All 39 Parliamentary debates on 16th Sep 2020

Wed 16th Sep 2020
Wed 16th Sep 2020
Wed 16th Sep 2020
Remote Participation in House of Commons Proceedings (Motion)
Commons Chamber

1st reading & 1st reading & 1st reading: House of Commons & 1st reading & 1st reading: House of Commons
Wed 16th Sep 2020
Misogyny in Sport
Commons Chamber
(Adjournment Debate)
Wed 16th Sep 2020
Wed 16th Sep 2020
Wed 16th Sep 2020
Wed 16th Sep 2020
Wed 16th Sep 2020
Wed 16th Sep 2020
Wed 16th Sep 2020
Wed 16th Sep 2020
Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill
Lords Chamber

Committee stage:Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords

House of Commons

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Wednesday 16 September 2020
The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock

Prayers

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Prayers mark the daily opening of Parliament. The occassion is used by MPs to reserve seats in the Commons Chamber with 'prayer cards'. Prayers are not televised on the official feed.

This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]
Virtual participation in proceedings commenced (Order, 4 June).
[NB: [V] denotes a Member participating virtually.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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The Secretary of State was asked—
Chris Bryant Portrait Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
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How many self-employed people in Wales have not received support from the Government’s covid-19 support schemes.

Simon Hart Portrait The Secretary of State for Wales (Simon Hart)
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There are 205,000 self-employed in Wales, 110,000 of whom are receiving direct cash grants, totalling over £295 million, through the Government’s self-employment income support scheme. The scheme is one of a range of Government initiatives supporting the self-employed during the coronavirus outbreak.

Chris Bryant Portrait Chris Bryant
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If you will indulge me, Mr Speaker, I want to pass on my commiserations to everyone involved in the horrific car crash in Trebanog in the Rhondda earlier today. I thank the police and the fire brigade, who have been helping.

The Secretary of State is right that lots of people have received help, but an awful lot of people in the Rhondda have not had a single penny. There are people who set up a company just two years ago and have now lost their business, their home and their livelihood. There are people who have gone from having £3,000 a month in the bank to £300 a month. When we come to the next round of decisions by the Government and the Treasury, we have to do something for the 3 million people who have been excluded from every single scheme. They feel that this has been massively unfair, and we have hundreds of tradespeople in the Rhondda who have not had a single penny off the Government.

Simon Hart Portrait Simon Hart
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I know the whole House will join me in expressing our sympathy for those involved in the accident in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency this morning. I know what a blow it is for him and everybody involved, and our thoughts are with them.

In relation to the schemes, I suspect that we all, as constituency MPs, have examples of people who have fallen through the net. I can only reiterate what the Chancellor has said on numerous occasions, which is that we will always try to look at every possible way to ensure that those who qualify for help but, for some reason, are not getting it do get it. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to raise any individual cases, which we have all had, I am happy to look at them.

Nia Griffith Portrait Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
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My thoughts are with those caught up in the awful crash in the Rhondda.

Many self-employed people in Wales who have already been hard hit by lockdown now fear the impact on their customer base of the looming spectre of mass unemployment that is hanging over their communities—industrial communities that still bear the scars of the damage wreaked by the Tories in the ’80s. When will this Government grasp the urgency of the situation and bring forward specific measures for sectors such as aviation that need longer to recover, in order to support the thousands of Welsh workers who depend on them?

Simon Hart Portrait Simon Hart
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The hon. Lady makes an unnecessary political point. The Government, along with the Welsh Government, have done everything they can to ensure that the smallest possible number of people in Wales have gone without important assistance during this pandemic. If she is hinting that the extension of furlough is the only answer, I can tell her that it is not. The Treasury has said that that is one option, but there are numerous other options that ought to help people and are already helping people make their way out of covid and back into a properly functioning economy. Of course, the best way to save jobs across the whole of Wales is to get people safely back to work.

Nia Griffith Portrait Nia Griffith
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Indeed, but there is now barely a month to go until the Government’s job protection schemes end, leaving thousands of self-employed people and others at risk of unemployment. It is not just Labour saying that. Businesses, trade unions and the Treasury Committee have all sounded the alarm. Will the Government accept that a one-size-fits-all approach to this jobs crisis is simply not working, and will they come forward with concrete proposals and a real plan to safeguard jobs for people across Wales?

Simon Hart Portrait Simon Hart
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A third of the workforce in Wales has been supported by the UK Government during the pandemic. We have gone further and deeper than pretty well any Government in the world, with VAT deferrals, mortgage holidays, rental support, increases in universal credit, relaxation of the minimum income floor and VAT reductions. This is not a one-size-fits-all arrangement. This is a whole package of measures that are designed to help as many people as possible to stay in work and get back to work as soon as it is safe to do so. I am surprised that the hon. Lady does not welcome that.

Jessica Morden Portrait Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
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On the issue of the 3 million excluded, my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) is right. At a time when more local areas are facing lockdowns, I urge Ministers to do far more to help those who have fallen through the gaps, at the very least by addressing the five-week wait for universal credit—it should be a grant, not an advance.

Simon Hart Portrait Simon Hart
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I assure the hon. Lady that there will never be a moment when the Government or the Wales Office sit back and think we have done enough as far as this is concerned. We are always striving and will always strive to ensure that we improve every one of our schemes. Where there are gaps, which we have identified before—Government Members have also been helpful in that respect—we will do everything we can to ensure that they are plugged.

Jonathan Edwards Portrait Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Ind)
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What discussions he has had with the Welsh Government on legislative proposals for a UK internal market.

Jo Gideon Portrait Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Con)
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What recent assessment he has made of Wales’s role in the proposed UK internal market.

Tommy Sheppard Portrait Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)
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What recent discussions he has had with the First Minister of Wales on legislative proposals for a UK internal market.

Ben Everitt Portrait Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) (Con)
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What recent assessment he has made of Wales’s role in the proposed UK internal market.

Craig Williams Portrait Craig Williams (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
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What recent assessment he has made of Wales’s role in the proposed UK internal market.

Simon Hart Portrait The Secretary of State for Wales (Simon Hart)
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The Government’s response to the UK internal market consultation published last week highlighted the broad support for the proposals from businesses and job creators in Wales. The Bill gives businesses the continued certainty of seamless trade across the UK as the transition period ends.

Jonathan Edwards Portrait Jonathan Edwards
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Much of the rhetoric around the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill is that it is a shared asset, yet what is missing are any shared intergovernmental structures. On Owain Glyndwr Day, why will the British Government not be honest for once and admit that they are using consequential legislation resulting from Brexit, such as this Bill, to effectively reassert direct Westminster rule over Wales?

Simon Hart Portrait Simon Hart
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I disagree with the fundamental premise of the hon. Gentleman’s question. These proposals went to public consultation, and I will quote the response from one business in Wales that is promoting Wales, employing people in Wales and contributing to the Welsh Government. It said:

“The UK Internal Market Bill will be the making of the UK.”

It seems to me that the comments relating to UKIM are divided into politicians who are anxious to protect their cosy clique in Cardiff, and business, employers and the public in Wales, who recognise that this is an important part of the next stage of our economic recovery.

Jo Gideon Portrait Jo Gideon
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The proposals in the Bill are designed to make sure that UK businesses can continue to enjoy the ability to trade easily across our four home nations in a way that helps them to invest and create jobs, just as they have done for hundreds of years. It is extremely important, therefore, that businesses are onboard and happy with our proposals. What conversations has the Secretary of State had with businesses across Wales about these proposals and what sort of a response has he received?

Simon Hart Portrait Simon Hart
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My hon. Friend raises an interesting point. There have been numerous engagements in person with the Business Secretary and others, and online engagements, and I can safely assure the House that those who have responded have not expressed any great concerns about UKIM. In fact, they see it as a perfectly natural successor to the existing status quo. They want us to proceed with it, they consider it to be fair, and more importantly they think that jobs depend on it.

Tommy Sheppard Portrait Tommy Sheppard
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Ministers seem to be in a state of denial about what this internal market Bill actually says. It is quite clear that it will give the power to the UK Government to make spending decisions in Wales on matters that are devolved to the Welsh Parliament. Can the Secretary of State tell the House how on earth that respects the devolution settlement?

Simon Hart Portrait Simon Hart
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The hon. Gentleman illustrates my point. It seems that in certain nationalist quarters this is all about politics and power, whereas in fact it is all about jobs and the economy and people grafting their way into a post-covid world. The Welsh Government will not lose a single power—not one—after the Bill is passed; in fact they will have 70 new ones. The fact that the UK Government will be there as well to contribute to the economy of Wales in a way they have not been able to for 45 years should be welcomed by him and his colleagues in Wales as a major step forward.

Ben Everitt Portrait Ben Everitt
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Next spring, Milton Keynes theatre will host the Welsh National Opera—a great, historic institution in Milton Keynes hosting a great Welsh institution. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is not just the free movement of goods, but the free movement of people, culture, ideas and values between our four nations that makes our Union so strong?

Simon Hart Portrait Simon Hart
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That is a wholly appropriate question, because it enables me to say that sometimes when we talk about the strength of the Union, we limit ourselves to talk simply about economy activity, but my hon. Friend is right to point out that the Union is magical for a whole lot of other reasons too. The cultural and social elements he describes sum up why the Union is important. Some of the legislation and ideas we are talking about will enhance and encourage that over the coming years.

Craig Williams Portrait Craig Williams
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I echo the findings of the public consultation on the internal market Bill and reinforce the reality: in mid-Wales and Montgomeryshire, economic activity, transport links and our public services look to the west midlands economy. My constituents and businesses have been watching the progress of the Bill, they welcome it and they want it. They do not want Cardiff Bay or nationalist politicians distracting people’s attention from the fact that they would welcome investment. I look forward to lobbying the Secretary of State and the Department for Transport to build things such as the Middletown bypass.

Simon Hart Portrait Simon Hart
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I am a former resident of my hon. Friend’s constituency and I know exactly what he is referring to. It is worth reminding ourselves that a quarter of his constituency’s workforce cross the border every day to make a living, and cross back again in the evening. The border must be porous. The worst thing for jobs and the economy of mid-Wales, or anywhere else, are artificial, political boundaries put up for the advantage of a few people, under a cosy arrangement in Cardiff. We are talking about proper jobs, proper people and proper parts of Wales that require and deserve the support of all the parties, including the nationalists, who make so much noise but never deliver.

Liz Saville Roberts Portrait Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
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On 8 July, the Secretary of State, in response to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Ben Lake), said that ending our relationship with Europe would allow public bodies in Wales to buy more local goods, more local products and more local services, yet his own Government’s UK Internal Market Bill appears to block local measures that would prioritise local goods or services over those from other parts of the UK. How does he reconcile those two positions now?

Simon Hart Portrait Simon Hart
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I reconcile the position by not recognising the claim that is being made. If the public consultation on the UK Internal Market Bill is anything to go by—forget what us politicians may say—the public welcome the idea, because it secures a market that has been enjoyed for hundreds of years. People see it as logical. They see it as a perfectly reasonable step forward to enshrine in UK law what has for 45 years been conducted in Brussels. They see that as good for jobs, and the right hon. Lady seems to have some objection to that.

Liz Saville Roberts Portrait Liz Saville Roberts
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Well, he said it, and it was in the White Paper; procurement was mentioned there. Given that that is one of the weapons in the armoury of the Welsh Government with which to support businesses, it would be fair to expect something on that in the Bill—but I will move on.

Today marks, of course, the anniversary of the proclamation of Owain Glyndŵr as Prince of Wales at the first Senedd or Parliament in Machynlleth.

Liz Saville Roberts Portrait Liz Saville Roberts
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There was a Senedd in Machynlleth. The year 2020 saw the renaming of the Assembly as Senedd or Welsh Parliament. [Interruption.] Maybe the significance is lost on a certain Welsh MP; maybe the significance is lost in translation. [Interruption.]

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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Order. We are not having a debate across the Benches. Please have the discussion outside afterwards, and let me know the result of that discussion.

Liz Saville Roberts Portrait Liz Saville Roberts
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Maybe even the debate is lost entirely here or lost in translation, but how can the Secretary of State reconcile this historical serendipity with this Government’s brazen power-grab?

Simon Hart Portrait Simon Hart
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It seems astounding to me that the Labour Opposition consider the UKIM Bill to be a threat to the Union and the nationalists consider it to be a threat to separatism. I think they should continue their debate, so that they could inform the rest of the House of their objection. To describe a piece of legislation that would result in 70 new powers and the removal of none as a power-grab, is to use a definition of power-grab that I do not recognise.

Gerald Jones Portrait Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab)
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Last year, the Tory party promised to strengthen the Union and strengthen the devolved settlements, but their Internal Market Bill does exactly the opposite, as the Secretary of State’s colleague David Melding knows. So will the Secretary of State accept that, rather than being about promising more powers to Wales—promises that we simply cannot believe—the Government’s Internal Market Bill actually rolls back the powers, undermines the devolution settlement and gives comfort to those who want to break up the Union?

Simon Hart Portrait Simon Hart
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The answer to that is no, no and no. The reason is that when it comes to testing the temperature and mood of the people of Wales, I rely on public consultations and my engagement with businesses—employers—north, south, east and mid, and none of them make the claims that the hon. Gentleman has made. They see this legislation as a perfectly natural transition from EU rule to UK and Welsh Government collaborative operations in Wales; that seems to them to be perfectly sensible. It seems to me to be perfectly sensible. It seems that the objection is about politics and power, rather than about jobs and livelihoods.

Chris Elmore Portrait Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab)
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We all know the interest with which the Secretary of State listens to the No. 10 chief adviser, like every other member of the governing party. The Brexit Minister in the Welsh Government, Jeremy Miles, has been very clear that there are no new devolution powers; the measures are within the existing rules of devolution. Members on the Government Benches may pontificate all they like; the reality is that they are trying to roll back devolution because they do not like what the people of Wales do by electing Labour-led Governments in Welsh Government elections. This is a reversal of 20 years of the Tories’ not liking who is elected to Government in Wales.

Simon Hart Portrait Simon Hart
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The hon. Gentleman needs to remind himself that there was not a single seat in Wales where Labour did not lose votes at the last election. He needs to be a little careful—[Interruption.] With respect, he needs to be a little careful about making accusations, based on the political reality. The economic reality is that the people of Wales do not share his enthusiasm for defining the next stage of our post-covid and post-Brexit evolution purely in terms of political one-upmanship. They want to see jobs and investment, and that is what we intend to deliver.

Kevin Brennan Portrait Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
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What recent discussions he has had with the First Minister of Wales on the effect on the Welsh economy in the event that the UK does not reach an agreement with the EU on the future relationship by the end of the transition period.

David T C Davies Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (David T. C. Davies)
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The Secretary of State and I have had regular discussions with Welsh Ministers, including the First Minister, on a wide range of matters, including preparations for the end of the transition period. Preparations for the end of the year are well advanced, and build on the plans that we had in place for a no-deal scenario in 2019.

Kevin Brennan Portrait Kevin Brennan
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When he has had those discussions with the First Minister, has the Minister discussed how the so-called shared prosperity fund will be spent in Wales? I do not know whether he has seen any opinion polls recently, but far from people in Wales regarding the Welsh Government as a “cosy clique in Cardiff”, as the Secretary of State puts it, they far prefer the Welsh Government to run their affairs to a swivel-eyed bunch of incompetents in Westminster doing so. Will the Minister commit to the House, now, that every penny of that money will be allowed to be spent by the democratically elected Government in Cardiff?

David T C Davies Portrait David T. C. Davies
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There are no swivel-eyes on this side of the Chamber. The hon. Gentleman ought to restrain himself a little; I do not think anyone would want to be looking at his eyes at the moment. The reality is that far more people voted for Members of Parliament in Wales than voted for Members of the Welsh Assembly—the turnout is always high, which rather rebuts the hon. Gentleman’s point. We have already said that the shared prosperity fund will match the amount of money that came from the European Union, and that will of course be spent in Wales after discussions with Ministers in both the Senedd and Parliament.

Stephen Crabb Portrait Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con)
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The Minister will be aware of the news overnight that Hitachi has decided to pull out of the project to build the Wylfa Newydd nuclear power station on Anglesey—a project that is not only of strategic importance to the Welsh economy but will help the UK to meet its net zero target by 2050. Will my hon. Friend leave no stone unturned in the quest to see whether there is a way forward for the project? In particular, will he continue his discussions with ministerial colleagues here and in Cardiff Bay and continue to work with my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Virginia Crosbie), who has worked so hard to get the project moving?

David T C Davies Portrait David T. C. Davies
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I am happy to confirm that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has already had discussions with Horizon about this matter. The announcement was deeply disappointing for us all and came on the back of Hitachi’s concerns, so I am told, about the covid situation and the Japanese economy. None the less, Wylfa is one of the best sites in the world at which to build a nuclear power station and I understand that Horizon has already been sounding out the possibility of the project going ahead with other developers.

Geraint Davies Portrait Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
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What discussions he has had with the Welsh Government on the comparative effectiveness of the (a) Development Bank of Wales and (b) high street banks in providing finance to business in Wales during the covid-19 outbreak.

David T C Davies Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (David T. C. Davies)
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High street banks have been at the forefront of lending to firms impacted by covid-19. They have provided support to Welsh firms through more than £1.1 billion-worth of loans under the Government’s bounce back loan scheme and £300 million of loans under the Government’s coronavirus business interruption loan scheme. There has also been an additional £100 million of lending through the Development Bank of Wales, which has been a useful contribution.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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Let us head over to New York with Geraint Davies.

Geraint Davies Portrait Geraint Davies [V]
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Thank you very much from over here in Wales.

The Development Bank of Wales has been found by the Welsh Affairs Committee to be much more effective in the delivery of coronavirus loans to business than high streets banks, which have been found to be unresponsive, delayed and risk-averse, and not to understand local businesses. Will the Secretary of State and the Minister impress on the Chancellor the need to provide more funding for the Development Bank of Wales and to import this excellent idea into England to help all British business?

David T C Davies Portrait David T. C. Davies
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I suppose it would not come as a great surprise to the hon. Gentleman, or to anyone who understands economics, as he does, that a high street bank is always going to be slightly more risk-averse than a bank backed by the UK Treasury. None the less, I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to the figures I gave earlier, which show that around £1.4 billion has been lent to businesses in Wales via high street banks utilising Government schemes, and £100 million has come via the Development Bank of Wales. This is not some sort of competition; we welcome every single pound that has been lent to Welsh businesses, no matter where it has come from.

Robbie Moore Portrait Robbie Moore (Keighley) (Con)
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What recent discussions he has had with the Welsh Government on covid-19 testing in Wales.

David T C Davies Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (David T. C. Davies)
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My hon. Friend will be aware that testing for covid in Wales is a matter for the Welsh Government and we respect their devolved responsibilities. I understand that the Welsh Government have decided to seek support from the UK Government for testing in Wales, which is a responsibility of the Welsh Government, so the Department of Health and Social Care has been working directly with them to offer the help that they need to deliver an efficient testing and analysis programme.

Robbie Moore Portrait Robbie Moore
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We have made huge progress in rapidly scaling up our testing capacity, and I have witnessed that myself in my constituency of Keighley, but there is always more that we can do. What steps is my hon. Friend taking to explore with the Welsh Government the benefits of repeat population testing, and, if that proves effective, how can it be scaled up across Wales and the rest of the UK?

David T C Davies Portrait David T. C. Davies
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As my hon. Friend will be aware, we have made enormous strides in increasing the amount of daily testing that is available, but it is not yet enough in either Wales or England, or elsewhere in the United Kingdom, to meet the huge rise in demand that we have seen over the past few weeks. The UK Government have set a target of a 500,000-a-day testing capacity for the end of October, and we are also increasing the number of testing sites to 500 by the end of October. Across Wales and the United Kingdom, Governments of all sorts of different political persuasions are working hard and working together to increase testing and to meet the demand.

Fay Jones Portrait Fay Jones (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)
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What steps the Government are taking to support people back into work in Wales.

Simon Hart Portrait The Secretary of State for Wales (Simon Hart)
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By the end of July, more than 400,000 Welsh jobs had been supported by the coronavirus job retention scheme, while £295 million has been provided to support 110,000 self-employed people. Since the start of March, that is at least 510,000 people in Wales who have been supported directly by the UK Government.

Fay Jones Portrait Fay Jones
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More than 77,000 meals were enjoyed in Brecon and Radnorshire as part of the eat out to help out scheme created by the UK Treasury. This provided a very welcome boost to the hospitality and tourism sectors in my constituency, which I particularly welcome as those sectors largely employ more women than men. Will my right hon. Friend join me in encouraging the Welsh Government to do their part by creating a similar scheme and getting more women back into the workplace?

Simon Hart Portrait Simon Hart
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My hon. Friend makes a really good point. Having visited her constituency twice, I think, in the recent past, I know just how much she has done to promote these schemes. Another value to the eat out to help out scheme is to remind everybody, whether members of the public or Members of this House, for that matter, of the importance of supporting local businesses in every possible way that we can as we climb out of these horrible few months. The work that my hon. Friend has done, and that of the Treasury, has been a pretty good start.

Simon Baynes Portrait Simon Baynes (Clwyd South) (Con)
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A key element in supporting people back into work is access to high-speed broadband, particularly in rural areas. Will my right hon. Friend join me in welcoming the first broadband USO—universal service obligation—connection in Wales, which was launched last week in Tregeiriog in the Ceiriog valley in my constituency as part of the Government’s across-the-UK USO scheme to improve broadband where it is currently running at a low level?

Simon Hart Portrait Simon Hart
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My hon. Friend is a solid champion of that cause. Some 3,500 premises in Clwyd South and over 200,000 in Wales have access to full fibre connection, but, as he says, this is only the start. For those businesses and individuals who really need high-quality broadband to operate, the clock is ticking in their favour. This will help jobs, families and prosperity in Wales.

Lucy Powell Portrait Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)
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What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on support for the steel industry in Wales during the covid-19 outbreak.

Simon Hart Portrait The Secretary of State for Wales (Simon Hart)
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The UK Government share the steel industry’s ambitions for a sustainable future in Wales. That is why the Business Secretary, the Chancellor and I worked to reach an agreement with Celsa that saved hundreds of jobs in Wales. I have frequent discussions with Cabinet colleagues about supporting the Welsh steel industry, especially in dealing with the impact of covid-19.

Lucy Powell Portrait Lucy Powell
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In the debate led by my hon. Friend the Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden) held in this House the other evening, we heard about how the Welsh steel sector has been so adversely affected by this economic crisis. The response from the Minister who replied was yet again, I am afraid, lots of warm words. When are we going to see more action, notwithstanding Celsa, to support this vital industry in Wales to save jobs and the economy?

Simon Hart Portrait Simon Hart
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I would like to think that warm words are better than cold words, but actions speak louder than words, at whatever temperature they come. The fact is that the UK Government absolutely recognise the importance of the sector. That is why we did the deal with Celsa and saved 800 jobs there, and that sends a message to other steel producers in Wales that we mean business. We are not just talking about the survival of the industry during covid; we are talking about having a significant steel manufacturing presence in Wales in five years, 10 years and 15 years. That is why we have continued these discussions. The Celsa deal ought to be a source of encouragement for everyone involved that actually, when it comes to it, we do mean business.

The Prime Minister was asked—
James Daly Portrait James Daly (Bury North) (Con)
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If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 16 September.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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I call the Prime Minister; congratulations on the christening.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson)
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Today marks 400 years since the sailing of the Mayflower, a reminder to us of the beginning of an enduring alliance between our two nations. Around 35 million Americans today trace their ancestry to a Mayflower passenger, and I am sure that the whole House will want to join me in marking this historic anniversary.

This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall have further such meetings later today.

James Daly Portrait James Daly
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On National Teaching Assistants Day, will the Prime Minister join me in thanking teachers, teaching assistants and all support staff for the extraordinary work they are undertaking to bring our children back to schools, colleges and nurseries in covid-secure environments throughout Bury, Ramsbottom and Tottington, and will he update the House on the implementation of the national tutoring programme, as many of the most vulnerable and disadvantaged children in my seat need this help at the earliest opportunity?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I strongly echo my hon. Friend’s congratulations and thanks to teachers, and just say that I believe passionately in the tutoring programme we are launching. We expect the first group of tutors to be supporting schools from November, with provision ramping up through the remainder of the autumn and spring term.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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I call Angela Rayner, who is deputy Labour leader.

Angela Rayner Portrait Angela Rayner (Ashton-under-Lyne) (Lab)
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Many people in the Chamber will think that the battle of Britain is today, but actually we marked the 80th anniversary of those veterans yesterday, and I want to put on record our thanks to all those who fought for our country in the past.

I want to start by reading to the Prime Minister a message that I have received from a man called Keir. Keir was not able to go to work today and his children could not go to school because his family had to wait for their coronavirus test results, despite the Prime Minister’s promise of results within 24 hours. Keir was able to do the right thing and self-isolate and work from home, but other people are not in this position, and many of them are the very people who were getting us through this crisis, such as the care workers, who I used to work alongside before I was elected to this House. The Prime Minister once earned £2,300 an hour; can he tell us the average hourly rate of a care worker in this country?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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I congratulate the hon. Lady on her elevation. She speaks of the constituent Keir, and I can tell her that—allegedly, apparently—he has had a negative test, and I do not know quite why he is not here. But 89% of those who have in-person tests get them the next day, and we are working very fast to turn around all the test requests that we get. I think that most people looking at the record of this country in delivering tests across the nation will see that that compares extremely well with any other European country. We have conducted more testing than any other European country, and that is why we are able to deliver tests and results in 80% of cases where we know the contacts.

The hon. Lady asks about care homes, and I can tell the House that today we are launching the winter care home action plan. She is right to raise the issue of care homes, and we are concerned about infection rates in care homes, but we will do everything we can to ensure that care homes and their workers are protected.

On the hon. Lady’s final point, I am proud that it is this Government who have instituted the national living wage to ensure that every worker in this country, including care home workers, is paid substantially more, thanks to the care and the work of the people of this country.

Angela Rayner Portrait Angela Rayner
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Ah, he’s finished. The whole country will have seen that the Prime Minister does not know how much a care worker earns—that was my question. The shameful fact is that the average wage in social care is barely more than £8 an hour and half our social care workers earn less than the real living wage. On his first day in office, the Prime Minister said that

“we will fix the crisis in social care once and for all with a clear plan we have prepared.”

Yet still there is no sign of the plan, and the additional funding to prevent infection will run out at the end of this month. So will the Prime Minister commit today to give our social care sector the funding that it needs now to get through the looming winter crisis?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Lady is asking an important point, and we are concerned about the rates of infection in care homes. Clearly, they have come down massively since we instituted the £600 million care home action plan. Tomorrow, we will be announcing a further winter care home action plan. It will not surprise her to know that we want to see a toughening up of the rules governing the movement of workers from one care home to another. We want to make sure that we protect care homes from further infections, and that is the right thing to do. I pay tribute to all the care home workers in this country for what they have done to help us bring down the disease. We will make sure, as we have done over the past few months, that they get the personal protective equipment that they need, that they get the guidance that they need and that they get the cash that they need, and that is what this Government are committed to doing.

Angela Rayner Portrait Angela Rayner
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I do welcome the Prime Minister’s comments, but I must say to him, get some skates on it. Those care workers are still not getting the PPE they need. They are still not getting the testing they need. I urge the Prime Minister to get on top of this problem now before the winter crisis hits.

The Prime Minister has put his faith in Operation Moonshot, but, meanwhile, on planet Earth, there were no NHS tests available for several high-infection areas, including for Tameside and Oldham in my own constituency. In July, the Government promised that there would be weekly tests in care homes, and they promised this for September, so can the Prime Minister confirm—yes or no—do all care homes in this country have weekly tests?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Yes, to the best of my knowledge, care homes in this country should get weekly tests for all staff members and tests every 28 days for the residents in the care homes. Of course the hon. Lady is right to express the frustration of people across this country about the massive demand there is now for tests—it has hugely increased. Everybody can see just in the past few days a colossal spike in the number of people who want tests and who want to ascertain whether they have coronavirus. What we are trying to do now is meet that demand at record speed. Just in the past couple of weeks, we have increased the capacity of our testing systems by 10%. We have four new labs that we are building in Newport, Newcastle, Charnwood and Brants Bridge. Just so she knows the scale of the ambition, we want to get up to 500,000 tests per day by the end of October. As I have said, that is a huge, huge number. I really do pay tribute to all those who are delivering it. I know that Opposition Members like to make these international comparisons, so I will just repeat that we are testing more than any other European country.

Angela Rayner Portrait Angela Rayner
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Well, Mr Speaker, I heard what the Prime Minister had to say, but I have to say to him that, yesterday, the chief executive of Care England said,

“We were promised weekly testing for staff. That has not been delivered.” Time and again, the Prime Minister makes promises and then breaks those promises. In June, he told this House that

“I can undertake…now to get all tests turned around in 24 hours by the end of June.”—[Official Report, 3 June 2020; Vol. 676, c. 839.]

The Government have had six months to get this right and yet the Prime Minister still cannot deliver on his promises. The Health Secretary said yesterday that it would take weeks to sort the situation out. Well, we do not have weeks. The Government’s latest figures show that there was an average of 62,000 people tested per day, not 500,000. The Prime Minister has said that testing capacity is at 300,000, but the average is 62,000 a day. How does he explain this?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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We have delivered on, as I say, the most thoroughgoing testing regime anywhere in Europe. We now have capacity; I think capacity has gone up from—sorry the number of tests per day conducted, not capacity, has gone up from 210,000 last week to 240,000 this week. Just to repeat the statistics, per thousand people, this country is testing 2.54, Germany 1.88, Spain 1.91 and France 1.89. In other words, we are delivering exactly what we said we would do. What is happening is that the British people, quite understandably, are responding to that system with a huge, huge surge in demand, so it is very important that everybody follows the guidance about when they should be getting a test—the guidance sent out by Public Health England, which has been sent to schools, and from NHS Test and Trace.

Angela Rayner Portrait Angela Rayner
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Once again, I see that the Prime Minister says that it is somebody else’s fault—it is the public who are using up the tests. These were the Government’s own figures and own targets that they failed on. The next time a man with covid symptoms drives from London to Durham, it will probably be for the nearest covid test.

I want to move on to another very serious issue. Alongside the tragic stories we have heard of relatives dying alone in care homes and people not being able to say goodbye to their loved ones, we have heard from mothers who have had to give birth without the support of their partners or their families. The Health Secretary yesterday said that the new guidance had been issued, but even under that new guidance, many birth partners will not be allowed to join until the moment of established labour, leaving women enduring difficult labours or, even worse, traumatic and devastating miscarriages alone without support. Will the Prime Minister agree to meet with me and my hon. Friends and work with us to ensure that no woman is forced to give birth without the support that they need?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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The hon. Lady is absolutely right to raise the issue that she does, and I know that Members across the House will share her feelings entirely. I totally agree that birth partners should be able to attend the birth. That is why we changed the guidance in the way that we did. Of course, I am very happy to encourage co-operation between her and my right hon. Friends in the Health Department to take the matter forward. I perfectly understand the point that she makes, and she is entirely right.

Angela Rayner Portrait Angela Rayner
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I welcome the Prime Minister’s comments; I think that was a yes, but I will follow it up. Thank you for those comments.

Infections are rising. The testing system is collapsing. When you are the Prime Minister, you cannot keep trying to blame other people for your own incompetence. We have the highest death toll in Europe, and we are on course for one of the worst recessions in the developed world. This winter, we are staring down the barrel of a second wave, with no plan for the looming crisis. People cannot say goodbye to their loved ones. Grandparents cannot see their grandchildren. Frontline staff cannot get the tests that they need. And what was the top priority for the covid war Cabinet this weekend? Restoring grouse shooting.

I suppose that is good news for people like the Prime Minister’s friend who paid for a luxury Christmas getaway to a Caribbean island and funded his leadership campaign, and just so happens to own two grouse moor estates. So Prime Minister, is this really your top priority?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

While the Labour Opposition have been consistently carping from the sidelines throughout this crisis and raising, frankly, issues that are tangential, if not scare stories about what is going on, we are getting on with delivering for the British public. We are not only massively ramping up. She has not contested any of my statistics today about the extent to which this country is now testing more than any other European country.

She has not disputed the massive acceleration in our programme. [Interruption.] I will answer the substance of her question, thank you very much. We are getting on with delivering on the priorities of the British people: getting us through this covid crisis; delivering on making our country safer, bringing forward measures to stop the early release of dangerous sexual and violent offenders, which I hope she will support; strengthening our Union, which in principle Opposition Front Benchers should support; and building more homes across this country and more affordable homes across this country, which she should support. That is in addition to recruiting more doctors and more nurses, and building more hospitals.

I do not think anybody is in any doubt that this Government are facing some of the most difficult dilemmas that any modern Government have had to face, but every day we are helping to solve them, thanks to the massive common sense of the British people, who are getting on with delivering our programme and our fight against coronavirus. It is with the common sense of the British people that we will succeed, and build back better and stronger than ever before.

Anthony Mangnall Portrait Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)
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The Prime Minister is rightly levelling up across the country, giving that issue both barrels, but I know that the south-west has often been overlooked. Will he reassure this House and Members from across the south-west that we will invest in digital and transport infrastructure, we will turbocharge opportunity and we will provide the growth that they need in south-west? To that effect, will he meet a delegation from the south-west to discuss the opportunities before us?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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It is precisely because we believe in my hon. Friend’s vision, which I share, of a great south-west that we are allocating considerable sums to the maintenance and improvement of school estates in his constituency; I might single out West Alvington Church of England Academy and Eden Park Primary and Nursery School, which will benefit from just some of this funding. As for his request, I will happily consult my diary.

Ian Blackford Portrait Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP)
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In his previous life as a Daily Telegraph journalist, this Prime Minister wrote:

“Devolution is causing all the strains that its opponents predicted, and in allowing the Scots to make their own laws, while free-riding on English taxpayers, it is simply unjust.”

So let me ask the Prime Minister two specific questions, which need two specific answers. First, does he still think that devolution in Scotland is unjust? Secondly, where does he believe full spending and decision-making powers over our NHS, education, infrastructure, economic development, culture and sport should be held—is it with Scotland’s Parliament or with Westminster?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
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Obviously, there is a very considerable, and has been a massive, devolution of powers to Scotland, and the Scottish people had the opportunity to vote for more in 2014, as the right hon. Gentleman will recall, in a once-in-a-generation event. They chose decisively to reject that. I think he said it was a once-in-a-generation event as well. They now have the opportunity to vote to support the further devolution of powers in the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill, and I hope that he will join us in the Lobby in support of that.

Ian Blackford Portrait Ian Blackford
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My goodness, what nonsense. I never once talked about “a once-in-a-generation”, and the Prime Minister should withdraw that.

As usual, the Prime Minister is all over the place. He does not remember what he has written, he does not understand his own Brexit deal and he does not even know what is in the Internal Market Bill—I will tell him. Clause 46 allows this Tory Government to bypass Scotland’s Parliament and take decisions on the NHS, education, infrastructure, economic development, culture and sport—it is a blatant power grab. We all know what the Tory Back Benchers are saying behind closed doors: that the Prime Minister is incompetent, that he cannot govern and that they want him away before the next election. Scotland’s legacy will be in a being a fair, decent, law-abiding, independent nation state. Will the Prime Minister’s legacy be leading the UK to break international law and break this failing Union?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am not quite clear from that question whether the right hon. Gentleman is in favour of the Union or not. I take it from his hostility to me that he wants to support the Union. So do I. The best thing he can do is to support the UK Internal Market Bill, which buttresses a surge of powers transferred to the devolved Administrations in more than 70 areas. I should just remind him that in the recent coronavirus crisis £5.4 billion has been transferred to be spent in Scotland as a result of Barnett consequentials, and I am proud to say that 70% of the testing that has taken place in Scotland has been supported by the UK Government. If he is a convert to the Union, which is what I take from his question, that is just one of the reasons he should back it.

Mark Logan Portrait Mark  Logan  (Bolton North East)  (Con)
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Please allow me to push back against what has just been said. The Prime Minister has done a stellar job in fending off economic depression right across the United Kingdom, including Scotland. Now, my worry turns to a psychological depression. Tighter restrictions have forced more businesses to shut in Bolton and, while 13,900 jobs were saved through furlough, more needs to be done. I invite the Prime Minister, when the time is right, to pound the streets of Bolton North East and, before then, to send in the pennies from the Exchequer and more testing kits from Health.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Yes indeed, we will do that, and I am delighted to say that, in addition to the £40 billion we have spent on the coronavirus job retention scheme and the £130 billion plan for jobs, Bolton will receive at least £500,000 from the towns fund to spend on its high street and community.

Ed Davey Portrait Sir Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD)
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Research by the Disabled Children’s Partnership shows that three quarters of families with disabled children had their care support stopped during lockdown. The Coronavirus Act 2020 is partly to blame, as it relaxed the duties to assess and meet the needs of disabled people. As the father of a disabled child and a patron of the Disability Law Service, I have seen legal advice that suggests that the Prime Minister’s Government broke international law when the Coronavirus Act reduced the rights of disabled people. So before the House is asked to renew the Coronavirus Act, will he meet me to discuss how we can protect the right to care of disabled people and act lawfully?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

First, I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on securing the leadership of his party. I must say that I am not aware of that particular allegation about the legal effect of the Coronavirus Act, and I would be only too happy to write to him very shortly to clarify the matter.

Nigel Mills Portrait Nigel  Mills  (Amber Valley)  (Con)
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The residents of Amber Valley were relieved yesterday when a proposal for a 1,000-strong festival was finally withdrawn, because it had become clear that the council did not have the power to resist it despite the ongoing public health crisis. Will the Prime Minister ensure that, while covid restrictions remain in place, councils can resist such festivals in the interest of public health?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my hon. Friend for that important question, because I believe that it illuminates a question that councils are asking themselves. I wish to affirm very strongly that they do have the power to stop such events in the interest of public health, and that the council has taken the right decision.

Alistair Carmichael Portrait Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)
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Last week the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland said that the UK Internal Market Bill would breach our obligations under international law. Yesterday the Advocate General for Scotland said that the Secretary of State was wrong to say that. Today the Secretary of State says that the Advocate General was wrong to say that he was wrong. It is of course possible that they are both right in saying that the other is wrong, but surely an important matter such as this requires clarity. For that reason, will the Prime Minister now undertake to publish the advice he has had from all his Law Officers so that the House can make an informed decision on the question of legality, come Monday?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the right hon. Gentleman. I think he asked substantially the same question last week. As he knows, we do not publish the Attorney General’s advice—Governments do not normally publish such advice—but what I can certainly say is what I have said to the right hon. Gentleman the leader of the Scottish nationalists: that, of course, this Bill is intended to uphold the economic, political and territorial integrity of the United Kingdom, and I believe it should be supported by every Member of this House.

Selaine Saxby Portrait Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con)
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My right hon. Friend has always highlighted the importance of gigabit connectivity, and digital infrastructure has been vital in keeping us connected throughout the pandemic. Could he update the House on the Government’s progress towards the roll-out of gigabit broadband across the country, and in particular whether the £5 billion of Government funding is being used to connect hard-to-reach areas like those in my North Devon constituency?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Yes, I can. I thank my hon. Friend very much. We are rolling out full-fibre broadband to the North Moor area, investing £10 million in partnership with the local authority and gearing up to invest over £30 million across Devon and Somerset to target 70,000 premises in her constituency that do not have good enough connectivity.

Ian Byrne Portrait Ian Byrne (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab)
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The figures released this week by the Trussell Trust forecast that we will give out six emergency food parcels every minute this winter. Will the Prime Minister commit to two urgent measures to tackle this humanitarian disaster, which is happening in all our communities? First, will he commit to an additional £250 million investment in local welfare assistance schemes to bring England in line with the rest of the UK, as requested by the Children’s Trust and the Trussell Trust; and, secondly, will he meet me and partner organisations as a matter of urgency to discuss bringing the right to food into UK law?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Gentleman. What the Government are doing is, of course, supporting local councils to the tune of £3.7 billion for the extra needs occasioned by coronavirus; £380 million has gone into supporting food, with meals for pupils or for young people who need it; and a massive programme of investment—a £9 billion investment—to lift up universal credit to support the neediest in our society. But I can tell him that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor will continue to apply the maximum creativity to putting our arms around the British people as we go forward through this crisis.

Joy Morrissey Portrait Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con)
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Does my right hon. Friend agree that this Government’s Internal Market Bill will protect our United Kingdom, strengthen our mission to level up and back our negotiators?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I could not have put it better myself.

Wera Hobhouse Portrait Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)
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In the week in which the Prime Minister announced the Government’s new strategy on obesity, the eating disorder charity Beat experienced a 165% increase in the number of people contacting its support services. I am pleased that the Prime Minister is focused on obesity, which is a very serious national health issue, but as the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on eating disorders, I have been contacted by many who suffer from eating disorders who have approached me with concerns about certain aspects of his obesity strategy and the adverse effects it would have on them. Will the Prime Minister take these concerns seriously and commit to a meeting between sufferers of an eating disorder, myself and the relevant Minister in his Health team?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Yes. I am acutely conscious that there are no glib, easy answers in this area of public policy, and I happily undertake that the relevant Minister should meet the hon. Lady as fast as possible to understand her concerns and the concerns of her constituents.

Steve Double Portrait Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con)
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Regional airports are going to play a crucial role in our recovery from the pandemic and in levelling up our country, but many of them, such as Cornwall Airport Newquay, have been very hard hit not only because of the lockdown, but because of the demise of Flybe. There is a very real concern that if our smaller airports close at this time, they may never open again, which will make the Government’s levelling-up agenda even harder to deliver. So could my right hon. Friend please ensure that our regional airports get all the help that they need, whether that be through grants or the Government backing more public sector obligation routes, and would he carefully look at reducing air passenger duty, particularly on domestic flights?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Yes. I thank my hon. Friend for sticking up in the way that he does for Cornwall Airport Newquay—a vital airport, which I have happily used many times. We will continue to consider applications for public service obligations on routes into Newquay and elsewhere. We will certainly look at air passenger duty, although it would be wrong of me to make any fiscal commitment at this stage.

Rachael Maskell Portrait Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)
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The Prime Minister holds the power to save jobs or sacrifice the livelihoods of my constituents. Currently, 17,700 people living in my constituency of York Central are furloughed; their future rests in his hands. Next month, 22% of my constituents could lose their jobs and futures unless furlough is extended. Reformed, yes; more flexible, a must; targeted, absolutely. Extend and review is the only way forward. My question is: will the Prime Minister do that?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I hope the hon. Lady is not saying that she simply wants to extend the furlough scheme, because I do not believe that that is the right way—the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner) is shaking her head. I do not think that is sensible. We need to get people off furlough and into work, and that is what the Government are doing. That is why we have the £2 billion kickstart fund, in particular to help young people into work, and why we have the job retention bonus to encourage employers to take people back on and continue to employ people. To answer the point of the hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) directly, we will continue to apply, as I said just now, the maximum creativity—as we have—in putting our arms round the workforce of the UK.

Gagan Mohindra Portrait Mr Gagan Mohindra (South West Hertfordshire) (Con)
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I recently visited the beautiful Micklefield Hall wedding venue in Sarratt, run by Anna and Jamie Rankin, to listen to their concerns about the wedding industry. Would the Prime Minister consider changing the number of attendees from a blanket limit of 30 to a fairer system that allows venues to hold a percentage— say, 50%—of their usual licenced activity? That would allow many venues to bounce back and keep on their furloughed staff.

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I so understand and appreciate my hon. Friend’s constituents’ concerns. Similar concerns will have been raised with other Members from across the House, not just about the weddings businesses but about many other businesses that are facing restrictions as a result of the social distancing rules that we have had to bring in. The trouble is that, with all these things, there is an increase in the risk of spread and contagion. We simply have to balance that risk against what we are seeing now with the spread of the virus. I must reluctantly say to my hon. Friend that, although we will work as fast as possible to get our whole economy open and take all these restrictions off, the way to do that is for the whole country to work together, as we have done so far, to enforce social distancing, obey the basic rules about hands, face, space; getting a test if you have symptoms; and the rule of six, indoors and outdoors. That is the way that we will beat this virus. That is the way we will control it and allow weddings and all other sectors to open up again.

Stephen Doughty Portrait Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I, too, have had constituents in Cardiff South and Penarth contact me with serious concerns about testing. It is clear that the problems originate not in Wales, but with the UK testing and online system, which is leading to rationing, chaos and confusion, and all the while the virus spreads further. We are told that the Prime Minister’s chum Cummings has a seeing room. Well, it is clearly not working, because this should have been seen coming months ago, like the exams fiasco. The truth is that the Prime Minister has not got control of this. When is he going to get a grip?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Once again, the Opposition are at risk of undermining the colossal work of NHS Test and Trace. Let me give the hon. Gentleman one statistic: just in the last week, the average distance that people have had to go for a test has come down from 6 or 7 miles to 5 miles. We are continuing to improve this system the whole time, and I remind the House and those who want to run it down that we are conducting more tests than any other European country, testing more people per thousand population than any other European—[Interruption.] Those are the facts. He doesn’t like it; all he wants to do is score party political points.

Dehenna Davison Portrait Dehenna Davison (Bishop Auckland) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Every day, I receive messages from Bishop Auckland residents about crime and how they want to see us politicians taking a tougher stance. My own history involves learning about violent crime in a way I never wished to learn about it, and that is part of the reason that I stand here today. The first duty of any Government is to protect the public they serve, but for too long our criminal justice system has fallen short of the mark. Will my right hon. Friend assure me that the Government he leads will take all steps necessary to keep criminals off our streets, to crack down on crime and to keep the public safe?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Yes, and that is why we are not only recruiting another 20,000 police officers, I think about 5,000 of whom have already been recruited, but also—[Interruption.] The Opposition Front Benchers are making a noise. We are also introducing measures to stop the early release of serious sexual and violent offenders. I take it from the noises I hear from the Opposition that they approve of that and will support us in the Lobby.

Martyn Day Portrait Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Given that the 1950s-born women lost their case at the Court of Appeal yesterday, any restitution for the women affected, 350,000 of whom are in Scotland, needs political action. What will the Prime Minister now do to honour his own words from last year and “return to this issue with fresh vigour and new eyes”and see what he can do to sort it out?

Boris Johnson Portrait The Prime Minister
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will have to study the judgment in detail. I will be happy to write to the hon. Member.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

In order to allow the safe exit of hon. Members participating in this item of business and the safe arrival of those participating in the next, I suspend the House for a few minutes.

12:36
Sitting suspended.

Sentencing White Paper

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Commons Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
12:40
Robert Buckland Portrait The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Robert Buckland)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

With permission, Mr Speaker, I will make a statement on the Government’s plans to reform the system of sentencing in England and Wales. This morning, I laid before Parliament a White Paper entitled “A Smarter Approach to Sentencing” and I wanted to come to the House to outline the measures contained within it.

The first duty of any Government is to protect their people, but the complex system of sentencing in England and Wales does not always command the confidence of the public. At one end of the spectrum of offending, there are serious sexual and violent criminals who, by automatic operation of the law, leave prison halfway through their sentence. We are going to ensure that more of these serious offenders stay in custody for longer.

There are also criminals who, while serving time for their offence, may become a danger to the public but who currently would be eligible for automatic release. We are acting to prevent fewer of these offenders from leaving prison without being assessed as safe by Parole Board experts. These measures will keep offenders who pose a risk to the public off the streets for longer and help to restore public confidence that robust sentences are executed in a way that better reflects the gravity of the crimes committed.

At the other end of the spectrum, protecting the public from the effects of lower-level offending means finding new ways to break cycles of crime—to prevent a revolving door of short custodial sentences that we know offer little rehabilitative value. Criminals in that category often have chaotic lifestyles and their offending can be driven by substance misuse, poor mental health or learning difficulties. They often have limited education, few job prospects and experience generational patterns of offending.

Rather than continuing to send them back and forth to prison—doing the same thing but expecting a different result—we instead want to empower the sentencing system to use more effective community sentencing to get them off drugs and into the jobs that we know can lead them to a better life. We will do that by better identifying individual needs, providing treatment options where appropriate and utilising technology, such as sobriety tags, to drive compliance. These measures will support offenders to change their lifestyles for good and, in the process, protect the public from the ongoing effects of their crimes.

The reforms will not work unless they are underpinned by a world-class probation system that can understand and implement sentencing properly, backed up by a high-quality probation workforce. I pay tribute to the probation service and everyone who works within it to supervise offenders. We have set ourselves an ambitious target to recruit 1,000 new trainee probation officers in 2020-21, and over the next few years we are determined to invest in the skills, capability and ways of working that probation officers need to do their job to the best standard.

Within the new probation arrangements, we will unify sentence management under the National Probation Service to further grow confidence between probation and the courts, with which there is a much closer relationship than under the old model. The 12 new probation regions will have a new dynamic framework, making it easier to deliver rehabilitation services through voluntary and specialist organisations. We will legislate to give probation practitioners greater flexibility to take action where offenders’ rehabilitative needs are not being met or where they pose a risk to the public. These measures will empower probation services to be more effective at every juncture of the criminal justice system.



The White Paper also contains measures to reduce stubbornly high reoffending rates by utilising GPS technology to drive further compliance, and to make it easier for offenders to get jobs by reducing the period after which some sentences can be considered spent for the purposes of criminal records checks for non-sensitive roles. In the youth system, it puts flexibility into the hands of judges to keep violent young offenders in custody for longer, while at the same time allowing courts to pass sentences that are tailored to the rehabilitative needs of each young person.

The White Paper builds on the current sentencing framework to create a system that will be much better equipped to do its job effectively, and throughout this document there are contributions from other ministerial colleagues right across Whitehall. That is an acknowledgement of the cross-Government approach that will be required if we are going to make a success of these reforms. We have got to come together to fulfil our manifesto commitments, to bring in tougher sentences, to tackle drug-related crime, to treat addictions, to improve employment opportunities for offenders, to review the parole system and much more.

A smarter approach to sentencing will grow confidence in the criminal justice system’s ability to deal robustly with the worst offenders and reduce the risk of harm to the public. It will also be smart enough to do the things that will really bring down crime in the longer term. I look forward to bringing its various measures through Parliament. I commend the White Paper and this statement to the House.

David Lammy Portrait Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)
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I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement. We need to scrutinise the changes the Secretary of State has announced today in detail, but I will start by saying that Labour’s priority is always to keep the British public safe. The Secretary of State will remember that it was a Labour Government in 2003 which introduced compulsory life sentences and minimum sentences for over 150 offences. It was a Labour Government in 2010 which raised the minimum prison sentence for knife killers from 15 to 25 years in the wake of the death of Ben Kinsella, and it was a Labour Government which obliged judges to hand down 30-year minimum sentences for murders involving firearms and explosives. There is no doubt that Ellie Gould’s killer got too short a sentence for the horrific crime that he committed. I praise Carole Gould’s fortitude and dignity amid such a horrendous loss. Her campaigners commanded cross-party support and the Labour party stands with her today.

We are a party that welcomes strengthening sentencing when it is necessary to protect the British public. It is in that spirit that Labour accepts that there are some exceptional cases in which a whole-life sentence might be deemed appropriate for a young person over the age of 18. The murderer who helped to plan the senseless terrorist attack on Manchester Arena is one such case. We will need to carefully scrutinise exactly how the Government’s proposed changes are written into law, of course, and it is important to remember that, even without the changes the Secretary of State is announcing today, no one leaves prison for crimes as serious as these if the Parole Board is not satisfied that they are no longer a danger to society. It is also the case that the general presumption in criminal law is that when someone is younger there is more opportunity for them to reform, and removing the opportunity for parole can also remove incentives for offenders to rehabilitate and behave well in prison. We will come back to that, I am sure, when he comes forward with the legislation. I hope the Secretary of State will confirm that these changes, while appropriate for the most extreme cases, will not be applied gratuitously, and that it would be wrong to abandon the general presumption in criminal law that when people are younger there is more opportunity for redemption and to turn their life around.

There are other announcements today that we welcome. We welcome the reforming of criminal records disclosure to reduce the time in which offenders must declare offences to employers, and that is sorely needed. It is something that I called for in my review, and may I pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Warley (John Spellar), who is in his place and who has campaigned on these issues for many years?

I also welcome the Secretary of State’s new pilots for problem-solving courts. He will recall that problem-solving courts were introduced by a Labour Government and cut back by a Conservative Government. I am glad to see them back, but why are they just pilots? Can we not go further? We know they work for people with serious addictions and problems who come back into the system again and again. It is also very good to see the Ministry of Justice hearing our calls—again, I raised this in the Lammy review—for offenders who need greater support because they have neurodivergent conditions such as autism, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and dyslexia. I am sure the whole House welcomes that we have finally arrived at that place.

We welcome the Government’s announcement that they will recruit more probation officers after their U-turn on the failed experiment with privatisation by the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling). It missed targets and cost taxpayers an extra £460 million. We will continue to hold the Government to account as we get back to having a fully national probation service.

Labour also welcomes the Government using this White Paper as an opportunity to increase the maximum penalty for causing death by dangerous driving, as well as the maximum penalty for causing death by careless driving while under the influence of drink and drugs.

Sentencing reform is needed, but on its own it is not enough. Ministry of Justice data show that between 9 June and 31 July this year, nearly a third of prisoners—2,400 people—were released homeless or to an unknown circumstance. How will longer sentences protect the public, if people continue to be released homeless and without the chance to turn their lives around?

The announcement around GPS tagging in the community is welcome, but what steps are the Government taking to ensure that services exist to support former offenders into work? Why is there still no cross-departmental plan to reduce reoffending and enable the reintegration of prison leavers? Does the Secretary of State plan to publish one within the next three months, as recommended by the Public Accounts Committee last week? Does he share the concerns of the Victims’ Commissioner that recent changes to the Crown Prosecution Service guidance could lead to the CPS having the freedom to drop difficult cases, leaving victims feeling cheated if the current system is overstretched?

This statement has come in a week where a Secretary of State who took an oath to uphold the rule of law has let his office and the system down. The whole country has watched him squirm in his seat as he has stood with the Prime Minister. I hope he recognises the importance of the days ahead, as he brings this White Paper back to the Chamber.

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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It was all going so well, and then the right hon. Gentleman had to spoil it with an ill-judged, ill-timed and wholly inappropriate intervention. May I remind him that as a practitioner, for years I had to endure a Labour Government that passed with incontinence criminal justice Act after criminal justice Act, creating the chaos with sentencing reform that I am now having to deal with? With the greatest respect to him, I will take no lectures about a Labour Government who made automatic early release at the halfway term the norm for so many sentences. That is the wrong that we are righting now as a result of the reforms that we will introduce.

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for how he has sensibly engaged with the important issues about the rehabilitation of offenders. I am particularly pleased by the warm welcome for the work we will do on neurodivergent conditions and disorders. That has been a long-standing passion and commitment of mine. Autism and ADHD are real conditions that affect thousands of people in our country. I have had personal experience in the criminal justice system of representing people with those conditions, and I think we can do better. That is why we will take action on that.

I can reassure the right hon. Gentleman about the cross-Government work on offender employment. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, who is deeply committed to increasing the number of offenders in work. We are working on plans and a cross-Government strategy. The committee is chaired by the Prime Minister, which exemplifies the Government’s deep and fundamental dedication to this bold agenda.

I welcome the other comments that the right hon. Gentleman has made, and it is in that spirit of constructive engagement that I am sure we will work together to make sense of criminal justice after years of failure, mainly by the Government of which he was a member.

Robert Neill Portrait Sir Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)
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I warmly congratulate the Lord Chancellor on an excellent and very well-balanced statement, which shows his own experience as a practitioner in these matters. A number of the themes that the White Paper addresses are ones that the Justice Select Committee has picked up on a number of occasions. I look forward to progress being made on those. I particularly welcome the recognition that protection of the public and rehabilitation of those who can be rehabilitated are not mutually exclusive. However, will he also use the opportunity of the White Paper to engender a wider debate across society as a whole about the purpose of sentencing, and the purposes of imprisonment and community sentences, to give both the public and sentencers greater confidence in the suite of measures available and create a broader-based, better-informed understanding of the complexities of the tasks that people in the justice system grapple with day to day?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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I am grateful to the Chairman of the Justice Committee. We all know his long and deep knowledge of the system as a practitioner. He is right to remind us of the purposes of sentencing. He will see in the White Paper a lot of reference to public protection issues—protecting the public from harm, but also protecting the public from crime. The two go together, and one is served, I would submit, by effective prison sentences, while the second is served by rehabilitation through the community options that can make such a difference with the right support.

Joanna Cherry Portrait Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)
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I thank the Lord Chancellor for his customary courtesy in affording me advance sight of his statement. However, it is a little difficult to stomach rhetoric about how tough this Government are on law breakers when only a week ago a Minister stood at the Dispatch Box and told us that they intended to break international law, albeit in a limited and specific way. Even the Lord Chancellor seems to think that, when it comes to his Government colleagues, the rule of law can be watered down to allow law breaking that he finds acceptable.

I want to make it clear that in Scotland the law applies equally to everyone, whether they are a Government Minister or an ordinary member of the public. I wonder whether the Lord Chancellor agrees that it should be the same in England and Wales. That is where this sentencing White Paper applies; sentencing is devolved to Scotland. However, the position of the SNP is clear. We want to work hard with the UK Government and European friends to make sure that all communities in these islands are protected from terrorism and serious crime.

There are elements of the White Paper to be welcomed, including the offer of treatment for vulnerable prisoners with mental health and addiction problems, and the proposals to encourage courts to pass community sentences for less serious offences, following the Scottish model. However, I would express caution about giving whole-of-life sentences to teenagers. Expert evidence shows that young people are more likely to be open to rehabilitation. That is important for the public, because every time we manage to rehabilitate or deradicalise someone, it makes the public a little bit safer. Prisoners who know they will never be released have little incentive not to kill or maim not only other prisoners, but prison officers. I would like to know that the Lord Chancellor has taken cognisance of those factors. The Scottish Sentencing Council is consulting on its third draft guideline on sentencing young people. Are there any proposals to consult on this issue in England and Wales as well?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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I am grateful to the hon. and learned Lady. With regard to the latter matters, the Sentencing Council here in England and Wales has done a lot of work on sentencing of young offenders. Any further guidelines are matters for that council, but perhaps she and I together can explore that with its chair.

I note the hon. and learned Lady’s point about young offenders, which echoes what the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), the shadow Justice Secretary, said. We absolutely will preserve the principle that the sentencing of young offenders is a separate legal regime from the sentencing of adults. Quite clearly there are differences, and the welfare issue must be paramount. Having said that, there will be, sadly, some egregious and particularly extreme examples of serious criminality that may merit the imposition of the most serious sentence available to the court. What I am proposing is that the courts would have a discretion in relation to those under 21, as opposed to their being mandated to impose such a severe sentence. That element of discretion is at the heart of what I am trying to achieve here: a flexible, balanced system.



In terms of balance, I assure the hon. and learned Lady that when it comes to the rule of law, both within Her Majesty’s Government and our country as a whole, I, like her, yield to no one in my belief in equality before the law. I also believe in maintaining a balance and that is what I am doing every day.

Scott Benton Portrait Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con)
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The residents of Blackpool South are fed up with the soft liberal approach to criminal justice that has failed victims, weakened communities and seen public confidence in the system eroded decade after decade. Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that we need a new approach to sentencing that puts the public and victims first and ensures that serious offenders are locked up for longer?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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My hon. Friend is right. He represents the proud community of Blackpool, where I know that many law-abiding citizens are frankly fed up with the position they find themselves in. They want reassurance and to have confidence in the system. The proposals we are setting out today follow on from our manifesto commitments that allowed us to have my hon. Friend in this House—thanks to the good people of Blackpool South—and those commitments will be honoured.

Ruth Jones Portrait Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab)
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Local voluntary sector organisations, including many in Newport West, play a vital role in providing the type of support mentioned by the Lord Chancellor around rehab, drugs and mental health. Despite that, Ministers have admitted that the involvement of the voluntary sector in probation was lost in the mix when it came to previous provision. A number of small charities have made it clear that the new system will be just as bureaucratic and costly as the old one, so they are opting out. What action will the Minister take to ensure a strong role for the voluntary sector in Newport West and across the country in delivering his plans?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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I thank the hon. Lady, whose constituency, of course, I know well—I appeared as a practitioner many, many times at the Crown court at Newport, both prosecuting and defending, and I know the community that she serves. I say to her and all those smaller organisations that it is my fervent hope and intention to make sure that they are involved in what we call the dynamic framework. I have made it very clear to my officials that I expect to see the small specialist organisations at the table. She is right to say that previously, the tendering process tended to squeeze out the smaller players. That is wrong. I have seen well over 150 small organisations already apply to get involved, and both I and the Minister of State, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Lucy Frazer), will be taking a very close interest in this matter. If there are any further concerns, the hon. Lady should not hesitate to write to me.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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We head up to Harrow, to Flight Officer Blackman.

Bob Blackman Portrait Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con) [V]
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Thank you, Mr Speaker. I warmly welcome my right hon. and learned Friend’s statement. He will be well aware that my constituency suffered a spike in extremely violent aggravated burglaries prior to covid-19. My constituents want to know what steps he will take to ensure that the new sentences he is announcing are actually awarded by judges, and that criminals who perpetrate crimes against the person are not only brought to justice but punished and kept in prison, so that the sentences meet the crime.

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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My hon. Friend is right to raise an issue that I know many of his constituents in Harrow East have faced. I assure him that when it comes to dwelling house burglary, which is not just a crime against property but a crime against the person, because it robs somebody of their wellbeing, we are going to change the criteria so that only in exceptional circumstances would a court disapply the minimum three-year term that “three strikes” domestic burglars will receive. That will see a greater number of those people serving longer behind bars.

Chris Bryant Portrait Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
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There has been a terrible rise over the last 10 years in assaults on emergency workers, with ambulance workers being sexually assaulted, punched, spat at, stabbed—everything. That is why I introduced private Member’s legislation a couple of years ago: the Assaults on Emergency Workers (Offences) Act 2018. Unfortunately, magistrates are still saying to police officers, “I’m sorry, but I just think that a bit of violence is in the way of your work.” I hope the Lord Chancellor will say that that is nonsense. All prosecuting authorities have to take this far more seriously, because the sentencing guidelines still have not been changed, and the number of cases is still rising. I wholly support the sudden conversion of Ministers who violently opposed my Bill when I introduced it and said that they did not want it to be a two-year maximum sentence. I welcome their conversion on the road to Damascus, but I want to ensure that this law is actually used; otherwise, this will continue.

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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The hon. Member is to be applauded for his work on that important legislation. Our commitment to double the maximum term is set out in the White Paper, and that is what we will do. He is right to talk about prosecution and practice within the courts and our magistrates system. I do not know about the road to Damascus, but I have been on the road to Tonypandy in his constituency quite a few times, and I know what his constituents would say to me. They would expect prison officers, police officers and blue light workers to have that protection. Let us not forget that it is not just about the provisions in that Act; it is about the law on assault generally and the aggravated circumstances that a court can take into account in increasing sentences, but he makes a powerful point.

Desmond Swayne Portrait Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
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I hope my right hon. and learned Friend keeps his balance, but will he address eye-watering costs such as the £456,000 clocked up by Andrew Harper’s killers? That cannot be right, can it?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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My right hon. Friend knows that everybody in this country is equal before the law, and fair trials have to happen. Legal costs are, of course, paid to the people who represent criminals or accused people. I take his point about ensuring that our legal aid system is efficient and that money is not wasted, but the fundamental principle of the right to a fair trial is something that I will defend and that I think he would agree with as well.

Tony Lloyd Portrait Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab) [V]
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There is much in the Lord Chancellor’s statement that I strongly welcome, as a former police and crime commissioner. I want to raise an issue that I know he is well aware of. In my constituency, there are many people who were victims of evil men who sexually abused them. Those women will carry that burden for the rest of their lives. It is incomprehensible that, once the perpetrators have finished their term before probation and been released, there is nothing to stop them confronting their victims. The victims could walk round the corner and find their attacker in front of them. Can the Lord Chancellor assure me that, as part of the White Paper, we can look at how that can be prevented in future, even if it cannot be done retrospectively?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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I am grateful to the hon. Member for raising that. We have met to discuss this matter. It seems to me that existing types of order—for example, crime prevention orders and serious crime prevention orders—could potentially be used, particularly where somebody has completed their term of imprisonment and licence and therefore the probation service’s involvement has come to an end. I will welcome further engagement with him, because he not only speaks for past victims; he speaks for people whose voice has yet to be heard and whose voice must be heard if we are to effectively protect the victims of sexual abuse.

Caroline Johnson Portrait Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
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They say that an Englishman’s home is his castle, and it is certainly a place where all people should feel safe and secure. As a result, when someone burgles a home, they do not just take possessions; they violate a person’s safety in their own home. Can my right hon. and learned Friend assure me that his new sentencing guidelines will ensure that the people who commit these crimes are appropriately punished and appropriately rehabilitated and that the public will be protected from further occurrences?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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My hon. Friend is right to echo the comments I made about burglary being a crime against the person. She will have heard my observations about strengthening the safeguards of the “three strikes and you’re out” burglary minimum term of three years, which will mean that a greater proportion of that type of offender will now serve longer in custody. We are also doing two strikes for knife possession because we want to send a clear message that this type of criminality will not be tolerated.

Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
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I thank the Lord Chancellor for his diligence and wisdom in this statement. I welcome the news that child killers are to be held longer and that the automatic release of violent and dangerous criminals is to end, but will he further confirm that intervention measures will be in place for young men who are drawn into drug deliveries and so on and who need to be kept away from hardened criminals in prison, as a method of giving them space, a fresh start and a true rehabilitation purpose?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s comments, and I am grateful to him. He makes a very interesting point about young offenders. I am keen to make sure that people who are sucked in—they might be quite young and themselves victims—do not end up becoming criminals themselves. That is why reforms to the remand system for young offenders and alternatives to immediate prosecution, in particular for victims of modern day slavery or abuse, are so important. We are seeing with the county lines operations some really good work by the police in making that distinction between the child as abused victim and the child as criminal. We will keep drawing that distinction in a sensible and sensitive way.

Jonathan Gullis Portrait Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con)
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My hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell (James Sunderland) and I are extremely grateful to our right hon. and learned Friend for picking up our Desecration of War Memorials Bill in his White Paper. Can he confirm to the people of Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke that the law will be changed as soon as practically possible to make sure that those who insult the memory of our glorious dead can be given sentences that fit their abhorrent crimes?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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I pay tribute to my hon. Friends for their campaign to make sure that the law properly reflects the damage that can be caused to the national consciousness and the wellbeing of communities when war graves, religious graves and important memorials are desecrated. In the White Paper, we have committed to taking up his challenge, and we will reform the law in the year ahead.

Barbara Keeley Portrait Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab) [V]
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Thirteen-year-old Jack Worwood was walking along the pavement on his way to play football with his friends when he was struck by a vehicle driven by an uninsured driver at nearly three times the speed limit. The driver, Liam Wilson, fled the scene and Jack died the next day. Liam Wilson was sentenced two weeks ago and is likely to serve in prison only two years of a six-year sentence. Jack’s family members in my constituency are devastated by the lack of justice. I am glad the Government are finally acting to ensure longer sentences in these cases, but can the Lord Chancellor tell me when he expects these changes to come into force, and what reassurance can he give Jack’s family that the Government will look again at the leniency of the sentence in this case?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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The hon. Lady raises a tragic and appalling case. I would need to know a little more about the index offence. It may well be a matter that the family can refer to the Attorney General under the unduly lenient sentence scheme, if the offence is within the purview of that scheme. I know that she will not hesitate to advise the family of that. On the general point she makes, it is important for us all to remember all the victims of those who cause death by dangerous driving. I think today of Violet-Grace Youens, whose parents have assiduously campaigned for a change in the law. Even if they cannot bring back their beloved daughter or turn back the clock, their campaign has achieved a change in the law that I believe will give greater justice to future families. This law will be changed with legislation that will come during this Session. I can make the commitment now that we will make the necessary change in tribute not just to Violet-Grace, but to all the families and those who have suffered so much.

Gagan Mohindra Portrait Mr Gagan Mohindra (South West Hertfordshire) (Con)
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I thank the Lord Chancellor for the White Paper. It reaffirms my belief that the Conservative party is the party of law and order. As he will be aware, the Ministry of Justice published a report last year that showed that the cost of reoffending was £18.1 billion per year, not to mention the emotional and psychological harm to victims of crime. Can he give us further details on how we are focusing on breaking the cycle of reoffending?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend is right to mention the importance of that depressing cycle of reoffending, and he will see in the White Paper ready acknowledgement of some of the drivers of that: drug addiction, alcohol addiction, the lack of stable accommodation, no work. The three things that I believe offer the way to avoid a life of crime are a home, a job and a friend, and that might be treatment or probation support. That is what we are committed to in the White Paper; that is what this Government are going to achieve.

Wera Hobhouse Portrait Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)
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The Lord Chancellor has already partly answered this question, but can he expand on it, as currently one of the biggest problems is overcrowding in prisons and failing to rehabilitate enough people? Can he also address how we are dealing with adverse childhood experiences and trauma that people have suffered, which lead exactly to that spiral of crime? How will his Department respond to that?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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The hon. Lady makes a really interesting point about childhood trauma. In the call for evidence on neurodivergence I want to open up some of these issues in a much more novel way, because I am sure that, with proper support and proper intervention, we can divert a lot of people away from a life of crime. When they get into the system it is vital that we expand community sentence treatment requirements. I am a strong believer in the mental health treatment programme, and the NHS, which is scaling up its support for that, is to be thanked. We will expand the availability of that type of treatment order throughout the jurisdiction, so that judges have a real choice when it comes to passing sentences: it does not always have to be custody; there can be a constructive way forward, properly tailored around the offender.

Rob Butler Portrait Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con)
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I warmly welcome the White Paper and in particular its proposal for longer curfew periods alongside GPS tags. That strikes me as something approaching a smart house arrest system. Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that that could fill a significant gap in current sentencing options, because it would be an excellent way of punishing criminals by restricting their liberty while at the same time enabling them to be successfully rehabilitated and therefore less likely to reoffend?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I pay tribute to him for his long work in the criminal justice system, as a member of the Sentencing Council, for example. I warmly welcome his comments, and I am a strong believer that an element of house arrest, let us call it—the use of curfew together with electronic monitoring —alongside various other treatment orders that could be imposed could be a really intelligent, smart way of providing a tougher, more robust approach to sentencing. It will deprive the offender of liberty—causing, of course, huge changes to their life—but, frankly, that is part of the punishment and part of the solution if we are really going to move people on from a cycle of crime.

Kim Johnson Portrait Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Access to justice has declined for our citizens over the decade in which the Tories have been in power, and that is particularly the case in my constituency. What are the Government doing to ensure that the comprehensive spending review places our justice sector on a secure and equal footing for all for the future and pays particular attention to community law centres?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We are of course talking about criminal justice, and I can assure the hon. Lady that she will be impressed by the progress we will make as a result of the work I have been doing on criminal legal aid—the £51 million increase that I have ordered for the remuneration of advocates—and further to review the whole system of criminal legal aid. On the general point about access to justice, the people of Liverpool will, I know, warmly welcome the measures we take to remove serious offenders from the streets of that city and other great cities of the north-west; those measures will really protect the public in a way her constituents will applaud.

Philip Hollobone Portrait Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Government already accept the principle of sentence escalation. For example, under the coronavirus legislation, those in receipt of covid-related penalty notices face a doubling of the fine on each repeat offence. Will the Secretary of State extend sentence escalation to other crimes, especially serious and violent crimes, so that repeat offenders face a stiffer sentence each time they commit the same offence?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to make the point that as a point of principle those people who have been grimly accustomed to and far too familiar with the criminal justice system in the accumulation of sentences merit stiffer terms of imprisonment or stiffer forms of sentence. The courts should and must take that into account when assessing the overall sentence to be passed. With regard to prolific offenders, the tightening up of the minimum term provisions that we are announcing today goes quite a significant way towards the desired outcomes that he and millions of other people seek.

Liz Saville Roberts Portrait Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
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A stalker caught with a murder kit in his car could be charged only with a minor offence because the victim, Dr Ian Hutchinson, was unaware that he had been stalked for over four years. The offender, Thomas Baddeley, was sentenced in August but has already been released. Dr Hutchinson was not informed. Will the Secretary of State commit to a review of sentencing in stalking cases and to strengthening the rights of victims?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for taking up the baton on that issue from her predecessor in Dwyfor Meirionnydd. She is absolutely right to draw me back to a campaign that I helped to champion in order to criminalise stalking and to enhance and improve the law further. I will look at that case more carefully, if I may. I am sure that more work can be done, particularly with regard to awareness and training of police and prosecutors with regard to the true seriousness and invidious nature of stalking and what it can lead to.

Jeremy Wright Portrait Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth and Southam) (Con)
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I congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend on this White Paper, which reflects what he has long argued: an intelligent criminal justice policy requires provision to promote both punishment and rehabilitation. I particularly welcome what he said about sentencing code consolidation, which will not just reduce the number of mistakes made in sentencing but help victims to understand the system better. May I urge him to turn his mind urgently to the practicalities of the interesting proposal to keep offenders in custody for longer if they are radicalised in prison, particularly with a view to giving the Parole Board the tools it needs to make judgments on intelligence material that they will not be familiar with dealing with?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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My right hon. and learned Friend and I toiled in the vineyard with regard to criminal sentencing procedure. He did not quite write the book, but he certainly read it. I am grateful to him for his warm support and for the excellent work of the Law Commission now being enshrined in law by this Government. That is the bedrock of what we are doing, and we are going to build on it in an intelligent way. He is absolutely right to talk about the role of the Parole Board. I have taken a particular interest in making sure that sensitive intelligence material is indeed released to it in the most proper way. I pay tribute to the former vice-chairman of the Parole Board, Sir John Saunders, who my right hon. and learned Friend will know from his days as a Birmingham practitioner, and who made those points very cogently. We have acted on them, but we are going to go further with a root-and-branch review of the Parole Board to make sure that it and other mechanisms are truly working in such a way that it makes fully informed risk assessment decisions.

Steve McCabe Portrait Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
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There is much to commend in this announcement. Earlier the Lord Chancellor referred to the unduly lenient sentences scheme. How many criminals have had their sentences increased since he announced the expansion of that scheme last year?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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The figures are released annually by the Attorney General’s office. I do not have the most up-to-date figures. I do know, from my own long experience as Solicitor General, that the rate of inquiries had increased dramatically to well over 1,000 a year. Last year, to the best of my recollection, the rate of successful appeals was somewhere in the region of 80 cases. That shows that the Law Officers are properly applying the law, and properly taking cases to the Court of Appeal and achieving a higher level of justice where it is absolutely merited. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman can follow up these questions with my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General.

Mark Harper Portrait Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)
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May I commend the balanced judgment that the Lord Chancellor has brought to this? My constituents will welcome the tougher sentences for the most serious and violent offenders, but I think they will also welcome the more innovative sentences that judges will be able to mete out to those with more complex cases. On that point, how is he going to assess the pilots, which were also referred to by the shadow Lord Chancellor, and judge whether they are successful? The public might need persuading that some of these innovative ways of dealing with crime will reduce offending and thereby keep all of our constituents safer.

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend’s support, and I am grateful to him, as ever. He is right to highlight the assessment procedure. He will be glad, and he will remember from his time in office, that my predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), pursued problem-solving courts when he was Lord Chancellor. We already have a considerable amount of learning from that process, and I want to build on that. Although I cannot prejudge every jot and tittle of the effect of problem-solving courts—[Interruption.] The House liked “jot and tittle”. As I was saying, I am pretty clear in my mind about the direction of travel on the effectiveness of their more widespread use in our criminal justice system.

Clive Efford Portrait Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
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Just 206 prison places built out of 10,000 promised by 2020; massive overcrowding in our prisons; little time for rehabilitation, prisoners dumped out of prison with no housing to go to; and a probation service where, due to a failed privatisation, people are being left with a phone call every fortnight, if they are lucky, which has led to a massive rate of reoffending. That is the legacy of this Government. There are many fine words in this statement by the Lord Chancellor, but where are the resources that are going to turn around that record of failure?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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The hon. Gentleman will be glad to know that within a month of my taking office we secured £2.5 billion for the biggest prison building project in years. I am keeping a close eye and tight rein on the project delivery unit that will be doing that. We have the model in place; the Wellingborough prison model is one we can replicate, so we do not need to keep changing the specification and make the same old mistakes on Government procurement. The commitment is absolutely clear, and the money is in place. Last year, the Department obtained a near 5% increase in its revenue budget, which was the biggest single increase in years. We have just secured one of the biggest single injections into prison maintenance budgets in years. Although I do not pretend that I can claim to be as rich as Croesus when it comes to Justice budgets, we are definitely in a better place than we were, and I look forward to the spending round negotiations ahead with relish.

Laura Farris Portrait Laura Farris (Newbury) (Con)
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I congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend on this White Paper, and the root and branch approach it takes to sentencing, probation and rehabilitation. There is a focus on neurodivergence and mental health. Is his primary objective to prevent these people from falling into the criminal justice system in the first place or to help them cope once they do so? If it is the former, how will he work with other agencies to achieve early intervention?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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My hon. Friend speaks with her own knowledge and experience as a practitioner. She is right to ask me that question, because this is not just about how to make the necessary adjustments in the system once the person with that neurodiverse condition is in it. It is equally, if not more so, about prevention in the first place. We will achieve that only with the help of the Department for Education, the Department of Health and Social Care and the Department for Work and Pensions. There is already a cross-governmental disability strategy, which I want to build on with the call for evidence that we are going to undertake. I look forward to engaging with all the agencies, and indeed all the voluntary organisations out there, which bring so much expertise to the table in dealing with these issues. I am also going to put speech, language and communication disorder into the mix, because I know it has been a long-standing issue that we need to address as well.

Mick Whitley Portrait Mick Whitley (Birkenhead) (Lab)
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Our prison system is in crisis. After 10 years of funding cuts and privatisation, many of our prisons are simply not fit for purpose, while overcrowding is leading to dangerously high levels of violence and self-harm. In January, the Howard League for Penal Reform pointed to drastic improvements in the conditions at Liverpool jail as an example of what can be achieved when action is taken to reduce overcrowding, but it also highlighted the fact that overcrowding is a systemic issue across England and Wales. Does the Lord Chancellor recognise that any discussion about increasing custodial sentences has to be accompanied by a dramatic increase in funding for prisoners so that we can tackle overcrowding?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to talk about Her Majesty’s Prison Liverpool; I pay tribute to the governor and, indeed, all the prison staff there for the incredible work they have done to help to change a challenging position to one of real progress. That has been happening in prisons up and down our country. I make no bones about it: the prison environment is a difficult one and the hon. Gentleman is right to highlight overcrowding. But I repeat that the Government have already committed £2.5 billion to a new prison-building programme and secured more funding for prison maintenance. We have also secured £100 million for new prison security, including X-rays, to protect not only prisoners but the staff who run the line and do so much incredible work in the art of jailcraft, which is truly understood by only a few of us in the House but which we should remember when we pay tribute to the tireless work of our dedicated prison officers.

Lucy Allan Portrait Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con)
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The Lord Chancellor is to be congratulated on bringing forward this excellent White Paper. The measures it contains will be widely welcomed in my constituency and are long overdue. Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the additional measures to end automatic early release for serious offenders will protect communities such as Telford, where we have experienced fear and a sense of injustice because of the early release of perpetrators of child sexual exploitation?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for her tireless campaigning on the issue that has affected her community and the lives of people she represents. She is right to remind us of the purpose of this White Paper: we are seeking to protect the public and to achieve a higher level of confidence. When a prison sentence is passed, yes, there is a period on licence during which the individual needs to readjust with the appropriate controls, but there has to be a clear signal that the bulk of their term will be served behind bars. That is what the public expect; that is what will increase confidence in the system; and that is what we are doing.

Stephen Farry Portrait Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)
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There are many sensible reforms in the White Paper, but all changes have to be consistent with the European convention on human rights, which is also a critical pillar of the Good Friday agreement. In the light of media reports over this past weekend, will the Lord Chancellor give a categorical and comprehensive reassurance that the Government have no plans to change either their commitment to the European convention on human rights or the Human Rights Act 1998?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. He knows that in our manifesto the Government committed to updating the Human Rights Act, which is entirely—[Interruption.] The hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) laughs; it is entirely right that an Act that is now 20 years old is looked at carefully, and we will do that. May I absolutely, categorically—[Interruption.] I am sorry, but no Act of Parliament is immune from review or updating, and frankly it is right of us—[Interruption.] It is entirely consistent and correct—[Interruption.] I find the faux outrage of Opposition Members extremely discordant with what the public of this country think. What we are doing, after having secured a large majority, is following through on our manifesto commitment. I make no apology for that, but I will say to the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry) that the commitment of this Government to membership of the European convention on—[Interruption.] If the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) listens, he might learn something. The commitment of this Government to the European convention on human rights is absolute. It was British Conservatives who wrote it—my predecessor Lord Kilmuir, Sir David Maxwell Fyfe, and his team wrote the convention—because we were and are believers in fundamental human rights and freedoms. We wrote it; we are the party that created the convention; and we will stick by that.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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In fairness, we just need to turn it down a little. The Lord Chancellor is one of the most respected and well-mannered Members of this House, and I do not want him to spoil that in my company.

Aaron Bell Portrait Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con)
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I congratulate the Lord Chancellor on this White Paper. The tougher measures within are certainly welcomed by me and will be welcomed by my constituents in Newcastle-under-Lyme, but I also welcome the smarter approach to sentencing. The British people expect the most serious offenders still to face the full force of the law, even if they are under 18, so will he confirm that the White Paper recognises that and will not only change the release point for young offenders committing the most serious offences, but close the gap between sentences for murder for older teenagers—15, 16 and 17-year-olds—and young adults? The gap is significant at the moment, and that needs to change.

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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My hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight the difficulty caused by having a generic starting point for all young offenders, irrespective of age and maturity. It is far better to have a sliding scale that allows the courts, using their discretion, to reflect the differing maturities and age ranges of the serious offenders before them. Although the welfare of young people has to be our primary concern, he is right that when it comes to the most serious offences, we cannot, I am afraid, stint from our duty to protect the public and to ensure that the punishment fits the crime.

Bambos Charalambous Portrait Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab)
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I welcome aspects of this White Paper, especially paragraphs 239 to 242, which acknowledge the role that homelessness plays in reoffending. Being released on a Friday makes it difficult for offenders to access public services, which leads to increased reoffending. What steps is the Secretary of State taking to reconsider people being released on a Friday?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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The hon. Gentleman, who speaks with experience as a practitioner, is right to highlight that issue. I have considered whether we should just ban release on a Friday, but that is probably the wrong answer because, frankly, services need to be there every day of the week. There should be no distinction between what happens on a Friday and what happens on a Wednesday. That is why proper cross-government work has been done to ensure that accommodation and potential jobs are identified when an offender is released and to ensure the benefits system is working if no job is available. That is at the heart of what I am trying to do.

Craig Tracey Portrait Craig Tracey (North Warwickshire) (Con)
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I welcome this statement and thank the Lord Chancellor for meeting me to discuss the tragic case of my constituent, Sean Morley, who was killed in a horrific hit-and-run accident. Does the Lord Chancellor agree that the punishment really must fit the crime for those who cause death or injury by dangerous driving? As Sean’s mum said, in the wrong hands, a car is as deadly a weapon as a gun or a knife.

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for his assiduous work on the behalf of his constituents. As Solicitor General, I dealt with a number of egregious cases of causing death by dangerous driving in which the 14-year maximum just simply was not enough to deal with the true justice of the case. I have seen far too many judges struggle with the maximum, and I have seen the Court of Appeal’s struggle with it as well. We can end that struggle now by allowing far greater discretion when it comes to the most appalling crimes.

Kevin Brennan Portrait Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
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The Lord Chancellor knows that I will welcome the work being done on neurodivergent people who come into contact with the criminal justice system. May I encourage him not only to keep working with Autism Injustice, which was founded by some of my constituents, but to ensure that the Home Office is on board with this?

On death by dangerous driving, I remind the House that it was on 17 October 2017 that the now Foreign Secretary made a commitment to me to introduce the change that has now been announced in the White Paper, and I have been chasing him for the past three years to get on with it. I am glad that it is in the White Paper, but can we have that legislation as soon as possible? Grave injustice is still being suffered, including by the parents of my constituent Sophie Taylor, who was killed in a terrible case.

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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The hon. Gentleman knows that his constituency is very familiar to me having been part of the criminal justice community in Cardiff for many years. I assure him that matters relating to causing death by dangerous driving will be introduced in a Bill in this Session, which means that we can get on with this important job.

On neurodivergence, I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman’s constituents for their tireless work. It is vital that their experience, and those of others like them, is not repeated time and again and that we actually learn from that experience and incorporate it into our mechanisms and make that change.

Laura Trott Portrait Laura Trott (Sevenoaks) (Con)
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I welcome the White Paper, particularly the proposals to extend the minimum term for sexual and violent offenders and the power to end automatic early release. However, will the Secretary of State consider ending the standard determinate sentences for rape so that the Parole Board is always involved before a perpetrator is released into the public?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, who has taken a long and deep interest in this, both as a Member of Parliament and in her previous work as an adviser. She, like me, took interest in criminal justice issues. Sometimes in the world of politics, criminal justice issues are somewhat unfashionable; they are seen as too hard to deal with—too difficult. Well, we should be doing difficult in this place, and she is right to offer me that challenge. What I would say to her at the moment is that these reforms offer a higher degree of justice to victims of rape, who can be assured that perpetrators will now serve longer behind bars. The question of risk and dangerousness needs to be fully understood and examined, and of course I will undertake to do that with her assistance.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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I want to try to get through the list, so could we speed up a little?

Stephanie Peacock Portrait Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab)
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Two years ago, my constituent Jackie Wileman was killed by four known criminals who stole a heavy goods vehicle. Those men had 100 convictions between them. The Lord Chancellor met me and Johnny Wood, Jackie’s brother, and I would like to take this opportunity to thank him and to welcome the decision to increase the maximum sentence for death by dangerous driving from 14 years to life imprisonment. May I also take this opportunity to press him on what progress his Department has made on the reintegration of the probation system?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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I am grateful to the hon. Lady. I well remember the meeting with Mr Wood. It left an impression on me, and the cumulative impression of the meetings I have had with her constituents and others has led to this important announcement. I promise and pledge that we will get on with the legislation. On probation reform, she can be assured that my officials are working to a deadline of next summer—June 2021—to roll out the regional model with a dynamic framework. In Wales, that work is complete already; the unified service started its operations at the beginning of the year. Despite the covid challenge, we are getting on with the job, and I am confident that we will have that unified model in place, certainly by this time next year and before that.

Stuart Anderson Portrait Stuart Anderson (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)
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I welcome the White Paper. Will the Lord Chancellor provide an update on what it will do to increase the capacity of probation services and to improve them in Wolverhampton?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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Again, Wolverhampton is a community and a court I know well, having sat there in the past. My hon. Friend’s constituents will be glad to know that, with the changes to probation—the investment that we are making in increased staff by ramping up the number of probation officers, improving training and making the necessary changes—we will have a system that is better equipped to help end the cycle of offending. It will be better equipped not just to manage offenders—I do not like the word “management”; I prefer “supervision”, because that that implies much more direct action.

Marion Fellows Portrait Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) [V]
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During the passage of the Counter-Terrorism and Sentencing Bill, the director of the Prison Reform Trust told the Bill Committee that if we do not seek to rehabilitate young people, who are more prone to rehabilitation, public protection is undermined rather than enhanced. That advice is well recognised by other experts in the sentencing field. To what extent does the White Paper take that into account?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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I thank the hon. Lady for her work on that important Committee on a Bill that of course has United Kingdom application as well as England and Wales application. I can assure her that in no way do we lose sight of the welfare issue when it comes to young offenders, but at the same time we have to be frank and honest at times where the descent to very serious offending—particularly extremist ideation—has occurred. Then, a mixed approach has to be taken, and public protection does have to be foremost in our minds. That is why we are taking the balanced approach that I advocate in the Command Paper.

Andrew Percy Portrait Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
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The good folk of Brigg and Goole and the Isle of Axholme will welcome the changes when it comes to burglary, as do I, as somebody who has been burgled three times—I have nothing worth kifing, though. However, on the important issue of autism, one of the big problems we have in this country is people’s ability to access an assessment and a formal diagnosis of autism. Will the Lord Chancellor ensure that proper training is put in place across the Prison Service and the probation service to identify that?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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I was sorry to hear about my hon. Friend’s experiences. I am glad that he has shared with us that he has nothing of value—perhaps nothing left of any value. As a victim of crime, he is right to point to both ends of the spectrum. When it comes to autism, we have some excellent therapeutic services in places such Her Majesty’s Young Offender Institution Aylesbury, but it seems to me that they are islands of excellence in a sea of a lack of response. That is what I want the call for evidence to identify. Through that body of information, we can then take the action that he and I have wanted for so long.

Stephen Doughty Portrait Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
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The Lord Chancellor will be aware of the serious violence related to drugs in my constituency and the number of terrorism offences that have taken place. Like my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), I will look constructively at these proposals, because I want to see tough action on serious criminals.

The Lord Chancellor was on television this morning talking about fudging the law, after a week in which he has been defending a specific and limited breaking of the law. Could he ever have imagined making such comments when he was a recorder in south Wales, or among his legal colleagues at Apex Chambers in Cardiff? Many of them will welcome the sentencing reform, but they certainly do not welcome comments that undermine the rule of law in this country.

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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Well, that was a question of two halves. I absolutely welcome the point that the hon. Gentleman makes on behalf of the people of Cardiff South and Penarth. I have to say to him that to make that sort of analogy with the position regarding an international negotiation and the interpretation of a treaty is to stretch the point too far.

Tonia Antoniazzi Portrait Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab) [V]
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Fewer than one in 10 crimes now lead to a suspect being charged. That is the lowest charging rate for reported crimes since records began. Nearly half of all crimes close with no suspect being identified at all. What steps are the Government taking to fix that?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
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The hon. Lady quite rightly refers to what is often termed the justice gap: the difference between crimes that are reported and the bringing of those offences to full prosecution. The sad truth is that not all offences have the requisite evidence for the threshold to be met, and that is why we have an independent prosecutorial service in this country. She is right to talk about the need for us to bear down most heavily on investigation. Increasing the numbers of police officers—we are already 4,000 up on where we were, and we will hit the 20,000 target and, I believe, move beyond it—will help to turbocharge the investigation and prosecution of offences so that we can, in large measure, help to close that gap.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The final question is from Dr Kieran Mullan.

Kieran Mullan Portrait Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con)
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Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

“Where an offender commits the premeditated murder of a child, we will legislate to ensure that the expectation is that a Whole Life Order…will be given, meaning they will spend the rest of their life in prison”.

Those words, taken straight from this White Paper, mean that finally the parents of a murdered child will at least be able to get justice, although the hurt and pain will never be undone. I have spoken previously about the case of Elsie Urry, who had to endure the pain of seeing the man who brutally murdered her three young children—Paul Ralph, four, Dawn, two, and nine-month-old Samantha—being released from prison last year. Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that that and other changes demonstrate to people that this Conservative Government understand how British people feel about these issues, and that, where we can, we will go further to get justice for the victims of serious crime?

Robert Buckland Portrait Robert Buckland
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I pay warm tribute to my hon. Friend for championing the cause of that family, who suffered an unbelievable tragedy, and trying to make something positive of it. I am profoundly grateful for his support on these measures. I value the conversations that he and I have. He is a member of the Justice Committee, and I am extremely obliged to him for his warm support.

Virtual participation in proceedings concluded (Order, 4 June.)

Points of Order

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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13:48
Tracy Brabin Portrait Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab/Co-op)
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On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your guidance on a matter that occurred in this House. Yesterday during Treasury questions, I asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer about the soaring numbers of first-time food bank users, and highlighted the correlation between that and the 3 million people who have not received significant financial support during the coronavirus pandemic. I asked whether any Government support was forthcoming to those millions of people.

The Chancellor is well aware of that group, who are commonly known as the excluded, yet in his answer he said that he felt that I had become “confused”. He suggested that I was asking about self-employed people who earn more than £50,000 a year in profit. People in these circumstances make up a small proportion of the excluded group. There are many others, such as the newly self-employed, pay-as-you-earn freelancers, those who earn less than 50% of their income through freelance work and new starters.

I have no doubt that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not have intentionally dismissed the concerns of the millions of people I have sought clarity for, because I know that the issues of food and financial poverty are of the utmost importance to him, as they are to all Members. What advice can you give me, Mr Speaker, on how I can ensure that the Chancellor has the opportunity to put it on record that it was actually he who may have been confused during yesterday’s Question Time and, more importantly, to answer my question in full, for the sake of the millions who are locked out of support?

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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I thank the hon. Lady for giving me notice of her point of order. As she is well aware, it is not a point of order for the Chair, but we have quite rightly ensured—this is the advice, which is simple—that she has got it on the record. It is there for everybody to see that it is corrected, and I am sure that the sound of her voice will be whirling around, on its way to remind the Chancellor of what has been said.

Wes Streeting Portrait Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab)
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On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your advice on correcting an injustice. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East (Nadia Whittome) was wrongly accused of fabricating a shortage of personal protective equipment at the care home in which she used to work as a carer and to which she had returned to work to assist during the pandemic. Unfortunately, as well as my hon. Friend being accused of lying in the media and on social media, her account of the serious PPE shortage was called into question by the hon. Members for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns), for Mansfield (Ben Bradley), for Mid Bedfordshire (Ms Dorries) and for North West Durham (Mr Holden), the right hon. Member for Braintree (James Cleverly) and the noble Lord, Baron Goldsmith of Richmond Park. I notified them in advance that I would be raising this matter.

Today the care home in question has confirmed to the Daily Mirror that there were shortages of PPE, that my hon. Friend had been telling the truth and that she was asked to record a video appeal for PPE donations, an issue that has been a source of national concern. Can you advise me, Mr Speaker, on how I might bring these facts to the attention of the House, and the hon. and right hon. Members concerned? In the short time that she has been here, my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East has shown herself to be a principled, caring and compassionate Member of this House. The Government must listen to frontline workers and stop trying to distract from their own catastrophic failure to support care homes and their staff during this crisis.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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Very much on the same lines, I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving me notice of the point of order. It is very important that it is placed on the record. I hope Members will reflect on what has been said, and I am sure that when they read it, they may quite rightly wish to speak with the hon. Member in question. I say to hon. Members in all parts of the House that we ought to be a little more careful before we point the finger at each other. If we think before we act, in the end, with a little more care and caution, we will not have to hear these points of order. However, I say to the hon. Member for Ilford North (Wes Streeting) that it is not a point of order for me, but it is certainly on the record, and I am sure that other Members will reflect on it.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
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I have not been given notice of this point of order, but I call the hon. Lady.

Debbie Abrahams Portrait Debbie Abrahams
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You should have had notice of it, Mr Speaker, so my apologies if it has not reached you. I, too, seek your guidance. I am frequently getting tardy and irrelevant responses from Ministers in relation to constituency casework. I am afraid that the worst culprits are the Department of Health and Social Care, the Treasury and the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. In one case, I had to send two reminders to the Department of Health and Social Care concerning a constituent who had secondary—that is, terminal—breast cancer. This morning I received a standard reply from Treasury about a constituent’s business that was three months late and had no relevance. This is incredibly disrespectful to my constituents. I appreciate that everybody is busy, but it is not good enough, so I wonder if I could ask your good self, Mr Speaker, how I might remind Ministers that they have an obligation and a duty to respond to constituents’ inquiries.

Lindsay Hoyle Portrait Mr Speaker
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I do take this on board, and we are all concerned. Ministers have a duty of care to reply to Members. We are acting on behalf of the people who elect us. I have taken this up on numerous occasions with the Leader of the House, and he has also taken it up with Ministers and their offices. I think he might be behind the Chair, but I am sure that he will be listening very carefully, taking notes and already sending out the message: Ministers should answer the questions put to them fully and in time, otherwise it is not good enough, as I am sure we would all agree. I do not care what side of the House it is, Ministers have a duty of care to every Member of this House. They should be put first, so I will take the point on board.

For the safe exit of hon. Members participating in this item of business and the safe arrival of those participating in the next, I am suspending the sitting for the three minutes.

13:55
Sitting suspended.
Bill Presented
Overseas Development Assistance Committee Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Wendy Chamberlain, supported by Sarah Champion, Harriett Baldwin, Chris Law, Layla Moran, Kate Osamor, Caroline Lucas, Claire Hanna, Mr Virendra Sharma, and Mrs Pauline Latham, presented a Bill to require a Minister to move a motion in the House of Commons seeking to establish a Select Committee to monitor overseas development assistance expenditure by Government Departments.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on 13 November and to be printed (Bill 182).

Remote Participation in House of Commons Proceedings (Motion)

1st reading & 1st reading: House of Commons
Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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A Ten Minute Rule Bill is a First Reading of a Private Members Bill, but with the sponsor permitted to make a ten minute speech outlining the reasons for the proposed legislation.

There is little chance of the Bill proceeding further unless there is unanimous consent for the Bill or the Government elects to support the Bill directly.

For more information see: Ten Minute Bills

This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record

Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order No. 23)
13:58
Dawn Butler Portrait Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab)
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I beg to move,

That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require the Leader of the House of Commons to move a Motion asserting the equal right of all Members of the House of Commons to participate in proceedings and establishing mechanisms for MPs unable to attend Westminster to vote remotely and to participate remotely in proceedings, including debates and general committees.

I rise to present this Bill, which was originally tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies). He would have presented it today but, ironically, he is self-isolating, and his right to speak in this Chamber remotely was removed by the Government in June. I am pleased to adopt the Bill and to present our combined speech.

This Bill is about the fundamental constitutional and democratic right of all voters to be represented by their elected MP in this Parliament. It aims to restore democratic participation for all MPs in debates and Committees that shape and decide the laws of our country. Only then will the voices of millions of voters across hundreds of constituencies be heard once again. That is desperately needed at this crucial time when decisions are being made that will shape not only our lives but almost every aspect of the lives of future generations. This country needs our democracy to be fully functioning in order to make the best decisions as we face a resurgence of the coronavirus pandemic, which has already sadly killed more than 45,000 people; an abrupt end to furlough, which will throw millions of people into unemployment and poverty; and a no-deal Brexit, which this House previously agreed was a bad idea.

At this time like no other, all voters and constituents must have their voices heard equally in this place, the mother of all Parliaments. Debate, dialogue and scrutiny are paramount to help us chart the best possible route through these unprecedented and turbulent times. That was happening in April and May, with MPs from all corners of the United Kingdom successfully participating as equals in debates using video conferencing technology. It is the 21st century; we should be getting with the programme. However, in June, the Government disenfranchised millions of voters by abolishing online participation in parliamentary debates. The Government knew that that was an anti-democratic decision, done in an anti-democratic manner. It is probably illegal for Parliament to vote to undermine its own legitimate democratic mandate in a vote that excluded those constituencies most affected, as the vote itself was not conducted online, so shielding MPs were excluded.

The Government have abused the purpose of parliamentary privilege to prevent the courts from protecting the right of voters to be represented in this place. Parliamentary privilege is meant to protect the right of MPs to represent their voters in Parliament free from fear of threat of court action, but the Government have used it for their own protection, to prevent the courts from intervening and ruling that removing the right of voters to be represented is illegal. How can that be right? How can that be democratic? How can that be the parliamentary sovereignty that some profess to hold so dear?

The right to participate is crucial as the Government embark on a reversal of our devolution settlement, breaching the Good Friday agreement and potentially breaking international law. At home, the Government are creating a divided kingdom. Abroad, they are destroying trust in Britain and our reputation on the international stage. At such an important time, all our constituencies must have an equal voice in these debates.

The taxpayer has already invested heavily in the technology for remote democracy. We know that it works, and it works really well. It is working in the Welsh Parliament and the Scottish Parliament, so why not in the Westminster Parliament? It is even being used in the House of Lords, so the most obvious question is, why is remote voting not being used in the House of Commons? Why are so many constituents not being represented and millions of voters left voiceless? Why is that happening?

This Bill would resume the equal right of all constituents to be represented by their MP, by establishing mechanisms for those MPs unable to attend and participate remotely in debates. Just yesterday, it would have allowed the self-isolating Leader of the Opposition to remotely oppose the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill. Instead, his democratic rights were denied. Last week, the Leader of the House—I see that he is in his place—who abolished remote democracy in the guise of getting us back to work was unable to do his job because he was self-isolating. That will happen more and more as the spread of covid rises.

This attack on our country’s democracy and parliamentary representation is of critical importance, as the weakening of UK democracy is part of a pattern that threatens our fundamental British values. Our Parliament is sovereign. The Government’s action to stifle parliamentary democracy is worrying and must be considered alongside these things: the proroguing of Parliament, overturned by the Supreme Court last year; the brutal hounding out of heads of our civil service; the attacks on the public broadcaster, the BBC; giving Ministers Henry VIII powers to make laws without the consent of Parliament; the attempt to break international law; trade deals without parliamentary scrutiny; procurement contracts without parliamentary oversight; the creation of a no-deal economic catastrophe; the planned weakening of our judicial and justice system; and the withdrawal from the European convention on human rights. We cannot and we must not allow the Prime Minister’s—and his adviser’s—insatiable lust for power to threaten our fundamental British values of democracy, human rights and the rule of law. Parliamentary accountability is crucial at any time, but more crucial than ever when Ministers have taken unprecedented emergency measures that limit our liberties, the way we live our lives and our freedoms.

Sir Patrick Vallance, chief scientific adviser to the Government, has said that no inside queues should be taking place as it is not covid safe. The solution is easy: Mr Speaker and the House of Commons Commission have developed a world-beating remote voting app, which is something that they, the House and the country should be proud of, celebrate and utilise. This is about taking our democracy back, so I am privileged to move the Bill in my name and on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West, to re-establish full democracy in this House of Commons for all of our voters, all of our nations and all of our futures.

Question put and agreed to.

Ordered,

That Dawn Butler, Geraint Davies, Layla Moran, Liz Saville Roberts, Dame Margaret Hodge, Ian Byrne, Caroline Lucas, Bell Ribeiro-Addy, Rosie Duffield, Munira Wilson, Paula Barker and Peter Dowd present the Bill.

Dawn Butler accordingly presented the Bill.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 25 September, and to be printed (Bill 183).

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Commons Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
[Relevant Documents: First Report of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, Unfettered Access: Customs Arrangements In Northern Ireland After Brexit, HC 161, and the Government Response, HC 783.]
[2nd Allocated Day]
Further considered in Committee
[Dame Eleanor Laing in the Chair]
Eleanor Laing Portrait The Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing)
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I should explain that, in these exceptional circumstances, although the Chair of the Committee would normally sit in the Clerk’s chair during Committee stage, in order to comply with social distancing requirements, I will remain in the Speaker’s Chair, although I will be carrying out the role not of Deputy Speaker but of Chairman of the Committee. We should be addressed as Chairs of the Committee, rather than as Deputy Speakers.

Clause 46

Power to provide financial assistance for economic development etc

14:08
Alison Thewliss Portrait Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)
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I beg to move amendment 33, page 36, line 34, after “Crown” insert

“, after obtaining the agreement of the relevant devolved Minister,”.

This amendment is intended to ensure that Ministers of the Crown obtain the agreement of the relevant devolved minister before operating within devolved competencies..

Eleanor Laing Portrait The Chairman
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With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 11, page 36, line 34, after “Parliament” insert

“upon the approval of the relevant devolved authorities”.

Amendment 19, page 37, line 3, at end insert—

“(1A) If provision to be made by a Minister of the Crown under subsection (1) would relate to any matter for which a relevant body has legislative competence, the provision may only be made after that body has approved a motion consenting to that provision.

(1B) In this section, a “relevant body” is—

(a) the Scottish Parliament,

(b) Senedd Cymru, or

(c) the Northern Ireland Assembly.

(1C) A matter is within the devolved competence of a relevant body if it would be within the legislative competence of that body if it were contained in an Act of that body.”

Amendment 20, page 37, line 4, at end insert—

‘(1A) Any financial assistance provided under this section must be consistent with the achievement of any climate and environmental goals and targets applicable in the relevant part or parts of the United Kingdom.”

The intention of this amendment is to ensure that financial assistance for economic development, etc under this Act is consistent with the achievement of applicable climate and environmental goals and targets.

Clause 46 stand part.

Amendment 23, in clause 47, page 37, line 23, leave out “take the form” and insert “be provided by way”.

This amendment, together with Amendment 24, would allow financial assistance under Clause 46 to take any form.

Amendment 24, page 37, line 23, after “indemnities” insert “or in any other form”.

This amendment, together with Amendment 23, would allow financial assistance under Clause 46 to take any form.

Amendment 25, page 37, line 25, after “interest” insert “or other return”.

This amendment would ensure that the Minister could provide financial assistance in a way that generates a return other than interest - which might be the case for investment in investment funds.

Amendment 26, page 37, line 26, at end insert—

“(d) may be provided to an investment fund for onward investment or administrative costs relating to onward investment.” 

This amendment would enable the Minister to provide financial assistance to investment funds for onward investment.

Amendment 12, page 37, line 26, at end insert—

“(1A) In Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, powers over the administration and management of financial assistance under section 46 shall be fully devolved to Senedd Cymru, the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly respectively.

(1B) The total amounts made available for financial assistance under section 46 must be pre-allocated based on each nation’s relative wealth expressed as Gross Domestic Product (GDP) per capita.

(1C) The total amounts made available for financial assistance under section 46 must take the form of a multi-annual funding programme to allow long-term planning and funding security.”

This amendment is intended to ensure that the administration and management of funding for financial assistance shall be entirely devolved to the devolved legislatures, that funding levels shall be pre-allocated according to need, and that there shall be a multi-annual funding programme for funding financial assistance under this Act.

Amendment 14, page 37, line 29, at end, insert—

“(3A) Financial assistance under section 46 must be the subject of a framework agreement to be agreed by resolution of each House of Parliament.”

The intention of this amendment is to provide a policy framework for the allocation of financial assistance.

Amendment 15, page 37, line 29, at end, insert—

“(3B) The Treasury must include in the Estimates presented to the House of Commons proposals for funding each of the devolved administrations to provide financial assistance for the purposes set out in section 46 in relation to the areas of the United Kingdom covered by that devolved administration.”

The intention of this amendment is to ensure that devolved administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are funded to provide financial assistance under this Act.

Amendment 16, page 37, line 29, at end, insert—

“(3C) Any financial assistance provided under section 46 in relation to areas of the United Kingdom covered by a devolved administration must be subject to allocation by the relevant devolved administration.”

The intention of this amendment is to ensure that devolved administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland retain current powers over devolved matters.

Amendment 22, page 37, line 29, at end insert—

“(3) No enactment or rule of law prior to the passing of this Act prevents financial assistance being provided under section 46 to any person in Northern Ireland.”

This amendment is intended to ensure that Part 6 of the Act will apply to Northern Ireland in the same way as to the other parts of the United Kingdom.

Clause 47 stand part.

Alison Thewliss Portrait Alison Thewliss
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I am delighted to move amendment 33 in my name and that of my colleagues. Before anybody asks why we would even bother to try to amend the Bill, which is quite clearly not fit for purpose and absolutely beyond the pale, I would say that the amendment is a probing amendment. I am seeking to draw out the Minister on some of the issues in clauses 46 and 47.

I have huge sympathy with the amendments tabled by my colleagues in Plaid Cymru and the SDLP, and with the climate change amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), because climate change is something the Scottish Government have tried very hard to push on and have made much progress on—ahead of the UK Government.

Amendments 14 and 15, in the name of the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) and his colleagues, reflect the issues set out yesterday by my hon. Friend the Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Drew Hendry). These frameworks exist, but the UK Government wish to ride roughshod over those mechanisms—to tear them up and to impose their will upon Scotland. These amendments from the official Opposition do nothing to address this truth.

If we were to take them at their word, we might think that the UK Government were doing Scotland some kind of kindness. Who would object to something called financial assistance after all? However, we on these Benches know what that assistance is apt to look like and the strings that come with it. We already know that they are prepared to lie to the Queen and break international law, so what is this Government’s word really worth?

The Prime Minister has made clear his intention to stamp a Union flag on projects in Scotland, out of some kind of petulant jealousy of how well EU-flagged projects in Scotland are regarded, but there is a fundamental difference with those projects. They were done in collaboration and co-operation with the Scottish Government and they are projects that would never have happened if it were up to the UK Government.

A quick look through the Scotland-EU funding programme highlights projects large and small—infrastructure, research, inclusive growth and employability, low-carbon initiatives—but there is still no plan and still no budget from the UK Government to replace these. Their shared prosperity fund is still, astonishingly, after all these years, yet to be unveiled. In contrast, the EU is a trusted partner with a track record to be proud of. We also stand to lose the valuable international aspects of the links this funding can bring with cross-European collaboration, which stands with the founding principles of the EU and takes Scotland out into that wider world.

In the vein of building bridges rather than walls, I would like to mention a few bridges to illustrate my point. The stunning Queensferry crossing—toll free and built by the Scottish Government in response to the corrosion of the Forth road bridge—is a project that was mooted in the 1990s, prior to devolution, before being shut down by the UK Government of the time, a Labour Government I should say. This bridge was delivered by the Scottish National party—not a penny piece from the UK Government towards its construction.

The Kessock bridge, of which my hon. Friend the Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey is rightly proud, was built with European funds. Money in the region of £90 million for projects in the Outer Hebrides over the past 25 years has transformed transportation through ferry terminals, bridges and causeways, the bulk of which came from European Union funds.

What bridges does the current Prime Minister have to speak of? The £53 million he chucked at the Garden bridge in London, which does not even exist, or the bridge that might also be a euphemism for a tunnel, as described by the Secretary of State for Scotland—that £20 billion bridge over the second world war munitions dump at Beaufort’s dyke in the Irish sea? These last two fantasy projects tell us something of what we need to know about the UK Government’s approach to infrastructure projects.

Patrick Grady Portrait Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)
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My hon. Friend is making a powerful point about the huge flaws in the propositions of clause 46 to give the UK Government power to spend money on issues that are not the priority in Scotland, and she is right to draw a contrast with EU funding. The road I cycled on to get to school, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Drew Hendry), was built with EU funding, and if it had been up to Thatcher’s Government, that road would still be a dirt track. There are examples of that all over Scotland, where the Scottish Parliament and the European Union work together, in contrast to the attitude of this UK Government.

Alison Thewliss Portrait Alison Thewliss
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My hon. Friend is absolutely right to make that point. It is also a point to note that the Major Government were known to divert EU funding from projects in Scotland to pet projects trying to shore up marginal seats in England, so they have form on this issue.

Alison Thewliss Portrait Alison Thewliss
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I will give way in some time. I would make some progress because I know lots of people wish to speak.

This also tells us that the Prime Minister was absolutely wrong when he said:

“A pound spent in Croydon is of far more value to the country than a pound spent in Strathclyde”

because the opposite is true. A pound spent in the south-east of England is barely noticeable, but think again of that £90 million investment in the Western Isles—noticed by all, transformational in its impact and of real value to the people who live and work there. Subsidiarity, EU style.

14:15
The power to provide financial assistance for economic development and so on is as wide-ranging as it is dangerous. Much of the power rests entirely with a Minister of the Crown, a kind of benevolent dictator doling out riches. But these are not a Minister’s riches; they are the money of the people of these islands, and these choices are not the choices of a Minister of the Crown. They are decisions best made by a Parliament over 300 miles from here, democratically elected by the people of Scotland.
Alison Thewliss Portrait Alison Thewliss
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If the hon. Gentleman would like to tell me why the Scottish Government should not be overseeing these projects, I would be glad to hear.

John Lamont Portrait John Lamont
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The hon. Lady is giving a typically bitter speech around the role of the UK Government into Scotland. Does she not accept that the UK Government and the Scottish Government have worked very closely together on the growth deals and city deals in Scotland? They are very good examples of what can be achieved in Scotland with both Governments working together, rather than the attitude that she takes of opposing everything that this place does.

Alison Thewliss Portrait Alison Thewliss
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I am very interested that the hon. Gentleman raises growth deals, because every single growth deal in Scotland has been short-changed by the UK Government. The Scottish Government have put in more than the UK Government to those growth deals and we are still waiting for the money for some of those growth deals to be realised.

Drew Hendry Portrait Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP)
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Does my hon. Friend agree that it is a disgrace that hon. Members are raising that point when in Inverness, the UK Government spent £83 million less than the Scottish Government? When will the UK Government make up that shortfall?

Alison Thewliss Portrait Alison Thewliss
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This UK Government appear to have no intention of making up the shortfalls on any of those growth deals. The growth deal in Aberdeen was huge and ambitious in setting out to change and challenge the economy in Aberdeen, the end of oil and moving towards that just transition—

Alison Thewliss Portrait Alison Thewliss
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If the hon. Member for Aberdeen has some more money from the UK Government for the growth deal, I would be happy to take his intervention.

Andrew Bowie Portrait Andrew Bowie
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Aberdeenshire—but I will forgive the hon. Lady for that mistake. I want to take her back to her point about bridges. On investment in bridges, will she join my campaign to get the Scottish Government to release much-needed funds to replace Park bridge, Abbeyton bridge and Oatyhill bridge, which cannot be reopened or replaced because the Scottish Government are starving Scottish local authorities and their ability to maintain vital infrastructure? We might be able to give money to that if the Bill is passed next week.

Alison Thewliss Portrait Alison Thewliss
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I would like to find out how much money the UK Government would like to put to that, because they have not put money to anything very much so far. I am sure the Scottish Government will hear his plea on that issue, and I hope to hear more about that.

Alan Brown Portrait Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
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Does not the previous intervention show the risks that are associated with clause 46, in that it allows Tory MPs to lobby for wee pet projects to get funded from Westminster, bypassing the Scottish Parliament, which is democratically elected by the electorate of Scotland? While bypassing Scotland, they are also at liberty to cut Scotland’s budget.

Alison Thewliss Portrait Alison Thewliss
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My hon. Friend is absolutely right, because none of this is in Scotland’s hands. The budget purse strings are still controlled from Westminster, so if the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie) would like more money for those projects, perhaps he should speak to his colleague the Chancellor. [Interruption.] Absolutely; the budget continues to be cut and put under pressure by the actions of the UK Government.

To return to the Bill, clause 46(1) states:

“A Minister of the Crown may, out of money provided by Parliament, provide financial assistance to any person for, or in connection with, any of the following purposes”.

Let me stop there. It states “to any person”. I very much hope that that person is not the former Transport Minister, the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), or we may be in deeper bother than we think. After all, just shy of 20 major UK Government failings can be traced to him, including handing £40 million to a ferry firm with no ferries. But back to my list.

“(a) promoting economic development in the United Kingdom or any area of the United Kingdom”.

That is a clear responsibility of the Scottish Government, in co-operation with local government or enterprise agencies, business and the third sector. They know best the landscape of Scotland and what would work best for her people and her communities, and we have a quite different idea of economic development from the UK Government’s race to the bottom. Who are the UK Government to say that, all of a sudden, factory X must drop from the sky? We may be lured in by a sweetheart deal, but would prefer sustainability for the long term. We have seen too much of that in Scotland in the past. We seek quality, sustainable jobs for our people, now and in the future.

Clearly, we cannot trust the Tories to be strategic or impartial, because they have recent form in their towns fund, which funnelled money to Tory marginal seats. As the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee said,

“Ministers relied on flimsy, cherry-picked evidence to choose the lucky towns”.

To add insult to injury, we have still not got to the bottom of the Barnett consequentials for the towns fund.

Paragraph (b) states:

“providing infrastructure at places in the United Kingdom (including infrastructure in connection with any of the other purposes mentioned in this section)”.

Let us take a quick look at the UK Government’s woeful record on infrastructure. HS2 is beset by delays, cost increases and a lack of strategic vision. Originally supposed to make it to Scotland, it has not even got to Birmingham yet. Crossrail is late and receiving a further half-billion pound bail-out. So-called smart motorways put the lives of motorists at risk. In energy, Hinkley has become a byword for UK Government incompetence and profligacy to the detriment of renewables.

Alan Brown Portrait Alan Brown
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I am not sure if my hon. Friend is aware of this, but just today it was announced by Horizon that it is pulling out of the Wylfa nuclear power station and Oldbury, so half the proposed nuclear power stations the UK Government are trying to progress are now dead and buried in the water. Is it not time that they accept their failure and move back to renewables?

Alison Thewliss Portrait Alison Thewliss
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My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that. I was about to mention the proposed power station on Anglesey, which has apparently been scrapped because the company could not get the assurances it needed from the UK Government.

We might also mention the Scottish Government having to use planning permission to stop the UK Government bringing in fracking in our country by issuing licences that we did not want to have. We are having to use planning permission to block fracking—this is something that is fundamental to the health and wellbeing of our country. Some £186 million has been spent on two carbon capture and storage competitions, and we still have exactly zero carbon capture and storage facilities, despite David Cameron promising £1 billion to the north-east at the “indyref”. Renewable projects that the Scottish Government would love to see promoted further are hampered by lack of interest and by constantly switching energy Ministers. Those are just the physical projects; UK Government IT projects are notorious for their capacity to waste money and fail to deliver.

Paragraph (c) states:

“supporting cultural activities, projects and events that the Minister considers directly or indirectly benefit the United Kingdom or particular areas of the United Kingdom”.

I wonder if this will bring us more joys such as the millennium dome or the festival of Brexit, which is still limping on despite coronavirus: £120 million to tell us all how lucky we are to be stuck in this island and thumbing our nose to the world. Haud me back! Is it perhaps a sign of panic, as Ewan McGregor has joined the chorus of creatives backing independence?

Paragraph (d) states:

“supporting activities, projects and events relating to sport that the Minister considers directly or indirectly benefit the United Kingdom or particular areas of the United Kingdom”.

That is the vaguest of the vague, again with Ministers deciding they know what best would benefit particular areas. I say this from a point where Glasgow has a very strong track record in bidding for, paying for and hosting international sporting events—the best Commonwealth games ever in 2014, European championships in 2018 and the UEFA Euro 2020—now Euro 2021—which is sadly not taking place this year due to covid.

Paragraph (e) states:

“supporting international educational and training activities and exchanges”.

This one, I must say, is a real kick in the teeth. The UK Government cannot yet say what will happen with our membership of Erasmus+, a project that we do not even need to be members of the EU to participate in. Children from Pollokshields Primary, students at colleges and universities, and people in community youth groups have all felt the benefit of Erasmus+ over the years, and they do not need this all-powerful Minister of State to reinvent the wheel and put a Union flag on these activities. They need to have continuing membership of Erasmus+ confirmed to allow for seamless participation in this horizon-widening programme.

Drew Hendry Portrait Drew Hendry
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My hon. Friend is making an extremely important point about Erasmus. In the highlands, we have benefited from the University of the Highlands and Islands, which has only been able to grow and develop over the years and to provide quality education across the highlands because of Erasmus. This is being whipped away from us.

Alison Thewliss Portrait Alison Thewliss
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My hon. Friend is absolutely correct to point this out. Erasmus is a fantastic programme, and it opens the eyes of young people who would not otherwise be able to participate. It is very cruel for the UK Government not yet to have given any certainty to that programme. I know that there are people who work in international education in Glasgow who are still waiting for answers from this Government about whether their programme will be able to go ahead and whether they will have a job in the future.

Paragraph (f) states:

“supporting educational and training activities and exchanges within the United Kingdom.”

This is a clear area where the UK Government are stepping into devolved areas, because Scottish education is protected not only by the Scotland Act 1998, but by the Act of Union itself, along with the judiciary and the Church. The UK Government must be clear what exactly they intend by this particular provision.

I was quite taken aback by the statement on Monday by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster stating that there is no risk to water or the NHS. I believe he may be referring to clause 17 on mutual recognition and clauses 18 and 19 on non-discrimination, and to the related schedules, but the difficulty is that these clauses are not set in stone and can be changed further down the line. Subsection (2) tells a further story, because the definition of “infrastructure”—what that autocratic Minister of the Crown can directly fund on a whim—includes

“water, electricity, gas, telecommunications, sewerage or other services (for example, the provision of heat)…railway facilities (including rolling stock), roads or other transport facilities…health, educational, cultural or sports facilities…court or prison facilities, and…housing”.

In areas that are devolved, no UK Government Minister of the Crown has any business acquiring, designing, constructing, converting, improving, operating or repairing our infrastructure. Under this measure, the UK Government could propose to build in Scotland a court or a prison where they have no oversight of the justice system, a school where they have no remit over education, a road where they have no remit over transport, and, yes, a water treatment works where we already have the most successful, publicly owned water company in these islands.

Stephen Crabb Portrait Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con)
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The hon. Lady is making an interesting speech about the appropriate level of government for making decisions about projects and what projects constitute value for money, but at the heart of her argument is a serious proposition, which I think every Unionist in this House should find objectionable, which is that this elected UK Government should never have the ability to spend money in all corners of the United Kingdom for the benefit of their citizens.

Alison Thewliss Portrait Alison Thewliss
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It is called devolution, which this Parliament voted for and which the Scottish people, the Welsh people and the Northern Irish people have voted for. It is the settled will of our people and it is democracy.

Stephen Doughty Portrait Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
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The hon. Lady knows I do not support independence—I support the Union—but I agree with what she says about devolution. We have a devolution settlement that was voted for by the peoples of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and we need to respect that. Perhaps that is why, in the past few minutes, the Advocate General for Scotland has resigned, stating that he cannot take the Bill further. He is the former chair of the Scottish Conservatives, and perhaps that reflects that he is not willing to front these arguments any longer either.

Alison Thewliss Portrait Alison Thewliss
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I agree 100% with the hon. Gentleman’s point. I was going to mention the Advocate General later on, because it turns out he is Lord not-so-Keen in terms of the Government’s proposals, and neither are we.

Patricia Gibson Portrait Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
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What the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb) fails to realise is that at the heart of the Bill is an attack on devolution. It is not about who spends what where; it is an attack on the Scotland Act 1998, an attack on the will of the Scottish people and an attack on the sovereignty of the Scottish people.

Alison Thewliss Portrait Alison Thewliss
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My hon. Friend is correct. These matters are clearly for the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government to decide, and the Bill is overreach at a ridiculous level. Either this legislation is very poorly drafted, which from the Government amendments it would certainly appear to be, or they do not understand devolution, which seems perfectly clear from the interventions we have had. Are they intent on dismantling 20 years of devolved decision-making on these islands, just so they can stick a flag on something? It is pathetic.

Then we get to clause 47, titled “Financial assistance: supplementary”. Subsection (1) states:

“Financial assistance under section 46…may take the form of grants, loans, guarantees or indemnities…may be provided subject to conditions (which may include conditions about repayment with or without interest)…may be provided under a contract.”

This nefarious Minister of the Crown not only has the power under the Bill to build some infrastructure in our country that the democratically elected Parliament of Scotland has not voted for, but it also gives them the power to stick Scotland with the bill and charge us interest. Gee, thanks guys. What can I say? So generous. It is the Skye bridge all over again. That was the first PFI project in the UK. It opened in 1995 and was notorious for its tolls. The then Scottish Executive had to buy the bridge back a decade later in order to abolish the tolls, which raised more money than the bridge cost in the first place. Do we really want to return to that level of generous investment in Scotland?

Six years ago today, I was pounding the streets of Glasgow with hundreds of other activists, knocking on doors, delivering leaflets and having animated discussions about what a new country could look like. We are a couple of days out from the anniversary of the 2014 independence referendum, which was a watershed moment for so many of us in Scotland. I cannot begin to describe the feelings of hope and excitement there were in the city of Glasgow, where my own constituency voted for Scotland to be an independent country.

I could not have imagined that six years later, I would be standing here, a Member of this Parliament. I could not have imagined that I would have had to fight three elections in five years, and I could not have imagined that Scotland would have been dragged out of the EU against our will. In my worst dreams, I could not have imagined that I would be standing here today, defending the very fabric of devolution from a full-scale attack.

Alison Thewliss Portrait Alison Thewliss
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

If the hon. Member wants to tell me why he supports this attack, I will bring him in.

Andrew Bowie Portrait Andrew Bowie
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Lady for giving way. I wanted more to go back to a point about Scotland being taken out of the EU against its will. It is obviously still the SNP’s position to rejoin the EU, and she speaks eloquently and powerfully about this autocratic Minister taking decisions over spending and restricting the powers of Scotland’s devolved Parliament. She is aware of the restrictions and powers of the unelected and autocratic European Commission regarding spending and powers in Scotland. All the powers that are coming back from Brussels to Edinburgh would then be given straight back with all the restrictions that applied before, and then some.

Alison Thewliss Portrait Alison Thewliss
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Those powers are not being given straight back. If we look at the provisions of the Bill, it is perfectly clear that, as the explanatory notes state:

“This creates a means for the UK Government to provide funding across a range of largely devolved areas that would sit alongside any funding provided by the devolved administrations.”

It is perfectly clear that this as an attack and an undermining of devolution. That is not just my opinion, but an opinion shared by legal experts around the world. The hon. Member is ignoring the truth of the situation. He must know that that is the case. When even senior figures in his party are saying that this is an attack on devolution and are resigning, he should see that that is the case. He knows that it is true.

14:30
Clauses 46 and 47 grant sweeping authority to Ministers to spend money in areas that are devolved to the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly, allowing discretionary funding of any activities that UK Ministers judge directly or indirectly to benefit the United Kingdom. There is a big assumption that what benefits the UK benefits Scotland, but there is precious little evidence for saying that that is true. The Bill allows Ministers of the UK Government to bypass the democratically elected devolved Parliaments of our country without the consent or support of the Scottish people.
The people of Scotland are not daft. They see what is going on. The Bill short-changes us and rides roughshod over hard-fought devolution powers. We were promised near-federalism. We were promised the strongest devolved legislature in the world. What we have got is Dominic Cummings and co. stomping all over the devolution settlement in their great big tackety boots.
It is established that we on the SNP Benches would not trust the UK Government with a bag of old pennies, but it has now become increasingly clear that a majority of Scots agree. The UK Government’s ultimate failed infrastructure project is the Union itself. It cannot exist without consent. Poll after poll now shows a majority of support for independent Scotland, and who can be surprised, when it is fast looking like the only option to preserve the gains of devolution? This tawdry Bill disrespects the Scottish Parliament and the people who elect it, and it will serve only to ensure that when we have our chance to vote again, Scotland will be an independent country.
John Redwood Portrait John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I rise to support clauses 46 and 47 and to disagree with the Opposition amendments. It is a great pity that the SNP wishes to turn every debate in this House into a debate on independence when they lost the referendum, because, as a great democrat, I have only ever wanted willing volunteers in our Union. I was delighted to support a referendum to leave it to the Scottish people, and I trust their judgment—it is a pity others do not as well.

Clauses 46 and 47 take important powers to honour one of the pledges made by the Vote Leave campaign, and believed by many voters in that important referendum, that the United Kingdom Government should replace the moneys for projects and investments that would otherwise have been supplied through the European Union. Taking this power illustrates that there is serious intent, that the Government will honour that promise of the referendum campaign, and that the United Kingdom will not lose—indeed, it will gain—as a result of changes in the arrangements for funding large projects and suitable investments.

I always thought that there were three problems with relying on the European Union to fund some of these projects. The first and biggest was that we had to send far more money to Brussels than we got back. One of the great advantages of this power is that every penny that taxpayers pay in the United Kingdom for these purposes will come straight back. There will not be a huge levy on top.

Alan Brown Portrait Alan Brown
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Taking away the semantics about money and all the rest of it, I am sure that the right hon. Member understands that when it comes to structural funds, the EU disburses it to managing authorities—so in Scotland, the Scottish Parliament gets the money from the EU to administer and carry out projects. Clause 46 allows the UK Government to bypass the Scottish Government completely. The EU has not forced one single infrastructure project on England, Wales or Scotland against the wishes of the sovereign Parliaments, but this measure allows the UK Government to bypass the Scottish Parliament and not to recognise the sovereign will of the Scottish people. Surely that is the problem.

John Redwood Portrait John Redwood
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I do not see any problem at all. I cannot for one moment believe that the United Kingdom Government would want to force on Scotland a project that Scottish people did not wish. Nor do I recognise this idea of the sovereign Scottish Parliament; it is completely under the power of the European Union until we have properly left. The hon. Gentleman never seems to recognise the ultimate power of the European Court of Justice and of the money-awarding procedures that we had to go through to extract back some of the United Kingdom money that we had to send in very large quantities to the union.

Stephen Doughty Portrait Stephen Doughty
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Of course, the right hon. Gentleman has never supported devolution. I think he described it in his own words as “appeasement” and said that we had had too much of it. I know he would love to go back to those days when he was Secretary of State for Wales and was treating Wales like a branch office. Is it not the truth that he has never supported devolution, that he does not support it now, and that he wants to ride roughshod over it?

John Redwood Portrait John Redwood
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No, most certainly that is not the point, and that is not my position. I am a democrat, and I have accepted completely the results of the referendums on devolution. It is quite true that I and my party were on the other side in the referendum on devolution. I believed that it would to lead to a big insurgence in unsuccessful Scottish nationalism, which is exactly what it did, and I do not think that that has enriched our public life any. However, I am a democrat and I fully accept the devolution settlement. I am very happy for the devolved authorities and Parliaments to exercise their powers. I also believe that we should co-operate fully with them, and I urge my Friends on the Front Bench to do so. Of course it is as much in our interests as it is in the interests of the Scottish Parliament to define the projects that Scotland most wants and that are most necessary to promote its prosperity.

Patricia Gibson Portrait Patricia Gibson
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The right hon. Gentleman says he is a democrat. In view of that, does he acknowledge that the Sewel convention says that this Parliament will not normally legislate on areas or matters that are devolved to the Scottish Parliament? We also know that what is not reserved is automatically devolved, so does he think it appropriate to override the Sewel convention and threaten the powers and sovereignty of the Scottish Parliament without the consent of the Scottish Parliament, which is sovereign?

John Redwood Portrait John Redwood
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I do not accept that it does any of those things. I think we are legislating in a perfectly legal and sensible manner.

I shall go back to the remarks I wish to make as to why it is better that we pay for our own projects rather than doing so with the big discounts on our money through the European Union. The second reason for that is that some of the European schemes required the project to be a marginal one. Part of the terms of giving the money was that it was not a project we would finance for ourselves or not a core, essential project. That did not make a lot of sense. Once that is under United Kingdom control, we will obviously jointly wish to finance the best projects, and of course that will be in full consultation with the devolved Governments around the country.

The third reason that I think we will do better without European Union intrusion is the flagging of these projects. There has been deep resentment in the United Kingdom that whenever a small amount of money came from Europe into a project, it had to show the EU flag but we were not allowed to put a British flag on it to say that all the so-called EU money had actually come from United Kingdom taxpayers. Even worse, we were not even allowed to put a British flag on it to show that a larger proportion of the funding for the scheme had often come directly from the United Kingdom Government. It will be much better when we do not have to false-flag projects in the interest of misleading people about who is actually paying for something.

In this debate on the Bill generally, I know that the Opposition are still very exercised in thinking that these and other powers are illegal because they in some way violate the rules of international law set out in the EU withdrawal agreement. State aid is part of that argument, and these are the two central clauses on state aid. I would like to say that I disagree strongly with my right hon. Friend the Northern Ireland Secretary. I do not think there is any way in which this legislation violates international law. It clearly asserts and upholds United Kingdom law, most notably the sovereignty clause in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. That Act was a compromise agreement and a halfway house. It was attached to a political agreement to complete a proper negotiation in due course over our future relationship, so it was always rather problematic; because it was like that, it was ambiguous and contradictory. There are perfectly strong clauses in the EU withdrawal agreement and the EU (Withdrawal) Act stating that it is a duty that the single market and customs union of the whole United Kingdom, which expressly includes Northern Ireland, is upheld. That is exactly what this Bill is seeking to do.

The Government and many others hope that there will be a last-minute agreement, because it is quite easy to deal with all the outstanding legal issues in a comprehensive agreement. I am a bit sceptical that that is going to happen, because I see no evidence of good faith in negotiations by the European Union, and I think that, were there to be a breakdown, there would be a second legal argument that there had not been good faith. That is another reason why there is no sense in which we are seeking to break an international agreement, let alone the law.

I am very pleased that the Government are taking crystal clear powers to provide state aid and investment in projects. I hope the Government will also, ere long, issue a very strong statement of the United Kingdom’s state aid policy that should cover this and other matters. We owe it to the international community to have a strong, clear and independent state aid policy that is perfectly compliant with the World Trade Organisation rules on this matter, because we wish to be a global trader with more free trade agreements outside the European Union space. In that respect, we can probably do better than the European Union, because there have been a number of important cases where the European Union has been found to be in violation of state aid rules by the World Trade Organisation, and perhaps an independent Britain can do a bit better.

Stephen Farry Portrait Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)
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Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the comments emerging from Speaker Pelosi and others in the United States stressing that if there is any breach of the protocol in the withdrawal agreement—a threat to the Good Friday agreement—there will be no prospect of a trade deal with the United States? Is that not the fundamental flaw in the analysis of those pursuing a hard Brexit?

John Redwood Portrait John Redwood
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am not pursuing a hard Brexit; I am pursuing the independence of our country which was voted on all too many years ago and which this Parliament, in a previous guise, deliberately blocked, delayed and diluted. I am very proud to belong to a Parliament that is now clearly charged, yet again, by the electorate of the United Kingdom to get on with it and deliver Brexit. The hon. Gentleman should recognise that Mrs Pelosi is not the President of the United States of America. It is the President who leads the negotiating teams for trade deals, and, as I understand it, President Trump and his International Trade Administration are very keen on a trade agreement with the United Kingdom and still negotiating on it. I suspect that the Democrats in the House of Representatives, who will have their own political reasons for what they are doing at the moment, have not quite understood just how important this Bill is for the future of the United Kingdom single market and customs union—because who would want to do a trade deal with the United Kingdom if we did not have this Bill and could not guarantee that we were pledging the whole of our market in the market opening that such a free trade agreement would require? This Bill is fundamental to any success in negotiations that we have with Japan, the United States, maybe the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership in due course, and so forth.

This is a vital piece of legislation to implement the independence of our country in a true Brexit. It is an entirely legal piece of legislation that reflects important statements in the withdrawal agreement and, above all, reflects a sovereignty clause in the EU (Withdrawal) Act that some of us supported and put in with the express purpose in mind that if there was no good faith from the EU we would need to make unilateral arrangements for our future trading. It is crucial for a country that wishes to have much more positive trade relations than the EU has had with a wide range of countries outside the European Union space.

I look forward to the state aid regime and investment regime being used in the interests of the whole country, with the United Kingdom being able to spend more of its own money on its own priorities, with good guidance and advice from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as we go along, but not forgetting the importance of England and the need for us to have good English projects as well. I hope that it will be twinned with an exemplar state aid policy for world trade purposes that may indeed be different from that of the European Union.

Ben Lake Portrait Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC)
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It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) and, in particular, the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss), whose assessment of the Bill’s deficiencies was exemplary—I very much agree with it. I am conscious that a great many Members wish to contribute to this debate, so I shall keep remarks brief, confining them to clause 46, which extends the powers of UK Ministers to act in policy areas that have been devolved to Wales.

14:45
In recent days, it has been argued that it is necessary to add to the powers of UK Ministers in that way because devolution has, allegedly, hindered their ability to support Welsh businesses and communities. There is no dispute that there are policy areas in Wales in which the UK Government and Ministers cannot act, but the suggestion that they have been prevented from supporting Welsh businesses and communities by the devolution settlement is a laughable excuse for the UK Government’s lacklustre record of investment in Wales.
I should not have to remind this House that UK Ministers still enjoy significant powers over key policy areas, despite devolution, and can initiate large infrastructure projects in Wales that could boost its economy. If Conservative Members doubt that fact, let me point them to their party’s manifestos since 2010, which have all reflected the reality that in key areas of infrastructure and economic investment, the UK Government already have significant powers to support Welsh businesses and communities.
This Government are keen on investing in rail infrastructure, as we see from HS2 and Crossrail, and they also have the responsibility over the railways in Wales. Wales was promised boldly in 2010 that a Conservative Government would electrify the great western main line to Swansea and in 2015 that the valleys lines and the north Wales main line would also be electrified. Despite those lofty promises, the north Wales main line and the valleys line are still not electrified, and after 10 years the promise to electrify the line all the way to Swansea has materialised as a partial electrification to Cardiff Central only. In that key area of infrastructure, there are no limitations on the power of UK Ministers to invest in Wales, and although Wales has about 11% of the railway track, it has received only 1.5% of the money that UK Ministers have spent on rail improvements in recent years. Why, therefore, should UK Ministers be afforded additional powers to act in devolved competences, given that they have failed to make the most of the powers they already have?
Members might also recall the exciting promise to build the tidal lagoon project in Swansea and the commitment to the Wylfa Newydd power plant in Ynys Môn. Regardless of the merits or otherwise of those projects, UK Ministers could have initiated them, unhindered by the supposed shackles of a devolution settlement. However, those projects have amounted to yet more unfulfilled promises.
Alun Cairns Portrait Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
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I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman followed the debate surrounding the valleys and the Vale of Glamorgan line. A settlement had been reached between the Department for Transport, the Wales Office and the Welsh Government, where an additional sum over and above the Barnett block grant was presented to the Welsh Government to deliver that purpose. No progress has been made, so I think his argument makes a point that is very helpful to the clauses in place.

Ben Lake Portrait Ben Lake
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Unsurprisingly, I disagree with the right hon. Gentleman. These are competences and responsibilities of the UK Government and the Department for Transport, and they have not fulfilled them. We might also think of the powers that UK Ministers have over Welsh agricultural exports and question whether they are being exercised effectively. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs recently failed to submit an application to the World Organisation for Animal Health for Welsh beef—and English beef, I should add—to be listed as a negligible bovine spongiform encephalopathy risk, so that status will now not be possible for our exports before May 2022 at the earliest, along with all the benefits that that status would bring.

In conclusion, in opposing clause 46, I simply say to UK Ministers who bemoan devolution and Wales’s Parliament: stop scrambling for pitiful excuses for your own failures, take your responsibilities to Wales seriously and start using the powers that you already have.

Colum Eastwood Portrait Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I rise to speak to amendment 19, which stands in my name and those of my hon. Friends the Members for Belfast South (Claire Hanna) and for North Down (Stephen Farry). Before I get into the meat of it, I wish to pick up on something the right hon. Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) addressed, as I think that he is confused about how the American political system works. As much as he would like to be, Donald Trump is not a dictator; he does not get to make all the decisions. If there is to be a proposed trade deal between the US and the UK, Congress will have to approve it. I can tell Members, as I did the other day, that we have lots of very good friends on Capitol hill—I have been speaking to them this week—and I am shocked at how angry they are about what this British Government are proposing to do to the protocol and the withdrawal agreement. They will not have any violence done to the Good Friday agreement or this protocol.

Stephen Doughty Portrait Stephen Doughty
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Gentleman is making a crucial point. Of course, it is not just Speaker Pelosi making these points. Legislators on both sides of the US Congress—Republican and Democrat—are making clear what will happen.

Colum Eastwood Portrait Colum Eastwood
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The consensus across Congress is behind the Good Friday agreement. They have been our friends for many a decade. They have supported us through all the difficult times, and they are supporting us today. They are saying that there will not be a trade deal between the United States and this country if we do any damage to the protocol or the Good Friday agreement. That is what they have said, and people should listen.

Sammy Wilson Portrait Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am amazed at the hon. Gentleman’s comments. He will know that our biggest trading partner outside GB is the United States of America, so any trade deal with America is bound to have a beneficial impact on the people of Northern Ireland and the economy of Northern Ireland. Is he telling us that his party will actively campaign against a trade deal with America that would benefit his constituents, my constituents and the Northern Ireland economy?

Colum Eastwood Portrait Colum Eastwood
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We want a trade deal. We want to be able to trade right around the world, but the warning is clear: if people mess about with the Good Friday agreement and all our political progress, there will be no trade deal. The people who proposed and campaigned for Brexit and who do not understand that we cannot square all these circles need to wake up. There will not be a trade deal if they continue on the track that they are on. There is still time to go backwards and realise that our peace process, our political progress and having no border in Ireland are paramount and will not be messed with—that will not be accepted by anybody at the height of political power in the United States.

The Bill is an affront to international law, as has been said many times this week. It rips up an agreement that was made between this Government and the European Commission. It threatens a hard border in Ireland, and in clauses 46 and 47, it rides a coach and horses through the devolutionary settlements for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. If that was done on its own, there would be an outcry. Our amendment 19 is there to give consent—the much-used word—to those legislative Assemblies and Parliaments. No Whitehall Minister should be allowed to override, deny or undermine the interests and opinions of elected representatives in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. If Members agree with that, they should support amendment 19.

Where I come from, we value democracy, because people had to actually march for democracy there. In 1968, my own grandfather and hundreds of other people were beaten off the streets by a corrupt and unjust police force sent there by a corrupt, sectarian and unjust Government. The civil rights movement got rid of that Government, but it took 30 years of democratic struggle against the men of violence, against the state and against intransigence, sectarianism and division to bring about an end to that and make sure that our own people could be represented by local politicians, making local decisions on their behalf. That was not easy; it was very difficult. They created a delicate agreement called the Good Friday agreement.

The Good Friday agreement has been bandied about this House and on the airwaves over the past couple of weeks. I can tell Members that it is fragile and delicate. Even the Members from Northern Ireland who disagree with me will be able to agree with me on this point. We are in a very delicate and fragile place. Please do not mess with it. Please do not ride a coach and horses through it. There is no way, in my view, that we can hand power to Whitehall Ministers to make decisions over the heads of locally elected people in Northern Ireland and not upset that delicate, painstakingly negotiated balance. Nationalists, Unionists and others are working together in the common interest. Is it difficult? It is very difficult. Is it delicate? Yes, it absolutely is. Is it fragile? Well, we have had three years of no Government, so that should tell us all about the fragility of those institutions. We are not prepared to wreck or hinder that progress.

Sammy Wilson Portrait Sammy Wilson
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am amazed at the hon. Gentleman’s defence—[Interruption.] Yes, I am amazed at everything he is saying. First, he is quite happy not to have a trade deal with America—that will damage the economy of Northern Ireland—and now he is defending the Northern Ireland Assembly’s ability to make decisions about the economy of Northern Ireland, when this withdrawal agreement leaves 60% of the laws in Northern Ireland in the hands of Brussels. The Bill seeks at least to free us from Brussels’s ability to take what support we can give to our industry.

Colum Eastwood Portrait Colum Eastwood
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

This withdrawal agreement took a long time to negotiate. The British Government and this Prime Minister signed up to it, and it was called a fantastic deal. It was to protect us from a hard border in Ireland. We spent 30 years trying to get rid of hard borders and division and trying to bring people together to allow local people to work together to make decisions on behalf of local communities.

I cannot understand how anybody who is supposed to be a devolutionist and whose party is in government—even though the right hon. Gentleman is sometimes at odds with the leadership of his party—would want any Minister based in Whitehall to make decisions over the heads of the Democratic Unionist party, Sinn Féin, the Social Democratic and Labour party, the Alliance party or the Ulster Unionist party. This Bill would allow a Whitehall Minister to override the wishes and very strong views of people in Northern Ireland on issues such as fracking and water charges. Who wants to see that happen in our devolved areas?

More than any policy risk, the Bill creates even more instability in our system, and we cannot afford that. Just look at what has happened over the past number of years. Alongside the attack on the protocol and the risk of a hard border in Ireland, the Bill rides a coach and horses through the Good Friday agreement in so many ways. If this Government, as they profess, support the Good Friday agreement and devolution and want local people to work together, spilling their sweat and not their blood, to bring about economic progress and change how society works, they will take away the risk of the Bill, because causes 46 and 47 would override, undercut and undermine all that progress.

John Hayes Portrait Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

At the heart of the purpose of politics is a marriage between the common good and the national interest, and trade is at the heart of both. This Bill—in particular, clauses 46 and 47—makes that principle real, yet the supporters of these amendments seem either unaware or unwilling to accept that trade is a national policy and has to be determined in the interests of the whole kingdom. Of course, as the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) said, co-operation and collaboration are necessary with the constituent parts of that kingdom, but in the end trade deals are negotiated by the Government as a whole.

The idea vested in the amendments in this group—notably, amendment 33—that Ministers should act only with the permission of people in those constituent parts is preposterous, as anyone on either side of the House who has served as a Minister knows. Of course, collaboration requires a relationship between those in the devolved Assemblies and Ministers here, but that relationship is one in which the devolved Minister knows that the buck starts and stops with the national Government.

Alan Brown Portrait Alan Brown
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am not sure whether the right hon. Gentleman has read clause 46 or the amendment correctly. Clause 46 says:

“A Minister of the Crown may…provide financial assistance”

in respect of matters of devolved interest. It is not about trade; it is about the UK Government being able to take decisions on behalf of the devolved nations on matters that are otherwise devolved. Why is it so objectionable to seek the consent of the devolved Administrations on matters that should be devolved anyway?

00:01
John Hayes Portrait Sir John Hayes
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The problem at the heart of the hon. Gentleman’s proposition—this was reflected in the opening speech by the hon. Member for Glasgow Central—is that the Scottish National party, the Scottish separatists, believe that the relationship between the United Kingdom Government and the people of Scotland should be devised and delivered only through the prism of them and their friends. The truth of the matter is that the United Kingdom Government have a relationship with Scotland irrespective of the SNP and its friends.

Alan Brown Portrait Alan Brown
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

John Hayes Portrait Sir John Hayes
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

No, I will not give way again.

John Hayes Portrait Sir John Hayes
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

No. I say to the hon. Gentleman that I am conscious of your strictures, Dame Eleanor, that we should not stray into the realms of loquaciousness. Many other Members on both sides of the Chamber wish to contribute, so I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman, with whom I have shared many arguments and, indeed, many agreements over a considerable period of time. I suspect that we are not going to agree about this.

John Hayes Portrait Sir John Hayes
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am not going to give way. I have made that clear.

Although it is true that the vast majority of the people of Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland may not be gripped every waking moment by the minutiae of British politics, millions of patriotic Britons across all parts of our kingdom, in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland—small business owners, farmers, fishermen, employers, workers; everyone from trade unionists to tree surgeons—expect this Government to get Brexit done and to strike trade deals in the national interest and for the common good. It is as straightforward as that. Anything that provides an impediment to that desire is not only unacceptable but directly contradicts the will of the people. This sovereign Parliament’s mission—its duty—is to embody the will of the people, to respect it and to deliver on it. I am afraid the amendments before us would impede that process, whether that is their intent or not. I will be generous and make it clear that I am not alleging that that is their intent, but it would certainly be their effect.

Perhaps saddest of all are the amendments in the group tabled in the name of the official Opposition. I see sat at the Dispatch Box the hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield), an old friend, looking as sorrowful as I am when I have to make that charge. The official Opposition is a Unionist party, yet it is clear from the amendments in their name that they have gone along with the idea that Ministers of the Crown should be required—yes, required—to seek and gain the consent of devolved Ministers before proceeding with what they believe is in the national interest. I have to say, I am disappointed about that, and it is another reason why we should vote against the amendments in the entire group and support the Bill unamended.

The shared interest of the people of Britain—the common good, as I described it—has been endangered; indeed, it has been diluted, year after year, through our relationship with the European Union, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) set out earlier in his excellent speech. Taking back control is in the people’s interest, because it will allow us to develop policies that are pertinent to that interest in every part of the United Kingdom.

The debate we are having about the Bill is to some degree rather recherché. It reminds me of the debates we have had in recent times between those who wanted to honour the people’s will, expressed in the referendum, and those who were unreconstructed remainers. Many who campaigned to stay in the European Union have accepted the result and gone along with it, because they believe it was a once-and-for-all decision that should be honoured, but there are those—we have seen them persistently in recent times—who did not accept it. Perhaps, tied to their kind of bourgeois, liberal, doubt-filled, guilt-ridden perspective on world affairs, they were unwilling to recognise that that is a world apart from the view of working-class Britons, as the referendum and the general election showed. That is, in large part, an explanation for why my party seized power in constituencies across the country, particularly in the midlands and north, that it had never represented before. Those people in those places have woken up to the fact that that elite had no understanding and no care for their sentiments or their interests and could not really grasp why they believed that it was right that our trade policies, our policies on migration and other matters should be determined by this sovereign Parliament speaking for those very people.

None Portrait Several hon. Members rose—
- Hansard -

John Hayes Portrait Sir John Hayes
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will give way one more time. As I have given way to a Scottish separatist already, I will give way to the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) as a matter of courtesy.

Colum Eastwood Portrait Colum Eastwood
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Can I ask the right hon. Gentleman a simple question? How many seats did his party win in Northern Ireland?

John Hayes Portrait Sir John Hayes
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am sorry, but I did not catch what the hon. Gentleman said—forgive me.

Colum Eastwood Portrait Colum Eastwood
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The right hon. Gentleman spoke a lot about the last election and about how many seats the Conservative party won. Can I just ask him how many seats the Conservative party won in Northern Ireland?

John Hayes Portrait Sir John Hayes
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The Northern Irish political dynamic is a subject that I will not stray into, Dame Eleanor, because you would not permit me to do so.

Eleanor Laing Portrait The Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing)
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The right hon. Gentleman is correct: I will not permit it. This is Committee stage of the Bill and not a general debate, and we will stick to the point, which he was doing admirably.

John Hayes Portrait Sir John Hayes
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am very grateful, Dame Eleanor. Any time the hon. Gentleman wants to debate Northern Irish psephology with me over a glass of Irish whiskey, I would be happy to do so.

The essence of the debate this evening—I mean this afternoon, but I am anticipating a long debate, as you can tell—is really not about whether the devolution settlement is as the SNP would want it to be or as it actually is, which is a productive relationship, I think, between those in the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Ministers with the United Kingdom Government. Certainly, that was how it was when I was a Minister—I had a very positive relationship with my friends in Scotland and Wales and throughout our kingdom. It is not really about that. It is about whether we believe that the Government’s hands should be tied in the negotiations as they go forward and try to strike the best possible deal with the European Union. No responsible Member of this Parliament should want to dilute the strength of our position in those negotiations in what is, inevitably, a challenging process with a very wily European Union. Whatever one thinks about the faults and frailties of the EU, and I could speak at great length about them, no one would deny that it is experienced, determined and wily in its attempts to defend the EU’s interests. We must be as united and strong as we can be in backing those who are fighting for Britain, as our Prime Minister is, has and will continue to do.

In drawing my remarks to a conclusion, Dame Eleanor —I know that you will be pleased that I am about to, although disappointed simultaneously—let me say this. It is absolutely true that, in gauging both trade policy and infrastructural investment, we need to be mindful of the particularities of the needs and wants of people across the kingdom, and of course different circumstances prevail in different parts of the UK. Good Governments and good Ministers have always done so, but, in the end, it is for the national Government—it is for the Queen’s Ministers—to make decisions on these matters, and however much that may trouble those who have moved the bulk of these amendments, I have to tell them that it is how it is and how it is going to be. We will back Britain. We will back Boris and in doing so we will get the best possible deal.

Alex Sobel Portrait Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op)
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I stand here after three of the most bizarre years of constitutional contortions, when parliamentary conventions were stretched to their very limits. However, on Monday we topped them all when Government Members voted to breach the very same withdrawal agreement they voted for just months ago. We have to wonder what the point is of making law and entering international agreement when just months later the Government seek to overturn it. The same Members who voted to breach the withdrawal agreement had hailed the Prime Minister’s renegotiation of it as a masterstroke and then campaigned for it and voted to enact it.

I cannot compete with my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) in making the Prime Minister look like a petulant child, so I will not try, but I will try to make Members opposite think about the damage they are doing to our international standing, to their individual reputations and to the fabric of our Union, and to a Bill which could render the Good Friday agreement asunder.

I have some interest in constitutional law; I know the power it has to create new opportunities, to spread power to the people, and to have decisions made closer to where people live, but this Bill is about putting the foot down on the accelerator and driving the constitutional settlement off a cliff with the Union as its trailer. Clause 46 breaks the settled will of the devolved nations, so allow me to outline some of the problems with this Bill.

First, there is the Executive power grab: the Bill has enabling clauses that enable a Minister to make unilateral regulations. Secondly, there is the breach of existing law: the enabling clauses allow a Minister to create regulations regardless of whether those regulations are in breach of domestic and international law. Let that sink in for a second before I carry on: we are giving Ministers the power to break the law.

Clause 46 allows pork barrelling, a US practice allowing for Government spending for local projects to help a politician in their constituency. It allows pork barrelling by ministerial diktat and over the heads of devolved bodies. The Bill not only creates a situation where the Government are in breach of the UK’s obligations under the withdrawal agreement, but it would provide the statutory basis for new regulations to be made by Ministers that are also in breach of UK and international law.

This does have recent precedent. The Coronavirus Act 2020 gave the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care similar powers, which we saw implemented this week when the new health regulations were published allegedly 28 minutes before they came into force. So 29 minutes later, a family of three meeting a family of four could have been in breach of the law, after a flick of the Secretary of State’s pen, with no warning. So, soon we will have two laws, covering coronavirus and Brexit, where Ministers can create law by diktat, and in the case of Brexit break already agreed international law. We must therefore ask whether Parliament’s only purpose will be to provide a body of personnel to fill the Executive and oversee some functions as a law-making body. This means that when it comes to devolved bodies having to make spending and funding decisions, clause 46 will take it over their heads, and they will be denuded of their powers.

Far from bringing sovereignty to our shores, this Government are stripping our sovereign Parliament of its powers piece by piece, and doing the same to the devolved bodies. The Government’s real purpose is a power grab: they are using a difficult situation as a subterfuge to hoodwink the public. The checks and balances are being eroded—[Interruption.] Yes, they are; Government Members are shaking their heads. Those who are meant to safeguard are brought into the pretence and belittle their own office: the Attorney General, the Solicitor General, and the Lord Chancellor. The Advocate General for Scotland has at least shown proper respect for the law by resigning—or at least attempting to resign by tendering his resignation—and the Northern Ireland Secretary himself admitted this Bill breaks the law

“in a very specific and limited way.”—[Official Report, 8 September 2020; Vol. 679, c. 509.]

However, a breach of the law is a breach the law, so any breaking of the law in a very specific and limited way is no defence in court: the law does not discriminate on specificity.

Even the need for this Bill has been ridiculed by more constitutional experts than I could possibly name. The Government argue that the powers are needed in case they need to rapidly implement safeguards under article 16 of the Northern Ireland protocol, but Professor Mark Elliott, chair of the Faculty of Law at Cambridge University, argues that clauses 42 and 43—I know that we are not debating those today; I will come to the point about those later—

“bear little relation to the matters with which Article 16 is concerned”.

15:15
The Government argue that the powers are needed in case they rapidly need to do what article 62 of the Vienna convention allows, but article 62 requires a “fundamental change of circumstances” and permits only withdrawal or termination, not repudiation, of individual obligations. That means that the clauses we are discussing today are not necessary, because those circumstances have not been met and will not be met, even in the case of a no-deal Brexit.
The Government further argue that the withdrawal agreement is a special form of treaty because it presupposes a future relationship agreement—the agreement that they are currently negotiating—so it is okay to breach the withdrawal agreement if no free trade agreement materialises. Not only is that news to the European Union, but Professor Elliott says categorically that no special form of treaty exists.
Then there is the Lord Chancellor’s argument that the Bill would amount to an acceptable, rather than unacceptable, breach of the law. Again, Professor Elliott argues that no such distinction in law exists. He concludes that there is no justification for the power grab in this Bill. I could quote 100 different constitutional experts on different clauses of the Bill, making the Government’s arguments look so much like chopped salami, but I need to make progress and allow colleagues to speak—much good that will do us after this power grab.
Fay Jones Portrait Fay Jones (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)
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The hon. Gentleman is making a passionate speech and I am grateful to him for giving way. Could he please tell me which powers are being taken away from the Welsh Parliament?

Alex Sobel Portrait Alex Sobel
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There is a list of areas in clause 46 where the Government are taking powers for direct funding into the devolved nations.

The upshot is that passing the Bill intact would not provide a safety valve or insurance if the Government’s oven-ready deal threatened to burn down the house; if the house burned down, the tenants—our home nations—would rebuild it several feet apart, ending our historic Union. The Government never were honest that leaving the European Union would create an existential threat to our United Kingdom. They have never addressed the inherent tensions that they themselves created and that the Bill deepens rather than resolves.

Upending our international reputation as a nation that upholds the law, and creating the barriers to trade that no deal would create, will have severe consequences and threatens creating an unstoppable force that will cause our nation’s fabric to be permanently rent asunder. I cannot support that, and neither should Government Members. That is why I support the Labour Front-Bench amendments in the name of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer).

Stephen Crabb Portrait Stephen Crabb
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It is a privilege to speak so early in the debate. I rise in support of clauses 46 and 47 and to put on the record my support for the general principles of the Bill.

The Bill is an essential building block of a successful and orderly Brexit and of a successful economy. People who say that they believe in those things need to back the Bill very strongly. People who say that they believe in getting on with Brexit should support the Bill. People who say that they support the Union and recognise the importance of a seamless internal market for the whole United Kingdom need to support the Bill.

The Labour party says that it is in favour of all those things, yet on Second Reading on Monday night, again yesterday and again today, they have found reasons not to give the Bill their support. That is very telling. Here we are in 2020 and it is just like 2017, 2018 and 2019, with the Labour party finding every excuse—using every trick in the book—to try to water down and get in the way of the successful delivery of Brexit and the successful safeguarding of the whole UK internal market.

At the heart of the Bill are borders and barriers. The Bill respects the borders that exist within our United Kingdom—it reflects the fact that we are a family of different nations within our United Kingdom—but it takes steps to avoid those borders becoming barriers to trade and prosperity for all parts of the United Kingdom. As a Unionist, I come at these issues from a position fundamentally different from that of, say, a nationalist such as the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss), who eloquently started this debate. We come at these issues from fundamentally different perspectives. The problem I have this afternoon is with the Labour position, because it says that it is a Unionist party and in favour of getting on with Brexit, and yet the position this afternoon suggests something different.

I am a Member of Parliament in Wales, and I worry about Welsh politics when I see the Welsh Labour party continuing its slide towards becoming a branch of the nationalist movement. We are talking this afternoon, with the clauses and amendments that are on the table, about limits to UK authority and legitimacy in all parts of the United Kingdom. It is about putting up barriers to stop this Parliament and the elected UK Government having authority and legitimacy in every part of the United Kingdom. I completely respect the position of Plaid Cymru and SNP friends, because they see the world through a fundamentally different prism.

John Hayes Portrait Sir John Hayes
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My right hon. Friend is making an excellent point that is well illustrated by the official Opposition’s amendment 16, which says that any moneys spent in the devolved nations must be “subject to allocation” by those Parliaments. The preposterous idea proposed by the Labour party is that Ministers of the Crown—this Government—cannot spend money in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland without the devolved Assemblies allocating that money or choosing not to.

Stephen Crabb Portrait Stephen Crabb
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My right hon. Friend makes an important point, but let me be absolutely clear: I believe in devolution. Other Conservative Members may have different views, but I believe in devolution. When I was Secretary of State for Wales, I was charged with translating the Silk commission into a workable plan to devolve whole suites of new powers to the Welsh Government in Cardiff Bay, and I did that happily, because I believe in seeing devolution become stronger for Wales. When my right hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) succeeded me as Welsh Secretary, he continued in that vein. We are part of a Government that have devolved powers to the Welsh Government and the Scottish Government.

However, the response from the Welsh Labour Government every step of the way—I had a running joke with the former First Minister Carwyn Jones about this in our Monday morning meetings in his office in Cardiff Bay—would be, “This is a rollback of the devolution settlement.” It does not matter what new powers we give to the Welsh Government, the response will always be, “This is a rollback. This is a power grab.”

Alan Brown Portrait Alan Brown
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Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Stephen Crabb Portrait Stephen Crabb
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I will not give way again, because lots of colleagues want to speak.

The Bill strikes the right pragmatic balance in how it goes about strengthening the devolution settlement in the context of bringing back powers from the EU to the Governments of our internal market and how we divide up those powers and share them among the legitimate elected bodies that now constitute our constitution across the United Kingdom.

I want to speak in some more detail about the expenditure powers, which I support, that we are really debating under this part of the Bill. I do not support UK Ministers wanting to become the default authority for spending in devolved areas, but that is not what this is all about. This is actually about recognising that the UK Government have a duty of care for their citizens in every part of the United Kingdom, and that should not be a controversial thing. It certainly should not be controversial to Unionists that the UK Government should be able to spend money in all parts of the United Kingdom. When did the vision of devolution ever become about stopping this place having any kind of writ of authority in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland?

Fay Jones Portrait Fay Jones
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On that point, this Bill could not be better timed as people recover from covid-19. Investing in jobs and livelihoods and generating prosperity in all four corners of the United Kingdom is exactly what this Government should be doing.

Stephen Crabb Portrait Stephen Crabb
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My hon. Friend is absolutely right. There is a pragmatic purpose at the heart of the Bill, as well as a constitutional one. Again, I remember back to the days I was Secretary of State for Wales: there was no shortage of Opposition Members wanting to come to the Wales Office to discuss projects for which they were desperate to see funding. Time and again, we had to say to Labour colleagues, “I am so sorry, we do not have the ability to support that essential, important work with funding,” and they went away disappointed. I am so disappointed to see that Labour Members are actually falling into line behind the nationalist position today and saying that we should not have the ability to fund projects.

If hon. Members want specific examples, earlier this year we had devastating floods affecting Wales. Loads of rugby clubs in south Wales had infrastructure damaged.

Could we support the Welsh Rugby Union when we were asked for funding to support those rugby clubs in Wales|? No, because the devolution settlement said we had no right to be able to do that. I could give other examples. I could talk about the towns fund, which has previously been mentioned in this debate. Labour Members earlier this year stood up and said that they wanted to see their towns and their communities benefit from the towns fund. We could not do it: the devolution settlement said no.

Surely it is not right that the elected UK Government are forbidden, blocked and barred from being able to act in these areas—yes, acting in partnership, in concert, with the devolved Administrations. I strongly welcome the measures in the Bill and I am opposed to a devo-lock—a devolution barrier or block—against the UK Government acting.

Alan Brown Portrait Alan Brown
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The right hon. Member says that he believes in devolution and respects it. Does he not share my concerns that even the Tory Chair of the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee says that clause 46 creates new reservations, so by default that means disrespecting the devolution settlement? The Chair’s letter to the Minister for the Cabinet Office also said

“it would be preferable for legislative consent to be given by each of the devolved legislatures.”

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with that sentiment—that an LCM should be obtained before the Bill is imposed on the devolved Administrations?

Stephen Crabb Portrait Stephen Crabb
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It would be great—it would be perfectly neat—if LCMs were provided, but we are in a political context where, unfortunately, that looks very unlikely, because we are dealing with such big issues as Brexit and the future of our Union. We know that the representatives in government in Cardiff Bay and in Edinburgh have a fundamentally different view of the world from ours.

I shall end by saying something about the shared prosperity fund. I am the Chair of the Welsh Affairs Committee and we have been taking evidence on this. Even though I very strongly support the Bill, I want to register a concern with the those on the Front Bench about the progress of work in Whitehall on the shared prosperity fund. It is patently clear from the evidence that we have received that the pace of work is nowhere near fast enough, given the timescales involved for replacing the EU funds. There is a real need now for Ministers to step up the activity levels.

I also think that, again speaking to the Front Benchers, we need a bit more clarity and transparency on what the future of those funds will be. Even though I support the powers in the Bill this afternoon, in terms of building trust and good will with the devolved Administrations there is certainly a need for a much more detailed conversation about the future of the funds.

Caroline Lucas Portrait Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
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I am pleased to follow the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb) because I want to disagree very strongly with many of the things he said, but one of the points that he made was that opposition to the Bill is about our views on Brexit. I want to say loudly and clearly that opposition to the Bill has actually got nothing to do with our views on Brexit and everything to do with our views on who we are as a country, on whether we want to uphold international law and on the most basic principles of liberal democracy. The Bill is a shameful, shabby, squalid Bill that will break international law, trash our reputation overseas, undermine the withdrawal agreement, destabilise Northern Ireland and wreck the devolution settlement.

I rise to speak to amendment 20 in my name. Let me say straightaway that I completely support the case that has been made so eloquently by Opposition Members about the importance of protecting devolution. I have enormous sympathy for those who, frankly, would start again and get rid of clause 46 entirely. I would support that, but for as long as it is part of the Bill, my case is that it needs strong amendment.

Amendment 20 would set out that

“Any financial assistance provided under this section must be consistent with the achievement of any climate and environmental goals and targets applicable”.

Financial assistance spending can have major environmental impacts, which can be negative. We have heard from the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss), for example, some of the most egregious examples of how money has been used in a negative, incompetent and environmentally damaging way. Examples include road building where the evidence suggests that it leads to more driving and more emissions. Or, of course, money can be spent in a positive way, kick-starting new, good-quality, innovative green industries and jobs, and supporting progressive climate and environmental policy.

15:30
Using financial assistance well is particularly important ahead of this year’s UN climate change conference, which as we know the UK is hosting. Yet without amendment 20, the powers in the Bill to provide assistance would be subject to very little direction and very few restrictions. That is a gross dereliction of duty in the face of the climate and nature emergency that we face. Take yesterday’s report by the UN Convention on Biological Diversity, for example, which concluded:
“Humanity is at a crossroads and we have to take action now to make space for nature to recover and slow its ‘accelerating decline’.”
Ministers have been warned of this reality time and again. If they do not listen to that, perhaps they will heed the warnings in this week’s alarm-ringing, klaxon-sounding, deafening, heartbreaking, anger-stirring film from David Attenborough, whose documentary, “Extinction: The Facts”, laid the tragedy bare. With an eighth of the planet’s species at risk of dying out, he sets out the stark devastation that humans have wreaked, and are wreaking, on the natural world.
The evidence keeps rolling in. New analysis just this week from the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds has revealed a lost decade for nature, with the UK failing to reach 17 of its 20 biodiversity targets. Indeed, on six of them we are going backwards. Last year, the RSPB’s “State of Nature” report for the UK found that 41% of UK species are declining and one in 10 is threatened with extinction.
These things do not happen by accident. They happen as a direct result of public policy and where money is spent, so it is critical that if and when Ministers choose to exercise these powers to give direct financial assistance, they do so in a manner that is both consistent and compatible with any environmental and climate goals and targets in the relevant parts of the UK. That should cover existing goals and targets, and any future goals and targets that are applicable when the powers are exercised. Those goals and targets would include things such as countries’ respective targets on climate reduction and net zero, new targets to be set under the Environment Bill, recycling targets, and so on.
In short, the purpose of amendment 20 is to try to ensure that we tackle the nature and climate emergencies we face. Public money should not be used to support projects, companies or industries that threaten to undermine progress towards meeting stated and binding environmental goals and targets—something on which, unfortunately, the Government have form. We have seen them, in the aftermath of trying to cope with the worst of covid, giving money to aviation companies without any of the conditions that apply in, for example, France, where money is required to be used to research better, less damaging fuels, and not for flights that are in direct competition with rail routes.
Here, the UK Government have made absolutely no attempt whatsoever to be mindful of the environmental impacts of the money they are spending. That is in spite of all the rhetoric we hear about the importance of a green recovery. If Ministers are serious about a green recovery, they should regard my amendment as a helpful reminder rather than as any kind of threat. I hope the Minister will be able to stand up at the end of this debate and say that she entirely supports it.
As well as putting on record the importance of amendment 20, I would briefly like to put on record my support for the other Opposition amendments in this group that seek to protect devolved powers and ensure fair funding to all nations of the UK. They include provisions to require the Government to secure the agreement of devolved Ministers before enacting their priorities over those of the devolved Administrations. Doing otherwise would mean exactly the kind of power grab that my colleagues have been talking about. That is unacceptable. It seems sometimes that the other side do not quite understand what devolution means. Devolution is a permanent part of our constitution, and has been for 20 years; and it is wrong and reckless of this cavalier Prime Minister to seek to undermine it.
Alun Cairns Portrait Alun Cairns
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

If the UK Government were asked to support an environmental scheme that was cross-border and would raise environmental standards in a devolved Administration, the logic of the hon. Lady’s argument is that she would oppose it.

Caroline Lucas Portrait Caroline Lucas
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I do not think that is the logic of what I am proposing. It is perfectly possible to uphold the principle of devolution and that of saying that standards should be high. I do not quite understand why the right hon. Member has a problem with that.

The Government have a huge opportunity to reset the economy to create a just transition, with good green jobs to safeguard livelihoods and our precious and irreplaceable natural environment. The aim of amendment 20 is to make that opportunity a reality. I hope that a separate decision on this vital amendment will be possible, as it would do something different from the other amendments in the group—we are in a climate emergency, as this very House has declared—but if that is not possible, I hope we can return to it on Report, as no doubt many colleagues in the other place support the aims of the amendment and share my concerns. The amendment matters to millions of people around the country who care deeply about nature and the climate and are deeply concerned about the use of public money undermining those aims.

In conclusion, other amendments in this group are indeed vital. My amendment makes a separate but complementary point. It is about outcomes, not just process. The Bill takes breathtakingly wide powers following our departure from the EU. This is about how those powers are implemented. No other amendment in the group deals with that.

Andrew Bowie Portrait Andrew Bowie
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is an unusual pleasure to speak so early in a debate.

I am delighted to stand to support Government clauses 46 and 47 and to speak against the amendments in the name of the official Opposition and the Scottish national party and the other amendments. I have only been in the House for three years—it sometimes feels like 30, given what we have been through since 2017—but these amendments and the arguments, especially those from the SNP, against the clauses, are among the most remarkable things I have seen, despite what we have been through in the last three years. The governing party of one of the devolved nations in this country is tabling amendments and using arguments that would prevent more money being spent in that nation. It is frankly astounding.

Chris Bryant Portrait Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
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Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Andrew Bowie Portrait Andrew Bowie
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I have only just started, but as it is the hon. Member, yes, of course.

Chris Bryant Portrait Chris Bryant
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I agree with the hon. Member about nationalism and separatism and all that, but we are a bit cynical and sceptical about offers from the Government at the moment. I have been trying to get £130 million outside the envelope for the flooding earlier this year in the Rhondda, but so far we have not seen a penny, not even for the coal tip that collapsed into the river at Tylorstown, which needs 60,000 tonnes removing. We still have not seen the £1.2 million. That is a Westminster responsibility.

Andrew Bowie Portrait Andrew Bowie
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am reliably informed by a former Secretary of State for Wales, my right hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb), that that is a devolved responsibility, which is one reason why the hon. Member should vote for the Bill next week and against the Opposition amendments this evening.

Not only are these arguments incredible; they are also based on a complete falsehood: that the powers in the Bill, which will allow the UK Government to spend directly on specific projects in Scotland—I will contain my remarks to Scotland for obvious reasons—for the first time in 20 years, will somehow undermine devolution. This is not true.

Alan Brown Portrait Alan Brown
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

As I said earlier, the Tory Chair of the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Mr Wragg) has stated clearly that the Bill will create new powers of reservation. It is ripping up the devolution settlement. When will Conservative Members understand that there is a massive difference between protecting devolution and protecting the powers of the Scottish Parliament and what they see, which is an SNP Scottish Government? It is about respecting devolution and the Scottish Parliament.

Andrew Bowie Portrait Andrew Bowie
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I would have to see the details of what my hon. Friend the Chair of PACAC said. I would have to study it before responding, but I must stress that creating more powers is not ripping up the devolution settlement. That is not the case. The founding father of devolution, Donald Dewar, a Scottish Labour Member—there are not many left in this place these days—stated that devolution was a journey, not a one-way street. We need to have a discussion about where powers are best held, and that is what we are doing here today.

What is most remarkable about these arguments and the amendments that have been tabled by the SNP today is that they are drafted by parties that want to take Scotland and Wales back into the European Union. The SNP made much yesterday, and has again today, of the Competition and Markets Authority and the Office for the Internal Market, while the hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) spoke about autocratic Ministers of the Crown spending in Scotland. The hon. Member for Midlothian (Owen Thompson) yesterday decried the need for the Office for the Internal Market, claiming it was unnecessary, undemocratic and appointed, and complaining that it would

“decide whether a Bill met the test of the internal market, putting permanent constraints on the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments and the Northern Irish Assembly.”—[Official Report, 15 September 2020; Vol. 680, c. 248.]

That is quite remarkable from a party determined to take Scotland back into the European Union, but then maybe I missed the complaints from SNP Members when, in August 2015, the unelected and unaccountable European Commission suspended the payment of more than £45 million to the Scottish Government, under the European social fund, due to accounting “irregularities” and because it had not been given specific assurances from the Scottish Government as to how the money was being spent.

I must also, then, have missed hon. Members’ complaints to the—again—unelected and unaccountable European Commission when it threatened to fine the Scottish Government £125 million for botching up the farm payments system in 2015-16. I hate to break it to the SNP, but the restrictions placed on member states in order to preserve the internal market of the European Union are much—inordinately—more prohibitive than anything we are proposing here today.

After Brexit—indeed, because of Brexit—the Scottish Government will be free to spend, and indeed mis-spend, and free to exercise their expanded and increasing powers as they see fit. Nothing in the Bill threatens that in any way whatsoever—no powers to curb spending or cut revenue, no powers to fine for messing up payment systems, more money, more power, protecting jobs. What on earth is it in the Bill that the SNP could be objecting to so much? Why on earth is the SNP so happy to accept EU cash, with all the rules and regulations around spending and how it is spent, but will not allow the British Government to spend directly on specific projects that will benefit the lives of individual Scots?

None Portrait Several hon. Members rose—
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Andrew Bowie Portrait Andrew Bowie
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am spoiled for choice, but I will give way to the hon. Member for Glasgow Central.

Alison Thewliss Portrait Alison Thewliss
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I have a question for the hon. Gentleman. Why does he feel it is appropriate for the UK Government to spend money on courts and prison facilities in Scotland?

Andrew Bowie Portrait Andrew Bowie
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I think it is appropriate for the UK Government to be able to spend on projects that will benefit people in every corner of the United Kingdom, and that is why I am voting for the Bill next week and why I am going to oppose the amendments tabled by the hon. Lady. I will tell the Committee why the SNP is so against the Bill—because with the SNP, it is Brussels over Britain, any day of the week. SNP Members do not care that this Bill protects jobs. They do not care that it enshrines in statute the existence of Scotland’s most important market. They do not care that it could mean more money for Scotland’s starved local authorities.

Patrick Grady Portrait Patrick Grady
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He is obviously passionate about Britain, and good luck to him, because he is not going to have that passion available to him for much longer once we are independent. Is he content with the idea that the Bill will gain Royal Assent without the legislative consent of the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly or indeed the Northern Ireland Assembly? Is not that the real power grab—the undermining of the Sewel convention? That is shaking devolution to the core. That is the power grab that is happening here. Is he really content with that?

Andrew Bowie Portrait Andrew Bowie
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

To be honest with the hon. Gentleman, I would be trying to convince his colleagues in Edinburgh that this is a very good Bill and they should give it legislative consent and see it sail through the Scottish Parliament. But they have refused to give legislative consent to Bills that have become law in the past, and I am sure they will do so again.

I return to my point about Scotland’s cash-strapped local authorities. In north-east Scotland—I see the hon. Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson) in his place—Aberdeen City Council and Aberdeenshire Council are two of the lowest funded local authorities in the country, despite contributing more in revenue to the SNP Scottish Government than almost any other local authority. The idea that the Scottish National party would vote to deny them more funds to spend on specific projects truly is a kick in the gut.

15:45
Richard Thomson Portrait Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the amount of money available to spend on frontline services in the Aberdeenshire Council area is only £11 below the Scottish average, which includes the high-spending island authorities? To help him with that, 11 is nearly twice six, which is double the number of chips that he had in his dinner the other night.

Andrew Bowie Portrait Andrew Bowie
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I will avoid commenting on the meagre amount of chips that you get in the House of Commons Dining Room. I was one of the loudest to complain about the state of my fish and chips. On the hon. Gentleman’s point, I cannot believe that a Member representing an Aberdeenshire seat is defending the fact that the Scottish Government give it one of the lowest amounts of funding for any local authority in the country. The people of Aberdeenshire will be listening to him, and I am sure they will explain to him their dissatisfaction with that comment.

I urge the hon. Gentleman to try explaining that to constituents next door in West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine, the people of Durris and Drumoak—a community divided due to Park bridge being closed, possibly never to reopen. [Interruption.] I hear the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) groaning. The mask is slipping from the Scottish National party. The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown) underlined that when he earlier described these bridge closures as “wee pet projects”. These are communities divided because the Scottish Government are not funding Aberdeenshire Council to the requisite level to fix those bridges and reconnect those communities. The fact is that, unless it is in Glasgow or the central belt, the Scottish Government just do not care.

Patricia Gibson Portrait Patricia Gibson
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I was groaning in despair because all the hon. Gentleman’s remarks deny one fundamental principle: that the people of Scotland are sovereign. The people of Scotland are represented by a democratic Parliament in Edinburgh, and there are clearly defined devolved areas that are the responsibility of that sovereign Parliament. This Bill denies that. Why can he not just be honest enough to say so?

Andrew Bowie Portrait Andrew Bowie
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The hon. Lady is powerful and passionate in making her case, but this Bill does nothing of the sort. This Bill reinforces devolution, with over 100 powers coming from Brussels to Scotland, and it is for the Scottish Government to determine how they are acted on and how the money going to Edinburgh is spent.

The fact is that the SNP has been found out. They do not like this Bill because they know that it will demonstrate the relevance, the strength and the spending power of the British Government to the people of Scotland, and that endangers their grand plan: the separation of our country. For that, really, is all the SNP cares about—not people, not jobs, not the health service, not Scottish Water, as we heard earlier, and not powers over minimum unit pricing of alcohol. Those are all a front—a distraction. They do not like this Bill, despite the fact that it will benefit Scotland, because it promotes and unites our United Kingdom. That is the policy of the SNP, and it is clearer today due to these amendments than at any time before. The SNP would rather that Scotland was poorer if it meant that the United Kingdom Government had less power. That is the truth of it; it is clear from these amendments.

I am delighted that the British Government are enshrining the internal market in statute. I am delighted that we are voting to protect jobs in Scotland and around the rest of the United Kingdom, and I am delighted that, once again, this place will be able to directly spend money that will benefit the lives of my constituents. I am delighted that we are binding our country together, with no threat to the NHS, no threat to the existing powers of the Scottish Parliament and no threat to devolution. I will take great joy in voting down these amendments tonight. I will be voting to strengthen the Union, enrich Scotland and protect jobs. The SNP will be doing the opposite.

Alun Cairns Portrait Alun Cairns
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It is a privilege to have the opportunity to contribute to this debate and to serve under your chairmanship, Ms McDonagh. It is also a pleasure to follow the excellent contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie), who underlined the position in relation to Scotland. Most of my comments will relate to Wales, but they will relate equally to each of the nations of the United Kingdom.

Clauses 46 and 47—part 6 of the Bill—are fundamental to the future of the United Kingdom, particularly as we leave the European Union and after one of the most challenging times in terms of public health and the economic difficulties ahead of us. This is a time when the nation needs to come together and when the might of the UK Government to support every part of the United Kingdom will be extremely important. So these clauses are excellent news for all nations of the UK.  They empower a UK Minister to support and contribute to the economic, social and cultural needs of every nation, whatever part of the country someone comes from. More importantly, at a time when our nation is at a greater risk of fragmentation, these provisions make the UK Government relevant to constituents in all nations. A UK Minister can at last respond to their calls if a devolved Administration choose to ignore their needs.

The devolved nations host some of the most deprived communities in the UK. West Wales and the Valleys has qualified for the highest levels of EU aid for 20 years, and gross value added there was about 70% of the UK average. I have long argued that a persistent wide wealth gap will create tensions in any nation, and since devolution the current legislation has prevented a UK Minister from acting in support of constituents and communities in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland in devolved policy areas, even in those areas where GVA is at the lowest levels.

Alan Brown Portrait Alan Brown
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I am not sure that the best argument is to talk about the poorer areas of the UK being in some of the devolved nations, as that is clearly, unfortunately, a Union dividend that the devolved Parliaments have inherited.

Alun Cairns Portrait Alun Cairns
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I will come on to explain in further detail specific cases as to why the UK Government need the power in these clauses to intervene to support those communities that I want to support; I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman does not seem to want the UK Government to have the capacity to step in.

The current arrangements are confusing and messy, and could easily end up in the courts. Out of respect for devolution, Whitehall has been reluctant to be as assertive in pursuing some policies as the political and economic situations require. Constituents do not understand these arrangements, and businesses are often frustrated by the complexity and the perceived lack of interest in the issues and challenges they face. I said on Second Reading that for someone who is unemployed and living in one of the poorest communities, in a run-down town or village, perhaps with poor qualification levels or few training opportunities, UK Government Ministers’ answer to any call for help is, as it stands, simply to point them to the Welsh Assembly or to a Welsh Government Minister. Someone living in one of those communities in those circumstances does not care where the help comes from. They want the Government to be able to offer hope and opportunity, to play a part in bringing about change and to be relevant to those challenges that those individuals and communities face by helping to fix them.

Chris Bryant Portrait Chris Bryant
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I completely agree that my constituents in the Rhondda, which is one of the poorer communities in Wales, in the UK and in the whole of the European Union, would not care less where the money came from if they were seeking support, be it for a new youth service, more police officers, a new health centre or anything else. But for that to be effective, it has to be co-ordinated with other local services. A Government could not suddenly decide to build something in the Rhondda without planning permission from the local authority and without other permissions from the Assembly. This is why some of us are sceptical that the Government need these powers or that they are really serious about them. The Coal Authority is an agency of the Westminster Government, not of the Welsh Government, yet we are still waiting for our £1.2 million. If he can tell me a reason why the Government cannot give us the £1.2 million now, I would be delighted to hear it.

Alun Cairns Portrait Alun Cairns
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I am happy to respond to the hon. Gentleman. In relation to the Coal Authority, he is aware—this highlights the point that I made about the complexity of the current legislation—that land reclamation is a devolved function. Therefore, the Coal Authority is an agency of the UK Government, but the legislative responsibility falls to the Welsh Government. That highlights the complexity of the situation and may well be—I do not know because I have not looked at it in close enough detail—one of the root causes of why that community faces such a challenge.

The hon. Gentleman also highlighted flooding as a challenge. Flooding is a devolved responsibility. Therefore, when he calls on Environment Ministers to support funding projects in his constituency, he knows full well that the powers allowed by the current legislative framework to directly support such projects do not exist. Therefore, those calls, all too often, will fall on Ministers who do not have the power to act in those circumstances.

Chris Bryant Portrait Chris Bryant
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I think I am agreeing with the right hon. Gentleman in some small measure, which is obviously hurtful for me. He is of course right that flooding in Wales is the responsibility of the Welsh Government. However, there comes a time, if we want to reinforce the Union, when the Westminster Government have to accept that there have been specific events that fall outside the normal Barnett formula—outside the normal envelope. That is why I have repeatedly asked—and the Prime Minister promised this at the Dispatch Box—that we will get the money for the floods that happened excessively in Wales, and particularly in Rhondda, rather than anywhere else in the UK earlier this year.

Alun Cairns Portrait Alun Cairns
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I think the hon. Gentleman and I are in a spirit of agreement. I will come on to further examples where the UK Government need to step in, but, as it stands, do not have the powers or the capacity—the legislative framework—to do so in order to help his constituents and mine when a challenge or crisis is of a scale that clearly requires the might and strength of the Union.

It is fair to say that some politicians have capitalised on the lack of powers held by the UK Government with which to step in and to act. It is often said to someone or a community in such a situation, or to a business in need of support, that the UK Government are refusing to act—in the full knowledge that the UK Government do not have the powers to step in and to act in order to alleviate that situation. I have long called for these powers, having been frustrated by the devolution settlement in being able to step in. I am delighted that the Government are taking this positive step to support all UK nations.

I have long argued that the future of any nation would come under pressure if a wide wealth gap continued to persist between its regions and nations. The Prime Minister’s levelling-up agenda is much more difficult to achieve without the powers that are included within these clauses. Some challenges and policy initiatives are beyond the scale and capacity of any devolved Administration. Let me highlight a specific example that follows on from a point made by the hon. Member for Rhondda. In March 2016, Tata steelworks across the country were at risk of closure or sell-off. There were reports that Tata’s Port Talbot plant was losing £1 million a day. Clearly, this was a crisis that needed support and action. But the then First Minister was the first to highlight that the problem was far too big for the Welsh Government and the UK Government had to step in and help. According to the current legislation, in its purest form, this was a devolved matter and the Welsh Government had already received the business support funding through the Barnett formula. Therefore, it could have been legitimate to argue, “I’m sorry but this is a devolved function and the Welsh Government need to be able to respond.”

Clearly, the reality was very different. This was an industry of strategic importance and significance to the United Kingdom. The plant was also intertwined with steel operations right across England and Scotland, so the actions of one Administration had an impact on the actions of the rest of the country. Of course the UK Government had a responsibility to play a part, but their capacity to act in support in a wide-ranging way was limited. The Industrial Development Act 1982 offered an option, but it is highly restrictive and did not give the Minister the freedom in which to develop a cohesive policy in the way that the Minister would want to do.



Similarly, if the Port Talbot plant had closed, there would have been a need to reclaim the site, regenerate the community and develop a package on a much wider scale. There are other examples that I can highlight.

16:00
Gerald Jones Portrait Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab)
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The right hon. Gentleman talks about levelling up and areas where the UK Government have competence, but can I ask him for his comments on the shared prosperity fund? We have waited since 2018 for a consultation on it, and for much of that time he was Secretary of State and in a position to do something about it. Two years on, we are still waiting for clarity on how that money will be spent to benefit Wales.

Alun Cairns Portrait Alun Cairns
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The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point: we need to bring forward much more detailed proposals about how the shared prosperity fund will work. I hope—this is a call to the Minister—that these clauses will change the nature of the discussion, because they will enable the UK Government to play a more prominent part in how the shared prosperity fund develops. That is not the Government’s position yet, as I understand it, but certainly I hope it will be, and I will be calling for that.

The devolved Administrations receive their funding through the Barnett formula, but that delivers a capacity limitation to the interventions that they can make. Although the Welsh Government receive £120 for every £100 spent in England, which is a very fair settlement as a result of the relative poverty that many of us highlight regularly, that broadly equates to about 5% or 6% of spending in devolved areas according to the population. As a consequence of that relatively small sum of money, large infrastructure projects are much more difficult to deliver. They demand such capital sums that they are difficult to justify in any one community. The nature of devolution has caused resources to be spread far more thinly, and they do not have the impact that they could have in any one area.

Simon Baynes Portrait Simon Baynes (Clwyd South) (Con)
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I would like to pick up that point. As an MP for the border constituency of Clwyd South, I know that the importance of infrastructure projects is significant, but they are extremely difficult to implement as things stand. This Bill will enable the financial assistance that will facilitate those projects, which are vital for improving the wellbeing and the lives of people in Wales.

Alun Cairns Portrait Alun Cairns
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My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and he highlights, at a constituency level, the challenges because of the nature of the limitations of their funding the Welsh Government or any devolved Administration in any part of the UK face in having the greatest impact on constituencies. The might of the UK Government can support those large-scale projects.

The last major infrastructure project in Wales was in 1987, when the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation was formed. There has not been a major infrastructure project since then. That demonstrates that the nature of devolution has led to money being spread much more thinly across all communities. There is a good argument for that, but it removes the ability to have an impact in one specific community.

Stephen Crabb Portrait Stephen Crabb
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My right hon. Friend is making an important point. He will remember the original devolution campaign in the late ’90s in Wales. One of the key arguments for creating a devolved body was that it would make it easier to invest in major infrastructure projects. That was an advert for devolution. Does he agree that the fact that the Welsh Government have failed spectacularly to deliver infrastructure projects over the past 20 years is a very poor advert for devolution?

Alun Cairns Portrait Alun Cairns
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My right hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I have a more practical, current example, relating to my constituency.

When attracting investment, the added complexity of dealing with two Administrations for very large projects detracts from the ease of landing those deals. Let me highlight an example. I have long had the plan and hope to develop what I call battery valley in Wales, akin to silicon valley in the US. I believe that Wales has the capacity to develop expertise in the manufacturing and storage of batteries for electric vehicles as we move from the internal combustion engine. I have had the privilege of travelling to manufacturers and meeting investors around the world to encourage them to consider Wales for that purpose. It is great news that Britishvolt is looking at making such an investment in my constituency. That investment could be well in excess of £1 billion. It could be between £1 billion and £2 billion. Naturally, it will expect some sort of Government support to invest in Wales and specifically—hopefully—in my constituency.

An example of the sort of incentives that the German federal Government have offered for a similar investment to be made in Germany is close to €2 billion. The Welsh Government cannot compete with that sort of scale of spend, but clearly the UK Government have a part to play and can seek to jump-start the industry by making large-scale sums of money available that the Barnett formula could never deal with. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb) highlighted, the clauses in the Bill fill a major hole in the current devolution settlement in terms of attracting major investment and major infrastructure projects.

The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Gerald Jones) highlighted briefly the challenges around the shared prosperity fund. Nations and regions across the UK have long been frustrated by the European aid programmes. West Wales and the valleys has seen spend approach £5 billion since the year 2000. Owing to the complexity of the European Union arrangements, I certainly do not think we have had the best value from that. We can look to the Welsh Assembly’s Public Accounts Committee, business groups statements and communities that have been frustrated by it, and we can all point to specific projects in areas across Wales that have not been what the community really wanted or needed, but that just happened to fit the rules that the European Union set.

Finally, I highlight that we are not a federal country. We are a Union of nations, but even in the most federal of constitutions, the central administration has the power to act and to support. It is absolutely right that the United Kingdom Government have the power to act in support of every part of every constituency wherever you are in this kingdom.

Richard Thomson Portrait Richard Thomson
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I rise to support my party’s amendments because I firmly believe that seeking the consent of devolved Ministers represents the absolute bare minimum to respect the devolution settlement in the provisions before us.

Although I am not new to politics, I am comparatively new to this place, and my views on politics and self-government for Scotland were forged in the 1980s and the devolution debates of the early 1990s, well before Scotland had a Parliament of its own. When I speak to young Scots of voting age now, very few of them have any memory of there not being a Scottish Government and Parliament. The idea that there ever would not have been seems alien and absurd—almost as absurd to them as it seemed to me that those institutions did not exist back in the 1990s.

Although I was supportive of devolution at that time, the arguments that I and others made at that time in favour of independence referred to devolution and its potential weaknesses. Those arguments did not find favour at that time. They were that devolution was going to create a subordinate Parliament to Westminster, that without a written constitution, its powers and status could not be guaranteed, and that power devolved is power retained—all those arguments, whatever their essential truth and accuracy, were lost in the assurances given at the time about permanence and respect.

The fact that those arguments about permanence and respect were made by politicians of the standing and character of Donald Dewar no doubt helped enormously. For the past 21 years, by and large, that is exactly how it has been. Disputes over money and policy aside, both Parliaments have co-existed. As Holyrood’s stature has grown, and Ministers have begun to act with the stature befitting a Government, rather than a regional subordinate Executive, so too has Scottish confidence grown. I think it is that, rather than any concern about the integrity of the UK internal market, that seems to be driving a large part of the motivation behind this part of the Bill.

A number of speakers have talked about the current settlement. One thing that the current settlement does give is clarity: if a matter is not explicitly reserved under schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, it is devolved. Unionists who proclaim the parliamentary sovereignty of this place should know that that is because this place legislated for that. Throughout devolution, the Sewel convention has operated, meaning that this Parliament will not ordinarily legislate in areas of devolved competence without the express consent of the Parliaments. It is precisely to protect that principle of consent that my party is putting forward this amendment today, to ensure that under that principle of consent, no action in respect of these powers will be taken without the agreement of the relevant devolved Ministers.

Turning to clauses 46 and 47, I think of the ancient proverb that one should beware Greeks bearing gifts. Scots, through long years of experience, have come to be suspicious of Westminster politicians pledging similar gifts. Scottish voters have long been wary of that. The proposed powers are so wide-ranging, covering promoting economic development, infrastructure, cultural activity, sport, education and training activities, that their motivation is quite clear. Indeed, the right hon. Member for Wokingham (John Redwood), who was in earlier, gave the game away: this is nothing more sophisticated than sticking a great big flag on the side of something and saying, “We paid for that.”

There is no money element to these proposals, but I have to say that if they actually represented additional money, we might be having quite a different debate. However, I know from bitter experience that all that will happen is that the Scottish Government’s funding will inevitably find itself top-sliced—a bit like the Scotland Office having to pay for press officers or private polling—and it will be presented as the return of Scottish taxpayers’ money and UK borrowing, and as being somehow down to the largesse of the Treasury and we should all be grateful for it.

The ability that these measures will give UK Ministers of the Crown to bypass devolution and Scottish Ministers —who are also Ministers of the Crown—and to bypass the democratically elected Government of Scotland to make policy and allocate resources in devolved areas, whether that is in line with the priorities of those elected to lead in those devolved areas or not, represents the biggest single attack on devolution imaginable, short of the abolition of those institutions themselves.

Let us take infrastructure as an example. I find it hard to understand the argument that the Bill could improve that situation. Scottish Governments of all political stripes across many years—decades, indeed—have a record of ambitious investment, whether delivered or planned for the future. The magnificent Queensferry crossing was mentioned earlier. We also have the Aberdeen to Inverness rail improvements, involving more than £200 million of improvements that benefit my constituents to a remarkable extent. We have the central belt rail electrification. We have the Aberdeen bypass, and the Balmedie to Tipperty dualling. We also have the completion, after 50 years, of the central Scotland motorway network.

Christine Jardine Portrait Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
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The hon. Gentleman has just given us a list of projects that he is putting great big flags on the side of and claiming credit for, when actually the Aberdeen bypass was signed off by the previous Administration. It had been planned for a very long time.

Richard Thomson Portrait Richard Thomson
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I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that intervention, because it might have been signed off, but it was signed off in such a way that mired it in protracted legal disputes for years—[Interruption.] I am glad she finds that funny, but that was what delayed it more than anything else. It is only thanks to the diligence of the present Scottish Government that it got through at all. The dualling of the A96 and the A9, the Borders railway and the future rail decarbonisation are all major big-ticket investments that are happening under the current arrangements, which do not require any tinkering with the devolution settlement.

Alan Brown Portrait Alan Brown
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For me, these infrastructure projects say everything about the Union dividend. It is a fact that it has taken an SNP Government to complete the M8 motorway between Glasgow and Edinburgh, the two biggest cities in Scotland. Under the Westminster Government, we did not even have a motorway running east to west in Scotland, which was a disgrace. Does my hon. Friend agree that another problem with Scotland delivering infrastructure is the fiscal constraints on capital borrowing? Westminster will not allow us to borrow enough money to invest in the infrastructure we need.

Richard Thomson Portrait Richard Thomson
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My hon. Friend makes an excellent point, and I intend to deal with some of those points later in my speech.

The hon. Member for Moray (Douglas Ross) said on Second Reading:

“I want to see our two Governments working together as they do on city and growth deals the length and breadth of the country.”—[Official Report, 14 September 2020; Vol. 680, c. 89.]

I absolutely agree with him: for as long as we have two Governments for Scotland, they should indeed work together.

However, citing that argument in support of the Bill is, I believe, fundamentally flawed because these deals already work and there is no need for a further encroachment on the devolution settlement to make similar deals work better.

00:00
Prior to being elected as the Member for Gordon, I spent some time as the co-leader of Aberdeenshire Council, and I was a signatory on behalf of the local authority to the Aberdeen city region deal. Within that deal, total investment by the Scottish Government is currently out- funding the commitment of the Westminster Government by a factor of 3:1. Under existing arrangements, the UK Government could—if they had the will, the means and the determination to do so—match that funding straightaway. There is nothing stopping them.
The UK Government could put in place the resources to fund a sector deal for the North sea. They could, if they wanted to, help local government defer—or, better still, write off—the interest on the Public Works Loan Board loans of local authorities right across Scotland, as my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South (Stephen Flynn) has called for. They could even, if they wanted to work in a genuine spirit of partnership, expand the financial powers of the Scottish Parliament to embrace borrowing powers.
The hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie) and I had an exchange earlier when he accepted my intervention, for which I thank him. May I recommend to him, for his bedtime reading tonight, the “Scottish Local Government Finance Statistics 2018-19”, particularly chart 2.2, where his eyes will feast on the general fund net revenue expenditure figures for Scotland? He will see that the Scottish average spend is £1,981 per head, and in Aberdeenshire it is £1,970, which is just immediately below the average. I commend it to him. Many criticisms can indeed be made of the funding formula. I will be glad to share that diagram with the press when his press release goes out later, and I will be glad to add some factual context to it.
Andrew Bowie Portrait Andrew Bowie
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The hon. Gentleman has been very generous with his time, and I am listening intently to what he is saying. I do take the point about the fiscal framework and local authorities, and I get his point regarding the per head spend, but that figure amounts to £50 million less that they can be spending on infrastructure projects and roads. I heard what he said about the growth deals, the sector deal and investing, and I would back him and join him in all those campaigns, as he fully knows—perhaps except for borrowing powers for the Scottish Government—but I stress that I hope that he would join me in my campaign to see Aberdeenshire Council being treated fairly and, given the revenue it has delivered to the Scottish Government, getting a fair share to spend in the north-east of Scotland.

Richard Thomson Portrait Richard Thomson
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As I was about to say—the hon. Member was doing so well until he said he would not back the borrowing powers, which is very disappointing because it could change so much—legitimate criticisms can be made of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities funding formula. I voiced them myself when I was the council co-leader in Aberdeenshire. However, the Bill will not resolve or change that. I hope that the hon. Member would agree that if we are to make changes to that, they should be based on factual analysis and evidence, rather than just recycling old tropes.

Patricia Gibson Portrait Patricia Gibson
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My hon. Friend has set out quite a considerable list of things the UK Government could do now to invest in infrastructure projects across Scotland. Does he share the concern my constituents will have about the UK Government’s willingness up to this point to make such investment? For example, the Tories first promised the Dalry bypass in North Ayrshire in my constituency in 1938, but it took an SNP Scottish Government to deliver it.

Richard Thomson Portrait Richard Thomson
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My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. As I say, if this were backed up by additional resources, we might be having some different discussions, but it still would not make the case for this encroachment on devolved powers.

Andrew Bowie Portrait Andrew Bowie
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I am listening very intently to what the hon. Gentleman is saying, as I did to what the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) said, and I actually agree with a lot of what he has said, yet he has made no argument for not giving the Government more powers to spend. Yes, there are areas where the UK Government could be and, in my opinion, should be spending in Scotland, but there is no reason to vote against giving them more powers to do just that and support our local authorities to develop and deliver infrastructure projects in Scotland.

Richard Thomson Portrait Richard Thomson
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On the contrary, there is every reason to do that precisely because I have been making the argument—I do not know how carefully the hon. Member has been listening to it—that there is absolutely no need to encroach on the existing devolved settlement to deliver all the things that we are being told need to happen.

Frankly, this is nothing more than an arrogation, a usurpation and a trespassing on the principle that the decisions taken exclusively for Scotland should be made in Scotland by those who are directly accountable to the people of Scotland, taking us back to the bad old days prior to devolution, when Ministers of a party elected on a minority of the votes and seats could nevertheless rule the country without going to the trouble of winning an election beforehand.

Devolution was once described as

“the settled will of the Scottish people”—

as a way to accommodate legitimate desires for growing democratic aspirations within an old Union. That was certainly how it looked until 1997, and it is how it has looked for many in Scotland until recently, but the Union that Scots were invited to vote for in 2014—the balance that existed between Parliaments, Governments and institutions in London, Brussels and Edinburgh—has already gone. The failure to back an amendment of this nature shows that the very principles of autonomy, consent and respect that lay at the heart of the devolution settlement are also about to go.

People who voted in 2014 to be part of two Unions—the European Union and the British Union—can now see that they can only possibly be part of one. If this amendment falls and is not taken on board by the Government, it will show that the entire basis of devolution—that decisions should be taken for the people of the devolved nations and regions by those elected by and directly accountable to them—is being similarly trashed.

If the UK Government wish to depart from the EU and to deploy their majority to crush these principles, there is very little that I or my colleagues can do in practice to stop that, although there is plenty that can be done outside this place. For all that I used to make the argument that one day, the Scottish Parliament might have its wings clipped by a politically motivated activist Conservative Government, I never imagined for one day that a Government would come along so stuffed full of John Bull as to make it actually happen.

The polls across Scotland—I am sure that private polls in the Scotland Office confirm what the public polls say—show that increasing numbers of Scots know and understand that to re-attain EU membership, independence is required. If the Bill is passed unamended, it will become equally clear that independence is also required to preserve Scotland’s hard-won democracy and autonomy. It will give me no satisfaction to be proven right, from back in 1997, about where devolution might end up. There is if not yet a settled will, very definitely a settling will in Scotland that that is the case. If yet more of the Scottish people reach the conclusion that independence is now the only way to protect Scotland’s Parliament, this Government, having acted in haste, will be left to repent at leisure and in not very splendid isolation.

Marco Longhi Portrait Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con)
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I rise to speak with enthusiastic support for clauses 46 and 47, and I start by saying that long before the advent of the EU, the UK internal market functioned seamlessly for centuries. This Bill and the clauses we are debating ensure that every part of the United Kingdom—England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland—will benefit. The Government committed to delivering the UK-wide shared prosperity fund, replacing the awful bureaucratic EU structures. Clauses 46 and 47 are specifically designed to ensure that no one, regardless of home nation, misses out on this fund.

Of course, if we cast our minds back to 2016, one of the leave arguments made during the referendum was that not only is the UK a net contributor to the EU, but that the reduced funds that it receives back are prescribed explicitly by the EU in terms of how much and where in the UK these funds are spent. We were being told where to spend our own money, and less of it. Brexit and the Bill rectify that utterly bizarre arrangement and allow a sovereign UK Government, working together with their devolved Administrations, to set out how and where these funds are spent, which is precisely as it should be. We voted to take back control, and control we are taking back.

Under clauses 46 and 47, our UK Government could make payments, including grants, loans and guarantees, to any person in the United Kingdom for the purpose of promoting economic development in the UK, providing infrastructure in the UK, supporting cultural and sporting activities, projects and events, and supporting international and domestic educational and training activities and exchanges.

We have very recently seen the benefit of taking a UK-wide approach to funding issues such as covid-19 and the effects of Storms Ciara and Dennis, and the Bill supports exactly that type of approach.

Chris Bryant Portrait Chris Bryant
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The hon. Gentleman has just said that Storm Dennis should be recognised as a UK responsibility, yet we have not had a single penny in Wales from the Westminster Government in relation to Storm Dennis. He also referred to the shared prosperity fund. That does not exist. The Government have not yet even produced a consultation document on it. We do not know what it will look like at all. We would look on these clauses with far more interested eyes if we had all that in the Bill.

Marco Longhi Portrait Marco Longhi
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I thank the hon. Gentleman for the intervention, but I refer him back to answers previously given by more learned colleagues than myself on those specific points.

I hold Scotland close in my heart, with many fond memories of holidays—and how could I not mention the excellent whisky, as I think about Laphroaig and the Macallan still in my cupboard? It is a worldwide export from the United Kingdom. We are our own biggest trading market between whole nations, and I want to see Scottish businesses and businesses in my constituency of Dudley North continue to have unfettered access to each other’s markets—something that simply would not happen, were the SNP to have their own agenda, with their separatist approach.

So far, all we have seen and heard from Opposition SNP Members is this damaging rhetoric that champions separation instead of growth and jobs through trading in our Union. They criticise this Government and, by default, ordinary British people who voted to leave for, as was stated yesterday, unpicking 60 years of European jurisprudence; yet they want to unpick over 300 years of a Union much closer to home that has proven to work for everybody. For all their claims to be defending the Scottish people and devolved powers in Scotland, it seems utterly bizarre and ironic that the SNP would want to return those powers back to Brussels, because not only will sovereignty be lost, but as the former SNP Minister Alex Neil admitted, there would have to be a customs barrier between Scotland and the UK, and no doubt a separate currency. I cannot for the life of me understand why SNP Members would actively advocate to suppress their whole nation and damage their local economy.

The Bill strengthens the Union, so it is no surprise they seek to oppose it, but they should all be held to account for not wanting to stand up for all the British jobs that the Bill would support and protect.

Andrew Lewer Portrait Andrew Lewer (Northampton South) (Con)
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As Martin Howe QC outlined in a recent article, a single unified internal market is a key block in the constitutional foundations of the United Kingdom. When the transition period ends on 31 December, we shall be finally free to leave the provisions of the EU. This country needs a legislative framework that protects the integrity of the UK and provides continuity, certainty and prosperity to all four parts of the country.

Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
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The title to the Bill is to do with the issue of Northern Ireland’s status. The Bill ensures that Northern Ireland becomes an integral part of the United Kingdom, which is separate from the withdrawal agreement, which was agreed in January 2020. I know that the hon. Gentleman agrees that that is critical and very important so that we have unfettered access and so that our businesses will not be disadvantaged in any way. Does he agree that it is all about the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as one entity rather than four regions?

Andrew Lewer Portrait Andrew Lewer
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Yes, I do. Four as one is the way forward.

At a time when thousands of businesses around the UK are struggling to recover from the impact of coronavirus, no Member of this House should be in any doubt that we need to have in place a system that facilitates the free flow of goods and services around all parts of the UK. That gives us the opportunity, as these amendments touch on, to invest properly in infrastructure and projects that encourage development in all parts of the UK.

16:30
In 2016 the United Kingdom voted to regain its sovereignty and independence from the EU, which is a huge undertaking, legally complex vis-à-vis national, devolved and, yes, international law, and in that context this Bill is a key part of the Government delivering on that mandate. Therefore, while valid commentary on this Bill has been made—magnified by initial Front-Bench statements that provoked a range of reactions from alarm to concern—the core purpose of this Bill should not be forgotten, and its importance in protecting the UK’s constitutional make-up, which is our particular focus today, should not be lost in the frenzy, or indeed volume, of debate.
With regard to these amendments, my fear is that some Opposition Members are seeking to exploit genuine concerns about the Bill for their own agendas. Without the provisions of this Bill, the reality is that the increased divergence of our four nations is a real threat. As I outlined at the start, this Bill in its entirety is aimed at preventing any fundamental undercutting of the Union, which would damage business, create uncertainty and dampen prosperity. Indeed, these clauses seek to level up the entire UK.
I find perplexing, therefore, the protestations from nationalist parties regarding the role of Westminster. The Bill’s intentions and restrictions on their powers are extremely similar to the current situation they find themselves in under EU law. Control over these issues was always delegated to Brussels by virtue of our membership of the European Union.
One of my core beliefs through my life, and even more so as a Conservative and Unionist Member of Parliament, is that our four nations are stronger together. I did something practical about that, beyond speechifying, in that once-in-a-generation referendum in 2014. Our histories are entwined, and this Bill seeks to further protect our Union and the place of each devolved nation within the United Kingdom.
Moving on from that point, the Bill ultimately creates a safety net to correct some potentially harmful aspects of the Northern Ireland protocol in the event that there is no deal. The danger is that at present the EU has the ability and potential to exert significant economic damage on Northern Ireland and pressure on our Union if a deal is not achieved and actions are not taken in good faith, and clearly that must be avoided. The reserve power that this Bill proposes will give Ministers the ability—and I stress that this is the ability—to protect Northern Ireland in the face of any acts of bad faith; that will allow the UK to protect itself from any abusive exercise of treaty powers by the EU.
As a former MEP, I will assert that some elements of the EU hierarchy are so bruised by the UK voting to leave that it is wise not to entirely assume that wholly rational reactions will be forthcoming. Of course we hope these powers will not be needed, but it would be irresponsible of the Government, and indeed Members across the House, not to support the provision of these powers as a last resort.
Christine Jardine Portrait Christine Jardine
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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms McDonagh, but part of me feels I should begin with an apology, indeed to everyone in the House, because I wonder if, like me, they are beginning to feel a little as if we are in a remake of “Groundhog Day” with this Bill. Yesterday, we heard that in establishing a body within the Competitions and Markets Authority the Government did not respect the devolution settlement. Here we are today looking at the replacement for European structural funding, if we ever get to see what the suggestion is, and we are debating the fact that it does not respect the devolution settlement. I am at a loss as to whether the Government are somehow doing this deliberately; surely they cannot be completely unaware of the issue. I know they are certainly aware of devolution because, like my colleagues on the SNP Benches, they did not support devolution 20 years ago, whereas my colleagues on the Labour Benches did support devolution, along with us Liberal Democrats. It is sad that here we are, 20 years later, debating devolution all over again. I ask the Government, as I did yesterday, to recognise that this constant lack of respect for the devolution settlement simply promotes the nationalist narrative.

In leaving the European Union, we lost all the regulations and standards on food production and manufacture that applied across the continent. I recognise and am in absolutely no doubt about the need to replace them across the UK. For some time, I was prepared to listen to the Government’s arguments when they were negotiating with the devolved nations—in good faith on both parts, I believe—in respect of the frameworks and powers to replace them. However, the wheels appeared to fall off that particular wagon when the occupancy of No. 10 changed.

I have to join Government Members in laughing when SNP Members point a metaphorical accusatory finger and yell, “Centralisation.” Those of us who actually live in Scotland and have to endure the SNP Government’s incompetence know that when it comes to keeping control of the purse strings centrally, they are the control freaks par excellence of British Governments—

Patricia Gibson Portrait Patricia Gibson
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And still you cannae win an election.

Christine Jardine Portrait Christine Jardine
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I remind the hon. Member that I am here because I won an election.

Patricia Gibson Portrait Patricia Gibson
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I’m talking about your party.

Christine Jardine Portrait Christine Jardine
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If I were to be told now that the aim of the Bill was to ensure that any money going to Scotland was to be spent in the manner for which it was originally intended, I would take that into account, because we all know that once cash disappears into the coffers of the SNP Government at Holyrood and is in SNP control, there is no guarantee that it will be spent where it was originally intended. That is my concern with stopping the UK Government spending money in Scotland.

I am amused by the SNP stance. For SNP Members to give us a whole list of things on which the UK Government should spend money in Scotland—a list that, like the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie), I support very much of—but then to say that they do not want the UK Government to spend money in Scotland strikes me as absolutely ridiculous. Where, indeed, would people who live in Shetland and the Shetland Islands Council be if the UK Government had not had money to spend in Shetland when people there found themselves in need of financial support? To say that the UK Government cannot spend money on UK citizens, which is what we are—and many of us are proud of that—is utterly nonsensical.

Alison Thewliss Portrait Alison Thewliss
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The hon. Lady misrepresents our position. Nobody is saying that we do not want the UK Government to spend money—we do not believe they are going to spend money, but that is a different issue. We should have the frameworks in place to make sure that it is done in consultation and collaboration with the democratically elected Government and Parliament in Scotland. That is not what the Bill says.

Christine Jardine Portrait Christine Jardine
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Yes, I agree that there should be collaboration—that is where the Bill does not respect the devolution settlement—but the curious thing about the hon. Lady’s comment is that I seem to remember it was an SNP Government who did away with the body that allowed councils in Scotland to apply for transport infrastructure funding. If councils were also to be denied the ability to apply to the UK Government for transport infrastructure funding without going through the Scottish Government, what guarantee is there that they would get it? We need in Scotland the ability for the UK Government to spend money on projects—to use the coffers of the UK Government.

Patricia Gibson Portrait Patricia Gibson
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Will the hon. Lady give way?

Christine Jardine Portrait Christine Jardine
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No, I will not, if the hon. Lady does not mind.

We need that option, rather than just having the list given by the hon. Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson) of projects with great big saltires on them and proclaiming that they were done by the Scottish Government. The Scottish Government are not the only funding body in Scotland.

Let me return to the point. In many ways the Bill does not respect the devolution settlement, and that is a great disappointment to many of us. I appeal to the Government, in going forward with this Bill, to look seriously at whether they can take on board amendments that would improve the collaboration, involve Ministers of the devolved nations, involve the elected representatives of parts of the country and ensure that we respect the devolution settlement, and, moreover, that we protect it and perhaps enhance it. That might prevent us from having to have this debate again and again and again in this place.

Robert Largan Portrait Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con)
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It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine), who gave a thoughtful and forceful speech. There have been some excellent speeches so far. I particularly want to mention my right hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) and my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie), who made excellent speeches both in favour of the Union and in making the case against some of the amendments in front of us today.

On Monday evening, I voted to give this Bill its Second Reading, because I support the broad aims of the legislation. I am very grateful for the opportunity to speak on the detail of the Bill, particularly on clause 46. However, I do have reservations about certain aspects of the Bill, which I shall turn to in a moment.

The Bill is necessary to safeguard the Union and ensure that businesses in all parts of the UK can continue to trade seamlessly across the United Kingdom. It is important that Derbyshire hill farmers can continue to sell lamb to Scotland, that supermarkets in Wales can continue to stock sweets made in New Mills, and that construction sites across the country can continue to use the high-quality limestone quarried out of the hills around Buxton and Hope.

The UK’s internal market is centuries old and a cornerstone of our Union and our economic success. The Bill helps to provide certainty to businesses that, when we leave the transition period, the internal market will be safe and our high food hygiene and animal welfare standards will be maintained.

Clause 46 is a vital part of the Bill that will give the Government the power to spend money in areas previously administered by the European Union, such as infrastructure, economic development, culture and sport, as well as aspects of education, training and international exchanges. This is essential to allow the Government to properly serve all parts of our United Kingdom. I have previously talked in this place at length about how successive Governments of all parties have failed to properly invest in certain parts of the country, including, of course, in the High Peak over the past few decades. The clauses in front of us are part of remedying those past mistakes.

As I have said, it was for those reasons that I absolutely supported the core thrust of this Bill and voted for it on Second Reading, but I am uncomfortable with an element of the Bill, which is why the Committee stage is so important. I firmly believe that we must fully deliver on the 2016 referendum result and that we must take a hard-headed approach to negotiations with the EU to secure the best possible long-term trade deal. Brinksmanship and preparing for the worst are, of course, a key part of that. In my view, it is also essential that we secure that trade deal and deliver on our promises in a way that is in line with our values. Any breach of our commitments must be considered only as an absolute last resort, and even then only after considered debate, scrutiny and oversight.

As this Bill progresses through the House, I hope that the Government will listen carefully and take the opportunity to improve on it. I am grateful to the Lord Chancellor, the Attorney General, No. 10’s trade negotiating team, and the Minister herself, who is now in her place, for meeting me and others to discuss our concerns. I hope that we can make those improvements.

We have a tendency in this place to spend far too much of our time speculating on what might have been and on events that are outside of our control. Perhaps that is because it is more comforting than confronting the hard choices in front of us, but that is exactly what me must do to deliver on our promises and safeguard the future of the United Kingdom.

Tommy Sheppard Portrait Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)
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I must say that it is astonishing and perhaps a little bit frightening that here we are, elected representatives in a democratic country, meeting to give serious consideration to proposals that threaten the peace in Northern Ireland, pave the way for the breaking of international treaties and represent the undermining of the devolution settlement, which has been a fundamental part of our constitution for more than two decades. It speaks volumes, I think, about the chaos and confusion that shroud the current Government that these proposals have even seen the light of day.

My concern is with what these proposals represent for the devolution settlement. I have to caution Government Members, because there have been a few gripes that, “Oh, the SNP will always oppose this.” This is not a matter of the Scottish National party taking umbrage at these proposals. When the Government make them, they offend and affront not me or my colleagues but the ordinary people of Scotland, who, on 11 September 1997, voted by a majority of 74.3% to say yes to a Scottish Parliament and yes to devolution. If that vote took place today, those figures would be higher still, with up to 90% agreeing with either partial or complete autonomy of decision making in Scotland. Those are the people that the Government need to justify these proposals to.

16:45
At lunchtime, I was asked a hypothetical question by a BBC journalist. She said, “Would it be possible for the United Kingdom, after Brexit, to have a free trade agreement if different rules applied in different parts of the United Kingdom?” The answer is: of course it would be possible. In fact, it should be welcomed, because diversity and differentiation is integral to the whole concept of devolution. All it would require is a simple caveat to any trade agreement that says, “Where a particular transaction refers to a matter that is within a devolved competence of the national Governments, their consent needs to be obtained for that proposal”—a simple, technical matter.
That is why I believe that the Bill is not about an internal market or anything to do with trade. The political objective behind these proposals is to begin to reverse the devolution settlement and the process of devolving decision making to Scotland and other parts of the United Kingdom. That is what is going on.
My evidence for that is quite simple: it is to point to the last 20 years. We have had devolution—we have had different decisions being made, and we have had variations and differences in different parts of the United Kingdom—yet it has not stopped trade. We are party to a whole range of trade agreements at the moment. We are party to them through our membership of the European Union, but, as Government Members never tire of telling us, the regulations and bureaucracy surrounding the European Union and its protection of the single market are really onerous and we have to be away from them. If it has been possible, under the European single market regulations, for the Scottish Parliament to make decisions about minimum pricing of alcohol, smoking bans, animal welfare standards or anything else that relates to what is sold in our shops, why on earth would it not be possible for that to continue after we leave?
That is what is at stake here—and that, by the way, is why we refer to a power grab. It is not that a particular power is being taken away, but the exercise of that power is being constrained and enforced by a set of regulations that have never been there before and have never been felt to be necessary before.
Clause 46, which we are talking about today, is a case in point. Some Government Members have suggested—of course, it is the whole Government narrative to suggest this—that this is simply a matter of a replacement for the structural funds of the European Union and how resources are distributed across this island. Well, before we do that, let us consider how things are done at the moment and how they have been done heretofore. Of course the budget for the structural funds is set in Brussels, but once the budget is determined, the manner in which those funds are spent—the priorities for funding and infrastructure, the individual projects, and how much is spent on each—is determined in Scotland. There has never been an instance of Brussels trying to overturn a decision or challenge those priorities.
Alun Cairns Portrait Alun Cairns
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I am listening closely to the hon. Gentleman’s argument. How would he reconcile his position with, say, a Scottish local authority seeking additional support from the UK Government? Under the Bill, the UK Government could respond to the democratic call from that community.

Tommy Sheppard Portrait Tommy Sheppard
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I was going on to make this point, which answers that question. Rather than have the funds taken to London and have London set the priorities for all parts of the United Kingdom and then disburse funds to a local authority or to anyone else in Scotland if it fits London’s particular priorities, why not take the money, divide it up and devolve it in the terms of increased capital allocations to the national Governments within the United Kingdom? Why not simply do that? Scottish local authorities would then be able to approach the Scottish Government, who would have more money and more capacity to build the bridges that have been referred to previously and to deliver on the priorities of the people who live in Scotland. If we do not do that, what is being said is that the determination made in Whitehall as to what the priorities should be is more important and takes precedence over the determination made in Scotland. That, my friends, is a power grab.

Alun Cairns Portrait Alun Cairns
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I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way again. If someone is living in a deprived constituency that needs additional help and support and the UK Government feel that they can respond, does he think that the person in that community cares whether the money comes directly from the UK Government or from the Scottish Government, bearing in mind that democratic processes would have set the priorities at the most local level?

Tommy Sheppard Portrait Tommy Sheppard
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I think that people living in Scotland care that the priorities for spending on infrastructure in Scotland are determined by them and the representatives they elect, rather than by a Conservative majority Government who do not have a mandate in Scotland. That whole point considers that we even agree with the narrative that the proposals in clause 46 are simply a matter of replacing the allocation of structural funds, and that they are all about the shared prosperity fund. Actually, there is nothing in this Bill that qualifies it in that regard.

In fact, the Bill gives this place the power to take funding decisions about all manner of policy areas of Scotland, most of which are already within the devolution settlement and are the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament. What, therefore, is being proposed, as far as I know, is that this place would be able to determine the spending priorities on health, education, transport and a whole range of other matters, and it would have the ability, through these provisions, to overturn any decisions of the Scottish Parliament. That is also a power grab.

I have wondered why these sledgehammers are being assembled to crack these very small nuts. Why is it that the devolution settlement is such an irritant to the current Government that they see the need to have this legislation and to roll back on the provisions of devolution? I have searched myself, and I cannot find a reasonable explanation save for one: the demise of the Conservative party in Scotland. A once great party is now reduced to a rump of six Members of Parliament, only one of whom has been in this Chamber for more than three years. That lack of experience and that lack of representation of the Conservative tradition in Scottish civic society in this place and in this Government are truly creating problems for them, but the situation is also creating big problems for the people of Scotland, because it is leading to ill-judged and ill-considered proposals, and I believe that the Government will rue the day that they were presented.

Let me finish by saying that there will be a reckoning to all of this. I know that the Government will railroad this through. They have an 80-seat majority, and the lobby fodder will go through and support it—most of them unaware of the nuances of the devolution settlement and perhaps not even caring about it. However, there will be consequences to that action, and the consequence will be that the people of Scotland will see clearly the contempt in which they are held by this Government. They will take umbrage at those decisions, and they will get their chance to express their view in a few short months’ time.

I end by referring to the comments from the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) at the very beginning of this debate. They were quite interesting, because he and others on the Labour Benches have made the point that they do not support Scottish independence or the SNP, but here is the conundrum that the House now has to face: it seems the intentions of the Government are such that the only way to protect the limited devolution and political capacity we have had in Scotland for 23 years is to take for ourselves the political power that comes with being an independent country and make sure that those powers are retained. That is why many people who used to be represented on the Labour Benches are now realising that the only way to defend the gains made through history is to have complete devolution, complete autonomy, become an independent nation state and secure the political capacity to make our own decisions, so that they will never again be subject to the whims and aspirations of Tories in No. 10.

Chris Clarkson Portrait Chris Clarkson (Heywood and Middleton) (Con)
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It is a pleasure to serve under you chairmanship, Ms McDonagh.

This is one of the more difficult speeches I have had to deliver in my short time in the House, and that is not to say that I am conflicted; far from it—I will be supporting the Government and voting against the amendment. Rather my difficult is trying to understand the strident objection to the concept of more money coming to every part of this United Kingdom. In trying to understand this point of view, I have tried to distil the essence of the Bill, specifically the provisions in clauses 46 and 47, and the importance of the Bill to maintaining our internal market and by extension our Union. Article 6 of the Union with Ireland Act 1800 states that

“his Majesty’s subjects of Ireland shall have the same privileges and be on the same footing as his Majesty’s subjects of Great Britain.”

Explicitly stated in the Act that created our Union is the idea that all four home nations will be treated equally and fairly and on an equal footing. That principle has operated seamlessly for over 200 years, yet right now, because of the calculated actions of the European Union, that bond is in jeopardy.

I want hon. Members to consider what is at stake here: the very essence of who we are. We will be allowing a supranational entity to exercise power over a part of our nation and fellow UK citizens to be treated differently and potentially cutting them off from their own country’s markets. Step back and reflect for a moment: there are Members of this Parliament seriously arguing that we should allow that to happen if no deal is reached with the EU.

This will not come as a surprise to many in my constituency, or in towns such as Darlington, Accrington, Bury or Bishop Auckland, where they gave the Labour party its marching orders in December. Many of the faces that were straining every sinew to frustrate the 2016 referendum result are still on the Opposition Benches. In fact, the architect of Labour’s second referendum pledge is now the leader of its party. What better signal to send to people in seats such as mine that Labour does not share their values and does not care about their opinions, except for the fact I can only see four Labour Members in the Chamber—and one of them is leaving. The contempt that shows for red wall voters is clear. The Labour party does not take this seriously, does not want a sensible solution to Brexit, does not care about people in the north and midlands.

Of course, they are not on their own in their endeavours. The nationalist parties are salivating at the prospect of a scenario that separates a part of the United Kingdom from the rest. It is after all their raison d’être. It is a petty, divisive attitude that leads to the kind of double-think where they simultaneously carp on about a fictitious power grab while openly admitting they would hand over more powers to Brussels, including powers over our coastal waters and fisheries. So-called civic nationalism is a bit like clean coal: adding a friendly adjective does not make it any the less toxic or any more in need of phasing out.

The clauses being debated today have a distinct significance to communities such a mine. The forgotten towns of the north and midlands voted so overwhelmingly to leave the EU because it simply was not working for them. The UK would send vast sums of money to Brussels, which would then send some of it back, with instructions on what to build, what to fund and where to put a sign thanking them for their largesse. It is a bit like being mugged and then being forced to wear a T-shirt of your assailant.

That money never reached communities like mine, not in any meaningful sense. By taking charge of our finances, by building a shared prosperity fund, we will make sure that more of our money is spent in our communities, helping our people. I want people in Heywood, Middleton, Bamford, Castleton and Norden to have the same opportunities as people in London, Bristol and Cambridge. This Bill does that, in addition to the £2.5 billion for city and growth deals across the whole UK already on the table.

It genuinely saddens me that some people in this place, some of whom I have come to think of as friends and some of whom I greatly respect, are still fighting this battle. As well intentioned as they may be, I think history will find them on the wrong side of this debate, and I would like to quote to them a letter sent to me by my constituent, Prasana MacDonald from Middleton. She says: “Mr Barnier broke his word in good faith for all concerned. We should be a laughing stock in the eyes of good countries who will wonder what has happened to the British nation, in fact, placing ourselves in a position where we can be at the beck and call whenever they choose to do so. It is hardly attractive for any country wanting to do business with us. We will also be in a weaker position, negotiating with the wider world whilst tied to the EU’s apron strings.”

5 pm

Hon. Members should not underestimate the depth of feeling on this. In December, those who stood against the settled will of the British public reaped the whirlwind. The eyes of the nation that put extraordinary trust in this party, and this Government, are still watching. I will simply close by asking hon. Members to consider two questions when they vote tonight. First, which agreement is most important to them, the withdrawal agreement or the Good Friday agreement? Secondly, which union is more important to them, the European Union or the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland? The choice should be clear.

Sammy Wilson Portrait Sammy Wilson
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I do not know if there are too many people across the country today sitting in front of their TV screens, watching this debate: I doubt that many are likely to be doing so. But if there are, many of them will be bemused by our now having spent over three hours wrangling about whether it is a good thing that the Government are putting it into legislation that they are prepared to spend money across the United Kingdom on economic development, improving infrastructure, supporting cultural activities, supporting activities and programmes relating to sport, supporting international educational and training activities and supporting educational and training activities and exchanges within the United Kingdom. It is bizarre that we think this is in some way bad, and that the Government, by doing such a thing, are plotting, conniving and cynically trying to destroy parts of the United Kingdom and the devolution settlement.

The fact of the matter is that as far as England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales are concerned, the devolved Administrations will still have significant spending powers over all those things. They will get their allocation under the Barnett formula, as they have always done. They will have the freedom to make the decisions to spend that money, and they will be able to set their own priorities. Even when it comes to the money that the Government will decide to spend centrally, does anybody really believe that some Minister in Westminster will look at, say, Northern Ireland and say, “There is something that the devolved Administration has never thought of, does not even have as a priority and has never even suggested, but by Jove we are going to spend money in Northern Ireland on that project.” It is totally bizarre to think that that is how money, which is hard raised in the first place, would ever be spent. Of course cognisance will have to be given to, first, what is in the national interest and, secondly, what local administrations believe is important to be delivered on the ground in their own areas.

One of the oddest arguments I have heard today was from the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood), who is no longer in his place. I do not like talking about people who are not here, but as he has not stayed for my contribution, I must make the point. He wants clause 46 removed because he thinks it is in danger of bringing violence to Northern Ireland, it will break the peace agreement and it will tear up the Good Friday agreement. Somehow or other, the Government spending money on those things, or proposing to do so, will destroy the peace in Northern Ireland. I know that some people in this House have fairly thin arguments. When they have thin arguments, and especially when those arguments are anything to do with Brexit or the withdrawal agreement, they usually talk about violence in Northern Ireland, but this is taking it a bit far.

Carla Lockhart Portrait Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)
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My right hon. Friend will share my shock and dismay at the comments that the hon. Member for Foyle made earlier, cheerleading threats from some US politicians, such as Peter King, a known IRA sympathiser, to scupper a UK-US trade deal, to the detriment of his constituents, my constituents and indeed everyone in the United Kingdom. Does he agree that those who promote the narrative of threatening violence, destabilising the peace process or threatening devolution have yet to tell us where those threats are coming or indeed to condemn them?

Sammy Wilson Portrait Sammy Wilson
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my hon. Friend, who has hit the nail on the head. We have all these threats—I have heard them from all around the House in the debate on this Bill. However, I have yet to hear how, first of all, anything in this Bill drives a coach and horses—to use the words of the hon. Member for Foyle—through the Belfast agreement. If it does that, I would have thought that he could give us one example. “Coach and horses” indicates to me that there should be about 100 examples, he did not even give the House one, and of course we get the usual threats.

I want to talk to our amendment 22. My concern is about the provision in this Bill to give financial assistance for all the areas that I have outlined. The danger is that, while it might apply in England, Scotland and Wales, it cannot apply in Northern Ireland, because financial assistance—and a whole range of other assistance, in tax, fiscal policy, industrial policy, research and development, and everything else—falls under the heading of state aid. The Government have realised—rather belatedly, even though they were warned—that the state aid provisions in the withdrawal agreement apply not only to Northern Ireland but to the whole of the United Kingdom, according to article 10 of the Northern Ireland protocol.

The Government have sought to remedy that—of course, they have got a lot of criticism for that—by saying that they will not apply those provisions to England, Scotland and Wales. However, the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy made the position quite clear in the letter that he has sent round, explaining that this legislation will

“ensure that there is no legal confusion about the fact that, while Northern Ireland will remain subject to the EU’s State Aid regime for the duration of the Protocol, Great Britain will not be subject to EU rules in this area.”

The reason for our amendment is to remove the exclusion of Northern Ireland in this Bill, which would otherwise prevent Northern Ireland from being able to benefit from that financial assistance.

If these infrastructure projects are to benefit the whole of the United Kingdom and to address national issues, I cannot understand how the Government can then say, “But by the way, we are consciously making a decision to exclude Northern Ireland from these safeguards.” Be in no doubt: without this Bill, under the withdrawal agreement, the whole of the United Kingdom would have to declare any assistance given to its industries, in any form. The Commission would make a judgment whether that was lawful, and if the Government persisted, the European Court of Justice would decide whether that support could be applied. That is the stark fact. That is one of the reasons why the Government have had to take the steps that they have taken, but they have left Northern Ireland out of that provision. Ministers have been quite explicit about that, and the Bill is quite explicit about that.

That has two effects. Let us not forget that we are talking about the internal market of the United Kingdom. The first impact is that Northern Ireland and businesses in Northern Ireland will be left unprotected from predatory behaviour or unfair competition from other countries in the EU, and especially the Irish Republic. We have good experience. People talk about co-operation between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic. The fact of the matter is that, when it comes to looking for investment, looking for jobs and promoting its economy, the Irish Republic is not co-operating with us. It is not a collaborator; it is a competitor. It has proved that time and again.

We do not have any transatlantic flights between Belfast International airport and North America, even though North America is a very important market for us and a very important source of investment, and connectivity is all-important in that context. Why do we not? Because the Irish Government have promoted flights and used every fiscal device and every means possible to promote Dublin airport. I could go through lots of examples, but time is short.

That is the first impact. Northern Ireland businesses will not have any means of protection. Even if the Northern Ireland Executive spot an issue and say, “We want to have some support for our industries,” that is challengeable in the European Commission and in the Court—which, by the way, we will have no political representation and no judicial representation in.

Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The agrifood and fisheries sectors are very important in my constituency and across Northern Ireland. We have past experience of the Republic of Ireland’s intentions towards the fishing sector. It is very important that we have control of that industry and can grow it. The agrifood sector is equally important. In my constituency, it provides some 2,500 jobs. Does he agree that, if we do not have this protection through our amendment to the Bill, we will be disadvantaged compared with other countries, and the Republic of Ireland in particular?

Sammy Wilson Portrait Sammy Wilson
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Well, the whole withdrawal agreement disadvantages the economy of Northern Ireland. Some aspects have been tinkered with in this Bill, but many have been left as they are.

The second impact refers to the internal market of the United Kingdom. As a result of this Bill, it will be possible for the Government to support industries in GB but not businesses in Northern Ireland. We could therefore have a scenario where a firm located in Northern Ireland cannot benefit from the financial assistance that is available in the rest of the United Kingdom and finds itself in a position where it is advantageous to relocate from Northern Ireland, where it cannot get assistance, to other parts of GB, where it can. So much for this being a Bill to protect the internal market of the United Kingdom! By having a provision for financial aid and excluding Northern Ireland from the measures on ignoring the state aid provisions in the withdrawal agreement, we could distort investment across the United Kingdom to the detriment of Northern Ireland.

For those reasons, I believe that my party’s amendment is reasonable and fair. It meets the requirements and objectives of the Bill—namely, to ensure that the whole United Kingdom benefits from the prosperity that will come when we leave the European Union, and to ensure that the internal market of the United Kingdom will not be distorted. That is one of the reasons why I believe that the Government should include Northern Ireland in the provisions in clauses 42 and 43, and that the House should support amendment 22.

17:15
Fay Jones Portrait Fay Jones
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a pleasure to speak in this lively debate and to follow the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson). He has been a Member of this House for a very long time, but I hope one day that I will be able to speak like that with very few notes.

Clause 46 is the element of the Bill that I most warmly welcome, but overall this is an excellent piece of legislation. Small businesses and farmers in my constituency have always been forward thinking and export-minded. On their behalf, I give this Bill my firm support. As we work on free trade deals with new and innovative foreign markets—I congratulate the Secretary of State for International Trade on already securing one such agreement with Japan—the UK Government must also seek protection for businesses as they trade within the four countries of the United Kingdom. Goods produced in one part of the UK must have the security that is provided by this internal markets legislation. I want lamb reared in Builth Wells to be on the menu in Belfast.

Sarah Atherton Portrait Sarah Atherton (Wrexham) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Twenty-seven per cent. of final goods produced in Wales are exported to the rest of the United Kingdom—[Interruption.] They are. Wrexham houses the largest trading estate in the UK and sits four miles from the English border. Does my hon. Friend agree that we need continued unfettered access, and that this Bill provides that security under the commitment to market access?

Fay Jones Portrait Fay Jones
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We both represent border constituencies, and we share that concern.

Devolution has been the subject of much of this debate. Critics of the Bill argue that this is a power grab, and that powers are being stolen from the Welsh Parliament, but that is simply not the case. Over the weekend, I voiced my support for the Bill on Twitter—always a stupid thing to do—but I was met with a torrent of abuse and foul language, stirred up by supporters and even members of opposition parties. I will not be intimidated into not promoting the Bill. I find it amusing that those contorting themselves with outrage about the Bill on social media blindly support a European Union that is frequently in breach of the law.

This legislation is exactly what people in Wales, and especially my constituents, want. In Brecon and Radnorshire, we are proud Unionists. We want two Governments willing to support us in Wales, but sadly we do not quite have that at the moment.

James Davies Portrait Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend is making some strong points in favour of the Bill. As a mid-Wales MP, she knows of the strong interdependence between mid-Wales and the west midlands. Likewise, north Wales has extremely strong links with north-west England, as the Mersey Dee North Wales all-party group, which I chair, recognises. It is vital for our constituents that infrastructure that crosses the border is invested in, so will she welcome clause 46 as a means of supporting that investment?

Fay Jones Portrait Fay Jones
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I absolutely will. My hon. Friend makes a very important point, which I will come back to later.

I want to look quickly at the notion of a power grab. If I phoned the police and said that my car had been stolen, but when they arrived explained that I never owned the car in the first place, I do not think I would be taken seriously. That is absolutely how we should treat the hysteria of Opposition Members.

When the UK left the European Union, we did so as one United Kingdom. The powers that are returning through the Bill, outlined in clause 46, were ceded to Brussels as part of our membership of the European Union. As sovereignty is restored to this Parliament and the devolved Administrations, it is right that powers should also be restored. Members of this House will recall a long drawn-out legal case brought by Gina Miller, which confirmed that this Parliament was and remains sovereign, and this Bill reinforces that. In addition, the Welsh Parliament will be handed responsibility for 70 new policy areas while none of the existing areas of legislative competence is being removed, so to those who argue this is a power grab, I simply say, “You cannot lose something you never had.”

The Bill will give the UK Government the power to do exactly what they should be doing—strengthening even further the most successful political and economic union in history. It is about doing more at a reserved level, not less at a devolved level. It will give the UK Government the power to invest in Wales’s economic development, something that successive Governments in Cardiff Bay have refused to do. Broadband is a good example of that; according to the House of Commons Library, Brecon and Radnorshire lags at 648th in the league table of 650 constituencies for broadband speed. [Interruption.] I hear the hon. Member for Cardiff North (Anna McMorrin) chuntering from a sedentary position, but that is in the House of Commons Library. Her party is responsible for it.

Schemes such as the Welsh Government’s Superfast Cymru have been enabled by taxpayers in Brecon and Radnor, despite them barely having felt the benefit of that money, while the south Wales valleys—a hotbed of Labour party support—are fully connected up with high-speed internet access. Areas that do not vote Labour in Wales are punished with second-rate public services and we must correct this.

Shaun Bailey Portrait Shaun Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will my hon. Friend clarify something for me? If I am right and have interpreted the Bill correctly, in theory, the UK Government could put together the M4 relief road, which the Labour party has just decided not to go with. Am I correct in that analysis?

Fay Jones Portrait Fay Jones
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That is certainly a good point and one that has been hotly contested. The Welsh Government wasted an awful lot of money on it, but never even arrived at a decision.

Through the Bill, there are huge opportunities for Brecon and Radnorshire. I can get my shopping list out and bid for funding for a new general hospital. Considering we are the largest constituency in England and Wales by land and we do not have a district general hospital, that will be very welcome. Constituents are forced to travel outside Powys to hospitals in Hereford, Swansea or Aberystwyth for treatment. I see the Minister making notes. I assure her I would bite her hand off on this. The same can be said for railway infrastructure. We can utilise the nascent Marches growth deal and reopen the railway between Hereford and Brecon, boosting our tourism opportunities while providing greener public transport solutions.

The Bill delivers on exactly what we said we would do at the general election. It enables us to level up in all four corners of the United Kingdom. It will be warmly welcomed in mid-Wales, which has been ignored by Labour and the Liberal Democrats in coalition in Cardiff Bay. Sadly, there is no doubt that the opposition parties will use the Bill as an opportunity to reignite their campaign of talking down our potential as a sovereign, independent nation. Rather than strengthening our Union and empowering our Parliaments in all four nations, they would prefer to be subservient to Brussels for decades to come. I say to them that now is not the time to remain in the past. Rather, it is time to look forward to a new chapter in our shared history, laying the foundations for making this the most prosperous chapter yet. This Bill and this clause do exactly that.

Claire Hanna Portrait Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Unfortunately, I missed it, but I have heard from one of the enraptured fans of the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) that he asked what in the withdrawal agreement, what in Brexit and what in this protocol defends the Good Friday agreement. If the Committee does not mind, I will take a minute to explain.

I do not know whether Members watched the sit com “Only Fools and Horses”, but anytime Del wanted Rodney to do something difficult or emotional, he would say, “Rodney, on her deathbed, our mother said…” Then he would proceed to make his pitch. I feel that, sometimes, the Good Friday agreement is used in the same way.

For example, the Prime Minister is before a Committee today, invoking the Good Friday agreement and then proceeding to endorse actions that would go through it. I will take a minute to explain this to people and invite them to take their understanding of the Good Friday agreement not from those who stood outside and screamed through the windows when people were negotiating that agreement, and not from people who fought tooth and nail to prevent the implementation of the agreement while others were doing the heavy lifting to prevent slaughter on the streets and hopelessness for young people.

When people go to listen about the Good Friday agreement, they should please select their sources carefully. It does not have an enormous amount to say about borders, hard or soft, because, it is fair to say, in 1998 there was an assumption that shared EU membership, like the air around us and the ground beneath our feet, would be something that we would have in common between Britain and Ireland. There are numerous references to growing friendships between our two islands through that body. It says a lot about relationships. It is about relationships at its core—about relationships within Northern Ireland between different traditions, relationships north and south, and relationships between our two islands. The past four years have profoundly strained every single one of those relationships. Furthermore, the things that that we wanted or needed to talk about less—borders, sovereignty and passports; the things that the Good Friday agreement allowed us to potentially move on from—have been inserted into our everyday lives every minute of every hour of the past four years. It also has a lot to say in the political declaration about the rule of law—about democratically agreed structures and respectful process. Members can decide whether or not what has happened in the past four years meets those criteria.

Our amendment 19 seeks to mitigate some of the damage caused by clause 46. As well as all that I have said about the Good Friday agreement, it was also about local decision making and putting power in the hands of local people—building up trust between communities and between elected representatives by working in the common interest in making decisions together. Indeed, it was those factors, with the possibility of self-determination and unhindered access to the whole of the island, that allowed peaceful, constitutional, democratic Irish nationalism of the tradition that my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) and I represent to triumph over violent republicanism. That is some of what we are losing whenever we take away the ability for people to make their own decisions.

We are not making a nationalist argument. The argument is not that we are opposed to a UK internal market. I can read a spreadsheet as well as anybody in this room, and I understand the value of the economy and all that flows east to west. By the way, of course, the barriers to trade are a consequence of hard Brexit ideology; we argued and fought against barriers in any direction. The point that we are trying to make is that we need to protect the discretion to tailor to our own needs. The late John Hume, who passed away last month, said many times that the best peace process is a job. It was EU structural funds, regional funds and rural funds that transformed Northern Ireland at a time when it desperately needed them. They did that by engaging local expertise and an understanding of local need. I have heard Members complain that some of the regions got more than their fair share. I do not feel any shame about that, because those funds were targeted on the basis of need, and Northern Ireland did benefit very substantially. But those funds will disappear and will be replaced by the shared prosperity fund, which has no defined role for the devolved institutions. As we heard earlier, we were promised a consultation on what that would look like by the end of 2018, but, as far as I am aware, it has not appeared.

I will never be one to turn up my nose at investment for anywhere, particularly for the region I represent, but it has to be investment that is spent strategically, with consent. Public money should be spent in a joined-up and transparent way—and I say, with the greatest respect, that this Government do not have a tremendous record on any of those things. Every few months, they raise the prospect of a bridge from Scotland to Northern Ireland—this, by the way, from a Prime Minister who could not build a bridge from London to London. If you actually go to Northern Ireland, you will find that most people would much rather have a decent road from Belfast or Derry.

A core part of the 1998 agreement, strand 2, was about north-south co-operation and the potential for that through shared EU funds. The new proposed approach could greatly undermine that if these investments are made without appropriate consultation. I appreciate that people have different perspectives and I try to understand them, but what some Conservative Members and others here might see as the opportunities of global Britain I worry will become, under this Bill, the obligations of global Britain to accept things like chlorinated chicken and the US forays into public services. With respect, before the summer we gave this Government numerous opportunities, in numerous Bills, to put into legislative effect protections against those things, and they refused to do so. It is therefore understandable that people within those industries in devolved areas do not have the confidence that they would be able to ward off those changes. It must also be understood that our economy is very different. A third of Northern Ireland’s exports are in agrifoods; we cannot withstand that same pressure, as this is how people make their living.

17:30
London-led development also, of course, has the potential to be inconsistent with the needs of future generations, and for that reason we will certainly be supporting amendment 20, which would require funded projects to be consistent with environmental goals and targets. The Bill is wide in its scope, but it talks about water, rail and health, and about acquisition. I want to ask the Minister: at what point does acquiring become acquisition? Would the provision in question allow the UK Government to acquire Northern Ireland Water or Translink, our transport company, and privatise it? They can tell me whether or not they would do that, but I think that the Bill is clear that they could do it.
It is also possible that as well as the withdrawal agreement another document the Prime Minister has not read very well is January’s “New Decade, New Approach” deal in Northern Ireland, because it promised to
“restore public confidence in devolved government”.
This Bill undermines devolved government—it does it very clearly. As I mentioned, the political declaration that accompanied the 1998 agreement does talk about primacy of the rule of law and democratic arrangements. I would hope that all Members in this House, whether they voted leave or remain—no matter how sore I am about it, I accept that a decision has been taken—and regardless of their position on that issue, could support the rule of law. No matter whether someone is a nationalist, Unionist or completely agnostic, the principle of devolution has been endorsed by the people of Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. This Bill is an assault on that principle, and anybody who respects consent, and the views of people in those Administrations and those populations, should support the amendments.
Dehenna Davison Portrait Dehenna Davison (Bishop Auckland) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I want to thank everyone from across the House for making incredibly strong contributions today, regardless of which side of the debate they fall on.

I stand here to speak about a principle that underpins the reason we all stand in this Chamber, that is a cornerstone of our democracy and the backbone of our Union. I am here today to talk about freedom. The notion of freedom and a desire to defend that freedom are both things that drive me, and I know they drive so many of us in this place. That freedom takes many forms. First, the people of our United Kingdom have the freedom of political choice. We in this place operate as representatives of the people. We are their voice in Parliament and, as a collective, we are the physical embodiment of the political freedom our constituents possess, so we have an overriding duty to act upon what they have freely expressed as their democratic desires.

As this Bill progresses, I ask that we all remember and keep at the forefront of our minds the fact that the people of the UK had the freedom of political choice, directed us to deliver Brexit and demanded that we, as a collective, come together on the will of the British people.

Alan Brown Portrait Alan Brown
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Lady talks about the freedom of political choices. How come the people of Scotland have voted overwhelmingly for Scottish National party representation, but in this Bill a UK Tory Government are forcing policies that undermine devolution? Where is our political choice there?

Dehenna Davison Portrait Dehenna Davison
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Gentleman will recall that a few years ago the people of Scotland had the political freedom to choose whether or not they wanted to remain part of this Union and they made that decision. This Government have been given an overwhelming democratic mandate to make sure that delivering on the will of the British people is achieved. The British public had the freedom to choose to leave the EU and the freedom to appoint a Government to—get ready for it—get Brexit done. We must repay that trust and uphold that freedom, and this Bill will allow us to do just that. It is our duty to put the interests of the UK first, to secure our sovereignty, to control our borders, to protect the territorial integrity of the UK and to fundamentally empower the British people and create the best life possible for them. We must remember that all of us are here only on the command of our constituents, and this Bill is our chance to empower the Government to secure a brighter future for the people we represent.

Angus Brendan MacNeil Portrait Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Following up on the answer the hon. Lady gave my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown), is the UK a centralising superstate or a Union of four nations, where each has a say? Or can the others be bullied by one?

Dehenna Davison Portrait Dehenna Davison
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The United Kingdom is a Union—the clue is in the name. I will not forget, nor will I ever take it for granted, that the residents of Bishop Auckland had the freedom to choose me as their voice in Parliament. Across every demographic on my patch—from Spennymoor to Shildon and from Barney to Bowes—I have heard the same message: “We have been taken for granted. We have been left behind. We have been ignored.” We in this place cannot allow that to continue. We need to show that we are listening and we need to level up.

For too long, the north-east has been falling behind, failed by years of poor local leadership from Labour and let down over time by a series of successive Governments. Now, empowered by this Government’s levelling up agenda, which is the heart and soul of this Conservative party, we must do better. We must deliver that much needed investment for the north-east, so clause 46 has my wholehearted support. As we know, it will allow the UK Government the freedom to spend taxpayers’ money that was previously administered by the EU.

I must admit that the north-east has been the beneficiary of UK aid money, but as we carve out a bright future as an independent nation, it is only right that our Government have the freedom to decide how we spend our money. It is our job as local MPs then to lobby for that money for our local areas, and I can assure all residents of Bishop Auckland that I will be first in the queue for that. The EU is resisting that notion and is attempting to use state aid as a chain to bind our hands so that we comply with its demands in this negotiation, yet it does not ask the same of other nations with whom it is negotiating trade deals. All we want is fairness.

As well as the freedom of political choice, if the referendum taught us anything it is that we as a nation also deeply desire the freedom to set our own domestic policy and that the sovereignty of the UK is paramount. That is what is being threatened by bureaucrats in Brussels. Their proven willingness to operate without good faith and to interpret the withdrawal agreement in, frankly, absurd and dangerous ways is why we need to empower this Government with the protective powers to secure the sovereignty and territorial integrity of our United Kingdom.

Anna McMorrin Portrait Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Is the hon. Lady able to explain what the devolution settlement is, and therefore the powers that actually reside with Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland right now in terms of the Parliaments in those nations making their own decisions?

Dehenna Davison Portrait Dehenna Davison
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

There are multiple devolution Acts, which I am happy to email to the hon. Lady if she wants to find that out for herself. Let us not forget that the British people have demonstrated the right and power to operate with sovereignty time and time again.

Andrew Bowie Portrait Andrew Bowie
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Does my hon. Friend not agree with me that it is rather concerning that a member of the governing party of Wales does not seem to understand what powers they have in Wales to spend on and support the Welsh people?

Dehenna Davison Portrait Dehenna Davison
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

As in so many things, I completely agree with my hon. Friend.

Dehenna Davison Portrait Dehenna Davison
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am not going to give way again. Sovereignty must apply to our United Kingdom, and I do not just mean the mainland. The European Union wants us to build a wall—not a physical wall, but a vast barrier that will none the less rip a deep wound into the heart of our Union, and we cannot allow there to be any kind of barrier between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. We gave our word to the British public and to our residents in Northern Ireland that we would not allow that to happen, so this week we must do our duty, as those who have come before us have always done, to uphold the territorial integrity of the United Kingdom. Residents of one part of our country should always have the freedom to travel and trade with another.

Alan Brown Portrait Alan Brown
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the hon. Lady give way?

Dehenna Davison Portrait Dehenna Davison
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will not be giving way again; there are other Members who want to speak.

I now turn to my friends in Scotland. We all remember how we witnessed the people of Scotland exert their right of political freedom to choose to stay as part of our Union. [Interruption.] I cannot state this more clearly: the United Kingdom is stronger united. The Scottish people chose their future as part of our Union, and it is the faith in that strength that we must protect.

Angus Brendan MacNeil Portrait Angus Brendan MacNeil
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the hon. Lady give way?

Dehenna Davison Portrait Dehenna Davison
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will not give way again. I know by now I should not be surprised by SNP Members’ antics, but I am surprised by the tone of their amendments today. I find it remarkable that SNP Members are against the prospect of additional funding for their communities. They would rather have UK taxpayers hand over our pocket money to Brussels in order for it to siphon off a portion, give us a measly bit back and pat us on the head. Well, I say no. We already know that the SNP is adamant that it wants to break up our Union, but why is it so unwilling to be given powers by the UK Government, yet so willing to hand them away to Brussels? I have spoken of the freedoms that we have.

Fay Jones Portrait Fay Jones
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. She is perfectly capable of taking care of herself, but I have to say that the way in which senior Opposition Members are hectoring and bullying a younger female Member of this House is shameful.

Dehenna Davison Portrait Dehenna Davison
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

That is much appreciated. I must say I really respect the fact that we on this side of the House tend to be more polite and to listen when Opposition Members are speaking.

I have spoken about the freedoms that we have, and about the freedoms that we are aiming to deliver. They are the freedoms that the British public have told us time and again that they want us to have. Clause 46 is a vital part of a Bill that allows us to maintain and reclaim our freedom, and that is why I reject the amendments laid down by other hon. Members.

But today is about more than just these clauses and this Bill; it is about the very heart of our democracy. We find ourselves today at a defining moment in British history, and on this day we must recall that the British people have the freedom to choose their own future, that they freely chose to leave the EU, that they have put their faith in our Prime Minister, and that they need us to be able to operate in a sovereign manner to allow us to open our arms to the world. We will look back on this moment in the years to come, and we owe it to ourselves and our constituents to say that we stood on the right side of history.

With just weeks to go until the end of negotiations in the David and Goliath battle between the UK and EU, this is the eleventh hour. We have a duty to honour the freedom that the British public have, so we must reclaim our sovereignty, protect the territorial integrity of the United Kingdom and empower the country to trade with nations around the world, not just with our immediate neighbours. As the voice of the British people, it is our responsibility to create the brighter future that they have demanded, and on this day we must vote to give the Government the freedom they need to achieve that. I ask my hon. and right hon. Friends right across the House to vote with me, to vote with the voice of the British people and to vote to uphold the freedom of choice that underpins our democracy. I will always stand for freedom, and this week I have been and will be voting for it. I hope hon. Members will too.

Nigel Evans Portrait The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Before I call Pete Wishart, I just want to remind everyone that 18 Members still wish to participate in the debate, so please be mindful of that fact when making your contributions.

Pete Wishart Portrait Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Dehenna Davison). I just love all the new Tory Members of Parliament—they are the best recruiting sergeant we have for the cause of independence anywhere in the House. Their lack of understanding of the devolution settlement is just astounding sometimes. What they are doing with their contributions and how that is assisting our cause is just fantastic for us. We very much enjoy every single contribution they make, and we want to encourage them. Please get up and disparage Scotland! Tell us our democracy does not matter! Tell us no, all the time, because all it does is grow support for independence.

Dehenna Davison Portrait Dehenna Davison
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I would just like to thank the hon. Member for his mansplaining.

Pete Wishart Portrait Pete Wishart
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the hon. Lady. I have to say that I enjoyed her speech. I just wish that the Conservatives would make more of them, because this is just driving up support for us.

I rise today to oppose totally and utterly clauses 46 and 47 in their absolute entirety. With these clauses, we are now getting into the festering guts of this rotten rogue state Bill, and we are seeing how its entrails will choke the very life out of our Parliament and stifle our Scottish democracy. I hope that paints a vivid enough picture for Conservative Members. These clauses, if passed, would bring a shuddering halt to our Parliament’s exclusive authority over the devolved powers agreed in the Scotland Act 1998.

Pete Wishart Portrait Pete Wishart
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I tend to eat Tory Back Benchers for breakfast, but if the hon. Gentleman wants, I will let him come in.

David Simmonds Portrait David Simmonds
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful for his vivid description of the political impact of the Bill, but does he not recognise that the powers that the Bill covers are currently maintained in Brussels and supervised by the Council of Ministers, on which the devolved Administrations have no representation? He and his colleagues will therefore have a greater say over these matters when they are controlled by this House than they have done hitherto.

Pete Wishart Portrait Pete Wishart
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is probably just as well I have eaten, because I would otherwise consume that with no problem at all. Can I just say to the hon. Gentleman that we would take the authority of the EU looking over Scotland any day, rather than rogue state UK. I say that very candidly and sincerely.

Andrew Bowie Portrait Andrew Bowie
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Pete Wishart Portrait Pete Wishart
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

No, I won’t. [Interruption.] I might give way later, as the hon. Gentleman is a prize on the Government Benches, and we will of course want to hear from him in time, because I enjoy our little exchanges.

17:45
Never before has devolution faced such challenges—such an audacious attempt to circumvent its authority. Never before has a piece of legislation presented itself that just seeks to undermine the authority of Scottish democracy.
The Scotland Act 1998 is quite a simple document. It is a very good document; it was very thoughtfully constructed. At the heart of the Act is the idea that everything other than the powers listed in schedule 5 as reserved is assumed to be devolved. That has underpinned 21 years of devolution of the Scottish Parliament and has served us well. It was designed by the Labour party, and I give it credit for what it did. It came out of the views and visions of the constitutional convention of the 1990s. The reserved powers were the personal idea of Donald Dewar—a few people have mentioned him today, and it is right to recognise him as the father of devolution. He very carefully crafted the Scotland Act to ensure that it would be enduring—that devolution would be enduring.
With these clauses in this Bill, however, what we do for the first time ever with devolution is blur and confuse what is reserved and what is devolved. I will try in my contribution to understand a little better why we are doing this—the intention and purpose of this, and what the result will be of what is being proposed.
Mr Evans, you have been in the House as long as I have, and I think I have spoken on every Scotland Act; in fact I probably led for the Scottish National party on every Scotland Act other than the 1998 Act, when I was not yet in the House. You will probably remember that the Scotland Act 2012, which followed the Calman commission, specifically looked at schedule 5 and the reserved powers. I remember a very curious debate then in this House about Antarctica; because Antarctica was not listed in schedule 5 of the Scotland Act it was presumed to be devolved to Scotland. I reassure colleagues opposite that we have no territorial claim to the south Atlantic; the penguins and narwhals can relax—they are not going to be under the jurisdiction of Scotland. However, so seriously did this House take the distinction between reserved and devolved powers that Members were prepared to debate Antarctica to ensure it was placed in schedule 5 of the Scotland Act. Now they are prepared to throw that all away, and for what?
Angus Brendan MacNeil Portrait Angus Brendan MacNeil
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My hon. Friend is making a fine speech and points out the way that devolution has been torn apart by the Conservative party. The answer to that is what is increasingly coming from poll after poll of the Scottish people: the answer is not to continue under the Conservatives. The answer is independence; we go up the road and they can argue the way they want themselves.

Pete Wishart Portrait Pete Wishart
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Yes, what they want to do is up to them. Get on with it, for goodness sake, just do not take our country down with you. My hon. Friend is spot on.

What is the Government’s view on all this? I have listened to the speeches in this debate, and some of those from Conservative Members were totally astounding: “There’s nothing to see here. Don’t worry your precious little Jockish heads about what we’re doing. All we are doing is merely copying what the EU does on state aid and structural funding.” However, I say to them that this idea that there is some sort of equivalence between the European Union and the UK is total and utter bunkum and nonsense. Let me explain why to them. The EU is a partnership association made up of member states; it is a rules-based organisation based on the decisions of its members. The United Kingdom, on the other hand, is an incorporating Union that simply subsumes Scotland as a nation and forces us under the sovereignty of this Parliament, even though we agree on the principle of the sovereignty of the people. They could not be more different, but yet again Conservative Members tell us that this is all about an equivalence with the EU, and that is utter, utter bunkum.

Alan Brown Portrait Alan Brown
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My hon. Friend is reminding Conservative Members of that point, and is it not the case that the EU has never forced a single infrastructure project on Scotland, yet clause 46 allows the UK Government to do what they want in Scotland against the wishes of the Scottish Parliament?

Pete Wishart Portrait Pete Wishart
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That is exactly the essence of what this is all about—this idea that somehow they know better for Scotland, better than the directly elected representatives of the people in the Scottish Parliament. It is an absurd suggestion. There is no evidence that they know better than the Scottish Parliament, and we will not accept that. I thank my hon. Friend for his thoughts.

The Government have suggested today that we are complaining about extra funding. First, is there any extra funding? Secondly, where does it come from? Thirdly, how much is it going to be? We could have a debate about extra funding if they could answer all those questions. I am looking at the Minister; maybe she could tell us. We have the devolved powers for a particular reason. It is because we want democratic control over the decision makers on everything from education to health to infrastructure to water—all the things that they now want to exercise responsibility over.

Jerome Mayhew Portrait Jerome Mayhew (Broadland) (Con)
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Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Pete Wishart Portrait Pete Wishart
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I do not have time. I am conscious that other people want to come in.

Before devolution, there was a Scotland Office. It exercised responsibility, authority and powers over all the areas that are now controlled by the Scottish Parliament. The reason devolution came across was to directly express democratic control over those responsibilities. The Government now want to go back to the dark days of the 1980s, under the regime of Michael Forsyth and Malcolm Rifkind. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] They are going “Hear, hear”! I am hearing a “Hear, hear” from the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie). May I just say that the rest of Scotland does not share that ambition? I am pretty certain that when he stands next year for the Scottish Parliament he will find that out.

So that is what the Government are doing—they are attempting to take us back to those days. Extra money is great if there is any; I am just wondering how much it is, and whatever it is, how it will be distributed. But it should be under the democratic control of the Scottish Parliament when it comes to the devolved powers, because that is what it is there to do.

Why are the Government really doing this? Here is my theory; tell me if I am on the right tracks. They can never win an election in Scotland—the Scottish Conservatives have absolutely no chance of winning an election in Scotland. The new ever-cheerful hon. Member for Moray (Douglas Ross) and his belligerent baroness partner are actually taking the Scottish Conservatives further down. They are sinking below 20% in the polls. So they are thinking, “We’re never, ever going to get legislative responsibility and control of the Scottish Government, so we’ll just go round it—we’ll just circumvent it.” That is actually easier for the Scottish Conservatives than winning an election. So that is why they are doing it.

Another thing that they are doing is what I call “slap a jack on it”—the idea that somehow, the Scottish people will learn to love the Conservatives if they see a whole load of projects with Union Jacks on, given by the largesse and generosity of the Great Britain and United Kingdom Parliament. Nothing will irritate the Scottish people more than seeing all that rubbish splattered about our country.

I will just finish with this. Aggressive Unionism is not working for them. I know that they have all these new figures in the Scotland Office. They have the new constitution unit. Surely, with all these great thinkers on the Union, someone must be able to turn round to the Government and say to them, “We’ve tried this. We tried undermining the powers of the Scottish Parliament. We tried ‘slap a jack on it.’ We tried all these things to curtail Scottish democracy, and all that is happening is that support for independence is going up and up and up.” Now, it might just be me, but if you are doing the same thing again and again and it is not working for you, surely you should change it and do something different, to try and ensure that the Union case prevails. It is almost to our benefit that they are continuing with this type of aggressive Unionism, because what we have seen is a rise in support for independence. I give them this advice only because I know that they will never take it: what they are doing is ensuring the Union’s demise.

The day of Scotland being subject to rubbish like this rogue state UK Bill, with the stripping of our powers and the diminishing of our democracy, is a day too long. This issue will be critical in the next Scottish parliamentary election. They are going to get gubbed. There will be a demand from Scotland for independence, and it will be goodbye Westminster—and it cannot come soon enough.

Rob Roberts Portrait Rob Roberts (Delyn) (Con)
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It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart). As I am looking to speak about the Bill’s contents, I will not describe him in the patronising, condescending manner in which he describes me and my colleagues.

Although the coronavirus pandemic has had devastating impacts across many areas of our society, it has been useful in highlighting what is needed to achieve success and stability in the government of our nations—a united and consistent approach, and leadership. Many times in the past few months the governance from Wales has been neither united nor consistent, nor has it demonstrated leadership. The Welsh Government have let down the people of Wales due to its often slow, confusing and divided stance, and then had the audacity to turn the mirror on this House and say that the confusion was caused by the UK Government.

Amendment 33 would cause further division between our four nations and looks to divide our great Union completely. This is not a Bill about politics. It is not a Bill about who get to be the ones writing the cheques or taking the credit for things. This is an economic Bill that will allow more money to be spent in Wales for the benefit of our villages, towns, cities, businesses and residents. Covid has shown us the value of devolved nations working together as a united force, yet when provisions set out in the Bill allow for joint working and support that would benefit individuals across our United Kingdom, those sat on the other side of this House oppose it.

Alan Brown Portrait Alan Brown
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Will the hon. Member give way?

Rob Roberts Portrait Rob Roberts
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I will not give way to the hon. Member, who has been on his feet longer than anybody, despite not being on the call list and not considering it important enough to put in to speak.

The amendments that have been tabled would prevent the Government from achieving their levelling-up agenda for the whole United Kingdom, as any Government spending decisions would potentially be held up by the devolved nations. Wales will not lose a single penny of EU funding when the transition period ends. If anything, this streamlined approach will ensure that together, we can tackle inequality and deprivation across the UK, with less money wasted on bureaucracy.

Not only does the Bill provide for greater unity and cohesion, but it gives unprecedented powers to all the devolved nations, with over 70 new policy areas previously held at EU level now coming direct to the devolved nations. Far from being a power grab, as Opposition Members are so keen to declare, the Bill offers greater support and funding to all parts of the United Kingdom. That is what this Bill should be about: directing funding and support to the right places to support jobs, businesses and livelihoods. Today’s amendments from the various Opposition parties do the opposite and are more concerned with playing political games with the Union than supporting the needs of people in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. We are here for our people.

Communities in Delyn and across north Wales will greatly benefit from the new powers that the Bill sets out. With subsidy control now being a reserved matter for the UK Government, the EU will no longer be in charge of taxpayers’ money, and instead, the UK Government will be able to invest in areas that need it most. In 2013, the Welsh Government closed Flint hospital in my constituency to reduce costs in the north Wales health board, which still sits in special measures five years later, leaving the residents of Flint having to travel on sporadic and failing public transport to other facilities to visit their loved ones. Had this Bill been in place at that time, could it have helped the people of Flint to retain their vital community infrastructure?

The Labour-led Welsh Government continue to fail the people of Wales in policy areas that are wholly devolved, such as education. Despite increases in the Welsh block grant, funding for schools is still at the same level as it was in 2006. We need a strong Wales in a strong United Kingdom. The UK Government have the financial capability to support the Welsh Government in delivering for the people of Wales, creating more jobs and improving infrastructure by upgrading the A55 to motorway standard and delivering an M4 relief road, which the Welsh Government have so far failed to do.

While Labour may claim to be the party of the Union and to support the devolved nations’ interests, this UK Government will invest directly in Wales and support Welsh communities with the clauses in this Bill, which the Labour party have spent the last few days doing everything they can to stop, denying additional powers to the Senedd and additional funding to the people of Wales. By leaving the EU, this democratically elected Government will be able to provide the support that our communities need—the new financial support system that will ensure that Wales and UK priorities are taken into account and that there is not the focus that there was previously on the specific requirements of the EU. Decades of failed European priorities led to the people of Wales rejecting EU membership more than four years ago.

While Scottish nationalist party Members are ready to rejoin the EU at the drop of a hat, their entire position is to give the 70 powers that they are about to obtain straight back to the EU. They say that this Bill is destroying the Union. I might be misunderstanding their entire raison d’être, but if they believe that to be the case, I look forward to seeing them join us in the Lobby at each stage of the Bill to vote it through, because that would seem to accord with their greatest wish. The fact is that they oppose it because they know it does exactly the opposite. It enhances, it stabilises and it reinforces the Union of the United Kingdom, and I am proud to be a member of the Conservative and Unionist party supporting clauses 46 and 47 before the Committee today.

00:05
Prior to coming into this House, I was a financial planner. One of the elements of planning was to ensure the right money in the right hands at the right time, and these clauses are about getting the right money to the right places in a timely manner for the benefit of the people, bringing more powers to each devolved nation and supporting every part of the United Kingdom. Today’s Opposition amendments simply take away from this, and I urge those sitting across from me in the Chamber today to stop playing political games and to recognise the benefits this will bring to us all.
Shaun Bailey Portrait Shaun Bailey
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Before I start my comments, I would like to say that it is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Rob Roberts). Obviously, it is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart). When I saw his name on the call list, I was filled with excitement, and he has not disappointed. His remarks were an oratorical smorgasbord, with words I had not even thought of. Was it “slap a jack”, or whatever it was? To get that into Hansard is an achievement. While I disagree with pretty much everything he said, as always, in his usual way, he has not let us down, so it is always great to follow him.

I want to be a bit parochial in my comments today because, for me, clauses 46 and 47 of this Bill are, ultimately about our communities. That is the core of this, and I want to talk about my communities today because, like many people who have spoken and contributed ahead of me, I have real problems in my communities, which can be resolved and dealt with, I hope by utilising the provisions in clause 46 of this Bill.

Let us look at the deprivation element and how we can use the investment angle to tackle deprivation. In my constituency, Tipton—a town many Members have heard me talk about time and again; many call it the forgotten city—is in the lowest 20th percentile of deprivation in this country. People in that community have felt abandoned and ignored—by successive Governments of every colour—for years and years. Yes, they have benefited from the funding that had come from the EU, and it is this Government’s commitment to ensure, through the shared prosperity fund, that those communities still have a lifeline and still have a way in which we can ensure that we can truly level them up.

The reason people sent me here and the reason they voted to leave the European Union was a simple one: it was that they felt this place spoke at them. They felt they had been ignored. They had seen their communities degraded, they have not seen the benefits lauded by those who wished us to remain in it and they felt that their communities had been let down because they felt they did not matter. That is how they had been left to feel. So this is about ensuring that this Government, as we leave the EU, can fulfil that pledge on a UK basis.

In my communities, I still have parents coming to me in tears because they fear for their child’s future because of where they come from. I have people saying to me, “Ah, when you’re from Tipton, the police will stop you because of the community you come from”. That is why this matters. That is why I am surprised to a degree by the opposition to this, because surely the betterment and empowerment of our communities is why all of us are here. It is absolutely the core fundamental principle of being Members of Parliament. I think as well of what we can do and of the potential of clause 46, and again I am going to talk about my own community, because that is why I am here. [Interruption.] Sorry, Mr Evans, I am looking at clause 46 in terms of rejecting the amendments, and clause 46 does provide us with such an opportunity across the UK.

I get the points that have been raised about devolution and I have heard the points made by Opposition Members, but I would say that the elephant in the room, which we have missed actually, is English devolution and how that squares with this. I think of the West Midlands Combined Authority. That is an example of devolution and of a devolved administration engaging with the UK Government, through our Mayor Andy Street. It has lobbied for investment in infrastructure and is lobbying the UK Government to fulfil their pledge to ensure that the areas that require those benefits or require such funding do get it. It is by a proactive approach that the fears that Members are trying to combat with these amendments can be allayed. Surely it is about a proactive approach.

Stuart Anderson Portrait Stuart Anderson (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)
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I have gladly worked with my hon. Friend across the Black Country. He will know that Andy Street has been very proactive in his approach and that we are seeing the benefits already. Does my hon. Friend think that he is key to our achieving a very bright future across the west midlands, and that we need to see him elected next May in order to see a prosperous future?

Shaun Bailey Portrait Shaun Bailey
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Of course I agree with my hon. Friend, but I want to focus my remarks on devolution and on this accusation of a power grab. Ultimately, the core of the opposition to these clauses today is that, actually, it is believed that this Government are taking away powers. As my hon. Friends have said, my communities do not mind where the money comes from as long as they see the benefits. I am sure that Members from all parts of the Committee will agree with that. Investment is investment. As I have said, we were sent to this place to ensure the better empowerment of our communities, especially for the vulnerable people in those communities. We have seen these back and forth arguments before, and I do not want get dragged into them and I do not want to be repetitious. I appreciate though that, at this point, it is difficult not to be repetitious, but what I would say is that the opportunities that come from this Bill will allow us, on a UK-wide level, to truly commit to levelling up to ensure that we can seize those opportunities as we go forward and to ensure that we can deliver, particularly in areas such as mine, on that election mandate and on what people believed they were voting for four years ago and in December last year. That is absolutely crucial.

I want to bring my remarks to a close because I am incredibly conscious that other Members want to get in, so I will simply say this: I disagree entirely with those who say that this is a power grab. I reject the amendments. We have so much potential with this Bill, particularly with clause 46, to ensure that we can hold feet to the fire. We should engage and work together. I know that Opposition Members are probably thinking, wahey, a new Member with his lovely naive approach, but we need to have that. We really do. Sometimes that little bit of naivety, that little bit of pushing forward and thinking that, yes, we can talk and put our covers aside means that we can actually bring about change. If we do that, then we will truly see the benefits of this Bill. That will happen through engagement with the institutions. There is still a respect for devolution. As I have said before, I want kids in Tipton to learn about Rabbie Burns as much as anywhere else. I want them to understand the shared culture that we have as members of this Union of nations and understand the cultures of every part of this Union of nations. Ultimately, what this Bill comes down to is engagement with those institutions. We have seen it in England through our combined authorities and the work that they have done to bring in investment using a model that is very similar to the one proposed in this Bill. I support this Bill wholeheartedly.

Anna McMorrin Portrait Anna McMorrin
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Let us just get this straight: this Bill is pure political opportunism from a Government so wrapped up in their own fiction that they have forgotten what reality looks like. As it stands, this Bill will set in motion the biggest re-centralisation of power from Wales to Whitehall in over two decades.

Anna McMorrin Portrait Anna McMorrin
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will give the hon. Gentleman an example.

Those powers have been used to improve the livelihoods of the Welsh people, our economy, our health and education system, local businesses and agriculture—the very fabric of Welsh life. Instead, this Government want to hollow out the rights of the Senedd—those rights and powers that protect Wales and all the standards and services that we cherish from the worst effects of this incompetent UK Government. Let us make no mistake: this is about political opportunism. It is about seeking to take spending powers from a Government who already have those powers and can already make those decisions. Is this not simply because the Conservatives do not like the Government that the people of Wales have voted for and are seeking to take away their democratic rights? This Bill dangles the prospect of increased financial assistance, but where is the detail? We keep hearing the words “levelling up”, but who here can point to the evidence of that so-called levelling up? This Government are a wrecking ball, and I am not prepared to accept this wrecking Bill to smash and grab devolved powers—to rob the Welsh people of a way of life.

Jonathan Gullis Portrait Jonathan Gullis
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The hon. Lady asked for an example of levelling up. The town of Kidsgrove got a £25 million deal through the towns fund. That is a town that had not seen any investment in decades, after 70 years of Labour rule. There is an example, right there, of levelling up.

Anna McMorrin Portrait Anna McMorrin
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will gladly come to the examples of where the Welsh people are being robbed. This UK Government are offering to provide money to Wales to improve infrastructure, but that is an illusion. They have failed systematically to support electrification of the railways, for example, and renewable energy schemes. I see the right hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) in his place. Time and again, he sat in front of the Welsh Affairs Committee and failed to provide an answer for the lack of support for projects across Wales.

Time and again, this Government have come up short. They block and they deflect; they buy themselves time with controversy to mask their inability to govern, to provide or to collaborate. That is what this Bill should be about.

Alun Cairns Portrait Alun Cairns
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The hon. Lady and I share an ambition to see great investment projects in Wales, but I am sure that she would accept that we should invest only in projects that are value for money for the taxpayer. Furthermore, she talks about the successor to European aid. My understanding is that the UK Government have not yet outlined how exactly the shared prosperity fund will work. All this power does—all this legislation does is give additional powers to the UK Government. Surely, additional spend in her constituency and mine is something we should both welcome.

Anna McMorrin Portrait Anna McMorrin
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The right hon. Gentleman’s slip-up—“All this power does”—had it spot on. That gives away the fact that this is exactly about political opportunism. We know that this Government want only to dangle the illusion of financial assistance, which we all know will be directed towards marginal seats or to prop up their pals. They do so at a time when Ministers are not just prepared but willing to break international law.

Alan Brown Portrait Alan Brown
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Is it not the case that there is no proof of any additional money coming? As the hon. Lady says, money could be misappropriated for political gain. The UK Government could squeeze the budgets of the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament and put money into projects that they think will bring political gain.

Anna McMorrin Portrait Anna McMorrin
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The hon. Member is exactly right. Both the Welsh Parliament and the Scottish Parliament now have the powers that the Government are looking to take away.

How can the people of Wales—indeed, how can Welsh Members of Parliament from across the House—accept what the UK Government are trying to sell and then look their constituents in the eye and say that this power grab will leave them better off? Knowing everything we do about this unscrupulous Government, I do not buy it, my constituents will not buy it, and plenty of the Government’s own Members of Parliament are not buying it. Even David Melding, the Welsh Conservatives’ shadow Counsel General in the Senedd, resigned over this, citing misgivings about the UK Government’s approach to devolved governance and this Bill.

Alun Cairns Portrait Alun Cairns
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Will the hon. Lady give way?

Anna McMorrin Portrait Anna McMorrin
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will not.

The UK Government must think again. How far are they willing to threaten peace, erode co-operation and strip devolved Governments of their decision-making powers? And how far would they be prepared to accept lower standards of food and medicines and thrust them on the people of all four nations—all at the hands of just a few unscrupulous Government Ministers and unaccountable aides?

00:01
Nowhere in the Bill can I see legislation that guarantees that standards are upheld; nor can I see any mechanism to agree a common threshold across all four nations. Currently, standards are negotiated fairly and the Welsh Government have the freedom and choice to operate the high standards they wish to operate. The Bill threatens all of that. For example, if this Parliament legislated to allow hormone-injected beef throughout the UK, there would be very little that the Welsh Government could do to stop it from landing on people’s plates in Cardiff North. Neither could they impose different labels or regulate for improved animal welfare; nor could they protect Welsh farmers from being undercut by substandard alternatives.
It is not just about food; restrictions could cut across all devolved areas. For example, had these laws been in place when the UK Government bulk bought substandard personal protective equipment earlier in the current health crisis, Wales would have had to accept their inferior products. What a mess.
Our NHS may be fair game for American private health firms that wish to operate in Wales. They may not currently operate in Wales under existing laws, but they may find that the door has opened up for them. Or how about the fact that in Wales we are proposing to ban nine single-use-plastic products? In England, the number is only three, but under these laws that number will prevail. Do the Government even care?
The Bill should be about how the internal market works and how we work jointly together to agree standards. It should be a race to the top, not a race to the bottom. It is about Britain’s standing in the world; about smooth co-operation and collaboration; and about quality of life and our freedoms. Never have so many people been so vulnerable to the impulses, mistakes and downright ludicrous decisions of such an incompetent few. The people of Wales and the people of Cardiff North deserve better.
Tom Hunt Portrait Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con)
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I will speak to clauses 46 and 47, because I am a good, well-behaved Member of this House, but I will make one quick point, which is that I am entirely comfortable with voting for every aspect of the Bill. From what I can see, it gives this country the ability to live entire and whole. If, under certain circumstances, the EU takes the extraordinary step of essentially forming a blockade in Northern Ireland and putting a border down the Irish sea, it gives us the ability, under these extraordinary circumstances, to show strength and to respond in kind. I am proud to support that.

Let me speak specifically to clauses 46 and 47. When it comes to the EU structural funds, I am slightly confused, because when we were in the European Union, Scotland had six MEPs out of 751 and Wales had four MEPs out of 751. That does not sound to me like much of a say, compared with Scotland now having 49 Members in this place and Wales having 40. To be perfectly honest, I think that what we are proposing in the Bill gives Wales and Scotland’s elected representatives far more say over how the money is spent.

Pete Wishart Portrait Pete Wishart
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Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Tom Hunt Portrait Tom Hunt
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I will not give way. The Bill gives the people of your country far more say over how that money is spent, so it is something to be welcomed. You should stand up for your responsibility to represent your constituents in his place and come here, and when there are opportunities to frame how that money is spent in your areas, use it. That is far from saying, “Actually, no, we don’t want to have a greater influence over how this money is spent; we should send it back to Brussels”—where the money is spent in a most faceless way. Unelected bureaucrats in Brussels make decisions with a little EU flag attached to them. I am sorry, but I do not see the power grab here; it is not a power grab whatsoever.

Pete Wishart Portrait Pete Wishart
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We have been around this so many times. The devolved powers are the responsibility of the Scottish Government, and it is up to them to make spending priorities. However, I was interested by something the hon. Gentleman said about Scotland having six MEPs. How many does he think we get when we become an independent nation? Think of Denmark.

Tom Hunt Portrait Tom Hunt
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We are talking specifically about clauses 46 and 47. We are talking specifically about this money. My argument is that, under these clauses, the people of Scotland and its representatives will have far more influence over how that money is spent than under the status quo. I am glad you intervened on me, because I wanted to give you some political advice, because you are very good at giving political advice to us—

Nigel Evans Portrait The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)
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Order. You are not the only one who is doing this, Tom, but I remind everybody to not use the word “you” unless you are referring to me. You are speaking through the Chair.

Tom Hunt Portrait Tom Hunt
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I am very sorry, Chair. I know that you have let me get away with it once or twice before, and it is right that you are stern. Getting back to this important point about political advice, and in the spirit of co-operation, I would say that I am proud of the Union. I am a Unionist. My Welsh grandfather fought for Britain in the second world war, and I love every nation in the United Kingdom, and that includes Scotland. I want Scotland to remain part of the United Kingdom, but I respect the fact that the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) has a different view, and I respect him and all his people.

However, one of the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues, the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Neale Hanvey), denigrated this country, entire and whole, on Monday, saying that we have a history to be ashamed of. He went back over the past 200 years and found different reasons why we should be ashamed of Great Britain and Northern Ireland at a time when we reflect upon the battle of Britain and how it was Scottish pilots, Ulster pilots, Welsh pilots and English pilots who made the most decisive intervention. The hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath says that we are a country of chancers and lawbreakers, but we should be proud of the fact that we made a decisive intervention in standing up to the most evil regime in modern history. The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire should reflect upon that.

Going back to clauses 46 and 47, I do not see a power grab. I see greater opportunities for the people of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and also the people of England and the constituency that I represent, because we all have crazy examples of how the structural funds have been spent in the past. Let us come together as a House and frame the way that money is spent and invest it in our communities.

I am not surprised that the Labour party has taken a position that seems to be slightly contrary to supporting the Union, because we know that some Opposition Members see no problem with mocking St George’s flag. I found it interesting on Sunday night that a shadow Front Bencher was mocking new Conservative MPs for being proud of the Union flag and for having the Union flag in their backgrounds while they were speaking. I am as proud of the Union flag as I am of St George’s flag. I rest my case.

Sarah Dines Portrait Miss Sarah Dines (Derbyshire Dales) (Con)
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It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Tom Hunt). Having followed the debates on the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill, it would seem that everyone who once wore a wig and a gown, and many others who have never even read a law book, have suddenly become experts in international law. I make no such claim—I am just a humble divorce lawyer—but a lot of my lawyer colleagues on these Benches have asked me for my views. As a divorce barrister, it is through that prism that I look at the withdrawal agreement and this Bill. That simple fact is that the United Kingdom has divorced itself from the EU, and let us not pretend that it was a no-fault divorce. It was an abusive and exploitative relationship, and one which the United Kingdom just had to leave.

As a divorce lawyer, I am all too aware that bullying and unreasonable demands sometimes complicate the end of a relationship, and I know attempts at coercive control when I see them. This House legislated against domestic coercive control earlier this year. We are legislating this week and next week to prevent the EU’s attempt to coercively control the relationship within our family of nations in the United Kingdom.

As you will know, Mr Evans, it is famously said that a week in politics is a long time, but we forget at our peril the fact that this Parliament was elected and sits for one reason and one reason alone: to deliver Brexit. The British Parliament can make law. It can amend and repeal laws. It can make treaties, and it can unmake treaties. The legislation before us, including clauses 46 and 47, will cut away once and for all the dead hand of the EU from British sovereignty.

The present stance of the Opposition parties is just the latest, and perhaps the last, device aimed at delaying or diverting Brexit. It has to be seen as such. The European Union has repeatedly misread the British public. There will be no foreign borders within the United Kingdom. There will be no border down the Irish sea, separating our precious countries within this precious kingdom. If the EU so desperately wishes to have a hard border, let it construct one wherever it desires, but it will not be within our United Kingdom. The hard-won peace process in Northern Ireland just means too much to us. We will protect that peace and the Belfast agreement. There will be no hard border from us. The EU’s attempt to invoke the Good Friday agreement in order to coerce trade concessions is outrageous on so many levels. What an insult to the peace process and to us peace-loving citizens of the United Kingdom! The EU’s true colours in trade negotiations have been shown.

Anna McMorrin Portrait Anna McMorrin
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Will the hon. Member give way?

Sarah Dines Portrait Miss Dines
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No; there are many Members still to speak before the end of the debate.

The EU has broken international commitments. Germany has broken international commitments. The Irish Republic has broken international commitments. My right hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet (Theresa Villiers) is right when she points out that international law is essentially a political construct—and, goodness me, the EU is very good at it.

Clauses 46 and 47 allow the UK to meet commitments that otherwise would be funded through the EU. They give the UK Government back the power to provide financial assistance for economic development anywhere in the UK. I cannot see how anybody would object to that. That power formerly sat with the EU, and I know who I would prefer to have it: the people who vote in this Chamber. The importance of this power has been demonstrated in UK-wide events such as emergency flood responses—we have heard about Storm Ciara—and the response to covid. However, people like the good people of Derbyshire Dales often get overlooked.

Alex Davies-Jones Portrait Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab)
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Will the hon. Member give way?

Sarah Dines Portrait Miss Dines
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No, I will not; there is not much time.

The dreadful flood in November 2019 along the River Derwent led to the loss of a life. The former high sheriff of Derbyshire, Annie Hall, died in those floods. The powers brought back from the EU under the Bill will enable more money to assist in that sort of area.

Clauses 46 and 47 will enable us to be freer to invest in economic development—for example, to produce the much-awaited bypass in Ashbourne in Derbyshire Dales. We will be able to invest economically at home as we will it. These powers are totally in line with the Conservative Government’s manifesto commitment to level up the regions, from Matlock to Moffat, from the Menai bridge to Moy. We are one Union. There are good British citizens at the moment all around the UK who are in despair at the opposition to this Bill. They want their country back and their powers back. They want the UK to protect their markets—that means all of them—and to bargain hard with the EU. These clauses bring powers home. They bring our sovereignty home. We must back this Bill.

Ben Bradley Portrait Ben Bradley (Mansfield) (Con)
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On 23 June 2016, the British people voted to take back control from European Union. Parliament prevaricated, and for the next four years we had dither and delay—to coin a phrase—elections, and what seemed like millions of votes in this place on the same thing, over and over again, under three Prime Ministers. But here we are, still talking about the same thing, albeit hopefully coming to the end of this period, when we can finally decisively put this issue to bed. On 12 December 2019, the people of Mansfield voted overwhelmingly to get Brexit done, and the rest of the country agreed. We want to be a free trading, independent country that is in charge of our destiny and, vitally, in charge of our own borders. This Bill is vital to ensuring that we can do that.

On Monday, Labour once again sided with the European Union rather than the British people, and rather than backing the people that the party once considered its core voters, who rejected it in droves in December. Labour failed to prioritise the structural integrity of the UK and instead advocated giving away more control to Brussels. Thankfully, we on this side of the House were able to ensure that the Bill was given its Second Reading.

18:30
Anna McMorrin Portrait Anna McMorrin
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If the hon. Member thinks that this Bill is so great, can he explain why the Prime Minister has just announced a climbdown, saying that he will bring it back and try to get his own disgruntled Back Benchers onside?

Ben Bradley Portrait Ben Bradley
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I think it is right that the Prime Minister is willing to have a conversation and be pragmatic in how we approach delivering Brexit. If that means having constructive conversations about this Bill and the best way to take our country forward, that is the right thing to do. Perhaps Opposition Members could learn from those constructive conversations about how we get things done in this place. That might be helpful to them.

This week the Labour party voted against the Bill, which will ensure unfettered trading access within the United Kingdom. A party that is supposedly pro-Union voted to risk our ability to trade freely throughout the UK. This is a strange new world, although by this point we are used to the Opposition having a totally incomprehensible policy on Brexit. They would instead give the European Union a free hand, allowing it to threaten us and negotiate in bad faith, and they think we should do nothing at all.

I have been reading a book this week—amazing, I know. There will be colleagues here who are not convinced that I read books, but I do. It is called “Beyond the Red Wall” and is by a former Labour strategist, Deborah Mattinson. It highlights how the feeling of patriotism and pride felt by residents in my community and the importance of UK sovereignty, and specifically the control of borders, are defining problems that mean that voters in my part of the world do not trust the Labour party anymore. It seems from this week that Labour has learned absolutely nothing from its crushing defeat in December.

It is quite right that this Bill ensures that the people and businesses of Northern Ireland cannot become the political football that the EU would like them to be. If anything could serve to strengthen the feelings of my constituents in Mansfield about wanting to leave this bureaucratic and self-serving institution that is the European Union—bearing in mind that they voted 71% to leave back in 2016—then this is surely it. It must be clear to everybody in this place that the withdrawal agreement rests on reasonable interpretations of what is an acceptable outcome for both sides, and nobody could reasonably suggest that carving up the internal market of the United Kingdom in the way that has been suggested is reasonable.

My constituents have been contacting me this week to express their overwhelming support for the Prime Minister. While the media focus on negative commentary from here in the Westminster bubble, my constituents have been overwhelmingly supportive of the fact that he is putting our best interests as a country first and doing what needs to be done to deliver on his promises. He has my full support in doing that.

I turn to today’s amendments, which focus on the relationship between the UK and devolved Governments. Throughout today’s debate we have heard a number of times from the Opposition Benches about this nonsensical idea of a supposed power grab. It is simply wrong. The powers that are currently in control of the European Union are coming back to the United Kingdom. This is no power grab; it is what Brexit is all about. It is about bringing those powers closer to home, here in the United Kingdom. As my hon. Friend the Member for Moray (Douglas Ross) exposed in the House so effectively a few weeks ago, nobody can actually name a power that is being grabbed from the devolved nations. They do not exist.

Anna McMorrin Portrait Anna McMorrin
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The hon. Gentleman may have missed it, but during my speech I listed all the powers that are being grabbed. Currently the Welsh Government and Parliament currently have powers in an array of areas that the Government are seeking to take away.

Ben Bradley Portrait Ben Bradley
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I did miss the hon. Lady’s speech, but colleagues around me are looking slightly non-plussed as to what those powers were. They do not seem to remember, despite their having been listed. However, I remember very well the debate from a few weeks ago, when my hon. Friend the Member for Moray, the leader of the Scottish Conservatives, had a lengthy conversation with the SNP across the House. It was pretty clear then that nobody could name a single one, and that remains the case as far as I am aware.

This is what my constituents voted for: a strong internal market, which provides the opportunity for the UK Government to invest in all parts of the United Kingdom, and a strong United Kingdom. By tabling these amendments to clauses 46 and 47, and supporting rejoining the European Union, the SNP and Plaid Cymru have become the only nationalist political parties in the world that I have ever heard of that would prefer powers to be held in a different time zone far away from their own country. It is frankly nonsensical.

Of course, the UK Government already invest directly in projects in Scotland; that is not new. The fact that the UK Government are once again committing to funding projects through the shared prosperity fund should be welcomed by everybody, as it has great potential for all corners of the United Kingdom. As my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Tom Hunt) noted, Opposition Members might invest their energies in constructive decision making in this place, using the powers that we hold here and the platform that they have in this House to discuss where that money might best be spent.

Alex Davies-Jones Portrait Alex Davies-Jones
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The hon. Gentleman is talking about money being spent and decisions being made in this House, but I draw his attention to moneys that were pledged by this House to my constituency and Rhondda Cynon Taf, which were decimated by flooding earlier this year. The Welsh Government and Rhondda Cynon Taf are still waiting for that money—more broken promises. All this Bill will be is more broken promises and money not delivered.

Ben Bradley Portrait Ben Bradley
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I cannot pretend that I know a great deal about that.

Ben Bradley Portrait Ben Bradley
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I will let my right hon. Friend intervene.

Alun Cairns Portrait Alun Cairns
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If the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones) was in her place earlier, she would have heard the discussion between me and the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), in which I highlighted, and I think it was accepted, that flooding is a devolved responsibility, and that Wales receives £120 for every £100 that is spent in England. If the hon. Lady votes in favour of this Bill, there will be the capacity for the UK Government to step into her constituency to help with such flooding problems in the future.

Ben Bradley Portrait Ben Bradley
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I thank my right hon. Friend for that intervention. I feel like I am chairing this debate. I will move on.

Sammy Wilson Portrait Sammy Wilson
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The hon. Gentleman is making some very good points about how Government spending directed centrally could help many of the devolved regions. For example, the A75 in Scotland, which is an important route to Northern Ireland, is one of the most unsafe roads in the United Kingdom. The Scottish Government have, for whatever reason, not been able to spend money on it. That is a good example of how money from outside Scotland could be spent on national infrastructure to improve safety and the infrastructure in the area.

Ben Bradley Portrait Ben Bradley
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. As has been discussed at length in this debate, being able to direct funding from the United Kingdom, with our own priorities at heart, rather than from the European Union, gives us the ability to pick out those projects and deliver on the key priorities that will benefit our whole United Kingdom. That is the entire point of what we are trying to achieve.

Alan Brown Portrait Alan Brown
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Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Ben Bradley Portrait Ben Bradley
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I will not give way, because I have literally one sentence left.

Alan Brown Portrait Alan Brown
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Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Ben Bradley Portrait Ben Bradley
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Oh, go on.

Alan Brown Portrait Alan Brown
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Even on the example of the A75, Members should check Hansard; all the way back to the 1940s there were promises in Westminster that the A75 would be upgraded, and it never was. The European funding that Scotland has been able to access has upgraded many roads and bridges and increased connectivity on the islands. Scotland needed that money from Europe because Westminster was not funding the infrastructure that we needed. That is the reality. This Bill will leave us further exposed.

Ben Bradley Portrait Ben Bradley
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention and for pointing out that the EU was kind enough to return some of the money that we sent to it, having taken tax off the top, so that we could spend it in Scotland. The great joy is that we will have all that money now to spend on Scottish projects, and perhaps we can do a better job.

I will draw my remarks to a conclusion. I look forward to once again voting for what my constituents want: to get Brexit done and deliver a prosperous future for our great country as a whole United Kingdom. As this draws to an end and we get towards 31 December, this is our opportunity to push through exactly what we promised to do in that election and deliver on Brexit. The Bill has my full support.

Alex Davies-Jones Portrait Alex Davies-Jones
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Thank you, Mr Evans, for allowing me to speak in this lively debate.  To put it bluntly, and I do not mince my words, the Bill is an absolute disgrace. Earlier this week, the Business Secretary said:

“By protecting our internal market, the Union and its people will be stronger than ever before.”

I fail to see how that will actually be the case. In actual fact, as colleagues across the House have said, this is a power grab, disguised as a Bill. Wales’s Counsel General has said, on behalf of the Welsh Government, that

“the UK Government plans to sacrifice the future of the union by stealing powers from devolved administrations. This bill is an attack on democracy and an affront to the people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland”.

I wholeheartedly agree.

It is clear that the Bill is a weak attempt at ripping up the devolution settlements that are so vital to local communities such as mine in Pontypridd in south Wales. Devolution is vital for those people to have a voice on the issues that matter most to them.

Alun Cairns Portrait Alun Cairns
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I want to try to bottom this out. This is an Administration that passed the Wales Act 2017, which extended significant powers to the Welsh Government. A similar Act was passed for Scotland, extending further powers to Scotland. Leaving the European Union extends further powers still to the devolved Administrations. Can the hon. Lady identify one power that the devolved Administrations now hold that they will not hold when the Bill is passed?

Alex Davies-Jones Portrait Alex Davies-Jones
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I can wholeheartedly say: spending powers. The Government will take that power away from the Welsh Government and away from the Welsh people, and prevent them from spending that money, on which they rightly have the decision to make.

The cherry on top of the world’s worst cake is that the UK Government did not even bother to consult the Welsh Government on the Bill. We are told that the Welsh Government only saw a copy of the Bill at 8 pm the day before it was published—an absolute disgrace. I would consider myself a creative person, but it is a stretch even for me to see how the UK Government can say in good faith that the Bill aims to strengthen the Union. At a time when co-operation between our nations has never been more important, I am frankly flabbergasted by the Government’s shameless attempt to squeeze power and undermine our devolved nations. It is vital that when the UK leaves the EU, we have a system in place that ensures that standards are maintained across all four countries, but there are ways to do that that does not undermine our devolved Administrations. Yet, as we hear in the media today and in the breaking news just now, the Government are preparing to undertake yet another U-turn. I have lost count of the number of U-turns we have seen in recent months, but an additional parliamentary vote on breaking the law will not make the problem go away.

The Bill and the UK Government are making us an international laughing stock. What happened to the Government’s oven-ready Brexit deal? The microwave is waiting, but it is empty. Not only does the Bill mean that the UK Government will have the power to overrule the Welsh Government and centralise power into the hands of a serially incompetent Tory Government in 10 Downing Street, but it will make it harder for the Welsh Government to legislate on issues that matter to people locally in my constituency of Pontypridd. I have had hundreds of emails from constituents concerned about the rolling back of animal welfare and food standards across our country. Does the Minister agree that the Bill, as it stands, could lead to a race to the bottom in the standards of goods produced in the UK?

The Bill will also make it harder for the devolved Administrations to legislate on climate issues, and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Anna McMorrin) has already stated, the Welsh Government are currently proposing a ban on nine different single-use plastic items in Wales—actually making a difference in the climate emergency.

By contrast, the UK Government are proposing just three. If the Bill passes, the mutual recognition principle could mean that Wales would not be able to legislate to ban the sale of the other six items, even though there is clearly high demand and we are in the middle of a climate emergency. The Welsh Government are taking that seriously, but the Bill and the Westminster Tory Government are deliberately making their work harder.

Ultimately, the Bill risks the integrity of the Union and undermines devolution at every opportunity. The Government are showing complete contempt for the people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. I urge Members on the Benches opposite, especially those who represent constituencies in our devolved nations, to ensure that spending provided by the UK Government actually comes forward in the first place and then, when it is in a devolved policy area, would have to be approved by the UK Parliament or allocated by the devolved Administrations. We must stand up for devolution and we must respect the devolution deal. Diolch.

Nigel Evans Portrait The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans)
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Order. Before I call Gavin Robinson, I just want to remind everybody that we are clearly limited in time. The wind-ups will be at around the 7.35 pm mark, because we will want to hear from both Front Benchers and from Alison Thewliss, so I ask Members to show some restraint and not to forget the clauses and amendments we are talking about today.

18:45
Gavin Robinson Portrait Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)
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Thank you, Mr Evans. Of course I will focus the majority of my remarks on amendment 22, but I hope you will permit me a little latitude to work around our amendment. [Interruption.] Well, I hope Mr Evans will; I do not really care about the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) as he is not in the Chair, so I will listen to you, Mr Evans. I say that with all affection and kind regards for the hon. Gentleman.

Chris Bryant Portrait Chris Bryant
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That is a fib.

Gavin Robinson Portrait Gavin Robinson
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is, no doubt about it.

I have been here for the guts of four hours during this debate, which has been going for four hours and 45 minutes, and at times I felt I had entered a parallel universe. For Government Members, this Bill is an important and necessary step: it is a safety net; it respects the internal market of the UK; and it is something prudent and expedient to do in the circumstances in which we find ourselves in the current negotiations. From Opposition Members I hear that it is the most egregious and outrageous power grab, driving a coach and horses through everywhere—England, Scotland and Wales. This coach and horses is very tired. Yet I find it difficult to get Members on both sides to focus on some of the fundamentals that affect us in Northern Ireland.

I have heard Members from across the Chamber say in all sincerity that they believe there are elements in this Bill that protect the single market of the United Kingdom, that talk about the customs union of the UK. Let us be under no illusion: the single market of the UK, as we know it, was gifted away at the time this House passed the withdrawal agreement and the associated Northern Ireland protocol. Let us reflect on the financial assistance provisions in this Bill and clause 46 in particular. When I raise this with the Government, they say clearly that this is a power that extends right throughout the UK. That in itself is true, but there is no recognition in this debate, save in the contribution from my right hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), that that unrestricted power to offer financial assistance is hugely curtailed. It is curtailed by article 10 of the Northern Ireland protocol associated with the withdrawal agreement.

Article 10 says that we in Northern Ireland remain under the single market regime of the EU; that the state aid rules, no matter what this financial assistance provision says, will apply to Northern Ireland; and that any decision on financial assistance from this Government to businesses in Northern Ireland that fall within the EU state aid rules will not only be subject to challenge by EU member states, but will bring with it the full jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. I struggle when I hear Members in this House say that this Bill protects the integrity of the UK single market—it does not. That is why I ask that people sincerely look at amendment 22, because it would allow the people of Northern Ireland to benefit and would mean that the provisions on direct and indirect discrimination actually mean something to businesses in Northern Ireland. We will spend a lot of time on Monday considering the things we can do that will appropriately protect businesses in Northern Ireland to trade with their biggest market in Great Britain, but we also need Members of this House to consider the implications of the regime passed at the start of this year, the restrictions that there will be on trade from GB to NI, and the costs associated with the regimes in place through GB and NI. I know that those negotiations have not concluded and that we do not have a full picture of how that will be, but here we are, three and a half months from the end of the transition period, and yet businesses in Northern Ireland have no clarity as to how they are going to trade with their main market.

I struggle fundamentally with the arguments advanced by some Members about the Good Friday agreement. I listened very carefully to the contributions of the hon. Members for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) and for Belfast South (Claire Hanna), neither of whom are here now, and I make no criticism of that at this stage. Throughout the course of Brexit, there have been claims ad nauseam—in this Chamber, within the Northern Ireland political context, in the United States of America, which has been referred to today, and elsewhere—that taking sovereign decisions within a political entity is in some way injurious to peace in Northern Ireland. That is wrong.

Stuart Anderson Portrait Stuart Anderson
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The hon. Gentleman speaks very wisely. I have listened to the debates this week. I served for 18 months in Northern Ireland during the troubles. My regiment, the Royal Green Jackets, probably lost more than any other regiment throughout the whole process. To use this as a political football is an offence to me and every veteran around the country. It is a tagline that has been thrown away and I think will land very badly.

Gavin Robinson Portrait Gavin Robinson
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I have great regard for him. We served on the Defence Committee together. I commend him for his service to this country and to our Province of Northern Ireland.

The arguments advanced are fundamentally wrong. They never point to who is going to engage in violence. They never condemn the threat of violence that would frustrate a legitimate political decision being made—they never reach that far. They never point to which part of the Belfast agreement they take issue with. They say, “This drives a coach and horses through the Belfast agreement”—you will hear it and read it in Hansard day in, day out. I say, show me the clause—show me the provision that it breaches. When we ask that question, then we get to the next stage—“Ah, but it is the spirit of the Belfast agreement that you are interfering with.”

I caution Members, particularly those who are not from Northern Ireland and who want to be saying and doing the right thing, and advocating the right position, but perhaps do not have the full picture: when you hear that argument related to European Union matters and to Brexit issues in this Bill, you are hearing it through a one-dimensional prism. I am not saying that nationalists are not entitled to their nationalism just as I am entitled to my Unionism—we are all entitled to our perspectives—but they present this injury to the Belfast agreement in a way that suggests it is a one-dimensional document. They suggest that the only concern within the fragility of peace in Northern Ireland is the satisfaction of those who look to Dublin—those who have an aspiration of unity in the island of Ireland—without reflecting on the fact that the document itself is a balance that brings communities together and allows them to co-operate with one another. And that has to include Unionism too. It has to include Unionists in Northern Ireland who look to London and believe that the Union is best for us all. For as long as we hear and listen to those arguments, never proven, and for as long as we say, “I’m sorry, we can’t make a legitimate political decision because of the fear—the fantasy—of something that may go wrong in future”, we see this only through the prism of one perspective, and we will end up making the wrong choice.

I say that not to attack Members, who are entitled to their own views, but to say careful and look a bit beyond some of the arguments. This Bill does not protect the internal market of the United Kingdom. It is a very good move for those who are concerned about ECJ application and state aid rules affecting businesses in GB. That is the intended purpose of clause 46 and some of the other clauses around state aid. There is nothing in clause 46 or clause 47 without our amendment, or indeed anything, that turns back the clock on the agreements around state aid rules of the European Union applying to Northern Ireland, and nor will there be. That is not an aspiration of the Government. The Government’s perspective is that those issues have been resolved.

In speaking to amendment 22, which I do not believe will be pushed to a vote, I hope that Members who are present this evening and respectfully listening to what I have to say will be here on Monday, when we consider and thoughtfully focus on the Northern Ireland aspects of trade from GB to NI and NI to GB. Those are two different propositions because of the protocol. They are fundamentally different. When we talk about access to the UK’s single market, we are only talking about selling to GB, not buying from it.

I ask that, over the next number of days, Members reflect on some of those issues and that when we meet on Monday to consider the Northern Ireland implications of the Bill and the wider underpinning agreements that already exist and are not intended to change, they reflect on the amendments that we put forward and proceed on that basis.

Ruth Cadbury Portrait Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I rise to support the amendments standing in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), who I must say made an impressive opening speech on Monday. Those of us elected in 2015 are old enough to remember when we were told we would get chaos if he was elected Prime Minister. As I look at the current Government, the word “chaos” feels like an understatement.

The seat I represent is in west London, but I know that many of my constituents care deeply about the Union of the four nations of the UK, the UK’s reputation and the credibility of the UK and the rule of law. The debate is not about whether people support or oppose Brexit. Saying that, I voted against triggering article 50 back in 2017, because I knew that it would take time to sort out the nuts and bolts of Brexit and that we had a long way to go, but we now have only three months until we leave the EU single market. As we can see from the mess in this Bill, there is still an awful long way to go. That hits business, it hits people and it hits our nations.

The debate is, however, about how our Government approach devolution and our future relations with the devolved nations, as well as our current and future trade partners. That approach is, in my view, deeply flawed. The Bill is an act of self-destruction in the middle of a destructive pandemic. In the clauses we are discussing today, we see powers and money pulled away from the devolved nations while we are all caught up in a race to the bottom on standards.

The Government’s White Paper claims that they will legislate in a way that “respects the devolution settlement”. However, as many have already said in the debate, the Bill does the exact opposite. With due respect to the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson), I am sorry—I disagree. The Bill leads to a significant recentralisation of power away from the devolved Administrations and back to Whitehall, undermining so many of the very many benefits and the core principles of devolution.

Jonathan Gullis Portrait Jonathan Gullis
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am going to try asking this question, as a number of my hon. Friends have. Which specific powers that the Welsh Government and the Scottish Government already have are being completely taken away? Clause 47 says “to provide financial assistance”. I do not understand how “assistance” means completely taking power away. “Assistance” means to assist.

Ruth Cadbury Portrait Ruth Cadbury
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am happy to respond to the hon. Member. Clause 46 specifically says:

“A Minister of the Crown may, out of money provided by Parliament, provide financial assistance to any person… or in connection with, any of the following purposes”.

And so it goes on. The power is all in a Minister. That is taking power away from the devolved Governments.

We know that this is a Government who enjoy hoarding power and consistently ignore devolved government, whether it is local councils, city hall or devolved Governments. “Centralisation, centralisation, centralisation” is the mantra from this Government, and it has been since 2010.

19:00
The Bill hoards financial assistance for our devolved nations back to the centre, and I support the amendments to clause 47 in the name of Her Majesty’s Opposition. When financial assistance is provided in areas covered by a devolved Administration, we must work with the devolved Administrations. We cannot and should not see yet another power grab away from our devolved Governments.
Jonathan Gullis Portrait Jonathan Gullis
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Will the hon. Member give way?

Ruth Cadbury Portrait Ruth Cadbury
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will not, because time is short, and I have already given way once.

A central plank of our devolution settlement has been the right of devolved areas to set their own priorities, yet the Bill undermines that by giving Ministers the power to provide funding over a wide range of issues, from culture to sport and economic development. Many voters in red wall seats changed their allegiance at the election, and according to the polling, many of them did so because they felt divorced from Westminster and Whitehall. That is true of people in the devolved countries. In Scotland and Northern Ireland, they voted strongly away from this Government and also away from Brexit in the referendum.

These powers will only make people in the UK feel further divorced from decision making that affects their lives, on issues such as culture, sport and economic development. The explanatory notes to the Bill even accept that, saying that these powers

“fall within wholly or partly devolved areas”.

Members need not take my word for it. The Welsh Government have called this Bill

“an attack on democracy and an affront to the people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, who have voted in favour of devolution on numerous occasions.”

Ruth Cadbury Portrait Ruth Cadbury
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will not, because other Members want to speak.

Finally, I want to address state aid. We have witnessed a rather interesting piece of spin from the Government and their supporters. One of the central aims of the Bill—indeed, one of the central reasons why the Government are embarking on breaking international law—is to overrule the provisions on state aid rules that apply in Northern Ireland. Let us not forget that the Government agreed to those provisions in their so-called oven-ready deal.

What is even more concerning is that, while the UK was an EU member, successive Conservative Governments had an almost allergic attitude to state aid. In 2017, France spent almost twice as much as the UK on state aid, and Germany spent a staggering four times as much, so why the sudden focus on state aid? The Conservatives have never been very interested in it, to the detriment of UK businesses, innovation and enterprise. The Government know that, if they have genuine and sincere problems with state aid, that is exactly what the Joint Committee exists for. Once again, we see the Government using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Frankly, the buck should stop with the Prime Minister. He knows the damage that this Bill would do to the Union, to the UK’s international reputation and to the rule of law. This Bill sets up confrontation with the EU. Some 40% of our international trade is with EU countries, and it sets up a stand-off with the courts. It is an attack on the rule of law, and it undermines the UK’s commitment to the rules-based international order.

Patricia Gibson Portrait Patricia Gibson
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I am delighted to participate in the debate, and I am going to do something unusual: I am going to talk about clauses 46 and 47, which most Government Members have refused to do. I will begin by saying that I support amendment 33 from the Scottish National party.

We are witnessing in this Bill a smash and grab on Scotland’s powers. Far from the much-touted “powerhouse Parliament”, we have clause 48, a clause that sees the UK Government reserving the devolved policy of state aid, and clause 47, which sees powers given to the UK Ministers in devolved areas. [Interruption.] I will say that again, because the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan Gullis) obviously does not understand it—I know that because I saw him questioning people earlier. Clause 46 sees powers given to UK Ministers in devolved areas—I will speak slowly so he understands—such as infrastructure, economic development, public spending, culture, sport, education and training. The list goes on.

Jonathan Gullis Portrait Jonathan Gullis
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Will the hon. Lady give way?

Patricia Gibson Portrait Patricia Gibson
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No, I will not. I was trying to educate the hon. Gentleman a wee bit. I am always happy to clear up confusion about what devolution means, because there is a clear lack of knowledge about it.

What we are seeing in this legislation is an underhand, sleekit, sleight of hand whereby Scots, who for decades have rejected the Tories, are being put in their box, with powers stripped from their Parliament—a Parliament for which the case was hard fought, and won in the teeth of vociferous Tory opposition—and taken back to Westminster. We all know that the Scottish Parliament was established for Scots to have some say in their own affairs; to allow Scotland to do things differently, instead of every single aspect of our lives being governed by a Tory Government who have won the support of few Scots and the hearts of even fewer.

After 21 years, the Tories have run out of patience with us pesky Scots and they are using legislative procedures, hellbent on bringing to heel the nation that continues to reject them. In the Bill, Scotland will now be denied the choice to use her Parliament to do things differently—to do things according to our values, according to our beliefs. The very essence of devolution is being undermined, diluted and constrained, and in the process opposition to this arrogant madness has united whole swathes of Scottish society—our people, civic society, our educational institutions, our farming communities and our trade unions.

We in Scotland rejected these measures in the Scottish Parliament last month, overwhelmingly. Tory Members do not seem to understand that for Scotland’s Parliament not to have control over its own spending priorities is an affront to the democratic will of the sovereign people of Scotland.

The fact that the plans are set out in these clauses means that democratically elected MSPs and members of the Scottish Government can be overlooked, bypassed and marginalised when it comes to spending decisions, and the Bill will jeopardise the current Barnett funding formula. For the Tories, though, it will certainly solve the problem identified by Labour’s Baron Foulkes of Cumnock, who—I paraphrase—said, “Scotland is doing things better than in England” and

“they are doing it deliberately.”

This mean-spirited, grubby, underhand, squalid, sweaty-handed power grab is an attempt to stop just that—Scotland doing things better, and doing them better deliberately. In short, the Bill grabs power from the Scottish Parliament.

In answer to the question of what powers will be lost, the Bill could even allow Westminster to interfere on devolved taxation powers, threatening schemes such as the small business bonus.

The Sewel convention says that the UK Parliament would “not normally” legislate in respect of devolved matters without the consent of the devolved Parliaments, and the devolution settlement is clear: what is not reserved is devolved. For this Tory Government to undermine the devolution settlement by refusing to recognise the correct vehicle for delivery for such programmes designed to replace EU funding, is to ride a coach and horses through it. Spending decisions on key infrastructure projects, such as social objectives, will be taken out of the hands of the Scottish Parliament and could be completely out of step with the social and public policy of Scotland’s elected Government, excluding important players in Scotland’s civic society.

What if the UK Government impose on Scotland a project that goes against the democratic wishes or priorities of the Scottish Parliament? What will happen? How will such disputes be resolved? I think we know where the power grab takes us, in answer to that question. I can barely believe the blatant insult of this UK Government trying to portray the dismantling of the powers of the Scottish Parliament as a power surge. They should get a grip of themselves. Who on earth do they think that they are fooling? Scots are not daft. We can see the bluff and the bluster and the grubby way that this Government do politics. We have waited too long for our own Parliament to see it dismantled by a party that has been rejected by Scotland again and again and, for the record, has been rejected because it simply does not understand Scotland.

Jerome Mayhew Portrait Jerome Mayhew
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I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way—it shows that perseverance is rewarded eventually. She has made reference to the devolution settlement, so I draw her attention to Donald Dewar’s 1997 White Paper, “Scotland’s Parliament”, where it says:

“Westminster will continue to be responsible for those areas of policy best run on a United Kingdom basis.”

It goes on:

“By preserving the integrity of the United Kingdom, the Union secures for its people participation in an economic unit, which benefits business, provides access to wider markets and investment and increases prosperity to all.”

What is wrong with that?

Patricia Gibson Portrait Patricia Gibson
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What the hon. Gentleman does again, as, to be fair to him, many of his colleagues have done, is demonstrate that he does not understand devolution. There is nothing to prevent common frameworks. The SNP Government have never objected to that, but what the Government are doing with this Bill is deliberately removing powers from the Scottish Parliament, preventing the Scottish Government from setting their own priorities, so common frameworks are not the issue.

There is a dawning realisation that up with this we in Scotland need not put. This Government know that they will never get legislative consent from the Scottish Parliament for this Bill. If the Tories want to win Scotland, if they want to run Scotland, then they really should try winning an election. The grubby tactics being used in this Bill to emasculate our national Parliament will simply not work. The more they try to constrain Scotland’s democratic rights, the more the ties that bind us to the rest of the UK loosen, so keep talking. The Scottish people are sovereign. Clauses 46 and 47 are merely footnotes on the journey to Scotland’s independence. All this Government are doing with their incompetence and bluster is moving us along our way to independence. They are overplaying their hand and putting the final nails in the Unionist coffin. For that at least, Scotland can be grateful.

Gerald Jones Portrait Gerald Jones
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May I state at the outset that I am extremely proud to be Welsh—that is no secret—but I am also almost equally proud to be British? I have never prescribed to the nationalists’ view that we have to choose one over the other. I want to live in a strong Wales, with a vibrant, dynamic and forward-thinking Welsh Government, but I also want Wales to be a strong, active and equal part of the United Kingdom—[Interruption.] Do you mind? I want it to have a healthy respect for devolution. That is why I am so concerned about the damage that this Government will do to the future of the Union by pushing ahead with this Bill, not to mention the damage that they have already done and will continue to do to Britain’s reputation and standing in the world.

As we know, the Prime Minister negotiated and signed an agreement with the EU and, just a few months later, is saying that it contains serious problems that could break up our country. Instead of working with the EU to try to find a way forward, this Government are introducing legislation that knowingly and openly breaks international law and will frustrate the process of getting a deal.

The UK’s long-standing reputation has been built on our values and the fact that we have long stood up for the rule of law, and this Prime Minister and Government want to risk all that and throw it away by disregarding an international treaty that the Prime Minister personally negotiated and signed up to. This is not just wrong but completely incompetent, and his behaviour will do us no favours around the world and will not help us to negotiate new trade deals with other countries. We have only to listen to the comments from the US Democrats in the past few days to know that.

It is clear that there needs to be a strong internal market within the UK to enable businesses across all our four nations of the UK to trade freely, which will be vital for the economy and shared prosperity.

19:15
Daniel Kawczynski Portrait Daniel Kawczynski
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Of course, all of us in this House respect the devolution process and Welsh decision-making in Cardiff, but does the hon. Gentleman accept for a moment that, as Cardiff and London increasingly diverge, for border communities such as mine with businesses on both sides of the border there are additional problems and risk as a result of that increasing divergence between our two capitals?

Gerald Jones Portrait Gerald Jones
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I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments, but it is certainly clear to me from comments I have heard from the Government side of the Chamber that lots of people do not understand devolution. Devolution is about giving powers to those devolved nations to make the decisions for themselves, and that is where some Government Members struggle.

In Wales, the Welsh Government have, as we have heard, stated that the Bill is an attack on democracy and an affront to the people of Wales, not to mention Scotland and Northern Ireland, who have voted in favour of devolution on numerous occasions. As we have heard, one of the Conservatives’ long-standing Senedd Members has resigned as shadow Counsel General over the Bill, commenting that:

“The publication today of the Internal Market Bill has done nothing to lessen my anxieties about the dangers facing our 313-year-old Union. Indeed they have been gravely aggravated by the decisions made in the last few days by the Prime Minister.”

That is from a well-respected Member in the Welsh Senedd, and of course we have heard very clear concerns from three former Conservative Prime Ministers and two former Labour ones—in fact from all living Prime Ministers.

One of the foundations of the devolution delivered by the Labour Government for Wales and Scotland in 1997 and developed over the past 20 years has been the right of devolved nations to set their own priorities on key spending areas. The explanatory notes to the Bill state:

“Part 6 grants power to a UK Minister of the Crown to provide funding across…economic development, infrastructure, culture, sporting activities, and international educational and training activities and exchanges.”

Of course, I welcome any additional funding or assistance that would benefit Wales and my constituents. However, it is not for the UK Government to play Father Christmas and pull those pet projects out of the air. Any additional funding should be delivered by devolved Governments in line with what has been developed over the past 20 years, in a strategic way involving local authorities and local stakeholders. If the Government have their way, spending decisions previously made in Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast will now be made in London, and that flies in the face of devolution.

The Government argue that this Bill strengthens the Union on the grounds that it will give the UK Government new powers to spend across all four nations, but I believe that it will have exactly the opposite effect. A Government official reportedly told Politico that the spending powers would be used sparingly but demonstrated that the

“devolve and forget approach of the Blair/Brown years”

was over. But this Bill provides a risk that the UK Government will now be able to undermine the spending decisions and policy priorities of devolved Administrations.

It is no accident that we have yet to receive clarity on the UK shared prosperity fund, after almost two years of waiting. The Government stated that the consultation should have been held in 2018 and that Wales would not lose a penny compared with what we have received until now from the UK structural funds. That funding was based on genuine need, not on patronage or favour. It is essential that any funding Wales now receives is allocated in a similar way, involving the Welsh Government and local authorities in Wales in determining and delivering on local priorities.

On Second Reading, I supported the reasoned amendment tabled by my hon. and right hon. Friends declining to give the Bill a Second Reading and I voted against the Bill. I will continue to oppose this Bill until the Prime Minister and the Government reconsider and come up with a way to ensure that the devolved settlement is preserved and the Union is intact.

The Government must negotiate in good faith with the EU and devolved nations, instead of creating division and discord that puts getting a deal at risk. So my message to the Prime Minister is this: please get back around the table and negotiate properly and stop posturing. We do not have time for distractions like this when a deal is on the line. We need leadership from the Prime Minister, not theatrics.

Sally-Ann Hart Portrait Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con)
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The United Kingdom of England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales is the most successful union of nations the world has known. The Bill will ensure that we continue to thrive as a United Kingdom and that unfettered trade across our four nations continues.

I oppose the Opposition amendments to clauses 46 and 47, although I hear the reasoned speech from my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson). It is essential that the UK Government have powers to provide financial assistance for economic development throughout the UK, as has been vital during coronavirus and our recovery from the pandemic. The existing clauses will help the Government to deliver on our commitments to replace EU funding programmes, including by delivering a shared prosperity fund to replace the bureaucratic EU structural funds.

The clauses are consistent with the Government’s levelling-up agenda throughout the whole UK. They better position England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales to take advantage of opportunities for future growth and develop our place in the world as a united and independent nation. Our nations—all of them—require investment in and support for our communities, businesses, infrastructure, sport, education and training, among many other policy areas. The Bill will create new opportunities for the Government to do that.

Sally-Ann Hart Portrait Sally-Ann Hart
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I will not.

By strengthening our internal market, our nations’ economies will be protected. Take Scotland, for example: 60% of Scottish exports, worth more than £50 billion per year, go to other parts of the United Kingdom. The Bill will mean more powers for all parts of the United Kingdom and ensure that businesses can continue to trade across our country, avoiding new burdens and barriers, protecting jobs and supporting our recovery from coronavirus.

The British public want us to get on with delivering Brexit and it is our responsibility to do so.

Kirsten Oswald Portrait Kirsten Oswald
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Will the hon. Lady give way?

Sally-Ann Hart Portrait Sally-Ann Hart
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

No.

Faced with a choice of supporting our Union or the European Union, I know whose side I am on; do you?

Chris Bryant Portrait Chris Bryant
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There is nothing like a dame, Dame Rosie.

This debate today! I remember sitting in the theatre a few years ago—do you remember the theatre?—and there was a couple in front of me who had had a terrible row. The woman turned to the man and said, just as the curtain was coming up, “The worst of it is that you’re so bloody ‘paytronising’.” and he kissed her on the forehead and said, “It’s ‘patronising’, dear.” If I am honest, I feel we have all patronised each other to death today. Actually, there are lots of areas where there could be some common ground, if we chose to try to find it, which is what I shall try to do in my speech.

Let me start with principles, because they should inform all the legislation that we support. The first principle must surely be—I say this as a proud socialist; I have never run away from the word “socialist”, even when Tony, whom I much admired, was leader of the Labour party—that any country performs best when it is most equal. When it is most equal, a country is happier, more successful economically and a better country to live in.

Secondly, decisions about policies and, for that matter, about funding are best made closest to the people that they most directly affect. I was a Government Minister for around 20 minutes, and my experience was that it is all very well coming up with all these grand ideas, sitting in an office in Westminster, but if they cannot be delivered because they do not fit alongside other policies, is just a waste of time—someone would just be wasting their own energy dreaming up legislation, and although they might buff their fingernails at the end of the day, they would not have actually got their hands dirty and achieved anything.

Thirdly, no single policy area stands alone. I have tried to do a lot of work on acquired brain injury over the past few years; it is an issue that affects every single Government Department—the Ministry of Defence, the Department for Work and Pensions, the Department of Health and Social Care, the Ministry of Justice and so many other policy areas, including the Treasury, of course. My experience is that unless we manage to devise policies that fit with other policies, we are not going to achieve what we could possibly achieve. Perhaps that is just because I believe that we achieve far more by our common endeavour than we do by going it alone.

All that is why I am afraid to say to the people with whom I am often in the same Lobby, but not so much this evening, that I believe in the Union. I believe that Wales is stronger in the Union and—I hate to say this to the people I disagree with in many ways—but I am also still a Unionist when it comes to the European Union. I know that I am not meant to raise that decision anymore, and that that battle is meant to be done, but—[Interruption.] Yes, I did not get the memo, but I will doubtless be sent it later.

I say all these things because I represent one of the poorest constituencies in the UK, one of the poorest constituencies in Wales and one of the poorest constituencies in the whole European Union. I was proud when we kept on getting structural funds in Wales. One of the things that I thought was clever about structural funds was that the funding had to be matched. It always had to sit alongside decisions made locally and money that was raised locally, so there was a degree of devolved decision in there.

I hate to say this, Dame Rosie, but I have a list of things that the Rhonda needs. We need to finish the Rhondda Fach relief road. I would like to improve the railway so that people can get into work much quicker, with bigger trains and proper toilets. I would like to unblock Stag Square in Treorchy and, for that matter, the roundabout outside Asda. I would like to rebuild the powerhouse in Tonypandy, which is falling apart. I would like proper cycle routes up both valleys. I would like a fully funded youth service which, unfortunately, has been cut in pretty much every part of the UK over the past 10 years.

This year has been—there is a four-letter word for it, but I am not allowed to use it—not very good in the Rhondda. We have had terrible flooding. A quarter of all the floods in the whole of the UK were just in my constituency, and my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones) has experienced similar. One of the culverts will cost £300,000 to be mended, and about £140 million-worth of work needs to be done to ensure that people’s homes are safe. I do not think that that should be met within the normal envelope of the Barnett formula, because I think that is part of us being a Union of four nations. I have repeatedly asked the Prime Minister for that money, and the Prime Minister has actually said at the Dispatch Box that we will get it, but it has not come and, of course, that makes me worried, because if Rhondda Cynon Taff has to do that work and has to find the money from elsewhere, there is a real danger that lots of other budgets will be slashed to the bone, and, if I am honest, things are already pretty threadbare—if I am not mixing my metaphors.

The one issue that I have had rows with the former Welsh Secretary about—he is not here—is that Wales and many mining constituencies across the UK have former coal tips. They are the responsibility of the Coal Authority and, of course, the problems that stem from them today predate devolution, because nearly all of them were closed long before devolution came to pass—certainly all the ones in the Rhondda. I gather that the Coal Authority, which is an agency of the Westminster Government under the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, has produced a new report, or is in the process of doing so, which is likely to suggest that a lot of those tips need a lot of investment to be made safe.

Just like those in Nottingham or Durham or wherever else in the UK, including in Scotland for that matter, I think that the coal tips in the Rhondda are a UK responsibility—a moral responsibility, even if not a legal responsibility—and we need to ensure that they are safe. A tip in Tylorstown collapsed in the floods earlier this year, and 60,000 tonnes of material needs to be moved, which is a phenomenal job of work for a relatively small local authority to undertake. It is doing it because it has to be done, otherwise there is a real danger of further slippage if there is much more serious flooding later this year. However, we still have not had the guarantee from the Westminster Government that the £1.2 million, which would seem a tiny amount to most people, will come our way.

Now, I actually think that clause 46 is both unnecessary and impotent. It is unnecessary because the Government could do every single thing in clause 46 without it. I do not think it is needed at all, but, equally importantly, I think it is impotent. Let us say for the sake of argument that the Government decided, having heard my pleas for a youth service in the Rhondda and to do up the powerhouse in Tonypandy, that they were going to spend money on a brand-new youth service facility in Tonypandy in the powerhouse. “Hurrah!”, I would go. They would not be able to do it without the local authority agreeing to it because they would have to get planning permission and work with the transport facilities. They would have to make sure that people were available to work in it and that it was sustainable, so it would be impossible to implement that simply on the basis of clause 46. I say gently to some of my colleagues that I think they have slightly over-egged the argument that suddenly Westminster will descend and plant things in constituencies, because I do not think it will be able to. I think this is very poorly drafted legislation, as it happens.

19:30
My final point is that I think there would be a better process available to make sure that we bind together—
Alan Brown Portrait Alan Brown
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Will the hon. Member give way?

Chris Bryant Portrait Chris Bryant
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I know that the hon. Member has spoken a bit. I would normally give way, but I am not going to on this occasion.

There would be a better process available. We have been waiting for a very long time for the shared prosperity fund structure to be announced. That should have been here long before we got to this point. I have a terrible feeling that what the Government will introduce is something that will either try to bypass the Welsh Government or the Scottish Government, or will try to set up a competition between different local authorities. I do not think that that will mean that the money goes where it is most needed and where it can be most effective. I urge the Government to think hard about introducing a shared prosperity fund and the outline of that as soon as possible.

Of course, money should be spent in relation to need—it is a very old principle for all of us Opposition Members: from each according to his ability, to each according to his or her need—and that is all I really want. I am never going to say no to money for the Rhondda. I will constantly ask for it and I am very hopeful that the Minister, when she answers, is going to say, “Yes, Chris—or yes, Dame Rosie, Chris can have his money for the flooding, the tips and the youth service.” Incidentally, as chair of the Rhondda arts festival in Treorchy, RAFT, I declare my interest—I have no financial interest; I am not remunerated for it. We would also quite like some money for that as well.

Aaron Bell Portrait Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con)
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It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) and I thank him for his courtesy in rejecting an intervention and giving me and the people of Newcastle-under-Lyme a few moments at the end of this debate.

This debate is focused on part 6 and I believe that the commitments that we are making demonstrate the seriousness of the Government’s intent to deliver on the promises of the Vote Leave campaign. We will match what happened with the EU structural funds in each home nation through the new UK shared prosperity fund, and we will continue to co-operate across the UK to overcome coronavirus together. Coronavirus has demonstrated the true value of the Union, with the devolved Governments working together with Westminster to help people and businesses through the pandemic. The Bill will facilitate more of that joint working to the benefit of everyone across the UK.

We have heard a lot today and yesterday about power grabs. If there is a power grab, it is from Brussels, because having won our independence referendum, we are quite rightly restoring the powers that used to reside in this place. The UK’s internal market is centuries old and has never needed to be recognised in statute in this way before. However, that is necessary now to provide legal certainty to businesses and consumers across all four home nations as we exit the internal market of the EU.

This Bill and these clauses are needed to protect jobs and prosperity across the United Kingdom and to prevent new burdens and new barriers restricting the historical unfettered right to trade. In fact, it is SNP Members who are trying to grab more and new powers for the Scottish Government through these amendments. At the time of the Scotland Act 1998, which created the Scottish Parliament, it was never envisaged that the devolved Assemblies would be endowed with the powers that they now seek. All the talk we have heard of the Sewel convention and the rest of it is, therefore, anachronistic, because the convention was after the fact of our being in the internal market. We are restoring the situation that existed prior to the EU. These powers were never promised to Scotland at the time, and we have heard many arguments about that this evening. I understand why they seek these powers—they know they are a necessary part of independence—but I remind them that the Scottish people have already had their say on that. Indeed, I think that this is once again an attempt by the SNP, regrettably, to disrupt the Bills that seek to legislate in the national interest and make this debate about independence, which is a pity.

To wrap up, I will quote my right hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb), who spoke earlier: when did devolution become about stopping this place from acting in the best interests of the whole UK? This is the right place. Westminster has Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish representation in it. This is the right forum for these discussions and these issues. I commend these clauses to the House and urge hon. Members to reject the Opposition amendments this evening.

Paul Blomfield Portrait Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)
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I rise both to reflect on today’s debate and speak to amendments 14, 15 and 16, which are tabled in my name and those of my hon. and right hon. Friends. In doing so, I hope to strike a similar tone to my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), because our amendments, quite contrary to some of the things suggested about them, are intended to strengthen the Bill. That is because we want a successful internal market for all four nations of the UK when we leave the transition on 31 December, just as we want the Prime Minister to deliver the oven-ready deal with the EU that he promised the British people in December, with the promise of tariff-free and barrier-free trade.

For those who have suggested otherwise, we are a party of the Union; we simply think that the best way of protecting the Union is by respecting the devolution settlement. That is what our amendments seek to do, by correcting two fundamental flaws in the Bill as drafted: the way that it gives the Government powers to dish out financial assistance in whatever way they like, with no policy framework to provide accountability; and the way that it gives powers to the centre at the expense of the devolved Administrations, while marginalising local authorities and local communities in England, too.

Clause 46 sets out the powers being given to Ministers for the disbursement of funds in an extraordinary range of areas—economic development; sports and cultural activities, projects, events and infrastructure; education and training activities and infrastructure; capital investment in water, electricity, gas, telecommunications, sewerage, railways, roads, transport, health, prisons, courts and housing. These are massive potential spending powers, yet we have no details of how they will be exercised, allowing Ministers to award financial assistance in any way, and to anyone, they like.

These powers go further than replacing EU structural funds, but the need to replace them was the starting point for this part of the Bill. EU structural funds were of huge importance to many parts of the UK, acting as a redistributive mechanism and taking from the rich and giving to the poor, based on the principle of levelling up—long before the Government had ever stumbled across the idea, and forgetting the role of their predecessors in making sure that so many parts of our country were left behind. Structural funds led to real social and economic development, improving opportunities in areas that were previously held back. Crucially, the priorities were set locally: money was drawn down for use within the agreed criteria of the funds, which were primarily focused on need, but set by those engaged in developing the programmes at a local level.

Dame Rosie, you and I both saw the benefits of structural funds in South Yorkshire after our coal and steel industries were decimated by Margaret Thatcher. Objective 1 funding over seven years helped to grow our economy by over 8%, from the advanced manufacturing park to community skills projects, supporting business growth and creating new jobs. Crucially, all those projects were conceived, planned and delivered locally.

How EU structural funding is to be replaced has been an important issue since we took the decision to leave the European Union. The right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb), in the smaller part of his contribution earlier, identified the problem here. Colleagues on both sides of the House have been pressing the Government for answers on how the funds will be disbursed. The response was: “We’re going to have a shared prosperity fund”, but to this day there has been no detail on how it will work. The Government promised a consultation as early as 2017, in the Conservative party manifesto. They proclaimed that they would “consult widely” so that the fund would be

“targeted where it is needed most.”

Nothing happened. Under pressure, there were some engagement events to “seek views”, but they stopped in the middle of last year. There has not been a single engagement event or consultation event since this Prime Minister took office.

The Conservatives’ 2019 manifesto says of leaving the EU that

“we can take back control of the money that was being channelled via its Structural Funds.”

But who do they mean by “we”? Ministers, without reference to anyone? It is no surprise that Members have talked about this being an open door to pork barrel politics. Funding for skills training, bus stations, sports events and theatres, directed to meet the political needs of the Conservative party. More contracts, perhaps, to party donors and friends—or perhaps the latest project from Dominic Cummings and his team of what he describes as “weirdos and misfits”.

Amendment 14 should reassure Members on both sides of the House, because it simply proposes what the Government promised: a clear policy framework for the distribution of funds. We are talking about very large sums of money. The UK would have received £13 billion over the next seven years from structural funds. The Government have pledged to match that, but how it is spent matters to everyone in this House and those we represent. Parliament must agree it. Amendment 14 would empower us to do that, and we should do so after comprehensive engagement with the devolved Administrations, local authorities, elected Mayors and those who speak for our communities.

There are other fears about the impact of the Bill on the devolution settlement—fears that amendments 15 and 16 seek to address. As others have explained, the Bill allows for money currently spent in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland through the devolved Administrations to be directed from the centre. Given how this Government operate, there are real fears that existing funds to those Administrations could be top-sliced and redirected for spending in those nations by UK Ministers. The powers handed to Ministers through part 6 of the Bill could be used to serve their political agenda and to undermine the devolved Administrations.

Ben Lake Portrait Ben Lake
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am very interested in amendments 14 to 16. Will the hon. Gentleman clarify a little further the role that he envisages the devolved Governments playing in the formulation of the policy frameworks that he has just referred to?

Paul Blomfield Portrait Paul Blomfield
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am happy to take that point, because I would have imagined that the consultation that the Government promised but have failed to deliver would have at its heart real engagement with the devolved Administration, but also with local authorities across the nations of the UK and with our elected Mayors. I would have imagined that all those critical stakeholders would shape the framework, which we as a Parliament could then agree.

Amendments 15 and 16 would provide transparency and protect the decision-making powers of the Senedd, Holyrood and Stormont by making clear that, in relation to all the areas of spending set out in clause 46, funding is allocated to the devolved Administrations, and that all financial assistance related to devolved matters is delivered through the devolved Administrations. That would prevent the Bill from creating a back door through which Ministers could undermine devolution—a power grab in which spending decisions previously made in Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast would be made in London, and that would also marginalise local authorities.

We debated on Monday, and next Monday we will debate again, those parts of the Bill that have dominated the headlines and shocked people around the world, but today’s debate has demonstrated that there are other deeply concerning aspects of this Bill. We heard about some yesterday, and they were echoed in the issues raised today. They are concerns about where power lies and how we make the decisions affecting our communities. Labour’s amendments seek to ensure that we hear local voices, spend money where it is needed and protect the Union. I commend them to the House.

Chloe Smith Portrait The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Chloe Smith)
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First of all, I thank you, Dame Rosie, for presiding over us in Committee this afternoon and I thank the hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) on the Opposition Front Bench for his calm tone at the end of what has been a fiery debate. Indeed, in that vein, I also thank the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who brought us to a mature tone after much back and forth. At this early point in my response, I thank him for his points about flooding funding and his coal tip, which I will take away and ensure are looked into the spirit in which he asked this afternoon.

00:05
I will turn to the substance of part 6 of the Bill. As everybody here knows, this Government are determined to deliver on the commitments on which we were elected, which include levelling up the whole United Kingdom, delivering prosperity for all our citizens and strengthening the ties that bind our Union together. Part 6 helps to achieve that. The power, as many have already observed this afternoon, will enable spending in the areas of infrastructure, economic development, culture and sport and will support educational and training activities and exchanges both within the UK and internationally, much of which was previously done at EU level.
The EU previously directed investments in many of those areas on the basis of priorities set by 28 different countries, and the power will allow us instead to focus UK taxpayers’ money on UK domestic priorities. For the first time, the funds will be open to direct scrutiny in this House by Scottish, Welsh, English and Northern Irish MPs. I was shocked that those on the Scottish National Benches appeared to dismiss that and think that constituency representation in this House was in some way either unnecessary or, worse, improper.
The creation of a UK-wide Government power, in addition to the devolved Administrations’ existing powers, will allow the UK Government to complement and strengthen the support already given to citizens in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales without taking away responsibilities from the devolved Administrations, and I emphasise that point to, among others, the hon. Members for Cardiff North (Anna McMorrin) and for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones).
As the Chair of the Welsh Affairs Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb), said this afternoon, it is a legitimate authority for the UK Government to seek to look after all of its citizens, and Members of this House have a legitimate authority in arguing for their own constituencies. Indeed, the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Alex Sobel), who is not in his place, called that idea “pork barrelling”, but Labour Members crowded into my right hon. Friend’s office when he was in government to argue that investment in their areas was needed.
Putting that to one side, it is essential that we continue to support businesses and communities in recovering from the impacts of covid, and that is why, as my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Fay Jones) pointed out, we need to level up the country now and drive investment into all parts of the UK. In fact, we have showcased the benefits that such funding can bring through the city and growth deals across the entire country, through which the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government, the Northern Ireland Executive and local partners have accepted funding to support economic growth. Indeed, there is nothing new about the UK Government supporting economic development, using, for example, the Industrial Development Act 1982 to do so.
The power we are considering today seeks to support a wider range of crucial areas that can improve people’s lives and livelihoods. That is very important, as my hon. Friends the Members for Heywood and Middleton (Chris Clarkson), for Bishop Auckland (Dehenna Davison) and for West Bromwich West (Shaun Bailey) pointed out. It seeks to ensure that the UK Government can respond effectively to opportunities across the UK. As some Members have put it this afternoon, objecting to that is tantamount to objecting to the UK Government being able to spend taxpayers’ money on the communities and businesses of Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland in every corner of the country for which the Government are responsible.
Amendments 33, 11 and 19 suggest that UK Ministers ought to request consent from the devolved Administrations to use the power. Let me start with the context that I referred to at the outset of my remarks. Currently, EU bodies do that spending on our behalf. They are unelected and they spend billions of pounds that we have provided as a net contributor, and that is drawing to an end. This legislation confers a power to ensure that we can invest UK taxpayers’ money nationwide on UK priorities and support people and businesses here in the UK. We intend to take a much more collaborative approach to delivering replacements to EU programmes than was ever the case with the European Union mandate. This will include engaging heavily with local authorities and the devolved Administrations, as well as with wider organisations. This new power will ensure that the UK Government are well positioned following the transition period to deliver investments to replace EU structural funds, at a minimum maintaining levels of investment across all four nations as per our manifesto commitment.
It is right that this responsibility should be held by the UK Government, rather than the EU. This will ensure that any financial assistance can be unified, that it can be universal in some instances and intra-UK in others, and that it can be at a scale that the whole of the UK can achieve. It is right to want to ensure that citizens in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland can continue to benefit from any initiatives that can bring such UK-wide benefits, as we did most recently with something on the scale of the furlough scheme. I again want to assure the hon. Members who tabled the amendments in this group that—
Alan Brown Portrait Alan Brown
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Will the Minister give way?

Chloe Smith Portrait Chloe Smith
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I certainly will not, because the hon. Gentleman has asked every single speaker this afternoon to give way, and I really need to answer the points raised by other hon. and right hon. Members here tonight.

The UK Government do not take any powers away from the devolved Administrations, because this is in addition to devolved powers, which continue. As I have said, we want to continue to work with the devolved Administrations and local authorities to ensure that this power is used to best effect, augmenting the existing powers used to support citizens across the UK. At this point, I want to thank the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine), who made the point very well about the need for consultation and partnership working. I believe that UK Government Ministers, under the scrutiny of the UK Parliament, should have that ability to invest UK-wide. A legislative obligation to seek consent from colleagues in Stormont, Cardiff Bay or Holyrood might not always be appropriate in that context. That is because, as I have set out, the plans for investment will be at a strategic level, including on UK-wide projects, which would not be suitable to be blocked by any one part of the country. Indeed, the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady) revealed in his comments that his party’s priorities lay elsewhere. Perhaps that is the case on independence, as SNP Members have missed no chance to tell us about that this afternoon, but the hon. Gentleman said that economic development, infrastructure, education, culture, sport and more were not a priority in Scotland. Those were his words, and there we have it—[Interruption.] They would block such things.

Amendment 14, from the hon. Member for Sheffield Central, would require both Houses of Parliament to agree by resolution how the power should operate. It is absolutely essential that any and all spending of taxpayers’ money is subject to proper scrutiny and, as the House well knows, we have this responsibility and authority when the Government seek to raise taxes and set budgets for public spending. We have it in the Commons, but not in the Lords, and the first thing I would say about amendment 14 is that it has a weakness—indeed, a major flaw—in that it invites the House of Lords to take a stance on financial matters, which it does not do. I have full confidence in the House of Commons to scrutinise UK Government spending decisions in this way, as it also does daily through Committees such as the Public Accounts Committee. The House would also have the opportunity to vote on spending allocation under this power, through the estimates process. So I argue that amendment 14 is unnecessary because there are already processes for looking at that expenditure, and I argue secondly that it is not right to give that power to the House of Lords as well as to the House of Commons.

Amendments 15, 16 and 12 propose that the devolved Administrations should themselves be funded to provide financial assistance under this legislation. I have already articulated why a new power is needed, so this really comes down to the very core point. For investment that is strategic, that is at a certain scale, that can be intra-UK and that can provide benefits universally across the UK, should that power be held at UK level or at the devolved level? This argument has been made pretty clearly, and it has reverberated across every side of the Chamber this afternoon. I do not think I need to re-summarise it here, but I say very clearly that this Government is a Unionist Government and we put the argument today that it is a sensible role for the UK Government to hold such a power. Therefore I turn away from those amendments that are simply based on a different view.

Amendment 12 seeks to go further. It suggests that the funding arising from the power be pre-allocated based on GDP and it should take the form of multi-annual funding.

Let me take this opportunity to be absolutely clear that devolved Administrations will continue to receive funding through the block grant and the Barnett formula, where appropriate. I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) for making a powerful argument that the nations are home to some of the most deprived communities in the UK, and this goes to the argument that is contained in this amendment, perhaps, about where need is. The spending power in the Bill helps to answer that call.

Turning to the idea of long-term planning and multi-annual funding that is also encapsulated in the amendment, the funding arrangements and the governance for use of the UK-wide spending power will be a decision for the spending review, and that is the right way to allocate multi-annual funding. I urge hon. Members to withdraw the proposed amendment because it is not necessary in that instance.

I turn to amendment 22, on which colleagues from Northern Ireland have spoken passionately today, especially the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) and the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson)—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman is waving at me from slightly outside the Chamber. I assure the hon. Members who authored that amendment that it is the intention and the effect of the power to apply equally across all of our nation, but I do not think that was quite the point of the hon. Gentleman’s argument here today. In fact, I suggest to him, politely and gently, that those arguments are best taken up again in the next session of this Committee, when we turn to Northern Ireland’s interests more broadly, and specifically to do with state aid, which is where I think he will be able to get a much fuller discussion of the points that he was making.

I would like to take this opportunity also to reassure the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) that community balance can be accommodated, such as it has been indeed through the Derry-Londonderry and Strabane city deal, and we intend that kind of partnership to be able to continue.

I also thank the hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna) for her passionate speech. She is of course right to quote John Hume that the best peace process of all is a job, and that is the kind of economic focus we intend through the Bill.

Let me also, just in passing, say to the hon. Member for Foyle—and I hope he is able to hear me, although he is also not in his place—that there is no intention to change any arrangements to do with water and water charges in Northern Ireland through the Bill, I hope he can note that—

Rosie Winterton Portrait The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)
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Order. I want to explain for the benefit of any people who may be watching that normally Members would be in their place, but the restrictions in the Chamber mean that some are not.

Chloe Smith Portrait Chloe Smith
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Of course, Dame Rosie, and I mean no discourtesy, either to them or to your chairing of the debate. It is just a little unusual not to be able to see the Member that you are directing a comment to.

Let me turn to amendment 22 on the important topic of climate change, tabled by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). She made her case with her usual passion and eloquence, which I greatly respect, and I share her determination to see those goals achieved, and so do the United Kingdom Government. However, there is already an overarching legal and policy framework for achieving those goals, and I do not think it is necessary to put that restriction on to that power, so I urge her to withdraw the amendment.

Let me turn briefly to the Government amendments 23, 24, 25 and 36, which seek to add to the types of mechanisms by which such assistance can be provided to further support economic development and other matters across the UK by means of an investment fund. Those are to help to ensure that this power can be used to best effect to boost growth, and I certainly hope every right hon. and hon. Member would support that.

This power, and the Bill overall, present a real once-in-a-generation opportunity to level up our country, to strengthen our Union and to allow the UK Government to invest better the taxpayers’ money that was previously spent by Brussels. We have a responsibility to support people, businesses and communities across the whole of our United Kingdom. This power enables the UK Government to do that in a variety of ways. I say to my right hon. and hon. Friends who asked about the UK shared prosperity fund that we can meet the manifesto commitment to deliver the fund, which matches the value of EU structural funds by using the provisions set out in this part of the Bill.

20:00
This power gives us the ability to support our world-leading cultural sector, which includes more than 30 world heritage sites, some of the most visited museums and galleries in the world, and festivals that showcase the UK’s creativity and innovation. It also provides the chance further to support sports policy interventions that will benefit the whole or any part of the UK. It gives us the chance to support educational and training exchanges in the UK and beyond, benefiting not only students but all of us. The Government are determined to pursue high-quality educational opportunities that meet our skills needs, fuel our economy and create world-leading outcomes for students.
The power means that we can consider infrastructure investment across the boundaries of the nations—constituency examples have been given that show why that is so important, especially in areas where two of our nations come together—and it leaves the competences of our devolved Administrations intact. Above all, the Bill will deliver a thriving UK internal market, underpinned by the strength of the UK Government. It will provide opportunity and prosperity for citizens across this country. I commend clauses 46 and 47 to the House.
Alison Thewliss Portrait Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)
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The Minister has given no concessions and very little by way of explanation for why these powers are required and exactly what the Government intend to do with them. Some Members said that this is about money. It is not about money; there is no money in the Bill. It is about the principle, devolution and where powers are best exercised.

I have a lot of sympathy with what the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) said. Many people who now vote for the SNP did not start out as nationalists. That would be impossible, given the growth in our party over recent years. Many of them would have a lot of sympathy with what he said about what the Union ought to be, but that is not where we are. That is not where Scotland is right now, and it is as a result of this Government and previous Governments, and of promises made and promises broken, that we are in the situation that we find ourselves in today.

This Bill exemplifies the very worst of that with this power grab. The explanatory notes clearly state that the purposes in part 6

“fall within wholly or partly devolved areas under the Scotland Act 1998, Government of Wales Act 2006 and Northern Ireland Act 1998.”

They are powers that are being removed from the devolved institutions and hoarded here at Westminster. We will no longer have a say over all the issues that we have a say over at the moment; that will be exercised by a Government and Ministers we did not elect. That cannot be allowed to stand.

I have many things to say about the Bill, but we are late in hour and late in time. With the leave of the House, I will withdraw amendment 33, but I reserve the right to vote against clause 46. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 46

Power to provide financial assistance for economic development etc

Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

The Committee proceeded to a Division.

Rosie Winterton Portrait The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Order. I must inform colleagues that, unfortunately, the pass readers in the Aye Lobby are not working. This means that colleagues who wish to vote Aye will need to do so by walking through the Chamber and stating their name at the Dispatch Box. I ask colleagues who want to vote Aye to join the queue to enter the Chamber. The No Lobby is unaffected and colleagues can continue to use the pass readers—[Interruption.] Apparently, the pass readers in the No Lobby are not working either, so all colleagues will need to vote by walking through the Chamber and stating their name at the Dispatch Box. I ask colleagues to join the queue to enter the Chamber. I ask the Tellers for the Noes to take up their place in the Under Gallery and the Tellers for the Ayes to take up their place in the officials’ Box.

Once the Tellers are in place, I will start inviting Members to file past the Table, stopping at the Dispatch Box to state their names and how they are voting. You should file to the left-hand side of the Table if you are voting Aye and the right if you are voting No. I suggest that Members on the Front Benches move further back for social distancing purposes, because other Members will be filing past. May I invite the first Member to step forward?

20:04

Division 98

Ayes: 340


Conservative: 332
Democratic Unionist Party: 7
Independent: 1

Noes: 51


Scottish National Party: 43
Plaid Cymru: 3
Social Democratic & Labour Party: 2
Independent: 1
Alliance: 1
Green Party: 1

Clause 46 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates.
Clause 47
Financial assistance: supplementary
Amendments made: 23, in clause 47, page 37, line 23, leave out “take the form” and insert “be provided by way”.
This amendment, together with Amendment 24, would allow financial assistance under Clause 46 to take any form.
24, in clause 47, page 37, line 23, after “indemnities” insert “or in any other form”.
This amendment, together with Amendment 23, would allow financial assistance under Clause 46 to take any form.
25, in clause 47, page 37, line 25, after “interest” insert “or other return”.
This amendment would ensure that the Minister could provide financial assistance in a way that generates a return other than interest - which might be the case for investment in investment funds.
26, in clause 47, page 37, line 26, at end insert—
“(d) may be provided to an investment fund for onward investment or administrative costs relating to onward investment.”
This amendment would enable the Minister to provide financial assistance to investment funds for onward investment.(Maria Caulfield.)
Rosie Winterton Portrait The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)
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Amendment 14 has been selected by the Chairman of Ways and Means for separate decision.

Amendment proposed: 14, in clause 47, page 37, line 29, at end, insert—

“(3A) Financial assistance under section 46 must be the subject of a framework agreement to be agreed by resolution of each House of Parliament.”—(Edward Miliband.)

The intention of this amendment is to provide a policy framework for the allocation of financial assistance.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

The Committee proceeded to a Division.

Rosie Winterton Portrait The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It has not been possible to mend the electronic pass reader, so we will repeat the same procedure as previously. We need to wait until the tellers are in place and then I will invite the first hon. Member to come forward.

00:00

Division 99

Ayes: 208


Labour: 191
Liberal Democrat: 8
Democratic Unionist Party: 6
Social Democratic & Labour Party: 2
Alliance: 1
Green Party: 1

Noes: 330


Conservative: 324
Independent: 1
Democratic Unionist Party: 1

Clause 47, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
The list of Members currently certified as eligible for a proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their proxy, is published at the end of today’s debates.
The occupant of the Chair left the Chair (Programme Order, 14 September).
The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again tomorrow.

Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Motion made, and Question proposed,
That Chris Grayling be removed from the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament under Schedule 1 to the Justice and Security Act 2013 and Bob Stewart be appointed to that Committee under section 1 of that Act.—(Mr Rees-Mogg.)
Question put and agreed to.

Business Without Debate

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Delegated Legislation

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Rosie Winterton Portrait Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
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With the leave of the House, we shall take motions 4 to 6 together.

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),

Exiting the European Union (Professional Qualifications)

That the draft Professional Qualifications and Services (Amendments and Miscellaneous Provisions) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020, which were laid before this House on 6 July, be approved.

Exiting the European Union (Health and Safety)

That the draft Carriage of Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020, which were laid before this House on 7 July, be approved.

Exiting the European Union (Immigration)

That the draft Immigration (Persons Designated under Sanctions Regulations) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020, which were laid before this House on 15 June, be approved.—(David Duguid.)

Question agreed to.

Misogyny in Sport

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Commons Chamber
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Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(David Duguid.)
21:10
Alex Davies-Jones Portrait Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab)
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Diolch, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to introduce my first Adjournment debate. I also thank the Minister for being here to respond to what is a global issue in sports clubs big and small around the world. Misogyny in sport is an incredibly broad topic for debate, and I want to be clear that it operates at every level. I could talk for hours about every sport known to man or woman—no pun intended—and those who know me would say that that is not hard, but it is already late, so we do not have the time. I will therefore try to focus my speech on a few specific issues that may not be as well known to the Minister or, indeed, to others listening here today.

The first is the misogyny we see in wrestling. While some will say that wrestling is not a sport, that is a debate for another day. The hon. Member for Bolsover (Mark Fletcher) and I are co-chairs of the all-party parliamentary group on wrestling, which I of course encourage Members of all political persuasions to join, so this is an issue close to my heart, not least because of the close links with my constituency in south Wales.

I will also touch on the barriers to participation in sport for women and girls. Simple issues, including kit and equipment designed with boys and men in mind, allow such inequalities to persist. I spoke to lots of individuals and sports clubs ahead of this evening’s debate, and they told me that everything from street harassment when training to unequal funding is having a gendered impact on interest in sports and exercise.

As colleagues across the House know, I am a proud woman of the Welsh valleys, so it seemed only fitting to begin my preparation for this debate by looking at the media coverage of Wales’ most famous sports stars, but there were far fewer women than men in those articles. What message does that send to young girls in my constituency, and across the country, about who sport is for, and what our sporting heroes should look like?

This is really a debate about the opportunities that we afford young people. Time and again I have heard the same stories about how some sports are gendered early on. Although I left school some years ago now, it surprises me that netball and hockey are still routinely aimed at women and girls, and football and rugby associated with men and boys.

Wendy Chamberlain Portrait Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD)
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I thank the hon. Lady for bringing an important topic to the Chamber. As a proud Scotswoman, I play the Scottish sport of shinty, which is often mistaken for hockey. Does the hon. Lady welcome, as I do, the quadrupling in women registering to play shinty over the past 10 years despite the challenges to which she refers?

Alex Davies-Jones Portrait Alex Davies-Jones
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I thank the hon. Member and absolutely echo her call. I look forward to watching shinty once it is given the prominence it deserves.

If we are to reduce misogyny and sexism within sport, we must do more to encourage variety at the first opportunity. A huge part of that battle lies with all of us. We all have a responsibility to call out misogyny and sexism where and whenever we can. On that point, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) for her campaign to make misogyny a hate crime. Only when misogyny is recognised for exactly what it is will we be able to reduce the abuse that women in sport often face. We all know how important sport and exercise are for both mental and physical wellness, and I am particularly worried that fears around misogyny are having an impact on the number of women participating in sport. The charity Women in Sport recently reported that 1.5 million fewer women than men participate in sport at least once a month.

Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
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I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this debate, because it is important to address misogyny in sport. Does she agree that we need to take all possible practical steps to ensure, for example, that my three beautiful young granddaughters—they get their good looks from their mother and grandmother, not me—have the same opportunities in sport that my handsome wee grandson will have? It is important for the future that we do this for the children.

Alex Davies-Jones Portrait Alex Davies-Jones
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. Now that he has intervened on my Adjournment debate, I feel like I am a proper MP. I completely echo his calls and hope to see his grandchildren among our sports stars of the future.

Women make up only 18% of qualified coaches and only 9% of senior coaches. In almost half of publicly funded national governing bodies, less than a quarter of their board are women, and, in total, women make up only around 30% of board members. While it is easy to get lost in the statistics, these numbers really do matter, particularly in traditionally male-dominated sports such as wrestling. The disturbing reality and lived experience for many female wrestlers is, more often than not, entrenched in misogyny. I have heard horrific tales from female wrestlers who were faced with threats of rape or sexual assault, all in the name of “friendly banter”. I have also heard from women as young as 13 or 14 who, at the start of their careers, were the targets of vile behaviours that saw male wrestlers competing to be the one to take their virginity.

The #MeToo movement shone a light on the inherent misogyny that persists across so many industries, but less well known is the Speaking Out movement, which has left the wrestling industry tainted with its harrowing stories of emotional and sexual abuse. These behaviours are disgraceful, yet they continue to persist, and ultimately, the sports industry urgently needs more regulation.

The UK Government have a responsibility to engage proactively with governing bodies to support women and to bring an end this abuse. I would be interested to know how many meetings the Minister has had with governing bodies to discuss misogyny in sport. What tests has his Department put in place to hold these institutions to account, particularly when there is no governing body to hold to account, as with wrestling? Who should these young women turn to? We saw this problem with British Gymnastics. It is welcome that UK Sport and Sport England are commissioning the Whyte review into British Gymnastics, but the UK Government must take the lead.

Women also often face barriers to accessing the proper equipment they need to participate in sports. Think about large-scale running events: most of these events provide runners with kit, which are almost always “unisex”—which of course, in reality, is not true. Yet it is not all doom and gloom; there is hope. There are many wonderful examples in my own constituency of groups that are doing an excellent job of encouraging women and girls’ participation in sport. The Rhondda ladies hockey club, supported by Hockey Wales, has been doing amazing work to encourage women, as well as members of the LGBTQ+ community, to participate in sport. I pay tribute to their fantastic work, and especially the work of my own former head of sixth form at Tonyrefail School, Kay Tyler, the club secretary. I also would love to highlight the fantastic work of the Pontyclun Falcons ladies rugby team in my community, and their team manager, Michelle Fitzpatrick, in encouraging and supporting women to play rugby.

Yet issues around misogyny in sport are apparent across every age group. University teams across the UK have repeatedly hit the headlines, most commonly for issues where men’s sports teams have been penalised for horrendously sexist, homophobic or racist themed nights out. And still, as in many industries around the country, women are paid less than their male counterparts for exactly the same work.

There are also massive differences in the funding opportunities. We saw that just recently: during the coronavirus crisis, the suspension of top-level football was initially applied equally to both the men’s and women’s competitions, but when games were allowed to start up again, the Football Association cancelled the women’s super league and championship matches. In contrast, the men’s premier league and championship games were able to resume.

Yet what is perhaps most shocking of all lies in public attitudes towards sport. Insure4Sport recently found that an incredible 40% of their participants do not believe that women’s and men’s sport should get equal TV coverage. Some of the responses on this reasoning were, frankly, disgraceful, ranging from, “I think women lack enthusiasm,” to, “I find them slow, weak and boring,” and, my personal favourite, “I personally think it’s not natural for a woman to play these types of sports.” Call me old-fashioned, but in 2020, I am flabbergasted that women’s sport is seen as “less than” in every sense.

The coronavirus pandemic has, of course, added to the strain that sports clubs across the country are facing. Clubs at all levels are feeling the severe financial pinch and there is concern already that the women’s game and their funding will suffer most in the long term. Many women’s elite teams are tied to or are subsidiaries of their professional men’s clubs. When the men’s clubs hit hard financial times, they often cut ties with the women’s team to save money. For example, when the men’s club withdrew funding in 2017, the Notts County women’s club collapsed, leaving their players jobless and, in some cases, homeless just two days before the season was due to start.

The Minister must ensure that the UK Government act to support women’s sport through the coronavirus crisis and to guarantee that future generations have the opportunity to develop a love for sport, which will pay dividends throughout their lives. Nevertheless, as bleak as this sounds, there is hope. Generations of children are now growing up with female sport heroes to look up to and we must not lose this momentum.

Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) is an ambassador and a pioneer in this House for football. She has not been able to attend the House because of illness, but we should put on record our thanks to her for what she did to promote the sport of football. She came to my constituency and visited the Comber Rec women’s football team, and really encouraged those people to take sport forward.

Alex Davies-Jones Portrait Alex Davies-Jones
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Member for his contribution, and I completely echo his call. I have not had the opportunity to meet the hon. Lady yet, but I wish her well from the House. I know that she is a passionate advocate for women’s sport, as am I, and I am glad that we could work cross-party on this.

As I said, there are some real trailblazers in traditionally male-dominated sport. I am sure that we will be seeing my two nieces, Katie and Robyn, on prime-time sports programming in the near future—well, fingers crossed anyway. From Tegan Nox, a proud Welsh valleys woman who is making waves in the wrestling world, to the formidable Fallon Sherrock, who I am sure will teach the men a thing or two in the upcoming world series of darts, it cannot be denied that women really can compete alongside the very best, regardless of gender. I am sure that the Minister will agree that these women are excellent examples of the very reasons why women and girls should be given equal opportunities early on in life.

Lastly, it would be foolish of me to secure such an important debate without touching on the decade-long period of cuts that has seen sports clubs and facilities fold at the hands of this Government. In July 2019, it was reported that since 2010, more than 700 council-run football pitches across the UK have been lost forever.

Wendy Chamberlain Portrait Wendy Chamberlain
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Member for giving way again. I would like to echo that and promote the #SaveLeisure campaign, because this is not just about sports clubs folding, but about the local council trusts that are running sport across the UK, which are now finding things really challenging, and that is having a knock-on effect on clubs.

Alex Davies-Jones Portrait Alex Davies-Jones
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I completely agree with the hon. Member and thank her for her contribution.

On that subject, by contrast, the Welsh Labour Government’s Vision for Sport truly prioritises the needs of people in Wales, and we are seeing some fantastic local initiatives pop up. In my constituency of Pontypridd, the local Labour-led council set up the fantastic “Dark in the Park” project in conjunction with Newydd housing association. This project uses local outdoor spaces such as Ynysangharad park to deliver a couch-to-5k running activity in the evening for local people.

To conclude, I would like the Minister to join me this evening in acknowledging the deeply misogynistic behaviours that still exist across the sport industry. While it would be foolish of me to ask the Government to intervene on the practices in sports clubs boardrooms across the country, I can ask that he and the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport actively encourage better practices for clubs, big and small. I specifically request that he consult the Chancellor ahead of the upcoming autumn Budget to ensure that local authority spending is not subject to further cuts that will impact the availability of sports facilities for all.

Carla Lockhart Portrait Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We saw in the last number of weeks the England football team giving pay parity to the women’s and men’s teams. Does the hon. Member agree that the Government need to do more to encourage broadcasters to promote women’s sport? If we look at the disparity between the showing of male-dominated sport and female-dominated sport, we see there is quite a gap.

Alex Davies-Jones Portrait Alex Davies-Jones
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I completely agree with the hon. Member’s calls. If we do not see women’s sport, there is no women’s sport. It needs to be visible to all of us for all of us to be encouraged to take part and see those heroes, so that we have heroes for our young people to look up to.

I also request that fair funding is given to the devolved nations in terms of the Barnett consequentials, which will allow for small steps to be taken to provide equal opportunities for everyone interested in sport. Ultimately, leadership to eradicate sexism and misogyny must start at the top. The road to ending this deeply entrenched inequality is undeniably long—a marathon, not a sprint, if you will—but until we see real change from the Government and a true commitment to eradicating sexism and misogyny in sport, I am afraid that the conversation will not even get off the starting blocks. Diolch.

00:05
Nigel Huddleston Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Nigel Huddleston)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones) for tabling this important topic for debate this evening. She spoke eloquently, knowledgeably and passionately about this very important topic, and I agreed with her on the vast majority of the issues she raised.

The great power of sport is that it has an amazing ability to bring people together and to unite for common goals. Sport should be an inclusive sector to work in, with opportunities for everyone. It should be enjoyable to watch, with everyone feeling welcome and included. Everyone should be able to take part in the sport or physical activity of their choosing—from football to rugby to wrestling, and beyond.

We have seen great progress, as the hon. Lady acknowledged, with women’s sport in recent years, with levels of media coverage and sponsorship higher than they have ever been, but of course there is much more to do. Misogyny has no place in our society. Any form of discrimination is abhorrent, and we must do all we can to tackle it. We have heard examples this evening of women facing disproportionate challenges in the sector. The examples the hon. Lady gave and others remain, sadly, all too frequent, and they happen across many aspects of the sporting sector.

In broadcasting, women’s sport still lags behind men’s in coverage. It is often only the biggest events—the Olympics, the Paralympics, Wimbledon and so on—where women’s sport gets equal screen time and debate. However, the issue goes deeper than broadcasters’ decisions. Sporting federations and event organisers support a great many more top-level men’s events than women’s. As the hon. Lady mentioned, covid has had a disproportionate impact on women’s competitions compared with men’s events, with many women’s top-level leagues and events cancelled. The inherent economic imbalance between men’s and women’s sport is leaving women’s sport having to fight harder to recover from coronavirus. That cannot be right.

Women have been historically under-represented as presenters or commentators, something that is starting to change with the concerted effort of broadcasters and some fantastic role models in this arena. This should be recognised and praised, and we are now more likely to see female presenters, pundits and commentators for both men’s and women’s sport on TV and radio. However, this itself has been a catalyst for online abuse, with female presenters being trolled and receiving misogynistic abuse from so-called fans who obviously believe women have no right to talk about sport, as the hon. Lady mentioned.

As I have said before about women in politics, if we want more women in sport, we need to start treating the ones we already have a lot better. This is something we do take very seriously as a Government. We are working on the plans set out in the Government’s online harms White Paper to introduce world-leading legislation to make companies more responsible for the users safety online. There are of course provisions in the Equality Act 2010 to protect people against discrimination, whether in the workplace, as consumers or as members of private clubs or associations. However, I repeat that there should be no place in sport for discrimination of any kind. Whether it is done consciously or unconsciously, we need to address discrimination and have open and challenging conversations about these issues.

Are there challenges? Yes. Should we do everything we can to tackle them? Of course. We can take heart from the great progress we have seen in women’s sport over recent years, and I want to say a few words about that now. The year 2019 was a fantastic one for women’s sport. To choose just two, the FIFA women’s world cup in France and the netball world cup in Liverpool were fantastic events that shone a spotlight on brilliant women sport stars. On top of that, the UK hosted the women’s Ashes and a thrilling Solheim cup.

We will be hosting some more great events in the coming years, including the Rugby League world cup in 2021, which will for the first time see a combined men’s, women’s and wheelchair tournament. In 2022, the UK is due to host the UEFA women’s Euro football championships and, of course, the Birmingham 2022 Commonwealth games, where there will be more women’s medal events than men’s. This will be the first time in history that a major multi-sport event will feature more women’s than men’s medal events, and we can have it right on our shores, which we should all be very proud of.

We are seeing the popularity of women’s sport continue to grow, with record audiences tuning in or turning up to watch international and domestic women’s events. On the commercial investment side, we have seen record sponsorship deals struck, including Barclays’ sponsorship of the women’s super league and Boots’ sponsorship of women’s national football teams. There are also many examples of individual clubs promoting equality between their men’s and women’s teams. Just last month I was delighted to visit Lewes Football Club in East Sussex. As many hon. Members will know, it was the first professional or semi-professional football club to have equal playing budgets for its men’s and women’s team, which is something I applaud.

All of that is helping to inspire more women and girls to become active. The latest data from Sport England’s Active Life survey in April showed that before covid-19 there were more than 210,000 active women compared with the previous year. We want to continue to encourage more women and girls to get active and build on the momentum generated by initiatives such as Sport England’s “This Girl Can” campaign, which launched its latest TV advert just this week. The latest phase of the campaign recognises that, for many people, the pandemic has added to the physical, financial and time barriers to getting active. The campaign uses real-life stories to celebrate the inventive ways in which many women have stayed active during the pandemic and helped to inspire many others.

I am pleased to say that more women are working in the sector than ever before. Sport England’s annual survey of diversity in sport governance, published in September last year, showed that women now make up an average of 40% of board members across Sport England and UK Sport-funded bodies. There is still progress to be made, but that is quite a remarkable achievement, and the Government continue to work with sports and sport bodies to ensure that opportunities to progress are open to all.

We want to raise the profile of, and encourage more commercial investment in, women’s sport. Sponsorship and media coverage go hand in hand. As the hon. Member for Pontypridd mentioned, if women’s sport does not have the media coverage, sponsors often do not see it as commercially attractive. It is fantastic to see elite women’s sport getting better coverage, but our key aim is to use that exposure to encourage more women and girls to get active. As we set out in the Government’s sport strategy “Sporting Future”, sport and physical activity should be accessible to all, and we mean all.

However, there is still a gap in participation levels between men and women. We know that there is still more work to be done to break down the barriers that prevent women and girls from getting active. Over the summer I met with sport governing bodies and the CEO of the fantastic charity Women In Sport, which the hon. Lady mentioned, to explore further the new challenges that covid-19 has posed to women in sport and to discuss what more can be done. I am happy to say that there was a real, shared commitment among sports to protect investment in women’s sport and promote its growth. I also wrote to the major sports governing bodies and asked what they were doing to encourage women’s sport. They came back with very positive responses. I look forward to seeing those positive responses and words turn into action, as I am sure the whole House does.

I recognise the impact that covid-19 has had on sport, but women’s sport has been hit particularly hard. I want to take this opportunity to assure hon. Members that I am personally committed to helping women’s sport come out of the current crisis stronger than ever, and I am working closely with the sector to ensure that that happens.

Jim Shannon Portrait Jim Shannon
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

One thought that I have had while the Minister has been presenting his case is about the need for stars—those who can be role models to promote a sport. Is that something that he could work on? If we can do that for the adults, the children will come through on the back of that.

Nigel Huddleston Portrait Nigel Huddleston
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention; I, too, do not feel that it is a proper debate without being intervened on by him. As always, he makes a valid and important point. During the coronavirus crisis, for example, we have seen leading sportsmen and, in particular, women show real leadership, being absolute role models, helping out in their communities and getting out the important messages about coronavirus that we need to get out there. On an ongoing basis, we see many female sports stars getting the credit they deserve, but we need to do more. I applaud those who have stood up and helped during the coronavirus crisis. Many women’s sport stars have played a lead role in many charities. They are deservedly on that pedestal.

Public funding in sport, which the hon. Member for Pontypridd mentioned, should clearly benefit women’s sport and physical activity. That is something I am very passionate about. I have made it clear to all the major sporting bodies that if they are receiving Government funding, I expect and require them to make sure that an adequate share of that funding is spent on women’s sport.

To conclude, misogyny has no place in our society and has no place in sport. Sport should bring people together. It should be inclusive as a sector and enjoyable to watch and participate in. We have seen great progress with women’s sport, with bigger audiences, increasing sponsorship deals and more coverage, and we are seeing progress on participation with more women and girls being physically active, but we must not become complacent or turn a blind eye to discrimination or misogyny. I thank the hon. Member again for reminding us of that by securing this evening’s debate.

Question put and agreed to.

00:05
House adjourned.

Members Eligible for a Proxy Vote

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Commons Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text
The following is the list of Members currently certified as eligible for a proxy vote, and of the Members nominated as their proxy:

Member eligible for proxy vote

Nominated proxy

Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington)

Bell Ribeiro-Addy

Tahir Ali (Birmingham, Hall Green)

Chris Elmore

Dr Rosena Allin-Khan (Tooting)

Chris Elmore

Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower)

Chris Elmore

Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk)

Stuart Andrew

Siobhan Baillie (Stroud)

Stuart Andrew

Hannah Bardell (Livingston)

Patrick Grady

Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay)

Stuart Andrew

Margaret Beckett (Derby South)

Clive Efford

Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley)

Stuart Andrew

Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen)

Stuart Andrew

Clive Betts (Sheffield South East)

Chris Elmore

Mhairi Black (Paisley and Renfrewshire South)

Patrick Grady

Bob Blackman (Harrow East)

Stuart Andrew

Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North)

Patrick Grady

Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough)

Stuart Andrew

Steven Bonnar (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill)

Patrick Grady

James Brokenshire (Old Bexley and Sidcup)

Stuart Andrew

Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham)

Chris Elmore

Richard Burgon (Leeds East)

Zarah Sultana

Conor Burns (Bournemouth West)

Stuart Andrew

Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill)

Chris Elmore

Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)

Patrick Grady

Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton)

Chris Elmore

Sarah Champion (Rotherham)

Chris Elmore

Douglas Chapman (Dunfermline and West Fife)

Patrick Grady

Feryal Clark (Enfield North)

Chris Elmore

Simon Clarke (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)

Stuart Andrew

Theo Clarke (Stafford)

Stuart Andrew

Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe)

Stuart Andrew

Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire)

Chris Elmore

Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North)

Bell Ribeiro-Addy

Alberto Costa (South Leicestershire)

Stuart Andrew

Ronnie Cowan (Inverclyde)

Patrick Grady

Mr Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon)

Alex Burghart

Angela Crawley (Lanark and Hamilton East)

Patrick Grady

Stella Creasy (Walthamstow)

Chris Elmore

Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford)

Caroline Nokes

Janet Daby (Lewisham East)

Chris Elmore

Geraint Davies (Swansea West)

Chris Evans

David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden)

Stuart Andrew

Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk)

Patrick Grady

Marsha De Cordova (Battersea)

Rachel Hopkins

Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire)

Patrick Grady

Allan Dorans (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)

Patrick Grady

Peter Dowd (Bootle)

Chris Elmore

Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire)

Stuart Andrew

Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington)

Chris Elmore

Philip Dunne (Ludlow)

Jeremy Hunt

Mrs Natalie Elphicke (Dover)

Maria Caulfield

Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall)

Chris Elmore

Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford)

Stuart Andrew

Michael Fabricant (Lichfield)

Stuart Andrew

Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw)

Patrick Grady

Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South)

Patrick Grady

Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Deptford)

Chris Elmore

Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford)

Stuart Andrew

George Freeman (Mid Norfolk)

Bim Afolami

Marcus Fysh (Yeovil)

Stuart Andrew

Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet)

Caroline Nokes

Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston)

Chris Elmore

Paul Girvan (South Antrim)

Sammy Wilson

Dame Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham)

Stuart Andrew

Mary Glindon (North Tyneside)

Chris Elmore

Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald)

Stuart Andrew

Peter Grant (Glenrothes)

Patrick Grady

Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts)

Patrick Grady

James Grundy (Leigh)

Stuart Andrew

Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish)

Chris Elmore

Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East)

Chris Elmore

Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham)

Chris Elmore

Sir Mark Hendrick (Preston)

Chris Elmore

Simon Hoare (North Dorset)

Fay Jones

Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West)

Chris Elmore

Adam Holloway (Gravesham)

Maria Caulfield

Sir George Howarth (Knowsley)

Chris Elmore

Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and The Border)

Stuart Andrew

Imran Hussain (Bradford East)

Judith Cummins

Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central)

Chris Elmore

Ranil Jayawardena (North East Hampshire)

Stuart Andrew

Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North)

Chris Elmore

Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton)

Stuart Andrew

Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South)

Chris Elmore

Afzal Khan (Manchester, Gorton)

Chris Elmore

Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire)

Stuart Andrew

Julian Knight (Solihull)

Stuart Andrew

Ian Lavery (Wansbeck)

Kate Osborne

Chris Law (Dundee West)

Patrick Grady

Clive Lewis (Norwich South)

Chris Elmore

Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset)

Stuart Andrew

Tony Lloyd (Rochdale)

Chris Elmore

Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford and Eccles)

Cat Smith

Julia Lopez (Hornchurch and Upminster)

Lee Rowley

Mr Jonathan Lord (Woking)

Stuart Andrew

Holly Lynch (Halifax)

Chris Elmore

Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian)

Patrick Grady

Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln)

Stuart Andrew

Stewart McDonald (Glasgow South)

Patrick Grady

John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington)

Zarah Sultana

Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East)

Patrick Grady

John Mc Nally (Falkirk)

Patrick Grady

Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr)

Chris Elmore

Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood)

Chris Elmore

Ian Mearns (Gateshead)

Chris Elmore

Mark Menzies (Fylde)

Stuart Andrew

Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West)

Patrick Grady

Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon)

Wendy Chamberlain

David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale)

Stuart Andrew

James Murray (Ealing North)

Chris Elmore

Ian Murray (Edinburgh South)

Chris Elmore

John Nicolson (Ochil and South Perthshire)

Patrick Grady

Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon)

Rebecca Harris

Guy Opperman (Hexham)

Stuart Andrew

Kate Osamor (Edmonton)

Nadia Whittome

Owen Paterson North Shropshire)

Stuart Andrew

Dr Dan Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich)

Peter Aldous

Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East)

Chris Elmore

Christina Rees (Neath)

Chris Elmore

Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West and Penge)

Chris Elmore

Naz Shah (Bradford West)

Chris Elmore

Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall)

Chris Elmore

Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield)

Chris Elmore

Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn)

Chris Elmore

Henry Smith (Crawley)

Stuart Andrew

Jo Stevens (Cardiff Glasgow Central)

Chris Elmore

Sir Gary Streeter (South West Devon)

Stuart Andrew

Mel Stride (Central Devon)

Stuart Andrew

Jon Trickett (Hemsworth)

Olivia Blake

Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East)

Chris Elmore

Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire)

Patrick Grady

Draft Equivalence Determinations for Financial Services (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

General Committees
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Committee consisted of the following Members:
Chair: Esther McVey
† Bailey, Shaun (West Bromwich West) (Con)
† Baynes, Simon (Clwyd South) (Con)
Brennan, Kevin (Cardiff West) (Lab)
† Coutinho, Claire (East Surrey) (Con)
† Evans, Dr Luke (Bosworth) (Con)
† Glen, John (Economic Secretary to the Treasury)
† Holden, Mr Richard (North West Durham) (Con)
† McFadden, Mr Pat (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)
McDonnell, John (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
Oppong-Asare, Abena (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab)
† Rutley, David (Lord Commissioner of Her Majestys Treasury)
† Sambrook, Gary (Birmingham, Northfield) (Con)
Sharma, Mr Virendra (Ealing, Southall) (Lab)
† Smith, Jeff (Manchester, Withington) (Lab)
Thompson, Owen (Midlothian) (SNP)
† Wheeler, Mrs Heather (South Derbyshire) (Con)
† Whittaker, Craig (Calder Valley) (Con)
Nicholas Taylor, Dominic Stockbridge, Committee Clerks
† attended the Committee
Tenth Delegated Legislation Committee
Wednesday 16 September 2020
[Esther McVey in the Chair]
Draft Equivalence Determinations for Financial Services (Amendment Etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020
00:04
None Portrait The Chair
- Hansard -

Before we begin, I remind Members about social distancing. I can see you are adhering to the rules and sitting in the marked seats. If people are going to speak, Hansard colleagues will be grateful if you email your notes to them at hansardnotes@parliament.uk. I call the Minister to move the motion.

John Glen Portrait The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Equivalence Determinations for Financial Services (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Ms McVey.

The Treasury has been undertaking a programme of legislation to ensure that after the end of the transition period, there continues to be a functioning legal and regulatory regime for financial services in the UK. The Treasury lays statutory instruments under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 to deliver this legislative programme, and the majority of these SIs have already been approved in this place and in the House of Lords. As part of this financial services legislative programme before exit day, the Treasury laid the Equivalence Determinations for Financial Services and Miscellaneous Provisions (Amendment etc) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, commonly known as the equivalence regulations 2019, in January 2019.

The equivalence regulations 2019 were designed to ensure that, if the UK left the EU without a transition period, the UK would have a fully functioning equivalence framework from exit day. The additional time afforded by the transition period has provided us with the opportunity to put in place supplementary measures in the equivalence regulations 2019 to ensure that the UK continues to have a robust and functioning equivalence framework for financial services both during and after the end of the transition period.

The measures in the instrument being debated today complement the equivalence regulations 2019 by creating additional standalone powers for the relevant UK financial services regulators—the Bank of England and the Financial Conduct Authority—which are appropriate for those regulators in the transition period, and also make minor amendments to the earlier 2019 regulations, again as appropriate for the transition period. The SI will make minor amendments to add to the powers available to the regulators after the end of the transition period and to correct errors in earlier financial services EU exit legislation.

I am grateful that this SI was raised as an instrument of interest by the Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee in its July report and for the question the Committee raised on co-operation agreements. I intend to address that question during this debate.

The instrument being debated concerns the UK’s future regime for equivalence, which is a process to determine that another country’s regulatory and supervisory regime is equivalent to the UK’s corresponding regulatory framework. Recognising the regulatory equivalence of third countries is a key component of financial services regulation. Equivalence determinations can help to reduce regulatory burdens on firms and facilitate cross-border market access. This may lead to increased competition, which has benefits for UK firms and consumers by engendering healthy market incentives to lower prices and offer innovative products.

At present, equivalence functions are performed by the European Commission and the European supervisory authorities. At the end of the transition period, these functions will be transferred to the Treasury and the UK regulators as provisions in retained EU law. During the transition period, equivalence determinations can be made for European economic area states via powers within the equivalence regulations 2019. This instrument provides a UK equivalence framework that is appropriate for use during the transition period in relation to the EU’s existing framework. This instrument allows the UK financial services regulators to complete the associated actions that mean that Treasury equivalence determinations taken during the transition period can take full effect at the end of that time.

This is a technical SI that provides for the UK’s transition to its new position outside the EU. I will now explain in more detail the main categories of fixes that the SI introduces. The first three changes provide UK regulators with appropriate powers to complete the associated actions that ensure that the Treasury’s equivalence determinations can take effect fully at the end of the transition period.

Currently, the equivalence regulations 2019 allow the Treasury to make equivalence determinations by direction during the transition period for EEA states, with those directions not entering into force until the end of the transition period. As part of the equivalence process, almost all the equivalence provisions in retained EU law will require UK financial services regulators to conclude co-operation arrangements with the relevant regulatory authority or authorities for that EEA state before the determination can take effect. Currently, there is no mechanism to allow regulators to undertake that during the transition period.

Where the Treasury has made an equivalence determination by direction, the SI will make transitional provision for UK financial services regulators to have the power to enter into relevant co-operation arrangements with the appropriate EEA regulatory authorities before the end of the transition period. Those co-operation arrangements will come into effect at the end of the transition period for the necessary provisions in retained EU law.

Additionally, as part of the direction-making process, almost all equivalence provisions require regulators to issue recognition or registration decisions for non-UK firms. Where the Treasury has made an equivalence determination by direction during the transition period, the instrument puts in place a regime for firms to make an application during the transition period to the appropriate regulator and for that application to be processed.

The instrument will therefore ensure that the regulators have the power to process applications and issue recognition and registration decisions during the transition period, to come into effect at the end of that period for the necessary provisions in retained EU law. It will also give regulators the power to request fees from applicants for regulatory decisions made under it.

I appreciate that the Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee questioned whether there is enough time for the UK regulators to establish co-operation agreements with EEA regulators once an equivalence determination is made and then process applications made by EEA firms. I am pleased to say that regulators have a period of one year to process applications from EEA firms once the required co-operation arrangements have been established. Both the Treasury and regulators consider that ample time for the regulators to decide any applications.

Secondly, the SI will amend the Credit Rating Agencies (Amendment, etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, which in turn make provision for the onshoring of the EU credit rating agencies regulation. The amendments will onshore the powers to enter into co-operation arrangements currently held by the European Securities and Markets Authority to the Financial Conduct Authority.

The amendments also make provision for the existing EU equivalence determinations that will form part of retained EU law by operation of section 3 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. Finally, a minor but necessary amendment is also made to the Central Securities Depositories (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018 that relates to a provision within the regulations to ensure that they work in a UK-only context.

In summary, the Government believe that the proposed instrument is necessary to ensure that there is an appropriate equivalence framework for financial services during the transition period and to complement that already put in place by the equivalence regulations 2019. I hope that Committee members will join me in supporting the regulations and I commend them to the Committee.

14:38
Pat McFadden Portrait Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms McVey. The regulations are intended to put in place an equivalence regime for financial services during and at the end of the transition period. They mirror the equivalence regulations put in place last year in case we left the EU without a withdrawal agreement. As the old saying goes, it is déjà vu all over again.

The aim is to ensure minimal disruption at the end of the transition period and a suitable UK regime for functions currently carried out by EU bodies such as the Commission or the European Securities and Markets Authority. In most cases, those functions will transfer to the Treasury or regulators such as the Financial Conduct Authority. The Minister might confirm my understanding that the aim of the regulations is not to change policy other than that necessary to recognise the legal fact of the UK’s having left the European Union.

To put the Committee’s mind at rest, I will say that we do not intend to divide the Committee on this matter today. It is clearly in the national interest to have a robust regulatory system in place and to have a mechanism for making equivalence determinations for the financial services industries and the regulatory systems in EEA countries, and that is what the regulations aim to achieve.

However, I do have a couple of questions for the Minister, and I would be grateful if he addressed them in his summing-up speech. Determining equivalence is of course a two-way street. It is of just as much relevance to our financial services industry—and all the jobs, investment and tax revenue associated with it—to know what the situation is with equivalence determinations in EEA countries for our financial services industry as it is to design our own regulatory system for theirs.

The Minister will be aware that paragraph 36 of the political declaration that we signed last year said that the UK and EU should endeavour

“to conclude these assessments before the end of June 2020.”

We are well beyond that now, in mid-September, and perhaps it is a bit much to expect the Government to stick to the non-legally binding political declaration when they do not even intend to stick to the withdrawal agreement, but could the Minister give an update on how the process of determining equivalence with EEA countries is going? That has of course become a more serious and urgent question with the controversy about the United Kingdom Internal Market Bill, currently being debated in the House.

Let us say that no free trade agreement is reached in the coming weeks. What is the Minister’s assessment of the impact of that on our financial services industries? The regulations—they say it throughout—are all about co-operation arrangements, but what if there is not much co-operation in place? What will that mean for this important sector of the UK economy? What will it mean for jobs? And what will it mean for associated industries such as law, consultancy, accountancy, insurance and so on? What does the Minister think are the prospects for equivalence agreements if the good will is being destroyed in the way that we have seen in the last couple of weeks? What representations, if any, has the Minister received from the financial services industry on this question in recent weeks, since the Government’s intentions on the internal market Bill became clear?

We can replicate the regulations currently in place; we can transfer responsibility for these determinations to UK bodies, and that is what the regulations before us today do, but what we cannot do is replicate the market access that we currently have, because the Government have chosen their direction in the negotiations in a way that inevitably lessens market access for these UK-based firms. Of course, quite what the full implications of that are only time will tell, but particularly in the light of the last couple of weeks, I would be interested in the Minister’s assessment of that before we conclude.

14:43
John Glen Portrait John Glen
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his points, which I will address in turn. To reiterate, this SI is needed to ensure that we continue in the UK to have a robust and functioning equivalence framework for financial services after exit. As the right hon. Gentleman acknowledged, these regulations make minor amendments to modify errors in onshored legislation.

The right hon. Gentleman asked me to confirm initially whether there was any intention to change policy. There is no intention to change policy. But he then asked a series of questions related to the broader negotiation of equivalence in financial services. I am happy to address that and to acknowledge that we returned all 17 questionnaires received from the EU as part of its assessment process. Our returns totalled more than 2,500 pages. We received the first questionnaire in late March, and the last 250 pages of questions reached us only at the end of May. Our belief, as I have said previously, is that many, if not most, of those questions relate to explaining the detailed rules and regulations in the UK—ones that we share with the EU. I am happy to confirm that, although decisions on equivalence are autonomous and unilateral in many areas of financial services, it is essential that we understand the approach of the other party when deciding how to approach an area of cross-border activity. Although the UK has undertaken its assessment of the EU, we will not be making equivalence decisions at this stage; we will make decisions when and where we determine that it is in the UK’s interests to do so. Our ambition remains to achieve reciprocal equivalence, supported by effective regulatory co-operation and an ambitious free trade agreement. We continue to work towards that goal.

The right hon. Gentleman asks about broader engagement with the industry. Obviously, I have deep and regular contact with representative bodies from the different parts of the financial services industry. Just last week I chaired the tenth meeting of the asset management taskforce, and I obviously hear the concerns about these unresolved matters. With respect to the specific arrangements in this SI, however, I hope the Committee is assured that these modest changes are fully necessary. I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s agreement on that.

Question put and agreed to.

2.46 pm

Committee rose.

Draft European Structural and Investment Funds Common Provisions and COMMON PROVISION RULES ETC. (AMENDMENT) (EU EXIT) (REVOCATION) REGULATIONS 2020

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

General Committees
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The Committee consisted of the following Members:
Chair: †Dr Rupa Huq
† Afriyie, Adam (Windsor) (Con)
Cooper, Rosie (West Lancashire) (Lab)
Davison, Dehenna (Bishop Auckland) (Con)
† Furniss, Gill (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) (Lab)
† Gideon, Jo (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Con)
Grady, Patrick (Glasgow North) (SNP)
† Jupp, Simon (East Devon) (Con)
Keeley, Barbara (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
† Mangnall, Anthony (Totnes) (Con)
† Moore, Damien (Southport) (Con)
Morden, Jessica (Newport East) (Lab)
† Onwurah, Chi (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
† Simmonds, David (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) (Con)
† Tarry, Sam (Ilford South) (Lab)
† Tomlinson, Michael (Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty's Treasury)
† Watling, Giles (Clacton) (Con)
† Zahawi, Nadhim (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy)
Bradley Albrow, Committee Clerk
† attended the Committee
Thirteenth Delegated Legislation Committee
Wednesday 16 September 2020
[Dr Rupa Huq in the Chair]
Draft European Structural and Investment Funds Common Provisions and Common Provision Rules etc. (Amendment) (EU Exit) (Revocation) Regulations 2020
14:30
Nadhim Zahawi Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Nadhim Zahawi)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft European Structural and Investment Funds Common Provisions and Common Provision Rules etc. (Amendment) (EU Exit) (Revocation) Regulations 2020.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairwomanship, Dr Huq. The draft regulations were laid before the House on 13 July 2020. The European Union regulations for structural funds and the cohesion fund are designed to reduce social and economic disparities in the EU. The funds are the main funding tools designed to deliver the EU cohesion policy and come under the wider family of European structural and investment funds, or ESIF. The EU regulations set out the rules governing those funds and give powers to the member states to ensure the operability of eligibility projects. More than half of EU funding is channelled through the European structural and investment funds, which are jointly managed by the European Commission and EU member states.

The Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy sets the policy for and co-ordinates the management of four of the funds across the United Kingdom: the European regional development fund, or ERDF, which includes the European territorial co-operation fund, or ETC; the European social fund, or ESF; the European agricultural fund for rural development; and the European maritime and fisheries fund. Under the structural funds, the UK was allocated about £9.5 billion of funding for the 2014 to 2020 period. The funds support growth, low carbon, transport, research innovation, small business, employment opportunities and social inclusion.

Structural fund programmes are managed and delivered by Government organisations designated as “managing authorities”. In essence, they are the delivery bodies for the funds in England and in the devolved Administrations and are responsible for drawing up operational programmes. The programmes set out the levels of funding for certain activities, and how the programmes will be run within the parameters set by the EU regulations.

BEIS is the co-ordinating body for the ESIF in the United Kingdom. In England, the managing authorities for the European regional development fund and the European social fund are, respectively, the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government, and the Department for Work and Pensions. The devolved Administrations and Her Majesty’s Government of Gibraltar administer ERDF and ESF in their respective areas. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs manages the agricultural funds in England, and the devolved Administrations in their areas, apart from the EMFF, which is run across the UK by the Marine Management Organisation, a non-departmental Government body sponsored by DEFRA.

Gibraltar receives a small allocation of about €10 million, or £8.8 million, from the ERDF and ESF for 2014 to 2020. It has agreed operational programmes with the European Commission to implement those. It also takes part in two transnational programmes.

The need for continued regional investment in the event of a no-deal exit, and the nature of the projects supported by those funds, led to the introduction of legislation so that the funds could operate domestically under no deal until their planned closure, even though they would cease to be funded by the EU. Since the UK signed the withdrawal agreement document, which maintains the EU regulations for European structural and investment funds until programme closure—which might not be until 2026, given that programmes run until 2023 and generally take two to three years to wind up—that statutory instrument, the European Structural and Investment Funds Common Provisions and Common Provision Rules etc. (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, or SI 2019/625, contradicts the intent and purpose of the withdrawal agreement.

The draft regulations are therefore being made to revoke SI 2109/625, which was made on 18 March 2019. That SI disapplied retained EU law in relation to the European regional development fund, European social fund and European territorial cooperation fund, in order to ensure that the programmes could continue in a no-deal exit scenario. Under the withdrawal agreement, the regulations can still apply to the UK, despite the UK not being a member state.

Now that the withdrawal agreement has been signed by the UK and made into law through the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020, SI 2019/625 is no longer required and should be repealed in order not to confuse the statute book. The Act allows the UK to continue to apply EU regulation 1303/2013, the supplementary fund-specific regulations and associated delegated, and implementing legislation for European structural and investment funds, until the end of the current programmes. It is proposed that the UK shared prosperity fund will be set up as the domestic successor to European structural investment funds for new programmes.

It is necessary to revoke the original no-deal statutory instrument 2019/625 to remove conflict with the provisions of the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020. The United Kingdom will continue to participate in European structural investment fund programmes until their closure, and delivery continues through the management authorities and devolved Administrations. In order to remove any confusion from the statute book, as the no-deal guarantee for funding is not required, I commend the draft regulations to the Committee.

14:37
Chi Onwurah Portrait Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a real pleasure to serve under your chairship, Dr Huq, especially on this very important subject, which I know is close to your heart and that of all of us here. I thank the Minister for his opening remarks, which were enlightening in some respects, though not in all, as I will come on to.

Between 2014 and 2030, the UK benefited from £17.2 billion of European structural and investment funds, as well as the additional national and private co-financing that that funding leveraged. That investment continues to strengthen projects led by not-for-profit organisations, local authorities, registered charities, higher and further education institutions, voluntary and community organisations, and statutory and non-statutory public-funded bodies, but it also—the Minister briefly made reference to this point—makes its way to businesses across the regions and nations of the United Kingdom that support these sectors in making the best of the investment.

Over time, the funding streams have become an integral part of the US business landscape. Whether through research and innovation, supporting our shift towards a low-carbon economy or promoting social inclusion to combat poverty and create jobs, the European Union structural and investment funds have mitigated some of the chronic regional, socio-economic and business investment disparities we see in the UK. As an MP from the north-east of England, I know very well how vital the funds have been in plugging the gaps left in my region after a decade of austerity.

The funds are underpinned by fair and progressive distribution formulas that ensure investment gets to where it is needed most and where it will have the most impact. I am sure that the Minister will agree that is the very definition of levelling up. Indeed, the Institute for Public Policy Research’s report on the proposed shared prosperity fund, published in February 2019, states:

“After Brexit, the UK will need to continue to give targeted support and investment into regions with lower levels of growth and higher levels of poverty, or it risks worsening the geographical divide.”

Labour supports the SI, in so far as it ensures that UK-funded programmes and activities entered into as part of the MFF 2014-2020 can continue to operate smoothly through to completion beyond the end of the transition period. We recognise that the SI is largely technical in nature and that it revokes a previous SI that, as the Minister has said, is no longer relevant and must be removed from the statute book. However, I want to raise a number of concerns that I hope the Minister will be able to speak to in his response.

We have just months left until the end of the transition period, but the Government are seemingly—obviously, I would say—struggling to negotiate effectively with the European Union, and they continue to undermine their own political declaration and withdrawal agreement at every turn. It was interesting to hear the Minister say that the SI was no longer needed because the withdrawal agreement had been signed and agreed, yet we debate in this House whether the withdrawal agreement will continue to apply in certain important aspects.

As things stand, the UK will have no access to structural investment funds once the 2014-2020 funding cycle comes to an end. The Minister said that “it is proposed” that the replacement be the strategic prosperity fund, using the passive voice as if it were not part of his Department’s obligations—or promises rather than obligations. The Minister will also know that Labour has been concerned for some time that the UK shared prosperity fund has no details on how the Government will distribute and match the success of EU programmes. No details have been forthcoming whatsoever.

Labour has been pushing the Government for any kind of plan since the new fund was first suggested in the Conservative party’s 2017 manifesto—more than three years ago. We were told that we would be seeing a full consultation document and final decisions on the fund’s design as part of the 2019 spending review, so businesses and key stakeholders across the country duly geared up to work with the Government on the replacement fund. Instead, the Government cancelled the spending review and have since rowed back on their commitment to a full and transparent consultation process. The Minister made no mention of that.

A rescheduled spending review to conclude in July 2020 has been further delayed due to covid-19. We understand that, and the Government can be forgiven for having to adapt their legislative programme at short notice. However, the plans for the fund were already off schedule well before the pandemic hit. Without figures or even a simple timetable, businesses operating in all sectors across the UK are left in the dark, unable to plan for key funding applications beyond 2020, and all that just months before the transition period comes to an abrupt end. That adds even more layers of uncertainty on top of those already being felt by businesses small and large across our country as a result of the Government’s mismanagement of the coronavirus pandemic and European Union negotiations.

The British Chambers of Commerce wrote to the Government in July 2019, more than a year ago, stating:

“From city regeneration schemes to business support, investment finance to research collaboration, businesses do not want to see ‘cliff edges’ in funding, but nor do they want a copy-and-paste approach to replacing the current system of EU development finance. Government must publish long-overdue proposals for a UK Shared Prosperity Fund for consultation—with a commitment to maximum local autonomy, a strong voice for business and a focus on economic growth.”

That was requested more than a year ago.

First, can the Minister clarify today when we can expect to see a credible plan for the UK’s shared prosperity fund? Secondly, can he confirm whether a full public consultation will take place to ensure all views and stakeholders get an equal opportunity to feed into this important and nation-shaping fund? Can he also clarify what work his Department has done to audit the impact of the European Union structural investment fund on businesses across the regions of the UK? Labour believes it is important for the Department and Ministers to have a clear picture of the impact before plans for a replacement fund can be decided upon. Can he agree that that vital work will be placed in the public domain before any consultation takes place?

The all-party parliamentary group for post-Brexit funding for nations, regions and local areas believes that the European regional development fund, the European social fund and the local growth fund, a non-EU fund, may be considered for amalgamation. The Minister mentioned a series of smaller funds including the European maritime and fisheries fund, and there is also the LEADER programme for rural development and the youth employment initiative. They could be considered for folding into the UK shared prosperity fund too. Taking into account the inflation uprating of those funding pots, as well as the additional designated “less developed regions” and “transition regions” the UK would have been allocated in the next MFF, the APPG suggests that any new shared prosperity fund should total just over £4 billion. Taking that figure as a starting point, will the Minister say whether the Government’s fund will be higher or lower than that figure?

On devolution, the Welsh Government have legitimate concerns about the shared prosperity fund being directed centrally from Whitehall, which they would see as an attack on devolution. Welsh businesses need the Government here in Westminster to ensure that the extraordinary benefits experienced by Welsh businesses under the European structural and investment funds are not lost in the transition to a new fund. Many local authorities across England, Scotland and Northern Ireland share that concern. I want to see the replacement fund enabling local leaders, businesses and people to have more say on how money is spent in communities. Indeed, in March this year the Institute for Government said

“Although the UK government has committed that the UK Shared Prosperity Fund will operate in a way that respects the devolution settlements, the devolved administrations are also suspicious that it might be used to allow the UK government to spend money directly in devolved areas, bypassing the devolved governments. This could signal a centralisation of regional development policy which would, according to Welsh First Minister Mark Drakeford, represent “a direct attack on devolution”.”

Can the Minister reassure us that that is not his intention?

In a letter to the Chancellor in February, the chair of the North East England Chamber of Commerce, James Ramsbotham, called out the Government’s “extremely poor” approach to engagement and consultation on the UK shared prosperity fund, which must recognise the north-east’s specific challenges regarding deprivation and lower economic performance. You will understand, Dr Huq, that as a north-east MP I cite a north-east example, but I know that other regions have concerns about the lack of consultation. Many businesses I speak to are also concerned that the Government may move to a shorter funding cycle. A seven-year funding cycle is embedded in European Union structural and investment funds, which enables businesses to plan strategically to make smarter investments in their workforce and operations over a longer period of time. I ask the Minister to acknowledge the value of longer-term cycles. Will the Minister be advocating for that approach on behalf of UK businesses in any new fund?

I have concerns that the Government will propagate politically motivated funding strategies via the shared prosperity fund that could negatively impact areas that most need investment. We have seen cynical funding formulas deployed in the future high street fund and in the town of culture funds, targeting Conservative party seats that have received disproportionate levels of funding. Will the Minister allay the concerns of businesses and non-Conservative target seats by declaring today that the Government have no intention of leaving out areas that are in urgent need of investment?

Rupa Huq Portrait Chair
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Does any other Member wish to catch my eye, any Back Bencher? SNP not here? That’s them for you, isn’t it.

14:49
Nadhim Zahawi Portrait Nadhim Zahawi
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the Shadow Minister for her remarks, and I will attempt to address those in my closing comments. I thank my colleagues for listening so intently to such an enthralling statutory instrument.

Now that, obviously, the UK has left the European Union we are able to design and implement our own regional funding programmes that I mentioned. Just a couple of small typos to mention, I do not want Hansard to get it wrong: I think the hon. Lady meant that businesses benefitted from the funds from 2014 to 2020, I think maybe she mistakenly said 2030 in her opening remarks, and she talked about US businesses, and I think she meant UK businesses.

Chi Onwurah Portrait Chi Onwurah
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

If I said 2030, I meant 2014 to 2020. I am pretty sure I said UK businesses.

Nadhim Zahawi Portrait Nadhim Zahawi
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Absolutely. I will touch on the hon. Lady’s remarks about what the UK shared prosperity fund will look like. The 2019 Conservative manifesto commits to creating the UK shared prosperity fund, a programme of investment to bind together the whole of the United Kingdom. I take slight issue with her final remark about our in some way discriminating; the Prime Minister is absolutely committed to levelling up all over the United Kingdom and, of course, binding the four nations together, tackling inequality and deprivation in each of our four nations. Through the UK shared prosperity fund the Government can cut out bureaucracy and create a fund that invests in UK priorities, at least as much as the current European fund has done, and is easier for local areas to access.

The hon. Lady asked about clarity. The Government recognise the importance of providing clarity on the UK shared prosperity fund. Decisions on the design of the fund will need to be taken after the cross-Government spending review. In the meantime, we will continue to work closely with interested parties. On the hon. Lady’s question about consultation on the fund, the Government recognise the importance of reassuring local communities, including her own constituency, on the future of local growth funding and providing clarity on the UK shared prosperity fund. I can confirm that Government officials have held 26 engagement events in total, including 25 across the United Kingdom and one in Gibraltar. They were attended by more than 500 representatives from a breadth of sectors and designed to aid the development of the fund.

The hon. Lady asked about how the Government would set up the fund. Obviously, leaving the European Union provides us with fresh opportunities to create a fund that invests in UK priorities and targets funding where it is most needed, which was her point, while maintaining support for our businesses and communities.

The findings from the Scottish and Welsh Governments’ consultations are certainly welcome. We want to ensure that the UK Government and their institutions are working effectively to realise the benefits of four nations working together as one United Kingdom. UK Government officials have held 16 engagement events across Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland designed to aid policy development.

On devolution and the future of funding, clearly the House will recognise that international arrangements are a reserved matter and that it is for the United Kingdom Government to negotiate a future relationship with the EU for the whole of the United Kingdom. The programmes in which the UK is considering participation are those that represent benefits to the UK, provided the terms reached in negotiations are fair and appropriate. Those programmes were selected based on business cases that the devolved Administrations had the opportunity to feed into, as far as possible. BEIS has ensured that the views of the devolved Administrations were reflected.

The UK Government remain committed to engaging with the devolved Administrations on the negotiations, including on the discussions about participation in those EU programmes that were considered as listed in the UK’s approach.

Chi Onwurah Portrait Chi Onwurah
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank the Minister for his responses to my questions. I agree with him about much of what he says that the shared prosperity fund should do, but does he recognise that we have left the European Union and yet we still have no detail on that fund? There is nothing stopping the Government designing that fund now, now that we have left the European Union, so why do we still not have any detail on that fund? Can he please let us know when we will have some information on that fund, which, as a sovereign nation, we have the power to design?

Nadhim Zahawi Portrait Nadhim Zahawi
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the shadow Minister for her question, and maybe I should have repeated what I said in my opening remarks; I thought she had actually got it the first time. Although we have left the European Union, the funding for business will carry on through 2021 all the way to 2023, so this idea that somehow we are being negligent is incorrect. The right thing to do is to go through the spending review and to design the UK shared prosperity fund correctly, so that it benefits the whole of the United Kingdom.

There have been some queries about future participation in EU programmes, and if that is the hon. Lady’s point, I am happy to address it, because we will continue to take part in the PEACE PLUS Programme, which is so important to the people of Northern Ireland.

Chi Onwurah Portrait Chi Onwurah
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I did listen to the Minister’s opening remarks with rapt attention, and I acknowledge that he said that the funding and subsequent winding-up of funding could go on until 2025-26. However, we now have the power to design the shared prosperity fund and as I made numerous references to, businesses, business organisations and local authorities have been crying out for two or three years now for some indication of what will happen to that fund. The barrier is not the European Union; the barrier is the Government getting on with it and designing the fund.

Nadhim Zahawi Portrait Nadhim Zahawi
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her intervention. I do not think there is a lack of focus or seriousness in wanting to design the fund and get it right. However, I hope that she will agree that it is important that we deliver that once we have the spending review delivered. I will not dwell any further on this matter, but clearly, decisions on the design of the fund will need to be taken after the cross-Government spending review. In the meantime, we will continue to work closely with interested parties, while developing the fund.

Dr Huq, I do not want to take up any more of your time, so I will finally conclude my remarks. In the context of the current pandemic, I will just add that managing authorities and devolved Administrations have made use of the flexibilities provided by the European Commission’s coronavirus response investment initiative, as well as working with partners to provide assurance on business survival and job protection in the most exposed sectors of the economy.

I commend this draft regulation to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

14:57
Committee rose.

Draft Air Quality (Domestic Solid Fuels Standards) (England) Regulations 2020

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

General Committees
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Committee consisted of the following Members:
Chair: Philip Davies
Bradshaw, Mr Ben (Exeter) (Lab)
† Griffith, Andrew (Arundel and South Downs) (Con)
Johnson, Dame Diana (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
† Jones, Fay (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)
† Jones, Ruth (Newport West) (Lab)
† Lamont, John (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (Con)
† Longhi, Marco (Dudley North) (Con)
McCabe, Steve (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
† Millar, Robin (Aberconwy) (Con)
† Morden, Jessica (Newport East) (Lab)
† Morris, James (Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty's Treasury)
† Morrissey, Joy (Beaconsfield) (Con)
† Pow, Rebecca (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs)
Ribeiro-Addy, Bell (Streatham) (Lab)
† Richards, Nicola (West Bromwich East) (Con)
Slaughter, Andy (Hammersmith) (Lab)
† Stevenson, Jane (Wolverhampton North East) (Con)
Ian Bradshaw, Committee Clerk
† attended the Committee
Eighth Delegated Legislation Committee
Wednesday 16 September 2020
[Philip Davies in the Chair]
Draft Air Quality (Domestic Solid Fuels Standards) (England) Regulations 2020
09:25
Rebecca Pow Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Rebecca Pow)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Air Quality (Domestic Solid Fuels Standards) (England) Regulations 2020.

As ever, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. The draft statutory instrument fulfils an important commitment made in the clean air strategy to tackle harmful emissions from domestic burning and to improve air quality. The national statistics on emissions of air pollutants in the UK, published in February, indicated that the domestic burning of wood and coal was a major source of primary emissions of fine particulate matter in 2018.

Fine particulate matter—so that we all know what we are talking about—was identified by the World Health Organisation as the most damaging pollutant to human health. The tiny particles in smoke can enter the bloodstream and internal organs, causing long-term illness and reduced life expectancy, mainly due to cardiovascular and respiratory diseases, and lung cancer. Given the impact of the pollutant on human health, and taking account of the advice of the World Health Organisation, it is vital that we take action to protect householders and their neighbours.

There are many sources of fine particulate matter in industry, including the transport industry. While we have secured a significant reduction in pollution from those sources, the emissions from domestic burning are increasing. As we said in the clean air strategy, we need to look beyond transport and industry to tackle other sources, including pollution caused by heating our homes. The regulations will make a significant contribution towards reducing emissions of that harmful pollutant.

I will now outline a little of what the SI will do. Before I go further, I will make it clear what will change and what will not change under the legislation because, as you might imagine, Mr Davies, I have had a lot of correspondence from colleagues on this issue. The legislation will apply to domestic burning only; it will not apply to businesses or to the heritage sector. The key change will be to phase out the supply of traditional house coal and wet wood—wood with a moisture content of more than 20% when sold in units up to 2 cubic metres—and to introduce sulphur and smoke emissions limits for manufactured solid fuels. The measures will come into force in a staged process between 1 May 2021 and 2023.

We recognise that many people enjoy using open fires and wood-burning stoves—including me—and we are not looking to stop them. Instead, we want to ensure that people are able to make informed choices and source cleaner fuels to protect the health of their families, neighbours and, indeed, themselves.

The quantity of fine particulate matter released from coal might be lower than that from wood, but we have taken into account the evidence about the level of harm that the particles can cause. The World Health Organisation’s International Agency for Research on Cancer has advised that the smoke from burning coal is a known carcinogen. It has also reported that burning coal can release elements and compounds that are particularly harmful to human health, such as fluorine, arsenic, selenium, mercury and lead—a toxic cocktail that one might breathe in from that smoke.

In the clean air strategy, we committed to take action to reduce people’s exposure to those more harmful pollutants. That is why action on coal is required, in addition to wet wood. The SI will encourage a switch from traditional house coal to smokeless coal and low-sulphur manufactured solid fuels, which will reduce the amount of harmful emissions.

We estimate that wood burned domestically is at least partly wet. Burning wet wood releases significantly more fine particulate matter than burning wood that has been seasoned. Burning seasoned wood also reduces emissions of smoke and soot by up to 50%. I have just texted my son to say, “Will you get those logs chopped and stored?”, because they need to be there for a long time so that they will be dry enough to burn. That is our supply at home. It is important that we consider these things.

On the basis of extensive surveys, we believe that wood sold in smaller units is more likely to be bought for immediate use and to be used by occasional wood burners, who might not be aware of the impacts of burning wet wood. The SI will require that all wood sold in smaller units must have a moisture content of 20% or less, and it will need to be certified and to bear a logo indicating that this is the case.

This legislation encourages traditional household coal users to switch to manufactured solid fuels. We recognise the importance of ensuring that such fuels are made to the cleanest specifications. It is possible to control the amount of sulphur and smoke emitted by manufactured solid fuels, as they are naturally forming; it is not possible to do that with coal. Setting limits on these emissions encourages industry to use the cleanest base materials during the manufacturing process and to avoid unintended consequences resulting from the intended switch in fuels. That is why we are extending the sulphur and smoke requirements that currently apply in smoke control areas across the whole of England. There will be an England-wide 2% sulphur limit and a requirement throughout England for these fuels to emit less than 5 grams of smoke per hour. Again, householders will easily be able to tell whether the fuel meets the requirements, as such fuels will bear a logo to show that they have been tested and certified. We will be taking forward processes to appoint the relevant certification bodies once the legislation has been introduced.

Some people have expressed concern about the potential negative impacts of these measures on those in fuel poverty. We have taken this extremely seriously, and there has been a great deal of work and engagement on this issue. We consider that people in fuel poverty should be protected from the effects of more polluting fuels as much as anyone else. We have taken steps to ensure that people in fuel poverty who are reliant on coal are not adversely affected by these measures. We have commissioned research that demonstrates that, when energy efficiency is taken into account, manufactured solid fuels are actually cheaper than traditional house coal, because they burn much more efficiently.

We also recognise that far more people who are reliant on coal need to be supported in making the change to appropriate alternative fuels. For a transitional period, approved coal merchants will be able to sell loose traditional coal directly to their customers. This will run until May 2023. Coal merchants can use the transitional period to refocus their businesses on the sale of manufactured solid fuels. The transitional period will allow them to work with their customers to help them identify alternative fuels that are cost-effective and that will meet their needs and protect their health in the long run. We have already started the process of working with industry to help coal merchants educate their customers, and we will ramp up this work once the legislation has been introduced.

We have also engaged with colleagues in the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy on the steps that they are taking to address fuel poverty—for example, on the updated fuel poverty strategy for England, which is due to be published later this year. I want to make it clear that people who are entitled to concessionary fuel under BEIS’s national concessionary fuel scheme will remain entitled to it under this legislation. Hon. Members who have old coalmining areas in their constituencies might know about the concessionary allowance—rest assured, people will remain entitled to it under this legislation. Interestingly, over 90% of concessionary fuel recipients receive fuels that would already comply with the new requirements. For the remainder, we will work through approved coal merchants to ensure a smooth transition to alternative fuels that will comply with the new legislation. They will be available at no extra cost.

We understand that small wood producers might struggle to meet the 2% moisture requirement straightaway. Small wood suppliers will therefore have an extra year to comply. The transitional period will cover those producing less than 600 cubic metres of wood a year, as such suppliers might find it difficult to invest in the equipment necessary for seasoning. This will give them time to season their wood down to the required level or to consider changes to their business model.

I am aware that concerns have been raised by those in the heritage railway sector, and I would like to reassure hon. Members that these proposals will not directly apply to heritage sectors. We have had quite a number of meetings with those sectors. There may be implications for how they source their coal, but these draft regulations give them time to adjust to that.

Guidance will be provided for manufacturers, distributors and suppliers of relevant fuels to ensure that they understand the legislation and the requirements around certification, so that they are compliant when these regulations come into force. Separate guidance will also be made available to local authorities, so that their enforcement officers have a clear understanding of the certification scheme and their role in enforcing the regulations.

In closing, this statutory instrument delivers an important component of the clean air strategy and dovetails with measures being brought forward in the forthcoming Environment Bill, which I hope will be back in Committee very soon. The SI will ensure that consumers are armed with reliable information, enabling them to make informed choices to protect themselves, their families and their neighbours.

The SI has been informed by intensive engagement with a wide range of stakeholders. For example, we have worked closely with coal merchants and listened to colleagues in former mining areas to ensure that the switch from coal to manufactured fuels is taken forward with minimum disruption to householders and businesses. We have also worked closely with chimney sweeps, who play a key role here as a trusted source of advice for people with domestic burning appliances. That means that the measures in this SI will deliver environmental benefits and, crucially, protect people’s health. They will also reduce the burden that illness caused by air pollution places on the national health service. I commend the draft regulations to the Committee.

00:02
Ruth Jones Portrait Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Davies. It is also a pleasure to speak on behalf of Her Majesty’s Opposition and to say a few words about the draft Air Quality (Domestic Solid Fuels Standards) (England) Regulations 2020.

As the Minister has said, these draft regulations are designed to restrict the sale of some types of solid fuels used for domestic purposes. The ultimate purpose, so we hear from Ministers, is to improve air quality and prevent the release of harmful air pollutants. Those are noble aims, but the Opposition are very clear: we need real action, not more hot air.

This instrument contains lots of language along the lines of “We are looking”, “We are considering” or “We are working towards”. We do not want Ministers to be “looking”, “considering” or “working towards”; we want, and our planet desperately needs, Ministers to be doing. As colleagues on both sides of the Committee will know, and as the Minister indicated in her comments, the instrument introduces restrictions on the sale of wet wood for domestic burning, limits the emissions of sulphur and smoke from manufactured solid fuels and phases out the sale of bituminous coal. We note further that Ministers have no plans to ban stoves or open fireplaces, but are instead shifting people from more polluting to less polluting fuels. That is a noble aim, but I ask the Minister: what does this mean and how will it work?

I begin by making it clear that we do not oppose the draft regulations. The Opposition recognise that there is a devastating climate emergency, and we want to do something about it. Our major concern is that the Government appear to have neither any real ambition nor the energy required to deliver the bold, history-making, planet-saving agenda that we need to make progress.

This instrument does recognise the importance of clean air and the desperate need to act to tackle England’s toxic levels of air pollution. In oral questions in the Chamber last week, I raised the fact that almost 60% of people in England are now living in areas where levels of toxic air pollution exceeded legal limits last year. We cannot go on as we are, but we do need to take the correct course that delivers real change and we want actions, not fine words.

In preparing for this morning’s debate, Mr Chairman, I had a look through the Government’s summary of responses to the 2018 consultation on air quality. I congratulate the Government on the 500 responses to the consultation but, while the Minister claims it was “intensive”, I am not sure that is the word I would have used. It is not always easy to secure responses to Government consultations, so I must say, it is no surprise that there were more responders from stakeholders in the fuel industry than from the people who will be targeted by the changes to domestic usage in the instrument.

Opposition Members have outlined and discussed a number of concerns, which I will touch on briefly. First, as the Minister knows, there are real-time and long-term costs associated with enforcement. Local authorities in England have had more than a decade of Tory and Lib Dem cuts, which have had a huge impact on their ability to provide basic services. I ask the Minister to set out clearly how, when and what scale of resources will be provided for local councils across England for the enforcement of the proposals. If local authorities do not have the resources they need, they cannot enforce the regulations, and that would be another missed opportunity.

Another major concern is the impact of the changes on people living on low incomes in rural areas right across England. The Minister has touched on that already. Opposition Members are standing up for people across England in small towns and rural communities. We urge the Government to be conscious of what their actions mean for people who may not respond to consultations, but will be forced to respond to the effects.

It will be helpful to know where fossil fuels come into this. This cannot simply be about targeting working people and domestic usage to take the burden of cleaning our air; it is vital that big business plays its part too. It would also be helpful if the Minister explained some of the background to the approach to the exemptions. She mentioned the heritage sector, and the statutory instrument’s associated papers state:

“We intend to grant an exemption to freeminers in the Forest of Dean, given the importance of this activity to local heritage and identity.”

Can the Minister clarify and explain that?

As you can tell by my voice, Mr Davies, it is no secret that I am Welsh, and my constituency of Newport West reinforces that point. I am proud of the fact that this is a United Kingdom and I was interested to read the papers for the statutory instrument. They say that Ministers kept the devolved Administrations informed. I ask Ministers to go a bit further and think about what best practice they can learn, what lessons they can pick up and what decisions they need to heed from devolved Governments in Belfast, Cardiff and Edinburgh.

We cannot continue down the line of government by statutory instrument. Yet again, I ask the Minister: when is the Environment Bill coming back to the House? We have had day one of the Committee and many Opposition Members are raring to go. In fact, they are resting up today and getting ready for it, so that is fine. I know that many of the stakeholders I have spoken to in recent days and weeks are also raring to go. It is an important Bill and we should use that once-in-a-generation legislation to tackle many of these changes. I call on the Government to bring the Bill back to the House.

As I indicated earlier, the Opposition will not oppose the regulations, but that said, we urge the Government to think bold, think big and get to work. We are in desperate need of real action, not empty words.

09:42
Andrew Griffith Portrait Andrew Griffith (Arundel and South Downs) (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, and to follow the hon. Member for Newport West. I shall support the SI today, but with a heavy heart. I came to this House to relieve the regulatory burden on our citizens and on businesses. I regret the fact that, while the aims are more than laudable and the Government have a fine record on seeking to improve the environmental quality of this country, we have not pursued and exhausted every other means in terms of education, working with the supply chain on a voluntary basis and the use of technology such as moisture meters. They would have achieved many of the same aims, but without the legislative sledgehammer that we so often resort to as a first rather than a last resort.

I represent a rural constituency—with fine air quality, I should add—but many of my constituents who are far off the grid and not connected to any other source of heating their homes will be genuinely worried about the impact of the regulations. There is also the timeframe in which they are being introduced. We are sitting here in September 2020 and, in some cases, the legislation bites as early as February 2021, when only an optimist would imagine that we will be fully free of the effects of the pandemic. Regardless of what we think about the SI, it will have a disproportionate impact on our rural citizens.

I put it to my colleagues that, while we should worry about particulates—the nasty, foul substances that imperil the growth, education and attainment of children—with lower bridge capacity to cross the Thames than at any time in the last 120 years, and with congestion on our streets owing to a lack of urban leadership in many of our great urban areas, devoting legislative time to a matter such as this, although I understand and fully respect the Minister’s great work in bringing it to the House, should perhaps not be the Government’s top priority at the moment.

00:00
Rebecca Pow Portrait Rebecca Pow
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs for taking part in the debate, and I of course thank the shadow Minister for her words and analysis of the legislation. As ever, it is a pleasure to work with her, and I welcome the fact that the Opposition will not oppose this statutory instrument. She rightly raises some issues, which I will endeavour to answer.

First, I look forward to introducing legislation that will actually lead to real improvements in air quality and have a positive impact on people’s health. That is what the regulations are all about—health. This is a key part of our clean air strategy and shows the Government’s commitment to the environment.

I will quickly address some of the comments. The shadow Minister asked what the legislation is all about and what it addresses. First, she intimated that we were just going to do more looking, checking and investigating without actually doing anything. Perhaps she was not listening, because we are bringing forward regulations that will genuinely make a difference. We are not doing more looking, checking and reviewing; we have done all that stakeholder engagement, and the clear indication was that the best way forward was to switch people from coal to cleaner fuels and to stop the burning of wet wood. That is what all our looking and checking led us to conclude. There is a great deal of evidence to support that. Maybe she just did not find it when she was searching, but it is definitely there.

The shadow Minister touched on the devolved Administrations. This legislation is for England—the devolveds have their own procedures for dealing with clean air—but we have been in very close contact with them, because air does not have a boundary and it circulates everywhere, so it is important that we keep talking. We will continue to do that, because obviously we all have a duty to improve health, given the desperate situation regarding air quality.

Just to reiterate: the SI is about fine particulate matter, which is a really serious pollutant; it was identified by the World Health Organisation as one of the most damaging air pollutants. Those tiny particles of smoke get into our bloodstream and affect our internal organs, causing long-term health issues, which can be as devastating as cancer and heart problems and can cause asthma attacks. Domestic burning was identified as a major source of this PM emission in the national statistics on emissions of air pollutants in the UK. We have all the data and evidence, which is why we are moving, and I know that, deep down, the shadow Minister supports that.

The shadow Minister made a good point about enforcing legislation. For clarity, enforcement will be undertaken through a mandatory certification scheme, which will be backed up by local authority enforcement. The certification scheme, which is basically producer funded, will see approved products labelled by suppliers with the appropriate logo and certification number, to ensure that the public can easily identify the product—the manufactured solid fuel or dry wood. Retail outlets will only be able to sell fuel that is certified and correctly labelled, and they will be required to store wood so that it contains no more than 20% moisture when sold. We do not want a garage, for example, to store the dry wood with the logo on it outside, where rain might seep in. Those are important matters.

The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs will run an open tender for the contract to run the certification schemes. The appointed certification body or bodies will charge fuel manufacturers a fee, which will cover the cost of administering the scheme, which will include fuel tests, assessment of compliance, and audits. Any fees chargeable will be agreed under the terms of the contract.

Regarding local authorities, the enforcement is intended to be light touch. It will involve checks at retail outlets so that the correct fuels are being sold in compliance with legislation. They will have the certification number and the logo, so it will be straightforward to check that that is all above board. The regulations will make the supply of non-compliant fuels a criminal offence with an unlimited fine. They also provide powers to local authorities to alternatively issue a fixed penalty notice to businesses that supply non-compliant fuels, if they deem that this is appropriate.

We are working closely with local authorities in supporting them through this. The regulations come alongside measures in the Environment Bill that will make it easier for local authorities to tackle air pollution in their areas. That is an important element of the Environment Bill under the air section. We can write to the shadow Minister if she would like more detail on that.

I will quickly touch on the dear old miners in the Forest of Dean, for whom a special exemption has been made. Those freeminers traditionally supply small quantities of coal to local households by virtue of the Dean Forest (Mines) Act 1838 and subsequent legislation. I believe the shadow Minister’s constituency is not far from the Forest of Dean, which is a wonderful place. The exemption is unique to the Forest of Dean. The Act was passed in 1838 and the pits in the area have produced less than 500 tonnes of coal a year, meaning that the volume of coal sold and the impact on air quality is very low.

The shadow Minister stressed the overall aim of tackling air pollution. Our clean air strategy will address all sources of particulate matter, including emissions from agriculture, industry, transport and domestic settings, as well as introducing legislative changes and undertaking research into new technologies that could effectively reduce particulate matter emissions.

Our groundbreaking Environment Bill will protect and improve the environment for future generations, which is absolutely necessary, as the shadow Minister knows. The Bill will improve air quality by setting a duty to introduce a legally binding target to reduce fine particulate matter, which is the most damaging to human health. The target will be among other ambitions worldwide and improve the quality of millions of people’s lives. The Bill will also make it easier for local authorities to tackle air pollution from domestic solid fuel burning by providing powers to issue civic penalties, i.e. fines, for smoke emissions from chimneys in smoke control areas, rather than prosecuting in court. I hope that answers all the shadow Minister’s queries.

I want to touch on the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs—a beautiful, rural area, as he described. We have taken into account the issue of rural areas, where a lot of people are off grid and have stoves and fires. The regulations will not prevent them from using those at all. They just ask them to move on to less polluting fuels, manufactured solid fuels or dry wood. Many people store their wood, season it for one year and burn it the next year. That is absolutely fine. They could get a little hand auditor to test the moisture. They are cheap and easily available.

My hon. Friend touched on education, which was a good point. Why are we legislating? Why do we not do it through education? I cite the carrier bag issue. We tried to get people voluntarily to reduce their use of carrier bags, but the paradigm shift, in terms of billions of bags, was caused by the 5p charge that was introduced through legislation. That is one example of how educating does not always work, but it plays a big part. We are working with chimney sweeps and coal merchants to give all that background to our rural constituents so that they understand what is going on. I hope that clarifies the matter. I thank him for raising those issues because many people have raised them, and we have gone to a great deal of effort to cover them.

I hope that covers everything. The regulations will phase out the supply of the most polluting fuels used in domestic burning and have a real impact on air quality. People will still be able to enjoy their open fires and wood-burning stoves. The Labour party suggested that it would ban all those. We are not doing that; we are just moving people on to cleaner fuel. They will be able to do that with confidence, knowing that they are using cleaner fuels and protecting the health of their families, their neighbours, the wider environment and themselves. I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

09:55
Committee rose.

Draft Representation of the People (Electoral Registers Publication Date) Regulations 2020

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

General Committees
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Committee consisted of the following Members:
Chair: †Mrs Maria Miller
† Bell, Aaron (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con)
Betts, Mr Clive (Sheffield South East) (Lab)
Cates, Miriam (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con)
† Eastwood, Mark (Dewsbury) (Con)
† Fletcher, Colleen (Coventry North East) (Lab)
† Gibson, Peter (Darlington) (Con)
† Hunt, Jane (Loughborough) (Con)
† Linden, David (Glasgow East) (SNP)
Mearns, Ian (Gateshead) (Lab)
† Rutley, David (Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty's Treasury)
† Smith, Cat (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab)
† Smith, Chloe (Minister of State, Cabinet Office)
Timms, Stephen (East Ham) (Lab)
† Wakeford, Christian (Bury South) (Con)
† Wheeler, Mrs Heather (South Derbyshire) (Con)
† Winter, Beth (Cynon Valley) (Lab)
† Wright, Jeremy (Kenilworth and Southam) (Con)
Zoe Backhouse, Committee Clerk
† attended the Committee
The following also attended, pursuant to Standing Order No. 118(2):
Kruger, Danny (Devizes) (Con)
Ninth Delegated Legislation Committee
Wednesday 16 September 2020
[Mrs Maria Miller in the Chair]
Draft Representation of the People (Electoral Registers Publication Date) Regulations 2020
09:25
Chloe Smith Portrait The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Chloe Smith)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Representation of the People (Electoral Registers Publication Date) Regulations 2020.

It is an absolute pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Mrs Miller. I welcome you to your position on the Panel of Chairs.

The regulations follow on from my announcement in a written ministerial statement in June that, in the light of the many challenges posed by the covid-19 pandemic, we intended to introduce legislation to delay the deadline for the publication of this year’s revised parliamentary and English local government registers by two months, from 1 December to 1 February. I will briefly run through what we are doing and why before I take questions from the Committee.

The annual canvass, which is run by electoral registration officers in each local authority, is, as I am sure hon. Members know, an information-gathering exercise that ordinarily runs for five months from 1 July to 1 December. The aim is to ensure that the electoral registers are as complete and accurate as possible. The information gathered during the canvass is used to identify electors who should be deleted from the registers for reasons such as death, ineligibility, or moving address. It also identifies eligible citizens who are not on the register and should therefore be invited to register. The process of inviting to register involves a separate form to the canvass: a process with which I think hon. Members are familiar.

The revised register is then published on or before 1 December, normally with an exception if, for example, an election is held in the ERO’s area during that period. In that exceptional case, the final deadline is automatically delayed to 1 February the following year. Today’s legislation allows flexibility, but follows in some ways the shape of the December to February exceptional approach. The regulations give the EROs an additional two months to conduct their work should they need that due to the challenges caused by the pandemic. They will still be able to publish before 1 February if they want to, which is still in line with current legislation.

I want to touch on the impact of some other reforms that we have made to the annual canvass as a result of the secondary legislation that we introduced last autumn, as hon. Members will remember. Certainly the elections team in this room—we see a lot of each other—will be very familiar with what we are doing to reform the annual canvass so that it moves away from a cumbersome one-size-fits-all paper-based system to a more modern and adaptable model in which registration officers are able to focus their resources where they are most needed and use more modern communication methods, which is convenient for voters as well as a sensible use of resources.

Thanks to the reforms, this year’s annual canvass is already allowing EROs to conduct safer and more responsive canvasses than ever before. The canvass still involves a certain amount of paperwork and paper responses, and, where phone calls are impossible, door-knocking still applies if a household has not responded to previous attempts to contact them. The in-person contacts and paper elements are still important in ensuring the completeness and accuracy of our electoral registers and cannot be discounted.

In spite of the impact that covid-19 has had so far, the 2020 annual canvass under the reformed system is successfully and safely under way. The roll-out of the new data matching in the reformed system has been impressive and helpful. I want to put on the record my thanks to all the registration officers who have done that work, and I thank them for their continuing dedication and hard work, despite the challenges.

As I say, there are still in-person and paper elements that need to be considered, given the concerns about the impact of covid-19 on ways of working, so we have been speaking to electoral registration officers to see how they can best be met. A number of options were raised for overcoming that challenge: for example, arguments for cancelling the canvass entirely or for removing the in-person contact entirely could be envisaged. We think that the regulations are the better option, allowing for the completeness and accuracy of registers to continue to be prioritised, but also allowing registration officers the flexibility to complete the overall project as safely as they can, using the various methods that they think necessary, and with two months’ additional time in hand.

We have, of course, consulted with others for this, working in close co-operation with the public health agencies in England, Wales and Scotland. We have already issued guidance to electoral registration officers for carrying out a covid-19-secure canvass. My officials at the Cabinet Office are closely monitoring the situation across the country to provide any further non-legislative support that may be needed. Altogether, those actions—in concert with extending the deadline, as the regulations will—give EROs the flexibility and support to deliver the first-class public service that we ask of them for our local areas.

I put on the record that the Electoral Commission, the Association of Electoral Administrators, the Scottish Assessors Association—try saying that one too early in the morning, Mrs Miller—the Local Government Association and the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives have all expressed their support for the legislation. I thank my counterparts in the Scottish and Welsh Governments for their proactive and positive engagement on the issue. They have each brough forward complementary legislation in their legislatures to apply the same delay to the deadline for publication of their local government registers. I think that is a good and welcome example of our Administrations working in partnership on a sensible measure.

To conclude, the instrument will provide the flexibility needed to run a secure canvass without compromising on completeness and accuracy, and will do so in what I hope will be a well-supported manner behind the scenes. I commend the regulations to the Committee.

None Portrait The Chair
- Hansard -

Before I call Cat Smith for the Opposition, I remind the Committee that these are very specific regulations, and speeches should reflect that.

09:32
Cat Smith Portrait Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

Thank you, Mrs Miller; it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, and I congratulate you on your appointment to the Panel of Chairs. It is a pleasure to have the Front-Bench election teams back together again.

I want to start by making it clear that the Labour party will not oppose the regulations. We welcome the steps that have been taken to give electoral registration officers flexibility in carrying out the annual canvass and publishing electoral registers. The two-month delay of the final deadline is a reasonable step in the circumstances. I put on the record my thanks to EROs, who do an incredibly difficult and stressful job at the best of times, but in the current context, they are doing an incredibly challenging job in difficult times. Asking them to complete the annual canvass to the usual strict deadline during a global pandemic would, of course, have been entirely unfair. The measures are practical and necessary given the health emergency that we face.

I would urge a slight word of caution: an annual canvass has not been completed since the new reform was brought in, and I have serious concerns and questions about whether that light-touch approach to electoral registration could leave troubling gaps in the electoral register. The changes could jeopardise the primary purpose of the annual canvass, which is to ensure that the electoral register is as accurate and complete as possible.

Of course, we know that there are huge issues with electoral registration: in the region of 9 million eligible voters are incorrectly registered and are denied the chance to vote. Will the Minister outline the action that she has taken to remedy that situation and to address the fact that there is a race disparity between different groups in electoral registration? White people are most likely to be on the register, at 84%. According to the Electoral Reform Society, that can drop to nearly 40% for people from other ethnic backgrounds, and of course, millions could join them in being denied their chance to vote if the Government’s voter identity plans come to fruition.

These are all inter-related and vital issues for the integrity of our democracy. I welcome the pragmatic steps taken in this legislation, but there remain some wider trends in electoral registration and participation that the Government must urgently address.

09:35
David Linden Portrait David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Miller, and—as other hon. Members have said—to get the gang back together. It does feel like we see quite a lot of each other these days, but I am sure that will change at some point.

The impact of covid-19 on the UK has been vast, impacting almost every facet of our daily lives, but one area that we cannot let this pandemic impact is our democracy. With the 2021 elections looming across these islands, it is vital that EROs have the full support of the Government, and the ability to carry out their annual canvass with as much time as necessary. We know that covid will certainly affect the ability of EROs to conduct the canvass in the usual five-month time frame, as it is still vital that we all follow social distancing measures and covid-19 guidelines. Therefore, precautions must be put in place to ensure that EROs are able to carry out that essential work, so the regulations before the Committee are ones that should be supported. If they are not supported, EROs in England, Scotland and Wales would face prosecution if they did not manage to complete this process by 1 December. When I was looking at the regulations, I did wonder why 1 February was chosen, rather than 1 March. I suspect it is probably to do with some of the other timescales as we head towards the May elections, but if the Minister could place that on the record, that would be very good.

Increased digitalisation will certainly help ensure that this year’s annual canvass will be safer and more responsive than ever before. However, each year the canvass involves large amounts of paper responses, alongside officers continuing to call people on the phone and sometimes even door-knocking when a household has not responded to any of the previous attempts to contact them. With EROs still needing to sort through paper responses and answer the phones, it is necessary for them to work socially distanced in an office space. With limited numbers allowed, the work will naturally take longer to complete, so it does strike me that the measure before the Committee is a fair one.

Ultimately, the covid-19 pandemic has caused unmitigated challenges for everybody in the UK; however, we cannot risk letting our democracy become impacted by this pandemic. We have to ensure that EROs are able to complete their canvasses while obeying Government guidelines and observing social distancing. My party therefore supports the regulations before the Committee, and we wish EROs well as they carry on their services to uphold the democracy we all cherish.

09:37
Chloe Smith Portrait Chloe Smith
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank my Front-Bench counterparts for their remarks. To deal with the simplest of the questions, the 1 February date was chosen instead of 1 March because, as I mentioned earlier, that timetable is already contained in the normal operation of this process. A delay to 1 February is sometimes already familiar to EROs, so we thought it would be most supportive to use a familiar pattern, rather than opting for 1 March. I ought to add that the elections that will occur in May next year will be larger than usual, because of the highly unusual and difficult precaution of delaying the 2020 elections to 2021 in large parts of the country. It is therefore all the more important to be ready for those elections, and I hope that this measure balances the need to be ready for them with the flexibility needed for this year.

I note that the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood echoed arguments made about canvass reform. I would encourage her to evolve those views, as her colleagues in the Welsh Government have done—they have been supportive of our proposals, and indeed worked with us on them for many years, as have counterparts in the Scottish Government. They are supportive because those canvass reform proposals allow precious public resources to be used precisely for those electors who might be least likely to be registered. They allow EROs to seek those people out more than they had been able to do using the previous, more cumbersome methods in the canvass. That is a good thing, and fundamentally answers some of the hon. Lady’s other concerns about those who might currently be missing from the electoral register and ought to be welcomed on to it. Canvass reform helps with that, rather than hinders it, and I hope she will be able to recognise that in due course.

None the less, though, I thank the hon. Lady for her support of this morning’s measure. I think we are all agreed that this is a pragmatic measure that commands support, and I therefore commend it to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

09:40
Committee rose.

Education (Guidance about Costs of School Uniforms) Bill (First sitting)

Committee stage & Committee Debate: House of Commons
Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Public Bill Committees
Read Full debate Education (Guidance about Costs of School Uniforms) Act 2021 View all Education (Guidance about Costs of School Uniforms) Act 2021 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Committee consisted of the following Members:
Chair: Caroline Nokes
† Aiken, Nickie (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)
† Amesbury, Mike (Weaver Vale) (Lab)
† Anderson, Fleur (Putney) (Lab)
† Barker, Paula (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab)
† Butler, Rob (Aylesbury) (Con)
† Daly, James (Bury North) (Con)
† Davies-Jones, Alex (Pontypridd) (Lab)
Eshalomi, Florence (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op)
† Gibb, Nick (Minister for School Standards)
† Green, Chris (Bolton West) (Con)
† Greenwood, Margaret (Wirral West) (Lab)
† Johnston, David (Wantage) (Con)
† Mann, Scott (North Cornwall) (Con)
† Morrissey, Joy (Beaconsfield) (Con)
† Richardson, Angela (Guildford) (Con)
† Rimmer, Ms Marie (St Helens South and Whiston) (Lab)
† Wood, Mike (Dudley South) (Con)
Adam Mellows-Facer, Committee Clerk
† attended the Committee
Public Bill Committee
Wednesday 16 September 2020
[Caroline Nokes in the Chair]
Education (Guidance About Costs of School Uniforms) Bill
09:25
None Portrait The Chair
- Hansard -

Before we begin, I have a few preliminary announcements. You will all understand the rules on social distancing. If necessary, I will intervene to remind you, but you are all sitting beautifully apart from each other—thank you for that. Note-passing should be electronic only. The Hansard Reporters would be most grateful if Members would send any speaking notes to them electronically via hansardnotes@parliament.uk. The selection list for today’s sitting is available in the room—I am sorry that it arrived somewhat late. No amendments have been tabled, and I intend there to be a single debate on both clauses of the Bill. We shall now begin line-by-line consideration of the Bill.

Clause 1

Guidance about the costs of school uniforms: England

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

None Portrait The Chair
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With this it will be convenient to discuss clause 2 stand part.

Mike Amesbury Portrait Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab)
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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Nokes. It certainly seems a long time since Second Reading. The Bill passed that hurdle only 10 days before the UK went into lockdown. Even then, I could not have imagined that it would be six months before it came to Committee. The Bill has woken in a different world, but the events of recent months make it more important than ever that we get it through Parliament and that the Government bring forward the new statutory guidance.

Considering the amount of correspondence I have received from across the country, thousands of children, parents, carers and schools will be glad to hear that the Bill has made another step towards becoming law. Many families in our constituencies have faced large cuts in household budgets. Many are out of work for the first time. With the support of the Minister and members of the Committee, the Bill will provide a much-needed helping hand as we transition out of the covid-19 crisis.

I reiterate that I am decidedly pro school uniform, and so is the Bill. I went to a secondary school that did not have a uniform, and I do not believe that that was a positive thing. I believe instead in the power of the uniform to be a great leveller. A well-designed, thoughtful uniform policy can work out considerably cheaper for parents and carers than having no uniform at all. A uniform helps pupils to learn in an environment away from the pressures of the latest trends and fads in fashion. However, some school uniform policies are failing students and undermining the very principle of having a uniform at all.

The purpose of the Bill is not to water down uniform policies or to start a slippery slope towards the end of the school uniform entirely. It is instead to ensure that uniforms are maintained as a way to help children’s education. Uniforms do not do that if students are forced to wear ill-fitting uniforms, or if pupils go without meals or miss school because their parents simply cannot afford the cost of a uniform.

The Bill is very short. It would simply ensure that the Government bring in statutory guidance on the cost of uniforms. I seek from the Minister an assurance that if the Bill completes its journey through Parliament swiftly, he will aim to have the guidance in place for the next school year. That is six years after the Government originally promised statutory guidance. Because of its brevity, I also request that the Government quickly publish a draft form of the guidance.

There is a lot to like about the current guidance, which I believe will form the basis of the new guidance. Within it are several elements that I would like to see kept or in some cases strengthened. First, the importance of affordability must be centre stage. The current guidance states that schools should give high priority to cost considerations. I would like clarity on how that particular aspect will be continued once the guidance has a statutory footing.

Another important element that must be expanded on is the prevalence of excess branding on school uniforms. One parent, Lisa, contacted me about her experience of the cost of her child’s uniform, which must be purchased from a single supplier. When comparing the cost of the items with very similar school items bought at a supermarket chain, she found that it was at least £180 more. Pushing up the price were custom shirts, logoed shirts, polos and pullovers, an extensive logoed PE kit and—my favourite of all favourites—branded school socks.

Rob Butler Portrait Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con)
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I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on getting the Bill to this stage. I was pleased to speak in support of it at Second Reading. On his point about individual suppliers, does he accept, though, that there are many responsible suppliers of school uniform who are very keen to supply affordable clothes? An example is the company in my constituency called the Print Lab. It supplies 22 schools, and its total cost for a branded uniform is £107.50, so there are people in the business who want to do the right thing.

Mike Amesbury Portrait Mike Amesbury
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I thank the hon. Member for that intervention, and I concur. There is a school uniform manufacturer in my constituency called Buccaneer, which certainly provides good-quality and very competitive products for the school environment. Its frustration is the limited access that it has in the marketplace at the moment.

Compounding Lisa’s case was the fact that pupils had to buy pullovers and polos with their house colours embroidered on them. That limits the ability of families and friends to use hand-me-downs. Lisa found that many parents she knew, who were often unwilling to discuss the financial difficulties, were worried about how they would afford the school uniforms in the coming school year. That indignity, as I am sure Members across the Committee Room would agree, needs to end.

The current guidance encourages schools to keep compulsory branded items to a minimum, but the issue of excess branding has dominated my inbox since I announced my intention to introduce this Bill. I have come to strongly believe that no more than two branded items are necessary for a school to establish a sense of identity, and I would like to see that included in the guidance. Other elements could, for example, be sewn on or provided as badges. I look forward to the Minister’s response on that issue, as I know that it is not straightforward.

Another key element of the guidance will be how it deals with the issue of single suppliers and the tendering process. The current Department for Education guidance stipulates that exclusive single-supplier contracts should be avoided unless regular, transparent tendering competitions are run whereby more than one supplier can compete for the contract and governing bodies can secure the best value for parents and carers. In too many cases—Members will be familiar with this—that simply is not happening. That is shutting good, competitive manufacturers such as—I will mention it again—Buccaneer in my constituency out of the marketplace. That is limiting choice and increasing costs.

One parent from Bristol emailed me to say that although several suppliers sell a brand of trousers that his son’s primary school requires, the school stated just this summer that the trousers can be purchased only from one particular supplier and must now be embroidered by that supplier to prove where they were purchased. That comes alongside the need for a branded polo shirt and sweatshirt, which, again, can be purchased only from a single supplier. I do not see how this arrangement can stand up to competition laws. Indeed, the Competition and Markets Authority has contacted me regarding the Bill, having long been concerned about the practices of many schools.

Several avenues have been suggested by the Department for Education. One is to do away with single-supplier arrangements completely to ensure competition. Another option, based on the current guidance, is to ensure that regular, transparent tendering processes take place. That part of the statutory guidance should be looked at very carefully. Despite the clear guidance from the Department for Education and the warnings from the CMA, some schools continue with utterly opaque practices that do not ensure value for money or easy availability of uniform for parents. Without clear directions, these practices will simply continue.

Finally, one aspect of the guidance that I know the Minister believes in very strongly is around sustainability. We should encourage people to reuse uniforms and suppliers to make lasting, sustainable clothing. However, I do not want that approach to become an alternative to making sure that school uniforms are affordable first hand to pupils. I have been contacted by many volunteers across the country who run excellent uniform banks in their local areas. I respect their work hugely, but they themselves will say that parents should not have to rely on charity to afford school uniforms, and they strongly support the measures outlined in the Bill. None the less, schools should be required to provide parents with regularly updated information about second-hand suppliers, school swap shops and clothing banks, as well as information on locally available grants. I would like to see that requirement included in the statutory guidance.

I look forward to hearing the Minister’s reply and other Members’ contributions, and to working with everyone here and the Department over the coming months.

James Daly Portrait James Daly (Bury North) (Con)
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I agree with every word that the hon. Member for Weaver Vale said. However, I am afraid that the lawyer in me is coming out with respect to some parts of what has been said.

One is affordability. From what I understand, although the guidance will be provided by the Government, affordability will still be decided by the governing body. If, for example, a parent or whoever it may be believes that the governing body is not acting in line with Government guidance regarding affordability, in that the uniform is still too expensive for many parents, I would be interested to hear how they could challenge the decision of the governing body.

I welcome the hon. Member’s comments regarding affordability, but how do we define it? How does a governing body define it? Is it in respect of the mean income of the parents in the school? Is it in respect of the lowest income of parents in the school? A lot of my constituents and a lot of his constituents are on state benefits, so affordability for them is very different from what it is for parents on higher incomes.

However, those are just questions. I congratulate the hon. Member on the Bill, which is excellent, and I was glad, like my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury, to be there on Second Reading.

Alex Davies-Jones Portrait Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab)
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Diolch, Ms Nokes. It is an honour to serve under your chairship. It is also an honour to be on this Bill Committee, and I pay tribute to the fantastic work that my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale has done on an issue that he has advocated for passionately for a long time.

The cost of school uniforms is a huge issue for many families across the UK, and it is vital that the UK Government are committed to producing statutory guidance for families in England, which will allow them greater choice about where they can buy their children’s uniform.

Members may wonder why I, as a Welsh MP, would want to be involved in a Bill Committee on a topic that is so clearly devolved to our fantastic Welsh Labour Government. As you will know, Ms Nokes, I am nothing if not persistent in my ambition to shamelessly support the work of the Welsh Labour Government at any opportunity. Members may have heard the tried and tested phrase, “Where Wales leads, England follows.” The Welsh Government published statutory guidance to make school uniforms more affordable, accessible and gender-neutral more than a year ago, which is a prime example of that very accurate phrase in action.

Governing bodies of schools in Wales are now expected to consider ways of keeping down the cost of uniforms. The Welsh Government’s pupil deprivation grant, plus additional school uniform guidance, are designed to help reduce the burden on families so that children can focus on fulfilling their potential at school. The guidelines include stipulating the basic items and colours, but not styles, which allows parents to buy items of uniform from more than one outlet. The Department for Education must afford parents in England the same flexibility, and affordability must be a top priority when setting uniform policy.

Fleur Anderson Portrait Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab)
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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Nokes. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale on securing the Bill and on his long advocacy on this issue.

The Bill will make affordability the priority consideration in statutory guidance, which will go a long way towards levelling up our treatment of uniforms, which has been slipping in many ways. My eldest child went to school in 2001, a long time ago; my youngest is in school for four more years—four more years of buying uniform. That has been a lot of uniform along the way. In that time, I have seen the creeping number and cost of additional items that need to be bought for uniform, inconsistency between schools and the incremental use of “My uniform costs more than yours” as a proxy for better school standards, in order to attract students to academies.

When my youngest child went into year 7, his uniform bill was an eye-watering £468.50. It could only be bought from one school uniform shop. I had to top it up recently—he has unfortunately grown a lot—and that cost another £200. Those figures are unsustainable for many families. I support school uniform guidance that ensures that there is less branded, expensive uniform, which drives many families into debt; that provides for not so many exclusive suppliers, who do not put affordability at the top of the list; and that ensures that good-quality, own-brand supermarket choices can be made and that clothes swaps are easy.

The Bill is for that mum who, when I was looking round the local comprehensive for my children, sat down in front of me, picked up the uniform bill, looked at her son, shook her head and walked away from the school. He was not able to go to that school because of the cost. There are many families who face those choices.

The Bill is for those families who I took on trips last summer when I was running a youth group. I sat down and talked with the mums. They said that they had not been able to afford any other trips with their children because they were saving the money and that they were eating less during the summer because they knew the uniform bill was coming—that dreaded moment in September was coming, when they would have to go to the uniform shop.

The Bill is for governors and parents. It will put them back in the driving seat, able to challenge the school uniform bill. It is for our comprehensive education system; it will strengthen uniform policy so that all children feel equal—so that there is less difference between children, for which they can be bullied and because of which they often miss school.

I seek assurance from the Minister that he will work with the Children’s Society, which has talked with many parents and strongly represents them, on the guidance. I seek assurances that the guidance will include details on how parents and governors can use it to challenge the system in their school—it must give them that ability—and will clearly state how they can do so. I seek assurance that it will provide more choice for parents, so that they are able to put affordability at the top of the list, and that there will transparency for single-supplier tenders, focused on best value, through either regular reporting to governors or looking at the system overall. One primary school in my constituency insists that uniform can be bought only from a department store in Sloane Square, for example.

Minimising branded items is an absolutely fundamental part of the guidance, as is the need to promote school uniform banks and grants, so that even before a parent comes to a school, they can see in the guidance where help is available if they know that this will be a difficult issue for them. Finally, I hope that the guidance will come out soon, in good time for schools to readjust their policies for the next school year.

09:45
Nickie Aiken Portrait Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)
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I would like to add my support to the Bill, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Weaver Vale for bringing it forward, which is important. As a mum of two schoolchildren, I have lived the school uniform life. I am delighted that my daughter has now gone into the sixth form, where they do not have a uniform policy—I enjoy the morning fashion shows.

However, my son is still in school uniform. Yes, we need to make it cost-effective and allow families of all shapes and sizes and from all walks of life and social and economic backgrounds to be able to afford it, but this is about quality as well. My experience is that a blazer for my daughter lasted five years, and that my son’s blazer lasted one year. It is about quality; we have to ensure that, although these things are cheap, they last. It is important to ensure that school uniform providers provide quality, as well as ensuring that uniforms are sold at a reasonable price.

Many school sixth forms now insist on some type of school uniform, which might be suits, particularly for boys. Again, that is a big added cost for families. In my constituency, a group of parents from Pimlico Academy has been campaigning on this issue. I understand that the school changed its policy recently and gave parents only about two weeks’ notice. The parents are concerned that this is an added financial burden for them at this moment, particularly for many who are on furlough or who have lost their jobs.

I absolutely support the ethos of the Bill, and I welcome the fact that the Government can, hopefully, ensure that families can afford decent, high-quality school uniform for their children throughout their school years.

Margaret Greenwood Portrait Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab)
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It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Nokes. I pay tribute to the work of my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale for his work on the Bill, and I congratulate him on the success he has had with it thus far. The Bill had its First reading on 5 March and passed its Second Reading on 13 March without a Division. Current guidance on school uniform for governing bodies, school leaders, school staff and local authorities was published in September 2013 and is non-statutory. Consequently, there are currently no binding rules on school uniforms in England.

The Bill would impose a statutory duty on the Secretary of State to issue guidance to the appropriate authorities of relevant schools in England on the costs aspects of school uniform policies. It would ensure that the appropriate authority of a relevant school must have regard to guidance issued by the Secretary of State when developing and implementing a school uniform policy for a school.

The Opposition support the Bill and have long talked about poverty-proofing schools. Indeed, tackling the cost of school uniforms is one of the ways we feel that that can be achieved. It is pleasing, too, that the Government support the Bill, and I am encouraged that the schools Minister has talked about how the Bill

“will positively improve the lives of families across this country.”––[Official Report, 13 March 2020; Vol. 673, c. 584.]

Research shows not only the high cost of school uniforms, but the vastly increased cost of school uniforms over the past few years. For example, research by the Department for Education in 2015 showed that the average total expenditure on school uniform for the 2014-15 school year up to the end of February 2015 was £212.88. Parents responding to a Children’s Society survey in March this year said that they spent an average of around £337 on secondary school uniform each year. Parents of primary school children say that they are now paying as much as £315 a child per year. With that in mind, families with three children could be paying around £1,000 a year just to send them to school in the right uniform.

It is deeply concerning that high uniform costs are putting additional strain on family finances. The Children’s Society says that 13% of families reported that they had cut back on food and other essentials because of the cost of uniforms. The impact is even greater for low-income families, with 23% saying that they had to cut back. That is a wholly unacceptable state of affairs.

The Children’s Society further noted that children had been bullied, felt left out or even been excluded from schools for wearing incorrect uniform.

On Second Reading, the Minister said that the Government will be producing statutory guidance on the cost aspect of school uniforms that makes it clear to both parents and schools that uniforms must be affordable and value for money. Can the Minister set out what specifically he considers to be the cost aspect of uniform policy? Will he ensure that parents are able to exercise choice when it comes to deciding where to buy uniforms for their children? Will it address the issue of transparency of single-supplier arrangements?

The non-statutory guidance states:

“Exclusive single supplier contracts should be avoided unless regular tendering competitions are run where more than one supplier can compete for the contract and where best value for parents is secured.”

How will that issue be dealt with in the new guidance?

Will the guidance address the issue of branding and school logos? The current non-statutory guidance states:

“Schools should keep compulsory branded items to a minimum and avoid specifying expensive items of uniform.”

Does the Minister believe that goes far enough?

The Minister said on Second Reading that the Government

“will be engaging…with key stakeholders to understand their views as statutory guidance on uniform costs is drafted.”—[Official Report, 13 March 2020; Vol. 673, c. 586.]

Which key stakeholders will the Government engage with and when will this engagement take place? Will draft guidance be developed and published before the Bill completes its passage through the House of Commons? What will happen if schools do not comply with the new statutory guidance once it has been published? Can the Minister assure the Committee that guidance will be specific and clear, so that those that it applies to are left in no doubt about their obligations?

Schools play a vital part in local communities, and many already provide help and support to families to signpost them to agencies where they can get financial and practical support. Will the Minister ensure that the new guidance contains the requirement for schools to regularly make information available on local grants and other schemes available to help families with the cost of uniform?

Nick Gibb Portrait The Minister for School Standards (Nick Gibb)
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It is a pleasure to serve for the first time under your careful chairing of the Committee, Ms Nokes. I congratulate the hon. Member for Weaver Vale on introducing the Bill and on its progression to this stage. It is not a small achievement to get a private Member’s Bill to Committee, and I look forward to continuing to work with him on this important issue.

School uniforms are important. Since 2013 we have published guidance encouraging schools to have a uniform because it plays a valuable role in the ethos of the school, instilling a sense of a belonging and setting an appropriate tone for education. As my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan Gullis) has said elsewhere, uniform is a leveller between pupils, ensuring that families do not face pressures to buy expensive clothing—the morning fashion show, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster so aptly put it. Uniform helps to deliver routine and structure. As the hon. Member for Weaver Vale said, it moves away from an obsession with the latest trends and fads in fashion. These are all good points about why we believe school uniform is important.

The Government are committed to making uniform affordable. The existing school uniform guidance covers a wide range of issues, one of which is cost. It makes it clear that no school uniform should be so expensive as to leave pupils or their families feeling unable to apply to or attend a school of their choice due to the cost of the uniform. I was taken by the point made by the hon. Member for Putney about the parent she met who was not applying to a school because of concerns over the cost of the uniform.

We welcome the opportunity, through the Bill, to put the cost aspects of the guidance on to a statutory footing. This is a simple Bill that is wholly supportive of school uniform and the many positive benefits that it brings to a school community. As the hon. Member for Weaver Vale said, he is “decidedly pro school uniform” and so is this Bill. It places a duty on the Secretary of State to issue statutory guidance on the cost aspects of school uniform to which the appropriate authorities of relevant schools in England must have regard when developing and implementing their school uniform policy, and it allows the Secretary of State to revise this guidance from time to time. This is absolutely the right way to establish a statutory underpinning to the guidance, which emphasises the vital importance of cost considerations while empowering schools to make decisions that work for their parents and pupils, with the flexibility for schools to respond to local issues as needed. It underlines that school-level decisions should be taken by school leaders and school governing bodies, informed by a dialogue with parents and pupils.

I know that some members of the Committee are keen to know the Government’s intentions for the statutory guidance that will be issued under the provisions of the Bill. Our non-statutory guidance is clear on three points: first, school uniform should be easily available for parents to purchase; secondly, schools should keep compulsory branded items to a minimum; and thirdly, exclusive single-supplier contracts should be avoided unless regular tendering competitions are run where more than one supplier can compete for the contract and where best value for parents can be secured. The starting point for the statutory guidance on the cost aspects of school uniform will therefore be the cost elements of the existing non-statutory guidance.

The hon. Member for Weaver Vale advocated applying a set limit to the number of branded items that a school may include in its policy. The current guidance is clear that schools should keep the number of branded items to a minimum. The Government believe that that sets a clear expectation that allows schools to take sensible decisions in their own contexts, but I do not consider setting a specific limit to be the best approach.

Mike Amesbury Portrait Mike Amesbury
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I said on Second Reading and today that I welcome the fact that the current voluntary guidance talks about a “minimum” amount of branding, but what is a minimum? How do we define it, given some of the practices that are happening up and down the country as we speak?

Nick Gibb Portrait Nick Gibb
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The hon. Member makes a very good point. I will come to enforcement in a moment, and to the concerns that parents might have if they feel that the school has not implemented the guidance, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North mentioned, but I wish also to refer to the argument about setting a figure. My hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South (Andrew Lewer) wrote in the Daily Express in June that setting such inflexible limits on branded items might

“force schools to cut back…on distinctive, branded items such as striped blazers and house colours etc.”,

which are an important part of the ethos of a school. He fears that setting a specific number of items might well drive out school uniform altogether.

There are many views about what constitutes a branded item, from a garment with an emblem printed or embroidered on it or a plain garment on which a badge can be sewn, to a bespoke garment without any school emblem but where the style or design is nevertheless distinct to that school. As one headteacher said to me, it can also be important for maintaining behaviour standards in schools. The costs associated with different types of branded or bespoke items are very different, which is exactly what I want schools to take into account when they agree school uniform policies, rather than simply conforming to a limit on the number of branded items and potentially ignoring the impact of more expensive bespoke items.

I do not think it is the role of Government to set a numerical limit on the number of branded items in any school uniform. The principle should be that it is the role of Government and Parliament to set a framework and then to respect the autonomy of decision making at a local level. On a practical level, I do not think that such a limit would work. Would it apply to everyday wear for pupils or would there be separate limits for day wear and PE kit, for instance? What about bespoke items that do not include a school logo? How could they be sensibly and clearly defined for a hard numerical limit? For those reasons, a numerical limit is less practical and less likely to have the intended effect than a requirement to keep the number of branded and bespoke items to a minimum.

I do not believe that we should ban single-supplier arrangements for the supply of school uniform, but they should be transparent and competitive, securing best value for parents. On Second Reading, Members on both sides of the House provided a number of examples of such arrangements working for the benefit of both the school and parents. The Government are clear on the role of single suppliers. Often those are small and medium-sized businesses that play an important role in supporting schools and parents. They are the familiar face of school uniform on our high streets and should not be undervalued in that role.

00:09
Properly tendered single-supplier contracts can ensure a year-round supply of a full range of sizes, and secure economies of scale, as my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury pointed out. Suppliers can be given fairer access to markets. Costs can be made fairer for parents, and schools can be sure their uniforms represent the best value for money, including on the issue of quality, as pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster.
Mike Amesbury Portrait Mike Amesbury
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I think that that is key, really, in ensuring that there is competition and tenders are dealt with in a transparent, organised way. At the moment in far too many areas there has been a historical arrangement based on a nudge and a wink, which has driven up costs. Where there is a single-supplier arrangement, it is key that it should be subject to a tender arrangement.

Nick Gibb Portrait Nick Gibb
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I agree. To achieve best value the contracts need to be subject to effective competitive and transparent tendering. Indeed, that is why the current non-statutory guidance already recommends that schools avoid exclusive single-supplier contracts unless a regular competitive tendering process is run to secure best value for parents. There is an argument for considering whether more could be done to make it clearer for schools what effective competitive tendering means in practice.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bury North raised the issue of enforcement, and I want to address that. Where parents have concerns about a school’s uniform policy they should raise them with the school in the first instance, via its complaints procedures, which must be published on its website. If their concerns have not been addressed effectively through that process the parents can then raise them with the Department. We would seek to take a proportionate approach to any intervention, depending, of course, on the circumstances of the case.

Fleur Anderson Portrait Fleur Anderson
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Would it be possible for the tendering process to have to be reported to the school governors? Many parents do not feel that they can make an internal complaint, because they feel it would come back on their children for some reason. Would the Minister consider a process enabling the parents to be kept out of it, but where it was necessary to report to the governors? That would enable the governors to look at the tendering process whenever it took place.

Nick Gibb Portrait Nick Gibb
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My understanding of schools’ complaints procedures is that they involve the chair of the governing body. I think that is the right approach in addressing cases where any school falls short of proper regard to the guidance.

Many schools offer a second-hand uniform shop to support parents, and a number of commendable local schemes were mentioned on Second Reading. Such schemes are excellent, both for affordability and in reducing clothes waste. I would like every school to find a way to make second-hand uniforms available. Of course, all such arrangements would need to be covid-secure. My parents certainly used a second-hand shop to buy my school rugby shirt, particularly as they knew it was unlikely to get much use.

The hon. Member for Wirral West, who spoke for the Opposition, raised the issue of engagement and consultation on the guidance. I want to make it clear that we will commit to engaging with representatives of schools and with parents and other interested parties when drafting the statutory guidance. That includes the request by the hon. Member for Putney, who raised the question of the Children’s Society. We will of course commit to talk to the Children’s Society.

The hon. Member for Weaver Vale called for the guidance to be implemented by September 2021. I can give him the assurance that the intention is to issue it as soon as practically possible after the Bill comes into force, notwithstanding the need to engage with the sector. We all want to see savings for families as soon as possible, but we need to make sure that we implement it in a way that does not have unintended consequences. No one wants hundreds of school uniform policies to change overnight with parents suddenly and unexpectedly required to buy whole new sets of uniform and uniform suppliers struggling to keep up. I do not therefore believe it would be helpful to include a fixed date by which the guidance will come into force, but I assure the hon. Gentleman that we will seek to consult on the statutory guidance informally with interested parties and publish it as soon as possible.

Uniform makes an important contribution to school life and should continue to do so. Providing schools with a balanced, pragmatic and flexible framework on cost considerations through the statutory guidance is the best way to achieve the changes we all want to see while protecting schools’ local decision-making. I welcome all hon. Members’ views expressed today, and I am confident from our discussions that we have the right foundations on which to progress the Bill. I commend the Bill to the Committee.

Mike Amesbury Portrait Mike Amesbury
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I thank all members of the Committee. This morning shows Parliament at its best, with hon. Members working together constructively as we have throughout the Bill’s passage. I thank the Minister and his departmental officials for ensuring that I have had the support—in fact, that we have all had the support—to progress so far.

We are all change makers in the passage to ensure that the Bill becomes law, not just as legislators or MPs, or to put out on social media and all the rest of it, but for the people we represent, regardless of political party, in particular those hard-pressed children, families and carers. This simple and short Bill can make a significant difference.

I thank the Mirror Group and the Sunday People, which have been campaigning a damn sight longer than I have on this issue and others. I also thank the Children’s Society, which hon. Members have mentioned.

There have been some brilliant contributions to the debate. Wales has led the way, but I hope that we will go one step further. We will learn from the Welsh, but let us have even more informed legislation that will benefit children, families and schools.

Finally, I thank the children, families, schools, unions and the Schoolwear Association for their voices in shaping the Bill so far and ultimately in shaping the guidance. May that continue until the guidance comes to fruition.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill to be reported, without amendment.

00:04
Committee rose.

Written Statement

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Written Statements
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Wednesday 16 September 2020

Commercial Property Tenants and Landlords

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Written Statements
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Robert Jenrick Portrait The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government (Robert Jenrick)
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I am today informing the House that I have laid a statutory instrument that will extend the moratorium on commercial landlords’ right to forfeit a lease due to the non-payment of rent to the end of the year.

The moratorium was established via Section 82 of the Coronavirus Act 2020 and was due to expire on 30 September. It has now been extended by three months and will expire on 31 December 2020. This extension will help provide businesses and employees with certainty and protect vital jobs, particularly in the retail and hospitality sectors.

This is being accompanied by an amendment to Commercial Rent Arrears Recovery measures led by the Ministry of Justice. Accompanying restrictions on the service of statutory demands and winding-up petitions, implemented through the Corporate Insolvency and Governance Act 2020, are currently in place until 30 September, and we are working closely across Government to consider a similar extension to these.

Since March, Government have implemented a range of measures to support commercial property tenants and landlords. The objective of these measures was to preserve tenants’ businesses through the covid-19 lockdown and to give time and space to landlords and tenants to agree reasonable adjustments to rent and lease terms, including terms for the payment of accumulated rent arrears.

This is a temporary measure being extended; however Government recognise that it cannot go on indefinitely. We recognise the impact that this extension has on landlords, therefore we expect both sides of the sector to use this time to negotiate and Government will intervene further if necessary.

This extension will provide the businesses with certainty as they scale up their recovery from covid-19 and will ensure that sectors most acutely impacted by the closure of non-essential retail can benefit from the Christmas trading period.

This is not a rent holiday. Government are clear that landlords and tenants should be coming together to negotiate in good faith where a tenant is unable to pay in full, using the principles set out in the voluntary code of practice we published in June which recommends that those tenants who can pay should do so while those landlords who are able to grant concessions should do so. This code of practice and approach was supported by a wide range of sector bodies representing tenants and landlords.

England, Northern Ireland and Wales are covered by the protection from forfeiture in the Coronavirus Act. Section 82 relates to England and Wales, and the Welsh Government have already laid a statutory instrument to extend the measures for an additional three months. Section 83 relates to Northern Ireland, who are currently considering a similar extension. The Scottish Government passed separate emergency legislation to implement similar measures.

[HCWS453]

Grand Committee

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Grand Committee
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Wednesday 16 September 2020
14:30
The Grand Committee met in a hybrid proceeding.

Arrangement of Business

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Grand Committee
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Announcement
14:30
Lord Lexden Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Lexden) (Con)
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My Lords, the hybrid Grand Committee will now begin. Some Members are here in person, respecting social distancing, others are participating remotely, but all Members will be treated equally. I must ask Members in the Room to wear a face covering except when seated at their desk, to speak sitting down and to wipe their desk, chair and any other surfaces that they may touch. If the capacity of the Committee Room is exceeded or other safety requirements breached, I will immediately adjourn the Committee.

The time limit for the debate on the first instrument is one hour.

Alternative Dispute Resolution for Consumer Disputes (Extension of Time Limits for Legal Proceedings) (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Grand Committee
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Considered in Grand Committee
14:31
Moved by
Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan
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That the Grand Committee do consider the Alternative Dispute Resolution for Consumer Disputes (Extension of Time Limits for Legal Proceedings) (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020.

Lord Callanan Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)
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My Lords, these regulations were laid before the House on 29 June 2020.

We want a relationship with the EU based on friendly co-operation between sovereign equals and centred on a trading relationship based on free trade agreements like those the EU has concluded with a range of other international partners. We will have a relationship with our European friends inspired by our shared history and values. These regulations form part of the important and necessary programme of work being done to ensure that retained EU legislation continues to work effectively and as intended in the UK immediately after the transition period.

Consumers in the UK enjoy a strong framework of statutory rights which enable them to enter into contracts with traders safe in the knowledge that they are protected by the law. These rights help to maintain a fair balance between consumers and business and, in most cases, help consumers to resolve disputes with traders directly. Where resolution cannot be achieved directly with the business, we know that consumers would prefer to have alternative methods of tackling disputes that do not involve the cost or complexities associated with court action.

Alternative dispute resolution, known as ADR, provides a strong alternative to court action by enabling parties to settle a dispute in a favourable manner with the help of an independent third party. ADR is often quicker and cheaper than legal proceedings and, depending on the type used, can produce binding decisions.

I emphasise that these draft regulations have no impact on our access to, or the quality of, ADR in the UK. They also do not alter wider substantive consumer rights and protections available to UK residents, which also remain unchanged.

The regulations are narrow in scope and primarily concerned with the extension of the time limit for bringing court proceedings. They will amend four pieces of legislation which implement EU ADR directives that will no longer apply to the UK following the end of the transition period. The four pieces of legislation currently provide a short extension to the statutory time limit for bringing court proceedings where a consumer is engaged in non-binding ADR with a trader. These extensions allow the ADR procedure to conclude and provide parties with a conditional eight- week grace period to launch legal proceedings if they are not satisfied with the outcome of the ADR procedure. This ensures that parties do not lose their ability to pursue legal action if the time limit for doing so expires during or just after the completion of the ADR procedure.

It is important to highlight that these extensions to the time limit will continue to apply following the transition period but, as a result of this SI, extensions will apply only where the consumer is resident in the UK and the ADR provider is approved under the UK’s ADR regulation. If both conditions are met, the time limits for initiating legal proceedings when engaged in ADR will continue to be extended for UK-resident consumers, irrespective of whether they are interacting with a trader based in the UK or the EU.

The regulations substantively mirror the changes made by the equality exit regulations, which this House has already approved, to Section 140AA of the Equality Act 2010, which provides for extensions of time limits in the case of claims of discrimination relating to consumer disputes. The instrument before the Committee today is designed to ensure that a consistent approach is taken across the statute book to all rules on extensions of time limits deriving from the ADR directive.

These regulations will have no detrimental impact on the majority of disputes involving UK-resident consumers. They also do not otherwise affect the ability of any consumer, whether living in the UK or the EU, to apply to the UK courts or to use ADR as a means of dispute resolution with a trader. Moreover, transitional provisions have been included to ensure that any extensions that have begun before the regulations come into force continue to apply.

My departmental officials have undertaken the appropriate assessment of the regulations’ impact on businesses and relevant bodies. This showed that any impact is likely to be negligible because these amendments do not bring about a wider policy change or impose any new liabilities or obligations on any relevant business, organisations or persons.

In conclusion, the regulations are a necessary and appropriate use of the powers in the withdrawal Act to ensure that this area of law continues to operate as intended after the transition period. I therefore commend them to the Committee.

14:36
Lord Singh of Wimbledon Portrait Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]
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My Lords, the regulations are welcome and necessary to enable consumer rights under EEC regulations to be protected before the end of the transition period. It is important to ensure that EU legislation continues to work effectively in the UK after the end of the transition period.

While 60% of consumer rights disputes are settled directly with the business or supplier concerned, where these are unresolved most consumers would still prefer an alternative to formal litigation. The eight-week grace period after a failure to settle a dispute through an alternative dispute procedure and embarking on legal proceedings is welcome. It will help to ensure that the UK and EU consumers can enter into ADR processes in good faith, without fear of strict time limits to bring a case to court.

This is a sensible approach and a good beginning to protecting consumer rights before the end of the transition period, but there is a long way to go in meeting the challenges of wider consumer protection, covering nearly 100 directives on consumer rights. This will not be helped by the recent souring of relations between us and Europe. The EU consumer protection laws, which we helped to frame over 40 years, enable us to purchase goods and services with confidence and enhance our trade with the EU. We still have a long way to go in our increasingly fraught negotiations with Europe to preserve those rights. There is also a need for more resources to ensure compliance with our new independent standards.

I close with the words of the Chartered Trading Standards Institute:

“Much has been made of maintaining the UK’s post-Brexit standards of regulation, but rules without resources for application, advice and enforcement are rendered ineffective and detrimental to the UK economy.”

14:39
Lord Mann Portrait Lord Mann (Non-Afl)
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My Lords, over the last 20 years I have represented many thousands of people in what would accurately be described as alternative dispute resolutions, in a range of different ways. I see nothing amiss with this very sensible proposal. However, I want to press the Minister on the current situation and some of the likely ongoing disputes, in view of experiences I have had in recent times.

One problem I have encountered is the return of goods. Some suppliers have been remarkably reticent in acknowledging electronic communication, and consumers visiting their premises to return goods find that those premises are closed—a new scenario that potentially weakens the consumer’s position. I wanted to ensure that there is no hidden detriment in any way to those disputes where the goods supplier makes themselves unavailable. This is obviously severely compounded by their ability to do so at the current time.

The second is much more common, and concerns services—for example, airline services—and cancellations of airline and other transport services and comparable bookings due to the current crisis and for no other reason. Again, some airlines and third-party travel agencies have been highly responsive. Others have been highly unresponsive, with huge delays even in acknowledging requests for refunds. It appears that there is a danger in some cases of this potentially going on for many months and becoming protracted. An example would be if one were to cancel a Christmas booking now. There are all sorts of issues regarding what the rules for Christmas will be, whereas the rules for airlines seem much more precise.

As regards the Government’s thinking on this, does this legislation have any impact other than pro consumer, with the additional time allowance built in, or would it be accurate to entirely phrase this legislation as an additional time opportunity for consumers seeking redress through alternative dispute resolution without the need to go to court in these difficult times?

14:42
Lord Bhatia Portrait Lord Bhatia (Non-Afl) [V]
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My Lords, alternative dispute resolution regulations are being made because of the UK exiting from the EU. This statutory instrument will ensure that ADR continues to work as intended after the end of the transition period in a context in which the EU’s ADR can longer apply to the UK. The regulation will give extra time to allow the ADR procedures to conclude, and if it has not been successful, will give the parties an eight-week grace period to commence court proceedings thereafter. This protects the parties, who are not prevented from initiating additional proceedings where the court limit expires during or just after the ADR procedures. The effect of the regulations will protect both UK and EU-based consumers buying goods and services in the EU. It will ultimately mean that UK consumers are protected by the time limit extensions only when working through ADR organisations.

Everything I have said today shows the huge number of consumers and organisations that will be affected by our withdrawal from the EU. The EU is our biggest market, and the withdrawal from the EU is, in many people’s minds, the biggest error and self-harm that the Government have imposed on the country. History will record how the politics of our EU exit has harmed the richness of our country. Unemployment and closures of our industries will remain scars for a very long period.

14:44
Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate Portrait Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I declare my position as a practising lawyer, and I am pleased to contribute to this scrutiny process today. As a former member of the House of Commons Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, I have always been clear that the use of SIs by government is to be carefully and thoroughly monitored, and the effects of Brexit have resulted in large numbers of instruments coming before us, many of which will be rightly deemed subject to affirmative resolution and worthy of further debate or inquiry. With nearly 300 more instruments on their way, this will place an enormous burden on Parliament, but we must not allow the pressure of numbers to lessen our duties of proper scrutiny. I appreciate that the process does not permit us to reject an instrument, so it is all the more important that any concerns and inquiries about the operation of provisions are raised with our Ministers using the opportunity that occasions such as this afford us.

On the matter before us, most disputes involving consumers and businesses are, thankfully, settled amicably, but there has always been a need to try to find a middle course before resorting to court action, which is inevitably complicated, expensive and necessarily delays the outcome. That is where alternative dispute resolution has been so useful. I am pleased to hear that we are not planning to change the basics of the system through this instrument, although extensions to time limits for bringing court proceedings with eight weeks’ grace is of significance. Of course, the basis of ADR comes, as do so many other civil law initiatives, from European Commission directives, to which the UK contributed in a leading way. As a result, in the case of ADR, we have built up a positive cross-border engagement covering consumer rights in a very international environment. This covers the protection of consumer rights everywhere and anywhere in the EU.

There is a complex and interwoven system in the single market, supported by nearly 90 EU directives, which has been greatly to the benefit of consumers here and across the European Union. My first question to my noble friend is therefore: the Government state that this SI changes nothing regarding the protection of UK consumers, but how will we be able to guarantee the protection of consumers’ rights when they visit the EU 27 after January next year? Secondly, how will UK consumers avail themselves of the services of agencies and the infrastructure in place across Europe, which is currently their right? Thirdly, we currently enjoy full reciprocal rights with our European neighbours, which includes investigation of breaches of consumer law. How will UK consumers obtain redress from these businesses and traders based in the EU through our UK courts, to which they will have to apply solely in future?

Cross-border ADR will presumably be lost to UK consumers. I have to say to my noble friend that in this field, a statutory instrument such as this is only one half of the post-Brexit story. To ensure ongoing consumer protection, we surely need at least mutual recognition rules within the EU 27. Without that, our UK consumers, whatever the Government may say, will be greatly disadvantaged in the future. Finally, in the time-limited extension provisions in this SI, two important groups appear to be excluded: EU-based consumers transacting business or obtaining goods and services in the UK, and UK-based consumers transacting business or obtaining goods and services in the EU. Can my noble friend offer us all the reassurances that we would like to have on these apparent omissions?

I realise that our opportunity to debate this SI is not based on the matters I have concentrated on, being of major concern to the European SI Committee, which was concerned then about the diminution of rights relating to the time limits before court proceedings and the linked legislation being primary in nature. However, I am nevertheless grateful for this opportunity, and I hope that it will be extended to many more items of secondary legislation from the very long list.

14:49
Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted Portrait Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD) [V]
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My Lords, the UK had a tradition of alternative dispute resolution before the EU ADR directive. As has been indicated by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, UK MEPs played a significant part in achieving the passage of the EU legislation. It was not just an extension of the applicable territory that the UK gained through the directive. As I understood it, there was an extension of timing possibilities for factions so that, if ADR was unsuccessful, the matter could still be taken to the courts. That was a useful addition to the law and I am glad that it is being kept, although it appears it is now being reduced, so that it is applicable to UK residents only, as a consequence of Brexit.

UK-based ADR organisations will also no longer be required to act in cross-border disputes, and the UK competent authorities that approve ADR providers will no longer be required to report to the European Commission on the state of ADR activity. I note that result with sadness, for both UK consumers who will—as indicated by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope—lose some access, and ADR organisations, which would appear to be losing work. The reciprocal effect will happen, so EU residents will no longer be able to exercise cross-border ADR rights in the UK. I wonder whether this will promote a change in online trading patterns and possibly the reintroduction of liable inter- mediaries and higher costs, or influence trade to go elsewhere, with less cross-border trade.

Given that statistics have been collected in the past, it would be interesting to know how many ADR claims UK residents have made relating to the remaining EU member states and, conversely, what volume of ADR cases EU residents have pursued in the UK.

Online dispute resolution is also being lost and is not really covered by this instrument. That platform is run by the Commission and I understand that, at the end of the implementation period, access to it will be lost. It is disappointing that there appears to be no UK substitute. I have read that the dispute resolution provisions tend not to have been as widely displayed as they should in the UK, but that is not really an excuse to abandon them, never to be returned. Therefore, can the Minister say whether this is a long-term abandonment or if there are plans for replacement?

Coronavirus has increased the amount of online trading and much of that trend is likely to be permanent, being just an acceleration of a trend that was already under way. It makes sense, in a modern digital world, to have a modern digital way for consumer redress mechanisms. Similarly, as I asked before about statistics, does the Minister have any numbers for the volume of online disputes relating to UK consumers?

14:53
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Portrait Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, I thank the Minister for his clear introduction of the SI. All noble Lords have taken his point that the intention is not to change the existing arrangements as they affect UK residents in relation to ADR, but to provide an additional safeguard for the extension of time because of the transition period. However, I am no different from the other speakers in that it raises a wider question about how ADR is conceived and operates in the UK, and what the future might bring.

My first point is directly related to that, because the Minister made a strong plea for ADR as a strong alternative to court proceedings and, therefore, a valuable asset for consumers and consumer rights. That depends on whether the ADR systems in place are active, efficient and serve customers well. Noble Lords will recall that, when the original directive was going through, this side of the House spent a considerable amount of time and effort trying to persuade the Government—unsuccessfully, in the end—that, when the directive is transposed, we ought to take a hard line against industries that are either slow to take up an ADR system or produce one with weak and ineffective operations. It may be wrong to require ombudsman services to be set up, but they seem to be a gold standard in many areas. Where they work well—financial services is a good example—they provide a mechanism that has the confidence of consumers and is effective in getting results for them, so they do not have to go into the aggressive atmosphere of courts.

When he responds, could the Minister give us a tour d’horizon of consumer areas, at the moment? The noble Lord, Lord Mann, mentioned some topical areas where he felt there were some doubts, and many noble Lords will be aware of the situation affecting the vouchers that have been offered by airlines and other transport operators when tickets have been cancelled. My personal experience is that this is patchy at best: some are very good and able to respond within a few days; some have been a nightmare. I am still not certain whether I have a voucher waiting to be delivered to me, even though the company—I shall not name it—keeps putting on its website that significant progress has been made in getting through the backlog and that it is all going well. It is funny that no voucher ever seems to arrive.

My second point is a narrow one about what is happening with legislation. As I understand it, this SI amends primary as well as secondary legislation, in pursuit of what is a not objectionable objective. I noticed, in the instance I was pursuing, two primary legislative issues—one in Scotland and another in Northern Ireland. However, when I looked at the consultation process, I could not see anything reflective of the sort of discussion and debate that one might have expected from legislation that affects devolved Administrations, in particular Scotland and Northern Ireland. The reference in paragraph 10 of the Explanatory Memorandum simply says that the department wrote to the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland to seek agreement with the Northern Ireland Executive to make the instrument, and the department confirmed its agreement on 10 February.

Why is nothing mentioned about Section 14 of the Prescription and Limitation (Scotland) Act 1973, or am I missing something? There would have been a case for the Minister to be in correspondence with his counterparts in Scotland on this issue, even if it was only a courtesy. Presumably it is legislation that took place before devolution, but I think it is important to keep the niceties going on these issues.

My third point picks up that made by the noble Lord, Lord Singh, about how this works in practice. Consumers are relying on ADR but, in many cases, can do this only if the issue at hand has been subject to work, particularly by trading standards. We all know trading standards is under considerable pressure and has had additional responsibilities placed on it recently, but little additional resources flow its way. Could the Minister reassure us that trading standards is resourced effectively to do this work and will be able to pick up any additional work that results from this directive? I suspect that it will not be significant.

The point of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, about consumers’ ability to get redress in the EU is important. I appreciate it is not relevant to the strict wording of this SI, but it will be an issue that people pick up. I cannot be the only person who gets nervous—this point was also made by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles —when I buy something from a well-known deliverer of books, the name of which starts with “A”. I often find that the purchase I have made for my Kindle is delivered from Luxembourg.

I had not thought about the connection but the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, made it very clear that that will be a problem if I want to exercise my rights in future about anything that might go wrong. Fortuitously, as far as I am aware, nothing has gone wrong so far, but in an imperfect world we cannot always be certain that that will be the case. Could the Minister give us some words about how he thinks this will develop? Clearly, if the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, is right, we are seeing a considerable diminution in the ability of UK consumers to exercise their rights when they choose to buy from our closest trading partner—the EU. Is that where this is going? Is there anything the Minister can say that would help us?

15:00
Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
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I thank all noble Lords for their valuable contributions to this brief debate.

I reiterate that these regulations are extremely limited in their scope, to only the short-term extensions of the time limit for court proceedings for consumer disputes. They do not remove the ability for any consumer, whether resident in the UK or the EU, to use ADR in the UK or to access our courts. Disputes involving consumers resident in the UK should not be affected, and the transitional provisions avoid disruption in any case where consumers have commenced ADR proceedings before the draft regulations came into force.

These amendments are necessary as a result of the ADR directive ceasing to apply in the UK when we leave the EU and to prevent inconsistency in the statute book given the changes already made by the equality exit regulations. If these amendments are not made, EU consumers may continue to benefit from the possibility of an extension which might not be available to UK consumers within the arrangements in place in remaining member states.

The Government remain firmly committed to maintaining the high standards from which UK consumers have benefited for many years, and these regulations do not hinder these in the slightest. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, that our high standards are not and never have been dependent on EU membership. The UK has often led and in most cases goes well beyond the minimum requirements set out by EU consumer law. We also have many excellent consumer advice organisations that guide consumers in pursuing complaints against traders. All of this suggests that for the majority of consumers the current framework works well.

I can also reassure the noble Lords, Lord Mann and Lord Stevenson, that nothing in these regulations has any effect on existing consumer rights, whether the return of faulty goods or refunds for travel or airline tickets. They are all dealt with under separate legislation. It remains the case that many suppliers have offered vouchers for holidays, flights, et cetera, but it is entirely up to consumers whether they choose to accept them. There are separate regulatory and statutory frameworks governing those rights. I reiterate that none of that is affected by this SI.

This legislation is limited purely to the additional time for consumers seeking redress. It allows for short-term extensions to the time limits for court proceedings where that is necessary to give the parties the opportunity to resolve their differences through non-binding ADR. It enables the existing rights to an extension to work effectively after the end of the transition period. We are proud that Britain’s consumer protection regime is among the most robust in the world; the UK has a strong history of protecting consumers in its own right. UK consumers will of course continue to enjoy excellent rights after transition.

The noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, raised the important question of how the Government will guarantee that consumers will be protected when buying from EU-based traders post implementation period. This point was also made by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, with his reference to “the big A”. The noble Lord raised the important point of how consumers will obtain redress in the UK courts from traders based in the EU following the transition period.

Consumers resident in the EU will continue to be able to resolve disputes with UK businesses directly, will be able to use ADR as long as the ADR provider is available to them, and will retain access to the UK courts. EU-based companies selling their products or services in UK-regulated markets must comply with all UK regulatory requirements. In the regulated sectors, this would include compliance with sectoral rules and requirements around the offer of ADR or other forms of redress to their customers. In future we want a relationship with the EU based on friendly co-operation between sovereign equals, centred on a trading relationship based on free trade agreements like those the EU has concluded with a range of other international partners.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked about the scope of ADR. My department has announced its intention to review various areas of the consumer enforcement landscape. We intend to bring forward a package of reform to make it easier and quicker for consumers to use ADR services. On his question about engagement with the devolved bodies, this is a consumer protection measure and is reserved, except for Northern Ireland. That has driven the focus of our engagement. As I said, we want a relationship with the EU based on friendly co-operation.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, asked about statistics. Over 2.5 million disputes have been resolved through ADR in the past six years. BEIS research found that 80% of consumers who used ADR procedures thought their problem would not have been resolved without it. We consider that a success story. We will always closely examine areas of the dispute resolution landscape which are not working for consumers and lay out our proposals for reform.

The draft regulations we are considering today do not dilute consumer rights and protections by any means, and merely form part of a programme of legislation required to ensure that retained EU law is workable and free of deficiencies after the end of the transition period. With that, I commend these draft regulations to the Committee.

Motion agreed.
15:06
Sitting suspended.

Arrangement of Business

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Grand Committee
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Announcement
15:45
Baroness Garden of Frognal Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)
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My Lords, the Hybrid Grand Committee will now resume. Some Members are here in person, respecting social distancing, others are participating remotely, but all Members will be treated equally. I must ask Members in the Room to wear a face covering except when seated at their desk, to speak sitting down and to wipe down their desk, chair and other touch points after use. If the capacity of the Committee Room is exceeded, or other safety requirements are breached, I will immediately adjourn the Committee. If there is a Division in the House, the Committee will adjourn for five minutes. The time limit for this debate is one hour, and I ask all members to keep to their time.

European Structural and Investment Funds Common Provisions and Common Provision Rules etc. (Amendment) (EU Exit) (Revocation) Regulations 2020

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Grand Committee
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Considered in Grand Committee
15:45
Moved by
Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan
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That the Grand Committee do consider the European Structural and Investment Funds Common Provisions and Common Provision Rules etc. (Amendment) (EU Exit) (Revocation) Regulations 2020.

Lord Callanan Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)
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My Lords, the EU regulations for structural funds and the cohesion fund are designed to reduce social and economic disparities in the EU and are the main funding tools designed to deliver the EU’s cohesion policy. They come under the wider family of European structural and investment funds. These EU regulations set out the rules governing these funds and give powers to the member state to ensure the operability of eligible projects.

More than half of EU funding is channelled through the European structural and investment funds. They are jointly managed by the European Commission and the EU member states. BEIS sets the policy and co-ordinates the management of four of these funds across the UK: the European Regional Development Fund, ERDF, which includes European Territorial Co-operation funding—ETC; the European Social Fund—ESF; the European Agricultural Fund for Rural Development—EAFRD; and the European Maritime and Fisheries Fund, or EMFF.

The UK has been allocated about £9.5 billion of funding under structural funds for the 2014-20 period. The funds currently support growth, low carbon, transport, research, innovation, small businesses, employment opportunities and social inclusion. Structural fund programmes are managed and delivered by government organisations designated as managing authorities—MAs—which in essence are delivery bodies for the funds in England and the devolved Administrations and are responsible for drawing up operational programmes. These programmes set out the levels of funding available for certain activities and how the programmes will be run within the parameters set by the EU regulations.

The Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy—BEIS—is the co-ordinating body for ESIFs in the UK. In England, the managing authorities for the European Regional Development Fund and the European Social Fund are, respectively, the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and the Department for Work and Pensions. The devolved Administrations and Her Majesty’s Government of Gibraltar administer ERDF and ESF in their respective areas. The Department for Environment Food and Rural Affairs manages the agricultural funds—EAFRD—in England, and the devolved Administrations in their areas, apart from EMFF which is run across the UK by the Marine Management Organisation, an executive non-departmental public body sponsored by Defra. Gibraltar receives a small allocation of about €10 million —£8.8 million—from the European Regional Development Fund and the European Social Fund for 2014-20 and has agreed operational programmes with the European Commission to implement them. It also takes part in two transnational programmes.

The need for continued regional investment in the event of a no-deal exit and the nature of the projects supported by these funds led to the introduction of legislation so that these funds could operate domestically under a no deal until their planned closure, even though they would cease to be funded by the EU in such circumstances. As the UK subsequently signed the withdrawal agreement, which maintains the EU regulations for European Structural and Investment Funds until programme closure, which could be until 2026, given that programmes run until 2023 and then generally take two to three years to wind up, SI 625 contradicts the intent and purpose of the withdrawal agreement.

This instrument is being laid in order to revoke the aforementioned SI 625/2019, which was made on 18 March 2019. That SI disapplied retained EU law in relation to the European Regional Development Fund, the European Social Fund and the European Territorial Cooperation Fund to ensure that the programmes could continue in a no-deal scenario. Under the withdrawal agreement, these regulations can still apply in the UK, despite the UK not being a member state. Now that the withdrawal agreement has been signed by the UK and made into law through the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020, the original statutory instrument, 625/2019, is therefore no longer required and should be repealed in order not to confuse the statute book.

The EU withdrawal agreement Act 2020 allows the UK to continue to apply EU Regulation 1303/2013, supplementary funds, specific regulations and associated delegated and implementing legislation for the European structural and investment funds through until the end of the current programme. It is proposed that the UK shared prosperity fund will be set up as the domestic successor to the European structural and investment funds for new programmes.

In conclusion, it is therefore necessary to revoke the original no-deal statutory instrument 625/2019 to remove conflict with the provisions of the EU withdrawal Act. The UK will continue to participate in European structural and investment funds programmes until their closure, and delivery continues through the managing authorities and devolved Administrations. Therefore, in order to remove any confusion from the statute book as the no-deal guarantee for funding is now not required, I commend this regulation to the Committee.

15:52
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Portrait Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
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My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to speak on these regulations. Particularly as a Scottish Peer—indeed, a former Minister of State for Scotland—I am only too aware of the important role that ESIFs have played in reducing disparities across Scotland over the past four decades. Indeed, under the current 2014-20 programmes, Scotland benefits from more than £780 million of funding through the European Regional Development Fund and the Social Fund, in addition to £1.5 billion through the European Agricultural Fund for Rural Development. Indeed, more than two years ago, I spoke here about the importance of continuing these funds to support communities and regions not just in Scotland but throughout the UK, saying that I was concerned that they would be lost in the Brexit void.

Nevertheless, while I welcome the UK shared prosperity fund as the domestic successor to ESIF for new programmes after 2020, I am concerned that with government cuts, it is in danger of becoming a shared austerity fund rather than a shared prosperity fund. Indeed, we are still no clearer on how the funding will be allocated or when a final decision will be made. The Government have said that they will not confirm the allocation until after the cross-departmental spending review in the coming months. However, these are challenging times and we need to provide both Scotland and the whole of the UK with clarity on the allocations from this scheme, so will the Minister explain why we are having to wait and how soon after the spending review the Government will make the announcement on this? Will it be by the end of 2020, or will they kick the can down the road into 2021?

Finally, the Explanatory Note says that BEIS originally laid an SI in March 2019, as we know: SI 625. That removed the EU regulations for structural funds from UK law in the event of a no-deal exit. However, as the UK signed the withdrawal agreement, which maintained the EU regulations for ESIF until programme closure, as the Minister said, SI 625 contradicts the intent and purpose of the withdrawal agreement, which is why it is now being revoked. However, is it not ironical that the Government are now considering overriding parts of the withdrawal agreement, so will we have another SI in a few weeks’ or months’ time? Perhaps the Minister could tell us. No wonder the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, could not stand the heat in the kitchen and has left it—going back, no doubt, to make some money at the Bar. Nevertheless, I support the regulations.

15:54
Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted Portrait Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD) [V]
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My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing the instrument. I have no disagreement with the redundancy of the revoked legislation, given that the funding has been agreed and is to be paid out for parts of the programmes that are yet to be completed—at least, that is the agreement, although, given that the UK may go back on the backstop details of the withdrawal agreement, I feel I should point out that one of the Commission’s general retaliations for misbehaviour is the retention of structural funds from an erring member state.

Leaving that aside, we are coming to the end of the EU structural funds and, as the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, said, there is great anxiety about the replacement fund, the UK shared prosperity fund, and how closely it will replicate not just the EU funding but the matching national funding, and the method of calculation and distribution. It has often been a criticism that structural funds were cumbersome and expensive in their distribution mechanisms. I do not dispute that, but wherever I asked questions about it in the UK—that is the sort of thing that MEPs got up to—the answer I got back from the regions was that they preferred to have the funds allocated by the EU, because otherwise they could not guarantee getting the money from a Government of any stripe. That was probably true, and if getting the maximum bang for your buck is applied, as the Treasury has in the past, it does not favour the less developed areas. But that is potentially not how it is to be in the future. I believe I heard the Chancellor say that the methodology of funding more generally was to be looked at as part of levelling up. If that is the case, can the Minister categorically reassure us that the basis of need will be retained as the key feature?

My other question is: how granularly will the areas be looked at? I am very conscious of conflicting pulls here: when large areas are deprived, there can be cumulative effects, but it is also the case that highly deprived pockets within rich regions also suffer exaggerated effects. Can the Minister shed any light on that?

15:57
Lord Flight Portrait Lord Flight (Con)
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My Lords, this statutory instrument revokes legislation laid in 2019 that would have guaranteed structural funding in the event of a no-deal exit. Under Article 138 of the withdrawal agreement, the UK will continue to have access to the ERDF, ESF, EAFRD and EMFF until the end of the current multiannual financial framework, the term 2014-20. Funding cycles typically last up to three years, with closure taking up to another three years, so some ESIF projects will continue expenditure through to December 2023.

The UK will not be pursuing participation in future ESIF programmes, including ETC health, in the MFF 2021-27 period. The UK will participate in ETC peace plus for 2021-27. The UK shared prosperity fund, the UKSPF, will succeed the ESIF for new programmes. BEIS originally laid an SI in March 2019, SI 625, which removed the EU regulations for structural funds from UK law in the event of a no-deal exit. Unreplaced, it would now come into force on the last day of the transition period. BEIS is seeking to revoke that no-deal regulation because it is not compatible with the arrangements set out under Article 138 of the WA.

As already pointed out, the no-deal SI 625 disapplies the regulations for ERDF, the ESF and ETC when it comes into force at the end of the TP, while the WA maintains the same regulations until the programme closure. If SI 625 were kept, it would confuse the statute book. It is currently planned that the UK shared prosperity fund will replace the EU structural funds with funding realigned to match domestic priorities. At a minimum, it will match current levels of funding to each nation from the EU structural funds.

I apologise for reading out the abbreviations for the titles of various bodies, but there is not time to read the whole lot in full.

Baroness Garden of Frognal Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)
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The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Naseby.

16:00
Lord Naseby Portrait Lord Naseby (Con)
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My Lords, my first point has already been made: that the regulations assume that we will not have a no-deal exit. As someone who saw a whole lot of SIs when I was in the other place, as chairman of Ways and Means, I have to say that it was normal with something of the scale of this SI for the Commons to have a look at it first, but the Commons have not considered this SI, so I become as suspicious as my noble colleague opposite about why something different is being done this time. Of course, it may be entirely innocent, but I have my doubts.

On paragraph 2.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum, headed:

“What will it now do?”


and the various funds set out there, is it the UK Government’s policy to apply for new projects in the remaining three and a half months of the period 2014-20? Or have we put in for all our projects and are just running down in this period? Are there to be any new projects in the remaining three and a half months?

Paragraph 3.1

“Matters of special interest to Parliament”


is followed by a paragraph that refers to

“English Votes for English Laws”

and then by a paragraph:

“The territorial application of this instrument includes Scotland and Northern Ireland.”


One asks the question: what happened to Wales, other than that paragraph 3.3 says that the instrument applies to all the UK? Is there something in the Welsh devolution arrangements that precludes it from doing something in relation to this SI?

We then come to what I call the run-off period. With no deal yet agreed and three and a half months left, are we in a position whereby we will not apply for anything else or, if we did, we would be treated rather frostily for doing so?

Is the £9.5 billion referred to in paragraph 7.2, which is a hell of a lot of money, a guaranteed amount, or is there any wriggle room for the EU to get out of that?

That takes one on to left-over projects, of which paragraph 7.4 says

“even though they would cease to be funded by the EU.”

One assumes, but we would like confirmation, that all the projects going on now, which at some point the EU will cease to fund, will be picked up by the UK Government.

On “Monitoring & review”, I am a passionate believer in monitoring—it is my own little analysis—but, increasingly and rightly, the time limit on reviews has been coming down. It is now almost quite normal to have a three-year review. I hope that in this case we will have a three-year review.

Baroness Garden of Frognal Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal)
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The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, has withdrawn, so I now call the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick.

16:03
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick Portrait Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]
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My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation of this SI, which we have to consider against the background of that other disputatious legislation, the internal market Bill. While I obviously welcome that there will be a progression towards the shared prosperity fund, I want to provide some context and then ask the Minister some questions.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, I was a Member of the other place, so I want to ascertain why the other place has not considered this legislation. As a former Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive, I am only too aware of the great benefit that the European Regional Development Fund, the European Maritime and Fisheries fund and the European Social Fund provided to our local communities. In fact, the European Union provided a levelling-up process through financial assistance for fisheries, infrastructure and social development projects in areas where funding would not necessarily have been provided by the national Government, notwithstanding that the UK Government were a net contributor to the EU. As a consequence, regional levelling-up was provided which mitigated against disadvantages and regional imbalances and ensured that projects which brought benefit in construction jobs and new facilities could come to realisation.

What resource has been allocated to the new shared prosperity fund? Will it be centrally resourced and then allocated to the devolved Administrations, or will they set up separate funds to deal with that? Will the shared prosperity fund have more resources than the EU to allocate to projects? Will it still address the deficits in marginalised communities, particularly in isolated, rural and coastal communities? Will it deal with and address those regional imbalances to which we have already referred?

What discussions have taken place with devolved institutions regarding the replacement money through the shared prosperity fund? As I asked earlier, will they receive that money over and above their annual block grant allocations to compensate for the loss of these European funds?

16:06
Baroness Altmann Portrait Baroness Altmann (Con)
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My Lords, I recognise, as other noble Lords have done, that this SI is necessary to revoke the previous no-deal planning because the withdrawal agreement continues Regulation 1303/2013 and associated legislation with respect to the European social investment fund. The no-deal funding guarantee therefore appears no longer to be required, but as the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, and the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, mentioned, if there is a problem with the withdrawal agreement, could the sums agreed under it be withheld? Is there any view in the department on that and could my noble friend comment on it?

It is clear that the ESIF has aimed to reduce social and economic disparities and support communities and regions and has generated over the years many useful projects: national programmes, local initiatives—including on biodiversity, energy efficiency, micro- generation and brain imaging—and help for rural areas that might not have been prioritised in a UK national policy. While I welcome the new UK shared prosperity fund, can my noble friend answer some of the questions already posed by other noble Lords, such as: when will the cross-department spending review happen and how much will be allocated? Will the amounts that the UK has invested be replicated in addition to the amounts that we have received from other EU nations? Will the shared prosperity fund still have as its driver need around the country rather than other priorities?

I am concerned to make sure that we do not lose some of the valuable initiatives that we had as a member of the EU. I know that the Government are committed to ensuring that Britain supports its own projects as required rather than being directed by the EU, and I respect that, but a little more clarity on how the shared prosperity fund might operate would be gratefully received.

16:09
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering Portrait Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]
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My Lords, my questions are not dissimilar to those from colleagues, which I am sure will help the Minister a great deal. Obviously, it seems a little odd that we are considering revoking an instrument when we still have not reached a trading deal, so I do not know whether this instrument before us today is a little premature.

I will ask the Minister a couple of questions. Of the €9.5 billion of funding under the structural funds for the 2014-20 period to which my noble friend referred, how much of that is still left to run and what is the distribution of the amount left between the four nations? Can he assure us today that the cost of administering them up to 2023-25 will be less than these sums of money involved? Presumably, match funding will still apply, and that money will have already been allocated, so no new money will be required.

Specifically on the European agricultural fund for rural development, I understand that €100 billion has been allocated overall to the whole of the EU for the period from 2014 to 2020. As the clue is in the name—this refers to the rural development programme—I place on record how much the north of England, North Yorkshire in particular, has benefited from this fund. However, this raises the question on which we have not yet had clarification: how will the UK shared prosperity fund function? I would like confirmation from the Minister, if possible today, that a significant element of this fund will go towards rural areas and, in particular, that it will carry forward many of the strands set out in the rural development programme, which has benefited the UK so much, not just in the 2014-20 period but overall. As we have learned that the original SI we are revoking aimed to reduce social and economic disparities across the UK, can we be sure that the Government’s levelling-up programme will continue to do what this SI has done in the past?

16:12
Baroness Kramer Portrait Baroness Kramer (LD) [V]
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My Lords, sparked by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, let me say how refreshing it is that we are debating a part of the European withdrawal agreement that the Government intend to uphold—there is a positive note to start on.

Of course it makes sense to repeal SIs that are redundant and potentially confusing, and we support the changes before us today. However, this debate gives me the chance to press the Government with the same kind of questions that the Minister has heard from other speakers. By the end of this year, EU funds will go into a run-off process over the subsequent few years, supporting existing or agreed projects but not investing in new ones. Like everyone else, I am remarkably short on detail for the UK shared prosperity fund that will replace them. Frankly, that seems a little extraordinary, because we are only three months or so from the end of transition. I thought there would be a major consultation on this. Have I missed it? It is possible that I have, but I attempted to find it and, frankly, I could not.

A number of bodies have raised quite a few issues around the UK shared prosperity fund. One of the hopes is that it will be transparent, simple and flexible—you could accuse the European structural funds of not meeting that test—to enable it to respond to local needs. I ask this because centralisation rather than devolution seems to have become a theme of this Government. I would also like to understand what role Parliament will play, particularly compared to the European Parliament, in holding the Government accountable for what happens with these funds. I am afraid I do not understand that either; perhaps the Minister could enlighten me.

Will the objectives that the Government have articulated for this new fund, such as boosting prosperity and tackling inequality, be adjusted as a result of Covid? That matters because of areas that might not have qualified under the original definitions but which are not dependent, for example, on hospitality, the airlines or on public transport. I pick up the point made by my noble friend Lady Bowles that sometimes a small sector or area can be deprived within an area of overall prosperity, but that still matters. Will those areas that might not have made the original list but now, because of Covid, may be very much in need, be looked at as recipients for this fund?

We could better understand the impact on geographies. My understanding—the Minister can correct me—is that however you look at the analysis, it looks as though areas such as Cornwall, for example, which benefited from the cliff-edge approach inherent in the European funds, will be serious losers in every approach that has been discussed for the new fund. Is that right? Perhaps the Minister can help us.

Again, to pick up on issues raised, the Conservative manifesto promised that each nation would receive as much funding as if we had not left the EU. For how long will that be true? Areas are desperate to know how much money will be available, particularly as we go into very rocky economic times.

To pick up a point made by both my noble friend Lady Bowles and the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, will we continue with the needs-based criteria or shift, as some have suggested, to an outcomes-based criteria? It makes a very big difference to which parts of the country and which kinds of projects receive funding rather than others.

Generally, I join noble Lords in saying that this is a great opportunity for the Minister to tell us much more about this new future—it would be exceedingly useful.

16:16
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Portrait Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, as other noble Lords have said, I am grateful to the Minister for his clear and focused introduction, which allowed us to understand better the importance of the SI with regard to clearing up the statute book, but also to point out some of the transitional difficulties that the Government will face as they see the end of these substantial schemes, which, as other noble Lords have said, have had such a huge impact across the country. They are a significant investment, many communities are involved, they connect all parts of the United Kingdom, and it is vital that we get this right. That would be true even if it were not also the case, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, pointed out, that the impact of Covid-19 stresses every aspect of that and will bring it very much to the forefront of our thinking.

The noble Lord, Lord Naseby, went through the Explanatory Memorandum and asked a number of detailed questions. I just wanted to ask one or two questions related to consultation. The extent and territorial application of this is clearly a United Kingdom issue, and the Minister has made it clear that these funds are and always have been reserved items. However, there is a tension regarding the local impact; other speakers made points on how the further you go from the centre of Whitehall with this, the easier it is to see the discrepancies and differences that need to be addressed, with funding of this nature coming, as it does, with a focus on trying to level up rather than reinforce existing divisions.

I was therefore intrigued to see in paragraph 4.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum:

“Devolved Administrations were involved in the preparation of this instrument.”


Can the Minister indulge us by explaining what that meant? Were they shouted at, engaged, and were there meetings or a discussion? I would really like to know. Contrast that with paragraph 10.1 in particular, which says that there was “no formal consultation”—presumably this was done with ties off, in an informal situation—but:

“Devolved Administrations have all provided consent letters from their ministers to the laying of this SI.”


That is a novel way of doing it. I am intrigued by this; it is a new process, which I have never seen before. Perhaps the Minister would be prepared to share those letters with the Committee. If he is not able to, perhaps he could explain in another letter what was going on here. I am not interested in prying into confidential details but I would like to know how the process works in practice.

All speakers mentioned it, but my noble friend Lord Foulkes and the noble Baronesses, Lady Ritchie and Lady Bowles, went into some detail about how we are going to be fed information about the shared prosperity funds that replace all the existing funding. As I said, £9.5 billion is a lot for even this Treasury to find on the money tree. The case has been well made for early notification about the thinking behind this and the consultation process going into it. Tying it to some feature of the calendar that allows a Minister to say something more concrete than just “It’s coming soon” would be good.

It is important to get assurances from Ministers that there is going to be a fund of this nature, size and reach, to understand better how constraints will apply to how much it is expected to do and how that will be done, whether there will be partnership arrangements—as was expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie—and whether there will be a bidding process or top-down delivery. We do not need firm details, but it would be interesting to know which way the Government are thinking.

I follow that with the astute observation of the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, that we might need to think harder about what might happen to us if the situation affecting the withdrawal agreement continues and the EU takes sanctions against the UK for its approach so far. If the first port of call is the retention of previously allocated structural funds, perhaps not this SI but the previous one will need to be repealed and we will have to go back to the first version. SI 625 may indeed have a longer life than we originally thought. I do not expect the Minister to go all the way down the track on this, but it would be helpful or reassuring to us if we knew that he had thought this through and that there are plans in place.

As I said at the beginning, we are talking about substantial sums of money, hard-wired into the way our country operates. It may not be the best or a long-term solution, but I appeal to the Government to think carefully about changes, as they come forward. It is important that we learn the lessons from the ESIF and its various formulations over the years. Bringing it all into one fund might be attractive, but the appetite to stop term funding is not there, and they will need to think carefully about how to share this money in a way that is effective and efficient, in terms of its overall goals, and that does not cut out partnership and local intelligence in how it is best applied.

16:22
Lord Callanan Portrait Lord Callanan (Con)
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I thank noble Lords again for their valuable contributions to this short debate. Now that the UK has left the European Union, one of the opportunities that we have is to design and implement our own regional funding programmes. Through the UK shared prosperity fund, the Government can cut out bureaucracy and create a fund that invests in UK priorities and is easier for local authorities and areas to access.

I know that there have been queries on our future participation in EU programmes but, to reiterate, the UK will not participate in any future ESIF programmes, apart from the PEACE PLUS programme mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie. The UK Government have committed to contributing to PEACE PLUS until 2027, as part of their unwavering commitment to uphold the hard-won peace in Northern Ireland following Brexit. PEACE PLUS will succeed the current PEACE scheme, which has helped promote economic and social progress in Northern Ireland and the border region of Ireland since 1995. The current programme, run with funding from the UK, Ireland and the EU, will end in 2020. The Special EU Programmes Body will continue to act as managing authority for these PEACE PLUS programmes. Discussions around shaping the proposal and the wider regulations are ongoing and the UK is participating in these.

The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, in his usual combative tone, asked about timings for the allocations. I assure him, the noble Baronesses, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted and Lady Altmann, and other noble Lords that the 2019 Conservative manifesto—of which the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, is a strong supporter —committed to at least matching the funding for EU structural funds to each nation in the United Kingdom. In response to their questions, I say again to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Bowles, Lady Kramer and Lady Ritchie, that final decisions on the allocation of the UK shared prosperity fund will be taken following the cross-government spending review, which is in progress. When that is completed, we will have further announcements to make. The Government have been working closely with interested parties across the UK, while developing the fund.

In response to my noble friend Lord Naseby, who asked whether it is the Government’s intention to apply for new projects for the remaining three and a half months, I say yes. The Government will be signing new projects during 2020 to make the most of the available European funding, which is recycled British funding in real terms. On the question from the noble Lord about Wales, I assure him that the SI indeed applies to Wales. On his question about ERDF and ESF, £9.5 billion is the agreed amount of EU funding for ERDF and ESF for the 2014-20 multiannual financial framework.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, asked how it will be resourced. The intention is for the fund to be resourced centrally and then allocated to the devolved Administrations. The noble Baroness and other noble Lords also asked about co-operation with other devolved Administrations. It will operate across the UK, and UK government officials regularly speak to their counterparts in the devolved Administrations to discuss any updates to their concerns or queries about the proposed fund. Similarly, Ministers also meet their counterparts in the devolved Administrations. I assure all noble Lords that these matters are raised regularly, and that Ministers from the devolved Administrations regularly air their concerns.

The noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, asked whether the sums agreed under the withdrawal agreement could be withheld. The answer is no. Article 138 of the withdrawal agreement states that the UK will continue to have access to European structural funds until the end of the current multiannual financial framework funding cycle. Funding to the UK SPF will be realigned to match domestic priorities, with a focus on investing in people.

There were also multiple queries about how the new fund would be operated and whether it would target by need. As I said, it will be driven by domestic priorities with a focus on investing in people. It will, at a minimum, match current levels of funding to each nation from the structural funds. We strongly believe that leaving the European Union provides us with a fresh opportunity to create a fund that invests in our priorities and targets funding where we decide it is most needed, while maintaining support for businesses and communities.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering asked about rural areas. The European agricultural fund for rural development is outside the scope of this SI. The original SI, which it revokes, repealed regulations for the European regional development fund, the European Social Fund and the European territorial co-operation fund only.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, asked about the impacts of Covid-19. We will continue working closely as one United Kingdom to understand the changing needs of local and regional economies. In our response to the impact of Covid-19, including the role the UK SPF will play, we have a great opportunity to design a fund driven by domestic priorities. As I said earlier, the decisions on the quantum of the fund will be made through the spending review.

I know that all queries have been about the shared prosperity fund. I have tried to aid noble Lords by responding to them, but they have nothing to do with the statutory instrument, which revokes the original no-deal instrument to ensure that our legislation is compatible with the arrangements set out under Article 138 of the withdrawal agreement. If the original no-deal SI were not repealed, it would confuse the statute book and cause potential conflict with these provisions. The Government fully recognise the role that structural funds play in supporting vital jobs and growth opportunities across the UK. I commend this SI to the Committee.

Motion agreed.
16:29
Sitting suspended.

Arrangement of Business

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Grand Committee
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Announcement
17:00
Lord Faulkner of Worcester Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)
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Good afternoon, my Lords. The Hybrid Grand Committee will now resume. Some Members are here in person, respecting social distancing, others are participating remotely, but all Members will be treated equally. I must ask Members in the Room to wear a face covering except when seated at their desk, to speak sitting down and to wipe down their desk, chair and any other touch points before and after use. If the capacity of the Committee Room is exceeded or other safety requirements are breached, I will immediately adjourn the Committee. If there is a Division in the House, the Committee will adjourn for five minutes.

Sentencing (Pre-consolidation Amendments) Act 2020 (Exception) Regulations 2020

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Grand Committee
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Considered in Grand Committee
17:01
Moved by
Baroness Scott of Bybrook Portrait Baroness Scott of Bybrook
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That the Grand Committee do consider the Sentencing (Pre-consolidation Amendments) Act 2020 (Exception) Regulations 2020.

Baroness Scott of Bybrook Portrait Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
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My Lords, this draft instrument will ensure that the victim surcharge payable by an offender sentenced under the forthcoming sentencing code will not be higher than the amount which would have applied at the time they committed the offence.

For those not familiar with the surcharge, it is imposed by the court on offenders following sentence to ensure that offenders hold some responsibility for the cost of supporting the victims and witnesses of crime. The amount imposed varies, depending on the age of the offender and the type of sentence they received. Income from the surcharge contributes to the victims and witnesses budget, which funds support to help victims and witnesses of crime.

The sentencing code is a consolidation of sentencing procedural law in England and Wales. It will bring much-needed clarity and accessibility to this area of law by providing sentencing courts with a point of reference for the procedural provisions which govern the sentencing process. The Law Commission’s Sentencing Bill, which creates the sentencing code, is currently before Parliament.

Let me turn to the purpose of this instrument. In April, the Criminal Justice Act 2003 (Surcharge) (Amendment) Order 2020 came into force. That order increased the surcharge payable by an offender in particular circumstances. Importantly, these increases apply only where a court deals with someone who committed an offence after that order came into force. Since then, the Sentencing (Pre-consolidation Amendments) Act 2020 received Royal Assent on 8 June. That Act makes amendments to existing sentencing legislation to facilitate the consolidation of sentencing procedural law in the sentencing code. The pre-consolidation Act gives effect to a clean sweep of sentencing law. This removes the need for sentencing courts to identify and apply historic versions of sentencing law and, as a result, the current law as enacted in the sentencing code will apply to all sentencing decisions when an offender is convicted after its commencement, irrespective of the date that the offence was committed.

To protect the fundamental rights of offenders, the clean sweep is subject to certain exceptions. They are set out in Schedule 1 to the pre-consolidation Act. The Act also allows for further exceptions to the clean sweep to be made by statutory instrument. These regulations are made under that power. In accordance with the provisions of the pre-consolidation Act, the clean sweep will apply to the 2020 order unless steps are taken to exempt it. This would mean that the increased surcharge amount specified in the 2020 order would apply to certain offenders sentenced under the sentencing code who committed offences before that order came into force. That is clearly unfair and would run contrary to the aim of Article 3 of the 2020 order, which states that those increases apply only where a court deals with someone who has committed an offence after that order came into force.

This draft instrument therefore exempts Article 3 of the 2020 order from the clean sweep, meaning its effect will be preserved after the sentencing code is commenced. As a result, whenever a court deals with an offender under the sentencing code for an offence committed before the 2020 order came into force, the amount of surcharge payable by the offender will remain the amount that applied when the offence was committed.

17:05
Lord Blunkett Portrait Lord Blunkett (Lab)
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It is in no way to disrespect the noble Baroness, who has made a good fist of explaining this very simple measure, to say that I am extremely sorry that the Advocate-General, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, was not able to be with us, for reasons we understand. I put on record that it is critical that we applaud those who show such a principled and moral stand. I have no idea what the response will be from Downing Street, but our thoughts are with him.

I am participating in this very simple instrument because I took part in the debate on the consolidation Act and raised one or two questions about whether it would be possible to use the exemption facility we are debating this evening to deal with one outstanding anomaly. I do not expect the Minister to respond in detail, but I would be very grateful if she would take this back to the Ministry of Justice with a view to trying to examine it.

Taking the regulations before us, I am slightly mystified as to whether someone who commits or committed an offence that duly warranted a surcharge under the sentencing code before the measure came in, and committed a similar offence afterwards, would be charged two different rates. Perhaps that is an esoteric point, but it seems to me that there was some ambiguity in how it was outlined in the Explanatory Memorandum.

I particularly want to raise IPP prisoners with indeterminate sentences. I was responsible for both the surcharge and the subsequent mistaken implementation of the IPP. The surcharge has held; the IPP sentence was abolished eight years ago. However, people are being sentenced now for minor breaches of the terms laid down by the Parole Board under the previous legislation and are therefore subject to exactly the same terms of incarceration as they were prior to the abolition of the Act in 2012, even though the minor offence or breach might warrant a very small sentence—including, perhaps, regulations of this sort, with surcharge and reparations. Could the noble Baroness go back and see whether some of the outstanding issues here could be resolved in this way?

Finally, as everyone here and online knows, today the Government published a White Paper on sentencing. It included some of the things I talked about 17 years ago, such as the importance of a victims’ code, which also went through the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act in the same year. It talks about trying to sort out issues relating to low-level offences, as we might call them, and the sentencing appropriate for them, and the strengthening of sentences for more heinous crimes. We went through all this, and I would like the noble Baroness to take back to the Lord Chancellor and Justice Secretary one simple thing: is any sentencing code to be left to those participating in the judiciary, with the Lord Chancellor chairing that, or is it to be laid down rigidly? This was quite a contentious issue 17 years ago, and I erred on the side of allowing the Sentencing Council to determine the guidance and therefore the terms on which the law would be implemented. Having been severely rapped over the knuckles since for not having been more prescriptive, I put on record that I hope the present Justice Secretary gets the balance right.

17:10
Lord Thomas of Gresford Portrait Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD) [V]
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My Lords, I add my personal tribute to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen of Elie, the Advocate-General for Scotland. Over the past number of years, he has held some very difficult briefs and has done so with great professionalism and aplomb. I have admired him for it, although I must say that I have not envied his position. It so happened that a year ago, when I was ill at home, I had the opportunity of watching the whole of the Prorogation proceedings before the Supreme Court, when he was in charge of a very difficult and, ultimately, losing case and he did that very well. On a personal level, he has always been extremely polite and pleasant, and I am glad that he has taken the route of honour, which I hope will be followed by the Lord Chancellor, Robert Buckland, who I also know to be, both personally and professionally, a very decent man. I imagine that he will be tortured in the same way as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, has no doubt been in the past few months.

I must confess that I am a little puzzled by the regulations, as is the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett. We all applauded the clean sweep provisions of the Sentencing (Pre-consolidation Amendments) Act 2020. The regulations appear to maintain the level of a surcharge ordered by the court at the level which was appropriate at the time of the offence. As I understand it, the surcharge was designed to transfer some of the costs of a court hearing, including support for victims, to an offender, and it varies according to the nature and seriousness of the offence and the overall sentence passed. It seems that under the regulations the clerk of the court will have to maintain a record indefinitely of the level of historic surcharges as they apply from time to time, and thus lose the benefit of the clean-sweep principle. Since the cost to the public purse of the court hearing and of support for victims is at the time the court hearing takes place, not at the time of the offence, I fail to see the logic of this.

My understanding of the situation has not been helped by the fact that my search for the Statutory Instrument 2020/310, the effect of which this order purports to retain, produced a nil return on the government website. I hope, therefore, I will be forgiven if my understanding is at fault, but it seems to me that the simple question is: why should an offender not contribute towards the current cost of a court hearing and of support for victims, rather than the cost at the time they committed an offence? In any event, what discretion does the court have in fixing the amount of the surcharge and does it vary in accordance with the offender’s ability to pay? I would be grateful for a response from the Minister on these points.

17:13
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede Portrait Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, I, too, pay a personal tribute to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, who has always been extremely courteous and helpful to me.

These regulations relate to the Sentencing (Pre-consolidation Amendments) Act 2020, which is a precursor to the introduction of a sentencing code and consolidates all previous sentencing legislation into a single code for the ease and convenience of both the judiciary and the public. There are, however, some exemptions, to which the noble Lords, Lord Thomas and Lord Blunkett, have referred. This instrument creates a further exemption in relation to victim surcharge, which has recently been increased by 5%. Specifically, this instrument means that any offence committed before the change to the victim surcharge should be charged at the old rate. I have a few questions for the Minister.

First, why has this instrument been created after the passing of the sentencing Act? Could it instead have been included in the Bill and thus afforded further scrutiny? Secondly, the revenue from the victim surcharge forms part of the Ministry of Justice’s victim and witness programme, which is largely sent directly to the police and crime commissioners. Can the Minister confirm that the changes in this instrument have been communicated to the PCCs so that they can better budget how much they will receive from the programmes?

As some noble Lords may know, I also sit as a magistrate, so I regularly apply the victim surcharge to various cases I sentence. It is very unclear—certainly from the court’s point of view, or, I suspect, from the Government’s—where the money goes for the victim surcharge. We know that it goes to the PCCs but, as far as I know, there is no central government assessment of the effectiveness of the money spent to support victims and witnesses. I have pursued that in other forums through the Magistrates’ Association and more widely in London. It is very unclear how this money is spent, and it seems that there is no central assessment of the effectiveness of using it to support victims.

I therefore hope that the Minister will undertake in some way to look at the effectiveness of the victim surcharge and making the PCCs accountable for the money passed through to them.

17:17
Baroness Scott of Bybrook Portrait Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
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My Lords, I am grateful for the limited but good contributions to this debate. Before I answer some of noble Lords’ questions, I reiterate that the purpose of this instrument is to ensure that offenders sentenced under the sentencing code for offences they committed before the Criminal Justice Act 2003 (Surcharge) (Amendment) Order 2020 came into force will not be liable for the increased surcharge amounts specified in that order.

I will address a couple of the points. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, I will look at Hansard, particularly the outstanding issues that he brought up from previous debates, and I will ask the department to look at how we might respond to him.

There is a difference between this and the sentencing White Paper, which I believe was published yesterday. This paper will look at sentencing policy. The Government are serious about fighting crime and protecting the public from its devastating consequences. Under this Government, the most serious offenders are more likely to go to prison and for longer, helping to protect the public and keep communities safe. That is what the White Paper will hold, and we expect that it will eventually come through as legislation. However, the legislation we are talking about that this instrument applies to is the Law Commission’s Sentencing Bill. That will consolidate all the sentencing procedural law in England and Wales into a sentencing code, which will provide courts with a point of reference for procedural provisions which govern the sentencing process. The Sentencing Bill does not introduce any new sentencing law, amend the maximum penalties available for criminal offences or increase the scope of minimum sentencing provisions. They are therefore very different pieces of legislation. It is important to understand that, and that this small instrument needs to be laid just before the sentencing code comes in so that we are fair to all offenders in future.

I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, is puzzled but I am sure we can help. He says that there is a discrepancy over surcharge levels. A factsheet on surcharge levels is available and we can let him have it; it makes it very clear that, depending on the type of sentence, whether you are a young person, an adult or an organisation, there are different amounts and the courts will use those surcharge levels to determine how much has to be paid by the offender.

On the point of the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, I talked about the Sentencing Act—not the Sentencing Bill. On the PCCs, the whole issue of what happens to the surcharges is important—I asked the same question. However, the Government feel that it is an important charge on offenders, both individuals and organisations, by the court. It is collected alongside all other criminal impositions by the National Compliance and Enforcement Service, which is part of HMCTS.

The purpose of the victim surcharge is to make sure that offenders hold some responsibility for the cost of helping the victims cope with and recover from the impact of their crimes. The level of surcharge imposed is dependent on the severity of the sentence the offender receives, whether they were under the age of 18 or an adult when the offence was committed and whether they are an individual or an organisation.

The victim surcharge contributes, as I have said, to the victim and witness budget, which is used to fund support services for victims and witnesses of crime. In 2019-20, about a third of the victim and witness budget, which was just over £92 million, came from the victim surcharge.

The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, asked about the ability to pay. We estimate that around 65% to 70% of all victim surcharges imposed are collected. However, collection rates vary considerably from year to year. In 2018-19, £46 million of the victim surcharge was imposed on offenders and £34 million was collected. Therefore it differs, but the Government feel that it is important for offenders to understand their responsibility to victims and witnesses. However, this is a small piece of regulation that will also be fair to the offender as we move forward into a different way of working.

With that, I commend this instrument to the Committee.

Motion agreed.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)
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That completes the business before the Grand Committee this afternoon. I remind Members to sanitise their desks and chairs before leaving the Room. The Committee stands adjourned. Good afternoon.

Committee adjourned at 5.24 pm.

House of Lords

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Wednesday 16 September 2020
The House met in a hybrid proceeding.
12:00
Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of St Albans.

Arrangement of Business

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Announcement
12:08
Lord McFall of Alcluith Portrait The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
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My Lords, the Hybrid Sitting of the House will now begin. Some Members are here in the Chamber, respecting social distancing, and others are participating remotely, but all Members will be treated equally. If the capacity of the Chamber is exceeded, I will immediately adjourn the House. Oral Questions will now commence. Noble Lords asking supplementary questions should please keep them short and confined to two points. I ask that Ministers’ answers are also brief.

House of Lords: Number of Members

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Question
12:08
Asked by
Lord Grocott Portrait Lord Grocott
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To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the case for an upper limit on the number of members of the House of Lords.

Lord True Portrait The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)
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My Lords, the size of the House of Lords needs addressing, but given retirements and other departures, some new Members are essential to keep the expertise and outlook of the House fresh. This will ensure that the House continues to fulfil its role in scrutinising and revising legislation, while respecting the primacy of the Commons.

Lord Grocott Portrait Lord Grocott (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, when the Minister checks Hansard, he will see that that was not an Answer to the Question that I put. Is he aware of the concern right across the House that, at a time when we are voluntarily reducing our numbers, the Government seem to be going in exactly the opposite direction? Have the Johnson Government abandoned the May Government’s support for reducing our size, and do they believe that there should be any limit whatever on how much larger the House should become?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, the preceding Prime Minister did not accept the Burns committee’s recommendation that the Prime Minister should commit to a specific cap on numbers, and that is the position of the Government.

Lord Dubs Portrait Lord Dubs (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, is not the truth that the Government are doing everything possible to belittle this place by stuffing it, staffing the Tory Benches and other means? Is not the problem for the Government that they want to reduce the legitimacy of this House because they do not like our stand on humanitarian principles and the rule of law?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, the noble Lord sat in this House when it was much larger than it is today. So far as stuffing the House is concerned, Mr Blair put 374 Peers in this place.

Lord Wigley Portrait Lord Wigley (PC) [V]
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My Lords, my party, Plaid Cymru, has four times as many Members in the House of Commons as it has in this Chamber. If the proportions were correct, we would have a Chamber of just 200 Members. Given that that is not going to happen, is the only way for smaller parties to get a fair voice here by having a fully elected Chamber that would deliver greater representational fairness and give this Chamber the political credibility that it currently lacks?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, the voice of Wales is extraordinarily important, and it is well served in this House by some of the outstanding Members who come from that great Principality. The noble Lord makes a point of policy. The last coalition Government presented to your Lordships and the other place proposals for an elected House, but they did not at that time find favour.

Baroness Noakes Portrait Baroness Noakes (Con)
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My Lords, last year, your Lordships’ House demonstrated that it was spectacularly out of step with the country as a whole over Brexit. Does the Minister agree that it is more important to remedy that than to focus on the numerical size of the House?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, every Member of your Lordships’ House has the right to express a personal opinion, and long may we do so. However, it is important, as my noble friend says, that the House reflects on the risk of becoming out of step with public opinion on this great question.

Lord Tyler Portrait Lord Tyler (LD) [V]
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My Lords, does the Minister accept that, following the huge majority for the 2012 House of Lords Reform Bill which Sir George Young, as he then was, secured at Second Reading, this House could by now be well on the way to being a 450-strong senate with a democratic mandate? Further, will he acknowledge that it was only the silly party games played by the then Labour leadership with reactionary Tory Back-Benchers that stopped that Bill in its tracks?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I think that the noble Lord has rather upset our colleagues on the Labour Benches. Many histories of that period could be written. The fact is that legislation was presented and, as I said in an earlier answer, it did not find favour at the time.

Lord Norton of Louth Portrait Lord Norton of Louth (Con) [V]
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Does my noble friend accept that an upper limit on the size of the House would impose a valuable discipline upon the Government in selecting nominees to fill a vacancy, and, combined with the other recommendations of the Burns committee, ensure a House that was not only smaller but more balanced than the existing House?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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No, my Lords. The cardinal facts of this House—which is unique, and that is one of its splendours—are that it is unelected, its Members sit for life and it cannot be dissolved. In those circumstances, the question of a cap raises profound constitutional questions, which, as the previous Prime Minister said, deserve reflection.

Baroness Hayman Portrait Baroness Hayman (CB) [V]
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My Lords, when numbers in your Lordships’ House go up, public respect for the House goes down. The Minister said that the previous Prime Minister did not endorse a cap on the size of the House, and that is quite correct, but she did commit to restraint in appointments. Given how seriously the House takes the issue of reducing numbers, can the Minister tell me what conversations the noble Baroness the Leader of the House—the whole House—has had with colleagues in the House, with the leaders and the Convenor, and with her right honourable friend the Prime Minister, about this issue? If he does not have that information to hand, perhaps he could write to me.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, as that question is about the Leader of the House, I think that she would have to address it herself. So far as the numbers are concerned, I dispute that there is any correlation between the size of the House and the respect in which it is held. I remember the very great respect in which the House was held before 1999.

Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
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My Lords, there is so much in what the Minister has said that it is hard to know where to start. First, his Answer to my noble friend Lord Grocott on what assessment has been made of the case for an upper limit was that no assessment has been made. On his point about the House having been larger, it was significantly larger pre-1999, with a large number of hereditary Peers, 92 of whom remain. On his comment about Prime Ministers making appointments, the fact remains that David Cameron, when Prime Minister, appointed more Peers per year than any other Prime Minister since 1958, when life peerages came in, with more for the governing party.

The Minister talks about the House needing to be refreshed, and he is absolutely right. However, if he wants to refresh the numbers in the House, why is it that, having lost over 30 Members from the Labour Benches since June 2017, nothing like that figure has replaced them to refresh our numbers, whereas there were huge numbers on the last list to refresh the Conservative Benches? If this House wants to reduce the numbers, it must be so that we can be effective and do the job that we are best at, not to play party-political games, which the leader of the Conservative Party, the Prime Minister, seems to want to do. He wants to play the numbers game and pack this House, because he thinks that the winner takes all.

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I do not agree with the strictures of the noble Baroness, who I respect tremendously. I said in my first Answer that the size of the Lords needs addressing, but I added some considerations thereafter. I do not accept that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister is “packing the House”. The question asked by my noble friend Lady Noakes shows that the House has a very independent mind.

Lord McFall of Alcluith Portrait The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
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I call the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno. Lord Roberts? I call the noble Baroness, Lady Deech.

Baroness Deech Portrait Baroness Deech (CB) [V]
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It seems to me that legislation to cap our numbers is being blocked in a way that does us no credit. Will the Minister urge the party groupings each to find a consensual way to limit their own numbers? The House of Lords Appointments Commission needs power to vet the suitability of proposed Peers or to cap the numbers. I hope that he agrees. If ever there was a case for getting rid of royal prerogative, this is it. I suspect that the Government think that only by shovelling us into a less comfortable venue during refurbishment, or by going entirely virtual for the duration, will we find a large number of retirements. That is not the way to do it. How does he propose that we do it?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My Lords, I cannot follow the noble Baroness on many of the things that she has said, other than I hope that one day we might get back to not being a virtual House—that I do agree with. I repeat that there are difficulties in relation to this House: it is unelected, Members sit for life and the House cannot be dissolved. That raises issues for reflection on a cap, as the previous Prime Minister implied.

Earl of Shrewsbury Portrait The Earl of Shrewsbury (Con)
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My Lords, as an excepted hereditary Peer, I am obviously fair game. However, does my noble friend not agree that one way to reduce the size of this House is to ask the Liberal Democrat Benches to reduce their number to one which is proportionate to their share of the national vote?

Lord True Portrait Lord True (Con)
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My noble friend is spot on on that one, and I hear assent in many parts of the House—perhaps not all. That used to be that party’s policy, and perhaps it would be good if it returned to it.

Lord McFall of Alcluith Portrait The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
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My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked and we now move to the next Question.

Planning

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Question
12:19
Asked by
Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark
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To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to ensure that any changes to the planning system will improve (1) building standards, (2) safety, (3) environmental impacts, and (4) the well-being of residents.

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)
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My Lords, our proposal for a reformed planning system is centred on encouraging more beautiful development in places, improving the quality of housing and green spaces, and increasing community engagement in ensuring development enhances the environment, health and character of local areas. We are also implementing fundamental reforms to the building safety system so that residents are, and feel, safe in their homes.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
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My Lords, I declare my relevant interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association, chair of Heart of Medway Housing Association and non-executive director of MHS Homes Ltd. Planning decisions are here for the long term, so how will the Minister and his department ensure that developers’ interests are also clearly focused on building stable communities—on that community partnership he talks about—and building for a future that really will stand the test of time?

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
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My Lords, there is a strong case for reform of a system that was first put into place some seven decades ago with the Town and Country Planning Act 1947. The focus is on ensuring a much more map-based system towards local plans and engaging with communities to work out whether those developments should take place. In that sense, the development community will follow.

Lord Bishop of St Albans Portrait The Lord Bishop of St Albans
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My Lords, the latest English housing survey reveals that only 9% of our housing stock has key disability accessibility features. Disability in old age is frequent, and with the ONS estimating that one in four people will be aged 65 or over by 2050 it is vital that we cater for what we are going to need. Although the recently announced government consultation into this issue is welcome, can the Minister confirm that prior to any changes in planning law, the recommendations of this consultation will be fully implemented to ensure that the vulnerable are not left behind?

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
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My Lords, I can assure the House that we will consider the needs of all residents, including the vulnerable and the disabled, in ensuring that we have the high-quality design and the beautiful and healthy places that they need.

Lord Moynihan Portrait Lord Moynihan (Con)
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My Lords, will the Minister ensure that in any changes to the planning system there will be an emphasis on recreational opportunities to deliver improvements in the quality of life, health and well-being of the population? The protection and provision of sports pitches and the promotion of dual and multiuse facilities where feasible is critical to achieving public health outcomes relating to diet, obesity and physical activity.

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
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My Lords, my noble friend is, of course, a great champion for the importance of sport and recreation. I can give him those assurances. The National Planning Policy Framework encourages local planning policy decisions to ensure that developments create places that promote health and well-being, with a high standard of amenity for existing and future users.

Lord Best Portrait Lord Best (CB) [V]
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My Lords, the Government are proposing that the usual planning requirement on housebuilders to provide some affordable housing will be removed from all new developments of up to 40 or even 50 homes for the next two years or so. Does the Minister accept that this change would lead to the loss of some 20% per annum of affordable accommodation from these planning agreements, as Savills has calculated? Does he agree that the loss could be far worse if housebuilders divide their larger schemes into two or more developments of fewer than 40 homes each? In rural areas, where most developments are, of course, smaller, will this not virtually wipe out desperately needed affordable new homes from this source for local people?

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
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My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Best, is an absolute expert in social housing. I recognise that there is a proposed change and I encourage him to communicate with the consultation, which is ongoing until the end of October. We have committed to delivering a range of different types of affordable housing and have announced a £12 billion affordable homes programme to ensure the continued development of affordable housing.

Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe Portrait Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe (Lab)
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My Lords, I declare an interest as the chair of the National Housing Federation. I am anxious that the proposed changes to the planning system will undermine the already limited provision of affordable homes for rent, particularly, as the noble Lord, Lord Best, said, in rural areas. The White Paper’s revised method for calculating housing need appears to divert funding for new homes to prosperous areas. Will the Minister explain how this contributes to the Government’s levelling-up agenda? Will he work with the affordable housing sector to ensure that any reforms deliver for the communities that need these houses most?

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
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My Lords, there is absolutely no intention to divert funding to prosperous areas from more deprived communities. I am meeting with the National Housing Federation later this week and I will take this up and make relevant representations to the department, but that is certainly not the policy intention of the proposed reforms.

Baroness Thornhill Portrait Baroness Thornhill (LD)
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My Lords, I declare my interest: I too am a vice-president of the Local Government Association. The Minister referred to building beautiful and quality. The reality is that every single day, planning officers encourage, argue with, and even go to battle with developers to produce high-quality schemes according to their local policies. Will the Minister explain how things will be different with the nationally proposed, one-size-fits-all design codes? Does he not agree that the answer might be not government-devised design codes, but giving local councils more power to enforce their own?

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
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My Lords, the approach is obviously to move to a more zonal system, although there needs to be a strong design code. The design codes and pattern books draw on the historical use of the Victorians to build beautiful homes, the likes of which we see in Bath and other parts of the country. The aim is to create a range of designs that will enable speedier planning. That is the benefit, rather than having an ad hoc approach to design.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes Portrait Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con) [V]
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My Lords, while there are many good things in this plan, it is essential that we retain the planning committee rights of local councils, which are so much more in touch with their communities than more remote groups. Local councils can see whether, for example, it is all right to add two extra floors to a house, but if that can just be done without any permission being sought as is suggested, that could be deadly for local people who suddenly find that that happens, and the next one does it and the next one. It really is important to leave the powers with local councils, which really care about their residents, and the residents feel closer to them than they do to a Parliament that often seems rather remote from them. Can I be assured that local councils will not be ousted in this matter?

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
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My Lords, I can assure my noble friend that local authorities will be essential in the process. They will continue to prepare the local plans and councils will have better, stronger tools to ensure good design and make the most of brownfield land.

Lord Whitty Portrait Lord Whitty (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, will the Government welcome the Architects’ Journal’s campaign on retrofit first? Far too often, developers favour demolition and rebuild when retrofit would have been more appropriate. This often has detrimental environmental effects such as emissions, detrimental social effects and sometimes dangerous safety outcomes. Will the new planning system favour retrofit as the first option wherever possible and ensure that in any replacement build or conversions, safety standards will really be effectively enforced?

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
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My Lords, I am aware of the campaign for retrofitting, and it often has a place instead of demolition and rebuild. I will look at the campaign and make sure that is fed into our policy as it evolves.

Baroness Thomas of Winchester Portrait Baroness Thomas of Winchester (LD) [V]
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My Lords, further to the right reverend Prelate’s question about accessible housing, does the Minister agree that category 2 housing should be the mandatory baseline for all new housing, as is the policy in London?

Lord Greenhalgh Portrait Lord Greenhalgh (Con)
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My Lords, I will have to write to the noble Baroness about that suggestion.

Lord McFall of Alcluith Portrait The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
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Baroness Bakewell. No? My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked. We now move to the next Question.

River Pollution

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Question
12:29
Asked by
Lord Harries of Pentregarth Portrait Lord Harries of Pentregarth
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To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of (1) the level of the pollution in rivers in England, and (2) the causes.

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait The Minister of State, Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park) (Con) [V]
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My Lords, the Environment Agency’s State of the Environment: Water Quality report in 2018 is the most recent assessment of water pollution. We assess pollution levels to understand their impact on water ecology and human health and to mitigate them. The main causes of pollution are agriculture, sewage discharges and chemicals from industry and other sectors, some of which still persist from past activities.

Lord Harries of Pentregarth Portrait Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB) [V]
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I thank the Minister for his Answer, but would he agree that the present situation is a total disgrace? More than 200,000 tonnes of raw sewage go into our rivers every year. Even in 2018 only 14% of our rivers passed as fit for purpose and they have probably got worse since then, and only three cases were taken to court in 2018, despite all this. Does he agree that there is a need for a much stronger regulatory regime? Does he also agree that the situation is so serious that we need some kind of parliamentary inquiry into what is happening to the nation’s well-being and health?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I certainly agree that much more needs to be done. I can tell noble Lords that a new task force has recently been set up between Defra, the Environment Agency, Ofwat and water companies, which will meet very regularly and set out proposals to reduce the frequency and volume of sewage discharge, while the Environment Bill that is coming soon to the House will place a statutory requirement on water companies to produce drainage and wastewater management plans. Investment by water companies, incidentally, has meant that pollutant loads to rivers from water industry discharges have declined by between 40% and 70% since 1995, and there are commitments of £4.6 billion of additional investment over the next five years.

Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford Portrait Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford (Con) [V]
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My Lords, while we respond to the Covid crisis, we must not neglect the public health risk posed by AMR. Some 12,000 people die every day from a resistant infection, and this is more important than ever during a pandemic. So the proper treatment of wastewater is essential to prevent the spread of antibiotic-resistant bacteria and genes into the environment, but research has recently found that the amount of antibiotics entering the River Thames would need to be cut by 80% to avoid the spread of superbugs. The AMR action plan commits us to finding innovative solutions for removing these drugs and bugs from our watercourses. Will the Minister please make addressing this a personal priority?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con) [V]
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AMR is one of the greatest health threats that we face, and there is an increasing focus globally on the environment as a potential reservoir and conduit for it. We are conducting research into the extent of human and animal exposure to AMR from the environment and the risks that it poses. We are funding research at the University of Newcastle, for instance, and working with academics at other universities, including Exeter. We are looking at the impacts of the overuse of antibiotics on industrial farms as well—a problem, I should say, that the industry itself has made a real effort to address. We have a five-year UK national action plan and we will take whatever additional action is necessary.

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Portrait Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]
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My Lords, I contribute from the Welsh Marches in Powys, which contain the headwaters of the Wye and the Severn. Our rivers are seriously at risk from an absolutely vast increase of intensive poultry units, in Powys in particular but also in Herefordshire in Shropshire. These leech phosphates and nitrogen into our rivers. May I respectfully suggest that the Government urgently look at this dangerous cross-border issue?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con) [V]
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The noble Lord is right: poor practice by farmers leads to run-off fertiliser, slurry, pesticides and various other chemicals, which are extremely damaging to river ecosystems. But even well-managed farms can have impacts on the environment. The catchment-sensitive farming and countryside stewardship schemes inform and incentivise farmers to manage their land in a better way—for example, creating buffer strips between fields and water courses, planting crops that preserve soil health and improving slurry storage, while the new Environmental Land Management Scheme set out in the Agriculture Bill will be a critically important part of a transition to more environmentally sensitive agriculture.

Lord Berkeley Portrait Lord Berkeley (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, the 200,000 occasions of raw sewage being discharged into rivers in 2019, mentioned by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, in his follow-up question, totalled 1.5 million hours of discharge, according to the Guardian. Does the Minister accept that it is quite clear that the Government or their agencies have no interest in enforcement? Do the Government accept the legal position, originally stated by the European Court of Justice, that untreated sewage can be released into water bodies only under exceptional circumstances? Clearly this is not being complied with. What urgent action are the Government going to take to deal with this—or are we leaving the EU just to become the dirty man of Europe?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con) [V]
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I certainly agree with the noble Lord that raw sewage should only ever be released into water systems as a last resort and in exceptional circumstances. As I mentioned in a previous answer, this issue has been taken up with great energy by my colleague in Defra, Minister Pow, who established and chairs the task force and is committed to doing what is needed from the regulatory, legislative and funding points of view to tackle this very serious problem.

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville Portrait Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD) [V]
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My Lords, there has been a steady increase in outdoor swimming clubs—“wild swimming”, as it has become known. Swimmers are unaware that rivers across the country contain toxic materials such as lead and mercury, as well as insecticides. The Government have committed themselves to ensuring that all rivers are of a good ecological standard by 2027. Will that target be reached? If not, when might it be?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con) [V]
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The Environment Agency takes water quality samples at all designated bathing waters during the bathing season. If the water fails in any way to meet the minimum standards, the agency then investigates. If a water company is found to be the cause, the agency then requires the company to take action. In 2019, 98.3% of designated bathing waters met the minimum standards, with 71% classified as excellent. Clearly we have a lot more to do, as all surveys have shown, but the Government have shown a commitment to tackling this issue, both from a legislative point of view and in terms of funding.

Lord Grantchester Portrait Lord Grantchester (Lab) [V]
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With Brexit achieved, reports over the summer suggested that the UK Government could now amend the requirements of the EU-derived water framework directive to make it easier to classify rivers as “good”. Can the Minister confirm whether this is the department’s intention? If so, would not the department’s time be better spent on addressing the root causes of river pollution rather than on lowering standards?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con) [V]
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Those reports were based on comments by Sir James Bevan, but they were inaccurate; in fact, they were entirely wrong. Sir James was talking about the importance of environmental regulation and how it can be used to achieve the best outcomes for our environment. He identified ways in which, for example, the water framework directive is not always the best measure of the health of our rivers, but he was very clear that the test of any changes whatever should be better environmental outcomes.

Baroness Redfern Portrait Baroness Redfern (Con) [V]
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My Lords, sewage remains one of the main pollutants in English waterways. With many pipes not monitored, and under a self-reporting system, it is up to individual water companies to tell the regulator. What level of duty are the Government proposing to require water companies to release figures on exactly how much raw sewage is being released, along with its duration and frequency?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con) [V]
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The Environment Bill that is soon to be introduced will, as I said, place a statutory requirement on water companies to produce drainage and wastewater management plans. In addition to that, water companies have agreed that between 2020 and 2025 they will be investing £4.6 billion to protect the environment, of which around £4 billion relates to wastewater.

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Portrait Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]
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My Lords, while I believe in tackling root causes, the Minister mentioned buffer zones. They are extremely practical because they reduce pollution going into watercourses and also create biodiversity corridors. At the moment the advice is for 20 metres. Is it perhaps time to increase that to 30 or even 40 metres, to make them even more effective?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con) [V]
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The noble Baroness makes an extremely important point. The department is actively looking at what more we can do using the new Nature4Climate Fund and the transition from CAP to ELM to incentivise a much higher standard of management either side of waterways throughout the country. I hope that on the back of that we will be able to produce a compelling programme.

Lord Browne of Ladyton Portrait Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, according to studies by Greenpeace and Manchester University, microplastic contamination, which brings an array of biodiversity problems to our waterways, is

“pervasive on all river channel beds.”

The UK banning microbeads is a step in the right direction, but only a drop in the ocean. What measures are the Government considering to prevent this and to clear the existing contamination of plastics, preferably before they break down into microplastics—or, worse, nanoplastics—en route to the sea?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con) [V]
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Chemicals come from almost all human activities. Much chemical pollution comes from domestic properties—for example, detergents, which go into the sewers—and that is going to continue as long as those chemicals are permissible to use. Particularly damaging chemicals such as mercury are priorities for international action and their use is now regulated or banned. Defra is looking very closely at microplastic pollution in the environment, specifically the water environment, and its work will inform the development of policies to mitigate it and to build on the recent microbead ban, which we introduced last year.

Lord McFall of Alcluith Portrait The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
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My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

Biodiversity

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Question
12:40
Tabled by
Lord Teverson Portrait Lord Teverson
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To ask Her Majesty’s Government, following the report by the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds, A lost decade for nature, published on 14 September, what action they are taking (1) to reverse biodiversity loss in the United Kingdom, and (2) to meet the Aichi Biodiversity Targets.

Baroness Parminter Portrait Baroness Parminter (LD) [V]
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My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Teverson, and with his permission, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait The Minister of State, Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park) (Con) [V]
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My Lords, in England the 25-year environment plan marks a step change in ambition for wildlife and the natural environment. The Government have announced significant funding and legislation to meet this ambition. The Aichi targets are international in scope. The Government have increased international biodiversity spending and are playing a leading role in developing an ambitious new global diversity framework. Nature will be at the heart of the UK COP 26 presidency, paving the way for transformative action.

Baroness Parminter Portrait Baroness Parminter (LD) [V]
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I hear what the Minister says, but last October he said that the Government were looking at legislative options to ban the burning of upland peat bogs and yet it has been reported that these plans have been shelved. Peat bogs are incredibly important ecological sites, supporting many rare and endangered species, helping to prevent flooding and store carbon. Are the Government going to ban peat burning or continue their failure over the last decade to meet agreed international biodiversity targets?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con) [V]
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As the noble Baroness will know, we are currently engaging with stakeholders on the content of the England peat strategy and we expect it to be published later this year. The Government have always been clear—as I have—on the need to phase out the burning of protected blanket bog to conserve those vulnerable habitats. We are looking at how legislation can achieve this and are considering next steps.

Lord McNicol of West Kilbride Portrait Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab)
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My Lords, the United Kingdom’s sixth national report on the convention on biological diversity, published by the JNCC in 2019, concluded that there is still significant work to be done. To cite a few examples: there is an overall picture of ongoing species decline and a significant proportion of the best wildlife habitat inside and outside protected sites remains unfavourable. There has also been a short-term fall in the Government’s funding of biodiversity in the UK. Will the Minister explain exactly what has been done since the release of the JNCC report to rectify these failings?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con) [V]
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The noble Lord is right in that, from 1970 to 2016 the relative abundance of priority species in the UK saw a dramatic decline of around 60%. Many but not all species groups show long-term decline, so we clearly need major improvements. We have expanded our protected areas at sea dramatically in recent months and years. We have provided new funding for woodland expansion. We have put aside a £640 million nature for climate fund. We have committed to 30,000 hectares of tree planting or regeneration each year. Peatland restoration and nature recovery have also been resourced to bring us closer to achieving the 25-year plan goals. We have greatly increased our funding for international biodiversity; perhaps more than any other country.

Baroness Walmsley Portrait Baroness Walmsley (LD) [V]
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My Lords, the RSPB report emphasises that biodiversity is strongly linked to climate change. To meet our targets, we must take action on all fronts, including farming. In order to produce low-carbon British food, a company wants to build greenhouses in Wrexham using waste heat and emissions from the sewage works next to the site. Will the Minister support this enterprise in the interests of climate action and biodiversity protection?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con) [V]
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The Government stand ready to support whatever action is necessary to boost biodiversity in this country and to reverse the depressing trends that have already been described. The RSPB is absolutely right to say that we cannot solve climate change without restoring and protecting nature on an unprecedented scale. Forests, for instance, hold 80% of the world’s biodiversity; their destruction is the second biggest source of carbon emissions. As president of COP, we intend to draw as strong a link as possible between what we are doing at COP and what the Chinese will be doing as host of the CBD just a few months before the biodiversity COP. We are working very closely with China to ensure that that happens.

Baroness Hooper Portrait Baroness Hooper (Con) [V]
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My Lords, may I start by congratulating and thanking the RSPB not only on this report but on the regular briefings and support it gives us? Since most of the UK’s biodiversity is to be found in the overseas territories, will the Minister tell us to what extent the Government’s plans to which he has referred cover and include the overseas territories? Will he welcome a short debate on this topic? I have a motion tabled and am merely seeking a slot.

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con) [V]
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I always welcome debate, particularly around the issue of our magnificent overseas territories. My noble friend is right: the overseas territories contain about 90% of the UK’s endemic species and we are very keen to increase our protection of them. For instance, we have increased to £10 million a year the Darwin Plus funding scheme. We are also on track, as my noble friend will know, with our Blue Belt programme to protect an area roughly the size of India. We hope to be able to grow it still further, perhaps even in the remaining months of this year. Protecting the biodiversity on land and in the waters around our overseas territories is and will remain a priority.

Baroness Boycott Portrait Baroness Boycott (CB) [V]
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My Lords, I thank the Minister for his answers. In the wake of this devastating report and the UN report, the design of cities also comes under the spotlight. We live in cities more and more, and yet they do not need to be environmental wastelands. What will come forward in the Environment Bill to create green infrastructures and make space for nature inside our cities, so they can play their part in helping us recover our lost biodiversity?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con) [V]
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The noble Baroness is right. In addition to greatly increasing our investments overseas in cities to enable people to deal with the warming effects of climate change and to reduce the temperature of cities, in this country we are increasing our funding for tree planting in our cities. We are yet to provide all the details for that. We will allow the policies to be informed by the England Tree Strategy, which we are processing at the moment and on the back of which we will develop what we hope will be a compelling and ambitious programme. I recognise that that is just one part of what needs to happen in our cities to enable people to have better access to and enjoyment of nature, but it is an important part.

Lord Grantchester Portrait Lord Grantchester (Lab) [V]
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The RSPB’s report, supported by the publication of Global Biodiversity Outlook 5, suggests a significant disparity between the UK Government’s view of their progress towards the Aichi targets and reality on the ground. What steps will the Minister’s department take to review how such progress is measured, and how will the Government ensure that they achieve greater compliance with the targets to be set for 2030?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con) [V]
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We do not dispute that protected areas, which include protected sites and landscapes and other measures, need to be better managed. The Government have been very clear on this issue. I think the RSPB accepts that the quantity target has been exceeded but clearly, more needs to be done to improve the quality of our protected areas. As I have outlined, actions are in place to do so.

Baroness Burt of Solihull Portrait Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD) [V]
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My Lords, we have failed. Not only have we not met 17 of the 20 Aichi targets in Britain; we have gone backwards on some of them. Clearly, we cannot be trusted to save our own wildlife unless we make ourselves take the action needed. Is not now the time to get serious and set legally binding targets for our own sakes, as well as the sake of our wildlife and, ultimately, our planet?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con) [V]
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It is absolutely correct to say that we have failed to meet those Aichi targets. The Government have not sought to shirk from that or to mask the research that has been produced. However, I argue that the Environment Bill, Agriculture Bill and Fisheries Bill—combined with new sources of funding such as the Nature4Climate fund, our plans for nature recovery networks and much more besides—will put us on track to meet the obligations that we signed up to internationally. In addition, we have not only doubled our international climate finance to £11.6 billion, we have committed to spending a big chunk of that uplift on nature-based solutions. We are taking that core message to the world in the run-up to the COP.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Portrait Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]
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Further to the Written Answer that the Minister gave me on 25 June, which said that

“it is not possible to confirm on available data whether there has been an increase in”

raptor persecution during the Covid crisis, have the Government now caught up with the statistics? If not, I can direct him to the Raptor Persecution UK website, which reports today the total tally of

“44 hen harriers ‘missing’ or confirmed killed since 2018”.


It notes that this is

“ten times more likely to occur over … land managed for grouse shooting”.

Given this, why did the Government create a special exemption from Covid-19 health restrictions last weekend for driven grouse shooting and other shooting? Should they not instead ban driven grouse shooting and the release of pheasants for shooting, as an emergency measure to tackle the crisis that this report identifies?

Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park Portrait Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con) [V]
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We are aware of reports that there has been an increase in wildlife crime, particularly that associated with raptor persecution, during lockdown. Raptor persecution is one of the UK’s six wildlife crime priorities and we understand that there are a number of criminal investigations ongoing. However, I am afraid that it is not yet possible to confirm, on available data, whether there has been an increase. I would welcome access to the report that the noble Baroness mentions. On the Government’s decision last week, she will note that it exactly mirrors decisions taken by the Labour Government in Wales and the SNP in Scotland, and is not—as has been reported—a special dispensation for any particular form of activity.

Lord McFall of Alcluith Portrait The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
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My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

Business of the House

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Timing of Debates
12:52
Moved by
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
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That the debate on the motion in the name of Lord True set down for Wednesday 23 September be limited to 4½ hours and not 3 hours.

Lord Cormack Portrait Lord Cormack (Con)
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My Lords, I do not want to detain the House for more than a few seconds, really. While I am grateful that there is to be a debate on the negotiations with our European friends and former partners, I regret the fact that it is not on the Floor of the House. There is a strong tradition in your Lordships’ House that important constitutional issues are debated on the Floor of the House. I cannot think of any more important issue, particularly in the light of very recent announcements. Therefore, while I thank my noble friend for the opportunity to have the debate. could we not have a guarantee that, within a short space of time, there will be a full day’s debate on the Floor of your Lordships’ House?

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)
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The debate will take place in Grand Committee because we need to debate SIs on the Floor of the House that day. Obviously, all noble Lords will be aware—because many are participating—that we have an extremely heavy legislative agenda, which we are working through together. However, we recognise that many noble Lords have requested a debate on this topic so we have come to this arrangement in order to facilitate it.

Motion agreed.

Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Order of Commitment
12:54
Moved by
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
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That, if the bill’s Committee stage is not concluded by the rise of the House on Wednesday 16 September, the bill be reported from the Committee of the Whole House in respect of proceedings up to that date; and that, for the remainder of the bill, the order of commitment of 22 July 2020 be discharged and the bill be committed to a Grand Committee.

Baroness Evans of Bowes Park Portrait The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)
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My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Williams, I beg to move the Motion standing in her name on the Order Paper.

Motion agreed.

Pension Protection Fund (Moratorium and Arrangements and Reconstructions for Companies in Financial Difficulty) Regulations 2020

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Motion to Approve
12:54
Moved by
Baroness Stedman-Scott Portrait Baroness Stedman-Scott
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That the Regulations laid before the House on 6 July be approved.

Relevant document: 23rd Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 14 September.

Baroness Stedman-Scott Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Stedman-Scott) (Con)
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My Lords, in moving this Motion I should clarify remarks I made during the debate on these regulations, which took place in Grand Committee on Monday, concerning their application to certain charitable incorporated organisations. Following the making and laying of these regulations, the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport made the Charitable Incorporated Organisations (Insolvency and Dissolution) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2020, which disapplied Section A51 of the Insolvency Act 1986 in relation to charitable incorporated organisations. Section A51 was cited in the making of the SI before the House, which means that as a result of the DCMS regulations the provisions in this SI have not applied to charitable incorporated organisations since 13 August 2020. This does not affect the validity of the powers used to make these regulations; the powers applied to charitable incorporated organisations at the time this SI was made. Likewise, its application to charitable incorporated organisations until 13 August is not affected.

The legal effect of the DCMS SI is one of implied repeal of the provisions from that date onwards. So far as they apply to charitable incorporated organisations, a legal position, we think, is clear. The Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport has since indicated in a memorandum to the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments its intention to bring forward legislation, at the next available opportunity, to correct the position to that reflected in the regulations before the House today.

Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
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My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister, but I cannot have been the only one in your Lordships’ House struggling to follow the information she gave to us. I was not 100% clear because she said that the “legal position, we think, is clear”. I do not know whether that means “We are not sure whether it is clear; we only think it is clear”, or whether those who debated this in Committee have been made aware of the information she has brought before your Lordships’ House today.

I have not fully understood the implications of everything she said—I do not know whether other noble Lords have. It may be that it has no material impact, but maybe it does. Before we agree this Motion today, I wonder whether she ought to consult those who were in that Committee so that everyone who debated the regulations is clear that there is no material difference, given the rather lengthy and complex explanation she has given today.

Baroness Stedman-Scott Portrait Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)
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I am happy to respond to the noble Baroness’s points; this is, indeed, a complex matter. I am confident that the legislation we intend to bring forward at the earliest opportunity will clarify matters, but I will consult with the Members of the Grand Committee to make sure that everybody is clear about the impact of this change.

Lord McFall of Alcluith Portrait The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
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The Question is that the Motion in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, be agreed to. As many—

Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
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My Lords, I think that the Minister has just said that, before agreeing it, she will take it back to Members to see if they are happy with it because there is some complication. That was the implication of what she said: she was not going to put it forward for a vote today until she had consulted people.

She is checking with the Clerk so I will keep talking for a second while she gets advice. However, I am still not clear. I thought she said she was agreeing to take it back and consult with Members who were on that Committee.

Baroness Stedman-Scott Portrait Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)
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I am advised that I am not able to withdraw the Motion, but I am quite happy to make sure that people understand exactly what is meant. I beg to move.

Lord McFall of Alcluith Portrait The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
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The Question is that the Motion in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, be agreed to. As many as are of that opinion will say “Content”; to the contrary “Not content”.

None Portrait Noble Lords
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Content.

None Portrait Noble Lords
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Not Content.

Baroness Smith of Basildon Portrait Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
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My Lords, I will not necessarily push this to a vote at the moment, but I say to the Minister that the reason why she says it cannot be withdrawn is that it comes into force today. If she has not consulted Members of the Committee on something so complex before bringing a Motion to your Lordships’ House today, there is a serious issue here. Are these “made affirmative” regulations, which come into force whether we debate and agree them or not? I am not clear. I have to be honest that I am completely at a loss as to what is happening at the moment, but it seems that there is some question mark over the validity of this and whether it is correct. I may be wrong and everything may be in order. However, it was complex and I did not fully understand what she was putting forward today.

Baroness Stedman-Scott Portrait Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)
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I advise that they are “made affirmative” and to be dealt with today. I can only reaffirm what I have said: it is a complex matter but I am confident that the legislation we intend to bring forward at the earliest opportunity will clarify matters.

Lord McFall of Alcluith Portrait The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
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If that is of sufficient clarity, I will ask the Question.

Motion agreed.
13:00
Sitting suspended.

Arrangement of Business

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Announcement
13:06
Lord Duncan of Springbank Portrait The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)
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My Lords, a technical difficulty has caused a little delay. Noble Lords will be pleased to know that the difficulty now appears to have been resolved. The Hybrid Sitting of the House will now resume.

Coronavirus

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Commons Urgent Question
The following Answer to an Urgent Question was given on Tuesday 15 September in the House of Commons.
“Coronavirus exists only to spread, and yesterday the World Health Organization once again announced a record number of cases globally. France and Spain have both reported daily figures of over 10,000 positive cases and increasing hospitalisations. Here in the UK, we saw around 2,600 new cases yesterday, and last week medical advisers advised that R is above 1. The epidemic is growing.
There are signs that the number of cases in care homes and the number of hospitalisations is starting to rise again, so last week we acted quickly, putting in place new measures—the rule of six, which came into force yesterday. We do not do this lightly, but the cost of doing nothing is much greater.
Testing also has a vital part to play. Everyone in this House knows that we are doing more testing per head of population than almost any other major nation, and I can tell the House that we have now carried out over 20 million tests for coronavirus in this country. As we expand capacity further, we are working round the clock to make sure that everyone who needs a test can get a test. The vast majority of people who use our testing service get a test that is close to home, and the average distance travelled to a test site is now just 5.8 miles—down from 6.4 miles last week; but the whole House knows that there are operational challenges, and we are working hard to fix them.
We have seen a sharp rise in people coming forward for a test, including those who are not eligible. Throughout this pandemic, we have prioritised testing according to need. Over the summer when demand was low, we were able to meet all requirements for testing, whether priorities or not, but as demand has risen we are having to prioritise once again. I do not shirk from decisions about prioritisation. They are not always comfortable, but they are important. The top priority is, and always has been, acute clinical care. The next priority is social care, where we are now sending over 100,000 tests a day, because we have all seen the risks this virus poses in care homes. We will set out in full an updated prioritisation, and I do not rule out further steps to ensure our tests are used according to those priorities. It is a choice that we must make.
Finally, to defeat this virus in the long term needs effective vaccines and treatments. I am delighted to say that over the weekend the trial of the Oxford vaccine restarted, and I can tell the House that we will now be trialling a promising new antibody treatment on coronavirus patients in the UK. The challenges are serious. We must work to overcome them, optimistic in the face even of these huge challenges, and to keep this deadly virus under control.”
13:07
Baroness Thornton Portrait Baroness Thornton (Lab)
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My Lords, the Prime Minister claimed again today that the UK does more Covid tests than anywhere else in Europe. This is not true. Denmark does almost twice as many per 1,000 people, and the UK figure includes antibody tests, which others do not do, and is based on when tests are sent out and not on results. So it is more hyperbole.

I hope today we can look at facts. There is now a backlog of 185,000 swabs and tests are being dispatched abroad. Can the Minister advise the House how many tests have been sent abroad, to which countries, the processing time and the void rates? If the Minister does not have that information at his fingertips today, can he please to write to me and put the answer in the Library?

Secondly, Coronavirus infection rates among middle-aged people have reached the same level now as rates among those in their 20s two weeks ago, and Professor Neil Ferguson has warned us that infections are back where they were in late February. So what discussions have the Government had with the Joint Biosecurity Centre and the CMO about raising the alert level from three to four?

Lord Bethell Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Lord Bethell) (Con)
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I am grateful for the noble Baroness’s questions. In terms of European rates, Britain is way ahead of many of its fellow countries in Europe. On Friday last week, we did 240,312 tests. It is a massive number and, I believe, the highest we have done on any day. This is a huge achievement and I pay testimony to those in the NHS and in test and trace who have contributed to that figure.

In terms of tests being sent abroad, our testing environment and economy are part of an international system. Reagents, swabs, consumables and machines are regularly exchanged between countries and I pay tribute to the enterprise and energy of the NHS and the test and trace scheme for using whatever schemes they can find in order to process the tests accurately, efficiently and promptly. I will be glad to send the noble Baroness details of the rates which she asked for.

In terms of the increase in prevalence among the middle-aged—yes, we are deeply concerned about this. As I have said at the Dispatch Box before, as night follows day, rates progress from the young to the middle-aged and, I fear, to the elderly. We are keeping a close eye on this progress.

Lord Scriven Portrait Lord Scriven (LD)
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My Lords, we know that the Minister is an avid listener of Radio 4’s “More or Less.” In today’s episode, Professor Alastair Grant of the University of East Anglia pointed out that 70% of coronavirus test results were completed within 48 hours at the start of August. Looking at official figures and analyses, he pointed out that by Monday, it was just 11.8%. The Minister may dispute the exact figures, but the trend clearly is down, which is worrying when we need an effective trace and isolate system to trace and isolate people as fast as possible. Can he tell the House and the country by what date all results of coronavirus testing will be turned around within a maximum of 24 hours?

Lord Bethell Portrait Lord Bethell (Con)
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My Lords, I am indeed an avid listener of “More or Less,” although I have not heard the episode to which the noble Lord referred. Can I just explain that not all tests need to be done within 24 hours? There are tests that are done for surveillance, to support clinical trials and to help our investigation into vaccines and therapeutics. Those kinds of tests have a much longer turnaround time, and that is entirely appropriate and will be built into the numbers to which “More or Less” referred. Some 89.6% of in-person test results were received the next day after tests were taken; those are the ones that need fast turnaround times and the ones that will be delivered promptly.

Lord Balfe Portrait Lord Balfe (Con)
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I want to talk about care homes and hospital in-patients, many of whom have been marooned for literally months. One of the problems is the testing regime. Could I ask the Minister, first, to give priority to relatives of people in care, so that they can be tested and go in and see their loved ones? Secondly, there is clearly a problem with a lot of the staff, because they are moved around a lot. Can the Minister undertake that his department will consult UNISON, the main trade union for those staff, and see what it can do to open things up so that people in care homes and hospitals are able to be visited again?

Lord Bethell Portrait Lord Bethell (Con)
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My Lords, I note my noble friend’s comments. However, I flatly deny that the social care system and social care homes have been in any way marooned. We have made a profound commitment, particularly in the testing environment, to supporting social care. One hundred thousand tests a day out of our capacity of between 200,000 and 250,000 are ring-fenced for social care and delivered to social care every day. Many of the challenges that we have for walk-in and drive-through testing centres are exactly because we are so committed to the ring-fenced testing for social care. That is a commitment that we are proud of and remain committed to.

I want to clarify with my noble friend that it is not an appropriate use of government test and trace capacity for relatives to use test and trace as a convenient method to find out whether they have the disease before they go to see relatives. That is not an appropriate use and not in the guidance.

As for UNISON, we are very much engaged with the union and are supporting staff in every way we can. However, I very much take on board my noble friend’s notes, and we will maintain that correspondence.

Lord Bishop of St Albans Portrait The Lord Bishop of St Albans
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My Lords, can the Minister clarify one or two issues? Does the rule of six mean that it will no longer be possible to have any public marking of Remembrance Sunday outdoors this year? Will he also clarify whether this effectively means that all public protests and demonstrations are now illegal?

Lord Bethell Portrait Lord Bethell (Con)
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I thank the right reverend Prelate for his question. I thank greatly those local authorities and charities that are putting in place Remembrance Day service arrangements that will abide by the new rule of six. Some of those guidelines are being written now, and I will be glad to share the guidelines with the right reverend Prelate when they are published. One thing I note is that virtual attendance at these services and the use of virtual remembrance books will be an aspect of Remembrance Day this year.

Lord Bilimoria Portrait Lord Bilimoria (CB) [V]
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My Lords, Professor William Hanage of the TH Chan School of Public Health at Harvard University has said of the lack of mass testing that:

“By the time you become aware of the problem it is likely to already be much larger. You are not going to detect outbreaks if you don’t look for them.”


He also said that you need

“very good diagnostic tests as well as tests that may be less sensitive but can be used more frequently.”

I am totally with the Government in their aim for mass testing, but would the Minister agree with Professor Alan McNally of the University of Birmingham that the £500 million already announced

“could have funded around 33 million standard swab PCR tests that could have been run in well-equipped university labs”?

Why is that not happening? On rapid saliva tests, the Abbott Laboratories’ BinaxNOW $5, 20-minute test has been FDA approved, with 10 million tests produced this month and 50 million to be produced next month. Why are we not getting on with it? We need to do this really urgently. Does the Minister agree?

Lord Bethell Portrait Lord Bethell (Con)
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I completely support the noble Lord’s commitment to mass testing. We are looking at ways in which to use less sensitive machines to provide the kind of prophylactic testing to which he alludes. I thank very much indeed all universities for their contribution to our testing programme.

Lord Triesman Portrait Lord Triesman (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, in the course of the pandemic, a significant number of contracts with private companies have been signed without tender and a number of these have been in areas such as PPE and test and trace. Most appear to have failed to deliver essential services and equipment—

Baroness Penn Portrait Baroness Penn (Con)
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I am afraid that we cannot hear the noble Lord. Maybe he would like to get closer to his microphone and try again.

Lord Triesman Portrait Lord Triesman (Lab) [V]
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I do not think I can get much closer to the microphone without eating it.

In the course of the pandemic, a significant number of contracts have been issued to private companies without tender. What is the value of the contracts that have been signed without competitive tender? Will the Minister place in the Library a list of all such contracts, their value, the companies involved and their ultimate beneficial owners?

Lord Bethell Portrait Lord Bethell (Con)
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That list is already published. I would be glad to send the noble Lord a link.

Lord Lansley Portrait Lord Lansley (Con) [V]
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My Lords, one of the big risks this autumn is from students going to university and, perhaps more particularly, returning from university in the run-up to Christmas. How has the guidance been prepared with universities to try to mitigate that risk? I know that Cambridge University is looking even at the possibility of testing all its students on a weekly basis.

Lord Bethell Portrait Lord Bethell (Con)
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My Lords, I thank colleagues at the DfE for their hard work in providing guidelines to universities and to vice-chancellors for implementing thoughtful arrangements for the return of students. It is very much the ambition of this Government that universities are brought back to life and that education and the impact of their work continues. None the less, it is not just the campus environment that concerns us—it is also the off-campus activities of students. For that, we look to universities to provide pastoral guidance to students to ensure that they are socially distanced and behave responsibly. We are keeping an eye on those behaviours and, should outbreaks or prevalence rise among students, we will have to review those guidelines.

Lord Duncan of Springbank Portrait The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)
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My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed.

13:18
Sitting suspended.

Arrangement of Business

Wednesday 16th September 2020

(3 years, 6 months ago)

Lords Chamber
Read Full debate Read Hansard Text
Announcement
13:30
Lord Duncan of Springbank Portrait The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)
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My Lords, hybrid proceedings will now resume. Some Members are here in the Chamber, respecting social distancing, others are participating remotely, but all Members will be treated equally. If the capacity of the Chamber is exceeded, I will immediately adjourn the House.

I will call Members to speak in the order listed in the annexe to today’s list. Members are not permitted to intervene spontaneously; the Chair calls each speaker. Interventions during speeches or before the noble Lord sits down are not permitted. During the debate on each group I invite Members, including Members in the Chamber, to email the clerk if they wish to speak after the Minister. I will call Members to speak in order of request and will call the Minister to reply each time.

The groupings are binding and it will not be possible to degroup an amendment for separate debate. A Member intending to press an amendment already debated to a Division should have given notice in the debate. Leave should be given to withdraw amendments. When putting the question, I will collect voices in the Chamber only. If a Member taking part remotely intends to trigger a Division, they should make this clear when speaking on the group.

Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill

Committee (4th Day)
13:31
Relevant document: 11th Report from the Constitution Committee
Amendment 56
Moved by
56: After Clause 4, insert the following new Clause—
“Children in care and children entitled to care leaving support: entitlement to remain
(1) Any child who has the right of free movement removed by the provisions contained in Part 1 of this Act, and who is in the care of a local authority or entitled to care leaving support, is deemed to have and be granted indefinite leave to remain within the United Kingdom under the EU Settlement Scheme (“the Scheme”). (2) The Secretary of State must, for the purposes of subsection (1), issue guidance to local authorities in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland setting out their duty to identify the children of EEA and Swiss nationals in their care or entitled to care leaving support.(3) Before issuing guidance under this section the Secretary of State must consult—(a) the relevant Scottish Minister;(b) the relevant Welsh Minister; and(c) the relevant Northern Ireland Minister.(4) The Secretary of State must make arrangements to ensure that personal data relating to nationality processed by local authorities for purposes of identification under subsection (1) is used solely for this purpose and no other immigration control purpose.(5) Any child subject to subsection (1) who is identified and granted indefinite leave to remain status after the deadline for applications under the Scheme will be deemed to have had such status and all rights associated with that status from the time of the Scheme deadline.(6) This section comes into force on the day on which this Act is passed and remains in effect for 5 years from the day of the deadline of the Scheme.(7) For the purposes of this section, children “in the care of a local authority” are defined as children receiving care under any of the following provisions—(a) section 20 of the Children Act 1989 (provision of accommodation for children: general);(b) section 31 of the Children Act 1989 (care and supervision);(c) section 75 of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 (general duty of local authority to secure sufficient accommodation for looked after children);(d) section 25 of the Children (Scotland) Act 1995 (provision of accommodation for children);(e) Article 25 of the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 (interpretation); and(f) Article 50 of the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 (care orders and supervision orders).(8) For the purposes of this section, children “entitled to care leaving support” means a child receiving support under any of the following provisions—(a) paragraph 19B of Schedule 2 to the Children Act 1989 (preparation for ceasing to be looked after);(b) section 23A(2) of the Children Act 1989 (the responsible authority and relevant children);(c) section 23C(1) of the Children Act 1989 (continuing functions in respect of former relevant children);(d) section 104 of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 (young people entitled to support under sections 105 to 115);(e) sections 29 and 30 of the Children (Scotland) Act 1995 (advice and assistance for young persons formerly looked after by local authorities); and(f) Article 35(2) of the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 (persons qualifying for advice and assistance).”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause aims to ensure that the children of EEA and Swiss nationals who are in care, and those who are entitled to care leaving support, are granted automatic Indefinite Leave to Remain under the EU Settlement Scheme to ensure they do not become undocumented.
Lord Dubs Portrait Lord Dubs (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, Amendment 56 has cross-party support in this Committee and in the House of Commons, where it was debated some time ago. Its purpose is to fast-track children in care and care leavers through the EU settlement scheme and grant them settled status. I am grateful to the Children’s Society and other NGOs for their help in preparing for this debate. It is my contention that very little decisive action has been taken to ensure that none of these children becomes undocumented as the scheme draws to a close in June next year. By the Government’s own estimates, 5,000 looked-after children and 4,000 care leavers need to regularise their immigration status because the UK is leaving the EU. The children in this group face three distinct problems: their identification, the problems they may have in applying, and whether they have settled or pre-settled status. I will deal with each of these in turn.

An analysis by the Children’s Society found that, in January this year, 153 out of 211 local authorities across the UK had identified just 3,612 EU, EEA or Swiss looked-after children and care leavers. Even with a margin of error factored into these statistics, that is well off the mark of the estimated total of 9,000. The Government have stated that it is the duty of local authorities to gather information and apply to the scheme on behalf of children in care and to assist care leavers in applying. I am well aware of the enormous pressure on local authorities, particularly on social workers, and I shall argue later that this amendment, if accepted, will actually lessen the burden on social workers rather than increase them.

Evidence given through research by Coram shows mixed practice among local authorities, with fears that some are not totally aware of their duties as set out in the guidance and are making no attempt to identify children in their care who need to regularise their status. Even before we come to the question of rates of applications for status received, there is the issue of oversight. What more are the Government going to do to ensure that children are being identified as needing to regularise their status before the EU settlement scheme draws to a close in 10 months’ time?

Turning to the problems of applying, of the 3,612 children in care and care leavers identified by local authorities in the Children’s Society’s analysis, only 11% have received either pre-settled or settled status. Evidence from the Greater Manchester Immigration Aid Unit shows that this group is having difficulties acquiring nationality documents and evidencing their length of residence in the UK in order to apply for settled status. Social workers, who are hard pressed enough, are often having to spend their time chasing various European embassies to acquire the appropriate paperwork. Everyone should agree that this is not the best use of their time, particularly in the present circumstances.

If the amendment is accepted, social workers could apply straight to the Home Office, without having to pursue the case through various European embassies. That would speed up the process and lessen the total burden on social workers. The children I am talking about have led complex lives. They often require expert legal and immigration advice to understand their options, including their eligibility for British citizenship. The Government should be streamlining this process for children in their care, not making it more difficult. Would the Minister consider lowering the evidential burden to ensure that these children receive settled status?

The third hurdle faced by some of these children is that, if they receive pre-settled, rather than settled, status, they will be in a vulnerable position. Children in care should not be given a temporary immigration status that expires. In five years’ time, when a young person with pre-settled status needs to reapply for settled status, it may well be that their social worker has changed, that they are no longer in care, or that grant-funded projects to support application have ended. The child surely has a right to apply for status under the EU settlement scheme either independently or in line with their parents’ status. For obvious reasons, it may be difficult for children in care to claim status linked to their parents’ situation. This right should be extended for children in care, so that they can apply in line with their corporate parents—the local authority—and receive permanent immigration status. What safe- guards are the Government putting in place to ensure that children in care and care leavers do not face a cliff edge when their pre-settled status expires and they reapply for settled status?

I am aware that the Home Office has sought to alleviate fears by stating that these children will be able to apply past the EUSS deadline of June 2021. What this means in reality is that children not identified and assisted through the EU settlement scheme would still be undocumented and in a difficult position. As is true of all undocumented children in the UK, this group will run into issues in adulthood when trying to rent a property, applying for a university grant or they are required to pay for NHS treatment while their immigration status is being regularised. Care leavers will still have to deal with a mountain of difficulties by themselves in order to secure the status they are owed. It can never, ever be in a child’s best interests to be undocumented. The Government have been warned that failure to act will result in this for children in the care of authorities across the UK.

To conclude, it is important to see that the amendment would place a duty on local authorities to identify children in their care who need to regularise their status. Within the guidelines issued to local authorities and Home Office workers, it would lower the evidential burden needed for children to apply and propose a fast track through the EU settlement scheme. It would end the concept of pre-settled status and ensure that all children had settled status only. I beg to move.

Earl of Dundee Portrait The Earl of Dundee (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I support Amendment 56 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Dubs. As he just explained, the proposed new clause would ensure that the children of EEA citizens and Swiss nationals who are already in care, along with those entitled to care, are able to stay in the United Kingdom under the EU settlement scheme. Where otherwise would these children go? Therefore, in guaranteeing their protection, this amendment is both logical and necessary. I am sure that the Minister will agree.

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard Portrait Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB) [V]
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Like the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, my name is on this amendment and, like him, I can be very brief in speaking to it, because the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, gave a masterly explanation of it.

We are dealing here with a small problem. The amendment would ensure that children in care do not fall into a crack, with their status undetermined and undocumented, now or in the future. The numbers involved are not huge; as the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, explained, they are probably in the thousands. Nobody would accuse the Government of deliberately creating this crack into which these young people might fall. It is accidental that this has emerged. I would not want to suggest that the Government have been remiss in letting it arise, provided, of course, that they feel able to do the decent thing and accept the overwhelming case that the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, made and either accept his amendment or produce a similar one that does the trick. It is the decent thing to do and I am convinced that the Government will want to do that to prevent the children falling into the crack that has accidentally been created.

I have one other point, and it is one I fear I may be becoming tedious on—perhaps I am always tedious. It is about Lesbos and the Moria camp. Yesterday in Berlin, the German ruling CDU, CSU, SPD coalition announced its agreement that Germany would take 2,750 homeless refugees from Lesbos, including 150 unaccompanied children and, in addition, children with serious illnesses and their immediate families. I asked what we will do about the disaster on Lesbos twice in Committee and the Minister did not feel able to pick up my remarks on either occasion, so this time I shall ask her four simple, straightforward questions. I hope she will be able to answer them.

First, does she agree that there would be reputational benefit for this country, at a time when we need friends, in doing what the Germans are doing? Secondly, does she agree that there is a strong humanitarian case for our doing so? Thirdly, does she agree that it is an emergency case, given that more than 14,000 people, including more than 400 unaccompanied children, are sleeping rough around the ruins of the burnt-out camp? Fourthly, will she please tell us, at the end of the discussion on this amendment, what the Government are going to do about it?

13:45
Lord Bruce of Bennachie Portrait Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD) [V]
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My Lords, I support Amendment 56. I associate myself with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, in connection with the situation in Lesbos, and I hope the Minister will be able answer his questions. I commend the proposers of the amendment, in particular the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, in his consistent championing of vulnerable child refugees and vulnerable children in general.

We all know that children in care are especially disadvantaged, almost by definition, and there are too many tragic and at times disgraceful stories of the suffering of such children. The commitment to expand foster care is testimony to the fact that being looked after by the state is a last resort. The state is not usually the best parent a child can have, but for some it is the only one. That puts extra responsibility on us when rules change dramatically, as they are because of Brexit, to go the extra mile to ensure that these children are not further disadvantaged as they embark on adult life. It is and should be the responsibility of the state as parent to ensure that children without parents and in the care of the state get the support they need to secure their status. This amendment sets out to secure this.

The Children’s Society’s excellent briefing, to which the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, referred, highlights that more than 3 million people have completed applications, including more than 400,000 children. However, the society points out that the children’s rate is low compared with that for adults. I will not repeat its statistics, but they clearly point to the likelihood that thousands of children could be left undocumented and potentially stateless without the proactive measures proposed in the amendment. Although I say, “thousands of children”, and in the grand scheme of things the numbers are not that large, these are real people with real needs.

This could further blight the lives of young people who will be struggling to build their lives in a post-Covid, post-Brexit environment. The last thing they will need is to be confronted, at a critical point in their lives when seeking employment or other roles, with a challenge to their status because they did not know and were not properly informed of the need to secure settled status or helped to go about it. Because, on the face of it, this is not an urgent matter, overstretched local authorities might postpone support as a priority, but surely it is better to address it while the issue is fresh rather than wait until time has elapsed, people have forgotten, the circumstances have been overlooked and the possibility of people finding themselves on the wrong side of their status is therefore enhanced at a later stage. None of us wants to see tragic headlines about children facing either deportation or lack of identity and status.

I urge the Government to accept the amendment and show that they are on the side of young people. I accept that it is not their intention to create these problems, but, given the opportunity of this amendment, I hope they will recognise that these young people do not need additional barriers to their progress in life and that this amendment is to be commended.

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Portrait Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)
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My Lords, I strongly support the amendment. The Government should be doing all they can to ensure that the estimated nearly 10,000 looked-after children and care leavers are registered. It would seem that the Children’s Society has done more to identify these children than the Government have. It is not sufficient to say that they will allow late applications, welcome as that is, because that means these children will, as has already been said, be undocumented and could then run into all sorts of problems under the hostile/compliant environments. Will the Minister undertake to issue a formal policy statement and guidance that confirms formally what has been said about late claims? Stakeholder groups such as the Children’s Society and the3million are concerned that it is not there in a formal way.

It is not enough to say that it is the responsibility of local authorities and leave it at that, with only non-statutory guidance. According to the Children’s Society and the3million, many local authorities seem unaware of this, as my noble friend Lord Dubs said. To reinforce his questions, will the Minister say exactly what the Government are doing to ensure that local authorities are aware of their responsibilities; to support local authorities to fulfil those responsibilities, because we know the pressure they are under; and to ensure that local authorities are doing all they can to identify and support children for whom they have a responsibility? The evidence suggests that many of these hard-pressed local authorities are not doing what is required.

The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said that to accept this amendment would be to do the decent thing. Indeed, it would, and I do not think it is tedious at all for him to remind noble Lords about what is happening in Lesbos. It is decent that he has done that, and I hope the Minister will answer his questions in a decent way.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Portrait Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]
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My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow all the noble Lords who have spoken on this amendment thus far. I particularly commend the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, as others have, for his tireless work in this area.

Most of the questions have been asked and most of the issues have been canvassed, so I will be brief. I think everybody accepts that these are acutely vulnerable children. They do not have a parent who is able to look out for them; the state is their guardian, and that creates huge humanitarian responsibilities for the state that we expect our Government to live up to.

I also echo the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr: where is the Statement and the action from the Government on the situation in Lesbos? We have seen significant action from European Governments, particularly the German and French Governments, so I join others in saying that I very much hope that we will hear an answer from the Minister on what the Government are going to do to help those intensely vulnerable people.

Baroness Hamwee Portrait Baroness Hamwee (LD) [V]
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My Lords, I have added my name to this amendment. The Government have given us an example of the reasonable grounds there may be for submitting a late application to the EU settled status scheme, but in this case the applicant is a child whose parent or guardian failed to apply on their behalf.

This amendment is about children of a corporate parent: the state. As we have heard, the Home Office estimates that there are 5,000 looked-after children and 4,000 care leavers who would need to apply. Not only are these children considered vulnerable—a word we are applying quite widely to very different situations—but in this context they have rights which it is not possible, or certainly not easy in practical terms, for them to exercise. Their parent, the state, is in a rather different position from a flesh-and-blood mother or father.

This is a very nifty amendment. It means that social workers would not have to chase after paperwork; they are very overloaded, as we have heard. It does not leave children in the precarious position of having to apply late, or of being undocumented, when they would be exposed to ineligibility for NHS treatment that is not charged for, and there would be no cliff edge at the end of pre-settled status. I think I am right in saying that the five-year period in subsection (6) of the proposed new clause would mean that it would apply to babies who are currently, or by next June, under five years old.

As the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said, this is not too hard to sort out—at least, it does not seem so to me. I hope the Minister will agree. Like others, I think that the noble Lord’s questions are relevant to today, if not relevant precisely to this amendment. They are very important. I look forward to supporting this amendment.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
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My Lords, I fully support Amendment 56, moved by my noble friend Lord Dubs, which would add a new clause to the Bill. This clause would provide for children who are EEA and Swiss nationals and in care, along with those entitled to care-leaving support, to be granted automatic indefinite leave to remain under the EU settlement scheme.

This amendment has wide cross-party support. The idea behind it had support in the other House, and it has that today. Every speaker so far, from different sides of the House, has spoken in support of the amendment. I am sure the Minister has taken that on board and will want to give us a positive response.

As my noble friend Lord Dubs said, there are vast numbers of these children and the amendment would ensure that none of them become undocumented. Identification is a serious problem, as my noble friend outlined. The different practices adopted by different local authorities is a real problem in itself.

The amendment would speed up the process and enable social workers, who do a fantastic job—we all know that they are under extreme pressure—to apply directly to the Home Office without having to deal with consulates and embassies and all the bureaucracy you have in dealing with another country when trying to get the right documents identified. You would avoid all that work, paperwork and bureaucracy, and go straight to the Home Office.

My noble friend Lord Dubs also asked the Minister about the safeguards in place for children who have pre-settled status, and that question deserves a careful response. As the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, said, this is a sensible amendment that really deserves a positive response from the Government.

I agree with all the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, on this amendment. It is the decent thing to do for these children. We are talking about a relatively small number of children, but it would ensure that nobody falls into the trap of becoming undocumented. As the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Bennachie, said, children in care face all sorts of additional challenges; they are not with their parents and the local authority in effect is looking after them. All this amendment seeks to do is to ensure that they do not have further issues to deal with; a young person leaving care, or in many years’ time, may have the problem of being undocumented and unable to establish their identity properly. This is a very small measure which the Government should give way on.

Like my noble friend Lady Lister of Burtersett, I commend the work of the Children’s Society to identify and raise the plights of these children. The society has campaigned to ensure that they have protection and that their problems are not added to by becoming undocumented. As I say, it is the decent thing to do. Equally, I am sure that we will get a response from the Minister on the amendment, and on the issue in Lesbos.

I should also draw the attention of the House to the fact that I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association. Local authorities do a fantastic job. Certain authorities, particularly Kent, are under particular pressure regarding children’s issues, but they generally do a fantastic job. This is one small measure which the Government could accept to help authorities and make it a bit easier for them in the work that they do. I hope that the Minister can give a positive response to us today, and maybe we can come back to this on Report.

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
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My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, for moving his Amendment 56, which calls for children in care and care leavers who have their right of free movement removed by the Bill to be granted indefinite leave to remain.

May I say at the outset that I absolutely agree with the noble Lords, Lord Dubs and Lord Kennedy, and others that no child should be undocumented, and with the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, that we should not create any cracks? So that I do not disappoint the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, yet again, I will immediately address the issues that he raised.

First, he asked if we should do as the Germans do. I think we should do as we do. As far as reputational risk is concerned, I do not think we should help these children because it has an influence on our reputation; I think we should help children because it is the right thing to do, and in fact this country has a very long history of helping children who need our support.

The noble Lord asked me if I agree that it is an emergency. Absolutely, I agree that it is an emergency. Of course, I also agree that it is a humanitarian issue. One could not fail to be moved by the plight that these children and their families sometimes go through.

The noble Lord then asked me the million-dollar question: what the Government are doing about it. On 22 April, the UK and Greece signed a joint historic migration plan that reaffirms our commitment to closer co-operation with Greece on a range of migration issues. On the direct help for some of those people on the Greek islands, we have given £500,000 for urgent humanitarian help for the most vulnerable.

14:00
The noble Lord also asked me about Dublin family reunion cases for unaccompanied children affected by the fire. We remain fully committed to ensuring that eligible individuals seeking asylum in Europe, including unaccompanied children with family members in the UK, can continue to be transferred under the Dublin regulation until the end of the transition period. It might be helpful for the House to know that throughout the pandemic, the UK has continued to remain open to receiving Dublin transfers. I mentioned on Monday that three group flights from Greece have taken place in recent months—on 11 May, 28 July and 6 August. We continue to make arrangements with Greek officials to facilitate transfers of people we have accepted under the regulation, although I must make it clear that all arrangements to complete a transfer are the responsibility of the sending state.
The noble Lord asked whether the UK will accept resettlement of migrants in Greece to the UK. As he probably knows, we do not participate in the relocation within Europe scheme but we have refugee resettlement schemes that, crucially, provide safe and legal routes direct from refugee host countries for more than 25,000 vulnerable refugees in the greatest need of protection. We work closely with the UNHCR, which is the internationally recognised and mandated agency for dealing with refugees.
Having dealt with the questions of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, which I could not go another Committee day without answering, I think I should also clarify our slight difference of views on Monday. Having looked at Hansard, I have realised what the issue was: I was talking about unaccompanied asylum-seeking children; he was talking about asylum seekers more generally. I hope that that is a clarification.
I want to acknowledge that this amendment is very well intentioned because it concerns the important issue of how, as we end free movement, we ensure that we protect the rights of a key vulnerable group—children in care and care leavers. The amendment does not achieve this but places that vulnerable group at greater risk of ending up without secure evidence, which is so important, of UK immigration status. We know from Windrush that a declaratory system, under which immigration is conferred automatically without providing secure evidence, does not work. The new clause would risk repeating that experience for this vulnerable group of children and young people, something the Government cannot support. What they want to do is focus their efforts—which noble Lords have talked about this afternoon—and resources on working closely with local authorities and other partners to ensure that these children and young people, like any other vulnerable group, get UK immigration status under the EU settlement scheme and the secure evidence they will need to prove their rights and entitlements for decades to come.
Since the full launch in March last year, we have had agreements and plans in place with local authorities to ensure this. Local authorities and, in Northern Ireland, health and social care trusts, are responsible for making an application under the scheme on behalf of an eligible looked-after child for whom they have parental responsibility by way of a court order. Surely, that order provides a date. Their responsibilities in other cases to signpost the scheme and support applications have also been agreed. These concern children for whom there is no court order but where the local authority has a clear interest in supporting the best interests of the child—for example, children accommodated by the local authority, children in need and care leavers.
I understand totally the concerns expressed by noble Lords about looked-after children and care leavers, and we must absolutely ensure that their corporate parents secure the best possible outcomes for them. We have therefore provided a range of support services such as the Home Office-run settlement resolution centre, open seven days a week, to ensure that local authorities and health and social care trusts can access help and advice when they need it. We have engaged extensively with relevant stakeholders such as the Department for Education, the Local Government Association, the Ministry of Justice, the Association of Directors of Children’s Services and equivalents in the devolved Administrations, just to understand and address the needs of looked-after children and care leavers and to ensure they are supported.
I should also say that guidance has been issued to local authorities regarding their role and responsibilities for making or supporting applications under the EU settlement scheme for looked-after children and care leavers. The Home Office is also holding teleconferences specifically for local authority staff responsible for making relevant applications in order to support them and provide a direct point of contact for them within the Home Office. As an illustration—and returning to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Dubs—the EUSS safeguarding user group network of voluntary organisations has helped more than 200,000 at-risk and vulnerable people to apply to the scheme.
In addition, the Home Office has provided £9 million of grant funding to 57 voluntary organisations across the UK to support vulnerable citizens in applying to the scheme. I have alluded to several organisations specialising in that support for vulnerable children and young people. We have now committed a further £8 million for this work, allowing charities and local authorities to bid for grant funding to provide support to vulnerable people and ensure that nobody is left behind.
Finally, the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked about a formal policy statement on late claims. Early next year, we will issue guidance—not on an exhaustive list because that would be restrictive in its own right—on the areas where a late claim might be valid. She talked about children who are in local authority care. There could be women in coercive or controlling relationships—absolutely—and they could be a cohort. The guidance will be issued early next year but for now, we want people to apply to the scheme.
I hope that, with those explanations, the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, will be happy to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Bates Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) (Con)
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We have received a number of requests to speak after the Minister: from the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, the noble Baronesses, Lady Hamwee and Lady Lister, and the noble Lords, Lord Paddick and Lord Kennedy. I will call each Member in turn and then invite the Minister to respond.

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard Portrait Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB) [V]
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I am grateful to the Minister for responding to my questions. I guess that I am rightly rebuked for suggesting that a relevant factor in considering what we should do about the victims of Lesbos is our reputation around the world. I suppose it is a case of déformation professionnelle. I used to be a diplomat and I am therefore keen on our trying to recover some of our lost reputation. Perhaps the Government—less the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen—are less keen today. Perhaps they do not recognise the extent of the reputational damage. Anyway, I agree that that is not strictly relevant.

The Minister agreed that there is an emergency case for helping and an overwhelming humanitarian case for helping. But—I hope the Minister will forgive my saying so—she seems to be saying that we propose to do nothing at all about it. Everything that she cited—the money in April and the flights in July and August—took place before the fire on the island of Lesbos and before these 14,500 people, who are now sleeping rough, were displaced. If she accepts that there is a new urgent humanitarian case then it would be very good if the Government could do something about it.

I note that a number of people spoke on the same lines as me about this problem, so I hope the Minister will take back to Whitehall the idea that there seems to be a feeling in this House that we ought to be doing something to help the victims of Moria.

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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My Lords, the noble Lord can probably tell that I have never been a diplomat. However, I take his point in absolutely good faith. It is probably both reputational and our duty to help those in need around the world.

I spoke to the noble Lord about the joint historic migration plan, which confirms our closer co-operation with Greece. I was speaking to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, before we even began this Committee stage, and I think that we all need to get together and work out solutions for upstream work and to help the desperate people in the regions who will never even get to Europe. We need to tackle some of the drivers of the terrible criminality that goes on, which has no intention of helping the most vulnerable people at all.

Baroness Hamwee Portrait Baroness Hamwee (LD) [V]
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I was not sure whether the Minister was talking about money that had been paid to Greece to help, or money that was going to be paid. Clearly, money is needed—I am in no position to think how much that might be—but it is not just about money.

I commend to noble Lords the BBC Radio 4 programme “More or Less” this morning, which objectively dealt with where the UK comes in comparison with other nations in taking refugees and assisting asylum seekers. The tables I have in front of me show that, combining both resettled refugees and asylum seekers, we take less than a quarter of the number taken by Greece and less than 10% of the number taken by Germany. This is not a competition, except a competition to do better. I wanted to put that on the record.

I also want to respond to the points the Minister has just made. The best upstream action is to provide safe and legal routes. She mentioned that in her first response, and I commend her for that. That is where the focus needs to be.

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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My Lords, I do not disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee: we need to provide safe and legal routes, and through our resettlement schemes we do provide them. We are all in danger of agreeing violently, because we want to help the most vulnerable and we want places like Greece, that need our support, to get it.

The noble Baroness asked whether the money had been paid or would be paid. It has been paid. She will of course remember that, back in the day, we put quite a phenomenal amount of money into helping people in the region who will never get out and who will never make the journey over to Europe.

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Portrait Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)
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My Lords, the Minister referred to the resettlement scheme, but we heard the other day that that is suspended, and it is not at all clear when it will start again. I have a simple question. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said that as it is accepted that there is an urgent humanitarian case, it would be good if the Government did something about it. I still do not understand why we are not doing something about it. Why are we not acting like, say, Germany?

14:15
Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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My Lords, I do not think that we, as a country, have been backward in coming forward to other countries that need our help. We are working closely with Greece. As I said, we have given it money to deal with some of the most vulnerable people on its islands, and we will continue to do that.

Lord Paddick Portrait Lord Paddick (LD)
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My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister, but what I heard in the first question from the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, was about taking refugees from the camp in Lesbos. She talked exclusively about unaccompanied children. Germany had initially agreed to take 400 unaccompanied children, but has now changed that decision and will take in 1,553 refugees from Lesbos, making up the difference in the numbers with adults. Can the Minister clarify that the Government’s position on not taking adult refugees from anywhere in Europe has not changed despite the disaster in Lesbos?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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What I said was that we did not participate in the EU relocation scheme; I am not sure whether we ever have. I am saying that we will absolutely meet our obligations under Dublin, and if a request comes from the UNHCR for us to take displaced people from Greece who are eligible to come under Dublin, we will of course consider that.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the Minister will correct me if I am wrong, but I understand her position to be that the amendment we are discussing is not necessary and could make the situation worse. Apparently the Home Office supports the aims of the amendment but it is not going to act, because there are measures already in place to deal with this question, and it does not want any children to end up undocumented. Maybe I am wrong, but I am sure that if I am, the Minister will correct me. If I am correct, is she giving a cast-iron assurance that the Home Office will not let any of those children become undocumented, and that in the period ahead it will not take decisions that undermine what she has said to us today?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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What I am saying is that the Home Office, in conjunction with other departments, will ensure that we can identify every child, or indeed adult, in that vulnerable category and that they are assisted where possible. As I said the other day, the EU settlement scheme will not close and reasonable grounds for late applications will not end, so if any people—either adults or children—are identified in future as coming into the category that noble Lords have spoken about, they will be documented.

Lord Bates Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) (Con)
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I now call the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, to respond to the debate on his amendment.

Lord Dubs Portrait Lord Dubs (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, so many things have been raised in the debate that I shall be hard put to it to spend only a short time dealing with them. First, I am still concerned, because the Minister said that although she agreed with the sentiment, she thought Amendment 56 was unnecessary and might be counter- productive. I am not convinced that, next June, we will not see a large number of children who, as the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said, have fallen through the crack and are undocumented, and nothing much will be done for them. That is the concern. Short of repeating the point in this debate, we will be forced to keep asking Parliamentary Questions to find out whether all those children have been identified and had their status granted.

The Minister did not talk about the difference between pre-settled and settled status, but the thrust of the debate was that we must give people settled status otherwise they are still left in limbo and a state of uncertainty.

I would like to feel that the Home Office will redouble its efforts to make sure that the amendment is unnecessary, but I am bound to say that I am not that hopeful. I fear that we will have to go on pressing the Government as to where we have got. I find that a bit disappointing, despite the fact that the Minister’s sentiments were very much in support of the aim of the amendment.

Turning now to some of the specific comments, I am grateful to all noble Lords who contributed to the debate. I particularly welcome the comments on Moria made by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. I was going to raise this but did not know whether I should at this point. On the other hand, by the time we get to Report, when this issue will come up, another two or three weeks will have gone by. It is such an urgent matter than I can only press the Minister that we can do a bit more than we are doing. We cannot do everything. All we should do is act in concert with other EU countries, even if we are not part of the scheme, and say, “Look, we’re going to play our part in helping.”

We have done something already, of course—before the fire in Moria—but the Greek Government appealed for help from all countries. We are friendly with the Greek Government; we have got an agreement with them. The least we can do is say that we will take some more children, especially the ones who can reunite with their family here.

I was concerned by the Minister’s comment that Dublin III will be operational until the end of December. Of course it will be, but we are worried about what will happen after then. We are concerned that there will be no safeguards unless the Government act on the amendment that we discussed the other day, which is to say that we will negotiate to continue the arrangement long after we have left the EU. I fear that that is not the Government’s position; I would like to feel that it were. There is a real gap here in what the Government are doing, and I am disappointed. We will come to the end of December and there will be children with relatives and family here who will no longer have the right to come here.

Having said that, I am grateful to the Minister and the other noble Lords who contributed to the debate on this amendment. We will have to watch and see. If the Government are as good as the Minister’s word—that is a big statement—maybe it will all get sorted by June next year. I would like to think so, but at the moment I am still doubtful.

I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 56 withdrawn.
Amendments 57 to 61 not moved.
Lord Bates Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) (Con)
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We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 62. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this or any other amendment in the group to a Division should make that clear during the debate.

Amendment 62

Moved by
62: After Clause 4, insert the following new Clause—
“Refugee family reunion
The Secretary of State must make rules under section 3(2) of the Immigration Act 1971 to allow any EEA or Swiss citizen who has exercised a right brought to an end by section 1 and Schedule 1 and who has been recognised as a refugee in the United Kingdom to sponsor their—(a) children under the age of 25 who were either under the age of 18, or unmarried, at the time the person granted asylum left the country of their habitual residence in order to seek asylum;(b) parents; or(c) siblings under the age of 25 who were either under the age of 18, or unmarried, at the time the person granted asylum left the country of their habitual residence in order to seek asylum;to join them in the United Kingdom.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause is intended to probe the need to expand family reunion rules.
Baroness Hamwee Portrait Baroness Hamwee (LD) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, Amendment 62 is grouped with Amendments 64 and 79, which I very much support.

On a previous day, we debated Amendment 48, a “Dubs amendment”—the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, is becoming a noun; I hope that he will forgive me for using his name in this way—which was also about refugee family reunion, with a focus on unaccompanied asylum-seeking children. My Amendment 62 is different. The starting point is that someone of any age, including a child, who has refugee status in the UK could sponsor certain family members to join him or her. As with other amendments that we have debated, the issue is very much wider than EEA and Swiss citizens, but I cannot let the Bill go by without making points about this situation, too.

I believe that this is a very modest ask to test the water, as I have done previously and hope to do again if we ever get back to Private Members’ Bills, because I have one on this subject in the pipeline. The amendment would allow a refugee to sponsor his or her

“children under the age of 25 who were either under the age of 18, or unmarried, at the time”

the sponsor left the country. The “unmarried” point is important. One hears alarming stories about the treatment of young women in refugee camps. They have an even more precarious existence than others, as well as precarious experiences on their journey. The amendment would also allow the sponsorship of parents or siblings who came in the categories I have just mentioned.

It is often suggested that families in difficult parts of the world send a son off to try to reach the UK with a view to the family seamlessly following for economic reasons. It is true that children in this situation do sometimes leave with a parent’s agreement, but all too often it is about seeking asylum which is a necessity. This provision would not kick in unless the sponsor was recognised as a refugee. I hope that that reassures noble Lords.

I dare say that someone might argue that such a provision would endanger that sponsor, who might be a child, because of the danger of getting to the UK. As always, the answer is to create safe and legal routes, as this amendment would do for those who are sponsored. It would also help with the recovery and integration of refugees in this country. I hope that it is not necessary to explain to the Committee the importance of families being together. They belong together.

In January of this year, other noble Lords may have received, as I did, emails from a primary school where children had read a book about a boy refugee trying to be reunited with his family. This was as the Government were repealing Section 17 of the 2018 EU withdrawal Act. At the time, I quoted a child who said:

“I thought my country was better than this.”—[Official Report, 15/1/20; col. 755.]


Another child castigated us. He said:

“You’re all leaders. You’re all meant to lead by example, yet you’ve made us feel so ashamed that we are prevented from helping these children. What if you were in their position? You’d want to be brought to safety, wouldn’t you?”


Well, I know the answer to that.

Another child said:

“There’s no war in the UK and if children have family here, they should have the right to go to them. I think it must be very scary to be alone, not speaking the same language as people around you, in a big new country surrounded by new people. These children don’t know what is going to happen to them. Knowing they were able to go to a relation in this country would be a relief for them and we would know we’ve helped.”


Finally by way of example, I will quote a young refugee assisted by the Red Cross:

“I was so little when I left my home and my family. I left but my family unfortunately did not have the chance to leave with me. I wish they were here with me. We’re forced to leave. We leave as children and we still need our parents’ figures in our lives. I worry about my brothers because I know they will be in danger. I worry about my younger sister, who’s 14. I want to get her out of there. It is so important that we are all together again.”


As I said, there are three amendments in this group. The fact that noble Lords from around the House are showing concern for refugees in different situations— and this is not the whole of it—indicates how widely shared the view is that we as a country should be doing more.

I beg to move.

14:30
Earl of Dundee Portrait The Earl of Dundee (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I support Amendment 62—spoken to in a very moving way by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee—which seeks to expand family reunion rules. I also support Amendment 79, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, which ensures that family reunification should not be restricted by any lack of income or assets affecting relevant parties.

Amendment 64, in my name, allows visas to be issued on humanitarian grounds. Three conditions are stipulated: the person needs medical treatment, is an orphaned child, or is a child who is a dependant of a person in the United Kingdom. These conditions are covered in Section 3. However, Section 4 enables the Secretary of State to add to them if required.

As outlined, therefore, Amendment 64 does not address family reunion. Instead, it deals with people who need to come to the United Kingdom for medical attention, orphaned children, and those who do not qualify for family reunion but who are dependent upon another person, or people, in the United Kingdom. Post Brexit, this amendment may thus prove useful for the continuity of the United Kingdom’s excellent record of sustained high standards of humanitarian good practice, such as receiving here for emergency surgery the Nobel Prize laureate Malala Yousafzai, after she had been shot in the head by Islamist terrorists, and, during the recent lockdown—and for this my noble friend the Minister and her government colleagues deserve a great deal of credit—the relocation to the United Kingdom of dozens of unaccompanied minors from Moria refugee camp in Greece when it was recently destroyed by arson.

Secondly, the measures proposed may also help many to avoid become prey to human smugglers and traffickers. An absence of humanitarian visas, which the amendment seeks to redress, is also an advantage to human smugglers and traffickers. For these reasons, I hope that the Minister can accept Amendment 64.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Portrait Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I rise to support Amendment 62 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, which I was delighted to sign. I also wish to express my support for Amendment 64, which the noble Earl has so ably presented, and to speak to my own Amendment 79. The first two refer to people who need refuge; mine refers to a different group and I will get to that in a second.

As I was listening to the powerful presentations from the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble Earl, I was thinking back to January 2016 when I was at a memorial service for a 15 year-old Afghan boy. His name was Masud, and he died in the back of lorry trying to get to the UK to rejoin his brother. This relates to the discussion we were having before about the situation on Lesbos. We have to provide safe, legal, orderly routes for people to reach the UK, and to achieve the refuge they should be entitled to.

I note my position as the co-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Hong Kong and identify what may well be a rising issue. The Government have stepped forward and said that they want to help people who need to leave Hong Kong because of what is happening there with regard to human rights. I very much hope that we will see action on providing orderly routes for people to be able to do that, and for people all around the world.

I mostly want to speak on Amendment 79. As I said, this does not relate to refugees. This relates to a situation involving those generally known as Skype children, the numbers of whom are, of course, likely to be significantly enhanced. At the moment, for non-EU and EAA citizens who are the spousal partner of a British citizen, the British citizen has to have an income of £18,600 a year to bring them to the UK—more with children—and at the end of the transition period this Bill will extend that to many more people and many more children.

This is a more limited amendment than Amendment 23, which we debated last week, which addressed couples being able to stay together as well as children. While I prefer Amendment 23, I am hoping that the Conservative Government might be more prepared to consider amending the legislation specifically so that it is not tearing children out of their parents’ arms. It is, at the moment, not using the wisdom of Solomon but actually delivering the verdict of Solomon and forcing parents to let their children go to be separated from them for years. As we all know from the situation with Covid-19, yes, you may be able to keep in contact through a screen, but it is certainly not the same thing.

I note that in 2018 the Children’s Commissioner for England commissioned a report showing that up to 15,000 British children were already growing up in this situation. This is without adding in people affected by Brexit. Many children were reportedly suffering from significant stress and anxiety from the separation.

So have the Government made an estimate of the number of children likely to be affected annually by the minimum income requirement once the immigration Act, as it will be, comes into effect? The research by the Children’s Commissioner found that Britain had the least family-friendly reunification policies of 38 developed countries, largely because of that minimum income requirement. That is of course £18,600 a year, which was then 138% of the minimum wage. It will not be quite so bad now. The Children’s Commissioner, Anne Longfield, said at the time:

“There is a wealth of evidence which indicates that children are far more likely to thrive when they are raised by parents in a warm, stable and loving family environment.”


There is evidence, she said, that this affects

“their well-being and development. It is also likely to have an impact on their educational attainment and outcomes.”

As one of the authors of the report commissioned by the Children’s Commissioner pointed out, the great majority of children affected by this are British citizens. They are being forced to grow up effectively in single-parent families, when their parents want to be together. So I hope that the Government will reflect on the comparison with Solomon and think about accepting this amendment.

Lord Dubs Portrait Lord Dubs (Lab) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I wish to speak to Amendment 64 to which I have added my name, which has already been moved by the noble Earl, Lord Dundee. The concept here is a very simple one because, as I understand it, we are already doing it in part. The Vulnerable Persons Resettlement Scheme, for example, which takes some Syrian refugees from Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey, already seems to be giving effect to a proposal similar to that in this amendment. The question is: why can we not apply that to people in Europe? That is the purpose of this amendment. It seems to be a very simple point, and it would also take away some of the pressure.

At the moment, if we are taking children from an EU country, there is quite a complicated bureaucratic procedure; they have to apply and then they have to be registered before we accept them. Would it not be easier if we had a humanitarian visa, so that it could be granted to children in that category and they could come straight here without any bureaucratic toing and froing? The concept is a simple one.

I appreciate that the idea of a humanitarian visa, generally, has been floated for a long time. I do not know whether it has the support of the UNHCR—I believe it does—but of course the scheme I referred to, the Vulnerable Persons Resettlement Scheme from that region, is based on the identification by UNHCR of individuals who are vulnerable, so the same arrangement could apply for the granting of a humanitarian visa. It seems to be a fairly straightforward proposal and one that would add to the other measures to provide a legal and safe way for people in desperate need to come to this country.

Lord Bruce of Bennachie Portrait Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I commend those noble Lords who have followed this Bill in detail and identified so many anomalies and injustices that may arise with the ending of free movement. I have intervened to give them support and to identify amendments in which I have a particular interest.

My brief intervention here is in support of Amendment 64 which, like a number of others, highlights the hardship and injustice that may arise not by deliberate intent but because, when a freedom that has been available for so long is terminated, something that is currently not an issue becomes one.

In Scotland, we have leading centres of medical excellence. In my home region, in Aberdeen, we have the oldest teaching hospital in the English-speaking world, which has pioneered a number of innovations including the MRI scanner. Medical centres of renown exist in Dundee, Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Under the present rules, treatment can be provided to EEA nationals without recourse to a visa. It would surely be inhumane if, under the terms of this amendment, a visa were to be denied in future. Similarly, it is surely right on compassionate grounds if an orphaned child can best be placed in foster care in the UK—for example, where a sibling is already placed or some other particular circumstances apply. If the child is the dependant of someone living in the UK who has the right to remain, it is surely absolutely right that they can be united with them in the UK. This should be sufficient grounds for the automatic right to a visa.

We have seen cases in which UK citizens have availed themselves of medical treatment elsewhere in the EU, and previous contributions have discussed treatment being provided to people from elsewhere, so it is to be hoped that accepting this amendment would help to ensure that EU countries provide similar reciprocal arrangements.

So much will change next year, sadly, in my view, to the detriment of UK citizens in most cases, and also inflicting potential hardship on our fellow EU citizens whose access to the UK has not been restricted hitherto. This amendment is a simple example of how we can modify our visa arrangements post Brexit on compassionate and humanitarian grounds. I hope it will be accepted in that spirit.

Lord Rosser Portrait Lord Rosser (Lab)
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My Lords, in Committee in the Commons, the Government stated that they were

“committed to the principle of family reunion and supporting vulnerable children”

and that they

“recognise that families can become separated because of … conflict and persecution”,

including through

“the speed and manner in which people are often forced to flee their country.” —[Official Report, Commons, 30/6/20; col. 263.]

Eligibility for refugee family reunion is covered in the UK’s Immigration Rules, which provide that refugees in the UK can be joined, via family reunion, by their spouse or partner and their dependent children under the age of 18.

Amendment 62 increases the family members whom EEA and Swiss nationals, who have exercised a right ended by Clause 1 of this Bill and are refugees in the UK, are allowed to sponsor to join them. In reality, the existing UK policy leaves some of the most vulnerable children separated from their parents at a time when they need their families more than ever—an issue that Amendment 62 seeks to address.

Amendment 64, to which my noble friend Lord Dubs’s name is attached, seeks to remedy this by requiring the Secretary of State to make provision for a visa to enter or remain in the UK on humanitarian grounds. This would apply to an EEA or Swiss national—that is done to keep the amendment in scope of the Bill—who requires medical treatment in the UK that is not available where they are resident; who is an orphan child, and a foster family or other foster care is available to the child in the UK and leave to enter or remain in the UK would be in the child’s best interests; or who is a dependent child of someone who has been granted leave to enter or remain in the UK. In their reply, perhaps the Government could say what they estimate would be the number of people entering the UK each year under the terms of such a humanitarian visa, compared with the latest annual net migration figure, for example.

The third amendment in this group provides that a person should be granted leave to enter or remain in the UK if they are an EEA or Swiss national and either have a child with a British citizen or person who has leave to remain in the UK, or are a child of a British citizen or person who has leave to remain in the UK.

I conclude by saying only that if the Government are

“committed to the principle of family reunion and supporting vulnerable children”,—[Official Report, Commons, 30/6/20; col. 263.]

as they said in the Commons when this Bill was being discussed, surely they can accept one or more of the amendments in this group.

14:45
Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for her amendment and my noble friend Lord Dundee, the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle. I turn first to Amendment 62 from the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. I note that she has raised this amendment to probe the need to expand the UK’s refugee family reunion rules. I will address each part of the amendment in turn.

Paragraph (a) of the proposed new clause seeks to allow refugees to reunite with their dependent children under the age of 25, as long as they were under 18 or unmarried at the time their parents left their country. The refugee family reunion guidance is clear that where a family reunion application does not meet the requirements of the Immigration Rules, caseworkers must consider whether there are any exceptional circumstances or compassionate factors that may justify a grant of leave outside the Immigration Rules. To this end, particular reference is given in the guidance to the example of children over 18 who are not leading an independent life and would otherwise be left alone in a dangerous situation. I can confirm that this discretion is used to allow dependent adult children to reunite with their parents in the UK where appropriate.

Paragraph (b) of the proposed new clause relates to refugees sponsoring parents. The noble Baroness will know that the Government have been very clear on their established position on this issue, as we are very concerned that allowing children to sponsor their parents would lead to more children being encouraged—even forced—to leave their families and risk dangerous journeys to the UK. However, discretion can be applied where a caseworker feels that a refusal of entry clearance would breach Article 8 of the ECHR or result in unjustifiably harsh consequences for the applicant or their family. Furthermore, Appendix FM of the Immigration Rules already allows refugees to sponsor adult dependent relatives living overseas to join them where, due to age, illness or disability, that person requires long-term personal care that can be provided only by relatives in the UK.

Paragraph (c) of the proposed new clause relates to refugees sponsoring dependent siblings under the age of 25, as long as they were under 18 or unmarried at the time their sibling left their country. I draw noble Lords’ attention to paragraph 319X of the Immigration Rules, which allows extended family, including siblings, to sponsor children to come here where there are serious and compelling circumstances. Again, consideration will also be given to any factors that might warrant a grant of leave outside the rules, where the rules are not met.

I hope this reassures the noble Baroness that there are vehicles within the existing policy framework to reunite the family members her amendment seeks to cover. An expansion of the policy could significantly increase the numbers who could qualify to come here from not just conflict regions but any country from which someone is granted protection. This would mean extended family members who themselves do not need protection being able to come here, which risks reducing our capacity to assist the most vulnerable refugees.

On numbers, I highlight that the UK has now issued over 29,000 family reunion visas in only the last five years, with more than half of those issued to children—a substantial number that should not be underestimated.

I agree with the intention of compassion and humanity that motivates Amendment 64, proposed by my noble friend Lord Dundee. However, we do not support this amendment, which seeks to create a humanitarian visa for EEA and Swiss nationals. It is unclear to me and the Government why those citizens have humanitarian needs that cannot be addressed by their own European country.

The Government have an excellent humanitarian record in assisting vulnerable people, including children. The UK is one of the world’s leading refugee resettlement states, resettling more refugees than any other country in Europe, and is in the top five countries worldwide. Since 2015 we have resettled more than 25,000 refugees, around half of whom have been children.

Once we have delivered our current commitments under the vulnerable persons resettlement scheme, we will consolidate our main schemes into a new global UK resettlement scheme. Our priority will be to continue to identify and resettle vulnerable refugees in need of protection, as identified and referred by the UNHCR. The focus of our humanitarian record is on those most in need, and I suggest that today’s amendment does not cover those most in need.

I turn to each proposed condition of the humanitarian visa in detail. Overall, it is unclear why, regarding the condition set out in subsection 3(a) of the proposed new clause, the UK should pick up healthcare provision for EEA and Swiss citizens, whether they are residing in their country of nationality or not, as these countries have excellent healthcare systems. However, our current discretionary leave policy allows us to grant leave to remain to individuals who do not qualify for leave to remain under the Immigration Rules but where there are exceptional or compassionate reasons for allowing them to remain in the UK, including on medical grounds and ill health.

The discretionary leave policy can, for example, address the needs of those who face a real risk of being exposed to a serious, rapid and irreversible decline in their state of health as a result of the absence of appropriate medical treatment in their home country. The policy also allows us to balance this care, and our international obligations under the ECHR, with the need to protect the finite resources of the NHS. The threshold for a person to be considered for discretionary leave on the basis of their medical condition is very clearly set out in our policy on medical claims and is intentionally high for this reason.

Furthermore, we are already dedicated to ensuring that vulnerable groups can access the NHS without charge. There are several groups applying for leave to remain in the UK who are exempt from the requirement to pay the immigration health charge, including asylum claimants and victims of modern slavery who apply for discretionary leave to remain. Those who are exempt from paying the IHC, or for whom the requirement is waived, are entitled to use the NHS generally without charge.

On the condition set out in proposed new subsection 3(b), the Government are committed to supporting vulnerable children. This amendment fails to recognise the safe and legal routes in the current immigration system for reuniting families, including the previously mentioned refugee family reunion rules, as well as Part 8 and Appendix FM of the Immigration Rules, all of which will remain in place at the end of the transition period.

The proposed amendment would also require the Government to create a new visa route for orphaned children who are EEA or Swiss nationals to come to the UK to be placed in local authority foster care where it is in their best interests. It is unclear why an orphaned child who is German, Italian or Greek, for example, should come to the UK on humanitarian grounds and be placed in local authority care here. These are safe European countries, and it is not appropriate for the UK to take children out of care in their own home countries and bring them here. Local authorities in the UK are already facing significant pressures, currently caring for over 5,000 unaccompanied asylum-seeking children, which is an increase of 146% since 2014.

On the condition set out in proposed new subsection 3(c), child dependants of those with leave in the UK are very well catered for in the Immigration Rules, which means that there is no need for primary legislation to create provision that already exists.

Turning to Amendment 79, I appreciate the noble Baroness’s intent behind the amendment, which seeks to create a means whereby, in the future, EEA and Swiss citizens will be able to join a spouse, partner, parent or a child in the UK who is either a British citizen or holds valid leave here, but without being subject to the current and established financial requirements for family migration.

There are a number of additional factors that I would like to turn to, which are also reasons for objecting to this amendment. I remind noble Lords that the minimum income requirement is based on in-depth analysis and advice from the independent Migration Advisory Committee. It did not find any clear case for differentiation in the level of the minimum income requirement between UK countries and regions. A single national threshold provides clarity and simplicity. Data also show that the gross median earnings in 2019 exceeded the minimum income requirement in every country and region of the UK. So it is true to say that the minimum income requirement is set at a suitable and consistent level and promotes financial independence, thereby avoiding burdens on the taxpayer and ensuring that families can participate sufficiently in everyday life to facilitate integration into British society.

In all family cases, the decision-maker will consider whether the Immigration Rules are otherwise met and, if not, will go on to consider whether there are exceptional circumstances that would render refusal a breach of Article 8 of the ECHR because it would result in unjustifiably harsh consequences for the applicant or their family. Each application is considered on its merits and on a case-by-case basis, taking into account the individual circumstances. The rules also give direct effect to the Secretary of State’s statutory duty to have regard, as a primary consideration, to a child’s best interests in making an immigration decision affecting them. In the future, British citizens and settled persons who want to be joined by family members who are EEA or Swiss citizens will benefit from these considerations without the need for Amendment 79.

Amendment 79 undermines the sound basis on which family migration to this country has been placed in recent years. It would circumvent the need for family migration to be on a basis whereby families are financially independent and able to contribute to the UK. It is for this reason that the income requirement was set out in the Immigration Rules. The Supreme Court has upheld this requirement as lawful and judged that it is not discriminatory. The amendment therefore seeks to contradict this ruling. There is no justifiable reason to avoid this requirement in the future by giving preferential treatment to family members based solely on their nationality. It is also unlikely to be lawful to do so.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, asked if I had figures on the numbers who are affected, or who are projected to be affected. I do not have them on me. If we have them, I will provide them for her.

I hope that, on that basis, noble Lords are happy not to press their amendments.

Lord Bates Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) (Con)
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I have received one request to speak after the Minister from the noble Lord, Lord Green of Deddington.

Lord Green of Deddington Portrait Lord Green of Deddington (CB) [V]
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My Lords, I do not always agree with the Home Office, but I do commend the answers that the Minister has just given on these three amendments.

I want to make some brief comments on Amendment 79. As the Minister just pointed out, the present income threshold for a spousal visa is designed to ensure that those coming to the UK for family reunion have enough resources to play a full part in British life and do not become a burden on the taxpayer. That is surely a sensible approach. As she mentioned, this has been to the Supreme Court, which ruled the policy to be lawful. Indeed, far from removing the threshold, there are, in certain cases, strong arguments for raising it.

The Migration Advisory Committee has said that, on average, for the family income to cover the cost of all public services, a higher threshold is required: namely, £25,700, rather than the current level of £18,600—a difference of £7,100. Even that threshold would not be enough, it says, for a non-EU household to make a net contribution to public finances. For them, the figure would be £38,000 a year. We must have in mind the impact of changes to these rules on the taxpayer and the reaction that they may have to that.

Finally, it is perhaps important to note that a reduction in the threshold would run entirely contrary to the Government’s 2017 election manifesto, which promised to raise the level of the threshold. That, of course, has still not been done.

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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I thank the noble Lord for his comments. I pretty much agree with him on every point.

On the higher threshold, the MAC will not be passive in commenting on the various aspects of the new immigration system, and I am sure that the threshold will be one of them.

15:00
Baroness Hamwee Portrait Baroness Hamwee (LD) [V]
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My Lords, on the minimum income requirement, what is lawful is still not necessarily the system that many people want, including British citizens who, to their surprise, are affected by the rules. The Minister said that they were clear, but what counts towards assessing whether an income is £18,600 is a problem and has been for some time. It has also been changed from time to time, and the income of the person sponsored does not count. I do not have up-to-date figures, but it puts this arrangement out of reach for about half the wage earners in this country.

However, we are not here to debate the minimum income requirement, so I will go back to the family reunion point—it is all intertwined, of course. My noble friend Lord Bruce said he had been struck by how something that was not a problem can become one. Here, we are seeking to address something that has been a problem for some time and which will become a bigger problem. I am of course aware that Appendix FM and paragraph 319X of the Immigration Rules deal with exceptional circumstances. Sadly, the situations we are debating are not exceptional. To exercise discretion outside of the rules is an unsatisfactory position when we could have rules. The Minister talked about dependents being left alone. More often they are left with a single parent.

The organisations on the ground are concerned about this. This is not something manufactured in my head. It is an issue that we will have to go on pursuing. I thought that the humanitarian case to which the Minister subscribed was undermined at the end by her referring to numbers. Since the numbers are never going to be overwhelming, I would prefer to stick to the humanitarian case. However, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 62.

Amendment 62 withdrawn.
Lord Duncan of Springbank Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)
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We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 63. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this or anything else in the group to a Division should make this clear in debate.

Amendment 63

Moved by
63: After Clause 4, insert the following new Clause—
“Duty to raise awareness of citizenship rights
(1) The Secretary of State must take steps to raise awareness of rights under the British Nationality Act 1981 to register as a British citizen to persons to whom subsection (2) applies.(2) This section applies to any person who has lost rights under section 1 and Schedule 1.(3) Within six months of the day on which this Act is passed, the Secretary of State must publish a report detailing the steps taken to raise awareness of rights under subsection (1), and lay it before Parliament.”
Lord Rosser Portrait Lord Rosser (Lab)
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Amendment 63 would lay a duty on the Secretary of State to raise awareness of people’s rights to register as a British citizen under the British Nationality Act 1981, with the people concerned being those who lose rights under Clause 1 and Schedule 1 of the Bill. The amendment would also require the Secretary of State to publish and lay before Parliament a report within six months of this Bill becoming an Act, detailing the action taken to raise awareness of rights to register as a British citizen.

As I understand it, before the 1981 Act anyone born in the UK was born British. The 1981 Act ended that and laid down who is and who is not a British citizen, and who is entitled to citizenship. Someone born in the UK now is only a British citizen if one of their parents is a British citizen or settled in the UK. Apart from the Home Secretary having a general power to register any child as a British citizen, all registration under the British Nationality Act 1981 is by entitlement. A child or an adult who satisfies the criteria for registration is entitled to British citizenship. The 1981 Act does not give the Home Secretary the decision of whether someone is entitled to British citizenship. This is different from naturalisation as a British citizen, which is only at the discretion of the Home Secretary, and only adults can be naturalised.

The EU settlement scheme, which provides for pre-settled and settled status, raises an issue. Some of those about to lose EU free movement rights in the UK will have rights to register as British citizens that they have not yet exercised, and they would quite probably wish to do so as people of EEA or Swiss nationality or parentage in the UK if the alternative was settled status. Citizenship means much more than settled status, and there being no available evidence of citizenship can have significant adverse consequences if changes are subsequently made to immigration policies, as the Windrush generation have found out.

In the shadow of the Windrush scandal, the Government should not be casual in their attitude to people’s right of access to citizenship. They should be working proactively to ensure that those, including children, who have the right to register as British citizens, with the same rights as all of us, are aware of that right and can access it. With the end of free movement and the focus on the EU settlement scheme, there is a risk of those who have the right to access British citizenship and register as British citizens ending up with at best an immigration status. This amendment seeks to minimise the risk of this happening.

In their response, can the Government update the Committee on what work is being done by the Home Secretary and the Home Office to proactively raise awareness and encourage and assist those who have the right to be British citizens to enjoy those rights? If the answer is that no such work is being undertaken on this citizenship issue, can the Government explain why not? I beg to move.

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Portrait Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)
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My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 67 in my name and those of other noble Lords who will be speaking. I am grateful for their support. I express support for Amendment 63, moved so well by my noble friend Lord Rosser. Once again, I am grateful to the Project for the Registration of Children as British Citizens, of which I am a patron, and to Amnesty International UK for its briefing.

Amendment 67 would place a duty on the Secretary of State to encourage, promote and facilitate awareness and the exercising of rights to British citizenship among EEA and Swiss nationals. It would also introduce a positive duty to confirm information known to the Home Office that is relevant to establishing a person’s right to citizenship. I am told that at present such information is all too often not forthcoming—a particular problem for many looked-after children—but there appears to be a greater readiness to check and act on such information when it confirms that there is no entitlement to citizenship.

The intention of the amendment is to shift the Home Office’s mindset, in the spirit of Wendy Williams’s Windrush report. That mindset resulted in the active discouragement of members of the Windrush generation from exercising their rights to British citizenship. As we have heard, there are real fears that the lessons of that review are not being learned when it comes to children of EEA and Swiss citizens who were born in the UK or who have grown up here from an early age. Research by the European Children’s Rights Unit, funded by the Home Office, indicates that Roma children, who are an especially vulnerable group, may be particularly at risk.

More generally, PRCBC gives the example of Matteo, who was born in the UK to Italian parents. He has lived here all his life apart from occasional visits to Italy and a gap year in continental Europe. When he became an adult, he discovered to his great distress that he was not regarded as a British citizen when he was refused inclusion on the electoral register for the general election and was twice refused a British passport. Before contacting PRCBC, he had been given poor legal advice that he should apply for settled status under the EU settlement scheme and be naturalised as a British citizen at a future date. Having established what his situation was, PRCBC was able to help him register his entitlement to British citizenship under the 1981 Act. No one had previously advised him of this right, and he had suffered serious mental distress as a result. A young man in this situation should not have to rely on the chance of finding his way into an organisation like that. How many are not finding their way to such organisations?

Can the Minister explain what exactly the Home Office is doing to proactively encourage the exercise of the right to register citizenship, both directly and through local authorities, to ensure that children and young people such as Matteo are not missing out on their chance of registering as citizens? What steps is it now taking to ensure that no one who is entitled to register as a British citizen is wrongly channelled through the EUSS as an immigrant without being informed of their existing right to register as a citizen? Are any specific steps being taken to ensure that Roma children have the information and support they need? Also, can she give us some idea of the number of children overall likely to be affected?

These are important questions. The right to British citizenship of an unknown number of children is at stake. I and others emphasised the importance of citizenship in moving an earlier amendment, and there was a lot of support in the Committee for citizenship’s importance. The answer to these questions will give us some idea of the importance the Home Office attaches to it, and how far it is genuinely willing to shift its mindset in the wake of the Windrush scandal and the Lessons Learned report on it. In that report, Wendy Williams wrote of the need for “deep cultural reform”. The response to these amendments will serve as an indicator of whether the Home Office is genuinely committed to such reform.

Earl of Dundee Portrait The Earl of Dundee (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I support the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, on protecting rights to British citizenship. We have already debated her first one, Amendment 68. This urges that applicants should not be disadvantaged just because registration costs might become too much for them to afford. We are now considering her Amendment 67, which advises that our system should set out to be proactive, helpful and encouraging towards applicants. Correspondingly, Amendment 63, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, correctly argues that in the first place, steps should be taken to raise awareness of available British citizenship rights under the British Nationality Act 1981. I hope the Minister is able to endorse these recommendations.

Lord Alton of Liverpool Portrait Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
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My Lords, Amendment 67, to which I am a signatory, returns to the issue of citizenship. It is a pleasure to follow both the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, and the noble Baroness, Lady Lister. I was particularly pleased that she referenced the position of the Roma, an issue I raised earlier this week in our previous debates. I hope the Minister will be able to answer the question put to her by the noble Baroness. I also strongly support what the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, said in the context of Amendment 63, but let me add in parenthesis that I think it unfortunate that citizenship is so often viewed through the lens of immigration policy.

Amendment 67 was originally coupled with Amendment 68, which focused on the issue of citizenship fees, as referred to by the noble Earl a moment ago, and which we debated last week. At the conclusion of that debate, the Minister said the Government intended to appeal the decision of the High Court in the case, Project for the Registration of Children as British Citizens v the Secretary of State for the Home Department—a case in which, as she knows, I provided a witness statement.

15:15
On 10 September, following the discussion we had in Committee, I tabled a Question asking the Government what estimated legal and administrative costs the Home Office had met in that case thus far, and what they estimated such costs would be of any appeal against the judgment. The Question is due for answer on 24 September, but it would help the Committee greatly if those figures could be given today. Not only would the figures enable us to look at them alongside the cost of providing citizenship with charge to groups such as children in care; they would remind us of the lengths to which the Government are going to preserve the income generated above the administrative costs involved. We should be able to weigh one against the other, as I know the noble Baroness would. I would be grateful, therefore, if the Minister would also ask the Home Secretary to consider meeting the movers of Amendments 67 and 68 before embarking on yet another costly legal action, which seeks to perpetuate arrangements that Sajid Javid rightly identified as prohibitively expensive.
This brings me to the main question in Amendment 67: what price do we place on citizenship, or, as this amendment spells out,
“the duty of the Secretary of State to encourage, promote and facilitate awareness … of rights to British citizenship”?
If I have any quibble about the wording, it is that I would rather it went further and added the words, “responsibilities, duties and obligations” of citizenship to the word “rights”.
In thinking about this amendment, I reflected on my 20 years as director of the Foundation for Citizenship at Liverpool John Moores University, where I held a chair and am an Honorary Fellow, and on the central importance of promoting active citizenship and full participation in society. The city of Liverpool has had to wrestle with a painful history and all the tensions and challenges generated by social inequality. But it has refused to become a prisoner of its past. When it describes itself as
“the whole world in one city,”
it does so with a confident proclamation of the respect it has for diversity and the enrichment which different cultures have brought to its table. But as well as a respect for difference, its citizens also overwhelmingly cherish our British values of democracy, the rule of law and human rights, and they are not ashamed of the patriotic stories of sacrifice that have enabled those characteristics to flourish.
I want people to be proud of being British citizens and am alarmed by alienation, stigmatisation and ghettoisation, which can lead to people following ideologies that threaten our way of life. Parts of Britain feel completely abandoned by the metropolitan elites.
We need a rounded view of citizenship in which we have a respect for customs, laws and institutions that serve the common good and promote social solidarity. In promoting the centrality of the rule of law, we need to share our stories and histories and memorialise the lives which paid for our freedoms and liberties. We need to cultivate a reverence for the generous impulses and altruism which motivate so many who contribute so positively to our society.
The Jewish sage, Hillel, was right when he said,
“If I am not for myself, who will be? But if I am only for myself, what am I?”
Hillel’s fine balance must always be struck. So, I support amendment 67. Without a vibrant sense of citizenship, people living in our midst will not believe they fully belong. They will not share our rights, nor will they fully enter into the responsibilities which are the key to creating a good society.
When she comes to reply, I hope the Minister will be able to answer the question I have put to her about the costs of appealing the High Court decision on an easing of some of the costs involved in securing the right to become a British citizen.
Baroness Primarolo Portrait Baroness Primarolo (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, I shall speak in support of Amendments 67 and 63. I support the comments made by my noble friends Lord Rosser and Lady Lister—she posed excellent questions—and I am pleased to follow the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Alton. Much has been said and I shall make only a few comments.

My first point concerns the crucial question of citizenship, which is of great importance to children. Significantly, it is a matter of identity, belonging and security, including, I regret to say, being free from the Home Office’s immigration powers and controls.

Many children born in the United Kingdom or with lengthy residence here have a right in law, under the British Nationality Act 1981, to register as British citizens—they are British citizens—but, as my noble friend Lord Rosser pointed out, the provisions in Clause 1 and Schedule 1 are in danger of undermining that right. These children include those born in the United Kingdom to European and Swiss citizens, stateless children born in the UK and looked-after children.

I looked at the debates on the British Nationality Bill to see what the clear intention of Parliament was. I would not recommend it as bedtime reading, but it clearly conveys the right to citizenship. It says that it is a right and that it should be given to individuals as specified, according to the intention of Parliament in debating that Bill.

Registering this right has become extremely important, particularly for children. Perhaps in the past much less emphasis was placed on the importance of registering, but, as the debates on this Bill have demonstrated, the hostile environment that has developed over the years means that thousands of children and young people are not being informed by the Government of their right to British citizenship. We know that citizenship means that a child or young adult obtains all the advantages that come with it, including the right to remain in Britain, freedom from immigration controls, and access to student loans, employment, health services and social security. Those are all rights that, tragically, we saw being denied to people in the Windrush scandal, and another generation could be at risk from the actions being taken here. Intentional or not, the outcome is the same.

Many children who were born in the United Kingdom or who have lived here from an early age do not have British citizenship or leave to remain. Currently, at worst, a child or young adult who is not registered is at risk of being removed. As many as 120,000 children, 65,000 of whom were born here, could be affected by this question of citizenship.

However, it is not just children who are not aware of their right. Similarly, parents, foster parents and corporate parents, such as social services, often do not know that these children are in fact entitled to British citizenship. That is not really surprising, given, I regret to say, that the Government do not systematically publicise the right to citizenship and encourage people to register.

As my noble friend Lord Rosser said, the Act does not give the Home Office the power to decide whether someone is entitled to citizenship. It is not a gift; it is a right in law. The role of the Home Office is simply to recognise the child’s legal right and register their citizenship. We do not need confusion around this matter. We do not need young people to be unaware of their rights. We need to ensure that the enormous danger of yet another generation being denied their right to British citizenship does not arise, and the amendment provides a way of doing that.

We cannot allow people to be denied their rights because of incompetent administration, a lack of knowledge of procedures or sometimes, I regret to say, callous responses from the Home Office. Amendments 63 and 67 seek to place a duty on the Secretary of State to raise awareness of people’s rights and ensure that they are able to achieve those rights, giving them security here as British citizens.

I know that the Minister is sympathetic to many of these arguments. I hope that when she responds she will answer the questions posed by my noble friends and that she will also explain to the Committee how, once and for all, this Government will make sure that those who are entitled can become British citizens without barriers or preventions deterring them from achieving those rights. I look forward to her response.

Lord Greaves Portrait Lord Greaves (LD)
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My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Primarolo, and particularly her last sentence. It should be written down and put on a banner strung from the balcony here—although, if we did that, we would probably be investigated for terrorism.

I think it was the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, who said that it is necessary to shift the mindset of the Home Office. If it was not her, she should have said it and we should all agree to it. She also thanked all the people who had put their names down to speak in support of the amendment. I always admonish people when they say that, as they should wait to hear what is said before doing so. However, in this case I completely support those who have introduced both amendments, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Lister.

I am no expert in these areas. Every time I get involved in a citizenship or immigration case, as I do from time to time—either in the past as a councillor or, nowadays, as a Member of the House of Lords, or just as someone people know—I become ever more appalled by the hoops and obstacles that many people have to go through. Not everybody has to do that; some people sail through the system quite easily. That is not always because they are the sorts of people who can cope with systems, bureaucracies, organisations, administrations and so on. It seems random. Some people who seem to be in a similar position to others have enormous difficulty, but others less so.

One problem with the mindset in the Home Office is that, once it has said no or has raised serious obstacles, it does not like to admit that it was wrong. I have found that to be so throughout the culture of the organisation. It might apply to only a minority of people—I do not know—but once people are in difficulty, they just seem to get further and further into the morass.

The costs of achieving citizenship are ridiculous. We should encourage people, not try to rip them off. There is a high degree of bureaucracy involving the provision of documents. If something is slightly wrong with those documents, more obstacles are put forward, whereas very often common sense should dictate that they suffice. For people who want to be naturalised, there is also the utterly ludicrous testing of knowledge of British life, although it would not apply to people who are exercising a right.

15:30
One of the cases I was involved in, not so recently now, was that of a young man who lives in Colne. It got a lot of publicity so I can talk about it. His mother was not a British citizen; she was an Australian citizen and was not married to his father. This situation has since been sorted out, but he was old enough for it not to apply to him. Having got a provisional licence a few years ago, with no problem, he applied for a driving licence because he required one for his job. However, now there is all the cross-checking between the Home Office and the Department for Transport. He was issued with the licence but sometime later he got a letter, not from the Department for Transport but from the Home Office.
The first page had two or three paragraphs explaining why he was not entitled to a driving licence. This was all about the fact that he was not actually a British citizen and not entitled to live in this country. This was shocking enough, but he turned the page over and the first paragraph was headed, “What should I do now?”. It said, “You should take immediate steps to leave the country”. This is a lad who was born locally, had lived in Colne all his life, been to school, had a job and so on. He was lucky. He was clearly a Lancashire lad. He clearly had a white skin, and had parents who originally lived in the area, as had their parents. He got support from all parts of the political spectrum; from the Daily Mail to people like me and beyond. It was sorted out but that took several weeks.
What I objected to most was the abrupt and rude way in which a letter to somebody telling them they were not entitled to a driving licence suddenly went on to tell them to get out. Where he was supposed to go, nobody quite knew. That is the sort of attitude and mindset that requires to be shifted. Clearly, the whole process should be a lot easier for people who have been born in and grown up in this country, and who have a right to be British citizens.
Then there are the people who come to live here and decide that they wish to be naturalised as British citizens. Not everybody will; some would like to but do not want to lose their original citizenship, if they come from a country that does not allow joint citizenship. If they want to be British citizens, having come here and contributed to society—paid their taxes, gone to work, raised a family and all the rest of it—we should be welcoming them. We should not have procedures that consist of all these obstacles. We should have procedures that encourage and welcome.
Subsection (1) of the proposed new clause in the noble Baroness’s Amendment 67:
“It is the duty of the Secretary of State”
I repeat, the duty—
“to encourage, promote and facilitate awareness and exercise of rights to British citizenship”,
should therefore not have to be put in legislation. It should be obvious. Right across the political spectrum, we say to people all the time: “Integrate, take part, get registered, vote, stand for the council, join in, try and understand British ways of living, try and get on with your neighbours, get to know your neighbours, make friends”, and all the rest of it.
I live in a part of the country where, a few years ago, the issue of separate communities was talked about. It is still a problem. There is not enough integration. There are many efforts, but not enough, to get people from different communities to get to know those from other communities. They go to school together and are in the same classes. They go to work together and, after work, they go home into their own communities. We ought to be working to break this down. One way in which people who have come to live here from other countries can do this is by becoming British citizens. We should be cheering and welcoming it, not putting up the obstacles which the mindset of the Home Office does.
Lord Judd Portrait Lord Judd (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for his characteristically forceful speech, particularly the striking and moving anecdote about the young man who lost his driving licence. I fear that that kind of experience is not unique and is repeated too often, in too many ways.

I put on record my strongest possible appreciation and support for these two amendments. They are vital. I also want to say how cheered I have been by the strength of argument and emotion with which my noble friend Lord Rosser introduced the debate, and by the way that my noble friend Lady Lister backed him up with her commitment. As the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, has just pointed out, the first bit of the Member’s explanatory statement for this amendment says that it

“is to probe the case for a statutory duty to encourage, promote and facilitate”.

These are key words. The statement runs on to say that it is to ensure the Secretary of State

“does not exercise certain of her powers and responsibilities in any way that may impede the exercise of those rights”.

That hardly needs to be said; at the same time, it needs to be underlined because one cannot be altogether certain on that front.

Rights are rights but there are too many indications of considerable numbers of people—young people and children, in particular—who are not really yet switched on to what their rights are and what is necessary to register them under the new arrangements. There may be a host of reasons why they are not acutely aware of what they must do, but that problem exists with a considerable number of people. I would like to feel that we had a Home Office with political leadership that supports civil servants in saying that their job is to ensure that everyone with a right is going to be able to register to continue the fulfilment of those rights. That is the kind of commitment and drive we need from Ministers and civil servants.

In the context of a Select Committee to which I belonged at the time, I was one of those who had the good fortune to attend a couple of briefings, and I also went to the Home Office to be briefed by civil servants on the arrangements that they were making under the necessary processes following the removal of European Union citizenship in Britain. I was impressed then, because there seemed to be a real commitment by the team working on this issue to tackle the situation effectively. Now, however, I have the feeling that there is not so much inertia but more a sense that our job is to provide the facilities and make them as accessible as possible. We have to be more proactive than that, but that is not going to happen on the scale and with the thoroughness that it should unless leadership comes from the top.

I thank my noble friends Lord Rosser and Lady Lister, and all the others who have spoken so effectively and convincingly on this issue. I cannot believe that the Minister, being the sort of person she is and on hearing these arguments, will not find a way in which she can convincingly respond to them.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Portrait Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]
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My Lords, I offer the Green group’s support to Amendments 63 and 67. We have already heard many powerful speeches, so I will be brief.

I want to address Amendment 67 in particular, because it has full cross-party support, in so far as that can be expressed by the procedures of your Lordships’ House. I note that Members from the three largest parties and the Cross Benches have signed it. It struck me in looking at this that perhaps I might make representations about our procedures to show the full breadth of cross-party support in our multiparty age; there might need to be the possibility of more signatures to be available on the Order Paper, but that is something for another time.

I want to focus on some of the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Lister. She spoke about the imbalance between the Home Office’s actions: its clear desire to enforce action against people who it perceives not to be British citizens and not to have the right to be here versus its extreme inaction in informing and educating people about their rights and making sure that they are not excluded from those rights. As many noble Lords have noted, there is not much use in having rights if you do not know about them; that is effectively being denied your rights. I was reflecting on that and thinking that, effectively, the Home Office is defying the will of Parliament in defying the rights that Parliament has granted to people, by failing to inform them. That is not what should be happening, but it clearly is. That is why I think it is really important to support both these amendments, which work in much the same ways, and will push to see them in the Bill.

We saw with the Windrush scandal, which one just cannot avoid referring to in this context, that the Home Office denied people their personal rights. It denied them their life in some cases—the actions taken by the Home Office were deadly.

I also note the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, that all too often these issues are mixed up with immigration, but they are absolutely distinct. We are talking about British people being able to live in their own country and exercise the rights that they enjoy. I commend both these amendments to your Lordships’ House.

Baroness Hamwee Portrait Baroness Hamwee (LD) [V]
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My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 67 on behalf of the Liberal Democrat Benches, because we have all heard too many stories of individuals who did not realise the significance of their rights. Many speakers have stressed the term “rights”, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Primarolo and Lady Bennett, and the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and referred to people who did not know their rights until the crunch point when they encountered the difficulties of proving those rights.

15:45
Less tangible is what other noble Lords have referred to: citizenship being about bringing belonging, not just being about arriving—or, in many cases, not about arriving at all, because most people with rights to citizenship are born here. This is not about immigration but about nationality, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, have both stressed.
Last week, my noble friend Lady Ludford and the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, both talked about the atmosphere of palpable excitement and anticipation, and then the sense of achievement, when they have officiated at citizenship ceremonies. I witnessed that, probably from the back of the same council chamber where my noble friend officiated, sitting with the husband of a friend who was becoming British—although I made her go back afterwards to arrange with the registrar to correct the certificate, since the omission of an umlaut had previously caused quite enough difficulties. The converse of belonging for the individual is that the state wants people living here to feel that they belong, to have all the rights that go with citizenship and to be able to be good citizens.
Windrush has been mentioned. Subsection (2)(c) raises the spectre of the destruction of records—the amendment seeks to quash it before it can be raised properly—which in the case of Windrush happened simply so that the building could be vacated. Duties to encourage, to promote, to facilitate awareness and to exercise the right of citizenship are all things that we support.
Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have partaken in this debate. I do not disagree that people should have their rights communicated to them and generally should feel part of the communities in which they live, as the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, says.

At this stage, it is worth decoupling two distinct matters: one is the end of the transition period and the other is the consideration of whether someone is British or should become so. However, I do not think the latter is at issue. For the former, which is the subject of this Bill, we have made extensive arrangements to ensure that the rights enjoyed by those who have resided here under free movement can continue until the end of this year.

British citizenship, as noble Lords have said, is determined by the British Nationality Act 1981, which sets out how someone may already be British—for example, through their birth here—and, for those who are not, the means by which a person may seek to become so. This might be through naturalisation or registration, depending on the individual’s circumstances and connections. Any applications submitted will utilise information that we already hold on an individual as far as possible, although there may always be circumstances in which further information may be needed. We treat all applications to become British equally, regardless of the nationality that the applicant may currently hold. The important consideration is whether they meet the requirements set out in statute. Equally, our guidance on the application process is published and available to all.

Last year we received nearly 175,000 nationality applications, which indicates that people generally are aware of the application process, the benefits of becoming British and what it might mean to individuals when they are ready to apply. That does not mean that we cannot consider alternative approaches. Noble Lords will remember, and a noble Lord referred to the fact, that the Home Secretary announced on 21 July in a Statement that alongside the Windrush Lessons Learned Review, she proposed—along with evaluating changes to immigration and nationality laws to ensure that they are fit for purpose for today’s world—to make sure that the changes were now communicated effectively where they had not previously been so. Many of the speeches touched upon that aspect of things.

While there has not been a suggestion by noble Lords that it is a change of law per se that is of concern to them—I absolutely get where noble Lords are coming from—but perhaps more general awareness for a group who may have previously not considered becoming British, I am happy to put on record that I will ask the Home Secretary whether raising awareness of citizenship more generally could form part of that ongoing process and to consider ways how that might be achieved. I will also pass on the request from the noble Lord, Lord Alton, to meet the Home Secretary, but any change should be for all people potentially affected, not only those who would lose freedom of movement rights—I do not think he was suggesting otherwise. He also asked how much the legal cost of court appeals had been. He will not be surprised that I cannot recall that off the top of my head, but I do not disagree with the general principle that an awful lot of money on all sorts of sides is spent on court cases. I hope that with those undertakings, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Lord Rosser Portrait Lord Rosser (Lab)
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I thank the Minister for her reply. I understand from what she said that she has undertaken to discuss the issue of further raising awareness with the Home Secretary. I also thank all noble Lords who spoke in support of the amendments in this group.

I think I am right in saying that the Minister did not respond to the question as to what the numbers are of those who are still entitled to British citizenship under the British Nationality Act 1981 but have yet to apply. If we are not aware of the number, that in itself is a real case. I know that the Minister has undertaken to look at this matter further, but it makes the real case for making sure that we raise awareness as much as possible to people who might be in that situation to urge them to consider exercising their right to British citizenship. Surely we need to ensure that all those entitled to register for British citizenship either have it confirmed that that is already their status or are advised that they can register for that citizenship to which they are entitled under the 1981 Act.

We are, after all, talking about an entitlement—a right—to British citizenship, as I know the Minister has recognised. Surely, as people who are proud to be British, we should actively want to ensure that all those who have that entitlement are made aware of it and encouraged to exercise it, with the key responsibility for doing so and facilitating that entitlement to citizenship resting clearly with the Secretary of State and the Government. I hope very much that the discussions that I believe the Minister has said that she will have with the Home Secretary will lead to further very strenuous efforts to raise awareness of this right. Indeed, I hope that the Government will go further, as proposed in Amendment 67, to encourage people to exercise their entitlement and to do their utmost to facilitate matters so that the entitlement can be exercised with ease. In the light of that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 63 withdrawn.
Amendments 64 to 76 not moved.
Lord Duncan of Springbank Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)
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That brings us on to the group beginning with Amendment 77. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this or anything else in this group to a Division should make that clear in the debate.

Amendment 77

Moved by
77: After Clause 4, insert the following new Clause—
“Charter for EU Immigration and Demographic Change
(1) The Secretary of State must prepare a document, to be known as the Charter for EU Immigration and Demographic Change, explaining the formulation of the policies of Her Majesty’s Government relating to immigration from the European Union.(2) The Charter must, in particular, set out—(a) the Government’s demographic objectives in relation to such immigration, and(b) the means by which such objectives will be attained.(3) The Government must lay the Charter before Parliament within one year of the commencement of this Act.”
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts Portrait Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con)
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My Lords, I will also speak to Amendment 78, which forms part of this group. I do not often quote Lenin, but he is supposed to have said, “There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen.” Our present era is one of the latter. It presents challenges and opportunities to the people in this country and across the world, and a challenge for Governments in managing these changes in a way that enhances our overall quality of life while balancing the inevitable tension between preservation and progress. However, politicians of all persuasions find it hard to address these mega-issues, which have a 10, 20 or even 30-year timescale. Inevitably, and quite properly, they have their eyes fixed on the five-year electoral cycle. Given this, it is perhaps unsurprising that, for many politicians, the long grass is an effective way out.

Many Members of your Lordships’ House will be aware of my long-standing interest in demography and the impact of demographic change. The results of increases or decreases in population—I am glad to see the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, in her place, because she referred to the dangers of decreases in her speech when I was not here last Wednesday; she was quite right about that—are inexorable in their effect and are of extreme importance to the settled population of this country. When I refer to the “settled population” I mean every person legally entitled to be in this country, irrespective of race, colour or creed, or whether they have lived here for five months or 500 years. The views of the settled population on the issue of population growth could not be clearer. Recent polling found that 64% of us think that the UK is too crowded and 74% felt that the Government should have policies to address this challenge.

Nevertheless, there remains an influential minority, particularly among the commentariat, who agree that this is all too difficult and what will be will be. On the right, the argument is that the market will decide. On the left, the brotherhood of man means that we should keep our arms and our borders open. However, I am afraid that these arguments would not be supported by the overwhelming majority of this country. For many, a perpetually growing population in a relatively small island has not obviously resulted in an improvement in their prosperity or their way of life.

A couple of figures help set the matter in context. In the late 1990s, when the Blair Government decided to encourage large-scale immigration, the population of the United Kingdom was 58.1 million. Today, it is 66.4 million—an increase of more than 8 million. The ONS mid-projection for 25 years from now is 72 million —another 6 million increase. Therefore, over half a century our population will have increased 14 million, or 24%—a particularly significant figure in a country with some very densely populated regions.

Even reciting these figures gives critics the chance to allege a little Englander mentality, with machine guns on the white cliffs of Dover. That is not so: I absolutely recognise that new arrivals bring an economic and cultural dynamic from which our society has benefited greatly. This is an argument about scale, the wider impact of population growth and responding to the concerns of the people of this country in a way that builds trust in government.

Most of the arguments in favour of the demographic policies followed to date have been economic ones. Total GDP is often waved about by politicians as some sort of totemic symbol of success. Like many, I find that argument unappealing. GDP per head would surely be a more accurate measurement, and since economic gains are often not fairly shared, median GDP per head would be even better. We can argue about these and many other economic factors and we have done so at great length in this House over the years. What is unarguable is that no one is weighing in the scale the long-term non-economic challenges for our environment, our ecology and our society.

According to the latest ONS figures, released a couple of weeks ago, our population is currently growing by an average of 1,172 per day—428,000 per year. We live 2.3 people per dwelling. So on that metric, the inevitable maths show that we need to build 509 dwellings every day, 21 an hour, one every three minutes. By 2040, we seem likely to have built over an area the size of Bedfordshire—this after a decade in which Danny Dorling, professor of geography at Oxford University, has said:

“In absolute terms this is very likely to be the largest increase in the number of square miles that have been tarmacked or paved over in any decade in British history”.

16:00
The ecological challenge is no less severe. It is not just that the Environment Agency believes we will run short of water within 20 years. The Environmental Audit Committee believes that 25% of our agricultural land suffers from acute soil degradation. The impact on our native species is no less dramatic. We have seen a 75% decline in the number of our farmland birds in the last 40 years. Earlier today, the House discussed a Question tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, about the report from the RSPB giving further details of the collapse in bird populations. The effect on pollinators—on bees and bumblebees—has been equally severe.
For those Members of the House who are inclined to accept this development with equanimity, I gently remind them of the phrase, “every third bite”—one third of the food that we eat depends on pollination for its production.
As for the societal impact, in an article in the Times, David Aaronovitch wrote:
“I have a regular correspondent—let us call him Igor—who writes to me from Offa’s Dyke to complain about the modern world … Running through Igor’s protestations is a sense of bewilderment. And in this he captures what I now feel. What many of us are feeling and expressing. How could they? Why would they? Why didn’t we know?”
And these are only a handful of the non-economic issues that need to be properly considered and weighed. I hope the House will accept that collectively they are more important than, to quote Solzhenitsyn,
“the mould grown on the rock of economics”.
My amendments seek to achieve this balanced consideration. I have used as a template the example of the excellent Office for Budget Responsibility, which has the necessary level of independence and has achieved a high degree of public confidence in a relatively short time. Amendment 77 creates a charter for EU immigration and demographic change, which requires the Government to set out both their demographic objectives and the means of their achievement.
Amendment 78 establishes a body, the office for EU immigration and demographic change, to assess whether these objectives have been achieved. The office must report at least annually and under subsection 4(a) must include assessments of the environmental, ecological and societal impacts. Importantly, under subsection 5(b) the office is not empowered to,
“consider the impact of any alternative policies”.
This is to provide the reassurance that the office will not become a mouthpiece for one particular side of the argument.
No doubt some will ask, “Why does this only cover the EU?” Well, I am afraid that the scope of the Bill rules out wider considerations, but I see this as a first step. I freely admit that I would like the remit of this new body eventually to be extended to assess all aspects of the demographic challenges that this country faces.
To conclude, I hope the Minister will see that this is a way to lance the boil of an issue which has divided and disfigured our society for too long. I hope the House will agree that now is the time for the issue to be considered and addressed fairly and squarely. This is a new road and I accept fully that it will not be an easy one. In his book The New World Order Henry Kissinger wrote:
“To undertake a journey on a road never before travelled requires character and courage: character because the choice is not obvious; courage because the road will be lonely at first.”
I hope that the Government, and indeed the Opposition parties, will on this occasion show the necessary character and courage. I beg to move.
Lord Horam Portrait Lord Horam (Con)
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My Lords, I am delighted that my noble friend was able to get these amendments tabled. I think we should pay tribute to the wisdom of the clerks on this issue in extending it as far as they have. This is the right way to approach immigration policy—from the point of view of demography and population growth. We should assess the optimum level of population for a country such as the UK and, once that has been settled, we should decide what our policy is on immigration.

My noble friend has set out this subject with great clarity in his pamphlet Overcrowded Islands, produced with the help of Civitas, the Institute for the Study of Civil Society—an entirely appropriate body, if I may say so, for this question. It is well researched, cogently written, beautifully illustrated and I urge noble Lords to read it if they get an opportunity. I may say in passing that it is far better than most government White Papers in this area, which are rather turgid by comparison. They could well take a leaf out of his pamphlet.

My noble friend has covered the ground very well in his remarks this evening, so I will confine myself to two points, remembering the advice of Lloyd George to Harold Macmillan after his maiden speech that a good speech should make no more than two points, and if the audience remembers even one of them you have done well.

My first point is that, despite being an economist myself, I wholly agree with my noble friend’s sentiments about the role of economics. It is entirely the wrong way to approach immigration through the prism of economic policy. Business and many commentators and, sadly, the Government, do this in spades. The Government’s main adviser in this area is the Migration Advisory Council and they invoke it at every turn. However, the fact is that the MAC is composed almost entirely of academic economists specialising in manpower issues.

The MAC does a good job within its narrow remit, under a lot of pressure from business interests. I have met the new chairman of the MAC, Professor Brian Bell, and he is an impressive man. But, as my noble friend said, immigration involves much broader issues than simply economic policy. There is the question of democracy and population. There are environmental issues. Quoted in my noble friend’s pamphlet is a certain Boris Johnson, who said in an article in 2007:

“Do we want the south-east of Britain to resemble a giant suburbia?”


Frankly, he seems to be going the right way about that at the moment, judging by his housing policy. He seems to have forgotten all about his excellent sentiments of 2007. However, that is another matter.

There are ecological issues as well as environmental issues. There is the quality of life issue. Do we want all the good things about Britain to be perpetually unavailable because of overcrowding? There is the question of social cohesion. There is even a moral dimension—I have attached great importance to this. What right has Britain, a rich, developed country, to scour the world for talent from poorer developing countries that need it more than we do? All these issues should be addressed and the sort of unit that my noble friend envisages has the right approach to do that.

Again, speaking as an economist, I should say also that the assumptions underlying the usual economic argument that large-scale immigration is essential for business are simply wrong. Large-scale immigration damages economic growth. The simple point is that growth depends on increasing productivity. Productivity comes from increasing capital assets per person. When a person comes to this country, they occasionally bring significant capital assets but usually do not, and therefore productivity decreases and economic growth is damaged. It is no surprise to me that the large-scale immigration we have had over the last 10 or 20 years has been accompanied by very poor levels of productivity in this country. It is a major problem and the two are not unconnected.

Those are the simple economics. In addition, allowing business to recruit immigrants on a large scale reduces the incentive to train people who are already here. That is one reason why technical education and apprenticeships have been so poor in this country. We have supported higher education too much and further education too little. Arguing that we need immigration for economic reasons leaves out all those other subjects that are so important. In my view, it is also bad economics and bad business.

My noble friend mentioned the views of the people. My final point is that it is about time that we listened to the views of the people. They have been saying consistently and for years that they do not want any more immigration. They have been ignored. This is one of the issues that led to Brexit. Now we have Brexit, and still the people’s views are ignored. Especially in a Covid-haunted situation, where jobs are scarce, I cannot imagine what the political explosion will be. The only sensible way out of this is to put a cap on immigration at a reasonable level, decided with the help of a body such as that proposed by my noble friend.

I appreciate, in addressing the Minister, that these are large issues that his brief may not cover to the extent which we would like. But he is from the north of England, as I am from the north of England, and I am sure he is well aware of opinion on matters of this kind in the north of England. I hope that he will convey to his colleagues in government the importance and urgency of understanding these issues.

Viscount Craigavon Portrait Viscount Craigavon (CB) [V]
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My Lords, I am grateful to be able to express my support for these amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts. I particularly support the tour d’horizon of his opening speech.

I accept that these amendments are trying to sow the seeds of defining a wider principle than is focused on in the Bill, which is just on the EU. In my opinion, the two key words in these amendments are “demographic objectives.” As has been said, these will be defined by the Government and assessed by this new body, the office for demographic change. That office will focus exclusively on the agenda as put forward by the Government; it will not range freely wherever the current fashion happens to take it. However, it will focus on the current demographic objectives, while maybe revealing any shortcomings in them in practice.

Debate on this Bill has highlighted the need for a more systematic and dispassionate examination of this issue. There is, more than ever, a need for the public to have confidence in the statistics and aims on immigration to which the Government aspire. In the longer term, it is important that the department has some independent touchstone by which the public and Parliament can begin to assess the success or otherwise of what is being done in their name. The independence of the Treasury model gives some guidance as to how that might be achieved.

As a strong supporter of Brexit, and to the extent that we are no longer basing ourselves on the EU framework, I believe that we are now in a position to develop our own independent structures on immigration. Developing this new purported office or organisation to shadow how the department is framing its demographic objectives would be a vital process. This new office would not be an organisation that can range at will on the subject of immigration. Just to emphasise that, it is correctly restrained by the last line of Amendment 78, that it is not allowed to go wherever it wants and that it

“may not consider the impact of any alternative policies”—

that is, alternative to the Government’s.

Finally, following the stresses expected over the next few months, I would hope that the department and the Government could put this issue on their agenda for the future.

Baroness Neville-Rolfe Portrait Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
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My Lords, I rise to offer my support to my noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts in his quest for a mechanism to inject a careful, objective study of demographic change into government work, particularly on immigration. I start by congratulating my noble friend on his excellent and thoughtful report for Civitas, Overcrowded Islands? This report is full of facts and perspectives that make the case for the action that we are discussing. I wish to highlight three very different points from the report, which I think make the case for today’s amendments.

First, our population continues to grow fast—on average by just under 1,100 people a day. Only 316 of these are from natural increase, while 202 represent net immigration from Europe, the subject of this Bill, and 679 are from net immigration from outside Europe, which is partly balanced by 134 departing Brits. This growth is unbalanced, with more in the south-east, and by the mid-century the UK will overtake Germany in having the largest population in Europe and the most dense. The numbers I cited are also an underestimate of migration, given the weakness of official statistics—a consistent problem since at least the 1990s, when I worked on home affairs at Downing Street. For example, national insurance card numbers suggest that the migrant figures are significantly higher than those that I have just mentioned.

16:15
My second point is that there is growing evidence that widespread immigration is an important factor in our persistently poor productivity growth. That makes sense to me as a businesswoman: if low-cost labour is available, you invest less in capital.
Thirdly, as my noble friend has already said, to house the growth in population we are likely to have to build an area over the size of Bedfordshire by 2041, which will lead to a further increase in the rate of species loss and possibly a shortage of water. Indeed, the species loss we are already suffering was highlighted this week by the UN and the RSPB, as was discussed by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and my noble friend Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park at Questions earlier today. I am sure that those who care about the environment, as I do, also have an interest in proper demographic work.
Demographic changes have for many decades been a matter of contention. I am afraid that Ministers have sometimes misled the public on the facts. It would be clearer what the Government’s intentions were if there was a regular and reliable source of statistics and forecasts on demographic change. As discussed on earlier amendments, the new system leaves a great deal to employers, whose needs may change, which makes it impossible to plan properly for the additional houses, schools, GP surgeries, hospitals and transport infrastructure that we need. That planning takes many years, as we know so well from our debates on housing and the railways.
My noble friend Lord Hodgson, encouraged by several of us, has tried to secure a Lords committee to look at these demographic and immigration issues. That was an excellent idea and just the sort of thing that this House is really good at. Sadly, the House authorities have not yet seen the light.
Amendment 77 proposes a charter and Amendment 78 a new independent office for immigration and demographic change. Another approach would be to give this duty to the ONS or the Office for Budget Responsibility, both of which are full of quantitative experts, although perhaps less dynamic in their thinking than a new body might be. There should also be ministerial overview, which I know works well in areas as diverse as international property, Companies House and the Environment Agency. It allows regular reports to be made to Parliament and questions to be asked, so that we have more transparency.
We are entering a new era, and the UK will be more dependent on our own expertise in planning for the future across the economy and in statistics—and, indeed, in crafting their collection, analysis and presentation. The Government should listen carefully to my noble friend Lord Hodgson.
Baroness Greengross Portrait Baroness Greengross (CB) [V]
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My Lords, I will start by highlighting how immigration is enriching our society. I am totally committed to the cultural and racial diversity that it has made possible. These amendments require the Government to prepare a charter setting out the objectives for EU immigration and to establish an office for demographic change which would examine and report on the impact of the Government’s demographic objectives in relation to immigration. I strongly support these objectives and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, on his extremely important report. The report highlights that the population of the UK has grown by 6.6 million since 2001 and is estimated to grow by another 5.6 million by 2041. Our population is growing by 1,100 people every day and 61% of new migrants are from nations outside the EU.

As chief executive of the International Longevity Centre UK, I contributed to the noble Lord’s Civitas report and highlighted that by 2030 the number of older people in Britain is set to increase by half. The UK faces a situation where there are increased numbers of older workers crowded out of employment due to population increases. There are currently 1 million unemployed people over the age of 50 in the UK. Some 41% of people over 50 have at some stage been unemployed for over 12 months, which is a higher figure than for any other age group. The Government have a strategy to ensure that people can enjoy at least five extra healthy, independent years of life by 2035. Current population growth in the UK puts this strategy at risk, as older people have reduced opportunities for work and income—plus it puts a greater strain on the NHS, as we know, and the other government services required to deliver this strategy.

I spoke at Second Reading of the impact on the social care sector which, like the NHS, relies on immigration to fill vacancies. There are 122,000 vacancies in social care at any one time. Part of developing sustainable demographic objectives for the UK should include having a health and social care system that is not reliant on the immigration system alone in order to function.

These amendments are an opportunity for the UK to set demographic objectives that ensure greater sustainability and maintain a quality of life for the people of the United Kingdom, whatever their age.

Lord Green of Deddington Portrait Lord Green of Deddington (CB) [V]
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My Lords, Amendments 77 and 78 contain an interesting and potentially very valuable idea. I pay tribute to the original thinking that the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, brings to so many of his contributions to this House. I warmly endorse the arguments that he made, ably supported by the noble Lord, Lord Horam, and the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe. I particularly welcome the wider perspective that these amendments bring to the issues surrounding immigration. The detail is always important, but so is the wider perspective, especially when very significant changes are being proposed.

As noble Lords may be aware, I have been closely involved in immigration policy matters for nearly 20 years. I think I am now on my 10th Home Secretary and my 16th Minister of Immigration. An office for immigration and demographic change, which the noble Lord proposes, would bring together the study of the key elements that cross the boundaries of so many Whitehall departments, most of which have departmental interests in higher immigration, rather than lower.

As the noble Lord mentioned, we already have the OBR, which provides a wider framework for economic policy. The Migration Advisory Committee is focused on immigration but, as has been remarked on a number of times in these debates, it comprises mainly economists and is largely focused on economics. It does not, nor is it asked to, take the longer view of the wider impacts that the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, is advocating. The reality is that nobody in government is pulling together the demographic, economic, social and, perhaps, climatic elements that set the frame for the whole future development of our society.

Demography has its own uncertainties, of course. Death rates are fairly stable, but birth rates can change quite rapidly, especially for different groups in our society. But immigration has been, for some years, the key variable. Before the full impact of the Covid crisis became clear, immigration remained close to its highest level in our history. It is now the major factor in our demographic future. For the time being, the Covid crisis has distorted the impact of immigration but, if it were allowed to continue at recent levels, it would have huge consequences for education, health, housing and pensions. Nobody is considering that in an organised way. We need close and co-ordinated consideration of all these aspects, and where it is all leading to. We need to decide whether this is where we want to go and, whatever we decide, how best we can prepare for such a future.

So I commend the noble Lord’s valuable contribution to the immigration debate, and I support his amendments.

Baroness Ludford Portrait Baroness Ludford (LD)
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My Lords, I concede that these amendments have a sincere purpose, but I am not sure that they really work. In Amendment 77, the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, proposes that the Government issue a charter for EU immigration and demographic change, explaining the formulation of their policies on immigration. But the Government can already do this in other ways; indeed, they issued their White Paper on a points-based system a few months ago. The proposed charter would be laid before Parliament, but there is no description of what Parliament would then do. Would it approve, endorse or reject? I also query why the charter would set out demographic objectives only in relation to immigration when other factors are mentioned elsewhere in the two amendments. Of course, the other major factor in demographic change is the birth rate.

Amendment 78 aims to set up a new quango called the office of EU immigration and demographic change. Again, I am not sure why the Government cannot do this work, because it is the Government who issue the charter. It is proposed that the office should report on the impact of the Government’s demographic objectives for EU immigration, but it would be barred from considering the impact of any alternative policies. The noble Lord sought to explain, or justify, that constraint, but it seems to take away something—critiquing the Government’s policy and suggesting alternatives—which could be valuable. Again, no role is specified for Parliament as regards reports from this new office. I cannot in all honesty see the added value of such a body to the duo that we already have—the Migration Advisory Committee and, as the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, mentioned, the Office for National Statistics, which already does population projections. I had a quick look and saw that it did one in October 2019; I do not know when the next one is due. And then there are surely academics on whose work either the MAC or the ONS could draw.

So I will not make the point that these amendments relate to immigration only from the EU, since such an objection would be disingenuous, given that I recognise the constraint imposed by the scope of the Bill. We have been a round that circuit several times in the last few days. I can do no more than say that these amendments, while interesting, do not really fly, for the reasons that I have given.

16:30
Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
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My Lords, Amendment 77, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, and Amendment 78, also in his name, seek to add two new clauses to the Bill. Amendment 77 would require the Secretary of State to publish a document, to be called the

“Charter for EU Immigration and Demographic Change”,


which would explain the policies of the Government and their formulation with respect to immigration from the EU.

I am afraid that when the noble Lord started quoting Lenin, he lost me. I take the view that this amendment is not necessary. The Government have already set out their position with respect to immigration, and he can either agree or disagree with it. I am not persuaded of the benefit or the necessity of the amendment. As I am not supporting Amendment 77, it should be no surprise that I am not supporting Amendment 78 either. It is not necessary and just adds to the cost to the taxpayer.

The case just has not been made for these amendments. We have discussed many amendments during our four days in Committee, and there are many others which we should support: the amendments moved by my noble friend Lord Dubs today and on Monday; those moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, on providing physical documentary proof; and those of the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, on the problems of freelancers working here and in the European Union. These issues need to be addressed in the Bill.

The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, mentioned “trust” in government. I think it is fair to say that the Government have a trust problem. A little bit of advice to the Benches opposite: it is going to get worse and worse, because your communications are dreadful. Not everything can be run out of No. 10—you need motivated civil servants and effective Ministers running departments to deliver the policies of the Government, with the freedom to act and get on with the job without being second-guessed all the time.

There are a number of boils that need lancing; it is quite a long list actually, but I will not go through them all. I think there is an issue with the influence of think tanks on the Government. I am a treasurer of a think tank, the Fabian Society, and it is very clear who funds it. Civitas, however, is one of the opaquest organisations in terms of funding, of who funds who. Maybe the noble Lord can tell us who funds Civitas and who paid for the report—we do not know. We had similar problems with Policy Exchange, the Adam Smith Institute, the Centre for Policy Studies, the Institute of Economic Affairs and the TaxPayers’ Alliance. We do not know who funds these bodies, so it would be interesting to find out.

Does the Minister believe that we live in an overcrowded island? I think that was the challenge posed by the noble Lord, Lord Horam. It would be good to get a response from the Minister on that—yes or no?

There are many other issues. We can talk about industrial productivity, and I would suggest we look at Germany. Germany has much better industrial relations and does great work with its Mittelstand, its small family-owned companies. We have a lot to learn from what goes on in Germany. We also have a housing crisis. I go on about the housing crisis all the time, but I cannot get the Government to talk about social housing; we always talk about affordable housing. Those are issues we need to deal with.

Sadly, although I like the noble Lord very much, I am not with him today on these amendments.

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
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My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts for tabling these amendments, and all noble Lords who have participated in what has been a very interesting and wide-ranging debate. As the noble Viscount, Lord Craigavon, said, it has been a veritable tour d’horizon, taking in Lenin, Solzhenitsyn, Kissinger and the tips of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, on good governance. I am slightly surprised, given the environmental and ecological elements of the amendments, not to have heard from either of the noble Lords from the Green Party, but those have been well covered by other noble Lords.

It is self-evident that immigration has an impact on the demography of a nation, and very clear that ending free movement will therefore mean a demographic change for the UK. The current automatic preference for EEA citizens will cease and, as we deliver a new immigration system that works in the interests of the whole of the UK, it is right that the impacts of immigration arrangements on all aspects of UK life are monitored and reviewed regularly.

In tabling these amendments my noble friend is therefore shining a light on the need for objective, transparent and independent scrutiny of a very important issue, one which does not always get the attention it deserves, as he and my noble friend Lord Horam mentioned. In answer to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, it was a topic that I touched on in my first speech in your Lordships’ House. I refer him back to that for my views.

I could not agree more with my noble friend, and the Government are clear that we will introduce new arrangements in a phased way, monitor any pressures in key sectors and keep labour market data under careful scrutiny. As I have said previously in Committee, that is particularly important when the changes are as significant as the ones we will introduce with our new points-based immigration system.

I can assure noble Lords that the Government have not made decisions in isolation. We have engaged extensively, even during the current pandemic, to build awareness and promote understanding of the new system, ensuring that those affected by the changes are fully aware of what it means for them and understand how it will operate. We have established a series of advisory groups, designed to bring together a wide range of views, to provide critical challenge to our proposals. We have also sought to go beyond the expected impact of the future immigration system in the Bill’s published impact assessment.

However, we recognise that we need to go further than predictions and estimates, or, as my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe mentioned, the published statistics. We need to assess the realities once the system is operating and understand the experiences of those who are using the system, including individual people, employers and educational institutions. However, while the Government are absolutely committed to understanding the impact of those changes, I am afraid I diverge from my noble friend’s view as I do not believe we need a whole new body and process to do that.

The Government have outlined their proposals in two published policy statements, making clear their intention to take back full control of our borders by ending free movement and introducing a single global immigration system, transforming the way in which people from all over the world come to the UK to work, study, visit or join their family. I do not believe the charter proposed in Amendment 77 would make our immigration objectives any clearer.  

Furthermore, in terms of holding the Government to account for the impact of their immigration policies, the Migration Advisory Committee is widely recognised for its expertise and impartiality. I acknowledge the points some noble Lords have made about the MAC’s expertise being focused solely on economics but, again, I must disagree. One of the strengths of the MAC is that it does not represent any one sector or industry; it looks at these things as a whole.

The Migration Advisory Committee is well used to running large-scale consultations. It accumulates evidence from many employers, businesses and sectors to produce carefully considered conclusions which apply to the best interests of the whole United Kingdom. This will not change under the future system. I re-emphasise to noble Lords who have made these points that this Government have expanded the remit of the Migration Advisory Committee. It is no longer constrained to specific government commissions. It now has licence to consider and comment on any aspect of immigration policy, both reactively monitoring trends in the UK labour market and proactively advising the Government about changes to the migration system that it thinks might be necessary.

It would therefore be well within the MAC’s remit to look at the wider view, as the noble Lord, Lord Green of Deddington, put it: the environmental, ecological and societal impacts, as proposed by Amendment 78, as well as economic impacts. To that end, we have asked the MAC to start producing annual reports which cover not only issues such as its budget or staffing but commentary on the operation of the immigration system as a whole. The committee has accepted this challenge and we can look forward to the first such report later this year.

Finally, given the scope of the Bill, these amendments relate only to EU migration. Ending free movement from the EU is our opportunity to introduce a firmer and, more importantly, fairer system, one which applies to EEA and non-EEA citizens alike. Introducing a charter or body which looked only at EU migration would not reflect that system and would run counter to the Government’s intentions. For these reasons, I hope my noble friend will see fit to withdraw his amendments.

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)
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My Lords, I have two requests to speak after the Minister from the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, and the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Portrait Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]
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My Lords, the Minister had clearly not been informed that I was already waiting to ask a question, so I hope this does not come as too much of a shock to him. However, in the interests of clarity in this debate, I am sure he will agree to note the fact that the human ecological footprint is a product of a number of people in an area or nation, or on the globe, multiplied by their consumption level. I am sure he will know that the people of the UK collectively consume our share of three planets’ resources each year, but we have only one planet. Even if we had half the number of people in the UK that we have now, we would greatly exceed the planetary limits.

Can the Minister confirm the Government’s understanding of the essential environmental approach in areas ranging from the climate emergency—noting our special responsibilities as COP26 chair—to the nature crisis and water concerns that we discussed earlier in Oral Questions? The key approach is transforming our currently wasteful, destructive treatment of the planet as a mine and dumping ground, which has produced a miserable, insecure and vulnerable society—as exposed by Covid-19—that exceeds a significant number of planetary boundaries.

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
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It is not a shock but a pleasure to hear from the noble Baroness, and a particular pleasure to agree with what she says about it being not just the level of consumption but the overall number of people that has an ecological impact. That is why I am pleased to be part of a Government who are pursuing our world-leading target of achieving net zero.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I thank the Minister for referring me to his personal views about the overcrowding question. I will look at them but I am also conscious that he was asked a question by the noble Lord, Lord Horam, his noble friend on the Conservative Benches. The Minister is sitting there, and the question was posed to him, as a member of Her Majesty’s Government. We would like to know the Government’s position in respect of whether we live on an overcrowded island—not his personal view, the view of Her Majesty’s Government.

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, this Government are introducing an immigration system that will allow us to have full control over our borders for the first time, so that elected Governments can respond to the views of the people and achieve the level that they say they want to see. I hope all democrats would welcome that.

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)
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My Lords, I have received no further requests to speak after the Minister, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts.

Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts Portrait Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con)
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I thank all who participated in this debate. This was the first time we have taken the car out on the track and I think we got around without a wheel coming off. I am particularly grateful to my noble friends Lord Horam and Lady Neville-Rolfe on the economics, the importance of productivity and the problem of crowding out and to the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross. When I was preparing my pamphlet, I went to see a captain of industry about employing older people. He said “Of course, we are very keen to employ older people”, and I said “Well, let us look at your human resources booklet”. It did not have a person over 30 in it. The way our society looks at people is unfair.

Of course, the noble Lord, Lord Green, has forgotten more about immigration than I will ever know. To the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, I say—without wishing to flog my pamphlet—that there is a map of the ecological footprint of London in it, on which you can see the numbers she referred to. I thought I got half— no, a quarter—of a loaf out of the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford. It was a principled refusal but the car needed a bit of tinkering to get her to come onside.

To the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, I say that we had a classic knockabout. We were all biffed about. I will make one serious point, which is meant to be gentle. If the Labour Party does not get its act together and its policy clear on the issues of people coming to this country, it will not regain the red-wall seats that went blue. People outside the M25 feel passionately about this. How you tackle it is up to his party but just saying “Never mind; it will all be alright” does not, to be honest, sound like a good political strategy.

16:45
I say to my noble friend the Minister that we pray in aid the MAC, which does not know anything about birds, ecology or anything like that but focuses on numbers, as does the ONS—quite rightly, too. We always come back to the fact that the papers go on about immigration. We are trying to lift the argument to talk about more than just numbers. What happens when people get here? What happens to the countryside and our society? We always get back down into the weeds of the numbers.
Finally, on “taking back control”, in the last three years non-EU immigration has gone from 479 to 866 a day. Is that what taking back control is? We have virtually doubled an area of immigration over which the country has always had control. However, this is the first go around the track and I look forward to producing a sleeker car in due course. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 77 withdrawn.
Amendments 78 and 79 not moved.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)
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My Lords, we now come to the group consisting of Amendment 80. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the Clerk during the debate, and anyone wishing to press this amendment to a Division should make that clear in the debate.

Amendment 80

Moved by
80: After Clause 4, insert the following new Clause—
“Protections under the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020
At least three months before the commencement of Part 1 for any purpose, the Secretary of State must publish drafts of such statutory instruments as are proposed to be laid under the powers contained in the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020 to protect the rights of EEA citizens and their family members’ rights of residence, entry and exit until 30 June 2021.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment aims to clarify the rights that would be available to EEA citizens during the ‘grace period’ under the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act.
Baroness Hamwee Portrait Baroness Hamwee (LD) [V]
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To follow the previous speech, this may be the first time we are taking this particular car round the track but I do not think it will be the last, because this amendment is aiming

“to clarify the rights … available to EEA citizens during the ‘grace period’ under”

the recently published SI. It is about the period to the end of June 2021. I say it aims to clarify the issues but it is more about putting some issues on the table. The Minister will be able to say that the amendment is not necessary because we have already done it. I thank her or possibly him—I am peering at a computer screen—for that and for what I saw being called the “bounty” of the recently published draft SIs. I think that was a reference to their length and complexity.

The instrument in question is the draft citizens’ rights (application deadline and temporary protection) (EU exit) regulations 2020. However, I am afraid that the debate now will not be the end of it. After this debate, as well as before it, stakeholders will be grappling with the detail of it and the other published SIs. I do not regard myself as having the knowledge required to appreciate the significance of the modifications to all the provisions listed across the 14 pages of this instrument.

My first question is about the status of the draft, which has been referred to throughout as an “illustrative draft”. What does illustrative mean? Is this simply because draft statutory instruments have a formal status, while this publication has not reached that status?

Exactly who is protected by the grace period provisions? Is it only those exercising treaty rights by the end of 2020, while, for instance, people who are self-sufficient and without comprehensive sickness insurance—what might better be called in this country private health insurance—are not covered? When the 2020 withdrawal Act was going through Parliament, there were clear assurances that everyone eligible for status via the EU settled status scheme would be protected during the grace period. The Minister will appreciate the importance of the issue: protection is not to be withdrawn from those currently eligible otherwise than through treaty rights who have not applied by the end of the year. In previous debates, I raised the importance of information being not just available but actively provided to those who are affected, in the context of who will be applying after next June. If this SI is to restrict applications, the matter is really very urgent.

The Minister, Kevin Foster, said that the regulations would be

“debated and made in good time prior to their entry into force at the end of the transition period.”—[Official Report, Commons, Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill Committee, 16/6/20; col. 191.]

I am sure noble Lords will understand that what is “in good time” for the Home Office could be very last minute for the individuals affected.

Will the Minister comment on one of the draft illustrative regulations? Regulation 7 in Schedule 1 to the 2016 regulations, which this modifies, acknowledges the discretion of member states

“acting within parameters set by the EU Treaties”

in taking a decision conducive to the public good. This discretion will become:

“acting within parameters set by the law, to define its own standards of public policy and public security, for purposes tailored to its individual context from time to time.”

I will not go down the route of saying that this is quite topical, given both the political and politico-legal debate that is going on, but I am sure the Minister will understand that there is a worry about moving the goalposts.

Will the Minister agree to meet parliamentarians if necessary—I understand there is a similar concern in the Commons—and for officials to be able to meet stakeholders, and the legal experts who are advising them, who are considering this draft and the other draft published at the same time? They are concerned, and they need the time. I ask that knowing that there is the opportunity for the Government to withdraw a published draft and reissue it, but it is always much easier, because of how human beings behave—they do not like to be thought to be backing down, and so on—to have the conversations before the final form is published, when it will be that much more difficult to withdraw.

My amendment provides the opportunity to make those requests for what I am sure could be productive discussions with people who are not in the Chamber at the moment and who will have other points they could usefully make. I beg to move.

Lord Rosser Portrait Lord Rosser (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We had a short debate on this issue when we debated Amendment 52, and I raised one or two questions about the draft SI, which, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said, is called the Citizens’ Rights (Application Deadline and Temporary Protection) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020. One of the questions I raised, to which I do not think I had an answer, related to Regulation 13, which states:

“Where any question arises as to whether a person is or was lawfully resident in the United Kingdom at a particular point in time … it is for the individual in question to prove that they were”.


I asked in what situation the Government expect that people would have to prove their ongoing status; how they envisage people will do this, in the sense of what documentation they might need, for example; and, crucially, what support there would be for a person who found themselves in this situation and who might well in fact be perfectly lawfully resident in the United Kingdom.

I share the view that the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, expressed, that we need an opportunity for discussion of the provisions of the draft SI, and that it is a fairly complex process. At this stage, I have two further questions. First, are there any EEA citizens, and their families, resident in the UK by the end of the transition period whose full existing rights are not going to be protected during the grace period through secondary legislation made under the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020? Secondly, will the Minister spell out precisely whose full existing rights are protected by the draft SI?

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Portrait Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
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My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for speaking to her Amendment 80. Its purpose, as she said, is to require the Government to publish draft statutory instruments protecting the rights of EEA citizens who are eligible to apply to the EU settlement scheme but have not done so by the end of the transition period. It concerns, as she said, the statutory instrument that will be made under Section 7 of the EU (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020. As noble Lords are aware, and as the noble Baroness mentioned, my noble friend Lady Williams of Trafford wrote to all noble Lords on 4 September, sharing a copy of this draft statutory instrument together with a copy of the draft regulations to be made under Clause 4 of this Bill.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, asked about the nature of the use of the word “illustrative”. My understanding is that it is used to differentiate from “Draft” with a capital D, which has a formal meaning—so yes, they are illustrative. In making these draft documents available, the Government’s intention is to support your Lordships’ House in its consideration of the Bill. They are also made available to Members in another place and published in the Libraries of both Houses.

The instrument will set the deadline for applications to the EU settlement scheme as 30 June 2021. It will also save relevant existing rights, in relation to residency and access to benefits and services for EEA citizens and their eligible family members who make an application by 30 June 2021, until it is finally determined. This includes pending the outcome of an appeal against any decision to refuse status under the EU settlement scheme. This means that if somebody has not yet applied or been granted status under the EU settlement scheme by the end of the transition period, they can continue to work and live in the UK as they do now, provided they apply by 30 June 2021. The Government will shortly lay this statutory instrument, which will be subject to debate and approval by Parliament and will need to come into force at the end of the transition period.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, asked about CSI. The grace period statutory instrument does not change the eligibility criteria for the EU settlement scheme and those criteria do not include CSI. I can confirm that the Government are not changing the requirements for applications to the EU settlement scheme. The grace period SI maintains CSI as a requirement for lawful residence during the grace period for a student or self-sufficient person under the saved EEA regulations, as is consistent with EU law.

The noble Baroness asked a question on a specific draft statutory instrument. In the interests of brevity and accuracy, I shall write to her about that, as I will on any other questions I have not covered. I am certainly happy to give an undertaking to meet parliamentarians and those who are interested in this issue, so that we can look at it further.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked what documentation people might need. During the grace period, EEA citizens will be able to give evidence of their rights to work and rent property by showing their passport or identity card. If EEA citizens apply for benefits during the grace period, they may need to demonstrate that they were also lawfully resident under the EEA regulations at the end of the transition period, for example that they were employed, which they might demonstrate by providing a wage slip or a letter from their employer. That is a requirement that they must meet now.

As I said, I am happy to write with further answers on the questions that I have not covered but I hope that this gives the noble Baroness the reassurance that she needs to withdraw her amendment.

17:00
Lord Bates Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) (Con)
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I have received no requests to speak after the Minister so I call the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, to respond to the debate on her amendment.

Baroness Hamwee Portrait Baroness Hamwee (LD) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am grateful for that response. Of course, when one is dealing with something so technical, it is difficult to know whether one has thought of the right questions. I am therefore particularly grateful for the Minister’s offer of a meeting.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, mentioned Regulation 13. He asked what support would be given to people who need to prove their position. I marked that and, immediately afterwards, marked the comment at the end of the Explanatory Note that there is no full impact assessment for the instrument

“as no, or no significant, impact on the private, voluntary or public sector is foreseen.”

That made me think of the support that has had to be given to the voluntary sector in particular and the work for others in rolling out and attracting applications for the settled status scheme.

As I said, however, I thank the Minister. I suspect that this is not the end of our discussions on what I hope will not be set in stone until its impact is fully understood by everyone involved and until everyone is satisfied that it is a proper way to approach the matter.

I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 80 withdrawn.
Lord Bates Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Bates) (Con)
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We now come to the group consisting of Amendment 81. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press the amendment to a Division should make that clear in the debate.

Amendment 81

Moved by
81: After Clause 4, insert the following new Clause—
“Requirements before making and amending immigration rules
Prior to making any regulations under subsection 4(1) to amend or create immigration rules the Secretary of State must lay a report before each House of Parliament assessing the impact of the regulations on victims of modern slavery.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would require the Government to publish an assessment of the impact of changes to the Immigration Rules arising from this Bill on victims of modern slavery.
Lord Morrow Portrait Lord Morrow (DUP) [V]
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My Lords, I tabled Amendment 81 because I have real concerns about the proposed arrangements with respect to the end of free movement as they relate to victims of modern slavery. As I stated during the first day of this Committee’s proceedings,

“it is politically unthinkable that we should now stand by and allow an erosion in the rights of victims of modern slavery in this country.”

However, I fear that we are in danger of doing precisely that.

By way of introduction, I should perhaps anticipate the Minister. He made this point in relation to Amendment 7 and might make it again; I hope that my presumption is wrong. He stated that

“the system of identification and support for victims of modern slavery and the legal framework around it go far beyond the scope of the Bill we are debating. Indeed, the most commonly represented nationality among those referred to the national referral mechanism in 2019 was British. It is important to see this as distinct from an immigration issue alone.”—[Official Report, 7/9/20; cols. 618-21.]

It is certainly important for us to recognise the reality of internal trafficking. However, this must not be allowed to obscure the fact that by far the largest number of trafficked persons in the UK are foreign nationals, for whom immigration status is of huge importance. It can be a source of vulnerability that leads them to be exploited; it can affect their rights to services and support; and it can affect the way in which they are dealt with by professionals and the general public. Immigration policy will therefore be of central importance to addressing human trafficking successfully. In this context, I make no apology for my amendment.

Amendment 81 would require that, before making and amending the Immigration Rules to establish the system that will take the place of free movement,

“under subsection 4(1) … the Secretary of State must lay a report before each House of Parliament assessing the impact of the regulations on victims of modern slavery.”

In considering the importance of this provision, we should recall that when the Government announced in February their intention to replace the rights associated with free movement for EEA nationals—including EEA nationals who are victims of modern slavery—with a points-based system, the Independent Anti-slavery Commissioner, Dame Sara Thornton, responded with a warning:

“traffickers will seek every opportunity to abuse new immigration policies and so the protection of vulnerable people needs to be front and centre of the debate.”

The purpose of Amendment 81, which mandates that there should be an assessment of the impact of the new Immigration Rules specifically on victims of modern slavery, is to give effect to the anti-slavery commissioner’s important recommendation that the protection of vulnerable people needs to be at the front and centre of the debate.

One area of concern is what will happen under the new Immigration Rules to a victim of modern slavery who is not British once they have been confirmed as a victim by the national referral mechanism. Under Section 18 of Northern Ireland’s human trafficking and exploitation Act, victims are guaranteed “assistance and support” and, under subsection (9), the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland is able to continue providing support after a positive conclusive grounds decision where it deems it necessary. However, the Northern Ireland Executive have no power to grant immigration leave to victims to enable them to remain in the UK even if they deem that support necessary.

At the moment, many victims who are EEA nationals, including confirmed victims of modern slavery, are able to stay in Northern Ireland and the wider UK under free movement rights, thus enabling them to access regular benefits and statutory services, to work and to study, and potentially to receive additional trafficking support from our Department of Justice on a discretionary basis as they continue their recovery. However, once free movement comes to an end, EEA nationals newly arriving in the UK will no longer have the right to live and work in any part of the UK, including Northern Ireland, unless they have relevant skills and are sponsored by an employer to get a highly skilled worker visa, which is unlikely to be the case for victims of slavery. Nor will they have recourse to public funds to access benefits and services that will help them in their recovery beyond the immediate crisis period of the NRM.

At Second Reading, I mentioned the Centre for Social Justice’s timely report, It Still Happens Here: Fighting UK Slavery in the 2020s, which was published in July. It states:

“For many, having no recourse to public funds poses further barriers to moving people on safely, putting victims at risk of homelessness and destitution, and making it more likely that they will fall back into exploitation and trafficking.”


Rather than responding to this key finding by extending access to recourse to public funds, it seems that we are about to remove the key provision from some victims of human trafficking that is central to victim recovery. Providing victims with secure immigration status and recourse to public funds is not simply a means to support their recovery; rather, it is also a vital measure to prevent them being retrafficked in the future.

The only option for a victim who arrives in the UK after 1 January to secure the right to remain in the UK and to access publicly funded benefits and services will be to apply for discretionary leave to remain, known as DLR, since EEA nationals are unlikely to be granted asylum. But, unlike victims from other countries, EEA nationals are not currently automatically considered for DLR. They have to make their own applications.

There are two significant additional problems with DLR. First, applying takes time, during which confirmed victims are vulnerable to destitution and re-trafficking. Secondly, to date only a very small proportion of confirmed victims of modern slavery have been granted DLR, with the attached access to public funds and support needed for their recovery, because it is available only in limited and defined circumstances. Deciding to depend on DLR in this knowledge, therefore, would be tantamount to voting to erode support for confirmed victims of modern slavery.

I am not opposed to the end of free movement. We have to give effect to that in order to honour the outcome of the referendum. However, it absolutely does not follow that we have to create a situation in which a significant proportion of trafficking victims have uncertain immigration status and will lose recourse to public funds. I can only assume that the failure to put in place clear and accessible alternative routes for EEA nationals to remain in the UK with public funds for a period of recovery beyond the NRM results from the absence of any formal requirement to assess the impact of the wide-reaching changes to free movement on this specific and particularly vulnerable group.

We must ensure that any future changes to the DLR system serve to make it more accessible for EEA nationals, and that the full impact on victims of modern slavery is assessed, which is why I introduced Amendment 81. As well as seeking to assess the impact of immigration rules on victims after they have escaped their exploitation, it seeks to provide an opportunity for scrutiny of how immigration rules may protect people, or inadvertently put them at risk of trafficking.

In this context, I raise the issue of temporary migration routes such as the seasonal workers pilot scheme, which has been running since last year. A report published last year by the International Organization for Migration, Migrants and their Vulnerability to Human Trafficking, Modern Slavery and Forced Labour, found:

“Restrictive immigration policies (such as restrictions applied to certain visas or arbitrary changes to asylum procedures for nationals from certain countries) and weak migration governance structures are frequently noted as major causes of vulnerability to modern slavery, especially when combined with low-wage migration.”


Elsewhere, the report says that

“migrants whose visas are tied to a specific employer are also at higher risk of exploitation.”

Experts in labour exploitation, such as Focus on Labour Exploitation, have cautioned that temporary migration schemes are

“well-recognised to increase the risks of abuse and exploitation of workers”.

In July the Government published a document called UK Points-Based Immigration System: Further Details Statement, which includes the following text:

“As we replace freedom of movement with the Points-Based System, we remain committed to protecting individuals from modern slavery and exploitation by criminal traffickers and unscrupulous employers.”


I welcome the Government’s statement, but sadly it reads as pure assertion. It does not demonstrate any kind of means to secure this end. I very much hope that the Minister will appreciate how, in the context of the proposed removal of a route to protection from re-trafficking offered by remaining in the UK and having recourse to public funds, and without a guarantee of a safe route for migration for EEA nationals who do not qualify for the skilled worker scheme, this assertion, divorced from any delivery mechanism, is vulnerable to seeming profoundly disingenuous.

17:15
Amendment 81 is of central importance to delivering on the recommendation of the Anti-Slavery Commissioner. In the first instance, its presence would help to protect against regulations being passed that make the situation facing EEA nationals who are victims of human trafficking even worse than it will already be from 1 January 2021, compared with how it is today. In the second instance, I very much hope that knowledge of its presence would create an incentive for the Government proactively to develop immigration rules that positively help victims of human trafficking and will prevent trafficking and exploitation occurring in the first place.
The only other way to avoid this dilemma, which would have the added attraction of improving the rights not only of victims of modern slavery who are EEA nationals, but of victims of modern slavery from Britain and all other parts of the world, would be for the Government to recognise that, as I said on 7 September, the Bill sponsored by the former Conservative Party leader Iain Duncan Smith and the noble Lord, Lord McColl, is a Bill whose time has come. Putting into domestic law the right of victims of modern slavery to access support and benefits for a period of recovery in the UK during and after the NRM would demonstrate that, rather than Brexit being allowed to become an opportunity for the erosion of the rights of the most vulnerable, it is about using our sovereignty to enhance their rights and renew our identity as a country that has, since the great Wilberforce, led the way in combating slavery. It would thus, in many ways, make impact assessments under Amendment 81 unnecessary. Were the Minister to give an assurance of support for that Bill, I would be happy to set my amendment to one side. I look forward to his response, and to hearing what others contribute to the debate.
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown Portrait Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP) [V]
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My Lords, I am pleased to support Amendment 81 in the name of my noble friend Lord Morrow. During our consideration of the Bill we have heard a great deal about the impact of the shape of immigration rules on confirmed victims of modern slavery. I share the concerns articulated by other noble Lords about not permitting the changes to the immigration system to leave victims with fewer rights to remain, or more restricted access to services and support than is currently available.

This country has a proud history of providing asylum, refuge and protection to vulnerable people, and ending freedom of movement is not meant to pull the rug out from underneath vulnerable victims of modern slavery. That is not what the public voted for, and I urge the Minister to reflect urgently with colleagues on what can be put in place before the end of the year to ensure that rights to remain in the UK for a minimum of 12 months to receive support beyond the NRM, including the opportunity to engage in work and study, will be made available to victims of modern slavery from EEA countries.

In the specific context of Amendment 81, in July the Government published a 130-page document called UK Points-Based Immigration System: Further Details Statement. Paragraph 3 on page 11, under the heading “Principles of the Points-Based System”, says:

“As we replace freedom of movement with the Points-Based System, we remain committed to protecting individuals from modern slavery and exploitation by criminal traffickers and unscrupulous employers.”


That is a noble commitment, but it rings rather hollow in the absence of a delivery mechanism, which is why Amendment 81 is, as I will argue, of such strategic importance.

The need for a delivery mechanism is highlighted by the implication of the 2018 figures from Northern Ireland’s Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, which show that one-fifth of agricultural workers in the Province are from countries outside the UK and Ireland, and most come from the EU. Some 15% of the agriculture businesses surveyed employ seasonal migrant workers. Agriculture is, unfortunately, already well known to be a risk sector for human trafficking, and the combination of a change to the rules around recruiting migrant workers with those existing risks cannot be ignored.

A report published by the International Organization for Migration last year, Migrants and their Vulnerability to Human Trafficking, Modern Slavery and Forced Labour, found that:

“Restrictive immigration policies (such as restrictions applied to certain visas or arbitrary changes to asylum procedures for nationals from certain countries) and weak migration governance structures are frequently noted as major causes of vulnerability to modern slavery, especially when combined with low-wage migration”,


and that,

“migrants whose visas are tied to a specific employer are also at higher risk of exploitation”.

In this context, it comes as no surprise to me that the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, who has huge experience in dealing with modern slavery issues, having developed, introduced and successfully taken through Stormont what is now known as the human trafficking and exploitation Act, has brought forward the amendment to provide the requisite delivery mechanism. I very much hope that the Government will accept it.

I urge the Government, further to this debate and that on Amendment 7, to prevent the integrity of the Brexit protocols being tarnished by allowing 1 January 2021 to become a day on which the rights of victims of modern slavery and some of the most vulnerable members of our society are eroded. The best way in which to get ahead of the game and demonstrate that, far from being about a race to the bottom, Brexit is about using our sovereignty to generate better laws, would be to adopt the Modern Slavery (Victim Support) Bill in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McColl, and the right honourable Sir Iain Duncan Smith. I urge the Government to adopt not merely the amendment but that Bill without delay.

Lord Alton of Liverpool Portrait Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
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My Lords, I am pleased to speak in support of the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, who has done such heroic work, both here and in the Northern Ireland Assembly, in championing the rights of people who are being trafficked. I endorse everything that the noble Lord, Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown, has said.

I should declare that I am a trustee of the anti-trafficking charity the Arise Foundation, which focuses on prevention of trafficking in source countries and has seen a huge increase in vulnerability, due to lack of available work during the Covid pandemic. When ready for publication, I suspect that we will see a substantial increase in trafficking numbers. Has the Minister seen any harbingers or indicators of that?

Undoubtedly, from the reports being received by Arise, Covid has had a devastating effect on heightening vulnerability in source countries, making it more likely that people will be at risk of making unsafe journeys. That is even more reason to incorporate the amendment. I also remind the Minister of the remarks I read into Hansard last week from the former independent commissioner on human trafficking, Kevin Hyland.

I am greatly concerned that, as things stand, when proposed changes to immigration law come into effect on 1 January 2021, they will diminish the rights of victims of modern slavery, and the amendment would help to prevent that from happening. Whereas today EEA nationals who are victims of modern slavery are able to remain in the UK, accessing a variety of publicly funded benefits and employment opportunities to help them recover, they will lose this in the same way as EEA nationals who are not victims of modern slavery. Nothing comparable is being put in its place. Their only hope is to apply for discretionary leave to remain, but we know that in practice very few victims receive such grants of leave—about 12%. Perhaps the noble Baroness can confirm that.

Then I see from reading the Government’s response to Amendment 7 that, although they have committed not to, in effect, directly knock out rights from the EU anti-trafficking directive that are part of EU retained law, they cannot tell us whether all the rights currently available to victims will be part of EU retained law. The Government have a chance again to do that this evening. Unless they do so, this will continue to engender fear that 1 January 2021 will usher in the end of some effective rights of victims of modern slavery.

That would be particularly tragic for the Government because they can take great credit for passing the Modern Slavery Act 2015. I was happy to have been a participant in those proceedings. Of course, that legislation came forward only because of the work of the then Home Secretary, Theresa May. It is a permanent and lasting legacy and achievement of hers and of both Houses, working with one another across the political divide. I would be deeply saddened if I thought that anything we were doing now would in any way diminish the importance and effectiveness of that legislation.

As the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, has said, one of the arguments advanced by those in favour of leaving the European Union, was that the UK would now have the option of not merely maintaining EU standards but going beyond them. Here is an opportunity to test that proposition. The Government could and should go further by urgently adopting the Modern Slavery (Victim Support) Bill sponsored by the noble Lord, Lord McColl of Dulwich, and the former Conservative Party leader, Iain Duncan Smith.

In the time available to me, however, I want particularly to comment on the value of the amendment from the perspective of preventing human trafficking. I should like to pursue a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, about ensuring that the arrangements not only for the skilled worker visa but other migration routes will clearly set out how the Government intend to prevent human trafficking and exploitation and contain appropriate safeguards to avoid those routes being manipulated by traffickers.

I welcome the Government’s inclusion of protecting people from modern slavery in the three guiding principles for the points-based system set out in the further details statement published in July. The fact that the whole approach to immigration is underpinned by three foundational principles, and that one of those principles is concerned with combating trafficking, suggests that combating trafficking is important. But where is the delivery mechanism? That was a point made effectively by the two noble Lords who preceded me. I commend the amendment to the Minister as an example of the sort of mechanism that needs to be put in place in order to fulfil the aspirations of that principle.

Of course, not all migrant workers are vulnerable to modern slavery—a point made by the Minister rightly made from the Dispatch Box. Indeed, those who are the most highly paid are unlikely to be caught in exploitation; but even for skilled and well paid migrants it is important that checks and processes are put in place to ensure that those recruiting people from overseas are reputable, subject to scrutiny and abide by all labour regulations. The noble Baroness rightly reinforced that in our earlier debates.

Most at risk, though, are likely to be those who fall outside the skilled worker points-based programme—those who will participate in other temporary migration routes such as youth mobility schemes or seasonal worker schemes or those who may be recruited to work illegally spring to mind. The Government’s policy statement about the points-based system in February said:

“We will not introduce a general low-skilled or temporary work route. We need to shift the focus of our economy away from a reliance on cheap labour from Europe and instead concentrate on investment in technology and automation. Employers will need to adjust.”


I am very concerned that some of the ways in which unscrupulous employers will adjust will include the exploitation of undocumented workers and it is worrying that that the Government do not seem to have taken account of that risk. I look forward to hearing what the noble Baroness says on that in her reply.

I support the amendment because it will mean that, as the building blocks of the new immigration system are put in place through regulations under Clause 4, the Government will be required to assess the impact of that system on victims of modern slavery, and I hope, the way in which the system can prevent modern slavery from happening at all.

I was struck by research published in 2019 by the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights, which looked at labour exploitation of adult migrants in eight European Union states and found that

“vulnerability linked to residence status is the most important risk factor causing or contributing to labour exploitation”.

17:30
In 2017 the Labour Exploitation Advisory Group warned that an approach to immigration targeted at reducing low-wage or low-skilled migration presents
“a key risk as, in low-skilled sections of the labour market where demand for cheap and temporary labour is greatest, migrant workers are already highly vulnerable to abuse. Demand for labour in these sectors is unlikely to decrease, meaning that positions may be filled by undocumented workers or those working in breach of visa conditions, who are at even greater risk of severe exploitation due to insecure status.”
I urge the Government to look again at the need for a safe and approved route for migrant labour to enter low-wage sectors. However, in doing so, the Government must consider how the structure of those schemes would facilitate or prevent modern day slavery.
Noble Lords will recall our many debates during and following the passage of the Modern Slavery Act regarding the risks of trafficking and exploitation of domestic migrant workers resulting from restrictions within the special overseas domestic worker visa. It was an issue on which—as I think the noble Lord, Lord Bates, who is on the Woolsack today, will recall—I divided the House. The risks that I and others identified included the inability of a worker to change their employer. We must take care that these harmful restrictions that have already been identified in relation to one sector are not replicated in the new immigration routes and system that will be formed through regulations made under Clause 4. Amendment 81 will help in that process.
The Government have already made a commitment to ensure that the points-based immigration system will protect individuals from modern slavery and exploitation. I commend them for that, but they must do more than make statements of aspiration in policy papers. They must make sure that rules, infrastructure and processes surrounding all migration routes will act to prevent modern slavery.
Amendment 81 provides a means for assessing whether each facet of the new immigration system meets this commitment to prevent trafficking and, crucially, allows Parliament to scrutinise the assessment. It will ensure that the risks to the most vulnerable of all workers are considered at the outset of developing new immigration policies and provides a way for the Government to put flesh on the bones of their July policy statement commitment to protecting individuals from modern slavery. For all those reasons, I commend Amendment 81 to the Committee.
Lord McColl of Dulwich Portrait Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con) [V]
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My Lords, I speak in support of Amendment 81 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Morrow. The noble Lord is to be commended for the work he did in the Northern Ireland Assembly to bring about new legislation on human trafficking and modern slavery. In particular, I greatly admire his determination that his legislation should include measures to protect and support victims, something that is sadly lacking in our Modern Slavery Act for victims in England and Wales.

I support Amendment 81 to ensure that any future changes that are made to the Immigration Rules using the powers in Clause 4 should be assessed for their impact on victims of modern slavery, in large part because it appears to me that, thus far, there has been insufficient consideration of the impact of the changes to the immigration system on victims of modern slavery.

As I said on Day 1 in Committee, any changes as part of the Brexit process that result in victims of modern slavery having fewer protections than they had prior to 1 January 2021

“would damage the integrity of the Brexit project in a way that is unthinkable.”—[Official Report, 7/9/20; col. 615.]

In introducing this important amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, spoke very movingly of how changes to free movement could lead to more exploitation for potential victims of trafficking, unless the Government are proactive in addressing this issue. It is indeed ironic that the current proposal means that a significant portion of EEA nationals who are victims of modern slavery would lose access to the very thing that, as recently as July this year, the Centre for Social Justice pointed out is of central importance to victims’ recovery, namely recourse to public funds.

In approaching Amendment 81 and the concern about the erosion of the rights of victims of trafficking on 1 January 2021, it is important to pick up the issue by reflecting on the Minister’s response to my Amendment 7, which addressed concern about the loss of rights on 1 January 2021. That response will help us to see the true significance of Amendment 81, for reasons that I shall explain.

In his response to that amendment, the Minister made it plain that the Government are unable to say precisely which directly effective rights under the anti-trafficking directive will be retained as part of domestic law and which will be lost on 1 January. On reading Hansard, I now recognise—contrary to what I said in response at the time—that this means it is still entirely possible that on 1 January there will be a reduction in the number of directly effective rights available to confirmed victims of human trafficking in the United Kingdom. I find it disturbing that the Government should acknowledge the fact that, in some respects, the rights of victims may be lost in such a way when we could use our sovereignty to ensure that there is no loss of rights.

Amendment 81 would help us to avoid such a situation in future by requiring the Government to make a specific assessment of the impact on victims of modern slavery of any further changes to the Immigration Rules. This will simply provide a check on the development of future regulations that might make the present situation worse. Knowledge that any such regulations will be checked against this standard—namely that they should not undermine the rights of victims of trafficking—creates a positive incentive proactively to develop legislation in favour of the best interests of victims of human trafficking. Indeed, subjecting ourselves to this discipline would give particular legitimacy to efforts to develop regulations that will offset some of the negative consequences of what will otherwise happen to victims of modern slavery on 1 January 2021.

In the absence of Amendment 81, it is as yet unclear what immigration status will be available to victims of modern slavery from the EEA and what access they will have to benefits, housing and other support services once they have exited the NRM. Unless they are among the lucky few to be granted discretionary leave, it seems likely that they will no longer have the access to these services that they have today. In 2015, just 12% of victims were given this special discretionary leave to remain. Unfortunately, despite submitting a Written Question in March, I have been unable to obtain up-to-date statistics from the Home Office.

I have also been advised that in the next few months there is something of an impossible choice for victims of modern slavery as to whether to apply for pre-settled status, which may in the long run provide greater support but in the short term does not give full access to benefits and other services and can prevent them being able to apply for special discretionary leave. It is these sorts of negative consequences that Amendment 81 seeks to avoid, which is why it has my support.

Rather than viewing the present situation as a great problem, we should see it as an opportunity. I encourage us to look beyond merely identifying risks and seek to set a bold new direction for supporting victims of modern slavery. The Government have the opportunity to inaugurate the post-Brexit era by asking Parliament to use its sovereignty to create a legal framework whereby we reject the possibility of victims having lesser legal protections than they do today—and indeed the notion that we should simply ensure that the legal rights of victims under Brexit are identical to the legal rights under the EU—and to enhance the rights of confirmed victims by adopting the Modern Slavery (Victim Support) Bill that I sponsored with the right honourable Sir Iain Duncan Smith.

This Bill, which amends the Modern Slavery Act, is particularly important in the context of England and Wales, for which there is no statutory obligation in the Act to provide support for victims. Among other things, it is developed to prevent retrafficking and to foster an environment that makes it easier for victims to give evidence in court, in the interests of increasing convictions. The Bill offers all confirmed victims in England and Wales a minimum of 12 months’ support to help them rebuild their lives.

This would demonstrate that Brexit is something with a moral purpose, something of which we can be proud and that enables us to shape the future and lead the world, in line with previous expressions of our sovereignty in abolishing the transatlantic slave trade in 1807 and slavery itself in 1833—achievements that have been generative of modern British identity.

Rather than viewing the present situation as a great problem, we should see it as an opportunity. I encourage us to look beyond merely identifying risks and seek to set a bold new direction for supporting victims of modern slavery. The Government have the opportunity to inaugurate the post-Brexit era by asking Parliament to use its sovereignty to create a legal framework whereby we reject the possibility of victims having lesser legal protections than they do today—and indeed the notion that we should simply ensure that the legal rights of victims under Brexit are identical to the legal rights under the EU—and to enhance the rights of confirmed victims by adopting the Modern Slavery (Victim Support) Bill.

My Bill passed very quickly through this House in the last Parliament with the help of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, who was a tremendous support. There is no reason why it should not do so again and pass through the Commons, if the Government seize this strategic opportunity that now presents itself. I hope that at the very least, the Government might agree to meet me and Sir Iain to discuss the Bill’s merits in the context of what will otherwise happen to victims of modern slavery on 1 January.

Lord Randall of Uxbridge Portrait Lord Randall of Uxbridge (Con) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I first repeat my interest in the register as a vice-chairman of trustees of the Human Trafficking Foundation. I support Amendment 81 and commend the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, on bringing it forward and on his work on anti-trafficking and modern slavery, as we have heard. I think I read somewhere that it was hearing of the plight of a Romanian woman that set the noble Lord out on this admirable path. Similarly, every time I meet victims or survivors, it just makes me want to do more to help their lot; I believe that is not an uncommon experience. I also commend the noble Lords, Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown and Lord Alton of Liverpool, and my noble friend Lord McColl of Dulwich on their speeches. I particularly congratulate my noble friend Lord McColl and commend his excellent Private Member’s Modern Slavery (Victim Support) Bill, which we have heard about. I hope the Government can find time for his Bill or, even better, absorb it into a government Bill.

17:45
I am delighted to support Amendment 81, as it is an opportunity to raise again how different the position of EEA nationals will be after 1 January 2021 and to clarify Her Majesty’s Government’s position. In this context, as freedom of movement is replaced with a points-based system, the Government rather unfortunately and naively assert that
“we remain committed to protecting individuals from modern slavery and exploitation by criminal traffickers and unscrupulous employers”—
a noble thing to say. But the Government must explain what actions they will take to give expression to this commitment and thereby ensure that the ending of free movement and the consequential change in immigration status for confirmed victims of modern slavery who are EEA nationals does not lead to increased exploitation. I hope the Government can state clearly that there will be an automatic consideration of discretionary leave to remain for EEA nationals who are confirmed victims of modern slavery.
Sadly, despite our taking back control of our borders and the excellent work of our law enforcement agencies, there will still be good numbers of poor unfortunates trafficked and forced into modern slavery. This amendment asks Her Majesty’s Government only for an assessment of the impact. Perhaps my noble friend might like to consider that William Wilberforce lived for a time in Uxbridge. I am sure that the current MP for that place, my home town, will be keen to ensure that this Government do not ignore the potential for improving the lot of the victims of modern slavery. Let us at least ensure that they will not be forced back to face their traffickers and suffer the same fate again.
Baroness Hamwee Portrait Baroness Hamwee (LD) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, one noble Lord said that the Private Member’s Bill from the noble Lord, Lord McColl, is one whose time has come; I think it came quite some while ago.

During the debate on the first amendment today we talked about humanity, and this is a matter of humanity as well. It is about practice as well as law. Some victims will be desperate to get back home, which is a problem for prosecutors. Others will want to stay. Others will need quite a while to sort out what they want to do, and they will need to assess their status. That is only one situation of many and only one example of how immigration and slavery issues coincide.

I do not want to take up the Committee’s time by repeating what so many noble Lords, who have all spent a great deal of time considering modern slavery and doing their very best to fight it in all sorts of ways, have said. The Minister will tell us whether it is necessary, technically and otherwise. I take the view that the problems of slavery should be a consideration across the whole of the legislative front. The 2015 Act needs to be kept under constant review, because as the weeks go by, we learn more about the abhorrent situation and the plight of individuals caught up in it.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Portrait Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I fully support Amendment 81 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Morrow. Like others, I pay tribute to him for his work in the Northern Ireland Assembly, and in your Lordships’ House, combating the evil of modern slavery and human trafficking.

The noble Lord made a very compelling case for the Government to agree to his amendment today, and I do hope the Minister will be able to give us some hope that the Government will meet the issue that the noble Lord addressed the House on. I equally agree with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown, and again commend the work he has done on combating modern slavery.

The new clause, as we have heard, seeks to ensure that proper consideration is given to the impact of the new regulations on the victims of modern slavery and human trafficking. It is most important that we consider the effect on victims that these changes will make. That is really very important. As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, said, rules, regulations, processes and overdue immigration procedures must work to prevent modern slavery and human trafficking and, obviously, not weaken the position at present.

The noble Lord, Lord McColl of Dulwich, again referred to the anti-trafficking directive, and the risk of what is going to be lost on 1 January. I do hope the Minister will address that. It is a huge concern, for many noble Lords, that at any point next year we will find ourselves with weaker provisions and weaker laws that will benefit only criminals and criminal gangs, and really harm victims.

Finally, I want to pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord McColl of Dulwich, for all his work. It is high time that the Government stood up and backed the noble Lord. His Private Member’s Bill is absolutely right: all he is asking for is that England and Wales have the same provisions that endure in Northern Ireland and Scotland. The Bill sailed through this House, but then what happened to it? It crashed on the rocks in the other place. The Government did nothing to support it last time, and it is wrong. The Government really should stand up now and back the noble Lord on his Bill.

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I will start by assuring the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, that I am not going to trot out the line that he suspects I am. Moreover, I will actually thank him for his contribution to this incredibly important debate, and for his continued commitment to the really important objective of ensuring the impacts on victims of modern slavery are considered in changes to the Immigration Rules following this Bill.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said an interesting thing just before she closed, which is that we should consider modern-day slavery across legislation. I think it is absolutely crucial that we consider it across government, because it affects and infects almost every aspect of modern-day life. Noble Lords mentioned William Wilberforce, who is actually one of my heroes. It is over 200 years since we abolished slavery, and yet we have the terrible blight of modern-day slavery in our society. We are committed to tackling this terrible crime. We are now identifying more victims of modern-day slavery and doing more to bring perpetrators to justice than ever before. I will just say to the noble Lords, Lord McColl and Lord Kennedy, that there is going to be no diminution in directly affected rights.

We will replace freedom of movement with a points-based system. We remain committed to protecting individuals from modern slavery and exploitation by criminal traffickers and unscrupulous employers. I will not answer the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, because I cannot. Has there been an increase in trafficking during Covid? I think we can all safely say is that there has been an increase in a lot of behind the scenes-type activity that is unpalatable to us all, including things such as domestic violence. I am sure that will reveal itself as time goes on.

We are definitely committed to considering the impact of our policies on vulnerable people, including by fulfilling our public sector equality duties under Section 149 of the Equality Act 2010. As the noble Lord, Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown, said, on 13 July we published an equalities impact assessment on the points-based system, which considers the impact of our policy on protected characteristics. To answer the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, I can send that to him if he wishes. We will continue to iterate this document. Our work ensures that we keep at the forefront of our minds the potential consequences of our policies on those who may be susceptible to exploitation.

Across the board, it is crucial that we understand the groups and communities affected by our policies. As the Home Secretary highlighted in her Statement to the House on Wendy Williams’s Windrush Lessons Learned Review on 21 July, she has set out clear expectations that she expects officials to engage with community organisations, civil society and the public and to provide evidence in all advice to Ministers. To answer the noble Lord, Lord McColl, who asked if I would meet him: of course I will meet him to discuss his Private Member’s Bill.

Through the Home Office’s advisory groups, we have undertaken engagement with organisations on the design and development of the future immigration system, including those representing potentially vulnerable individuals. These groups, which include experts on modern slavery, including the Independent Anti-Slavery Commissioner, have been fundamental in helping us to shape our policies and to design the future system. I understand that the Home Secretary has asked officials to facilitate a dedicated session with members of the Vulnerability Advisory Group and experts from the modern slavery sector, to better understand the possible impacts of the new immigration system on potential victims of modern slavery.

The noble Lords, Lord Morrow and Lord Alton, asked me about the seasonal workers pilot. A key objective of the pilot is to ensure that migrant workers are adequately protected against modern slavery and other labour abuses. It requires operators to ensure that all workers have a safe working environment—I think he alluded to that—that they are treated fairly, paid properly including time off and breaks; that they are housed in safe, hygienic accommodation; that their passport is never withheld from them; and that robust systems are in place for the reporting of concerns and rapid action. The operators of the scheme are and must remain licensed by the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority.

In addition, the Home Office and Defra also monitor the scheme closely to ensure that operators adhere to the stringent requirements set out for ensuring the safety and well-being of seasonal workers. We work with the sector, including the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority, to achieve these aims. Should either of the selected operators fall short in their duties as a sponsor, action will be taken, up to and including the revocation of their sponsor licence. Other criminal sanctions will be considered as well, as appropriate.

The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, asked me what the Government were doing to ensure that EU exit does not adversely affect efforts to tackle modern slavery. We already exceed our international obligations to victims under the Council of Europe Convention on Action Against Trafficking in Human Beings, which will not be affected by EU exit. We will continue our work with European partners to eradicate modern slavery, no matter what shape our relationship with the EU takes. This is an international problem, not just a UK problem, and it is in everyone’s interest that we reach an agreement that equips operational partners on both sides with those capabilities that help protect citizens and bring criminals to justice.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord McColl, questioned pre-settled status in terms of the right to benefits. Pre-settled status maintains the right to benefits, and a person would not need discretionary leave to remain under the modern slavery provisions because they would have five years’ leave to remain.

I hope that those explanations satisfy noble Lords and that the noble Lord will be happy to withdraw his amendment.

18:00
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I have no requests to speak after the Minister, so I now call the noble Lord, Lord Morrow.

Lord Morrow Portrait Lord Morrow (DUP) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I am very grateful to all those who have taken part in this debate. I am also grateful to the Minister. I have listened very carefully to all that she has said but I am afraid that I remain very concerned on two fronts: first, the absence of a discipline to ensure that, going forward, the Immigration Rules will be forged out of regard for the need both to minimise opportunities for people trafficking and to help those who have been trafficked to enjoy a full recovery; and, secondly, that at the moment there is a real risk that victims of modern slavery will experience an erosion of their effective rights from 1 January. I do not believe that this is a satisfactory state of affairs.

However, as I said, I listened carefully to what the Minister said but will go away and study her comments more carefully before deciding how best to proceed on this issue. For the moment, therefore, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 81 withdrawn.
Amendment 82 not moved.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

We now come to the group consisting of Amendment 82A. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate and that anyone wishing to press this amendment to a Division should make that clear in the debate.

Amendment 82A

Moved by
82A: After Clause 4, insert the following new Clause—
“Family life
(1) This section applies when a court or tribunal is required to determine whether a decision made under the Immigration Acts in respect of a relevant person—(a) breaches a person’s right to respect for private and family life under Article 8; and(b) as a result would be unlawful under section 6 of the Human Rights Act 1998.(2) In subsection (1) a “relevant person” is—(a) any person who, immediately before the commencement of Schedule 1, was—(i) residing in the United Kingdom in accordance with the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2016;(ii) residing in the United Kingdom in accordance with a right conferred by or under any of the other enactments which is repealed by Schedule 1;(iii) otherwise residing in the United Kingdom in accordance with any right derived from European Union law which continues, or immediately before the commencement of Schedule 1 continued, by virtue of section 4 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 to be recognised and available in the United Kingdom; and(b) any other person within the scope of regulations under sections 4(1) and (4).(3) In a case to which this section applies, section 117C of the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 shall be read subject to the following modifications.(4) Section 117C(5) shall be read as if the words “and the effect of C’s deportation on the partner or child would be unduly harsh” were replaced with “and either—(a) the effect of C’s deportation on the partner would be unduly harsh; or(b) it would be unreasonable for the child to leave the UK or to remain in the UK without C.”(5) Section 117C(6) shall be read as if—(a) the word “(“C”)” were inserted after “foreign criminal” and(b) the words “there are very compelling circumstances, over and above those described in Exceptions 1 and 2” were replaced with “either—(i) C has a genuine and subsisting parental relationship with a qualifying child and it would be unreasonable for the child to leave the UK or to remain in the UK without C; or(ii) there are very compelling circumstances, over and above those described in exceptions 1 and 2””Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause modifies the threshold for deportation of EEA nationals and family members who are parents of “qualifying children” – children who are British or have lived in the UK for 7 years or more.
Baroness Hamwee Portrait Baroness Hamwee (LD) [V]
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My Lords, EEA nationals and their family members will of course be made subject to the system of immigration control when free movement ends. That will affect those who face removal from the UK on the basis of their character or conduct, including any criminal record. The tests for the deportation of EEA nationals and their family members are currently more stringent than those for the deportation of third-country family members of British nationals and settled persons.

Those who have not raised protection claims and meet the deportation criteria, and who want to remain in the UK on family life or private life grounds, must satisfy one of two exceptions. Either they must prove that they have

“a genuine and subsisting relationship with a qualifying partner or a genuine and subsisting parental relationship with a qualifying child”

who would experience the deportation as “unduly harsh”. Those sentenced to four years or more must show very compelling circumstances—a higher threshold than that.

The Home Office interprets “unduly harsh” as excessively cruel. In the case of KO, the Supreme Court found that, to meet the test, mothers and fathers facing deportation must demonstrate that separation from their children would involve

“a degree of harshness going beyond what would necessarily be involved for any child faced with the deportation of a parent.”

In the subsequent cases of PG and KF, the courts held that most children who have a parent facing deportation would be likely to suffer significant psychological trauma, so that to succeed in their appeal the parent would have to show a risk of harm beyond what would normally be expected. The court in the case of PG expressed great sympathy for the children but said that distress to innocent children is insufficient to prevent deportation.

That means, in effect, that the courts are obliged to accept that harshness or cruelty caused to a child is acceptable—or, at any rate, has to be accepted—even where the long-term harm and trauma caused to the child, their family and the community may be detrimental to society at large and therefore not in the public interest.

Unlike a criminal sentence when a parent is sentenced to imprisonment, deportation can effectively end a child’s family life with a parent for the whole of their childhood. The permanent ending of family life can have a long-term negative impact. I do not need to describe that in detail to noble Lords. The partner left in the UK effectively becomes a single parent with all the struggles that involves. Perhaps it is a rhetorical question, but how can this be reconciled with the duty under Section 55 of the Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009 to have

“regard to the need to safeguard and promote the welfare of children who are in the United Kingdom”?

Despite the Home Office’s statutory duty to safeguard and promote the welfare of children and have children’s best interests as a primary consideration, the Home Office does not record the number of families it separates through deportation. We have had plenty of debates in this House about the importance of data. In 2018, Stephen Shaw, whose reviews have been so powerful, said:

“I find the policy of removing individuals brought up here from infancy to be deeply troubling. For low risk offenders it seems entirely disproportionate to tear them away from their lives, families and friends in the UK and send them to countries where they may not speak the language or have any ties.”


For those who have committed serious crimes, there is a further question of whether it is right to send high-risk offenders to another country when their offending follows an upbringing in the UK. As I have said, judges have expressed sympathy with appellants in deportation appeals and have expressed surprise at the effect of the legislation. As Lord Justice Baker remarked in the case of KF:

“For those lawyers, like my Lord and myself, who have spent many years practising in the family jurisdiction, this is not a comfortable interpretation to apply. But that is what Parliament has decided.”


I am putting this to Parliament again by proposing the modifications to the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 set out in Amendment 82A. I beg to move.

Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle Portrait Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP) [V]
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My Lords, I intervene to support Amendment 82A in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. She has set out a very clear case, so I will be brief.

I have lost count of how many times we have heard Ministers say, “We want to treat everyone the same way; we want a global system.” As the noble Baroness set out, this amendment seeks to correct a discrimination in how the law was being applied. Many times, when I have risen to speak in this Committee, it has been because of concern about family life, the impacts of decisions on children and the separation of families. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, just set out, that is what we are looking at here, as well as a situation in which people who are clearly a product of British society—and should be our responsibility—being dumped on other nations, which may have far fewer resources than we have to deal with them. To expect other nations to pick up the results of our choices and decisions is utterly unreasonable.

It is chiefly those innocent children, spouses and partners I am concerned about—lives being torn apart. I refer the Minister to the Children’s Commissioner’s quotes I referred to in the Skype family amendment. This has massive impacts on well-being, health, mental health and educational attainment.

The last time I spoke, I talked about the judgment of Solomon. It is a question of applying the judgment of Solomon or applying his wisdom to make a choice that is best for individuals or society. I therefore commend Amendment 82A to the House.

This is my last contribution on the Bill in Committee, so I pay tribute to the relatively small number of Members of your Lordships’ House who have done an enormous amount of work and clearly have a massive amount of expertise in all these areas. I have learned a great deal from listening to that. I appreciate that, and I hope the Government will listen to nearly all the amendments presented here, which have been trying to make the Bill more humane, fair and respectful of human rights.

Lord Rosser Portrait Lord Rosser (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The mover of the resolution, the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has explained the background to this amendment and what has prompted it. As has been said, Section 117C of the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 provides an exemption against deportation where it would be “unduly harsh” on that person’s partner or child. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, explained, the amendment seeks to give what I would interpret as more specific and relevant weight to the impact on a child of the deportation of somebody who may be a foreign criminal with a genuine and subsisting parental relationship with that British child, or other qualifying child, when considering an exemption.

I await with interest the Government’s response, during which I hope it may be possible for the Government to provide information on the number of such exemptions against deportation given under Section 117C of the 2002 Act in each of the last three years for which figures are available. Also, what estimate, if any, have the Government made of the increase, if any, in the number of such exemptions per year that would result from the change provided for in this amendment becoming applicable—a change which, frankly, in the light of some of the legal cases to which the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, referred, would seem quite reasonable?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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My Lords, next time I stand here, I will bring a series of numbers because the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and others have foxed me on numbers this afternoon. However, but I will get for him, if I can, the number of exemptions under Article 8. I thank the noble Baronesses for bringing forward Amendment 82A on family life.

The Article 8 ECHR

“right to respect for family and private life”

is a qualified right, which can be circumscribed where lawful, necessary and proportionate in the interest of a number of factors, including national security, public safety, the prevention of disorder or crime and the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. Section 117C of the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 provides that when assessing whether deportation breaches Article 8 of the ECHR, the deportation of a foreign national offender is in the public interest, unless certain exceptions apply. These amendments seek to alter these exceptions and diminish the importance placed on the public interest in deporting the most serious offenders.

The proposed new clause amends the exception at Section 117C(5) for foreign national offenders—or FNOs—who have been sentenced to less than four years of imprisonment and have a genuine and subsisting relationship with a qualifying partner or child so that their deportation would not be in the public interest if it would be unreasonable for the child to leave the UK or to remain in the UK without the foreign national offender. That would be in addition to the existing exception which applies where the effect of the deportation on the partner or child would be unduly harsh.

18:15
This clause also amends the exception, at Section 117C(6), for FNOs who have been sentenced to more than four years of imprisonment, so that their deportation would not be in the public interest where they have a genuine and subsisting parental relationship with a qualifying child and it would be unreasonable for the child to leave the UK or to remain in the UK without the FNO. This would be in addition to the current exception which requires that there are very compelling circumstances over and above the exceptions for FNOs sentenced to less than four years.
When considering whether the effect on a child of deporting a foreign criminal is unduly harsh, consideration may already be given to whether it is reasonable to expect the child to leave the UK, taking account of the child’s nationality and length of residence in the UK, or whether it is reasonable to expect the child to remain in the UK, separated from one parent. It is obviously a higher threshold than in non-criminal cases because of the greater public interest in deporting serious or persistent foreign criminals. Parliament has expressly required a particularly high threshold when assessing whether the deportation of those sentenced to at least four years’ imprisonment is in the public interest. That reflects Parliament’s—and I would say the wider public’s—view that the more serious the offence committed by a foreign criminal, the greater the public interest in their deportation as explicitly set out in the 2002 Act.
The best interests of any child affected by the foreign criminal’s deportation, the nationalities and immigration status of family members and the nature and strength of the foreign criminal’s family relationships are all factors relevant to the Article 8 proportionality assessment when determining whether there are very compelling circumstances. Section 117C already strikes a good balance between protecting affected partners and children and the public interest in removing FNOs. The courts have upheld the lawfulness of the family life considerations to be taken into account in relation to deportation, agreeing that they are consistent with the requirements of Article 8.
This clause would not apply to all FNOs but only to those residing under EU free movement rights immediately before they were revoked. This would mean applying Section 117C differently to EEA and non-EEA citizens. It is right that, as far as possible, we create parity for all foreign nationals in the UK. Where conduct is committed after the end of the transition period, an EEA citizen protected by the withdrawal agreements or by the UK’s domestic implementation of those agreements will be considered for deportation according to the same rules as non-EEA citizens. I hope that with that explanation, the noble Baroness will be happy to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Hamwee Portrait Baroness Hamwee (LD) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, who has certainly done her fair share of work on the Bill, is quite right in saying that this is about correcting discrimination, and I do not think the Minister addressed that point. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, is also quite right that this is about the impact on children. This is not a hearts and flowers amendment about all criminals.

The Minister said that she would bring the numbers with her for the next debate on these issues. I understand that the Home Office has no numbers on this; I shall be glad if she writes to correct me if I am wrong, but I was told that it had no data.

The amendment comes from the organisation Bail for Immigration Detainees. It sees how Section 117C operates. Frankly, I would not like to have to apply it—and that has been the view of certain courts, which I have quoted. I am not arguing that it is unlawful, but I am saying that Parliament should take this opportunity to reflect on how thinking about our society develops and changes. The courts may say that it is lawful, but some judges have also said that, in their view, it is not necessarily right as judged by other criteria. The Minister said that this would diminish the weight placed on the public interest, but I think that there is a public interest in the impact of laws on children.

This amendment was about—or is about; I have not withdrawn it yet—treating EEA and non-EEA citizens equally. We have heard about the importance of this throughout the four days of this Committee. I am sorry that the Government have now prayed in aid the fact that the clause can be only about EEA and Swiss citizens, rather than accepting that this would level things up and end a discrimination. However, I think I have no alternative at this moment other than to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 82A withdrawn.
Clause 5: Power to modify retained direct EU legislation relating to social security coordination
Amendment 83 not moved.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)
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We come now to the group beginning with Amendment 84. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate, and anyone wishing to press this or any other amendment in the group to a Division should make that clear during the debate.

Amendment 84

Moved by
84: Clause 5, page 4, line 3, after “(1)” insert “only”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would restrict the Secretary of State’s power to make regulations to the powers listed in Clause 5(3).
Baroness Ludford Portrait Baroness Ludford (LD)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, in moving Amendment 84, I shall speak to other amendments in this group which attempt to rein in Clause 5 or delete it. Clearly, this group is also linked to the next group of amendments. I am pleased to see the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, here; it is nice to have a change of landscape and scenery.

The Delegated Powers Committee in two reports has highlighted the problems of Clause 5, so this debate echoes the one that we had on Clause 4. Clause 5, in the words of the DPRRC, gives Ministers

“almost absolute power to rewrite the Co-ordination Regulations at any time of their choosing”—

that is, the social security co-ordination regulations. Parliament has no power to modify such SIs, only to approve or reject them. Not only did Clause 5(1) and 5(2) confer those very broad powers, but subsequent paragraphs on the purposes of modification place little restraint on Ministers; they give Henry VIII powers, among others.

The Delegated Powers Committee said that the Government’s delegated powers memorandum gave

“inadequate justification for a wholesale transfer from Parliament to the Government of power to legislate in a field that could … impact on large numbers of UK citizens resident in EEA members states, and EEA nationals resident in the UK”.

The committee said that the memorandum did not explain the need for Ministers to have the Clause 5 power now,

“how the Government might seek to use it … why it includes a power to amend … legislation … not listed in clause 5(2) … why it is not time limited”,

and why there is no duty to consult. It recalled its repeated view that for a skeleton Bill, a full explanation of delegated powers is necessary—and in fact, it says this clause is not even a skeleton; I do not know what is less than a skeleton, but it is a nice phrase. In any case, Clause 5 is unnecessary.

Since the UK left the EU on 31 January, the relevant EU regulations pertaining to social security, pensions and healthcare have been retained in UK law by Section 3 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. That Act already contains a power in Section 8 to modify retained direct EU law. The Government have in fact already exercised that power and amended the co-ordinating regulations in 2019—I think there are four sets of regulations altogether, which are referred to as fixing regulations. The Government now want powers in this Bill, but if they do not fit within the 2018 Act then they must necessarily not relate to any ability for the law to operate effectively or to any deficiency in EU law. They are not tidying-up powers, and if they were then the Government could use the 2018 Act. It seems inappropriate to have Clause 5 in the Bill and for the Government to be able to legislate under its powers. It is much better for any changes to be brought to Parliament by primary legislation.

Of course the Bill and these powers are not about rights under the withdrawal Act or those protected by the withdrawal Act, who are often referred to as the cohort. Powers regarding the social security, healthcare and pension rights of those people covered by the withdrawal agreement are covered under Section 7A, which was inserted into the 2018 Act by the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020. That is also accompanied by Section 13 of the 2020 Act, which confers the power to make regulations in respect of social security co-ordination rights protected by the withdrawal agreement. We therefore have two sets of powers to regulate: one under the 2018 Act and another under the 2020 Act. Why does the Secretary of State now need a third set of powers to make regulations?

There is bound to be some duplication across these sets of powers, and it looks as if they are designed to bypass the need for primary legislation. In fact, I also recall that a memo attached to the letter from the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, on 4 September, about the illustrative SIs, said that the Government are also planning to implement a future relationship using the powers in Section 179 of the Social Security Administration Act 1992, the primary legislation governing reciprocal agreements for social security benefits between the UK and the rest of the world. That is a third set of delegated powers, so Clause 5 in this Bill would be a fourth set of powers. The Government are getting awfully greedy about powers for Ministers.

I put it to the Minister that if the Government think they need further legislation on social security it needs to go into primary legislation. Indeed, our Delegated Powers Committee suspected that Clause 5 was in the Bill to avoid having to prepare a detailed Bill subject to full parliamentary scrutiny once future arrangements with the EU were concluded. It said that Clause 5 is

“an inappropriate delegation of power.”

Hence, we have given notice that we would seek to delete Clause 5 altogether, whereas Amendment 84 would restrict the powers to those described in Section 5(3), while Amendment 85 would delete the power to distinguish between recipients on the basis of their nationality or where they reside.

18:30
There is a range of possibilities for a future arrangement on social security co-ordination, from “skinny” coverage —to borrow the adjective that has been used about a “skinny” FTA—to something much more similar to the present coverage. The draft agreement that the UK Government published in May 2020 was quite limited. They already said that they would stop the export of child benefit, and expect that arrangements regarding disability and unemployment benefits will change and are less likely to be comprehensive in future. They forecast that some benefits would be available for a time-limited period.
Altogether, these would be quite substantial changes. One other that pensioners fear is the possibility of no uprating in pensions for UK citizens resident in EEA countries in future. Certainly, the draft text of the agreement published by the Government in May did not cover cash benefits other than state pensions. It also did not cover healthcare costs for pensioners in EEA countries, where they now get a so-called S1 form, which enables them to get healthcare coverage.
There is a great deal of worry about the powers that the Government want to confer on themselves under the Bill. The other worry is that although the Government say that the Clause 5 powers will not affect the cohort covered by the withdrawal agreement, fears about respect for the withdrawal agreement have been raised in recent days. They have even led to the resignation of one of the law officers today. The prospect is raised of the Government being able to modify, by regulation alone, the vital provisions of the withdrawal agreement on the continued right of pensioners to receive pensions and increases in pensions—the uprating—and their healthcare under the S1 scheme, and to have their pension contributions in different EEA states aggregated so as to be able to benefit fully from all periods in which they paid social security in different countries. The risk would be that they would get penalised for having moved around in their working lives.
All this leads the Liberal Democrat Benches to argue that Parliament needs to be able to consider any changes properly through primary legislation. I think we might hear from others to the same effect. The social security legislation and arrangements are extremely complex. It is possible that, unless there is the kind of scrutiny that primary legislation gives, there could even be an unwitting breach of the withdrawal agreement if inconsistency is not spotted. My noble friend Lady Hamwee raised this earlier and the Committee discussed it on Monday. There is a continuing worry that there will be a “sting in the tail” request for comprehensive sickness insurance—private health insurance—at some stage in the grace period. Until I read Hansard, I will not be entirely sure that that worry has been taken away.
All in all, Clause 5 makes us very nervous. I hope that the Minister will be able to tell me that, at the minimum, she accepts the amendments constraining the Clause 5 powers and, preferably, that she totally agrees with me that the clause should be deleted and primary legislation in this important area brought forward instead.
Lord Alton of Liverpool Portrait Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, the Committee will be relieved to know that I can be mercifully brief. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, that Clause 5 is not something we should be happy about. It brings to mind the debates in recent weeks on matters such as the medicines Bill, where the same concerns have been raised about the use of things such as skeleton Bills. I do not want this to become a skeleton Parliament. Under the cover of Covid and Brexit, we are seeing the emasculation of many of Parliament’s powers, which we should cherish. The noble Baroness is, therefore, right that the overuse of statutory instruments—Ministers taking powers, reputable and decent as individual Ministers may be—is not a safeguard for this House. Ministers change; Parliament changes, but the legislation we pass is almost cast in stone. It is right to raise these concerns about accountability and scrutiny, the need for checks and balances, and why we should cherish the rights and privileges that parliamentarians enjoy. The noble Baroness is right to remind the Minister of what the committees of our own House have said about the overuse of these powers.

Baroness Janke Portrait Baroness Janke (LD) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I will speak in support of Amendments 84 and 85 and of Clause 5 being deleted from the Bill. As other noble Lords have said, the amendments in this group seek to restrain the Government in their objective of transferring wide-scale powers to Ministers to take action that could have a major impact on the lives of UK citizens living in EEA countries and on EEA citizens living in the UK.

Amendment 84 would restrict the Secretary of State’s power to make regulations to the powers listed in Clause 5(3). These powers enable the social security co-ordination regulations to be amended and policy to be changed. The social security regulations co-ordinate access to social security for people moving between EEA countries and they are widely accepted and understood across those countries. They ensure clarity about where payments and contributions are made. These payments are essential income to UK citizens living in the EEA and EEA citizens living in the UK. As other noble Lords have said, it is important for all citizens to have confidence in the continuation of these complex regulations and in the withdrawal agreement itself. The Government’s explanation is that the clause allows them to make regulations to implement any new policies regarding co-ordination of social security. The clause is intended to be used to implement new policies, subject to the outcome of future negotiations with the EU. As the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has warned, there has been no adequate justification for the transfer of these powers to Ministers. The Constitution Committee also recommends that Clause 5 be deleted from the Bill and says:

“Any further modification of the Social Security Co-ordination Regulations that might be required could be achieved using the power in section 8 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018.”


Amendment 85 seeks to preclude the power of the Secretary of State to distinguish between recipients of pensions and other benefits on the basis of their nationality or residence in a particular state. This takes no account of other circumstances and would lead to arbitrary and unjust decisions that would have a huge impact on the lives of the people they relate to.

Further, I wish to oppose that Clause 5 stand part of the Bill. If successful, this would see Clause 5 as an inappropriate delegation of power, as recommended by the DPRR Committee in its 46th report. How can it be right or proper that the regulations governing the crucial payment of social security, such as disability benefit and unemployment benefit, to large numbers of people can be radically changed, even to their extreme disadvantage, without consultation, without proper scrutiny and with little accountability? This is a licence to penalise large numbers of citizens arbitrarily without proper justification or democratic safeguards. If this clause goes through, public consideration of changes to the regulations will be so limited that the people affected will have no opportunity to question or make representations as to their impact.

I support these amendments and strongly oppose Clause 5 standing part of the Bill. As the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee said:

“We remain of the view, expressed in our earlier Report, that the Government have provided an inadequate justification for a wholesale transfer to Ministers of power to legislate in a field that could have a major impact on large numbers of UK citizens resident in EEA countries, and EEA citizens resident in the UK, who currently rely upon reciprocal arrangements.”


I support my noble friend Lady Ludford in saying that such changes should be the subject of primary legislation and not as is suggested in Clause 5.

Baroness Sherlock Portrait Baroness Sherlock (Lab) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, it is good to have a chance to explore the social security part of this Bill at last. I will speak to the Clause 5 stand part amendment, to which I have attached my name, and to my Amendment 91, to which my noble friend Lord Rosser has added his name and which would sunset the powers in Clause 5(1).

There are two minimum steps that Ministers need to take if they want to keep Clause 5 as it stands. First, they must address all the issues raised by the Delegated Powers Committee. Secondly, they must be clear with Parliament about the state of social security co-ordination after transition. The DPRRC’s 22nd report highlights matters that Ministers have failed to explain, such as how the Clause 5 powers fits with provisions in the 2018 and 2020 Acts;

“how the Government might seek to use the power; why it includes a power to amend primary legislation and retained direct EU legislation other than the SSC Regulations; why the power is not time limited; why Ministers will have no duty to consult before making regulations.”

We have received some very helpful briefings so that we can explore these issues, but we need to get some answers on the record. My understanding of what we have heard is that the Clause 5 power enables government to make policy changes, whereas the power under the withdrawal Act is used to fix deficiencies, and the delegated power in the 2020 Act relates only to ensuring that the provisions of the withdrawal agreement can work. Can the Minister tell the Committee whether that understanding is right? Can she confirm that the Clause 5 power cannot be used to make changes for those people who fall within the scope of the withdrawal agreement?

On the breadth of the powers, I think that the Government’s defence is that the powers in Clause 5(1) can be used only to modify retained direct EU legislation as specified in Clause 5(2), and that Clause 5(3) says that the powers in Clause 5(1) can be used for various purposes—but, again, only in relation to the retained EU law specified in Clause 5(2). In any case, they say that the illustrative draft regulations under Clause 5 repeal all the instruments specified in Clause 5(2), so there is nothing for this power to apply to. Is the Minister telling the Committee that it is the Government’s intention to repeal all the instruments specified in Clause 5(2)? Are there any circumstances in which those regulations would not be repealed?

In terms of how the Government will use it, my understanding is that the Clause 5 power will be used to repeal provisions not covered by any deal; that is what is suggested by the illustrative draft regulations. We have been told that the power may therefore be used only once. In that case, what is the problem with time-limiting the power, as Amendment 91 proposes? Again, it has been suggested that you need to hold on to it—for example, in case a new state joins the EU, but this seems highly disproportionate. If that were the only issue, I am sure that Ministers could find a much more targeted way to deal with it—and they will have plenty of time to work it out because new states do not just join the EU overnight. So, is there any other reason why the Government need to retain the Clause 5 powers beyond 12 months other than to deal with a new state joining the EU? If it is just that, what other mechanisms did they look at for dealing with that?

18:45
We are told that the Clause 5 powers are designed to be used in relation to HMRC and DWP provisions only. Regulation 4 in the draft illustrative regulations excludes benefits in kind, signalling that this will not cover healthcare. Can the Minister confirm for the record that the power will not be used to make changes in relation to healthcare?
The second issue is what social security will look like after transition. Ministers keep assuring us that the Government’s aim is to negotiate a deal, but the gap between the UK’s opening position and that of the EU was really quite big, and the auguries of the deal are not encouraging. If there is no deal in place before the end of the transition period, what are the Government going to do? Are they going to use the Clause 5 powers to repeal everything and then start slowly trying to negotiate a deal with individual states or with the EU?
What will happen on day one to those not covered by the withdrawal agreement? Specifically, will pensions be exportable and uprated? Will any other benefits be exportable, such as unemployment or disability benefits? Will workers have to pay both national insurance contributions and contributions in EU states, including posted workers? On day one, will the UK allow aggregation of residents and contributions in the EU when it comes to claiming UK contributory benefits or the state pension?
So far, Ministers refuse to answer any of these questions, on the grounds that they aim to get a deal. However, they also want total freedom to determine what happens if there is no deal. If the Minister cannot answer these questions, will she explain why, as the Delegated Powers Committee pointed out, it was not even a requirement to consult before making regulations?
If Ministers want delegated powers on this scale, the very least they need to do is to be clear on what they intend to do with them. Social security co-ordination affects a great many people, and Parliament deserves more clarity and control than the Bill currently affords us. I hope the Minister can answer these questions well.
Baroness Stedman-Scott Portrait The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Stedman-Scott) (Con)
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My Lords, I am grateful to those who have spoken to this group of amendments. I also thank Ministers from the Home Office for their stewardship of this clause to date.

The EU social security co-ordination regulations operate in the context of the EU’s free movement rules. I will refer to these as the SSC regulations. They set out which member state is responsible for the payment of social security benefits, and require the export of some benefits and the aggregation of social security contributions when claiming benefits and pensions. The rules require equal treatment for citizens across the EU, and they also ensure that individuals pay social security contributions in only one member state at a time.

The Government have repeatedly and transparently set out that as we end free movement, the EU social security co-ordination rules will change to reflect the arrangements we have with countries outside the EU—for example, in relation to the export of UK benefits. It is right that the UK be able to set and negotiate its own rules, in line with well-established UK policy in this area, now we have left the EU and as we prepare for the end of the transition period.

Clause 5(1) of the Bill duly provides the power for an appropriate authority to modify the retained SSC regulations specified in subsection (2). Clause 6 specifies that the power to modify includes the power to amend, revoke or repeal. Subsections (3) and (4) of Clause 5 ensure that supporting incidental or consequential changes made under the power can be appropriately reflected in domestic and retained legislation—for example, to address inoperabilities or inconsistencies which may arise from the modification of the retained SSC regulations. This provides Ministers with the power to ensure the continued operation of domestic social security legislation which refers to, or is related to, the retained SSC regulations.

Subsections (5) and (6) disapply EU-derived rights to ensure that there are no unintended interactions between areas of EU law and new policies, for those not covered by the withdrawal agreement. Subsection (7) defines “appropriate authority” as

“(a) the Secretary of State or the Treasury, (b) a Northern Ireland department, or (c) a Minister of the Crown acting jointly with a Northern Ireland department.”

This provision currently confers on a Northern Ireland department the power to make changes in this area so far as they relate to matters within its devolved competence.

Schedule 2 sets out the scope of the power as it relates to a Northern Irish department, providing details on the powers used in relation to devolved competence, joint use with Ministers of the Crown and consultation with the Secretary of State where that is normally required. The Northern Irish Minister for Communities confirmed that a legislative consent Motion will be requested from the Northern Ireland Assembly in respect of Clause 5. My officials are working closely with the Northern Ireland Executive, given the need to bring the LCM discussions to a conclusion—one way or another—by Report.

Schedule 3 provides further detail on the form that regulations will take under the clause. The schedule also provides that any regulations made through the use of the power are subject to the draft affirmative procedure. The noble Baronesses, Lady Sherlock and Lady Ludford, raised issues around the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s criticism of the breadth of and justification for the powers. I have noted the recommendations in the DPRRC’s report of 25 August and have heard the House’s views.

The power enables the Government to implement policy changes in this specific area, for example, to stop the export to the EU of a UK benefit where that benefit is currently required to be exported under these EU rules. The Government’s position is that the powers in other legislation do not provide for this. That is the purpose of this power; it cannot be used to initiate policy changes where these do not arise from the modification of the specified retained SSC regulations. The understanding of the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, is correct in that regard.

I note that the DPRRC’s recommendation that this clause be removed is unchanged since its report on the previous iteration of the Bill. While the clause is broadly unchanged, the context is very different. First—as acknowledged in that report—we now have a withdrawal agreement with the EU, and nothing in Clause 5 enables the Government to alter the rights guaranteed under that withdrawal agreement. When discussing Clause 5, we are therefore talking about those who move between the UK and the EU once the transition period has ended and not about any current recipients of UK benefits living in the EU while they continue to live there. There is no time now for a more detailed explanation of what it means to be covered by the withdrawal agreement, but the Government will publish detailed guidance on this question.

Secondly, on 27 February—before the introduction of this Bill—the Government published their future social security co-ordination policy, confirming that they would seek an agreement with the EU in this area, covering co-ordination on the state pension and social security contributions.

Thirdly, on 19 May, before Committee in the other House, the Government published, in full, their proposed legal text for negotiations with the EU in this area. To support the scrutiny of the clause in Committee in this House, we shared—on 4 September—a draft of the regulations illustrating the approach the Government intend to take under Clause 5 in a negotiated outcome with the EU, which remains our objective.

We have set out that the retained SSC regulations would be repealed were they no longer required. The intended policy consequence of this approach is that where provision is not made under a future UK-EU agreement on social security co-ordination—for example, in relation to the export of a particular benefit—that provision would cease. This point is critical: the retained SSC regulations are designed to operate on the basis of reciprocity with the EU and its member states. The Government are seeking a new reciprocal social security agreement with the EU—an agreement similar to those we have with key trading partners outside the EU, where the UK can agree the limits of what we co-ordinate, in line with our national interest. Those negotiations are ongoing.

We need this power to provide the essential legislative framework for the Government to deliver future policy changes from the end of the transition period in this specific area. This needs to be done in the window between the conclusion of negotiations and the end of the transition period and in response to the outcome of those negotiations. The Government’s approach has to be viewed in that context.

The noble Lord, Lord Alton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, talked about avoiding scrutiny. Far from seeking to avoid scrutiny, this approach gives Parliament the opportunity to scrutinise the Government’s position during the Clause 5 discussions. As Clause 5 provides the power to make draft affirmative regulations, Parliament will have the opportunity for further debates on the affirmative regulations, based on the outcome of the negotiations. We have consulted the Social Security Advisory Committee on our draft regulations and will continue to engage with it as the regulations are finalised.

I will come back to more detailed points on the scope of this power on the next group of amendments, but my arguments also apply in respect of Amendment 84 in this grouping. In isolation, Amendment 84 unnecessarily inserts the word “only”.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, spoke about Amendment 91, which seeks to time-limit the regulation-making powers under Clause 5 to within one year of the end of the transition period. The amendment would prevent the Government making further changes to the retained SSC regulations beyond 31 December 2021 without new primary legislation. The Government can already make and revise co-ordination arrangements with non-EU countries without a time limit, using secondary delegated legislation under the Social Security Administration Act 1992.

To time-limit the Clause 5 power would require the Government to use primary legislation to make even minor changes to the retained SSC regulations, to the extent that those remained on the statute book once the power had expired, which would not be a good use of parliamentary time. Unlike the position with non-EU countries, all regulations made under Clause 5 are subject to the draft affirmative procedure and require a debate in each House before they can become law. By committing to that, the Government are providing reassurance to Parliament that future use of this power will be open to scrutiny.

On Amendment 85, the noble Baroness said that she sought to remove the power to distinguish between recipients of state pensions and benefits on the basis of nationality or residence in a particular member state. The effect of the amendment would be to restrict the Government’s ability to make

“different provision for different categories of person to whom they apply”,

for example, on the basis of nationality, immigration status or date of arrival. The social security co-ordination agreement that the UK seeks with the EU is a nationality-blind agreement.

However, there is a possibility of a non-negotiated outcome. The wording in this clause is largely standard wording in social security legislation. The wording makes it clear that there might be different provision for different categories of person, and this includes immigration status or nationality. Making different provision for different categories of person is not new; examples can be found in bilateral agreements the UK has with other countries. For example, the UK has already signed a social security agreement with Ireland, which applies to UK and Irish nationals and their family members in the UK and Ireland.

19:00
I will end by providing an important clarification in relation to Amendment 85, which I hope will give the House some comfort in terms of how the Government could not use this power. The Government could not use Clause 5 to stop the export of the state pension to the EU for anyone: a UK national, an EU citizen or otherwise. It is stated in the DPRRC’s report that the Government could do this for certain nationalities. This is incorrect, as only modifications can be made to the retained SSC regulations. The state pension is payable worldwide under domestic legislation, regardless of the recipient’s nationality, and nothing in Clause 5 can be used to change this.
The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked what we would do if no deal was in place. We are negotiating to secure a deal with the EU based on co-ordination and reciprocity. The rationale for practical reciprocal arrangements covering state pensions and national insurance contributions is clear. If there is no agreement with the EU, the rationale for such arrangements with member states would remain.
The noble Baronesses, Lady Ludford and Lady Sherlock, also raised the issue of healthcare. This power is not being used to make future policy changes to healthcare aspects of the retained SSC regulations. The illustrative regulations make this clear in regulation 4, and the Department for Health and Social Care has made separate secondary legislation in respect of the healthcare provisions. They also have separate primary powers to implement future healthcare arrangements with the EU. Consequential amendments might be needed to some areas of DHSC legislation, an example of which is shown in regulation 5 of the illustrative regulations.
I have spoken at length, but there was a lot of ground to cover. I hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments.
Baroness Ludford Portrait Baroness Ludford (LD)
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My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, has shared with us a great deal of dense information. I will make the usual disclaimer that I will need to read Hansard to be absolutely sure that I have understood what she said.

One thing about which I was a bit confused was when she said that Clause 5 would not be used to disbar the export of pension for certain nationalities. Then why have that ability in the Bill? She said it was a standard clause in social security co-ordination legislation, but I admit that I was a bit confused about that. It might be my problem: as we are nearing the end of Committee, my brain might be getting a little befuddled.

One cannot but be concerned about those covered by the withdrawal agreement. Until recent days, I would never have imagined that there could be any threat to the rights of people covered by the citizens’ rights part of the withdrawal agreement. That confidence has been shaken, I am afraid, and I am sure that the Minister will understand that point. She might protest that there is no intention from her department to do that, but the experience of the last week has been undermining of confidence. So we will need to look at all that very carefully.

The other thing—and I must admit that I saw a reference to it somewhere but have forgotten where—is that healthcare, because it is not covered by the DWP, is subject to separate regulations which I will need to try to track down somewhere. If the Minister can get her officials to draw those to my attention—to add another SI to the ones we are looking at—that would be very kind. The Minister is always very helpful, in various ways. It is a very complicated subject and I will look fully at her remarks.

I remain generally concerned about the scope of the delegation. As the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, said, it affects an awful lot of people. Will they be able to aggregate the periods of social security in different states? Can they be assured that their pensions will be not only received but uprated? Will they be able to get healthcare coverage? This is absolutely bread-and-butter basic security for people. It is why it is called “social security”. These matters remain of deep concern, but for now I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 84 withdrawn.
Amendment 85 not moved.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Finlay of Llandaff) (CB)
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We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 86. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this or anything else in this group to a Division should make that clear in debate.

Amendment 86

Moved by
86: Clause 5, page 4, line 8, leave out paragraph (b)
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is to probe the different purposes that may be required.
Baroness Hamwee Portrait Baroness Hamwee (LD) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 87, 88, 89, 90 and 92. These amendments are parallel to amendments debated on day one in Committee, on Clause 4, and some, of course, are exactly the same. As we heard in the last debate, both the Constitution Committee and the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of your Lordships’ House have reported. The chair of the DPRRC, the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, said that he was “not emollient” whenever it was that we debated Clause 4, and he was right not to be so when dealing with what he called “fundamentally excessive delegated powers”. What I regarded, and regard, as too- wide powers, the Minister then called “clear constraints”. She relied particularly on what the Government have published already: whether it is in its draft, illustrative or final form is irrelevant.

The noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, also relied on the fact that “we”—the Government—would do and not do certain things, but “we” will not always be the “we” that the noble Baroness is referring to, and others whom we actually know. I am sure that, were she on the other side of the House, she would be pointing out that Governments change and individuals change, and it is in no way impugning her integrity to say that there should be protection against future changes without the proper involvement of Parliament.

Yet again it has just been suggested that a debate, without Parliament having a power to amend something, is adequate: “adequate parliamentary power”. It is not. I must say that I for one got a bit lost on some of the arguments in the last debate. In particular, I did not follow why Amendment 85 was unnecessary. I wonder whether we might have a written explanation of the opposition to it. I could not quite follow whether it was because of what is meant by the term “modify”.

The powers will remain and the Government will have them until the Act is amended or repealed. The latter would cause a lot of confusion. It is not only about the here and now; it is about the short, medium and long-term future.

I refer particularly to Clause 5(3)(d), which is the subject of Amendment 89. That says that the regulation-making power includes power

“to provide for a person to exercise a discretion in dealing with any matter.”

I do not think that is in Clause 4, so I wonder about the significance of the addition and what the discretion could be about. Would it be a discretion to apply a restriction or criteria less robustly? I do not think it could mean to apply it more robustly, but I might be wrong in that. I do not think the latter would be lawful. If the Minister is able to clarify that, it would help.

I had intended to quote from the DPRRC report and to comment on the Constitution Committee report a little. It strongly agreed with the DPRRC’s conclusions, but we have heard a lot from the report, so I do not think I need to do so. However, I follow my noble friend Lady Ludford, who talked about the uncertainty that recent events have caused people who will be affected by the changes being made and the big changes to their lives. I think she said that these things could happen quickly, and they certainly can, which reinforces my point about the importance of not just relying on what certain Ministers say today because it might not be the case tomorrow.

This morning, I had an email from a British citizen living in Spain. She said:

“With the withdrawal agreement, both EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens residing in the EU at last felt we had secured a relatively good, guaranteed level of protection, even if not completely perfect (and certainly not as good as we had with the UK a member of the EU!). However, if the government can tear up the rule book in this way clearly anything can be changed on a whim and nothing is guaranteed, and I fear that our hard-fought rights could be just as easily removed.”


I beg to move.

Baroness Sherlock Portrait Baroness Sherlock (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for raising these issues. I specified my concerns on delegated powers in relation to social security in my speech on the previous group, so I will not repeat them. However, I asked a number of specific questions in that speech, not all of which the Minister managed to answer. Will she commit to respond to each of them in writing before we get to Report?

The Minister has been generous in allowing us access to her officials, who have provided some excellent briefing, but it has taken me two weeks of work to get my head around the interaction of all these sets of powers and the Government’s arguments on the use of delegated powers in relation to the Bill. The Minister will realise that the Committee remains pretty unhappy about this matter, so I encourage her to respond as fully as she can, in writing, both to my points and to those raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and others before we reach Report, so that we can have the best possible debate at that point. I look forward to hearing her reply.

19:15
Baroness Stedman-Scott Portrait Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)
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My Lords, I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Hamwee and Lady Ludford, for tabling Amendments 86 to 90 and 92. I sincerely apologise for any effort on my part that allowed the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, to get lost in my explanation. That was never the intention. I can confirm to all noble Lords that we will write, as requested. I hope it is clear that, as in the run-up to Committee stage, our door is open for further meetings for clarification.

These amendments seek to probe and limit the consequential powers at subsections (3), (4) and (5) of Clause 5, which are intended to provide the flexibility needed to fully implement, across the statute book, policy changes arising from the outcome of negotiations with the EU. In general, the provisions at subsections (3) and (4) provide the Government with the ability to give full effect across the statute book to policy changes arising from the modification of the retained SSC regulations listed at subsection (2), based on the outcome of negotiations with the EU in this area.

The purpose of these powers will be to ensure that there are no inconsistencies or gaps in provision between domestic social security legislation and retained SSC regulations following modification of the regulations at subsection (2). Such inconsistencies could potentially hamper the operation of domestic social security law where there are references to the regulations at subsection (2). Subsection (4) is not a “new power”, as the noble Baroness suggests. Nothing in subsections (3) or (4) enables the Government to do anything that does not arise as a result of changes to the SSC regulations. In particular, changes made under subsection (4) are limited by Clause 5(3)(c).

Wording used in Clause 5(3)(a), (b) and (d), for example, in relation to the use of discretion, as well as making different provision for different categories and purposes, reflects largely common wording in social security and other legislation which ensures that the regulations made under Clause 5(1) can appropriately reflect the different categories and statuses of those affected. I have previously mentioned the withdrawal agreement and the agreement that we have with Ireland on social security. Both are examples of where, for persons in scope of those agreements, we have already made provision for different categories of persons and for different purposes, and may need to do so again under regulations made under Clause 5 through subsection (3).

Subsection (4) simply ensures that any changes directly related to the retained SSC regulations can be fully implemented—for example, where supplementary or transitory provision is required in other legislation arising from the changes to the SSC regulations. The terms used at subsection (3)(c) allow for the making of provisions that arise from the changes to retained SSC regulations and for temporary or time-limited provisions that assist in the implementation of any changes brought about by the outcome of negotiations with the EU, if appropriate. The removal of subsection (4) could result in incomplete or incoherent amendments to domestic legislation or retained EU law not mentioned in subsection (2), potentially affecting the functioning of domestic social security law and a future agreement in this area.

We have shared with the Committee an illustrative draft statutory instrument that would be made under Clause 5. The draft SI includes a section which makes consequential and supplementary amendments of different types and purposes that arise elsewhere in the statute book as a result of the modification of retained SSC regulations. It is important that the Government have the power to make such consequential changes to avoid inconsistencies, gaps and inoperabilities across the statute book.

In my previous comments I gave an example of where the Government could not use this power to stop the export of the state pension. The state pension is payable worldwide under domestic legislation. Therefore, this power could not be used to such effect. With regard to Amendment 90, subsections (5) and (6) simply ensure that there are no unintended interactions between areas of EU law and new policies for those not covered by the withdrawal agreement. We have been very clear that there will be new policies in this area, which will mean that there will be a change in social security co-ordination entitlements for future cohorts of claimants.

These amendments would restrict the Government’s ability to reflect changes and to make appropriate changes across the statute book to ensure the full implementation of any outcome of negotiations with the EU. I think I have confirmed to the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, that I will respond to her in writing. To the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, on lack of scrutiny, I have set out under the previous group the specific consequences that justify this approach. I say to her also that, on Amendment 89 on the use of discretion, reference to discretion is standard wording in social security legislation and can be found in many Acts of Parliament. On the issue of why Amendment 85 is unnecessary, I will happily write to the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee.

I hope I have addressed noble Lords’ concerns, and I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment for the reasons outlined.

Baroness Hamwee Portrait Baroness Hamwee (LD) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, it is not the Minister’s fault that I was confused in the previous group. I certainly was not accusing her of anything—it is entirely my own fault.

I am interested to hear that Clause 5(3)(d) is standard in social security legislation. It is not something that I am accustomed to in Home Office legislation—this Bill brings the two together—but I may be wrong in that and might not have noticed it before.

The Government have got themselves into a pretty tight timetable on this. That is why they want scope to make changes. I do not doubt the noble Baroness’s intentions; she sounded very reassuring. But it is not about being reassuring now, it is about what is possible under the very wide powers, as I and other noble Lords have been pointing out. Clearly, at this moment it is appropriate that I should beg leave to withdraw the amendment, so that is what I will do. However, I say to the noble Baroness—and it is no accusation—that I have not been assured. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 86 withdrawn.
Amendments 87 to 92 not moved.
Clause 5 agreed.
Schedules 2 and 3 agreed.
Amendment 93 not moved.
Clauses 6 and 7 agreed.
Clause 8: Commencement
Amendment 94 not moved.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Finlay of Llandaff) (CB)
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We now come to the group consisting of Amendment 95. I remind noble Lords that anyone wishing to speak after the Minister should email the clerk during the debate. Anyone wishing to press this amendment to a Division should make that clear in the debate.

Amendment 95

Moved by
95: Clause 8, page 5, line 34, at end insert—
“( ) The Secretary of State may not appoint a day pursuant to subsection (1) until—(a) the recommendations of the “Windrush Lessons Learned Review” (HC93 published in March 2020) which may affect EEA and Swiss nationals have been implemented in full in respect of such persons;(b) the Secretary of State has laid before Parliament a report on their implementation in respect of such persons; and(c) the report has been debated by both Houses of Parliament.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would prevent the Government from ending free movement until it has implemented in full the recommendations of the Windrush Lessons Learned Review so far as they may affect EEA and Swiss nationals.
Baroness Hamwee Portrait Baroness Hamwee (LD) [V]
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, Amendment 95 was tabled some time ago. I will not speak for long on this, but I will refer again to the level of anxiety among people affected by the Bill and by other arrangements related to the ending of free movement, exacerbated by the events of the last few days. I have just read out an email I received this morning explaining precisely that.

Windrush has been referred to very often in discussions on the ending of free movement and associated rights, the extent or otherwise of rights following that ending and the risk of things going wrong. I hesitated when I said “Windrush”, because that seems disrespectful. It has become a term for a whole number of people who have been so shockingly affected. That is a pretty neutral term, but I know noble Lords will understand who I am referring to, and they are all individuals. I hope anybody listening to or reading this debate will understand that that is not intended to be disrespectful at all.

The Windrush Lessons Learned Review has particularly relevant recommendations. A lot are about ways of doing things and attitudes. I made a note about a couple of recommendations, 22 and 23, but at this late hour I will not read them out; I suspect other noble Lords are very familiar with the review’s recommendations. To give other noble Lords an opportunity to speak to this amendment, I simply beg to move.

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Portrait Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My Lords, I support Amendment 95, to which I was pleased to add my name. Over the course of our four days in Committee, we have heard many warnings of how EEA and Swiss nationals could now become caught in the snare of the hostile/compliant environment. At Second Reading I lamented this fact and that the Bill does nothing to dismantle its institutional architecture, such as the right-to-rent regime.

In light of the Home Secretary’s very welcome announcement that she accepted Wendy Williams’s recommendation of a full review and evaluation of the hostile/compliant environment, I asked the Minister whether she could assure us that that review has the power to question its basic tenets and institutions.

In her subsequent letter to Peers, she responded to the question but without really answering it, saying that the Government are now addressing and implementing the Windrush review findings. Other than acknowledging the significant failings revealed as members of the Windrush generation were unintentionally caught up in measures intended for so-called illegal migrants—I do not believe anyone is illegal—she left us none the wiser as to how deep the evaluation of the hostile/compliant environment would be able to delve.

Likewise, I did not glean much from a Written Question I tabled after Second Reading. This asked about terms of reference, whether the evaluation would be designed in partnership with external experts—as recommended by Wendy Williams—when it was due to be completed and whether the findings would be made public. The Minister’s reply did not answer the questions directly but explained that the evaluation needed to get the balance right between not allowing those without a legal right to be in the country “to exploit the system” and ensuring that the right protections are in place for those whose status should have been assured. Scoping of the work had begun and more information would be available in due course.

19:30
The answer was dated 26 August. Three weeks on, is the Minister able to update us at all, in particular on terms of reference and timescale? Can she confirm that the findings will be published, and can she answer my question about conducting the evaluation in partnership with external experts, as recommended?
I would hope, too, that this would involve experts by experience. Wendy Williams questions whether the Home Office,
“has learned the wider lesson that it should be engaging meaningfully with the communities it serves.”
The “true test”, she warns, will be
“whether stakeholders, including those considered to represent critical voices, are … invited to participate in developing the department’s policies, and also in designing, implementing and evaluating them.”
She said that
“the test will also be whether the range of stakeholders, including community groups, consider they have been heard.”
Can the Minister assure us that the Home Office has learned this lesson when it comes to its evaluation of the hostile environment? Are officials seeking out a “diverse range of voices,” as called for in recommendation 8?
Last week IPPR published a highly pertinent critique of the hostile environment, based on a wide range of sources and original interviews. It notes:
“Our research suggests that the Home Office is in a state of policy paralysis—in principle committed to the objectives of the hostile environment, but increasingly uncomfortable about its practical implications.”
I suspect that the Minister could not possibly comment.
The IPPR report concludes that the failings acknowledged by the Government are not simply failures of implementation, as the Government tend to imply, but rather they reflect the core design itself—a design that
“deters people from accessing essential services, targets all those without documentation regardless of their immigration status, and forces people into destitution without any evidence that this affects their immigration decisions.”
If this is not acknowledged and addressed in the evaluation, the report warns there is a real risk that it will lead to only,
“superficial changes to Home Office practice, rather than fundamental reform of the underlying legislation and policies.”
Instead, it argues that the only way to tackle the injustices created by the hostile environment is through “deep reform”.
Until such deep reform has been enacted and we have genuinely learned the lessons of Windrush, we should not be subjecting a whole new group of EEA and Swiss nationals to the brutalities of what the former Home Secretary and Prime Minister billed as a “really hostile environment”.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno Portrait Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD) [V]
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I join in the appeal from the noble Baroness for the Government to look again, as I have many times—and she has as well—at the whole immigration process that we have in this country. To mention recent developments, I would like to know exactly how many of the 13,000 immigrants on the island of Lesbos have been offered a place here in the United Kingdom.

Windrush of course created so much harm and unnecessary suffering, but we still see that the sort of attitude that is there is able to create harm to many people. As I mentioned before in this Chamber, in 2005, 17% of those who were given a hostile decision by the Home Office had the decision overturned on appeal. It is better now, they say—but it is not. Last year, 52% were successful on appeal; that means that 52% of the decisions taken by the Home Office were incorrect. They created hurt and worry and also created for the United Kingdom Government the need to go to appeal, at extensive cost.

So will the Minister and the Government look again so that, as we say in this amendment, the lessons of Windrush will be learned? We should have a thorough-going overhaul, because we are going to see very many new crises in the coming years regarding immigration. Are we going to take the lead in a hospitable way? We are not the best nation in the world for accepting migrants. We are going to see climate change, and so on, create deserts where previously there were productive lands; we have to face that. Now is the time to look at the past and say, “We were wrong,” and look at the future and say, “We can do better.”

Lord Paddick Portrait Lord Paddick (LD)
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My Lords, I support Amendment 95 in the name of my noble friends Lady Hamwee and Lady Ludford and the noble Baroness, Lady Lister of Burtersett.

In her Windrush Lessons Learned Review, Wendy Williams described the Windrush scandal as both “foreseeable and avoidable”. The Home Office cannot afford another scandal, this time in relation to EEA and Swiss Nationals. Wendy Williams said:

“It is the responsibility of the department to keep track of the impact of the policies and legislation … and to make sure that, where members of the public are affected, particularly where they are at risk, it supports them appropriately.”


We heard from noble Lords on Monday about who might be at risk: those in abusive relationships; those who do not have access to IT, such as many Roma people; and those who rely for IT support on organisations that may not be there in years to come. Wendy Williams went on to say that

“it is perhaps unsurprising that the department did not then consider how difficult it might be for people to prove their status, prove when they arrived, or that they had been in the UK continuously some 30, 40 or even 50 years later.”

As the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, has said, amendment after amendment in this Committee has criticised the hostile/compliant environment. As the noble Baroness said, Wendy Williams recommended a full review and evaluation of it, assessing whether the measures contained within it were effective and proportionate. She said:

“This review must be carried out scrupulously, designed in partnership with external experts and published in a timely way.”


To echo the noble Baroness, where are we with that review now?

We have heard compelling evidence that the EEA and Swiss nationals affected by the ending of free movement have real concerns—reinforced by recent developments over the past week—particularly over having physical proof of immigration status, although the Government say that is not necessary. The Windrush review said:

“The Home Office should take steps to understand the groups and communities that its policies affect through improved engagement, social research, and by involving service users in designing its services”,


yet the Government not only seem not to be listening to EEA and Swiss nationals whom this Bill affects but, as a result, appear to have learned nothing from the Windrush review.

When it comes to impact assessments, the report recommends:

“Officials should avoid putting forward options on the binary ‘do this or do nothing’ basis, but instead should consider a range of options.”


Yet the department’s approach to matters such as physical proof of immigration status seems to be exactly that—failing to properly consider a “physical proof on request” option, for example.

As my noble friend Lord Roberts of Llandudno has just said, the number of successful appeals against a refusal to grant settled status questions whether the values and culture of the Home Office have changed in the way that Wendy Williams recommended, and whether there is an effective central repository from which lessons and improvements from adverse case decisions can be disseminated.

Windrush really was a scandal. Ensuring that there is no repeat in relation to EEA and Swiss nationals depends on the implementation of the Wendy Williams review recommendations. I support this amendment.

Baroness Sherlock Portrait Baroness Sherlock (Lab) [V]
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My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords for raising this important issue. The review highlighted how many of the Windrush generation suffered so much, starting with stress and anxiety and leading too often to loss of livelihood and even separation from home and family. It therefore seems a fitting way to end the Committee stage, because it is a reminder to all of us of the consequences of getting immigration policy wrong.

When the review was first published, the current Home Secretary said she was “shocked” to discover the extent of the insensitive treatment that the Windrush generation and their families suffered. However, it is not good enough to be shocked after the event. We should all have known what was going on, taken responsibility for policy-making and been responsive to the people who were telling us that something was wrong. I think, along with my noble friend Lady Lister, that the decision to spend 10 years prioritising hostility in immigration policy should weigh heavily indeed.

As the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, said, Wendy Williams called the desperate results of the scandal “foreseeable and avoidable”. That is a reminder, as the Government push this Bill through, that people will have to live in the world this legislation will help to frame. We should keep that in mind.

I add my voice to the questions asked by my noble friend Lady Lister and others. The Home Secretary accepted all the recommendations of the review, including changing the culture of the Home Office, and gave an early update before the summer. Has the comprehensive improvement plan promised for September been published? Can the Minister give us an update on how many people have now applied to the compensation scheme, and how many have received and accepted a compensation offer? When will we get another update on progress made so far? We all need to learn the lessons of the Windrush review.

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)
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I thank all noble Lords who have spoken to this amendment. I concur with the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, that this is a fitting end to Committee, although some of our views on how to prevent another Windrush scandal differ—for example, on the declaratory scheme versus the constitutive scheme for settled status.

Noble Lords have acknowledged that the Home Secretary has made it clear that we accept the review’s findings. She updated the other House last month on progress towards implementing its recommendations. In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, we will publish a comprehensive improvement plan in September—so, this month. I look forward to updating the House.

As part of our response, we are reviewing every aspect of how the Home Office operates: its leadership, culture, policies and practices, and the way it views and treats all parts of the community it serves. It must be said that while urgent and extensive work is taking place across the Home Office on all the recommendations, fundamental change takes time to deliver. Culture shift is like turning an oil tanker round; I think noble Lords accept that point. To rush for the sake of making a headline would be the wrong approach. If noble Lords could stand in my shoes, they would see how much the Home Office and the Home Secretary talk about Wendy Williams and the lessons learned. The culture is already starting to change but it is not a quick change. Wendy Williams made that very point: we should not rush, first, to respond to the review or, secondly, implement some of the changes suggested in it.

Delaying the end of free movement until the changes are implemented would prevent us moving to a new skills-based immigration system. That new system means people will be treated equally and fairly, and delaying it would undermine the Government’s clear position on ending free movement. Noble Lords will not be surprised to know I cannot accept the amendment.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked about the evaluation, the terms of reference and whether we had engaged any external experts. The team is actively engaging with internal and external organisations, as well as with staff at all levels. We are engaging with the unions, with support networks and with the department’s race board to determine the best way to implement the findings of the review.

Of course, it is fair to say in conclusion that the findings of Wendy Williams’ Windrush Lessons Learned Review affect all migrants in the UK, not just EEA citizens. The tenet—to use the word used by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister—of her review was a fairness and a humanity within the way that the Home Office operates, and I can totally concur with that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked me for an update on the compensation scheme. I do not have the facts and figures—another deficiency in facts and figures this afternoon—but I will certainly write to noble Lords on where we are up to. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, questioned the high number of appeals that are upheld. This is all down to when appeals are lodged, and that can have an impact on appeals granted. With that, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.

19:45
Baroness Hamwee Portrait Baroness Hamwee (LD) [V]
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My Lords, the comprehensive improvement plan is due this month, and the first day of Report on this Bill is the last day of this month. I had made a note, before the Minister said it, that Wendy Williams herself talked about the importance of not rushing the change, but I think we can look forward to the review before—albeit immediately before—we start on Report. I accept of course that changing a culture, like redirecting an oil tanker, is a long process. Indeed, changing culture is something that should go on and on; it is necessary that it should always be a current issue.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, talked about the importance of not getting the policy wrong; it is about both policy and practice. The obvious read-across from the experience of the Windrush generation is indeed the documentation, as my noble friend mentioned. Recommendations are good, but they will only be evidenced by actions. As the Minister has just acknowledged, the lessons learned from the unhappy experience of Windrush are transferrable. “Fairness” and “humanity”, she said; those are very good last words for today—they are very good words for always. On that note, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Portrait The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Finlay of Llandaff) (CB)
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My Lords, before we proceed to that point, I have a request to speak from the noble Baroness, Lady Lister of Burtersett.

Baroness Lister of Burtersett Portrait Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)
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I am sorry to deter the noble Baroness; I think there was a delay in my request getting from here to there. I thank the Minister for answering most of my questions, but could I just push her a bit further? If the review decided that the only way to address the problems created by the hostile/compliant environment would be to reform the legislation, such as right to rent, is it within its power or terms of reference to be able to recommend that kind of legislative reform?

Baroness Williams of Trafford Portrait Baroness Williams of Trafford
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I am not being obtuse, but the noble Baroness is talking about hypotheticals. I do not think that that is the case, but perhaps we could speak further about it after Committee.

Amendment 95 withdrawn.
Amendment 96 not moved.
Clause 8 agreed.
Amendment 97 not moved.
Clause 9 agreed.
House resumed.
Bill reported without amendment.
House adjourned at 7.50 pm.