United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Patricia Gibson Excerpts

Wednesday 16th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Alison Thewliss]

I agree 100% with the hon. Gentleman’s point. I was going to mention the Advocate General later on, because it turns out he is Lord not-so-Keen in terms of the Government’s proposals, and neither are we.

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

What the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb) fails to realise is that at the heart of the Bill is an attack on devolution. It is not about who spends what where; it is an attack on the Scotland Act 1998, an attack on the will of the Scottish people and an attack on the sovereignty of the Scottish people.

[Alison Thewliss]

My hon. Friend is correct. These matters are clearly for the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government to decide, and the Bill is overreach at a ridiculous level. Either this legislation is very poorly drafted, which from the Government amendments it would certainly appear to be, or they do not understand devolution, which seems perfectly clear from the interventions we have had. Are they intent on dismantling 20 years of devolved decision-making on these islands, just so they can stick a flag on something? It is pathetic.

Then we get to clause 47, titled “Financial assistance: supplementary”. Subsection (1) states:

“Financial assistance under section 46…may take the form of grants, loans, guarantees or indemnities…may be provided subject to conditions (which may include conditions about repayment with or without interest)…may be provided under a contract.”

This nefarious Minister of the Crown not only has the power under the Bill to build some infrastructure in our country that the democratically elected Parliament of Scotland has not voted for, but it also gives them the power to stick Scotland with the bill and charge us interest. Gee, thanks guys. What can I say? So generous. It is the Skye bridge all over again. That was the first PFI project in the UK. It opened in 1995 and was notorious for its tolls. The then Scottish Executive had to buy the bridge back a decade later in order to abolish the tolls, which raised more money than the bridge cost in the first place. Do we really want to return to that level of generous investment in Scotland?

Six years ago today, I was pounding the streets of Glasgow with hundreds of other activists, knocking on doors, delivering leaflets and having animated discussions about what a new country could look like. We are a couple of days out from the anniversary of the 2014 independence referendum, which was a watershed moment for so many of us in Scotland. I cannot begin to describe the feelings of hope and excitement there were in the city of Glasgow, where my own constituency voted for Scotland to be an independent country.

I could not have imagined that six years later, I would be standing here, a Member of this Parliament. I could not have imagined that I would have had to fight three elections in five years, and I could not have imagined that Scotland would have been dragged out of the EU against our will. In my worst dreams, I could not have imagined that I would be standing here today, defending the very fabric of devolution from a full-scale attack.

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[John Redwood]

No, most certainly that is not the point, and that is not my position. I am a democrat, and I have accepted completely the results of the referendums on devolution. It is quite true that I and my party were on the other side in the referendum on devolution. I believed that it would to lead to a big insurgence in unsuccessful Scottish nationalism, which is exactly what it did, and I do not think that that has enriched our public life any. However, I am a democrat and I fully accept the devolution settlement. I am very happy for the devolved authorities and Parliaments to exercise their powers. I also believe that we should co-operate fully with them, and I urge my Friends on the Front Bench to do so. Of course it is as much in our interests as it is in the interests of the Scottish Parliament to define the projects that Scotland most wants and that are most necessary to promote its prosperity.

[Patricia Gibson]

The right hon. Gentleman says he is a democrat. In view of that, does he acknowledge that the Sewel convention says that this Parliament will not normally legislate on areas or matters that are devolved to the Scottish Parliament? We also know that what is not reserved is automatically devolved, so does he think it appropriate to override the Sewel convention and threaten the powers and sovereignty of the Scottish Parliament without the consent of the Scottish Parliament, which is sovereign?

[John Redwood]

I do not accept that it does any of those things. I think we are legislating in a perfectly legal and sensible manner.

I shall go back to the remarks I wish to make as to why it is better that we pay for our own projects rather than doing so with the big discounts on our money through the European Union. The second reason for that is that some of the European schemes required the project to be a marginal one. Part of the terms of giving the money was that it was not a project we would finance for ourselves or not a core, essential project. That did not make a lot of sense. Once that is under United Kingdom control, we will obviously jointly wish to finance the best projects, and of course that will be in full consultation with the devolved Governments around the country.

The third reason that I think we will do better without European Union intrusion is the flagging of these projects. There has been deep resentment in the United Kingdom that whenever a small amount of money came from Europe into a project, it had to show the EU flag but we were not allowed to put a British flag on it to say that all the so-called EU money had actually come from United Kingdom taxpayers. Even worse, we were not even allowed to put a British flag on it to show that a larger proportion of the funding for the scheme had often come directly from the United Kingdom Government. It will be much better when we do not have to false-flag projects in the interest of misleading people about who is actually paying for something.

In this debate on the Bill generally, I know that the Opposition are still very exercised in thinking that these and other powers are illegal because they in some way violate the rules of international law set out in the EU withdrawal agreement. State aid is part of that argument, and these are the two central clauses on state aid. I would like to say that I disagree strongly with my right hon. Friend the Northern Ireland Secretary. I do not think there is any way in which this legislation violates international law. It clearly asserts and upholds United Kingdom law, most notably the sovereignty clause in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. That Act was a compromise agreement and a halfway house. It was attached to a political agreement to complete a proper negotiation in due course over our future relationship, so it was always rather problematic; because it was like that, it was ambiguous and contradictory. There are perfectly strong clauses in the EU withdrawal agreement and the EU (Withdrawal) Act stating that it is a duty that the single market and customs union of the whole United Kingdom, which expressly includes Northern Ireland, is upheld. That is exactly what this Bill is seeking to do.

The Government and many others hope that there will be a last-minute agreement, because it is quite easy to deal with all the outstanding legal issues in a comprehensive agreement. I am a bit sceptical that that is going to happen, because I see no evidence of good faith in negotiations by the European Union, and I think that, were there to be a breakdown, there would be a second legal argument that there had not been good faith. That is another reason why there is no sense in which we are seeking to break an international agreement, let alone the law.

I am very pleased that the Government are taking crystal clear powers to provide state aid and investment in projects. I hope the Government will also, ere long, issue a very strong statement of the United Kingdom’s state aid policy that should cover this and other matters. We owe it to the international community to have a strong, clear and independent state aid policy that is perfectly compliant with the World Trade Organisation rules on this matter, because we wish to be a global trader with more free trade agreements outside the European Union space. In that respect, we can probably do better than the European Union, because there have been a number of important cases where the European Union has been found to be in violation of state aid rules by the World Trade Organisation, and perhaps an independent Britain can do a bit better.

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[Andrew Bowie]

I will avoid commenting on the meagre amount of chips that you get in the House of Commons Dining Room. I was one of the loudest to complain about the state of my fish and chips. On the hon. Gentleman’s point, I cannot believe that a Member representing an Aberdeenshire seat is defending the fact that the Scottish Government give it one of the lowest amounts of funding for any local authority in the country. The people of Aberdeenshire will be listening to him, and I am sure they will explain to him their dissatisfaction with that comment.

I urge the hon. Gentleman to try explaining that to constituents next door in West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine, the people of Durris and Drumoak—a community divided due to Park bridge being closed, possibly never to reopen. [Interruption.] I hear the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) groaning. The mask is slipping from the Scottish National party. The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown) underlined that when he earlier described these bridge closures as “wee pet projects”. These are communities divided because the Scottish Government are not funding Aberdeenshire Council to the requisite level to fix those bridges and reconnect those communities. The fact is that, unless it is in Glasgow or the central belt, the Scottish Government just do not care.

[Patricia Gibson]

I was groaning in despair because all the hon. Gentleman’s remarks deny one fundamental principle: that the people of Scotland are sovereign. The people of Scotland are represented by a democratic Parliament in Edinburgh, and there are clearly defined devolved areas that are the responsibility of that sovereign Parliament. This Bill denies that. Why can he not just be honest enough to say so?

[Andrew Bowie]

The hon. Lady is powerful and passionate in making her case, but this Bill does nothing of the sort. This Bill reinforces devolution, with over 100 powers coming from Brussels to Scotland, and it is for the Scottish Government to determine how they are acted on and how the money going to Edinburgh is spent.

The fact is that the SNP has been found out. They do not like this Bill because they know that it will demonstrate the relevance, the strength and the spending power of the British Government to the people of Scotland, and that endangers their grand plan: the separation of our country. For that, really, is all the SNP cares about—not people, not jobs, not the health service, not Scottish Water, as we heard earlier, and not powers over minimum unit pricing of alcohol. Those are all a front—a distraction. They do not like this Bill, despite the fact that it will benefit Scotland, because it promotes and unites our United Kingdom. That is the policy of the SNP, and it is clearer today due to these amendments than at any time before. The SNP would rather that Scotland was poorer if it meant that the United Kingdom Government had less power. That is the truth of it; it is clear from these amendments.

I am delighted that the British Government are enshrining the internal market in statute. I am delighted that we are voting to protect jobs in Scotland and around the rest of the United Kingdom, and I am delighted that, once again, this place will be able to directly spend money that will benefit the lives of my constituents. I am delighted that we are binding our country together, with no threat to the NHS, no threat to the existing powers of the Scottish Parliament and no threat to devolution. I will take great joy in voting down these amendments tonight. I will be voting to strengthen the Union, enrich Scotland and protect jobs. The SNP will be doing the opposite.

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[Richard Thomson]

As I was about to say—the hon. Member was doing so well until he said he would not back the borrowing powers, which is very disappointing because it could change so much—legitimate criticisms can be made of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities funding formula. I voiced them myself when I was the council co-leader in Aberdeenshire. However, the Bill will not resolve or change that. I hope that the hon. Member would agree that if we are to make changes to that, they should be based on factual analysis and evidence, rather than just recycling old tropes.

[Patricia Gibson]

My hon. Friend has set out quite a considerable list of things the UK Government could do now to invest in infrastructure projects across Scotland. Does he share the concern my constituents will have about the UK Government’s willingness up to this point to make such investment? For example, the Tories first promised the Dalry bypass in North Ayrshire in my constituency in 1938, but it took an SNP Scottish Government to deliver it.

[Richard Thomson]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. As I say, if this were backed up by additional resources, we might be having some different discussions, but it still would not make the case for this encroachment on devolved powers.

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[Christine Jardine]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms McDonagh, but part of me feels I should begin with an apology, indeed to everyone in the House, because I wonder if, like me, they are beginning to feel a little as if we are in a remake of “Groundhog Day” with this Bill. Yesterday, we heard that in establishing a body within the Competitions and Markets Authority the Government did not respect the devolution settlement. Here we are today looking at the replacement for European structural funding, if we ever get to see what the suggestion is, and we are debating the fact that it does not respect the devolution settlement. I am at a loss as to whether the Government are somehow doing this deliberately; surely they cannot be completely unaware of the issue. I know they are certainly aware of devolution because, like my colleagues on the SNP Benches, they did not support devolution 20 years ago, whereas my colleagues on the Labour Benches did support devolution, along with us Liberal Democrats. It is sad that here we are, 20 years later, debating devolution all over again. I ask the Government, as I did yesterday, to recognise that this constant lack of respect for the devolution settlement simply promotes the nationalist narrative.

In leaving the European Union, we lost all the regulations and standards on food production and manufacture that applied across the continent. I recognise and am in absolutely no doubt about the need to replace them across the UK. For some time, I was prepared to listen to the Government’s arguments when they were negotiating with the devolved nations—in good faith on both parts, I believe—in respect of the frameworks and powers to replace them. However, the wheels appeared to fall off that particular wagon when the occupancy of No. 10 changed.

I have to join Government Members in laughing when SNP Members point a metaphorical accusatory finger and yell, “Centralisation.” Those of us who actually live in Scotland and have to endure the SNP Government’s incompetence know that when it comes to keeping control of the purse strings centrally, they are the control freaks par excellence of British Governments—

[Patricia Gibson]

And still you cannae win an election.

[Christine Jardine]

I remind the hon. Member that I am here because I won an election.

[Patricia Gibson]

I’m talking about your party.

[Christine Jardine]

If I were to be told now that the aim of the Bill was to ensure that any money going to Scotland was to be spent in the manner for which it was originally intended, I would take that into account, because we all know that once cash disappears into the coffers of the SNP Government at Holyrood and is in SNP control, there is no guarantee that it will be spent where it was originally intended. That is my concern with stopping the UK Government spending money in Scotland.

I am amused by the SNP stance. For SNP Members to give us a whole list of things on which the UK Government should spend money in Scotland—a list that, like the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie), I support very much of—but then to say that they do not want the UK Government to spend money in Scotland strikes me as absolutely ridiculous. Where, indeed, would people who live in Shetland and the Shetland Islands Council be if the UK Government had not had money to spend in Shetland when people there found themselves in need of financial support? To say that the UK Government cannot spend money on UK citizens, which is what we are—and many of us are proud of that—is utterly nonsensical.

[Christine Jardine]

Yes, I agree that there should be collaboration—that is where the Bill does not respect the devolution settlement—but the curious thing about the hon. Lady’s comment is that I seem to remember it was an SNP Government who did away with the body that allowed councils in Scotland to apply for transport infrastructure funding. If councils were also to be denied the ability to apply to the UK Government for transport infrastructure funding without going through the Scottish Government, what guarantee is there that they would get it? We need in Scotland the ability for the UK Government to spend money on projects—to use the coffers of the UK Government.

[Patricia Gibson]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Christine Jardine]

No, I will not, if the hon. Lady does not mind.

We need that option, rather than just having the list given by the hon. Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson) of projects with great big saltires on them and proclaiming that they were done by the Scottish Government. The Scottish Government are not the only funding body in Scotland.

Let me return to the point. In many ways the Bill does not respect the devolution settlement, and that is a great disappointment to many of us. I appeal to the Government, in going forward with this Bill, to look seriously at whether they can take on board amendments that would improve the collaboration, involve Ministers of the devolved nations, involve the elected representatives of parts of the country and ensure that we respect the devolution settlement, and, moreover, that we protect it and perhaps enhance it. That might prevent us from having to have this debate again and again and again in this place.

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[Ruth Cadbury]

I will not, because other Members want to speak.

Finally, I want to address state aid. We have witnessed a rather interesting piece of spin from the Government and their supporters. One of the central aims of the Bill—indeed, one of the central reasons why the Government are embarking on breaking international law—is to overrule the provisions on state aid rules that apply in Northern Ireland. Let us not forget that the Government agreed to those provisions in their so-called oven-ready deal.

What is even more concerning is that, while the UK was an EU member, successive Conservative Governments had an almost allergic attitude to state aid. In 2017, France spent almost twice as much as the UK on state aid, and Germany spent a staggering four times as much, so why the sudden focus on state aid? The Conservatives have never been very interested in it, to the detriment of UK businesses, innovation and enterprise. The Government know that, if they have genuine and sincere problems with state aid, that is exactly what the Joint Committee exists for. Once again, we see the Government using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Frankly, the buck should stop with the Prime Minister. He knows the damage that this Bill would do to the Union, to the UK’s international reputation and to the rule of law. This Bill sets up confrontation with the EU. Some 40% of our international trade is with EU countries, and it sets up a stand-off with the courts. It is an attack on the rule of law, and it undermines the UK’s commitment to the rules-based international order.

[Patricia Gibson]

I am delighted to participate in the debate, and I am going to do something unusual: I am going to talk about clauses 46 and 47, which most Government Members have refused to do. I will begin by saying that I support amendment 33 from the Scottish National party.

We are witnessing in this Bill a smash and grab on Scotland’s powers. Far from the much-touted “powerhouse Parliament”, we have clause 48, a clause that sees the UK Government reserving the devolved policy of state aid, and clause 47, which sees powers given to the UK Ministers in devolved areas. [Interruption.] I will say that again, because the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Jonathan Gullis) obviously does not understand it—I know that because I saw him questioning people earlier. Clause 46 sees powers given to UK Ministers in devolved areas—I will speak slowly so he understands—such as infrastructure, economic development, public spending, culture, sport, education and training. The list goes on.

[Jonathan Gullis]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Patricia Gibson]

No, I will not. I was trying to educate the hon. Gentleman a wee bit. I am always happy to clear up confusion about what devolution means, because there is a clear lack of knowledge about it.

What we are seeing in this legislation is an underhand, sleekit, sleight of hand whereby Scots, who for decades have rejected the Tories, are being put in their box, with powers stripped from their Parliament—a Parliament for which the case was hard fought, and won in the teeth of vociferous Tory opposition—and taken back to Westminster. We all know that the Scottish Parliament was established for Scots to have some say in their own affairs; to allow Scotland to do things differently, instead of every single aspect of our lives being governed by a Tory Government who have won the support of few Scots and the hearts of even fewer.

After 21 years, the Tories have run out of patience with us pesky Scots and they are using legislative procedures, hellbent on bringing to heel the nation that continues to reject them. In the Bill, Scotland will now be denied the choice to use her Parliament to do things differently—to do things according to our values, according to our beliefs. The very essence of devolution is being undermined, diluted and constrained, and in the process opposition to this arrogant madness has united whole swathes of Scottish society—our people, civic society, our educational institutions, our farming communities and our trade unions.

We in Scotland rejected these measures in the Scottish Parliament last month, overwhelmingly. Tory Members do not seem to understand that for Scotland’s Parliament not to have control over its own spending priorities is an affront to the democratic will of the sovereign people of Scotland.

The fact that the plans are set out in these clauses means that democratically elected MSPs and members of the Scottish Government can be overlooked, bypassed and marginalised when it comes to spending decisions, and the Bill will jeopardise the current Barnett funding formula. For the Tories, though, it will certainly solve the problem identified by Labour’s Baron Foulkes of Cumnock, who—I paraphrase—said, “Scotland is doing things better than in England” and

“they are doing it deliberately.”

This mean-spirited, grubby, underhand, squalid, sweaty-handed power grab is an attempt to stop just that—Scotland doing things better, and doing them better deliberately. In short, the Bill grabs power from the Scottish Parliament.

In answer to the question of what powers will be lost, the Bill could even allow Westminster to interfere on devolved taxation powers, threatening schemes such as the small business bonus.

The Sewel convention says that the UK Parliament would “not normally” legislate in respect of devolved matters without the consent of the devolved Parliaments, and the devolution settlement is clear: what is not reserved is devolved. For this Tory Government to undermine the devolution settlement by refusing to recognise the correct vehicle for delivery for such programmes designed to replace EU funding, is to ride a coach and horses through it. Spending decisions on key infrastructure projects, such as social objectives, will be taken out of the hands of the Scottish Parliament and could be completely out of step with the social and public policy of Scotland’s elected Government, excluding important players in Scotland’s civic society.

What if the UK Government impose on Scotland a project that goes against the democratic wishes or priorities of the Scottish Parliament? What will happen? How will such disputes be resolved? I think we know where the power grab takes us, in answer to that question. I can barely believe the blatant insult of this UK Government trying to portray the dismantling of the powers of the Scottish Parliament as a power surge. They should get a grip of themselves. Who on earth do they think that they are fooling? Scots are not daft. We can see the bluff and the bluster and the grubby way that this Government do politics. We have waited too long for our own Parliament to see it dismantled by a party that has been rejected by Scotland again and again and, for the record, has been rejected because it simply does not understand Scotland.

[Jerome Mayhew]

I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way—it shows that perseverance is rewarded eventually. She has made reference to the devolution settlement, so I draw her attention to Donald Dewar’s 1997 White Paper, “Scotland’s Parliament”, where it says:

“Westminster will continue to be responsible for those areas of policy best run on a United Kingdom basis.”

It goes on:

“By preserving the integrity of the United Kingdom, the Union secures for its people participation in an economic unit, which benefits business, provides access to wider markets and investment and increases prosperity to all.”

What is wrong with that?

[Patricia Gibson]

What the hon. Gentleman does again, as, to be fair to him, many of his colleagues have done, is demonstrate that he does not understand devolution. There is nothing to prevent common frameworks. The SNP Government have never objected to that, but what the Government are doing with this Bill is deliberately removing powers from the Scottish Parliament, preventing the Scottish Government from setting their own priorities, so common frameworks are not the issue.

There is a dawning realisation that up with this we in Scotland need not put. This Government know that they will never get legislative consent from the Scottish Parliament for this Bill. If the Tories want to win Scotland, if they want to run Scotland, then they really should try winning an election. The grubby tactics being used in this Bill to emasculate our national Parliament will simply not work. The more they try to constrain Scotland’s democratic rights, the more the ties that bind us to the rest of the UK loosen, so keep talking. The Scottish people are sovereign. Clauses 46 and 47 are merely footnotes on the journey to Scotland’s independence. All this Government are doing with their incompetence and bluster is moving us along our way to independence. They are overplaying their hand and putting the final nails in the Unionist coffin. For that at least, Scotland can be grateful.