Business and Planning Bill

Lord Naseby Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 13th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I very much support the Bill and admire Her Majesty’s Government for pushing it forward. I say particular thanks to my noble friend Lord Howe, who wrote me a letter about new towns.

I will speak in favour of Amendment 2. I say to my noble friend that for five years of my life I lived opposite a pub, and if you live opposite, adjacent to or close to a pub you expect noise on Fridays and Saturdays, so there is nothing new about that in relation to the Bill. That point should be considered.

I say to my dear noble friends, Lord Holmes and Lord Blencathra, who is my roommate, well done because they have made people think. But, frankly, the average publican will think. He or she is aware of the disabled and of wheelchairs. Maybe they need reminding, and Amendment 2 does that, but for heaven’s sake, this is only a temporary Bill. The only point I would make to my noble friend the Minister is, why do we not review this after six months? After all, the real point of the Bill is the next six months; particularly the summer and autumn. It would be more sensible to review it towards the end of this year, around December, in readiness for next year. The need is self-evident. I support the amendment and wish my Front Bench all possible success with the Bill.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I support pavement licences not only for the purposes of the Bill but because, as I said at Second Reading, they have the potential to help knit together communities. But there must—“must” is the operative word—be access for all pavement users. Otherwise, our pavements are not a shared space in the wider sense of the term.

Anyone who knows Berlin and smaller towns in various countries on the continent will see how well this can work. As a pedestrian in Berlin, I do not recall ever having to walk around tables and chairs, which is an important point. The scheme is not working if you cannot walk down the centre of the payment, and where the pavement is wide enough, there is no reason why café furniture cannot be split into two sections so that it can be right up against the road or fence between for safety.

I am sure that there is a whole art to this, but things such as large wooden tubs with flowers and large umbrellas marking the corners of the café territory can give the area a structure that is both open and rigid, so that pedestrians know precisely where they can walk on a predictable, routine basis. That is extremely important, particularly in the context of the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Low. You should be able to walk down a pavement and know precisely where you will be walking on different days.

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[Lord Hayward (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I first thank the noble Earl for his letter, which he sent in response to a number of the comments I made on Second Reading. I greatly appreciate the consideration that both he and the officials have given to the variety of points I made at the time.

I pick up on the response the Minister gave on one particular matter in the last group of amendments. I considered putting in to speak on both these groups but decided to concentrate on just one. On the question of marking out, possibly by some form of barrier, I acknowledge that you could create a real difficulty in blocking pavements by putting in another barrier, but in this day and age when you can rope off sections, the vast majority of establishments would not take up a large area by doing so. I ask the Minister not to mandate a requirement, but to encourage all restaurants to give serious consideration to some form of identification or demarcation of an area.

On these amendments and the comments by my noble friend Lord Balfe and the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, we are talking here about restaurants and events in the summer. I support her in her observations on the comments made on the radio yesterday about Soho; it was a marked change. On an earlier group, the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, made the comment that, as far she could assess, the problems in Richmond in most cases arose not specifically from the pubs or restaurants, but from off-sales and people wandering around areas with drink they had bought in an off-licence rather than a restaurant.

On the timescales involved, I have sympathy with the issue of seven to 14 days, particularly at this time of year, and do not necessarily believe that it would be unfair on an applicant. We are dealing with the summer. It is important that we make progress because, after all is said and done, summer in Britain does not last very long. If we delay unduly, the restaurants will not get the benefit, but it is difficult for a council and residents to register concerns.

Having said that, I have a point in relation to what the noble Lord, Lord Harris, said. I have in front of me a letter from one of the central London councils. It is a parking offence and is not mine but my lodger’s. It was sent out by the council and says it starts counting from the day it was sent; I think that is standard procedure for notices. My lodger was told he had to make the payment within the set days. Although I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Harris, about some matters, what is relevant here is that at this time of year it is difficult for residents and councils to deal with matters if an application goes to one or two people who happen to be on holiday. As my noble friend Lord Lucas said, it may involve different local authorities and there may need to be cross-consultation.

Unless there is a strong case for it to be seven days, I certainly support the idea that there should be 14 days of consultation rather than seven. Having said that, as I understand it, many of the obligations imposed as a result of these amendments are already imposed on applicants for such licences and the local authorities giving consideration to them. I am willing to be corrected on that, either by another supporter of the amendments or by the Minister.

[Lord Naseby [V]]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Noakes should have been listened to. I say again that I lived opposite a pub; I knew the publican. I knew the local councillor for the ward in Islington. In my own ward, up in Highview, I knew where the pubs were. I cannot believe that in this day and age and at this point in time, the local councillors do not know which of their pubs are considering making use of this legislation. I am certain they do. Furthermore, I suspect all the local residents know exactly which pubs are likely to want to do this pavement extension business, so I say to my noble friends: we need to get on with it.

I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey. I remember the days when I was the leader of the London Borough of Islington and say that, if anything was stretched out, it was when we were discussing joint issues with Haringey—but that was a long time ago. Seven days is pretty reasonable at this point in time. I say to your Lordships: let us get on with it.

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[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, on bringing forward this amendment and I support it. If I may presume to say so, we were together as part of the health team in the coalition Government. I am very proud of the fact that we implemented the display ban on tobacco in shops and brought in the ban on vending machines, which was particularly important in restricting the access to tobacco and cigarettes for young people. I also initiated the consultation that led subsequently to standardised packaging.

Between 2011 and 2018, the proportion of adults in this country who were smoking went down, as the noble Baroness suggested. It has gone down from nearly 20% to below 15%. Most encouragingly, among 18 to 24 year-olds the reduction has been largest: from 25.8% down to 16.7%. There has been a reduction of more than one-third in the number of young people smoking—the 18 to 24 year-olds. That is one of the reasons why the impact of this issue in relation to pubs, clubs, restaurants and the like is particularly important for young people who are out and about.

I want to make three points. First, we are in the midst of a health crisis. In a health crisis, which is probably demonstrating to us that one of the underlying factors that has not helped us is the poor underlying health of many people in this country, we must do everything we can to try to improve population health in this country. We have not done enough and need to do more. We must prioritise public health and, by extension, if this amendment were taken on board this measure—modest as it may be in the overall scheme of things—would move us in the right direction.

My second point comes to the point made just now by my noble friend Lady Noakes. It is an important one. This is a temporary measure and would be specific in relation to new licences, but the essence of this Bill is that it will give an opportunity for premises which have previously been licensed for indoors to move outdoors; it gives an opportunity for licensed premises to operate on pavements and the like. In effect, what it says is, “We are extending the public space.” In my view, as we extend the public space, so we should extend the protections for the public that go with it. That means a ban on second-hand, passive smoking for those people who are enjoying that opportunity.

I shall make a third point. I am reminded of when my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham and I worked together on a little conspiracy of our own when we were in the other place: the ban on smoking in public places. I was the shadow health Secretary at the time. The nature of our conspiracy was that we secured the agreement of the whips that there would be a free vote. So I very much hope that neither my noble friend nor I will have to vote against a government whip on this matter. The Government could adopt exactly the same approach and give noble Lords in this place a free vote on the amendment. They might also do the same in the other place, and we shall see where we end up on the basis of the arguments. We implemented a ban on smoking in public places on a free vote and, in these circumstances, I think that we might well extend that ban on the same basis for this measure.

[Lord Naseby [V]]

My Lords, this is not a health Bill, as my noble friend Lady Noakes pointed out; it is a temporary measure. I am sorry to say this, but I think that this is an emotional amendment—and I speak as someone who is a non-smoker. I would remind your Lordships that tobacco is a legal product that is marketed with awareness packaging. Moreover, we need to take on board that we are talking about the nearly 7 million people in our population who still smoke, plus the 3.6 million who are vaping.

A great deal has been said about smoke curling around people who are eating and so on, but in an outdoor situation, tobacco smoke is highly diluted and dissipates very quickly in almost every atmospheric condition. It is absolutely right that smokers have a responsibility to behave properly towards the people around them, particularly when they are accompanied by children.

The proposal being put forward in this amendment to force pubs and cafés to ban smoking outside their premises—otherwise they will be refused permission to serve drinks—is wholly disproportionate. At a time when all our small businesses are on their knees, struggling to survive under the pressure of coping with Covid-19, I suggest that the last thing they need is further restrictions that will drive away desperately needed customers.

I am not saying that this measure would not be appropriate in a proper health Bill at some point, as soon as the authorities deem it to be relevant to take a particular action one way or another—but to hang this ban on to a temporary Bill that is designed to help every small business, not just those whose customers are not smokers, is entirely wrong in my view.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

Can we get the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, back?