House of Commons
Business before Questions
Hon. Members
Object.
To be considered on Monday 4 May.
Malvern Hills Bill [Lords]
Motion made,
That so much of the Lords Message (23 April) as relates to the Malvern Hills Bill [Lords] be now considered.
That this House concurs with the Lords in their Resolution.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)
Hon. Members
Object.
To be considered on Monday 4 May.
Cheltenham Borough Council (Markets) Bill [Lords]
Ordered,
That so much of the Lords Message (23 April) as relates to the Cheltenham Borough Council (Markets) Bill be now considered.
That the promoters of the Cheltenham Borough Council (Markets) Bill, which was originally introduced in this House on 22 January 2026, should have leave to suspend proceedings on the Bill from the day on which the current Session ends in order to proceed with it, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, according to the provisions of Standing Order 188A (Suspension of bills).—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.)
Speaker’s Statement
(3 weeks ago)
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Mr Speaker
Before we come to questions, I wish to make a short statement. Numerous right hon. and hon. Members from across the House have written to ask me to give precedence to a matter as an issue of privilege. One of those letters is from the Leader of the Opposition. The matter concerns the Prime Minister’s answers to the House about the process for the appointment of Peter Mandelson and related issues.
I think it would be helpful to the House if I explained my role in deciding whether a complaint should be put to the House. Privilege issues should only be brought to the House sparingly, and it is my duty to act as a gatekeeper to ensure that frivolous applications are not taken forward. As a gatekeeper, my role is to decide whether an hon. Member has made a case that the House itself should be able to consider, not to decide whether someone is likely to have committed a contempt. If precedence is given, the Member tables a motion for debate. At the end of that debate, the House itself takes a decision on whether the matter should be taken further.
Some may be wondering why this issue is being looked at now. To be clear, I cannot determine when an application is made—I have to consider any application when it comes to me. In this case, having taken advice, I have decided to allow the House to come to a view on whether the Committee of Privileges should look at the matter. It is not for me to make any decision or come to any view. Therefore, the Leader of the Opposition will have the opportunity to put the matter to the House tomorrow. The debate will be taken after any urgent questions and statements and any ten-minute rule Bill.
Oral Answers to Questions
(3 weeks ago)
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James MacCleary (Lewes) (LD)
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Seamus Logan (Aberdeenshire North and Moray East) (SNP)
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Torsten Bell)
The Government made their decision on this case on 29 January 2026, after giving the PHSO’s report careful consideration. The detailed reasons for our decision were set out in our response, which has been placed in the Library of the House.
James MacCleary
The Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman has recommended compensation for millions of WASPI women. In 99% of cases, PHSO recommendations are complied with, so does the Minister accept that singling out this group by not complying amounts to discrimination on the basis of sex and age? If not, what possible justification can the Minister offer?
Torsten Bell
As I have previously said to this House, it is unusual but not unprecedented for the Government to take a different view from the PHSO. That does not mean that we have not taken its report incredibly seriously—I have also met its representatives—but as I have said, we set out the detailed reasons for the decision we came to in the response we laid in the House of Commons Library on 29 January.
Jim Shannon
I ask this question on behalf of the 6,000 WASPI women in Strangford. Given that the Department’s own 2007 evaluation raised serious doubts about the effectiveness of letters to pensioners, how can the Minister justify the decision that no direct financial loss occurred when thousands of women were deprived of the 28-month notice period required to adjust their life savings and retirement plans? In the light of the Scottish Parliament’s decision to again press this issue in February, will he please do the right thing, put actions before apologies, and deliver help and support? I say that respectfully, but I do want a good answer.
Torsten Bell
The hon. Member has raised this issue repeatedly over a number of years, and I recognise that. Specifically on the issues he raises, it was the ombudsman itself, rather than the Government, that initially set out that the women affected did not suffer direct financial loss. What is sitting behind the ombudsman’s judgment saying that is that the issue facing the ombudsman was not either the original decision in 1995 to increase the state pension age or the decision to accelerate the increase by the coalition Government in 2011. The ombudsman was looking narrowly at the question of how that increase in the state pension age was communicated, and I think it is really important to clarify that distinction with our constituents. It is the latter—the communication of the state pension age—that we have discussed in this House on numerous occasions.
The hon. Member specifically raises the 2007 evidence, which showed that a minority of people read and remembered such letters. However, it showed something else quite important, which was that those with good knowledge of their state pension entitlement were most likely to read the letters. It was therefore not a good metric for assuming that the majority of those who were sent letters would have learned something from that and changed what they knew.
Seamus Logan
These women were not properly informed about changes to their state pension. So said the PHSO on 21 March 2024, just in time for the election that year, when so many Labour Members of course promised to address the issue, if elected—another shameful, broken promise. First, can I ask the Minister to explain why the last ministerial meeting with the WASPI women took place in September 2024? Secondly, can he tell the House what work has been undertaken in his Department on a properly structured compensation scheme that could be implemented when the Government decide it is time for another U-turn?
Torsten Bell
The hon. Member raises a question about what Labour Members were promising in the 2024 election. As I am sure he is aware, our manifesto was clear that it did not make a commitment to bring forward compensation. What is the case is that Labour Members opposed the acceleration of the state pension age back in 2011, which in some cases gave women only five years’ notice. However, we of course lost that vote in Parliament and subsequent elections, and the courts unfortunately upheld that decision. As I have said, what we are debating in this case is the communications, not the decision itself. On those grounds, we have set out in detail the reasons for the decisions we have made and laid that document in the House of Commons Library.
Mr Speaker
We now come to a marathon runner—five hours and 20 minutes—Chris Vince.
Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)
I will not lie, Mr Speaker: bobbing is slightly more difficult than normal this morning.
Can the Minister detail what the ombudsman found about the financial loss women suffered as a result of the delay in sending out letters? On a more general point, can he say what this Government are doing to support women in retirement in my constituency of Harlow?
Torsten Bell
My hon. Friend makes a large effort not only when it comes to pounding the streets, but in raising his constituents’ cases and, in this case, those of female pensioners. He is absolutely right to say that there is a distinction between the communication of state pension age increases and the increase in the state pension age, and it is the latter that has had such an effect on millions of women, particularly the speed of the increase in 2011. I think there are lessons for this House and for all Governments about what would happen in future, and we certainly would not be bringing forward such short-notice changes.
My hon. Friend is also right to say that what matters more generally is what we are doing to support pensioners, and making sure they have dignity and support in retirement. On that front, just this month we are increasing the state pension, and we will be continuing to do that over the course of this Parliament via the triple lock, which is set to increase it by up to £2,100. We are also making sure that £26 billion of investment is going into our NHS, bringing down waiting lists month on month, because this Government came into office with one in five of those aged over 75 on NHS waiting lists, and we cannot allow that to continue.
Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con)
When his party was in opposition, the Prime Minister promised compensation for WASPI women, but when faced with the economic reality of the costs, he and the Secretary of State chose common sense over ideology. In the spirit of that pragmatism, may I ask the Pensions Minister also to take a sensible, thoughtful approach to mandation powers in the Pension Schemes Bill, and to remove clause 40 altogether?
Torsten Bell
We have debated this issue quite extensively in recent weeks, and the House will have another chance to do so later today. As I have set out during our debates, representatives of the industry itself have said that it is in the interests of savers to invest in a wider range of assets. That reflects lessons from across the industry—from open defined-benefit schemes, but also from those in the rest of the world, where the lack of exposure of the UK’s defined-contribution schemes to that wider range of assets makes it stand out. We have introduced a reserve measure to backstop the changes that the industry says are needed to solve a collective action problem. I will not try the patience of the House by repeating them now, but the aim is to ensure that savers do not lose out. We have also put in place significant protections relating to an affirmative vote, as well as the savers’ interest tests that enable pension schemes to spell out what is in the interests of their members.
Vikki Slade (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
Our annual report and accounts 2024-25 states that, in that year, we answered some 43 million calls—up from 37 million in the previous year. Our call-answering rate increased to 86%, and the average answering time improved by one minute and 12 seconds. However, we do of course want to make further improvements where we can. We have continued to prioritise the service by focusing extra resources, and are currently making a systematic effort to clear agent work queues to free up capacity. We hope to see that progress lead to further improvements very soon.
Vikki Slade
I am glad that the call answering has speeded up, but, like those of many other Members, my office is constantly dealing with very long delays on the part of the DWP. Back in September 2024, my constituent Jackie appealed against a personal independence payment assessment for her husband, who died a couple of months later. In January, she received a letter saying that she had been overpaid by £7,000. I became involved in the middle of last year, when it was established that the figure was £75. The DWP confirmed that in January, but in April—so we are now nearly two years on—my constituent received a letter saying that she now owed £4,086. Given the radical plans to cut civil service numbers, what steps will the Secretary of State and his team take to deliver a better service in order to ensure that constituents such as Jackie do not suffer emotional or financial distress?
Andrew Western
I would be happy to look into that case if the hon. Lady writes to me. I am sorry if she feels that her constituent has been let down. We are taking additional steps—beyond those relating to call handling—to look at responsiveness more broadly. I apologise: it was not clear from the wording of her original question that she was referring to correspondence as well as telephony.
James Asser (West Ham and Beckton) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Pat McFadden)
The number of youth apprenticeship starts has fallen by 40% over the past decade. Because we want to give more young people the chance of apprenticeships, we are fully funding youth apprenticeships for small businesses, introducing a £2,000 hiring incentive for non-levy-paying employers, and expanding foundation apprenticeships in hospitality and retail. All that is aimed at more opportunity and more work for young people.
James Asser
I very much welcome the work being done to prioritise and expand apprenticeships, but all too often their image is dated and the modern situation is not fully understood. While my local university tells me that good work on promoting apprenticeships is being done in private and grammar schools, that is not always reflected across the wider state sector. Will the Government consider how we might tackle the issue, working with apprenticeship bodies, industry organisations and the unions, to ensure that modern apprenticeships are fully known about and the opportunities they provide are fully understood?
Pat McFadden
My hon. Friend is right to say that promoting apprenticeships must start in schools. Our brilliant apprenticeship ambassador network brings together about 3,000 employers and apprentices, who go into schools and colleges and share stories about how apprenticeships can transform young lives. Those ambassadors have now reached 97% of the state-funded secondary schools and colleges in England—nearly 3,500 in the past three years—but, for the reasons that my hon. Friend has given, we have got to do more work to make information about apprenticeships as clear and easy to use as possible.
Greg Smith (Mid Buckinghamshire) (Con)
I raised with the Prime Minister at PMQs a couple of weeks ago the case of Twentyfour Hair, a salon in Princes Risborough in my constituency, which for the first time in 21 years cannot afford to take on a new apprentice. That message is echoed by businesses across my constituency. In order to improve uptake in new apprenticeship starts, which I entirely support, what steps is the Secretary of State taking with the Chancellor to get rid of this punitive level of business taxation, which is preventing businesses from taking them on?
Pat McFadden
I referred in my previous answer to the step I am taking, which is to put in place a £2,000 hiring incentive for small businesses taking up a new apprentice. If it is someone who has been unemployed and on universal credit for six months, there is the potential for an additional £3,000 hiring incentive on top of the £2,000. We want to incentivise small businesses to take on apprentices, for reasons that I think are shared right across the House and because of the great opportunities that they entail.
Amanda Martin (Portsmouth North) (Lab)
This month I launched a space apprenticeship pilot in Portsmouth North, bringing together Airbus and the Solent Growth Partnership to ensure that candidates who narrowly miss out on an Airbus apprenticeship are matched directly with defence and space SMEs in the area. Following the failure of the last Government, does the Secretary of State agree that this Labour Government’s reforms are finally delivering high-value opportunities in aerospace and cyber, and will he work with me to look at how we can extend this initiative across other sectors, such as maritime and construction?
Pat McFadden
May I congratulate my hon. Friend on what sounds like a fantastic initiative? She puts her finger on something very important: sometimes people who narrowly lose out on a particular apprenticeship could benefit from one elsewhere. I did refer to the work that we are doing to try to improve the information, and the initiative she has taken is a great example of what can be done. Just because people do not get their first choice should not mean that they lose out on the opportunity of an apprenticeship entirely.
Caroline Voaden (South Devon) (LD)
Apprenticeships offer young people a great pathway into rewarding careers, so I very much welcome the Government’s ambition to create more of them, but a report published last week by the Social Security Advisory Committee highlighted the so-called apprenticeship penalty, whereby low-income families can lose up to £330 a week in child benefit and universal credit the moment a 16-year-old takes up an apprenticeship. What is the point of creating more apprenticeships if a cliff edge like this discourages young people from taking them up? Will the Minister commit to urgently fixing this penalty, so that no family are left worse off simply because their child chooses an apprenticeship over full-time education?
Pat McFadden
I am always grateful for the work of the Social Security Advisory Committee, and I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her question, but one thing that she missed out is that apprenticeships are paid, so a young person taking up an apprenticeship opportunity will be earning money that contributes to the family’s income. We have to take that into account, as well as all the other sources of the family’s income.
Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
I really welcome my right hon. Friend’s work in this area, given that so many young people are unemployed, but what is he doing to evaluate how many apprentices get proper, long-term, full-time jobs as a result? Clearly, that is the end goal that we all want to see.
Pat McFadden
My hon. Friend will know that when people complete an apprenticeship, their chances of employment are very high. I am pleased to report that apprenticeship achievement rates are up in the latest figures, as are the apprenticeship start numbers.
Shockat Adam (Leicester South) (Ind)
Leicester college, a further education college, is facing a funding crisis that is putting apprenticeships at risk. The Government have a noble commitment to building 1.5 million homes and training 60,000 construction workers, but young people wanting construction apprenticeships are being turned away. No bricklayers, no electricians and no plumbers means no homes. In Leicester, the rate of young people who are not in education, employment or training is nearly 6%—five times higher than the national average. We have the employers and we have the demand, but without proper funding, we cannot deliver the skilled workforce that this country desperately needs. What real-terms funding increase will the Secretary of State commit to in order to ensure that young people have the opportunity to access skills via the apprenticeship scheme?
Pat McFadden
We always listen to representations that ask for more funding for many good causes. On the issue of construction, a specific construction sector skills package was announced last year. It is aimed precisely at training the bricklayers, electricians and plumbers we need to meet our construction targets, not only in housing but in the many investment projects around the country that are being supported by this Government.
Mr Peter Bedford (Mid Leicestershire) (Con)
With the number of young people not in education, employment or training hovering at the 1 million mark, apprenticeships now more than ever are key to supporting opportunity and aspiration for so many of our young people. Conservative Members fundamentally believe that the best path out of poverty is being in work and contributing to society, with all the economic freedoms that a job brings. Given that the number of apprenticeships in the Secretary of State’s own Department dropped from 5,000 in 2024 to 3,500 in 2025, is it not the case that the Government’s message to business is, “Do as we say, but not as we do”?
Pat McFadden
I agree with the shadow Minister that work is the answer. As I said a moment ago, apprenticeship starts are up on the latest figures and apprenticeship achievement rates are up. The reforms that we are putting in place will mean more youth apprenticeship starts, and that is where the money should be directed, because that is where the need is greatest.
Steve Darling (Torbay) (LD)
A recent Guardian report highlighted how young people from more deprived communities are facing discrimination through the apprenticeship system. As my hon. Friend the Member for South Devon (Caroline Voaden) alluded to, there is a penalty if someone’s family also receives child benefit. How can the Minister intervene to support the most vulnerable families?
Pat McFadden
It is important to remember that apprenticeships are paid and that the people undergoing them get a wage. When we are considering the overall economic impact on a family’s income, we have to take that into account. Frankly, if the hon. Member pushes me and asks me whether it is better for that income to come from benefits or the constructive work of an apprenticeship, I know which one I would pick.
Iqbal Mohamed (Dewsbury and Batley) (Ind)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
The CMS publishes several metrics regarding how quickly it responds to parents. In the quarter ending September 2025, on average, 96% of applications were cleared within 12 weeks and 83% of changes of circumstances were cleared within 28 days. Those are targets for the CMS set by the Department.
Iqbal Mohamed
I have constituents with court orders confirming genuinely shared care who are none the less required to pay full child maintenance for extended periods while disputes are resolved and/or system processes are completed. How does the Department ensure that evidence of shared care is applied consistently, fairly and speedily by the CMS? What support is available to constituents who face continued financial liability and hardship while they wait for delays in CMS decisions or tribunal outcomes to be resolved?
Andrew Western
Shared care can be incredibly contested, and questions about the suitability of evidence and which evidence takes precedent are often disputed. The hon. Member suggests that he has particular cases that he would like the Department to take a look into. If he writes to me with them, the responsible Minister, my noble Friend Baroness Sherlock, or I will provide a response.
Mr Luke Charters (York Outer) (Lab)
The Government’s planned major changes to CMS payments are welcome, but my casework inbox is inundated—absolutely chock-a-block—with complaints about the CMS’s poor customer service, which is damaging the lives of dozens of my constituents in the process. What steps can my hon. Friend take to rapidly improve the effectiveness of the CMS?
Andrew Western
My hon. Friend will be pleased to know that there is a significant improvement journey under way in the Child Maintenance Service. I am always keen to point out to Members that while we see a large number of CMS cases in our caseload due to the more adversarial nature of the cases it deals with, it is a fraction of the overall number of cases that the Department deals with. We continue to ensure prompt payments to more than a million children.
Liz Jarvis (Eastleigh) (LD)
My office deals with hundreds of Child Maintenance Service cases. In one case, a mum applied to the CMS in June last year and was initially awarded just over £100. She applied for a mandatory reconsideration and the figure was increased. However, the increased payments have still not been made, and she is experiencing significant financial hardship and stress as a result. Has the Minister considered how failings in the service facilitate post-separation abuse?
Andrew Western
My noble Friend Baroness Sherlock takes a very keen interest in this issue, in particular how we can look at the abolition of direct pay to subvert some of the instances of financial abuse and coercive control that we continue to see. If the hon. Lady would like to write to me about her specific case, I will ensure she receives a response.
Catherine Atkinson (Derby North) (Lab)
My constituent Rebecca and her now 13-year-old have not received child maintenance for over a decade. Arrears exceed £10,000, but because her son’s father has moved in and out of employment he has evaded enforcement, even where deduction from earnings orders have been made. I welcome that child maintenance systems are being reformed, but will the Minister tell us what action will be taken so that Rebecca and parents in similar situations across the country get the support they are entitled to?
Andrew Western
I thank my hon. Friend for her question. I know that she has been representing Rebecca for some time in seeking a resolution to that case. We seek to introduce a range of changes when parliamentary time allows, but clearly there is further work to do to ensure that enforcement processes are also strengthened. Baroness Sherlock would be happy to discuss that with my hon. Friend if she feels that would be appropriate, and I would be happy to facilitate such a meeting.
Rebecca Smith (South West Devon) (Con)
The Child Maintenance Service is not working for parents and it is not working for children. My own casework shows that the majority of those getting in touch about the CMS believe it to be ineffective, with systemic issues in communication, timeliness and case handling. My constituents are not alone. The independent case examiner received 1,827 complaints about the CMS in 2024-25, up from 1,519 in 2023-24. In November 2024, the charity Gingerbread published a report, “Fix the CMS”. In October 2025, a House of Lords Public Services Committee report recommended a range of changes to do the same. The Government have responded to both, but when will the Government enact the changes to bring forward the recommended and acknowledged improvements to the service?
Andrew Western
As I said in a previous response, we will do so when parliamentary time allows. My noble Friend Baroness Sherlock is also considering a calculation review. There is a range of issues with the CMS that need to be looked at and resolved to ensure that the children in the middle of this get the support to which they are entitled.
Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD)
The Minister for Social Security and Disability (Sir Stephen Timms)
In the six months up to March last year, we appointed an additional 111 case managers to help deal with increased demand for child DLA. The current target is to clear 90% of new child DLA claims in 45 days. Performance has steadily improved, and I am pleased to say that in March we did hit that target.
Sarah Olney
Over the past two years, only 3.5% of applications for disability living allowance for children have been approved by the Department for Work and Pensions within its own target timeframe. Parents of children with disabilities work tirelessly to ensure that their children can have the same opportunities as everyone else, and the disregard the DWP has shown towards supporting their claims is unacceptable. One of my constituents has experienced those lengthy delays first-hand and an administrative error meant she did not even receive her first payment award. Will the Minister commit to urgent action to ensure that the DWP’s pathetic processing time for children’s DLA applications does not continue?
Sir Stephen Timms
As I said to the hon. Member, we did hit the 90% target last month. That reflects a steady improvement over the last few months. We are also introducing a new online evidence portal to improve evidence gathering, in particular from schools and people in education professions. That will also reduce delays, and we plan to roll that out fully in autumn. We are on the case and making significant improvements.
Dr Kieran Mullan (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
The Government are committed to reforming the Child Maintenance Service to get more money to children by removing direct pay to combat hidden non-compliance, streamlining enforcement by introducing administrative liability orders and improving our most serious enforcement measures. That said, there are currently no plans to introduce curfew measures; doing so would require amendments to primary legislation and raise significant safeguarding concerns for paying parents and those who live with them.
Dr Mullan
Every year, millions of pounds of child maintenance go unspent, not including deductions for money hidden away and parents who pretend they cannot work. As far as I am concerned, if someone has children and they can pay towards their maintenance, they absolutely should. Enforcement is not working, because the Government treat it like an unpaid utility bill rather than a moral obligation that people have towards their children. I would like the Minister to revisit his suggestion that the Government would need primary legislation to use curfew orders, as that is not my understanding. If all the other measures are not working, why should someone who does not pay for their own children be able to go out on the lash on a Friday and Saturday night when the Government can stop that happening?
Andrew Western
I will handle that question with care, Mr Speaker. [Laughter.] I know that the hon. Gentleman has been consistent on this matter for a very long time. A range of serious enforcement powers are already available to the Department, including disqualification from driving, removal of a passport, taking control of people’s goods and even, in some cases, commitment to prison, but very serious safeguarding concerns can arise as a result of the use of curfew orders; in one very tragic case recently, an individual subject to a curfew order murdered members of his family. On the hon. Gentleman’s specific question as to whether use of the orders requires primary legislation, I will follow up in writing to confirm that or otherwise.
Zöe Franklin (Guildford) (LD)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
Redundancy payments are not taken into account in the standard maintenance calculation, which is based on gross taxable income from earnings, although the capital may be considered through an asset variation if the paying parent holds the income in a bank or savings account and the amount is at least £31,250. The Child Maintenance Service may also take the redundancy payment into account when considering any maintenance arrears.
Zöe Franklin
I thank the Minister for this and previous answers on the CMS. I hear the Government saying “when time allows”, but this really is important for the families who have suffered for too many years. My constituent, for example, has successfully appealed at tribunal, with both the judge and the Child Maintenance Service agreeing that the parent’s declared income did not reflect their true earnings, and arrears were awarded. Yet after receiving a substantial redundancy payment and despite holding significant assets, including property and substantial pension investments, no maintenance is being paid, and enforcement has not taken place. Does the Minister accept that this exposes a gap in how redundancy payments are treated by the CMS and the wider enforcement framework, and will he urgently review both to ensure that children are not left without support and no longer suffer?
Andrew Western
Part of the challenge here is that the legislation currently requires us to use earnings information and figures provided by His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, and, because redundancy payments of up to £80,000 are exempted from tax, they do not show up in that way. However, I hear what the hon. Lady is saying and the wider mood of the House with regard to the Child Maintenance Service, and I will share the concerns that she raises with my noble Friend Baroness Sherlock.
Yuan Yang (Earley and Woodley) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Pat McFadden)
I believe my hon. Friend will welcome the changes the Government have made to statutory sick pay, which came into force earlier this month. For the first time ever, we have removed the lower earnings limit for statutory sick pay, as well as the waiting period so that people can access sick pay as soon as they need it. These changes will mean that up to 1.3 million more people will be covered, helping the low paid and those who work for more than one employer in particular.
Yuan Yang
I am indeed very proud of this Labour Government’s historic Employment Rights Act 2025, which, from this month, means that workers will get statutory sick pay from the first day they are ill, rather than having to wait till the fourth. Too many people in Reading—even those working in health and care settings—are working through their illnesses; this measure will protect them, their clients and patients and improve the productivity of their workplaces.
While the ERA is an important step forward, does the Secretary of State accept that the current flat rate of statutory sick pay—at four fifths of average earnings—remains a barrier to those on low incomes, and thus remains a barrier to tackling illness in the workplace?
Pat McFadden
I believe that removing the three-day limit and giving access to statutory sick pay from day one, as well as making it available to those who work for multiple employers, should decrease the pressure on workers to have to work through illness.
My hon. Friend will be aware that the “Keep Britain Working” review led by Charlie Mayfield also aims to work with employers to help keep people in jobs while they cope with some of the long-term sickness issues that can develop as workers get older.
Ben Coleman (Chelsea and Fulham) (Lab)
Tom Rutland (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Lab)
The Minister for Social Security and Disability (Sir Stephen Timms)
We are determined that disabled people should have the confidence to try work. Our “right to try” legislation will come into force on Thursday. People claiming universal credit, new style employment support allowance and personal independence payment can take steps towards employment and be confident that doing so will not automatically trigger benefit reassessment.
Ben Coleman
I thank the Minister for that positive answer. Could he reassure my disabled constituents under the age of 22, many of whom are in education and low-paid work, that they will not lose their universal credit health payments? This financial support is vital to helping young disabled people, because they face the greatest barriers to work. Does he share my concern that removing it could push them further away from employment and deeper into poverty? Has an assessment been made of the impact on poverty of removing that support?
Sir Stephen Timms
There is an urgent need to address the big rise in the number of young people not in work, education or training that took place before the last general election. We think that better support might help young people more than extra cash. Alan Milburn’s review on the NEET problem more broadly will report in September; we will wait until then to decide whether to delay access to the universal credit health element until the age of 22. If we did do that, there would need to be exceptions.
Tom Rutland
Thanks to grant funding from DWP, my local Labour councils in Adur and Worthing are joining the Connect to Work programme, helping local people get into good local jobs. But for young people, including those with disabilities, being not in employment, education or training remains an issue. What more is being done to work with businesses and get more young people into the opportunities that they can thrive in?
Sir Stephen Timms
I very much welcome the fact that my hon. Friend’s local authority is joining up with Connect to Work, which will be available across the whole of England and Wales by this summer. These regulations are a very important step forward. More needs to be done to give people confidence that moving into work or embarking on volunteering will not trigger a benefit reassessment. I also point him to our Pathways to Work guarantee, giving tailored personalised support to young people in the position that he described, and to the “Keep Britain Working” review by Charlie Mayfield, making employer vacancies accessible to my hon. Friend’s constituents and others in the position that he described.
John Milne (Horsham) (LD)
My disabled constituent Joanne was holding down a good job, but delays in Access to Work resulted in her not receiving the necessary support to stay in it. The Government’s new “right to try” initiative is a positive move, but will the Minister commit to resourcing vital support services like Access to Work, and to eliminating its backlog of over 62,000 cases as a matter of urgency? If not, we will find ourselves in the same position a year from now.
Sir Stephen Timms
The support provided by Access to Work is absolutely vital. There has been a big surge in demand for the scheme over the last few years, which has led to some significant delay. I am very sorry to hear that the hon. Gentleman’s constituent has been affected in the way that he described. We said last year that we wanted to reform Access to Work, and that reform is much needed given the greatly increased demand. We are working on proposals and as soon as we are able to put them before the House, we will do so.
Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)
It was a great joy to spend time last month in Kendal for the Disability Confident employer scheme. It is gaining more and more members in our community and is helping people with disabilities into work. Around 20% of working-age people live with a disability; many work, and many more wish to. What is the Minister doing to support Disability Confident employers, to make it easier for them to employ people with disabilities and to support those with disabilities into the workforce?
Sir Stephen Timms
I point the hon. Gentleman to the Keep Britain Working review, which Sir Charlie Mayfield is leading; it addresses exactly the issue that he rightly raises. We are also looking at reforming Disability Confident, which has huge potential—19,000 employers have signed up, I think. There is a lot of enthusiasm on the part of employers. We want to make sure that those who sign up to the scheme then progress up the levels so that Disability Confident makes a really significant difference. I am very hopeful that it will.
Mr Andrew Snowden (Fylde) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Pat McFadden)
The latest unemployment figures published last week show a fall to 4.9% in February, which I am sure the whole House will welcome. Along with growth figures of 0.5% earlier this year, that is more evidence that the economy was heading in the right direction at the beginning of the year. But I have to warn the House that external effects caused by the war in Iran and the rise in energy prices may affect jobs as well as prices in the coming months.
Mr Snowden
Fylde’s stunning coastline and countryside mean that the hospitality, tourism and leisure industry is at the heart of our local economy. But I have met many businesses that, following the changes to national insurance, have let go so many young people from that industry and are simply not taking on new seasonal staff. Could the Secretary of State update the House on the current trends of unemployment among 18 to 24-year-olds?
Pat McFadden
I recently joined a successful jobs fair close to the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, where the industries that he mentioned were hiring more people—it was one of the most successful such events that we have seen. I hope that he will welcome the fact that 330,000 more people are in work this year than at this time last year. When it comes to young people, he will of course know that there is a national insurance exemption for employees under 21.
Adam Thompson (Erewash) (Lab)
Because of the previous Government’s actions, the number of people not in employment, education or training rose by nearly 250,000 between 2021 and 2024, leaving many hundreds of my constituents among the almost 1 million young people in that situation today. I am glad to see, then, that the Secretary of State is taking action to support young people in Erewash through the youth guarantee. Further to that, will the Secretary of State please explain the measures that his Department is taking to address the decade-long trend of growing youth unemployment?
Pat McFadden
My hon. Friend will know that the number of young people not in education, employment or training rose by about a quarter of a million in the last three years of the Conservative party’s time in power, but that Government did nothing about it. We are putting in place a youth guarantee that offers training, work experience, subsidised employment and hiring incentives to small and medium-sized employers for both regular jobs and apprenticeships. That is all part of the effort to make sure that young people do not graduate from education to a life on benefits, and that they get the chance in life that a decent job brings.
Helen Whately (Faversham and Mid Kent) (Con)
I was disappointed that the Secretary of State did not answer the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Fylde (Mr Snowden), so let me help him. Unemployment among 18 to 24-year-olds is at 14.3%—that means that one in seven young people is unemployed. There are thousands fewer jobs and thousands fewer vacancies under the right hon. Gentleman’s Government. I speak to young people across the country, who tell me that it is desperately difficult to get a job, and it is no wonder. His Government have made it much harder for businesses to employ people, especially young people.
I appreciate that the Secretary of State may be trying his best with his plethora of work schemes, but they are just a sticking plaster for the damage that the Chancellor has wreaked. Governments do not create jobs; businesses do. His Government need to change tack and back businesses to create opportunities for the next generation. I am on their side—isn’t he? Will he help the Chancellor understand before it is too late?
Pat McFadden
The hon. Lady neglected to mention that youth unemployment never recovered to levels enjoyed under the last Labour Government at any point during the Conservative party’s time in power; it was exacerbated during their last few years in particular. The difference is that we are responding with the initiatives that I have set before the House today. That is because we believe that work is the best answer and the best opportunity for young people. I will keep going, to give young people hope and opportunity because that is what this Labour Government stand for.
Mr Lee Dillon (Newbury) (LD)
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Pat McFadden)
Since our last DWP oral questions, I have updated the House on the expansion of our youth employment offer, I have been to an excellent job fair in Glasgow, I have said that the latest unemployment figures show a fall, and last week I went back to university—it was the McDonald’s Hamburger University. My Big Mac was not perfect, but I welcome McDonald’s as the latest employer to support our youth guarantee. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Social Security and Disability has said that the “right to try” regulations have come into force and, as we have mentioned, we also have the changes on statutory sick pay, which significantly expand coverage and make it available from the first day of employment.
Mr Dillon
I worked at McDonald’s throughout my GCSEs and A-levels and while at university—it is a good employer for those who are studying. Newbury Soup Kitchen is a local charity that is supporting a constituent of mine, spending many hours on the phone to universal credit staff. However, they do not consistently accept the authority to discuss, demanded an in-person meeting despite the resident being wheelchair dependent, and offered a Teams meeting only for the resident to find out that Berkshire does not offer Teams meetings. Will a Minister meet me to discuss the case and the process failures?
Pat McFadden
I am happy to ensure that the hon. Member gets a meeting with a Minister from the Department to discuss his constituent’s case.
Rachel Blake (Cities of London and Westminster) (Lab/Co-op)
Pat McFadden
My hon. Friend is right that we need everyone—not just central Government—to be involved. I would like local authorities, businesses—all of us—to see the youth opportunity challenge as a national endeavour worthy of all our support. I am happy to work with her local authority to try to make it as successful as possible.
Helen Whately (Faversham and Mid Kent) (Con)
Mr Speaker,
“We cannot defend Britain with an ever-expanding welfare budget”.
That is the view of the author of the Government’s strategic defence review, the Labour peer, former Labour Defence Secretary and former Secretary-General of NATO Lord Robertson. Which will the Secretary of State choose: defending the country or paying people not to work?
Pat McFadden
The Conservative party failed to reform welfare and failed to back our defence forces—it left the armed forces at their smallest size since Napoleonic times—and it says that there is a choice. The truth is, the Conservatives did neither of those things; we are doing both. We are increasing defence spending to 2.5% of GDP—something they never achieved, despite inheriting that level from us when they took office—and we are reforming welfare by putting work and opportunity at the heart of everything we do.
Helen Whately
Let us put some facts on the table, because it is time for the Government to confront the hard choices. We are spending less than 2.5% of GDP on defence, but 5.3% of GDP on welfare. Six million people of working age are living on benefits. Under the Secretary of State’s Government, over a million more people have gone on to universal credit and hundreds of thousands have gone on to sickness benefits—and the Government are choosing to spend even more by scrapping the two-child cap. We cannot go on like this. When will he and the current Prime Minister come forward with a plan to bring the welfare bill down? Or is it like with Sir Olly Robbins: another topic where his judgment and the Prime Minister’s differ?
Pat McFadden
The shadow Secretary of State said that she wanted some facts, so let me give her some facts. The Tories inherited spending on defence at 2.5% of GDP; they left office with it lower. They left the Army at its smallest in two centuries, and they cut the number of frigates and destroyers by 25%. It is the Labour Government who are increasing expenditure on defence. It is the Labour Government who are reforming welfare, including the changes in universal credit this month, and the youth employment initiatives that we have talked about throughout these questions.
Patrick Hurley (Southport) (Lab)
Pat McFadden
I thank my hon. Friend for a very good question. Here is another fact the shadow Secretary of State may not welcome: the truth is that before the pandemic, face-to-face interviews were the norm and after that, the numbers collapsed. Not only that, the previous Government signed off a new set of long-term contracts allowing most of the assessors to work from home, just a year before the general election. We are now increasing face-to-face interviews to provide a proper balance in the functional assessment process in the benefit system.
Steve Darling (Torbay) (LD)
The Department for Work and Pensions is currently reviewing over 200,000 cases of overpayments for carers, some of whom have accrued up to £20,000 through a situation not of their own making. In the light of this, will the Secretary of State stop applying carers penalties until the Department has completed this review?
The Minister for Social Security and Disability (Sir Stephen Timms)
As the hon. Gentleman has rightly said, we have now started reviewing those 200,000 cases. We anticipate that there will probably be 25,000 people among the 200,000 who could have debts cancelled, or could possibly be refunded. If carer’s allowance has been overpaid and should not have been, we will of course need to recover the money. The problem has been that the previous Government’s guidance in the Department was wrong. We have now corrected that, so I am hopeful that that particular kind of mistake will not occur again.
Charlie Dewhirst (Bridlington and The Wolds) (Con)
Pat McFadden
The policies that I am advocating are creating opportunity for young people, through offering employers hiring incentives, through promoting youth apprenticeship starts and through the other initiatives that we have set out. We do this because we agree that work is the best answer for young people, and I want to do everything I can to make sure that they have the maximum chance to get work.
Steve Yemm (Mansfield) (Lab)
Pat McFadden
Youth hubs are another part of the effort, and the advantage is that we can get the help that the jobcentre can give to where young people are in the community. This also means we can get help to people who are not necessarily signing on for benefits but who are looking for work, and it enables us to give a more flexible response across different services. We hope to expand these hubs to more than 360 locations, where they will be open to all 16 to 24-year-olds, whether or not they are on benefits.
Rupert Lowe (Great Yarmouth) (Restore Britain)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
I fundamentally disagree with the perspective of the hon. Gentleman on people who have been here for years, made a contribution and paid their taxes, and then require some help back from a state that they have paid into, sometimes for decades. Not only that, the figure that he uses is a complete conflation and a significant overestimation. He shows his ignorance if he does not understand that it is impossible to suggest that that money has all been paid directly to foreign nationals because the figure that he uses is drawn from the total number of households with a foreign national in them, and many of the individual claimants could in fact be British or Irish citizens.
Kim Johnson (Liverpool Riverside) (Lab)
The Timms review is supposed to be shaped by disabled people and disabled groups, but I am hearing constantly that this is not the case, and that they are feeling sidelined. Can the Minister explain how we will ensure that there is true co-production, and that this is not just a tick-box exercise, and how the regions and diverse groups will be represented?
Sir Stephen Timms
I can certainly reassure my hon. Friend that we are ensuring genuine co-production. Two co-chairs, Sharon Brennan and Dr Clenton Farquharson, were appointed last October. The three of us have recruited a steering group of 12; they are almost entirely disabled people. Our fifth full-day steering group meeting was in Manchester last Thursday. We have issued a call for evidence, which is open until 28 May. We have had over 10,000 responses so far, and I hope we will receive many more. That is just step one in a programme of wider engagement. This is genuine co-production that will deliver.
Dr Roz Savage (South Cotswolds) (LD)
Pat McFadden
I have discussed this subject a lot with hon. Members from right across the House, and the issue that the hon. Member raises about transport is raised quite a lot with me. It is important, and I am willing to look at anything that I can do on that front to help people take up available opportunities. We need to bring everything together to give young people the maximum employment opportunities.
Sarah Edwards (Tamworth) (Lab)
As chair of the all-party parliamentary group for small and medium-sized enterprise house builders, I regularly hear about the growing skills shortage, and the urgent need to change perceptions about careers in construction, which is a highly skilled, rewarding industry that offers strong career progression, good wages and an opportunity to play a direct role in building the homes that our country needs. What steps is the Minister taking to invest in technical training for young people, so that SME house builders have the skilled workforce that they need to deliver the homes that this country urgently needs?
Pat McFadden
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to draw attention to the need for skills for house building. We support those skills through sector-based work academy programmes. Last year, the Government announced a £625 million construction skills package, in order to recruit 60,000 workers by 2029 to all the trades that we need for building and the other physical investment projects that the Government are supporting around the country.
Gregory Stafford (Farnham and Bordon) (Con)
As the Government’s reforms to special educational needs and disabilities provision focus on pushing children into mainstream education, they risk removing specialist support from many who need it and undermining successful work programmes, such as the Witherslack futures programme. Will the Secretary of State meet me and relevant groups to ensure that he does not allow SEND reforms to damage the chances of young people with special educational needs and disabilities to secure long-term, sustainable work?
Sir Stephen Timms
I welcome the hon. Member’s consistent interest in this important topic, and he will know that the SEND reforms that have been announced have been well received. Our youth guarantee will apply to young people with special educational needs and disabilities, and the trailblazers that we have set up are trying out new approaches, but I would be delighted to meet him and discuss how we can do this job.
Mr Bayo Alaba (Southend East and Rochford) (Lab)
I welcome the £2.5 million funding boost recently awarded to South Essex college; that will help equip even more residents from Southend and Rochford with the skills needed for fulfilling, lifelong careers. Following my conversations with Louisa Strachan, founder of Song School in Southend, on their desire for greater support for creative apprenticeships, can the Minister outline the steps that his Department is taking to support young people into the creative and music industries?
Pat McFadden
I thank my hon. Friend and sing a song of praise for the Song School in Southend. He is absolutely right to draw attention to the importance of the creative industries. Our creative industries sector plan provides £380 million of targeted investment, and, as part of the work on the youth guarantee, I was pleased to meet the film and TV industries at Pinewood Studios in January of this year to talk more about the opportunities that they offer young people in our fantastic creative industries sector.
Tom Gordon (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (LD)
Disabled people in England face a postcode lottery when it comes to the time in which they can use their bus passes. What conversations have been had with colleagues at the Department for Transport and the Treasury about removing those unfair time restrictions?
Sir Stephen Timms
I regularly meet the lead Ministers on disability from all Departments, including the Department for Transport; I know that my colleague there is particularly interested in transport accessibility for disabled people. I would be very happy to pick up with them the point that the hon. Gentleman raises.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
Our declining healthy life expectancy, as underlined in today’s Health Foundation report, is a real worry, but as Professor Sir Michael Marmot has shown, that is no surprise after 14 years of austerity and its impact on our public services. There is the potential for a significant knock-on effect on Department for Work and Pensions spending. What conversations has my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State had with the Health Secretary on this issue, and is it being considered in the Timms review?
Pat McFadden
I know that the Chair of the Select Committee cares deeply about health inequalities in this country, which, to be honest with the House, are deep seated and long term. As in many areas of our work, I believe that constructive and productive employment is a big part of the answer in tackling inequality and prosperity issues right around the country.
Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)
I am dealing with a constituency case in which an individual has paid £23,000 during a dispute about being the parent of a child. He was not on the birth certificate, and the mother refused a DNA test. After three hearings in the family court, the court has ruled in his favour. I am sure the House will appreciate that £23,000 is an incredible amount of money for someone to pay for a child who is not theirs. Will the Minister meet me to discuss how my constituent can have it reimbursed?
Katrina Murray (Cumbernauld and Kirkintilloch) (Lab)
BriggsAmasco in my constituency invests heavily in apprenticeships for the next generation of mastic asphalt tradespeople. According to BriggsAmasco, only 11 people in that part of Scotland are fully qualified in this work, and the only route to qualifying is through training programmes in England. The only training provider in Scotland stopped accepting apprentices last September. Will the Minister meet me to see if we can find a way to back employers that want to employ, and apprentices who want to train? There is a shortage of workers in that profession.
Pat McFadden
I thank my hon. Friend for being such a formidable champion for her constituency, and for opportunity within it. I would be very happy to talk with her further about this issue, but I point out that skills and apprenticeships are devolved in Scotland. The Scottish Government have received a record financial settlement—the greatest since devolution began—and I hope that opportunity for young people is part of their agenda.
Adam Dance (Yeovil) (LD)
My office has been waiting over six months for DWP replies to certain cases. Citizens Advice has reached out because it is not getting replies either. Will the Minister commit to getting us those responses this week, and will he commit to greater resourcing for responding to Members, particularly in relation to universal credit?
Pat McFadden
I know that responding to hon. Members’ inquiries—be they direct or on behalf of their constituents —is very important. I raise that with the Department constantly. If the hon. Gentleman sends me more details of the constituents in question, I will ensure that their cases are looked at right away.
Leigh Ingham (Stafford) (Lab)
We in Stafford welcome the announcement that Stafford college will become an advanced manufacturing technical hub, but we have a gap: more skilled jobs are needed than there are people to fill them. Will the Minister meet me to discuss the potential for Stafford to have a youth hub as soon as possible?
Pat McFadden
I know, because my constituency is not too far away, that advanced manufacturing is in the DNA of Staffordshire, so I warmly welcome what my hon. Friend said about her local college, and I will make sure that she gets a meeting with someone from the Department.
Mr Gagan Mohindra (South West Hertfordshire) (Con)
Earlier this year, I visited the High Speed 2 site in my constituency, where I had the privilege of speaking with several apprentices about the value of educational opportunities that offer a clear path into work. Given that there are nearly 1 million people not in education, employment or training, will the Minister outline what steps the Department is taking to promote such apprenticeship schemes?
Pat McFadden
We are promoting apprenticeships for young people in particular through the way that we prioritise the funding in the apprenticeship levy, and we are putting in place hiring incentives of £2,000 for small businesses that want to take on an apprentice. For small and medium-sized businesses, we will also fully fund the cost of apprenticeships for under-25s, because I agree with the hon. Gentleman that apprenticeships are a great opportunity for young people, and I want to do what I can to make sure that young people get more chances to avail themselves of those opportunities.
Lauren Edwards (Rochester and Strood) (Lab)
Can the Minister provide an update on the action plan to ensure that lessons are learned from the way that changes to the state pension age were communicated to women born in the 1950s?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Torsten Bell)
I thank my hon. Friend for her question. There absolutely are lessons for us to learn from this experience, both related to that particular case, and on the general point about giving adequate notice of any changes to the state pension age; that is the most important lesson, and we are absolutely committed to learning that. On the action plan, that will be focused on state pension age comms, and on complaint handling. We will work closely with the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman on that right away, and I hope to be able to publish that action plan in the coming months. More broadly, we are not waiting for that, but are getting on with action. I am sure that hon. Members will have seen over the last few months the “check your state pension age” campaign, encouraging people to be aware of their state pension age.
Clive Jones (Wokingham) (LD)
Twelve weeks ago, I raised four cases with the DWP, and I am still waiting for a response, despite chasing. These delays are upsetting for my Wokingham constituents. What is the Minister doing to address this backlog, and when can my constituents expect a response?
Andrew Western
We are increasing the resources available to handle Members’ correspondence, but given the delays that the hon. Gentleman has outlined, if he wants to write to me with those details, I will look into them urgently for him.
Callum Anderson (Buckingham and Bletchley) (Lab)
Around half of working-age people are under-saving for retirement, which is why I welcomed the relaunch of the Pensions Commission last year. Can the Minister update the House on how the commission’s forthcoming interim report will set out a credible path to raising contribution rates, in a sustainable way, for those who need that most?
Torsten Bell
I welcome my hon. Friend’s question, and he is absolutely right. We have seen progress in the last 15 years; 23 million employees now save into a pension, and that is restarting the business of workplace pension savings in the UK, but the job is not done. It is not done because of the issue that he raises about the adequacy of the amount saved by those who are saving, and because 45% of working-age adults are saving nothing at all. That is why there has been cross-party consensus that we should bring back the Pensions Commission to look at the question of adequacy, and I am pleased to say that its interim report will be published in the coming months.
Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)
When a child is diagnosed with an illness such as cancer, their caring needs start immediately. Such a diagnosis upends any household; there are appointments, and often families are unable to work. Will the Minister review again the question of whether child disability living allowance should be paid immediately on diagnosis, as opposed to the family having to wait three months, and will he meet the Watson family from my constituency, who have, sadly, lived with this barrier to support?
Sir Stephen Timms
The hon. Member is right; there is a three-month period to wait after the onset of the incapacity or impairment. Sometimes I think there is a bit of confusion; people think it is three months after the application, but it is not: it is three months after the issue arises. That is to make sure that it is a long-term incapacity; that is what the benefit is there to support. I would be happy to have a conversation with the hon. Member about this. Of course, this matter is devolved in Northern Ireland, but Northern Ireland conventionally keeps in line with England.
David Baines (St Helens North) (Lab)
Last week was Multiple Sclerosis Awareness Week. I recently met my constituent Rob Denham to discuss the issues he has had with claiming the personal independence payment in the past—he compared the experience with being put on trial. Will the Minister assure me, Rob and all those suffering with MS that the review that the Government are now conducting will not just make the system more effective and efficient, but make it fairer and more humane?
Sir Stephen Timms
Yes. I was recently at a roundtable with someone who has multiple sclerosis who described to me the process of applying for PIP as “retraumatising”, rather like when she was initially diagnosed with MS. The steering group is determined to deliver a better system and when we report our recommendations to the Secretary of State in the autumn, I very much hope that that is what we will be able to do.
Ian Roome (North Devon) (LD)
One of my constituents in North Devon is a Royal Marines veteran who was just awarded over £2,700 in backdated universal credit, after the DWP failed to disregard his war pension from his monthly income. What can be done to ensure DWP staff understand armed forces pensions? Will the Minister assure hon. Members that this is not happening to other veterans across the country?
Sir Stephen Timms
I am very sorry to hear that the system was not properly understood in the case of the hon. Gentleman’s constituent. He is absolutely right that there is special treatment for compensation payments of this kind within the universal credit system. I will certainly talk to my officials about ensuring that those arrangements are properly understood in the Department.
Mike Reader (Northampton South) (Lab)
The potential rapid closure of St Andrew’s hospital in my constituency puts over 3,000 jobs at risk. Will the Secretary of State meet me to discuss what package of support we can put in place for those people to ensure they can find good quality work in my constituency?
Pat McFadden
As I have said a few times today, I will ensure that my hon. Friend gets a meeting with a Minister. I congratulate him on speaking up for his area and the workers within it.
Dunmurry Police Station Attack
(3 weeks ago)
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Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
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Mr Speaker
Before we come to the urgent question, I remind the House that there is an ongoing police investigation into the incident at Dunmurry. Members should avoid making any remarks that might prejudice future criminal proceedings.
Sorcha Eastwood (Lagan Valley) (Alliance)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the car bomb attack outside Dunmurry police station on 26 April 2026.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sorcha Eastwood) for her question.
Shortly before 11 pm on Saturday 25 April, a vehicle was abandoned just outside the front gate of the Police Service of Northern Ireland station at Dunmurry. The vehicle had been hijacked in the Twinbrook area of west Belfast a short time before, where a gas cylinder was placed in the boot of the vehicle and the driver was ordered to drive to the police station. When he got there, the driver informed the police, who immediately and very bravely evacuated nearby homes. A number of residents, including two babies, were being taken to safety when the device exploded. I know that the thoughts of the whole House will be with all those affected—residents who had to leave their homes, the police officers who were helping with that evacuation when the device exploded, and the delivery driver, who has been through a traumatic experience. It is incredibly fortunate that nobody was killed or injured.
A similar attack on the police station in Lurgan was attempted on 30 March, when a fast food delivery driver was also hijacked by two masked men, who placed an object in the boot of the car and ordered him to drive it to Lurgan police station or be killed. Mercifully, on that occasion ammunition technical officers were able to carry out a controlled explosion. They confirmed that it was a crude but viable improvised explosive device, and the New IRA later claimed responsibility. This was a shameless and cowardly attack on the brave men and women who work so hard to keep our communities safe in Northern Ireland. Urgent investigations into both incidents are, of course, continuing and I urge anyone who has any information to contact the PSNI.
Over the decades, Northern Ireland has been transformed into a much more peaceful society. However, a very small number of people who represent no one but themselves remain determined to try to cause harm to our communities. I join with the Prime Minister and all those from across the political spectrum in Northern Ireland who have condemned what happened on Saturday, and I know the House will join me in paying tribute to the extraordinary efforts of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, led by Jon Boutcher, and to our security partners. It is their tireless work that keeps our communities safe, and this Government will continue to support those efforts as together we seek to bring to account those responsible for terrorism.
Sorcha Eastwood
I am sure the whole House will join me in sending a message that terrorism never succeeds—neither in the past nor in 2026. I too wish to put on record my thanks to the Police Service of Northern Ireland for the work that it does every day, keeping communities safe in the face of ongoing threats. In particular, I pay tribute to those police officers who were in Dunmurry police station on Saturday evening and who were helping to evacuate babies as the device detonated.
I also pay tribute to the officers at Lurgan police station who were there on 30 March when a viable device was driven through the front gates of the station. My thoughts are also with the two delivery drivers, one of whom was held at gunpoint as their vehicle was hijacked. It is only by the grace of God that we are not dealing with fatalities. The people who commit these acts of terrorism have no support from the decent people of Northern Ireland—they do not now, and they did not in the past. This is not representative of who we are.
National security is a reserved matter, so will the Secretary of State commit to ensuring that the PSNI is adequately resourced to deal with tackling Northern Ireland-related terrorism, along with the other categories of extreme right-wing terrorism, extreme left-wing terrorism, Islamic terrorism and those acting without ideology? Those are stated national security priorities. It is clear that the PSNI is already operating within a challenging budget, and I am sure the Government will want to ensure that it is adequately resourced to tackle this threat.
Hilary Benn
I join the hon. Member in her expression of thanks to the police and in her expressions of concern for all those who have been affected. As she well knows, PSNI resources are determined by the Northern Ireland Executive, but it is our job as a Government to play our part. We have given a record settlement to the Executive in the spending review last summer, and we have implemented the first increase in the additional security funding in more than a decade; it will be £130 million over three years.
I also draw attention to the fact that there is a Home Office counter-terrorism policing grant. The level of funding per head is the same as that given by the additional security funding. Northern Ireland received Barnett consequentials on top of that as a result of the announcement of the Home Office counter-terrorism policing grant. It is for the Executive to determine how much it chooses to devote to policing out of the record settlement that we give.
Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab)
The two incidents in Lurgan and Dunmurry are of deep concern to us and to my Committee. I give my sincere thanks to the PSNI officers who have kept their communities safe. Does the Secretary of State agree that those responsible should face the full force of the law?
Hilary Benn
I certainly do. That is why anyone with any information has a responsibility to provide it to the PSNI so that people may be called to account.
The police and our security partners work hard every single day of the year to try to identify those responsible. For reasons that the House will well understand, a great deal of that work is unseen by the general public, but I assure my hon. Friend and the House that it is taking place, and we have seen that in recent times. In December, two men were sentenced to lengthy jail terms for preparatory acts of terrorism. PSNI investigations into drug criminality linked to the New IRA led to a man being sentenced last month in relation to the supply of drugs.
We have also acted against the New IRA and two individuals associated with the group through the Treasury’s counter-terrorism financial sanctions regime, which in effect takes control of the finances of those individuals. It is a very powerful tool to use, and, as my hon. Friend will see, we have already applied it on two occasions.
Alex Burghart (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sorcha Eastwood) on having secured this urgent question. I associate myself with her remarks and those of the Secretary of State, although I gently say that it would have been better if this had been a Government statement. I cannot help but feel that had that car bomb been placed outside a police station in Westminster or Birmingham, Government Ministers would have come to the House with a statement.
It is, of course, profoundly depressing that we should be discussing this issue at all. However, it is an enormous relief that we are not today talking about casualties. As the hon. Member for Lagan Valley said, but for the grace of God, we would have been; but for the bravery of local people, we would have been. I pay very deep tribute to all those brave men and women in the Police Service of Northern Ireland who serve and keep our country safe. They were the target of this despicable operation, and it will be their hard work that brings its perpetrators to justice.
The people who have attempted to break the peace in Northern Ireland have no mandate and no public support—they represent only themselves, and are seeking to serve only their macho egos. The silver lining is, of course, that we are watching people in Northern Ireland from all communities come together this morning, united against them. We have come an incredibly long way, but as the Secretary of State referenced, this does appear to be the start of a pattern of new and deeply concerning behaviour. That is reflected in what happened in Lurgan last month, but also in the marching of masked paramilitaries in Easter parades. Will the Secretary of State confirm to the House that the PSNI is going after those people who broke the laws that were laid down during the peace process, just as I know they will be going after those who tried to blow up the police station in Dunmurry?
The attack on Sunday raises a number of questions to which I hope the Secretary of State can provide answers, because he has responsibility for national security in Northern Ireland. Can the Secretary of State assure the House that the Chief Constable has the resources he needs? I say that because, notwithstanding his remarks about funding, the Northern Ireland Troubles Bill is going to put a huge additional financial burden on the PSNI. Even if the Chief Constable believes he has the resources he needs today, he will not have them tomorrow.
Hilary Benn
I join the hon. Member in his tribute to the Police Service of Northern Ireland, and agree with him that the response from all communities in Northern Ireland to this terrible attack is a sign of the new Northern Ireland and shows that those responsible have no support at all. Sadly, though, they do have some capacity. As he knows, the enforcement of the law is a job for the police service, and if criminal offences have been identified, it is for prosecutors to take decisions. I hope the hon. Member will agree that my answer to the question from the Chair of the Select Committee about recent convictions and steps taken, shows that there certainly is capacity within the PSNI to go after people and—if the evidence can be found—to enable a prosecution to take place.
On the question of legacy, under the previous Government’s Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023, which established the commission, every request for disclosure and information falls to the police service and other partners. That was already the case, regardless of anything contained in the legislation that we are currently taking through the House.
Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)
The people who planted this bomb in Dunmurry have set their faces against the people of Ireland, who made the decision long ago that the only route to constitutional change is a democratic one. They have attacked and tried to kill Irish police officers, they have murdered a young journalist in Derry, and just last weekend they have put children and babies in harm’s way. Will the Secretary of State confirm to the House today that the only route to achieving the united Ireland that some of us want to see is the democratic route laid out in the Good Friday agreement, and that it is up to those of us who want to see that happen to make the argument for it? These people are only an impediment to that change.
Hilary Benn
I say to my hon. Friend that the huge significance of the Good Friday agreement is that it charted a way forward and made clear the peaceful means by which those who wish to seek constitutional change in Northern Ireland can pursue it, but I also make the point that there never was any justification for the violence. There was always an alternative to the violence, and that was shown in the negotiation of the Good Friday agreement.
Mr Paul Kohler (Wimbledon) (LD)
I begin by praising the bravery of the police, the fire and ambulance services, and the delivery driver, all of whom put themselves in danger to prevent a tragedy.
I am sure the Secretary of State recognises that, as an act of terrorism, this is a matter of national security, which is the responsibility of the central Government. Unfortunately, whenever asked about funding to combat dissident republican terrorism, the Northern Ireland Office repeatedly points to general funding allocated to the Executive, as though the responsibility to combat such terrorism lies with them. Admittedly, some extra funding, as we have heard, is given for additional security funding, but that is intended to cover all forms of terrorist activity. It ignores the special circumstances in Northern Ireland, and has been described by the Police Federation for Northern Ireland as “minuscule”.
I want to press the Secretary of State on the same two questions. What additionally is he doing to ensure that the PSNI has adequate funding and resources to respond to the threat posed by dissident republican groups, and what discussions has he had with the Chief Constable, Jon Boutcher, and the Northern Ireland Executive to address their repeated concerns about PSNI funding?
Hilary Benn
Yes, it is a reserved matter, but there is a shared responsibility across Northern Ireland to defeat terrorism. That is a political responsibility and it is a policing and security responsibility. As I have set out to the House, the budget of the PSNI is determined by the Executive. We as a Government are playing our part by making sure there has been a record settlement. As I said, we have increased additional security funding for the first time in a decade, and the Home Office counter-terrorism grant was Barnetted across to the Northern Ireland Executive. It is for the Northern Ireland Executive to take the decisions about how they choose to spend the significant resources we are making available.
Katrina Murray (Cumbernauld and Kirkintilloch) (Lab)
I associate myself with the comments made by the hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sorcha Eastwood) and the Secretary of State about the bravery of the PSNI and the delivery driver. This attack serves as a timely reminder that, for a handful of individuals in Northern Ireland, a return to violence is never that far away. Given the unique challenges to their own safety that members of staff and police officers in the PSNI have to face on a daily basis—and tomorrow is International Workers’ Memorial Day—would the Secretary of State work with the Northern Ireland Executive to ensure that nobody should be going to work and not coming home?
Hilary Benn
I very much agree with my hon. Friend’s last point. I meet the Justice Minister, the police and security partners on a very regular basis, and we discuss all of these matters and review what has been happening. All I would say is that the reduction in the number of bombings and shootings in the past decade is very marked, and that is testament to the efforts of the police and security partners. In fairness, I should also remind the House that the threat assessment at the moment remains substantial. It was previously severe in the wake of the attempted murder of John Caldwell, but it is currently substantial, which means that an attack is likely.
Jim Allister (North Antrim) (TUV)
Following two car bomb attacks in one month, what my constituents want to know is what will be done to snuff out this terrorist threat before it develops further—and that must include dealing with the underfunding and the understaffing of the PSNI. Today the Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland called out some Northern Ireland political parties for their failure to give unconditional support to the PSNI, which means that many young PSNI officers cannot live in nationalist areas. Does the Secretary of State agree that those parties need to do more, and that, in particular, Sinn Féin must match its pious words with actions of unconditional support for the PSNI and cease lauding its former car bombers, which only gives support to the current generation of car bombers?
Hilary Benn
I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is the responsibility of all political leaders—indeed, of all in society in Northern Ireland—to give their full-hearted support to the Police Service of Northern Ireland, which is there to protect everyone from all communities and stands against those who would do the people of Northern Ireland harm. I think that that is a fundamental part of the responsibility that all of us have as political leaders.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
Jon Boutcher has been fairly critical of a number of political parties, including, it must be said, the party of government. He is clear about the fact that his force, the PSNI, is not funded like other forces across the United Kingdom, and he believes that that is partly due to legacy issues—a position that will be made far more acute by the Northern Ireland Troubles Bill. Does the Secretary of State agree with the Chief Constable or not?
Hilary Benn
I have had many conversations with the Chief Constable about funding and other matters. I would just point out, as I did a moment ago, that as a result of the provisions of the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023, which is the existing law under which everyone is operating at the moment, and the establishment of the legacy commission, the more cases the commission takes on—the number of cases is now over 100—the more there will be a requirement for disclosure anyway. What the Bill seeks to do is win the confidence of all communities in Northern Ireland so that this body, reformed, can hopefully enable all the families who are still looking for answers about how their loved ones died to find them.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
Let me say on behalf of my party that we condemn the bombing at the weekend and we thank the police for their actions, which ensured that there were not the casualties that we would otherwise be lamenting here today.
It is significant that the bomb was set off at the same time as Sinn Féin was holding its party conference, at which bombers of the past were being praised. That glorification of terrorism only stimulates terrorism again today. The logic is clear: if we can praise the bombers of the past, why can we not bomb in the present? While the First Minister has condemned the bombing, does the Secretary of State agree that the schizophrenic attitude that Sinn Féin has developed towards past terrorism and present terrorism is only perpetuating terrorism in our society, and continues to pump the poison of violence into our society? Will he call on the First Minister and her party to stop being ambivalent towards policing and stop being ambivalent towards past terrorism, and make it clear that terrorism has no place in society?
Hilary Benn
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his opening remarks. I have already said that I think that all politicians, in Northern Ireland and throughout the United Kingdom, have a responsibility to encourage support for the work of the PSNI. I also welcome the condemnation that has been heard from those across the political spectrum in Northern Ireland—including Sinn Féin, which has made it very clear, as has everyone else, that those who were responsible for the attack on Saturday and the previous attack in Lurgan have no support and no place in the new Northern Ireland.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Given what the Secretary of State said about the nature of the Lurgan bomb, it sounds as if these weapons are unsophisticated and presumably not detonated remotely. This must mean that the delivery drivers were in exceptional peril, because such crude devices could have gone off at any time. Will the Secretary of State confirm that he is liaising closely with people in the Republic of Ireland, and that their attitude is nowadays one of complete support for the discovery and prevention of a new version of the terrorism of the troubles?
Hilary Benn
For reasons that I hope the House will understand, I am not going to speculate about the nature of the devices, but the right hon. Gentleman is right: given that the device on Saturday did explode, the lives of the two delivery drivers were self-evidently in great peril at the time they were forced to convey the devices to the respective police stations. The condemnation of terrorism is seen right across Ireland—in Northern Ireland, as we have just been discussing, and in the Republic of Ireland. These people have no support whatsoever, and it is important that we find out who did it and hold them to account.
Josh Babarinde (Eastbourne) (LD)
I pay tribute to the courage of the delivery driver and to PSNI officers, whose bravery saved lives in this deplorable attack. I also want to use this opportunity to pay tribute to one of my predecessors, Ian Gow, who was murdered by the IRA in a car bomb attack outside his Eastbourne home in 1990. His memory is enshrined in this Chamber via a shield above the door.
As well as ensuring that the PSNI is resourced to ensure that terrorists face the full force of the law, can the Secretary of State tell us what assessment has been made of the threat that dissident republicans pose to the British mainland, with a view to ensuring that no community anywhere in the United Kingdom suffers what has scarred the people of Northern Ireland and the people of Eastbourne?
Hilary Benn
I join the hon. Member in remembering the late Ian Gow, who gave such distinguished service to this House and was killed in that terrible attack—one of a number of Members who suffered at the hands of terrorist violence in the past. The assessment of the nature of the threat—which is currently substantial and has previously been severe, as I am sure the hon. Member will know—is carried out by the Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre and is formally reviewed twice a year. I can assure him that JTAC’s staff take their job extremely seriously, and any information about any threats is circulated to all those who need to know.
Katie Lam (Weald of Kent) (Con)
We can all agree that the public should be protected from anybody who is willing to use violence against innocents and the police to get what they want, but I wonder how the right hon. Gentleman intends to enforce that. What message does he think it sends to those who have had the courage to protect the public, including British soldiers during the troubles, when this Government are making it easier for them to be dragged through the courts decades later?
Hilary Benn
I do not accept the hon. Member’s characterisation of what is in the troubles Bill that we will be discussing later, because the threshold consideration for prosecutions remains absolutely unchanged in the legislation currently before the House. However, I recognise that veterans are concerned about the impact that any changes may have on them. That is why the Government have put protections in the Bill and will bring forward further such proposals in Committee.
Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)
What price does the Secretary of State put on a Northern Ireland life? What price does he put on the lives of PSNI officers, whom we have praised in this House today for saving so many lives at the weekend? The majority of his answers at the start of this session referred to Barnett consequentials and budgets, not the people who went out of their way to save lives. Why do he and this Government believe that if terrorists in Northern Ireland are attacking Northern Ireland people, it is only a Northern Ireland problem?
Hilary Benn
Well, I do not accept that I said that it is only a Northern Ireland problem. The reason I answered questions relating to the funding is because I was asked by hon. and right hon. Members about the funding that the Government make available to the Executive in Northern Ireland, out of which the Executive take decisions about the funding of the PSNI. That is their responsibility. I simply say to the hon. Member that the lives of everyone in Northern Ireland—be they police officer or ordinary citizen—are beyond price.
Lincoln Jopp (Spelthorne) (Con)
It is hard to believe that it was 34 years ago that one of these proxy bombs was driven into my checkpoint in west Belfast. I remember it like it was yesterday. I agree with the Secretary of State that we must find the perpetrators of this evil act, and I, too, encourage the community to come forward, because that is where the answer lies. Will the Secretary of State ask the Chief Constable how many Police Service of Northern Ireland detectives are allocated to investigating legacy issues, versus those allocated to finding the perpetrators of the Dunmurry police station attack?
Hilary Benn
I will take the hon. Member’s question away. The allocation of resources is a matter for the Chief Constable. This is a very urgent investigation. I point out to him that one of the consequences of the legacy Act that the last Government passed was that responsibility for investigating troubles-related cases departed from the PSNI; it does not rest with the PSNI today, but with the legacy commission. It is the commission that does investigations in respect of the cases that have been referred to it, not the PSNI.
Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)
I, like every right-minded person, utterly condemn the abhorrent attack on Dunmurry PSNI station and the one on Lurgan in my constituency. I commend PSNI officers for their bravery in dealing with these attempts on their lives. Does the Secretary of State agree that Sinn Féin’s response drips with rank hypocrisy, condemning the bombers of today while glorifying, lauding and even erecting illegal statues to the bombers and terrorists of yesterday? Does he agree that the decision to put forward Órlaithí Flynn MLA—daughter of Patrick Flynn, convicted of an IRA bomb in Dunmurry—to condemn this attack was a calculated insult to victims and a grotesque reminder that Sinn Féin’s words condemn terrorism, but their politics still romanticise it? Surely the Government should reflect on their decision not to strengthen the legislation on glorification of terrorism and act to legislate against it immediately.
Hilary Benn
The hon. Member, quite rightly, speaks with great sincerity and anger about what has happened. On the very last point that she raised, she will be familiar with the provisions of the Terrorism Act 2006. As she will be aware, the Government have recently agreed to ask Jonathan Hall KC, the independent reviewer of terrorist legislation, to undertake a review of section 1 and report back.
Alex Easton (North Down) (Ind)
In the last year, there have been nine bomb attacks aimed at the PSNI from the men of darkness, who hide behind dark doors, in the dark and behind balaclavas. What action can the Secretary of State take to ensure that the PSNI has adequate funding? It is 700 police officers down, and the funding is still not in place. Will he agree to meet me and the Chief Constable to listen to those concerns about funding, so that we can beat the men of evil and not return to the past?
Hilary Benn
I know that the Police Service of Northern Ireland is treating this particular investigation with the urgency that it requires. Referring to the question from the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Lincoln Jopp)—I thank him once again for his service in Northern Ireland—what would help the police to bring the men of darkness to the light of justice is information that somebody probably knows. That information would enable people to be arrested and, if there is sufficient evidence, prosecuted for what they have done. That is the single most important contribution that can be made to assist the PSNI in trying to find out who was responsible.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Secretary of State for his answers. Police numbers, intelligence, CCTV, IRA infiltration, people sending information—those are all issues. It is beyond disappointing that this same New IRA was able to plan to hijack and deploy a second device in west Belfast without any prior interception. The Chief Constable of the PSNI and the Police Federation for Northern Ireland have continually highlighted a lack of resources for policing. Will the Secretary of State please explain whether the lack of ability to combat this group of murderous, terrorist thugs is due to failures in intelligence sharing—MI5, MI6, special branch—or to a lack of police service on the ground that affects patrolling in high-risk areas? More importantly, what steps will the Secretary of State undertake to address those issues?
Hilary Benn
There is a huge amount of effort going in, as I indicated earlier, and most of it is unseen by the general public for reasons that everyone in the House will understand. As much information as can be gathered on what these people are seeking to do, we seek to acquire, but we either have to catch people in the act or get information from those who know who was responsible in order to see them prosecuted. It cannot be just left to the PSNI and our security partners, who once again I pay tribute to; they do a truly extraordinary job on behalf of us all, but they need some help from others who have information that they can bring to bear, so that people are held to account for what they have done.
Lord Mandelson Humble Address: Government Response Update
(3 weeks ago)
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The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Darren Jones)
Given the upcoming Prorogation and state opening of Parliament, I thought it would be helpful to return to the House to provide an update on the progress the Government have made to respond to the Humble Address of 4 February as quickly and thoroughly as possible.
As Members will know, the Government published the first tranche of material on 11 March. That first tranche primarily related to the aspects of the motion regarding Peter Mandelson’s appointment and his subsequent dismissal as ambassador, in addition to the details of his severance payment provided to him by the Foreign Office. Following the publication of the first tranche of material, we have been working at pace to lay a second tranche before the House. The House will recognise, given the breadth of the motion, that a very significant number of documents have been found to be in scope and that it is taking time to process them accordingly.
The Cabinet Office team responsible for the Government’s response to the Humble Address has been working through a large quantity of material, working closely with many officials across Whitehall, particularly in the Foreign Office. The team has been seeking to take an approach to sifting and publishing information that allows it to respond to the will of this House thoroughly but expeditiously, and in line with the approach taken by previous Governments in responding to Humble Addresses. This includes co-ordinating a number of requests to Government Departments to identify documents potentially in scope of the Humble Address, particularly electronic communications and the minutes of meetings between individuals and Peter Mandelson. This is the section of the motion that has the broadest scope.
As Members will have seen from the first tranche, the Government cannot publish certain details, such as the names of junior officials, personal information or legally privileged information. Separately, in line with the process agreed by the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament, the Government will not publish information that undermines or threatens our country’s national security or international relations. As colleagues will appreciate, both those processes require detailed consideration. The Government are very grateful to the ISC for its constructive engagement in that process, which we recognise has constituted significant additional work on top of its existing responsibilities. As I have set out previously, the Cabinet Office has also been working with the Metropolitan police to avoid prejudicing a live police investigation.
I can confirm that by the end of today, the Cabinet Office will have passed to the ISC all the material it has processed as part of the Humble Address and judged to be prejudicial to national security or international relations. This has amounted to over 300 individual documents. It includes a number that are relevant to the processes of Peter Mandelson’s security vetting, too. As I mentioned earlier, I am very grateful to the ISC for the important role it continues to play in the Humble Address process, and for the speed with which it is processing the documents.
I would like to reassure colleagues that Parliament will receive the second tranche of material as soon as possible following the state opening and the conclusion of the work of the ISC, and I will return to the House at that point. I commend this statement to the House.
Alex Burghart (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con)
I thank the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister for advance sight of his statement and for taking this statement himself; it is good of him not to delegate. This was not his mess—that was the 2024 Budget—but I am afraid it is now his mess to clear up.
I have to ask: where are the documents? The Humble Address was nearly 12 weeks ago. I remind the right hon. Gentleman that on that occasion the House asked for a huge range of things: the due diligence document that was passed to No. 10; the conflict of interest form; the material that the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office and the Cabinet Office provided to UK Security Vetting about Peter Mandelson; papers for and minutes of meetings relating to the decision to appoint Lord Mandelson; electronic communications; and so on. Where are they? Since February, the Government have asserted that they are working with urgency and that everything will be available very shortly, that they are working, in that least reassuring of Government phrases, “at pace”, and—today’s favourite—that the information will be available as soon as possible. That is, no doubt, as soon as possible after the local elections.
In the documents that have been released, what we appear to see is either an enormous cover-up or a very significant breakdown in the expected process of government. We have seen nothing from the Prime Minister, nothing from his chief of staff and nothing from Peter Mandelson himself; we have seen no minutes of meetings, no billets-doux, no annotations and no box returns. The official civil service guidance on this matter says explicitly:
“Keep submissions with ministers’ comments. If ministers write on a hard copy, keep the minister’s handwritten comments. Keep correspondence reporting ministers’ responses along with background provided to ministers in the medium in which they were created”.
We have seen none of this. This is either a cover-up or a terrible return to the days of sofa government under Tony Blair.
Simon Case told the Prime Minister that in order to complete due process, there had to be security clearance before he made the appointment, and a conflict of interest declaration had to be made by Peter Mandelson. To date, we have seen none of that information. I am pleased to hear the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister say that material associated with Mandelson’s vetting is now being handed to the ISC, but where is the conflict of interest form? I hope it is not the case that this is being disguised as personal information of the sort that the right hon. Gentleman said would not be disclosed, and I would be grateful if he could confirm that it is not.
I would also like the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister to confirm that that declaration of interest form exists. There is no good reason why he cannot tell us whether it does. Indeed, the former Attorney General wrote the other day in the papers that there is no legal reason why the Government cannot tell us which documents are being retained by the Metropolitan police. There should be a catalogue of all documents that exist; even if the House cannot look at them, we should be allowed to know what is out there and what will come to us in due course. The titles of documents will themselves not prejudice a trial.
The Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister has today talked about the non-disclosure of personal information. I ask him again to tell us about the conflict of interest form and whether Peter Mandelson’s personal information is considered to be in scope of that ruling. Will he set out the Government’s precise approach to redactions vis-à-vis the documents that will be given to this House, rather than the ISC? It will be useful to understand his thinking.
On electronic communications, despite this being in the Humble Address on 4 February, I understand from the Cabinet Secretary, who wrote to me over the weekend, that there was no instruction to hand over non-corporate comms until 13 March—about five weeks after the Humble Address. Why this delay? Is the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister confident that no material was deleted in that five-week period? How can he be sure?
I again ask the right hon. Gentleman to confirm or deny whether the ISC release contains the information about Lord Mandelson’s interests. This is of specific concern to the House, given how Peter Mandelson may have behaved when he was ambassador in Washington and given the meetings that he may have taken the Prime Minister to.
It is time the Government come clean—not on their own terms or to their own timetable, but on the terms set down by the House. Will the right hon. Gentleman finally tell us a hard deadline for when these documents will be handed over?
Darren Jones
The hon. Gentleman asked me a number of questions, which I will take in turn. To the question of where the documents are, those in scope of the Humble Address are currently in one of three locations: first, with the Government waiting for the publication of the second tranche; secondly, with the Intelligence and Security Committee; and thirdly, with the Metropolitan police. We have sought to publish all those documents—those that the Government hold and those that the Intelligence and Security Committee are considering—in a combined bundle, in order to aid the House to see the documents in a chronological order. Otherwise, I suspect there would be questions about what documents were missing, subject to the conclusion of the Committee’s work.
I can confirm that documents that relate to Peter Mandelson’s security vetting have been passed to the Intelligence and Security Committee today, and that we intend to publish those as part of the second tranche, subject to discussions with the Intelligence and Security Committee.
I was asked specifically about the documents that have been given to the Metropolitan police. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that I have been advised by the Metropolitan police that I am unable to list those documents, and so I will not seek to do so. He asked me about redactions policy; obviously the key redactions policy is in relation to information that the Government consider to be prejudicial to national security or international relations. That goes through the Intelligence and Security Committee for consideration. If there is a disagreement between the Government and the Committee, there is a process of redactions hearings between them to resolve that.
As I mentioned in my statement, other redactions relate merely to information such as the names and contact details of junior officials, in line with established freedom of information policy as it relates to the publication of Humble Addresses.
Clive Efford (Eltham and Chislehurst) (Lab)
The whole House came together around the Humble Address on the basis that Parliament had found its way forward to deal with the evidence around the appointment of Peter Mandelson. Will my right hon. Friend guarantee the House that no documents are being withheld? Around the time that it was reported that the Prime Minister had not been told that Peter Mandelson had failed his security vetting, there were civil servants who were seeking to withhold documents. Can he give an assurance that that is no longer the case?
Darren Jones
As has been alluded to at the Dispatch Box, there were documents that the Humble Address warranted to be published as part of that process. The Cabinet Office was very clear about that. It took some time to get access to some of those documents, specifically in relation to UKSV recommendations. That has now concluded and the documents are going through the Intelligence and Security Committee, as I set out in my statement.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
Lisa Smart (Hazel Grove) (LD)
I thank the Chief Secretary for advance sight of his statement. The women and girls who spoke out against Jeffrey Epstein and those connected to him did so at enormous personal cost. We must never lose sight of the fact that their bravery is the reason we are having this conversation at all.
The Prime Minister promised honesty, integrity and accountability. Instead, we have a tawdry saga of a political ally waved through despite serious security concerns, a senior civil servant forced out, and a Government who have descended into recrimination and infighting rather than dealing with the very serious issues the country faces. Parliament asked for transparency, and the public deserves answers. Every day this drags on, trust in our institutions erodes further.
Even though Lord Mandelson has stepped away from the House of Lords, will the Government bring in formal legislation to revoke his peerage? Will the Chief Secretary confirm whether the Government plan to bring in further legislation for much-needed reform of the other place? The deputy Chair of the Intelligence and Security Committee, the right hon. and learned Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Sir Jeremy Wright), asked in business questions on Thursday about potential further redactions made on grounds other than national security or international relations. Will the Chief Secretary confirm that there have been no redactions in what he said will be sent to the Committee by the end of today?
It has been reported that the Prime Minister is set to whip Labour MPs to oppose his referral to the Privileges Committee. Even Boris Johnson did not block his MPs from voting for scrutiny. Labour MPs must surely be given a free vote and not be forced into feeling like accomplices to a cover up. Will the Chief Secretary confirm whether Labour MPs will be whipped on tomorrow’s vote or not?
Darren Jones
It is not for the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister to speak about whipping arrangements at the Dispatch Box. I will leave that to the Chief Whip and the usual channels. The hon. Lady asked me two questions about reform to the other place, in particular the removal of peerages. I can confirm that legislation will be introduced shortly to bring forward the proposals that I have talked about at the Dispatch Box. She asked me further questions about redactions policy; I refer to my previous answer on that question.
Ms Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)
The pain of the Epstein victims sits heavy with all of us in this House because we expect the highest standards of all of us. The challenge with this incident is that it involves a convoluted process that raises difficult questions about Government vetting and appointments. Given that, can my right hon. Friend tell us when he expects the Adrian Fulford review, which is to identify whether any other cases of concern have come to light about how appointments have been made, to be completed?
Darren Jones
My hon. Friend is exactly right to raise that question. The terms of reference have been confirmed with Adrian Fulford. That work has been started, and I expect it to complete in three to four weeks’ time.
Sir Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth and Southam) (Con)
I thank the Minister for his kind words about the hard work of the Intelligence and Security Committee. He will recognise and want to reflect with the House that we cannot work any faster than the speed at which the documents are given to us by the Government; the last of them, as he said, is being given to us today. The process will not be complete by Prorogation, as perhaps it should have been.
I would like to raise two points of concern in what the Minister has said to us this afternoon. The first is about redaction. He has made it clear that the Government intend to redact for reasons beyond the Humble Address exemption related to international relations and national security; he has described that as the names of junior officials, personal information or legally privileged information. On Thursday, I put it to the Leader of the House that the Government document describing their approach to redactions is substantially wider than that. It says:
“It may also be necessary for the government to make further redactions in future publications based on other public interest principles, including”—
but of course not limited to—
“commercially sensitive information.”
Will the Minister please, either today or in writing, explain clearly on what grounds the Government intend to redact these documents? If, as I suspect, some of the grounds on which the Government propose to redact are beyond the scope of the Humble Address, will he confirm that the Government must return to this House and seek consent so to do?
With your indulgence, Madam Deputy Speaker, my final point is also about redaction. The Minister has said in his statement that the Government will not publish information that undermines or threatens our country’s national security or international relations. As he knows, in accordance with the process agreed, it will be for the Intelligence and Security Committee to determine those questions, not the Government—won’t it?
Darren Jones
I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for his question and confirm that the Government share the view that it is not the fault of the Intelligence and Security Committee that documents are not yet ready to be published; we hope that they will be ready shortly after the state opening of Parliament.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman asked me about redactions policy. I refer him to my earlier answer, but he did ask me some specific questions; I commit to seeking further advice on those and returning to the Dispatch Box. I hope that he and the House know that my intention, from the beginning of when I was asked to do this process, has been to ensure proper transparency with Parliament, which I and the Government take very seriously. If there is any suggestion otherwise, I will answer questions about that here at the Dispatch Box.
The right hon. and learned Gentleman’s second question has fallen out of my mind.
Sir Jeremy Wright
Forgive me, Madam Deputy Speaker. It was about whether the Minister would confirm that it will be the ISC that determines redactions on the basis of international relations and national security.
Darren Jones
I can confirm that the Government’s agreed process with the Committee stands.
Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)
I thank the Chief Secretary for his statement. I am interested in the costs. We know about the £75,000 payout, and obviously a police inquiry is incredibly costly. There are the costs to his Department in complying with the Humble Address. Will he publish the costs? Will he also publish the costs in relation to Global Counsel? Its clients included Palantir, with which the Government have £800 million-worth of contracts. Will he publish how much money Global Counsel had been able to procure from the Government for being able to advance Palantir’s business interests at the time of Peter Mandelson’s appointment?
Darren Jones
My best answer is to refer my hon. Friend to the contracts finder tool, which publishes all public procurement contracts and their value. In relation to questions of the internal cost of processing the Humble Address, I cannot commit to give a round number; essentially it involves lots of hours of civil servants’ time across Government. They are working very hard to be able to publish these documents as quickly as possible.
Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)
May I, through the right hon. Gentleman, thank the officials in the Cabinet Office who have assisted me in the work that I have been doing in this area as Chairman of the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee? He will know that not all Government communications are carried on Government devices. Will he, for the benefit of the House, explain what is being done and what can be done to secure and get into the right domain correspondence between the principal players who have used their personal devices, rather than their Government devices? Will he also assure the House that when he and his colleagues do the sift as to who sees what and when, parliamentary privilege and all that that means is still absolutely at the heart of the decisions that he and his officials take?
Darren Jones
The tranche of documents will be published in the normal way to ensure that parliamentary privilege is attached to those documents and any debate that we subsequently have in relation to them. The hon. Gentleman asked me questions about personal devices and personal communications channels, which we refer to as “non-corporate communications channels” or “NCCCs” in the documents that we have published. I confirm that all relevant stakeholders who had to consider submissions to the Humble Address process have been told that that includes their personal devices and personal channels as well as any Government-owned devices and Government channels. I thank him again for his work and confirm to the House that he, as Chair of the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee, kindly agreed to look at documents given to the Metropolitan police in relation to the police investigation so that we had a way—albeit a closed way—of showing due process and transparency to the House in relation to the Humble Address.
Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab)
Further to the security vetting issue in relation to Peter Mandelson, last week in the Chamber I asked questions—including to the Minister and through a point of order to the Speaker —three times, but I have not had an answer, so I would really appreciate an answer. At the point at which the Prime Minister’s former chief of staff Morgan McSweeney was involved in the appointment of Mandelson, did he himself have security vetting? On what date was Morgan McSweeney granted developed vetting clearance? Prior to that date, did Morgan McSweeney ever handle documents for which he would have required developed vetting clearance? I asked that three times in the Chamber but have not had an answer. I would be really grateful if the Minister could answer.
Darren Jones
The House will appreciate that I cannot comment on individual applications of policy in relation to private individuals who are no longer employed by the Government, but I reassure my hon. Friend and the House that all appropriate processes were followed.
Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)
In respect of the Humble Address, perhaps contrary to what was suggested earlier, the House agreed to it only on the basis that Labour MPs were about to rebel against the position that the Government had adopted. Tomorrow, something similar may arise in respect of a potential referral of the Prime Minister to the Privileges Committee. Surely the Chief Secretary has an opinion as to whether his Members behind him would want to have a free vote in respect of whether the Prime Minister has misled the House.
Darren Jones
I always enjoy the right hon. Gentleman’s interventions, but that did not pertain to the statement before us. [Interruption.]
Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. [Interruption.]. Are we all finished? I thank the Chief Secretary for returning to the House again on this issue. Will he reiterate how due process for the conducting of security vetting before appointments are announced will change as a result of this affair?
Darren Jones
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. As has been said at the Dispatch Box before, it was previously due process that for the appointments of ambassadors and direct ministerial appointments, vetting took place after the announcement and before the commencement of the contract for employment. Given the problems that have been shown to be applicable to these processes, that has now changed.
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
A referral to the Privileges Committee has always been considered a House matter—a matter for the individual judgment of Members of Parliament. It would be an abomination if it were to be whipped by either side, wouldn’t it?
Darren Jones
I refer the right hon. Gentleman to my previous answer.
Sarah Russell (Congleton) (Lab)
Could my right hon. Friend the Minister please confirm whether any documents that were previously in the scope of the Humble Address have been deemed no longer to be within its scope due to the application of litigation privilege in respect of the dismissal of Olly Robbins?
Darren Jones
I am afraid I do not know the answer to that question, but I commit myself to taking it away.
Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con)
I am just a humble Member of this House, and it is our job to hold the Government to account. It was unclear from the Minister’s first response what the process will be, so could he clarify again whether, if the ISC members disagree with the Government, that matter will be brought back to the House for a decision? I do not believe it is right for the Government to judge and mark their own homework.
Darren Jones
I refer to my previous answer about standing by the commitment made between the Government and the Committee. There is an established process for any disagreement through a redactions hearing.
Perran Moon (Camborne and Redruth) (Lab)
The worst outcome from this process is that a police investigation is compromised by materials making their way into the public domain before time. While Opposition MPs seek to rush this process through, can the Chief Secretary confirm that no documents of interest will be put in the public domain until they have been cleared by the Met police? [Interruption.] If Opposition Members want to know how Labour voters are going to vote tomorrow, they just need to join the Labour party.
Darren Jones
My hon. Friend asks an important question. As has been said before, at the heart of this entire scandal are the victims of the most heinous crimes who have yet to see any justice whatsoever, apart from this becoming part of big political debates here in the UK and in other countries. That is why the Government have been absolutely committed to supporting the Metropolitan police in its criminal investigation. We continue to do so, and we would not do anything to undermine that process because the victims have to come first.
Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)
I am grateful to the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister for his statement. He said that,
“in line with the process agreed by the Intelligence and Security Committee, the Government will not publish information that undermines or threatens our country’s national security or international relations.”
That sentence is correct, but it implies that this is a Government process that the ISC has acceded to, and that is not quite right. Rather, the Government propose redactions and the ISC directs that redactions be made on the basis that full publication would be prejudicial to national security or international relations. This matters because we want to maintain trust in the Intelligence and Security Committee, of which I am a member. Does the Chief Secretary accept that the Government propose redactions and that the ISC considers them and directs which ones should be made?
Darren Jones
The hon. Gentleman sets out the process that has been agreed between the Committee and the Government and, as I have said to other members of the Committee, that process stands.
Sean Woodcock (Banbury) (Lab)
This has been a very damaging issue. Peter Mandelson should clearly never have been made ambassador, and I am pleased that the Prime Minister has rightly apologised. There are, however, lessons to be learned already before the end of this Humble Address process. Can the Minister confirm that his Department has already started learning and implementing those lessons?
Darren Jones
My hon. Friend is right. There is a whole series of processes that this Government inherited as the status quo, including the due process from the previous Administration that was used in the past for other political appointments and direct ministerial appointments. This episode has shown that those processes needed to be updated, and the Government are working on modernising those rules and will bring those reforms to the House in due course.
Esther McVey (Tatton) (Con)
Is there any truth in the claims that the delay in the Government adhering to the Humble Address motion is because Cabinet Ministers are refusing to hand over their mobile phones because of the messages between them and Mandelson that they contain, and the embarrassment that that will cause them?
Darren Jones
Cabinet Ministers have received instructions from the Cabinet Office about the declaration of the information that they hold on either corporate or personal communications channels, and they have all complied with that direction.
Richard Tice (Boston and Skegness) (Reform)
With regard to the release of these Mandelson documents, there is genuine concern about what may be redacted and what may not. Given the ongoing dispute as to the pressure brought to bear between No. 10 and the Foreign Office, can the Minister confirm that nothing will be redacted with regard to pressure brought to bear on the Foreign Office about the vetting process?
Darren Jones
Redactions are done in line with the policy I set out previously.
Dr Kieran Mullan (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)
I politely say that the Minister’s overly sincere, butter-wouldn’t-melt-in-his-mouth act is beginning to wear thin—the way he suggests that the process he is going through has not put a foot wrong. He has repeatedly failed to answer questions that I put to him with candour around Mandelson, despite the fact that this evening we will pass a Bill that makes it law for Ministers to answer questions.
Can I follow up on the questions around mobile phones? Ministers will be asked whether they have any communications left on their personal phones. Are they also being asked to tell you, and will we be told, if those messages have disappeared because they have disappearing messages on their phones?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Order. Let us keep our questions short and omit the word “you” because I am not responding.
Darren Jones
I am sorry that the hon. Member is not happy with my performance—I will try harder in future. In relation to his question, I refer him to my previous answer.
Alison Bennett (Mid Sussex) (LD)
What is the Department’s internal deadline for concluding the release of the Mandelson files? If there is an internal deadline, who will be held accountable if the Department fails to meet it?
Darren Jones
The Department has now handed over all the final documents that it needs to hand over to the Intelligence and Security Committee. Once that process is able to conclude, we will publish the second tranche shortly after that.
Sir Alec Shelbrooke (Wetherby and Easingwold) (Con)
The truth of the matter is when the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister says that process was followed to appoint a diplomat, a professional diplomat would not have been appointed if they had taken dodgy loans, tried to flog passports and leaked to the Chinese and the Russians, so that was not the case. The motion on the Humble Address got through this House because it said that all documents would be handed to the ISC, because that is the most secure place for them to go. It is not in the gift of the Government not to hand this over—that was the view of the House. This is not being done in good faith. When will all these documents be given to the ISC, which was exactly what this House said should be done?
Darren Jones
I answered that question in my opening statement. All final documents relevant to the ISC process are being handed over today.
Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
Today’s statement is interesting, but we need to remember how we got here in the first place: the Prime Minister is facing allegations that he misled the House about the process by which an individual was appointed who had well-documented associations with a convicted paedophile and human trafficker. The Chief Secretary said yesterday that the Committee of Privileges is reserved for the most serious allegations. Does he recognise how that belittles what has been suffered by the victims and survivors?
Darren Jones
I am not quite clear what the question was in relation to the Humble Address. In relation to the Committee of Privileges motion before the House tomorrow, I refer to my previous answer.
Paul Holmes (Hamble Valley) (Con)
Last week, I asked the Prime Minister if he would publish his decision note on the box note given to him on 11 November from Simon Case. The Prime Minister said he could not remember the answer in that box note, and in the debate last week, the Minister himself said that redactions are only in black. The decision response on the box note has been left blank. Was there a decision, why has it not been published and will the Minister now undertake to publish the decision on that request from Simon Case, because this House and I believe that it will be fundamental to see whether the Prime Minister is actually telling the truth?
Darren Jones
I am happy to reconfirm that all redactions are in black in the documents that are being published in the Humble Address tranches. All documents that the Government hold in relation to that period of time have been published in the first tranche. Of course, decisions are communicated sometimes orally and sometimes in writing. The hon. Gentleman also asked me specifically about Simon Case’s advice and the process that was followed subsequently. I refer him to the letter published this afternoon from the previous Cabinet Secretary, who confirmed to the Prime Minister that due process had been followed.
Mr Lee Dillon (Newbury) (LD)
How does the Prime Minister’s promise of delivering honesty, integrity and accountability reconcile with the potential blocking of a motion to the Committee of Privileges? If the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister is not willing to comment on the Government’s voting intentions tomorrow, will he commit to accountability by ensuring that he votes in favour for it being referred to the Committee?
Darren Jones
I am not sure that I should declare my voting intention from the Dispatch Box, but I refer the hon. Gentleman to my previous answer.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
The Government are keen to emphasise their transparency in the course of dealing with the Humble Address requests and demands, so here is an opportunity to put that to the test. Last Tuesday, I put down a question for written answer by the Prime Minister:
“To ask the Prime Minister who first suggested to him that Peter Mandelson should be appointed as Ambassador to the United States.”
It was accepted and published as such by the Table Office. Subsequently, it has been transferred to the Cabinet Office, for which he has responsibility. It is due to be answered tomorrow. Will the Minister give the answer to that question tomorrow, on time and substantively?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
The Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister’s responsibilities are just growing and growing!
Darren Jones
I am deeply grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker. I always ensure that I honour parliamentary questions in a timely fashion.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Minister for his statement— he is a decent and honourable man. In phone calls to my office only this morning, Strangford constituents have expressed their dismay about Government cover-ups. Even my constituents’ bank account comings and goings are questioned, and when they make withdrawals, they are asked where their money is from and what it is for. There is a perception out there that there is one rule for the Government of the day and another for everyone else. How can the Minister begin to show people that we are all accountable to scrutiny?
Darren Jones
The Humble Address is an example of Parliament holding the Government to account, and of the Government being accountable to Parliament.
Dame Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con)
Could the Chief Secretary confirm that responses to submissions are written on the paper of the submissions, and not on Post-it notes?
Lincoln Jopp (Spelthorne) (Con)
I thank the Minister for his statement, in which he said that
“the Government will not publish information that undermines or threatens our country’s national security or international relations.”
My question is: in whose judgment? Ultimately, is that the judgment of an official or of a Minister? If it is that of a Minister, which one?
Darren Jones
In the first instance, officials make those judgments and refer those requests to the Intelligence and Security Committee, where parliamentarians take a view.
Jerome Mayhew (Broadland and Fakenham) (Con)
One of the glaring omissions in the first release of documentation was the Prime Minister’s response to his box notes about the proposed appointment of Peter Mandelson. The Government have now had three months to think about it. Will the Minister set out whether there is any reason why those documents will not be part of the next release?
Darren Jones
All the documents that the Government hold in relation to the initial appointment and subsequent dismissal have been published in the first tranche, and all subsequent relevant documents will be published in the second.
Mr Louie French (Old Bexley and Sidcup) (Con)
When he was asked on 20 April why there is no record of his and Peter Mandelson’s meeting with Palantir in Washington, the Prime Minister said:
“That was a routine meeting in the course of a visit I was on in the US.”—[Official Report, 20 April 2026; Vol. 784, c. 62.]
Does the Minister agree that that was a routine meeting, and if so, where is the record of it, as required by the ministerial code?
Darren Jones
As the Prime Minister said, that was part of a series of visits that he was undertaking. It is of course proper that closed-door meetings between Ministers and stakeholders are attended by officials, minuted and reported in the normal way, but when visits are undertaken, they are managed differently. This was no secret to anyone; photos were taken and published on the Government’s social media account.
Harriet Cross (Gordon and Buchan) (Con)
The shadow Chancellor for the Duchy of Lancaster has asked today and previously, as have other Conservative Members, about the existence or not of a declaration of interests form for Mandelson. Does that form exist?
Darren Jones
All relevant documents will be published in the normal way.
David Reed (Exmouth and Exeter East) (Con)
The Minister says that 300 documents have now been shared with the ISC, but how many are left to be processed? More importantly, what has the process been in ascertaining a document’s relevance, and who decides whether a document is important?
Darren Jones
The Cabinet Office has now processed all the documents ready for the second tranche. In relation to the Intelligence and Security Committee, those final documents have been sent or will be sent today. In relation to who decides whether a document is referred to the Committee, that is based on officials screening each document to see whether they engage international relations or national security, and whether they warrant a redaction request.
Points of Order
(3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate
Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. When I asked how the Government intend to vote tomorrow, the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister said that he would not answer, because the question did not pertain to the motion before us. He then used that as a justification for not answering the questions of numerous Opposition Members. How are we supposed to get an answer from a Minister when they believe themselves to be not only a member of the Cabinet, but the Speaker, or perhaps a Deputy Speaker, of the House of Commons?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
The right hon. Member has got his point on the record. Unfortunately, I am not responsible for the content of Ministers’ speeches, let alone the answers—if only we were. We do not want to continue this debate, but that point is, no doubt, now on the record.
Alex Burghart (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. On this afternoon’s carry-over motion on the Government’s Northern Ireland Troubles Bill, over the weekend, the Government briefed journalists that they would bring forward amendments to the Bill in order to give Members reassurance that adequate protection would be given to veterans. However, this morning, no Government amendments appeared on the amendment paper. Is there anything that His Majesty’s Opposition can do to require the Government to publish those amendments in advance of this afternoon’s debate?
Madam Deputy Speaker
The Chair has no power to compel the Government to produce amendments earlier than the tabling deadline set out in the Standing Orders. However, those on the Treasury Bench will have heard the hon. Member’s comments. When we consider the carry-over motion later—there is some time for that—he will have a chance to raise the matter with the Secretary of State, who will no doubt be back in the Chamber.
Paul Holmes (Hamble Valley) (Con)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have to admit that I am confused, which is not unusual. I seek your guidance. The Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister said that documents have been published in the first tranche relating to the box note issued to the Prime Minister on 11 November by Simon Case. I asked the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister whether that had been redacted, and he said to me that redactions are in black. The Prime Minister’s decision box is blank. I have asked three times now; why is there no response, and why has that not been published? No Minister has answered that for me. My question to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, is: where can I go to get an answer?
Madam Deputy Speaker
The hon. Member is a very professional Member of Parliament, and will no doubt know which other avenues he can take to get the answer. Unfortunately, I am not responsible for the answers that Ministers give here in the Chamber, but he will no doubt use every opportunity to hold the Minister to account.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Over a number of weeks, I have been raising the issue of Labour Together and its link with the agency APCO Worldwide. APCO prepared a report for Labour Together that smeared journalists. I called for an inquiry into Labour Together. A number of hon. Members then submitted subject access requests to both Labour Together and APCO. Labour Together has gone for an extension, and the three-month period should be up shortly, but a number of us received responses from APCO. I raised this in the House; the responses were heavily redacted, but they demonstrated that APCO was collecting information on hon. Members of Parliament. Last week, a whistleblower—this is before the London Court of International Arbitration at the moment—confirmed that APCO had instructed one of the freelance employees involved in the investigations to destroy materials related to the investigation, and evidence. May I request again that Members on the Treasury Bench take back to the Prime Minister that we need a full, independent inquiry on the role that Labour Together, and APCO in particular, has played?
Madam Deputy Speaker
I thank the right hon. Member for his point of order. The Government’s decision on whether to undertake an inquiry on the subject is not a matter for the Chair. However, his comments will have been heard by the Front-Bench team, and they will take action, if they wish to.
David Davis (Goole and Pocklington) (Con)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is a rather more mundane point of order. Last Thursday, my website, provided by the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, was compromised. Malicious links were inserted, redirecting users to south-east Asian gambling websites. I guess it could be worse. We took the site down immediately. It was restored, but then came under a sustained distributed denial of service attack traceable to China. In just 24 hours, the site was hit with 142 million requests, consuming nearly 800 gigabytes of data. This is not a minor nuisance; it is direct interference with a Member of Parliament carrying out his duties. What are the House and the House authorities doing to prevent these kinds of attacks on Members’ websites, and to help MPs protect themselves against interference by a foreign state?
Madam Deputy Speaker
I thank the right hon. Member for his point of order, and for raising this very serious matter. It would not be appropriate to discuss publicly the details of preventive action, and of how Members are supported to protect themselves against these kinds of cyber-threats. If Members would like security advice on how to make personal accounts and devices more resilient, they should contact the Parliamentary Security Department. For matters relating to parliamentary accounts or equipment, Members should contact the Parliamentary Digital Service through the PDS service desk.
Bills Presented
English Devolution and Community Empowerment Bill
Monday 27th April 2026
(3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026 View all English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026 Debates Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Commons Consideration of Lords Message as at 27 April 2026 - large print - (27 Apr 2026)
18:51 - The House divided: - Ayes: 273 / Noes: 167 - Question accordingly agreed to.
19:05 - The House divided: - Ayes: 270 / Noes: 170 - Question accordingly agreed to.
19:17 - The House divided: - Ayes: 269 / Noes: 170 - Question accordingly agreed to.
19:29 - The House divided: - Ayes: 271 / Noes: 171 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
I confirm that nothing in the Lords message engages Commons financial privilege.
Clause 2
Areas of competence
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government (Miatta Fahnbulleh)
I beg to move,
That this House does not insist on its disagreement to Lords Amendment 2 but proposes Amendment (a) to the Lords Amendment.
Madam Deputy Speaker
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following Government motions:
That this House disagrees with the Lords in their Amendments 89B and 89C.
That this House insists on its disagreement with the Lords in their Amendments 36, 90 and 155, insists on its amendments 155A to 155F to the words restored to the Bill by that disagreement with Amendment 155, and proposes further Amendment (a) to the words so restored to the Bill by that disagreement.
That this House insists on its disagreement with the Lords in their Amendments 37 and 91, does not insist on its amendment 37A in lieu, and proposes Amendments (a) to (c) to the Bill in lieu of those amendments.
That this House disagrees with the Lords in their Amendments 94B and 94C.
That this House insists on its disagreement with the Lords in their Amendments 85 and 86, 97 to 116, 120, 121 and 123 but proposes Amendments (a) to (h) to the Bill in lieu of those amendments.
Miatta Fahnbulleh
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak once again on the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Bill. I am pleased that we have worked constructively throughout the Bill’s passage to ensure that the Bill is as strong as possible. We have engaged in good faith with Members from across the House and incorporated their feedback. With that, I turn to the amendments that remain in scope for ping-pong.
Lords amendment 2 seeks to add “rural affairs” as a distinct area of competence in clause 2 of the Bill. As I have said before, there is no difference in policy intent here; the Government’s position remains that those matters are captured in the existing areas of competence. Nevertheless, we recognise the strength of feeling that has been expressed by noble Lords in the other place. As we extend devolution beyond the predominately urban centres of England, it is right that strategic authorities look to use the powers and funding at their disposal to support communities across a wide range of geographies, whether urban, rural or coastal. The Government are therefore prepared to accept the addition of “rural affairs” and “coastal communities” to the list of subjects included in the areas of competence.
Hon. Members will know that the Government’s objective is for every part of England to benefit from devolution, and that we want this to be fundamentally a bottom-up process. For the benefit of the House, I will repeat the Government’s commitment not to commence the ministerial powers of direction to establish non-mayoral strategic authorities or expand existing strategic authorities without local consent for a period of two years following Royal Assent. This is the approach that we have taken in conversation and engagement with local authorities in order to form foundation strategic authorities, and this is the approach that we continue to take. At the same time, we have listened carefully to concerns raised by some in this House and in the other place about the backstop powers set out in schedule 1. We therefore propose removing the power for the Secretary of State to establish a mayor in an area without local consent.
On brownfield land, the Government fully agree on the importance of prioritising the development of brownfield land. As previous stated, planning policies and decisions are, and should be made, under the national planning policy framework. It remains the right place to set clear expectations on how and where developments should come forward. I have previously set out that imposing a legal requirement in the Bill would risk undermining effective plan-making and local flexibility in supporting sustainable development. The Government consider the amendment passed by the other place to be impractical, as it would undermine effective plan-making, limit consideration of local circumstances, and create inconsistency between the requirements for spatial development strategies prepared by mayors and strategic authorities, and those prepared by upper-tier county councils and unitary authorities. I therefore invite hon. Members to reject the amendment in lieu on brownfield land.
Let me turn to the issue of local authority governance arrangements. We remain firmly of the view that executive models of governance—in particular, the leader and cabinet model—provide the clearest and most transparent decision-making in local government. We continue to believe that our approach strikes the right balance between encouraging a more consistent model of governance across England’s local authorities and respecting local democratic mandates and decisions where a committee-run council has adopted its governance model more recently. We have got the balance right; we have listened and adapted, and we do not intend to go further. I invite hon. Members to reject the Lords amendment.
I recognise the strength of feeling about the role of town and parish councils in neighbourhood governance. The Government have considered Lords amendments 37 and 91 carefully, and we cannot accept an amendment that would undermine the principles of autonomy and localism. The creation of new parish councils is for local authorities to decide on, based on their community’s needs. Central Government should not intervene and direct that any particular model of neighbourhood governance is right for a place.
However, we have proposed a further amendment, building on our previous commitments. The new change requires local authorities to engage with town and parish councils where appropriate regarding parish representation under neighbourhood governance arrangements. That makes it clear that parish councils, where they exist, have an important role to play in neighbourhood governance. Again, we absolutely recognise the role of town and parish councils—I have made that point consistently throughout the passage of the Bill. We believe that our amendment strikes the right balance, alongside our commitments to reviewing and updating the guidance on community governance reviews, and to publishing a neighbourhood governance framework.
While I thank my noble colleagues for their insightful comments on the “agent of change” principle, I continue to hold that the most effective way to ensure the proper consideration of that principle is by strengthening existing mechanisms. National planning policy is not wishy-washy, as some have suggested. The framework carries significant weight in the planning system, and we are already in the most ambitious period of planning reform for a decade. I recognise the concerns that have been raised with me throughout this debate, and it is clear that the principle is not being effectively implemented. We already propose updating policy to address these issues, and I have committed to reviewing the guidance, in order to help disseminate best practice. Again, there is no fundamental difference in the policy intent; we are talking about the mechanism for taking it forward. We believe that the changes that we have in train will ensure that important businesses are protected from the effects of new development. With that, I urge the House to reject the Lords amendments.
The Bill has undoubtedly been improved as a result of the scrutiny in ping-pong so far, and we are incredibly grateful. We are pleased to be able to offer concessions on rural affairs, coastal communities, the power to direct a mayor, and town and parish councils. However, the Government are not prepared to accept any of the other Lords amendments that we have discussed today—not because there is fundamentally a difference in policy, but because we are thinking about the most effective mechanism for ensuring that these policies bite. I therefore urge the House to support the Government’s position and accept the Government’s concessions.
David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) (Con)
Despite the Minister’s centralising zeal, I detect a slight weariness on her part as we once again go toe to toe on Lords amendments. It remains the position of the Opposition that the Government are bringing forward in this Bill overall a set of centralising measures that are fundamentally about extending control from Whitehall into our town halls. Those measures come from a Government who have a record of imposing additional cost and responsibilities on our local authorities, as we hear continually from local government leaders.
It is welcome to hear from the Minister that there has been additional recognition from the Government of the differences that exist in our rural and coastal communities—I do have some coastline in my constituency, but I do not think Ruislip lido was what we had in mind when making the argument. It is clear that the needs of our rural and coastal communities, and the potential that they offer, are often different from what we see in urban and suburban areas, so we will not be pushing for a further vote on the matter of extending the recognition of rural affairs.
Mr Louie French (Old Bexley and Sidcup) (Con)
The point that my hon. Friend is making is a very accurate description of what is happening in my local area of Bexley, where developers are trying to argue that greenfield sites are now ripe for development because of the Government’s planning changes. Does he share my concern that the Government are continuing to try to barge those changes through this House, and that both Reform and Labour support the Government’s position on the grey belt, which will have a detrimental effect on our local community and our natural environment?
David Simmonds
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. People in Old Bexley and Sidcup—just like those in Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner and, indeed, in many of the constituencies that are represented by Conservative Members—are concerned about a Reform party that is championing tearing up the green belt across our capital in pursuit of housing targets, and about the ambiguity that has been created by the Government’s position on grey-belt land. That description seems to be applied to any site on which a developer can argue that housing could be delivered because it has had some previous use. That level of ambiguity is another one of the reasons why we are keen to make the very strong case for brownfield being enshrined as the priority, and for the Government to accept that case.
I will now turn briefly to the Lords amendments dealing with the leader and cabinet model of local government. To be clear, as an Opposition, we do not have a strong view about what governance arrangements town halls should choose. Many of us will have had experience under the committee system or under the leader and cabinet model, some with executive mayors. However, the reason why we intend to push the Government on this issue is that it once again represents their centralising tendency—a view in Whitehall that the Government know best what structures should be used. I happen to agree with Ministers that the leader and cabinet model is the most effective and efficient model, but it is not for us to tell locally elected officials and councillors what arrangements they should make.
Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)
I thank the shadow Minister for giving way, and congratulate him on his efforts yesterday. I am sure we are both struggling to bob in the Chamber this afternoon.
I agree with the shadow Minister about the cabinet model for local councils. I am sure he agrees that one of the advantages of that model is that there are fewer meetings, which makes being a councillor more accessible for those who have jobs and childcare commitments and means that we do not just rely on councillors who are perhaps retired. On his point about the Government’s approach to local authorities, does he agree that one good thing that this Government have done is ensure multi-year funding for local councils? When I was a councillor in Harlow—I got my mention of Harlow in—it was a real challenge for the opposition to do its shadow budgets and for the administration to do its budgets.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
It would be interesting to know the timings of the shadow Minister’s marathon.
David Simmonds
Suffice it to say that I was significantly slower than the hon. Member for Harlow (Chris Vince), whose outstanding efforts will, I am sure, leave him a little bit sore when bobbing today.
The hon. Member will know the benefits of an effective leader and cabinet model, because he has a good Conservative local authority led by Councillor Dan Swords, and the work of Councillor Dan Swords and his team has driven forward the improvements Harlow has been able to enjoy over many years.
David Simmonds
I am going to make a little progress, if I may.
The key point is to ensure that our local authorities can set out their governance arrangements in a way that reflects the needs of their community. The Government have already accepted the argument that we need to ensure a degree of nuance in the Bill for rural and coastal communities, and this is another example of exactly that argument.
On parish governance, I know we do not all have parish councils in our local areas, but they are a significant feature of civic life across the country and many of them run important local facilities such as leisure centres and car parks. It is clearly important to ensure that their role is enshrined, especially at a time when this Government’s wider agenda of local government reorganisation is leading to a significant transfer of services to parish councils from districts due to be abolished, so it is welcome that the Government are moving forward on that.
On the final two groups of amendments we are debating this afternoon, the so-called agent of change principle is the idea that a new arrival in a community should bear the cost of consequent changes on its gaining planning consent: if somebody opens a new music venue or builds a new residential development, that should not be at the expense of existing and long-established uses. Many of us as constituency MPs have had experience of when, for example, a property developer creates a new residential development and seeks to close down an existing venue such as a local pub—I had an example to do with a bus garage—because they are concerned about the impact it would have. Clearly those established uses with prior consent need to have a degree of priority, and that has already found its way into law in Scotland. We believe that it is reasonable to recommend that the Government take this forward and ensure that those existing uses have sufficient protection in the Bill that they are not subject to the unfair impact of new and subsequent arrivals seeking to pass the costs of mitigating the consequences of their activity on to them.
Finally, Lords amendment 98 is about the Secretary of State’s powers on changes to strategic authorities. It was hotly contested as the Bill made its way through Committee that it contains chapters and chapters of new powers for the Secretary of State to direct mayors or combined authorities, which very much speaks to the point that this is centralising legislation. While it introduces a new layer of local government, it none the less results in central Government having significantly more powers to levy a precept, to create a new housing development, to create zoning to ensure development takes place, and to bring together groups of local authorities and assume some of their responsibilities. All of those now fall much more strongly within the purview of the Secretary of State issuing directions from Whitehall about how things should happen locally.
It remains the Opposition’s position that, as supporters of and believers in devolution, we should not simply pay lip service to it in the title of the Bill, but ensure that those measures have the consent and support of the locally elected politicians whose mandate gives them the power to make those decisions on behalf of their community. We remain determined to push ahead in favour of that principle of consent and ensure that local communities continue to have champions who speak up for them in this Chamber.
Alex Sobel (Leeds Central and Headingley) (Lab/Co-op)
In my comments, I will address the agent of change principle. I am the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on music, and this has long been on our agenda. The shadow Minister got the gist of this right when saying that it is about existing or long-standing venues—music venues and nightclubs, in particular—having to bat back legal challenges from residents of any new build residential property, but primarily apartments. We have had examples of cases, such as Alphabet and the Moth club, where there have been legal costs of £50,000 or more from having to take on new developments that are challenging their ongoing operations.
I encountered a case of this kind in my constituency, which we had to fight in the planning committee. An organisation called Music and Arts Production provides music and arts education in its building for young people who have been excluded from school and who would otherwise become NEET—not in education, employment or training—but who are thus kept within the education system. One of its main sources of funding is Cosmic Slop, an event that raises a significant amount on Saturday nights.
There was to be heavy residential development in the area in the form of a new block of flats in Mabgate, opposite the MAP building. The problem was that there would be no sound protection or mitigation; in its local plan, Leeds had not mapped music venues or nightclubs. I received thousands of emails about the planning application from as far away as New York. We had to have significant discussions with the planning department and councillors to ensure that the necessary stipulations were made for noise reduction, and to ensure that the new residents could not, in effect, close down the club night, because if that happened MAP would have to close as well, and all those young people would become NEET.
I sympathise with the Ministers dealing with this matter, because throughout the process the national planning policy framework, on a non-statutory basis, has forced local authorities to take such action. I think we should consider ways of addressing this issue through secondary legislation and the local planning process, because at present neither the Bill nor the NPPF protects venues adequately. I know that, like mine, the Minister’s constituency contains many music venues and nightclubs, and she obviously cares deeply about such venues. I hope she will reassure me that the Government will look at the agent of change principle and ensure that, both locally and nationally, the relevant protections are available so that further pressures are not put on those venues. Nightclubs in particular are already suffering as a result of the business rates increases and other recent cost pressures, and the additional costs of having to fight developers will eventually push them out of existence.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
Zöe Franklin (Guildford) (LD)
The Liberal Democrats welcome the Government’s decision not to insist on their disagreement with Lords amendment 2, which proposes the inclusion of rural affairs in the list of competences for strategic authorities.
Sarah Gibson (Chippenham) (LD)
Too often, rural communities such as mine in Wiltshire have been overlooked by successive Governments and treated as an afterthought rather than as places with distinct needs, challenges and enormous potential. Decisions are far too often made on urban assumptions, leaving rural areas struggling with weak transport and fewer services. Does my hon. Friend agree that by embedding rural affairs at the heart of strategic authorities, the Lords amendment will ensure that rural communities are no longer overlooked or left behind?
Zöe Franklin
My hon. Friend is right. We have fought for the amendment consistently because rural communities are indeed overlooked too often, and it would put them at the heart of the Bill.
As I was saying, we support Government amendment (a) to Lords amendment 2, which adds coastal communities to the list of strategic competences, so I am grateful to the Secretary of State for tabling it. Together, the changes ensure that rural and coastal areas are explicitly recognised in the framework of strategic authorities and will be taken into account when powers, funding and responsibilities are devolved. The changes ensure that such areas are explicitly recognised in all decision making.
As my hon. Friend says, rural and coastal communities have too often felt overlooked, and their needs really need to be considered properly in the devolution process. We Liberal Democrats have long championed these communities, and many of my hon. Friends in this Chamber represent rural and coastal areas. We really welcome the constructive approach that the Government have taken in working with us, and I will continue to press for that spirit of collaboration as this Bill is implemented and, indeed, when further legislation on local government is introduced after the King’s Speech.
Caroline Voaden (South Devon) (LD)
Many people in my constituency are very nervous about how local government reorganisation will impact them, and they worry that it could lead to a top-down style of devolution, which entirely misses the point of making decisions locally. The Government’s backing down on Lords amendment 2 will provide some reassurance to rural and coastal communities, like those in my patch, that the governance of rural and coastal affairs will be meaningfully devolved to local leaders. Will my hon. Friend join me in celebrating the Government’s acceptance of the Liberal Democrats’ calls to add both rural and coastal affairs as competences required of a strategic mayoral authority following LGR?
Zöe Franklin
I am happy to thank the Government for agreeing to put that on the face of the Bill.
I turn now to the issue of brownfield development. We on the Liberal Democrat Benches continue to believe that development must follow a clear principle of brownfield first—not green belt by default, and certainly not the vague concept of grey belt. From experience in my constituency, I know how important that principle is in practice. Brownfield first is not an abstract planning preference; it is how we protect the precious green spaces that communities value most.
Across Guildford, we have brownfield sites that currently cannot be developed because of severe flooding constraints. With the right flood alleviation investment, including support from the Government, these sites could come forward for housing and regeneration; without that support, pressure inevitably shifts on to surrounding green spaces. Ministers have talked a lot about embedding environmental considerations across their programme, but it is difficult to reconcile that with continued resistance to practical, deliverable measures. If we are serious about sustainable growth, we must support councils to reuse land responsibly, not force them to make false choices between meeting housing need and protecting the environment.
I set out my party’s position on local authority governance last week, but as the Government are again seeking to reject the Lords amendment on this issue, it bears repeating. We Liberal Democrats do not believe that compelling local authorities to change governance arrangements that were chosen democratically by the communities they serve is devolution; that is direction from central Government, dressed up as localism. Ministers are demanding that councils give up systems that work for them—not because local people have called for change, but because Whitehall prefers a different model. That fundamentally undermines the principle that this Bill claims to advocate. Devolution is about trust, and devolution without choice is not devolution at all.
We continue to differ from the Government on whether this Bill really does deliver devolution, but I hope that Ministers will see today not as the end of the conversation but as the beginning of a more ambitious programme, building on what I imagine will be set out in the King’s Speech. We on the Liberal Democrat Benches stand ready and look forward to working constructively with the Government to achieve real devolution.
Local government is the bedrock of our democracy. It shapes the daily lives of our constituents, often more directly than this House does. If we are serious about renewing trust in our democratic institutions, we must start there—by trusting communities, respecting their choices and giving them a real voice over the decisions that affect their lives. This is the test of true devolution, and it is one that we still must strive to meet.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
I encourage Members to ensure that their contributions are linked to the amendments that are in front of us.
Ms Polly Billington (East Thanet) (Lab)
I welcome the Government amendment to include a competence covering coastal communities, in addition to the existing Lords amendments on rural areas. As many Members have already mentioned, coastal communities have lagged behind the rest of the country when it comes to economic growth since the great financial crash. Our constituents have more physical and mental health needs, lower life expectancy and higher rates of major diseases, and they are generally older. On average, they have lower educational attainment and higher rates of school absences, and once they enter the workforce, they are paid less. Our coastal towns are also more likely than non-coastal towns to suffer from high levels of deprivation. Coastal towns face unique economic pressures, including seasonal economies, struggling industries such as fishing and hospitality, and acute housing crises caused by the spread of short-term holiday lets and a lack of social housing.
Connectivity is also a major issue for our constituents. Along with a lack of quality public transport and less broadband availability, our constituents are at the forefront of the impact of the climate crisis and the sewage scandal. Renewing our coastal towns and their local economies will be crucial to ensuring that all parts of the country share in the national renewal that the Government are aiming to bring. That is why this amendment is so important. I hope that the Government will be clear in their expectations of what metro mayors with responsibility for coastal communities should do. There needs to be a strong economic focus, with an understanding of how public services and infrastructure underpin the ability for a community to prosper. Can the Minister confirm that one of the commissioners will have to have responsibility for coastal communities, if a metro mayoral area has a coast?
Furthermore, I hope that the Minister will discuss with colleagues on the Treasury Bench how an economic strategy for the coast might be developed through the designation of a coastal economic area. That would complement the new competences outlined in this Bill to ensure not only that our national strategic priorities for growth reach the communities that could benefit from that investment, but that we can contribute to the economic health of the nation.
Will my hon. Friend consider some of the perhaps unintended consequences of the local government reorganisation planned for the coming years? I am very much in favour of unitarisation, not only for efficiency, but for the ability for places like mine to come together to develop a strategic vision for the wider economy and society of east Kent. However, research I have commissioned suggests that there may be unintended consequences for coastal towns from the local government reorganisation as planned. There are 33 coastal towns and cities with a council’s main office, town hall or headquarters within their boundaries. Some 24 of those are going through the local government reorganisation process, and 22 have a proposal or multiple proposals that could result in their being dissolved in their current structure and merged with other councils into a larger unitary that covers a bigger area. If that happens, the new unitary will need to decide where they have their headquarters.
Town halls in coastal towns or cities are at a particularly high risk of relocation because of their often peripheral location, their relative lack of proximity to the new, larger constituent population, their weaker transport links and other issues such as flood risk. Those relocations would have a detrimental impact on local economies, at a time when many of those 22 coastal towns and cities are already struggling. They would also lead to the those places being more cut off from public leadership, increasing that left-behind feeling. I remind the House that some of those high-risk areas include Clacton-on-Sea, Sittingbourne, Margate, Blackpool, Cromer, Grimsby, Southend-on-Sea and Eastbourne. It ends up being a list of exactly the kind of places that we should be helping, so mitigations should be put in place for precisely that.
I will also refer to the parish and town council amendments as outlined. My hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton (Jim McMahon) said that there was a commitment to
“hardwire community engagement and neighbourhood working”—[Official Report, 2 September 2025; Vol. 772, c. 250.]
into the new governance proposals. It is a shame, however, that parish and town councils are designated only to be important local partners, rather than there being a legal requirement for them to be consulted. I say that because the town councils in Broadstairs and Ramsgate are highly valued and complementary to the existing local authority structures of Kent county council and Thanet district council. We notice the difference between what we see happen in Ramsgate and Broadstairs, which have town councils, and in Margate, which does not.
The reality is that Margate is about to secure its own town council thanks to fantastic, strong community campaigning by some of my good friends and allies in Thanet Labour party, and that will help to correct a democratic deficit that would otherwise occur. Indeed, Margate has always been short of democratic governance, and it will be needed all the more because of unitarisation. Can my hon. Friend the Minister reassure me and colleagues that town and parish councils really will be fully incorporated into the new settlement, and that, as outlined in the new Government amendments, existing town and parish councils will have a role to play? Can she also reassure us that those without existing town and parish councils will have the opportunity for strong neighbourhood governance?
In summary, we need to ensure: that the commissioners who will be part of the metro mayoral settlement have an economic focus if they are responsible for coastal communities; that every metro mayor who has the power to appoint a commissioner and has responsibility for the coast ensures that one commissioner has that focus; that local government reorganisation factors in appropriate mitigations for when there are risks of reduction of local government presence in coastal towns; and, finally, that parish and town councils continue to be a vital part of the local government settlement.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for East Thanet (Ms Billington) and in particular her points about parish and town councils. In Cornwall, where we are completely parished and towned in that sense, they are an important vehicle for communication up from the community. They enable communities to articulate their views. Indeed, one might even argue that parish and town councils are the highest tier of local authority in the sense that they are closest to the people and to the pulse of local opinion, and are able to articulate that in the process.
I would like to make remarks on two other amendments. On the proposals regarding brownfield first, which I strongly support, I am disappointed by the Government’s response. The Government’s policy, in particular with regard to rewriting the NPPF, will result in a goldrush to the greenfield edges of our towns and communities. In December 2024, they set a new housing target which effectively means that local authorities can no longer defend the edges of their towns if they are unable to demonstrate that they have a five-year land supply. At present, therefore, policy is going in exactly the wrong direction. It also fundamentally undermines local authorities and local communities that are seeking to advance rural exceptions policy. All those rural exceptions opportunities are now effectively lost as a result of local authorities no longer having five-year land supplies. That is to the detriment of communities that are desperately seeking to meet local housing need, hence the importance of ensuring that local authorities are under a stronger obligation to bring forward brownfield first.
The other amendment I welcome the opportunity to speak to—the hon. Member for Camborne and Redruth (Perran Moon) and my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Ben Maguire) will echo these concerns—relates to the Secretary of State’s powers regarding combined authorities without local consent. That is the critical matter. The only way in which the Government can demonstrate that they have the backing of local communities is to ensure that they consult them throughout.
The Isles of Scilly are keen to work with Cornwall to ensure we achieve the maximum level of devolution, and it is really important that the Government look at the very special case of Cornwall. We have a number of cultural and language designations that mean that the integrity of Cornwall becomes ever more important when navigating one’s way through the extremely sensitive process of devolving power. It is easy to undermine the great strengths of places such as Cornwall if those matters are not properly considered.
Perran Moon (Camborne and Redruth) (Lab)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the fact that half of Cornish MPs are present tonight, at this late stage and in a relatively sparsely populated Chamber, and that the others would be here if they were able to be, is testament to the fact that although it feels as though we are part of the way towards Cornish devolution, there is still deep concern, as this process draws towards a conclusion, that we are not considerably further forward in that process?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Order. I am aware that Members wish to make stellar contributions on behalf of their constituencies, but I do not believe that we are discussing Cornish devolution right now. Let us keep the debate in scope of the amendments in front of us.
Andrew George
I am grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker. We are simply giving the example of Cornish devolution as one of the potential products should the Government not reject the opportunity for local authorities to be properly consulted, which is what is on the amendment paper this evening. That is the most important thing this evening: to ensure that local authorities are consulted. We are seeking to make this an effective vehicle for achieving what is very much desired throughout Cornwall, both by the local authority and by local Members. I accept your point, Madam Deputy Speaker, but fundamentally, be it Cornwall or any other local authority that is seeking to ensure that its local and wider communities are properly consulted, it is not a question of our seeking a process of isolation, as I think the Government recognise.
The point that we make perpetually in relation to Cornwall—and the Isles of Scilly, which we hope will be co-operating with Cornwall as a combined authority—is that it is not about cutting ourselves off, but about cutting ourselves into the celebration of diversity across the United Kingdom. I hope that, in that spirit, Ministers will respond constructively and, in spite of the passing of the Bill, we will have a vehicle to achieve the desired ends as far as Cornwall is concerned.
Perran Moon
Before I start, I would like to ask for a little leeway, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will speak to two amendments, but they have a direct impact on my experience of devolution, which is in Cornwall. Therefore, I just ask for a little bit of leeway, but in relation to the amendments themselves.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
So long as you are referencing the amendment to which you are speaking, then of course—the Floor is yours.
Perran Moon
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
I welcome amendment (a), which would include coastal communities, as the changes are very encouraging, but I would also like to speak to the Lords amendment on local authority consent. I am deeply disappointed that the Secretary of State’s right to impose on a local authority without local assent has been delayed for only two years. The reason why, and this is where I have to reference our experience in Cornwall, is that for centuries—since the Stannary Parliament ceased to meet in 1753—Cornwall has longed for greater powers to control its own affairs. The amendment was an opportunity to work with Government to provide that level of devolution. It should also be noted for constitutionalists that the Stannary Parliament was never actually revoked.
The hunger for greater devolution runs deep in Cornwall, and in the 21st century it has been enhanced by the Council of Europe’s framework convention of national minority status, which recognises the Cornish as a national minority. I fear that the Government’s refusal to accept some of the amendments that were tabled, including this one, runs in contravention to article 16 of that framework convention. The national minority status process began under the previous Labour Government. I am also very grateful for the elevation of the Cornish language to the status of all other British Celtic languages.
With this hunger for devolution and commitments from the party, expectations were high. However, as we approach the end of the Bill’s passage, I am disappointed by the progress made by the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government. It is not as though the Ministry did not know what devolution we were looking for. I am deeply grateful to the Minister and to two Secretaries of State for so frequently meeting Cornish Members from both parties to elaborate on what constitutes a devolution deal. I am very grateful that the Treasury has delivered the Kernow industrial growth fund. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport is moving ahead with support for the language, as I mentioned, and the Department of Health and Social Care and the Department for Education are investing in Cornwall. However, it feels a bit like MHCLG is not moving at the same pace as the others. This was never more starkly exposed than on the day it was announced that Cornwall was losing its shared prosperity funding, and new shared prosperity funding was announced in northern English mayoralties.
I am grateful that in November 2025 the Secretary of State was mindful to offer Cornwall single strategic authority status, as the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) mentioned. Cornwall will never willingly become part of a mayoral combined authority, because to do so would compromise national minority status, as I have mentioned. However, when she gets to her feet, could the Minister please confirm when those outstanding areas, including transport, economic development, strategic place partnership for housing and British-Irish Council attendance, will be dealt with? Until then, there will remain distrust and scepticism of the Government’s intentions for devolution in Cornwall and its place within these British Isles.
Ben Maguire (North Cornwall) (LD)
I will keep my contribution brief and speak once again on Lords amendments 98 and 98A, to allow other hon. Members to speak. Along with many of my constituents, I was very disappointed last Tuesday that the Minister failed to mention Cornwall once in her closing speech, despite my pointing out the dangerous powers that the Government are still trying to instil into law—powers that could be used by this Government or a future Government, which could force Cornwall to merge with another authority without the consent of the Cornish people. Cornwall still faces the prospect of having no legal protections in the Bill. Liberal Democrats have made efforts here and in the other place to secure protections that would take our national minority status into account under the European Framework convention for the protection of national minorities.
I fear that my constituents are being held to ransom by this Government, who say, “Accept our terms, effectively give up your national minority status, be forced into a merger with another region, and we might give you more money—and if you don’t accept our terms, we have the powers to force you to do so in two years’ time anyway.” In my eyes, that amounts to nothing more than economic coercion against a national minority. The Minister keeps repeating, as she did last week, that the Government have already committed not to use these powers for two years. How does that provide comfort for my constituents? Either a future Government or this one could use that power after two years.
I therefore hope that all my Cornish colleagues and Members from across the House will join me this time to vote against the Government’s latest attempt at blocking Lords amendment 98. Let us please not hand this Government or future Governments this unlawful power to combine authorities against the will of local people—our constituents. To the Minister, I say again that she has not considered Cornwall’s national minority status, contrary to the European framework convention, and so she will likely expect a legal challenge if the Bill becomes law.
Lewis Atkinson (Sunderland Central) (Lab)
I would like to speak to Lords amendment 94B and 94C on the agent of change principle. My particular concern, as I said last week, relates to grassroots music venues and the impact on them of the current lack of robust application of the agent of change principle through planning guidance.
To set a little context, there were 1,150 grassroots music venues a few years ago. The Music Venue Trust now believes that has fallen to 800 venues. Grassroots music venues are important, and not just to local cultural identity—Sunderland is a music city, as we all know. Those venues are core to the UK music industry, which is worth £5.2 billion a year in this country, and grassroots music venues are the research and development department of that industry.
It is tempting to assume that a lot of money is sloshing around because of the success of some of our international acts, but that is absolutely not the case for grassroots music venues trying to keep the show on the road, as it were, on our high streets. That is why 350 have closed in recent years. Of the 366 small venues that Ed Sheeran played in when learning his trade, more than 150 are now closed. Of the 34 venues that Oasis played in before being signed, only 11 remain. If we do not work to ensure that the agent of change principle is properly applied, which Lords Amendment 94 sought to do, we risk further catastrophic loss of venues. The closures are due not just to economic factors on the high street, which people have discussed; the Music Venue Trust conservatively estimates that since 2015 over 125 grassroots music venue closures have been due specifically to planning issues.
Ms Billington
The specific issue of licensing is important. Small venues in my constituency are vital for our visitor economy and in being part of the pipeline for developing enormous amounts of talent. It is worth pointing out that the UK representative at the Eurovision song contest comes from Ramsgate. If it were not for strong music venues such as Ramsgate Music Hall, as well as Faith in Strangers, Where Else? and Olby’s in Margate, the likes of “Look Mum No Computer”—our entry in the Eurovision song contest—might have had no prospect of being able to develop.
Lewis Atkinson
I fondly remember the vibrant cultural scene during my time in Broadstairs. Too many grassroots music venues risk facing their own “Waterloo” at the moment.
Perran Moon
I cannot let this moment pass, particularly following the intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for East Thanet (Ms Billington), without raising the son of Redruth—one Mick Fleetwood, of Fleetwood Mac. I highlight the importance of the cultural diversity in Cornwall, including my home town of Redruth. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is vital that we celebrate these great musicians?
Lewis Atkinson
Absolutely. Too many music venues risk becoming old news by being forced to shut, even if they are where the likes of Fleetwood Mac learned their trade. I totally agree with my hon. Friend.
The Government recently made a welcome commitment to set out a new high street strategy. The high street is, of course, changing due to changing retail habits, including online shopping. Cultural venues such as music venues are absolutely core to the regeneration and future of the high street, which means that the sort of protections envisaged in Lords amendments 94B and 94C become even more crucial.
Alex Sobel
Does my hon. Friend agree that there are particular issues for councillors on the planning committees of local authorities? The amendments would bring a clarity that would make it much easier for planning committees to operate and give music venues and nightclubs the reassurance that they need.
Lewis Atkinson
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. I will come on to say a little about the national planning policy framework at the moment. When my hon. Friend spoke, he made a good point about local plans. Part of the issue at the moment is that local councils have very different approaches. I wonder whether there is scope for the Government to ensure, or certainly encourage, local authorities to explicitly reference and identify grassroots music venues in their local plans so that when such planning applications are put in, there is explicit recognition of those venues.
It is not just the risk of actual closure that the lack of “agent of change” envisages; there is also the ongoing uncertainty. The Night & Day Café in Manchester spent three days fighting noise abatement proceedings from a nearby development, which put stress and risk on that establishment over time. My hon. Friend the Member for Manchester Withington (Jeff Smith) is not in his place today, but he intervened last week in the debate, referencing venues like that one.
I welcome the Minister’s acknowledgment from the Dispatch Box that the current planning framework is not operating as initially envisaged. I think the “agent of change” principle was first put into the national planning policy framework in 2018, following a private Member’s Bill secured by the now Lord Spellar—MP for Warley at the time. That guidance has not been sufficiently implemented; the Music Venue Trust reports that there has not been a meaningful reduction in the number of planning applications that risk threatening music venues. There is an issue about enforcement. Will the Minister say a little about the work that the Government are doing to increase the resources and the ability of local authorities to enforce the national planning policy framework when it comes to “agent for change” in future?
The other reality, I am afraid, is that the NPPF, including the draft NPPF set out by the Government recently, is not strong enough; Lord Brennan of Canton referred to that in his speech in the other place last Thursday, I believe. To reassure the Minister, I should say that I am not seeking a widespread power that would extend noise protections to all sorts of establishments. My concern, and that of others across the House and in the other place, relates specifically to cultural venues—in particular grassroots music venues and nightclubs, as my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central and Headingley (Alex Sobel) has ably set out.
I support the Government’s mission to build more houses and create more residences. The example in my constituency is that the lack of clarity and enforcement of the current framework is stopping properties being built—some flats in my city centre are not being built because the developer tries to get away with what it can under noise abatement, in the absence of a clear statutory duty. A local music venue is therefore stressed about potential threats, and a developer is not able to build houses.
There is reported to be greater clarity in Scotland. I understand that the Scottish planning system is significantly different in many elements from the one in England. The Music Venue Trust reports a significant reduction in the number of venue closures in Scotland.
Ms Billington
I want to reaffirm on the record what my hon. Friend has said. This is an important way of ensuring that we have a place-led way of shaping our communities; without that, we will not be able to get the homes that people desperately need in the places where they need them. Furthermore, we will not be able to ensure that those places are worthwhile living in because they have other things apart from homes. The cultural venues that we are talking about are so vital—not only to the economy, but to making sure that people actually want to spend their time in places. That balance is going to be required, and that is why the power needs to be there.
Lewis Atkinson
I entirely agree. The title of this Bill includes the words “community empowerment” and “devolution”. I want my community in Sunderland to be empowered: to have the powers to ensure that our key cultural venues—such as Pop Recs, Independent and the Bunker—retain protections from further development around them.
I turn to the draft national planning policy framework, which the Minister referred to. I understand the Government’s difficulty in breaking what some might say is a precedent by not putting planning guidance into statute. I understand that there is a genuine judgment to be made, even if there is a shared policy intent. But the existing draft national planning policy framework states, in P4:
“Existing businesses, community facilities, public services and defence and security activities should not have unreasonable restrictions placed on their current or permitted operation”.
“Should not” gives far too much leeway. There is also no explicit reference in the draft national planning policy framework to specific actions about noise levels, sound insulation, licensing outcomes or operating hours, despite those being the most common and predictable mechanisms through which “agent for change” risks threaten our music venues. If it is the Government’s intention to try to get the policy solution through planning guidance rather than through statute, will the Minister commit on behalf of the Minister for Housing and Planning to reconsider some of the language in the draft NPPF to strengthen those points in particular? Will the Minister also write to local authorities on ensuring that local plans include grassroots music venues?
There has to be a review of the NPPF. Could the Minister say a little about how long she believes it is appropriate to monitor the implementation of the NPPF if this is where we end up at the end of ping-pong and there are no statutory powers engaged to protect our music venues? If inappropriate planning applications that threaten our music venues continue to come in, how long will she and the Government wait before reviewing the policy and looking to further strengthen it? Indeed, if there is any chance of a late concession in the event that the agent of change returns here from the other place, will she consider taking potential statutory powers not to be used except when needed to safeguard our grassroots music venues?
Vikki Slade (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)
I am really pleased to follow the speech of the hon. Member for Sunderland Central (Lewis Atkinson) with my own story of an early venue. In 2007, I remember visiting the Stage Door in Southampton—a venue above a pub—for one of the very first, intimate gigs of Scouting for Girls. They are now internationally renowned and celebrating their 20th year, but there were so few of us at the gig that we actually helped them carry their kit there and back afterwards. Without those little gigs, they would not have had that success such that 20 years later we can go and enjoy them at summer festivals.
I rise specifically to speak to Lords amendment 37. During the Bill Committee, as the Minister will recall, my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Manuela Perteghella) and I spoke frequently about the importance of town and parish councils and the need to strengthen them as unitary councils take decision making further away from local people and dilute the identity and priorities of clearly defined places. As local government is reorganised and councils cover ever larger geographies, it is critical that communities retain hyper-local democratic structures not as an add-on but as an essential part of effective devolution.
There was a lot of talk originally about what other structures might be in place as part of the Bill if not a town and parish council, but that does not seem to have made much progress. I am disappointed that without something really strong in that place, there is nothing recognising the critical place of our town and parish councils, whose strength forms part of our communities, as so passionately talked about by the hon. Member for East Thanet (Ms Billington) and my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George).
I spoke on Second Reading about how the forthcoming local government reorganisation—it does not affect my area—will see the end of authorities such as Winchester and Southampton city councils. It is inconceivable that historic places such as Winchester will not either immediately or within a couple of years re-establish a town council to protect their identity and ensure that their unique needs—beyond those covered by the fairly nebulous unitary authorities that will replace them—are met. Parish and town councils give residents not only that opportunity to create their sense of place, but a direct, accountable voice.
In Dorset, the plan for change created in 2016, which came before our local government reorganisation, talked about the expansion of town and parish councils and the creation of neighbourhood-level structures, but those decisions were deferred for future administrations to progress. On the Dorset side, the gaps were filled so the whole area became parished, but in Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole they were never implemented after being blocked by the then Conservative-led councils. A decade on, we are having to retrofit them at local cost and with an administrative burden.
I welcome that Conservatives in the other place have recognised that encouraging the expansion of parish governance in currently unparished areas really does matter—it is ironic that their colleagues have chosen not even to stand for election in the new town councils in Broadstone and Poole.
As the remit of unitary authorities has expanded, funding has inevitably focused on statutory services and neighbourhoods with the highest levels of deprivation. I welcome that, but as a consequence many of the facilities that residents really value—the fabric of everyday community life—have quietly fallen away.
When I moved to Broadstone at the turn of the century, Christmas lights, street furniture repairs, tree planting and small community grants were considered standard and funded, or at least supported, by the local authority. Today, they are routinely deemed out of scope for huge councils doing their best to protect the most vulnerable through statutory services. However, those things still matter deeply to the residents they serve; without them, communities begin to feel overlooked and to look unloved.
Miatta Fahnbulleh
I thank hon. Members for their continued engagement on the Bill and their insightful contributions to the debate. I am glad that our concessions have secured support. I thank both my hon. Friends on the Labour Benches and hon. Members across the House for their feedback and insights, which have led to these concessions—[Interruption.] Thank you. Since the hon. Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (David Simmonds) piped up, I will start with him.
There is the consistent theme of the hon. Member accusing the Government of making this a centralising Bill and, in a way that is becoming tradition, I must push back on that. I remind him that this is the biggest transfer of powers out of Whitehall and Westminster to our local leaders at regional level and to our communities. I also remind him that his Government had over a decade to drive through wholesale, consistent devolution in the way that this Government are doing, and they did not take up that opportunity. We had a decade of slow, ad hoc, piecemeal transfer of power to our communities and our local leaders. We do not agree with that approach.
In the Bill, we are doing two things. We are setting out a framework for clear economic devolution to our regions that makes devolution by default the norm and creates a mechanism by which that can happen without individual deals being negotiated. Critically, we are also building the power of our communities, whether through strengthening the community right to buy so that communities can take hold of assets of community value or through the creation of neighbourhood governance so that we have a tier of local governance that ensures that communities have the power and voice to drive the change they want to see in their place and shape their neighbourhoods and communities.
Ms Billington
I am interested to hear the Minister explain how we can ensure that town and parish councils, particularly existing ones, are integrated into the new local government settlement. They are particularly important when unitarisation is happening, increasing efficiencies of scale and enabling more strategic deployment at the kind of scale that is important. However, there is a concern that if those local parish and town councils are not integrated into the local government settlement, we will have a reduction in democratic accountability.
Miatta Fahnbulleh
I thank my hon. Friend for raising that question and for being a clear, consistent and passionate advocate of town and parish councils. I will pick up her point, but I want to start with her forceful and effective contribution about coastal communities and the amendments that we are proposing.
The Government have heard the concerns that rural affairs will be marginalised with our new devolution framework. As we extend devolution beyond the urban centres of England, it is absolutely right that strategic authorities look to use the powers and funding at their disposal to support communities across a wide range of geographies, whether they are urban, rural or indeed coastal communities.
Steff Aquarone (North Norfolk) (LD)
I am grateful for the steps that the Government have taken today in recognising the importance of rural and coastal communities. The hon. Member for East Thanet (Ms Billington) made reference to my constituency earlier in this regard, and I thank her for doing so. The Government clearly realise how important it is to recognise a rural and coastal communities in this Bill. Has the Minister now had her mind changed such that we should recognise rural and coastal communities with their own Cabinet position?
Miatta Fahnbulleh
This relates to the point that my hon. Friend the Member for East Thanet (Polly Billington) made about commissioners and the governance arrangements. We are clear that strategic authorities absolutely must think about how they drive the prosperity and wellbeing of their rural and coastal communities. The structures—and, indeed, the policy framework—that they put in place to do that will be in the gift of local leaders and the mayor. That is right, and that is the basis of devolution. What we are trying to do through the Bill—I think we have achieved it through the amendments and the existing provisions—is to ensure that there is a clear framework that strategic authorities and mayors are working towards.
We as a Government absolutely recognise the important role that coastal and rural communities play. We are committed to doing our part to support strategic authorities, to ensure that they are dealing with issues from housing through to transport and the infrastructure that we need, in order to ensure that our rural communities thrive. Members across the House have our commitment that we will do that, so that local plans reflect the composition of different parts of the country, and that we are putting in place the building blocks to ensure that none of our coastal or rural communities are left behind.
Lewis Atkinson
I understand the temptation to distinguish between urban, rural and coastal communities, but does the Minister recognise that urban communities such as mine in Sunderland are also coastal communities? By the limitations of geography, our economic activity is limited by 180°, and there are particular issues regarding transport links, economic geography and so on. Does she agree that it is not a binary distinction between urban, rural and coastal, and that many city council areas such as mine, as well as combined authorities, need to be considered as coastal communities as well?
Miatta Fahnbulleh
My hon. Friend is completely right. Indeed, the reason that the Government originally resisted this amendment was on that very point. Ultimately, we believed that the framework and the set of competences that we had set out were broad enough to capture the complexities of different areas with a mix of urban, rural and coastal. However, we understood the strength of feeling in the other place and we have made this concession. Now it is for our local leaders, through the context of devolution, to ensure that they come together to put in place a plan that can deal with the specifics of their area.
Let me turn to the points on town and parish councils that hon. Members have raised. I have been consistent through the passage of this Bill that we absolutely recognise the importance of town and parish councils. I would like to put on record my thanks to the hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Vikki Slade), who has been a consistent advocate for town and parish councils, both in Committee and in the House. Our amendment in lieu provides that regulations made under clause 60 may provide for parish councils to be represented on neighbourhood governance structures. This locks in the importance of town and parish councils within the new neighbourhood framework that we are putting in place. It places beyond doubt the expectation that local authorities should engage with parish councils about parish representation under that framework.
Vikki Slade
Can I just clarify the use of the word “should” rather than the word “must”? Where these bodies exist, they must have a right to be included; this is not just a “should”. I worry that the word “should” will allow a mayor or a larger authority to have the power over what is, as my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) commented, possibly the most important level of local government.
Miatta Fahnbulleh
I absolutely agree that communities are a fundamental level. Part of the reason we are putting in place a neighbourhood governance structure is to address the point that my hon. Friend the Member for East Thanet made, which is that at the moment the neighbourhood structure is not built within our framework for local government. We believe that communities must be empowered, and this is an important step to rectify that. Where we disagree, however, is that I think it is wrong for Government to impose on places any particular neighbourhood governance structure. It is absolutely right that it is left to local areas to decide the right neighbourhood governance structure for them.
Town and parish councils exist across 80% of our geography, so in many areas they will be the default, but in other areas they may not be. We are criticised for being centralising, and I have pushed back against that constantly. I think it would be hugely centralising to say that, irrespective of what your community wants—whether it is an area or ward forum, a neighbourhood forum or a structure that already exists—central Government think you must have this model and this model only, and that is not the approach we are taking. Yes, we recognise the importance of town and parish councils, but we ultimately think it must be left to communities and local areas to decide the right neighbourhood governance structure for them that represents what the community wants and can be the voice for the community to drive the change that they want to see.
Vikki Slade
I am grateful to the Minister for letting me come back on this, because the missing link is not necessarily that it is a town and parish council structure; it is that 20% of the country has nothing, and there is nothing in place to ensure that those people have something. In the area that I represent, a huge cost has now come to the local area because there was a failure to put anything in place. Whether it is a town or parish council or another neighbourhood governance, the current structure does not provide for there to be anything.
Miatta Fahnbulleh
The hon. Member is completely right. There is a gap, and we are putting in this provision for a neighbourhood governance structure across the country to address that gap. Many areas that do not have town and parish councils will have other mechanisms in place. I point to my borough of Southwark, where we have area committees that work really well and represent the community. The key principle here, however, is that it must be for the community to determine the right structure that represents their area and can be an effective voice. We cannot and must not dictate from central Government.
Gareth Snell (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab/Co-op)
As someone who was a parish councillor in a previous life and now represents a seat that has no parish level of governance whatsoever, I wonder whether the Minister sees a role for arbitration over where there is conflict between what that local mechanism might look like—for instance, where a residents association encroaches on another set of streets that might be considered another part of a residents association. Where do the Government see their role in facilitating resolution so that those powerful local bodies can exist in a way that is representative, fair and equal?
Miatta Fahnbulleh
My hon. Friend makes a good point. We as a Government are committed to putting in place a neighbourhood governance framework, and that framework will set in place the key principles. It will be a guide for what effective, strong neighbourhood governance looks like. We will put in place regulation and guidance to support local authorities as they go through the endeavour of working with their communities to put the right structure in place. We have done a huge amount of work with the sector, and have taken evidence, which has informed the principles, but one of the big messages we got from everyone across the sector is: “Whatever you do, do not dictate what this looks like; build on what exists, and ultimately leave it to communities and local areas to come up with the right model for them.” When the sector speaks, we listen.
Lewis Cocking (Broxbourne) (Con)
If the Minister reckons that Ministers should not dictate what local government structures should be, will she let areas that have two-tier government, and that want to keep their district councils, keep them? My area does; it wants to keep Conservative-run Broxbourne district council. Why is she mandating that we go to unitary authorities, when she is clearly saying, as a Minister at the Dispatch Box, that she does not want to dictate what local government looks like across the country?
Miatta Fahnbulleh
I have had this debate many times with the hon. Member. His Government were in power for over a decade and oversaw the decimation and denuding of local authorities through a sustained period of austerity. His Government saw that local authorities were not sustainable, yet did not act. It falls to this Government to recognise those failures. We care about having strong local government that can deliver services for communities. Local government reorganisation is neither easy nor fun—it is hugely time-consuming, and we know that it is a difficult endeavour for our local authorities—but it was a necessity because of the previous Government’s failure to act for nearly a decade and a half. They saw the failings and issues in local government and did not respond; we have not done that.
We were clear that, ultimately, we would ask local areas to come forward with a range of proposals, based on a set of criteria. They have done that, and my hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government and Homelessness is judging the proposals that have come forward against the objective criteria that have been set. What we would not do—I will never concede on this point—is nothing, because that would have left local government collapsing at the very time when our communities need it to be working.
I reassure hon. Members that we think that we have struck the right balance, particularly on town and parish council governance. We are clear that town and parish councils have an important role. We are driving forward community power—something I am fundamentally passionate about and committed to—but we have balanced that with the imperative that national Government must not dictate the structure; that must be left to local areas to decide.
I would like to pick up on “brownfield first”, raised by the hon. Members for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner, and for Guildford (Zöe Franklin). I continue to stress that the Government fully agree with, and support, the principle of “brownfield first”. There is no difference in policy intent here, and there never has been. We have demonstrated our commitment by strengthening support for brownfield development in national policy in December 2024, and we proposed further changes earlier this year. I have been clear that the NPPF is the framework under which planning policy and decisions are and should be made, and it remains the most appropriate tool for supporting brownfield development.
Dr Beccy Cooper (Worthing West) (Lab)
I absolutely agree that brownfield sites should be prioritised for development. On the NPPF, how can we further ensure that the right type of housing goes on brownfield sites? We are talking about social rent housing, and housing for older people who are rightsizing, and for first-time buyers; there is a huge shortage of that housing, across the country.
Miatta Fahnbulleh
My hon. Friend is completely right: we need to build more homes. We are absolutely committed to doing that, but they have to be the right homes for communities. That is why this Government are investing £39 billion to ensure that we have the biggest boost to social and affordable housing in a generation. We must build homes that our communities can afford, and that are appropriate for our communities.
Gareth Snell
In Stoke-on-Trent, we are outside a mayoral combined authority, but have oodles of old industrial brownfield. We are itching to get our hands on it, but we do not have those compulsory purchase powers that sit with Homes England. Once the strategic combined authorities are up and running, how soon will we be able to use those powers to purchase that land, so that we can build the houses that the Minister talks about?
Miatta Fahnbulleh
We are as impatient as my hon. Friend is to get building on brownfield land, so we are working closely with all our authorities and strategic authorities to ensure that they have the power and tools to do that. We recognise that a big barrier to building on brownfield land is funding. This Government committed a record amount—£5 billion over the spending review—to supporting the remediation of brownfield sites, so that we can unlock the development that we all want.
The Opposition, who are pushing this amendment, accuse us of centralising, yet the amendment would, by its very nature, remove flexibility, whereas the Bill allows our local leaders, be it at regional or local authority level, the flexibility to deploy policy in a way that makes sense for their area. The amendment is fundamentally centralising, and we would be much better off trying to achieve “brownfield first”, an objective that we all agree on, through a policy that gives local leaders the flexibility to apply policy in a way that makes sense for their area.
Lewis Atkinson
Will the Minister elaborate on funding for brownfield sites? In my constituency, we have Riverside Sunderland, the most ambitious city centre regeneration project in the UK. That is only possible because of £30 million of Homes England funding, which will create more than 800 homes. Does she agree that it is somewhat hypocritical for parties that voted against that funding to say that they favour a “brownfield first” or “brownfield only” policy for building?
Miatta Fahnbulleh
My hon. Friend is absolutely right; I could not have put it better myself. If we believe in “brownfield first”, which we do, then it has to be enabled. That requires funding, which requires political will, which we Labour Members have, but which is sadly too often missing from the Opposition.
I turn to agents of change. I thank hon. Members for their contributions on the subject, particularly my hon. Friends the Members for Leeds Central and Headingley (Alex Sobel), and for Sunderland Central (Lewis Atkinson), who talked knowledgeably, articulately and persuasively on this question. I reiterate our strong reason for maintaining the view that a policy approach is best suited to addressing issues of implementation, when it comes to the agent of change. As with “brownfield first”, there is no difference in policy here. I absolutely agree with the points and concerns that have been raised. National planning policy exerts a significant influence on the planning system in two principal ways. Plan-making authorities must have regard to national policy when preparing development plans that form the basis for decision making, unless material considerations indicate otherwise. National policy itself is a material consideration, meaning that the NPPF can have a powerful and immediate effect on planning decisions, allowing policy changes to take effect quickly.
Furthermore, the new draft framework aims to improve delivery across the planning system by setting out much clearer policies for plan making and decision making. It makes it explicit that the decision-making policies should not be repeated in local plans and provides for these policies to bear on the system from day one. That is why we have not taken forward statutory national development management policies at this stage, although we are keeping that decision under review.
Alex Sobel
Would the Minister and colleagues be prepared to look at the idea that grassroots music venues and nightclubs should be in the local plan, so that planning committees and planning officers have to have regard to them? This is clearly a gap. If they are in the plan, this will not move on to a statutory footing, which is something that she is obviously concerned about.
Miatta Fahnbulleh
Local plans can include community facilities, and we are committed to looking at ways, through the local plan, that we can strengthen the policy intent that we all agree that we are trying to achieve. First, we intend to work closely with local planning authorities, once the new NPPF is finalised, to ensure that the policy is fully understood and implemented. As my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland Central said, there is a discrepancy between planning considerations and what is actually enforced. We recognise that discrepancy and are looking at what more can be done to ensure that local planning authorities are enforcing planning conditions related to this important issue. My hon. Friend the Minister for Housing is very exercised by this issue and is grateful for all the contributions that have been made by hon. Friends. He is content to meet to discuss what more can be done, but I hope that Members hear the Government when we say that we agree with the policy intent and that the national planning policy should be strengthened—we are undertaking that. We think there is an opportunity to make more progress through the local plan, and we are committed to working with local authorities to do that. We have committed to working with Members from across the House to ensure that this bites in the way that Members are keen for it to bite.
Lewis Atkinson
I thank the Minister for those welcome words, the acknowledgment that there is no policy difference here, and that she will keep statutory guidance under review, should that be necessary. Will she commit, on behalf of the Minister for Housing and Planning, to a meeting before the publication of the final NPPF, at which we could give serious consideration to explicitly mentioning issues such as noise reduction and insulation, when it comes to grassroots music venues?
Miatta Fahnbulleh
I am always very happy to commit my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing to any meeting that my hon. Friends would like. We are very keen to meet in advance of the NPPF biting.
May I also say a word about support for the music industry? My hon. Friends have talked with great passion about the music industry in their constituencies, and have shown that they care about it. The Government are absolutely committed to supporting the UK music industry as part of our industrial strategy. We will soon publish a music plan, drawing together all that the Government are doing to support the music industry, which is a vital part of our communities, cultural heritage and local economies. That includes a £30 million music growth package over three years from 2026, to support domestic growth, talent development and music exports. We are also supporting the sector’s work to adopt—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
Order. Before she drifts off into the music industry in any great detail, may I respectfully remind the Minister that she must confine her remarks to the Bill and the Lords amendments thereto?
Miatta Fahnbulleh
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker; I got far too excited about the music industry. Suffice it to say that the Government recognise its importance. That is why the debate about the agent of change is so important, and why we are committed to playing our part in supporting that aim.
I turn to the Bill and the amendments. Let me pick up on the amendments relating to the removal of the Secretary of State’s directed powers. The Government have committed to not commencing powers to direct the establishment of non-mayoral strategic authorities for a period of two years following Royal Assent. That will provide sufficient time for areas that do not currently have devolution agreements to develop workable proposals based on sensible geographies.
At the same time, we have also listened and responded to concerns expressed in the other place. We recognise that it will be important for non-rural authorities to have the opportunity to build capacity and effective partnership working before taking on the deepest powers and funding at mayoral level. For that reason, the Government are removing the power for the Secretary of State to provide directly for a mayor in an area without local consent. We believe that that strikes the right balance, but I encourage Members from across the House to judge us by our actions.
Ms Billington
I am pleased to hear my hon. Friend say that it will be necessary to have local consent to take these matters forward. In these conversations about devolution, I make the observation that lines drawn on maps in Whitehall rarely work. It is therefore extraordinarily important to have local and public consent to taking forward these kinds of devolutionary powers. Otherwise, we will end up with a local government settlement that does not meet the needs of local people.
Miatta Fahnbulleh
I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. That is exactly what happened under the approach adopted by the Conservative party in government. It created random boundaries and involved ad hoc devolution that did not treat our local leaders as equal partners who know their communities and can drive change. That is not our approach.
I ask Members to consider the approach that we are taking by setting up strategic authorities. We have gone to places and asked, “What is the local partnership that works for your place? Which geography means that you can drive the outcomes that your community wants?” We are not dictating from Whitehall; we are leaving this to local areas. That matters, because devolution works well when we have strong institutions, predicated on partnership between local authorities that understand their place and are willing to act collectively for it. We will not use the approach of imposing on places; rather, we will ensure that there is local consent. That is why the amendment works.
Gareth Snell
I will be brief. I completely understand the principle that the Minister is outlining of not wanting to force areas to have something that they do not want. She talks about consent, but what does that actually look like? In some areas, the board will have one or two intransigent members who will not allow progress—they could hold up a majority view that is in favour of a combined authority. What is the Government’s role, if they are removing their ability to tell parts of the community that they do not have the right to hold up something that a majority of local component units want?
Miatta Fahnbulleh
The role that we will play is to work with our local authorities. Ultimately, the common thread is that we are working in service of and on behalf of communities, and it is for both national Government and local leaders to make decisions on the geography that makes sense for local economies and that works for their community. We will always advocate for the community in those conversations to ensure that we get the right partnership that can deliver for places.
Andrew George
The Government are promising that they will not impose things without local consent. The other side of that argument is that local authorities in areas such as Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly want to press on with devolution much faster than the Government seem willing to allow. Will the Minister account for that in the way in which the Government proceed on this matter?
Miatta Fahnbulleh
I was just coming to the hon. Member’s earlier contributions. We absolutely want to move at the pace at which our most ambitious and fastest-moving places want to move. We recognise the unique circumstances in Cornwall. I have spent a lot of time with hon. Friends from across Cornwall, who have been very passionate, effective and robust advocates for their place. I had the pleasure of visiting Cornwall and seeing some of the issues, as well as the huge amount of work and innovation. We have invested £28.6 million in the current industrial growth fund—creating 300 jobs and an additional 1,000 jobs in the supply chain—because we understand and recognise the economic potential of the area. We are committed to working with the council and with Cornwall MPs to take that further. We have set out the framework for a devolution deal, we have set out the progress that we are making to recognise minority status, and we are committed to moving further in the days and weeks to come.
The Government’s approach to local authority governance arrangements has been pragmatic. We are ultimately trying to reach solutions that we believe will bite and work in places. I remind Members across the House that 80% of local authorities are already deploying the cabinet and leader model, and it is an effective model that allows strong decision making for communities. In areas that already have a democratic mandate for an alternative—whether committee or mayor—we have created the space for those structures to continue. But we are very clear that we are having to fix the mess of the last Government, which did absolutely nothing for local government and allowed a decade in which local government was denuded—I come back to that. Our job now is to ensure that we build strong local authority institutions, because we are localists: we believe in devolution, but we need strong institutions to do that. That means both having structures that work for the communities they represent and in which, critically, decisions can be made to improve the lot of their place.
We believe that the cabinet and leader model works. We think that we have found the right balance. I implore Members across the House, particularly given that 80% of local authorities are already deploying the model that we are talking about, that we are keen to make progress and allow our local authorities to move forward.
In conclusion—[Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] No one is more pleased about that than me. In conclusion, I thank Members for their contributions and the constructive way in which they have engaged with the Bill. I hope that they see that we are a Government who are absolutely committed to pushing power into our places and our communities. It is beholden on all of us to make sure that this Bill does get Royal Assent, because this is the first step towards fundamentally changing the settlement between this place—between Government—and our communities, who do not feel that they have power and agency, and who do not feel that change is being driven in the way that they want. We have to rebalance that. This is the first step, and I implore Members across the House to support the Government’s position.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House does not insist on its disagreement to Lords Amendment 2 but proposes Amendment (a) to the Lords Amendment.
After Clause 37
Brownfield land priority
Motion made, and Question put,
That this House disagrees with the Lords in their Amendments 89B and 89C.—(Miatta Fahnbulleh.)
Pension Schemes Bill
Monday 27th April 2026
(3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Pension Schemes Act 2026 View all Pension Schemes Act 2026 Debates Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Commons Consideration of Lords Message as at 27 April 2026 - large print - (27 Apr 2026)
20:07 - The House divided: - Ayes: 279 / Noes: 164 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Financial privilege is not engaged by any of the items in the Lords message relating to the Bill.
Clause 40
Certain schemes providing money purchase benefits: scale and asset allocation
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Andrew Western)
I beg to move,
That this House insists on its disagreement with the Lords in their Amendments 15 to 24, 27, 30 to 34, 36, 38 to 42, 83 and 88, insists on its amendments 88A, 88C and 88E to 88P to the words restored to the Bill by that disagreement, but proposes further amendments (a) to (f) to the words so restored to the Bill.
I thank the rather shrinking number of peers and hon. Members who have been engaged in the scrutiny of the Bill. It has clearly come a long way since I closed the Second Reading debate. I am glad, in particular, to see that some progress has been made in recent days with the other place’s agreement to this House’s amendments on the approach to defined contribution schemes achieving scale and on the transparency of public sector pension liabilities. That leaves one issue remaining: the Lords amendments on asset allocation. This House has already considered that question twice, and on both occasions it has rejected the Lords’ position by majorities of over 100. At each stage the Government have reiterated the need for the core policy intent to be delivered, while responding with changes to primary legislation that directly address specific issues raised.
I hope the House will bear with me while I explain what we are now proposing, and why I believe it is time for these exchanges to conclude. Let me deal first with the amendments to which we have previously agreed. The reserve power is capped at the Mansion House accord targets: no more than 10% in qualifying assets, and no more than 5% in UK-specific assets. It explicitly applies only to main default funds. Regulations cannot concentrate the requirement in any single asset class. The power can be used only once, and, if unused, lapses entirely in 2032.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
According to the Order Paper,
“The Northern Ireland Assembly, the Scottish Parliament and Senedd Cymru have approved Legislative Consent Resolutions”.
Some of my colleagues in the Assembly back home have expressed some of the concerns that the Lords have expressed. I am conscious of where we are going and where we will end up. Can the Minister please give me some indication of the content of the discussions that took place with the Northern Ireland Assembly? Members of the Legislative Assembly tell me they expressed concern. I am trying to understand how a consent motion could be conveyed and agreed.
Andrew Western
The hon. Gentleman will be aware that conversations are always ongoing to ensure that any legislation that comes from this place can be adopted by all the nations of this great country. I hope that some of the concerns that have continued to be raised by his colleagues, and by peers in the Lords as well, will be addressed by some of the detail that I am about to set out.
As I have said, that power can be used only once, and, if unused, lapses entirely in 2032. Even if it is used, however, the entire asset allocation regime falls out of effect and the statute book at the end of 2035. These provisions rule out any of the more lurid uses we have heard it claimed that the power would be used for, restricting it narrowly to underpinning the Mansion House accord.
As well as insisting on that package, the Government are today introducing further amendments to the savers’ interest test in the proposed new section 28G of the Bill. I remind the House that the reserve power exists because providers have said that they struggle to do something that is in savers’ interests, namely invest in a wider range of assets. However, the savers’ interest test exists for circumstances in which schemes can show that even investing as little as 10% in private assets—far below the levels that we see internationally, or in open defined benefit schemes here in the UK—might not be in their particular savers’ interest. In those circumstances, it allows them a route to seek an exemption from any requirements imposed by the reserve power. Arguments have been made, here and in the other place, about whether the test as drafted included sufficiently clear and strong protections. The Government have reflected on those arguments, and the further amendments before the House today respond to them. There are four changes.
First, we are lowering the threshold for an exemption. The Bill as drafted would have allowed regulations to require a scheme to show that compliance “would cause” material financial detriment. We are changing that to
“would be likely to cause”.
A scheme will need to show that detriment is the probable consequence, not a certain one.
Secondly, the Bill now makes it explicit that when a scheme meets the threshold, the regulator must grant the exemption. That has always been the Government’s intention, and the amendment ensures that there is no room for doubt.
Thirdly—here I want to respond directly to arguments raised by noble Lords about the weight that should be given to the judgment of trustees and scheme managers—we are proposing a change to put their assessment of savers’ interests centre stage. The new text makes clear that the responsible regulator must not only receive the scheme’s own assessment of why compliance would be likely to cause material financial detriment, but be required to have due regard to it. Schemes must set out their reasoning, and the regulator must engage with it properly and thoroughly. “Due regard” is established statutory language with legal weight: it means that the regulator cannot simply pay little or no attention to the scheme’s analysis.
Fourthly, the regulator must give reasons when it refuses an application. That matters because schemes have a right of appeal to the upper tribunal, a right that is strengthened if applicants know why they were turned down.
Let me draw this together. The savers’ interest test now provides a lower threshold, an explicit guarantee that exemptions will be granted when the test is met, a requirement for the regulator to give proper weight to the scheme’s own analysis, and transparency and accountability if an application should fail. Taken alongside the constraints on the power itself—the percentage caps, the single-use restriction, the 2032 sunset and the 2035 full repeal—this is a framework of strong and explicit protections.
There are those, here and in the other place, who would prefer the reserve power not to exist at all. As Members of this House know, we respect that position, but it is not a position that we share and it is not the position of the Government. There is a well-evidenced collective action problem in the defined contribution market, and the consequences of leaving it unresolved would fall on pension savers. That is not a risk that the Government are prepared to take.
This House has made its view clear on two occasions, and the Government have responded by baking in a raft of additional safeguards to primary legislation. This is now a third round of material changes, which I suspect this House may again endorse with a decisive majority. At some point, the question before the House is no longer the detail of the amendments, but whether the other place should continue to reject the clearly expressed view of the elected House and delay the passage of a Bill that delivers for savers in a whole host of ways. I urge the House to send these amendments back to the other place, and to bring these exchanges to a close.
Helen Whately (Faversham and Mid Kent) (Con)
First, may I thank the hon. Gentleman for opening this evening’s debate, and for setting out the latest Government amendments, in place of the Pensions Minister? These ping-pong sessions with the hon. Member for Swansea West (Torsten Bell) have become a regular in my diary, and I will miss him this evening.
When this Bill was introduced last summer, we said that much of it was a sensible step forward that built on the work of the previous Conservative Government. We stand by that view, but supporting the broad direction of a Bill does not mean unqualified support for its every provision. Throughout its passage, we have challenged the Government on the local government pension scheme, on member communications and on the scale requirements in the Bill, but you will be pleased to know that those debates are behind us, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Today, there is just one issue left: mandation, or, as the Government prefer to call it, the reserve power—a power that sat in clause 40 until the noble Lords once again removed it from the Bill last Wednesday. The Government’s case for this power is straightforward: they want more pension investment in private markets and, by extension, more pension investment in the UK. That was the ambition behind the Mansion House accord, and it is an ambition that we share. We want to see the accord succeed, we want more productive investment, and we want pension capital to work harder for savers, but although the ambition is right, this policy is not. Mandation is the wrong lever to achieve those aims.
As the House has heard from me and my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) at each stage of this Bill, mandation is flawed both in principle and in practice. The Government may call it a reserve power, but everyone knows what it is: a threat hanging over pension schemes if they do not fall into line. The Mansion House accord was a voluntary agreement built on trust, with mutual commitments between industry and the Government. Mandation replaces trust with a threat in law. Why would the pension sector, or in fact any sector, ever try to come together and agree a voluntary pact with the Government again if it is hammered into law a few months later?
Mandation puts in statute a power that, though more limited in its current manifestation, could be put to all manner of uses. It cuts across the fundamental duty of trustees to act in the best interests of savers; instead, that duty is trumped by Government requirements in law. It means that pension savings, or a share of them, will be put to work to serve the interests of the Government, not the interests of the saver who wants their pension to provide them with a decent income in later life. Perhaps most seriously of all, mandation risks undermining public trust in the pension system. That is why the power is not just unnecessary; it is dangerous and has no place in this Bill.
I will now turn to the Government’s latest amendments on mandation that are before us today, which apply to the so-called savers’ interest test. At the moment, if a pension scheme believes that complying with the Government’s mandation power would not be in the members’ interests, it may apply for an exemption, but to secure one, it must show that compliance would cause “material financial detriment” for members. That is an extraordinarily high bar. The Government have heard the concerns raised in this House and the other place, particularly by Lady Bowles, and have now brought forward further amendments.
The Minister told us that the amendments will strengthen the exemption process. Well, they do make it slightly easier for schemes to argue that a mandated investment allocation may damage returns. Instead of having to prove that mandation “would” cause material financial detriment, schemes will now need to show that such detriment is just “likely”—we have gone from “would” to “likely”. Frankly, if the Minister thinks that this one-word change offers a truly robust safeguard, I urge him to think again.
The need for these amendments tells its own story: the Government accept that mandation risks conflicting with the duties that trustees and pension providers owe to savers. If no such conflict existed, there would be no need at all for an exemption process. The right to appeal, enhanced through today’s amendments, demonstrates that Ministers accept that mandation may force schemes away from doing what is in their members’ best interests. Under the amended Bill, schemes must still prove likely financial harm before they are allowed to do what is best for savers. That misunderstands the principle at the heart of fiduciary duty. Trustees should not need state approval to act in the best interests of their members. These amendments just tinker at the margins; they do not fix the flaw in the policy.
I have been talking in somewhat technical terms, but I want to remind the House of the consequences of what we are talking about. If the Government push pension schemes into the wrong investments, those investments underperform and savers end up with weaker returns, who carries the can? Not the Minister, who has stepped in valiantly today, and not the Government, who legislated for this power. It will be pensioners, who will retire with less. Let us remember whose pensions we are talking about here. Who is most likely to suffer if the Government turn out to be a poor asset manager? The millions of workers who contribute via auto-enrolment—people who have never chosen an investment strategy, but who trust pension providers to do the right thing on their behalf.
Those people are not poring over fund fact sheets; they are getting on with work and supporting themselves and their families, hoping that one day they will be able to retire with financial security. This policy asks those savers to place their trust not in pension managers, but in Government Ministers. In doing so, it risks undermining the very trust on which auto-enrolment depends. We can debate whether the level of auto-enrolment is right, but no one challenges whether it is a good thing overall. Yet the Government are putting at risk this success story, around which there has been great political consensus, and the consequences do not stop with pension savers.
What signal does this send to the wider investment community? We hear that major City reforms are to come in the King’s Speech, but will the market really greet those reforms with confidence if this Bill becomes law with mandation in it? Confidence would be created if investors could see that the Government are committed to making the UK a good place to invest in. Mandation sends the opposite message. It tells people that we have a Government who are prepared to go where the UK state does not usually go: to get involved in the allocation of private capital. It tells people that the Government will take a shortcut to getting investment in the UK by forcing pension schemes to do so, rather than fixing the underlying problems. I do not think that the Minister’s colleagues have really thought this through. The easy answer is rarely the right answer.
Where does that leave us? It leaves us at an impasse, with agreement on the diagnosis but profound disagreement on the prescription. We all want more pension investment in the UK, and the Conservatives support moving from a focus on cost to a focus on value. We support removing barriers to the Mansion House accord, but there is no consensus for state compulsion. Pensions belong to the people who earn them, not Ministers. I have yet to find anyone who wants to trust a politician with their hard-earned pension savings, but that is exactly what the Government are trying to force on the country’s savers through this Bill.
Today the Minister finds himself tasked with defending the indefensible, and one provision is preventing an otherwise good Bill from passing. The Government amendments make mandation less bad, but if something is wrong in principle, it does not become right in smaller doses. I leave the Government with one simple message: remove mandation, and the job is done—this Bill will pass.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
Steve Darling (Torbay) (LD)
As the shadow Secretary of State has said, there is a lot to be welcomed in the Bill. In considering the Bill, we have looked to Australia and Canada, and at best practice throughout the world, and there is much we have drawn from. For the Liberal Democrats, the pensions world that we are looking to enter with this Bill is greatly to be welcomed. Up and down the United Kingdom—from Tobermory in Mull to Torbay in Devon—we desperately need greater investment in our economy. We must make sure that we have a productive economy, but mandation is not the way to achieve that.
Andrew Western
I recognise, as the shadow Secretary of State set out, that there has been a great deal of consensus on many aspects of the Bill, and that we are wrangling merely over this one remaining issue. The Opposition argue that this power is wrong in principle, but we fundamentally disagree. We have had this debate on a number of occasions, including on Second Reading. I set out in my opening speech why this continues to be the Government’s position, and we have heard the arguments against.
I gently point out that the shadow Secretary of State’s letter to industry last week conceded that in the absence of this sort of power, funds are understandably cautious about being first movers, and that is a legitimate concern. That is the collective action problem that we have. The Mansion House compact has been running since 2023, but progress has been modest. The industry has identified competitive pressure to keep costs low as the single biggest barrier to delivering on its own commitments. In other words, providers want to diversify in their members’ interests, but they risk being undercut on cost by competitors that do not. The reserve power gives the market confidence to move together.
We have also heard that the power undermines fiduciary duty—it does not. Trustees’ duties of loyalty and prudence, and to act in members’ best interests, remain.
Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con)
With the greatest respect, the Minister is talking nonsense. At the end of the day, every trustee has a fiduciary duty to get the best return for their members. By putting in these mandation powers, the Government are fundamentally going against the most basic principle of the City of London, which is dictum meum pactum—my word is my bond. The Government entered into a pact with the industry, and they are now reneging on that pact by introducing mandation and not allowing the industry to move things forward. The Government are so wrong on this whole point. The Minister should withdraw the mandation powers and get rid of clause 40.
Andrew Western
I am sorry to disappoint the hon. Gentleman, but that is not going to happen. We have to deal with the collective action problem that we are facing, to ensure that providers can move forward with the commitments that they have made. The power gives them assurance, but we hope that we will never need to use the power. The fact of the matter is that the industry requires that certainty; without it, it will not be able to move forward, given the collective action problem that exists. That point has been accepted by the shadow Secretary of State.
Helen Whately
The hon. Gentleman is quoting selectively from a letter that I have written to the industry. We had this exact debate with the Pensions Minister last week. There is an acknowledged and debated collective action problem; on that, there is a level of consensus, but there is no consensus that mandation is the right answer. In fact, there is a consensus in the sector that mandation is the wrong answer. This Bill contains measures that will make a difference, and will go towards fixing this collective action problem, such as the value for money framework. The Mansion House accord was only signed last year, and the Government should give it time to work. We do not need mandation in this Bill.
Andrew Western
On the consensus in the industry, I say to the hon. Lady that it wants this Bill done and taken through this House. Tonight’s amendments make the savers’ interest test easier to pass, create a lower threshold for an exemption, and give certainty that the exemption will be granted where the threshold is met, with due regard being paid to the scheme’s assessment. Reasons for any refusal will be set out.
The House has now considered this Bill three times. On each occasion, it has endorsed the Government’s position. We have listened to the concerns raised in the other place, and we have responded with numerous material changes to the primary legislation across three rounds. The power is capped, neutral across asset classes, restricted to a single use, completely sunsetted in 2035 and subject to a savers’ interest test that tonight’s amendments have materially strengthened.
The TUC has said that it is “vital” that this Bill passes. Age UK has said that the measures in this Bill
“will help both today’s and tomorrow’s pensioners”.
The industry wants to get on with implementing these reforms. The Association of British Insurers and its members have said the same. They have welcomed the safeguards that the Government have put in place on the reserve power. It is time to get this Bill passed, and I commend the Government’s position to the House.
Question put.
Northern Ireland Troubles Bill (Carry-over)
Monday 27th April 2026
(3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Northern Ireland Troubles Bill 2024-26 View all Northern Ireland Troubles Bill 2024-26 Debates Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Notices of Amendments as at 24 April 2026 - large print - (24 Apr 2026)
21:50 - The House divided: - Ayes: 279 / Noes: 176 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)
I remind the House that this is a procedural motion about whether the Bill ought to be carried over to the next Session of Parliament. While I will allow some leeway on scope, I gently encourage Members to focus their remarks on the issue of carry-over.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Hilary Benn)
I beg to move,
That if, at the conclusion of this Session of Parliament, proceedings on the Northern Ireland Troubles Bill have not been completed, they shall be resumed in the next Session.
This motion will enable the House to progress the Northern Ireland Troubles Bill, which is essential to remedy the failure of the previous Government’s Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023. I am grateful for the careful scrutiny of the Bill by both the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee and the Joint Committee on Human Rights. If dealing with legacy was easy, this aim of the Good Friday agreement would have been resolved a long time ago. It is not easy; it is very difficult, not least because there are many different and opposing views. We have a responsibility to do this for those affected by the troubles, including the many people who lost loved ones and are still searching for answers. I believe there is recognition across the House that we need to address the legacy of the troubles, because, after so many attempts, this is our last chance.
Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab)
I thank the Secretary of State for the way in which he has carried out his work on the Northern Ireland Troubles Bill with such sensitivity to all parties. However, I would also like him to explain and give more detail on the responsibility to the victims and survivors of the troubles, as well as the special duty of care to our veterans.
Hilary Benn
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who chairs the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee with such distinction, and I will come directly to addressing the two questions she has just asked.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
I represent a very large number of veterans. What are they to make of the remarks made by the Attorney General, who has suggested to his human rights lawyer friends that they have done more for the sum total of human happiness than the brave, highly decorated men and women of our armed forces, many of whom I have the honour and privilege to represent?
Hilary Benn
I would simply say that I think the whole House acknowledges the brave service of our veterans in many, many difficult circumstances, and that is one reason that this carry-over motion is necessary.
Dr Kieran Mullan (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)
Will the Secretary of State give way?
Hilary Benn
I ask the hon. Gentleman to bear with me.
Whatever its intentions, the legacy Act did not work. Its central provision—immunity—had no backing in Northern Ireland, has been found by our domestic courts to be incompatible with our international legal obligations and was never commenced by the previous Government. Immunity has been rejected by victims and families. Immunity is not supported by the three veterans commissioners, who have said that they do not call for immunity from the law, but fairness under it.
Hilary Benn
I hope that our armed forces personnel will listen to what I am about to say and see both the protections that are currently in the Bill and the commitment the Government have made to bring forward further such protections. Indeed, the Bill will put in place a means of dealing with legacy that is legally compliant and will hopefully, in time, command broad public support in Northern Ireland and across the United Kingdom. It will also result in the unprecedented sharing of records by the Irish authorities with the new Legacy Commission as a result of the framework agreement reached with the Irish Government.
Since its introduction in October 2025, the troubles Bill has been welcomed by a significant number of victims’ families and representative groups. Many recognise that while it cannot be the perfect Bill for them, it balances many of the different interests and provides a basis on which families’ cases can be taken forward sensitively and lawfully.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I spoke to the Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland before the debate started to check in on what he was putting forward. There is some indication that protections will be put forward that Ministers hope will support the armed forces, but there are no similar protections whatsoever being offered to personnel of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and other branches of service in Northern Ireland. Some 319 RUC members gave their lives during the troubles, while thousands were injured; they deserve the same protection and help. Can the Secretary of State indicate what protections will be offered to the RUC personnel who gave so much for us, for their freedom and liberty?
Hilary Benn
The protections that are contained in the Bill currently will apply to RUC personnel and others who served the state, and the hon. Gentleman will see the further amendments that we will bring forward.
I would point out that every Member of the House has just received a letter from Joe McVey, the Commissioner for Victims and Survivors for Northern Ireland, urging us to vote for this motion tonight and making the argument that
“beyond every clause and every amendment there are people whose lives have been shaped by loss”.
One important part of the Bill is the consideration it gives to those who served the state so bravely in the form of protections for veterans and police officers to ensure that they are treated fairly and with dignity and respect. In recent months, as I set out in my written ministerial statement last week, my ministerial colleagues and I have been consulting widely on the legislation. We have been very grateful for the time that veterans groups have spent with us, explaining how they think our legacy processes need to be improved. That is why we are putting in place new protections: no repeated investigations; an end to cold calling; requiring consideration to be given to the age and welfare of veterans; and enabling any veteran asked to give evidence to do so remotely and anonymously.
In Committee, I will be bringing forward a substantial package of amendments to further strengthen those safeguards, including clearly differentiating between the lawful actions of soldiers and police and the unlawful actions of paramilitary terrorists, and to put in place arrangements to oversee how those protections operate in practice. Without the Bill, all those new protections—which were not in the legacy Act—would not be there for veterans while the commission continues its work, including investigations. That would be a complete abdication of our responsibilities to families and veterans, who would face continuing uncertainty. Is that really what those who have expressed concerns about the Bill want to see happen?
Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)
For several months now, including when the Secretary of State has appeared before the Select Committee, he has in all good faith promised these amendments. Does he understand that his case this evening would be assisted if the House were to see those amendments? The motion effectively asks us to sign a blank cheque on a promissory note when we have no idea what it might contain.
Hilary Benn
The best way to ensure that the hon. Gentleman and the whole House see the amendments is to pass the carry-over motion tonight.
Mr Paul Foster (South Ribble) (Lab)
Will the Secretary of State be absolutely clear that if the Bill is not passed, veterans will have no protection whatsoever moving forward?
Hilary Benn
That is self-evidently the case, because the protections that I just read out, which the Government have put in this legislation, would not exist. That is a powerful argument why the Bill should carry over.
Hilary Benn
I hope the hon. and learned Gentleman will forgive me; many Members want to speak.
I will turn briefly to some of the arguments that will be made against carrying over the Bill, because I think it is important that we conduct this debate on a shared understanding of the facts.
First, on prosecutions, in the last 28 years just one soldier of the 250,000 who served in Operation Banner has been convicted of a troubles-related offence. During all that time there have continued to be inquests and cases investigated. The truth is that the chances of prosecutions are rapidly diminishing. Secondly, I remind the House that the basis on which any decision about a prosecution is made rests, as it always has done, with independent prosecutors. No one who has done their duty lawfully has anything to fear. Thirdly, on the claim that paramilitaries—in particular the IRA—were given amnesty by the on-the-run letters, they were not. At the moment, there are eight troubles cases in which suspected paramilitaries have been charged with murder or attempted murder, including of soldiers and members of the RUC.
Let us not forget that, when in government, the Conservative party wanted to give immunity to terrorists. That is what the legislation said. Members and colleagues will be aware that there are many unsolved killings of British service personnel, whose families deserve answers, including of those in a number of the most deadly IRA attacks, such as Guildford, Warrenpoint and the M62 coach bombing. The Opposition’s argument against the motion rests on their wish to return to immunity, which never existed and is wrong in principle.
Several hon. Members rose—
Hilary Benn
I will conclude my remarks, because many Members want to contribute.
I am acutely aware of the stress that many have described in going through legacy processes, which is precisely why we will put the strongest possible safeguards in the Bill. If this motion is carried, the Bill will be brought back to the House early in the new Session for a Committee of the whole House, where I will welcome the scrutiny of all Members to ensure that we get this right. This Bill is about creating a legacy process in which all involved can have confidence. I hope that we can work together constructively and with the care that the families of all those who were killed or seriously injured deserve, to ensure that this legislation and the further amendments that we will make are given careful consideration in Committee.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
I call the shadow Secretary of State.
Alex Burghart (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con)
At the outset, I pay tribute to the veterans who came to Parliament Square today, the veterans who have sent messages of support and are watching at home, and the veterans who are with us in the Gallery. I also pay tribute to the shadow Defence team, who have done so much to hold this Government to account for the mistake that they are making.
Mr Calvin Bailey (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
Will the hon. Member give way?
Alex Burghart
No.
We are now entering the season finale of the tragedy that is this Government’s Northern Ireland Troubles Bill. It has been a long season. Despite taking office in July 2024, with a manifesto commitment to repeal and replace the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023, they have taken 15 months to bring this Bill to the House. Despite a Second Reading in November, nearly six months ago, the legislation has gone nowhere. Despite bringing forward their remedial order to strike down parts of the legacy Act in January, the Government have since failed to bring it before the Lords, because they know that the Lords do not support it. The troubles Bill is stuck in a legislative purgatory,
“Doomed for a certain term to walk the night”
till its “foul crimes” are “burnt…away.” The reason for that is an open secret in Westminster. The truth is that the Bill is trapped between the Northern Ireland Office, the Ministry of Defence and No.10, with the Prime Minister and his team unable and unwilling to make a decision about what the outcome will be. We have read this script before.
For its part, the Northern Ireland Office is simply carrying out the orders of the Prime Minister when he came to power—the instruction in the Labour manifesto—and the orders of Lord Hermer, the Attorney General, about whom, it must be said, some extremely serious allegations have been made in recent days: not least that he may have drafted or approved documents alleging serious crimes by soldiers without reasonably credible evidence, and that he continued pushing settlements after being told that his clients were lying.
The Ministry of Defence is all too aware of the open hostility held towards this legislation by members of the armed forces, present and past. It is all too aware of the dangers the Bill presents to morale, retention and perhaps even recruitment, but its Ministers are not always prepared to say what needs to be said in order to get their way.
Mr Bailey
I thank the Minister for giving way. We are having this debate because in hindsight the military forces deployed in Northern Ireland were not provided with adequate protection. If the hon. Gentleman genuinely cared about veterans and the protection of members of the forces in future, he would have submitted amendments to the Armed Forces Bill to prevent a recurrence. Can he make us aware of any such amendments?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
Order. I gently remind Members that interventions should be short and to the point.
Alex Burghart
I strongly encourage the hon. Gentleman to take time to read the Armed Forces Bill amendment paper. The two gentlemen sitting either side of me, my right hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois) and my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge), have tabled very many amendments. I encourage the hon. Gentleman to go out this evening and to try to find one veterans organisation that supports what his party is trying to do with this Bill.
Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)
The hon. Gentleman is the shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland so he should know the lie of the land there. He has talked a lot about veterans. Has he read the letter from Sandra Peake, the director of the WAVE trauma centre? She is an unimpeachable character, who has stood up on behalf of all kinds of victims. She is imploring us to put the Bill through tonight so that we can properly scrutinise it. Has he read that letter? Is he going to mention victims at all in his speech?
Alex Burghart
I have read that letter. I have great respect for the WAVE trust; I did some work with it when I first came to the House. I respectfully disagree with what is in that letter, for reasons that I will set out in due course.
Dr Kieran Mullan (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that any Government Member, including Ministers, who wants to be taken seriously by armed forces personnel needs to condemn the remarks of Lord Hermer and the disgraceful disparaging of our armed forces?
Alex Burghart
My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and there will be ample opportunity for them to do so tonight.
Tonight the Government and Labour Back Benchers have a choice, and the choice is simple: to reject this controversial and unloved legislation, which promises much but would do no good.
Alex Burghart
We will get to immunity in a moment, but the Labour party needs to look down within its soul and its history before it says such things.
The Bill will reopen the door to vexatious litigation. It will drag old soldiers through the courts and subject split-second decisions taken under high stress decades ago to the post hoc algorithm of a legal framework that did not exist at that time. The hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Mr Bailey) said that military forces were not given adequate protection at the time—what has happened subsequently is that the legal framework has changed beneath their feet and held them accountable in a way that could never have been intended at that time.
Esther McVey (Tatton) (Con)
Is the shadow Secretary of State more surprised that the promised amendments leaked to the papers at the weekend are missing from the debate or that the Armed Forces Minister is missing from the Chamber and will not be here to vote for this disgraceful carry-over motion, because he knows that it should not be voted for?
Alex Burghart
I am sad to say that I am not surprised by either of those things. I am not surprised that the Government are living on vague promises to table amendments—despite having had six months to do so. I am sorry to say that I am not surprised that certain Government Front-Bench Members have chosen to absent themselves while expecting Labour Back Benchers to turn up and go through the Lobby without them.
Jim Allister
The Member refers to the absence of publication of any amendments by the Secretary of State—promised, but not delivered. Might that be because this Secretary of State, who has embarrassingly shown himself to be wholly beholden to the Dublin Government, has not yet got their approval for those amendments? Might that be the truth of the matter?
Alex Burghart
I fear that the hon. and learned Gentleman is right. This morning, we saw that Sinn Féin have spoken out in opposition to the very idea of amendments, so we wonder how it will be possible for the Secretary of State to table amendments without the agreement of Dublin, without the agreement of Sinn Féin, and without the whole framework he has built collapsing beneath him.
The Bill promises victims the earth. It raises their hopes, but I am afraid that in practice it will offer nothing in the way of conclusion or finality. That is because although there will be court cases, inquests, trials, reviews and challenges, as the Secretary of State himself has said, the prospect of conviction now is vanishingly small. The number of answers that victims will get will be minimal. All the while, veterans will be hauled before the courts, investigated for years and subjected to all the pain and ignominy that that will bring. The process has become the punishment. That is why none of the amendments that the Government are speculating to the press about tabling will do anything to solve the problem before us.
The Opposition have long argued that a different approach is necessary: one that draws a line under the conflict, draws a line under the legal conflict that has subsequently followed and builds a new system that builds on the strengths of the peace process as it was defined in 1998. In 1998 it was understood that there could be immunity in return for information; it underpins the legislation brought forward to support the peace process. That is why we have legislation on the destruction of weapons; it enables forensic information to be destroyed. It is why we have legislation that enables people to come forward and reveal where bodies are buried without fear of prosecution; that is immunity. It is why we had letters of comfort and royal pardons of mercy. It was understood that immunity would be an essential part of the peace process, for everyone who was not a veteran.
Tonia Antoniazzi
I thank the shadow Secretary of State for giving way. However, this faux outrage was never—[Interruption.] My Committee has done some excellent work on this very sensitive matter, and when we were in Westminster Hall there was no faux outrage. These people did not turn up to speak up for the veterans they speak of now. The Secretary of State is doing an excellent job—so is my Committee—and I find it very wrong that these matters are being presented in this way on the Floor of the House. We need a carry-over motion. We need to be in a better place, where there will be amendments.
Alex Burghart
I genuinely respect the hon. Lady and the work that her Committee does, and she will remember that I was at that Westminster Hall debate. I must respectfully say that my outrage is not faux; I feel this very deeply. I have spent a lot of time talking to the people who are affected by this.
When the peace process was going through, when Labour was in power, it had no problem at all with creating immunity, and in 2005—as the Secretary of State will remember, because he was in the Cabinet at the time—Peter Hain, the then Secretary of State, brought forward a Bill that would have given immunity to terrorists, and terrorists alone. It was removed only when, under pressure from the Conservative party, the Government agreed to introduce immunity for veterans and Sinn Féin pulled its support, so the Government pulled the Bill.
Immunity is one of the things on which the peace process was founded, yet now in government, the Labour party has forgotten all about this and said it cannot possibly apply to anyone again. The Labour party has said that it cannot support immunity, and yet it used to. Similarly, the Government have said that they cannot support our legislation on the grounds that there was no support for it in Northern Ireland, but I am afraid that by that criterion this legislation has also failed, because where is the support for it in Northern Ireland? It is not there among Northern Ireland Members, and it is not on the streets of Belfast. This is an unloved Bill. There are lots of people who appreciate that this is the wrong way of going about things.
Jim Shannon
One thing that really concerns me is that this carry-over motion has been pressed by the Irish Government. That absolutely boggles my mind. The double standard is entirely shocking. The Irish Government need to be held to account for their role in protecting IRA murderers across the border. We think of all those ones who were murdered: Kenneth Smyth, my cousin; Daniel McCormick, his comrade; Lexie Cummings, and Stuart Montgomery. They were just four, but there were many, many more. Whenever there were murders, the murderers raced across the border. Does the hon. Gentleman share my anger on behalf of my constituents and my family, who want to know why the Irish Government have more say in this than the victims of Northern Ireland, my family and others?
Alex Burghart
My hon. Friend always speaks incredibly powerfully on this point.
The Government have also argued that our Bill was found to be incompatible with human rights legislation, but that is only partly true. The truth is that the Government failed to challenge the findings in the courts, and those findings themselves were highly questionable. There are high-level, highly credible legal arguments that show that the legacy Act may well have not been incompatible, precisely because the same logic around immunity had been used in 1998. So unless we are prepared to say that the legislation passed during the peace process is itself potentially incompatible with human rights law, the argument on the legacy Act falls. This is what is being considered in the case of Dillon before the Supreme Court now. The Government cannot argue that that legislation was incompatible with human rights, because they failed to see the process to its conclusion.
All of that has been made clearer and clearer over the lifetime of this law’s delay. In the time that it has taken the Bill only to get through its Second Reading, we have seen, starkly and painfully, regular real-life examples of the problems it will perpetuate. I will give a few small examples. In February, this House debated the terrible ruling in the Clonoe case. This was the case from February 1992, when four men—known terrorists armed with semi-automatic weapons and a Dushka machine gun capable of firing 600 rounds a minute at a range of 1,100 yards—attacked a Royal Ulster Constabulary police station and were in transit to commit further crimes. They were confronted by members of the armed forces, who killed them. Those terrorists called themselves an army, carried weapons of war, sought to kill and operated entirely outside the bounds of any law, yet we were asked to believe that the use of lethal force against them was not justified. I am afraid that that case is now being challenged, and the men involved are being subject to unjust and unfair scrutiny of decisions they made in a split second, decades ago. Nothing in the amendments that the Secretary of State has discussed with the press will do anything about that.
In November, we debated the findings in the case against Soldier F from Bloody Sunday. He was found not guilty after the longest and most intricate inquiry in British legal history. Indeed, Judge Patrick Lynch told Belfast Crown Court that the evidence even then fell “well short” of the standard required. He said:
“A 53-year-old statement cannot be cross-examined, nor can I assess the demeanour of a sheet of A4 paper”.
The House must see again that it is becoming vanishingly difficult to get convictions, because the 1998 agreement was 27 years ago and the ceasefire began 31 years ago. Nothing in the Secretary of State’s proposed amendments or in this Bill will do anything to right that situation.
Several times the case of Soldier B, a former SAS officer, has been raised in the Commons. In October, the case was thrown out by a court in Belfast, where the judge described it as “ludicrous” and said it should never have come to his court—but not before the man in question had been investigated for four years. A further challenge was then mounted despite the judge having said it was “ludicrous”, and only recently has the veteran in question been freed from the weight of that.
I am afraid that if the Government’s Bill goes ahead, we will see a return to this repeat investigation of innocent men who will be dragged through the courts, and then at the end the legal cavalcade will move on, leaving them bearing the emotional burden of being investigated for having done nothing wrong. Nothing that has been speculated about in the press this weekend will do anything to right that wrong.
Joe Robertson (Isle of Wight East) (Con)
My hon. Friend is articulating it perfectly. Does he agree that the principle of innocent until proven guilty is no comfort at all for these people who are subjected to years of gruelling inquiry just to establish what we already know: they are innocent?
Alex Burghart
My hon. Friend is quite right. The process has become the punishment. The process is being used to continue the conflict by other means.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
Would the hon. Member accept that when the process exonerates the soldiers and the veterans at the end, the whole point of the process and taking them to the court in the first place is to give the daily headlines in the paper to allow Sinn Féin and the IRA to rewrite the history of the troubles?
Alex Burghart
I must agree with the right hon. Gentleman that this is clearly what vexatious litigation looks like. This is vexatious litigation moved against men who did nothing wrong but are now confronted with a legal framework that creates endless potential for challenge against them.
Colum Eastwood
Has the shadow Secretary of State read the Saville report? He referenced the Saville inquiry not that long ago. Has he read what it says about Soldier F, about how many people he killed that day—unarmed, innocent people marching for civil rights shot down in cold blood by Soldier F, by his own admission? Has he read that?
Alex Burghart
I have read the Saville inquiry, and the hon. Member will have just heard me say that even after one of the longest, most expensive and detailed public inquiries in British legal history, it was impossible to get a conviction. Yet we are asking victims in Northern Ireland to believe that there will be some magical moment where suddenly it would be possible to get convictions in other cases. That, the House must understand, is for the birds; it will not happen. Victims will have their hopes raised and dashed in front of this legislation.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
Does the hon. Member agree that if ever there was a demonstration of the two-tier process in terms of legacy, we have it as a result of the Saville report? The same Saville report that was used to pursue Soldier F contained an assertion that Martin McGuinness probably had a submachine gun on the same day. He was never questioned, never mind pursued or taken to court—not once.
Alex Burghart
The hon. Gentleman raises a significant issue about the terrible events of Bloody Sunday, but I will not attempt to relitigate the whole of the Saville inquiry this evening—I understand the remarks that both the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) have made.
Similarly, over the past few months, very senior veterans, senior generals and former members of the special forces have come out decisively against the Bill. On Armistice Day, in an unprecedented intervention, nine four-star generals wrote to warn that highly trained members of the special forces are already leaving the service. In January, seven SAS commanders wrote of the acute dangers of how
“a peacetime human rights framework”
now wields
“an effective veto over efforts to close the past.”
Last month, Generals Wall and Parker wrote that
“those who…did their duty in circumstances not of their making…are left exposed, without the shield of context or accountability that should rightfully belong to the state”.
This month, we read public reports that members of the special forces are quitting because they sense that the lawyers of the future will come after them.
I implore the House, on moral, practical and political grounds, not to support the Bill. I know that Labour Members will not wish to take it from me—and they do not have to—but they should take it from generals and special forces veterans who have dedicated so much of their lives to protecting their country and do not want to see their comrades-in-arms persecuted or their country weakened and put at risk. As politicians, I draw the attention of Labour Members to the fact that the Bill is not beloved by their constituents. They are being sent through the Lobbies tonight by people who may well change their position tomorrow.
The failings of the Bill, should it be passed, will be quickly seen but long felt. The House has the power to stop it tonight. If we do not, and the Government persist, the next Conservative Administration will repeal it and once again draw a line under the troubles.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
Order. The House will be aware that Mr Speaker has granted a limited waiver in this case to allow limited reference to active legal proceedings relating to historic troubles-related deaths. I remind Members that references to those cases should be limited to the context and the events that led to those cases, but should not refer to the details of the cases or to the names of those involved in them.
I will start by imposing a four-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches, as I will be calling the Secretary of State no later than 9.46 pm.
Mr Bayo Alaba (Southend East and Rochford) (Lab)
This debate is deeply personal for me, because, in addition to being the Member for Southend East and Rochford, I am a proud former paratrooper.
For me and countless others with military backgrounds like my own, the legacy of the troubles is not a distant memory but something that our community continues to carry the weight of. Back in November, I brought members of the Parachute Regimental Association, together with officials from the Northern Ireland Office and the Ministry of Defence. I had one simple aim: to ensure that veterans had a voice and their concerns about the Bill were heard clearly and directly. I thank those officials for their attendance and engagement.
Let me be clear: the legislation passed by the Conservative Government must be updated. This is not myth or fallacy; indeed, even some Conservative Members have acknowledged that the current legislation is inadequate. It troubles me when colleagues from this House head over to Parliament Square, as they did this afternoon, not to engage with former colleagues or members of their local military associations, but to “virtue signal”, as my teenage daughter would put it. Our duty as parliamentarians is to lead, make difficult decisions and speak with honesty and sincerity. It is not to spew negative and dangerous rhetoric, as some across this Chamber seem intent on doing. They parade around with lapel badges larger than some solar panels and bearing the slogan, “Proud of my country, ashamed of this government.” That does not help or resolve this issue, and it is certainly not why the public voted us into this special place. It is dangerous and unproductive noise.
However, I must be equally clear that, as it stands, the Bill leaves many questions unanswered and needs additional work. We cannot afford to rush it. Although justice must be delivered, we must also take the time to ensure that the legislation delivers the protections that our veterans need and deserve. Those who served in Northern Ireland followed orders and put their lives on the line to defend our country, and they cannot be an afterthought in this process. So I say to the Government that we should take the time to get this right, to continue our engagement, to listen to those who serve and the families who lost loved ones, and to ensure that before the Bill moves to its next stage veterans can have full confidence that it will deliver what is intended without creating serious unintended consequences that cannot be later undone.
In conclusion, I say that, to every member of our armed forces community who has served and those who continue to serve, we owe a debt that cannot be repaid. And to those watching from the Gallery today, I say thank you: thank you for standing up for the memory of those we have lost and for standing together to protect those who are yet to serve.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
I call the Liberal Democrats spokesperson.
Mr Paul Kohler (Wimbledon) (LD)
The Liberal Democrats are committed to ensuring all those who served to uphold the rule of law during Operation Banner are treated with dignity and afforded proper legal protection. As a Member of a parliamentary party whose percentage of veterans is well into double figures, I assure the House that their experience informs my party’s approach and strengthens our determination to assist the Secretary of State in getting this right.
Before I address the substance of this motion, however, I would like briefly to correct something I said to the hon. Member for South Shropshire (Stuart Anderson) when we last debated this hugely consequential matter. In response to his intervention during the debate on the Government’s remedial order, I said that the percentage of veterans in my parliamentary party is greater than in his. During my research for today’s speech, however, I discovered that, while we are close, that is not the case. In my defence, what with the ever-dwindling number of Conservative MPs it is hard to keep track of the denominator in that equation, but I none the less apologise to the hon. Member and this House for my error.
This debate provides an opportunity to judge whether the troubles Bill is fit for purpose, commands confidence and does justice to those it seeks to serve. On all three counts it gives me no pleasure to conclude it currently falls far short.
As I hope the Secretary of State recognises, the Liberal Democrats have engaged with the troubles Bill constructively from the outset. Although we voted with the Conservatives on their reasoned amendment to kill the Bill, we broke with them to abstain on Second Reading to signify that, while we are deeply unsatisfied with many of the provisions, protections and omissions in the troubles Bill, we remain opposed to the blanket immunity confirmed by the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023, somewhat delphically described as “conditional” immunity by the Conservatives even though the only condition is the admission of guilt.
As a party that believes in the rule of law and fulfilling our international obligations under the European convention on human rights, we also supported the Government’s subsequent remedial order, which simply removed two provisions where the Northern Ireland Court of Appeal issued declarations of incompatibility with the Human Rights Act 1998, one of which has never even been brought into force. Sadly, the Conservative party sought to weaponise that vote by creating a false dichotomy between veterans and victims, cynically pitching one against the other, seemingly oblivious to the fact that those two categories are far from mutually exclusive.
Cases like that of Private Tony Harrison, murdered by the IRA in 1991, bring this into sharp focus. His family has spent years seeking truth and accountability, only for legislation granting blanket immunity to terrorists to strip away hope that those responsible would ever be properly investigated, charged or convicted. Or there is Patsy Gillespie, who worked in an Army base and in 1990 was strapped into a van by the IRA while his wife and children were held at gunpoint—a hero whose last act was to shout a warning that saved the lives of many before he and five members of the King’s Regiment died as the bomb went off.
The Conservatives, who claim to have always had our veterans’ backs, had little to say when their own legislation barred investigations into the maiming and murder of hundreds of state actors such as these. There is a stark irony here: a party that claims to stand by veterans introduced a system that precluded justice for the families of those very veterans, which is why every veterans organisation with which I am working is opposed to these callous attempts to use the very real plight of our veterans in a nakedly political assault on the Human Rights Act.
The Liberal Democrats remain adamant that supporting the remedial order was the right thing to do. It was a narrow technical measure to remove two unlawful provisions granting blanket immunity to paramilitaries and veterans alike. We consistently opposed these measures in the last Parliament as contrary to the rule of law and drawing an inappropriate moral equivalence between terrorists and servants of the state. More importantly, all the veterans’ organisations with whom I am working oppose those provisions, as do every political party and community in Northern Ireland.
However, voting in favour of the remedial order does not require us to do likewise regarding the Bill before us, because despite many months of patient negotiation between the NIO, veterans’ groups and commissioners, Opposition parties and the MOD, the Bill remains deeply flawed. The central issue is the lack of sufficient protections for veterans and failing to address the very real danger that the process becomes the punishment.
The Secretary of State heralds his six safeguards, but even he has now acknowledged that they do not go far enough. As currently drafted, there is no clear statutory threshold for repeat investigations without genuinely new evidence, no firm presumption in favour of remote participation, and limited clarity around how welfare, proportionality and the cumulative impact of past investigations will be applied in practice. Under the current Bill, veterans will continue to face uncertainty around repeat investigations, the threshold for reopening cases and the circumstances in which they may be required to engage again with investigatory processes.
I acknowledge that the Secretary of State has made clear his intention to bring forward amendments, but we currently have no idea how extensive those will be. There is still no confirmed date for the Committee stage, which has been repeatedly delayed and is still planned to be a Committee of the whole House, therefore precluding the detailed line-by-line scrutiny that could usefully take place outside the Chamber. In that context, it is difficult to justify carrying the Bill over without greater clarity.
Our position is not about opposing progress, but about ensuring that the legislation we pass is robust and capable of delivering a process that people, in particular veterans and victims, can trust. The carry-over motion risks extending uncertainty without resolving the underlying problem. It is important that my party makes clear that the current Bill is far from adequate. For these reasons, we will oppose the motion.
Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)
The first thing to say is that there was an alternative. There has been a lot of debate recently about whether or not there was an alternative to murder and mayhem: there was an alternative and that is represented by the party of which I am a member. The only honest way to deal with this particular issue is to make it clear that no matter whether the culprit or perpetrator was wearing a uniform or not, the murder of anybody was wrong. That violence brought us no closer to the aims that I hold very dear; it took democratic struggle to get us to the point of peace and opportunity for real change.
I was at an event on Friday in my constituency for the 45th anniversary of the death of a boy called Paul Whitters, who was 15 years old when he was shot in the head by a police officer and died. It was a very moving event. His family were there and his mother had come home from Glasgow—she had had to leave, of course, after all that heartache and pain. There were 186 children killed in our troubles: 80 of them were killed by republicans, 50 by loyalists and 49 by the British Army or the RUC. When we talk about this issue, I want people to think about those children. All I ever hear from certain quarters of this House is about veterans and organisations that are lobbying, and about votes and Back Benchers and all that stuff, but I want people to think about those children.
Julie Livingstone was 14 years old when she was shot in the head and killed in Lenadoon, a month after Paul. Stephen McConomy, whose family I know very well—they are decent, hard-working people—was 11 years old when he was shot and killed by a soldier in 1982. The people who went to try and comfort Stephen and see if he was okay were told that they would be shot as well. The soldier who carried out that murder—and that is what it was—was interviewed for one hour by the RUC. Six months after that, the RUC and the British Army came to Stephen McConomy’s house, and Bishop Daly said at the time that they were in the house longer than the time they took to interview the soldier who killed Stephen. Again, he was 11 years old.
Alan Jack was five months old and in his pram when the IRA set off a bomb in Strabane that killed him. I just want people to think about this. This is not some political game. Those of us who live there do not always agree, as Members might know, but we take this very seriously. This is about trying to give the people who have been left out of this process some truth and some justice if possible. We all know how difficult justice will be, but why are they not entitled to the same access to justice as any of us would expect today? If Members are against trying to sort out this problem, they should ask themselves, “Why not?”
Do not tell me to draw a line under the past. The people who want to move on the most are the victims who have been left behind in our society. They cannot just draw a line under the past when the truth is not out there about what happened to their loved one and the justice that they deserve has not been achieved. The bottom line is that if we are serious about bringing our communities together and reconciling them, whatever our constitutional views, we have to do it on the basis of truth and honesty. We should stop using our victims as political footballs.
Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)
I appreciate the opportunity to take part in this debate on the carry-over motion. We are here this evening as a direct consequence of the failure of this Government to honour their commitment to repeal and replace the legacy Act, to deliver on a manifesto commitment through a two-year Session of Parliament, and to bring with them the victims from Northern Ireland and veterans right throughout the United Kingdom.
This is not a failure of our making. The Secretary of State talks about and laments the fact that the Tories lost the support of all parties in Northern Ireland, but I see little support for the process that the people of Northern Ireland and veterans right across the United Kingdom have had to endure over the last two years. Time after time after time, we heard the Secretary of State talk of safeguards for veterans. Time after time after time, we heard him and the Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, who is sat beside him, indicate that those safeguards would protect veterans in the United Kingdom, yet here we have it—the Secretary of State has had to open up. He has had to tell us, as the Prime Minister confirmed to me, that he is going to bring forward further amendments to do what he said was already done. He has lost the confidence of veterans and victims.
We have talked about and asked the Secretary of State about equivalence. How can there be equivalence between somebody who donned a uniform, did service and made sacrifices legally and lawfully in this country and others who donned a balaclava, took an oath of allegiance to evil and sought to destroy our nation and all those in it? Can there be equivalence? No. Yet today, the Secretary of State says that he will bring forward amendments, and we are asked to support a carry-over motion on a process that has lost the confidence of the people it is meant to bring with it. That is a shame.
Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)
My right hon. Friend is making a very powerful point. Despite the promised raft of amendments, this Bill does not and will never protect those who put on uniform and stood between good and evil—the bloodthirsty terrorists. When the East Tyrone killing machine of the IRA was taken out at Loughgall, it saved countless lives, and it was the same at Coagh. People have had enough of the hounding of those who served, and they have had enough of this Government bending the knee to Dublin. It is time that we stand up for our veterans, not throw them to the wolves.
Gavin Robinson
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Secretary of State dismisses the allegation that this is all about Dublin, but what was the clarion call over the last week? There was a British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference this week, and he knows that he is under pressure from Dublin to show progress, but what have we got from them? Nothing more than hollow words.
The Dublin Government said that they committed to information retrieval. How many requests have they accepted from the Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery? None. They have given no answers to any victims in Northern Ireland. The Irish Government have more secrets locked away in their drawers than lectures that they choose to give to this House. They still have an interstate case against this country. They promise lots; they deliver nothing.
Tonight, we are asked to support a carry-over motion. The amendment paper for this Bill, containing 49 pages of amendments from myself, my hon. Friends and hon. Members throughout this House. Although the Secretary of State was confident about this Bill, he now indicates that he is going to bring forward a substantial number of amendments. He would be better off scrapping the Bill and bringing back a Bill that can command the confidence of victims and veterans.
I listened to the powerful contribution of the Chair of the Northern Ireland Committee, the hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi), who is no longer in her place. She will remember that one of the most startling experiences we had as a Committee was talking to victims who asked us this question: “Is the Secretary of State going to agree to early release for dissident republican prisoners?” On 21 May last year, he said to me that
“there are no such plans”—[Official Report, 21 May 2025; Vol. 767, c. 1011.]
yet that engagement continues. Worse, the Northern Ireland Office has now appointed a lady called Fleur Ravensbergen, who is engaging with the New IRA, who attacked Dunmurry police station just yesterday. Through their interlocutors and the International Red Cross, they are asking the Secretary of State to offer them early release. I say: shame!
Gavin Robinson
I will not.
When we talk of amnesty, I think of Martin Quinn, the brother of Glenn Quinn, and of Mrs Quinn, his mother —an 82-year-old woman who lost her son in January 2020. He was beaten to death by a loyalist paramilitary; he was terminally ill, and he was killed in his own home. An 82-year-old mother is sitting at home today with death threats from loyalists because of Colin Simms and the murder he committed in Carrickfergus. He does not have the support of his community or his comrades. If the Secretary of State can achieve anything tonight, it should be to inform Mrs Quinn that neither Colin Simms nor anyone like him will receive any sort of immunity or early release, for the sake of justice that is yet to be delivered.
Alex Baker (Aldershot) (Lab)
For my community, the home of the British Army, this debate goes to the heart of our history and who we are. In Aldershot, we remember 22 February 1972, when the IRA detonated a bomb targeting the headquarters of the British Army’s 16th Parachute Brigade. It was one of the first attacks by the IRA on mainland Britain, and took the lives of seven innocent victims: Father Gerard Weston, Thelma Bosley, Margaret Grant, Joan Lunn, Jill Mansfield, Sheri Munton and John Hasler. We remember them every year at the memorial that stands in their honour. We also honour the members of our armed forces who served in Operation Banner to keep the peace over many decades; I pay tribute to them for their service, including those watching over our debate tonight from the Gallery. I thank the Aldershot Parachute Regimental Association, the Royal British Legion, and the many individual veterans who I have been engaging with over many months.
I want the voices of our veterans to be heard in this debate. Too many families, including hundreds of armed forces families, lost loved ones in the troubles and are still looking for answers. Too many of our veterans have been left completely without legal protections because of the previous Government’s legislation, which was rejected by the courts. Ultimately, we are here today because of the previous Government’s decision to grant conditional immunity to terrorists like those who murdered British soldiers and civilians in my community. I believe that that decision was wrong, and that these issues need to be addressed. I voted for the Bill on Second Reading so that Parliament could debate how we fix these problems, and I am grateful to both the Ministry of Defence and Northern Ireland Ministers for the discussions they have had with me ever since the legislation was introduced.
However, I want to be clear with my Government that the veterans I have been speaking to over many months still need to be convinced by this legislation. They need further reassurances, and until we see the full package of amendments, I am reserving judgment. We must get this right. No veteran who served with honour, following orders in the most difficult, fast-moving circumstances, should be left fearing repeat investigations, and there should be no equivalence between those who served to protect lives and the terrorists who were only focused on taking lives. I wrote to the Secretary of State in January asking for more to be done on those points, and I am encouraged that the Government are now committed to strengthening protections for our veterans. Right now, our veterans have been left with no protections whatsoever—that needs to change. They need to be protected by law. I hope that much more can be done in the next Session before we reach Third Reading, so that we can give every veteran clarity and confidence.
Let me conclude with a reflection about what we owe our veterans who served in Northern Ireland and beyond. Last year, I travelled 8,000 miles to pay my respects to those from my community who fought in the Falkland Islands. The Falklands are British and remain British thanks to their service. The islanders told me that they owe a debt of gratitude to my community that can never be repaid. We owe a debt to all those who serve our country, now and forever, and I will always have their back.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
Order. I call David Davis, after whom there will be a three-minute time limit.
David Davis (Goole and Pocklington) (Con)
I draw the attention of the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests and, given what I am going to say, to the fact that I was a trustee of the SAS Regimental Association for two decades up until a few years ago.
This Bill was sold to the House and the country on the premise that it would deliver human rights and the rule of law. As the House knows, I pay great attention to human rights and the rule of law—so much so that I defeated my own Government in court on exactly that issue—but what we have here is neither human rights nor justice. It is a perversion of rights and a travesty of justice.
The Government clearly have made promises to Sinn Féin, to IRA families and to would-be rewriters of history, including the Irish Government, putting those ahead of the interests of our soldiers. The recent revelation that the Attorney General, Lord Hermer, pursued cases against our soldiers, despite knowing that the allegations might be false, is indicative, I am afraid, of the attitude of this Government to the rights of our soldiers, as was the Secretary of State’s response to my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison). The attitude is one of undermining our soldiers at home while they fight abroad, and the same will happen under this Bill.
We have already had a rehearsal or a preview of what is to come. This month’s Court of Appeal judgment in the case of Soldier B in the Coagh firefight is a perfect illustration. The shadow Northern Ireland Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Alex Burghart), read out some of the judge’s comments in that case; I will take things a little further. What happened in the Coagh firefight was that the IRA plotted to murder an Ulster Defence Regiment soldier. In the process of doing that, they were hit by an SAS patrol. The IRA terrorists all died, and an inquest found that the SAS actions were all entirely lawful. So what happened? One of the IRA members’ family used taxpayers’ money—legal aid—to force a judicial review. The judge threw that out, stating:
“In this challenge, this Court is being asked to slow the passage of time down, to analyse events in freeze-frame… It is ludicrous to suggest that this court should analyse the events of the day in question in that manner”.
He went on to say:
“I cannot conclude this judgment without expressing my surprise that legal aid funding was made available to mount such a challenge”.
Lincoln Jopp
My right hon. Friend is incredibly well informed on this subject. In his research, has he found any justification for public money being used in that way?
David Davis
No, but it is simply the rule that in Northern Ireland, it is easier to get legal aid for these issues. I can see that there was a reason for that in the past, but it has, in effect, perverted the course of justice in a case where soldiers did nothing more than their duty. That is what is going to happen under this Bill, too, because the case went on to appeal. If anything, the judge struck down that appeal in even more robust terms than the previous judge. A brave, patriotic, honourable soldier was dragged through three courts over several years, in gratuitous actions that were funded by the taxpayer.
I say “brave”, “honourable” and “patriotic”; these are not casual words. I have known Soldier B for 30 years. As well as being a brave soldier, he is a firm believer in the rule of law. He does not believe that there should be exemptions. He believes that there should be proper rule of law, which is not provided by the Bill. Indeed, given his history and his views, I would say that he has a better claim to have defended justice in our country than anyone in the House, and certainly than those on the Government Front Bench. What happened in that case is just a rehearsal for what will come if the Bill goes through. If it is passed, hundreds more—and I mean hundreds—will follow.
This Bill puts the interests of the Irish Government, Sinn Féin and IRA apologists above those of our veterans, and would put rewriting history ahead of providing proper justice. It is unpatriotic, disingenuous and dishonourable. It satisfies no one. It solves nothing. Everything it touches, it makes worse. I note that the Minister for the Armed Forces is not here for the vote, and I entirely understand why: he wants to avoid association with this disgraceful legislation. If he cannot vote for it, neither should we. We should reject this disgraceful Bill out of hand.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
I call Andy McDonald, who has a three-minute speaking time limit.
Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough and Thornaby East) (Lab)
The Bill must be carried over. We need to replace the unlawful 2023 Act, and we must get this right. This is a test of whether the House is serious about addressing legacy in Northern Ireland. The Good Friday agreement commits us to reconciliation based on self-determination, consent and rights. That must work for victims, veterans and civilians alike, and command confidence because it is rooted in human rights and the rule of law. The previous Act was found to be incompatible with the UK’s obligations under the European convention on human rights, particularly the duty to properly investigate serious crimes. That is why the Government were right to bring forward a remedial order and introduce legislation to replace it. There is no justification for sweeping immunity measures that risk undermining both justice and reconciliation. Victims, including those who served in our armed forces, deserve more than slogans; they deserve answers, truth, and processes that they can trust.
We should listen carefully to Bernard Duhaime, the UN special rapporteur, who met the Secretary of State and briefed Members last week. He recognised that the September 2025 joint framework with the Irish Government provides a genuine multilateral foundation for a comprehensive legacy mechanism, but he also issued clear warnings: that the governance of any legacy commission must preclude interference by those whose conduct may be under investigation; that a reparations mechanism should be considered, to give victims an accessible route to remedy; and that claims of disproportionate targeting of veterans are simply not supported by the evidence. Protecting individuals from poor-quality investigations is one thing; shielding anyone from accountability where evidence exists is quite another, and the Bill must not permit that outcome. When the Secretary of State speaks of safeguarding Operation Banner veterans, he must take care not to alienate the families who are still seeking justice in cases involving the actions of British forces.
So I say again that opposing the carry-over motion would be irresponsible, and would undermine the pursuit of justice and reconciliation. However, confidence also depends on our getting the legislation right, and excessive delay or poorly judged amendments risk undermining that confidence too. We look forward to constructive engagement in the weeks and months ahead, because getting this wrong would be not just a legislative failure, but a moral one.
Alex Easton (North Down) (Ind)
The motion may be dressed up as a matter of procedural convenience, but it is no such thing. It goes to the very heart of how this Parliament chooses to deal with the legacy of conflict, with the rights of victims and survivors, and with our fidelity to both our own constitutional traditions and our binding international obligations. The Bill, in its present form, fails the test. It does not command the confidence of victims. It does not command the confidence of the wider community in Northern Ireland, or indeed of our own brave veterans. To agree to its carry-over would therefore be more than a tidying-up exercise. It would be a conscious, deliberate decision by the House to prolong the life of a measure that is at best deeply contested, and at worst fundamentally misconceived.
We should be honest with ourselves: the Bill as drafted is not the solution that victims deserve, and it is not the solution that veterans deserve either. The Secretary of State has mentioned that amendments will be tabled to give better protection for veterans, but we do not even know what they are, so how can we pass tonight’s motion?
Dr Murrison
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the person who is likely to draft those amendments is the Advocate General for Northern Ireland, who is one and the same Lord Hermer? What confidence does the hon. Gentleman think the armed forces community can have that this Bill will be any better?
Alex Easton
I thank the right hon. Member for his comments, and I totally agree. There will not be a lot of support for this Bill among the armed forces.
These are not abstract or academic concerns; they go to the essence of what it means to live under the rule of law. The Bill fails to grapple in any credible way with the status of the so-called on-the-run letters of comfort, and with the plain injustice that flows from the position in which those who fled justice were handed such letters while veterans of Operation Banner have been handed only letters of continued investigation and the threat of prosecution. That is morally wrong, and this Bill does nothing to rectify it. In that context, the carry-over motion assumes genuine constitutional significance.
Carry-over is an exceptional procedure; it is not a routine device to be used to spare a struggling Bill from the consequences of its lack of support. The Government are not merely asking us to keep an administrative option open; they are asking us to confer an extended lease of life on a legislative scheme that has failed to win the confidence of those whose confidence is indispensable. The proposals must include real safeguards for veterans—men and women who are entitled to see concrete protections on the face of the statute, rather than being fobbed off with warm words and vague assurances of future safeguards. Those proposals must ensure that the oversight mechanisms, and any victim and survivor panels, are constituted in a way that does not invite those who murdered and maimed to sit in judgment or presume to adjudicate the human rights of the innocent. That would be an affront to natural justice and basic decency. The proposals must also exclude political parties that support terrorism—past, present or future.
To vote for a carry-over tonight is not to remain neutral or to keep all options open; it is to keep on political life support a scheme that many veterans, victims and survivors feel is being imposed on them. Many veterans regard the scheme with deep and understandable scepticism, and many people across Northern Ireland do not support it. Accordingly, I am unable to support the motion for carry-over, and I urge this House to do the right thing and reject it.
Peter Swallow (Bracknell) (Lab)
As a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, I thank the Secretary of State for appearing in front of our Committee on two occasions—he has truly embraced scrutiny. The JCHR is currently carrying out legislative scrutiny of the Bill, and the remarks I offer tonight are informed by the evidence that we have received, although we are still working through that process.
As we all recognise, there is no more complex and sensitive a legacy than that of the troubles, which is why it is so tragic that the previous Government’s legacy Act failed so greatly. It failed because it could not command cross-community support, because it was rejected as unlawful by the British courts and, of course, because it introduced immunity, including for terrorists—a point made most strongly tonight by the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Alex Burghart). We owe it to the victims of the troubles to do better, and as my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Alex Baker) pointed out, that includes the families of service personnel and the police.
On veterans and those who served, I note that genuine concerns have been raised. As the MP for Sandhurst, I know how important this issue is for all those who put on a uniform and bravely put themselves forward to defend our country. I thank the Secretary of State for listening to those concerns and for committing to bring forth amendments. Although all Members of this House will scrutinise those amendments closely when they are brought forward, I am grateful for that commitment. It is important that we carry over the Bill, so that all Members can scrutinise it.
This Bill is our opportunity to finally begin to address the legacy of the troubles. I feel very strongly that all of us must take that duty seriously and carry it out with all due seriousness.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con)
In the limited time I have, I say to the Secretary of State that this Bill was bad, and it is now a mess. He comes in front of the House to ask for a carry-over when he knows that carry-over motions are only ever to be used for Bills that are pretty well set, but have run out of time to progress. Such motions are not for highly contentious legislation that is about to be changed, possibly beyond recognition from what has gone before. He is now apparently addressing many of the issues, but we are not allowed to know, because they are a secret until next time, when we will come back to carry on with a massively changed Bill. It is bad procedure, and it is bad government. I say to the right hon. Gentleman, for whom I have a lot of time—he knows that—that this is just a bad route to take.
The problem that the Government have had from the beginning is that they have been tied up with trying to satisfy Sinn Féin and the hand of Ireland. I worry desperately about the arrangements. As the right hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) said, where are the promises on delivery from Ireland? For all these years, there has been all the stuff that they know about who did what, when they did it and how it was done. All that has been kept behind closed doors for so long, and the Irish Government could have dealt with it earlier. Instead, there are people who do not want this to be open and we are now singing to their tune. That is what really bothers me.
We are now being asked to take a pitch in the dark. Having denied all the way through the Bill’s passage that veterans would be pursued vexatiously through the courts and having said that there were controls in place, the Government have apparently finally realised that that was not the case. All of a sudden, the position has changed.
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
On the question of the failure of the Government of the Republic, the reality is that they have an outstanding interstate case against us.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith
It is astonishing. My right hon. Friend is exactly right. I served early on in Northern Ireland, and I lost a very good friend—I apologise for repeating his name—in Robert Nairac. We have never got to the bottom of what happened to him.
I thought that the speech from the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) was incredibly interesting. It is very difficult to pursue truth, which is why I supported the previous legislation. That was not because I thought it was a great Bill, but because I wanted some truth to come out. I do not think the vexatious pursuit of veterans will ever produce the truth that he rightly seeks. There is a better way, and it is not this Bill.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith
I will, but briefly, because I do not get any extra time.
Colum Eastwood
I am grateful to the right hon. Member. I understand his point, and a point was made earlier about the commission for the retrieval of remains. Basically, IRA members who were involved in the disappearance of people were given immunity within the confines of giving information. The bottom line is that it did not work. Jean McConville was found by a passer-by. Columba McVeigh has still not been found and others have not been found. The IRA did not give the information, even once it was given immunity. Immunity does not work, and it has been proven not to work.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith
We will not altogether agree about this issue. We can debate what actually happened, but we will never know, because the Government refused to pursue this matter through the courts. South Africa was a good example of how it could be done. I went out to advise in South Africa at the time, and I genuinely believe that the truth and reconciliation committee got to the bottom of quite a lot of what happened in South Africa and allowed some mending of fences. We will no doubt debate that issue further. I have high respect for the hon. Gentleman, and I understand his position.
In conclusion, we are being asked to vote blind on a Bill that we knew was damaged before. All our protestations about the vexatious pursuit of veterans were denied, as were all the issues that the right hon. Member for Belfast East has raised throughout the whole of this debate. The legislation was rather arrogantly pushed through, and the Government said, “No, you don’t know what you’re talking about. The legislation is perfectly okay.” At the last moment, when they have failed to get the Bill through, they have produced this idea that somehow there are amazing new amendments that will protect veterans going forward. Why should veterans, who have been vexatiously pursued endlessly for no particular reason, other than because they were veterans who served in Northern Ireland, now say, “Oh, that’s okay; it’d be a good idea to see what comes next time around, because they were so honest this time around.”? The Government have failed to be honest about this from start to finish.
The Armed Forces Minister is not here for a reason—because he knows very well that he does not want to be sitting on the Front Bench when the Bill gets voted through to the future. [Interruption.] I say to all colleagues, it is time to call time on this piece of bad legislation and kick it into the gutter.
Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
A teacher in my constituency wrote to me today with concerns about the Bill, pointing out that some MPs will be voting tonight who were born after the Good Friday/Belfast agreement. We need to let that settle for just a moment. The Secretary of State is right to say that this is our last opportunity to get legacy issues right.
The fundamental reality is that life during the troubles exposed ordinary people to fear and danger that few outside Northern Ireland could ever comprehend. Those who lived and worked through that period—in particular those charged with protecting the young people in our communities—lived under constant threat and uncertainty. That burden deserves recognition and respect. I think we all agree about that in this House. Those years placed extraordinary pressures on everybody involved. It would be profoundly wrong of this House to disregard the risks faced by members of the armed forces, the police, the emergency services and civilians during that time, including the teacher who wrote to me today to say how difficult the situation was.
I was reminded at my St George’s day parish quiz on Saturday night at church that the RUC is one of only three organisations that collectively received the George Cross. May I take this opportunity to commend Councillor Tommy Judge, who has been the member for Sharston in my constituency for 25 years? He was on the 1974 M62 bus. He sat in a different seat that day, when 12 of his colleagues died and 38 were injured—there but for the grace of God. I thank him for his service in our armed forces, and I thank him for his municipal service in Manchester for the past quarter of a century.
This is our last chance for those who remember. The purpose of the Bill, as I see it, is not to deny the experience of those who served the state in good faith. On the contrary, it reflects a recognition that for decades the legacy of the past has not been addressed properly or lawfully. Families from all communities have been left without answers, and confidence in existing processes has gone. The shadow Secretary of State said “post hoc”. “Post hoc ergo propter hoc” is how the phrase continues—correlation does not equate to causation.
I am acutely conscious of the human dimension of this, having grown up as a Mancunian Irish Catholic and seen the bombs through the ’70, ’80s and ’90s, and, because we had the wrong accents, having seen how our family was treated. But there was no equivalence with those suffered in Northern Ireland. That is why this legislation matters and why Parliament must approach it with seriousness and respect for all those lives shaped by the troubles.
Robert Jenrick (Newark) (Reform)
The Bill is a betrayal of our veterans. It is a betrayal of the men who put on a British uniform and served their country, risking their lives to protect people of all communities in Northern Ireland during the period of the troubles—men like David Griffin, who I had the privilege to meet: an 84-year-old Royal Marine veteran who lives out his life at Royal Hospital Chelsea. He is a man who, half a lifetime ago in 1972, in a split-second decision when he was ambushed by terrorists, made a call. That call should not haunt him in the last years of his life. He should not have to wake up every morning worried that a letter will drop through his letterbox telling him that he is going to be prosecuted.
Old men like David Griffin have been hounded for far too long. That is the reason why—belated, yes, but belatedly it did happen—the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023 provided a degree of immunity to those brave men. This Bill rips that up. It will be open season for men like David Griffin. Men like David Griffin deserve better than this Bill.
Men who are serving this country now do so as well, because this is not just about the past—it is about the present and future, too. What signal does the Bill send to those who sign up to serve our country? That half a lifetime from now, new laws may come in, and they will be hounded through the courts, living out the last days of their lives worried about a knock on the door or a letter through the post? No. That is wrong. That is not the country that I want to live in.
When I hold this Bill up to the light, I see all over it the fingerprints of Lord Hermer—a man who frankly hates this country. Let us be honest with ourselves. I never thought I would see the day that Gerry Adams’s lawyer was sitting around the Cabinet table of the United Kingdom, in the very room that the IRA tried to blow up when I was a child.
The men who serve our country deserve better than this Bill, better than Lord Hermer and better than this Government. I will be voting against the Bill. I hope it dies tonight.
Hilary Benn
I will do my best to respond to as many of the points that have been raised in the debate as possible. I listened very carefully to the speech from the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Alex Burghart), but I am sorry to say that he did not address the central problem, which is that the previous Government’s legislation failed and needs to be replaced. He also appeared to suggest that he knows that victims and survivors will find out nothing from the very process that that legislation put in place, which I am keeping in the form of the legacy commission—[Interruption.] Well, that is what he said. Was the hon. Gentleman arguing that judicial review should be removed from legacy cases? Is that his argument? If that is his argument, it would not have been available to challenge the Clonoe inquest—a challenge that the Government are supporting.
The hon. Member for Wimbledon (Mr Kohler) shares the Government’s opposition to immunity. I must confess that I was disappointed by his party’s stance on the Bill, because if there is no Bill, we cannot get it right.
My hon. Friend the Member for Southend East and Rochford (Mr Alaba)—himself a distinguished veteran—made a powerful appeal for reason in order to try to get this right.
The hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) was listened to in absolute silence, rightly, as he described a number of the children who were killed during the troubles. That silence was in marked contrast to some of what we heard earlier.
Notwithstanding what the right hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) said in most of his speech, I welcome the fact that at the end he made it clear that he is opposed to giving terrorists immunity, and that his party, which he leads, has always been clear that it did not support the immunity provisions in the previous Government’s legacy Act, which is indeed this Government’s policy.
Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Stamford) (Con)
The Secretary of State suggested in his speech that no comfort letters were ever issued by Tony Blair, but a court case collapsed specifically because of one of them, so could he clarify that? More specifically, the right hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) said that a member of staff hired by the Northern Ireland Office is having meetings about the early release of IRA dissidents. That worries the House intensely. Will the Secretary of State confirm that no such requests have been made by the Northern Ireland Office, or, if any such requests have been made, that they have been immediately denied very clearly, both in writing and verbally?
Hilary Benn
It is a matter of public record that there has been no early release of any prisoners at all, and there have been no negotiations. I have said it in the House before, and I will say it again: there have been no negotiations with dissident terrorists at all. I did not say that no letters of comfort were issued; what I said to the House was that the letters of comfort did not grant immunity from prosecution. [Interruption.] The right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois) refers from a seated position to Mr Downey. As the right hon. Gentleman will be aware, it is a matter of public record that he is currently facing prosecution for the murder of two individuals.
My hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Alex Baker) gave us a moving reminder of those whose lives have been lost. My hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Mike Kane) called for seriousness and respect in this debate. I say to the right hon. Member for Newark (Robert Jenrick) that he is wrong. This Bill does not rip up immunity.
Hilary Benn
It is no good him shaking his head. The provision was never commenced by the last Government, and it has been found to be incompatible with our legal obligations. In conclusion, we need to deal with this, and I have heard lots of arguments as to why—
Business of the House
Public Office (Accountability) Bill (Carry-over)
Monday 27th April 2026
(3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Public Office (Accountability) Bill 2024-26 View all Public Office (Accountability) Bill 2024-26 Debates Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Notices of Amendments as at 21 April 2026 - large print - (21 Apr 2026)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Alex Davies-Jones)
I beg to move,
That if, at the conclusion of this Session of Parliament, proceedings on the Public Office (Accountability) Bill have not been completed, they shall be resumed in the next Session.
This motion is purely procedural, to allow the Bill to be carried over to the next Session and for the remaining stages to take place following the King’s Speech. The Government remain absolutely committed to delivering this Bill. As the House will be aware, it was introduced into this place on 16 September 2025, with its Commons Committee stage taking place in November and December last year. I want to thank again all the Bill Committee members from across the House for their work on this fundamentally important Bill. This motion will allow the Commons remaining stages to take place at the start of the next Session before the Bill moves on to the other place.
The Bill is a product of the decades of campaigning from families affected by state-related deaths and tragedies. We have heard from a range of campaigns, from families and from those affected, on the desperate need for change to ensure that when things go wrong, public authorities will act with candour and transparency, and in the public interest.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the hon. Lady for bringing this forward. There is much in the Bill to be recognised and welcomed, but does she agree that this is not just about the Hillsborough tragedy, which was awful, but about my constituents in Strangford, who, when they seek the truth from public bodies, are met with a wall of silence or, worse, a culture of circling the wagons? Does she further agree that the legal duty of candour is not just about paperwork and that it must be about restoring the fundamental bond of trust between the Government and those who govern?
Alex Davies-Jones
I could not agree more with the hon. Gentleman. He is fundamentally correct that the Bill is about much more than just the duty of candour. This is about rebuilding the trust between the public and the state. It is about ensuring that there is accountability, transparency, openness and parity, and that the state remembers who it is that we are meant to serve. This is not just about the Hillsborough law, although this legislation will hopefully bear that name; it is about all those campaigns that have suffered as a result of state cover-ups and tragedies. It is really important that we recognise all those campaigning under the umbrella of the Hillsborough Law Now campaign.
At inquiries, inquests and investigations, public authorities and officials will be put under powerful obligations to help investigations to find the truth. They will all be legally required to provide information and evidence with candour, proactively and without favour to any of their own positions. Public servants will also be placed under a new professional duty of candour, which will be set out in each organisation’s mandatory code of ethics. This will ensure that individuals act with integrity and honesty at all times in their day-to-day work. The families made it clear to us that when it becomes apparent that someone has sought to evade accountability or prevent the truth from being uncovered—whether through dishonesty and deliberately withholding information, or through the perpetuation of false narratives—there must be clear accountability and appropriate sanctions.
The Bill will provide this through a new criminal offence of breaching the duty of candour and a new criminal offence of misleading the public. It will also provide non-means-tested legal aid for bereaved families at inquests where a public authority is an interested person, and place a duty on all public authorities to ensure that their use of lawyers is proportionate. It represents an important milestone in rebalancing the system, ensuring that the bereaved, grieving families are supported to participate in the inquest process where the state is represented, introducing the parity of arms that we have heard so much about. It also helps to ensure proper standards of conduct by public authorities at an inquest or inquiry.
Drawing on experiences shared with us by the families, the Bill will introduce measures placing a duty on all public authorities, and those that represent them, to act in line with statutory guidance and to support families’ participation in the process. Where there are concerns regarding the conduct of public authorities or their legal teams, the Bill grants the power to the coroner or the inquiry chair to raise those concerns with the appropriate senior individual level of public authority.
The Bill also abolishes the current common law offences of misconduct in public office following the Law Commission recommendations in its 2020 report. In its place will be two new statutory offences: the breach of duty to prevent death or serious injury, and seriously improper acts. By putting these offences on the statute book, we are making it clear what types of behaviour are covered by this offence and who exactly it applies to.
This is a landmark Bill. It will transform the way that public authorities and officials interact with official investigations and will act as a catalyst for the radical change in culture across the public sector that we so desperately need. It will deliver the largest expansion of civil legal aid in a generation and a move away from that culture of cover up and distrust in the state.
The Bill was due to return to the Commons for remaining stages in January. However, as many in this House will be aware, concerns were raised on how the duty of candour and assistance would apply to the intelligence and security services. The Government brought forward several amendments to strengthen the Bill in this area. However, it became clear from our conversations with families and stakeholders that they had concerns about how the accompanying safeguards we proposed might work in practice. We have always been clear that this is a Bill for and by the families, and where they have concerns, we will always listen.
Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)
Can the Minister give hope tonight through this Bill to the families of those who lost loved ones on 2 June 1994 on the Mull of Kintyre? Currently, documents pertaining to the tragedy of the Chinook disaster are under lock and key for 100 years. Indeed, the documents and evidence that are currently available should give this House serious concern as to what went on before that tragedy. Can she give hope today?
Alex Davies-Jones
I thank the hon. Lady for raising the issue regarding the Chinook disaster. I recently had the privilege of meeting the bereaved families of the Chinook disaster, and I want to pay tribute to them and their tenacious campaigning to uncover the truth of what happened to their loved ones. I am deeply pleased that the Prime Minister agreed to meet those families last week at Prime Minister’s questions, and we look forward to working with them and all the other campaigners as the Bill progresses through the House to ensure that anyone affected by a state cover-up or a tragedy where the state is represented should have the truth available to them. That is a fundamental feature of this Bill and one we wholeheartedly believe in.
It is because of those families and their lived experience that the Government took the decision to delay the Bill to allow more time to get it right—to address the issues that were raised directly with us by the families while not compromising our ability to protect national security and safeguard the national interest. In the past few months, we have been working intensively with the security services, Hillsborough Law Now and the Intelligence and Security Committee to find a way forward on this issue. But that has meant, sadly, that there was not sufficient time to complete the Bill’s passage in this Session. The Government have therefore tabled this motion to allow the Bill to continue parliamentary passage in the next Session.
I am aware that this Bill is of high interest and importance to many Members of this House, the public and, indeed, members of the other place, and many are very eager to see this Bill on the statute books. I want to stress that I share that eagerness. I want to make it clear that the Government remain resolutely committed to delivering this vital legislation. We are determined to get this right. We are continuing to work closely with campaigners and families, and if this motion is agreed this evening, we will bring the Bill back to complete Commons remaining stages, with new Government amendments, at the start of the next Session.
Dr Kieran Mullan (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)
Let me say at the outset that the Opposition continue to support the broad aims of the Bill, as we have done throughout its passage. We recognise the importance of candour, transparency and accountability in public life and recognise the long and determined work of those campaigners, including the Hillsborough families and others who have fought for many years to ensure that where public bodies fail, evade, conceal or mislead, there are proper consequences. That principle remains an important one, and it is not a partisan principle. It is not owned by any one party or Government; it is a basic requirement of good government and of public confidence in the institutions of the state.
As has been recognised throughout the passage of the Bill, legislation on its own cannot guarantee the cultural change that is needed. We have already introduced duties of candour in parts of the public sector—for example, the NHS—and have taken steps in recent years in policing to improve accountability, as well as creating the office of the independent public advocate, but questions remain about whether the system works as it should when it really matters. The lesson from Hillsborough, the infected blood scandal, the Post Office scandal and other serious institutional failures is that, yes, the legal framework matters, but so do culture and practice. For that reason, we want the Bill to progress and the areas of consensus to move forward, so we do not intend to oppose this carry-over motion. We have consistently taken part in proceedings in that matter.
What I say next is not a criticism of the approach of campaigners, or indeed of the many Labour MPs who have been sincere and consistent in their campaigning on this issue over many years, including the hon. Members for Liverpool West Derby (Ian Byrne) and for Liverpool Garston (Maria Eagle). The Government have utterly mishandled this legislation from start to finish, which is why we are here today, six months on from Second Reading, with a Bill pulled at the last minute—and with broken promises. I do not expect Labour Members to relish joining me in that criticism.
The Minister will, I am sure, say that the Government have at least brought a Bill forward, as if that were a blank cheque for the manner in which these proceedings have been conducted. I have some sympathy for her—she has been put into difficult situations—but trust has been damaged on all sides. Even though this Bill is about trust, candour and whether the public can believe what they are told by those who exercise power on their behalf, the process by which the Government have pursued the Bill has too often fallen short of the standards that Ministers say they want to impose on others through this legislation.
The Prime Minister announced the Bill last September at party conference, and gave the clear impression that families and campaigners were content with the detail on the approach being taken. The House should remember that it had been widely reported several months earlier that a draft Bill had been rejected by campaigners. What else could we have reasonably assumed other than that those concerns had been addressed? It has since become crystal clear that campaigners were in fact not satisfied with the draft proposals, and that their support was conditional—as I understand it, they made that clear to the Government—but the Prime Minister wanted his big announcement and proceeded anyway.
The Hillsborough Law Now campaign has explained its view: the delays since January have been caused not by the families or campaigners, but by disagreements within Government and by objections from the Cabinet Office, the security services and others. All that should surely have been dealt with prior to the drafting, publication and big announcement of the Bill, and the fact that it was not is why we are debating this carry-over motion. On more than one occasion, we were presented with a version of the Bill that the Government told us was the only possible approach to the inclusion of the intelligence services—until it was not. We were told that the balance had been struck, but then the Bill was withdrawn and there were reports of further changes.
The issues relating to the security services could not be more serious. The Government cannot have it both ways; they cannot tell the House at one stage that the Bill they have published is the only responsible approach to the inclusion of the security services—and marshal the leaders of the security services to say the same thing—before moving away from that position without properly explaining what has changed, why, and whether the earlier assurances given to Members were sound.
The Opposition have always accepted that national security raises real and serious issues; there will be material that cannot be handled in the same way as ordinary departmental papers, as well as operations, sources, methods and relationships with allies that require safeguards. Any responsible Government must take that seriously. It was a Conservative Member—my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Ben Obese-Jecty)—who asked how those provisions might apply to elements of the armed force, and those elements were then included in the Bill very late in the day. That is another issue that should have been properly thought through before the Government reached the point of withdrawing the Bill in January, which has led us to this carry-over motion.
This is part of a broader pattern. We have seen a lack of candour from the Lord Chancellor when he has been asked about prisoner release, and tomorrow we will debate the candour and honesty of the Prime Minister. I have absolutely zero faith in this Government—zero. The Bill is literally about candour in public office, but this process has left campaigners, Members and the public unclear about the Government’s position from one month to the next.
The Government should not be surprised, then, that we will not simply accept assurances about the Bill at face value. Assurances are not enough; the test will be the text of the Bill, whether Ministers can explain clearly and consistently how the Bill will operate in relation to our security and other services, and whether the Government can show that they have balanced transparency, accountability and national security in a workable, principled and robust way.
I hugely respect the Hillsborough Law Now families and campaigners, but I am not afraid to say that they may well not be entirely satisfied by this law. A responsible Government must sometimes say that to campaigners, but this incredibly weak Prime Minister is not able to do so. The families and campaigners who have fought for this legislation deserve better than drift, confusion and mixed messages; they deserve frankness and candour. If the Government are not willing to do everything that the campaigners ask, they should just tell them so and get on with it. The public deserve legislation that is not merely well intentioned but clear, workable and effective.
As I have explained, we will not oppose the carry-over motion, but we will scrutinise what comes next with the seriousness that the subject demands and the scepticism that the Government’s handling of the Bill has regrettably earned.
Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Bromborough) (Lab)
I start by thanking the Minister for her hard work and dedication in trying to get this Bill right. She has worked tirelessly to ensure that the voices of the campaigners have been heard and are reflected in the final provisions, and I know that she will continue to do so when the Bill returns in the next parliamentary Session.
It is important that we are debating this motion today. We certainly did not want to find ourselves three months down the road with no discernible signs of resolution after Report stage was pulled at very short notice. But this motion is necessary to deliver on the promise. This Bill is too important to fail—too important for the families and too important for the necessary rewiring of the state. We could not have let that happen, so I am glad that we will agree this carry-over motion today. The Bill will, after all, deliver on one of the most radical commitments in our manifesto, but, most importantly, it is a promise that we have made to the Hillsborough families—a promise that needs to be honoured—and they have shown remarkable courage, dedication and tenacity to campaign for justice for their loved ones. It has taken decades to get to this point, and it must be beyond frustrating for the families to be so near yet so far from resolution.
The final details are crucial, and it is very important that we get them right so that we can deliver a law that passes the critical test: that victims are never again wrongly blamed by the state for their deaths; that never again ordinary people have to fight tooth and nail against the seemingly endless resources of the state just to get to the truth; and that we never allow public bodies to use the power of the state to obfuscate and lie in order to protect their own reputations.
Getting that balance right is absolutely critical to the Bill’s success, and it does meet most of the aims that have been set out, so it is disappointing that there are still a couple of key points of difference between campaigners and various parts of Government on matters, as we have heard, related to security services disclosures. I have been proud to support amendments tabled by my hon. Friends here today that provide what I hoped was a workable solution. I was also concerned to hear in a recent message from campaigners that officials are now attempting to reopen issues that they had thought had been resolved. So let us be clear: this House will not accept any backsliding on issues that we have already agreed and voted on.
The Bill’s progression does at times feel glacial, and although we all agree it was right for the Government to go away and strengthen the Bill and ensure that they get it right, rather than pass something that did not have the families’ support, we can all see how each and every day is testing for them. I have to say that is not helped by regular briefings to the press about the reason for the delay being this person or that person, or this Department or that Department. The Bill is too important for Westminster gossip and games.
I would therefore welcome any assurances that the Minister can give today on timescales. I would be grateful if she could indicate whether, as I hope, we can see the Report stage within a matter of weeks of the state opening of Parliament next month, because if we are not careful, we will drag on to the summer recess, and before we know it another six months will have passed. I know that she has never stopped trying to get this Bill over the line, and she has our support to try and find workable solutions, but we really do have to find a way forward sooner rather than later.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)
I call the Liberal Democrats spokesperson.
Jess Brown-Fuller (Chichester) (LD)
First, I want to set out that the Liberal Democrats are supportive of the Hillsborough law. We have only ever sought to strengthen the legislation, not to undermine it, and we will be supporting the carry-over motion this evening. But it is frustrating for everyone involved that we have reached this stage of having to carry over the Bill, because this is landmark legislation that will transform the relationship between public bodies and the victims of horrendous tragedies, and, as the Minister said, we hope it will restore some of trust in the state among people across the UK that they will not be the victims of cover-ups after tragedies.
A duty of candour provides a basic but essential level of transparency and fairness, and a duty for public officials to act with openness when dealing with public investigations—vital steps that are supported by the Liberal Democrats and Members from across the House. I commend in particular the hon. Member for Liverpool West Derby (Ian Byrne), who has been campaigning for years, as well as other hon. Members in the Chamber this evening. This Government and this Prime Minister rightly committed to the full implementation of the legislation in the Labour manifesto, yet we find ourselves here today because broken promises, quiet media briefings and a lack of transparency have totally mired the process and the progress of the Bill.
Report and Third Reading were scheduled for 19 January, but the unacceptable carve-out for the security services brought that process to a halt. It is essential that the legislation includes clear, binding provisions to ensure that the security services are subject to the duty of candour. That is what the campaigners from Hillsborough Law Now expect, it is what the families of the many victims whose lives have been upended by tragedies and scandals expect, and it is what the Government promised.
The campaigners and Liberal Democrat Members will not tolerate or accept backsliding, but we are still in the dark. Yes, there have been media reports of a compromise with the security services, but we are yet to see either those amendments on the amendment paper or whether they are acceptable to the campaigners who have fought so tirelessly for the legislation. The reports also contained details of additional inclusions within the scope of the Bill, including counter-terrorism police, the National Crime Agency and national intelligence. Again, this House has yet to debate the merits of those proposed inclusions, and has only heard about them in the media.
Any outcome must be acceptable to the families. They have worked tirelessly, for too long, to see a half measure come to fruition. It is clear that the Government will not proceed without them onside anyway, so I encourage the Government, who I know are as keen to get this over the line as any of us, to come to a swift resolution. As the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Bromborough (Justin Madders) said, I hope that the legislation returns to the House shortly after the King’s Speech, because we will be in the summer recess before we know it, then it will be the conference recess. The families have waited far too long for the legislation. They cannot afford to be approaching another Christmas without seeing the Bill finally enacted. We all owe it to all the countless victims of Hillsborough, the Post Office scandal, infected blood, Grenfell, nuclear weapons testing, pelvic mesh, LGBT veterans and the many other scandals to finally get this done.
Anneliese Midgley (Knowsley) (Lab)
Ten years ago yesterday, the Hillsborough inquest jury delivered its historic verdict, concluding that 96 Liverpool fans who died at Hillsborough in 1989 were unlawfully killed. In the years since, the 96 have become 97. The families continue to campaign with dignity and determination for the Hillsborough law, to ensure a statutory duty of candour for public officials and to prevent such injustices from ever happening again. I am really disappointed that 10 years from that verdict and 580 days since the Prime Minister committed at our party conference to bring forward this legislation, it has yet to be delivered for the families and for my city.
I have been in touch with Margaret Aspinall and Charlotte Hennessy, who had loved ones who went to the match that day and did not come home. Their names are James Aspinall and Jimmy Hennessy. There are some words that they would like me to say and put on the record on their behalf today, if I may, Madam Deputy Speaker.
“We would like to acknowledge the good work and progress that was initially made in relation to the Bill and welcome the roll over but we would also like to remind everyone of who this Bill is for—The Public. This is not about Hillsborough families, it is not about egos, this is about protecting others from the corrupt.
Lately it has felt like ‘Families first’ has meant ‘Families last’. We understand that there may be rare and exceptional circumstances, where immediate disclosure could create risks to ‘National security’ and we do not oppose sensible safeguards where they are truly necessary but so often that very same confidential information is leaked straight to the press by someone in government before families can even review it. That is not the actions of putting families first. It is unspeakably cruel, and unnecessary.
We were promised inclusion within this process and we would like a guarantee that the leaks to the media will stop, the delays will stop and everyone involved will refocus and remember that this is a legacy for 97 innocent victims as well as future generations and a manifesto pledge made by the prime minister.
Margaret Aspinall & Charlotte Hennessy.”
I plead with the Government: let their words be heard, and followed to the letter. The Prime Minister promised the families that the Bill would be delivered in full, and that promise needs to be fulfilled. Justice for the 97, and for all other victims of state cover-ups!
I thank the Minister with responsibility for victims for her tenacity and passion for seeing this Bill through and getting it right. I honestly love working with her, and I have complete confidence that she will deliver this. I welcome the fact that the Bill is being protected and carried over, but let us proceed with urgency, care and a shared determination to get this done in collaboration with and with respect for the families.
Let me end by again quoting Margaret Aspinall. When I last saw her, she said to me:
“The truth costs nothing, lies cost millions and destroy lives.”
Ian Byrne (Liverpool West Derby) (Lab)
As I set out in my question to the Leader of the House on Thursday, I welcome the Government tabling this carry-over motion for the Hillsborough law, but in truth it should never have come to this. It is wrong and difficult to accept that we find ourselves here today with no Hillsborough legislation in effect. Responsibility for this delay rests solely with a Government who, at times, have refused to push past the vested interests that were always going to oppose transparency and accountability. It was never in doubt that we would face resistance—the Minister and I have discussed that before—but political courage and determination are essential in seeking to change a culture of cover-ups that has damaged our country and undermined trust in our institutions.
Jim Shannon
It would be remiss of this House not to put on record our thanks to the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Liverpool Wavertree (Paula Barker) for all their hard work to make this happen, and for their endurance, perseverance, determination, courage and commitment. We are all greatly moved by the efforts they have made over the years, and because of them, the Minister and this Government have brought forward a legislative change, with this carry-over motion tonight. This great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is better off for their collective efforts.
Ian Byrne
I thank the hon. Gentleman for those kind words.
The Minister and I both stood for election in 2024 on a clear manifesto commitment to deliver the Hillsborough law in full. The Prime Minister promised on multiple occasions that passing the Hillsborough law would be among the first acts of this Government, yet two anniversaries of Hillsborough and an entire parliamentary Session have passed without it being delivered. That is simply not good enough. I hear that certain Ministers oppose this legislation due to pressure from the security services and the Ministry of Defence, and that is precisely why leadership is required. The buck stops with the Prime Minister. We must push through disagreement and ensure that this Bill is delivered in its entirety.
Every delay causes real and profound distress to bereaved families, survivors and campaigners—people who have spent decades fighting for truth, justice and accountability against a state that failed them and sought to cover up those failures. Crucially, as we have always said, this law is vital for the many people who do not yet know that they will one day need it, so it is essential that this carry-over motion is not merely a procedural device to keep this Bill alive, but a clear signal of the Government’s intention to implement the Hillsborough law in full at the earliest opportunity, as has been promised. This motion must now be matched with urgency and action.
The truth is that if the political will existed, this could be resolved in a single day by the Government adopting my amendments, which would restore the Bill to the full Hillsborough law that was promised. I commend every single person who has fought for this legislation. It is my job in this place to ensure that the Government deliver a Hillsborough law worthy of the name. It is rightly described as a legacy for many, but more than that, if we get this Bill right, it will ensure that state cover-ups are far harder to carry out in future. That would be a legacy of real and lasting value to this country, for future generations, and for those whom we will never forget.
A duty of candour that applies to all and ensures that nobody is above the law is essential to groups still fighting for justice. That includes families affected by the nuclear test scandal and those impacted by the Chinook disaster, whose pursuit of truth has been obstructed for far too long. In both cases, it is understood that thousands of documents remain restricted, despite the events being decades ago. There must be no built-in escape route, whereby any state body can decide for itself what evidence it provides to an inquiry or an investigation, as exists in the Government’s current provisions; that would be carte blanche for future cover-ups. Campaigners on these causes have stood shoulder to shoulder in the fight for a Hillsborough law, and I and many other hon. Members from across the House will not abandon them now, nor should this Government. Any proposed amendments that weaken that commitment must be withdrawn.
My amendment 23, which is supported by more than 70 Members of this House, would remove the carve-out for the intelligence and security services that exempts them from the duty of candour. Since the Bill was shelved in January, no Minister has been able to explain why my amendments cannot be accepted, or why those services should not be subject to the same duty. The amendment, which is fully supported by all campaigns connected to the Hillsborough law, simply applies existing national security safeguards that are already used elsewhere to the duty of candour. This ensures that those bodies are not placed above the law, while maintaining full protection for national security. The Government’s stated concerns about national security therefore do not withstand scrutiny. My amendments would have zero adverse impact on national security, so as the parliamentary lead for the Hillsborough law, I ask again: why can those amendments not be adopted, and why can the full Hillsborough law not be passed when the House returns in the next Session?
In what has been a difficult 18 months for this Government, marked at times by damaging and totally avoidable political choices, we must not allow this to become another self-inflicted wound, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. The Hillsborough law is far too important. Delivered in full, it would be transformational, placing social justice at the very heart of Government and showing the public clearly and convincingly whose side we are on. I know that that is what we both want, Minister. A firm commitment without delay to delivering on this Government’s promise is the very least that those who have fought for justice for so long deserve. It must happen as soon as this House returns in May.
Paula Barker (Liverpool Wavertree) (Lab)
I pay tribute to the families of the Hillsborough victims, and to all other families whom this law encompasses. I welcome this carry-over motion, but in all honesty, it is absolutely shameful that it is needed. In September 2024 in Liverpool, in his speech to the Labour party conference after being elected, the Prime Minister made a commitment to introducing the Hillsborough law into Parliament. He talked of the
“countless injustices over the years, suffered by working people at the hands of those who were supposed to serve them”,
and spoke of his “driving purpose” to show that
“Politics can be on the side of truth and justice.”
That is exactly why I cannot support a Bill that would provide an exemption from the duty of candour for members of the intelligence services. It would mean that the heads of the security services could decide that their operatives should not give evidence to an inquest or a public inquiry on grounds of national security.
None of the families and friends of the victims of the Hillsborough disaster, the fire at Grenfell Tower, the Horizon scandal or the Manchester Arena bombing wants to endanger national security in any way. However, there are already legal provisions to safeguard national security in the case of inquests or public inquiries. In fact, MI5’s website sets out clearly what they are. Under the Inquiries Act 2005, statutory public inquiries have the power to compel witnesses to give evidence, but the Act also allows for an application to be made for a restriction notice that can limit the extent to which evidence disclosed can be made public if it could genuinely damage national security. The same Act provides for a witness to apply for public interest immunity on the grounds of national security so that they do not have to give evidence, but crucially, it is for the chair of the inquiry to decide whether that should be granted, balancing the public interest in withholding the information against the public interest in disclosure.
There is no reason why an additional exemption is needed in the Public Office (Accountability) Bill—quite the contrary. The mission of our security services and the police is to keep our citizens safe, and the police failed in the case of Hillsborough; MI5 failed in not preventing the Manchester Arena bombing. They then tried to cover up that failure, which risks the failure being repeated. A duty of candour for public officials must include intelligence officers, to ensure that the truth always comes to light and lessons are learned that will make us all safer in the future.
In his report on the Manchester Arena bombing, the inquiry chair, Sir John Saunders, wrote that witnesses from the intelligence services
“who gave direct factual evidence to me during the closed hearing were able to offer real insight into their thought processes at the time. On occasion, it became apparent that the Security Service’s corporate position did not reflect what those officers did, thought or would have done at the material time. Rather, the corporate position was more by way of a retrospective justification for the actions taken or not taken.”
That damning judgment shows how important it is that heads of the intelligence services are not allowed to prevent the duty of candour from fully applying to their officers. I welcome the fact that the Bill will be carried over into the next Session and will not fall, but I am angry that it is not on the statute book already. The duty of candour must apply to all public officials, and on the Wednesday before last, the Prime Minister committed to that in his answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool West Derby (Ian Byrne).
The report of the Independent Office for Police Conduct on Hillsborough was published in December. It was heartbreaking to read again how people suffered on 15 April 1989, but also the details of the subsequent cover-up and the cruel attempt to blame the victims. It took until 2016 for an inquest to finally rule that they had been unlawfully killed, and there is still no accountability or justice. That cover-up caused incredible pain to people who, to this day, continue to grieve for the loved ones they lost. Again, I pay tribute to them, and to the families of my constituents Keith McGrath, who lost his life, and Andrew Devine, who was the 97th victim of the Hillsborough tragedy. I hope that when this Bill is reintroduced in the next Session, the Prime Minister will make good on the promise he made, in order to prevent anyone else having to suffer as those families have done over the past 37 years.
I say to the Minister that there has been enough obfuscation from our party and our Government. I do not know who is preventing this Bill from going forward, but it is absolutely shameful, and it must stop. The Hillsborough law must be delivered in full, and I think the Minister knows that there are many people in this Chamber, and certainly in Liverpool and Merseyside, who will accept nothing less than the Hillsborough law. Justice for the 97!
Alex Davies-Jones
I thank all Members who have contributed to the debate for their continued support for what is, as they have said, a fundamentally important landmark Bill. It is for the 97, but also for all of victims of all the tragedies who have had to suffer and endure continued pain and trauma as a result of state cover-ups and the preventing of the truth from being sought. I can answer the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Bromborough (Justin Madders): the Bill will come back as soon as possible. It is a Bill for the families, and we continue to work with them daily to ensure that we get this right. The Government’s first priority is national security, and we will not compromise on that, but we are determined to get this right.
We are also committed to ensuring that there are no carve-outs, and there will be no carve-out for the security services—I make that commitment again at this Dispatch Box. They will be covered by the legally binding duty of candour and the new criminal offences in the Bill, and it is important for us to continue to work together to find the way through. As I have said, we are continuing to work with the campaigners, with the security services, with other Departments and with the Intelligence and Security Committee to ensure that we find a way forward.
My hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley (Anneliese Midgley) spoke powerfully the words of Charlotte Hennessy and Margaret Aspinall, and I want to put it on record that I love working with her too. As I have said, this is a Bill for the families, and earlier today I had the privilege of meeting Jenni Hicks again. I will meet her on Thursday as well, along with Debbie Matthews, and I speak regularly with Charlotte Hennessy, Margaret Aspinall and many of the other families to ensure that we are consulting them and keeping them informed and updated on the Bill’s progress. I will continue to endeavour to do that, to the best of my abilities.
I also want to place on record the Government’s disgust at the briefings, the leaking, and the way in which some of this is playing out in the media. The Government do not condone that. The Government are determined and committed to get the Bill on to the statute book as soon as possible. Whatever is being briefed to the media is not the Government’s position, and we remain resolute in working collegiately with the campaigners to find a way forward.
My hon. Friends the Members for Liverpool West Derby (Ian Byrne) and for Liverpool Wavertree (Paula Barker)—those tenacious campaigners—have stated very clearly this evening that there should and will be no carve-out, and that the Bill should serve as a legacy to the 97. It is far too important for us not to keep our promise, and I can say to my hon. Friends again that I commit myself to working with them and everyone else in the House to get the Bill right. We will bring it back as soon as possible, but we will do so only once we have full agreement with the families that this is the Hillsborough law, so that it can be on the statute book, it can be that legacy, and it can be that fundamental reframing of the relationship between the state and families. I commend the motion to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Business of the House (Today)
Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill
(3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
23:19 - The House divided: - Ayes: 272 / Noes: 64 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
I can inform the House that Lords amendment 38X engages Commons financial privilege. If the Lords amendment is agreed to, I will cause the customary entry waiving Commons financial privilege to be entered in the Journal.
After Clause 26
Power to require internet service providers to prevent or restrict access by children to internet services
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Olivia Bailey)
I beg to move,
That this House insists on its disagreement with the Lords in their Amendments 38V to 38X to Commons Amendment 38J, and proposes Amendments (a) to (j) to Commons Amendments 38J and 38K in lieu of the Lords Amendments.
Madam Deputy Speaker
With this it will be convenient to consider the following Government motion:
That this House agrees with the Lords in their Amendment 105C.
Olivia Bailey
I am pleased to speak once again on the Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill, and I will start by reminding colleagues why it matters. First, and most importantly, this Bill is about keeping children safe, ensuring that no child is let down by the system, and ensuring that children in care get the support and love that they deserve. This Bill is about high standards in schools for all our children, so that every child can get on in life and succeed; it is about excellent teachers in every school following our modern, world-leading national curriculum; and it is about removing barriers to opportunity and lifting 100,000 children out of poverty through our expansion of free school meals.
There will be no more eye-watering uniform bills, and there will be free breakfast clubs in every primary school. We are already seeing the difference that this is making: children enjoying not just a healthy breakfast, but a wonderful, supportive start to the school day. That is driving improvements in attendance and behaviour, and saving parents time and money, as this Government continue to do everything we can to support people with the cost of living. The Bill ensures safety and opportunity for all children in this country, and as my right hon. Friend the Education Secretary said when she introduced it, this Bill is for them.
I am grateful to everybody who has engaged with the passage of this legislation in both Houses, and I am glad that on the issues we have most recently discussed—admissions and particularly phones in schools—we have found a way forward. I thank the noble Baroness Barran, the Opposition spokesperson in the other place, for meeting me this afternoon to discuss our shared ambition to ensure that children should not have access to mobile phones at any point in the school day. I am glad that Members of the other place have supported that position today.
Lords amendment 105C is a minor amendment to adjust the Bill’s long title, to reflect the addition of the allergies measures.
On the remaining question of access to social media, we have listened carefully to the concerns raised across both Houses about the importance of the Government acting swiftly once the consultation has concluded, and we have significantly strengthened the power. The Government have said repeatedly that it is a question of how we act, not if, but to put this beyond any doubt, we are placing a clear statutory requirement that the Secretary of State “must”, rather than “may”, act following the consultation. That brings forward regulations without pre-empting the consultation’s outcomes, and does not ignore the tens of thousands of parents and children who have already engaged with us.
Let us be clear: the status quo cannot continue. We are consulting on the mechanism, which is the right thing to do, but we are clear that under any outcome we will impose some form of age or functionality for children under 16. I can also confirm that consideration of restrictions such as curfews will be in addition to that, not instead of it. As the Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology has said, we are focused on addictive features, harmful algorithmically-driven content and features such as stranger pairing, which we know can be most damaging to children’s safety and privacy.
The Government have committed in legislation to publishing a timeline as part of the statutory progress report already set out in the Bill. Recognising the strength of feeling and our shared determination to reach the quickest possible action, we are reducing the timeline further this evening. Our statutory progress report must now be made three months after the Bill receives Royal Assent, reflecting our intention to quickly produce a response following the consultation. Following that report, we will have 12 months to lay regulations, but our firm intention is to move faster, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology has been clear that we aim to do so by the end of the year.
In exceptional circumstances, the Government have the option to extend the timeline by a further six months. To be clear, we have no intention to use this six-month backstop, except for in serious and unforeseen circumstances. In that event, we would need to return to Parliament to explain why the extension was needed. In recognition of the strong concerns expressed about harmful and addictive design features, we have further specified that the Secretary of State must have due regard to such features when deciding how to exercise the power and making future regulations.
We all share the same objective: keeping children safe online. These changes give us the strongest foundation for quick and decisive action.
Victoria Collins (Harpenden and Berkhamsted) (LD)
You talk about swift action, but actually what you talked about—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
Order. I have not spoken about swift action. Would the hon. Member like to make another short intervention appropriately?
Victoria Collins
I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Minister talks about swift action, but the timelines put forward in the Lords still add up to 21 months before there is action. Does the Minister believe that that is at all swift? I do not think that parents will.
Olivia Bailey
I have been clear with the hon. Member about our determination to act swiftly. These measures are a ceiling, not an ambition. We will act swiftly, reporting by the summer and then acting within 12 months.
To conclude, I urge hon. Members to support the Government’s motions before the House today, including our amendments in lieu. Throughout the Bill’s passage, we have listened to concerns from all parts of the House and made meaningful changes where needed. We will continue to listen to all stakeholders as we move into implementation.
Laura Trott (Sevenoaks) (Con)
On Friday, after Labour MPs had repeatedly blocked a social media ban for under-16s, we had a new proposal from the Government. It was not a serious response to the issue we are facing. It gave the Government three years to take unspecified action on social media, which was nowhere near good enough. Today, that has changed. We now have a commitment from the Government that they will impose an age restriction for children under 16, which will be in addition to, not instead of any curfews. That is a huge step forward in keeping children safe and in supporting parents in their fight against screens destroying children’s lives.
We should remember that at the start of the Bill’s passage 18 months ago, the Government said that a social media ban was not something they were looking at. We have moved so far, and things have only changed because of the unity of those on the Opposition Benches, because of Lord Nash’s brilliant campaign and because of the coalition behind Raise the Age. It is a victory for the teachers and health professionals who have constantly made the arguments, and it has happened because of the voices of brave bereaved parents such as Ellen, Lisa, Esther, George, Mariano and sadly far too many more who have lost their children, but who will never give up the fight for everyone else’s. They are why I have not given up this fight, and it is for them that I have been fighting. I would not be able to look those brave parents in the eye if we allowed the Government to get away with a timeline that meant they did not even have to act in this Parliament.
I welcome the Government’s constructive engagement on this issue, and we see a new proposal today that has a much more acceptable timeframe, albeit not as short as I would like. Every month of delay just leaves children more exposed to the harms of social media online. I urge the Minister to keep to her word today and ensure that action is as swift as possible.
Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)
May I take this opportunity to congratulate my right hon. Friend and Lord Nash on a hard-fought but important campaign? We now have a commitment in principle from the Government that they will ban the use of social media by under-16s, which will be welcomed across the country by concerned parents. Can she reassure me and the House that all that fighting was worth it?
Laura Trott
My right hon. Friend, as ever, is absolutely correct. As on the smartphone ban in schools, we have been fought every step of the way. I am just glad that right at the end of proceedings, we have managed to have a constructive discussion and to get to where we wanted to be right from the beginning.
Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Stamford) (Con)
I am intervening because I am a little bit concerned. One of the Ministers and the Parliamentary Private Secretaries are mouthing across the Chamber that there will be no ban. I would be grateful for clarification that there is unity on the Labour side. It is clear—I have checked with those around me, and they all agree that that is exactly what is being mouthed—so it is a bit confusing.
Laura Trott
I would be incredibly concerned if that were the case. Would the Minister like to intervene and indicate whether any PPS sitting behind her was doing that? [Interruption.] She says no. Well, that is good to know. It would be incredibly concerning if that were the case.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I think every one of us would welcome the Government’s movement on mobile phones. In Northern Ireland, we had a pilot scheme to start with. We all welcome this measure on the issue of social media. It is for England and Wales, I understand, but will the shadow Secretary of State—I wanted to ask this in an intervention on the Secretary of State—consider passing on the details of the legislative change, so that we in Northern Ireland can take advantage of some of the good things coming forward? We should share those good things.
Laura Trott
As ever, the hon. Gentleman is correct. I am sure that will be picked up by the Minister in her closing remarks.
Sir Roger Gale (Herne Bay and Sandwich) (Con)
My right hon. Friend knows that I have been gravely concerned about this issue. I, too, commend her on a very hard-fought fight, but I remain concerned that we had a vehicle before us, in Lord Nash’s amendment, which would have dealt with the programme now—not in five, six, 10 or 12 months’ time. I hope very much that when the Minister replies she will confirm that it will be adhered to. If it is not, then this House will regard that as a matter of bad faith. I do not propose to vote against the Government tonight if my right hon. Friend has struck that agreement.
Laura Trott
My right hon. Friend is always correct to be worried, but he will know that in Lord Nash’s amendment a 12-month delay was written in. I think it is reasonable to give the Government some time to bring the measure forward. As I said, the delay is not as short as I would like, but we have shown throughout the passage of the Bill—albeit a little too late, as I mentioned to the Minister—that we are able to compromise. I think we have shown good faith and I hope that is what the Government will now deliver on.
Politics matters. It can make a difference. We have shown tonight that when we come together we can deliver in the interests of children.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
I remind Back-Bench colleagues who wish to contribute that their contributions must relate to the amendments in front of us.
Fred Thomas (Plymouth Moor View) (Lab)
I congratulate and thank the Minister for her brilliant leadership throughout the passage of the Bill. It is fantastic to see this Labour Government delivering for children. In Plymouth, the free breakfast clubs have made an enormous difference. The measures in the Bill, including those with amendments, will be fantastic for children going forward.
On the amendment relating to social media age restrictions, I first note that the Opposition are doing a good job of making it sound like they have campaigned for this for years and years. They were in government for 14 years. Can I reveal to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, when it became their policy? It was three months ago, in January. I congratulate them on a very hard-fought three months, when the strong zeitgeist of the entire western world has been to age-restrict social media.
I thank Science, Innovation and Technology Ministers on the Front Bench for doing the hard work. They are not in opposition, quickly jumping on a bandwagon and trying to claim easy wins; they are consulting thoroughly with residents across the country, including in the south-west. I am really grateful for that, because we have to get this right—we have to do it. There is immense support across the House and among many colleagues for increasing age restrictions. We want this to happen and the Government are listening to us, but they want to do it in a careful way and I support doing it in a way that sticks. I note that our Labour party colleagues in Australia have done it and found immense success in their public approval ratings. Why is that? It is because the public know and families know—in fact, I think I can say that children know—that further protection through increasing age restrictions is needed. That is why it is so crucial to get this right. I welcome the Government’s amendment.
Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)
The hon. Gentleman mentions his Labour colleagues in Australia and the great success they have had with their vision. Why are his Government dithering and delaying?
Fred Thomas
I politely disagree about dithering and delay. The Government are getting on as quickly as possible. The consultation was launched rapidly and is taking place right now, and the Government have committed to implementing the findings of the consultation as quickly as possible. I can assure the hon. Lady and the whole House that Back Benchers such as myself and my colleagues on the Government Benches will be holding the Government to account to ensure that they do that as quickly as possible. I have been assured that they are going to do so, and I take them at their word. It is really important that the House gets behind these measures, and I am extremely grateful to Ministers for making this happen.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.
Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD)
I am dismayed that we find ourselves here yet again on this Bill. I remind the House that this is the Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill, and currently one of the biggest threats to our children’s wellbeing is online harms, not least as a result of harmful social media, alongside other online harms such as addictive gaming and chatbots.
I recognise and welcome that the Government have moved a little since we last debated amendments to the Bill last week: Ministers have finally made the commitment in legislation that the Government must take action, rather than may take action. There has also been some limited movement on the issue of addictive by design—a key principle that the Liberal Democrats have been pressing—although clearer and stronger wording on this point would be helpful, not least in view of the recent court cases in the US.
Critically, we have been pressing for a clear time-bound commitment to action. I must say that the initial timeline put forward by the Government in the other place this afternoon was, frankly, laughable. When parents and carers, young people, grandparents and teachers in their tens of thousands are demanding urgent action on teenagers’ access to harmful social media, setting out a three-year timeline for introducing regulations to this place—let alone implementing them—was ludicrous. I note that this evening the Government have shortened that period to 21 months.
Ministers have said repeatedly from the Dispatch Box that the current consultation is very short and sharp. I welcome the fact that they have committed to bringing forward a report in three months’ time, whereas previously they had said that it would take six months, but why do they need a further full year to lay regulations, and then a further six months’ buffer? Countries around the world are taking action right now. This Government have shown that when they want to move quickly on an issue, they have the means to do so. The compromising of children’s wellbeing and safety online every single hour of every single day is a damn good reason to move quickly and to bring forward amendments acceptable to both Houses of Parliament and, most importantly, to the people of this country.
In the debate in the other place this afternoon, we heard excellent speeches from across the party divides—Labour, Conservative, Cross-Bench, Liberal Democrat—all calling for urgent action. A number backed Lord Nash’s amendment again, even though many, including the Liberal Democrats, are unhappy with his particular approach, all because we want to ensure that the Government move further and faster.
May I draw the Minister’s attention to the noble Baroness Kidron’s excellent amendment that was considered in the other place this afternoon? As the Government will know, she is widely respected on the subject of online safety. Her amendment deals with all these important issues: safety by design; a harms-based approach with variable age-gating; and allowing the Government eight months to lay regulations and up to 12 months in total to enact them. Indeed, Lord Nash’s amendment, which the Government are choosing to vote down, committed to action within eight months, instead of this three months, plus six months, plus 12 months, plus another six months, adding up to 21 months before we might see any action. My noble Friend Lord Clement-Jones set out clearly that the Liberal Democrats support the approach set out in Baroness Kidron’s amendment, and I strongly agree with him.
I would like to repeat my noble Friend Lord Mohammed’s offer: we stand ready to come together, cross-party, to act together, legislate together and protect our children from online harms and ensure that teenagers do not have access to harmful social media. The time is now. We will keep pressing through the night if necessary, until Prorogation, to ensure that our children and young people are not let down by this Government at this critical moment.
Darren Paffey (Southampton Itchen) (Lab)
I start by saying how proud I am of the Government in bringing forth a momentous Bill. Its Committee was only the second Bill Committee that I cut my teeth on, and it is a Bill of a generation. It breaks down so many of the barriers that were built up under the inaction of the previous Government. I really welcome what this Government are doing.
I very much welcome Government amendment 38K. Last July, I asked the Prime Minister in this Chamber what action he would take to keep young people safe online and safe from social media. He promised to look at the measures needed to create a safer online experience. That has been done; we have seen that, and it is part of the consultation that is going on. He also said that we will not hesitate to take further steps. A process of three months, plus 12 months, plus six months is, by many definitions, a little hesitant. If it is the worst-case scenario, may I seek the Minister’s assurance of the shortest timeframe that she sees as possible?
By 2028-29, the childhoods of many who are already facing these harms on a daily basis will be over, at least in age. If we do not act as soon as we can—this year, not next—the childhoods of too many will be brought to a crashing end by poor mental health, addictions, cyber-bullying, and the porn and violence that we know is rife in social media content.
Ms Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)
My hon. Friend is making a very powerful case for the importance of acting quickly. One of the reasons many of us want swift action is the concern that those who profit from the proliferation of addictive and negative content online may be driving some of these conversations. We have talked a lot tonight about timelines. Does he agree with me that it would be helpful to hear a cast-iron assurance from the Minister that public health activists, bereaved parents and the children themselves will be at the heart of the consultation about how this is brought forward, not the tech companies?
Darren Paffey
It would be most welcome to hear the Minister’s reassurance about who this Government are acting for. The 21-month process may not serve young people growing up in Britain, or their parents, carers or teachers who are crying out for help. Will the Minister acknowledge that any delay past that minimum timeframe for action will only serve the very companies that my hon. Friend referred to—the social media companies who even to this day deny all responsibility and make absurd claims, as they did in the Education Committee last week, that social media is not inherently addictive? It is not good enough to let them get away with making such ludicrous claims.
Will the Minister give an assurance from the Dispatch Box tonight that, regardless of whatever temper tantrum the tech companies probably will throw when this Government do take action, their policy and commitment is to act in the weeks and the months following the consultation, and to bring in laws now, in 2026, to protect children and young people?
Alicia Kearns
Social media is the biggest child protection issue of our time, whether it is sexual exploitation, grooming, bullying, radicalisation or, of course, mental health and the risk of addiction. Raising the social media age limit to 16 is the right thing to do. I welcome the Government making this decision and thank them for doing so. That is why this Chamber and that of the Lords exist: because no one can make the right policy in isolation; we come together as a House, particularly with the support of our country.
No MP in this room has not been inundated by parents and children desperately asking them to make sure that this change is brought forward. It is good news, and I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Laura Trott) on her hard work pushing the Government on it. I also thank the Lords for their work. There is no question but that their vote this evening was absolutely decisive.
Locally, I want to mention the Conversation Stamford, who are an incredible group, mainly of mothers who have come together to go around our schools and fight to have a good, honest and important conversation about what access young people should have not only to social media but to phones. They are working class by class to get parents to come together as a community, to make a decision where they all stand together on what access their children have, to protect them together. We will hold the Government to this promise; the shadow Secretary of State most certainly will, and parents will be watching. Most of all, we are doing this for parents; it is they who will hold the Government to account. This is a good day; it shows that the right thing happens when the House comes together and does what is in the national interest and the best interests of our children and our future.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Olivia Bailey)
I thank Members from across the House for their considered contributions to the debate, at this late hour and throughout the passage of this legislation. There were some fantastic speeches just now. My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth Moor View (Fred Thomas) made a great speech about the importance of measures that stick, work and are implemented swiftly. I commend him for his campaigning on this issue.
The hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) pressed me further about the timeline; I repeat to her what I said in my opening speech. We have been clear that we will act swiftly, and that we will give the House a progress report by the summer. Regulations will be laid before Parliament within 12 months. That is not a target: we are going to act more swiftly than that, and have said that we intend to have laid the regulations by the end of the year. As I said, we do not intend to use the six months at the end of that timeline. They are there purely in case of exceptional and unforeseen circumstances.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton Itchen (Darren Paffey) for his service on the Bill Committee, and point him to the comments I just made to the hon. Member for Twickenham.
Gareth Snell (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab/Co-op)
I want to be clear in my own mind. Opposition Members seem to think that they have extracted from the Government a commitment that social media for under-16s will be banned as a result of the amendment. The wording does not say that—[Interruption.] Let me finish—[Interruption.] Honestly, Madam Deputy Speaker, I am asking a question to the Minister, not the Opposition. Can she clarify that point, so that what I have heard from the Opposition is confirmed by the Government?
Olivia Bailey
I will repeat what I said earlier. Let us be clear that the status quo cannot continue. We are consulting on the mechanism—that is the right thing to do—but we are clear that under any outcome, we will impose some form of age or functionality restrictions for children under 16. I also confirm that consideration of restrictions such as curfews will be in addition to, not instead of, the provision.
Finally, I turn to the speech made by the hon. Member for Rutland and Stamford (Alicia Kearns). I enjoyed the spirit of her contribution and agree that when the House works together, great things can happen. I join the right hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Laura Trott) in thanking once again the bereaved parents who have campaigned so hard and so bravely on this issue.
The Bill has been before us for nearly 18 months. Although it has been a huge privilege to argue for the transformational measures in the legislation during that time, I very much hope that this is the last time I will need to do so. It is time for free breakfast clubs in every primary school in England. It is time to cut the cost of school uniforms, to ensure that phones do not disrupt a single second of the school day, and to keep our children safe online. It is time to ensure that there are excellent teachers in excellent schools, to stop children falling through the cracks between local services, to transform child safeguarding arrangements, and to support children in care. It is time to put Benedict’s law on to the statute book, and to lift 100,000 children out of poverty with our record expansion of free school meals.
This Bill ensures safety and opportunity for every child in this country, so that every child has the best start in life. Its measures are desperately needed, and we cannot afford to wait a moment longer.
Question put.
House of Commons Commission
Petitions
(3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate
Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Stamford) (Con)
This Government have legislated to protect railcard discounts for young people, the elderly and disabled passengers, yet shamefully in the same breath voted against doing the same for our veterans and armed forces. The Government told us that we should simply trust them not to remove these railcards in the future. That is not good enough and, frankly, is another black eye for our veterans and armed forces. I thank the 225 people who signed this petition with a wet signature, and the 1,623 people who signed my separate online petition on this issue. If the principle is sound enough to enshrine in law for others, it is sound enough to enshrine in law for those who serve their nation.
The petition states:
The petition of residents of the United Kingdom,
Declares that Veterans and HM Forces rail travel discounts should be protected in law.
The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urge the Government to introduce legislation to create a statutory duty for the continued provision of the Veterans Railcard and HM Forces Railcard schemes.
And the petitioners remain, etc.
[P003192]
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
I rise to present a petition on the future of the Penzance driving test centre. The metrics used by the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency assume homogenised geographic uniformity, but we are at the end of a long thin peninsula. The DVSA offers a postcode search tool, which is irrelevant to areas like mine. Distress levels are high among instructors and learners; after all, they cannot travel north, south or west to find an alternative centre. During summer daytime, a round trip from the west of my constituency to the nearest centre in Camborne can take over three hours. Penzance is open only two days a week, and I am told that the situation is getting significantly worse. With the lease expiring in 2028, many constituents, such as local instructor Mark Squire, who is pressing to restore pre-covid opening times, fear the worst for the centre. Alongside this Parliament-compliant petition is a further petition calling for the same, with another 1,121 supporters.
This petition states:
“The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to ensure that the Penzance DVSA Test Centre is reinstated to full-time operation.
And the petitioners remain, etc.”
Following is the full text of the petition:
[The petition of residents of the constituency of St Ives,
Declares that the Penzance DVSA Test Centre should be reinstated to full-time operation in order to provide a service which meets the driving test demand in West Cornwall; further declares that the reduction in availability has caused significant inconvenience and delays for learners and instructors in the area, with waiting times now exceeding national averages; further declares that the closure or part-time operation of the centre forces residents to travel long distances to alternative test centres, increasing costs and carbon emissions, and disproportionately affecting rural communities and those without access to private transport; and further declares that local driving instructors report a severe backlog, which is impacting on employment opportunities and road safety for new drivers.
The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to ensure that the Penzance DVSA Test Centre is reinstated to full-time operation.
And the petitioners remain, etc.]
[P003194]
Ernest Bevin
(3 weeks ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)
Ernest Bevin was a Bristol barrow boy who became our Foreign Secretary. In between, he became not just a trade union leader, but the head of the largest union in the country. He then went on to play a vital role in the wartime cabinet as Minister of Labour. A titan of the labour movement, some suggest that he was Labour’s Churchill.
In this debate, to mark the 75th anniversary of his death a fortnight ago, I will examine his achievements and their relevance today. Bevin’s accomplishments are made only more impressive by his humble beginnings. Born into great poverty in a remote Somerset village, he was orphaned at eight and began working as a labourer at 11, then as a delivery lad on the streets of Bristol. In his 20s, he attended lectures at the Bristol adult school and the Workers Educational Association, beginning his lifelong commitment to education. Soon after, he would become the national organiser for the Dock, Wharf, Riverside and General Labourers’ union.
That informal education, and his life experience, made Bevin a formidable political operator. In 1922, alongside 13 other unions, Bevin led the formation of the Transport and General Workers’ Union. The amalgamation conference was held in Leamington Spa.
Warinder Juss (Wolverhampton West) (Lab)
On the eve of International Workers’ Memorial Day, this debate is highly appropriate. Does my hon. Friend agree that, as trade unionists and parliamentarians, we should commemorate that day tomorrow?
Matt Western
My hon. Friend is absolutely right that we should commemorate that day.
At the time of that amalgamation, the membership stood at 300,000 workers, but in just 15 years, Bevin would lead it to becoming the largest union in the country, with over 650,000 members. During that time as trade union leader, Bevin accelerated the rights, conditions and pay of the working class. His achievements included the introduction of a 40-hour working week, expanding holiday pay to 11 million workers and redefining the relationship between unions, Government and industry. Bevin truly was a visionary and a moderniser of industrial relations and left his mark on the UK’s political economy long after his tenure.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I commend the hon. Gentleman for securing this debate. My Strangford constituency has a very proud military and industrial heritage. I believe Bevin’s role in founding NATO and his unwavering support for a strategic nuclear deterrent are just as vital to his legacy. Does the hon. Member agree that Bevin’s common sense, patriotic approach is something that all of us, on both sides of this House, stand to learn from today, especially when it comes to supporting our veterans and of course our national defence?
Matt Western
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Bevin was a really significant figure and one of the most underestimated by history in terms of what he achieved for this country. He once said:
“I’m going to be at the Ministry of Labour from 1940 until 1990”,
and he would be proved right. It was not until Margaret Thatcher that certain of these rights would be removed, and as a union leader he was ambitious for change and saw the opportunity to be an MP and would prove a staunch ally to Clem Attlee.
Bevin’s abilities caught the eye, too, of Winston Churchill. In 1940, under the coalition Government and despite their previous battles, Churchill insisted on appointing Bevin to Minister of Labour, saying:
“He is the Labour man I want.”
Bevin led the full-scale mobilisation and demobilisation of industry and the country while simultaneously advancing wages, conditions and the equality of the working class. He understood that compulsory work orders should only be used in exceptional circumstances, and his experience in the unions had taught him that workers with high morale would be more willing to contribute to the war effort.
In the early years of Bevin’s tenure, there was a serious debate regarding his voluntaryism, but by 1944 a third of the civilian population was engaged in war work, including over 7 million women, who played a crucial role in the war production.
Gareth Snell (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab/Co-op)
Just nine days before Mr Churchill invited Ernie Bevin to become the Minister for Labour in his Government, Mr Bevin was stood in Hanley town hall in my constituency giving a public rally address on the importance of the working class towards the war effort, and it is believed that the coverage of that speech in The Times two days later is what caught Churchill’s eye and encouraged Mr Churchill to invite him into his Government, which is a testimony to the power of oratory that sometimes we miss in today’s debates—although obviously not this one—and also that, wherever we look, there is a Stoke-on-Trent connection to most parts of our social history.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
That was a high-quality intervention.
Matt Western
I will try and raise my standards to the level of oratory that my hon. Friend would now expect.
The role of women in the war effort proved decisive, and the mobilisation proved decisive to the overall war effort and gave Britain an advantage over Nazi Germany. As striking was the effect of demobilisation on a peacetime economy. It was all this work that led Bevin’s Labour Ministry to be likened to Roosevelt’s new deal, a theme to which I will return.
Following Labour’s victory in the 1945 election, Bevin was appointed Foreign Secretary, a move that surprised many. Attlee’s justification was simple: he thought that affairs were going to be pretty difficult and that “a heavy tank” was going to be required “rather than a sniper.”
Bevin did not disappoint. His achievements were truly considerable. Bevin understood the threat of Stalin and his strategy sooner than any other leader, and Bevin’s intervention to secure Marshall aid in Europe, the recognition that western Europe needed political and economic unity, and his refusal to bow to Stalin’s demands must rate at the very top of all diplomatic successes.
Bevin and Attlee’s decision to allow US B-29 bombers to be stationed in the UK sent a clear message to Stalin that the UK and US were resolute in the defence of West Berlin and Europe. Although Bevin understood the importance of US support, he recognised the need to be independent and insisted on the UK securing its own atomic bomb with a
“Union Jack flying on top of it.”
However, perhaps his greatest achievement was the formation of NATO. It was largely his own initiative, as he drove forward the eventual signing of the treaty in 1949 through sheer determination.
I should take this moment to acknowledge that Bevin was a man, as well as a phenomenon, who had his faults and misjudgements: his staunch imperialism, manifesting itself in the rejection of Indian independence, his handling of Israel-Palestine or the Malayan uprising, and his antisemitic views were all wrong. I do not excuse him, but there is much to recognise in his vision of the wider world and its relevance to today. As he saw in the 1930s and in 1945, we now see order crumbling around us and certainties of the past no longer hold true.
What are the lessons to be learned from the great Bevin? He showed that Governments need to cajole, convince and collaborate, they cannot dictate and they must have dialogue with the public—let us call it a national conversation. They need to be honest about the reality of the threat, the necessity of public partnerships, both with industry and the workers, and the sacrifice that may be needed. That is why the Joint Committee on the National Security Strategy has launched its inquiry into a national conversation on societal resilience that seeks to raise awareness and build a deeper understanding of a whole of society approach to our security and our resilience.
Secondly, Bevin’s approach to foreign policy was rooted in his ideals, but he understood that to be a player, not a spectator, the UK needed a grand strategy built on hard power, resources, strategic partnerships and ultimately based on the national interest. He grasped that reality in 1945 and it propelled western Europe to a stronger, more unified place. That is how important he was. He did not cling on to the dying world order—he built a new one.
All Bevin’s achievements were made possible only by his energy, ingenuity and his ability as an organiser. Take the Marshall plan: Bevin seized on a speech delivered by George Marshall on helping Europe. He would co-ordinate a joint European response by all those nations. Marshall aid was secured and western Europe got the lifeline it needed to survive. It was so significant, but without his drive, the grand strategy and the ideals would never have materialised.
To conclude, in 2024 the Prime Minister said:
“We must mobilise what Bevin called our ‘collective moral and material force’.”
He was right. As Ernest Bevin, labourer, trade unionist, Minister and world statesmen would say, we need “action this day.” Ernest Bevin was a colossus. His achievements have few parallels, and we should celebrate his life.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)
I call the Minister to continue to elevate the quality of the debate.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Chris Ward)
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Matt Western) for securing the debate and for his excellent speech, and I thank other hon. Members for their contributions. I am happy to have the opportunity to respond. I pass on apologies from the Paymaster General and Minister for the Cabinet Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds), who, as I am sure hon. Members will recognise, would dearly have loved to have responded to the debate, but is unable to be here because of a family matter, so I am standing in.
Ernest Bevin was a man of immense stature—a giant of the Labour movement and the embodiment of social mobility. He was born into poverty as the seventh child of a single mother and orphaned at the age of eight, yet he rose to be one of my party’s towering figures, one of his country’s most consequential Foreign Secretaries and one of the founders of NATO. He is aptly described by Lord Adonis in his recent biography as
“an international leader of unique charisma and authenticity.”
His life story is a testimony to both public service and to his immense perseverance, skill and energy.
Bevin never forgot his origins, keeping a photograph of his mother on his desk throughout his career. Leaving school at 11, he worked as a farm boy before moving to Bristol to take on a series of unskilled jobs, attending adult education classes and finding his voice as a Baptist lay preacher.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
On that point, will the Minister give way?
Chris Ward
I certainly will. Does my hon. Friend want to intervene because I mentioned Bristol?
Kerry McCarthy
Yes. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Matt Western) on securing the debate. We do not talk about Ernest Bevin enough, even in Bristol. There is a bust of him in the Unite building, which was the Transport and General Workers’ Union building, and there is a plaque on St Werburghs, but we could do a lot more to celebrate his achievements in Bristol. In his biography, it is said that by the age 13 he was driving a van around the streets of Bristol, which is a slightly alarming prospect, but his back story is absolutely amazing and, given his background, it goes to show what an amazing man he was to rise to be Foreign Secretary.
Chris Ward
I completely agree. I would like to see Bevin celebrated more in Bristol and across the country, particularly for his contribution to NATO and to the trade union movement.
Bevin’s journey into public service was firmly rooted in the union movement, which he saw as his true calling, as my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington said. Bevin passionately presented the dockers’ case for a pay rise in 1920, earning him the nickname the “Dockers’ KC”. He also played a major part in the founding of the Transport and General Workers’ Union—before today, I did not know that Leamington had a significant role in that, as my hon. Friend mentioned. Under Bevin’s pragmatic leadership, the TGWU brought together 14 unions to become Britain’s biggest trade union, boasting more than 650,000 members. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton West (Warinder Juss) said, it is quite right that we remember that today—the day before International Workers’ Memorial Day.
When our nation faced its darkest hour in May 1940, Bevin became Minister of Labour and National Service in the wartime coalition, heralded by Churchill and across the House, as we heard. It was in using his incredible organisational talents that Bevin helped Britain to achieve a significantly higher level of civilian mobilisation than any other country managed in the conflict. Following Labour’s landslide victory in 1945, Attlee appointed Bevin as Foreign Secretary, a role in which he left his mark on the world. As we have heard, he was central to the European recovery, working to unlock billions in Marshall aid and securing western security through closer co-operation with the Council of Europe, NATO and the Commonwealth.
Bevin was a figure of huge achievement but no little controversy. To put it politely, he was sometimes blunt in his speech. He was unable to find a peaceful solution in Palestine, and he was clear about his views on empire. Not every decision he made was the right one or one that I would agree with, but we remember him rightly as a relentless fighter, a fierce patriot and a champion for the working-class Britain that traditional political elites too often ignored.
Bevin was central to the great achievements of the first of the post-war Labour Governments, and his legacy offers much that we can learn from today. In the time that I have, I will pick just three lessons that I think we can learn from the most. The first is his pragmatism and unwavering commitment to get things done for working people. As a trade unionist and a Minister, Bevin understood that practical delivery was what mattered, trumping rigid ideology. In a similar way, this Labour Government will modernise our economy, tackle the cost of living and improve health outcomes, and we will do that in a partnership with employees, citizens and employers.
The second lesson is the great value of democracy and the urgent and continuous need to defend it. Bevin’s insight was the need for post-war Europe to resist oppression in all its forms. From our support for Ukraine, our Gulf allies and NATO to the drive for energy security, this Labour Government keep Bevin’s spirit alive. He also believed in the enduring value of strong alliances through strengthening Europe and maintaining global security through NATO, and our Government remain committed to that. Deepening our partnership with Europe, maintaining the international rule of law and working with our international partners together—that is how the best Labour Governments have worked before, and it is how this Government will proceed too.
Finally, Bevin understood the true value of a Britain strengthened by embracing the talents of all its people. Through his 1943 White Paper, he successfully fought to democratise the diplomatic service, arguing that recruiting from a wider range of backgrounds would vastly improve our global understanding—I believe the current Prime Minister calls this smashing the class ceiling. Bevin warned that choosing staff only from privileged, narrow circles meant that the lives of ordinary people remained strange to them. Today, any Government who wish to effectively serve their citizens must accurately reflect them, drawing on the widest pool of talent.
Ernest Bevin pushed himself to the limit for the country he loved, famously insisting on being carried in a sedan chair to the 1950 Colombo conference despite his failing health. He proved that public service requires immense energy and a relentless focus on tangible results. On his 70th birthday, the staff of the Foreign Service each contributed sixpence towards a present to him. Sixty years earlier, Bevin had left school to work on a farm for that same sum—just sixpence a week. It was that journey that shaped him, and it also shaped the party I love and the Britain he helped to build. I am immensely proud today to recognise his service, and determined that the spirit of his achievement will continue in all that this Labour Government do.
Question put and agreed to.