procedure. I hope this addresses the issues raised by both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness.

I now turn Amendments 9 and 10, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Low, which deal with the consultation process. They would extend the public consultation period to 14 days rather than seven and provide that the period starts after the application has been published by the authority. The Government welcome the intent behind the amendments, which is that local communities have appropriate opportunity to comment on applications, and this is an important part of the process. Under the Bill, the seven-day consultation period starts the day after the application is made. The Bill requires the applicant, by posting a notice on the premises, and the authority, in such a manner as it deems appropriate, to publicise the fact that representations can be made during that period.

Authorities can choose to publish the application electronically, and this should make it easier to publish the application speedily. Extending the consultation period for more than seven days, however, would undermine a key benefit of this process, which is its speed. This temporary fast-track process strikes a balance between supporting businesses and responding to community interests by equipping authorities with local conditions and robust enforcement powers. For the reasons I have set out, I am not able to accept these amendments, and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Low, will withdraw Amendment 9 and choose not to move Amendment 10 when it is called.

Continuing the theme of consultation, Amendment 16 —in the names of my noble friends Lord Holmes and Lady McIntosh, the noble Lord, Lord Harris, and the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson—would allow local authorities to include conditions which incorporate concerns expressed in the consultation. As I have previously said, the ability to respond to local issues is important, which is why the Bill allows pavement licences to be granted by a local authority, subject to such conditions as it considers reasonable. Local authorities can already do what the amendment is seeking, and for this reason I cannot accept it.

I turn to Amendment 13, tabled by my noble friend Lord Holmes, which seeks to implement a right of appeal. It is right that authorities have the ability to control the effects of licences, whether deemed or granted. That is why deemed licences are subject to conditions published by authorities. Authorities can require licence holders to immediately remedy breaches of conditions and have the power to revoke licences where needed. For these reasons, I cannot accept this amendment.

Amendment 14, in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Low, and the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, seeks to reduce the duration of deemed licences to three months. I believe the intent is to allow greater flexibility to local authorities to manage public spaces and review the suitability of these licences. It is important to allow for local authority discretion, while providing certainty for businesses. This is why the Bill provides that a deemed licence has a duration of a year and robust enforcement powers where there are breaches. Licences can also be revoked if all or any part of the area of the relevant highway has become unsuitable for any purpose for which the licence was granted. We need to provide certainty to businesses, which is why three months is not long enough as a default position. For the reasons I have set out, I cannot accept the amendment.

The same is pertinent to Amendment 15—tabled by my noble friend Lord Holmes and the noble Lord, Lord Harris—to change the expiry date of these licences to the end of September 2020. For the same reason I gave for Amendment 14, I cannot accept this amendment.

I respond finally to Amendments 22 and 23, tabled by my noble friend Lord Lucas and the noble Lord, Lord Harris. These would provide authorities with duties and powers to make pavement trading safer, and the authority to facilitate successful implementation of a pavement licence. The Government take public safety seriously, which is why there is a range of provisions in the Bill to ensure highways safety. By virtue of the conditions imposed on all licences, licence holders must not do anything that prevents pedestrians passing along the highway. If conditions are breached or public safety risks arise, authorities can revoke licences.

The Government have published guidance on reallocating road space in response to Covid-19, which points to measures that can be taken to reduce speed limits and create pedestrianised zones. The pavement licence guidance makes it clear that, when determining applications, authorities will want to consider whether any such temporary measures are in place. There is already a requirement for the local authority to consult the highways authority. In combination, the requirements I have outlined clearly tackle the issues of road safety. For these reasons, I cannot accept this amendment.

Lord Russell of Liverpool Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I have received requests to speak after the Minister from the noble Lords, Lord Lucas and Lord Balfe.

Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that reply, but I did not gather how he expects the county authority to respond to a request from the district that a particular road should be closed to traffic to enable restaurants to spread on to the pavements and streets. We are looking to do things quickly. As others have remarked, timescales in such requests can stretch into years. We have been asking for permission to put a pedestrian crossing opposite the new conference centre we built. This opened a year and a half ago, but nothing has happened yet. We want these things to happen quickly. What in the Bill will make superior authorities react speedily?

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

There is nothing specific in the Bill on communication between lower-tier authorities and county councils, other than that the intention of it is to move speedily to support the hospitality industry. That is the underlying purpose of the measures we propose.

Lord Balfe Portrait Lord Balfe [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

In my contribution, and in the previous one, I asked first about the position of unused shops and whether there is a need for the applicant to have and submit the permission of the owner or lessee of the shop, if they propose to put tables and chairs outside it. I did not hear an answer; I might have missed it. Secondly, I asked whether it would be legitimate for an application to be rejected on the grounds that the seven days provided was not enough time for the consultation with local people that is provided under the Bill. I did not hear an answer to that but, again, I might have missed it.

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

For clarification, the definition of adjacent does not necessarily refer to premises. We will write to the noble Lord on his second specific point.

Lord Low of Dalston Portrait Lord Low of Dalston [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment at this stage.

Amendment 9 withdrawn.
Amendment 10 not moved.
Clause 2 agreed.
Clause 3: Determination of applications
Amendments 11 to 13 not moved.
Clause 3 agreed.
Clause 4: Duration
Amendments 14 and 15 not moved.
Clause 4 agreed.
Clause 5: Conditions
Amendments 16 and 17 not moved.
18:25
Sitting suspended.
18:45
Lord Russell of Liverpool Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, we now come to the group consisting of Amendment 18. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this amendment to a Division should make that clear in debate.

Amendment 18

Moved by
18: Clause 5, page 5, line 6, at end insert—
“( ) Pavement licences may only be granted by a local authority subject to the condition that smoking is prohibited.”
Baroness Northover Portrait Baroness Northover (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Amendment 18 is in my name and those of the noble Lords, Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Faulkner of Worcester, and of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff. We all want to get the hospitality sector moving again. I remind noble Lords that over 85% of people do not smoke. There is a public health issue here, but there is also the issue of making pubs and restaurants appealing to the vast majority of people. The UK hospitality sector will not recover if we cannot make it an enjoyable experience for the majority of its clients—that includes all those non-smokers and their children—as well as safe and enjoyable for the staff who may already be worried about returning to work.

The Bill proposes that restaurants and pubs should be able to use outside spaces for their customers to spill out into. People are safer from Covid-19 in the fresh air than inside buildings and, given the restrictions on numbers inside, this enables more customers to be catered for. The Government seek to balance economic with public health needs. Thus, in effect, the footprint of the pub or restaurant is expanded outside. We have already debated how these new needs and demands must be balanced with other considerations—the vital need to be inclusive, as the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, and others so passionately put it.

Amendment 18 specifies that pavement licences may only be granted by a local authority subject to the condition that smoking is prohibited in such spaces. It is a simple and straightforward proposition. We all worked together, across all parties and none, on banning smoking in public places. That was transformative for public health, for the prevention of illness through second-hand smoke, for those working in these environments, and for the benefit of families and pregnant women. It is now widely accepted as a benefit and few people seek to turn back the clock.

However, under this Bill, the footprint of pubs and restaurants will, as I said, extend outside. If such an extension, for which there are good reasons, is to be granted, then these newly defined public places must also be smoke free for all the same public health and other reasons that the interiors of pubs and restaurants are smoke free.

The noble Earl, Lord Howe, who shared Second Reading with the Minister, has contributed significantly over many years as we have sought to combat smoking. I hope that both Ministers know that the words that they might have been given to reply to this amendment to the effect that local authorities “can” take such action is a world away from a provision saying that they “must” take such action. As the noble Earl will remember, prior to the introduction of smoke-free enclosed public places in the Health Act 2006 the hospitality trade did not support legislation that was simply local. It wanted a level playing field, provided by national legislation that covered all hospitality venues. That is why we need national action and “must” not “can”.

I first noticed this issue when I saw a petition organised to try to persuade the City of London and Westminster City Council to do this. A number of local businesses support it, but the council has not agreed, and therefore no progress is being made. As soon as I flagged this issue up at Second Reading, only one week ago, with ASH’s help and to my delight but not to my surprise, I secured support from every Bench in this House, as represented by the amendment. I am delighted to say that we also have the support of a former Secretary of State for Heath, the noble Lord, Lord Lansley.

In the space of a week, we have also secured support for this amendment from the 10 local authorities that make up Greater Manchester, including the cities of Manchester and Salford, and from Liverpool and Newcastle, Oxfordshire County Council, and the Local Government Association itself. I am extremely grateful to them all in their clear concern for the pubs, restaurants and citizens in their area. This needs to be national.

The Government have said that they want to achieve a smoke-free England by 2030. There is a danger in this Bill of things going backwards and not forwards. For those who think that the urgent measures taken in the Bill should not be impeded, such as perhaps the noble Baronesses, Lady Noakes and Lady Neville-Rolfe, I remind noble Lords of the numbers: 85% of people do not smoke. If we are to encourage them back to using pubs and restaurants, let us make it easy for proprietors to implement this measure, so that they can make their establishments as attractive as possible.

I hope therefore that the noble Lord will see the case and has already heard the strength of feeling on this issue in the House. We banned smoking in interior public places, and that ban must be sustained as we redefine in the Bill what public places are. I beg to move.

Lord Young of Cookham Portrait Lord Young of Cookham (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I put my name to the noble Baroness’s amendment to indicate cross-party support, and I now add a brief footnote to her excellent speech.

Winding up the Second Reading debate last Monday, my noble friend Lord Howe said, in connection with another section of the Bill:

“The Government are clear that workers should not be forced into an unsafe workplace and that the health and safety of workers should not be put at risk.”—[Official Report, 6/7/20; col. 970.]


One of the principal reasons for the Health Act 2006, which banned smoking in pubs, was to protect employees from the health risks of passive smoking, as well as from the irritation and smell of the smoke. Under the Bill, employees of pubs will have to deliver drinks and collect glasses from the pavements, and they should be entitled to continue to work in a smoke-free atmosphere, as set out in the Health Act 2006.

In response to the case made last week by the noble Baroness, my noble friend Lord Howe said that

“the local authority can impose locally-set conditions on licences … that … can include restricting smoking in areas not designated for smokers.”—[Official Report, 6/7/20; col. 971.]

I do not believe that this is good enough. When Parliament considered banning smoking in pubs, it rejected the policy of leaving it to local discretion. It was to be a clear, national public health policy, and so should this be. As the noble Baroness said, the Local Government Association does not want local discretion. Doing that would blunt the public health message and lead to uncertainty among customers. From the industry’s point of view, it is right that there should be a level playing field.

I urge my noble friend to think again and give a positive response, otherwise I fear that, for the first time since I joined your Lordships’ House, I may be obliged to vote against my party on Report.

Lord Faulkner of Worcester Portrait Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, it is a pleasure and a privilege to follow the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham. His record in fighting for public health and achieving sensible tobacco control is probably greater than that of any other Member of your Lordships’ House. It goes right back to the early 1980s, when, as a Health Minister, he was fired from Margaret Thatcher’s Government for taking a tough line on sports sponsorship and advertisements with those whom he described as the “tobacco barons”. In a blog post, he said:

“I banned smoking at the meetings I held with them, and tried to get a health warning not just on the cigarette packs, but on the cigarettes themselves. The barons resisted this; the ink, they asserted, contained substances that could damage the smoker’s health”.


I am delighted that he has put his name to this amendment; I was very pleased to do the same. I congratulate the noble Baroness on the speech she made at Second Reading and on the very persuasive way in which she moved the amendment so ably just now.

This is the latest step on the journey to the smoke-free country which Ministers say they want to achieve by 2030. It is also consistent with the approach we have adopted in your Lordships’ House since we approved a succession of tobacco control measures, going back to the early years of this century. The most important of these, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Young, was the measure to make pubs and clubs smoke-free after the free votes in 2006. There can be hardly anyone, in this House or outside, who wishes to go back to the days when pubs were full of smoke and patrons needed to change their clothes and wash their hair to get rid of the stench when they got home. Those laws were the most significant contribution to public health since the clean air laws of the 1950s and the Victorians’ improvements to the quality of drinking water.

In 2013, I was pleased to be part of a cross-party group which moved amendments to the then Children and Families Bill that were designed to protect children and help prevent them starting to smoke. Those required cigarettes and other tobacco products to be sold in standardised packaging and made it an offence to smoke in cars where children under 18 are present. By the happiest of coincidences, the Health Minister who accepted the arguments in those amendments tabled in Committee was none other than the noble Earl, Lord Howe. He will therefore appreciate how entirely appropriate it is to improve legislation such as this in the interests of public health.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, has said, this amendment enjoys significant public support. Particularly striking is the evidence from Greater Manchester. Over 70% of its population said that they wanted the areas immediately outside public buildings to be smoke-free environments. As she said, all 10 local authorities in the area support this amendment.

I should also mention a friend of mine, Ian Hudspeth. He is a Conservative councillor and chair of the Local Government Association’s community well-being board. In a message to me he writes: “As leader of Oxfordshire County Council, which supports Oxfordshire’s ambition to be the first smoke-free county in five years’ time, by 2025, I want to express my support for this amendment. It is important to ensure that public spaces where people congregate and socialise do not present a health hazard from cigarette smoke. By giving local authorities the mandate and tools to protect their residents’ health, it ensures a level playing field for businesses and demonstrates the Government’s commitment to its ambition for England to be smoke free by 2030”.

I hope that your Lordships will accept this amendment when, presumably, it is moved on Report—unless the Minister is able to indicate tonight that he is able to accept it now. I wholeheartedly support it.

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Portrait Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB) [V]
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My Lords, I am delighted to support this important amendment. We have come a long way in public health on harms from smoking and passive smoking. Our ban on smoking in public places has resulted in proven improvements in rates of heart disease among workers in such environments. As well as protecting workers in pubs, we must not put at risk the public, who have in recent years enjoyed pubs. Unfortunately, the evidence around Covid damaging the heart and lungs is rapidly mounting. We know that those with cardiovascular disease and lung disease—direct consequences of tobacco smoke exposure—have a worse prognosis and a higher post-infection morbidity.

For people’s mental health, and for the country’s economy, it is essential that venues are supported to open safely and inclusively, and to provide a pleasant experience outdoors that is as safe as possible. Commercial pressures from the tobacco industry will, of course, want to resist this. This amendment, to which I have my name, supports hospitality venues to reopen, maintains consistent messaging to decrease smoking and encourages people to enjoy going out and socialising, with mental health benefits. This amendment supports our public health gain on decreasing tobacco smoke exposure, which must not be abandoned now; it would be irresponsible to throw it away. I urge all noble Lords to think about what they will throw away if they do not support the simple measure proposed in this amendment.

19:00
Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe [V]
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My Lords, I rise to express my doubts about this amendment, because the Bill contains temporary measures. We should put liberalisation to the fore, as argued by my noble friend Lady Noakes on an earlier amendment, and should not be using this Bill to make major policy changes.

My grandmother was a smoker and died of lung cancer shortly before I was born—a great sadness, as she was a founder of the CPRE and a great cook. However, this has made me very aware of the right way to encourage the reduction in smoking. I do not believe in total bans, which drive smoking underground. The truth is that smokers are still able to smoke in the open outside some pubs and bars, so they come, sit outside well away from others and support the hospitality sector—as I saw on Saturday outside the coffee shops in Salisbury marketplace. A proper study and assessment of what this measure would mean cannot be done for a temporary Bill. It would certainly affect pubs and other outlets, but we do not know what the possible impact would be, given that we are talking about people gathering together in the open air.

More generally, I feel that noble Lords have not grasped the gravity and immediacy of the economic disaster enveloping this country as a result of Covid. The various measures and amendments before us could make things worse—for example, by hitting pub numbers and, indeed, driving smokers away from the open air that is better for their health. I believe that this should be a matter for local authorities and that we should not be embarking on a major change in this temporary Bill.

Lord Clement-Jones Portrait Lord Clement-Jones [V]
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My Lords, I am speaking very strongly in favour of Amendment 18, so cogently introduced by my noble friend Lady Northover. This debate takes me back almost 20 years to the passage of my Private Member’s Bill, which became the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Act 2002. It had cross-party support and the very effective backing of Action on Smoking and Health, as does today’s amendment.

My noble friend Lady Northover was extremely helpful then, as were the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, and the late Lord Peston, who we all remember so fondly. The noble Lord, Lord Naseby, was a lot less constructive. The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, was on patrol. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, kicked the tyres on the Bill very hard but was persuaded of its merits—as I hope he and his ministerial colleagues will be by this amendment today.

Our culture and, in particular, the balance between smokers and non-smokers, has changed dramatically since those days. I remember visiting Ireland with the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain, shortly after the passage of the Bill. The scales fell from our eyes about the possibility of smoke-free pubs and restaurants—and now, as a result, our health benefits hugely.

Clause 5 already sets out that conditions can be put on pavement licences by local authorities or the Secretary of State. As the LGA says, this amendment

“sets a level playing field for hospitality venues across the country”.

It wants national action. This is crucial, as my noble friend Lady Northover explained, to ensure consistency and clarity of regulation across the country for the hospitality trade. It also has the public health benefit of protecting people from unwanted second-hand smoke.

As ASH says, Covid-19 has changed the context completely. Access to indoor smoke-free areas in hospitality venues is limited and riskier as a result. Prohibition of smoking in enclosed areas has displaced it outdoors, particularly to areas around the entrances and exits to public buildings. If smoking is not prohibited, pavement areas will not be family-friendly spaces. They will exclude non-smokers from enjoying the benefit of eating and drinking outside. Neighbouring premises, particularly in cramped, inner city areas, will also be exposed to second-hand smoke.

This is a chance to ensure that the health gains of the 2002 Act and the Health Act 2006—which has had great public support, as my noble friend said, with smoking declining significantly among young people in particular—are not squandered and that the Government can realise their stated ambition for England to be smoke-free by 2030.

Lord Ribeiro Portrait Lord Ribeiro (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I apologise for not speaking at Second Reading. Given the restrictions imposed on restaurants and pubs to maintain social distancing during this Covid-19 crisis, it is understandable and welcome that this Bill makes it possible for food and drink to be served on the pavements outside pubs and restaurants.

We have regulations that prevent smoking in pubs and restaurants because of the effects of second-hand smoke on other customers. We have all seen the graphic Covid health warning films about the effects of coughing and sneezing, and how droplets large and small can be projected over several metres and potentially infect those within range. Most smokers exhale the smoke from their lungs through pursed lips and can project smoke beyond the government guidelines of social distancing of one metre plus. So the risk of second-hand smoke, even in an open environment, can affect those seated close by. In effect, the pavement licence takes the pub or restaurant outside. Therefore, any regulation relating to smoking in public places such as pubs and restaurants should be extended to pavement areas until such time as the designated period outlined in the Bill ends in September 2021.

All the evidence points to a second wave of Covid-19. We expect something to happen as we approach winter. The sporadic outbreaks we have recently witnessed in Leicester and Herefordshire should be a warning to us all to be careful in controlling the spread of the virus. Given the horrendous effects of coronavirus, particularly on patients’ lungs—many requiring long-term ventilation—it is all the more important to ensure that the air around us is as unpolluted as possible. That includes air from second-hand smoke. As the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and others observed, the Government have expressed a desire to make England smoke-free by 2030. Let us start now, by prohibiting smoking on pavements outside restaurants and pubs, and in doing so protect those who may contract coronavirus in the coming year and thus be at risk of serious lung complications.

I strongly support this amendment and hope that it will be accepted, albeit as part of a temporary measure.

Baroness Sheehan Portrait Baroness Sheehan (LD) [V]
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My Lords, I will speak in support of Amendment 18 in the name of my noble friend Lady Northover, which I am pleased to say enjoys support across the House. Before I do so, I apologise for not being able to speak at Second Reading last week. I thank my noble friend Lady Northover for the comprehensive way in which she introduced her amendment, and her co-signatories the noble Lords, Lord Young and Lord Faulkner, and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, for their support.

The amendment seeks to ensure that in our attempt to find new and different ways of allowing our cafés, pubs and restaurants to survive, we do so in a way that is sustainable and safe for as many members of the public as possible, including staff. It will also make family-friendly areas safer for young children, who are particularly susceptible to toxic second-hand smoke.

I heard a few people say that extending non-smoking areas to licensed pavements should be left to local authorities to decide on an ad hoc basis, but, as in 2016, most proprietors of pubs, restaurants and cafés support extending the non-smoking area to licensed pavements. They know they will be on the front line when it comes to enforcing rules and, not surprisingly, they want the clarity and the safety from disappointed and sometime aggressive members of the public. They want the clarity that comes from everybody having to adhere to the same rules. Anything other than a national regime, underpinned by legislation, would cause confusion and, I fear, sometimes conflict.

I agree what other noble Lords have said in support of the amendment and I do not want to repeat what has already been said. However, there is one last point I would like to make. To introduce pavement licensing without the attendant safeguards from exposure to second-hand smoke would fly in the face of the Government’s own rationale for reducing the two-metre safety distance to one metre-plus. The plus refers to a physical barrier such as a screen or a face covering. Allowing smoking outdoors will mean the removal of face coverings and masks, therefore more exposure for the smoker and for anyone sharing his or her airspace. If only for the sake of consistency with their own policies, the Government should accept this amendment tabled by my noble friend Lady Northover.

Lord German Portrait Lord German (LD) [V]
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My Lords, when the smoking ban was first introduced in 2007, it had followed years of campaigning and research to demonstrate the negative effects. Second-hand smoke affects everyone. The research studies then showed breathing in second-hand smoke increased an adult non-smoker’s risk of lung cancer and heart disease by a quarter, and of a stroke by 30%. I had been chair of a committee in the then National Assembly, which is now the Welsh Parliament, investigating the case for and the effects of a smoking ban in public and workplaces, and it was introduced before the ban in England. But that case is now well established and agreed across all parts of the United Kingdom, and 10 years after the 2007 Act, in 2017, the Welsh Parliament went even further, introducing restrictions on smoking in outdoor care settings for children, school grounds, hospital grounds and public playgrounds.

The current smoking ban in England is meant to be one of a series of moves to discourage smoking. The ban is part of a trend towards policies that de-normalise smoking and it has helped create a shift in culture. Around the world, Governments are considering or instituting bans on outdoor smoking. Just last summer, Sweden banned smoking in many outdoor places, including playgrounds, train platforms and restaurant patios. Following the Welsh example, smoking has been banned in the grounds of most NHS hospitals in England. The case for preventing the breathing in of other people’s smoke is proven. It is beyond doubt; it is harmful. Given there is a ban in workplaces, moving the workplace outside on to the pavement extends the boundary of the workplace, and thereby extends the need for banning smoking within that boundary if for no other reason than for those who work within those establishments.

One of the arguments used in 2007 was that a smoking ban would damage the business of pubs, but there has been no direct negative effect on pubs. People, as has already been commented, just go outside to smoke. Therefore, if the experience of 2007 is anything to go by, and the smoking ban is introduced on the pavement facility provided by the Bill, the new and temporary outside for smokers will be an outside space away from others who are eating and drinking. In reality, not having a smoking ban may well be the bigger deterrent here. Not being able to eat or drink in a non-smoking environment, to which the public have been accustomed, may well keep them away from eating out.

Breathing in other people’s smoke is harmful. The Government have indicated that they want to go further. The experience thus far is that a ban on the pavement facility will not damage business; smokers will move away from those eating and drinking. So why not use this limited opportunity to provide an environment which is not just smoke free but is healthy for diners and staff alike? The Government can demonstrate that they mean business in the challenge to tackle the harm that smoking does to the health of the nation. I am pleased to support the amendment.

19:15
Lord Carlile of Berriew Portrait Lord Carlile of Berriew [V]
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My Lords, I start by congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, on having the courage to present this important amendment, and on doing it so well—[Connection lost.]

Baroness Garden of Frognal Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)
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Lord Carlile, are you still there? We had better move to the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, and we may try to get the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, back later.

Lord Rennard Portrait Lord Rennard (LD) [V]
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My Lords, the principle of providing pavement licences is welcome, and I believe that this amendment will help to encourage more businesses in the hospitality sector to open. It has been put forward superbly by my noble friend Lady Northover and other noble Lords.

Over the weekend, I was able to visit excellent cafés on the Eastbourne sea front which were all following sensible and necessary precautions in relation to social distancing et cetera. However, as an asthmatic who has never enjoyed having to suffer other people’s tobacco smoke, I would not have enjoyed the experience if I had been subject to smoke blowing across from nearby tables. I was also mindful that staff in these establishments could not be protected from second-hand smoking if it had been permitted in these outdoor areas. Where I went would not have seemed so family-friendly, and passers-by would have been at risk, as pavement licences will apply to areas close to where people will be walking.

There is some misunderstanding over this amendment. It is about smoking immediately outside premises, where smoke drifts in and staff and customers are heavily exposed. It is not unlike the prohibition on smoking, agreed in 2007, in relevant parts of railway stations. These regulations cover concourses, ticket halls and platforms. Smoking is at present banned in public places. That ban has wide support, and it should be banned where pavement licences are now granted. If we do what the tobacco companies want, we will be undermining the Government’s own aim of creating a smoke-free country by 2030.

Earl of Shrewsbury Portrait The Earl of Shrewsbury (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, on tabling this excellent amendment and for articulating it so well. I happen to be a former smoker. I now have COPD and the best thing I have ever done in my life was to give up smoking. I am extremely pleased to support the amendment. I cannot add to what noble Lords have already said so powerfully, except that second-hand smoke is dangerous to the health of all, obnoxious to the majority of those who have to suffer and inhale it and, socially, totally unacceptable. The smoking litter left behind is a health hazard. I urge the Government to accept this sensible amendment.

Lord Sheikh Portrait Lord Sheikh [V]
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My Lords, I will speak in favour of this amendment, which I wholeheartedly support.

I remind noble Lords that smoking causes lung cancer, heart disease, strokes and other illnesses. Smoking causes harm to smokers as well as being a danger to others. When a person smokes, most of the smoke does not go in his or her lungs but is in the air, meaning that anyone can breathe it, with dire consequences. It was therefore decided not to allow people to smoke indoors, but this rule should now be followed by customers who are outside the premises.

If smoking is allowed on the pavement outside the premises, there will be a danger, not only to smokers but to other customers and pedestrians passing by. There will also be a danger to the staff who are serving the customers, as they will be affected by second-hand smoke. Over 85% of the British population are non-smokers. They do not like others to smoke near them, as they feel that they will be subjected to passive smoking. I hope that this amendment is accepted.

Baroness Noakes Portrait Baroness Noakes
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My Lords, I have not smoked for nearly 40 years and I loathe cigarette smoking, so I gently say to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, that he has misremembered my involvement in earlier anti-smoking legislation.

Nevertheless, like my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe, I do not think that the Bill is the right place for this amendment. The amendment would affect the granting only of new licences and would therefore discriminate against any premises granted a temporary licence under the Bill. Echoing what my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe said, I think that there is a massive danger to our economy of not getting it going again. It is not an overall concept of the economy; these are individual businesses that will go under if they cannot find a way of becoming viable. We should not lumber them with a competitive burden not borne by other businesses that already have pavement licences.

I do not know whether this is a real problem. The Health Survey for England 2017 had only around one-quarter of people self-reporting exposure to second-hand smoke, and only around 15% saying that it was smoke from outdoor areas outside pubs and restaurants. The majority appear not to be bothered. Be that as it may, we should cover that in a consultation and an evidence base that is sought on the normal basis before taking primary legislation to deal with this, if indeed it is an issue, rather than trying to squeeze it into the Bill, which is about trying to make things easier for some businesses to get going again.

Lord Lansley Portrait Lord Lansley (Con)
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My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, on bringing forward this amendment and I support it. If I may presume to say so, we were together as part of the health team in the coalition Government. I am very proud of the fact that we implemented the display ban on tobacco in shops and brought in the ban on vending machines, which was particularly important in restricting the access to tobacco and cigarettes for young people. I also initiated the consultation that led subsequently to standardised packaging.

Between 2011 and 2018, the proportion of adults in this country who were smoking went down, as the noble Baroness suggested. It has gone down from nearly 20% to below 15%. Most encouragingly, among 18 to 24 year-olds the reduction has been largest: from 25.8% down to 16.7%. There has been a reduction of more than one-third in the number of young people smoking—the 18 to 24 year-olds. That is one of the reasons why the impact of this issue in relation to pubs, clubs, restaurants and the like is particularly important for young people who are out and about.

I want to make three points. First, we are in the midst of a health crisis. In a health crisis, which is probably demonstrating to us that one of the underlying factors that has not helped us is the poor underlying health of many people in this country, we must do everything we can to try to improve population health in this country. We have not done enough and need to do more. We must prioritise public health and, by extension, if this amendment were taken on board this measure—modest as it may be in the overall scheme of things—would move us in the right direction.

My second point comes to the point made just now by my noble friend Lady Noakes. It is an important one. This is a temporary measure and would be specific in relation to new licences, but the essence of this Bill is that it will give an opportunity for premises which have previously been licensed for indoors to move outdoors; it gives an opportunity for licensed premises to operate on pavements and the like. In effect, what it says is, “We are extending the public space.” In my view, as we extend the public space, so we should extend the protections for the public that go with it. That means a ban on second-hand, passive smoking for those people who are enjoying that opportunity.

I shall make a third point. I am reminded of when my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham and I worked together on a little conspiracy of our own when we were in the other place: the ban on smoking in public places. I was the shadow health Secretary at the time. The nature of our conspiracy was that we secured the agreement of the whips that there would be a free vote. So I very much hope that neither my noble friend nor I will have to vote against a government whip on this matter. The Government could adopt exactly the same approach and give noble Lords in this place a free vote on the amendment. They might also do the same in the other place, and we shall see where we end up on the basis of the arguments. We implemented a ban on smoking in public places on a free vote and, in these circumstances, I think that we might well extend that ban on the same basis for this measure.

Lord Naseby Portrait Lord Naseby [V]
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My Lords, this is not a health Bill, as my noble friend Lady Noakes pointed out; it is a temporary measure. I am sorry to say this, but I think that this is an emotional amendment—and I speak as someone who is a non-smoker. I would remind your Lordships that tobacco is a legal product that is marketed with awareness packaging. Moreover, we need to take on board that we are talking about the nearly 7 million people in our population who still smoke, plus the 3.6 million who are vaping.

A great deal has been said about smoke curling around people who are eating and so on, but in an outdoor situation, tobacco smoke is highly diluted and dissipates very quickly in almost every atmospheric condition. It is absolutely right that smokers have a responsibility to behave properly towards the people around them, particularly when they are accompanied by children.

The proposal being put forward in this amendment to force pubs and cafés to ban smoking outside their premises—otherwise they will be refused permission to serve drinks—is wholly disproportionate. At a time when all our small businesses are on their knees, struggling to survive under the pressure of coping with Covid-19, I suggest that the last thing they need is further restrictions that will drive away desperately needed customers.

I am not saying that this measure would not be appropriate in a proper health Bill at some point, as soon as the authorities deem it to be relevant to take a particular action one way or another—but to hang this ban on to a temporary Bill that is designed to help every small business, not just those whose customers are not smokers, is entirely wrong in my view.

Baroness Garden of Frognal Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees
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Can we get the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, back?

Lord Carlile of Berriew Portrait Lord Carlile of Berriew [V]
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My Lords, I apologise—just as I was speaking, there was a power cut in my home. I was saying that in 2015, some 115,000 people died of smoking-related diseases in the UK alone, at a time when knowledge of the dangers of smoking was complete. Since at least 2006, when a significant report was published by Stanford University, it has been known that exposure to tobacco smoke outdoors is less damaging but still potentially very damaging. The noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, who is a considerable medical expert in your Lordships’ House, described clearly how the effects of tobacco can be transferred outdoors.

Let us turn to the nature of the venues that we are discussing. We are not talking about people smoking cigarettes in a field or in a park, or walking along a pavement and making steady progress. The nature of many of the venues that we are discussing here involves canopies, umbrellas and, by definition, proximity. We need only look at the courtyard of every public house.

19:30
The one compromisethat we should not make in the present circumstances is over health. In the balance between rights and duties, it is not much to ask that smoking should not be permitted in these circumstances. I have listened to two or three noble Lords describe what they suggest is the economic impact of the ban on smoking in outdoor venues that is under consideration, but I do not accept that for one moment. There is not a single piece of evidence that there would be any economic impact to the leisure trade from the ban on smoking proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover; indeed, evidence has already been provided in this debate to support that view.
So I ask the Minister to accept the inexorable logic and merits of this amendment. I thank noble Lords for allowing me a second go at this speech after my unfortunate power cut.
Baroness Garden of Frognal Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees
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The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock.

Baroness Pinnock Portrait Baroness Pinnock [V]
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My Lords, we have heard powerful and eloquent contributions, led by my noble friend Lady Northover, on the imperative to ensure that by extending ways in which pubs and cafés can serve customers, we do not also inadvertently extend opportunities for smoking. All the arguments have been made. I wholeheartedly support this amendment. It has cross-party support. I look forward to the Minister indicating that the Government accept that this amendment is essential for public health.

Baroness Wilcox of Newport Portrait Baroness Wilcox of Newport [V]
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My Lords, the sole amendment in this group seeks to prevent customers from smoking in areas covered by the new pavement licences. The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, is right to alert the House to the dangers of second-hand smoke. This is a pertinent issue, considering that respiratory health is at the forefront of everyone’s mind.

The House will be aware that for some time there has been a wider campaign for smoking in beer gardens to be banned, and that any proposals for further restrictions should be considered only in consultation with the hospitality industry, especially at a time when businesses are struggling to survive. On a similar note, I would welcome the Minister clarifying the guidance to pubs on the exact regulations relating to smoking in outdoor areas. The Minister may be aware that a bar in Belfast was fined earlier this year because its beer garden, which allowed smokers, was too enclosed.

Also on the dangers of smoking, can the Minister explain why the Government are still planning to cut smoking cessation services across England by £4.9 million in 2019-20? The noble Lord, Lord Young, reminded the House of the Health Act 2006, which helped employees in the hospitality industry deal with the perils of passive smoking, since they are entitled to work in a smoke-free atmosphere. My noble friend Lord Faulkner alerted the House to the Government’s intention to make pubs and clubs smoke-free by 2030—the most significant contribution to public health since the Clean Air Act of the 1950s.

I pay tribute to local government colleagues in Manchester who, through consultation, have found that an overwhelming majority of Mancunians support the creation of permanent smoke-free zones in the city and wider region, to “make smoking history”. Perhaps the Minister should look instead to Wales, where the Labour-led Welsh Government have made enormous achievements in de-normalising smoking and protecting non-smokers from exposure to second-hand smoke. Last summer, Wales was the first country in the UK to ban smoking in outdoor school spaces, playgrounds and hospital grounds, and—as noted by the noble Lord, Lord German, who was an Assembly Minister at that time—we were ahead of the curve when we banned smoking in indoor public places in Wales in April 2007, ahead of England.

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh
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My Lords, the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham and the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, seeks to ensure that pavement licences may only be granted by local authorities subject to the condition that smoking is prohibited. The Government recognise the vital importance of health and safety concerns but we do not believe that imposing a condition to prohibit outdoor smoking would be proportionate. I shall explain why.

We are helping our pubs, cafes and restaurants to safely reopen, and we are securing jobs by making it quicker, easier and cheaper to operate outside. The Government’s priority is protecting public health against the transmission of the coronavirus while ensuring that venues can remain open and economically sustainable. The Government have no plan to ban outdoor smoking. Excessive regulation would lead to pub closures and job losses. Smokers should exercise social responsibility and be considerate, and premises are able to set their own rules to reflect customer wishes.

The Bill allows local authorities to set their own conditions on licences and makes it clear that those authorities will want to consider public health and public safety in doing so. Therefore, local authorities can exercise their condition-making powers to impose no-smoking conditions. Where there is a breach of the condition, the local authority can serve a notice to remedy the breach and even remove the licence, so local authorities have the power to revoke licences where they give rise to genuine health and safety concerns.

Businesses can make their own non-smoking policies for outside space, which can include restrictions on smoking near food. There is a need for social responsibility, as I have already said, and smokers should be considerate to others. The amendment would have unintended consequences, pushing drinkers on to pavements and roads away from licensed trading areas. It would also cause confusion with existing outdoor areas that would still permit smoking.

I have to say that it is great to see the reformation of the dream team of my noble friend Lord Lansley and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, given what they have achieved in public health terms—the display ban, the ban on vending machines—and to hear of the work between my noble friends Lord Lansley and Lord Young in cooking up a free vote on banning smoking in public places. However, I reiterate that this is a temporary emergency form of legislation and it should not be a backdoor route to try to ban smoking in public places, as pointed out by my noble friends Lady Neville-Rolfe, Lady Noakes and Lord Naseby.

As the son of a surgeon, I appreciate the contribution of my noble friend Lord Ribeiro and the points made by the noble Lords, Lord German and Lord Carlile of Berriew, and my noble friends Lord Shrewsbury and Lord Sheikh. The case is now incontrovertible that there are dangers from second-hand and passive smoking. I can say that as the son of a vascular surgeon who has published extensively on the impact of smoking on arterial disease. The Government are committed, as has already been stated, to achieving a smoke-free England by 2030. We are already taking steps to get there, as was referenced by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard. England’s smoking levels continue to fall and are currently at 13.9%, the lowest rate on record. We will publish the prevention Green Paper consultation response in due course and set out our plans at a later date to achieve a smoke-free England. So we support the implementation and evaluation of smoke-free policies in line with the evidence as it emerges.

The noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, made the important point that any changes of this nature should be made in consultation with the hospitality industry, so amending this Bill is not the way to implement such changes. I note her points about specific places and I will write to her on those matters. For the reasons that I have set out I am not able to accept the amendment, and I hope the noble Baroness will therefore withdraw it.

Lord Robathan Portrait Lord Robathan (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I was moved to speak on this amendment because it seems to negate the purpose of this part of the emergency Bill, which is to allow people out on to the pavements to smoke and drink. I have not smoked a cigarette since I was about 11. I had a reputation at school as a prefect and in the Army of being virulently anti-smoking, which I am. I welcome the fact that I can go to pubs and come out without my jersey stinking of cigarettes.

I am delighted to say that neither of my children, who are in their early 20s, have taken up smoking. I would be very upset if they had. We all know how unwise it is. It is a foolish habit, but it is legal and lots of people smoke. Furthermore, many people only smoke with a drink because they like smoking with a drink.

We are talking about being outside. If, as the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, said, it is safer to be outside because of the threat of the virus, it is also safe to be outside when it comes to passive smoking. Of course, we will also have social distancing, which makes it that much more difficult to breathe in someone else’s smoke. As it happens, I would support this amendment if it referred only to restaurants and places where people were eating, but it is illogical because if people are just having a drink it is rather like the outdoor smoking areas that were much talked about during the passage of the Bill that banned smoking in pubs.

We are trying to encourage people to visit bars, but this would deter some people from going to bars. I see it as a somewhat illiberal amendment, which is why I am not surprised to see so many Liberal Democrats supporting it. It seems to be driven by a personal dislike of smoking—a dislike which I share. I will welcome the time when everyone gives up and we have a smoke-free England but, at the moment, if people are allowed to smoke they should be allowed to smoke with a drink outside if they are not harming anyone else. I am delighted to hear that the Government are likely to resist the amendment.

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh
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I am delighted that my noble friend Lord Robathan has a smoke-free family and to hear about his ill-spent youth as an 11 year-old smoker. But as I said previously, this is emergency and temporary legislation and should not be a backdoor route to ban smoking in public places.

Baroness Northover Portrait Baroness Northover
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My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response and especially for grouping me with the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, as part of this dream team. There is no reason why the Minister would know this, but when the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, was the Secretary of State, I was a mere Whip in the coalition, and deputising for part of that dream team—the noble Earl, Lord Howe. I understand why the noble Earl might have felt it difficult to give the speech that the Minister was given by his department this evening. It would have been immensely difficult for part of that real dream team to do that.

I am very thankful to noble Lords for their contributions. I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lady Noakes, and the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, for their comments about moving fast, but they did not seem to get the point that I was making which is that we need to get this sector up and running. Given that almost 90% of us do not smoke, the amendment would make establishments more rather than less attractive, more viable rather than less so, as well as tackling the public health challenge that everyone has laid out. The fact that so many cities have expressed support to me in the space of a few days shows that people can move fast on this. I trust that, in fact, while we have been speaking, the Government are sending the write rounds on the concession that I think is needed on this amendment. I know that the Department of Health and Social Care has been in touch with ASH today and we are very happy to work with the Government on this.

I am, as the Minister will see, disappointed in his response. I realise that he is constrained and that he will be perhaps less familiar with the history of this House and the cross-party involvement in this issue, although I think that he has probably gathered that from the range of people who have spoken. At this stage, I will withdraw the amendment, although we will return to it next week.

The ideal situation is that the Government come forward with their own amendment so that we do not have to have a vote on it next week. I hope very much that the discussions with the Department of Health and Social Care—I am looking at the Box at the moment—will bear fruit. I also look at that part of the dream team sitting on the Bishops’ Benches. I hope that next week we can come to a resolution that we are all happy with.

Amendment 18 withdrawn.
Amendments 19 to 21 not moved.
Clause 5 agreed.
Clause 6 agreed.
Clause 7: Effects
Amendments 22 and 23 not moved.
Clause 7 agreed.
19:45
Baroness Garden of Frognal Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees
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My Lords, we now come to the group consisting of Amendment 24. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this amendment to a Division should make that clear in the debate.

Amendment 24

Moved by
24: After Clause 7, insert the following new Clause—
“Outdoor space licences
(1) A person whose use or proposed use of any premises in England is or includes relevant use may apply to the appropriate local authority to extend the licence for relevant use to outdoor areas within the curtilage of the licensed premises (an “outdoor space licence”) and such applications are subject to the provisions specified in paragraphs (a) to (f) that apply to pavement licence applications with “an outdoor space licence” substituted for “a pavement licence”—(a) application provisions under section 2 except for subsection (2)(a), (b) and (e);(b) determination of applications under section 3(1) to (4);(c) duration under section 4;(d) conditions under section 5;(e) enforcement and revocation under section 6 except for subsection (3)(a);(f) effects under section 7(2).(2) Where a person has applied to a local authority for a variation of a licence in respect of relevant use and before that licence is granted the person applies for an outdoor space licence under this section, the person may express to the local authority that they want to withdraw their earlier application when applying for an outdoor space licence, and if the person has paid any fee in connection with that application the local authority to which the outdoor space licence application is made may not require a fee for the outdoor space application.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause creates a fast-track procedure similar to that for pavement licences to provide ‘outdoor space licences’ for areas within the curtilage of licensed premises but not already covered by the existing licence, eg car parks or courtyards.
Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted Portrait Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted [V]
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My Lords, this amendment follows up the point that I raised at Second Reading about the use of outdoor spaces within the curtilage of premises that are not spaces covered by the definition of relevant highways and pavement licences. I did not get a reply, which I am sure is an oversight, as the Minister wrote on another matter. I wrote back on Friday, so at least there has been some advance notice about this somewhat fuzzy issue.

Newspapers have been proclaiming that this Bill allows pubs to turn their car parks into beer gardens. One such article was in the Sun on 23 June, headlined:

“Pubs and hotels allowed to turn car parks and grounds into beer gardens to boost economy as lockdown eases”,


and the Mirror said:

“What pubs will look like with beer gardens in car parks as lockdown is eased.”


Even the trade magazine Morning Advertiser said:

“This means pubs and restaurants will be able to use car parks and terraces as dining and drinking areas using their existing seating licences ... thanks to the Business and Planning Bill”.


There are other articles—indeed, so many that it looks like there must have been a briefing.

If that is correct then I am content, but I am confused as to how this is achieved by the Bill if car parks are not part of a relevant highway. So my first question is: are they covered as a “relevant highway” under Part 7A of the Highways Act? I know that they are public places in relation to some driving offences but, as I understand it, they are not highways. A simple look at Part 7A implies that they are not, but who knows what terms one might uncover with more research. In any event, I am also interested in patios, courtyards and other places that might be within the curtilage and not already under the licence. They are clearly not highways. So where is the general new provision? I have proposed one in my amendment just in case it is not there.

Next is the question of whether a licence is needed anyway. My starting point was an awareness that various pubs have already applied for licence variations for car parks and patios. I have also had some emails sent to me on the subject. Some people have the understanding that off-sales cover car park use—on the basis that it is the sale and not the drinking that is licensed—and that the extended off-sales therefore bring them into play if they were not in play already.

However the FAQs about off-sales on the Stafford Borough Council website make the situation clear:

“Q: Can I provide seating for customers of the business, for the purposes of consumption?”


That is for the consumption of off-sales.

“A: No. Seating cannot be made available (and this can include areas not under the control of the premises) and this is not restricted to seating within the premises such as beer gardens and adjoining smoking areas, but would include areas adjacent to the premises which also might include public benches.”


It rules that out: no providing of seating for drinking your off-licence purchases, although local authorities can vary significantly in their levels of strictness.

Then there is the matter of where the sale is made. If there is a bar in the car park, it is clear that the sale is made there. If a table order is taken and paid for in the car park or the beer garden, some people think that is the point of sale, but in the 2002 Valpak packaging case the judge held thatAn article in 2018 about pubs and gardens in the trade magazine Morning Advertiser notes that it is necessary to consider: whether the pub’s outside area is already part of the licence and what rules apply, as restrictions are common, often on time; if it is unlicensed and it is wished to include it then bear in mind there can be objections during the application procedure; that it can be used anyway if it is accompanied by the service of hot food between 5 am and 11 pm as that does not require a licence; and whether it is part of a public highway as then both planning and a pavement licence may be required.

All that, and indeed a lot more, is the background to my amendment, which in simple terms just says that open-space licences should be available on similar terms to pavement licences to cover cases where such a provision is needed. In most instances, non-pavement outdoor spaces are less likely to cause obstruction, and that is a valuable consideration, although they would still need to be treated sensitively with regard to noise and nuisance, especially in residential areas, and for that purpose I have copied in all the parts of the pavement licences referencing such matters. I beg to move.

Lord Lucas Portrait Lord Lucas [V]
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My Lords, I am delighted to support this amendment. I hope the Government will consider allowing councils considerable freedom as to what land they allow premises to use, obviously subject to the permission of the council and the landholder. If you look at a rather complicated town such as Eastbourne, there are few places where you can use the pavement, but not that far away there may well be spaces you could allow a premises to use. It gets quite difficult to negotiate the Bill as it is written, but with a bit more freedom for a local council to apply common sense to where they are prepared to allow tables to be put, we could get to a useful outcome. I encourage my noble friend to look at widening the scope of the permissions that the council is allowed to give so that we can find within the confines of a convoluted town the space that our businesses need.

Earl of Clancarty Portrait The Earl of Clancarty [V]
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My Lords, I will be very brief indeed. I support the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles. It seems a matter of common sense that, certainly in the shorter term, there might be a need to use other spaces. The LGA supports such measures, and I hope the Government take notice and clarify the position.

Baroness Thornhill Portrait Baroness Thornhill (LD) [V]
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My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted’s Amendment 24. Her speech shows that there is much confusion around aspects of the licensing laws. This is also abundantly clear from contributions by other noble Lords today, which is why I echo what the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley, said at Second Reading: a review of our licensing laws is long overdue.

It seems very likely that there will be areas not currently within the so-called red lines of the licence that may be better used for external drinking than the obvious pavement areas, for reasons outlined by the previous speakers. I absolutely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, that local authorities, which know their area, pubs and landlords best, should have maximum flexibility.

This amendment seeks to expand the opportunities for creating such outdoor spaces. For example, can the Minister clarify whether councils can license parking bays that have been suspended—naturally, subject to safety and local considerations, as always? This would enable businesses to take advantage of pavement licences that they otherwise would not be able to because of the limited width of the pavement, for example. Can the Minister also clarify whether new pavement licences are exempt from the public space protection orders in the same way that licences under the Highways Act 1980 are—or are the powers already there but not explicit, in which case can guidance be amended?

Baroness Pinnock Portrait Baroness Pinnock [V]
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My noble friend Lady Bowles has raised detailed issues about the use of alternatives to pavement licences that may be of more value to pubs and cafés and less disruptive to residents. This is eminently sensible and promotes business. I am confident that the Minister will be constructive about the way forward in response to this thoroughly sensible amendment.

Baroness Wilcox of Newport Portrait Baroness Wilcox of Newport [V]
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My Lords, the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, highlights the need for outdoor space licences to be easily granted for areas such as courtyards and car parks. The noble Baroness is right that many premises will not benefit from pavement licences but have space elsewhere for which they may wish to explore the addition of seating. She asked an important question: where is the general new provision? Is the licence needed at all?

The knock-on impact for residents may be lessened should these options be considered rather than pavements. I assume they will also lessen the consequences for those with disabilities who may struggle on pavements blocked by seating. I hope the Minister will consider whether it is possible and desirable to allow more outdoor spaces to be utilised. The noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, noted what my noble friend Lady Kennedy of Cradley said at Second Reading about the licensing laws needing real revision.

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh
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My Lords, the new clause proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted, would introduce a fast-track procedure to provide outdoor space licences for areas within the curtilage of premises not already covered by the existing licence—for example, car parks or courtyards. Given that indoor space will be limited while social distancing measures apply, we want to provide a temporary process that helps us support as many businesses to reopen as possible by allowing them to use outdoor space to serve customers, which I believe is the intention of the noble Baroness’s amendment.

20:00
This amendment would allow premises to apply for a licence to use outdoor spaces such as car parks or courtyards; however, the pavement licence process already allows premises to do this to the extent that adjacent highways can be used. Where it does not, we have put in place temporary permitted development rights that could be used. The Government accepted an amendment in the Commons to allow any businesses whose premises are adjacent to areas pedestrianised through a coronavirus-related temporary traffic restriction order to apply to place furniture on those areas, bringing more businesses within the scope of the pavement licence provisions.
Temporary traffic restriction orders can be made on on-street parking bays and, in cases where an order is made, businesses can apply to use these areas. Temporary traffic restriction orders will not generally cover off-street areas such as car parks; however, to assist the recovery of businesses and to limit the spread of coronavirus, we have introduced two new permitted development rights. The new rights allow
“a market to be held by, or on behalf of local authority on an unlimited number of days”
until 23 March 2021. We have also separately doubled the allowance for the temporary use of land for this year—2020—from 28 to 56 days. As I said, this right runs until 31 December 2020 and also allows
“the erection of moveable structures such as stalls or a marquee on that land.”
These measures will enable the provision of additional space for markets for the sale of food, drink and other goods, and for holding outdoor events, helping businesses to operate safely. Both of these relaxations could apply to land currently used for car parking purposes and other types of land such as courtyards, and support economic activity in town centres.
In summary, the pavement licence process would already allow premises to use adjacent highways, and where it does not we have put in place temporary permitted development rights that could be used. On this basis, I believe the Government have provided sufficient mechanisms to allow businesses to use outdoor spaces, and I therefore hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted Portrait Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted [V]
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My Lords, if what the Minister says is accurate—and I am sure it is intended to be accurate—I am very happy that my amendment is indeed superfluous. When I looked at the temporary permissions, it seemed to me that they referenced back to the highways, but I am prepared to have another look and to continue the dialogue, just to be absolutely certain that that is the right interpretation. If it is and that is the end of the matter, then we all know a little bit more about the present situation. I am happy to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 24 withdrawn.
Clause 8 agreed.
Amendment 25 not moved.
Clauses 9 and 10 agreed.
Lord Russell of Liverpool Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees
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I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the Clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this or any other amendment in this group to a Division should make that clear in the debate.

Clause 11: Modification of premises licences to authorise off-sales for limited period

Amendment 26

Moved by
26: Clause 11, page 8, line 33, leave out from “must” to end of line 35 and insert—
“(a) be made at a time when the licensed premises are open for the purposes of selling alcohol for consumption on the premises; and(b) be made at a time no later than 11.00pm.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would mean that off-sales could not take place after 11pm, regardless of whether the premises can sell alcohol on the premises after 11pm.
Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
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Do not worry, my Lords, this is not going to be a long statement. I thought it might assist noble Lords to know that I intend to table an amendment on Report to introduce a standard cessation time of 11 pm for operators to trade under the new off-sales permissions.

Lord Paddick Portrait Lord Paddick (LD) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her promise of an amendment but, regrettably, we have a series of amendments in this group: Amendments 26, 30, 32, 34 and 35. I will briefly put on the record what they are, although they are set out in the Marshalled List.

In addition to the amendment promised, the Government need to think about amendments that aim to prevent street drinking and disorder, particularly late at night, where late-night licences are in operation for on-licence premises in the vicinity of residential premises, as the Minister has suggested she will do. If revellers who have already consumed a lot of alcohol are allowed to purchase alcohol to take away just before premises close, sometimes just before 3 am, there is a danger that they will simply party in nearby streets, to the detriment of local residents. The Minister’s suggested, albeit completely last-minute, promise of an amendment is welcome to that extent, but, whatever the hour, if alcohol is sold in open containers such as pint beer glasses, there is every incentive to consume it in surrounding streets rather than take it home or to the office. If alcohol is sold without restriction as to the kind of container—such as pint beer glasses—in which it can be supplied, as allowed under the Bill, there is a danger of injury either by assault or by accident; for example, were someone to fall while carrying a beer glass. The potential for both assault and accident increases with consumption of alcohol.

At Second Reading, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, tried to allay these concerns by pointing to the provisions in the Bill to review and revoke off-sales if premises were causing problems, and the power under Section 76 of Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 to close down premises. Those provisions are largely unworkable as they require the particular premises responsible for the problem of street drinking, violence and disorder to be identified. In central London, for example, there are hundreds of on-licence premises within short distances of one another, and it would be practically impossible to identify from which premises the revellers causing the problems had bought their alcohol. There are more than 100 premises with post-1 am licences in Soho alone.

Some of those most likely to be affected, represented by the West End Community Network, will support what the Minister has promised because they support an 11 pm end time for off-sales and have not asked for a restriction on when off-sales can begin. Can the Minister explain why the Government have left it until tonight to give even the slightest indication that they are prepared to bring forward their own amendment? Will she agree to meet me and other interested Peers between now and Report to discuss both the Government’s proposed amendments and the other amendments in my name in this group? In the meantime, despite what the Minister has said, I move Amendment 26 in order for her to respond at the end of the debate.

Lord Russell of Liverpool Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees
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Several speakers have withdrawn from this part of the proceedings: the noble Lords, Lord Harris of Haringey, Lord Randall of Uxbridge, Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, Lord Naseby and Lord Hayward.

Lord Cormack Portrait Lord Cormack [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am glad to take part in this, I am sure, brief debate. I am delighted with the statement made by my noble friend at the beginning but I want to hear more about it.

I was persuaded to table my Amendment 28— incidentally, I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Harris, has signed it; I am grateful to him—for three reasons. One was a speech made by Meg Hillier, the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee in another place, in which she talked about the terrible squalor created by binge drinkers in her constituency. The second was the speech made at Second Reading by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, which was equally graphic and very persuasive. Thirdly, when I was in London last week, I talked to two taxi drivers who had been first-hand witnesses to some appalling scenes.

Selling in open containers is really rather silly. The timing should be restricted. Personally, I would not sell before noon or after 10 pm—the times that I have put in my amendment—but I accept completely that any times are arbitrary, to a degree. It is important that we protect people living in areas where binge drinking at night is a real social evil and menace. I therefore look forward to hearing what my noble friend the Minister says when she winds up. I thank her in anticipation but hope that she will fill in a few details.

Lord Russell of Liverpool Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Lord Whitty? The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, is muted so I call the noble Lord, Lord Robathan.

Lord Robathan Portrait Lord Robathan [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am sure that the Committee will be pleased to know that I will be extremely brief, not least because—I should declare this—the Chief Whip has asked me to be. I should also declare that I have not a financial but a family interest, in that my wife is the leader of Westminster City Council, which has been exercised on behalf of its residents about the idea that people might be able to buy off-sales until six o’clock in the morning.

The other people who are exercised are the traders, as well as the residents, of Soho and elsewhere. They and I welcome the commitment from the Minister, for which I thank her. I will not move my amendment.

Lord Whitty Portrait Lord Whitty (Lab) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will also be brief. The Minister has successfully taken the wind out of our sails on this one. I look forward to what she will say at the end of the debate. This is strictly about off-sales. It is not an anti-pub move; it is a way of avoiding the kind of disorder that the police have experienced and many of us have seen on our screens. It is solely to do with off-sales beyond 11 pm; obviously the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, goes to bed slightly earlier than the rest of us. If the Minister comes up with an 11 pm cut-off, I will listen to the details, but I certainly do not want to detain the Committee any longer.

Baroness Thornhill Portrait Baroness Thornhill [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I, too, have been asked to be brief. It is worth saying that obviously there are serious concerns about the cumulative impact of these issues where premises are gathered together. Certainly, from my experience of running a local authority with, at times, too lively and vibrant a nightlife, saturation must be looked at.

I am grateful that we had a good response on the timing but the overriding principle for me is that, in collaboration with operatives—often through good Pubwatch schemes and the local police—local authorities have come up with conditions to put on these licences. The Bill suspends those and throws them out the window, when they have been put on for good reason and through good collaboration. In principle, I feel that this is an unwelcome move.

My daughter was glassed in the face as a 27 year-old when out with her friends on a normal Saturday night. It can, and does, happen. If only that glass had been plastic. I still think that we have to have that debate on Report.

Amendment 45 in the name of my noble friend Lord Shipley is about the late night levy, which is a curious anomaly that he will expand on. I totally support any change that will allow a local authority to refund pubs for services that they have not received during lockdown while they have been obliged to pay this additional tax. I call my much-shortened remarks to a close.

20:15
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Portrait Baroness McIntosh of Pickering [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, subject to what my noble friend Lady Williams has to say, I lend my support to Amendments 27 and 31, to have a cut-off period for the sale of drink at 11 pm. I hope that is something that she will support.

Baroness Stowell of Beeston Portrait Baroness Stowell of Beeston
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I welcome the Minister’s statement and the Government’s decision to table an amendment on Report. I have one question to ask the Minister: would it be possible for any premises that wanted to introduce an earlier finish time for off-sales to do so? It is very hard to see from reading the Bill whether there is any flexibility in that regard.

Lord Blunkett Portrait Lord Blunkett (Lab)
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My Lords, I touched on this very briefly in the limited time available at Second Reading, so I will not keep the House long tonight, but I will try to put this into some sort of perspective. I cannot for the life of me see what this has to do with recovery and regeneration. I do not get at all what this proposal is supposed to achieve. I get what it will do. I understand entirely, as all those who spoke this evening and at Second Reading did, that whatever the cut-off time for every outlet to be an off-licence—I welcome the proposal of restricting it to 11 pm—the drinking will continue afterwards with drink that has been purchased and therefore is to be consumed. No one should get the idea that this will be fine after 11 pm, because it will not be. That is why, if I was in favour of the measure at all, I would err on the side of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack.

I rest my principal case on the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, at the beginning of this brief debate. Frankly, until the December general election the police did not at all have the capacity to deal with this. They are still trying to recruit. Local authorities’ environmental health functions have been totally decimated over the past 10 years because of the deep cuts and austerity measures, which local authorities have suffered from most. But there is also the absurdity of not leaving this to local discretion, where people know exactly what would and would not work, even if this measure had any justification in terms of deregulation on the grounds of stimulus and recovery.

Are we really saying that, to provide local stimulus and recovery and to help those in the sector who have been devastated, people should have the ability to buy from any licensed outlet, treat it as an off-licence and go on drinking? I am the first to enjoy a drink, but I know from bitter experience, including having been a local authority leader for seven years, just what devastation this can cause. It is not possible for it to be policed, in the widest sense, and age authentication will be more difficult.

However, I rest my case on a very simple fact. When we are faced, as we are now, with withdrawing from the third-largest trading bloc in the world, about to accelerate a trade and economic war against the second-largest trading bloc in the world, and at the mercy, for the time being, of the President of the United States and his attitudes as the leading trade bloc in the world, is deregulating off-licence drinking late into the night anything whatever to do with the recovery of our economy?

Lord Shipley Portrait Lord Shipley [V]
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My Lords, I want to speak to Amendment 45. I referred to the same issues raised by this amendment on the late night levy at Second Reading. On 8 June, I noticed an article in my local newspaper, the Journal, headed: “Campaigners Say Levy Should Be Cut To Save Pubs”. It said that fee levels, having been set by the Government, could be changed only by the Government and that the council was having to seek their permission. It was pointed out by CAMRA, the Campaign for Real Ale, that even though pubs registered to trade after midnight in Newcastle had been closed for 10 weeks, they were still being charged the late-night levy. The council claimed it had no power to change that situation but had asked the Government for additional powers to reduce or waive the fees. In Newcastle, some 240 premises pay the levy, which helps to fund extra policing, street cleaning, taxi marshals and the Street Pastors; I should declare that I am patron of Newcastle Street Pastors. There needs to be local flexibility. I hope that the Minister will look very carefully at this issue and recognise that fee-setting should be a devolved area of policy.

I suspect the problem may have arisen unintentionally at the time that the Bill was passed. This is not about the level of alcohol consumption, nor about how alcohol is served. It is about a charge being levied for a service that is not being provided. Maybe there has been some movement on this matter between government and local authorities. There are three principles at stake: we need clarity on the level of fees levied when pubs are required to close, and the rules for remission of those fees ought to be clear to them; we need clarity on the powers that local authorities have, and will have, on this levy; and we need a full review of licensing legislation to re-examine which powers should be held centrally and which locally. I hope very much that the Minister will understand this problem and will agree with my suggestions.

Lord Balfe Portrait Lord Balfe [V]
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My Lords, I welcomed the Minister’s statement at the beginning. I am glad that she made it then; it has saved a lot of argument, has it not? I have two major points. The first follows up on the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell. In Cambridge, where I live and from where I cite things, the local authority has multiple problems with alcohol. One of the ways it has tackled this is that there has been a tendency in the case of stores near the centre of town—in other words, those situated on the way in to the clubs where drinking takes place—to say that they can sell alcohol on an off-licence basis only until 10 rather than 11 pm. Although the store can stay open until 11 pm, the alcohol licence permits it to sell only until 10. Can the Minister tell us whether this power will remain with a local authority so that, in certain areas and in certain circumstances, the alcohol licence has to cease before 11 pm, with the decision made obviously on a case-by-case basis?

My second point is in support of the amendments about open containers and beer glasses, which really are—or can be—pretty lethal weapons. I hope that the Minister will agree either to accept the principles of these amendments or to bring forward a government amendment. The potential for open containers or beer glasses to cause damage is, I am afraid, quite considerable; there is a very strong case for saying that closed containers should be used for the sale of alcohol. I invite the Minister to say either that she will accept an amendment at the next stage, or that the Government will bring forward an amendment to cover these points.

Baroness Noakes Portrait Baroness Noakes
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My Lords, I am happy to wait to hear what my noble friend the Minister has to say.

Lord Sheikh Portrait Lord Sheikh [V]
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My Lords, I was going to speak in favour of Amendment 27 but, in the light of what my noble friend the Minister said earlier, I will speak in favour of Amendments 30, 32 and 35. The issue that worries me is how alcohol is sold to be taken away. It should be sold in sealed containers. If it is sold in glasses, these should be plastic, not beer or wine glasses. I am worried that glass can be used to cause injury to others.

We have seen how people behaved in the streets on Friday and Saturday nights before the lockdown. There were fights at night which police, ambulance staff and hospitals had to deal with. It is not only men; women also misbehave when they have too much to drink. I used to go to the City of London, as I had an office there. I used to see business and professional people who were sober and well-behaved during the day but who behaved badly after consuming alcohol. I therefore support the amendments which I referred to.

Baroness Pinnock Portrait Baroness Pinnock [V]
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My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, has given the Committee an assurance that the Government will bring forward an amendment about restricting the time at which off-sales can be made to a limit of 11 pm. This is most welcome and deals with some, but not all, the issues raised in the amendments in this group. However, we need to see the detail of such an amendment, including the start time of off-sales under the Bill.

Noble Lords have heard the wise words of an experienced professional. My noble friend Lord Paddick knows what he is talking about. He knows at first hand the horrible injuries that can come from mixing too much drink with broken glass. He knows that this has to be curtailed. The arguments are powerful. All noble Lords who have previous or current experience in local government know how vitally important it is that these concerns are dealt with. I added my name to the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Paddick and look forward to them having a positive response from the Government.

My noble friend Lord Shipley asked about reducing the late-night levy for businesses whose premises were closed under the coronavirus restrictions. This is eminently sensible, and I hope that the Government can agree to the content of the amendment.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark
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My Lords, I thank the Minister for the announcement she made to the Committee at the start of this debate. I appreciate this and look forward to seeing the amendment which the Government will bring forward. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Penn. When we met online they were very kind and listened to the issues raised, as they did at Second Reading when there was genuine concern around the House about the consequences of this additional permission. I am pleased that the Government have listened and look forward to seeing the amendment.

I also thank my noble friend Lord Whitty, the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, and the noble Lord, Lord Robathan, for supporting the amendments I have put forward. There was also a formidable team in the leaders of the London Boroughs of Southwark, Camden and the City of Westminster, and the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea—four boroughs with the vast majority of these licences, all saying that this would cause huge problems for them—who all came together to write a joint letter. It is good that the Government have listened to the points they made. I also have to thank the Covent Garden Community Association which was rightly vociferous about the problems this would cause—they accept that they live in a very lively area, but this would be a step too far. We began to receive support over the last few days from other local authorities and community groups, and we thank them all.

20:30
We all want to see the hospitality sector get back on its feet, and we fully understand the Government’s intent here. But of course we were all concerned at what we saw in Soho and also in Shoreditch. In the other place, my friend Meg Hillier, the MP for Hackney South and Shoreditch, raised in the debates there the huge problems they already have in London Fields without these amendments. They have problems with people drinking, and urinating in the bushes—and doing worse in the bushes—and it is just not fair that residents have to put up with that. Again, I am pleased that the Government have listened. We need to ensure that, as my noble friend Lord Blunkett said, while we want to support the local economy, we have to recognise the role of residents. The case for these amendments was reasonable, sensible and proportionate.
I will also make a few comments on Amendment 45, in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, which would add a new clause to the Bill to deal with the very separate issue of reducing the late night levy for premises shut during the coronavirus pandemic. That seems a good idea to me, and local authorities should have a say in determining the levies and applying a reduction. The Government should clarify how they are engaging with councils in the process of determining these levies. It seems only reasonable that you get some reduction in the levy you pay, if you have been shut during the pandemic and unable to actually trade. I will leave my comments there, I thank the Government again and I look forward to the response from the noble Baroness.
Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
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I thank all noble Lords for their comments, and their discipline in not repeating the same remarks over and over again.

The noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, made a very good point about how local areas and local partners will cope with all this and their capacity to cope if things go wrong. We have been very clear from the outset that, if things do go wrong, if licensees do not enforce their obligations and the public start to behave in a reckless manner, these places will be closed. The licensing authorities are quite clear about that and have already started to close premises when things have gotten out of hand. Over lockdown, I have spent a lot of time talking to the police on their operational calls. They are very clear that this is a multi-stakeholder approach and that everyone—not only the police, not only the local authorities, but the public and the licensees themselves—has a responsibility to make this work well.

On how this will help the economy, the night-time economy is a very vibrant one, and footfall in town centres can only enhance it. The Government have, however, listened to and sympathised with the concerns around the possibility of associated noise, nuisance, and anti-social behaviour that might occur when a late licence is in existence.

The noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, asked about off-sales. The noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, tells me that in the olden days off-sales were a common occurrence at pubs and are nothing new, but with the advent of off-licences and supermarkets selling alcohol they are not so common anymore.

The noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, asked about cumulative impact areas. I covered that in my earlier comments.

To recap, the alcohol licensing provisions will allow all licensed premises with an on-sales licence to sell alcohol for consumption off the premises, provided they have not previously been refused permission for off-sales. In the draft of the Bill before the House, licensed premises which are eligible will be bound by a temporary licence condition which limits the hours of trade to the existing hours of operation as the premises’ on-sales licence permits, which can include late licences beyond 11 pm.

However, we recognise the concerns of noble Lords who have spoken to these amendments, and obviously local authorities have had concerns too. That is why we intend to a table an amendment on Report to introduce a standard cessation time of 11 pm for operators to trade under new off-sales permissions.

Both my noble friends Lord Balfe and Lady Stowell of Beeston asked about earlier finish times. If that is the wish then those earlier finish times will certainly be permitted.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked me why tonight and why at the last minute. I say to the noble Lord that I have worked really hard to make this statement tonight, so to have had it done ahead of Report is an achievement.

The new provisions defined in the amendment that the Government will bring forward will not affect the underlying licences of premises or their conditions. It will provide for new permissions that will apply to the holders of only on-sales licences, as well as to holders of more restrictive dual licences that allow for off-sales for a more restrictive period. The effect of the amendment will be that new permissions will apply only up to 11 pm or when the current licensing hours for that premises end. I reiterate for the benefit of my noble friend Lord Cormack that if it is wished that that will finish earlier—say, 10 pm—that is up to the individual premises concerned.

Crucially, the forthcoming amendment will build on the current set of safeguards previously heard by the House, which can be used to address concerns about crime, disorder and disruption caused by premises operating irresponsibly—to go to the point of the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett. That includes the new expedited review process that I have talked about previously, which allows a local authority to suspend or modify the new off-sales permission within 48 hours and then hold a hearing to decide whether to revoke, suspend or modify the permission within 28 days.

In addition, the police are already empowered under Section 76 of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 to issue immediate closure notices to premises if there are reasonable grounds to believe that the use of a particular premises has resulted or is likely to result in nuisance to members of the public or that there has been or is likely to be disorder near the premises which is associated with the use of those premises. I spoke to the Metropolitan Police the other day and they stand ready to use Section 34 and 35 dispersal notices if necessary.

We also intend to publish guidance alongside the Bill that will set out the details of how the new provisions, including the details of the amendment, will apply to premises and local authorities. I hope that addresses the concerns raised by the noble Lords who tabled the amendments and that the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, will be content to withdraw his amendment.

I turn to Amendments 32 and 35, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, and the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock. They relate to the sale of alcohol for consumption in open and glass containers. The Government agree that premises must be responsible for the manner in which they serve alcohol in all circumstances, and that includes minimising the risk of any associated disorder. We will therefore be including recommendations to address issues regarding glassware in the guidance for local authorities and premises that will accompany these provisions. The guidance will encourage the use of closed or non-glass containers such as reusable plastic cups. However, we also recognise that restaurants in particular will benefit from being able to serve alcohol in open containers in outdoor areas that they may use under the provisions in the Bill relating to pavement licences. Premises may have different serving equipment and preferences, and the provisions need to remain flexible to meet business and customer needs. Requiring that alcohol sold in these circumstances must be in a closed container could hinder premises that might want to take advantage of the aims of the Bill. I therefore determine that it would be too prescriptive to specify in the Bill restrictions on the type of containers that can be used for the off-trade permission, and I hope the noble Lord will be content not to move his amendment.

Lastly, the Government are sympathetic to the concerns behind Amendment 45, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, regarding the late-night levy. That is why, in April, the Minister for Crime and Policing wrote to the chairs of the licensing committees to ask them to take a more flexible and pragmatic approach during the coronavirus outbreak, while ensuring that the licensing objectives are safeguarded. I am grateful to the licensing authorities for ensuring that the system has continued to operate during this trying time.

Local authorities of course have discretion when considering non-payment or late payment of an annual premises licence fee or a late-night levy charge. While the Licensing Act 2003 requires that the licence be suspended, it is possible to delay when that suspension takes effect. I hope and expect that businesses experiencing difficulties will make the licensing authority aware and that the licensing authority will treat such businesses sympathetically. In his letter, the Minister for Crime further advised authorities to consider delaying any suspension of the licence where the delay in payment or non-payment was related to Covid-19. I hope that that is a reasonable explanation and that the noble Lord will be content not to move his amendment.

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Portrait Baroness Finlay of Llandaff [V]
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My Lords, I am most grateful to noble Lords for allowing me to intervene. The speech of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, was very powerful and I welcome the Minister’s statement. I declare that I chair the Commission on Alcohol Harms.

The chair of the Police Federation of England and Wales recently said that it was “crystal clear” that drunk people were unable to socially distance. But let us not forget that the price of beer in the off trade has fallen by 40% relative to the price of other goods since 2000, and pubs have been unable to match the low price. Publicans see cheap supermarket alcohol as a grave danger both to their commercial interests and to the country’s health, and 83% of publicans believe that supermarket alcohol is too cheap. So what happens about off-sales from supermarkets? If these very cheap, highly promoted sales are not tackled, the plan to revive pubs as social meeting places and for the support they can provide in terms of integrating people and supporting our economy will just fail.

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
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My Lords, the off-sale of cheap alcohol is not a novel concept in terms of the Bill. I totally concur with the noble Baroness’s concerns about the harms of alcohol and about the accessibility of cheap alcohol attracting people who might not have enough money to go to the pub. Ironically, that is why I support pubs: because drinking is done in a much more controlled way. Licensees have an obligation to chuck people out of the pub if they are behaving irresponsibly. Therefore, landlords are prohibited from selling off-sales as well as on-sales to someone who is clearly drunk. It is a good safeguard.

Lord Paddick Portrait Lord Paddick [V]
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My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Balfe and Lord Sheikh, for supporting Amendments 30, 32 and 35. There appears to have been a mis-communication over the extent of the amendments that the Government were going to bring forward on Report, which took me slightly off guard—so, with the leave of the House, I will say something more.

I thank the West End Community Network, the Soho Society and the Covent Garden Community Association for their briefings on these issues. I am grateful for the Minister agreeing that new off-sales should be limited to 11 pm. But the Minister does not appear to have heard my reasoning as to why the measures she set out to vary off-sales licences and the power that the police have to close on-licence premises are not effective. I will not repeat them again; I will allow her to read them in Hansard.

20:45
Whatever the hour, however, if alcohol is sold in open containers such as pint beer glasses there is every incentive to consume the alcohol in surrounding streets, rather than taking it home or to the office. Serving alcohol under a pavement licence on the pavement is not, as the Minister suggested, about off-sales in open containers. It is an on-sale—therefore that argument is completely spurious.
It is not permitted to carry alcohol in open containers on many forms of public transport, such as TfL buses, tubes and trams. This would bring the provisions of the Bill into conflict with other laws. I do not want to distress noble Lords by describing in too much detail my own experience, as a police officer, of conveying to hospital a young man who had a broken beer glass pushed into his face. Suffice to say that his injuries were horrific and his blood loss considerable. The shock caused him to shake uncontrollably. Some experiences you never forget; the life-changing injuries that he received would have made it even worse.
Amendments 30 and 32 seek to prohibit off-sales in open containers and Amendment 35 seeks, albeit imperfectly, to ensure that off-sales are restricted to sales of alcohol in robust containers that are resistant to being deliberately broken and used as weapons, or accidentally being broken and causing injury; and, in particular, preventing off-sales in beer glasses. Nothing that the Minister has said this evening reassures me on any of those other amendments, but I look forward to discussing them with her between now and Report. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 26.
Amendment 26 withdrawn.
Amendments 27 to 39 not moved.
Clause 11 agreed.
Amendments 40 and 41 not moved.
Lord Russell of Liverpool Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees
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We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 42. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this amendment, or any other amendment in this group, to a Division should make that clear in debate.

Amendment 42

Moved by
42: After Clause 11, insert the following new Clause—
“Support for the tourism and hospitality sector
(1) The Secretary of State must—(a) carry out a review of the effect of Part 1 of this Act on the tourism and hospitality sector in England and Wales; (b) set out the conclusions of the review in a report;(c) publish the report; and(d) arrange for copies of the report to be laid before both Houses of Parliament before 31 January 2021.(2) The report under subsection (1) must also make an assessment of the effects of this Act on the tourism and hospitality sector in England and Wales compared with possible further and complementary measures, including, but not limited to, extending through to 2021 the period of operation in that sector of—(a) the furlough scheme,(b) Bounce Back loans, or(c) other grants or financial support from public funds.”
Baroness Anelay of St Johns Portrait Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Con) [V]
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My Lords, Amendment 42 stands in my name on the Marshalled List and I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, for adding his name in support. I strongly support the Bill and hope that it reaches the statute book quickly, and without too much difficulty next week on Report.

My proposed new clause would ensure that there is a review to examine the effect of the Bill’s proposals for the tourism and hospitality sector through to the end of January 2021. They would be compared with other measures, such as extending the furlough scheme, the grants currently available, and the assistance to the sector announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer just last Wednesday. My objective, however, is to probe how and when the Government plan to review the operation of these proposals in a manner which facilitates proper parliamentary scrutiny.

The Government have moved quickly over the past few weeks to extend support for the hospitality and tourism industry beyond the end of October, when much of the support for wider areas of the economy will either end or be amended. I therefore welcome the Government’s policy paper Plan for Jobs, which recognises that:

“Pubs, restaurants, cafés, and bars are mainstays of the nation’s high street … while the accommodation sector ensures that visitors can enjoy the sights, experiences and attractions the country has to offer.”


The paper acknowledges that they have

“been among the hardest hit by the pandemic and necessary restrictions.”

It is clear that the tourism and hospitality industry has planned carefully to welcome visitors back as quickly but as safely as possible in these pandemic times. They have invested in and installed Covid-19 sanitary and distancing practices, but some businesses have indicated that they simply will not be able to reopen in time to benefit from the summer season.

The added challenge the sector faces is that, in many parts of the country, tourism and hospitality sectors operate on a seasonal basis. My family holidays are to Cornwall in the summer and sometimes in the winter, and I have seen the severity of the impact on businesses, at the end of the summer season, across that beautiful county. Hotels mostly remain open in some of the major resorts, but there tends to be strong competition for their winter visitors and they struggle even to cover their overheads. The impact of Covid-19 is set to make that even worse.

Some major events have already been cancelled this summer and that will affect local economies at what should be their best money-making time. To give just one example, the Tour of Britain cycle race was due to start in Penzance in Cornwall, in September, but has been postponed until September next year. That event would have given a major boost to the tourism industry across the whole county.

We all fervently hope that there is not going to be a second spike of Covid-19, but we have also seen reports that medical experts believe there is likely to be one during winter. The potential impact on tourism and hospitality should be considered when the Government prepare policy initiatives throughout the rest of this year.

In selecting the date of 31 January 2021, by which the Secretary of State would be required to lay a report before Parliament, I had regard to the following factors. It would cover the winter season, including the partial increase in visitor numbers over Christmas and the new year. It would also cover the period of support that the Government have already promised. It would also be as light touch as possible, since it requires one report six months after this month. I beg to move.

Earl of Clancarty Portrait The Earl of Clancarty [V]
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My Lords, I support the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, and I also support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy. The amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, would enable us to take a wider and longer-term view, beyond the narrow confines of the Bill. It is important that a careful eye is kept on the hospitality sector, particularly its workforce. Worryingly, we are now hearing of job losses, which will surely increase if the furlough and self-employed schemes end before tourism can properly get going again. It is worth noting that the self-employed are becoming an ever more significant component of the workforce in the hospitality sector.

The noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, talked about Cornwall. My wife and daughter are intending to go to Cornwall for a week, next weekend. It will be the first time anyone has made a serious move outside our house for a long time. I am staying home to be near the Lords Chamber, aka our repurposed front room. I do not think my family want the Lords down in Cornwall for the week but, as for anyone taking a holiday anywhere this summer, these decisions could be changed at a moment’s notice, because of the fear of a local lockdown or even a second wave that affects much of the country. Areas such as Cornwall, which have not been hit badly, will nevertheless be on tenterhooks. They do not want the virus of course, but they need the tourism.

The noble Baroness also mentioned events. My family was also looking at whether it would be possible to visit the Minack Theatre, which is one of the venues around the country that is starting to open. They will be back home before Tate St Ives opens on 27 July. Opening dates and whether events happen will, for some, affect whether a trip to Cornwall or anywhere else is viable. Arts and cultural events, alongside the hospitality sector, are hugely important to tourism and, with hospitality, form a whole commercial ecosystem significant apart from its cultural value. The Plan for Jobs, referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, does not recognise this ecosystem.

As the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, pointed out at Second Reading, tourists from abroad come here primarily for our arts and heritage, but of course they book into hotels and go out for dinner as well. We will be discussing the arts later with regard to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, but do the Government intend to introduce analogous regulations for the arts along with perhaps some creative temporary measures as that sector opens up? In terms of these amendments, every part of the wider ecology will contribute to successful tourism when it gets going properly again, so in this respect it needs to be understood that the whole is greater than the parts.

Lord Russell of Liverpool Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees
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The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, has withdrawn from the list so I now call the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey.

Baroness Doocey Portrait Baroness Doocey (LD) [V]
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My Lords, I shall speak briefly to support Amendment 42, which articulates an excellent idea and one that I hope the Government will take up. A similar amendment was moved in the Commons by my colleague, Tim Farron MP, whose constituency in Cumbria is very much at the heart of the tourist industry. His constituency has seen the biggest increase in unemployment in the country—up by 314% since March. Meanwhile, 37% of the entire workforce in that area has been on furlough. His constituency is just one of those in which the income from tourism has been decimated.

I believe that there is a special case for additional sectoral support for the industry, which would instil much-needed confidence in the many seasonal businesses and in the seasonal workers who depend on them. Most of these businesses operate on a profit margin of just about 10%, so many of them will not even be viable because, as a result of social distancing, they can operate at only 50% or less of their capacity. By signalling now that the industry’s safety net will not be cut away just when thousands of businesses and jobs may need to rely on it, the Government can avoid many damaging job losses.

Baroness Uddin Portrait Baroness Uddin [V]
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I am pleased to follow the detailed observations made by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, and the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty. I shall speak in support of Amendments 42 and 78.

Extraordinary business support schemes have been put in place. I am mindful of the fact that these provisions make it easier for businesses to access government support in the form of, among others, bounce-back loans and the furlough scheme, alongside other forms of financial support. The review being suggested in the amendment is necessary to ensure the most impactful use of public funds. It is equally imperative that the Government should take this opportunity to make an impact assessment of these measures on the living standards of those working in this low-paid sector, as well as considering ethnic and gender differentials. They can then reassess the measures that will be required to mitigate the disproportionate effect on these groups, particularly among those who have not been able to access successfully many of the Government’s funding regimes. As a result, some otherwise successful business owners became unemployed overnight during the lockdown and they are now having to resort to applying for universal credit. It is a safety net, yes, but it is not adequate to meet the needs of any family.

I take heart from the fact that at its core, the Bill is about kick-starting the economy while keeping in sight all the prerequisite safety restrictions. The business owners I have spoken to welcome the support given by the Government to the hospitality sector and the economy more widely. The discretionary schemes which have been delivered through local authorities may have helped save thousands of companies from bankruptcy and thus will have protected jobs. However, I am duty bound to remind the Government about the large number of businesses which have not accessed any support at all because they have fallen outside the policy parameters.

Three-quarters of businesses operating in the accommodation and food service sectors have paused or stopped trading in response to the Covid-19 outbreak. It would be remiss of me not to say that I have witnessed at first hand how many curry houses have put aside their own pain while trying their best to survive by becoming the first source of free food supplies for first responders in the NHS and for the many food banks across our country.

21:00
Economic output in the food and beverage sector fell by nearly 90%. Many did not experience the security of the furlough schemes, and the job retention bonus will not assist hospitality, particularly the curry sector. Many restaurants will not survive until then, while a significant number of others will struggle to remain viable under the 30% reduction in capacity required by social distancing conditions.
UK hospitality organisations point out that, in addition to reduced turnover, they face the consequences of deferred rents and bills as they reopen. The Chancellor’s new announcement brings the wider sector into the fold, but unless we secure this sector in the purview of the Bill, others are likely to be impacted by the domino effect. The Chancellor’s new Eat Out to Help Out discount scheme, providing a 50% reduction for sit-down meals in restaurants, cafés and pubs and cutting VAT on most tourism- and hospitality-related activities from 20% to 5%, is a welcome relief for many in the curry industry.
I have spoken to Dr Sanawar Choudhury from the British Bangladesh Chamber of Commerce & Industry, Pasha Khandaker, former president of the Bangladesh Caterers Association, and its current president, Mohammed Abdul Munim. They lead a membership that is nearly 5,000 strong, with approximately 12,000 restaurants responsible for the livelihoods of over 150,000 families. According to many of these member-led organisations, while they agree that the business grants are helpful, cash flow remains a significant burden. Some have found it challenging to obtain the required support and are at breaking point. The little help that has come has been discretionary and without any appeal processes. There is great appreciation and relief about the recent announcement of VAT reduction, and the removal of the application requirement for the loans not to be subjected to affordability tests is a great source of respite.
I hope the Government will consider working with these industry leaders and exploring the type of assistance that may be helpful for their members in this sector to protect and harness a £4 billion industry with significant employers across the whole UK. Can the Minister say whether the Government have undertaken any discussions with the Bangladesh Caterers Association and the British Bangladesh Chamber of Commerce & Industry? These organisations are in an excellent position to act as a hub where specialist SMEs and the curry businesses can go for help and advice in accessing government initiatives. Will the Minister consider meeting me and a number of leaders and representatives from this sector to consider how best to assist the curry industry?
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Portrait Baroness McIntosh of Pickering [V]
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My Lords, the amendments in this group have much to commend them. I support Amendment 42 in the name of my noble friend Lady Anelay in particular. It is important that the provisions before us today are carried out effectively and that the balance we all wish to achieve between the hospitality and tourism sector and the rights of residents and other users is maintained. By the end of January 2021 is a good reporting period. Amendment 78 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, also has much to commend it, but I fear that a monthly report is a very tall order. I look forward with interest to my noble friend the Minister’s response to this group.

Baroness Pinnock Portrait Baroness Pinnock [V]
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The amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, lays bare the deep concerns of the tourism sector. The Government’s response will be crucial. As my noble friend Lady Doocey said, the tourism sector is on a knife-edge. The example she gave from the Lake District is no doubt being felt elsewhere in regions dependent on tourism. In replying to the debate, I hope the Minister can give hope and help to these regions.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark
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My Lords, this group contains two amendments: Amendment 42, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay of St Johns, and the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and Amendment 78, in my name. These probing amendments seek to highlight wider issues surrounding support for the hospitality sector. As we heard in the debate, the industry desperately needs government backing to see it through the coming months, which is why this House is supporting the Bill and why it is seeking improvements to make it even better.

I welcome Amendment 42 and entirely agree with the comments of the noble Baroness and the noble Earl. The amendment introduces the requirement for a review of support. Given that these are labour-intensive businesses, we should bear in mind that there is an enormous unemployment risk if businesses in this sector collapse.

Amendment 78 in my name aims to start a debate on two issues plaguing the hospitality sector, the first of which is lack of consumer confidence. Many people are still cautious about visiting hospitality venues, and the Government must play an active role in encouraging customers to return safely. The second issue is rent disputes. One large pub chain told us that disputes between tenanted pubs and their owners are still unresolved and there is no effective mechanism to fix this. I hope the Government can explain how they will encourage consumer confidence to help people return to pubs.

Obviously, this is a probing amendment that highlights these issues and seeks a government response regarding how they see these points being resolved in a satisfactory way that keeps businesses open, staff working safely and customers coming through the doors, reassured that they can enjoy themselves and spend money safely. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Baroness Penn Portrait Baroness Penn (Con)
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My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Anelay, the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for their amendments. Through her amendment, my noble friend Lady Anelay raised the question of how the Government will review its measures to support the hospitality and tourism sector, and the parliamentary scrutiny of those measures. She also said that the date she had chosen for that review was the end of January. However, although some of the Government’s measures will have come to an end by then, because we are going through different phases in our response to coronavirus, many will be ongoing, not least some in the Bill such as pavement licensing and those that allow for a second summer of support, should we still be in a world of social distancing by then.

The coronavirus job retention scheme bonus will be paid from the end of January, so while we will have seen the end of the summer and potentially a more tricky autumn and winter period for the hospitality and tourism industry, we will only be part of the way through the Government’s response to the pandemic, and may be in a new phase of it.

There will be measures in place on 31 January and beyond to support the sector. Many noble Lords have spoken of the importance of the sector and how particularly hard hit it is. That is why measures are in place to support it—not only those in the Bill but the business grants that have been given to the retail, hospitality and leisure sectors, the business rates holidays now in place and the Bounce Back Loan Scheme grant. That grant is an example of our looking back at how these measures have worked after the event, and of our constantly reviewing and adapting our policy response. The bounce-back loans were a response to smaller businesses struggling to get access to the finance they need, many of which are in the hospitality and tourism sector.

Turning to the support we have provided for the tourism and hospitality sector, there is a £1.3 million destination management organisation resilience fund to support local tourism organisations in England, and the £10 million kick-starting tourism package, which gives small businesses and tourist destinations grants of up to £5,000 to help them adapt their business following Covid. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, mentioned giving people confidence to go out and enjoy our tourist destinations; the kick-starting tourism package and allowing people to become more Covid-secure will contribute to that. We also have an “enjoy summer safely” campaign to market all the attractions available for people to enjoy in a safe and Covid-secure way.

I would also like to reassure the House this is not the end of the story. The DDCMS will continue to engage with stakeholders, including through the Cultural Renewal Taskforce and the Visitor Economy Working Group, to assess how we can effectively support tourism’s recovery across the UK.

I turn now to Amendment 78, which addresses various aspects of data protection. The Government publish relevant data on the Covid business lending schemes weekly, including the number of applications received and the number and value of facilities approved. Since 11 June we have been publishing monthly data on the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme, broken down by employer size, sector and geography. That has allowed us to design measures more targeted at those that are struggling. For example, the Job Retention Bonus, set at a flat rate, will benefit those in the lower paid jobs and lower paid sectors more, because it will act as a greater incentive in those sectors. Furthermore, Visit England publishes a great deal of research, including regular surveys on visitor attractions, accommodation occupancy, day visits and Great Britain tourism. The ONS publishes fortnightly surveys on the business impacts of coronavirus which include sector-specific information. We will continue to engage with the sectors in the ways I have already mentioned.

The noble Baroness, Lady Uddin, mentioned some of the further measures announced last week that we have put in place to support the hospitality sector, including the “eat out to help out” scheme. Again, that discount is not just a financial incentive; it is about getting people out there to see that it is safe and secure to be out and about.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, raised the issue of premises that cannot afford to pay their rent because of Covid-19. They are currently protected from eviction. That protection was extended once already to the end of September 2020 and there is the option to extend it further if necessary.

The Government also published a code of practice for the commercial property sector. This will facilitate discussions during the moratorium over rent arrears and future payments between landlords and tenants to ensure best practice across the sector.

For the reasons I have set out, I hope my noble friend Lady Anelay and the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, will be able to withdraw their Amendment and that the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, will not move his Amendment 78 when it is reached.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns Portrait Baroness Anelay of St Johns [V]
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My Lords, first, I would like to thank all those who have spoken in this relatively short debate, especially, of course, the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, for signing up to the amendment. I would normally refer to the contributions of all speakers, but I am keenly aware that certain groups of amendments have yet to be considered. I will therefore simply say a few words of thanks to my noble friend the Minister. I am grateful to her for recognising that although the measures in this Bill are intended for the most part to be temporary, it is set against a much wider background of a longer period in which the Government will continue to consider the necessary policies. They must consider the outcome of the policies to ameliorate the impact of Covid-19 now, and consider the longer-term impact—not only if there is a second spike—going forward. I particularly welcomed her saying—I paraphrase—that DCMS would continue to engage with stakeholders in the hospitality industry.

My only request for the Government is to consider that the hospitality industry’s investment in preparation for its major summer season next year—which will need to be really good to recover from this—will start early in the year. It will therefore be important for the Government to consider engaging early in the new year to be able to give some confidence to those in the hospitality industry that it is worth them continuing to invest, at what for them will be a very difficult time to do so. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 42.

Amendment 42 withdrawn.
Amendments 43 to 45 not moved.
21:15
Baroness Garden of Frognal Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)
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I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this or any other amendment in this group to a Division should make that clear in debate.

Clause 12: Removal of powers of court in relation to unfair relationships

Amendment 46

Moved by
46: Clause 12, page 21, line 8, at end insert “insofar as such an order would relate to affordability or terms of the credit agreement required by the Bounce Back Loan Scheme.”
Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted Portrait Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted [V]
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My Lords, I have two amendments in this group and thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, and my noble friend Lord German for their support. These amendments follow up on points I made at Second Reading about whether it was right to suspend all of Section 140B of the Consumer Credit Act or, as my Amendment 46 suggests, only where it is related to affordability and terms required by the Bounce Back Loans Scheme.

In this context it is important to note that neither Section 140B on court remedies nor Section 140A defining the scope of an unfair relationship is limited to, or specifically mentions, matters of affordability. The court can take all matters into consideration and, if truth be told, there should be no need for any waiving of the section as the government terms for bounce-back loans would be taken into consideration.

We know that the banks want belt-and-braces protection and I would give them that on affordability, but it is wholly wrong to remove every protection, giving banks belt and braces while stripping small businesses naked against other overbearing activity; charges and default procedures immediately spring to mind.

The Minister explained in reply at Second Reading—I can agree with this—that the Government have put conditions to the loan that are intended to ensure it is sustainable, limiting to 25% of turnover with fixed, affordable interest as well as the 100% guarantee. I also agree that the businesses need to take responsibility. Despite that, defaults will inevitably happen because it is unpredictable what the effects of coronavirus will be.

The question then becomes: what governs subsequent behaviour? On the one hand—I am sure this worries the Treasury—what incentives are there for banks to try very hard to get repayment, especially if they get too tough and people like me make a fuss and cause them reputational harm? Is it not easier for them to just rely on the government guarantee? On the other hand, the relationship between a lender—or a lender pressed by government—and a small debtor is inherently one of the powerful against the weak and can be abused.

In the Commons, Kevin Hollinrake said that as co-chair of the All-Party Group on Fair Business Banking he supported

“the suspension of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 with regard to bounce-back loans due to affordability issues,”

and asked:

“but does the Secretary of State agree that it is vital that lenders still comply with the requirement to treat customers fairly in the collection process or if there are debt issues later on and that forbearance is applied?”

The Business Secretary replied:

“my hon. Friend raises an incredibly important point. Yes, forbearance is part of these measures, and we would expect that very much to apply.”—[Official Report, Commons, 29/6/20; col. 52.]

At Second Reading last week the noble Lord the Minister said that the Government were convening workshops with lenders to discuss how they will seek to recover loans where feasible, but none of that guarantees or restrains what lenders will do.

Although the lender cannot require security over personal property, security over the assets of the business is still possible, which may well be the essential tools of the trade, so carefully put out of reach during moratorium in the recent insolvency Act. What is to stop that at the first sign of default? As noble Lords have frequently reminded the Government, it is not the friendly local bank manager who deals with defaults; they go to the hard-nosed recovery units, where even the existing consumer protections seem to have held little sway, because small businesses cannot afford to take the matter to court and the FCA is reluctant to intervene in contracts, one-sided though they may be.

None of this, however, justifies removal of the last-stand method of redress of the courts for matters that are an improper use of unequal power: no protection against gouging behaviour over charges as soon as there is any default; no protection for excessive demands over security of a business’s assets; no preventing the use of the bounce-back loan default to trigger other eventualities, perhaps to force unfavourable loans or restructuring, which might then include instances where personal guarantees have been given. All those possible actions, of types seen in the past, seem to be outside the spirit of the bounce-back loans and the assurance given by the Business Secretary in the Commons, but how will they be prevented or rectified?

Disapplying the court remedy is removing a safety net available in all other circumstances. Why should it not apply here? Further, it seems that corresponding FCA discipline may also be disapplied, and other consumer credit matters have already been disapplied through statutory instruments. Returning to the matter of the workshops with lenders, will the outcome of those workshops be shared with Members of this House or the public?

It is not that I am necessarily expecting the worst behaviour, but the law must be able to address the worst. Therefore, I have put forward two amendments. Amendment 46 is exactly what Kevin Hollinrake said, and states that the disapplication should apply only

“insofar as such an order would relate to affordability or terms of the credit agreement required by the Bounce Back Loan Scheme.”

Amendment 47 says that:

“Repayment, rearrangement, fees or other new requirements may not be imposed on Bounce Back Loans in consequence of terms in or trigger events in other financial agreements with the lender.”


This is to prevent the kind of reach-through that I have mentioned previously.

Finally, I must mention that I understand Amendment 48, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and his anxiety to get at the statistics of bounce-back loans. I add that, in a year’s time, I will start to become anxious to have statistics on repayments, defaults and forbearance. I beg to move.

Baroness Altmann Portrait Baroness Altmann (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I support Amendment 46, to which I have added my name, and congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, on her vigilance with respect to small businesses that are in a weakened financial state due to the Covid-19 restrictions; and her efforts to assist them in facing the large banks that may be trying to recover bounce-back loans, or penalise struggling firms in ways that were never intended by emergency legislation. I also congratulate the Government on their bounce-back loans initiative. However, I believe that this amendment is necessary to potentially address the asymmetry of power, which is a significant potential threat to the future of many hard-hit SMEs.

SMEs could face draconian recovery tactics, such as were employed by the infamous Global Recovery Group after the 2008 financial crisis, whether in the form of excessive fees or the taking over of business assets. The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, is right that a court remedy is essential, not least to avoid giving a potential carte blanche to some of the less scrupulous bank executives.

Many banks wish to behave well, but this amendment is aimed at those who may not do so and is trying to anticipate and deter some of the practices that we have seen before. Bounce-bank loans are surely intended to help as many businesses as possible bounce bank, especially SMEs, rather than to offer a heads-you-win, tails-you-lose opportunity to lenders at the expense of business owners who were forced by the Government to suspend or curtail their business’s activity.

I also support the aims of Amendments 47 and 48 and hope that the Minister will listen carefully and agree to bring back amendments on Report that address this potential issue.

Lord German Portrait Lord German [V]
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My Lords, I, too, support these amendments and have added my name to them. Section 140A of the Consumer Credit Act provides protections for borrowers in loans except where they are regulated mortgages or home purchase matters. The Act protects borrowers in connection with any credit agreement, except those related to home purchases, through court orders which may be awarded where the lender has gone beyond the terms of an agreement, applied the rules inappropriately or otherwise behaved inappropriately. The powers of the courts in this Act are drawn very widely and are designed to ensure that loopholes and lacunas which lenders might use to secure repayment have been covered off.

In their amendments to that Act in this Bill, the Government seek to remove the protections provided by the Consumer Credit Act where bounce-back loans have been provided. The Act provides broad powers to the court to bring lenders into line, including requiring lenders to repay moneys to a borrower, stopping lenders undertaking actions against the borrower in relation to their loan, requiring lenders to set aside any measures the court thinks are inappropriate and enforcing changes on the lender. This Bill, if unamended, would remove those protections in their entirety, except for in two circumstances.

Amendment 46, in the name of my noble friend Lady Bowles, limits the powers of these protections to the strict terms of the bounce-back loan and removes lenders’ ability to weave in other conditions, which the borrower has in respect of other loans and credit facilities, into the bounce-back loan arrangement. Adding such additional conditions is precisely the sort of hurdle which the Consumer Credit Act is designed to avoid—for example, using the terms of an existing loan with the bank to apply to the bounce-back loan, such as the level of security needed, the number of signatories required, the applicability of the borrower and so on. My noble friend has outlined the consequences of enacting this clause in the Business and Planning Bill and, in supporting her, I wish in particular to emphasise the need for Amendment 47.

At Second Reading, I spoke of the problems that many small and medium-sized enterprises are having in securing bounce-back loans with major lenders where hurdles which are not part of the bounce-back scheme are being placed in the way of companies seeking a loan. These loans may not save every company from going out of businesses, but they are certainly going to be a lifeline for some, and let us hope many.

Add to this the difficulties which challenger banks have in being able to find the cash to provide bounce-back loans, in part caused by the reluctance of high street banks to funnel funds through them at the Bank of England’s near 0.1% interest rate, and companies—particularly small and medium-sized enterprises seeking these loans—are facing increased difficulty. The Bank of England’s most recent snapshot of financial conditions in the UK raised particular concerns about the availability of non-bank finance, partly due to tight funding conditions for providers, so with high street banks giving priority to their own customers and the availability of funding making it difficult for challengers to lend, we have factors which make protection of the borrower all the more important. We have to remember that many small and medium-sized enterprises are surviving on a thread.

21:30
The Government have reworded the eligibility requirement for these loans to simply that businesses must have
“a borrowing proposal which the lender would consider viable, were it not for the current pandemic”.
That definition still gives significant power to the lender to impose conditions, with the judgment of viability open to a lender’s interpretation, particularly where they are through a bank holding other credit to that company. My noble friend’s amendment would retain affordability as the reason for setting aside the Consumer Credit Act protections, as it would for the specifics of the Bounce Back Loan Scheme. The amendment in all other circumstance would retain borrower protection against overzealous interpretation and conditions.
The Government must do all they can to remove barriers to the very existence of our companies, particularly SMEs, so that we can retain the jobs that they provide. Their ambition, which I support, is for a loan facility that is low-cost and simple. Without these amendments, the scheme would lose its simplicity, since lenders would be free to weave in extra hurdles, making the scheme less secure for the borrower and thereby less well-suited to the job. I urge the Government to stick to their ambition and retain the protection in law that other forms of lending now have.
Baroness Garden of Frognal Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees
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The noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, is not with us, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin.

Baroness Uddin Portrait Baroness Uddin [V]
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My Lords, I support Amendment 48 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara. I have just a few brief points. I shall speak specifically about data collection and the reporting requirement for the Bounce Back Loan Schemes. Despite the pandemic, we cannot overlook the need for transparency, open government and a robust process of reporting to Parliament. Current data relating to the total number of applications and the number of loans granted does not make allowances for how well the scheme is working to help businesses through the crisis, including SMEs, as the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, referred to. There is inadequate data on the number of businesses that could not access loan schemes and why they were refused. This should be addressed in the reporting mechanism.

The curry industry, which I referred to earlier, has reported that its members are experiencing a great deal of difficulty in accessing this financial support. I am deeply concerned about eradicating any inequity that they might be experiencing. Therefore, I would like more detailed reporting to include the number of successful applications from SMEs led by BAME communities, particularly in the curry industry, and, more specifically for the curry industry itself, the actual number of applications that have been successful and those that have been rejected.

Baroness Kramer Portrait Baroness Kramer [V]
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My Lords, I support Amendments 46, 47 and 48 and regard all three as exceedingly important. I will start by picking up on an issue described by my noble friend Lord German. We know now that the major banks, which have been able to participate in the bounce-back scheme because they have been provided with cheap funding from the Bank of England under its term funding scheme, have failed in what I was told was an obligation to also pass that cheap money through to the fintech industry and other alternate lenders, so that a broad and diverse coterie of lending institutions would be involved in bounce-back schemes and a mechanism to ensure that qualifying small companies would be able to find a source, even if it was not from one of the major banks. We now know that that funding process has not taken place and that relatively few bounce-back loans are being provided by alternate lenders because they cannot find cheap enough funding, since they have no direct access to the Bank of England scheme.

The reason I mention this is that it describes to us the culture of major banks today. Many of us had hoped that after the 2008 crisis we would see a dramatic change in culture among the major high street banks. We have certainly seen some changes, and some are better than others, but we are still dealing with a group of institutions that, frankly, if given a loophole will use it. Amendments 46 and 47 are designed to close off two major sets of loopholes to make sure that proper consumer protection continues to be provided to SMEs that use the bounce-back schemes and to make sure that these do not become mechanisms that enable them to be taken advantage of in ways that they never anticipated. Therefore, Amendments 46 and 47 are vital to limit any potential for abuse.

Amendment 48 is important because it will help us track exactly what is happening under the Bounce Back Loan Scheme arrangements. We have all heard anecdotally that the big banks are cherry picking those to whom they make bounce-back loans. Some of them choose only existing customers because they do not want to overexpand their balance sheets; others pick from within those customers. As I understand it, the whole spirit of the bounce-back scheme is anathema to cherry picking, but it is taking place.

Amendment 48, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, would very rapidly make clear how many people are applying and who is rejected, and it would give us the ability to try to track exactly what is happening under this scheme. I know that something like £30 billion has already been lent through bounce-back loans but, frankly, that is well below the level that the Government expected. Those loans are a lifeline for many companies and we really cannot allow this scheme to be abused. If we are not careful, by the time we intervene, many businesses will already have closed their doors.

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Portrait Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, I have added my name to Amendments 46 and 47, moved and spoken to respectively by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted, and I support the points that she has made. I also welcome the expert contributions from the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, the noble Lord, Lord German, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer.

The Consumer Credit Act 1974 has long been criticised because of its extensive, complex information disclosure requirements. These are a problem in their own right but they can make it problematic for lenders to be flexible in cases where they might, for example, wish to offer forbearance to consumers experiencing difficulties in making repayments or to those suffering from unmanageable personal debts, as many do. Clearly, if small businesses are being affected by Covid-19 issues, it makes sense to ensure that their access to bounce-back loans is not hampered by requests for unnecessary evidence and detail or by extensive time delays in processing such data.

However, as the Explanatory Notes make clear, SI 2020/480 changed the rules for small loans to individuals and small partnerships so that they are no longer regulated credit agreements. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, pointed out, the SI does not affect Sections 140A to 140C of the Consumer Credit Act 1974—the so-called unfair relationship provisions. The problem identified by the noble Baroness seems to be important. In a laudable attempt to simplify the processes, the Government might, perhaps inadvertently, have removed the statutory underpinning of Sections 140A to 140C, which, for example, through the courts protect borrowers from any subsequent attempts by lenders to act unfairly. That can often be the case, as we have heard this evening.

I believe that this issue might need to be reviewed separately once we are through the pandemic. Perhaps when she comes to respond, the Minister will agree that it needs further work. I hope that she will also be able to reassure us that our concerns are unfounded. I have my doubts but am willing to be convinced. The change in law needs to be securely attached only to bounce-back loans and the Covid-19 pandemic. We also need to know that the application of this disregard is proportionate and appropriate to lenders.

Turning to Amendment 48 in my name, I am grateful for the support of my noble friend Lady Uddin and the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer. I hope that the Minister recognises that the amendment covers ground raised in the powerful comments made at Second Reading by the noble Earl, Lord Shrewsbury, who shared his personal experience of the wide variability of responsiveness by the individual banks and lending institutions authorised by the British Business Bank to issue bounce-back loans.

My amendment calls for regular reports. I appreciate that there are confidentiality issues here, but this is also about transparency. If a private company such as MoneySavingExpert can do a survey which reveals that a substantial number of bounce-back applicants suffer delays, rejections and unrelated credit checks, surely the Government can do better. It is true that the MSE report is based on a sample, albeit a large one, but it shows that consumers have had variable responses from the major banks, and some of the smaller challenger banks had very high rejection rates. The transparency which the amendment looks for may improve that situation. I hope that the Minister can offer some movement on this issue, which would help with the task of getting bounce-back loans out to those who can use them. She said in her response to an earlier group of amendments that the Government were constantly reviewing and improving the Bounce Back Loan Scheme. I hope that she recognises that to do that without the sort of information that my amendment proposes might be otiose.

Baroness Penn Portrait Baroness Penn
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I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, my noble friend Lady Altmann and the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord German, for tabling these amendments.

On Amendments 46 and 47, the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, made important points around the ongoing treatment of borrowers by lenders under the bounce-back loan scheme. My noble friend Lady Altmann and others referred to memories of previous unscrupulous practices by lenders. It is important to acknowledge the significant changes that the industry has been subject to over the past decade. All the major lenders have now signed up to the Lending Standards Board’s standards of lending practice, ensuring that banks treat their customers fairly and responsibly. The Financial Conduct Authority can now take enforcement action against individuals through the senior managers and certification regime and the new conduct rules, which apply to all employees of those firms and not just to senior managers.

I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, and all noble Lords who have spoken on the amendment that, while the Bill removes bounce-back loans from the Consumer Credit Act provisions, it does not remove protections from borrowers under the scheme. Under the terms of the guarantee agreement entered into by lenders with the British Business Bank that backs the bounce-back loans, lenders must provide clear information to borrowers before the credit agreement is entered into and during the lifetime of the loan. Lenders must make it clear to borrowers that the loans are not subject to the usual protections under the Consumer Credit Act. However, under the agreement entered into by lenders with the British Business Bank for the guarantee, there are other protections.

Where a borrower encounters financial difficulty, lenders must provide information on assistance available, including sources of free, independent advice. Where a borrower misses payments under the scheme, the lender will give them a reasonable period to remedy any breach of the agreement and will not treat that breach as a default if it is remedied within that period. Finally, lenders must not require borrowers to pay any lender-levied fees of any description, including on default, or any default interest. If a borrower defaults on the loan, the guarantee agreement prevents their primary residence and primary vehicle forming part of the debt recovery. Should a lender not comply with these terms, they risk not being able to call on the guarantee. This provides a strong incentive for lenders to treat borrowers fairly.

Furthermore, the Government have retained Financial Conduct Authority oversight for debt collection, meaning that lenders must comply with the Financial Conduct Authority rules on arrears, default and recovery. Recovery procedures must also comply with the Lending Standards Board’s standards of lending practice. As the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, mentioned, the Government are working with accredited lenders under the scheme to ensure that they understand the requirements on collections and recoveries for the loans. I will write to her on whether the result of those discussions will be published.

Finally, the jurisdiction of the Financial Ombudsman Service has been maintained for bounce-back loans, meaning that eligible borrowers are able to access this convenient and effective means of resolving disputes with their lender without having to go to court.

21:45
I also want to explain why the provisions in Clause 12 of the Bill are so important. The Government’s commitment to disapply the “unfair relationships” provision in the Consumer Credit Act 1974 for bounce-back loans was essential for giving lenders the confidence that they needed to lend at scale and pace. By 5 July over 1 million loans had been made under the scheme, with a total value of £30 billion. If the amendment were accepted, there is a risk that lenders would cease lending under the scheme, depriving small businesses of the finance they need to weather this crisis.
The noble Lord, Lord German, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, raised the issue of challenger banks’ access to funding and alternative lenders being able to issue bounce-back loans. I reassure them that there are now 24 accredited lenders for the Bounce Back Loan Scheme, including challenger banks. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord German, in particular, that, while the Government do not provide funding to lenders that are participating in the government loan schemes and lenders must source their own funding, the Government have made changes to allow the transfer and assignment of government guarantees for bounce-back loans and CBILS and CLBILS loans, which is something that non-bank lenders have asked for to support their ability to access funding and then issue these loans. I hope that has given the noble Baroness and the noble Lord the reassurance that borrowers will be protected under the scheme and that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Amendment 48 concerns the publication of data around the Bounce Back Loan Scheme. The Government have been publishing relevant data on the Covid business lending schemes on a weekly basis since 12 May. This includes data on the number of applications received, the number and value of facilities approved to date for the Bounce Back Loan Scheme, the Coronavirus Business Interruption Loan Scheme and the Coronavirus Large Business Interruption Loan Scheme. The figure for the total number of applications received includes approved applications, applications that are still to be processed, applications that have been declined or turned out not to be eligible, and withdrawn applications where the borrower decides not to proceed.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, raised the issue of delays due to unnecessary detail being requested, while the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, raised the issue of cherry-picking among existing customers and said that further transparency on this data might help us to address these issues. It is the case that it will be faster for many lenders to issue loans to existing customers first, and they may be processing those, but that does not mean that, where a customer is not an existing customer of the lender or bank, they cannot access the loans. Furthermore, as I said, we have 24 accredited lenders. One reasons why it may be faster to issue loans to existing customers is that for new customers banks have to go through other checks that have not been withdrawn through this process, including know-your-customer checks and other anti-money laundering regulations.
In publishing the data on bounce-back loans, we aim to support the information needs of society, parliamentarians and stakeholders. I have listened very carefully to the arguments made today by noble Lords, and the Government are considering what further data may be made available in future while balancing the sensitive commercial nature of this information for lenders. Releasing scheme-wide lender-by-lender data would involve the publication of sensitive commercial information that has been shared in confidence with Her Majesty’s Treasury. This could reveal information such as the market share of lenders and is not suitable for the public domain.
For the reasons that I have set out, I am not able to accept the amendment. I hope that the noble Lord will therefore choose not to move it when it is called.
Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted Portrait Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted [V]
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My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. In the interests of time I will not go through everything, but the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, reminded us of the whole GRG saga and that the Consumer Credit Act and provisions for the courts are the ultimate insurance against bad behaviour from banks, which has been witnessed.

My noble friend Lord German reminded us that Section 140A, 140B and 140C, and indeed the Consumer Credit Act in general, are intended to cover loopholes and lacunae and to stop banks being able to get away with inappropriate things, and in particular to stop the weaving in of other conditions.

My noble friend Lady Kramer reminded us about the culture of banks today, and the way they are failing to pass on funds to alternate lenders. So, despite the Minister’s words about how banks have reformed, there remains a question mark over their culture because of that current behaviour in the context of coronavirus and the bounce-back loans. They appear to be putting themselves first. As my noble friend Lady Kramer said, give them a loophole and it will be used. I fear that that is too true. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, also indicated his concern about removing the statutory underpinning and questioned whether it was proportionate.

One or two things that the Minister said were reassuring: that the lender cannot apply any fees, which may mean that gouging cannot happen; and regarding assistance and free advice. However, looking at the detail, some other things become more worrying. It tends to be said that there are no personal guarantees, but it seems that that is not actually true: it covers only the primary residence and primary vehicle. There could be other things that would appear not to come under the guarantee. The Government would seem to have made a commitment to disapply the Consumer Credit Act as part of the terms of bounce-back loans. This means that they have promised to disapply primary legislation before any legislation has been passed to allow that. That is an extraordinarily worrying precedent, no matter that we are in an emergency situation. The Government have already disapplied primary legislation and are effectively saying: “We cannot go back on what we have promised”. As a matter of principle, I think that that is something to which I quite profoundly object.

I will have a look at other things that the Minister said. I acknowledge that there are some things in there that show how the Government have tried to fill in for the action that they have taken. So maybe businesses are not quite so naked as I suggested, but it is still a very worrying situation. I will withdraw my amendment now, but I may wish to return to this matter on Report.

Amendment 46 withdrawn.
Amendment 47 not moved.
Clause 12 agreed.
Amendment 48 not moved.
Clause 13: Certificates of temporary exemption for public service and goods vehicles
Debate on whether Clause 13 should stand part of the Bill.
Baroness Garden of Frognal Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees
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We now come to the group beginning with the Question that Clause 13 stand part. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this, or anything else in this group, to a Division should make that clear in the debate.

Lord Tunnicliffe Portrait Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, I gave notice to oppose Clauses 13 and 14 because I did not understand them and felt that their meaning needed clarifying. This is an opportunity for the Minister to explain how they work in simple language. I thank the Minister and her team for the time they have taken explaining the clauses to me. Providing the Minister’s explanations are in line with our discussions, and she reads them into the record for the enlightenment of industry practitioners, I am optimistic that I will not need to take my concerns any further.

Baroness Garden of Frognal Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees
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I call the noble Earl, Lord Attlee. We cannot hear the noble Earl. We will move on to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and come back to the noble Earl later.

Baroness Kramer Portrait Baroness Kramer [V]
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My Lords, I will be exceedingly brief. I only wanted to address Clause 14(2)(b), which is basically about HGV licence applications. The Government have, in effect, temporarily waived the requirement for medical certificates, which I find entirely appropriate in light of the pandemic and the difficulty of requiring the medical profession—distracting them, if you like—to carry out the various tests and fill out the various forms that would provide those certificates.

My question is this: having made the decision that it is possible to grant HGV licences on this basis, are the Government willing to agree to do the same for other applicants for drivers licences? I am particularly concerned about others who, like me, are about to turn 70. We, of course, have to obtain new licences as we reach 70. I have been able to do it very easily online because I have the right sort of picture-based identity and passport, and because I did not require a medical certificate.

However, I have received a number of letters from various people who have not been in that position and are now finding that their licences are expiring at a time when they really do need to be able to use their cars. Being over 70, they are quite anxious about going on public transport; I think most people would think that that was entirely appropriate. Having made a decision that it is going to temporarily waive that medical requirement for HGV drivers, will the Government now consider doing it particularly for the over-70s?

Baroness Garden of Frognal Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees
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Have we got the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, back?

Earl Attlee Portrait Earl Attlee (Con) [V]
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Yes, I am here, my Lords.

I have Amendment 49 in this group and it may be convenient to speak to it now. Before doing so, I should declare an interest in that I operate heavy goods vehicles in a private capacity and present them for testing. The Committee will be pleased to hear that the last one I prepared passed first time, despite being of some age.

In a modern society we utilise, or go near, a wide range of equipment, facilities and infrastructure that, if not properly maintained, could be extremely hazardous. Think about electrical systems, trains, lifts, aircraft, the underground system—once run by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe—pressure vessels, steam boilers and the like. Disasters are very rare because the systems are subject both to regular and statutory inspections performed by what is termed a “competent person”—an individual who has the necessary experience, training and independence from the operator and the owner of the equipment, so that he or she can inspect the system or equipment without fear or favour. The competent person is not normally employed by the state but by private industry or commerce.

The Committee will be painfully aware that motor vehicles are a serious safety hazard if not properly maintained. Private motor cars are annually inspected by an MOT garage and the inspector is authorised by the Secretary of State but employed by the garage or testing station. There is no difficulty in securing a test date because the motor trade ensures there are a sufficient number of testing stations and authorised testers.

The situation with heavy goods vehicle testing is very different. What are termed authorised testing facilities—ATFs—are provided and funded by industry but authorised by the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency—the DVSA. The vehicle inspectors are employees of, and provided by, the DVSA. Levels of remuneration are screwed down by the Treasury to such an extent that the DVSA is always underresourced, with only just enough inspectors to meet demand—at best. Even in normal times, one would expect to wait six weeks for a new test date. This is not a short-term Covid problem.

22:00
ATF centres are a significant investment on the part of the operator and have high operating costs. Operators have therefore been exceptionally frustrated by the DVSA’s management of the testing regime, which seldom has the resources to meet testing demand when it is needed. FOI requests revealed that, in 2017, a lack of DVSA testing availability resulted in a shortage of 25,000 testing hours, rising to just under 60,000 hours in 2018, up to 30 September that year.
The Covid-19 outbreak has demonstrated that the current testing model is out of date and out of pace with the modern logistics sector, which is a 24-hour industry. Between late March and early July, HGV testing was suspended almost entirely, meaning that many HGVs on British roads are operating without having taken their annual safety test. The industry is now faced with a significant backlog which, under the current regime, is likely to take between nine and 12 months to clear. My guess is that there must be at least 100,000 heavy goods vehicles running with extended MoTs. This is not as much of a safety risk as the Committee might fear because, in addition to the annual statutory MoT test, operators are obliged to subject their vehicle to a six-weekly safety inspection, but the period may be longer or shorter, depending on the nature of the work. A safety inspection is very similar to an MoT, except without the necessary bureaucratic checks. In fact, exactly the same AFT facilities may be used but without using a DVSA inspector.
My amendment proposes that industry employs the vehicle inspector, rather than the Secretary of State and the DVSA. This is termed delegated testing, and this arrangement would be very similar to how the potentially extremely hazardous heavy equipment that I have already referred to is inspected to meet statutory requirements. In terms of safety inspections, a goods vehicle is a relatively simple system compared to an aircraft or railway system, so can the Minister explain what is special about a goods vehicle and why we need a completely different model with a state-employed inspector?
The Freight Transport Association, while supporting the first part of my amendment, cannot support the second, and it is correct. However, there is no question of an individual inspector having a sheaf of test certificates in his back pocket. The second part of my amendment is designed to protect the individual inspector. The amendment was also intended to cover PSV testing, but does not. Given more time, I would have used the drafting of Section 45 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 to provide the effect desired. This amendment is also supported by the Road Haulage Association, the National Franchised Dealers Association, the SMMT and the ATF Operators Association.
It may be that the traffic commissioners are briefing the Minister against delegated testing. I urge my noble friend to take this with a pinch of salt. At least one of them appears to be a career DfT civil servant, and I do not mean that pejoratively. The argument about DVSA inspectors being independent is not a good one. First, my noble friend should look at the whole relationship between the DVSA—comprising inspectors, witnesses and prosecutors—on the one hand, and the traffic commissioners, the tribunal, on the other. They often all live in the same office block. Surely, an independent ATF of the operator’s choice, but supervised by the DVSA, is much more independent and reliable. If this concept is not good enough, how come the concept of a competent person, already referred to, is sound?
I am not suggesting that individual DVSA inspectors do not do a good job; I have always had confidence in them. In any case, the DVSA’s excellent goods vehicle testers manual is very clear and lays down objective test standards. Importantly, inspectors will be better remunerated under my proposal. One operator in south Wales told me that he would not be able to find any inspectors or technicians to work for him at the rate the DVSA pays.
Even if my proposal was accepted by the Government, the DVSA would still directly employ vehicle examiners. These would be needed to undertake well-targeted spot checks on the road. They would exercise intrusive, policing-style powers, including prohibiting a dangerous vehicle moving. This is a good and valid use of a state employee; I do not support moving away from this. Given the shortage of DVSA inspectors, it is obvious that the DVSA will prioritise inspectors for use at ATFs over spot checks on the road. If not, it will face financial penalties. This must surely mean that the DVSA is wasting limited resources testing compliant vehicles at ATFs rather than pursuing the few remaining rogue operators. Can the Minister confirm that, if the DVSA had more inspectors available, more roadside spot checks would be undertaken?
When I first arrived in your Lordships’ House 28 years ago—and given my direct experience of the road transport industry—I would have opposed my Amendment 49, but that industry has changed out of all recognition. There simply are not horrible old wrecks of trucks on the road now. We should use state employees to exercise intrusive roadside powers and leave routine technical inspections to industry, where they belong.
Baroness Pinnock Portrait Baroness Pinnock [V]
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My noble friend Lady Randerson is unable to speak on this group as she has caring commitments that she is unable to change. She has been in contact with the Freight Transport Association, which provided her with an extensive briefing. I know that she has also spoken with the noble Baroness, Lady Vere.

My noble friend asked me to highlight one of the issues in the Freight Transport Association’s briefing: certificates of temporary exemption. These may now result in the required test falling within the busiest period for many operators. The FTA is confident that this is not what the Government are seeking to achieve. It has therefore asked for the certificates of temporary exemption to be issued for a full 12 months so that HGV licences are not subject to change at a time when the vehicle needs to be on the road to catch up with transport issues that have fallen by the wayside due to the coronavirus changes.

With that rather inept briefing—I am sure that my noble friend would have done so much better—I hope that the Minister will be able to give some answers to the questions that have been asked.

Baroness Vere of Norbiton Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)
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My Lords, this group concerns Clauses 13 and 14, which seek to manage road safety risks as we move into recovery from the pandemic. I am very grateful for the discussions that I have had with the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, who is unable to be in her place. I will put on record further details to address the concerns that have been raised.

First, noble Lords will be aware that draft regulations referred to in Clause 13 are now available, but the essence of this clause is as follows: at this time, the Driver & Vehicle Standards Agency can issue certificates of temporary exemption from roadworthiness testing on a blanket basis for vehicles during exceptional circumstances. It has issued such exemptions to all heavy vehicles that are due a test in the period from March to August 2020. Clause 13 allows the DVSA to exempt vehicles from testing based on road safety risk factors rather than on a blanket basis. These powers are not intended to manage business as usual and will not be used to manage normal test demand unconnected to exceptional circumstances.

When determining whether a CTE should be issued for a particular vehicle, the new regulations will allow the following relevant safety factors to be considered: the age of the vehicle and its technical characteristics; the findings of any examination or inspection of a vehicle; enforcement action against the vehicle’s operator or against the driver of a vehicle used under that operator’s licence; the operator’s membership of the DVSA’s earned recognition scheme; and any action, direction or order in relation to an operator’s licence, held by the operator, taken or made by a traffic commissioner within the previous five years under specific relevant provisions.

Where exceptional circumstances necessitate, the new power will be used to prioritise older vehicles for testing—most likely those over two years old—and take into consideration membership of the DVSA-run earned recognition scheme and operator compliance risk scores calculated by the DVSA, based on historic evidence of compliance. The regulations will permit the issue of CTEs during, prior to, or subsequent to disruption attributable in whole or in part to an exceptional event which falls within the existing definition. This is in recognition of the fact that disruption to test availability may extend beyond the boundaries of an event. An exceptional event such as accident, fire or epidemic is included in this definition. The regulations will also set out the duration for which these CTEs can be issued. Given that these revisions reduce the road safety risk inherent in the existing powers and are to be used only infrequently and in exceptional circumstances, we do not propose to add a sunset clause.

I turn now to Amendment 49, tabled by my noble friend Lord Attlee, which seeks to permit the Secretary of State to qualify any individual to undertake road-worthiness tests of heavy goods vehicles. At present, heavy vehicle testing is undertaken by the DVSA, typically with staff working from a third-party site. This amendment would open the door to the private sector undertaking such testing; this is often referred to as delegated testing. I understand my noble friend’s views on this point and recognise his expertise in the area, as so ably demonstrated in his contribution. I express my gratitude to him for his constructive approach, particularly in discussions with departmental officials.

However, allowing delegated testing of heavy goods vehicles would represent a fundamental change in our long-standing approach. This amendment would require us to conduct that change during a time of immense pressure on the testing system, on stakeholders and on the DVSA. Establishing a new system of testing without carrying out careful consideration and extensive consultation would be unwise and would create risks to all road users. However, I am extremely willing to continue constructive discussions with the noble Earl, and indeed with industry, particularly as to how we can improve the current system. For these reasons, I hope that my noble friend will feel able to support the Government’s approach.

I turn finally to Clause 14. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, for giving me an opportunity to provide further details. Lorry and bus drivers must apply to renew their driving licence every five years and annually from the age of 65. From the age of 45, a medical report signed by a doctor must be provided with the renewal application. Under an existing power in secondary legislation, the Secretary of State for Transport can waive the requirement for a medical report. However, the Secretary of State for Transport currently cannot mitigate the associated risk by issuing shorter licences.

As a result of the pandemic, NHS GPs have not been available to meet the demand for medical reports. To help keep drivers on the road, we announced a temporary scheme to waive the medical report requirement and issue one-year licences back in April 2020. The provision in this Bill is retrospective. It limits to one year the duration of licences already issued under that scheme without a medical report, as well as those that will be issued in the future. Even though the medical report will not be required at renewal, the driver must still fill out the standard DVLA medical questionnaire, and confirm whether or not they suffer from one of the medical conditions relevant to fitness to drive. If a medical condition is declared, the DVLA will investigate the condition, and decide whether it is appropriate to issue a licence. The provision for one-year licences to be issued where there is no medical report will last for the duration of the Bill. However, this scheme does not have to be used. The DVLA is keeping the scheme under review, and in consultation with NHS authorities will reinstate the requirement for a medical report, and return to issuing five-year licences, as soon as medical resources are available to meet demand.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, for her questions on the issuance of other licences and their renewal, and I will write to her. On the basis of these explanations and clarifications, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, will feel able to withdraw his intention to oppose the Motion that the clause stand part.

22:15
Lord Tunnicliffe Portrait Lord Tunnicliffe [V]
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My Lords, perhaps I could say a few words about the Freight Transport Association’s concerns. Essentially, if exceptions or exemptions are permitted for six months rather than 12 months, it will disrupt the regime of testing and maintenance for some of the larger and better-maintained fleets. The limitation of six months is actually in the draft regulations, which are being consulted upon with the industry at this moment. I hope that the Minister will give careful attention to the representations it makes. There is nothing in primary legislation to stop appropriate easement if the department were to take that view.

I am content with the Minister’s explanations for Clauses 13 and 14, and no longer wish to oppose the Motion that Clause 13 stand part of the Bill.

Clause 13 agreed.
Amendment 49 not moved.
Clauses 14 and 15 agreed.
Lord Russell of Liverpool Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)
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We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 50. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this or any other amendment in this group to a Division should make that clear in the debate.

Amendment 50

Moved by
50: After Clause 15, insert the following new Clause—
“Amendment of the Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018
(1) The Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018 (S.I. 2018/634) are amended as follows.(2) In regulation 2(3) leave out “at least one other at least two different types of” and insert “the carriage of passengers with”(3) In regulation 2(5) leave out “at least one other at least two different types of” and insert “the carriage of passengers with”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment seeks to amend the Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018 make transport a mandatory component of package travel. This would allow small local businesses to make a combined offer without incurring the responsibilities of a package holiday operator.
Baroness Doocey Portrait Baroness Doocey [V]
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My Lords, in moving Amendment 50, I will speak also to Amendments 74 and 75 in my name.

Amendment 50 seeks to modify the regulations introduced in 2018 around package travel, in order to support the recovery of small domestic tourism businesses and destinations. The intention of these regulation was to provide additional protection to those taking package holidays abroad, so that they do not lose their money if the tour operator goes bust, and so they can be repatriated to the UK. However, a sort of reverse loophole has emerged, where small domestic businesses working together to produce a value-added offer are caught up in the regulations and deemed to be tour operators.

The consequence is that if a B&B, for example, offers a deal to customers where meals at a local pub or a round of golf at a local course are included, that B&B finds itself legally responsible if the customer has an accident while visiting the other business. No insurance company will give a B&B insurance to cover that. This prevents the sort of constructive enterprise between small local businesses that is needed if the domestic tourism industry is to recover from coronavirus. The industry estimates that remedying this anomaly would boost domestic tourism by about £2.2 billion.

Unfortunately, there is a drafting error in my amendment, for which I apologise. It inadvertently seeks to leave out the words “at least one other”, which do not actually appear in the existing regulations. However, the important part of the amendment is about the carriage of passengers, and it is to those words particularly that I am speaking this evening.

The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that package travel should include the carriage of passengers—in other words, actual travel. That means that if you are offering a coach holiday with hotel accommodation included, that would of course count as a package because you are taking the customer on holiday and must be responsible for them. However, if a small business offering accommodation co-operates with another small business that is offering food, it is not taking someone on holiday. It is providing the customer with a value-added product while they are on holiday. With no actual travel involved in the transaction, under the terms of the amendment, it would not count as a package. This small measure of deregulation could save 47,000 jobs in the sector.

I know that the Government believe that the current regulations should not be prohibitive for small businesses because there is a rule of thumb which says that any tourism service providing accommodation must make up at least 25% of the total for the regulations to apply. This is unsatisfactory for two reasons. First, it is only a rule of thumb, so businesses do not have certainty about their obligations. Secondly, a small B&B could offer weekend accommodation for, say, £70 a night, and the food on offer at a local restaurant or pub might well have a value of £70 or more. So as things stand, co-operating on meals and accommodation for two people can easily trespass into regulated territory.

In considering this amendment, it is also important to note that the benefits it would provide come at no cost to the consumer as there is no erosion of consumer protection by removing value-added products as I have described from the package travel regulations. All that would happen is that two businesses would become separately liable for their component of the product. The principle that I have articulated, and what is intended in the amendment—making packaging hinge on whether an actual travel component is sold—is a better and clearer position which I hope the Government will consider carefully between now and Report.

Amendment 74 has been inspired by and closely follows the Government’s own proposal to expedite planning applications by varying planning conditions on construction hours. The amendment would speed up applications to lift planning conditions where they restrict campsites and caravan sites from being used for holidays in the winter months. After months when so many sites have been unable to operate, this would enable many of them to extend the holiday season, subject to a final but expedited say on the part of the local authority.

The present situation is quite unsatisfactory in that the Government say that local planning authorities can choose not to enforce their local regulations. This puts businesses in a very invidious position. My amendment would clarify the position because it would mean that in straightforward cases, an extension to this year’s season could be agreed quickly without the need to require an applicant to produce numerous documents. Crucially, however, local authorities would retain control over more complex cases. Where a council has concerns about an application to extend, it would have 14 days either to refuse or to agree modifications with the applicant. This seems proportionate and fair, and again it would make the regulations around domestic tourism much more equal to the task of helping businesses out of the Covid crisis.

Amendment 75 would give property owners and local authorities the same flexibility to remove planning conditions that prevent the use of their holiday accommodation for lets over the winter months, but it would give local authorities control. It would allow properties that are presently used for short-term lets over the summer to be let on a longer-term basis in the winter. The most common planning restriction at the moment is the 28-day maximum stay that is applied to permissions. Many of the properties affected are converted farm buildings where the farmer has sought to diversify his or her business. Industry figures suggest that up to 25,000 properties are limited in this way. Removing the 28-day limit would allow these businesses to operate longer-term winter lets, typically to temporary or seasonal workers, or to students.

For these businesses, gaining valuable winter income would go some way to levelling the playing field with their competitors in the sharing economy, such as Airbnb, while helping to make up for so much lost income this year. But without this support, many holiday cottages will be obliged to close only a few months after their reopening on 4 July. It is surely right to expedite these applications now to extend the season and, in doing so, to help good but struggling businesses to survive.

The tourism industry generates £155 billion per annum for the UK economy, but this contribution is in peril because 92% of these businesses say that their revenue has at least halved during the coronavirus crisis. I hope that the Government will give a helping hand by modernising the regulations on packages and allowing domestic businesses to extend their usual season into the winter months. Without these changes, many businesses simply will not survive and thousands of jobs will be lost. I beg to move Amendment 50.

Lord Redesdale Portrait Lord Redesdale (LD)
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My Lords, I refer to my interests in the register and will speak to Amendment 74 because I have just been appointed as an officer of the new all-party group on holiday parks and camping sites. My noble friend Lady Doocey has covered many of the points that I was going to raise and at this hour, of course, brevity is much to be commended so I will raise only one point. It is to hope that the Government could agree to write a letter to local authorities, setting out the benefits of relaxing planning laws. This is something that many local authorities have undertaken, including East Lindsey District Council in Lincolnshire. Its local development order for the coastal zones authorises 12 months’ operation for the next two years.

To be brief, the problem that many campsites across the country face is that while they are starting to reopen, at the moment there is a degree of caution among those undertaking camping. So, they are running at about 40% of the capacity they were expecting; the season will therefore be quite short for them. Extending the season would make a great deal of difference. It would also show some clarity, because the Scottish Government have already advised their local authorities that a

“temporary relaxation of planning controls will help businesses to re-start.”

They cited enabling

“seasonal businesses such as holiday parks to continue to operate beyond any conditioned limits to their seasons”

on 29 May, under the heading “Changing business practices during physical distancing restrictions”. The Welsh Assembly is also looking to write a letter. I hope that the Minister can give us an assurance that the Government will raise this issue with local authorities as being beneficial to their local economies.

House resumed.

Supply and Appropriation (Main Estimates) Bill

1st reading & 1st reading (Hansard) & 1st reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Supply and Appropriation (Main Estimates) Act 2020 View all Supply and Appropriation (Main Estimates) Act 2020 Debates Read Hansard Text
First Reading
The Bill was brought from the Commons, endorsed as a money Bill and read a first time.

Stamp Duty Land Tax (Temporary Relief) Bill

1st reading & 1st reading (Hansard) & 1st reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 13th July 2020

(3 years, 8 months ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Stamp Duty Land Tax (Temporary Relief) Act 2020 View all Stamp Duty Land Tax (Temporary Relief) Act 2020 Debates Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Committee of the whole House Amendments as at 13 July 2020 - (13 Jul 2020)
First Reading
The Bill was brought from the Commons, endorsed as a money Bill, read a first time and ordered to be printed.
House adjourned at 10.28 pm.