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Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)
Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
The Secretary of State for Education (Gavin Williamson)
Leaving the European Union with a deal remains the Government’s top priority. We will work in an energetic and determined manner to get the very best deal, and a better deal than has previously been put to this House. We are supporting the sector to manage the transition through Brexit, including providing reassurance on participation in EU-funded programmes, future migration arrangements and access to student support.
Patrick Grady
The right hon. Gentleman was always energetic and determined when he was the Government Chief Whip and we worked together. What reassurances can he provide to the University of Glasgow in my constituency, which is having to issue emergency advice in the event of a no deal? It is reminding research teams to conduct inventories of their materials in case it is not possible to pre-order perishable goods such as gases. It is reminding staff and students
“that, in the event of a no-deal withdrawal, EU countries may not admit individuals with passports which are due to expire within six months of the date of travel.”
This is the kind of debilitating effect it is having. Would it not be better to accept the inevitable, and rule out no deal and ask for the extension now?
Gavin Williamson
We have worked and will continue to work closely with higher education institutions, including the University of Glasgow, to ensure, if we do leave without any deal with the European Union, that all mitigations are put in place. I very much look forward to working with the hon. Gentleman in this role as I did when we were both Chief Whips together.
Alan Brown
Some 96% of EU students who study at Scottish universities enrol on courses that are longer than three years. Does the Secretary of State agree that Scottish universities cannot but be adversely impacted by the Home Office’s current temporary leave to remain scheme, which allows for students being here for three years, as in Scotland they would then need to apply for a tier 4 visa? Does he agree this is unfair?
Gavin Williamson
The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. I know this matter has been raised with me by a number of Scottish Conservative and Unionist MPs and it is certainly something I am looking at closely, but I thank him for taking the time to raise it in the House.
Justine Greening (Putney) (Ind)
I think leaving the European Union with no deal would be one of the most anti-social mobility steps this country could have taken in many years. Does the Secretary of State agree with me that the left-behind communities that are so often talked about by Ministers will be the ones worst hit? Perhaps the only double whammy that could follow that would be to scrap the opportunity areas, which are at least helping some of them to improve education standards.
Gavin Williamson
I have spoken to quite a number of colleagues about the really valuable work the opportunity areas are doing and the impact—the very positive impact—they are having on the communities in which they are operating. We are looking at how we can develop that in the future.
Maggie Throup (Erewash) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend reassure the House that as well as ensuring our great universities—such as Derby and Nottingham near my constituency—can continue to educate overseas students from the EU, he is working towards reciprocal agreements so that young people in my constituency of Erewash can continue to study in EU countries?
Gavin Williamson
We are having such discussions with European member states, and we are making very good progress on this. It is very important that we ensure the United Kingdom remains a destination that EU students want to come to study in, and we have big ambitions to ensure we continue to deliver on that, but also that our students from our constituencies have the opportunity to study abroad.
Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP)
There have been alarming reports that the Department for Education is considering an Erasmus+ replacement programme for England only, with potentially no consequential funding for the devolved Administrations. Will the Secretary of State admit that this would amount to a complete abandonment of students across the UK, and will he take this opportunity to confirm that an England-only scheme is not something this Government will consider?
Gavin Williamson
We think that it is important for us to look at the interests of all students across the whole United Kingdom.
Carol Monaghan
I am not sure that that was an answer. Last Thursday, my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) asked the Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union about the status of Erasmus students who are currently in Scotland, specifically if they go home, for example at Christmas, whether there is a guarantee that they can return in the event of a no-deal Brexit. In response to her question, the Minister stated, “Yes.” Will the Secretary of State detail how that process will work, given that those students are not applying for settled status?
Gavin Williamson
I am very happy to write to the hon. Lady with more details and give her the reassurance that she seeks. We recognise how important it is for the UK as a whole to remain an attractive destination for people who wish to study, and that is vital in every component part of the United Kingdom, including Scotland.
Angela Rayner (Ashton-under-Lyne) (Lab)
Well, well, well. The Secretary of State has had quite a start. Rumour has it that he forgot to appoint a Skills Minister, and we are now waiting for our fifth Higher Education Minister in just two years. Will he tell us the fee status of European students after 2020, and will our universities still benefit from Horizon, Erasmus, and the European University Institute or not?
Gavin Williamson
We continue our negotiations and discussions with the European Union to ensure that we have access to these schemes.
Angela Rayner
Well, I am sure that the Secretary of State would like me to shut up and go away, but I am not going to do that. He has to try harder with his answers. Will he publish officially his no-deal impact assessment and contingency plans, and tell us how much his Department is spending on no-deal preparations? Can he give us a clear guarantee that his no-deal plans do not include suspending or weakening food standards in our schools?
Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Ind)
The Secretary of State for Education (Gavin Williamson)
Dudley will benefit from the substantial additional investment in education, including £14 billion for schools across England over the next three years, and £400 million for 16-to-19 education next year, on top of additional money provided to cover pension costs.
Ian Austin
It is my job to stand up for Dudley, so I am absolutely delighted that our campaign for a new university-level technical skills and apprenticeship centre has paid off, with the announcement on Friday that we were getting £25 million from the stronger towns fund. Is this not exactly what is needed to bring good, new, well-paid jobs in high-tech industries such as advanced manufacturing, digital media, low carbon technologies, autonomous electric vehicles and healthcare to replace those that the Black Country has lost in traditional industries?
Gavin Williamson
I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman and to my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley South (Mike Wood) for all the work they have done in campaigning to deliver this for Dudley, and for the work they have done to deliver the institute of technology in Dudley as well. That will all go towards generating the right skills and the right educational outcomes not only for the whole town of Dudley but much more widely. I very much hope to visit Dudley. Hopefully, the hon. Gentleman will be able to join me to discuss how we can do more for Dudley and the surrounding area.
Margot James (Stourbridge) (Ind)
Following the deeply regrettable closure of Stourbridge College earlier this summer, will my right hon. Friend consider meeting the principals of all the Dudley colleges—Dudley College, Halesowen College and King Edward VI College—with a view to discussing their wish to continue to provide vocational skills training, particularly adult education, in my constituency of Stourbridge.
Gavin Williamson
I would be very happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss that in detail with those stakeholders.
Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Education (Gavin Williamson)
We are increasing the funding for 16-to-19 participation through T-levels, and providing support for college improvement. The Office for Students and Ofsted hold HE and FE providers to account for delivery quality and successful outcomes. The teaching excellence and student outcomes framework and new digital tools provide data support in student choice.
Mary Robinson
Last week, at the invitation of sixth-former Anna, I visited Cheadle Hulme High School to speak to students. I welcome the announcement that sixth forms across Cheadle will benefit from the £120 million increase in spending. How will the Secretary of State ensure that that funding will help students in Cheadle to access the widest variety of course, opening up opportunities in areas such as high tech, technology, construction, creative industries and so many others that will benefit the Greater Manchester economy?
Gavin Williamson
As part of the funding increase for 16 to 19-year-olds, a key element is to ensure we are able to deliver those high-value courses that are sometimes more expensive to put on for students. A key element of the funding is preserved for that. I very much hope it will support my hon. Friend’s constituents. I look forward to continuing to work with her. She has campaigned long and hard to deliver this extra money for the colleges in her constituency.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
Gavin Williamson
Mr Speaker, I feel as though I have to make an apology to the House. Last time I was at the Dispatch Box, I forgot to mention that the hon. Gentleman had been the principal of a college. I said he was lecturing at a college, so I apologise for demoting him.
I am more than happy to continuously look at how we can give the maximum amount of support for our further education colleges and the 16-to-19 sector. We saw one of the largest increases in the base rate with the announcement last week. That is a good foundation on which to build.
Mr Speaker
The Secretary of State ought to be able to detect the hon. Gentleman’s status and his intellectual distinction from a radius of approximately 1,000 miles.
Julia Lopez (Hornchurch and Upminster) (Con)
The extra money for post-16 providers is extremely welcome. It has been warmly welcomed by Havering Sixth Form College in my constituency. However, it appears to be a one-year funding deal, rather than the three-year settlement that five to 16 education providers received. Will the Secretary of State look at giving colleges more long-term certainty by delivering future increases in line with inflation and raising the overall rate for 16 to 18-year-olds?
Gavin Williamson
My hon. Friend raises a very valuable point about the importance of long-term certainty for all parts of the education sector. That was very clearly explained in the report from the Select Committee chaired by my right hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon). We will continue to look at it. It was a one-year settlement for 16 to 19-year-olds. We made sure we gave as much certainty in the schools sector as possible. We continue to look at what more we can do to give confidence to the further education sector on how to invest in the future of our young people.
Dr Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)
Will the Secretary of State tell the House what plans he has to implement the recommendations of the Augar post-18 education review?
Gavin Williamson
We will be looking at updating the House later on this year on our response to the Augar review. I met Philip Augar just a few weeks ago to discuss it in some depth. We will continue to keep the House updated over the coming months.
Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con)
What conversations has my right hon. Friend had with the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government, specifically to talk about continuing the process of devolving further education to our locally elected mayors?
Gavin Williamson
This is something we are taking a lead on. We are already in the process of devolving many responsibilities to locally elected mayors. I will be having further discussions with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government on how we can make that work as efficiently and as well as possible to deliver the skills that are needed for our urban areas.
Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Education (Gavin Williamson)
We have fundamentally changed what apprenticeships involve. We have new high-quality standards developed by industry for industry. Apprentices are now getting more off-the-job training, while endpoint assessment ensures they are fully competent. Our new quality strategy will ensure that all apprenticeships are of the highest quality both in design and delivery.
Peter Aldous
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for that answer. Will he work with and support the New Anglia local enterprise partnership in setting up its levy pool, which will ensure that more SMEs in Suffolk and Norfolk obtain funding for training and apprenticeships?
Gavin Williamson
My hon. Friend raises an important point. We have already increased the amount of the levy being directed in that way from 10% to 25%. We will very much look at working closely across the whole region of East Anglia on how best we can support this important initiative that makes sure that young people who want the training and people who are retraining have the right skills to be competitive in the jobs market.
Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)
Last Friday, I met graduates of the Forging Futures scheme at Kirkstall Forge in my constituency. Those young people, who were previously not in education, employment or training, now have a bright future to look forward to, but because that is a pre-apprenticeship scheme it gets no Government funding. Will the Government look again at funding such schemes to give young people, such as those I met on Friday, a better future to look forward to?
Gavin Williamson
I would be very happy to look at the details of the scheme that the hon. Lady outlines. It is important for everyone on both sides of the House that we do everything so that those who need the maximum amount of support always get it.
Anne Milton (Guildford) (Ind)
Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the apprenticeship programme has the year-on-year cash that it needs to continue to deliver the life-changing opportunities that it does to people of all ages, without restriction?
Gavin Williamson
I take this opportunity to thank my right hon. Friend for all the work that she has done for this sector. Much of the work that we have inherited is down to her close attention to detail in delivering for a sector that she is so passionate about. I also thank her for the work that she did as a Deputy Chief Whip, when she was slightly less friendly, but equally effective.
I will certainly look at how we ensure that we have the right funding for apprenticeships. Apprenticeships have been one of the greatest successes of the Government. We have achieved so much over the last nine years, encouraging so many young people to take up the opportunity to train in an apprenticeship and have the skills that they need to succeed in future. We will be determined to build on that success.
Mr Speaker
I think the Secretary of State is rehearsing for his conference oration. That has to be what it is—we are grateful to him.
Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
This Government are making a complete hash of the apprenticeship levy in quality and quantity. It is running out of money, so the trainers who provide 70% of all apprenticeships cannot meet the demand from small businesses, such as the two I met recently in Blackpool that have had no money from the Department for Education. There was nothing new in the spending review for providers or for small businesses for apprentices. Starts for 16 to 18-year-olds are down 23% on the pre-levy numbers. There was nothing for the 800,000 young people who are stagnating in the NEET category, as my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) pointed out. There is not even a dedicated day-to-day Skills Minister to tell them, or us, why they are in this mess. Has anyone in this disappearing Government left the lights on?
Gavin Williamson
We have seen a change in attitudes as to what apprenticeships are able to deliver. After a decade and more under the Labour party, when we saw apprenticeships devalued and reduced, we have seen a seismic change in what we are doing, driving up the quality and status of apprenticeships. I know that colleagues on the Conservative Benches take great pride in what has been achieved, but we are always conscious that so much more needs to be done.
Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab)
Helen Whately (Faversham and Mid Kent) (Con)
The Minister for School Standards (Nick Gibb)
In August, the Prime Minister announced an extra £14 billion for schools in England over the next three years. That will bring the schools budget to £52.2 billion in 2022-23. This will allow funding increases for all schools. In particular, our pledge to level up pupil funding means that every secondary school will receive a minimum of at least £5,000 per pupil next year, with every primary school getting a minimum of at least £4,000 from 2021-22. This is the largest cash boost in a generation, and that has only been possible because of our balanced approach to public finances and careful stewardship of the economy since 2010.
Mr Speaker
The Department for Education is no doubt very illustrious, but it is not well versed in the application of the blue pencil.
Bambos Charalambous
The Chancellor’s promise to increase school funding is welcome, but he has given no extra money to schools for this year. School budgets are at breaking point, so will the Minister acknowledge that he is leaving schools on the brink?
Nick Gibb
What the hon. Gentleman says is not actually true. We have given extra money to fund employer pension contributions this year and to partially fund the pay grant over and above the 1%, and now the 2%, that is affordable, so we have provided schools with extra money this financial year.
Mr Speaker
We have got to hear the voice of Shipley. I call Mr Philip Davies.
Philip Davies
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I congratulate the Minister and the Secretary of State on securing the extra funding from the Chancellor in the spending review. As the Minister knows, I have been arguing for this for some time. Can I urge him to front-load this money, because we know that school costs have been outstripping their incomes? They need this money as soon as possible. And while he’s there, as the Secretary of State is Bradford educated, will the Minister encourage him to return to Bradford district in order to visit some schools in my constituency?
Nick Gibb
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the work and campaigning he has done to secure extra funding for schools in his constituency. He has been successful in ensuring we have the most generous schools settlement in a generation, and that is in part a tribute to his work, as well as that of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who has heard his request for a visit to Bradford and I am sure will comply.
Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
Not that I would ever wish to appear ungrateful to the unmoveable Schools Minister, but he will be aware that there is a funding shortfall of £1.2 billion for children with special needs and disabilities. In Hull alone, the shortfall is £4 million. Will he please ensure that all our children can have their needs met by urgently addressing this funding shortfall?
Nick Gibb
We take this issue as seriously as the hon. Lady does, which is why we have announced within the £14 billion a £700 million increase for special needs. That is an 11% increase. We absolutely understand the pressures that local authorities have been under and we are addressing it.
Helen Whately
I welcome the extra £14 billion of school funding that the Government have committed to. Will my right hon. Friend ensure that some of that money goes to schools in my constituency, some of which have been historically underfunded? They are fantastic schools but could do even better with more money.
Nick Gibb
My hon. Friend has been a redoubtable campaigner for school funding in her constituency. Thanks to her efforts and the balanced approach we have taken to the public finances, the school funding settlement will mean that every school in her constituency will attract an increase in funding and that 75% of secondary schools there will benefit from our pledge to level up school funding to at least £5,000 per secondary school pupil.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Could I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that it does not cost any money at all to save children’s lives in a measles epidemic by making every school see a certificate of MMR vaccination before they get to the school? Will he take on board another point? My schools tell me that after all these years of deprivation—since 2010—in schools it will take a long time to come back, even with the quick fix of the money he is now throwing at them.
Nick Gibb
The Institute for Fiscal Studies has said that this funding represents a large increase in per pupil spending and reverses the reductions to real-terms per pupil funding for five to 16-year-olds. The hon. Gentleman is right about MMR. It is very important that parents vaccinate their children. There is a lot of information available about the safety of the MMR vaccine from the NHS, and we would encourage parents to look at that information before making a decision.
Sir David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con)
I warmly welcome the recent education financial settlement, which is good news for all schools across our country. Does the Minister agree that such resources will help to make schools and education provision even better so that all children across the country can benefit?
Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
They say that faith is the substance of things hoped for over the evidence of things not seen. At the time of her resignation, the right hon. Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) said “Judge a man by what he does, not what he says.” The Secretary of State has been part of a Government who have slashed £1.9 million from schools in his own constituency in the last four years. Codsall Community High School has lost £700,000, and Staffordshire has had to slash £60 million from its budget. The electoral promises are not worth the textbook that they are written on, are they?
Nick Gibb
I wish that the hon. Gentleman had cited the figures in my constituency, given that he is asking me the question although it was pre-prepared for the Secretary of State.
As I have said, the IFS has stated that this funding fully reverses cuts in funding for five-to-16-year-olds. We have only been able to deliver such a large increase in school funding because of the way in which we have managed the public finances since the banking crisis in 2008. That is why we can do this today, and why we have been able to announce the three-year spending package that all schools, including schools in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, have been seeking.
Gareth Snell (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab/Co-op)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Mrs Kemi Badenoch)
Next year local authorities, including Stoke-on-Trent City Council, will share in an increase of more than £700 million in higher-needs funding. We will hold separate discussions with the authorities that have raised specific issues with us.
Gareth Snell
The Minister will be well aware that, as part of its higher-needs recovery plan, Stoke-on-Trent City Council proposes to plunder classroom budgets by £14.5 million over the next four years. The headteachers in the city are opposed to the plan, which will require a sign-off from the Department in order to go ahead. Will the Minister make a commitment today that rather than signing it off, she will convene a meeting of the headteachers in Stoke-on-Trent, so that alternative arrangements can be found that do not necessitate robbing Peter to pay Paul?
Mrs Badenoch
We are aware of the issues that have arisen in Stoke-on-Trent. The commissioner is due to submit a report to the Department today, and officials will review it and submit recommendations to me in due course. Once a decision has been made, the report will be published.
Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con)
A number of children with higher needs in Stoke-on-Trent attend Horton Lodge Community Special School in my constituency, where there is great concern about the provision of funds for residential care and the possibility that the school will become unviable. Will the Minister meet me, and perhaps consider visiting Horton Lodge, to see what we can do to ensure that that wonderful, special place continues to operate for many years to come?
Mrs Badenoch
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for raising this case in her constituency. Yes, that is something that we should be able to do for her.
Ruth Smeeth (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)
The Minister has just referred to a report which is currently under way, and which relates to children’s social services rather than the high-needs budget. The cuts proposed by Stoke-on-Trent City Council will cost every secondary school £100,000 and every primary school £50,000. That is money we cannot afford to spend. Will the Minister undertake to accept the request from my neighbour and hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Gareth Snell), and convene a meeting of headteachers before the Secretary of State signs off a deal?
Mrs Badenoch
We are aware that local authorities are facing significant pressures. That is why we are making an additional investment of more than £700 million, which will help them to manage those pressures next year. The Department has been looking at this matter, and we will be in touch with Stoke-on-Trent in due course to decide on the best possible actions to be taken in the future.
Mr Steve Reed (Croydon North) (Lab/Co-op)
I welcome the new Minister to her post. As she will know, children with special needs rely on help with speech and language and on counselling support, but the Children’s Commissioner has published research showing that the severe underfunding of those services is seriously damaging children’s lives and futures. Even after the spending review and the additional funding to which the Minister has referred, we still face a £1 billion shortfall in special educational needs services by 2021. Given that the Government could so easily find £1 billion to bribe the Democratic Unionist party, will the Minister agree, here and now, to find the same amount to fully fund the services that the country’s most vulnerable children so desperately need?
Mrs Badenoch
I met the Children’s Commissioner last week, and discussed this issue among many others. We welcome her report. However, I remind the hon. Gentleman that the Government are spending £7 billion on special educational needs, and are adding an additional £700 million. That is part of the extra £14 billion that we are spending over three years, and I think that it is to be welcomed.[Official Report, 25 September 2019, Vol. 664, c. 7MC.]
Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Ind)
The Minister for School Standards (Nick Gibb)
The Government remain committed to making the necessary changes to allow children to start reception at age five where this is what parents want.
Stephen Hammond
I thank my right hon. Friend for his answer. He will know that it is four years since we had an Adjournment debate on this and two years since I last asked him a question on this. I am very pleased to hear his answer, but can he commit to laying out the timetable as to when the Government might be able to publish that and potentially have a meeting with me to discuss the unintended consequences?
Nick Gibb
My hon. Friend has been a formidable campaigner on this issue, and I pay tribute to him for his work in this area. He will be aware that since my letter to local authorities the evidence shows that school admission authorities are becoming more flexible when receiving requests for children to start reception at age five.
But of course this will not be right for all children; the majority will do well in reception at age four, and the Government are therefore giving careful consideration to how we will make these changes in a way that avoids unintended consequences.
Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)
Does the Minister not agree with me that the best way to get all students, even those who are summer-born, ready for school is proper investment in the early years, and will he therefore pledge today that the Government will do what they said they would do a few weeks ago and ensure our maintained nursery schools get the full funding they need to continue?
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Has there been any discussion with counterparts in the devolved Assemblies to bring in a UK-wide strategy? If no discussion has taken place, when will it take place with the Department of Health in Northern Ireland to ensure that this does happen?
Mr Ranil Jayawardena (North East Hampshire) (Con)
The Minister for School Standards (Nick Gibb)
In 2019 King’s College London mathematics school reports that 100% of its students achieved a grade A or A* in A-level maths and 90% achieved an A* in A-level maths. The school also reports that more than 25% of its students in 2019 have secured Oxbridge places. This school and Exeter mathematics school are spectacular examples of the success of this Government’s free school programme, a programme that the Labour party wants to abolish.
Mr Jayawardena
I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply and commend the Government for what they are doing to level up funding, which I understand will mean another £2.9 million per year for schools in North East Hampshire, but will he expand that excellent specialist maths schools programme so that we can do even more for every child across this country?
Nick Gibb
Given the success of the two maths schools so far, we are committed to opening more maths schools as we continue to drive up academic standards and social mobility. There are four more in the pipeline, including the Surrey mathematics school, which should benefit young people in North East Hampshire. My hon. Friend will also be pleased to know that, due to the large increase in school funding announced last week, 100% of secondary schools in his constituency will benefit from the new minimum of at least £5,000 per pupil.
Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD)
The Secretary of State for Education (Gavin Williamson)
We have announced a £400 million increase in 16-to-19 funding in 2020-21; this is the biggest year-on-year increase since 2010 and will have great benefits for FE and sixth-form colleges. Colleges are independent organisations and are responsible for managing their own financial sustainability, which includes their liability for VAT.
Layla Moran
I thank the Secretary of State for his response, but does he believe, as I do, that no matter where a 16 to 19-year-old student studies they should have the same funding, resource and status, and if he does why do school sixth forms and 16-to-19 academies get their VAT refunded and the teacher pay grant but FE institutions, such as the brilliant Abingdon and Witney college in my constituency, do not?
Gavin Williamson
I am very conscious that this has been a long-running issue, and I remember from when I was a governor at a further education college the impact that this has. We are always looking at how we can reduce the impact, and that is why we have the funding settlement that we have achieved this year of £400 million plus £100 million for pension liability costs.
Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)
These funding announcements are extremely welcome in my constituency, and I have lobbied hard at all levels for these funding increases. Does the Secretary of State share my concern, however, that the Labour party has threatened to vote down the Queen’s Speech, which would mean that all these funding improvements would fall by the wayside?
Gavin Williamson
I should like to pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s campaigning to deliver better funding for schools and post-16 education in her constituency. Many of the actions of Labour Members and their reckless approach give me great concern as they seem unwilling to listen to the will of the British people.
Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Education (Gavin Williamson)
Leaving the European Union with a deal remains the Government’s top priority. We are working energetically and determinedly to get the very best deal. We are supporting the sector’s transition through Brexit, and have provided reassurance for EU nationals on access to student support for 2020-21, and on migration arrangements for staff and students.
Jeff Smith
But what about Erasmus? The Government’s technical notice has confirmed that if we leave with no deal, we will lose membership of the Erasmus programme. Given the benefits that it provides to tens of thousands of students, what assurance can the Secretary of State give to students that those benefits and the support provided will be maintained, and how is he going to achieve that?
Gavin Williamson
It goes without saying that we will always be looking to ensure that all students in the United Kingdom get the very best in terms of their education, and Erasmus has played an important part in that. If we were in a situation where we did not have access to it, we would look at successor schemes.
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)
Is my right hon. Friend aware that Israel, Canada, New Zealand and Australia are not in the EU but are members of the Erasmus programme?
Gavin Williamson
My hon. Friend makes the important point that there is an ability to access such schemes outside the European Union. This has been demonstrated in the past, and I am sure that it can be done in the future.
Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Education (Gavin Williamson)
To be registered under the new regulatory framework, all higher education providers must demonstrate that they are financially viable, sustainable and well-managed organisations that deliver high quality education. The Office for Students has currently registered more than 380 providers, which means that it has assessed those providers to be financially sustainable looking forward over a five-year period.
Matthew Pennycook
I thank the Secretary of State for his answer. Greenwich School of Management is unlikely to be the last private higher education provider to go bust in a system where market forces are the ultimate determinant of success, but it is of course the students and staff who pay the price. Can he tell me how many of the 3,500 GSM students—who are overwhelmingly mature, on low incomes and from minority groups—have been found a place at a new institution to date and have the financial support to finish their courses?
Gavin Williamson
I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising this important question. We have been working closely with GSM and the administrators to ensure that as many students as possible are transferred on to new courses if they are mid-course. At the moment, I do not have the data to answer his question, because how many accept this will come down to student choice, but as soon as we have the data I will of course write to him. The key focus has been to ensure that all those students get a place with an alternative provider.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
The Minister for School Standards (Nick Gibb)
The Prime Minister has announced a £14 billion increase in investment for schools in England, including for schools in Congleton. This means that by 2022-23, core schools funding will increase by £4.6 billion more than a real-terms protection, and we will be announcing further school-level details in October.
Fiona Bruce
I welcome this announcement, but what has concerned parents and teachers in my constituency and the wider Cheshire East area has been the historical underfunding of our local schools compared with those in other areas. So, to ensure truly fairer funding, will Ministers ensure that the Government’s schools budget boost specifically targets the biggest funding increases at schools in those areas that have been historically relatively underfunded?
Nick Gibb
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend, because it was as a result of her intervention that we introduced minimum per pupil funding into the national funding formula. She and her constituents will be pleased to know that, as a result of last week’s funding announcement, all seven of the secondary schools in her constituency will benefit from our pledge to level up per pupil funding to at least £5,000 per pupil, and that 16 primary schools in her constituency will benefit from the new level of at least £3,750 per pupil.
Judith Cummins (Bradford South) (Lab)
The Minister for School Standards (Nick Gibb)
Minimum per pupil values benefit the historically lowest-funded schools. We recognise that schools with more disadvantaged pupils require additional resources, and the national funding formula and pupil premium allocate additional funding in relation to disadvantaged pupils, so that schools with a higher proportion of disadvantaged pupils are the highest funded.
Judith Cummins
Pupils in disadvantaged areas are significantly less likely to pass crucial GCSEs such as English and maths. School funding must reflect different needs in different places, but the Government’s recent funding announcement will do exactly the opposite and sees more money going into affluent schools in the south of England while many schools in Bradford South will continue to lose out. How can the Minister justify that disgraceful situation?
Nick Gibb
Under this settlement, all schools will receive more money, at least in line with inflation, and schools with the highest proportions of children from disadvantaged backgrounds will receive the highest level of funding. Since 2011, we have closed the attainment gap by 9.5% in secondary schools and by 13% in primary schools.[Official Report, 25 September 2019, Vol. 664, c. 8MC.]
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
I thank the Schools Minister for the particular attention he has given to raising educational attainment in Northamptonshire and welcome the increase in funding for all schools, in particular the 14 primary schools and four secondary schools in Kettering, which have been historically the most underfunded.
Nick Gibb
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question. It has been a pleasure working with him and other colleagues from Northamptonshire to raise standards of education in the area. I am sure that he and his constituents will be pleased about the funding settlement for schools in Northamptonshire.
Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Lab/Co-op)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Mrs Kemi Badenoch)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question, which gives me another opportunity to let everyone know that the Government have announced an additional £14 billion for schools over the next three years, including the £700 million of high-needs funding for special educational needs and disabilities that we have been discussing.
Luke Pollard
Pupils with SEND account for nearly half the 41 pupils excluded from schools every day, which is contributing to the increase in the number of pupils being home schooled. What support is being given to pupils with SEND who are being home schooled?
Mrs Badenoch
We are going to be looking at that as part of a review into special educational needs and disabilities, and I refer the hon. Gentleman to the written ministerial statement that we laid before Parliament today.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Around 100 children in Harlow are without an education today as the Aspire Academy, run by TBAP, has closed yet again. Despite numerous meetings with Ministers and the academies commissioner, no action has yet been taken. Will my hon. Friend commit to the re-brokering of this school, so that a new academy can take it over and allow the children to return to their learning and the teachers to teaching? Mismanagement by the TBAP academy chain has gone on long enough.
Mrs Badenoch
An Ofsted inspection of the Aspire Academy in June 2019 rated the academy as inadequate and requiring special measures. The regional schools commissioner for east of England and north-east London issued a termination warning notice letter to TBAP, but a decision is yet to be made about the Aspire Academy and whether it will remain in the trust.
Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)
The Minister for School Standards (Nick Gibb)
As the independent inspectorate, Ofsted plays a vital role in providing a rounded assessment of school and college performance, and that role has helped to raise standards in our schools. Ofsted’s latest statement on its performance was set out in its annual report and accounts presented to Parliament in July, which reported solid operating performance across all areas of work.
Justin Madders
Two secondary schools in my constituency have had recent inspections, and both headteachers, whom I respect greatly, are appalled at how those inspections have been handled. We complained to Ofsted, and we had one side of A4 on the investigation into those complaints. Can we have a system in which Ofsted does not effectively mark its own homework?
Nick Gibb
I know the hon. Gentleman has been concerned about those inspections, and he met Ofsted’s north-west regional director. Ofsted is directly accountable to Parliament, and the vast majority of inspections go without incident. Ofsted has a quality assurance process and a complaints procedure to deal with those rare instances where it does not go according to plan.
Alberto Costa (South Leicestershire) (Con)
At the last Ofsted inspection, Red Hill Field Primary School was marked as good. The school is celebrating its 35-year anniversary this Friday. What message does the Minister have for that excellent school, for Mr Snelson, the headteacher, and for all the staff on their excellent work over 35 years?
Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP)
The Secretary of State for Education (Gavin Williamson)
We recently announced a £14.4 billion investment in primary and secondary education between now and 2022-23. This is in addition to the £4.5 billion we will continue to provide to fund additional pension costs for teachers over the next three years. I will be working with schools to ensure this money delivers on our priorities to recruit and retain the best teachers, to continue boosting school standards and to tackle poor classroom behaviour. We are also investing an extra £400 million in 16-to-19 education next year, demonstrating our commitment to teaching our young people the skills needed for well-paid jobs in the modern economy.[Official Report, 25 September 2019, Vol. 664, c. 8MC.]
Stuart C. McDonald
Universities are desperately keen to see a proper two-year post-study work visa restored, and it looked as if the Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill would be the vehicle for that. If that Bill falls because of tonight’s Prorogation outrage, can the Secretary of State say when and how a proper two-year post-study work visa will be restored?
Gavin Williamson
I assure the hon. Gentleman that we will keep the House updated on the progress on this, and we are continually looking and working across government on the matter.
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
Gavin Williamson
I promise my right hon. Friend that we will bring plenty of vim and vigour to this, and I will be looking at it closely.
Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab/Co-op)
At long last, after years of calls from the Labour party, settings, academics and even Select Committees, last week the Government finally offered some new funding for the 30-hour childcare policy. Sadly, predictions say it is only 10% of what is required to plug the funding black hole.
May I push the new Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education, whom I very much welcome to her place, on how this funding will be spent? Will it be targeted to support outstanding providers that are struggling, to increase the amount of high-quality provision in disadvantaged areas and to reverse the disturbing trend of experienced staff leaving the sector?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Mrs Kemi Badenoch)
Members on both sides of the House care very much about this area. The Government continue to support families with their childcare costs, and we are now spending more than £3.6 billion on support to 2021.
Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Ind)
Gavin Williamson
I assure my hon. Friend that we will be writing to him in due course with full details of the national funding formula—we hope this will be in early October—and the impact this will have on individual schools .
Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
Mrs Badenoch
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that question. There are 50,000 more pupils eligible for free school meals at the moment. There is much that this Government are doing, and we will continue to look at ways in which we can improve circumstances for disadvantaged children.
Craig Tracey (North Warwickshire) (Con)
Gavin Williamson
The announcement we made just the other week goes a long way towards rectifying the issue that my hon. Friend has highlighted. The national funding formula will ensure that all schools start to really benefit from the increases in funding, wherever they are in the country. This is making sure that the needs of pupils are the focus, as against where they happen to be in the country. May I pay tribute to him for the campaigning he has done for the schools in his constituency to secure the settlement?
John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
Mrs Badenoch
We are spending £3.6 billion on early educational entitlement, and the Government have provided free childcare for children aged three to four years. I am not sure that I heard the right hon. Gentleman’s question properly, but I think that if he writes to me, I will be able to provide him with a more comprehensive response.
Mr William Wragg (Hazel Grove) (Con)
Gavin Williamson
I thank my hon. Friend for such a kind invite. I know that he has campaigned hard and vigorously to get a better settlement for schools in his constituency and right around the country. I would be more than delighted to join him in his constituency, and I hope to make the figures available for all schools in the coming weeks.
Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)
The Minister for School Standards (Nick Gibb)
The hon. Gentleman will be aware, from the funding settlement, that we are increasing funding for high needs—for special needs—by £700 million. That is an 11% increase, and it is because we absolutely recognise the cost pressures that schools and local authorities have been under when it comes to special needs. We hope that the funding announcement made last week by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will go some way to addressing those concerns.
David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con)
I thank the education team for giving £5.5 million for upgrades in secondary schools in my area. Recently, however, there has been a disturbing turn of events. Skerton Community High School was closed down by the Labour county council, but it is being hypocritically targeted for an erroneous campaign to reopen it by the Labour party. The school has been closed for five years. Will my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State write to me to tell me what is going to happen to this school in the future and whether it could be used for an academy?
Gavin Williamson
May I take the opportunity to pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the campaigning he always undertakes to deliver the very best for all the schools in his constituency and the campaigning he has done to get the increase in school funding we announced just the other week? I would be more than happy to write to him and to meet with him to discuss this important issue for his constituency.
Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Lab/Co-op)
Gavin Williamson
I can absolutely assure the hon. Gentleman that that is very much the case. It is very important that we teach children about the Britain we live in today.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
I welcome the additional revenue funding for schools in Staffordshire. Will the Secretary of State outline the plans for capital funding, of which there is an urgent need in Staffordshire and in many other schools across the country?
Gavin Williamson
I always recall that when my hon. Friend and I were first elected to the House we, as constituency neighbours, campaigned very hard to get a better funding settlement for Staffordshire, but also for all schools across the country. We are working on the capital settlement, and we will be working with the Treasury to bring forward announcements in the not-too-distant future.
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)
For pupils on free school meals, buying water at lunchtime can cost up to 80p of their allowance, which is often more than the fruit juices and milkshakes available. Does the Secretary of State agree that free water should be available, with cups and bottles, for all pupils in all our schools?
Gavin Williamson
The hon. Lady is absolutely right. No child should ever be expected to pay for water, and no school should ever deny a child access to fresh water. It is a legal requirement for all schools to make water available. If she would be kind enough to forward details of where water is not available, we will be sure to follow it up.
Peter Heaton-Jones (North Devon) (Con)
May I thank the Minister for listening to all our lobbying about the need for North Devon schools to have their funding equalised fairly? That investment will make a huge difference. Will he now come back to North Devon to see what a difference it will make, and to thank staff and students for all their hard work?
Gavin Williamson
My hon. Friend is always campaigning for his constituents, whether to save Royal Marine bases or to get more money for his schools. I would be delighted to join him in visiting the schools in his constituency that will receive the extra money that he has campaigned for and delivered.
Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab)
In the summer of 2019, Wandsworth food bank handed out 1,024 emergency food parcels to families, which was a 40% increase on last year. It has reported to me that families are having to choose between buying food and buying school uniforms. Will the Minister now publish the estimated figures for the number of children who have gone hungry this summer?
Mrs Badenoch
I thank the hon. Lady for that question. We do not collect that information, but the Department has other schemes that are seeking to address the issue, including our holiday activities and food programme, which has supported children from disadvantaged families over the past two summers.
Maria Caulfield (Lewes) (Con)
Female students at Priory School in Lewes were excluded on Friday simply for wearing skirts, which goes against the school’s new uniform policy. They are excluded today and will continue to be excluded until they wear trousers. What support can the Minister give to the families and pupils affected?
Nick Gibb
Decisions about school uniform are made at school level by headteachers and governing bodies. In formulating a uniform policy, a school must consider its obligations not to discriminate unlawfully. I would be very happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss her work to try to resolve the issue locally.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
I am sure that if I did not call a retired headteacher, I would be subject to the most condign punishment imaginable. I call Thelma Walker.
Thelma Walker (Colne Valley) (Lab)
Thank you, Mr Speaker—10 out of 10.
I recently spoke on BBC Radio Leeds about the number of young people who suffer trauma and bereavement just before sitting exams and who often do not get the appropriate support and bereavement counselling. Will the Secretary of State meet me to discuss adequate counselling provision for those going through such a difficult time?
Neil O’Brien (Harborough) (Con)
I really welcome the extra money for special educational needs. Will my right hon. Friend look closely at improving school transport for 16 to 19-year-olds with special needs so that we can further improve conditions for the most needy children?
Nick Gibb
My hon. Friend makes a very important point. It is important that we allow opportunities to be widely available to children and to young people, regardless of their special needs. Bursaries are available for particular children, and that funding can be used for transport. I would be very happy to meet him so that we can take this issue forward together.
Laura Smith (Crewe and Nantwich) (Lab)
A quarter of people in my constituency are now reported to be living in in-work poverty, so is it no wonder that I know of desperate families unable to pay for their children’s school uniforms. Will the Minister consider introducing a statutory duty for schools to prioritise cost considerations and value for money for parents when deciding uniform policy and a ban on compulsory branding if this means families incurring additional costs?
Nick Gibb
The Department’s current guidance on school uniform does place an extra emphasis on the need for schools to give the highest priority to cost consideration. No school uniform should be so expensive as to leave pupils or their families feeling unable to apply for or to attend a school of their choice due to the cost of the school uniform. If the hon. Lady has examples of schools that are not abiding by that guidance, I would be very grateful if she let me know.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
I have called a distinguished headteacher to speak, so I must call a distinguished nurse. I call Anne Milton.
Anne Milton (Guildford) (Ind)
The correlation between good education and good health has long been known, not least by Professor Sir Michael Marmot in his 2010 report. With that in mind, surely it is now the time to give further education the long-term funding that it needs.
Gavin Williamson
I know that my right hon. Friend is passionate about this matter and has campaigned on it. By setting out a three-year deal for schools, I appreciate that that has raised everyone’s expectation right across the education sector for three-year deals for everyone. It is something that we continue to look at. It was vital that we got the extra £400 million for 16 to 19-year-olds, and we continue to have discussions about how we can set out a longer-term future for all sectors in the education market.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
Order. I shall come to points of order in due time and I shall bear all those hon. Members in mind.
Speaker’s Statement
(5 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Mr Speaker
Colleagues, I would like to make a personal statement to the House.
At the 2017 election, I promised my wife and children that it would be my last. This is a pledge that I intend to keep. If the House votes tonight for an early general election, my tenure as Speaker and MP will end when this Parliament ends. If the House does not so vote, I have concluded that the least disruptive and most democratic course of action would be for me to stand down at the close of business on Thursday 31 October. [Applause.] The least disruptive, because that date will fall shortly after the votes on the Queen’s Speech, expected on 21 and 22 October. The week or so after that may be quite lively, and it would be best to have an experienced figure in the Chair for that short period. The most democratic, because it will mean that a ballot is held when all Members have some knowledge of the candidates. This is far preferable to a contest at the beginning of a Parliament, when new MPs will not be similarly informed and may find themselves vulnerable to undue institutional influence. We would not want anyone to be whipped senseless, would we?
Throughout my time as Speaker I have sought to increase the relative authority of this legislature, for which I will make absolutely no apology to anyone, anywhere, at any time. To deploy a perhaps dangerous phrase, I have also sought to be the Back Benchers’ backstop. I could not do so without the support of a small but superb team in Speaker’s House; the wider House staff; my Buckingham constituents; and, above all, my wife Sally and our three children, Oliver, Freddie and Jemima. [Applause.] From the bottom of my heart, I thank them all profusely.
I could also not have served without the repeated support of this House and its Members, past and present. This is a wonderful place, filled overwhelmingly by people who are motivated by their notion of the national interest, by their perception of the public good and by their duty—not as delegates, but as representatives—to do what they believe is right for our country. We degrade this Parliament at our peril.
I have served as a Member of Parliament for 22 years, and for the last 10 years as Speaker. This has been—let me put it explicitly—the greatest privilege and honour of my professional life, for which I will be eternally grateful. I wish my successor in the Chair the very best fortune in standing up for the rights of hon. and right hon. Members individually, and for Parliament institutionally, as the Speaker of the House of Commons. Thank you. [Applause.]
You really are a very, very, very generous bunch of people indeed. Thank you, on both sides of the House, for the expressions of support, which I richly appreciate. I love this place, you love this place, and we look forward to the future with interest, anticipation and enthusiasm.
Points of Order
(5 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to put on record my thanks to you for being a superb Speaker of this House, my thanks to you as a colleague in Parliament, and my thanks to your family for the way in which they have supported you through often very difficult times when many of the media have been very unfair on you. Your two sons are getting good at football. I did some kicks with them in Speaker’s Court the other day and I was very impressed, actually; they are coming on well. And I know you support the same club as me.
In your role as Speaker, you have totally changed the way in which the job has been done. You have reached out to people across the whole country. You have visited schools, you have visited factories, you have visited offices; you have talked to people about the role of Parliament and democracy. I have never forgotten you coming to City and Islington College in my constituency and spending the morning with me talking to a group of students, all of whom had learning difficulties, and we discussed with them the roles of democracy and Parliament.
You have taken absolutely on board the words of Speaker Lenthall that you are there to be guided by and act on behalf of our Parliament. This Parliament is the stronger for your being Speaker. Our democracy is the stronger for your being the Speaker. Whatever you do when you finally step down from Parliament, you do so with the thanks of a very large number of people, and as one who has made the role of Speaker in the House more powerful, not less powerful. I welcome that. As somebody who aspires to hold Executive office, I like the idea of a powerful Parliament holding the Executive to account; it is something I have spent the last 35 years doing myself.
So, Mr Speaker, enjoy the last short period in your office, but it is going to be one of the most dramatic there has been. I think your choice of timing and date is incomparable and will be recorded in the history books of parliamentary democracy. Mr Speaker, on behalf of the Labour party I thank you for your work in promoting democracy and this House. Thank you.
Mr Speaker
Thank you. I just say to the right hon. Gentleman, the Leader of the Opposition, that he is very much more experienced and senior than I, but I think that as Back Benchers in our respective parties we did have quite a lot in common. Certainly, speaking for myself, as a Back Bencher, and frequently as an Opposition Front Bencher, I found that I had a relationship with my Whips characterised by trust and understanding—I didn’t trust them and they didn’t understand me.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Michael Gove)
Further to that a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would like, perhaps for the first time, to associate myself wholeheartedly with the comments of the Leader of the Opposition. Since you entered the House of Commons in 1997, it has been clear to everyone who has seen you work as a diligent constituency MP, an effective Back Bencher, and also a tenacious Front Bencher in your time, that you love this House of Commons, you love our democracy, and your commitment to your principles and your constituents is unwavering and an example to others.
This evening I shall vote with many of my colleagues for an early general election. I hope you will not take that personally, Mr Speaker, because I have no wish to prematurely truncate your time in the Chair. However controversial the role of a backstop may be in other areas, your role as the Back Benchers’ backstop has certainly been appreciated by individuals across this House. I have spent much, though not all, of the last 10 years as a member of the Executive, but I have also been a Back Bencher in this House, and I have personally appreciated the way in which you have always sought to ensure that the Executive answer for their actions. History will record the way in which you have used the urgent question procedure and other procedures to hold the Executive to account and have restored life and vigour to Parliament, and in so doing, you have been in the very best tradition of Speakers.
From time to time, those of us on the Government Benches might have bridled at some of the judgments you have made, but I have never been in any doubt that you have operated on the basis that the Executive must be answerable to this House in the same way as this House is answerable to the people. You have done everything in your power to ensure not just the continued but the underlined relevance of this place. Your love of democracy is transparent in everything that you say and do, and as such, I want, on behalf of myself as an individual and on behalf of the Conservative party, to thank you. As a fellow parent of pupils at a distinguished west London comprehensive, may I also say how important it is that discipline is maintained in this House? Your energetic efforts to do so are appreciated even by those of us who may not always be the best behaved in class.
Mr Speaker
I thank the right hon. Gentleman. That was characteristically generous and gracious of him. At the risk of inflicting some damage upon his otherwise flourishing political career, I have on more than one occasion paid public tribute to the quality of the right hon. Gentleman. One of the reasons why he does not complain about urgent questions being granted, to which he has at short notice to answer, is that he is quick enough, bright enough, sharp enough, fair-minded enough, articulate enough and dextrous enough to be able to cope with whatever is thrown at him. I do not want this to become a mutual admiration society, because I am not sure whether it would be more damaging to him or me, but I thank him for what he said, for the way in which he said it and for the spirit that his remarks embody.
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I would not seek for a minute to challenge your decision, not least because you would rule me out of order, but I have to say that I regret it and respect it. I say that for this reason. When the history books come to be written, you will be described as one of the great reforming Speakers of the House of Commons. You have indeed been the Back Benchers’ friend and supporter, but in every decision you have made, you have put one consideration above everything else: your wish to enable the House of Commons to discuss matters and to express a view.
There have been occasions when some in the House have taken umbrage at decisions that you have reached, but you have stood by your beliefs and principles, and many Members of this House are eternally grateful to you for having stood up for our rights, enabling us to debate and then to vote on something. The fact that the Speaker decides that something should be debated is not the Speaker saying that the House should agree it; it is the Speaker saying that we should be able to cast our vote. That is why we will regard you in that light for many, many years to come. Thank you very much indeed.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
I call my very loyal and brilliant next-door neighbour of over 20 years in constituency terms, Mr David Lidington.
Mr David Lidington (Aylesbury) (Con)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. May I—as an elector in the Buckingham constituency, not least—offer an expression of thanks to you for your work as a constituency Member of Parliament over the past 22 years? Talking to neighbours and acquaintances in all parts of the Buckingham constituency over the years that you have represented it, I have been struck by the fact that men and women of very different political persuasions, and indeed those of no particular party affiliation, are united in their appreciation of the fact that you have never allowed your considerable duties as Speaker of the House to detract from your responsibility to represent their interests in Buckingham and to respond to the concerns that they raise with you. Colleagues in all parts of the House will speak about your record as Speaker, but those of us in Buckinghamshire will know how you have continued to speak on and champion local interests and local issues.
I know, too, that you will be missed among the somewhat eclectic team of hon. and right hon. Members representing the county of Buckinghamshire. It is perhaps a good measure of the fact that in this place, despite frequent clashes and disagreements, we can still manage to get on. Those Buckinghamshire parliamentary meetings bring together not just you and me but my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Dame Cheryl Gillan) and both my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) and my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker) in a spirit of harmony, at least on county matters.
I thank you for what you have done for us locally and, if I may say so as a former Leader of the House, for what you have done to communicate more to people, particularly to schoolchildren and students around the country, about how this place works and the constitutional significance of Parliament in defending the liberties and debating the interests of the next generation.
Mr Speaker
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for what he has said. I want to observe—others will bear testimony to this, in the light of what he has just said— that the right hon. Gentleman was, frankly, an outstanding Leader of the House of Commons. He is one of the most co-operative and collaborative colleagues whom one could hope to meet. He gets things done, he is extremely personable, and I think it is fair to say that he works based on periodic political difference but continuing personal amiability. If others of us were able to model ourselves on the way in which he has gone about his work over the last 27 years as a Member of Parliament, we would probably be doing better. I thank him for what he has said.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
We must proceed before too long, but I do apologise very sincerely to the right hon. Gentleman—the leader of the third party in this House—for failing to see him at an earlier point, which I should have done.
Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. On behalf of those of us on the SNP Benches, may I say that we will be sad to see you leave office at the end of October? It is fair to say that you have shown considerable grace and purpose—not just to us, but to Members across this House. We are eternally grateful for the way in which you have conducted yourself, particularly over these last few months—at a time, let us be honest, of constitutional crisis for all of us—and for the way you have facilitated Back Benchers, in particular, in being able to hold the Executive to account and, indeed, in making sure that those of us whom people send to this place are able to do our job to the best of our endeavours in representing their interests.
Like the Leader of the Opposition, we are grateful that you will be with us until the end of October, and we look forward to the guidance and supervision you will give to our affairs over the coming weeks. You have been a great friend to many of us in this House. We wish every good wish to you and your family for the coming period. You will always get a friendly welcome in Scotland, and indeed we would love to see you up in Ross, Skye and Lochaber. Mr Speaker, thank you very much on behalf of all of us.
Dame Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. As you know, at the beginning of this Parliament, you asked me if I would propose you for the Chair, and I was very pleased to do so. I made the immortal statement:
“I think he annoys Members on all the Front Benches from time to time, which is probably testament to his even-handedness.”—[Official Report, 13 June 2017; Vol. 626, c. 4.]
I think there was not a dry eye in the House, because that was true.
I have to add my voice to that of my Buckinghamshire colleague, my right hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr Lidington), for the simple reason that, as a colleague in Buckinghamshire, you have been absolutely superb. Speaking as the only female representative of a constituency in Buckinghamshire, I sometimes find it necessary to keep some of you boys under control, because you do not always quite see eye to eye—with me.
I rise to my feet to say a big thank you to you for something else you have done in your time as Speaker. You have hosted events for more than 1,000 charities in Speaker’s House. You have been a true champion of people with autism. Today, as the all-party parliamentary group publishes a report on the 10 years since the Autism Act 2009, I pay tribute to everything you have done, particularly for charitable works, but also for people and families with autism.
I have one great regret, knowing that you are going to stand down. I will lose a great champion in my fight against HS2, and I very much hope that when you retire from the House, whatever you do, you will continue to join me in the fight against HS2 and continue, most importantly, to champion those people with autism and their families.
Mr Speaker
I thank the right hon. Lady for what she said, and for all the good fellowship that she and I have enjoyed over the 22 years I have been in the House with her.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
It is as matter of seniority as well as a magnificent tie. I call Mr Barry Sheerman.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I remember that when I first met you I went home to my wife and said, “I’ve met this really bumptious, self-opinionated, right-wing, objectionable character.” I could say that you haven’t changed, but the fact of the matter is that you have been an exemplary Speaker. You have been Parliament’s Speaker. I have been here quite a long time, so I have seen people organising the Speaker’s election—usually the Whips. You broke that tradition—we broke that tradition, cross-party. We wanted you, and we denied the Whips their choice, and we got you. Those of us who have been around this place for some time do not regret for a moment that we got Parliament’s Speaker. You have proved that we were right in our choice.
You have been magnificent in the way you have gone around the country. I remember the occasion—we planned it well in advance—when you chose to come to Huddersfield for the whole day. Unfortunately, it was the day after the referendum. It was quite an interesting atmosphere. I remember you getting to Huddersfield and saying, “This is an awfully long way, isn’t it, Barry?” However, you did get about, and you saw how constituents worked. You came to the University of Huddersfield, and you did the job well.
You also, as Speaker, have been the champion of the Back Bencher. The people on the Front Benches—the Whips—love to have their own way. You were determined to let people like me—a Back Bencher—and other Back Benchers have their say. There has been a renaissance of Parliament under your speakership. I hope only that we get someone half as good as you when we single-mindedly, happily, diversely, and democratically choose your successor. Thank you for everything you have done for parliamentary democracy.
Mr Speaker
Bless you, Barry, for what you have said. [Interruption.] Will hon. Members forgive me? I call Mr Dominic Grieve.
Mr Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Ind)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. As another Buckinghamshire MP, I could not fail to rise to say words of thanks to you for what you have done.
You may recall—it is perhaps worth recalling—that when you were first elected Speaker I think I was the only person in the Chamber who did not stand to applaud you. That was for two reasons. First, I rather disapprove of these displays and, secondly, my preferences lay elsewhere. I think I also indicated to you subsequently that I would do my very best to support you. As the years have gone by, I have come to appreciate that in the extraordinary times in which we live, your leadership of this House has been, in my judgment, exemplary in standing up for the rights of Back Benchers. You will undoubtedly go down as such, setting a benchmark that, built on by future Speakers, will enable the House to operate very much better.
As for Buckinghamshire, Mr Speaker, you will undoubtedly be missed. I sometimes think in the troubled times in which we live, it is time to return to those 17th-century practices of setting up county associations and deciding to keep the rest of the world out, because we would then find that we agree with each other 100%.
Mr Speaker
I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for what he said. I regard him as a quite exceptional parliamentarian, so to receive a tribute from him means a great deal to me, and I think he knows that.
Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I am one of those who originally supported you when you stood, in quite troubled times and unexpectedly, to be the Speaker. I did so because you had already demonstrated to me and to others that you were open-minded enough to have gone on a journey. People have not expressed this particular part of you yet in these points of order, but your commitment to equality, women, LGBT people and the disabled, to ensure proper inclusion for everyone in our country and in our politics, is perhaps the thing that has most impressed me.
We worked together behind the scenes when I was shadow Leader of the House. I know how committed, in very difficult times, and wrestling with a rather conservative and hidebound institution, you have been. For that reason alone—for your determination, your judgment, your confidence in your judgment, your deep understanding of the way our Parliament works and your willingness to stand up for the rights of Back Benchers against some of the most ferocious behaviour by Government—you will be remembered as one of the great reforming Speakers.
I hope that, as you get your evenings back, and as you will be able to make a choice about which chair you sit in and for how long—
Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)
And go to the toilet! [Laughter.]
Ms Eagle
Well, Mr Speaker, I was not going to mention your bladder, and I am still not.
I hope that as you look back and reflect on all these tumultuous times you will look back with satisfaction on the role you have played, because you deserve to do so. You have been an outstanding Speaker and I wish to add my thanks to the spontaneous tributes we are hearing now. Thank you.
Mr Speaker
I thank the hon. Lady. Put simply, I have been very lucky. If you do for a living something that causes you to jump out of bed in the morning looking forward to the day ahead, then frankly you are blessed.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. You have been an extraordinary Speaker—an outstanding Speaker. Over the past few weeks, I have very much disagreed with your interpretation of certain Standing Orders, but for the 14 years I have been here you have transformed this place. You used to sit behind me on the Opposition Benches heckling the Government like mad—and then I hear the nerve, Sir, of you telling us off for heckling! I hope, when we forget the Brexit period, you will be remembered for completely transforming this place and allowing Back Benchers to do their job, and for allowing new Members the opportunity to fulfil a career as a Back Bencher while not necessarily wanting to be a Minister.
Mr Speaker
The hon. Gentleman speaks from personal experience as a parliamentarian who is always ready to speak truth to power. I identify with him. What he says, not least in the light of some of his recent disagreements with me, is big of him.
Lucy Powell
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to associate myself with everything that has been said so far, except perhaps the remarks about HS2.
May I just add a couple of points that have not been mentioned? First, without your family-friendly reforms to this place, particularly the opening of the nursery, your willingness to introduce proxy voting, and allowing babies and young children into the Lobby, I and many others in this place, mothers and fathers alike, would not have been able to carry out our duties and to carry on being Members of Parliament. I thank you enormously for those changes and reforms.
In your time as Speaker, probably the most difficult event was the murder of our friend, Jo Cox. You gave leadership to this whole place, to our collective grief and to the grief of her community and her family, visiting her constituency the day after her terrible murder. I know her family would want me to thank you from the bottom of their hearts for your leadership at that very, very difficult time for this House.
Mr Speaker
Thank you. As everybody here knows, Jo was very special, and she will remain in our hearts for as long as we live.
Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. As a Buckinghamshire colleague, it has been a huge pleasure and privilege to work alongside you to further the interests of our constituents—I say “our constituents” because I fondly remember occasions on which I have needed to speak in this place on your behalf, and it has been my privilege and pleasure to do so. It would be graceless of me, of course, to refer to anything where I might possibly have disagreed with you, but I just say that it is perfectly plain to me that you love this place and this Parliament, and I am grateful for all your service.
Mr Speaker
I thank the hon. Gentleman; he is a conviction politician, and that deserves respect.
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I express thanks from those on the Liberal Democrat Benches for your decade of service in the Chair.
Very often, to those outside, Parliament can appear stuffy and out of touch. Some of the initiatives that have come in on your watch, including the Wright reforms, with topical questions, and your willingness to grant urgent questions have meant that when people talk about issues outside this place we can discuss them in a timely way in the House, and that has been important.
I was very moved by your tribute to your wife and children, because the families of all of us in this place put up with a lot for us to do the jobs that we do. I echo the comments of the hon. Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell) about the reforms that you have made possible, including the parliamentary nursery, babies being able to be in voting Lobbies—indeed, your forbearance in not asking me to leave when I brought baby Gabriel into this House—and the proxy voting reforms, which have already made such a difference for Members with small babies during these rather intense few months of parliamentary debate. Those reforms have been truly important and you have been a truly modernising Speaker. As I am sure you would agree, there is much more to do, and I hope that whoever is your successor will continue in that tradition.
Finally, you have been an absolutely unstinting guardian of parliamentary democracy at a time when people feel the need to take to the streets to argue to defend our democracy. I think back to my first term in this place, between 2005 and 2010. If you had asked me at the time to pinpoint the most important vote that I cast in those five years, I am not convinced that I would have chosen that vote in 2009, but choosing you to be Speaker of this House was arguably the most important vote cast for the future of our country and our parliamentary democracy. I am very glad that I and others in this House made that choice.
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. So far, we have mainly heard from distinguished Members on the two Front Benches or immediately prior Members, but I speak on behalf of the permanent, or semi-permanent, Back Benchers, who either by their own wish, or in my case because nobody has ever asked me, have not joined the Front Bench team in recent years. Although I have not followed you in your political journey and on many occasions you have absolutely infuriated me, I have to say, on behalf of Back Benchers, that there is one thing that nobody can ever take away from you: you have been determined to give a voice to those people in this place who want to ask real questions of the Executive. For this, we will always be grateful.
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. He was, of course, a talented Minister but I have always thought, because I know that his career came to a premature end, that he suffered from the notable disadvantage, as a member of the Government, of not only holding opinions, but feeling inclined, with notable frequency—whether wanted or not—to express them. That seemed to me why he was removed from the Government, but the Executive’s loss was Parliament’s gain.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I would like to add our party’s thanks to you. You have always been the Back Bencher’s champion. You have called me as often as the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman). You often chastise me gently for saying “you”, but can I say that you have done excellently for Back Benchers? I will try hard not to use that word on other occasions. You have called me to order a few times, but gently, with your humour, kindness and good will, have enabled me to learn the protocols of this House in a way that I hope will stay with me for some time to come. Even with my Ulster Scots and my accent, you always seem to understand me.
You mentioned Sally and your children. The most important thing for us all in the House is the sanity we get when we go back to our families. They are incredibly important. As you know, I turn up for the Adjournment debate every night, and you are always here as well. I will miss you when you are not here. Whatever you do in this world, I know that you will do it well. I wish you well. I wish your family well. Godspeed and God bless.
Mr Speaker
Colleagues, I hope you will forgive me if I say this very publicly to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). I bet others have noticed it—I certainly have, ever since he came into the House and we got to know each other. The hon. Gentleman is a person of strong religious faith. As it happens, I am not. I have always been proud of my Jewish roots and my Jewish identity, but I am not a practising religious person. What I admire about the hon. Gentleman—and it makes him a most lovable figure in the House of Commons—is that he radiates warmth, empathy and compassion. He is one of those people of faith who do not spend time preaching it but live it.
Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Such is the length of our relationship and our friendship, which has been long suspected and about which I think we can now come clean, that I rushed here from Lincolnshire when I heard the news of your imminent departure. In an age of technocratic turgidity and mechanistic mediocrity, you have brought colour and style to this place. No one could deny your eloquence or your extraordinary, encyclopaedic grasp of facts, of which we are all envious. I do not know how you manage to remember not only facts about our constituencies but our birthdays, wedding anniversaries, children’s names—what don’t you remember, Mr Speaker?
You have given life to this place in a way that few could ever have managed and few of your predecessors achieved. You have made this place far more interesting than it would have been without you. But there is something else that is rarely said about you, and it is this. I fully recognise your sensitivity and humanity. There are countless acts of kindness that you have shown Members of this House that are never publicised—because they would not be by their nature—and to which it is only fair now to draw attention. When Members have had difficulties of one sort or another—the trials and tribulations which are the inevitable consequences of life here—you have always been there for them. That work as our Speaker needs to be recorded and celebrated, and acknowledged today. I will miss you not only for your indulgence, of which I have been a frequent beneficiary, as you well know, but for your character and style, and that will last long after you leave the Chair, as I hope our friendship will.
Mr Speaker
Let me say to the right hon. Gentleman that our friendship will endure for a long time to come. Among other things that we have in common, we share a passion for, and a slightly obsessive preoccupation with, historical statistics relating to tennis.
By the way, I have never lost any sleep over a work-related matter, because it is not worth doing. The nights without sleep that I have tended to experience over the years, and doubtless will do so in the future, have ordinarily been during either the US Open or the Australian Open, when, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, my normal practice is to forgo sleep if the alternative is the opportunity to watch my all-time sporting hero, Roger Federer.
Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (IGC)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. You and I first came across each other well over 40 years ago, when we were both members of the Conservative party as students. I could not possibly repeat the language of the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), but I do endorse the “right-wing” bit. I, of course, was what was known then as a proud wet, and was certainly on the pink liberal wing of the Conservative party. Although our journey and our route have been somewhat different, I rather suspect that we are back together in our new place, and that will be interesting, as will all that follows. But I remember that when you were a student, you had a huge passion for politics and for Parliament, and, of course, you were hugely eloquent even then. All those things have served you well for many years, in your role as a Member of Parliament but also in your role as Speaker, but, most important, they have served this place hugely well.
I will not repeat, but will just endorse, all the fine tributes about the great reforms that you have made to this place, especially on behalf of women, but also on behalf of all the young people in my constituency and the children who have come to this place in a way that previous generations certainly did not, who have learned so much and who have felt engaged.
Finally, I want to apologise on behalf of the small group of us who, by virtue of our appalling behaviour, found ourselves founder members of the “Three Bs”. When I come back, as I think I will at some stage—[Interruption]—yes, that is right, if we have any such general election—I will bring you the little badge that I have with the three Bs, which stand for “Bollocked By Bercow”. I am very proud of my membership of that club. But, on behalf of my merry band—and, indeed, all of us—I thank you for everything that you have done, and the great service that you have given to this place.
Mr Speaker
As the hon. Gentleman says from a sedentary position, we have got until October, but first of all we must hear from Mr David Lammy.
Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Much has been said, obviously, by Members of Parliament in this place, but I want to put on record what I suspect are deep thanks in huge parts of the country, and to echo absolutely what has been said by, in particular, my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle).
I was in the House after the riots of 2011, and I thank you, Mr Speaker, for helping to recall the House to debate that very important subject. I also thank you for, most recently, after a scandal that involved people with Caribbean backgrounds, granting my urgent question that allowed the revelation of that scandal. So many issues concerning minorities in this country could so easily have remained on the fringes, as has been the case during previous decades in our country—thank you for putting them at the centre of the action in this Parliament.
Thank you, also, for appointing Rose Hudson-Wilkin as the Chaplain when the establishment might have preferred a different choice. Yes, the role of Speaker is to be part of the establishment, but it takes a giant—and, of course, you are not a giant—to stand up to that establishment and never be cowed. The next Speaker will have very, very big shoes to fill.
Mr Speaker
That is extraordinarily eloquent and generous. I do not want to comment on anything the right hon. Gentleman has said about me but I want instead to endorse in triplicate what he has just said about the Right Rev. Rose Hudson-Wilkin, Chaplain to the Speaker of the House of Commons, a great servant to Parliament, in her place in the Under Gallery now, a source of comfort and inspiration to me for the last nine years. There has not been a single day when I have not felt delighted and reinforced in my insistence, and it was my insistence, that Rose should be appointed to that role. There is always scope for legitimate difference of opinion, but there were people—part of what I have to say outside of this place I will call the bigot faction—who volunteered their views as to what an inapposite appointment I had made with all the force and insistence at their disposal, which sadly from their point of view were in inverse proportion to their knowledge of the subject matter under discussion. They had not met Rose, they did not know her, they could not form a view; they had a stupid, dim-witted, atavistic, racist and rancid opposition to the Rev. Rose. I was right, they were wrong: the House loves her. [Applause.]
Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to say a huge thank you for all that you have done for Back Benchers and for democracy, especially throughout this time as we discuss Brexit. I also want to thank you for all the firsts you have done in the House. In the Stonewall list of LGBT+ employers, Parliament has moved up now to 23rd; I think we were down in the 70s and 80s before. Parliament has been ranked as one of the best 100 employers at the race equality awards; that is because of your guidance and leadership, Mr Speaker. And thank you for appointing Rev. Rose; I think she is in the corner crying, with the rest of us. Thank you so much, Mr Speaker; she has been amazing, as have you.
We have also had the first Muslim Serjeant at Arms and the first female Clerk Assistant of the House, and young people being allowed to debate in this Chamber has come under you, Mr Speaker. There are also all the charity events that you have held in Speaker’s House—such as for British sign language and the Windrush—and being able to raise the flag for International Women’s Day outside Parliament for the first time, and Black History Month. I could go on about all that you have done to modernise this place, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart, Mr Speaker.
I hope you can just bear with me, Mr Speaker, because equality is a theme that you have championed. Following last week’s resignation, I am deeply concerned that the position that I shadow, Minister for Women and Equalities, remains vacant, and that, with more than half of the current Cabinet opposed to equal marriage, this brief has been undermined deliberately to roll back the hard fought-for rights and protections. Mr Speaker, being a bit of a “girly swot”, I have calculated that when the next person is appointed they will be the 10th to be appointed to the brief since 2010. The post has moved Departments four times, and a new Minister would be the fifth I will have shadowed in just two years. [Interruption.] Government Members may groan, but they do not feel even half the pain that we feel on this side of the House.
Trump recently described Boris Johnson as Britain’s Trump and he was grinning like a Cheshire cat. In the United States we have seen what can happen when a racist and sexist is placed in charge of a country: implementing a Muslim ban on people arriving and leaving the country, banning trans people from serving in the military, pushing to allow businesses to turn LGBT customers away and making it easier for LGBT people to be sacked, or telling “the squad”, a group of four elected Congresswomen of colour, to go back to their countries. Our Prime Minister is modelling his campaign on his mate Trump. This is proven by the fact that No. 10 recently carried out a so-called culture war on polling on trans people. It is a disgrace to equalities, and it is so obvious that the Tories do not care about this brief. Women have suffered 87% of the cuts, and we have seen a 375% rise in hate crime. We cannot allow this kind of hateful and divisive politics to continue to infect the UK. If any Government is in need of a Minister to fight against racism, sexism and homophobia, it is this one.
Mr Speaker, with your commitment to equality, I wonder if you can shed some light on this. Do you know when the Prime Minister will stop passing this vitally important brief around like an inconvenience, and when he will start treating the Women and Equalities brief with the respect that it deserves and appoint a full-time Secretary of State to the brief, and a Department, just as Labour has pledged to do?
Mr Speaker
The hon. Lady has said what she thought; it is on the record and people can make their own assessment of it. Let me just say that I do regard the portfolio as a matter of the utmost importance, and one of the encouraging phenomena of recent years has been the emergence of an apparent consensus across the House as to the importance of this set of issues. That is precious, and it should be cherished. It would be perilous if it were lost or put at risk. I very much hope that in the very difficult circumstances that we now face, there will be a replacement Minister soon. This is not a matter for me, but I feel very confident that an appointment will be made before very long.
These issues have to be focused on with a relentless tenacity. You cannot just take them for granted or think, “Job done.” Sadly, all too often, we observe people in very, very, very senior positions around the world who do not appear to be adequately conscious—if conscious at all—of the scale of their responsibilities. With power comes responsibility. For example, we do not want to hear and we utterly deprecate the use of language such as “Go back” as a political tool. The Government rightly criticised this; it is unacceptable and it should not be ignored. It has to be called out. We need a focus for these issues, and the existence of a Minister is a part of that focus, mirrored by the Select Committee that scrutinises the Minister’s work. We have an excellent Women and Equalities Committee—it is to the great credit of the Government that they established it—and it is important that it should have a Minister to scrutinise.
Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am thankful to my hon. Friend the Member for Brent Central (Dawn Butler) on our Front Bench for slightly changing the tone, because I have an actual point of order. I too wish to associate myself with all the comments that have been made. I have been called over the years to criticise you and also to defend you. Had I known what I have found out today about HS2, the latter would have been harder to do. I had no idea that you were against HS2, which will obviously revolutionise the place where I live. Anyway, that is not my point of order.
Mr Speaker, I know because of everything that has been said today that you encourage people like me to stand up and say when we think things are wrong and when we think things can be improved in parliament. I love Parliament just as you do, and I wish for it to be in its healthiest form so that people can once again trust us, because there is a lack of trust in the country of this place at the moment. I wonder if you could help me to understand, in cases where Members of this House are found, and proven, to have committed what I would call, in certain cases, violence against women and girls —regardless of whether they do it on parliamentary time or not—or where a Member of this House is in court for crimes that are violent or abusive, what protections we put in place for the vulnerable people who go to see them in their surgeries? When I worked in the voluntary sector, or if I was a teacher, a doctor or a police officer, I would not have been allowed to see the public during a period in which an investigation was ongoing into me and the potential abuse of vulnerable people. I have deep concerns about the safeguarding of the people of our country and about how the laws around vulnerable people do not apply to this place.
Mr Speaker
I take very seriously what the hon. Lady has said, which bears solemn reflection. Rather than giving some ill-judged response on the hoof, I would prefer to discuss the matter privately with the hon. Lady, which I make the genuine offer in the near future to do.
We do a lot of things much better than we did, but as the leader of the Liberal Democrats pointed out—I nodded vigorously as she made the observation—there is still a lot more to do. I like to view—I say this not least to those who are observing our proceedings—the cup as half full, rather than half empty, but there is a fine line between being proud of what has been achieved and being satisfied. Being proud of what has been achieved is very often justified, and we should not rubbish ourselves. Being satisfied is usually a very, very bad idea, because it is the shortest possible route to complacency, for which there is no justification. We need to do better.
I have come to know the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips) over the past four years, and I have learned a lot from her. She is one of the most authentic politicians and best communicators that one could hope to meet. Apart from anything else—I hope I carry my colleagues with me in making this observation—she has got guts and character to burn.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
The hon. Member for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire) was the loudest, and she also has the biggest smile.
Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. So many things have been said about you that I hope you will accept that I will make my tributes to you in private. I hope that we can continue to be friends, even though I am a Whip and you have said some rather interesting things about Whips.
I actually wish to make a point of order, which is that I asked the Leader of the House last week to apologise for comparing a whistleblower who felt that it was in the national interest for him to reveal details about the possible impact of a no-deal Brexit on very ill people—I am so sorry for not giving you advance notice of this—with a disgraced former doctor who made up evidence about the MMR immunisation, but he refused to do so. As a result of a decrease in MMR immunisations, herd immunity to measles—a deadly disease—has gone down in this country. The Leader of the House has since apologised in public, but that is of course not on the record. In making my point of order, I hope to put it on record that the Leader of the House has apologised, but I seek your guidance on whether he can be asked to come to this House to put on the record, with equal measure, his apology for what he said about a distinguished man to whom we should be grateful.
Mr Speaker
The hon. Lady has made her point with vigour and alacrity, and it is on the record. If she wants to obtain, almost in real time, an electronic copy of what she said and to deliver it to the office of the Leader of the House, she may well elicit a response. The Leader of the House of Commons, the right hon. Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg), is somebody I have known for a very long time. I have sometimes agreed with him and sometimes not, but I have found that the right hon. Gentleman, though he has delivered some extremely waspish and widely objected to comments on this occasion, has invariably been widely regarded as courteous. He is a polite man and a gracious person, and his characteristic generosity of spirit could serve him well here. He has apologised outside the House—that is my understanding from the media—and it is perfectly open to him to do so in the Chamber. It is not for the Speaker to instruct him to do so. It is incumbent upon a Member who has erred in this House to correct the record.
This is a matter of opinion, rather than of fact, but if he has apologised outside the House and can be cajoled, exhorted, charmed or persuaded by the hon. Member for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire) and me to beetle along to the Chamber to give us a sample of his contrition and humility, who knows? He may well be widely praised.
Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am very saddened, on behalf of Plaid Cymru, to make this address to you today. We are eternally grateful to you for making a point of ensuring that the various and multifarious voices of this House are heard. There is such a variety, and earlier you mentioned the importance of Members of Parliament and their role. We need to remember in this place that every Member of Parliament is returned in exactly the same way by their constituents. Whichever party we stand and speak for, we are all here equally. I only hope that your successor will follow in your footsteps, because it has meant much to us. Rydan ni’n ddiolchgar i chi o waelod ein calonnau. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Mr Speaker
Thank you. That was a very beautiful tribute, and I appreciate what the right hon. Lady has said.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. It would be remiss of me not to say, on behalf of all the Unionist Members of this House, a huge and hearty Ulster thank you for the work you have done in this House, both in chairing these proceedings and, of course, in your 22 years as a Member of Parliament.
We thank you for your kindness outside the Chamber, as well as inside the Chamber. You have called one Member from Northern Ireland more than anyone else in the whole House—he obviously catches your eye better than the rest of us—and I know my hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) has already thanked you.
Will you pass on a huge thank you to your staff? You have opened up the facilities of this House to Members of Parliament for charitable groups and for other activities, and your staff have been very obliging in assisting to ensure that issues of importance to them are properly advocated in this House.
Your comments were very Burkean in that you said it is not for us just to give of our industry but of our judgment. Each of us has different judgments on all sorts of matters. You, Sir, have been able to respect those judgments, even though, at times, they are very different from the views you hold and, indeed, very different from the views held by other Members of this House.
I know that nationalist Members from Northern Ireland who sat in this House would also like to be recorded publicly as thanking you. Even though nationalists no longer take their seats here, which is a shame, I know those nationalist Members who previously represented their constituents in this House would also like to say a word of thank you for the work you have done as Chairman of these proceedings.
From your many visits to Northern Ireland, I know you have a soft spot for Belfast and for the people there. I am sure you will receive a rousing reception in some places and a less rousing reception in other places, but you will be welcomed back in Belfast.
The one thing that will probably disappoint you most is that you are not the Speaker who will oversee the restoration and renewal of this building. I know that is a personal passion of yours, but maybe as we enter into a new dispensation, free from Europe, we will have a fresh, new Parliament to sit in.
Mr Speaker
I thank the hon. Gentleman for what he says but, above all, I am enormously appreciative of his remarks about the team in the Speaker’s Office, to whom I referred. They have been steadfast, unwavering, efficient and magnificent, all of them, and I have worked with many of them for several years in succession—a point of absolutely no interest to the bigoted faction who form their view and do not want any facts to get in the way. They will not write about it. They will scribble their bigoted drivel, because that is what they do. When their grandchildren ask, “What did you do for a living?”, they will say, “Well, I scribbled my bigoted drivel for some downmarket apology for a newspaper.”
Calling it a newspaper is probably a breach of the Trade Descriptions Act, but they will not mind—they are probably very proud. Trashy articles by trashy journalists for trashy newspapers. It goes with the turf. It is downmarket, substandard and low grade. There is no intellectual weight to it, but that is what they do. It will always be about ad hominem attacks, because that is what makes their world go round.
But the fact is that the people who work in my office have been outstanding. I know their worth. We know the strength of our relationship, and the person standing on my left is one of several who have worked with me for many, many years and has worked with me throughout the 10 years I have been in post as Speaker. He was in the office for a decade before. He was educated at the university of life. There is not a pompous bone in his body. He would not know the meaning of the word “snobbery” if it hit him over the head, but he is absolutely brilliant, and I am grateful to him—Peter Barratt.
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (LD)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you for being one of the great reforming Speakers; it is you who is trying to take back control for this Parliament, and others should learn from your example. You have also been a great champion of Select Committees, and, as Chair of the Liaison Committee, I would like to thank you for that. You have also been a champion of allowing Back Benchers to hold the powerful to account. That is what my point of order is about now, and it is further to a previous point of order. Not only are NHS staff entitled to raise genuinely held concerns about patient safety, but they have a duty to do so, and they must be able to do this without fear of intimidation or bullying from people in positions of power, including Members of this House. Last week, the Leader of the House made highly offensive comments about Dr David Nicholl. I reiterate: unless the Leader of the House comes to this place to make an apology from the Floor of the House, what message does that send to NHS whistleblowers and what does it mean for patient safety?
Mr Speaker
I thank the hon. Lady for what she has said. She is an extremely distinguished denizen of the House, both in respect of her constituency work and of her chairing of very important Committees—the Health and Social Care Committee and the Liaison Committee. She speaks with considerable authority and gravitas by virtue of those roles and the reputation she has garnered. I do not want to pick an argument with the Leader of the House—he and I get on extremely well—but points have been made and the hon. Lady has underlined them. If she is dissatisfied, my advice to her is the advice I regularly give to Members wanting to know how they can take a matter forward—the word begins with “p” and ends in “t. My advice is: persist, persist, persist. There is nothing to prevent her from returning to the matter when we come back after the conference recess. On the Conservative Benches, the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), who is not in this place—I believe he is chairing various Committees this afternoon or attending Committee meetings—taught me decades ago that in politics quantity, persistence and, above all, repetition are at least as important as the quality of your argument. It is not good enough to have a good point and make it once—you have to keep going. If I may say so, at the risk of causing some disquiet on grounds of courtesies, I would suggest to the hon. Lady that she should follow the Churchill adage in pursuit of her cause: KBO—keep buggering on—at all times.
Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab/Co-op)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I, of course, associate myself with all the remarks we have heard about your stepping down. I shall not embarrass you by throwing more compliments at you. May I reinforce the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire) and the Chair of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston, have made? Last week, the Leader of the House was disgraceful and irresponsible in his comments about Dr Nicholl, and he should come to this Chamber to apologise from the Dispatch Box. That would be the courteous thing to do. More importantly, do you agree that if the Government are confident that they have a system to ensure our constituents and patients will get timely access to medicines, they should publish the analysis now, so that we can scrutinise it in this House of Commons in the time we have left?
Mr Speaker
I feel sure that we will return to both issues erelong, if the hon. Gentleman’s legendary indefatigability does not desert him in the weeks and months ahead—it will not, and therefore we will hear more on those subjects.
Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Most Members have served under you for a lot longer than I have, but it would be remiss of me not to thank you now for supporting me at a time when my life was in danger. I will not go into the details, but I wanted to thank you for providing me with a lot of protection during a very dark hour in my life. While we are talking about life and death, I also want to thank you for supporting my constituent Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe by giving her case a lot of priority in the House, by granting urgent questions and allowing debates to come forward. Most importantly, you went to see Richard Ratcliffe when he was on hunger strike outside the Iranian embassy, and you also saved his life at the time. Throughout your career you have looked after Parliament and democracy, but along the way you have also saved lots of lives, which people might not know about.
Mr Speaker
I appreciate what the hon. Lady has said. I had not met Richard Ratcliffe before. Visiting him and spending a little time with him was an honour, as anyone who has met him will know. He is a quite remarkable human being. The sooner that Nazanin is freed so that she can be reunited with her daughter, husband and wider family, so much the better. It is intolerable beyond words that she has been denied her freedom by an act of dictatorial barbarity. We will go on and on about this for as long as it takes for humanity to prevail over barbarism. It would be good if this message was repeated much more widely, and not just in this place by conscientious politicians but in parts of the media that, frankly, are not terribly interested—it is about time, if they have any sort of moral compass, that they took an interest.
Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. May I thank you for all that you have done to give us the opportunity to hold to account not only our own Government but other Governments, in respect to human rights violations and standing up for democracy? One example is when you agreed, at the request of the then Leader of the House and mother of the House, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman), to host the Women MPs of the World conference in this House. We heard incredibly moving contributions from women who have risked their lives and lost family members in order to stand up as parliamentarians in their countries. The power of this House to do good, and not only in this country but around the world, remains undimmed, despite and notwithstanding our current difficulties. It is important that we remember that this House, at its best, is a source of inspiration around the world, and that is in no small part thanks to all that you have done. Thank you, Mr Speaker. We will miss you, and we wish you the warmest regards for the future.
Mr Speaker
I think that the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) has done huge and invaluable work on this front. She knows the issues and she feels them. She is, of course, as the hon. Lady knows, a stellar progressive change maker, and she has charted that course since she entered the House on 28 October 1982—she came into the House as a very young woman indeed, and she will mark 37 years in the House next month. If I know the right hon. and learned Lady, she will keep pursuing these issues, in whatever capacity, because they reflect her humanity and her attachment to principle, the rights of the underdog and the cause of equality. She, like the hon. Lady, came into politics for all the right reasons.
Mr Speaker
I know that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) will be very proud of what I have just said about his wife, and he is looking even happier than he otherwise would. I will come to him, but it would be a pity to squander him at too early a stage of our proceedings when we have only been going for an hour and a quarter or so, so I will come to him momentarily.
Caroline Lucas
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Thank you for breaking one of your own rules—perhaps not a written one—as I have only just come into the Chamber, as you noticed. I want to apologise and explain that I was off the parliamentary estate. I had not known that you were about to make a statement, but as soon as I heard, I came back as fast as I could.
I want to thank you very seriously for your incredibly strong sense of fairness. As an MP from a party of just one in this place, it is very easy to feel somewhat marginalised from time to time, and I have so much gratitude for you that you have always included the Green party, recognising that I may be only one in here, but I represent a party out there. I thank you for your incredibly strong sense of fairness and justice and thank you for your reforming zeal in this place. We still have a long way to go, but thanks to you, we are a long way down that path.
Mr Speaker
The hon. Lady may recall that she once asked me if it would be all right if she included on the dust jacket of a book she was about to publish a tribute that I had paid her. I said to her that I was more than delighted for her to use that tribute on the dust jacket. My rationale was very simple: I had said what I said in public. I said it because I meant it, and I meant it so I said it, and, having meant it and said it, I was more than happy for it to be reproduced. I rather trust that that will continue to be at the hon. Lady’s pleasure. She is a superb parliamentarian and I think that that is recognised across the House. Without a vast infrastructure to support her, she is indefatigable, irrepressible and astonishing in her productivity and in the sheer range of her political interests. She is a fine parliamentarian. Also, because she is the only member of her party at the moment in this House, she is in the happy position of being leader and Chief Whip of her own party and, I think, of invariably agreeing with herself.
I thank colleagues. I know that we have taken a long time, but finally, we have time—frankly, we would have more time if we were not disappearing for a rather excessive period—for Jack Dromey.
Jack Dromey
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. May I echo the tributes that have been paid to you? You are one of history’s finest Speakers with a lasting legacy, and dare I say that, in addition to everything else that has been said, you are one plain, decent man of immense integrity?
I rise on another matter: the truly right hon. Member for Meriden (Dame Caroline Spelman) is leaving this House, because she has suffered shameful harassment and intimidation, including threats against her personal safety and the safety of her staff. Yet, Mr Speaker, there seems to be in this House those who are oblivious to the consequences of their actions. They use language that scars the public discourse—toxic talk of “traitors”, “collaborators”, “conspirators” and “surrender”—that demeans democracy, that fans the flames of hate and hate crime and that puts the public and Members of this House at risk. Women in particular often suffer shameful treatment. Is it in order in our great Parliament for language—hateful language—ever to be used that can then have tragic consequences, as recent history has told us?
Mr Speaker
There is a fine balance that has to be observed. Free speech is important, and one does not want to suppress the right of Members to hold and express, with considerable force and sometimes ill judgment, opinions very sincerely believed. But each and every one of us has in this place to weigh his or her words and to understand that we are in leadership positions. Words count. Words matter. Words make a difference. Words can cause great personal hurt and also be the trigger for actions by others.
I have become increasingly conscious in recent times—from Members on both sides of the House—of the escalation in hostile communications to Members and sometimes to their families. I underline that we have to call out unacceptable behaviour, including the issue of language that can induce threats or that constitutes a threat in its own right. We have to recognise also that there are some people who are so deprived of a moral compass that they think that, because they believe a particular thing strongly about a Member, that somehow justifies them subjecting that Member and his or her family to vituperation, abuse, intimidation or worse. It does not. It cannot. It will not.
I remember being shocked when the Leader of the House of Commons was faced by aggressive demonstrations outside his home, with people saying to his family, “A lot of people disapprove of your dad.” That could have been deeply frightening to family members and young children. Other Members, on both sides of the House, have also highlighted their experiences or the experiences of their family, or of their constituency or parliamentary staff; and up with this we cannot put. We simply have to say that it is wrong as a matter of principle and that if we need to do more and better, including the investment of greater resources and an improved mindset within the police service and the House authorities, we will do that. I hope that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) will forgive me if I say that I have done my best but not enough and that more will need to be done in the period ahead. Some of the responsibility for leadership on that front will lie with the next Speaker.
It would be a good thing also if those who constantly prate about their rights to free speech—to publish or be damned, and say exactly what they think—were to ask themselves, “Is what we are about to produce likely to spark intimidation, harassment or violence?” and if those who put up pictures of parliamentarians on the front pages as though they are somehow public enemies because they have dared to hold and express a view that differs from that of the newspaper concerned started to realise just how desperately dangerous that is and to exercise a modicum of responsibility. Those people have got to learn to operate at the level of events. Thank you, colleagues.
Royal Assent
Mr Speaker
I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that Her Majesty has signified her Royal Assent to the following Acts:
Kew Gardens (Leases) Act 2019
European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019.
Prorogation (Disclosure of Communications)
(5 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Mr Speaker
I know that the House will join me in empathising with and showering congratulations for his forbearance upon the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), who has been so patiently waiting for his opportunity. I now call the right hon. and learned Gentleman to make an application for leave to propose a debate on a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration under the terms of Standing Order No. 24. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has up to three minutes in which to make his application.
Mr Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Ind)
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I hope I may be briefer than that.
The House is about to be prorogued for five weeks. Two weeks after we return is the anticipated date on which we are going to leave the European Union. There is much that is left undebated. In particular, we will not have an opportunity to ask necessary questions of the Government in relation to their own prepared documents under Yellowhammer, which they have prepared for their own use in relation to the risks of a no deal. In addition to that, we will not have the opportunity to ask what I think are the necessary and, unfortunately, searching questions about the Government’s motives in proroguing this House and the potential difference between what they have said in public in this matter and what the evidence suggests is the reality.
For those reasons, I would ask for the opportunity, along with my right hon. and hon. Friends and other Members, to debate this matter under Standing Order No. 24 in the terms set out—I will not read it out here because everybody can have a copy—which include both an opportunity of debate and an Humble Address to enable us to get the documents that otherwise we will have no prospect of seeing before the anticipated date of our departure from the EU. I hope to take the opportunity in a few minutes, if the House agrees, to explain in detail why I think this is necessary. I want to emphasise that in having done an SO24 linked to an Humble Address, I have not taken this matter lightly and certainly not in a partisan way. I will explain exactly why when I have the opportunity of developing those arguments. I think they are very serious issues to which this House must give the closest consideration.
Mr Speaker
The right hon. and learned Gentleman asks me to propose a debate on a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration under the terms of Standing Order No. 24, namely the matter of prorogation with the imminence of an exit from the European Union. I have received the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s written application. I have listened carefully to what he has said on the Floor of the House. I am satisfied that the matter raised is proper to be discussed under Standing Order No. 24. Has the right hon. and learned Gentleman the leave of the House?
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
No!
Application agreed to (not fewer than 40 Members standing in support).
Mr Speaker
A very large number of Members are standing in support of the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I note that the very, very loud expression of opposition from the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) is testament to the existence of more than enough support. Can I just say—well, whether I can or not, I am going to—that I do know what I am doing in these matters, I do know the Standing Orders, and I do listen to the advice? Sometimes you get these pop-up characters who think they understand these matters on the basis of minimal familiarity with the said Standing Orders and presume to say that the rules have been broken. They are entitled to their opinions, but they suffer from the notable disadvantage of being completely wrong. I know what the rules are and what they allow, and this is absolutely in keeping with the Standing Orders. If there are people who do not like the subject matter and would prefer it not to be aired and judge that it is inconvenient, they are perfectly entitled to their view, but it has nothing to do with the procedural propriety—[Interruption.] Do not tell me, young man, from a sedentary position what I can and cannot say. If the Under-Secretary of State for International Trade is not interested, he can leave the Chamber. I am not remotely interested in your pettifogging objection chuntered inelegantly from a sedentary position. The position is as I have described it, and quite frankly, young man, you can like it or lump it. People will understand that, as far as the Speaker is concerned, his job is to stand up for the rights of the legislature. I never have been, am not and never will be in the business of being bossed around by some footling member of the Executive branch.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman has obtained the leave of the House. The debate will be held now, as the first item of public business. The debate will last for two hours, and it will arise on a motion that the House has considered the specified matter set out in his application.
European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019 (Rule of Law)
(5 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Mr Speaker
Before we come to the debate proposed by the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), I call the Leader of the Opposition to make an application for leave to propose a debate on another specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration under the terms of Standing Order No. 24. The right hon. Gentleman has up to three minutes in which to make such an application.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will be brief, because the whole House wants to get on to the important debate that you have just agreed to. I want to ask for a very urgent debate on what I consider to be a matter of overriding importance and seriousness. The motion reads:
“That this House has considered the welcome completion of all parliamentary stages of the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act and has considered the matter of the importance of the rule of law and Ministers’ obligation to comply with the law.”
I welcome the passage of the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act, which has just received Royal Assent. However, there is deep concern not just across the House but across the whole country at the Government’s commitment to abide by the obligations set out in that Act and the outright statements in some quarters that they will disregard or seek to evade the law that has just received Royal Assent and therefore is an Act of Parliament. I am therefore asking you to grant an urgent debate under Standing Order No. 24, on behalf of the people of this country who want to live in a democratic society where the Government abide by the rule of law, on whether the Prime Minister will obey the law that this House has just passed into law.
Mr Speaker
The right hon. Gentleman asks for leave to propose a debate on a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration: the welcome completion of all parliamentary stages of the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Bill—sometimes colloquially known, probably in the pubs and clubs of the United Kingdom, as the Benn-Letwin Bill—and has considered the matter of the importance of the rule of law and Ministers’ obligation to comply with the law.
I have listened carefully to the right hon. Gentleman’s application. Adherence to the law—goodness! Yes, I am satisfied that the matter raised on the last day before the Prorogation of this Parliament is proper to be discussed under Standing Order No. 24. Has the right hon. Gentleman the leave of the House?
Application agreed to (not fewer than 40 Members standing in support).
Mr Speaker
I thank colleagues on both sides of the House. The right hon. Gentleman has obtained the leave of the House. I advise the Leader of the Opposition, his colleagues and the House that the debate will be held today as the second item of public business, immediately after the first SO24 debate in the name of the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield. The Leader of the Opposition’s debate will last for up to 90 minutes and will arise on a motion that the House has considered the specified matter set out in his application.
Prorogation (Disclosure of Communications)
(5 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
19:13 - The House divided: - Ayes: 311 / Noes: 302 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Mr Speaker
We now come to the motion in the name of Mr Dominic Grieve and others, to be moved under Standing Order No. 24. I remind the House that a paper with the terms of the motion has been distributed.
Mr Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Ind)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered the matter of prorogation with the imminence of an exit from the European Union and accordingly resolves—
That an Humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that she will be graciously pleased to direct Ministers to lay before this House, not later than 11.00pm Wednesday 11 September, all correspondence and other communications (whether formal or informal, in both written and electronic form, including but not limited to messaging services including WhatsApp, Telegram, Signal, Facebook messenger, private email accounts both encrypted and unencrypted, text messaging and iMessage and the use of both official and personal mobile phones) to, from or within the present administration, since 23 July 2019 relating to the prorogation of Parliament sent or received by one or more of the following individuals: Hugh Bennett, Simon Burton, Dominic Cummings, Nikki da Costa, Tom Irven, Sir Roy Stone, Christopher James, Lee Cain or Beatrice Timpson; and that Ministers be further directed to lay before this House no later than 11.00pm Wednesday 11 September all the documents prepared within Her Majesty's Government since 23 July 2019 relating to operation Yellowhammer and submitted to the Cabinet or a Cabinet Committee.
I am sorry to have to move this motion, because it ought not to be necessary to do so.
When I was Attorney General, a lot of the work I had to do involved advising on law, but from time to time quite a lot of it was to do with propriety in government. We are very blessed in this country that, as well as obeying the rule of law, there is within government a deep understanding that if our constitution, which is largely unwritten, is to function, there has to be a high level of trust between different parts of government—whether it be Parliament or the Administration—in how our affairs are conducted. I am glad to say that, in my experience, if and when I ever had to step in as Attorney General to point out that I thought propriety might be in danger of being infringed, I always had a positive response from my colleagues in government about the necessity at all times to be seen to be acting with clean hands.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
On that point, if the right hon. and learned Gentleman is successful and the Government are obliged to supply these papers, is he confident that the current Prime Minister and the Executive will do so?
Mr Grieve
Seeing that this would be a Humble Address to Her Majesty the Queen for the documents, I very much hope that there could be no question other than that they will be provided, because it is the custom and practice and the convention that such Humble Addresses are responded to positively by the Government.
The reason why we have these rules is to manage difference. They provide a framework for our debates that—because, as I say, there is a high level of trust— enables us to manage sometimes serious difference, such as we undoubtedly have at the moment, in a moderate fashion. We are able sometimes to say strong words to each other, but to come together afterwards with a high level of appreciation of the other’s point of view and an absolute certainty that one side is not trying to trick the other. My concern is that there is now increasing and compelling evidence that this trust is breaking down and, indeed, that there is cause to be concerned that the conventions are not being maintained.
This of course arises particularly because of the decision to prorogue this House. I do not think I need to go into too much history to point out that, in recent years, the power of Prorogation has been used for only two reasons. The first is to have the short interval, usually of no more than seven or eight days, between one Session and the next, so that a Queen’s Speech may take place. It has also been used at times to extend time for a general election in order to maintain a power by which this House could be recalled in an emergency before it is finally dissolved. The use being made of it by the Government in proroguing this House until 14 October is, in current times, unprecedented. It is a long period, and all the more startling because it takes place against the background of what is without doubt—it is a bit difficult to gainsay it—a growing national crisis.
Sir Oliver Letwin (West Dorset) (Ind)
Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that what makes this particularly important is that it was open to the Government to move a periodic Adjournment—or, as we normally call it, a sittings motion—which could have been approved by the House to achieve the same effect? However, the Government chose to use the prerogative power, which in effect enables the Prime Minister to advise the Queen to remove Parliament from the scene of action. It is therefore obviously of the greatest possible importance what the Government’s motive in so doing was, and the papers he describes will reveal that motive in a way nothing else can.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give way?
Mr Grieve
I will if the hon. Lady will wait just one moment.
The justification that the Government have given for this length of Prorogation is that we were due to adjourn for the purposes of party conferences and to return shortly before the date the Government have chosen, but everybody in this House knows that the nature of the crisis that has been engulfing us in the last two months meant that it was clear the House would not consent to be adjourned because it regarded its continuing sitting as being absolutely essential. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister knew this very well. Furthermore, it appeared—certainly at the time when he stood for the leadership of the Conservative party and was about to become Prime Minister—that although suggestions had been made about proroguing the House to facilitate achieving a no-deal Brexit, he apparently did not approve of them. Indeed, he said publicly during his leadership bid:
“I’m not attracted to archaic devices like proroguing.”
That is where the trust comes in. As news emerged of the decision to prorogue, it rapidly became clear that the Government did not appear to be giving a consistent account of their reasons. As the act of proroguing has led to litigation, it has then followed that some, but not all, of the motives for Prorogation began to emerge. We have seen that although on 23 August this year No. 10 Downing Street and the Prime Minister denied considering the idea of proroguing at all, in fact, internal Government documents reveal that this matter was under consideration some 10 days before. Indeed, there is a rather remarkable memorandum from the Prime Minister himself in which he expresses total contentment with this because he finds the September sitting to be an unnecessary and rather contemptible activity. It is perhaps rather typical of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister that he gets something wrong—as we now know, he suggests that the September sitting is the product of the work of one of his predecessors, Mr David Cameron, whereas it was Mr Tony Blair who introduced it. It is rather noteworthy that when we found what was under the redaction, it turned out he had condemned Mr David Cameron, for his belief in having a September sitting, as a “girly swot”, which I supposed was meant to be contrasted with his manly idleness. That seems to be his established practice when it comes to confronting the crisis that threatens to engulf us on 31 October if he cannot get the deal that he promises he is going to achieve, but which it now appears from the resignation statement of the previous Secretary of State for Work and Pensions that he has done absolutely no work even to commence negotiating.
Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)
I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for giving way to this girly swot. Does he agree that democracy requires a certain commitment to the truth; that to date there has been a reasonable expectation that when asked questions the Government will not actively lie and will tell the truth; and that the loosening of the current Administration’s moorings from a commitment to tell the truth is a direct threat to democracy?
Mr Grieve
The hon. Lady is right. That is what concerns me so much, and I think the House collectively ought to pause and consider it this evening. She will be aware that the next thing that emerged—I shall come back to the issue of it being just rumour—in the litigation that was brought against the Government was a desire to set out the reasons why Prorogation was being pursued. When the Treasury Solicitor’s Department, as it would properly do in conducting litigation, sought to find a public official willing to depose in affidavit as to why the Government had decided to prorogue—and I might add, asked Her Majesty the Queen to prorogue Parliament, one must assume—no such official willing to swear the affidavit could be found. As a consequence, a number of documents were simply exhibited by the Treasury Solicitor for the Government’s case.
Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)
Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman recall any instance, when he was Attorney General, of being unable to find public officials willing to swear affidavits about the Government’s case?
Mr Grieve
No, I can think of no such event. Indeed, it is the Treasury Solicitor’s Department and the Law Officers’ job to make sure that anything the Government say in litigation fulfils their duty of candour and is not misleading.
Then a most remarkable thing happened, Mr Speaker, and this is where it becomes more difficult for me. In the course of the days that followed I started to be given information from public officials informing me that they believed the handling of this matter smacked of scandal—there is no other way to describe it. Of course, that places me in a difficulty, because it is simply the information that I have been given. I want to make absolutely clear that I am not in a position—any more, I think, than any Member of this House—to be able to ascertain whether that information is mistaken. I can only say that I believe those sources to be reliable. Also, in my experience it is extraordinarily unusual that I should get such approaches, with individuals expressing their disquiet about the handling of a matter and some of the underlying issues to which it could give rise.
It is as a consequence of that that I have drafted, along with right hon. and hon. Friends and other Members, the Humble Address concerning the Prorogation documents. I want to emphasise at the outset that in doing so and identifying named individuals, whether they be special advisers, who make up the vast majority, or one in case a civil servant, I am making absolutely no imputation against any single one of them whatever. It would be disgraceful to do so, because I do not have the evidence on which to do it.
Victoria Prentis (Banbury) (Con)
My right hon. and learned Friend and I have worked together, originally as master and pupil and then as Attorney General and civil servant. We have a great deal of history in this matter. Does he agree that there are civil service mechanisms and systems for guiding the behaviour of civil servants, and that these matters are ideally best not discussed in the manner in which we are discussing them this afternoon?
Mr Grieve
My hon. Friend is right about our long association. She is also right, of course, having worked in the Treasury Solicitor’s Department, where I am quite sure she maintained at all times the highest standards of integrity. The difficulty, however, is this: 31 October is looming. We are, as a House, about to be prorogued and rendered entirely ineffective until 14 October. This is the choice of the Government. The routes I might have wished to have taken to see this matter properly investigated simply do not match the time available for us to take them. As trust has progressively broken down, I am afraid I have become increasingly concerned that if one were simply to ask polite questions, the Government may not respond in the manner they should.
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)
Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell the House whether he intends to put on the record any of the details of the information he says he received? The worry is that if he does not and the Government simply ignore his Humble Address, we will never know its contents. The implication of what he is saying is really very serious—that the Queen was misled by the Prime Minister as to his reasons for wanting a Prorogation.
Mr Grieve
The right hon. Gentleman raises some very difficult points. The best thing I can do is simply to state openly the generality of it. He is, I think, correct in what he says: far from this Prorogation being a desire to reset the Government for the purposes of holding a Queen’s Speech, and nothing else, there is available plenty of evidence that what actually happened was a concerted get-together within Government to try to ensure that this House would be prevented from taking action to stop a no-deal Brexit, and that the origins of that long predated the first time the Government mentioned Prorogation. That is, in a nutshell, what we are talking about.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
As the right hon. and learned Gentleman knows, I have been in this House for 40 years. I have never heard of a more serious allegation against a Government: misleading this House and stopping it functioning. Would he agree?
Mr Grieve
I would, but I also emphasise—and that is why I emphasise it—that these are allegations, and in an ideal world, I would have preferred not to make allegations, even within the context of the privilege that this House provides. However, in the circumstances, and with the time available before 31 October and the fact that we are proroguing, there really is no alternative.
Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)
Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?
Mr Grieve
No, I will make a bit of progress.
What I have attempted to do, distilling the information that has been made available, is to identify people where I think the information may be available. I repeat what I said: I make no imputation whatsoever against individuals. We could have tried to be much broader, but had we been much broader, it might have looked a bit like a fishing expedition throughout Government. It seems only right to ask the questions where we have been directed —by the information that I and others have received—that the answers may be found, hence the list of individuals I have named. I say again that there is not a single imputation against any of them. What is necessary is to establish the information that they possess.
Dame Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)
I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend for giving way; we have been friends for his entire time in this House. Having been a Minister himself, is he not worried about the collateral damage that this Humble Address is creating? It is important that civil servants have space—a safe space—to speak truth to power, and I think that by his actions today, he is damaging the civil service’s ability to communicate and discuss matters freely with Ministers. Does he not see the damage that he is doing?
Mr Grieve
I understand my right hon. Friend’s point. That was a matter that exercised me very much before I decided to table this motion, but against that, we have to face up to another fact: those necessary protections for civil servants cannot and must not be used as a device to hoodwink this House and the public as to the way the Government conduct their business. The Government have a duty. They can sometimes have a duty not to say something, but they certainly do not have a right to mislead, and this is such a fundamental matter that I think we are right to pursue the issue. Of course, if it turns out that the information I was given was mistaken, well, in those circumstances, I shall be the happiest person of the lot, but I have to say that I think it is sufficiently serious in its nature and content that I would be failing in my duty as a Member of Parliament if we were not to seek to ascertain whether it was correct.
John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
Surely all that matters is what was in the Prime Minister’s mind—his reasons for making the decision—and we cannot work that out from the personal testimonies of lots of officials, some of whom met the Prime Minister about this and some of whom did not. The question is what was in the Prime Minister’s mind, and the House has had ample opportunity, which it has already used, to cross-examine him and to satisfy itself as to his true motive. I do not see how knowing what some officials thought helps at all.
Mr Grieve
If I may say to my right hon. Friend, last week, at Prime Minister’s questions, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Hertfordshire (Mr Gauke) and I asked questions of the Prime Minister seeking to elicit an answer about his motive and state of knowledge, and I was rather struck by the fact that he avoided answering both questions completely. He made not a single attempt—my right hon. Friend should look at Hansard—to answer the question. I am afraid I do not have much confidence that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has the capacity—frankly—to answer questions of this kind, because he does not appear to understand how serious they are and appears to treat them with a high level of flippancy.
David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
Prorogation this evening will deny the Liaison Committee a three-hour session with the Prime Minister this Wednesday—a session the Prime Minister agreed to on 14 August.
Mr Grieve
Yes, indeed, and of course that might have provided another opportunity to ask questions.
I appreciate that this House can sometimes be difficult and irksome to Prime Ministers and Governments, but that is our job. We are here precisely to provide scrutiny and to hold to account. For those reasons, I do not think it would be unreasonable of us to proceed to ask for these documents. I believe and hope that this has been drafted in a way that is sufficiently focused that we can come swiftly to a conclusion by Wednesday as to whether there is anything that should be causing the public disquiet.
Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con)
My right hon. and learned Friend has named nine individuals. He could have asked for the Cabinet Secretary and permanent secretaries, but these names appear very arbitrary. I know one of them and I think she was appointed only a week or 10 days ago. What were his criteria for choosing these nine individuals?
Mr Grieve
My right hon. Friend makes a very good point. There was a time at the end of last week when the list was rather long and included—I will say this openly—senior civil servants, but I was reticent about that and felt as a result of inquiries I made that the list could best be narrowed. It was made quite clear from the information I gleaned that the origins of the story of how Prorogation came about lay not with public officials but with the special advisers to Ministers. For that reason, the list is as well directed as I believe it can be.
That is the issue surrounding Prorogation. In addition, we have the papers surrounding Yellowhammer. The House will remember that the Government sought to suggest when the Yellowhammer papers first started to emerge—some of them—that this was material prepared for a previous Administration, but that turns out to be incorrect and to be another of those little inaccuracies that now seem to creep out of No. 10 Downing Street. It was material prepared for the current Administration and Cabinet committees so that they could understand the risks involved in a no-deal Brexit.
We will be prevented over the coming weeks from debating those issues, and when we return we will have almost no time. I fear very much that by the time the Queen’s Speech debate is over we will be mired in a great crisis that I would much rather see avoided. It seems entirely reasonable, therefore, to ask the Government to disclose these documents, both so the House can understand the risks involved and so that these can in due course be communicated more widely to the public. Of course, if the documents suggest that no risks are involved, that too will be in need of communication.
Chi Onwurah
There are few in the House who have the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s knowledge of its conventions and protocols, except, perhaps, you, Mr Speaker. Certainly, my constituents do not follow the differences between Prorogation, recess, Queen’s Speech requirements and so forth. However, they do know that my title is “Member of Parliament”, which implies where I should be—in Parliament. Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that at this time of constitutional crisis my constituents expect us to be sitting in Parliament, and expect it not to be shut down? Does he agree that the question of why we are being prorogued goes to the heart of the credibility of me as a Member of Parliament and the credibility of the House in its entirety, and does he agree that, for that reason, the public interest is absolutely involved?
Mr Grieve
I agree wholeheartedly, and I do worry, because this Prorogation is, to my mind, a most regrettable event. It will prevent the House from giving proper scrutiny to what is, as I have said, an evolving situation that has critical importance to the future of our country.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Michael Gove)
I do not know whether my right hon. and learned Friend has had a chance to look at the transcript of the evidence that I supplied to the Exiting the European Union Committee last week. In my evidence I gave some undertakings about publications related to Yellowhammer. If carried out, would those assurances be sufficient for my right hon. and learned Friend?
Mr Grieve
I rather hope that the assurances and the terms of the motion would prove to be entirely identical. I see no reason why not, and such documents that have been revealed so far do not suggest to me that they contain any material that touches on essential issues of national security. It is entirely about the day-to-day life of this country in the immediate aftermath of departure. Of course, if there were national security implications, I am sure that my right hon. Friend would be able to raise them and they could be dealt with.
Michael Gove
I hope that before this debate concludes my right hon. and learned Friend will have an opportunity to look at the evidence submitted to the Select Committee, and I hope that, on that basis, he will be able to take those assurances as appropriate. I should be very grateful for his indication that he would do so.
Mr Grieve
If I may say this to my right hon. Friend, I think not. I think that the terms of the motion cannot be abandoned unless the House wishes to abandon them. I cannot believe, on the basis of what he so graciously said to the House a moment ago, that the terms of the motion will be significantly dissimilar. In those circumstances, I very much hope that we will get the documentation relating to Yellowhammer, in the way in which it was presented to him and his colleagues, on the basis of which they are taking the decisions that they are taking, which are of great importance to the future of our country, its wellbeing, and the wellbeing of every citizen.
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
May I pursue the point about the evidence presented by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster to the Select Committee last Thursday? I did indeed ask him whether he would publish the report on Operation Yellowhammer. For the benefit of the House, this is what he said in response:
“What I hope to do is more than that. What I would like to do is to make sure that we have Yellowhammer, once we have done the proper revision and the kicking of the tyres, alongside a publication that details the actions that the Government has taken to inform people of the consequences and allows people to see the mitigations that we have put in place, so people can make a proper judgment about the changes they need to make”.
That, I think, is a full quotation. On that basis, it would seem to me that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster would have no difficulty whatsoever with that part of the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s Standing Order 24 motion.
Mr Grieve
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. If I may say so, had the House more time I would not have tabled that part of the motion. We could have waited, sensibly, to see but the House will be gone by midnight tonight—or shortly thereafter, depending on how long our proceedings continue—and we will not be back until 14 October. At that stage, because of the way in which the House starts a new Session, the opportunities will not necessarily be there in quite the same way, and I suggest to the House that 14 October is far too close to 31 October for us to be able to accept that. Of course, if we do not vote for this motion in this form we will have no leverage over the Government should, for example, my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove) suddenly find that he is overridden by No. 10 advisers and the Prime Minister, who decide that they want to delay a little bit and that these papers might come later on. As I have said, the great difficulty that we now have in this House—and, I must say with great regret, that I have—is this terrible, compelling sense that trust is eroding.
That brings me to my final remark—
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Leslie
I am very grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman. He has had all sorts of emollient assurances from the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, but the Daily Mail is reporting right now that:
“Downing Street not in any mood to bow to Grieve’s demands…No. 10 source: ‘Under no circumstances will No. 10 staff comply with Grieve’s demands regardless of any votes in Parliament.’”
If the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster intervenes on the right hon. and learned Gentleman again he can be pressed to assure the right hon. and learned Gentleman that he will not see Parliament treated with such contempt.
Mr Grieve
I am afraid this classically illustrates the problem that we now have: these extraordinary utterances —pronouncements—from No. 10 Downing Street that bear absolutely no relationship with the operation and conventions of our constitution. It is impossible to know whether they are froth, whether they are Mr Cummings’s thoughts, or whether in fact they represent some settled policy view of Government, in which case this country is facing, frankly, a revolutionary situation in which this House has to exercise the utmost vigilance to ensure that our rights and privileges are not simply trampled upon.
I am very mindful of the fact that in this current crisis we are a divided country and a divided House, which pains me very much. I would like to work, even with those with whom I disagree such as some of my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench, to try to get this matter resolved in a way that is compatible with healing some of the divisions in our country, but that simply is not going to happen if the atmosphere of confrontation keeps being ratcheted up, slowly undermining the institutions that are the only props of legitimacy—that is the truth, for all of us—and in which everybody is happy to go into greenhouses and chuck bricks all over the place but expect the structure to provide some shelter afterwards.
The Attorney General (Mr Geoffrey Cox)
I have been listening with great care to my right hon. and learned Friend’s observations and part of his draft Humble Address troubles me. What legal right do the Government have to require their employees to give up private email accounts and personal mobile numbers? If there is no legal right—I imagine he would contend that there is not—how on earth would the Government enforce the Humble Address if they desired to do so?
Mr Grieve
These are Government employees. In the course of their work it is their duty to observe the civil service code and to comply with its requirements, including, I respectfully suggest to my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General, not using private means of communication to carry out official business.
Mr Grieve
I will give way to my right hon. and learned Friend in a moment.
In addition, it is a question about what this House requests. I am perfectly aware that sometimes I may say that the Government may be acting abusively, so I am the first to understand that there is a capacity for this House to act abusively. However, what is being asked for, and ought to be respected by any self-respecting Government employee, is that if they are asked to look and see whether they have carried out a communication, within the relevant request, that goes to their official work, they ought to be willing to provide it. It should not be a question of coercion; it should be a question of willingness. If we move from that, that will be the destruction of another convention under which this country has been run, and it will be greatly to our detriment.
Mr Speaker
Order. The point of order trumps the attempted intervention even of an illustrious Law Officer.
Kevin Brennan
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Is it a point of order or a point of information to point out that the Prime Minister’s special adviser, Dominic Cummings, asked to examine the private text messages on the telephone of a Government employee?
Mr Speaker
The hon. Gentleman has made his own point in his own way, and he may wish to expatiate further on that matter if he catches my eye in the course of the debate. Meanwhile, it is on the record and will be widely observed.
The Attorney General
My right hon. and learned Friend has just refined the Humble Address to confine the request for personal mobile information and personal private accounts only to communications that ought to have been carried out as official business on official accounts. The difficulty with the Humble Address that I invite him to consider is that it is a blunt instrument and that, in truth, what this Humble Address requires is careful refinement so that it complies with legal rules. This Humble Address has no binding legal effect on individuals. It potentially has a binding effect on the Government, if they observe it, but not on individuals. There seems to be a risk that it will trespass upon the fundamental rights of individuals, as it is currently drafted.
Mr Grieve
I am afraid I have to disagree politely with my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General. The issue is clearly defined: it relates to the Prorogation of Parliament. That is what it concerns. If I may say so, picking up on the earlier point that he made, I was just a little bit surprised. Of course he may argue that the Government cannot get this information, but No. 10 Downing Street is saying that it will not even seek or try to provide it. This again is absolutely illustrative of the slide we are experiencing towards a Government that will not respect the conventions, without which orderly government in this country cannot take place.
Dame Cheryl Gillan
Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way, on a serious point?
Dame Cheryl Gillan
I am very worried, because I have been looking at the special advisers code of conduct, and it says:
“Special advisers should not disclose official information which has been communicated in confidence in government or received in confidence from others.”
Does my right hon. and learned Friend not realise that his motion today sets all special advisers in conflict with the code that they have signed up to?
Mr Grieve
Not at all! Absolutely not at all! They are entitled, correctly, to say, “I have been asked by the House of Commons in a motion under a Humble Address to Her Majesty the Queen to provide that information”, and they should do so, if I may say so, with a public spirit and, indeed, a degree of pride—that is what I would do—because that request has been made of them.
Mr Speaker, I do not want to detain the House any further. As I said, I am the first to accept that this is a difficult matter, and I am the first to accept that finding a uniquely perfectly tailored instrument to meet the gravity of the situation that has arisen will always be difficult and might be open to some reasonable criticism. However, for all those things, I think the nature of what has happened, the immediacy of the crisis and the fact that we are proroguing require this motion, and I commend it to the House.
Keir Starmer (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)
Mr Speaker, may I first associate myself with the many comments about your role as Speaker in this House and the way in which you have performed it, certainly since I have been here? I did not have the chance to speak earlier, but I want to associate myself with those comments.
I rise to support this application in the name of the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve). At the heart of the application is the simple principle that the Executive should be honest and open with Parliament so as to enable this House properly to scrutinise the Government’s policies and decisions. That should be a given, but it is not, and I am afraid that that speaks volumes. Two important decisions underpin this application. The first is the decision to prorogue the House for five weeks, at what should be the most important and intensive part of the Brexit negotiations. The second is the decision to deny the House the assessment of the preparations for a no-deal Brexit—the Yellowhammer analysis.
Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab)
Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that, at the very least, Members of this House should be aware of the cost of a no-deal Brexit? That information is crucial to understanding whether the cost is £2 billion or £8 billion.
Keir Starmer
I do agree with my hon. Friend.
It is regrettable that we are compelled to use this process of a Humble Address, but the reason is obvious. Today’s measure speaks to a wide truth, which has been touched on a number of times by the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield, and I am sad to say that it is the basic lack of trust that now exists between this House and the Executive. That has changed in recent weeks. That lack of trust arises very much from the actions of the Prime Minister over the last weeks, which have contributed hugely to it. That alone should be a profound cause of concern to all Members of this House, because in my experience—only four years plus—this House operates on the basis of trust. That trust is going, day by day, and that is why this application has had to be made. That is a concern to all of us and it should be a concern to the Secretary of State.
Let me take the two issues one by one. At this stage of the Brexit process, the House should be sitting as often as possible. Frankly, we should be sitting every day until 31 October. Instead, we have a five-week Prorogation. The Prime Minister and other Ministers say that this is to allow for a Queen’s Speech and a new legislative agenda. If anybody believes that, they will believe anything. As the Secretary of State is likely to try to make that case—I say “try” because I do not think he will succeed—I have two questions. First, why now? Why prorogue now at such a crucial time? What is wrong with proroguing in November when we know the outcome of the negotiations and have a decision? Secondly, why five weeks? There is no requirement for Parliament to be prorogued for five weeks.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
The right hon. and learned Gentleman may be interested to know that in previous years I have asked the House of Commons Library to provide me with a list of what is going to be in the Government’s Queen’s Speech in advance. This year I have again asked that question, but the Library has replied that it is unable to provide me with any information about what might be in it because it has not detected the Government announcing anything in relation to what is going to be in the Queen’s Speech.
Keir Starmer
That intervention speaks for itself.
I remind the House that in the past 40 years Parliament has never been prorogued for longer than three weeks, so it is extraordinary that this Prorogation should come now and for five weeks. In most cases, the House is prorogued for the purposes of the Queen’s Speech for a week or less, and often just for a few days, so to shut down Parliament for so long a period at this stage of the Brexit process is extraordinary.
Justine Greening (Putney) (Ind)
I am thoroughly supportive of this emergency debate and what it seeks to achieve. Many people perhaps do not realise that this is not just closing down the debate on Brexit; it is closing down the debate on everything. For example, were we not proroguing, we would have had Treasury questions tomorrow and I would have asked a question to represent some of those people affected by the 2019 loan charge issue. That issue, along with the NHS, schools and everything else, will now be set on one side, and this House’s voice on behalf of the people will be utterly muzzled.
Keir Starmer
I accept that intervention, because the House is being shut down and we will not be able to do our job. It is not Members of Parliament who are being shut out, but those we represent. Whether in relation to the issues mentioned by the right hon. Lady or any other issue, the people are shut out when Parliament is shut down. It is all very well for the Government to say, “We will produce some documents in relation to our analysis of a no-deal Brexit,” but we are not going to be here for the next five weeks, so when are we going to scrutinise them? Even if the Government do publish something, when do we get to ask questions? Not until it is far too late—two weeks away from the decision. To simply say, “We will publish some documents,” under Yellowhammer or anything else misses the point, which is that there can be no scrutiny if we are not sitting.
There is a wider observation, which is that if the purpose of proroguing is justified by the need to pass a Queen’s Speech, how on earth do the Government think they can now achieve that? I remind the House that the Government now have a majority of minus 40. With Cabinet Ministers and even the Prime Minister’s family resigning the Tory Whip every day, one can only wonder what the number will be by the time the House returns. Surely the Government should now just give up on the idea of a Queen’s Speech and drop Prorogation altogether.
Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware of the recording of the Defence Secretary, in which he states his view as to why Prorogation is really happening? It is somewhat different from what the Prime Minister has put forward.
Keir Starmer
Yes, I have seen that. Why we are being closed down is blindingly obvious. As I said earlier, if anybody believes it is genuinely for the orderliness of the House and the convenience of a Queen’s Speech, they will believe anything. We are being closed down to stop scrutiny and to prevent this House from expressing a view on no deal. The only positive is that it galvanised the House last week to take the necessary action to prevent no deal, and Opposition Members were pulled together and spoke strongly on the Bill that has just received Royal Assent.
David Hanson
I am still mystified as to why, on 14 August, the Prime Minister agreed to go to the Liaison Committee this Wednesday if he already knew that he was going to prorogue the House this Monday to avoid scrutiny.
Keir Starmer
If we were sitting, that would be a question that the Prime Minister could answer, not me. However, we will not be sitting, there will be no questions, and the Liaison Committee will not sit at the very point when we need maximum scrutiny.
Chris Philp (Croydon South) (Con)
A moment or two ago, the right hon. and learned Gentleman drew attention to the difficulty of passing a Queen’s Speech with a Government majority of minus 43. In such circumstances, would not a general election be the constitutionally proper thing to settle the matter? Will he therefore be voting for one, as the Leader of the Opposition promised last Wednesday, later this evening?
Keir Starmer
I am sure that we will have a general election soon, but not at the cost of a no-deal Brexit, which will so damage this country.
The second issue addressed in the motion is the Yellowhammer documents. I wrote to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster on 25 August—a fortnight ago now—calling for the publication of the documents when Parliament returned after the summer recess. I have not yet received a reply. Instead of any publication, we have had an update, with no supporting documents and no significant new information.
Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab)
The Yellowhammer report has been shared with the Welsh Government on a strictly confidential basis and is subject to the Official Secrets Act. Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that it is an affront to the people of Wales not to tell them what is in that report?
Keir Starmer
I understand that the people of Wales need that information. This House needs that information. Frankly, to take the country on a route that may well end up with a no-deal Brexit, but without providing the analysis of the impact, is so wrong in principle that we should not be where we are today. We have no documents or analysis to look at, and we are being shut down tonight, so even if some documents are produced, we will be unable to scrutinise them properly. We can only rely on leaks to the Sunday papers that, if right, show that, in the most likely scenario, the Government expect to see the return of a hard border in Northern Ireland—notwithstanding the efforts of many people to ensure that that does not happen—which will disrupt the fuel supply and UK ports, will cause severe delays in relation to medical supplies, and cause significant disruption and impediment to the ordinary functioning of British citizens’ lives and businesses.
Several hon. Members rose—
Keir Starmer
I will give way first to the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards).
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
As the right hon. and learned Gentleman knows, the British Government are planning a £100 million propaganda campaign to sell the virtues of a no-deal Brexit. Could they not save a lot of taxpayers’ money by agreeing to the terms of this motion, which will see the documents published on Wednesday?
Keir Starmer
The Government could save a lot of money by coming here and putting information in the public domain without the money attached. We could have had these documents last week. There is an irony in having a public information campaign when the impact assessments are not being made available to Parliament. The Government are spending millions of pounds on telling the country to get ready, but without having the decency to put the documents before Parliament and allowing Parliament to sit so that they can be scrutinised.
Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP)
Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that it is reprehensible that this Government have put us and the people of the United Kingdom in a position where we are having to fight every step of the way, through the courts and through Parliament, just to get basic information about the impact of a no-deal Brexit? That information should have been given to the people well ahead of the referendum. We now have brinkmanship and kamikaze-like behaviour from individuals who are going to damage the lives of our constituents—constituents like mine who will not be able to get medical supplies. He mentioned Yellowhammer and medical supplies. A close member of my family and a number of my constituents suffer from ulcerative colitis and are concerned about medical supplies and about their health. It is a disease exacerbated by stress. This Government are putting the lives and health of our citizens under threat. Does he agree?
Keir Starmer
I agree, and this goes to the basic question of transparency. If the Government want to take us down this path, which may end up with a no-deal Brexit, they should have the decency and the courage to put the analysis before Parliament.
Ms Angela Eagle
Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the difference between that £100 million that the Government are spending on so-called information and the information that we are seeking the publication of through this emergency debate is the difference between gross propaganda paid for by the taxpayer and factual information that ought to be in the public domain as we approach 31 October?
Keir Starmer
I agree. The Government are telling us to get ready, but they will not tell us what to get ready for. I say that really just to underline that these are not trivial documents. They are critically important, and they ought to be put before Parliament.
Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con)
I may be missing something here, but if the Labour party votes for an early election tonight, all this will be decided on 15 October. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman and his right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition have the confidence of people, they could then go and give the necessary notice and stop no deal. Why on earth is Labour baulking at the opportunity to get things settled properly by the people of this country?
Keir Starmer
That is such an unconvincing answer to the question of whether there should be basic transparency and accountability in this House.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
I congratulate the right hon. and learned Gentleman on stressing the fact that this is not just a technical debate. The livelihoods and lives of our constituents are literally at stake.
On that subject, does the right hon. and learned Gentleman share my concern that my freedom of information request to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on the impact on food supplies and the other risks of a no-deal Brexit was turned down? DEFRA confirmed it had that information on what the impact on food supplies will be, but apparently it would not be in the public interest to reveal it. Does he share my concern about that?
Keir Starmer
I am concerned about that, and I recall that that is where we started the journey last time, when we asked for impact assessments because freedom of information requests were not fulfilled.
Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP)
Australia is currently suffering from an appalling flu outbreak, which is worse than any it has seen in many years. The vaccine for under-65s is more complex this year and will not be in place before 31 October. Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that if we have a worse epidemic than in 2017 and do not have the vaccines, which have to be kept chilled, we could grind NHS services across the UK to a halt this year? If we do not have the details from Yellowhammer, how can anybody be prepared?
Keir Starmer
I am grateful for that intervention on a very serious issue, and it makes the wider point. Many members of the public are extremely concerned about the impact of a no-deal Brexit on their lives, which is why this is the right application to be made. The application has been made because Parliament is being shut down and preparations for a no deal are not being scrutinised.
I commend the motion to the House, and I urge Members on both sides to support it.
Rachel Maclean (Redditch) (Con)
I wish to speak briefly on two points, as I was not given a chance to intervene on the right hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer). He mentioned the issue of irony, and there is an irony at the heart of this debate: every Opposition Member who has stood up to warn of the risks of a no-deal Brexit had the opportunity to vote for a deal three times in this House. I did not hear a single one of them, including the right hon. and learned Gentleman, make any kind of convincing argument for why they did not vote for the deal negotiated by the former Prime Minister, except for the fact it was negotiated by a Conservative.
Several hon. Members rose—
Rachel Maclean
I am afraid that I will not give way, because a number of Members want to speak on this matter.
The irony is staring us all in the face. We all want to honour our constituents’ desire to leave the European Union, as expressed in the historic referendum—that is certainly what I was elected to do. I was put in here to honour the mandate expressed at the ballot box. It was not my vote, but I understand it is my duty to carry out their wishes, and not to think that I know better than them. Those people had only one vote, and it is my intention to fight to honour it. That is what I was put in here to do.
My constituents are watching this with astonishment and frustration. The more we go round and round in circles, with these processes that make absolutely no sense to people outside this place, the more angry and frustrated they are, because all they can see is a House of Commons that is completely out of touch with people out there. I am proud to make that point on behalf of my constituents in Redditch, who communicate with me on a regular basis.
My second point is about trust. Again we are talking about trust, which is at the heart of this argument. The trust that people put in us, as representatives of their will, is that we would honour their vote in that referendum, and all they have seen is people in here trying not to honour it.
It is obvious to all of us that this is an issue that cuts across political colours, as I have said many times in this House, and what is happening is that these shenanigans, these motions, are being tabled by Opposition Members and, unfortunately, Conservative Members who actually want to stop this democratic process. They want to stop Brexit, but they are not honest enough to admit it. If they were so sure of their argument—
Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (IGC)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The hon. Member for Redditch (Rachel Maclean) has said two things: first, that people are thwarting democracy; and, secondly, that hon. and right hon. Members are not being honest in the arguments they advance. Presumably she is referring to the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), who is sitting some three Benches behind her.
Mr Speaker
I hope the right hon. Lady will forgive me, but I was immersed—there is no point in my pretending otherwise—in a Socratic dialogue with an hon. Gentleman, as the Chair sometimes is. Therefore I did not hear what the hon. Member for Redditch (Rachel Maclean) said. I find it hard to credit the notion that she would impute dishonour to a colleague, particularly to a colleague on her own Benches, and certainly she should not do so. At this stage I have to declare her innocent, because there is no evidence of guilt, but nevertheless it is useful to be reminded of the dictate of “Erskine May” that moderation and good humour in the use of parliamentary language are reliable watchwords in conducting our debates.
Rachel Maclean
Thank you for your guidance, Mr Speaker. I endeavour to follow it and, should my words have been misinterpreted, I of course withdraw them immediately.
I made the point that there are divisions on this issue in the House, and the Members who are trying to bring forward these processes are the Members who are trying to stop Brexit. Some of them are actually quite honest and open about that, which is fine. That is their policy. Labour is now a party of remain, which is fine. It would be clearer if Labour put it to the test in a general election and let us see the public’s verdict, but unfortunately they are too frightened to do that.
Sir Oliver Letwin
I understand the passion with which my hon. Friend speaks. Does she accept that, like her, many of us who are supporting this motion, and who have supported other such motions in this whole endeavour, voted three times for a withdrawal agreement and wish to see a withdrawal agreement? I have assured the Prime Minister, both inside and outside this House, that I will personally vote for any agreement that he brings back from the European Council.
Rachel Maclean
I am delighted to hear that, and I absolutely acknowledge my right hon. Friend’s support for the withdrawal agreement and for any future deal. It is wonderful to hear that.
Special advisers are caught up in this Humble Address. I do not have a lot of experience of special advisers. I am a junior Parliamentary Private Secretary, and I have had the privilege of working with a few special advisers in the Departments I have been honoured to assist, and I have found them all, without exception, to be dedicated and conscientious individuals who do their job to the best of their ability.
David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)
How many special advisers has the hon. Lady worked with who have been found in contempt of Parliament?
Rachel Maclean
That is a hypothetical point, because we have not yet passed this motion. As I said at the start of my remarks, I have not been here long and I have very limited experience, so I have worked with none.
This would be an unprecedented situation for individuals who came into public life and into politics for the best of reasons. They want to perform public service and carry out their offices, and this Humble Address puts them in an extremely difficult position.
Governments of all colours have special advisers, which is an established role. It is not just this Government who have special advisers. The Labour Government had special advisers, too. We need to be extremely careful about tying their hands and constraining their freedom to advise the Ministers with whom they work.
Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am sure the hon. Lady did not want to mislead the House, but she said that it was “hypothetical” that the special adviser Mr Dominic Cummings had been found in contempt of Parliament. That is not hypothetical—it is a fact.
Mr Speaker
Yes, there is not an unpurged contempt, and my recollection of the particular case, whose details I am broadly familiar with, is that he was not invited to apologise, but there was a contempt, and that is a matter of unarguable and incontrovertible fact. These matters came my way recently, in circumstances with which I need not trouble the House, but I do know of what I speak and there was a contempt.
Rachel Maclean
Thank you for that clarification, Mr Speaker. The question I was asked in the earlier intervention was how many I have worked with. I have not worked with Dominic Cummings, so I was answering a question in a quite straightforward way. I have made my point and I will bring my remarks to a close. I will not be supporting the Humble Address, for the reasons I have laid out, and the House would do well not to support it.
Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)
I rise to state the Scottish National party’s unequivocal support for this application and to congratulate the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) on obtaining this debate. Unlike the hon. Member for Redditch (Rachel Maclean), I am going to confine myself to the terms of the motion, but I wish gently to remind her that this motion is supported by Members from across the House, some of whom, like her, have constituencies that voted leave and some of whom, like me, have constituencies that voted remain. The will of the people in Scotland is to remain, so I have no shame in having that as my primary motivation. Having said that, I am also very concerned to ensure, for as long as I and my colleagues are here, that this Parliament and this Government do things properly, and there are strong grounds for suspicion that things have not been done properly in relation to this Prorogation. The dogs in the streets know that the reason this Prime Minister is proroguing Parliament is to avoid scrutiny as he hurtles towards 31 October and a no-deal Brexit. Nobody is fooled that the Prorogation has anything to do with the need to commence a new Session and to have a Queen’s Speech on pressing domestic Bills, which none of us has seen so far. If the litigation in which I and others in this House are involved in Scotland achieves nothing else, it will have shown that something is very much awry with the reasons given for the Prorogation.
Justine Greening
I agree with what the hon. and learned Lady says. Were we able to have a voice on this, many Members of this House would think that we should not even have the conference recess for three weeks and that Parliament should be here doing its job at a time of crisis, speaking on behalf of our communities.
Joanna Cherry
I entirely agree with the right hon. Lady on that matter. The documents lodged with the Scottish Court last week, and revealed to the public against the Government’s wishes but as a result of interventions by the legal team that I and others in this House instruct, and by the BBC and other newspapers, show that the Prime Minister had approved a plan to prorogue Parliament on 16 August. Yet, as the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield said in his opening speech, as late as 25 August a No. 10 spokesperson was still denying that there was any such plan to prorogue. Indeed, in the pleadings lodged by the Government in response to the action raised in Scotland by myself and other Members of this House, the British Government referred to our contention that we were in fear of a Prorogation as hypothetical and academic. So there are very real reasons to believe that this Government are economical with the truth.
The memos produced by the British Government showed not only the somewhat distasteful comment about girly swots, with which the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield dealt most ably, but that the reason why the current Prime Minister wants to prorogue this Parliament is because he wants to avoid what he referred to as the “rigmarole” of this Parliament sitting in September. So even if the Scottish case achieves nothing else, it has shown that the Government have not been entirely truthful so far.
Another myth was finally put to rest at the weekend when the right hon. Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) resigned. Most of us were not surprised to hear her confirm that there are, in fact, no renegotiations ongoing with the EU. Of course we already knew that from the former Chancellor of the Exchequer and from a number of counterparts in the EU. I noted last week at the Brexit Select Committee that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster initially tried to give the impression that negotiations were ongoing but when pressed on the matter he conceded that there are no negotiations as such, merely discussions. We heard that from him last week, but it was good to hear it from someone who has so recently been at the heart of government and has had the decency to leave the Government given what she has seen.
The weight of evidence regarding the damage that no deal would do to the nations of these islands is overwhelming. We all know that from the work we have done on Select Committees over the past few years—work that will not be happening in the next few weeks, when Parliament is prorogued. But still the Government will not tell us the truth about the assessments they have made of the impact of a no-deal Brexit and the preparations they are making for that. So it is right that this House seeks the documentation relating to Operation Yellowhammer.
I will now concentrate on the Prorogation case, because myself and a number of other MPs and peers, as well as Jo Maugham, QC, and the Good Law Project, have raised an action in Scotland, in which we argue that Parliament is being prorogued for an unlawful purpose and to prevent democratic scrutiny, and that therefore the courts should overturn the order to prorogue. Although the judge at first instance was not with us, we had a full hearing before Scotland’s Appeal Court last week, and we are awaiting the outcome of that decision on Wednesday. Of course a date, 17 September, has also been assigned at the UK Supreme Court to hear any further appeal in the Scottish case and also an appeal on the proceedings raised in England and Northern Ireland. Members of the public should be aware that if the courts eventually find out that Prorogation was unlawful, they can order this Parliament to return. So even if we are prorogued tonight, all is not lost.
In the course of these proceedings, something curious happened last week. I commend to hon. Members’ attention an interesting article about this in the Financial Times at the weekend by David Allen Green, the distinguished legal commentator, entitled: “The curious incident of the missing witness statement”. In the Scottish case, the petitioners argue that the Government had an improper motive in seeking Prorogation, and we say that the real intention was a cynical effort to close down Parliament so that it could not block a no-deal Brexit. Usually, there is a pretty straightforward way for the Government or the responding party to rebut or refute an allegation of such bad faith. Where somebody is facing such an allegation of bad faith, the normal thing to do in an action of judicial review would be to submit a sworn statement—an affidavit—setting out the way in which the decision was made and that the decision was properly taken and to lodge relevant supportive documentation. What happened last week in Edinburgh was that the Government did not provide any such witness statement. They provided no such sworn affidavit and no official explanation. They simply supplied some documents, heavily redacted, without any covering explanation. The absence of such a statement in such litigation is, as David Allen Green says, very “conspicuous”.
Kevin Brennan
I am certainly not a lawyer, but general knowledge leads me to ask: is what the Government are doing here not, in effect, the equivalent, in American terms, of taking the fifth—refusing to give evidence on the basis that it might incriminate them or cause them to commit perjury?
Joanna Cherry
It does rather have the whiff of that.
At Prime Minister’s questions last week, the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield asked the Prime Minister why it had proved impossible during the Scottish legal proceedings to find any Government official or Minister who was prepared to state on oath in a sworn statement the reasons for Prorogation. The Prime Minister did not answer the question. As the right hon. and learned Gentleman explained earlier, it has been suggested to a number of Members, myself included, by reliable sources, that Government officials were approached by the Government Legal Service about swearing such statements but refused to do so. I cannot know the reasons why they refused to sign a sworn statement; I can only speculate. I speculate that perhaps they refused for fear of perjuring themselves, or for fear that to tell the truth would be damaging to the Government. The idea that any Government official should be put in a position in which they fear having to perjure themselves before the courts of the jurisdictions of Scotland or England, or indeed any jurisdiction in the United Kingdom, is very concerning.
The same sources that suggested that officials have refused to sign sworn statements have also suggested to me, and to other Members of the House, that key figures in No. 10 and the Government have been communicating about the real reasons for Prorogation not through the official channels of Government emails and memos, but by personal email, WhatsApp and “burner” phones—normally used by people involved in a criminal enterprise to avoid being traced. If that is true, they will have adopted a subterfuge, and there can only really be one reason for that: to conceal the real reasons for Prorogation from the scrutiny of this House and, very seriously, the scrutiny of the courts.
The right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield explained at some length what careful thought he has given to the way in which this has been presented. I will not repeat any of that, other than to say that he has clearly applied his mind very carefully to it, and the allegations that underlie the motion are very serious. If there is no truth in them, so be it. But let us pass the motion and let there be transparency and accountability, because those are the two things, I suggest, that this Prime Minister and his shabby Administration fear the most.
Caroline Lucas
The hon. and learned Lady is making a powerful case. Does she agree that this Government’s cavalier treatment of parliamentary procedure and democratic principle underlines the need not for uncodified practices but for a written constitution and, in particular, a citizens’ assembly that could once again put the people at the heart of our democracy?
Joanna Cherry
I agree with my hon. Friend, but I would take the argument further, because the shabby practices of this Government and the creaking of the British constitution underline, in my mind, the need for my country to be independent of this mess.
Even as we have been speaking this afternoon, it has been reported on Twitter—this point has already been alluded to—that unidentified No. 10 sources are saying that even if we pass this motion for an Humble Address tonight, they will not comply with it. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I am extremely grateful to the hon. and learned Lady, but I gently point out to her that, as there is a significant number of other Members waiting to contribute, and as the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has every right and reasonable expectation to think that he will have 10 minutes or so to speak, I am cautiously optimistic that she is approaching her peroration.
Joanna Cherry
You are correct, Mr Speaker; I am about to draw my remarks to a close.
I am a student more of Scottish history than of English history, but our histories are bound together, and I know enough about English history to know that it was secret, unaccountable whispers of poison that brought down Edward II and Richard II. I suspect that this Prime Minister will be brought down by secret, unaccountable whispers of poison, such as those in the unattributable briefings we heard this afternoon. Let us make sure that this House and the courts see the contents of the secret whispers of poison that preceded this Prorogation, so that we can all see the real reasons why the House of Commons has been prorogued by an Executive terrified of scrutiny.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
Now, a self-denying ordinance would help. I think that the right hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson) can probably deliver himself of his thoughts on this matter within five minutes.
Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con)
I will be extremely brief, Mr Speaker, as I came to the debate with no intention of speaking. I just want to make the point that the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) talks about “secrets” and “poison”. We are naming nine individuals here, some of whom have never worked for the Government before, and some of whom have been working as special advisers for only a week or 10 days. Bluntly, this whole debate offends my sense of fairness. We have a long tradition that people are innocent until proven guilty, yet the hon. and learned Lady assumes instant guilt on the part of these people. We all know that there are probably two names that she would love to flush out, but there are other individuals listed here. Members should just think about this, because these are junior people who have not worked for the Government for very long.
Mr Paterson
No, I will not give way.
There are significant figures who could have been chosen, such as the Cabinet Secretary, or learned counsel who advise the Government—Treasury counsel and people like that. I received a very unsatisfactory answer earlier when I asked what criteria the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) had applied for naming these people. Before this witch hunt atmosphere continues, would Opposition Members like to consider that they are talking about nine relatively junior members assisting the Government? There are two names that we know they would very much like to flush out, but can we just think of the impact on these people of having their private emails and phone messages to family and friends inspected?
Who is the omniscient person—this great fount of wisdom—who will judge whether those messages are pertinent to the motion. Before Members vote for the motion, I would like them to consider who that person will be. Who will be the chairman of the committee of public safety who will make those decisions?
Are those Members prepared to put their private communications on the record? I am sure that the right hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer) has had many communications with senior members of the European Commission. Only this afternoon, Mr Guy Verhofstadt gave a great paean of praise to you, Mr Speaker—he is going to welcome you to the European Parliament—but I very much doubt that you will make available to us your private communications with him.
You asked me to be brief, Mr Speaker, and I will be. Could we please just recognise that this motion is invidious and unfair? It chooses nine names arbitrarily. If people were really on a fishing expedition, they could have gone wider and gone for more senior figures. Of course, the person they are really after is the Prime Minister, and he does come to this House, and there will be many opportunities to ask him the questions, because ultimately he is the one they should be after.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
We are deeply obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. We now need very short speeches, of no more than four minutes.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
I will certainly speak within the four-minute limit, Mr Speaker.
I wish to focus on Operation Yellowhammer. The issue with Prorogation is whether the Government deliberately misled Parliament. The issue with Operation Yellowhammer is whether the Government are deliberately withholding key documents from Parliament and the public.
Members of Parliament will have seen The Sunday Times last month when it published the leak of Operation Yellowhammer and said that Britain would face shortages of fuel, food and medicine and three months of chaos at its ports in the event of a no-deal exit. The report went on to warn that lorries might face delays of two-and-a-half days at ports and that medical supplies might be vulnerable to severe extended delays. It also said that the Government had expected the return of a hard border in Ireland. We have not, of course, been able to see this document, because the Government have not been willing to provide it to us, but what we have had is a series of Ministers touring studios saying, in effect, that there is nothing to see in this document, that there is nothing to worry about and that everything is under control. I am afraid that, at the same time, we see reports that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has sought to sanitise it. Having apparently failed to sanitise it, he has simply decided to rely on the fact that the report will not be published at all.
I have sought assurances from the Government that if civil servants were asked to modify this document—in effect to sanitise it—that would be in breach of the ministerial code. I have also asked whether those civil servants would be subject to disciplinary action if they refuse to sanitise it and whether, if they spoke out because they noticed that the documents had been sanitised, they would be covered by whistleblower legislation. When I asked for this information, I was referred to the evidence that the Minister gave to the Select Committee, or was about to give to the Select Committee, last week. After he had given evidence, I went hotfoot, as Members would expect me to do, to see whether he had answered any of these questions, and, of course, he had not. When he replies now, perhaps, rather than sending me a letter referring me to evidence in which he has not answered the question, he would like to answer those specific questions, because we need to have that information available.
Businesses are trying to prepare for no deal. The Government are withholding information from them. At the same time, the Minister in charge of local government is writing to local authorities telling them that they have to provide information to residents and businesses about what preparations they are making in relation to no deal. It does seem that if the Government are asking local authority leaders to make that information available, there is a duty on them to make that information available. Yet what we have from the Government is the withholding of this critical information that would allow all of us to prepare for a no-deal scenario.
It may be that the Government are worried that putting this information into the public domain might lead to shortages of food. To some extent, I understand that, and, if that is the case, that would be less than perfect. Again, I did suggest to the Minister that the Government might want to release the information on Privy Council terms to Privy Counsellors and allow us to access that information. Clearly, I would prefer all Members of Parliament to be able to see that information, but if that is one way that the Government would feel more confident that the information could be shared, then they could do that.
I hope that, when we get a response from the Minister, he will be quite specific in answering these questions, which have so far been avoided by the Government. We would all like to know the answers to those questions so that we have a degree of certainty about what the impact of no deal will be, so that we can all help businesses and others to prepare for that eventuality.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
Let me see—[Interruption.] Oh, I do beg the pardon of the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare); I think he used to make those sorts of coughing noises when he was at Oxford with my wife 30 years ago. Yes, very good—he has three or four minutes now.
Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)
I think I can say without peradventure that they were happier days, Mr Speaker.
I will vote against the motion this evening for the very clear reason that Government must function. If officials and advisers are to provide information to Ministers, they should be able to do so freely and without any thought that their correspondence, while in an official capacity, will be dragged before us. However, I will, if I may, make a couple of important caveated points. My understanding is that our unwritten constitution, as crazy and as byzantine as it often can be, can only work, and can only continue to work, where there is trust, where there are checks and where there are balances. Those three things must be observed and maintained.
We all hear the phrase, “Through the usual channels”. We all know what that means. This place would not function—our constitution would not function—without the daily conversations between the principal parties in this place and others on how legislation is going to be delivered. It does not matter to this motion whether one voted leave or remain or even abstained in the referendum campaign—a number of right hon. and hon. Members have referred to that. The motion is about the functioning of Government and, as a number of colleagues have said, trust. It matters that good practice and the rule of law are followed. People in this place and, indeed, in the country are broadly satisfied in accepting a decision if and when they are confident that the means by which that decision has been arrived at is clear and fair—or, as I would say colloquially, it has passed the sniff test.
Interestingly, I have had, as I am sure we have all had, hundreds, if not thousands, of emails over the past month advocating position x, y, or z with regard to leaving the European Union, but I have not had a single email from a constituent—not even from the most avowed and determined advocates of Brexit in my constituency—who has felt that proroguing Parliament has been the right thing to do. We should not be hiding behind the narrative of, “Well, we were going to rise for three weeks anyway for the conference recess”. Having had six weeks off already, the conference recess should not have been used as an argument to support a Prorogation. The conference recess should not have been taking place, and the conferences should either have been cancelled or gone on in a lesser form. I do not think that that narrative passes the test. It is interesting that I have had no correspondence on the matter—I will probably regret saying that when I am inundated tonight and tomorrow—from any constituent saying that Prorogation is the right thing to do.
I urge my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Treasury Bench to consider those points and, importantly, to take on to ourselves the humility that, certainly last week, we were a minority Administration. I have lost track of the figures slightly, but we do not have such muscularity of numbers that we can deal lightly with constitutional norms and with this place.
I am concerned that, as was flushed out at the urgent question on Thursday, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland—and, as I understand it, every other Cabinet Minister—has still not received legal advice from my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General with regard to Prorogation. We have had the legal advice of the Attorney General published in the past. I am not a lawyer, but I understand that, in normal times, it is perfectly proper for that to be under lawyer-client privilege. However, we all recall that we saw the legal advice of the Attorney General with regard to the amendments that the then Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), had secured and how they had affected the legal status of the withdrawal agreement. There is therefore a precedent for the publication of legal advice. As somebody who is concerned to get leaving the European Union right on behalf of my constituents, but also as the chairman of the Northern Ireland Committee, I think that the legislative needs of Northern Ireland, particularly in the scenario of a no-deal exit, are being ridden roughshod over by the fact that the House is being prorogued this evening.
I seek assurance from my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster that the needs of Northern Ireland and the need to maintain the unity of our United Kingdom, which he and I hold to be incredibly precious, are not being dealt with in a cavalier fashion. I will be voting against this motion, but the Government do need to think about how they deal with these matters.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
We need to have even shorter speeches, because the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster must have his opportunity to respond. I am sure that a great intellectual colossus such as the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) can express her thoughts in two minutes.
Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)
I put my name to this motion for three very simple reasons. I agree with what many Members across the House have said about what our constituents do not understand about what is going on in this place. First, many do not understand the concept of Prorogation. Indeed, one of my constituents thought it was something to do with pierogi—dumplings. They do not understand why, when this country is facing a massive crisis, MPs are upping sticks and going home. When I tell them that it is not of my choosing, they ask “Whose choosing was it?” This motion is about people understanding that process. As the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare) said, it is about asking, “Does it pass the sniff test?” The honest truth is that everything we have seen to date says that it simply does not.
Secondly, my constituents do not really understand the machinations of official channels and the civil service code, but they do get that an unelected cabal of people are making decisions about their future without any accountability. To Government Members who are concerned about the concept of being able to look at private emails, I gently say that they might wish to google the concept and revisit some of the situations that the House had to deal with in 2011 and in 2013, precisely regarding civil servants and special advisers using official channels to conduct official business. I am sure that there are Members on the Front Bench who can tell them of that time and of the clarity that was given that such information would be FOI-able. This is not something new; it is simply about the exigency of seeing that information when we are making decisions.
There is a third thing that my constituents would not really understand. They do not know what a no-deal Brexit entails—nobody really does because, thankfully, we have not yet experienced it—but they do know that there are doctors going on the national airwaves to tell them that the Government are stockpiling body bags, and they are then hearing the Leader of the House discrediting those very same doctors.
There is a simple question at the heart of this motion, which is the question that I suspect all our constituents, whether we represent leave or remain constituencies, have been asking us over the last couple of weeks: what on earth is going on? The honest truth, if we want to talk about truth in this place, is that none of us can really answer those questions, because we have not seen the homework on why Prorogation has suddenly appeared and what a no-deal Brexit would actually mean—whether it is true that 85% of lorries travelling across the channel are not ready for French customs or that the supply of fresh food will be disrupted. The simple truth may even be that if the situation is not as far-fetched as the stories in the press, just publishing Yellowhammer will set everybody’s minds at rest. This motion is about us being able to do what we should be able to do best: inform our constituents, and hold the Government and their advisers to account. I urge everyone to support it.
Several hon. Members rose—
Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
This motion is about trust. We should understand the people we are dealing with.
As recently as July 2019, the Electoral Commission published detailed evidence upon which it based its finding that Vote Leave committed electoral offences in the immediate lead-up to the 2016 referendum. In March 2019, Vote Leave itself admitted to breaking the electoral law. Electoral law is there to safeguard democracy. Vote Leave’s offences are set out in detail in the July 2019 Electoral Commission findings, which explain that Vote Leave conspired, quite deliberately, to break the referendum spending limits by channelling money to the Canadian company AggregateIQ through an alternative funding stream. Dominic Cummings, working for Vote Leave at the time, explained in evidence disclosed by the Electoral Commission that
“there is another organisation that could spend your money. Would you be willing to spend the 100k to some social media ninjas who could usefully spend it…in the final crucial 5 days. Obviously it would be entirely legal.”
As we now know from the Electoral Commission—and accepted by Vote Leave—it was entirely illegal. Dominic Cummings said that this spending was “crucial.”
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster knew of these payments. In an interview with Dermot Murnaghan of Sky News, he said that he knew of these illegal payments, but not until after the referendum had taken place. On 5 August this year, following his appointment as the Minister responsible for electoral reform, I wrote to him asking when he knew of the illegal payments, which I believe to be a matter of crucial public interest. He has not replied.
Dominic Cummings has refused to give evidence to the Select Committee on Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, frustrating its inquiry, and has been found to be in contempt of Parliament. When he was appointed as the Prime Minister’s adviser, I wrote to the Prime Minister, asking him to instruct Dominic Cummings to give evidence to the Committee. The Prime Minister has refused to do this. These are the people who are making these decisions, and we cannot trust them to make the right ones. I therefore support the motion.
Dr Rosena Allin-Khan (Tooting) (Lab)
It is an absolute disgrace that tonight we will go home for a number of weeks, after we have already been off for many weeks already.
This Government are playing games. Although I am the MP for Tooting, I am also a Tooting girl, who was voted here to do her job: for the five-year-old boy who is starving and has to go to the local food bank—he has not got time for games; for the mother who is waiting for her delayed cancer treatment—she has not got time for games; and for the family who have been failed by the Department for Work and Pensions, who are starving, cannot pay their electricity bills and face another cold winter—they have not got time for games. We are letting the public down at a time when there has never been greater distrust between them and us in here. The mother in my patch who has to bury her son, and who knows that her other children have no opportunity, does not have time for the games that we are playing in this House. To the people sitting in the Gallery, we are a laughing stock. Leaving without a deal makes the very poorest and most vulnerable in our communities and society even worse off.
So today I say, on behalf of Balham, Tooting, Furzedown and Earlsfield, that this Government are a disgrace and proroguing Parliament is a disgrace. I am here in my capacity as an MP and as a regular, ordinary girl from Tooting, who had never been in this place until she was elected to be here. We deserve better and our communities deserve better. Let us be here to do our jobs.
Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
Like many Members’ constituents, many of my constituents in Cardiff have told me over the weekend that they are simply totally confused about what is going on. They are not interested in the procedures and the chicanery; they are interested in their lives, and what difference the proceedings here make to them.
So why does this motion matter and why am I supporting it? Well, the gag that the Government are going to put on Parliament tonight prevents us from having Treasury questions, Northern Ireland questions, Prime Minister’s questions, Digital, Culture, Media and Sport questions and questions to the Attorney General, whose legal advice is so crucial to this situation. It prevents us from having debates on the battle of Arnhem, in which my grandfather served and was taken prisoner of war; the pension age of our police; sanctions; refugees; climate change; EU citizens; the middle east; fracking; Northern Ireland; chemicals; sexual violence; and children.
Proroguing Parliament will prevent the discussion and agreement of the Agriculture Bill, the Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, the Trade Bill, the customs Bill, the Wild Animals in Circuses Bill and, crucially, the Domestic Abuse Bill, yet this Government have carried on with this gag. They tell us it is because they want to set out provisions for a new Queen’s Speech and a new programme for government. Who are they fooling? We know the truth. We know why this is being done—the Prime Minister’s own documents have revealed it.
The Prorogation plot was known well before. How was it that I was able to know about it in the early hours of the morning—before it was announced, before you had been told, Mr Speaker, before the Cabinet had been told and before the country had been informed? How was it that journalists were able to know that night and I was able to know, yet No. 10 Downing Street was still denying that this gag was going to go forward? No. 10 was denying it days before, yet as was revealed, the decision was taken on 16 August. That goes to the heart of this motion.
This is about trust in a Government who cannot be trusted, it is about our constituents’ lives and the issues that matter to them, which go well beyond Brexit, and it is about the national security and safety of this country. The Yellowhammer documents should be made public so that we all know the true risk to this country of a no-deal Brexit.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Michael Gove)
It is a pleasure to speak in this debate after a number of important, serious and passionate speeches. It is important that we pay appropriate regard to this Humble Address, standing as it does in the name of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) and supported as it has been by three distinguished QCs in two of the three jurisdictions of these islands.
Important issues are raised by this Humble Address. There is a request implicit in it for full information for this House about the consequences of leaving the European Union. I would emphasise that the opportunity for not just Members of this House but citizens in this country to make sure that they are familiar with all the consequences—and, indeed, the opportunities—of leaving the European Union is at the heart of the Government’s information strategy. Some have suggested that it is somehow propaganda. Far from it: it is an effort to ensure that the facts are laid out in an accessible way to every citizen. So whether it is a simple matter of individuals knowing what their rights might be if they happen to be UK nationals abroad, or businesses who require to know what the customs procedures are in order to export, that is all in the public domain.
Michael Gove
Not at this point.
Indeed, that is not the only thing that is in the public domain. As a result of a court case that has been brought by the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) and others, we also have in the public domain the submission that went to the Prime Minister on which he made his decision. Submissions such as this, and Government policy that rests on them, are not ordinarily made public, but, quite properly, following the duty of candour in respect of that judicial review, that information was published. There it is in black and white: the reasons that were put to the Prime Minister for going down this course of action, and indeed the reasons that led him to make that decision. I would say that it is not unprecedented, but rare, that such a degree—
Lady Hermon
I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene on him. He will of course be entirely aware that last Thursday, during an urgent question, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, who is a very good appointment indeed, made it quite clear that he had not been consulted by the Prime Minister about the plan for Prorogation; he was told only just before it was publicly announced. Therefore, we have a Secretary of State for Northern Ireland who is facing a perfect storm of the possibility of a no-deal Brexit and no functioning Assembly—and no expectation of one any day soon. How can it possibly be that the Minister is telling the House that the Prime Minister had a paper that he did not even share with the Cabinet?
Michael Gove
The hon. Lady raises at least two important points. First, we are of course absolutely aware that whatever the impacts of a no-deal Brexit, they are likely to be more acute, in a number of ways, in Northern Ireland. She is absolutely right that that extends not just to the economy of Northern Ireland but to security considerations. Let me take this opportunity to pay tribute to the work of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, who have been very clear about what the risks are and their attempts to mitigate them.
On the broader point, submissions that would go to the Prime Minister would not normally be circulated to the whole of the Cabinet, any more than submissions that go to an individual Minister would. This goes to the very heart of what is being requested. That submission is already there, but we are now being asked to give this House and, indeed, the world not just those submissions but every possible communication that any civil servant might have entertained beforehand in helping to advise the Prime Minister on the correct course of action. It is a basic principle of good government observed by Governments—Labour, Conservative and Scottish National party—that there should be a safe space for the advice that civil servants give.
Michael Gove
No.
The Cabinet Secretary, when he appeared before the Procedure Committee, made it clear that this convention that advice should be private has applied to Governments of all parties throughout the history of the civil service. He said that the Humble Address—the particular procedure that we are debating today—has a chilling effect that is to the severe detriment both of the operation of government and the public record of Government decisions. That is the Cabinet Secretary’s view. It is interesting that my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield said that of the nine people whom he names, only one was a civil servant. Four are civil servants, including the Cabinet Secretary, and he has been clear, as Administrations of every colour have been clear, that they do not disclose this information.
Indeed, sometimes—I listened with care to what the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South said—there are Administrations who say that they do not reveal legal advice even when it does not exist. She told us that if we had an independent Scotland, the rules, procedures and practices in an independent Scotland would set an example to us here. But the former First Minister of Scotland, Alex Salmond, told the BBC that he had legal advice on the impact of Scotland being independent in Europe, and then, when he was asked to publish that legal advice, spent £20,000 of Scottish taxpayers’ money fighting that and saying that no freedom of information requests should be granted. Then eventually, when the court found out what had happened, there was no legal advice at all. So I will take no lectures from the Scottish National party about trust or transparency.
Michael Gove
No, no—absolutely not. [Interruption.] No—no, thank you.
What is being asked of this House is more than just the publication of advice: private communications of a variety of public servants are about to be published if this Humble Address is published. My right hon. and learned Friend did not ask specifically in this Humble Address—
Michael Gove
No. [Interruption.] No, thank you.
He did not—[Interruption.] I am not scared of the truth—Alex Salmond was scared of the truth, which is why he spent my mum and dad’s money to hide the truth.
Michael Gove
No, I will not give way.
If the Humble Address had been shaped in such a way as to say that official advice was requested, the Government would have sought to collaborate that—co-operate, I should say—with my right hon. and learned Friend. But this is a trawl—a fishing expedition in which every single communication from public servants is being requested if it has anything to do in any way with Prorogation. If there are officials or special advisers who are communicating with one another about personal matters, then that would be within the scope of this Humble Address. It is unprecedented. It takes a coach and horses through our data protection legislation. It is questionable in terms of the article 8 rights that individuals have under the European convention on human rights, and it would, for the first time, say—
Michael Gove
No, no.
It would, for the first time, say that the House of Commons, by a simple majority vote, can say that any individual’s communications should be rendered transparent. Do Members realise what they are doing? No criminal offence is alleged. The sole purpose of this is to determine what may or may not have been the private opinion of civil servants and special advisers. The idea that, in order to discern exactly what they thought, we will trample over data protection law, ECHR rights and the principle of safe space is an unprecedented example of those who claim to revere—
Michael Gove
No, no, no. [Hon. Members: “Give way.”] Mr Speaker, I reserve the right to take any intervention I wish, and I will in a second. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. There is so much noise that it would be understandable if the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster were unable to hear the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), who was bidding to intervene. Whether he accepts the intervention is a matter for him, but it is important that attempted interventions are audible.
Michael Gove
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I shall not take any interventions because it is important that I make progress.
I want to underline that these propositions are being put forward by people who say—and I believe them—that they take the rule of law seriously, but in their desire to rifle through the private correspondence of individuals, they set aside legal precedent, set aside the good workings of government, and set aside the rights of individuals.
Let me turn briefly to the particular part—
Ian C. Lucas
It is a point of order. I wrote to the Secretary of State on 5 August asking him a specific question—when he knew about the illegal payments of Vote Leave. He has not answered my letter, and he refuses to take an intervention. I have raised it in this debate again. How will I get a straight answer, on trust, from the Secretary of State?
Mr Speaker
Persist, man! Persist by asking further questions or sending follow-up letters—keep buggering on at all times.
Michael Gove
In his speech, the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian C. Lucas) answered his own question. He explained that I had said to Dermot Murnaghan on Sky News exactly when I knew about these payments. He can ask as many times as he likes for me to repeat the answer, but I gave the answer months ago.
Talking of politicians who cannot see what is in front of them, we come to Yellowhammer. The point has been made that it is critical that we share with this House as much as we can, and I am absolutely committed to that. In the evidence that I gave to the Exiting the European Union Committee last Thursday—
Michael Gove
No. In the evidence that I gave, I made it clear—I am grateful to the Chairman of that Committee for allowing me to do so—that we wanted to publish and would publish a revised Yellowhammer document. It is also important to recognise that the shadow Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, the right hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer), described Yellowhammer as both an “impact assessment” and a “likely scenario”. I was clear in the evidence, which was accepted by the Chairman in that Committee, that it was neither an impact assessment nor a likely scenario. The right hon. and learned Gentleman says that he wants scrutiny of our no-deal assumptions, but when that scrutiny is given and when the facts are in front, he seems not to be interested, not to read it or not to know what has been said. He says he wants scrutiny, but when he gets scrutiny, he cannot be bothered to take account of it.
Mr Grieve
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way, and I am sorry to take him back to the issue about Prorogation and its origins. Would he like to explain at the Dispatch Box why no affidavit was filed by any official relating to the circumstances in which Prorogation was decided upon? He will understand that the suggestion is that, in fact, the explanation given by the Government is inaccurate, that the decisions and work on proroguing this House to prevent us from scrutinising the Brexit process were taken earlier and that there is evidence of it in the interchange of communications between special advisers and others in government.
Michael Gove
I know what the right hon. and learned Gentleman suspects, and he has been fair in laying it out clearly, but the question that this House has to ask is, are we prepared—[Interruption.] The question before the House is this—[Hon. Members: “Answer the question!”] I am answering the question. The question before the House is this. We know what the right hon. and learned Gentleman is concerned about, and we know what his concerns are, but are we willing, in order to satisfy his curiosity on this point, to make sure that data protection legislation, the EHRC and the standard practices of government are overturned? I should say to the right hon. and learned Gentleman that we have published in unprecedented detail, in conformity with the duty of candour, all the information required—
Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab)
claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).
Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.
Question agreed to.
Main Question put accordingly.
European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019 (Rule of Law)
(5 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Speaker
We now come to the motion in the name of the Leader of the Opposition, to be moved under Standing Order No. 24. I remind the House, although I am sure that colleagues are keenly conscious of every word of it, that the motion is
“That this House has considered the welcome completion of all parliamentary stages of the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill and has considered the matter of the importance of the rule of law and Ministers’ obligation to comply with the law.”
I call the Leader of the Opposition to move the motion.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered the welcome completion of all parliamentary stages of the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill and has considered the matter of the importance of the rule of law and Ministers’ obligation to comply with the law.
I welcome the decision that the House has just reached, and I look forward to the Government abiding by and accepting that decision, and the necessary documents being released.
I begin by welcoming the cross-party efforts of many Members of the House in getting the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act passed into law, particularly those of my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) and the right hon. Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin). Parliament has passed a law to ensure that the will of Parliament is upheld. The fact that Parliament is compelled to pass a law to ensure that its will is upheld shows what extraordinary times we live in. The House has rejected no deal. Businesses and trade unions are united in rejecting no deal, and there is no majority for it across the country. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, the co-convenor of the Vote Leave campaign, said in March this year:
“We didn’t vote to leave without a deal”.
It is clear—there is no mandate for no deal.
In trying to diminish the Act, the Government’s spin doctors have branded it the surrender Bill, and Ministers have dutifully trotted out that phrase in the media. The Minister who is going to reply has already replied, like Pavlov’s dogs always do.
I remind the House again: we are not at war. The Prime Minister seems obsessed with hyperbole and aggressive language: “surrender Bill”; “do or die”; “rather be dead in a ditch”; and the list goes on. We are supposed to be having negotiations with our European partners. The lives at stake as a result of all this are not those of the Prime Minister or his Cabinet.
Jeremy Corbyn
Indeed. I do not keep the Prime Minister’s diary. He may keep his own, but he is certainly not here to reply to this debate. I believe he ought to be, as the motion is specifically directed at him. [Interruption.] Again, I cannot help with that question, but others may be able to do so. We learned from leaked Government papers that our constituents whose medical supplies are at risk from a reckless no deal are very worried, so I urge the Government and Members in all parts of the House to tone down the rhetoric and inflammatory language, and try to heal, not widen, divisions in society. I give credit to those who have worked in a cross-party way, and I have been happy to have meetings with all Opposition party leaders.
A law has been passed by this House and by the other place, and the Government must abide by it. It is not complicated—it is very straightforward and simple.
Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)
Last week, I asked the Prime Minister whether, if the Bill became law, he, as the Prime Minister of our country, would obey the law. He said that he would, and so would the Government. The next day he announced that he would rather be dead in a ditch than obey the law. Which does my right hon. Friend think it is?
Jeremy Corbyn
I do not really wish anyone dead in a ditch, even if that is their own wish. The first answer that the Prime Minister gave ought to have been that he accepted the will of the democratically elected Parliament. This is a parliamentary democracy—we do not have an executive president who can rule over us. We have to make it very clear that we expect the Prime Minister to abide by the details and specifics of the law that has been passed, which makes specific requirements of him.
Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP)
The Leader of the Opposition is making some very important points. The conduct not just of this debate but of the whole discourse is important. He referred to the Government’s characterisation of the Act as a surrender Bill. Do not the Government bear responsibility for the language that they use? When we hear the language on the streets—he, I and many others have been told that we are traitors, and have sometimes heard much more abusive language—the Government have a responsibility to recognise the impact of their language and actions outside Parliament.
Jeremy Corbyn
The right hon. Gentleman is quite right. Language has consequences, as people trot out what has been said by the Prime Minister and others, and turn it into the most abusive language and the most abusive behaviour against others. Surely we can have an intelligent debate in our society without resorting to the kind of behaviour, language or violence that has been threatened against some individuals.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
The Leader of the Opposition is very generous in giving way. When talking about the rule of law, if we get to 31 October and one of the other European countries says that we cannot extend, would he support coming out with no deal, because that is the law?
Jeremy Corbyn
That is an entirely hypothetical question. The question that the Prime Minister has to answer is: an Act of Parliament has been passed, and it requires him to take a specific course of action. He, in his many statements over the past few days, appears to contradict the wishes of Parliament that he carry out those actions. Let us not go down a hypothetical road—let us get an answer from the Government about whether or not they accept the decision of Parliament to pass that legislation into law. It is not difficult, and I am sure that when the Minister comes to reply he will give us an answer—I seriously hope so.
It is not only Conservative Members who are encouraging the Prime Minister to break the law in their numerous WhatsApp groups. Cabinet Ministers are refusing to confirm that the Government will abide by the law.
Jeremy Corbyn
One second. Even the Prime Minister himself implies that he will break the law.
Jeremy Corbyn
No, I will not give way at the moment.
No. 10 has briefed that the Prime Minister will defy the law. Until the Government have abided by that law, I do not believe there will be a majority in the House for what the Prime Minister is proposing later today under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011.
Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)
I would like to go back to the point that was just made about what happens if we reach the end of the October and one or more EU countries do not give an extension. The clock is ticking towards the end of October, and surely we should focus on supporting getting a deal now, rather than kicking the can further down the road. If there is no extension, what does the Leader of the Opposition suggest is done?
Jeremy Corbyn
We have always wanted to get a deal, but what we do not want is the no-deal exit with all the dangers to jobs, living standards and supplies, and the Prime Minister and his chums taking us down the road into the arms of Donald Trump and the trade arrangements he will make with the United States.
Last week, the Prime Minister had several opportunities at the Dispatch Box, but on each and every occasion he failed to give a single detail, in response to numerous questions, about what the Government are aiming to negotiate in terms of a new deal with the European Union.
Mr Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con)
Will the Leader of the Opposition give way?
Jeremy Corbyn
I am glad the hon. Gentleman managed to read out his intervention that was given to him earlier.
This is a debate about a Government saying that they will not abide by a law passed by this Parliament. I would have thought it was very straightforward. The Prime Minister should simply say, “This House voted. Of course the Executive must accept the decision.”
This weekend the right hon. Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) resigned.
Jeremy Corbyn
No, I will not give way any more.
The right hon. Member for Hastings and Rye resigned, saying that she had not seen any intensity of work going into negotiations with the EU. She stated:
“I no longer believe leaving with a deal is the Government’s main objective.”
That is a pretty big statement for a member of the Cabinet to make on resigning. Many of us had suspected that for a month or more, but perhaps a five-week delay is par for the course for the former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. This week, the Chancellor could give no response to what was being negotiated, and not one shred of evidence that the Government have made any proposals whatsoever. Just this morning the Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, said he has yet to receive
“realistic, legally-binding and workable”
plans to replace the backstop. The former Work and Pensions Secretary is therefore right to be concerned that only minimal effort, at best, is going into finding a negotiated deal.
It would be unusual for a Prime Minister to lose the confidence of the House so early in his tenure. It is extraordinary that he is already losing the confidence of his own Cabinet Ministers. If his own Cabinet members cannot have faith in his words, it explains why this House has found it necessary to legislate. For all the many criticisms I had of the right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), as Prime Minister she welcomed scrutiny, and, as much as I often disagreed with the policy positions she set out, she saw herself as a public servant. If the Government have a position on Brexit, I hope they will publish it. This House and the people of this country deserve to be able to discuss it, and I am a strong believer that policies are improved by scrutiny.
Jeremy Corbyn
No, I will not give way. I have made that clear already.
In her resignation letter, the right hon. Member for Hastings and Rye said the Prime Minister had committed an
“assault on democracy and decency”.
I would go further: the Prime Minister is also threatening an assault on the rule of law. He was asked on Friday whether he would abide by the provisions of the European Union (Withdrawal) (No.6) Bill, as it then was, and said he would rather die in a ditch. I do not wish him any ill. I do, however, wish that he would come to the Dispatch Box, set out his detailed plan for Brexit and confirm that he will abide by the law. More than that, the people of this country deserve, and democracy demands, up-front answers from the Prime Minister. So far, no answers have been forthcoming.
I hope the Prime Minister will live up to the office he holds, accept the decisions made by this Parliament, and carry out the wishes of the Act to ensure an application is made to prevent this country crashing out on 31 October, with all the damage that will do to food supplies, medicine supplies, and industrial supplies, and prevent his longer-term ambitions of heading this country in a totally different direction which many, many people are truly frightened of. The Prime Minister could sort this out very quickly if he just had the courtesy to come to the House and confirm he will accept all the provisions of the Act the House has just passed.
Mr Speaker
I seek a right hon. or hon. Member on the Government Benches, but it is not immediately obvious that any wishes to contribute. [Laughter.] I do not see why that is a source of such hilarity; I am just making a rather prosaic, factual observation. [Interruption.] Order. Who was that chuntering from a sedentary position?
Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (IGC)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Is this in order? I think we all want to know who is going to reply for the Government. If it is the Foreign Secretary, many of us will find that surprising. Given the content of the motion, which is all about the rule of law, why is one of Her Majesty’s Law Officers, either the Secretary of State for Justice or the Attorney General, not replying on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government? Mr Speaker, I appreciate that you cannot answer on behalf of the Government, as much as I suppose you would like to, but this is a very serious matter, and a Law Officer should be answering the arguments being put forward in this debate.
Mr Speaker
The right hon. Lady may be flummoxed or irked to discover that the Government do not notify me of their intentions in relation to who might or might not speak. Unless there is a note that lists that, I do not have any intelligence on the matter. I am advised that the Foreign Secretary intends to wind up the debate for the Government. It is open to him, fleet of foot and intellectually dextrous as he is, to leap to his feet and deliver his oration now in substitution for the opportunity later, but he is not under any obligation to do so. [Interruption.] It appears that he does not wish to do so. However, Mr Peter Bone apparently does wish to speak. I call Mr Peter Bone.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Speaker. [Interruption.] I think it a slightly outrageous suggestion from the shadow Chancellor that I should speak for the Government. I do not know who is more offended, me or the Government.
I rise very briefly to say that I do not welcome the passage of a Bill that has been rushed through the House in a totally outrageous manner without proper scrutiny. [Interruption.] I have no idea whether it has received Royal Assent or not. If it has, it is the law of the land. It still does not make it a good law. It seems to me that every Government would abide by the law. The point I made to the Leader of the Opposition is that the idea we have passed an Act of Parliament that takes no deal off the table is blindingly obviously not true, because we do not have that power. You may say that this Parliament wants an extension—that is one thing—but to say that every single European Union member country has to grant that extension is just wrong.
Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)
Will my hon. Friend confirm that one of the special circumstances in which the European Union would decide to give an extension is if there is an election? If the Opposition were to vote for an election tonight—we might then have, if they are confident, a new Prime Minister—that would guarantee an extension. What has been done today, however, does not guarantee an extension.
Mr Bone
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend, and it may well be that tonight the Leader of the Opposition will see the wisdom of her words and the Opposition will vote for a general election. I did a bit of research, and it is interesting that in this House, the Leader of the Opposition has called for a general election 35 times. It seems somewhat surprising that tonight, he is going to show support for the Government by not voting for a general election.
Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that, frankly, Members of Parliament should not pick and choose the laws that they obey, just as Members of Parliament should not pick and choose the results of referendums that they obey either?
Mr Bone
I am sure that Eric Forth was much better. He will probably be looking down, saying, “Oh my goodness, what a shower there is on both sides!” He would do this far better than me and he would wear a much better tie in the process, but alas, he is in a better place—and he will be wearing a better tie than the hon. Gentleman, that’s for sure. The really important point is that this House delegated the decision to the British people, and after three years, we have failed to do it. That is the fundamental difference between this and anything else that we normally debate.
Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
The hon. Gentleman and I obviously disagree on the Brexit issue, but he would surely accept that since that point, we have had a general election where the Government lost their majority, and the Government have further lost their majority during that time. That is part of democracy. Given that the Prime Minister found time to vote in the last Division—we all saw him scuttling off down the corridor—is the hon. Gentleman not disappointed that neither he nor the Law Officers are here to explain whether or not they will comply with the law of this land?
Mr Bone
Do I think that the Prime Minister should waste his time coming to an Standing Order No. 24 debate—a general debate—about whether he is going to obey the law of the land? Of course he is going to obey the law of the land. Nobody doubts that point. The hon. Gentleman made another important point before that, which I have completely forgotten—sorry.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
This debate is important because it is about the Prime Minister obeying the law. This is not just about the Leader of the Opposition. Is the hon. Gentleman not surprised, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) said, that the Law Officers of the Government are not here to hear the debate, given, quite astonishingly, that the Lord Chancellor—the chief Law Officer of Her Majesty’s Government—had to see the Prime Minister to seek reassurances about the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom obeying the law passed by the legislature of the United Kingdom? Does the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) not agree that that is astonishing? Frankly, the importance of this debate is reflected in the fact that the Lord Chancellor had doubts about whether the Prime Minister is going to obey the law.
Mr Bone
The hon. Gentleman might want to withdraw that remark, because I have seen no comments from the Lord Chancellor that he in any way doubts the word of the Prime Minister—on reflection, he might wish to withdraw that.
The truth is that this is a general debate that is being held for political purposes. Nobody in this House for one moment thinks that any member of the Government is not going to obey the law of the land. My only reason for speaking in this debate was to say that I do not welcome the Act. It was pushed through in an extraordinarily unconstitutional way, and I say with all sincerity to the Leader of the Opposition that if he sits on this side of the House as Prime Minister, he will regret that constitutional outrage.
Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP)
According to Pericles:
“Freedom is the sure possession of those alone who have the courage to defend it.”
Our freedoms, our rights and our democracy are today under threat—under attack from a Prime Minister threatening to ignore the rule of law, ignore the wishes of Parliament and railroad against the will of the people. Today is indeed a historic day—a dark day. It will be remembered as the day that the UK Government obstructed the people and plunged the UK into an unprecedented constitutional crisis.
Let me be absolutely clear: the Prime Minister is not, not ever, above the rule of law. He says that he would rather die in a ditch than write to seek an extension to protect our economy from falling off the cliff edge. If that is the course that he chooses, the Prime Minister must resign. Undermining democracy at every turn, the Prime Minister simply cannot be trusted. The rule book has been well and truly ripped up, and with it, democracy and decency have been shredded by a cult of Brexit fan boys in No 10—unfit to govern, unwilling to govern.
What a despicable state of affairs—that an unelected bureaucrat, the Prime Minister’s lead adviser, is sitting in No. 10 devising and directing an assault on democracy, preventing parliamentary scrutiny and transparency. Should we be surprised? These are the men behind the biggest con in modern times. The co-founders of fake news, who lied to the public during the EU referendum and removed the facts from the table, and here they are again, ducking and diving the truth, seeking to operate Government using cloak-and-dagger tactics, pretending to protect the right of the people when in reality they are crushing the rights of our citizens, strangling Parliament and gagging the voice of the people.
Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
Does my right hon. Friend agree with whoever was responsible for writing a front-page article in The Spectator in 2004 —at which time the present Prime Minister was the editor—that said
“impeachment remains part of parliamentary law, a recourse for desperate times.”?
Are these not desperate times?
Ian Blackford
Absolutely they are, and I say to the Prime Minister: be very careful. Do not obstruct the rule of law.
The Vote Leave campaign in No. 10 does not care about the rules. They did not care in 2016 and they do not care now about the law. We must stop them, because the stakes are frankly too high. The Prime Minister and his Vote Leave cronies are not above the law. The law must stop this dictatorship, and Parliament must stop this Prime Minister acting like a dictator. Even the Prime Minister’s own Ministers cannot trust him.
In her resignation letter, the right hon. Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd), said that
“I no longer believe leaving with a deal is the Government’s main objective.”
It has been confirmed in The Times today that the Prime Minister’s negotiating team has been reduced to just four members.
The truth is that the Prime Minister’s priority is not to get a deal; his priority is to rip the United Kingdom out of the EU on 31 October, no matter the consequences. With the House suspending tonight, it is essential that all papers relating to the advice on Parliament being prorogued are published, and the determination tonight must be delivered on by Wednesday evening.
We cannot allow the UK Government to destroy our democracy and operate unchecked. We need to know the truth—the public deserves to know the truth.
Ian Blackford
This is a debate about observing the law. If the hon. Gentleman wants to speak in a debate about an election, that debate is taking place later on.
Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
Government Members have said time and again that the Prime Minister and the Government will obey the law, and yet we have heard the Prime Minister talk about how he would rather die in a ditch. Does my right hon. Friend share my concern that with backroom shenanigans the Government are looking for a way to evade the law?
Ian Blackford
My hon. Friend says shenanigans; I would perhaps prefer to use some other words that I am prohibited from doing in this place. Let’s just think about a Government threatening to break the law. What signal are we sending to the citizens of the United Kingdom, when the Prime Minister of this country, the highest office in the land, is telling the people it’s okay to break the law? It is a dereliction of duty and demonstrates he is not fit for the office of Prime Minister.
If the Prime Minister wants an election, he must obey the law and take a no-deal Brexit off the table. The UK Government’s Law Officers and the Secretary of State for Justice must intervene to ensure he respects the letter and the spirit of the law and removes the threat of no deal. They have responsibilities, first and foremost to uphold the law, and if they cannot receive those assurances tonight from the Prime Minister, their positions become untenable. How can they look themselves in the mirror in the full knowledge that nobody, but nobody, is above the law, and remain in office? This sorry saga should lead to more Ministers asking a simple question: are they prepared to remain in ministerial posts in a Government prepared to break the law? That is a fundamental question.
The Government should face reality. This House has legislated to remove no deal as an option at the end of October. They must signal tonight that they will comply with that legislation. Make no mistake—once the threat of no deal is off the table, we will move for an early election. Make no mistake—we in the Scottish National party want an election, but we must first satisfy ourselves that the Government will uphold the law and deliver an extension to remain in the EU. The people should not be shut out or silenced by this Prime Minister. They must be heard, and heard on the right terms, not on the terms of the Prime Minister’s shabby and shady stunts.
John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
Of course the Government and all Members of Parliament must obey the law, but Parliament must also pass wise laws and pass them according to our traditions, practices and rules. I wish to concentrate briefly on the question of the wisdom of the law and urge those who sponsored it to think again in the national interest.
This is no normal law. A normal law applies to everyone in the country equally, there are criminal penalties for those who break the law, and we wish to see the law enforced. This is not that kind of a law. This Act of Parliament is a political instruction to our Prime Minister about how he should behave in an international negotiation. Normally, this Parliament takes the view that international negotiations are best handled in detail by the Government, and we the Parliament judge the result by either approving or disapproving of it.
I urge colleagues to think again, because two things follow from Parliament instructing the Prime Minister in the way it has sought to do over this negotiation. The first is that the EU, the counterparties to the negotiation, can see that this Parliament has deliberately undermined the position of the lead negotiator for our country. It will take note of that, and instead of giving things it will say, “There is no point in giving things.” The second thing—even worse—is that the EU will take note that our Prime Minister under this Act is to seek an extension on any terms the EU cares to dictate. How can anyone in this House say that is good law or justice or makes sense for the British people? Those of the remain persuasion, just as those of the leave persuasion, must surely see that this is not the way to treat our lead negotiator—putting our country naked into the negotiating chamber with the EU. It puts the country in a farcical and extremely weak position.
I thought that the Labour party wanted us to leave the EU. Labour Members did not like the withdrawal agreement—I have sympathy with that—but they do not like leaving without the withdrawal agreement—I have less sympathy with that—so they are looking for a third way. They presumably think they could do some other kind of renegotiation, but they have never explained to us what that renegotiation would be like, and they have never explained how the EU would even start talking about it, given that it has consistently said we either take the withdrawal agreement or just leave.
Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con)
The Opposition have taken a really bizarre position. They have said that, even if they did manage to negotiate a new deal with the EU, they would campaign against it. It is a really odd position for this nation to be in.
John Redwood
That is even more bizarre. Normally, Governments do their best negotiation and then come back and recommend it to the House of Commons. It would indeed be fatuous if we ever had a Government in this country who negotiated a deal they knew they wanted to reject. They should not waste everybody’s time and just say, “Let’s leave without a deal.”
We are wandering a little from the point of this debate, which is about the rule of law. This House of Commons should think again. This is an extremely unwise law. It undermines the Prime Minister, but, more importantly, it undermines our country. It makes it extremely unlikely that those remain-supporting MPs who could live with our exit with a variant of the withdrawal agreement will get that because they have deliberately undermined the pressure our Prime Minister may place on the EU in the negotiations he is trying to undertake. Even worse, they have invited the EU to dictate terrible terms for a few months’ extension, and why would the EU not do it? Please, Parliament, reconsider. Parliament has a duty to put through wise laws and to represent the national interest. This miserable Act is an act of great political folly and is undermining our country in a very desperate way.
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
It is astonishing that we are even having a debate about whether a Prime Minister is going to adhere to the rule of law. Let us just think about that for a minute or let it sink in. The Government have let the House of Commons be in genuine doubt about whether they will respect a law that has passed through this Chamber and the other place and received Royal Assent. We have a Prime Minister who thinks the rules do not apply to him. He is acting as though he has a majority, when he has none. His majority dissolved when the hon. Member for Bracknell (Dr Lee) joined the Liberal Democrats, and then it was made worse by his own brutal sacking of 21 Conservative colleagues, many of whom had served their party and their country with distinction and public service over decades.
The Prime Minister is on a power trip, but the truth is he does not have unfettered power, much as he would like to. There is a sense of arrogance and entitlement about this action. He acts as though rules and conventions simply do not apply to him. He will stand in front of the police—in front of public servants—and make a political speech talking with apparently no sense of irony about how he would rather die in a ditch than obey the law. This is a Prime Minister who has trampled over conventions, such as observing basic courtesies and manners, roaming the world as Foreign Secretary causing offence wherever he went.
This is a Prime Minister who has refused to stand up for the traditions of our civil servants, who give their advice to Ministers freely and frankly, who act in a neutral and independent way and who should be backed up by Ministers. Instead, he was prepared to throw Sir Kim Darroch under the bus. This is a Prime Minister who has appointed to the Cabinet the former Defence Secretary, who was sacked by the previous Prime Minister because she believed that he had leaked material from the National Security Council. This is a Prime Minister who saw fit to appoint to the heart of No. 10 a chief of staff who has been found in contempt of Parliament. This is a Prime Minister who truly thinks that rules and conventions do not apply to him.
Let me now turn to the specific law requiring the Prime Minister to request an extension of article 50 to prevent us from crashing out of the EU without a deal. The hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) said that it does not take no deal off the table, and I have some sympathy and agreement with the hon. Gentleman on that point. This law is not perfect. This law is what we arrived at, working on a cross-party basis and building consensus in Parliament, but it is not perfect. It is a good step, but it is not a guarantee. As has been said, what happens if the EU does not grant an extension? I, for one, do not put anything past our Prime Minister when it comes to what he might try to engineer.
It was suggested that an extension would be granted for a general election, and I think that that is a fair representation of what the EU has said. The EU has also said that it would grant an extension for the purpose of a people’s vote so that the specific deal could be voted on, and that remains the best way in which to resolve this issue. There is no guarantee of a resolution through a general election, but if there is a people’s vote on the specific Brexit deal, we will know whether that has majority support in our country or whether it does not.
It is important for Parliament to be sitting during the period after the European Council. The right hon. Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) said that, normally, Prime Ministers would not be told how to conduct a negotiation; they would bring back what they had negotiated to the House of Commons and seek approval for it. Actually, this law does exactly that. It asks the Prime Minister to do his job—negotiating in Brussels—and either to get a deal or, if he fails to get a deal, to come back to the House and hold a vote in Parliament to see whether there is approval for what he has achieved.
John Redwood
Is there any limit on the conditions that the EU could impose on us to get the extension that the hon. Lady would find unacceptable? Let us say that it wanted billions of pounds that we need for schools and hospitals in Britain. The hon. Lady wants us to just pay that.
Jo Swinson
That is absolute nonsense. As the right hon. Gentleman well knows, our views on Brexit differ intensely. I think that the EU, in good faith, is likely to respond positively to a request for a genuine extension, such as one for a people’s vote. Ultimately, it will be up to the House to decide, if a recommendation was made, that that should not be taken into law.
Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
Will the hon. Lady give way?
Jo Swinson
I want to make some progress.
If an extension were not granted and we were in the days running up to 31 October, there would be a choice to be made. I am very clear about the choice that I would make, and the choice that the Liberal Democrats would make. If we are on the verge of leaving the European Union without a deal, we should revoke article 50, and that is something that we have the power to do. We have unilateral power in the United Kingdom to do it, because it does not require agreement from the European Union, and that is why we must not dissolve Parliament at this time. If we do so, and we are not sitting at that point, we shall have no reason and no ability to act at that time.
It is no wonder that the Prime Minister wants to shut down Parliament for five weeks, because it is in Parliament that the Prime Minister must answer questions, it is in Parliament that he must be held to account and it is in Parliament that he is found out for having no substance behind his bluster and bravado. The fact that we are having this debate today is astonishing, and it is a sad day for our democracy, but the voice of people in Parliament will not be silenced.
Michael Tomlinson (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (Con)
It a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson). I will start my speech by agreeing with two of the points that she made, although I fundamentally disagree with her points and her stance on Brexit.
First, I agree that it is truly astonishing that we are having this debate today. It is faintly ridiculous that there should be an accusation, an allegation, that anyone on the Government Benches, let alone the Prime Minister, would fail to obey the rule of law. Secondly, I agree that the Act does not take no deal off the table. The hon. Lady was absolutely right to say that and to point to other weaknesses in the Act. She was right to be open and straightforward about a matter on which other Members have been less than straightforward.
Mrs Main
My hon. Friend is making some powerful points, and, like him, I completely agree with those points made by the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson). However, the hon. Lady also referred to a people’s vote on a deal. A deal would have to be negotiated to go to a people’s vote. There would have to be a considerable delay before that could happen if a deal was not secured.
Michael Tomlinson
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. I was going to mention the people’s vote, because that is where I fundamentally disagree with the hon. Lady. Apparently, the Liberal Democrats want a people’s vote, although we are now hearing that their position may be moving towards straightforward revocation. The irony is that they have said that if there were another vote and that vote was to leave, they would not abide by it: they would not accept it. Is that democratic? Is it democratic for the Liberal Democrats to say, “Let us have another vote, but if we do not like the result, we will not accept it”?
Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)
I am astonished by the way in which members of other parties proclaim our Liberal Democrat vision. It is simply not true that we would not abide by the result of a people’s vote if we gave them a vote on the final deal. We would give the people the final say on a deal. That is our line; there is nothing about not abiding by the result.
Michael Tomlinson
I am delighted that the hon. Lady has turned up for the debate. However, she failed to hear a previous Liberal Democrat statement that if the vote was for leave on a second occasion, they would not abide by it and would not accept it.
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
It is hardly surprising that we should take that view, since the Liberal Democrats have form for not abiding by the last referendum result.
Michael Tomlinson
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend.
There have been questions about why my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is to respond to the debate, and a ridiculous point of order was made at the beginning. My right hon. Friend is the Foreign Secretary and the first Secretary of State. He is, in effect, the Deputy Prime Minister, and it is perfectly appropriate and reasonable for him to respond to an emergency debate under Standing Order No. 24.
Michael Tomlinson
No, I will not. I am going to carry on.
The leader of the Labour party stood up and said that the Prime Minister should stick to his word, and I completely agree. It is vital for the Prime Minister to stick to his word. He said that we must leave on 31 October. There has been a breakdown of trust between politicians and the people because we have not stuck to our word.
Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Michael Tomlinson
I am going to make some progress.
We have said that we are going to leave on 31 October. It is imperative that we do so, and I will be encouraging the Prime Minister to do precisely that.
There is a sense of unreality in the Chamber. We have been having, endlessly, the same debate on Brexit for the past three years, and democrats have not accepted the democratic result of the referendum. The leader of the Labour party says that the Prime Minister should stick to his word, but I invite the leader of the Labour party to stick to his word directly in relation to this Act.
This is what the leader of the Labour party said during last week’s debate.
“I repeat what I said last night. Let this Bill pass and gain Royal Assent”—
and, Mr Speaker, you yourself have confirmed that this Bill has received Royal Assent—
“and then we will back an election”.—[Official Report, 4 September 2019; Vol. 664, c. 292.]
Those are the Leader of the Opposition’s own words, in Hansard, said from the Dispatch Box. He invites the Prime Minister to stick to his word: absolutely, and we must leave on 31 October, but the leader of the Labour party should stick to his words. He should have the courage of his convictions. He should stand up and do what Opposition leaders should be doing, rather than chickening out and bottling it and failing to vote tonight for an election.
Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)
In examining the question of the rule of law does my hon. Friend agree that it is essential to look at the wording of the Act itself? Is there not a substantial degree of uncertainty in the duties that are being imposed upon the Prime Minister, not least because of the provisions contained in the so-called Kinnock amendment, and also because it is sometimes impossible to perform a duty if the framework of the duty that is to be complied with is itself incoherent and unclear, as it is in the Bill?
Michael Tomlinson
I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. So far no one has suggested during the course of this debate that it would be proper to disobey the rule of law, and I agree entirely, but does that prevent the Government from examining precisely what the law does and does not say while still abiding by the rule of law?
Labour’s position on Brexit is entirely incoherent. The shadow Foreign Secretary says she is going to negotiate a deal but then, having negotiated the deal, she is actually going to vote against the deal that she herself has negotiated. The Labour leader has said that he wants a general election to be called as soon as the Bill is passed; the Bill is passed, and he is still running away from a general election.
There is such a sense of unreality in this Chamber. We have had these debates for three years. My constituents are saying, “Get on with it.” That is precisely what we should be doing.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
I called Mr Austin earlier and then he was disappointed, so I feel some compassion towards the hon. Gentleman. I call Mr Ian Austin.
Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Ind)
The part of the motion that I want to speak to is about politicians upholding the rule of law, and I have to say right at the outset that I think it is absolutely incredible to hear the Leader of the Opposition lecturing anybody else—[Interruption]—lecturing anybody else about observing the rule of law. [Interruption.] Labour Members have already started moaning, but they ought to listen. [Interruption.] They ought to listen; they are going to have to get used to this, because the points I am going to raise are the questions they will have to answer in an election campaign. They will have to explain to their voters and their constituents, and the people of this country, why they think someone with an appalling record like the Leader of the Opposition is fit not just—
Liz McInnes (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab)
Why don’t you go and sit somewhere else?
Ian Austin
The hon. Lady asks why I don’t go and sit somewhere else. I am sitting here—[Interruption.] I am standing here—[Interruption.]
Ian Austin
I will explain why: I am standing here because I was elected—[Interruption.] Because I think—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I do not wish to be unkind to the hon. Lady, but she is not entirely averse to making loud noises from a sedentary position, so although I appreciate her important contribution on this, I think I will make the judgment myself, if she doesn’t mind. I am deeply obliged to her.
Ian Austin
The more Labour Members interrupt, the longer it will take: I am going to make these points. The reason I have not moved is that I did not leave the Labour party to join another party; I left the Labour party to shine a spotlight on the disgrace it has become under the Leader of the Opposition’s leadership and because I regard myself as proper, decent, traditional Labour, not like the extremists who have taken over this party and are dragging it into the mud. That is the point I am going to make in this debate.
These are people—the Leader of the Opposition, the shadow Chancellor—who have spent their entire time in politics working with and defending all sorts of extremists, and in some cases terrorists and antisemites. We should remember what these people said about the IRA. It might be ancient history to the Labour party’s new young recruits, but many people will never forget how they supported terrorists responsible for horrific carnage in a brutal civil war that saw people blown up in pubs and hotels and shopping centres.
A few weeks after the IRA blew up a hotel in Brighton—murdered five people at the Tory party conference—the Leader of the Opposition invited two suspected IRA terrorists to Parliament, and when the man responsible for planting that bomb was put on trial he protested outside the court. The shadow Chancellor said that
“those people involved in the armed struggle”
—people he said had used “bombs and bullets”—
should be honoured. And they have the brass neck to lecture anybody about the rule of law; what a disgrace.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I understand that this debate is about whether the Prime Minister obeys the rule of law, not whether Members talked to people who allegedly have broken the law; it is about whether we deliver the rule of law.
Mr Speaker
I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman, and his antennae are keenly attuned to the debate. There is a fine dividing line, and the hon. Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) is dilating on the broad theme of disregard, bordering on contempt, for the law. If I think he has elided into a wholly different subject then I will always profit by the counsels of the hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies), but for now the hon. Member for Dudley North is all right—just. But I do warn him that I hope his speech tonight is, given that many others wish to contribute, not going to be as long as the speeches he used to deliver at the students union at the University of Essex 36 years ago, when we jousted together; it needs to be shorter.
Ian Austin
Well, Mr Speaker, my speeches then were a lot shorter than yours.
Mr Speaker
That may be, but what I would say to the hon. Gentleman is that, by common consent, mine were considerably better.
Ian Austin
I am not going to argue that point, Mr Speaker.
This is a debate about whether politicians can be trusted to obey the rule of law, and there is not a single Labour figure in the past—not a single one—who would have backed violent street protest, as the shadow Chancellor did when he called for “insurrection” to “bring down” the Government or praised rioters who he said had “kicked the s-h-i-t” out of the Conservative party’s offices. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton (Liz McInnes) might not want to hear it, but I will tell her this—
Ian Austin
I have explained why I am not going over there, but I will tell the hon. Lady this.
Ian Austin
I am here because voters in Dudley North sent me here to represent them, and none of my views have changed on any of the things I stand up for—decency in politics, the rule of law—and everybody in Dudley knew exactly what I thought of these people at the last election. And I will tell the hon. Lady this: I will make absolutely certain that she is going to have to answer to her voters for these points at the next election.
Ian Austin
Don’t worry about that.
No other senior figure in the Labour party’s history would have joked about lynching a female Member of Parliament. These people do not believe in the rule of law abroad, either. They always back the wrong side, whether it is the IRA, Hamas or Hezbollah, who they describe as friends. No previous Labour leader would have supported brutal totalitarian dictatorships like the ones in Cuba or Venezuela that have no regard whatsoever for the rule of law. No previous Labour leadership would have allowed a party with a proud history of fighting racial prejudice to have been poisoned by racism—which is what has happened under these people—against Jewish people to the extent that Members have been arrested on suspicion of racial hatred and the party itself has become the first in history to be investigated under equalities laws by the Equality and Human Rights Commission. These people and the people around them are a million miles away from the traditional mainstream, decent politics of the Labour party. They have poisoned what was once a great party with extremism, and they cannot be trusted with the institutions that underpin our democracy. They are completely unfit to lead the Labour party, let alone our country.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
Our fundamental values are democracy, human rights and the rule of law—those are our fundamental values across Europe—yet we now have a Prime Minister who says he would prefer to die in a ditch than to deliver a law that was developed by our democracy, the mother of all democracies, in order to protect people’s human rights and prevent no deal. We have not seen the implications of no deal, but a lot of it has leaked out. The reality is that nobody in Britain voted for no deal. People did not vote to get out, “do or die”, on 31 October. They do not want to die.
The majority voted to leave, but the people who did so in Swansea say to me that they voted for more money, more jobs and more control. Now they learn that they will not get any of those from Brexit. We see Ford leaving Bridgend, we see Airbus leaving and we see problems with Tata Steel. We see no more control and no more money. Those people who voted leave deserve a final say and a final vote. They certainly did not vote for no deal. It is a bit like people agreeing to go to the cinema to see a love story or a comedy and ending up with a chainsaw massacre. They are being told that they agreed to go to the cinema, but now it is the chainsaw massacre and they still have to go in.
This links me back to no deal. In Wales we are going to see the slaughter of millions of sheep because we will be unable to export them, given the immediate 40% tariffs that will be imposed. We also know that 1 million diabetic people in Britain will be at risk of not having enough insulin. The list goes on, yet the Prime Minister—who has failed to turn up to this debate about whether the Government will deliver the rule of law—is now known not to be negotiating. Instead, he is spending £100 million of taxpayers’ money on delivering propaganda even though he knows from Operation Sledgehammer, or whatever it is called—Operation Yellowhammer—that we face calamitous ruin.
The unfortunate truth is that the Prime Minister is spreading the contagion of nationalist populism: the basic idea that we here are better than the Europeans over there, and that if we have a problem here, it is their fault over there. We have seen it before with Donald Trump talking about the Mexicans, the wall, the Muslims and the blacks. We have seen it in Germany with the Jews. Now we have heard it here, with people talking about the Europeans. Nigel Farage’s narrative has now been taken on by the Prime Minister when he says, “Oh, they voted leave three years ago and nothing could be simpler: just leave. The reason we’re not leaving is because MPs are corrupt and parliamentary democracy is rotten.”
It is easy for everyone here to agree to leave. The difficult business is getting us all to agree where we are going to. It is no surprise that a lot of parliamentarians think the deal would have made us too close to Europe, while a lot think we would have been too far from it. We do not agree—this is not easy, and everybody here knows that—but the lie is spread around that it is the people versus Parliament, or the people versus the courts. Tonight, we are here to defend our fundamental values of parliamentary democracy and the rule of law, and it is those institutional values that are under attack on the footway to neo-fascism.
The Prime Minister wants an immediate election in the hope that the Brexit vote will unite and think that he is mad enough to vote for no deal, and that the remain vote will divide, so that he can say, “We’ll have no deal. Everything will be all right.” We know that people like Dominic Cummings, Farage and others want to undermine our fundamental democratic institutions, whether the BBC, the civil service, the universities or parliamentary democracy itself. We face a chilling time and a moment of truth as we wait to see whether the Prime Minister will in fact obey democratically agreed laws. He is willing to go around promoting the lie that no deal can be delivered without massive collateral damage. The democratic world is looking to us, as the mother of all Parliaments, to see whether we will ensure that the rule of law and democracy go forward. We must show the rest of Europe and the rest of the world that we will not bow to the language of popular tyranny, but stand true to the rule of law and democracy and move forward.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
We rightly heard earlier today several tributes recognising your role, Mr Speaker, in protecting Parliament and parliamentarians and making Parliament relevant and accessible to ordinary people, and I associate myself with those comments.
When my constituents ask me about what might happen down here tonight, they are recognising our role in making our laws. They are recognising that it is Parliament’s job to seek solutions. They are acknowledging that this where we argue, debate and pass laws, but people up and down the country have been shocked to discover the Prime Minister putting so much effort into a no-deal Brexit at the expense of seeking a solution, not least because that was never what he told us was his intention back in 2016. People do not understand how the leader of the Brexit campaign, who is now the Prime Minister, is closing down Parliament, pursuing no deal with such vigour, and encouraging media briefings to confirm that he will not abide by the latest Act of Parliament.
Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)
I associate myself with my hon. Friend’s comments in relation to Mr Speaker because, to be quite honest, people across Europe are tuning into this House and watching how both the Speaker and this Parliament have fought back against the overweening power of an Executive that have tried to close down debate and to stop the people’s voices being heard. That is a true democracy, which is why we are fighting here tonight.
Steve McCabe
I certainly agree with my hon. Friend. I fear the attempts to silence and close down this House. Can any of us really talk about the rule of law and expect our constituents to respect it when those at the top of our democratic institutions are showing such disrespect for Parliament and the law on such a crucial issue?
The Prime Minister’s behaviour is simply wrong. He is treating Parliament—the people’s Parliament—with utter contempt. The Prime Minister and those around him are using language that we normally associate with repressive, dictatorial, anti-democratic regimes around the globe. In trashing the reputation of Parliament and parliamentarians and threatening to disobey the law, the Prime Minister is calling into question his fitness for office. This man led the Brexit campaign, and he was Foreign Secretary when the negotiations commenced. He is now the Prime Minister, and he should be using every waking hour to conclude the deal on which he sold his Brexit plans. He should not be closing down Parliament and running away from his responsibilities.
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that if we do not reach a deal with the European Union while we are a member of it, we will inevitably have to reach a trade deal from outside, where we will be negotiating from a position of abject weakness and therefore will be unable to get a good deal?
Steve McCabe
I think that that is the conclusion that most rational people have come to. That seems the inevitability of where we are heading. The Prime Minister of this country should not be running from his responsibilities, and we should not even have to ask whether he will obey the law. It is unbelievable.
Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
This is about the rule of law, and we should be clear—there should be no ifs or buts about it—that, no matter how powerful and self-important they might feel, everyone should obey the law.
Patricia Gibson
Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that, during this debate, we have heard two irreconcilable positions from Conservative Members? We have heard that the Government will obey the law, but we have also heard that the Government will deliver Brexit, do or die, on 31 October. Those two things are self-evidently contradictory, and therefore the conclusion must be that there are back-door shenanigans going on to evade the law, stretching every sinew to do so.
Steve McCabe
The terrible fear is that the Prime Minister and other members of the Government are saying one thing and doing another, which is what the recent resignation of the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions seemed to reveal.
It seems straightforward. If this man and this Government carry on like this, they will be responsible for destroying the very institutions in which the rule of law and democratic politics are based. We should all be fearful of a Government who are intent on moving down that road.
Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con)
The people of this country are angry. They will not understand what this debate is all about. The people of this country voted to leave the European Union, and numerous Members on both sides of the House said during the referendum debate that the result would be honoured. We have had a general election in which the two major parties stood on a platform stating the result would be honoured, and my party voted in overwhelming numbers to trigger article 50 and for both the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017 and the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. The people of this country will not understand these shenanigans.
I was at the Moreton-in-Marsh show last weekend, and there were angry people, both Brexiteers and remainers, who said, “For goodness’ sake, our businesses are suffering and our jobs are at risk. Just sort out this EU problem. We voted to leave the European Union.”
We are debating the hypothetical situation of whether the Prime Minister might break the law. It is inconceivable that he would break the law, but this Parliament has passed a rotten law. It has asked him to seek an extension on terms that we know not what they are or might be. We could face all sorts of terms in that extension. We could be asked to pay billions of pounds extra. We have no idea, yet this Parliament has mandated the Prime Minister to accept the terms, whatever they are.
The people cannot understand why our democratic Parliament has not sorted out this problem. The longer this whole matter goes on, the more they will hold this Parliament in contempt and the more that Parliament and its Members will lose their reputation for representing this country properly.
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs and First Secretary of State (Dominic Raab)
It is a great pleasure to wind up this debate, and I pay tribute to the interesting points that have been made on both sides of the House.
This Government will always respect the rule of law. That has consistently been our clear position and, frankly, it is outrageous that it is even in doubt. Of course, how the rule of law will be respected is normally straightforward, but sometimes it can be more complex because there are conflicting laws or competing legal advice. The Government usually get their interpretation right, but there have been many judicial reviews down the years, under many different Governments of different complexions. The Government cannot and would not wish to prevent that. Indeed, judicial review is part and parcel of the rule of law.
When, on occasion, the Government have lost a case on one or more contentious grounds—this has been true under successive Governments—of course they must correct their position accordingly and expeditiously.
I am a lawyer by training, I have served twice in the Ministry of Justice and I can reassure hon. Members that I take this duty to respect the rule of law particularly seriously. At the same time, it is true to say that the country is appalled by what it is seeing in Parliament, not for the reasons given by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe), but because hon. Members voted for a referendum and promised repeatedly to respect the result, and yet now people see that the Leader of the Opposition and others have repeatedly tried to frustrate Brexit. The right hon. Gentleman has now made it clear that that is Labour party policy. The ballot paper in 2016 did not say, “Leave, if and only if Brussels agrees a deal”; it did not require us to seek permission from Brussels before departure. and it did not give the EU a veto over Brexit.
The Prime Minister and this Government have been working hard for a good deal—the Prime Minister has been at it again in Dublin today—but it must be an acceptable deal that Parliament can pass. We will continue that effort. But respecting the referendum must also mean that this House allows us to leave without a deal if Brussels leaves no other credible choice. Three years of experience, to date, demonstrates that taking that option off the table severely weakened our negotiating position in Brussels, yet last week this House voted for another delay, and in doing so it further weakened our position at a critical juncture in these negotiations, a point made powerfully and eloquently by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood).
So we are now in dangerous territory. Across the country, millions of voters are concluding that Parliament is refusing to allow Brexit to happen, because some MPs just do not like it and because some politicians think the voters got it wrong in 2016—that was the thrust of the comments made by the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford).
John Redwood
Would my right hon. Friend like to comment on the way in which the Commons swept aside the idea that support is needed for the big financial consequences of this legislation—there was no money resolution—and swept away Queen’s consent, which is normally needed when encroaching on negotiations of an international treaty?
Dominic Raab
I thank my right hon. Friend for that. Of course, all the normal checks and balances that would apply if the Government were bringing forward a piece of legislation cannot apply—almost by definition—as a result of the way this was done. It has been done swiftly, without the normal scrutiny, and as a result it is a flawed piece of legislation and rightly dubbed the surrender Bill, because of its impact on our negotiations in Brussels.
Dominic Raab
I am going to make a bit of progress, because we are coming to the close.
In her contribution, the leader of the Liberal Democrats made the case for a second referendum, but she has also said that if people voted to leave for a second time, she would just ignore the result again. I want a deal, and this Prime Minister and this Government want a deal. I believe it would be much better than no deal. But much, much worse than no deal would be to destroy confidence in the most basic democratic principle we have: that politicians respect what the people vote for. That argument was powerfully made by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Michael Tomlinson).
The country wants this mess sorted out by 31 October, but the House wants to delay again. In those circumstances, the proper way to proceed is for this House to allow the voters to decide in an election who goes over to negotiate at the European Council on 17 October—the Prime Minister or the Leader of the Opposition. That is constitutionally the correct course of action. Given the position we have arrived at, it is plain common sense. What is the right hon. Gentleman afraid of? Just last Monday, the leader of the Labour party said:
“A general election is the democratic way forward.”
This is on Labour leaflets that have been delivered just this weekend, up and down the country. Just so that we are clear on this, I will read out the direct quote, so that we get it right. The leaflets said:
“We need a General Election now”.
What happened to all that bluff and bluster between the printing of the leaflets and their delivery just two days ago? The public will draw their own conclusions if the right hon. Gentleman’s actions conflict so starkly with his words. They will draw the inescapable conclusion that he does not trust the voters and he does not believe that they would trust him.
In those circumstances, if the House will not take the necessary decision, and if the right hon. Gentleman will not do the right thing, it risks further undermining respect not only for the Labour party but for Parliament. If that is the case, the Prime Minister will go to Brussels on 17 October, but let us be clear that he will not go to negotiate a delay; he will go to negotiate our departure from the EU on 31 October with or without a deal.
I urge the House to vote today not for more deadlock and delay, but for the only course of action that will break this deadlock, restore public confidence in our democracy and allow this country to move forward.
Mr Speaker
To wind up the debate, as it is in his name, I call the right hon. Gentleman, Mr Jeremy Corbyn.
Jeremy Corbyn
It is extraordinary that the House is having to debate whether the Prime Minister will abide by a law that has just been passed by Parliament, and that the same Prime Minister, who managed to be here for the Division earlier, cannot be here to answer questions from Members, and no Law Officers are present either. All the Members who have spoken raised questions—
Lady Hermon
I am very grateful to the Leader of the Opposition, who is much more courteous than the Foreign Secretary in taking interventions in this very important debate. The Foreign Secretary described as flawed the legislation that is intended to stop the country leaving without a deal, which received Royal Assent today. May I recommend to him, and indeed to all Members of the House, Radio 4’s interview with Lord Sumption, a very distinguished former member of the Supreme Court? He said that there was not “the slightest obscurity” about the Act. I rest my case. It is not flawed.
Jeremy Corbyn
I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention; she makes her point very well. If the Foreign Secretary wishes to reply, I will happily give way.
Jeremy Corbyn
The Foreign Secretary shakes his head and does not wish to intervene.
The situation is simply this. The House has voted several times to say that a no-deal exit must be taken off the table, and it subsequently passed legislation to prevent no deal. The Government then apparently refused to accept the decision of the House, which is why this motion has been brought before us this evening. The Government’s response is to try to prorogue Parliament later this evening so that no Minister can be put under any scrutiny for more than a month, during what they themselves must accept is quite a significant point in our country’s history. The Government have now been forced to produce Operation Yellowhammer documents, as a result of a decision taken earlier by this House.
Surely the very least we deserve from the Prime Minister is a clear undertaking that a requirement that we ask for an extension until January to prevent us crashing out must be made at the appropriate time. Why can the Foreign Secretary not say that? Why can the Prime Minister not say that? All that we have left is the ability of this House to declare its view this evening, and I hope that is what we will do.
When the Government have made it clear that they will carry out the law and, if necessary, prevent a no-deal exit, we will then be very happy to debate all their policies in a general election, including ending austerity and the poverty and misery that the Government have brought to the people of this country. I look forward to that opportunity. The priority in this is that operations in hospitals will be damaged, the supply of medicines will be damaged, the supply of food will be damaged, and the supply to manufacturing will be damaged. If all this is a lot of scaremongering, why were the Government so unkeen to present Yellowhammer documents, which will show that truth to be the case? If they have nothing to hide, why are they hiding it? This House has forced them to put those documents out to the public, but, of course, the House will not be sitting. How convenient is that? I say to the Government: do not go ahead with the Prorogation of Parliament; do not go ahead with the threat of no deal. Instead, they should look after the interests of the people of this country which will not be served by our crashing out unless, of course, there is another agenda, which is to rush into the arms of Donald Trump and all the trade deals that they want to make with him.
There we have it. First of all, no Tory MPs want to speak. Now they have all turned out to have a bit of a shouting match. That is absolutely fine, I do not mind.
Jeremy Corbyn
No, I will not give way.
I simply say that the House has an opportunity tonight to express its view that the Prime Minister should obey the decision that was taken by both Houses of Parliament and that was passed into law today. I hope that Members of this House will vote accordingly, and that his Government will learn the lesson that they cannot ride roughshod over our democracy.
Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab)
claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).
Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.
Question agreed to.
Main Question put accordingly.
Resolved,
That this House has considered the welcome completion of all parliamentary stages of the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill and has considered the matter of the importance of the rule of law and Ministers’ obligation to comply with the law.
Mr Speaker
Order. There is quite a lot of noisy chuntering from a sedentary position. The hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Ms Dorries) is quite beside herself in an extraordinarily irate condition, which I feel sure will not endure for very long.
I was trying to explain to our French counterparts at the weekend the significance of the term “chuntering from a sedentary position”. They were beginning to understand it, but I would have to reinterpret it tonight as yelling from a sedentary position to which, apparently, there is no equal in the Assemblée Nationale.
I was going to call on the Minister to move the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 Section 3(2) motion, but I am underestimating the exalted status of the right hon. Gentleman who graces the Dispatch Box. The motion is indeed to be moved by no less a figure in our affairs than the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.
Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 Section 3(2)
(5 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Julian Smith)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered the Report pursuant to Sections 3(1), 3(6), 3(7), 3(8), 3(9) and 3(10) of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 - regarding Executive formation; transparency of political donations; higher education and a Derry university; presumption of non-prosecution; Troubles prosecution guidance; and abortion law review, which was laid before this House on Wednesday 4 September.
Mr Speaker, may I pay tribute to you following your statement earlier today on your tenure as Speaker of this House? Despite the odd moment of friction during my time as Government Chief Whip, I would like to add my voice to those who have underlined the strength and power of your service to both your constituents and this House, particularly the work you did to establish the new Education Centre.
On 4 September, I laid a number of reports before the House in line with my obligations under the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019. Those reports underscore the vital importance of restoring the Northern Ireland Executive. This is my first priority because, without an Executive, the people of Northern Ireland have seen the quality of their public services decline and decisions kicked into the long grass. They deserve better. Since July, I have met public servants from a range of sectors who are doing an incredible job in the absence of support from their political leaders, but they cannot take the vital decisions needed on public services or make those crucial interventions in the economy.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
I am very grateful indeed to the Secretary of State for allowing me to intervene so early. May I just say that I am extremely disappointed and annoyed that the motion to discuss the historical institutional abuse in Northern Ireland was not even moved this evening? By proroguing Parliament tonight, the Prime Minister has wilfully and deliberately deprived the victims of historical institutional abuse in Northern Ireland of a 90-minute debate, sending out a clear signal that they do not even merit a 90-minute debate. It is appalling behaviour. I ask the Secretary of State to demand that the Prime Minister comes to Northern Ireland, sits in a meeting, looks the victims of historical institutional abuse in the face, and explains to them why he is so disrespectful and discourteous of the hurt and suffering that they have had to endure.
Julian Smith
To be fair to the business managers tonight, there has been a major challenge with the number of unexpected and emergency debates, but I am now coming to the issue of HIA that the hon. Lady raises. In doing so, I apologise to the House for the change in business. It in no way diminishes how seriously I am progressing the issues or affects the commitments I have made.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
I understand what the Secretary of State has said about the business managers. However, he cannot get away that easily from the business statement that was made in this House on Thursday. The first and second priorities on that list, as handed out to Members, were to do with the victims of historical institutional abuse, as the second priority was victims’ payments in relation to that matter. The matters to which the Secretary of State intends to speak this evening were fifth and sixth on the list that we were given. Why has he—as the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) has indicated—set aside these very important issues that we were promised from that Dispatch Box would be dealt with expeditiously when we came back in September?
Mr Speaker
Let me thank the Secretary of State for his very gracious personal remarks, which mean a great deal to me.
Julian Smith
The victims of historical institutional abuse in Northern Ireland have shown incredible courage and dignity through their engagement with the Hart inquiry and throughout their campaign for redress. I know that colleagues, as has been shown in the interventions I have just taken, will join me today in restating our collective determination to see progress made in delivering redress to those victims as soon as possible.
On 23 August, I had the honour of meeting representatives from the victims’ and survivors’ groups. These people’s lives have been blighted by unforgivable, horrendous acts, yet they have continued to engage patiently and respectfully with politicians and the legislative process. We can ask no more of victims. We can ask no more of the Hart inquiry. The inquiry has been undertaken. Officials have prepared the policy. The lawyers have prepared the draft law, and I have asked that this be included in the Queen’s Speech as a matter of urgent priority.
Maria Caulfield (Lewes) (Con)
On Thursday in business questions—this is why it is disappointing that this is not being debated today—we heard that the Secretary of State committed not only that it would be in the Queen’s Speech but that the legislation would be brought forward to the end of the year. That is the most important thing—that the legislation actually comes forward.
Julian Smith
I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention.
The EF Act requires new laws in areas including same-sex marriage, opposite-sex civil partnerships, abortion, and victims’ payments. These are sensitive devolved issues, and this Government’s preference is that they are taken forward by a restored Executive. Again, I am sorry that we have not been able to discuss the important issue of victims’ payments in the motion that was not moved. Across these issues, this House has spoken, and these duties to legislate will come into effect if the Executive is not back up and running in the next few weeks. Despite the truncated debate today, I underscore my assurance to the House that I will continue to uphold the letter and the spirit of my obligations under the EF Act in full. I will update Parliament on these issues in the next Session, and indeed will say a bit more on abortion law in Northern Ireland later in my speech, but I now turn to each of the issues listed for debate today.
Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)
What can this House do to strengthen the Secretary of State’s elbow in discussion with the business managers as to what is going to be included in the Queen’s Speech? I associate myself with the remarks of other hon. Members with regard to the victims of historical abuse. May I urge him to take this message to the business managers? Many of those who suffered that horrible abuse were placed in that situation by the state. The state let them down then; the state now looks as though it is letting them down still further. That is not good enough and we will not put up with it.
Julian Smith
I am confident that the business managers will look very favourably on such a Bill for the Queen’s Speech.
Northern Ireland has been without devolved government since January 2017. In that time, we have seen hospital waiting lists get longer, public services deteriorate, and frustration in Northern Ireland grow. The issue of Brexit has made the need for a reformed Executive ever more urgent. It is clear that Northern Ireland’s interests at this time are best served by a restored Executive in place and ready to take the necessary decisions.
The then Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, my right hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley), started the latest round of cross-party talks, following on from the work of my right hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire). I pay tribute to their tireless work. I also pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May) for all that she did to drive for Stormont to be up and running during her time as Prime Minister. I am also in no doubt, from the work we have done together since he became Prime Minister, that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is personally committed to the swift conclusion of these talks.
The same issues have been discussed in cross-party talks for over two years. Some aspects of those talks are very close to resolution, and I believe the parties could agree swiftly on a programme for government, on measures to increase transparency, and on the sustainability of the institutions—although gaps do remain between the two main parties on rights, culture and identity. However, both the UK and Irish Governments share the view that, notwithstanding the importance of these issues, these topics can be resolved in short order.
Political parties across the spectrum must now realise that the lack of political leadership has left public servants bearing the load for far too long. I have seen this at first hand when speaking to the principal at Ashfield Boys High School in east Belfast and to doctors and nurses at Musgrove Park Hospital, and in my many meetings with all those who serve so bravely in the Police Service of Northern Ireland. There can be no more excuses: we simply have to get the Assembly and the Executive up and running. So the UK Government, working closely with the Irish Government in accordance with the three-stranded approach, will now intensify our efforts to put forward compromise solutions to the parties. I urge the parties to make the most of the days ahead and to work with me and the Tánaiste to do what is best for the people of Northern Ireland. Whatever the outcome of that process—whether I can update on positive or negative developments—I will publish a report on or before 9 October. If I have to report that those efforts were not successful, my next update to the House will set out the next steps to ensure adequate governance in Northern Ireland and the protection of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
The Secretary of State has just made a commitment that he will, in the next Session or whenever it may be, come forward with a report. I say gently to the Secretary of State that I am disappointed. A number of motions have been struck off, and for quite understandable reasons, but there is a massive amount to discuss. However we go forward in the next few months, I ask the Secretary of State or whoever holds that position to consider how we in this House of Commons and this Chamber can more properly give Northern Ireland the time it deserves to discuss these matters of major importance. The people of Northern Ireland need to hear that message. We should be talking about this for much longer than we are this evening.
Julian Smith
I agree with the hon. Gentleman, and I pay tribute to the work he has done during his career for the citizens of Northern Ireland, but I would say that two SO24 debates today have given the business managers a major challenge.
The issue of transparency of donations to Northern Ireland parties is one which this Government take very seriously. We are rightly proud that we were able to secure agreement of the Northern Ireland parties and bring forward legislation to open up all donations from July 2017 to full public scrutiny. I am aware that many would like to see that transparency go further and apply retrospectively to 2014. The Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2014 provides that greater transparency could be introduced from 2014 at some point in the future. However, greater transparency must be weighed against possible risks to donors. Retrospective transparency should not threaten intimidation to those who have donated.
Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)
I listened to what the Secretary of State had to say on political donations. In terms of what is in the report, he is absolutely right—that is the position—but the report misses the fundamental distinction and difference that needs to be resolved in Northern Ireland, which is that foreign donations are permissible. Northern Ireland remains the only part of the United Kingdom where foreign donations, corrupting our politics, are permissible. Will he take steps to close that?
Julian Smith
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I am aware that he and his party have strong views on this issue, and we are looking at all elements of this policy.
While many in this House have called for retrospection, we must not forget that the last time the parties in Northern Ireland were formally consulted on this, in 2017, there was only consensus for transparency going forward. The published data now available as a result of the legislation is a starting point for a review to consider what further transparency may be appropriate.
I will turn now to higher education. Northern Ireland has made great strides in higher education provision, with two world-renowned universities—Queen’s and Ulster University—attracting students from all over the globe. While the Northern Ireland Department for the Economy has policy responsibility for higher education in Northern Ireland, universities are independent of government. As such, it is for a university, whether prospective or existing, to decide where to base any new campus.
No application has been made from any organisation to establish a university whose main campus is in Derry/Londonderry. The Government are aware that Ulster University is considering the development of a graduate medical school to be located in Derry/Londonderry, and that proposal features in Derry City and Strabane District Council’s economic regeneration plans for the region. Education is key to securing a prosperous future for Northern Ireland, and it is right that we focus on where the current skills gaps lie and how they can be met.
Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
I had the great honour of visiting Derry recently. The University of Ulster has been dilly-dallying and delaying about the medical school at the Magee campus. The city needs that medical school, which will help immensely with not only its regeneration but the whole peace process. What guarantees can the Secretary of State give that Derry will get that medical school?
Julian Smith
On my last visit to Derry/Londonderry, I spoke about the medical campus, and we are working to ensure that we do everything we can in the Northern Ireland Office to support it. Again, however, we need the Executive—Stormont—back up and running to make sure the money flows to that campus.
This Government are unequivocal in our admiration of the armed forces, who served with heroism and bravery to protect the people of Northern Ireland and whose sacrifice has ensured that terrorism would never succeed. The Government will never forget the debt of gratitude we owe them. Providing better support for veterans is a major priority for this Government, and the creation of the Office for Veterans’ Affairs is an example of the strength of our commitment.
I want to be clear: I absolutely recognise the sentiment and the principle underpinning these amendments, and I recognise the strength of feeling across the House on this matter. We have been clear that the current system for dealing with the legacy of Northern Ireland’s past is not working well, and this needs to change. As the Prime Minister said recently in this House, it is
“common ground”
across all Benches that it is simply
“not right that former soldiers should face unfair”—[Official Report, 25 July 2019; Vol. 663, c. 1467]—
and repeated investigations, with no new evidence, many years after the events in question. Two very important further amendments have been submitted, and I want to address these in turn.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
I apologise for intervening so soon after entering the Chamber, but as the Secretary of State has just referred to my amendment, I will take that liberty. Will he just acknowledge one thing? When the Defence Committee recommends a qualified statute of limitations, in the absence of compelling new evidence, on the question of the pursuit of people long after the events concerned, does he accept that that is not the same as an amnesty and should not be ruled out in the same way as people do rule out an amnesty?
Julian Smith
I want to take care about prejudging the work that the Government have put in place, cross-Government. As my right hon. Friend is aware, the Prime Minister has set a new focus on this issue, and I am sure he will be inputting into that. I will be working, along with the Ministry of Defence and the Cabinet Office, to move that issue forward.
I absolutely recognise the sentiment and the principle underpinning the amendments on legacy, and I recognise the strength of feeling across this House on this matter. We have been clear that the current system for dealing with the legacy is not working well, and we will move forward in the ways I have discussed. While we want to find a better way to address these issues, to do so through the presumption of non-prosecution would pose a range of challenges and may not provide a complete solution to the issues at play.
A presumption of non-prosecution in the absence of compelling new evidence is likely to need to be applied to everyone involved in troubles-related incidents, including former terrorists. However, implementing these provisions would not remove the obligations under domestic criminal law and international obligations under the European convention on human rights for independent investigations of serious allegations. With regards to troubles prosecution guidance, hon. Members will of course be aware that criminal investigations are carried out independently of the Government. Prosecutorial decisions and the guidance that underpins them are devolved matters in Northern Ireland.
Mr Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con)
I apologise for interrupting the Secretary of State in mid-flow, and I know people want to get on. However, as someone who served over in Northern Ireland—and following the question from our right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), which he stepped around—may I repeat this back to him? Even though he is reiterating the issues about criminal prosecutions and other jurisdictions, the point still remains, as my right hon. Friend said—this is what people have been asking for—that we should not just bring somebody in on the basis of a trawl in the hope that something new will turn up. The issue is that having to have compelling evidence to pursue an individual is critical. That does not impact on any criminal activities or any effective future prosecutions, because they would face the same issue.
Julian Smith
I think my right hon. Friend, who has spoken very persuasively on this issue for many years, makes some important points, but I return to the fact that the Government are looking at all these issues in our cross-Whitehall review.
In Northern Ireland, just as in England and Wales, prosecutorial decisions are made independently of Government. The Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland is not under the superintendence of the Attorney General for Northern Ireland. The Director of Public Prosecutions has a consultative relationship with the Attorney General for Northern Ireland, but the former cannot be compelled by the latter. This feature of the relationship between these key figures is an important component of the devolution settlement in Northern Ireland, and it is not within the UK Government’s powers to direct the Attorney General for Northern Ireland or the Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland. Members will be aware that what is central in these cases is not how an individual came to have a weapon, but what they did with it, and it is for the courts, not the Government, to determine innocence and guilt.
Emma Little Pengelly (Belfast South) (DUP)
Does the Secretary of State accept that in Northern Ireland we have an abnormal situation, as all state-related deaths have been referred to the criminal justice system for examination? That does not happen elsewhere in the United Kingdom, so in those exceptional and abnormal circumstances, we need to find a solution to support those who served this country on the front line in Northern Ireland during the dark days of the troubles.
Julian Smith
I accept the hon. Lady’s point, but I return to the fact that the ways to achieve the sorts of things that she is discussing are much more complex.
The Government are committed to finding practical, sustainable and workable solutions to establish an improved system that works better for all and ensures that soldiers and former police officers who risk their lives to maintain peace and order and to keep others safe are treated fairly.
On abortion law, if an Executive is not formed by 21 October, the Government have a duty to make the necessary regulations. As I have set out, it is the Government’s preference that any questions of reform on these important, sensitive and devolved issues are considered in the right place by a restored Executive and a functioning Assembly. However, we recognise that a majority of MPs want to ensure that reform happens if we continue to see an absence of devolved government. From 22 October, the specific criminal law in Northern Ireland will fall away, and a criminal moratorium on prosecutions will come into place. I have instructed my Department, working closely with the Department of Health and Social Care and the Government Equalities Office, to develop an appropriate new legal framework that will be in operation by 31 March 2020 if that proves to be the case.
Ian Paisley
Does the Secretary of State realise that the legacy of what he has announced is complete and total legal chaos from 21 October to March next year? There will be no regulatory framework in place, and anything goes when it comes to the termination of the lives of innocent children. Is that the legacy that he wants? Is that the blood on the hands that he wants?
Julian Smith
I shall return that directness to the hon. Gentleman. If the parties get their act together, there can be a Northern Ireland solution to this issue. The challenge for the Government is that there was a free vote in the House that, under law, we need to respect.
As part of that, we have undertaken work to analyse the range of information and examples, both international and domestic, on these reform issues, because we have committed to consult carefully on this sensitive matter, and I shall update the House as soon as possible.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
Does the Secretary of State accept that while it may be for the parties in Northern Ireland to try to get the Assembly up and running again, there is every incentive on those who pushed Members of Parliament to put through this draconian abortion legislation not to get the Assembly up and running before the law comes into force? He cannot run away and hide behind the statement, “It is up to the parties in Northern Ireland,” as one party that is essential to the setting up of the Administration does not want the responsibility of giving the opportunity to the Assembly to overturn the legislation.
Julian Smith
I accept that these are highly emotive and sensitive issues. I accept that the House, having spoken, needs, wants and demands that we act. The consultation that my Department will put in place will be extremely sensitive to many of the issues that have been outlined tonight, but I return to the fact that I will do everything that I can in my power to get the Executive up and running because I strongly believe that for this issue and for many other issues that I have discussed tonight, getting Stormont up and running is the best way to address these matters.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
I am very interested in the consultation that will take place. Will the Secretary of State confirm that organisations such as the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, the Royal College of Midwives, the Royal College of General Practitioners and the Royal College of Nursing will be consulted as part of those deliberations?
Julian Smith
They will be, but again I want and hope that we can get this issue addressed within Northern Ireland and by Northern Ireland political leaders.
I welcome the opportunity to open these issues up for debate in the House. The range of issues, largely on devolved matters, demonstrates how important it is to restore the Executive. That is why I will strive, over the coming days and weeks, to encourage the political parties to go back into the Executive and to start working for the people of Northern Ireland again as soon as possible.
Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)
I would like to begin by making the very obvious point to the Secretary of State that had he been consulted on the question of Prorogation, and had his advice, if he had been asked for advice, been accepted—that Prorogation was inappropriate precisely because of the volume of work on Northern Ireland that needs to be done in this House—then we would have made more time and space for debates on Northern Ireland across all the issues that the House will not be able to debate tonight. This is an important issue. In the end, he has been let down by others in his Government. I need to emphasise that point, because it will come up time and again.
The hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) is absolutely right to make the point that we should have had a debate tonight on historical institutional abuse. The Secretary of State is also right. He has met victims of that abuse. He knows not only how strongly they feel, but how many of their lives were changed because of what happened to them all those years ago. This House and this society of ours owe them an obligation. The Secretary of State made it clear that he will push for early inclusion in a Queen’s Speech. However, we need a guarantee not only of that but of early movement by the Government—any Government—on this issue. That also applies to the issue of victims’ pensions—we need to see early action.
Like the Secretary of State, I need to race through a number of issues, and some I will have to leave for another day. On abortion, the Secretary of State is right. I say to Democratic Unionist party Members and, through the media, those who are unhappy with the present situation, that they have some capacity for resolution in their hands. If we can see Stormont up and running—if we can see an Executive and an Assembly up and running—then of course that is the remedy to people’s concerns about this legislation. It is important that people take that point away and do not simply shuffle off with the usual finger-pointing, saying “It’s them over there that are doing it”. People in this House have to take their responsibilities seriously as well.
Sammy Wilson
Rather than the hon. Gentleman throwing out what he knows is a non-solution, given that Sinn Féin have been driving the pro-abortion agenda in Northern Ireland that has been taken up by Members of his own party, what has he done to try to persuade his friends in Sinn Féin to get back into the Assembly? He knows that as long as they remain in a position where they veto the formation of an Assembly, the solution that he says is in the hands of the people of Northern Ireland is not a solution at all.
Tony Lloyd
I would say to the right hon. Gentleman that the members of his own party who are taking part in the negotiations have a duty on them. Yes, of course, that duty extends to representatives of Sinn Féin. I want all parties to get around the table. I will come on to that a bit later on, but he cannot avoid the responsibility that members of his own party have in getting Stormont up and running. For nearly three years, we have had the absence of Stormont—three years of people making excuses about the fault lying elsewhere—and it is now time that people accepted responsibility for their actions.
I have to ask the Secretary of State, or perhaps the Minister who responds to the debate, about abortion. The House has committed to offering safe and legal abortions to women in Northern Ireland. There needs to be confidence in the law, those we expect to operate it and the way that it works. The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), who has campaigned tirelessly on this issue, is important. Consultation is fundamental to all this, but again, Prorogation has dealt the Secretary of State a very difficult hand, because the House will return on 14 October, and on 22 October the legislation will come into effect. That means that the capacity for the House to make decisions to fill the legal gap that will exist between 21 October and 31 March is real. The consultation needs to take place now, and the House has to be ready to implement legislative change as soon as we are back, in the middle of October.
On veterans, the Secretary of State made some very important points—I know that he comes under pressure on this. If the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith) is saying that we as a House are very clear that illegality by members of the armed forces, like any other member of society, like members of the IRA and like members of loyalist terror groups, will have the same outcome—that the law will be applied—that is really helpful, because we are then talking about how we move forward in a way that allows independence of investigation and of prosecution, which the Secretary of State referred to. In the end, it is important that the Stormont House bodies, which were agreed to by all parties in Northern Ireland, are allowed to operate, because victims who saw their loved ones killed and who were themselves victims of terror have rights in this, including the right to know that there is a proper investigation, whoever and whatever was the cause of their victimhood.
Mr Duncan Smith
I did not intend to intervene on the hon. Gentleman, but as he raised that point, I will. The point that I, and I think many of my colleagues, are making is that those who have served and have left—some are in their seventies, and so on—face this unedifying process of suddenly being hauled back, not because there is compelling evidence, but in the hope that people may find something that was not available to them at the time. That is surely the key issue— a lack of natural justice—and it has to be stamped on.
Tony Lloyd
I understand what the right hon. Gentleman said. I simply say that it is a shame that proper investigation did not take place at the time. He will agree, as a former soldier, that he would not have countenanced illegality by those he worked with. Every decent soldier I know of would agree with that premise—that illegality was not what our armed forces were sent to undertake in Northern Ireland. I hear what he says; I am not sure that we are a long way apart on this issue.
Turning to the issue underlying all this, it is three years since the Stormont Assembly and the Stormont Executive were last working. We have seen the impact in areas as wide as health, education and the way in which the interface takes place—I know that the Secretary of State was agitated about the lack of powers that he had with respect to Harland and Wolff over the summer months, for example. We need to see change take place and Stormont back together. I pay tribute to his predecessor, the right hon. Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley), and him for the close working relationship that they have developed with the Tánaiste, Simon Coveney. It is important that there is a close working relationship between Dublin and London.
The single biggest threat to the United Kingdom at the moment is a no-deal Brexit, and the part of the United Kingdom facing the biggest threat is Northern Ireland, where the impact of a no-deal Brexit would be devastating, in a way that would go beyond the impact on my constituents and those of other Members in England, Scotland and Wales. The impact in Northern Ireland would not be simply economic, although the economic impact would be enormous. There would be an enormous impact on agriculture, on manufacturing, on services, and not simply on the social mores that have developed over the last 20 years, since the Good Friday agreement. There would be an enormous impact on the capacity to cross the border easily, and so on, and not simply on identity, which the Secretary of State referred to, though of course that is a fundamental issue.
The Good Friday and St Andrews agreements were milestones in establishing peace and a very different climate in Northern Ireland. It is important that nothing be allowed to jeopardise that, and a hard border, which there would be with no deal, would jeopardise it. We have seen in the Yellowhammer papers that people are concerned that we are drifting towards a no-deal Brexit. I note today the words of the Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, making it clear that Ireland is not prepared to accept a promise in place of legal guarantees. The Taoiseach speaks for many on the Opposition Benches.
We have an odd situation. Parliament does not trust the Prime Minister, the Irish Government do not trust the Prime Minister, and the right hon. Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) does not trust the Prime Minister on this issue. In that context, I say this to the Government: we are facing Prorogation and a period when our Parliament cannot act. The Secretary of State himself made it clear how important it was
“in the run-up either to a deal or no deal, that the very tricky decisions can be made, and I am sure that those will have to be made at pace.”—[Official Report, 5 September 2019; Vol. 664, c. 364.]
Of course, he is absolutely right. We will have to make decisions very quickly, and Prorogation makes that more difficult.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)
The shadow Secretary of State talks about the threat to the Good Friday agreement. Can I suggest to him that right now the biggest threat to that agreement and to the peace process is the fact that none of the political institutions in Northern Ireland are operating, and that the North South Ministerial Council is not operating and has not been operating for two years and nine months? Those who brought the institutions crashing down present the greater threat to the political institutions in Northern Ireland. It is all very well saying that we do not trust the Prime Minister. With all due respect, trust has broken down in Northern Ireland not because of the actions of any UK Prime Minister, but because one political party decided to take the ball and walk off the pitch, and will not get back on until it gets its way. That is where the threat comes from.
Tony Lloyd
I have some difficult news for the right hon. Gentleman. The disillusionment in democratic institutions stretches across all communities in Northern Ireland, including in his constituency. I talk to those people. Those who want to see Stormont working are desperately worried that the politicians—all politicians from all backgrounds—are not making the necessary progress.
I will conclude, because other Members want to speak. I want to finish by putting some specific points to the Minister. Prorogation has made it difficult for this House to make the decisions it will have to make. We will come back here on 14 October, and between then and 31 October, if we have no deal, we will have 11 sitting days. Some of those will be taken up by the Queen’s Speech. The Secretary of State rightly promised the House regular updates. The first will take place before the House returns. We need those updates to be meaningful to reassure not simply this House but the people of Northern Ireland that there is a plan and a strategy to move this forward. We need to know—the Opposition will co-operate with the Government on this—that there is the capacity to make the legal decisions that will be necessary to move the situation forward, but they have to be the right decisions and there has to be dialogue across the Chamber and an exchange of information.
There also has to be—this is really important—a maintenance of the dialogue between Dublin and London, so that when we take action here we know there will be support from the Government in Dublin so that people from all communities can be reassured that a concerted effort is being made to bring this situation to an end.
Julian Smith
I thank the hon. Gentleman for the remarks that he has just made, which I think were very responsible. I hope not to have to come back to discuss these matters with him, but I want to put on record my thanks for his comments.
Tony Lloyd
I am grateful to the Secretary of State, because I am confident that he meant what he has said. I hope that, between us, we can see a move away from a no-deal Brexit, but in the event that that does not happen, we must ensure that we work together to avoid a catastrophe that would be disastrous not only for the economy but for the people and the future of Northern Ireland.
Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)
It was William Gladstone who, in his diary, noted one day that he had “felled a lime” and pacified Ireland.
I think that to many in this place, and indeed in the country, the delivery of the Good Friday agreement was “job done”: devolution had been delivered, and Northern Ireland could be allowed to get on with her own affairs. That is a very lazy attitude, and it worries me. Many Members were present last Thursday when the Secretary of State responded to the urgent question from the hon. Member for Rochdale (Tony Lloyd). The Secretary of State will have heard the concerns that were expressed, and he has heard the concerns expressed today about the dropping, or the non-moving, of motions that were on the Order Paper on the grounds of shortage of time. It is the Treasury Bench that has curtailed the timetable through Prorogation, and I will return to that in a moment, but there is, I think, a growing sense, in the House and elsewhere, that No.10—not the ministerial team—seems to care little, and understand less, about Northern Ireland.
Maria Caulfield
I think that that is a very harsh comment. I think that we are all working collectively, across parties, to try to support the people of Northern Ireland while they do not have an Executive.
Simon Hoare
My hon. Friend says that it is a harsh comment. She may have read reports in the newspapers today of a senior adviser at No. 10 effectively saying that as far as he is concerned Northern Ireland can fall into the—Members can insert the expletive—sea. That seems to me to suggest a rather lackadaisical approach to these affairs. If we were taking them seriously—and I only wish that my hon. Friend and fellow member of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee were right—we would have taken far more time over them.
My hon. Friend knows, probably even better than I do, about the increasing complaints, in the Committee and elsewhere, about the ad hoc and emergency nature of legislation governing Northern Ireland. We know from reliable reports of the growing problems in the delivery of healthcare in Northern Ireland, the problems in education, and the need for urgent attention in the sphere of welfare. We are caught in the trap of no Assembly and the ability of civil servants, on an ad hoc basis, to deliver funds only in the context of pre-agreed political policies.
That is not serving the people of Northern Ireland—and that is before we face leaving the European Union without a deal. I do not comment on the merits or demerits of leaving without a deal, but civil servants will not be able to mitigate or address any pressing social or economic concerns that arise in Northern Ireland in the absence of the Assembly.
We are all very keen to see Stormont back up and running, but while Westminster continues to deliver on the socially progressive policies that Sinn Féin wishes to see, why on earth would Sinn Féin wish to see Stormont restored? It gets two goes for its money because it gets the policies it wants and is able to blame Westminster for effectively declaring direct rule by the back door. That is not a way to deal with fellow citizens, who I, as a Conservative and Unionist, believe to be ranked pari passu with me and my constituents.
Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his passionate speech. Does he agree that, with the lack of a Government in Stormont, families in Northern Ireland are being disadvantaged because the children’s funeral fund is not available in Northern Ireland, despite the best efforts of local authorities? Parents in Northern Ireland still have to suffer the dreadful burden of covering the costs of their children’s funerals, unlike those in the rest of the United Kingdom?
Simon Hoare
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her intervention and pay tribute to the enormous amount of work she did on that important issue; she knows that she had my support in that endeavour. She points to another example of where, if we are to believe that “Conservative and Unionist”—Unionist is the key bit—is more than just a word on a badge or on the ballot paper we need to step up to the plate to demonstrate that we are serious. She draws proper attention to another issue where ordinary families in Northern Ireland are not able to rely on the support and the interventions of the state that others have. We have an active devolution settlement in Scotland and in Wales and the Westminster Parliament here; it is only Northern Ireland that, apart from a little bit of ad hoc direct rule, is subject to civil service managerial governance, because there is no political impetus.
I say very clearly to the two main protagonist parties, which have the fate of devolution for Northern Ireland in their hands, that if they do not step up to the plate pretty damn soon other parties will point to them and say, “You’ve tried them, they have failed, you now have to give us a chance.”
Emma Little Pengelly
If the hon. Gentleman has a discussion with his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, his right hon. Friend will inform him that the Democratic Unionist party has put suggestion after suggestion on the table. I personally have put forward a number of suggestions. Sinn Féin remains adamant that it is not going back into government despite many genuine attempts by my party to get back in and deliver for the people of Northern Ireland.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We have a lot of things to do and a lot of Members want to speak. We also have a maiden speech that I want to get in, because if we do not do it tonight it will be lost.
Simon Hoare
I hear what the hon. Member for Belfast South (Emma Little Pengelly) says, and I have much agreement with her, but at some point the patience of the population is going to run out about the “He said, she said, I will, he won’t” and so on. Somebody is going to have to knock heads together or make some progress, and I have every faith in my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and the Ministers, my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd), to drive that forward—with the goodwill of the main parties, knowing full well that they are now in the last-chance saloon.
Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Simon Hoare
I will not give way as I want to finish; I have already taken too much time.
We have to find time—I urge those on the Front Bench to listen to this—to make sure that we legislate properly with full scrutiny for our fellow citizens of Northern Ireland: no more ad hoc, no more emergency legislation. If Northern Ireland is a normal part of the United Kingdom, just as my constituency is, it is about time we started treating it in that way, and I have confidence that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will do just that.
Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)
First, may I welcome the new Secretary of State to his place, as I forgot to do so the other day? I greatly welcome him to his place; he has a tough job ahead of him.
May I also say that our thoughts tonight are very much with the police and the community in Derry facing petrol bombs? There have been appalling scenes, which nobody in the community or in this House wants to see.
We welcome the publication of this report, the central conclusion of which states:
“The UK Government, working closely with the Irish Government, will now intensify its efforts to put forward compromise solutions to the parties. If that does not succeed, then the Secretary of State’s next update to the House will set out next steps to ensure adequate governance in Northern Ireland and the protection of the Belfast or Good Friday Agreement.”
It states that the Government will now intensify their efforts, but there should be no opportunity to intensify those efforts. The Government should be acting at full capacity and beyond to ensure Stormont’s restoration. A return to direct rule would seriously undermine years of progress and successive political agreements, and the threat of direct rule risks undermining the talks on restoring the devolved Assembly. The reckless Brexit position taken by this Government is now the central instability preventing the return of power sharing. Only a restored Government in Stormont will be capable of delivering on the priorities and needs of the people of Northern Ireland.
Gavin Newlands
I am sorry, but I will not give way, because Mr Deputy Speaker has already made it clear that a number of speakers are waiting to speak—we have not heard from the Democratic Unionist party yet—and we have only about half an hour left for the debate. So, apologies, but I will not be taking interventions.
It was revealed last week that the Prime Minister did not even consult the new Secretary of State before his decision to prorogue Parliament. That decision will have significant consequences for implementing the Northern Ireland budget, which is key to delivering essential public services. The new Secretary of State has also strongly indicated that, in the continued absence of a Government at Stormont and with Brexit requiring significant Executive direction, a return to some form of direct rule will be required. This expectation was confirmed by the right hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr Lidington), who has advocated the return of some form of direct rule in the context of a no-deal Brexit.
This year marks 50 years since the beginning of the troubles, and it would be reckless beyond belief to undermine that progress with a return of direct control and decisions on Northern Ireland being taken in Westminster. This is particularly true given the current absence of any Irish nationalist voice in this Chamber. A return to direct rule would also undermine previous political and peace agreements made between the two Governments and the political parties. As part of the St Andrews agreement, which paved the way to restoring devolved government in 2007, it was agreed that the Northern Ireland Act 2000, which returned direct rule, would be repealed. Therefore, to suspend devolution and impose direct rule again will require new primary legislation. It is clear that, to protect the delicate balance of relationships that exists in Northern Ireland, the UK Government must fully consult and agree a joint strategy with the Irish Government before taking any steps that would further undermine stability. As joint guarantors of the peace agreements since the Good Friday agreement in 1998, this is their joint responsibility, and unilateral approaches must not be initiated.
On Brexit, the progress report fails even to mention the impact that Brexit has had on efforts to restore Stormont, yet it is blindingly obvious that the threat of Brexit and the disruption it has caused and will cause to the carefully crafted equilibrium in Northern Ireland is undermining efforts to restore a Government. That has been exacerbated by this Government’s pursuit of a devastating no-deal Brexit, as was confirmed only yesterday by the former Work and Pensions Secretary. Already, we are seeing that impact. The Northern Ireland economy
“has entered or is entering recession”,
according to a survey by Ulster Bank. It suggests that Brexit-related uncertainty underpinned the fall in private sector output in August and that this is just a taste of things to come.
A leaked document from the Department of Health has outlined the potentially devastating consequences of a no-deal Brexit on the NHS in Northern Ireland. Among the issues included in the list of “reasonable worst case” scenarios are shortages of vaccines and medication, including some cancer therapies; difficulties running the children’s heart surgery service; and more than 1,000 NHS employees being unable to get to work or quitting their jobs.
The Taoiseach revealed last week that checks would be required close to the border if a no-deal Brexit were to happen. Both the European Union and the American Congress have indicated that such a development would undermine the peace process, which they were major players in bringing about and supporting since the early ’90s. A leaked analysis and summary produced by the alternative arrangements groups established to figure out a replacement for the backstop protocol confirmed that at present there is no deliverable alternative available. Furthermore, the Taoiseach discussed the issue of a Northern Ireland-only backstop with the Prime Minister at their meeting this morning. If a differentiated deal can be reached that enables Northern Ireland in effect to remain in the single market and customs union, the same deal must be available for Scotland.
The Taoiseach did not miss and hit the wall in his exchange with the Prime Minister today. Most cutting was his promise to be the UK’s friend—its Athena—as it faced the Herculean challenge ahead. It is unclear whether the Prime Minister actually understood the reference that the Taoiseach was making, but it is clear that the lack of government and political direction is inevitably deepening the crisis in Northern Ireland’s public service budgets and their capacity to deliver for the people of Northern Ireland. New Institute for Fiscal Studies analysis shows that, amid a worsening crisis in education, Northern Ireland has seen an 11% real-terms cut per pupil in school spending since 2009, and the latest hospital waiting times reveal that 300,000 people in Northern Ireland are waiting for a first appointment with a consultant.
Only a functioning devolved Government are capable of tackling such crises. They cannot be left to a dysfunctional and uninterested UK Government. That prospect should and must give a renewed impetus to the parties involved in the talks to come to a compromise that rewards all the communities in Northern Ireland through the return of a local Government. Previous talks have overcome divisions much greater than the issues currently blocking progress, so coming to a quick and sustainable agreement in the time ahead must not be viewed as impossible.
Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con)
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is absolutely right that the best way to deal with the vast majority of the issues in these reports is through a re-established Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly. He is also right that many of the provisions were not penned by this Government, so it is difficult to respond to them all in the way that the Members who tabled them might want. However, there is a particular urgency around dealing with the issues regarding access to abortion. I gently remind the Secretary of State of the report published by my Women and Equalities Committee in April, which made wide-ranging recommendations after having spoken to many people on the ground in Northern Ireland, many political parties and many organisations. Opposition Members are absolutely right to say that there is a huge cross-section of views on the issue in Northern Ireland, which is why it would be better for them to be dealt with locally.
I will make two short points. First, the chief medical officer for Northern Ireland told my Committee directly and in public that doctors are not currently able to fulfil their duty of care to patients in Northern Ireland in cases of fatal foetal abnormality. Not all abortions are connected with fatal foetal abnormality, but we are expecting women in some situations to continue pregnancies when they know that their babies are going to die. I would not want that for any member of my family, for any of my constituents, or for any other resident in the United Kingdom, so that has to change. It cannot be acceptable to the UK Government that a chief medical officer is saying that doctors are unable to fulfil their duty of care. The law has to change, even if just for this particular issue, and, in line with the amendment from the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) at previous stages of this Bill, a broader amendment would be preferable.
Secondly, this is not just about the legal framework. Abortion has been readily available in Northern Ireland for just a handful of people in recent years, so there has been a significant loss of professional expertise and services on the ground. If the law is to be changed in March next year, as is currently outlined in statute, significant work must be done at all levels of the health service in Northern Ireland to ensure that it can deliver on what will be a coherent law at that stage. I know my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State would not allow anything else to happen.
Finally, how will the Secretary of State ensure scrutiny of those who will be developing the services necessary to implement the law as it will stand in March of next year or as it will stand when a Northern Ireland Executive come into place? Of course, if an Executive are in place, the Assembly can scrutinise matters, but if one is not, will my right hon. Friend please think carefully about how to ensure that things work properly? Perhaps the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee here in Westminster could do that scrutiny, or perhaps he could set up a panel of interested parties, but that is not something that he can leave hanging.
Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
I will be brief because I know many Members want to get in, although there are many things I could say. I agree with what has been said about the curtailing of this debate. Some of these issues are extremely important, but nothing is more important than the victims of violence and historical institutional abuse in Northern Ireland. It is madness that we have ended up in a situation where other matters are being debated and these are not. It is just wrong, and the Government should look to themselves for how this has come about. People have talked about putting responsibility on to others, and it is easy to blame the Standing Order No. 24 debates, but the Government had choices to make and, unfortunately, these are the choices they made.
A volume of work needs to be done to address these issues in Northern Ireland, and powers need to be taken. People have complained about the impact of Prorogation. Quite frankly, this House has had months, if not nearly three years, to take responsibility and do something about some of these issues.
Democratic Unionist Members have been raising the need for decisions to be made across a range of issues in Northern Ireland, and, as the Secretary of State knows from his previous job, we have constantly pressed for decisions to be made on health, education, infrastructure, housing, investment and the other crucial issues we are debating tonight. We have constantly asked for this House and its Members to take responsibility and treat the people of Northern Ireland properly in the absence of devolved government.
It was a deliberate part of both Government and Opposition policy that the decision was taken—these are important matters to people in Northern Ireland—not to take any powers and not to make the necessary moves. People talk about who should take responsibility, but it is a bit late now, in the teeth of Prorogation, to complain about lack of time. People had plenty of time before now to do something about these matters, but they decided not to.
In time, when we come to the issue of necessary powers being taken in the event of the Assembly not being restored, I make it very clear to the Secretary of State—he knows this—that the institutions in Northern Ireland and the operation of devolved government are a strand 1 issue for Her Majesty’s Government and the parties in Northern Ireland, and we fully expect that the three-strand approach will be respected.
When the shadow Secretary of State talks about dialogue between the Government, the parties and Dublin, let us be very clear that, on the issue of the powers here if the Assembly is not restored, this is a matter under strand 1 for the Government and the parties in Northern Ireland exclusively. Strands 2 and 3 are different, but strand 1 is very clear. That was agreed and has been the case for the past number of decades.
Of course we want to get Stormont up and running, and we are fully committed to it. As the Secretary of State noted, Arlene Foster proposed more than 18 months ago to get the Assembly up and running to deal with these important matters, without prejudice to the issues that Sinn Féin elevated after agreeing a programme for government that did not include some of the issues that now prevent the restoration of Stormont. She offered to restore the Assembly on a time-limited basis to deal with some of these pressing issues, and it was rejected by Sinn Féin almost within half an hour. It was not even given proper consideration.
We want the Assembly to be restored but, as some of my hon. and right hon. Friends have pointed out, the incentives for getting it done have been completely switched. People on the Sinn Féin side are very content to sit back and wait until the deadline runs out, because that will achieve some of their objectives.
Some people in this House, when it comes to Brexit and Northern Ireland, simply do not know how to negotiate. They actually hand over the incentive for the other side to sit tight, and then they complain about the consequences to the Members who actually take their seats here. The fact that Sinn Féin are not here tonight is a demonstration of one of the problems we face in Northern Ireland. They boycott this place, they boycott the Executive and they boycott the Assembly, and then we are told it is all the fault of one party or the other parties, and all the rest of it.
We will continue to work with the Secretary of State in the coming days and weeks—he knows this—to try to get the Assembly up and running but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast South (Emma Little Pengelly) indicated, we have made proposal after proposal, and they have been rejected. We will continue to work at it, however, because we know the importance of restoring the Assembly and the Executive, especially in the run-up to Brexit. Again, we will continue to work with Her Majesty’s Government on that issue, to achieve a deal—to achieve an outcome where people can be satisfied that the objective of leaving the European Union in a sensible way that works for the whole of the United Kingdom is achieved, and so we do not undermine the economic integrity or constitutional position of Northern Ireland.
People talk about respect for the Belfast agreement, but that works two ways. Not only does it work in terms of a north-south border, but we must not implement an east-west border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. I am very glad that the Government have recognised, as reflected in a letter to Donald Tusk that the Prime Minister sent in August, that not only is the backstop anti-democratic, in the sense that laws will be made for Northern Ireland over which Stormont, even if restored, would have no say, and no one here would have any say—Northern Ireland would be obliged to accept whatever was handed down in law by the European Commission or the European Council through appropriate procedure—but it is contrary to the basis of the Belfast agreement. That basis is the consent of both communities that while we respect the institutions north-south, we cannot undermine the position that Unionists adhere to, which is that we have a single market within the United Kingdom where most of our trade is done. We simply ask for a fair and balanced deal.
I wish to bring my remarks to a close earlier than I otherwise might have, because of the shortage of time. However, I want to say something to the Secretary of State. He is aware of the demonstrations and the silent, dignified marches and walks that took place in Belfast on Friday and Saturday, when tens of thousands of people turned out on the streets to demonstrate their concern about the way in which this House has undermined the devolution settlement when it comes to abortion by having this imposed without any proper consultation whatsoever. They remain concerned about how the consultation may be carried out and they simply want their rights to be respected.
In closing, may I urge the Secretary of State to continue to work with us, the Belfast MPs, particularly on the future of the Harland and Wolff shipyard in Belfast. He has talked about the lack of powers in Northern Ireland, but there are powers at a UK level that can be used to ensure the future of this great historic shipyard and the fantastic workers there. I pay tribute to the work that has been done by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) in that regard.
Finally, I wish to talk about the Northern Ireland Hospice, in my own constituency, which is an excellent and fantastic institution that we in the Democratic Unionist party and in Northern Ireland were happy to ensure was able to be rebuilt, through the Northern Ireland Executive, with £2.1 million given to that, as well as another cocktail of funding. We want to see that rescued from its current predicament, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer mentioned it in this speech. We want to see the Secretary of State work with us; perhaps he would meet me to discuss what can be done to take that forward. However rushed and short this debate tonight, I hope he will take on board the strength of feeling that exists on these Benches on these issues.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
Ministers will understand that I am disappointed that we have been unable to discuss the reports on human trafficking and gambling this evening, given that they were reviewed as a result of amendments that I tabled to the original Bill. I would therefore appreciate an assurance from Ministers that these things will be debated in this House at the earliest possible date.
Turning to the abortion law review, I was surprised at its brevity, given that it represents a seismic change to the law in Northern Ireland, one that, as we have heard, led to tens of thousands of people marching on Stormont and in central Belfast in recent days. It is my fervent hope that any change to the law on abortion, a sensitive devolved issue, as the Secretary of State has said, could be taken forward by a restored Northern Ireland Executive. However, if that does not happen, and we have to be realistic about this, and an Executive are not reformed by 21 October, the people of Northern Ireland will find themselves in a situation where the provision of abortion, from conception up until the point of viability, which could be as far as 28 weeks, will take place in a complete legal vacuum from 22 October, with no guarantee that anything will be put in place until 31 March 2020. That is unacceptable. It means five months when there will, in effect, be no law regulating abortion at all in Northern Ireland—as I say, these are abortions taking place from conception until just before a baby is capable of being born alive. I said that we should not rush through this legislation when it was originally debated and now we see the results.
This country has all manner of statutory checks to protect women, including the need for clinics to be vetted and registered, none of which will exist in Northern Ireland. How is that good for the health of women in Northern Ireland? I have heard it suggested that the bodies of the relevant health professions will self-police in the interim, but that is simply unacceptable.
I believe that this House has failed the people of Northern Ireland in this Act. The Bill was rushed through, in dereliction of our duty to review legislation. We spent only 17 minutes debating the actual text of clause 9 when it returned from the Lords, which places on Northern Ireland a more permissive abortion regime than obtains in this country. It is unacceptable that there should be a five-month period during which abortions can take place in a legal vacuum, which is something I suspect most hon. Members were completely unaware of until tonight. I believe it is absurd to remove a law five months before we are required to put a new law in its place.
Jim Shannon
Does the hon. Lady share my view that if we had had the Abortion Act 1967 in Northern Ireland, 100,000 children would not be alive today? What we have in Northern Ireland is the acceptable thing to have, and the people of Northern Ireland are saying that they do not want to see that change—some 60% say that they want no change whatsoever.
Fiona Bruce
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention.
I have a few questions for the Minister. First, could he give more detail on the five bullet points on page 25 of the review, which give inadequate information on some really key issues, such as the scoping of how best to deliver the regulations? One line on that is insufficient, given that we are only 40 days away from 22 October, and on a matter of such gravity.
Secondly, given the uncertainty over the new framework, how is the health and safety of women in Northern Ireland going to be protected during the five-month period? Thirdly, will the lack of regulation from 22 October mean that Northern Ireland is not compliant with the Istanbul convention’s requirement for an offence of forced abortion? This is serious. The whole point made by those in the Opposition who brought this measure forward was that there were human rights concerns. This is a human rights concern.
Fourthly, can the Minister confirm whether, as a matter of law during this interim period—I do not say that it is likely—it might be possible for abortions to take place up to 28 weeks in Northern Ireland? Fifthly, although the report mentions clarity for the medical professions, can he say how the Government will engage with them? Finally, will he be seeking advice from the Attorney General of Northern Ireland, as he will be from the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission?
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We will now hear a maiden speech. I remind Members that no interventions are allowed.
Lisa Forbes (Peterborough) (Lab)
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to deliver my maiden speech. Today’s debate on Northern Ireland is an appropriate one, reminding us how important our democracy is and our role as Members in defending the rights of our citizens.
Hon. Members will know the circumstances of my election, but I want to place on the record that my predecessor, Fiona Onasanya, made a great difference to the lives of many of my constituents through her hard work.
Just as my predecessor was a black woman when there are too few here, I know that my working-class background is all too unusual too. In researching for this speech, I found that since 1918 Peterborough has had six Conservative MPs. Between them they had five peerages and three knighthoods: there were three barons, two baronets, a marquess, a viscount, an earl and a Knight Commander of the Order of St Michael and St George—like our football team, they could simply be known as The Posh. One of my predecessors also achieved an Olympic gold medal, inspiring a famous scene from the film “Chariots of Fire”. I suspect that my chances of achieving that are about as good as my chances of receiving any of those other titles. I do hope that anyone growing up in Peterborough today can look at me and my predecessor and know that, whatever their gender or class, race or religion, they deserve the opportunity to succeed, because we are a diverse city and our representation should be so, too. That word is important to me; it is our duty to represent and to understand the lives of our constituents and to change them for the better. That is politics at its best.
It was back in 1790 that Parliament legislated for an Improvement Commission for Peterborough, responsible for paving, cleaning and lighting the streets. Now we are centuries on, yet, after a decade of austerity, we face similar challenges. Research from the Library shows that, in the decades since 2010, our city has lost more than a third of its Government funding. Austerity has gone further and faster than ever before. Even the Thatcher Governments never dared to cut the police, yet now residents tell me of cases where crimes are not investigated, so short of numbers are the local police.
As a Member of this House, it is my job to make the law, but what use are those laws if they are not enforced? I campaigned on local issues, but these are national issues too. How can any of us rest easy knowing that there are families without homes, children without food and services without proper funding? Even working people are forced to use food banks or survive on zero-hours contracts. I represented working people as a trade unionist, and I intend to do so again here, because, despite the damage that austerity has done, Peterborough remains a city that I am proud to represent.
We have a rich history: a Norman cathedral with the finest medieval painted ceiling in Europe. Part of our international links go back to the Romans, who settled the Nene Valley in the first century, to the Saxons who settled Meadow Homestead, to the monks who built the abbey and to the Danes who arrived to plunder it and later settled themselves. Over centuries, we have made and traded products from bricks to wool, built a cathedral and buried Mary Queen of Scots and Catherine of Aragon. We then became a new town with new industries.
I worked in a travel agency—another trade that gave the city many of its jobs. Now we have a mix of the agricultural, the industrial and the new services of our time. A Labour Government built social housing for the people on a grand scale and ensured that houses were available at a reasonable price. The Peterborough Development Corporation planned for the health and welfare of local people who benefited from community schools, the country park at Ferry Meadows and a public library. We need to rediscover our country’s ability to make things and to make things work, because, beyond our history, geography or industry, it is above all the people of Peterborough who will be my great passion.
Of all the speeches I researched, I was struck by Keir Hardie’s in 1901 in which he said that
“the true test of progress is not the accumulation of wealth in the hands of the few, but the elevation of the people as a whole.”
I, too, promise to work for the people as a whole, and I will do everything in my power to succeed.
Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Peterborough (Lisa Forbes). It is never an easy thing to give a maiden speech, particularly in an atmosphere such as the one that we have this evening. I offer her my heartiest congratulations. She skilfully held the attention of the House and whatever the result of the vote later on this evening, I think we probably all wish her well for the future.
I will be very brief as I know that others need to get in. Very quickly, I would like to restate the fact that every single Member of this Chamber supports the Belfast agreement, which was the result of a long peace process. We would love to see the institutions up and running, but we should never forget that that peace process and that Belfast agreement could never have come about without the conditions created by the extraordinary professionalism, skill and courage of the hundreds of thousands who served in the British armed forces, the British security services and the RUC.
I will touch very briefly on the question of the prosecutions of veterans, which was mentioned by the Secretary of State and the shadow Secretary of State. I have been going to Northern Ireland for many years and continue to go there regularly, and I have not yet met a single member of the security forces or armed forces who would like to see an amnesty. They put their lives on the line 24 hours a day to maintain the rule of law in order to ensure that those who believed in pursuing their political aims through peaceful and legal means prevailed, and they do not want an amnesty; they do not want to be on the same level as those terrorists who had an absolutely hideous refusal to respect the rule of law and who pursued their aims by violent criminal acts.
May I therefore ask the Secretary of State and, above all, the shadow Secretary of State: first, not to change any laws, but to ensure that no further prosecutions can come about unless there is categorically new evidence, because it is wrong to pursue these old veterans time and again when there is no new evidence; and secondly—a very key question—to guarantee, by working together, that the framework requires a senior lawyer to guarantee that there will be a fair trial?
Emma Little Pengelly (Belfast South) (DUP)
It feels somewhat absurd that there is so much to say today regarding the reports, but so little time in which to say it. It is deeply frustrating because the people and representatives of Northern Ireland have so many things that they need to air and discuss, and that is being denied. We are currently in a situation of political turmoil across the United Kingdom, but that turmoil and turbulence are even worse in Northern Ireland due to the fact that there are no Northern Ireland institutions.
I want briefly to reiterate the offer that the Democratic Unionist party has made to Sinn Féin. Because of the exceptional circumstances that we find ourselves in, that offer is to go back into government immediately, not just with blind faith, but by agreement that we will enter into government and discuss the issues that we are currently discussing in this talks process and cannot get resolution on; and that, by agreement, if there is no resolution, then the institutions will fall. That offer is there to Sinn Féin, and we ask all political parties to urge them to take it.
There is no risk in the offer for Sinn Féin. We could get back into government, get on with talking about these issues and deal with the historical institutional abuse payments, the much-needed funds for severely injured victims, health, education and the real policies having an impact on people across Northern Ireland every day. That is the offer and I believe that it is an absolutely reasonable one. I ask Sinn Féin to consider it seriously, and everybody in this House and beyond to urge them to take it up. We live in exceptional times; we should be doing something exceptional to try to resolve the situation.
Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)
All Members in this Chamber would like to see the Stormont Assembly restored, but we tabled these self-executing clauses because we recognised that the human rights of the people of Northern Ireland should not be abandoned in the face of political indecision. It now falls on us to hold the Secretary of State to account for how he is enacting the provisions. We are 35 days away from the possibility that these clauses will become law, so will he give us some more detail? In particular, he talks about consultation. Can he confirm whether there is going to be public involvement in that consultation? It is really important for this House to be clear that, just as we would not ask non-medical professionals to consult on how to conduct a vasectomy, we should not do so when it comes to an abortion.
We also need to understand the Secretary of State’s timeline. I agree with the concerns raised across the House about the interim period, and about what will happen when we decriminalise sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 on 22 October if the Assembly is not reconstituted. I note that the Infant Life (Preservation) Act 1929 will remain in place, so the idea that there will not be any regulation at all simply is not true. We must deal with fact, not scaremongering, in this debate. But still, can he confirm that he is talking to the royal colleges—the actual medical experts? He says in the report that there is a cross-departmental Government body. Who is on that body and what is their remit? He talks about talking to the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, but it is the Equality and Human Rights Commission that would have any jurisdiction in terms of that consultation, so when has he spoken to it?
With 35 days to go, what is the Secretary of State’s message to women in Northern Ireland who will need an abortion on 22 October, whether because they have a fatal foetal abnormality, are a victim of rape or incest, or simply do not want to be forced to continue an unwanted pregnancy? How will he make these reports CEDAW-compliant? His own report says that there is not a clear path. Will he tell us a bit more about how he is going to set that out and what international models he is looking at? Above all, can he give us the confidence tonight that when he is managing this interim process, the mother of a 15-year-old girl who is facing a prosecution because she got abortion pills for her daughter who was in an abusive relationship will not face prosecution from 22 October? If we do one thing in this House this evening that is constructive, let us take the stress and pressure off that family.
The Government said that they wanted more time. That is why they amended this clause in the House of Lords. Everybody here has talked about the importance of dealing with that interim period. It will not be dealt with by law; it will dealt with by regulation. So will the Secretary of State set out precisely what regulations he is looking at now so that when we get to that 35-day period we can shorten it and give everybody here comfort that the human rights of the women of Northern Ireland will continue to be upheld?
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I would like to speak briefly about the abortion component of the report. I am still aghast at what section 9 of the Executive Formation Act proposes. In Northern Ireland we have developed the different approach to abortion that robust statistical research suggests means that about 100,000 people are alive in Northern Ireland today who would not be had we embraced the Abortion Act 1967. One hundred thousand lives is a lot of people. In this context, it is no great surprise that our approach has clearly helped.
The democratically elected Northern Ireland Assembly considered this matter as recently as 2016 and voted not to change the law in any way. It is no surprise that on 9 July every Northern Irish Member who takes their seat in Westminster voted against an attempt to overturn our law. However, what is particularly shocking, and what is brought out clearly in the report before us today, is something I do not think, with great respect, dawned on most Members of this House when we asked to consider what was then the entirely new clause 9 on 18 July —that it was not present in the provision we debated on 9 July. What is now section 9 does not just overturn our legal tradition; quite astonishingly, it does not require anything to be put in place for five whole months. That goes against what the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) said.
If the Northern Ireland Assembly is not restored by 21 October, then on 22 October all our law governing will disappear until the point at which a child is deemed incapable of being born alive. I want to put it on record that 60% of those surveyed in a national opinion poll in Northern Ireland said that they did not want any change. I am asking the House today not to make this change against the wishes of the people of Northern Ireland. We had a rally at Stormont where almost 30,000 people walked to retain the rights of the unborn baby in the womb. That has to be preserved.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
It is a matter of profound regret that the Secretary of State has not been able tonight to introduce legislation to this House, as promised, on the institutional historical sex abuse cases. In a letter that he sent to members of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee no later than 6 September, he indicated that he would be seeking to make swift progress. If this is swift progress, I would hate to see slow progress. Members of Survivors Together have already responded that this is an appalling disgrace, and other victims’ groups have indicated how disappointed they are. The hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) quite rightly said that she wanted to have detail about issues to do with abortion legislation. It is right and proper that the House gets the detail and that Members see for themselves the stark reality that comes into play from the end of October this year. I would like to ask the Secretary of State, who will be performing abortions in Northern Ireland? Under what rules will they be performed?
Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration and Renewal) Bill
Monday 9th September 2019
(5 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration and Renewal) Act 2019 View all Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration and Renewal) Act 2019 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 196-I Marshalled list for Report (PDF) - (30 Aug 2019)
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Kevin Foster)
I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 1.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle)
With this it will be convenient to consider Lords amendments 2 to 12.
Kevin Foster
Given the wide consensus that the Bill has attracted, I do not propose to go on too long—[Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”] It is nice to be liked. The Government committed to bring the spirit of several amendments that were supported in this House on Report to the other place, with appropriate wording and at the appropriate place in the Bill. We are pleased that these amendments were also supported in the other place and are now included in the Bill. They include an amendment on heritage, which was brought forward by my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) and requires that, in exercising its functions, the Sponsor Body must have regard to the special architectural, archaeological and historical significance of the Palace of Westminster.
As agreed in the House, the Bill now places a duty on the Sponsor Body to require the Delivery Authority, when considering the awarding of a contract in respect of the carrying of the parliamentary building works, to have regard to the prospective contractor’s policy relating to corporate social responsibility and their policies and procedures relating to employment, including in relation to the blacklisting of employees. I am especially grateful for the collaborative approach and constructive contribution of the hon. Member for City of Chester (Christian Matheson) in formulating that amendment.
The Bill now provides that the reports prepared by the Sponsor Body must be laid before Parliament and must include information about persons to whom contracts in respect of the carrying out of the parliamentary building works have been awarded, in particular with regard to their size and the areas in which they operate. I am particularly grateful to the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) for her collaboration in formatting that amendment.
Lastly, in exercising its functions, the Sponsor Body must now have regard to the need to ensure that opportunities to secure economic or other benefits of the parliamentary building works are available in all areas of the United Kingdom. I would particularly like to thank the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) for collaborating on that amendment and for his work as a member of the shadow Sponsor Body.
I am sure that the House welcomes the fulfilment of the Government’s commitments to the House that these amendments would be included in the Bill at the appropriate place and appropriately drafted. Other amendments passed in the Lords and are now included in the Bill, and I consider that they echo the will of the House, particularly as they build on the recommendations of the prelegislative Joint Committee. There are also minor technical amendments that ensure consistent references to the parliamentary building works in clause 2(5).
In summary, the Bill has benefited from close scrutiny both by the Joint Committee and during its passage through both Houses. I hope the House, having considered the amendments passed in the other place, will concur with them and support the passing of the Bill as it stands, so that we can progress with these important works and secure the home of this United Kingdom Parliament for future generations.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
Mr Speaker, may I start by paying tribute to you and your excellent role as Speaker? I was one of the people who dragged you to the Chair, and you have been outstanding. I will come on to your role with the Education Centre. You have been a stalwart in terms of equality. In your efforts to help me in my role as shadow Leader of the House, you have been exemplary. I will miss business questions, and particularly your jibes at us all. Thank you for everything you have done to uphold the parliamentary system; it has been very good. [Interruption.] That was for you, Mr Speaker.
I thank the Minister for bringing the Bill back to this House, and I thank all Members who have taken part in the debates on restoration and renewal. I am pleased that the Bill has come back, and I want to pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr Lidington), who started the push to move the restoration and renewal Bill forward. I want to deal with the amendments—it is important to get them on record—in three chunks, one relating to the Sponsor Body, one to the physical aspects and one to the future.
We have the Sponsor Body, which will be a single client on behalf of both Houses, and that is a good way of working. It will form the Delivery Authority as a company limited by guarantee. Amendments 10 and 12 require the Sponsor Body to lay its reports before Parliament. One of the key things that Members wanted was the accountability of the Sponsor Body to Parliament, and the amendments will ensure that. Amendment 11 will ensure that we know about all the contracts that are awarded to different companies and the people who operate around the estate.
Amendment 1 is fairly important because it is about having regard to the prospective contractor’s policy relating to corporate social responsibility and the prospective contractor’s policies and procedures relating to employment, which is about the blacklisting of people. Many lives have been destroyed by people being blacklisted and not being allowed to take part in contracts. That is extremely important, and I want to thank my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester (Christian Matheson) for ensuring that this has been passed.
Amendment 9 will require the Sponsor Body, in exercising its functions, to have regard to the need to ensure that there are opportunities to secure economic or other benefits throughout the United Kingdom. That is key, certainly on our side, and it is one of the reasons why we support this Bill wholeheartedly. We wanted to make sure that any benefits were not just confined to one part of the United Kingdom, but go to the whole United Kingdom.
As the Minister said about the physical parts, it is important to ensure that the historical, archaeological and other significance of Parliament continues. That is covered by amendment 8, remembering that it was 900 years ago when the Anglo-Saxons were first involved in this place—and some of them might still be here.
Amendment 5 seeks to ensure that, after the completion of the parliamentary building works, all parts of the estate are accessible to people with disabilities. I know that the hon. Members for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) and for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) were involved in this, and they certainly raised it on Third Reading. If we look at what happens at York Minster, we know we can combine accessibility for people with disabilities with keeping up the building’s historical significance.
As to the future, amendments 4 and 6 strengthen the reference to parliamentary building works in relation to ensuring the safety and security of staff and the public, as well as in relation to the education facilities. Amendment 7 secures your legacy of the Education Centre, Mr Speaker. It makes sure that Parliament’s education and outreach facilities and programme are ensured and that they become a core part of the parliamentary estate and provide a benefit in a greater understanding of Parliament and our democracy. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Sweeney) mentioned the craft school in Scotland. I know that Historic England is aware of it and wants to carry on with this, which could be an outstanding way to ensure that all our crafts—ancient and modern—are secured for our future.
Amendment 2 will place a duty on the Sponsor Body to promote public understanding of the purposes of the restoration and renewal programme, and amendment 3 will ensure that the views of Members, staff and the public are at the front of the Sponsor Body’s mind. Everyone across the nation should feel a part of this project, because this place is in the heart of the nation. We do not have a deadline, as the Olympic Delivery Authority did, so the important part is that we make sure there is a deadline, as Members’ tolerance and the public purse are not elastic. However, I again join the Minister in saying that it is important that this is all secured for future generations, and we support the Bill.
Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)
I will also be very brief. I, too, want to take the opportunity to pay tribute to you, Mr Speaker, following the announcement you have made. You were a huge source of support and encouragement to all of us elected as SNP MPs in 2015, and particularly to me since becoming the Chief Whip. I remember being admonished back in 2015 for clapping in the Chamber, but that reform seems to be progressing forthwith. Of course, you have been a reforming Speaker, and as the Labour shadow Leader of the House said, much of R and R will be a way to secure the legacy of some of the reforms in making this place much more family friendly and much more accessible. Perhaps, in the tradition of the rooms in Portcullis House, there will, in the restored and renewed Parliament, be a Bercow room, in which people can reflect on that legacy.
The SNP has always recognised the need for reform and renewal of Parliament. We have our own views about how much money should be spent and where Parliament should be located, but we accept the progress that the Bill has made. My hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) has been a member of the shadow Sponsor Board and has engaged significantly on this Bill, including helping to secure what has become Lords amendment 9, which we welcome, so that the money that is spent will benefit the whole United Kingdom and its constituent parts. He cannot be here today, because this morning his wife, Karlie, gave birth to twins—Emmie and Freya—and we congratulate him. I hope that under the proxy voting rules that means that I am entitled to cast two votes on his behalf when we return after Prorogation. We hope that those young girls will grow up in an independent Scotland, and we look forward to their being able to visit the House of Commons once it has been renewed.
The biggest question on everyone’s lips is whether the revised and renewed Chamber will include reclining chairs for the likes of the Leader of the House and, indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford), who need to make themselves comfortable. We therefore look forward to the Bill’s progress to Royal Assent and the speaking of Norman French later this evening.
Lords amendment 1 agreed to.
Lords amendments 2 to 12 agreed to.
Points of Order
(5 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption.] I have become aware in the past few hours that the Government are already seeking to circumvent the terms of the motion that the House agreed earlier about the release of documents relating to Prorogation and Operation Yellowhammer. Mr Speaker, would you be able to advise us how we can find out how those papers can be laid in this period? There are a number of ways in which the Government can do so, including the publication of Command Papers and release on websites. Given that the House passed the motion with a majority, the Government should release the information.
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I am sorry that one or two people, in response to the hon. Gentleman rising, yelled, “Yawn.” I wonder whether people observing our proceedings think that that is a proper way for one colleague to show respect for another. It is not a matter of “yawn”—it is a matter of serious issues being raised, and responsibility being incumbent on the Chair in this case to seek to respond. It is not “yawn”—it is serious politics.
The hon. Gentleman has raised a legitimate matter. The simple answer is that the Government must comply with the Humble Address passed by the House. That is the reality of the matter. A debate has happened, a decision has been made, and it is incumbent on the Government to comply manifestly with what has been decided, the spirit, purpose and content of which are entirely clear. [Interruption.] This is not about game playing and machination—it is about doing what Parliament wants, which is what most people would expect their elected Parliament to do. [Interruption.] I do not require any help from someone chuntering from a sedentary position in evident disregard for the procedures of the House and the purport of the hon. Gentleman’s inquiry.
Under Standing Order No. 158, on the presentation of Command Papers, if papers are commanded by Her Majesty to be presented to the House at any time during the existence of a Parliament, which includes periods of Prorogation, although not of Dissolution, delivery of such papers to the Votes and Proceedings Office shall be deemed for all purposes a presentation of them to the House. At least to me, at this point, that seems clear, and I hope that it is not beyond the considerable intellectual capacities of some members of the Government.
Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (LD)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I was wondering whether you might be able to assist. Under the civil service code of conduct for Government special advisers who are Government employees paid for by the taxpayer, a special adviser may not undertake work for a political party during office hours. They should also not use official resources for party political activity. Based on widespread reports, it appears that the Prime Minister’s chief special adviser, Mr Dominic Cummings, almost certainly has undertaken work for the Conservative party while carrying out his duties. With that in mind, I submitted a freedom of information request—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. It is a perfectly reasonable inquiry. Whether it is something upon which I can adjudicate remains to be seen, but I will only know that if I hear it, and the hyena noises render it rather more difficult for it to be heard. The hon. Gentleman will persist, I hope, with his point of order.
Chuka Umunna
With that in mind, I submitted a freedom of information request to the Cabinet Secretary on 13 August asking for details of Government special advisers and, in particular, who they were employed by and whether they were paid out of the public purse. In the case of Mr Cummings, I asked whether, if he is not paid by public funds, he has security access to Downing Street and is treated in the same way as a special adviser paid out of public funds.
Mr Speaker, this is an incredibly important matter of public interest, particularly given that we are about to prorogue and potentially thereafter enter an election period. The Cabinet Office, when we had points of order earlier, replied saying that it would not provide a response to my freedom of information request, which is due tomorrow, until December. That is clearly unsatisfactory. I tried to raise it earlier with the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, but he refused to take any interventions. Given that we are about to prorogue for five weeks, what would you advise we do to ensure that public funds are not being misspent and used for Conservative party purposes in this way?
Mr Speaker
I am sorry, but I have to resort to my usual advice to quizzical Members in these circumstances: persist, persist, persist. Write, seek a meeting, and press again and again and again in pursuit of a response to an entirely legitimate question. Do not take no for an answer.
It is a very long time since I was a special adviser. In those days the rules were extremely strict, and what the hon. Gentleman says resonates with me entirely. I have no reason to suppose the rules have changed. I cannot possibly say what is or is not done by way of conduct on the part of particular individuals now, but that it is a legitimate matter of public interest, rather than something simply to be treated as the subject of cheap badinage and ribaldry, is entirely obvious to me. The hon. Gentleman has a fair inquiry. He should pursue it and not put up with those who sneer and smirk, and think it is all a sort of jolly wheeze and a game, and that it does not matter a damn. It does matter a damn, and I hope the hon. Gentleman will pursue it. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, and I hope he is suitably emboldened and fortified in pursuit of his efforts.
Early Parliamentary General Election (No. 2)
(5 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
00:18 - The House divided: - Ayes: 293 / Noes: 46 - Question accordingly agreed to, without the majority required under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011.
The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson)
I beg to move,
That there shall be an early parliamentary general election.
Before I begin, Mr Speaker, I join others hon. Members in thanking you for your long and distinguished service to the House. We may not have always agreed on everything, but I believe you have always acted in what you judge to be the national interest.
I move the motion under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011. Last Wednesday, the right hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) became the first Leader of the Opposition in the history of our country to show his confidence in Her Majesty’s Government by declining the opportunity to have an election with a view to removing the Government. When he spoke last week, it seemed that he might recover his nerve tonight, and I wait to see how he responds. Referring to his surrender Bill, he said last week:
“Let this Bill pass and gain Royal Assent, and then we will back an election”.—[Official Report, 4 September 2019; Vol. 664, c. 292.]
The surrender Bill—the surrender Act—has now passed. It has gained Royal Assent. He has done his level best to wreck this country’s chances of a successful negotiation. By his own logic, he must now back an election, so I am re-tabling the motion for an early general election. I do not want one, and I hoped this step would be unnecessary, yet I have accepted the reality that an election is the only way to break the deadlock in the House and to serve the national interest by giving whoever is Prime Minister the strongest possible mandate to negotiate for our country at next month’s European Council.
Labour, too, has accepted this reality. In its own leaflets this weekend, it says:
“We need a General Election now”.
That is what it says, yet throughout the weekend, the right hon. Gentleman’s cronies, together with those of other Opposition parties, have been trying to disguise their preposterous cowardice by coming up with ever more outrageous excuses for delaying an election until the end of October, or perhaps November, or when hell freezes over, in the dither, delay and procrastination that have become the hallmark of the Opposition. Why are they conniving to delay Brexit, in defiance of the referendum, costing the country an extra £250 million a week for the privilege of delay—enough to upgrade more than five hospitals and train 4,000 new nurses? The only possible explanation is that they fear that we will win it, and I will win it, and secure a renewed mandate to take this country out of the EU, a policy they now oppose. That is the sorry tale of this Opposition and this Parliament. For the last three years, they have schemed to overturn the verdict of the British people, delivered in a referendum which, in a crowning irony, almost all of them voted to hold. In fact, they did not just vote to hold it; some of them even—
Several hon. Members rose—
The Prime Minister
I will give way with pleasure to the hon. Member for Battersea (Marsha De Cordova).
Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab)
I thank the Prime Minister for giving way; I am really pleased that he has chosen to give me an intervention. He is reeling off the fact that the amount of money that is being spent on Europe could pay for nurses and upgrade our hospitals, but nine years of austerity has led to our NHS being fragmented. Nine years of austerity has led to our education services being failed. Nine years of austerity has led to 4 million children living in poverty, so all you need to do, Prime Minister, is move forward, because we will call an election when it is time.
The Prime Minister
If that is what the hon. Lady thinks, why does she not have a word with her right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and tell him to reverse his absurd policy of spending an extra £1 billion a month to keep us in the EU, when we are spending £1 billion on 20,000 more police officers on the streets of this country?
The Liberal Democrats also called for a referendum on our membership of the EU, and once they got it—by the way, they lost that referendum, of course—they did nothing but try to overturn the result, arrogating to themselves the authority to decide which democratic elections they respect and which they reject. Now—where are they, the Liberal Democrats? There they are—they want a second referendum, but they are already planning to campaign against the result. When asked whether she would implement Brexit if the people voted for it a second time, the party’s new leader, the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), replied no. Every time the Liberal Democrats lose a referendum, they just call for a new one over and over again. It turns out she is the new leader of the referendum party, the Jimmy Goldsmith of our times.
But the Liberal Democrats are models of coherence by comparison with the Leader of the Opposition. His strategy, mysterious as it is, is that by some process he becomes Prime Minister—but without an election, because he is against elections. He then goes to Brussels and negotiates a new deal, presumably keeping us in the customs union and the single market. He then comes back and passes that deal through the House and takes it to the country in a second referendum, whereupon he campaigns against his own deal. [Interruption.] That’s the plan, isn’t it? Perhaps he can clarify. He would urge the nation to reject his own handiwork.
We know the real reason Labour does not want a general election under his leadership. Most of them do not want one because they fear that their party will lose, but there is a small terrified minority of Labour MPs who do not want an election because they actually think the Leader of the Opposition might win, ladies and gentlemen.
As for the Scottish National party, last week the First Minister for Scotland correctly said:
“It’s starting to feel like Labour doesn’t want an election at all”.
She then issued a clarion call to her assembled armies in Westminster to “force an election”. What are they doing? How do those brave stalwarts of Scottish separatism propose to force that election? By heroically abstaining!
The common thread joining all these parties is their extraordinary belief that the national interest requires them pre-emptively to protect the British people from the consequences of their own democratic decisions. The truth is they believe in democracy only when it delivers the results they want. Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition have a constitutional duty—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. There is far too much noise in the Chamber. The decibel level needs to reduce. The Prime Minister should not have to shout to make himself heard, and the same will apply when the Leader of the Opposition gets to his feet.
The Prime Minister
I am grateful, Mr Speaker. [Interruption.] They say they can’t hear. [Laughter.] How’s that? [Hon. Members: “Yeah!”] Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition have a constitutional duty to oppose the Government and to seek to replace them. For this task, they are handsomely paid to the tune of almost £10 million of taxpayers’ money. They are! That is what they are paid to do by the taxpayer.
Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (IGC)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Unfortunately, the microphone being placed so close to the Prime Minister means that he cannot hear that some of us over here are trying to intervene and have something that he and his Back Benchers do not want—a debate. We all want to know whether he will abide by the law that this Parliament has passed.
Mr Speaker
I say as much for the benefit of the watching public as for anybody else that that is an example of what I call the norm: superficially a point of order but entirely bogus. The right hon. Lady has made her point in her own way with suitable alacrity and it is on the record.
The Prime Minister
Thank you, Mr Speaker, for your characteristically impartial judgment.
The Leader of the Opposition: there he sits. His party is paid £10 million by the taxpayer and he himself is entitled to more than £140,000 of taxpayers’ money, yet today we see the extraordinary spectacle of the entire Opposition collectively deciding to abrogate their most fundamental responsibility. They have their job. They know what they should be doing. In this era of creative litigation, are there not grounds for legal challenge to compel them to do it? [Interruption.] Hon. Members can have their say in a minute. I am concluding my remarks.
Sometimes the Leader of the Opposition says that we should leave the EU; sometimes he says that we should have another referendum; sometimes he says that we should negotiate a new deal; sometimes he says that he would accept whatever Brussels offers. Over the past few days, the Labour party has said that it wants to delay Brexit, then negotiate a new deal, then have another referendum, then campaign against its own deal in that referendum. Perhaps its next policy will be to have a referendum on whether to have a referendum.
The Leader of the Opposition cannot lead. He cannot make a decision. He cannot work out whether he is for Brexit or against it—for a referendum or against it. The only options that he likes are dither and delay. I say to Opposition Members—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I am immensely grateful to the Prime Minister for his ready compliance with the procedures of the House. I will take a point of order from Mr David Linden, which I have—[Interruption.] Order. Mr Swire, I do not require any assistance from you. You would not have the foggiest idea where to start. What I am seeking to establish is whether this is a point of order. When I have heard it, I will know, but until I have, I cannot.
David Linden
People observing tonight’s proceedings, Mr Speaker, will see that the annunciator shows that this is the second occasion on which the House has been asked to approve the motion. Given that the Prime Minister is displaying something of a contradiction by saying that he wants to ask the House this question again but will not allow the people of Scotland an independence referendum, can you outline, Mr Speaker, whether this is hypocrisy on the Prime Minister’s part?
Mr Speaker
That was an ingenious effort, but let me say to the hon. Gentleman that the motion would not be on the Order Paper unless it was orderly. I am happy to conduct a seminar for his benefit outside the Chamber at a later date, but it is, at this time, given the context, orderly. The hon. Gentleman has made his own point, but it is a different one, and it does not meet the needs of the case.
The Prime Minister
I say again to everyone on the Opposition Benches: if you really want to delay Brexit beyond 31 October, which is what you seem to want to do, then vote for an election and let the people decide whether they want to delay or not. If you refuse to do that tonight, I will go to Brussels—our Government will go to Brussels—on 17 October and negotiate our departure on 31 October, hopefully with a deal, but without one if necessary. I will not ask for another delay.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
Order. I apologise for having to interrupt the Prime Minister. I will take these points of order, but I hope that they are genuine. The Prime Minister will then proceed with his speech.
Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am keen to have your guidance. Given that we are supposed to be debating whether to have an early general election, I wonder if the Prime Minister, in that context, is willing to share with the House whether he is willing to obey the law of the land.
Mr Speaker
That is a political observation, and not a matter for procedural adjudication by the Chair.
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (LD)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker, on behalf of the Liaison Committee. The Prime Minister gave an undertaking that he would appear before the Committee this Wednesday at 3.30 pm. The Committee met today, and we have written to the Prime Minister asking whether he will still appear, because—
Mr Speaker
Order. I recognise the hon. Lady’s sincerity and the strength of her conviction. If she wishes to contribute to the debate in an orderly way, on her feet, in a speech, because she has caught my eye, she can do so, but she should not use the device of a bogus point of order.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister has just informed the House that on 31 October he will go to Brussels and ensure that we leave with or without a deal, in contravention of a motion we have just passed that we will obey the law in compliance with that law that has just been passed. Is that out of order?
Mr Speaker
I would be immensely grateful if the hon. Gentleman did not feel it necessary to keep pointing at me. I know he feels strongly, but that is not a point of order. [Interruption.] Order. And I would say in terms of the seemliness of these proceedings, come on, let’s have fair play: the Prime Minister is entitled to make a speech and be heard, as will be the Leader of the Opposition.
The Prime Minister
Thank you, Mr Speaker, and thank you for allowing me to repeat my salient point: I will not ask for another delay. The people of this country have had enough of the delectable—[Interruption.] The people of this country have had enough of the delectable disputations—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. This is profoundly disorderly. Members must not be shouted down in the Chamber. There are standards to be upheld, and they must be upheld.
The Prime Minister
It is plain from the turbulent reaction of those on the Benches opposite that they simply want another delay, and I will not have that. The public have had enough of the delectable disputations of this House, and I must warn Members that their behaviour in thwarting the will of the people is undermining respect for this House in the country.
If hon. Members want another delay, the only proper way to do it is to ask permission from our masters, the people—from our masters, the voters—and I commend this motion to the House.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
The only point of any importance that the Prime Minister has just included in his speech is his clear indication that he does not intend to follow the law that has just been passed that requires him to ask for an extension in certain circumstances. He also gave no answer on the two decisions this House has already made today concerning the publication of Yellowhammer documents and his own behaviour as Prime Minister in respect of laws agreed by this House. He seems to have failed to grasp that those on the Opposition Benches have actually been very clear and that the House has expressed its will: until the Act has been complied with and no deal has been taken off the table, we will not vote to support the Dissolution of this House and a general election.
I want an election, as the Prime Minister pointed out, and the Conservative party has very generously broadcast footage of me and my friends saying that we want an election. I do not retreat from that at all; we are eager for an election, but as keen as we are, we are not prepared to risk inflicting the disaster of no deal on our communities, our jobs, our services, or indeed our rights. [Interruption.]
No deal would not be a clean break. It would not mean just getting on with it. It would start a whole new period of confusion and delay, but this time set against a backdrop of rising unemployment, further deindustrialisation and deepening poverty all across this country. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I said a moment ago that the Prime Minister should not be shouted down. Let me say to those who are shouting their heads off that it will be readily obvious to people observing our proceedings that that is exactly what they are trying to do, including some extraordinarily stupid and noisy yelling from people secreting themselves behind the Chair and thinking they are being clever. It is very low grade, it is very downmarket, it is very substandard, it is very boring, it is very predictable, and if the Whips operated any sort of discipline, they would tell those people to try to get a life.
Jeremy Corbyn
The point I was making was that this will be against a backdrop of unemployment, increasing deindustrialisation and deepening poverty within our society, so it is not surprising that the Government were so keen to hide the Yellowhammer documents—their own documents—which would demonstrate that to be the case. We have no faith that the Government are seeking a deal in good faith. Indeed, the former Work and Pensions Secretary said in her resignation letter:
“I no longer believe leaving with a deal is the government’s main objective.”
EU leaders have received no proposals. Government Ministers have offered no explanation of the deal they are seeking—even if there is such a deal—let alone any worked-out proposals to be presented to Parliament for scrutiny. It is no wonder they are so keen to prorogue so early, to avoid any scrutiny of what they are doing.
The only conclusion that can be reached—and it is backed up by all the leaked reports in the press—is that the Government’s pretensions to negotiate are nothing but a sham. The Prime Minister knows full well that there is no mandate for no deal, no majority support for it in the country and no majority support for it in this House, but he refuses to rule it out and refuses to set out any proposals to avoid it. This is a very serious issue: the Prime Minister is running away from scrutiny with his blather and his shouting. Many people, including the right hon. Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd), are increasingly coming to the conclusion that no deal is his only answer, but he has no mandate for that. The last general election gave no mandate for no deal, and the 2016 referendum gives no mandate for it. The co-convenor of the Vote Leave campaign said in March this year that
“we didn’t vote to leave without a deal.”
He is now the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. No deal is opposed by every business group, every industry group and every trade union, and it has been opposed in votes in this House.
I want to turf out this reckless Government—[Interruption.] This Government that are driving up poverty, deepening inequality, scapegoating migrants, whipping up divisions and failing this country. A general election is not something for the Prime Minister to play about with for propaganda points, or even his very poor quality posts on social media, so perhaps he can, possibly for the last time in this Session of Parliament, answer some questions. First—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. [Interruption.] Order. Order. Mr Philp, you are very loud and rancorous. Calm down, young man! You are getting very over-excited—very, very over-excited—and you can do a lot better than that. You must try to do so.
Jeremy Corbyn
First, where are the Prime Minister’s proposals for the renegotiations? Where are they? When were they published? What is their content?
Secondly, if the Prime Minister seeks no deal, why does he not argue for it and seek the mandate for it that the Government do not so far possess? There is no mandate for no deal. [Interruption.] No, I am not giving way. Thirdly, if, as he claims, the Prime Minister is making progress—
The Prime Minister
If the right hon. Gentleman really wishes to avoid a no-deal Brexit, will he explain why he is unwilling to call an election, go to Brussels and seek—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. Mr Docherty-Hughes, calm yourself. Is the Prime Minister satisfied that he has made his intervention, or does he wish to complete it?
The Prime Minister
If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to avoid a no-deal Brexit, why does he not call an election, get a mandate, go to Brussels and negotiate a deal himself? What is his objection to that?
Jeremy Corbyn
We are the responsible party in this room, and we do not want to crash out with no deal. There is also the issue of trust in a Prime Minister who is unable to answer any questions and is desperate to suspend Parliament to avoid any scrutiny.
Thirdly, if the Prime Minister is making progress, as he told the House last week, why did the Taoiseach tell him only this morning that he was yet to receive realistic, legally binding and workable plans? That was only this morning, so the Prime Minister must be able to remember it. Perhaps he could explain why the Taoiseach felt the need to say that. [Interruption.] I realise the desperation of the Tory party when all it can do is rearrange the mics on the Titanic.
Finally, since the Prime Minister did not bother to turn up—[Interruption.] With great respect, I inform Conservative Members that I have no intention of giving way to any of them, okay? Since the Prime Minister did not bother to turn up for the previous debate, will he respect the law and implement the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019 if he has negotiated an agreement that is backed by this House on 19 October?
This Parliament is not a platform for the Prime Minister’s games. It is a Chamber in which the elected representatives of the people hold the Executive to account. That is what parliamentary democracy is about. The Prime Minister has been asked four simple questions—[Interruption.] I am not giving way.
The Prime Minister is talking up no deal to one wing of his party and talking up getting a deal to another. The sad reality is that he is not preparing adequately for the first and not negotiating at all for the other. Sunday 15 September is International Day of Democracy, when the UN celebrates Governments being held accountable to their national Parliaments in a democracy. This Government are only interested in shutting down Parliament to avoid any scrutiny. The Prime Minister’s obfuscations and evasions are being rumbled both at home and abroad, and that is why he does not answer questions and is so keen to avoid any scrutiny.
Tonight the Prime Minister will be attempting to prorogue Parliament for one of the longest Prorogations there has ever been—shutting down Parliament, shutting down democracy, avoiding questions, and taking this country over the cliff of a no-deal exit, with all the damage that will do to many of the poorest and most vulnerable communities in our society and all the damage it will do to trade and jobs, and all because he wants to take this country in the direction of a trade deal solely with the USA rather than anybody else. We are not walking into traps laid by this Prime Minister.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
I will be extremely brief and simply ask one or two questions of the Minister. If we do vote for a general election tonight, it will mean that we enter into new types of rules. There will be purdah and other rules on the civil servants. I have heard from the Prime Minister’s lips his strong contention that he is in favour of a deal and is negotiating hard for a deal, and I absolutely believe him. I would like to hear from the Government how this can be pursued and prosecuted in the course of a general election, in which I believe the Opposition would, to some extent, also have to be kept informed.
That is all I want to ask, because I think it is a very important point. During a general election, when everybody is rightly consumed with campaigning, how will we be able to prosecute these negotiations and keep everybody, including the Leader of the Opposition, informed?
Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy), and I commend him for behaving with dignity in his speech tonight.
This is a crucial time for all of us, and it is a crucial time for all our constituents. Of course there are strong opinions, and there should be. Of course we should have robust debate. Frankly, I am utterly appalled and ashamed of what we have witnessed in the House this evening. [Interruption.] I can see Members laughing. We all have a sense of responsibility, and remember this: we had the death of an MP a few short years ago. Too many Members of this House are receiving death threats. Too many Members of this House are getting verbal abuse outside this place.
The leadership we show, how we all conduct ourselves in this place, is very important, and I appeal to everybody to show restraint, to act in a dignified manner and to show respect to each other. We owe that to all our constituents.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
I believe the right hon. Gentleman says what he says with total sincerity. In that spirit, is he ashamed that, when the Prime Minister was on his feet, a Member from the SNP Benches shouted, “You’re a liar” and a Member from the Labour Benches shouted, “You’re a thug”? Does he agree those things bring the House into disrepute?
Ian Blackford
I am appealing to all Members to behave in a way that is respectful to colleagues and respectful to our constituents.
I listened very carefully to what the Prime Minister said: “I will not ask for another extension.” Dwell on those words, because the Prime Minister is saying with those words that he is going to ignore an Act of Parliament, that he is going to ignore the law. I simply say to the Prime Minister: be careful. You occupy the highest office in the land and what you are demonstrating to the people of the United Kingdom is that the law does not matter. That is a very serious situation to be in. I ask the Prime Minister to think again—to think very carefully or be prepared to pay the consequences of ignoring the law of this land.
Stewart Malcolm McDonald (Glasgow South) (SNP)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that if this was the Head of Government in a country such as Georgia or Moldova, or a country in Latin America, Tory MPs would be lining up to pontificate about that country being a failed state, but because a Union flag has been wrapped around this, with the usual Tory jingoism, they think it is all A-okay?
Ian Blackford
I am deeply concerned about what is happening, about the proroguing of Parliament and about the fact that the Government have pushed it through on the votes of three members of the Privy Council, against the express wishes of the majority of Members of this House. That concerns me and, as democrats, it should concern us all.
I said this last week and I will say it again: the SNP wants a general election. We want the opportunity to bring this Government down, and we are going to take it. We want the opportunity for the people of Scotland to have their voices heard, to make their choice over their futures. We want the opportunity to stop this Prime Minister from ripping us out of the European Union against our will. [Interruption.] May I say to the—
Mr Speaker
Order . The right hon. Gentleman should not have to do so. You are a most statuesque figure, Mr Kawczynski, and therefore you are very readily visible and sometimes audible. I gently say to you, because you are generally a very good-natured fellow, that it is quite inappropriate when standing at the Bar of the House also to be bellowing. Stand and look impressive, rather than yell, man. That would be my advice.
Ian Blackford
Thank you, Mr Speaker. We want the opportunity to stop this Prime Minister from ripping us out of the European Union against our will. Members can jeer all they want, but this Prime Minister has lost Scotland. He has lost the support of the old Scottish Tory leader. Writing in tonight’s Evening Standard, Ruth Davidson has landed a blow on the Prime Minister. Things are really that bad for the Prime Minister and for this shambolic, failing Tory Government. The matter is simple: we want an election but we do not want it on the Prime Minister’s terms. This is a Prime Minister obsessed with running down the clock, a Prime Minister who cannot be trusted and a Prime Minister who is seeking to shut Parliament tonight so that he can drive us off the cliff edge. We are not falling for it.
The Prime Minister thinks he can treat Parliament however he wants. He thinks he can ignore the people of Scotland and treat our Scottish Parliament, our Government and our citizens as second-class citizens. Scotland will not be ignored. Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU. Scotland voted overwhelmingly for the SNP, to oppose the Tory Government here in Westminster. And Scotland will have the chance to vote to say that this Prime Minister and this Government do not represent the people of Scotland and our wishes. Since the referendum, we have been treated with contempt, shouted down, with our voices silenced and our interests sidelined. Let me put the Prime Minister on notice: the election is coming.
Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con)
The right hon. Gentleman fails to tell the House something. I have said this before, but more people in Scotland voted in 2016 to leave the EU than voted for the SNP in the 2017 election.
Hon. Members: More!
Ian Blackford
Members can shout for more, and I see the Prime Minister laughing, but let me tell the hon. Gentleman what happened in 2016: we had an election to the Scottish Parliament and the SNP won its third election on the trot, and we did so with a manifesto commitment that if there was a material change in circumstances, the Scottish people had the right to have a referendum on our future. My message to the hon. Gentleman and to the Prime Minister is this: respect the will of the people of Scotland.
Once the threat of a no-deal Brexit is removed from the table, the SNP will act—and we urge others to act—to bring down the Tories, oust this Prime Minister and let the people have their say. Once we are safe in the knowledge that we are not leaving the European Union at Halloween, the days of this Government will be over. When we return in October, we expect the Opposition parties to work together to bring this Government to an end. We have had enough of this dictatorship; enough of the deceit, the fake news, the sham fighting, the games and the stunts. We have had enough. I say to Members, and to people at home across these islands who are feeling lost, forgotten, anxious and worried about the future, that our time is coming. We will keep fighting for you. Where we can, we will work in the interests of the people across Scotland and the UK, to protect our economy from the Brexit catastrophe. We will create the circumstances and find a way to strip this Government of power, end the democratic deficit and give the people back control. [Interruption.] I say to the hon. Member for Ribble Valley (Mr Evans) that if he wishes to speak in the debate, he might try catching your eye, Mr Speaker, but shouting out like this—shouting down Scottish voices—is not the way to go.
An election is coming, and the SNP will ensure that post the suspension period, when a no-deal Brexit is off the table, the people of Scotland will have the opportunity to choose their future; to choose to be citizens who want to be part of Europe; to choose to live in a country that is outward looking and welcoming; to choose to live in an independent Scotland focused on opportunity and fairness, free of broken Brexit Britain. The Prime Minister is warned: his days in office are numbered.
Sir Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton) (Con)
I had no intention a few moments ago of speaking in this debate, but I would like to say three things that I hope the House will take on board. The first is to appreciate the catastrophic constitutional significance of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011. I tried to repeal it in a ten-minute rule Bill in 2015. We all understand why it came into being—it was to be the glue in the coalition Government after the 2010 election—but it should have had a sunset clause. Its effect is now to trammel this Government and our Prime Minister in a very Kafkaesque trap: he is finding it very difficult to govern but is unable to call a general election. I very much hope that the first act of the new Parliament will be to abolish the Fixed-term Parliaments Act.
The second point is just to issue a word of caution about the danger that comes with mixing up the difficult, complicated and unresolved issue of Brexit with a potential general election. A general election is, by its very nature, general; we are all up for grabs, and all policies in a manifesto are also there for debate. But Brexit has been the most divisive, poisonous and difficult issue of our life. If we go into a general election with an unresolved Brexit, there is no way that a clear answer on Brexit can be said to emerge from that process. Quite possibly, because of the nature of Brexit and the way that it is pushing our entire post-Victorian party system into near collapse—we may have four-way competitions in almost every constituency—we may find that it does not actually resolve the problem of Government either. I ask this House to appreciate that we are in a dreadful bind and that the binary politics of largely Labour and the Conservatives may be behind us, if not forever, at least for a very, very long time.
My third point is this: I have told my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister that, despite some of our past differences, although we worked together very closely in the Foreign Office, I will stick by the Government, but I very much regret, and it is very painful, that 21 of the most decent Members of Parliament whom I very much regard as kindred spirits have lost the Whip. I ask the House to imagine the scene: there is a slightly grotty Victorian building that passes as the headquarters of the local Conservative Association. There are portraits of Disraeli, Churchill and Thatcher on the wall, and perhaps a couple of blank spaces. The chairman is there and the phone rings. Someone says, “Look, I’m a bloke from No. 10. You have never heard of me, but I am afraid your MP has been sacked. You must strike him or her off all the records. You cannot talk to them now and we are going to re-select someone straight away.” The only response that a self-respecting chair can give is, “May I thank you very much for your call, young man? Now bugger off.”
We must appreciate that the constituency is still an essential unit of our democracy. It is the building block that makes this House what it is. There may, of course, be party rules, but we should be very careful about letting party rules be superseded by the control at the centre. I very much hope that, although many of the 21 will be standing down and it matters less to them—it is not the case for some whose career should rightfully be ahead of them—my right hon. Friend and our party system through our Chairman can appreciate that a route should be found back for those who wish to stand again and that all immediate selections for an alternative candidate should be suspended so that it can be known that they have a chance.
Sir Alan Duncan
No!
Those are the three points that I simply want to make. I hope that, as this House goes through what is a very difficult and painful process as we approach the election, when it is recomposed after that election, we can appreciate the importance of legislation in this House and pay it proper attention so that Members of Parliament can see that making law is probably their most important role as Members of Parliament and that political combat should take a second place. If we do that, we then, I hope, will never again have the folly of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act.
Paul Scully
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I fear that my right hon. Friend may have inadvertently misled the House given the fact that every single Member of this party who has lost the Whip is still a member of the Conservative party unless they have chosen to cross the Floor. Therefore, the situation that he has described is not actually the case. It is important to realise that the discussion that we are having is that we need to be in the place—
Mr Speaker
Order. I do not wish to be unkind to the hon. Gentleman, because I recognise that he feels that he has a serious point, but it is not a matter for the Chair. The right hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Sir Alan Duncan) has, if I may say so, made a speech whose meaning is perfectly clear. If the hon. Gentleman wants to disagree with him, he can do so elsewhere, but it is not a matter that requires my adjudication. I was absolutely clear what the right hon. Gentleman was saying and I do not think that the House feels misled, if I may very politely say so.
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
It is a delight to follow the right hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Sir Alan Duncan), who made a thoughtful contribution to this debate in this important time for Parliament, by stark contrast to the beginning of this debate, which I am afraid was not a very edifying spectacle for our constituents who are watching this, many of whom are worried about what is happening in our country right now. The braying, the bluster—Britain deserves better.
I commend the right hon. Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) for the brave decision that she took at the weekend. We are in exceptional times, and in the face of a Prime Minister who is prepared not only to shut out of his party more than 20 individuals who have given it great service, but to shut down Parliament, potentially to flout the rule of law and to inflict on the British public the consequences of no deal as outlined in the Yellowhammer report, I think it is time that others in the Conservative party examine their consciences about what they can do and the role that they are playing in all this.
In his speech, the Prime Minister goaded those of us on the Opposition Benches who disagree with his dash for an election and said that it is because we are afraid that he will win. Well, I say to the Prime Minister that people in this country are afraid. They are afraid of a no-deal Brexit: a no-deal Brexit that—according to his own Government’s analysis, which he is trying to keep secret even in the face of this House voting for it to be published—will mean shortages of fresh food, rising prices, delays and disruption to fuel supplies in the south-east, and severe, extended delays for medical supplies. So it is no wonder that people are afraid, and the Prime Minister should treat this matter with more seriousness.
Geraint Davies
Does the hon. Lady agree that, instead of the Government spending £100 million of taxpayers’ money on propaganda, they should disclose Yellowhammer and spend £100 million promulgating that to educate the public about the horror that faces us if we have no deal?
Jo Swinson
It is very clear that the Government should release that report, and they have been instructed to do so by this House.
I want to scotch the myth that the Prime Minister is putting about that a no-deal Brexit is in some way an end to this whole Brexit issue. As Leo Varadkar made clear today, it would be a case of getting back to the negotiating table, as a no-deal Brexit is just the beginning of many further years of negotiations. If people really want an end to this Brexit mire, the way to do it is to stop Brexit.
Mr Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con)
The Guardian, of which I am an avid reader, says that the Liberal Democrats are poised to back the revocation of article 50 entirely. Is that correct?
Jo Swinson
The hon. Gentleman cannot be surprised that the Liberal Democrats are a party that wishes to stop Brexit. In a general election, where we will stand to secure a Liberal Democrat majority, such a Liberal Democrat majority Government would indeed revoke article 50. He should not be surprised by that position; perhaps he should pay more attention.
This Government and this Prime Minister have no mandate for a no-deal Brexit that they are trying to force on the British people. It is clear from the resignations of the right hon. Members for Orpington (Joseph Johnson) and for Hastings and Rye that he has no plans for securing a Brexit deal. He is not entering into this in any spirit of seriousness. The hon. Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) made that point exceptionally well. How does the Prime Minister seriously think that with the previous occupant of that role having tried to negotiate a deal over the course of three years, he and he alone can achieve in four weeks what she failed to do and fight a general election at the same time—what arrogance. If he were serious about getting a deal, he would be negotiating hard in Brussels, not running away from the responsibility of the job that he now holds and said that he wanted for such a long time.
The right hon. Member for Rutland and Melton made the excellent point that a general election cannot be guaranteed to resolve this issue one way or the other. The best way to do that is to hold a people’s vote on the Brexit deal. That is the best way to resolve this crisis—to give people the choice of the Brexit deal that has been negotiated or remaining in the European Union. I do not believe that there is a majority for any specific type of Brexit in this country, and we could determine whether that were the case in a people’s vote. The Liberal Democrats are crystal clear: we want to stop Brexit.
Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con)
The hon. Lady says that she wants a second referendum, but the problem for the British people will be that if the answer she gets is one that she does not agree with, the stated position of the Liberal Democrats is simply to ignore it.
Jo Swinson
The hon. Gentleman might do well to pay rather more attention to his constituents in Cheltenham and what they would like to see happen. In answer to his point, of course Liberal Democrats want us to stay in the European Union, and we want people to have the ability to choose that option in a people’s vote. We have argued for—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. There were points of order earlier in our proceedings about conduct that was very intimidating for Members and, in some cases, Members’ families. I know that there are inflamed passions, but I just ask Members to consider this: the hon. Lady is trying to deliver a speech and doing so with her customary eloquence and fluency; she should not be shouted down and she will not be—stop it.
Jo Swinson
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I appreciate that others in the House would like the Liberal Democrats to be silenced, but that will not happen on my watch, because we are crystal clear on Brexit. We want to stop Brexit, and that is why thousands of people across the country are joining the Liberal Democrats, including MPs from both the Labour and the Conservative parties.
Whether it is votes in this House or ministerial colleagues, the Prime Minister is making a habit of losing. Although I believe that a people’s vote is the best route to resolve this, I say to the Prime Minister that he can have his general election as soon as he secures an extension. Otherwise, we risk the scenario of a general election where we might crash out of the European Union without a deal either during or in the immediate aftermath of such an election and with Parliament not sitting at those crucial moments. It would be the height of irresponsibility to dissolve Parliament at that time. Any general election must be undertaken in a period of calm, with an orderly approach, not in a period of national crisis.
The Prime Minister is playing at this. In his speech tonight, he made it sound like this was sport—like this was a game. This is not a student debating society. This is about the national interest and being sure that we avoid the risk of a no-deal Brexit, and that is why we will vote down his motion tonight.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
In normal circumstances, parliamentary democracy serves our country well, but in the past two and a bit years, I have been ashamed of the behaviour of this Parliament—a Parliament in which, as academic analysis by the Library points out, 409 out of the 650 constituencies had leave majorities. That was on an 80% turnout—far higher than any turnout we are elected on at a general election.
Over the past two and a bit years, we have a Parliament that thinks it knows better than the public whom this Parliament explicitly gave the decision to. We have a Parliament that thinks it is acceptable to use representative democracy to defeat direct democracy—a direct democracy explicitly agreed and voted for by this Parliament. We have a Parliament that has totally failed to work across party lines to find an acceptable way forward, and we have a Parliament that is very good at saying no but is bereft of ideas to come up with anything better. We also have a Parliament where an increasing number of MPs who were elected for one party, often with significant majorities, then declare for another without any agreement from their constituents.
If we value our democracy and everyone who took part in the referendum, we must honour the result and everyone who voted, all of whom were told that the result would be respected. Democracy requires that the losers accept the result. We should honour the referendum by returning powers over our money, laws, borders and trade in a way that is orderly and supports jobs. I want to see our negotiations turbo-charged. We need a Government with a mandate and a new Parliament that will actually vote for something for a change—a new Parliament that will work in the national interest for a good deal that respects the referendum result.
Sir George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous), although I find it a little strange that he criticises the House for not working on a cross-party basis—that is why we are here tonight and that is why so many of the parties in the House of Commons will oppose the Government’s motion. I think that he means that he wants cross-party working so long as the parties work with him, rather than between themselves.
In my time in this House, I have seen seven Prime Ministers come and go. We are now on the eighth. I had enormous differences with many of them, but in every case up until now, I have always accepted that they acted in good faith and what they perceived to be the national interest.
Before I go any further, I should point out that what I am about to say breaks two rules that I have set myself during my time in the House. The first is to try to play the ball, rather than the man or woman, and the second is never to take issue with the Chair. I am not about to break the second one, Mr Speaker, but I will comment on it. All the Speakers I have served under—I think that you are the fourth—have always upheld the rights and privileges of Members of this House, which you have done, and they have always upheld the constitution of our country and the rules of this House, and they have all done it in their own distinctive way. I want to pay tribute to the way you have conducted yourself. You have stood up for the rights of this House and—often in the face of criticism, usually from Government Members—you have shown great courage in carrying out your responsibilities, and I pay tribute to you.
The other rule, which I am about to break, brings me to the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson). He is, as everybody would agree, often entertaining. He does, as I know from some experience with him, have an enormous amount of stamina. However, political leaders need to have three additional qualities: first, it is essential that they exercise good judgment; secondly, they need to be trusted to follow a course of action that they genuinely believe is in the best interests of our country, even in circumstances when it might not be universally popular to do so; and thirdly—I find this the most troubling part of the Prime Minister’s speech tonight—they need to be absolutely clear that on no occasion would they contemplate breaking the law of the land. As, sadly, has been demonstrated in his short time as Prime Minister, the right hon. Gentleman has shown neither good judgment or any sense that he is willing to put what is best for our country ahead of his own personal ambition.
In normal times, the logic of the case I have just made would be that I supported the motion before us, but these are not normal times. The Prime Minister cannot be trusted not to use the vacuum created by a general election to thwart the will of this House. If he is serious about coming up with a deal that will suit all the concerns we have, why are we in this House at this time of night debating whether to hold a general election? Why is he not in Brussels trying to get a deal? Why is he not putting the interests of this country above his own political ambitions?
Let me be as clear as I can. I desperately want a general election because the people of Knowsley deserve better than this squalid, mean and incompetent Government, but to shut down Parliament for a general election at this critical point in our history would require us to trust that the Prime Minister would behave honourably. I cannot take that on trust. I will conclude with some words with which the House will be familiar. Those words are:
“Cometh the hour, cometh the man.”
Well, the hour has come, but certainly not the man.
Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
I am pleased to be called in this debate and to follow the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Sir George Howarth).
I have lost count of the number of times in my travels through the beautiful constituency of Thirsk and Malton when I have been approached by people saying, “What on earth are you lot doing down there? Why can’t you simply sort it out together?” The reality is that there are three reasons why we cannot do so.
The first is, of course, that there are an awful lot of remain MPs in this Parliament, and I speak as a remain Member of Parliament. I voted to remain and if there was another referendum I would vote to remain again, but I do not advocate a referendum. I have had my fill of referendums. I also voted in this place to give the people a vote to decide whether we stay or we leave. Nevertheless, if people are straightforward, when push comes to shove, a number of MPs in this place do want a second referendum, whatever they might say.
The second reason is party politics, and the Leader of the Opposition is of course the worst culprit. He claims now that to leave the European Union with the wrong deal would be catastrophic, despite the fact that for decades he campaigned to leave the European Union on any terms possible. The reality is that when the previous Prime Minister’s deal came back before the House—a fair deal, in my view—90% of my colleagues on the Government side of the House voted to pass that deal, while only 2% of Labour Members voted for it—five Members of Parliament. Too much party politics got in the way of a sensible deal.
Finally, on Brexit perfection, 10% of my colleagues on this side of the House, for whatever reason—the deal was either too hot or too cold—did not vote for that deal. It was not seen as the Goldilocks deal. Some people said that it was not Brexit. Some said that the people had voted for a completely clean break. The reality is that the Vote Leave campaign said clearly in its manifesto that there is a European free trade zone that stretches from Iceland to the borders of Russia, and when we left we would be part of it.
It is quite reasonable for people to expect a deal when we leave, which was why the previous Prime Minister set out her red lines and brought back a deal, which respected the promises that were made before the referendum. To settle the issue, Opposition Members often ask for a people’s vote. Now is the right time for a people’s vote.
James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)
As always, my hon. Friend is making a brilliant point. The only sadness about proroguing is that we will not have the Treasury Committee chairmanship elections. Many members of the public are opening their front door and finding on the doormat a Labour leaflet that says, “We want a general election, and we want it now.” Is that not confusing for them?
Kevin Hollinrake
It is very confusing. I, too, regret that we will not be here on Wednesday to complete the final election process for the Treasury Committee.
Nevertheless, now is the perfect time for a general election. If Opposition Members are right and the public do not want deal or no deal, the public will vote in their favour. They will return a coalition Government or another Government who can take their choice forward. If they feel that they want to move down the track of deal or no deal, they will vote for the Conservatives and their policy of delivering Brexit on 31 October this year. Now is the right time to trust the people to make that choice. Is it simply political advantage that is getting in the way of that? There are two imperatives in keeping the deadline of 31 October. The first is getting a deal with the European Union with that deadline of 31 October, and the second is that when the deal returns to the House—I believe the Prime Minister can deliver that—Members across the House will have a choice either to vote for a deal or to vote for no deal. Surely they will choose a deal and we will leave on 31 October.
Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab)
First, I am sorry to see you go, Mr Speaker, because you have stood up for Back Benchers in the past 10 years, and you have been a great respecter of the Chamber. I wish you and your family all the best for the future.
I do not intend to speak for long, but suffice it to say that I agree with the Prime Minister. He uses the same language as me when he says, “Put it to the people”. He considers that the people should be engaged in the final say, so let them have it in a confirmatory ballot on the issue of Brexit in a people’s vote. It is wrong to conflate Brexit, which is a decision for a generation, with a general election campaign, which is meant to decide a programme of government for a maximum of five years. I think the Prime Minister knows that.
Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Phil Wilson
No, I am not going to speak for long.
The Prime Minister has been found out. It is about eight weeks to 31 October, but he wants to take up the next four or five weeks with electioneering, rather than going to look for a deal. I have some words of advice for him: go to Brussels, and begin to negotiate. Bring back the deal that you have promised the country, and put it to the House. I will help to facilitate its passage through Parliament, as long as it is put to the British people so that they can decide whether they want to go ahead with it or stay in the EU in a confirmatory ballot.
The Prime Minister has lost the Father of the House, Winston Churchill’s grandson and his own brother. I understand that in the past few days the Duke of Wellington has left the Conservative party. The Prime Minister has met his Waterloo. The Conservative party can change its mind on no deal, but it refuses to allow the British people to do the same on Brexit. They need to have a final say on Brexit. After three and a half years, on the will of the people and the generational decision of Brexit, they have the right to be asked again in the light of the fact that this Government are hellbent on moving towards the EU exit door without a deal. The Government will say it would be a betrayal of Brexit and the British people if we do not deliver on Brexit. I will tell you what is a betrayal of trust: leaving the EU without a deal and not telling the British people that it is not a clean break. Like any Brexit deal, but even more so in the event of no deal, it will lead to years of uncertainty and economic woes for the majority of the people in this country, including unemployment. But of course the main pursuers of Brexit are not the ones who will be losing their jobs.
We need to resolve Brexit with the confirmation of the British people. That is how it began in 2016, and that is how it should be brought to a conclusion. The people have the right to compare the facts today with what was promised to them three and a half years ago. Brexit started with the people and it should end with the people. Prime Minister, resolve Brexit first and then let us have a general election. I will not be supporting the motion tonight.
Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)
The fundamental question that faces us today about whether or not we should have an early parliamentary election is really the same question we have been debating now for many, many years, and in particular in the past three years in relation to the referendum result. The key question is: who governs this country? That is the issue before us tonight. I have to say, with the greatest concern, that the Labour party has taken the view that it should run away from the very question that it knows it will not be able to answer unless it wins the general election. It also knows that it will not win that general election on all the present estimates. That is the real reason why Labour Members will not answer the question of who governs this country and why they will not, apparently, vote tonight to answer the question and give us a general election.
The Leader of the Opposition kept on saying that he would allow a general election only if the European Union (Withdrawal) (No.6) Bill, which has been given Royal Assent today, was passed. The Bill has been passed, but ironically it still has not answered the question I posed at the beginning about the law of the land and who governs this country. There is nothing in that Act to repeal section 1 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, which says, as the law of the land, that 31 October is exit day as we speak in this debate. Section 1 also says that the European Communities Act 1972 is repealed. Furthermore, the commencement order has already been made. There is nothing in the Bill by which anybody can properly accuse the Prime Minister of not complying with the rule of law, because the rule of law sets out 31 October. That is the law of the land and there is nothing in the new Act that says otherwise.
I simply say this: this is a dereliction of duty by the Labour party. It is refusing to allow the British people to decide who governs this country, and it is running away from the fact that under the European Communities Act 1972 and the European Union we are governed by majority vote by the other countries of the European Union. That is how Labour is letting down the very people it represents.
In the leave constituencies of Labour Members, there are people who know very well what is happening, and increasingly, according to the opinion polls, they are not interested in supporting the Labour party, because it is running away from the one central question—who governs Britain?—and the democracy that lies behind it. Give the people the freedom to enable them to decide, instead of the rabble on the other side of the House.
Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Ind)
In its handling of Brexit, this House has lost the respect of the country and made us a laughing stock around the world. Prolonged uncertainty, as much as no deal, can tip us into recession, with disastrous consequences for jobs and living standards. I hear high-minded speeches about protecting the constitution and the propriety expected of Government, and I accept that a small number of Members are vehemently opposed to no deal but would support Brexit with a fair deal. I also regret the fact that the Government decided to prorogue this House, which was as unnecessary as it was undesirable.
The vast majority on the Opposition Benches, when they claim support for an affirmative referendum and/or opposition to no deal, are determined to overturn the result of the referendum. They have displayed an increasing contempt for our duty as democrats to respect and implement the result. They lecture others about democracy, accountability and our national interest, yet they are hell-bent on frustrating the will of the majority of the people, as expressed in that referendum. They should be honest: it is their objective to thwart Brexit in whatever the circumstances. Whatever deal is put to this House, there are many, many people who will vote against it because they want to thwart the will of the people, in terms of that referendum result.
Many of the so-called progressives in this House are fuelling right-wing extremism by showing contempt for the result and the majority who voted to leave. We asked the people and they gave us their decision—to leave the European Union. I say that as a remainer. One cannot be a selective democrat who respects democracy only when it delivers their preferred result. This goes to the root of the Leader of the Opposition’s position tonight. He demands an election time and again, but now, given the opportunity, he vetoes an election, not because of the national interest or stopping no deal, but because he knows he would lose that election—not because of the vast majority of the values of decent Labour MPs and many Labour party members, but because, as a lifelong Eurosceptic leading a party of remainers, he has been caught out trying to have it both ways on Brexit time and again. He does not have the leadership skills required at a time of so many challenges facing our country, and his leadership has led to the party of anti-racism and equality becoming the party of institutionalised anti- semitism—so much so that a majority of Jews in this country feel that they would not be safe in the event of his becoming Prime Minister.
This House could not stand up for the public interest or break its stalemate for over three years. Therefore, the national interest demands a general election; then, maybe, a new House will be able to show the leadership that this country needs and deserves to begin the process of rebuilding trust in this place and healing the scars of division in our society. [Interruption.] I hear some of my hon. Friends saying, “What about a by-election?” That is what the Momentum-types in my constituency keep saying—that I am running away from the electorate by not having a by-election now I am an Independent. I am voting for a general election tonight. I am willing to face the people in my constituency, unlike too many of the people on these Benches.
Finally, Mr Speaker, many tributes have been paid to you, quite rightly, for the way you have presided over this House. I would like to add to that the work you did for children with speech and language difficulties, which changed the lives of many families.
When I heard the speeches earlier, in which people talked about how proud they were of this House of Commons, I thought, “They’re not living in the real world”. My voters, my constituents, are not proud of this House of Commons; they think we’ve entirely lost the plot.
The time has come for people to be honest with the British people, and that means we need to respect the result of the referendum. The alternative would be to fuel right-wing populism like we have never seen in the history of this country.
Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con)
Nobody can argue that tonight we are not facing an impasse that affects not just our relationship with Europe, but the very constitution of our country. Sadly, I find that a people’s vote is not an answer, because this question is not just one question; it is every question. The only way to answer it is to ask the British people who they want as their advocates in this House, who they want speaking for them not just on one issue but on every issue. The question is: who will stand up for the British people. Let us call an election and ask them who governs Britain. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I have never known a situation in which Mr Gapes cannot be heard. If there is some private spat taking place, it should take place outside the Chamber, not in it. It is very unsatisfactory.
Mike Gapes
First, may I pay tribute to you, Mr Speaker, for what you have done standing up for representative parliamentary democracy against an arrogant and overbearing Executive?
I do not have long. I want to make two points. First, there is an old adage: neither Washington nor Moscow. I say: neither Uxbridge nor Islington. In this time of national crisis, this country is in a very dangerous place, and it is time that all moderate social democrats, one nation Conservatives and Liberals came together to stop the extremism, which is going to damage our country for decades to come. We have to stop this process, and the best way is to recognise a general election will not resolve it, as the right hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Sir Alan Duncan) made clear. We have to put the issue back to the people, as others have said. We need a people’s vote, which would be an informed choice. We should pause this process, stop the no-deal Brexit, defend the people in Ireland and in Gibraltar—
Mr Speaker
I say by way of explanation for those who observe our proceedings—the nods suggest they are well ahead of me, which I would expect—that the majority does not satisfy the requirements of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 for the purpose of engendering the election that some seek—[Hon. Members: “Shame!”] I am simply the messenger, and I have reported the facts. I am glad that the matter is of interest to those who are looking upstairs. Thank you very much indeed.
The Prime Minister
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I earlier urged the House to trust the people, but once again the Opposition think they know better. They want the British Prime Minister to go to a vital negotiation without the power to walk away. They want to delay Brexit yet again, without further reference to those who voted for it, handing over to Brussels an extra £250 million a week for no purpose—enough to upgrade more than five hospitals or train 5,000 new nurses. And most egregiously of all, not only have they refused to choose the way ahead; they have now twice denied the British people their say in an election. The House cannot choose; it will not let anyone else choose. It resolves only to be irresolute and decides only to be undecided, determined to dither, adamant for drift, so now the House will move to adjourn and resume with the state opening and the Queen’s Speech on 14 October. I hope the Opposition will use that time to reflect. Meanwhile, the Government will press on with negotiating a deal, while preparing to leave without one. I will go to that crucial summit in Brussels on 17 October, and no matter how many devices this Parliament invents to tie my hands, I will strive to get an agreement in the national interest.
This Government will not delay Brexit any further. We will not allow the emphatic verdict of the referendum to be slowly suffocated by further calculated drift and paralysis. While the Opposition run from their duty to answer to those who put us here, they cannot hide forever. The moment will come when the people will finally get the chance to deliver their verdict on how faithfully this House executed their wishes, and I am determined that they will see that it was this Government who were on their side.
Jeremy Corbyn
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. [Interruption.] I think we have had quite enough playground politics from the Conservative party this evening. The one thing the Prime Minister did not say was that he was going to obey the law of this country. He did not say that he acknowledged or accepted three votes that have taken place in this Parliament. At his request, the House is now apparently due to be prorogued this evening for one of the longest prorogations in history simply in order to avoid any questioning of what he is doing or not doing, simply to avoid discussion about Yellowhammer, and particularly to avoid any discussion about the proposals that have been put to the European Union that he has or does not have or that do or do not exist. This Government are a disgrace, and the way the Prime Minister operates is a disgrace—[Interruption.]
Jeremy Corbyn
I hope that the Prime Minister will reflect on proroguing and shutting down Parliament to avoid a Government being held to account, because that is exactly what he is doing today and proposes to do to this country.
Ian Blackford
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I should perhaps congratulate the Prime Minister, because at least he has been consistent. He has lost every vote he has brought to this House since he became Prime Minister. Perhaps that is why he is trying to shut down democracy this evening. The message that must go to the Prime Minister is that he can run for the next few weeks, but we will be back here in the middle of October. He is the Prime Minister of a minority Government, and he has been given an instruction that he has to go to Brussels and get an extension. Once that extension has been delivered, we will have an election, and Boris will be swept from Government. The people of Scotland will get their say, and I look forward to our securing our future as an independent Scottish Government away from the clutches of a Tory Brexit Britain—an isolationist Britain that is taking us away from our partners and friends in the European Union.
Sir Edward Davey
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. This is a sad day for our democracy. We are seeing this Parliament shut down because the Prime Minister is running away from accountability and scrutiny. A Prime Minister who said that he is not prepared to abide by the rule of law is running away from this Parliament. The Liberal Democrats offer the Prime Minister a way out: put it to the people in a people’s vote.
Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Can you advise me on how I can put the views of my constituents on the record this evening? I was due to present to the House a petition from thousands of my constituents who wish Parliament not to be prorogued. Due to the procedures, the voices of my constituents will be silenced this evening and the petition will not be heard. Can you advise me on the actions I can now take?
Mr Speaker
There are two actions that can be taken. One is to speak on the Floor of the House, which is what the hon. Lady has just done, and to that extent she has found her own salvation. The second course of action open to her is to deposit the petition in the Bag. I have a feeling that, with a fleetness of foot that will be admired in all parts of the House, that is the action she will now take. It may be a second best so far as she is concerned but, as I say, she has found a means by which to give expression to the concerns of her constituents.
Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. We now face 34 days during which all the checks, balances and gears of parliamentary democracy have been deliberately stalled while the Government teeter between avoiding and evading the law. This is neither normal nor honourable.
We desperately need a new politics of citizens’ conventions in every nation and of truth and conciliation in an informed referendum, with article 50 revoked, if necessary, to allow that to happen. In all honesty I know I cannot ask you to resolve this, but I think the time is fast approaching when you will have to do exactly that.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The events of tonight have clearly shown that our political system is broken. It is wrong that a Prime Minister can suspend Parliament as a mere inconvenience simply to avoid scrutiny. It is wrong that he can cynically try to use the proposal of a general election as a way of getting us to crash out of the EU while we are in the middle of a general election campaign.
We cannot continue with this uncodified constitution that depends on people playing by the rules, when we have a feral Government who are not only not playing by the rules but are not even going to abide by the law. We urgently need a written constitution and a citizens’ convention to inform it. No one voted for less democracy. We should design our constitutional settlement so that such a cynical power grab can never be allowed to happen again.
Luke Graham (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your guidance, because I think many of our constituents will be confused tonight. They will be confused because a Labour party that has asked for a general election for two years has turned one down, because the Liberal Democrats are acting anything but democratically and because the SNP is so arrogant that it says it speaks for all of Scotland, when no one party speaks for all of Scotland.
Tonight a lot of people in this House have put our faith—[Interruption.] You talk about shouting people down, but you are happy to shout me down. I think not. You will not shout me or my constituents down.
A lot of people have put faith in my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to come back with a new deal, and there are concerns about time. In the time that you have left, Mr Speaker, can you assure the House that additional time will be made available for debate when we come back? If that means late-night sittings or weekend sittings, we shall have it. We need to debate a new rule, and hopefully you will help facilitate that.
Mr Speaker
The House is in charge of its own procedures. I note the opinion that the hon. Gentleman holds, and it will be shared by many of his colleagues, I am sure, but not by others. As I say, the House is in command of its own procedures. We do not have Executive control of the House. The House can do as it wishes in these matters, and his opinion on this subject will have been heard.
Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I have not served in this House for as long as you, but I do recall that about a decade ago the Lisbon treaty was rammed through this House, without a referendum. That caused such ill feeling among the people of the United Kingdom that, in a way that no one could have predicted at the time, within seven years the people of this country voted to leave the EU. My point is that the people who rammed the treaty through at the time thought they were being very clever, but history proved them wrong. The people on the other side of the House who think they have been very clever tonight by resisting a general election cannot hide forever from the judgment of the people. They should ask not for whom the bell tolls, because eventually it tolls for them.
Brendan O'Hara (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Could you advise me how I register my anger and deep frustration at the outrageous and profoundly undemocratic suspension of this Parliament this evening? With barely seven weeks before the UK is due to leave the European Union, my constituents are deeply worried, understandably so, that, as the right hon. Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) said at the weekend, this Government have no interest in securing a deal and are hellbent on pursuing a catastrophic policy of no deal. Along with every other part of Scotland, my constituency voted overwhelmingly to remain. We are facing profound and devastating effects on our tourism, farming and fishing industries, and surely the least that my constituents could expect is that their view Member of Parliament is able to represent them in this Chamber at this most critical moment.
Mr Speaker
The hon. Gentleman began his attempted point of order by inquiring how he could register his anger, and he has of course now done so. It is on the record and it will be reproduced in the Official Report. Something tells me that his observations in the Official Report will shortly be winging their way towards the local media in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency.
Patricia Gibson
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The people of Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU. I seek your guidance because tonight not only have they been ignored, but their views have been dismissed with utter contempt. I ask you what outlet the people of Scotland can have until they can express their view about their constitutional future as to being part of this moribund and corrupt Union, which has been exemplified tonight.
Mr Speaker
The time when the hon. Lady’s constituents, and, more widely, the electorate of Scotland, might be in a position to register their views in the way she suggests could well be not long from now.
Mr Speaker
No set of points of order would be complete without the product of the lucubrations of the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Martin Docherty-Hughes).
Martin Docherty-Hughes
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I wonder whether you could advise me on process for what is supposed to be the mother of Parliaments. [Interruption.] Non-sober Members on the Government Benches should maybe wheesht a wee bit, especially those who cannae haud their drink. If the Government do not meet the obligations of a vote of the House in the next few weeks, what is open not only to Members—who have overwhelmingly rejected the Government’s position not only on a general election at this time but, more importantly, on implementing the decisions of the majority of Members in relation to a no-deal Brexit— but to you, as Chair of this House, to assure not only me but my constituents that a Government who do not listen to the so-called sovereign Parliament are therefore undermining fundamentally—[Interruption.] The hon. Member should maybe wheesht a wee minute. I have told him once; I will not tell him again. The fact that he is not even able to take a chair—he is sitting on the flair—says mair about him than any other Member in this House. If the Government will not implement the law of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, what is open to you, Mr Speaker, and the House to ensure that they do?
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. At this stage it is a hypothetical question, because one would need to look at the specifics, but what I would say to him is that if there is a dispute as to what a law means, or what compliance with it looks like, that is ultimately justiciable, and therefore it is to be expected that it would be the subject of a court ruling. These are not uncommon matters, so it would be a very high-profile situation in the circumstances with which we are dealing, but it does seem to me that Members should reflect upon these matters, and think about their options and the attitude of their colleagues, in the cool light of day. That is not necessarily best achieved by a furious focus at 12.51 in the morning.
Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. During the course of this process, the European Statutory Instruments Committee was set up in order to sift those statutory instruments that would be required in the event of Brexit happening. In advance of 29 March, the Government brought forward a number of these no-deal SIs so that, as they said, the UK would be prepared for a no-deal Brexit. The Committee has sifted 240 of these SIs that have come forward as negative instruments—there will be 580 in total.
I have discovered today that the Government intend to bring forward 10 of these statutory instruments as made affirmative statutory instruments, in order to ensure that we are prepared for a no-deal exit. I am a bit confused as to why the Government did not bring these forward in advance of 29 March, if a no-deal Brexit was supposed to happen on that date, or the second date on which a no-deal Brexit was supposed to happen, or in fact at any time before Prorogation happened so that the Committee could sift them, as appropriate, and the House would have the opportunity to have its say on whether or not these were appropriate statutory instruments to go through. Is there any recourse that we can have, given that Prorogation is about to happen and these instruments will be made without the say-so of the House?
Mr Speaker
I am not privy to the Government’s thoughts on these matters. It would be perfectly open for a member of the Executive branch to respond to the hon. Lady if he or she so wished, but I do not detect a notable enthusiasm. I am not aware, looking at him now and at his body language, that the Leader of the House is about to uncoil. If he were to do so, doubtless he would give a response, but he is not doing so. Although it is a matter of very considerable importance to the hon. Lady, it is not something in relation to which I can offer her help now. I suggest that she takes it up, in view of the important position that she holds in her party, with the Leader of the House, whom I must say I have always found to be, in every dealing, a most courteous and agreeable individual. I am sure that he would be more than content to discuss the matter with her, over either a cup of English breakfast tea or, conceivably, something stronger.
Dr Johnson
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Earlier this week, the Leader of the Opposition said that he would vote for a general election tonight if Royal Assent was passed, but today he said that he would not, because he wants to prevent no deal. Can you confirm that, if an election had been held on 15 October, there would have been plenty of time, had he won the election, to have prevented no deal, so, in actual fact, there must be another reason for him running scared?
Mr Speaker
I cannot confirm anything of the sort. The expression “plenty of time” is an evaluative statement and it is obviously a view that the hon. Lady holds and she is entitled to it, but I certainly cannot confirm anything of the sort. I think that, essentially, she is accusing the Leader of the Opposition of tergiversation. [Interruption.] Yes, tergiversation. It is not a new charge. It is a charge that has been levelled many times over the centuries.
Mr Speaker
No, no. Nothing further is required. That is the charge that the hon. Lady is levelling, but it is not a fatal charge. It has to be said that not only is it not a fatal charge, but it is not a novel concept, or without precedent in the history of our politics. We will leave it there.
Stephen Gethins (North East Fife) (SNP)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister has previously intimated that there may be a number of solutions and new negotiations ahead of the next European Council. Members on the Government Benches might say that he is being disingenuous, but if we are prorogued, what opportunity does this House have to consider them before the next European Council?
Mr Speaker
The House is scheduled to return on 14 October and the hon. Gentleman knows for what purpose we will resume—for the Gracious Address and the opening of the new Session—but the House and its Members are legendarily ingenious in ensuring that that which they wish to be attended to in the House is attended to in the House.
Order. The sitting is now suspended until 1.10 am. Shortly before the sitting resumes, I shall cause the Division bells to be sounded.
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners
(5 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Mr Speaker
Black Rod, I treat you and what you have to say with respect, and I recognise that our presence is desired by Her Majesty the Queen’s Commissioners. They are doing what they believe to be right, and I recognise my role in this matter. [Interruption.] Wait a minute. I could not care less whether you like it or not. [Interruption.] No, I am more than happy, if people have the basics of tolerance and manners to listen, they would hear that I am perfectly happy, as I have advised others, to play my part, but I want to make the point that this is not a standard or normal Prorogation. [Interruption.] I do not require any assistance from you, Mr Stephenson. You would not have the foggiest idea where to start on seeking to counsel me on this—[Interruption.] I require no response from you, young man. Get out man—you will not be missed.
I have already made the point, if people have the manners to listen, which they have not, that I will play my part. This is not, however, a normal Prorogation. It is not typical. It is not standard. It is one of the longest for decades, and it represents, not just in the minds of many colleagues but for huge numbers of people outside an act of Executive fiat. I quite understand. I have already said that I respect Black Rod, who is doing her duty. The Queen’s Commissioners are doing their duty, and I will play my part. I completely understand. [Interruption.] It is not disorder. I do not require advice on order from you, Mr Stuart. You are a master of disorder, man. I completely understand why very large numbers of Members are much more comfortable staying where they are. Mr Stuart, if you do not like it, you are perfectly entitled to your view. I could not give a flying flamingo what your view is. [Interruption.] Thank you very much indeed.
The Speaker, with the House, went up to hear Her Majesty’s Commission; on their return, the Speaker sat in the Clerk’s place at the Table.
Royal Assent
Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)
Will you not take a peerage then?
Mr Speaker
Who said it was offered?
I have to acquaint the House that the House has been to the House of Peers, where a Commission under the Great Seal was read, authorising the Royal Assent to the following Act:
Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration and Renewal) Act 2019.
Her Majesty’s Most Gracious Speech
(5 years, 2 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Mr Speaker
I have further to acquaint the House that the Leader of the House of Lords, one of the Lords Commissioners, delivered Her Majesty’s most gracious speech to both Houses of Parliament, in pursuance of Her Majesty’s command. For greater accuracy, I have obtained a copy and also directed that the terms of the Speech be printed in the Journal of this House. Copies are being made available in the Vote Office.
The Speech was as follows:
My Lords and Members of the House of Commons
My Government’s legislative programme has laid the foundations for the United Kingdom’s departure from the European Union while pursuing wide-ranging domestic reform.
Landmark legislation was passed, and has now been commenced, to repeal the European Communities Act. Other laws are in place to enable the United Kingdom’s smooth exit from the European Union, establishing new arrangements on international sanctions, nuclear safeguards, customs, and reciprocal healthcare arrangements. Close to 600 Statutory Instruments have been made to ensure a functioning statute book following the United Kingdom’s departure from the European Union.
The stability and strength of the union that joins England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland has been at the forefront of my Government’s agenda. Preserving and promoting the social, economic and cultural bonds that unite this nation remains of the utmost importance to my Government. My Government continues to work to ensure that locally-accountable politicians can take decisions in Northern Ireland at the earliest opportunity.
It has been an enduring focus of my Government to strengthen the economy to support the creation of jobs and to generate the tax revenues needed to invest in the National Health Service, schools and other public services. Improving public finances, while keeping taxes low, has been a priority for my Government. Legislation passed this session has provided one hundred percent relief from business rates for agricultural nurseries and, for a period of five years from April 2017, properties used for the purpose of new fibre infrastructure.
My Government has set out a programme of work to improve productivity and help businesses create high quality, well paid jobs across the United Kingdom. In 2019, more than a million workers benefited from the largest increase to the National Living Wage since it was first introduced. My ministers have worked to attract investment in infrastructure to support economic growth. Legislation has been passed to ensure that the United Kingdom remains a world leader in new industries, including electric cars and commercial satellites.
My Government has continued to support international action against climate change, including implementation of the Paris Agreement. Recognising the need for bold steps to protect the planet, a commitment to reach net zero carbon emissions by 2050 was enshrined in law, making the United Kingdom the first major economy to do so.
Draft legislation was published which will establish a new body to ensure the United Kingdom’s high environmental standards are maintained and to protect and improve the environment for future generations. My Government has legislated to protect animals, including bans on the sale of ivory, puppies and kittens by commercial third parties and the use of wild animals in travelling circuses in England.
Voyeurism offences have been recognised as the crimes that they are and legislation has been passed to ensure the courts have powers to take swift action to protect children who are identified as at risk of female genital mutilation.
In presenting the long-term plan for the National Health Service in England, my Government strengthened its commitment to ensuring there is a world-class health system that supports everyone from birth, through the challenges that life brings, and into old age. My Government is committed to ensuring mental health support is available to all who need it and to protecting the fundamental human rights of the most vulnerable in society. Legislation enacted this session will increase access to protections and put in place robust safeguards for those who are deprived of their liberty.
In recognition of the need to make renting fairer and more affordable, and to promote fairness and transparency in the housing market, legislation has been enacted to reduce costs at the outset of, and throughout a tenancy, by banning most letting fees paid by tenants in England.
My Government has taken steps to ensure fairer markets and to protect consumers from unfair practices and financial losses. Legislation has been passed to ensure people have access to free and impartial financial guidance and debt advice and to introduce a ban on nuisance calls in relation to pensions. Measures have been enacted to reduce insurance costs for motorists by tackling the high number and cost of whiplash claims.
The security of the nation and its citizens remains of the highest importance to my Government. In this session, legislation has been passed to ensure the police and security services have the powers they need to keep the population safe in the face of evolving threats of terrorism.
Legislation passed this session marks a significant step towards my Government’s commitment to tackle serious violence on the streets of the United Kingdom. Laws are now in place to prevent young people from purchasing dangerous weapons and to prosecute those who possess such items, or sell them without imposing rigorous age verification.
The defence of the Realm remains an utmost priority for my Government, which it has supported through investment in our gallant Armed Forces.
As a leading member of the international coalition against Daesh, the United Kingdom played a critical role in the military defeat of Daesh’s so-called caliphate in March of this year. While the Middle East continues to suffer from serious conflict, my Government has played a leading role in de-escalating regional tensions. My Government has also played a key role in international efforts to protect the United Kingdom and its allies from hostile threats, including in response to the chemical weapon attack in Salisbury.
As a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council, my Government has provided political and diplomatic support to peace efforts in Yemen, Libya and Syria, as well as mitigating the human cost of these tragedies through the provision of substantial humanitarian assistance.
Prince Philip and I were pleased to welcome Their Majesties King Felipe and Queen Letizia of Spain and we also welcomed King Willem-Alexander and Queen Maxima of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, and the President and First Lady of the United States of America, on State Visits.
Prince Charles and I were delighted to attend a national commemorative event to honour and remember the heroism, courage and sacrifice of the many servicemen and women who participated in the D-Day Landings.
Members of the House of Commons
I thank you for the provisions which you have made for the work and dignity of the Crown and for the public services.
My Lords and Members of the House of Commons
I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may rest upon your counsels.
Mr Speaker
The Commission was also for proroguing this present Parliament, and the Lord President said:
“My Lords and Members of the House of Commons:
By virtue of Her Majesty’s Commission which has now been read, we do, in Her Majesty’s name, and in obedience to Her Majesty’s Commands, prorogue this Parliament to Monday the fourteenth day of this October to be then here holden, and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to Monday the fourteenth day of October.”
House adjourned (Speaker’s statement, 25 September 2019).
Draft Statutory Auditors, Third Country Auditors and International Accounting Standards (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
(5 years, 2 months ago)
General CommitteesRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Committee divided: - Ayes: 9 / Noes: 8 - Question accordingly agreed to.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Kelly Tolhurst)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Statutory Auditors, Third Country Auditors and International Accounting Standards (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Sharma. Since the UK’s 2016 referendum decision to leave the EU, the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy has undertaken a significant amount of work preparing for a range of potential outcomes. The best outcome is for the UK to leave with a deal, and we continue to put forward serious and credible proposals for that. Although we remain confident, we must and will continue the work of preparing for no deal.
The Committee may be aware that around the turn of the year I laid regulations before Parliament to address deficiencies arising from the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union in the fields of accounting and audit. They did not implement new policy but did grant new powers and responsibilities to the Secretary of State and the Financial Reporting Council. Continuing that process requires further regulations now. Although the fundamental elements of current UK accounting and audit regulation will remain the same after exit, legislation has had to be amended to ensure its effective working once the UK has left the EU.
The accounting and audit directives set out the requirements on the accounts and audit of most incorporated businesses, as well as a framework of standards. The directives also set out the responsibilities of the competent authorities for accounting and audit. Meanwhile, under the EU’s international financial reporting standards regulation, standards are set for accounting by parent companies of groups, which apply if those companies issue shares that are admitted to trading on regulated markets. Another regulation—the audit regulation—sets additional requirements on the statutory audit of those businesses defined as public interest entities: banks, building societies, insurers and issuers of shares or debt securities on regulated markets.
To the extent that those EU regulations are not repealed, they form part of retained EU law under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. Our aim is to ensure that the framework for accounting and audit regulation works effectively following the UK’s withdrawal from the EU, and the regulations take further steps to help facilitate that.
Under the audit directive, the European Commission has powers to grant equivalence to third countries for their audit regulatory framework, and adequacy to third countries’ competent authorities for their framework on audit regulatory co-operation. These measures facilitate international trade and investment. The Statutory Auditors and Third Country Auditors (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 transferred those powers to the Secretary of State and provided powers to set out the criteria and procedure for assessment, equivalence or adequacy status decisions in the future, which will be granted by regulations under the negative procedure. These regulations ensure that, irrespective of whether a withdrawal agreement is reached, the Secretary of State can make regulations after our exit from the EU to set out the framework for future assessment of equivalence and adequacy by the UK regulator. They will also enable us to grant equivalence and adequacy status to some third countries that have had their applications under consideration in the EU since March of this year.
The regulations also complete the process of extending powers to the Financial Reporting Council—the UK’s competent authority—making the final consequential amendments needed to extend the FRC’s ability to regulate third-country auditors to include European economic area auditors and Gibraltarian auditors. They also put beyond doubt that those EEA auditors who have already registered as statutory auditors in the UK will retain their status after exit.
The regulations also make an important change to the audit exemption framework. In common with the exemptions in the accounting framework for subsidiaries, the subsidiary audit exemption will not be available unless a subsidiary has a UK parent. This instrument corrects an error in the previous audit SI affecting the frequency of audit inspections required for auditors of public interest entities.
On accounting standards, the instrument revokes some EU regulations relating to the adoption or amendment of the IFRS within the EU. Without revocation, the regulations would be brought into domestic law by the EU (Withdrawal) Act. However, the International Accounting Standards and European Public Limited-Liability Company (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 have already made provision for what will be the international accounting standards for the UK at exit day. The revocations remove any duplication and potential confusion. They also reflect changes in EU adopted international accounting standards issued or identified since the earlier accounting SIs were made.
The Government have carried out a de minimis impact assessment of the instruments as the overall costs to business are expected to be small. It confirmed that the additional impact on business of the changes in the SI is a cost of approximately £930,000, which derives from the amendment to the subsidiaries audit exemption. Only limited sectors are affected by each of the changes. Such limited impact is counterbalanced by what was actually an overall beneficial effect of the changes in the first audit EU exit SI, which was assessed as saving businesses approximately £2.96 million per year.
In conclusion, the regulations aim, wherever possible, to provide continuity for businesses operating in the audit sector and to ensure that UK companies continue to benefit from global trade and investment. If the UK leaves the EU without an agreement, the measures contained within the regulations will be critical in ensuring that the audit regulatory framework in the UK works effectively. I therefore commend the draft regulations to the Committee.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Sharma, and to make the most of this limited opportunity to sit in Parliament. Before I go into the SI, I could not help noticing that the Government still have a majority on this Committee. The Government have nine Members, and the Opposition only eight. I wonder why that is, because the Government have lost their majority in the House of Commons over the past few weeks. Will you confer with the Clerks, Mr Sharma, as to whether the Government should still have a majority on the Committee?
The Chair
I am advised that it is not up to this Committee; it is up to the Selection Committee. I am sure the message will go back to it for future consideration if the situation is the same.
Bill Esterson
Thank you for taking that point on board, Mr Sharma. I realise it was not a decision you could adjudicate on, but it is an important point because this is yet another example of how the Government operate and ignore the democracy of the House of Commons at every available turn. They should have arranged not to have a majority in this Committee. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for South East Cornwall can intervene and challenge me on that point if she does not agree, or if she thinks that a party that is 43 or 45 seats short of a majority—
Bill Esterson
Thank you, Mr Sharma.
Now, to the matter at hand. We are faced with regulations and, as ever, the Minister did her best to make them appear to be a matter of minor change, but the House of Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee said the
“range and magnitude of the changes are significant: the Regulations make changes to 15 items of legislation and include a sub-delegation of powers to UK regulators and extend a ministerial power of direction.”
The Minister did mention that.
Bill Esterson
Well, the Minister mentioned the ministerial power of direction; I am not sure that she spoke about just how far reaching the changes are. The Lords Committee expressed its
“concern about the scale of the challenge facing financial services firms in adjusting to these changes.”
Yet when we turn to paragraph 10 of the explanatory memorandum, we find that no consultation was carried out with the financial services sector on these far-reaching changes, which will affect financial services firms. Sadly, that problem has bedevilled such statutory instruments, more than a few of which the Minister and I have considered, including the one she mentioned.
There is also a link to the 2013 report from the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, which was chaired by members of the Minister’s own party. It was jointly chaired by a Member of the House of Commons—the then chair of the Treasury Committee, Andrew Tyrie—and a Member of the House of Lords. They found great concerns about the robustness of our audit regulations and called for wide-ranging changes. Those changes have not happened. The relevance of those points centres on the scandals surrounding companies the collapse of which related to a lack of audit, such as British Home Stores, Patisserie Valerie and Carillion.
The link to the regulations is important, because the Government are proposing to adopt the IFRS system, which is run by a private entity in Delaware in the United States and overseen by the European Commission. I wonder how the Government propose to accept arrangements whereby, once we have left the European Union, the European Commission will have oversight of our financial reporting standards. The Government are making a major change to those standards, tacked on to the regulations. Such a significant change clearly should be fully scrutinised, should have been the subject of consultation, and is very difficult for us to support.
I did some consultation of my own. I asked the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales for its assessment of the regulations. It confirmed the concerns I have just outlined regarding the Government’s proposed elimination of the exemption for EU companies with a UK-based subsidiary. It wants the Government to say what the timescales will be, because it is not clear from the regulations.
Beyond those concerns from the ICAEW, the proposed amendment is not just minor or technical. The controversies that I mentioned regarding audit mean that if such changes are to be made, they should be subject to much wider consideration. The consideration recommended by the 2013 report from the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards gives us a good place to start.
There are some significant concerns about the proposed changes, which are significant changes. It is simply not the case, as far as I can see from the commentary that I have received, that there will be no significant impact on the private, voluntary or public sectors. The lack of an impact assessment yet again is concerning. The Minister will no doubt say that the Government are preparing responsibly for Brexit, with or without a deal, but I am afraid that the lack of an impact assessment, the lack of consultation and the way in which standards have been tacked on to a set of regulations that are actually of a very different nature show that today’s statutory instrument should not have been introduced in its present form. For those reasons, we will oppose the regulations.
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)
I am pleased to make a brief contribution. In the Chamber, several hon. Members are still paying tribute to the Speaker; shortly, there will be an application for an emergency debate to force the Government to come clean about what on earth is going on with Prorogation and much else; later, there will be another attempt to force a general election. In Westminster Hall, our colleagues are debating a petition that was possibly the quickest ever to reach more than 1 million signatures. We—the lucky few—are here talking about the Statutory Auditors, Third Country Auditors and International Accounting Standards (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019. These regulations will not be the news headlines tonight, but perhaps they should be.
If we get this wrong—I think the Government are still getting it wrong on their second attempt—the consequences will be catastrophic for businesses, homes, jobs and the suppliers of big companies. That is why it is important for us to get it right this time. Part of the reason that we are discussing these regulations is that we did not get them right last time, because everything had to be done in such a panic-stricken rush that they were not as watertight as legislation needs to be. We should have been out of the European Union five months ago. We would have been out six months ago without a deal, if some hon. Members on the Government Benches had had their way. Even on such fundamental questions as who regulates those who regulate the conduct and misconduct of multinational businesses, however, we have still not got it right.
As the hon. Member for Sefton Central mentioned, auditors tend to be anonymous most of the time, but when we look at the causes of almost all the huge corporate failures, of which Carillion is perhaps the most recent mega-failure, there are always big questions to be asked about why the auditors did not do something and how they could not have noticed. I should mention that although I am a qualified member of the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy, which may be why I was given the privilege of coming here this afternoon, I am not qualified to conduct statutory company audits, so I do not have an interest to declare.
As well as the questions that always come up about what the auditors were doing, the inquiry almost always concludes, although it is not inevitable, that the auditors did not break any rules at the time. We have had to completely review—realign, reset and turn inside out—the structure of the institutions that regulate statutory auditors and their profession a number of times. Try as we might, we will always struggle to keep up with the multinational chancers who look for every minor loophole in any regulation to allow their misconduct to go undetected for as long as possible—and often unpunished forever.
It is therefore important to get it right this time. The hon. Member for Sefton Central highlighted some of the concerns. When there are a lot of statutory instruments to get through, there is a danger that among some relatively minor consequential technical stuff that nobody could object to, significant changes to Government policy and to legislation are slipped in, in terms that should be brought as specific items for the whole House to consider, rather than in Committee on the upper corridors of the House of Commons on a wet Monday afternoon. I understand that quite a lot of what is in the regulations needed to be put in there, but the Committee needs to say to the Government that it cannot accept the regulations as they are.
Luke Graham (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Con)
I am a member of the Chartered Institute of Management Accountants. I am on the Committee and I am happy to dig into the detail, but I am not getting detail from Opposition Members, although I am hearing opposition from them. The hon. Gentleman says that there are things in the regulations to be worried about; perhaps he could outline them for us, as is the purpose of the Committee, point by point and subsection by subsection. I am happy to sit here and go through it. We have other business in the House of Commons, but as he rightly points out, this is an enormously important issue for the whole United Kingdom—it applies to the whole United Kingdom—for my constituents and for the businesses they are in. I ask him to please outline the details, so we can go through them together in a cross-party way.
Peter Grant
The hon. Gentleman agrees with some of the points I am making. As he helpfully points out, if Government Members were all that interested in going through the regulations in fine detail, perhaps they should have asked professionals in the various accounting and auditing institutions before the Committee. I have no doubt that Government Members will rise to speak in support of the regulations. When they do so, perhaps they will tell the Committee what could have gone disastrously wrong if they had taken the time to get the policy right on their third attempt, and asked the statutory accounting and audit bodies what the regulations would do.
Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could help me by telling us, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ochil and South Perthshire asked him to do, which specific parts of the regulations he objects to.
Peter Grant
It has already been pointed out. As I said, if there has not been consultation with the bodies whose purpose it is to regulate the profession, why would the Government ask a group of lay people to agree the regulations?
Peter Grant
No, I will not give way again. The hon. Lady will get a chance to speak if she wishes. I would be interested to know why the Government did not have that consultation. Why are they making significant changes to policy during a process that the House agreed could be used to make technical, consequential, minor and non-controversial changes, of which there would need to be millions to get us even vaguely ready for 31 October? Why are they trying to put in much more significant and substantive changes that should have been tested on the Floor of the House before they passed into law?
Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Peter Grant
I can see that lots of Members want to speak, so perhaps the best thing is for me to sit down and give them a chance to do so.
Kelly Tolhurst
I thank the hon. Member for Sefton Central for his comments, but I must pick him up on one point. He questioned whether the Government respect democracy. We have sat across from each other numerous times in Committees this year, and I point out to him that respecting democracy is exactly what we are doing. The regulations ensure we are fit and ready for when we exit the European Union. That is respecting democracy and the 2016 democratic vote. I need to point that out, and it is exactly why my Department has been doing the work that is required for us to ensure that we are fit and ready to leave with or without a deal.
I remind the Committee that the regulations are part of what will enable us to ensure that the EU retained law that comes into UK law is fit and proper for when we leave the European Union. We are ensuring that we can communicate that to business, and that the current laws will continue to operate correctly in the UK. As the hon. Member for Glenrothes pointed out, the limitations in the withdrawal agreement set out what the Government can do when bringing secondary legislation through the House. He will note that the only change in the regulations is to ensure the smooth and effective running of regulatory systems when we leave.
Members also commented on the quality of audit and on their concerns about the performance of some UK companies. As the hon. Member for Sefton Central will know, we had the Sir John Kingman review of the Financial Reporting Council, and the Government are working through that and consulting where possible to make modifications and changes within the FRC. That ongoing piece of work by Government is not necessarily completely related to these regulations.
The hon. Gentleman will know that the IFRS is a high-quality, internationally accepted and supported set of financial reporting standards that is regarded as a benchmark throughout the world by listed companies.
Peter Grant
The Minister seems, rightly, to be recognising the importance of that organisation of experts. Why will the Government not listen to other organisations of experts in their consideration of the Brexit proposals?
Kelly Tolhurst
I am here to speak to the regulations that are in front of us. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the experts in the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, as well as our stakeholders and partners across the sectors, have been spoken to. I challenge him to name the organisations that I have ignored or chosen not to speak to.
Peter Grant
The Minister will be aware that there are six recognised chartered accounting bodies in the United Kingdom. Can she name the ones that were consulted over these regulations, or is she saying that those organisations are not experts?
Kelly Tolhurst
As part of our ongoing engagement with stakeholders across all the Department’s responsibilities, we have regular dialogue with those organisations, whether it be on this statutory instrument or on any of the Department’s other business.
Sir Oliver Heald
Is it not correct to say that the hon. Member for Glenrothes has not pointed in detail to a single complaint about these regulations, and his speech is just a general waffle? Does my hon. Friend agree that as the Scottish National party receives £1.2 million in Short money to do research on things like this, we should have a rebate?
Kelly Tolhurst
My right hon. and learned Friend is quite right. The hon. Member for Glenrothes has not mentioned the particular point that we have made more expressive, as the ICAEW asked us to do, in these amended regulations. That is a clear example of where we have listened to the professionals in the industry and chosen to respond to their requests as clearly as we can.
Luke Graham
I will perhaps try to articulate some of the points that the hon. Member for Glenrothes was trying to make. The regulations are designed to ensure that international accounting standards are still operational in the UK on EU exit day, incorporating the aspects of EU law that we are meant to incorporate. Essentially, the regulations fill in the gaps.
I ask my hon. Friend two things. First, if she does not have it with her today, will she make available the gap analysis that the Department undertook—between the IFRS, the IAS and the UK generally accepted accounting practice—to make sure that there are no gaps, and that the regulations are sufficient to satisfy all the professional bodies around the UK?
Secondly, has there been consultation with the International Accounting Standards Board, which is the governing body for IFRS? My hon. Friend is quite right to say that bodies in the UK have been consulted; it has been made explicit that the ICAEW has been consulted. It would be good to know whether the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland has also been consulted, because, as a United Kingdom, we have a united internal market.
I would be quite happy to receive the answers to those questions as a follow-up, because I know that there is a lot of detail in the regulations. Opposition Members have completely failed to raise specific points that constitute a substantive opposition to this statutory instrument.
Kelly Tolhurst
I will happily provide my hon. Friend with any advice that we have available. I point out to hon. Members that these regulations constitute an amendment to, and an extension of, the statutory instrument that was laid before and passed by this House at the beginning of the year. They particularly focus, as I outlined in my opening speech, on aspects to do with subsidiaries. They also correct an omission of three words, which it was important to do to ensure that the regulations expressed the true intention behind the original statutory instrument.
I emphasise that as part of the Department’s role in preparing for EU exit and making sure that we are in the best possible place to leave the European Union, with or without a deal, we have engaged continuously with stakeholders. Quite rightly, as Ministers, we have challenged our officials within the Department and our stakeholders, when we have had the opportunity to do so.
Bill Esterson
That is interesting, because I have a briefing note from the ICAEW here. It raises concerns, which I went through earlier, about regulation 4, on the loss of EEA subsidiary exemption, and regulation 6, on EEA qualification for auditors; I did not spend as long on that earlier. I mentioned some other concerns that had been raised with me by professional bodies. It does not seem, from anything that the Minister has said, as though she has had those discussions with the ICAEW. It does not seem to me as though she has had that note from the ICAEW, or those concerns have been raised with her. Perhaps she could clarify the situation for me. Did she receive those concerns from the ICAEW before this meeting?
Kelly Tolhurst
I can confirm that officials in the Department have been speaking to the ICAEW. As I outlined in my response to my hon. Friend the Member for Ochil and South Perthshire, we have made something explicit in these regulations on the back of our conversations with the ICAEW. Those conversations are ongoing and will continue, as I laid out in my opening speech, because we are to bring forward the assessment framework in a further statutory instrument.
The hon. Member for Sefton Central asked how we would cope with the fact that the European Commission was no longer making these opinions or decisions. The statutory instruments that we have made give these powers to the Secretary of State, thereby enabling parliamentary scrutiny of decisions and the ability to delegate responsibilities.
The hon. Gentleman is quite right that we have had many conversations about impact assessments in our debates on statutory instruments as part of the EU exit programme. He will notice that a de minimis assessment took place, because the level of impact was below £5 million. As I outlined in my opening remarks, the overall benefit from the statutory instruments will be a reduction of £2 million per year.
The hon. Member for Glenrothes asked why we are bringing this forward now, and why we did not do it in the original statutory instrument earlier in the year. The regulations before us were not needed for exit day, but because we have had the opportunity to extend our leaving date to 31 October, we have been able to consider them prior to exit day.
As the UK exits the EU, we are committed to maintaining the integrity of the UK system for regulatory oversight of audit. The regulations contribute to that by clarifying and building on the approach to oversight of the audit profession following our withdrawal from the EU that we began to set out in the original regulations at the start of the year. Like those regulations, this statutory instrument does not introduce a change in policy, as I have explained. The fundamental elements of the current statutory audit legislation will remain the same after exit. These regulations make only a small number of further amendments that are necessary to ensure that audit legislation remains operable in the UK following our withdrawal from the EU.
The regulations will mean that the UK system for regulatory oversight remains coherent and understandable, and they will enable us to do more on this over the coming months, irrespective of the outcome of the EU exit negotiations. I regret that the Opposition have decided that they are not prepared to support the regulations, which would give business and stakeholders consistency and clarity about how the market will work as we leave the European Union. I commend the regulations to the Committee.
Question put.
Draft Financial Services (Miscellaneous) (Amendment) (EU Exit) (No. 3) Regulations 2019
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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The Committee divided: - Ayes: 9 / Noes: 8 - Question accordingly agreed to.
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Financial Services (Miscellaneous) (Amendment) (EU Exit) (No. 3) Regulations 2019.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship once again, Sir Edward. The Government previously made all the necessary legislation under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 to ensure that, in the event of a no-deal exit on 29 March 2019, there would have been a functioning legal and regulatory regime for financial services from exit day. Following the extension to the article 50 process, the Treasury has used the additional time to review existing EU legislation, in line with the Government’s commitment to take all necessary steps to ensure our regime remains prepared for exit.
The statutory instrument fixes deficiencies in new EU legislation that will become part of UK law at exit on 31 October and amends some EU exit provisions that have been made already to account for the extension. The review identified a number of minor errors in earlier EU exit instruments, which are corrected in this SI. I note that the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s report on 25 July highlighted this SI as an “instrument of interest” for what it called the “range and magnitude” of changes it makes. The Committee also expressed concern about the scale of the challenge facing financial services firms in adjusting to the changes being made to financial services legislation generally.
Although the SI amends 15 pieces of legislation, the number of amendments is modest and the nature of the amendments is minor. They follow the same approach to fixing deficiencies in EU legislation as approved by Parliament in previous financial services EU exit SIs. They do not change policy or alter requirements on firms. The SLSC is right to raise the challenge that financial services firms will face in adjusting to changes introduced by exit legislation, but I can reassure the Committee that minimising this challenge for industry has been central to the onshoring project from the beginning.
Under other SIs approved by Parliament, the Treasury has introduced a variety of measures to smooth the transition for businesses in adjusting to changes in EU exit legislation, and to changed circumstances generally. Those measures include a range of temporary permissions and transitional regimes for European economic area firms and funds. Parliament has also granted the UK financial services regulators powers to phase in requirements that change as a result of EU exit legislation, giving firms the time they need to adjust in an orderly way. The regulators have consulted on their approach to phasing in these requirements, which involves broad use of their transitional powers, and have received a very positive response from the industry. We have also engaged with the industry on the development of all our SIs, to give it as much time as possible to become familiar with the legislation. Given the minor and technical nature of the amendments in this SI, I will not cover every provision in my opening remarks, but I am happy to take questions on any of the individual provisions.
The provisions in the SI cover three broad areas. First, the instrument amends a number of pieces of EU legislation that have become applicable in the period since the article 50 extension and will therefore form part of UK law on exit day, but that are not substantive enough to warrant separate additional instruments. For example, the European Commission recently introduced measures to further promote the use of small and medium-sized enterprise growth markets. Those trading platforms are subject to more proportionate regulation, making it easier for SMEs to raise finance. The SI makes minor amendments to the Markets in Financial Instruments (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018, to fix deficiencies in the new EU legislation and ensure it continues to function in UK law after exit. Following the approach approved by Parliament in previous financial services exit SIs, this SI gives UK regulators the job of fixing deficiencies in the new technical standards that have been adopted by the EU since 29 March.
Secondly, the SI amends existing EU exit legislation that is required to take account of the article 50 extension process. For example, the instrument makes a change to the Solvency 2 and Insurance (Amendment, etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 by amending the date from which the Prudential Regulation Authority will be obliged to publish certain technical information that insurance and reinsurance firms must use to value their liabilities. Previously, the PRA had been required to begin publishing this information from 10 April 2019. The SI amends that date, so that the obligation on the PRA does not commence until an appropriate date after the UK has left the EU.
Finally, I will address the corrections that this instrument makes to earlier EU exit SIs. All the legislation laid under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 has gone through the normal rigorous checking procedures. However, as with any legislation, errors are made from time to time and it is important that they are corrected. Previously, when we found errors in financial services onshoring SIs, we sought Parliament’s approval to correct them as soon as possible, and we are doing the same now.
Although it is always regrettable when errors in legislation are made, it is important to keep them in perspective. The financial services onshoring effort has been an unprecedented legislative challenge for the Treasury, involving 53 SIs that make amendments to more than 500 pieces of EU and UK financial services legislation. These SIs have been positively received—indeed welcomed—by the regulators and industry, and they have provided reassurance that the UK financial services regime will continue to operate effectively from day one after exit day. In that context, the errors that we are seeking to correct are extremely minor and very small in number.
For example, the SI makes an amendment to the Criminal Justice Act 1993 to ensure that UK individuals trading financial instruments in the European economic area or Gibraltar are not guilty of insider dealing, which is a criminal offence, if they are compliant with the market abuse regime as it applies in those territories. This is not changing the criminal offence of insider dealing, but ensuring that the scope of the offence remains the same and operates effectively in UK law after exit.
As I explained in my opening remarks, the Treasury and Parliament have already completed the vast bulk of the legislative work that is necessary to ensure that our financial services regulatory regime is ready for exit. However, in line with this Government’s commitment, we continue to do all we can to ensure that our regime remains prepared. This SI makes additional fixes that will improve our state of readiness.
I know that regulators and the industry support our effort to address every legislative deficiency, and the SI helps to reinforce the message that the Government and Parliament will not take any chances with the safe and effective operation of the UK’s regulatory regime. I hope that colleagues will join me in supporting these regulations, which I commend to the Committee.
Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)
It is always a pleasure, Sir Edward, to see you in the Chair.
We now know that this is one of the last chances the Opposition will have to be heard on the matter of a no-deal Brexit, given the Government’s decision to prorogue Parliament this evening. The Opposition’s concerns about our crashing out without a deal are well known. That is why we have spent the small amount of time available to us since the summer recess working hard across parties to prevent the Government from imposing that outcome on the UK.
What will also be well known to those who have served on such Committees before are the Opposition’s objections to the use of statutory instruments to prepare us for no deal through an opaque and rushed process. The Minister and I stood opposite each other in Committees considering dozens of instruments in the run-up to the original exit date in March 2019. Today, we stand closer to the cliff edge than ever before, with a Prime Minister who is seemingly prepared to sacrifice our economic stability and perhaps even the rule of law.
I believe that the instrument in front of us tonight, which is a patchwork of tidy-ups and corrections, shows that we were vindicated in our criticism of the Government’s approach. I am sorry to say that I do not believe the Government have always treated this process with the care and respect it demands. That is in no way a personal criticism of the Minister, who I think is one of the relatively few members of the Government who understands what is at stake, but it is a criticism of the Government as a whole. I say that because we now stand here looking at this legislation in a different way; we stand here on the cusp of no deal occurring, which the Government now believe is a perfectly acceptable outcome.
I just look at this SI and reflect that our country’s economy is 80% services and that our financial sector is the envy of much of the world. We are about to lose market access to all EU member states and, crucially, under no deal we will lose the good faith required to overcome that. That is 10% of the revenue from our most important sector. Although we all acknowledge that the single market in services is not what it could be, as Sir Ivan Rogers has repeatedly pointed out it is more integrated in the single market than it is, for instance, between different US states or between different Canadian provinces. Crucially, no deal will put us years away from correcting those problems in a trade deal.
However, the in-flight Bill was pulled at the last minute in March and has never returned to the Chamber. The then Financial Secretary to the Treasury even addressed the House that evening without addressing why. Does this statutory instrument correct that? I do not think it does. Now that the House is being prorogued, that Bill will surely fall, so how can the Government possibly argue that we are in a position to leave without a deal when there are such significant legislative gaps in our contingency plans?
It is not just the Opposition who have outlined these concerns. The House of Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee—I think the Minister mentioned it, but he perhaps undersold its criticism—said:
“These Regulations are the third time HM Treasury…has made changes to existing financial services legislation, and the Committee hopes that HM Treasury has not under-estimated the challenge which is posed to financial services firms in taking on board so many amendments to the core legislation for the sector…the range and magnitude of the changes are significant: the Regulations make changes to 15 items of legislation and include a sub-delegation of powers to UK regulators and extend a ministerial power of direction. The Committee reiterates its concern about the scale of the challenge facing financial services firms in adjusting to these changes.”
If this statutory instrument is being discussed tonight, with mere hours to go before Parliament is suspended, how can the proper consultation have taken place with the financial services sector? As the Lords Committee noted, there is a significant extension of ministerial power, which bestows on the Treasury the power to grant MiFIR—markets in financial instruments regulation—exemptions to EEA central banks. It has to be alarming that this is suddenly being swept in at the last moment. Why, Minister, has it not been addressed before now?
What other omissions will there be? One stakeholder has already raised with us the fact that neither the statutory instrument that establishes the temporary permissions regime in relation to the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000, nor the statutory instrument in relation to the Electronic Money Regulations 2011 and the Payment Services Regulations 2017 appears to apply to payment services provided by an EEA bank in the UK. “Regulated activities”, as referred to in the EEA passport rights regulations, do not include payment services. It therefore seems that there is no authorisation for that to continue, which will be enormously disruptive—unless the Minister can provide some assurances to the contrary today or perhaps in correspondence.
There is in this statutory instrument a whole list of items of retained EU law that are now irrelevant or surplus to requirements. My question remains: how are we only identifying those items now?
Therefore, the Opposition cannot support this statutory instrument today and will vote against it. We have argued against using secondary legislation in this manner since the no-deal process began, and this instrument serves to validate our criticism. The Opposition refuse to use the Government’s final few hours of parliamentary time before the undemocratic Prorogation of Parliament to further enable any no-deal scenario. We will do everything in our power to prevent such a disastrous outcome, which we believe would be so damaging to the UK’s core national interests.
Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Sir Edward.
I agree very much with the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde. This is chaos. It should not be happening that we are in this room again, with hours to go before Parliament is prorogued, to correct mistakes that we were assured would already have been picked up. The last time that we were in this room discussing similar business, the Minister said, “Oh, these things happen. Errors happen when drafting legislation,” yet here we are again, closer and closer still to another Brexit deadline, with a raft of things that the Government have not got quite right. How were these errors identified? Is it just that the Treasury had slightly more time to mark its own homework, so it was able to go through the measures and find what it had previously missed, or were the errors brought to the Department’s attention by some other means? It would be interesting to know if they were picked up by external organisations, which realised that what had been put in front of them would not actually work or was not fit for purpose.
It is interesting to look at all these things. I am still not quite sure that we have seen the end of all the statutory instruments, with Prorogation coming up tonight. Hon. Members may not have been here for business questions on Thursday, when the hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) asked what would happen about statutory instruments, because they do not fall in the same way as legislation falls with Prorogation. The Leader of the House said:
“On the ability to leave on 31 October, all the legislation that is needed is in place. We have 580 statutory instruments to make sure it will all happen smoothly. That is all done. It is ready. It is prepared. Her Majesty’s Government have been a model of efficiency and efficacy in preparing this. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is perhaps one of the most impressive administrative Ministers this country has ever seen.”—[Official Report, 5 September 2019; Vol. 664, c. 394.]
But we have all these corrections—pages and pages of corrections to statutory instruments that the Minister has already laid and the House approved in good faith because we were told that it was the right and appropriate thing to do. Despite the Opposition’s protestations that we needed to look at them in greater detail, that we needed more time and that the process needed to be better, this is what we have. The Government cannot say that they were not warned.
To pick up just one concern, relating to the Markets in Financial Instruments (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018, this instrument would appear to suggest that the UK share trading obligations can be met through trades of UK systemic internalisers but not of EU systemic internalisers. Is there a risk of reduced regulation? My concern has always been that we cannot have less regulation as we come out of the EU. Since the financial crash, more regulation and more safety has been put in place in the system. We cannot end up with less robust systems in place in any of these areas.
The Minister talked about fixing deficiencies in new technical standards as they come from the EU. Perhaps he can tell us in a bit more detail what that process will look like. Will we forever be scrambling to catch up with the EU as we make regulations and become rule takers? I am sure all the Brexiteers in the room would rail against that. We will be trying to fix all these deficiencies in the desperate attempt to continue to have a functioning financial services industry in this country. We will continually be trailing behind the EU and trying to patch up our systems, rather than being the integral part of building the systems that we once were. That looks to me like how this will be.
Will the Minister give further detail about the PRA and an appropriate date? Does he have an appropriate date in mind. April was suggested in earlier drafts of the legislation, when we thought we would leave in March. What will the date be if there is a no-deal Brexit at the end of next month?
This whole process has been, as I think the Minister said previously, sub-optimal. It continues to be sub-optimal. We will rue some of the decisions we have come to. There is a huge financial services sector in Scotland—in Glasgow—that does a huge amount of skilled work and gives people good, high-quality jobs. If it is harder for those people in those jobs in Glasgow, Edinburgh and everywhere else to do the work they have so diligently been doing, it will be to the cost of all of us. I will do all I can to see that that does not happen.
Sir Robert Syms (Poole) (Con)
I have sat on many of these Committees. It is not unusual to have civil servants come forward because minor mistakes have been made, and the normal procedure in this type of Committee is to put them right, rather than to reject and vote against the instrument. The Treasury civil servants have done a really good job in difficult circumstances to onshore these regulations. They have used the opportunity of the extension, which I was against, to go back through the regulations to see whether they could be improved further. What we have today is the civil service acting in a sensible manner to see whether it can get things as right as possible.
It is highly irresponsible to vote against the instrument today. We may well end up with no deal at the end of October. I was under the impression that the financial services industry in Edinburgh is quite important to the Scottish economy, so I am surprised that the hon. Member for Glasgow Central is happy to vote against, leaving defective regulations in place. I support what the Government are doing. I think it is perfectly sensible, and I commend the Minister’s statement.
John Glen
I acknowledge the dissatisfaction of the hon. Members for Stalybridge and Hyde and for Glasgow Central with this process. As I have always stated when I bring these statutory instruments to the Committee, we have tried throughout to ensure that we are in the best possible state in the outcome of no deal. As my hon. Friend the Member for Poole rightly set out, my colleagues in the Treasury have used the time during the extension to address the elements that were deemed to be defective. We have worked with the regulators and industry and we are continually testing our exit preparations. Both industry and the regulators are reassured that only minor errors have come to light, and this process is about correcting those errors.
I will address the specific points raised by Opposition spokesmen. On the principle of amending so many pieces of legislation in one instrument, although the SI amends 15 pieces of legislation, the number of amendments is not high and their nature is minor. I have set out the categories, and the amendments are routine and minor deficiency fixes, which are required to ensure that the UK regulatory regime for financial services continues to be ready for exit. For that reason we brought them together in this single SI this afternoon.
The hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde raised the issue of legislative gaps in the contingency plans: for example, in the in-flight files. I assure him that the Government have ensured that all cliff-edge risks are addressed in exit legislation. There is now no immediate need for further in-flight files legislation. He also asked about the extension of ministerial direction and power. European central banks are exempt from EU regulations under the markets in financial instruments directive—MiFID. In the Equivalence Determinations for Financial Services and Miscellaneous Provisions (Amendment etc) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019, Parliament approved a power for Treasury Ministers to determine that the EU would be equivalent or exempt under the equivalence regimes that will form part of EU law at exit, including equivalence or exemption under MiFID. Because the agreement between the EU and the European economic area on the implementing of MiFID has not been fully ratified, any UK decision would not cover EEA central banks or Norway and Iceland, so this SI also ensures that the new EU MiFID equivalence decision for Singapore made by the Commission in April works as intended in UK law after exit.
The hon. Gentleman talked about the impact on and substantive challenge for industry. As I tried to outline in my opening remarks, minimising the challenge of adjustments to industry to the changes brought by these SIs has been central to the onshoring project. We engaged extremely closely with industry representatives, particularly CityUK as the convening body, and the regulators on the development of the SIs. We published on the website numerous SIs in advance of laying them, to give as much opportunity as possible for feedback and so that firms could become familiar with them. We also introduced a variety of measures to smooth the transition for business, including a range of temporary permissions and transitional regimes for EEA firms and funds; those measures have been approved by the House. Parliament also granted powers to the regulators to phase in requirements on firms, again to minimise disruption and to ensure that any adjustments would be carried out in an orderly way, and that has been hugely welcomed by industry.
The hon. Member for Glasgow Central raised the issue of longer term challenges. I recognise that there is urgent work to do to optimise the competitive positioning of financial services, which, as she rightly said, is a hugely important industry across the United Kingdom, but this SI is not concerned with that. The hon. Gentleman made a point about the authorisation of payment services firms. Firms that enter the temporary permissions regime will be able to continue to provide the full range of services that they do now. That is the purpose of the scheme. On the hon. Lady’s point about how we will update legislation in the future, the aim of the onshoring legislation has always been to ensure that we have a functioning regime in all scenarios. Onshoring is designed to provide continuity and minimise disruption at exit, as well as to provide for Government and Parliament to design a regulatory framework fit for the future, and that remains the case. The Treasury introduced a call for evidence document on 19 July. It set out the context for a long-term review of the regulatory framework and the key issues that we will need to consider for a regime that operates outside the EU. The call for evidence closes on 18 October, and we will report back on that.
On the PRA and the appropriate date, I sought to make the point that we moved the date from 10 April because that related to the previous exit point. The PRA will publish the dates in due course, based on the date on which we leave the EU, which is yet to be determined.
I hope that the additional measures and corrections in the instrument will ensure that the UK’s financial services regulatory regime remains prepared for withdrawal from the EU in any scenario. I hope that I have responded adequately to the points raised and that the Committee will support the regulations.
Question put.
Ministerial Corrections
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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Transport
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
Will the Government widen this review not just to their complete lack of grip on the HS2 project, but to the continued failure of the Department to remember that there are towns as well as cities in this country? It is continually locking billions of pounds into ever-delayed, ever-escalating projects for cities, while towns such as Castleford and Pontefract have inadequate trains—overcrowded, old Pacer trains, with no disabled access to our trains—and, once again, we are just expected to accept a trickle-down of benefits many decades into the future. It is not good enough. When will we actually get a fair deal for our towns?
Grant Shapps
As the representative of two towns—one, Welwyn Garden, calls itself a city, but it is actually a town—I absolutely agree with the idea that towns have a significant part to play in the economic and social life of our country. One good piece of news: those Pacers are finally going by the end of this year.
[Official Report, 5 September 2019, Vol. 664, c. 357-8.]
Letter of correction from the Secretary of State for Transport:
An error has been identified in the answer I gave to the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper).
The correct answer should have been:
Grant Shapps
As the representative of two towns—one, Welwyn Garden, calls itself a city, but it is actually a town—I absolutely agree with the idea that towns have a significant part to play in the economic and social life of our country. One good piece of news: most of those Pacers are finally going by the end of this year.
Justice
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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Chris Ruane
Many hon. Members mentioned the £80 million that was raised through the sale of Holloway. That huge sum of money could transform the number of women going into prisons across the United Kingdom. That would save the Government money in the end, too, so it would be a win-win situation. Will the Minister say something about that before he concludes?
Robert Buckland
I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for reminding me about that. As the Prisons Minister, I am responsible for a very large estate, and it would be difficult to hypothecate that money in the way that hon. Members desire. Having said that, some of the funds that were raised have provided a women’s centre there, and the money is being ploughed back into the estate anyway. It is being used to make our prison estate safer, more decent and much better. It is difficult to hypothecate that money purely for these particular purposes.
[Official Report, 24 July 2019, Vol. 663, c. 635WH.]
Letter of correction from the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice, the right hon. and learned Member for South Swindon (Robert Buckland):
An error has been identified in the response I made, as the then Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, to the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane). The correct answer should have been:
Robert Buckland
I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for reminding me about that. As the Prisons Minister, I am responsible for a very large estate, and it would be difficult to hypothecate that money in the way that hon. Members desire. Having said that, the purchasers intend including a women’s centre as part of their development site, and the money is being ploughed back into the estate anyway. It is being used to make our prison estate safer, more decent and much better. It is difficult to hypothecate that money purely for these particular purposes.
Petitions
Windsor Gate development, High Wycombe
Postmasters' pay
Education Funding
Westminster Hall
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
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Prorogation of Parliament
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Paul Scully (Sutton and Cheam) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered e-petitions 269157 and 237487 relating to the prorogation of Parliament.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ryan. I will read the wording of both petitions into the official record. The first petition is titled, “Do not prorogue Parliament”, and states:
“Parliament must not be prorogued or dissolved unless and until the Article 50 period has been sufficiently extended or the UK’s intention to withdraw from the EU has been cancelled.”
That petition received 1,721,119 signatures within a very short space of time. The second petition, which has already closed, is titled, “The Prime Minister should advise Her Majesty the Queen to prorogue Parliament”, and says:
“The Prime Minister should advise Her Majesty the Queen to prorogue Parliament suspending the current parliamentary session until 2nd April 2019”—
that is clearly out of date now—
“to prevent any attempts by parliamentarians to thwart Brexit on 29th March 2019. Preparations for no-deal/WTO will continue. The Prime Minister’s deal has been rejected. No further deal is available from the EU. Remaining in the EU is not an option. Extension or revocation of Article 50 is not an option. I believe the British people voted to leave with no mention of a deal and that WTO rules, to which Britain will default on 29th March 2019, are in Britain’s best interests. We may get a better deal after, but not until, we have left.”
As I said, the second petition is out of date; events were moving so quickly at the time that it was difficult to schedule a debate on it and to keep it topical. Naturally, with the Prorogation of Parliament upon us tonight, as I believe has been declared, it was deemed suitable to bring the two petitions together.
It is important that the Petitions Committee should always try to allow people to have their views aired. There is a reason why debates on petitions in Westminster Hall are some of the most read and watched debates: it is because we are talking about what people want us to talk about, rather than what we want to talk about. Unfortunately, or fortunately, the two coincide in this case. I have noticed that over the last three years we have wanted to talk about Brexit quite a lot; and because of the topicality of the issue, and because the Prime Minister has been clear that we will leave the EU by 31 October, come what may, people want to express their opinion, whether they want to stop no deal or stop Brexit in its entirety. It is important that we discuss that in the House of Commons.
There is a clear reason why Prorogation is a sensible idea. The Prime Minister was elected by members of the Conservative party, and people have asked what his domestic agenda will be. It is therefore right that we debate the wider domestic agenda, as well as Brexit, in this place. That can be done through a Queen’s Speech, in which the Prime Minister can set out clearly what he wants to do in the coming year, in a new Session of Parliament, to move the debate on, move Parliament on, and move the bandwidth of the media away from Brexit as we leave on 31 October.
Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab)
I thank my London colleague for giving way. Does he believe that 100,000 votes from Tory party members is enough of a mandate for making such important decisions?
Paul Scully
I will come back to the question of mandate, because in about five hours the Prime Minister will ask Members to vote for a general election. We have all said that we do not want one at this time, because we want to get on with the job in hand, but at the moment, that is the best way not only to resolve the conundrum that we face in the lead-up to 31 October, but to move on and to show that there is a mandate for the domestic agenda.
Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con)
As ever, my hon. Friend is doing sterling work in presenting the petitions. The hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine West) mentioned the number of 100,000; he mentioned the number of 1.1 million—those people who signed the first petition. I have another number for him: 17,410,742. That is the number of people who voted to leave the EU, but due to parliamentary artifice, they are being denied that right.
Paul Scully
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I could not agree more, and I was one of those 17.4 million people. I understand that there are many facets to this complex argument, but we Members are charged with showing political leadership. For three years, we have talked about what we do not want; we have um-ed and ah-ed; we have had political shenanigans; and there have been games afoot. In the last few weeks—it seems a long time since the summer recess—the debate has been like the trash talk in a press conference ahead of a heavyweight boxing match, with people trying to win the fight before the first punch is thrown.
People clearly expect us to get on with the job and leave the EU, with or without a deal. By now, we should be talking about how, not whether, we will leave. The fact that we are still talking about whether we will leave, three years after the referendum, demonstrates the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Julian Knight) made: we cannot pick and choose the election results that we want to uphold, and 17.4 million people—the most people to have voted for anything in a British election—have charged us with leaving the EU.
Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op)
Do we not need to know whether we are leaving with or without a deal in order to understand what legislation will be required? How can we have a Queen’s Speech on 14 October, before the European Council, and how can we frame legislation when we do not know whether we are leaving with or without a deal?
Paul Scully
To be fair, I have allowed the last two interventions to distract me from the fact that the key purpose of a Queen’s Speech is to set out the domestic agenda—to talk about the 20,000 new police officers, and to ensure that people see the benefits of frontline funding for the NHS, levelling up funding for schools, and delivering full-fibre broadband across the country. However, as we ramp up preparation for no deal, we know exactly the kind of thing that we will need if we get a deal, although the deal that we are likely to get—if we get there—will be substantively different from the last withdrawal agreement. Also, we have been trying to pass legislation regarding no-deal preparations over the last few months.
Again, I am allowing myself to be distracted. We keep talking about deal or no deal, but actually we mean the withdrawal agreement; the deal is yet to come. We use the terms interchangeably. The deal, in terms of trade deals, is all about the future relationship with the EU, and we have not even got there yet. All we are talking about—I say “all”; of course it is complicated and significant—is how we physically leave the EU. Deciding what the trading relationship will look like will take time. One of my fundamental concerns—albeit from two and a half years ago, so it cannot be revisited—was accepting the sequencing that Michel Barnier and the EU put to us: that we had to get the divorce done before we could talk about the future relationship. It would have been far more sensible—this formed the basis of the Vote Leave campaign—to do both at the same time.
On the backstop, for example, instead of coming up with the convoluted system that has failed to get through this place so many times, it would have been far easier had we known what the ultimate trading relationship between Northern Ireland, in particular, and the Republic of Ireland would be. We would then have been able to work on solutions—alternative arrangements—not just in the last year, but in the last three years. That would have been a far better and more holistic approach to leaving.
Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth and Southam) (Con)
I agree with my hon. Friend that the public are keen for us to move on to the domestic agenda. Is it not the case, however, that we are talking about having a Queen’s Speech either in October, or in November, which would be after Brexit has taken place, given the Prime Minister’s determination to leave on 31 October? As my hon. Friend says, we may leave with no deal, and I agree that it would not be desirable or possible to take that off the table. Does Parliament not have an obligation to scrutinise the Government’s no-deal preparations, and should we not spend the five weeks during which we are to prorogue doing that, rather than anything else, including holding party conferences?
Paul Scully
My right hon. and learned Friend has a point in theory, but unfortunately only in theory. We have already cancelled two recesses, to the angst of several hon. Members, but what did we do during those sittings? We considered statutory instruments on the Floor of the House, because there was not enough business about Brexit coming from the Opposition. I remember walking around this place and seeing Opposition Members with their coats on, leaving early. If they had wanted to get involved in debates, and to add to the 500 or so hours of debate that we have had in this place about Brexit, they could have done so in those two weeks. They could also have cancelled summer recess, but clearly, that would have been a little too inconvenient.
Julian Knight
My hon. Friend inadvertently makes the case for a Queen’s Speech. In reality, the Government have been splitting up Bills to ensure that parliamentary time is used up. We need a new agenda, and a new raft of legislation to put before the House, so that people can see Parliament do something other than argue over and frustrate Brexit. That would restore their confidence in Parliament.
Paul Scully
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We already have the odd addition of this fortnight, which, when coupled with the five weeks of Prorogation, smacks of, “Look busy, the boss is watching.” We are scratching around trying to find something to do. I do not dismiss the fact that scrutiny of the Government’s legislation and action is important, but I caution that actions need to match words.
Dr David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op)
I have never known a Parliament where the business has collapsed so often, yet the Agriculture Bill, the Fisheries Bill and the Trade Bill all need to come back for Report and Third Reading, and to then go to the Lords. Where are those Bills? Why have they not come back? Why have we not used the time properly? It is quite disgraceful.
Paul Scully
The hon. Gentleman uses the word “disgraceful”; I have been in this place for only four years, but for three of them, I have sat here scratching my head, thinking, “I have some of the most intelligent people around me acting in the most stupid way.” I blame people on both sides of the argument equally; I am an equal opportunity critic. We should be talking about how we leave, not whether we leave.
Brexit is a big issue that divides parties, communities and families. None the less, we were asked a relatively simple question: do we leave or remain? Leave won, and it is not beyond the wit of man to give businesses, communities, EU nationals here and British citizens abroad the sense of certainty that they need and deserve. In the coming weeks, I hope that we move on and reach a resolution, so that we can get back to the domestic agenda that will be set out in the Queen’s Speech on 14 October.
We saw a lot of confected outrage, as the Leader of the House described it, when the Prorogation of Parliament was first discussed. People conflated two different sets of statements. When several Conservative leadership candidates said that it would not be good to prorogue Parliament to bring about Brexit, come what may, they were talking about a Prorogation that straddled 31 October, so that we would fall out of the EU without discussion. That is clearly not what is happening. The hashtag #StopTheCoup started to appear on Twitter and social media, but frankly, that would be the worst coup ever.
Parliament is coming back on 14 October, and on the week following that, we will debate the Queen’s Speech, which will no doubt involve Brexit, because that will clearly be a major part of it. We then have weeks after that, because a Brexit deal will come back to Parliament only if we get a deal on 18 October at the end of the EU Council. Hopefully, at that point we will achieve a deal and bring it back to this place; we can then discuss it. We will have something that we can all circle around, and that will allow us to say, “Nobody gets everything they want, but this is enough to allow us to say that we have respected the referendum, and to enable us to start looking at the opportunities that Brexit offers, rather than at whether we are leaving.”
Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)
This is a national crisis; it is not business as usual. We elected parliamentarians should be in this House debating all the crucial issues related to Brexit, not least of which is what the Government will come up with in relation to the Northern Ireland backstop; at the moment, it looks like the emperor’s new clothes. The hon. Gentleman’s argument that we should use the façade of a Queen’s Speech to introduce a new parliamentary agenda, while we have the big cloud of Brexit over our heads, is weak.
Paul Scully
I agree with the hon. Lady that this is a political crisis. It is grinding the country to a halt—certainly, to boredom. There is one way to sort it out. We can sit here contemplating our navels, or we can go out and speak to the people. We can have a general election, in which we can discuss Brexit and engage 70 million people, not just 650. To me, that is democracy in action.
Some hon. Members might say, “Let’s have a second referendum.” There are clearly issues with that. It took nine months to get the first one through this place and to hold it, and we would also have to decide on the question, and the electorate. Those issues, which would be hotly debated in this place, would have to be decided before we could even get to the referendum. People may say that the current situation creates uncertainty, but that option would perpetuate uncertainty. To those people who say, “The EU referendum caused division,” I say: why have another one?
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
A new argument has come forward. A number of parties have said that if there is a second referendum, they will honour the result only if people vote in a particular way. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that would completely undermine that referendum, and all future referendums?
Paul Scully
The hon. Gentleman has argued passionately in this place alongside me against a second referendum. I agree with everything he said, including about the referendum result being undermined.
I mentioned #StopTheCoup, and how bad a coup the Prorogation of Parliament would be. Instead, parliamentary games are being played by those on the other side of the argument. Parliament took control, and took parliamentary time away from the Government to pass the Benn Bill, which passed due to an amendment that was granted by the Speaker, who was frankly making it up as he went along. The right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) has told me that even he did not expect the amendment to be made that allowed him to lay the path for Parliament to take the business away from the Government.
Martin Whitfield (East Lothian) (Lab)
On the question of a referendum, would the hon. Gentleman have a similar concern about a confirmatory referendum? As was the case with the Good Friday agreement, people would be empowered to show their acquiescence with a result that could become law. Hon. Members in this place who seek to disagree with that result are 650 votes, 350 votes, or one vote among the entire electorate.
Paul Scully
I come back to the point that any referendum, confirmatory or otherwise, takes time. We are trying to leave the EU so that we can get on to the next stage of this debate, which we have been having for three years. I am not entirely sure that a confirmatory referendum would resolve anything, although it is a step up from the so-called people’s vote—frankly, we have already had a people’s vote; this would be a second people’s vote.
Julian Knight
A perverse situation would arise from a confirmatory referendum: it would almost predicate us getting a very bad deal, because the EU knows that if it gives us a bad deal, people will vote not to accept it. Frankly, it is Hobson’s choice.
Paul Scully
My hon. Friend is absolutely correct, as always. As I say, every time we diminish the negotiating position of the Government, we inevitably create a more distinct possibility of a watered-down deal. In fact, why does the EU need to speak to us at this time anyway? Theoretically, the way the Benn Bill works is that the letter that Parliament has written for the Prime Minister to take to the EU allows the EU to dictate the date that the UK leaves the EU. It has been nicknamed the “surrender Bill” for a reason; frankly, it is about as surrendery as it gets.
Jeremy Wright
I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way; he is being very generous with his time.
Again, I agree that it would be wrong to postpone our departure from the EU beyond 31 October. If we leave then, we leave either with or without a deal. If we do not have a general election—we will know by the end of this evening whether we are to have one—we will prorogue. Is the point not that we will come back on 14 October and give ourselves two weeks to either analyse a new deal, pass the old one, or decide how best to the Government can prepare us for no deal—which is simply not enough time?
Paul Scully
We have discussed no deal over the past few months, to quite an extent. There would clearly be more specifics, if it seems that that is how it will go. Rather than us not having enough time, people will probably be moving a bit more quickly and frantically.
I have never voted to take no deal off the table, because it is a serious proposition. I have always wanted to get a deal, but I am prepared to leave with no deal if we have done everything we can to get there. However, too many hon. Members in this place have just dismissed it. This goes right back to the heart of the referendum. Not enough hon. Members have taken seriously what people charged us with doing. Many times, I have had people pat me on the head and explain to me why I voted to leave, rather than ask me—and I am a Member of Parliament. Imagine how patronised by the establishment Joe Public feels in parts of the country that voted to leave.
No deal has always been there, whether or not it has been taken seriously by the Government at various points. That is possibly an argument for another day. No deal absolutely should have been discussed as a serious proposition and scrutinised over the past three years. We are at a point at which that proposition has ramped up, and I believe that there will be plenty of time to debate it. I hope that we get a deal. I hope that being able to say “We will leave by 31 October” focuses all our minds on ensuring that we get rid of the backstop. Bear in mind that although we have said what we do not want to do, that is the only thing that has been voted for affirmatively.
In conclusion, I come back to the point that proroguing until 14 October for a Queen’s Speech allows the new Prime Minister to set out his bold, ambitious domestic vision for this country, which people are absolutely screaming out for. They want us to get Brexit done, so that they can talk about what affects them daily: their hospital, their children’s schools and their safety at home and on the streets. Having more policeman and infrastructure, be it rail or broadband, is what affects people daily when they walk out their door.
Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ryan. I rise to speak on behalf of the 8,738 residents in Dulwich and West Norwood who signed the petition in opposition to Prorogation—the eighth-highest proportion of constituents in any constituency in the country—and on behalf of all my constituents, who will be denied their voice and democratic representation as a result of Prorogation today.
It has been argued that Prorogation is normal ahead of a Queen’s Speech, and that only three days of parliamentary time are being lost; we would normally break for conference recess anyway. However, we are not in ordinary times. Brexit has riven our country. We know that the Government’s own analysis shows that there is no version of Brexit that does not inflict damage on the UK economy, and that a no-deal Brexit will deliver a calamity for jobs, the supply of medicine and food, and peace in Northern Ireland. A no-deal Brexit poses a catastrophic threat to so many of the things that our constituents hold dear and on which they depend. To prorogue Parliament at such at time is not normal business; it is an outrage to our democracy.
My constituents voted overwhelmingly—77%—to remain in the European Union. I represent one of the most diverse constituencies in the country. We are internationalist and celebrate diversity. Our values are European values. The strength of feeling in my constituency of Dulwich and West Norwood has not diminished since 2016; it has strengthened and deepened. Since June 2016, however, 77% of my constituents and 48% of voters across the country have been told that we must be quiet, and that our views no longer matter. Even in the face of evidence that Vote Leave broke the law to an extent that might have been sufficient to influence the result of the referendum, we have been told that we must be quiet. We have been told that we must be silent in the face of evidence of the impact of Brexit, which was never discussed during the referendum campaign—most notably, the impact on the Good Friday agreement and peace in Northern Ireland. We have been told to be silent as the definition of Brexit, which was not discussed during the 2016 referendum, has become ever more reckless, right wing and extreme.
That is not how democracy works. It is never the case that, when we vote in a referendum or general election in this country, people who were on the losing side must simply change their views and acquiesce to those who won. It is never the case that, when we vote in an election in this country, everyone’s views are static from that point on for evermore. In our democracy, it is always the case that orderly discussion and debate continue in this Parliament—it is how we resolve our differences—and that we reflect on the result of a vote, on its consequences and impacts, and on what should happen next.
To shut down debate at this time—the House has not voted on the dates of conference recess, and extensive representations were made to the Prime Minister over the summer that Parliament should be recalled—is an insult to my constituents and an outrage to our democracy.
The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully) spoke of the times when business has finished early and we have not had matters to debate before us, but the Prime Minister has not brought any solutions to Brexit to this House for discussion and debate. He wants to close down debate in this place to force through a reckless no-deal Brexit that will inflict harm on constituents across the country. That is irresponsible and will drive even more division through our country.
Jeremy Wright
As the hon. Lady knows, I agree with the thrust of her argument that we should spend the bulk of the five weeks of possible Prorogation here discussing these issues, rather than elsewhere. Would it not be better if hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber made it clear we that we would use that time to discuss the best way for us to leave the European Union, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully) said, rather than to re-fight the referendum campaign, as I fear the hon. Lady may be suggesting we should do? Is not the best way of proceeding for us to leave with a deal and forge what cross-party consensus we can to find a deal that we all agree on?
Helen Hayes
It is clear that my constituents do not want to leave the European Union. As a Back-Bench MP on the Opposition Benches, I reserve the right to represent their views and test with them how they feel and think about any deal that is on the table. We had a deal from the previous Prime Minister that was undeliverable in this House for a range of reasons on both sides of the House. We now have a Prime Minister who says he wants a deal but will not put one on the table or negotiate one in good faith with the European Union. In that context, I am not prepared to acquiesce to an “emperor’s new clothes” argument that this will somehow be fine for my constituents. I want the right to continue to represent their views and bring to this House in an orderly fashion their views and concerns, debate them with the Government and hold this reckless Prime Minister to account.
I will not be silent. My constituents’ voices will continue to be heard, and our values will continue to be represented in this debate. I urge colleagues on both sides of the House to continue to oppose this Prorogation vigorously and to remain sitting this evening. This cuts to the very heart of our democracy and the ability of Members of Parliament to hold to account the Executive, who seem determined recklessly to drive us over the edge of a cliff. We cannot stand for that.
Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for this very important debate, Ms Ryan. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich and West Norwood (Helen Hayes) for her excellent contribution: she spoke a great deal of sense. We probably disagree about some of the eventual outcomes, but her defence of democracy was first class, and I wholeheartedly support it.
The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully) talked about a lot of issues, but something I regretted hearing from him was that we should not be here contemplating our navels. That is certainly not something that I do when I am here, and no hon. Member I am aware of spends their time here doing that. They are here representing their constituents and doing their very best for them. It would be wrong to suggest to the public at large that our time here is not important: it is normally well spent.
Many of my constituents signed the petition to block Prorogation. More than 10 times as many added their names to the petition against Prorogation as signed the one to support its implementation. I suspect that the number who are concerned about events will continue to rise. Many constituents have contacted me through social media and email. I agree with them that for the Prime Minister to shut down Parliament at such an important time in our country’s history, in the end stages of the Brexit process with by far the largest negotiations this country has undertaken in at least half a century, is nothing short of an outrage.
The Prime Minister is not content with ignoring Parliament: we know that he ignores his Cabinet colleagues, too. The number of people who were consulted about this decision before it was made was small. It is no wonder that most Cabinet members were not consulted, given that many of them spoke strongly against Prorogation during the Tory leadership campaign. For example, the right hon. Member for Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid) said:
“You don’t deliver on democracy by trashing democracy.”
The right hon. Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) said that the idea was an “archaic manoeuvre”. The right hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove) said:
“I think it would be wrong for many reasons. I think it would not be true to the best traditions of British democracy.”
I agree with what they said, even if they do not agree with themselves any more.
Paul Scully
Will the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that all three of those quotes were in response to the idea of proroguing Parliament and bridging 31 October—in other words, taking Prorogation beyond the date when we are supposed to leave the European Union?
Justin Madders
I do not know the precise context of those comments. What is clear is that Prorogation is designed to have the same effect—to shut down debate and stop Parliament analysing properly the effects of our exiting the EU by way of a deal or not. I am afraid that it amounts to the same thing—an absolute outrage for democracy.
That is where we are. Parliament will be suspended later today because the Prime Minister desires to avoid scrutiny and force us into a no-deal Brexit, despite the Government’s own analysis showing that a no-deal Brexit would mean food shortages, medicine shortages and chaos at our ports, and despite Parliament legislating to take no deal off the table.
The Government have no mandate from the British people to leave the EU without a deal, but what else would we expect from this Prime Minister? It was reported last week that his chief of staff described negotiations as a scam and an attempt to run down the clock. Even the right hon. Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) has decided that she can no longer take part in this charade. She resigned from the Cabinet this weekend because the Government had not undertaken serious formal negotiations with the EU. That exposes the truth of what the Government are about.
Let us be absolutely frank: the Government are about hiding from scrutiny and running away from the reality and the consequences of their decisions. It is a desperate attempt to cut and run before the truth catches up with them. A string of local companies came to see me over the summer with genuine concerns about the impact of a no-deal Brexit. Between them, they employ thousands of people. The Government’s decisions have the potential to wreak havoc on the local economy.
This is about not just the consequences of leaving without a deal, but Government decisions relating to that that could be changed. There are industry-wide issues, and that will almost certainly mean that jobs in other parts of the country will be affected. We are denied the opportunity to hold the Government to account on these matters, because we know that the truth is that they cannot justify their decisions. We are in the middle of the biggest constitutional crisis that this country has ever seen. We are on the cusp of enacting the biggest changes that this country has made for a generation, yet the Government are acting as if there is nothing to talk about. What an outrage!
If we leave the EU on 31 October with or without a deal, we will be woefully underprepared. It is simply inconceivable that all the legislation needed for an orderly exit is place, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Dr Drew) said. To my knowledge, there are at least six Bills that have not been passed and would need to be enacted for that to happen. If we crash out on the 31st without a deal—let us not forget that, despite what the Prime Minister said, that is still an option if he can persuade Parliament that it is the right thing to do—there is still an enormous amount of contingency planning needed in transport, medicines and food, to name but a few areas. Members of Parliament should be scrutinising the Government and holding them to account for what they intend to do.
I read a very alarming report the other day that suggested that the plans for a no-deal Brexit involve relocating thousands of council staff from around the country down to Whitehall to deal with no-deal fallout. Bizarrely, the council staff will be replaced with members of the armed forces. I have no idea whether that is true—I hope it is not—but surely we deserve to know what is going on. Surely our role as parliamentarians is to scrutinise Government policies, particularly when the effect might be as dramatic as that. We should sit every day until 31 October to sort this out, which is what we were elected to do. The Prime Minister should not be going around the country electioneering at a time of national crisis. That is snollygostering of the highest order.
The Prime Minister’s game—that is what it is to him—has been clear for some time: make a load of spending announcements quickly, shut down any scrutiny of them, and hope that the traditional honeymoon period that all Prime Ministers experience lasts until mid-October. Well, we will not play that game. I have been on to him since his second day in office, when he announced a £3.6 billion fund for towns. When I heard about that, I thought, “That sounds pretty promising and is certainly something that Ellesmere Port and Neston could benefit from.” I was keen to see whether my constituency would be on the list, but as Parliament was not sitting, I submitted a freedom of information request to the Cabinet Office, which said in its response that it had no information at all.
Here we have a Prime Minister announcing a multibillion-pound expenditure, while his office does not have even one scrap of paper to set out how the money will be spent. What a complete charlatan. I want accountability, answers and a Minister at the Dispatch Box to explain where that money is going, how it is being spent and who made those decisions. Anything less than that and it looks like a political fix—a cheap stunt unworthy of a serious party of government.
That is not the only issue on which I want answers. A major employer in my constituency is talking about shutting down in the event of a no-deal Brexit. Two secondary schools are up in arms about the way that they have been treated. There are major concerns about the way that a company contracted by the NHS suddenly went bust over the summer, and about the future of the fire service. There are major problems with access to mental health services. There is rising unemployment and a chronic lack of affordable housing. We should be tackling all of those matters here and now, in Parliament.
In truth, however, we will not be able to talk about those things because the Prime Minister does not want scrutiny as what he says does not stand up to it. He tells us that he cannot negotiate with the EU if no deal is taken off the table, but given his claim that the primary change that he wants to make is on the Irish backstop—a very specific issue—I see no connection between the changes that he says he wants and the need to keep no deal on the table. He also tells us that the first thing that the EU will ask in respect of any proposals made by the Government is whether they have the support of Parliament. How can Parliament say that it supports the proposals if it does not even know what they are and it is not sitting to find out? That does not stack up; it is a nonsense that has unravelled in a matter of days since Parliament’s return.
No wonder the Prime Minister does not want Parliament to sit. The more exposure he gets, the more even his own party walks away from the circus. The clown routine is an insult to the office of Prime Minister, to Parliament and to the people of this country, who he thinks will be duped by Eton’s answer to Arthur Daley—we will not fall for it. One cannot claim, as the Conservative party has, to believe on one hand in parliamentary sovereignty, and on the other in shutting Parliament down.
I put on the record that I do not support the Prorogation of Parliament and believe it to be an unprecedented, antidemocratic and unconstitutional attack on our democracy. Taking back control means Parliament taking back control and standing up to the bully boys who want to shut us down.
Faisal Rashid (Warrington South) (Lab)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ryan. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) on his excellent speech.
The Prorogation of Parliament is just the latest in a series of reckless and opportunistic gambles undertaken by Conservative Prime Ministers on the issue of Europe. As always, the hardworking people of this country will suffer most as a result. David Cameron refused to face the consequences of his own decision to hold the 2016 in/out referendum on Europe with no conditions at all. Theresa May argued that no deal was better than a bad deal and, after she brought a bad deal back to Parliament, we now, unsurprisingly, face crashing out without a deal. That outcome was not even part of the discussion in 2016, yet nothing else will now satisfy this Government’s far-right backers.
In the last few years, poverty, inequality and homelessness have risen. Against that backdrop, Parliament has been reduced to banging on endlessly about Europe. As the Prime Minister suspends Parliament to take us out of Europe without a deal, experts and the Government’s own advisers warn of food shortages and limited access to medical supplies. Just stop and think about that for a second—peacetime shortages of food and medicine. That is not the result of a natural disaster but a political disaster—the Conservative party.
The damage of a no-deal Brexit will not be temporary; it threatens profound systematic damage to our economy. The Bank of England says that that outcome would permanently—not temporarily—reduce the UK’s export potential. The Treasury believes that it would result in an economy 8% to 10% smaller in 15 years than if we were to remain in the European Union, with the north- west hit the hardest. The president of the National Farmers Union, Minette Batters, said that a no-deal Brexit would be
“socially and economically catastrophic for farming in Britain.”
Make UK, the manufacturers organisation, said that it would be
“disastrous for the majority of UK manufacturers and the livelihoods of the millions of people they employ and their families.”
Yet to realise this disastrous outcome, the Government have resolved to gag Parliament in these most critical days for our country. That they can proceed with such arrogance is astonishing, after all, it will not be their families who are on the breadline or their livelihoods that are destroyed. We need to prevent the irreparable damage of no deal at all costs.
The single greatest myth of a no-deal Brexit is the idea that it avoids the need for negotiations with the European Union. The day after we crash out without a deal, the need for a strategic relationship with our largest and nearest market would remain, and we would seek a free-trade agreement. The Government talk about strengthening our negotiating position with the EU, but in reality, the day after no deal, we would be forced to go cap in hand to the EU for a trade deal, with our economy in tatters. How would we negotiate then? We talk about keeping no deal on the table to negotiate, but if we crash out without a deal, how can we expect a good free trade agreement afterwards?
MPs from across the House must fight with all our might to stop no deal. That is why I will vote against a general election this evening until the threat of leaving the EU without a deal is ruled out. Otherwise, we are up for a general election and we are ready for one.
Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op)
This is a really important debate, not least because 1.7 million people signed the petition. We have had demonstrations up and down the country, including in Leeds both this and last Saturday. The previous Saturday saw the largest demonstration in Leeds since the protests against the Iraq war, with 5,000 people turning out to hear some of the city’s and the region’s MPs, who are all from the Labour party.
Those demonstrations happened because people think that we need to be in Parliament to scrutinise the Executive at this crucial time, rather than spending five weeks in our constituencies and at party conference. Nor, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) said, should the Prime Minister be electioneering using public money in that time, before general election spending rules apply.
It is vital that we are here because the country is in no way prepared for crashing out of the EU on 31 October as the Prime Minister seems intent on doing. Today, I read in The Times that our EU negotiating team is composed of just four people. How will four people negotiate a new withdrawal agreement with the European Union in the time that we have left before the European Council? That does not seem credible and does not stand up to scrutiny. That is why Parliament is being prorogued: so that scrutiny does not exist.
What else do we need in that period? A number of Bills that have started to go through the House have not completed the process, and they need to before we reach any watershed moment with the European Union. If they have not been completed, it will be absolutely chaotic—we will live in a chaotic country in which international law has not been properly legislated for; not enacted by our legislature.
The Trade Bill, for example, has not been finished. Why not, because it should have? We were on track to pass the Trade Bill in May—I do not mind if the Minister corrects me on that, but I think we should have completed the Bill then. We have not done so because of the attempts—which I would have supported—to insert a customs union into the provisions of the Trade Bill, and the Government, under both this Prime Minister and the previous one, the right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), did not want a customs union. Progress on the Bill was therefore slowed down, so we will not complete it in time for 31 October.
An immigration Bill would have provided some surety for EU citizens in this country—though perhaps not, depending on what happened with it—and regulated immigration post Brexit. What now happens to those EU citizens if the Prime Minister does not negotiate a withdrawal agreement and we leave with no deal on 31 October? I hope that the Minister has a good answer, because 3 million people in this country are interested to know what their status will be without the completion of such an immigration Bill. They do not believe the promises that have come from Ministers and the Executive.
What about the Fisheries Bill? Central to the leave campaign in 2016 was that the UK would take back control of fisheries and fishing rights, but how will that be possible without a Fisheries Bill? Without that legislation, will not other countries with which we share our territorial waters contest us in international courts? What a laughing stock we will be if we leave on 31 October without the legislation. The Agriculture Bill, too, is meant to frame what we will have post the common agricultural policy.
I am sure the Minister will say, “Oh, but these Bills will be in the Queen’s Speech”—obviously, he cannot give us a decisive answer on what will and will not be in the Queen’s Speech, but he will try to reassure us. However, I want to know how we will legislate for all those Bills by 31 October.
Martin Whitfield
Is my hon. Friend aware—I am certainly not—whether any carry-over motions have been tabled to save those Bills? That would avoid the necessity of them having to appear in the Queen’s Speech and mean that we could get back to them in the ridiculously short time that we will have left.
Alex Sobel
We only have a few hours before the House is prorogued. I am sure that colleagues of the Minister are busily preparing to ensure that we do not have to bring those Bills back in the Queen’s Speech, but one Bill we will without doubt need to be in it is an environment Bill. We were expecting an environment Bill to be introduced; we were expecting to be through First and Second Reading and in Committee—I wanted to be on the Committee, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Anna McMorrin), who is sitting next to me—but we have no environment Bill. I would like to know what regulations will exist, and how we will enforce them from 1 November, if the Prime Minister completes the task that he has set for himself.
In Leeds, we are due to have a clean-air zone, because our air quality is among the worst in this country. Three times the Government have been taken to court by ClientEarth and lost, on the basis of EU regulations forming part of UK law to enshrine, embed and widen air quality through a number of local authorities in the UK. The Government have failed to deliver to Leeds what it needs—a charging system, and equipment for such vehicles—so we in Leeds will be in breach of EU regulations on air quality for longer than we expected.
Who will provide the environmental protection that we need? I asked that question of the hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), now the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, but until a few hours ago the Minister of State in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. She said that in a no-deal Brexit scenario, the new agency would not be formed until the end of 2020 or the beginning of 2021, and that people would have to take environmental action retrospectively. That means that we will have no environmental protection in this country from 31 October until that date. I have an issue with effluent discharge into the River Wharfe, and I hope for some enforcement action on it. Will I be disappointed? Will people have to swim in effluent for two more years because there is no regulation? I would like to know.
The issues are not small and minor; they are huge, and Parliament should be here, sitting to debate those Bills, scrutinising them in Committee, and getting them through so that on 31 October we are not in a situation in which the people of this country have a far worse quality of life.
Rachael Maskell
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his speech. So many factors are important. On 5 August, we saw the incursion in Kashmir. My constituents want to debate that issue, and to call the Government to account for their actions in the light of the lockdown in Kashmir and the sheer catastrophic humanitarian risk in Indian-administered Kashmir. Surely proroguing Parliament prevents this House from scrutinising the Government’s actions on important global matters as well.
Alex Sobel
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. In Kashmir, the internet has been shut down, and there is a lack of reporting on the crackdown by the Indian Government. We also have the events in Hong Kong. Britain is a party to the Chinese-British agreement of 1984, so in some senses what happens in Hong Kong is a matter of foreign policy but, equally, it is not. We will not be able to hold any scrutiny of the Foreign Secretary on that matter either.
There is a whole raft of things over and above legislation, but over that period all that people will be able to see are the party conferences, when only one party’s view will be given. In the week of 20 September, it will be my party’s view, which I will support. Once a year, we get a platform and a fair hearing in the media, but that is not the same as the parliamentary scrutiny that we would have if we were here.
The idea that—this is complementary to the remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich and West Norwood (Helen Hayes)—we could vote tonight for a general election, hold one and come back with the whole issue of Brexit cleanly resolved is absolute nonsense. In the current circumstances, in what would be a general election with only one issue on the ballot paper, no one can predict what the result would be. That would subvert the general election into a vote on one issue, when it should be about the economy, our health, our education system, our environment and every other issue that is important in the country. That is not the way to deal with Brexit; the only way to deal with it is to confirm the decision of the 2016 referendum, or not, by the Government’s negotiating a withdrawal agreement with the EU. The Prime Minister repeatedly tells us he has almost completed one, although today the Irish Prime Minister said that he had no evidence of any progress on it—I am not sure which Prime Minister I would like to believe at this stage, but on 14, 15, 16 or 17 October we will see which one is correct.
Paul Scully
Will the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that the Irish Taoiseach also said that if the UK is to leave, it should do so by 31 October? That was stated to be the viewpoint of the majority of EU member states.
Alex Sobel
This is an evolving situation on the EU side. If we prorogue tonight without a general election, I hope to go to Brussels tomorrow to meet a number of people in the European Parliament and the Commission, so that I can hear at first hand what is happening in the EU. It is difficult to know what is going on in the EU from the trial by media; it is hard enough to work out what is going on in our Government, never mind in 27 other Governments.
The general election is not an adequate alternative to solve our future relationship with the European Union. The only real way to finally address this question , as my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Martin Whitfield) said, is a confirmatory vote on whether to accept a withdrawal agreement, or not to and therefore stay in the European Union. That way, people would go to the ballot box on this issue in isolation and resolve it. Underlying Prorogation are attempts not to allow us the time for Parliament to decide that question. It concerns me that this is a politicised Prorogation of Parliament.
Martin Whitfield (East Lothian) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ryan, and to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Alex Sobel). This is an interesting debate, founded on petitions launched by people who were desperate to indicate their view to this House and this Government.
I represent East Lothian, where 3,867 constituents signed the petition not to prorogue Parliament, and 86 constituents signed the petition to prorogue Parliament. That made me think about what Prorogation is really about. It dates back to when this House was cleaned to make it ready for the arrival of His or Her Majesty—that was the reason we all had to get out. The effect is much greater at a constitutional level—we heard about the Bills that will be lost, but let me talk about one small problem that comes to mind: I will not be able to lodge any questions on my constituents’ behalf when we are prorogued.
I think of an EU citizen who successfully registered online and received a letter containing a number. The letter confirms that it is not proof of her status; the only way to gain proof of status is to log on, send a code by mobile phone, get an access code and then successfully prove it. She intends to leave this country on 1 November for a holiday, but she is worried that she will not get back in. When she arrives back with her German passport, it will not be read correctly because the data will not have been transmitted. She is genuinely worried about what she is supposed to do when she tries to get access to her data, or when Border Force try to get access, as in some trials nothing has happened. I pose that question, unfairly, in the hope of an answer, because once we are prorogued later tonight, I will not be able to lodge a question. I will not be able to find out what my constituent is supposed to do.
That brings me to the length of Prorogation. We have heard that there were Ministers who disagreed with Prorogation and those who agreed with it. The fact remains that the Government have said in their many charts that, taking out conference recess, the number of days that we are being prorogued is not much greater than in the past. That is not true; it is much longer. The Government did not present the motion for conference recess and I genuinely believe that they had no intention of doing so because they are using that period to hide from being questioned. That is why they want us to go away—so they do not have to answer questions about data, medicines, transport, EU citizens, the missing Bills, the state of the environment and the state of the negotiations.
I have heard, “We have to keep this private. We can’t take no deal off the table. We have to keep our hand secret.” It is strange that the European Union seems to have taken entirely the opposite view. Right from the beginning of the negotiation, it set out the evidence and its asks; it debated them and it put all that in the public realm. We are unable to do that because, we are told, “that is not how you negotiate.” With the greatest of respect, I do not think the way we intend to negotiate—by holding our cards close to our chests and telling nobody anything, with four people left to do the negotiation—is respecting the United Kingdom.
The Government are attacking an element of our constitution. Prorogation is a relatively small backwater of our constitution. To use it to stop Parliament, so the Government do not have to answer questions posed by representatives of constituents around the United Kingdom, is an extremely dangerous precedent to make. With all due respect, if we were sitting on the other side and we tried to defend sending Members of Parliament away for five weeks so that something could happen, those opposite would not be silent.
Dr David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op)
I am delighted to speak with you in the Chair, Ms Ryan. I thank the thousands of people in my constituency who signed the petition.
I am angry. I am a mild-mannered person, as most hon. Members would agree, but I never thought I would see this in this mother of Parliaments. We created parliamentary democracy, which works because the Government run Parliament—sometimes that is not as clear as it should be—and there is a degree of fair play between Government and Opposition. That has completely broken down, to the extent that there have been a series of guns to our head for a general election and for no deal, as if that is what Parliament should accept. If this were a banana republic, we would understand that a president might manipulate us, but this is the British Parliament. Today is a hard day for Parliament.
I am reminded of an episode of “Whatever Happened to the Likely Lads?” I apologise to all those who are too young to remember that. There is a wonderful episode where they are trying to avoid the result of the England football game. They spend the whole day in and out of pubs because they do not want to know the score and want to watch it on the highlights as if it were a live game. They get to the very end, and they find the result of the game written on a beer mat. That proves to me that, with Prorogation, the Government can hide and they can run, but they will always be held to account somewhere. Prorogation is about trying to avoid being called to account over some of the most important things.
I bear a grudge, because I spent 37 hours of my time debating the Agriculture Bill as the Opposition spokesperson, along with other hon. Members. No matter how badly I did, I tried my best, and I will never get back those 37 hours. I might be fortunate enough to have another 37 hours, because hopefully the Bill will come back in some form. Why does that matter? If I am trying to plan my farm policy—trying to work out what I will grow next year and what animals I will keep—I need to know the system of agriculture, yet that is in abeyance. Yes, we can carry on with the existing common agricultural policy, but I thought we were trying to get out of it—that was one of the drivers for leaving the EU. That is bad enough, but I also spent a lot of hours debating statutory instruments, some of which will be out of date by now.
It was not our decision to have a two-year Session—that happened at the behest of the Government. Some of us feel it was a mistake, and that Parliament should have an annual programme, but this Government decided they would have a two-year programme. It has come back to haunt us. The Agriculture Bill left this place well before Christmas last year. Therefore, we have been waiting for it to come back for the best part of nine months. I understand through the usual channels that we were offered a deal—let it through and we will not say anything else about it. With the best will in the world, we had arguments against the Bill in its current form.
That is bad enough, but as two of my hon. Friends have said, the situation of fisheries is even more drastic. If we drop out with no deal, the scallop wars over the Christmas period will be just a foretaste. People will start taking the law—whatever that may be at this moment in time—into their own hands.
If we had not been debating this petition today, I would have been summing up for the Opposition in a debate about cages, animal sentience and so on. Again, all that is in abeyance. We do not have a clear statement of the law. The law does not exist anymore. We chose not to put it in the Trade Bill. We have an animal sentience Bill, but I do not know whether that will be carried over. Does that matter? Of course it does. If someone is trying to prosecute a person who has mistreated an animal, what law do they use? Do they use the law that used to exist or the law that could have existed if we had allowed it to go through? Those issues really matter. This is not Opposition Members just kicking off; it is about the way we are being prevented from doing our job.
I would have raised this as a point of order, but I have been told by various Departments—the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, which I shadow; the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport; and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office—that parliamentary questions I tabled over the recess cannot be answered because of the Prorogation of Parliament. We could all go on about how wonderful Speaker Bercow has been, but one of the great things he has put in place is the ability to ask questions for answer during recess. That was a dramatic improvement on our not being able to do our job of holding the Government to account.
I now have three Departments telling me, in advance of Prorogation, while anything could still happen—we could choose not to prorogue tonight—that they will not answer questions. That does not mean they will answer them in the future; it means they will not answer them. The questions will fall. That is wrong—particularly for me, because I will have to table them all again. However, other Departments have answered questions, so will the Minister put on the record, on behalf of the Government, the process for determining whether Departments should answer a question when we are about to prorogue? Dare I say it, some civil servants seem to work very hard to get us an answer, but others just say, “Here’s a two-line thing. We’re not going to answer it.”
To me, a lot of this demonstrates how Parliament is not really running by the rules any more. The idea is that Parliament should hold the Government to account, but at the moment it seems that Parliament is being held to account by the Government, who say, “Well, we’ll answer when we want to, we’ll let you take part in debates if you have to, but really, this is subject to our whims.” My friend Graham Allen, as Chair of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee—when we had one—looked at whether we should have a written constitution. I feel strongly, on the basis of the past couple of weeks, that we must. It is wrong that Parliament cannot hold the Government to account. We should have rules on when Prorogation should take place and on whether Departments should answer questions.
This really matters. As parliamentarians, whatever party we come from and whether we are in government or opposition, we must have the security and knowledge that our job cannot be undermined; otherwise, the people will increasingly lose confidence in Parliament, because they will think the Government just use it to rubber-stamp whatever they want. In a time of a hung Parliament—and of a very hung Government, for all sorts of reasons—it is important that we have a justification for what is going on and that that is put into some form of arrangement so the rules are much more transparent, open and fair.
What is going on is undemocratic; it is unconstitutional, given that we do not have a written constitution; and it is a mess. It is not easy trying to explain to our constituents what we are all up to at the moment. Sometimes, when I write an email, I think, “Do I understand what I’m writing?” It changes from minute to minute, and whether we are in government, opposition or whatever, it is very unclear what our stance is. Deep down, I think this is a shameful period for our Parliament. We should do something about it.
Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Ryan. I thank the thousands of people in my constituency who signed the petition to defend democracy against this Prorogation, which certainly is not in the spirit of our values as an open, free and transparent parliamentary democracy—although it is not hard for anyone to see the motive behind the Prime Minister’s actions. This is a blatant act of trickery by the Prime Minister and those around him in No. 10, designed only to shield a weak and divided Government from the wave of dissatisfaction among Members across the House and people across the country. It is a disingenuous act.
The Prime Minister makes much fanfare about our parliamentary democracy and lauds historical figures who led our country through past emergencies. Although he might try to compare himself to those who held the highest office before him and draw similarities between their strife and his own, the situation we find ourselves in is entirely of his making. His attempt to subvert democracy in this way is not at all fitting of comparison to the actions of any of the figures he holds in such high esteem, and it is not fitting of the office of Prime Minister.
The events of the past days and weeks have stretched the capacity of our constitutional norms, but what have they taught us? We have a Prime Minister who is prepared to stretch the limits of democracy and abuse the parliamentary system. I agree with my colleagues that urgent reform is needed, although perhaps that is a debate for another day.
In kicking MPs out and suspending Parliament—in dismissing them and locking the door—the Prime Minister is denying my constituents the right to have their voices heard. In silencing the voices of MPs, he is silencing a nation. People and businesses in Cardiff North all tell me that. People came up to me at the weekend wanting to know what is going on. They asked, “Why is the Prime Minister doing this to our country? Why are the Government doing this?” They are worried about their future and about how this will affect them. They are worried that we are on the path to a devastating no deal that will have an impact on their livelihoods and their families.
All this is taking place in the eye of a storm, amid a growing emergency—a national crisis—during which people expect us to be present here. They want us to be here, standing up for them and working hard to resolve the crisis. As has been said, suspending Parliament means that important Bills, which we all worked hard on, will fall by the wayside. We heard about the environment Bill and the Agriculture Bill. I have my own Bill on plastics and packaging, which will fall by the wayside too. It would have extended producers’ responsibilities to ensure that the packaging they produce is far more environmentally friendly—it would have made them stand up and take notice—but it will fall by the wayside. What will happen then?
I have just come from a meeting with tens, if not hundreds of climate protesters, who are here to meet their Members of Parliament. What message does suspending Parliament send to the country and the world? That we do not care about the climate emergency? I am afraid the climate emergency will not stop just because Boris Johnson wants to massage his ego and get on with crashing us out with no deal.
Joan Ryan (in the Chair)
Order. The hon. Lady needs to use the phrase “the Prime Minister.”
Anna McMorrin
My apologies, Ms Ryan. I will say “Prime Minister” from now on.
Paul Scully
If the hon. Lady is referring to the event in the Churchill Room, it is organised by the Extinction Rebellion Sutton group and hosted by me. It is perfectly possible to meet those people in our constituencies, as I did in organising the event, and bring the issue back over a period. We can still do our work when we are not here.
Joan Ryan (in the Chair)
Order. If the hon. Lady wishes to use the phrase “the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip,” that will also be perfectly acceptable.
Anna McMorrin
Thank you, Ms Ryan. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Absolutely, my job all summer and whenever this place is in recess is to work on all those issues in my constituency, as we all do. However, stopping Parliament from sitting stops vital legislation. It means that we stop scrutinising the Government on the action they are taking on this climate emergency. It is all very well to have words, but we need action, and that needs to be taken at the highest level.
Paul Scully
The hon. Lady is generous in giving way. Does she agree that we did not hear much calling for action or scrutiny about all these other issues over the summer recess, when we could have been talking about any number of things?
Anna McMorrin
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but I do not really understand it, because Parliament was not sitting. During the summer recess, I met protesters and held various events in my constituency.
I will not stand idly by while a Prime Minister in freefall runs roughshod over our country; a Prime Minister who will use this time to roam the country, electioneering on public money. Prorogation or not, his attempts to silence us will not work. I am here to protect the livelihoods, futures and businesses of my constituents.
With a threat as big as no deal looming large and with the Government choosing ruin over delay, I will continue to do whatever I can, by joining forces with my colleagues to protect vital jobs, services, communities and livelihoods. I will continue to campaign and fight for what I believe is the best solution to the crisis we find ourselves in: to put the decision on the future of Brexit back to the people for a final say. I will campaign firmly and loudly to remain as a full member of the European Union.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
I apologise for not being here at the beginning of the debate; I was giving evidence to the review panel on High Speed 2. That issue is one reason why I am very concerned about the length of this Prorogation. HS2 phase 2a, which is being considered by Parliament and approaching the House of Lords, has a huge impact on my constituents, so it was important to be able to give evidence to the panel. I will come to the other things we will be prevented from doing in the coming weeks by this excessive Prorogation. It is right that we should have a Prorogation—I am fully in favour of a new Queen’s Speech—but it should not last until 14 October.
My plea to the Government is that we should come back at the latest on 7 October, if not on 3 October, once all party conferences have concluded. That is plenty of time. We are in the midst of a crisis in Parliament and in the country. We need to respect the result of the 2016 referendum and leave the European Union but do so with a deal in an orderly way, as set out by the manifesto on which I stood in 2017. The problem with coming back from Prorogation on 14 October is that that leaves little time for Parliament to consider the new deal or revised deal that I firmly hope the Prime Minister will bring back—even perhaps in draft, if it is in advance of the European Council on 17 October. It is our responsibility to look at that. Indeed, as a member of the newly formed grouping of MPs for a deal, I will work with Members of Parliament from across the House to ensure that there is an opportunity to arrive at a deal that achieves a majority in this House.
Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
Like the hon. Gentleman, I was giving evidence to the HS2 panel, as well as meeting Extinction Rebellion and indeed Dignity in Dying, and Shelter. I wonder why it can be said that we have little to do here if we have to try to be in five places at once. I admire what he said on Prorogation. Will he go a stage further and say that we should at least remain Members of Parliament so that we can still lobby and come back some time in October? Were an election to go ahead, we would have no control over that whatsoever. As the Prime Minister has said he may be equivocal about obeying the law, an election is to be avoided at all costs.
[Mrs Anne Main in the Chair.]
Jeremy Lefroy
The hon. Gentleman and I were together at the HS2 panel and I listened carefully to the important points he made about Old Oak Common and the surrounding area that is affected by HS2. I am in a quandary about an election. On the one hand, it would be decisive. I suspect it would be run on the lines of remain, leave or leave with a deal, and it would be a chance for the people to decide, in a manner of speaking. On the other hand, I see what he says: if we have an election, we will not be able to make these points. Prorogation leaves us in a halfway house where we cannot raise points in Parliament and we do not have the decisiveness of an election; it is neither fish nor fowl.
There are two main reasons why I do not want to see Parliament prorogued for as long as proposed—and the Government could still request for Prorogation to be for less time. First, we need more time to consider really important matters such as the prospective deal, which I very much hope the Prime Minister is committed to bringing before this House, and which, in some form or other, will be passed by this House so that we can fulfil the referendum result and leave in an orderly fashion.
It is also extremely important to bring up constituency matters. With your permission, Mrs Main, I will give a few examples, because I will not be able to do so at business questions or other times. First, a constituent of mine, Staff Sergeant Proverbs, who has just left the Army after 20 years of active service to this country in a number of theatres, was injured on duty at NATO headquarters in this country, yet because of the intricacies of the rules around pensions and disability, he is being deprived of a proper disability payment and disability pension. I have taken up his case with the Minister for the Armed Forces and the Minister for Defence People and Veterans and had a sympathetic hearing, but the Ministry of Defence is not dealing with my constituent in a proper manner. As a result, he faces a much lower level of income, despite his disability, which was incurred in the course of serving our country.
I also raise the case again—I have done so before in the House of Commons—of my constituent, Mr Gray, on whose behalf on a serious matter I have written to Barclays a number of times to request a meeting, but Barclays has still not replied to me.
I also want to raise the fact that not long ago I had a debate on the manipulation of precious metal prices, which is a serious matter that is fundamental to the financial system of this country and the whole world. We had a good response from the Minister but there are serious outstanding matters that need to be raised in Parliament and discussed here.
I could go on, and I am sure other Members could do the same, but it is clear to me that we need the time in Parliament. Clearly, the Government need time to prepare the Queen’s Speech. I understand that, but a couple of weeks is more than enough. It is not as if they are starting on it ab initio or that as from tomorrow they will start thinking about the Queen’s Speech. They have been thinking about it for a long time, and rightly so. Two or three weeks maximum is more than enough time. I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to communicate to his colleagues in Government and to the Prime Minister that if we could resume on 3 October or, at the very latest, 7 October, it would be welcomed across the House.
Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mrs Main.
I begin with a couple of points about the procedure we are engaged in here. Before members of the Petitions Committee leap up, I should say I do not intend any criticism of them. I have been at a number of these debates on matters on which the public have petitioned us, and I wonder if our procedures are effective and robust enough to deliver on the expectations of those who petition Parliament.
First, we are dealing with two petitions. I am not sure of the need to lump petitions together just because they cover the same topic, particularly in this instance, where they represent diametrically opposed views. One petition, which I presume has been organised by pro-Brexit campaigners because they believe this Parliament is made up of remoaners who are antipathetic to their case, has taken five months to get to the requisite threshold of 100,000 signatures. The other petition collected 1.7 million signatures in a matter of hours and reflects serious public outrage at a decision taken by the Government. To give parity of consideration to those two petitions is simply not fair.
I wonder how many people who sign such petitions understand that this is the place where their hopes and aspirations come to die on a wet Monday afternoon, in a Committee Room off the House of Commons Chamber, with 10 Members assembled who have no ability to advocate on behalf of the petitioners, or to influence, nevermind change, Government policy. It is too late for this Parliament, but if I come back to this place in the future, I will seek changes to our procedures and how we deal with those who petition this Parliament. I do not think we treat them fairly enough.
My concerns about how we deal with petitions are as nothing to my concerns about the inadequacy of our constitution when it comes to Parliament sitting. Is it not astonishing that our Parliament can be suspended for five weeks in the middle of a major political crisis, the ramifications of which are profound, legion, and no way near being concluded? Most people would find that astounding; I find it astounding myself that this can happen perfectly legally and normally.
The role of Parliament is to scrutinise and hold to account the Executive. It cannot be right that the Executive can relieve itself of that scrutiny by the simple expedient of suspending Parliament. It seems a bizarre situation, yet it is the one we are confronted by. By the time we get to 14 October, the Prime Minister will have held the most powerful executive office in the land for 82 days, and on only four of those days will Parliament have been able to hold him and his Government to account. That is frankly a shocking state of affairs. I do not buy the argument that that is because Government Ministers and their advisers need time to prepare a new legislative programme.
Alex Sobel
The hon. Gentleman just outlined that the Prime Minister will have been in office for 82 days, and that Parliament will have sat for only four of them. That means that there will have been only one Prime Minister’s Question Time. Members of this House will not be able to question the Prime Minister until after the Queen’s Speech, even though by then he will have been in office for over three months.
Tommy Sheppard
I know; it is staggering.
We need to ask ourselves why this is happening. It is because we have a Prime Minister who has no mandate, no majority in the House and no ability to get legislation through Parliament. Rather than compromise with Parliament or seek a majority, he is determined simply to walk away from it and not have the debate. That is a very bad look for our democracy.
It is also bad that we have a Prime Minister who, in his public pronouncements, is uncertain whether he will deliver on the will of Parliament, and now the law of the land, which is that in the absence of a withdrawal deal with the European Union, we should seek an extension until 31 January to allow further time for an agreement to emerge. That the Prime Minister and his advisers are equivocal on that is a matter for deep concern.
I do not buy the Prime Minister’s suggestion that all we need to do in these circumstances is have a quick cut-and-run election. There is no point having an election if the main point of it—to decide whether or not to crash out of the European Union without a deal—cannot be altered by the outcome. We cannot allow an election simply so that the Prime Minister can escape the obligation that Parliament has placed on him. Parliament has not allowed that to happen, and I am sure that it will not allow it later on tonight.
An election will need to come soon; the delay will be only a matter of weeks. As soon as we are confident that we will not crash out of the European Union without a deal, and have more time to consider options and strategy, it will be frankly impossible to advance the process in the country without going back to the people. It is time for them to have another say.
I sense that an awful lot of Members of Parliament, on both sides of the House, understand very well the consequences of Brexit; they are not attracted to them, but they feel that they do not have a mandate to oppose Brexit because of the nature of the manifesto on which they stood in 2017. Shaking up the political cards and allowing a different Parliament to emerge with fresh mandates may open the possibility for reconsideration of this matter. I hope that an election will allow a new Parliament to consider putting the matter back to the people who started the process.
It is not the role of Parliament to overturn, set aside or ignore the will of the people, but it is the role of Parliament to interpret it. If we have found, three years later, that what the people asked us to do—that is, to leave the European Union and make things better—is simply undoable, and if what they ask cannot be done, and the circle cannot be squared, then we need to go back to the people, explain that, and ask them whether they want to reconsider. It may well be that they do not want to do that, and that they are content to leave the European Union knowing that it will impoverish them and their families, and diminish the character and culture of this country. That choice should be for them, and they should be allowed to make it, but I am confident that if we are given the opportunity to fight that election, we can get an alternative point of view to emerge—one that will look at the benefits of remaining in the European Union, and changing it so that it delivers for people’s aspirations.
When that election comes in Scotland, my party will not just say, “Stop and reconsider the process of Brexit,” and campaign for an alternative Government to the one that we have had for nearly a decade, but demand and assert the right of the people of Scotland to choose an alternative future. It should be their right not to go down the path that they are being led down by the Prime Minister, and to say that they want to consider an alternative, independent future, in which they take political control of their affairs and determine their relationship with the rest of the people in Britain and Europe. That is the manifesto that we shall put before people in the election that I am sure will come in November, and I look forward to returning to this Chamber to argue that case.
Jo Platt (Leigh) (Lab/Co-op)
It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I thank all Members who have taken part in the debate for their speeches, which have highlighted the seriousness of the debate. Tonight, Parliament is to suspend for up to five weeks at this most crucial time in our country’s recent history. That slippery manoeuvre by the new Prime Minister is designed to scupper proper accountability and silence scrutiny when it is most needed.
The Government are already operating with even more secrecy than the previous Government, who were certainly not known for their transparency. As we saw last week when the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster came to the House to provide an update on Brexit preparations, the Government are determined to conceal what is really going on. Indeed, what we know about the Government’s preparations for Brexit has come mostly from leaks, and from insight from former Tories, including the former Work and Pensions Secretary, the right hon. Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd), who resigned this weekend in protest at the inaction. According to newspaper reports, the Yellowhammer papers, which outline scenarios in the event of a no-deal Brexit, speak of delays at the channel stretching over two days, food and medical shortages, and potentially even protests on the streets.
Depending on who we listen to, the Government’s negotiations with Brussels are either going well or going nowhere at all. I suspect that the Minister himself does not know which, such is the way the Government are run. They are run by a small ring of unelected advisers who are more concerned with their reputations than the interests of the country. Clearly, then, there are serious questions that Parliament and the public need answers to over the coming weeks, but in closing down Parliament, the Prime Minister has denied the chance for questions to be asked, let alone answered. As my hon. Friends have pointed out, he has shown contempt not only for Parliamentary democracy, but for the British public, who deserve reassurances that the Government have their interests front and centre. It is yet another case of the old Etonian, entitled arrogance that seems to characterise so much of this Government’s policies. What this boils down to is the feeling among the Prime Minister and his allies that they know best. Clearly they do not, and every time the Prime Minister loses yet another vote in the Commons, we are reminded that far from knowing best, they have misjudged Parliament. Labour believes that they have also misjudged the mood of the public.
If the Government use the suspension of Parliament to ram through a no-deal Brexit, as many believe they will, they will not be delivering on the will of the people, but setting the country up for a period of more stagnation and hardship. We must expose no deal for what it is. It is not a quick fix to solve Brexit, but a path of more chaos, more negotiations, more unrest and no consensus across the country. Far from settling the chaos, it will take us back years, while we build from scratch the economic relationship that we want with our closest and nearest trading partners. It would be a path of more delay, rather than allowing us to forge our future relationship with the EU. We would see years of turmoil that we simply cannot afford. After a decade of Conservative austerity, that is the exact opposite of what our country needs at this key turning point.
That is why Labour is determined to use every possible means to expose and prevent the no-deal Brexit that has only ever been the desired option of a small group of hard-liners in the Conservative party, obsessed with deregulation and mythical free trade deals. Indeed, it is their obsession with a no-deal Brexit and the failure of successive Prime Ministers to show leadership that has stopped us reaching a consensus and getting a deal that works for the whole country. The Chancellor’s repeated refusal to rule out an electoral pact with the Brexit party only confirms that this Government are prepared to hang on to the coat-tails of hard-liners, just like the last one.
Setting aside the question of Brexit for the moment, let us consider the shock with which so much of the public reacted not only to the news that the Prime Minister was closing down Parliament, but to the very fact that he could do that. For many people, the past few weeks have provided a crash course in how the British constitution works. I hear that Parliament overtook “Love Island” in the TV viewing ratings. Viewers are probably unhappy with the characters in both programmes.
People often talk of our unwritten constitution in glowing terms; they say it is flexible, but that flexibility has allowed the Prime Minister to sidestep Parliament completely. Consider for a moment the precedent that that sets—a Prime Minister who does not like the view of Parliament simply shutting it down and silencing elected representatives. In doing so, he has shown contempt for democracy, but he has also revealed how archaic our political system really is. Brexit is about many things, but for many people, it was a chance to express their dissatisfaction with how our political system works— and they are right to be dissatisfied. The Westminster system is over-centralised, and the second Chamber is unelected. Parliament is dominated by those from privileged backgrounds, and our elections are captured by big and dark money.
That the Prime Minister can suspend Parliament so easily is yet another feature of our political system that points towards the urgent need for reform. That is why the Labour party is committed to delivering a constitutional convention when it is in government—a convention that will examine and advise on reforming the way Britain works at a fundamental level. We hope that the convention will provide the impetus for a programme of democratic reform that puts power in the hands of the people. However, in the meantime, it is essential that the Labour party, working with the other Opposition parties, does everything it can to prevent a disastrous no deal. The suspension of Parliament will make that task all the more difficult, but as the last week has shown, the Government’s tricks and attempts to rig the system are collapsing like a house of cards. If they continue to show contempt for Parliament and the British public, they may find themselves leaving No. 10 as quickly as they entered it.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Kevin Foster)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully) for opening the debate on behalf of the Petitions Committee and for speaking to the petitions that are before the House, which more than 1.7 million people have signed.
It has been quite an interesting debate and I have enjoyed sitting here listening to all of it. I have heard many passionate speeches with statements about not wanting to silence voters, about there being no mandate and no majority, about the Government not having a mandate, and about voters being silenced. If Members have those concerns, there is an opportunity to do something about it later this evening—have a general election and ask the country and electorate to make the decision about who they want to govern the country. It is somewhat telling that it is the Opposition who are likely to block that, although I hope, after some of the speeches we have heard today, that Opposition Members will get into the Aye Lobby this evening to vote for a general election. I hope they will vote for their constituents to have the loudest say of all—their vote in a general election.
Kevin Foster
Briefly, and then I will answer the hon. Gentleman’s other question.
Martin Whitfield
I am grateful for the Minister’s indication that he is seeking debate. On the off-chance of tonight’s vote being unsuccessful, would he consider revoking the Prorogation motion so that we could have the debate here?
Kevin Foster
No. The reasons for the Prorogation have been set out. To the arguments of those who have been shouting “Stop the coup!” and “Defend democracy!” but then do not want to have a general election, it must be said that I cannot think of any example of a coup in history where a free and fair general election was offered immediately afterward. That argument is absolute nonsense.
Coming on to the more serious question that the hon. Member for East Lothian (Martin Whitfield) asked, he decided to raise a bit of a scare story about what would happen for an EU citizen coming to our border on 1 November. Luckily, he can visit the Government website; it is being promoted now and he can have a good read of it afterward. There is a section on crossing the border after Brexit and another section on EU citizens moving to the UK after Brexit, which would have answered his question.
However, the hon. Gentleman will be pleased to know that, as people come across the border on 1 November, which was the example he gave, nothing will change. They will still be able to use e-gates if they are travelling on a biometric passport, and will not face routine intentions testing. The website also goes on to say that those coming here between 31 October this year and 31 December next year will be able to move to the UK and live, study, work and access benefits and services as they do now. Bluntly, a simple Google search would have revealed all that interesting information, and I certainly encourage people who have queries to look on that website.
It has been pointed out in the debate that these petitions are clearly distinct from one another in what they ask of the Government. The first, from March 2019, calls on the Government to advise Her Majesty to prorogue Parliament. The second, launched last month, calls on the Government not to prorogue or dissolve Parliament unless and until the Government either revoke article 50 or seek a further extension. Like so much in Brexit, that makes it a debate where we cannot please everyone. In responding to these petitions, I will begin by setting out the process for proroguing Parliament, before turning to the specifics of the points made in the petitions.
Jeremy Lefroy
May I gently point out that there might be a way to please everyone, which is to prorogue for a shorter time, as I have suggested? A Prorogation for two or three weeks would be in accordance with previous precedent and allow the Queen’s Speech to be prepared while, at the same time, hon. Members would have more time to discuss all those matters. That is in addition to the international crises that may occur during this time. We are talking about more than five weeks here.
Kevin Foster
I always have great respect for my hon. Friend, but the Government have set out the period of Prorogation and the reason for it, which is the Queen’s Speech. I can reassure people that we will still be sitting for three weeks before the scheduled exit date and, as we have seen over recent days, it does not take long, if the House is minded, to pass a particular piece of legislation. There will still be ample and adequate time to debate Brexit and, as many would reflect on, we have certainly not been short of opportunities to do so over the past year.
Justin Madders
Can Minister indicate how many days the Government intend to schedule for debate of the withdrawal agreement Bill, assuming that we have one?
Kevin Foster
Of course, any discussion of the number of days will be a matter for the usual channels when and if a deal is agreed. Unlike my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy), the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) likes to shout, “No to no deal!”, but he regularly voted no to a deal earlier this year.
Prorogation is the normal end to a parliamentary Session. It remains a matter for the Prime Minister to advise the sovereign on, as it is a prerogative power. That has not changed since the Labour party was in Government. It is for the Government to determine the length of a parliamentary Session and to advise the Queen on the date for the state opening of Parliament. The state opening is marked by the Queen’s Speech, which sets out the programme of legislation the Government intend to pursue in the forthcoming parliamentary Session.
Normally, each parliamentary Session runs for a period of 12 months before Parliament is prorogued. The current parliamentary Session is an exception to the ordinary 12 months, as was touched on during the debate, with the last state opening of Parliament having taken place more than two years ago, on 21 June 2017. This has been the longest parliamentary Session for almost 400 years, far in excess of any of the others.
Kevin Foster
The Prime Minister set out in his statement on 2 September 2019 the many reasons why we want to have the Queen’s Speech on the date when we will be having it. The Government have committed to recruiting another 20,000 police officers, improving both national health service and schools funding, and completing 20 new hospital upgrades. It is to progress the Government’s agenda on these and many other fronts that the Prime Minister has sought to commence a new Session of Parliament with a Queen’s Speech on 14 October.
As I have touched on already, if Opposition Members are confident in their argument, they will have the chance tonight to take that debate out to the whole country, to go and face their constituents and explain their position on this subject. If many of them are thinking of voting no this evening, that will be a rather interesting contrast.
Kevin Foster
I will not give way for now; I will make progress.
Interestingly, senior Opposition MPs have been calling for a Queen’s Speech. The shadow Leader of the House has called for a new Session and a Queen’s Speech five times in five months, while the Shadow Chancellor called for a new session back in May. As I have said, the Government want to bring forward a strong domestic legislative agenda, and ending the parliamentary Session and bringing forward a Queen’s Speech is the legal and necessary way to deliver that.
It is worth pointing out, though, that the larger petition asks that Parliament is not dissolved. Parliament is only dissolved before a general election. The effect of a dissolution is that all business comes to an end and every seat in the House of Commons is vacated until a general election is held. The Prime Minister has been clear that an election should take place ahead of the European Council on 17 to 18 October. That would allow the Prime Minister, elected by the British people—either my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson) or the right hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn)—to go to that European Council and for a newly elected Parliament to be in a position to consider what is agreed, and hopefully to pass the withdrawal agreement Bill.
Colleagues will be aware that, as I have referred to several times, a motion for an early general election will be debated later today. They will have the opportunity to give a voice to their constituents, who they have repeatedly claimed in this debate will be silenced. They can give them the most powerful voice they have in this country—their vote in a general election. I look forward to seeing many of those hon. Members in the Aye Lobby. I hope that nobody will make what are, in some ways, contradictory arguments by shouting about defending democracy and stopping a coup, and then vote no on the biggest exercise of democracy that we can have in this country—a general election.
The Government’s position remains clear: we will not revoke article 50 or seek a further, pointless extension. The UK will leave the European Union on 31 October. I point out to some Opposition Members that there is no automatic right to extensions. An extension is not a solution in itself. After three years, merely kicking the can will not solve the problem.
The 17.4 million who voted to leave the EU represent the largest mandate ever given for any UK Government to deliver. Both main parties pledged to respect that result in the 2017 election, and now we must deliver on that pledge. The Prime Minister believes that Parliament must have time to consider further the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union, and to hold the Government to account. Parliament has sat ahead of the European Council and will sit for three weeks prior to exit day. That means there will be ample time to debate the UK’s leaving the EU in the coming weeks, on both sides of the summit on 17 October—ideally, with a mandate from the British people to resolve this matter.
The Government would prefer to leave the EU with a deal, and we are working in an energetic and determined way to achieve that. The Government are very willing to sit down with the Commission and EU member states to talk about what needs to be done to achieve that. If it is not possible to reach a deal, we will have to leave with no deal. The Government are preparing for that outcome, and further delay will only increase the sense of distrust that many in the public feel and the uncertainty that is so damaging to our economy.
We take note of all of the points that have been raised in the debate today, but the decision to prorogue Parliament is one for the Government, because Prorogation is a prerogative Act of the Crown, exercised on the advice of Ministers. Therefore, in responding to both of these petitions, I must be clear: it is for the Government to determine when is the appropriate time to bring about an end to a parliamentary Session and bring forward a Queen’s Speech.
The Queen’s Speech and the debate that follows form one of the great set-pieces of the parliamentary calendar, where the Government are rightly scrutinised and held to account. The decision to prorogue Parliament is one for the Government of the day to make, as it always has been. We have set out our reasons for doing so—to ensure that a fresh, new domestic legislative agenda is put before Parliament.
There are those who, in recent weeks, have claimed that they wanted to stop a coup, to defend democracy and to give people a say. Tonight, they have the chance to do just that, and to give the electorate the chance to pass its own judgment. If they do not, many voters across the country will conclude that those comments were as hollow as their pledges to respect the people’s vote in the referendum in 2016.
Paul Scully
It has been a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the second half of this debate, Mrs Main. I thank colleagues for their contributions.
Earlier today, the Taoiseach, after meeting our Prime Minister, said:
“If it comes to a request for an extension, I think the vast majority of countries around the table would prefer that there not be an extension. We would like to see this dealt with. If the UK is leaving, it should leave on the 31st of October.”
Pretty well every other debate that we have had over the last three years has boiled down to Brexit. We have failed over the last three years. What we are asking for by moving the Benn Bill, not proroguing Parliament and not having a general election continues our failure. Too many people in this place have caused Parliament’s failure, and we continue to fail. We are voting to continue to fail, because there is no clear plan as to what would be achieved by simply kicking this issue into the long grass to 31 January. That is not good enough for the vast majority of people in this country.
We have seen quotes used out of context for why Prorogation would not be a good idea if it were to kick this issue beyond 31 October. We have talked about the lack of ability to debate other issues, but I did not hear Members asking for recesses to be cancelled when it would have affected their holidays, at Easter or other recess periods in which the House was not sitting. There are always unfortunate events around the world that we can discuss and debate. We can raise them in a variety of ways, or we can stock them up, or we can recall the House.
Paul Scully
I think I only have two minutes, if my hon. Friend does not mind.
The no deal that people have been talking about is the default option in terms of article 50, but not of the Government, as we have heard. It is really important that we retain that in our minds. There are simple ways to avoid no deal. So far as we are concerned, we could have voted for the withdrawal agreement, which Opposition Members did not do, or we can now vote for an election, to try to unlock the situation ahead of 31 October, so that someone else could go to Brussels to ask for that extension that Opposition Members want.
However, 14 October has been determined as the date for the Queen’s Speech because we want to set out our domestic agenda. We want to set out our ambitions apart from Brexit over the next 12 months. It is so important that we do so; it is what members of the public are crying out for.
Question put,
That this House has considered e-petitions 269157 and 237487 relating to the prorogation of Parliament.
The Chair’s opinion as to the decision of the Question was challenged.
Question not decided (Standing Order No. 10(13)).
Written Statements
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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Asset Sale Disclosure: Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen)
I am informing the House of the sale of the remainder of a claim against Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander Limited (in administration) (“KSF”) acquired by the Government during the 2007-08 financial crisis. The Government’s claim was held by the financial services compensation scheme (“FSCS”) which compensated KSF depositors at the time of the financial crisis. This sale to Tavira Securities Limited generates proceeds of £17.8 million for the Exchequer. Metric Impact Sale proceeds £17.8 million Hold valuation Net present value of the assets if held to maturity using Green Book assumptions £9.9 million - £24.1 million Public sector net borrowing No impact Public sector net debt Improved by £17.8 million in 2019-20 Public sector net liabilities Improved by £2.3 million in 2019-20 Public sector net financial liabilities Improved by £2.3 million in 2019-20
Rationale
The Government acquired their claim in KSF to preserve financial stability. The administration of KSF has now been running for over nine years and there is comparatively little value remaining in the residual assets. The Exchequer has received £421 million of dividends prior to this sale. In addition, FSCS has repaid to the Exchequer £2.6 billion (plus interest of £146 million) which it borrowed at the time of the financial crisis to enable it to pay compensation for covered deposits in KSF.
Continuing to hold the claim until the administration of KSF concluded was considered, but this option was discounted as the analysis suggested a sale could achieve value for money and would free up FSCS and HM Treasury capacity previously used to manage the claim to pursue other work.
FSCS discussed the sale with a number of potential counterparties, having previously examined the market for selling claims. The counterparty selected offered the highest price.
The proceeds from this sale will reduce public sector net debt. This marks the conclusion of the Government’s and FSCS’s involvement in KSF.
Format and timing
The Government and FSCS concluded that this sale achieves value for money for the taxpayer having (i) conducted an analysis of whether market conditions were conducive for the sale of this asset; and (ii) conducted an assessment of the fair market value for the asset. The sale made use of a third party broker experienced in selling claims against insolvent companies, which was done to create competitive tension among potential ultimate buyers of the asset.
Fiscal impacts
I can confirm that the sale proceeds of £17.8 million are within the hold valuation range. In 2019-20 the sale reduces public sector net debt (PSND) by £17.8 million and public sector net liabilities (PSNL) and public sector net financial liabilities (PSNFL) by £2.3 million.
The impacts on the fiscal aggregates, in line with fiscal forecasting convention, are not discounted to present value. The net impacts of the sale on a selection of fiscal metrics are summarised as follows:
I will update the House of any further changes to the FSCS as necessary.
[HCWS1827]
School Funding
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Education (Gavin Williamson)
On 6 September 2019 I announced a review into special educational needs and disability (SEND) and the support available to children and young people. This will be a cross-Government review and is part of Government’s commitment to ensure that every child receives the best start in life, including those who need additional support because they have a special educational need or disability.
In 2014, the Government introduced significant, widely supported, reforms to improve and join up the support that children and young people with SEND receive. It is now time to review how that is working, make sure that we are supporting children and young people to reach their potential, and to take account of the lived experience of children and young people with SEND and of their parents. The review is about understanding what is happening across England for children, young people and their families and making sure money is being spent fairly, efficiently and effectively, and that the support available to children and young people is sustainable in future.
The review will look at:
the evidence on how the system can provide the highest quality support that enables children and young people with SEND to thrive and prepare for adulthood, including employment:
better helping parents to make decisions about what kind of support will be best for their child;
making sure support in different local areas is consistent, and that high-quality support is available across the country:
how we strike the right balance of state-funded provision across inclusive mainstream and specialist places;
aligning incentives and accountability for schools, colleges and local authorities to make sure they provide the best possible support for children and young people with SEND;
understanding what is causing the demand for education, health and care plans and;
ensuring that public money is spent in an efficient, effective and sustainable manner, placing a premium on securing high quality outcomes for those children and young people who need additional support.
The review will inform and support the Government commitment to revise and update the SEND Code of Practice before the end of 2020.
[HCWS1829]
School Funding
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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The Minister for School Standards (Nick Gibb)
Today I am confirming detailed aspects of schools and high needs funding arrangements for 2020-21. This follows a statement by the Secretary of State for Education on 3 September, which confirmed to Parliament that the funding for schools and high needs will, compared to 2019-20, rise by £2.6 billion for 2020-21, £4.8 billion for 2021-22, and £7.1 billion for 2022-23.
In 2020-21, this funding will be distributed using the schools and high needs national funding formulae (NFF). We will be publishing provisional NFF allocations at local authority and school level in October, including local authorities’ final primary and secondary units of funding for the schools block. Alongside this, in the usual way, we will publish technical documents setting out the detail underpinning the formulae. We will then publish final schools and high needs allocations for local authorities in the dedicated schools grant (DSG) in December.
The schools NFF for 2020-21 will continue to have the same factors as at present, and we will continue to implement the formula to address historic underfunding and move to a system where funding is based on need. The key aspects of the formula for 2020-21 are:
The minimum per pupil funding levels will be set at £3,750 for primary schools and £5,000 for secondary schools. The following year, in 2021-22, the primary minimum level will rise to £4,000.
The funding floor will be set at 1.84% per pupil, in line with the forecast GDP deflator, to protect per pupil allocations for all schools in real terms. This minimum increase in 2020-21 allocations will be based on the individual school’s NFF allocation in 2019-20.
Schools that are attracting their core NFF allocations will benefit from an increase of 4% to the formula’s core factors.
There will be no gains cap in the NFF, unlike the previous two years, so that all schools attract their full core allocations under the formula.
As previously set out, we will make a technical change to the mobility factor so that it allocates this funding using a formulaic approach, rather than on the basis of historic spend.
Growth funding will be based on the same methodology as this year, with the same transitional protection ensuring that no authority whose growth funding is unwinding will lose more than 0.5% of its 2019-20 schools block allocation.
The Secretary of State confirmed on 3 September the Government’s intention to move to a “hard” NFF for schools—where budgets will be set on the basis of a single, national formula. We recognise that this will represent a significant change and we will work closely with local authorities, schools and others to make this transition as smoothly as possible.
In 2020-21 local authorities will continue to have discretion over their schools funding formulae and, in consultation with schools, will ultimately determine allocations in their area. However, as a first step towards hardening the formula, from 2020-21 the Government will make the use of the national minimum per pupil funding levels, at the values in the school NFF, compulsory for local authorities to use in their own funding formulae.
In addition, two important restrictions will continue:
Local authorities will continue to set a minimum funding guarantee in local formulae, which in 2020-21 must be between +0.5% and +1.84%. This allows them to mirror the real terms protection in the NFF, which is the Government’s expectation.
Local authorities can only transfer up to 0.5% of their school block to other blocks of the DSG, with schools forum approval. To transfer more than this, or any amount without schools forum approval, they will have to make a request to the Department for Education, even if the same amount was agreed in the past two years.
The high needs NFF for 2020-21 will also have the same factors as at present. With over £700 million of additional funding, the formula will:
Ensure that every local authority will receive an increase of at least 8% per head of 2 to 18 population through the funding floor. This minimum increase in 2020-21 allocations will be based on local authorities’ high needs allocations in 2019-20, including the additional £125 million announced in December 2018.
Above this minimum increase, the formula will allow local authorities to see increases of up to 17%, again calculated on the basis of per head of population.
The teachers’ pay grant and teachers’ pension employer contributions grant will both continue to be paid separately from the NFF in 2020-21. We will publish the rates that determine the 2020-21 allocations in due course.
[HCWS1828]
Hurricane Dorian in the Bahamas
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs and First Secretary of State (Dominic Raab)
In the wake of Hurricane Dorian, my thoughts are with all those who have lost their lives, their homes or have been injured in the Bahamas and elsewhere. Hurricane Dorian has caused untold damage to the islands of Abaco and Grand Bahama in particular. The Caribbean Disaster Emergency Management Agency (CDEMA) estimates that 15,000 people remain in need of urgent humanitarian assistance—a number which is less than was initially feared. The Government of the Bahamas have officially confirmed 43 deaths.
To help the people and the Government of the Bahamas, the UK Government have initially committed up to £1.5 million towards the immediate humanitarian response. This funding has been provided by the conflict, stability and security fund (CSSF), for the delivery of critical aid supplies by the Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA) Mounts Bay, and to support CDEMA in its work to co-ordinate the international response. RFA Mounts Bay was pre-positioned in the region ahead of hurricane season and is carrying specialist equipment and vital aid supplies, including hygiene kits, emergency shelter kits and water. The Royal Navy Wildcat helicopter on board is airlifting supplies, conducting reconnaissance flights and assessing damage. The UK was amongst the first to provide support and we are now glad to see that the international response is ramping up.
We have deployed a team to the Bahamas to help co-ordinate the emergency response and ensure aid gets where it is needed. We have also deployed additional consular staff to Nassau. They, alongside Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) staff in London, are working with the Bahamian authorities and international partners to provide support to British nationals, and to scope what, if any, further assistance may be needed.
The number of British nationals in need of support is anticipated to be low. It is low season for tourists and we estimate there were 200-400 British nationals in the worst affected areas. As the only European mission in the Bahamas, the British High Commission in Nassau has legal responsibility to provide consular support for EU nationals. The FCO has been regularly updating its travel advice.
The British High Commission in Nassau is working closely with the United Nations, the United States, Canada, NGOs and other partners in the region to support the Bahamian Government. Early support was also provided by the Governor’s Office in Turks and Caicos, which is a British overseas territory. The Cayman Islands have also sent a helicopter (jointly funded with the FCO).
The FCO, Department for International Development, Ministry of Defence, and other Departments and agencies have worked closely to prepare for the hurricane season. Since 2017, the Met Office has developed improved advisory arrangements for the Caribbean, and we have been working closely to gain a better understanding of the technical data as tropical storms develop. A team of experts from across Government was tracking this storm from its development as a tropical depression over the August bank holiday. This meant the UK Government were well prepared to respond quickly in support of local authorities with our resources pre-deployed in the region. We will continue to assess the situation.
Any MPs who may be concerned about the welfare of particular UK nationals in the Bahamas can contact the MPs’ hotline, details of which have been emailed to all MPs’ offices.
[HCWS1822]
Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (vCJD) Risk Reduction Measures: Revised Advice
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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The Minister for Care (Caroline Dinenage)
I would like to inform the House that the Government, along with the Scottish Government and the Welsh Government, will be updating some specific variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (vCJD) precautionary measures in England, Scotland and Wales.
In 2004, the Government were advised to establish precautionary vCJD risk reduction measures in the UK, acknowledging the unknown risks of vCJD to recipients of UK plasma and platelets. A number of measures were introduced, such as the introduction of leucodepletion of all blood components and the deferral of previously transfused donors. These specific risk reduction measures are highly effective and will remain in place to maintain the safety of the UK blood supply.
An additional risk reduction measure adopted involved the treatment of patients born on or after 1 January 1996 with imported plasma and/or apheresis platelets. This was to reduce the risk of exposure to components that were thought to have potentially increased their risk of developing vCJD.
Over the last 15 years, accrued scientific evidence has indicated that the risk of vCJD through the transfusion of UK plasma or platelets is much lower than initially thought; there have been no known transfusion transmissions of vCJD from any blood components since the leucodepletion process was introduced. In March 2019, the independent advisory committee for the safety of blood, tissues and organs (SaBTO) reviewed the scientific evidence and operational practices, engaged with stakeholders, and recommended that some specific risk reduction measures, requiring the use of imported plasma and apheresis platelets for individuals born on or after 1 January 1996 and/or with TTP, be withdrawn.
SaBTO’s final advice has been published on the gov.uk website, providing a comprehensive analysis of the risk attributed with updating these vCJD risk reduction measures. This advice is available online at: https://www. gov.uk/government/collections/sabto-reports-and-guidance-documents.
Upon receiving this expert advice, the Minister for Care has approved the use of domestic plasma and pooled platelets for patients born on or after 1 January 1996 or with TTP. Other risk reduction measures will remain in place, including leucodepletion, deferral of previously transfused donors and a ban on the manufacture of plasma derived medicinal products from plasma sourced in the UK.
NHS Blood and Transplant already sources 94% of plasma from UK donors and increasing domestic plasma use will provide further benefits relating to equitable provision of blood components, reduced operational complexity for hospitals and increased accessibility at the point of use. Clinicians who wish to prescribe and source commercial imported plasma products for patients, based on patient need and clinical preference, will continue to be able to do so in accordance with local and national guidelines.
The Minister for Care has now directed NHS Blood and Transplant (BT) to begin increasing domestic plasma acquisition in England through a managed, incremental transition. The Scottish Government and the Welsh Government have also asked their respective blood services to begin implementing SaBTO’s recommendation. In Northern Ireland, any decision on SaBTO’s recommendation to update vCJD risk reduction measures will be deferred until a Minister is in post.
[HCWS1821]
Immigration Rules: Statement of Changes
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Seema Kennedy)
My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is today laying before the House a statement of changes to the immigration rules (HC 2631). Copies will be made available in the Vote Office and on gov.uk.
I have made a change to the immigration rules which will reduce costs and bureaucracy for doctors, dentists, nurses and midwives looking to come and work in the UK and support our NHS. This change will ensure that these medical professionals, who have passed a robust English language test, which includes identity checks, and are required to register with their regulatory body, do not have to sit a separate, lower level immigration English language test. This will support the Government’s desire to continue to attract the best and brightest global talent to the UK and to encourage migrants to integrate into society, without compromising the safety of those using our health services.
The United Kingdom is committed to providing protection to those who need it, in accordance with its international obligations. Those who fear persecution should however claim asylum in the first safe country they reach and not put their lives at risk by making unnecessary and dangerous journeys to the UK. Illegal migration from safe countries undermines our efforts to help those most in need.
To support these principles, the immigration rules already provide for inadmissibility processes, under which we can decline to substantively consider the asylum claim of a claimant in the UK and remove them to a safe third country, provided the claimant has, or could have claimed asylum there, has refugee status there, or has some other relevant connection to the third country such that it would be reasonable for them to return there. This process requires the co-operation of the safe third country.
Some of these rules are drafted in the context of the UK’s membership of the EU. As such, we are making minor amendments to the rules, to allow us to use inadmissibility processes for broadly the same range of case types once we leave the EU.
Finally, we are also introducing wider changes through these immigration rules to appendix EU which sets out the rules governing the EU settlement scheme (EUSS). This provides the basis for EU, EEA and Swiss citizens, and their family members, to apply for UK immigration status which they will require to remain here permanently after the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union.
The changes make revised provision for access to the EUSS for the family members of UK nationals returning with them from an EEA member state or Switzerland, having lived there together while the UK national exercised their free movement rights, in line with the announcement on such access made on 4 April 2019.
We expect the vast majority of EUSS applicants to be genuine, and for there to be little need for status granted under the EUSS to be cancelled at the border or curtailed in-country. However, it is appropriate that, to safeguard the integrity of the EUSS, its status should be covered by some of the same powers as other forms of immigration leave, so that appropriate action can be taken where necessary. The changes therefore amend part 9 of the immigration rules to provide additional grounds for the cancellation and curtailment of EUSS status and leave acquired having travelled to the UK with an EUSS family permit, e.g. on grounds this was obtained by deception (such as where the person had claimed to be the family member of an EEA citizen when they were not). The changes also amend part 9 to provide discretionary grounds for EUSS status and leave acquired having travelled to the UK with an EUSS family permit, to be cancelled at the border, in a “no-deal” scenario, on the grounds that cancellation is conducive to the public good, as a result of the person’s post-exit conduct.
The changes provide a right of administrative review where status granted under EUSS is cancelled at the border because the person no longer meets the requirements for that status, e.g. where, as a non-EEA citizen granted pre-settled status under the EUSS, they have ceased to be the family member of an EEA citizen. Such cancellation could only occur where the person no longer met any of the bases for eligibility for status under the EUSS. The changes also bring the time frame for applying for an administrative review under the EUSS in line with all other administrative reviews in cases where the applicant is detained pending their removal from the UK, which will help ensure detention is kept to a minimum.
[HCWS1823]
Towns Fund
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government (Robert Jenrick)
On 27 July 2019 the Prime Minister announced that the £3.6 billion towns fund would support an initial 100 town deals across England.
The fund is part of the Government plan to level up our regions and create a more united country, one where people throughout the UK can benefit from our shared prosperity.
This Government are committed to decentralise funding and decisions away from Whitehall. We have invested in the growth of local economies and devolving powers through agreeing ambitious city and growth deals, devolving more than £9 billion of funding to local enterprise partnerships and introducing eight metro mayors in England.
However, many towns have not benefited from city-focused investment and we know that for the country to succeed, every place must play its part.
Last week I announced the 100 places I will be inviting to develop proposals for town deals. These include towns that are birthplaces of industry, that have been centres of commerce for centuries and that are bastions of the maritime economy along our coastline.
These are famous towns with great histories that unfortunately do not feel they have received benefits from the growth we are seeing elsewhere in the UK economy.
That is why we will work with these places to develop proposals for transformative investments in infrastructure, skills and culture through the towns fund. These deals will include the new homes, improved transport and broadband connectivity that towns need, as well as social and cultural infrastructure, from libraries and art centres to parks and vital public services. These investments will boost productivity and sustainably raise living standards, bringing communities together and giving places new energy and life.
We know that every place is different. That is why we will work with towns across the country to listen and give greater power to communities when developing innovative proposals for their area. I want Government to better understand the local assets towns have and the challenges they face. It will be through the towns fund that we can support these places to harness their unique strengths for future growth and community resilience.
We want to make sure that all parts of the UK can benefit from resources to boost productivity and living standards. We are in ongoing discussions with colleagues across Her Majesty’s Government about how we can better support our towns in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and make sure areas throughout the UK share in the opportunities of Brexit.
I will publish a towns fund prospectus shortly in order to provide greater detail on how the fund will operate. This document will set out eligibility criteria for funding and the rigorous process by which proposals will be considered, including our expectations for community involvement and maximising the impact of spending. We will then begin working with places across the country to support them in developing their proposals for the future. Their best years lie ahead of them.
The list of places I announced last week can be found at: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/ 5d722667e5274a09881c0c58/list-of-100-places.pdf
[HCWS1830]
Ebola Outbreak
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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The Secretary of State for International Development (Alok Sharma)
Since the House was last updated on the response to the Ebola outbreak in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) in July, sadly the situation on the ground has become even more grave—despite the brave and tireless dedication of frontline responders.
I therefore want to assure the House that the UK—in partnership with communities, local authorities and trusted international partners—is doing everything it can to save lives.
Sadly, we have recently seen new cases in areas previously unaffected by the outbreak. In August, we saw cases emerge for the first time in the province of South Kivu. And in July, a number of cases were detected in Goma, a city of 2 million people on the border with Rwanda, prompting the World Health Organisation to declare a public health emergency of international concern.
On Thursday 29 August, a nine-year-old Congolese girl was screened as a suspected case as she and her mother crossed the border from DRC. Tragically, she was confirmed as positive with Ebola and passed away. This is the seventh Ebola outbreak in Uganda since the year 2000 and the Ugandan authorities once again deserve praise for their swift response.
When I visited Uganda last month, I saw first-hand how UK aid is helping guard against the spread of Ebola. The border screening point and treatment centre, constructed with UK support, identified the above case.
The vital importance and effectiveness of health workers and communities—and of UK aid support for them—was shown again in rapidly identifying and confirming the case of the nine-year- old girl and appropriately moving her for isolation and care. Trained frontline workers and community awareness are crucial to mapping, monitoring and vaccinating potential cases. Thankfully, no further suspect cases in Uganda have yet been identified; although follow-up monitoring and surveillance continues.
Despite successes, hard work and dedication, the outbreak is still not under control. The death toll recently passed 2,000. We will not succeed in getting Ebola under control unless the international community as a whole steps up and supports the response. The world cannot afford to ignore Ebola, as it could spread further, making it a threat to us all.
That is why, in August, I announced an additional £8 million for neighbouring countries most at risk of the spread of Ebola, namely Uganda, South Sudan, Burundi and Rwanda. This funding will deliver more temperature checks at border crossings—which have been so crucial in Uganda. It will also support Ebola treatment units and provide clean water and sanitation. This is in addition to the £45 million that UK aid has already provided for tackling the outbreak in the DRC and a previous £15 million for regional preparedness.
The British people can be proud of the UK’s leading role in the response. We are the leading supporter of regional preparedness, and one of the largest donors to the overall response, alongside the US, ECHO and the World Bank. We are saving lives and bringing this outbreak to a close.
Despite the gravity of the situation, there is some cause for optimism. More than 200,000 people have now been vaccinated against the disease, which is a truly remarkable effort. This highly effective vaccine was developed with UK support during the latter stages of the west Africa outbreak, in 2013-16.
Moreover, recent results from the trials of therapeutic treatments have also shown positive results, showing that we can treat this disease if it is detected early enough. Around 900 people have recovered from the virus and more could stand to benefit.
Investment in research and development is a crucial part of the Department’s work. I am extremely proud of the world-leading and innovative efforts we are supporting in this area. But if we are to tackle the spread of the disease, then more must be done. We must help support the longer-term strengthening of health systems around the world. However, more immediately, the international community needs to step up to support the response in the DRC. There is absolutely no room for complacency.
In recent months the response has been underfunded by the international community. This has had a detrimental impact on response activities on the ground: without funding, frontline responders are unable to deliver life-saving support such as treating patients, tracing and vaccinating their contacts, and burying the dead safely.
The UK has consistently pushed for other countries to step up their financial support. Although more commitments have now been given, we will continue to press our friends and partners for stronger action, including in New York later this month during the United Nations General Assembly. We must also make sure that funds are made available quickly and go where they are most needed, as set out in the recently published fourth strategic response plan, which is the joint UN and Government of DRC plan to tackle the disease.
As I saw so clearly during my visit to Uganda, we must break down the barriers between the international response and local communities. Dispelling the myths surrounding the virus is critical in ensuring that patients are both able and willing to seek treatment.
UK support is therefore funding a wide range of activities, from employing Ebola survivors to talk to communities about treatment, to engaging with local religious leaders to foster trust. UK aid has funded safe and dignified burials, allowing families to have their loved ones buried in line with traditional practices, while protecting themselves from the virus.
But mistrust remains, complicated by the fact that the outbreak is found in a region afflicted by decades of conflict and violence. The scale of the challenge cannot be underestimated.
Finally, I want to pay tribute to the health workers who risk their lives daily to combat the spread of this terrible disease. We have seen health workers attacked and even killed for doing their job, and I am sure that the whole House will agree that we must condemn these deplorable acts of violence.
At its heart, this must be a community-led and owned response, but with strong financial and technical support from the international community. Although the risk of Ebola to the UK population remains very low, we all know that diseases do not respect borders. I can therefore assure the House that Britain remains committed to supporting the effort to combat Ebola for as long as it takes to end the outbreak.
[HCWS1826]
Government Structures for Brexit
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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The Prime Minister (Boris Johnson)
I am making this statement to confirm ministerial responsibilities for delivering Brexit.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is responsible for practical preparations within the UK for leaving the European Union on 31 October, whether that is without a deal or with the new deal the Government are seeking. The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union is responsible for direct negotiations with the European Union. This includes both the new deal the Government are seeking, and our future relationship with the European Union beyond 31 October, if we leave without a deal.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union will be supported by officials in the Cabinet Office and the Department for Exiting the European Union equally across the Brexit agenda. Officials will retain their existing reporting lines with no transfers between Departments. For the purpose of delivering Brexit they will operate in a single collective group under the Department for Exiting the European Union permanent secretary. As a result, it has not been necessary for any staff to have formally transferred between Departments.
[HCWS1825]
Universal Credit: Reporting Childcare Costs
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mims Davies)
Today the Universal Credit (Childcare Costs and Minimum Income Floor) (Amendment) Regulations 2019 will be laid, as well as the equivalent Northern Ireland regulations.
Universal credit is the biggest change of the welfare system since it was created. It is a modern, flexible, personalised benefit reflecting the rapidly changing world of work.
Up to 85% of childcare costs can be reimbursed through universal credit. However, previously those reporting costs generally had to do so in the same month-long universal credit assessment period in which they were incurred for these costs to be reimbursed.
In order to ensure that busy parents have the maximum opportunity to recover childcare costs, we are laying legislation today to give extra time for working parents to claim back childcare costs. We are doubling the period during which those who claim support for childcare costs in universal credit can report their costs—they will now have an additional month to do so.
This extension for reporting costs provides parents with more flexibility and could help claimants with two or more children avoid losing out on more than £1,100 per month. Costs can be submitted online, and those in work while in receipt of universal credit can apply for up to £646.35 per month if they have one child and up to £1,108.40 for two or more children.
In addition to the childcare support provided in universal credit, the Government also provide a wide range of childcare support for families, including 30 free hours for three and four-year-olds of working parents, 15 free hours for disadvantaged two-year-olds and for all three and four-year-olds, and tax-free childcare.
[HCWS1824]
Grand Committee
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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The Marquess of Lothian
That the Grand Committee takes note of the recent work of the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament.
The Marquess of Lothian (Con)
My Lords, it is a great pleasure to introduce this debate on the work of the committee since 2015. These debates used to be a lot more regular, but, for some reason, this is, I think, our first since that time—so a very large body of work is in front of us if we wish to discuss it. I say “we” because your Lordships’ House is represented on the committee not only by me but by the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, who will share with me today the introduction to the work of the committee, which since 2013 has been independent and self-tasking.
The ISC oversees the seven organisations that make up the UK intelligence community. As members, we are all subject to the Official Secrets Act and are cleared to have sight of highly classified information. We meet in private and all evidence we take is given in complete confidence—trust in which confidence is essential to the highly sensitive security subjects that we work on. Noble Lords who follow our work in some of the reports that we put forward will realise that large portions of it consist of asterisks. I am not sure how one expresses an asterisk orally, so today I shall avoid getting into those areas of detail.
The ISC oversees the whole gamut of the work of our intelligence and security agencies, from international counterterrorism, Northern Ireland-related terrorism and cybersecurity to oversight of administration and expenditure. We examine their priorities and how they allocate efforts and resources. Issues such as recruitment and staffing are important, because intelligence, even in this technological age, is essentially still a people business. We need therefore to make sure that we have the highest-quality people.
Our remit allows us to look at the security and intelligence aspects of the subjects that we investigate, which by definition cannot fall within the remit of parliamentary Select Committees. In this debate, I propose, along with the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, to look at the main work carried out since September 2015. We have agreed to share this task between us.
I shall start with our report on the UK lethal drone strike, which we published in April 2017. In it, the committee addressed intelligence issues relating to the conflict in Syria, and in particular the lethal UK drone strike against Reyaad Kahn on 21 August 2015. This strike was exceptional in that it was the first time that the UK had conducted a lethal drone strike against a terrorist target outside of participation in a military campaign.
In investigating the strike against Reyaad Khan, the committee’s focus was on the intelligence on him and the resulting assessment of the threat he posed. Other parliamentary committees had considered the legal, policy and military aspects of the strike, but were unable to scrutinise the intelligence basis, given that the intelligence was highly classified.
Our committee did not seek to reach conclusions as to the legal basis for the strike but was able to determine that, in terms of the severity of the threat posed by Reyaad Khan, the intelligence reports and assessments we were shown would suggest that Khan was a prolific recruiter and a successful attack planner. While we were in no doubt that Reyaad Khan posed a very serious threat to the United Kingdom, there was nevertheless a question as to how the threat was finally quantified and assessed.
Regrettably, the committee was unable to consider how Ministers made that assessment, since we were denied sight of the key ministerial submission. This was despite the fact that our work is carried out within the ring of secrecy—and anyway, where necessary for national security reasons, is always subject to redactions. This failure to provide what we considered to be the relevant documents was profoundly disappointing, and we hope that the Government will give serious consideration to changing this approach in the future, because oversight depends on primary evidence. It is therefore essential that the Government open up the ministerial decision-making process to secure scrutiny on matters of such seriousness.
I turn now to our detainee report, which we published in June 2018. This was a major inquiry into detainee mistreatment and rendition during the period 2015 to 2018, which we were originally invited to undertake by the Government. In the end, we published two reports: the first covered the period 2001 to 2010; and the second, the current situation since the publication of the Consolidated Guidance in 2010. This entailed the committee taking 50 hours of oral evidence, reviewing 40,000 original documents and devoting over 30,000 staff hours to investigating the actions of the UK agencies and Defence Intelligence in respect of detainees and rendition.
Our report on the historic issue of detainee mistreatment and rendition concerned the period 2001 to 2010. It contained 27 conclusions and outlined some serious concerns. While we did not find any evidence that UK agency officers or Defence Intelligence personnel directly carried out physical mistreatment of detainees, we did, for example, find incidents where UK personnel witnessed at first hand a detainee being mistreated by others, or were told by detainees that they had been mistreated by others. Some cases were investigated, but not all. The committee also found cases where United Kingdom personnel continued to supply questions or intelligence to liaison services, even after they knew or suspected mistreatment. There were also instances where UK personnel received intelligence from liaison services that had been obtained from detainees whom they knew had been mistreated.
The inquiry uncovered new material that had not been presented to or considered by any previous inquiry or review. However, we wished to examine certain matters in greater detail; in order to, we wanted to hear from officers who were involved at the time. In 2017 the Government, much to our regret, denied us access to those individuals, and we were therefore able to publish only the information we had found up to that point, leaving, in our view, our report sadly incomplete.
Turning now to the current report, covering the period from 2010 onwards, one of our key recommendations concerned what is generally referred to as the Consolidated Guidance. We have consistently suggested, since it was first published in 2010, that it should be renamed. It is not guidance, and to call it so was misleading. We made this point in 2018, and I am delighted that it has now been renamed Principles. So we made some progress there. The new Principles are overseen by the Investigatory Powers Commissioner and reflect the important changes we recommended in our report. These include, for example: specific reference to extraordinary rendition, alongside torture and what is known as CIDT—cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment; the application of the Principles to joint units and non-state actors; regular review; and that the agencies must follow the spirit of the Principles and not just the letter. This is a major step and it was most encouraging to see that there has been real change as a result of our recommendations.
The story of rendition has been less positive. Our inquiry found that there had been little improvement since we last reported in 2007. There is still no clear policy, and not even agreement on who has responsibility for preventing United Kingdom complicity in unlawful rendition. It was particularly surprising that Her Majesty’s Government have still failed to introduce a process to ensure that allies cannot use United Kingdom territory for rendition purposes without prior permission. Given the clear shift in focus signalled by the present United States Administration, the current reliance on retrospective assurances and the voluntary provision of passenger information are completely unsatisfactory.
Further, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office position that the United Kingdom is absolved from complicity in permitting transit or refuelling of a possible rendition flight because it has no knowledge of what the aircraft has done or is doing, is not acceptable to us. We are unconvinced that the Government recognise the seriousness of rendition and the potential for the United Kingdom to be complicit in actions which may lead to torture or CIDT.
Our report made a formal request that the Government should publish their policy on rendition within three months of publication of this report: that was September 2018. Sadly, we are still waiting, and we find the Government’s bland assertion that there is no need to be wholly unsatisfactory. It is to be hoped that the Government appreciate that, where they refuse evidence, bar witnesses or delay in making information available, they merely enhance suspicions in the minds of those who believe that the Government have something to hide.
While the committee’s primary output tends to be through its inquiries, we also address intelligence issues as and when they arise. In relation to Syria, for example, we examined the intelligence that led to the decision to conduct co-ordinated strikes, undertaken by British, French and American forces, on three sites in Syria on 13 April last year, with the aim of degrading the Syrian regime’s chemical weapons capability. We examined summaries of the evidence that had been considered by the Government, including assessments by the Joint Intelligence Committee and its post-strike analysis.
While the committee was reassured that the intelligence available supported this action by the United Kingdom against the Syrian regime following its strike on Douma, we also identified a worrying divergence in views within the intelligence community on the impact of the strikes. On this occasion, we reported our findings in our annual report of 2017-18, which was published in November 2018. The ability of the committee to probe and question the intelligence community on matters such as these is, I believe, invaluable to the agencies and to related organisations. It proves that robust oversight is an important mechanism for them, as well as for the wider public.
These reports show the breadth of the committee’s work over the three years since 2015. We have since been working on a number of other inquiries. While I cannot go into detail regarding the committee’s current work programme, I am able to confirm that our inquiry into Russian activity against the United Kingdom is ongoing. The committee agreed to begin this inquiry in 2017 and we commissioned evidence from the Government in December 2017. The poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal in March 2018, and the subsequent attribution of the attack to Russia by the United Kingdom, highlighted the importance of this inquiry. We irritatingly did not receive the final evidence until 30 June 2018 and could only begin taking oral evidence that July. The committee nevertheless hopes to publish its Russia inquiry shortly.
In conclusion, I would like to take the opportunity to thank the committee’s staff, who work so diligently to provide expert support to the committee, and indeed to pay tribute to our chairman, the right honourable Dominic Grieve MP, for steering the committee through what has been a busy and productive period. I believe that we have achieved much. However, the committee’s resources are stretched and we are woefully underresourced by comparison with our international counterparts. This is an issue that we have been keen to discuss with the Prime Minister. It is a matter of deep regret to members that, despite making a number of requests, we have not had a meeting with the Prime Minister since 2014. We used to have them annually.
Finally, I would like to end by paying tribute to the men and women who work in our intelligence community. They work tirelessly, often under enormous pressure and in very challenging circumstances, on behalf of us all. We applaud the vital work that those in the intelligence community are doing to safeguard our national interests. We are grateful for their dedication and courage. We owe them not only our thanks but our undying admiration and respect. I beg to move.
Lord Anderson of Ipswich (CB)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, not only for this debate and the fine speech we have just heard but for his Global Strategy Forum, at which I have learned so much. The debate is timely—indeed, it is overdue, considering that, according to Andrew Defty, an authority on intelligence oversight to whose research I am indebted, the House of Commons last debated the ISC in 2011 and the House of Lords in 2010.
The security and intelligence agencies are only peripherally relevant to the everyday work of the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, in which capacity I had the privilege of serving for six years until 2017. However, from 2014 I was commissioned by the Government to conduct a number of extra reviews focused on the work of the SIAs. These include A Question of Trust, a comprehensive report on investigatory powers, the Bulk Powers Review, which assessed the operational case for bulk collection of data, and a quality assurance of the steps proposed by MI5 and Counter Terrorism Policing to improve intelligence-handling procedures after the terrorist attacks of 2017. In each of those assignments I drew on the work of the ISC and found its members and staff unfailingly helpful. I declare a further interest as a miniature oversight mechanism myself—the Investigatory Powers Commissioner for Guernsey and Jersey.
There are many reasons why effective oversight of security and intelligence agencies is needed, even when those organisations have a strong internal compliance culture, which is what really counts. Informed scrutiny can identify systemic errors and ingrained misconceptions, challenge groupthink and bring different perspectives to complex issues. At the political level, it can help formulate and scrutinise policy in relation to such delicate issues as 5G suppliers and offensive cyber. By pressing for, and indeed providing, an appropriate degree of transparency—perhaps in this field it should be called “translucency”—active and forward-looking oversight can promote informed public discussion of such controversial matters as the ethics of intelligence, the exercise of bulk powers, the efficacy and intrusiveness of current and future data-driven intelligence techniques and the impact of technologies such as blockchain and quantum computing. Such discussions should be conducted dispassionately on the basis of trustworthy information and assessments provided in good time. That is far preferable, not least for the agencies themselves, to what we saw in the aftermath of the Snowden revelations: stolen or leaked information prompting an emotional debate and a drop-off in co-operation, causing potential harm to national security.
More generally, detailed and unsparing scrutiny can serve to reassure an often suspicious public that the money and intrusive powers devoted to intelligence work are properly used. I refer not only to the British public—who are rightly conscious of our fine intelligence heritage and warm as instinctively to the history of Bletchley Park and Operation Double Cross as they do to the fables of James Bond—but to the international public. If the United Kingdom is successfully to defend before national or supranational courts its drone strikes, data sharing or covert interception of international cables, or indeed to secure the data adequacy determination from the EU that is likely to be required after Brexit, assurances from government are not enough; independent and hard-hitting assessments are called for.
The positive findings of such independent assessments were helpful to the Government in the recent Big Brother Watch judgment of the European Court of Human Rights on bulk collection of data by intelligence agencies. The United Kingdom was rewarded also for the massive exercise in transparency, independent approval of warrants and beefed-up oversight that was the Investigatory Powers Act 2016, when the UN’s Special Rapporteur on Privacy, Professor Joe Cannataci, opined last year after a fact-finding visit that, after what he called,
“significant recent improvement to privacy laws and mechanisms”,
the UK,
“is now co-leading with that tiny minority of EU states which have made a successful effort to update their legislative and oversight framework dealing with surveillance”,
and,
“can now justifiably reclaim its leadership role in Europe as well as globally”—
not bad from a UN rapporteur.
Parliamentary oversight of intelligence, which is now standard in most democracies, brings another important benefit: it ensures that the parliamentarians who conduct it, on the basis of access to highly classified material, are sufficiently versed in intelligence matters to understand the implications of proposals that come before Parliament, and thus to speak with authority on the issues under debate. Nor, I need hardly say, would the interests of the agencies in any way be served were we to see the appointment of compliant rather than critical overseers.
I spoke once to a Green Party member of the G10 Commission, the German parliamentary body responsible for the scrutiny of surveillance warrants. I have no doubt that his initial reservations, and the way in which he had overcome them when shown the evidence, had been helpful in influencing his colleagues and in formulating his party’s policy along practical and realistic lines.
Noble Lords will be pleased to hear that there is no time for me to address the form, mandate, membership, powers or resources of the ISC. However, it seems to me that, since the reforms of 2013 for which its then chair Sir Malcolm Rifkind fought so hard, the ISC has compared favourably in a number of these respects with its parliamentary counterparts elsewhere in the Five Eyes.
The ISC’s recent work has been, to my mind, generally impressive, both in itself and as an accompaniment to the other principal UK mechanisms for intelligence oversight: courts and tribunals, including, in particular, the specialist Investigatory Powers Tribunal, and the super-regulator and approval mechanism for warrants—IPCO—which is now assisted by a high-powered technology advisory panel, which has been given an energetic and successful start by the outgoing Investigatory Powers Commissioner, the appellate judge Sir Adrian Fulford.
The ISC has looked at subjects with strong policy elements to which a parliamentary body is particularly well suited: for example, in its privacy and security report and its current inquiry into national security issues relating to China. It has also displayed a forensically detailed approach, on a smaller canvas, in its reports into the intelligence relating to the murder of Lee Rigby, lethal drone strikes in Syria and the changes required after the 2017 attacks in London and Manchester. Not everyone will agree that a parliamentary body is best equipped for such close work. After all, even the international benchmark in this area, the 6,700-page American enquiry into CIA torture, was adopted in 2012 only after a vote on which members of the Senate Intelligence Committee divided largely on party lines.
The ISC has avoided such partisanship, so far as I know, but in other respects its wings have been clipped. Though there is much of value in the two detainee treatment and rendition reports of last year, the Government’s refusal to give it access to those who had been on the ground at the time prevented the ISC, in its own words, conducting an authoritative inquiry or producing a credible report. If the ISC is to be hobbled by such a restrictive interpretation of its powers—and I hope it is not—the case is strengthened for entrusting future reports of such a forensic nature to a serving or former judge, whether within IPCO or outside it, with the ISC concentrating its efforts on the policy-heavy subjects for which its political expertise gives it a comparative advantage.
I shall end with a few suggestions which I hope the Minister might be prepared to consider. First, something must be done to improve the speed with which new members are appointed. In the three years 2015 to 2017, a period much marked by terrorism in the UK, France and elsewhere, the ISC was not constituted for almost 12 months. This is plainly unacceptable. Secondly, the ISC’s reports should be published without delay and responded to fully by the Government. Delays in publication are said to have become worse in recent years, and the publication of responses to annual reports has been patchy. Thirdly, as I have already indicated, the ISC needs to be able to see any relevant document and to interview any relevant witness in closed session. As the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, said that must include access to relevant ministerial advice.
Fourthly, the resources of IPCO could be more often requested and made available to supplement those of the ISC staff. Those resources include the reports of the expert technology advisory panel, which I understand is proving a most useful addition to IPCO’s armoury, and the services of IPCO’s expert inspectors who, among other things, know the agencies from the inside. Fifthly, the ISC should do more to invite genuine dialogue with civil society groups, as IPCO has done, for example, in relation to its work on the Consolidated Guidance. They should, after all, be on the same side when it comes to holding the intelligence agencies to account. People active in international NGOs in this area have told me that this is more evident when dealing with parliamentary committees in some other western European states than it is here.
Sixthly, oversight mechanisms such as the ISC and IPCO need the involvement of lively minds from outside the worlds of security and the Civil Service. The refusal of security clearance to such persons should be capable of appeal to the Security Vetting Appeals Panel, as it is when clearance is refused to a civil servant or a contractor. That is the best way of avoiding the real or apparent conflict of interest inherent in a potential overseer being refused clearance by the bodies which they are applying to oversee.
Seventhly, any legal or practical gaps in oversight, whether by the ISC, IPCO or others, need to be identified and remedied, not as an ad hoc response to litigation, as is so often the case, but on a considered basis. Candidates for consideration are: intelligence work abroad that does not need authorisation under Section 7 of the Intelligence Services Act and is not caught, for example, by the Fulford principles; enhanced use of machine learning, artificial intelligence and behavioural analytics, particularly when data is managed, as is increasingly the case, outside the SIAs’ own systems; and the use of overt surveillance and insufficiently regulated techniques such as facial recognition, gait recognition and lip-reading technology. Many of those techniques are of course used not just by the SIAs but by the police and others: oversight, similarly, should not be exercised in silos, and the remit of the relevant bodies should reflect this—as indeed is the case with IPCO.
Finally, the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee of the House of Commons recently recommended that Parliament’s committees should be given access where possible to the most relevant information that has informed the Government’s decisions about foreign affairs, military action and intelligence. This will also need consideration.
I hope that it is no longer the case, as according to the Snowden documents it once was, that intelligence officials could present it as a “selling point” to the National Security Agency that “We have a light oversight regime compared to the US”. Good progress has been made in recent years, by legislative advances in 2013 and 2016 and by the enhanced professionalism of oversight work. Few of us welcome our auditors with unalloyed pleasure, and, given the vital importance of the work that our intelligence personnel do, scrutiny should be no more resource-intensive than necessary. But, in my judgment, the SIAs are sincere when they tell me that the continued acceptance of what they do by the public, both here and abroad, depends on active, thorough and forward-looking oversight. I commend the ISC and our other oversight mechanisms for their first-class work and look forward to hearing any immediate reaction that the Minister may have to my suggestions for improving them further.
Lord Janvrin (CB)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow my noble friend Lord Anderson of Ipswich, and I pay tribute to his work both as the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation and on the extra reviews that he carried out during and after that period. I too thank the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, for securing this debate. It is a long time since we have been able to have this kind of discussion. I regret that it is not on the Floor of the House, but I welcome this opportunity to put on open record some comments on the recent work of the committee, which inevitably conducts its business in secret.
Before doing that, I follow directly from where the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, ended his speech, by putting on record my admiration for and gratitude to all those who work in the intelligence community. The noble Marquess mentioned the dedication and courage of those working under great pressure and in challenging and sometimes dangerous circumstances. I wholeheartedly endorse those sentiments. In doing so, I also add a particular word for the families of those who serve in our agencies. They face their own blend of stress and pressure, day in and day out, in supporting their loved ones who work in the agencies. They too deserve our thanks.
My colleague, the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, commented on some of the reports published since 2015. I offer comment on some of those reports that he did not have time to mention. In particular, the importance of the committee’s oversight role is perhaps most effectively captured by the issues addressed in our annual reports. The 2016-17 report was a particularly full one and, among other subjects covered, highlighted the importance of detecting and countering high-end cyberactivity, which is and must remain a top priority for the Government. The current cyber threat to the UK is an issue that remains an important focus for the committee—a threat that ranges from individual criminals to organised crime groups and from terrorist organisations to state actors such as Russia, China and Iran. One notable development since the publication of our report has been the attribution by the UK over the past year of malicious cyberattacks to these state actors, notably the Russian GRU and APT10 acting on behalf of the Chinese Ministry of State Security.
The committee also took evidence on the administration and expenditure of the agencies, as it does annually. We questioned the heads of agencies and organisations about their spending, on their resources and priorities for investing in people, capabilities and major projects, and on areas such as IT and accommodation. This is an important part of the committee’s scrutiny role. Issues such as the use of contractors and consultants, or the percentage of staff working in certain areas, are important to our oversight of current spending.
Last year, the committee published its findings on the state of diversity and inclusion across the intelligence and security communities. We found that there had been significant progress recently and were impressed by the work being done by staff of the intelligence community through their own staff networks, as well as through strong and effective partnerships with organisations such as Stonewall. However, as many we spoke to during our visits acknowledged, there is still much to do. At senior levels in particular, the intelligence community is still not gender-balanced and does not fully reflect the ethnic make-up of modern Britain. There is a particular lack of black, Asian and minority-ethnic staff at senior levels across the community. We also drew attention to the vetting process, which appears to be bureaucratic, takes too long, and is widely considered by many of the staff we spoke to as an inhibitor to diversity. It is imperative that the intelligence community continues its focus on creating a diverse and inclusive workforce which reflects our society.
Also in 2018, we published a major report on the 2017 terror attacks in the UK. Countering the threat of terrorism remains a primary focus for all seven organisations that we scrutinise. The scale and pace of the terrorist threat continues at an unprecedented level. This challenge was brought into sharp focus by the terror attacks of 2017. The committee undertook an inquiry into the attacks on Westminster, the Manchester Arena, London Bridge, Finsbury Park and Parsons Green. MI5 and the counterterrorist police launched internal reviews in the immediate aftermath of these attacks, and this process was overseen by my noble friend Lord Anderson of Ipswich. The committee commended MI5 and the police for taking the initiative but, nevertheless, regarded it as essential to ascertain for ourselves whether mistakes were made and to ensure that the changes and improvements required had been identified.
We considered each attack in depth, with the exception of the Parsons Green attack, where, despite numerous requests, the Home Office failed to provide full evidence in sufficient time for it to be included in the inquiry. As we said at the time, the committee found this unacceptable. From what we did see, there appeared to have been failings in the handling of this case by the Home Office, the police and Surrey County Council. For the four remaining attacks, we considered the actions of MI5 and counterterrorism policing in relation to a number of cross-cutting issues that played a part in the actions of two or more of those who perpetrated these attacks. These issues included: extremist material online, extremism in prisons, vehicle hire, chemicals and explosives, joint working, closed subjects of interest, travel, disruptive powers, families and Prevent, protective security and data and information. That is quite a shopping list, and I just want to focus on one or two of those areas.
Our inquiry found that there continued to be issues with communication service providers. Following the murder of Fusilier Lee Rigby in 2013, the ISC was the first to draw attention to the failure of communication service providers to stop their systems being used as a tool for extremism and terrorism. Those loopholes were again exploited by the perpetrators of the 2017 attacks, and the Government need to continue to work on ways to inhibit this insidious use of the internet.
Extremist contact in prison was another area which the committee highlighted in its report. Abedi, the Manchester Arena bomber, visited an extremist contact in prison on more than one occasion, but no follow-up action was taken by either MI5 or CTP. In our opinion, known extremist prisoners should not be able to maintain links with those vulnerable to extremism, and we recommended that the approved visitors scheme be extended to all extremist prisoners.
In relation to explosives, we found that the system for regulating and reporting purchases of the ingredients to make explosives was out of date in dealing with the threat posed. Although the committee welcomed the changes subsequently made to the system and the Government’s intention to improve co-operation and information sharing between retailers and law enforcement, with the benefit of hindsight, this should have been done sooner and must now be kept under review.
The Manchester Arena bombing also highlighted deficiencies in MI5’s systems for monitoring individuals of interest not currently under active investigation. The perpetrator, Abedi, had in fact been flagged for review, but MI5’s systems moved slowly, and the review had not happened prior to him launching his attack. The question of how closed or peripheral subjects of interest are managed, which has been the subject of previous recommendations by the ISC, remains of crucial interest. This has indeed been a focus of the review of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson.
The report also noted that, despite Abedi being known to MI5 from 2014, he was at no point considered for a referral to the Prevent programme. This failure to use the Prevent programme is not a new issue, and we would have expected lessons to have already been learned. We welcome the appointment of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, to undertake a review of Prevent, and he is due to report on his findings next year.
The noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, commented on some of the items for future work. I should like to touch briefly on the China inquiry. On 6 March, the committee announced that, following the current inquiry into Russia, its next inquiry would be into international security issues relating to China. Among other issues, the inquiry was to examine the role of Huawei in the UK telecommunications infrastructure. In view of the considerable parliamentary and public interest concerning the Government’s deliberations on Huawei, the committee decided to prioritise that aspect of its inquiry and issued a statement in July on the issue of 5G suppliers.
Our statement noted that the National Cyber Security Centre has been clear that the security of the UK’s telecommunications network is not about one country or one company. The network has to be built in such a way that it can withstand attack from any quarter, whether that be malicious action from someone within the network, a cyberattack from actors outside, or simple human error. We should therefore be thinking of different levels of security rather than a one-size-fits-all approach.
This is essentially about resilience. The NCSC has said that this can best be achieved by diversifying suppliers, as it is important to reduce overdependence and increase competition. However, the telecoms market has been consolidated down to just a few players. In the case of 5G, there are only three potential suppliers to the UK: Nokia, Ericsson and Huawei. Limiting the field to just two would result in less resilience and lower security standards. It therefore follows that including a third company will result, somewhat counterintuitively, in higher security.
However, the committee recognised that this is not just a technical issue but a geostrategic issue of great significance. There are clearly a number of factors to weigh in the balance, including our intelligence-sharing relationships with our closest allies, in particular our Five Eyes partners, and the importance of our economic and diplomatic relationship with China. The committee expressed the view that this debate has become unnecessarily protracted and urged that a decision should be taken as soon as possible on which companies will be involved in our 5G network.
In concluding, I add my thanks to the committee’s staff, who work so hard to provide expert support. I also thank our chairman, the right honourable Dominic Grieve MP, for steering the committee through what has been a busy period. I believe that, as the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, so eloquently said, the committee has a vital role to play in ensuring the legitimacy of our intelligence agencies. Effective scrutiny of their work by a body trusted by Parliament and the public is crucial in giving them their licence to operate effectively, under the rule of law, in a free, open and democratic society.
Holding organisations to account means looking for errors, questioning judgments and probing procedures—all inevitably and advantageously with the benefit of hindsight. This is difficult and very time-consuming for those in the intelligence community under scrutiny, but it may never go far enough for those with concerns about the legal and ethical boundaries of intelligence work.
I hope that the ISC gets the balance about right, within the parameters set for us. It is very important that we do, as I am convinced that the UK’s oversight system contributes both to the effectiveness of our intelligence community and to the esteem in which it is held by the rest of the world.
Lord Ricketts (CB)
My Lords, I too thank the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, for securing this debate, which gives me the opportunity to speak about intelligence matters for the first time since I joined your Lordships’ House. I follow three speakers who have eminent credentials for commenting on these matters. Mine are far more modest. I was, as a member of the Diplomatic Service for 40 years, an enthusiastic consumer of the intelligence community’s products, and I had some oversight of their activities twice: first as chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee in 2000 and, more recently in 2010, as National Security Adviser, when I also oversaw their budgets, and indeed wrote the annual appraisals of the heads of the intelligence agencies. It was a singular privilege.
Having worked very closely with the intelligence community throughout my career, I regard the men and women of the agencies as one of the greatest assets we have in the British public service. They are quite rightly held accountable to the very highest standards, largely by the ISC itself. I am perhaps the only person here who has had the privilege of appearing in front of the ISC in various capacities—although perhaps my noble friend Lord Anderson has. Inevitably, the agencies’ triumphs are not well known to the British public, while their failings and shortcomings come under intense scrutiny.
Things were in a fairly patch when I became the National Security Adviser in 2010. There had been a great deal of adverse publicity around rendition. The agencies were engaged in the grinding civil litigation brought by the Guantanamo Bay detainees, which was absorbing a huge amount of resources, but they were handicapped by the fact that the Government could not produce in court the secret evidence to support their case. It is very encouraging to see how successfully a line has now been drawn under that period. Credit for that goes to the Cameron Government, and particularly to the then Justice Secretary, Ken Clarke, who was willing to legislate to make exceptional arrangements for the agencies to be able to defend themselves in court where necessary.
A good deal of credit for the turnaround in public confidence in the agencies and in the morale of agency staff goes to the ISC. Its work on detainees and rendition absorbed an enormous amount of time and effort and there were frustrations at not being able to bring it to a final conclusion. None the less, the 2018 report shed as much light as was possible on what went wrong and why. Like others who have spoken, I believe that establishing the facts and being honest about failings is important in re-establishing public confidence. The committee’s report makes it very clear that the staff of the agencies were working under intense pressure, at a time of real national emergency, in the months and years after 9/11. True to their values, they have learned from their mistakes.
It is vital for all of us that we have a self-confident and well-respected intelligence community, and I believe that we are in a much better place now than in 2010. Given the high level of terrorist threat that the country has been under in recent years, it is pretty remarkable that so many plots have been thwarted. However, there are always lessons to learn when things go wrong. Here, the committee’s report on the 2017 attacks and what needed to change was exemplary, both in helping the public to understand the incredibly difficult context in which the agencies work and in bringing forward useful and practical recommendations for future improvements.
I will not comment further on counterterrorism while in the presence of such a distinguished specialist as my noble friend Lord Anderson of Ipswich. Instead, I offer two comments that look forward and will perhaps help inform the committee’s judgments about its priorities in the coming years.
The first is on the impact of Brexit on intelligence work and co-operation. It will be important for the committee to keep this under review in the months and years to come. My feeling is that this is one area of Britain’s national security which is unlikely to be seriously impacted by Brexit. While Britain’s overall international standing and weight is bound to be diminished by leaving the EU, our key intelligence relationships should not be damaged. That is clearly true of the Five Eyes community, which operates well outside any EU context, and will largely be the case for co-operation with our main European partners, which exists almost entirely outside EU channels.
That is in sharp contrast to the position of law enforcement and judicial co-operation, where a no-deal Brexit risks very serious and immediate damage to connectivity to databases, the alerting systems and the European arrest warrant instrument that we need for our security. I was worried to read in my Financial Times this morning a suggestion that in the current round of discussions in Brussels being held by Mr David Frost, international security and defence is going to be given less priority in the negotiations. That seems worrying. The Minister may be able to help us on that aspect. If the connections we have with our European counterparts through the EU are severed from one day to the next by a no-deal Brexit, that is bound to make the job of law enforcement more difficult. The relevance of that to this debate is that however good intelligence work is, it normally requires flexible, agile law enforcement work to give it effect and to stop the threats that that intelligence illuminates.
My second and last point is more general. Throughout my career, I have seen that the intelligence community has been able to refocus as the threat changes. For the first 40 years of the post-war period, it was the confrontation with the Soviet Union, and for a lot of that time it was the effect of IRA terrorism. After 1989, we saw the intelligence community very effectively refocus on regional issues to back up western interventions in the Balkans, Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya. After 9/11, counterterrorism obviously became the central issue, particularly for the Security Service, but the threat moves on. For example, cyber is now rightly a very high priority. It is excellent that we have a first-class National Cyber Security Centre under its director Ciaran Martin, in whom I have the fullest confidence.
I hope the committee will keep in mind the need for the intelligence community to reflect the fact that great power competition is rising as a challenge to this country. It is very encouraging that the committee has been looking at Russia, and I welcome the inquiry into China, Huawei and telecoms security. I hope the committee may be able to untangle for us all whether Huawei indeed represents a national security threat to this country or whether it may not be more about industrial competition and protectionism from some of our allies. There is an issue about whether the intelligence community has the human skills in the right place to deliver this new focus on the emerging threat of great power competition, given that we are likely to face a post-Brexit world where we have nationalist powers increasingly feeling that they can ignore international rules with impunity.
Lord Paddick (LD)
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, for the way he introduced this debate. He was ably supported by the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, on the work of the Intelligence and Security Committee. This has been an enormously well-informed debate, to the extent that I feel completely underqualified to make any meaningful contribution, but in preparing for our debates on the Investigatory Powers Bill, now the Investigatory Powers Act, I was privileged to visit MI6, to be briefed by MI5 and MI6 and to visit GCHQ. I associate myself with the remarks of other noble Lords. They were summed up by the noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, who described our security and intelligence services as one of our greatest assets. I am in awe. I was lucky enough to be told of some of the work that they were undertaking. What they do and what they can achieve is quite mindboggling.
The noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, talked about the rigorous internal measures within the security services to ensure that everything functions properly, but said that they were no substitute for scrutiny and independent, hard-hitting assessments, as he put it.
The noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, talked about the fact that these debates used to be far more regular than they are now, and the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, said that the last debate on this subject in the House of Lords was in 2010. The theme running through the contributions was about a weakening of parliamentary oversight of these important issues. The noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, talked about how the committee is cleared to see highly classified information, yet in its report on the use of lethal drone strikes, for example, it said:
“Oversight and scrutiny depend on primary evidence: without sight of the actual documents provided to Ministers we cannot ourselves be sure—nor offer an assurance to Parliament or the public—that we have indeed been given the full facts surrounding the authorisation process for the lethal strike”.
If people cleared to the highest levels to see classified information are still denied the evidence they need in order to provide effective oversight, something is clearly amiss—something the Government need to address.
The noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, comprehensively set out the benefits and necessity of external scrutiny. While I was hoping to get through a debate without mentioning Brexit, he quite rightly pointed out that, should we leave the EU, we would have to get an adequacy certificate from the European Union to continue to share data with it, and effective scrutiny and oversight is part of what the European Union will consider in deciding what to provide. The Government should be indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, for his comprehensive range of recommendations, which the Government would be well advised to take note of.
The noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, talked about the lack of diversity in the intelligence community. We are talking here not about political correctness but about ensuring that the very best people are employed in our security and intelligence services. If there is any way in which any community or group is finding it more difficult to access positions within those services—perhaps because of an overlengthy and bureaucratic vetting process—that is to the detriment of the ability of the security services rather than anything to do with political correctness or reflecting the community more generally. The noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, talked about what the committee will look at in future: the involvement of Chinese companies in the development of the UK’s 5G network. That shows how important and relevant the work of the committee is.
The noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, was able to provide an independent assessment of the independent assessment provided by the ISC. He described its report on the 2017 attacks as “exemplary”. He made the important distinction between the impact of leaving the European Union on law enforcement and judicial co-operation and the impact on intelligence co-operation, which tends to be on a bilateral rather than an EU-wide basis.
Not least because I am not qualified to comment, I do not intend to comment on the work of the committee, but I will comment on this apparent erosion of parliamentary oversight by the committee and the apparent contempt in which the Government appear to be holding the committee. The Government’s response to the 2016-17 annual report was received only on 23 July 2018, but I understand that under the memorandum of understanding it should have been published on 19 February 2018 because the Government’s response should come within 60 days of the publication of the committee’s report. The report states that further questions arose over government action in response to the committee’s other inquiries. The report also talks about the committee’s work being interrupted by a general election and the exceptionally long time after it for the committee to be reconstituted. Parliament was dissolved on 3 May 2017 but because of government delays in appointing new committee members it was not until 23 November 2017 that the committee met again, so nearly six months passed with no parliamentary oversight of the intelligence and security communities.
As I have mentioned, the report states that,
“effective and robust oversight of the intelligence community, entrusted to—
the Intelligence and Security Committee—
“is too important to have been left in a vacuum for so many months”.
We now have another period, albeit a shorter one of five weeks, where there will be no oversight by Parliament because it is being prorogued for an unprecedented and unacceptable length of time. With another general election likely after Parliament returns, there is likely to be another extended period with no effective oversight of the intelligence and security communities provided by Parliament. It is not just a matter of Parliament not sitting during a period of prorogation; it is all its committees being unable to sit to call for evidence and to interview witnesses.
All this points to a Government who are showing contempt for Parliament and its oversight of the Executive, not least in this extremely sensitive area. The important work of this committee and the importance of not having extended periods of prorogation where the committee ceases to function was highlighted in June this year when the Investigatory Powers Commissioner stated that MI5 had handled large amounts of personal data in an “undoubtedly unlawful” way. According to Liberty, MI5 has been holding on to ordinary people’s data illegally for many years. In a High Court action brought by Liberty, lawyers for MI5 stated that they could not explain the exact nature of the breaches in open court because of “serious national security concerns”. The former Home Secretary stated that MI5 had taken “immediate and substantial steps” to comply with the law but, again, national security concerns meant that he could not give any details.
This is exactly the kind of issue that the Intelligence and Security Committee can and must be dealing with because its members are security cleared and can be told the exact nature of the security breaches and what steps have been taken to comply with the law—although, from the sound of things, this Government under this Prime Minister seem to think that complying with the law is optional. As Parliament is to be prorogued for five weeks, there will be no effective parliamentary oversight, as the committee will not be allowed to call for evidence or examine witnesses.
The work of the committee is becoming increasingly important as the powers of state are increased, as they have been substantially and against our objections, by the Investigatory Powers Act. For example, as we argued at the time, tech specialists, security chiefs and former Security Service personnel have argued that measures such as storing internet connection records will create cybersecurity and privacy risks.
We are in danger of increasing the powers of the state to spy on us while weakening Parliament’s oversight of the intelligence and security communities. I look forward to the Minister’s counter to our concerns.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, I thank the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, for tabling this Motion for debate today. I join the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, in feeling totally unqualified to take part in the debate, but, given the eloquent and clear contributions made by other noble Lords, I feel that I can comment on the points that have been raised.
This is a welcome opportunity to discuss the work of the Intelligence and Security Committee. I want to begin by joining others in paying tribute to the staff of the various security and intelligence agencies for the important work that they do to keep us and the UK safe. We owe them a great debt of gratitude.
The committee itself provides important oversight of the work of the intelligence community and has done for the last 25 years. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, that it is regrettable that we have not had more frequent debates. I would have liked this debate to have been on the Floor of the House, where I am sure many more speakers would have been involved. I hope that when Parliament comes back, the next debate can be on the Floor of the House.
I am very supportive of the committee and the work that it does. It strikes the right balance between detailed parliamentary oversight in camera—in private session—and a more general annual report that we can debate and can be discussed in public. The committee itself contains a good balance of members who have had considerable experience in relevant fields or have held high ministerial office.
Looking at the annual report of the committee, there are important items summarised in the appendix regarding the finances, expenditure and administration and policy in general. I noted that those were not particularly referred to in the report, but I know that the committee had a number of inquiries to deal with. I am sure that there was proper oversight of these important matters in the meetings, despite them not being referred to in the report.
The committee has undertaken work that is summarised in its annual review and I will comment on some of those issues. Many noble Lords have mentioned diversity and inclusion as being very important. We select men and women of the highest calibre to undertake this work—people in whom we place our trust with the task of safeguarding national security. It is not just politically correct: I am of the view that to get people of the highest calibre we must have diversity and inclusion at the heart of that process. I know that is what we mean by that. The committee has been doing important work and it is important that that continues, so that we build a diverse and effective workforce. As the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, said, this is still very much a people business. The intelligence agencies are not only dealing with data: they are dealing with people.
The terrorist attacks in 2017 were horrific events and the police and other emergency responders, on the night and afterwards, along with the security services, acted with immense skill and bravery. However, it is reassuring that not only were there internal reviews of these agencies and the one overseen by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, but the committee itself considered primary matters relating to the attacks provided by the police and MI5. I very much concur that it is for the committee to establish whether mistakes were made and to ensure that all changes and improvements required have been identified. For me, that is the committee doing its job and providing for both Houses and the wider public a greater degree of scrutiny, examination and reassurance—an independent committee examining the facts and drawing its own conclusions.
The noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, made several points about those susceptible to extremism being able to visit extremist prisoners and on the issue of regulations around explosives. I would welcome the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, on those points.
I welcome the committee’s inquiry into China, and in particular Huawei and the 5G network. I agree that the network has to be built to withstand attack, from wherever it comes, and diversity may be one of the ways that we can achieve that.
The noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, referred to the work done in respect of Syria and the activities of terrorists. I agree that it is regrettable that certain matters were denied to the committee. This is a committee of privy counsellors, subject to the Official Secrets Act, and it would be good to hear the Minister’s response to the points made by the noble Marquess in that respect.
It is concerning that staff from the UK intelligence services have witnessed abuse, or been told of abuse, and have been supplied questions to ask to detainees. These are very serious matters. Rendition has been an issue for many years and needs to be addressed.
The noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, referred to how successful the services have been in foiling terrorist plots. That is another example of the great debt we owe to the dedication and skill of our security agencies. I share his concern about the risk of a no-deal Brexit to the sharing of databases, the European arrest warrant and close co-operation with our European allies.
I also share the noble Lord’s concerns about the risk of cyber threat that no deal might bring. It would not have been an issue many years ago, when we did not talk about cyber at all, but today, everything in life—food and energy production, defence, manufactured goods and services, and transfers of money and data—requires the use of detailed digital and electronic signatures. It is very important that we get this right. The cyber threat is probably the most serious thing we face, in terms of widespread attacks to the UK.
As the report outlines, there has been some concern in the West about the activities of Russia. I was pleased to learn from the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, that the work on Russia continues. The Skripal poisoning, which has already been mentioned, has been attributed to agents of the Russian state, and there is suspected interference in elections and referendums in the West. The report refers to the previous Prime Minister’s Mansion House speech in 2017, when she accused Russia of planting “fake stories” to,
“sow discord in the West and undermine our institutions”.
I also note the guidance issued in May 2017 by the National Cyber Security Centre to political parties, local authorities and their staff to protect their digital systems. This area is extremely serious and I hope that the committee will keep these matters under review.
The noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, agreed with me many times in the House when I raised issues about elections. We agreed that election procedures and rules are not fit for purpose. We have allegations all the time of bots—as I think they are called—stealing our votes with lies, smears, fake news and all sorts of other nonsense. This must be addressed before we get to a general election. I will be the first to co-operate to get a Bill through Parliament to deal with outside interference, fake news, lies and smears, and then have our election, whenever it comes. I hope that the Intelligence and Security Committee shares my view and that of many others. I have made those representations to the Prime Minister and I hope that we will put country before party.
I have had positive meetings with the noble Lords, Lord Young of Cookham, Lord Hayward and Lord Gilbert, Chloe Smith MP from the Conservative Party, my noble friend Lady Kennedy of Cradley, and the noble Lords, Lord Rennard and Lord Tyler, from the Liberal Democrats. We all agreed that something must be done about elections before we have a general election. This is a really serious problem. I wrote a paper on this issue last year, which I gave to all noble Lords present, and everyone agreed with me—I think I sent it to the Intelligence and Security Committee so that it could look at it as well. We need to deal with this issue to ensure our election is not stolen from us.
In conclusion, I am most grateful to the noble Marquess, Lord Lothian, for bringing this Motion for debate today, and for the work of the Intelligence and Security Committee in providing the required scrutiny and oversight of our intelligence services, which need our backing, support and confidence in all that they do.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, particularly my noble friend Lord Lothian for securing it. He and many noble Lords made the point that the committee has not had an opportunity to discuss this, and in my time as Home Office Minister, I have not had the opportunity to reply to the committee until now. I hope that, in the future, the committee requests more regular debates. I will certainly be happy to respond to them.
Before I proceed, I echo the comments of my noble friend Lord Lothian in praising the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, and the work that he does, and the committee, which does the most incredible work. When I listened to some of the comments from the committee today, I felt quite humbled by the expertise we are so lucky to have in your Lordships’ House and the contributions that the committee has made. I also join noble Lords from the committee in thanking the right honourable Dominic Grieve QC for his leadership and direction of the work of the committee since 2015. Security and intelligence have featured heavily in public discourse over recent years, and it is to the credit of the chairman and the committee members that parliamentary oversight of the intelligence community has been so effectively maintained, even when the pace of events has been extraordinarily fast.
Noble Lords from the committee talked about its output since 2015 and managed to divvy up various contributions so that they were entirely different and focused on different aspects of the committee’s work. The committee has taken evidence on numerous occasions from Ministers and senior officials, conducted a number of inquiries and published several comprehensive reports on a variety of issues.
I shall take a moment to focus on some of the notable achievements of the committee. First, its report into the terrorist attacks in 2017, to which several members of the committee referred, was well researched with tangible recommendations that will help to improve the safety and security of our country. The Government’s official response to that report made clear that the police, the Security Service and the Home Office are all implementing improvements based on it.
Secondly, the committee’s reports into current and historic issues relating to detainees in the Afghanistan and Iraq conflicts were the result of several years of hard work by the committee and its staff. Those reports were extremely thorough and highlighted a number of important findings.
Thirdly, we must commend the committee’s efforts in looking into at how the intelligence community can become even more diverse and inclusive. It was interesting that a number of noble Lords made that point. Again, the report included useful recommendations that build on the significant work that the agencies have already done to make their organisations more diverse and inclusive places to work. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, rightly pointed out that inclusivity and diversity is not just a “nice to have”: it enhances the workforce at hand. I am very glad that the committee gave that issue equal standing with the other topics that it has examined.
Finally, the annual reports demonstrate the breadth of its remit and the wide-ranging nature of its oversight role. The conclusions and recommendations of those reports are always noted with interest by the Government and the agencies.
I have so far acknowledged the vital work that the Intelligence and Security Committee conducts to ensure that the UK’s oversight of its security and intelligence agencies is world-leading, but of course, like other noble Lords, I want to put on record the excellent work that the agencies do. As the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, mentioned, their families support them in their work, and one must not underestimate the strain that that probably often puts them under.
I turn to the various points that noble Lords made, starting with the point made by my noble friend Lord Lothian and others on lethal drone strikes in Syria. A precision airstrike against a British citizen is one of the most difficult decisions a Government can take. However, if there is a direct threat to UK citizens, such as that posed by Reyaad Khan, this Government will always be prepared to act. In 2015, there was no alternative to a precision airstrike in Syria. There was no Government who the UK could work with and no military on the ground to detain Daesh operatives. There was also nothing to suggest that Rayeed Khan would desist from his desire to murder innocent people in the UK. The Government had no way to ensure that all of his planned attacks would not become murderous reality without taking direct action. As the then Prime Minister informed the House in September 2015, a rigorous decision-making process underpinned the airstrike. A direct and imminent threat was identified by the intelligence agencies and the National Security Council agreed that military action should be taken. The Attorney-General was consulted and was clear that there would be a clear legal basis for action in international law. An air strike was the only feasible means of effectively disrupting the attack planning, so it was necessary and proportionate for the individual self-defence of the UK. On that basis the Defence Secretary authorised the operation, which was conducted according to specific military rules of engagement that complied with international law and the principles of proportionality and necessity.
The ISC announced on 29 October 2015 that it would be,
“investigating the intelligence basis for the lethal strikes”.
The ISC was provided with all the relevant information in this respect, and we are very grateful to the committee for its work. The decision-making process was not part of the review’s remit, which meant that the committee was not provided with a number of documents, including what the ISC has referred to as the “key Ministerial submission”. More generally, I assure noble Lords that the Government take all ISC requests for information very seriously and respond in line with the memorandum of understanding between the Government and the committee.
My noble friend Lord Lothian, the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, and others talked about the detainees and the committee saying its inquiry was neither authoritative nor credible because of government restrictions. The Government and the agencies fully and willingly co-operated with the committee and the earlier Gibson inquiry. The Government provided all relevant documentary evidence to assist inquiries into this issue, including the committee’s. The committee had access to the Government’s material provided to the Gibson inquiry and the agency heads’ responses to the 27 themes issued by Sir Peter Gibson in his preliminary report. As the committee said, it took 50 hours of oral evidence, reviewed 40,000 original documents and devoted over 30,000 staff hours to its inquiry. The only sticking points were the committee’s request to interview junior staff and staff subject to ongoing legal proceedings.
The point about Russia has been well made, and we look forward to reading the committee’s report on Russia when it is published.
My noble friend Lord Lothian asked why the Prime Minister has not met the committee and whether it is a statutory requirement. The Prime Minister takes the work of the committee seriously and will provide evidence to it at an appropriate point in the future.
My noble friend also asked me about air strikes in Syria outlined in the 2017-18 annual report. All indications were that this was a chemical weapons attack, and we were and are clear about who was responsible. Both the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons’ interim report on the Douma attack and the UN commission of inquiry’s most recent report support the Government’s conclusion that a chemical weapons attack was carried out on Douma on 7 April. While we do not comment on specific targeting decisions, targets were selected on the basis of rigorous intelligence and were extensively examined and assessed to ensure that our objective was achieved while protecting civilian life.
The action we took has had a disruptive effect on the Syrian regime’s capabilities. There should be no doubt as to our resolve regarding any future use of chemical weapons. As the then Prime Minister said at the time:
“It is in our national interest to prevent the further use of chemical weapons in Syria”,—[Official Report, Commons, 16/4/18; col. 42.]
and we will continue to work with partners, including through the UN and other international organisations, to uphold and defend the global consensus that these weapons should not be used. The Syrian conflict has been one of the most destructive in recent human history, and we reacted with our largest-ever humanitarian response. Our priority now is for the war to end as quickly as possible through the UN-facilitated political process reaching a lasting settlement to the conflict that protects the rights of all Syrians.
I will move on to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich. The Government welcome the assurance that the noble Lord has provided in order to monitor the progress of the work of MI5, CT policing and the Home Office. As he highlighted, it is of great importance that MI5 and CT policing improvement programmes continue to be scrutinised. It should be noted that as part of the ongoing scrutiny, the Government are providing six and 12-month updates on a number of the recommendations in the committee’s recent report, The 2017 Attacks: What needs to change?
The noble Lord talked about the reconstitution of the committee and the speed, or lack thereof, with which appointments were made. As he will know, the Justice and Security Act 2013 devolved more of the appointments process to Parliament. Candidates for membership of the committee are nominated by the Prime Minister, after consultation with the leader of the Opposition, and Parliament then votes to appoint them.
The noble Lord talked also about the lack of speed in publications. The Government aim to publish our response to ISC reports within 60 days, as set out in the MoU, but I will defer to the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, who seems to think that one of them was not responded to. We aim to do so within 60 days.
The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, also referred to the IPCO, civil society and wider expertise. I thank him for his suggestions about IPCO resourcing, the involvement of civic society and the opening up to wider expertise. These suggestions will be considered by government.
On the same theme, the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, mentioned that the committee cannot sit during Prorogation, which is right. Both Prorogation and general election campaigns unfortunately do not provide for that process to continue.
I will move on to the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin. Rightly, his first point—
Lord Anderson of Ipswich
Before the Minister leaves those comments, I wonder might I press her a little further on a point that was raised a number of times. We have heard in this debate of no fewer than three reports—on drone strikes, a detainee inquiry and Parsons Green—in which the committee has not been allowed either to see relevant documents or to speak to relevant personnel. That seems to be something of a pattern. Could the Minister explain how the public can have the necessary confidence that we have comprehensive intelligence oversight when the overseer itself complains that it is not being given the tools it needs to do the job? What guarantees can we have that this situation will not recur in future ISC inquiries?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
As I said to noble Lords, we endeavour to respond within 60 days. There will be certain occasions when responses cannot be given for reasons possibly of national security, but where responses can be given, we endeavour to give them.
Lord Anderson of Ipswich
Is the Minister saying that there may be reasons of national security why information cannot be provided to the privy counsellors on the Intelligence and Security Committee to hold the intelligence agencies to account?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I am saying—I will be corrected if I am wrong—that there may be occasions when it is not possible for that information to be provided. But, for the benefit of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, I will go back and interrogate each event that he mentioned and confirm that in writing to the committee if that is the case—but I suspect that is the reason why sometimes documents cannot be provided. I know the noble Lord does not look happy about that.
Moving back to the point about diversity and inclusion, I said that better workforces are more diverse workforces, and the other point I wanted to make was about flexibility in working styles to allow for more inclusivity within the workforce.
The noble Lords, Lord Janvrin and Lord Ricketts, talked about 5G suppliers. The UK Government have recently conducted a comprehensive review to ensure the security and resilience of 5G in the UK. We published that review earlier this month. Our response to the review is based on evidence and a hard-headed assessment of the risks. We will never compromise security in our pursuit of economic prosperity. I think we can have both. I stress that no final decision has been made about Huawei. The US entity listing is a new and relevant factor for the findings of this review, with potential implications for the market as a whole. The Government will further consider the position regarding high-risk vendors and make a decision in due course.
The noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, referred to Prevent and the Abedi case. As with all the other issues relating to the 2017 terrorist attack, the Government have looked for lessons learned relating to the Prevent programme. Abedi was not referred to the Prevent programme following the closure of investigations into him in 2014 by MI5 or CT policing. The investigations were closed because he was thought to be an individual seen acting suspiciously with a subject of interest, but he turned out not to have been that individual and therefore was judged to be low risk. He was also not referred separately to Prevent as part of the operational improvement review. Investigators must now give thought to referring an individual to Prevent upon the closure of an investigation.
The noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, made a point about how Brexit might impact on intelligence sharing with our EU partners. We work exceptionally closely with our European counterparts on intelligence sharing, joint operational work and sharing experiences of the developing threat. National security is outside the EU purview, but the noble Lord made the point that when we leave the EU the whole dynamic will change.
The light is flashing. I hope that noble Lords will be content for me to continue for another minute.
The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, asked why the purchase of chemicals used in the Manchester and Parsons Green attacks was not picked up and why it took an attack for the Government to realise that the suspicious activity reporting regime was out of date. Terrorists diversify their methods, including their methods of acquisition, and therefore our methods need to adapt over time to maintain that correct balance. Since the attacks we have refined our comprehensive strategy for preventing and detecting terrorists’ acquisition of explosives precursors to make our activities smarter and more efficient. The Government are actively working with retailers to design out the threat by substituting products with safer alternatives that cannot be used in an attack.
The noble Lord also made the point about the Manchester attacker visiting a known terrorist prisoner in prison and asked why that was allowed. All offenders of extremist or terrorist concern are managed actively as part of the comprehensive counterterrorism case management system. We are currently scoping work to strengthen controls around communications and visits for TACT and TACT-related offenders that could continue to pose a risk to the community irrespective of their prison security category. This process will be part of the wider review of all contact and transactions between people in the community and extremists in prison, and it will include addressing arrangements currently in place under the approved visitors scheme.
Finally, the noble Lord made a point about bots—about what is real news and what is fake news. I have to say that the past week has led me to wonder what is real in the world; so much is going on on Twitter. The noble Lord made an important point about elections because we need them to be based on what people have actually voted for rather than on what might have been influential over the internet. We have the Online Harms White Paper and will be doing further work on what appears on the internet, but the noble Lord makes a valid point in which I know that DCMS will also be very interested.
I thank noble Lords for their patience—the light has now been flashing for three minutes—and particularly my noble friend.
The Marquess of Lothian
My Lords, this has been an excellent and highly-informed debate which I have certainly learnt from. The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, made a typically modest speech in which he paid tribute to everybody except himself, but his reports informed much of the work that the committee did. They were immensely valuable, and I thank him for that.
I am also grateful to the Minister for her response. She knows that there are certain areas where we did not find that we were of a common mind. I hope that she will take them back and reflect on them. I raised them only because they make it more difficult for the committee to do the work that I think essentially Parliament expects us to do. It is worth the Government reconsidering them.
I hate to admit that I have been on the committee since 2006. It is only in the past three years that a Prime Minister has refused to meet us. We have found those meetings exceptionally useful because a lot of the criticisms that I have brought up today we could quietly bring up with the Prime Minister and, very often, they were resolved by doing so. I hope that we will go back to the habit of meeting the Prime Minister annually. I thank everybody for partaking in this debate.
House of Lords
Peatlands: Commercial Exploitation
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Teverson
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to end the commercial exploitation of peatlands.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)
My Lords, we have taken action to tackle domestic extraction of peat. The National Planning Policy Framework, published in 2012, ended the granting of new licences for peat extraction. We continue to focus on reducing demand for peat in horticulture in England, and on the uptake of alternatives. We are investing in research to overcome barriers to peat replacement. The forthcoming England peat strategy will set out our approach to speeding up progress.
Lord Teverson (LD)
My Lords, I welcome some progress in this area, but the Minister will know that our peatlands hold the equivalent, or a carbon sink, of something like 20 years of industrial emissions. Although I welcome things such as the peat restoration programme, surely it is better that they are not destroyed in the first place than that they need to be reconstituted? The voluntary process for reducing the commercial use of peat is not meeting its target, so when are we going to have mandatory targets that end the use of peat for commercial reasons?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I sympathise with all that the noble Lord has said. That is why we are working on recovery plans. Amateur gardeners account for two-thirds of the peat being used. We have to reduce our use of peat and go for peat-free products. I read of one that incorporates wool and bracken, for instance. We are working with industry; I am very pleased that Kingfisher, one of the big retailers, is moving towards peat-free compost. That is how we must all proceed in reducing the use of peat and restoring what we have. It is vital to our environment.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)
My Lords, building on that Answer, amateur gardeners find it very difficult to get high-quality compost that does not contain peat. Can the Minister expand a little on what the Government are doing to get retailers not only to stock less peat-based compost—ideally, none at all—but to be more informative about the price that the environment is paying for the quality of the compost that they are selling?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
As an amateur gardener, I agree with what the noble Baroness has said. It is precisely why we have embarked on a £1 million project, which ends at the end of this year, co-funded by the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board, with growing-medium manufacturers and commercial growers. It is being undertaken by ADAS and the Quadram Institute. The results so far are very promising. Some of the new mixes have proved very successful, and that must be the way forward. Clearly, we need to produce different materials if we want ericaceous compost for seeds and all the different components of agriculture, but the results so far are promising, and that is how we must proceed.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
My Lords, will my noble friend perhaps display a greater sense of urgency, considering that it takes 200 years to create a peat bog? Since there are flood prevention schemes, such as the Pickering pilot scheme, will the Government ensure that peat bogs are created as part of such restoration schemes and will they form part of the land management system under the eventual agriculture Bill?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
Undoubtedly, peat bogs and fens help with flood management and improve water quality. Indeed, they play a considerable part in climate regulation, which is why in the wider research beyond what I have already described we are funding research into mitigation strategies—for instance, for lowland peatland. This research is being led by the Centre for Ecology & Hydrology. One of the things, of course, is not to let peat dry out.
Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)
My Lords, the problem is much wider than compost. Flora and fauna are being drastically affected. For example, the numbers of the iconic bird of the upland in summer, the curlew, have fallen dramatically because, without the peat bogs, they find it difficult to feed, in spite of their long beaks. Will he draw that to the attention of the agricultural civil servants in his department?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right. The merlin, the dunlin and the golden plover are all birds that are also significant in their impact on the ecosystems and important in the peatlands. That is precisely why we want to concentrate on restoring peatlands and reducing peat extraction. Interestingly, the worst damage is being done in the lowland areas of peatland.
Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con)
My Lords, why do we not go back to using manure, which was very effective?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, being a farmer as well as an amateur gardener, I say that manure by itself would be a little too rich for some of the seedlings which we all need to prosper, but my noble friend is absolutely right about using compost and manure. Using them in the right mix and getting the right alternatives—natural alternatives such as wool and bracken—is the way forward.
Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)
My Lords, specifically on commercial peat extraction, as my noble friend Lord Teverson said, this is causing irreversible damage to some of the most historic and vulnerable nature conservation habitats and environments, so 2030 is too late to tackle this problem. Wonderful wetland habitats are being created from previous peat workings, such as at Westhay Heath. Why are the Government not doing more to promote such schemes to preserve more wildlife habitats?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I am pleased to say, as I think I may have said before, that we have already allocated £10 million to restore nearly 6,500 hectares of degraded peatland. These projects started last year and are due to complete in 2020. They are about raising the water table and re-wetting peat, along with the revegetation of bare peat. A lot of work is going on and we absolutely recognise that we need to roll these large-scale projects out more widely.
Lord Grantchester (Lab)
My Lords, what work—and to what conclusion—has the Minister’s department undertaken on the application of a carbon tax on sales of peat?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, obviously, that is a possible action, but we want to find the alternatives that will make the use of peat redundant and unnecessary. Peat is a very important natural resource that we need for our ecosystems, which is why we want to pursue that route. However, the noble Lord is right: in the end, if we cannot get it done through this voluntary approach, we will have to look at all eventualities. That is where, with the peat strategy, we will need to be determined to improve the peatland situation.
Intersex Citizens
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Barker
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to maintain the human rights of variations of sex characteristics (VSC) intersex citizens of all ages.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)
My Lords, in the 2018 LGBT Action Plan, the Government announced their intention to publish a call for evidence on the experience of people who have variations in sex characteristics. This has now closed and we are analysing the responses.
Baroness Barker (LD)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her Answer. Infants are being subjected to surgery which turns out in later life to be sometimes unnecessary and often extremely harmful. Will the Government, at the earliest opportunity, change the Equality Act 2010 to include variations of sex characteristics so that these very vulnerable people have some legal protection, which they do not at the moment?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I pay tribute to the noble Baroness and the way she has worked on this issue. She raises an important point: as she knows, we require more evidence on this issue to understand the long-term impacts of the medical interventions in children which she outlined. That is why we asked for information on this topic in the recent call for evidence and we are currently analysing the results.
Lord Winston (Lab)
My Lords, there are a number of children who have had sex-change operations who later on bitterly regret it. I have seen some of these people in fertility clinics; some also have complications after surgery. The decision to undergo gender reassignment is a very grave one. Are the Government satisfied that these decisions are being taken with sufficient care?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Lord outlined the very point articulated by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker. Obviously, we would never want children to have to go through something they might later regret, or which they feel has been imposed upon them and can destroy the rest of their lives. That is why we did the call for evidence and why we will proceed carefully and responsibly in this sensitive area.
Lord Black of Brentwood (Con)
My Lords, these issues are complex to understand and highly sensitive, even for those of us steeped in LGBT+ issues. One problem is that, at the moment, there is no official data on the number, frequency and types of interventions for intersex people. Would it be a good idea for the NHS to start collecting this?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I do not know whether my noble friend knows this, but the LGBT survey we conducted had 108,000 responses—the largest of its kind ever undertaken in the world. Almost 2,000 respondents identified as intersex. However, my noble friend is right: that proportion is a snapshot of those who responded. People have been calling for the census to record this; there will be the opportunity to do just that in the next census.
Lord Cashman (Non-Afl)
My Lords, intersex people face widespread discrimination. What steps are the Government taking to ensure awareness of the human rights of intersex people? Will the Government ensure appropriate training on intersex issues for health professionals and public officials, including legislators, the judiciary and policymakers?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
The noble Lord raises an issue which stems, in many cases, from ignorance. People mix up intersex with transgender: they are entirely different. Intersex is neither a sexual orientation nor a gender identity issue. He is absolutely right that more information and education on this needed, as is more training for medical professionals—an issue which many intersex respondents brought up in the call for evidence.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
I welcome the Government’s attention to this issue of minority rights. We understand that although this is a small minority it is an important one, and that early medical intervention can lead to deep unhappiness. Will the Government’s consultation lead to a public education programme? The noble Lord, Lord Cashman, mentioned the need for medical professionals to be trained, but we well understand that a lot of parents will need a certain amount of background enlightenment as to these possibilities and to the dangers of giving in to pressures at an early stage to “do something about it”, rather than allowing children to grow up as they are.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
It is not a consultation so much as a call for evidence, which is a more informed process, engaging with various stakeholders with expertise in this area. The noble Lord will be aware, of course, that intersex or variations in sexual characteristics can be chromosomal, gonadal, hormonal or indeed anatomical. Therefore, it is very important that whichever public services the individual comes into contact with, particularly medical practitioners, are educated and trained to be sensitive to the various issues.
Baroness Gale (Lab)
My Lords, I am sure the Minister is aware that intersex people face discrimination on the grounds of sex characteristics, including in access to healthcare, education, employment and sports and in obtaining official documents. Will she consider amending our anti-discrimination laws to ensure that the situation of people with intersex traits is effectively covered, by adding sex characteristics to the list of protected characteristics under the Equality Act 2010? This would ensure that their human rights are recognised—they should be entitled to full protection under the law.
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I think that that might be putting the cart before the horse in some ways; we have to understand, through the call for evidence, precisely what the issues are. I think intersex people are covered under current discrimination laws, but I take the noble Baroness’s point. Let us first be educated and informed by the call for evidence before we decide, as a Government, what the most effective way forward is.
The Earl of Listowel (CB)
My Lords, in the light of what has been said about the importance of expertise in this area, it must be concerning that there has been a decline in the number of child and adolescent psychiatrists in recent years. I understand that investment and effort is being made and that that trend is perhaps beginning to be reversed. Will the Minister look very carefully to see that we are successfully recruiting and retaining more child and adolescent psychiatrists to help in this area?
Baroness Williams of Trafford
I certainly acknowledge the noble Earl’s point and I shall refer his comments to my colleagues in health.
Charities: Plastic Bag Charges
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Hayward
To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the answer by Lord Gardiner of Kimble on 17 July (HL Deb, col 232), how much income charities would have received since 17 July had a plastic bag charge on small and medium-sized enterprises been introduced.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)
My Lords, there is no legal requirement for businesses to donate the proceeds from the charge to charities; businesses are encouraged to donate. The Government’s proposals are at consultation stage and have always been due to come into effect in 2020. As such, charities have not lost any income from the charge. Our initial impact assessment estimates that small and medium-sized businesses, after deducting reasonable business costs, could generate approximately £59 million for good causes in the first full year.
Lord Hayward (Con)
I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Is it not the case that this charge could have been brought in much more quickly and, as a result, charities would have been beneficiaries of a substantial sum of money? At the same time, is it not the case that by delaying the introduction of this charge until 2020, under the revised figures expected under the revised impact assessment something like 1 billion plastic bags will be used in this country in the next six months which would not otherwise have been used?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I have looked into this very thoroughly and I understand concerns about the time is it taking, but we are required under the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015 to carry out regulatory measures and assess business impacts which are reviewed by the independent Regulatory Policy Committee. I know I am getting into the realms of Sir Humphrey, but it is about the detailed feedback on methodology. Given that this charge will affect every smallholder, market trader and charity shop, we are attending to the comments that have come back from the Regulatory Policy Committee. I would like to make progress, and we will do, but we have to go through the due processes. Also, the SI will be affirmative and that will take some time.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister referred to the issue of regulation with regard to the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015, but the scope of that Act applies to all devolved nations, yet Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have already extended the plastic bag charge to small and medium-sized enterprises. What justification can there be for this? We are waiting only for England to catch up—everybody else has done it. Wales did it in 2011 and Scotland did it in 2013. It is now 2019. I would have thought that the scope of that Act would have allowed England to catch up by now.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
The magnitude and quantum of the number of businesses that will be involved in England will, as I think everyone would agree, be much more significant. As I have said, we are working through the requirements as we understand and have been informed about them. The Regulatory Policy Committee has come back to us with detailed comments on the methodology. We have to receive a positive rating feedback from the RPC. We want to do that because we think there are significant benefits from increasing the charge from 5p to 10p and applying it to all retailers.
Baroness Parminter (LD)
My Lords, the Minister said that it is not compulsory for retailers to ensure that the money goes to charities. Last year, 40% of retailers did not say where the money went. Why is it not compulsory for the money to go to charities so that we can be sure that it is going to good causes?
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, from the very outset, this was for businesses, and all businesses—taking away their business costs—were encouraged to donate to good causes. As I say, significant sums have already been given, but we should be mindful, particularly when we go on from larger to smaller business, that this will undoubtedly have to be for businesses. I was very interested to find that the House of Lords last year raised £283.21, and I am pleased to say that we are phasing out our plastic bags. This is the sort of quantum we are talking about. We will be dealing with very small retailers, which is why the noble Baroness hits on something that would be very difficult to enforce.
Nuclear Power Stations
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of a warming climate on the operational risks of nuclear power stations, particularly in the light of the reduction in capacity of nuclear reactors in France in the July heatwave.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and Northern Ireland Office (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)
My Lords, companies involved in the civil nuclear industry are required to meet robust standards that are overseen by independent regulators. These standards include keeping plants safe against the effects of climate change, as demonstrated by the Office for Nuclear Regulation jointly publishing guidance with the Environment Agency and Natural Resources Wales in March this year.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
I thank the Minister for his Answer, but I did not hear anything about climate change. If noble Lords remember, this Parliament declared—I think it was at the end of April—a climate emergency. Every year, the Greenland ice sheet loses 300 cubic kilometres of ice on average—that is just Greenland—and we could face sea level rises. I would have liked to have heard some policies that are a little different from any standards that have gone before, because we need new, tougher standards.
Lord Duncan of Springbank
The noble Baroness raises issues about climate change, which I will address head-on. The Office for Nuclear Regulation must not only anticipate but mitigate any potential problems that might occur, which will include not only sea level rise but sea temperature rise. In every instance, it must put forward robust strategies to ensure that at all points nuclear safety is paramount.
Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)
My Lords, is not the conundrum here that, while higher global temperatures may affect nuclear power, nuclear power itself can make a major contribution to combating global warming by producing massive amounts of low-carbon electricity? Can my noble friend give us an assurance that in doing so, costs can be kept down, particularly in relation to Hinkley Point, as they are rising rapidly? Could he make sure that we have a proper debate on this whole subject when we come back, as things are not going very well at present?
Lord Duncan of Springbank
My noble friend is of course absolutely correct that nuclear power itself is a means of reducing carbon emissions, and it will remain part of our electricity generation mix—necessarily so, as it is already 20% at present. When Hinkley Point comes online it will represent 7% of the overall electricity generated in the entire United Kingdom. It is therefore important that we are able to ensure that nuclear remains a component part of our offering and our energy reduction. It is also important to recognise that one of the conditions of the nuclear strategy which we have put forward—the £200 million fund—is that there is a significant reduction in the cost of the production of nuclear energy. That will represent a 20% reduction overall, which must be part of that strategy. We are alert to these issues. Again, the time is right for a proper debate on the wider questions, which I suspect my noble friend would have raised had we had more time.
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, I welcome the new Minister to his position. He will be aware that I usually use this opportunity to conflate nuclear power with energy storage. With high-capacity energy storage, the need for nuclear becomes much less critical. There are also short-term issues around storage, which we saw on 9 August, when there were blackouts across large swathes of England. The cost of replacing that short-term storage is about £1 billion to double it to 2,000 megawatts. What is the Government’s plan for storage, what money is available, and how is it being invested to deliver a robust system?
Lord Duncan of Springbank
I thank the noble Lord for his welcome. Storage must be at the heart of our strategy, because we cannot get to net zero by 2050 without it. We will need to significantly increase our investment in this type of technology to understand it well. He will of course be aware that one of the most successful forms of storage is the pumped hydro, which again we need to examine in its manifest forms.
Baroness Meacher (CB)
My Lords, what action are the Government taking to develop the scientific method to withdraw CO2 from our environment? We have passed the point when we can deal with climate change simply through reducing our emissions. One of the absolutely key answers has to be withdrawing CO2 from the atmosphere.
Lord Duncan of Springbank
The noble Baroness asks a simple question which will get a complicated answer in response. A number of changes must take place in greening and reducing our emissions, not least within our domestic environment. We need to move away from the gas in our homes and the hydrocarbons in our cars, and we need to do that in the short term. We need a new strategy which will address the culture. This is not just about what government can do; it has to be about what individual households can do, recognising the cost of each change. We have a strategy, which is available on our website.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned pumped hydro. He will be aware of the role played by the Dinorwig scheme, which in its day was the largest in the world, although it is not quite that now. Are there more such schemes, and are they geared to the two-lake solution or to estuarial pumping, back up the valleys from where the rivers came?
Lord Duncan of Springbank
The noble Lord is right to rejoice in the success that Wales has had in pumped storage. There are moves afoot on the part of a number of companies to expand existing hydro plants. The future is of course dependent on how we can mitigate some of the costs involved in such large-scale projects, but they will fit into both categories if we can find the right balance of incentive to encourage these sorts of developments.
Lord Lansley (Con)
My Lords, the Question relates to the resilience of nuclear electricity generation. Given the relative lack of progress beyond Hinkley in renewing the nuclear fleet and its possible contribution to that resilience, what progress are the Government making on the introduction of more small modular nuclear reactors for electricity generation?
Lord Duncan of Springbank
My noble friend is right to remind us that not all nuclear reactors need to be on a large scale. Small modular reactors certainly have a place in our strategy. We are putting forward up to £80 million to develop this kind of technology, to help us to tackle the issue. It will help us to make a substantial difference to our climate change initiatives.
Lord Whitty (Lab)
My Lords, I welcome the Minister’s commitment to a wider strategy and all the points that have been raised, but the Question refers to learning lessons from the reduction during the heatwave in capacity in the French nuclear power system. Is he utterly confident that the French system will share those results in view of our imminent departure from Euratom and ending all other agreements with our French partners?
Lord Duncan of Springbank
The noble Lord will be aware that the French nuclear system is based primarily on riverine cooling, whereas that in the UK is based on marine cooling. Two plants in France had to be turned off because of the situation in the rivers. We do not have any issues in that regard, but we will learn lessons because it is important to do so. The Office for Nuclear Regulation must learn lessons not only from what happens at home but from what happens abroad.
Lord Teverson (LD)
My Lords, before the Summer Recess, the Government agreed that the UK should have a zero-carbon target for 2050. I cannot remember if that was from this Government or the May Government. Can the Minister confirm that that is still the Government’s position, although what is more important is meeting the recommendations of the Climate Change Committee? When will we have an updated clean growth strategy?
Lord Duncan of Springbank
It was our Government. We will have an updated clean growth strategy because it is absolutely vital. We will need to be bold about taking ourselves forward to net zero by 2050, because our present initiatives are not adequate to deliver that. There will need to be a significant refresh not just of the wider clean growth strategy but of all aspects of this covering all government departments.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, taking up the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, on banishing CO2 altogether, surely we will have to stop breathing out.
Lord Duncan of Springbank
I strongly discourage my noble friend not to stop breathing out.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)
My Lords, perhaps I may press the Minister to go back to the Question and to the question asked by my noble friend Lord Whitty. We rely to a fair degree on electricity from nuclear power stations in France. What assessment has been made of the position if the French, because of climate change, should decide that they cannot maintain the same level of supply as in the past? What guarantees do we have that that will not happen, and what assessment has been made of how we will make up a shortfall?
Lord Duncan of Springbank
The simple answer is that we cannot guarantee what the French nuclear system will do. France is an independent nation in that regard. We have to make sure that our provision is adequate to ensure that the lights do not go off and that the supply of electricity is absolutely maintained. That is why we rely not solely on nuclear but on a breadth of electricity generation. We will continue to do so at the safest levels possible.
Hurricane Dorian
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Collins of Highbury
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what diplomatic support they have provided to the Government of the Bahamas in the aftermath of Hurricane Dorian and what steps they are taking to ensure the safe delivery of aid to the Bahamas.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)
My Lords, Hurricane Dorian has caused untold damage to the Abaco Islands and Grand Bahama. I am sure that I speak for every Member of your Lordships’ House when I say that our thoughts and prayers are with those who have lost their lives or their homes or have been injured. The United Kingdom was among the first to provide support and we are pleased to see that the international response has since been ramping up. The Government have also committed up to £1.5 million, which has enabled the delivery of critical aid, and we have deployed emergency and consular teams to the Bahamas.
Lord Collins of Highbury
I thank the Minister for that response. Indeed, last Friday the noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, also kindly informed me of developments as regards what we are doing to support both the MoD and DfID. But, of course, if noble Lords listened to the “Today” programme this morning, they will have heard the local concerns about the efficiency of the Nassau distribution of aid and support, particularly to those in the Cays and the small islands around Abaco. What administrative and logistical support has been given to the Government of the Bahamas to ensure that everyone in need is supported?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I reassure the noble Lord and pay tribute to my colleagues in the Department for International Development. I am delighted that my noble friend Lady Sugg has joined me on the Front Bench. The MoD has provided support. The FCO has provided consular assistance and 13 members of its staff have been deployed to the region at the high commission in Nassau. Indeed, we are the only embassy or high commission from the EU operating in the Bahamas. DfID has also deployed a team of five humanitarian experts, with a sixth on the way.
Yesterday I spoke to the Bahamas Foreign Affairs Minister, Darren Henfield, whose constituency is Abaco, and I have been in constant liaison with both our high commissioner on the ground there and the Bahamas’ high commissioner in London. I assure the noble Lord that through the support that we have provided across the three departments—and let us not forget RFA “Mounts Bay”, which has been providing vital assistance to those who been directly hit on the two islands—we have been at the forefront of assistance to both our citizens and those of the Bahamas.
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, I associate these Benches with the condolences that the Minister has just expressed. Does he agree that while it is vital to help those who have been so terribly affected by the hurricane, it is important that, as lives and places are rebuilt, resilience is built in? In fact—this question follows on from the previous one—given that this is the worst hurricane to have hit the area, does this not reinforce the fact that we have to work together to tackle climate change? As the Minister knows, in the EU we were able to lead on that in the run-up to the Paris climate change conference, which was so important. How are we going to ensure that we can play any such role in the future?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, we have been recognised by the UN Secretary-General—among others—for our primary role in building resilience, both in the Caribbean post hurricanes Irma and Maria, and in the Pacific. As the noble Baroness may be aware, the United Kingdom and a number of other countries are leading on the resilience strand at the UN conference that will take place during high-level week later this month in New York.
On the specifics, I assure the noble Baroness and the noble Lord that we were there two years ago and subsequently we have expended a great deal of effort, time, energy and focus on co-ordination in the region, both with our overseas territories and with international partners, including our European partners: the Netherlands and France. It is as a result of that that we have seen the co-ordinated response on the ground.
However, I reflect on the words of the Foreign Minister of the Bahamas yesterday. He thanked the United Kingdom for our support and prayers, but he also said, poignantly, that there is little you can do when Mother Nature takes her course. I assured him that we as a House and a country stand in support of their efforts and we will continue to support the Bahamas, not just in providing immediate relief but in reconstruction.
Viscount Waverley (CB)
My Lords, is the Minister aware of the fate of Bimini, a chain of islands in the Bahamas, which has been pulled apart by developers, who have destroyed the ecosystem of dolphins, whales and reefs? Will he take this into account when formulating a future development policy as a result of the hurricane?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, I assure the noble Viscount that we have been working across the Caribbean, not just on resilience but on the very issue that he raised about protecting natural habitats. That is why the United Kingdom within our own territories has been at the forefront of introducing marine protection areas, with 4.3 million kilometres of them around key habitats, protecting them. I will take the specific issue of the Bahamas back and if there are updates I will write to the noble Viscount.
Lord Tebbit (Con)
My Lords, can my noble friend assure me that since, as is usual on these occasions, the aid has been delivered by our military forces, the cost the forces incurred in delivering that aid should fall on the overseas aid budget and not the military one?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble Lord, Lord Collins, has partly answered my noble friend’s question—this does not come under ODA eligibility. Indeed, the funds that we have allocated have been set up specifically for that reason, so I can give my noble friend that reassurance.
Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)
My Lords, we have heard admirable amounts offered by way of support to the victims of this terrible storm. However, perhaps I may ask a question about the modalities for distributing the aid and the extent to which it involves local people with local knowledge, bearing in mind that those who administer what is given might reach wiser conclusions about the distribution.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The noble Lord is absolutely right to raise that, and I refer to my response to the noble Baroness, Lady Northover. We have been working with regional partners and, most importantly, with CDEMA, the aid agency that responds to these issues in the Caribbean. We have been bolstering its responsibility and investing with our key partners. I assure the noble Lord that my conversation yesterday with the Foreign Affairs Minister of the Bahamas focused specifically on ensuring that the technical support and the reports that we are getting reflect the type and focus of the assistance that can be provided. For example, we are working with American colleagues on ensuring that the airport is functional so that more aid and support can be provided.
Lord Naseby (Con)
As my noble friend will recall, lessons were learned from Hurricane Irma, one of which concerned the speed of the response. Can he assure the House that we are using the facilities at Brize Norton? If planes cannot land at Nassau, they should at least land at the Cayman Islands and be trans-shipped. Can my noble friend bring us up to date? Are we using the facilities and heavy-lift equipment at Brize Norton on the ground in the Bahamas now?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My noble friend raises an important point about lessons learned. I believe that I have already indicated the importance of staying focused after Hurricane Irma and Hurricane Maria. On the specific issues raised, RFA “Mounts Bay” was the only vessel that had the ability to access the Bahamas. As many noble Lords know, the hurricane stayed over the Bahamas and at one point moved at about 1 mph, so for two consecutive days the Abaco Islands, in particular, were battered quite considerably. We provided support at the first point of access. The runway needed to be cleared to allow access and the US has been leading in providing support in that respect. In terms of the wider response, my noble friend talked about the Caymans and so on. I have been pleased that, because of co-ordination, we have seen support from the British Overseas Territories—namely, the Turks and Caicos and the Cayman Islands—in alleviating the suffering of the people of the Bahamas, and that co-ordination continues.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, the Minister will have seen that the Prime Minister of the Bahamas has described Hurricane Dorian as “catastrophic and devastating”. Can he confirm that more than 70,000 people have been displaced and provide an updated figure on the number of fatalities, which is said to be 44? Will he also confirm that 3,500 evacuees have now arrived in the capital, Nassau, and can he say what truth there is in the reported suggestion that no food, medical aid or water have arrived, particularly in the destroyed shanty towns where many Haitian workers were living?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, the issue on the ground is very fluid. The noble Lord talks of various numbers—he is correct that they have been widely reported—both for the people impacted and the fatalities. However, hearing the reports, I fear that that latter number will increase. As I said, I have been in touch directly with the authorities in the Bahamas and, most importantly, with the Foreign Affairs Minister to ensure that we are kept abreast of the immediate requirements. In terms of aid being received, there have been challenges in providing access to some of the hard-to-reach areas because of the nature of the hurricane. However, it is my understanding that we have provided the support that has been required and that aid has been getting through to those who require it.
Royal Assent
Monday 9th September 2019
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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Chair of the European Union Committee
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
That the Earl of Kinnoull be appointed Principal Deputy Chairman of Committees (to be known as Chair of the European Union Committee), in place of Lord Boswell of Aynho.
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)
My Lords, in moving this Motion, it would be remiss of me not to say a few words about the outgoing chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, who I am delighted to see in his place. He has served the EU Committee, and in turn this House, with such distinction.
The noble Lord, Lord Boswell, has been the longest serving chairman in the history of the EU Committee. Over the seven years and three months he has spent in the role, the committee has met 229 times and published 122 reports—he is looking quite pained at the memory. Much of the committee’s recent work and 42 of those reports have been related to Brexit. I suspect that the noble Lord may not have anticipated that Europe would be quite so dominant in the national debate when he took on the chairmanship. That his stewardship of the committee has been so calm and measured has enormously benefited the whole House, especially when tensions on these issues have run high.
The noble Lord’s dedication to European matters is recognised way beyond this House. I was told by his daughter that his eldest granddaughters used to call him Baloo. The family naturally assumed that this was a reference to the character from The Jungle Book. “No”, explained the noble Lord’s granddaughters—It was because he wears blue jumpers and is always talking about the EU. On behalf of this House, I thank him for his service to the committee and wish him well in whatever he undertakes next.
Finally, I welcome the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, into the role. I have no doubt that he will prove an equally able and effective chairman, and I wish him well. I beg to move.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I am sure that the whole House will share the noble Baroness’s confidence, and mine, that the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, will take on this role with enthusiasm and great skill. His expertise in science and the law are key ingredients for evidence-based policy-making and analysis; that is essential, particularly at a time when some consider opinions superior to facts. We warmly welcome him to his new position.
It is also an honour to pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, as he stands down. I first engaged with him many years ago when I was a newly elected MP and he was the shadow Minister leading for the then Opposition on the Minimum Wage Bill Committee —he remembers it well. It still holds the record for the longest ever Committee sitting in Parliament. I seem to recall that the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, spoke many a night in that same Committee Room. Despite some very long and late nights, then as now, he displayed his customary courtesy and good humour at all times.
At a time when the issue of our membership of the EU has fractured our politics, fragmented political parties, divided society and even split families, the work undertaken by our EU Committee and sub-committees remains essential and valuable. The noble Lord, Lord Boswell, has acted at all times in the interest of your Lordships’ House to ensure that our debates would be well informed and timely. He can be proud of his record.
At times, it has been a difficult role. We hear that it has been seven years, three months—and I am sure he can tell us how many days as well. The noble Lord has always seen his work as service to this House and has been exemplary in fulfilling those responsibilities. We thank him and wish him well.
Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, the noble Lord has presided for a long period over the work of the European Union Committee, but I think that it will be the work related to Brexit for which he will be remembered. I am sure that the unprecedented volume of reports from that committee have informed a very large number of people across the country. In particular, the first tranche of reports after the referendum drew to the House’s attention—and mine—a whole raft of detailed issues relating to Brexit, and although I thought I knew something about the subject, I realised that I was ignorant. I would like to thank him personally for my education—and more generally, on behalf of the House and the country, for the immensely educative job that the committee has been able to do.
I also thank him personally for his very open approach to consultation. As Chief Whip and Leader, whenever there has been a particular issue relating to my group or policy more generally facing the committee, he has been able to come and have a confidential discussion about it. I found this extremely valuable, and I believe that the approach is very much in the best traditions of the House.
We welcome the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, to the job and wish him well. At the same time, we look forward to the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, resuming his full voice in future debates on Europe and more generally.
Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)
My Lords, on behalf of these Benches, I too welcome the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, to this very important post. I think we can all agree that a safe pair of hands is required in these uncertain times and he can undoubtedly provide us with exactly that quality; I too wish him well for what lies ahead. I join others in paying tribute to the work that has been done on behalf of these Benches by the noble Lord, Lord Boswell. I take particular pleasure in doing so because it was invariably from these Benches that he addressed the House when he was presenting the reports of his committee, as he felt it was appropriate to do. As has been said, he presided over his committee, to the work of which he was utterly devoted, with great skill and authority; these qualities came through time and again when he was presenting these many reports.
Behind the scenes, both at home and abroad, the noble Lord worked tirelessly and always with good humour to maintain his committee’s authority and reputation. It is no exaggeration to say that, having earned the support and admiration of his colleagues, he transformed the work of the committee. He gathered so much into the committee itself, on top of what was being reported to it from its sub-committees. Instead of sitting once a month as was the position to begin with, latterly it was sitting each week and perhaps even more often than once. That is some testament to the qualities that he brought and the importance he attached to its work.
The noble Lord was particularly keen to stress—I am sure he would like me to mention this—that leaving the EU ought not to mean that his committee should cease to exist. That was his response to the challenges of Brexit, along with all the others mentioned. The House owes much to his initiative and dedication. His voice is always a pleasure to listen to and his presence always commands attention. There is so much about his chairmanship to admire and for which to be grateful. I join all those who have already spoken in extending to the noble Lord our warmest thanks and good wishes.
Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill [HL]
Monday 9th September 2019
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Barran
To resolve that it is expedient that if the Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill [HL]—
(a) has not completed all of its stages by the end of this session of Parliament, and
(b) is reintroduced in the next session of Parliament,
the Bill as reintroduced shall, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day), be taken pro forma through all of the stages completed in this session.
High Speed Rail (West Midlands–Crewe) Bill
Monday 9th September 2019
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Vere of Norbiton) (Con)
My Lords, HS2 is a major infrastructure programme that has had substantial parliamentary support from both Houses over its development to date. The Bill before your Lordships’ House relates to phase 2a of HS2, which would extend the line from the West Midlands to Crewe. Before I move on to the substance of the Bill, I want to draw attention to the Oakervee review and the recent advice received from Allan Cook, the chairman of HS2 Ltd. Noble Lords will be aware that the Government have asked Douglas Oakervee, supported by a panel with a wide range of views, to review HS2. Noble Lords will also be aware of the Statement laid last week by the Transport Secretary regarding advice recently received from Allan Cook. The Oakervee review will assemble and test all the existing evidence, including the recent advice from Allan Cook to allow the Government to make properly informed decisions on the future of the project.
The Transport Secretary made it clear when launching the review that the review itself should not unnecessarily delay HS2. This means continuing with preparatory work, including the enabling work for phase 1, and progressing the legislation for phase 2a. It is important to mention the review and the chairman’s advice, but giving the Bill a Second Reading does not affect the conduct of the review or prejudge its outcome. Indeed, I wish to make it clear that the Bill seeks permissive powers, to be able to construct phase 2a. It does not require the railway to be built.
The focus of this Bill process is addressing the concerns of people whose homes and businesses are impacted by the route. The petitioners seek resolution of their issues and certainty about what will happen. By giving the Bill a Second Reading and allowing the Select Committee to do its work, we can enable petitioners to be heard and their concerns considered.
Lord Adonis (Lab)
My Lords, can the Minister tell the House when the report of the review will be published?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
I thank the noble Lord for his intervention, but perhaps I may pick up all the issues surrounding the review later. If he includes that question in his speech, I will cover it in my speech at the end of the debate, when we discuss all those issues.
Lord Grocott (Lab)
My Lords, will the Minister also say whether part of the evidence that the review takes will include an assessment of how much has been spent already on this vital link for the West Midlands? Then we could get a clearer idea, in the light of the suggestion by some that the scheme should be scrapped—which, as well as being disastrous for the West Midlands, would be a colossal waste of money.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
I shall indeed cover that in my closing remarks.
It is nearly 200 years since permission was given for the building of what is now the west coast main line. Those railway pioneers made history. The railways allowed goods to travel more quickly to where people wanted them, and allowed people to travel too, for work and leisure. All this truly unlocked the Industrial Revolution, and by connecting people and goods it made the United Kingdom into an economic powerhouse.
Much has changed in nearly 200 years, but I want to focus on the things that remain the same—the things that the railways can still do: the need for railway capacity to take people and freight where they should go; the need for connectivity between places, to make travel easier; and the potential for economic growth through transport investment.
Turning to capacity, the vast bulk of our rail network was built more than 100 years ago. Demand has increased substantially since the 1990s, and the west coast main line is effectively full. Inevitably, this has implications for the reliability and performance of our network, affecting both passengers and freight. I do not want to underestimate those implications. Disruption to freight delivery can be unseen, but the disruption to people’s lives caused by late or cancelled trains regularly makes the press. The resulting huge frustration can mean that people choose not to trust trains for freight or travel, and those choices can mean more lorries and cars on our roads, with higher carbon emissions.
Capacity on, and in turn the resilience of, our railways is essential. The Government continue to invest in our existing infrastructure, but to really increase capacity and network reliability requires completely new capacity. Eking ever more out of our already full network comes with extensive disruption, leading to daily frustration with the impact on lives and businesses. Those rail users may not come back to the railways. If it proceeds, HS2 could be the best solution to capacity problems, providing much-needed space on the congested west coast main line, leading to more passengers and more freight trains on the existing network.
That brings me to connectivity. HS2 could connect many of the UK’s largest cities, and passengers would not have to travel on it to feel the benefit. Estimates indicate that about 100 towns and cities across the country could benefit from HS2 through the improved connectivity that a new railway could provide. That is not just rail connectivity; it is connectivity of people to other people, to jobs, and to businesses and their customers and suppliers. This section of HS2 could join Birmingham and London to Crewe, bringing greater connectivity to the north-west and Scotland.
That leads me to my third point: investment in transport infrastructure is not just about the infrastructure itself. Investment in transport infrastructure drives economic growth. It supports productivity by enhancing the transport networks on which businesses and individuals rely, and provides thousands of jobs and training opportunities in the supply chain. Earlier this year the Government announced that HS2 was already supporting more than 9,000 jobs and that 2,000 businesses had delivered goods and services for HS2. It has been offering up exciting opportunities for young people, with over 320 apprenticeships created so far. It is enabling young people to gain the skills to build our future infrastructure. Those skills are transferable, from building railways to other construction and other economic sectors, meaning that HS2 could give the UK more skills to compete globally, generate long-term employment opportunities and become the driving force behind Northern Powerhouse Rail.
I turn to the Bill itself. Phase 2a of HS2 is approximately 36 miles of track. It will extend HS2 from the end of phase 1 at Fradley near Lichfield and onwards towards Crewe. At the northern end it will connect to the west coast main line, allowing HS2 services to join that main line and call at Crewe station. The Bill gives outline planning permission for the railway and allows for compulsory purchase powers. It affects homes, businesses and land along the way, so it is rightly subject to extensive scrutiny. A Select Committee especially convened to scrutinise the Bill in the other place received over 300 individual petitions. During that scrutiny, the Transport Secretary offered 1,000 assurances to people who are directly and especially affected.
If the Bill receives its Second Reading today, it will pass to another specially convened Select Committee of your Lordships’ House that will look again at the detail of the Bill and make sure that it meets the high standards that we expect. The committee will have the power to amend the Bill as well as to require other changes to this part of the scheme not yet covered in the Bill. Since First Reading in July, the Bill has received 35 petitions for the Select Committee to consider, and HS2 is engaging with those petitioners to try to address their needs.
Stepping back from the individual impacts, wider community and environmental impacts are also raised by the Bill. I reassure noble Lords that I understand these wider concerns but I also remind them that it is not possible to build a railway without having some impact on the wider community. We must strike the right balance between delivering and operating a railway and being sensitive to its surroundings. I believe that the Government have struck that balance.
HS2 has undertaken detailed environmental assessments to ensure adequate mitigation of the railway’s impacts. These 36 miles of track have been considered through 17,000 pages of environmental statement—that is over 470 pages of assessment for every mile of track. Many thousands of consultation responses to the assessment were independently assessed and summarised in a report to Parliament. For example, an ecologically survey at Colwich looked for great crested newts. The field survey confirmed the newts’ presence and, to compensate for any possible losses, approximately 7.4 hectares of grassland, including eight ponds, has been proposed to provide suitable replacement refuge and foraging habitat. These assessments are not the end of our consideration of the environmental effects and impacts on communities. The Government have continued to listen to communities, environmental groups, statutory bodies and other stakeholders to try to reduce the impacts where we can.
Other changes to the scheme include the lowering of the Kings Bromley and River Trent viaducts in Staffordshire to reduce landscape impacts and the relocation of the southern portal of the Whitmore Heath tunnel, removing the need to realign a road and reducing the loss of ancient woodland. There are additional earthworks to further screen the maintenance base near Stone and to provide additional noise mitigation, such as the noise bund at Woodhouse Farm. There are assurances to protect water voles in Cheshire and to provide bird protectors along the power supplies to protect important bird species. These are just a few examples.
More than half the route is in a tunnel or cutting. The route avoids direct impacts to any grade 1 or 2* listed buildings, to scheduled monuments, to registered battlefields and to registered parks and gardens. The route does not affect any Natura 2000 sites or sites of special scientific interest, or cross any areas of outstanding natural beauty, and HS2 has been designed to withstand a “one in 1,000 years” flooding event. I know there are people who want to see more: longer tunnels, deeper cuttings, taller noise barriers and so on. I understand that. However, our duty to protect the environment must be balanced with our duty to the taxpayer. The work to date has done that and balances these responsibilities appropriately.
Lord Snape (Lab)
Does the Minister agree that those who demand longer tunnels and deeper cuttings are usually the ones who then complain about the extra costs there involved?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
The noble Lord raises an interesting point. HS2 is intended to be greater than the sum of its parts. It is designed to provide much-needed capacity on our rail network, allowing freight and passengers more reliable services. It could reconnect our country, pumping much-needed investment into the Midlands and the north. HS2 is about potential: to create opportunities for growth, support a brighter future for the UK, improve and rebalance our economy and improve connectivity across the UK. It remains important to get these decisions right, so we look forward to hearing Douglas Oakervee’s recommendations. In the meantime, I hope the Bill is allowed to proceed today. I beg to move.
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, the HS2 project is an initiative of the last Labour Government and one which we still support today. In the years that have passed since it was first announced, the project has steered off course from the direction we intended. The line was due to be built as a network rather than a standalone piece of infrastructure, as part of a campaign to engineer growth for the Midlands and the north of England. Throughout the route’s construction, we had intended that it would be built with consideration for the economic, environmental and time sensitivities. With public confidence in the Government’s ability to do this now waning, I am pleased that we can debate this Bill to enable the construction of the line between Birmingham and Crewe and that this Parliament can consider whether the project should continue.
In recent weeks, the Government announced that a review will take place to examine whether the HS2 scheme should be approved, amended or scrapped, a move which follows Labour’s amendment to the Bill in the Commons calling for exactly this. However, a review in itself is not enough, and I would appreciate confirmation from the Minister that it will give particular consideration to the predicted timescale and costs, as well as the impact on the environment. Regarding the environmental implications, the impact on woodlands should be specifically analysed. HS2 remains the biggest single development threat to ancient woodland, with at least 108 ancient woods threatened along the route. Can the Minister confirm that the impact on ancient woodlands will be included in the review, and whether any further felling will take place while the report is being produced?
In addition to clarifying what will be included in the report, I would appreciate confirmation that sufficient parliamentary time will be given for both Houses to consider the published review and whether the Government’s resulting judgment is right. The Government’s decision to announce a review highlights further the need for repeated review through the duration of the project. The publication of quarterly reports would make HS2 Ltd more transparent and accountable to Parliament, allowing MPs and Peers to be better equipped to identify any problems and hold both the company and the Government to account. On this side of the House, we may explore legislating for such transparency, as our Commons colleagues attempted to do during the Bill’s passage through the Commons. Could the Minister clarify whether there any non-statutory plans for periodic reports?
Returning to the specifics of the project, I mentioned earlier that the original intention was for HS2 to form a wider network rather than a standalone piece of infrastructure. Above all else, we must remember that HS2 should be to the benefit of everyone across the UK, not only the narrow number who live close to each station. In order to guarantee that the rail line benefits those near to and far from it, we must ensure sufficient accessibility and connectivity.
The section of the route which the Bill deals with begins at Birmingham and passes along the Staffordshire-Shropshire border up to Cheshire. Along this route are counties where some communities lack any kind of meaningful public transport connection to HS2. Although Oswestry, for example—North Shropshire’s largest town—is only about 30 miles as the crow flies from Crewe, if you planned to leave there at 5pm on a weekday using public transport, you would not reach Crewe station until past 9pm. Oswestry is one of the many West Midlands towns without a railway station, and whilst the nearby Gobowen station is only a bus journey away, the buses can be hours apart and the train journey from there to Crewe requires lengthy changes. Do the Government have any plans to improve links to the line from towns such as Oswestry, and others such as Cheadle in Staffordshire?
Finally, I will touch briefly on compensation. There have rightly been changes in practice to ensure that landowners and freeholders receive compensation for the loss of their homes, but the application criteria for the various compensation schemes do not ensure that compensation is paid to tenants, including tenant farmers. Concerns have been raised that the Government have overlooked this issue and it may be necessary to explore a statutory option in the Bill’s later stages. Since such concerns were debated during the Bill’s passage through the Commons, can the Minister update the House as to whether a new scheme will be introduced?
HS2 is a wholly necessary project to create additional capacity and improved rail connectivity which, if carried out effectively, will increase productivity and encourage growth. In addition, it can help the UK to engineer a much-needed shift of people and goods to rail that is imperative in the light of climate change, and for air quality. However, with reports emerging of predicted delays and overspends, we need, above all, transparency and repeated reviews to consider whether the project will achieve what it intends to achieve. We must also ensure that the project is delivered to the benefit of the wider UK population, as was first intended.
Lord Teverson (LD)
My Lords, first, I congratulate the Minister on her enthusiasm about this project. It is good to get that positivity at the beginning of this debate and it is good to see this project gradually creeping, inch by inch, northwards out of the south-east and London. But, my goodness, the Government and other stakeholders make this argument difficult for us at a time when the forecast is for an increase in cost of between £26 billion and £33 billion and for the timetable to extend by five to seven years. In fact, I think it is now 10 years since the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, announced this project, if I have got this right.
Lord Teverson
Nine years. If we are talking about it being completed by potentially getting up to Leeds and Manchester only, not even to Scotland, then that is going to take some three decades—the sort of time between the end of the Second World War and 1975—which puts it in a timeframe of my lifetime. That seems to me to be absolutely ridiculous.
Another difficulty is our track record. For HS1, it took 16 years from the announcement to get the line built, 14 of which were after the Eurotunnel had been completed, whereas France, strangely enough, had managed to organise it so that the railway line was open at the same time as the tunnel—something which we completely failed at in this country.
But, like the Minister, I remain optimistic. Looking internationally, in Europe—to mention a few countries—Germany, France, Spain and Italy have these networks in place. In fact, France started in 1981 with its TGV infrastructure and now has some 2,500 kilometres of track. China, of course, manages to do these things even quicker, for reasons we understand: there is not quite the level of consultation that we have in this country. It now has some 30,000 kilometres of track. I understand that the line from Beijing to Shanghai—over 1,300 kilometres—was completed in 39 months from announcement to operation. I was tempted to recommend in my speech that we open the work up again and that the Department for Transport gets some Chinese contractors to bid for it, but perhaps that might not be the way to do this. The fact is that we are a long way behind in this country. We are talking about something, although now, nine years later, it is about whether we stop or start again. We need to move this project forward.
Why do we need to do that? For me, an up-to-date, fast train infrastructure is just a part of the tools of a modern economy. I do not see how we can get away from that. Yes, we should have started some three decades ago, but we now need to proceed. It is important from an environmental point of view. There are important issues around environmental corridors and ancient woodlands that I in no way minimise, but I believe this is one of the ways that we need to tackle a clean transport strategy for the future, not just for a decarbonised rail system but for cars and automotive emissions in particular. I hope that at some point, when this railway goes north of the border, we will be able to substitute rail travel for air travel. Those are just some reasons why we need to do it.
I know that some people have said that this is an old technology. I have heard that from people in the environmental area whom I truly respect, but these lines are still being built abroad at some pace. It is still part of a new technology. Rail, which started almost 200 years ago, is still an important infrastructure. This is not an old technology. Videoconferencing will not substitute the way forward. I also believe that what the Minister said about capacity is particularly important not just for passengers but for freeing up lines for freight services.
I will take just one other area. I think the Minister said—and other contributors from the Labour Benches in particular have said this—that this railway must be open to all. My experience, not just from HS1, is that not just business customers use these lines. Yes, there are some commuters as well, but it is very much ordinary citizens who use them. HS1, particularly for south-eastern services, has been a vital way for local or semi-regional services to rejuvenate part of the south-east in particular coastal towns and communities. This is important for all these reasons.
The question I really want to put to the Minister is about value for money. During research for this project, I tried to look at the comparative cost per kilometre for other high-speed trains and tracks in other nations, particularly in Europe—clearly, it is far lower in China because of the geography and the lack of consultation there. Even in France, it is estimated that the cost of one of their recent lines was one-sixth per kilometre of what it is in the UK. I can understand why it could be even 50% more, but to be multiples more I do not understand. The fundamental question I ask the Minister, in order to keep the confidence of me, our Benches and the taxpayer is: how can the Government ensure that this project, vital though it is, is delivered at the right cost and at the right time, so that we can keep a modern infrastructure in this country?
Lord Birt (CB)
My Lords, I shall be echoing the enthusiasm for this project of the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Teverson.
When I worked at Number 10, I led a year-long project for the then Prime Minister on our national transport infrastructure, working with a team of officials from the Department for Transport and the Cabinet Office. We identified clearly that the UK, a pioneer of transport infrastructure in the 19th and early 20th century, had fallen way behind. In the previous 50 years, we had invested a far lower share of GDP on our infrastructure than other leading countries. Our work demonstrated that, again and again, Governments of both major parties had cut back on planned capital spend whenever a national financial difficulty arose. As a result, the UK had by far the poorest road and rail infrastructure of any developed country. Few of our decision-makers have ever worked in the real economy, I am sorry to say, and they have scant understanding of modern business and of why fit-for-purpose, globally competitive infrastructure is so essential.
Today, business relies on people with advanced professional, specialist and technical skills: financial, strategic, digital, logistical, data science skills and many, many more. They often work for just a few months, on a project basis. Such skills are barely ever available locally in sufficient number. So many people at every level in modern business travel long distances to work, some daily and some weekly, up and out early on Monday, back late Thursday, home-working Friday. At the same time, goods, products and parts of every possible description are distributed urgently at every hour of the day, to every corner of the land. Strategic roads, lamentable though they are in the UK, are by far the most important part of our transport infrastructure. However, rail matters too, and our rail network has long been a disgrace.
We simply must create a long-term, 20 to 30-year plan, not only for effectively linking the huge metropolitan areas of the north to one another but also for linking them and the great Scottish cities to London. Beyond that, we must address lateral travel right across the UK. Manchester and Leeds are 40 miles apart, but it takes over an hour by rail to travel between them. Norwich is 206 miles from Liverpool; the train journey takes five and a half hours, travelling at a snail-rail pace of just 37 miles per hour. Someone leaving London on a Boeing 787 Dreamliner to New York at the same time that Norwich fans left for their opening match of the season against Liverpool just a few weeks ago would have arrived 17 minutes before them.
As the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, said, France opened its first HSR link from Paris to Lyon almost 40 years ago. Japan, Spain and France all have advanced HSR networks now around 1,800 miles in length. China has built an incredible 11,000 miles of high-speed rail in the last six years alone. This, my Lords, is our global competition. Currently, the UK’s only high-speed rail link, from Folkestone to St Pancras, is a measly 67 miles long. How embarrassing for our nation is that?
If HS2 survives its current scrutiny, we will still lag far behind other countries, albeit with a less shaming 400-mile HSR network all of our own. Whatever the project, it must of course be run efficiently, at least possible cost and with real environmental sensitivity. We would all agree on that, but only those who have never themselves managed a large, complex project can barefacedly protest when unexpected difficulties arise or when honest attempts to identify the full cost of a project prove flawed. Beyond that, those selfsame critics often show no appreciation at all of the difference between revenue and capital spend—the latter an investment to have an impact over many decades, perhaps centuries. The Minister reminded us that the west coast line was started 200 years ago. What a return on investment that has proved; it has paid for itself over and over again.
HS2 is a vital foundation of our future rail infrastructure and should be supported wholeheartedly. We should run the project as efficiently and as cost-effectively as we can. But we should also hold our nerve and, Brexit or not, in respect of our national infrastructure we simply must regain Britain’s one-time boldness and ambition from centuries past.
Lord Framlingham (Con)
My Lords, I am sorry to spoil the consensus but I really feel as though this is Groundhog Day. I cannot believe that we are proceeding with something so obviously discredited and which is probably about to be scrapped, with all the costs and damage involved. All my remarks apply to any HS2 scheme in its entirety.
The original concept of HS2 was built on speed. When this proved impractical, the selling point became capacity. This has now become discredited not because there is no need for extra capacity but because this railway line is clearly not where it is most needed. Costs are now completely out of control, completion dates are a joke and any idea of accountability or normal public and parliamentary scrutiny has long since been abandoned. Whistleblowers are now revealing just how bad the situation is and, despite desperate attempts to muzzle them, the truth is coming out. I understand that the whole question of fraud is now being investigated.
With little effort being made to remedy the situation, a committee of your Lordships’ House suggested to HS2 that it consider reduced speed, since this makes all kinds of sensible savings. It also asked HS2 to stop the line at Old Oak Common rather going into Euston, which has proved an intractable problem. Neither of these suggestions was taken up. HS2 carries on in its own chaotic, spendthrift way. This is not surprising since, when the previous Secretary of State for Transport was asked how much he was prepared to spend, he said, “What it takes”. What saddens me and makes me resist this Second Reading is HS2’s pig-headed unwillingness to listen to or take advice from anyone, no matter how qualified they are.
Nothing has changed since I put down my amendment in your Lordships’ House at Third Reading of the HS2 Bill in January 2017, which would have stopped the farce once and for all. I said on that occasion:
“This House has a simple choice before it this afternoon. If it believes that the HS2 project provides good value for money and will benefit the British public, it will vote against the amendment. But if it agrees that this was an ill-conceived project from the start, which has been entirely discredited, even during the three years it has been passing through Parliament, and that if allowed to proceed, it will result in massive expenditure and huge disruption in both London and the countryside for no discernible benefit at all, the House will support the amendment and stop this scheme before any … harm is done”.—[Official Report, 31/1/17; col. 1099.]
Sadly, my amendment was rejected and we have since had two and a half years of wasted money and damage to homes, lives and the environment. I did have some support from people who really understood the situation: the noble Lords, Lord Macpherson and Lord Burns, both Financial Secretaries to the Treasury when HS2 was being put through. Asked to explain his vote, the noble Lord, Lord Macpherson, said that it was,
“simply on value for money grounds. In a world where capital spending is rationed, there are many road … schemes which would give the taxpayer a better return”.
Other signatories, including the noble Lord, Lord Burns, also backed the move.
Not only must the House not proceed with the Bill, but the existing work on HS2 must be stopped before any more damage is done, particularly to our environment and to people’s lives, homes and businesses. It is criminal to be felling trees in preparation for something that probably is never going to be built. In a recent statement on HS2 in the other place, Jeremy Wright MP asked,
“may I press the Secretary of State on the point he made about enabling works? As he knows, there is more than one kind of enabling work currently under way. Some of the enabling work is the destruction of ancient woodland sites. There are seven of them in my constituency, along with a very old and much valued pear tree in the village of Cubbington. Given that he has announced an all-options review, including the possibility that this project will be cancelled or significantly revised, surely it is possible and sensible to categorise those types of enabling work that will do irreversible damage and postpone them until the review has concluded”.—[Official Report, Commons, 5/9/19; col. 356.]
In a similar vein, I have seen a plea from Councillor Kathy O’Donoghue concerning the section through Cheshire. She is extremely worried about what is happening in Cheshire, where there are now all sorts of problems. On 8 October, a planning application is going to be heard by Cheshire West and Chester Council to build a compound, which will have a huge effect on the area, where there are old salt mines. She is concerned that the planning application and the compulsory purchase order might go through before it has been decided that the project will proceed.
I was recently part of a judging panel in a competition to find alternative ways of spending £58 billion on our railway system. It was truly amazing to discover what a difference could be made nationwide, particularly in the north, with links east and west. In summary, we must call a halt to the existing work, particularly preparatory work, and immediately review the current position, as we are doing. We must spend every penny available for our railways on sensible, well thought out schemes. For heaven’s sake, we must find a way of costing these major infrastructure projects properly and supervising their construction in a sensible and professional way.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on her opening speech. As I will point out in a moment, there is a big problem with the conflict between that speech, which was full of enthusiasm, and the setting up of a fundamental review, which could lead to the cancellation of HS2. There is a clear left hand/right hand problem in the handling of this project at the moment, which will only serve to add to costs and delays. None the less, the noble Baroness’s speech was excellent and set out the whole case against having a fundamental review of HS2. My noble friend Lord Berkeley who, to my amazement, has agreed to serve on this extraordinary review, is not in his place this afternoon. However, I will recommend that he reads that speech and ceases his work forthwith. I also note the presence in the Chamber of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Walker of Gestingthorpe, who chaired the hybrid Bill committee on the London to Birmingham Bill. With the scale of the work required and the dedication of its members, that was one of the most heroic endeavours which any noble Lord has undertaken in recent times. It showed this House at its very best. I am looking around the Chamber to see who will be volunteering for the next hybrid Bill committee. My noble friend Lord Snape is nodding; maybe he will chair that committee. We would certainly welcome that.
The noble Lord’s work played a very significant part in taking this big infrastructure project forward, as did the work of the noble Lord, Lord Birt, when I became Secretary of State for Transport and devoted myself in a serious way to looking at the case for high-speed rail. He and the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, referred to France, but of course it is 55 years, more than half a century, since the Japanese opened their first and transformational high-speed line between Tokyo and Osaka. They started construction 60 years ago, so we have been taking some to catch up, but it was the noble Lord’s strategic review which put it in my mind that I should be looking very seriously at the case for a high-speed rail network in this country. This is a very good example—and we do not have many, I fear, in this terrible Brexit crisis—of constructive public policy which is factually based, learns from evidence and learns from international experience. As the noble Lord, Lord Teverson said, almost all the rest of the industrialised world, apart from the United States, has high-speed rail, and even the US is halfway through constructing a line from San Francisco to LA.
The noble Lord mentioned China. China has more high-speed rail than the rest of the world put together and has been building a network at great speed. When I was Transport Secretary the Chinese Transport Minister offered to build our high-speed line. He said to me over a very long dinner in the Transport Ministry in Beijing that he would build it for half the cost of the Germans—I assume that he assumed we were about to give a contract to the Germans. I said, “We have this thing called Parliament, Minister, and it has to agree to all this before we can start the construction, but by all means let us have a conversation in a few years’ time”. I regret to tell your Lordships that that Minister is now in jail under a suspended sentence of death for corruption, so although the Chinese are able to construct these projects quickly, there are downsides in the way they conduct their affairs in Beijing. I am glad that I am with your Lordships and not currently at Her Majesty’s pleasure.
The background to this is a great sense of urgency, as the noble Lord, Lord Birt, said, to see that our infrastructure matches that of other industrialised nations, all of which, apart from the United States, have been investing in high-speed rail to link their major conurbations. When the noble Lord, Lord Framlingham, said that this has been conducted without parliamentary consent and scrutiny, that is, of course, palpably untrue. There have been exhaustive debates. The work of the committee of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Walker, and that of the Select Committee in the other place was absolutely exhaustive.
Lord Framlingham
I am not sure that I said it had been conducted without parliamentary consent, did I?
Lord Framlingham
It is important to be accurate, with great respect to the noble Lord. He said that I said it had been done without parliamentary consent.
Lord Adonis
I did not. I said, “without proper parliamentary scrutiny”. There has been massive parliamentary scrutiny of this project. The Motion the noble Lord referred to, which he moved at Third Reading in January 2017, attracted 25 votes while there were 385 votes on the other side, so I do not think anyone can say that it is not the express will of Parliament that is leading HS2 to proceed.
The problem we have at the moment is, as I say, a left hand/right hand problem. On one hand, Parliament has given emphatic consent to this project to continue, and indeed to be authorised in the first place: not just the first phase, which passed this House by 385 votes to 25, and passed the House of Commons by 399 votes to 42—absolutely colossal majorities—but this Bill, extending HS2 from Birmingham to Crewe, was passed in the House of Commons in the middle of July by 263 votes to 17. There has been cross-party consensus and overwhelming support.
The Minister referred, and I assume that her officials were giving her very carefully crafted drafting in this respect, to the work taking place on HS2 as “preparatory work”. There is nothing preparatory about the work being done on HS2 at the moment. The line is being built; more than £5 billion has been spent and more than 1,000 people work at HS2 Ltd in Birmingham. If your Lordships go to Euston, you will see that it is not preparatory work that is leading to the virtual closure of the station, with huge tarpaulins up and big excavation works, but the construction of the railway line. It is right that this should happen, because, unless we start constructing it, it will never be there.
Parliament authorised this project to proceed two years ago. Billions of pounds have been spent, thousands of people are working on it—we expect this work to proceed. It is this that makes the review that has been set up so bizarre. At the same time as Parliament has given express and overwhelming authority for this work to proceed, thousands of people being employed and billions of pounds having been spent, what do the Government do, courtesy of the Prime Minister? They parachute in a fundamental review which is essentially conducting open-heart surgery on a moving patient, if I may mix my metaphors.
This whole project is being constructed, massive public expense is being entered into, and what do the Government do? They announce a strategic fundamental review, looking not just at the management of the project, which is absolutely appropriate to look at because it has not been good enough and is part of the reason we have the cost overruns, but the whole case for HS2, which has been approved by Parliament by majorities of more than 10 to one.
I see the clock is flashing, but I will carry on for a few more minutes because this is Second Reading.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
The noble Lord, Lord Framlingham, stuck to seven minutes.
Lord Adonis
There is not a fixed time limit. I will make two more points if I may.
When the noble Lord, Lord Framlingham, said that the case for HS2 when it started was on speed and not capacity, that was completely untrue. I published the White Paper on HS2 in March 2010, the opening words of which were,
“the Government’s assessment is … That over the next 20 to 30 years the UK will require a step-change in transport capacity between its largest and most productive conurbations … alongside such … capacity, there are real benefits for the economy and for passengers from”—
Lord Framlingham
Will the noble Lord give way, since he is determined to take up the time of the House that nobody else, I am sure, will take up? Does he understand that the title of this project is “High Speed Rail”?
Lord Adonis
It is a high-speed line, but from the beginning the prime case for HS2 has been additional capacity. I was reading the opening words of the White Paper, which continue,
“alongside such additional capacity, there are real benefits for the economy and for passengers from improving journey times and hence the connectivity of the UK”.
My final point is about the network effects which my noble friend on the Front Bench referred to. HS2 will be a crucial part of a new and upgraded national transport network. It will link into Crossrail in London through its junction at Old Oak Common; it will link in with three airports—Heathrow, which is close to Old Oak Common, Birmingham Airport, through Birmingham International, and Manchester Airport; it will link in with HS3 going east-west; it will free up huge capacity for freight and metropolitan commuter services into all of those three major conurbations.
The right thing for this House to do is give emphatic support to this Bill today. We cannot keep pulling up by the roots big infrastructure projects when they are being half-built. If we do it with this one, no one will ever believe that we will do something as big as this as a country again.
Lord Bradshaw (LD)
My Lords, the most important factor we should consider today is the impact that HS2 could have on climate change and the need to reduce emissions. Compare these figures from the Government: the emissions from a domestic flight are 254 grams, from a diesel car 171 grams—with four passengers they are 43 grams—from domestic rail 41 grams, and from a fully electrified railway 6.9 grams, a very small proportion of what comes from other places.
With these startling figures in mind, a fully electric railway such as HS2 has the potential to make a very significant contribution to making the country carbon-neutral. High-speed railways can have a dramatic effect on modal shift. Take these examples from Italy and Spain. From Rome to Milan, rail use has increased from 6% in 2008 to 74% by 2016, and in the case of Madrid to Seville, there has been an increase from 33% to 84% with the implementation of high-speed rail. Imagine the effect that such a modal shift would have on both aircraft and vehicle emissions on routes from Leeds, Newcastle and Scotland.
The primary argument that has been stated for building HS2 is to increase railway capacity in much of the country. As the main lines on the north-south axis are at full capacity and cannot cope reliably with existing traffic levels, the need for increased capacity is almost unanswerable.
Government constrains the railway in two ways. Insufficient modern infrastructure is provided; the railway industry and Network Rail are in part responsible for this, through lack of efficiency in the fragmented organisation that was created at privatisation, when so many competent engineers left the industry. Let us not forget that the east coast electrification was delivered on time, to a very tight budget, by British Rail. The engineering side of the railway is now being rebuilt under strong professional leadership, and the railway supply industry has got the message that only the most efficient outcomes will be acceptable. But the Government, for their part, need to recognise that improving infrastructure depends on their providing a continuous strategy of development stretching years ahead. They have failed to do this over many years. HS2 and its future must be seen in this context. The objectives of the National Infrastructure Commission should be changed to putting carbon reduction at the top of its list of priorities and revising the appraisal of investment to schemes with long-lasting benefits, such as further extensions to railway electrification.
The other way in which the Government constrain the use of the railway is railway fares. Government and Opposition blame railway fare rises on the franchisees, but they are entirely the Government’s decision. Commuters or business users using the railway face an annual fare increase. Car commuters are protected from that by the fuel tax freeze. What rational Government, allegedly concerned about pollution and the associated growing congestion on the roads, can defend this, particularly as it is associated with early deaths and damage to health? Other countries seek to encourage rail use to deal with these evils but in Britain, both the Conservatives and, I am sad to say, Labour, have closed their ears and listened only to the motoring lobby. There is an available solution: reduce fares and provide sufficient infrastructure.
HS2 can bring immense benefits to the north and the east Midlands—take, for example, the proposed Toton hub, which is not being decided today, which would bring together Nottingham, Derby and Leicester; Birmingham would be reached from Toton in 17 minutes, which at present takes 74 minutes by rail and 60 minutes by car—provided that the fares policy is reasonable. Similar activity is planned around Birmingham for the new railway. But can the Minister give any reassurances today about fares policy generally, and how it might affect HS2?
An important issue to address in considering the investment case for HS2 is project appraisal. Railway projects, particularly on the civil engineering side, have a very long timescale over which they may be enjoyed—the noble Lord, Lord Birt, referred to that. Tunnels and embankments last for well over a century, but current appraisal methodology has a high discount rate and does not take into account the period over which the assets will be in use. There is also the question of the enhancement of property values and the regeneration effects, which need to be factored into the equation. Surely it cannot be right that these benefits are not credited to the investment in HS2. There is an urgent need for the Government to overhaul the WebTAG arrangements they use to calculate the value of major infrastructure projects so as to reflect the longer-term benefits to communities.
I was once asked by a former Secretary of State for Transport—I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Adonis—why road schemes always come out better in investment appraisals than rail schemes. The answer lies in the methodology that is used: road investment schemes are appraised using the “value of time”. That is the time the investment is expected to save road users multiplied by the number of users and what they say they would pay for it through stated preference techniques. No money changes hands, although it does for rail journeys. Significant factors such as the short life of many road investment schemes, as they are overtaken by inevitable traffic growth, also need to be appraised. Railways are penalised for their long-term, lasting benefits in investment by the use of the discount rate, whereas road schemes are appraised using slovenly methods which the Government have failed to face up to for a long time.
The issue of routes across the Pennines and faster journey times between Glasgow and Edinburgh, for which there are now five direct railways, needs to be considered. The HS2 route, which we are considering in the Bill before us, has been adjusted to give Liverpool a direct rapid connection to London as well as to Manchester and Manchester Airport. Progress on modernising routes across the Pennines is incomplete. What is the department’s understanding—
Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)
I hope that the noble Lord has come to the end of his comments.
Lord Bradshaw
No. I have not been allowed enough time to debate this Bill because the Government of their own volition are proroguing Parliament. I am sorry, but I am not going to give way.
Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist
Perhaps I may remind the noble Lord that the advisory speaking time is seven minutes. We can be quite flexible, but not too flexible.
Lord Bradshaw
I am aware of the advisory speaking time. It was imposed on us by the Government’s edict.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, regardless of what the noble Lord has said, I think that it is quite unacceptable that speeches on a matter of such importance should be restricted in this way when in fact the House is under no time constraint whatever, except one artificially imposed by the Government.
Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist
The advisory speaking time is in deference to colleagues because we have a number of other issues to discuss later on this evening.
Lord Bradshaw
I am sorry, but the Prorogation of Parliament has had nothing to do with me. It is entirely at the Government’s behest.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)
Shouting at us for longer than the advisory speaking time really does not convince anyone. It does not look good and I think that we ought to have a little more courtesy.
Lord Bradshaw
I was going to go on to ask when progress is expected on the route across the Pennines. Do the Government constrain the activities of Transport for the North compared with the improvements made between Edinburgh and Glasgow and the plans of Midlands Connect by, for example, withholding funding from Transport for the North? The north of England should be very concerned about the slow rate of progress.
Much is made of disruption because of the noise and disturbance caused by building HS2, but measures will be introduced to minimise that. I am reminded of a conversation I had a couple of years ago with a Labour MP from Kent. I asked him whether his constituents had complained about the noise and impact of HS1. He replied, “No, but I had sackfuls of correspondence from them about the continuing noise and disturbance coming from the adjacent M20 motorway”. There is a light at the end of the tunnel for those living close to HS2. The benefits of and the green agenda for more motorway building are now seen as a totally incorrect response to the problems we face. The debate is about capacity for passengers and freight—there is no spare capacity on the railway. We want cleaner air, fewer people flying and less congestion, and to that end our railways need to be expanded.
However, this Government lack foresight. What Administration would build the east-west link from Oxford to Cambridge without electrifying it? It costs far less than coming back after the line is open. They should seek to modernise links between Southampton and the north and between Felixstowe and Nuneaton. Both schemes would remove many heavy lorries from our roads, much to the benefit of our climate change agenda.
Freight customers are lining up to use the railway. Creating an electrified rail network would reduce serious accidents. HS2 could and should reduce its costs by looking at what some regard as excessive technical standards and probably reduce the speed of operation. The extension from Old Oak Common to Euston should also be called into question. For the future, we need better and more capacity, and to that end HS2 should proceed.
Lord Snape
My Lords, as a former railwayman I have never made any secret of my support for this scheme, which in my view ought to go ahead as quickly as possible. The fact that both your Lordships’ House and the other place have voted heavily in favour of HS2 ought to mean that we do not hold things up by having this review. I am not as despondent about the review as some of my noble friends and other supporters. I suspect what is happening with the review is a minor rerun of Harold Wilson’s royal commission. Those of you with long memories will remember that he used to say 50 years ago that a royal commission takes minutes to set up and years to report, and that in the meantime the subject is buried in the long grass.
I suspect that this is a shorter version. The current Prime Minister is quite in favour of infrastructure projects. After all, he has cable cars going across the Thames as a legacy of his time as mayor. He tried to build a garden bridge at some cost—it was not a great success—and his buses, which are a tad uncomfortable in hot weather, are running around London as we speak. He has a record of being in favour of infrastructure projects.
The noble Lord, Lord Framlingham, alas, is not in his place. I am not quite sure why he needs to refer to those copious notes; he has been making that speech for so long he ought to be word perfect by now. It is a pity he fled the Chamber almost as soon as he had committed himself. I wish that he and others who criticise the scheme would come to Birmingham and see the benefit this great HS2 project has already brought to the city. Do they not care about the apprentice college that has already been set up and the number of young people employed in the railway industry as a direct result of this scheme?
I have brought with me today the current issue of Rail magazine. Its editorial is mild praise for the Prime Minister. It refers to “Cunning politics around HS2” and says that the “Oakervee Review is all about what’s best for Boris Johnson”. That endorses the point that I have just made that this review avoids any direct commitment, any go-ahead, before the general election—whenever that is to be held. Yet I do not believe that it is necessarily a precursor to cancellation.
My noble friend Lord Adonis was not too polite about my noble friend Lord Berkeley. I understand why he is not in his place today, given the fact that he serves on this committee. Again, I say to my noble friend Lord Adonis that perhaps he worries unduly. I have known my noble friend Lord Berkeley for 35 or 40 years. During my time in the other place, I served on committees examining two hybrid Bills to do with the Channel Tunnel. He was one of our advisers; he certainly advised us as individual members of those two committees. He is eminently well qualified as a civil engineer. Noble Lords will not be surprised to hear that the projected cost of the Channel Tunnel was originally £4.5 billion but that, neither despite of nor because of his advice, the actual bill was £12.5 billion. Therefore, he is used to cost overruns and I hope that he is not too concerned about the increase in costs.
Noble Lords said earlier that it is a pity that the costings cannot be more accurate when the projections are made for these major infrastructure projects. However, we all know that, if every single cost were taken into consideration, there might be problems with the land over which the tracks pass, or areas of the country where people are rich enough to afford the best lawyers to insist that the compensation is far higher than was first envisaged. If a project were put forward on that basis, it would never get past the Treasury’s preposterous regulations.
The noble Lord, Lord Birt, and to a certain extent the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, talked about road and rail infrastructure costs. It was pointed out how differently we treat these projects. Up and down the country at present, we are building what are known as smart motorways. They are not particularly smart if you break down on one of them but that is the name that they have been given. I have been in your Lordships’ House for 15 years and I spent a considerable number in the other place as well, but I do not recollect us ever having any debate in either House about smart motorways. These are major infrastructure projects which, as I far as I am aware, have never been subjected to the sort of critical analysis that rail projects face at present.
We all know the outcome of smart motorways: there will be even more traffic on our motorways. It is a proven fact that the money spent on modernising our road network results in more traffic, although not just this Government but successive Governments have always talked about congestion and pollution and what we can do to combat them. What the Conservative Party has done to combat them, as well as building smart motorways, is to freeze fuel duty for the last decade or so at an estimated cost of £50 billion. Now, it is said that it will reduce fuel duty in the run-up to the election—a complete coincidence, of course —and that will generate even more traffic. For that £50 billion or £60 billion, which will be the eventual cost, we could have built the infrastructure for HS2 twice over.
I seek to make one further point before I sit down. I understand that the Liberal party—although neither of its spokespeople have mentioned this—is looking at demanding that HS2 starts in the north of England rather than where it is due to start. I do not know whether that will be official policy. I read it in a newspaper, so it cannot be right, but that is what I have heard. I just caution against that and urge the Liberal Democrats to look at it again. In the same magazine there is a long article by a gentleman by the name of Mr William Barter, a former senior railwayman. He talks about the difficulties of that approach and what it would do to the existing train service.
I end as I started. I have always believed in this great project. I wish that we could have fewer reviews, but regardless of Brexit and whether or not there is a general election, the sooner it is under way and completed, the better.
Baroness Kramer (LD)
My Lords, I am a strong supporter of HS2. I was before I had the privilege of becoming a Minister in the last 18 months of the coalition Government, when I became the Minister responsible for phase 2. Hours and days were spent on the ground seeing not only extraordinary challenges but huge opportunities to regenerate economies that had fallen behind and essentially to change the future direction for many people, particularly in the north. However, I do not want to use this speech to talk in a general way about HS2; I want to focus on a number of issues that genuinely concern me.
Others have said this, but I shall pick it up in a slightly different way. This is clearly an opportunity for the Department for Transport, as well as other parts of government, to look again at how large, complex projects are costed. Recognising that the estimates cost of phase 1 had risen from £27 billion to somewhere between £36 billion and £38 billion did not happen overnight. Those who would have seen and recognised that they needed to make those changes never did so in the public arena—there was no transparency.
Frankly, I find this completely ridiculous. We should never look at a cost estimate in the early stages of a large and complex project and treat it as anything more than tentative. There should be an ongoing process of constantly updating. Having to say that the number is higher should not be treated as betrayal or failure; it is merely recognising and understanding the detail. I say to many here that this really needs a change in attitude at the Treasury and, frankly, much braver politicians in order to recognise that this will frequently be the pattern in projects of this kind.
I want to put on the record my gratitude to the whistleblowers who alerted many on the outside to the cost issues with HS2. I ask the Minister: will HS2 and the Government step in to amend some of the retaliation and harm that those whistleblowers have suffered? It was terrible and inappropriate, and it really needs to be remedied. We need that kind of honesty and integrity in this project.
I also want to look at cost-benefit analysis. My noble friend Lord Bradshaw referred to it in the more technical terms of the WebTAG. Allan Cook highlighted in his stocktaking report the inadequacies of the Government’s cost-benefit tools in providing any kind of sensible answer for projects on the scale of HS2, particularly with its broad impact on regeneration.
I feel this harshly. I had such fights inside the department during my period as a Minister. I have a banking background: I understand net present values and how you look at calculating returns. It was absolutely clear that the methodology was very inappropriate. The Government’s method completely fails to recognise more than very limited aspects of regeneration and economic benefit. This leads to poor decision-making on projects because, in particular, it does not recognise the uplift in land values. That would give us a much better mechanism for making decisions about these projects, as well as providing us with mechanisms to find ways to fund parts of these projects. Where there is land value uplift, we ought to be taking some of that in to pay for the project in the first place.
The current methodology is particularly hopeless for a phased project. Under its methodology, it captures all the costs of all the various phases and only includes a small part of the revenues and benefits that come from the later phases, because of the time guillotine inherent in the process. That has to be completely changed. I really think that it will take some outside pressure to get that kind of sense. It is perfectly within the department’s scope to look at all of that again.
I have a question for the Minister. I am really concerned about what on earth we will do with passengers now that the opening date of phase 1 is estimated not to be 2026 but somewhere between 2028 and 2031. I went into a lot of those passenger forecast numbers closely when I was in the Government. Even then, I was terrified that we could not cope with the forecast growth in passengers on routes between London and the Midlands with a 2026 opening. I do not know how we will cope without HS2 open until 2028 or even 2031.
I know that the industry is trying to use things such as changes in the way it manages fares to redistribute passengers through the day. Frankly, it will only make changes at the edges. In a couple of speeches, I joked about strapping passengers to the roofs of trains. It is no longer looking like a joke. We really are looking at tremendous overcrowding and over-demand. I have no idea what is being put in place now that we know that the opening of HS2 phase 1 will be delayed. This really ought to be a very urgent project.
As I said, I wanted to bring up one or two issues. Perhaps the Minister could help me with one last issue. HS2 is a project that demands sophisticated rail. I know that the whole industry has been reliant on British steel as the source of that rail. We know that the future of British Steel is in question. I hope she can explain to the House how we should respond or how she would see this set of issues. If somebody came to me and asked what major risks could further delay the project and put up costs in a way that we had not anticipated, that one would be somewhere near the top of my list.
Lord Greaves (LD)
My Lords, I start by saying that I agree with pretty well everything that everybody—except for one noble Lord—has said so far; I will try not to repeat those things. I say gently before beginning that I have looked in the Companion and I cannot find anything at all about the ability of the Government to impose arbitrary time limits on speeches beyond the normal time limits for Second Reading debates. If we are to do this in future, it is something that should be discussed.
It is nearly 10 years since all this started, and where are we? I am tempted to say that we have got as far as digging up cemeteries. I accept what the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said that there is rather more work than that going on, but it is taking an inordinate amount of time. The proposed route for phase 2a, which we are discussing today, was first published four years ago. I compare this not with China—as a place where things can be done without asking people what they think—but with France. I go to the Pyrenees most summers and I watched the construction of the line from Tours to Bordeaux, extending the existing TGV line, which seemed to be done in a small number of years. I have travelled on it twice in the last two years; I have to say that not only does the line seem okay but so does the new TGV, which I travelled on, there and back, two or three weeks ago.
Last Friday, going home I travelled on one of the new Azuma trains from Kings Cross to Leeds. In comparison—from the point of view of the ride, the acoustics and, of course, the infamous seats—I felt that I had gone back 40 years. Then I reminded myself that the Azumas were ordered and specified by the Government themselves, which I think says something.
All we get are reviews and promises of delays. I am reminded that the Victorians effectively built the mainline network in England in less than a quarter of a century. We seem to take a very long time indeed to do these things. A lot of the opposition to HS2 is about the competence, efficiency and effectiveness of the people doing it: the Government, HS2 Ltd and everybody else. We must distinguish between the need for the line—the project itself—and the need to improve the way these things are done. People attacking the way that it is being done—alleged efficiency, overspends or whatever—is not an argument against building the line; it is an argument to say that we need to do things better in this country.
The proposal that we are talking about today—extending to Crewe—is a relatively small part of what I hope will, in the future, become a substantial network connecting the main regional centres of the country. We need to start thinking about it in those terms. It is not a question of a line from Birmingham, Manchester or Leeds to London, with all this London-centric thinking. We should be thinking about a network that connects all the major cities in the area.
As far as extending it to Crewe is concerned, it would be a very good thing for people in Lancashire and the north-west, as well as, I would hope, people in Scotland. It would allow trains from the new HS2 line to run further north, just like the train I caught to Lourdes the other day—I have to say I was going there for the mountains and not for other purposes. That train slowed down after Bordeaux and became a normal fast express. Then, when it got past Dax, it slowed down a lot. The advantage is that people can do a lot of the journey at high speed and then continue to other places. When the new line to Crewe opens, as I hope it will, it should be the basis of Scottish services as well, not just services to the north-west.
Lord Adonis
It is integral to the plan that there will be through services to Glasgow and Edinburgh.
Lord Greaves
Absolutely—but these things need to keep being said, because people who are not served by the particular line concerned say all the time, “It’s no use to us”. People in the north-east are saying that—quite wrongly, because the proposal, especially when we get to phase 2b and so on, is to run services through to the north-east.
I live in Colne in Lancashire, at the end of the worst branch line in the north of England, and I am acutely aware that when the Prime Minister comes to the north and promises a fantastic new HS3—or HS15—or a northern power something or other, over the short distance between Manchester and Leeds, it is no use to us. There may well be merit in building a new high-speed line across the Pennines between Leeds and Manchester, but it is not the top priority for people in the north of England.
What people in the north of England want is an efficient network on the existing lines between their cities and towns. The geography of the north of England consists of a series of scattered towns and cities that need a network connecting them all, not just one line between one big city and another, which might perhaps stop at Bradford but nowhere else in between.
What we in the north of England urgently need as a priority is upgrading existing trans-Pennine routes, reopening Colne to Skipton to allow a new freight line as well as local services, reopening Woodhead to provide Sheffield and Manchester with a good service that way, and electrification of the substantial network. That is what we should be spending money on, not a short vanity project—it would not exist in the short term anyway; it would take 20 years—between Manchester and Leeds. The Bill, however, has my total support.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb
My Lords, I am sorry to be slow in rising to my feet to speak, but I was so fascinated by the other speeches. I agree that the Minister gave a passionate opening speech, but I was not particularly convinced by it because I have huge concerns about HS2. Saying that there were 17,000 pages of environmental assessments did not really sway me, because the crucial thing is what is in those assessments. If they are 17,000 pages of nonsense, there is not much value in them.
Greens love railways: I love railways. I do not fly, I go on holiday by rail, and my partner works on the railways. I have nothing against railways. But I do have huge problems with HS2. As a Green I have lots of different concerns, but obviously, environmental concerns head the list. The Government have decided to shut Parliament down today, which does not allow us much time to speak. But that does not mean that sticking to an advisory time is not a courtesy to the rest of us, and to other people who have business coming through later.
The Government have commissioned a review, which is an excellent thing to do. I support that wholeheartedly. But I am curious about why they think it is worth putting the Bill through. Are we simply expected to speculate on the costs and the benefits? As the cost has been rising, the benefits have supposedly been rising at the same rate, but I am very dubious about that. Perhaps that is something that particularly needs looking at in the review.
It seems plain daft to pass a Bill before the review comes out and we have a view from those conducting it. However, I am glad that the Government are doing it, and I hope that they will take a serious look not only at the spiralling costs in order to develop a more sensible budget but at the cost of HS2 to our natural world, which I do not think has been fully explained. Local people are extremely concerned about local conditions; they are the people who actually understand their areas and they can see what is happening. In view of the climate emergency that Parliament declared back on 1 May this year, will the Minister confirm that the review will also be thinking about the enormous cost that HS2 is placing on the natural world?
We are looking at this second stage after the first stage has been started, and that first stage was actually extremely damaging in environmental terms. There are horror stories of environmental destruction and failed attempts at so-called biodiversity offsetting. Ancient woodlands were mentioned earlier; once an ancient woodland is destroyed, there is no way to replace it. In the meeting that I attended which the Minister was kind enough to offer us, I asked about that and was assured that there would be no net loss of biodiversity. I am afraid that that is absolute hokum because you cannot replace ancient woodland or the biodiversity that lives there.
At least 30% of the trees planted by HS2 have been allowed to die by neglect, and local campaigners say that the number is actually higher. The land manager of an ancient meadow has described his precious habitat as having been destroyed to create several access bridges for the purpose, ironically, of creating a biodiversity zone. Wildlife trusts have spoken out against HS2 and its plans to destroy precious habitats long before any habitat replacement is completed, leaving wildlife with nowhere to go. Will Ministers be visiting at least a few of the hundreds of wildlife habitats that will be permanently scarred or entirely destroyed by this project and listen to local people, who can explain it with as much passion as the Minister has to complete the project?
If this is how HS2 has been proceeding under legislation for the first section, where it is clear that the Bill has totally failed to protect the environment, that makes it very likely that the next section will also be hugely damaging. It is for those reasons that I will be opposing the Bill and proposing amendments that seek to protect the natural world that HS2 is destroying.
I could stand here for a further three or even six minutes and tell noble Lords about my holidays by rail, which obviously I love, but I am going to sit down.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness. I do not entirely agree with her but I thought that she put her points in a very pithy way. Clearly the trade-offs between the benefit of HS2 in environmental terms and some of the environmental defects are those that always have to be weighed. The problem that I have is that sometimes we weigh these balances for so long that in the end we make too little progress.
My frustration, which I share with other noble Lords, is that this country is so bad at major infrastructure projects, yet in HS1 we have an example of a brilliant project that I think was undertaken on time and on budget without one major health and safety victim. It is unbelievable that we are spending so many years building what is still a relatively short piece of track. There have been many reviews of major infrastructure projects in this country—my noble friend has looked into this matter on a number of occasions—but, given our economy and the challenges that we face, we cannot afford to mess around any longer with these critical infrastructure projects.
There are obviously questions to be answered about HS2. We have heard about the cost and delay overruns. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, raised the issue of whether there was overspecification in the original project, which the review will no doubt look into. Like my noble friend Lord Adonis, I think the Minister put the case for HS2 extremely persuasively and, essentially, I want to endorse what she said. I also wanted to touch briefly on the impact on the economy of Birmingham and the West Midlands, about which I am most informed.
Just looking at the capacity crisis on our railways, it is a no-brainer that we have to increase capacity one way or another. Whatever the cost overruns on HS2, the capacity issue simply will not be washed away. If, for instance, the review suggested that HS2 should be cancelled, or in the end the Government decided to do this, they will still be left with this incredible capacity issue. What are the alternatives? One is to four-track the west coast main line between Rugby and Wolverhampton, but the cost and disruption would be enormous. The same would be said if the Chiltern line from London to Birmingham was changed to a four-track line. That is clearly another option, as is turning trains into double-deckers. This is feasible, but bridges would have to be raised and services would be disrupted for a very long time and at huge cost. So what are the alternatives? In the end, the review is bound to conclude that there is no alternative to carrying on with HS2.
My noble friends Lord Adonis and Lord Snape made the point that construction has started. A huge number of jobs have already been created in Birmingham and the West Midlands and the National College for High Speed Rail has been established. A huge amount of investment is taking place in the city of Birmingham on the strength of HS2. The West Midlands economy is fragile. The potential of Brexit and the damage it could do to our motor industry is immeasurable. Cancelling HS2 at the same time as we face these huge uncertainties would have a devastating impact on our economy. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, rightly referred to those who are talking to the Government. Our own Select Committee looked at this and focused on the railway challenges facing the north of England. I sympathise with noble Lords who are concerned about the railway infrastructure in the north of England, but I do not think that stopping the London to Birmingham part of HS2 and starting again in the north is a rational or sensible approach to delivering this railway.
I want to thank the Minister, who has my full support for this Bill. We will attend it with great interest at some point in the future—maybe the distant future. I want to say to the Government that this was a convenient way to get HS2 off the election agenda, but in the end, they will have to make a hard decision. From all the Minister has said, I think she knows already that the only decision that can be made is to continue with HS2. I very much hope that she will do that.
The Earl of Glasgow (LD)
My Lords, I will make a very short speech, because most of the points I wanted to make have already been made in a much better way than I would make them, particularly by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and my noble friends Lord Bradshaw and Lord Teverson. I wanted to take part in this debate because I was very nervous that the escalating cost of HS2 might provide an excuse for this Government to abandon the project altogether. There was much talk of this, or of at least postponing its construction. They are also giving hope to those who have been opposed to HS2 from the start, and we have one Peer who represents that view.
It seems that all recent engineering projects, Crossrail being the most obvious example, end up costing excessively more than was down in the original budget. I can never understand why the original planners do not include sufficient contingency for the unexpected, which by now should be classed as the “more than expected”. Going vastly over budget might well mean that heads should roll but it should not be a reason for abandoning HS2 altogether, particularly as about a quarter of that budget has already been spent. I believe that detractors of the HS2 project do not fully understand its importance or its value to the country’s infrastructure. Some even regard it as no more than a vanity project. They cannot justify its cost if it does no more than get people from Manchester to London in half the time.
I wish it had not been called “high-speed rail”, because its faster speed is not the main reason why we need it. The main reason is that it will be a brand-new railway line and, apart from HS1, the first major railway line since the 19th century. It will relieve much of the pressure on the spaghetti of existing railway lines, in the Midlands and the north in particular, and it enables them to provide more necessary capacity. So, when detractors say that money should be better spent improving those 100-year-old lines, the existence of HS2 will be a major factor in achieving just that.
There are so many other advantages too, many of which have already been pointed out. It brings London and the cities of the north closer together. It is a great boost to our engineering industries, as has already been pointed out by many. For instance, railwaymen and engineers who have been working on Crossrail can now look forward to continual employment. The arguments that say it will ruin our countryside are complete nonsense. For a short period of time earthworks and earth-moving machines may be unsightly, but how many beauty spots in Britain today are any less beautiful for having a railway line running through them? Some would say the railway line enhances the place.
The most important advantage in the medium and long term, which was well expressed by my noble friend Lord Bradshaw, is that all innovations and improvements of our railways—and HS2 is the major one—will make lorry and car traffic less essential and, I would like to think, internal flights within Britain unnecessary. Global warming is a serious threat and we are only just beginning to take the issue more seriously.
I know that many in the Minister’s party are very against HS2, and I would like to be assured that there is no way that the Government are going to turn back on this. It must go ahead, as I think most of the speakers have already said today.
Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)
My Lords, I declare my interest as chair of The Woodland Trust. There may well be benefits to HS2, such as capacity and carbon reduction, but they are worth nothing if that involves destruction and damage of irreplaceable ancient woodland habitat. It is gimmicky to say that ancient woodlands are the cathedrals of the natural world, but that is what they are. If we were going to line up 108 cathedrals along the route of HS2, I suspect your Lordships’ House would be more exercised. However, that is the reality of what we are doing.
HS2 poses the biggest development impact threat on ancient woodland. Phase 1 was bad enough and very little has been learned from that unhappy process, despite protestations from the HS2 company that it would learn from the first phase. Phase 2a has an impact per mile 23% greater than phase 1, the total of which, as I said, is now up to 108 across the length as currently planned. I do not see any signs of learning from the company.
Today, the Minister has boasted about the route avoiding protected areas such as areas of outstanding natural beauty, Natura 2000 sites, which are protected by European law, and SSSIs. Some of these habitats are replaceable—we could build them again—but ancient woodland is irreplaceable, cannot be built again and has not been so spared. Yet the Government have only recently given ancient woodland a level of protection similar to the more protected sites in the National Planning Policy Framework, although infrastructure projects are of course exempt from it. I will talk about that in a moment.
The Minister also talked about newt schemes. I do not know whether your Lordships are intimately aware of the UK’s newt position, but we are newt central in the world. We have more newts than any other nation. This is probably a good reason why we should look after them, but on the other hand it probably means that they are not quite as precious as the few fragments of ancient woodland—that irreplaceable natural resource which cannot be recreated and is being destroyed with equanimity.
I would like some ancient woodland schemes, but that does not mean translocation. There is no evidence that moving an ancient woodland across the countryside and dumping it somewhere else works. In recent months the Government have touted their commitment to net zero carbon policies and net biodiversity gain. Ancient woodlands are hugely important to both policies. Because of the carbon stored in ancient woodlands, in its soils and its old trees, if such a scheme was enacted its level of protection would mean a considerable amount of carbon would be stored. The Government’s policies are great, but their implementation seems hugely lacking. I wrote that and thought, “I wonder why I’m surprised”.
HS2 should be demonstrating higher standards, particularly if it is seeking to become an exemplar of the best Britain can do. The destruction planned is not such an example, because the Government’s pledge to leave the environment in a better state will fail. HS2 prided itself on a pledge to deliver no net loss to biodiversity. However, it will not achieve this because of the loss of irreplaceable ancient woodland.
HS2 should tunnel wherever possible to avoid such impacts and not hide behind the arguments raised by noble Lords today about cost. In reality, the costs of any tunnelling to avoid ancient woodland sites are utterly dwarfed by expenditure on the project overall. Yet, the habitat concerned that would be safe is irreplaceable. Let us have a tunnel to avoid the biggest damaging impact of phase 2a, at Whitmore Wood in Staffordshire. Let us consider whether a slower speed railway, as recommended by the Economic Affairs Committee, would enable cost reduction by avoiding environmentally sensitive areas and the need for compensation and the tunnelling I have talked about. After all, this line is supposed to be about capacity rather than speed. Let us have it slower and wriggle round some of these 108 cathedrals that we have up the route.
I will finish by speaking briefly—I will stay within my seven minutes—about the Oakervee review, which is amazingly short. I have just met with its chairman, who tells me he will complete it within four or five weeks. One asks oneself, bearing in mind the degree of information on HS2, how it will be able to review everything in four weeks. Its terms of reference do not include environmental impacts and costs, only the environmental benefits. That needs to be changed. There needs to be at least one environmental expert on the panel. It does not have one; it is full of engineers and economists.
Most importantly for the review, because of the preparatory works that will come to pass in the next few weeks—in fact, they are not preparatory works but the route actually being built—many of the ancient woodlands I have been talking about will be destroyed or damaged in September and October. If this review is going to reach a view within four or five weeks and the Government, with their usual commendable alacrity, are going to come to a conclusion on it, it does not seem too much to ask the Minister that we pause those preparatory works, which would have an irreversible impact on ancient woodlands, until the results of the review and the Government’s subsequent actions are known.
I share noble Lords’ views about the very poor process we have for driving forward major infrastructure in this country. If I had my way, we would sweep away the hybrid Bill process; it is a nonsense. We give people hope that they may be able to influence the scheme long after the line of route has been decided, when in reality they cannot. We have not found the best of British ingenuity to avoid some of the conflicts that people are campaigning on, and I believe that we can. It is not about development versus the environment—British ingenuity should be capable of delivering both—but let us smarten up our process as well. It was invented 150 years ago and, frankly, my God, it looks like it.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, I put my name down for this debate, but withdrew it when I feared that I would have to leave before it ended. I am happy to take less time than intended, and so hope that I may be allowed to speak in the gap, in order to give a West Yorkshire—and, in particular, a Bradford—perspective on the way in which phases 2a and 2b fit in with the northern network, which we need for modernisation.
The transformation of the northern economy is what we are talking about once we start moving HS2 north of Birmingham. The eastern leg is as important as the western leg, linking Birmingham with Manchester and Liverpool, and then the second leg, linking those cities with Sheffield and linking Sheffield to Leeds. That then forms a triangle in which the new lines that Transport for the North are talking about, between Liverpool and Manchester and between Manchester and Leeds, also provide the fast links between the northern cities as far as Newcastle and Hull, which we also desperately need.
This is a matter of capacity. I was talking to someone from Transport for the North last week, who told me that we can get freight by rail between the Humber and the Mersey, provided that we do not mind the freight trains going via Daventry, because we lack the capacity and the tunnel space across the Pennines. That is part of the case for a new line, and for modernising the existing lines across the Pennines. I speak particularly from a Bradford perspective in saying that the transformative effects of a Manchester to Leeds line which went through Bradford city centre would be transformative for the whole area. The current value-for-money analysis does not begin to take that into effect. We need all of these lines, and this means a higher level of public investment in infrastructure for the north of England, after decades in which rail investment has been in the south of England.
I speak as someone who has travelled between Leeds and Manchester, and between the north and the south, for more than 50 years. I have seen how little impact any new investment has made there. We need phase 2a, phase 2b and HS3, and we need the Government to move on them all as fast as possible. This is how we begin to transform the economy of the north of England, by linking Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, Newcastle and Hull so that it is easy to move between them, and so that the potential dynamic of these cities can be developed together. Successive Governments—including Labour Governments—have failed to deal with this over the last 30 or 40 years. Now is the time to have faith. Therefore, I strongly support this Bill.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, I start with a reference to procedure. The Government’s attempt to impose an arbitrary time limit on speeches on this Bill is a great discourtesy to the House, and in particular, to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and my noble friend Lord Bradshaw. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, was the Minister who initiated this scheme, and my noble friend Lord Bradshaw has a lifetime of experience as a leader within the railway industry. We are talking about a multibillion-pound project. The Government should cease to be carried away by their attempts to stifle scrutiny of their record on Brexit by proroguing this House; they should be paying attention—proper attention—to what is said here.
The Liberal Democrats have always been, and remain, firm supporters of HS2. In our view, a high-speed spinal railway linking London to Scotland is the correct strategy, for two fundamental reasons. First, the Midlands and the north of England badly need economic regeneration and to share in the prosperity of the south-east. Improved long-distance communication is fundamental to this. Secondly, we have a moral duty to use every available initiative to reduce carbon emissions, which threaten our planet. HS2 does this by encouraging people to take the train for long journeys rather than their car, or even to fly. It is not as straightforward as counting the number of people who will sit on HS2 trains. HS2 will take direct intercity services on to dedicated high-speed lines and hence free up capacity on existing lines for more trains on local and regional routes. That will make daily commuting to work by train a feasible option outside London; it will therefore get people out of their cars and reduce congestion on our roads. So long as the whole project goes ahead, it will remove the attractiveness of internal flights. It will free up new freight paths, taking freight off the roads. It is important to remember that freight reduces carbon emissions by 76% compared with road haulage.
The west coast main line is the busiest mixed-use railway line in Europe. We have simply run out of options to squeeze any more capacity from it. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and my noble friend Lord Bradshaw both made that point. We have no more rail paths available and have already used the option of longer trains. To those who say, “Just improve what we already have”, I respond that that would lead to a decade or more of intense disruption to existing routes. I say this as a regular commuter on the Great Western Railway line, where for years we have been disrupted by the electrification process—a process that we welcome strongly but it is very disruptive.
The cost of HS2 is eye-watering but so are the benefits: just look at the economic growth already impacting on Birmingham. When the whole HS2 project is completed, it will link 25 towns and cities and 30 million people. The Liberal Democrats are supportive but, as the House will have heard today from my noble friends, we are very much critical friends, so unlike the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, I welcome this review. I am reassured that the panel appointed to undertake the review is sufficiently experienced and balanced in its viewpoints to ensure that it is not being used just as an excuse to cancel the project. I have to confess that that was at the top of my mind when I heard that there was to be a review. It has been a very real fear. The Prime Minister himself has sown seeds of doubt and many Tory MPs have taken political pot-shots at the project. I note that most of them represent seats in the south-east, where transport spend is three times per head of population that in the north of England. I feared that the Government could be searching for a reason to cancel it because the huge costs of a no-deal Brexit will simply swallow up funding for major projects such as this across the country.
Of course, HS2 has left itself open to criticism, with sloppy management and spiralling costs. It has 1,300 staff and, astonishingly, more than one-quarter of them earn more than £100,000 a year. Even more surprisingly, despite those pay packets, they do not seem to have the skills required at this time. Consultants were employed on 31 separate occasions in 2013, at a cost of £60 million. There are things in the management of HS2 that have to be addressed. The project was agreed in 2013 so rising costs are not a surprise, but it is clear that they are not currently under control. I refer noble Lords to the National Audit Office report, which referred to the use of,
“fragile numbers, out-of-data data and assumptions which do not reflect real life”.
This review gives us an opportunity to nail down these costs and to address some of the proposals to reduce costs; for instance, reducing the length of rail line that will go through tunnels. Another suggestion is the use of Old Oak Common as a terminus, at least in the early years, to avoid a decade of costly disruption at Euston. The question that has to be asked—and will, I hope, be answered—is: is this being overengineered? Would it be significantly cheaper to cut, say, 20 mph off the maximum speed? It is clear that the time advantage over road travel will be very substantial, even at a lower speed.
Concerns remain, of course. There are concerns over delays which add to our unwelcome reputation as a nation which is pretty hopeless at building major projects. My noble friend Lady Kramer referred to the impact of overcrowding on existing railways that will be caused by the delays to this project. I caution that ending up with just phase 1 of HS2 would make Birmingham an outer London suburb—a new commuter zone. That would be the worst of all worlds. I live in Wales, so I am concerned that the vision of the Crewe hub is implemented. That in itself could transform the economy of north Wales. The review must bring this project under control and satisfy the critics. It must reassure those who, like me, support the principle of HS2 but worry about efficiency, cost control, transparency, whether those who live nearby are being given a fair deal, and the environmental impact of the building process. The review must clear the air and enable a fresh start on a firmer basis. My noble friend Lord Teverson raised the issue of comparative costs with other countries and used an example from France. Will the review look as far as comparative costs with other countries? It should do so. Some £8 billion has already been spent on this, 9,000 jobs have been created and 2,000 businesses are involved.
At this time of national emergency, when we face the potential for a massive economic downturn, it should be unthinkable that we cancel HS2. Instead, the Government should redouble their efforts and their ambitions and recommit to building the whole route to Scotland. They should also announce the powers and funding for Transport for the North, so that it can plan and build the east-west rail routes—the sorts of routes that have been referred to by my noble friends Lord Wallace and Lord Greaves. These need to be created to hang on the HS2 spine, in order to maximise its success.
We understand fully that there must be no blank cheque for HS2. It must be brought under control without undermining the central scope or purpose of the project. In the long term, as a country, we simply must look again at how we approach such projects. We need to be able to look long term in order to make difficult, ambitious, big spending decisions, to support and control our long-term infrastructure vision. We have failed for decades to do this. I realise it is a bit of a forlorn hope at the moment, when the Government are consumed with short-term tactics, but as a nation, we really have to get to the basis of this.
Lord Rosser (Lab)
My Lords, not only does High Speed 2 get delayed but even this debate on the Government’s latest High Speed 2 Bill has had to be rescheduled to today from last week. This Second Reading debate is taking place in something of a vacuum. The Government are inviting us to support the Bill, which gives statutory powers to enable the construction and maintenance of phase 2a of High Speed 2 from the West Midlands to Crewe, yet they apparently do not know whether they will be pulling the plug on the whole project in a few weeks’ time. We await the outcome of the review, which is considering whether or not HS2 should still proceed, and if so on what basis, or whether it should be cancelled.
There must be a real prospect of the Government cancelling HS2, first, because the Prime Minister, as with the third runway at Heathrow, has a direct constituency interest and is neither project’s number one fan, and secondly, because the Government have a noteworthy track record of cancelling projects extending railway electrification which they have previously promoted or supported. As recently as 15 July the Government were fully committed to HS2. In the Commons during the final stages of this Bill, the Minister said of HS2:
“It will be transformative not only because it will increase capacity and reduce the time it takes to reach eight of our top 10 cities, but because, along the way, it will smash the north-south divide, creating jobs and opportunities for people in the midlands and the north”.—[Official Report, Commons, 15/7/19; col. 646.]
Earlier, in a Written Statement on 6 February this year, the Government described HS2 as,
“a transformational infrastructure project that will improve people’s journeys, create jobs, generate economic growth and help to rebalance our country’s economy. HS2 is more than a railway and the project’s vision is to be a catalyst for economic growth. It has cross party support and support from councils, LEPs, Metro Mayors and businesses who can see the transformational potential”.—[Official Report, Commons, 6/2/19; col. 15WS.]
Cross-party support includes us, but does that reference to HS2 having cross-party support include the Government? If it does, why was the inquiry set up with a remit that included looking at whether HS2 should proceed at all? This was a point raised by my noble friend Lord Adonis and we expect an answer from the Government when they respond to this debate.
What have the Government just found out that led them to set up the review last month, but of which they were presumably unaware when they were extolling the virtues of HS2 so enthusiastically in the Commons the month before? Will they say by when they expect to receive the findings of the review and when they expect to announce their decision on the future or otherwise of HS2? I ask that in the context of contradictory statements from the Government. On 25 July, in response to a Commons Question on constructing from the north, the Prime Minister said:
“I have asked Doug Oakervee, the former chairman of Crossrail, to conduct a brief six-week study of profiling of the spend on HS2, to discover whether such a proposal might have merit”.—[Official Report, Commons, 25/7/19; col. 1476.]
Which is right about the purpose of this review: the Prime Minister’s statement that it is,
“a brief six-week study of profiling of the spend on HS2”,
or the terms of reference referring to,
“whether and how we proceed with HS2”?
What is the truth, as opposed to confusing statements, about the timescale of the review? On 25 July, the Prime Minister spoke of a “brief six-week study”. That six weeks is already up. Or is it meant to be six weeks from when the Secretary of State for Transport announced the review, on 21 August, in which case the review report will be ready at the beginning of next month? Yet the Government now say it will be completed in the autumn. Is it a six-week review, as the Prime Minister so clearly said? On the assumption that it is, when did the six-week period start?
It is to be expected in a Second Reading debate on a Bill enabling a further stage of HS2 that the Government would say something about not only the costs and benefits of the further stage, but the extent to which the quoted costs and benefits expected for the first stage were or were not still on track. On 15 July the Government told the Commons,
“there is only one budget for HS2, and it is £55.7 billion. The bit we are talking about today, phase 2a, is £3.5 billion. The benefit-cost ratio is £2.30 for every £1 spent”.—[Official Report, Commons, 15/7/19; col. 647.]
Recently, though, the Secretary of State for Transport said in a Written Statement that the chairman of HS2 did not believe that the current scheme design could now be delivered within the budget of £55.7 billion, set in 2015 prices. Instead, the Government said, the chairman of HS2 now estimated that the current scheme required a total budget, including contingency, of £72 billion to £78 billion, again in 2015 prices; and in 2019 prices, £81 billion to £88 billion, against a budget equivalent of £62.4 billion. On the basis of those revised figures for the cost of completing all stages of HS2, will the Government indicate what percentage of those figures is to cover contingencies?
The Government went on to say that HS2 no longer believes that the current schedule of 2026 for initial services on phase 1 was realistic, and that instead there should be a range of dates for the start of the service. The recommendation of the chairman of HS2 was now 2028 to 2031 for phase 1, with a staged opening, starting with initial services between Old Oak Common and Birmingham, followed by services to and from Euston later. HS2 Ltd now, it seems, expects that phase 2b to Manchester and Leeds will open between 2035 and 2040. Significantly for this Bill, the chairman of HS2, according to the Secretary of State, now considers that phase 2a, from the West Midlands to Crewe, should be delivered to the same timetable as phase 1. Furthermore, the chairman was now of the view that the benefits of the current scheme were substantially undervalued. All these views from the chairman of HS2 Ltd would, said the Secretary of State, be assessed by the review panel, which would provide,
“independent recommendations on whether and how we proceed with the project”.—[Official Report, Commons, 3/9/19; col. 7WS.]
I hope the Government can tell the House today that they had no inkling that the costs were rather higher than previously stated and that HS2 would not be delivered within previously announced timescales when, in asking for support for the Bill, they told the Commons on 15 July,
“there is only one budget for HS2, and it is £55.7 billion”.—[Official Report, Commons, 15/7/19; col. 647.]
Even the £3.5 billion the Government quoted for phase 2a, to which the Bill relates, is now apparently £3.6 billion to £4 billion. Will the Government indicate how much has been spent so far on HS2, including the value of contracts that have been signed but for which the work has not been completed?
In the light of the view of the chairman of HS2 that the benefits of HS2 are substantially undervalued, can the Government say what the current figures are for the benefits arising from HS2 and whether they include the potential wider economic impact of changes in land use and values as a result of HS2 and the transformative effect that it can have, both on the locations directly benefiting from the improved transport links and locations on other rail routes where capacity would be released for new or additional services?
Could the Government also say for how many years into the future are the economic benefits, including wider economic benefits, accruing from HS2 currently calculated and taken into account in assessing the overall benefit and value to the nation of the project? Are those overall benefits taken into account only for a specific fixed period—and if so, what is that period—or are they calculated and assessed as delivering effectively permanent wider economic benefits resulting in a higher overall value figure, since presumably, for example, the favourable impact HS2 already appears to be having on regeneration in Birmingham is very much of long-term value and permanent benefit to the city?
We now have the HS2 chairman’s recent report, or stocktake, on the current status of the project. It has been quite extensively redacted. In the Commons on 5 September, the Secretary of State said:
“I am unhappy about having any of that report redacted. I have read the rest of it. It is not hugely exciting. I pushed back on that with the Department, and apparently it is just that the lawyers are saying that it is commercially confidential stuff that I cannot force to be released”.—[Official Report, Commons, 5/9/19; col. 354.]
Could the Government say who determines whether something in a report is commercially confidential and who determines that commercial confidentiality outweighs the public interest in knowing about the information that is being withheld? Could they also say what would be the consequences, and for whom, of the Secretary of State releasing information that the lawyers had deemed commercially confidential? What contracts, if any and with whom, would be broken or breached by releasing such information as is in the HS2 chairman’s report? Who are the signatories to those contracts?
Phase 2a is the first step to delivering the whole of phase 2, which extends HS2 north from Birmingham. It is intended that the opening of phase 2a will result in further west coast main line services transferring on to the HS2 route, freeing up capacity on the existing west coast main line between Lichfield and Crewe. With the completion of phase 2a, the journey time from Crewe to London would be cut from 90 minutes today to under an hour by 2027, while HS2 journeys north of Birmingham would be up to 13 minutes faster than they will be following the construction of phase 1 of HS2.
HS2 has the support of the chief executive of the South Cheshire Chamber of Commerce and Industry, who has already made clear its beneficial impacts for Crewe. It has the support of the Mayors of Greater Manchester and the Liverpool City Region, local authority leaders in Leeds and Newcastle among others, and Transport for the North. It is also important for the delivery of northern powerhouse rail, which requires HS2 infrastructure to provide 50% of the new lines it needs for key parts of its services in and around Leeds and Manchester.
HS2 says that it is one of the most scrutinised organisations in the country, with oversight from the Department for Transport, the Treasury, the Cabinet Office and the Infrastructure and Projects Authority. It is clear from the sudden announcement a few days ago of delay and significant increases in costs that that extensive oversight has proved less than adequate, as something major has emerged for the first time about the HS2 project which could and should have come to light much earlier.
My noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe has indicated the issues that we will be pursuing: accountability and transparency, connectivity and the quality of links between HS2 and other relevant parts of the existing network, and compensation for tenants. I do not intend to repeat them in any detail.
It was a Labour Government who were the driving force behind HS2 and it was my noble friend Lord Adonis who, as Secretary of State for Transport, got it off the ground. This Government appear to have failed to exercise proper control over the progress of the project in all its aspects and thus failed to deliver proper accountability to Parliament. Now they look as though they could be getting cold feet and are looking to the recently appointed review panel to bail them out. What we do not know is whether, for the Government and the Prime Minister, bailing out means providing a justification to proceed, a justification to emasculate, a justification to abandon or simply a case for kicking the whole matter of the future of HS2 into the long grass during the run-up to a general election.
We continue to support the HS2 project because of the extensive and wide-ranging economic and other benefits it will deliver for the nation as a whole, in addition to addressing major capacity problems on the west coast main line, which would only get worse if HS2 is abandoned. We thus support this Bill giving the statutory go-ahead to enable phase 2a to proceed. The question is whether the Government still fully support their own Bill and the project, after more than nine years of actively supporting and progressing with the construction of HS2. Or, incredibly, will today be the last we will see of this Bill or any further Bills providing for the completion of the construction and development of HS2? I hope the Government can clearly and emphatically indicate now that they intend to proceed with this project.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this wide-ranging debate. I am heartened by the amount of support that this project still has across the Chamber. I recognise that I will never be able to make my noble friend Lord Framlingham happy on this one. I will work on the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and might get there in the end—we are going to keep trying, because it is a very important project.
The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, made some particularly important points about these large critical infrastructure projects and the difficulties this country faces in the way that we are set up and do our budgeting, scheduling and timetabling. Certainly, over the longer term some changes will probably happen in those areas. It is the same in rail as in roads, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Birt, who spoke about roads being vital. As Roads Minister I completely agree with him. The Government are committing vast sums of money to improvements in both roads and rail, which are absolutely essential. The next RIS2 will have £25.3 billion to spend. On rail, we are spending £48 billion in the next control period, which is significantly more than we have spent on our railways for a very long time.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, that this has pretty much always been about capacity—it just happens to be called High Speed 2. If I could have one wish in my life, it would be to change the name of this project. Calling it High Speed 2 has caused so many problems. It is a high-speed railway, I completely get that, but it is about capacity. Although it might be possible to slow down the railway, as the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, suggested, that would cut capacity. However, that is one of things that the Oakervee review will look at.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, stated that this project was transformative and mentioned many other times when Members both in the other place and in this House, from the Government and beyond, talked about its transformative nature. It is very difficult to disagree, but “transformative” can mean many different things. We must be absolutely clear—this is what Oakervee will do—that the benefits and costs are appropriate for this project. That is the reason for the review.
Lord Rosser
Can I take it then, in the light of that comment, that the Government are not prepared to rule out this project being cancelled?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
The Prime Minister has been very clear that nothing has been taken off the table. Imagine if the numbers came out as £100 billion to build it with benefits of only £50 billion. The noble Lord might have a slight problem with saying yes to a project with numbers like that. We know that things are under review, but we have also seen the report from Allan Cook—
Lord Rosser
I would agree, if we were faced with figures such as those which appeared to completely change the situation, but I imagine that if we reached that stage there would be an immediate inquiry into how the original figures were ever produced.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
That may well be the case, but we are now talking about hypotheticals, so I suggest that we wait until the review has finished and look at its conclusions in the context of the report from Allan Cook. The Government will make a decision at that time.
I turn to the comment of the noble Lord, Lord Birt, about why we do not have a long-term railway strategy. That is exactly what we are doing at the moment with the Williams rail review, which is looking at the status of the rail network and the service operators to see whether and how we can improve the system for the future.
I turn to some of the more specific points raised by noble Lords. There was a bit of discussion around investment in the north and how important it is; that was brought up by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. It is of course absolutely critical, as the Government recognise. Northern Powerhouse Rail could be transformative for the north, but probably not in isolation. It needs to be part of a larger project, which is why the Government are supporting Transport for the North to develop the options for Northern Powerhouse Rail. We committed £60 million at the spending review in 2015 and £37 million in 2018, which is on top of the £300 million we have committed to make sure that HS2 infrastructure accommodates a future Northern Powerhouse Rail and Midlands services. Therefore it is part of a bigger project, and other developments are certainly being included.
On the Oakervee review and accountability, I have already mentioned that costs, timescales and benefits will all be tied up in the review. The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, spoke about accountability and HS2. I refer him to a comment made by my colleague the Transport Secretary, who was very clear that he wanted us to be as transparent as possible. That includes on costs and schedule, which is why we published the Cook report. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, raised that as well. Therefore, there will be more transparency and accountability. We are not minded to introduce quarterly reporting on HS2 at the moment, as it already provides reports to Parliament, as required by the framework document, and we believe that that level is proportionate and sufficient. Of course, noble Lords may request debates on HS2 at any time.
The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, claimed that it was a bit left hand/right hand, given my opening remarks and the fact that we are having a review. However, I do not see it like that. The process for HS2 is positive, and the review we are having is a sensible reconsideration of the facts. A sensible reconsideration should never be confused for a lack of support.
A number of noble Lords mentioned whether work should continue during the Oakervee review. Certainly, the Prime Minister was very clear that the fact that we are having a review should not unnecessarily delay the progress of HS2. That would be wrong, and it would mean that costs would rise. That is why limited enabling works are being undertaken by HS2, and why your Lordships are being asked to consider phase—
Lord Framlingham
Will the Minister at least acknowledge that the felling of trees and the damaging of ancient woodland when the matter is still under discussion would be a serious thing to do?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
I will come on to the issue of ancient woodland in due course and will look into the amount of work going on. I will certainly write to my noble friend if I can get some more information in that regard.
Baroness Young of Old Scone
Perhaps I can help the Minister with that. I would be delighted to send her the list of woodland that is about to be demolished over the next six weeks.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
I suspect that I may already have that list, but I would be delighted to receive it again.
My noble friend Lord Framlingham made what I think noble Lords will agree was an expected contribution, mentioning costs and value for money; indeed, that is what the Oakervee review will consider. He spoke about whistleblowers, as of course did the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer. We are clear that any whistleblowers are covered in the UK by the whistleblowing legislation, and absolutely nothing should stop them coming forward. The Oakervee review will of course look at all available evidence when assessing the scheme.
Baroness Kramer
Would the Minister be willing to meet on one occasion to take up that issue of whistleblowers?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
I would be delighted to meet the noble Baroness when diaries allow.
My noble friend Lord Framlingham mentioned fraud. I would like to be clear that neither the Serious Fraud Office nor the police has contacted HS2 regarding any investigation, nor made any request for information in that regard.
The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, asked whether HS2 was competent. The Oakervee review will of course look at how we have arrived at the place we have, and at whether HS2 as it stands is able to deliver the project. We would not want to prejudge that outcome, but we have been working closely with the new chairman to ensure that HS2 has the right skills at this important stage to take the project forward.
The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned salaries, expressing surprise at the number of people who are paid quite high salaries within HS2. I do not know that I agree with her on this one. These are very technical positions, which need quite a lot of skill and experience, and I have not yet been able to see any benchmarks which would mean that they are not reasonable salaries to pay to these highly skilled technicians and engineers.
The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, raised the important issue of connectivity. I said in my opening remarks that HS2 will be able to connect the major cities of the UK, but also described how the hub-and-spoke system then goes out to more than 100 cities and towns, which will be able to benefit. It is probably slightly early days now to think about those towns, because we need to get closer to the date of completion and services. However, I agree with him that whoever is in government at that time—I very much hope that it will be the Conservatives—will work with local authorities to make sure that we have an integrated transport system so that the buses connect with the trains, and all those things happen that we all would like to see.
The issue of Old Oak Common was raised a couple of times. We published a response to the Economic Affairs Committee report in July 2019, which mentioned stopping at Old Oak Common. There are few benefits, because stopping there means that you cannot transfer on to other transport systems, but the Oakervee review will of course look at that issue.
Lord Greaves
On the basic point about connectivity, will the Minister confirm that, when 2b is built, the trains will indeed run through to Preston, Carlisle and Glasgow?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
I am unable to confirm that just at this moment, purely because I do not know, not because that decision has gone one way or the other. My apologies.
Oakervee is looking at the costs and benefits and, as the noble Lord mentioned, the costs have increased—the envelope was originally £55.7 billion, and Allan Cook now estimates that that is between £72 billion and £78 billion.
The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, asked about similar projects in other nations. It is difficult to compare us to someone else. We have very different countryside, and various stakeholders have very different needs. That point was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Snape. If we were to keep absolutely everybody happy on the environmental side of things, we would never build anything ever again. Clearly, that is not a feasible option, and therefore we must have a balance. While Oakervee will look at this, given our landscape and our need to mitigate against justified environmental concerns that have been raised, the cost of these things becomes quite high. I mentioned at the outset that there is a significant amount of tunnelling and cutting; some of that is down to the landscape that the line is going through, but also environmental concerns there. In later debates I will give examples of where we have literally moved the route to go around a tree. Those are the sorts of things that, with respect, may not necessarily happen in other countries. On the flip side, knowing France fairly well as I do, much of the country does not look like Staffordshire, so there are differences.
Lord Teverson
I thank the noble Baroness for going through those details, but they sound like a list of excuses, if you like. I understand all of that, but the rest of Europe is not blasé about these issues. As we know, the French public can be equally awkward. While I hear the noble Baroness, I find it difficult to understand the differences in culture.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
I would be happy to return to this issue outside the Chamber where perhaps we could have a better and more detailed conversation. I was also going to say that we should meet when the review has been published so that we can talk about the more detailed costs and benefits assessment. That conversation is probably too lengthy to have in the Chamber today.
I turn now to a few of the environmental matters which have been raised, because of course they are very important. I think that it was the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, who referred to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, saying that he admired her “hippy way” of bringing things up. I thought, “No, that is not the case at all, because these issues are important”. We had a good conversation when we met, and I hope that both noble Baronesses, Lady Jones and Lady Young, along with other noble Lords will accept an invitation to a briefing by the HS2 environment team. Perhaps we can then get to the root of the issues of concern because this is a huge area. I believe that HS2 has a great deal of information on it and I hope that the team will be able to put at least some of the fears of noble Lords at rest, although I am probably resigned to the fact that the noble Baroness will not change her view.
I want to refer to the point raised by the noble Earl, Lord Glasgow. He asked whether having a railway line causes an area to become not beautiful any more. Having visited the area that phase 2a of HS2 will go through, I agree with him that it is lovely and a great part of the country which already has the west coast main line and a motorway running through it. However, it is still beautiful. I think that there are many positives. On the habitat side, again we can raise those issues with the environment director and talk about them further.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
I just want to clarify that I did not say that the noble Baroness was a hippy; rather, I said that she was pithy. In other words, she put her points of view across very succinctly.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
Goodness, okay. I offer my sincere apologies to the noble Baroness and perhaps Hansard will go back and scrap all of that.
I shall carry on about the environmental statements, which are of course very important. I can assure the noble Baroness that they are of a high quality. However, I shall turn now to ancient woodlands because I sense that this is an issue that we may return to a number of times. I agree that ancient woodlands are very important, but there is some context here. We have some 52,000 ancient woodland sites in the UK, and of those 52,000, some 62 will be affected by HS2. It is the case that we can do things to mitigate the impact on ancient woodland. I was quite surprised to learn that not only do we have a planting regime in place, which we will learn from and improve on—and we can quiz the HS2 environment director on it—but we also propose to move the actual soil to a new place.
Baroness Young of Old Scone
The evidence for the preservation of ancient woodlands simply does not exist; it is a myth, and I do not think that we should be misleading the House in this way. While I am on my feet, I should say that I have met endlessly with the HS2 environment team. Although there may be a large number of fragments of ancient woodland so that this looks like a comparatively small number, the reality is that most of those fragments have been very bisected and diminished by development, and we are continuing on that merry way to the point where shortly we will have little ancient woodland worthy of the name.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
I thank the noble Baroness for her intervention. I suspect that we are not going to wholly agree on this matter, but if I can do anything at all to bring us closer together, I shall be pleased to do so. I believe that earlier the noble Baroness mentioned Whitmore Wood, which I have also had the pleasure of seeing. The Select Committee in the other place did consider whether the project should tunnel under the woodland, but it decided that that did not represent value for money. An assurance was given to reduce the impact on the ancient woodland by 0.5 of a hectare. However, the Select Committee of your Lordships’ House may look at this issue again.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, can the noble Baroness answer the question put to her on precisely when the review will be published?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
I cannot do that with great precision. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, mentioned that the original length of the review was six weeks. We should take that period in the context of a couple of months or a month. It is not six weeks on the dot, from day one to the end, although it may well be. The point is that the panel has had to be set up and appointed and the terms of reference were published on 21 August. Given that, I will stick to the autumn of 2019. As noble Lords will be aware, it is a bit chilly outside now, so autumn is coming. However, I probably cannot go much further than that. As I say, the review will be published shortly or in due course. No doubt noble Lords will soon ask me about this again in Oral Questions. However, it is under way and it is a short review.
I want to cover briefly the issue of tenant compensation, which I realise is important to the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. There will certainly be an opportunity to discuss it further before we reach the next stage of the process. Due to the route of the proposed scheme, phase 2a affects mostly rural residents, many of whom are tenants of their properties or land. Most types of tenants who will be impacted by the scheme are already provided for under existing compensation law, but where they are not, the Government are able to use their flexible non-statutory arrangements to provide support. That is probably not sufficient detail for the noble Lord, and I agree that we will take the issue further forward.
I want to comment briefly on a comment made by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, about British Steel. I understand the concerns of the noble Baroness, but none the less the Crown Commercial Service steel procurement policy requires bidders to outline their steel supply plans and will award all steel contracts through open competition.
Lord Tunnicliffe
Perhaps we may have a straightforward answer to the request that there should be a moratorium on felling in ancient woodland sites until the report is available.
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
I am not able to provide that certainty at this moment, but I will undertake to establish exactly what enabling works or felling will take place, whether that is of ancient woodland or otherwise, within the period that we anticipate the review will take to be carried out. I will write to the noble Lord and place a copy of the letter in the Library of the House.
This is the start of the proceedings on this Bill. I look forward to many further discussions both within the Chamber and without the Chamber. For now, I beg to move.
High Speed Rail (West Midlands– Crewe) Bill
Monday 9th September 2019
(5 years, 2 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Consideration of Bill Amendments as at 15 July 2019 - (15 Jul 2019)
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
That if a bill in the same terms as those in which the High Speed Rail (West Midlands–Crewe) Bill stood when it was brought to this House in this session is brought to this House from the House of Commons in the next session—
(a) the proceedings on the bill in the next session shall be pro forma in regard to every stage through which the bill has passed in this session;
(b) any petition deposited against the bill in this session shall be taken to be deposited against the bill in the next session; and
(c) the Standing Orders of the House applicable to the bill, so far as complied with or dispensed with in this session, shall be deemed to have been complied with or (as the case may be) dispensed with in the next session.
Northern Ireland (Ministerial Appointment Functions) (No. 2) Regulations 2019
(5 years, 2 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Duncan of Springbank
That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 11 July be approved.
Relevant document: 57th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and Northern Ireland Office (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)
My Lords, this Government are committed to the Belfast agreement. As I have said on many occasions, restoring a power-sharing Executive remains our key priority in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland needs the fully functioning political institutions of the Belfast agreement and its successors. That being said, in the absence of devolved government, the UK Government continue to have a responsibility to ensure good governance in Northern Ireland and that public confidence is maintained.
In November last year, legislation was brought forward, which among other measures addressed the need for urgent appointments to be made to a number of public bodies. At the time, the Secretary of State gave a commitment to make further appointments that may arise in the absence of an Executive. A statutory instrument was subsequently approved by the House in February 2019 which added six further offices to the 2018 Act. This new instrument specifies further critical offices to be added.
In preparing this instrument, my officials have worked closely with the Northern Ireland Civil Service to identify those appointments that will arise between now and the end of the year. This instrument would add to the list in Section 5 of the Act, thereby enabling the Secretary of State—as the relevant UK Minister—to exercise Northern Ireland Ministers’ appointment functions in relation to the following offices: the board of the Northern Ireland Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment, the board of the Consumer Council for Northern Ireland, the board of the Northern Ireland Transport Holding Company or Translink, the Drainage Council for Northern Ireland, the Agricultural Wages Board for Northern Ireland, the board of National Museums Northern Ireland, the Historic Buildings Council for Northern Ireland and the Arts Council of Northern Ireland. The instrument would also enable the Lord Chancellor to make Queen’s Counsel appointments. These are necessary and time-critical and, on that basis, I beg to move.
Lord Hain (Lab)
My Lords, all our debates, such as this one on the Northern Ireland (Ministerial Appointment Functions) (No. 2) Regulations, are in the context of the continuing absence, as the Minister acknowledged at the start, of an Assembly and the Executive. Although he has repeated his determination to get it up and running and we support him in that object, the increasing and alarming prospect is, instead, of a calamitous no-deal Brexit. In my view, that will lead inevitably to direct rule, not least to provide the necessary civil contingency and security powers which the civil servants currently administering Northern Ireland simply do not possess. That is shown by this regulation. They do not have the power, without us passing this secondary legislation, to make these appointments; they are certainly not going to have the power to deal with problems around the border of the security and civil contingency kind. Indeed, I heard the former Deputy Prime Minister David Lidington say recently on the BBC Radio 4 “Today” programme that there would have to be direct rule in advance of 31 October in order for Northern Ireland to function properly. In their own small way, these regulations are a dress rehearsal.
I believe that direct rule would be little short of disastrous for Northern Ireland and the progress that has been made since the Good Friday/Belfast agreement. One of the great achievements of that agreement was to dilute, if not completely remove, the toxicity of identity politics in Northern Ireland. It also helped cement relations between the UK and Ireland. Citizens of Northern Ireland could be Irish or British or increasingly Northern Irish as they chose and the invisible nature of the border was central to that, particularly for nationalists and, above all, for republicans. That is changing and a DUP-backed right-wing British Government exercising direct rule may not take us back to the violence of the past—I certainly hope not—but it will immeasurably damage the prospects for long-term stability and reconciliation. The notion that this can be a cosy domestic arrangement between the DUP and the Government is in itself absurd.
Effectively, you have one party out of all the parties in Northern Ireland, that does not command a majority percentage of the votes, wagging the tail of the Government in a direct rule context. If direct rule has to happen—and that is a terrible calamity in itself—then under the Good Friday agreement the Irish Government must be constantly consulted on all major policy decisions and be seen to be consulted. Perhaps the Minister can confirm whether the appointments made under these regulations will be done with full consultation with the Irish Government. The alternative with the DUP in alliance with the Government would be to undermine the Good Friday/Belfast agreement and all the progress that has been made since. After painstakingly moving to a place where both communities felt more equal, this alliance suggests that one community—or perhaps one part of one community—again has the advantage over the other.
The Good Friday agreement is an international treaty and under it the Irish Government must be consulted through the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference or BIIGC. A formal institution of the agreement, just like the others, it must meet regularly and our Government must no longer convey the reticence and nervousness they showed around their few meetings since the summer of 2018. I hope the Minister will take that point back. They must not pander to one party in Northern Ireland which does not like this institution. Instead, they must display the “rigorous impartiality” the agreement requires. I say that not just as a former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland who had to be an “honest broker” to get Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness—bitter old enemies—into power together to govern Northern Ireland jointly. The former Conservative Prime Minister Sir John Major said the British Government had to be an honest broker to take the peace process forward and bring everybody together. They no longer are.
Lord Empey (UUP)
My Lords, the appointments being added to the list include such things as the Drainage Council for Northern Ireland. If the noble Lord, Lord Hain, is seriously saying that the Irish Government need to be consulted about that, that amounts to joint authority. It is not a requirement of any of the treaties or the 1998 Act. The two Governments can consult at a council that can meet periodically. That is fair enough but we must be well aware of the three-stranded process. Its integrity is the core of the agreement.
I join the noble Lord, Lord Hain, in expressing concern about the direction of travel. I had been given the impression that talks were going at white-hot pace during the summer. but that is not the case. If my information is correct, the last all-party meeting was on 5 July, which was before we left this place for the summer. I stand to be corrected, and if the Minister does so I will be more than happy to withdraw that point, but that is my understanding. There have been one or two relatively casual meetings of working parties on programmes for government and so on, but certainly in the last two weeks of August there was one interaction in one week and one in the other.
It is true that there have been some bilateral talks between the DUP and Sinn Féin but I repeat that there is no proper process, although I stand to be corrected on that also by the Minister. The two meetings on 5 July and 9 September are sufficient evidence that there is a lack of urgency, drive and ambition. Although I have no particular issues with any of these appointments—I do with some of the recent appointments but that will come up in a later debate—I say to colleagues that devolution will not be restored unless there is a proper process that is organised, timetabled and properly run. This ad hoc approach—we will meet now; we will meet again; maybe we will, maybe we will not—will not deliver. During our debates before the recess on the Executive restoration Bill, a number of us said that some of the proposals in that legislation would not assist the process of restoring the Executive, and so it has proved. We are now closing up shop until the middle of October but there are two other things that need to be borne in mind.
Unusually, the leader of Sinn Féin in Northern Ireland is to be challenged for her position in November. I do not believe that Sinn Féin has the remotest intention of doing anything until Brexit is resolved, and certainly I cannot see that happening when its leader in Northern Ireland is facing a challenge from outside. Therefore, it looks as though we will arrive at the third anniversary of Stormont being closed in January, with no Government and so on.
The noble Lord, Lord Hain, referred to the wider issues of direct rule. Personally, I do not have a preference for direct rule. We worked hard to get Stormont going again and to get devolution, and the fact that people have messed it up is another matter. However, there is one issue which I keep drawing to the House’s attention. I ask the Minister, with his right honourable friend the Secretary of State, to consider our health service, which is in dire straits.
There are 7,500 vacancies in the health service in Northern Ireland for 3% of the UK’s population. Noble Lords can do the maths. That goes for nurses and doctors and applies right across the whole card. Our system has been kept going by locums—people brought in by agencies at enormous expense. One person working on a ward at night will be from an agency on X amount of money and one will be from the regular health service staff on Y amount of money, which is far less. It is unfair and unreasonable. Naturally enough, nurses are going to these banks and agencies and are being brought in as locums. Some of them are flown over from Newcastle upon Tyne and other locations. They are perfectly good people but their flights, accommodation and food have to be paid for, and of course they come into a ward and do not know anybody. This is becoming a humanitarian crisis.
With a new Session of Parliament coming up, I have asked the Public Bill Office to prepare a Bill for me, which I hope to put into the ballot. I remind noble Lords that in the last three ballots I got positions one, one and five, and I am hoping to improve on that. The Bill would transfer health, social services and public safety powers from Stormont to here, and it would have a sunset clause whereby immediately upon the establishment of the Executive those powers would revert. We did that some years ago with social security when there was a disagreement at Stormont and those powers were returned. I appeal to the Minister: the waiting lists have become absolutely ridiculous. Professor Deirdre Heenan of Ulster University was part of a Nuffield Trust study that a few weeks ago produced sobering figures, to say the least. People are hurting and I think that lives are being lost while we fiddle around with this issue. If the best effort is a meeting of the leaders of all parties on 5 July when we are in the middle of all this, there is something radically wrong. If I have missed the boat and secret talks that I am unaware of have been going on somewhere, I will be glad to hear that, but I suspect that I am not very far wrong.
Therefore, I say to the Minister that I do not have any particular difficulty with the appointments that we are talking about, but if we can bring legislation—even though this is secondary legislation—before this House to appoint the chairman of the Drainage Council, why can we not do something about the suffering of people in the health service and the fact that that service is being allowed to go down the drain? The spending priorities set by the outgoing Executive are five or six years old and no longer match the current needs and requirements of our community. Therefore, I appeal to the Minister to speak to his right honourable colleague in the other place and to seriously consider this matter. I do not want to see direct rule a day earlier than the noble Lord, Lord Hain, does—I have the same reservations—but this is a humanitarian issue; it is a matter of life and death. This Parliament has a responsibility to people for their health and safety but that is not being exercised.
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)
My Lords, I have listened with great care and interest to the speeches of the noble Lords, Lord Hain and Lord Empey. If either noble Lord has any magical formula to restore Stormont, I will certainly be very glad to hear it. However, there seems to be no magical formula because Sinn Féin, with the collaboration of this House, has been handed the keys of Stormont.
Let us make no mistake: same-sex marriage and abortion, as debated and legislated for recently, were two of the key demands of Sinn Féin. This House agreed to them, and if Stormont were not returned by 21 October, the legislation would be enacted. This House and the Government were warned that, in so doing, they were keeping the doors of Stormont closed because Sinn Féin has no reason to allow them to open. If Stormont returns, these issues can be debated. I know that on abortion there is a genuine desire across the political divide to see the changes in the legislation that came before the other House and this House. Rather than blame everyone else, this House has to accept part of the blame because it handed to Sinn Féin the reason for not returning to Stormont. It is therefore not good enough for people to do a pilot Act, wash their hands and suggest that the parties in Northern Ireland are responsible for the present hiatus.
The noble Lord, Lord Hain, mentioned and warned about the DUP being in cahoots with this Government, influencing and collaborating with them. I remind the noble Lord that the leader of his party collaborated with Sinn Féin—the IRA Army Council—when they were in the midst of terrorist activity, against honourable Members of this House and others in our friend and family circles who were murdered and injured. To suggest that there is somehow a great danger in the Government and the Democratic Unionist Party working together and not see the danger—what the people of Northern Ireland witnessed in their darkest days—of the then Government collaborating with Sinn Féin was certainly very hard for any democrat to take.
It certainly does not go well for some noble Lords in this House to accept what the noble Lord, Lord Hain, is saying.
Lord Hain
I am very grateful to the noble Lord, with whom I worked very closely in the past as Secretary of State, as he will acknowledge. I understand the specific point he has just made. I was simply making the point that the British Government have to be an honest broker to do this job properly. I would make the same point if it were the UUP or the SDLP—if it had any representation any more—in an alliance with the Government. You cannot be an honest broker if your majority depends on one particular party. That is the point I was making—not an anti-DUP point but one about an honest broker.
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown
I thank the noble Lord for his remarks. However, I cannot see how this House—never mind the Government—was an honest broker when it handed two of Sinn Féin’s major demands to it on a plate to ensure that the doors of Stormont would remain closed until after the deadline in October. These two major social issues were the responsibility of the elected representatives of the people of Northern Ireland. This was accepted by all, even the courts.
I certainly want to see the return of devolved government in Northern Ireland. However, I ask the Minister to confirm that the appointments to the various bodies being discussed are internal matters for the people of Northern Ireland and the Government of the United Kingdom and that the internal affairs of Northern Ireland are therefore not the responsibility of the Irish Republic. I have no doubt whatever that there should be the closest co-operation between Her Majesty’s Government and the Government of the Irish Republic—I welcome it—but they should not interfere in the internal matters of the people of Northern Ireland.
Lord Dubs (Lab)
I would like to say a little bit about this debate. First, I very much agree with what my noble friend Lord Hain said. I do not need to repeat it.
I have enormous sympathy with the campaigning for the health service of the noble Lord, Lord Empey. It is a really crucial issue. I give him full credit for having raised it on numerous occasions. I am not sure that the matter is not too urgent for a Private Member’s Bill in the next Session—that is the only thing I would say. It is such an important point and a sign of the political vacuum in Northern Ireland.
I turn to the noble Lord, Lord McCrea. We will have a chance to talk a bit about abortion in a later debate this evening. He says that something has been handed to Sinn Féin on a plate, but it took years before Sinn Féin came around to supporting abortion. It is a fairly recent thing. I think it did it only because it realised that public opinion in the Republic was in favour of it. I certainly never saw abortion as an issue that the Sinn Féin people from Northern Ireland were keen on. I used to talk to them about it when they came here for their many lobbying activities. I do not think it is quite as the noble Lord said, but I agree that its policy then changed and it is now in favour of abortion.
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown
Does the noble Lord not realise that it was one of the demands that Sinn Féin made—one of the red lines that it drew to attention—before Stormont could be returned?
Lord Dubs
I am not sure how many red lines there were. Sinn Féin must be asked somewhere else to speak for itself, I suppose. It is not for me to try to quote what I thought was wrong with its policy. All I am saying is that my sincere understanding was that it was not keen on abortion over a period of years. I used to say to the Sinn Féin people who came over, “What about your party being as progressive as it claims to be and taking a stand on abortion?”, and they did not. It has been only a fairly recent thing, since the Irish referendum got momentum. I am not sure how relevant that is to the debate here now.
We of course accept the need for these appointments to take place and regret the necessity of it being done in this way. I ask a question of the Minister which has been referred to recently. My memory of when I was a junior Minister there many years ago—it was a long time ago—was that the Government in Dublin could put forward their suggested people to be considered for public appointments in Northern Ireland. It did not mean that we took notice of it or appointed the people, but it was simply one other contribution to the mix of possible candidates we looked at for particular jobs. I wonder whether that is still the case.
Are we simply rubber-stamping reappointments of people already in posts, or are there some new appointments listed in these regulations? If so, is there an appraisal process—in other words, an equal opportunities system for interviewing and appointing people—if we are not reappointing people who would normally expect to have a second term in office?
Some of these bodies are quite important. I had involvement with several of them in my time as a Minister. I was particularly interested in the Historic Buildings Council. If I may digress slightly from the main point here, when I got to Northern Ireland, there was a mentality of, “Get rid of these old buildings. Let’s just bulldoze them away and put up new ones”. This was a long time ago and I hope that I am totally out of date. I think that that the people who argued like that—some of them did—did a total disservice to Northern Ireland. It was a job to resist the pressure to get rid of listed buildings because people said, “We’ve got to do that. They’re standing in the way of progress”. For people who support historic buildings, the skill is to say, “We’d better be clever and find a proper use for historic buildings so that they can be maintained in their historic beauty and yet are economically viable in their new situation”.
I regard some of these appointments as pretty important. I am very concerned that the people in these positions—or who will fill them, if they are new appointments—will have a real commitment to historic buildings and the other areas we are debating.
Who gets these key jobs is very important. It is so regrettable that this is where we are. It is such a massive regret that we have not been able to move forward. If I have a chance in the next debate, I would like to repeat some of the things we have said in the past about how we might move forward. In this House, saying something twice is tenable over six months but probably not in one evening. I will leave it at that.
Baroness Harris of Richmond (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing this statutory instrument. As we have seen, with the lack of any operational Executive in Northern Ireland for the last two years, it is now necessary for Ministers here to make those key appointments to offices in Stormont and to make strategic legislative interventions to ensure good governance once again in Northern Ireland; this should have been exercised by the Executive themselves and we hope it will be again as soon as possible.
At this point, I make note of the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, about the health service in Northern Ireland. It is indeed quite shocking that so many vacancies exist; we really must do something to help the situation. We have been here before. Back in February we approved the appointment functions of several key offices: the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland; the Commissioner for Children and Young People for Northern Ireland; member of the Commission for Victims and Survivors for Northern Ireland; member, chair or vice-chair of the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, et cetera. This statutory instrument adds nine other offices to those in which the appointment functions of the Northern Ireland Minister can now be exercised by the relevant UK Minister.
My noble friend Lord Bruce of Bennachie, who is unable to be present in your Lordships’ House this evening, and who spoke on these matters at the time, said that,
“effectively we are going on and on in this limbo of democratic nihilism … having to institute ad hoc measures as and when necessary to fill the gap in the absence of real political initiatives”.
He asked what practical steps the Government would take to ensure that we would not get to the end of August without having reached a position where functioning decision-making by the elected representatives of the people of Northern Ireland could return. He added that,
“a Secretary of State in a UK Government who are propped up by a hard-line unionist party in Northern Ireland is likely to find the perception of her office somewhat compromised … is it not time to find some independent authority that might bring parties together and start to identify what it would take to break the deadlock and get things back to normal?”
He asked,
“what were the criteria that made these urgent, and what other appointments are coming down the track that may require us to be back here in the very near future?”
Now we know. He continued by asking,
“what assurances can we have that there is any reasonable momentum to try to ensure that we get the political process back?”
The Minister, in response, told the House that,
“the appointments have been identified by the Northern Ireland Civil Service. The principal criterion for that identification was obviously timing”.
He said that on Friday 15 February, all the parties had gathered together in Northern Ireland for the first time in more than a year, in,
“an attempt to move things forward in a fashion which would ultimately lead to the creation of a sustainable Executive”.—[Official Report, 18/2/19; cols. 2041-45.]
Yet here we are again. The Government’s Brexit chaos is constantly distracting from the real issues affecting citizens across the UK, and the formation of a Northern Ireland Executive is crucial to stability in the region. We are deeply concerned about the progress being made towards restoration and urge the Minister to do all he can to stress the urgency of this to the Prime Minister, who obviously has other things on his mind at the moment.
We will discuss these issues in more detail in the debate to come later today, but can the Minister give any update on the Government’s efforts to make progress on the restoration of an Executive in Northern Ireland? The last time an instrument under the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Act 2018 was deployed, my noble friend Lord Bruce asked the Government to think outside the box for solutions to the issues at hand. I echo this plea. Have there been any efforts to find an independent authority to try and bring the relevant parties together?
Finally, does the Minister foresee any further appointments being made in the near future? Is he confident that Parliament can prorogue without any outstanding matters to be addressed? We very reluctantly agree to this statutory instrument going forward.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, I want to speak only briefly as I hope to contribute to the later, main debate. I just want to take up the last point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond. Even had we had the so-called Conference Recess, we would have been sitting throughout this week, up to and including Thursday, which would have given us time for a whole day on Northern Ireland. Would that be too much when we have the ultimate responsibility in this Parliament during the continued and deeply regrettable absence of an Executive and Assembly in Northern Ireland?
Lord Morrow (DUP)
My Lords, I will be brief but I want to say one or two things. I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Hain, extol the virtues of the Assembly. I am not going to say anything negative about it except, simply, that to date it has failed to provide a working Executive. I will say no more than that. Regarding what the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has said, I find myself generally in agreement. Perhaps he has oversimplified things but, nevertheless, I know he is sincere in what he says in relation to the health service. Our health service is in dire straits. He does not exaggerate when he says that. Furthermore, our waiting lists are growing by the day. He also said that there could even be deaths as a result of the state of our health service.
We are a devolution party. We want devolution tomorrow. We have declared no red lines over its return. Any issues announced by any party can be discussed around the Stormont table and Assembly at any time. We have not said, “This can’t be discussed” or “That can’t be discussed”. We have said no such thing. Bring the Assembly back tomorrow and we will be there. I suspect that we would be the first through the doors, because we strongly believe in devolution as the best way forward for Northern Ireland. I ask the House to take cognisance of that.
We have heard from the Lib Dems the idea that the Conservative Party is in cahoots with a right-wing unionist party. Yet not that long ago those same Lib Dems were in cahoots with the Conservative Party—and we saw the disaster that that was. Some may point and throw stones, but those who live in glass houses should not throw stones, because they will discover that those stones will crash through their own glass house one day. My colleagues and I are a bit tired of taking lectures from a failed identity. Please restrain and refrain, and work with those of us who want devolution restored.
Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)
My Lords, this is a short debate and an important one. The Opposition will support the Government on the regulations, for obvious reasons, because appointments in Northern Ireland could not be made unless we did. But the Minister must be aware from the tone of the contributions made in the past hour that this debate is really about the restoration of the institutions in Northern Ireland.
In a sense this regulation is a precursor to direct rule, and we are drifting drearily and inexorably towards that. That would be calamitous. I was a direct rule Minister in Northern Ireland for five years. I enjoyed being there, and I enjoyed doing the job—but it was quite improper that I was doing it. If we have direct rule it will mean an English, Welsh or Scottish Minister, or a combination of such Ministers, taking decisions in Belfast for people who live in Northern Ireland. That is wrong, in every democratic sense.
The Minister’s new boss is apparently on resignation watch, according to the newspapers this morning, on the basis that he is—quite rightly—troubled by the fact that if there is a no-deal Brexit there will be, as my noble friend Lord Hain has said, no proper Government in Northern Ireland to deal with the enormous problems that would result from the catastrophe of no deal. We cannot leave the government of Northern Ireland to civil servants in those circumstances.
When the Minister and his Secretary of State go back to Belfast, can he not make it plain to the political parties in Northern Ireland that we are now in a situation totally different from the situation two months ago, and that urgency and intensity are necessary to bring about the restoration of the institutions, because of Brexit? Brexit dominates everything, and during the past three years the Brexit negotiations in Brussels and London have been skewered because there have not been parallel negotiations regarding Northern Ireland. It is my view that, had there really been a resolution of the problems in Northern Ireland, we could have dealt with the backstop in a very different way. If that had happened—if there had been an agreement in the Assembly and the Executive on what to do about Brexit—that would have helped towards the resolution of the whole Brexit crisis. But it was not to be.
There are, of course, those on the nationalist republican side in Northern Ireland who think that continuing chaos on Brexit and no deal would make a drift towards a united Ireland more likely. There are also those on the other side of the political community there who feel that, somehow or other, they become more British if we leave the European Union. I am not saying that those ideas are right or wrong; I am simply saying that they make the resolution of the problems there much more difficult.
As my noble friends Lord Hain and Lord Empey, and the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, have said, the talks have no shape: there is no structure. Every successful talks process in Northern Ireland has had a proper structure. But now there is none. Over the past six months we have begged the Government to find an independent arbiter or chair. We have begged them to ensure that all political parties sit round the same table to talk about the future of Northern Ireland. And of course, we have begged the Prime Ministers both of Ireland and of the United Kingdom to involve themselves much more intensely in the negotiations, as has happened historically over the last 30 years.
We are in a pretty awful mess—not just the mess of Brexit but the mess of what is how happening in Northern Ireland. I hope that the Minister, for whom I have the highest regard, and the new Secretary of State will be able to go back within days to Belfast and ensure, in their ministerial meetings, that there is a proper structure to the talks, to avoid the calamity that is on its way.
Lord Duncan of Springbank
My Lords, I have stood here many times and my words are often repeated back to me—and with each passing few months the words become less and less tenable. I said earlier that we need to be very clear that good governance must be at the heart of our ambition for Northern Ireland. I do not think it would be unfair to say that all the parties need to recognise that we are at the very stage when the opportunities for delay are falling away.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, asked when the parties had last met as a gathering of five. The answer is: in the first week of August. I take no pride in saying that. I do not think that that is much better than the date that the noble Lord suggested. Since then, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has been conducting bilateral discussions in an attempt to restore that Executive. One would think, I suppose, that if we cannot restore it now, when such vital issues are at stake, if, against that backdrop, those parties cannot recognise that now more than ever their voices would have been valuable—might, indeed have been instrumental—we do begin to wonder whether those parties will ever find a way through to restore an Executive. And if those parties cannot restore that Executive, which is so needed, for the very issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, other means must be found.
Let me take up some of the points raised by noble Lords today. We are talking about appointments that are necessary, and the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, asked how they are pulled together. There is indeed a mix of appointments—both reappointments and new appointments. I can now tell your Lordships how they break down. A competition is due to be carried out for the chair of the Northern Ireland Transport Holding Company. Open competitions have been carried out to identify suitable candidates for appointment to the Northern Ireland Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment, to the General Consumer Council for Northern Ireland, to the Agricultural Wages Board for Northern Ireland, the Board of National Museums and the Historic Buildings Council. Competitions are due to be carried out to identify candidates for appointment to the Northern Ireland Drainage Council and the Arts Council of Northern Ireland.
Every effort is made to ensure that the people concerned are qualified individuals. I am aware that there may be some controversies about some of the earlier appointments; we may come on to that in our later discussions. I am aware that some remarks were made about the Drainage Council. In truth that is a vital body, because it looks after waterways, sea wall defences and so on. I cannot think of anything more important, as we consider climate change.
The noble Lord, Lord Hain, asked again about the role of the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference. I believe that if we do indeed find ourselves in the darker waters of direct rule, that will be a vital component. As for the involvement of the Irish Government with these appointments at present, the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord McCrea, are correct: these are domestic matters and would not involve that external consultation. However, I recognise the point they are making, which is about finding the greatest consensus in the communities of Northern Ireland; I believe that is exactly where they are coming from.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, has put forward a Bill to examine the NHS in Northern Ireland. He is right to raise that subject. Professor Deirdre Heenan has written a devasting report which is, for any noble Lord who takes the time to read it, very troubling, for obvious reasons. This is an area of fully devolved competence that is in a bad state of play. We have made every effort that we can within the constraints that we face, but at the same time we are limited in what we can do on this issue. I commend the noble Lord as he brings forward that Bill, and I hope that we are in a position to address it as a matter of some urgency.
Government of Wales Act 2006 (Amendment) Order 2019
Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist
That the draft Order laid before the House on 11 July be approved.
Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)
My Lords, this draft order amends the consent requirements in Schedule 7B to the Government of Wales Act 2006 in respect of electoral registration officers. It also makes clear how this amendment interacts with the provisions in the Welsh Ministers (Transfer of Functions) Order 2018 so that functions over EROs are transferred to Welsh Ministers.
There was a drafting error on an early version of the Order Paper today. For clarity, I confirm that this SI appeared before the JCSI on 4 September and no points were raised.
The UK, Welsh and Scottish Governments have committed to reforming the annual canvass process. These reforms will improve the ability of EROs to identify those properties where household composition has changed, allowing them to target resources towards those properties. Electoral registration officers are appointed under Section 8 of the Representation of the People Act 1983, and under the Welsh devolution settlement are classed as reserved authorities. This is because, while they exercise functions in relation to Assembly and local government elections in Wales that are devolved matters, they mainly exercise functions in relation to reserved polls.
Paragraphs 8 and 10 of Schedule 7B to the Government of Wales Act 2006 place restrictions on the Assembly’s ability to impose, modify or remove functions of reserved authorities without the consent of the UK Government. This means that while the National Assembly for Wales has legislative competence for Assembly and local government elections, it cannot modify the devolved functions of EROs without a Minister of the Crown’s consent. I assure noble Lords that this was not the Government’s intention. A small number of reserved authorities are carved out of the consent requirements because, like EROs, they exercise a mix of devolved and reserved functions. These include the Electoral Commission and the Food Standards Agency.
Article 2 of this order addresses that issue by adding EROs to the lists so that in future the Assembly can modify their devolved functions without needing the UK Government’s agreement to do so. Article 3 makes clear the effect of carving out EROs from the consent requirements on the Welsh Ministers (Transfer of Functions) Order 2018.
The 2018 order sought to transfer the remaining Minister of the Crown functions in devolved areas to Welsh Ministers. This includes all the functions within the devolved competence of the Assembly contained in the main pieces of electoral legislation. However, the effect of paragraph 12 of Schedule 7B to the Government of Wales Act 2006 is that the reference to the devolved competence of the Assembly in the 2018 order does not include an Assembly provision that would require the consent of a Minister of the Crown. Because of the consent requirements relating to EROs that I have already outlined, it therefore follows that Minister of the Crown functions that relate to the devolved functions of EROs did not transfer to Welsh Ministers through the 2018 order as intended.
This order therefore provides that powers to modify the devolved functions of EROs will be treated as transferring to Welsh Ministers under the 2018 order on the date that this order comes into force. This will enable Welsh Ministers to make the necessary regulations for the canvass reforms in respect of devolved polls. I welcome the positive engagement that has taken place with the Welsh Government in developing this order, which has also been laid before the National Assembly for approval. I beg to move.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, I welcome this measure. Before going into any detail, I welcome the noble Baroness to her Front-Bench post; we wish her well. We know that she has a tremendous interest in Wales, and I am sure she will stand up for Wales when there are battles that need to be fought. She has a challenging role in following the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, who undertook his responsibilities in an exemplary manner and gained the respect of the whole House. I wish her as much success as he had in fighting Wales’s corner, which can sometimes be an uphill struggle.
I listened carefully to the Minister’s introduction. It explained why the reaction in Wales I was getting was that these powers had already been identified as coming to us, or indeed had already come. The difficulties that have previously been experienced have been met by this order. As the presiding officer, the Welsh Government and the Assembly welcome the order, I of course support it this evening. However, the way the difficulties were addressed by the 2018 provisions underlines the complexity of the devolution model in Wales, with some things being devolved and others reserved. That mixture can lead to the sort of complications we are putting right tonight. It underlines the need for a clear-cut devolution model whereby things are either wholly with Wales or not, with no grey area that can lead to difficulties.
The 2006 Act, which the noble Lord, Lord Hain, was mainly responsible for getting through, was a very significant step forward in its day. I have previously congratulated the noble Lord on getting it through Cabinet, the House of Commons and this House. However, I think he would be the first to admit that requiring an order every time the National Assembly was going to legislate in every function—an order that could be blocked by a resolution in the House of Commons or by the unelected House of Lords—was not ideal. We have moved on from that, but we seem to have a little hangover from that period in the context of what we are discussing tonight.
Finally, that whole subject has a certain resonance for me. I am present in this Chamber only because of that model. As a party, we had never taken seats in the House of Lords. We changed that at the invitation of and under pressure from the Government of the day because, as we saw it—I think rightly at that time—it was quite invidious that the unelected House of Lords could block by order a legislative requirement of the elected Government of Wales. That is why I came here. That is why we were promised at that time that we would have three people in this Chamber—a promise that was never fulfilled by either Government. That may resonate in Wales tonight.
Lord Hain (Lab)
My Lords, I very much agree with the points the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, made. I too welcome the Minister to her role. I stress that the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, leaves big shoes to fill, because he spoke on Wales with an intuitive understanding and empathy from his long political experience. Despite our party differences, he spoke with real authority and I thought he was an exceptionally good Minister in this House. I wish the noble Baroness all the best in following that model.
Baroness Humphreys (LD)
My Lords, I add my voice in welcoming the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, to her new position on the Government Front Bench. I look forward to working with her in the future on behalf of Wales.
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her comments on this statutory instrument and to the Government for timing its passage through Parliament to allow it to conform with the Electoral Commission’s timetable for completion of voter material in association with canvass reform in Wales. This instrument is the result of the Government’s consultation towards the end of 2018 that sought responses to proposals for reform of the annual canvass and removes restrictions on the Assembly, bringing Wales in line with the rest of the UK. On these Benches, we are supportive of the devolution of further powers and responsibility to Wales and welcome this move to give the Welsh Assembly Government constitutional responsibility for their EROs.
The Welsh Government are bringing forward their own regulations to apply these reforms to their local government registers. Your Lordships will be aware that legislation is in its final stages in the Assembly to ensure that, when the next local government elections take place in Wales in 2022, 16 and 17 year-olds will be permitted to vote. These regulations will ensure that 14 year-olds and 15 year-olds, who will turn 16 during the period the register is in force, will be able to register to vote as attainers.
The overall aim of the reform is to deliver a more efficient system by which EROs maintain their electoral registers with no negative effect on citizens or the accuracy and completeness of the registers. The desire to modernise the system is understandable. The present mainly paper-based system is not an efficient use of public money with its potential for EROs needing to contact households up to four times during a canvass. Experience is showing that changes over the last few years, such as rolling registration, individual electoral registration and online registration have all had an impact on how the registers are maintained.
Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)
My Lords, I must add my voice to others who welcome the Minister to her position. We note that the gangway is wide enough for even the longest swords not to reach each other, so I trust that we will pursue business pertaining to all of us and for the betterment of Wales in perfect amity. I do not want to intimidate the noble Baroness with all that has been said about her predecessor, but I must add my voice to those who expressed their admiration for all that the noble Lord contributed on this and other issues. I hope she will not take that as pressure in any way, but an expression of gratitude and a real welcome to her in her new role.
This is such a simple matter, but it arises from what the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, said about the complicated model that allows some activities within a related set to be on the reserved list and some not. In Wales we have not only a word but a way of saying it; this will make everything “tidy”, will it not? Presently, the right to oversee elections at local level and to the National Assembly is devolved to the Assembly, but all other elections are subject to the reserved list and they have no similar autonomy. This brings everything together and is logical.
I am glad that this has happened in response to the stimulus from similar exercises being undertaken by other devolved Governments; we wish that the devolved Government of Northern Ireland were fully party to these conversations, instead of things having to be dealt with in a different way for Northern Ireland. This electoral list exercise that is being undertaken in the hope that everything will be brought together by 2020 really puts the pressure on to get these things tidied up. The things that the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, referred to as needing to happen will be facilitated by this, but even more needs to happen to get some of the things that she properly alluded to.
So those powers that now come together under the authority of the devolved Government of Wales and the powers that Ministers will have in the Welsh Assembly without having to resort to Ministers and the Government here in Westminster are both welcome developments. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, says that three Plaid Cymru Members were promised, but I cannot imagine for a moment three Lord Wigleys. One really is enough. For all that, in terms of the contribution that he makes, not just to subjects related to Wales but across the entire spectrum of considerations that are before us, it is good that his party is represented and would that it were even better represented. I will just leave that with the noble Baroness.
The Explanatory Memorandum that has come to me from Cardiff, under the considerations that relate to the policy objectives to be achieved and enhanced by the measures before us, signs off with a sentence that I find intriguing and bewildering. It says, “The remaining provisions”, without stipulating what they might be,
“would need to be made as part of the UK legislative proposals which would see the necessary statutory changes sitting within two separate SIs”.
I have done lots of examination papers in my life. If we had the word “discuss” at the end of that sentence, I wonder what the noble Baroness would have to say. It is a bit of gobbledegook but at the heart of it there may be something that we need to take note of before we approve this statutory instrument. But in terms of the general provisions, there is no hesitation on our part from this side of the House and we wish the noble Baroness well with her first electoral triumph, which she is bound to have on this occasion.
Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist
I thank noble Lords for their valuable contributions to the debate this afternoon and for their kind words of welcome and encouragement. I am conscious that I do indeed have very large boots to fill following the departure of my noble friend Lord Bourne. All I can say is that I shall do my best.
I am glad that we have been able to tidy up this bit of legislation through the introduction of this SI. It is right that we learn from the experience of all the devolved Governments and I will take note of the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths of Burry Port. The order adds EROs to the lists of reserved authorities which are excepted from the consent requirements in paragraphs 8 and 10 of Schedule 7B to the Government of Wales Act 2006. In doing so, it will enable the Assembly to modify the functions of EROs in devolved areas in future without needing the agreement of the UK Government to do so. In line with this, it also alters the scope of devolved competence under the Welsh Ministers (Transfer of Functions) Order 2018 so that Minister of the Crown functions in relation to devolved ERO functions will transfer to Welsh Ministers. This will enable the Welsh Ministers to implement reforms to the annual canvass process in respect of devolved polls.
I acknowledge the concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, on data-sharing mechanisms. The new canvass model will incorporate a data step where the electoral register will first be matched against DWP and local data sources such as council tax. The Cabinet Office has consulted the Electoral Commission on the canvass reform proposals. We welcome its positive response and we will work closely with it as the canvass reforms move forward to address any such issues. As for when and where the debate will take place, I will need to get back to noble Lords on that point.
Lastly, I too would love to see more Welsh voices on these Benches but I welcome the productive work with the Welsh Government in preparing this order and I commend it to the House.
Motion agreed.
Report Pursuant to Sections 3(1), 3(6), 3(7), 3(8), 3(9) and 3(10) the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019
(5 years, 2 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Duncan of Springbank
That this House takes note of Report Pursuant to Sections 3(1), 3(6), 3(7), 3(8), 3(9) and 3(10) of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and Northern Ireland Office (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)
My Lords, on 4 September my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland laid a number of reports before Parliament in line with his obligations under the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019. These reports underscore what colleagues across this House have known for some time—that the restoration of the Executive and Assembly is vital to the people of Northern Ireland. This is our top priority as we continue to work with the Northern Ireland parties to meet that objective. Without an Executive, the people of Northern Ireland have seen the quality of their public services decline, and decisions that affect their day-to-day lives kicked into the long grass. The people of Northern Ireland deserve better.
Since his appointment in July, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has met public servants from a range of sectors who are doing an incredible job in the absence of support from their political leaders. But they cannot, of course, take the decisions that are needed on public services or the economy. If we cannot secure the restoration of an Executive in good time, we will pursue the decision-making powers that are needed at the earliest opportunity.
In addition to the reporting requirements, the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 requires the UK Parliament to introduce laws on same-sex marriage and opposite-sex civil partnerships, abortion and victims’ payments. I recognise that these are sensitive, devolved issues and this Government’s preference is that they are taken forward by a restored Executive and functioning Assembly. However, this House has spoken and the duty to legislate will come into effect if the Executive is not back up and running in the next six weeks.
With the permission of the House, I would like to speak to each report topic separately. In the other place each report is being debated separately but we are being slightly more expeditious and debating them all as a single whole. Let me just run through what they are and then I will go through each of them in turn: Executive formation; transparency of political donations; higher education and a Derry university; presumption on non-prosecution; Troubles prosecution guidance; abortion law review; historical institutional abuse; victims’ payments; human trafficking; and gambling.
I will begin at the beginning, with Executive formation. I am conscious now that essentially the same issues have been discussed in cross-party talks for over two years. There are some aspects of these talks that are close to resolution. I believe the parties could agree a programme for government, measures to increase transparency and on the sustainability of the institutions. But gaps remain between the two main parties on rights, culture and identity. Both the UK and the Irish Governments share the view that these issues are resolvable. So, the Government, working closely with the Irish Government in accordance with the three-stranded approach, will now intensify efforts to put forward compromise solutions to the parties. If that does not succeed, the Secretary of State’s next update will set out next steps to ensure adequate governance in Northern Ireland and the protection of the Belfast Good Friday Agreement.
As regards transparency of political donations, we are proud that we were able to secure the agreement of Northern Ireland parties and bring forward legislation to open up all donations from July 2017 to full public scrutiny. I am aware that many would like to see that transparency go further and apply retrospectively to 2014. This remains a sensitive issue. When the donations regime was extended to the Northern Ireland parties in 2006, they were placed under the same obligation to report donations to the Electoral Commission as elsewhere in the UK. The difference before 2017 was that the commission could not publish the details. It was feared that to do so would risk intimidation of donors. The Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act provides that greater transparency could be introduced from 2014 at some point in the future.
I would like to have been able to report more progress on this issue. However, as I mentioned to the House on the previous occasion, it should be instructive to see how donating patterns change in the run-up to an election. The Electoral Commission has yet to publish details for the period immediately in advance of the local and European elections. In addition, I would caution that opening up the historic record is not a straightforward matter. It is not a case simply of passing legislation. The reality is that this issue remains a sensitive one, particularly at this time, and we must be careful to take the time to properly consider the implications of retrospectively applying transparency. Donors must not face intimidation. As the Electoral Commission made clear to the parties in 2013, the point at which donations from 2014 will be made public is subject to an assessment of the security situation. We will look at this issue carefully, but that must be in the context of wider discussion and consultation between the Northern Ireland parties and the Government. However, our focus, rightly, must be on getting Stormont up and running.
On higher education and a Derry university, students from Northern Ireland benefit from two outstanding universities: Queen’s and Ulster University. We also recognise that many of those who come from Ulster choose to study in other parts of the UK or indeed internationally. While the Northern Ireland Department for the Economy has policy responsibility for higher education in Northern Ireland, universities are independent of government. As such, it is for a university, whether prospective or existing, to decide where to base any new campus. It should be noted that no application has been made from any organisation to establish a university in Derry/Londonderry.
The Government are aware that Ulster University has been for some time considering the development of a graduate medical school, to be located in Derry/Londonderry. This project proposal features heavily in the Derry City & Strabane District Council’s economic regeneration plans for the region. We hope that progress may be made via this route.
On the presumption of non-prosecution, the current system for dealing with the legacy of Northern Ireland’s past is not working well. This needs to change. As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said recently, it is common ground across all Benches that it is simply not right that former soldiers should face unfair and repeated investigations, with no new evidence, many years after the events in question.
Although we want to find a better way to address these issues, to do so through the presumption of non-prosecution would pose a range of challenges and might not provide a complete solution to the issues at hand. A presumption of non-prosecution in the absence of compelling new evidence, whether in the form of a qualified statute of limitations or by some other legal mechanism, would likely need to be applied to everyone. This would essentially mean that an amnesty or statute of limitations would potentially apply to all those involved in Troubles-related incidents, including former terrorists.
Crucially, implementing these provisions would not remove the obligations under domestic criminal law to investigate serious allegations. Equally, it would also not end the UK’s need to comply with its international obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights, which requires an independent body to carry out Article 2-compliant investigations. To imply that this requirement would not continue would mislead veterans.
Therefore, the Government continue to drive forward a range of proposals on how best to address the legacy of the past. As part of this, we recently carried out a consultation on a framework of proposals flowing from the Stormont House agreement on how improvements could be made. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland will continue to work with partners on all sides to reflect on this feedback and develop an improved system that is fair, balanced and proportionate. This work continues, alongside the Ministry of Defence’s public consultation seeking views on proposed legal protection measures for Armed Forces personnel and veterans serving in operations outside the United Kingdom.
On Troubles prosecution guidance, the UK Government recognise that historic investigations are a complex area and the subject of a range of strongly held views. We have made it clear that the way investigations into the past are carried out needs to be reformed. However, the required reforms are about not how and by whom criminal justice decisions are taken, but rather how we can have a more effective and fairer system.
Noble Lords will of course also be aware that criminal investigations, including legacy cases of Troubles-related incidents, are carried out independently of government. As set out in the update report, the criminal justice system in Northern Ireland is a devolved matter, as are prosecutorial decisions and the guidance that underpins them. In Northern Ireland, as elsewhere, those prosecutorial decisions are made independent of government, just as they are in England and Wales, by the Public Prosecution Service for Northern Ireland under the auspices of the Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland.
Centrally, the Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland is not under the superintendence of the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland. This means that, under existing legislation, the Director of Public Prosecutions has a consultative relationship with the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland. The former cannot be compelled by the latter. This particular feature of the relationship between these key figures is an important component of the devolution settlement in Northern Ireland and it is not within the Government’s powers to direct the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland or Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland.
What is central in these legacy cases is not how an individual came to have a weapon but what they did with it, and it is of course for the courts and not the Government to determine innocence and guilt. The Government are committed to reforming the current system, but this needs a new, wider approach, with practical, sustainable and workable solutions. The Government remain committed to finding those solutions.
On the abortion law review, without the formation of a restored Executive we will implement the relevant sections of the recent Act. However, we recognise that a majority of MPs want to ensure that reform happens if we continue to see an absence of devolved government, hence placing the Section 9 Executive formation Act duty on government to regulate if an Executive is not restored by 21 October 2019. That duty requires the Government to implement the recommendations contained in paragraphs 85 and 86 of the 2018 report of the Committee on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women—CEDAW—specific to Northern Ireland’s legal framework for abortion, together with non-legislative measures around education and access to counselling services.
As set out in the update report, to meet this commitment we have been undertaking work to analyse and carefully consider the range of materials, both international and domestic, that have considered related reform issues and the sensitive policy questions that have to be worked through to deliver what is required. This process is ongoing, and I will be happy to update your Lordships on further progress in the second report to Parliament on this issue in the coming weeks.
On historical institutional abuse, the Government have made plain our commitment to introducing legislation in the absence of a Northern Ireland Executive by the end of the year. Much progress has been made by officials in the Northern Ireland Office working in concert with the Northern Ireland Civil Service to prepare all the necessary materials to do just that. The Executive Office is to be commended for the progress it has made in the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers. It prepared draft HIA legislation in 2018 and a consultation exercise was concluded in March 2019. It is with the benefit of this progress that the Northern Ireland political parties were able to discuss in detail the implementation proposals for the commissioner for survivors of institutional child abuse and a redress scheme. The discussions between the Northern Ireland parties on the historical institutional abuse legislation and the policy decisions required to finalise it have demonstrated that there is a genuine will to reach agreement and deliver for the people of Northern Ireland.
The resultant HIA Bill was provided to the NIO by the Executive Office on 18 July and has been the focus of work in my department to make ready everything necessary to introduce the Bill at Westminster. It is a complex Bill and those documents have required significant input from legal advisers and policy officials. The UK Government’s commitment to introduce this legislation by the end of the year in the absence of a restored Executive remains resolute. Following the policy and legal work carried out in August by officials, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State wrote to colleagues to seek to secure a legislate slot for introduction. On Friday 23 August, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland held very positive meetings with representatives from victims and survivor groups, and on 30 August he met the interim advocate, Brendan McAllister. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State will continue to engage with these key Northern Ireland stakeholders to update them on progress as we seek to deliver redress for victims and survivors of this dreadful abuse.
I move on to victims’ payments. We will introduce payments to victims not injured by their own hand. We have now committed under the Executive formation Act that if there is no Executive in place by 21 October the UK Government will bring forward regulations before the end of January to ensure that a victims’ payments scheme can come into force in Northern Ireland by the end of May next year. As set out in the update report, to meet this commitment we have been undertaking work to develop the detailed arrangements for the scheme with factual input from the Northern Ireland Civil Service. This has included consideration of other relevant schemes, detailed design work, discussion with certain key stakeholders and making plans for future engagement, and preparing detailed advice on the proposed architecture of the scheme—its purpose and principles, levels and methods of payment, eligibility and other technical considerations, the assessment process, and wider support arrangements for scheme applicants.
We are as well placed as possible to deliver against our obligations in the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019, and we propose to engage widely on the details of the scheme ahead of the date by which the regulations must be made. The views received on our proposed approach will help inform final decisions on how the scheme will be implemented.
On human trafficking, the report contains information on a number of occasions the department has considered it necessary to provide assistance and support for victims of human trafficking for whom there has been a conclusive determination that the person is a victim of human trafficking. It also outlines the reasons for provision of this support.
Clearly, it is the will of Parliament that the Secretary of State should report on this issue, but I would also wish to add a caveat about the limitations on the Secretary of State’s capacity to report comprehensively on matters of devolved competence. Consequently, I add that the report does not provide the immigration status of those victims who have been supported. The Northern Ireland Department of Justice does not hold that information and, while it might be possible for another competent authority to advise on immigration status, given the small number of victims involved—16 individuals over a three-year period—information on the immigration status of those individuals could make it possible to determine their identities. I trust that Members will agree that that would not be a welcome outcome. I acknowledge and commend the Northern Ireland Civil Service on its progress in these matters during the difficult circumstances that currently exist, and look forward to a time when these issues are properly considered by a returned Northern Ireland Executive.
Finally, I come to gambling. As many noble Lords will be aware, gambling legislation in Northern Ireland differs from that in Great Britain. This report recognises the challenges associated with the likes of online gambling and fixed-odds betting terminals, and notes that existing legislation has not kept pace with industry and technological changes. In addition, the report highlights the lack of specific services commissioned by the Health and Social Care Board to help those suffering from gambling addiction. A high-level strategic review of gambling policy, practice and law is currently being carried out by the Department for Communities. I would encourage the gambling operators to work alongside the Health and Social Care Board to ensure that all that can be done is being done.
I beg to move.
Lord Hain (Lab)
My Lords, I welcome the report on the,
“progress made towards preparing legislation implementing a pension for seriously injured victims and survivors of Troubles-related incidents”,
and I commend the officials who have been working on it. Your Lordships will recall that, in my original amendment to the legislation, I specifically and repeatedly used the words,
“severely injured through no fault of their own”.
On advice from parliamentary counsel, those words did not appear in the Bill that we passed, and I accepted that on the assurances given in this House by the Minister and in the other place that the legislation to implement the pension would be absolutely true to the spirit and intent of,
“through no fault of their own”.
When the commitment to implement a special pension for people who were severely physically or psychologically damaged through no fault of their own during the Troubles was enshrined in statute in July, it was warmly welcomed by those who had been campaigning for many years for the proper recognition and acknowledgement of the great harm done to them. But there were those in Northern Ireland who regrettably spread alarm and confusion among victims and survivors by claiming that the pension could go to those injured by their own hand because the legislation was “weak”. That was their term. They have either misunderstood or misrepresented what is being taken forward. The detailed legislation to implement the pension cannot be described as “weak”, for the very good reason that it does not yet exist in the form of the regulations due to come into effect by the end of January 2020. I am sure that the Minister will confirm that. Parliament will have the opportunity to scrutinise these regulations, including in your Lordships’ House. Therefore, I hope that the Government will take the opportunity to again give a cast-iron commitment that only those injured through no fault of their own will qualify for the pension.
There is also a report before us on the definition of a victim, which is currently set out in the 2006 Order, which was passed when I was Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. I will make two brief points about it. First, the report says:
“In the absence of consensus on this sensitive and emotive issue, the position of the UK Government is that in order to make meaningful progress, this work would be best taken forward by a newly restored Executive”.
All I can say is, “Good luck with that!”. It is precisely because it is a “sensitive and emotive issue” that there is little prospect of agreement being reached, even if the Executive were to return. I would remind the House that those campaigning for the pension dragged themselves in their wheelchairs to Stormont year after year for tea and sympathy but little else. The local political parties failed them shamefully, instead wrangling in sectarian fashion over the definition of victims, while the terrible injustice they were suffering festered on.
Secondly, the 2006 Order facilitated the setting up of the Commission for Victims and Survivors, but it also gives access to those services provided by the Victims and Survivors Service and, when it comes into operation, the mental trauma service. It is well documented that the impact of conflict can be transgenerational. Are we to say to a child— or even a grandchild—that, because of events that took place years before they were born, they will not now get access to the support services that they need because they are no longer eligible? That cannot be right. Whichever way this is taken forward, we should proceed with caution. I welcome the cool analysis that the Minister has provided. We know that his heart is in the right place on these matters and we wish him well in the progress to come.
Baroness Barker (LD)
My Lords, I am very pleased to be taking part in this debate in the absence of my noble friend Lord Bruce of Bennachie, who cannot be with us this evening. Although I did not know that I was going to be speaking in this debate until a few days ago, I am glad that I spent a large part of the summer watching the series of BBC programmes about the history of the Troubles. It is important that those of us who wish to see a brighter future for Northern Ireland never forget its past. It has been salutary to be reminded of the situation in Northern Ireland. It is the wish never to return to those days that has lain behind much of this work.
I thank the Minister for producing these reports. I took part in the passing of the legislation, and it is good to be back here now debating not whether the Government are going to implement that legislation but how they are going to implement it. That is the thrust of these detailed reports. I also commend the Minister for the openness with which he has made them available to people from all sides of the House. Like others, we on these Benches remain committed to restoring the devolved Government as soon as possible, but we understand—not least because of the points made so impressively by the noble Lord, Lord Empey—that life in Northern Ireland goes on, and that the governance of Northern Ireland is under severe strain.
I want to talk first about the issues in the “Report pursuant to sections 3(1), 3(6), 3(7), 3(8), 3(9) and 3(10)”—a deadly bureaucratic title for something very important. The report mentions the progress of the working groups. It states that the Secretary of State used these groups to inform “subsequent weeks of negotiation”. It would be very helpful if the Minister could give the House a flavour of the intensity and productiveness of those negotiations. We have been concerned to hear from our colleagues in the Alliance that,
“the process has been treading water for the past few weeks at least”.
The report also states that:
“It should prove possible with intensive engagement to resolve the strands of talks on the Programme for Government, Transparency and Sustainability relatively swiftly”,
and that,
“the UK Government, working closely with the Irish Government, will now intensify its efforts to put forward compromise solutions to the parties”.
Can the Minister give us a little more detail of this “intensive engagement” and when this intensification of efforts will begin?
I particularly thank the Government for the section of the report relating to the transparency of political donations. That amendment was moved by my noble friend Lord Bruce of Bennachie. However, I am disappointed by what the report says. Clearly, there has been no progress made on backdating transparency of political donations to January 2014, as provided for by the 2014 Act. The report places much emphasis on the “broad consensus” among Northern Ireland political parties, but it does not make changes from the July 2017 date. Well, there was no consensus. The Alliance’s position remains that returns should be published from January 2014 onwards. Political parties may want secrecy, but that does not make it right or fair to the public.
Thirdly, the point made in the report about retrospectivity is not an issue. Parties were told by the Electoral Commission to inform every large donor after January 2014 that their details would eventually be published. Donors would have known that when they made their donations. I hope that the Minister can talk more about progress on that.
Turning to the section on higher education in Northern Ireland, the question of HE sector funding is urgent. Again, we place on record our support in principle for the proposed medical school in Derry/Londonderry, but we need to know that the funding will be in place.
The report pursuant to Section 3(13) deals with the payment for victims. My noble friend Lord Bruce of Bennachie has echoed many of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and I will not repeat them at this late hour.
On the report on Section 3(14) about the key recommendations of the Inquiry into Historical Institutional Abuse, we echo the concerns expressed on Thursday by the Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland, Sir Declan Morgan, that the recommendations have still not been implemented, in particular his comments that this,
“epitomises how the lack of an Assembly impacts negatively on … Northern Ireland’s citizens”.
Given that we are expecting Parliament to prorogue today and not return until October for a Queen’s Speech, presumably that will mean yet more delay for them. These people have been waiting far too long for redress.
I want to deal with two issues in particular, and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, might be in his place for one minute longer. I listened to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, in the debate earlier this afternoon, in which I think he questioned the motivation of those of us who were responsible for ensuring that this legislation extends the rights of access to abortion care and to same-sex marriage to people in Northern Ireland. The noble Lord, Lord Hayward, is not due to speak and therefore I reluctantly make the point—
Baroness Barker
Is he speaking in the gap? Okay. However, I can say with confidence that in all the work I saw him do, and all the work that he would have seen me do on abortion, there was never any question at all that we were doing so in a partisan way. We were doing it so that people who are citizens of Northern Ireland could enjoy the same human rights and access to services as people in the rest of the United Kingdom. That was all.
I want to ask the Minister one question. Can he confirm that the decriminalisation of abortion in Northern Ireland will take place on 21 October if no Assembly is formed, regardless of a general election or Prorogation? If that is so, what will happen to people who are currently facing prosecution under the existing law? I remind this House of a point that we made during the passage of the legislation. Decriminalisation does not mean that there will be no regulation of abortion in Northern Ireland. Since we passed the legislation, there have been wildly misleading statements made. Abortion in Northern Ireland, when the law changes, will be by medical professionals who will be under the same ethical constraints as their colleagues are in the rest of the United Kingdom. It is wrong to say that there will be a period in which there will be no regulation whatever.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, I have heard no voice raised this evening urging the restoration of direct rule, yet paradoxically when it comes to the question of abortion this House and another place did not hesitate to set aside devolution to impose laws in Northern Ireland on a highly sensitive and contested devolved question. I have never disguised my opposition to laws which in Great Britain have led to 9 million abortions—one every three minutes—and permit abortion up to birth in the case of disability. Let me make it clear as well that in the 30 articles in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, there is no human right to abortion.
This is a highly contested question and the right to life is for many a paramount right. This may not be a view that all hold, but it is a respectable minority view and it is held by millions. Indeed, over the weekend in Northern Ireland thousands of people protested peacefully against the decision made here in July through the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act—the Act we are discussing now—which imposes changes in the law on Northern Ireland. In an exemplary, dignified and united way, right across the community citizens who believe that both lives in a pregnancy matter made their voices heard. For so many living in Northern Ireland, what happened in this House and the other place made a mockery of democracy. Radical amendments, overturning devolved legislation endorsed by the democratically elected Northern Ireland Assembly as recently as 2016, were simply tagged on to an emergency Bill which had nothing to do with abortion.
This was legislation rushed through in a pell-mell way, which disconcertingly resulted in this House not amending but completely rewriting the amendment inserted in another place. The democratically elected House then had hardly any debating time for the actual text of what is now Section 9. It spent a paltry 17 minutes debating the final text of Section 9, which removes all legal protections from the unborn child in Northern Ireland until they are capable of being born alive, a point in time that is contested and in relation to which the only explicit protection applies from 28 weeks’ gestation. That is four weeks later than in Great Britain and 16 weeks later than in the Republic of Ireland. There was, of course, no consultation with the people of Northern Ireland; there was not even a specific vote on the reworded Clause 9, which was rejected by all Northern Ireland MPs who take their seats at Westminster when the matter, albeit with entirely different words, was subjected to a specific vote on 9 July.
The report produced on abortion law reform required under Section 3(10) highlights the deeply flawed nature of the new legislation on abortion coming into force on 22 October unless the Northern Ireland Executive is restored. With just over six weeks to go, the Northern Ireland Office, which incidentally I sympathise with as this legislative process was not its idea, is openly stating that,
“much further work is required before we are in a place to deliver on this duty if it comes into effect”.
Considering the enormously serious nature of the issue at stake here and regardless of your views, this is deeply troubling. These surely must be seen as matters of life and death. The report goes on to say that there is no,
“clear path forward in terms of the regulations and non-legislative measures”.
By any measure, this is patently absurd. It is bad enough for the Westminster Parliament to remove a law that the democratically elected representatives of Northern Ireland voted not to change in any way as recently as 2016, on the spurious grounds that there was a legal human rights imperative for doing so, which, as the expert legal opinion of Professor Mark Hill makes plain, is without any foundation.
It is, however, utterly extraordinary and deeply wrong to remove that law five months before requiring a new law to be put in its place. That is plainly irresponsible. This in and of itself is incredible when you reflect on it. Abortion would be legalised for any reason including gender, disability and convenience up to the point of viability on 22 October, but there is to be no notification requirement on the part of medical authorities or abortion providers to say that an abortion has taken place. There will be no requirement for abortions to take place in particular places and no explicit legal protection for the rights of conscience for medical professionals who oppose abortion for ethical reasons. What would not be tolerated elsewhere in the United Kingdom is to be imposed in Northern Ireland.
The only way that this can be prevented is for the Executive and the Assembly to be restored. The decision on how and whether to provide abortion should be for the people of Northern Ireland to decide through a proper legislative process, rather than with minimal consideration in an Act that was stampeded through Parliament without any consultation with individuals who actually live in Northern Ireland. For what it is worth, I am going to Northern Ireland later this week and will be urging MLAs to do all they can to restore the Executive. Northern Ireland deserves to be governed again by those whom the people there actually elect. To prevent this direct rule, and for so many other reasons which are highlighted and have been mentioned in our earlier debates, we must see the restoration of the Assembly and the Executive. I plead with the parties in Northern Ireland to do all in their power to bring that about.
Lord Morrow (DUP)
My Lords, the Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Northern Ireland) Act 2015, which I steered through the Northern Ireland Assembly, gives confirmed victims of slavery a statutory 45-day “reflection and recovery” period during the process of determining their status as a victim. There is then a discretionary power to grant victims of trafficking further support if they have been given a positive conclusive grounds decision, or have not yet had a conclusive grounds decision and the 45-day period has run out.
I welcome the report before the House today, which outlines the extent to which this discretionary power has been used. The report does not outline who the numbers are referring to. Will the Minister confirm whether or not the numbers provided in the report apply only to victims with a positive conclusive grounds decision? On what basis is a decision made to grant additional support beyond the conclusive grounds decision to a confirmed victim? On what basis is it decided that another victim should receive no further support once they are a confirmed victim of modern slavery? Does the Department of Justice have guidance on the basis on which to determine whether support under Section 18(9) should be extended? Will the Minister furnish interested parties with copies of any such guidance?
Will the Minister also set out the minimum and maximum duration of discretionary support after the conclusive grounds decision has been made? Since my Bill passed, a number of victims’ care providers have argued that support should be provided for at least 12 months after a positive conclusive grounds decision. In this context, noble Lords will be well aware that the noble Lord, Lord McColl, has introduced his Bill to provide comprehensive support to help a victim recover from their exploitation for up to 12 months once they have been confirmed. I spoke in favour of his Bill at its Second Reading on 8 September 2017. It is sobering that two years have passed and victims are still living without statutory support for their longer-term recovery. At the beginning of the year, the Government began offering victims 45 days’ support in England and Wales, after the conclusive grounds decision. This was a step in the right direction but was rightly challenged in the courts because, for many victims, 45 days is plainly insufficient. The challenge resulted in a settlement in which the Government agreed that support should be provided on the basis of the individual’s needs rather than a fixed, predetermined time.
In this context, the most sensible way forward would seem to be to provide all confirmed victims of modern slavery with the option of 12 months’ support, in order to provide baseline security, but for there to be a needs assessment at 11 months to see whether that should be extended. That is certainly what I would seek by way of updating the legislation if the Northern Ireland Assembly was sitting and I was still a Member.
I was disappointed that the amendment to the Executive formation Bill put forward by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Lord, Lord McColl—on the progress of the implementation of independent guardians for trafficked children—was not in the final Act, despite assurances from the Minister that the Government would accept the amendment. The independent guardian service in Northern Ireland provides children who have been trafficked, and separated migrant children, with a trained advocate to support, represent and accompany them as they go through the recovery process. The service has been a real success and our model has been studied by other jurisdictions with a view to emulating it. In England and Wales, the section in the Modern Slavery Act on independent child trafficking advocates has still not been commenced and support is only available in one-third of local authorities. Will the Minister give an update on the number of children being helped in Northern Ireland through the independent guardian service and how this service has been received by other professionals working with trafficked and separated migrant children? If not, could he please write to me and place a copy of the letter in the Library?
Finally, I cannot sit down without making some mention of the abortion report before the House today. I expressed my grave concerns about what was then Clause 9 in Committee on 15 July and about the revised clause—now in the Act—on Report on 17 July. I still find it completely staggering that Section 9 sets out that if the Executive do not reform by 21 October, and I certainly hope they do, there should be any period of time when there is no legislation in place to regulate abortions up to the point at which a child is capable of being born alive, let alone a period of five months. During this time, and quite unlike in the rest of Great Britain, abortion providers will be free to set up clinics that cannot be licensed or assessed. Moreover, abortion will be available right up to the point of viability for any reason, including if the baby is a girl. I find no reassurance in the Government’s report that there is any credible plan to protect women and children during the limbo period. This is completely and utterly unacceptable. Not surprisingly, the people of Northern Ireland are outraged by this and last Friday approximately 20,000 people protested at Stormont about the change that is being proposed without their say or input.
The suggestion that there is a binding human rights imperative in international law that necessitates removing the current law on 21 October, before anything can be put in its place, is simply incorrect. The CEDAW convention does not mention abortion; only the international court has standing to read in such a right and it has not done so. Indeed, the notion that this is driven by some concern for human rights completely falls apart when one realises that repealing the current legislation dealing with abortion up until just before a baby is capable of being born alive, without putting anything in its place for up to five months, will actually make us less compliant with an aspect of international law which does mention abortion. At the moment we are compliant with Article 39 of the Istanbul convention, which prohibits coercive abortion, because our law does not provide scope for coercive abortion. However, if the Assembly is not restored on 21 October, on 22 October nothing will be put in its place and the door to coercive abortions in Northern Ireland will be flung wide open.
In this context I make a plea to Sinn Féin to return to its place in the power-sharing Administration, so we can make sensible and properly accountable laws for the people of Northern Ireland.
Lord Caine (Con) (Maiden Speech)
My Lords, it is a great honour and privilege to finally make my maiden speech as a Conservative and Unionist Member of this great House. I say “finally” because, despite taking my seat on 20 October 2016, I have until now been bound by a Cabinet Office rule that serving government advisers can sit and vote but not speak in your Lordships’ House. Following the events of 24 July, this is no longer the case for me, so it is with a sense of great relief and anticipation that I am now able to take my place as a fully functioning Member of the House.
I would at the outset like to give thanks to a number of people: noble Lords on all sides of the House for their understanding during my three years of enforced silence; the doorkeepers and other staff of the House, who carry out their responsibilities with such diligence, kindness and good cheer whatever the hour; my two supporters at my introduction in 2016, my noble friend Lord Black of Brentwood, who was my first head of section in the Conservative Research Department back in 1987, and my noble friend Lord Empey who, I am sure all noble Lords will agree, embodies all that is best in Ulster unionism; and the former Prime Minister David Cameron for giving me the opportunity to serve in this House. Leaving aside the referendum, if I may, I strongly believe that the Governments—plural—which he led achieved a great deal, particularly in restoring our economy, job creation and education reform. I was proud to have played a role in one of the seminal moments of his premiership when I helped to draft his statement on the events of Bloody Sunday.
While I join a number of former members of the Conservative Research Department and special advisers in this House, my route here—to use a phrase that will be familiar to friends from Northern Ireland—was hardly a traditional one. I was not born into the Conservative Party. In fact, I was born in a staunchly working-class area of Leeds called Harehills, where my late father was a builder and my mother a hairdresser. Yet their values were very much Conservative values, particularly those closely associated with the late Baroness Thatcher of hard work, enterprise and aspiration. It was that which led them to found a business and which allowed me, the product of a local state school in Leeds, to become the first member of our family to attend university.
That also enabled my parents to move to a relatively more prosperous part of Leeds, Temple Newsam, which forms the geographical part of my title. Temple Newsam is the ward on Leeds City Council where I was brought up and where I return most weekends. Leeds is also the part of the world where I currently pursue most of my interests outside this House, as a supporter of the Leeds Rhinos rugby league club and its charitable foundation that does such sterling work in the community to turn around young lives through sport, and as a patron of the Danny Jones Defibrillator Fund, which raises money to provide sports clubs with potentially life-saving defibrillators.
For most of my time in politics and public service, I have been deeply involved in the affairs of Northern Ireland. In the 1990s I was a special adviser to Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, and then to the late Lord Mayhew of Twysden, both men of the utmost integrity whose contributions in Northern Ireland should never be underestimated. From May 2010 until July this year I advised two Prime Ministers and four successive Secretaries of State on Northern Ireland affairs. It was a period that encompassed the statement to which I have referred on Bloody Sunday, the G8 summit, the Stormont House and fresh start agreements, the EU referendum and the confidence and supply agreement, in which I confess to having played a small part. I say with respect to some noble Lords that hands-off it certainly was not. Regrettably, it also saw us go from the longest unbroken run of devolved government in Northern Ireland since the 1960s to over two and a half deeply frustrating years of no government at all. Like noble Lords across the House, I profoundly hope that devolved government is restored and fully functioning as soon as possible.
My involvement in Northern Ireland affairs has given me a deep and enduring affection for the place and all its people. It has strengthened my unshakeable belief in the union of our United Kingdom. I am an unashamed and unapologetic unionist who believes that the best future for Northern Ireland is, and always will be, within a stronger United Kingdom. I am, though, a unionist who deeply values and respects nationalism and who wants the closest possible relationship with our friends and neighbours in the Republic of Ireland, while always respecting the constitutional proprieties. Indeed, part of the genius of the 1998 Belfast agreement is that it enables all traditions to be accommodated, through the constitutional framework it sets out, the institutions it establishes and the rights it guarantees for everyone. I remain a steadfast supporter of that agreement, in which my noble friends Lord Trimble, who was here earlier, Lord Empey and Lord Maginnis played such key roles.
Of course, I am acutely aware of the pressures created as a result of the 2016 referendum. One reason that I, as an instinctive Brexiteer, in the end voted remain was over my concern about the impact that leaving might have on the delicate and precious equilibrium established by the 1998 agreement. However, since the referendum I have been in no doubt that, for the sake of our democracy and for trust in politics, the result must be delivered and the UK must leave the EU. I remain convinced, however, that it must be done in an orderly and managed way that protects the 1998 agreement but preserves political stability on the island of Ireland and, of course, preserves the unity of our United Kingdom. I will always be a unionist before I am a Eurosceptic.
Turning briefly to the debate, I welcome the publication of the reports mentioned in the Motions of my noble friend Lord Duncan of Springbank, with whom I had the privilege of working in the Northern Ireland Office until recently. Indeed, I am pleased to see that some of my sentences have actually survived the change of administration. I wish to single out one of the reports for very quick comment: that relating to legacy cases and the prosecution of veterans. Many of my most difficult and moving meetings in Northern Ireland over many years have been with victims and survivors of the Troubles. It is clear that more needs to be done for them and I commend the work of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and others towards a victims’ payment. At the same time, as many people have said, we must ensure that there is not a disproportionate focus on former members of the security forces, to whom we own an enormous debt. This is a complex and difficult area. I have always believed that everybody should be accountable to the law and I have a number of concerns about some of the remedies that have been suggested in this respect.
One possible way forward, which I have discussed with the Attorney-General for Northern Ireland at length, might involve modifications to Section 3 of the Criminal Law Act (Northern Ireland) 1967 around what constitutes reasonable self-defence. The purpose would be to give clearer legal meaning to the moral distinction between somebody who commits a split-second error of law while carrying out their duty and somebody who sets out with the clear and deliberate intention to commit murder. Now is not the appropriate time to pursue this in detail, but I hope to return to this matter on a future occasion and I hope that my noble friend the Minister will undertake to look at this option seriously. For now, however, conscious of the clock, I am grateful for the opportunity to open my account, so to speak, in your Lordships’ House and I look forward to playing a much fuller role from now on.
Lord Empey (UUP)
My Lords, if we needed any evidence of the importance of the arrival of the noble Lord, Lord Caine, in a position in which he can address your Lordships and turn his mind, in a public way, to our important issues, the speech that has just been delivered confirms what I believe many of us have long believed—his ability and knowledge of a wide range of subjects. Someone coming to these Benches with his many years of experience in Northern Ireland is a wonderful asset that we will warmly welcome across all these Benches and on all sides. The role of adviser is very important and he has not only given us commitment but done so with discretion, with dignity and without turning the focus on to himself rather than the Ministers he has been privileged to serve.
Just to illustrate my point, there is a small quotation in today’s Sun—if it is here it must be true—attributed to Mr Dominic Cummings of this parish, where he says, allegedly:
“I don’t care if Northern Ireland falls into the f***ing sea”.
The melodic prose of that comment lends some credibility to the possibility that he might have said something like it, but no such comments were ever or will ever be made by the noble Lord, Lord Caine, who has conducted his business and kept relations with all sides in our troubled Province. Having a strongly committed unionist on these Benches is most welcome. I wish him every success in your Lordships’ House and have little doubt that he will distinguish himself now that he is able and free to talk.
Turning to the business on the Order Paper, there is one small matter on which I would like clarification from the Minister, which was also mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Caine: the definition of a victim. Neither that report nor the one relating to the Armed Forces covenant appears to be mentioned on the Order Paper. I am not quite clear why.
We have just touched on the Executive formation. I said that if my dates were inaccurate I would happily correct them; yes, it was probably 5 August instead of 5 July, but it is the same difference, because the talks have not had the momentum required.
On donations, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Barker. I have come to the conclusion that there is not a consensus in Northern Ireland on the dates for these donations. I believe that the 2014 date should be applied and made that comment when the legislation was going through in the summer.
As a former Higher Education Minister in Northern Ireland I am very conscious of the potential, having visited the Magee campus of Ulster University in Londonderry and with the city deals coming forward for that local authority area. Given the shortages in our health service, there is also great potential, particularly concerning the proposed graduate medical school, to combine a number of policies and not leave things purely to the universities. I accept that universities are independent, but only in so far as it is the public who in large measure pay for them. There is a huge social, economic and political issue here and we should pursue it rigorously.
On the issue of the abortion law review, I am conscious that on Friday there were huge demonstrations in Belfast which had very little time to get organised and build momentum. I know that a lot of people are very concerned at the haphazard way in which this has been done. There are no regulations in place on 22 October, no matter what anybody says. While people will argue, “Well, the medical profession will do this and that”, why should we have to rely on them? We are a legislature. If we have something to say, we should say it and do it, instead of this back-to-front process that has been adopted, which, I have to say, has annoyed and deeply upset many very sincere people. I hope we will return to that and that we will be able to get in place something in law that is just, proper and democratically endorsed by the people it affects most. That has been sadly lacking.
I remain strongly opposed to the proposals on legacy that came out of Stormont House. The proposal for a historical investigations unit will be a torture chamber, particularly for former members of the security services, for at least a decade and will enable republicans to set up a whole industry of people who will take legal action, make claims and try to rewrite history in the process. It is a profoundly bad idea and I sincerely hope that those who invented and support it will withdraw their support.
On historical institutional abuse, I strongly support the fact that people are trying hard to get this done, but, as we have pointed out in this House many times before, people have been moving on in age and it is becoming an increasing challenge. I hope that every effort will be made to move as fast as possible.
The report on the definition of a victim, which is not mentioned on the Order Paper today, does not even cover two sides of paper. On such an important issue, this is almost an insult to Parliament. It is so critical and so controversial, and to say that handing the thing back over to the Executive is the way forward is absolute nonsense—it is only a way of avoiding it. That is what I fear is happening and I deeply regret it.
In conclusion I will address the victims’ pensions, which were mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Hain. Can the Minister give an absolutely categorical assurance to the House tonight that under no circumstances will a person who was injured by their own hand and their own actions be eligible for any payment from the state as a result of this activity? That has got the reappointed victims commissioner into serious trouble and has caused victims great distress over what has happened to them. I sincerely hope that we get a clear, unambiguous confirmation tonight that this will not happen. Whenever you see in a report mentions of working parties and looking at other examples around the world, it begins to make people nervous. I sincerely hope that the Minister can give us an assurance that does lack not any clarity whatever.
Lord Dubs (Lab)
I have noticed over the years that a debate about any topic in Northern Ireland becomes a debate about everything in Northern Ireland. That is just how things are. I very much welcome the maiden speech by the noble Lord, Lord Caine. I realise that he had been muted politically for a long time, so I welcome him to the world of political freedom. It is therefore gratifying that we have, for a debate about everything in Northern Ireland, the DUP in some reasonable force, and other good representatives from Northern Ireland who are independent of political party. I would like other political parties in Northern Ireland also to be represented here, as that would add strength to our debates—I refer to the Alliance and the SDLP in particular.
I spent last weekend at the British-Irish Association annual get-together in Cambridge. Few politicians were present, but we had Simon Coveney, Michael Gove and the Secretary of State speak to us, and it was a pretty good occasion. Noble Lords may be wondering about the badge I am wearing; it is the badge of the campaign for Ireland to have a place on the Security Council, which is looking for British support. I mention that in passing. Obviously, the Minister could not possibly comment on that—but he will probably not comment on many other things.
Lord Dubs
That goes with the job description.
With the lack of an Executive, we are in a dangerous situation. There is a vacuum, and vacuums get filled in an unfortunate manner. I can only add my plea that we have to make progress. I repeat the plea for an independent facilitator of talks, which is surely long overdue. It would be much better to have somebody who could put the parties together. It is difficult for the Government, simply because they are in coalition with one of the main parties in Northern Ireland. I would have thought that we could make progress.
May I anticipate something the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, will say? I will thank him for it before he says it. That is, we should make use of the existing Members of the Legislative Assembly and use the committee structure. Surely the civil servants, who are having to make difficult decisions, need some political backing. Although it would not be official political backing, it would surely be helpful to them if we have some of the Assembly committees up and running and giving at least their views on the whole range of issues that we are discussing today. It cannot be difficult to achieve that. Members of the Legislative Assembly can do some constituency casework, but they are not able to function as proper politicians. That is awful, and the danger is that some of them will drift away with frustration, and then we will lose the core of what we want to re-establish when direct rule is there. It is not just a matter of saying that it would be a nice thing to do; it is urgent that we do it, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for all that he will say about that later today.
I will mention some specific issues. I always make a plea about child refugees. People in Northern Ireland would welcome child refugees—I was encouraged by the response I got when I mentioned this at the British-Irish Association get-together in Cambridge between Friday and Sunday—and they are frustrated that there is no way in which the willingness of local people in Northern Ireland to accommodate child refugees can be brought into effect. I know that the Minister is probably fed up with my mentioning it so often, but we have to do something about it. I hope that if we talk enough about it, word will get through to the civil servants and others to move forward.
I welcome the initiative of the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, on trafficking. Trafficking is of course partly linked to refugees, although not entirely, but it is a serious issue and we cannot do enough to tackle it and support its victims.
I also make a plea that if we had a functioning Executive, maybe we could also get more impetus behind integrated education, which I believe is still an important feature of education in Northern Ireland, but too small a feature. I would like to see more of it happen.
I am chair of a committee of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, and we have been studying abortion, taking evidence in Liverpool, London, Belfast and Dublin. It is very detailed evidence from a range of opinions, on all sides of the argument. We would have published our report some time ago but the DUP member of the committee—a very effective member—said that he did not agree with its thrust, so we said that we would hold it and give the DUP time to give us a statement of its position. I hope we can then incorporate that into the report, which will go public at the next plenary. That will come too late for this debate, but it is right that we should give the DUP a full chance to state its views, even though the majority of committee members took a different view.
Noble Lords from the DUP have said that, under changes being made to abortion practice in Northern Ireland, there is no time limit. I am not aware of that and I would certainly be very unhappy if that was the case. We have a time limit in Britain and there is a time limit in Dublin. Surely, we cannot proceed without some form of sensible limit for any practice in Northern Ireland.
Finally, I welcome what my noble friend Lord Hain has been doing about the victims of crime and the stand he has taken on that very important issue. In my last few moments I shall repeat my plea to the Minister: can we make progress on bringing back something of the political system in Northern Ireland? If we had an independent facilitator, we could bring the parties together. Senator George Mitchell did that brilliantly. Without his skill and adroit handling of the political parties, we would not have got to where we are. It is still one of the great success stories of United Kingdom politics over the past half century or longer. We need to make progress, so let us use the elected Members of the Assembly in order that they can play a part and have their views put forward and listened to in order to influence other debates.
Lord Bew (CB)
My Lords, I will focus my remarks solely on the issues of legacy, which have already been touched on, as well as on the issue of the proper treatment of the victims of the Troubles. These matters have been central to our discussion, and I want to focus on one of the key phrases of the noble Lord, Lord Hain. He said that people had become victims “through no fault of their own”. In my opinion, that phrase contains the possible key to unlocking the great mess of meanings around this subject. It is an enormously complicated one and the Government have struggled with it for reasons that everyone understands. However, the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, in this debate, along with all his other interventions in this House on the subject, was very valuable indeed.
I turn to the very important maiden speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Caine. I can do nothing but pay tribute to the noble Lord for the role that he has played in the Northern Ireland Office. I can say quite simply that the noble Lord has made a major contribution to the stability of Northern Ireland—I am absolutely sure of that. His sense of balance, his affection for the place and his respect for both traditions has had the effect of ensuring that the advice he has given, some of it on extremely poisonous issues, has always been driven by a concern for the stability of and the maintenance of peace in Northern Ireland. Those of us who live there owe him a great debt.
The other thing I am pleased about is that the noble Lord’s speech indicated that he is going to be bringing new ideas to this House. He talked about his discussions with the Attorney-General on the Criminal Law Act (Northern Ireland) 1967. He uttered another key phrase which should be heard alongside that of the noble Lord, Lord Hain: “reasonable self-defence”. Again, that is a phrase which could unlock this poisonous debate.
When the noble Lord, Lord Caine, referred to his concerns about the disproportionate nature of our inquiry culture, you have to understand what disproportionate means in this context. During the long years of the Troubles, I think that the police killed some 54 people. Many of those cases were uncontroversial and in some instances they were accidents, such as the killing of other policemen who were carrying heavy weapons. However, some other incidents were highly controversial. Against that minority of cases, more than 300 policemen were murdered during the Troubles, which means that they were six times more likely to be killed than to kill. However, the exact opposite is the case with the paramilitary groups. Republicans, who carried out the lion’s share of the killings, were several times more likely—something in the regions of four times more likely although it depends on which faction of republicans you want to talk about—to kill than be killed.
Let us think about the number of inquiries we have had in recent years and what the focus has been on. Some of them have been entirely justified. The noble Lord, Lord Caine, referred proudly to his work helping David Cameron draw up his address to the Bloody Sunday tribunal, which was a very important moment. I was one of the historical advisers to that tribunal and I am perfectly proud of that. However, we have an inquiry culture that bears no relation to the main facts of violence during the conflict.
Therefore, it is important that in the report that has been placed before the House today—I think it is on page 18—the Secretary of State undertakes to carry on a dialogue with stakeholders and Members of Parliament. I certainly hope that one of the stakeholders will be the Attorney-General of Northern Ireland, who has always put forward very interesting and thought-provoking ideas in this area.
When the House of Lords debated this subject some months ago, we were more or less of one mind that we must find a way of drawing a line under this. It might be a painful way and it cannot be one-sided but I see little sense that the Northern Ireland Office really registered that. I also believe that would be the view if there was a free vote in the House of Commons. Debates show that there is a hunger to find a way to draw a line under this.
It is also very important that the UK Parliament’s view is heard because ultimately the Government of the United Kingdom pay for the maintenance of this culture, not just financially but in living with the emotional effects of constantly replaying the Troubles in Northern Ireland. There is no question that 20 years after their formal end, the Troubles live on in the discourse of the community in a way that the Second World War did not live on in the discourse of London, for example—although, of course, people did talk about it from time to time.
To conclude on a slightly happier note, the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, mentioned the representation of the communities and the political traditions of Northern Ireland in this House and how that could always be broadened. As chair of the House of Lords Appointments Committee, I have been thinking about this for some time, along with my committee and I have got the message.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, I am sure that we all delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Bew, has got the message and we hope to see the results of this in due course.
I add my brief congratulations to my noble friend Lord Caine for a wise, perceptive and thoughtful speech, indicative, I am sure, of many that he will give in your Lordships’ House—not just on Northern Ireland—in the years to come. My only regret is that he had three years of, I think, unnecessary purdah. He has been—the noble Lord, Lord Empey, referred to this—a wonderful demonstration of a prudent adviser. I sometimes wish that I could whip up the money to buy two tickets on Richard Branson’s spaceship and give one to Mr Cummings and one to Mr Seamus Milne.
We are talking about a very serious subject tonight and I am delighted and grateful that my noble friend Lord Duncan has introduced these reports. Every word of them underlines the shameful situation of not having an operating Assembly and Executive. The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, is obviously a mind reader because I wish to stress this yet again. As I indicated in an earlier debate, I am ashamed of the fact that we are going into Prorogation later today. I think it is shameful. However, even out of the most shameful situations, good can be rescued, and I say to my noble friend Lord Duncan that he will not be required to come to Parliament. I ask him, please, with his colleagues, to devote all his time over the next four or five weeks to trying to bring people in Northern Ireland together; to set up a scheme whereby the Assembly can be summoned; to create a system in which committees can meet; and, above all, with the Secretary of State to choose a moderator and mediator who can bring the parties together.
However honest and good the intentions of the Government—in respect of my noble friend Lord Duncan they are exemplary—the fact is that it is perceived that the Government are on the side of one particular party in Northern Ireland. I do not believe that they are behaving in a partisan way but that is the perception, and perceptions are important. Therefore, it is crucial that during these coming weeks we do not waste time but get on with trying to ensure that the parties are brought together so that by the end of the year at the latest, and before the third anniversary, we have an operating Executive and an Assembly that meets.
In the preceding debate, the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, talked about the inexorable drift towards direct rule. It would be a condemnation of us all if that were the result. I was in Northern Ireland at the start of the remarkable partnership of Ian Paisley—the late Lord Bannside—and the late Martin McGuinness. That was the stuff of which political miracles are made. I well remember many conversations with the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, who is justifiably held in the highest repute in Northern Ireland. He and Denis Bradley conducted their inquiries and we discussed them, and many of us felt that we really were on the way to the consummation of a remarkable transformation.
Then, we had the sad and unfortunate events at the beginning of 2016, since when there has been no real progress at all. My noble friend Lord Duncan has had to come to the House time and again, going through the mantra, “The parties are going to come together” and “We’re doing our best”. Of course he has done his best, but it has not yet worked and it is crucial that it does work.
We are in the middle of a great national crisis—one in which Northern Ireland is the most vulnerable part of our United Kingdom. I had thought that the whole Brexit scene would be transformed had we had an operating Assembly and Executive. Therefore, I say to my noble friend: please try to get people together during the next few weeks so that, as we move towards what I hope is a deal—no deal would be particularly catastrophic for Northern Ireland—we have an operating Assembly and Executive that are ready to come in from the wings to play their part in the crucial governance of a beautiful part of our United Kingdom but one that could so easily be lost, as could Scotland, from the country that we all love.
Lord Browne of Belmont (DUP)
My Lords, I welcome the maiden speech by the noble Lord, Lord Caine. I am sure that your Lordships’ House will benefit greatly from his wisdom and expertise. Because of the time limit, I will confine my remarks mainly to the gambling report.
If we are to have a sensible and informed discussion about gambling in Northern Ireland, we have to recognise a very important fact from the outset. Northern Ireland has a significantly higher problem gambling prevalence rate than the rest of the United Kingdom. At 2.3%, it is more than four times that of England, where the problem gambling prevalence figure at the time of the survey in Northern Ireland was 0.5%. It is three times that of Scotland and more than twice that of Wales. This means that there are in the region of 30,000 to 40,000 problem gamblers in Northern Ireland, which means that the current shortfalls in our law and funding arrangements really matter.
As the report before us today recognises, the last dedicated piece of gambling legislation for Northern Ireland was passed in 1985. In this context, I have three main areas of concern. In the first instance, while the maximum stake on a fixed-odds betting terminal in Great Britain was set at £2 per spin on 1 April this year, no such legislation was introduced in Northern Ireland. I applaud the fact that some industry providers—Ladbrokes, William Hill, Paddy Power, Betfair, Toals and McLeans—announced that they would voluntarily reduce the stake from £100 to £2 in Northern Ireland on 1 April. However, not every bookmaker operating in Northern Ireland has followed suit. Northern Ireland’s citizens should not have to rely on the good will of betting companies to determine the stake on FOBTs, nor should they be left in a situation where there is inconsistency as some betting shops voluntarily act responsibly while others do not. This is a recipe for confusion.
I turn to online gambling, a topic on which I was fortunate enough to secure a two and a half hour debate in your Lordships’ House in November 2017. As I said at the time, while a huge amount of concern had been expressed then about FOBTs, there had not been much specific focus on problem gambling in relation to the online space. Since then, I am pleased to say that there seems to have been an increased awareness regarding the dangers associated with online gambling. Unlike betting shops, online gambling is available 24/7 without the player having to leave their house. Not surprisingly, it is associated with a higher problem gambling prevalence figure than gambling per se.
My concern in this debate is that the last dedicated piece of Northern Ireland gambling legislation makes no reference to online gambling—on account of the fact that there was no internet in 1985. The only other statutory provision of which I am aware is found in the UK Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Act 2014, again acknowledged by today’s report. Section 5 of the 2014 Act makes it illegal for an online gambling provider to advertise in Northern Ireland unless it has received a licence from the Gambling Commission.
Courtesy of Section 5, are gambling operators who advertise legally in Northern Ireland required to provide all the responsible gambling protections to Northern Ireland gamblers that they are required to provide to gamblers in Great Britain under the commission’s licence conditions? These provisions include the need for age verification of anyone wanting to gamble, the requirement to promote self-exclusion, policies and procedures for customer interaction where an operator has concerns that a customer’s behaviour may indicate problem gambling, and prohibitions on advertising to individuals who have chosen to self-exclude.
In asking this question, I note that the Section 3(11) report before us today talks about industry groups “implementing social responsibility measures” and adhering to,
“industry codes of practice and protocols”,
to protect people who may be experiencing problem gambling. What is not clear from the report, however, is whether this action is taking place because some providers are voluntarily taking these steps or because all online providers to the Northern Ireland market are having to take this action as a requirement of a Gambling Commission remote operating licence brought to bear on online providers to Northern Ireland through Section 5, even while the remit of the commission is Great Britain and not the United Kingdom.
This, in turn, leads to another very important question for the Minister. If the answer is that the legal protections for online problem gamblers in Northern Ireland are the same as those for problem gamblers in Great Britain, courtesy of Section 5, can the Minister confirm that a problem gambler in Northern Ireland has the same recourse in law as a problem gambler in Great Britain if he or she feels that gambling operators have not afforded them their due protection under the terms of their Gambling Commission licence?
In 2014, the Government opposed the idea of statutory financial transaction blocking to prevent unlicensed gambling providers—be they based in Great Britain, Northern Ireland or a foreign jurisdiction—from accessing the GB market. Mindful of this, and given the demands of Section 5, I would be interested to know what level of resources the Gambling Commission invests in monitoring who accesses the Northern Ireland market and how many unlicensed online providers they have detected trying to access the Northern Ireland market illegally.
One aspect of player protection that I welcome, and which I know applies fully to Northern Ireland, is GamStop. During early 2014, I was very pleased to work with the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, on an amendment to the Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Bill to introduce a multi-operator self-exclusion scheme for online gamblers. Although the Government would not accept the amendment, they agreed to ask the Gambling Commission to introduce such a scheme. GAMSTOP indeed had a soft launch last year and, as of last Friday, I understand that 97,000 people have used GAMSTOP to self-exclude themselves from online gambling. This service relates to the whole United Kingdom and thus to Northern Ireland, although it is not yet possible to disaggregate the figures to know how many of the 97,000 are from Northern Ireland.
Can the Minister inform the House of the total financial contribution by the gambling industry to help problem gamblers in Northern Ireland? This leads me to the fact that, in a Great Britain context, five of the biggest gambling companies have just committed to giving £100 million over a four-year period to funding treatment and support for problem gamblers. This is welcome news, but what about Northern Ireland, which has the highest problem gambling prevalence figures in the United Kingdom and needs investment to help problem gamblers the most?
My Lords, I regret the time limits on this debate. I had many more words to say but my time is up.
Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con)
My Lords, I too would like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Caine, on this splendid speech. The Northern Ireland Assembly was the first legislature in the UK to pass new legislation on human trafficking in 2015. That legislation was rather more comprehensive than the Modern Slavery Act here because it included the provision of support and assistance to victims.
I pay special tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, for the wonderful work he did in bringing his Private Member’s Bill through the Assembly. It is a fine example of how the Assembly can work effectively, leading the way within the UK.
In passing the human trafficking and exploitation Act, the Assembly had the foresight to include a discretionary power in Section 18(9) for the Department of Justice to continue providing support to victims after the NRM process was complete. Many of those who receive a short period of support become, when it concludes, destitute and homeless and are at very high risk of being re-trafficked. By providing discretionary support to those at risk in such circumstances, victims are able to rebuild their lives and avoid the heinous injustice of falling back into the hands of their evil traffickers.
The report published under Section 3(12) of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 outlines the number of people who have been rewarded discretionary support over the past three years. It states that 16 victims have been awarded further support. According to figures from the national referral mechanism, 83 adult victims have been referred in Northern Ireland, and it is estimated that about 29 to 40 of those victims will have been granted a positive conclusive grounds decision. The report does not give much detail as to why these 16 individuals got further support, rather than the other victims who also received a conclusive grounds decision. Will the Minister tell us whether officials have guidance on how to make decisions about extending support? If so, would he kindly make copies available to noble Lords?
Noble Lords will be aware of the debate and developments over recent years regarding what support should be provided following a conclusive grounds decision. They will also know of my own efforts through my Private Member’s Bill to increase support available to victims in England and Wales. I introduced the Modern Slavery (Victim Support) Bill partly to address the gap in the Modern Slavery Act, which did not include clear protection for victims. It was especially designed to remedy the significant problems that victims face in England and Wales after being granted a positive conclusive grounds decision. This is because they have no legally guaranteed access to ongoing support or services.
We will rob victims of their recovery if we fail to help them on the road towards long-term rehabilitation. Unless we provide them with secure long-term support, guaranteed by law, we will create uncertainty, which makes it more likely that they will fall right back into the vulnerable state that made them a target for traffickers in the first place.
Supporting victims towards recovery is also central to a successful criminal justice response. We know that if we are going to see more successful investigations and convictions for these offences, we need to help victims feel safe and secure enough to tell police what they know, and even perhaps to give evidence in court. This is unlikely to be the case if they are destitute, homeless and prey to the evil traffickers yet again. This is a desperate and appalling situation, which must be put right forthwith.
My Bill proposes 12 months’ support for victims of modern slavery after a conclusive grounds decision, with leave to remain in the UK during that time. The University of Nottingham conducted a cost-benefit analysis of my Bill and found that it had the potential to save government money. A longer period of support would enable victims to get back into work, supporting themselves and contributing to the economy and the country through tax. Also, the cost of rescuing victims from crises such as homelessness and re-trafficking is high, and a longer period of support would reduce the scope for these situations.
The discretionary power in the excellent Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Criminal Justice and Support for Victims) Act (Northern Ireland) is paving the way forward for longer-term help for victims. England and Wales must continue this progressive trend on victim support, and I believe my Bill not only catches Northern Ireland up, but goes rather further, so I hope the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, feels that, on victim support—if the Bill becomes law—Northern Ireland might seek to follow England and Wales.
In passing, I pay tribute to Theresa May, who took my Private Member’s anti-slavery Bill through the Commons. It has been such a great success not only in this country but in many other parts of the world. All credit to her.
Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Caine, on his maiden speech. I wish him well in his work here in the House.
Much has been said today about the return of devolution to Northern Ireland. Yes, it is essential that devolved government returns in Northern Ireland sooner rather than later. I suggest that that will not be an easy task but I hope that all the parties have entered into the talks process in good faith and that they continue to work to see Stormont back up and working. This was certainly the objective with which we, the Democratic Unionist Party, entered into the talks: to see the success of the talks. We said as a party that whatever agreement came out of the talks must be fair and balanced and command broad support and agreement across the communities in Northern Ireland.
The political vacuum cannot be allowed to continue. Dissident republicans are now targeting police officers on a nightly basis. Just last night we had a pipe bomb in Strabane. There are daily instances of bombs being made by dissident republicans. The worry in Northern Ireland is that someone else will fill the vacuum if we cannot get the institutions up and running. There is no doubt about that. Do we really want to bring another generation in Northern Ireland through what we all went through? I think not, so the stakes are high for getting the Assembly up and running.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, talked about health. I shall say a few words about education. Education in Northern Ireland is in a mess. You have only to speak to teachers, and to school principals in particular. The budgets are under terrible pressure. When it comes to the impact of the funding crisis in the classroom, principals, governors and parents continually bend over backwards to make sure that the cuts do not impact on the children, but it is only a matter of time.
The noble Lord spoke of our health service and the waiting list that grows continually for appointments for routine surgery, with people waiting for two years or more in agony awaiting hip replacements. We see projects that are shovel-ready in Northern Ireland, with the funding in place, that are not able to begin because there are no Ministers in place. That is right across the Province, where a number of major projects could get the go-ahead in the morning if we had Ministers in place in the Assembly.
I want to address the question of the sustainability of the Assembly and the institutions. It is completely unfair for any party to be able to walk away from the institutions over a particular issue and say, “We’re not going back into government”, and the whole house of cards comes down around us. If the Assembly ever gets back, and I hope it does, then we need to bring sustainability to the institutions and the Assembly itself.
I turn to the expansion of Ulster University and especially of the Magee campus in Londonderry. There have been proposals for a scaled expansion of the university at Magee to raise the student numbers to 9,000 from the current number of around 4,000. The problem has been the business case. We are looking at funding of around £300 million over a period of time to do what needs to be done. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, when he was a Minister, raised the issue, as did previous Ministers, of how the expansion of Magee at the University of Ulster could be resolved. There is some talk of trying to get this issue into the city deal. I see it is very much part of the city deal, and £105 million has already been announced for that deal within the city. However, it is sitting there at the moment. It is going nowhere. Once again, we need a Minister and to have an Executive up and running to push the whole thing forward. There is great talk about an independent university in Londonderry. This has been floated since 2012-13, but no firm proposals have come forward.
I want to speak very quickly about a medical school for the city. In 2016, following cross-party political support, the university continued to develop the project, working closely with the department and all relevant parties. Ulster University’s proposal is designed to address the current health crisis and future-proof care positions across Northern Ireland. The graduate entry medical school business case was submitted to the Department of Health at the start of July, following close engagement with the department and all relevant partners. The proposed first academic year of enrolments outlined in the updated business case is 2020-21. The department has worked with Ulster University on the completion of the business case, so the whole issue of the medical school has moved forward. However, once again, we are in limbo because we have no Minister to give direction on the funding. The funding is very important to move the whole project on.
I will finish by saying that we must not have a repeat in future of what we have had over the past few years, so that never again can one single party hold Northern Ireland to ransom and leave us without a Government. We need to see the institutions restored in a sustainable way. I believe that with good will and good work that can happen.
Baroness O'Loan (CB)
My Lords, I would like to express my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Caine, on his very fine maiden speech.
During the passage of the Bill that led to this Act, I asked what abortion law would look like in Northern Ireland after the passing of the Act. I asked whether it would be the European norm of 12 weeks or follow the Abortion Act 1967 which allows abortion up to 24 weeks and abortion of people with a disability right up to birth. That Bill passed 50 years ago and has no cognisance of modern obstetric knowledge and practice. Two months later, I am no clearer; nor it appears is the Northern Ireland Office, since it says that,
“much further work is required”.
We do know that if the Executive does not re-form by 21 October—I sincerely hope that it does—the legal framework will disappear. Six weeks tomorrow, there will be no regulation of abortion in Northern Ireland up to the point of viability. The presumption, which is rebuttable in law, is that viability occurs at 28 weeks. We will be back to the position we were in in the mid-19th century before the Offences against the Person Act 1861. I do not know how the Government got themselves into this position. They had agreed that matters would be dealt with only by or with the consent of the devolved Assembly. We have an Assembly, even if we do not have an Executive, and the Members of the Legislative Assembly were not consulted at all.
The careful planning which normally applies and which is being done for the organ donation Act, for example, has not applied to this, so I have further questions for the Minister. When will details of the new law be available for consultation? Will your Lordships’ House be consulted or has Parliament written a blank cheque for abortion in Northern Ireland? How will the Government seek the views of the people of Northern Ireland and their elected representatives? It will not be enough to consult only the medical profession or its professional bodies. Have the Government started to consult the medical profession? If so, when did that consultation start and with whom is it occurring? Can the Minister confirm that, in the interim period, subject to the provision about viability, it will be possible to abort a baby up to 28 weeks for any reason whatever, including if the baby is the “wrong” sex or has a minor disability? Is the guidance or consultative paper in draft form now? If so, will he place it in the Library so that we can consider it? If it is not in draft form, can it be placed in the Library as soon as it is ready?
There was no human rights deficit before this Act, but the passing of the Act will mean that in terms of the Istanbul convention, Northern Ireland will become less compliant in human rights terms. Therefore, the UK as a whole will be failing in its obligations under the Istanbul convention to protect women against coercive abortion from 22 October. The Government cannot rely on the proposed domestic violence Bill to address this deficit in the current volatile political situation. It has been said that professional bodies will regulate the matter and ensure that services are provided only in a proper manner. Professional bodies regulate conduct, not the law. That is why the Act provides for regulations.
If such an arrangement involving a complete limbo of over five months were imposed on England and Wales, there would be an outcry. There is an outcry in Northern Ireland. The necessity for the regulation of abortion has been shown by repeated CQC inspection reports on abortion clinics showing failed abortions, emergency transfers to NHS hospitals, most recently in BPAS Merseyside, and failings in the safety of services. We need a regime of inspection regulation.
We cannot know how widely abortion services will be available from 22 October. Will the drugs to induce early abortion be made available from that date? Will patients have a right to demand such a prescription? Will doctors be able to refuse an immediate prescription if they do not want to prescribe? Will women be self-administering in the absence of medical help, with the attendant risks? How will medical professionals’ rights to freedom of conscience be provided for?
Your Lordships know that this Act undermines the devolution settlement. People in Northern Ireland feel very, very strongly about this. I was among the 20,000 who went to Stormont on Friday night to protest, as was the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, and again on Saturday I was out in the centre of Belfast with the many thousands who demonstrated against this change, a change in which we have had no say and still do not know what it is really going to mean. The regulations required under Section 9 must, under Section 12, be agreed after they come into effect. The regulations cease to have effect after 28 days unless approved. But the 28 days takes no account of any time in which Parliament is dissolved or prorogued or both Houses are adjourned for more than four days. We cannot predict what is going to happen in the days to come. If we go to an election, as seems highly likely, it could be months before we have any clarity, but we will have no regulation of abortion from 22 October.
The Northern Ireland parties must make their return to the Assembly a priority. Government must do more to facilitate proper talks. That we should still be in bilateral talks at this stage of the proceedings is quite distressing. At the end of the day, the parties could come back into Stormont, form an Executive and then walk away again. The Act could not then come into effect. I say to Sinn Féin and the DUP that this is what they should do at the very least to remedy this unprecedented democratic deficit. In the interim, if that does not happen, there should be no limbo period at all. Government have the responsibility in this matter, having assumed it by enabling the Act. Government should pass emergency legislation to remove the limbo period, bringing the legislation into effect only after the regulations are passed or Stormont meets again. The UK would then be compliant with its Istanbul convention obligations. We need emergency legislation to cover the period from 22 October and we need any new regulations to be the subject of consultation with our MLAs so that there is some respect for the democratic rights of the ordinary people of Northern Ireland.
Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)
I join other noble Lords in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Caine, on an excellent speech and on the passion he shows in the interests of the people of Northern Ireland. When Sinn Féin MLAs brought the Executive down they did so under the disguise that they had a concern about the RHI scheme. I have an abiding concern about the financial viability of many of our farmers and those who participated in this scheme in good faith, yet they are being penalised with terms and tariffs different from the mainland or those that will be enjoyed by people in the Irish Republic. That must be rectified with extreme urgency, but it is not mentioned in any of the reports we are debating.
I agree with the report pursuant to Section 3(1) that there is considerable frustration in Northern Ireland at the ongoing absence of an Executive and a large number of pressing public policy issues have gone unresolved because of that. In fact, in Northern Ireland one in 16 people are on waiting lists for a year. In England it is one in 48,524, meaning that you are 3,000 times more likely to wait over a year for treatment than in our counterparts in the rest of the kingdom. If Sinn Féin is unwilling to let the Executive be restored, then the people of Northern Ireland must be governed.
On the issue of victims’ payments, without a proper system in place in many instances families are still being denied the justice they deserve. However, there can be no equivalence between the bomber and the innocent victim. The definition of a victim must be changed; it is immoral. According to the dictionary definition, a victim is someone who has been hurt, damaged or killed or has suffered because of the actions of someone else. Those who deliberately set out to murder and those innocents who were injured or slain as a result of terrorist actions cannot be looked on as the same. To equate those who are direct victims of terrorism to those who are injured as a result of their own actions while perpetrating atrocities is insulting. We are seeking a new United Kingdom-wide definition that would exclude terrorists injured in their actions.
On 22 July, the DUP deputy leader Nigel Dodds raised the lack of confidence in the victims’ commissioner during Questions in the other place. On 24 July the Belfast South MP Emma Little-Pengelly wrote to the commissioner to explain the loss of confidence among victims, urging her to change course. Although the commissioner operated under a definition, this does not mean that she cannot recommend legislative change. This is particularly the case for the special pension proposed, which would require new legislative criteria. The fact that she has not done so has disappointed and dismayed many innocent victims. The Government need to work for healing among victims, rather than causing further hurt.
Without apology, the DUP has consistently advocated a strong pro-life position. Abortion is one issue where I believe alliances have developed across the main traditions in the community and the political parties. The extension of the 1967 Act has been opposed by many in all the main parties. The sheer scale of protests in Northern Ireland at the weekend shows the strength of feeling, and research by the Both Lives Matter campaign indicated that at least 100,000 people are alive in Northern Ireland today who would not be alive if the 1967 Act had been extended to Northern Ireland. The drastic approach envisaged in the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act would be unacceptable for Northern Ireland and leave no effective legal framework in place. Northern Ireland’s existing position has been considered down the years to offer an appropriate balance and it should be for the elected representatives in Northern Ireland, representing the electorate who voted for them, to decide this vital issue of life and death.
Another issue of considerable concern is the understandable frustration among those long-suffering victims of historical abuse. Sir Anthony Hart’s report put forward recommendations for financial recognition of the horrible crimes perpetrated against some of the most fragile and helpless young people in our society. Delay is a shame and a disgrace, and only serves to heighten the injustice against them. A lack of devolution has been a barrier to this matter being progressed. In the absence of devolution, the Government have a moral duty to meet their financial commitment, but ultimately the institutions that closed their eyes to the abuse must be prepared to make their contribution to this compensation, as has happened elsewhere.
Justice demands that we address the vitally important issue of the military covenant and the treatment of our armed forces veterans. A significant proportion of veterans who served on Operation Banner currently reside in Northern Ireland. In addition, armed forces personnel from Northern Ireland have been deployed in Iraq, Afghanistan and many other countries. The armed forces covenant is not about giving preferential treatment. It is a commitment of care to the servicemen and women who gave so much for our nation. It ensures that those who have served us do not suffer disadvantage by virtue of their service when it comes to provision of housing, education and healthcare.
In Northern Ireland, the covenant does not apply fully; it does elsewhere in the United Kingdom. It is a sad reality that veterans in Northern Ireland are disadvantaged at present by virtue of their service. We have the opportunity, here and in the other place, to reflect on this situation and do something about the rights of veterans in Northern Ireland. I hope the Minister agrees that a clear legislative underpinning of the military covenant throughout the nation would be a logical and sensible step.
Lord Maginnis of Drumglass (Ind UU)
My Lords, I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Caine. I knew him first when he was at the Northern Ireland office in Washington, and he was most helpful to me in my early days as a Member of Parliament.
I am grateful to be able to intervene in the gap. When I had this fistful of papers thrust upon me at the end of last week, I had thought to ignore what is little more than an egotistical NIO exercise with little historical reality or future prospects. What I say is no reflection on the Minister, who has always sought to be helpful to me, but it has not gone unnoticed that at a time when both the Commons, and to some considerable degree, this House, has abandoned any responsibility to reflect the democratic will of the electorate, we are experiencing this egocentric Northern Ireland exercise, which has little historical reality and few concrete prospects. I ask the Minister: has the long-promised retrievable heat initiative independent assessor, promised some considerable time ago in this House, been appointed yet?
On 10 July, I had to reveal the scandal relating to Lee Hegarty and his £10,000 buy off for being offended by a portrait of Her Majesty. Mr Hegarty having been at the NIO in London for several years before being offended in Northern Ireland is unimportant; the then Secretary of State, on the advice of the manipulative current head of the Northern Ireland Office, Sir Jonathan Stephens, authorised a below-the-counter payment. Is his ill judgment to go unpunished for its deviousness? In respect of appointment functions that are mentioned in the papers that we have received, is that biased individual to exercise his current role? Is he to have the privilege of endorsing his placemen? Impartiality, my Lords—I ask you. Can anyone tell me why no has sought to tell us from where this £10,000 under-the-counter payment was extracted? That cannot be answered by this irrelevant mish-mash.
Left as we have been without any tangible support in Northern Ireland, I have to ask in the face of this: are we still considered to be a meaningful part of the United Kingdom? Since Northern Ireland has been neglected by three successive Secretaries of State and by two past Prime Ministers, I cannot accept that this nonsense we are debating is anything other than a trivial and dangerous bluff. If I were a Shinner—a Sinn Féiner—I would never get myself back to the Northern Ireland Assembly and, given their continuous buy-off, they will not. I caution this House that this has to stop. When are we to rid ourselves of this endemic treachery?
Lord Eames (CB)
My Lords, it is a privilege to join the welcome and tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Caine, on his maiden speech. I have had occasion to see him at work in Stormont House in Belfast but, more important than that, to know something of the influence he has had over the years in that role. I too welcome him.
How much repetition can this House take when it comes to Northern Ireland? How much can we yearn for something new? We talk of the definition of a victim; we need a victims’ definition that covers the entire United Kingdom, in which the difference between self-inflicted wrong and innocent suffering is clearly defined. We need some recognition in Northern Ireland, and in the United Kingdom generally, of the evil in the ongoing hunt of veterans who gave so much during our Troubles; for it is the legacy of those years that still reaches out to my generation, which came through so much during them. That legacy will constantly dominate all discussions on Northern Ireland as long as we allow it to dictate how people view Northern Ireland.
It is for that reason that we must state that in the sense of victimhood, suffering, enduring and, above all, coming through the situation, everyone who lived in Northern Ireland suffered change in their lives because of the experience of the Troubles. I speak as one who has tried to serve Northern Ireland over the years in a pastoral capacity. It is when we come to recognise the special nature of victimhood—the sort of definition that Denis Bradley and I looked at all those years ago—and get to the truth of the element of what “victimhood” really means that we can clearly define the difference that society desperately needs.
The people who the reports we are considering address tonight are utterly disillusioned by the failure of the body politic. They see it in terms of their local Assembly; they are also asking questions about the nature of devolution and about who cares. So often when they look to the mother of Parliaments, they do not get a clear answer. For that reason, in my limited contribution tonight, may I simply make the plea again for realism towards what is happening in Northern Ireland, as Brexit comes down the track on to a part of the United Kingdom which will feel the full force of Brexit without an agreement?
Lord Hayward (Con)
My Lords, I add my comments to all the others about my noble friend Lord Caine’s maiden speech. In the interest of brevity, I hope he will accept the mere word, “congratulations”. Much of the debate this evening has been, quite rightly, about problems. However, when I last spoke in this House we passed the legislation on same-sex marriage. On the first weekend in August I had the pleasure of marching, in my rugby club colours, with the Taoiseach at the head of Belfast’s Pride march, with literally tens of thousands of people on the streets. For somebody who had not been to Belfast for a number of years, it was a truly joyous occasion. The city has changed and its attitudes are also, in some ways, changing.
Since then I have had the opportunity of meeting, with other people, the Minister and the Minister in the Commons to talk about the implementation of same-sex marriage legislation. I have three questions to put on the record. I know the Minister will answer these in writing at a later stage; he does not need to comment. First, will he identify the steps being taken to ensure that the deadline of 13 January for the regulations to come into effect is met? Secondly, will he identify the timeline and nature of any consultation on regulations to allow same-sex marriage in Northern Ireland from 13 January? Thirdly, what advice can the Minister give to same-sex couples in Northern Ireland who are planning a wedding in the new year? When I spoke at Queen’s University prior to the march, a number of couples were genuinely celebrating the achievement of this legislation.
In conclusion, I refer to a comment made by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, when she intervened in a speech I was making. She said that she hoped she would be invited to my rugby club’s next party. Since then, as the noble Baroness knows, the RFU gave my club its national team of the year award at its annual dinner some 10 days ago. I guarantee that when we celebrate—some of the members are still celebrating from two Thursdays ago—the noble Baroness will be invited.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, what better way is there to get towards the end of the debate than with such an invitation? I gladly accept it.
We are grateful to the Minister for his introduction to this debate and to the earlier SI. He is always candid and honest with your Lordships’ House. We understand the frustration he feels in negotiations. We have perhaps not made as much progress as he would like. Speaking of frustration, it is worth placing on record that the only reason we are here is that there is no sitting Assembly and Executive to take the decisions we would all prefer they took. As my noble friends Lord Dubs and Lord Hain—former direct-rule Ministers in Northern Ireland—said, we are 100% committed and will work towards the end of getting the Assembly up and running and local Ministers in place.
I understand from the comments of our colleagues in the DUP that they share that objective, but if the other side of the community were represented here, they would probably lay the blame on the DUP in the same way that the DUP lays all the blame on Sinn Féin. It is only when both sides come together, saying that they need to work together and taking a step back to find the way forward, that we can get to the position we need to be in. It is wrong to apportion all the blame to one side or the other. That is certainly not the role of this House. We—and the Government—want to see discussions taking place that lead to genuine progress for the people of Northern Ireland.
The frustrations are also felt by the Civil Service, which is having to implement and act on decisions that it would rather Ministers were taking. They want ministerial guidance throughout their work. Talking to friends who work in the Northern Ireland Civil Service, it is a frustration for them that they have no Ministers to guide the work they do.
I take issue with just one comment the Minister made, which I rarely do, I have to say. He said he would be happy to update your Lordships’ House in the coming weeks. I am sure he would be happy to, but his Prime Minister is going to prevent him doing so when the House prorogues for five very long weeks later today.
It is right to pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Caine, and what was a thoughtful speech that showed both his expertise and his commitment. I wish other advisers in government had the self-discipline he displayed, even though he described the frustrations he felt over the past few years at not being able to speak. I am pleased that he now can, and I hope we will hear more from him, not just on this issue, where he adds value, but on other issues; we will welcome the contribution he has to make.
What we have in these reports is a compilation of issues that have not been dealt with because of the absence of devolved government. There are issues that need urgent action. We have heard about a whole range tonight: out-of-date gambling legislation; lack of medical staff and problems in the health service; sustainable funding for higher education; through to those critical issues affecting victims. Of course, we have heard many other contributions on the issues relating to abortion. I would be very interested in the Minister’s response to the comments of my noble friend Lord Dubs—which he has made many times before—about a facilitator engaging in the discussions to help them along. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, also raised this issue. I know the Minister does his best, but he will also know that I have been quite critical of the Government at this Dispatch Box for a number of years for not engaging more. I think we are in a better place than we were, but I think a facilitator would be very helpful.
I was the Victims Minister for about two years in Northern Ireland and I was deeply affected by those I spoke to and engaged with and the stories they had to tell me. It is all very well for us to sit here and talk, but the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, made the point that unless you have actually lived through that time it is very hard to understand the depth of the impact it has on individuals. The cost of failing to have an Assembly to deal with such issues constitutes a very high price for victims and their families; they are the ones who will pay for any further delays. I welcome the Minister’s comments tonight and I am sure my noble friend Lord Hain, who has pushed so very hard on the issue of pensions, with other noble Lords, will also welcome them. I hope the Minister will say a little more about the progress made; any timescales would be helpful.
On the question of victims, I was disappointed not to see in the reports an issue I have raised with the Minister before, and I am sure he anticipated my raising it: the hyponatraemia report I commissioned some 18 years ago. It took many years to finalise and the families whose children died still feel very aggrieved that the recommendations in the report have not been implemented because political decisions are required. It is worth reflecting on that as an example. In how many areas are the lives of ordinary members of the public in Northern Ireland impacted by the failure to have an Assembly? Although that was not mentioned, can he say something about it? Perhaps he could write to me, but I think we owe it to those families to say that we care about this issue and it will not be forgotten.
The key issue in all this is the gap in governance in Northern Ireland, in the face of what we regard as an irresponsible Prorogation. I will not be taking part in any Prorogation service this evening. Exit day is upcoming and as the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, and others have said, the risk of no deal to Northern Ireland will be felt acutely. My noble friend Lord Hain mentioned this as well: the impact of no deal on Northern Ireland would be huge and I hope that the Minister’s colleagues in the House of Commons will not help to facilitate that by supporting Boris Johnson in pursuing it.
The outgoing Secretary of State for Work and Pensions told some truths on behalf of the Prime Minister this weekend. She commented that there is an absence of work going on under his leadership to actually try to get a deal. She estimated that 80% to 90% of government action is preparing for a no-deal Brexit. Surely, 80% to 90% of government action should be preparing for getting a deal and avoiding no deal. There is now immense time pressure, and it would be useful if the Prime Minister were to show his commitment to the future of Northern Ireland. That time could be more wisely used to avoid a damaging no-deal Brexit.
We have already heard today my noble friend Lord Murphy refer to the resignation watch that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is being placed under; such are his concerns about a no-deal Brexit for Northern Ireland—he feels it is so grave—that other members of the Government are concerned about him.
The thread that runs through these reports, and which has been raised today, is the need to restore devolved government. The reports talk about the need for renewed determination and “intensive engagement.” What does that intensive engagement actually look like? What engagement does the Minister expect to take place during Prorogation? If that is a hiatus in any discussions taking place, we are allowing Northern Ireland to hurtle towards an unmitigated disaster. Who will be involved? Can he say anything today about considerations for an external facilitator? I assure him that this side of the House will fully co-operate with him in helping to identify and support the role of such a facilitator.
I turn to a couple of other issues. One is the unanimous support of all Northern Ireland parties for compensation for victims of historical abuse. I welcome that support; a lot of work has been undertaken. We understand the Secretary of State will bring forward legislation at “the earliest possible opportunity”. Can the Minister confirm tonight that that means the legislation will be in the Queen’s Speech? There are five more weeks to work on it—quite a long time—and I hope he can confirm that, or at least say that it has not been ruled out, because it is very important.
There are a number of issues in respect of which Parliament set a deadline that action must be taken if an Executive were not in place by 21 October. These include victims’ payments, which the Minister has said something about, same-sex marriage and abortion provision. I must say I was slightly concerned when noble Lords said that there was no human rights deficit prior to this. Yes, there was, and it has been identified. I will not rehearse the long arguments we had in Committee and on Report, but the fact remains that in Northern Ireland a woman who has had an abortion, having been the victim of a violent rape, faces a greater penalty than the rapist. That can never be acceptable. We have to consider this; if that is not abuse of human rights, it is hard to identify what is. I know the Minister took those comments on board at the time but, in the light of Prorogation, we need an assurance from him that these issues are not on the back-burner and will be actively progressed. The fact that this House is not sitting does not mean that Ministers will not be doing the work they need to do to ensure that these issues are addressed.
Lord Duncan of Springbank
My Lords, it has been, as is often the case, quite an odyssey this evening. As the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, has mentioned, in these debates you tend to mention not just anything but everything.
I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Caine, who gave his maiden speech this evening. I have been privileged to have his forthright advice on a number of occasions; he has always been very clear when I am wrong and when I am right. I have always appreciated his candour and I know the House will appreciate it as well. He has forgotten more about Northern Ireland than some of us will ever know, and we will all benefit from his wise words, careful counsel and forthright language. I know, from listening to his maiden speech, that his father would be immeasurably proud. I will respond directly to the point he raised on the legacy issue; he raises interesting points regarding how we might define them, and I will look at them with some great care. We need to do that, there is merit in doing so, and I will arrange a time to sit with him when we may raise a glass and talk further about that to see what resolution we can reach.
I will try my best in the time available to address all the issues as best I can, in sequential order. I will begin with the concept of victims’ pensions; the noble Lord, Lord Hain, has been assiduous on this matter. The clear issue must be that no payments will be made to anyone who is injured by their own hand. That is a cast-iron statement; I have made it before and will make it again. I am happy to emphasise that; this is not for terrorists to claim funds but for those who have been seriously injured to ensure that they are able to secure recompense for the remainder of their lives. I hope that that money does some good and that it arrives as quickly as possible. My team is working actively to meet the timescale. The noble Lord and others will be aware that we have to arrange a number of elements of this to make sure that it is fair and transparent. However, we will do so, and it will be done within the timescale—that is a necessary element.
I know that a number of noble Lords have been concerned about the definition of a victim; that is a broader question than the question before us on victims’ pensions. I do not want to be drawn too much on that; I know that in answering questions the victims’ commissioner herself has made reference to her original terms of reference, which are on a broader base than we are talking about here. However, the broader question of a victims’ definition needs to be addressed not just in Northern Ireland but across the United Kingdom, and with some haste, because it has been too long. I would like to see that moving forward as quickly as I can make it so.
The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, asked a series of questions—I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, who has been helpful in all matters regarding Northern Ireland. They were primarily around the restoration of an Executive, and some of them touched on the questions raised at the very end by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, on what happens during a period of Prorogation. Several things must happen. The first is that we are not on leave. The whole point of this is that the Secretary of State will now be doubling and trebling those efforts; he will have more time away from the other place to do that. At that point, there needs to be an intensification of that engagement. At present, we have been seeking to do so on the basis of a series of round-table discussions, each tasked with certain elements. Progress has been made, as I said before in my remarks in the earlier speech. Many of these are around issues of transparency and the coming together of some of the institutional elements. We are still stumbling—there is no point denying it—on the question of culture and identity as these parts fit together. I just cannot believe that we cannot solve that. That is why I believe that my right honourable friend in the other place will do everything he can during this period of Prorogation, and with the support of every Member of this House.
It is important again to recognise that moving this forward with intensity will require a greater effort from the other parties as well. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, was right to remind me that we have not had a five-party meeting since that period in August; we need to see that five-party gathering again, and there needs to be an intensification to deliver that. As I said on previous occasions today and in the past, there has never been a greater need than now to have the voice of Northern Ireland recognised throughout.
I will delve straight into the question of abortion, which a number of noble Lords raised. There are several things to put into context. If an Executive are restored, that will be a matter for that restored Executive. If that Executive are not restored, then on 22 October we will move into a period during which there will be the various elements necessary to deliver a new regime for abortion in Northern Ireland. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, raised a number of points on some detailed questions, which I noted down and which I will go through. Until we reach 22 October, we cannot publish any documents, because at present we have to assume that we can restore the Executive. After we have reached that point, all documents will be produced and lodged in the Library, and noble Lords will have access to those. There will be no attempt to try to cover them up—they will be entirely transparent.
Again, it is our intention to focus primarily on consultation with professional bodies to ensure that we are aware of the reservations and concerns as well as to ensure that we learn from their experience. That will not just be professional bodies in Northern Ireland but also those which have gone through the system elsewhere in Scotland, England and Wales. We will draw on that knowledge to ensure that we have that information available as we go forward. Of course, the consultation will continue only after we have reached that point. As I have said, a consultative paper will be launched. It will be clearly put out and it will be transparent.
The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, raised the Istanbul convention, and I want to address that head on. The UK Government have signed that convention but they have not yet ratified it. This means that it has not yet been incorporated into domestic law. This is consistent with the dual approach that the UK takes in relation to international law. Further domestic legislative changes are required in order to be fully compliant with the commitments in the convention ahead of the UK’s ratification. These include some measures which the Government have brought forward in the domestic abuse Bill, including extending extra-territorial jurisdiction for the criminal courts in relation to violent and sexual offences. Therefore, no part of the United Kingdom will be bound by the Istanbul convention until we have completed the ratification process.
On the question of what will happen during the period after 22 October, any cases which are in the courts will fall. I am thinking of one particular case where the mother purchased the appropriate pills; that case will lapse. I believe that it was to happen half way through November, but it will not be taken forward. On the question of the responsibility of doctors during the period, one of the greater challenges facing this country is the purchase of drugs online. It is easy to purchase them and it is difficult to monitor. I do not doubt that there are methods that we as a Government need to consider how to address. At the moment, doctors themselves will be bound by what I would hope will be their code of ethics. That code should help to ensure that this is not a free-for-all going forward, and nor should it be. Moreover, that code of ethics needs a sound base. We also have to recognise that there is a morality clause within this. Those who feel that they are unable to move forward in this regard will not be compelled to do so and we will consult on how that clause is to work in Northern Ireland. It will necessarily draw on the experience elsewhere in England, Wales and Scotland. There will be no compulsion on any individual to be put into a situation where their faith or any other beliefs are in contradiction with the acts which they are expected to perform.
The issue that we are going to face thereafter will be a more challenging one. The noble Baroness said that this undermines the devolution settlement. Much of what we are doing right now unfortunately does indeed clearly undermine the settlement. It can be realised only when the devolved Assembly is working and the Executive are functioning. Until that happens, everything we do here undermines the devolved settlement. That is a sad admission to make, but it is true.
Perhaps I may continue by turning to some of the other points raised in the debate. I am always pleased to respond to the noble Lord, Lord Dubs. He raised the question of the responsiveness of those in Northern Ireland to child refugees. I think that we need to make some more progress on this, so I would suggest to the noble Lord that, if he will allow me, I will seek to broker meetings directly with those concerned in Northern Ireland and I will invite him to attend them. At present I cannot instruct that, but I will seek to reach out to the departments in Northern Ireland and, if I can, to local authorities as well. I want to get to the root of this issue. If there are individuals who are willing to participate, I want to know about that and I want to take this matter forward. If he will accept that, I think that we can make a little progress here.
The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, raised a number of issues on the Bill he took forward on human trafficking. It is an extraordinarily important Bill which has done good. He asked some very specific questions. Given the late hour, I hope that he will allow me to respond directly to those questions in writing and I will place the responses in the Library of the House so that all noble Lords can see them. I recognise the points he has made which are humanitarian in their endeavours and I want to make sure that I do not mislead the House in my responses to them. As I say, he will have a written reply as soon as my team can make that so.
I shall touch on a couple of the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Empey. The first is his reference to the Magee campus. I hope that it will form a significant of the city deal. I believe that if we are in a situation where that can be delivered, I think that we can make some serious progress.
When looking at the question of historical institutional abuse, a matter raised by a number of noble Lords, I should say that we want to make progress by the end of the year. That is a commitment I made to the noble Baroness on the last occasion we talked about this issue. It seems like yesterday, but I imagine it must have been in July. I believe that we can make progress by the end of the year. While there are challenges tucked inside this issue and I do not want to mislead anyone about what they represent, but we will do all we can to move the matter forward.
The noble Lord, Lord Browne, asked some questions in an area that I was less familiar with, which is that of gambling. He raised some very specific points. If the noble Lord will permit, I will write to him and lodge the answers to those questions in the House. We recognise—with the statistics that he quoted—that gambling in Northern Ireland being four times the English rate, three times the Scottish rate and twice the Welsh rate is extraordinary. I would like to get to the bottom of that and learn more. I may commission some research to find out if we can understand what on earth is going on in Northern Ireland. I commit to responding to each of the points that he raised during his intervention.
I was pleased to hear the noble Lord, Lord McColl. He put forward the very specific question of whether officials have guidance on how to make decisions about extending support and whether I would be able to make copies of it available. As I previously advised, the provision was included in order to ensure a smooth transition for victims exiting DoJ-contracted support into longer-term arrangements. Therefore, it is exercised on a case-by-case basis, according to need. For example, we would continue to provide support to an individual under Section 18(9) where an appropriate exit plan is not in place. That is, for example, if accommodation had not been secured. In general, the support providers will work with potential victims from the point of referral into support to ensure that the appropriate arrangements are made for when they exit that support. This is why Section 18(9) has been used only in respect of a small number of cases where it has been identified as necessary and in the best interests of the victim to ensure the smooth transition to longer-term arrangements. I will be very happy to write to the noble Lord as well, confirming this information and expanding on it. I believe he deserves a fuller response than I have been able to give him this evening.
The noble Lord, Lord Hay, raised the issue of education and the noble Lord, Lord Empey, raised the matter of health. They both are in a sorry state in Northern Ireland. We know why that is and what has to be done to sort it out. There will, necessarily, be a Budget for Northern Ireland that will emerge soon after Prorogation but, as noble Lords will be aware, that is a trajectory budget based on the outgoing Executive and, frankly, it does no good in the areas that have been discussed. Therefore, I welcome the interventions and expect further discussion on this. We need to make sure that an incoming Executive are ready to take these matters forward. Should there not be an incoming Executive, responsible Ministers will take these education and health matters forward with the urgency I believe they require.
The noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, as ever, raised interesting points. On the RHI assessment, I have it written down somewhere. The Department for the Economy has recently updated the NIAC on progress relating to the hardship unit, including on the call for evidence, which ran from 17 June to 10 July 2019. The DfE has stated that it will move to appoint the independent chair as soon as possible. I will be held to that, so we need to make sure we get a date against it. A report providing an update on progress on the establishment of an RHI hardship unit will be published on or before 21 October 2019, in line with the requirement of Section 3(17) of the EF Act. The person in the Box needs to develop bigger handwriting because that was quite tricky.
The other issue that we need to touch on is the question of the £10,000 to the individual who was offended by the picture of the Queen. I will not comment on the details, but I might have thought that that money—even at this late stage—could be given to charity. That would be no bad thing.
The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, often brings us back to the point. There is disillusionment in Northern Ireland and I fully understand that. I understand why and he will as well. Politicians have let people down, both here and in Northern Ireland, and the people of Northern Ireland are no longer trusting of us. That will be manifest in many different ways as the years come and none of them will be good. That is why we need to get to the stage of intense discussions, which I spoke of before, from my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.
We have to intensify these talks, but they require all participants to be willing to take that next step. If we are being honest, they will have do so against a backdrop of Brexit. Sometimes politicians have to step up to challenges. They cannot simply wait for somebody else to pick up the dustpan and brush to sweep it all up and then get involved. They need to do it now. We know what is coming. We know how difficult it will be for Northern Ireland. They have got to recognise what has to be done. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, raised the point that all need to participate in that endeavour.
My noble friend Lord Hayward raised the question of same-sex marriage. I will write to him on that. I was very pleased to hear that he marched alongside the Taoiseach in Belfast. I saw the photographs—he sent plenty of them to me, so there was no surprise there. We will meet the deadline. In order to do so, we will basically learn the lessons from the implementation of similar legislation in England and Wales, as well as in Scotland, and we will make sure that the consultation is done correctly all the way through. As for its timing, clearly, as I said, we cannot begin until 22 October, the reason being that that is when we are committed to carrying it out. However, we will do so and will make sure that the consultation, such as it will be, with each of the bodies, including on the morality or conscience clauses, is made available to all in this House and lodged in the Library.
My noble friend asked what the individuals in Northern Ireland who are preparing to get wed should do. The answer is: get ready for Valentine’s Day, because that is when they can do it. I can think of no better time than Valentine’s Day. I hope that that satisfies my noble friend. I will of course write to him confirming each of those elements.
I am getting there. I believe that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, is the last but by no means the least. I shall touch upon the hyponatraemia report. We need to get this sorted out, so I now make a commitment at the Dispatch Box that we will look at it again in greater detail to see what the problems are and whether we can move it forward. I suggest that at some point we sit on this matter over a cup of tea to see whether we can find a way forward. I think that that would be sensible and necessary.
The noble Baroness raised a number of points around the question of Prorogation. I can assure her that, as I said earlier, this is not a leave of absence. The Northern Ireland Office will be doubling or trebling its efforts to ensure that we can deliver that which we have committed to do. Importantly, we need to do so as transparently as possible, and I hope that the next series of reports that come along as part of the Bill will deliver on those items. I am not sure whether my right honourable friend is on resignation watch but I know that he will have a very busy time ahead, and I understand why.
As to the point about the external facilitator, as I said, the individual chairs of the break-out sessions are independent. We have not lost sight of that. I do not doubt that the fresh thinking that my right honourable friend brings to this will go some way towards exploring each of the elements that any potential solution is composed of.
As to whether the historical institutional abuse legislation will be in the Queen’s Speech, I bloody hope so, but I cannot commit to that. However, I can say that my right honourable friend has said that he will do all he can to ensure that it is there. I think that it should be there and that we should deliver against it.
I think that I have done it—we are now there. I thank noble Lords very much. I hope that these reports have been useful and that the next set will be as useful.
Report Pursuant to Section 3(14) of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Duncan of Springbank
Moved by
That this House takes note of Report Pursuant to Section 3(14) of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019.
Report Pursuant to Section 3(13) of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Duncan of Springbank
Moved by
That this House takes note of Report Pursuant to Section 3(13) of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019.
Report Pursuant to Section 3(12) of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Duncan of Springbank
Moved by
That this House takes note of Report Pursuant to Section 3(12) of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019.
Report Pursuant to Section 3(11) of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Duncan of Springbank
Moved by
That this House takes note of Report Pursuant to Section 3(11) of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019.
Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen (Con)
My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure. Further timings will be confirmed on the annunciator.
Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration and Renewal) Bill
Royal Commission
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)
My Lords, it not being convenient for Her Majesty personally to be present here this day, she has been pleased to cause a Commission under the Great Seal to be prepared for proroguing this present Parliament.
Royal Assent
Prorogation: Her Majesty’s Speech
(5 years, 2 months ago)
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)
My Lords and Members of the House of Commons, by virtue of Her Majesty’s Commission which has now been read, we do, in Her Majesty’s name, and in obedience to Her Majesty’s Commands, prorogue this Parliament to the 14th day of October, to be then here holden, and this Parliament is accordingly prorogued to Monday, the 14th day of October.