Business and Planning Bill

Baroness Garden of Frognal Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 13th July 2020 Lords Chamber

At present it is not possible to use a digital ID as proof of age for the purchase of alcohol in the UK because there is no industry standard for digital ID, although I assure noble Lords that the Government recognise advancements in technology and the need for agreement on what constitutes an acceptable form of digital ID for age-verification purposes. We have long supported this scheme and welcome the alcohol industry’s commitment to continue to support the Proof of Age Standards Scheme. We have also commissioned its board to produce a set of standards for digital ID. However, due to the pandemic, it has now been delayed. We look forward to receiving recommendations from the board next year. Until such a standard is agreed, the current restrictions should be upheld. I hope that my noble friend will not press her amendment. I shall finish there.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

My Lords, I have received a request to speak after the Minister from the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering [V]]

My Lords, my noble friend has answered my question and I am absolutely delighted with her answer.

Amendment 1 withdrawn.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 2. I remind the Committee that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this or any other amendment in this group to a Division should make that clear in debate.

Amendment 2

Moved by

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[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow my noble friend’s enthusiasm and wise observations. I had signed up to speak on Second Reading and, due to unfortunate technical problems, was unable to do so. I wish to speak to Amendments 6 and 8.

I echo the introductory comments of the noble Lord, Lord Balfe. His concerns may be widely applicable in many areas of our country. I am deeply concerned about the impact of the fast-tracking measures that will allow alcohol to be served outside or off premises. I witnessed first-hand a large event at a venue nearby, on two consecutive weekends, and was shocked to witness large numbers of young people gathered without any social distancing—not a mask in sight—spilling on to the streets, as highlighted by the noble Lord, Lord Bourne. I welcome the points made earlier by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, about age verification. I question the age of many present at these gatherings and agree with the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, that it is not enough to rely on staff minding the entrance to ensure identity of large numbers of eagerly waiting young persons.

I suggest to the Government that the beneficial income revenue is likely to be seriously compromised by insurmountable amounts of litter, men urinating on the road and against buildings, activity going well into unsocial hours with an unacceptable level of noise and antisocial behaviour and disturbance, inevitably causing concern to nearby family residents. In fact, a group of people came over to my car as I was driving by, who were drunk and aggressive. Witnessing this was my adult son, who lives with autism. He was distinctly alarmed and anxious. I could see no one obviously enforcing rules at this event and no signposting for social distancing rules or for toilets.

Therefore, I am uncomfortable that some licences will be granted for more than a year without review. They are the most significant changes in licensing laws for years, and local authority and police services do not have any additional resources and will not be equipped to take on additional duties to monitor these licences for compliance without extra funding.

The proposal that local councils will have permission to revoke licences is, frankly, not good enough. Can the Minister clarify that local authorities and police forces locally have been allocated the necessary resources? Will these measures embed due regard to the rights of residents nearby, particularly those who are disabled or may be vulnerable young women, including the impact on women staff members? I was pleased that the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, referred to the danger of excessive availability late at night of cheap alcohol. As a former manager of drug and alcohol services, I agree wholeheartedly.

I am not convinced that communities, local authorities and police have been adequately consulted, particularly on the impact on people with disabilities and the environmental impact on their lives of these measures. Can the Minister say that residents, including those who are disabled, will be consulted—reaching out to all residents, including those for whom English may not be their first language? Will there be opportunities to express any dissent, and will a public reporting mechanism be established and made available in various locally relevant languages?

Finally, in support of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, and comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and other noble Lords, I agree that, even at this time of duress, this House must be assured of adherence to the fundamentals of the public sector equality duty, and thus respect all the prerequisites of ensuring compliance, not just by local authorities but by those who hold a licence. Throughout this pandemic, I have sought assurances from the Government that we heed local conditions and respect local needs, including those based on the population and its linguistic requirements, and consider lack of access to online services for a large section of our populations. I am confident that the Government will continue to honour this duty and ensure that public consultation materials, printed and online, are available in accessible formats—including Braille, audio and translated into some of the relevant languages—and made available on a variety of platforms, including ethnic minority media platforms.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, has withdrawn, so I now call the noble Lord, Lord Balfe.

[Lord Balfe [V]]

I am indebted to my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe for giving me a new description, which I am proud to have, of having reached a more stately stage of life. I plead guilty to that.

Mention has been made by my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe and by others of the need to get the economy moving, that this is a temporary measure and all the rest. I ask noble Lords to remember that we are sending out terribly mixed messages. I happened to be in Cambridge station yesterday, and there people are still being advised not to travel. They are still saying that you should stay at home, at the same time as the Government are saying that you should now suddenly not stay at home.

I do not accept that this will make that much difference. I referred earlier to the Office for National Statistics survey, which shows quite clearly that a very large number of people—indeed, a majority—have no intention of going back to an enclosed restaurant in the foreseeable future. We need to distinguish between a temporary measure and what I am beginning to sense is almost a panic measure—the belief that, if we pass this Bill, suddenly everybody will go back to restaurants; that is not necessarily true.

I make another point about my tour of Mill Road, Cambridge, which I introduced in the first series of amendments. I did a very close survey of it in connection with the alcohol licence I mentioned earlier, which was opposed. There are two, if not three shops in Mill Road which are owned by Muslims, and two of them, at least, do not, on principle, sell alcohol. The idea that seems to be punted around that everybody wants to sell alcohol as a way of getting back to normal is not necessarily true. There are shopkeepers that do not wish to sell alcohol but to make a living selling groceries.

I also welcome Amendment 17, in the name of my noble friend, Lord Holmes, in particular the provision that asks local authorities to visit the area. There is no real substitute for local people, particularly local councillors, looking at an area where an application has been made and applying some common-sense judgment. I would say that that is common-sense judgment very much bearing in mind the broad guidelines put forward by my noble friend Lord Blencathra. Some people will ask, “How wide should it be?”, so those guidelines are extremely important, but it is also important that local government and local councillors are made accountable for the decisions in their area. You cannot have local democracy if you are constantly falling back on saying, “Oh well, the Minister says this, the Minister has said that”. So I welcome that, and I think “the local authority must” is an important element.

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[Lord Carlile of Berriew [V]]

My Lords, I start by congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, on having the courage to present this important amendment, and on doing it so well—[Connection lost.]

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

Lord Carlile, are you still there? We had better move to the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, and we may try to get the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, back later.

[Lord Rennard (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the principle of providing pavement licences is welcome, and I believe that this amendment will help to encourage more businesses in the hospitality sector to open. It has been put forward superbly by my noble friend Lady Northover and other noble Lords.

Over the weekend, I was able to visit excellent cafés on the Eastbourne sea front which were all following sensible and necessary precautions in relation to social distancing et cetera. However, as an asthmatic who has never enjoyed having to suffer other people’s tobacco smoke, I would not have enjoyed the experience if I had been subject to smoke blowing across from nearby tables. I was also mindful that staff in these establishments could not be protected from second-hand smoking if it had been permitted in these outdoor areas. Where I went would not have seemed so family-friendly, and passers-by would have been at risk, as pavement licences will apply to areas close to where people will be walking.

There is some misunderstanding over this amendment. It is about smoking immediately outside premises, where smoke drifts in and staff and customers are heavily exposed. It is not unlike the prohibition on smoking, agreed in 2007, in relevant parts of railway stations. These regulations cover concourses, ticket halls and platforms. Smoking is at present banned in public places. That ban has wide support, and it should be banned where pavement licences are now granted. If we do what the tobacco companies want, we will be undermining the Government’s own aim of creating a smoke-free country by 2030.

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[Lord Naseby [V]]

My Lords, this is not a health Bill, as my noble friend Lady Noakes pointed out; it is a temporary measure. I am sorry to say this, but I think that this is an emotional amendment—and I speak as someone who is a non-smoker. I would remind your Lordships that tobacco is a legal product that is marketed with awareness packaging. Moreover, we need to take on board that we are talking about the nearly 7 million people in our population who still smoke, plus the 3.6 million who are vaping.

A great deal has been said about smoke curling around people who are eating and so on, but in an outdoor situation, tobacco smoke is highly diluted and dissipates very quickly in almost every atmospheric condition. It is absolutely right that smokers have a responsibility to behave properly towards the people around them, particularly when they are accompanied by children.

The proposal being put forward in this amendment to force pubs and cafés to ban smoking outside their premises—otherwise they will be refused permission to serve drinks—is wholly disproportionate. At a time when all our small businesses are on their knees, struggling to survive under the pressure of coping with Covid-19, I suggest that the last thing they need is further restrictions that will drive away desperately needed customers.

I am not saying that this measure would not be appropriate in a proper health Bill at some point, as soon as the authorities deem it to be relevant to take a particular action one way or another—but to hang this ban on to a temporary Bill that is designed to help every small business, not just those whose customers are not smokers, is entirely wrong in my view.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

Can we get the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, back?

[Lord Carlile of Berriew [V]]

My Lords, I apologise—just as I was speaking, there was a power cut in my home. I was saying that in 2015, some 115,000 people died of smoking-related diseases in the UK alone, at a time when knowledge of the dangers of smoking was complete. Since at least 2006, when a significant report was published by Stanford University, it has been known that exposure to tobacco smoke outdoors is less damaging but still potentially very damaging. The noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, who is a considerable medical expert in your Lordships’ House, described clearly how the effects of tobacco can be transferred outdoors.

Let us turn to the nature of the venues that we are discussing. We are not talking about people smoking cigarettes in a field or in a park, or walking along a pavement and making steady progress. The nature of many of the venues that we are discussing here involves canopies, umbrellas and, by definition, proximity. We need only look at the courtyard of every public house.

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So I ask the Minister to accept the inexorable logic and merits of this amendment. I thank noble Lords for allowing me a second go at this speech after my unfortunate power cut.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock.

[Baroness Pinnock [V]]

My Lords, we have heard powerful and eloquent contributions, led by my noble friend Lady Northover, on the imperative to ensure that by extending ways in which pubs and cafés can serve customers, we do not also inadvertently extend opportunities for smoking. All the arguments have been made. I wholeheartedly support this amendment. It has cross-party support. I look forward to the Minister indicating that the Government accept that this amendment is essential for public health.

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

My Lords, we now come to the group consisting of Amendment 24. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this amendment to a Division should make that clear in the debate.

Amendment 24

Moved by

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this or any other amendment in this group to a Division should make that clear in debate.

Clause 12: Removal of powers of court in relation to unfair relationships

Amendment 46

Moved by

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The Government must do all they can to remove barriers to the very existence of our companies, particularly SMEs, so that we can retain the jobs that they provide. Their ambition, which I support, is for a loan facility that is low-cost and simple. Without these amendments, the scheme would lose its simplicity, since lenders would be free to weave in extra hurdles, making the scheme less secure for the borrower and thereby less well-suited to the job. I urge the Government to stick to their ambition and retain the protection in law that other forms of lending now have.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

The noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, is not with us, so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Uddin.

[Baroness Uddin [V]]

My Lords, I support Amendment 48 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara. I have just a few brief points. I shall speak specifically about data collection and the reporting requirement for the Bounce Back Loan Schemes. Despite the pandemic, we cannot overlook the need for transparency, open government and a robust process of reporting to Parliament. Current data relating to the total number of applications and the number of loans granted does not make allowances for how well the scheme is working to help businesses through the crisis, including SMEs, as the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, referred to. There is inadequate data on the number of businesses that could not access loan schemes and why they were refused. This should be addressed in the reporting mechanism.

The curry industry, which I referred to earlier, has reported that its members are experiencing a great deal of difficulty in accessing this financial support. I am deeply concerned about eradicating any inequity that they might be experiencing. Therefore, I would like more detailed reporting to include the number of successful applications from SMEs led by BAME communities, particularly in the curry industry, and, more specifically for the curry industry itself, the actual number of applications that have been successful and those that have been rejected.

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Debate on whether Clause 13 should stand part of the Bill.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

We now come to the group beginning with the Question that Clause 13 stand part. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this, or anything else in this group, to a Division should make that clear in the debate.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I gave notice to oppose Clauses 13 and 14 because I did not understand them and felt that their meaning needed clarifying. This is an opportunity for the Minister to explain how they work in simple language. I thank the Minister and her team for the time they have taken explaining the clauses to me. Providing the Minister’s explanations are in line with our discussions, and she reads them into the record for the enlightenment of industry practitioners, I am optimistic that I will not need to take my concerns any further.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

I call the noble Earl, Lord Attlee. We cannot hear the noble Earl. We will move on to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and come back to the noble Earl later.

[Baroness Kramer [V]]

My Lords, I will be exceedingly brief. I only wanted to address Clause 14(2)(b), which is basically about HGV licence applications. The Government have, in effect, temporarily waived the requirement for medical certificates, which I find entirely appropriate in light of the pandemic and the difficulty of requiring the medical profession—distracting them, if you like—to carry out the various tests and fill out the various forms that would provide those certificates.

My question is this: having made the decision that it is possible to grant HGV licences on this basis, are the Government willing to agree to do the same for other applicants for drivers licences? I am particularly concerned about others who, like me, are about to turn 70. We, of course, have to obtain new licences as we reach 70. I have been able to do it very easily online because I have the right sort of picture-based identity and passport, and because I did not require a medical certificate.

However, I have received a number of letters from various people who have not been in that position and are now finding that their licences are expiring at a time when they really do need to be able to use their cars. Being over 70, they are quite anxious about going on public transport; I think most people would think that that was entirely appropriate. Having made a decision that it is going to temporarily waive that medical requirement for HGV drivers, will the Government now consider doing it particularly for the over-70s?

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

Have we got the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, back?

[Earl Attlee (Con) [V]]

Yes, I am here, my Lords.

I have Amendment 49 in this group and it may be convenient to speak to it now. Before doing so, I should declare an interest in that I operate heavy goods vehicles in a private capacity and present them for testing. The Committee will be pleased to hear that the last one I prepared passed first time, despite being of some age.

In a modern society we utilise, or go near, a wide range of equipment, facilities and infrastructure that, if not properly maintained, could be extremely hazardous. Think about electrical systems, trains, lifts, aircraft, the underground system—once run by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe—pressure vessels, steam boilers and the like. Disasters are very rare because the systems are subject both to regular and statutory inspections performed by what is termed a “competent person”—an individual who has the necessary experience, training and independence from the operator and the owner of the equipment, so that he or she can inspect the system or equipment without fear or favour. The competent person is not normally employed by the state but by private industry or commerce.

The Committee will be painfully aware that motor vehicles are a serious safety hazard if not properly maintained. Private motor cars are annually inspected by an MOT garage and the inspector is authorised by the Secretary of State but employed by the garage or testing station. There is no difficulty in securing a test date because the motor trade ensures there are a sufficient number of testing stations and authorised testers.

The situation with heavy goods vehicle testing is very different. What are termed authorised testing facilities—ATFs—are provided and funded by industry but authorised by the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency—the DVSA. The vehicle inspectors are employees of, and provided by, the DVSA. Levels of remuneration are screwed down by the Treasury to such an extent that the DVSA is always underresourced, with only just enough inspectors to meet demand—at best. Even in normal times, one would expect to wait six weeks for a new test date. This is not a short-term Covid problem.