Live Debate: Commons Chamber

Commons Chamber

Monday 8th December 2025

(began 1 hour, 16 minutes ago)

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14:33

Rt Hon Pat McFadden MP, The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Wolverhampton South East, Labour)

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Order, Order, order Order, order we Order, order we start Order, order we start with questions. Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. Sarah Bool.

14:34

Q1. What discussions he has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the potential impact of future welfare spending on the economy. (906748)

Question number one, Mr. Speaker. >> Question number one, Mr. Speaker. >> With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to answer questions one and 21 together. We questions one and 21 together. We inherited a welfare system from the party opposite, which forced too many people out of work onto long term benefits while leaving millions of children in poverty. We millions of children in poverty. We have begun to address that through reforms to universal credit, increased employment support, more increased employment support, more help for children in poverty and now a youth guarantee to offer work and training to young people who and training to young people who are unemployed.

14:34

Rt Hon Pat McFadden MP, The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Wolverhampton South East, Labour)

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South Ribble thank you, Mr. Speaker. The oldest law in economics is if you tax something more, you get less of it. The inverse is also true. If you subsidise something more, you get more of it. Why does this government believe that subsidising unemployment through huge increases unemployment through huge increases to the welfare bill won't lead to more unemployment? So will the Minister accept that these changes Minister accept that these changes disincentivize work, and tell the House how much of this Budget is expected to increase unemployment by.

14:35

Sarah Bool MP (South Northamptonshire, Conservative)

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So say. education, employment or training grow year by year and do nothing grow year by year and do nothing about it. And she will find that the OBR projected at the Budget a couple of weeks ago, that the couple of weeks ago, that the levels of people in employment would rise in every year of the forecast.

14:35

Rt Hon Pat McFadden MP, The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Wolverhampton South East, Labour)

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Mid Bedfordshire.

14:35

Mr Peter Bedford MP (Mid Leicestershire, Conservative)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In their first Budget, we saw the government hike taxes on employers, leading to a sustained increase in a sustained increase in unemployment. Earlier this year, we saw a botched attempt to reform welfare, which is now going to cost welfare, which is now going to cost us more in welfare Bill. And in the Chancellor's nightmare before Christmas Budget, she hammered hard working families with yet more tax rises. Why does the government loathe aspiration and hard work in favour of an economy based on welfare and state dependency? Yeah.

14:35

Rt Hon Pat McFadden MP, The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Wolverhampton South East, Labour)

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So. >> Mr. Speaker, the hon. Gentleman will find that the welfare Budget rose by three times as a proportion of GDP than is projected to rise of GDP than is projected to rise under this government. We have begun to change through the reforms to Universal Credit, which are more to Universal Credit, which are more change in that system than his party introduced in many years, and critically important support for both the long term sick and disabled and the young unemployed.

14:36

Lauren Edwards MP (Rochester and Strood, Labour)

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Lauren Edwards thank you, Mr. Speaker. There are around 600 young people in Rochester and Strood who people in Rochester and Strood who are claiming unemployment benefits, and many more who were NEETs are not known to the Department for Work and Pensions. Does the Minister agree with me that the best way to improve their futures and reduce the welfare bill in the long term is through targeted support programmes like the Youth Guarantee, that will get them into good, stable jobs and off benefits here.

14:36

Rt Hon Pat McFadden MP, The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Wolverhampton South East, Labour)

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Jo Stevens Mr. speaker, we have a very different approach to the a very different approach to the issue of NEETs from the party opposite. We're not going to sit and look at the graph rise year by year without offering young people hope and aspiration for the future. That is why we brought forward a package with £800 million of backing which will offer training or work to the young unemployed and make sure that they have options in life rather than a life on benefits.

14:37

Neil Duncan-Jordan Mr. speaker, I welcome the. on Friday, and I wonder if the Secretary of State will outline what more needs to be done to end

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what more needs to be done to end child poverty for good. Mr. speaker. Child poverty strategy that we published on Friday is estimated to lift more than half a million children out of poverty by the end of this parliament, and critically, most of the children living in houses in poverty are living in a household where someone works. So this issue of setting up the working against the non-working is completely contrary to the facts when it comes to child poverty.

to child poverty.

14:37

Rt Hon Pat McFadden MP, The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Wolverhampton South East, Labour)

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Helen Whately Under-Secretary of State. last month, the Chancellor put up taxes to spend 16 billion more on

14:38

Helen Whately MP (Faversham and Mid Kent, Conservative)

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welfare. They chose to make working people worse off to spend more on benefits. The sickness benefit bill benefits. The sickness benefit bill is now set to skyrocket over £100 billion by the end of this decade. billion by the end of this decade. The Secretary of State likes to blame us, but his predecessor cancelled our reforms and Labour backbenchers stymied theirs. Working people are saying to me, Working people are saying to me, why bother? I'll be better off on benefits and the country cannot afford this.

He must know this. The Secretary of State. No fool. When is he going to come up with some welfare savings?

14:38

Rt Hon Pat McFadden MP, The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Wolverhampton South East, Labour)

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Mr. speaker, the party opposite zeal for change is very touching. zeal for change is very touching. It is just a pity that they only discovered it the day they stopped having any responsibility for running the welfare system. Let me remind her. This is the system they created. These are the gateways to benefits that they created. The reform they put forward was struck down by the courts. And the incentives in the system that she attacks are the ones that they legislated for. Now we have begun to change the system with the first change in incentives in Universal Credit for years, with more support for the long term sick and disabled, and with a youth guarantee that offers hope where previously there was only neglect.

14:39

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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Harriet Cross. Please, Mr. Speaker. >> With permission, Mr. Speaker, I would like to group questions two and 22. I'm sure that the hon. Lady will be pleased to know that over 329,000 more people are in work this year. The economically active working age population has reached a record high of 34.3 million. However, the unemployment level has increased by 282,000 over the year, and these figures show why we must continue supporting people into work with our Get Britain working plan, which includes creating a new jobs and careers service, tackling economic inactivity due to ill health and delivering our youth guarantee.

14:40

Harriet Cross MP (Gordon and Buchan, Conservative)

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Ross. Minister and the rest of the frontbench team know that we are seeing huge redundancies and mass unemployment within the oil and gas unemployment within the oil and gas sector increasing every week. When did the DWP team, any of the frontbench, last meet with the oil frontbench, last meet with the oil and gas sector to discuss this?

14:40

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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Mr. know, but I joined the team in September, so I will have to find out. And I'm very happy to write to her about when the last meeting was in that area.

14:40

Peter Fortune MP (Bromley and Biggin Hill, Conservative)

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So thank you, Mr. Speaker. I >> So thank you, Mr. Speaker. I recently heard from Bill Pereira, who runs a franchise of McDonald's in my constituency of Bromley and Biggin Hill. He runs nine Biggin Hill. He runs nine restaurants, employs nearly 800 people, 70% of whom are aged 16 to 24. Now he wants to increase this pathway, this opportunity into employment for young people. But he's finding it increasingly difficult because of the increased National Insurance contributions. Does the Minister agree with me that one way to reduce unemployment would be to reverse this disastrous policy?

14:41

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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Minister. >> Minister. >> Well, the hon. Gentleman will know that for the under 21 seconds, there isn't National Insurance contributions that are payable by an employer. I fully recognise that McDonald's provide good quality work for young people, often their entry into the workplace, and I'm very keen to work alongside employers. That's why we're looking at the jobs and careers service, and how best we can engage with employers to ensure that they have the pipeline of young people who are ready to work and can get into those jobs.

That the gentleman that the hon. Gentleman just referred to at McDonald's is looking for.

14:41

Sonia Kumar MP (Dudley, Labour)

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Luke Myer Mr Speaker. million investment to help young people into work in Dudley 1 in 5 school leavers, the highest proportion in the country, are not in education, employment or training. Will my right hon. Friend guarantee that this funding prioritise areas with the greatest need, including Dudley? And will he commit to visiting my constituency?

14:42

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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Minister. >> Minister. >> Can I welcome the question from my hon. Friend and it's absolutely my hon. Friend and it's absolutely a matter of inequality. The issue of NEETs and the numbers that have grown over time. I mean, the previous government failed to tackle this issue. The numbers have gone up and up under the previous government. This government is going to do something because this is about opportunity for young people. It's about our economic future. And we cannot have nearly a million young people not in employment, education or training.

14:42

Mr Jonathan Brash MP (Hartlepool, Labour)

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Jonathan Brash. election, the number of people claiming Universal Credit in my constituency of Hartlepool has fallen by 7.3%. Does the Minister agree with me that central to this government's mission of getting people back into work, it must reach every part of the country, including those areas that have been let down for far too long. Yes, Minister.

14:43

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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My hon. Friend is exactly right. And at the Mayor's Council on And at the Mayor's Council on Thursday, we were discussing this very point about making sure that all parts of the country benefit from employment opportunities for their local people.

14:43

Helen Whately MP (Faversham and Mid Kent, Conservative)

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Helen Whately the Secretary of State. State. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was sorry the Secretary of State couldn't answer. My hon. Friend for South Northamptonshire question earlier. Fortunately, there are people who can help. For instance, UK hospitality has told us that 100,000 people are going to lose their jobs because of the Budget, on top of the 150,000 jobs already lost since they came to power. At this rate, there will be queues forming outside Jobcentres. Can she tell me what preparations the government is making to cope with the influx of benefit claimants from all these job losses? And could I just say gently to the

14:43

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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Shadow Secretary of State that she seems to be suffering from amnesia because under the previous because under the previous government, we know that the number of NEETs increased by 50% in the of NEETs increased by 50% in the past. In the last four years of the previous government. This government is the one that is going to do something about needs. We to do something about needs. We have our youth guarantee. We have our commitment to those who have been out of work for 18 months or been out of work for 18 months or more for a subsidised job opportunity.

This is the government that is going to tackle the NEETs problem.

14:44

Helen Whately MP (Faversham and Mid Kent, Conservative)

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Helen Whately. Thank you. >> Mr. Speaker. Businesses are cutting jobs at the fastest rate since the pandemic. Unemployment has gone up every month under them, but clearly they are not ready to deal with the consequences. The number of job centre work coaches is actually down since they took over. No doubt she will proudly tell us that they've just announced millions of pounds of spending on government created jobs for young people, but can I ask her to reflect a moment after hiking taxes on businesses so they can't afford to employ young people? They're then spending a load of that tax on state subsidised jobs for the same young people.

Some people are calling this the economics of the madhouse. I simply call it labour economics. Doesn't she agree that the government should get out of the way and reduce the burden on businesses so they, the businesses can create jobs, opportunities and economic growth?

14:45

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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Minister. >> Minister. >> Of course we want employers and businesses to create jobs. But again, can I just reiterate, again, can I just reiterate, because I'm not sure the Secretary of Shadow Secretary of State heard my answer to one of her colleagues earlier on. For the under 21 seconds, there are no National Insurance contributions that are payable by an employer. And also, if I refer to my first answer, which is there are over 329,000 more people in work this year.

14:46

Rt Hon Pat McFadden MP, The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Wolverhampton South East, Labour)

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Blake Stephenson three Mr Speaker. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When this government came to power, we inherited a situation in which almost a million young people were not in education, employment or training. As we have said. That was a number that went up 50% in the last few years of the party opposite's time in government. They did nothing about it. That is why we are acting and in this Budget announced a youth guarantee with £820 million of investment to offer hope.

Where previously there was only Tory neglect.

14:46

Blake Stephenson MP (Mid Bedfordshire, Conservative)

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Blake Stephenson around 1200 >> Blake Stephenson around 1200 young people in Mid Bedfordshire and not in employment, education or training, with two jobs destroying training, with two jobs destroying budgets and the unemployment rate bill on the horizon. Does the Minister really understand the concerns of my constituents, that this government is simply making it so much harder for young people to ladder?

14:46

Rt Hon Pat McFadden MP, The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Wolverhampton South East, Labour)

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Mr. speaker, if he cared about young people and opportunity, he young people and opportunity, he might regret the fact that there was a 40% decline in young people's apprenticeships when his party were apprenticeships when his party were in power over the last decade or so, as well as the Youth Guarantee. We have brought forward £725 million more investment in apprenticeships, again to provide hope where there was previously Tory neglect.

14:47

Ms Polly Billington MP (East Thanet, Labour)

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Polly Billington. Thank you. >> Mr. Speaker. I welcome the commitment to free apprenticeships for small and medium sized enterprises if they take on under enterprises if they take on under 25 that was announced in the Budget and also the commitment to apprenticeships and hospitality. Could my hon. Friend confirm that there will be a focus on coastal communities like East Thanet in these programmes? Because there is a disproportionate number of young people written off by the Tories over the last 14 years, and a significant number of small and medium sized hospitality businesses in particular, desperate to hire local talent.

14:47

Rt Hon Pat McFadden MP, The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Wolverhampton South East, Labour)

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Mr. speaker, my hon. Friend is absolutely right to point out that this issue of youth opportunity is this issue of youth opportunity is also an issue of inequality, and that the rate of NEETs is often highest, where deprivation is highest and where inequality is highest. That is why it is so essential that we have an active policy through the Youth Guarantee, to offer training and work experience, subsidised employment and more apprenticeships for young people.

14:48

Rebecca Smith MP (South West Devon, Conservative)

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Mr. Rebecca Smith RCN. >> Mr. Rebecca Smith RCN. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Since the Chancellor delivered her Budget, it has come to light that benefits have been extended for the parents have been extended for the parents of teenagers with disabilities or an illness. Now, whilst on the face of it, this may seem kind and compassionate, it is also contradictory. Parents and carers are no longer required to ensure their teenager is attending an educational setting at all, to receive additional child benefit.

It means that young people living with neurodivergent conditions, such as ADHD, are being enabled to stay at home and out of education, training or even work. This flies directly in the face of the Prime Minister's words after the Budget. If you're not given the support you need, or you are simply written off because you're neurodivergent or disabled, then it can trap you in a cycle of worklessness and dependency for decades. So, Mr. Speaker, I ask the Secretary of State, how does extending access to benefits for conditions like ADHD and teenagers, before coming up with a plan to ensure young people remain in full time education and training, deliver on the Prime Minister's point.

14:49

Rt Hon Pat McFadden MP, The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Wolverhampton South East, Labour)

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Mr. speaker, I hate to sound >> Mr. speaker, I hate to sound repetitive, but the rates of absence from school rocketed when they were in power. And again, this is something we have begun to address because children cannot achieve unless they are attending school. That is why absence from school really matters and why my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for education, has rightly made attendance such a high priority for her and her department.

14:49

Rt Hon Sir Stephen Timms MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (East Ham, Labour)

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Shaun Davies, sir. Mr. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> Changes announced at the Budget will improve value for money for taxpayers, while ensuring that the Motability scheme continues to

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Motability scheme continues to provide outstanding support for disabled people. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The mobility scheme stems from the vital principle that people with disabilities should be able to live a dignified and independent life. I

14:49

Shaun Davies MP (Telford, Labour)

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have heard from several constituents about how accessible cars can help them into work and into healthcare, which I welcome. into healthcare, which I welcome. But I have also heard from a number of people in my constituency about those with questionable conditions those with questionable conditions being provided cars, which quite simply the average working family could not afford. And in many cases, could not afford. And in many cases, those cars not even made in Britain. Does the Minister agree with me to keep faith and confidence in the scheme? It's really important that the scheme addresses real need across the country and in my constituency.

And will he meet with me to discuss some of the extreme cases I'm hearing about in Telford?

14:50

Rt Hon Sir Stephen Timms MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (East Ham, Labour)

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What I do agree with my hon. Friend and I'd be very happy to meet him. It is a very important meet him. It is a very important scheme. It does a very important job. Some tax reliefs will be removed in July. Existing leases won't be affected, nor will wheelchair adapted vehicles. And there will still be vehicles with no upfront payment. Affordable solely with the Pip mobility component. So the scheme will continue to do a great job, but taxpayers.

14:51

John Milne MP (Horsham, Liberal Democrat)

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John Milne Mr. Speaker. millions are getting benefits for anxiety or ADHD, along with a free Motability car. Now, that's clearly Motability car. Now, that's clearly nonsense, because only 200,000 claimants at most would be eligible to apply in the first place, and many of those also have a physical disability, which is the real reason for the car. So would the Minister agree that this must rank as one of the least accurate claims ever made by a politician, despite the strongest competition?

14:51

Rt Hon Sir Stephen Timms MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (East Ham, Labour)

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Minister. misleading. But he's right to point out. I mean, her party introduced Pip with the current criteria in 2013. They then had 11 years to change it if they thought it was necessary and they did absolutely nothing. My review will look at the eligibility criteria for the mobility component of Pip.

14:51

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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Steve Race. Thank you. Question number five. >> Mr. Speaker. >> I would like to group questions at five and 18. And can I thank my hon. Friend, for this question. At hon. Friend, for this question. At the Autumn Budget, we built on the substantial action that we have already taken to tackle child poverty and announce the removal of the two child limit, which will lift 450,000 children out of poverty by 2030. This rises to 550,000, alongside other measures such as the expansion of free school meals set out in our Child Poverty Strategy, which was published on Friday, and the Secretary of State for education will be making an oral statement this afternoon.

14:52

Steve Race MP (Exeter, Labour)

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Steve Race, thank you. roundtables with residents in Exeter to discuss child poverty, which some in some of our neighbourhoods runs as high as 30%. neighbourhoods runs as high as 30%. All the evidence suggests that ingrained poverty across a wide range of policy areas. So I was delighted with the publication of the Child Poverty Strategy and in fact, the introduction of the new measure of material poverty as well. Can she set out what this will mean for integrated policy development across government, so we can end child poverty for good?

14:53

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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Can I commend my hon. Friend for his interest in this area? And deep material poverty is where families material poverty is where families lack basic essentials, such as a warm home and healthy food. Families who cannot afford four or more of the 13 essential items are judged to be in deep material poverty, and there are 2 million children are in deep material poverty today. Over the course of the ten year strategy, these items and thresholds that have been identified will not change, but they will allow us to be able to measure a broader set of measures when we are measuring our success in tackling child poverty.

14:53

Emma Foody MP (Cramlington and Killingworth, Labour )

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Emma Foody. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Child poverty in the North East reached shameful levels under the previous conservative government, previous conservative government, damaging the life chances of children and young people. Now, as the Minister has set out, this government is turning the tide with not only the removal of the two child cap, but the expansion of free school meals and introduction of breakfast clubs. Lifting 550,000 children out of poverty. But can the Minister set out how the Child Poverty Taskforce will work with the North East Child Poverty Reduction Unit to make sure that we in the North East, we can go even further.

14:54

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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Minister. >> Minister. >> Well, again, can I thank my hon. Friend for her interest in in this area. And I spoke with the North area. And I spoke with the North East Mayor, Kim McGuinness, on Thursday at the Mayors Council about the excellent work that she's already undertaking through the child Poverty Reduction Unit that she's created. Now the strategy has been published, we will continue to work with mayors and local authorities, the public and private sector and civil society through a dedicated team in government with a strong ministerial oversight to deliver on tackling child poverty Kingdom.

Speaker.

14:54

Tom Gordon MP (Harrogate and Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat)

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One of the things that really concerns me is I've met with a number of parents who've had to number of parents who've had to leave work because of the unmet need of their children with Senedd, what we're then seeing is children who are already really vulnerable are ending up being forced into poverty because there's not the support from schools and local authorities. So what conversations have the Minister had about assessing the impact of Senedd and parents?

14:55

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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Minister. it's a very important one, and the government is looking at the whole issue of Senedd. I've been in the House long enough to know that the current regime that's operating, which is not working for parents and children, was introduced by the previous government. I think if I recall, it was the conservative government rather than the coalition one. But clearly we need to look at how we can get a system that works and supports families and children and helps parents get

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get back into work. Joshua Reynolds thank you. To the government, a year and a

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To the government, a year and a half to confirm they were going to scrap the two child benefit cap. So in that time, what estimate has the

14:55

Mr Joshua Reynolds MP (Maidenhead, Liberal Democrat)

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in that time, what estimate has the Minister made of the number of children who were unnecessarily kept in poverty because of it? >> Mr.

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Well, I think it's absolutely right and proper that this government had the Child Poverty Task Force to look at, not just

14:55

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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Task Force to look at, not just this issue around the two child limit, which is obviously a very important one, but all the other measures that we need to have in place to support families. And as the employment Minister, I'm particularly pleased that we've got measures within the strategy around

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helping parents into work. Around. Sorry, sorry about this. I don't want to complete I don't want to complete conversation going on across the chair, Mr. jock, you're better than that. And there's been a whip.

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You're meant to set examples, not you. I was saying that it's important that the measures within the child that the measures within the child poverty strategy, which will help around childcare in particular, are there. And it's not just that we've there. And it's not just that we've got the free school meals, we've got the breakfast clubs, we've got the the issues around temporary accommodation. And I think the statistic perhaps the hon. Gentleman wants me to give is that I understand that 100 children a week were pushed into child poverty through the child, the two child limit that the previous government number.

14:56

Torsten Bell MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Swansea West, Labour)

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Six, Mr. speaker. >> Six, Mr. speaker. >> Mr. Thank you. >> Mr. Speaker. To tackle pensioner poverty, we are both increasing the state pension and running the biggest ever pension credit take up campaign, raising the new state pension in line with the triple lock over this Parliament is set to see an increase by over £2,000 a year, while 60,000 extra pension credit awards were made in the year to July compared to the previous 12 months.

14:57

Gill Furniss MP (Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough, Labour)

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A quarter of a million pensioners. >> Received compensation from the PPF and FAS, but those who accrued their income before 1997 have suffered a real terms cut of 24% in suffered a real terms cut of 24% in the past five years alone. I welcome the Chancellor's commitment to provide indexation on these accruals moving forwards, but many of those who will benefit from this are elderly and in his health. Can the Minister confirm that he will implement this much welcome change as quickly as possible, Minister?

14:57

Torsten Bell MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Swansea West, Labour)

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Well, I thank my hon. Friend for that important question. I, like that important question. I, like her, have met and listened to lots of those affected by the lack of indexation on pre 97 accruals within the PPF and the FAS. I can assure her that assuming that the Bill receives Royal Assent, that the uprating will take place at the next PPF uprating, that means January 2027. On current estimates.

14:58

Rt Hon Sir Edward Leigh MP (Gainsborough, Conservative)

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Father of the House Edward Leigh. Well, I'm very grateful to the Minister to receive the triple lock, but it's not an effective way of tackling pensioner poverty. It's tackling pensioner poverty. It's also bankrupting the country. I'm sorry not to be part of political, but can we not have some consensus between the parties that we should phase out the triple lock? Concentrate resources on pensioners in real poverty, and also have an agreement on dealing with benefits, generally to get people back into work.

We should work together. Minister.

14:58

Torsten Bell MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Swansea West, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm always keen to work together with the the Father of the House. I mean, he mentioned the triple lock. he mentioned the triple lock. That's by far not the only thing we're doing to tackle pensioner poverty. There were 900,000 pensioners who were eligible for Pension Credit under the Conservatives, but were not claiming. And that's why we brought forward the most the biggest campaign on take up ever seen. The marketing campaign this year will be running from September to the end of the financial year, where we're carrying out research into what works to encourage take up of Pension Credit.

And we're stepping up data sharing across departments, including between HMRC and DWP Anna Dixon.

14:59

Rt Hon Sir Stephen Timms MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (East Ham, Labour)

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Question seven. >> Mr. Speaker. >> Mr. Mr Speaker listed an outstanding forensic job in getting to the bottom of the Carer's Allowance overpayment problems. We've accepted or partially accepted 38 of her 40 recommendations. The department will reassess overpayments incurred between 2015 and last summer, where fluctuating earnings were an issue, and will set out detailed plans for this in the new year.

14:59

Anna Dixon MP (Shipley, Labour)

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Anna Dixon. the last decade, around 185,000 unpaid family carers have been pursued by the DWP to return overpayments in their Carer's Allowance through no fault of their own. Many working carers have faced bills that have run often into the thousands of pounds. It is incredibly positive that after years of inaction from.

15:00

Rt Hon Sir Stephen Timms MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (East Ham, Labour)

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The Tories that this government has acted. Does the Minister share my hope that trust might now be my hope that trust might now be rebuilt between the state and the near 6 million unpaid family carers in this country?

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in this country? Well, my hon. Friend is a great campaigner for carers on this issue and others. She's absolutely right. This was a very serious problem that was ignored for ten years, despite there being quite a lot of publicity about it. I do hope, as she says, that trust will now be rebuilt as we fix these problems in the coming months.

15:00

Tim Farron MP (Westmorland and Lonsdale, Liberal Democrat)

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I got it followed by Steve Darling Tim Farron. >> You, Mr. Speaker. Cumbria has a much average, much higher than average number of of carers, unpaid carers, largely due to the much carers, largely due to the much larger average number of people who are older, exacerbated by, of course, rural isolation. It is a community, of course, where there is a significant amount of seasonal and variable work that is available. So what is the Minister doing to ensure that carers could take flexible, seasonal work without fear of losing all support?

15:01

Rt Hon Sir Stephen Timms MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (East Ham, Labour)

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Yes. >> Mr. >> Well, he will know that the Carer's Allowance has an earnings threshold which we have very significantly increased. It's the significantly increased. It's the biggest increase they've ever been in the earnings threshold. We're also looking, in the longer term, introducing a taper to Carer's Allowance instead of the cliff edge earnings threshold that's there at the moment. Now that won't be a quick fix. But once that is in place, I think that will help with the confirm that he's raising.

15:01

Steve Darling MP (Torbay, Liberal Democrat)

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Spokesperson Steve Darling. >> Spokesperson Steve Darling. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And the Liberal Democrats welcome the fact that the government have accepted that the government have accepted the findings of the safety review into Carer's Allowance overpayments. However, what assurances can the Minister give that the government will stop hounding carers with overpayments for for these payments back? And will the government also apologise, Minister?

15:02

Rt Hon Sir Stephen Timms MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (East Ham, Labour)

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Well, I'm very sorry about what >> Well, I'm very sorry about what happened to many carers. For example, there were alerts coming into the department from HMRC. Only about half of them were checked and so overpayments which the department had been notified of carried on for months and months and months. Of course, genuine overpayments do still need recovery. That work will continue and if people do run into difficulties with that, then it's always worth talking to. The DWP debt management service Rosie Duffield.

15:02

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Question eight Please, Minister. eight Please, Minister. >> I think well, I want to first of all, thank the hon. Lady for this all, thank the hon. Lady for this question. It's one like her that I take a deep interest in work. Coaches in job centres are trained to recognise a wide range of risks and if they identify safeguarding concerns, including a risk of commercial sexual exploitation, then action is taken to escalate these to the appropriate agencies. The DWP does not accept jobs relating to sexual services or those seeking employees for jobs of a sexual nature.

15:03

Rosie Duffield MP (Canterbury, Independent)

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Rosie Duffield. >> Thank you. Commercial sexual exploitation is the exchange of money, goods or services in return for sex acts. It's a form of for sex acts. It's a form of violence against women and inquiries by the APPG on Commercial Sexual Exploitation have revealed it's now taking place on an industrial scale, with the growth and mainstreaming of sites like OnlyFans and online brothels like Vivastreet. Does the Minister agree that we should urgently outlaw pimping websites and force all pornography websites to verify the age and ongoing consent of everyone featured on their platform as amendments currently tabled to the Crime and Policing Bill propose.

15:03

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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Mr. will appreciate that. She's raising a number of issues which are outside my role as the Employment Minister, but I will certainly raise these with my ministerial colleagues in the relevant departments. She may, however, be interested in relation to the the written ministerial statement that was tabled today on safeguarding for vulnerable claimants in the DWP, setting out the work, which is already underway, to deliver on this important area.

15:04

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Damian Hinds number nine. >> Minister. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Skills England is playing a central role in delivering the government's plan for Change and Industrial Strategy. It is the authoritative voice on skills needs informing the Post-16 Education and Skills White Paper, supporting the delivery of sector skills packages in digital AI, engineering, construction and defence and informing decision making through the Labour Market Evidence Group's work on migration.

15:04

Rt Hon Damian Hinds MP (East Hampshire, Conservative)

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Damian Hinds. >> Damian Hinds. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> It really isn't ideal to have the body that is responsible for the body that is responsible for upholding standards for qualifications inside a government department, which will be judged on how many people it gets through, and passing those qualifications. It was an idea when it was in the DfE. It's even less ideal now. It's in the DWP. So will the Minister commit that once Skills England is up and running, he will make it an independent body, independent from government, with a guaranteed voice for industry, and set that out in statute.

15:05

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Minister. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I appreciate the point that the right hon. Gentleman is making. Clearly, hon. Gentleman is making. Clearly, we want to make sure that Skills England is set up to be successful and to have a real impact in delivering the skills that we need now in the workforce and into the future. But what I am very happy to commit to today is to set up a meeting for the right hon. Gentleman, should he so wish, with the chair of the board of Skills England, Phil Smith, to discuss his concerns directly.

15:05

Gareth Snell MP (Stoke-on-Trent Central, Labour )

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Presnell. >> Presnell. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. >> Skills England has the potential to really make an impact in places to really make an impact in places like North Staffordshire, where we know there are skills that we need for the jobs of tomorrow. But too often those programs that are piloted are done through mayoral combined authorities, and we're a long way from that in Staffordshire. So can the Minister set out how he's going to ensure that those areas that don't have mayors on the horizon are able to access those same exciting opportunities as everywhere else?

15:06

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Yes, Minister. recognise that my hon. Friend takes a very keen interest in the delivery of these courses and various skills training sectors in his constituency. Indeed, I am writing to him today about the last question that he asked to me. He is absolutely right that we need to ensure that areas that are further away from the establishment of MCAS are not left behind. That is a valid concern that I will be certain to share with my noble

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behalf. Speaker. Question number ten.

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Minister. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And with your permission, I will answer your permission, I will answer question ten and question 17 together. We have already taken action. In October, we published action. In October, we published the Skills White paper, and we are investing £1 billion in skills packages in sectors that will packages in sectors that will create hundreds of thousands of jobs over the next five years. The Budget also set out more than £1.5 billion over the spending review period for investment in employment and skills support, including for the Youth Guarantee and apprenticeships for young people.

15:07

Michelle Scrogham MP (Barrow and Furness, Labour)

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Michelle Scrogham thank you, Mr. Speaker. After 14 years of neglect, young people in Barrow and Furness young people in Barrow and Furness are going to benefit from this government's commitment to supporting apprenticeships that will drive our local economy. Does will drive our local economy. Does the Minister agree that Labour's unprecedented investment into skills shows just how seriously this government is committed to driving opportunity in communities like mine, and agree with me that Barrow and Furness should be one of the locations for the government's new Technical Defence Technical Excellence colleges.

15:08

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will take the two questions separately, take the two questions separately, strongly agreeing with the first, because this package of investment will fund new measures to support apprenticeships for young people, including fully funding SME apprenticeships for eligible people aged 16 to 24 to boost small business starts and prioritise funding to young people starting from the next academic year. We are working with colleagues in the MoD and DfE to deliver £182 million defence skills package, aimed at harnessing the skills needed for the future and meeting the needs of people at various stages in their training and career pathways.

My hon. Friend is an exceptional champion for her community in Barrow and Furness. I perhaps won't be drawn directly on the question of the location of defence technical education colleges, but what I would say is that there is a considerable and rich expertise in Barrow, and I'm sure a college there would be hugely successful.

15:08

Perran Moon MP (Camborne and Redruth, Labour)

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Moon. >> Moon. >> Whereas, Mr. Speaker. Cornwall has been identified as a strategically important region for renewable energy and critical minerals. But currently we have a worrying shortage of places at our outstanding Fe colleges. Can the Minister reassure me that the necessary skills funding will be made available to support these growth industries in an area of high social deprivation that has been neglected by the Conservatives for 14 years?

15:09

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Mr. we published our Clean Energy Jobs Plan in October, which set out how we will deliver the pipeline of we will deliver the pipeline of skilled workers that the sector needs. And that includes five technical excellence colleges that will specialise in training skilled, clean energy workforces. As part of a £182 million investment to support engineering skills in clean energy, occupations and other priority sectors. Local skills improvement plans help to identify the key skills priorities for each area of the country, and clean energy and other green skills must be considered in the development of those plans.

15:10

Liz Jarvis MP (Eastleigh, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> Stuart, the Managing director of GW Martin, a precision engineering manufacturing firm based in my constituency, welcomes the additional support for apprentice training for small and medium sized businesses. But ask that the government ensures training providers will receive adequate funding to strengthen training available. So can the Minister assure Stuart that fantastic SMEs like GW Martin will be supported so they can employ more young people from Eastleigh and give them meaningful opportunities to start their careers?

15:10

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Mr. give the hon. Lady that clear assurance with two specific examples of the work that the government is doing. So the first was the £725 million of additional support provided for the delivery of the Growth and Skills Levy in the Budget, but also specifically on the question of the delivery of apprenticeships for small and medium sized enterprises. These will be fully funded for young people moving forward. A really crucial intervention to make sure that the funding that this government does allocate to apprenticeships tackles that problem of young people not in education, employment or training.

15:11

Sarah Dyke MP (Glastonbury and Somerton, Liberal Democrat)

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Sarah Mr Speaker, as identified in the National Food Strategy, there is a shortage of skills in there is a shortage of skills in food and farming. Liberal Democrats are proposing a farm first scheme to give young people training and the incentive they need to choose a career in farming. So will the Minister outline the steps they are taking to create the pathways that increase the number of Post-16 learners? Training in food and farming?

15:11

Andrew Western MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Stretford and Urmston, Labour)

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Minister. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Lady will recognise the significant investment that this government has put into agriculture more broadly put into agriculture more broadly since coming into office. But I am not aware of the farm first scheme to which she refers. But if she would like to write to me about it, I'd be happy to meet with her to discuss it further.

15:12

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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Monica Harding. >> Monica Harding. >> Question 11 please, Mr. Speaker. >> Minister. >> Can I thank the hon. Lady for this very important question? The government is committed to supporting those with mental health conditions, alongside those with other long term health conditions and disabilities into work. More disabled people and people with health conditions will be supported to enter and stay in work through our Pathways to Work guarantee and our Connect to Work supported employment programme.

15:12

Monica Harding MP (Esher and Walton, Liberal Democrat)

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Monica Harding. constituents in. Esher and Walton are out of work due to mental health conditions and I welcome departmental initiatives such as the Disability Employment Advisers and cross-government work through the Joint Work and Health Directorate and work well. However, fragile mental health can be picked up and supported earlier in school may also be a result of poorly identified special educational needs, which we know is at breaking point, and the current state of mental health waiting lists, which in Esher and Walton the average waits for an under 18 year old are 184 days.

So can I ask the Minister what current learnings from DWP are being fed back into DfE and Department for health to ensure that the next cohort is ready for work?

15:13

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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Well, the hon. Lady will know >> Well, the hon. Lady will know that there is already resources going into schools to provide that mental health support early on to mental health support early on to children and young people. There is also additional money going in through the investment this government is making into the NHS, which will include mental health services. But I'm pleased that the hon. Lady highlighted the range of options available to people with mental health conditions, because we know they're very diverse and there's no one thing that will support them into work and keep them in work.

We've got, as the hon. Lady said, we've got work coaches, we've got pathways to work advisers, we've got connector work, we've got employment advisers in NHS talking therapies as well. So there's a whole range of options there to make sure we can get people with mental health there.

15:13

Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )

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Chris Vince. Oh. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> I'm there, I'm there.

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I'm there, I'm there. What can I ask? What conversations has the Department had with the Department of Health and Social Care to ensure the ten and Social Care to ensure the ten year plan tackles the root cause of mental health? When I talk to constituents in my constituency of Harlow, what they tell me is they only get that mental health support when they are really facing crisis. And by the time they've got to that crisis point, they've already given up work and training.

15:14

Rt Hon Dame Diana Johnson MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham, Labour)

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Minister. >> My hon. Friend raises a really important point. And of course, we know there's already 6700 workers in the NHS providing that additional mental health support. additional mental health support. As I said, there's work going on in schools as well. Recognising the early intervention is so important. And I have also had meetings with the DHSC, particularly to look at work and how we can work together, the two departments to make sure we're providing a wraparound care to people in work.

Alongside the Charlie Maynard Ashfield review Keep Britain working, because we know people may develop health conditions and mental health conditions during the course of their life in employment, and we want to make sure they stay in employment with the right support wrapped around them.

15:15

Rt Hon Sir Stephen Timms MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (East Ham, Labour)

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Paulette Hamilton question >> Paulette Hamilton question number 12, Mr. Speaker. >> Mr. speaker, my hon. Friend just mentioned our Pathways to Work guarantee, which will offer guarantee, which will offer everybody with health impairments on out of work benefits a support conversation to work out best. Next steps, 1 to 1 caseworker support for those ready to move towards work. Specialist longer term support for those who can benefit from that, and periodic engagement for those not yet ready to move towards work.

15:15

Paulette Hamilton MP (Birmingham Erdington, Labour)

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Paulette Hamilton a constituent of mine in Birmingham Erdington of mine in Birmingham Erdington with severe health needs, recently told me that she only gained employment after she was able to employment after she was able to learn to drive and then secure a car through the Motability scheme. Can the Minister set out what further steps the department is taking to ensure that disabled people with health needs receive the support they need to gain access to work, and to take part fully in the things they enjoy? Thank you, Mr.

Speaker.

15:16

Rt Hon Sir Stephen Timms MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (East Ham, Labour)

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Minister. >> Minister. >> Well, Mr. Speaker, there is a great deal of work to be done. The disability employment gap has been disability employment gap has been stuck around 30 percentage points ever since 2010. We've talked already today about Motability. Motability is key for many disabled people to be able to get to work. And after the changes that we've spoken about next July, there will still be a wide range of vehicles for in exchange solely for mobility benefit. Access to work is also extremely important.

We consulted earlier in the year in our Green Paper on reform to access to work to help more people, support more people, and will be bringing forward proposals along those lines in the new year.

15:16

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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Vikki Slade. >> Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have been assisting several constituents who are deaf and need the support of BSL and need the support of BSL interpreters and face to face appointments, and there are only five BSL interpreters available to cover the whole of Dorset. As a result, people are waiting extremely long periods of time, both to get appointments, but also to be able to get access to help them get to work. Can the Minister explain what's being done to provide more such services?

15:17

Rt Hon Sir Stephen Timms MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (East Ham, Labour)

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Well, the hon. Lady, I'm sure, >> Well, the hon. Lady, I'm sure, will be very interested in the recent report published by the BSL advisory Group, which works with advisory Group, which works with the government, specifically on BSL, members of which I met last week. They produced a report recently on access to health and care support, specifically highlighting some of these. If you're BSL user, how do you make an appointment with a GP, for example? But the other steps that I've outlined today will be very important for deaf and disabled people, and we'll be continuing to work very closely, specifically with BSL advisory Group, on these issues.

15:17

Rt Hon Pat McFadden MP, The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Wolverhampton South East, Labour)

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We've got a topical John Slinger. >> Mr. Speaker. >> Topical one please. >> Thursday. Mr. speaker, since the last.

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Set of oral questions, we've announced £820 million of funding to offer training and work to young unemployed people through the Youth Guarantee. £725 million more in apprenticeship investment, with 50,000 more apprenticeship starts for young people. We've responded positively to the CAC review on Carer's Allowance and published our Child Poverty Strategy, which will lift more than half a million children out of poverty by the end of this Parliament.

15:18

John Slinger MP (Rugby, Labour)

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John Slinger. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I've been campaigning for a youth hub and working with officials in the DWP and local councils to try and secure a much needed youth hub in Rugby. Does my right hon. Friend agree that this service offering employment advice, wellbeing support and more would help tackle the problem of youth dependency on benefits, which is at 16% in Rugby, roughly the national average? And does he further agree that as young people would say, no cap, it's only this party that will do what's necessary to back young people.

15:19

Rt Hon Pat McFadden MP, The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Wolverhampton South East, Labour)

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So. >> So. >> Mr. Speaker, my hon. Friend is right that youth hubs can deliver vital help to get young people back on track. This is about getting the job centre out of the job centre, if you will, and making sure that we meet young people where they are in the community. We are expanding them. There will be a total of 360 around the country. Locations will be announced in due course, and I'm sure that the hon. Friend will keep campaigning for one in his area.

15:19

Mark Garnier MP (Wyre Forest, Conservative)

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So Mark Garnier Shadow Minister, thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. >> The Chancellor's Budget put a cap on salary sacrifice for pension savers at just £2,000. This was to savers at just £2,000. This was to raise an extra 4.8 billion in 2029, will affect 3.3 million savers and 290,000 employers. Mr. speaker, what research has the Pensions Minister done to both understand and quantify the negative effect this will have on pension savings? Mr.

15:20

Torsten Bell MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Swansea West, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question, because it gives me a chance to bring to the House notice chance to bring to the House notice to this, which is research published. Yes, after the general election in 2024, but commissioned under the last conservative government. What was it? Research into capping salary sacrifice, pension contributions at £2,000 so he can read? The hon. Member can read the research, published and commissioned by his own party, about putting back under control this tax relief that had got out of hand.

15:20

Mark Garnier MP (Wyre Forest, Conservative)

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Last who put it in place? It was the party opposite. But Mr. Speaker, this Mr. Speaker, this policy hits this Mr. Speaker, this policy hits the private sector disproportionately 14 times, as many people say, through salary sacrifice in the private sector as they do in the public sector. It doesn't matter whether it is kite flying about lump sum withdrawal or taxing inherited pension pots. In a week. When Labour together are canvassing Labour members about a new Labour leader, isn't it the case that the Chancellor is more interested in throwing red meat to her sad and unfortunate backbenchers, in a vain attempt to save her job than she is in the interests of savings of our hard working constituents.

15:21

Torsten Bell MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Swansea West, Labour)

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Minister. >> Well, there's nothing sad about Labour members that are watching wages rise fast under this government than they did under the party opposite. There's nothing sad party opposite. There's nothing sad about these backbenchers who are seeing the end of austerity and public services being improved right across this country.

15:21

Mohammad Yasin MP (Bedford, Labour)

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Mohammad Yasin speaker, my constituent in his mid-fifties constituent in his mid-fifties wrote to me about the flagrant and extensive age discrimination he faces looking for work, citing a faces looking for work, citing a job advert seeking applicants with under 15 years experience. His case reflects the Women and Equalities Committee's Rights of Older People report, which calls for stronger legal protection and a cross-government strategy. Age discrimination is already unlawful, so how will the Minister ensure people are properly protected?

15:21

Rt Hon Sir Stephen Timms MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (East Ham, Labour)

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Minister? >> Well, Mr. Speaker, my hon. Friend says it's against the law to impose age restrictions on jobs unless they can be objectively justified. The Equality Act 2010 provides legal redress. There's also practical help available through the Equality Advisory Support Service, and his constituents should certainly give that service a call. And we've got 50 plus champions working across the whole of our Jobcentre network.

15:22

Steve Darling MP (Torbay, Liberal Democrat)

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Come to Steve Darling. Liberal Democrat spokesperson. Disability News Service have stated that both the Treasury and the DWP have refused to clarify the £1.9 billion cuts to disability benefits set to take place over the next five years. That was quietly sneaked into the Budget the other week. Will the Minister now set the record straight and advise how this almost £2 billion cuts will occur, and what impacts they will have on people with disabilities?

15:22

Rt Hon Sir Stephen Timms MP, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (East Ham, Labour)

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Minister? >> Minister? >> Well, Mr. Speaker, I don't know what the hon. Gentleman is referring to. I'll happily look into the report that he's spoken of. There will be no changes at all to eligibility for Personal

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