Points of Order

John Healey Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)]

I thank the hon. Member for giving me notice of his point of order. As he will, I believe, be aware, I have been given no indication that the Secretary of State will be making such a statement, but the Secretary of State is obviously here and taking note of what is being said, and if he wishes to comment either now or later, he has the opportunity to do so.

[The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. We have seen, over recent weeks, a significant change in the action and in the rhetoric on Ukraine, and Ukraine’s action on the battlefield speaks for itself. We, as a nation and as a Government, are doubling down on our support for Ukraine, and are determined to do more. When I discussed this with Minister Umerov in a call yesterday, he talked about Ukraine’s robust response to recent Russian escalations—the escalation in the attacks on Ukrainian cities and children, the escalation in the attacks on the energy system, and the escalation that involves deploying 10,000 North Korean troops in combat positions on the frontline. We also discussed our plans, as the UK, to support the Ukrainians throughout 2025.

I remain committed to keeping Parliament as fully informed as possible. The hon. Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) and the House will, I think, understand the reasons why, at this point, I am not able to go into any further operational details.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I trust that that response has satisfied the hon. Member for South Suffolk.

Defence Programmes Developments

John Healey Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)]

With your permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will make a statement on defence programmes developments.

I have now been Secretary of State for four months, and it is an honour and a privilege to have this job. Every day I meet staff from the military, the civil service and industry who are totally inspiring and dedicated to keeping this country safe, often unseen and unheard by us and by the public. We are proud of their professionalism and thank them for everything that they do.

This is a new Government getting on with delivering for defence. We have stepped up support for Ukraine, signed the landmark Trinity House agreement with Germany, and given forces personnel the largest pay rise in more than 20 years. We have confirmed defence as a priority sector as part of the Government’s industrial strategy, and this week we secured the Second Reading of the Armed Forces Commissioner Bill to improve service life. Labour is the party of defence, and we will make Britain better defended.

We know that these are serious times. We have war in Europe, conflict in the middle east and increasing global threats. Technology is rapidly changing the nature of warfare, as we see right now in Ukraine. Before the election, we knew that there were serious problems with defence—one previous Conservative Defence Secretary told the House that our armed forces have been “hollowed out and underfunded” over the last 14 years.

However, as I have told the House since taking office, the problems were even worse than we thought. The inheritance was dire: the state of the finances and the forces was often hidden from Parliament, with billion-pound black holes in defence plans, taxpayers’ funds being wasted, and military morale down to record lows. That is why we are taking swift action to inject investment, get a grip on Ministry of Defence budgets and kick-start much-needed reforms to start fixing the foundations for UK defence. I will update the House on what we are doing.

First, I will mention investment. In July, the Chancellor exposed the £22 billion black hole at the heart of the Government’s plans. There were hundreds of unfunded pressures this year and into the future. The first duty of the Government is to keep this country safe, which is why the Chancellor announced in the Budget that defence will receive a boost next year of nearly £3 billion to start to fix the foundations for our forces. The Chancellor also told the House that we will set a clear path to 2.5% of GDP on defence, which will be fully funded, unlike the Conservatives’ unfunded pre-election gimmick, which was never built into Government finances. This is not just about how much we spend on defence; it is how we spend that counts. That is why we are conducting a strategic defence review at pace to assess the threats we face and the capabilities we will need in the future. That is also why I have introduced tight financial controls on the Department, including a £300 million reduction in planned consultancy spending. We are getting a grip on MOD budgets and investing in people and future technologies.

Secondly, I will mention kit and capabilities. For too long, our soldiers, sailors and aviators have been stuck with old, outdated equipment because Ministers would not make the difficult decommissioning decisions. As technology advances at pace, we must move faster towards the future, so, with full backing from our service chiefs, I can confirm that six outdated military capabilities will be taken out of service. These decisions are set to save the MOD £150 million over the next two years and up to £500 million over five years—savings that will be retained in full in defence.

Alongside this statement, I have made a written ministerial statement outlining the detail of my decommissioning decisions. They include decisions to decommission HMS Northumberland, a frigate with structural damage that makes her simply uneconomical to repair; 46 Watchkeeper mark 1s, which are 14-year-old Army drones that technology has overtaken; and HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark, landing ships effectively retired by previous Ministers but superficially kept on the books, at a cost of £9 million a year. They also include decisions to decommission 14 Chinooks, some more than 35 years old, which will be accelerated out of service; two Wave-class tankers, neither of which has been to sea for years; and 17 Puma helicopters, some of which have more than 50 years of flying. Their service will not be extended. I recognise that they will mean a lot to many who have sailed and flown in them during their deployments around the world. They have provided valuable capability over the years, but their work is done, and we must now look to the future. All current personnel will be redeployed or retrained; no one will be made redundant. As the First Sea Lord said about the retirements,

“The threat is changing so we must have the self-confidence to make the changes required”.

Of course, we should be in no doubt that the future of our Royal Marines and its elite force will be reinforced in the SDR.

These are common-sense decisions that previous Governments failed to take. They will secure better value for money for the taxpayer and better outcomes for the military. They are all backed by the chiefs and taken in consultation with strategic defence reviewers. Allies have been informed, and we have constant dialogue with NATO. Those will not be the last difficult decisions that I will have to make, given the defence inheritance that we were left with, but they will help us to get a grip on the finances, and give us greater scope to renew our forces as we look towards the strategic defence review and spending 2.5% of GDP on defence. I thank the chiefs for their determination to work with me on this.

Thirdly, I will mention reform. Defence reform has been of little interest to recent Defence Secretaries—it does not make headlines or advance careers—but the way that defence works must change to deal with the increasing and diversifying threats. I recently launched the biggest reform programme in defence for 50 years to create a stronger UK defence centre, secure better value for money and better outcomes for our armed forces, and better implement the strategic defence review. Central to a reformed defence will be our new, fully fledged national armaments director, whose recruitment is under way. The Chief of the Defence Staff will oversee a new military strategic headquarters, operating from the end of 2024, where he will formally command the individual service chiefs for the first time. He will be central in prioritising investment and spending between the services. The permanent secretary will lead a leaner Department with more policy muscle and influence. These reforms will ensure faster delivery, better integration and clearer accountability across defence to make our forces fit to fight in the future.

Finally, I will mention our people. This Government are putting defence people at the heart of our defence plans. We inherited a Conservative crisis in military recruitment and retention; targets have been missed every year for 14 years and morale is at a record low. We cannot fix those deep-set problems overnight, but Ministers are on a mission to lift military morale. We have awarded the forces the largest pay increase in more than 20 years, and I can announce that from April, I am introducing a new £30,000 retention payment for a cohort of tri-service aircraft engineers who sign up for an additional three years of service. It will be open to around 5,000 personnel in total. From January, we have a new £8,000 retention payment for Army personnel who have served for four years. That will support 4,000 personnel a year for three years—12,000 troops in total.

I have set out where we were, and where we are going. We are in a new era of rising global tensions, and we need a new era for UK defence. To achieve that, the Government are investing £3 billion extra next year and setting a clear path to 2.5%. We are driving far-reaching reform and fixing the foundations for our armed forces to make Britain better defended, strong at home and secure abroad.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

I call the shadow Defence Secretary.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Healey]

That was a rather wide-ranging response that spanned the fiscal position in 2010 and farming today. I remind the hon. Gentleman that the last time this country spent 2.5% on defence was in 2010 under Labour, and that the Tory plan to spend 2.5% on defence was a pre-election gimmick, announced four weeks before the election was called and never hardwired into any Government finances. That is why it was unfunded; that is why it was a pre-election gimmick; and that is why the Institute for Fiscal Studies called the plan “misleading”.

I readily pay tribute to Ben Wallace as one of my predecessors. The hon. Gentleman talked not about defence reform, but about the decision that Ben Wallace rightly made to step up with military aid to Ukraine, so that we led the field and made sure that other countries followed suit. We were proud to support those decisions in opposition, and we are proud to continue that UK leadership, and to help command the continued, united support for Ukraine.

I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s welcome for the retention incentives, which are for aircraft engineers, as well as the retention payments for the Army ranks. Those payments are for privates and lance-corporals; they stand as I have announced them, and will start from January. I am glad of his welcome for the decision I took on Watchkeeper. He did indeed launch a drone strategy as defence procurement Minister. He recognises that we are talking about a 14-year-old drone in the hands of the British Army, and that the innovation cycle for drones in Ukraine is two to three months. We can do better; the Army knows how it will do better, and it will replace Watchkeeper.

The hon. Gentleman also asked questions about helicopters, the future structure of our forces, and the capabilities we need. Those areas are being considered by the strategic defence review. As I said in my statement, I made today’s decisions in consultation with the reviewers, to make sure that they are aligned in their thinking, and in dialogue with NATO.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark. Those ships were mothballed; there were no plans for either of them to go back to sea for nearly 10 years—until they were due to be taken out of service. They were not ready to sail or to fight. There are capabilities there that can be covered elsewhere. That will save us money every year—money that we can redeploy in defence, and put towards upgrading our forces and technologies.

The hon. Gentleman saw the figures before the election that I saw afterwards. He knows the truth of the black hole that his Government left across the board, but he did nothing in defence to get a grip on the budgets, or to decommission out-of-date kit. I am taking action now to strengthen defence for the future. These decisions are overdue, and the service chiefs support these changes, which means that we can move more rapidly—as we must, learning the lessons from Ukraine and recognising the changing nature of warfare and the rising global threats. We have to evolve our equipment, and invest in and prepare our forces for the future.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

I call the Chair of the Defence Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)]

Overall, I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement today, because some of the work to reform the operations of the Ministry of Defence is long overdue. It is right that old platforms be retired and that we transition to newer equipment. I am also glad to note that the plan has the full backing of our military chiefs.

However, this plan is being implemented without the full findings of the strategic defence review having been announced, and obviously it has cost implications as well as an impact on our people, so can the Secretary of State advise me on a couple of things? First, will the unrequired kit be either sold to allies or given to Ukraine? Secondly, how will our people be reskilled and retrained, so that there are no job losses?

[John Healey]

As I said in my statement, the decisions I have taken help us to get a grip of the MOD budget now and create greater scope to better implement the strategic defence review when it reports. These decisions, as I said, are overdue. They were ducked by Ministers in the previous Government. Further decisions about what to do with the decommissioned equipment have not yet been made, but when I make those decisions, I will ensure that I inform my hon. Friend’s Committee. I look forward to the grilling that he and his colleagues on the Committee are set to give me tomorrow morning, no doubt about this and a number of other things.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Healey]

My statement was very clear. I made these decisions in consultation with the strategic defence reviewers. It is not for them to back them or not. But if the hon. Gentleman asked them, I am sure they would say that these are entirely the right decisions, that they go in the right direction and that they start to make our forces more fit for the future. These decisions are consistent with the direction of our thinking, which is why I can confidently take them now, because we need to create the scope to move faster towards the future once the defence review reports.

We also need to do more to deal with the dire state of the finances that we inherited in defence and across the Government. The hon. Gentleman asks about the Chinooks. This acceleration of their retirement will apply to the 14 oldest helicopters in a fleet of more than 50, some of which are more than 35 years old. This means that the oldest 14 will be retired at the point when they are due to enter a costly maintenance package. That will not happen, and it means we can speed up the transition to the new, much more capable Chinooks that will arrive. It also means that we can save money for defence that we can redeploy to other purposes.

Finally, I very much hope that we can sign up the hon. Gentleman’s nephew with the new aircraft engineers incentive payment.

[Derek Twigg (Widnes and Halewood) (Lab)]

Those needing to know in what state the last Government left the armed forces should look at the report on readiness for war by the Defence Committee, on which there was a Conservative majority. I really welcome the Secretary of State’s statement, particularly on waste and on the recruitment and retention of key people in the armed forces. However, on the issue of defence reform, can I ask him whether in the few months he has been in the job he feels that the MOD is fit for purpose? Is it agile and adaptable enough for the modern, oncoming threats we face?

[John Healey]

The short answer to my hon. Friend’s question is no, which is precisely the reason for the far-reaching reforms that I have begun. This process will continue, I expect, through my entire time in this post. It needs to be relentless, far-reaching and radical; otherwise, we simply will not be able as a country to fashion the forces we need in the future to be able to fight, deter and defend this country.

I say to my hon. Friend, who is one of the leading experts on defence, having served as a Defence Committee member during the previous Government, that I value his view, and I refer Opposition Front Benchers to the points he made. I congratulate him on being, and wish him well as, the leader of the new UK parliamentary delegation to NATO. I wish all the Members involved, from both Houses and from all sides, a successful delegation visit to Montreal later this week.

[Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con)]

I have known the right hon. Gentleman for a long time, and he will know that I have a high regard for him, so I simply offer him these words from my knowledge of all the battles one undertakes within government—always with the Treasury.

Putting aside for one second any party difference on this, we all want a functional and ready defensive force able to take on whatever comes at us. We live in a very unstable and dangerous world—more dangerous than at any time I can recall. The Government rightly, and I welcome this, set up the strategic defence review to set out the key priorities and key threats, and it therefore seems reasonable to me that we should wait for this report, which I believe will strengthen the MOD’s arm in future discussions, negotiations and battles with the Treasury—always with the Treasury.

I pose this simple question to the right hon. Gentleman. When he feeds little bits and pieces to the Treasury ahead of the review, it will come back for more. Bulwark and Albion still had life in them and could have been resurrected; mothballing is what the Americans use all the time. Could I please suggest that he rethinks this process, and says to the Treasury, “Back off now, and when the review is there, we can have a proper discussion and a proper debate”?

[John Healey]

I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman’s tone and his advice. On the savings I have outlined that will flow from the six decommissioning decisions, that money will be retained in full in defence. It will not go to the Treasury. He links finances to the strategic defence review. The Prime Minister has always been clear since the NATO summit in Washington in July that it is the strategic defence review first and the pathway to 2.5% second, and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury recently confirmed that we should expect that in the spring.

[Chris Evans (Caerphilly) (Lab/Co-op)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend, and it is good to hear a Secretary of State finally getting to grips with the root and branch reform that we need in the MOD. I want him to cast his mind back to the dossier on waste that we produced in opposition. It showed that, since 2010, £13 billion of taxpayers’ money had been wasted by the MOD. Will he commit, as he did in that report, to a root and branch National Audit Office report on MOD waste, and to the MOD being the first Department to be referred to the Office for Value for Money? Will he also commit to continuing to update this House on his ongoing battle against MOD waste?

[John Healey]

I appreciate my hon. Friend’s comments, and the reminder to this House of the dossier of defence waste that we did indeed work on together in opposition. I can confirm to him and the House that I have commissioned an internal audit of waste, but I have not waited for the results of that; I have already reduced the consultancy spend by £300 million this year. It was set to be a ballooned £1 billion over three years for consultancy and extra staff. I have also scrapped the Tories’ £40 million VIP helicopter contract, which was money spent on moving VIPs around the country, rather than investing in our servicemen and women, which we can now do.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

This is a black day for the Royal Marines. I advise the Defence Secretary that he would do well to have a look at the report, “Sunset for the Royal Marines?”, which was published by the Defence Committee in February 2018, when the issue of scrapping our amphibious assault ships was described by the cross-party Committee as “militarily illiterate” and totally at variance with strategic reality. Does he accept that the purpose of HMS Albion and HMS  Bulwark, which were due to remain in service for nine and 10 more years respectively, is to have the capability of making a landing across a foreshore when it is opposed by enemy forces, just as the Fearless and Intrepid did the job before Albion and Bulwark? Does he agree that we have no way of knowing whether the absence of that capability for the next decade will be an incentive for somebody to try something like the Falklands?

[John Healey]

I have a huge amount of respect for the right hon. Gentleman. He led the Committee that produced an important report, but it was six years ago. Far from it being “a black day”, as he says, this statement signals a bright future, which will be reinforced by the SDR for the Marines and their elite force. On HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark, he is right that both ships were not due to go out of service for nine and 10 years respectively, but neither—given the state they are in and decisions taken by the last Government—were set to sail again. In other words, they had in practice been taken out of service, but Ministers had not been willing to admit that. Our three Bay-class landing ships and RFA Argus for now will continue to provide, as they do currently, the amphibious capability. That will allow us to save at least £9 million a year that would have been spent under the previous plans, and it will allow us to focus much more strongly on the multi-role support ships, which promise to have a greater capability and a broader range of ability for the future.

[Johanna Baxter (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (Lab)]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s focus on the future of our forces, which has been backed by the chiefs, and I particularly welcome the retention payments for our aircraft engineers and Army personnel. As others have alluded to, technology is changing the nature of the threats that we face. Can the Secretary of State confirm that this Government will work closely with the defence industry to harness new technologies to ensure that our forces have the kit they need to respond effectively to increasing threats?

[John Healey]

I can confirm that, and I welcome my hon. Friend’s comments. The best exemplification of the argument she makes is in the Army’s plans to rapidly replace the Watchkeeper mark 1 capability. It is a 14-year-old drone in an era where, as Ukraine tells us, drone technology has a lifecycle of two to three months. The Army knows what it can do better. It knows it can do it more quickly. It knows how it will focus its efforts for the future. Decommissioning the Watchkeeper mark 1s will allow it better to do that.

[Mike Martin (Tunbridge Wells) (LD)]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement, and I recognise and appreciate that he is doing a difficult job in a dangerous world. Can I seek some clarification on the scrapping of HMS Bulwark and HMS Albion? We are told that there is a bright future for the Royal Marines, yet at the same time we hear from the Government that decisions about defence capabilities will be made in the strategic defence review. Can the Secretary of State tell the House precisely what conversations he has had about the future of the Royal Marines? Specifically, what does that mean for the UK’s commitment towards NATO to defend the high north?

--- Later in debate ---

[John Healey]

The statement means no change to the available amphibious capability, because, in practice, Albion and Bulwark had been mothballed. They are out of action, and there were no plans for them to sail again until they were to be taken out of service a decade into the future. This position allows us to focus more quickly on the more modern, more flexible capabilities we will need for the future. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on becoming a member of the Defence Committee. I am sure that if he is at the Committee sitting tomorrow morning, he will pursue this matter further.

[Fred Thomas (Plymouth Moor View) (Lab)]

A bit of this debate should be about honesty. If the Ministry of Defence were to step forward and say, “We want to modernise and be able to buy kit at scale and at pace, but we have a limited budget,” it would just be being honest and realistic to say that we have to let some things go.

With my Royal Marines background, I first went on Bulwark in 2017 on a training exercise, learning how to plan and execute raiding operations. I have fond memories of the ship, as do many in the Royal Marines, but that exercise was not conducted at sea; it was conducted with Bulwark alongside in Devonport, where it has remained for a number of years. Even then, we were told, “You will go not on this ship at sea. It will not happen.” People knew that at the time, so can we be honest?

On Plymouth and Devonport, where Albion and Bulwark are, and HMS Westminster, which the Secretary of State has also mentioned, may I ask him how the jobs and workers in Plymouth will be protected? With new submarines coming forward at huge scale, can we talk about the investment in Plymouth required—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

Order. I call the Secretary of State.

[John Healey]

My hon. Friend is right that too often decisions were ducked or Parliament was too often not fully informed when they were taken. The point he makes about the experience on Bulwark is telling. We do not have the capability, if it is incapable of sailing. We do not have the facility to train effectively on it, if all it can do is stay alongside. In practice, as I said earlier, Bulwark and Albion had been taken out of action; Ministers had just been unwilling to level with the public and with Parliament about that. I understand his interest in the case of Plymouth and Devonport. I have been a strong supporter in opposition and in government of the Team Barrow transformation approach. There is a case for looking at replicating a similar model in other parts of the country. For me, the first in frame would be Plymouth.

[Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

What does this announcement tell us about how the strategic defence review is going? One lesson of the Ukraine war is that old kit can be very useful. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) said, America’s airfields and dockyards are stacked full of old kit for future contingencies. We are throwing away capabilities that are only out of commission because there was not enough money. Now the Secretary of State is telling us that there is probably even less money. Please will he not come to this House and pretend he is just clearing out an old cupboard of rubbish that everybody had forgotten about and that the defence chiefs are hopping up and down with delight at his clearing out.

[John Healey]

The hon. Gentleman has a long interest and great expertise in defence. Over the years, I have listened to him make the argument that the UK’s alacrity in disposing of any decommissioned kit and commitment was a strategy that should be reviewed and rethought and was different from that of some other countries. I have made it clear to the House today that the decommissioning decisions have been taken, but what we do with the kit as it comes out of service has not yet been settled.

On the strategic defence review, what my decisions and announcements tell the House and the hon. Gentleman are, first, that people will be at the heart of the plans for the future, and secondly, that the technology is changing at an accelerating pace. That imperative will be part of the strategic defence review. The lesson of Ukraine also tells us that we must have an increasingly integrated force—that is reflected in the decisions I have taken today. He should expect that to be reflected also in the confirmation and recommendations of the strategic defence review.

[Gregor Poynton (Livingston) (Lab)]

Another day, another Labour Minister at the Dispatch Box cleaning up the mess left by the Conservative party. Does the Secretary of State agree that the decisions outlined in today’s statement will fix the foundations of our nation’s defence, spend every penny he has wisely and keep our nation safer?

[John Healey]

My hon. Friend is right. I would add that when, inevitably, we want to do more than we can afford, we must focus our resources on the areas of most importance. That is the underlying principle that applies to the retention payments for the tri-service aircraft engineers, lance corporals and other ranks in the Army after four years’ service, which I have been able to announce this afternoon. We need them for the future. We have trained them, they have great skills and we want them to have a longer and more productive career in our armed forces.

[Dave Doogan (Angus and Perthshire Glens) (SNP)]

Servicemen and women will have listened with despair to the Government and the Opposition argue about whether the strategic and catastrophic underfunding of the armed forces was over the last 14 or the last 30 years. Either way, it results in the situation of defence of the realm that we find ourselves in.

Given the Secretary of State’s announcement today, and with one more Type 23 to bite the dust, can he advise how many escorts and frigates will be available—subject to the power improvement project on Type 45 —before Type 31 and Type 26 are available? What about the AW149 new medium-lift helicopter? Why is this Government moving at a snail’s pace, as the last Government did, on new medium-lift helicopters? What message does the 31 rotary-linked platforms and five Royal Navy and Royal Fleet Auxiliary ships coming out of service send to the outside world? What will the strategic defence review do to bolster that situation? Some £300 million less is being spent on consultants, but can the Secretary of State advise what the consultancy spend will be now in the MOD?

[John Healey]

It will be £300 million less than it would have been before. The decision on HMS Northumberland makes no difference to the availability of the Royal Navy ships at sea, because that ship was not capable. Refitting it in its current state, as planned, could have cost hundreds of millions of pounds—that is also behind my decision. The process for the medium-lift helicopters is under way and continues.

[Jacob Collier (Burton and Uttoxeter) (Lab)]

On a recent visit to Commando Training Centre Royal Marines with the armed forces parliamentary scheme we saw the amazing Gordon Messenger facility, which serves Royal Marines, their families and veterans. It is a true community hub, and was valued by everyone in the service. Will the Secretary of State say more about the support that this Government are giving to service personnel, veterans and their families?

[John Healey]

One of the most important things that this House—never mind the Government who introduced the Bill—has done in the past week is to give its full backing to the Second Reading of the Armed Forces Commissioner Bill. This is an independent champion who will improve service life and will be there for those who serve and the families who support them. I look forward to my hon. Friend’s contribution to those debates, and I congratulate him on becoming a member of the armed forces parliamentary scheme, which is a great scheme. I know that he will have inspiring experiences and will make an even more informed contribution to debates in this House.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

I appreciate the constraints on the Defence Secretary, but this statement makes a mockery of the SDR process. It also removes significant lines of contingent capability. He says that these will not be the last difficult decisions that he will have to make and that he is working in lockstep with the SDR, so is he, and is it, rolling the pitch for the removal or mothballing of the carriers, as has been rumoured? Does he understand what that means for the future of the Royal Navy as a globally deployable blue-water navy? Given his comments on Albion and Bulwark, is he also rolling the pitch for the future of the Royal Marines, since the two are intertwined and will be for the next 10 years before a replacement can be provided?

[John Healey]

Bulwark and Albion are not capabilities available to the Marines at present. On the Marines, I have said three times this afternoon that the future of its elite force, as part of the complex of what we need for the future, will be reinforced in the SDR. That is what I expect. The decisions that I have announced today are consistent with the SDR. He wrongly suggested that somehow these announcements make a mockery of it, but they are entirely consistent and are taken in consultation with the reviewers. On the future of carriers, in recent weeks my hon. Friend the Minister for the Armed Forces and I have paid particular attention to the plans for one of those carriers to undertake the carrier strike 2025 voyage into the Indo-Pacific, where it will have validation exercises with some important allies. It is a vital part of our ability to reinforce both our hard power and our soft power in future.

[Graeme Downie (Dunfermline and Dollar) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his statement. It is clear both from the statement and from the follow-up questions that the previous Government have wasted millions of pounds in defence spending that could have been spent better, making it clear that Labour is the party of defence. That money could also have been spent better in our economy, to support the defence sector across the UK. What steps will the Secretary of State take to ensure that future programmes will be spent in the UK? What guarantees can he offer to support shipbuilding across this country?

[John Healey]

I am proud of our tradition of UK shipbuilding, including in Scotland. I want Britain’s warships to be built in Britain. My hon. Friend may be aware that we are committed to make the Government’s industrial strategy with the defence sector one of those priority sectors, so that we not only strengthen our forces for the future but use defence to strengthen our economy, create fresh jobs and back the innovative companies that will have a bigger part to play in both our security and our prosperity.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

The Secretary of State presented the savings as no-brainers—the ships were damaged and obsolete—but in his closing remarks he told us that these would not be the last difficult decisions. He simply cannot have it both ways. It is all about the messaging in the end. What message will be received from this statement in Buenos Aires, Moscow, Peking and Tehran?

[John Healey]

The message is clear: we now have a Government who are willing to take the decisions to deal with outdated equipment that should have been retired long ago, so that we can switch our focus and our finances, and develop the capabilities, technologies and weaponry that our forces need to fight more effectively in future.

[Kevin Bonavia (Stevenage) (Lab)]

I very much welcome today’s statement from the Secretary of State. It is rather galling to hear from Opposition Members about cuts, when the previous Government’s biggest cut was to our armed forces—to the smallest size since the end of the Napoleonic wars. In that vein, I very much welcome the increase in the salaries of our armed forces, the highest in 20 years, and in particular the retention payments to aircraft engineers and serving armed personnel. What message can my right hon. Friend give to those who are in our armed forces, and those who are thinking about a career in our armed forces, that they will have a better future if they serve?

[John Healey]

The message is that our UK armed forces offer a fantastic career: a wide range of opportunity and skills for any young person who wants to sign up that will give them experiences and set them up for life. My hon. Friend is totally right when he talks about Conservative cuts. In the first year of a Labour Government, we are increasing defence spending by nearly £3 billion. In the first year of the Conservative Government in 2010, they cut defence by £2 billion.

[Sir Gavin Williamson (Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge) (Con)]

If I can echo the words of my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith)—now that the Secretary of State’s Treasury minder has left the Chamber, he will be able to speak more openly about some of the challenges he faces in dealing with the Treasury—I appreciate that the Secretary of State faces really difficult decisions and that all these decisions will have been incredibly hard to make, but will he confirm to the House that the Chinooks and the Pumas will, as a first option, be at least offered to the Ukrainians to see if they can use them in any way at all?

[John Healey]

Given the right hon. Gentleman’s experience in this very job, I will take that as an early representation on the future decisions I will have to take on what to do with the kit once it is decommissioned.

[Richard Tice (Boston and Skegness) (Reform)]

The Secretary of State rightly says that the MOD needs reform. One of the major failures has been the procurement of equipment, which has led to the wasting of hundreds of millions, if not billions, of pounds of taxpayers’ cash. Will he commit to also reform the recruitment of new personnel into the armed forces? Nobody has a good word to say about the outsourcing contract to Capita. Bring it in-house. Will he commit to that?

[John Healey]

The hon. Gentleman is right. Procurement is one of the first focuses and most important areas for further reform in defence, but defence reform is required across the board. On recruitment, I hope he will welcome the steps I have already taken to remove almost 100 bits of red tape that prevent young people from being recruited. I hope he will welcome the tough targets for the rapid turnaround in recruitment and an offer of a training place. I hope he will welcome also the direct recruitment route for those who want to join our cyber-forces, as part of reinforcing our national security.

[Anna Gelderd (South East Cornwall) (Lab)]

With close social and economic ties between communities on both sides of the Tamar, a Devonport deal is very important to people in South East Cornwall and in Plymouth. Will the Secretary of State commit to scoping a Devonport deal that looks to the future?

[John Healey]

If my hon. Friend, with her south-west posse, wants to come to see me to discuss this matter, I would be very happy to try to arrange that soon.

[Tim Roca (Macclesfield) (Lab)]

The Minister of State for Defence in the other place earlier today talked about the world becoming darker and darker. Can the Secretary of State assure us, after the difficult decisions he has had to take today, that the SDR will be robust and that the defence equipment plan will reflect future threats and the future capabilities that our armed forces will require?

[John Healey]

My hon. Friend puts his finger exactly on the button. At the heart of the SDR is an assessment of the increasing and diversifying threats we face, the rapidly changing technology and nature of warfare, and therefore the capabilities we require for the future and the sort of forces we require for the future. Those are at the heart of the work the reviewers are doing at the moment. They are doing that in a thorough way and at pace. I expect them to conclude early in the new year.

[Rebecca Smith (South West Devon) (Con)]

While it is deeply disappointing to hear the decisions around Devonport’s surface fleet today, in particular as the MP for a proud home to the Royal Marines and 42 Commando, it does provide, as has been alluded to by some colleagues on the Labour Benches, an opportunity to raise again the need for a Devonport deal, and in particular Plymouth and Devonport’s role in refitting the Royal Navy’s submarines going forward. As a member of that south-west posse, it is great that the Secretary of State has already offered a meeting. However, what we are specifically looking for is cross-ministerial commitment. We are getting plenty of meetings, but we want to know that the Ministers are joined up and having conversations cross-departmentally, and that the Devonport deal might be able to offer Plymouth and the wider south-west a future as we see these armed forces changes.

[John Healey]

I regard defence as largely beyond party politics, so I am happy to extend, on a cross-party basis, that invitation to a meeting to the hon. Lady. What I cannot undertake to do is to promise to deliver a cross-ministerial meeting, but if she is happy to start with me, then that is what we can do.

[Alex Ballinger (Halesowen) (Lab)]

As one of a number of Royal Marines on the Labour Benches, I really welcome the Secretary of State’s commitment to the Royal Marines in the forthcoming SDR. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth Moor View (Fred Thomas), I served on HMS Albion, but that was 15 years ago. I think we all recognise that the battlefield has changed and that it is important we have the financing available to invest in the technology of the future. On reform, I notice that only two out of 49 major defence programmes are on time and on budget at the moment. What steps is the Secretary of State taking on defence reform to ensure the failures we saw under the previous Government can never be repeated?

[John Healey]

My hon. Friend refers to the regular reporting of the Major Projects Authority. The fact that only two out of 49 major defence projects can be said to be on time and on budget means that the Department is not delivering effectively for the taxpayer or for our forces. That is why defence reform, far reaching and deep, is required.

[Mr Mark Sewards (Leeds South West and Morley) (Lab)]

I welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement today. It is really good to have a Secretary of State who is taking the long-term decisions to ensure our military is fit for the future. I particularly welcome the fact that all personnel affected by today’s decisions will be retrained or redeployed. In his first month in the job, the Prime Minister stated at the NATO summit that we were firmly committed to increasing defence spending to that 2.5% target. Given that this today’s final question, will he take this opportunity to restate not only that commitment, but also our commitment to take the long-term decisions so that our armed forces are equipped to ensure that our country is secure at home and strong abroad?

[John Healey]

My hon. Friend does not just ask about the detail of the statement, but cuts right to the chase of the purpose of the announcements I have made today. I will reinforce his point. The purpose is that we can make Britain better defended: we can make Britain more secure at home and strong abroad. That is exactly what this Government are determined to do.

Defence Programme Developments

John Healey Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2024 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)]

I have today made an oral statement setting out how our new Government are addressing the challenges facing UK defence. This written ministerial statement provides fuller detail about the decisions I have taken on certain defence programmes.

We face increasing global threats—war in Europe, growing Russian aggression, conflict in the middle east, and technology changing the nature of warfare. As a result, defence needs increased resilience and readiness for the future. We also face serious financial pressures in the defence budget. Our Government have taken immediate action, confirming an additional £2.9 billion for the defence budget in 2025-26 to help start fixing the foundations of UK defence. And we will set a clear path to spending 2.5% of GDP on defence.

To ensure that Britain is kept secure at home and strong abroad in a changing world, defence needs to make changes, too. Difficult decisions are required. As I set out in today’s oral statement, this includes the retirement of ageing equipment as we transition to new capabilities and make our armed forces fit for the future. These decisions will deliver better value for money and ensure we are in a better position to modernise and strengthen UK defence.

I have halted the current refit of HMS Northumberland, a Type 23 frigate, which will now be retired from the fleet in March 2025. As a result of service well beyond the original Type 23 out-of-service date, the structural damage discovered during refit makes her uneconomical to repair. There will be no impact on current operations, and the ship’s company has already been assigned elsewhere for the refit period. The Type 23 frigates will be replaced by the most advanced anti-submarine warfare frigates in the world: the Type 26, the first of which, HMS Glasgow, will be delivered by 2027.

HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark, the Royal Navy’s two amphibious assault ships, will be retired from service by the end of March 2025. Both are currently held at lower readiness, having not been to sea since 2023 and 2017 respectively. On current planning, neither was due to go to sea again before their planned out-of-service dates of 2033 and 2034. They had, in effect, been mothballed, but were still costing the taxpayer around £9 million per year to maintain. Almost all crew have been reassigned already, and the rest will be reassigned once the ships are retired. They will be replaced by planned multi-role support ships. In the meantime, the Commando Force will continue to be supported by the three Bay-class auxiliary landing ship docks and RFA Argus.

The Wave class auxiliary oilers, RFA Wave Knight and RFA Wave Ruler, will be retired from service by the end of March 2025. They have not been to sea since 2017 and 2022 respectively. They are currently in extended readiness and are not due to return to sea before their planned out-of-service date in 2028. All crew have been reassigned already. The fleet’s operations and training will be unaffected, with the more modern Tide-class auxiliary oilers fulfilling all requirements.

The Army’s Watchkeeper Mk 1 uncrewed aerial system will be retired from service from March 2025. Watchkeeper Mk 1 was introduced in 2010. Since then, drone technology has advanced at a rapid rate, accelerated by prolific use throughout the war in Ukraine. A modern army must self-evidently have a modern drone capability, able to operate in the most challenging environments. Following the retirement of Watchkeeper Mk 1, the Army will rapidly switch to a new advanced capability, drawing on the most recent operational lessons and technological developments.

The Chinook helicopter has been a workhorse for the armed forces since it first entered service in the Royal Air Force in 1980. Over the years, it has been upgraded many times. Fourteen of the most modern variant, the highly capable H-47(ER), will enter service with the Royal Air Force from 2027. Ahead of this arrival, decommissioning of the oldest 14 aircraft will be accelerated as they reach their next deep maintenance period over the next four years. Current personnel will be unaffected and will continue to train, ready for the introduction of the H-47(ER).

The Puma helicopter has similarly served the Royal Air Force for a long time, having been first introduced in 1971 and extended several times. Puma will be retired in March 2025 when its current support contract expires. Pumas currently operate solely in Cyprus and Brunei, where they will be replaced by the new Airbus H-145 from 2026. During this short gap in capability, a commercial or military solution will be used for firefighting on our sovereign base in Cyprus, and alternatives to Brunei will be used for some elements of jungle training.

These ships and aircraft have provided a valuable capability over many years, but we must look to the future. I recognise that they will mean a lot to many who currently serve, and have served, with and in them during their deployments around the world. All personnel will be redeployed or retrained.

These are not the only difficult decisions we will need to make, as a new Government, to deal with the fiscal inheritance, but they are decisions which secure better value for money for taxpayers and better outcomes for our military. They are set to save the MOD up to £150 million in the next two years, and up to £500 million over five years—savings that will be retained in full in defence. My decisions are all backed by our military chiefs and taken in consultation with those leading the strategic defence review. Allies have been informed, and we have constant dialogue with NATO. I am announcing this now in order to maximise the associated savings, which will be invested back into defence.

[HCWS239]

Armed Forces Commissioner Bill

John Healey Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 18th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Today, the Government take a major step to strengthen support for our armed forces and the families who stand behind them. The first duty of any Government is to keep our nation safe, and at the heart of that security are the men and women of our armed forces. In this role, I have the privilege of meeting many of those men and women who serve proudly, here in the UK and around the world. I see at first hand their dedication and professionalism and some of the extraordinary sacrifices they make in defence of our nation—from the 700 personnel who rapidly deployed to Cyprus over the summer to support our contingency planning for the safety of UK nationals in Lebanon, to the 140 Royal Navy submariners who I met recently at Faslane as they completed the final leg of their sea patrol. I had to apologise that mine was the first face they saw upon arriving home after so many months. On all sides of the House, we thank those men and women for such service.

I know, too, that all Members will join me in recognising that when we talk about loved ones away from home—a spouse or parent who may be deployed at a moment’s notice to another part of the UK or the world—we are talking about sacrifices that are made not only by those in uniform, but by the family members who support them. We cannot say enough that our forces’ families live their lives in service to the nation. As such, the Bill before the House establishes an independent Armed Forces Commissioner to improve service life for our serving personnel and their families. That is significant and long overdue.

[Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for giving way, and welcome his Armed Forces Commissioner Bill. As he has rightly pointed out, the Bill will allow our brave service personnel and their families to make complaints to the commissioner, but that right has not been given to bereaved family members. Can he reassure me and the House that bereaved families will also be given that right?

[John Healey]

I can indeed. Our definition of “relevant family members”, which is on the face of the Bill, will include bereaved families.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

Of course, the other group excluded from that provision is veterans—I speak as a veteran. Why is the Secretary of State not concerned about them? Should they not come under the auspices of this new official too? An example might be those who were exposed to potential contaminants at Camp Lejeune in the US. That is a thematic investigation that the new commissioner might undertake.

[John Healey]

Our first priority is those who serve and their families—those who are subject to service law. The range of agencies and services that support veterans is very different. A better way of improving support for veterans will be to fully implement the armed forces covenant in law, as well as the range of steps that the Minister for Veterans and People, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Selly Oak (Al Carns), has already started to take. We have taken the view that the commissioner established by this Bill will give their first priority and full focus to those who are serving, as well as their families, who are also impacted by their service life.

As I have said, this Bill is significant and long overdue. It is long overdue because the forces have been badly let down for the past 14 years. The Conservatives have created a crisis in recruitment, retention and morale. Last year, the trained strength of the armed forces fell at the fastest rate for a decade—with 300 more personnel leaving than joining every month—and service morale fell to its lowest level on record. Only four in 10 of our forces personnel report being satisfied with service life. They report that the impact on families and on personal life was the leading factor influencing their decision to leave.

[Gareth Snell (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Secretary of State will know that while the previous Government systematically failed, communities around the country did their best to support serving personnel and their families through military covenants. Some did that really well, while others did not. Could the Secretary of State say a little more about what role he sees for covenants in the work of the Armed Forces Commissioner, to ensure that commitments made in good faith by agencies around the country are delivered on so that serving personnel and their families can have easier, more rewarding lives?

[John Healey]

The covenant sets out the important principle that no one who is serving, or who has served, should be disadvantaged by that service. That is why, as an Opposition party before the election, Labour supported the then Government in their partial translation of the covenant into law. The job is only half done, and we will complete it. We aim to do so through the armed forces Bill that is to come, but although the role of the commissioner will exist in the context of the covenant, they will draw their powers from the legislation before the House. Their role will be defined in this legislation, and they will become a powerful independent voice for those who serve and the families who stand behind them.

Both our forces and their families have been failed for too long. That is why the Government are determined to renew the nation’s contract with those who serve. It is why the Government are putting people at the heart of our defence plans, and why I am now introducing this legislation as a priority in the first legislative Session of this Government.

We cannot reverse those deep-set problems overnight, but our mission is to lift military morale, and in these first four months we have been getting on with that job. We are investing in our servicemen and women, giving them the highest pay rise for over 20 years. We are putting forces families first, expanding childcare for forces families overseas. We are starting to fix forces recruitment with new recruitment targets, cutting red tape and a new direct cyber-route to recruit into the armed forces. We are also improving service life by introducing this Bill in Parliament to establish the Armed Forces Commissioner—a Government delivering for defence and delivering our manifesto commitment to establish that commissioner as an independent champion for our forces and their families to improve service life.

The commissioner will be a direct point of contact for serving personnel and their families, who will be able to raise concerns that may impact on their service lives and their ability to serve: everything from kit to food, housing, medical care, study programmes, promotions, childcare and support for spouses in work. The role is inspired by the long-established German parliamentary commissioner for the armed forces, which enjoys cross-party support in the Bundestag and support across the military. Dr Eva Högl, the current commissioner in Germany, told me:

“Since 1959, the year the German commissioner was first established, it has become well recognised, respected and unchallenged as an institution in Germany, safeguarding the basic rights of our soldiers.”

She went on to say:

“I would be delighted if this success story were to be repeated in the UK.”

That is exactly what we aim to do.

The commissioner will have the necessary access to personnel, information and defence sites. They will have the power to hear directly from service personnel and family members on their concerns connected with their service, and the power to investigate individual concerns and launch wide-ranging thematic investigations into those issues that materially impact personnel and families of the forces. They will have the power to demand access to information to facilitate their investigations and access to service premises—and in the UK to make those visits unannounced.

[Harriet Cross (Gordon and Buchan) (Con)]

How does the Secretary of State envisage the commissioner standing alongside others in the armed forces in terms of the chain of command? Has an assessment been made on that?

[John Healey]

The commissioner will be independent and separate from the chain of command, with powers that do not depend on or account to the chain of command in any way. They will have the power to make recommendations to improve service life and to set out the findings of their investigations in reports to be laid before Parliament. Their annual report will be an independent report to Parliament on the state of the forces and what we must do to improve our offer as a Government and as a nation to those who serve. It is my intention that a debate on that report becomes a regular part of the parliamentary calendar each and every year.

The commissioner and their reports will challenge Ministers, will strengthen parliamentary oversight and will raise awareness of the issues facing our forces. The commissioner will be subject to pre-appointment scrutiny by the Commons Defence Committee.

[Mr Dhesi]

The Secretary of State is being generous with his time. I note from the Bill that there is no prospect of approval being sought from the cross-party Defence Committee, although, as the Secretary of State just alluded to, there will be a pre-appointment hearing. Will he give me and the House an undertaking that if the Committee has concerns, he will listen closely to our recommendations and take action accordingly?

--- Later in debate ---

[John Healey]

I am grateful to the Select Committee’s Chair for intervening on this point. The legislation and what I propose reflects the current arrangements and practices in Parliament. I am keen that the Committee exercises the toughest pre-appointment scrutiny—we need to appoint somebody who can do the job as a fearless, independent champion—and I will certainly listen closely to and take close note of the Committee’s views in any pre-appointment hearing.

The Bill also provides for the commissioner to absorb the existing powers of the Service Complaints Ombudsman. Of course, the ombudsman’s role is too narrow: it is entirely reactive, it can consider formal individual grievances only after the service complaints system has been completed, and then it can judge only whether that process has been reasonable. I expect that the Armed Forces Commissioner will challenge us to do better in the service complaints system and widely across service life. I expect that the commissioner will develop strong views on improving the service complaints system, and I believe that the future Armed Forces Bill will offer us the right opportunity for that, should primary legislation be required.

This is landmark legislation to establish an independent Armed Forces Commissioner with the mission to improve service life. There will be, for the first time, a champion for our armed forces; for the first time, a champion for forces families; and for the first time, a champion with serious powers to access every part of service life, who will report in public to Parliament. I commend the Bill to the House.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

I call the shadow Secretary of State.

Oral Answers to Questions

John Healey Excerpts

Monday 18th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Dr Beccy Cooper (Worthing West) (Lab)]

1. What steps he is taking to improve service life for serving personnel and their families.

[The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)]

Over the last year, service morale fell to record lows, with over 300 more full-time personnel leaving the forces than joining each month. We cannot reverse these deep-set problems overnight, but this Government are putting people at the heart of our defence plans, and today will see the Second Reading of our legislation to establish an independent Armed Forces Commissioner to improve service life.

[Dr Cooper]

The package announced this weekend of 20 hours of funded wraparound childcare for families deployed overseas is very welcome. Can the Minister please assure us that this type of practical assistance will be a fundamental pillar of the Government’s support for forces families?

[John Healey]

I can indeed. Supporting our service families is really important, especially when they are far from home, and this scheme will reduce the burden of childcare costs for those eligible families overseas. This is a Government who are delivering for defence and putting our forces personnel at the heart of our defence plans.

[Dame Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

The Royal Fleet Auxiliary is often overlooked, yet it is vital to the sustainability and success of our Royal Navy. Often its pay and conditions do not keep track with either the armed forces or the civil service. What can the Secretary of State say to members of the RFA to reassure them that they are valued?

[John Healey]

Over the last decade or more, we have been expecting more of those members of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. They play a critical role in our maritime operations and they are highly valued as part of our services community. We see an important future for that service as part of building Britain’s defences for the future, and we are putting forces personnel and RFA personnel at the heart of our plans to ensure that we are more secure at home and strong abroad.

[Mr Speaker]

We come to the shadow Secretary of State.

[James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)]

On the subject of improving service life for service personnel and their families, thousands of families will be getting the unwelcome Christmas present this year of a 20% tax on the school fees that they pay to fund an independent boarding school or, otherwise, will have to allow their children’s education to be constantly destabilised. Given that this new tax is 100% the responsibility of the Government, will the Secretary of State confirm that the continuity of education allowance will be uplifted to fund 100% of the new tax on those fees?

[John Healey]

We will uprate the continuity of education allowance to reflect the increase in school fees from January. We will do that so that the allowance continues to maintain the schooling of the many children of personnel that are deployed. Our mission as a Government is to lift the morale of our services. That is why we are investing in our servicemen and women, supporting their families and starting to fix the problems of the last 14 years that we have inherited.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

2. What recent discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the potential merits of publishing all board of inquiry documents on the bombing of RFA Sir Galahad.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gregory Stafford (Farnham and Bordon) (Con)]

3. What his Department’s planned timetable is for the strategic defence review.

[The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)]

The strategic defence review is the first of its kind in the UK. It is externally led and draws widely on experts within Government and the military, as well as those from industry, academia and our allies. The reviewers will report in the spring.

[Gregory Stafford]

With the increasing threats we see around the world, the Government are entitled to conduct a strategic defence review, but that should not be an excuse not to commit to increasing defence spending. Given that the Secretary of State refused to provide a timetable at last week’s urgent question, will he now say yes or no to whether the Government will get to 2.5% of GDP on defence spending by the end of this Parliament?

[John Healey]

Everyone agrees that defence spending must rise. Under this Government, it is increasing by nearly £3 billion next year, and there is a cast-iron commitment that we will set a clear path to spending 2.5% of GDP on defence. Of course, the last time this country spent 2.5% of GDP on defence was in 2010 with a Labour Government.

[Graham Stringer (Blackley and Middleton South) (Lab)]

Deciding to defer or to review is just as much of a decision as one to go ahead or not to go ahead, because it means that nothing is happening. The Typhoon factory at Warton is currently idle—no Typhoons are being produced—which is bad for exports and bad for our defence. Can the Secretary of State tell the House when we will take a decision to procure more Typhoons? There are 25,000 jobs at risk, as well as the country’s defence.

[John Healey]

I have had the privilege of visiting Warton, and I have seen the skills, the technology and the workforce’s commitment and dedication to that job. The reviewers of the strategic defence review will produce their final report and make recommendations in the spring. In the meantime, my hon. Friend rightly points to exports. It may interest him to know that, last week, I was in Turkey and Saudi Arabia to discuss with Defence Ministers the future role that UK-made Typhoons could play in the defence of both countries.

[Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)]

Further to the question raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham and Bordon (Gregory Stafford), I welcome the £2.9 billion of extra defence expenditure from next year. However, not only do we not have a timetable for meeting 2.5% of GDP, which the whole House would like to hear about; will the Secretary of State confirm that there will be no additional funding for the in-year pressures that this Department, alongside so many others, is suffering from?

[John Healey]

The Chancellor set out in her Budget on 30 October the steps we are taking, across Government, to deal with the £22 billion in-year deficit that this Government inherited. On the commitment to 2.5% of GDP, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury has made it clear that we will set that path in the spring. I remind the House that the Prime Minister said at the NATO summit in Washington, back in July, that it was a question of the strategic defence review first, then the commitment and the path to 2.5%.

[Alex Baker (Aldershot) (Lab)]

My constituency is home to many small and medium-sized enterprises that contribute to our UK defence sector. What steps are the Government taking to ensure that submissions from SMEs to the strategic defence review are given equal weighting and consideration compared with submissions from prime contractors, in order to support innovation, job creation and competition within the UK defence sector?

[John Healey]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The shadow Defence Secretary will recognise the role that small, medium and growing companies can play in our defence and security sector better than anyone else in the House. That is one reason why, within days of getting this job, I did not just meet the big, leading defence companies; I had a similar meeting and briefing on the approach this Government will take with small and medium-sized companies, including growing companies, in the defence sector. Such companies will be an important focus for the strategic defence review, as the reforms and the long-term industrial strategy required to deliver stronger defences for this country are considered.

--- Later in debate ---

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

5. What plans he has to maintain the UK’s role in NATO.

[The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)]

NATO is the cornerstone of UK and Euro-Atlantic security. Our commitment to the alliance is unshakable. The strategic defence review will ensure that we have a NATO-first policy at the heart of Britain’s defence plans for the future.

[Bob Blackman]

Following the election of President Trump in the United States, there will clearly be much more pressure from the new US Administration on other countries in NATO to step up to the mark and put in the resources that they should be putting in to safeguard the defence of Europe. What action will the Secretary of State take to show leadership and ensure that other European countries step up and keep Europe safe from external threats such as Russia, China and beyond?

[John Healey]

Our cast-iron commitment to increase defence spending to 2.5% of GDP will help to set the pace in NATO. I am pleased that, while in 2001 only six NATO nations were meeting the pledge level of 2%, this year 23 nations are doing so. The UK commits almost all our armed forces and our nuclear deterrent to NATO, so we play a leading role. We will have a NATO-first policy at the heart of our defence plans, and will always look to be first in NATO as part of our leadership role.

[Chris McDonald (Stockton North) (Lab)]

Mindful that tomorrow marks the 1,000-day anniversary of the invasion of Ukraine, and of the increase in Russian hostility over the weekend, will my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State take this opportunity to assure the House of this Government’s continued steadfast support for both Ukraine and NATO?

[John Healey]

I will indeed. In the four months that this Government have been in office we have stepped up support for Ukraine and speeded up delivery of the military aid promised. This is a Government now spending more on military aid than ever before on behalf of the UK. I pay tribute to the Conservative party for the fact that the UK is and remains united for Ukraine.

[Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab)]

6. What progress he has made on establishing an independent armed forces commissioner.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Turmaine (Watford) (Lab)]

10. What steps he has taken to increase support for Ukraine.

[The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)]

With tomorrow marking 1,000 days since the start of President Putin’s brutal, illegal invasion of Ukraine, our commitment to stand with the Ukrainian people is absolute. We have stepped up with more military support, we have sped up deliveries, and we are now spending more on military aid as a country than ever before.

[Lillian Jones]

Tomorrow will be 1,000 days since Putin invaded Ukraine. My constituents in Kilmarnock and Loudoun have concerns about the ongoing welfare of Ukrainian civilians, so can the Secretary of State please assure my constituents that the Government will continue to offer support and aid to those in need? Will he underline our absolute support for Ukraine forces to end Putin’s aggression?

[John Healey]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. What she really says is that the Ukrainians have been fighting with huge courage—military and civilians alike—and the best way we can help the Ukrainians to defend their own civilians is to step up our support for Ukraine. That is why we have increased military support and aid to its highest level ever. We have signed a new industrial treaty with Ukraine worth £3.5 billion to increase military hardware. We have hit the £1 billion milestone for the UK-led international fund for Ukraine. We will stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes. This is a Government delivering for defence and for Ukraine.

[Matt Turmaine]

I thank the Secretary of State for his previous answers. Will he outline some of the detail of the support that has been offered to Ukraine and how that support is evolving as the conflict continues?

[John Healey]

At each stage, we have tried to respond to the requirements that the Ukrainians say that they have to match the state of their battle to defend their country. We have announced packages of artillery, of ammunition and of air defence, which is one of their most critical needs at present, including recently a new contract to supply short-range air defence missiles—the lightweight multi-role missiles. Those will be in Ukrainian hands at the turn of the year. We expect to step up that production and delivery during the course of next year.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

Does the Secretary of State share my concern at the recent media interview given by a leading candidate to be Labour’s next ambassador to Washington DC? This supposedly clever negotiator declared that Ukraine should not expect to get its territory back, and should not expect to be put on the path to join NATO, but could perhaps secure some security guarantees from western countries. Does the Secretary of State agree that whoever is sent to Washington should be somebody who supports Ukraine in defending itself and does not reward Russian aggression with pre-emptive capitulation?

[John Healey]

One of the first privileges I had in this new role was to represent the country at the NATO Washington summit. That was the point at which the NATO nations collectively agreed to step up support for Ukraine and to develop the security guarantees that Ukraine will need in the longer term. The task for us and allies that support Ukraine is to help Ukrainians and support them in their fight now. At the point at which they judge the talking should start, our role then is to give them equally steadfast support, and we will.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

I am sure the whole House stands solidly with Ukraine on its one thousandth day countering Russian aggression and doing so for us all, but its ability to do so is weakened by North Korea sending armaments and manpower, the Iranians sending drones, and oil contracts still being signed. Will the Minister assure us that, in the light of the American decision to allow strikes inside Russia, we will also give permission for our missiles to be used to break up concentrations of arms and material inside Russia?

[John Healey]

I will not be drawn on details about long-range missiles today—it risks operational security, and the only person who benefits from public debate is President Putin. As the right hon. Member rightly says, 10,000 North Korean troops are on the frontline in Russia. At the weekend, Russia launched its biggest aerial attack into Ukraine since August against infrastructure. I spoke yesterday to the US Defence Secretary about this escalation. I will speak to the Ukrainian Defence Minister about it later today. I want the House to be in no doubt: the Prime Minister has been clear that we must double down and give Ukraine the support it needs for as long as it needs. We will continue to work in close co-ordination with the US in our support for Ukraine.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Chair of the Defence Committee.

[Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)]

I asked the Secretary of State last month whether there was an update on the usage of Storm Shadow missiles by Ukraine. As has been widely reported, yesterday President Biden lifted restrictions on the use of long-range US missiles. Given the continuous bombing of Ukrainian communities by Russia, and given that thousands of North Korean troops are fighting against our ally in our continent, will Ukraine now be allowed to use those Storm Shadow missiles—obviously, within the confines of international law—or do we expect Ukraine to continue fighting and defending itself with one hand tied behind its back while keeping those Storm Shadows in safe storage?

[John Healey]

I say again that I will not compromise operational security and comment on the details of long-range systems today. The Prime Minister has been clear—as I am being to the House—that we must double down on the support to Ukraine, give it the support it needs and do so for as long as it takes. In doing so, we will continue our close co-operation with the US and allies in providing that support to Ukraine.

[James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)]

I join the Chair of the Defence Committee, the hon. Member for Slough (Mr Dhesi), in strongly welcoming the decision by the United States to permit Ukraine to use long-range missiles in Kursk. I know the Secretary of State does not want to go into operational detail—I understand that—but I assure him of our support if he follows through in relation to Storm Shadow, as we believe he should. There will be those who talk about escalation, but does he agree that the only escalation that matters here is 10,000 North Korean troops on the ground supporting Russia in its illegal war?

[John Healey]

The shadow Secretary of State is right that the one person responsible for escalation in this conflict is President Putin, and the one side that has been escalating in recent months is Russia. In recognising that he has escalated his illegal war against Ukraine by intensifying the use of glide bombs, destroying Ukraine’s energy infrastructure and deploying thousands of North Korean troops into combat positions in Kursk, I am discussing this very serious development with the US Defence Secretary and will be discussing it with the Ukrainian Defence Secretary this evening.

[David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale) (Con)]

Did the Prime Minister raise Ukraine during his meeting with President Xi given China’s undoubted influence over Russia and North Korea?

[John Healey]

I regard the Prime Minister’s meeting with President Xi as an important step forward. He is the first Prime Minister of the UK to meet the leader of China in nearly six years. After 14 years of damaging Conservative inconsistency on China, this Government will bring a long-term approach to managing our relations with China. We will co-operate where we can, compete where we should, and challenge where we must.

[Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)]

12. What steps his Department is taking to support the cadet forces.

--- Later in debate ---

[Luke Myer (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)]

This Government are delivering for defence. Last month, the UK and Germany signed the landmark Trinity House agreement, marking a new era of co-operation between our armed forces and our defence industries. With threats increasing, we must strengthen European security. Tomorrow marks the bloody milestone of 1,000 days since Putin’s illegal invasion of Ukraine began. The UK continues to be united for Ukraine, and the Government continue to step up support for Ukraine. As part of that, I can confirm today that 50,000 Ukrainian troops have now been trained through Operation Interflex —the UK-led multinational training programme—which I have now extended to run throughout 2025.

[Luke Myer]

I welcome that announcement by the Secretary of State. It should shame every politician in this House that today veterans who have served our country are still sleeping rough on our streets. Can the Secretary of State set out the steps he will take to ensure that homes will be there for heroes?

[John Healey]

Our first step was to ensure that veterans who face homelessness have a more advantaged place in social housing provision—that was announced by the Prime Minister in his Labour party conference speech and will be followed up by the Deputy Prime Minister in changes to the arrangements for local authority guidance. On the eve of Remembrance weekend, we also made a pledge of £3.5 million to help homeless veterans.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Secretary of State.

[James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)]

In relation to the cost of renting back our own military base on the Chagos islands, last week the Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty), said that the reason the Government refused to tell us what the cost will be is that

“it is not normal practice for the UK to reveal the value of payments for military bases anywhere across the globe”.—[Official Report, 13 November 2024; Vol. 756, c. 793.]

Is that correct?

[John Healey]

That is correct, but it is also true to say that the treaty is in the legal and national security interests of the UK and US. That is why the US Defence Secretary welcomed the agreement, which he said would

“safeguard the strategic security interests of the United Kingdom…and the United States…into the next century”.

[James Cartlidge]

The Secretary of State says it is true that it is not normal practice for the UK to reveal the value of payments for military bases, but there have actually been several written answers, under this Government and previous ones, giving the costs of overseas bases. For example, in November 2015 the then Minister for the Armed Forces—Penny Mordaunt, no less—revealed in a written answer the cost of 10 overseas bases, including Diego Garcia and the cost of leases. The reason for withholding the cost does not stack up. What does the Secretary of State have to hide from Parliament?

[John Healey]

Absolutely nothing, nor will we. It is a matter of course to confirm running costs for bases. What we are talking about here is an agreement leading to a treaty that will be put before this House. I have said to the House and to the shadow Secretary of State that we will set out the costs and the details of that treaty in due course when the House comes to consider it.

[Sally Jameson (Doncaster Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

T2. In Doncaster, we are proud to have an armed forces covenant co-ordinator, the fantastic Teresa Hodgson, and a Doncaster armed forces covenant board, which is a coalition of groups and organisations committed to supporting the armed forces community in Doncaster. Will the Minister visit my constituency to speak to the board and discuss the action that the Government are taking to support veterans facing homelessness?

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[Helen Maguire (Epsom and Ewell) (LD)]

Tomorrow marks 1,000 days since the illegal invasion of Ukraine. With the incoming White House Administration casting doubts on continued US support for Ukraine, I echo the calls heard across the House today urging the Minister to confirm that the Government plan to authorise the use of Storm Shadow missiles in Russia.

[John Healey]

I urge the hon. Lady to look back in the record at the answer that I have given two or three times already to this House.

[Alan Strickland (Newton Aycliffe and Spennymoor) (Lab)]

T4.   I thank the Secretary of State for Defence for his decisive action to safeguard the Octric semiconductor factory in Newton Aycliffe in my constituency, protecting jobs and, crucially, the sovereign supply of this vital defence component. Will my right hon. Friend meet with me to discuss how we can expand the jobs, apprenticeships and opportunities at this fantastic high-tech facility?

--- Later in debate ---

[David Reed (Exmouth and Exeter East) (Con)]

T8.   Could I ask for a progress update on the recruitment for a national armaments director, the creation of a military strategic headquarters, and the release of the defence industrial strategy, and crucially, will they all be in place and established in time to contribute to the recommendations of the strategic defence review?

[John Healey]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his position as parliamentary private secretary to the shadow Defence team—it is good to see him asking questions. The short answer is yes.

[Blair McDougall (East Renfrewshire) (Lab)]

T6. As we meet today, EU Foreign Ministers are reportedly discussing that Chinese manufacturing is now providing drones to the Russian war machine, specifically drones made in Xinjiang. Does that not further the need for Europe to deepen its own defence industrial base, and specifically, should we be securing an administrative arrangement with the European Defence Agency to that end?

[John Healey]

It is certainly true that we need to rebuild relations with important European allies, and that we need to do more collaboratively on big programmes. That is at the heart of the UK-German defence agreement that we have already signed as a new Government. We have also said that we will set out to strike a UK-EU security agreement, and aspects of that may be relevant.

[Robbie Moore (Keighley and Ilkley) (Con)]

Many veterans who I have spoken to recently are deeply concerned about the Government’s decision to remove the role of Veterans Minister from Cabinet. Will the Secretary of State explain how he will ensure veterans get the attention from Government that they rightly deserve?

[John Healey]

Veterans have a fully fledged Cabinet Minister speaking up for them. I am proud to do so as the Secretary of State for Defence.

[Andrew Pakes (Peterborough) (Lab)]

T7. Groups such as Light Project Peterborough do vital work to support homeless veterans, but as we know, demand has risen in recent years. Will the Minister welcome and congratulate groups such as Light Project and outline what steps he is taking to ensure support for veterans facing homelessness this winter?

[Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)]

The Secretary of State said a moment ago that the UK is working on a potential UK-EU security agreement. Might that include involvement in the European Peace Facility, which procures ammunition jointly?

[John Healey]

Discussions are at an early stage. At present, I am more concerned about the action we can take immediately, which is why I have given my first priority to building relations with key European allies. When I can, I will consolidate those relations in formal agreements, which we already have with Germany.

[Peter Swallow (Bracknell) (Lab)]

T9. As the MP for Sandhurst as well as Bracknell, I am delighted that the first intake of recruits to the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst since the general election has hit 101% of its target, despite the wider retention and recruitment crisis. Will the Minister join me in welcoming all the 2024 recruits to my constituency?

--- Later in debate ---

[Louise Jones (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

I served in Germany for two years as part of NATO’s very high readiness joint task force, and I welcome the improved co-operation with that nation. I also saw at first hand the importance of our relationship with Poland. Can the Secretary of State tell me what we are doing to improve co-operation with that nation?

[John Healey]

I can indeed. Poland was one of the first countries that I visited as the new Defence Secretary. I was keen to establish a good relationship with my Polish counterpart and have done so. There is a good deal that we will do in future and are already doing, both military to military and with our defence industries.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

On Friday, the UK Defence Journal reported on the activities of the Russian research and intelligence vessel Yantar in the Irish sea, in the vicinity of various cables. This is not new; we had the same thing last year in the North sea and off Shetland. Given the sheer quantity of cables and pipelines now in the seabed, what are the Government doing to ensure that that critical national infrastructure is properly protected?

[Damien Egan (Bristol North East) (Lab)]

With our domestic air defences under increased scrutiny, will the Secretary of State update us on the work being done to strengthen them and give assurances that our Government understand that our forces will need the resources available to secure our skies?

[John Healey]

This is one of the areas that the strategic defence review is looking at closely: it has set up 26 review and challenge panels and is drawing in almost 150 external experts from the whole range of defence. With rising threats at this point, this is part of the long, hard look we have to take at the capabilities we need in order to keep Britain safe in future and to be strong abroad.

[Dave Doogan (Angus and Perthshire Glens) (SNP)]

The Secretary of State speaks to a UK commitment to “NATO first”, and that is great, but we have just seen the election of a US President who is putting America first and the defence of Europe in the hands of European states, which makes the prevarication over 2.5% all the more difficult. Will he accept that a commitment without a date is watery and that only a date will provide a commitment? Will it be in this Parliament—yes or no?

[John Healey]

I do not accept that for a moment. It is a commitment and a level of defence spending that we have not seen for 15 years. As far as the new President goes, it is early days—he has only just been elected—and we will ensure that as a Government and as a country we work closely with him and with the US.

[Harpreet Uppal (Huddersfield) (Lab)]

As world leaders meet this week at the G20 in Brazil, what steps is the Defence Secretary taking with his international counterparts —other Defence Secretaries at the G20, in particular—about the urgent situation in Gaza, particularly for civilians and children?

[John Healey]

My hon. Friend is right. For nearly nine months—in opposition and now in government—we have been calling for and working for a ceasefire in Gaza to get all hostages released and, importantly, to flood the area with the aid that the Palestinians so desperately need. That has to be the first step towards a political solution that can see a Palestinian state and security both for Israel and for the Palestinians in future.

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

In the UK we have some very special skills when it comes to developing future defence equipment. To lose those skills would be a desperate business. Does the Secretary of State agree that co-operating and working with our friends in Europe is one way to preserve them?

Defence: 2.5% GDP Spending Commitment

John Healey Excerpts

Monday 11th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on his commitment to spend 2.5% of GDP on defence.

[The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)]

I congratulate the shadow Defence Secretary on securing the first Defence urgent question of the new Parliament. Previous Defence Secretaries answered just two urgent questions in the whole of the last five years. Although I cannot promise to answer every future UQ, I wanted to answer the hon. Gentleman’s first one today to underline just how seriously I take our Department’s responsibility to report to this House.

The Government have a cast-iron commitment to spending 2.5% of GDP on defence. We promised it in our manifesto at the election, the Prime Minister promised it at NATO in Washington in July, and my right hon. Friend the Chancellor promised it in the Budget two weeks ago, as well as announcing a £3 billion boost for defence spending next year to start to fix the foundations for our armed forces. That, of course, is on top of £3 billion each year for Ukraine. I remind the House that the last time this country spent 2.5% of GDP on defence was in 2010, with the last Labour Government—a level not matched in any of the 14 Tory years since.

Everyone agrees that defence spending must increase to match and deal with the threats we face. One of our very first acts as a Government was to launch the strategic defence review, which is working at pace to look at the threats we face, the capabilities we need and the resources we have available. It is not just about how much we spend, but about how we spend it. The Prime Minister said at NATO that our plan in the SDR will come first, and then we will set out the pathway to spending 2.5%; the Chief Secretary to the Treasury said yesterday that this will come in the spring.

Today is Armistice Day. At the eleventh hour, I had the honour of laying a wreath at the Cenotaph. Today is a reminder of what is at stake in this new era of insecurity; a reminder that our dedicated servicemen and women, around the clock, around the world, work to keep us safe; and a reminder of the ultimate sacrifice that so many have made in the past so that we may live in freedom today. We will remember them.

[James Cartlidge]

Thank you for granting this urgent question, Mr Speaker, especially on Armistice Day. I am grateful for the Secretary of State’s response, but he keeps going back to 2010 when we spent 2.5%. That is true, but he says it without adding the fact that his Government had bankrupted the country. In fact, I asked the House of Commons Library about this. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has confirmed that if Labour had returned to government, it was planning cuts to the defence budget of 20% to 25%.

But this question is about today. The threat picture is far graver than it has been for many generations, as the Chief of the Defence Staff confirmed at the weekend. As the Secretary of State says, the Labour party committed in its general election manifesto to a

“path to spending 2.5 per cent of GDP on defence.”

The Prime Minister said shortly after taking office that it was “cast iron”, which the Secretary of State has repeated today.

With President Trump’s election victory, there will inevitably be a greater focus on what more European NATO members can do to boost Europe’s own defence, but yesterday the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and this morning the Secretary of State himself were unable to say whether the Government would deliver on 2.5% in the current Parliament. In addition, yesterday The Sunday Times reported that Defence Equipment and Support in Abbey Wood has effectively been instructed to avoid any new procurement at all for the rest of this financial year.

Spending 2.5% is not an end in itself. The key reason that in April we set out a fully funded multi-year pathway to 2.5% was to enable the Ministry of Defence to procure, at pace and at scale, the munitions that we need to urgently replenish our stocks to warfighting levels. With the whole world wanting to buy more munitions, we cannot afford to delay any further.

I have key questions for the Secretary of State, because at the same time we are having this debate, there are a whole load of new burdens coming for the MOD which it will have to cover. In which financial year does he expect the share of GDP spent on defence to start rising significantly, and will he guarantee to hit 2.5% in this Parliament—yes or no? Not including existing programmes, is it true that there is a freeze on new procurement of defence equipment and support for the rest of this financial year? Will the MOD be 100% compensated by the Treasury for higher employer national insurance contributions and for the cost of increasing continuity of education allowance, and will service families be 100% compensated for the extra VAT on school fees? Penultimately, on Armistice Day can the Secretary of State absolutely rule out surviving spouses of service personnel being taxed on death in service benefits? Finally, on the Chagos islands, in the Department’s written answer to me it refused to say how much the MOD will contribute to renting back our own military base, so this is a very simple question: the Secretary of State will not tell us how much it is going to cost, but does he know how much it is going to cost?

[Mr Speaker]

Please remember that when I grant urgent questions, the time each person has is limited. It is two minutes for the main Opposition party and one minute for the other Opposition party.

[John Healey]

Fourteen years the Conservative Government had to increase defence spending to 2.5% of GDP, and there was not a plan or a pathway from the last Government, as the shadow Defence Secretary tries to claim. It was a political ploy that was announced four weeks before they called the general election. It was unfunded, and it was a con on the armed forces and on the British people, who gave their answer emphatically by sweeping away Tory MPs in many of the proudest military communities and constituencies across the country.

On the shadow Defence Secretary’s accusations about a total spending freeze, I am putting in place a grip on the out-of-control spending that the last Government left. We are securing value for money, we are cutting waste and we are getting a grip on defence spending in a way his Government did not.

We greatly value the continuity of education allowance and greatly recognise the role it plays in helping avoid disruption to the education of the children of serving personnel. In line with how the allowance operates, we will continue to pay up to 90% of private school fees following the VAT increase in January. By uprating the cap, we will take account of any increase in spending.

On the Chagos islands, of course I know the details because I was heavily involved in the negotiations. This secures Britain’s military base, and it secures a military base for our US allies, which is why they welcomed it so strongly. I have said to the shadow Secretary of State and to the House that when it debates the treaty, this House will have the full information.

Nobody knows better the defence inheritance that 14 years of Conservative government have left us for the past four months than the shadow Defence Secretary: he was a Defence Minister at the heart of the problems, with billion-pound black holes, service morale at record lows, and a crisis in the recruitment and retention of personnel. Never again must a Government leave our armed forces in a worse state than they found them, and this new Government will make this country more secure at home and strong abroad.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Chair of the Select Committee.

[Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)]

We live in an increasingly dangerous and volatile world, with hundreds of thousands of people dying or being injured on our own continent in Ukraine, and wars and conflicts raging in the middle east, Africa and beyond, not to mention the increased nefarious activity in the grey zone. Without a shadow of a doubt, we are dealing with exceptional circumstances and we need to grasp the gravity of the situation. I have a great deal of time and respect for the Secretary of State because I know that he gets it, but do others in government understand the gravity of the situation, because we need clarity? We need a timetable so that not only our allies, but those in our defence community, know where we are heading.

[John Healey]

Yes, they do. Everyone agrees that defence spending must increase, and it is increasing under this Government. It increased in the first Budget of this new Government by nearly £3 billion for next year. Alongside that is the cast-iron commitment that we are a Government who will set a path to spending 2.5% of GDP on defence.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Lib Dem spokesperson.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Healey]

We do not need a summit to release the interest on the frozen assets—the corrupt Russian money—as we are doing that already. The Chancellor and I are working closely on that, and we have announced that, from early next year, £2.3 billion will be available for Ukraine for that purpose. I give the hon. Lady the assurance that we will pursue a UK-EU security pact, alongside the deep bilateral agreements we have already started to strike, including the one last month with Germany, which was the most comprehensive defence agreement this country has signed in many years. Finally, the hon. Lady is right—I have argued this before—that at a time of increasing global threats, European nations in NATO must do more of the heavy lifting. We must be prepared to spend more on defence, but we must also be prepared to work together to increase the level of deterrence we can offer to those who would do us harm.

[Dan Carden (Liverpool Walton) (Lab)]

Was President Trump not right in his first term, when he pushed NATO countries to increase defence spending? The numbers have gone from six countries meeting the 2% target back in 2021, up to 23 countries meeting the target now. Is this not serious, because if President Trump makes decisions on Ukraine in his second term, we might be faced with a choice either to accept those decisions or to step up and ensure Europe’s defence ourselves?

[John Healey]

I welcome the fact that 23 NATO nations will hit the 2% spend this year. I regard that as a floor, not a ceiling. The UK, under Governments of both parties, has always spent well above and set the pace for other European countries. We will continue to do that, because European countries in NATO must take on more of the NATO leadership. We are determined that the UK will do that, which is why we have said that our approach to defence will be a NATO-first policy. We will, wherever we can, look to be first in NATO, so that we set the pace on the sort of transformation to the better equipped, better able and more lethal forces that our nations need to deter adversaries and to defend ourselves if required.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

The Secretary of State is right that we used to spend a lot more than 2%: in the 1980s we spent between 4.5% and 5.1% of GDP on defence. Does he share my concern at what I heard on the radio this morning, when a Labour politician in another place was saying that he could see an outcome in Ukraine whereby Russia gets to keep the territory it has occupied, while Ukraine does not get any guarantee of joining NATO but merely some more security assurances? We know what happened last time with the security assurances previously given. Does the Secretary of State agree that, whether we spend 2.5% on defence now or in the near future, it is important that whoever we send to Washington does not capitulate in advance?

[John Healey]

The right hon. Gentleman made the important point, implicitly in his question, that it is the Ukrainians who are fighting and the Ukrainians who will make the call about whether to talk and on what terms. Our task, as one of the leading supporters of Ukraine and its fight for sovereignty, freedom and its own future, is to support it and to step up our support for its fight, and then to step up our support, if necessary and whenever required, in any negotiations, as well as to play our part, as we have made the commitment to do, in providing any security guarantees for the longer term.

[Ms Marie Rimmer (St Helens South and Whiston) (Lab)]

Russia has gone to war in Europe, starting in Ukraine. It was America and Britain that saved Europe in the last war; it looks like this will be the same. Europe simply must step up. What discussions has the Secretary of State had with Lloyd Austin about America’s role in the way forward?

[John Healey]

To be quite honest with my hon. Friend, it is a little early to have discussions with America. It is less than a week since the presidential elections and the current Administration have more than two months to go. As she would expect, I am in detailed discussions with the current Administration and my counterpart there, in particular about how we together, as two of Ukraine’s leading allies, can step up our support over the couple of months ahead.

In the future, I expect a President Trump-led Administration to recognise that it is in America’s interests, NATO’s interests and the interests of all countries that believe in the international rules-based order and a stable and secure peace that Putin does not prevail, because if large countries like Russia are able to redraw international boundaries by force, that sends a signal that undermines the security of all nations. If reports are right that President Trump has already spoken to President Putin and warned him against the escalation that we see from Russia in Ukraine, that is a good first step and early sign.

[Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman knows that I have the highest respect for him, even if we have occasionally clashed across the Floor. I ask him this simple question. In China today, one shipyard building naval vessels is out-building the whole of the United States’ naval capability—and it has many hundreds. Given that, and the threat from Russia, Iran and this totalitarian state axis, if Lord Robertson comes back and spells out exactly what I believe he will—that this is the biggest threat we have faced since the cold war—will the right hon. Gentleman not ask but tell the Prime Minister that the No. 1 responsibility is the defence of the realm, with 2.5% now?

[John Healey]

The Prime Minister does not need me to tell him that the first duty of any Government and of this Government is to defend the country and keep our citizens safe. He will not need me for that because he commissioned the strategic defence review; my job is to oversee it successfully. He will not need any persuading of the arguments, assessments of threats and capability recommendations that that strategic defence review, externally led by Lord Robertson, is likely to produce.

[Mr Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right not to give a scintilla of credibility to the idea that the Conservative party, having spent 14 years never reaching 2.5%, would do that if only it had one more chance. He is also right that what is important is not just identifying more money for defence spending but making sure that we start spending it better. Can he say any more about what he is doing to ensure that the huge wastage in defence procurement that we saw under the Conservatives is brought into hand under his stewardship?

[John Healey]

I am almost tempted to encourage the shadow Defence Secretary to answer that question, because he was Minister for Defence Procurement until four months ago, so he is principally responsible, for instance, for the fact that only two of the 49 largest defence projects are on time and on budget. He failed to fix what the Public Accounts Committee of this House—an all-party Committee—termed the “broken” procurement system that has been failing our forces and failing British taxpayers. This is a deep task of reform. It is not a glamourous task, but I have made it one of my first priorities as Defence Secretary.

[Mike Martin (Tunbridge Wells) (LD)]

Is the UK able to provide an armoured division to NATO on an enduring basis?

[John Healey]

The armed forces will always respond to the requirements placed on them. We will always seek to fulfil our NATO obligations. One reason why I conducted a NATO test in the first 100 days is that I was concerned that part of the failures of the last 14 years had led to our falling short. That is part of the inheritance that we take on as a new Government. My determination as Defence Secretary is that we make our forces fitter to fight and better able to deter and to play a leading part in NATO, as it steps up our level of deterrence and defence across the 32 nations.

[Johanna Baxter (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (Lab)]

Today, on Armistice Day, we honour those who have served, those who have fought and those who have made the ultimate sacrifice to protect the freedoms we enjoy. Does the Secretary of State agree that today and every day we must remember everything that our armed forces are doing to keep us safe? Will he come to my constituency to meet Sight Scotland Veterans, an incredible charity that provides amazing support to all our visually impaired veterans?

[John Healey]

At the risk of upsetting my diary secretary, I welcome the opportunity to visit my hon. Friend’s constituency and her local veterans group. She is right that, today of all days, we remember not just those who gave their lives for the way of life we enjoy today but the serving personnel—the men and women in our armed forces around the world. We currently have 10,000 personnel on operations in 50 different countries around the world. This is a reminder of their work day in, day out to keep us all safe.

[Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

Let me assure the Secretary of State that those of us who have followed the defence debate over the last 10, 20 or even 30 years know that he takes these matters extremely seriously and understands the scale of the challenge that we face. In that vein, I encourage him to start telling the truth: that we will have to spend far more than 2.5% of GDP on defence within quite a short number of years. A former Chief of the General Staff has warned that this country might be directly at war within the lifetime of this Parliament. May I suggest that the Secretary of State use his friends throughout this House to influence both his Government and the Treasury influences on the Conservative side, because we are going to have to bust a gut for a major rearmament programme that we have not seen in this country since the 1930s?

[John Healey]

The hon. Gentleman has been consistent in his arguments, and I welcome his contribution. The Treasury will have noted it, and will probably take it as an early representation for the next Budget. In the meantime, I will ensure that the strategic defence review starts with the threats that we face: war in Europe, conflict in the middle east and growing threats globally, as well as Russian aggression more widely beyond Ukraine. We will ensure that we are able to match the capabilities that we develop with the threats that we face, and we will do so within the resources that we have available.

[Tim Roca (Macclesfield) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr Perkins) made the important point that the new Government inherited £167 billion-worth of projects, none of which were rated green by the National Audit Office. Does the Secretary of State agree that more money is one part of the equation, but spending it well is the other part?

[John Healey]

Indeed; that is one reason why, early doors in Washington, the Prime Minister not only reaffirmed our iron-clad commitment to increasing defence spending to 2.5% but said that the strategic defence review comes first, as a pathway to 2.5%. That is exactly so that we can ensure that we increase what we spend, but also spend it better.

[Dame Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

In 2023, I asked the Secretary of State’s colleague, the right hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson), who is now the Education Secretary, how Labour’s plans for VAT on school fees would impact the continuity of education allowance for forces families. I was told that I

“need not be concerned about what we are discussing today.”—[Official Report, 11 January 2023; Vol. 725, c. 570.]

It is two years on and VAT on school fees goes live in January, but details of the rates of continuity of education allowance still have not been articulated to the forces families in my constituency. As the proud MP for a military constituency, I can tell the Secretary of State that I am concerned and my constituents are concerned. What is the plan to better communicate with them?

[John Healey]

I am sorry that our confirmation of the steps we are taking from January has not reached the hon. Lady. I will ensure that they are. There will be an uprating in the continuity of education allowance, which will ensure that our armed forces who take advantage of the allowance will be able to get up to 90% of the school fees they have to pay covered by that allowance, and that that takes into account any rise in school fees as a result of the VAT being levied.

[Andrew Lewin (Welwyn Hatfield) (Lab)]

The shadow Secretary of State referenced his so-called plan for defence spending back in April this year, a plan that the Institute for Government said did “not add up” and was “fictitious”. Does my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State agree that under this Labour Government we will never make funding commitments to our armed forces unless they are fully funded?

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[John Healey]

I do. My hon. Friend is right. The Institute for Fiscal Studies described that so-called plan, the election pitch four weeks before the Conservatives called the election, as “misleading” and an empty promise. I give the House the undertaking that the plans we put in place will be openly discussed in this House. We will ensure that we can match the resources available to our plans.

[Graham Leadbitter (Moray West, Nairn and Strathspey) (SNP)]

Defence professionals across Whitehall will have their heads in their hands at this Government’s commitment to 2.5% at some point and when fiscal conditions permit. To fail to commit on defence investment with the multiple security threats facing us, from the Ukraine war to the middle east and a plethora of global cyber-threats, is strategically illiterate. Those threats will not wait for the Chancellor to get a grip, so what urgent steps will the Secretary of State take with the Chancellor to ensure at least the 2.5% promised by the Labour party on defence is spent when the threat assessment demands it, which is now, and not when the Chancellor feels it to be convenient?

[John Healey]

Mr Speaker, I am going to take what I can from the hon. Gentleman, which is an SNP welcome and an urging for an increase in defence spending. That will happen under a Labour Government. The Scottish workforce, the Scottish military and the Scottish-based military will play an important part in the defence of this country in the future.

[Kevin Bonavia (Stevenage) (Lab)]

We have heard some chutzpah from the shadow Secretary of State for Defence today. The Conservatives had 14 years to get to 2.5%, yet they demand it from us now. I am very pleased that the Secretary of State has set out how we will get towards 2.5% after our strategic defence review, but in the meantime we have to clear up the mess the previous Government left behind. Can he assure the House that he and his colleagues are working to clear up the waste and mismanagement they found when they came to the Ministry of Defence?

[John Healey]

I can indeed. It was one of my predecessors as Defence Secretary who admitted to this House that under 14 years of the previous Government the armed forces had been “hollowed out and underfunded”. That is no surprise when we look at the record of the Conservative Government when they came into office in 2010, compared with the record of this Government. Our first Budget has a £3 billion boost to defence. Their first Budget had a £2 billion real-terms cut. Our manifesto had a commitment to increase defence spending to 2.5%. Their first five years in government saw an 18% real cut in defence spending, which laid the foundations for the degradation and the poor state of our armed forces, and the poor state of the finances that we have now inherited.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

The last Government extended to state school pupils the undoubted advantage of the combined cadet forces, which had been the almost exclusive prerogative of private school students. Why, then—

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[Dr Murrison]

Why, then, Mr Speaker, did this Government decide, last week of all weeks, to defund combined cadet forces and thus remove the advantages that state school pupils are now enjoying as a result of decisions taken by the last Government?

[John Healey]

I simply do not recognise the right hon. Gentleman’s description of any decisions that we have taken, and it would run contrary to what he and I agree is the value of combined cadet forces. Most of us, in our constituencies, have contact and working relations with good cadet forces that give young people opportunities that they simply would not have at school or in any other walk of life. They have an important part to play in the future of individuals, and also in the wider understanding of our armed forces.

[Gregor Poynton (Livingston) (Lab)]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s recent announcement of the Armed Forces Commissioner Bill—a promise made and a promise being kept—but does he agree that this is just one part of the puzzle when it comes to showing that we can support our troops as they work to keep us safe?

[John Healey]

Indeed I do. My hon. Friend is a strong champion in his constituency in Scotland for the armed forces and veterans. I greatly valued the visit that I was able to make with him before the election to talk to veterans in his constituency and talk about our plans to increase support in respect of employment, mental health and housing for the future.

[Suella Braverman (Fareham and Waterlooville) (Con)]

One of the big achievements of the last 14 years was the delivery of the aircraft carriers, both of which are stationed in Portsmouth, near my constituency. However, it remains clear that they are underpowered. We need more Type 45s, more Type 26s and more Type 31s. If the Government are serious about the 2.5%, when will they set out their plan to invest in our Royal Navy and, in particular, our aircraft carriers, so that our carrier strike group can provide a world-class capability?

[John Healey]

The aircraft carriers constitute an important defence programme. We are considering the threats that we face and the future capabilities that we need as part of the strategic defence review, which will report in the spring, and we will follow that within our clear path and our commitment to spending 2.5% of GDP on defence, just as the Chief Secretary to the Treasury told the media yesterday.

[Peter Swallow (Bracknell) (Lab)]

Today is Armistice Day, which provides an important moment in which to pause and remember the huge amount that our armed forces have done to keep us safe. On this day, does the Secretary of State agree that we must not only set out our ironclad commitment to 2.5%, but support the armed forces, their families and our veterans?

[John Healey]

Indeed. The forces families who support those who put on the uniform are too often overlooked, which is one reason why we introduced legislation last week for an independent armed forces commissioner, as we promised to do at the election. The holder of this post will report directly to Parliament, will have access to personnel, sites and information, and will be able to look into the concerns of not just those who serve but the families who support them, in order to improve service life for the future.

[John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)]

May I commend to the Secretary of State the role of Ploughshare, which is used to deal with the increasing commercialisation of opportunities at the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory at Porton Down, in my constituency? In the context of the Ministry’s holistic review, which is now under way, will he undertake to ensure that that organisation is not held back from extending its opportunities to commercialise assets emerging from MOD research?

[John Healey]

One of the weaknesses in our system is that the often-excellent innovation, research and development does not get developed, invested in or commercialised, so potentially brilliant small companies do not grow and expand. I have to say to the right hon. Gentleman that I am not familiar with Planshare—[Interruption.] Ploughshare. I did not even hear the name correctly. If the right hon. Gentleman would like to write to me with some details, I would welcome his letter and certainly have a look.

[Graeme Downie (Dunfermline and Dollar) (Lab)]

Like others on this side of the House, I welcome the increase in defence spending that was announced in the Budget, after years of Tory cuts to our armed forces. Does the Secretary of State agree that we need to increase defence spending in response to emerging threats around the world, from Ukraine to the middle east and Asia-Pacific, and that the figure of 2.5% should be kept under review in the light of changing events around the world?

[John Healey]

Yes, I do. My hon. Friend makes the important point that the starting point for any defence planning must be the threats that we face. At the heart of any defence plans must be the people who serve and on whom we depend. I make that heartfelt point particularly forcefully today, on Armistice Day.

[Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)]

In 2021, when Boris Johnson was Prime Minister, defence spending in the UK was 2.3% of GDP. In 2022, following Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, defence spending was 2.3% of GDP. Now that an isolationist President-elect is about to go into the White House, defence spending is 2.3% of GDP. When will defence spending rise beyond 2.3% of GDP?

[John Healey]

I am not sure that I heard the hon. Gentleman welcome the fact that this Government have made a commitment to set a path to increase defence spending to 2.5% of GDP—a level that we have not had in this country for the last 14 years. Everyone agrees that an increase in defence spending is needed, and it is needed in order to deal with precisely the increasing threats that he cites.

[Mr Mark Sewards (Leeds South West and Morley) (Lab)]

I welcome the Opposition’s new-found enthusiasm for meeting the 2.5% defence spending target, especially given that they were not able to meet it even once in 14 years. I gently remind them that the last party in decades to meet the target was the Labour party. Does the Secretary of State agree that not only do we need to increase our spending to 2.5% of GDP, but we must remain steadfast in our support for the people of Ukraine to protect the entire continent of Europe?

[John Healey]

I do agree. I pay tribute to the last Government for ensuring that the UK led in providing support for Ukraine. As a new Government, we have been determined to continue that over the last four months. We have stepped up the military aid that we are supplying to Ukraine. We have sped up that support in a way that President Zelensky now cites as a model for other countries, and we are now spending more on military aid to Ukraine than ever before—£3 billion this year, next year and every year for as long as it takes, plus the £2.3 billion that we will be able to release from the frozen assets seized from the corrupt regime of Putin’s Russia.

[Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)]

I would urge the Secretary of State to exercise a little bit of caution when referring to defence spending under the last Labour Government. As someone who served in Iraq and Afghanistan, and who used some of the kit and equipment that was issued then, I know that there were some serious concerns at the time, particularly around the Snatch Land Rovers, for example. I spent a lot of time driving around Basra in one of those, and a lot of people lost their lives in those vehicles, so I would exercise a little caution and restraint.

My question is on a different topic: the CEA. How much will meeting the additional cost of VAT cost the MOD from its own budget?

[John Healey]

We will publish the financial figures for the CEA in due course and in the normal way.

On the hon. Gentleman’s previous point, I am very conscious of what he and those who served in Afghanistan and Iraq faced. I am very conscious that at times during the last Labour Government, as with any Government, the kit and equipment was lacking. That is why we tried to replace the vehicles, using urgent operational requirements at the time. Although we inevitably fell short in some areas, we were spending 2.5% of GDP on defence in 2010, when we were last in government, and the strength of the full-time British Army was over 100,000 soldiers.

[John Slinger (Rugby) (Lab)]

I associate myself with the comments of hon. and right hon. Members about Armistice Day. During the previous Government, the size of our armed forces shrank from 192,000 to 138,000—a 28% decrease. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it will take this Labour Government to put our defences back on the firm footing that we need in an increasingly dangerous world after many years of underinvestment?

[John Healey]

My hon. Friend is right. He is pointing to armed forces numbers and to the heart of a deep, long-running problem: the crisis in recruitment and retention in our forces. Recruitment targets were set every year for 14 years and missed every year for 14 years. We are taking steps to start to deal with this, including through the largest pay rise for our armed forces for over 20 years, so that I can now stand here as the first Defence Secretary to be able to say that all those in uniform are now being paid at least the national living wage. The introduction of an independent armed forces commissioner to improve service life will start to reset the nation’s contract with those who serve and the families that support them.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Ind)]

Last year, global arms expenditure reached $2.4 trillion, the highest level since the end of the cold war. UK arms expenditure went up, and it will no doubt go up a lot more because of the statement that the Secretary of State has made today. He rightly mentioned the conflict in Ukraine and the conflict in Gaza, and I think he could have mentioned Sudan as well. What actions are he and his Government taking to try to bring about a cessation of those conflicts and of global tension to allow defence expenditure to be reduced globally so that some of that money can be used to deal with the serious environmental and inequality issues that face this planet?

[John Healey]

We cannot wish away the threats, and we cannot wish away the conflicts, which is why it behoves any Government to ensure that we have the armed forces that are capable and equipped to deter those who would do us harm. On the question of conflicts, our support for Ukraine is steadfast. That conflict could be ended today if Putin withdrew from his illegal invasion of that sovereign country. On the middle east, we have argued and worked—in opposition and now in government—for a ceasefire in Gaza that would allow the immediate release of all hostages and the necessary flooding of humanitarian aid to Palestinian civilians. That is a first step towards a political process that must be directed towards a two-state solution, which is the only guarantee of long-term peace and security in that region.

[Alistair Strathern (Hitchin) (Lab)]

I had the privilege of starting my day in Shefford, just up the road from the Chicksands base in my constituency, marking Armistice Day with local veterans and the wider community. I welcome today’s commitment to ensure that we finally have a credible plan to get to spending 2.5% of GDP on defence, but as the Secretary of State has set out, it is about not just what we spend but how we spend it. The last Government spent millions on armed forces accommodation but all too often left the forces in my constituency in shocking situations. Will this Government be different in ensuring that our armed services can finally access the quality of accommodation they deserve on local bases?

[John Healey]

My hon. Friend is right. Time and again surveys of armed forces personnel show that poor-quality housing, which would be intolerable in civilian life, is cited as a reason for low morale and an intention to leave the forces early. This is an underlying problem that we will fix. We will not be able to do that overnight but we are determined that we will provide the accommodation and housing that our heroes in uniform have a right to expect.

[David Reed (Exmouth and Exeter East) (Con)]

I completely agree with the Defence Secretary that defence spending must increase to meet the threats we face. Given that the threats are visible and increasing, I found myself nodding in agreement with Admiral Lord West’s recent Guardian article, in which he said we should be bold and move directly to spending 3% of GDP on defence. Does the Defence Secretary agree with his revered Labour colleague’s assertion? If not, why not?

--- Later in debate ---

[John Healey]

In our first Budget, we increased next year’s defence spending by nearly £3 billion. We have a cast-iron commitment to increasing defence spending to 2.5% of GDP—a level that, over the past 14 years, Conservative Governments simply never matched.

[Martin Wrigley (Newton Abbot) (LD)]

The Secretary of State rightly refers to R&D spending and small firms, yet small firms in my constituency tell me that spending has dried up. Can he assure me that this is just a blip and that normal flow will resume as soon as possible?

[John Healey]

I think the shadow Secretary of State will agree that one of the necessary reforms to our procurement system, especially in an era in which innovation and technological development will be at an increasing premium, is to do much more to support small and innovative firms, perhaps including some in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. We have to reform our procurement system to ensure that happens, and we will.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his answers to all the questions.

I seek an assurance that our spending will focus not only on cyber-security, which is obviously essential, but on recruitment and retention. That spending must take account of the fact that, in April 2024, the Army fell below its target size for the first time since it was set, meaning that all three service branches are currently below target—the Army by 1%, the Royal Navy and the Royal Marines by 5%, and the RAF by 10%. Overall, the UK armed forces were 5,440 personnel, or 1%, below target. We need an assurance on recruitment.

[John Healey]

The hon. Gentleman sets out some of the details and dimensions of the crisis we face in recruitment and retention. We will start to turn that around, but we will not be able to do so straightaway. We have made a start with proper, fully funded pay awards for our armed forces this year. We are also making a start with new legislation to set up an armed forces commissioner to improve service life. We will take further steps to renew the nation’s contract on the support we can offer to those who serve and the families who support them.

Defence Nuclear Enterprise

John Healey Excerpts

Wednesday 6th November 2024 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)]

The UK is exploring options to re-establish a nuclear fuel cycle for reactor fuel for defence purposes. The Government are committed to modernising defence nuclear fuel production under the Defence Nuclear Enterprise. We are commencing engagement with industry to develop options for how this requirement can be delivered.

The UK takes its nuclear responsibilities and obligations seriously. This fuel production cycle will be fully consistent with the UK’s international obligations, including the treaty on the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons. It will also be fully consistent with the UK’s voluntary moratorium, established in 1995, on the production of fissile material for nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices.

The UK will continue to maintain the highest standards of safeguarding of civil nuclear materials, ensuring a separation from defence materials and complying with our obligations under the UK’s voluntary offer agreement with the International Atomic Energy Agency.

[HCWS193]

Remembrance and Veterans

John Healey Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered remembrance and the contribution of veterans.

This is the first time in four years that the House has held a general debate on remembrance. Back then, I responded for the Opposition. It is a huge honour for me to open this debate as Secretary of State for Defence and, in that role, to be the voice of veterans in the Cabinet. I am proud to have my ministerial team here with me, particularly the Minister for Veterans and People, my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Selly Oak (Al Carns), who will wind up this debate.

Given the number of colleagues from all parts of the House who have put in to speak in this debate, I wish to keep my remarks brief, so that we can hear from others. It is striking how many colleagues on the call list, of all parties, have served in our UK armed forces; many were elected for the first time in July, and I welcome them all to this debate. That underlines the deep affinity between the House and our nation’s armed forces. Whether or not we have served, we in this House have the interests of our armed forces at heart; but we may debate, forcefully at times, the state of our armed forces and how best to use them. That matters to those who put on the uniform and accept a duty to give unlimited service to our nation, ready to do anything, at any time, anywhere, if this House and His Majesty’s Government will it.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

During the troubles in Northern Ireland, hundreds of thousands of British servicemen served on Operation Banner. Hundreds were killed and thousands were maimed by both republican and loyalist bombs. I respect the right hon. Gentleman, but how can his Government repeal the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023 and throw many of those veterans to the wolves in order to pander to Sinn Féin? What is noble about that?

[John Healey]

The legacy Act is without supporters in the communities in Northern Ireland, on any side. That is one of the reasons why it should be repealed. In the process of repeal, we will take fully into account the concerns and position of veterans, who have given such service, as the right hon. Gentleman rightly says, and their families.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

I am grateful to the Defence Secretary for giving way; he is always very courteous. When I was on a previous iteration of the Defence Committee, we produced an in-depth report on the best way forward after the troubles, called “Drawing a line: Protecting veterans by a Statute of Limitations”. It recommended ending prosecutions and substituting a truth recovery process. People from, shall we say, some of the Northern Irish parties felt compelled to condemn it on the Floor of the House, but quietly came up to me afterwards and admitted that it was the only way forward. Just because there is this performative condemnation by different communities, he should not be diverted from the fact that what was good enough for Nelson Mandela in South Africa should be good enough for us.

[John Healey]

For me, one of the great strengths of the House and Parliament is the work of the all-party Select Committees. The right hon. Gentleman’s Committee, during that time, did the House and the wider cause of peace and reconciliation in Northern Ireland a service. We will take those points into account. I do not think that anybody could point their finger at the current Northern Ireland Secretary and say that he is not a serious figure, or that he could remotely be accused of performative politics. He will take very seriously his duty to lead the repeal of the legacy Act and find a way forward that takes everybody with us.

Remembrance Sunday is a moment when the nation comes together to honour those who have served, those who have fought and, above all, those who have made the ultimate sacrifice of their life to defend our country, preserve our freedoms and protect our way of life. To all those who serve and have served, on behalf of the country, I offer a profound thank you.

This will be the first time many new Members have the privilege of representing their constituency at remembrance parades, ceremonies and services. I encourage all to play their fullest part, and to go into their schools to join in the lessons and projects that will take place in the run-up to Remembrance Day, because remembrance is not just an opportunity to show our gratitude and pride; it is an opportunity to learn, and to teach the next generation about the service and sacrifice of those who came before. Given that the number of veterans in this country will fall by a third in this decade, it is clear that we need to do more at all levels to reinforce the country’s understanding of and commitment to our armed forces. That has never been more important than in the year in which we mark the 80th anniversary of D-day and many of the major battles that led to the end of the second world war. At the weekend, we marked a decade since the conclusion of UK combat operations in Afghanistan, and during this Remembrance we honour the 457 British service personnel who lost their life, the thousands who were wounded, and their families, who bore such a burden.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for his contribution. He is an honest and honourable person. This is on the subject of justice for those who served in uniform. I declare an interest, having served in the Ulster Defence Regiment for three years and in the Royal Artillery for 11 and a half years; that is 14 and a half years in total. My cousin was murdered on 10 December 1971. No one was ever made accountable for his murder. The IRA men who killed him ran across the border to the Republic of Ireland, to sanctuary and safety. No one was made accountable for the murder of four UDR men at Ballydugan on 9 April 1990. It grieves me greatly on their behalf to know that there are people still walking about who have never been made accountable in this world for what they have done. I want to see justice. Does the Minister want to see justice for those people as well?

--- Later in debate ---

[John Healey]

I had moved on to Afghanistan, but the hon. Gentleman, in his forceful way, makes his point, which is on the record.

I want to move on and use this remembrance period and this debate to pay tribute to the very special service charities that we have in the UK. They work, week in, week out, all year round, to raise funds, promote awareness and provide services to our armed forces and veterans.

[Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)]

rose—

[Ian Roome (North Devon) (LD)]

rose—

[John Healey]

I will give way one more time, and then conclude my speech, so that the House can hear from the many Members who wish to speak.

[Ian Roome]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for mentioning the good work of charities. My base in North Devon, Royal Marines Base Chivenor, and garrison commander Lieutenant Colonel Simpson are supportive of service charities, including the Royal Marines Association. Will the Secretary of State wish the Royal Marine Corps a happy birthday, as they celebrate their 360th birthday today?

[John Healey]

I am so glad that I gave way. I was going to leave that to my hon. Friend the Minister for Veterans and People, who I am sure will have something to say about that. To respond to the hon. Gentleman’s invitation, on behalf of the whole House, I say: what a remarkable service, and what a remarkable feat—360 years proud today. We honour those in that service, we wish them well in future, and say a big happy birthday.

At this time of year, we see the particular contribution of the Royal British Legion and the importance of its poppy appeal. Let us recognise the commitment of the hundreds of volunteers across the country who recruit the poppy sellers, organise the shifts, check the stock, account for the donations and encourage the public to give, and to wear poppies at this time of year with such pride. On behalf of us all, thank you.

These are serious times—war in Europe, conflict in the middle east, growing Russian aggression and increasing threats elsewhere. As the world becomes more dangerous, we will rely more heavily on the professionalism and courage of our armed forces. It is against that backdrop that the Government are committed to renewing the nation’s contract with those who serve. We have already been able to announce the largest pay increase for our forces for over 20 years, and I am the first Defence Secretary who can stand in the House and say that everyone in uniform in the UK armed forces will be paid at least the national living wage. That is why we announced, in our first King’s Speech, legislation to introduce an independent armed forces commissioner to improve service life for service personnel and their families.

[Tim Farron]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[John Healey]

I will, because the hon. Gentleman is particularly persistent. Despite his youthful looks, he has been in the House for some time.

[Tim Farron]

True enough, and I am sure I should know better.

Recruiting and retaining good people who will serve our country is made a little easier if they know that they will be cared for in the years after they leave active service. Will the Secretary of State say something about the importance of investing in mental health support for veterans, and in particular congratulate One Vision, the charity in my constituency that provides counselling support for the armed forces and all those in uniform, and does work to make sure that we value those people in the years after they have actively served us?

[John Healey]

I will indeed. The hon. Gentleman is right, of course. On support services for veterans who need them, there is not just what the Government can help provide—including, on mental health, through Op Courage—but what is provided by a network of first-class local charities. If One Vision plays a part in that in his area of Cumbria, I certainly pay tribute to it.

There is a more profound reason for our concern to provide support for our veterans. We need to recognise that those on deployment in the armed forces must have the confidence to act decisively on behalf of the nation, and they can be motivated and have their confidence reinforced by how they see the nation supporting veterans back home. That is why we pledged in our manifesto in July to improve access to support for our veterans, including on mental health, employment and housing. It is why we have committed to putting the armed forces covenant fully into law. It is why, within three months of taking office, we have delivered on the commitment to make the veteran’s identity card an accepted form of voter ID, and why the Prime Minister, in his first conference speech, announced that veterans would be exempt from rules requiring a connection to the area from those seeking to access housing there.

At the heart of our national security will always be the men and women who serve this country. As we consider this debate, we have an opportunity to reflect on what we mean by remembrance and to recognise the immense contribution made to this country by our veterans, by serving members of the armed forces and by the families who support them.

Hundreds of thousands have answered the nation’s call and given their lives in doing so. We honour them, and we will remember them.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

I call the shadow Minister.

UK-Germany Defence Co-operation Agreement

John Healey Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2024 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)]

Earlier today, together with my German counterpart Boris Pistorius, I signed an agreement on defence co-operation between the United Kingdom and Germany. The agreement will strengthen bilateral defence co-operation and will enhance our mutual security. It represents a significant milestone in the defence relationship between our two countries and underscores our shared commitment to maintaining peace and stability in Europe.

This defence agreement builds on the strong foundation of co-operation between the UK and Germany and reflects our shared values and strategic interests. It is a testament to the enduring partnership between our two nations and our commitment to working together to address common security challenges. The agreement will contribute to the security of the Euro-Atlantic region and will help to support the defence industries of both countries by enhancing co-operation in research and technology, and developing co-operative equipment programs. The agreement will also enhance bilateral interoperability between our armed forces, across all domains, and will support us in working together to strengthen standardisation in NATO.

The agreement will provide a comprehensive structure to ensure bilateral co-operation is managed in a holistic and systemic way; a new defence ministerial council will oversee co-operation across the whole of defence, providing greater strategic co-ordination across the breadth and depth of the relationship.

The defence agreement will see the UK and Germany work together systemically for years to come on a range of ground-breaking defence projects. We will jointly develop and procure extended deep precision strike capabilities to provide a conventional deterrent in Europe; focusing on developing new capabilities which far exceed the ranges of our current systems.

In the air domain, we will work jointly to develop and employ uncrewed aerial and offboard air systems, and enhance connectivity, to ensure interoperability between our respective future combat air systems. To enhance our co-operation on land, we will foster a deep industrial partnership between our defence industries and work to strengthen NATO by developing doctrine, uncrewed systems, and enabling capabilities, to transform our land forces.

We will enhance undersea co-operation between the UK and Germany in the north Atlantic and North sea, significantly contributing to the protection of critical undersea infrastructure and sea lines of communications. We will facilitate episodic deployments of German P-8A Poseidon Maritime Patrol Aircraft in the UK, and co-ordinate combined and joint anti-submarine warfare operations with ships, submarines, and aircraft.

The UK Government remain steadfast in their commitment to the defence of the United Kingdom and our allies; we are confident that this agreement will contribute to the security and prosperity of both our nations and the wider European region. We look forward to working closely with Germany to ensure its successful implementation.

This defence agreement will serve as the first pillar of a new comprehensive bilateral treaty, which is currently being negotiated with Germany by the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office and is due to be signed by early 2025.

A copy of the joint communiqué can be found on gov.uk here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-germany-trinity-house-agreement-on-defence.

[HCWS159]

Ukraine

John Healey Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Defence (John Healey)]

With your permission, Mr Speaker, I will make a statement on Ukraine. I apologise for the delay in getting you and Opposition Front Benchers a copy of my statement; the responsibility is entirely mine.

I have just returned from three days of intense defence diplomacy—first, at the NATO Defence Ministers meeting in Brussels, where we welcomed President Zelensky, and then at the G7 Defence Ministers meeting in Naples, where we had important updates from the battlefield, agreed that this is a critical point in the conflict, and stressed the need to step up and speed up support for Ukraine. The G7 joint declaration strongly condemned Putin’s illegal invasion and reinforced our unwavering support for Ukraine. It also rightly stated that

“Russia’s aggression against Ukraine is posing a threat to international security, the purposes and principles of the UN Charter, and the rules-based international order.”

That is what is at stake for us all. If President Putin prevails in Ukraine, he will not stop there. If big nations redraw international boundaries by force, the sovereignty and security of all nations is undermined. That is why the UK’s military, economic, industrial and diplomatic support, alongside that of our allies, is so important.

I have returned to the UK knowing that NATO and the G7 are united for Ukraine, just as the UK is united for Ukraine. Our job now is to turn the talks into action, which is exactly what the Government are doing. Today, the Chancellor and I are announcing that the UK will provide an additional £2.26 billion to Ukraine. This is new money, which will be delivered under the extraordinary revenue acceleration loans to Ukraine scheme. It is part of the $50 billion loan package from G7 countries to support Ukraine’s military, budget and reconstruction needs—loans that will be repaid using the profits generated from immobilised Russian sovereign assets. Profits on frozen Russian money will support Ukraine’s fight against Putin, turning the proceeds of Putin’s corrupt regime against it and putting them in the hands of Ukrainians.

I want to be clear: today’s new money is in addition to the £3 billion a year of military support that this Government have committed to Ukraine each year for as long as it takes. The money is in addition to that in the £3.5 billion defence industrial support treaty that I signed with Defence Minister Umerov in July; that is money that Ukraine will use to procure military equipment from British companies, boosting British jobs and British industry. Today’s new money is also in addition to the extra artillery, air defences, ammunition and missiles that we have announced and delivered in the first four months of this new Government. Ukraine is a first-order priority for me as Defence Secretary, and for this Government. We will continue to step up support, to lead, and to stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes.

It is 973 days since Putin launched his full-scale illegal invasion, and Ukraine’s civilians and military alike have been fighting with great courage. There have been important battlefield developments in recent weeks. When I last updated the House, Ukrainian forces were one month into their remarkable offensive in Kursk. Three months on, they continue to hold Russian territory. Ukraine’s strategic surprise has put Putin under pressure, forcing the diversion of some Russian troops and equipment. Despite the increase in brutal Russian counter-attacks and aerial bombardments, they have so far failed to dislodge the Ukrainian incursion.

It is not just in Kursk that Ukraine is fighting back. Ukrainian forces have launched long-range attacks into Russian territory and on military targets that are directly supporting Putin’s illegal invasion. In September, Ukraine used long-range drones to attack four ammunition storage facilities—strikes that successfully destroyed thousands of tonnes of ammunition—and both the defensive thrust into Kursk and the strategic defensive strikes into Russia have had an impact on the battlefield. Russia’s advance towards Pokrovsk in the east—Putin’s main line of effort —has been slowed.

Russian losses continue to rise. Since the start of the conflict, Russia is likely to have suffered 675,000 casualties. In September, the average casualty rate of Russians on the battlefield in Ukraine each day was 1,271—a record high, two and a half times the rate this time last year. As for equipment, Russia has now lost 3,400 tanks and 8,500 armoured vehicles, and 26 vessels in the Black sea fleet have been destroyed or damaged.

Despite the incredible resilience of the Ukrainians, they remain under great pressure from Russian forces across multiple fronts. Russian troops continue to advance and to attack Ukrainian infrastructure, targeting the important port of Odesa and striking energy infrastructure. As we head into winter, Ukraine’s energy generation capacity has been reduced by up to two thirds of pre-war levels. Russian industry remains on a war footing. Russian artillery is outfiring Ukraine by at least three to one, and Russia is recruiting an additional 400,000 troops this year. Defence will account for 32%—one third—of the total Government budget in Russia next year.

In a concerning new development, it is now highly likely that the transfer of hundreds of combat troops from North Korea to Russia has begun. For North Korean soldiers to support Russia’s war of aggression on European soil is as shocking as it is desperate. North Korea already sends significant munitions and arms to Russia, in direct violation of multiple UN resolutions. The developing military co-operation between Russia and the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea has serious security implications for Europe and the Indo-Pacific. It represents a wider growing alliance of aggression that NATO and the G7 nations must confront.

Despite this dangerous development, Ukraine remains determined to fight on its frontline in the east and in the territory in Kursk, and President Zelensky will continue to seek support for his victory plan. We want the plan to succeed, and we stand ready to work closely with the Ukrainians and allies to help it to do so. As we approach 1,000 days of this war, the conflict is at a critical moment, which is why the UK continues to step up its support for Ukraine. Ukrainians are fighting to regain their sovereign territory and to protect peace, democracy and security for the rest of us in Europe.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Secretary of State.

[James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)]

I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement. I offer my condolences and those of Opposition Members to the family and friends of Corporal Christopher Gill, who we understand tragically lost his life during a training exercise recently. We understand that he served his country for 13 years, including in Afghanistan, and more recently volunteered to train Ukrainian soldiers in the UK.

Having visited Salisbury plain last May to see Operation Interflex, I know that we should be grateful to all our service personnel, including Corporal Gill, who have played such a huge role in training the Ukrainian armed forces so that they can continue to fight and defend their homeland. That fight goes on, and we continue to offer all support to the Government for that, as well as standing by the Government, people and armed forces of Ukraine.

We therefore warmly welcome the G7 joint declaration and funding announcement, but we share the Government’s concerns in relation to North Korea. I have lost count of the many times that Vladimir Putin has accused us and our allies of so-called escalatory action in our support for Ukraine, but today we are considering the very real threat of North Korean combat troops being sent to support Russia’s illegal invasion. Let us be in no doubt: any potential agreement between Putin and Kim Jong-un to have North Korean boots on the ground in Ukraine at all—let alone in the numbers that have been reported—would be a major escalatory ratchet by Putin himself.

After all, as the Secretary of State confirmed, Russia has already procured munitions and ballistic missiles from North Korea. The transfer of those weapons in the first place was not only completely unacceptable, but a blatant violation of the UN sanctions that Russia itself voted for. The transfer of North Korean weapons and now the threat of combat troops show weakness and desperation, not strength, on Putin’s part, as the Secretary of State said. Above all, this raises the question of what Putin is offering North Korea in return, but we should not be deterred and must respond.

We took decisive countermeasures to help constrain the transfer of weapons between North Korea and Russia. The Conservative Government imposed sanctions on the arms-for-oil trade between Russia and North Korea, including asset freezes, travel bans and transport sanctions. The new Government, in turn, must now respond to this latest threat of combat troops. Can I press the Secretary of State to look at how the UK should respond in the round? Yes, we need to look at the diplomatic tools we can use to disrupt co-operation between North Korea and Russia, but we also need to urgently look again both at our military aid to Ukraine and at the freedom we offer it to use the munitions that we supply, particularly long-range missiles.

Given the need to continue providing further capability to Ukraine, we welcome yesterday’s announcement that the UK will contribute £2.26 billion to the G7 extraordinary revenue acceleration loan scheme for Ukraine. The Conservative Government were a vocal advocate for mobilising frozen Russian assets to support Ukraine. We strongly welcome the additional funding. When will the money be made available to Ukraine, and over what term? The sooner those funds are mobilised, the better. When exactly will Ukraine receive the funding?

Finally, we have spoken many times of the reality that we are facing not just Russian aggression, but a broader authoritarian axis that ultimately threatens the UK. We have seen that explicitly with Iran and the Red sea, and now we see it coming ever closer to home with the prospect of North Korean troops deploying in a European theatre of war. Surely that strengthens even further the argument that the Government need to deliver on their supposed cast-iron guarantee to spend 2.5% on defence. As the Secretary of State failed to answer me at Defence orals, can I once again press him to confirm that he is fighting hard, with the Treasury, to deliver a clear pathway to 2.5% in the Budget at the end of this month?

[John Healey]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his comments about Corporal Gill. I will pass them on to his widow and make sure that his family are aware of them and of the sentiments of the whole House. The hon. Gentleman is right about the enormous contribution that Corporal Gill made, including to the Interflex training programme, which I was proud to be able to commit to extending throughout 2025. The Chancellor and I visited the programme together on Sunday; we met Colonel Boardman, the commander of Operation Interflex, and the officers and soldiers of 3 Scots, together with instructors from Kosovo, Australia and Sweden, illustrating the way the UK is leading a multinational effort to support Ukrainian soldiers.

The hon. Gentleman is right and I suspect that there is unanimity in the House on concern about the developments in Russia and the growing alliance with North Korea, and that it is united in its determination to take the action required to respond and united in recognising that we must do so alongside NATO and other G7 allies.

The hon. Gentleman asked about the new loan funds available for Ukraine through the proceeds of the interest on frozen Russian assets. We expect those to be available and in Ukraine’s hands from early in the new year, which will put the UK ahead of many other nations participating in the scheme.

On the hon. Gentleman’s final question, we remain totally committed to spending 2.5% on defence. We must do this to meet the threats that this country faces. The Prime Minister confirmed the commitment to set out a clear path to 2.5% in our first week in Government at the NATO summit in Washington. I gently say again to the hon. Gentleman that the last time this country spent 2.5% on defence was in 2010 under a Labour Government, and that that level was never matched in any of the 14 Conservative years since.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Chair of the Select Committee on Defence.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Healey]

I welcome the new Chair of the Select Committee, who I believe now has a Committee to chair. I look forward to an invitation to give evidence and to discuss these issues with the Committee soon.

At the NATO Defence Ministers meeting, there was unanimity among the 32 nations that the important commitments that NATO nations made in Washington, particularly to the $40 billion of extra support for Ukraine, must be delivered. There was a recognition, too, that pledges made must be pledges delivered. One of the Ukrainians’ striking concerns is that just a third of the equipment and support pledged has so far been delivered, so there was a determination to step up not just what we can provide, but how quickly we can provide it. That is something that as a new Government we did from day one.

On Storm Shadow, only Putin benefits from a discussion about this. There is no single weapon that has turned the tide of any war. Whether it is artillery, ammunition, armoured vehicles or missiles, the UK provides support to Ukraine to pursue its UN right to defend its territory and its people.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.

[Helen Maguire (Epsom and Ewell) (LD)]

I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement. Liberal Democrats welcome the new measures announced today to use the profits of frozen assets for Ukraine. That £2 billion will be of immense value to our Ukrainian allies as they seek to repel Putin’s illegal invasion, not least following the alarming news that 1,500 North Korean troops are currently being trained in Russia to fight in Ukraine, but we must go further, faster. Russia must not and cannot succeed.

Some £22 billion in frozen assets remains locked up in our country. We urge the Government, as we have done for years, to seize those assets and repurpose them for Ukraine right away. Will the Secretary of State commit to doing so? Is he having conversations with our democratic partners to that effect? With the US elections fast approaching, it is deeply worrying that our commitment to our Ukrainian allies is uncertain. A second Trump presidency could have a devastating effect on the security of Europe and of Ukraine, so we urge the Government to seize these assets now so that we can support Ukraine come what may.

We must lead with Europe on this. The EU countries between them have close to €20 billion-worth of frozen assets. Will the Secretary of State consider convening an urgent summit with European counterparts to begin that process? Does he agree that if the US cannot, Europe must?

[John Healey]

In fairness to the Conservatives when they were in government, and to the hon. Lady’s party before the election, we were all united in the efforts to get the interest drawn down from the frozen Russian assets put into Ukrainian hands. The UK Government, before the last election and since, have been leading this work.

These are practical steps that we can take now. Whatever declaratory position the hon. Lady wants to adopt about seizing Russian assets, this is valuable additional funding that, from the new year, will be in the hands of the Ukrainian Government to spend on, in the UK’s case, the military aid that they need. That comes in addition to all the other increases that we have put in place since the election. I hope that despite the hon. Lady’s calls for going very much further, she will recognise how significant this move is and recognise that the UK is among the first of the nations to move on this. I hope she will give this House her full support when we introduce the primary legislation that will seek the parliamentary spending authority to provide this financial assistance in pursuance of a bilateral agreement that we will strike with Ukraine over how to do it.

[Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab)]

When this Government said that our support for Ukraine was absolute, we meant it. My right hon. Friend referred to the recently signed defence export treaty between the UK and Ukraine, which will support Ukraine’s defence industrial base while helping to replenish our own stockpiles. As far as he is able, will he update the House on the treaty’s progress?

[John Healey]

I was proud to sign that treaty, which means that Ukraine can draw down the export credit cover and contract with UK companies. It is also a framework that, like some other frameworks the UK has put in place, other nations and their companies can use to deal with the difficulties that many face in contracting with Ukraine. The Ukrainians will use it for contracting and procuring munitions and ammunition. It will allow us to step up not just the provision but the production of essential military aid to Ukraine.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

I welcome the statement, but the BBC reports that the money will be paid not in one go but in tranches over time. We have the Budget next week. Will the Secretary of State assure us that, given that the money is what accountants would call an “exceptional item”, it will in no way be included in the overall defence budget next week, or attempt to bolster or bump that up? There are rumours of cuts, so will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that the money is a one-off that will be treated completely differently in the Red Book?

[John Healey]

I can give the right hon. Gentleman that assurance. The money is a one-off. It is additional and separate, and it will be accounted for and set out separately in the Treasury documentation. Its significance is that it is a loan to Ukraine that Ukraine will not have to pay back, because it will be serviced by the interest on the frozen Russians assets. He asks whether the sum will be paid all in one go. It will be made available soon in the new year, and the Ukrainians will be able to draw it down as they need it for the purposes that they determine.

[Derek Twigg (Widnes and Halewood) (Lab)]

I welcome my right hon. Friend’s comments about North Korea and the growing alliance of aggression that needs to be confronted. I hope that we will have a strong response to that. I also welcome the extra £2.26 billion. My right hon. Friend made the important point—one of many—that the Ukrainians are being outgunned three to one in artillery by the Russians. Although the additional support is vital, how quickly can we ensure that we get extra munitions, artillery and missiles from the alliance and the G7 to Ukraine?

--- Later in debate ---

[John Healey]

We can get that into the hands of Ukrainians as soon as it is available for that purpose. I announced the new contract to produce short-range air defence missiles, the LMMs—lightweight multirole missiles—in the UK. The initial contract is for 650 and they will be in the hands of Ukrainians from the beginning of next year. We hope to step that up during the course of 2025. Where other nations are ready to make available the weaponry that Ukrainians need, the established arrangements for getting it into the hands of Ukrainians are in place. It is a question not of how, but of how quickly.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

The delicious irony of the interest on Kremlin kleptocrats’ ill-gotten gains being used to fund the resistance against Russian aggression will not be lost on Members across the House. I welcome what the Defence Secretary has said in its entirety. He will know better than any of us the crucial importance of the NATO alliance machinery in assisting Ukrainian resistance. Given that one recent former American President and one current French President have both made disobliging remarks about the NATO alliance in the fairly recent past, will the Secretary of State reassure us that at least President Macron is now fully on board with the alliance and France’s important contribution to it?

[John Healey]

I will indeed. At no point during the two days of NATO Defence Ministers’ talks was there any indication of the sort of views that the right hon. Gentleman suggests that some in America may hold, or that President Macron might have previously expressed. Indeed, in the good bilateral meeting that I had with the French Minister for the Armed Forces, Sébastien Lecornu, it was clear that the French commitment to supporting Ukraine is as strong as the UK’s. I am glad to say that the determination of the French to work more closely with us on security and defence is equally strong.

[Mr Calvin Bailey (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)]

I welcome the statement and the announcement of further funding. To ensure that we sustain the pace with which we are providing aid to Ukraine, and that we energise our own logistical enterprise, what action is my right hon. Friend taking to boost UK defence industrial production to support the Ukrainian armed forces and defence supply chains throughout the UK?

[John Healey]

My hon. Friend knows this territory as well as anybody else in the House. He will know that over the 973 days the UK Government have changed fundamentally the way in which we go about procuring what is required. British industry has responded magnificently to that. It has been able to respond more quickly, innovate more rapidly and devise what it can produce to meet the needs that Ukraine says it has on the frontline. The UK Government’s task is to be the middle man to ensure that that can happen at greater volume and speed. We will continue to do that.

[Mike Martin (Tunbridge Wells) (LD)]

Do the Government think that Ukraine is winning or losing?

[John Healey]

I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman was listening to my statement, but I made it clear that this is a critical period in the conflict. Ukraine is under huge pressure, especially on the eastern front, but it is fighting, conducting a counter-offensive and putting Putin under pressure. The only conclusion that the 32 nations drew from the discussions in Brussels, confirmed by the G7 nations in Naples, was that now is the moment when Ukraine’s allies must step up our support, put Ukraine in the strongest possible position to withstand the Russian onslaught and put pressure on Putin—a military, economic and diplomatic response.

[Cat Eccles (Stourbridge) (Lab)]

I welcome the statement, which is good news for Ukraine. Does my right hon. Friend agree that Ukraine is the frontier of war with the Kremlin, that international support is now more critical than ever and that we must be absolutely clear that defence of the UK begins in Ukraine?

[John Healey]

My hon. Friend is right. Her very words were spoken by several Defence Ministers in Brussels. Defence of the UK and of Europe starts in Ukraine. Ukraine is fighting for the same values and for the rest of us in Europe.

[Sir Roger Gale (Herne Bay and Sandwich) (Con)]

In sharp contrast to the presence of the United Nations Secretary-General at Putin’s summit in Russia, which sent out all the wrong signals, this statement is hugely welcome, so I thank the Secretary of State. Further to the question that the Chairman of the Defence Committee asked, is it not now time that not only Storm Shadow but all the matériel supplied to Ukraine by the western alliance should be used by Ukraine in the manner that it sees fit?

[John Healey]

We provide Ukraine with the weaponry and support to defend its country, freedom and people. There is a consistency in that and there is no bar to Ukraine striking Russian military targets, so long as that is consistent with international humanitarian law and part of the proper defence of the country. I spoke about the long-range drones and the successful attacks they have been making—defensive attacks, but nevertheless on military targets in Russia. It is for the Ukrainians to determine how best to defend their country, and we will support them in whatever ways we can.

[Fred Thomas (Plymouth Moor View) (Lab)]

I warmly welcome the £2.26 billion of aid announced today. It is great news for those fighting for democracy in Europe and a day of low morale in the Kremlin—it is fantastic. The Ukrainians might well use some of the money to continue to innovate at pace. Every few weeks they create new cutting-edge and adaptive technologies to use in the fight against Putin. Will we learn from our friends in Ukraine and ensure that we, as a country, invest in our own small and medium-sized defence enterprises, so that we can have the same output in the future?

[John Healey]

While there has been no change in the basis on which we provide military aid to Ukraine, there is a change in the approach we take not just to providing aid but to producing some of the military equipment and ammunition. Our challenge now is to take the lessons of what we have demonstrated can be done to support Ukraine to equip our own forces better to fight in the future.

[Dave Doogan (Angus and Perthshire Glens) (SNP)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his statement, its content and for advance sight of it. The additional funding for Ukraine is very welcome, but it is what matériel they turn the funding into that will have the effect on the battlefield that we wish to see. With the shell production of European partners still well short of a million units per year, will the Secretary of State indicate how UK shell production has grown, either in numeric or percentage terms? If he cannot share that with the House, will he give us an assurance that it is increasing?

[John Healey]

I can absolutely assure the hon. Member that it is increasing. I have already spoken about the production of short-range air defence missiles—the LMMs—which is increasing to meet what the Ukrainians need. The Ukrainians are clear that air defence systems and long-range drones are the things that matter most to their defence and to their ability to put Russia properly under pressure.

[Johanna Baxter (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (Lab)]

I warmly welcome today’s announcement of an additional £2.2 billion in financial support for Ukraine, generated by frozen Russian assets. Will my right hon. Friend say a little more about the concerning development of North Korean soldiers supporting Russia’s war of aggression on European soil, and how that underlines the importance of us using every tool in our box to support Ukraine’s efforts?

[John Healey]

I regret to say to my hon. Friend that I am not in a position to give the House any more details about that. Suffice it to say, we are watching and monitoring this extremely closely. We and the House have detected a growing co-operation between North Korea and Russia, and between Iran and Russia, at least over the past 12 months. It is a sign not of strength but weakness on Putin’s part, but it introduces a dangerous new development, both for Ukraine and for wider European security.

[Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)]

I welcome the Defence Secretary’s recognition of President Zelensky’s victory plan and his support for that, but he will know that part of that plan is the use of long-range missiles. I get his point about long-range UK drones being used only for military targets in Russia, and within the norms of international rules of law, but I detect, perhaps, from his answers to two questions on long-range missiles that he is edging towards a position where he might publicly declare that Ukraine can have the freedom to hit military targets in Russia using long-range missiles. That will change the war and have an impact.

[John Healey]

We have stepped up the support we provide to Ukraine, but there has been no change in the basis on which we provide that support to Ukraine.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement and his clear personal commitment. It is very expensive for Putin to fight this war, but he is getting a lot of money from the sale of oil. There are real concerns that British firms, or firms with British connections, are facilitating and enabling the illegal oil trade. What more can be done, in co-operation with the Foreign Secretary, to ensure that sanctions are more effective against the Russian oil trade?

--- Later in debate ---

[John Healey]

My hon. Friend is right. It is not just that we can confirm today that we are making the additional loan money available to the Ukrainians; it is also important to remember that the sanctions themselves are responsible for freezing at least $400 billion that Russia would otherwise be able to use to feed its war machine. The UK Government and others have taken steps on the shadow fleet—the shipping in the grey zone, trying to avoid sanctions—but wherever we have the evidence required to act and sanction, we will do that and we will continue to do that.

[Suella Braverman (Fareham and Waterlooville) (Con)]

Not only is a full battalion of North Korean soldiers set to be deployed to assist Russia in Ukraine, but Putin is benefiting from components and weapons provided by the Iranians and the Chinese. This all represents an unprecedented conflation of threats to global security. I echo the question asked by hon. Friend the shadow Defence Secretary: the commitment to invest 2.5% of GDP is right, but when will that be backed up with action?

[John Healey]

The right hon. Lady is right. We totally condemn North Korea’s involvement and support for Russia, from arms transfer to any further developments. As I said in my statement, that is in breach of multiple UN resolutions and we continue to watch the situation.

[Phil Brickell (Bolton West) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State join me in paying tribute to the UK armed forces who are providing vital support to our Ukrainian allies, and to the Ukrainian armed forces who are fighting valiantly against Putin’s unlawful invasion of Ukraine?

[John Healey]

I will indeed. I have had the privilege of visiting Interflex training courses four times now, I think. I visited the second ever course at Salisbury plain. It is deeply moving to see the level of commitment of British forces to the task of training the Ukrainians, and to spend time with those Ukrainian recruits. They are lorry drivers, bank clerks, PR executives of all ages, who have volunteered to fight for their country and their freedom. They are trained by British forces, now with those from other countries alongside them, who are equipping them to be able to fight for their country. Knowing that they will soon return to the frontline in their own nation is deeply sobering.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

I very much welcome this £2.26 billion, but has the Defence Secretary had the opportunity to study the National Audit Office report published last month into the impact of our operations in Ukraine, particularly Operation Interflex, on the availability of the defence estate for the training of units of the British Army? While that is acceptable in the short term, in the long term it probably is not. What impact assessment has he carried out, and what proposals does he have to make available the defence estate we need to train British soldiers?

[John Healey]

Nothing will shake our commitment to continuing the Interflex training programme. We are determined and we will continue that throughout 2025. Many of the partner countries that have been alongside us this year have already committed to doing that again next year. The right hon. Member asked me about Interflex, the defence estate and the training of Ukrainian soldiers. That will continue. On the National Audit Office report, I have indeed read that report. It is a welcome change from the normal run of National Audit Office reports into the Ministry of Defence that we have been used to in recent years. It praises a good deal of what has been done by the Ministry of Defence in support of Ukraine, and it is very welcome.

[Graeme Downie (Dunfermline and Dollar) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his very welcome statement. He mentioned the importance of the Ukrainian forces’ efforts in the Black sea against the Russian Black Sea Fleet and how important that is to the Ukrainian economy. Could he go a little further and describe how this funding for Ukraine will help to ensure that security and perhaps go even further in the Black Sea?

[John Healey]

The principle behind this funding is that we put it in the hands of the Ukrainians. The Ukrainians are in the best position—and must be in the position—to decide how best to use it. We have said that they can use it entirely on military support if they choose to do so; the support that they choose to procure with it will be a matter for them, in discussion with us.

[David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale) (Con)]

Is the Defence Secretary able to share with us any conversations that the Foreign Secretary had while in China about China’s engagement in this situation, and particularly its willingness to bring to bear the influence that it undoubtedly has on both Russia and North Korea?

[John Healey]

Happily, I can indeed. The Foreign Secretary was in China on 18 and 19 October. He met his counterpart, the Foreign Minister, and talked about the areas on which our countries may disagree, including on Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine. He also raised the UK’s concerns over China’s supply of equipment to Russia and to Russia’s military industrial complex.

[Kevin Bonavia (Stevenage) (Lab)]

I, too, very much welcome today’s statement from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. It provides evidence not just of warm words, but of real practical support for our ally in its desperate hour of need. But this country cannot do this on its own. Can he update the House on any discussions that he or his ministerial colleagues have had with our friends in the rest of the G7 on combating Putin through economic measures?

[John Healey]

I can indeed do so. I came away from the G7 meeting in Naples and from the meeting of NATO Defence Ministers in Brussels reinforced in my view that there is a determination not just to stand with Ukraine now, but to do so for as long as it takes. I will send my hon. Friend a copy of the communiqué from both meetings. I think he will be encouraged, as I was, by the degree of unanimity and determination not to allow Putin to believe that, if he holds out, the west will give up.

[Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)]

I welcome the announcement of the acceleration loan scheme. I also welcome the timing; the British Government are not simply waiting to see the outcome of the US presidential election, as some other Governments are doing. Will the Defence Secretary repeat the assurance he gave in the House last week that, regardless of US policy, military aid to Ukraine from European NATO nations will not decrease next year?

[John Healey]

We are determined, on the contrary, to maintain and step up the military aid required from the UK. I found a similar determination from Defence Ministers across the NATO nations. We recognise that the Ukrainians are not only mounting this fight for themselves, but waging it on behalf of us all and the values that we share with them.

[Torcuil Crichton (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for this additional £2.26 billion for Ukraine, which will find a strong echo from the hundreds and thousands of individuals across this country who have opened their doors to Ukrainian refugees, and in many charities and organisations such as Jeeps for Peace in Scotland, which sends direct aid by taking pick-ups across Europe to the frontline. Does this money and the individual support from Britain not show that we will stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes?

[John Healey]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his thanks, but those thanks should really go to the Chancellor, because the Treasury has led the work on ensuring that we can put in place this new system of loans and make this additional money available to Ukraine. He is completely right to say that part of the strength of the support that we can offer as a country to Ukraine rests on the strength of the support of the British people—the warmth they have shown from the outset for Ukrainian refugees and the determination of many groups, such as the one he cites, which have been willing to collect and, in some cases, transport support for Ukraine and its people out to the country itself. I pay tribute to their efforts.

[Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)]

It is concerning that we have received only the briefest of updates in this House on the direct involvement of North Korean troops, after one week of it being widely reported in the media. Last week, during Defence questions, the right hon. Gentleman gave his full-throated support for Ukraine but made no mention of the Government’s awareness of the potential deployment of North Korean reinforcements up to brigade strength. What is the Government’s current assessment of the scope of North Korean involvement, and how do overt North Korean boots on the ground in Ukraine necessitate a change in our posture?

[John Healey]

I have just given the House the assessment of the involvement and the extent, at present, of the involvement of North Korean troops.

[Blair McDougall (East Renfrewshire) (Lab)]

Given the potential of North Korean boots on the ground joining Iranian drones in the air above Ukraine, it seems clear that the calculus that Russia is operating to is very different from that of the western alliance. Does the Secretary of State agree that there is a risk that, when the fear of escalation is one-sided, that itself becomes escalatory? Therefore, while welcoming the additional support that he has announced today, I wonder whether he will join me in saying that it is time for other countries to follow the lead that the UK has shown today.

[John Healey]

Wherever there are signs of the breaching of UN resolutions and sanctions or of a dangerous escalation in support of Russia, we will act. We have acted before. My hon. Friend is right to point to the growing alliance between Russia and Iran and between Russia and North Korea.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his statement and, indeed, for his very welcome news. Everybody in this House is incredibly pleased with the Government’s decision today.

As the US election draws closer and uncertainty grows over the level of support that will come from the US after that election, does the Secretary of State agree that Ministers or Members of this House must exercise caution when expressing an opinion on that presidential race? I ask that with great respect. Will he take the opportunity to reaffirm the strong and resilient view of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland that we should stand against Russian aggression and support those who need our help through aid, weaponry and diplomacy?

[John Healey]

The hon. Gentleman is right: the US elections are for the US people. As a UK Government and a UK Parliament, we will deal with whoever the American people choose to elect as their president. I am glad that he welcomes the support that the Government have stepped for up Ukraine. I say to him and to the House—I think the shadow Defence Secretary will recognise this—that it makes the job of the UK Government so much easier when there is such united support in this House for what we must do to support Ukraine for as long as it takes.

[Tim Roca (Macclesfield) (Lab)]

I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement. I would not expect him to comment on the US presidential election, but naturally there is a nervousness about the policy of a future US Government, which makes what European partners and allies do even more important. There is a huge disparity in the aid being provided by different partners across Europe. Denmark has been phenomenal in providing 1.86% of GDP—or more than €6 billion—and other countries such as Spain have not provided so much. Can he assure us that there were robust discussions in private among his Defence Minister colleagues in Brussels?

[John Healey]

Yes, I can. There were discussions, which were about the level of commitment we must make collectively to Ukraine and the level of commitment we must make collectively to NATO. I welcome the fact that this year 23 of the 32 NATO nations will meet that 2% of GDP threshold. It is a bare minimum—there is more that we need to do, particularly as European nations in NATO, in the years ahead.

[Joe Powell (Kensington and Bayswater) (Lab)]

I warmly thank the Secretary of State and the full ministerial team for their hard work mobilising the additional money from frozen Russian sovereign assets. I hope that other countries will follow UK leadership on this. In mobilising every tool across the Government, and with winter approaching, may I ask the Secretary of State to continue the push to realise the assets from the sale of Chelsea football club—the £2.5 billion from Roman Abramovich that could go towards humanitarian needs, which are also increasingly urgent in Ukraine?

[John Healey]

The Government understand the case that my hon. Friend makes. The Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty), met him last night to discuss this further.

[Gordon McKee (Glasgow South) (Lab)]

On a visit to Kiev with parliamentary colleagues last month, I saw at first hand the incredible bravery of the Ukrainian people, who will welcome this statement. Unfortunately, Russia’s war machine continues to be powered by western-made semiconductors that are smuggled into the country. May I ask the Secretary of State what work the Government are doing to make sure that Russia does not get access to that technology?

[John Healey]

One of the Government’s great assets is my hon. Friend the Minister of State because of the work that he does with many other countries. Whenever discussions are required or evidence is gathered he speaks to many of the countries that may find that they have within them companies that might be involved in those supply chains. Wherever that happens, my hon. Friend is on it, and he is leading the charge to ensure that where we can identify those supply chains, we take the action that is necessary to close them down.

[Alex Ballinger (Halesowen) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his very welcome statement.

As we approach 1,000 days since Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine, it is increasingly clear that Ukraine’s survival depends on the west increasing its manufacture of munitions. Can my right hon. Friend say a little more about boosting our defence industrial supply chains, including in the west midlands, where defence manufacturers are keen to contribute?

[John Healey]

My hon. Friend is right. The importance of the British defence industry is not just in the greater security that it gives us as a nation but as part of the economic boost that will drive growth in future. One feature I was pleased to see at the recent Government investment summit was the confirmation that defence would be one of the eight economic growth sectors that would receive priority policy focus and support as we develop that for the future. That is in the interests of Ukraine immediately, and it is in our own interests in future. It is how we can combine both the strengthening of our national security and the boost to our national economy.