Draft Statutory Auditors, Third Country Auditors and International Accounting Standards (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Peter Grant Excerpts

Monday 9th September 2019 General Committees

[Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)]

I am pleased to make a brief contribution. In the Chamber, several hon. Members are still paying tribute to the Speaker; shortly, there will be an application for an emergency debate to force the Government to come clean about what on earth is going on with Prorogation and much else; later, there will be another attempt to force a general election. In Westminster Hall, our colleagues are debating a petition that was possibly the quickest ever to reach more than 1 million signatures. We—the lucky few—are here talking about the Statutory Auditors, Third Country Auditors and International Accounting Standards (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019. These regulations will not be the news headlines tonight, but perhaps they should be.

If we get this wrong—I think the Government are still getting it wrong on their second attempt—the consequences will be catastrophic for businesses, homes, jobs and the suppliers of big companies. That is why it is important for us to get it right this time. Part of the reason that we are discussing these regulations is that we did not get them right last time, because everything had to be done in such a panic-stricken rush that they were not as watertight as legislation needs to be. We should have been out of the European Union five months ago. We would have been out six months ago without a deal, if some hon. Members on the Government Benches had had their way. Even on such fundamental questions as who regulates those who regulate the conduct and misconduct of multinational businesses, however, we have still not got it right.

As the hon. Member for Sefton Central mentioned, auditors tend to be anonymous most of the time, but when we look at the causes of almost all the huge corporate failures, of which Carillion is perhaps the most recent mega-failure, there are always big questions to be asked about why the auditors did not do something and how they could not have noticed. I should mention that although I am a qualified member of the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy, which may be why I was given the privilege of coming here this afternoon, I am not qualified to conduct statutory company audits, so I do not have an interest to declare.

As well as the questions that always come up about what the auditors were doing, the inquiry almost always concludes, although it is not inevitable, that the auditors did not break any rules at the time. We have had to completely review—realign, reset and turn inside out—the structure of the institutions that regulate statutory auditors and their profession a number of times. Try as we might, we will always struggle to keep up with the multinational chancers who look for every minor loophole in any regulation to allow their misconduct to go undetected for as long as possible—and often unpunished forever.

It is therefore important to get it right this time. The hon. Member for Sefton Central highlighted some of the concerns. When there are a lot of statutory instruments to get through, there is a danger that among some relatively minor consequential technical stuff that nobody could object to, significant changes to Government policy and to legislation are slipped in, in terms that should be brought as specific items for the whole House to consider, rather than in Committee on the upper corridors of the House of Commons on a wet Monday afternoon. I understand that quite a lot of what is in the regulations needed to be put in there, but the Committee needs to say to the Government that it cannot accept the regulations as they are.

[Luke Graham (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Con)]

I am a member of the Chartered Institute of Management Accountants. I am on the Committee and I am happy to dig into the detail, but I am not getting detail from Opposition Members, although I am hearing opposition from them. The hon. Gentleman says that there are things in the regulations to be worried about; perhaps he could outline them for us, as is the purpose of the Committee, point by point and subsection by subsection. I am happy to sit here and go through it. We have other business in the House of Commons, but as he rightly points out, this is an enormously important issue for the whole United Kingdom—it applies to the whole United Kingdom—for my constituents and for the businesses they are in. I ask him to please outline the details, so we can go through them together in a cross-party way.

[Peter Grant]

The hon. Gentleman agrees with some of the points I am making. As he helpfully points out, if Government Members were all that interested in going through the regulations in fine detail, perhaps they should have asked professionals in the various accounting and auditing institutions before the Committee. I have no doubt that Government Members will rise to speak in support of the regulations. When they do so, perhaps they will tell the Committee what could have gone disastrously wrong if they had taken the time to get the policy right on their third attempt, and asked the statutory accounting and audit bodies what the regulations would do.

[Mrs Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)]

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could help me by telling us, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ochil and South Perthshire asked him to do, which specific parts of the regulations he objects to.

[Peter Grant]

It has already been pointed out. As I said, if there has not been consultation with the bodies whose purpose it is to regulate the profession, why would the Government ask a group of lay people to agree the regulations?

[Mrs Murray]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Peter Grant]

No, I will not give way again. The hon. Lady will get a chance to speak if she wishes. I would be interested to know why the Government did not have that consultation. Why are they making significant changes to policy during a process that the House agreed could be used to make technical, consequential, minor and non-controversial changes, of which there would need to be millions to get us even vaguely ready for 31 October? Why are they trying to put in much more significant and substantive changes that should have been tested on the Floor of the House before they passed into law?

[Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Peter Grant]

I can see that lots of Members want to speak, so perhaps the best thing is for me to sit down and give them a chance to do so.

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I thank the hon. Member for Sefton Central for his comments, but I must pick him up on one point. He questioned whether the Government respect democracy. We have sat across from each other numerous times in Committees this year, and I point out to him that respecting democracy is exactly what we are doing. The regulations ensure we are fit and ready for when we exit the European Union. That is respecting democracy and the 2016 democratic vote. I need to point that out, and it is exactly why my Department has been doing the work that is required for us to ensure that we are fit and ready to leave with or without a deal.

I remind the Committee that the regulations are part of what will enable us to ensure that the EU retained law that comes into UK law is fit and proper for when we leave the European Union. We are ensuring that we can communicate that to business, and that the current laws will continue to operate correctly in the UK. As the hon. Member for Glenrothes pointed out, the limitations in the withdrawal agreement set out what the Government can do when bringing secondary legislation through the House. He will note that the only change in the regulations is to ensure the smooth and effective running of regulatory systems when we leave.

Members also commented on the quality of audit and on their concerns about the performance of some UK companies. As the hon. Member for Sefton Central will know, we had the Sir John Kingman review of the Financial Reporting Council, and the Government are working through that and consulting where possible to make modifications and changes within the FRC. That ongoing piece of work by Government is not necessarily completely related to these regulations.

The hon. Gentleman will know that the IFRS is a high-quality, internationally accepted and supported set of financial reporting standards that is regarded as a benchmark throughout the world by listed companies.

[Peter Grant]

The Minister seems, rightly, to be recognising the importance of that organisation of experts. Why will the Government not listen to other organisations of experts in their consideration of the Brexit proposals?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

I am here to speak to the regulations that are in front of us. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the experts in the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, as well as our stakeholders and partners across the sectors, have been spoken to. I challenge him to name the organisations that I have ignored or chosen not to speak to.

[Peter Grant]

The Minister will be aware that there are six recognised chartered accounting bodies in the United Kingdom. Can she name the ones that were consulted over these regulations, or is she saying that those organisations are not experts?

[Kelly Tolhurst]

As part of our ongoing engagement with stakeholders across all the Department’s responsibilities, we have regular dialogue with those organisations, whether it be on this statutory instrument or on any of the Department’s other business.