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Oral Answers to Questions
(14 years ago)
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Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
1. What progress her Department has made on increasing the efficiency and reliability of the Rural Payments Agency.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)
The agency is implementing the key recommendations from the independent review of the organisation, which was published on 20 July. That involves six priority projects designed to improve customers’ experience, establish an efficient operation and make essential preparations for the expected 2013 CAP reforms. Progress is being closely monitored by the RPA oversight board, which I chair.
Greg Mulholland
I thank the Minister for that answer and for attending the sustainability event the other evening. He is well aware of the chaos in the past few years with the single payment scheme system, and the Rural Payments Agency’s inability to pay farmers promptly—three alone in the Arthington area of my constituency. Can he please give an assessment of the Rural Payments Agency’s ability to carry that out and sort out the mess?
Mr Paice
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. As the House knows, there have been some dreadful performances by the RPA in years gone by, and they have not yet all been eliminated. There are still some long-standing cases, which we are trying to work through. We will do that as soon as possible. The board is making arrangements to speed up that process, but I am happy to tell my hon. Friend and the rest of the House that between 1 December, when the payment window started, and 3 December some 83,300 farmers were sent their single farm payment in those first three days—that is 79% of all claimants by volume. It is ahead of last year’s achievements, despite all the problems of mapping changes.
Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
2. What recent representations she has received on her Department’s funding for the educational access programme.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
The countryside provides a wonderful learning environment and many organisations do valuable work. My Department will continue to provide funding for educational access through existing agri-environment agreements and through capital payments under new higher level stewardship—HLS—agreements. We are also investigating ways of encouraging the continued provision of educational access, and of addressing the barriers that currently exist.
Mr Spencer
I am very grateful for that answer—I am delighted to hear it. I hope the Minister agrees that my constituents John and Kathy Charles-Jones, who provide access to farms for schoolchildren, do an excellent job of showing the next generation how technology and high levels of animal welfare are playing a big part in food production for the nation.
Richard Benyon
I and my ministerial colleagues are passionate about getting more people in this country to understand how our food gets from field to fork. We are impressed with the work that so many farmers, charities and other organisations do. We are listening to representations that several organisations are making to us. We want to see whether we can expand what goes on in the next phase of HLS schemes, to secure the capital payments and to work out ways we can eliminate some of the barriers to encouraging schools to get on to farms. That can include changing health and safety provision.
Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
3. Which planned flood defence schemes will not proceed as a result of her Department’s planned reduction in expenditure on flood defences.
Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)
18. Which planned flood defence schemes will not proceed as a result of her Department’s planned reduction in expenditure on flood defences.
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman)
I am sorry to have to tell the House some sad news. A member of Environment Agency staff was tragically killed yesterday in an accident. I hope the whole House will join me in extending our condolences to his family at this difficult time.
No schemes have been cancelled as a result of the spending review. Schemes already under construction or under contract will be completed. The Department has launched a consultation on how national funding should be allocated to flood protection schemes in future.
Toby Perkins
May I associate myself with the Secretary of State’s remarks a moment ago?
In Chesterfield in 2007, more than 500 homes were flooded and it was expected, from DEFRA’s previous statement, that 145,000 homes across the country would be removed from flood risk by 2011. I understand that the date has now been moved back to 2015. Does the Secretary of State recognise that the reduction in funding for flood defences and the removal of those homes from that earlier expectation flies in the face of the comments that she and her party made in opposition?
Mrs Spelman
With respect, I think the hon. Gentleman is confused about the figures. The Chancellor in fact gave the figure of 145,000 homes as a minimum to be protected during the spending review period—there was never any suggestion that that would happen by 2011.
I know that the hon. Gentleman has constituents in Chesterfield who are flood-affected. The Environment Agency is currently proceeding with the Avenue coking works remediation project, which is under construction. That should help to provide protection to more than 100 properties in his constituency.
Karl Turner
One key recommendation of the Pitt review was that the Government should increase spending on flood defences by more than inflation year on year. With the Government’s 27% cuts to flood defence budgets, have they turned their backs on communities such as mine in Hull East, which is still suffering very badly from the effects of the 2007 floods?
Mrs Spelman
Sir Michael Pitt’s review, which was commissioned by the hon. Gentleman’s party when it was in government, says that we
“should not simply assume that the costs of flood risk management will be met centrally…The Government should develop a scheme which allows and encourages local communities to invest in flood risk management”
schemes. The Government have launched a consultation on payment for outcomes, which will help to provide more flood defences to more communities in future.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
May I join the Secretary of State in expressing my condolences to the family of the Environment Agency member of staff who tragically lost his life? I pay tribute to all those who put themselves in harm’s way in the event of floods. All who serve on the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee would like to record our appreciation of their work.
I congratulate the Secretary of State on protecting capital expenditure. However, I am concerned to ensure that work will continue on maintaining watercourses and that more work will be done, because that too can protect from floods. May I draw her attention to the fact that the statement of principles may well not be reviewed in 2013? Is she alarmed by that development?
Mrs Spelman
My hon. Friend is right, as Chair of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, to record the Committee’s sympathy for the EA staff member.
DEFRA is expected to spend £2.1 billion over the period of the spending review on flooding—half will go on maintenance, and the other half on capital—so I am confident that we can maintain our flood defences. The Association of British Insurers has warmly welcomed the proposals under the payment for outcomes scheme. That will assist us in renegotiating the statement of principles.
Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con)
I have mentioned the Teignmouth flood defence scheme to the ministerial team on a number of occasions. May we have an update? Will funding be made available for those very important works?
Mrs Spelman
I cannot comment on individual projects ahead of Environment Agency decisions, which it has said it will make after the end of the consultation period on payment for outcomes, which concludes on 16 February. However, my hon. Friend’s concern about flooding in her constituency is taken very seriously by all of us.
Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab)
All on this side of the House share the condolences expressed by the Secretary of State for the Environment Agency worker who sadly lost their life.
I am afraid that the confusion mentioned by the Secretary of State is on the Government’s part. DEFRA’s 2009 report stated that 145,000 homes would be protected from flooding by March 2011. They have abandoned that aim because of huge cuts to the EA’s flood defence budget—27% next year—and instead now hope to protect the same number of homes by 2015, two years after the current agreement with the insurance industry expires. That deliberate choice to delay will cause widespread anxiety and uncertainty for homeowners, businesses and local authorities up and down the country. The Government should now be honest with the country: either they know which flood defence schemes will be abandoned and are aware of the consequences of those cuts, or the cuts are indiscriminate, and the consequences are not understood. Does the Secretary of State know which schemes will be abandoned—yes or no?
Mrs Spelman
I just said in answer to the previous question that the Environment Agency would make decisions on all pending schemes after the close of the consultation on 16 February. As regards the figure that Opposition Members keep quoting, at no point has the figure of 145,000 properties receiving more protection ever been attributed to a time any sooner than 2015, the end of the spending review period. It would be inappropriate to compare spending levels with those of the previous Government, because Labour has failed to say how it would have accommodated the 50% cut in capital that the previous Chancellor had committed it to.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
4. If she will bring forward proposals to prohibit the sale of primates as pets.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)
The Government do not encourage the keeping of primates as pets, but a code of practice for the welfare of privately kept non-human primates lays down robust guidance for primate owners and keepers. Failure to follow that code would put the owner at risk of prosecution under the Animal Welfare Act 2006.
Mark Pritchard
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that response, but self-regulation is not working. There are currently 5,000 primates kept as pets in the United Kingdom, many of them in cruel and cramped conditions. It is hard to believe that in the 21st century the party of Wilberforce, who apart from abolishing slavery set up the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, and the coalition Government are not doing more to end that barbaric and outdated practice.
Mr Paice
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for his determination on this subject and his rightful concern about animal welfare. I must point out that his figure of 5,000 is at the top end of the estimate. We do not know how many there are, but the estimate is between 1,200 and 5,000. If, as he says, many of them are being kept in cruel circumstances, that is not a matter for self-regulation; it is an offence under the Animal Welfare Act. If he or anybody else knows of primates being kept in what they believe to be cruel conditions, the owners are almost certainly in breach of providing the five freedoms, which is an offence.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
What discussions has the Minister had with counterparts in the Home Office on measures to ensure that primates that are brought into the UK for sale as pets are not caught in the wild and then diverted and used for research purposes in particular?
Mr Paice
I am very glad that the hon. Lady has asked me that question, because I asked it of myself yesterday when I was going through the information. In reality, primates are not coming in from the wild. I understand that only one animal in the past decade is believed to have been wild-caught and then brought into this country. Of course, they are all covered by the convention on international trade in endangered species anyway, so there are restrictions in place. Anyone wishing to import a primate into this country has to have a licence, and there are very strict conditions. I am happy to write to the hon. Lady if she would like to know about them.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
5. What discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on the roll-out of superfast broadband in rural areas.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
The Secretary of State and I are in regular contact with our ministerial colleagues at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport on this important matter. As a member of the ministerial group on broadband, I speak regularly with Ministers in those Departments on the key issues, including the rural superfast broadband pilots announced on 21 October and the national broadband strategy “Britain’s Superfast Broadband Future”, published on 6 December.
Mr Hollobone
The Kettering borough rural forum, which represents residents in all 22 villages in the borough, has contacted me to say that it is unhappy about slow rural broadband speeds, and about Kettering’s apparent exclusion from the Government’s attempt to tackle the problem and from the 160 locations announced by BT. Will my hon. Friend do all he can to help residents in the rural parts of Kettering borough address the issue?
Richard Benyon
I am very keen to help the constituents of my hon. Friend and other hon. Members, particularly in rural areas, who will benefit massively from the very good sum of money that we have announced—£530 million over this spending review period, increasing to £830 million in the two years after that. That will mean that constituents such as his will have the means not just to improve the quality of their lives but to run businesses and employ people. It will change the environment, and I can assure him that the disappointment of his constituents will soon be addressed as we start rolling out the hubs from which superfast broadband will operate. There is an enormous sum of money for a very ambitious project right across government, and I hope he will notice the difference very soon.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
When the Minister is in discussions with providers, will he make representations on behalf of people in rural areas who are complaining to me—and, I am sure, to many other hon. Members—that they keep seeing advertisements indicating significant broadband speeds, but that they can very seldom, if ever, get those speeds? Will he ensure that those companies’ advertisements are more accurate?
Richard Benyon
It is important that providers are accurate and that the Government give the lead in ensuring that what people are told is within the realms of reality. The first paragraph of the executive summary of “Britain’s Superfast Broadband Future” states:
“Rural and remote areas of the country should benefit from this infrastructure upgrade at the same time as more populated areas, ensuring that an acceptable level of broadband is delivered to those parts of the country that are currently excluded.”
That is our intention. We intend to carry those providers with us and to deliver for the hon. Gentleman’s constituents and others in rural areas.
Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con)
6. What her policy is on issuing dog control notices on private property.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)
As I think my hon. Friend is aware, a proposal to issue dog control notices on private land was included in the dangerous dog consultation, the responses to which we have now published. The Department will respond to the issues raised in the consultation, including wider matters, and will make an announcement about the Government’s approach in the new year.
Angie Bray
I thank the Minister for his answer. As he will be aware, the vast majority of those who responded to the consultation expressed opposition to the idea of dog control notices on private land. However, does he agree that we need to find a way of protecting workers, such as postal workers, who have to access private land to carry out their official duties?
Mr Paice
The answer has to be yes. Of course we feel responsible for public service workers who, to a degree, put themselves at risk from dogs on private property. I cannot prejudge the outcome of the discussions, but I can tell my hon. Friend that what is important is that, since the end of the consultation, the Home Office has announced a review of all antisocial behaviour tools. DEFRA is represented on that working group, which is reviewing all antisocial issues, including the law on dogs.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
I am sure I am not the only Member who has been bitten by a dog while election campaigning. More importantly, several of my constituents have also been bitten or had their dogs bitten by aggressive dogs. It is clear that dogs are being bred and kept for aggressive purposes. The Government have to get that under control. I suggest to the Minister that we need compulsory licensing, chipping and muzzling of dogs, especially for those known to be aggressive.
Mr Paice
In my experience, most letter boxes are dangerous enough on their own without the dog behind them. However, I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point entirely—this is a serious issue. I can only repeat that we have been out to consultation, and that the results of that consultation, including the most popular outcomes, are all on the website. The Government are considering the matter now and, as I said, are working with the Home Office, and will make an announcement shortly after Christmas.
Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)
7. What progress her Department has made on implementation of the recommendations of the Pitt review on lessons learned from the 2007 floods on levels of flood protection for homes.
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman)
Good progress has been made on taking forward the Pitt review recommendations. We are implementing the Flood and Water Management Act 2010 and have recently launched a consultation on our national strategy. We published the national flood emergency framework in July, and held a response exercise last month to launch preparations for Exercise Watermark, which will test responses to severe wide-area flooding in March next year.
Stephen Gilbert
I welcome the Secretary of State’s reply and was delighted to welcome her to Cornwall so that she could see for herself the recent flooding in my constituency and that of my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray). One of the lessons we have learned is that the Met Office gave a warning at 10.30 pm of an 80% chance of flooding some six hours before homes were affected and businesses destroyed, but that warning was never passed on to residents. Will she agree to meet me to discuss how we can improve early warnings?
Mrs Spelman
I commend my hon. Friend’s work in helping with the ongoing recovery in his constituency. I am sure that hon. Members will appreciate that it is hard to predict surface water flooding events. In the afternoon of that event, there was only a 20% risk of severe flooding, but by 10.30 pm, when most people are in bed and asleep, it had increased to an 80% risk. One lesson learned from previous flooding incidents is that flood wardens, who can knock on doors and alert, in particular, vulnerable members of the community of the increased risk, can assist a community’s resilience.
Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab)
Simon Douglas, the director of AA Insurance, was quoted in the Evening Standard as saying that “inadequate spending” on flood defences would
“leave thousands of homes uninsurable and thus un-mortgageable.”
What help will the Government offer to the thousands of people who will find themselves in that situation?
Mrs Spelman
I refer the hon. Lady to my earlier answer about the warm welcome that the Association of British Insurers has given to the payment for outcomes approach, which, as the ABI chairman made clear, is what Pitt called for, what the ABI has been calling for and what the communities that would like to build greater resilience have also been calling for. I am sure that it will assist those at risk of flooding.
Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
8. When she plans to publish a rural impact assessment in respect of the comprehensive spending review.
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman)
My Department is the rural champion in government, and we are working with other Departments as they develop their policies following the spending review. Those policies are the responsibility of individual Departments, but DEFRA will work with them to inform a policy statement in the new year, setting out this Government’s commitment to rural people, and our approach to promoting and supporting their needs.
Susan Elan Jones
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for her answer, but will she home in a little and give me one concrete example of something that DEFRA has done in this area?
Mrs Spelman
DEFRA is continually active in rural-proofing all policy that comes through, and hon. Members who have served in government will know that any Cabinet Minister has that function within their Department through DEFRA. The allocations have not yet been made, so the individual working out of the spending allocations has not been achieved. Let us consider, for example, the impact that DEFRA has had, working with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, in achieving a roll-of out superfast broadband in four rural pilot areas.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
The Department is facing deep cuts—34% in capital and 28%, I think, in current costs—thanks to the appalling profligacy of the previous Government. Does the Secretary of State agree that vital to our countryside is the maintenance of environmental schemes on our farms? We have got to preserve biodiversity and a higher level of environmental conditions in our countryside. I hope that she will be able to reassure the House today that despite the cuts, she will be determined to ensure that that still happens.
Mrs Spelman
I am delighted to be able to draw my hon. Friend’s attention to the fact that we anticipate an 80% increase in higher level stewardship schemes, notwithstanding the need for DEFRA to make a contribution to addressing the budget deficit that we inherited from the previous Government.
Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
We had expected the publication of the rural impact assessment, but I am afraid that all we got was more weak excuses for the Secretary of State’s failure to produce it. If she is having trouble completing her own assessment, will she at least back the findings of last month’s report on rural poverty by the Commission for Rural Communities—soon to be scrapped by her Department—which found a lack of proper business support provided to farmers by the Government, poorer access to welfare services in the countryside and a quarter of farming households living below the poverty line, under the first Government since 1926 to try to remove employment protection from agricultural workers? Is not the reality that this is a spending review that slashes investment from rural bus services and social housing, from a Government who are indifferent to the greater inequality that their policies will cause in rural Britain?
Mrs Spelman
Oh dear. I think that constitutes a serious own-goal. The hon. Gentleman should surely be aware that the data that the Commission for Rural Communities was using to make its assessment relate to the period when his party was in government.
Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con)
9. What recent progress her Department has made on reducing the burden of regulation on farmers.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
16. What recent progress her Department has made on reducing the burden of regulation on farmers.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)
One of my first actions was to appoint Richard Macdonald to lead a taskforce to identify ways of reducing the regulatory burden on farmers. The taskforce recently completed a public consultation and will make recommendations to the Government by April next year. I hope that it will bring about a change in culture in implementing our regulations, while at the same time maintaining standards.
Nadhim Zahawi
I thank the Minister for that reply. Farmers in Stratford-on-Avon will welcome the Government’s commitment to the industry-led review of regulation. Can he give farmers a time frame for the review, so that they can begin to enjoy a regime that makes it easier for them to produce the food that we eat and care for the countryside that we all cherish?
Mr Paice
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, as he and many others are championing the cause of reducing regulation in our rural areas. As I said, the taskforce will report to the Government in early April 2011, and we will then have to see how to take it forward. I cannot be absolutely precise about the time scales, but I would like to take this opportunity to say that this is not about reducing standards, but about reducing the burden of process that has become so prevalent over recent years. We have seen an obsession with process, whereas we need to move much more towards making a judgment on outcomes.
Alun Cairns
DEFRA has had a better regulation agenda for many years, but few, if any, farmers have seen any tangible benefit from the reduction in bureaucracy and red tape. What reassurance can the Minister give that the current review will lead to real benefits for farmers in my constituency and elsewhere?
Mr Paice
The reassurance I can give is simply this. When we were in opposition, seeing how the previous Government made noises about reducing regulation but never did it convinced me that we had to find a new way. It is not just a question of abolishing regulations—although if they can be abolished, they should be—but how we implement and enforce them. We have become obsessed with requiring farmers to fill in countless forms, tick loads of boxes and read legions of guidance notes when what really matters is whether the benefit expected from the regulation is achieved. That is what we have to focus on now.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Minister for his responses. One big concern of many farmers and landowners over the years has been about red tape, particularly filling in grant forms such as for, among other things, single farm payments. Sometimes they inadvertently fail to tick a box. Can we have some flexibility in the system to ensure that those who qualify for the grants get them and do not lose out because of one small mistake?
Mr Paice
The hon. Member puts his finger on an extremely important point. I have studied many cases in which farmers have been penalised because, as he said, they omitted to put a figure in a particular box or something like that. Although I have pushed back hard on this front, we are unfortunately constrained very much by the European Commission’s Court of Auditors, which is very robust. The disallowances are completely out of proportion. We are working with the Commission, and I have chased up these matters with it to try to get a more proportionate sense of penalty. Hopefully, we will then be able to move forward.
Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
One key issue repeatedly raised with me by farmers is cross-compliance and the heavy penalties they face for minor infringements that are of no material consequence whatever. Does the Minister share my view that these penalties are out of all proportion? Will he raise this issue with the Commission as a matter of urgency?
Mr Paice
Yes, I entirely share the view that these penalties are out of all proportion. I have raised this with the Commission and, more importantly, I and many other Ministers of Agriculture have raised it in the context of the review of the common agricultural policy, which has just commenced. We have firmly expressed to the Commission our view that the next system of CAP support must be simpler, both for individual farmers and for member states to implement.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
Having met Richard Macdonald, I am confident that he will undertake a thorough and comprehensive review of the regulatory burden on farmers. When he reports, will my hon. Friend ensure that he receives support from other Government Departments and that that these matters are discussed, if necessary, with the European Union as well?
Mr Paice
I can assure my hon. Friend that I am in close contact with the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk), and, as I said in answer to an earlier question, with the relevant Commissioners across Europe. We are determined that if this industry is to flourish and succeed in the face of increasing world demand for food over the next decades, it must be freed up from unnecessary burdens of regulation.
John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)
10. What representations she has received on her Department's plans for its project to plant 1 million trees in the next four years.
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman)
Thus far, DEFRA has received around 100 e-mails from local authorities and community groups seeking information on or expressing an interest in the big tree plant campaign and a small number of letters from other individuals and organisations.
John Robertson
How much of the money received through privatisation will be spent in the areas of planted trees? How much of it will be spent north of the border, particularly in Glasgow?
Mrs Spelman
With respect, the question is about the big tree plant campaign, a partnership campaign that DEFRA will support with £4 million of public money. The campaign is being run in conjunction with a large number of partners and charities, including Groundwork, Keep Britain Tidy, the Tree Council and the National Forest Company. In every sense, it is a big society campaign.
Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab)
Two hundred and fifty thousand a year sounds like a lot of trees, but not when compared with the estimated 250 million trees—1,000 times as many—owned by the Forestry Commission in England, much of which the Government are intent on selling off and putting at risk. Will the Secretary of State tell us what she will say to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, who is actively campaigning against proposals to dispose of a similar proportion of Forestry Commission land in Scotland—a sale of trees that Lib Dems have described as “hugely flawed” and as a “money-making scam”?
Mrs Spelman
Let me say a couple of things in response to that. With the 250,000 trees a year planted as part of the big tree plant campaign, the challenge is that the majority will be in urban areas, particularly in deprived communities, so significant plantings in those areas will benefit those communities. As for the Forestry Commission, I suggest that the hon. Gentleman, rather than reading the newspapers as a guide to Government policy, should adopt the better-informed approach of waiting for the launch of the consultation proposals, which I have discussed closely and successfully with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury.
Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)
11. What recent discussions her Department has had on reform of the common fisheries policy; and if she will make a statement.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
As UK fisheries Minister, I have had discussions with a range of organisations and people about common fisheries policy reform, including discussions with the EU Fisheries Commissioner and other member states’ Ministers during November’s EU Agriculture and Fisheries Council. I have also met representatives of the fishing industry—both the large-scale and under-10-metre sector—MEPs and non-governmental organisations. I plan to have further discussions in pressing our case for radical reform of the CFP.
Peter Aldous
I thank the Minister for that reply, and for meeting a delegation of Lowestoft fishermen last week. I wish him well in his negotiations at next week’s Council of Ministers meeting. The future of fishermen and communities all around Britain depends on a successful outcome. Will the Minister confirm that in the review of the CFP, his priorities will include a fair deal for the under-10-metre fleet and the elimination of discards?
Richard Benyon
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his good wishes for next week’s negotiations, and I confirm that the UK is committed to genuine fundamental reform—to achieving healthy fish stocks, a prosperous fishing industry and a healthy marine environment. Part of that agenda is to ensure that we have regionalised decision making and an end to the top-down failure of the current common fisheries policy, and that we give fishermen a stake in the long-term health of fish stocks. That involves those in the under-10-metre sector; I am deeply mindful of the problems that they have faced in recent years, and I want to give them and the communities that they support a long-term future under a reformed CFP.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
As I represent two fishing ports in Northern Ireland, may I ask the Minister what further progress has been made towards regionalisation?
Richard Benyon
I am grateful to the hon. Lady and to other Northern Ireland Members who have been forceful in putting the case for the fishing communities that they represent. I recognise that they, like many other areas of the country, are affected by an industry in crisis. Our immediate attempts will be to secure for them adequate fish stocks to exploit over the coming year. However, I put on record my determination that they should not continue to live from hand to mouth. As someone who has been in business, I do not know how fishermen can deal with a bank manager when they do not know what they will be able to achieve in three, four or five months’ time. I want to give them a longer-term future, in which they can be part of the solution, rather than being constantly browbeaten by an overbearing and multi-layered regulatory system.
Mr Speaker
I am extremely grateful to the Minister, but may I remind those on the Treasury Bench that there are a lot of questions to get through, and that a little economy is needed in their answers?
Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)
12. What recent steps her Department has taken to maintain the level of biodiversity.
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman)
We will act on agreements reached at the successful biodiversity conference in Nagoya through a new biodiversity strategy for England, which will be published alongside the natural environment White Paper in the spring.
Andrew Rosindell
Will the Secretary of State outline the Government’s policies on the protection of biodiversity in our 16 British overseas territories? In particular, will she tell us what the Government are doing to protect the biodiversity of the Henderson island, one of the Pitcairn Islands, where an appalling rat infestation has caused 25,000 chicks to be killed every year?
Mrs Spelman
I think that everyone in the House is well aware of my hon. Friend’s concern about, and interest in, the overseas territories. I am delighted to be able to tell him that while attending the biodiversity conference, and the day before, I was able to announce additional spending under the Darwin initiative and, specifically, help with the protection of the Henderson petrel.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
13. What representations she has received on the proposed provision of a super-dairy in Lincolnshire by Nocton Dairies; and if she will make a statement.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)
I have received numerous letters on this subject from animal welfare organisations, Members of Parliament and individual members of the public. I recently met a group of Members and others to discuss their concerns. However, I must emphasise that the proposal is for planning consent, on which I cannot comment.
Bob Blackman
Animal welfare organisations, dairy farmers and all who care about natural food in this country rightly fear that this is the thin end of a very thick wedge, with the potential for activities such as those that go on in California. What action will the Minister take to ensure that that does not happen?
Mr Paice
I readily understand that the idea of mega-dairies creates strong emotions, although I cannot talk about a specific example. I believe, however, that we should be led by the real evidence and the science, which is why DEFRA has commissioned a three-year study at the Scottish agricultural colleges of the issues surrounding mega-dairies. A separate study of the directly related subject of the genetics of high-yielding cows is also taking place. I promise the House that if the outcomes of those studies—we should have the first results towards the end of next year—precipitate the need for action, action will be taken.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
When I have raised the subject with the Minister in the past he has made it clear that this is a planning issue, but he has also said that he personally has no objections to mega-dairies. Could there not be a moratorium on the granting of planning applications for big schemes that are in the pipeline, such as Nocton’s, until the results of the reviews that he mentioned have been made public?
Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)
14. What recent representations she has received on provision of funding for permissive access routes under higher level stewardship schemes in rural areas.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
About 3,000 current agri-environment agreements support permissive access, contributing around 3% of the public rights of way network. As part of the spending review, we have looked very closely at how best to maximise the funds that we receive from the European Union for higher level stewardship. Funds will continue to be provided for permissive access under existing HLS agreements, and we will also continue to provide capital payments under new HLS agreements.
Dr Poulter
As the Minister will know, there are 129 higher level stewardship agreements in Suffolk. They help to provide an excellent link between rural and urban communities, and to interest young people in schools in issues relating to agriculture and food. Given the importance of such schemes in Suffolk, will the Minister agree to meet me, along with Suffolk farmers, to establish how we can develop the schemes further in the county?
Richard Benyon
I am always happy to meet my hon. Friend, and farmers in his constituency. We are keen to maximise the use of money from the rural development programme for England. For every pound that we put into biodiversity or environmental works through HLS, we receive £3 from Europe, whereas access is funded entirely through Government spending. That does not mean, however, that there is not an enormous amount that we can to do to encourage the kind of access to which my hon. Friend has referred. We will secure the capital spending, and we will make further provision to secure access in other parts of the country.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
The loss of primitive access from future HLS schemes will have a very detrimental effect on the improvement of schemes under the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000, and various sorts of stiles and benches that are erected in the countryside to provide access for people. How is the Minister going to resolve that, and ensure that the countryside remains open to the entire British population?
Richard Benyon
I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that people will be able to claim for items such as stiles because they are capital items, as are car parks and the provision of access for disabled people. Those claims can still be made, therefore. The hon. Gentleman is a very strong advocate of HLS, and he and many other Members were worried that we might not be able to protect it under the spending review. We have done, however: we are going to increase it by 83%, but we are focused on reversing the decline in biodiversity and helping environmental works on farms. That is why we have taken the decisions that we have.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
15. What assessment she has made of the effects of proposed changes to her Department’s flood defence budget on the level of insurance premiums for homes at risk from flooding.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
DEFRA is working closely with the insurance industry to maximise the availability of flood insurance cover. We are consulting on changes to the way in which Government funding is allocated to flood and coastal erosion risk management projects. That will help safeguard insurance terms by encouraging increased investment beyond levels that the national taxpayer alone can afford.
Diana Johnson
The insurance market in Hull has been closed since 2007, and unless people had insurance then, they will not be able to get it now. Moreover, for people who can access insurance, premiums have gone up hugely. What does the Minister have to say to my constituents, as even those who currently have insurance are now very concerned that they will not be able to continue to have it in the future?
Richard Benyon
The hon. Lady’s constituents, like mine, have suffered greatly from flooding in the past, and what she says is true: there are excess charges and premiums have risen. We have taken forward, from our very successful flood summit, two important working parties with the insurance industry—one on data sharing, so that information on where money has been spent is made available to insurers, and a second on working with the insurance industry so that following the post-2013 statement of principles, there will be an environment in which insurance is still available. The insurance industry will then be able to gear up for a new environment in which specialist brokers can start to help constituents such as the hon. Lady’s and mine.
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
Recognising the challenge of securing insurance in certain parts of the country, I recently met representatives of the Association of British Insurers, and they talked about building design and the fact that electric circuits are at the bottom of buildings rather than in the middle and higher. That is one of the primary reasons why people are out of their homes for months if not years, as opposed to merely needing replacement furniture and so forth. Will the Minister agree to meet the ABI to discuss such building design principles?
Richard Benyon
I have met, and do meet, the ABI, and we do talk about such matters. I need do no more than recommend one of the great legends, Mary Dhonau—[Hon. Members: “Maradona?”] No, Mary Dhonau. She runs the National Flood Forum, and her home has frequently been flooded. The last time she was flooded she made no claim because she had taken precisely the precautions that my hon. Friend mentions. I hope that more households will learn from her experience.
Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab)
There was a bit of confusion from the Secretary of State earlier about the figure of 145,000. The figures are in DEFRA’s 2009 annual report, and I will happily send the link to the Secretary of State’s office so that she can see the delay that the 27% cut has caused.
The Minister says he is consulting on new flood defence proposals. The new system would remove the Environment Agency’s role in deciding who gets flood defences, and communities would be expected to pay a flood tax in order to receive central Government funding. Will this new system not disadvantage people from poorer parts of the country who cannot afford a new flood tax?
Richard Benyon
Oh dear—another own goal, I am afraid. The hon. Lady really must read the consultation documents. She will then see, first, that that is one of Sir Michael Pitt’s recommendations, which she and her predecessor were very keen the new Government should continue to put into effect, and secondly, that payment for outcomes is not a flood tax. It is not compulsory; it is an additionality, and it provides clarity for communities that for too long have failed to get their schemes above the line. The hon. Lady’s point will be very unwelcome if that is her party’s future policy, on its blank sheet of paper.
Mary Creagh
One of the key recommendations of the Pitt review was that investment in flood spending should rise above inflation year on year. No matter what dodgy DEFRA maths the Minister tries to put before the House he cannot disguise a 27% cut in flood defence spending. We increased it by 38% over three years—that is the difference. That gave communities and the insurance industry certainty. He has increased the risk that the insurance industry could walk away from universal flood insurance after 2013. He has already mentioned speciality brokers; does he agree that we will need a new statement of principles in 2013 to make sure that flood insurance is universally available?
Richard Benyon
We will certainly need a new relationship with the ABI post-2013, but the hon. Lady must be careful with the numbers that she bandies around before the House. The right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) had spoken of 50% cuts in capital for the Department that she now shadows if Labour had been re-elected, and she cannot now decide that that was a pipe dream and was not mentioned. Of course this issue is important: it is about people’s homes and flooding. Some 5.2 million homes in this country are at some risk of flooding, and the Government have made this issue a priority. That is why we have protected this budget out of all proportion to other budgets in the difficult round that has been forced on us by the previous Government.
Mr Speaker
I remind the House that if we are to get down the Order Paper we need short questions and, from Front Benchers, short answers.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
T1. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman)
I commend the work of those who volunteered their services during the extreme weather, particularly our farmers. I am sure that hon. Members on both sides of the House will agree that they provided a valuable service to many communities—from clearing snow to transporting midwives. That is a great example of the big society.
Andrew Selous
Will my right hon. Friend give the House a rough idea of the cost of food imported into the country that we are able, and have the capacity, to grow?
Mrs Spelman
In 2009 the UK imported indigenous food—food that could be grown in season in the UK—with a total value of approximately £15 billion. Total imports of food, feed and drink in the same period were valued at £32.5 billion.
Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab)
The right hon. Lady’s colleague the Minister of State, who has responsibility for forestry, wrote to all MPs in October saying that he would consult the public on the sale of England’s forests before the end of the year. We now hear that he has postponed that consultation until the new year—yet in a parliamentary answer to me he revealed that he is busy meeting forestry companies on this very issue. When will the public get their say on the future of England’s forests?
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice)
The hon. Lady is getting a bit carried away. The consultation will start in January, and it is perfectly reasonable for us to discuss with experts in the field the possible implications of all the things that we are thinking of doing before we firm up the ideas that we put to the public for consultation. The hon. Lady must be extremely careful on this subject, because we have just discovered that the previous Labour Government sold 12,000 hectares of forest without any form of sustainable protection for any of it.
Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)
T2. Essex landowners and farmers contribute £1 million annually to the Environment Agency for sea defence and maintenance work, and they have provided information for the Essex shoreline management plan, but they have not been able to access the committees that have made the decisions and finalised that plan. Will the Minister ensure that in future my local farmers will have access to those committees and be fully integrated in the decision making? Will he also pledge to meet representatives in my constituency?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
I am very concerned by what my hon. Friend says. I know that the Environment Agency contributed £25,000 to the “Managing Coastal Change” project led by the National Farmers Union and the Country Land and Business Association. If they are not being listened to as part of the shoreline management process, they should be. I will take every step to ensure that happens.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
T6. I am a keen hill walker, but the Government are selling off England’s forests and nature reserves. Why are they selling off those natural assets for a quick buck without getting strong assurances on public rights of way?
Mr Paice
The hon. Gentleman should have listened to earlier answers. We have not announced that we are selling a single hectare yet. [Hon. Members: “Yes, you have!”] We are going out to consultation on that. The Government whom the hon. Gentleman supported, even if he was not a Member then, sold off 12,000 hectares of forest without protecting the access that he talks about. We will make sure—and it will be in the consultation—that whatever we do protects all public benefits.
Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)
T3. Green spaces and trees are vital in our cities, and I am fortunate that my constituency has many beautiful parks, including Dukes meadows, Gunnersbury park, Osterley park, Boston Manor park, Syon park and Hounslow heath. Can my right hon. Friend tell me what plans the Department has to plant many more trees across the city of London?
Mrs Spelman
I invite my hon. Friend, and encourage her constituents, to participate in the big tree plant campaign, which was launched at the beginning of December and will continue, and for which there are publicly available funds. We will do this in partnership with a number of charities, and I imagine that they have members in her constituency. In participating, she will demonstrate the effectiveness of this big society approach.
Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)
T7. This Con-Dem Government propose to abolish the Agricultural Wages Board—a proposal that even Mrs Thatcher refused to implement. The Prime Minister suggests that because of the minimum wage the AWB is just a quango, but that “quango” covers workers’ wages, holidays, sick pay, overtime, standby arrangements and even bereavement leave. Does the Secretary of State agree that it is just a quango?
Mr Paice
The hon. Gentleman should be aware that until the Warwick agreement, when the trade unions forced the Labour party to back down, it was Labour party policy to abolish the Agricultural Wages Board. I should make the point that agriculture has changed dramatically in the 60 years since the board came into being. The previous Government did not reinstate any of the other wages boards when they had the chance to do so. Instead they instigated the Low Pay Commission, and we believe that that is the right body to manage agricultural wages, as it does everybody else’s wages.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
T4. Following the successful Nagoya conference on biodiversity and against the background of the current very important climate change conference in Cancun, can the Secretary of State tell us how she intends to take forward the protection of biodiversity, both in this country and internationally?
Mrs Spelman
As I said in response to an earlier question, the new biodiversity strategy for England will be published alongside the natural environment White Paper in the spring, to which we have had an astonishingly high number of contributions from the public: there have been in excess of 15,000.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
T10. Given the Minister’s acknowledgement on Second Reading of the Sustainable Livestock Bill of the serious nature of the deforestation caused by the production of soy for livestock feed, what position will the Government take on reform of the common agricultural policy to reduce UK imports of soy?
Mr Paice
The hon. Gentleman rightly raises an important issue. We want to reduce our dependency on imported protein, but not if that means, in the short term, destroying our domestic livestock industry only to have to import product fed on soya from the very sources we are trying to protect. On the CAP, it is very early days because the Commission has only just published its early proposals. However, I can assure him that agricultural sustainability, in the dramatically changing circumstances foreseen over the next 40 years, is right at the heart of our position. We want to make sure not only that we have money for research to find alternatives to imported soya, but that we can continue to provide for our domestic needs and those elsewhere.
Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con)
T5. Does the Secretary of State agree that monitoring agencies such as the Environment Agency need sharper teeth, so that they can step in more forcefully when pollution rises to unacceptable levels, particularly in residential areas such as Horn lane in Acton?
Richard Benyon
I thought that this subject might come up, because my hon. Friend has a debate on it next week, when I look forward to giving her a more detailed reply. The simple answer is yes, we have to make this clearer. There are no secrets here; the data should be available to local communities and I will do everything I can to support her constituents in this regard.
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
My constituent, Lisa Boughton, who lives in Catcliffe, which was flooded in 2007, has this year—not in 2008 or 2009—suddenly been faced by Aviva with a 79% hike in her insurance premium. Will the Department call in Aviva to say that that is an intolerable burden to put on a person of limited means?
Richard Benyon
I entirely understand that, because it is an experience that many hon. Members around the country have had. This is why we have to engage with the ABI and have an arrangement that continues after 2013. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that we are working hard with the ABI to try to ensure that the concerns that he has raised are understood.
Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con)
T8. The Secretary of State knows that the Thames tideway tunnel scheme has already seen its costs double from £1.8 billion to £3.6 billion, and that it will cause massive construction disruption along the Thames and add £40 per annum to Thames Water customers’ water bills. Can the Minister assure me that the Government have tried to find the best value-for-money solution to sewage discharge in the Thames?
Richard Benyon
I can assure my hon. Friend that we continue to challenge the cost assumptions behind that scheme. It is a massive undertaking, and I can see that it will fall on Thames Water’s charge payers, so we want to ensure that if it goes ahead, it goes ahead because it has to, and that the work is done at the best possible price.
Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab)
In 2003 my private Member’s Bill became the Household Waste Recycling Act, obliging local authorities to introduce doorstep recycling. Local authorities have until the 31st of this month to comply, and I am glad to say that 94% are in compliance. What does the Minister intend to do about the remaining 6%?
Richard Benyon
The right hon. Lady is a great expert in that field, and I pay tribute to her on that issue. It is an absolute priority for our Department, and it is being taken forward as part of the waste review, not only to ensure that the difficult wins are achieved, but to consider how we can continue to encourage local authorities to deal with areas where, on recycling, there is still a long way to go.
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
T9. At meetings throughout the dales in recent weeks, constituents have complained that the Yorkshire Dales national park authority is distant and aloof. How will the Minister ensure that in future national park authorities will be more thoughtful towards the communities they seek to represent?
Richard Benyon
I am very pleased with the response so far to our review of national park governance. We like national parks and want to support them, but the Government’s firm view at this point is that we should review how they are governed to ensure that they are accountable to local people, and that local people can take part in their decision-making processes. That is the purpose of our review, and I hope that my hon. Friend’s constituents are taking part in it.
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
Given the huge importance of provenance and traceability in agriculture, is it not time to consider compulsory country of origin food labelling?
Mr Paice
I am delighted to tell the hon. Gentleman, and to remind the House, that two weeks ago the food industry produced a voluntary set of principles to which all major retailers and respective organisations have signed up. The code involves making clear the country of origin of meat, meat products and mainstream dairy products. Alongside that, we have the European negotiations in which the prospect of mandatory labelling is also being considered.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
Much organic matter still finds its way to landfill, where it is not only a hazard but a great waste of sustainable energy. What progress has the Department made in promoting anaerobic digestion as a good way of dealing with such waste?
Richard Benyon
Anaerobic digestion offers not just great potential for our society, which is concerned about diverting food waste up the waste hierarchy and away from landfill, but opportunities for communities, farmers and farming businesses to develop schemes that can deal with waste and feed into our energy system. So we are certainly considering that as part of the waste review, which will be announced in early spring. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will take close notice of it.
Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)
May I implore the Minister, when he attends next week’s fisheries discussions in Brussels, to raise with his French and Italian counterparts the issue of the continued fishing of bluefin tuna? What can he do to ensure that we protect that very endangered species?
Richard Benyon
I hope the hon. Gentleman will be pleased to hear that we have continued the very strong line that his party, when it was in government, took on bluefin tuna. I am very keen to work with him, because he has great expertise in that field, and I can assure him that we raise the issue frequently at every level to ensure that we continue to push towards the protection of that iconic species.
Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
The Department is aware of the importance of the port of Falmouth’s plans to create new jobs. When will its application for marine consents be decided?
Richard Benyon
I know that that issue is of massive importance to my hon. Friend and her constituents. The decision is imminent; I shall involve her at the earliest stage, and we will work from there. I absolutely understand the importance that the application has for local jobs.
Mr Speaker
Order. I am sorry to disappoint colleagues, but we must move on.
Petition
Mr Speaker
Order. Before the hon. Lady presents her petition, as usual in these circumstances I appeal to hon. and right hon. Members who are leaving the Chamber to do so quickly and quietly, affording the same courtesy to the hon. Lady that they would wish to be extended to themselves in her situation.
Valerie Vaz
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
The petition is from the users of bus service 639, Walsall to Wednesbury. The petitioners are concerned about the way the 639 bus has been taken out of service from the Kings Hill area, Walsall. They believe that this action was taken without consulting the people who live in the Kings Hill area. They have noted that the reason given was lack of use. The petitioners believe that this was not the case, and that it was due to the failings of West Midlands Travel (Walsall), as the bus often did not turn up and was mostly late when it did. They are concerned that there is now not a service to the Manor hospital. They therefore request that the House of Commons urge the Government to call on National Express West Midlands and Centro to take all possible steps to put this problem right and ensure that the 639 bus service is reinstated. There are 119 signatories to the petition in similar terms.
The petition states:
The Petition of users of Bus Service 639, Walsall to Wednesbury,
Declares that the Petitioners are concerned at the way the 639 bus has been taken out of service from the Kings Hill area; notes that the Petitioners believe that this action was taken without consultation of the people who live in the Kings Hill area; notes that the reason given was lack of use, but that the Petitioners believe this was not the case and that it was lack and incompetence of West Midlands Travel (Walsall), as the bus often did not turn up and was mostly late when it did; further notes that there is not now a service to the Manor Hospital.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to call on National Express West Midlands and Centro to take all possible steps to put this problem right and ensure that the 639 bus service is reinstated.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
[P000870]
Speaker’s Statement
Mr Speaker
I have received a report from the Tellers in the Aye Lobby in the Division at 7.18 pm last night on deferred Divisions—the hon. Members for Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge) and for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds). The number of Aye votes was erroneously reported as 320, instead of 310. I will direct the Clerk to correct the numbers in the Journal accordingly: Ayes 310, Noes 216.
Business of the House
(14 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
Will the Leader of the House give us the forthcoming business?
The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Young)
The business for the week commencing 13 December will be:
Monday 13 December—Second Reading of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill.
Tuesday 14 December—Consideration of Lords amendments to the Superannuation Bill, followed by remaining stages of the Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Bill [Lords], followed by consideration of Lords amendments to the Identity Documents Bill.
Wednesday 15 December—Consideration of an allocation of time motion, followed by all stages of the Loans to Ireland Bill, followed by a motion to approve the ninth report 2010-11 from the Standards and Privileges Committee.
Thursday 16 December—Motion relating to park homes, followed by a motion on the work of the Public Accounts Committee. The subjects for both debates were nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.
The provisional business for the week commencing 20 December will include:
Monday 20 December—General debate on firearms control.
Tuesday 21 December—Pre-recess Adjournment debate, the format of which has been specified by the Backbench Business Committee.
I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for 13 and 20 January 2011 will be:
Thursday 13 January—A debate on the impact of the comprehensive spending review on the Department of Health.
Thursday 20 January—A general debate on anti-Semitism.
Hilary Benn
I am grateful to the Leader of the House for his statement. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us when we can expect the localism Bill to be introduced? Two weeks ago, he said it would appear “shortly”. On the same day, the Minister for decentralisation, the right hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), said it would be published “imminently”. Last week, the Leader of the House said it would appear “very shortly”. However, having searched high and low for this shy and retiring Bill, I can find no sign of it. In a week that has been full of difficulty for the Government, is this Bill yet another little local difficulty that they have not been able to resolve?
May we have a statement on press reports published this week that impostors have been seeking to gain access to the parliamentary estate? It is now clear that a number of individuals seeking jobs here have claimed to be die-hard opponents of lifting the cap on tuition fees, but have turned out to be the very opposite of what they said they were. What can the Leader of the House do to protect us from these potential double agents?
Has the Leader of the House made any progress on getting the Prime Minister to make his much anticipated apology to head teachers and school sports co-ordinators for his disgraceful attack on what they do? When will the heavily signalled U-turn arrive, or is it stuck in a queue behind the localism Bill?
Talking about trust in politics, can we have a debate on the subject? I ask because it is not just the Deputy Prime Minister who has been breaking his promises in recent weeks; it has been the Prime Minister, too—on VAT, child benefit, 3,000 more midwives, no spending cuts to front-line services, the knife crime pledge and education maintenance allowances. On 6 January, at a Cameron Direct event, the Prime Minister said in answer to a question on EMAs that
“we don’t have any plans to get rid of them.”
Two months later, on 2 March, the Education Secretary was even clearer:
“Ed Balls keeps saying that we are committed to scrapping the EMA. I have never said this. We won’t.”
What are our young people, many of whom are watching our proceedings today, to make of such behaviour? Did the Prime Minister and the Education Secretary believe what they were saying or not? Either way, it is no wonder that so many young people think, “Well, if that’s the new politics, you can forget it.”
In case the Liberal Democrats think that they can tell us—if they are courageous enough to put their heads above the parapet today—that the Government’s tuition fee proposals will increase social mobility, may we have a statement confirming that scrapping EMAs will make it more difficult for young people from low-income backgrounds even to get to the starting gate of higher education? To make matters worse, the coalition is also destroying the Aimhigher programme, which is all about social mobility.
Turning to this afternoon’s debate, even with a 6-minute limit on speeches, very many Members will not get the chance to represent their constituents today. For a long time now, we have been told that there will be no up-front fees. We have been told that all students will pay back at the same rate according to how much they earn. This week, the Business Secretary and the Deputy Prime Minister told their party that the proposals will not put anyone off going to university. If that is the case, can we have a statement on why the Government are proposing that some students from the least well-off households will not have to pay fees in their first year? Either the Government believe what they have been saying—in which case, why make this proposal?—or they have finally accepted what we have been saying about students being put off, in which case their whole argument collapses. We need an answer.
Is it any wonder that thousands of young people are now standing outside Parliament demanding a say on their future, while MPs from both Government parties are scurrying around hiding from them? They were promised a fair system for their higher education, only to discover that this coalition Government, with the support of Liberal Democrats, is about to let them down—and they will not forget it.
Sir George Young
I said last week that the gestation period for the localism Bill has been a little longer than anticipated. It is now being delivered at high speed to the parliamentary birth centre by the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government. As I said last week, I hope that it will be before the House well before Christmas.
On the second issue, the right hon. Gentleman bangs on about the position of the Liberal Democrats on tuition fees, but the Liberal Democrats got their Front Benchers behind a policy on this before the Labour party did. They got themselves organised on Tuesday, but it was not until yesterday that the shadow Chancellor claimed in an article in The Times that there was
“a strong case for a graduate tax”.
I have to say that it is he who is a member of the coalition parties when it comes to tuition fees and funding higher education.
The Government will be delivering school sports, but in a different way from the previous Government; instead of having a centralised PE and sports strategy, we want to redeploy resources and people, putting a new emphasis on competitive sport. In answer to the right hon. Gentleman’s specific question, we will be announcing how we will spend the money we have allocated for school sport in due course.
On the education maintenance allowance, we are committed to ensuring that every young person remains in education and training until they are 18. Evidence shows that about 90% of EMA spending goes to students who would have stayed in education anyway. There was an enormous amount of dead-weight. We are replacing the EMA with targeted support for those who face genuine financial barriers to participation.
As for the time allowed for the debate, I think that the right hon. Gentleman is losing his touch. Last Thursday, when I announced the debate, his only question was on when we would have sight of the text on the Government’s proposals. That small spark of interest developed into the conflagration that we saw last night. A business of the House motion was tabled on Friday last week. He could have amended that motion, but the Opposition did not get around to amending it until the debate was well under way and it was far too late. On one of the key issues facing this Parliament, the shadow Leader of the House has been caught asleep at the wheel.
On the other issues that the right hon. Gentleman addressed, those will be the subject of the debate that is about to take place.
Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)
May I ask the Leader of the House to find time for a debate on expanding cadet schemes so that young people can do cadet service not only with the police, the Army, the Navy and the services, but with other uniformed services such as the coastguard? That would greatly benefit young people and give such services the opportunity to contribute to the big society idea in a positive and meaningful way.
Sir George Young
I can think of no bigger supporter of the big society than my hon. Friend. He has proposed a genuinely helpful and innovative idea. I will share with ministerial colleagues the idea of expanding the cadet service to give young people the opportunity to gain experience in the professions and careers that he has mentioned. I will pursue his suggestion with vigour.
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
Will the Leader of the House find an opportunity for a debate on bank lending so that I can articulate the concerns of the managing director and owner of the excellent Talgarth Bakery, which I recommend to the Leader of the House? The owner managed to secure funding from the Welsh Assembly Government to purchase a unit of property next door to his business, so that he could expand his work force and his small business. However, Barclays bank asked him for a 35% deposit that he could not secure. He has therefore had to turn down that opportunity for expansion. That is a common tale of small and medium-sized companies not being able to access finance. Will the Leader of the House find time for a debate in Government time?
Sir George Young
That is a long way for me to go to buy my bread, but I take note of the excellent quality of the produce in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. I hope that other banks that are listening take the opportunity to pick up new custom by offering the facilities that were denied by the firm’s existing bank. I hope that that leads to the resources that the company needs being forthcoming. I will, of course, raise with ministerial colleagues the general issue of bank lending, because that was a condition of the support that the previous Government gave.
Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con)
May we have a debate on the future of the horse racing levy, which, as my right hon. Friend well knows, is the mechanism by which a contribution is made to the racing industry by the gambling industry and those who place bets? The levy is in desperate need of modernisation, and I think that many hon. Members would have an interest in such a debate.
Sir George Young
Indeed, the matter is of great interest to the right hon. Member for North West Hampshire, who has a number of racing stables in his constituency. I am unable to provide an immediate debate in Government time, but the Chair of the Backbench Business Committee is in her place and will have noted the bid. It might be the subject of an Adjournment debate in Westminster Hall or in the House.
Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)
May we have an urgent debate on the announcement that is buried on page 73 of today’s overview of draft legislation for the Finance Bill, which suggests that rather than raising £3.5 billion from the banking levy, the Government will raise only £2.5 billion? On a day when they are telling university teaching professionals and students that some of the cuts are unavoidable, is it not a scandal that they are climbing down on the bank levy?
Sir George Young
The Government are not climbing down on the bank levy. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has made it absolutely clear that he wants to extract the maximum possible resources from the banks. The amount that we will collect is a lot more than the previous Government had planned.
Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con)
May I ask for a statement, or for a clarification from the Leader of the House, on a clause in the coalition agreement, which states:
“We will…work to limit the application of the Working Time Directive in the United Kingdom”?
Is that merely an aspiration, or will the Government insist that the directive is disapplied in the UK in return for our agreement to an EU treaty revision?
Sir George Young
My hon. Friend is right to remind the House that we are committed in the coalition agreement to limit the application of the working time directive in the UK. That means that we would like to find a solution to the problems caused by the SiMAP and Jaeger judgments. It also means that our position on the retention of the opt-out will be absolutely firm. Any attempt to trade off between a solution to those cases and the opt-out will lead to the same stand-off as in the last negotiations.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
Given that the Government’s national security strategy has identified terrorism as the biggest threat that we now face, and in the light of recent events, will the Leader of the House grant a debate on his Government’s plans to cut counter-terrorism policing by 10% over the next four years?
Sir George Young
The business next week includes a debate on terrorist asset freezing, and the hon. Gentleman might have an opportunity at that time to raise the issue that he has just touched on.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
In a recent parliamentary answer, the Government confirmed that, to meet our targets on renewable energy, they will add 26% to the average annual domestic electricity bill and a whopping £246,000 to the average medium-sized non-domestic user’s bill. Given that the Government are trying to create economic growth and tackle fuel poverty, may we have a debate on this, so that the public can understand how damaging these policies are, and that they represent a futile attempt to tackle global warming, which we have not even had for the past 15 years?
Sir George Young
I understand the concern expressed by my hon. Friend, but the Government remain committed to their carbon reduction targets. In the near future, we will be debating the Energy Bill, which contains a number of measures designed to reduce the cost of energy, which my hon. Friend is rightly worried about, and he might have an opportunity during the passage of that Bill to develop his arguments.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
Will the Leader of the House make provision on Monday for plenty of time for personal statements by hon. Members? There is a rumour that some Liberal Democrats are planning to abstain this afternoon by voting in both Lobbies. “Erskine May” says:
“The Speaker has deprecated as ‘unparliamentary’ the practice of voting in both lobbies as a demonstration of a ‘third’ position.”
It also states that Members who had done so mistakenly would be allowed, on the following day, to explain in a personal statement which Lobby they had intended to be in.
Sir George Young
I do not think that that is a matter for the Leader of the House.
Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)
Members might not be aware that, last Thursday, a piece of legislation was passed in the House which grants the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards the power to investigate any MP he wishes, if he thinks fit, without having received a prior complaint. This would of course result in the headline the following day, “Parliamentary sleaze watchdog investigates MP”. Will the Leader of the House please tell us why he saw fit to grant such powers to someone who is unelected and probably has the leakiest office in Westminster, and who also has close relations with the media?
Sir George Young
It was not I who granted those powers. The House decided, without Division, to approve the unanimous report of the Standards and Privileges Committee, which carried the resolution to which my hon. Friend refers.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
A constituent of mine who served in Her Majesty’s armed forces was hooded and beaten in a mock interrogation while serving in the Army. He suffered psychological damage, turned to alcohol and has since had his military pension reduced to 6%. When will we have an opportunity to debate the treatment of military veterans who have served so well in our armed forces?
Sir George Young
In the relatively near future, we will be debating the Armed Forces Bill, which might provide an opportunity to raise such issues. I am very sorry to hear what happened to the hon. Gentleman’s constituent, and I will draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence to the incidents that he has just described.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
Many parents in my constituency—not least my constituency caseworker—have experienced immense frustration in dealing with the apparently dysfunctional Child Support Agency. May we have a debate in the not too distant future on the future of the agency?
Sir George Young
My hon. Friend is not unique in having a regular dialogue with the CSA on behalf of his constituents, and I share and understand his concern. He will know that, following the public bodies reform announcement on 14 October, the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission will be abolished as a non-departmental public body, and instead become an Executive agency of the Department for Work and Pensions. It is our intention that all functions of the commission will be moved to the Executive agency. I hope that that will result in an improvement in the performance of that body.
John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)
May we have a debate on the education maintenance allowance? The Government keep telling us about a report which states that 90% of people say that they do not need EMAs at all, yet not a single student or member of a student’s family was asked to take part in the report. The only people who were asked to take part were sixth-formers, and I suggest that that report simply does not hold water. The Leader of the House should call a debate on that subject.
Sir George Young
I repeat what I said a few moments ago: the evidence shows that around 90% of EMA spending goes to students who would have stayed in education anyway. No Government confronted with that sort of dead-weight expenditure can ignore it, and we will be saving some £0.5 billion by moving to targeted support to help those who face financial barriers to participation.
Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)
Will the Leader of the House grant us a debate on the UK travellers who are still seeking compensation for flights cancelled during April’s volcanic ash cloud? Mr and Mrs Ashworth from Colne in my constituency have now been seeking compensation from Ryanair for more than seven months. They have sent in the same forms and provided evidence of their entitlement several times, and done everything that has been asked of them, yet Ryanair is still failing to honour its responsibility, leaving my constituents out of pocket.
Sir George Young
I am very sorry to hear of Mr and Mrs Ashworth’s experience, but they are fortunate to have a Member of Parliament such as my hon. Friend to pursue their case. If Ryanair is failing to respond to their claim, the next step is to talk to the complaint handler for the EU state in which the event occurred. In most cases, that is the national aviation regulator, and in the UK, it is the Civil Aviation Authority.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
If those who are protesting peacefully and lawfully today are kettled by the police so that they are unable to use even basic facilities for a long time, may I tell the Leader of the House that we will expect a statement from the Home Secretary after the vote today to give the House an explanation of what has occurred? May I also just mention—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
No, we simply do not have time, and I think that the hon. Gentleman has got his point across.
Sir George Young
I am not going to get involved in the operational responsibilities of the Metropolitan police. I am sure that they will discharge their responsibilities to the public sensibly today, and keep public order outside Parliament.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Has my right hon. Friend seen my early-day motions 520, 598 and 1,160?
[That this House welcomes the statement by the right hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs that there is a ‘huge untapped potential' for recruiting more special constables in the future; notes that the number of specials in Essex has doubled over the past four years to nearly 700 officers; further notes the public service of special constables, who are dedicated volunteers, often working in hazardous conditions; believes that transforming the Special Constabulary into a Territorial Army-type force would enable specials to cover more policing duties and would offer excellent value for money, sustaining frontline operational services; further believes that specials are a genuinely local force, like Neighbourhood Watch, who offer an invaluable source of community intelligence; and therefore calls upon the Government to refocus its resources to incentivise special constables, so that they can work more hours and develop professionally.]
Will my right hon. Friend make a statement on what steps the Government are taking to support special constables, and will he support my planned amendment to the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill that would give local authorities the power to give special constables a discount on their council tax?
Sir George Young
I endorse my hon. Friend’s support for special constables. As I announced a few moments ago, we are debating the Second Reading of the police Bill on Monday, and if he were lucky enough to serve on the Public Bill Committee, he would have an opportunity to table his amendment to exempt special constables from paying council tax. I should add that powers already exist to allow police authorities, with the support of the chief constable, to pay an allowance to some or all special constables in their area, and the Government also want to do what they can to increase the number of special constables.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
My constituents at Hull York medical school are concerned that the House of Commons has not had an opportunity to debate fees and medical education. As time will be so short this afternoon in the debate on raising the cap on tuition fees, will the Government allow a debate on that particular issue so that the House can effectively scrutinise the important issue of training our doctors for the future?
Sir George Young
The hon. Lady is right to say that the training of our doctors for the future is important. The Government have no plans for such a debate, but I refer her to the Chair of the Backbench Business Committee, as this might be a suitable candidate for one of her debates.
David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend recall that, in the 2001 Parliament, the House voted to rise at 7 o’clock on Wednesdays, yet last night we rose at 11 minutes past midnight after debating a motion that was proposed at very short notice and at great inconvenience to many Members? Does he think that that is a satisfactory situation, particularly when the shadow Leader of the House spoke for more than two hours in what was apparently a filibuster?
Sir George Young
To one extent, we were better off having that debate yesterday; otherwise, we would have had it on Tuesday at 10.30 pm, and it would have gone on until even later. We do not plan to have debates after the moment of interruption on a regular basis but, from time to time, it is necessary to ensure that the business of the House is properly discharged.
Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab)
On school sport, the Prime Minister said in answer to a question I asked last week that there would be a change of heart and that he would examine the matter. We had a debate in which there was wholehearted support from all parties for a change of mind. The redundancy notices are starting to go out to school sports co-ordinators. May we have a decision on what will happen?
Sir George Young
As I said a few moments ago—I think in response to the shadow Leader of the House—the old system cost too much and was too bureaucratic. We will announce how we will spend the money that we have allocated for school sport in due course.
Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con)
May I ask the Leader of the House to make time for a debate on careers advice in school? Although I welcome the coalition’s plans to introduce an all-age service, we need to ensure universal, specialist careers advice for all our young children, that starts in schools from a very young age and does not impose plans from the top down. I believe that all hon. Members should debate that before any final decisions on provision are implemented.
Sir George Young
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. With the establishment of an all-age careers service by April 2012, we intend to restore a focus on specialist expertise and careers guidance for young people, based on independence and professionalism. I regret that the single focus on careers guidance has been lost in recent years, and we hope to put that right. If we have time for a debate on the matter, I hope that the Back-Bench business committee can allocate one.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
Will the Leader of the House enlighten us about why he has decided to pull stumps half-an-hour early this evening, because he did not do so last night? Instead of criticising the Opposition, will he tell us why he has chosen to restrict debate by taking that half-an-hour off when so many Members want to speak?
Sir George Young
We followed the precedent of the previous Government, who, in a similar debate, drew stumps at 5 o’clock.
Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)
May we have a debate in Government time on propriety in the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority? My right hon. Friend will know, because three hon. Members, including me and the very experienced right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), have advised him of the matter, that it is alleged that Anne Power, the communications official at IPSA, is touting so-called juicy stories around the Lobby to friendly journalists. That accusation has been made on several occasions. Will my right hon. Friend take the opportunity to speak to the chief executive of IPSA? At the very least, the individual concerned is breaching the Data Protection Act. If true, the position is completely unacceptable and intolerable.
Sir George Young
If that activity took place, it is indeed unacceptable. I think that I am right to say that a question was tabled to my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) on the specific issue, and an answer was provided either yesterday or today, stating that IPSA denies that any such contact took place.
Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Throughout the past week, towns in my constituency and throughout central Scotland have resembled a scene from Armageddon: children have not been able to get home from school and have had to stay there overnight; students have had to stay in colleges; lorries have been abandoned; people have been stuck in cars for 14 hours; there have been fuel and food shortages, and now the Army is on the streets trying to clear the ice. Will the Leader of the House grant time for a debate or a ministerial statement on the Government’s response to the inclement weather, which we used to say happened now and again, yet now comes every year? Things need to change in the United Kingdom; we need to respond far better and far more quickly. Will the right hon. Gentleman grant time for a debate?
Sir George Young
There are real difficulties, which we have all seen on our television screens, in Scotland. Most of the responsibility for addressing them has been devolved to the Scottish Parliament. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said yesterday, any support that the Westminster Parliament can extend to Scotland will be given. However, I doubt whether there is time for a debate between now and the Christmas recess.
Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con)
Last week, the Financial Times investigated the EU structural funds for poorer regions. It found £500 million paid out in error and £92 million of suspected fraud last year alone. Mercifully, only 10% of the funds have been paid out. May we have a statement and a debate on the action that is being taken to whip OLAF, the EU’s anti-fraud body, into shape and prevent the remaining £260 billion from being squandered?
Sir George Young
The whole House will deplore any waste of funds. Of course, it is right that EU structural funds should be put to the use for which they are designed. I am happy to say that the UK has above average implementation of the structural and cohesion funds, and the UK programmes are on track to meet their targets. I cannot comment on the programmes of other member states, but I will draw the Foreign Secretary’s attention to my hon. Friend’s general point about the lack of accountability in part of the budget.
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
On 16 June, in his speech to the Hansard Society, the Leader of the House said that
“it has simply become too easy for the Government to sideline Parliament; to push Bills through without adequate scrutiny; and to see the House more as a rubber-stamp than a proper check on executive authority”.
He also said that his Government believe that a strong Parliament leads to a better Government. How does he square his belief in a strong Parliament with the Government’s shameful truncating of the debate on their proposals on tuition fees?
Sir George Young
I have to say to the hon. Lady, who was Deputy Leader of the House, that we could have done what the previous Government did and allocated five hours for tuition fees, including the business motion. Any time spent on the business motion would have come out of that five hours. The previous Government did that, but we have more respect for Parliament than to do that on this issue.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
The main problem with common sense is that it is not always as common as we would like. This week, it has been reported that farmers in Suffolk have not been allowed to clear snow from the highways because their agricultural vehicles are running on red diesel, which does not attract full road fuel duty. Will the Leader of the House advise on how we can get an immediate derogation for farmers involved in essential snow clearing? What can we do to ensure that the ridiculous situation does not happen again with the next snowfall and the next national emergency?
Sir George Young
It would be absurd to penalise or arrest farmers for clearing snow with tractors that use red diesel. I hope that common sense will prevail, but I will draw my hon. Friend’s remarks to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to ascertain whether, if a derogation is necessary, one might be issued.
Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)
May we have an early debate on the fashionable, right-wing notion of the nudge? In particular, may we have a discussion about the impact of the nudge on students and young people in persuading them not to go to the best universities because of the extortionate fees that the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives are introducing?
Sir George Young
A nudge is better than a nanny or, indeed, an Act of Parliament. It may be that the hon. Gentleman wants to intervene in the debate later, but, in the fear that he might not be called, has made his intervention early. I will draw his remarks to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills.
Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con)
May we have a debate about the lobbying activities of former Ministers in the previous Government? My right hon. Friend will have seen today’s report from the Standards and Privileges Committee, which recommends that Geoff Hoon be banned for five years and Stephen Byers for two years from holding a parliamentary pass for what it calls a particularly serious breach of the code of conduct. What can we do to ensure that there is no repetition of that Labour sleaze in future?
Sir George Young
I have announced that there will be a debate on that report on Wednesday evening, when the House will have an opportunity to decide whether it wants to enforce the sanctions that are recommended in it. I very much hope that it will act as a salutary lesson to anybody who is thinking of repeating the offences that were committed in those cases.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
Two weeks ago, the Leader of the House was courteous enough to agree that a debate, not in Government time, on war crimes in Sri Lanka might be important for the House to hold. That was before it was made clear that the Secretary of State for Defence is planning to visit Sri Lanka before Christmas. Will the Leader of the House clarify whether that is a private or an official visit? If it is the latter, could we ensure that a debate takes place in Government time on support for war crimes?
Sir George Young
It was a private visit. It is open to the hon. Gentleman, as it is to all hon. Members, to apply for a debate in the pre-Christmas Adjournment debate by doing so before 4 o’clock on Monday. That would be a suitable opportunity for holding a debate on war crimes.
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend find time for Ministers to make a detailed statement about the announcement by the CBI lobby group that 25% of manufacturers report greater than normal exports this month, which is the best survey showing since 1995? Does not that show that the Government’s economic strategy is bearing fruit? The House should know about it.
Sir George Young
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Manufacturing has a vital contribution to make to exports and to reducing the high unemployment that the Government inherited. The latest CBI monthly industrial trends survey suggests that manufacturers expect output growth in the sector to accelerate in the next three months, and the CBI’s output expectations index rose to plus 13 in December from plus four in November. That is encouraging, and indeed signals that the Government’s economic policies are working.
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
Tomorrow in Oslo at the Nobel peace prize ceremony, there will be an empty chair, because Liu Xiaobo, who should be there, is rotting in a Communist prison. Nevertheless, his spirit will be there representing all the best in humankind. Can the Leader of the House get the Prime Minister or Foreign Secretary to make a statement on why they have said not one public word about Liu Xiaobo? Mrs Thatcher raised Sakharov and Lech Walesa, but the current Government are cowardly and utterly spineless in raising the case of Liu Xiaobo. Will a Minister go to the ceremony tomorrow so that Britain is represented?
Sir George Young
It is deplorable that the winner of the prize is unable to attend the ceremony, and I deplore the loss of liberty involved. Foreign Office questions are next Tuesday, when the right hon. Gentleman will have an opportunity to raise that matter, but I can tell him that it was raised when my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary recently visited China.
Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)
Will the Leader of the House grant a debate on the appropriateness of Royal Mail stopping the delivery of mail when there is snow on the ground? In large parts of my constituency, no mail has been delivered for about seven days because Royal Mail feels that it would be inappropriate for postmen and postwomen to go out in case they slip, and small businesses are suffering.
Sir George Young
I am very sorry about that loss of service in my hon. Friend’s constituency. I hope that the health and safety measures to which she refers will be fair, balanced and proportionate. I understand that Royal Mail has an agreed policy with the unions whereby they conduct a walk-risk assessment process for the postal round—it is referred to as a “walk”. I will raise the issue that she raises with the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), to see whether he has a role to play in restoring the service in her constituency.
Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)
The citizens advice bureau in Wolverhampton provides highly valued advice and services to my constituents, including, thanks to the financial inclusion fund, debt advice. Before the comprehensive spending review, the Government said that they would make an announcement on the future of that fund after the CSR, then we heard that it would be made in December, and now we are told that it will be in January. Will the Leader of the House ensure that the Government make an urgent statement to end the uncertainty for the citizens advice bureau and my constituents, whom it serves so well?
Sir George Young
There will be a debate next Tuesday in Westminster Hall on legal aid. I pay tribute to the work done by the CAB in the hon. Lady’s constituency. If she takes part in that debate, I will ensure that she has an answer to her question.
Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)
Will the Leader of the House join me in congratulating Weatherfield’s—and Rossendale’s—most famous son, William Roache, and the cast of “Coronation Street”, on the programme’s 50th anniversary today? Will he find time for a debate on the contribution of the creative industries to the north-west economy?
Sir George Young
I am sure that the whole House will want to join my hon. Friend in his congratulations to the producers and cast of “Coronation Street” on its 50th anniversary—it is a well loved and enduring British institution. I pay tribute to William Roache, who has starred in the programme since its very first episode. I am not sure whether my hon. Friend’s constituency stretches to Weatherfield, but he can probably console himself with the fact that his postbag is not quite as large as that of whichever Member represents Albert square.
John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
The Dear Leader should not dismiss so lightly the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick). If peaceful protesters are kettled this afternoon—it frequently happens for six or eight hours or even longer—the Opposition will expect a statement from the Home Secretary.
Sir George Young
I note what the hon. Gentleman says, but I believe that the police will discharge their responsibilities in the correct way and ensure that any protest is peaceful.
Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)
Last Thursday, when our minds may have been elsewhere—mine certainly was—we approved changes to the rules of the Standards and Privileges Committee. How much of the allegation that the new rules mean that wide-ranging investigations can be launched without any direction from the Committee or any complaint is correct?
Sir George Young
The commissioner has been given the powers to start an investigation without a formal complaint. That is because in certain cases, complaints appeared in newspapers and were widely reproduced, but nobody made a formal complaint, so there was no investigation. The Standards and Privileges Committee introduced its proposal to address that particular problem, and it was unanimously approved by the House last week.
Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)
May I yet again make an impassioned plea to the Leader of the House to use his good offices to encourage Defence Ministers to come to that Dispatch Box to tell us what progress has been made on compensation payments for Christmas island victims and veterans? They have waited long and hard for some compensation. Let us put the legalities aside. Does the Leader of the House agree with early-day motion 1116, that there is a moral obligation on this Government, as indeed there was on the previous one, to pay compensation to those people?
[That this House notes with regret the decision of the Court of Appeal to deny ex-servicemen compensation for the illness and injuries they believe they suffered as a result of exposure to radiation from atmospheric nuclear weapons tests conducted between 1952 and 1958 on mainland Australia, the Australian Montebello Islands and on Christmas Island in the South Pacific; further notes that deleterious health impacts and cancers caused as a result of radiation exposure can appear several years after the exposure; therefore believes that, where compensation claims by atomic test veterans fall foul of a statute of limitations on the time period within which a claim should normally be made, Ministers should still consider those claims; further notes with alarm that Dr Sue Rabbit-Roff, a researcher at Durham University, has contacted 2,500 veterans in the UK and New Zealand establishing that twice as many were suffering from the radiation-induced cancer, multiple myeloma, than had been conceded by successive British governments; welcomes the French government's agreement to compensate its own atomic test veterans, those who contracted illnesses attributed to the country's nuclear tests in the Sahara and French Polynesia, between 1960 and 1996; and calls on the Ministry of Defence to set aside its case in the courts and recognise its moral responsibility to compensate the UK soldiers and their families who acted in good faith to fulfil their military duties but as a consequence have suffered from exposure to radiation.]
Sir George Young
I understand the hon. Gentleman’s strong feelings on that subject. He will have the opportunity to put that question to the Defence Secretary at Defence questions on Monday.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
Some weeks ago, the House was promised—in a ministerial statement and on the Floor of the House—that by Christmas, there will be a statement on contaminated blood. Will the Leader of the House confirm that that is still the case?
Sir George Young
I confirm what was said in oral questions on Tuesday—that Health Ministers expect to report the outcome of the review before Christmas.
Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab)
In Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs questions, the Minister with responsibility for forestry made several references to the 1% of Forestry Commission land that has been sold off in recent years. Those routine sales are dwarfed by the fire sale of our English forests that the Public Bodies Bill, which is currently in the other place, makes possible. May we have a separate debate in Government time on the protection of, and access to, our woodland? England’s forests are far too precious to be just another clause in that Bill.
Sir George Young
I can give no undertaking that there will be such a debate, but I remind the hon. Gentleman that the Labour party sold some 12,000 hectares of land without any reference at all.
Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)
Although I very much welcome the increase in exports, many small and medium-sized businesses in my constituency are finding it difficult to get capital from banks. If they get capital, they find that the banks want to charge enormous interest rates. Is it not time we had a debate on that, because the coalition Government very much want an increase in the private sector?
Sir George Young
It is essential for economic recovery that the banks provide the finance necessary to generate wealth. As I think I said in response to an earlier question, I will draw that issue to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. There could be an opportunity to pursue the matter further at the next Treasury questions.
Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)
May we have a statement on the work of the Met Office, particularly given its forecast on Sunday evening of inclement weather in Scotland on Monday? During that statement, could we take the opportunity to dissociate ourselves from the disgraceful comments of the Scottish National Party Minister in the devolved Administration, who sought to lay the blame for their failure to do anything on the Met Office, even though it had warned of inclement weather?
Sir George Young
I am reluctant to be drawn into Scottish politics. I see no prospect of an early debate on the Met Office, but there will be an opportunity to question at the Dispatch Box the Ministers who have overall responsibility for it.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
I welcome the opportunity to debate firearms on 20 December. The Leader of the House will be aware—I copied him in—that I wrote to the Home Secretary more than a fortnight ago to ask her to explain why almost 5,000 children have shotgun licences. I am yet to receive a reply, but I am sure that the House will think that one would be appropriate ahead of that debate. Will the Leader of the House urgently investigate that and ensure that the House is informed of the reasons why those children have shotguns?
Sir George Young
I understand that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary wrote to the hon. Gentleman yesterday to address his specific queries. I have a copy of the letter with me in case it has not reached him.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
The noble Lord Hill has confirmed to me that students in year 12 currently in receipt of education maintenance allowance will not be able to receive it as they progress into the second year of their post-16 course. They will then become the first cohort of students vulnerable to the new tuition fee regime. I am sure that the Government do not intend that small group of students to pay such a heavy penalty. Will the Leader of the House arrange for a statement to be made?
Sir George Young
They will be eligible, if they are in financial need, for the continuation of EMA, which was referred to earlier.
Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab)
Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch have been brought to a standstill by the arctic weather over the past 10 days and local authority resources are at breaking point, and that is before the Government’s public sector cuts. May we have a debate on what the spending cuts will mean for this country’s future preparedness for winter emergencies?
Sir George Young
That is a matter for the devolved Administration in Scotland, who get a block grant from the UK Government to apply as they think fit. They are accountable for how they discharge their obligations and the priorities on which they decide.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
May we have a debate in the House about why £2 billion in business rates is being withheld from local authorities until 2013-14, prior to a general election, while the Government are still insisting that front-loaded cuts be imposed on local authorities at present?
Sir George Young
I hope that there will be a statement on local government finance in the relatively near future, when the hon. Gentleman will have the opportunity to put that question.
Points of Order
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Under the terms of the timetabling motion for the business that is about to come, if the debate started now, we would take a vote at 5.21 pm, because only five hours are allowed despite the fact that the moment of interruption does not come until 6 o’clock under normal business. Is there anything that can be done, even at this late stage, to get us the extra 39 minutes that we would have had under normal circumstances, so that hon. Members who want to contribute to the debate have a chance to do so?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
The timetabling for the debate was decided last night.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I have given advance notice of this point of order to the Member in question. During Environment, Food and Rural Affairs questions earlier, Mr James Gray directed a racist remark towards my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain). What steps can you take to protect Members of the House from the racist views espoused by Mr James Gray, and will you now ask him to apologise?
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I cannot imagine what sedentary remark the hon. Gentleman may have heard, but I am certain that had it been out of order in any shape, size or form, Mr Speaker, who was then in the Chair, would have picked me up on it. Further to that, as a Scot born, bred and educated, who never left the borders of Scotland until the age of 21, I think that unlike the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty), I have the highest respect and love for my native heath. I would never say a single word against it.
Mr Deputy Speaker
No, I will not take any more points of order on this matter. It might be appropriate, particularly given what is about to be debated, that I remind Members of the House that good temper and moderation are characteristics of parliamentary debate. I am sure that if the Chair had heard anything untoward, it would have been dealt with then.
Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. During an answer supplied to me by the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs during DEFRA questions this morning, she appeared to imply that a document issued by an agency of her own Department, entitled “Poverty amongst farming households”, related solely to the policies of the previous Government. I have examined the document very carefully since DEFRA questions and found references to a document from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and to the Agricultural Wages Board. Can you provide the House with some assistance on how we can ensure that Government Departments communicate more effectively with each other, how Secretaries of State can be properly apprised of the contents of their own Departments’ documents, and when—
Mr Deputy Speaker
Order. This sounds like an extension of Question Time, but I am sure that Members on the Treasury Bench will have heard the points that have been made.
Bill Presented
Loans to Ireland Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, supported by the Prime Minister, Mr Secretary Hague, Secretary Vince Cable, Mr Secretary Paterson, Danny Alexander, Mr Mark Hoban, Mr David Gauke and Justine Greening, presented a Bill to make provision in connection with the making of loans to Ireland by the United Kingdom.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 125) with explanatory notes (Bill 125-EN).
Business without Debate
consolidated fund bill
Higher Education Fees
17:24 - The House divided: - Ayes: 323 / Noes: 302 - Question accordingly agreed to.
17:42 - The House divided: - Ayes: 323 / Noes: 302 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
With Mr Speaker standing next to me, I have to inform the House that he has not selected any of the amendments on the Order Paper.
The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)
I beg to move,
That, for the purpose of section 24 of the Higher Education Act 2004, the higher amount should be increased to £9,000, and to £4,500 in the cases described in regulation 5 of the draft regulations in Command Paper Cm 7986, and that the increase should take effect from 1 September 2012.
Mr Deputy Speaker
With this we shall discuss the following motion on education:
That the draft Higher Education (Basic Amount) (England) Regulations 2010, which were laid before this House on 29 November, be approved.
Vince Cable
The terms of the statutory instrument are narrow, but I think you ruled yesterday evening, Mr Speaker, that you would like us to entertain debate on the wider issues involved, because they arouse very strong feelings inside and outside the House. The instrument represents a central part of a policy that is designed to maintain high-quality universities in the long term, that tackles the fiscal deficit and that provides a more progressive system of graduate contributions based on people’s ability to pay.
I shall briefly go over the sequence of events that has led to this debate. I became Secretary of State in May, when the Browne report was being conducted. It had been commissioned by the previous Labour Government last November. They had asked the former chief executive of BP to conduct a report in order to prepare the way for an increase in tuition fees following the earlier introduction of fees, and then top-up fees, by the last Government.
Vince Cable
I will take interventions later. You have asked, Mr Speaker, that both Front Benchers should keep their introductions brief. [Interruption.] As hon. Members know, I am very happy to take interventions, but I will take them when I have developed an argument. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. The Secretary of State should resume his seat for a moment, and I apologise for having to interrupt him.
There are strong opinions on this matter, and passions are aroused. That is understood and accepted. What is not accepted by any democrat is that the Secretary of State should not receive a fair hearing. The right hon. Gentleman will be heard, and if Members are making a noise and then expecting to be called, I fear that is a triumph of optimism over reality.
Vince Cable
When I became Secretary of State, I invited Lord Browne to make two adaptations to the terms of reference that he had undertaken under the previous Government. The first thing that I asked him to do was to see how we could make the existing system of graduate payments more progressive and more related to future graduates’ ability to pay. He undertook to do that, and we have done further work to develop the progressivity of the system. As a result, the Institute for Fiscal Studies was able to conclude that the package that we have produced is more progressive than the existing system and more progressive than the Browne report. Concretely, what that means is that just a little under 25% of all future graduates will pay less than they do under the current system that we inherited from the Labour Government.
Vince Cable
I will give way in a moment.
The second request that I made of Lord Browne was to ask him to look thoroughly at the alternatives, and particularly at the alternative of a graduate tax. Like many people coming fresh to the issue, I thought that the graduate tax was a potentially good and interesting idea, and I wanted it to be properly explored. He reached the same conclusion that the Dearing report reached under the Labour Government and the same conclusion that the shadow Chancellor reached when he had responsibility for this policy. The conclusion was that the pure graduate tax has many disadvantages: it undermines the independence of universities and, most seriously, it is, in the words of Lord Browne, simply unworkable. I am surprised, therefore, that the Leader of the Labour party, after all this experience and independent analysis, has chosen to drive his party down the cul-de-sac of this policy.
Vince Cable
I will take the hon. Gentleman’s intervention after reading to him a comment from someone whom I would have thought would have been one of his political allies. The education editor of the New Statesman—that publication is normally favourably disposed to the Labour party—commented on Labour’s current position:
“Labour has been seduced into sentimental, sloppy thinking that defends the interests of the affluent, not the poor… To describe students as facing a lifelong “burden” of “crippling” debt is simply bizarre, particularly for a Labour leader who wants to replace the debt with a graduate tax that the rich would avoid”.
Mr Thomas
On sloppy thinking, crucial to the Government’s case has been their advocacy of the national scholarship fund, but since the weekend when he announced further details, have the Secretary of State’s plans not been unravelling rather fast? Vice-chancellors are criticising it left, right and centre, and yesterday, the Institute for Fiscal Studies told us that it provides a financial incentive for universities to turn away students from poorer backgrounds. How is he going to fix it?
Vince Cable
The consultation on the national scholarship scheme is still open to representations from the hon. Gentleman, vice-chancellors and others in order to achieve an objective that I hope he shares, which is to ensure that people from disadvantaged backgrounds achieve access to higher education. That is something the Labour Government failed miserably to do in relation to the Russell group universities. As it happens, the IFS looked at one of a series of options, but did not take account of the fact that, under our proposed scheme, those universities that wish to progress beyond the £6,000 cap will be obliged to introduce the scholarship scheme without the detrimental effects he described.
Mr Straw
I am grateful to the Secretary of State, but he knows that the central issue is the fact that the teaching grant is to be cut by 80%, the burden of which is to be transferred to students. That is justified by the Government’s assessment of the scale of the deficit. Yesterday, in evidence to the Treasury Select Committee, the Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted that he is anticipating tens of billions of pounds of receipts from privatisations not included in the comprehensive spending review. What estimate does the Secretary of State put on those receipts, and to what extent have they been taken into account in his calculations of the scale of the deficit and the cut to the grant?
Vince Cable
I am glad of that intervention from the right hon. Gentleman, who, given his history in the previous Cabinet, is—I think—a co-author of the package of measures we inherited, and which lacked progressivity. His intervention is helpful in directing us to the heart of the debate, which is the question of how we fund universities and where the money comes from. That is exactly what I now wish to deal with.
Vince Cable
For the funding of universities, Lord Browne recommended—in a report that the then Labour Government endorsed, I think, in their manifesto—that there should be no cap on university fees and a specific proposal for a clawback mechanism that gave universities an incentive to introduce fees of up to a level of £15,000 a year. That was the report given to the Government. We have rejected those recommendations and proposed instead that we proceed as the statutory instrument describes. That involves the introduction of a fee cap of £6,000, rising to £9,000 in exceptional circumstances.
I will now explain the basic economics of that problem in the light of the intervention from the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw).
Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)
Will the Secretary of State give way?
Vince Cable
No, I will not. I will give way later, when I have finished my point.
The right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham), who is the Opposition spokesman on this matter, rather helpfully sent a circular letter to MPs yesterday in which he sketched out the basic economic framework within which these decisions have been made. He said that
“MPs have been asked to vote on increasing the fee cap to £9000”—
he did not mention the £6,000, but never mind—
“because the Government is choosing to make a disproportionate cut to the university teaching budget…in a spending review with an average cut of 11%”.
Vince Cable
I will finish my point.
As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the Government, like the previous Government, are not making average, across-the-board cuts of 11% in every Department. We have chosen, as did the previous Government, to have some protected Departments—health, schools, pensions and aid. The logical consequence of that is much higher cuts in unprotected Departments. I am sure that he remembers the IFS analysis that told us, in the wake of the March Budget, that a Labour Government were planning to cut unprotected Departments by 25.4%.
Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab)
The right hon. Gentleman has been good enough to refer to my letter. He knows full well that the IFS analysis carried out after the Budget does not stand up to scrutiny, and reflects neither the decisions taken by the Chancellor in the comprehensive spending review nor the speech made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) setting out our approach. However, will the Secretary of State help the House by identifying which other major spending programmes have been cut by 80%?
Vince Cable
The 80% fact—and it is a fact—derives from the following: most major Departments have had to take spending reductions of about 25%, as they would have done under a Labour Government. I wish to take the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues in opposition through what that has meant for the teaching grant to universities and university funding in general.
Vince Cable
I shall develop this point and then take an intervention.
What were the options for a Department facing 25% cuts of the kind that the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen himself was going to introduce? Some 70% of all spending in the Department is on universities. He could—and I could—have chosen to make the cuts elsewhere, but the largest category would have been in further education. We could have made the choice to cut apprenticeships and skill-level training by a modest amount, but we need to deal with the problem we have inherited of 6 million adults in this country without the basic literacy of a 12-year-old. We could have cut that, but we chose not to. So we were left with the question of how to make cuts in the university budget of about 25%. There were various options—
Vince Cable
I will finish this section and then take an intervention.
There were various options for cutting the university budget. We could have reduced radically the number of university students by 200,000, but all the evidence suggests, as the previous Government used to argue, that increasing university participation is the best avenue to social mobility. We therefore rejected that option and did not cut large numbers of university students.
We could have made a decision radically to reduce student maintenance, which would have been easier, less visible and less provocative in the short run. We could have done that, but the effect of that would have been to reduce the support that low-income students receive when they are at university now. We rejected that option. We could have taken what I would call the Scottish option. We could have cut funding to universities without giving them the means to raise additional income through a graduate contribution. The certain consequence of that would have been that in five to 10 years, the great English universities—Manchester, Birmingham, Bristol and the rest—would still be great, world-class universities, whereas universities such as Glasgow, which I used to teach at, and Edinburgh would be in a state of decline. We rejected—and rejected consciously—all those unacceptable options.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
I am very grateful to the Secretary of State. Does he even begin to understand or appreciate the potentially disastrous impact that trebling tuition fees in England will have on Scottish universities? What will he do to mitigate that?
Vince Cable
I most emphatically will not be following the advice of the Scottish nationalists in government, who are starving Scottish universities of resources and reallocating priorities to cut schools. That is what has happened in Scotland.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
I am sure that we can all agree that all students who would benefit from a university education should be entitled to do so, regardless of their financial situation. My concern is that by increasing the tuition cap, participation levels among lower and middle-income students will fall away. What assurance can the Government give that the situation will be monitored closely and that corrective action will be taken, should participation levels fall away?
Vince Cable
Yes, of course I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. Of course the policy will be monitored, and it will reflect the evidence that emerges. We have put in place not merely a series of measures to protect low-income graduates, which we have done through the threshold, but a series of measures designed to help children from low-income families to go to university, notably by increasing the maintenance grant from its level under the previous Government, giving access to an extra 500,000 pupils.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
I am extremely grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way. I wonder whether he could say something about how he sees the future position of English students relative to Scottish and Welsh students. Should we not be looking to secure a degree of fairness between families of similar economic circumstances across the United Kingdom in years to come?
Vince Cable
I believe, as the Government as a whole believe, in devolution. We believe that the devolved Administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have got to make their own decision, but the inevitable consequence of the tightening of public finance—a tightening that is happening under this Government, but which would happen under any Government—was bound to be a system of graduate contributions, which is what will happen throughout the UK. However, that is for those Administrations to decide.
Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)
Despite this talk of supporting people on low incomes, I find it quite hard to stomach what I am hearing, because in my constituency, for example, the vast majority of young people come from low-income backgrounds, yet they will be losing support through the education maintenance allowance, from which 88% of Bangladeshi children across England benefit. That one ethnic minority group, along with white working-class children, will be prevented from going on to higher education. Coupled with that are the cuts in the future jobs fund—£1 billion, and we are still waiting to hear—so please think again.
Mr Speaker
Order. Just before the Secretary of State replies, let me say that an enormous number of Members wish to speak in this debate. I want to accommodate as many as possible. From now on, interventions must be brief.
Vince Cable
Yes, of course I hear what the hon. Lady says about the education maintenance allowance. What I would say is that the existing system that we inherited was enormously wasteful. Large numbers of pupils received the EMA who did not need it to stay on at school. However, she is quite right to stress the fact that there are large pockets of deprivation in Britain, and her constituency in the east end of London is one of them. We understand that. The purpose of the pupil premium, which is being introduced into the school system, is precisely to address that problem of giving support to schools and pupils in areas of high deprivation.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
Will the Secretary of State give way before moving on?
Vince Cable
I will take an intervention later, if my hon. Friend does not mind.
We have eliminated, I think, most of the other alternatives to raising funding for universities. I hope that nobody on the Opposition Benches is seriously arguing that we should drastically reduce the number of students, that we should drastically reduce maintenance or that we should simply withdraw funding from universities. The only practical alternative was to retrieve income for universities from high-earning graduates once they have left. That is the policy that we are pursuing, and today, 50 university vice-chancellors have come forward and endorsed this approach to the strengthening of university funding in the long term.
Vince Cable
Opposition Members who follow these arguments closely have often made the following argument. “We acknowledge,” they say, “that universities will continue to have high levels of income, but you’re replacing public funding with private funding, and this is”—in some sense—“ideological.” [Hon. Members: “It is!”] That is a debating point, and I am happy to take it on. At present, roughly 60% of the income of universities comes from the public sector, through different funding streams. The rest comes from private sources—something that the previous Government were trying to encourage. That will be reversed: in future, roughly 40% of university funding will come from the public sector and 60% will come from the private sector. I am keen to encourage more private funding of universities, which is why I have spoken to the director general of the CBI. He is approaching all his members to ensure that we have a significantly higher level of employer support for apprenticeships, sandwich courses and other—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. First, there is still far too much noise in the Chamber. Secondly, when the Secretary of State has indicated that he is not giving way, Members must not continue standing. That is the situation.
Vince Cable
I hope that not too many Opposition Members would regard additional funding from employers as somehow ideologically contaminated, because we will need more resources going into universities, not less, and that is what we are doing.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
Under the fees scheme introduced by the Labour party, all universities ended up charging at the highest rate. One of the worries out there is that all universities might end up being allowed to charge £9,000. What assurance—what rules, what guarantees—can my right hon. Friend give that “exceptional” will mean “exceptional”, and that £6,000 will be the limit for most universities in the country?
Vince Cable
That is a highly pertinent question in the light of the experience of the last Government, who had a two-tier system. There was a migration of all universities to the top of the range. They operated, in effect, like a cartel, and that must be stopped. It must not happen again, and there are several means by which that will happen. First, any university that wants to go beyond £6,000 will have to satisfy very demanding tests of access for low-income families, including through the introduction of the scholarship scheme. Newer institutions, particularly further education colleges providing accredited courses, will drive down the cost of high quality basic teaching. If universities defy the principle of operating on a competitive cost basis, it may well be necessary to introduce additional measures to observe the principle that my hon. Friend has correctly summarised, which is that—
Mr Speaker
Order. I apologise for interrupting the Secretary of State, but I must ask him to address the House. His natural courtesy causes him to look at the Member to whom he is responding, but I want the whole House to hear what he has to say.
Vince Cable
I am simply saying that there are potentially other mechanisms by which universities that exceed the £6,000 level will not be allowed to behave in the way that they behaved under the last Government.
Vince Cable
Let me proceed. Of course increasing the graduate contribution is bound to have an effect—it is an additional cost—to graduates. I therefore want to summarise the steps we are taking to make sure that this happens in a fair and equitable way. First of all, no full-time students will pay upfront tuition fees and part-time students doing their first degree will for the first time—unlike under the last Government—have the opportunity to obtain concessional finance under the student loan scheme arrangements.
Yesterday, after discussing the issue with the Open university and others, I made a further announcement that we will increase the range of that access from students spending a third of their time in education, as originally proposed, to those spending a quarter of their time in it. That will widen enormously the number of part-time students who will have access to supporting finance in order to pursue their education.
Vince Cable
Thirdly, we will introduce a threshold for graduate repayment of a £21,000 salary—a significantly higher level than before—and it will be uprated annually in line with earnings. It is important to emphasise that point because under the Labour Government, there was a threshold of £15,000, but it was never uprated on any basis whatever. I wish to communicate what I said yesterday—that students who were pegged at that £15,000 threshold under the current arrangements established by the Labour Government, will in future have annual uprating in line with inflation. Those existing students whom the last Government did absolutely nothing to protect will have inflation-proofing in future.
Vince Cable
Furthermore, we are introducing variable interest rates so that those on high incomes pay relatively more to ensure the progressivity of the scheme, as a result of which a £30,000 salary will carry a monthly payment of approximately £68, which is far lower, incidentally, than it would be under a graduate tax system. Under that system, people would have to start paying much earlier and at much lower levels of income.
Mr Speaker
The Secretary of State is not giving way at the moment and must be allowed to continue—[Interruption.] Order. He must be allowed to continue his argument.
Vince Cable
As well as the measures we have taken to improve access for low-income families, as opposed to the separate problem of low-income graduates, we have made it clear that additional grant provision will be made, as I said in response to an earlier intervention. In addition, universities wishing to move to a higher threshold will have demanding tests applied to their offer requirements in respect of access.
It is worth recalling the situation that we have inherited. There are a lot of crocodile tears from Labour Members, so let me remind them that social mobility, judged by the number of people from disadvantaged backgrounds getting into Russell group universities, has deteriorated over the last decade. There are currently 80,000 free school meal pupils, of whom only 40 made it to Oxbridge —40 out of 80,000. That is fewer than from some of the leading independent schools. That is a shameful inheritance from people who claim to be concerned about disadvantaged backgrounds—and we intend to rectify it.
Let me conclude in this way. I do not pretend—none of us pretends—that this is an easy subject. Of course it is not. We have had to make very difficult choices. [Interruption.] Yes, we have. We could have taken easier options, but we were insistent that at the end, we would make a substantial—
Mr Donohoe
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Did not the Secretary of State say that he was going to give way? Why is he not doing so?
Mr Speaker
I understand what the hon. Gentleman has said, but that is not a point of order; it is a point of frustration.
Vince Cable
I have given way to several of the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues and several of my own, and I now wish to summarise where we are.
As I was saying, there have been difficult choices to make. We could have made a decision drastically to cut the number of university students; we could have cut student maintenance; we could have cut the funding to universities, without replacing it. Instead, we have opted for a set of policies that provides a strong base for university funding and makes a major contribution to reducing the deficit, while introducing a significantly more progressive system of graduate payments than we inherited. I am proud to put forward that measure to this House. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. [Interruption.] Order. [Interruption.] Order. I understand the passions, but the more noise, the greater the delay and the fewer the number of Members who will have a chance to contribute. I want Back Benchers to have the chance to contribute and I appeal to right hon. and hon. Members to help me to help them.
Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. On Monday, I tabled three named day questions relating to the evidence underpinning Government policy. They were about what studies the Government have commissioned about the potential impact of these higher fees on participation, particularly on longer courses such as languages, medicine, law and architecture and on post-graduate teaching courses. Those questions were due for answer at noon today, but answer has come there none. What can the House do, Mr Speaker, to ensure that Government better inform us with vital information so that we can properly debate subjects like this, which are of interest to the whole nation?
Mr Speaker
The hon. Gentleman knows that I am in favour of timely replies to parliamentary questions. He is an experienced hand in this House and must pursue these matters through the Table Office and in other ways; we cannot be detained now by what he has just said.
Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab)
I note that the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister have already walked out of the debate. It is a shame that the two architects of this policy do not have the courtesy to stay and listen to both sides of the debate.
I fear I may have to lower Opposition Members’ expectations. Those of my hon. Friends who have come here expecting some good party political knockabout—U-turns, broken promises and fees policies described by the Deputy Prime Minister as a “disaster” that he now claims to believe in—need to know that I am not going to do that speech. So much of the media coverage of this issue has been dominated by Liberal Democrat splits that we could be forgiven for thinking that today’s vote is about the future of the Liberal Democrats. It is not about the future of the Liberal Democrats; it is about something much more important than that. There are millions of parents and millions of current and future students who do not care about the Liberal Democrats, but who do care about the huge fee increase that we are being asked to decide today. Today’s decision must be taken on the facts and on the merits. If this Tory measure goes through with the support or abstention of Liberal Democrats, that party will forfeit the right to call itself a progressive political party.
The House can stop that decision today. The deputy leader of the Liberal Democrats says that he cannot support the Government—as well he might, because his local university’s funding will be cut from £38 million to £3 million a year, and it has already said that it wishes to charge the full £9,000 tuition fee. The Liberal Democrats’ deputy leader says that he may vote against the Government, and if he and every Member of the House—not just Liberal Democrat Members, but Conservative Members, Labour Members and Members of other parties—vote against the proposal today, it will fall.
Let me set out why Members should vote against, or vote for a delay and a rethink, rather than abstaining.
Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Secretary of State said earlier that 15 vice-chancellors support him? I have a petition from the university of Warwick of 240 leading academics in this country who object to the increases in charges and, more importantly, call for a public inquiry into the future of education. What does my right hon. Friend think about that?
Mr Denham
There is widespread disquiet not only in the academic community. Significantly, the Secretary of State referred to the letter from Universities UK but did not read it out, because it makes it absolutely clear that Universities UK opposes the cuts in higher education funding on which the fee increase is based. He has persuaded vice-chancellors, with a gun to their head, that as the money is going the fee increase is the only option in town, but that hardly speaks of him persuading the university community of the policy.
As you said last night, Mr Speaker, today’s vote is on a narrow issue—the fee cap. Behind that, however, is the most profound change in university funding since the University Grants Committee was set up in the 1920s. It is the ending of funding for most university degrees. It is a huge burden of debt on graduates. It is an untried, untested and unstable market for students.
Although there is always room for improvement, England enjoys a world-class university system: world-class in research, with a disproportionate number of the best research universities; and a richness and diversity of higher education to compare with the best. The risks are so high, and the consequences so unclear, that no sane person would rush the proposal through without proper debate or discussion. Today, however, we do not even have the promised higher education White Paper to tell us how it is meant to work.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
While the right hon. Gentleman is talking about fundamental changes, will he talk about his party, including him, voting to introduce fees and breaking the principle of free education? That is a fundamental change, for which he voted, and he voted for top-up fees against manifesto commitments. Will he apologise?
Mr Denham
The 2001 Labour manifesto—I was a Back Bencher at the time, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) was the responsible Minister—ensured that the policy did not come into force until there had been a further general election. That is not the coalition’s proposal.
I am sorry that the Prime Minister has left, because he did his bit yesterday to run down our English universities, saying that they were unsustainable, uncompetitive and unfair. He did not say that they were world class or praise what they had achieved; he could only knock them. “Uncompetitive”? They are the second most popular destination for overseas students in the world, but the Prime Minister tells the world that they are uncompetitive. That is a great deal of help for our universities.
The Prime Minister, however, has some interesting thoughts about overseas students. When he was in China, he told Chinese students that
“we won’t go on increasing so fast the fees on overseas students, because in the past we have been pushing up the fees on overseas students and using that as a way of keeping them down on our domestic students. So we have done the difficult thing in our government which is to put up contributions from British students.”
For foreign students, he said,
“we should be able to keep that growth under control.”
Now we know why the Prime Minister wants to push up contributions—to keep down the price for Chinese students. Extraordinary!
Yesterday, the Prime Minister said that the current model of higher education funding is not providing enough money. Quoting the Browne review, he said that public funding per student is lower in real terms than 20 years ago. We are bound to ask, “How the hell did that happen?” It did not happen under Labour. I can tell the Prime Minister how it happened. Between 1989 and 1997, under the previous Conservative Government, public funding per student fell by 36% in real terms. Who was the special adviser to the Conservative Chancellor at that time? It was the Prime Minister. If he wants to know whose fault it was, he ought to look more carefully in the mirror in the morning.
Now, the Prime Minister is at it again. He was cutting university funding then; he is cutting university funding now. This is a Tory policy of cutting higher education; unfortunately, this time they have Liberal Democrats to take it through with them.
Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab)
Why does my right hon. Friend think that the Government are so intent on destroying the humanities base in this country? Humanities is one of the leading areas of research and excellence, and they are withdrawing public funding. What do they have against it?
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
According to the last figures available, when the shadow Minister was in government, of the 80,000 children on free school meals, only 40 went on to Oxford and Cambridge. Does he not accept that his proposals for a graduate tax would mean less social mobility and people repaying a higher amount at an earlier stage?
Mr Denham
No, I do not. If the hon. Lady will forgive me, I will come to that point in a moment.
As a result of these Tory policies, this country will stand alone with Romania as the only OECD countries cutting investment in higher education. The Prime Minister’s speech yesterday, which was meant to be a defence of this policy, shows that he does not understand the most basic features of his policy. The fee increases are not designed to raise extra money for universities. That was Labour’s scheme—we took the difficult decision to introduce top-up fees, to add to record university income, and to enable more students to go to better-funded universities. The Prime Minister’s plan, put forward by the Business Secretary, is totally different. Fees are being trebled simply to reduce the 80% cut in the funding of university teaching, not to raise extra money. Most graduates will be asked not to pay something towards their university education, but to pay the entire cost of their university education. Universities will have to charge £7,000 to £8,000 simply to replace the money they lose, and many universities will lose 90% of their public funding. That is what is at stake today .
If the House passes the fee increase, English students and graduates will face the highest fees of any public university system anywhere in the developed world: higher than France, higher than Germany, and higher—yes—than the United States of America.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
Will the right hon. Gentleman welcome the fact that the repayments threshold is being increased to £21,000, and the fact that anyone earning less than £25,000 a year will pay less than £1 a day for university education?
Mr Denham
I will come to that in a moment. It is on the standard handout. Let me say first, however, that the hon. Gentleman may not realise that the increase to £21,000 will happen in 2016, when it will be worth, in real terms, precisely what our threshold was worth when we introduced it.
Mr Denham
I must make some progress.
Most graduates will be paying off their debts for 30 years. Under the current scheme, the average is 11 years. The children of those graduates will have started university before they have paid their own fees. As I will show, the payment system is not fair.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
Does my right hon. Friend accept that reducing access and increasing relative price to our competitors will reduce the productivity and tax receipts of future generations and undermine economic growth? What we should be doing is making the bankers pay the levy rather than giving it back in corporation tax, and investing that money in higher education and the future productivity and economic growth of this country.
Mr Denham
We certainly need to sustain investment in higher education, but as—again—I will show in a moment, it is not necessary to adopt our macro-economic policies to know that the Government could have made a different choice. No other country in the world is taking the step we are taking, and no other country in the world can understand why we are taking it. As always, rather than defending their position, the Government give the pathetic answer, “We had no choice.” But they did have a choice. Everyone knows they had a choice.
We in the Labour party would take a more measured and responsible approach to deficit reduction, but even on its own terms, if the coalition had cut higher education in line with the rest of public services, we would have been looking at fee increases of a few hundred pounds. The Business Secretary has told us that the figure should be not 10%, but 20%. That would mean fee increases of not much over £4,000, rather than the £6,000 to £9,000 for which the House is being asked to vote today.
Mr Baron
The right hon. Gentleman cannot get away from the fact that most independent experts agree that the graduate tax, which seems to be the policy of the Labour party, will make students worse off because they will have to pay back more debt and pay it back earlier. Why does he not address that fundamental point?
Mr Denham
Let me explain in a straightforward way to the hon. Gentleman and others who may be confused. There are two stages in this process. The first is deciding how much public funding there will be and how much money needs to come from graduates. The second is deciding how the graduates are to make their contributions. The first stage is the critical one to consider today, because it is the 80% cut in university education that is forcing the graduate contributions so high. As for the second, if the hon. Gentleman will bear with me, as did the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), I will set out the case in a few moments.
Mr Denham
I need to make some progress, because I am coming to an issue that concerns many Members.
The Business Secretary pleads that he has no money in his budget. I do not see why future generations should pay through the nose for his incompetence in allowing his budget to be cut by more than that of almost anyone else in Whitehall. The Government did not have to do that, and the truth is that in the long run it will almost certainly cost the taxpayer more.
What is the Government’s plan? I will tell the House. Every year they will borrow £10 billion to fund student loans, and every year they will write off £3 billion of the £10 billion that they have just borrowed because they cannot collect the loans. That is as much money as they are cutting from university teaching, but as the Institute for Fiscal Studies, the Higher Education Policy Institute and London Economics have said, the Government have almost certainly underestimated how much debt they will have to write off because students are borrowing more and borrowing it for longer. Students, saddled with debt, will be worse off. The universities, cut, will be worse off. The taxpayer will be worse off. If it were not so serious, it would be comic. Let us look at the Government’s central claim for their proposals.
Stephen Williams
Perhaps the shadow Secretary of State will enlighten us. When he was in the Cabinet—until May last year—and his successor Peter Mandelson proposed £1 billion of cuts from the higher education budget, did he support him or speak against the proposal?
Mr Denham
Being at the Dispatch Box is an interesting experience. [Hon. Members: “Answer the question.”] I am going to answer the question. Half the time we are told, “You never had a plan for dealing with the deficit”, and half the time we are told, “This is what you were going to do to deal with the deficit.” The Government cannot have it both ways. As I have said on many occasions since the publication of the Browne review, the higher education budget would not have been unscathed under our deficit reduction programme, but it would not have been cut by 80%, and we would not have forced the fees up to £6,000 or £9,000.
Mr Denham
I want to make some progress on the issue of fairness, because I believe that it lies at the heart of many of the Government’s arguments and of questions raised by Members in all parts of the House. The Government say that their proposal is fairer, and that it is better for low-income graduates. The Deputy Prime Minister has said:
“The bottom 25% of earners will pay much less in their contributions to their university education than they do at the moment.”—[Official Report, 10 November 2010; Vol. 518, c. 281.]
The Prime Minister said yesterday:
“With our new system, the poorest quarter of graduates will pay back less overall than they do currently.”
He also said:
“The poorest will pay less, the richest will pay more.”—[Official Report, 8 December 2010; Vol. 520, c. 281.]
Over the last 24 hours, we have seen a parade of conscience-stricken Ministers saying that they just have to hang on to ministerial office—they just have to keep their red boxes and their cars—because this is really such a good deal for low-income graduates. They will all be better off, they say. When I heard the Prime Minister say yesterday that trebling fees would leave everyone better off, I thought, “I’ve heard that voice before somewhere.” I could not place it at first, but last night I remembered. He is the bloke who does those advertisements on day-time television. You know the ones: “Have you got bad debts, credit card bills, county court judgments against you? Let us wrap them all into one simple payment and reduce your monthly payments.” We all know what is wrong with those advertisements. People are charged higher rates of interest, and end up paying much more. That is exactly what the Prime Minister is proposing today.
We all know what is wrong with the Prime Minister’s claims. Let us now have a look at the Government’s claims. Labour Members do not accept the Government’s comparisons between their scheme and ours—[Interruption.] I mean their comparisons between their scheme and the current scheme. We think that they have chosen their assumptions to produce the figures that they want. Many people do not realise that the £15,000 threshold set in 2006 is the same in real terms as the £21,000 threshold that will start in 2016.
Let us look at the Government’s figures none the less. They say that a graduate in the bottom 10% will pay less, but how much less? What is the change that has led the Deputy Prime Minister, the Prime Minister and many other Ministers to say that the new system is so fair and so wonderful? According to the Government’s own dodgy figures, the poorest 10% of graduates will pay an average of just £88 a year less—£1.60 a week. As the advertisement says, every little helps; but to see Members of Parliament, including Ministers, sell their consciences for just £88 a year is a tragedy.
If the Government’s real aim were to ease the pressure on the lowest-paid graduates, I would support it. The Government would have needed to make only minor changes to the current scheme to achieve that aim. However, nothing about the tiny benefit for the lowest-income graduates justifies doubling or trebling the debt of the vast majority of graduates. The IFS yesterday said that graduates from the 30% of poorest households would pay more. The heaviest burden will fall on graduates on average earnings; they will be the hardest hit in terms of how much of their earnings they will have to pay over the coming years. They will be hit harder than the graduates who go into the highest paid jobs. That is what the House of Commons Library says. That is what London Economics says. That is also what somebody to whom the House might wish to listen has said. Many Members will remember David Rendel, who for many years was the Member for Newbury and the higher education spokesman of the Liberal Democrats. In an e-mail I have received, he says the following to a number of his colleagues:
“There are those who are claiming that the current proposals are progressive. But this is only the case if by “progressive” you mean that in any one year richer graduates will pay more than poorer graduates. For all the middle- and higher-earning graduates, over their lifetimes the more they earn the less they pay. Since a very large part of the justification of charging tuition fees is the higher lifetime earnings of graduates…a scheme in which graduates with large lifetime earnings pay less than graduates with comparatively small lifetime earnings cannot be regarded as either progressive or fair. (In this regard”—
says the former higher education spokesman for the Liberal Democrats—
“the new proposals, because they include a real-terms interest charge, are in fact more regressive than Labour’s scheme!).”
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
I pay tribute to the right hon. Gentleman for his honesty and candour in making a substantial spending commitment. Will he tell the House how much?
Mr Denham
The hon. Gentleman has clearly not been listening. I have been talking about the changes that were open to his party to make.
It is because the average graduates going into typical jobs will get hit hardest compared with the highest-earning graduates, that we will need a fairer system of graduate contribution in the years to come.
Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con)
The right hon. Gentleman will not accept comparisons between the existing scheme and the Government’s proposals, but will he accept the analysis by the Institute for Fiscal Studies showing that the proposed system is more progressive than both the current scheme and the measures put forward in the Browne review?
Mr Denham
I must make some progress.
The “fairest” can be judged only by how much graduates pay. It must also be measured by the chance of becoming a graduate at all. Over the past few years the proportion of students from poorer backgrounds has steadily increased. There is much more to be done, and even more to be done on access to the most selective universities, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) has brilliantly shown this week.
The progress we have made was not an accident, however; it took great efforts by the majority of universities, and we constructed the support, the routes and the ladders of opportunity for more and more of those bright, talented young people. All that has been kicked away.
Andrew Percy
I wanted to make the point the shadow Secretary of State has just made when I tried to intervene on the Secretary of State’s opening speech. Participation has been widening, but there is evidence that the poorest children are not going to the best universities, and that remains a problem. The concern for many of us on the Government Benches—or some of us, certainly—is that increasing fees even further will mean they will be even less likely to go to the best universities.
Mr Denham
I am very sorry that the Secretary of State did not give way to the hon. Gentleman, because I think anybody who is showing the integrity and courage he is displaying in standing out and being critical of his party’s policies deserves a hearing from his own side of the House. In what he says, the hon. Gentleman is in some very good company, as I will show in a moment.
We created ladders of opportunity for young people from low-income backgrounds, but they are now being knocked over. The Minister for Universities and Science was recently asked a parliamentary question about the impact of Aimhigher. He said that
“evidence from colleges, schools and academies showed that involvement in the activities provided through Aimhigher was associated with higher than predicted attainment at GCSE and greater confidence among learners that they were able to achieve.”—[Official Report, 29 November 2010; Vol. 519, c. 590W.]
I repeat:
“greater confidence among learners that they were able to achieve.”
So what is the Minister doing? He is closing it down.
Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)
Figures from the Library show that the Labour Government put £230 million into widening participation. Aimhigher has gone and the rest of that money has not yet been confirmed by the new Government. If it goes, will it not mean that the £150 million made available is in fact a cut in terms of widening participation?
Mr Denham
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The scheme that was trumpeted at the weekend—and which I will talk about shortly—is dwarfed by the scale of the cuts and the uncertainty in the higher education budget. It is a loan that is dwarfed by the cut through the stopping, in about four weeks from now, of education maintenance allowance awards, which will stop for young people going to further education college this January.
EMAs have, of course, never been just about getting young people to university. Many young people have been enabled to succeed in getting other qualifications, and in going into better jobs or into the vastly increased number of apprenticeships that we created. EMAs make a difference to those aiming for university, yet the Government are shutting them down.
The whole House knows about the work of Sir Peter Lampl of the Sutton Trust. No one outside the education establishment has done more—or, indeed, been prepared to invest more of their own money—to campaign for fair access for students from low-income homes. He supported Labour’s fees policy in 2004, but he says about the current proposals that
“there is no doubt that such a significant increase in tuition costs would be a serious deterrent for those from non-privileged backgrounds. The double whammy of major cuts to state funding of universities and higher fees is inequitable and is sure to freeze social mobility. That is a bitter legacy for any politician.”
I hope Members will think about that, especially those final words.
Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab)
My constituency is in the fifth most deprived local authority area in London and the 19th most deprived in England. Participation rates among people going into higher education increased by over 80% between 1997 and last year. How can these proposals do other than bring that figure down and deter people from poor backgrounds from going to university? I have not had a single communication from a constituent telling me these proposals will make it more likely that they will go to university, but I have had many representations saying they will put them off going to university. Is that also the experience of my right hon. Friend?
Mr Denham
I will not take any further interventions. I have been speaking longer than I had intended, and I still have a couple of substantive points that I wish to make.
At the weekend we got a bit of a breakthrough. The Government finally admitted that high fees will put off low-income students. They announced the national scholarship scheme and fee waivers for students on free school meals. The Government like this idea: it saves them money, because they do not have to make loans. It costs universities money instead, because they have to match funds. It is also a limited plan covering 18,000 out of the 2 million students in higher education. In case Members do not know this, I will point out that free school meals are generally available only to those families where no one works. What about the millions of working families who earn just a little above benefit levels, however? I look forward to the next election when Tory and Lib Dem MPs will have to explain why John Smith, whose parents do not work, will get £18,000 knocked off their fees, while Susan Jones in the same street, whose parents have always worked and paid their taxes, gets no help at all. I am glad the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is present on the Front Bench, because he should have a word with his colleagues about how this supports the idea that work should pay.
This system will punish the very universities that have done the most to widen participation. The university of Bedfordshire, which took 120 students from free-school meal backgrounds in 2006-07, would have had to find £750,000 in match funding, whereas Cambridge, which took just 20, would have had to find only £120,000. Where is the sense in punishing success and rewarding failure? The IFS says that it
“provides a financial incentive for universities…to turn away students from poorer backgrounds.”
It does not make sense.
All the signs suggest a Government policy in disarray. There is no White Paper, and every day the Government try to respond to the latest criticism. Last week, we showed that two thirds of part timers would not benefit from their scheme, so they had to rush out a minor change yesterday. Last week, under pressure from me, the Business Secretary said he would write to the Office for Fair Access to give guidance about fair access and he has, but it was an empty document. Let me address one point: the House has been told that universities might charge £9,000 in “exceptional circumstances”, but nowhere in the guidance document that has been issued does the term “exceptional circumstances” appear. The Business Secretary does not tell the director of OFFA to limit the highest fees to exceptional circumstances or ask him to tell us what exceptional circumstances are. The truth is that he came to the House making a fine promise about the £9,000 and the exceptional circumstances but he has done nothing to bring that about in practice because he knows he will not be able to enforce it. That is not the right way to handle the House.
If I had more time, I would speak about the objections of the British Medical Association, the teaching organisations and the fact that the universities that train teachers have no idea how they will be funded. Let me end by saying a few words to those Ministers and Back Benchers who are struggling, even now, to reconcile party loyalty with a desire to do the right thing and support future students and our universities. [Laughter.]
Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)
They are not laughing in the Public Gallery.
Mr Denham
Millions of parents, students and future students will be watching the debate and they will wonder why it is such a laughing matter for right hon. and hon. Members.
Let me say a few words to those who are wrestling with this issue. It would be crass to compare the two issues, but I once resigned on a point of principle when I was a Minister. I say to Ministers and Back Benchers who are considering their positions today, “I know what you are going through. It is hard to stand aside from friends and colleagues with whom you’ve shared many a battle, but after you’ve done it, you realise it wasn’t half as bad as you thought it would be. The self respect you gain far outweighs any temporary loss of position, power or income.” The truth is that in any generous political party—mine is not the only generous political party in the House—there is usually a way back. This decision matters so much to so many people that I say to hon. Members, “If you don’t believe in it, vote against it.”
Mr Speaker
I have imposed a six-minute limit on Back-Bench contributions with immediate effect.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Will you give the House some guidance? The Business Secretary has come to the Dispatch Box to tell us how progressive and fair the system that the Government are imposing on thousands of students across the country is, but he has recently been quoted in a Liberal Democrat leaflet that has gone out in Scotland as saying not only that it is akin to the poll tax but that it is incredibly unfair—
Mr Speaker
Order. I have listened to the first two or three sentences of the hon. Gentleman’s attempted point of order, but I am afraid that it is not a point of order. He has put his concern on the record. I appeal to hon. Members to have regard for each other’s interests. I want to accommodate as many Members as possible, starting with Mr David Evennett.
Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con)
I am very grateful for the opportunity to participate in this important debate. As the shadow Minister with responsibility for higher and further education when in opposition, I strongly supported setting up the Browne review of student finance. The review, which was published earlier this year, was very thorough and from it the Government have, after considerable consideration, come forward with their plans.
I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary on his moderate and constructive speech and on the constructive and progressive decisions that he has taken. The proposals are much more progressive than the current system or any that the Opposition support. We all know that this is a difficult and emotional issue, and it has been made more so by the legacy of the previous Labour Government, who saddled us with huge economic and financial problems. If they had managed our public finances better, we would not have so many grave problems now.
I was very disappointed by the speech of the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham), which lacked any alternative or constructive policies and was vague and waffling on Labour policies. It is all very well for him to come here and wring his hands, but his Government were the ones who caused all the problems.
Three vital criteria should always be considered in relation to these matters. The first is, of course, finance and whether students will be put off going to university because they come from a disadvantaged household or a deprived area, or because they are concerned about future debt.
Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
It is quite right that we should help people on low incomes, but will my hon. Friend say a word about the many people whom we represent who are in work and have moderate incomes? They also need help and must not be disadvantaged. Middle-income Britain cannot go on paying for this.
Mr Evennett
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. Middle England will be looked on favourably because we want to get more students into university who have the ability, talent and determination to go there.
Mr Evennett
I shall not give way for the moment as I should like to make some progress.
Assistance must be given to those who are most disadvantaged, and I think that my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary sorted that out in his speech and his proposals.
The second criterion is that students need an improvement in the student experience if fees are to go up. They should get more tutorials, lectures, careers advice and so on. Currently, student experience is very varied; many have complained to me about the poor service they have received at university. There has to be an improvement in the quality of student experience—students want value for money. [Interruption.] I shall not take any notice of sedentary comments from Opposition Members. Perhaps they should listen. They did not listen when the Secretary of State was speaking; perhaps they would have learned something if they had.
Thirdly, universities need to adapt by creating more part-time courses, modules and, perhaps, two-year courses. I welcome the fact that my right hon. Friend is looking at assistance for students on part-time courses, who have been neglected in the past. The needs of our country should be paramount and the universities have to change to meet the challenges of today, the demands of students and the needs of our country. We are fortunate to have a world-class university system, but it needs to be maintained in the face of world competition, especially from the far east and America. We need the best students to come to our country, and from within it, and go to our universities to advance themselves and the interests of our country. The proposals deal with the three vital criteria that I have set out as being necessary to make the system work, be progressive and make our country’s future a success.
I have always been against a graduate tax—an idea that the Opposition now seem to be tinkering with. Browne considered it in his review but decided that it was not a good idea. I am against it because money would go straight from the graduate to the Treasury, whereas under our graduate contribution scheme, money will go directly to universities and give them an independent source of income free from Government interference. The right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen has not really explained the policy, but with a graduate tax, graduates would pay when they reached the taxable threshold, whereas our system proposes that they should pay only when they start earning more than £21,000. That is positive.
Andrew Bridgen
Does my hon. Friend agree that a graduate tax would act as a massive incentive for our brightest and best graduates to leave this country and pay tax elsewhere?
Mr Evennett
My hon. Friend makes the absolute point, outlining one of the many reasons why it would be a terrible mistake to go along that route. The Opposition are always going backwards, and this is an example of their doing so yet again. Time is short in this debate, because so many hon. Members wish to participate, but I must say that the disadvantages of the graduate tax are many and varied, and we should cast it into the dustbin, as the Government have done.
Members on both sides of the House must accept that things need to change. We do not like change sometimes, but it is necessary and this is an example of its importance—[Interruption.] But progress is not being made. Many disadvantaged children in London are not getting into university under the current system, and we need to change that. We want to give them the opportunity to do so. The new system has to be fairer to ensure that those young people have opportunities to go to the colleges and universities, as we want them to do.
I am a passionate supporter of more part-time and foundation degrees, and I am encouraged by the approach taken by the Open university. I recently discussed this with its vice-chancellor, Martin Bean, and learned of his enthusiasm for and commitment to providing a completely different student experience. We welcome that, because flexibility and an innovative approach are what we need. That is what these proposals are about, and it will not do for Opposition Front Benchers just to waffle vaguely on the key issues. The need for change is here, we have to look forward and we have to be progressive. That is what we are looking for. We want to ensure that there is fair access for people. That is what the Government believe in; we believe in opportunities for the future.
The Government accept the broad principles of the Browne review, with some amendments to make it more acceptable to the vast majority of young people who want to go into higher education. This reform package will offer more support to those on lower incomes, and will put higher education funding on a fairer and sustainable footing. It will be fair to students, taxpayers and universities—we must not forget that all those people have an interest and are involved. The Government’s proposals go a long way to achieving all that, because they are progressive and will aid social mobility. [Interruption.] Opposition Members make sedentary comments, but they do not want to listen. They failed to get social mobility in the 13 years that they were in government; we have put forward more policies in the past five or six months to do more than they did in 13 years. Our aim must be to create a stable future for higher education, and to encourage a genuine market that will provide academic excellence and reinforce the international success of British universities. That is what we are about in this House and this measure today, and I commend it to everybody.
Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) (Lab)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) on an excellent speech, in contrast to what we have just heard from the hon. Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford (Mr Evennett).
May I bring the House back to the reasons why we changed the funding system for higher education in 1997-98? As my right hon. Friend said, there had been a 36% drop in funding per student over the previous eight years. There had also been an eight-year cap on the expansion of higher education, denying literally millions of young people the opportunity of higher education over that decade. We introduced a new system that almost immediately raised £1 billion—that was not instead of the resources that were already going in, but in addition to those—so that tens of thousands and then hundreds of thousands of young people with the qualifications to be able to enter higher education were able to do so. We introduced a contingent repayment system for the flat-rate loan for maintenance. We introduced a system of bursaries for maintenance called “opportunity bursaries” and a system in relation to the new fees that were being charged. It resulted not in 18,000 young people being exempt from the fee for one year or a maximum of two years, but in more than 40% of all young undergraduates being exempt from the fee and a further 30% having the fee in partial remittance. In other words, this was contingent on the income of the family, it took into account the ability to pay and it introduced a much fairer repayment system. All of it was designed to expand opportunity, to develop courses within the universities and, as my right hon. Friend said, to provide the opportunity to make our country the second destination in the world for students across the globe.
I wish briefly to deal with social mobility. I know more about social mobility than most, because my whole life has been an example of it, from when I was on day release and attending evening classes to when I took the opportunity to get to university as a mature student. I am telling this House and, in particular, the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr Clegg)— if he were here—that he knows nothing about social mobility. The Government are removing the education maintenance allowance from constituencies such as mine, which ranks third lowest in Britain on past access to higher education; removing the child trust fund, which would have given young people a nest egg at the age of 18 and provided them with the incentive to go on and the funds to be able to repay loans; removing the Aimhigher scheme; and rolling in the so-called pupil premium by cutting 2.25% from the schools budget and then giving it back in something that is a sop to the Liberal Democrats, but which will actually be perverse in its impact across the country. Introducing a £9,000 a year fee on top of cuts in youth and careers services across the country is a deliberate, consistent and unfair attack on young people in our country and their future. That is why it should be rejected. It is not fair to young people and their families, it is not fair to universities, and it is not fair to our country and the future of Britain in a knowledge economy.
But this proposal is not necessary either because, as my right hon. Friend mentioned and as is clearly spelt out by the Office for Budget Responsibility, the borrowing that will be required to fund the loans in the first place will actually outstrip any gain that might have been made. Borrowing of £4.1 billion this year will increase to £10.7 billion in 2015-16, so far from helping us to tackle the deficit this adds to it. In other words, we are making the deficit worse in the period when we are supposed to be reducing it. If the Government are right and the economy recovers—God willing, it will—we will be able to sustain the £3 billion that is being removed from teaching, rather than remove it.
Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con)
First, I wish to point out that many Government Members understand social mobility. I am the first member of my family to stay at school beyond 16 and to go to university. What would the right hon. Gentleman say to the low-income non-graduate workers in my constituency who ask me why the lion’s share of the payment for degrees comes from their taxes to enable others to earn more money than they could ever hope to earn? Does he not accept that this is not as clear-cut and black and white as he is saying, and that it involves a very difficult balance between taxpayers and students?
Mr Blunkett
I recall arguing in 1997 that we should ensure that there is a fair balance; I used to use the analogy of those getting up at six in the morning to do a cleaning job. I know slightly more about that than the hon. Gentleman because many of my constituents do exactly that for a living. As my right hon. Friend pointed out, the perverseness of what is being introduced now will discourage people from going into work, from seeking promotion in work and from wanting their children to go to university in the first place.
Mr Blunkett
No, I will not. I pray in aid the Institute for Fiscal Studies, because when it discussed this scheme it said that the system generates perverse incentives. For example, the national scholarship fund provides a financial incentive for universities to reject students when they charge more than £6,000. In other words, the higher-level universities will end up rejecting students from poorer backgrounds—the exact opposite of what has been argued this afternoon. The position is very clear: the scheme is designed to change the architecture of higher education in this country. It is ideologically based, not logically based—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I apologise for interrupting the right hon. Gentleman. Stop the clock. Point of order, Mr Dan Byles.
Dan Byles
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Is it in order for the right hon. Gentleman to make such a personal remark, suggesting that I might not understand how difficult it is to get up early to go to work? When I was a soldier, I used to get up considerably before 6 am to serve my country.
Mr Speaker
The hon. Gentleman must resume his seat. The short answer to his question is, yes, it is a matter of debate and, however irritated he might feel, that was not a point of order. We must conduct the debate in an orderly way.
Mr Blunkett
The answer is very simple. More of my constituents and those who visit my advice surgery understand those issues than do those of Government Members. That is a simple fact, and that is why this is a value-laden, ideological issue, not one of rationality, not one of deficit-reduction—
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
I rise to speak in a debate in which I do not want to speak. I do not believe that this debate should be happening today, and I do not believe that it should be happening in the way that it is. It is only seven months since the general election and the Government were formed; it is less than two months since we saw the Browne report for the first time, and it is a month—a month—since the Government announced their proposals on higher education. Yet, today, we are being forced to hold the significant vote, without considering the other proposals, with a mere five-hour debate.
I make it clear that I am a Government Back Bencher. I support the coalition Government and I support what they are doing. I also support, understand and accept that both parties and MPs in the coalition have to compromise, but let me tell you, Mr Speaker, being asked to vote to increase fees up to £9,000 is not a compromise. It is not something that Liberal Democrat Back Benchers or even many Conservative Back Benchers should have been asked to consider.
As you and the House will know, Mr Speaker, I tabled an amendment, which unfortunately was not successful. It was tabled in my name, that of the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) and those of Members from all parts of the House. That was the final attempt to get the Government to listen, because the simple reality is that, even if their proposals are the best way forward for higher education, and I do not believe that they are, the Government have to accept that they simply have not convinced people of that, not only on the Liberal Democrat Benches, but far more importantly among the wider public and, crucially, future students and their families.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
What does my hon. Friend consider to be a reasonable percentage of time to spend on this debate relative to the amount of time given by the previous Government to the debate about whether this country should go to war with Iraq?
Greg Mulholland
All I say to the hon. Gentleman is that sometimes Governments are wrong, and sometimes one needs to have the courage to say so. I am doing that today.
Dr John Pugh (Southport) (LD)
Summarising this debate so far, one has to accept that the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), though very wise, does not know for certain that he is right, and that the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham), though equally wise, does not know for certain that he is right. Does not the House need an opportunity to assess the results of whatever policy we adopt today, and not do something that is purely irreversible?
Greg Mulholland
My hon. Friend is entirely right. There simply has not been an adequate evaluation to allay the very real concerns out there.
I am going to talk about the pledge. I did not sign just one pledge, I actually signed two: the National Union of Students pledge in this very House, and the Leeds university union pledge at the university. I do not regret signing either, but that is not the sole or, even, most important reason why I shall vote against the Government today. I shall vote against the Government today because I simply cannot accept that fees of up to £9,000 are the fairest and most sustainable way of funding higher education.
Before I became a Member, I opposed the Labour Government introducing fees in the first place, and I opposed the Labour Government introducing top-up fees. I said at the time, as did many hon. Members including courageous Labour Back Benchers, “This will lead one day to huge increases in fees and become a never-ending path.” Sadly, that has been shown to be absolutely correct.
Greg Mulholland
I will not give way, I am afraid, because I have taken my two interventions and the hon. Lady will have the chance to intervene on other people. I do apologise
We do need to look at higher education funding, but we must look at it as a whole, within the education system and with apprenticeships and further education. Rushing through this single vote today will do none of that. On the current proposals, I have said all along, and look to the Minister for Universities and Science, my right hon. Friend the Member for Havant (Mr Willetts) as I say it now, that there are indeed many progressive things in the proposals. The levels at which graduates will have to make a contribution, the measures for part-time students and the £21,000 threshold are very welcome.
I fully acknowledge all those things, but we need to debunk a myth. All those positive things, which are in the proposals and are progressive in terms of the graduate contribution, do not need to be tied to a huge increase in fees. That is simply a non sequitur. It is simply not true to say, “You cannot have one without the other,” and that is the crucial flaw in the Government’s argument today.
The Secretary of State knows, and we all know, that there is much confusion about the proposals, but is that not another reason to have more time for the Government to try to convince people? He and all Ministers who support the proposals today have to accept that they have not won the argument, and rushing things through, given the concern and anxiety about how it has been done without proper parliamentary scrutiny, is simply a recipe for bad policy.
The idea is that, when we finally get to the proposals in the White Paper, they will deal with the deficit, but that is questionable. In the proposals to be put before the House in the White Paper in the new year, huge amounts of money will go from the Treasury to the universities, but the difference is that those figures will have been moved from expenditure and put into a different column. That is the reality.
The Higher Education Policy Institute report states that
“the proposals will increase public expenditure through this parliament and into the next”,
and that
“it is as likely that in the long term the government’s proposals will cost more than they will save.”
It is smoke and mirrors, so I am afraid that the argument to increase fees to £9,000, albeit backed by progressive elements, is certainly not enough to persuade me. It is not enough to persuade many of my Liberal Democrat colleagues or, indeed, colleagues and friends from our coalition partner.
So, I say one last time, having done so over the past week, that it is not too late. There needs to be a re-think and a proper review of how we come up with the best system for higher and, indeed, all post-18 education. That should be done properly. It should not be rushed through; it should be done with proper parliamentary scrutiny.
To Liberal Democrat colleagues who are listening to the argument and say that we need to get this issue out of the way and get the pain over with, I say, this will not finish with today’s vote, because there will be amendments to reverse the proposal when we do reach the White Paper.
I say to this House and I say to colleagues, for the sake of the Liberal Democrats, for the sake of this Government, for the sake of Parliament, please vote against these proposals tonight.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
I stand here with some trepidation in the sense that, in 2004, I made a speech in a similar debate and many of my colleagues howled at me and did not agree with much that I said. In those days, my Committee—the Select Committee on Education—had carried out an inquiry into top-up fees and had come out in favour of them. Of course, the majority was only five. I think that Select Committee report did have some influence.
I do not regret either the Select Committee report or my vote that day. However, I want to take us back briefly, so that we can try to learn something from history. We had a debate then because, with all-party agreement, we had set up the Dearing report. I have to say that Dearing was a far better choice to do such a report than Lord Browne, who produced the more recent one. The Dearing report essentially argued that if we want to move from an elite system of higher education to a mass system, somebody has to pay. In his view, the cost should be fairly distributed within society between the taxpayer, the individual who benefits and employers. That was Dearing’s opinion.
We must all confront the fact that what we are talking about today and have discussed over past years is how to get that balance right. I do not think that anyone would want to go back to the days when the state paid everything or have a situation in which the student pays everything. I have to say, in the light of the Secretary of State’s remarks, that employers have never been very willing to pay their share. Since 2004, we have developed a system in which there is a fair balance. However, I must remind the House that we—including my dear friend the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), the former Secretary of State for Education and Skills—did not get it entirely right. We rushed the response to Dearing and got it wrong. We were rightly criticised for that, but we did get it right over time. That is why we had a second reaction and had to go for top-up fees—variable fees. That is when we got it right and I want to learn the lesson from that.
Policy made speedily and on the hoof is not good policy. I admire the speech made by the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland). This piece of legislation is being rushed through in a way that is a disgrace to parliamentary procedure, to this House and to higher education. Are we the best in the world at automobile production? I do not think we are. Are we the finest in banking? I do not think we are. We could list the sectors in which we are not world class, but we are clearly world class when it comes to higher education.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
The hon. Gentleman rightly spoke about the importance of employers paying their contribution towards higher education. Does he therefore support the University and College Union’s proposal for a business education tax that would essentially be a corporation tax on the 4% of the biggest companies that benefit directly from graduates? That would generate £3.9 billion for higher education and would mean that we could scrap tuition fees altogether.
Mr Sheerman
I listened very carefully to that. It is an interesting idea. The timetable that the Government have put on this procedure means that we will not be able to consider serious ideas such as that.
I have some reservations about a graduate tax. The Select Committee has considered a graduate tax, as have other people, but there are some formidable difficulties with it. That is not to say that a graduate tax is impossible, but I can honestly say that we have not had time to develop it fully. That is true. In the same way, the proposals on which we will be voting today have not been thought through or mulled over, and the consequences of them have not been considered.
Someone asked what procedure we would like there to be. We have a procedure, which involves introducing a piece of legislation, publishing a Green Paper and discussing the proposals. When the Government have firmed up their ideas, a White Paper is published. During that process, there is discussion with the people who work in universities, who study in universities and who do wonderful research in our universities. There is actually discussion with the community. Can hon. Members imagine not talking to people in any other sectors on which we legislate?
Andrew Bridgen
I thought we just did talk to the electorate. We had a general election and the hon. Gentleman’s party lost.
Mr Sheerman
We tend to get passionate in debates on such things. In fact nobody won the election. The Conservative party did not win the election because it did not get a majority. I was reflecting on that matter. When I used to teach politics in a university, I can remember many people arguing that it would be wonderful to have a coalition because it would temper the debate. People would not rush into daft policy because the minority party would say, “Hold your horses. We’re not sure of this. Let’s think carefully, let’s do research and let’s talk to the people in the sector.” That is what we thought a coalition Government might do. I do not know if I was ever really persuaded of what a coalition would do. I believe that coalition Government leads to weak leadership, weak Government and some people getting their way by trampling on democracy. The higher education sector in this country is the best in the world. I think it is better than in America. The US might get more international students but, pound for pound, professor for professor, student for student, we have the best system in the world.
Charlie Elphicke
The hon. Gentleman is making a very principled speech. Does he agree that if the election had been won by the Labour party, the chances are that it would have implemented the Browne review?
Mr Sheerman
I do not believe that at all. Let me be straight with the hon. Gentleman. I believe that there is a great deal of strength in the Browne report. It refers to a deferred payment system, which is not a bad system. There are some good elements in the report. I like the section on part-time students and the fact that we will no longer pay a massive interest subsidy to people who do not need it in terms of the zero interest rate. There are some good things in Browne. If we could have had a conversation about the matter, we might, for once, have got some all-party agreement on the side of higher education, which is absolutely central to the future wealth, progress and happiness of this country—happiness is the favour of the moment, is it not?
If we pass the legislation, we will make some mistakes today that will punish people in this country, demoralise higher education and put us down the league in terms of our university sector. I hope that hon. Members vote against the measure tonight.
Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con)
I am grateful for the contribution of the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) because he gave the lie to the Opposition’s argument. There is a great deal of agreement between the two sides, and I shall turn to that in a moment.
What worries me most is that the entire tenor of the debate is doing more to put off aspirant students than anything contained in the proposals. Government Members and those on the Opposition Benches who had the opportunity to go to university are, I am sure, deeply conscious of the privilege that we have enjoyed. Those of us who have but one or two generations of university attendants in our families are also aware of the advantages we have received as a result of that. To divide the debate artificially along the lines of those who are in favour of social mobility and those who are not is to misunderstand what we are trying to do.
I take my hat off to the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) whose passion for social mobility is undeniable. However, he had 13 years in which he played a long and influential role in a Government under whom social mobility went backwards. The gap between rich and poor widened. I do not doubt the passion and integrity of Labour Members who wish to see social mobility increase—that is the case among Government Members—but they have had their opportunity and it did not work, and we must try again.
Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab)
The latest evidence on social mobility is based on a comparison between those born in 1958 and those born in 1970. Does the hon. Gentleman think it is right to say that people who were 27 years old when the previous Government were elected should be blamed for that?
Ben Gummer
I am afraid that I do not get the full gist of the hon. Lady’s intervention. All I know is that every single study that has been done on social mobility and the gap between rich and poor under the previous Government has shown a slowing of social mobility and a widening of the gap.
Andrew Bridgen
The right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) made an impassioned speech about social mobility, claiming that he knew more about it than anyone else. Perhaps he does, because he knows that social mobility runs in both directions given his extremely chequered history in office.
Ben Gummer
I happen to be one of the Government Members who admires the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough for the forthright way in which he stuck up for his principles in the previous Government. His passion is shared on both sides of the House, and I hope that we can contribute to the debate in that manner.
To my mind, the question is threefold. First, how do we widen and maintain access to higher education and participation across the spectrum? Secondly, as the hon. Member for Huddersfield said, how do we maintain and increase funding for our excellent universities? Thirdly, how do we do this within the boundary of the deficit? That has been forgotten by Labour Members and the fact is that if we do not deal with the deficit now, there will not be an economy and there will be no jobs into which graduates can go. There is no point, therefore, in constructing a policy that does not create jobs at the end of the road.
I address this issue critically and with some scepticism because some years ago I was in favour of free tuition. I have talked to the students in my constituency and I have talked to those at the new university in my constituency, and I have had very productive discussions with both groups. I pay tribute to those at the students union of university campus Suffolk, who have taken a very constructive approach. They understand the difficulty that the country is in, and understand also that students must make a contribution of some degree. They and I, and many Government Members and Labour Members, agree that whatever scheme comes in must ensure that access is widened. That is the litmus test. Within that, we must also ensure that funding is maintained for universities. The proposals put forward at the weekend will mean that the 25% of poorest students will do better under this system than under the current one, as was confirmed this morning by the IFS in a radio interview on the “Today” programme. That is the positive effect on social mobility, and it therefore ticks that box.
What, then, of university funding? University campus Suffolk is about 18 months or two years old. It is one of the newest higher education institutions in the country. It is a fantastic institution. For one that is still so young, it is already building several excellent areas of research capability, especially in regenerative medicine. I pay tribute to the provost, Mike Sacks, who is an inspirational man. I had a long discussion with him and, for me, the continuation of university campus Suffolk is critical to my voting in favour of these proposals; if that will not be the case, I cannot support them. I raised that point with him the other day and he felt that the degree of Government funding should be slightly more. However, on the basis of what he has been told and the comprehensive spending review, he said, “I am confident as I can be that we can move forward with our plans and ambitions under the proposed scheme.” I therefore feel confident, apropos the institution in my constituency, that I can support these proposals, because the leaders of the university have the ability to do the extraordinary things that they plan with the scheme that is on the table.
I have several questions for the Minister, to which I hope he will reply at some point. I have an issue about how foundation courses will be dealt with. I should like to understand about long courses, not only those in medicine but those such as architecture where it might be problematic for small practices to pay students’ fees in later years. We need a bit more clarity about visas for international students so that international income can be guaranteed. The data and transparency side of the deal must be fleshed out a bit so that students can understand what they are getting into.
I have one final question, and that is about an alternative. Many Government Members, while listening to these debates, have asked to see what alternative there is. Some alternatives have been put forward by the NUS. Its alternative seems to change every few weeks, but at least it has one. It seems that the Leader of the Opposition also understood that there had to be an alternative. He said on 29 June:
“You’re right to point out the practical issues… and that is why I want to consult widely before publishing detailed plans later this year.”
We now have a few weeks left before the end of this year, and I have not seen a detailed plan. For those coalition colleagues who are having difficulty with this proposal, I understand their problem in many ways, because there is no alternative for them to consult. Her Majesty’s Opposition have provided nothing for them to look at. In the absence of that, we must look at the plans that have been given.
Let me offer some counterfactuals. Do we cut university funding and not increase fees? If we put student fees up only to £5,000, which was one option mooted by Labour Members, Universities UK suggests that student numbers would go down by 25%. Alternatively, do we go for a graduate tax? The Leader of the Opposition has suggested that a graduate tax would appear to be so like a student loan system that it is hard to understand the difference between the two.
Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP)
Because time is worryingly short, given the importance of what is being discussed and the fact that so many Members wish to contribute, I will keep my remarks as brief as possible. Although I have much to say, I hope to accommodate others as best I can.
We need only look outside our windows, not just today but over the past few weeks, to see the strength of feeling that has been generated by this issue. I would like to offer my support to those students, many of whom are from my own constituency, who have come here to make a peaceful and reasonable protest. I have substantial sympathy for the case made by the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) about a serious conversation and a greater degree of consensus on the issue.
For me, the whole future of the high-tech, high-value-added economy to which we all subscribe depends very much on equality and access to third-level education. The Government have chosen—I reiterate the word “chosen”—to subject students who wish to study in England to the highest fees in the western world outside the United States. In my brief comments, I want to draw attention to how much—or should I say, how little?—consideration has been given to the impact that these measures will have on Northern Ireland, students from Northern Ireland, and indeed the devolved regions and students from those places as well. A large number of students from Northern Ireland, particularly from my own constituency, undertake their studies at universities in England and will therefore be subject to the higher fees. Indeed, in Northern Ireland nearly a third of our students move outside Northern Ireland; in my constituency, that percentage is even higher. As such, there is likely to be a dramatic increase in the cost to the Northern Ireland Executive—it has been placed at close to £30 million —in order to meet the generated costs.
Pete Wishart
Does the hon. Gentleman share my disappointment that this Government have given absolutely no consideration to the impact that this has on the devolved nations, including Scotland? Will he join me in trying to encourage the Government to think as much as possible about what these plans will do to Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales? So far they have given that no thought whatsoever.
Dr McDonnell
I agree with the hon. Gentleman. It is difficult for those of us who come here attempting to encourage devolution and work to create a bridge between the devolved Governments in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales and the Government here in this House, because this action in many ways erodes and undermines the devolution that has taken place.
That is compounded by the problems with the Barnett formula and the implications for Barnett formulation. The consequential cuts to university teaching budgets have already been passed on to the Executive, so we are being hit twice in advance of any changes that might be made to student fee arrangements. We need considerable clarity on the new arithmetic that is being used in Barnett formulation if we are to understand the knock-on effects of the proposals.
Why should the Northern Ireland Executive face the penalisation of students through the student funding proposals, while their budget is already being penalised through the Barnett formula? We are forced to tread the nearly impossible path of protecting our students who wish to study at universities in England, while providing the funding that is necessary to sustain the universities in Northern Ireland. All too often, the argument is framed only in terms of the impact of the measures on England, rather than in the context of the devolved nations.
Thanks to Social Democratic and Labour party colleagues who have served in the Northern Ireland Assembly and as Ministers in previous Northern Ireland Executives, there has been since devolution a reduction in the number of people who pay fees. We reduced the amount of money that people had to pay and we were the first to bring back student grants to widen access for those on the margins and those who are impoverished in our society. That shows that progressive elements can be injected into the existing system without having to triple tuition fees or radically alter the system.
The measures proposed by the coalition Government will place enormous pressure on universities in Northern Ireland to raise their fees to match the fees in England.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I understand that the proportion of students from Northern Ireland who go across the water is up to a third. There will be an impact on the Northern Ireland Assembly and on its budget. There will be an impact on moneys that are already set aside, and we have made no allowance for that.
Dr McDonnell
The hon. Gentleman endorses exactly the point that I was making—we will be hit both ways. My party has campaigned ardently to protect the cap on fees for Northern Ireland universities, but we would be naive to ignore these measures. When fees go up in English universities, it will have a knock-on effect and fees will inevitably go up for Queen’s university and the university of Ulster.
As I am sure you will have read between the lines of what I am saying, Mr Speaker, we do not believe that the measures are the right way to go about managing third-level education. We are not persuaded that they will improve access to higher education, particularly for those on the margins. We must oppose the measures, because we do not know what the fallout for Northern Ireland will be. We have set third-level education as a matter of the highest priority. We believe that the high-tech, high value-added economy that we want to see built in Northern Ireland can be delivered only through a high standard of third-level education that is accessible to all. Again, I repeat that it should be accessible, in particular, to bright young people from disadvantaged backgrounds, who struggle already to enter third-level education—these measures will further cut off such people.
The Government will cut spending on higher education and place the burden of payment on future generations of students, who, as they begin their careers, will face mountainous debts that they will spend much of their lives clearing. I was once a medical student, but I cannot imagine any medical student or student of architecture—as the hon. Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) suggested—now emerging from university with debts of less than £100,000.
There is also the problem that educational maintenance allowance has been withdrawn. That will massively compound the crisis for many of our poorest potential students, who may forgo the option because the threat of debt is much too high. The proposed increases to student fees run counter to our vision for third-level education and we will therefore oppose the proposals today.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
This has not been the easiest of weeks, as I have wrestled with what is, to me, an incredibly important issue. We are all the sum of our experiences and our backgrounds. I say to the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) that it was outrageous to suggest that Members on the Government Benches do not understand people from ordinary backgrounds. I come from an ordinary background, as do many Government Members. I do not think that he enhanced the debate in the slightest.
I would prefer not to be making this speech on this issue, because I am a huge supporter of the coalition. I thought that the coalition was the right way to move forward and it has tackled some difficult issues with great speed and in the correct way. However, on this issue, the Government are wrong. I shall explain the particular problems that I have in a moment.
First, I will say something of my colleagues on the Government Benches who will vote in favour of the measures. Some of the criticism levelled at the people who support the measures has been incredibly unfair. The people who support the measures are not cruel or elitist, but have their own views and have come to their own hard-headed decision. They may think in different terms from me, but I do not like the way in which the debate has become polarised. I am sure that all hon. Members condemn the violence that has been associated with this issue.
I speak from my own experiences as a former schoolteacher, which I have mentioned on many occasions, and as the first person in my family to attend university—I know that I am not unique in that among hon. Members. I went to university on a full grant with all my tuition paid, shortly before tuition fees were introduced. I can only think about the impact that the proposed fees would have had on me and my family when I was growing up. Would my parents have encouraged me to attend university, had they thought I would come away with debts of £40,000 or £50,000? I do not think so. Similarly, many of the students whom I taught in deprived schools in Hull wanted to go to university, but when I encouraged them to do so, the response was often, “My dad says that we can’t afford to go to university.” That was after fees were introduced.
Since fees were introduced, the evidence has shown that although there has been widening participation, students from some backgrounds are not attending the best universities, as I said to the shadow Secretary of State. They choose where to attend based on money and finances, rather than on what is best for them. They often choose to stay at home.
Mrs Main
My hon. Friend is giving a very sensitive speech and I sympathise hugely. Indeed, I marched against student fees in 2004, because they opened a Pandora’s box. He is right that the fairest thing is not to deter people with up-front fees, but to have pay-later graduate contributions. Labour let that out of the box, and there is no going back.
Andrew Percy
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. There is, of course, a choice to be made, and Governments can make whatever choices they want to make on important issues such as this. However, I do not think that the case has been made for this proposal, and I shall go on to say a little about that in a moment.
I have a particular issue with the loss of funding to the arts and humanities. It is wrong for the Government to say that there is no value to the state in the arts and humanities. We lead the world in research in the arts and humanities, and the loss of funding in its entirety for those who want to pursue degrees in those subjects certainly does not sit well with me.
I accept that the mechanism that the Government are proposing to put in place could not be much more progressive. I believe that it is fair, and that it will protect the poorest students. However, I have made the point to Ministers on several occasions over the past few days that we have not won the argument on that basis. Many of the choices that young people make about higher education are based on perception, and there is a perception out there that this measure will lead to huge debts of £40,000 to £50,000 at least. We have not won the argument relating to that perception.
Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)
My hon. Friend is making some good points, but does he accept that one third of students will be better off? The progressive nature of the proposal means that some students will never pay off their debt unless their earnings take them into the higher-rate tax band. Surely that is an argument against what he has been saying.
Andrew Percy
A number of hon. Members have made that very point today, and I accept that the principle of tripling fees—in many cases, they will go up not to £6,000 but to £7,000, £8,000 or £9,000—means that the system is progressive. My concern is that we have not had a proper debate. We have not had time to consider the options and we have not had time to have a sensible, grown-up debate—
Andrew Percy
I am not going to give way again, as I have only three minutes left and other Members wish to speak in this important debate.
My major concern is that, in the public’s mind, we have not made the case for trebling tuition fees. I also have a huge concern about where our young people are going to end up going to university. Everyone knows that this is not just about tuition fees; we also have to take into account living costs. Speaking from personal experience, I was at university on a full grant and had no tuition fees to pay, but I left with considerable additional debts on my credit cards and so on. It is just the same for students today, and that is going to continue. When we look at students’ debt issues, we need to take into account not only tuition fees but living costs and the other debts that students inevitably rack up while they are at university.
Andrew Percy
I am not going to give way, because a lot of Members want to contribute to the debate.
I have struggled with this issue, as I hope Members will understand from my speech. I urge the Government to row back a little bit, to think again, to delay this decision today and to give proper, grown-up, sensible consideration to all the possible alternatives. I accept that the Opposition might well have found themselves in exactly the same position, and that they have not offered a credible alternative to this proposal. I am in a strange position, as I have said to my local paper many times over the last couple of days, because I do not have a credible alternative to it either. Perhaps I am therefore making an emotional decision rather than a hard-headed one, but I urge the Government to think again and to come back to the issue next year, in six months’ time, when we have had a proper conversation about it. We get to do this only once, and if we cede the principle of £9,000 tuition fees, I will be deeply concerned about the message it will send to people out there. I need no more proof than the e-mail I received this week from one of my constituents, Cathy from Burton-upon-Stather. I am sure that she and her son will be supported, but the message that has gone out because of the debate on this issue is that she will not be able to afford to send her child to university. I can only wrestle with my conscience and stick to what I believe, and my view is that the Government have not made their case. I will not be supporting the proposal this evening.
Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)
I want to start by dealing with the main issue, before moving on to give the Liberal Democrats some advice.
The main issue is that the Conservatives say that there is no choice: they have to raise fees to make up the funding shortfall. There is a choice, however. They could choose not to cut the funding budget by 80%, and they could choose not to privatise university teaching. Perhaps this proposal is what one might expect from the Conservatives, but students and their parents trusted the Liberal Democrats when they voted for them, and they did not expect this. They believed Liberal Democrats when they said that they would oppose rises in fees; they believed Liberal Democrats when they said that they would get rid of fees; and they believed Liberal Democrats when they said that they wanted to be fair. I am sure that when the candidates, who are now Members of Parliament sitting on the Liberal Democrat Benches, spoke to students and promised to be on their side, they meant it. They probably did not know that, in April, their leadership was conspiring to drop that pledge if they got into government. When the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr Clegg) looked into the camera and promised to be fair and not to raise fees, he did not tell them what was in his head.
Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD)
Does the hon. Lady agree that if the previous Government had not left us in a desperate financial plight, on the edge of bankruptcy, we would not be discussing the problem today?
Emily Thornberry
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that point because it is central and needs to be tackled. When the majority of people voted either Labour or Liberal, they voted for political parties that, at the time, stood for paying back the deficit responsibly, cutting not too deeply and too fast, but in the context of growth and jobs. Frankly, people who voted Liberal Democrat are desperately disappointed in the turn-about not only on tuition fees but on what we should do for the economy and what is best for the nation. The Liberal Democrats will not be forgiven.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
Will the hon. Lady give way?
Emily Thornberry
If hon. Members will forgive me, I will not give way again—I want to get through my speech quickly so that others have an opportunity to speak.
As soon as he got into power, the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam dumped his principles and pushed his Ministers into a new policy of tripling fees. Ministers then discussed abstaining from that policy, which they had developed themselves, and now they say that they will vote for it. The majority of people who voted Liberal or Labour did not vote for that.
Neither did people vote for cutting the education maintenance allowance. City and Islington college, as Ofsted confirms, is outstanding. It is a beacon college. Fifty-seven per cent.—2,500 kids—who go to City and Islington get the highest rate of EMA. Those are the free school dinner kids, about whom Government Members cry such crocodile tears. They will lose their money. How many will have the opportunity to do their A-levels and even apply to Oxford and Cambridge? People who voted Labour and Liberal Democrat did not vote for cutting EMA, for raising fees or for the terrible cuts that will decimate our communities.
The Lib Dem leadership has double-crossed the electorate and is not fit for office. The question for Back-Bench Liberal Democrats is whether they have the backbone to vote against the policy. Do they have the backbone to vote for their principles? Never mind pledges and promises, the debate is about principles. As politicians, we cannot say, “I’ve got a principle. I keep it in my pocket. I take it out occasionally and I polish it before putting it back in my pocket.” Equally, if we get into government, we cannot take the principle out of our pocket and chuck it in the gutter. We have to apply our principles to power and do the right thing.
I have seen an e-mail from the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson). It was written yesterday and is about principles. She says:
“My view remains that the best solution is for higher education to be paid for from general taxation. Sadly, the voters did not agree, and with fewer than 1 in 10 MPs in Parliament, the Liberal Democrats are simply not in a position to deliver on all of our manifesto policies.”
Well, compromise. Do it in the correct way by voting against tripling fees tonight. If people voted for the Lib Dems on the basis that fees would be cut or not go up, it is not consistent to vote for them to be tripled. Surely anyone can see that. If the Lib Dems do not vote against that and the terrible change goes through, any claim that they ever had to be the party of fairness is gone for ever, and they will never be forgiven.
Mr Sam Gyimah (East Surrey) (Con)
The hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) decided to give us a short history lesson. He reminded the House of the debate on tuition fees here in 2004. That Bill passed by five votes. However, he did not say that, during that debate, we heard the same apocalyptic messages that we are hearing in the Chamber today. The issue then was fees increasing from £1,000 to £3,000. No Government Member says with relish that we should increase fees, but it is important to note that six years on from those debates, 45% of people go to university and 200,000 people want to but cannot go. The hon. Gentleman should therefore have told us that, although we were worried at the time, many of those worries proved unfounded.
Mr Gyimah
May I develop my argument, please?
I listened to the Secretary of State’s argument. I like the fact that he has wrestled with his conscience, flirted with a graduate tax and finally come to the decision that the fairest policy is a graduate contribution. That is in stark contrast to the Opposition, who say that they had the fairest and most balanced solution to the student problem when they did not. What is unfair about the university system they have left us with is that for many people, the costs of going to university outweigh the benefits. That is why graduate unemployment is at 6% when it should not be.
Tristram Hunt
We are having the astronomical rise in fees because of the 80% cut in the teaching grant. We are dealing today with an assault on the entire ethos of the British university.
Mr Gyimah
May I develop my argument?
Why is that outcome important? Unless we understand the outcomes we want from our universities, the debate on fees is totally out of context. I began as a sceptic. I adopted the view that we perhaps needed to row back and have a system that involved fewer people going to university. I thought that a system of grants could be better, or that we could charge less. However, the truth is that higher participation in higher education is here to stay, which is good. We must therefore work out how we can continue to fund that, and how to ensure that our universities remain world class and experiences such as mine at university—if parents cannot contribute, the student is really stuck—are not a key factor in the equation.
My hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) mentioned a mother who is worried that she is unable to fund her child’s education. He is right to raise that concern, because a lot of people will feel that they must dip their hands into their pockets to pay the fees. However, more than anything else, the policy shifts the burden from parents—students pay when they have graduated and when they benefit.
Andrew Percy
The situation is that working class families, who are least able to support their children at university, will bear the additional costs. That was my point.
Mr Gyimah
If any lie has been perpetrated in this debate, it is that working class children who want to university cannot get there—[Interruption.] May I finish? The truth is that our education system is so bad that for a lot of underprivileged kids, the whole concept of university is simply academic.
Mr Gyimah
I want to develop my argument.
Let us look at the proposal in simple terms. Before I went to university, if someone had said to me, “Sam, if you want to improve your life, I will give you money so you can go and do that. When you finish, come back to me only if you have found a job. I’m not going to charge you any interest unless you’re earning more than a certain amount, but I want you to improve your life, so go ahead and do so,” I would have bitten their hand off.
Mr Gyimah
No, thanks.
We have also seen the old notion of class warfare revamped this week. I saw it mentioned somewhere that Harvard had better access than some of our higher education institutions. What was omitted in that article was the fact that Harvard charges huge fees, and that is how it funds access. I am not saying that we want to go the way of Harvard, but there is a way to have high participation and fees and still ensure that the least advantaged make it.
That cannot happen just through fees. We need to reform our education system in total. I am glad that the Secretary of State mentioned the need for further education colleges to get more involved in the delivery of higher education. I am pleased that the 40% of students who are part-time students, who have previously had to fund themselves, will now have access to funding through our current policy proposal. I am pleased also that he mentioned that we will help people make their investment decision about which university to go to, through information about which courses will lead to employment and benefit them and whether they will ever see their tutors. Those things drive equality in the education system.
The motion is purely about fees, but fees are just one part of an entire package of higher education reform. Rather than play politics, we have to examine the whole package before casting judgment on it.
Heidi Alexander
I thank the hon. Gentleman for finally giving way. Does he not accept that for students from poorer backgrounds, the huge debt that they could now face will act as a greater disincentive to go to university than it will for students from more affluent backgrounds?
Mr Gyimah
The truth is that under our current system, it is the middle classes who benefit the most. The people whom the hon. Lady defends are not getting to university, and we need to reform the system so that university is not the same for everyone—three years on campus, costing the same amount of money. There need to be more options for people to get to university over time.
Tony Blair gave an aspirational target of 50% going to university, and I actually like that aspiration. I am glad that, with this policy, we can continue to drive aspiration forward. The past was not right, because there was no utopia of social mobility. The present is letting students down, because they are not getting jobs—
Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)
I am very grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this debate, particularly as a former Higher Education Minister.
Young people outside this building are deeply angered, concerned and frustrated by the debate that we are having, and it is right that we all reflect on a generation that may inherit something far less than many of us in the Chamber did. Many of us grew up in a period of largely full employment and pretty generous pension schemes into which the system had paid over a sustained period. Many benefited from free education, which is at the heart of this discussion.
Mr Lammy
Not at this point.
The decision that we made in 2004 was not that we should move away from free education, because of course it was not free. Taxpayers were pooling resources to contribute to the higher education of this country. We decided, alongside the taxpayer, to ensure that individual students and universities made a contribution to higher education.
Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that those who argue that students need not be frightened of £9,000 a year fees, because they will not be paying up front, entirely fail to recognise that for someone who comes from an immediate family in which no one has ever been to university, or maybe even stayed at school past 16, the prospect of debts of £50,000, or possibly £100,000 if they want to be a doctor, must be off-putting? Coalition Members have to put themselves in the position of those ordinary families.
Mr Lammy
I will not give way because I want to make some progress.
That is substantially more than the £3,000 we introduced. The essential ingredient of this debate is that we are breaking the partnership between student, state and university. We are saying that the state can step out of the arrangement, and that the arrangement should be entirely between the student and the university. It is my contention that that is unacceptable.
When we set up the Browne review, we specifically asked Lord Browne, in the terms of reference, to look also at the fourth constituent part of the arrangement that also benefits. I am talking about employers. Multinational companies in this country benefit greatly from graduates, so I am disappointed that Lord Browne spent effectively 300 words on them. It was heartening to hear the Secretary of State mention employers; I just wish he had not done it so late, and I wish he could attach a figure to what their contribution should be. If this is a genuine partnership, it must be one between students, the state, universities and employers. That is why this is so unfair and why people outside are so angry.
It is right for students to say, “What do we get for that £9,000?” There should be something before the House explaining what they will get for that money. Let us remember that, because universities had been so badly underfunded under a previous Conservative Government, the fee we introduced was topping up a big black hole in university finances. In fact, much of the tuition fee we introduced went to lecturers’ pay and salaries. Many people still believe that they cannot fully identity what they got for their contribution, so as we move to £9,000, should not the Government come forward and say, “For this money, these are the contact hours you will have with your lecturer. For this money, this is the size of your tutorial. For this money, we will be able to tell you what your employment prospects will be afterwards”? But there is nothing before the House about what the student gets for the contribution they are making.
A young girl approached me this week who wanted to go to my old university—the School of Oriental and African Studies. She wants to study development studies. She is a young black woman in my constituency. However, owing to the message the Government are sending on arts and humanities, and on the worth of doing development studies at SOAS, she is doubting whether it is worth coming out with debt to the tune of £40,000 and doing a subject such as development studies. I say to the Minister for Universities and Science that surely we recognise that we live in a multi-disciplinary, inter-disciplinary world. We do not just want scientists; we want those who study the humanities. We see in universities cross-disciplinary activity producing beneficial results, so why has he chosen to withdraw funds from arts and the humanities and teaching in this manner?
Mr Lammy
I have one minute left, so I will not give way. We will hear from the right hon. Gentleman later—[Interruption.] I have one minute left. I will not give way. The clock will not stop.
We have seen what our best universities are doing on access. Why should the London borough of Richmond send more young people to Oxbridge than Barnsley, Rochdale, Middlesbrough, Hartlepool and Stoke combined? That is unacceptable—and this measure will make it worse. It is unacceptable that 21 colleges across Oxford and Cambridge did not take on a black student. What will this do to address that problem?
That is why the people outside this Chamber are so angry and frustrated. If the Minister believes that this debate will stop as a result of the vote tonight, he is mistaken. It will continue, and I will join the students and their parents in the protest.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I call Mr Steve Brine, but I should say that he cannot just sit and smile; he has to stand up to indicate that he wishes to speak. Fortunately, I thought that he might want to speak.
Mr Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)
Indeed I do. I apologise for that, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank you for calling me.
I am a new Member in this House—obviously—but there are some things that I have learned in the short number of months that I have been here. When proposals come before us, I always ask two questions: first, can we stick with the status quo and bury our heads in the sand; and secondly, can we put off until tomorrow what needs to be done today? The conclusion that I have come to on the proposals before us is that the answer to both those questions is no. The current funding model for higher education is simply not providing enough money to support the growing number of students who want to go on to higher education. As it stands, we turned away just under 200,000 young people this year. Funding per student is now lower in real terms than it was 20 years ago. As someone once said, “We can’t go on like this.” [Interruption.] Opposition Members may want to listen.
As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said yesterday, we cannot allow our universities to fall behind the rest of the world. India is building new technology institutes and new universities, and in the next 15 years the number of graduates from Chinese universities is expected to grow fivefold, so what do we do? Do we turn millions more young people—people like me—away from aspiring to go to university? I do not want to send that message out from this House. If that is what the Opposition have decided, that is their decision, but it is certainly not mine. Do we just increase state funding to higher education, so that fees can either stay as they are or, as some in this House would like, be abolished altogether? We know that we cannot do that because, once again, the country faces ruin after a Labour Government.
As Mr Blair’s new Government proved, simply increasing the money from the Exchequer was not possible in ’97, when we had a fantastic economy, which was bequeathed to Labour, and it is certainly not possible with the wrecked economy that we face today.
Mr Brine
No thank you.
I strongly supported setting up the Browne review. I did not sign any pledges about what it might or might not recommend—I think that was the right decision—and I welcome a new system in which no students will pay up-front fees. It is also a system in which, for the first time, part-time students will pay no fees up front. That is a real development. I welcome lifting the repayment figure from £15,000 to £21,000, and I very much welcome the repayment figure being linked to earnings.
I am new here, and I have wrestled with this decision like no other. I opposed the £1,000 fee in 1998 after the Dearing report, because I feared that it would breach the principle of free higher education. I said that there would be no turning back, and I think that I was right about that. I was not in this House then, but my party opposed top-up fees in 2003-04, because we feared that they would restrict access to higher education. I have to say that I think we were wrong, and we have been proved so, because the number wanting to go keeps going up and up.
Mr MacNeil
If the hon. Gentleman is such a fan of tuition fees of £9,000 per annum, will he pay £9,000 in retrospect for every year that he was at university? He is not duty bound to do so, given that he was not charged when he was at university, but he can freely pay now. He is at liberty to do so. If he so strongly believes in the principle of paying tuition fees, will he now pay £9,000 for each year that he was at university?
Mr Brine
I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has access to my bank accounts, but if he did, he might not have asked that question.
Whether or not we all agree that 50% of young people should go to university, that is a decision that millions of young people and families across the country choose to take. That is the situation that the House faces. I hope that these proposals will put higher education funding and student finance on a sustainable footing, improve the quality of university degrees and put a progressive support package in place for students that will not deter access on account of the absence of up-front fees.
The Minister will be disappointed in me—I am glad to see him back in his place—if I do not make a point once again about Aimhigher. I think it works and that it has been proved to work, and it worries me that it is disappearing. I urge the Secretary of State and the Minister for Universities and Science to revisit this decision or, at the very least, to do more to safeguard the functions of Aimhigher. Aimhigher Hampshire is based at the university of Winchester in my constituency; it does a very good job.
Mr Willetts
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way—unlike the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy). I would like to assure him that Aimhigher has produced some valuable initiatives and that individual universities can carry them forward. Indeed, under the new requirements we are introducing for the Office for Fair Access, we will expect them to take initiatives to broaden access. The best of Aimhigher will thus survive in a new form.
Mr Brine
I am glad to hear that. The Minister knows that I will be back and will hold him to that assurance. I also urge him—perhaps he will come back to it when he winds up the debate—to ensure that what universities such as the university of Winchester charge is not pegged at £6,000. They must be free to charge where they see fit within the £6,000 to £9,000 range.
I take no great ideological pleasure from today’s decision, but to govern is, indeed, to choose. I agree with the Deputy Prime Minister that to govern is not to abstain, but to choose. I shall support the proposals. We can support or not support only the proposals before us—not those that we would like to be before us. I will support them.
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak against the motion on behalf of all my constituents, especially the teenagers who have e-mailed me over the last few days asking me to do so. I want to talk about what the Government’s plans will mean for many of those young people, if not all of them.
In a Liberal Democrat press release during the election campaign, the Deputy Prime Minister said:
“If fees rise to £7,000 a year, as many rumours suggest they would, within five years some students will be leaving university up to £44,000 in debt. That would be a disaster.”
I am sure that this is going to be the only time I find myself saying this, but “I agree with Nick.” Even if most universities charge the minimum of £6,000, it will still be a disaster. If most of the more prestigious universities charge £9,000, it would be an even bigger disaster.
For many young people in my constituency, fees of £27,000 will prove the ultimate deterrent to carrying on their education and realising their academic potential. If their ambition were strong enough, they would still find themselves having to think very seriously about going to a local university—to avoid the living expenses—rather than to the best university that would accept them, based on their ability. Indeed, comments made by the Secretary of State in the last debate on this subject lead me to believe that this is exactly what he intends people to do. I find that totally hypocritical, given that he had the opportunity to live in Cambridge and attend a top university.
Do not get me wrong, Madam Deputy Speaker, as many of the local higher education providers in my constituency are excellent for both the quality of teaching and the student experience. The university of Sunderland was recently declared at The Times higher education awards as the top university for the student experience. That does not mean, however, that staying local offers the best possible educational opportunities for everyone in my constituency. Many of my constituents are able enough to earn a place in a highly sought-after course elsewhere in the country, and it is imperative that they should feel able to apply to such institutions to study such courses without their main focus being on the potential cost.
Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con)
The hon. Lady talks about top universities, but the Russell group of universities says:
“There has been much misinformation about the effect of fees on access. The evidence is clear that fees do not deter poorer students from university—particularly when combined with a progressive repayment system, precisely as the Government is proposing.”
Does that not destroy her argument?
Mrs Hodgson
Not at all. That is rubbish, and I totally disagree with it. As hon. Members have said, the proposal will put off people from working-class backgrounds going to any university, let alone a top one.
Of course the headline cost—the £44,000 spoken of by the Deputy Prime Minister—will not remain static. I have done my sums, and assuming my constituents graduate with a debt of £40,000 and are lucky enough to find a job that pays £21,000 in a market ravaged by the Government’s cuts, that debt will start to creep up. We hear that the interest rate will be 2.2% plus inflation. I note that for the purpose of raking money in, the Government have chosen the retail prices index, yet for paying out—say, in benefit uprating—they have chosen the lower measure of the consumer prices index. If we add the current RPI to 2.2%, we get 7.1%, which will mean an interest payment of £2,840 per annum on a debt of £40,000. To keep up with that interest and stop the debt rising, a graduate would need to earn more than £52,000 a year.
Most people in this country, graduate or otherwise, would consider themselves lucky to earn £52,000 by the age of 52, let alone 22. Where is the sense in the Government’s proposals if many graduates will have a bigger debt at the end of 30 years than they did when they graduated? On my calculations, I estimate that large numbers of students will have their debt written off under the proposals. How is that a better way of doing things? At least under the previous system graduates were able to pay off their debts, if they were working, on average within 11 years.
Concessions have been outlined over the past couple of days, as they were when the matter was discussed in a debate in Westminster Hall secured by my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy). They must have been drawn up on the back of one of the Deputy Prime Minister’s ever-growing pile of empty fag packets, but their announcement gives me the impression that someone in the Government must recognise the damage that their plans will do to the life chances of many young people and to the wider economy. It beggars belief, therefore, that they are still pressing ahead with them.
Christopher Pincher
I do not know who has done the hon. Lady’s sums for her—possibly the shadow Chancellor—but they do not add up. Graduates in my constituency on a median salary of £24,000 are currently paying back £810 a year. Under the coalition’s proposals, they will be paying back £270 a year. For graduates, that is real practical help, which her party never gave.
Mrs Hodgson
I inform the hon. Gentleman that I did my sums myself. I have them here, and I will forward them to him so that he can see the truth of the matter.
The Government’s reckless behaviour in this and other areas of policy directly affecting young people, such as scrapping the EMA without proper scrutiny, shows that the policies are less about pragmatism and totally about dogmatism. Incidentally, I urge my hon. Friends to read the illuminating article in The Times—written in 2003, it must be said—by the current Secretary of State for Education. The article highlights exactly how the minds of those in this Administration work, and how they will be worse for our constituents than even the Thatcher Administration, who ruined lives and wrecked communities.
If Liberal Democrat Members file obediently through the Government Lobby tonight, their betrayal will not be forgotten, and they will never be taken seriously again by their constituents. For the sake of young people throughout England, I sincerely hope that they will manage to locate their spines between now and the putting of the Question, and will join me and other hon. Members in opposing this regressive and deeply divisive motion.
Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)
I welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate, although, like my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland), I wish that the Government had been persuaded not to press ahead with the plans, and that they had not been necessary.
I do not intend to speak for long, because I think I made it clear last week, during the Opposition day debate, where I stand on the issue of increasing tuition fees. I will vote against the proposed increase, and I was one of the signatories to the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West.
I take no pleasure in voting against the plans presented by my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary. In fact, in many ways I welcome some of the proposals that have followed the Browne review. Increasing the level at which graduates must pay back any money to £21,000 is certainly an improvement on the current £15,000 threshold. Treating part-time students in the same way as full-time students by not charging them any up-front tuition fees will be of benefit, and providing additional support for students from poorer backgrounds is also a step in the right direction. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has rightly confirmed that the proposals are more progressive than the current regressive tuition fees system. However, I will vote against an increase in tuition fees, simply because I think that a higher cap will discourage some young people from going to university in the future.
Paul Farrelly
I, too, signed the cross-party amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland). I am sorry that it was not selected.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned the Browne review. Coalition Front Benchers have made some play of rejecting the upper figure of £12,000, but does the hon. Gentleman agree that by also rejecting the clawback and the disincentive mechanism in the review, the coalition Government have made it more, not less, likely that the top fee of £9,000 will be charged?
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
I am pleased to learn that the hon. Gentleman will be going into the correct Lobby this evening. However, he has only dealt with half the equation. Can he explain to the people in his constituency—the people of Manchester—why he voted for an £80 million cut in the Manchester university fee as part of the £3 billion cut in university grants?
Mr Leech
That is not relevant to the debate, or to the point that I am trying to make. The proposals mean that the least well-off quarter of graduates will be better off than they are under the scheme introduced by the last Labour Government. However, the flaw that I see in the proposal of my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary is that no one goes to university believing that they will be among the bottom 25% of graduates. Their assumption will always be that they will have to pay off the whole of their student debt, although for a large proportion of them, that will never be the case. I believe that a number will be put off choosing to go to university in the first place.
Mr Leech
I will not give way a third time.
As I said earlier, I signed the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West. However, I also strongly support the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert). Along with most other Members who are graduates, I benefited from a free education, and left university with a very small amount of debt. I am not about to vote to leave future graduates with tens of thousands of pounds of debt. I hold to the old-fashioned principle that a university education benefits the country and the economy as well as the individual. Graduates who are successful and earn high wages after they leave university pay more taxes and repay the cost of their university education that way. I am therefore slightly disappointed that the amendment to which I have put my name has not been selected and will not be voted on, because that vote would have revealed which Members support the principle of free education, and Opposition Members would have had a chance to show their support for the existing unfair regressive fees system. We are not going to get that opportunity, however.
All we are getting from the Opposition is pathetic political opportunism. The House witnessed that last week, yesterday and this afternoon. The Leader of the Opposition has suggested he supports a graduate tax, but is not prepared to tell us how much it would cost and how many graduates would be worse off under his proposals. This week we are told that the shadow Chancellor has had a road to Damascus-style conversion to the concept of a graduate tax; either that or, more likely, he has had a North Korean conversion to the graduate tax. Both the Leader of the Opposition and the shadow Chancellor were members of the Cabinet that introduced the Browne review with the explicit intention of raising tuition fees. Nobody in this House or outside it should be duped into believing that Labour would not be proposing an increase in tuition fees if they were still in government. While I welcome their convenient conversion to opposing a rise in tuition fees, the House should be under no illusion: if they were in government they would be doing exactly the same as what is being done today.
Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)
I listened with great interest to the contribution of the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech), particularly when he talked about political opportunism. I seem to remember that being on every page of the Orange Book, the bible of the Liberal Democrats. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman should have a word with the Deputy Prime Minister about political opportunism.
I am conscious that I do not have much time to speak in this debate, which is a great pity. Yesterday we debated, at insufficient length, how much time we would have for today’s debate but, yet again, a Liberal henchman moved the closure motion at the behest of his Tory string-pullers. [Interruption.] Thank you.
I should declare an interest. My daughter is currently at university. She is studying a course involving applied theatre and education. The course will not exist after next year, however, because the university is cancelling it, as it is one of the courses the university will not have the funding for because of the 80% cuts.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
When my hon. Friend’s daughter made the decision to enrol on that course, did she follow the advice of the hon. Member for East Surrey (Mr Gyimah), who said young people should choose which course to study as an investment decision?
Robert Flello
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question, because the course my daughter chose is of great benefit to the community as it looks at applying theatre in places like prisons and special schools. She looked upon the course not as an investment for herself, but as an investment much more broadly.
Mr MacNeil
In Scotland, Labour’s tuition fees were abolished by the Scottish National party. Does the hon. Gentleman think that Labour made a mistake by putting tuition fees on to the political landscape?
Robert Flello
I knew that it would be a great gift to give way to the hon. Gentleman, but I think he knows the situation in Scotland well enough.
Staffordshire university and Keele university serve my constituency and the wider local area. Combined, they are looking at £100 million-plus of cuts: cuts that will affect every possible course, and certainly ones that greatly benefit my constituents. We have heard from Government Members that the cuts are all somehow the fault of the previous Labour Government—I am sure that they will all start shouting, “Yes” in a moment—but they seem to have forgotten the bankers. They have forgotten that it was the banks and the global banking crisis that got us into this mess and that other countries were looking to the previous Prime Minister and Chancellor for a way out of it. If the problems, which require such massive cuts and therefore these fees, are all about cutting the deficit, will Government Front Benchers say that in four years’ time—when they intend to have paid off the deficit—these proposals will be reversed and the money will go back into the higher education sector?
Robert Flello
No, I will not give way to any Government Member because they shamefully voted for the programme motion yesterday, so they clearly do not want any debate to take place.
Let us consider the impact on students. We are trying to raise aspiration in areas such as Stoke-on-Trent and wider north Staffordshire and to get more students into university. Indeed, in the past few years, the number of students from north Staffordshire going to university has gone up by more than a third, which is a huge increase. I have been contacted by a great number of students who are at university in and around north Staffordshire. Many constituents and families have been in touch. I have with me a handful of the e-mails I have received. I have also received many letters and callers to my office.
Let me quote from what Jasmine wrote to me. At 20, she is the eldest of four children. Her family are all professionals, being in the police force, the civil service or the army. Her mother is a social worker. Like many of my constituents, her family are good, decent, working people who work locally in and around north Staffordshire. Jasmine is currently at Staffordshire university and wants to be a teacher after she graduates—something she could not do if she did not have a degree. She tells me:
“I am enraged that the government is going to raise university fees”.
She receives only a maintenance loan because her parents work in areas such as social work and the police force and are not therefore able to fund her. Like many people in the Chamber and the wider community, they have children from a previous marriage who also need to be funded and taken into account.
Tristram Hunt
My hon. Friend’s constituency and mine share Staffordshire university, which is also dealing with the cuts to its university quarter being driven through by the Government. Why does he think the Government are so anti-university when every other nation in Europe is investing in its science and universities at this time of recession?
Robert Flello
My hon. Friend puts the point extremely well. I do not think the Government are anti-university per se, although we have heard some interesting comments from the hon. Member for East Surrey (Mr Gyimah), who said that our education system is “so bad”—perhaps he was following the Prime Minister’s lead in talking down British universities, students and teaching. I think they are more interested in promoting elitism.
Robert Flello
No, I will not, for reasons that I have stated. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman should have voted against the programme motion last night; then I would have given way.
Robert Flello
The same goes for the hon. Member for East Surrey.
Jasmine’s letter continues:
“This generation and the one following are the future of Britain and the government should be investing in them—not making it impossible for people to afford, grow and be educated.”
That is just one of many e-mails and letters I have received.
Is this feeling particular to students or to my students? No it is not. A ComRes poll for ITV said—if I can find it—
Robert Flello
No; I will not take the hon. Gentleman’s help. He can resume his seat.
A ComRes poll for ITV News found that 70% of the public agree that higher tuition fees will deter students from poorer backgrounds from going to university and that only 17% think they will not. A recent Ipsos MORI poll found that raising fees to £5,000 a year would deter almost half those from deprived backgrounds who would otherwise go on to higher education and that raising fees to £7,000 a year, let alone £9,000 a year, would cut the number who do so by nearly two thirds.
This is a shamefully short debate, because hon. Members should have had a proper opportunity to take part. I would have taken interventions had the Government not shamefully curtailed the time available. This debate will rage on outside this place among the disgusted people of this country. [Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. It is not necessary for Members of this House to count down. The clock is perfectly accurate. Although feelings are running very high and arguments are being put forcefully, courtesy can still be shown in this Chamber.
Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con)
We have heard much self-righteous indignation from the Opposition about the proposed rise in tuition fee levels, but no real acknowledgement of why these decisions are having to be made. The fundamental reason why the coalition Government are having to make difficult choices on public expenditure is the shocking state of the public finances left to us by the previous Government.
Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab)
Is it not the case that the UK spends only 0.7% of its gross domestic product on higher education, compared with the OECD average of 1%? So this is not an economic decision, but a political decision taken by the coalition.
Alok Sharma
This is an economic decision. The Labour party left us with a mess, they have absolutely no plan and they come here trying to oppose a fair policy that we are putting forward. The Opposition have talked about the proposed tuition fees increase “pulling the ladder” away from poorer students, but that clearly is not the case. Such talk is pretty rich coming from a party whose policies in government were pulling the ladder away from the whole country. In case Labour Members are suffering from collective amnesia, I should remind them that it was their party that first introduced tuition fees, that subsequently increased tuition fees threefold in 2004 and that cut hundreds of millions of pounds from higher education when in office. It was also their party that initiated the Browne review, because it knew that changes had to be made in higher education funding. In The Times of 13 November, the shadow Chancellor, who was the higher education Minister in 2004, was reported to have said that Labour should have gone for higher fees at that time, perhaps of £5,000 a year.
Gordon Birtwistle
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is a total disgrace that the previous Prime Minister has not been seen since May and has not returned to this Chamber to explain this and apologise to the students outside for putting them in this position?
Alok Sharma
I could not agree more with my hon. Friend, who makes a very good point. It is clear that Labour’s opposition to the change in tuition fees is all about party politics and opposition for its own sake.
Alok Sharma
No, I will not give way now. That approach comes from a party that appears to have no consistent or developed policy on higher education funding. The Leader of the Opposition, who is not in his place, has said that that Labour party policy is a “blank sheet of paper”. Well is it not time that he started scribbling on it? The Opposition have raised a number of objections to the proposed tuition fees increase. They say that it will put people off going to university, that it will have a negative impact on social mobility and that, overall, the increase is just not fair. Let us examine each of those points.
Will the increase put students off going to university? Tuition fees have been in place for more than a decade and the number of students has increased by 44%. Why the increase? It is because students realise that having a good degree adds value to their prospects and is a passport to a better job. OECD figures clearly indicate that UK graduates earn, on average, 50% more than those who finished education at A-level.
Alok Sharma
No, I will not just now because I want to make some progress. The proposed changes will be an important step in ensuring that the money follows the student and will go further towards making universities more accountable to students as customers.
I do not subscribe to the view that the proposal will reduce social mobility, because it ensures that no one has to pay anything up front and no one has to repay anything until they earn at least £21,000 a year, a 40% increase on the current figure. Everyone, whatever their background, will be able to take advantage of the opportunities offered by a university education.
Mr MacNeil
If the hon. Gentleman is such a supporter of tuition fees, will he pay £9,000 for every year that he was at university?
Alok Sharma
Another tax rise. That is what we get from the Opposition. Another tax rise. They left us with the biggest budget deficit of all time, and now the hon. Gentleman proposes that we increase taxes further. That is their answer to absolutely everything.
Let me continue with the proposed extra help. Through the national scholarship programme, the increase in maintenance grants and the required checks to ensure that universities take people from disadvantaged backgrounds before they are able to charge more than £6,000, social mobility will be further encouraged. But social mobility—
Alok Sharma
No, I will not give way, because I do not have much time left.
Social mobility starts at school, and a report in November 2008 by the Teaching and Learning Research Programme, called “Widening participation in higher education”, concluded that a lack of attainment at secondary school was the biggest factor in non-participation in higher education. So it is highly disappointing to see the OECD figures, published over the last few days, which show that secondary school pupils in the UK have fallen well behind their international counterparts, a fall presided over by the previous Government. Between 2000 and 2009, we slipped from seventh to 25th place in reading skills, from eighth to 28th in mathematics and from fourth to 16th in science. The Opposition are not in any position to lecture us on improving social mobility.
I urge all Members also to take note of all the university vice-chancellors and principals who, in a letter in The Daily Telegraph yesterday, expressed their fears that social mobility would be curtailed if the regulation were not passed this evening. They said:
“If the vote on Thursday fails, the alternative is likely to be a reduction in students numbers that would be enormously damaging to social mobility and would seriously hamper Britain’s ability to adapt to the economic needs of the future. We urge MPs and peers to support the Governments proposals.”
Are the proposals being discussed today fair? Well—[Hon. Members: “No!”] Well, we cannot continue with the current system. All parties agree, and that is why the former Labour Government proposed the Browne review in the first place. Labour seems to be flirting with the concept of a graduate tax.
Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend not agree that that flirtation with a graduate tax is short-term opportunism for which the Opposition will pay dearly?
Alok Sharma
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. A graduate tax would mean that poorer graduates paid more and richer graduates paid less, which is neither fair nor progressive. A graduate tax would also be a tax for life, rather than the maximum period of 30 years in the proposed scheme.
The coalition’s proposed system is fair. The Institute for Fiscal Studies says that it is more progressive than the current system, and the Opposition have proposed no system at all. It is fair to all taxpayers that students, who will on average earn significantly more than non-graduates in their lifetime, make a contribution to their education after they graduate; it is only fair to full-time and, now, part-time students and their parents that they do not have to find any money up-front; and it is fair because graduates will pay less per month than do they under the current system.
I hope that, rather than playing grubby politics with the aspirations of a generation of students, the Opposition will be honest with students and taxpayers. I hope that they join us in offering students increased opportunity and a greater stake in their own education, instead of raising false expectations that an as yet unexplained utopian alternative exists. I urge all Members to support the regulations.
Mr Speaker
Order. In view of the level of interest, after the next speaker has spoken I am afraid I am imposing a new limit of four minutes on Back-Benchers’ speeches to try to get as many in as possible. I call Naomi Long. Six minutes.
Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)
I am grateful for the opportunity to participate in the debate, which will have profound implications for the devolved Administration in Northern Ireland and for my constituents. I hope to come to that point later. However, given the time constraints, my remarks will not be as comprehensive as I would wish. I shall consider briefly just three aspects of the proposals with which I take issue: the first is the principle underpinning the changes; the second is the effect on social mobility; and the third is the impact on Northern Ireland’s students and universities.
First, I shall discuss the principle underpinning the introduction of tuition fees. The increase in fees and the reduction in the grant to universities for teaching is based on the premise that students are the main beneficiaries of a university education and that they should therefore make a specific contribution to the cost. I take issue with that. I may be unusual in doing so, although I am glad to see that some Liberal Democrat and Conservative Members have indicated that they also take issue with it.
One of the principal benefits to a graduate from their education is higher earnings. However, that is already accounted for in a progressive manner through general taxation. Over their lifetime, graduates pay more than 40% more tax than a non-graduate. The higher earnings of a graduate are therefore accounted for through taxation. However, although graduates benefit from studying, society also benefits from their degree. For those hon. Members who have asked how, I simply say that every time someone goes to their pharmacist, dentist, doctor, sends their child to school or university, drives over a bridge or on a road, or turns off a tap in their home, they are benefiting directly from someone else’s university education. Employers benefit from increased competitiveness. In Northern Ireland, our international competitiveness and ability to attract direct foreign investment and develop spin-out economic activity linked to research and development are dependent on having well-educated graduates in our population. That benefit is extended to everyone.
Like the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland), I was opposed to the introduction of tuition fees and top-up fees. I am also opposed to these proposals, which will further shift the responsibility for university funding on to individual students and away from wider society. A number of hon. Members have referred to the introduction of tuition fees as opening a Pandora’s box. I think the introduction of tuition fees is akin to a conversation between a man and a woman in which the man says, “Would you sleep with me for £1 million?” The woman then says, “Yes,” and the man says, “Now we’ve established the principle, let’s negotiate the price.” What we are doing today is negotiating the price, not the principle. Labour Members should take that into account in what they have to say.
When Labour established the principle of tuition fees and top-up fees, market forces were introduced into the university system. Yesterday, the Deputy Prime Minister said that he would like tuition fees to be scrapped, but that he lives in an imperfect world. I share his aspiration. I am opposed to the measures, not least because by cutting the teaching grant and moving reliance on to individual contributions, the chance for scrapping fees moves from being an aspiration to a pipe dream.
Social mobility is hugely important and my views have been influenced heavily by my personal experience. Neither of my parents had the opportunity to go to university and both went out to work when they were 14. Indeed, my father did so to fund the education of his younger brother. That situation may become more common in the future, as tuition fees rise. For me, the opportunity to attend university was life changing. I had the benefit of a maintenance grant and did not have to pay fees. That financial support was critical to me. My father died when I was 11 and my mum was on a state pension by the time I made it to university. Without making the sacrifice of what was, effectively, six years of deferred earning, when I could not contribute to the household and was reliant on my mum, I would not have been able to get my education. It was the right decision for me, but it is one I fear that other students might not have the opportunity to take.
People from lower-income backgrounds tend to be more debt adverse, and that is deeply engrained in their psyche. Full cognisance has not been given to that in developing the proposals. I want other young people to have the opportunities that I enjoyed. I therefore cannot support the proposals.
As I said last night, the decision taken in this House today will have a profound effect on students from Northern Ireland and on the devolved Administration. An independent review is taking place under the auspices of the Department for Employment and Learning in the Northern Ireland Assembly. However, the report made it clear in its initial phase that it would be very difficult for us significantly to vary from the situation in England.
It was also made clear in the Grand Committee that the Barnett consequentials of a decision that has not yet been taken have already been factored into the budget. I have no doubt that the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) will have more to say about that in due course.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
I agree almost entirely with the hon. Lady’s comments. Does she now regret that during the election campaign she received the wholehearted endorsement of the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr Clegg) and that she was so effusive in her support for the Lib Dems?
Naomi Long
No, I do not regret receiving the right hon. Gentleman’s support during the election campaign. I am thankful to be here as an Alliance party Member representing its policies and not as a Liberal Democrat Member. I think that the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) is well aware of that.
In Northern Ireland, this will be a matter for the Northern Ireland Assembly. However, if a balance cannot be found between protecting Northern Ireland students who may be deterred from attending university, and underfunding our participation rates, there are serious implications for rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy, which the Government have said is a priority for them. It is hugely important that our universities in Northern Ireland are considered powerfully in this. Northern Ireland universities have some of the best participation rates among lower socio-economic groups. One of those is a Russell group university—Queen’s university Belfast. Lessons could be learned from the arrangements that it has put in place to widen participation to support students into education. We should not simply dismiss this as a matter that concerns only English students without giving full consideration to students from Northern Ireland. It is hugely important that the situation in Northern Ireland is fully considered. Although there are progressive measures regarding the repayment of these fees, I cannot, on balance and in the absence of a full package, give my support to what has been put before us.
Nick Boles (Grantham and Stamford) (Con)
In the short time available to me, I want to focus on the question that really vexes most people in all parts of this House: what effect do the different systems of university finance available to us have on social mobility? Will this Government’s proposals encourage more people whose parents did not go to university to do so? As we have often heard, there are many very strong opinions in this House on the answer to that question. Many Members believe fervently that the fees proposed by the Government will deter people whose parents did not go to university and who come from families on low incomes from going to university. It is also true, as we heard earlier, that some opinion polls suggest that a very large proportion of people say that they will be deterred from going to university. Yet people do not always do what they say they are going to do—[Interruption.] We are all flawed.
I have tried to find research to give us some facts to work with, because projections of what people will do are not nearly as interesting as the facts about what they have done. Several countries operate their university systems on the basis of quite substantial fees, chief among them the United States, Australia, Canada and New Zealand, as well as ourselves. Unfortunately, there is not much research out there that goes into the question of the kinds of people who go to university, but fortunately I have found one such piece of research conducted by a group called Higher Education Strategy Associates. It carried out a truly systematic comparison of what it calls educational equality and it discovered, extraordinarily and against our expectations, that high fees do not deter people from low-income families from going to university.
Nick Boles
My hon. Friend is, as ever, way ahead of me and exactly right. The reverse of what one might have expected is true. In Germany, 63% of the student population—[Interruption.] Please listen to this, because it is important. In Germany, 63% of students have fathers who also went to university. That means that only 37% of the students in Germany are the first in their family to go to university—the figure in the UK is 51%. Only 29% of students in Australia have fathers who went to university. The figure is only 31% in Canada and 39% in the United States.
The countries in which universities make the biggest contribution to social mobility are therefore those with the highest fees. How can that be? I agree that it is counter-intuitive. I will not deny to Opposition Members that that is not how one would expect people to behave. However, it is explainable.
First, such universities have an incentive to expand the number of places, because they receive additional money for each place—enough money to pay for the costs of that place. They therefore massively expand the number of places. That makes it easier for people who have not had huge advantages in life, who have not been able to go to the best schools and who do not have the highest grades, but who are nevertheless huge potential reservoirs of talent, to get places.
Susan Elan Jones
I am reluctant to disturb the hon. Gentleman, but I wonder whether he has read the Institute for Fiscal Studies report, which states that under the proposals, graduates from the poorest 30% of households
“would still pay back significantly more than under the current system”.
That concerns a large number of hon. Members.
Nick Boles
The Institute for Fiscal Studies, like everyone else in this debate, talks about what it thinks will happen, rather than what is actually happening in comparable countries.
The second explanation is that universities that earn a substantial income from fees are able to devote more resources to active steps to woo students from poorer families. They need a lot of wooing because they are frightened about what will happen. Such universities not only invest in wooing students from poorer families, but support them with bursaries and scholarship grants. The university with the best record in the world in participation from low-income families is Harvard university, which charges tuition fees of $32,000 a year. It can do that because it offers scholarships and bursaries to ensure that people are not put off. It goes out into schools and actively recruits people from low-income families.
Finally, this idea works because universities innovate. They come up with different kinds, shapes, lengths and costs of courses. Some courses take place over longer periods with lots of part-time study.
I believe that this House should operate on the basis of fact and evidence. The evidence is that the Government proposals will increase the participation of people from poor families, and that is why I support them.
Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)
I place on record my opposition to the huge rise in tuition fees and the disproportionate effect that it will have in Makerfield, compared with more affluent areas of the country.
I will commence my remarks at the stage before people apply for university. We have lost the Aimhigher programme, which succeeded in raising the horizons of disadvantaged learners in my community and in motivating them to achieve and to progress. Many young people in my constituency have low aspirations and narrow boundaries, and feel that many of the goals that we are discussing are not for them. That was illustrated when I toured one of the last schools to be completed under Building Schools for the Future. A year 7 pupil, who went around it with me, kept saying, “Look at this, isn’t it wonderful? Is it all for us? Isn’t it a bit too good for us, really?” Unfortunately for my constituency, the untimely demise of Building Schools for the Future has reinforced that view. That makes the Aimhigher project all the more vital. At all costs, we must avoid a return to the situation in 2004, when schools in Wigan had no links to universities and when many pupils had never been to a university campus, nor spoken to somebody who had started at university.
Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
I have given the progressive nature, or otherwise, of the proposals a great deal of thought throughout the debate, and I have managed to find one way in which they are progressive. It is that they will enable some hard-pressed Labour candidates to progress into Liberal Democrat seats at the next election.
Yvonne Fovargue
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention.
Encouraging young people in Makerfield to consider university, and to consider which university course is right for them, has been difficult enough without bringing in the added complication of the huge rise in costs due to the trebling, in some cases, of tuition fees. Not only will potential students from poorer backgrounds be deterred from further education completely, but those who are determined to proceed will feel pressure to choose the most affordable course, even though it may not be the right one for them.
The average student debt will rise massively to £40,000, according to the University and College Union. In Makerfield, that equates to just over half the cost of the average terraced house, the kind of property in which many of my constituents live. The idea of taking on that amount of debt at a young age, and also having to plan for a future later, is unimaginable and frightening to many people.
Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op)
Many of my hon. Friend’s constituents live fairly close to my constituency, which houses the university of Central Lancashire. Many of our constituents probably thought that £3,000 was quite a lot when the Labour Government originally voted to introduce tuition fees. In fact, we found that £3,000 fees did not close the market. The vice-chancellor of the university of Central Lancashire tells me, however, that fees of £9,000 will close the market, as they will frighten people off going to university.
Yvonne Fovargue
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend.
In my constituency, a traditional working-class community, debt is regarded as a bad thing, and parents do not encourage their children to take on levels of debt on this scale. For me, education has always been a partnership between the individual and the state. It involves an investment on both sides. However, this rise in tuition fees, coupled with the cuts to the university teaching budget, has shifted that. The loss of funding for many courses, particularly in the arts, humanities and social sciences, has transferred the funding solely to the students of those subjects.
Yvonne Fovargue
No, I will not give away again.
Those shifts in funding cannot be fair or right. Is this the society in which we want to live, where we know the price of everything and the value of nothing? Young people in my constituency are angry; they feel let down. They have been e-mailing me and urging me to vote against this increase. I am glad that those people are angry, but I worry about the ones who have not contacted me, who perhaps feel that this unfair policy is all that they deserve, and that they can expect nothing better. It is not what my constituents deserve; they deserve the best chances in life, and I shall vote against this policy to ensure that they get them.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
I rise to support the Government’s proposals on the basis that they are fair, just and progressive. I have formed that opinion on the basis of my own personal experience, having gone to a local secondary modern high school in a tough catchment area which closed the year I left, and having been the first in my family to go to university. I am still paying back the tuition fees from the Bar vocational course that I took before qualifying as a barrister. I was also an executive member of the National Union of Students in Wales between 1998 and 1999.
In the light of that experience, do I feel that the Government’s proposals will allow students from all different backgrounds to go to university and reach their potential? The answer is that I most certainly do feel that anyone who wants to go to university will be able to do so, and will be able to reach their true potential. The concepts of aspiration, hard work, determination, dedication and perseverance are crucial to getting someone to university, through university and beyond.
Paul Uppal
I come from a working class background—seven children in a two-up, two-down. My parents took two jobs and I did not qualify for a grant because they supported my extended family in India. I worked my way through university. Is it not the case that it is not money, but individual personal ambition and aspiration that drives people?
Rehman Chishti
I thank my hon. Friend for making that pertinent point. It is not simply about money, but about aspiration, commitment, dedication and determination to go to university. My hon. Friend makes an excellent point.
Chris Bryant
May I put a slightly different version of the facts to the hon. Gentleman? By the end of a three-year, perhaps four-year course, somebody could have debts of £40,000 or £45,000. For many people in my constituency and in many mining constituencies in this land, that is more than the value of their home. That is the equation that goes through their mind.
Rehman Chishti
The hon. Gentleman makes a pertinent point. I was at university in Wales and I know the community there. However, the key element is that there are no up-front fees and that is why the motion is a good one.
One has to consider the overall package rather than single elements for its progressiveness, fairness and justness. As well as there being no up-front fees, the increase in the threshold from £15,000 to £21,000 has to be a good thing. There will be a cap at £6,000 and then at £9,000, linked to exceptional circumstances. Some of the highest-performing universities will have to go out and ensure that students from less privileged backgrounds take part. That is absolutely right and fair.
Richard Graham
Does my hon. Friend agree that, a student who goes on to earn £25,000 a year—the average salary—will repay that loan at the rate of £30 a month for 30 years, and that that represents a substantially good deal?
Rehman Chishti
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. To ensure that students from different backgrounds can go to the some of the highest-performing universities, we must also make sure that students from less privileged backgrounds have better grades at GCSE and at A-level. I therefore welcome the initiative of the Secretary of State for Education on the pupil premium and the student premium as a way forward.
Increasing the maintenance grant from £2,900 to £3,250 is a good thing for students from families earning under £25,000. Students whose parents earn above £25,000 and up to £40,000 will still be able to get a partial maintenance grant. Beyond that, those from families earning £42,000 to £60,000 can be given loans so that they can go to university. Students in my constituency who go to study in London can have London weighting paid on their maintenance grants.
Part-time students were treated unfairly and unjustly for so long. They often got a raw deal—and they were often mature students and disabled students. It was wrong that they could not get funding to ensure that they could go to university and fulfil their potential. Our policy on that is absolutely right.
It is right and proper that money should follow the student so that universities have to improve student experiences and ensure that they improve the quality of education.
The previous Government’s policy of 50% going to university was wrong and misplaced. Instead, they should have ensured more vocational qualifications and apprenticeships because we all have different abilities and talents, and they must all be nurtured. In essence, we have to look at the reason for being in this mess: the previous Government’s mismanagement of the economy. [Hon. Members: “Oh!”] That will not do. We have one of the worst financial deficits in the G20—the legacy that the previous Government left us.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
I feel some sympathy for the Liberal Democrats, having served in a coalition in Northern Ireland and knowing the compromises that people must make. I can understand that they were in a difficult position, but when people put their signature to a pledge, stick a photograph of themselves on it to make sure that people know who signed it and make that pledge a main part of their party manifesto, going for the kind of policy that we are discussing today is not a compromise—it is an abject surrender.
Sammy Wilson
Quite right.
Of course, there are other things that the Liberal Democrats could have compromised on. Was a referendum on a voting system that happens to benefit their party—although perhaps no voting system will benefit them in future—a higher priority than their manifesto pledge on fees? Given the choice between increasing fees by 200%, despite making a firm commitment not to do so, and creating a voting system that happens to benefit their party, I suspect that most people would say that the priority ought to have been to stand firm on fees.
People may say, “What’s this got to do with people from Northern Ireland, because after all, under devolution, it is up to the devolved Administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to decide their higher education policy?” but that is factually incorrect, because ahead of this vote the Government decided that resources that would have been taken out of higher education were taken out of devolved budgets. Northern Ireland will therefore lose more than £200 million as a result of a decision made on the basis of a vote that has not yet been taken. That restricts the ability of devolved Administrations to set their own policies.
Jim Shannon
My hon. Friend is in a unique position, because he is the Finance and Personnel Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive. Will he indicate what impact the increase in tuition fees will have on the Executive’s budget?
Sammy Wilson
I have indicated the impact of the policy on the budget, but the policy also impacts on the ability of the Executive to restructure the economy. It is important for us to have a supply of skilled labour that will attract inward investment.
Let us consider two of the arguments that have been made today. First, people have said that the policy has everything to do with helping to reduce the deficit and dealing with the economic mess that was left. However, the proposals will lead to more borrowing. The flow of money from graduates will not come through immediately —it will take a number of years—so the deficit will not be reduced. That is not even good economics, let alone good politics. The Browne report says that 70% of those who take loans over the next 30 years will default on all or part of them. Who will pay for that? It will be the taxpayer. Therefore, the public finances will be no better off, unless the plan is to pass greater costs on to students in future. The policy does not make economic sense.
Secondly, many Government Members have argued that the policy will have no impact on the poor, but the proposed scheme accepts that it will. Why have a national scholarship scheme or all the other things that have been put into the system if the policy will have no impact on the poor? Of course it will have an impact the poor, as the Government themselves admit.
Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)
The hon. Gentleman is the Finance and Personnel Minister in the Executive, and I am curious, as I am sure the House is, to understand how much consultation the Secretary of State undertook with the devolved Executive. The Secretary of State knows how serious the implications of his policy are for students from Northern Ireland who go to universities in England and Wales.
Sammy Wilson
The hon. Lady makes a very good point. We hear a lot about the respect agenda for the devolved Administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, but as far as I am aware there have been no such discussions. Members have argued that there needs to be far more discussion of the details of the scheme and its impact on other Administrations across the UK. That would have been another argument for supporting amendment (b), which was not selected, and it is therefore an argument for voting against the motion.
I have one more point to make, which has not been made so far. Raising fees to the suggested level of £9,000 will make it easy for universities simply to take the easy way out. Rather than examine whether they deliver an efficient service and spend every pound well, they can simply pass the cost on to the consumer—in other words, the student. That will be unfair to students, but it will also go totally against what the Government say they want to do, which is to make public spending more efficient. For those reasons, we will oppose the motions. We believe that they could have been introduced in a much more consensual way, but that was not done. The Government will be poorer for that, and the whole system of higher education will suffer as a result.
Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)
May I first declare the following interests? I have a daughter who is currently a student in her second year, and my youngest daughter anticipates going into higher education and going to university in 2012. I am also a former member of the executive of the National Union of Students, which was obviously a considerable time ago. I took part in many a march to this place with people who are now Members not just on my side of the House but on the Opposition side. We did not march peacefully—we shouted out our protest, but we did march lawfully. We should all say that the cause of those who oppose the motions has been done no service whatever by the antics of what may be a minority. That has done nothing but set back their cause, and we should all condemn that criminal activity.
I had the benefit of getting my degree at no cost to myself—I am of that generation, as are many others in the House. However, I wish to say, notably to the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), that this comprehensive-educated girl needs no lessons, please, on social mobility. It is to the eternal shame of the Labour party that after 13 years, far from advancing people who attended the sort of school that I went to, it set the process back.
Anna Soubry
Forgive me, no. Time is so short that Opposition Members may well say that they want to hear less of me, not more.
I feel that there should be considerably more honesty, notably from Labour Members, about the legacy they left us. That legacy is not just in relation to the deficit, because 45% of youngsters leaving school now go into higher education. I pose this question: has that actually been to the benefit of them and the nation? There is a really good argument that we have had an over-expansion of higher education that has devalued degrees and falsely raised the expectations of young people of my daughters’ generation. It has also led to an undervaluing of the skills, ability and achievements of those who have not gone into higher education. That is why I am so proud that this Government have increased the number of apprenticeships by up to 75,000.
Anna Soubry
No, sir. Another day.
What I would say to the Secretary of State, apart from the fact that I admire his courage in all that he has done in recent times, is that I wish him to look again at our proposals in relation to those who repay early. Many families will now save to assist their children through higher education, and I respectfully submit that it would be wrong to penalise them for their thrift in saving for their children’s future.
If we really want social mobility, and if we really want to give people from the most deprived backgrounds the opportunity to enter higher education, we need to improve our schools, to ensure that those who are bright but from bad and difficult backgrounds have the opportunity to move into higher education. That is all part and parcel of our determination to increase social mobility in a way that has not been done in the past 13 years.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
This debate takes place with an unprecedented number of young people all over the country following the proceedings in Parliament and discussing in their colleges, universities and sixth forms what their future holds and what life has in store for them. Tens of thousands of them have come to London today, and I am disappointed that a very large number of them are apparently being kettled by the police in Parliament square and the streets around Parliament. Surely we want to send out the message that we welcome students to London, welcome their supporters and welcome people who wish to take part in the democratic process and lobby MPs peacefully. I hope we can get the message out that that is what we are trying to achieve today.
Those young people who are discussing and debating—and, indeed, occupying some universities—are arguing for the right of all young people to have the opportunity to go on to college or university education.
Jeremy Corbyn
I will not give way, because I only have four minutes.
I believe that many of the students are protesting for altruistic motives. Most of the current generation of university students will continue to pay the existing—and, in my view, exorbitant—level of fees. They are protesting for the next generation. They are doing it because they believe in the value and opportunity presented by higher education. The coalition Government have come up with a threefold increase in fees that will saddle students with debts of £27,000 for fees alone—never mind the rest of it.
When young people in inner-city areas or the poorer communities in our country are asked, “What are your prospects? What do you want to do?”, many say, “I want to study. I want to qualify. I want to go to university. I want to achieve something in life.” If we tell them, however, that unless they are very poor they will have to pay these fees and borrow money to survive and get through university, they simply will not do it. They will go and do something else, and the result will be that all the progress we have made over the past few years on widening participation in education will be set back. If we add to that the ending of the education maintenance allowance, which is a crucial factor in encouraging young kids from poorer backgrounds to stay on at school and do A-levels, national vocational qualifications and all the things that are good for them and their lives, those kids will simply leave at 16 instead.
By this vote today, we are destroying the opportunities, hopes and life chances of a whole generation. I believe strongly in public investment in public services and public education. The Secretary of State should be utterly ashamed of himself, because in effect the Government are reducing to 40% the level of funding for universities, increasing the privatisation of universities and courses, and ending academic independence. We need to tax the wealthy. We do not need a graduate tax or an increase in income tax to pay for it. Some £6 billion has not been collected from Vodafone thanks to a cosy deal with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. That is actually more than the total amount paid through tuition fees over the past year.
I signed a pledge not to vote for a fees increase, I voted against the fees increase in 2004 and I voted against the introduction of fees in 1998. Liberal Democrats were on the same ticket at the time—hon. Members should stand up for what they believe in and vote no.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Normally when I am called immediately following the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), it is to disagree with most of what he has said, but today is an exception. I endorse most of what he said.
I begin with an apology to the House and the Business Secretary, in that an unbreakable commitment on the Intelligence and Security Committee prevented my being here for his opening speech. Had I been here, I would have sought to intervene and remind him of our exchange when he made his statement on 12 October. I asked him:
“Will it not be a sad day for academic meritocracy if and when able students from poor backgrounds are deterred from going to top universities because those universities are allowed to charge more than other universities in fees to students?”
He replied:
“Yes, the hon. Gentleman is quite right, and for that reason he will recall my comments about the need to be careful about following through the request of the Russell group universities for unlimited fees. There are serious problems with that. Of course there are advantages in terms of world-class universities, but we need to be careful about going down that road, and we will reflect further on it.”—[Official Report, 12 October 2010; Vol. 516, c. 165.]
Well, the right hon. Gentleman has reflected. He has wrestled very publicly with his conscience, and his conscience has turned out to be the loser. Of course we have not gone right down that road, but we have gone a good way down it by allowing some universities to charge 50% more than others.
Geraint Davies
I am grateful to the Swansea-born Member for giving way. Taking that further, is he sympathetic to the Welsh Assembly’s position of limiting fees to £3,000 and limiting cuts to 35%, rather than 80%, accepting that what is proposed is a political choice, not just an economic choice?
Dr Lewis
I am certainly not going down the road of turning this into a debate about the affairs of my birthplace, except in so far as it brings me on quite nicely to why I take such a strong stance.
If I have any reputation at all, it is as something of an expert, but in one, rather narrow field—defence and security. I claim no expertise at all in matters of education policy or financing. However, I do claim experience in the matter that we are talking about today. It may be worth people knowing that every hon. Member gets about 15 seconds of fame—if not 15 minutes—when, eventually, The House magazine comes to him or her and invites them to take part in the production of a profile of their past and their value system. I want to go back to that one occasion, in January 2001, when I was asked to supply my profile. I said:
“I grew up in Swansea and went to the same state grammar school as my father, Sam. The difference was that he had to leave at 14 to help his father as a tailor. He used to tell me,”
when I asked him, that I did not need to know about tailoring, because
“he would be the last of the tailors in my family,”
as now there was a system of students grants. I continued:
“He is an exceptionally intelligent man who would undoubtedly have succeeded at university if he had been able to complete his education in the late 1920s,”
in the same grammar school that I went to.
“The university grant system gave me my opportunity, and I never approved of the changeover to top-up loans—let alone for tuition fees.”
I have been listening to some of the arguments—we are beginning to go round and round the same track—but I was particularly struck by the elegant process of ratiocination by my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles). He was able to make a convincing case that the more we charge people to go to university, the more people will go and the more poorer people will go. In that case, I am tempted to vote against the Government on the grounds that they are not charging enough. Perhaps we should charge quadruple fees, quintuple fees or even sextuple fees, to ensure that the entire population of the country can go to university.
I am worried about the prospects for my party. I remember an earlier time when we thought we had a good policy. In fact, I worked with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and one of his most effective speech writers—a very good young man called Peter Campbell—on trying to sell the poll tax to the people. There were all sorts of elegant arguments to show that the poll tax was actually the best and the fairest policy. Well, even if we have a policy that we genuinely think is fair, unless we can convince people that it truly is a fair policy, it will fail and be rejected. I can hear people talk about percentages until they are blue in the face—or yellow in the face—but they will not convince me that young people from poor backgrounds will not be deterred. If they would not be deterred, why was it necessary to introduce the special measures for those who have free school meals? I would have been deterred, and I do not want others to be deterred.
Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)
The Browne review takes as its starting-point the changes that the Labour Government introduced in 2004. We all know that those changes were politically difficult, but they achieved two major things: they brought more money into universities and they resulted in a large increase in higher education participation, including and, indeed, particularly among students from poorer backgrounds.
The Higher Education Funding Council for England released figures earlier this year showing that, back in 2004, just one in eight young people from the poorest backgrounds went to university; it is now one in five. Of course there is still a gap in participation rates between rich and poor. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) showed this week, our top universities must do much more to attract a wider variety of students. We did, however, see a big increase in opportunity and participation, following the changes of 2004.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
I tried to intervene on the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) as I wanted to correct some of his figures before he started scaremongering. The university of Cambridge takes 15% of students from ethnic minority backgrounds as compared with 10% across the country. He spoke about the one British black Caribbean student out of the 35 applying who gained admission to Oxford university, but failed to mention the 23 black Africans, the three other black students, the seven white and black Caribbean students, the seven white and black Africans, the 35 others of mixed descent and the nine others or, indeed, those directly from the Caribbean—
Mr Speaker
Order. Interventions must be a lot briefer from now onwards. That is very unfair to other Members.
Mr McFadden
We are probably all agreed that the top universities can and should do more to attract ethnic minority students.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) said, there are some good points in the Browne report. Browne was right to maintain the position whereby fees are not paid up front by students, but by graduates and only after they start earning. This has been portrayed as a new change in the system, but it is not; it has been there since the 2004 changes, although it is still widely misunderstood. Browne is also right to increase the repayment threshold and to include part-time students in the system. Let us be clear, given that the point about part-time students has been portrayed as some great gift from the Government, that the Labour Government explicitly built that into the terms of reference for the Browne review.
It is also right to place a greater emphasis on providing more and better information for students about the quality of courses and teaching. If students are being asked to pay more, they deserve more power within the system, even if that is sometimes uncomfortable for academics or institutions.
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
Has my right hon. Friend seen the Government’s impact assessment, which suggests that even they recognise that as the teaching grant is withdrawn, fees for part-time students will go up and participation could go down as a result?
Mr McFadden
I was coming to that, because Browne also called for an increase in participation of 10%, yet one of the first acts of this Government was to cut the number of student places by 10,000 when compared with the plans that Labour had put in place. Since the election, both Tory and Lib Dem Ministers have repeatedly attacked Labour’s aim to have a participation rate of 50% for our young people. Their attack on higher participation is an attack on opportunity, which we should resist. I stress that participation is about not just the fee level, but getting people to the point where they can make the choice in the first place. Therefore, abolishing the education maintenance allowance and Aimhigher is a direct attack on participation and opportunity for young people.
Mr McFadden
I will not give way again, as there is not much time remaining.
There is one big problem with the Government’s package: the degree of the reduction in the teaching grant for universities. That is what is forcing the fees so high. Hon. Members have even referred to Labour’s cuts announced this time last year. Let us do a comparison: we announced a small reduction of 1.6% in the teaching grant; the Government’s proposals are accompanied by an 80% reduction in the teaching grant. That is a huge transfer of responsibility and cost from the state to the individual, and it lies at the root of the large increase in fees. Also, rather than the package resulting in more resources for universities, it requires large fees just for universities to be able to stand still. Therefore, the issue is not so much the Browne review as the spending review. That is the problem with the proposals.
Higher education brings a shared benefit to the country and to individuals. As it is a shared benefit, and we believe in a high level of participation, we share the costs. That was Labour’s approach when we made changes in 1998 and 2004. Instead of sharing the cost, the Government’s plans go wrong by replacing, to a large degree, the responsibility of the state with that of the individual. That is why fees are being driven up so much.
The politics of this does matter. The Liberal Democrats are in such trouble not just because they have broken an election promise, but because what they have done is a revelation about how they have conducted politics for years. They signed the NUS pledge because they did not think that they would be in the chair when the music stopped. They are in the chair, and to govern is to choose. The commitment was not just a line in their manifesto but front and centre of their holier-than-thou election campaign. The truth is that they will never be thought of in the same way again.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
In the debate since the Browne proposals were published, and so far today, many have found it easy to reject what is proposed, but there has been too little presentation of alternatives. I have attempted to bring constructive criticism and fresh ideas to bear on the Government’s proposals during the past few weeks. In the House, just over a month ago, the Prime Minister agreed with me that if graduates are to make a greater contribution to the cost of their education, contributions should be related to ability to pay.
Like the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), I find much in the Government’s proposals to welcome, and much that serves to make higher education funding fairer. I particularly welcome the end of up-front fees for the 40% of students who study part time. Retaining the cap on fees, albeit at the higher level, is indeed an improvement on Lord Browne’s report. The raising of the repayment threshold from £15,000 to £21,000 is also an improvement on the current system, as is the annual uprating of the threshold in line with earnings. However, I did not believe that it would be fair, come 2015, for today’s students to have to make payments from the substantially lower threshold of £15,000, while the most recent graduates would be able to earn up to £21,000 before beginning their contributions. I have made that point on the Floor of the House to the Minister for Universities and Science.
Therefore, I truly appreciate the movement that the Government showed yesterday in announcing the annual uprating of the repayment threshold for existing students and graduates, not just for those starting their studies from 2012 onwards. The measure should not be underestimated. It calls a halt to repayments for more than 100,000 graduates on modest salaries, and it cuts the contributions asked of 2.5 million graduates by hundreds of pounds each over the course of this Parliament. However, I hope that when the new system is in place, the gap between the existing repayment threshold and the £21,000 level can be closed entirely. At the very least, under the existing system recent graduates should be offered the option of transferring to the new system, with whatever outstanding contribution they have left at the time. In that way, they could indeed benefit from the increased threshold.
Claire Perry
I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s reference to the progressive nature of the measures. Is it credible that the Labour party, which introduced the principle of graduates paying and voted for two increases in tuition fees, is able to drum up quite so much fake anger this afternoon?
Duncan Hames
What amazes me is that Labour Members were not prepared to raise the £15,000 threshold in any of the last six years.
There has been another failure since the Opposition introduced tuition fees, which has been inadequately addressed for too long—for 13 years, indeed.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Duncan Hames
I will not take any more interventions.
Back in 1997, the Dearing report concluded that the cost of higher education should be shared among those who benefited from it: the student, the state and the employer. For the past 13 years, the Government have ignored the conclusion that employers should also contribute to the cost of higher education. Not only are graduate employers not required to make a direct contribution, but there appears to be no method of facilitating that, even on a discretionary basis. I invite the Government and industry to develop broader proposals to facilitate, and even encourage, direct employer contributions to graduates’ higher education. Such contributions would effectively reduce what is being asked of graduates themselves. They could even prove to be more tax-efficient for the enlightened employers who chose to make them.
In the weeks since the publication of the Browne review, I have persistently sought to persuade the Government to amend their proposals to make them fairer. The Government have responded constructively, and have listened while others have failed to set out a fair and affordable alternative. In this way, we are making things fairer; and although there is more to do, I am confident that Ministers will continue to engage with the issues. That is why I will join them in the Aye Lobby.
I promised my constituents that I would work towards a fairer system of higher education funding. That is indeed what I have done, and it is what I will continue to do.
Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)
I know that many hon. Members wish to speak, so I shall be brief and focus on what is, in a sense, a niche issue: the impact on students who want to pursue longer, more prestigious and therefore often more expensive courses. A rise in tuition fees will have an adverse effect on all students of all disciplines, but those who wish to pursue longer courses, including architecture, veterinary science, medicine and dentistry, will be particularly affected.
Jake Berry
I wonder whether the hon. Lady would agree with my constituent Anna, who is protesting here today. She told me that her greatest fear was that universities were not prepared to offer shorter courses. She was given only six hours of lectures a week, and had asked to increase that to 12 to complete a degree in two years. Does the hon. Lady think that it would be possible for those taking longer courses to attend more lectures, thus compressing the time?
Pat Glass
I am sure that in an ideal world that would be fabulous, but we do not live in an ideal world. An architectural course can take between seven and eight years to complete, depending on the placement element of the course. A student taking such a course at one of the Russell group universities could end up with a debt of £100,000. That is the size of some mortgages, especially in a constituency such as mine. It is terrifying for most people, but it is absolutely terrifying for an 18-year-old student from a constituency, or a background, where no one else has ever gone to university.
The location of medical schools and universities delivering longer courses means that for many living at home is not an option. The intensity of their courses often rules out part-time work, which exacerbates the potential debt problem for those students. For those who want to enter one of the more prestigious professions, there is often no route of entry other than to study at university. Young people whose families cannot afford to pay their fees for them, or who live in communities where going to university is not commonplace, are being put off going to university.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
Yesterday I met Liam Cunningham and Joe Short at an event in Maghull in my constituency, and they made a similar point to me. They said that what they and their friends are most concerned about is the prospect of starting their working lives saddled with tens of thousands of pounds of debt. Does my hon. Friend agree that that is one of the fundamental problems with what the Secretary of State has announced?
Pat Glass
Yes, I agree. It goes further than that, however. Professions such as medicine, dentistry, law and architecture should be representative of the society they serve, but despite all the efforts to achieve that, they remain largely populated by people from higher-income families. The Secretary of State comes to the Chamber and lectures us, saying it is unacceptable that only 46 young people on free school meals went to Oxbridge last year. I agree that that is unacceptable, but I do not think even the Secretary of State, operating out of his ivory tower on the top floor of Sanctuary Buildings, can possibly believe these proposals will improve that. Evidence from the Secretary of State’s own Department clearly shows that students from lower socio-economic backgrounds are more debt-averse than others. These proposals are highly damaging, and will result in fewer, not more, young people on free school meals and on low incomes getting to university, let alone Oxbridge.
Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)
I thank my very good hon. Friend for giving way. Social mobility is an important issue, because it is not just about tuition fees. The coalition Government have cut child trust funds, child benefit for some, school sport partnerships funds, Building Schools for the Future, education maintenance allowance awards and the future jobs fund. They are also scrapping Aimhigher and are now trebling tuition fees. What have they got against children and young people?
Pat Glass
Several Government Members have asked why non-graduates should pay for graduates. If we take that to its logical conclusion, we would also ask why couples who have no children should pay for the education of those who have children, or why the healthy should pay for the NHS to care for the sick. That is where that argument would take us.
The Government are creating a society in which access to university will return to being for those who can afford it, rather than those who deserve it. Talent will be ignored and un-nurtured, and ultimately we will all pay the price as our economy fails to keep pace with those of our competitors. This is not simply a moral argument, therefore; there are also strong economic arguments against the proposals.
I have said a number of times in the House that more people in this country are aged over 65 than under 16. That skewed profile will increase, so we will need a better educated and more highly skilled work force in the future. These proposals would give us the opposite, however; they would simply waste our seed corn for the future.
Finally, I want to talk briefly about the young people themselves. I regularly meet a group of young people who come from the schools councils of all the secondary schools in my constituency. When I met them two weeks ago I expected anger, but I was surprised at the depth of their anger. It was not just about tuition fees; it was about EMAs too. Not a single one of them was in receipt of an EMA, but they were angry about what it was going to do to their peers and their sixth forms. They asked me to give a message to the coalition Government. They feel particularly let down by the Liberal Democrats—they feel they have been callously and cynically misled by them—but their feelings about the Tories were more straightforward. They told me to pass on the message that this was the same old Tories and the same old cuts, and that they were not to be trusted with our public services or our futures.
Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)
I have listened to this debate with great attention, and I was struck by the comments of the hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry), who said that there is an issue of principle at stake. I was confused by that comment. What did the hon. Lady mean? The concept of free higher education has been lost as a result of previous Labour Governments’ actions, so that issue of principle was lost under them. Another principle that we have heard much about from Opposition Members is the need for the general taxpayer to pay for the education of all higher education students, but the graduate tax proposed by some Opposition Members would mean that some people would pay and some would not.
Claire Perry
May I point out that with a graduate tax, the money would flow directly to the Treasury? We know that Labour Members like it when money flows into the Treasury to be doled out, but is not our principle much better for universities?
Guto Bebb
I am afraid that I cannot take any more interventions because of the time.
We are talking about creating a system that will allow greater access, be more affordable and, in my view, ensure that higher education is properly funded.
Let me address the issue of better access. I am proud to be a graduate of Aberystwyth university, and when I graduated 20 years ago, the university had 2,700 undergraduates, whereas the current figure is almost 10,000. That increase is most welcome; I think both sides of the House welcome the fact that more young people have opportunities in education. However, those opportunities come at a cost and the Labour party continually allowed a situation to develop in which more and more people were going to university but sufficient funding provision was not put in place.
Guto Bebb
No, I will not.
It is important to point out that access comes with a cost. The coalition Government are trying to introduce a system that will ensure that fair and reasonable access to further education continues. Access has been discussed at length. I particularly welcome the fact that we are doing so much to ensure that there is fair support for people who study part-time. I have mature-student and single-parent constituents who want to move into further education, and they will be supported as a result of these decisions.
Guto Bebb
I will respond to the heckling in a minute, but I am quite confident that better access will be delivered as a result of these measures.
Affordability was discussed at great length by my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), who made an impressive speech. The cost of tuition fees might seem very daunting to some, and I am sure that many students will be daunted by the prospect of having debts of £20,000 or £30,000, but we need to consider this issue in the round. The other day, I had an e-mail from a parent asking whether their child, who hoped to become a teacher, would end up having to pay those astronomical fees. My response was clear: on a teacher’s starting salary of £20,500, that person would not pay those fees, because we are raising the threshold.
Guto Bebb
I will come back to that point about Wales.
The average salary in a constituency such as mine is £25,000 a year. Someone on such a salary would make repayments of about £360 a year. Dare I say that many people from north Wales will spend £360 on a weekend in Cardiff for a rugby international? Let us consider the option of spending £360 on a rugby weekend or £360 a year for an education: I think the choice is fairly clear.
Opposition Members have been heckling me about Wales. Yes, I stand here as a Welsh MP and I am embarrassed by the public relations stunt of the Welsh Assembly Government. I am embarrassed by the fact that they are willing to raid the education budget to pay for a policy to take them through to the next Assembly election. I am embarrassed that, increasingly, the Welsh education system will not be able to deliver a quality education and that as a result more and more Welsh students will choose to study in England, leaving less money for the Welsh system. I support the measures because they will improve access, increase affordability and ensure proper funding for the higher education system in this country.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
As we debate tuition fees, it is worth reminding ourselves that 90% of us in this House have benefited from university education; the overwhelming majority, right up to the youngest in the House, will have benefited from free education, as I did.
Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)
I am one of only a few Members of this House who went to university under a loans and fees system, so may I point out to the House that there is a real risk that the increased debt will put off poorer people? That will be even more the case when the fees are £9,000.
Jonathan Edwards
The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point that comes from his personal experience, and I am sure that everyone in the House has listened to those concerns. A very serious accusation has been laid at the door of not only this Parliament, but those before us. It is that, having benefited from free education paid for by taxation, we are pulling the drawbridge up behind us and leaving others to pay.
I need not remind hon. Members that the Labour party, whose Members are now complaining so passionately about an increase in tuition fees, was the party that first broke the compact with our young people and undermined the concept of free education for all. Fees were introduced in 1998, with a higher rate following in 2004. The very fact that this new funding regime is being introduced by a statutory instrument indicates that this is a continuation of Government policy, rather than a new development.
Pete Wishart
We all know the record of the Labour party, which includes having introduced tuition fees, but does the hon. Gentleman share my surprise that Scottish Liberal Democrats will be voting for this English-based measure? It offers no benefit for Scotland, only pain and hurt. Does he welcome the opportunity that his nation and my nation will have to cast their verdict on the Liberal Democrats next May?
Jonathan Edwards
As always, my hon. Friend makes an excellent point. Education is a right, not a privilege. The benefits that a highly skilled and well-educated population and work force provide are crucial if we are to maintain our position in the world, and to continue to develop a knowledge and value economy. In Wales, we believe that with the right support we can become a small, clever country, like our Scandinavian friends, delivering a better quality of life for our people. That is why last week’s announcement by the Welsh Government is to be welcomed. It shows why it is important that we have our own Government in Wales, so that policy can be based on our values as a nation. It is also why I believe the electorate of Wales will vote next March to confirm further powers for the National Assembly, so that Wales can achieve full political sovereignty over devolved policy areas.
Many hon. Members will not have heard that announcement in detail. Made by a different Member for Rhondda than we usually hear from in this House, the announcement by the “One Wales” Government affirms that: they do not support full cost or near full cost fees; they do not believe that higher education should be organised on the basis of a market; and they do not believe that it is sustainable in the long term for the UK to adopt a policy of having the highest tuition fees for higher education in the world outside the USA.
In “One Wales”, we in Plaid Cymru and Labour, committed ourselves to doing whatever was possible to mitigate the effects on Welsh-domiciled students if the Westminster Government lifted the cap on fees, because we believe that access to higher education should be based on academic ability, not the ability to pay. In other words, the increase in fees for Welsh-domiciled students, whether they study in Wales, England, Scotland or Northern Ireland, will be paid for by the Welsh Government. Welsh-domiciled students will continue to be eligible for subsidised loans to meet the cost of fees up to the current level.
Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)
That is an interesting concept. If the Welsh Government are allowing the fees to be paid to the universities at the higher level but are subsidising their students, is that not a good recommendation for the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish National party?
Jonathan Edwards
My Scottish friends have an even better and honourable position of having no tuition fees, and I wish that that was the case in my country. We are putting forward the best-case scenario given what we face in our country. The Welsh Government will pay for this measure by top-slicing the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales teaching grant, but Welsh higher education institutions will still enjoy a higher level of teaching grant support than institutions in England. The UK Government are proposing an 80% cut in the university teaching grant in England, moving the cost of education almost completely on to the student—it is the consumer who pays. The cut in teaching grant in Wales will be 35% and, thus, the vital contribution and principle of public funding for higher education will be maintained.
Chris Bryant
But is it not also important that one of the measures introduced in Wales ensures that individual youngsters in Wales can study any course anywhere in the United Kingdom that is right for them? The money will follow them, including to English universities. For example, they could not train to be a vet in a Welsh university, but they will be able to do so elsewhere under this system.
Jonathan Edwards
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, and of course I fully agree. I made that point earlier in a slightly different context.
That measure is a good deal for Welsh students and a good deal for Welsh universities.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
Does the hon. Gentleman not recognise the funding gap between Welsh and English universities, and that the Welsh Assembly Government’s policy is wholly unsustainable and merely a stunt before next May’s election?
Jonathan Edwards
The hon. Gentleman, as usual, is grandstanding. I totally disagree, and the Welsh Government’s proposals last week will not make any difference to the funding gap.
In the lead-up to this debate, I have been happy to sign amendments by Liberal Democrat Members who oppose the fees increases, and I have tabled my own. I congratulate them on their principled stance, but that action needs to translate into voting against the substantive motion in the name of the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. To those Government Members who are considering abstaining tonight, I say that abstaining on this issue would be just as good as voting in favour, so I urge them to join us in the Lobby later.
Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)
There are some very real and big choices in this debate. The three biggest are, first, how many young people we want to be able to go to university; secondly, the extent to which we want those who do not benefit directly to pay for those who do; and, thirdly, how to ensure that we widen access and promote social responsibility. There is no perfect answer, but on those three choices the Government have it about as right as one could get it.
Many hon. Members have noted that it is sometimes a difficult conversation when people of our age—
Damian Hinds
I am sorry, but because of the time I cannot.
It is sometimes difficult when people of our age have conversations with teenagers about university tuition, because it is startlingly obvious that we had an incredibly generous deal. That deal, however, was always based on such education being available to a relatively small number of people, and we were just the beneficiaries.
In the year I was born, 414,000 people were in full-time higher education; when I went to university, the number was 660,000; and now, it is 1.3 million. When we experience changes of that magnitude, we must fundamentally rethink how we pay for such things. Members from all parts of the House agree on that fundamental point, as they do on pension reform and on long-term care.
There has been another major change over those 40 years: real household income per head is 2.5 times what it was in 1970. That does not come from nothing; it comes from economic growth, an increased number of higher, value-added jobs and, most of all, growth in the professional and managerial classes, which is enabled by more people participating in higher education. We need those trends to continue, because never again will we make T-shirts cheaper than China. We need wider participation in higher education to thrive, and we need to excel in the necessary markets: advanced manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, financial services and, indeed, education itself.
The global market for higher education is growing at 7% compound per annum. This country is uniquely well placed to take advantage of that, first, because of the gift—literally, the gift—of the English language, and, secondly, because of the marvellous higher education brand names in England and, I must say, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. To thrive in that market, however, our universities need to be properly funded, and top universities have long complained that, even with the Government contribution—
Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Damian Hinds
I cannot, because of the time.
Top universities have long complained that, even with the Government’s contribution and the fees, they were underfunded and could not cover their costs. Incidentally, the cost also applies to EU students. There were 61,000 such enrolments last year, a number that is growing fast, and they are also partly subsidised by the British taxpayer. The right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) made light of the following point, but universities have used non-EU students as a cash cow to plug the funding gap, and that is not sustainable in a competitive, global market. Universities must be funded properly and sustainably.
It is true that, in higher education, there are what economists call both private returns and social returns— in other words, matters of social benefit—but all the studies say that the private returns outweigh the social returns, so it is fair that the students, over time, bear much of the cost.
With the package before us, with variable fees, requirements—rightly—to widen access and the higher £21,000 repayment threshold, we can continue to increase the number of young people accessing university, with all the benefits that that brings, and gear up the UK to take advantage of that key global growth market.
Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op)
As the Chair of the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills, which is charged with monitoring and scrutinising Government policy in this area, I have to make the point that this issue has aroused more interest than any other that my Committee is charged with considering.
I have received submissions from many students and would-be students, from various groups of universities and from parents. However, above all, I have had submissions from different sectors of industry that know that their future well-being and capacity to grow the country out of recession will be crucially affected by such legislation. I am therefore very disappointed that, in bringing this item forward now, the Government are precluding the sort of scrutiny that is necessary and that will be introduced following the White Paper.
The White Paper should have been published before this move was made so that my Committee, and the House in general, could consider the issue in the round and make an informed judgment. Inevitably, when the Committee meets, it will do so when the funding and tuition fees issue has already been decided. We will have to examine the consequences and potential unintended consequences.
I refused to sign the fees pledge. I did so knowing that higher education would need more funding and that we would have to examine the funding system in the context of a difficult financial situation, which could result in difficult decisions. There is a legitimate debate to be had about the balance of interests between individual contributions, the benefit that someone gets from higher education and the public benefit that comes from that individual’s education, which the public should invest in. Unfortunately, the procedure adopted has precluded that debate from being held.
Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)
On 10 November in Prime Minister’s questions, the Deputy Prime Minister admitted to breaking the pledge he signed on tuition fees. However, on 21 November on the “Politics Show”, the Business Secretary denied breaking the tuition fees pledge. Which end of the Lib Dem pushmi-pullyu is right?
Mr Bailey
I do not want to be diverted by the grief and contortions of the Lib Dem party because there are some other very serious issues that need to be addressed.
Any package that is put forward must meet two criteria. The first is that it must provide the extra funding necessary to provide the flow of graduates into our industries and public services that will sustain the economy.
Bill Esterson
The University and College Union estimates that students currently graduate with around £23,500 of debt and that these proposals would increase that to £40,000. Does my hon. Friend agree that such high levels of personal debt are one of the main failings of the proposals?
Mr Bailey
I will come to that issue in a moment.
Let me just finish what I was saying. I have questioned Ministers both at the Select Committee and in the Chamber on whether these proposals will bring in any net increase in funding for universities. I have yet to receive any assurances that they will. In the context of the world situation, we must remember that these proposals have been introduced at a time when the most advanced western countries, including European countries with similar financial problems as us, are investing in higher education because they know the economic dividend that accrues as a result will get them out of recession. Despite such a profound change to our funding system and all the potential consequences, this country could lose out on the vital issue of growing itself out of recession.
My second point is about social mobility and accessibility. My hon. Friend the Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) mentioned the potential £40,000 debt that is incurred. My constituency is a case in point, as a traditional industrial area with traditionally low aspiration and educational attainment. Over the past five or six years, that has been transformed by the money that has been put into education, the education maintenance allowance and the Aimhigher project.
Mr Bailey
I cannot give way any more—I apologise.
Unfortunately, the rungs that were going to sustain that improvement are being removed. Above all, that £40,000 debt will play on the minds of would-be graduates in my constituency. To potential graduates from low-income households, such a sum appears to be disproportionately more than to those who come from higher-income households. The measures that the Minister said would be put forward to replace Aimhigher appear to be reinventing the wheel, and privatising the wheel, because in effect they will ensure that low-income graduates will pay £9,000 to go to universities that will recycle that money to encourage more low-income graduates to go to university and incur the same debt.
A system that has been effective in improving social mobility and supporting people from low-income households into university is being replaced with one that will be essentially self-funding. It will not work, and the potential consequences for social mobility are most profound. I believe that these proposals are hasty and ill considered, and that they will be ineffective.
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
This has been a genuinely passionate and robust debate. We have heard interesting contributions from across the whole House, including from my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), from the hon. Members for Bexleyheath and Crayford (Mr Evennett), for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland), for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) and for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell), and from my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman).
There were interesting contributions from the hon. Members for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) and for East Surrey (Mr Gyimah). The contribution by my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) was particularly interesting, given his experience. There was an interesting contribution on Aimhigher from the hon. Member for Winchester (Mr Brine), and another from the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech). There were particularly interesting contributions on the question of access from my hon. Friends the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) and for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue).
There were contributions from the hon. Members for Reading West (Alok Sharma), for Belfast East (Naomi Long), for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti), for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) and for Chippenham (Duncan Hames), and from my hon. Friends the Members for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) and for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry). We heard a particularly interesting contribution from the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis).
We heard from my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden), the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), and my hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass), who gave another interesting speech. We also heard from the hon. Members for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) and for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds). Finally, we heard from the Chairman of the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey).
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
My hon. Friend has read out an extensive list, but has he noted how many Members were rising to speak when the Speaker called the Front Benchers to sum up? I wonder whether he can remember a debate of this importance, with a four-minute speaking limit, that has left so many people unable to get in. Does not that underline the fact that the guillotine that was imposed was unjustified and that it has denied Back Benchers the right to speak?
Mr Thomas
My hon. Friend makes a crucial point. We tried to get the Government to take the time out to publish a White Paper and to allow the House to have proper consultation and a proper debate. We never tried to curtail debate when we were in government—we allowed extensive time for Second Readings and for Committee proceedings.
Stephen Williams
Has the hon. Gentleman gone on such an enormous geographical tour and then spent time talking about time simply to waste time because he does not have a policy of his own to tell us about?
Mr Thomas
I thought that the hon. Gentleman could do better than that.
This has been a particularly interesting debate because of the cross-party opposition to the Government’s proposals. It is a pity that the coalition Government could not be bothered to listen properly to the concerns of their Members of Parliament. The Secretary of State walked out as the hon. Member for Leeds North West got to his feet, and those on the Government Front Bench chuntered away as the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole spoke.
I agree with the Deputy Prime Minister on one thing: in the heat of the debate about the Government’s plans, some unhelpful myths have circulated. He should know, because it is he and the Prime Minister who have been peddling those myths. The pair of them are about to become Britain’s premier loan sharks: targeting those who are not well off, never letting people pay off their loans, always increasing the interest rates, and allowing no escape from the ever higher debts.
Mr Jim Cunningham
Did my hon. Friend note that the Secretary of State refused repeatedly to give way to Labour Members during his speech and did not allow them to express their views?
George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the points about debt that he and his hon. Friends have made would carry a little more weight if they had not left every man, woman and child in this country with a debt of £22,000?
Mr Thomas
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that question, because I was about to say that the first myth that Government Members have peddled is that the Government have no choice in this matter because of the economic situation. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) pointed out in his speech, even within the terms of their reckless approach to reducing the deficit, the Government could have proposed a fee increase of hundreds of pounds, not thousands of pounds.
Mr Thomas
Let me just make this point. Even Ireland—which we are all watching closely, because the Chancellor of the Exchequer tells us that there is an economic miracle going on that we should emulate—is not cutting its university teaching budgets by 80%, nor is it increasing student fees threefold. The proposals before the House tonight are what happens when Conservative Chancellors of the Exchequer are allowed to run the Treasury unchecked.
Dr Creasy
Does my hon. Friend agree that it is impossible to explain to students in Walthamstow, where there has been an 87% increase in people who go to university, that the proposals are fair, when the Government are rowing back on the bankers’ levy? Does that not show what their priorities are for this country?
Mr Thomas
My hon. Friend makes a very good point about the stark contrast between what the Government said they would do when in opposition, and what they are doing in government.
The second myth that Government Members have peddled is that the responsible position was to change the balance in funding between graduates and the Government. That might have been a reasonable line if a slight shift was involved, but the Government have thrown away the scales and are loading the whole cost —not a bigger part, but the whole cost—of a university education on to the graduate, particularly for art, social science and humanities courses.
The Deputy Prime Minister tells us that social mobility will not suffer. The money for widening participation, for championing the brightest and best from low-income backgrounds, and for helping mature students to do part-time courses is being axed. As the hon. Member for Winchester said, Aimhigher, the premier programme for widening participation, has been abolished. As Labour Members have said, the education maintenance allowance, which helps low income students, will stop in January. The widening participation premium that is paid to universities to help them recruit and retain those from disadvantaged backgrounds is expected to be cut.
Elizabeth Truss
Is it not the case that under the previous Government, only 19% of the lowest-income households contained students who went on to university? That is the record of the previous Government.
Mr Thomas
With all due respect to the hon. Lady, she should look at the figures. There was a 30% increase in people from low-income households going to university.
In the last week or two, even the Government have begun to recognise that high fees will put off students. As the hon. Member for East Antrim said, by proposing a national scholarship scheme for children who are entitled to free school meals, the Government are at last admitting that high fees will put off students from low-income families. It would have been nice to have had a little more detail from the Secretary of State on how that would work, but he could not offer us any.
There are people watching the Liberal Democrat contortions who think that we have been watching the first pantomime of the season, with the Secretary of State for Business as the Widow Twankey of the Government, and the Deputy Prime Minister as the servant boy Buttons, frantically rushing around trying to please his new master. I am not going to go down that path, however, because there are only two certainties for the Liberal Democrats. The truth is that they are all playing the back end of the horse, and no—no one is behind them!
I recognise that, for Liberal Democrat Ministers, the question of student finance is very finely judged. For those tortured souls, the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), the Minister of State, Department for Education, the hon. Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather) and the Minister for Equalities, the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone), the nub of the principle that they are grappling with tonight is a tough one: “If I keep my ministerial Mondeo, will I lose my seat?”
When no G8 or OECD country other than Romania is cutting back higher education, it is clear that Opposition Members have to speak for all those people across the nation who recognise the damage that these proposals will do to our universities and the impact that they will have on the economic, social and cultural future of our country. More than 75% of students will end up paying more under these proposals than is currently the case, and graduates earning middle incomes at the age of 25 will pay the most, including those who want to be teachers, engineers and police officers: ordinary working people and families wanting a better future for their children, and young people dreaming great hopes—the very people the Secretary of State now turns his back on. Is it not clear tonight that those families and young people, whether they are on low incomes now or whether they will be on low or middle incomes when they graduate, are being let down by the parties in the coalition?
Tonight, Opposition Members speak for ordinary working people. We speak for Britain’s middle class. We will speak for those on low incomes in every constituency, and for all those who are outraged by this attack on the ambitions and aspirations of the brightest and best of Britain’s next generation. An abstention tonight is not enough. I urge the House to reject these proposals.
The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David Willetts)
We have indeed had a passionate and robust debate, and I am sorry that there will not be time for me to respond to all the points that have been made. The reason for the passion is that all of us care about the future of our universities, and about how we discharge our obligations to the younger generation. It has to be said that all three parties, when in government and confronted by the challenge of how to finance higher education in our country, have reached the same conclusion. All have concluded that the way forward is fees, paid for by loans from the taxpayer and repaid by graduates.
Mr Bone
My problem in deciding how to vote tonight is related to my constituents, and to whether this measure will put them off going to university. My right hon. Friend the Minister has already indicated that there will be an annual review of the measure. Will the £150 million be used to help all low-income families, rather than just those on benefit?
Mr Willetts
I can assure my hon. Friend, as I chair the group planning the use of that extremely valuable £150 million, that we will consider a range of options for who could be assisted by the scholarship programme.
I was explaining to the House how all three parties have reached the same conclusion, albeit by a rather circuitous route. When we were in opposition, my party voted against the fee increases in 2004, and we remember that decision because we were afraid that the effect of fees would be to put poor people off applying to university. We have now seen the evidence, however, and it shows that, since fees came in—and because there were loans as well—the proportion of people going to university from the poorest backgrounds in England has actually gone up. It has not gone down. Indeed, by contrast, in Scotland, the proportion of people from the poorest backgrounds attending university has fallen while it has gone up in England. That is why my party has concluded that fees supported by loans do not deter poor students from going to university.
The Liberal Democrat party and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, when confronted with the challenge of how to deliver progressive policies in a time of austerity, have rightly concluded that this is what we have to do.
The Labour party, now so irresponsibly retreating to the comforts of Opposition, was explaining such policies six years ago. I see the shadow Chancellor laughing. Six years ago, he was in the position that I occupy today, and he explained only the other day, as well as anyone could, the logic of our proposals, in his famous note to the leader of the Labour party:
“Oh, and for goodness’ sake, don’t pursue a graduate tax. We should be proud of our brave and correct decision to introduce tuition fees. Students don’t pay them, graduates do, when they’re earning more than £15,000 a year, at very low rates, stopped from their pay just like a graduate tax, but with the money going where it belongs: to universities rather than the Treasury.”
Quite right. It was true then and it is true now.
Ben Gummer
Back in June, when the Leader of the Opposition was offering solutions, he said that instead of up-front fees, graduates under Labour’s scheme would be asked to contribute a small percentage of their salaries to a fund over a fixed period of time. The percentage would vary according to income. I struggle to understand the difference between his proposal and that of Government Front Benchers.
Mr Willetts
My hon. Friend is right. We have improved on the policies that we inherited from the previous Government. They had a threshold of £15,000 and we are increasing that to £21,000, which is why the poorest quarter of graduates will be better off under our proposals than on the scheme we inherited.
Mr Willetts
Absolutely right. Lord Browne produced an excellent report. There is a group, “Blairites for Browne”, but of course they fell for that trick once before, so they are a bit wary this time.
The House should recognise that our proposals improve on the inheritance from the Labour Government. We have not only raised the threshold but increased the maintenance support available to students. Indeed, 500,000 students will receive more grant than they currently do.
Pete Wishart
I am very grateful to the Minister for giving way, but there are more than three parties in the House. Does he recognise that one party has consistently opposed tuition fees, is in government in Scotland and will have nothing whatsoever to do with tuition fees?
Mr Willetts
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will explain how, under the English system, more Scottish students study at English universities than English students study at Scottish universities. We know how to invest in high quality universities for the future, in the best interests of English students and the nation.
We have increased the repayment threshold and the value of the maintenance grant and, of course, we have offered a far better deal for part-time students than is currently available to them. In future, part-time students will be eligible for fee loans, which they do not currently receive.
Geraint Davies
I think that Members of all parties are worried that there may be civil unrest as a result of the way in which this is being railroaded—
Mr Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman will resume his seat. I call the Minister.
Mr Willetts
If I may say so, that was a disgraceful intervention.
The Government are committed to explaining how our proposals are progressive, how they will improve social mobility and how they will give our universities secure financial backing for the future. Members on both sides of the House have asked about the speed with which we are implementing our proposals. In fact, that was the Opposition’s main point—they want more time for a review and a Green Paper. I should explain to the House that the proposals emerge from Lord Browne’s review, which was set up by the Labour Government more than a year ago. The inquiry took evidence in public and received evidence from Members of all parties. We believe that we are implementing proposals—[Interruption.]
Mr Willetts
I was explaining how we have not rushed our proposals. They were based on a report that was introduced and commissioned by Labour a year ago. The changes will not come into force for the first generation of students until September 2012. It is necessary to take the financing decisions now so that universities can plan for them. If we do not take those decisions now, students and universities will find that universities have less grant, and that they are unable to replace it with income from students, which is what we are introducing—that is the key feature of our proposals.
We often hear Opposition Members talk about the loss of teaching grant, but they do not talk about the other side of the proposal—the extra money that can come to universities through the choices of students. We trust students. Taxpayers will provide students with the money to pay the fees. That will ensure that universities can continue to enjoy the levels of income that they enjoy at the moment. That money will not be handed out from Whitehall; it will come from the choices of students.
We believe that those students will continue to choose arts and humanities. There is no bias against arts and humanities—[Interruption.] Our proposals are equitable, and we believe that they will ensure that students can choose the courses that they wish.
Mr Willetts
Because our proposals—[Hon. Members: “Give way!”] I am not going to give way because I have three minutes remaining in which to report to the House that in the past few days 53 university leaders from across England have made it clear that they support the coalition shift towards a more progressive graduate contribution scheme as the way to provide a more sustainable higher education system.
Of course the Government care about participation in universities. That is why I can assure Members on both sides of the House that unlike the system we inherited from the previous Government, we expect universities to review access and report on how they are doing on broadening it under our proposals not every five years, but every year.
There will be no loss of income for universities. We believe that students will continue to apply. They will not have to pay up-front, and they will be enabled by funds from the taxpayer to choose the university courses that they wish.
We believe that the proposals are the right way forward for our universities. All the Opposition can offer is delay. They did not even dare propose their graduate tax today, because we know that although the leader of the Labour party wants it, his own shadow Chancellor does not agree. They have not even proposed a graduate tax.
Labour left a mess in the public finances, and the Government must tackle it. If we do not tackle it in the way we propose, and if we go for the delay that the Opposition advocate, it will simply mean less funding for universities or more Government borrowing. Who pays the Government debt? It is the younger generation whom the Opposition claim to care about.
That is why the Government commend the motions to the House. We believe that we have tackled the challenge—in a time of austerity—of proposing a policy that is fair and progressive, and one that puts power in the hands of students and universities on a solid financial footing for the future.
Question put.
Business without Debate
Bus Service (Walsall)
Mr Speaker
Order. Before the hon. Lady presents her petition, as usual in these circumstances I appeal to hon. and right hon. Members who are leaving the Chamber to do so quickly and quietly, affording the same courtesy to the hon. Lady that they would wish to be extended to themselves in her situation.
Valerie Vaz
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
The petition is from the users of bus service 639, Walsall to Wednesbury. The petitioners are concerned about the way the 639 bus has been taken out of service from the Kings Hill area, Walsall. They believe that this action was taken without consulting the people who live in the Kings Hill area. They have noted that the reason given was lack of use. The petitioners believe that this was not the case, and that it was due to the failings of West Midlands Travel (Walsall), as the bus often did not turn up and was mostly late when it did. They are concerned that there is now not a service to the Manor hospital. They therefore request that the House of Commons urge the Government to call on National Express West Midlands and Centro to take all possible steps to put this problem right and ensure that the 639 bus service is reinstated. There are 119 signatories to the petition in similar terms.
The petition states:
The Petition of users of Bus Service 639, Walsall to Wednesbury,
Declares that the Petitioners are concerned at the way the 639 bus has been taken out of service from the Kings Hill area; notes that the Petitioners believe that this action was taken without consultation of the people who live in the Kings Hill area; notes that the reason given was lack of use, but that the Petitioners believe this was not the case and that it was lack and incompetence of West Midlands Travel (Walsall), as the bus often did not turn up and was mostly late when it did; further notes that there is not now a service to the Manor Hospital.
The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to call on National Express West Midlands and Centro to take all possible steps to put this problem right and ensure that the 639 bus service is reinstated.
And the Petitioners remain, etc.
[P000870]
Patient Confidentiality (Mentally Ill)
(14 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
I am delighted to have secured this debate. This is the second time I have addressed the House today and I hope that the consensus that was lacking in the earlier debate will be restored for this one, because hon. Members in all parties have the welfare of the mentally ill very much at heart. We are all constituency Members and we all have to deal with sad cases. Sometimes, we can do something to help people and sometimes it is too late to do anything to help those whom we have lost, but we can still try to achieve something in their memory to help other sufferers in future.
By way of background, I want to make it clear that I have no expertise or practical qualifications in mental health and that my doctorate is not a medical degree. I do, however, have a certain amount of experience stemming from when I first set foot in the House, in 1997, and came second in the private Member’s Bill ballot. The individual who came first in the ballot promoted a Bill to ban hunting and the Chamber was packed on that Friday. I am sorry to say that when we came to debate my private Member’s Bill, which was on improving conditions for people who suffer catastrophic breakdowns and need in-patient treatment, the House was back to its normal sparse attendance. Nevertheless, despite that somewhat cockeyed sense of priorities, the issue of mental health is an enduring one that requires great sensitivity.
Since those days, I have from time to time raised issues that affect my constituency. Most recently, I have been concerned about the closure of the psychiatric intensive care unit at Woodhaven hospital, which was constructed on the site of a former mental institution. I was delighted when that great facility was opened in my constituency a few years ago, and I worry about its future now that it has lost the intensive care unit. I recently set up a small group of people from different parts of the spectrum of mental health concern in the New Forest area. I asked members of that group, which is called “Support our Mental Health Services”, to drop me a note about why they had joined it. One lady, Mary Stephenson, is particularly concerned about the loss of the PICU at Woodhaven, even though we are left with an acute ward. She wrote:
“On any acute psychiatric ward, there should be an opportunity to remove very disturbed, noisy and possibly violent patients, to have private peace and ‘cooling-off’ facilities.”
That is also for the benefit of other people on the acute ward who do not require intensive psychiatric care. Unfortunately, that facility has now been lost.
We are also concerned about the future of Crowlin House, which is a sort of halfway house. People have joined our group because they are concerned that if that residential facility were to close, those currently housed there might find themselves put into care homes for the elderly or for those with dementia. That would not be suitable for people who are, in a sense, halfway between being in-patients and being in the community.
Other people have joined us from Solent Mind, which supplies various important services. It has drawn to my attention the fact that the community mental health team is coming under pressure, as it faces losing 20% of its budget because of the introduction of improving access to psychological therapies—IAPT. In itself, IAPT is a good idea, but it is fairly low level and not a specialist service. It was supposed to be in addition to the services available to my constituents. As I have said before in this House, the danger can be seen in what happened to the specialist student service in Southampton—I cite that example in view of today’s earlier debate. That service is no more because its functions were supposedly moved in the direction of IAPT, but in fact IAPT was not able to take them up. In addition, one of the beneficiaries of a scheme called supported permitted work, David Hayward, has written to me expressing his worry that that is under threat, and I understand that there are concerns about the position of the vocational advice service—my constituent, Lorraine Miller, has written to me about that.
I have painted a general picture about the state of mental health services, which is mixed. We have lost some good services, but we retain quite a lot of valuable assets, although we are worried that they might go. That is why we are setting up a campaign group to try to ensure their future.
My specific concern tonight is the problem that arises when somebody is mentally ill and the people treating that person feel unable to share information about that person’s treatment with their carers or their next of kin. For once, I can say that some excellent work has been done on the theory, but I am a little worried about the practice.
I have with me a briefing paper prepared under the imprint of the Department of Health, King’s college London, the Institute of Psychiatry at the Maudsley, Rethink and the NHS service delivery and organisation research and development programme. The paper goes right to the heart of the issue. It is entitled “Sharing mental health information with carers: pointers to good practice for service providers”, and it seeks to tread a delicate line between preserving patient confidentiality and letting people who care about these patients have vital information about them when they are not in their right mind.
Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate and beating me to it. I wish to raise the issues faced by a constituent who looked after her husband 24/7 until he passed away in 2006. He suffered from hallucinations, paranoia and depression. He also had falls, lost consciousness and regularly became violent towards her, all of which put a lot of pressure on their relationship and left her upset. Her health deteriorated and she felt that she could not look after him properly. It was not until he passed away that she learned that he had dementia. I have a question for the Minister: should the safety of the carer be put ahead of the patient’s right to confidentiality? Should we consider the severity of the patient’s mental health problem in determining whether they are fit to keep their condition a secret?
Dr Lewis
I am so grateful to my hon. Friend for staying after this somewhat trying and long day to make that important contribution, because it shows that I am not talking about some quirky, one-off situation. It is a very real dilemma, which requires great thoughtfulness and sensitivity.
I do not have time to go into the contents of that briefing paper in great detail, but I shall select just a couple of quotations that show how good it is. It says:
“Carers play an important role in many service users’ lives. Their knowledge and expertise represent an enormous resource for statutory and voluntary mental health services. These are reasons why it is so important to include them through sharing information. Providing carers with information to support them in their role can improve outcomes for both service users and carers…Carers fear being denied access to important information to help them in their role. They are also concerned that their own confidences may be broken.”
I came to the topic through the case of Mr and Mrs Edgell—my constituents David and Kay—whose lovely daughter Larissa, aged 34, hanged herself in 2006. They have obviously done everything that they can to come to terms with that, but I have a detailed file, which I have shared, because I knew they would want me to, with the Department and the Minister. I shall not go into the detail, because I do not have the time to do so, but it shows that from the earliest stages, back in about 2000, they warned of their fears that Larissa, or Lara as she was known, was seriously at risk.
Subsequently, in about 2004, Lara made a serious suicide attempt, but between then and 2006, when sadly—tragically—she succeeded, her parents were unable to know what was going on between her, the people who advised her in the NHS and, indeed, the people whom she saw privately, the private therapists.
I made it clear to Mr and Mrs Edgell that I felt that little could be done to improve on the excellent briefing document that I have only briefly quoted. It is an admirable piece of work and—unlike so much jargon produced in-house and, dare I say it, within the NHS—admirably clear. It is a first-class piece of work, and I would not alter a dot or comma in it.
When Mr and Mrs Edgell first came to see me in 2007, I wrote to the then Under-Secretary at the Department of Health—the hon. Member whose constituency I should have looked up. Is somebody going to tell me Ivan Lewis’s constituency? I am not the only who is stumped. That is the first time I have known Mr Speaker’s encyclopaedic memory to let him down. Sorry about that, Mr Speaker.
Anyway, I wrote to the hon. Gentleman and said that my main reason for doing so was to focus on two main issues relating to what had happened—[Interruption.] A voice off tells me that he is the hon. Member for Bury South (Mr Lewis). I am glad that we have sorted that out.
I said that I was writing on two main issues:
“The first is the frequent invocation by doctors who were seeing Larissa of the concept of ‘patient confidentiality’ when her desperate parents were trying to look after her interests at a time when she was too unwell to be the best judge of them herself.”
I went on to say that, after Larissa took her own life, Mr and Mrs Edgell investigated that matter and discovered that the Department of Health had an extremely good policy, set out in the paper that I have described, which it issued in January 2006. The paper seemed to show, as I said in my letter,
“a clear understanding of the importance of sharing vital information with those nearest to the mentally ill person”,
but, I pointed out,
“the best policy in the world is worthless if the doctors concerned fail to apply it either out of ignorance or obstinacy.”
Mr and Mrs Edgell discovered only when it was too late how many times—it said how many in the notes of their daughter’s various visits to medical professionals—she had had suicidal thoughts.
The response from the hon. Member for Bury South was rather disappointing. I see that I did write the name of his constituency on the reply, so I apologise for having embarrassed Mr Speaker for no good purpose.
In the reply, the then Minister states:
“As you state in your letter, the Department of Health had issued excellent guidance regarding confidentiality and people with mental illnesses. However, as you may be aware, the Government’s task is to set the national agenda, to put in place national standards and provide overall health service funding. The responsibility for deciding how the national agenda is delivered locally and determining how best to allocate these resources to meet the needs to their local populations rests with local health communities.”
I did not think that that was an adequate response. What is the point of producing excellent guidelines on highly sensitive, critically important, life and death matters, in that way and then relying on individual trusts to bestir themselves to the extent that they decide to apply or not to apply them? For once, it was the Conservative Opposition Member who was asking for a bit more central direction because, in this case, central direction was necessary.
The second main concern of Mr and Mrs Edgell was the lack of regulation of the private therapists whom Larissa had been seeing. Larissa was 34 when she died, and was well and truly an adult. However, it is a matter of concern that, even after her death, the people treating her outside the NHS have refused to give up any notes or information about what they were doing during the period she was desperately in need of help. Again, the reply basically said that Mr and Mrs Edgell might wish to contact the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy, which is a voluntary professional organisation that currently helps the psychotherapy and counselling profession to self-regulate. Frankly, that is no proper method of ensuring compliance when private therapists have been taking part in the treatment of someone who has ended their life under these circumstances.
My time is pretty much exhausted, so I will confine myself to saying that I hope I have done justice to my constituents and to the memory of their daughter. They have not failed to understand the delicacy of the issues involved and they hope that their daughter’s death will mean that, in the future, people recognise that the next of kin and/or the carer must be taken into confidence when people talk about doing away with themselves, even if those people are adults.
Adults do not have quite the same rights when they are not operating within their normal mental framework. We talk about people being “out of their mind,” which is perhaps an old way of saying something unpleasant about someone, but there is a literal truth in that phrase. I do not come from a Christian background, but I feel a particular sense of sadness when I hear people singing the famous hymn, “Dear Lord and Father of Mankind.” The third line states:
“Re-clothe us in our rightful mind”.
When people are not in their rightful mind, they need professional help. The professionals need to talk to each other and the mentally ill need the help of the people who have their interests most closely at heart. Those people are the next of kin and the carers. I would be most grateful if the Minister could give some reassurance for the future.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul Burstow)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) on securing this debate. Having had the opportunity to deal with two Adjournment debates this week, I reflect on the fact that this was an entirely fitting and appropriate way to raise very serious matters, which was not entirely the case in the debate that I replied to yesterday.
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise these issues and to bring a distressing case to the House’s attention. It is the most appalling human tragedy when a young person with so much to live for ends their own life. For the friends and family, the tragedy is all the greater when there is a sense that more could have been done to prevent the person from taking that action. I know that the parents of the young lady in this case continue to grieve for the desperate loss of their daughter. I can absolutely understand their need for answers and explanations, and for assurances from the relevant authorities that out of these tragic circumstances, some good may come. That is what I hope to be able to offer in my response.
I am afraid that I have to start my remarks by saying that this case has some painful similarities to that raised in another debate to which I responded a couple of months ago. In both cases, the clear and consistent flaw was that families and carers were not properly listened to or involved. Indeed, evidence from the National Confidential Inquiry into Suicide and Homicide points to this being a flaw in too many cases. Where things go wrong in mental health services, it is so often due to communication breakdown between agencies and families. While there has been progress in mental health services in recent years, there is more to be done. In some parts of the country, the system is too secretive and defensive, and not sufficiently joined up to secure the best results for the patient.
My hon. Friend will know that we set out in our coalition programme a commitment for hospitals to be open, and always to admit if something has gone wrong. That is why we plan to give effect to a duty of candour in which health professionals and managers would be expected to inform patients and families about actions which have resulted in harm. Mistakes happen—to err is to be human—but the key thing is that the NHS learns and improves practices so that the same errors are not repeated. I know that that is what the Edgell family are looking for. I expect all parts of the NHS to engage constructively with families like them to understand and learn from their concerns. That is also why we are determined to strengthen the arrangements for whistleblowing so that where standards slip or practice is poor, staff can raise their concerns in the knowledge that they will be treated seriously.
Patient confidentiality emerges as a consistent theme in the correspondence that I have seen between the family and the local NHS; I am grateful to my hon. Friend for passing it to me. He recognises, I think, that the judgments that mental health professionals make are often finely poised. They can be damned if they do and damned if they don’t. There is a balance to be struck between respecting the patient’s wishes, on the one hand, while also acknowledging how friends and family can contribute significantly to the person’s safety, ongoing treatment and recovery.
All NHS organisations have clear legal and ethical obligations to ensure that patient information remains confidential. To resile from this principle, particularly in an areas as sensitive as one’s mental health, would undermine the trust and confidence on which effective treatment is based, increasing the risk of the patient distrusting and disengaging from clinical care. It is very important to stress, however, that, as guidance provided by the Department of Health and the General Medical Council makes clear, patient confidentiality can and should be overridden to prevent significant harm either to themselves or to others. That very much goes to the point raised by the hon. Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey) in her intervention.
As my hon. Friend rightly said, patient confidentiality should not be a barrier to having conversations with families and carers. Those closest to the individual can play a crucial role in helping clinical teams to understand a patient’s illness, and in providing an early warning if their condition changes or deteriorates. I am deeply concerned that not all trusts are applying this principle in practice. We need some basic common sense and compassion in how health professionals deal with concerned families. Having read the paperwork that my hon. Friend shared with me, I cannot help but feel a sense that some medical teams were ticking the boxes but missing the point.
I cannot stand here at the Dispatch Box and enunciate lots of new principles. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that there is already very good practice guidance, as well as clear guidelines from the Department of Health, the GMC and others. However, what we need to do to achieve real change in practice is to ensure that it is clear where professional leadership comes from to drive the practice into everyday action on the ground. One of the actions that I will be taking as a result of this debate is to meet the relevant royal colleges to discuss how we can change and challenge attitudes within general practice—where this all began—and mental health services to ensure that the voice of families and carers is never ignored. Improving mental health is a clear priority for this Government.
There is no health without mental health. Next year, as a result of our commitment to prioritise mental health, we will publish a new mental health strategy, which will set out how the Government will invest in early interventions and the extension of talking therapies, to which my hon. Friend referred, for children and older people. Those things are not all that we must do, but they will make an important contribution to tackling the burden of mental health at an earlier stage, thus promoting recovery and reducing the burden on individuals and society in the long run.
In addition, we will publish a new suicide prevention strategy to set out the steps that the NHS and others need to take to further reduce suicide. I will ensure that the points that have been made in this debate are taken into account as we finalise that strategy.
There is no adequate answer that I can give tonight to my hon. Friend’s constituents to make up for their loss. However, I hope that my remarks and the fact that we have looked very carefully at what my hon. Friend said in his correspondence, assure him and his constituents that the Government are determined to do everything they can to ensure that the lessons from this case, and a number of other tragic cases, are translated into better practice in the future and that the good practice that is out there is not the exception, but the consistent norm.
Question put and agreed to.
Day Care Centres (Cheshire)
Westminster Hall
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
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The Future of Pubs
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con)
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate, Mr Benton, and it is an honour to serve under your chairmanship.
I want to begin debate by thanking the Backbench Business Committee, which gave the all-party save the pub group the opportunity to debate this very important issue. I was about to apologise for the absence of my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland), who chairs the group—hon. Members may have noticed that I am not the hon. Gentleman. However, he has now arrived, so I will not apologise for his absence.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill)
Just his presence.
Karen Bradley
I am taking the role that my hon. Friend was due to take, because he was participating in the important debate that is under way in the main Chamber.
The all-party save the pub group secured this debate and it is therefore incumbent on me to set out the group’s purpose and mission, which is to bring together Members of the Houses of Commons and Lords who want to add their voice to the efforts to preserve and protect the British pub. Pubs are now closing at an estimated rate of 39 a week. The group shares the profound concern that pubs up and down the country are being closed for a variety of reasons, often when they do not need to close, and that more must be done to offer support and make legislative changes to address this problem.
The group shares a belief that the British pub is an important part of this country’s history and heritage, and that pubs are hugely important to the communities they serve as a focus for community, social, sporting and charitable activity. The traditional public house also provides a sociable and controlled drinking environment, which is important to encourage responsible sociable drinking.
The group campaigns on a number of issues, including calling for changes in planning law properly to recognise the importance of pubs and to offer more protection to pubs faced with closure; calling for reform of the current model of the beer tie as operated by some of the big pub companies, which makes it impossible for some licensees to make a living and leads to pub closures, for example by making some pubs unviable that would be viable if they were free of the tie; calling for fairer levels of beer duty; challenging the Government to look at supermarket beer pricing, to stop below-cost selling in the off-trade, and to create a more level playing field between the on-trade and off-trade; calling for a change in the law to outlaw the practice of restrictive covenants, whereby companies sell pubs on the basis that they are prevented from continuing as pubs, thus denying a community a pub simply to benefit a company’s commercial interests; calling on the Government and local authorities to do more to support community pubs, including using the means of taxation and rates; campaigning to give local communities the right to buy pubs that are planned for closure, and supporting “The Pub is the Hub” scheme.
Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that members of the previous Government bear a large share of the blame for the predicament that many pubs now find themselves in, first because of the overly bureaucratic Licensing Act 2003, which means that many pubs are now unable to provide live entertainment, and secondly because of the implementation of the heavy-handed smoking ban?
Karen Bradley
I acknowledge my right hon. Friend’s comments. Although I do not believe that we want to make this a terribly party political debate, I think that he has made some very valid points.
I will cover some of the issues that I have already raised and on which the all-party group campaigns, and I am sure that colleagues will make their own contributions to the debate. It is incumbent on me to declare my own personal interest in this particular issue. For the last 43 years, my family has run a pub. My grandparents, my parents and my brother have been landlords of the same community pub. My aunt and uncle have also run pubs, so my family has had a long interest in the pub trade.
The pub that I grew up in was originally a tenanted pub belonging to one of the big brewers. It was then granted a long lease, following the beer orders of 1989. It was then bought out by one of the big pubcos. Finally, just over 12 months ago, my family, after 42 years of running the pub, were able to buy the freehold and buy out the beer tie, meaning that for the first time in all those years they were at last in a position where everything that they worked for was for themselves. So, I clearly have quite an interest in this issue. I want to explain what is unique about pubs.
Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)
My hon. Friend clearly points out the benefits to her excellent family business of buying the freehold of their pub and running it for themselves. However, does she agree that many pub companies offer a great product to the public, that they provide an opportunity for people to start their own small business and that, in many cases, they play a very important role in their community?
Karen Bradley
I thank my hon. Friend, and I note the points that he has made. My own personal experience of pub companies has perhaps not been favourable. However, I fully accept that they have a place and a role, as do brewers, and it is important that we have the pub industry working in a way that supports all types of pubs.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
I thank my hon. Friend very warmly for taking over this debate from me at short notice. Does she think it striking that small pub companies and indeed small breweries are doing exceptionally well and opening pubs, while the largest pub companies, which have very different business models that have been a cause of concern for the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, the previous Government and this Government, are in trouble, in debt and having to get rid of pubs every week?
Karen Bradley
My hon. Friend makes a valid and important point. That issue is part of the debate—again, we should not over-generalise and say that all pubcos and all brewers are bad. They are not bad; they are doing a job in difficult economic times. However, it is clear that the smaller ones are perhaps having more success than the bigger ones.
I would now like to explain what is so unique about a British pub. Pub closures are an issue that affects every single Member in this House; every constituency is affected by it. Running a pub is unlike any other business. It is a way of life, not a job. You live on site, and your home is a public house; people come into your home at all hours of the day and night, and expect to be welcomed into your home. Landlords—I apologise for using that generic term, and I want to make it clear that I mean landlords and landladies—have a civic responsibility to provide the heart of the community, and it should not be surprising to anyone in this country that the longest running TV programme in Britain, which today celebrates 50 years on our screens, is based, and has always been based, around the community pub.
Landlords have a responsibility to look after their customers, both in the pub and when they leave the pub. There are very few other businesses where the retailer can be held responsible for the behaviour of customers after they have left the premises. We do not often see a situation in which a supermarket gets into trouble if a customer uses a product that they have bought at the supermarket and then, let us say, disposes of it as litter; the supermarket is not held responsible. However, the pub landlord is held responsible when the customer leaves and engages in antisocial behaviour. Landlords also have a duty to the local community, to work with residents and authorities, such as the police, to ensure good behaviour. In my view, however, the most unique element of the pub business and one of the reasons why I think we are seeing so many pubs struggling is that no two pubs are the same, because pubs are absolutely dependent on the building in which they are located.
Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con)
As someone who has run some 40 pubs in my time, I agree with my hon. Friend that pubs are absolutely essential as the heart of the community. She is absolutely correct in saying that they are all different—all special, but all very different at the same time.
Karen Bradley
I agree absolutely, and that is a very good contribution to the debate.
It is not possible to take what works in one pub, move it to another building and make it work. Pubs have different clienteles, they are in different locations and they have different layouts. I accept that there are some pub chains that have a sort of homogenous generic feel, but I would assert that almost all the successful ones have not moved into existing pubs, but have taken other premises, such as old banks and shops, and turned them into pubs. What works in one community pub cannot be moved to another building and made to work there.
As we know, some pubs are based on food sales, and they can be successful, but other pubs are drinkers’ pubs. I know from experience that a drinkers’ pub cannot be changed into a food pub. It simply does not work. Customers who come for the drinking will leave if they think that it is a food pub, and others will not necessarily be attracted.
Andrew Griffiths
I agree with my hon. Friend’s comments. Does she accept that the smoking ban was one major reason why so many wet trade pubs, which focus predominantly on selling beer, closed? Many local pub customers left because the smoking ban was introduced. Although not many people in the industry are calling for the ban to be overturned—I do not think that that is what people want—does she recognise that those pubs have been hit particularly hard?
Karen Bradley
I do not dispute that some pubs have closed as a direct result of the smoking ban, but I do not think that the industry wants the ban to be rescinded. The pubs that have closed as a result of the smoking ban would not reopen if it were rescinded. The wet pubs that are successful have adapted to the smoking ban and compensated for it.
Dependence on a building makes a pub unique, but it is also at the heart of many problems that pubs face. As for pub companies and the beer tie, the beer tie has a long history. It dates from the time when brewers ran their own pubs and wanted to ensure that their pubs sold their beer, which is a sensible business model. Brewers had a vested interest in ensuring that their pubs were well run, and self-employed tenant landlords ran the pubs for them. Again, that is a good business solution. People were given the chance to run their own business and, as long as they paid their rent and continued to sell the brewers’ beers, the brewers could leave the landlords to it. Brewers had a guaranteed and responsible drinking outlet; clearly, they wanted to ensure that their landlords sold responsibly.
In those days, landlords bought directly from the manufacturer, cutting out middlemen and their margin. However—I remember it well—the industry moved to gain more security of tenure for tenants, who often had 12 or 18-month tenancies, as well as the option for landlords to sell guest beer, which is lucrative and allows them to make a significant profit for little extra effort. As a result of that pressure, the beer orders were introduced in 1989. No doubt the intention of the orders was good. They were meant to increase competition by reducing the size of brewers’ estates. Offering tied landlords the option to sell guest beers was a good move that allowed them to make more profits. The orders also gave tenants the security of 20-year leases. My parents were some of the first to benefit from the changes when they took out a 20-year lease and introduced a guest beer. At the time, the industry was positive about the changes, and welcomed them.
As is often the case, however, the problem with the legislation was its unintended consequences, by which I mean pubcos. Under the beer orders, only brewers are restricted in the number of pubs that they can own, and pubs owned by non-brewers, which do not sell only one brewer’s beers, do not need to offer guest beers. Pubcos became the middlemen, buying beers from a range of brewers and selling them to their tied landlords, who lost the right to offer guest beers.
The pubco business model is certainly clever and innovative. I am a chartered accountant—that is probably another interest that I should declare—and I must say that I have always admired the pubco model and thought that some clever financial whizz kid came up with it. Pubcos raise finance to buy large estates of pubs from brewers by securitising future rental income, which is the only asset that they have. Some of those pubs are tenanted, some are leasehold and some managed houses. The pubco makes money from its margin on selling beer to tied landlords and from its rental income. If a pubco wants to increase its profits, it must increase either margins on beer sales or rents, or both, which leads to landlords being squeezed twice.
Rents are based on barrelage, or sales, not rateable value or any other measure that I would consider sensible. Rents increase in line with the retail prices index, even when pubs are struggling, and are reviewed upwards if sales increase. Even if a self-employed landlord is successful and increases beer sales, their rent will go up and the profits of all their endeavours will be given back to the pubco.
Simon Kirby
I do not intend to interrupt my hon. Friend too often, I promise. Does she agree that many landlords suffer a penalty of tens of thousands of pounds for having tied leases? They must compete not only with pubs that are free of ties, but with managed houses. The price of a 36-gallon barrel of beer is often hundreds of pounds cheaper free of tie than it is with the tie.
Karen Bradley
I am coming to exactly that point. The margin on beer is the pubco’s other source of income. When my family bought out their beer tie last year, the pubco from which they bought the tie told them that the average additional amount that it charged per barrel under the tie was £185. A 36-gallon barrel of Carling Black Label sold under the tie was £369, compared to a free trade price of £227. Imagine us allowing any other industry to disregard free-market pricing so blatantly.
Pubcos have clearly accepted that many pubs are closing. That is not in their interests, so they try to help landlords who are struggling, which is undoubtedly a laudable aim, but they do so either by over-managing or by giving with one hand and taking with the other. For example, they might install monitoring equipment, ostensibly to help landlords see what is selling well and what is failing to sell, but the equipment is then used to establish whether the landlord is buying out of tie. The monitoring equipment sees how much beer is travelling from the cellar to the pump; the pubco then says, “That is more than you are buying from us. You must therefore be buying out of tie,” perhaps forgetting that it is in all our interests for the pipes to be cleaned regularly, which involves liquids other than beer going through them. The feeling—I accept that some of this is anecdotal—is that it is “them and us”, and that the landlord is guilty until proven innocent. The two parties should be working together to run a successful pub for the sake of the community, but instead they are fighting each other.
Greg Mulholland
I thank my hon. Friend for her generosity in giving way again. As we have not had a meeting recently, she might not be aware that both the all-party save the pub group and the all-party group on beer recently received a copy of a letter from the Fair Pint campaign to Enterprise Inns that raises serious issues about the Brulines system and Enterprise Inns’ use of that equipment. It is important to put that on the record. We await with interest developments in that case.
Karen Bradley
I was not aware of that letter, so I thank my hon. Friend for raising that issue. I look forward to reading it.
A pubco area manager might also suggest that a landlord adopt a practice that has worked elsewhere, such as showing live football. However, a one-size-fits-all approach does not work. Pubs are all different. Just because one pub succeeds in selling more beer after installing equipment to show live football, it does not mean that a neighbouring pub will do so as well, and it must be borne in mind that under leasehold agreements, the landlord is responsible for buying all the equipment, fixtures and fittings and entering into an arrangement with the sports provider. Landlords can therefore be left with significant outgoings and future liabilities, but no extra revenue. If they do make extra sales, their rent will be reviewed and increased the following year.
Andrew Griffiths
I am sorry to interrupt my hon. Friend again—she is making a strong case—but speaking as a Member who represents the constituency in which the country’s largest pub company, Punch Taverns, is based, I must urge her to accept that there are many pub companies in this country that support their tenants in a positive way. As a result of the actions of pub companies, there are many people in business who would not have thought about going into business without having that help, support and expertise. Although there are examples of practices that we should not be content with, the reality is that many people benefit greatly as a result of being an employee or tenant of pub companies.
Karen Bradley
I hope that I am not giving the impression that I am completely opposed to pub companies, because I appreciate that they have a place in the market, but it is important to put on the table some of the practices that are making it difficult for pubs to survive. The debate is about the future of the British pub, so it is important that we understand how pub companies and practices could be improved to save even more pubs.
Another area where pubcos may offer concessions on prices to tied landlords is in return for the landlord giving up the right to take income from, for example, gaming machines, pool tables and other such things. Gaming machines are a really important part of the landlord’s income, but many landlords find that they are forced to accept the loss of that income. The problem is that they have lower-priced beer, which they sell at a lower price so that more is sold. Their barrelage then increases, their rent goes up, and they end up no better off. It is important that we ask pub companies to look at how the rents are set, so that we can reach a point where it is in landlords’ interests to take the offers from those companies and work with them to make everyone better off.
I want to mention the Fair Pint campaign, which represents the interests of tied publicans across the UK. It has found that 67% of tenants earn less than £15,000 a year from their pubs, and that includes 50% of pubs that have a turnover of more than £500,000 a year. I can assure Members that one has to work very hard to sell £500,000 of beer a year—at £3.50 a pint, that is nearly 150,000 pints a year, or around 400 pints a day. I think that £15,000 a year is little reward for working that hard. It is no coincidence that most pubs that close are owned by pub companies, especially when one considers the effort involved and the fact that, no matter how hard one works, someone else can end up benefitting as a result of the contractual arrangements. As I have said, I accept that pubcos are here to stay and hope that, with a little action from the Government, we can make the system work better for all.
I ask the Minister to consider looking at basing rents on rateable values, or at some other system that does not penalise successful, responsible landlords. I also ask him to look at the beer tie to see whether a system could be developed that would allow a guest beer or some such incentive to be introduced. Good, well-run pubs encourage sensible drinking, so I hope that the Government will look at the sources of binge drinking, which largely are not pubs. Although I accept that there is a need to look at how policing is paid for, it will be little help to the pub trade if the responsible landlord has to make a contribution while the supermarkets and off-licences that sell at below cost price make no contribution because they close before midnight. Unlike many Government Members, I support the current licensing laws and ask that, instead of introducing new laws, the existing ones be properly enforced to ensure that those guilty of encouraging anti-social behaviour and binge drinking are targeted; that is preferable to a blanket restriction being imposed on everyone.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
I congratulate the hon. Lady on the way she is taking the debate forward. She will be aware of the current consultation on licensing. In my constituency, while many pubs are run well, temporary event notices are causing concern. Good pubs often seem to fail on that one little hurdle, so does she have any thoughts on how we should respond to the consultation with regard to that matter?
Karen Bradley
I absolutely agree. The point is that we should help the responsible landlords who encourage responsible drinking rather than binge drinking and anti-social behaviour, and we should use the law to clamp down on those landlords—we all have these cases in our constituencies—who flout the rules, encourage anti-social behaviour and are happy to sell at below cost price. As we know, people are going to supermarkets and off-licences to buy alcohol and are getting hideously drunk before they even go out. The pubs are getting the blame for that and it is not their fault. I accept my hon. Friend’s point and think that we should look at the consultation and make a robust response to it.
Finally, I ask the Minister to look at the planning laws to see how we can support the many communities across the country that rely on their local pubs and do not want to see them join the many others that have been shut. As I said earlier, the building is the most important part of the pub business, and we need to protect it to preserve that great British institution.
Mr Joe Benton (in the Chair)
Order. I intend to start the wind-ups at 5 o’clock so that the Minister has time to speak before the vote in the House. Many Members have indicated that they wish to speak, and we will do our best to get everyone in. I ask Members to be as brief as they possibly can be.
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Benton. I declare straight away that although I am not a pub landlord, I am a member of the Campaign for Real Ale, and so often associate the words “beer” and “pub”. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting the debate and the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) and my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley) for making a compelling case and securing the debate a couple of weeks ago.
Everyone knows that the pub is the heart of the community, especially in our rural parishes. I grew up in a city and so have a different relationship with and memory of the pubs I visited there, but in the parish, the pub is truly the place where one goes to get gossip, beer, often food, and companionship. I used to live in Hampshire, and even now I can say “pub” to my dog and she knows that we are going to the pub. Dogs are mainly welcome in rural pubs, which is another reason why they are a good place to be. I am sure that for many of us the most important feature when organising our election campaigns was the choice of which pub to go to at lunchtime and in the evening as part of our rest time.
Of course, going to the pub for the first time is a rite of passage. In the main Chamber today we heard about the rites of passage that some of our young people go through, but turning 18 and going for that first legal drink in a pub is an important one in this country. Anyone who has ever been to Epcot, a theme park in Florida where every country from around the world is represented by a particular village, will know that the bit that represents the United Kingdom is the pub, which shows the international recognition of that institution. Even Madonna was keen on her Friday night drinks when she lived in London.
However, the debate is not about rites of passage, or recognition that the pub is the heart of the community, but about the future of pubs. The statistics seem rather gloomy. The number of pubs closing each week seems to be increasing. We recognise that there are financial difficulties, partly because people are tightening their purse strings and deciding how much they want to spend, and partly because of the increasing duty that pub landlords and landladies face when selling their goods and because of the rent for the lease, which may have been fixed in the good times, but still has to be paid in the bad times.
The difficulties pubs face can also be the result of a lack of support and a lack of customers, perhaps because of changes in lifestyle. I think that another Member plans to talk about changes in permitted practice, particularly the ban on smoking indoors, which some have indicated has led to a drop-off in the number of people attending pubs. Anecdotally, I recognise that to be true. As most landlords will confirm, the smoking ban has led to a lack of drinking because people are outside smoking, so there is an element of transactions falling as well.
To be honest, there are some awful pubs in our country, but there are some terrific ones as well. Pubs are so much about the people who run them and the customers who go there. Like any small business, they have to be excellent in order to thrive, but we, as politicians, need to ensure that they have the conditions in which they can thrive. As any business knows, it is all about footfall, average transaction value and costs, and the first two can be increased only with a great business leader, and a great landlord and landlady.
There are about 54,000 pubs. About one third of them are free houses, which leaves a significant proportion of the trade tied and managed. I could be wrong on this, but I believe that there are more pubs than churches in our country, which reflects how important they are. Like churches, many of our pubs are tied to one religion—or one brewery. There are some excellent breweries. The brewery in my constituency, Adnams, has a significant number of excellent pubs. It promotes the community and has community awards—that is an important part of running an Adnams pub. I should also refer to the other excellent Suffolk brewery, Greene King, which also has a number of excellent pubs around the country.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
I am a great fan of pubs, as many pub landlords in my constituency know perfectly well, not just by what I say but by what I drink. I want to mention microbreweries, which perform a valuable function. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is a good idea to encourage microbreweries? I have done so by having a brew made called “Neil’s coalition brew”, which is proving popular. That underlines the role of microbreweries.
Dr Coffey
I hope that there is not too much froth on the beer when it is pulled—I am sure there is not. I am sure that the beer has a good head and a stout body. [Interruption.] He will bring us a bottle—excellent.
Of course, I recognise that there are restrictive practices. My hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands referred to the tie, and how it can be damaging to a landlord who wants to experiment with extra guest beers and so on. They can be told that they cannot do something. They can actually be told by the brewery, or by a landlord of a different kind, that they are not allowed, for example, to show football anymore. It can really kill a pub if the landlord has decided to branch out into a particular area and is then told that they cannot. I believe that sometimes that is done deliberately to try to run down the custom of a pub and lead to its closing. Why would someone do that? The reason has already been alluded to: planning. Let us be honest: sometimes the land, the building or the pub garden could fit in six or 10 houses, which would provide a great deal more instant income for a landowner than keeping a pub going in a particular area.
Options are coming forward. I am delighted that the Minister with responsibility for pubs is here to give us answers about community right to buy. Pubs are not small things to take on, but at least communities will be given the powers to take them on if they wish to, and that is good news.
My hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams) has introduced the Protection of Local Services (Planning) Bill, which he sees as a way of trying to restrict the change of use of certain amenities such as pubs, community centres and shops. I do not think that that is necessary. I cite Basingstoke and Deane borough council, where I used to live some time ago. Its planning policies were very restrictive. In fact, they virtually ruled out change of use of any community facility, including pubs. If a pub or shop is lost, they are gone for ever; it is almost impossible for them to return. We should encourage our local councils to look at examples of good practice where that element has been restricted without the need for primary legislation.
Looking forward and trying to be much more positive, pubs with the right ownership and freedoms have a safe future in our country. They need stronger freedoms. My hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands referred to guest beers, and my right hon. Friend the Member for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight) referred to relaxing laws about, for example, live music. I will name my landlords, but this will be the only time, Mr Benton. Rick and Jennie Powling run the White Horse in Westleton, which is the fine hostelry that I frequent every Friday night. They are paranoid whenever someone brings in a guitar. They almost leap on them and say, “You can’t play that here. You can play it outside, just not inside.” That is ridiculous and crazy. Music in pubs—not just specialist music pubs—is important. The community should be able to enjoy fine songs such as “Wild Rover”, and talk about beer, money and landladies to their heart’s content.
There are many people who want to speak today, so I shall come to a halt. The future will be brighter for our pubs if they are freer to operate—if they are set free from unnecessary regulation. Other Members will speak about pricing, but I would like to remove the distortion in the market that makes it cost that much more to drink in the pub than at home, where people can drink beer that they have purchased at below cost price. This is about planning, and encouraging our councils to be more restrictive and protective of their precious assets in villages, towns and cities across the country.
We must also encourage other income streams; I think of what is happening with post office essentials. If a pub is open from 11 until 11, there is no reason why one cannot buy stamps and get driving licence forms and so on there. There are also aspects such as the internet hub. We have the digital village pump, and I know that schemes are afoot already to try to ensure that it is near the pub, so that people can use the internet there as well. Of course, we had the endorsement of His Royal Highness Prince Charles in 2001, when he spoke about the pub as the hub. On that note, I raise my glass and toast the future of British pubs. Cheers, everyone.
Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Benton, for the opportunity to speak in this debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley) on securing it.
I would like to raise awareness of the problems facing local pubs. In recent years, there has been a steady decline in the number of pubs. Last year, local pubs across the country were closing down at the rate of 52 a week. There are many reasons for such closures. Obviously, some will be unavoidable. If a pub becomes financially unviable due to major competition, that cannot necessarily be handled. However, we have a large problem with pubs facing closure due to private investors buying them, not to run them as pubs, or with the intention of investing in them to help them become successful businesses, but with the intention of closing them to renovate them and turn them into numerous flats, which can be sold on to make some quick money.
I saw that with a local pub in my constituency on the Isle of Wight. The Partlands was a popular pub that was turned into flats. Such closures are having a negative effect on local communities up and down the country. The pub has traditionally been a focal point for local communities. Closing local pubs is killing village life.
Andrew Griffiths
I recognise my hon. Friend’s concern about pubs closing, but does he also recognise that many other buildings are being converted into pubs? In my constituency, an ex-high street bank has been turned into a pub. One sees many commercial premises being reinvented as drinking establishments. We should not get particularly hung up about the building, but should instead consider the facilities that it offers.
Neil Carmichael
Frankly, that is a very important point, all the more so because the Minister with responsibility for planning is listening to this debate and will, no doubt, respond to it. The point is that we need to introduce a localism element to encourage communities to start new pubs, and to ensure that they thrive and prosper. There is plenty of scope, I trust, in the decentralisation and localism Bill for that to happen, and this debate will strengthen that case.
Mr Turner
My hon. Friend is certainly right there. It is true that pubs open and close, and some pubs close and open. One on the island was the Sun Inn, Hulverstone, which reopened as a pub after people tried to get planning permission to make it a home. They failed to get that planning permission, and the property was pushed back to being a pub. It is a very successful pub.
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)
After many closures, one additional problem is that people can seek planning permission for many years. In villages, in particular, that can leave a gaping hole in the heart of the community, as properties remain boarded up for years, and I can think of many examples in my constituency. If we are too restrictive about planning permission, I worry that nothing will ever happen. However, I am pleased that the Minister with responsibility for planning is here, and I encourage him to find ways, through the localism Bill, of bringing such premises back into use, preferably as pubs, because, more than anything, I hate to see a gaping hole in the heart of a community.
Mr Turner
My hon. Friend is right. We must do what we need to in each village, and what is needed in one village might be different from what the next village needs. We must do that in a way that takes note of pubs, wherever they are.
The developments that I have described can lead to communities fraying, and to their members losing contact with each other. They can also lead to the scenario faced in many large cities, where people have little contact with their pubs. We must protect pubs from that threat, and the best way to do that is to restrict investors’ ability to buy pubs with the intention of closing them. That is the worst kind of purchase, and we must reduce the ease with which planning permission is granted for such changes.
We must also look at the fact that local pubs are becoming increasingly expensive and their competitiveness with other pubs is being reduced through compulsory ties. Such ties involve landlords renting pubs at high prices from large companies that then include in the contract clauses that force the pubs to buy their drinks from specific breweries. That forces landlords to raise their prices to cover their costs and to ensure that the pub is still profitable. However, that then leads many people—especially those feeling the effects of cuts and job losses—to avoid such pubs. We must therefore do more to help landlords maintain pubs and to reduce the burden that large companies, supermarkets and the law put on them.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
I thank you, Mr Benton, and Mr Speaker for understanding and accommodating my somewhat challenging situation, in that I have to speak in two debates at the same time. If I start going on about student fees, I hope that you will forgive me and put me back on track.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley)—when I say “Friend”, I mean it literally—for her excellent introductory speech, which showed a depth of real knowledge drawn from personal experience. I have had the great pleasure of meeting her parents, who, as publicans, have done such a good job in their community for so many years. I am absolutely delighted that they have now got their hands on their pub, that they own it and that they can run it as they like. We would, I hope, all agree that those of us who believe in small businesses and localism should want as many of our pubs as possible to be in the hands of those who run them, and the save the pub group certainly wants to campaign for that.
My experience of pubs is slightly different from that of my hon. Friend, in that it relates largely, although not entirely, to the other side of the bar. I have worked in some pubs, but I have spent an awful lot more time on the other side of the bar. A little over 18 months ago, however, I decided that we needed a save the pub group in Parliament because the British pub faced such a crisis and, as hon. Members have so eloquently explained, because the pub is central to our communities. As my hon. Friend mentioned, the pub is iconic to us as a nation. Pubs are unique to this country and are part of our heritage, history and culture, and we lose them at our peril. Sadly, we are losing them in great numbers.
The biggest scandal, which some organisations, companies and developers try to cover up, is that we are losing viable pubs every week. Some of those pubs are actually profitable when they are closed. As the hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) so powerfully said, that is happening simply as a result of the greed of developers and individuals who see an easy way to make money, and that is not acceptable.
I ask those hon. Members who are concerned that we do not go down the route of having more planning restrictions to accept that the community has the moral ownership of community pubs—pubs that have been in the community for years and years. Legally, of course, those pubs will go through certain hands, and as my hon. Friend said, they will have passed through the hands of breweries and into the hands of pub companies. Although the simple reality is that those organisations legally own the building and the business, the moral ownership is surely with the community that the pub has served for many years. That is not, however, reflected in planning law.
Andrew Griffiths
My hon. Friend has a great record of standing up for the great British pub in this place, and we all applaud him for that. I absolutely agree that we need to do all we can to preserve pubs, but one difficulty is that many people are put off making the large investment involved in buying a pub—purchasing a pub is a heck of a financial commitment. However, somebody who has attempted to run a pub and been unable to make it viable may be prevented from realising that asset if we introduce restrictive requirements for the sale of pubs. Does my hon. Friend share the concerns of those who say that the unintended consequence of that might be that we put people off investing in pubs and becoming landlords or publicans in the first place?
Greg Mulholland
I agree with the hon. Gentleman on many things, but I am afraid that I simply cannot see his logic on this occasion. Let me explain the position of the save the pub group to make it absolutely clear. If one pub business fails, he would surely agree that another pub business should have the opportunity to attempt to make the pub a success. At the moment, people are prevented from doing that simply because the owner says that they do not want the building to be used as a pub any more. Even if the entire community wants it to be a pub, even if it is viable and even if it makes an awful lot of money, the community has no say.
I am delighted that the Prime Minister has chosen, a little belatedly, to appoint a Minister with responsibility for community pubs, whom I had the great pleasure of welcoming at the save the pub group’s British pub week event a few weeks ago. That appointment is very positive, and it is handy that the Minister is also a Planning Minister. I therefore say to him that although we are looking forward to the upcoming decentralisation and localism Bill, it must give communities the right to have a say, through the planning process, in the future of community pubs, which we all say are so important.
Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)
Like others, I congratulate my hon. Friend on the huge amount of work that he has done on this subject. He talks about developers converting pubs and denying others the right to make a success of them. Are there not also examples, however, of owners who sell a pub on and, even though they do not wish to convert it themselves, make it clear by means of covenants and so on that they wish to prevent anyone from running it as a pub in the future?
Greg Mulholland
My hon. Friend raises an important point. I was coming to that, but I will cover it now. I have already raised with the Planning Minister some companies’ continued use of restrictive covenants, in which the company says, with no thought to the community’s rights, that a pub must never be allowed to be a pub again. That is a scandal. The previous Government said that they would outlaw that practice, which was a hugely welcome step. I am disappointed that the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) is no longer here, because I worked closely with him and I commend him on his work to support pubs. I ask the Minister to give us the good news for which we have all been waiting—CAMRA, in particular, has campaigned for this for many years—and to say that he will outlaw this totally anti-free market and anti-community practice once and for all.
Let me return to planning. I hope that I can address the concerns of the hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths)—Burton is, of course, one of the most famous centres, if not the most famous centre, for brewing in the country. The save the pub group says that we need to include two things in the planning process for community pubs. First, we need a genuine period of community consultation, which some councils have and some do not. Secondly, there needs to be a viability test. If a small business is viable, it should have the opportunity to continue as a small business, and should not simply be closed because someone can make a large killing by closing it, as my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands said.
Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend accept that in some communities it is not only the pub that performs an important social function, and that there are examples of viable shops and filling stations that have also been sold by people who want to make a quick buck? How does he recommend that the Government should overcome that problem, with planning changes related simply to pubs? Would the changes not have to extend to other community functions that might, to some people, be just as important?
Greg Mulholland
The good news for my hon. Friend and, indeed, the Minister is that I have exactly the answer to that very point. It is not my original idea. Being a politician, I may sometimes take the credit for things, but I will not on this occasion. A Bill has been proposed by CAMRA, and is, I am delighted to say, being promoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams). The Protection of Local Services (Planning) Bill will have its Second Reading in the new year. The save the pub group officially backs it. The Bill would do precisely what my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) has described; it would give councils the power to extend planning permission to local services that they designated. It would cover certain particularly important shops, post offices, pubs and perhaps petrol stations—the things that a community would identify for itself as important. Perhaps I may reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), who is passionate about pubs and beer, about this—I enjoyed a glass or two with her at the Great British beer festival earlier this year. We should support the Bill; it would not do what she fears. It would simply give councils the power to adopt those practices if they wanted to, and to extend the planning permission in question. The provisions would be flexible and decentralising, but would not impose anything.
Dr Coffey
My hon. Friend is right to praise the aims of the Bill. I support them. I simply wanted to point out that I am not sure that primary legislation is required. I think that councils already have powers. I cited Basingstoke and Deane as a good example of somewhere that has used those powers in its planning process and policies.
Greg Mulholland
I thank my hon. Friend for that point, but she is lucky. Clearly her council appreciates the importance of pubs, but many councils do not, and I am afraid that Leeds city council is one with a poor record of defending them.
Greg Mulholland
I am pleased that my hon. Friend raised that point, because I have had the same experience in Leeds, with planning officers telling councillors on the plans panel that the pub had no status and that viability could not be a planning concern, while at the same time councils around the country have taken the action in question. There is confusion, so we want to give the message, and empower councils. We want to give them the opportunity to take such action where they think it is important. I urge all right hon. and hon. Members to support the Bill, and the community pubs Minister to take those points forward if the Bill should fall, which I hope it will not.
Mr Knight
Does my hon. ally agree that the viability test must be objective, with an element of independence about it? There is a pub in my constituency the owner of which wanted to use the building for something else. Two years before he closed it, he deliberately stopped serving food, which was one of the most profitable aspects of the business, so that he could try to con council officers that the pub was not viable, although the whole village knew that it was.
Greg Mulholland
I do not think that I have ever taken part in a debate in which the interventions were so accurate and helpful. My right hon. Friend and ally is right that there is a scandal going on, with pub owners—whether individuals, pub companies or brewers—who have decided that they want to do something else with the pub deliberately running it down. Often an inappropriate person is picked to run it. That has happened in Leeds and, I am sure, around the country. It is a scandal, and takes us back to the fact that communities have no say in the process.
I hate to see boarded-up pubs. One of my local pubs, the Summercross, remains boarded up after we were conned by a company that told us it would quickly build a care home there. That was more than two and a half years ago, and it is still a huge eyesore in a very pleasant part of Otley. The surrounding community has no power. I agree that there should be powers to stop people land banking derelict buildings that could and should be used. However, we must not let that become an excuse for it to be made even easier for people to lose their pubs.
I welcome the community right to buy that the Government have proposed and look forward to hearing more about it from the Minister. It fits very well with the idea of the big society and with our passion for empowering communities, decentralising power and giving communities a voice. However, I have one note of caution to sound for the Minister about something I have raised previously. Although it is incredibly welcome that communities are to be given the opportunity to see whether they can take over ownership of their pubs, that will not solve the problem of popular, wanted and viable pubs closing. In some areas the community will be unable to take a pub on, or will not want to; but it will still want the pub to continue. I have seen many cases in which a good small pub company, small brewery or individual wanted to buy or take on a pub; but they can currently be prevented from doing so. Unless we include in the planning process a right for communities to have a say in a process, that gap will not be plugged. I ask the Minister to consider that.
I now turn my attention to the model of the beer tie operated by pub companies, which my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands has already outlined. It would be useful to give the House an update on the current position. I look, once again, to the Opposition Benches, because, after a long campaign fought by several organisations, the previous Government listened and acted. That was extremely welcome and I was delighted when the present Government, through Business Ministers, said that they would follow the process that was put in place by the previous Government. That was extremely important and positive.
I shall not go through the figures and the issue of the tie, but the present position is that three recommendations were made by the previous Government and adopted by the present one, and they come within ministerial responsibilities. The first is that the industry should ensure the accuracy of flow-monitoring equipment. We have already had mention of that. The second was the implementation of a code of practice; and the third was that Ministerial action should follow a failure to do those things and establish a code of practice that addressed the concerns of the Select Committee on Business and Enterprise. That is crucial. In addition, Ministers would consider the matter and would be minded to refer the matter to the Competition Commission if reform was not forthcoming.
I raised concerns with the Minister’s colleague, the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, to whom I was perhaps a little less kind in a previous debate, about the merging of the Competition Commission with the Office of Fair Trading and its implications for the process in question. That is in the light of the fact that the OFT came up with the extraordinary decision that, although it admitted that tenants were not treated fairly and beer prices to the customer were higher, there were no competition issues. I look forward to hearing about that.
So far the result of the process is that only two companies have established an accredited code by the deadline, which was 1 July 2010. The deadline for implementation was 1 October. Therefore 28% of British Beer and Pub Association members failed to meet their obligations. The BBPA framework on which the codes are based deliberately and explicitly excludes the commercial issues that constituted the problems highlighted in the ministerial response. Crucially, no company code offers a genuine free-of tie option to lessees and few offer a guest beer option. The reality—I have to make this clear—is that so far those companies deemed to be operating unacceptably to the previous Government and the Select Committee, and to this Government, are still doing so. Unless that changes significantly, Ministers will have to act.
I have to mention the codes of practice, some of which are now being produced. Hon. Members may not be surprised that I will mention specifically the Enterprise Inns code of practice, a glossy document that starts:
“Our new Code of Practice sets out our commitments to you”.
However, it generally sets out the tenants’ obligations to Enterprise Inns. Tenants are being pressed by Enterprise business development managers to sign the certificate of acceptance in the manner of a door-to-door window salesman. I ask the Minister’s colleagues in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to look at that, because not only are the codes—particularly that one—not delivering what they were supposed to deliver but there is a danger that they will make the situation worse, will put more onus on the tenant and are doing nothing to address the problems in that business relationship.
I shall mention something now that will upset deeply my colleague the hon. Member for Burton although he may wish to comment on it in his speech—I hope that he does. The largest pub company, Punch Taverns, is in a desperately parlous financial position. It gives me little pleasure to say so. There is a crisis in the biggest pub companies, which are in eye-watering debt. That is the biggest threat that the British pub faces at the moment. Hon. Members have said that that is because of bad business decisions—the sort of gambling that gave the bankers a bad name—including over-valuing their estates, and now they are in vast amounts of debt to creditors. Pubs are being sold and closed continually to deal with that. Enterprise has just raised another £9 million from auction.
There is concern that Punch is teetering on the brink. I hope that that is not so, because the last thing that we want is many pubs suddenly coming on the market and many of those being converted to other uses. That goes back to what I said before. We have to get something in the planning process that stops people simply getting rid of pubs for what they can get.
I come now to my final question to the community pubs Minister. It gives me great pleasure to call him that. The Minister is a fan and a friend of the pub and I look forward to chatting with him, perhaps over pints in pubs, as we move forward and work together with his team and the all-party save the pub group. Are the Government committed to a below-cost selling ban? I think that all hon. Members would support that to stop the scandal of supermarkets selling beer below cost. It is not a price-fixing measure or thinking that is against the free market; we are simply saying that supermarkets should not be selling beer below cost to get people into their stores. If they want to do that, they can do it with chicken or bread, or things that are useful to people, but they should not undermine pubs and sell irresponsibly.
Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)
I would not encourage supermarkets to underprice other goods, such as dairy products, for the sake of beer. I strongly support the hon. Gentleman’s saying that they should not underprice beer, but we should not encourage them to underprice bread or any other commodities, either.
Greg Mulholland
I was not suggesting that they should do that. If they really want to attract people to their stores in a moral way, they should do so with things that are of value. I am not for one minute suggesting that people should be under-cutting. I am one of many people—I am sure that colleagues have campaigned for it—who would like a supermarkets ombudsman and fair pricing for dairy farmers, for example. I reassure the hon. Gentleman on that point.
I have asked the Leader of the House about below-cost selling, which was not in the policing Bill last week, although many hon. Members thought that it would be. Can the community pubs Minister give us some news about when that will come forward? I hope that this is the last Christmas that we see irresponsible promotions that do damage to pubs, which also rely on Christmas.
Duty is a challenge. I congratulate the Government on not increasing beer duty again, because it has gone up too high and has been damaging. I hope that that message has got through, even in this difficult time, because putting too much duty on beer will have a detrimental effect, particularly on smaller and medium-sized breweries that come above the progressive rate relief, which incidentally we must keep for microbreweries that a colleague, who is no longer in place, so correctly mentioned.
My final challenge to the Minister is not for his Department, but is one that he should pass on. We must find a way to help pubs by allowing a differential rate of duty. That is a challenge with regard to European law, but we can face that and should not keep using it as an excuse. There are ways of doing that. One way, which has been raised, is to have a differential rate of VAT for pubs, which is worth putting on the table. Another way would be to have a differential rate for draft beer, which at the moment is believed not to be possible through EU law.
Another solution was given to me by the head brewer at Fuller’s in London. There may be a way to have a different rate of duty on real ale, specifically cask ale, which is our great national drink—our Burgundy and Bordeaux—of which we should be prouder and about which we should make more noise. Every barrel and cask that leaves a brewery has an allowable duty-free element, because it is a sedimented product. If that provision could be unified, it would remove all the bureaucracy of checking at the gate and the different rule per beer and there might be a way to allow a different rate of duty perfectly legally within EU rules. I put that challenge to the Minister.
I thank all hon. and right hon. Members for attending this important debate. It is great to see such a wonderful turnout and I know that they are all passionate. I look forward to working with all of them, and with the community pubs Minister and the all-party save the pub group, to do as much as we can to support and save our great British institution.
Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con)
I have long been of the view that the local pub is an essential part of the social fabric of our communities and that it plays an important role in the social cohesion of areas. Just to make it clear, I am talking not just about city centre pubs and clubs, which the journalist, Simon Heffer, called “impersonal drinking factories” in an article in The Daily Telegraph in June, but about local pubs that serve their own local communities in both rural and urban areas.
I regularly visit two pubs, both of which are within walking distance of where I live, and I will mention their names, because it is relevant to the debate. The Stokers pub in Little Stoke is a 10-minute walk away. Eddie Benjamin, the landlord and a friend of mine, and I have discussed his struggle to remain open. Eddie has run the Stokers for 15 years, but now under present circumstances he is struggling to keep his community pub alive, viable and in business. It made a small loss last year. He has had to endure a doubling of the business rate, from some £16,000 to £34,000—an increase of nearly £18,000 a year on a pub that made a small loss. Sky Sports charges are linked to the pub’s rateable value, and that cost has increased from £9,200 a year to £13,500 a year, an increase of roughly a third. As has been discussed often and at length, the smoking ban probably affects all pubs throughout the land.
Overall, the smoking ban has been positive. It has improved the environment of pubs no end, especially for those that rely on serving food as a key part of their business, and it makes for a much more pleasant experience for most people who are non-smokers. It has also made pubs more family friendly. But there needs to be a re-think on having a dedicated smoking area inside buildings, with extractor fans, where no children would be allowed and no food would be served. I realise that this would not be possible in every case, but it would allow many pubs to utilise extra space or even have a smoking bar and non-smoking bar or room/lounge—whatever—and end the practice of smokers being thrown outside in all weathers at any time of day or night, with the problems that can be caused with disturbance to local residents who live close by. That would generate a significant increase in business for pubs that are currently struggling and it could make the difference between a pub staying open or closing.
Although in a commercial world we have to make hard-headed decisions based on profit and loss, let me give specific examples from my other local pub, the Beaufort Arms in Stoke Gifford, which does fantastic work in the local community. Yesterday, I rang the landlord, Jason, and told him that I intended to speak in this debate. He gave me examples of where the pub really was reaching out to the local community. For example, it funds the transport costs of the local Filton brass band, and it is having a big draw just before Christmas, with the money raised going to local charities. I have attended functions of the Stoke Gifford branch of the Royal British Legion at the pub. The Beaufort has been a great supporter, and is a great focal point for the local community.
Another pub in my constituency—I will not mention its name—has offered to open its doors to help to facilitate a postal service in the village. When the local post office closed down, we were looking for avenues to provide a temporary service, and the pub offered its services, which would benefit the whole village. The landlord of the Beaufort was anxious to ensure that, although binge drinking receives much bad press in the media, we do not allow all pubs to be stigmatised. My experience is that real local pubs promote sensible drinking.
I support the Government’s suggestion of local communities being given the opportunity to take over local pubs under new powers in the localism Bill, perhaps funded by the big society bank. But we must ensure that as many functioning pubs as possible remain open.
Dr Thérèse Coffey
I welcome my hon. Friend’s support for community pubs. Will he consider the Plunkett Foundation, which supports community shops and pubs, and particularly the right to buy that he referred to?
Jack Lopresti
Absolutely. I thank my hon. Friend.
The Government must also encourage further co-location of services in pubs. There are examples of post offices being set up in pubs, and delicatessens and small shops being incorporated into pub design. Thus the public as consumers can take responsibility to support, enjoy and encourage others to experience the hospitality and pleasure gained from a trip to the pub, and to inform others what the loss of such valuable community hubs would mean for quality of life and social cohesion in our local areas.
Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)
I welcome the community pubs Minister to his position, and congratulate him on his elevation. Few Members of the House have done more to support brewers and the British pub industry. The coalition Government’s commitment to the pub trade is demonstrated by our pubs Minister being pint-sized, and I am sure that he will be stout and resolute in his support for the industry—[Interruption.] And never bitter.
I thank my hon. Friends who arranged the debate. It is testament to the House’s commitment to the pub and the beer industry that so many hon. Members are giving up their valuable time to contribute to this substantial debate on a day when such an important discussion is taking place in the main Chamber. That is hugely encouraging.
I also welcome colleagues from the Campaign for Real Ale. Everyone will agree that it has done a huge amount of work to develop real ales, and to support British pubs, and we should commend its work. Long may it continue to strive and to develop. The manifestos of all the main political parties at the last election included a commitment to the British pub. The Liberal Democrats, the Conservative and Labour parties all had a section pledging their support for the British pub and brewing industry, but the pub trade is still in a perilous state. My hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) said that 56 pubs were closing every week. I am pleased that the statistics that I was given recently showed that that number has slowed to 30 pubs a week, although we all recognise that that 30 is too many.
Karen Bradley
Perhaps the rate has slowed down because there are fewer pubs, so the stock of those that can be closed is smaller.
Andrew Griffiths
That is absolutely true. Last night, I hosted the all-party beer group’s Christmas party. We sampled 25 brews from some of Britain’s best brewers. I was pleased that Marston’s was represented, and I am told that it will open 20 new pubs this year, which is encouraging, but we recognise that the pub estate has shrunk dramatically, and every pub lost is a community resource that will be missed. If we are to stick up for the commitment that all parties made at the general election, we need action, not just talk and fine words, to deliver meaningful support to the British pub and brewing industry.
It is important to examine why we are in this situation. There is no doubt that the smoking ban had a dramatic impact on many pubs throughout the country. Many pubs that were reliant on the wet trade were unable to find alternative income when drinkers who had used their pubs for many years decided that if they could not enjoy a cigarette with their pint they would stay at home with a can of lager and sit in front of the television to smoke. That is regrettable, but we all recognise that the time to overturn the smoking ban has passed.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
My hon. Friend is right to say that there is no chance of overturning the smoking ban, but I like to think that there may be a chance of introducing legislation to allow smoking somewhere inside pubs. Overturning the smoking ban is not realistic, but it is a realistic ambition for people to have the opportunity to smoke in pubs somewhere where other people do not have to go.
Andrew Griffiths
I understand my hon. Friend’s concern, and many people support his suggestion. The danger is that if we lose sight of the real problems facing pubs and focus on reintroducing smoking in them, we may lose our focus on the more pressing problems that lead to pubs closing.
Greg Mulholland
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. I apologise, Mr Benton, that I did not explain earlier that at the request of the Speaker I must return to the main Chamber after his speech.
The save the pub group does not have a position on the smoking ban, but we called for a review of its impact on pubs and clubs. That was promised by the previous Government, and it is disappointing that the response by the Department of Health to the save the pub group was that it would not go ahead with that review. We believe that it should take place.
Andrew Griffiths
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. His commitment, effort and determination to stand up for the British pub are laudable. I was fortunate to spend a few hours with him at the British beer festival, and there is no doubt that he is a big supporter of the brewing industry.
There is an elephant in the room that we have not yet discussed. We debate the impact of the tie, and whether it is good or bad to have so many pubs in the tie. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) referred to Punch Taverns, and I am delighted that Burton is the home of brewing. It is where Bass, which used to be the world’s No. 1 brand, was developed, and we are still the home of Marston’s Pedigree and Carling Black Label. We even brew Cobra for anyone who likes beer with their curry on Saturday night. It is the home of the National Brewery Centre, and I urge anyone who has a spare hour to come to Burton and enjoy the delights of that reopened centre, which gives a fantastic insight into our brewing heritage and history. Burton has a proud heritage of brewing, and we are what we are because of our brewing history. However, we want the brewing and pub industries to have a bright and exciting future.
Punch Taverns has been through many difficulties over the years. I recently met Ian Dyson, the new chief executive who has just taken over. I was reassured to discuss his plans for the future of Punch Taverns at some length, and in particular his desire to work with his tenants, support them and focus on their needs. The company has learned many of the lessons that other pubcos perhaps still need to learn. Because of that, I hope for both Burton and Punch Taverns that the future is bright.
What we are missing is a change in people’s drinking habits. Hon. Members may be surprised to learn that 70% of all alcohol sold in this country is sold through the off-trade and supermarkets, and we cannot ignore the impact that supermarkets have had on our drinking habits. The smoking ban is a problem, and there is no doubt that supermarkets have capitalised on that and used their might to drive down the price of alcohol on supermarket shelves, particularly beer. That has had a major impact on the viability of pubs. Let us be honest: pubs will survive if publicans can make a fair living.
Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)
My hon. Friend makes a good case on behalf of the pub industry. Does he acknowledge that in addition to the difficulties caused by low-cost selling and the special offers by large supermarkets, the huge increase in beer duty under the Labour Government—around 26% over the past two years—has had a very detrimental effect on the pub industry? That has widened the gap between the purchases that people make in off-sales and those they make at the local pub.
Andrew Griffiths
My hon. Friend, as always, makes a valid point. In fact, the figures are worse than he suggests. Under the previous Government, duty on beer increased by 60%, while the increase on spirits was just 15%. That differential has had a huge impact on the viability of the British brewing industry. It is no surprise, as hon. Members from all parties will realise, that as a result of 13 years of Scottish Chancellors, the Scotch whisky industry has not, unfortunately, suffered the same increases in duty as those suffered by the British beer industry. I hope that the new Chancellor and the coalition Government will be more supportive of the brewing industry and our pubs.
It is encouraging that last week the Treasury announced innovative and well-thought through proposals on what I call “smart taxes.” The idea is to increase tax on bad things and reduce it on good things. Reducing taxation on lower-strength beers and spirits and increasing it on higher-strength drinks would support the vast majority of the British brewing industry and help to nudge people—we all know the phrase “the nudge approach”—towards choosing a more responsible and healthy drink when they go out for a tipple on Friday or Saturday night.
We must do something about the change in people’s behaviour and their drinking habits. When I was elected, one of the first things I did was spend a Friday night with the local police in Burton. I was with them from 6 o’clock in the evening until 3 o’clock in the morning. We walked the streets and I went out with them as they dealt with the consequences of people who had had too much alcohol in what the Daily Mail likes to call “Drink-fuelled Britain”.
I am not a young man, but I am not an old man. I remember when I used to go out with my friends for a night on the town, a night on the pull. [Laughter.] We were more successful at drinking than we were at pulling, unfortunately. We would go out for a night on the town and we would probably meet at about 8.30 pm. We would have a couple of drinks and then head to a nightclub to try our luck with the ladies of Dudley. The nightclub would close at 2 o’clock, and that would be the end of our evening.
As hon. Members will know from their own high streets, young people now go out much later. I saw that they were not going out on the streets until 10 or 11 o’clock in the evening and when they arrived, they were already half-cut. As the phrase goes, they had “pre-loaded”. While at home, they drank alcohol that they had bought from supermarkets at cheap prices. That is the heart of the matter and something we must address if we are to offer real support to the pub trade.
While there is a vast differential between the off-sale price and the price at which pubs are forced to sell their drinks, people will always drink at home. If one can buy 24-packs of strong lager, or a can of lager in the supermarket that is cheaper than a can of Coca-Cola, that is the biggest nudge of all.
Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)
On that point, perhaps I could read out a letter that I received from Mr Geoff Dennis, manager of The Goat in Battersea:
“We have all seen the results of young people ‘pre-loading’ on cheap alcohol in preparation for a night out, which can often lead to alcohol-related crime and disorder and only causes problems that we as pub managers then have to deal with later on in the evening. Below-cost selling of alcohol directly threatens the future of pubs which offer not only a focus for community life but also provide a safe and supervised place…to drink responsibly.”
Andrew Griffiths
My hon. Friend and Geoff from The Goat make a point of which we must all be aware. Not only do pubs suffer as a result of the price differential, they have to deal with the consequences. Although Tesco might sell a bottle of Lambrini for £1.90 for the young ladies of Dudley, Burton, or wherever, to drink before they go out, pubs have to deal with the supervision that involves not only the doorkeeper on the door, but those inside who must ensure that they do not serve alcohol to people who are already drunk. Over many years, we have seen the full cost of regulation being borne by the publican, but the supermarkets that have led to much of the unsupervised drinking do not have to deal with any of the consequences.
Simon Hart
Does my hon. Friend acknowledge that some supermarkets, including Asda, have changed their policy and introduced minimum pricing and limits? That indicates some positive moves in the right direction.
Andrew Griffiths
I thank my hon. Friend for raising that issue. That is true. I have met Asda and Tesco and some of the other supermarkets. It is important to realise, however, that the devil is in the detail. When we talk about below-cost selling, we need a proper definition of what that means. Asda advocates a below-cost selling method of duty plus VAT. That would be the equivalent of a bottle of wine being sold for £1.90 or a can of lager for 42p. I do not know about my hon. Friend, but I think that that is too cheap. If someone can tell me where I can buy a bottle of wine for £1.90, I might be interested to go and sample some of those wares—responsibly, of course.
Mr Andrew Turner
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for letting me intervene again. Does he accept that many years ago there were things called off-licences? Off-licences seem to have controlled things rather better than supermarkets. What is different?
Andrew Griffiths
My hon. Friend makes a good point. The difference is bulk buying, and the power of supermarkets to drive down the price for the brewers is the crucial factor. Earlier in the debate we heard about the methods used by supermarkets to force down prices paid to our dairy farmers, and we have seen a drastic reduction in the price that they receive at the farm gate.
Karen Bradley
The issue is not just the power of the supermarkets in buying, but the fact that they use alcohol as a loss leader to get people into the supermarkets, where they buy other goods. The supermarkets offset the profit that they make on other goods against the loss that they make on alcohol.
Andrew Griffiths
As always, my hon. Friend is spot-on. We cannot allow a situation in which the supermarkets are fuelling the phenomenon of binge-drinking, which we see all too often on our streets. I am not trying to hype that or to scaremonger. The fact is that the irresponsible pricing by supermarkets has led to an increase in consumption. The facts speak for themselves. In 1992, 527 ml was the average for alcohol consumed at home; in 2008, that increased to 706 ml. In 2000, 733 ml was the average for alcohol consumed away from the home; in 2008, it was 443 ml. It is cause and effect. Cheap, irresponsible pricing by supermarkets is changing people’s drinking habits and leading to unsupervised drinking.
Glyn Davies
I thank my hon. Friend for allowing me to intervene again. I agree absolutely with what he is saying. I have been involved in discussions of this type and I am quite often asked, “Well, what precisely would you do about the issue?” My natural instinct is to oppose the idea of regulation, which leads me, in dealing with the issue of rural pubs and prices in supermarkets, to be a bit reluctant to say, “We’ll just pass a law to enforce this.” I just think that we need to explore what we might be able to do to raise the price charged in supermarkets.
Andrew Griffiths
As always, my hon. Friend’s inner conservative core comes through. I do not want to interfere in people’s lives. I do not want to interfere in the pricing, but the reality is that either way, society is paying for the impact of irresponsible pricing by supermarkets. We pay for it in the social toll that it is taking on society, we pay for it every Friday and Saturday night in increased policing costs, and we pay for it in the impact on accident and emergency units throughout the country when people have drunk too much alcohol.
Rory Stewart
Would my hon. Friend tax it more? Is that not the way to deal with the matter?
Andrew Griffiths
That is a suggestion. I think that with the new coalition Government, there is now recognition that something needs to be done. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, in numerous speeches, has made the commitment to ban below-cost selling. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West points out that we were expecting that last week in a Bill. It did not arrive. It is incumbent on us to press the Government to deliver on their promises, but if we cannot come up with a solution—a method for identifying what is below-cost selling that works—we should go down the taxation route. Exploring the idea of an off-sales tax would be interesting. Such a measure would help to level the playing field between the supermarkets, which have no responsibility for the after-effects of drinking, and the pubs, which, in contrast, have to pay for and deal with the implications when people drink too much alcohol.
I will finish my remarks quickly, because I have spoken for some time, but the industry does have to bear a little responsibility. It has not yet coalesced around a definition of what below-cost pricing means. There is an element of interference from Brussels that prevents us from clearly targeting it. I am referring to European competition laws. However, it cannot be beyond the wit of man for civil servants, the industry and retailers to get together and come up with a solution for below-cost selling that takes into consideration the cost of production, that leads to an increase in the price of alcohol on the supermarket shelves and that will begin to redress the balance and support our pubs.
I say to the Minister that although not many Opposition Members are present, there is a strong commitment on both sides of the House to support pubs and to tackle below-cost selling. We look to him not only to do what he can within his area of responsibility in the Department for Communities and Local Government, but to be a pocket rocket for the brewing industry and the pub industry, to be our champion across Whitehall and across Departments to ensure that we can say that this coalition Government, for the first time, did something to help British pubs.
Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con)
I congratulate my colleague, the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland), on securing the debate. It is with some trepidation that I follow the eloquent speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths). We have heard that the problems facing the pub sector are of great concern to the House. Pubs play important roles as community hubs in many constituencies throughout the country. Accordingly, we need to consider how they can be protected and helped to flourish in future.
I want to draw attention to the way in which live music, in particular, can contribute very positively towards supporting pubs and their future earnings. Last year, PRS for Music worked with the British Beer and Pub Association to conduct research, which showed that pubs with featured music take 44% more money than pubs without featured music; more than 80% of pub managers thought that music would help them to survive the recession; and, on average, pubs without featured music are three times more likely to close than pubs with featured music. In response to those findings, PRS for Music worked in partnership with the BBPA and the Musicians Union to launch a music makeover campaign to encourage pubs to use more music to benefit their businesses and help bring communities together. We should applaud the efforts of PRS for Music, which will be sending advice to 45,000 pubs on how to use music to maintain and grow their business.
We should not lose sight of the fact that the relationship between pubs and music is broadly symbiotic. The music industry is well aware that pubs can provide a platform for new musical talent to develop. Small or secondary venues are very important to the long-term health of the music industry and play an important part in the development of new artists and minority genres of music, adding to the general diversity of cultural entertainment available to the public.
In Hove and Portslade, which I represent, and in the wider Brighton area, we are fortunate that we are reasonably well served by music venues. That adds greatly to the local economy and area. We need to ensure that we can maintain that great asset for the city, which encourages the local music scene and helps musical talent to develop. Music is integral to my area, as is witnessed by: the success of colleges such as the Brighton Institute of Modern Music, which is in my constituency; industry events such as the Great Escape conference; Brighton and Hove being a destination on the touring and gigging circuit; and, of course, the success and future success of home-grown talent. Pubs such as The Prince Albert, in Brighton, offer a venue to unsigned and up-and-coming bands. The excellent Neptune Inn, in Hove, is a key small venue and a marvellous pub. Similar venues include the Latest Music Bar, which offers young songwriters and performers a chance to perform. We jeopardise these pubs and essential music venues at our peril.
The Government have an important role to play in removing unnecessary regulation. The previous Government brought in the Licensing Act 2003, along with a big promise that live music would flourish as a result of the change in the law. In truth, the Act has made it difficult, costly and administratively time-consuming to make live music a part of the licence for premises whose main business is not to provide music.
The 2003 Act had four fundamental objectives: the prevention of crime and disorder; public safety; the protection of children from harm; and the prevention of public nuisance. None of the primary objectives, and in particular the objective on crime and disorder, has ever been substantiated as a concern with regard to live music. Furthermore, there is no evidence that high levels of background music—live or otherwise—in pubs and bars can lead to customers drinking faster or being disorderly.
One of the major challenges of the 2003 Act is that although a majority of local authority licensing committees have adopted a professional and sensitive attitude to requests to promote live music, unfortunately too many have paid too much attention to the views of a vocal minority. Unfortunately, residents are encouraged to object to, but not to support, applications to promote live music. Licensing committees should give live music the benefit of the doubt. The Licensing Act 2003 allows for conditions relating to live music to be added to a premises licence, where necessary, at a review, but the Environmental Protection Act 1990 is also used to prevent noise nuisance. Sometimes an authority’s interpretation could be said to be a little draconian. I salute the work of the Noise Abatement Society, based in Hove, and its “Sound Approach” scheme, which helps to facilitate good relationships between responsible venues and those living nearby.
We have a commitment in the coalition agreement to reduce red tape and promote live music, which I very much welcome. I urge the Minister to bring forward the necessary changes to the Licensing Act 2003 at the earliest possible opportunity. We should be able to exempt venues with a capacity of 200 persons or fewer from the need to obtain a licence for live music. An exemption enabling venues of any size to put on a performance of non-amplified music would also be welcome.
I would like to highlight a problem that may be on the horizon. The Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill is due to have its Second Reading next week. Although I appreciate the need for licensing authorities to be able to impose specific conditions on premises licences and temporary event notices in limited circumstances, we should enable the application system to be as quick, easy and cheap as possible, with limitations on rejections unless there are very good grounds for preventing an event. We should not make it easier to stifle live music performances; rather, we need to find ways to allow live music to flourish. If we do that, we can, in an incremental way, help our pubs to remain open and at the heart of our communities.
Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)
Given the time and the nature of the debate, I shall restrict my comments to championing proudly the small rural pub. In the old days, rural communities had the post office, the bank, the shop, the garage and the pub. Then, the community had just a few of them, and then even fewer, and now, if we are lucky, it might have only a pub. We are losing pubs at a rate of 40 or 50 a month, as we have heard. That is more than a shame or a mild inconvenience to the communities who depend on them—in many cases, for most of their lives. We can only remove the beating heart from a community once, and yet over the past few years we seem to have done it time and again, and we are then surprised when that community withers and dies.
Hon. Members have made passionate speeches about their areas, and each constituency will have its list of fantastic pubs and institutions. I will be no different, because I want to highlight precisely what this issue means to me. There is a little place in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire called Cresswell Quay with a pub called the Cresselly Arms, run by a great and old friend of mine. In that pub we used to gossip, talk, commiserate, celebrate and do almost everything other than drink and smoke—those were the least of the services the pub provided. Without a shadow of a doubt, it was the one place to which everybody turned at any time of year, for various reasons.
My hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley) mentioned the value of the landlord and, indeed, the landlady, and I cannot overemphasise the importance of that appointment. They were more than people who pulled pints and dished out the odd bag of crisps; they were our friends, advocates and advisers. They told us when we were doing things well or badly, if our neighbours were ill, or if the dynamics of the village were changing. They gave us advance warning of things that were important to our communities.
Karen Bradley
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. He is powerfully making the point, which perhaps has not been made so far, that there is a human cost of pubs closing. Those pub landlords and landladies have put their all into their pubs. They have, perhaps, put their life savings into the pub, and if that pub fails, they lose their home and their savings—they lose everything. We have to remember that human element and cost when we see pubs close.
Simon Hart
My hon. Friend reflects my view. The example I cited—and I cited it because I know that everyone has an equivalent example—completely epitomises everything that a local pub stands for. My landlord—my friend, Mr Cole—has probably carried more coffins than the local undertaker. He is a pillar of the community. He is the pioneer of the big society. He started talking about the big society while we were still babes in arms. Somehow, we have managed to get ourselves into a position where all of that is at risk. We have allowed these institutions to be strangled by red tape and regulation. We have allowed them to be strangled by increased alcohol duty and by layer upon layer of increased planning restrictions, which constrict the ability of businesses to grow.
I make a special plea to the Minister: will he spare a thought for those institutions that have to operate in national parks? I have made a few speeches recently that may lead to me being accused of being anti-national park. I am not, but I hope that national parks across the UK see it as their duty to enable good local community institutions and businesses to grow. Their job, in my humble opinion, is not to stop growth but to enable it in a way that is sympathetic to the park.
Andrew Griffiths
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. I can give him the example of a hard-working pub in Dartmoor with a small derelict barn, which the landlord wanted to convert to offer more food facilities. The planning application was turned down. An application to knock the barn down was made, and that, too, was refused. The planning regulations are preventing that business from being successful.
Simon Hart
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I am afraid that his story is just another in a long line of examples of bureaucracy strangling rural communities. We somehow have to reset the default position that certain planning authorities seem to have, which is: “Whatever it is, the answer is no.” Rural communities are about people. Of course they are also about landscape and buildings, but the landscape and buildings are worth nothing unless there is a rural community to inhabit, embrace and love them.
I will keep my comments brief and conclude with four questions, which may verge on statements. When proposals come along, perhaps through the localism Bill, will the Minister please, please ensure that there is just a little paragraph somewhere saying, “Rural-proof”. If a measure has a downstream implication that may disproportionately affect rural communities, please bear that in mind. The previous Government’s introduction of the concept of rural-proofing was worth while; the only problem was that they did not apply it. It was a good idea that was not applied. The Rural Advocate was a good appointment, but the position was not properly used. The principle behind it is that no matter which Department is passing legislation or why, it should always check how it applies to rural communities down the line. Does the legislation have a disproportionate effect on them? If so, how can we minimise the damage from that disproportionate effect?
I completely embrace the suggested inclusion in the localism Bill of measures to empower local communities to pick up and run with failing pubs. I am tempted to mention a compelling example of that in Penrith and The Border, but I will not because I have a feeling that someone else might. We must stop the inequality between tenants and freeholders—the beer tie has been mentioned. We must overhaul the licensing system and temporary event notices, which were mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams), and we must reform the planning system to enable co-location of other services that local communities need and that landlords and their families might wish to introduce.
I should give a big thumbs-up—we should probably say “bottoms up”—to two pubs. The Jolly Farmer in Reigate was able to overcome all obstacles to create a food emporium, which is available to the community as long as the pub is open. It competes with supermarkets on opening hours, and is doing fantastically well. It has tremendous local support and has focused a little attention on the supermarket competition in the area. The Plough in Wigglesworth, Skipton, confronted the problem of a closed post office by converting its old taproom into one, thus enhancing the role of the pub in that area.
Many hon. Members have made important speeches in this important debate about the value and future of the local pub. That is why I want to restrict my speech to just the far-distant corners of Britain, where the pub is more than just a convenient place to go for a pint, and where its closure is a great deal more than a minor inconvenience.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Benton, for allowing me to go to the main Chamber for the other debate, in which I have yet to make a contribution, though I hope to. I have made two interventions in this debate so far. One was to underline my new “Neil’s coalition brew”. I forgot to say that it will be available next week, for those who wish to sample it. The other point I made has been picked up by other speakers, and it was about localism and the importance that the localism Bill will have for local pubs. I would like to add to that point and say: let us encourage our councils to be bold and imaginative.
I have picked up a theme from one or two of the speeches: councils sometimes think that no is the best answer because it is the easiest. We want to see local councils setting out a vision—an agenda that matches people’s aspirations and, in this particular case, matches the desire for good local pubs. That requires the empowerment of local councils. Another important point about local councils is that they have to learn to enforce matters more rigorously and effectively. Enforcement is the other side of the coin to making decisions. That is a point that needs to be emphasised with regard to pubs.
There are too many restrictions. In my constituency, I have a problem with signage. Unbelievably, some pubs are having difficulty making their wares and services known, because the highways authority is not best pleased with signs on pavements and roads. That has to be handled in a more flexible way. Otherwise, we will drive past places without knowing that they are there or what they do. I make a plea to local authorities generally and to the Government in particular to encourage a sense of fair flexibility.
There are loads of pubs in my constituency; hundreds of them are very good. I have several favourites: The Woolpack in Slad—“Cider with Rosie” records activities in Slad valley—The Ram Inn in Woodchester, an excellent pub, and The Old Spot in Dursley. I could go on, and probably should, because there will be some who say, “Why did you not mention me?” I picked those three because they use their imaginations: they do things beyond what is normally expected of a pub. That is one characteristic of pubs that we need to encourage. If the Minister or hon. Members see a pub that is going further down the road of inventiveness, encourage it and allow that to happen. That would be useful to the industry.
Hon. Members have talked about supermarkets. We have to recognise the cartel problem, as regards both supermarket pricing and the ownership of pubs. We have to think carefully and astutely, with our minds on what business wants. We cannot stand in the way of business, but we must allow business to operate in an environment that is competitive and enabling. The Government need to go back and think carefully about cartels and the capacity that they have to disrupt a perfectly good business.
I want to finish there, because I think most of the other points have been well made. If people want to do something, they should not just say it is a good idea; let us do it. They have to follow it through. The Government have a great opportunity to do that.
Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)
I am delighted both to take part in this debate and that my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) secured the opportunity to hold it. As we can see, it has attracted great interest. I would like to put on record my support for the pub as an institution and to raise a number of specific concerns on behalf of landlords and proprietors in my constituency, which I hope the Minister will consider.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Mr Cameron) launched the big society at Battersea power station in April. I am not sure he thought that they would later be talking about it in the Eagle Ale House, a great community pub in my constituency, just a few miles away. I was honoured to be asked by Mr David Law, one of the landlords of the Eagle, to write an editorial for its summer beer and music festival programme, about the role of the pub in the big society. I was delighted to do so, as great pubs have always been at the heart of what is best about Britain, and we have heard about some fantastic examples in the debate. If the big society is partly about bringing people together to do things for themselves and others, the great British pub is already at the heart of the big society, as has been mentioned by other hon. Members.
The kind of festival put on by the team at the Eagle several times a year takes a lot of effort—the staff make that effort because they want to, not because they have to. We may call it the big society in action or we can call it something else, but it is fantastic, and it was a pleasure to support that beer festival—several times—as it is a pleasure to support so many of the excellent pubs and bars in my area.
However, the Eagle and other pubs are struggling under the combined weight of regulation and the tie. Several hon. Friends have covered that in great detail, so I will not repeat it. However, when that landlord offered me the prospect of writing for his festival programme, he also raised his grave concerns about the Brulines measuring equipment that was installed in his pub at the time, and how it was being used. Those concerns were explored by the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills when it reported on the matter earlier this year, and it expressed some concern. When I made enquiries of my local trading standards officers, it was clear from their reply that they also had concerns. The subject has been raised already in the debate, and I hope the Minister will comment on the trading standards protocols in this area.
Moving on to the new mandatory licensing code for alcohol retailers, passed as part of the Policing and Crime Act 2009, which has been applicable from 1 October this year, the specific requirement is
“to ensure that customers have access to free tap water so that they can space out their drinks and not get too intoxicated too quickly”.
The penalty for non-compliance with this condition of the code is a fine of up to £20,000 or six months’ imprisonment—or both. The initial response recommended to local authorities is a review at least by the licensing authority of the premises.
A freedom of information request earlier this year revealed that, although that was a Home Office measure, backed by the Department of Health, when the various Government Departments were consulting, it was opposed by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. Although the Department of Health backed the idea, the DCMS objected to the proposal to include free tap water, partly because it said it veered into the health objective territory and was therefore inappropriate for a licensing code. The DCMS argued in its response to the consultation:
“This is not proportionate—we need to see evidence that this is necessary, especially given that refusal could lead to loss of licence etc. Do publicans really often refuse to provide water to customers who have purchased and consumed any kind of drink or food? There are also laws to stop the sale of alcohols to drunks and purchase on behalf of them etc, so this measure, in effect, is unnecessary.”
DEFRA gave evidence along similar lines.
I raise this because there is an example in my constituency, and I am sure that there are others. I have received a communication from Sylvia Rushbrooke, who is the proprietaire of Le QuecumBar and Brasserie, which is London’s
“world premier Gypsy Swing venue”
and a noted Battersea venue. Le QuecumBar is an all-seated venue with live music every night and table service for drinks and food. The consequence of the relevant part of the licensing code and its draconian penalties is that people drinking free tap water can occupy a seat that would otherwise go to a paying customer. In a lot of other countries, even if customers want to order just water, they have to pay a cover charge.
I am aware from informal conversations that the licensed trade’s response to the consultation on free tap water was mixed. However, I cannot believe that hard-working proprietaires such as my constituent were meant to suffer a loss of trade as a result. It is a completely disproportionate response to a problem that it does little or nothing to solve. I quote some of the less critical parts of Ms Rushbrooke’s e-mail:
“This is just another nail in the coffin…we are being forced to give away an unlimited amount of a product that costs me money—water. Forcing a business to give away something that it pays for is immoral and costly. How many man hours were wasted thinking up this banal law? We have enough problems just surviving.”
I ask the Minister to consider that aspect. I fear that it is an unintended consequence, but it is a bad one.
I end by associating myself with the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley) on live music. With a fantastic team of people, I co-founded the Mill Hill music festival in north London in 1995, and we enjoyed huge co-operation from people in many local venues, including pub landlords. Of all the things that I have done, it is the one of which I am most proud. The festival was a great community activity, but such are the barriers to providing live music in pubs that I wonder if we could do it again today. It is wrong that we should not be able to do so. I congratulate my hon. Friends on securing this debate, and I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
This issue is of huge importance to my constituency. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart), I shall focus on rural pubs in isolated villages. In truth, my constituency has nothing but small villages. There is nothing else there.
The rural pub has played a huge part in my life—and, indeed, in the lives of all who have lived the same sort of life as me. I left school when I was 16. I joined my father on the family farm because he was ill, and I became an active member of the local young farmers club. It was incidental that the local pub was a place to drink; it was the social centre of my life. The young farmers club would sometimes meet there, or sometimes adjourn there after its meeting.
We probably did not go for the purpose of drinking to the Horse Shoe, the Lion or the Talbot—nor the Nag’s Head, which sadly closed but which I am delighted to say is on the point of reopening. We would probably have gone out four or five nights a week, and the pubs would have been full, with a huge amount of activity.
Many people do not appreciate the importance of darts and dominos in small villages. Almost everyone in our village plays darts or dominos. I hesitate to say that visiting the local pub so often was the ideal training for becoming a Member of Parliament, but there is an element of that. For example, there is the sheer pressure of playing dominos when the entire pub is looking on to see what you drop. Members have told me of the sheer awesomeness of making a maiden speech, but that is nothing compared with my experience of playing for the Wellington B team in the final of the Richards cup at Welshpool; it was standing room only, and a message was passed to the other room about the wrong domino that I dropped when we were two-all and I was No. 5. The point is that the rural pub is important to small villages.
Before becoming a Member of Parliament, I was involved in various activities, including being president of the Campaign for the Protection of Rural Wales—I say this because I want to put the rural pub in a slightly wider context—although I gave up that post when I became a Member, as I felt that there was a degree of conflict, as well a problem with time. The dominant issue when I became president a few years ago was onshore wind farms. Everyone thought that that was the only thing that we wanted to discuss. However, if anyone asked me what was the most important issue for the organisation during my years as president, I always said that it was rural services. That was far and away the most important matter in rural villages in Wales, and it was probably the same in rural England.
We know of the pressures on small schools, which continue to close in my constituency and in that of the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams); our education authorities are inextricably linked. Many of our local shops are closing. In the last year or two we have seen a significant number of post offices closing—and we consistently see small rural pubs closing.
In an intervention, I expressed my antipathy towards, and discomfort with, new laws and regulations, and that is an instinctive part of my politics. However, if we thought seriously about what we should do about the disappearance of local services, we could not say that we should not resort to regulation if appropriate. We have to take a common-sense position; we should act proportionately and be prepared to do things that we may instinctively dislike. If we are serious about retaining our local services, we will have to do so.
A number of concerns have been mentioned today, but in some ways it is about our attitude. Several of my hon. Friends spoke about the planning process. I can speak with some freedom, because many planning matters are devolved in my constituency, so I shall not be at variance with what the Minister might say. We need a different frame of mind. We need to be willing not always to work with a book of rules and laws and consider every application exactly in line with them. We need common sense. We see applications being turned down when everyone knows that it makes no sense to do so.
This is to do with the whole gamut of rural services, not just local pubs. I look forward to the Protection of Local Services (Planning) Bill, which will receive its Second Reading in the new year. It will be a really interesting Bill for all Members, as it will show what we are prepared to do to protect rural services. It will be a philosophical debate.
Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)
I am enjoying my hon. Friend’s speech. Many rural pubs are historic institutions, which have been around for centuries, often in listed buildings. They are hubs of the community.
We have spoken of the willingness not to resort automatically to legislation and regulation, but I wonder what my hon. Friend’s views are on using preservation orders for the historic buildings of country pubs if there is a change of use or if they close temporarily. The White Hart in the village of Bitton in my constituency has lain empty for two years, and Punch Taverns has sold off the freehold to many pubs. There is a risk that such pubs will be transformed and put to a completely different use. It may be against our instinct, but we should use legislation or regulation to preserve rural pubs that have been in use for centuries.
Glyn Davies
I sympathise with my hon. Friend’s proposal, but I cannot be precise in my opinion. We have to approach the Protection of Local Services (Planning) Bill and other legislation with common sense. It is certainly a valid view if the pub plays a significant part in the local community. Pubs sometimes close not because they are not viable but because they have been made unviable by people who see an opportunity to make more money out of them. That is what I meant by considering not only pure planning policies. I know of the difficulty of making certain that every decision is taken with a view to what an inspector might say. However, I believe that as parliamentarians we have to use common sense and flexibility in delivering what we want, and retaining public services in rural areas is incredibly important.
I want to touch on two other issues that matter to me. Attitude is important. I was a Member of the National Assembly for Wales when the smoking ban was passed. My libertarian instincts are such that I was one of only six Members who opposed the legislation. Although I do not want to criticise another parliamentary body, I must say that when we initiated a debate about wanting to retain a smoking room, or a place in which people could smoke without affecting anyone else, there was a comprehensive antipathy towards the whole idea. Although I felt that we were arguing on a rational basis—I thought that the case that we were making was bombproof—it was almost as if there was no willingness at all to compromise or to look at common sense, and it is that attitude that we need to change.
I should like to go into the supermarket issue, but I will not, because it has been covered so extensively. Diversification—or co-location or amalgamation of services—is a crucial way in which we can retain rural services. I can cite some superb examples from the area in which I live: two community shops have just opened and two pubs have taken on post office business. We have wonderful new community shops in Trefeglws and in Llanfechan; I officially opened one of them and went to the opening of the other fairly recently. We need to see such developments if we are to retain local services. Planning authorities and local authorities need to support such enterprises and give them every encouragement.
As I have earned my living through farming, I understand the problem with supermarkets selling goods at a lower price. It will be incredibly difficult to resolve that. Taxation is one way in which we can deal with it, but the levies that would be imposed would have to be very high indeed. The agriculture industry has an ombudsman who looks at the position and can say to the developer, “Oh, you are being unreasonable”. There are many good examples, but there are also many bad examples, and we must find a way in which to highlight them if we want to defend our local services.
Mr Joe Benton (in the Chair)
I remind hon. Members that I intend to start the wind-ups at 5 o’clock, and there are still a number of Members who want to speak. Please bear that in mind, and try to be as brief as possible.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
It is the first time that I have had the pleasure of speaking in a debate chaired by you, Mr Benton. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) on securing this debate and my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley) on opening it so well.
My hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands mentioned the fact that the building was the most important part of the pub industry. Although I agree that it is an important part, I submit that it is the customer who is extremely important, and that the lack of customers is the root cause of the problem in the pub industry. I am conscious of what you have said, Mr Benton, and I will try to share the time that is left before 5 o’clock and not take it all up myself. I will also try not to cover the points that have already been made by others.
I, too, must declare an interest. Although I am a member of CAMRA, I do not subscribe to everything that it campaigns for. My interest in the pub industry is purely as a consumer and not as an owner or manager of a public house.
The pub is the centre of the community in many television soaps—the Rover’s Return in “Coronation Street”, the Queen Vic in “EastEnders” and the Woolpack in “Emmerdale”—which has led many people to believe that it is fairly easy to run a pub. In my previous life as a solicitor, we were often called on to advise people who had a lease to run a pub that ran to dozens and dozens of pages. At least some of them came to us before they had signed the lease. One of the problems with the pub companies and the prospective lessees is the inequality of bargaining power. I submit that one way of dealing with the problem, without a great deal more red tape, is simply to require that a prospective lessee signs a document to say either that they have been properly advised about the nature of the document that they are about to sign or that they have taken a conscious decision to ignore the dangers of signing such a document. A 20-year lease can indeed be a benefit in that it gives security of tenure, but it can also be a burden when it comes to trying to sell the lease.
Why are pubs closing so quickly? I submit that it is because our way of life is changing, as are social trends. Some 30 pubs close every week, which is 1,500 a year. In the average constituency, a dozen pubs will close before the next election if it is in five years’ time. The problem is that we have had not too little red tape and regulation on our pub sector but too much. Very often that results in unintended consequences. Members will know that I introduced a ten-minute rule Bill on 13 October to give landlords the freedom to decide whether or not to have a separate room in which people could smoke provided that no food was being served and proper ventilation was in place. The Bill was defeated, but it is time for the Government to review the operation of the smoking ban.
The way forward must be diversification. We must ensure that pubs are used for more than just a few hours in the evening. We have gastro pubs, sports pubs, real ale pubs and music pubs, but we must use them in the day as well. We could use them as libraries, post offices or parcel collection points. They could also be ideal meeting places for groups. I am talking about pubs not just in rural areas but in the suburbs. Very often, when a pub closes, it is the last focus of a community—whether that be in a small rural village or the outskirts of a large town or city.
I am conscious that I have used up my six minutes, so I will close my remarks.
Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)
I, too, will be brief. Is there just one more Member to speak?
Rory Stewart
My apologies. I will limit myself.
This is an enormously interesting debate partly because—rocks hitting the building aside—it is a debate that we would not have had in the past. When Winston Churchill tried to talk about pubs, it was an incredibly controversial subject. When he was a Liberal, he ran his entire campaign attacking the Tory Government on the basis of the open hand at the Exchequer and the open door at the pub. In my own constituency, pubs were a taboo subject. This whole debate would have been like arguing for a larger salary for Jonathan Ross. It would have been a suicidal debate in this Parliament before the second world war.
So I am grateful that this debate is happening and I am grateful to the Members of Parliament who have spoken so eloquently about the glory of our pubs. For example, my hon. Friends the Members for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti) and for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) spoke in an extraordinary way about what a pub means to us. It is not just about the young farmers’ club—I have also cycled from pub to pub with the young farmers’ club—but about what pubs mean for the broader economy. In my own constituency of Penrith and The Border, pubs are important for tourism. For example, the George and Dragon at Garrigill is an absolutely essential pub for tourists on the coast-to-coast route and the Pennine way. People need to stop and eat. Pubs are essential to the broader economy.
I represent the most sparsely populated constituency in England. We have 280 pubs in the Eden district alone for 50,000 people—a density of pubs that is more than six times higher than the national average. That reflects the nature of our communities and the nature of our identity.
However, the problems that these pubs face are not problems that we can belittle or try to micro-manage from Parliament. Structural issues across the country have meant that, since 1997, 2,200 schools, 550 clinics and hospitals, and 330 police stations have all closed. The pubs are part of that broader movement of the stripping-out of rural services. These are structural issues. In France, they are fighting to protect the French bistro. France has lost 6,000 bistros. So we cannot imagine that these events are simply accidents of pricing or smoking policy; instead, they are a whole shift in culture.
The small solution that I want to propose in the limited time that I have available is community pubs. The community buy-out of the Crown at Hesket Newmarket was, of course, the first in the country. Cumbria is now repeating that fourfold. However, these are very difficult things to do. The problems that communities face in buying out pubs are the same problems that they face with everything: problems with financing; problems with organisation; problems with regulation, and problems with landlords who refuse to sell. As Members of Parliament, we have a unique role to play on behalf of communities, convincing landlords to sell and convincing communities to come together and find financing, through the Plunkett Foundation or the big society bank.
In the end, however, two things remain. The first is that communities know more, care more and can do more than people in Westminster, and the second is that we need to recognise that, with all our orthodox attachment to the free market, this sector is an example of where it may be necessary to have subsidy and regulation, to protect something that cannot be quantified simply—a value that spreads into the deepest recesses of English civilisation.
In a room such as this one—a wooden hall—one of the very first elements of law saw King Edgar the Peaceful introduce legislation on the licensing of alehouses in 965AD. It is with that point that I conclude—and with a great testimony to the introduction of music. Let us say, as Churchill and our other predecessors could never have said, “Let us sing, let us eat, let us drink, let us be merry, for tomorrow we die.”
Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)
Thank you, Mr Benton. I will obviously be brief.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) on securing this debate and the hon. Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley) on introducing it so thoroughly and persuasively, by framing the issues that face us. I should also declare myself as a member of the Campaign for Real Ale, as others have done before me.
Last Saturday, I had the honour of reopening the Masons Arms in Bodmin. It is a free house and a pub that I may owe a great deal to, given that it was my parents’ local before I was born. Perhaps, therefore, my very existence may be in some way connected with that pub.
The Masons Arms has gone through the journey that has been described by many other hon. Members today. It was a very successful free house; it was built up and extended, a restaurant was put in by the owners, and then it was bought up, with an offer that the owners could not really refuse from a pubco, which paid silly money for it. It was then run into the ground over a number of years by various tenants. The kitchen was stripped out and sold off. Then the pubco had to put it on the market for much less than half the amount that it had bought it for. It was a crazy model for the pubco and it was very destructive for the people for whom the pub was their local. However, I am delighted to say that a local businessman has bought it and a local couple have taken it on and reopened it. I am sure that it will be a great success.
Other Members have also mentioned the use of pubs for a range of purposes in their communities. I would like to mention the Tree Inn at Stratton, where a couple of years ago the local post office, which had been closed because the owner wanted to sell the building off and turn it into flats, was taken on by the couple who run the pub and it is very successful now in that location.
Given the limited time available to me, I will just say that I absolutely echo the points made by the hon. Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley) about live music. Live music is hugely significant and part of what we enjoy about our pubs. We need to protect live music in our pubs and make it far easier for pubs to encourage local musicians and so on to carry on.
I also echo what hon. Members have said about tax and duty. The Government may be able to look at those issues, to protect real ale in particular but also to protect community pubs in general.
The Minister who I know will do a fantastic job for the pubs industry, is also the planning Minister, as has already been mentioned. I would say to him that the issue of planning is crucial. The hon. Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes), who is no longer in her place, was concerned that imposing restrictions might lead to more boarded-up pubs, but I would argue the opposite. It is the hope that companies have that, at some point in the future, they might be able to turn pubs into flats that leads to pubs being boarded up. If it is absolutely clear that a pub will be used only as a community pub or that type of community facility, it will have to remain as a pub and whoever owns it will have to make preparations for passing it on to somebody who thinks that they can make a success of it.
I do not think that it is any accident that the pubcos are suffering, because their business model does not seem to have worked. What is a good-news story, however, is that many of the pubs that have been owned by pubcos and that have failed, for example in the town of Bodmin, have come back on to the market. In the last few years, I can point to three or four pubs in my area that have now been taken on by local people who are running them as free houses, and they seem to be functioning successfully, despite all the other factors that we have mentioned this afternoon.
So I think that there is a very positive future for the pub. Community pubs are crucial, doing a wonderful job for our communities in urban and rural settings, and I am certain that this coalition Government will do all that they can to ensure that those pubs have a very successful future.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Benton, for the opportunity to speak today. I will be as brief as possible. I know that you want to finish with Members’ contributions in a few minutes.
I simply want to draw the attention of Members and the Minister to an organisation based in my constituency, which has been referred to earlier. That organisation has been doing excellent work to help pubs to change, thrive and survive, and through that process underpin rural communities. The organisation is called Pub is the Hub. It is a national organisation. It does not just work in Harrogate; Harrogate just happens to be its home. It is almost 10 years old and it was initiated by His Royal Highness, the Prince of Wales, in his role as president of Business in the Community.
We have talked about how rural communities are facing major challenges. We have seen rural pubs disappear and pressure put on village schools and post offices. The key idea behind Pub is the Hub is to provide support for rural communities by maintaining the viability of the local pub at the heart of the community. The organisation does that by promoting diversification, as other Members have mentioned this afternoon. It especially promotes diversification into providing some of the important services that might not be provided otherwise. So it achieves two goals; it maintains important local services and it prevents the diminution of rural communities by underpinning the ancient tradition of the pub.
Pub is the Hub is a simple idea and, as with lots of simple ideas, it works. It has achieved 360 or so successful projects and it has been involved in a further 220 projects that have also been successful. Each project is different; each pub and each community is different, with different needs, and the services that each pub provides are different, too. The pubs involved provide everything from allotments to village shops, and from cooking school meals to providing a local post office, which Members have talked about. I know that the organisation is also talking to some county councillors about the provision of library facilities.
Twenty communities have taken over their local pub entirely and a further 12 communities are in the process of taking over their local pub. Across all the schemes, the economic impact is extremely positive. The average result is that four part-time jobs are created. However, the economic impact is a little broader than that, as the projects frequently have a positive effect on local suppliers.
Other people have mentioned case studies. I was going to highlight some case studies myself. However, for people who may not have much knowledge of the Pub is the Hub organisation, it has a very good website, which details the projects, as well as some of the costs and where the different sources of funding for projects have come from.
A pub is basically helped in two ways. First, the sharing of the overheads creates a more stable financial platform for the pub. Secondly, the pub is placed at the heart of the local community. Help for licence holders in supporting community services is about to be developed further. In January, a community champion programme will be launched in several parts of the country including my own, north Yorkshire. As pubs diversify, we must be careful that we do not penalise landlords with huge hikes in business rates. In rating assessments, we must be sensitive to the different types of activity taking place in one establishment.
Pub is the Hub is a voluntary, not-for-profit advisory organisation and its running costs are met by donations from breweries and pub companies. Its independence has helped it win involvement from different partners; it is clearly not run for its own financial gain but in order to secure the strengthening of rural communities, the provision of services and the future of pubs as viable businesses. Communities work together, as do the public and private sectors. It is an excellent example of the big society in action.
Mr Joe Benton (in the Chair)
Before we commence the winding-up speeches, I should inform hon. Members that the vote in the main Chamber will be held at 25 past 5.
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Benton. I congratulate the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland), who has a passion for the pub, on initiating this debate. I also congratulate the hon. Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley) on putting a powerful case for the pub. I agree strongly with the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) that one of the great strengths of Westminster Hall debates is that they enable us to focus on what matters to communities all over the country. Pubs are the centre of such communities. I congratulate the all-party save the pub group and the all-party group on beer.
This has been a fascinating debate, with esoteric contributions ranging from the Churchillian to tales of misspent youth, but all contributions have pointed in the same direction. They have recognised that responsibly run pubs are the hub of local communities all over Britain, provide a safe and sociable place for people to go, including with their family, and are the centre of local community activities. Pubs are a quintessentially British institution.
The Lad in the Lane in my constituency is one of the oldest pubs in Birmingham. Anyone who goes there on a Sunday morning will know how wonderful it is to see the pub packed with families out for a good day together. At The Bagot Arms, one can see workers from the local industrial estate, including from Jaguar Land Rover. The Yenton is one of the oldest pubs in the Erdington area. The New Inns, which takes me back to my misspent youth in Irish pubs in Kilburn, is a great pub for a great night out. I have long had association with other institutions related to the pub industry, including the Workers Beer Company.
Some 27% of adults go to a pub once a week. The economic impact of pubs and the pub industry is massive, contributing £28 billion to our economy. The benefits for the Exchequer are enormous: £1.14 for every pint drunk in a pub, compared with 55p per pint drunk at home. Therein lies a problem to which I will return later. The pub industry directly employs 540,000 people, and 380,000 are employed in associated trades. I know from my experience as deputy general secretary of Unite that the industry employs excellent people, from brewery workers to members of the National Association of Licensed House Managers, which became part of the old Transport and General Workers Union. Moreover, 90% of what is sold in pubs is produced in the UK. Pubs are good news for our economy as well as being the centre of our communities.
The hon. Member for Leeds North West has said on previous occasions that Britain’s biggest pastime is going to the pub. In terms of tourism, every year, more than 13 million people who come to our shores visit pubs. Our Government took some welcome steps—but. The welcome steps included enabling pubs to spread the payment of the inflation uprating of business rates over three years. The business payment support scheme run by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs benefited many pubs, and other support was given through low-cost loans and advice on energy efficiency that enabled many pubs to save on energy bills. But—let me be the first to acknowledge it—the simple reality is that since the 2008 Budget, 3,500 pubs have closed, and it is estimated that the pub industry will lose 112,000 jobs by 2012.
The hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) put it well when he said that all parties went into the 2010 general election recognising both how valuable pubs are and that those in the Government must act. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) spelled out three aspects, in particular, of a 12-point plan. The first was a £4 billion programme of business support, including help for communities to buy into local pubs. The second, crucially, was a strengthening of councils’ powers to intervene to allow communities a greater say, including about change of use, and a planning regime that facilitated and encouraged pubs to branch out, as has been discussed in this debate, into everything from selling stamps to becoming gift shops. The third was our support for the position—on which the hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley), with whom I have had the pleasure of working over the years, admirably led—taken by the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills, when it identified the problem of pub tenants with beer ties having to buy everything from pubcos and recommended greater freedom for tenants to buy local to support local economies. We were right to support the Select Committee’s message that if the industry did not clean up its act, legislation would be necessary.
Andrew Griffiths
The hon. Gentleman is describing all the things that the previous Government did to support the pub industry and the brewing trade. Does he think that increasing the duty on beer by 60% was a positive or negative thing to do?
Jack Dromey
I have acknowledged that the increase in duty contributed significantly—although it was not the only factor—to a trend that led to 3,500 pubs closing.
There is a range of threats ahead of us. If the economy has a rocky year in 2011, that is likely to exacerbate the trend of stay-at-home drinking. The combination of reduced consumer spending and ever-rising costs—including the VAT increase from January 2011—is bound to have an impact. So, too, is the continuing trend, of which we have seen evidence in the past 12 months, of pub prices rising slightly while prices in supermarkets fall. Below-cost selling is a growing threat.
To return to what the hon. Member for Burton rightly said, there is substantial common ground in this debate. We would like to work with the Government on a range of issues, which I shall identify. First, action is necessary on below-cost selling, and that includes having an adequate definition of what that is. It is true that Asda has taken welcome steps in the right direction. My experience of Asda is that it has acted in a socially responsible way on other issues as well, including on labour market standards in its supply chain. I welcome that. Having said that, I find it hard to see how to deal with this issue other than through Government acts. If the industry is incapable of dealing with the issue, the Government will have to act. The hon. Member for Penrith and The Borders was right when he said—he did not say it in this way, but I will put it in my own way—that he hoped that hon. Members would not get out a clove of garlic in one hand and a cross in the other at the very mention of regulation.
That was my first point. Secondly, will the Minister respond to the comments from the excellent CAMRA on the differential rate of duty imposed on on-sales and off-sales? Thirdly, given that the sale of food is becoming ever more important in pubs, does he recognise that the increase in VAT from January 2011 comes at a difficult time for the pub industry and will have an impact? Fourthly, I think that there is a case for the late-night levy, but only 2% of pubs and clubs have late-night licences. The big problem is the 44,000 hotels, the 1,700 supermarkets, and the sale of below-cost alcohol. Pubs often have to deal with the consequences when people arrive already having boozed. We are in favour of the late-night levy, but pubs are entitled to feel aggrieved about the impact that it sometimes has on them.
Fifthly, the planning regime is crucial in the ways that I have addressed, and I hope that the Government will act on that. Sixthly, on the crucial issue of beer ties, we would like to propose a pub summit that would bring representatives of the industry together. We should tell the current beneficiaries of beer ties that if they are unable to change an unacceptable practice that is having serious consequences for those who run pubs up and down the country, the Government will act.
There was one point made in the debate that I think should be disregarded. It was absolutely wrong to resurrect the issue of the smoking ban. I say that for numerous reasons, but in particular because, having represented the union members concerned, I knew people who contracted cancer and died as a result of working in licensed premises. I think that that debate should rightly remain closed as we move on. In conclusion, the Minister is a man who is giant in stature. I know that he has heard the contributions from all parties represented here today, and I hope that he will respond positively.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill)
It is a great pleasure to see you in the Chair once again, Mr Benton. I thank all the Members who participated in what has been a positive debate, particularly the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland), who has been a doughty champion of pubs, and my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley), who introduced the debate in an exceptionally well-informed and persuasive manner. The debate has been remarkable in two respects: it has been unusually well attended for a Westminster Hall debate; and those who participated clearly have direct and personal experience of the subject, which we do not always see in our debates.
I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) that I have had the pleasure of visiting some of the public houses in his constituency. I cannot pretend to have visited every public house mentioned in the debate, but I was pleased that the Eagle in Battersea was mentioned, as I used to visit it in my past life. It will not come as a complete surprise to Members to hear that it is quite possible that I will find myself in a public house in my constituency at some point over the weekend. Unlike my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands, I did not grow up in a pub, although my mother sometimes thought so.
We face a range of important issues, as the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) rightly said, and I welcome the constructive approach that he adopted. The Government are more than happy to work with all parties to find constructive ways forward to support what is a fundamental and great British institution. I hope to address most of the points that have been raised but apologise if I do not, as the time available is limited. I am sure that I will be able to write to Members and keep them informed about other matters. I will make no comment on my reaction to being asked to take over this job, other than to say that it was not a great struggle. As for the appropriateness or otherwise of my stature, they do say that good things come in small packages.
I have already met a number of representatives of the sector and am aware of the issues that have been raised, so I will address them first. The Department for Communities and Local Government is undertaking considerable work focusing on the ownership and running of community assets, and my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) and others referred to that. The pub is part of the big society in a very positive way, and I was delighted to hear about the work of the big society vanguard in Eden valley that he is involved in. Pubs are a key part of that. My hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) made the same point strongly, and it has resonances for many of us.
We recognise that pubs, like village shops and community centres, can be invaluable assets in helping to strengthen community relationships and encourage social cohesion, so we intend to address that in order to make progress. The localism Bill, which I promise will be introduced to the House very shortly—I hope that it will make good Christmas reading for all those concerned—will demonstrate our determination, because we want to provide people and community organisations with a fair chance to take over facilities and assets that are important to them. We will use the Bill as a vehicle to address that and certainly envisage that it could include local pubs, where appropriate. As the Bill has not been presented, I cannot go into the detail, but I can assure Members that we have taken on board the issue of community rights to acquire and to challenge, which link to that in relation to some other services.
My hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones) rightly referred to the work of Pub is the Hub in that context. I had the pleasure of meeting representatives of that organisation in a pub in Yorkshire not long after my appointment, and we are keeping in touch. That is another good example of how a number of services could be pulled together to keep both the pub and the village viable, so we are taking the appropriate steps to address that.
Planning will involve two pieces of work: we are determined to give local communities greater power through the localism Bill to shape their own visions for planning; and our proposals for the creation of neighbourhood plans will give local communities exactly the opportunities to say what sorts of developments are part of their vision, and under what circumstances. We will need to talk through the detail, but that raises some of the opportunities that have been mentioned and some of the impediments and perverse consequences of the existing bureaucratic system. That is the opportunity and the vehicle to deal with that.
Members will know that much of planning policy in this country is made through guidance, rather than primary legislation, and that remains the case. We intend to consult fully and widely on the whole national planning framework that we are providing, which can include the national steer. That will give context to the community plans that we will enable through appropriate legislation. The opportunity to do that arises exactly in that context. That also takes on board the need, which I am conscious of, to recognise diversification.
I have come across the example of the George and Dragon in Hudswell in Yorkshire, which was taken over by local people using community shares to raise funds. The Government remain committed to exploring the idea of using more social finance to leverage in the opportunity for communities to raise funds and to get them on to a level playing field, because access to finance is sometimes an impediment to such initiatives. I happen to know that one of the shareholders of the George and Dragon is my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, so that commitment runs right through the Government.
I am also conscious of the importance of diversification and creative thinking in that regard. There are many types of business activity that can be linked to pubs, as has been said, and we should take those on board.
I understand what was said about the impact of VAT. I will be honest. In a difficult economic situation, it is not possible to deal with all these issues. We want to give pubs not so much a hand-out as a level playing field across the piece for them to work on. For example, we have introduced a more generous small business rate relief scheme with effect from October, which will be a benefit to many pubs. We are also considering proposals to give councils power to levy discretionary business rate discounts, which could be used to support particular types of business or activity, and of course a pub could qualify under those circumstances.
Members will know, too, that we are committed to a comprehensive local government resource review of the whole picture of business rates. That will move quickly, starting in January and finishing in June next year. In a short period, there will be the localism Bill, that resource review and the consultation on the national planning framework.
The matter of the restrictive covenants placed on pubs was raised. I know that it is important, and it is also important to local authorities. In fact, three local authorities—Newcastle, Ryedale and Darlington—have requested Government action on the matter under the Sustainable Communities Act 2007. I am sure that hon. Members are aware that the Office of Fair Trading recently ruled that there was no competition issue in respect of covenants. However, it also made it clear that their use
“has the potential to harm consumers”.
It is, therefore, an issue that is worthy of greater investigation, and the Government will make a formal announcement on how we intend to do that along with our other 2007 Act responses later this month.
I am with the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington on the smoking ban. I know that some hon. Members have misgivings about it, but the fact is, as my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands rightly said, that this is not a debate that will focus on the most important priorities for public health. I respect the views of those concerned, but I think that there are other ways to make progress more swiftly and constructively. That is why we are working on things such as sustainable financing, the big society, and using funds in dormant bank accounts to support social enterprises. There was a reference to the Protection of Local Services (Planning) Bill, which is the private Member’s Bill promoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams). I have met him once already, and my officials will be meeting him again shortly. I understand what his Bill seeks to do, but, like my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), I think that the question is whether its underpinning objective of preventing unwanted demolitions and loss of buildings necessarily requires primary legislation. I therefore would like to look at the context of our broader planning reforms to see whether we can achieve a proportionate response, given that any planning legislation has impacts on proprietary rights which must be balanced in the equation. I believe that that would be the right vehicle to deal with that matter.
Other Departments are engaged as well. The Government are committed to introducing proposals to implement the ban on sales of alcohol at below cost. As hon. Members have observed, one of the keys is finding a workable measure by which we can capture that concept. We are working at present with retailers and other interested bodies, and we hope to make a formal announcement on the issue shortly.
The Treasury’s review of alcohol taxation, which aims to balance the need to tackle problem drinking without unfairly penalising the majority who are responsible drinkers, or ignoring the economic and social importance of pubs, is under way. In consequence, from autumn 2011, the Government intend to introduce a new additional duty on beers over 7.5%—the ones that can be more of a problem—but at the same time to reduce duty on beers at or below 2.8%.
Hon. Members will have seen the Home Office response to the consultation on rebalancing the Licensing Act 2003. We want people to enjoy a drink without that becoming the driver of the crime that many town centres, including my own in Bromley in the past, have seen when people abuse the enjoyment of alcohol. We must get the balance right.
The Department of Health recently published its White Paper, “Healthy Lives, Healthy People: Our strategy for public health in England”, which sets out a bold vision to make wellness central to all that we do. Clearly, I must read it at some point, if only from personal interest, as I have decided to lose some weight over Christmas.
This debate involves a raft of issues. I see on the monitor that the Division bell is ringing, although we cannot hear it. I will happily write to hon. Members to pick up further points. I hope that they can see from what I have said that there is a clear element of work being done. On the beer tie, we will follow the advice of the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, and review the position in June 2011. If a voluntary framework is not in place and workable, we will consider revisiting the issue.
Question put and agreed to.
Written Ministerial Statements
EU Competitiveness Council (Pre-Council Statement)
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)
My noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, (Baroness Wilcox), has today made the following statement:
“The EU Competitiveness Council will take place in Brussels on 10 December 2010. I shall represent the UK on industry and internal market issues and Andy Lebrecht, the UK’s Deputy Permanent Representative to the EU will represent the UK when I am not in attendance.
The main agenda items will include the proposed adoption of two sets of Council conclusions: one on the Single Market Act and one on the EU framework for betting and gambling. There will be an exchange of views on the EU patent to consider the way forward and possible enhanced co-operation process. There will also be a ministerial lunchtime discussion on the use of EU impact assessments in the EU institutions to support the development of EU legislation. A proposed regulation on EU state aid to support the closure of coal mines in the EU and the adoption of Council conclusions on EU industrial policy will also be discussed.
The following items will be taken under any other business:
Presidency information on transposition of EU directives into national law;
Commission information on implementation and mutual evaluation of the EU services directive;
Commission information on the proposed EU consumer rights directive;
Commission information on the EU consumer market scoreboard;
The Government’s main aims will be to:
To agree Council conclusions on the Single Market Act.
Support progress on the EU patent.
Endorse Council conclusions on an EU framework for gambling and betting in member states.
Support the importance of impact assessments in the EU institutions to support EU decision making.
Accept the proposal on EU state aid for coal mines closure.
Agree Council conclusions on EU industrial policy.”
Anti-Avoidance: Disguised Remuneration
(14 years ago)
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The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
Following the written ministerial statement on 6 December 2010, Official Report, column 1WS, and as announced at the June Budget, the Government are introducing legislation to tackle arrangements involving trusts or other vehicles used to reward employees which seek to avoid or defer the payment of income tax or National Insurance Contributions (NICs). The arrangements covered include the provision of a tax-advantaged alternative to saving beyond the annual and lifetime allowances available in a registered pension scheme. In many cases, these third-party arrangements allow an employee to enjoy the full benefit of a sum of money paid or assets provided while arguing that, because of the structure of the arrangements, there is no legal right to the money or assets. This argument is used to support a proposition that income tax and NICs are due (if at all) only on the use of the money or assets during the period of the employee’s employment and not on their full value.
The legislation inserts a new part 7A into the Income Tax (Earning and Pensions) Act 2003. The legislation ensures that where a third party makes provision for what is in substance a reward or recognition, or a loan, in connection with the employee’s current, former, or future employment, an income tax charge arises. Income tax is charged on the sum of money made available and on the higher of the cost or market value where an asset is used to deliver the reward or recognition, for example by transferring or otherwise making available an asset for the employee’s use and benefit as if the employee owned the asset. The amount concerned will count as a payment of employment income and the employer will be required to account for PAYE.
There will be protection for specified types of arrangements involving third parties—including registered pension schemes, approved employee share schemes and ordinary commercial transactions. The tax treatment of benefits packages which are available across the employer’s work force will also be unaffected by the measure, provided that the benefits are genuinely available to substantially all employees and cannot be accessed by only specially selected individuals.
The legislation will take effect from 6 April 2011 and apply to rewards, recognitions or loans which are earmarked for the benefit of an employee, or former or prospective employee, or otherwise made available on and after that date.
In addition, anti-forestalling provisions apply to the payment of sums (including loans) and the provision of readily convertible assets for the purposes of securing the payment of sums (including loans) where the sum is paid or the asset is provided between 9 December 2010 and 5 April 2011 where, if paid or provided on or after 6 April 2011, they would be caught by the legislation.
The anti-forestalling charge will arise on 6 April 2012 if sums paid have not been repaid, or readily convertible assets used to secure the payment of a sum have not been returned before that date, or not otherwise charged to tax under section 62 of ITEPA 2003. Any sum paid to which these anti-forestalling provisions apply, less a deduction for any amount which has been repaid, will count as employment income and the employer will be required to account for income tax under PAYE as if the amount concerned was a payment made on 6 April 2012. The value of any readily convertible asset provided (to which the anti-forestalling provisions apply) will also count as employment income, subject to the operation of PAYE by the employer as if the amount concerned was a payment made on 6 April 2012.
Regulations will be brought forward to apply National Insurance Contributions to the amounts charged to tax by this legislation.
Further details are contained in a draft explanatory note published on HMRC’s website today, together with the draft legislation.
Tax Policy Making and Draft Finance Bill 2011
(14 years ago)
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The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
At the June Budget, the Government set out their commitment to build a new approach to tax policy making—one founded on predictability, stability and simplicity—with consultation on policy and scrutiny of legislation as the cornerstones.
Today the Government are publishing their response to the consultation “Tax policy making: a new approach”, which sets a number of concrete improvements to the way in which tax policy is developed, communicated and legislated. We have already taken steps to improve predictability of the tax system, for example through the “Corporate Tax Road Map” published on 29 November 2009.
We are also making further progress towards our objectives with the publication, in draft, of the majority of 2011 Finance Bill clauses. This practice will become an established feature in the tax policy making cycle. Confirming the majority of intended tax changes at least three months ahead of publication of the Bill supports predictability in the tax system and provides an opportunity for draft legislation to be properly scrutinised.
The draft clauses will be open to consultation until 9 February. HMRC will host an open day for tax practitioners and tax managers on 24 January 2011. The Finance Bill will be published in full on 31 March 2011.
In response to feedback received through the consultation on tax policy making, we have also published a supporting document that provides an overview of the draft clauses published today. This sets out, for each draft clause, the proposed change, why we seek the change and what we expect the impacts to be.
Alongside the relevant draft clauses, the Government are also publishing:
a response to the consultation on furnished holiday lettings;
a response to the consultation on pensions annuitisation;
a response to the consultation on taxation of gaming machines
a response to the consultation on the simplification of corporate capital gains;
a response to consultation on modernisation of investment trust companies; and
two consultations relating to HMRC’s powers review.
Draft clauses, the Government’s response to the consultation on tax policy making and other documents published today can be found on HM Treasury and HM Revenue and Customs websites.
The Government have also tabled two separate written statements today in relation to the following clauses:
Disguised remuneration; and
Restricting pensions tax relief.
Unfunded Public Service Pension Contributions
(14 years ago)
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The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander)
The Government announced at the spending review their plans to take forward recommendations made by the Independent Public Service Pension Commission in its interim report. These plans included a commitment to undertake a review of the discount rate used to set contributions in the unfunded public service pension schemes.
Today the public consultation on the discount rate has been launched and the Government would welcome comments from all interested groups. The consultation document has been placed in the Libraries of both Houses, can be found at: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/consult_unfunded_pensions.htm and will end on 3 March.
Restricting Pensions Tax Relief
(14 years ago)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban)
On 14 October the Government announced that, from April 2011, the annual allowance for tax-privileged pension saving will be reduced from £255,000 to £50,000 and that from April 2012 the lifetime allowance will be reduced from £1.8 million to £1.5 million, to ensure that pensions tax relief remains fair and affordable. Representations were sought on some specific policy issues around reducing the lifetime allowance and the Government are today setting out their proposals for the operation of a new protection regime for individuals who may have already built up pension savings in the expectation that the lifetime allowance would remain at its current level of £1,800,000.
This new “fixed protection” will give anyone the opportunity to apply for a lifetime allowance of £1,800,000 instead of the reduced lifetime allowance of £1,500,000 on the condition that they no longer actively contribute to their pension or actively accrue pension benefits (that is, broadly excluding annual inflationary uprating). Individuals who are already entitled to primary protection and/or enhanced protection will also continue to receive their current levels of protection.
Draft clauses and draft guidance are being published today on the reduced lifetime allowance, including the operation of “fixed protection”. It is intended that from 6 April 2012 individuals will be considered “inactive” if they do not make or receive any further contributions to a registered defined contribution pension scheme, or build up additional annual pension over an allowable “relevant percentage” in a registered defined benefit or cash balance pension scheme. In order to prevent pension scheme rules being amended following this announcement so as to allow for artificially inflated annual increases to pensions rates the “relevant percentage” is defined as being the rate of increase specified in the scheme rules as at today’s date, 9 December 2010. If no rate is specified in the scheme rules, the “relevant percentage” will be the annual percentage increase in the consumer prices index for September in the previous tax year.
A revised set of draft clauses on the annual allowance, that were previously published on 14 October, have also been published today. This contains some additions and amendments, including details of the proposed exemption from the annual allowance in cases of severe ill health.
Localism Bill and Social Housing
The Minister for Housing and Local Government (Grant Shapps)
Following the spending review, I am today announcing further details of the new “affordable rent” model to be offered by private registered providers of social housing (hereafter referred to as housing associations) from April 2011.
We must make far better use of existing social housing—ensuring that we target support where it is needed most. The Government published a policy paper, “Local decisions: a fairer fixture for social housing”' on 22 November 2010. The localism Bill will take forward radical reforms, including flexible tenancies and changes to the way social housing is allocated. The Government have given a clear commitment to ensure that the existing tenancies and rents of secure and assured tenants of social landlords are protected and respected in these reforms.
The Bill will contain a wide-ranging package of reforms that will devolve greater power and freedoms to councils and neighbourhoods, establish powerful new rights for communities, revolutionise the planning system, and give communities control over housing decisions.
Given the huge pressures on public finances we must also ensure that we get more for the money we invest in new social homes. Alongside the Bill, the introduction of affordable rent will represent a significant first step towards giving social landlords much greater freedom to respond to local housing need.
The Homes and Communities Agency will publish a full framework document early next year that will form the basis for bids from providers who are interested in offering affordable rent.
Overview
Affordable rent is designed to:
maximise the delivery of new social housing by making the best possible use of constrained public subsidy and the existing social housing stock; and
provide an offer which is more diverse for the range of people accessing social housing, providing alternatives to traditional social rent.
Affordable rent falls within the definition of social housing in section 68 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 (and, in particular, the definition of low-cost rental accommodation in section 69 of that Act). Affordable rent properties will therefore be subject to regulation by the Tenant Services Authority—and its Homes and Communities Agency successor—where they are provided by a registered provider.
Affordable rent will offer housing associations the flexibility to convert vacant social rent properties to affordable rent at re-let, at a rent level of up to 80% of market rent. Housing associations will be able to convert vacant properties to affordable rent where they have reached an investment agreement with the Home and Communities Agency about how additional rental income will be reinvested in the supply of new affordable housing.
The Homes and Communities Agency has a capital budget of almost £4.5 billion over the spending review period to fund affordable housing supply, of which around £2 billion will support the delivery of new affordable rent homes (the total also includes £2.3 billion to meet existing commitments). While grant funding will primarily target affordable rent, there may be some scope for delivery of low cost home ownership as part of the agreements, where this is appropriate for local circumstances and helps to promote the overall supply of affordable homes. Ministers intend to make the payment of grant funding conditional on transparency.
Agreements could also involve approval in principle for future asset management plans that include social housing disposals, subject to the need for statutory consent and consultation with the relevant local authorities. The Tenant Services Authority will need to be engaged in the process to ensure that providers can continue to meet its regulatory standards, including on viability.
Allocation
We envisage that affordable rent properties will be allocated in the same way that social rent properties are now. The existing regulatory obligation on associations to co-operate with local authorities’ strategic housing function on the allocation of social rent properties will also apply to affordable rent. Similarly we envisage that existing lettings arrangements operated by local authorities and housing associations will continue to apply and that affordable rent properties will—where appropriate—be made available through choice-based lettings.
The statutory and regulatory framework for allocations provides scope for local flexibility. Local authorities and associations may wish to exercise this discretion in relation to affordable rent in order to meet local needs and priorities in the most effective way possible (for example, through the adoption of appropriate local lettings policies).
Rent
Affordable rent properties will not be subject to the rent restructuring policy that applies to social rented housing. This policy was originally outlined by the previous Government in March 2001 (in the “Guide to Social Rent Reforms”) and implemented by the then Housing Corporation (via the “Rent Influencing Regime Guidance” published by the Corporation in October 2001). The previous Government’s direction to the Tenant Services Authority issued in November 2009 required the regulator to set a standard on rent that reflected the same policy.
In particular, the direction required the Tenant Services Authority, when setting a standard on rents, to have regard to the social rent guidance. The direction defined the term “social rent guidance” as the guide to social rent reforms published in March2001 “and any guidance issued by the Department, or its successors, in relation to that document”. This statement should be treated as guidance issued in relation to the March 2001 document. The direction also obliged the Tenant Services Authority to set a rent standard with a view to achieving, so far as possible, the target rent policy set out in the rent influencing regime guidance.
This statement clarifies that affordable rent properties are not covered by the Government’s rent restructuring policy. Note that a property is only considered to be “affordable rent” for these purposes where it is linked to an agreement with the Homes and Communities Agency on investment.
Housing associations will be able to let an affordable rent property (whether a converted void or new build) at up to 80% of market rent for an equivalent property for that size and location. The association’s calculation of the market rent would need to be based on a residential lettings estimate for a property of the appropriate size, condition and area. Valuations should be in accordance with a RICS recognised method.
The maximum annual rent increase on an affordable rent property will be RPI + 0.5%. However associations will be required to rebase the rent on each occasion that a new tenancy agreement is issued (or renewed) for an affordable rent property. This requirement, which overrides the RPI + 0.5% limit, is designed to ensure that the rent set at the beginning of each new tenancy is no higher than 80% of the market rent.
Tenure
The Government have already published radical proposals to give greater flexibility to both local authority and housing association landlords over the types of tenure they can offer to social housing tenants1. In particular, the Government believe that it is no longer right to require that every social tenancy should be for life—regardless of the household’s particular circumstances. The aim is to create a more flexible system so that scarce public resource can be focused on those who need it most.
The affordable rent model is the first step towards delivering these wider reforms. Housing associations will be able to offer affordable rent on fixed-term tenancies, but they will also retain the option to offer lifetime tenancies should they wish to do so. We would expect associations to use this additional flexibility to ensure that help and support are focused on those who need it most when they need it most, and to build strong and cohesive communities. They will need to meet the existing regulatory requirement to publish clear and accessible policies which outline their approach to tenancy management.
The Government are currently consulting on their wider tenure reform proposals for social housing, including on the rights and protections that should be available to tenants as part of these changes. These proposals include a minimum fixed-term of two years for all general needs social tenancies, the right to acquire for tenants with a fixed-term tenancy of two years or more (subject to the existing conditions and exceptions) and changes to succession rights2. Some of the proposals will require primary legislation and we intend to deliver these through the localism Bill. The final proposals, once implemented (either by legislation or regulation), will apply to fixed-term tenancies that are subsequently issued for both affordable rent and traditional social rent.
However we envisage that the first affordable rent properties will be let during 2011-12, before the wider tenure reform proposals are due to come on stream. We have therefore considered which of the proposed conditions should be attached to the affordable rent model from the start. It should be noted that the proposals that require primary legislation (for example, on the right to acquire) cannot be brought forward in this way.
We wish to apply the following (non-statutory) conditions to the affordable rent model:
a minimum fixed term of two years for affordable rent tenancies; and
where a landlord decides, in line with its published policy, not to reissue an affordable rent tenancy at the end of the fixed-term, the landlord should provide advice and assistance to help the tenant find suitable alternative accommodation. Landlords and tenants may wish to consider a range of “end of tenancy” options depending on the needs of the household concerned. This could include selling the property to the tenant via conversion to shared ownership (subject to consent).
1“Local Decisions: a fairer future for social housing” (22 November 2010).
2Full details of these proposals are set out in section 2 of the “Local Decisions” document
War Pensions: Uprating 2011
(14 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
The new rates of war pensions and allowances proposed from April 2011 are set out in the following tables. The annual uprating of war pensions and allowances for 2011 will take place from the week beginning 11 April 2011. Rates for 2011 are increasing by 3.1% in line with the Consumer Price Index as outlined in the Budget.
Rates | Rates | |
|---|---|---|
(Weekly rates unless otherwise shown) | 2010 | 2011 |
WAR PENSIONS | ||
Disablement Pension (100% rates) | ||
officer (£ per annum) | 8072.00 | 8323.00 |
other ranks (weekly amount) | 154.70 | 159.50 |
Age allowances payable from age 65 | ||
40%-50% | 10.40 | 10.70 |
over 50% but not over 70% | 15.90 | 16.40 |
over 70% but not over 90% | 22.65 | 23.35 |
over 90% | 31.80 | 32.80 |
Disablement gratuity (one-off payment) | ||
specified minor injury (min.) | 985.00 | 1016.00 |
specified minor injury (max.) | 7356.00 | 7584.00 |
1-5% gratuity | 2459.00 | 2535.00 |
6-14% gratuity | 5468.00 | 5638.00 |
15-19% gratuity | 9564.00 | 9860.00 |
SUPPLEMENTARY ALLOWANCES | ||
Unemployability allowance | ||
Personal | 95.60 | 98.55 |
Adult dependency increase | 53.10 | 54.75 |
Increase for first child | 12.35 | 12.75 |
increase for subsequent children | 14.50 | 14.95 |
Invalidity allowance | ||
higher rate | 18.95 | 19.55 |
middle rate | 12.20 | 12.60 |
lower rate | 6.10 | 6.30 |
Constant attendance allowance | ||
exceptional rate | 116.80 | 120.40 |
intermediate rate | 87.60 | 90.30 |
Full-day rate | 58.40 | 60.20 |
Part-day rate | 29.20 | 30.10 |
Comforts allowance | ||
higher rate | 25.10 | 25.90 |
lower rate | 12.55 | 12.95 |
Mobility supplement | 55.65 | 57.40 |
Allowance for lowered standard of occupation (maximum) | 58.32 | 60.12 |
Therapeutic earnings limit (annual rate) | 4836.00 | 4940.00 |
Exceptionally severe disablement allowance | 58.40 | 60.20 |
Severe disablement occupational allowance | 29.20 | 30.10 |
Clothing allowance (£ per annum) | 199.00 | 205.00 |
Education allowance (£ per annum) (max) | 120.00 | 120.00 |
WIDOW(ER)S BENEFITS | ||
Widow(er)s’-other ranks (basic with children) (weekly amount) | 117.30 | 120.95 |
Widow(er)-Officer (basic with children) (£ per annum) | 6239.00 | 6432.00 |
Childless widow(er)s’ u-40 (other ranks) (weekly amount | 28.10 | 28.97 |
Childless widow(er)s’ u-40 (Officer highest rate both wars) (£ per annum) | 2167.00 | 2234.00 |
Supplementary Pension | 78.48 | 80.91 |
Age allowance | ||
(a) age 65 to 69 | 13.40 | 13.80 |
(b) age 70 to 79 | 25.70 | 26.50 |
(c) age 80 and over | 38.10 | 39.30 |
Children’s allowance | ||
Increase for first child | 18.40 | 18.95 |
Increase for subsequent children | 20.60 | 21.25 |
Orphan’s pension | ||
Increase for first child | 21.00 | 21.65 |
Increase for subsequent children | 23.05 | 23.75 |
Unmarried dependant living as spouse (max) | 114.95 | 118.60 |
Rent allowance (maximum) | 44.25 | 45.60 |
Adult orphan’s pension (maximum) | 90.10 | 92.90 |
Foreign Affairs Council and General Affairs Council
(14 years ago)
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The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)
The Foreign Affairs Council and General Affairs Council will meet in Brussels on 13 and 14 December. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will attend the Foreign Affairs Council. I will attend the General Affairs Council.
foreign affairs council (fac)
Western Balkans
We expect Ministers to focus on Bosnia and Herzegovina (BiH), and in particular the need for the new Government to focus on the EU and wider reform agenda, including constitutional reforms. There may be some discussion of the EU institutional presence in BiH; we remain committed to the completion of the “5+2” conditionality for the transition of the Office of the High Representative to an EU-only presence.
Additionally, the noble Baroness Ashton is likely to update Ministers on preparations for the EU-facilitated Belgrade/Pristina dialogue. We hope this begins as soon as possible. There may be an initial exchange of views on the outcomes of the 12 December parliamentary elections in Kosovo.
Sudan
We expect conclusions to be adopted on preparations ahead of the referendum on self-determination for southern Sudan in January 2011, as part of the final stages of the comprehensive peace agreement. We believe that these conclusions should emphasise the importance of focused, sustained efforts to ensure a timely, peaceful and credible referendum. We also expect Ministers to discuss humanitarian contingency planning for the referendum, and to underline our continuing collective long-term support for northern and southern Sudan, regardless of the referendum outcome.
Middle East Peace Process (MEPP)
Ministers will discuss latest developments in the region. We expect conclusions emphasising the EU’s support for US efforts, in conjunction with other members of the Quartet. Ministers may also discuss how best to improve access to Gaza.
Somalia/Horn of Africa
Ministers are expected to assess the effectiveness of EU efforts in the Horn of Africa, and in particular support to the peace process in Somalia.
We continue to support EU efforts to train the Somali security forces through the EU training mission Somalia. The existence of pay, command and control and infrastructure for returning troops is vital to the success of the mission. We encourage ongoing EU support to the African Union mission to Somalia, which provides the secure space within which political reconciliation can take place. On the political track, debate is likely to focus on support to Somalia’s regions: Puntland and Somaliland. We support EU work in these areas, building on a central tenet of the UK strategy: support to local and regional areas of stability.
Conclusions are likely to reaffirm the importance of work on Somalia, a UK priority in Africa; raise Somalia’s profile on the EU agenda; and task further work on scenarios for how to end the current transitional period and what should succeed it post-August 2011.
Afghanistan
We expect the noble Baroness Ashton to consider how to increase the effectiveness of EU assistance in Afghanistan, in the context of the EU action plan for Afghanistan. The discussion is expected to follow a briefing by the European Union Special Representatives (EUSR) Ambassador Usackas for Development Ministers at the 9 December FAC (on which my right hon. Friend the Development Secretary has already written to the House).
Strategic Partners
This discussion is likely to take place over dinner on 13 December. The noble Baroness Ashton will solicit views from Partners how to develop on the EU’s relationship with Russia, China and the US. We are keen for the noble Baroness Ashton to continue her work on these partnerships, devising a set of concrete objectives for the EU’s external action. We believe that trade is a central component of these relationships.
Moldova
Discussion will focus on the outcome of the 28 November parliamentary elections. These were largely conducted to internationally accepted standards. Despite the encouraging conduct of the elections, and a good turnout, neither the outgoing coalition Government nor any single party won enough seats to form a Government or to elect a permanent president. The prospect of further stalemate and political instability remains very real. We fully support the statement made by the noble Baroness Ashton and the Enlargement Commissioner, Stefan Füle (see link below).
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_ data/docs/pressdata/EN/foraff/11 8093.pdf
Iran
The noble Baroness Ashton is likely to report on the recent E3+3 talks with Iran in Geneva. Talks will continue in January 2011. The noble Baroness Ashton released a statement on behalf of the E3+3 on 7 December (see link below)
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_Data/docs/pressdata/EN/foraff/l18263.pdf
Priorities for 2011
The noble Baroness Ashton will solicit views on priorities for her and the External Action Service in 2011.
AOB
A number of smaller issues are on the agenda under AOB. Ministers will hear reports back from the OSCE Summit in Astana, which I attended along with my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister. Some Partners have requested a general discussion on the plight of religious minorities in Iraq. We expect Ministers to agree (without discussion) short conclusions on the Democratic Republic of Congo, focusing on the forthcoming elections.
general affairs council (gac)
Enlargement
The presidency will chair a discussion on draft European Council Conclusions, taking stock of progress on EU enlargement and on the stabilisation and association process in the Western Balkans. These will be informed by the European Commission’s Communication of 9 November setting out an enlargement strategy and progress reports for candidates and potential candidates. I submitted this communication to Parliament on 30 November under an explanatory memorandum.
As I set out in that memorandum, the Government believe the Commission’s communication to be a broadly fair and balanced assessment. We will seek conclusions reconfirming support for EU enlargement and recognition that the accession process gives strong encouragement to political and economic reform in the enlargement countries and reinforces peace, democracy and stability in Europe. We agree with the Commission’s view that progress towards the EU should take place at the rate of reform of the (potential) candidate country and that key challenges remain for most enlargement countries, including on the rule of law, and the fight against corruption and organised crime. We further support the Commission’s view that bilateral disputes should not be allowed to hold up the accession process.
On individual countries, we will welcome progress made this year by Turkey with the recent constitutional reforms, and support the Commission’s recognition of Turkey’s role in the region. We will expect conclusions to indicate the EU’s readiness to intensify its foreign policy dialogue with Turkey. However, we share the Council’s disappointment that Turkey has not yet fulfilled its obligation to open its ports to trade with Cyprus under the additional protocol to the association agreement and agree that further efforts are needed to accelerate the pace of Turkey’s accession negotiations.
We support the Commission’s view that full co-operation with the International Criminal Tribunal remains a requirement for Croatia’s progress throughout the accession process, and that Iceland will need to address existing obligation, such as those identified by the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) Surveillance Authority (ESA) under the European Economic Area (EEA) agreement.
We will seek conclusions reaffirming the European perspective of the whole Western Balkans region. We support the European Commission’s recommendation to grant candidate status to Montenegro and to open accession negotiations with Macedonia (FYROM). We will seek balanced conclusions consistent with Kosovo’s European perspective. The Government are concerned about the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and will seek conclusions urging its political leaders to put the reform agenda at the heart of their new government programmes.
Preparations for the December and February European Councils
The presidency has invited the President of the Council, Van Rompuy, to discuss preparations for the European Council of 16 and17 December. The Council agenda covers Economic Governance—the permanent crisis mechanism and pension reform, the EU budget and External Relations (Strategic Partnerships). The discussion on 14 December is likely to focus on economic and eurozone issues. The Prime Minister will report to Parliament on the Council in the normal way.
There will also be a short information point on the February European Council. No agenda has yet been issued, but we expect energy policy and innovation to feature.
Disaster Response
There is likely to be a further discussion of the Commission’s ideas for disaster response, following last month’s presentation by the Commissioner for International Co-operation, Humanitarian Aid and Crisis Response (Georgieva). The Commission’s proposals—with which we are broadly content—concern the response to disasters inside and outside the EU, considering both civil protection and humanitarian assistance, and seeking cost-effectiveness through use of common assets.
Cohesion Funds
The General Affairs Council will have a preliminary discussion of the Commission’s Report on Structural Cohesion Funds
http://ec.europa.eu./regional_policy/sources/docoffic/official/repor_en.htm
following the Liege informal Ministerial of 22 and 23 November. Baroness Wilcox represented the UK. The Commission will end its EU-wide consultations on the proposals on 31 January 2011.
Europe 2020
If there is time, we expect the presidency to give a short update on Europe 2020, the EU’s economic growth strategy.
Turks and Caicos Islands
(14 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Henry Bellingham)
My right hon. Friend the Minister of State for International Development and I wish to update the House about the situation in the Turks and Caicos Islands, a British overseas territory.
It has become clear to this Government since they assumed office that there is a serious and deteriorating problem in the Turks and Caicos Islands.
In August 2009, the previous Government suspended the Turks and Caicos Islands ministerial Government for an initial period of up to two years. A special investigation and prosecution team was appointed to undertake a criminal investigation into matters identified by Sir Robin Auld’s report, which concluded that there was a high probability of systemic corruption in the former Turks and Caicos Islands Government. The team is pursuing its work as rigorously and as quickly as possible.
On 1 July 2010, as an urgent initial response to the unfolding financial plight of the Turks and Caicos Islands Government, the Secretary of State for International Development stated that his Department was having to step in to design and put in place a package of financial support with commercial lenders, as well as providing an immediate short-term loan to help meet unavoidable commitments including staff salaries for the islands’ police, health and education services.
It has become clear to UK Ministers that the fiscal picture in the Turks and Caicos Islands represents an unacceptable collapse in the fiscal governance of the territory, which needs urgently to be addressed. While funding the immediate unavoidable costs of the Turks and Caicos Islands Government, the Department for International Development has provided a chief financial officer to the Turks and Caicos Islands Government, to meet the urgent task of addressing its structural deficit and putting it on a course towards a sustainable fiscal surplus in the financial year 2012-13. In addition, the Department is reaching the final stages of putting in place a medium-term financial package.
In September 2010, I announced in the Turks and Caicos Islands that the UK Government did not want to postpone elections any longer than necessary, but that they could not be held in 2011. We intend to submit to the 15 December meeting of the Privy Council an Order in Council continuing in force the Turks and Caicos Islands Constitution (Interim Amendment) Order 2009 beyond 14 August 2011.
I undertook to set out milestones that would need to be met before elections could once again take place. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for International Development currently jointly assess these milestones to be as follows:
implementation of a new Turks and Caicos Islands constitution order, in support of recommendations of the Commission of Inquiry, which underpins good governance and sound public financial management;
introduction of a number of new ordinances, including those making provision for: (i) the electoral process and regulation of political parties; (ii) integrity and accountability in public life; (iii) public financial management;
establishment of robust and transparent public financial management processes to provide a stable economic environment and a strengthening of the Turks and Caicos Islands Government’s capacity to manage their public finances;
implementation of budget measures to put the Turks and Caicos Islands Government on track to achieve a fiscal surplus in the financial year ending March 2013;
implementation of a transparent and fair process for acquisition of belongership;
significant progress with the civil and criminal processes recommended by the Commission of Inquiry, and implementation of measures to enable these to continue unimpeded;
implementation of a new Crown land policy;
substantial progress in the reform of the public service.
Reaching these milestones will require time, care and hard work by the UK and the Turks and Caicos Islands Government, and particularly by the Turks and Caicos Islands public sector. It will need the encouragement of the community. There will be public consultation on a number of issues across Turks and Caicos Islands and, we hope, the engagement of the islands political parties. The milestones we have identified do not include everything that will have to be done before elections take place. In general the UK Government will have to be satisfied that the necessary reforms have been put in place to address the issues raised by the Commission of Inquiry, to prevent such maladministration being repeated, and to engender the confidence of the international community. It is our considered view at this stage, that the milestones listed above are the minimum preconditions before the Turks and Caicos Islands can return to elected government.
The UK Government have helped protect the Turks and Caicos Islands Government finances from complete collapse and intend to provide continuing financial support. However it is important that the islands make good use of this period of UK financial support to address the deep crisis in public finance and to achieve a fiscal surplus. The UK Government currently intend to retain sufficient control over public finances following elections in order to ensure that the Turks and Caicos Islands Government emerges from its financial crisis as soon as possible, and that the temporary package of UK support is no longer needed.
We hope achievement of these milestones will also help any future Turks and Caicos Islands Government to continue to embed good governance, with full respect for the rule of law and human rights, and zero tolerance of corruption.
Achieving these milestones will be a great challenge. As we now see things, the UK Government will only be able to set a date for the elections when the milestones have been reached. We hope that this will happen in time for elections to take place in 2012.
UK's Relationship with the Commonwealth
(14 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
Her Majesty’s Government have undertaken to strengthen the United Kingdom’s relationship with the Commonwealth and to ensure that the United Kingdom is closely involved in plans to reinvigorate this unique organisation.
The purpose of this statement is to inform the House about the Government’s reasons and objectives for doing this.
The Commonwealth today is as important to the United Kingdom as ever. The coalition agreement sets out a vision
“to strengthen the Commonwealth as a focus for promoting democratic values and development.”
The Foreign and Commonwealth Office will lead a co-ordinated, cross-Whitehall approach to help the Commonwealth achieve its potential and which underlines the United Kingdom’s commitment to this unique global organisation.
Our relationship with the Commonwealth has been primarily based on its history, values and common bonds. But the modem Commonwealth, including countries that were never British colonies, has been transformed. Today’s Commonwealth bridges all the continents, embraces almost 2 billion people, and represents all of the world’s major faiths. Its membership includes many of the fastest-growing and increasingly technologically advanced economies in the world. These are the great markets of today and tomorrow. Equally important is the forum it provides for numerous smaller nations which may feel that their voice is lost in the wider United Nations structure and who find the more informal Commonwealth setting an ideal place to be heard.
The Commonwealth of the 21st century should stand for democracy, development, and human rights, and act as a recognised force for good on the issues of our times. It could also be used much more effectively to further the United Kingdom’s foreign policy priorities and worldwide economic interests. The United Kingdom is already at the heart of this ready-made network, which fits perfectly into the new global environment. In the words of the Head of the Commonwealth, Her Majesty the Queen, the Commonwealth is indeed “the face of the future”. It is a future in which the United Kingdom will play a full part.
To achieve this, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office will work closely with Whitehall partners to:
Define and develop ways in which the modern Commonwealth can add value to the delivery of United Kingdom policy goals and act as a global soft power network.
Use the Commonwealth to develop trade and investment opportunities for the United Kingdom and to promote intra-Commonwealth trade.
Support Commonwealth development programmes and bilateral assistance in Commonwealth countries.
Reform, strengthen and renew the Commonwealth structures and purposes through the Eminent Persons Group, the Commonwealth ministerial action group reform process, and in concert with key partners ahead of the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in 2011.
Focus Commonwealth activity where it has strengths and conclude activity where others are better placed and better resourced.
Strengthen the Commonwealth through expanded membership and partner and observer agreements.
Work with the Commonwealth secretariat better to demonstrate the benefits of membership to the public in Commonwealth nations
Use the Commonwealth in other international institutions (e.g. the United Nations, the Group of 20) where we can develop common foreign policy aims.
Connect with the “internal Commonwealth”, the many United Kingdom communities with close ties to Commonwealth countries, to the benefit of social cohesion within British society.
Justice and Home Affairs (Post-Council Statement)
(14 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
The Justice and Home Affairs Council was held on 2 and 3 December in Brussels. My right hon. and learned Friend, the Secretary of State for Justice and I attended on behalf of the United Kingdom. The following issues were discussed at the Council:
The Council began with Mixed Committee with Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland (non-EU Schengen States). The Commission provided an update on the progress of the second generation of the Schengen Information System (SIS II) focusing on agreeing the additional financial facility for member states to cover national implementation of the system.
The Commission then reported on the implementation of the Council conclusions on 29 measures for reinforcing the protection of the external borders and combating illegal immigration. Internal EU progress included the Frontex Rapid Border Intervention team (RABIT) at the Greece-Turkey border, the Asylum Support Office and the Frontex operational office in Piraeus. Externally, the EU had contributed to a regional protection programme in the Horn of Africa, concluded readmission agreements with Georgia and Pakistan, signed a mobility partnership with Georgia, and opened a migration dialogue with Libya. The Commission will report on the development of the European Surveillance System (EUROSUR) in spring 2011. The Commission highlighted the need by member states to adopt the new Frontex regulation; conclude further working arrangements between Frontex and third countries; develop EUROSUR and close ongoing readmission negotiations.
Under Mixed Committee AOB, Switzerland reported the results of last week’s referendum in which a majority of the population voted in favour of automatically deporting foreign national criminals.
Following Mixed Committee the main Council began with a debate on asylum and migration during which the presidency noted recent achievements from political agreement on the long-term residents’ directive to the first meeting of the Asylum Support Office and progress on the Greece action plan. The presidency welcomed the four incoming presidencies’ agreement to deliver the asylum package by 2012 and emphasised that all member states must meet their obligations under EU law. The Government welcomed the opportunity to discuss some of the most pressing challenges member states faced, and set out domestic plans to bring levels of non-EU migration down to sustainable levels. The Government were proud to share the EU’s strong tradition of protecting genuine refugees but noted there were clear weaknesses in the system. The Government stated that a focus on fast, efficient decision making; reluctance to see legislation as the solution; and emphasis on practical co-operation was needed. Delays in the negotiations so far demonstrated member states’ reluctance to compromise on proposals which would threaten their individual asylum systems. Instead, practical steps should be taken to provide quicker protection to those in need, and to support the safe return of those with no grounds to stay. The first meeting of the European Asylum Support Office was an important milestone. But the situation in Greece was the most pressing challenge and here the Government were pleased to see contributions to the national action plan were coming together; but a sustainable improvement would take years of commitment and substantial resources. More needed to be done. The EU had to take proactive action to stop new illegal immigration threats before they created this pressure. Commissioner Malmstrom updated Council on progress so far under the Greek action plan, set out next steps and urged Greece to take ownership of the plan.
The presidency updated Council on the results of its legal migration conference, which focused on the challenges of an older EU population, declining labour force, and weakening cultural identity in the face of immigration.
Over a private lunch Interior Ministers had an exchange of views on alternatives to the detention of children and agreed on the split-seat solution of the location of the IT Agency with infrastructure remaining in Strasbourg and its management in Tallinn.
After lunch the Council discussed air cargo security. Following the recent discovery of explosive devices in air cargo, a high-level group produced a report on strengthening air cargo security for both Council meetings on 2 December (Transport and Justice and Home Affairs). The presidency presented this report, which sets out ways to strengthen the security regime around air cargo coming into the EU. The Government broadly welcomed the report and the associated action plan. The presidency concluded orally that the Council had a “positive appreciation” of the report, and asked the Commission and member states to ensure a speedy implementation of the action plan. The Commission was asked to report back to the Council on progress made. A parallel discussion took place in the Transport Council.
The EU counter terrorism co-ordinator presented his regular assessment of progress against the EU’s CT action plan and noted in particular the importance of coherence between the internal and external dimension of CT. The Government broadly welcomed the report supporting the idea of a discussion of external CT in the JHA Council with the EU’s High Representative. However, the Government expressed concerns about plans to use article 75 of the treaty on the functioning of the EU as the legal base for an internal terrorist sanctions regime.
Next the Council agreed the three negotiating mandates to authorise the start of negotiations for agreements between the EU and the United States, Canada, and Australia for the transfer and use of passenger name records (PNR) to prevent and combat terrorism and other forms of serious cross-border crime. The Government welcomed the mandates but argued that we should also be collecting data on intra-EU flights. This would give the EU the best chance of avoiding future terrorist incidents.
The Council agreed the action plan on combating heavy arms trafficking, which recommends an integrated approach to combating arms trafficking and more particularly heavy fire arms, and adopted the conclusions on itinerant gangs which seek to define the problem of itinerant crime groups and agree an administrative approach to tackle the problem, including increased cross-border co-operation. The Council also agreed Council conclusions on preventing and combating identity-related crimes and on identity management with amendments which had been sought by the UK. The conclusions set out instructions for having a robust structure of identity management to combat the threat posed by identity-related crime.
Commissioner Malmström presented the communication on the EU Internal Security Communication to Council. The communication looks to translate the Council’s EU internal security strategy into action points.
Next the presidency updated the Council on the outcomes of and proposed follow-up to the EU-Russia Permanent Partnership Council (PPC) (freedom, security and justice) (18-19 November), and the Western Balkans ministerial forum (23-24 November). The presidency stated that there was an agreement to work on a stage-by-stage basis, to ensure that all commitments for data protection were met, as well as the fight against drugs, extradition and aid. On the Western Balkans, the presidency felt that there was mixed progress, with some countries doing much better than others; generally the legislation was good, but implementation was taking longer than hoped.
Under AOB Commissioner Georgieva (Humanitarian Aid) presented the recent Commission communication on civil protection, which was broadly welcomed by member states.
On the justice day, the presidency informed the Council that agreement on the text of the EU directive on human trafficking had been reached with the European Parliament. Commissioner Malmström welcomed the historic agreement of the first criminal law instrument since Lisbon, although she regretted the failure to extend extra-territorial jurisdiction to habitual residents.
Next, the Council agreed a general approach on the draft directive on combating sexual exploitation and sexual abuse of children and child pornography. This draft directive aims to update existing EU legislation in the area of combating child sexual exploitation and pornography in line with technological developments. The Government supported the presidency and agreed with the general approach.
The presidency noted they had made good progress on the draft directive on the European investigation order but that a number of issues still needed to be considered.
The presidency also sought a general approach on the draft directive on the right to information in criminal proceedings. This is the second measure in the road map to strengthen procedural rights in criminal proceedings. It aims to set common minimum standards and improve the rights of suspects and accused persons by ensuring that they receive information about their rights. The Government maintained their parliamentary scrutiny reservation on this proposal but also welcomed the efforts made by the presidency to find a compromise to the text. The presidency concluded that there was support for a general approach.
The Council adopted a negotiating mandate authorising the Commission to begin negotiations with the United States on a proposed EU-US agreement on the protection of personal data when transferred for law enforcement purposes. The Government support the proposed agreement in principle, but were unable to vote in favour of the draft negotiating mandate because we consider that the UK rather than the EU should negotiate rules concerning data exchanges between the UK and the US under their bilateral arrangements.
There was a discussion about the Commission’s recently published Communication on “a comprehensive approach on personal data protection in the European Union”. The Commission argued that, while the principles of the data protection directive are still valid, a more comprehensive approach to data protection is needed to bring the legislation in line with technological developments. The Commission will be bringing forward new proposals in 2011.
Next, the presidency obtained agreement among participating member states of the regulation implementing enhanced co-operation in the field of law applicable to divorce—Rome III. The Government are not participating in this measure.
The presidency provided information about a seminar held on 14 October about resolving international child abduction disputes through mediation.
The Council then considered a state-of-play report from the presidency about the progress made during its term in the area of e-justice.
Under AOB, the Commission presented their citizenship report highlighting the importance of citizenship rights and the need to ensure they are better communicated.
Over lunch, there was a discussion about the forthcoming directive on access to a lawyer in criminal cases. This will be the third measure on the road map to strengthening criminal procedural rights, which is likely to be published in June 2011. The Commission is still in the early stages of drafting the proposal.
Parliamentary Written Question (Correction)
(14 years ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)
I regret to inform the House there was an inaccuracy in my answer to parliamentary question 20342 on 1 November 2010, Official Report, column 564W.
The response indicated that since 2006 credit unions have made over 262,056 loans to financially excluded people, with an additional 43,308 loans made through other community finance organisations. It also indicated that over 275,000 customers who took out a Growth Fund loan also opened a bank or savings account.
The figure quoted for customers who took out a Growth Fund loan and also opened a bank or savings account is a projection to the end of March 2011, but the response makes it appear that this is the figure to date. It is in fact estimated that the number of people who will have opened a bank or savings account to September 2010 is 216,000.
Skills Conditionality: Public Consultation
(14 years ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)
Today my hon. Friend the Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning and I have published a joint document setting out how we intend to implement skills conditionality when certain benefit claimants are referred to training as part of their journey back to work.
The Government believe that individuals who are able to look for or prepare for work should be required to do so as a condition of receiving benefit, and those who fail to meet their responsibilities should face a financial sanction. Improving someone’s skills is one of the key ways to help individuals prepare for and gain work.
This consultation proposes that claimants required to either actively seek, or prepare for, work could be mandated to undertake activity to address an identified skills need which will aid their movement into work. This puts activity to address a skills need on to the same basis as other conditionality requirements.
The proposed policy will require legislative changes. The purpose of this consultation is to seek views on the implementation of skills conditionality that will make it fair, consistent and as administratively straightforward as possible. The consultation will run until 3 February.
Copies of the consultation document are available on the Department’s website at: http://dwp.gov.uk/consultations/.
Benefits Uprating
(14 years ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)
I am pleased to announce the proposed rates of benefit for 2011, which are set out in the table below. The annual uprating of benefits will take place for state pensions and most other benefits in the first full week of the tax year. In 2011, this will be the week beginning 11 April. A corresponding provision will be made in Northern Ireland.
2010 | 2011 | |
|---|---|---|
Attendance Allowance | ||
Higher rate | 71.40 | 73.60 |
Lower rate | 47.80 | 49.30 |
Bereavement Benefit | ||
Bereavement payment (lump sum) | 2,000.00 | 2,000.00 |
Widowed parent's allowance | 97.65 | 100.70 |
Bereavement Allowance | ||
Standard rate | 97.65 | 100.70 |
Age-related | ||
age 54 | 90.81 | 93.65 |
53 | 83.98 | 86.60 |
52 | 77.14 | 79.55 |
51 | 70.31 | 72.50 |
50 | 63.47 | 65.46 |
49 | 56.64 | 58.41 |
48 | 49.80 | 51.36 |
47 | 42.97 | 44.31 |
46 | 36.13 | 37.26 |
45 | 29.30 | 30.21 |
Capital Limits - rules common to income support, income based jobseeker's allowance, income-related employment and support allowance, pension credit, housing benefit and council tax benefit unless stated otherwise | ||
Upper limit | 16,000.00 | 16,000.00 |
Upper limit—pension credit guarantee credit and those getting hb/ctb and pension credit guarantee credit | No limit | No limit |
Amount disregarded—all benefits except pension credit and housing benefit and council tax benefit for those above the qualifying age for guarantee credit | 6,000.00 | 6,000.00 |
Amount disregarded—pension credit and housing benefit and council tax benefit for those above the qualifying age for pension credit | 10,000.00 | 10,000.00 |
child disregard (not pension credit) | 3,000.00 | 3,000.00 |
amt disregarded (living in RC/NH) | 10,000.00 | 10,000.00 |
Tariff income | ||
£1 for every £250, or part thereof, between the amount of capital disregarded and the capital upper limit | ||
Tariff income—pension credit and hb/ctb where claimant/partner is over guarantee credit qualifying age | ||
£1 for every £500, or part thereof, between the amount of capital disregarded and capital upper limit | ||
Carer's Allowance | 53.90 | 55.55 |
Council Tax Benefit | ||
Personal allowances | ||
Single | ||
18 to 24 | 51.85 | 53.45 |
25 or over | 65.45 | 67.50 |
entitled to main phase ESA | 65.45 | 67.50 |
lone parent | 65.45 | 67.50 |
couple | 102.75 | 105.95 |
dependent children | 57.57 | 62.33 |
pensioner | ||
single/lone parent has attained the qualifying age for Pension Credit but under 65 | 132.60 | 137.35 |
couple—one or both has attained the qualifying age for Pension Credit but both under 65 | 202.40 | 209.70 |
single/lone parent—65 and over | 153.15 | 157.90 |
couple—one or both 65 and over | 229.50 | 236.80 |
Premiums | ||
Family | 17.40 | 17.40 |
family (lone parent rate) | 22.20 | 22.20 |
child under 1 | 10.50 | 10.50 |
Disability | ||
Single | 28.00 | 28.85 |
Couple | 39.85 | 41.10 |
enhanced disability | ||
single | 13.65 | 14.05 |
disabled child | 21.00 | 21.63 |
couple | 19.65 | 20.25 |
severe disability | ||
Single | 53.65 | 55.30 |
couple (lower rate) | 53.65 | 55.30 |
couple (higher rate) | 107.30 | 110.60 |
disabled child | 52.08 | 53.62 |
Carer | 30.05 | 31.00 |
ESA components | ||
work-related activity | 25.95 | 26.75 |
Support | 31.40 | 32.35 |
Alternative maximum Council Tax Benefit | ||
second adult on IS, JSA(IB), ESA(IR) or Pension Credit | 25% of council tax | 25% of council tax |
first adult(s) student(s) | 100% of council tax | 100% of council tax |
second adult's gross income: | ||
under £177.00 | 15% of council tax | 15% of council tax |
£177.00 to £230.99 | 7.5% of council tax | 7.5% of council tax |
Deductions—rules common to income support, jobseeker's allowance, employment and support allowance, pension credit, housing benefit and council tax benefit unless stated otherwise | ||
Non-dependant deductions from housing benefit and from IS, JSA(IB), ESA(IR) and Pension Credit aged 25 and over in receipt of IS and JSA(IB), in receipt of main phase ESA(IR), | ||
aged 18 or over, not in remunerative work | 7.40 | 9.40 |
aged 18 or over and in remunerative work | ||
- gross income: less than £122.00 | 7.40 | 9.40 |
- gross income: £122 to £179.99 | 17.00 | 21.55 |
- gross income: £180 to £233.99 | 23.35 | 29.60 |
- gross income: £234 to £309.99 | 38.20 | 48.45 |
- gross income: £310 to £386.99 | 43.50 | 55.20 |
- gross income: £387 and above | 47.75 | 60.60 |
Non-dependant deductions from council tax benefit | ||
aged 18 or over and in remunerative work | ||
- gross income: £387 or more | 6.95 | 8.60 |
- gross income: £310 - £386.99 | 5.80 | 7.20 |
- gross income: £180 - £309.99 | 4.60 | 5.70 |
- gross income less than £180 | 2.30 | 2.85 |
others, aged 18 or over | 2.30 | 2.85 |
Deductions from housing benefit | ||
Service charges for fuel | ||
Heating | 21.55 | 21.55 |
hot water | 2.50 | 2.50 |
Lighting | 1.75 | 1.75 |
Cooking | 2.50 | 2.50 |
Amount ineligible for meals | ||
three or more meals a day | ||
single claimant | 23.35 | 24.05 |
each person in family aged 16 or over | 23.35 | 24.05 |
each child under 16 | 11.80 | 12.15 |
less than three meals a day | ||
single claimant | 15.50 | 16.00 |
each person in family aged 16 or over | 15.50 | 16.00 |
each child under 16 | 7.80 | 8.05 |
breakfast only—claimant and each member of the family | 2.85 | 2.95 |
Amount for personal expenses (not HB/CTB) | 22.30 | 22.60 |
Third party deductions from IS, JSA(IB), ESA(IR) and Pension Credit for; | ||
arrears of housing, fuel and water costs council tax etc. and deductions for ELDS and ILS. | 3.30 | 3.40 |
child support, contribution towards maintenance (CTM) | ||
standard deduction | 6.60 | 6.80 |
lower deduction | 3.30 | 3.40 |
arrears of Community Charge | ||
court order against claimant | 3.30 | 3.40 |
court order against couple | 5.15 | 5.30 |
fine or compensation order | ||
standard rate | 5.00 | 5.00 |
lower rate | 3.30 | 3.40 |
Maximum deduction rates for recovery of overpayments (not CTB/JSA(C)/ESA(C)) | ||
ordinary overpayments | 9.90 | 10.20 |
where claimant convicted of fraud | 13.20 | 13.60 |
Deductions from JSA(C) and ESA (C) | ||
Arrears of comm. charge, council tax, fines & overpayment recovery | ||
Age 16 – 24 | 17.28 | 17.81 |
Age 25 + | 21.81 | 22.50 |
Max. deductions for arrears of child maintenance (CTM) | ||
Age 16 – 24 | 17.28 | 17.81 |
Age 25 + | 21.81 | 22.50 |
Dependency Increases | ||
Adult dependency increases for spouse or person looking after children—payable with; | ||
State pension on own insurance (Cat A or B) | 57.05 | 58.80 |
Long-term incapacity benefit | 53.10 | 54.75 |
Severe disablement allowance | 31.90 | 32.90 |
Carers allowance | 31.70 | 32.70 |
short-term incapacity benefit (over state pension age) | 51.10 | 52.70 |
short-term incapacity benefit (under state pension age) | 41.35 | 42.65 |
Child Dependency Increases—payable with; | ||
State pension; widowed mothers/parents allowance; short-term incapacity benefit—higher rate or over state pension age; long-term incapacity benefit; carer's allowance; severe disablement allowance; industrial death benefit (higher rate); | 11.35 | 11.35 |
Note: | ||
The rate of child dependency increase is adjusted where it is payable for the eldest child for whom child benefit is also paid. The weekly rate in such cases is reduced by the difference (less £3.65) between the ChB rates for the eldest and subsequent children. | 8.10 | 8.10 |
Disability Living Allowance | ||
Care Component | ||
Highest | 71.40 | 73.60 |
Middle | 47.80 | 49.30 |
Lowest | 18.95 | 19.55 |
Mobility Component | ||
Higher | 49.85 | 51.40 |
Lower | 18.95 | 19.55 |
Disregards | ||
Housing benefit and council tax benefit | ||
Earnings disregards | ||
standard (single claimant) | 5.00 | 5.00 |
Couple | 10.00 | 10.00 |
higher (special occupations/circumstances) | 20.00 | 20.00 |
lone parent | 25.00 | 25.00 |
childcare charges | 175.00 | 175.00 |
childcare charges (2 or more children) | 300.00 | 300.00 |
permitted work higher | 93.00 | 95.00 |
permitted work lower | 20.00 | 20.00 |
Other Income disregards | ||
adult maintenance disregard | 15.00 | 15.00 |
war disablement pension and war widows pension | 10.00 | 10.00 |
widowed mothers/parents allowance | 15.00 | 15.00 |
Armed Forces Compensation Scheme | 10.00 | 10.00 |
student loan | 10.00 | 10.00 |
student's covenanted income | 5.00 | 5.00 |
income from boarders (plus 50% of the balance) | 20.00 | 20.00 |
additional earnings disregard | 17.10 | 17.10 |
income from subtenants (£20 fixed from April 08) | 20.00 | 20.00 |
Income support, income-based jobseeker's allowance, income-related employment and support allowance and pension credit | ||
Earnings disregards | ||
standard (single claimant) | 5.00 | 5.00 |
Couple | 10.00 | 10.00 |
higher (special occupations/circumstances) | 20.00 | 20.00 |
Other Income disregards | ||
war disablement pension and war widows pension | 10.00 | 10.00 |
widowed mothers/parents allowance | 10.00 | 10.00 |
Armed Forces Compensation Scheme | 10.00 | 10.00 |
student loan (not pension credit) | 10.00 | 10.00 |
student's covenanted income (not pension credit) | 5.00 | 5.00 |
income from boarders (plus 50% of the balance) | 20.00 | 20.00 |
income from subtenants (£20 fixed from April 08) | 20.00 | 20.00 |
Earnings Rules | ||
Carers allowance | 100.00 | 100.00 |
Limit of earnings from councillor's allowance | 93.00 | 95.00 |
Permitted work earnings limit | ||
Higher | 93.00 | 95.00 |
Lower | 20.00 | 20.00 |
Industrial injuries unemployability supplement permitted earnings level (annual amount) | 4,836.00 | 4,940.00 |
Earnings level at which adult dependency (ADI) increases are affected with: | ||
short-term incapacity benefit where claimant is | ||
(a) under state pension age | 41.35 | 42.65 |
(b) over state pension age | 51.10 | 52.70 |
state pension, long term incapacity benefit, severe disablement allowance, unemployability supplement—payable when dependant | ||
(a) is living with claimant | 65.45 | 67.50 |
(b) still qualifies for the tapered earnings rule | 45.09 | 45.09 |
Earnings level at which ADI is affected when dependent is not living with claimant; | ||
state pension, | 57.05 | 58.80 |
long-term incapacity benefit, | 53.10 | 54.75 |
unemployability supplement, | 53.90 | 55.55 |
severe disablement allowance | 31.90 | 32.90 |
Carers allowance | 31.70 | 32.70 |
Earnings level at which child dependency increases are affected | ||
for first child | 200.00 | 205.00 |
additional amount for each subsequent child | 26.00 | 27.00 |
Pension income threshold for incapacity benefit | 85.00 | 85.00 |
Pension income threshold for contributory employment support allowance | 85.00 | 85.00 |
Employment and Support Allowance | ||
Personal allowances | ||
Single | ||
under 25 | 51.85 | 53.45 |
25 or over | 65.45 | 67.50 |
lone parent | ||
under 18 | 51.85 | 53.45 |
18 or over | 65.45 | 67.50 |
Couple | ||
both under 18 | 51.85 | 53.45 |
both under 18 with child | 78.30 | 80.75 |
both under 18 (main phase) | 65.45 | 67.50 |
both under 18 with child (main phase) | 102.75 | 105.95 |
one 18 or over, one under 18 | 102.75 | 105.95 |
both over 18 | 102.75 | 105.95 |
claimant under 25, partner under 18 | 51.85 | 53.45 |
claimant 25 or over, partner under 18 | 65.45 | 67.50 |
claimant (main phase), partner under 18 | 65.45 | 67.50 |
Premiums | ||
enhanced disability | ||
Single | 13.65 | 14.05 |
Couple | 19.65 | 20.25 |
severe disability | ||
Single | 53.65 | 55.30 |
couple (lower rate) | 53.65 | 55.30 |
couple (higher rate) | 107.30 | 110.60 |
Carer | 30.05 | 31.00 |
pensioner | ||
single with WRAC | 41.20 | 43.10 |
single with support component | 35.75 | 37.50 |
single with no component | 67.15 | 69.85 |
couple with WRAC | 73.70 | 77.00 |
couple with support component | 68.25 | 71.40 |
couple with no component | 99.65 | 103.75 |
Components | ||
Work-related activity | 25.95 | 26.75 |
Support | 31.40 | 32.35 |
Housing Benefit | ||
Personal allowances | ||
Single | ||
under 25 | 51.85 | 53.45 |
25 or over | 65.45 | 67.50 |
entitled to main phase ESA | 65.45 | 67.50 |
lone parent | ||
under 18 | 51.85 | 53.45 |
18 or over | 65.45 | 67.50 |
entitled to main phase ESA | 65.45 | 67.50 |
Couple | ||
both under 18 | 78.30 | 80.75 |
one or both 18 or over | 102.75 | 105.95 |
claimant entitled to main phase ESA | 102.75 | 105.95 |
dependent children | 57.57 | 62.33 |
pensioner | ||
single/lone parent has attained the qualifying age for pension credit but under 65 | 132.60 | 137.35 |
couple—one or both has attained the qualifying age for pension credit but both under 65 | 202.40 | 209.70 |
single/lone parent—65 and over | 153.15 | 157.90 |
couple—one or both 65 and over | 229.50 | 236.80 |
Premiums | ||
family | 17.40 | 17.40 |
family (lone parent rate) | 22.20 | 22.20 |
child under 1 | 10.50 | 10.50 |
disability | ||
single | 28.00 | 28.85 |
couple | 39.85 | 41.10 |
enhanced disability | ||
single | 13.65 | 14.05 |
disabled child | 21.00 | 21.63 |
couple | 19.65 | 20.25 |
severe disability | ||
single | 53.65 | 55.30 |
couple (lower rate) | 53.65 | 55.30 |
couple (higher rate) | 107.30 | 110.60 |
disabled child | 52.08 | 53.62 |
carer | 30.05 | 31.00 |
ESA components | ||
work-related activity | 25.95 | 26.75 |
support | 31.40 | 32.35 |
Incapacity Benefit | ||
Long-term incapacity benefit | 91.40 | 94.25 |
Short-term Incapacity Benefit (under state pension age) | ||
lower rate | 68.95 | 71.10 |
higher rate | 81.60 | 84.15 |
Short-term incapacity benefit (over state pension age) | ||
lower rate | 87.75 | 90.45 |
higher rate | 91.40 | 94.25 |
Increase of long-term incapacity benefit for age | ||
higher rate | 15.00 | 13.80 |
lower rate | 5.80 | 5.60 |
Invalidity allowance (Transitional) | ||
higher rate | 15.00 | 13.80 |
middle rate | 8.40 | 7.10 |
lower rate | 5.45 | 5.60 |
Income Support | ||
Personal allowances | ||
single | ||
under 25 | 51.85 | 53.45 |
25 or over | 65.45 | 67.50 |
lone parent | ||
under 18 | 51.85 | 53.45 |
18 or over | 65.45 | 67.50 |
couple | ||
both under 18 | 51.85 | 53.45 |
both under 18—higher rate | 78.30 | 80.75 |
one under 18, one under 25 | 51.85 | 53.45 |
one under 18, one 25 and over | 65.45 | 67.50 |
both 18 or over | 102.75 | 105.95 |
dependent children | 57.57 | 62.33 |
Premiums | ||
family/lone parent | 17.40 | 17.40 |
pensioner (applies to couples only) | 99.65 | 103.75 |
disability | ||
single | 28.00 | 28.85 |
couple | 39.85 | 41.10 |
enhanced disability | ||
single | 13.65 | 14.05 |
disabled child | 21.00 | 21.63 |
couple | 19.65 | 20.25 |
severe disability | ||
single | 53.65 | 55.30 |
couple (lower rate) | 53.65 | 55.30 |
couple (higher rate) | 107.30 | 110.60 |
disabled child | 52.08 | 53.62 |
carer | 30.05 | 31.00 |
Relevant sum for strikers | 35.00 | 36.00 |
Industrial Death Benefit | ||
Widow's pension | ||
higher rate | 97.65 | 102.15 |
lower rate | 29.30 | 30.65 |
Widower's pension | 97.65 | 102.15 |
Industrial Injuries Disablement Benefit | ||
18 and over, or under 18 with dependants | ||
100% | 145.80 | 150.30 |
90% | 131.22 | 135.27 |
80% | 116.64 | 120.24 |
70% | 102.06 | 105.21 |
60% | 87.48 | 90.18 |
50% | 72.90 | 75.15 |
40% | 58.32 | 60.12 |
30% | 43.74 | 45.09 |
20% | 29.16 | 30.06 |
Under 18 | ||
100% | 89.35 | 92.10 |
90% | 80.42 | 82.89 |
80% | 71.48 | 73.68 |
70% | 62.55 | 64.47 |
60% | 53.61 | 55.26 |
50% | 44.68 | 46.05 |
40% | 35.74 | 36.84 |
30% | 26.81 | 27.63 |
20% | 17.87 | 18.42 |
Maximum life gratuity (lump sum) | 9,680.00 | 9,980.00 |
Unemployability Supplement | 90.10 | 92.90 |
increase for early incapacity | ||
higher rate | 18.65 | 19.25 |
middle rate | 12.00 | 12.40 |
lower rate | 6.00 | 6.20 |
Maximum reduced earnings allowance | 58.32 | 60.12 |
Maximum retirement allowance | 14.58 | 15.03 |
Constant attendance allowance | ||
exceptional rate | 116.80 | 120.40 |
intermediate rate | 87.60 | 90.30 |
normal maximum rate | 58.40 | 60.20 |
part-time rate | 29.20 | 30.10 |
Exceptionally severe disablement allowance | 58.40 | 60.20 |
Jobseeker's Allowance | ||
Contribution based JSA—Personal rates | ||
under 25 | 51.85 | 53.45 |
25 or over | 65.45 | 67.50 |
Income-based JSA - personal allowances | ||
under 25 | 51.85 | 53.45 |
25 or over | 65.45 | 67.50 |
lone parent | ||
under 18 | 51.85 | 53.45 |
18 or over | 65.45 | 67.50 |
couple | ||
both under 18 | 51.85 | 53.45 |
both under 18—higher rate | 78.30 | 80.75 |
one under 18, one under 25 | 51.85 | 53.45 |
one under 18, one 25 and over | 65.45 | 67.50 |
both 18 or over | 102.75 | 105.95 |
dependent children | 57.57 | 62.33 |
Premiums | ||
family/lone parent | 17.40 | 17.40 |
pensioner | ||
single | 67.15 | 69.85 |
couple | 99.65 | 103.75 |
disability | ||
single | 28.00 | 28.85 |
couple | 39.85 | 41.10 |
enhanced disability | ||
single | 13.65 | 14.05 |
disabled child | 21.00 | 21.63 |
couple | 19.65 | 20.25 |
severe disability | ||
single | 53.65 | 55.30 |
couple (lower rate) | 53.65 | 55.30 |
couple (higher rate) | 107.30 | 110.60 |
disabled child | 52.08 | 53.62 |
carer | 30.05 | 31.00 |
Prescribed sum for strikers | 35.00 | 36.00 |
Maternity Allowance | ||
Standard rate | 124.88 | 128.73 |
MA threshold | 30.00 | 30.00 |
Pension Credit | ||
Standard minimum guarantee | ||
single | 132.60 | 137.35 |
couple | 202.40 | 209.70 |
Additional amount for severe disability | ||
single | 53.65 | 55.30 |
couple (one qualifies) | 53.65 | 55.30 |
couple (both qualify) | 107.30 | 110.60 |
Additional amount for carers | 30.05 | 31.00 |
Savings credit | ||
threshold—single | 98.40 | 103.15 |
threshold—couple | 157.25 | 164.55 |
maximum—single | 20.52 | 20.52 |
maximum—couple | 27.09 | 27.09 |
Amount for claimant and first spouse in polygamous marriage | 202.40 | 209.70 |
Additional amount for additional spouse | 69.80 | 72.35 |
Pneumoconiosis, Byssinosis, and Miscellaneous Diseases Scheme and the Workmen's Compensation (Supplementation) | ||
Total disablement allowance and major incapacity allowance (maximum) | 145.80 | 150.30 |
Partial disablement allowance | 53.90 | 55.55 |
Unemployability supplement | 90.10 | 92.90 |
increases for early incapacity - | ||
higher rate | 18.65 | 19.25 |
middle rate | 12.00 | 12.40 |
lower rate | 6.00 | 6.20 |
Constant attendance allowance | ||
exceptional rate | 116.80 | 120.40 |
intermediate rate | 87.60 | 90.30 |
normal maximum rate | 58.40 | 60.20 |
part-time rate | 29.20 | 30.10 |
Exceptionally severe disablement allowance | 58.40 | 60.20 |
Lesser incapacity allowance | ||
maximum rate of allowance | 53.90 | 55.55 |
based on loss of earnings over | 71.40 | 73.60 |
Severe Disablement Allowance | ||
Basic rate | 59.45 | 62.95 |
Age-related addition (from Dec 90) | ||
Higher rate | 15.00 | 13.80 |
Middle rate | 8.40 | 7.10 |
Lower rate | 5.45 | 5.60 |
State Pension | ||
Category A or B | 97.65 | 102.15 |
Category B(lower)—spouse or civil partner's insurance | 58.50 | 61.20 |
Category C or D—non-contributory | 58.50 | 61.20 |
Additional pension | Increase by: | 3.10% |
Increments to:- | ||
Basic pension | Increase by: | 3.10% |
Additional pension | Increase by: | 3.10% |
Graduated Retirement Benefit (GRB) | Increase by: | 3.10% |
Inheritable lump sum | Increase by: | 3.10% |
Contracted-out Deduction from AP in respect of pre-April 1988 contracted-out earnings | Nil | Nil |
Contracted-out Deduction from AP in respect of contracted-out earnings from April 1988 to 1997 | Increase by: | 3.00% |
Graduated Retirement Benefit (unit) | 0.1153 | 0.1189 |
Increase of long-term incapacity for age | Increase by: | 3.10% |
Addition at age 80 | 0.25 | 0.25 |
Increase of long-term incapacity for age | ||
higher rate | 18.65 | 19.25 |
lower rate | 9.35 | 9.65 |
Invalidity Allowance (Transitional) for State Pension recipients | ||
higher rate | 18.65 | 19.25 |
middle rate | 12.00 | 12.40 |
lower rate | 6.00 | 6.20 |
Statutory Adoption Pay | ||
Earnings threshold | 97.00 | 102.00 |
Standard Rate | 124.88 | 128.73 |
Statutory Maternity Pay | ||
Earnings threshold | 97.00 | 102.00 |
Standard rate | 124.88 | 128.73 |
Statutory Paternity Pay | ||
Earnings threshold | 97.00 | 102.00 |
Standard Rate | 124.88 | 128.73 |
Statutory Sick Pay | ||
Earnings threshold | 97.00 | 102.00 |
Standard rate | 79.15 | 81.60 |
Widow's Benefit | ||
Widowed mother's allowance | 97.65 | 100.70 |
Widow's pension | ||
standard rate | 97.65 | 100.70 |
age-related1 | ||
age 54 (49) | 90.81 | 93.65 |
53 (48) | 83.98 | 86.60 |
52 (47) | 77.14 | 79.55 |
51 (46) | 70.31 | 72.50 |
50 (45) | 63.47 | 65.46 |
49 (44) | 56.64 | 58.41 |
48 (43) | 49.80 | 51.36 |
47 (42) | 42.97 | 44.31 |
46 (41) | 36.13 | 37.26 |
45 (40) | 29.30 | 30.21 |
1 For deaths occurring before 11 April 1988 refer to age-points shown in brackets. |
Grand Committee
Budget Responsibility and National Audit Bill [HL]
(14 years ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Eatwell
“Peer Review Committee0
(1) There will be a Committee of 5 suitably qualified persons, not being or having been members of the Office, to be known as the Peer Review Committee (the “Committee”).
(2) It will be the responsibility of the Committee to prepare an annual report on the accuracy of fiscal and economic forecasts prepared by the Office, including the appropriateness of the methods employed.
(3) The Committee must—
(a) publish the report,(b) lay it before Parliament, and(c) send a copy of it to the Treasury.”
Lord Eatwell
My Lords, I hope we can have a fairly brief Committee today, not least because the annual contest between the universities of Oxford and Cambridge at Twickenham has just kicked off. This, however, is not a contest but an attempt to improve the Bill. In moving Amendment 40 and speaking to Amendment 43, I believe we can significantly improve it.
We have already discussed whether the OBR should write its own school report, as the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, referred to it. There was general agreement around the House that that was a bad idea. In proposing this amendment I have, as I am sure Ministers and officials have, examined procedures in equivalent organisations in other jurisdictions. The most relevant of these is the US Congressional Budget Office, although there are significant differences between the two organisations. The CBO is answerable to Congress, whereas the OBR is a creature of the Executive. This has been the source of many of our difficulties in constructing a framework of independence. None the less, we have something valuable to learn from the CBO, which uses clear and extensive peer review. As I am sure the Minister is aware, the CBO is scrutinised by a large and very distinguished peer review committee of, I think, about 20 people. Nothing so large is necessary for the rather more limited activities of the OBR. None the less, independent peer review will undoubtedly be valuable. It will not only add to the intellectual input to the activities of the OBR—undoubtedly a positive factor—but act as a further buttress to independence. The peer review committee of the Congressional Budget Office publishes its findings on the CBO website, enhancing the transparency of the entire process.
We have already discussed the need for the past forecasts of the OBR to be assessed by some independent authority. That independent authority could be the peer review committee proposed in Amendment 40 to the Bill and Amendment 43 to the schedule, although there could be other ways of doing it. Amendment 40 provides the peer review committee with clear and unambiguous terms of reference. It must report on,
“the accuracy of fiscal and economic forecasts prepared by the Office, including the appropriateness of the methods employed”.
This is a clear technical remit; the committee would not be allowed to stray into the realms of policy.
Amendment 43 provides some detail on the appointment of the peer review committee. Again, I have looked at the practice of the Congressional Budget Office, where many of the members of the peer review committee are nominated by the council of the American Economic Association. I have suggested that the ideal body to recommend to the Chancellor persons of appropriate technical expertise would be the equivalent professional body here in the UK—the council of the Royal Economic Society. Otherwise, appointment will be by the Chancellor, with the approval of the Treasury Select Committee of another place.
It might be argued that the process of peer review will take place anyway in the context of vigorous debate among economists and econometricians over forecasting and policy. However, I submit that without a dedicated peer review committee this debate, which will take place anyway, will tend to be unfocused. The particular value of the peer review committee is to have a group of very well qualified professionals who see it as their responsibility to examine the results and the methods of the OBR. As I suggested, there may be other ways of achieving this objective, but I believe that an independent review of the OBR’s record and methodology will add tremendous value to the process and help to buttress the independence of the OBR, which is something that we all seek. I beg to move.
Lord Burns
My Lords, I have a lot of sympathy with the idea of having independent reviews of forecasts and the methods employed at some intervals during the process. My concern is whether the amendment makes too much of a meal of the issue. It is important to have an appropriate way of appointing an independent person or persons to undertake this work. My preference would be to give this job to the non-executive directors of the OBR. That seems a perfectly respectable way to do this. It is common practice in companies that the independent directors should appoint auditors and should look after other forms of oversight.
I cannot believe that a group of five people is needed to undertake this task, which, as the amendment says, is to evaluate forecasts and to look at the methods used. If we are not careful, we will have the same problem as we have had with the MPC—quite soon, one runs out of qualified people to fill a committee.
I also have concerns about whether an independent review is needed every year. Not a lot will change each year. We will have one year’s figures in the forecasts and we will be able to look at the outturns. When one is looking at issues relating to bias and variables, one typically needs a run of years to be able to see the pattern of the forecasting record. The Bill suggests that there should be an annual review, but to me the issue is how often one needs independent input into this process. I would be cautious about that. It is a task that one could leave to the non-executive directors, who would decide whether, for example, an independent review was needed every year or whether internal and independent reviews should be held in alternate years. I would leave it to the independent directors, or members of the office, to determine the number of people needed for these investigations, who to recruit and whether to recruit the same people on successive occasions.
I support the idea of independent input, but let us not make a meal of it. The task is on a different scale from that in the US example that the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, cited. We need something of a size that is appropriate to the task in hand.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, and his noble friends for their amendment and to the noble Lord, Lord Burns, for his contribution. The Government recognise the importance of external expert challenge, which is the issue that the noble Lords have raised. Indeed, the fact that the OBR analysis is publicly available means that it is open to scrutiny.
On a previous occasion, we debated whether the OBR should produce an assessment of forecast accuracy. This process needs expertise in forecasting, which the OBR clearly has. The Government argue that this expertise will be difficult, although not impossible, to find elsewhere. It also requires a full understanding of the data underpinning the forecasts. Again, the OBR has this, and a similar level of knowledge is scarce elsewhere, although, I acknowledge, not unobtainable.
Assessing previous performance provides a very valuable opportunity for the OBR to learn and understand what has driven diversions from accuracy. It is clear that it is the OBR’s intention to use the report in this way and that it has the right skill set to do so. The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, mentioned the Congressional Budget Office. I understand that, although it does indeed have a panel of external advisers who meet twice a year, the CBO carries out its own analysis of previous forecasts. I think that our proposed design is in line with discussions with international organisations.
The proposals in the amendment raise a number of issues that we need to consider. The Government, for example, believe it is difficult to envisage that the committee could get into the detail needed to produce a comprehensive and meaningful assessment. Like the noble Lord, Lord Burns, we share the concerns about a body of five people being needed to scrutinise this work. We are not sure whether the noble Lord envisages that they would be paid and, if so, how much. We also feel that there is an issue of focus and that it might be appropriate to look at a larger section of the OBR’s work, because perhaps all parts of its work could benefit from external expertise.
In general, in a broader context there is nothing to stop any person or organisation assessing the OBR’s forecast accuracy by looking at its forecasts and comparing them with the actual outturn data. Where value can be added is in making sure that the OBR uses all the best information. That is why we put an emphasis on transparency across the piece. None the less, we accept that bringing in external expertise could be very useful. We believe that it is consistent with the Bill as drafted but that it is important to take a more proportionate approach. Of course, the OBR already has the power to convene advisory panels to provide external perspectives if it sees fit, and Robert Chote indicated his interest in that in his evidence to the Treasury Select Committee. The OBR is already drawing on external expertise, as noted in its autumn forecast statement.
In conclusion, the Government will reflect on whether additional steps are needed in the light of this very helpful debate and suggestion. In particular, I am interested in the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Burns, which I should like to take away and think about.
Lord Eatwell
I am grateful to the noble Lord. Perhaps I may take up a couple of the points to which he referred, as did the noble Lord, Lord Burns. First, there is the question of whether there would be enough people to do the job. The Treasury sends out a compendium of about 40 independent forecasts, so at least 40 independent forecasting organisations are doing this job. It seems to me that within those organisations, as well as within universities and research organisations such as the national institute, there is a sufficient pool of talent to draw on over the years to ensure that this job is well done.
Secondly, in suggesting that there should be a team of five, I was not recommending that they all commit themselves to do the job in any one year; rather, I was proposing that they act as a committee, perhaps assigning a couple of its members to do the job each year. The group of five would provide continuity over the piece.
There was then the question of how much the committee members should be paid. I should tell the noble Lord that academics, in particular, are so obsessive and competitive that they will do this in exchange for a good lunch. Given the amount that they are paid, they are not so well fed these days, and I do not think that there would be any difficulty in finding suitable people at a reasonable level of remuneration.
The key issue is bringing in external experts who are committed to doing the job. As I conceded in my opening speech, the transparency with which the OBR is to operate will attract outside commentators. What is needed is a group of people who have suitable expertise, in whom the Chancellor and the Select Committee of another place have confidence, and whose responsibility it would be to comment on the two major forecasts per year that the OBR is required under the Bill to make. However, I am heartened by the Minister’s response and look forward to further discussions on this matter. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Touhig
Lord Touhig
My Lords, perhaps I may at the outset apologise if I am partly responsible for your Lordships having to meet again today. I very much regret that I had not anticipated the speed with which your Lordships would complete their deliberations on earlier amendments. Although I was around on Monday, I was in the Chamber. I apologise again if my failure to be here has meant that the Committee has had to meet again today.
I apologise also for the fact that this amendment is a manuscript amendment. My original Amendment 41 was deficient in that it used the term “Advisory Committee on Public Appointments”, when it should have said “Advisory Committee on Business Appointments”. I took the information from the 15th report of the Public Accounts Commission. I am afraid that I should have been more careful and checked out that information.
Until earlier this year, I served on the Public Accounts Committee in the other place. As a result of that experience, I have been able to witness at close hand the tremendous work that the National Audit Office does and to see how important the work of the Comptroller and Auditor-General is in keeping a check on how government spends the taxpayer’s money. Crucial to the role of the C&AG is the independence of the person who occupies that office. It is vital that the office is both independent and seen to be independent. For this reason, none of his decisions should be seen as being born of self-interest.
Under the Bill, future appointees to the office of the Comptroller and Auditor-General will serve a one-term period of a maximum of 10 years. There will be the real prospect of former C&AGs, on leaving their appointment, seeking other employment. Indeed, in a letter to me following Second Reading, the Minister made that very point—I have copies if any noble Lord wishes to have sight of it. In the letter, the Minister points out that the Government hope that future C&AGs will want to continue their careers after they complete their 10-year term of office. If this is to be the case, it is important that sufficient safeguards are in place to ensure that that does not compromise the position of the Comptroller and Auditor-General in office.
The Public Accounts Commission’s 15th report of March 2008, to which I have referred, contained a number of proposals that sought to create safeguards. The Bill, however, reduces some of them. The commission proposed that the former Comptroller and Auditor-General should abide by decisions of the Advisory Committee on Business Appointments if he or she were to take up any further employment having left the job. My Amendment 41A would require this.
The Bill states merely that former C&AGs should consult with such people as may be specified by the Public Accounts Commission. I understand from the Minister’s letter that the wording in the Bill would allow for more flexibility on which individuals or organisations were asked to give advice. While I understand from the Minister’s letter that the wording in the Bill would allow for more flexibility on which individuals or organisations are asked to give advice, it could result in inconsistency over time, as to both who gives the advice and what advice is given. It is fairer on former Comptroller and Auditor-Generals if, at the outset of their term of office, they know who will give them advice on any appointment that they may take up on leaving office as well as the basis on which these decisions will be made. As such, I suggest that stipulating who will advise former C&AGs is preferable. Furthermore, the commission’s original proposals stated that former C&AGs would have to abide by the advice that they were given regarding their future employment. The Bill does not allow for that.
The Minister in his letter to me following the Second Reading debate stated that, if a former C&AG were to take up a position against advice received by the commission, the commission would be free to make that advice public. He drew the parallel with how advice is given to former Ministers and argued that that would be a strong deterrent against any former C&AGs going against that advice. However, former C&AGs do not have the same high profile as former Ministers; a former C&AG who ignored the advice of the commission would perhaps not attract as much attention or interest as a former Minister who did such a thing. Hence my Amendment 41A.
Amendment 42 would change the time limit on when former C&AGs may accept Crown employment. If former C&AGs were immediately able to accept a position that is in the gift of the Government, there would be a danger that some people could perceive such an appointment as being a reward for actions taken while in office. That would undermine the integrity of the C&AG and lead to his actions while in office being called into question through speculation about his future.
The Public Accounts Commission suggested in its 15th report that former C&AGs should be prohibited from ever accepting any post that the National Audit Office has audited or which was in the gift of the Government. That is a heavy penalty. The Government agree: the Bill prevents former C&AGs from providing services to the Crown or to a body that is required to open its accounts to audit by the National Audit Office for a period of just two years. However, while it is entirely understandable that we would not wish to put a restrictive life ban on former C&AGs, I suggest that two years may be too short a period. If we accept that the greatest risk is of attempts by the Executive to influence the C&AG, the sensible course would surely be for a time limit to be at least five years. In that time, there is the real prospect that the Government will have changed and that a former C&AG’s appointment would be considered as a Crown appointment by others. Such a time limit would mean that a C&AG would not be able to rely with any certainty on the incumbent Government still being in office at the time when he or she might accept some Crown appointment, which would overcome any suggestion of political influence on any decisions that a C&AG would take while in office. Amendment 42 would be the best guarantee that, between a C&AG leaving office and subsequently being appointed to a Crown position, there was likely to have been a general election.
The Bill is in the main a good Bill. It proposes to do some sensible things, but our task is to scrutinise, question and improve it. I suggest that the two amendments that I have tabled for your Lordships’ consideration will make some improvement to the Bill.
Lord Eatwell
I support Amendment 41A proposed by my noble friend Lord Touhig, albeit on a slightly different basis. Given that this appointment will now be for only one term of tenure, it is important that we attract people of the highest quality to the post. If they felt that their future career prospects were endangered, it is likely that we would not have the very best field from which to choose. Therefore, when someone comes to the end of their tenure, it is appropriate for them to receive advice from an established committee whose procedures and standards are well known and in the public domain, and whose approbation or approval of a particular post is seen as having undergone a strict assessment as to the impact on the integrity of the post and the individual. If we are to get the best applicants for this sort of job, we must give some certainty about the nature of their future careers. The involvement of an established body with agreed procedures and standards would help to provide that.
Interestingly enough, if my noble friend’s Amendment 41A were accepted, his Amendment 42 would be less important. The committee would have given its approval of the post and that would receive general acceptance. Therefore, the longer time period might not be so necessary. However, I defer to my noble friend, who has much more experience in these matters than I do. The Government should look carefully at Amendment 41A, which would improve both the Bill and the performance in this particular post.
The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)
My Lords, I apologise to the Committee for my failure to be here on time. I should like to place on record my gratitude to the police officer outside—I should probably not name him, but I will write to the commissioner—who let me vault the double line of barriers, even though that caused lots of other people in the square, whose intentions in getting to this building were probably not as well meaning as mine, to try to follow me. I place on record my gratitude to the Metropolitan Police officer who exercised some judgment in letting me through. I am sorry that I did not get here at the beginning.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, for raising this question again because it is important that we get right the balance. We must protect the matters of propriety around this office and balance that with what the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, said about attracting the best candidates to the office.
The fact that this amendment is named Amendment 41A rather than Amendment 41 points out the difficulty with naming a particular body, which could come and go over the years. I believe that it is appropriate to leave it to the specification of the Public Accounts Commission, which can decide on the appropriate body to make the decision at the time. I see the point that the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, is making about the desirability of certainty. Of course, it would be open to the Public Accounts Commission to specify at the time of the appointment—obviously not of the current Comptroller and Auditor-General but of future C&AGs—which relevant body would apply. Specifying a body now that could change over the years would provide a degree of unnecessary inflexibility and the law would have to be changed if the body specified ceased to exist. Critically, we have the protection that the appointment is in the hands of the Public Accounts Commission. The certainty point is something that could be taken into account at the time of the appointment.
Lord Eatwell
The amendment reads,
“such person as may be so specified”.
From that, it is not clear to me that the person is to be determined by the Public Accounts Committee, which does not seem to follow the way that the Bill is drafted. I take the noble Lord’s point about succession, although usually when bodies succeed each other their responsibilities are passed on in a reasonably coherent way. This wording does not quite seem to achieve what the noble Lord believes it to achieve, but I shall leave him to consider that. I am not trying to make a difficult point; it is just that the drafting does not seem to be quite right.
Lord Sassoon
That is the intention behind the drafting but I shall see whether, on reflection, it achieves that. I think that we can accommodate the degree of certainty, albeit that, even in the period of appointment of a C&AG, the relevant advisory committee could change.
I turn to the question of abiding by the committee’s decisions. I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, says about this being different from ministerial appointments or other Senior Civil Service appointments, where similar conditions apply. However, as we have seen in recent years, there is, as there should be, a considerable focus on current and former Comptroller and Auditors-General. It is inconceivable that similar pressures to those that apply to Ministers and officials would not apply very directly in this case. Therefore, just as, so far as I am aware, it is not written into other Bills, I do not believe that there is a need to write into this Bill the necessity to abide by decisions. If it were thought appropriate to draw attention to this point, I believe it would be more applicable to the terms of appointment rather than the Bill.
On Amendment 42, I certainly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, that we must make sure that we get the best field of candidates. If the matters that are the subject of Amendment 41A are addressed properly, which I believe in the total construct they are, then I believe that a period of two rather than five years strikes the right balance when considering the terms of the appointment. Again, it is difficult to say what the appropriate read-across should be, but two years is the period during which former Ministers go through clearance procedures, and this is a tighter requirement, as it should be.
In addition, there are potential difficulties concerning the legal enforcement of such a restriction. The issue here is whether, by specifying five years or some other relatively high number, we would risk infringing age discrimination legislation by making the appointment process exclude those who were getting closer to—I do not know what the term should be—perhaps our best years. Therefore, there are real concerns and there is clearly no easy answer to the question of what the right number might be, but the legal advice that the Government have received is that, as one pushed that number up—and five years would certainly lead to the legal advice being uncertain—there would be a significant risk that the restriction would be thought to be an infringement of age discrimination legislation. Therefore, subject to making it absolutely clear that Clause 15 works as intended—I think that it does, but I will look again—I believe that we have struck a proportionate balance which ensures that we get the best candidates for the job but does not in any way leave open a suggestion of impropriety afterwards.
Lord Touhig
I am grateful to my noble friend and to the Minister for their responses. I take the point that my noble friend Lord Eatwell made: if Amendment 41A were accepted, the necessity for Amendment 42 would perhaps not be as great. I also take his point—it was one reason that prompted me to draft this amendment—that the Bill simply says that,
“the person must consult such person as may be … specified”.
I hope the Minister will go back and look further at that, because there is some merit in specifying who will actually look at these matters; indeed, in 2008 the Public Accounts Commission recommended that it should be the Advisory Committee on Business Appointments. The advisory committee was formerly chaired by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, and is presently chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Lang of Monkton, so it has a distinguished chairman and a distinguished membership. The committee’s website says:
“The Advisory Committee on Business Appointments is an independent body which provides advice to the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary, or other Ministers if requested, on applications from the most senior Crown servants who wish to take up outside appointments within 2 years of leaving Crown service”.
I rather think that it will not be abolished in a hurry, because we will always need such a body to give advice to Prime Ministers and to others on these matters.
I am certainly encouraged that the Minister says that he will perhaps go back and further reflect on this. He mentioned his concern that Amendment 42 might have an impact on age discrimination. As someone who celebrated his 63rd birthday on Sunday—I am still flattered, as a new Member of your Lordships’ House, when colleagues come up to me and ask, “Are you settling in, young man?”—I take the Minister’s point as a fair one. Having said that, I await the Minister’s further reflection and coming back to us, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
House of Lords
Children: Adoption
(14 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Northbourne
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have any plans to shorten the time taken to approve adoptions, particularly adoptions of infants.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, the Government have established an adoption advisory group to provide expert advice on removing barriers and delays to adoption. We have also written to local authorities to ask them to do everything possible to increase the number of children appropriately placed for adoption and to improve the speed with which decisions are made. The family justice review is currently considering what changes are needed to the family justice system, including the reduction in delays.
Lord Northbourne
I am most grateful to the noble Lord for that very encouraging reply. I am sure he is aware that every day that a young child bonds with a person who is not going to be his or her principal carer is to the disadvantage of that child. Has the noble Lord or the department thought about—and, if not, I ask him to put it to the committee he described—the concurrent planning scheme devised by the Thomas Coram Foundation for Children fairly recently, whereby the person who fosters the child is the person who ultimately will adopt it, so that the child has the minimum of chopping and changing in those precious early years?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I will certainly take that point back. I know that there are arguments in favour of concurrent planning. I am also aware, though, that people say that it is not necessarily a panacea for the problems that the noble Lord describes. As part of the broader point about discussions with the department, my honourable friend Mr Loughton, the Minister responsible for adoption, is extremely keen to make progress on this matter and has asked me whether, perhaps through the noble Lord, we could organise a meeting with all Peers who are interested in adoption, perhaps early in the new year, to get the benefit of views from this House and to help us try to drive this policy forward.
Baroness Walmsley
Will the Minister ensure that there is a neuroscientist who specialises in babies’ brain development on the committee to which he referred? Is he aware of the great importance of keeping stress away from babies during the very early years, because otherwise the brain does not develop normally and the child has all kinds of problems later in life? A scientist of that nature would understand the urgency of the matter.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I will look into who is on the advisory group. I am afraid that I cannot remember the membership. I will also be sure to relay my noble friend’s important point back to the responsible Minister.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale
My Lords, is the Minister aware of the adoption legislation passed in the Scottish Parliament in January 2007, which contained many new measures designed to speed up the adoption process in the interests of children? Will the Government ensure that there is good co-ordination between the different jurisdictions in the United Kingdom to ensure that no bureaucratic obstacles are put in the way of adoption as a result of the devolution of adoption legislation in Scotland, Northern Ireland or elsewhere?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I am grateful to the noble Lord for that point, which is well made. It seems to me that one of the issues we have with adoption generally is the great disparity in England between different local authority areas. We know that some local authorities are able to place 100 per cent of children within 12 months. Another local authority that I am aware of can place 38 per cent within that period. There are huge differences, and I think that extending the principle on a broader level, which the noble Lord argues for, is certainly worth reflecting on.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, I declare an interest as a former judge who tried adoption cases over many years. I expect that the Minister is aware of the importance in contested adoption cases—which nearly all these cases are—of having social workers and CAFCASS welfare officers as guardians. What will the Government do to ensure that there is a sufficient supply of experienced social workers, and CAFCASS officers in particular, to look after children who are placed for adoption?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I agree with the noble and learned Baroness about the importance of having a sufficiency of well-trained social workers. In an earlier discussion in this House, there was broad agreement on the importance of making sure that there is a good supply. The crucial role that they play in this process is not always fully appreciated. More generally, in terms of the court system, in parallel with the other initiatives that my honourable friend is taking, a review of the family justice system is under way that must also look into these important issues and get the balance right—I know that this is a concern of my noble friend Lady Knight—between privacy and transparency, so that we know what is going on.
The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds
My Lords, will the Minister affirm the conviction that every child matters? In that context, will he tell us how he will ensure, in the light of the encouragement to local authorities at a time when ring-fencing is being lifted, that there is good support for voluntary adoption agencies, not least those run by Anglican and Roman Catholic dioceses?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I agree with the point made by the right reverend Prelate about the importance of voluntary adoption agencies. One issue around the timeliness of adoption—this point lies behind the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne—is that some local authorities appear to have been slightly resistant to using voluntary adoption agencies. In part, there has been an issue over the perceived greater expense of these agencies. However, research shows that when you take all the figures into account, including overhead costs, voluntary adoption agencies are no more expensive than local authority provision.
Baroness Knight of Collingtree
My Lords, will my noble friend assure the House that the rights of parents who strongly object to having their child adopted are clearly heard, and that they are allowed to speak in their own defence in a court of law?
Lord Hill of Oareford
It is absolutely the case. With all these difficult issues, the paramount point is to protect the rights of the child. I completely agree with my noble friend that one should make sure that parents, too, have every opportunity and right to make their views known. As part of the review of the family justice system, the point that my noble friend makes will be borne very much in mind.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, the noble Lord talked about the necessity of having well trained social workers. Does he think that the review being undertaken might look at the curriculum for social work training to see whether any changes or developments need to be made?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I will need to follow up on that point. I will come back to the noble Lord, if I may.
Economy: Growth
Lord Roberts of Conwy
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to encourage economic growth.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox)
My Lords, the Government are taking steps to encourage economic growth by providing stability for business through firm action to tackle the deficit, to make markets more dynamic through reform of the competition regime and corporate governance, and to focus the Government’s activities on providing the conditions for private sector growth. We will ensure that strong, sustainable growth is fairly shared through local enterprise partnerships and through our new strategy for skills.
Lord Roberts of Conwy
I am grateful to my noble friend for that reply. Can she confirm that manufacturing industry is currently expanding at the fastest rate for 16 years and that employment in manufacturing is increasing at the fastest rate for 18 years? Are there other sectors in which the Government anticipate stronger growth?
Baroness Wilcox
My noble friend Lord Roberts makes a very fine point and, yes, of course, I can support the facts that he has read out. Last week’s report that the purchasing managers index for manufacturing rose to 58 in November is absolutely right. The most recent Office for National Statistics data show that manufacturing output in the three months to October 2010 was more than 1 per cent higher than in the previous three months and 5 per cent higher than in the same period a year ago. That growth is evident in the innovative SME Brompton Bicycles, for example, which has grown in recent years from producing 5,000 bikes a year to 30,000 this year.
Lord Soley
Bearing in mind that there is already growth in the economy from the actions of the previous Government following the international recession, and as I have pointed out many times before, that Britain is the sixth largest manufacturing country in the world and we are at the cutting edge of aerospace, sub-sea platforms and other areas, how can the Minister guarantee that the defence cuts affecting the aerospace industry and the 80 per cent cut in the university grant will not put our manufacturing sector at severe risk in the future?
Baroness Wilcox
We are looking across the whole of the manufacturing sector and, in the next few days, we shall bring out a manufacturing strategy to ensure that we are taking our country forward in all areas and at all levels. Of course, the previous Government had some great successes—they should have done; they were in power long enough.
Lord Broers
My Lords, when does the Minister think that we will stop our slide down the manufacturing table? I know our output is up but, if she checks the numbers, I think she will find that we are not in fact in sixth position, but in seventh position. I checked that again this morning. The OECD numbers show that we are some 9 per cent behind France, which is in sixth position, and we are 20 per cent behind Italy, which is in fifth position. I am encouraged by what is happening, but I ask the Minister to assure us that this slide will be stopped. Brazil and Korea are snapping at our heels and we will soon be in ninth position unless we do something about it.
Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, obviously, we are delighted with any signs of growth and of going forward. The figures read out by the noble Lord are not encouraging, but that does not mean to say that we do not have to try to do the best we can. We know, for example, that advanced manufacturing growth is very important for us, and a review will be out very soon. We are reviewing all the areas in which we can find any growth at all, and I am sure that the noble Lord, fine engineer that he is, will help us in any way he can to encourage us in areas from which he thinks growth will come.
Lord Razzall
My Lords, in her Answer to her noble friend Lord Roberts of Conwy, the Minister indicated that the establishment of local enterprise partnerships was a key driver for economic growth. Is she satisfied with the progress in the establishment of those local enterprise partnerships, which, as she will know, is a subject that is dear to the heart of the Liberal Democrat party?
Baroness Wilcox
The formation of 24 local enterprise partnerships is a landmark move that will see business and civic leaders work together to create the conditions for growth in their communities. This is, as we know, a real power shift away from central government and quangos towards local communities and the businesses that really understand the local barriers to growth. We have 24 partnerships already and we are working very hard to ensure that the others will come online as quickly as possible. We are quite confident that this will take things forward in a way that the RDAs never did.
Lord Barnett
My Lords, does the noble Baroness know why the Chancellor withdrew his proposed White Paper on the Government’s policy on growth?
Baroness Wilcox
The Secretary of State in July spoke of developing our strategy in the autumn with a view to publishing a White Paper—or a paper. As we know, the status of a paper is determined by its content. The proposals in the paper did not require legislation. Therefore it was not a White Paper.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
Does my noble friend not accept that improving the nation’s skills is absolutely crucial to the Government’s growth targets? Will she accept that the paper that was published last week, the strategy document Skills for Sustainable Growth, with its emphasis on part-time training, distance learning and adult training, points an extremely valuable way forward and should be supported?
Baroness Wilcox
My noble friend is quite right; it does point us in the right direction for the new skills that we will require. We will encourage skills right across the piece and I think today of all days is one when we can talk about all sorts of ways of educating and bringing our people forward. Skills will be a great part of that.
European Single Market
Lord Tomlinson
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to the British Chamber of Commerce’s eight-point plan for the European single market.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Tomlinson and at his request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for asking the Question. I am sorry—we are all sorry, I am sure—that the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, is not well enough to be here today. We wish him better.
The Government welcome the publication of the British Chambers of Commerce, Eight Ways to Make the Single Market Work. This is a valuable contribution to the debate on the single market, and it identifies a number of matters that should be prioritised as part of the single market Act. The Government will submit a response to the Commission’s consultation on the Act in the new year.
Lord Rosser
I thank the Minister for that response and for her kind wishes to my noble friend Lord Tomlinson. While to complete the single market and to make it work better are a priority for the British Chambers of Commerce, and for the Government, does the Minister acknowledge that to do so will mean additional, not lower, contributions to the EU budget, including additional contributions from the British Government?
Baroness Wilcox
We are at too early a stage to be able to answer questions of finance in this way. In the single market we have at our disposal an unparalleled resource that can provide a framework within which entrepreneurs and businesses can thrive. Therefore we must focus ruthlessly on the relaunch of the single market and ensure that it operates at its full capacity. Then, I think, it will be worth every penny.
Lord Dykes
Has my noble friend seen the latest pamphlets from Business for New Europe—I declare an interest as a strong supporter—in which it repeatedly shows the huge return to this country from the increasing success of the European single market? It is based, incidentally, on the excellent European principle of qualified majority voting. Will the Minister ensure that the Government are well informed on these matters and repeat endlessly to the British public—in view of the attitude of the British press—that the returns from the single market for British exporters and so on are gigantic in comparison with any budget contributions?
Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, yes, it is right. We do an enormous amount of business in the European Union. It is very good for us and we want to make sure that it works even better. There are areas which we are not quite so happy about; we would like to see a freer market right across the European Union so that some of the barriers that stand in the way of our businesses are removed, as they should be for any other country in the European Union. It is supposed to be a free market, and the more freely we can move our goods around, the better.
Lord Reid of Cardowan
My Lords, will the Minister, in all these discussions, concentrate on practical measures to develop trade and the market itself, and resist all measures to superimpose superstructural concepts on variously divergent economies that do not derive directly from the growth of those economies themselves? Does not the present plight of the euro show the folly of forcing upon divergent economies a similar form of currency that is at odds with the natural strength of the individual economies?
Baroness Wilcox
I think I will not comment on the euro today. The noble Lord is absolutely right; we must encourage wherever we can to make the market work as well as possible. To go back to the original Question, which, if I may remind your Lordships, was about our response to the British Chambers of Commerce eight-point plan for the European single market, there are things there that we would be very keen to support. We need to talk about creating effective digital single markets and all the other things like that that can make the market work better. We have enough problems at the moment, and anything positive that we can say is a good idea.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom
I am sorry that my noble friend does not want to talk about the euro today, because one reason why we have a very satisfactory export performance to the eurozone is that we are not in it. Sterling has depreciated against the euro, making life much easier for our exporters. Is she not very glad that we have not joined the eurozone?
Baroness Wilcox
The United Kingdom is not a member of the euro at the moment, and I see no time in future when we are likely to ask to join.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, given the divergent views on Europe in the coalition Government, does the Minister agree with the British Chambers of Commerce that Governments find it difficult to agree the harmonising measures that are essential to making the single market work? What harmonising measures will the Government support?
Baroness Wilcox
The coalition is working extremely well. There are certainly good points in the plan. Spreading the word is one recommendation in the report. We agree with that. SMEs having a level playing field? We agree with that. Proposals being SME-proofed so that the legals do not work against them? We agree with that. The liberalisation of services? Excellent. Moving architects backwards and forwards? We should be able to do that. Creating a digital single market? We want to do that. A single market in energy and freedom of movement there? We want that. Freezes on new laws that cost jobs? We will have to discuss that. Rebalancing the EU budgets towards growth? That is exactly what the report was about. It is an excellent report and we are very happy to support most of it.
Lord Ryder of Wensum
My Lords, contrary to the impression conveyed by the noble Lord, Lord Reid, that the British Chambers of Commerce are asking for a vast extension in the budget, is my noble friend aware that the BCC’s memorandum to the House of Lords states precisely:
“The Post-2013 budget should be set at not more than 1% of GDP”?
I cannot see how that statement in the document is consistent with the impression conveyed by the noble Lord.
Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, I said that we agreed with most of the things in the document, but there are some on which we are still reflecting.
Houses of Parliament: Access during Demonstrations
Baroness Knight of Collingtree
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that access to the Houses of Parliament is maintained during the holding of demonstrations.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
The policing of demonstrations in central London is an operational matter for the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, who has to balance the right to peaceful protest with the rights of wider communities. Part of that balance includes ensuring that Members of this House and the other place, their staff and the public who wish to lobby their MPs are able to get in and out of Parliament in order to carry out their democratic functions in public life.
Baroness Knight of Collingtree
My Lords, does my noble friend recall that the very first action of every Parliament every year is to pass an order in Parliament directing the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police to ensure access for all Members of Parliament to Parliament and that,
“no obstruction shall be permitted to hinder the passage of the Lords or Members”,
to cite Erskine May? Is my noble friend aware that during a recent demo, a number of Peers—and, for all I know, MPs—were denied entry by the police for several hours? Is it not a breach of the constitution that Members of Parliament should be prevented from speaking or voting in these Houses?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, we could spend a long time discussing the British constitution. I remind the House that the sessional order that has been agreed by this House since the 18th century does not, in effect, apply beyond the boundaries of the Palace of Westminster and, in some ways, it may indeed arouse unreasonable expectations. There have been occasions when people have been unable to access the Houses of Parliament by car during recent demonstrations. There was one occasion, I am informed, when a number of additional police from outer boroughs who were reinforcing our local policemen did not recognise the parliamentary passes of Members of either House. That has now been corrected. The police have to balance the democratic right to protest with maintaining access to Parliament. On the whole, I think that all around the House we would accept that the police maintain that balance very well.
Lord Richard
My Lords, when talking about the sessional order, the Minister said that it aroused “unreasonable expectations”. Is he really saying that it is an unreasonable expectation that Members of Parliament and Peers should get to this House?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
I apologise. I should perhaps have said “unrealistic expectations”. There are circumstances in which it may be difficult to maintain access by car. We cherish the right to demonstrate. It is part of an open society. We would not like to have the same circumstances for maintaining order around this House as the Chinese Government maintain on occasion in Tiananmen Square. These are delicate issues. We ask the police to maintain order and to maintain access. As Members will know, when there are large demonstrations, the authorities provide us with information about which entrances will be kept open and where there may be difficulty, and I am sure that Members of this House follow their orders as well as they can.
Lord Higgins
My Lords, what is the basis for the noble Lord’s statement that the sessional order applies only as far as the boundaries of the building? That is an absurd statement. It is not getting into the building once you are at the boundary; it is getting to the boundary. What is the basis for that extremely dangerous statement?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the sessional order is a very traditional thing. I am told that the House of Commons no longer produces a sessional order. We negotiate with the Metropolitan Police Authority on how best to maintain access to the House from the surrounding streets. The statement that,
“during the Session of Parliament … no obstruction be permitted to hinder the passage of the Lords to and from this House”,
is a statement of intent. The police do their best in the circumstances, and the number of occasions on which it has not been possible to enter this House by car or on foot has been very limited, I am assured.
Lord Hughes of Woodside
My Lords, notwithstanding that, does the Minister understand that the demonstration before last I was refused access from Westminster Bridge into Parliament Square on the grounds that the policemen had been told that only MPs were allowed access? Despite showing my pass, they refused utterly to accept that the House of Lords is part of Parliament. [Laughter.] It was quite funny, but it is quite serious. It took 20 minutes to get the policeman to phone a superior officer to let me through. The sessional order quite specifically refers to the House of Lords. Will the Minister draw the attention of the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police to this so that all officers are properly briefed?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the Yeoman Usher is in his place. I am sure he has taken that fully on board and that it will be immediately communicated to the police.
Lord Lawson of Blaby
My Lords, my noble friend suggested that we have to balance the right of access to this House and the House of Commons with the right to demonstrate. In what conceivable way does access by Members of Parliament and Peers to their respective Houses interfere in any way with the right to demonstrate?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, sheer pressure of numbers on occasion creates difficulties for access to this House. I am sure that the noble Lord, like me, has taken part in many public demonstrations in the past, although it is possible that he was not with me on the demonstration against the Iraq war in which some 2 million of us attempted to walk past Parliament and get as far as Hyde Park. I have to say that the Liberal Democrat contingent never managed to get to Hyde Park because there were so many people there. It is a very important part of our democratic life that we maintain the right to protest. Indeed, I am sure that noble Lords on the coalition Benches will know the coalition agreement off by heart. Among other things, it states:
“We will restore rights to non-violent protest”,
and that is what we are doing.
Lord Winston
My Lords, some Members of the House may find the Minister’s reply slightly less than satisfactory. Is he aware that, in getting to Parliament by road last week, many Members were unnecessarily diverted for an extra hour when access to the House would have been quite easy and completely safe, and neither the demonstrations nor our ability to vote in the proceedings of Parliament would have been disrupted? Perhaps a little more understanding from the police is needed, as well as sometimes politeness, to help us on our way in to the House.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I was not aware of that. Again, that will be fed back as well as we can. We have been trying to send noble Lords information as far in advance as possible if it is likely that Carriage Gates are to be blocked and to advise them whether there will be access in and out through Black Rod’s Garden Entrance or whether they would do better to attempt to come over Lambeth Bridge, for example, than Westminster Bridge. We are doing our best in these circumstances.
Our police do very well to maintain access to this House. Nevertheless, it is part of the principle of our democratic life that we should invite people in as often as possible. This is supposed to be an open democracy and an open society. We ask the police to do a difficult job in maintaining that balance.
Business of the House
(14 years ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That the debates on the motions in the names of Lord Pendry and Baroness Thornton set down for today shall each be limited to two and a half hours.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Strathclyde I beg to move the first Motion standing in his name on the Order Paper.
European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Partnership and Cooperation Agreement) (Republic of Indonesia) Order 2010
(14 years ago)
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The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Strathclyde, and with the leave of the House, I beg to move the next four Motions standing in his name on the Order Paper.
Sport: Health and Well-being of Children and Young People
Lord Pendry
To call attention to the role of sport in the health and wellbeing of children and young people; and to move for papers.
Lord Pendry
My Lords, this is a timely debate. By now, the House will be under no illusion that feeling is running high in the sporting world on the issue of the run-down of money for school sport in this country. Last Wednesday, in the other place, it was clear from the Opposition Benches and from some Members from the coalition Benches that there are grave doubts about the wisdom of these sad proposals of the Government. Clearly, the Secretary of State has little or no knowledge of the importance of sport. I hope that he and this Government will reflect on the damage that they will cause if they go ahead with these ill thought through, unfair and disruptive measures. As my honourable friend in another place, Andy Burnham, so eloquently pointed out, Mr Gove has never cared much for sport. As a schoolboy, his school report suggested that he was not one for the playing fields. It now appears that, in government, he plans to impose his feelings on the children of today.
Let me take obesity rates as a starting point. The Government’s own Health Secretary, Andrew Lansley, has expressed his grave doubts over obesity, particularly in young people. As I stated in a previous debate, that is a concern that I undoubtedly share. In fact, the National Health Service information centre report on obesity published last year states that 30 per cent of girls between the ages of two and 15 and 31 per cent of boys of the same age are classed as overweight. Furthermore, 16 per cent of the girls and 17 per cent of the boys are obese. Such worrying figures directly cost the NHS some £500 million per year, with a further £2 billion in costs to the wider economy. The worst projection of recent trends suggests that 75 per cent of the population will be suffering from the ill effects of excess weight within the next 15 years. Surely if we are serious about tackling these crippling statistics, one of the key initiatives must be school sport, yet by removing opportunities for young people to partake in regular sport, these problems will only worsen rather than improve. Sport offers young people a focus and a discipline to help them develop as individuals within communities.
The proposed Government measures run counter to the pledge that we would have a legacy following the 2012 London Olympic Games. It is clear that school sport partnerships must play a central role in such an aspiration. After all, as the noble Lord, Lord Coe, said at the time that we won the bid for the Games at Singapore,
“Give London the Games and we will inspire millions of young people to choose sport”.
In view of the Government’s approach to sporting provision, I doubt that he could make that promise today.
Since the announcement that the Government are to slash the budget for school sport partnerships from £162 million to £10 million, the response from head teachers, schoolchildren and some of the country’s leading sports stars has been little short of overwhelming in its condemnation. In a letter to the Prime Minister, 80 of the country’s top athletes, including Tessa Sanderson, Denise Lewis and James DeGale, expressed their support for SSPs. However, it is not only our elite athletes who are protesting. I would like to refer to a young lady who has contacted me after discovering that the SSP in her area will no longer be funded. Her name is Debbie Foote. She is 17 years of age and chair of the national young ambassador steering group, which is a group of young people who aim to inspire their peers to choose sport and take up a healthy, active lifestyle through the legacy of the 2012 Olympic Games. I quote from a message that she sent to me:
“Through the support of my SSP, I have been able to fulfill my journey with fantastic opportunities and experiences, such as organising world record skipping and hooping events and delivering presentations and workshops to various sporting bodies. I have developed skills such as confidence, time management, leadership, teamwork, communication and responsibility that have provided me with clear aims and a pathway; they have set me up for the rest of my life. I fully believe that these skills have supported my academic development (achieving 11A Stars at G.C.S.E. and 4 A grades at AS level)”.
Indeed, Debbie goes on to say:
“I don’t want other young people to miss out on these experiences and miss out on the chance to fulfill their potential. I believe the SSPs to be so much more than just sport; they enable the development of young people, encouraging them to see beyond themselves to think about the welfare of their peers and inspire them in turn to be the best they can be. This surely only provides hope for the ‘Big Society’ the coalition government wishes to create”.
If the big society is to mean anything at all, surely it must encompass the aims of the school sport partnerships.
With the support of the Youth Sport Trust, the school sport partnerships have delivered on every participation target set for young people. Not only that, the SSPs provide a model that is highly regarded across the world. As was pointed out in the debate in the other place, the Australian sports commissioner has asked how this country could possibly dismantle a “world-leading” school sports system. At the same time, the chief executive of the Canadian Olympic Committee has personally written to the Secretary of State to ask how we can take such steps backwards so close to a home Olympics. It should also be pointed out that New Zealand has expressed its support and is, indeed, eager to learn from our programme. The respect of the programme from other countries has been earned, due to the positive changes in school sport.
When referring to youth sport in this country and, indeed, worldwide, both Houses would agree that the leading voice on the issue over the years has been the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Loughborough. No doubt she will speak for herself in this debate but I wish to place on record my appreciation, which I know is shared by thousands of sportsmen and women, for her tireless support for sport in this country, in particular her devotion to school and youth sport.
I also want to bring to the attention of the House the value of school sport partnerships, not only within schools but across the wider community. The impact can be seen from the number of children taking part, which has risen dramatically. From 2006 to 2009, a further 600,000 young people have taken part in extra-curricular activities. All of that has been further helped by the increased support of the national governing bodies countrywide. Even the LTA is, at long last, on board and is now making a substantial investment in tennis in schools by providing free equipment and by training teachers in more than 8,000 state schools since the start of 2009.
An example of the excellent work being done comes from the Lancaster area, where James McNally is a tennis coach. Two years ago, he quit his office job and began coaching full time. Since then, he has received the full support of his SSP and provides hundreds of local children with the opportunity to play tennis. It is his legitimate fear that, because of the proposed budget cuts in schools, he will no longer be able to work and those hundreds of children will lose their opportunity to play tennis.
Another young lady, Laura Cummings, who is the competitions manager for Tameside schools sports partnership, informs me that 10 years ago, while attending a mainstream school where she was a high academic achiever, she was discouraged by teachers—even her head teacher—from taking PE in order to concentrate on more academic subjects so that she could pursue a career in medicine, science or business. Fortunately, she believed strongly in what sport had to offer the world and she achieved great academic grades at both school and college. She achieved five A* grades at GCSE level and four A grades at A-level before going on to study sports science at Loughborough University. Her story gives a true reflection of the way in which the great majority of teachers view sport, which is a view that will dramatically return if the Secretary of State is left to undo all the hard work that school sport partnerships have achieved.
In answer to the Secretary of State’s belief that sport should be at the discretion of head teachers—many of whom, although by no means all, care not a jot about sport and will encourage pure academic achievement alone by dispersing the allocation of funds to non-sporting events—Laura Cummings would testify that Tameside Metropolitan Borough Council has a very enterprising approach to sport. The council is rightly considered to be one of the best in the country for sporting provision. The New Charter Academy schools sports partnership in Tameside should be congratulated on its approach to sport within its boundaries. Laura Cummings informs me that, since 2005, there has been: a 28 per cent increase in the number of pupils accessing high-quality inter-school competition; a 24 per cent increase in the number of pupils accessing high-quality intra-school competition; a 20 per cent increase in the amount of primary curriculum time allocated to PE and sport; a 9 per cent increase in the number of pupils participating in community clubs; an 8 per cent increase in the number of pupils actively engaged in leadership opportunities; and more than 750 teachers and school support staff accessing accredited PE training courses.
The Secretary of State’s statement that school sport partnerships have not been successful in increasing the number of competitive opportunities for pupils is a complete nonsense. The introduction of SSPs in Tameside has proved that. It has 9,732 pupils with inter-school competition and 4,906 pupils with intra-school competition. All this was achieved since the new charter for school sport partnership was set up. If this represents the opportunities from a single partnership, imagine how great the impact has been through 450 school sport partnerships. For instance, in Greater Manchester alone last year, more than 40,000 competitive opportunities were provided by competition managers and the school sport partnerships network in priority national governing body sports.
The Government have shown that they do not understand, or perhaps even care, about the importance of sport and its enormous value and fun. Sport has been one of the defining features of my life. It has helped me to reach this place. It has shaped my life in a way that I could never have imagined when I laced up my first pair of football boots or first stepped into the boxing ring. With a single stroke of a pen, the Government have set out to deprive future generations of that same chance. The Prime Minister has requested the Secretary of State to rethink; if he does not rethink, he should be moved on.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Pendry, for initiating the debate. His dedication to sport and what it offers is widely acknowledged. I have seen him many times at the Conservative Party conference championing the cause of sport.
We all recognise the great number of benefits that sport provides children and young people—and, let us not forget, those who are somewhat older too. Participating in sport not only gives young people the opportunity to expend the abundance of energy they have, but also plays a major role in developing key skills needed for future life. Learning how to be part of a team, self-discipline, how to experience winning and losing, dealing with challenges and setting goals are only some of the many skills acquired through participating in sport.
For these reasons, I welcome the Government’s proposals that there should be an emphasis on competitive sport within schools. I also agree that school leaders should be trusted to make decisions about school sports. As the Secretary of State has said, with giving schools this new freedom he expects that every school will maintain, as a minimum, the current levels of provision for PE and sport each week for every pupil.
We should remember that not all children are academic; some are talented in other directions. With these new freedoms, school leaders can use sport as a principal way of getting children and young people outdoors, which can have a positive role in improving children’s physical, mental and behavioural well-being. An increasing amount of research confirms this. We have one of the finest outdoor environments in the world and families, community groups and schools can capitalise on the thousands of acres of publicly available land that we have in this country for outdoor sport. Sport in the countryside, such as walking, cycling, fishing and riding, I am told, can burn up 380 calories per hour. Better to burn these calories there than in the high street.
There are many other outdoor sports projects which provide the benefits that I have just outlined. However, I draw your Lordships’ attention to Fishing for Schools, an outdoor educational sports programme about which I have some knowledge. Fishing for Schools is a project run by the Countryside Alliance Foundation, a charity set up in 2007. I declare an indirect interest as a board member of the Countryside Alliance. The aim of Fishing for Schools is to teach children the skills of fishing and, in doing so, allow them to explore and enjoy other areas within the natural world. The project offers short courses for children between the ages of 14 and 16, often those with special educational needs and often those based in urban schools. Fishing for Schools not only gives young people the opportunity to fish and learn a sport for life, but also helps to teach them life skills that will serve them well in later years. The programme is taught by one of the country’s finest fishermen, Charles Jardine, and over the past year more than 400 youngsters of varying abilities have benefited from it. Fishing for Schools has received positive and uplifting feedback from teachers, students and people in the media who have experienced the programme at first hand.
Robson Green, actor and presenter of channel Five's “Extreme Fishing” programme, congratulated the foundation because, as he put it:
“Fishing for Schools really can make a difference".
Likewise, a teacher noted that, after completing the Fishing for Schools course, a pupil, had improved in confidence, was more motivated in school and talked endlessly about what he had learned. He had been suffering from bullying and was in trouble, but since participating in the course he had worked hard, been positive, behaved well and was a more mature and sensible young man.
However, the best advocates for Fishing for Schools are the children who participate. On one recent course an autistic child was so engaged by Charles Jardine’s demonstration that he talked to him about what he had experienced. This was the first time he had ever spoken to anyone outside his family. I believe that such a successful outcome speaks for itself.
Often when we talk and think about the impact of sport, we focus on major sports and how they can be supported, and how future sports stars and Olympians can be trained. This is of course very important not only for those participating but also for national morale. Taking part in a range of sporting activities, which enhance the lives of young people, increase their self-esteem and provide a sense of purpose, has an enormous role to play in a child's development. We should do all that we can to create a climate and the opportunities in which regular participation in sports is encouraged and promoted. In this computer age, should we not see sport as a subject? We should regret profoundly, over many years, the sale of playing fields. In addition, should we not see the academic and physical education of young people as a partnership, as we all seek to do the best that we can for the next generation?
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Pendry on securing this debate. I think it is very timely, particularly because this week, for the first time in history, we have seen children demonstrating for the right to participate in sport. This is a fantastic thing to see.
I also declare an interest. My sister-in-law, Leslie Shepherd, is a school sports co-ordinator in the north-east, so I have a personal insight which I would like to bring to the debate today. I would like to register my concern about two key issues and ask the Minister two questions which I think are important.
First, I am deeply concerned about the process that the Government have adopted in deciding to cut support for the school sport partnerships. The school sport partnerships are populated by people who are literally the most solution-focused and dynamic I have come across. Therefore, can the Minister explain why the Youth Sport Trust and the school sport partnerships were not given the opportunity to develop proposals that would address the concerns expressed by the Secretary of State for Education in his now notorious letter of 20 October; namely, that he wanted to see more competitive sport and less red tape? Why was there not an opportunity there? To abolish the partnerships and the dedicated fund, and only then to think about what to do about the gap left behind and about what the impact on the Olympic legacy might be, seems reckless to me. It seems irresponsible and really quite destructive.
The right honourable Andy Burnham, the shadow Secretary of State for Education in the other place, has recognised that if he were in government he would have had to have brought about cuts to school sports, but he has also been responsible and clear in saying that he would have worked hard to conserve the infrastructure and expertise that enable school sport networks and partnerships to be created and to thrive.
My second concern is the perhaps rather naive idea on the part of the Government that the enormous investment in and commitment to the school sports infrastructure could be replaced by the creation of a schools Olympiad. There has been for some time a national school sport competition, and I do not think that it is an either/or situation. It is the school sport partnerships that are bringing the Olympic message to schools throughout England, and it is they that have been working tirelessly to embed an Olympic legacy in the hearts, the minds and, yes, the healthy bodies of our young people.
I have been privileged to see at first hand the work undertaken by one such partnership and its school sports co-ordinator over the past 18 months to bring together her community to create the Redcar and Cleveland Olympics, culminating, it was hoped, in the national sports week in 2012. The plan was for all PE staff and the school sport partnership to run a programme of competitions after school, involving all the usual sports that the Secretary of State wanted to see—rugby, football, netball, hockey; you name it, they were going about making it happen. They wanted to have this programme of competitions over the whole academic year, and it was to be launched in September 2011 as the Redcar and Cleveland school Olympiad.
There was to be a proper pilot beforehand to iron out any glitches. Events would have been run in partnership with local clubs, something that we have all argued is a good thing, with the support of national governing bodies, which again is something that we have all been arguing is an important development to ensure that the transition from school to lifelong sport can be made. There would have been a strong sense of competition but an ethos of building participation too. The results of all the interschool matches were to be added to a medal table, and then in national school sports week there would be the big event. The year’s activity would have culminated in a county-wide week-long Olympiad, starting with a torch procession running through the streets of Redcar and Cleveland, with an opening ceremony in each school and FE college and then a day of interschool competitions for each year, with each school providing a minimum of 50 pupils. Tees Valley Leisure facilities were to be provided, and all the venues were to be made available by the local authority. The extended schools programme was adding £10,000 of funding to cover all the transport, something that can be very difficult to co-ordinate, giving head teachers confidence that their investment of their teachers’ time would be well spent. There was a real buzz about the idea of the Olympiad. There was interest from local business and, importantly, endorsement from the London 2012 Inspire programme, so that all those participating would know that the London Olympics was their Olympics too even though they lived in the north-east.
To make this Olympiad happen, though, there needed to be someone to drive it forward, with the know-how to catalyse a network of contacts in all the schools around the county as well as all the volunteers who run the clubs—remember, they do their day jobs too—and the sports development people in the local authority. There needed to be someone who could garner the support of national sporting bodies and local businesses and, of course, who could win the confidence of those important head teachers. That person was a school sports co-ordinator, working in a school sport partnership that is soon to become extinct. The whole project now hangs in the balance.
The Redcar and Cleveland school Olympiad might be symbolic of the future of school sport around the country. While the Government prevaricate about what to do about school sport, momentum is being lost. My second question is therefore: can the Minister explain what the Government will do to ensure that the work of school sports co-ordinators continues? These are the people on the front line who make the competitions—which the Secretary of State, Michael Gove, says are so important—happen.
Lord Addington
My Lords, I have been talking about sport in your Lordships’ House for a long time and have a great deal of baggage about it. However, one thing I am convinced about is that we should not worry too much about the name of a group that delivers any sport. If we have to get rid of the existing structure, the name of the structure does not matter. It is what is done on the ground that is important. If the good legacy that is currently there is to be kept, do not worry about the next change. The questions that my noble friend must start answering today are how we are going to preserve what has been good, and how we build on it.
Let us face facts. School is only a part of this process. It may not be the best part of the process. The noble Lord, Lord Pendry, put his finger squarely on this: schools are academic institutions, primarily judged by academic results. This is why things have slipped in the past. There is a messy history of unintended consequences for activity in education. We need to hear how that is guarded against and structured into any new set up. We need to ensure that we use school-time sport to build up a foundation for what goes on. It is easy to forget that the important thing about child sport is that it prepares people for an active life later on, and helps that step to become much easier. It also helps to improve the links between the amateur sports clubs, which are the main driving force for physical activity and sport in this country.
We are not currently in a nirvana; we are just stepping away from one. We may be in a place that is better than it was, but it could be better. We must look at, go through and try to keep the best, and enhance where it is going.
One thing that the coalition has spoken about is that the clubs are always being held back by red tape to an extent, but also by insensitive and inappropriate bits of regulation: CRB checks that are not transferable, and the weight of regulations for bars which would be more appropriate for nightclubs. If we can ensure that they are freed up, we can then being them in and ask them to do some of what has not been done, or even to replace some of the work that has been done. It is another model. It is not that what has gone before is bad, or wholly good. It is simply another way of delivering the same stuff.
The real complaint is that we have not heard enough about how we set up something new. If we can hear about that, I will become much less worried. There will be winners and losers with any change. It is about ensuring that we have an idea of what is to be done. We have not quite heard that yet, and I encourage my noble friend to start telling us about this today if we are to move on and build on the legacy of the past few years.
The Olympics has fundamentally changed the tone of the sporting debate in this country. We take it seriously now. Anybody who has been involved in it knows that there was a sea change when we decided that the political class would combine together to take sport seriously. We have worked in the fact that the White Paper on public health refers to sport and exercise. Previous ones have, too. It interrelates with everything else we do. It is almost impossible to deliver in many other aspects if we ignore exercise, health and sport. Establishing patterns with the young is a very important part. I have a set few minutes in any speech about punching through the Chinese walls in Whitehall; we will take it as read this time. Unless we can have some idea about how we get all parts to come and talk together, what will happen with school sport? This ties in with the rest of the things here. We have now established that aspirin may be a good drug. However, exercise is the wonder drug for public health. We know that. How will we tie everything in? How will we establish these patterns of behaviour? How will we encourage those who do it voluntarily?
Publicly funded outside bodies are a way of delivering some of these changes; they are not the only way. Some people will say that I put too much emphasis on clubs. Sometimes the school is the only delivery mechanism available for people at certain ages. This is probably true. However, we must bear in mind the continuation and flow through. What happens at school age is the start, not the end, of the process. However, if you mess up the base—the foundation—the rest of it will be more difficult.
Lord Brookman
My Lords, I add my support to my noble friend Lord Pendry, someone who, by the way—many of you will not know—has spent all his political life dealing, both in the other place as a Minister and here in this House, promoting sport both in general and as a basic requirement for the wellbeing of children and young people. My noble friend Lord Pendry is exemplary in this respect. Sport is vital in this country. We all know about it, about the test victory the other week and how brilliant that was and about how disappointed we all were when we did not get the World Cup. Is not sport in schools—for children and young people—of utmost importance to us all?
My noble friend Lord Pendry mentioned the debate last week in another place, which I thought was brilliantly handled by Andy Burnham, MP for Leigh. Together with many other MPs, he congratulated the Youth Sport Trust and school sport partnerships as being responsible for achieving major advances in youth sport over the last decade. This is a fact that cannot be hidden. The advancement has been quite remarkable because of those two organisations. However, the coalition Government defeated the Motion that was put before the other place overwhelmingly—which has not been mentioned yet. It seems to me that the Government want to end what they refer to as ringfenced funding and allow schools to decide how best to teach and develop young people. The enormous amount of money that has been cut has been mentioned. People are worried about it.
There are some 450 school sport partnerships in being, covering every school in the country. My reading of that situation is that they have been a very strong success story. In this respect they should continue to fulfil the job of ensuring our children and future generations enjoy sport and, as a consequence, have a healthier lifestyle facing them. I sincerely hope that the Prime Minister means it when he states that he will reflect on the Government’s approach to school sport. Leaving school sport partnerships to further build on their success would be welcomed in this House and across the country.
Baroness Grey-Thompson
My Lords, I declare an interest as I am involved in many areas of sport in the UK: Laureus Sport for Good Foundation, Sports Leaders UK, UK Athletics, LOCOG and International Inspiration. I have previously sat on the Sports Council for Wales, Sport England and UK Sport, and have also worked as a development officer in the late 1990s.
There are many ways in which we can engage young people, whether it be through participating in sport, sports leadership, coaching or officiating. However, it is also important to remember that this should be done both inside and outside school. It is easy to equate sporting opportunity for young people with schools as this is where their friends are, the facilities and the trained people to deliver. School also provides a pragmatic way of focusing resources to have a real impact, but we should not forget parents, governing bodies and non-sporting organisations such as youth groups which can help play their part. Part of the difficulty is that we may all have different ideas of what sport means. Many may not have had a great experience of school sport. Who can remember undertaking cross-country runs in gym knickers or being picked last for the school team? However, this should not affect what is happening now. We all have a responsibility to ensure that our next generation of young people, and ourselves, are fit, healthy and happy. I readily accept that competitive sport is not for all. The size of the Paralympics GB team is around 300. Even if we consider the talent pyramid beneath that, hundreds of thousands of children are outside that and need our support.
There are three areas that we need to look at to encourage young people to reach their potential: participation, whether that is in the form of playing, dancing and enjoying the outdoors and the joys and benefits that being active can bring; experiencing competition and endeavouring to win, but with a sense of balance; or competitive sport and striving to be selected for the team. This is where high-profile events such as the Olympics and Paralympics can inspire people. However, we also have to recognise that the issues are complicated; there is not one solution. Whether you are a boy or a girl, where you live, whether you are disabled and parental income all have an impact on what you can do. Where are we now? We know that female drop-off in sport starts earlier than male drop-off and is more dramatic. By 16, girls are half as likely as boys to meet recommended levels of exercise. Girls think that sports traditionally played by boys, such as rugby and football, are seen by society to be more important than sports played by girls. The Women's Sport and Fitness Foundation has reported that 80 per cent of women do not do enough exercise beyond school to be considered healthy.
From recent data from the Department for Education’s PE and Sport Survey 2009-10, we know that those children in rural areas are more likely to participate in at least three hours of PE and school sport than those in urban areas. The highest performing schools tend to have fewer pupils who are eligible for free school meals, although this is changing rapidly. In the lowest performing schools there is a higher proportion of pupils with special educational needs. What are the risks of not getting this right? We need only look to the USA—I recognise that the numbers are different, but possibly not the percentages—to see what we can expect in the future unless we radically change what we do.
The following data are from the Get Set survey. Up to September 2009, $2 billion had been eliminated from after-school sports programmes. A study of Los Angeles county showed that school communities with more extra-curricular sport activities had drastically lower crime rates than those with fewer programmes. The ratio was 1:18. The cost of losing one child to a life of crime is estimated to be between $1.4 million and $1.7 million. Some 9 million young adults are too overweight to join the military, according to an April 2010 report from retired officers, Mission Readiness. That represents 27 per cent of all Americans aged 17 to 24. The US military spends $60 million annually on recruiting and training replacements for first-term enlistees discharged due to weight problems. One in three young Americans are overweight, obese, or at risk of becoming so, and the obesity epidemic costs $147 billion annually in extra healthcare. In the UK, obesity costs the NHS £8.2 billion a year, and that figure could rise to £46 billion in 2050.
Evidence suggests that spending money now on sports helps to save money later. For example, the cost-benefit analysis of typical after-school programmes for at-risk children shows that each dollar invested returns between $8.92 and $12.90, which is 1,000 per cent return on average.
Participation in sports can also be correlated with positive lifelong indicators of health and of academic and social success. However, I am done with the gloom—on the positive side, there are significant data from the UK to show that young people who participate in sport are more confident, better able to learn, more physically developed and build friendships. I do not believe it is a coincidence that the specialist sports colleges have been show to be the fastest improving, if you judge by academic measures such as GCSE pass rates.
For a few examples: in the school sport partnership where I live in the north-east of England, they offer basketball, cricket, dance programmes, street Latin, early morning pilates, fencing, cycling proficiency, quicksticks—a version of hockey—artistic gymnastics, yoga, judo and Thai boxing. The list could go on and on. It is a far cry from hockey in winter and athletics in summer. For many, it is the first club they belong to, and so much better than a gang.
Sports Leaders UK expect to train 180,000 sports leaders in 2010/11, who will be trained in schools, FE colleges, higher education institutions and youth and community settings. In the next three years, this will lead to over a million hours of volunteer-led sports activity. Just a few miles from here in Newham, Fight for Peace is an international non-profit organisation that started in the favelas of Rio and then came to London, which provides real alternatives for children and youth in disadvantaged communities, dealing with crime, drug dealing and organised armed violence by using sport and education. I could list so many more organisations that change young people’s lives by using sport.
What do we need for the future? In my time, I have sat through many Sports Council reorganisations, various changes in policies and land-grabbing, and I ask that we do not throw out all the good work that has been done to see what still needs to be done. In sport, there is bureaucracy and political culture which needs to be worked on. I believe we need still to work more with primary school PE teachers, many of whom are not trained as PE or sports specialists, who need assistance in running physical activity sessions. We need to keep working with secondary school teachers, and also engage in more sports leadership. We also know that there is a gap in provision for disabled children.
However, we also need to think more widely. Some projects I have seen internationally engage with the mums, teaching them how to play so that they then encourage their daughters and allow them to carry on participating. We in sport need to be much better at putting the case for why sport is important, because it does make a difference, and the figures are there. This is challenging and there are no easy fixes, but improvements will not happen on their own. There is a need to provide a sustainable physical education structure in schools, and support ideas of what to do outside that will benefit children, parents and society. Surely this should be part of our Olympic and Paralympic legacy. Our children deserve it.
Lord Clinton-Davis
My noble friend Lord Pendry—and a very good friend too—has done this House a real service by raising this issue today.
My remarks have been preceded by a fascinating and informative speech from the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, whose prowess we much admire. We are very glad that we can count her among our number. I am also glad that this debate is being wound up by my noble friend Lady Billingham and the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, both of whom I count among my friends today.
The coalition Government have a remarkable proclivity to say one thing and do another. That is exemplified by their approach to the forthcoming Olympics and Paralympics. Young people have always been at the heart of the Labour Party’s thinking, and that is absolutely true regarding the preparation for the Olympics. It is particularly disappointing that the Government have declined to put themselves squarely behind the imaginative ideas that have guided the Labour Party towards its thinking about the Olympics. I say that not as a case of sour grapes, or of political hostility for the sake of it. Indeed, I would have been among the first to have applauded the Government had they reached a more positive conclusion regarding young people and the Olympics. Labour in government tried manfully to apply more hopeful criteria. More young people than ever were becoming eligible through sport in our schools to enjoy sporting facilities that for too long had been virtually the sole property of private schools.
Our constructive approach began to work. Unbelievably, it has been replaced by what I can only call an ideological and verbal dexterity, and little else. However, there emerged indications of public displeasure—even anger—about the approach of the Government, and stubborn governmental minds began, albeit slowly, to change. It is not too late to hope that this process will have an abiding effect on the Government. The £162 million cut in the school sport partnership programme, the SSPP, together with cuts designed to hit the specialist sports colleges, could end up in the dustbin of failed policies.
Why inflict unnecessary damage in the first place? It is never too late to have a change of heart. The alternative of sticking to the Government’s ideas is too grim to contemplate, particularly at this juncture. To think that existing schools’ budgets could fund sport is wholly impracticable, as is uncertainty concerning implementation. To muse, as has been the habit of the coalition, that specialist colleges can choose to pay for their specialism out of the big pot that they receive from the dedicated schools grant is simply illusory.
The Sports Minister, Hugh Robertson, has certainly changed his mind. When in opposition, he supported the Labour Government’s ideas; but in government, he does the exact opposite. Innumerable opponents of the coalition, who are in no way limited to the Labour Party, have fulminated against this damaging reversal. On 22 April this year—not long ago—Hugh Robertson said:
“There has never been a more important time for school sport, and the Olympic legacy must have school sport at its heart”.
He was right then, and it is right now that we should pursue that policy.
The Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, the subject of sport in schools is currently an emotive one and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Pendry, for initiating this debate, which is important for every pupil who aspires to sports of any kind. We are at a crossroads.
It is not just desirable but vital that sport flourishes in schools where it prevails, and is developed where little or none exists. The arguments in favour of the additional benefits of sport, beyond nurturing sporting skills, have been well rehearsed; sport encourages healthy competition and promotes teamwork and camaraderie as a life skill. There are, of course, strong links to health—from increasing pupil self-esteem to decreasing obesity rates—with the potential for a reduction in demand over the long term for the NHS.
I start with the reality—the premise that I support the Government in their necessary strategy to dig deep to repay the huge debts inherited from the previous Government. Let us not forget that the CSR highlighted the protection of the schools budget, which will increase in real terms at a rate of 0.1 per cent per year. The network of school sport partnerships, led by the Youth Sport Trust, has been achieved—but at a substantial cost. The infrastructure includes 450 partnership development managers, 225 competition managers, 11 regional development managers and three national development managers, who work alongside the members of the governing body for each sport. There is undoubtedly some bureaucracy here, as exemplified in the school sport partnerships’ “self-review tool”, which contains 115 boxes to tick. This is clipboard management, as opposed to time spent on coaching, training and inspiring sport on the pitch or track, or in the pool.
This may explain why £2.4 billion was spent on school sports between 2003 and 2010, but there was only a 20 per cent take-up on average in competitive sports. There has been considerable variation around the country, as the statistics demonstrate. There are 1,280 secondary schools—one-third of the total—in which no pupils take part in regular competitive sport within the school, let alone with other schools, yet there are 320 schools where all pupils regularly take part. There has to be improvement, better value for money and greater consistency. However, it is less wise to cancel the budget over such a short timescale. I hope to hear that the Government will have a rethink. It is unrealistic to expect all schools to source funds for school sport out of the protected schools budget. The only guarantee is that the 6 million pupils who currently play no competitive sport will continue not to do so.
Where there are successful partnerships, it is unwise at best, and foolhardy at worst, to endanger the infrastructures that have been set up with up to 200,000 volunteers. Some may wither and die. Many people are dedicated to improving sport in schools, and they should be applauded. Where there has been a 100 per cent take-up, there is no doubt that it has been the result of extraordinary efforts by the schools and their teachers, and the communities, including parents.
Maximum continuing encouragement must be given to all primary and secondary schools to play sport, especially in poor areas where facilities are minimal and obesity rates are high. Surely it is better to argue that funding will be withdrawn or substantially reduced, if necessary over an agreed timescale and with a three-year time limit, to take account of different local sports infrastructures and funding, in order to allow time for schools and communities to review their partnership structures and finances. As outlined by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education, this process should be led by the heads of schools, but what if they are unwilling to prioritise this, or they say that they are not able or are not going to allocate funds? What steps are being taken to advise and incentivise head teachers to ensure that in future they commence, maintain or improve school sports activities? For example, should the Government adopt a fund-matching scheme, with every pound found for sport by a school outside its budget being matched by government, or perhaps with a different ratio?
In agreeing with the granting of greater autonomy to head teachers, I believe that there will be a requirement actively to manage them through the process to approach philanthropists and local businesses to support school sports. The role of parents in sport should not be underestimated as an obvious source of practical help, both in helping to supervise sports where their own children are involved and in effecting introductions for help in schools through their work or communities. I am aware that in the poorest areas this is much less likely to happen, and schools may be reduced to receiving help sourced only from local businesses or benefactors. There is also the question of whether there are playing fields in the first place.
Schools in which sport is prevalent are more likely to attract high-quality teachers. Sport is known to improve behaviour in the classroom, with teachers in these schools seeking involvement in sports coaching. Funding for sports may have to continue well beyond the spring of 2011 in areas where there is a danger of networks of volunteers built up over the past decade ceasing to exist.
There has been much debate, in particular resulting from the CSR, about legacies left to our children and grandchildren. We would have much to answer for if the “Interests” section of the CVs of our young read “going to the cinema” or “seeing my friends” rather than “cricket”, “rugby”, “football”, “captained my team” or, even better, “represented my country at the Olympics”. We must do more.
Lord Haskel
My Lords, I will speak about one particular sport that has in the past and will in future benefit the health and well-being of our young people. I speak of cycling. My family and I have cycled for years. We took our children on cycling holidays and we now cycle with our grandchildren. Cycling has certainly grown in popularity and esteem among young people, particularly in the past couple of years, because success at the Beijing Olympics has made it cool.
My wife and I have become heroes to our grandchildren, because in 2010 we will have ridden more miles by bike than we have driven in our car—albeit with a little electrical pedal assistance. Knowing his generosity of spirit, I am sure that my noble friend will not mind my joining the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, in mentioning sport for older people in his debate about sport for young people. I am sure that the Minister, too, will be delighted to hear about it: after all, her leader and deputy leader are cyclists.
The noble Viscount, Lord Younger, mentioned box ticking. Cycling ticks all the boxes in the coalition agreement—and I mean all. Does it save the planet? Yes—tick. Getting people out of their cars and on to their bikes to travel long and short journeys reduces pollution by particulates. It also reduces congestion. Both these reductions improve air quality, which we urgently need to do because in some parts of Britain it has fallen below EU minimum standards, and this makes us liable to hefty fines. Are noble Lords aware that some streets are being washed with a mixture of salt and vinegar to remove particulates that each year cause several thousand premature deaths?
By the next box is the question: does cycling improve health? Yes—tick. The Government's recent paper, Healthy Lives, Healthy People, is full of support for the idea that exercise such as cycling helps reduce obesity, heart disease and related illnesses. My noble friend Lord Pendry gave us the numbers. Consequently, it improves longevity and well-being. The beauty of cycling is that it has an attraction all of its own. It certainly does not need the stealthy techniques of behavioural science to get us on our bikes. Perhaps this is what is meant by the paper when it states:
“Reframing the concept of exercise as a fun and positive game taps into salience, while rewards and the social aspect strongly incentivise a change in behaviour”.
Perhaps the Minister can translate that; obviously, the Prime Minister's behavioural insight team is at work. Frankly, it seems pretty feeble when compared with the practical work done during the past 10 years, some of which was described by my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis, in such schemes as the school sport partnerships programme, described by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson. These schemes get children doing two or more hours of sport a week. I hope that the Minister will listen to the arguments of my noble friend Lord Pendry, and all other noble Lords who have spoken, about why that work should continue, and forget the gobbledegook, which I find rather sinister.
By the next box is the question: is it good for the economy? The answer is yes. Cycling is growing not only as a sport but as a form of non-polluting tourism that helps rural economies. Cycle tourism attracts investment from the private sector, from local authorities and from European structural funds. It helps to create welcome employment in many rural areas. The C2C route has certainly encouraged tourism in the north Pennines, as any noble Lord who has done that route will confirm. Only today, during Question Time, the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, quoted, as an example of an important piece of growth in the economy, the rise in the manufacture of bikes in this country.
Cycling also attracts high-tech investment, not only in new materials for lighter and better bikes but in the batteries for electrically-assisted bikes. Battery technology is a huge growth area in the green economy, and there is a growing market in lithium ion batteries and metal hydride batteries, which are being developed and produced in Britain not just for bicycles but mainly for the many applications where batteries replace carbon fuel.
The question by the next box is: is there a government body that supports and organises all this excellent work? There was. Cycling England has an annual budget of £60 million, which is match-funded by local authorities. It is the government body that is largely responsible for promoting and facilitating cycle use in this country. The first six towns and cities in which it has concentrated on improving cycling showed an average 27 per cent increase in cycling. It has also helped to attract structural funds from Europe and from cycle manufacturers.
The next question asks: has it been abolished? Yes, tick, even though its administrative budget was less than £200,000 a year because some of the work was done by enthusiastic volunteers. Presumably, in the name of political correctness and ideology there will be no more ring-fenced central grants for cycling in England, except for a small amount for cycle training. Meanwhile, its work is on hold and the European structural funds are still in Brussels.
I look forward to hearing the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, chair of the Youth Sport Trust. As a taster, perhaps I may quote from her letter of 29 October to the Minister’s right honourable friend Michael Gove, the letter to which my noble friend Lady Morgan referred. It says that the trust:
“is also committed to ensuring that those young people who do not enjoy team sports are provided with opportunities to engage in an activity that they can pursue throughout their lifetime. This investment in young people's wellbeing, as well as their sporting prowess, is essential to a healthy nation and a vibrant economy”.
The noble Baroness is absolutely right. I ask the Minister to please tick one more box for us, the box marked, “Made a mistake, will think again”.
Baroness Benjamin
My Lords, I am honoured to be taking part in this important debate, as it concentrates on two issues close to my heart: children and sport. Both, if nurtured, will bring joy and happiness to the world. Many people in our society realise that world-class athletes would never have discovered their talents if they had not been introduced to sport at an early age, especially by sports specialists. As sports men and women become younger and younger and achieve international success, children have to begin participating in sport at as early an age as possible if we are to remain world-class competitors.
This is happening in some parts of our society, but not for all children and young people. Not a day goes by without a mention of the dangers of childhood obesity, as already mentioned by noble Lords on all sides of the House, and of the long-term effects of the lack of exercise on the nation's health, with the resulting impact on healthcare resources. There are other benefits, apart from the benefits to the health and well-being of the nation as a result of sporting participation. For some, sport is an ideal way of harnessing the energy which they may otherwise use less productively, as it brings discipline into their unstructured lives. For children and young people, sport is without doubt a pathway to confidence and self-belief. It gives them a chance to excel and to achieve success. For many of them, participation in sport can open up new horizons and lead to personal development beyond their wildest dreams.
One of our greatest Olympians, Sir Steve Redgrave, often relates the story of how he got into rowing through the enthusiasm of the head of English at his comprehensive school. His wife, Ann, got into the sport of rowing through Charing Cross medical school, where she was chosen because she was tall. She was sitting in the canteen and they picked her. Those are two chance encounters that have had a tremendous impact on both Ann and Steve but have also benefited the entire nation. However, we cannot leave to chance the involvement of children in sport, and the issue is getting the ones not normally enthused or excited by sporting activity to get active.
It remains a fact that many children, for a variety of physical, social and cultural reasons, are unable to participate in sporting activities, and we must make extra efforts in these areas to find ways of giving them the obvious physical and psychological benefits of sport. For example, the inclusion of Muslim girls in physical education has to be sensitive to the needs of the diverse Muslim population. A school in the West Midlands realised that it had to encourage Muslim parents to allow their daughters to take part in PE because many of them were nervous or had reservations about their daughters participating, especially after school. So the school decided to change its PE curriculum to reflect the needs and concerns of parents and their children and offered opportunities to explore cultural diversity, community participation and well-being.
To raise parents' awareness of the importance of PE and school sport, a health and fitness club was set up for mothers during the school day and, later on, children were invited to join them. At the same time parents were consulted on changes to the PE curriculum, highlighting the emphasis on developing learners' skills in communication, listening, problem solving, co-operation and teamwork through PE. Almost all the girls now attend PE lessons regularly, and many also participate in out-of-hours clubs, summer schools and family fun days. By welcoming the challenge of providing PE and school sport that is appropriate for the school's cultural context, it has succeeded in achieving marked improvements in learners' motivation, commitment and enjoyment.
In the past the PE curriculum was prescriptive and weighted towards games activities, but now many schools have had a radical rethink of their curriculum. Pupils now experience a range of activities such as strategies and tactics, creative movement and health, fitness and well-being. The aim is to give children and young people the expertise, knowledge and skills to enable them to make informed decisions in their lives. Teachers have noticed the impact that this has had because students are now learning skills and strategies that help them to achieve in all subjects. They tackle new tasks with greater confidence and they feel empowered. That has been proven over and over again.
We all know that team sports can help children and young people to develop a range of skills as they have to work independently as well as being good team players, which can help them to develop excellent leadership skills when organising and motivating others. It also helps them to develop physical competence and performance to outwit opponents when competing. It goes without saying that sporting activities and exercises help children and young people to improve and strengthen their muscles, develop a deeper understanding of the physiological effects of exercising and develop confidence in order to communicate more effectively, giving them a great sense of achievement.
On a personal note, at school I always loved sporting activities that helped me to excel in others areas of my life. As I took my love for sporting activities into my adult life, which includes running marathons, I have gained huge health benefits by keeping a steady weight and low cholesterol levels, and reducing the risk of high blood pressure and the likelihood of having a stroke, as well as developing skills of endurance and perseverance. This proves to me that childhood lasts a lifetime. What we expose our children to today will stay with them for ever, and that includes a healthy sporting lifestyle, supplied with passion and understanding of their needs and abilities.
I ask my noble friend the Minister what measures are being put in place to ensure today's children will experience the joy and health benefits of sporting activities which they can take with them into adulthood.
Lord Hoyle
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Pendry on introducing the debate. There is no doubt about his expertise and knowledge of sport, not only in schools but outside them. It is unfortunate—he would have been the best sports Minister we have ever had. I would have liked to have seen him in that position, and I am sorry he never had it.
The noble Lord, Lord Brookman, was modest in what he said. He could have told us that he was one of the best cricketers in Wales when he was younger, purely because of his experience in school. He could join in sport at school—and he did so.
I declare an interest in that I am president of Warrington Wolves rugby club—
Lord Hoyle
Thank you. We have an education department that sends people with expertise to schools and we send our players, which helps to develop the interest of schools in sport generally. It is not just about rugby league; it is about other sports as well.
Everyone who has spoken today, whatever view they have taken, has agreed on one thing: school sport is absolutely essential to all of us. It is good for the health of children and it is good in reducing obesity, about which we talked earlier. Nothing is better than engaging in school sports. That is the way to have healthy children with healthy bodies, and it gives them an interest as well. As the noble Lord, Lord Pendry, said, when we won the Olympics in Singapore, we undertook to inspire young people through sport. I think that is essential.
How have we gone about it? One way was setting up the school sport partnerships in 2000. We should look at what was done and it is right to ask how the Government are going to replace what was done then. They used collaboration between secondary and primary schools—with the secondary school as a hub for the primary school. This meant that you were looking not only at one school but at an area where people could develop their sports activities—not only the school within its curriculum, but the curricula of all the other primary schools in the area.
That led to quite a number of things occurring. In primary schools, it not only encouraged those who loved sport, it was also to encourage children who disliked sport—as my noble friend Lord Haskel indicated in the boxes he was ticking—so they engaged in physical activity. It has been highly successful in that respect, because by doing it in this way, having one school as a hub and covering an area, it enabled a wide variety of sports to be offered. My noble friend Lord Haskel referred to the fact that not only did it offer traditional sports—and he made a plea for cycling—but also other activities, because of the school sport partnerships. Fishing was referred to earlier, also archery, golf, riding and basketball, and that enables more children to participate in different sports. It has been a success story. So I cannot understand why it is being abandoned. It also brought in leadership within the school and leadership within the primary school, with older children being able to encourage younger children to participate—obviously with the supervision of teachers.
As a result, the school sport partnerships have a wide appeal and are working. On 21 November, an editorial in the Observer said of the school sport partnerships system, “it works”. It said that since it became operational,
“the number of children involved in inter-school competitions has increased”—
and I want to emphasise this—
“has increased by 1.63 million; the number involved in competition within schools”.
The Government say they are going to have such competition, but this has already increased by 1.15 million, so success is there. The editorial goes on to say,
“the proportion of children in state schools fulfilling the curriculum requirement of at least two hours’ PE per week increased from 25% to 95%”.
So it has increased from 25 per cent in 2001 when we introduced the school sport partnerships to 95 per cent now. Surely, whichever way you look at that, it is a success story. That is why I cannot understand the Government taking the attitude they are. Unfortunately, while 93 per cent of children are in state schools, this has largely been looked at by Ministers who have had private education. That is the unfortunate aspect of it. I do not think they understand what they are going to destroy, particularly the Secretary of State for Education whose achievements—or lack of achievements—were described by the noble Lord, Lord Pendry, earlier.
There have been some protests of course. I understand the Secretary of State for Health was quite upset about what is happening. The Deputy Prime Minister was asked if all the coalition had been involved in taking this decision. I am not sure they were. I want to ask the Minister one pertinent question: the decision has been taken, but has the Secretary of State for Education visited a school sport partnership? My understanding is that he has not visited to see it on the ground, and that is one of the difficulties that we face.
The abolition of the school sport partnerships—which I have described as a success—is a decision that has been taken hastily, is ill-thought-out, and will put the progress that has been made in school sport back a decade.
Lord Judd
Does my noble friend agree that in his remarks about the experience of Ministers in the private sector of education—and I am a product of the private sector of education—sport is regarded as absolutely essential to character-building and that many children were preferred because of their sporting abilities as distinct from their academic abilities? If we want to emulate in the state system what is best in the private sector, then we should be determined to see that sport is given the pride of place it should have.
Lord Hoyle
I could not agree more with my noble friend. Although he had a private education, he is looking at the wider field. If we are to develop our sports stars of the future and to give people who have not had an interest to take an interest in some sport, we must continue with the school sport partnerships. I thank my noble friend for his support.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, first, I add my thanks to my noble friend Lord Pendry for initiating this debate. As we have heard, he has a notable record as a tireless campaigner for many years on sports issues, and he has today again illustrated how passionately he is committed to that cause.
There are good reasons why this issue is topical today. For me, it is not least because it raises important questions about joined-up government. In fairness, I acknowledge that the previous Government came rather late to that concept, but latterly their track record on co-ordinating action to improve child health was good. We now appear to have gone backwards. Joined-up thinking, co-ordination and partnership are out. Autonomy, independence and individualism are in. That has far-reaching implications for the universal provision of sport and exercise in schools, which underpinned the previous Government's success in this area.
That, of course, brings us to Michael Gove's announcement. Like some of my noble friends, I am interested to know how much liaison there was with his ministerial colleagues in other departments in advance of his decision to downgrade the compulsory features of sports facilities in schools. Did he, for example, consult the Minister for Sport, who described the Youth Sport Trust in 2005 as “a fantastic organisation”, and who argued earlier this year that it would be wrong to dismantle 13 years of hard work carried out by the school sport partnerships? Did he consult the Minister for Public Health, whose recent White Paper identified that,
“children need access to high quality physical education”,
backed by a requirement to provide PE in all maintained schools?
Did he consult the Secretary of State for Health, who is faced with growing statistics of childhood obesity, with the UK now having the highest levels in Europe, and with the associated epidemic of childhood diabetes and cardiovascular disease? Did he consult the Prime Minister, who personally announced that in future the nation's whole progress will be measured by happiness and well-being standards as well as economic indices? Where was the joined-up government thinking on the health and well-being of children, and how is it being rolled out into specific departmental action plans?
Like my noble friend Lord Pendry, I read the debate on school sports held in the other place last week. I was amused by my right honourable friend Andy Burnham's suggestion that Michael Gove's attack on the current sports regime might be some kind of revenge for some unpleasant memories of his sporting experience at school. I am sure that that is not the case, but it raises the question of what his motives really are. Michael Gove's views on the curriculum are well known. He wants to see children sitting in rows, learning the kings and queens of England and the great works of literature, but he also shares the previous Government's ambition to drive up academic standards.
If he had taken a more holistic view of children's education, he would know that exercise has been shown to improve children's exam results and their concentration in lessons. A study in the journal Developmental Medicine and Child Neurology earlier this year reported that children who take vigorous exercise every day boost their mental age by an average of 10 months. In addition, a report from the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority in 2009 found that physical activity has a motivational impact on children,
“increasing their self-esteem and general wellbeing”,
and helping them,
“to develop essential social skills such as concentration, self discipline, cooperation and an awareness of the need to think of things and people other than themselves”.
Even in Michael Gove's new favourite country, Finland, which has improved academic performance impressively, regular breaks for exercise and a nutritious, free school meal are interspersed with intensive teaching on a daily, universal basis. So even if we shared his narrow objective of raising academic achievement, the evidence clearly shows that regular daily exercise is part of the solution.
I understand that Michael Gove's educational conservatism extends to the type of sport that is played in school. Apparently, there is not enough Rugby Union, netball, hockey and gymnastics. I do not know about other noble Lords, but I do not have one good memory of my experience on the hockey field of Whitchurch High School. In fact, it came close to putting me off sport for life. Surely, the first step in developing a good sport policy is to find sports which people can enjoy. That was the point captured by the NICE guidelines, which the Library kindly supplied for this debate. They identified the need to ensure that physical activity is healthy, fun and enjoyable and tailored to the child's development and physical ability. That is precisely what the school sport partnerships were achieving. They expanded the choice of sports available and made them enjoyable and accessible, with the result that, between 2002 and 2010, the proportion of young people doing at least two or more hours of sport per week rose from 25 per cent to 90 per cent.
We all want children to do well at school and be happy and motivated, but we cannot ignore our wider responsibility to head off the growing threat to children's well-being which comes through the rise in obesity. In the UK, about 27 per cent of children are now overweight. That is partly the result of poor diet, but it is also the result of lack of exercise. It is not enough to say that parents should take responsibility for that, as they themselves are often the problem. The strongest predictor of being obese is having an obese parent of the same sex. A report by the University of Glasgow found that parents wildly overestimated the amount of exercise that their children were undertaking. If we are serious about protecting young people from the ill-health that arises from obesity, we need more opportunities for sport and exercise in schools and after-school clubs, not fewer. We need a programme that appeals to all, not just the elite sportsmen, and we need guarantees that every child in this country will have access to a minimum national provision.
Finally, we need a robust system to measure whether we are being successful in raising the standards of child health. It is not much to ask, and I hope that the Minister can reassure me that, on reflection, it is the model that the Government intend to adopt.
Baroness Campbell of Loughborough
My Lords, I add my congratulations and thanks to my noble friend Lord Pendry on securing this debate and on his personal tribute, which was greatly appreciated. The timing of this debate is very important, given the release of the White Papers on public health and education.
I believe that sport is one of the most powerful tools we have to shape young people's lives. It is a cross-cutting tool that can deliver health improvements, educational achievement, community cohesion and great moments of sporting inspiration. Over recent weeks, school sport has been the subject of much debate. I will therefore focus my contribution on how the delivery of sport in schools is crucial if we are to impact on the health and well-being of our young people.
First, I must declare my interests. I am chair of the Youth Sport Trust, an independent charity established in 1994 by Sir John Beckwith with the support of Duncan Goodhew. Our mission: to build a brighter future for young people through physical education and sport and to return school sport to the heart of school life. With the support of the Youth Sport Trust, the first 11 specialist sports colleges were established in 1996 under the previous Conservative Administration. We now support 522 sports colleges and academies, including 40 special schools. The inclusion of all young people has been a central tenet of our work from the outset: something for everyone. Those 522 schools have become beacons of good practice, acting as important centres for research and innovation in health, physical education and school sport.
In 2000, the first school sport co-ordinators were funded. It was agreed to use sports colleges as the hubs and to appoint part-time school sport co-ordinators in the surrounding secondary schools. These families, developed by the Youth Sport Trust, became known as school sport partnerships, and government funding to establish and support those partnerships went directly to the hub school. None of this funding went through the Youth Sport Trust, and it was never administered by the trust then or now. There are now 450 school sport partnerships that include all primary, secondary and special schools in England. It is the only strategy of its kind to embrace every school in the country.
The context of my contribution today stems from the current debate on the future funding of school sport partnerships. Emotions are running very high, but that is because young people, head teachers, parents and sports men and women care so deeply about this issue and have seen the steady and remarkable progress made in the past 10 years. School sport partnerships are a unique nationwide delivery system providing national governing bodies of sport and commercial partners as well as government initiatives in health, Change 4 Life clubs, transport, Bikeability, education and sport with an efficient and cost-effective way of delivering their programmes to every school and child in the country. Each school sport partnership has been built around local needs and shaped by head teachers to drive whole-school improvement, to support young people to develop active lifestyles and to provide opportunities for young people to participate, perform, excel and lead in sport.
I am conscious that we have heard many statistics, but I make no apology for sharing again from the independent national PE and school sport survey some of the evidence that shows the impact of these partnerships on young people. Sports colleges are the fastest improving academically of all specialisms, which totally dismisses the notion of sport being a distraction from educational achievement. The work we have done with BSkyB on behaviour change has produced outstanding results, retrieving many young people from school exclusion and crime. Participation in two hours of physical education and sport a week has risen from an estimated 25 per cent in 2003 to over 90 per cent now, which is surely an enormous contribution to the future health of this nation. The range of sports available to young people has been expanded giving greater choice for all young people no matter what their ability, disability or interest. Three-quarters of a million young people have taken part in leadership and volunteering programmes enhancing their self-worth and self-esteem. Schools have doubled the number of links with sports clubs, which is an important part of linking school and community. We now have 49 per cent of five to 16 year-olds taking part in some form of inter-school sport competition and 78 per cent of them taking part in intra-school sport, or house sport as it is often known.
These increases in participation and competition have been achieved because of a collaborative network of outstanding sport professionals who share expertise and dedicate thousands of hours to their work. I want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to every single one of them. They have not only met every target set for them by government but have exceeded them all. They have made a life-changing difference for a whole generation of young people, and whatever happens now they should be proud of their legacy and we should loudly praise their efforts.
Talking of legacy, let us not forget that we made a promise to the world in Singapore. When we won the right to host the London Olympics, we said that we would inspire young people around the world to choose sport. The Olympic and Paralympic Games are nearly upon us and surely there can be no greater opportunity to inspire and motivate young people to take up an active lifestyle or to pursue their own dreams of one day becoming a champion than right now. However, for that to be possible, we need to retain a network of people dedicated to creating the right kind of opportunities. What will happen if we lose these people? There is no doubt that many secondary schools, with their specialist physical education teachers, will continue to provide a number of extracurricular opportunities, but the great range of options that we have heard about today will be more limited, time to recruit, train and deploy coaches will be reduced, school club links will become more random and the number of opportunities to compete will decline. However, the biggest impact will be felt in our primary and special needs schools where there are only a few specialist physical education teachers and where general classroom teachers have very limited training in physical education and sport. Without the energy, expertise and professionalism of the school sport co-ordinators, we will see a reversal of the progress made in the past 10 years. If we are truly going to affect the health and well-being of our young people, we must ensure that their first opportunity to play sport within a school environment is positive and that we develop physical literacy with the same zeal and vigour that we pursue academic literacy.
Finally, I want to make a point about international comparators. As well as being chair of the Youth Sport Trust, I am also chair of UK Sport, which is responsible for driving our high-performance system and for investing government and lottery money in our Olympic and Paralympic sports. This is a world where international comparison is the ultimate test. In the past few years, the Youth Sport Trust has been privileged enough to be invited to work with colleagues in Australia, New Zealand, the United States of America, the 17 developing countries presently involved in International Inspiration—the London 2012 international legacy programme—and others. While there is no podium in PE and school sport, I suggest that if there were, we would, by common consent, be gold medallists.
I fully appreciate the present economic challenges that we are all facing, but I ask the Government to re-examine the independent data that unequivocally verify the incredible progress that has been made by schools across this country and to seek to preserve the very best of this world-leading system for the future health and well-being of our next generation.
Baroness Massey of Darwen
My Lords, I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Pendry, has secured this debate. We are, I know, all grateful to him for his persistence in pursuing issues of sport and well-being. I am delighted to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, who has done so much for youth sport and whom I thank for her wise words today. I, too, read last week's debate in another place on sport, and I was amazed at the Government's perception of what sport is about, which almost all noble Lords have referred to. For me, sport means an enjoyment of physical exercise and encouraging young people—and older people, too—to do some form of physical activity. Many examples have been given today.
I am not against competitive sport. On the contrary, I used to love participating in it. I have good memories of hockey and lots of other games. I love watching competitive sport, but competing is not the whole story. The letter written by the noble Baroness to Michael Gove has been quoted today. She emphasised opportunities to engage in activity that people can pursue throughout their lifetime. I want to go beyond the arguments about sport and physical health and to look at how sport can benefit general well-being throughout life, which has been referred to by other noble Lords.
An American professor at Harvard, Dr John Ratey, has explored the connection between the brain's performance and exercise. He maintains that even moderate exercise will enhance memory, combat stress and affect hormonal function. For example, after a fitness programme was introduced in an Illinois school district, test scores soared and the district came the world’s first in science and sixth in mathematics. Exercise counteracts stress by increasing blood flow to the brain and creating protective neurochemicals. Exercise raises endorphin levels, is more effective than anti-depressants and can ward off memory loss. Research indicates that women who exercise decrease their chances of dementia by 50 per cent. Exercise can combat addiction and attention deficit disorder. Dr Ratey has shown that exercise is particularly important for women in each stage of the life cycle because it tones down the negative consequences of hormonal changes. Clearly, the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, has benefited from that, and my noble friend Lady Billingham may have done so, too. I do not know how much encouraging physical activity has saved the NHS, but the saving must be worth millions.
Such research—and there is plenty—shows that one of the fundamental experiences that we should be giving to children is exercise, not so that they can think about how much good it is doing them but so that they can enjoy it. The research to which I referred is talking not about competitive sport but about exercise. In its latest report card on child well-being in rich nations, UNICEF—in which I must declare an interest as a trustee—does not talk about competitive sport as affecting well-being; it, too, talks about exercise. The Central Council for Physical Recreation has recently changed its name to the Sport and Recreation Alliance to reflect a better idea of what it does. One of its divisions is movement, dance and outdoor pursuits. Exercise such as dance, yoga, pilates, walking, cycling, swimming and fishing can start in childhood and still benefit people well into old age. Exercise can benefit those who have an illness or a disability if they are given the opportunity to take part in appropriate forums. It is essential to get children moving and not just competing.
Chance to shine is an example of an imaginative and inclusive approach to sport for young people and is supported by the English Cricket Board. The campaign involves encouraging participation in cricket in inner-city schools where there is often limited access to playing fields. It is hugely popular with pupils and staff. More than 4,000 schools are involved already and the millionth child participated this summer. It involves boys and girls of all abilities. A case study from that initiative illustrates some of my earlier points about the effect of sport on well-being. A boy, Paul, aged 11, had changed primary school 10 times and had been expelled from the last two schools that he attended. Both his parents were in prison and several foster placements had been tried without success. Paul had episodes of violent and verbally abusive behaviour, but through chance to shine he discovered a talent for sport. He got in the school team and his behaviour improved dramatically. His school attendance is now 100 per cent. That is one of many success stories. Of course, it is not simply playing cricket that has done this for Paul, but cricket was the beginning. He gained one-to-one support, learnt to be in a team, learnt self control and gained confidence and aspirations. The Labour Government matched 50 per cent of the expenditure of the chance to shine campaign. What will be the future funding for this excellent initiative? We can all be proud of the England team’s fine performance in the recent test match—I hope that no Australians are present today—and of the building blocks of this participation in cricket.
The issue of girls in sport was also mentioned earlier. We certainly need to keep working on encouraging girls to take up sport.
I hope that the Minister will sympathise with the concerns that I expressed earlier. Sport is important as an enjoyable activity. To enjoy it, a wide offering of activity is needed, not just competitive games. As a spin-off to enjoyment, sport has beneficial physical, emotional and intellectual impacts. All those are more likely to be effective if participation in sport is started early and built into growing up. I hope that the Minister will give some reassurances about sport funding, not just for chance to shine but for a wide variety of sport.
Baroness Billingham
My Lords, we are indeed indebted to my noble friend Lord Pendry for securing this debate. We all know that his involvement in sport is acknowledged to be second to none. But even he could not have foreseen that sport would be headline news this week—all over the media—with an unprecedented number of leader columns and serious articles. Perhaps I may also take the opportunity to congratulate all speakers today. This has been a wide-ranging debate with many interesting contributions. I will acknowledge as many as I can, but I regret that time may prevent me from going into much detail. In this excellent debate, we have had many contributions from new Members. To those who had not spoken in debates on sport previously, welcome to the House of Lords sports club.
In his opening speech, my noble friend Lord Pendry referred to the Government’s unfair and destructive proposals. He laid out a comprehensive view of the place of sport in society. He costed the removal of school sports—evidence for which we are very grateful. The noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, the second speaker, is a new voice in this Chamber and he is most welcome in our sports debate. He introduced a subject which we have not discussed previously in sport, which I welcome. I hope that he will continue to take an interest in the wider areas of sport as well.
I thank my noble friend Lady Morgan for a wonderful and passionate speech, and for giving us at first hand her experience in Redcar and Cleveland. That was extremely interesting because we saw how the lives of people in that area were influenced. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, is an old pro in these debates. We always welcome his contribution. He is the most powerful supporter of clubs, which I am too. What he said was a timely reminder that when we look at schools, we must remind ourselves of the links between schools, clubs and the wider community, and how they can be bound together and reinforce each other.
I also thank my noble friend Lord Brookman who lent his support and drew on his experience. What can I say about the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson? How fortunate we are to have her in this House. Her peerless knowledge and influence are sensational. She said that we must make our sporting case much more powerful if we are to be heard.
The contributions have ranged widely and show the concern that many Members feel on numerous occasions. I was very grateful for the contribution of my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis who challenged the Government. He said that they say one thing and do another. I say, “Hear, hear”. He contends that the cuts will cause unnecessary damage. He used his experience within the Labour Party. That task was not easy because sport was never at the head of the agenda when the Labour Party came into power. It certainly improved subsequently.
The noble Viscount, Lord Younger, took me by surprise. I had expected a speech full of cuts and the necessity for following the Gove pattern, but there was not a bit of it. I am wondering whether you would like to join us on this side.
Baroness Billingham
What the noble Viscount said was absolutely in tune with our views about how important sport is across the piece and how schools must keep PE in their curriculum.
Let me turn the clock back five years to the granting of the 2012 Olympic Games to London, which has transformed the debate and the place that sport takes in our national life. The focus is intense and the scrutiny forensic. Will we ever forget the final days of the bid with Tony Blair, Seb Coe, David Beckham and Tessa Jowell at the helm? We were proud of them. We were even prouder of the schoolchildren who took centre stage in persuading the judges that ours was the best prepared and the best focused bid for the future—our children, our legacy.
We pledged to use the Games to stimulate Britain into a rejuvenated sporting nation. Let us keep that vision in our mind’s eye—those eager, excited children hearing the promise of a new sporting age. For five years, politicians kept their word. The building of the Olympic Village became hailed as an outstanding cross-party success and enterprise. How often we heard the mantra, “on time and on budget”. The promise to the children was translated into a transformation of school sport. All parties pressed ahead. We shared a vision of sport and exercise becoming a powerful weapon against the threat of obesity. Two hours per week of physical education became a standard in all state schools and the “Kelly hours” offered a prospect of extra-curricular activities before and after school, and at lunch time. Given the lack of qualified PE specialists, especially in primary schools, the school sports partnerships were formed, and the transformation has been stunning.
I shall go back to some of the other contributions to the debate. My noble friend Lord Haskel was fascinating on the benefits of cycling, and I can vouch for that. As I was walking back from my tennis club in Thorpeness, having just been thrashed yet again by Christine Truman, someone flashed past me on the Thorpeness road. Who was it but my noble friend Lord Haskel? I have witnessed him cycling at speed as he disappeared down towards the Mere in Thorpeness. He was right to tell us that cycling is a sport that we can pursue for the whole of our lifetimes. I play tennis on a daily basis and while I am much slower, by no means am I any less competitive.
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, and welcome her again to the House—we ought to get some Members’ badges. She suggested that sport must be introduced at the earliest possible age and quoted the benefits of sport to us as a nation, and as a pathway to confidence and success. I liked her theme of a childhood that lasts a lifetime. That is something I want to take away with me. My noble friend Lord Hoyle is always an active member in these debates. He reminded us of how the Olympic Games can inspire us as a nation and he praised the skilled collaborations made by the SSPs, particularly in enabling primary schools to offer a much wider range of sports. He asked if the Secretary of State had visited a school where school sports partnerships were in evidence, and if not, why not? That is a good question.
We now find ourselves in the grip of Michael Gove’s maelstrom. What has possessed him to put all the outstanding achievements of the past years in jeopardy? Surely it cannot be, as was mentioned earlier, some sort of “Gove’s vengeance” brought about by unhappy memories of his unsporting schooldays. He must know about the correlation between sport and a healthy, happier nation, for which other speakers have made the case. My noble friend Lady Jones of Whitchurch raised the issue of joined-up government and how sport and exercise are being put under threat. What liaison did Michael Gove undertake before his announcements? Critically, my noble friend also reminded us of the success of sports schools and colleges in examination results, which is a matter of fact and on the record.
I come to the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell. How fortunate we have been to hear at first hand from her the contribution that school sports partnerships have made to our sporting children. Her speech is one that I am sure we will take away to read again. It was too detailed for me to go through it now, but I certainly want to use it in the future in support of arguments reflecting the views expressed in the House today. We know about the cost to the NHS and the economy of an inactive lifestyle, and the value of introducing sport and recreation to young people. It gives them a head start for the rest of their lives. My noble friend Lady Massey is a wonderful ambassador for the organisation A Chance to Shine and shared an interesting success story that came from that project.
As a nation, we have long accepted the role of sport as a way to social inclusion. Would we rather see young people kicking a football around or kicking the back door in? For those of us lucky enough to have enjoyed sport all our lives, can we ever forget the exhilaration of acquiring sporting skills, not always at the highest level, but being part of a team or mastering individual skills in a multitude of sports that we can play all our lives? I agree with David Cameron that sport brings happiness, and that is a factor which should be measured and valued within our society.
Against all this, it is inconceivable that the Secretary of State should perform such vandalism and rob our children of their sporting right. It is unforgivable and it is divisive because only state schools will be affected. The independent schools will go on regardless, enjoying a vast range of sports in impeccable facilities with fully qualified sports staff. Are we really in this shambles together? I think not.
This has been an excellent debate and I thank everyone who has taken part. I hope that there will be a rethink—we have had a promise that the Government are going to look at this again, but I am not sure whether that is going to be fulfilled. Let us hope that the message from this Chamber, which has been very powerful in this debate, will help towards making No. 10 think again because there is overwhelming opposition to this cut from so many sources. The positive links between the health and well-being of our children and young people through their involvement in sport is well known. We must not allow their sporting legacy to be jeopardised.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, I add my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Pendry, for tabling a debate on this important subject, and I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Billingham, on a masterly winding-up speech from the Labour Benches. We have heard from a star-studded cast of speakers who have reflected both expertise and achievement in sport. We have had confirmation of the strong health benefits associated with children being active and playing more sport. These are widely accepted and relate to the physical and mental health benefits for those involved. As we know, sport reduces the risk of ill health and improves health-related quality of life; it improves life chances and focuses energy; it helps to tackle obesity and contributes to maintaining a healthy lifestyle; and, if we are being mercenary, it can generate substantial savings for the taxpayer in terms of avoiding health costs. We have heard tremendous arguments about these issues from all around the House.
In 2004, the Chief Medical Officer recommended that children and young people should participate in at least 60 minutes of moderate-intensity physical activity every day to help realise these health benefits, and we wholeheartedly support that recommendation. This is highlighted through the Change4Life campaign and remains the standard that children and young people should strive to achieve, supported by schools and their parents.
It is right to say that school sport is not in a bad position in England. There have been significant increases in the amount of organised physical activity young people undertake in recent years, and we celebrate that. I give due credit to the previous Government for the role they played in encouraging increases in the levels of activity and sporting participation among children over the past decade. I also pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Loughborough, whose dedication to and passion for sport through her stewardship of UK Sport and the Youth Sport Trust has brought many benefits to this country, in the form both of medals at the elite level and of participation in schools. She made a most valuable contribution to this debate.
Yet it is true to say that the proportion of young people taking part in wider physical activity and competitive sport, especially regular competition between schools, remains relatively low. Only one in five children participates at this level, which means that many progress through their school days lacking experience of the thrill of competition and the chance to develop their physical and social confidence through winning and losing. In short, to,
“meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same”,
by learning how to be a good winner and a good loser.
The coalition Government want to increase everyday physical activity and sport, with a particular focus on competitive sport for all. At the heart of our ambition is a traditional belief—that competitive sport, when well taught and appropriate to “age and stage”, brings out the best in everyone, be they the Olympian or Paralympian of tomorrow, or the child who wants to keep fit and have fun learning new sports and games. Competitive sport has obvious physical benefits, but can also improve mental agility, develop team-working and co-ordination, build moral character and give a sense of personal development and achievement. We heard the noble Lord, Lord Pendry, say in opening the debate that sport should be fun, a thought that was picked up by my noble friend Lord Gardiner, my noble friend Lady Benjamin with her examples of diversity and creativity in providing sports that meet the needs and skills of all children, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, who referred to the importance of variety in sport—it does not all have to be hockey or lacrosse—and of course the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, as well as other noble Lords.
The previous Government’s strategy for school sport relied on a centrally determined infrastructure within schools, and various national top-down programmes. We applaud the progress that was made under the last Government, but we are looking to do better by encouraging schools to put sport and competitive sport at the top of their agendas. As the noble Lord, Lord Addington, put it so clearly, we want to preserve what is good. My noble friend Lord Younger also clarified where some funds could be better spent.
We are proposing removing central programmes and ring-fenced funding and national targets, and in their place providing freedom of choice and putting schools in charge. The overall schools budget will increase by £3.6 billion over this spending period, with head teachers able to take their own decisions about how to spend budgets. What is clear is that head teachers can continue to work in partnership with other schools, if they wish, and where school sport partnerships have been successful we see no need why they should not remain in place. However, we believe that school communities are most likely to be successful when they have certain elements of freedom to take ownership and responsibility for what they are doing.
The noble Lords, Lord Pendry and Lord Brookman, referred to the value of the school sports partnership. The noble Lord, Lord Pendry, in his opening remarks described eloquently the many activities of the SSPs in Tameside and Manchester but, as the Secretary of State has confirmed, those partnerships can continue if that is locally determined.
We understand the concerns about removal of ring-fenced grant to schools. This is one of the difficult decisions the Government have needed to consider in managing their finances properly so that the deficit is reduced, school budgets are protected and the pupil premium for disadvantaged pupils is introduced. Of course, that pupil premium can extend to PE and to sport. Let me also be clear, however, that we fully recognise the efforts of schools, parents and coaches—including all those who worked in SSPs to increase participation—and I assure noble Lords that further discussions are ongoing on these issues. Again, I heard with great interest what the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, was saying about the importance of the co-ordinators in these activities.
We very much hope that schools will choose to invest in sport. Among the incentives will be a voluntary new Olympic and Paralympic-style competition. We are working closely with Sport England and the Olympic family to develop that competition. What is 100 per cent clear is that this is not about an elitist agenda; we do not want to see competition simplistically confined or packaged for only the most talented or sporty children. We want there to be second teams, third teams, even fourth teams and more, so that every child has the opportunity to participate in physical activity and to experience regular competitive sport against other schools and be able to benefit from all that competitive sport can bring to a young person’s development. We certainly wish to see the networks of volunteers continue to support that.
A package of locally determined events will ensure that annual school sports days are the culmination of regular competitive activity within schools; that more leagues are set up allowing regular competition between schools; that the most talented individuals and teams are given the platform to progress to county-level events; and that young elite performers have the chance to be selected to represent their schools at the first annual competition in the Olympic stadium in London 2012.
We recognise the need to attract those children not already engaged in sport, which is why over £5 million of funding is being used to set up over 3,000 after-school Change4Life sports clubs on school and further education college sites across the country, as already mentioned in this debate. These clubs will be in a range of seven Olympic and Paralympic sports, harnessing the inspiration of London 2012. This will pay for the equipment and qualified coaches helping to engage around 100,000 children aged between 13 and 19 who do not currently take part in sport, with a specific emphasis on using young volunteers to lead these sessions. All 3,000 clubs will be established by April 2011 and this complements other investment for youth sport which will strengthen links between schools and community clubs and increase the number of children participating in sport outside the curriculum and beyond the school gates, themes which have been picked up already.
We believe that the model of these clubs means that they will be sustained beyond 2011. By developing agreements and partnerships between schools, local authorities and community clubs we foresee these clubs becoming embedded within local areas, and I certainly pay tribute to the work of sportspeople who and organisations that support these. I shall briefly mention cricket later but I think also of the Lawn Tennis Association, which provides free equipment and training in schools; there are many other sports where the sportspeople and organisations voluntarily do this to encourage young people.
We need a mass shift in current activity levels, creating opportunities to change the physical and cultural landscapes to build an environment that supports people in more active lifestyles. Therefore, in addition to continuing the best elements of school sports provision and boosting competitive school sport we are enhancing the sporting infrastructure in communities across the country. As a result of our reforms to the National Lottery, for instance, we are investing £135 million in grass-roots sport through Places People Play. This was launched last month and will deliver a real legacy of sporting participation from London 2012. It includes £80 million for local and iconic facilities, with £10 million to protect playing fields, which are such key assets in this area, and £2 million for a new programme supported by the British Olympic Association and the British Paralympic Association to recruit, train and deploy 40,000 sports leaders across the country by 2013.
As well as enhancing provision we are determined to support volunteers, practitioners and clubs—the lifeblood of grass-roots sports—by removing the barriers preventing them delivering more sporting opportunities, so that they can attract and retain more people into their sport, as referred to by my noble friend Lord Addington. It is why the Minister for Sport and the Olympics has tasked the Central Council of Physical Recreation with reviewing the red tape that prevents so much good activity, and this review will complement the coalition Government’s reviews into the vetting and barring scheme, the criminal records regime and health and safety.
The public health White Paper, launched last week, set out our plans to ring-fence the public health budget so that it is used to tackle the key causes of preventable ill health, rather than being raided to solve NHS deficits, as happened once or twice under Labour. Physical inactivity is one of those preventable causes of ill health and the White Paper sets key ways of addressing this in children and young people, including updating guidelines on physical activity, the broadening of the Change4Life programme, and ongoing funding for Bikeability cycle training, which works towards every child being offered high-quality instruction on how to ride safely and confidently by the end of year 6 of school. I commend the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, for his contribution and his support for cycling; we just need to take care that he avoids colliding with the noble Baroness, Lady Billingham, as she is on her way back from the tennis courts.
At the national level we are working with all sections of society through our public health responsibility deal to drive improvements in healthy living, with a specific network to take forward new partnerships aimed at reducing inactivity. The Department for Education will shortly be in a position to announce what additional funding it will make available to support school sport in line with its new approach.
I would like to pick up some of the other points mentioned in this very wide-ranging debate. My noble friend Lord Gardiner made welcome comments on the positive impact of Fishing for Schools and the evidence that physical activity and sport can provide health benefits and engage hard-to-reach groups, including those with certain disabilities. The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, asked why the Youth Sport Trust was not consulted in the decision to cut. Throughout this debate we have heard that there are effectively three government departments involved in this: the Department for Education, the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and the Department of Health. In fact the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport has met the Youth Sport Trust on many occasions and consults the Secretary of State for Education. I understand that a meeting is shortly to take place with the Secretary of State for Education.
The Government recognise the excellent continuing work done by the school sports co-ordinators and this should, in future, be a core part of school PE teachers’ roles, so we hope it will be fundamentally incorporated within schools. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, mentioned the links with clubs and reducing red tape, which I have already referred to, and of course the role of the clubs has featured at various stages throughout this debate; their importance in generating enthusiasm and access for young people cannot be underestimated.
The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, gave an inspirational speech; she is indeed a role model in this area and enhances greatly the debates in this House on these subjects. She mentioned a variety of subjects, including linking sport to the reductions in crime. That issue has not been picked up directly, although the increase in sociability and young people feeling that they can contribute actively to society has featured in a number of speeches today. I entirely agree with her that the increase in the number of sports available in schools is a positive development. As we develop our new Olympic/Paralympic-style competition in schools, we will ensure that it includes a wide variety of school sports formats to attract all young people.
The noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, referred to the importance of ring-fencing the legacy from London 2012. The Government are firmly committed to delivering a real legacy from 2012; we are right behind that.
My noble friend Lord Younger of Leckie asked about the schools’ transition to sport. We will consider what further support can be given to help schools manage the transition to the new schools-led approach and, indeed, develop new incentives for heads to prioritise sport. The fear that heads might decide not to use the money for sport will be monitored.
In the other aspect of his input on cycling, the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, referred to its positive benefits. Indeed, the Department of Health White Paper mentions the Bikeability cycle training scheme and the £560 million local sustainable transport fund, which includes active travel and will have an impact on cycling.
My noble friend Lady Benjamin spoke on the issue of high-quality PE and sport. We will consult on this and the role of PE will feature in the forthcoming curriculum review.
The noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, asked whether Michael Gove had visited a school sport partnership. I am given to understand that he visited one prior to taking up his appointment in government; I am not aware that he has visited one since. However, I believe that the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport has been in touch with such partnerships.
The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, asked whether the Education Secretary had consulted colleagues. Discussions between Ministers within all three departments took place in advance of the announcement and I understand that the government departments for health, education and sport are in further discussions even as we speak about what further support will be made available. We expect an announcement on the legacy later this month, and certainly before Christmas. I hope that gives some reassurance to noble Lords—and obviously I expect to come back to the Dispatch Box if it does not.
The noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, referred to the progress made and to the risks of the cuts. We agree that significant progress was made under the previous Government. Of course, the decisions we have taken have been driven partly by the economic position and by our determination to put schools in charge of their own budgets.
The noble Baroness, Lady Massey, mentioned cricket and the Chance to Shine programme. Yes, it will receive £7.2 million of funding from government over 2009-13, and sport as a whole will benefit from the revisions to the lottery shares through investment into many national governing bodies of sport after the Olympics portion of the lottery budget comes to its completion in 2012.
I have a feeling that there are other points in the debate which I have not picked up. Pressure of time will not allow me to go into more detail but I shall certainly read the debate with great interest. It has been a valuable and thought-provoking debate containing some inspirational contributions. I hope noble Lords will find that the stubborn government mind has listening and problem-solving characteristics too. I know we share a common aim on all sides of the Chamber, and the coalition Government are committed to implementing the best policies to ensure the well-being of children and young people. Again, I thank most sincerely the noble Lord, Lord Pendry, for securing the debate and all noble Lords who have taken part today.
Lord Pendry
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this important debate. I think it was the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, who set the tone that was followed by so many other speakers.
The noble Lord, Lord Addington, made another powerful contribution; there would be no debate in this House on sport if he did not do so. This is not to the detriment of the Minister, but it is baffling to many of us why, with his knowledge of sport, the noble Lord does not have a place on the Front Bench.
The noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson, Lady Massey, Lady Benjamin, Lady Jones of Whitchurch and Lady Campbell, all mentioned that sport was not only about team sports. It comes in various forms, all of which are incorporated in the school sport partnership and all of which are growing.
The noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, again shone with her vast knowledge of sport and I thank her. We are also indebted to the noble Baroness, Lady Billingham, for her usual major contribution from the Front Bench.
The Minister had a difficult task—bless her—following the stance taken by the Government, but she batted very well and I am sure that they will be proud of her in the other place for doing so.
The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, ticked all the boxes that made cycling such an important sport but he missed an obvious one—the use of a bike for a particular Minister, the Secretary of State for Education. He should certainly get on a bike and pedal away from his current job. That would be the best tick of all. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Local Authority Grants: Impact of Cuts
Baroness Thornton
To call attention to the impact of cuts in grants to local authorities on the provision of social care and other public services; and to move for papers.
Baroness Thornton
My Lords, the reason why my noble friend Lord Beecham and I were keen to have this debate in your Lordships’ House was to underline the importance of considering social care and local government together in the context of what is happening and what is proposed in the NHS. That is why I am opening this debate and why my noble friend, with his reputation, knowledge and experience of local government, will close it.
We believe that joined-up thinking about social care for adults, the disabled and children is vital in the coming period, and I invite the Government to follow our example and ensure that that is what they do. I would like, for example, to see the Minister joined on these Benches by her noble friend Lord Howe in the next year or so as we debate these issues together.
Apart from anything else, it is quite clear from the way in which the rest of the world views these matters—be they individual citizens or the many organisations that support people—that it does not see social care, welfare benefits and the National Health Service as separate matters. The only way to look at what is happening on the ground is through the experience of individual citizens, and that is what I will do today. I have recruited an elderly gentleman with COPD—chronic obstructive pulmonary disease—to help me with this. It is a condition with which I am familiar, but I could as easily have chosen a younger person or someone with an illness such as stroke, a rheumatic condition or a variety of disabilities and conditions.
In the case of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, the relationship with the GP is crucial, providing, as they do, attention and monitoring, to say nothing of ensuring the supply of oxygen and the drugs that are needed. Indeed, the GP is responsible—he is the gatekeeper—for recommending rehabilitation and exercise classes that are provided at present by the PCT and will help to keep our gentleman fit. This will help him to manage his condition and thus not be admitted to the local hospital unnecessarily. He may need adaptations to his home—for example, a walk-in shower—provided by social services, and needs-assessed benefits to enable him to stay in his own home for as long as possible. He might have a personal budget at some point, to be managed as part of his care package; and he may benefit from that personalisation and choice in his services. This is a complex but perfectly manageable condition. The successful outcomes achieved, and indeed the cost-effectiveness if this person can be kept both from emergency admissions to hospital and from admittance into a care home for as many years as possible, benefit the whole of his community.
The agencies involved are the NHS, the local authority social services and the DWP, among others. I know that we need to take account of his carers, his family, his friends, his community, his church, his voluntary organisations. Indeed, we know that millions of carers are vital to these people’s well-being and health. This person may well have family to provide support, succour and comfort for him. He may have friends and neighbours who look out for him, and he may have help from organisations such as Breathe Easy and Age UK, which know what challenges he may face and what information he may need; or he may not have any of those things.
We know that there are more and more of these kinds of people living in our community with these kinds of conditions. They are living longer because of improved healthcare, and they will need more support to continue living in the community. We know that demography and improved healthcare are the drivers of the size of this issue. The figures are as follows. By 2026, the number of over-65s will have risen from 8 million to 12.5 million; and it is projected that 1.4 million more older people will have potential care needs in the next 20 years. Unless we tackle the needs of our ageing population adequately, escalating care costs will cripple our economy. In a way, they will finish off the job that the banks started.
This is an issue of which we are all too aware. We were particularly all too aware of it towards the end of the last Labour Administration. That is why we worked hard to try to get cross-party, and indeed national, discussion and agreement on how as a nation we should tackle the huge demographic challenge that we face. We did not succeed, and I am not going to try to score points today about why that happened, and about who walked from the table and why. However, the current situation makes the results and the outputs of the current Dilnot commission very important indeed, and there is an onus on the Government to try to succeed and to build a consensus on the way forward. There is a need to involve all the stakeholders—I am sorry about that word, but I could not think of another one. All the interested parties, including the opposition parties, need to be involved in this national debate as we move forward.
Returning to my example, right now we need to consider which of the different elements that will keep our elderly gentleman at home and safe are at risk in the climate of perpetual revolution in almost every one of the areas that I have mentioned. Furthermore, we need to consider what might be done about that. I shall summarise the White Papers, Bills and other measures that are being put forward by the Government at the moment, and then consider how they might impact on our fictional elderly man. We know that the NHS White Paper will abolish the PCT that takes the strategic view of the care of pulmonary conditions in his town and that the local foundation trust has been working with it because of the need to keep people out of hospital. We know that the strategic health authority employs the pulmonary specialist, and that the PCT employs the pulmonary nurse. These bodies provide the funding for the rehabilitation and exercise classes. Although these classes do not cost much money, we do not know where it will come from in two or three years’ time.
It has taken several years to get to this point of co-ordination in this local area and to get the pooled funding in place, and we know that the PCT is now addressing the preventive health implications of this work. By the way, the rehabilitation and exercise classes take place in the community centre built and supported by the local authority; this centre might also be at risk.
We know that public health will go to the local authorities in the next year or so, and we on these Benches broadly support that initiative and the ring-fenced budget. We also know that a localism Bill is about to be launched in another place very soon. As I have said, we know that the Dilnot commission is to report and will result in a White Paper next year. We know that the health Bill will be with us in the new year when it emerges from Oliver Letwin's clutches, and will be introduced in another place.
Then we have the CSR and the funding cuts for local authorities. The spending review set out real-terms reductions of 28 per cent in local authority budgets over the next four years. This compares with the overall cuts of 8.3 per cent across all government departments. Local authority core funding from the DCLG reduces from £28.5 billion in 2010 to £26.1 billion in 2011, £24.4 billion in 2012, £24.2 billion in 2013, and £22.9 billion in 2014-15.
The impact on social care is already happening. From anecdote and report, we know that some local authority social services departments are already making support available only to those who score “critical” on the social care assessments. This is rationing through eligibility criteria. Returning to our elderly man, this could mean that, because he is mobile and independent, he will not receive the funding for the shower unit in his home. The attendant risks of falls and poor hygiene go with this. He may not receive the help that he needs to keep his home clean.
This is the reality of the problems facing the provision of social care for the foreseeable future. There are those who already believe that social care is in crisis. I recommend that noble Lords look at the blogs on the Age UK website. They are most instructive if one has any doubts about the level of anxiety that there is at large. In the case of my new-found elderly friend, as good as the GP supporting him might be, it is very unlikely that his commissioning contract will allow for the level of strategic planning necessary for many long-term conditions. I would therefore be very concerned about the transition of his care pathway for the next year or so. Even if it takes a year, at best, to sort out the necessary co-ordination of support for our COPD sufferer, he may well have deteriorated in that time. I would like to think that some thought has gone into precisely this kind of care pathway issue and the risks that the proposed changes pose.
Can the Minister confirm that she and her noble friends are undertaking this kind of exercise? If they are—and I really hope they are—would she care to inform the House how the Government will help to mitigate this transition to GP fundholding, the abolition of PCTs and SHAs, the cuts in social care, the changes to welfare, housing benefit regulations, which may place extra burdens on the local authority budget, and the introduction of the public health agenda? Does she acknowledge that slowing down a bit might actually help to mitigate the transition issues and might make a huge difference to citizens of all kinds?
In the middle of these changes it is entirely possible that our friend with COPD will deteriorate significantly and require hospitalisation with the attendant costs. We know that that happens to people with long-term conditions if there is a break in their support, their exercise or the information they receive and if their housing is disrupted. Where is the mantra, “No decision about me without me”, in this paradigm?
In many ways the Government have already—if inadequately—acknowledged these pressures by setting aside £2 billion to help local councils pay for social care. Of the £2 billion, £1 billion has come from the NHS budget, and the other £1 billion will be spread over four years of the spending review. The Local Government Association estimates that the extra resources are nowhere near enough to meet the rising demand for social care. The rise in costs could be as much as £6 billion by 2014-15. How will the Government help to meet this funding gap?
In a settled state of health and social care, such additional funding would be welcome. The fact that it comes from the NHS and local government budgets would be absolutely the right way forward. However, an extra £2 billion seen in the context of a wider 28 per cent reduction in local government funding can only lead us to the conclusion that adult social care will still face a serious challenge in funding because of increased demand.
However, cash alone is not the answer. Adult care and support goes way beyond the Department of Health and is bigger than council social services. We know that it must be linked to other council services, public sector partners, voluntary and community organisations and individuals. There needs to be an increasing emphasis on offering personalised solutions, giving individuals control of their funding and how it is spent. Councils have been striving to do that, and that approach is even more important.
However, and I looked at this with interest, I read on the ConservativeHome website a contribution from a member of the Conservatives’ flagship authority, Hammersmith and Fulham Council, urging 100 cuts in council services and demanding that there be cuts in care to looked-after children, that staff spending on older people and the disabled be reduced, and that youth services be slashed. I am sure that my noble friend Lord Beecham will have something to say about that. Hammersmith and Fulham is a case in point; not content to wait and see whether the big society can step in and look after the disabled or the young or the under-fives, it is in fact already closing down these facilities willy-nilly. I would like the Minister’s view on that website and on those 100 proposed cuts.
These cuts are too deep and too quick, and they are putting front-line services at risk. Combined with the proposals for the NHS, this is a time of great risk for those in the greatest need and with the greatest vulnerability in our communities. We have interesting times ahead, in the Chinese sense.
I apologise for not having gone into some detail about children’s services or indeed services for the disabled. I also regret that the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, is not with us today and that we did not talk about portability. These are all serious issues, and I am sure they will be covered in this debate by other noble Lords. I close by thanking my imaginary elderly friend for his help in trying to explain what I think may lie ahead, and I look forward to the contributions from noble Lords who will speak today and from the Minister in answering this debate. I beg to move.
Lord Bates
My Lords, it is a privilege to speak in this debate and to follow the noble Baroness, who has presented a reasoned case and some interesting ways of looking at the issues that we face on personal care.
The noble Baroness mentioned the sums and the budgets being cut too quickly and too deeply. There are many Members of this House who are extremely well placed to speak on the important matters of personal care, but it may be helpful if I place this debate in some kind of context. It is not the case that the Government somehow arrive at the Dispatch Box and dream up that the budgets ought to be cut by 28 per cent in real terms over four years. There is a context to it. We inherited the worst budget deficit in the G20, while overall government borrowing had increased by £400 billion over the past few years and continues to rise. The total debt that needed to be serviced is costing £120 million per day. There was significant unease on the international financial markets about the state of the public finances and we were on the verge of being downgraded by the rating agencies, which would have sent interest rates soaring, as we have seen in Ireland, and would have hit millions of homeowners and businesses. That is why we have proposed to get the deficit under control over the next four years.
In fairness to the party opposite, it too had recognised that this was a major problem. That is why, before the election, while it was still in government, it proposed £52 billion of cuts, but it kept us guessing as to where those would fall. Interestingly, though, the Pre-Budget Report showed that the cuts would be front-end-loaded, with £14 billion of cuts falling in 2011-12.
There is a second point of context that flows out of that, and it needs to be made. Once you decide that you need to reduce overall spending and the case is made—I think that that is generally agreed—you then need to ask: where are you going to apply the cuts? The answer for this Government, which I totally support, was that they wanted to protect spending on health, welfare and school budgets, as well as, importantly, to increase the overseas aid budget. Again in fairness to the party opposite, it too had said that it wanted to protect health and schools budgets and maintain overseas aid spending.
My point is that if you agree that there is a problem at a macro level, which both sides agreed on, and you agree that there is a need to make substantial cuts—whether that is £52 billion, £65 billion or £72 billion is a matter for debate—then you need to decide that the axe has to fall somewhere. Someone needs to feel the pain. There is no painless alternative to this. So the Government are proposing to reduce resources spending to local government by 28 per cent in real terms. As someone who is proud to be a vice-president of the Local Government Association, I do not underestimate for one second the pain that that will cause in town halls up and down the country, but again that needs to be set in context. Indeed, if you were to take even the most generous estimates of what the effect would have been of a cut in the overall budget of £52 billion while ring-fencing those important areas that we have talked about, had the Opposition been in power, then the figure probably would have been not 28 per cent but between 20 per cent and 25 per cent. It is worth placing on record that that is the context in which we are having this debate.
Because of those realities, it is also not true that the reality of the spending settlement and the expected reductions in local government grants by 28 per cent somehow came as a shock. It has been forecast over the past two years at least, and many local authorities have already been preparing for that and making adjustments in their spending.
What the Government are proposing is not so much an exercise in arithmetic, of trying to make the budget balance. Rather, they are trying to reinvent the whole way in which we deliver services at a local government level, and that involves a massive devolution of power to local communities and to individuals. Some of the examples that were given there about personal care fit very much into the whole area of Total Place, of place-based spending. Rather than having multiple bodies all spending money, organising and operating in the same places, it is right to bring them together, introducing efficiencies and improving the service at the same time. The previous Government started that process, albeit 12 years into their 13 years, and this Government are saying, “Listen, we want to build upon that”.
We have also said that there are too many silos of funds from which people have to draw. The Government have proposed that in 2011-12 they free up some £7 billion of currently ring-fenced funding. Seeing the number of grants that need to be applied for reduced from 90 to 10 will mean a massive increase in power for local authorities and local communities. It will also mean a massive reduction in bureaucracy.
The same applies to other targets that were there—for example, the comprehensive performance assessment regime and the corporate governance inspection regime, which would issue hundreds of targets that local government had to follow and track down. My favourite target was the one that required local authorities to count how many park benches had arms on them. For some reason, that was important to Whitehall. We are saying, “Listen, this is ridiculous”. We want local government to concentrate on what it does best, which is delivering high quality local services. What has been proposed by this Government, while we recognise that it is tough, is an opportunity to reinvent the way that local services are delivered in our communities so that all will benefit.
Baroness Sherlock
My Lords, I am hugely tempted to take on the noble Lord, Lord Bates, and discuss the role of the global economy in the position in which we now find ourselves. I will resist that temptation. Perhaps we may do so over a drink at some point; I shall look forward to that.
Instead, disappointingly, I shall restrict my comments to the impact of cuts in local government funding on social care. My noble friend Lady Thornton has set out the context very clearly. I will focus specifically on the effect of the decision to front-load these cuts. The Government have made a choice to do that, and they must take responsibility for the consequences.
Within children’s services, the effect is that councils are increasingly going to focus only on delivering those services which statutorily they must. What will that mean in practice? In children’s services, it will mean focusing on child protection and meeting their obligations to looked-after children. That will be tough enough, but what about other services? Councils may wish to invest in family support services for children at risk but they have to make cuts fast. The risks of not investing in those services are obvious, but when cuts must be made now it is very difficult to choose to do that.
The risks of not investing in things like that are fairly obvious. There must be a danger that children will end up in care in future years who could have been diverted from that pathway had funds been made available for preventive services at an early stage. As well as it being a false economy, many Members of this House will be aware of the outcomes for children in care. The price that will be paid is considerable for some vulnerable young people.
Those noble Lords who attended the last meeting of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Children, as I did, will have heard a moving story from a charity called Family Action about a Building Bridges project, which supports families whose parents are using mental health services and where the children are at risk or on the register, and maybe there are school attendance problems. One of the independent evaluations of this service showed that it works, and that the small cost of £3,500 saves local authorities more than £100,000 over two years. A similar story comes from Action for Children, another big children’s charity, whose East Dunbartonshire Family Service was evaluated as saving the state £2.64 for every £1 spent on preventing children going into care. However, these and many other services are at risk.
I am sure that many noble Lords have heard, as I have, repeated accounts of non-statutory services under threat, and that play provision is under threat all over the country, even though those kinds of services are mostly used by the most vulnerable families. I hear that most councils are now saying that they will not fund any mainstream youth work anymore. That is really significant. While I am grateful that the voluntary sector and the church, which provides much of the youth work in this country, will carry on doing that, it does not seem right that the state should be withdrawing from mainstream youth work. I hear from charities of cuts in provision for disabled children and of eye-watering cuts being considered in fostering and adoption. The potential damage is serious.
The noble Lord, Lord Bates, makes a serious point. Is it inevitable, or is it just special pleading? It is not inevitable. What these stories highlight is the need to give local authorities the breathing space to evaluate their cost drivers and to consider the impact of cuts, not just cut the things in front of them when they can do so immediately. I have talked recently to the senior officer of one authority, who had begun planning well ahead, as the noble Lord, Lord Bates, urged. In fact, the authority would not have cut things fast enough, even though it would have reshaped services, been more efficient and cut real costs and not simply spending. It now has to abandon all of that and move to immediate cuts to meet this timetable.
Briefly, on the impact on adult social care, I have always been concerned that when we talk about the importance of the freedom of councils to choose how to spend their money, we do not delude ourselves as to what choice they have in practice. Adult social care is, I understand, the single biggest discretionary area of spending by councils on services they deliver. If they have to cut back so quickly on the scale that we are discussing, they have no choice but to cut back on adult social care.
My noble friend Lady Thornton mentioned the raising of thresholds. That is an obvious thing to do. I read in Community Care magazine last week that Birmingham Council is becoming the first in the country to restrict formal council-funded care to people with critical personal needs. That is a very high threshold, as anyone who has worked in this field will understand. There is a real danger that the only people who will get any adult social care provided by their council are those with severe, multiple, complex conditions. Everybody else will be left to find it and fund it themselves. That is not a space we want to be in.
Finally, I will say a word about carers. My noble friend Lady Pitkeathley, who, as noble Lords will know, has been a long-time champion of carers, regrets that she cannot be here for the debate today. In her absence, however, I want to flag up the important contribution made by 6 million carers who save our country some £87 billion a year. Any future approach to social care needs to ensure that carers carry on being supported. I hope that the Commission for Social Care Inspection will make the contribution of carers an important part of its recommendations. I also urge the Government to look quickly at reviewing financial support for carers, including how future funding for respite care can be provided in the absence of ring-fencing.
What is to be done? Since spending on social care is such a big slice of local government spending, we are now seeing a disproportionate amount of the cuts in spending generally being carried by local government. Inevitably, a disproportionate chunk of that will be borne by social care. That means that vulnerable people who use social care services are picking up an unfair and disproportionate degree of the pain of the Government’s deficit reduction strategy. We need to look carefully at which individuals will actually be paying the price for those. They are those who use children’s services, those who use adult social services, children who are in need and children who live in care. These are some of the most vulnerable people in our society.
I am not simply asking for special pleading. I ask the Minister to do two things. First, will she please urge her colleagues to rethink the timescales and consider giving local authorities the space to be able to plan these steps more carefully? Secondly, will she please tell the House today what steps the Government can take to protect the investment in early intervention services of the kind I have described, much of it delivered by voluntary organisations, much of it successful, much of it saving the state money and much of it protecting lives? I urge her not simply to talk about spending on early intervention, since that will not be ring-fenced and will simply come out of the same pot. How does the Government’s strategy for ensuring that local services are delivered enable us to be confident that early intervention services for some of the most vulnerable people can be protected?
Lord Tope
My Lords, I declare an interest as both a councillor and a member of the executive in the London Borough of Sutton, which is now celebrating its 25th year of continuous Liberal Democrat administration.
The following is more a confession than a declaration. When I was first elected as a councillor, back in 1974, the then Conservative leader in local government, who happened also to be a Sutton councillor, said to me, “There are really only two parties. One is the local government party; the other is the central government party”. For the past 36 years, I have clearly been firmly in the local government party. Then, slightly to my surprise, I now find myself closely associated with the central government party as well. Some might say that that is a challenge, but I intend to regard it as an opportunity.
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, for this debate, and for the way in which she introduced it. Normally, we should congratulate her at this stage. I feel more inclined to commiserate with her. I am sure she understandably expected, when she tabled this debate, that by now we would know what the provisional grant settlement was going to be, and probably have before us the long-awaited, much heralded decentralisation and localism Bill. Instead, the Bill is at the printers and we will have it tomorrow, not today. The settlement is clearly settled but, for reasons in another place, we will not actually know how it is settled until next Monday. That is a little unfortunate.
In the few minutes I have, I will concentrate not on speculating about what we might find out on Monday, or what we might discover in the Bill that we have not already heard about, but, rather, on the things that we do know. Those of us in local government and, I am sure, elsewhere, have known for a long time that the coming years were going to be very difficult regardless of who had won the general election. Sometimes that is forgotten. Many local authorities, certainly my own, were planning well before the general election for hard times to come, even if we were not able to quantify them. Before the election, my own authority set up what we are calling the smarter services Sutton review, to review all our services with a view not simply to slashing budgets but to transforming services and looking at what we do, how we do it, with whom we do it, and what we need no longer do because it is neither possible nor appropriate. All of that was known. Sensible local authorities of all political persuasions will have been planning for it. What was not expected was the extent to which the CSR would be front-loaded, with by far the heaviest cuts coming in the first two years.
I know that there is no way that that will now change. It is well beyond the powers not just of the Minister but of the department that she represents. That is a given, whether we like it or not. However, I plead that the Government look at the effects of that in trying to achieve what I hope we all want to achieve— not simply a slashing of budgets but radical reform, coupled with the new freedoms that local government will get but will not have in the years when the greatest cuts are before us.
It is always difficult. Some local authorities may be in the now fortunate position of having sufficient reserves to enable them to ease the burden and produce both the savings and reformation over a period of time. However, local authorities in that position are few and far between and, frankly, until now, have been subject to much criticism for having overly large reserves. Most local authorities, including my own, have long since lost what anyone would consider superfluous reserves and are not in the position to be able to use such funding to ease the burden of the cuts. My plea to Government, and to the DCLG in particular, is to continue to explore ways of working with local government so that we can phase the introduction of these cuts over two or perhaps three years to achieve the same result in the end that the Government want to achieve but being able to do so by truly transforming services and not simply slashing budgets, which I fear is what might happen.
The particular focus of this debate is social care and that has been very well described. My noble friends on this Bench will concentrate on it. The additional funding for social care is very welcome. I am pleased to see it not least because it is being introduced by a Minister who was once my deputy leader on Sutton council. There is a real danger that that additional funding—welcome though it is—will be more than overtaken by the cuts that local government have to make. Now that local authorities are no longer directly responsible for schools funding, for those authorities with this responsibility, adult social services make up by far the largest part of the budget. It is inconceivable that local authorities will be able to make the savings that they will have to make and reform the services in the way that they have to without being able to avoid adversely affecting adult social services. We want to avoid losing all the very welcome benefits that come from the additional social care funding because of the actions that are taken.
More immediate is the very real threat to voluntary sector funding. It is a great temptation—which I very much hope that all local authorities will resist—to make quick and, to some, apparently easy savings by cutting grants to the voluntary sector. Some would suggest that, in the past, central government have sometimes done that to local government. However, in my new role I would not dream of suggesting any such thing.
I hope that the Government will now look at how they can work with local government to try to ease the passage of this so that what lies before us is not simply seen as a threat to local government services. It would be idle to pretend that there are no threats to local government services—of course there are. However, there is a very real opportunity for the local government party and the central government party to work together to use this opportunity to transform the services that we provide.
Lord Low of Dalston
My Lords, in his letter to local authorities, following the comprehensive spending review, the director-general of social care at the Department of Health wrote that local authorities had,
“enough funding available both to protect people's access to services and deliver new approaches to improve quality and outcomes”.
The additional £2 billion that the Government were putting into social care by 2014-15 would, he said,
“make it possible to protect people’s access to care, without tightening eligibility”.
He even went so far as to say that this is a highly positive settlement for social care, providing sufficient resources to protect people’s access to care and avoiding further restrictions to services. But at other points, he had the grace to admit that the settlement would be challenging. Perhaps one can be forgiven for thinking that this was nearer the mark.
There are some things to welcome. The £1 billion of extra funding coming from the health service should help to speed up the integration of health and social services at the local level, which seems to have taken for ever. Up to £300 million of this can be spent each year on reablement to help avoid the need for social care. The disabled facilities grant is to be protected, though it will no longer be ring-fenced, so what will happen to it is anybody’s guess. The challenging settlement should stimulate innovation in the delivery of services.
The negative side of the ledger is even more compelling. The CSR has treated local government particularly harshly. Central government funding of local authorities, as we have heard, is to decrease by 28 per cent in real terms over the next four years, down from £28.5 billion in 2010-11 to £22.9 billion in 2014-15, a reduction of £5.6 billion. This compares with cuts of 8.3 per cent across departmental budgets generally. This helps to put the extra £2 billion for social care into context. Cuts to housing, family support, transport and leisure will all have a wider impact on the care and support environment. The settlement presupposes efficiency savings of 3 per cent a year, but in adult social care alone, savings totalling nearly a billion pounds have been made over the past three years already, while eligibility thresholds have remained relatively unchanged.
In these circumstances the Local Government Association puts it mildly when it says that the front-loading of the funding reduction, coupled with the fact that adult social care has important links to other council services such as housing, leisure and transport means care and support faces a period of real challenge. This is all against a background in which social care is pretty much in crisis already. While expenditure on adult social care has increased over the past decade, it has not seen anything like the increase seen in health and education. This has led to a situation in which social services are falling further and further behind. An ageing population means that pressure on services can only get worse. A survey in community care recently showed that two-thirds of councils were already only providing social care to people in either critical or substantial need. It found that this figure would be 80 per cent by next year and that people are already predicting that future cuts would lead to many councils raising their thresholds to critical only.
As for the additional £2 billion, there are concerns about whether all of this will find its way to social care. The sums to be channelled via the NHS should get through as long as they are clearly identifiable locally and are the subject of specific local agreement. The other £1 billion is another matter. This half of the new social care funding is not ring-fenced. It is not difficult to imagine hard-pressed councillors and chief executives diverting it to help plug the gap in other equally cash-strapped areas.
Your Lordships would not expect me to close without saying something about the situation of blind and partially sighted people, who graphically illustrate the condition of social care provision today. Unless they have other disabilities, people living with sight loss are unlikely to receive much—if anything at all—in the way of help because their needs are likely to be assessed as only moderate or low. I invite your Lordships to pause and think about that for a moment because it has always struck me as absolutely extraordinary. It means that many people simply lose their independence for want of the appropriate rehabilitation and support.
The Department of Health stresses the importance of personalised support. Almost everybody agrees about that but personalised support which you cannot access because you do not meet the criteria of eligibility for help is no support at all. A fully personalised social care system can perfectly well continue to exclude from eligibility most blind and partially sighted people. In the context of personalisation, I should also like to say a word about the question of choice. There is evidence from the individual budget evaluation research that elderly people in particular were often worried that direct payments would impose unwanted burdens on them where their right to choose had not been properly explained. The Department of Health’s policy, as reflected in its vision statement, now seems to have changed to saying that personal budgets should preferably be delivered as direct payments. These positions are not necessarily incompatible. It would be possible for local authorities to express a preference for direct payments while still offering personal budget recipients a genuine choice, but it is easy to see how inappropriate pressure might develop, especially if it transpires that local authorities can make significant staff savings via direct payments.
The Government believe their social care settlement to be adequate. We shall see. However, it is absolutely essential to monitor what happens closely. I strongly urge the Government to be prepared to take corrective action if familiar problems of adequacy and access persist or, indeed, get worse.
The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds
My Lords, I, too, am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, for enabling us to discuss this major concern about the direction that spending cuts will take within the policies of our local authorities. I want to concentrate on the effect that they have on partnership between those authorities and the voluntary sector, to which the noble Lord, Lord Tope, referred. As a former resident of the borough of Sutton, I was grateful to hear the insights into the policies of that borough. I hope that the St Helier estate, on which I used to work, will not be disadvantaged by any of those policies.
The partnership between local authorities and the voluntary sector has been set up with much patience over many years. I should like the Minister to address ways in which that can be preserved and defended in a culture where ring-fencing is removed but cuts are compulsory. That double whammy is what is causing such a sense of threat to those in the voluntary sector who are concerned with social care. The removal of ring-fencing advocated by the noble Lord, Lord Bates, would often be very much welcomed as placing responsibility for local activity locally, which is where it belongs. The difficulties arise where that occurs in the context of substantial cuts. The unintended threat to social care provided through the voluntary sector then becomes substantial.
St Luke’s CARES is a church-sponsored community provider in south Leeds that has worked with the local authority over the years to provide caring services, including—but not only—services for young people. There is a real need to build up community relationships in the areas where the charity works, including in multi-ethnic areas such as Holbeck and Beeston, where there has been a determination to rebuild trust—not least following the links of that area with the 7/7 bombings, of which we have been so painfully reminded over the past few weeks. Those who use the services of St Luke’s CARES fear for the future of its work, not because of ill will on the part of the local authority but because painful choices need to be made.
Noble Lords have spoken of the danger that those organisations that contribute to the whole of the working of society, or of a particular area within society, tend to be ignored because of a right emphasis on the most critical cases. Leeds is among the local authorities with the largest percentage cut in grant, according to the Department for Communities and Local Government figures—more than 7 per cent in year one. My fear is that, because of the attempt rightly to maintain direct services to the community, the partnerships that in Leeds form so vibrant a potential part of our society will be squeezed, with the result that, almost inevitably, those who are most deprived will suffer most. I think of the Belle Isle estate in Leeds, which has a flourishing family centre that provides a one-stop shop for social care for many local people in the area. The danger is that not only will such resources for people be withdrawn but the building into which both voluntary and local authority funding has gone will be underused and wasted.
In the context of partnership, I highlight the threat to services for children and young people. Local authorities have an impressive record in working with the voluntary sector to provide for the needs of many in disadvantaged areas who might not otherwise receive the encouragement that they need. I have read with interest the report of the debate in your Lordships' House last week on philanthropy, initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, in which a warning was given—not least in the speech of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle—that philanthropy cannot replace the work of local authorities. Although philanthropy is extremely welcome, and often extremely generous, its effect on the issues that we face can often be erratic. National organisations such as Barnardo’s or the Children’s Society are fearful simply because much of their work is crucial to the lives of young people but does not hit the headlines or always attract public sympathy. The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, spoke powerfully of the ways in which so much of that work with deprived young people who are not at school or are in contact with the criminal justice system will tend to be ignored in that situation. Many who work for the national voluntary organisations fear not just for their jobs but for that careful, painstaking work that has been built up over the years.
I welcome the aim of greater collaboration between voluntary and statutory organisations, which is an important part of the coalition Government’s proposals. We will the ends; we must also will the means. Local authority services, many of which are delivered by such partnerships, are among the most precious contributions to society. I hope that the Minister will affirm the continuing need for cuts to be borne by those most able to bear them, and not by those who already suffer in our society.
Lord Lipsey
My Lords, I shall confine my remarks to what I might regard as my special subject, which is social care of the elderly. As a society, we have walked into a black hole. The black hole was originally caused essentially by demographics—the increasing number of elderly people—and by the fact that older people are not living in good health for longer, as the period of ill health at the end of life is at best constant and is perhaps getting worse.
The symptoms of the black hole into which we have walked—the black hole being the gap between service provision and need—are legion. The symptoms include, for example, the virtual elimination of local authority help for those with moderate or medium care needs simply in order that local authorities can keep those with the greatest care needs going. The symptoms are also to be found in the patchy and often very low standards of residential care at home. I hear tales of carers turning up hours late, with breakfast being served at lunchtime or lunch being served at breakfast time—a very fine “Panorama” programme exposed some of that—often because flexible services that meet people’s needs cannot be provided as cheaply as a service in which people rush around doing what they can when they can fit it in.
Another symptom can be found in the appallingly low wages paid to people who work in the social care sector, which unfortunately means that people do not have the right incentives to improve their skills. Another can be found in the state of residential homes that have a large number of local authority clients because of the continual downward pressure on the fees that local authorities will pay for people in those homes—often made up, incidentally, by charging more for people who have to pay for themselves.
In one part of the kingdom—in Scotland—the Scottish Government have decided to dig that hole very much deeper by providing free care to everybody. The result is that the real cost of care has doubled in real terms in five years. The governing party in Scotland has decided not to say what it will to do about that until after the next Scottish elections, because the policy will have to be abandoned.
One consequence of that black hole is that our old people are suffering—I use that word advisedly—at a time of their life when their suffering should be minimised. Another consequence—I know that the Treasury is the only department that matters in many of these things—is that we will incur far greater costs in future. The long-term result of not providing low-level care to people to enable to them to stay in their homes will be that they will stagger on until the moment at which, at much greater cost, they have to be admitted to residential care, where they will need to remain at huge public expense for the remainder of their lives. That is not only a bad policy for older people but a short-sighted policy on the part of Government.
Faced with that black hole, the Government produced an extra £2 billion for social care in the comprehensive spending review. Anything extra is not unwelcome in the present situation, but I have the gravest reservations about whether that extra money will mean much, given that £1 billion of it is to come from the National Health Service. I hope that that will come about, but I have noticed, for example, that consultant surgeons are terribly good at explaining why they need the money to do operations tomorrow and why money cannot be made available for social care that might stretch months into the future. Money does not always end up where it is intended, particularly given that we will have a frozen NHS budget in the years ahead. The scramble for cash and the use of the power of individuals and institutions within the health service to get cash will be most intense. Who will ensure that social services get their £1 billion share?
As for the extra money for local authorities, that is smoke and mirrors. The Government say that they will slash local government expenditure to a degree unimaginable in previous experience. They aim to do that because they can see easily that they cannot cut their expenditure, so they look to somebody else to make the cuts. Their chosen victims are local authorities, which to my mind have been amazingly calm in the circumstances. Given this great slashing, although the Government say that there will be an extra £1 billion, there will not be an extra £1 billion at all. Instead, the social services budget will be slashed by £1 billion less than would have been the case. That really is, I would almost say, Gordon Brown arithmetic at its worst—although I would not like to offend my own side in any way. None of us can tell whether an extra £1 billion is being given to local government for social care, because none of us knows what would have been given to local government without the apparent extra £1 billion. That is smoke and mirrors.
My third point, which has already been raised by the noble Lord, Lord Low, concerns the letter from David Behan, who is the director-general of social care. David Behan is a very good man who cares deeply about these things—so I do not know whether he drafted the letter—but, honestly, to describe the settlement as highly positive is really to bend words. What should we regard as slightly negative? Would spending need to be eliminated altogether and our old people thrown onto the streets to fare as best they could? I think that a little more honesty would have been genuinely welcome. Another feature of his letter that I want to highlight is the suggestion that significant efficiency savings would be needed. It is not easy to make efficiency savings in social services, because you cannot bathe people more quickly, hoist them more quickly or force food into their mouths more quickly without spoiling those services. To a very large extent, significant efficiency savings cannot be made in social care services, so the effect—unless the Government have a change of heart—on our services over the years to come will be quite frightful.
Baroness Barker
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, for the elegant way in which she introduced this debate on a subject that, as she and the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, know, is one that I care about quite a lot. I also declare an interest as the owner of a consultancy that works with voluntary organisations called Third Sector Business.
Let us not forget that the system of social care was unsustainable and in need of radical reform back in the 1980s, when Mrs Thatcher appointed Sir Roy Griffiths to produce Community Care: Agenda for Action. It was unsustainable and in need of radical reform when, in 1997, Tony Blair appointed, among others, the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, to produce their report on long-term care, which was then studiously ignored by the Labour Government for the 13 years that they were in office. Here we are now, at the point where our system of social care is unsustainable, not working and unaffordable. We are having to address those questions not, as the Labour Government were, with a significant amount of cash to throw at it, but in the most difficult of economic circumstances. That is the backdrop of events as discussions are going on. That is why the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, is again wrong—against that backdrop, an extra £1 billion is actually something to be very pleased about.
I want to explain the perfect storm that is enveloping local organisations. At the moment they are dealing with the imposition of the 2010 tendering regulations, which means that there is a huge change in the way in which their services are bought and commissioned by local authorities. The personalisation agenda, which the noble Lord, Lord Low, spoke about, is being rolled out. It is a model of commissioning services that was developed largely for adults with disabilities, people who for the most part have conditions that do not change. It is being rolled out to a far greater number of older people, most of whom need care at a point of crisis, and whose needs change quite a lot and substantially. It is being carried out at a time when the three big clients that those organisations have had are either disappearing or are changing completely. Most of those organisations were funded either by their local authorities or by PCTs, and they are having, in a very short space of time, to completely change what they do and how they do it. Most of them are not big administrative organisations that can suddenly summon in an awful lot of help from major international companies and get them to come in and sort out their systems. They are very small organisations that are having to change very, very quickly.
The NHS is changing too. It is not uncommon for local organisations to carry out their business with partners in the NHS and local authorities where there have been no permanent senior managers making decisions for the past three years. It is extraordinarily difficult to come to any conclusion about what you should do strategically in that situation.
It is also not that simple to bring about change as quickly in voluntary organisations as it is in others. In a commercial company, if your economic outlook is bleak, you simply get out your accounts and forecasts and you study them to determine what you will do. In a voluntary organisation, you have to start from the point of saying to people who you have never charged for services that their services are going to have to be charged for. You have to go through a period of angst with people before you can get them to the point where they can begin to look at what will be a sustainable future. Behind that, local authorities are also beginning to get to grips with new ways of accounting, some of which are very good. The Total Neighbourhood and Total Place accounting systems are extremely good, but are very new.
In the midst of all that, there are organisations that are seeking to continue what they do now, much of which is unfunded but immensely valuable, and trying to make sense of a system in which they can, on a sustainable basis, meet the needs of a growing population—a population which has needs that we are all aware of. The number of people with dementia is set to increase exponentially.
It is against that backdrop that I want to ask the Government, who are right to have a radical approach to social care, whether they will do three things. First, will they give us more detail about the transformation fund? It is way too small. I am not clear on whether the fund will be available for only a year, but I suggest to the Minister that it needs to be available for two years, if it is to be effective. Will the Government specify what the fund is intended to do? Secondly, will the Government look at the capacity and willingness of GPs to commission social care? That will be an extremely important point for the future. I have not yet seen evidence of GPs being familiar with how one commissions social care services and refers people to services which have to be paid for. Many GPs refer people to services, but those services are usually free, and I doubt that that will happen.
Thirdly, will the Government look in particular at the one service—hospital discharge—in which there ought by now to be sound joint working? There is none. We have never had a model of hospital discharge which works properly for the NHS, properly for social services departments which want to do well by people, and, above all, properly for people who are coming out of acute care and who may need longer-term care. If we can do that at a time when the NHS will be judged by a new quality-and-outcomes framework, which does not just reward acute hospitals for the number of high-tech operations they perform but rewards them for the health outcomes that they achieve for a population, we will then be in a position to start to build a system of social care which is sustainable and meets long-term needs.
Baroness Hollins
My Lords, perhaps I may first say how much I welcome this debate, and I have listened with great interest to the contributions.
In June, the Government stated their commitment to creating fairness in society, and dignity and respect for disabled people. It is against this backdrop that we are participating in today’s debate. We have already heard about the extent of the savings required by the comprehensive spending review, and I will not repeat them. However, there is no doubt that even with efficiency gains and other savings, cuts of this magnitude and over this timescale will pose a significant challenge to many of the services used by disabled people.
For too long, social care services have been the Cinderella of local government—underfunded, under-resourced and under-valued; and the important role that social care can play in helping to transform peoples’ lives is too often misunderstood. Many people who are disabled rely on social care services to live their lives and gain some independence. It might be a few hours’ help for them to go shopping, assistance in the home to help with domestic tasks such as cleaning, or even support in going to the cinema. All these examples and more demonstrate the importance of delivering effective social care and the huge difference that it can make to the quality of individual lives. Crucially, this support often allows disabled people to access other services such as education, health and transport.
I must disclose an interest here, because two of my adult children are disabled people who are in receipt of social care.
The pressures on social care services have not suddenly developed as a direct consequence of the CSR; if only that were the case. For many years now, local authorities have wrestled with increasing demands on their services, partly, as we have heard, as a consequence of demographic change and an increasingly elderly population. Local authorities have already rationed resources in an attempt to manage a range of competing demands.
There are 1.5 million people in the United Kingdom with a learning disability and I will focus my remaining remarks on their needs, to illustrate how one group of disabled people and their families may be put at risk by the proposed spending cuts. With respect to demographic change, we know that there are about 170,000 people with a learning disability who live with parents or carers who are over 70. As time goes on, both they and their carers will need support from social services in order to live their lives with dignity and respect. In addition to a high number of older carers, the number of people with complex needs is also increasing; and this combined with longer life expectancy means that demand for social care services is increasing and will be needed for longer. The number of people with a learning disability who need services has also been increasing by between 3.5 per cent and 5 per cent per year—much faster than anticipated.
These challenges and others have led councils to tighten their eligibility criteria to make a greater use of charging, and to reduce services. In recent years, most local authorities of all political persuasions and none have decided to reduce the services they provide to only those with “critical” or “substantial” needs, in an attempt to balance the books. Following the latest pressures on resources, those few local authorities which still provide social care services to those regarded as having only “moderate” needs are in the process of consultation about removing the remaining services.
It is in response to long-standing pressures on the social care system that the Learning Disability Coalition, or LDC, was established in 2007 in an attempt to address these concerns and to lobby the Government for change. My noble friend Lord Rix, who cannot be here today, would want to speak about the LDC as president of Mencap, because the LDC is a coalition of 14 member organisations such as Mencap, People First and Turning Point, and was set up to make the case for better social care services. The LDC argues that people with a learning disability are entitled to have the same choices and life chances as everyone else, as indeed is laid out in the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. However, in order to make these choices, we need a social care system that is fit for purpose and helps to empower people.
It is for this reason that I welcomed the announcement in the CSR that an additional £2 billion would be allocated for social care over the next four years, some being to support joint work between health and social care. However, as part of the coalition Government’s commitment to localism, we know that the additional funds to local authorities will not be ring-fenced. What guarantees will we have that GP consortia will spend the additional NHS funds as intended? There are no guarantees that the extra money will end up being spent as the Government intend it should be. What sanctions will the Government have if GP consortia do not do so?
Recent evidence from the King’s Fund shows that an increase in spending on social care for a person actually decreases the amount which needs to be spent on their healthcare. Short-term cuts in social care today can lead to long-term consequences tomorrow.
Failure to provide support to people with a learning disability can increase the risk of social exclusion and offending behaviour, and can lead to health problems, particularly mental illness. This can lead to expensive acute intervention when a person reaches crisis point. Sadly, some specialist psychological help that is available to other citizens, for example through the improving access to psychological therapy programme, is not being made routinely available to people with learning disabilities, and thus the stitch in time that might be expected to ameliorate relationship and lifestyle difficulties is not provided for them.
The personalisation approach is to be welcomed, but there are more challenges inherent in implementing it for this group. People with a learning disability are some of the most vulnerable in society, and are less able to advocate for themselves to ensure the fairness that this Government are committed to achieving. Does the Minister agree that whatever reductions in social care budgets are made in the future, people with learning disabilities must not be made to bear an unfair share of the cuts?
Baroness Wilkins
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Thornton for securing the debate, and with it the opportunity to highlight the consequences of cuts in local authority funding for disabled people's essential support services. As other noble Lords have mentioned, there was a glimmer of light amid the cuts announced in the comprehensive spending review; namely, the extra funding for social care. However, as we have heard, we soon realised that the amount would be barely enough to sustain the current levels of spending, let alone to keep up with the increasing numbers of older people who require care and support to keep them going. It was even more worrying when it was made plain that the money would not be ring-fenced.
As we have heard, the Local Government Association has warned of a multimillion-pound shortfall in its adult social care budget. What safeguards will the coalition Government put in place to ensure that the money goes to the people for whom it is intended and does not disappear into the local authority budget? The fear is not unfounded, as local authorities can take their resources into account when determining the needs of a disabled person. As a result, in many places only the most profoundly disabled people qualify for help, which is means-tested.
There are other perverse consequences of the Government's measures. One of the most glaring is the removal of the DLA mobility component from people who live in state-funded residential care. It will cost local authorities money once their mobility needs are assessed. The money must come from the social care budget, so the council will have to further tighten the eligibility criteria, leaving more disabled and older people to fend for themselves, draining their means and exhausting their family members. Did the Government take this into account when they decided to remove the DLA mobility component? The decision was based on wrong assumptions, and it is telling that disabled people were not involved in making it.
Another measure is the closure of the ILF to new applicants, with the resulting expectation that local authorities will take up the slack. In practice, local authorities are prepared to fund their part of a care package, which would have been matched with ILF funding, but they are not prepared to increase it to take account of the closure of the ILF to new applicants. For example, a disabled man in his 30s living in Buckinghamshire would have received a care package of around £600 a week had the ILF still been open to new applications. Buckinghamshire County Council has decided that it is unable to increase its funding beyond £340 a week—a long way short of what the man would have received with ILF as well. As a result, he now has to manage without night-time care.
Disabled people are facing cuts of 20 to 30 per cent. This was covered by the BBC in its excellent “You and Yours” programme last week. People are being reassessed for personal budgets and finding that the amount they will receive is much less than they have been getting. For example, a disabled couple in Lambeth had their care package cut by 20 per cent from £6,025 per month to £4,900.
No doubt there is money to be saved by reducing the bureaucracy and duplication that comes with state interference, and with creative ways to help people become active citizens who will take responsibility for their own lives and communities. That is where the value lies in giving local people more control. They can identify where money is wasted—for example, on the many assessments that people have to go through because different departments in a council are involved and cannot work together on a single assessment. We hope that the right to control will change that practice. The bureaucracy that some councils have built around direct payments and personal budgets is mind-blowing. However, money that is invested in an accessible infrastructure—in lifetime homes and neighbourhoods, for instance—will earn itself back as councils have to make less separate provision for disabled people. Will this happen when local councils are looking for cuts in the short term?
In my own borough, the so-called Conservative flagship council of Hammersmith and Fulham states that it has “listened” to its residents in delivering year-on-year council tax cuts of 3 per cent through “efficiencies”. However, it did not spell out the consequences of the cuts. As we have heard, Hammersmith and Fulham embarked on its own comprehensive spending review long before the coalition Government did, and no doubt will set about implementing a further 26 per cent of cuts with gusto, and all in the name of efficiency.
Who is feeling the impact of this enthusiasm for efficiency? It is isolated old people, people with learning difficulties and disabled people generally—in other words, the poorest residents of Hammersmith and Fulham. The borough has redefined eligibility for homecare and has reduced shopping services, telling 89 year-olds that if they can phone the council, they can order their shopping themselves by phone. The council has nearly halved the take-up of the meals on wheels service. Because of cuts to borough funding, the local Age Concern has had to close down services, including a lunch club and its vital toenail-cutting service—a simple but essential key to continued mobility for older people. The local user-led disabled people's organisation, HAFAD—I declare an interest as its vice-chair—has lost funding for its welfare benefits service at a time when it is essential that disabled people, who are terrified about the benefits that they might lose and who are the poorest and most vulnerable people in our society, should be helped by the benefits that they need. All this is also happening before the rollout of the implications of the CSR.
Giving local councils more autonomy and local people more control should mean money flowing to services that meet the needs of local people, but we must ensure that it is not only those with money and clout whose needs are met. What about those people who are isolated by poverty and struggle unseen? In most areas their interests are voiced by the small, voluntary organisations and, as we have heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, they are the first to go to the wall when cuts are made. I ask the Minister what steps the Government will take to support these vulnerable local user-led organisations whose existence is vital in providing a voice to older and disabled people in their locality so that they can continue to provide essential information, advice and advocacy for people who need care and support.
Finally, I want to touch briefly on a matter which my noble friend Lady Thornton has helpfully trailed, and that is portability. Sadly, the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton, who has raised the matter so eloquently in the House, is not able to be here today. Portability is being able to choose the locality where you live. Currently many disabled and older people are prevented from moving to another postcode because they cannot be sure that they will keep the care and support that they have qualified for. It means that they cannot move to get further education or to have a better chance of a job, nor can they move nearer their families, move away from an abusive relationship, or move out of residential care into the community. What an unbelievable waste of human and economic capital that is.
My time is running out but I wonder if, in all this gloom, the Minister would be willing to provide a small glimmer of hope by agreeing to meet the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, and other interested Peers to discuss the issue of portability. The fear is that once the localism Bill gets to us, it may be too late. I hope she can give that commitment.
Lord Shipley
My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of Newcastle City Council and a vice-president of the Local Government Association.
At the beginning of November, in a debate on the comprehensive spending review, I raised a number of issues relating to the part of the announcement that affects local government. None of those has yet been answered, and I hope that some of the representations that have been made in recent weeks may have an effect when the announcement is made, as I understand it will be on Monday.
The issues related, first, to the scale of the cuts, and we have heard more about that this afternoon. Secondly, they related to the front-loading of those cuts, which is a cause of quite a number of serious problems particularly for the redundancy costs of local authorities. Thirdly, I raised the issue of the abolition of the working neighbourhoods fund, at £0.5 billion—of our local authorities, Birmingham was much the highest, losing some £37 million. That budget enabled money to be paid to voluntary organisations across some 65 council areas where deprivation rates are highest. In particular, the working neighbourhoods fund was used, and is still used, for welfare to work initiatives, one of the core agenda items of this coalition Government. Fourthly, I raised the issue of place-based budgeting because the Local Government Association has estimated savings from £20 billion a year if we can bring the public sector more closely together—sharing services, overheads and so on. In that debate, I urged us to have a much faster delivery of place-based budgeting simply because, if you delay two more years before rollout from the pilot that is taking place, the impact will be delivery that is too slow.
Since the beginning of November, two matters have become starkly clearer. First, the £200 million capitalisation powers that have been set out in the CSR were identified as being completely inadequate. The LGA now estimates costs of some £1.5 billion over the next 18 months, caused by the front-loading impact of the revenue cut. Secondly, it became clear that the working neighbourhoods funds simply could not be abolished if the Government are to fulfil, first, their fairness agenda and, secondly, their welfare to work agenda. Allowance for that has to be built into the overall grant baseline of the councils that receive it, otherwise there would be a massive shift of government grant from poorer to richer areas of England. We await the grant settlement announcement; we do not know the outcome. The other place debated the issues around the CSR and the grant announcement earlier this week, and I noted the comments of the Secretary of State, who said that:
“I and my ministerial team are doing everything possible to ensure that local government has a fair and sustainable settlement”.—[Official Report, Commons, 6/12/10; col. 50.]
That is one that protects the most vulnerable communities and spreads the impact in a manageable way.
I look forward to seeing the detail at the beginning of next week. It sounds as though there is some movement and some understanding of the problems that the CSR has created. If there is no shift, there will be many more announcements of the kind made by Birmingham recently, which announced a few days ago that, over the next four years, it will have to cut some £200,000 from its budget every day of the week in order to deliver the Government’s spending clampdown.
The pressures faced by councils and public services are very grim. We have heard many individual examples of those. The noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, talked about the £1 billion extra on social care for adults. That extra £1 billion for local government and the extra £1 billion for the NHS are very important. However, the LGA estimates that local authorities currently spend £14.4 billion a year on adult social care, and that could rise by 2015 to some £20 billion. The issue is pretty stark.
Secondly, we welcome the transfer of public health responsibilities to local government, but the proposed ring-fencing of that budget could perpetuate patterns of spending that currently see 96 per cent of spending on treating illness, and less than 4 per cent spent on keeping people well. We have to address that prevention agenda much more keenly than we currently do.
Thirdly, I am looking for much greater collaborative working now between local authorities and the National Health Service. In terms of joint planning, budgeting, prevention and reablement, particularly for people leaving hospital who need to regain their independence quickly, these things matter very much. It is essential that the NHS reforms—when they take place—reduce management and administration costs but eliminate in particular financial incentives to keep people in hospital, and increase the financial support for prevention and reablement. The Local Government Association has put forward a five-point plan to deal with the current problems. It covers reducing the impact of front-loading, increasing capitalisation limits and accounting for missing grants. I hope that some of those will be announced more clearly at the beginning of next week.
Fourthly, there is the power to raise more income from local sources, particularly from things such as licensing fees; and, fifthly, there is a need to avoid unfair grant distribution.
We have to reduce the impact of front-loading, because sharing services, the big society approach to service delivery, will take time and money, as we have heard. Indeed, fire authorities have not had front-loaded cuts because they have convinced government that they need more time and money. It is also very important that capitalisation limits can be raised, with perhaps 140,000 jobs likely to be lost in local government.
I hope that in the consultation period after Monday, a number of things will happen. First, I hope that there will be an impact assessment on the voluntary sector and the delivery of the big society vision. Secondly, I hope that there will be an impact assessment on poverty, particularly child poverty. Thirdly, I hope that there will be a clear statement on individual councils’ revenue budget to ensure that we are not redistributing from poorer to richer areas, and that no council suffers a disproportionate drop in income, thereby requiring a higher rate of redundancy funded out of their revenues.
We need to know more about the role of business rates, because I understand from the debate in the other place on Monday night that the Government are heading for a surplus on business rates, and that needs to be addressed. There may well be a problem for some councils in setting a legal budget this year unless capitalisation limits are raised, otherwise councils are going to be forced to fund them from revenue, not from capital, and that is a very serious problem that must be addressed.
Lord Adebowale
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, for her debate. It is timely, and, sadly, it is a subject that we will return to often in the next five years. Even without knowing the local government settlement and the contents of the localism Bill, it is important for us to understand what is happening on the ground and the impact that this is having on individuals who are not in this House.
While listening to the noble Lord, Lord Bates, I was a little alarmed. While I understand his explanation for the cuts, my concern is that the challenge for government is not just to make cuts. If we wanted to get the Budget back into balance, there are much faster and more brutal ways of doing it than what is currently happening. The real challenge for government is to make the cuts—if we have to make them—in a way that retains public services and fairness. I did not hear enough about that. I wanted to invite him to sit down with many of us in the not-for-profit sector to look at how we might transform and deliver services. That is the critical issue. To talk about pain to others, when we ourselves are not in pain, is simply not good enough.
The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and others mentioned Total Place and community budgeting, and I should note that from Turning Point’s perspective—I declare my interest as chief executive of that organisation—I have yet to find Total Place budgeting having an impact on service redesign or delivery. It is important that we understand the difference between theory and practice.
I want to talk about an individual, because only by understanding what happens to individuals can we understand the impact of some of the things that we debate so eloquently in this House. I want to talk about George. That is not his real name, and I have been asked not to identify the local authority that provides the services to him—which in itself tells you something. George is severely autistic. He lives in a residential centre. He attends a day centre for a few hours a day and has done so for several years. He has a good relationship with the people at the day centre, and attending it is vital to his routine and well-being. He and his residential service were recently told that the day centre that he attends is reducing its staff numbers and will no longer be able to provide the support that he needs. The local authority suggested that his residential service provide the staff to accompany him, but it does not have sufficient funding to do so.
George was given three weeks’ notice that he would no longer be able to attend the centre, and the effect on him has been, frankly, devastating. As a direct result of that disruption, his behaviour has become problematic—so problematic that his support staff have been forced to administer medication. The money saved by cutting staff at the day centre will be negligible, particularly when the same local authority will almost certainly need to provide additional funding to support him in other ways, including the costs incurred by providing expensive medication to modify his behaviour. It is also possible that he may have to be hospitalised. We know from work done by the Nuffield Centre that hospitalisation drives up social care costs rather than reduces them.
Examples such as George, of which there are many thousands, throw doubt on the Government's contention that we are all in this together, because George is not. Local authorities are facing cuts to capital funding of the equivalent of 45 per cent in the CSR period, compared with 29 per cent over the public sector as a whole, according to the Local Government Association's figures. Local authorities are having to make cuts now. They have started to make cuts, as exemplified by George, and, from next October, people such as George will no longer be eligible for the mobility component of the disability living allowance—which, again, while saving a relatively small amount of money for local authorities, will remove a vital source of freedom and independence for individuals such as George, thus driving up the expense.
Cuts to social care are already happening. As we have heard, the Local Government Association has warned that from 2011, many local authorities will raise eligibility criteria. We know from work done by the Audit Commission, of which I am the last remaining member—take a good look; a member of an endangered species stands before you—that local authorities have three default behaviours when faced with cuts. The first is to increase eligibility criteria; the second is to make cuts. The last thing they do is transform services. The kind of cuts that most local authorities will have to make will simply not respond to that default behaviour, and it will cost us. Through my work as chief executive of Turning Point, I have seen local authorities form many innovative social enterprises that provide effective and often preventive services, which also get cut at times such as these. There is a resistance to innovation in many local authorities that goes unchallenged, so it is not just for central government; there is a challenge for local government as well. Many short-sighted decisions operate on a false economy, causing greater harm and cost in the long term.
There is another way. Some local authorities are going much deeper by restructuring services quickly and providing innovative ways in which to engage individuals and their communities in the redesign and delivery of services. Unfortunately, there are not enough of them, and the speed of the cuts is outpacing their ability to make changes. I ask the Government three things. First, what modelling have they done on the likely impact of cuts and raising eligibility criteria on social care and health spending? Secondly, what incentives can be put in place to encourage local authorities to innovate and work in partnership with the not-for-profit sector and the private sector in service redesign, rather than slash and burn? Thirdly, what monitoring do the Government intend to put in place to inform us all of the impact of cuts on the vulnerable, in order to ensure fairness?
Lord Parekh
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Thornton for securing and introducing this debate. It could not be more timely or on a more important subject. Local authorities will suffer an overall reduction of 26 per cent in their revenue funding over a period of five years, which averages about 7.25 per cent a year. They will also suffer a reduction in capital expenditure of 30 per cent. I do not think that cuts of this magnitude are warranted by our economic situation. They seem to be driven by factors other than what the economy requires. They form part of an economic strategy that is likely to do us a lot of damage in years to come.
However, these cuts are being made, and I want to start with that. What are the likely consequences of these cuts? The Government say that savings can be made, and I agree. They can be made by removing all traces of waste, maximising efficiency and productivity, sharing departments or curbing excessive senior pay, but these actions have their limits and can take us only so far. Therefore, sooner or later, jobs will have to go and services will have to be cut. The question for us is: who will bear the brunt of these job losses and reductions in services?
The Home Secretary has said that there is a real risk that the cuts will affect women, ethnic minorities and other groups disproportionately. The IFS has said that the poor will be disproportionately hit more than others. Cuts therefore need an equality audit. After some confusion and hesitation, the Government seem to have realised that they have an obligation under the law and therefore some kind of equality audit is being done in relation to women but, so far as I know, no such assessment or audit has been done in relation to ethnic minorities, and I wish to know why. There are people, such as my good friends Professor Michael Keith of Oxford University and Professor Modood of Bristol, who have been doing some counting on how these cuts will affect ethnic minorities. The picture that emerges is grim and I want to share it with the House. There are four levels.
First, cuts in government employment will affect just under 500,000 people and about 100,000 jobs will go in local authorities, which is one in 10. Ethnic minorities are disproportionately represented in the public sector, and therefore they will be the first to suffer. Given the fact that few of them are in senior positions and the sad reality of racism in certain sections of our society, they will obviously be made to bear the brunt of services that have to be cut. Cuts in police funds are also likely to affect ethnic minorities more than other groups. I am particularly concerned about police community support officers, who enjoy the support of the local community, are drawn from local communities, predominantly from ethnic minorities, and do most valuable work.
The second area that worries me is social housing. Seventeen per cent of the white community, 41 per cent of the Afro-Caribbean community and 47 per cent of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis depend on social housing. Ethnic minorities will therefore bear the brunt of cuts in housing benefit. These cuts are more likely to affect larger households where ethnic minorities are more represented. There is therefore a real danger of residential segregation or what the Mayor of London called “ethnic cleansing”. That is exactly what happened in Chicago under Reagan when he followed similar policies.
Thirdly, the Government say that they will protect education and health, but the question is: how are resources going to be distributed and used in those areas? Primary education and the special educational needs of ethnic minorities will certainly suffer and although the NHS budget is ring-fenced in real terms, job losses will occur and many services will be cut, particularly in relation to ethnic minorities, such as mental health or translation for those who cannot speak English. Let us remember that ethnic minorities make up 11.4 per cent of the NHS workforce. Few of them are in managerial positions and therefore are likely to be the first to bear the brunt.
Finally, I turn to the voluntary sector. In the past two years, there has been an increase of around 80 per cent in the demand for services from ethnic minority voluntary service organisations. But their resources are limited and cannot cope with the increase in demand. Some 42 per cent of ethnic minority charities have an income of less than £10,000 and rely on public sector funding. Some 49 per cent of their budget comes from central government; 26 per cent comes from local government; and 16 per cent from the health authorities. When these budgets and grants are cut, ethnic minority organisations will suffer most.
I want to raise a larger cultural or philosophical problem, which is of great importance. As the state shrinks and offloads its functions to other organisations in the name of the big society, things of a peculiar kind begin to happen. As the state retreats there will be vast gaps, which will have to be filled. Who will fill those gaps? We are told by the Prime Minister that the big society will fill the gap, but the big society is an abstraction. It consists of a number of institutions, some of which are better organised than others. Therefore, there is a real danger that religious organisations, especially churches, will step in to fill the vacuum left by the state. This has happened and continues to happen in the United States.
Churches are better organised. They have large sums of money available to them and have networks of voluntary workers. As the voluntary sector suffers the squeeze, churches will step in as they are already beginning to do. I am particularly worried not just in relation to the white population or the Christian community, but equally worried in relation to the Muslims because many of them are in need. They are the most unemployed and the most alienated. They would want to turn to mosques or mosque-related charities to help them with the problems that the state has offloaded on them. I shudder to think of where, as a consequence of this, the mosque and mosque-related charities will get their money.
Finally, I have three questions. First, will the Government undertake an equality audit in relation to ethnic minorities? Secondly, will they continue to monitor the situation periodically for the next four years? Thirdly, will they ensure that the voluntary sector is well funded and does not fall into the hands of religious organisations of this or that kind?
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, for calling this important and timely debate. I am honoured to follow the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, who recently spoke about the need for our society to be one in which everyone feels that they could belong. He warned of the dangers of alienation and isolation, which he has just repeated. Yet the latest UNICEF report on child welfare in developed nations again places us towards the bottom of the table. It highlights that, in particular, we have a long tail of child poverty. Many of our children in poverty are more deeply impoverished than those of our peer nations. They are more deeply alienated and isolated.
Perhaps I may refer to the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Bates, and talk about the efficiencies that still might be made by local authorities. I read with interest the Philip Green report on efficiencies that could be made across government by using its size and volume to commission services in a much more efficient and effective way. I welcome what the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea and the London Borough of Westminster are doing in terms of sharing services. At this critical time, I very much encourage that motion towards those new efficiencies. The right honourable Iain Duncan Smith and the honourable Graham Allen have worked together in establishing the importance of early intervention in breaking the cycle of intergenerational poverty. They highlight the huge cost to our society now and in the future for failing our most vulnerable children and families. I pay tribute to all the parties for their commitment to this endeavour.
We are in a dark time. We need only look to Eire to see the risks we face and the need for retrenchment, so we must take this opportunity to focus our resources on the essentials and to innovate. As my noble friend Lord Adebowale said, we need to redesign our services and delivery. If we can take a breath and step back, as the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, said, we must do that because many families and young people are going to lose out under the current arrangements. I hope that the Government will listen to the words of my noble friend Lord Low, and that they will monitor carefully the impact of these cuts on the most vulnerable.
I wish to consider how we can do this for the Sure Start children’s centres. Will the Minister consider giving guidance to local authorities on how to keep the essentials of children’s centres alive at this time and how to make them as financially independent as possible? I would welcome the opportunity to discuss the matter outwith the Chamber, given her vast knowledge of local authority affairs and her responsibilities in this area.
Recently I visited the Melcombe Primary Children’s Centre in the borough of Hammersmith and Fulham, and I was impressed and moved by what I saw. On Tuesday I received an e-mail from the manager, Joan Murphy, which says:
“This is just to keep you updated. As you are aware, the funding for children’s centres will not be ring-fenced next year. We have received information from Hammersmith and Fulham borough informing us that:
1. The local authority will not be funding any centres under the new arrangements and
2. No funding expectation should be assumed.
We are therefore extremely concerned about our future”.
I also received a letter from one of the mothers I met at the centre. She is a Thai woman and I will read her words verbatim except for making occasional amendments for the sake of clarity:
“I want to say that I am one person in the children’s centre. Every time that I go to children’s centre I see people and family enjoying friends and family, and then when I come back, everyone has very nice smile. I want to see my daughter come back again. I stay very far. Need to take two bus and come back two bus. Long way to go, but I happy to go this class because everybody very good people in there and very good parent in there. I mum and very happy to take daughter place very clean lots of toy and very good children. Somebody I know tried to go to another centre near their house and then they came back again because they say in this centre good students and quiet … We have very big trouble before but Adrienne help me a lot”—
the family welfare officer. She continues:
“And then when I want my help sometime they come to my house for helping. I mean like we need to come to them to help but they come to my family … Staff help me and tell me and always smile and this very nice”.
She goes on to say that:
“Another one parent she have problem with her baby who die soon but council not give her no stair. She need to carry baby go upstair downstair every day. She quite old lady. I not understand but Adrienne try to help her”.
This refers to another parent, an elderly lady with a child suffering from muscular dystrophy for whom no appropriate housing could be found. She had to carry her child up and down the stairs.
I want to make the point that it is crucial to social cohesion that these centres continue to exist. They offer a place for parents on the edge of society to gather together in order to do improving things with their children and meet other parents, thus easing their sense of isolation. Without that these parents can easily become depressed. They lose their joy in life and in their children, and the vital attachment which we all recognise, particularly in the earliest years between parent and child, can be undermined.
Not all children’s centres are excellent. Melcombe Primary Children’s Centre certainly seems excellent to me and I hope with all my heart that something can be done to save its services. Meeting with the chief executive of the London Early Years Foundation yesterday, I heard some helpful suggestions on how children’s centres can be made more self-supporting and effective. They can adopt a Robin Hood approach, asking parents to pay for services at different rates according to their means. They can make use of charities such as Home-Start to provide services for families. They can adopt the reserve grandparents model from Denmark and become multigenerational centres while saving money. They can make use of time-banking or become largely independent social enterprises. They can indeed be at the very heart of delivering the big society.
I ask the Minister as a matter of urgency to consider whether guidance can be given to councils on the essentials of what needs to be saved and how children’s centres can become more self-supporting. I ask her whether a kite-mark might be developed to be given to local authorities that adopt best practice in this area, as has proved very effective for universities in improving support for care leavers. I ask her whether more could be done to encourage philanthropy and to encourage businesses to consider corporate social responsibility in this area. I look forward to her response.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, with the leave of the House, may I speak in the gap? I apologise for this but due to an error on my part my name was not added to the list. I declare interests non-pecuniary with connections with the Scouts and the youth service in Lancashire. I concentrate my remarks on a belief that the severity and speed of the cuts in local government are unjustified and dangerous. I accept the need for cuts; my background in local government over 27 years tells me it’s not unusual, as the song says. However, the severity and depth is awful.
I am worried about the implications for the voluntary sector, whether it is for the youth service or victims of domestic violence. It is no good those in government or at any local level saying that we must protect the voluntary sector—the voluntary sector is voluntary in terms of local government, so much of the money is spoken for. I regret that we do not have the information on the RSG today but I know that there is evidence that local government is going to suffer massively.
Perhaps I could slightly challenge my noble friend Lord Parekh, because on the day that the Prime Minister spelled out the implications of the big society I was speaking to a Republican mayor from a small town in Texas. He said: “You know, this is not new. Ronald Reagan tried this. My local church is by and large a very wealthy community”; he was a pastor at the local church. He said: “We were only too willing to help. But then we discovered that to replace the public spending, 200 people in a local church community had to raise $500,000 a year—merely to stand still”. This was far below a level in which they could build up and implement improvements in local services.
I am deeply concerned about where we are heading. We have all sorts of local initiatives working well with people who are heavily committed to working in partnership, whether it is with the churches, Physically Handicapped and Able Bodied youth centres or victims of domestic violence. It takes years to build up the commitment, whether it is finding the churchwarden who will run the local church youth group, or finding the people who will help with the multicultural, multi-faith, multiracial youth group in my home town of Preston. Whatever it is, it takes years to develop this level of community activity and I am deeply worried that people are really crying in the wind if they think these services can be protected—but perhaps the Minister will be able to assure us that she will take back the message that we in local government ask not to be spared, but for equal treatment at the right speed.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I congratulate not only my noble friend for introducing the debate but all those who participated in what has been a very thoughtful exploration of the issues which are faced up and down the country. In doing so I declare interests as—like the noble Lord, Lord Shipley—a vice-president of the Local Government Association and a member of Newcastle City Council, and in my case also a president of Age UK Newcastle and vice-president of Newcastle Council for Voluntary Service.
Those few noble Lords who were present two weeks ago may have had the dubious pleasure of hearing me address the House and refer to Engels. Today I want to begin by demonstrating the breadth of my exploration of 19th-century political philosophy by quoting another luminary, Karl Marx, who famously proclaimed that history repeats itself; the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce. I hasten to assure your Lordships that the modern Labour Party owes more to Marks and Spencer than to Marx and Engels, but I invite you to join me on a journey back into the past and to return to 1979, likened on a couple of occasions in a debate in another place the other day, to which the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, referred, to “Life on Mars”. I noticed rather surprisingly that Mr Pickles did not add the word “bars” to that phrase.
Nevertheless, as an exercise it is worth repeating because in 1979, as some noble Lords will recall, the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, as he now is, campaigned on a platform of setting local government free and within six weeks announced the first round of financial penalties on overspending councils—of which, I confess, my council was deemed to be one—and, incidentally, then set off a chain of cuts and capping which went on for several years. At the same time, the new Government also increased VAT, although by considerably more than the present Government propose to do in a few weeks’ time.
So there is a sense of déjà vu—except for this: the cuts will be much worse this time. They are preceded by extensive cuts in June of this year; they embody 36 per cent cuts in formula funding and, as we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Adebowale, 45 per cent cuts in capital, which will have significant implications for both the private and voluntary sectors. I invite the Minister to indicate what estimate the Government have made about job losses in those sectors.
I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Bates, on being the only Conservative Back-Bencher to speak in the debate; on being virtually the only one present during it; on coming from the north-east; and, like the Minister, although praying in aid the deficit—the standard mantra we hear from the government Benches these days—on not claiming, at least on this occasion, that the deficit arose solely because of the extravagance and expenditure of the Labour Government. Perhaps he recalls—as no one else on the Benches opposite seems to do—that the Conservative Party pledged itself to spend exactly the same amount of money at least until November 2008.
The noble Lord need not take it from me that there are serious issues here. I can refer him to the Liberal Democrat leader of Newcastle City Council pro tem, Councillor Faulkner, who warned the Deputy Prime Minister that the city cannot take another spending blow similar to the one made over the summer. He did that two months ago and then last week, in endorsing the approach of the north-east councils, he said:
“We believe the Government has been very slow to open its eyes about the impact on local government and in particular of not taking account of deprivation”.
He went on to say:
“It is going to be the most challenging four years that we have ever faced”.
An anonymous council—even in these days of WikiLeaks one has to respect some degree of anonymity—has decided that it will be making substantial cuts in its back-office services and £12.5 million-worth of cuts in children and young people’s services, £4.5 million in adult social care and £2.5 million in housing front-line jobs, exactly fulfilling the warning of the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, chair of the LGA, that this would follow.
I would like now to deploy another 19th-century writer—this time it is not a political writer but the novelist Charles Dickens—in looking at the Government’s approach. We are being led through great expectations to a bleak house and eventually, of course, to hard times. In the context of local government we are being led by Mr Pickles, who brings all the qualities of that blunt northerner Wackford Squeers, together with some of the qualities of Mr Bumble, in his approach to this local government settlement. He was the first Secretary of State to settle, offering up the biggest cut of any department except Defra in percentage terms but actually seven times more in cash terms—the £5.6 billion to which people have referred—and heavily front-loaded, as others, including the noble Lord, Lord Tope, have said. He has so far refused to authorise capitalisation of redundancy costs, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and I again ask the Minister to say how, if capitalisation cannot take place, the redundancies can be funded without affecting front-line services.
Faced with criticism from all sides politically in local government, particularly with regard to the effect of the cuts on the areas which are the most disadvantaged, the Minister who was first to settle is now scurrying around to be the last to extract concessions from the Treasury to mitigate the damage that would otherwise occur. To invoke Dickens again, he is a sort of Oliver Twist manqué. Oliver Twist asked for more, but he did not first of all offer half his dinner up in the workhouse as a sacrifice. However, in addition to that, Mr Pickles has engaged in some diversionary activity. He has used a smokescreen to virtually accuse councils of sitting on £10 billion of reserves, as if they were casually lying around. He ought to know that, of that amount, some £6 billion is earmarked; it cannot be used other than for authorised purposes—for example, pensions reserves, major repairs or capital. Capital cannot be used, of course, for revenue purposes unless specifically authorised, hence the request to authorise capitalisation to deal with redundancy payments. In fact, only £3 billion out of £68 billion of revenue is in unallocated reserves. In addition to that, some is in school reserves, and it is not evenly spread about.
An additional diversionary tactic was a rather squalid attack on the chief executive of the Local Government Association and his salary, and indeed on other chief executives promoted by the Secretary of State and the Minister for Housing. It was the same Secretary of State who appointed the chief executive of Doncaster Council at a salary significantly more than that of the Prime Minister. I agree with him that joint services should be brought to bear. There are savings to be made of that kind, but they will not be made overnight. Therefore there is a need to avoid front-loading, and to give the local authorities and others time to develop that approach. That includes, of course, Total Place, although I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, that progress so far is slow, and it is disappointing that there are only 18 pilots.
Obviously it is good that £2 billion less will be cut from social care than would otherwise be the case. However, it must be borne in mind, first, that the Local Government Association’s prognosis is that a 4 per cent increase year on year is required because of demographic trends. The Government appear only to accept something like 1.4 per cent. Secondly, the deployment of the National Health Service proportion has to be agreed with the National Health Service. It is not simply to be transferred. In any case, it looks very much as though the £2 billion surplus in the non-domestic rate accumulation will be applied effectively to pay for this; but that is money that ought properly to be in local government in the first place. Therefore it is a little much to claim the credit for that. There are issues that arise here. The Association of Directors of Adult Social Services says that the £2 billion over the next four years is good news, but only in a settled state—and, of course, we have not got a settled state, given rising demand and rising costs.
There are then some further questions for the Minister. First, is there an estimate of what is going to happen on eligibility criteria and of how many authorities at the end of the day will be extending assistance to those other than the most critical? That question was asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock. Secondly, what would be the impact on third-sector providers of social care? Thirdly, in view of the capital restrictions, what estimate has been made of the potential reduction in aids and adaptations? Several of your Lordships speaking in this debate have referred to the need to recognise that social care does not stand alone, a point made by my noble friend Lady Thornton and the noble Lord, Lord Low. A whole range of services are clearly connected with social care—housing, schools, transport, leisure and culture. All are relevant to adult services, not just for the elderly but for younger adults who may suffer from a disability.
In summary, it seems that the new localism is more about localising blame than localising opportunity and genuine decision-making. If I can congratulate the Government on anything, it is that they are going one better than Karl Marx, because on this occasion history is repeating itself at one and the same time as both tragedy and farce.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham)
My Lords, this has been an extraordinarily interesting couple of hours. I was just thinking to myself as I was sitting here that I was sorry that I was not Freddy Howe, because we could perhaps have done a two-headed job on this. I am going to have to try to stand in on those aspects of the debate concerning health as well as deal with local government.
I shall start from where noble Lords would expect me to start. Everything that we are talking about today takes place against a background of a very difficult economic situation. I am not going to level cheap shots about that; I have done that several times, but I will not today. We have to accept that, whichever Government had come in, there would have had to have been immediate reductions in expenditure. I know that if the Labour Party had got in, it would immediately have had to make, and had expected to make, reductions of anything up to £50 billion at once. We know that that is in the Treasury reports.
Where we are starting from, probably, is how you deal with that deficit and where you lay the main difficulties. I have to say to noble Lords opposite that if local government does not bear it, somebody else is going to have to. We are all in this now—someone said that we are in this together—to try to sort out the best way out that we can. This Government believe that the best way of dealing not only with the deficit but with the future way of managing services and taking people’s lives forward is to bring in what we are calling “localism”, which is to devolve absolutely everything that we can from the centre to the local. Many people have said it before—many Governments have said it, and I am going to say it again—but this time it will happen. When noble Lords see the decentralisation and localism Bill, they will understand that everything—the decisions that affect all our lives—will go from the centre and be dealt with by the local. Local authorities will work with local social enterprise, local and voluntary organisations, other local public bodies and the health service to put their services into place and to have access to all the money that would have been at the centre—certainly in terms of local government money. This is a huge transference of funds and responsibilities.
To many of the questions that I have been asked today, which will be in Hansard for people to look at, the answer is: do not look back to central government for the answers because they will not be there. They will have to come from local government, from relationships with local government and the working from there on how the money will be spent and under what conditions. That is a big responsibility that is being handed down.
We started with the thoughtful and measured introduction by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, on adult social care and the future of health services. The issues of PCTs and GP fundholding take me back; we have all been here before. I start with adult social care. The £1 billion is not ring-fenced but is down and intended to be used for adult social care. Everybody appreciates that there are huge problems building up: demography, the elderly and the need for all the services, which the noble Baroness pointed out. The expectation is that money will be passed round social care from the health service and spent accordingly. A health Bill is due, where I am sure some of the matters that the noble Baroness raised will come up.
On the question of GP commissioning and what they will have to do, shadow GP commissioning will be set up to look into most of the systems and matters that the noble Baroness raised. PCTs are already developing good commissioning practice, on which they will capitalise. I read the other day that GP commissioner pilots are being set up that will work out what they have to do. Shadow bodies will be introduced as soon as possible to help test the new system. We are allowing three years to consult on the reforms and put them into practice, which means that there will be time to ensure that any problems in the system—the relationship that the GPs will take the responsibility for—can be ironed out. The White Paper will include all these.
The noble Baroness and other noble Lords raised the eligibility criteria for various aspects of services, some of which are as important—such as home cleaning—but perhaps less recognised than others. Support for day centres, residential care and care in the home will all be in the hands of the local authorities. I know that they already have to make decisions on criteria but they will also make the decisions that follow up on that. Inevitably, we are now looking not just to the reduction to funds going forward. Everybody has been working under considerable constraints for some time. So quite a lot of the changes that people have been talking about and the restrictions have been around for longer than this Government.
I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Bates for his stringent and stirring words in defence of the budget reductions. He said much of what I would want to say. We have to make the reductions but there are better ways of doing things. There are opportunities that will come out of this. The noble Lord, Lord Adebowale, asked about social enterprises. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, asked what co-operation and what other means of looking at services—such as social enterprises— would be used. This is all again part and parcel of managing a budget and being sure that you get reductions and efficiencies of service and that you use everybody’s skills. Social enterprises are a fabulous way of dealing with the social services requirements and the needs of people. We expect to see more of those over the next few years.
The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, talked about the cuts to adult social care. With the extra £1 billion, we think that there should not be cuts. Local councils do not solely rely on government grants. They have council tax as well. The noble Lord opposite was a bit withering about reserves. Some councils have reserves and would be able to use some of those.
While the settlement is clearly challenging, we do not think that there should be a huge impact on adult social care given the £1 billion in the local government settlement and another £1 billion earmarked through the NHS budget for spending from next year onwards. With a strong focus on efficiency and co-operative working with others, we believe that adult social care should continue to be a top priority of local authorities.
The noble Lord, Lord Tope, referred to front loading, as did other speakers. I know that there has been a lot of concern about the front loading of the grant reductions. That is a matter for the spending announcement which will be made in the next few weeks. If front loading occurs, it is because we need to deal with the deficit as soon as we can and get that under control. If we can cope with that, it will make everything much easier as we go forward.
Noble Lords asked many questions in their excellent speeches. I accept immediately that reductions in social care and health services constitute a sensitive area for many people. Many noble Lords are involved in the services and in voluntary organisations and I understand their anxieties. Some of the questions can be answered at this stage and some cannot. I have been asked to give assurances. The best that I can do in that regard is to look carefully at the questions that have been asked and ensure that proper replies are given to them.
Noble Lords discussed whether philanthropy could be the answer to some of these problems. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds mentioned that. He is very concerned about children and young people and the need for organisations to do more for them. Everybody wants to be able to do more but under the circumstances people may have to rationalise what they are doing and try to ensure that they provide as good a service as they can.
One recognises immediately what the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, and others have said about the patchiness of services and the low standards of care at home. However, these sort of questions have been raised over a number of years and it is disappointing that they have still not been addressed. I do not think that maintaining standards, and people’s view of standards, should be totally governed by finance. Everybody has a part to play in ensuring that the resources that we have are used to good effect and that people looking after older or elderly people do so to the best of their ability. As to the state of residential care in old people’s homes, I agree that some homes offer better care than others.
The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, has a lot of experience and I listen to her very carefully when she speaks. I understand that more details about the £100 million in transformational funding will be available. It is £100 million over 2010-11 and 2011-12, so it is £100 million over the two years. She asked about the capacity and willingness of GPs to commission social care. Our understanding is that GPs are going to be told that this is what is expected of them. They are going to be required to commission and provide the services that everybody needs. That, again, will have to be tested out under the transitional arrangements.
The noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, asked whether we could meet to discuss portability and I would be happy to arrange for that to happen. I know that matter is being looked at and so we will arrange to do that. The noble Baroness also asked about DLA removal. There are currently two mismatched systems for assessing the needs of disabled people and I think the measures are being looked at. The two systems do carry the potential for duplication and so that needs to be assessed.
A number of questions were asked about modelling of what is going to happen as a result of the reductions. I do not think there will be central modelling, but I will of course take back the concern that some care should be taken to see what the effects are on the services and the way they are run.
It has been an extremely interesting debate and has raised a whole host of issues, some of which I have dealt with, some of which I have not; some I hope I have dealt with adequately in some way. Nonetheless, the debate was well brought and I am glad we have had it. Two people were mentioned. One is George, who we need to know about; the other is the elderly gentleman with COPD mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, who I believe will be looked after properly.
Baroness Thornton
I start by thanking the Minister and all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. The noble Baroness’s first remark—that she wished she had had the noble Earl, Lord Howe, with her—is exactly right, because this did need both the local government and the health perspective to make it a rounded debate. I regard this as the start of the discussion about social care. We need to think about how we have these debates so that we can have the full range of government response that is required. This timing was perfect because we have identified in your Lordships’ House today the questions that need to be asked and that we need to keep asking about these issues. We have had several themes. We have had what I suspect is, from the coalition’s point of view, a lobby. The noble Lords, Lord Tope and Lord Shipley, are in there lobbying on the front-loading issue, backed up by my noble friend Lord Beecham. We have had individual stories, which are a very important way of addressing issues that cut across so many government departments. Unless you consider George’s story, the stories that the noble Lord, Lord Low, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, described, and the issues for people with learning disabilities or whatever they are, you cannot test whether these systems are working, how they are evolving and how they are changing.
My noble friends Lady Sherlock and Lady Wilkins talked about children and the disabled. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, gave a very moving account of the Sure Start centres in Hammersmith and Fulham. It will be a terrible tragedy if they are closed, as it looks like they might be.
We talked, as this House always does, about the partnership with the voluntary sector. The right reverend Prelate, the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, the noble Lord, Lord Adebowale, and my noble friend Lady Farrington emphasised the extremely important role of the voluntary sector. However, as the right reverend Prelate said, it is not a substitute for properly funded public services.
Then we talked about who pays and fairness. The noble Lord, Lord Adebowale, and my noble friend Lord Parekh raised these issues. I have to say that I was disappointed that the noble Lord, Lord Bates, and the Minister basically said—I paraphrase—“Well, actually, tough, because this is tough”. The noble Baroness also used the words, “We are all in this now”. Actually, we are not all in this now. Some of us are not in this, but the vulnerable, the poor, the disabled and the children are, and it is a grave problem. Some big questions were also raised by my noble friend Lord Lipsey.
We have raised many questions that still need to be answered. The Government are abrogating wholesale their responsibility towards some of the disabled, the elderly and the vulnerable in this country. We need to keep doing our job. We need to keep asking these questions, because that is what we are here for. I thank noble Lords and I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Scottish Parliament (Elections etc.) Order 2010
(14 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
That the draft order laid before the House on 25 October be approved. 6th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments
The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)
My Lords, the draft order consolidates the rules for the conduct of the Scottish Parliament elections and ensures that the accepted recommendations from the Gould report will apply for the May 2011 election. The draft order has been available to electoral administrators and political parties since it was laid in Parliament on 25 October, more than six months ahead of the 2011 election. Indeed, an earlier version of the draft order was circulated to electoral administrators in April and to political parties in June. Most of us in this House who are still here will recall that more than 180,000 votes were lost due to rejected ballot papers in the 2007 Scottish parliamentary and local government elections. It was agreed across the parties that that is totally unacceptable in a modern democracy and, understandably, there was widespread public outrage at the time.
Mr Ron Gould, who was commissioned by the Electoral Commission to review the 2007 Scottish elections, concluded that six main factors contributed to confusion and to the level of rejected papers. First, he identified many problems on the design of ballot papers. Secondly, a new proportional voting system for local government elections had been introduced and voters were confused by combined elections that used two different electoral systems. Thirdly, there was poor co-ordination of the publicity campaigns of the Electoral Commission, the Scottish Government and others. Fourthly, Mr Gould identified problems caused by electronic counting. Fifthly, he found that there was fragmented and late legislation and a lack of involvement from electoral administrators in the legislative process. Sixthly, he said that there was a lack of co-ordination within the electoral community and a fragmented approach to planning.
There is no doubt that public confidence needed to be repaired after the problems experienced in 2007, but I believe that a successfully administered UK general election in Scotland earlier this year will have gone some way towards doing that. I am pleased to say that the Scotland Office has continued the work started by the previous Administration on implementing those Gould recommendations that were accepted by the Government at the time.
In relation to Gould’s recommendation that there should be a six-month cut-off period for changes in the law governing the conduct of elections, we have made sure that electoral administrators and political parties are well versed in the changes to legislation well in advance of May 2011. The target date of 5 November for making the order was always going to be challenging for whichever party won the recent general election. However, the projected date for making the order is still considerably earlier than at the previous Scottish Parliament election, for which the relevant order was made less than two months before the poll.
The draft order applies to next year’s election the Gould and Scottish Affairs Committee recommendations that were accepted by the previous Government. I accept that the draft order is large, so I will focus on the main changes since 2007. However, before doing so, I want to refer to a correction slip that Members may have seen associated with the order. The correction slip makes a number of typographical corrections to the instrument that will become part of the final order for printing if it is approved by Parliament.
It is also appropriate to comment on the four points on the order raised by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. Article 2 defines “European Parliamentary Election”, although that term is not used in the text of the order. Rule 20(3)(a) in Schedule 2 includes within the minor errors in nomination papers that returning officers can correct,
“errors as to a person’s electoral number”.
However, unlike the nomination papers for election to the other place, the nomination papers for Scottish parliamentary elections do not contain proposers’ electoral numbers, which renders the reference unnecessary. Both those errors, while regrettable, have no effect on the operation of the order. The Scotland Office will ensure that returning officers are aware that the reference to electoral numbers can safely be ignored and the unnecessary provisions will be removed at the first suitable opportunity to amend the order.
The committee also highlighted Article 3(1), which deals with disregarding late alterations to the register of electors, and Article 4(5), which deals with the effect of alterations to the register where there has been an appeal against a registration officer’s decision. Those provisions have been in substantially similar form in previous versions of the order since 2002 and, so far as I am aware, have not prejudiced voters or the effective administration of previous elections. On reviewing the articles in light of the committee’s comments, we are of the view that there is an overlap with the provisions of the Representation of the People Act 1983 that renders them largely unnecessary. Unfortunately, those points were not raised until after the draft order had been considered by the Electoral Commission and had been laid.
We propose proceeding with the order in its current form and will revisit the provisions once we have had the benefit of consultation with the Electoral Commission and other interested parties. Since the equivalent provisions in previous orders have apparently not caused difficulty for voters or electoral administrators at the elections in 2003 or 2007, we do not anticipate there being any difficulty with the provisions being made as drafted.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I thank the noble Lord for giving way. Before he moves too far away from the issue of defective drafting, perhaps I may raise a point with him. As he knows, I lived through part of this process in government because I became Secretary of State after the 2007 election and received the Gould recommendations and the Electoral Commission report. I accept entirely what the Minister says about the errors having little, if any, effect. My concern is that, to others, such errors may appear to show a consistent inaccuracy in the machinery for dealing with these issues. The Minister will not be able to check this now, but I refer him to the observations of his right honourable friend Mr Alistair Carmichael, who was the shadow Secretary of State for Scotland when I reported to Parliament on the report. Mr Carmichael suggested that history revealed that the electoral machinery that was servicing elections in Scotland was not fit for purpose. I am concerned that dismissing these errors in this way does not draw Ministers' attention to what may be a fundamental systemic problem in the machinery that is in danger of repeating the previous problem.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I hear what the noble Lord says. I could not quite remember where he was in the chronology of the Gould report, but he has now confirmed that he was the Secretary of State who received the report. The point that he makes is perfectly fair. However, the errors were spotted only very late in the day and have been drawn to the attention of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. They were not spotted by the Electoral Commission when it looked at the draft order, nor by the electoral officers to whom the drafts were sent out, either on this occasion or on two previous occasions. That does not excuse the fact that the errors are regrettable and must be looked at. The point is fairly made that perhaps such errors flag up the need to have a thorough-going review of the orders. That said, as the noble Lord acknowledged in his intervention, there is nothing in the draft order that should impair in any way the operation of the elections in May next year. As I have indicated, we will draw the matter to the attention of the Electoral Commission for further consideration. Indeed, I think it has been suggested that the orders could possibly have been withdrawn and relaid. However, given the statutory obligation to consult the Electoral Commission, timing was one of the key issues that Mr Gould’s report flagged up. Therefore, it is important that we proceed with the draft order, while acknowledging, with regret, the errors that exist.
I turn to the substance of the draft order. The draft order consolidates legislation on the conduct of Scottish Parliament elections, so that the majority of rules governing those elections are now in one document, which we hope will make it easier for electoral administrators and political parties to use. The draft order sets out for the 2011 elections that we will return to a manual count of ballot papers for both the Scottish Parliament constituency and regional elections. There will be separate ballot papers for the constituency and regional votes, unlike in 2007, when both the constituency and regional votes were on a single ballot paper. Registered party names must be used on ballot papers and the design of the ballot paper follows the principles set out in the Electoral Commission’s publication Making your mark—Good practice for designing voter materials: guidance for government policy-makers.
There will be a longer timetable for running the election—increased from 21 days to 28 days—and, to accommodate administrative demands of increased postal voting, there will be a longer period between the close of nominations and the date of election, with an increase from 16 days before the poll to 23 days. The deadline for registering to vote by post and the earliest time that postal votes can be issued is still 11 days before the poll. The longer period between close of nominations and the date of election will help to accommodate the increased demand to vote by post. Once all the names of all the candidates are known, ballot papers can be printed without any further delays and sent out immediately after the deadline for registering for a postal vote has passed. For consistency, we have brought the control of donations to candidates and limits on candidates’ expenditure into line with the principles set out in the Westminster rules.
Apart from the consolidation of the 2008 and 2009 amendments to the 2007 order, the main new changes that have been made are: new requirements for the review of polling districts and places; the application to candidates at Scottish parliamentary elections, other than party list candidates, of the regime for control of donations to candidates that applies to UK parliamentary elections; limits to the expenses that may be incurred by or on behalf of candidates, other than party list candidates, in the pre-candidacy or so-called long campaign period before a Scottish parliamentary general election; revised requirements for candidates’ returns as to election expenses; revised requirements for the information that has to appear on election publications; an increase in the minimum period between the dissolution of the Scottish Parliament and the day of poll from 21 days to 28 days, which reflects the increase in the overall timetable for Scottish Parliament elections recommended in the Gould report; and provision for electoral registration officers to supply returning officers and other persons or organisations with a consolidated version of the register that takes account of any alterations, as opposed to having to provide a copy of the original register and individual copies of the notices of alteration. There is no longer to be a separate timetable for by-elections.
In addition, the draft order provides for: minor errors on nomination forms to be corrected by either the constituency or regional returning officer; grandparents or grandchildren to assist a person with disabilities to vote at a polling station; a requirement on the voter to sign the tendered votes list; the responsibility for the storage of election documents to be transferred from sheriff clerks to constituency returning officers. The provisions on the death of a candidate during the election period have also been revised. Changes have been made to what information on Members should be entered in the Scottish Parliament’s returns book and to restrict the availability of the returns book for public inspection to the life of the Parliament or to such later date as the Presiding Officer of the Scottish Parliament may direct. The electoral registration officer is now required to inform people that they have been appointed as a proxy and of the length of their appointment.
The draft order provides for limited access to, and for the supply of copies of, absent voting records, such as the postal voters list, for candidates, political parties and elected representatives as well as for public inspection of those records under supervision. The draft order allows the returning officer to determine which of a candidate’s proposed agents are to be appointed for the purpose of attending the postal voting proceedings if the list submitted by the candidate contains more names than authorised by the returning officer.
As Members of your Lordships’ House know, the Government wish to proceed with the referendum on the UK general election voting system on 5 May next year. The Bill dealing with that is currently under consideration in your Lordships’ House—indeed a number of noble Lords have participated in those debates. On Monday, your Lordships’ House rejected an amendment that would have prevented the referendum poll from taking place on 5 May 2011, when the elections are scheduled.
In closing my introductory remarks, I wish to make reference to the Scotland Bill, which signals the Government’s commitment to implement the proposals contained in the Calman Commission on Scottish Devolution, including the recommendation to devolve responsibility for the administration of elections. Indeed, no doubt the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, will be taken into account by those who administer elections in the future. The Scotland Bill was introduced in the House of Commons on 30 November, but it is clear that the Bill will not receive Royal Assent ahead of the May 2011 elections.
Of course, not all of Ron Gould’s recommendations were for the United Kingdom Government to act on; some of them were for the Scottish Government, the Electoral Commission or, indeed, for electoral administrators to implement. I hope that this House is reassured that the draft order will ensure that we take the necessary steps recommended by Ron Gould—accepted and adopted by the previous Administration and incorporated into the draft order—and ensure a successful election in May 2011. I commend the order to the House.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I support and welcome this order, despite the defects. I am grateful to the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments for its sixth report and the work it has done in identifying these defects. Together with other Members of your Lordships’ House, I received a letter from a man who has been described in the other place as an SNP lawyer. It contains a briefing that sets out a number of points relating to drafting in areas where this order could be improved. I do not support the general thrust of the argument that we should have taken this opportunity to go beyond consolidation of the legislation and gone into substantial revision in interpreting Mr Gould’s thinking and changing parts of the existing legislation. That would have involved the whole scope of consultation which was not possible in the time that was available. I am pleased that the coalition Government have continued the work that was started under the previous Government—and indeed that I started as Secretary of State. I welcomed Ron Gould’s recommendations in the main, although I did not welcome or accept all of them. I am pleased the coalition Government are setting about the painstaking and difficult work of implementing those recommendations.
I cannot avoid making one or two points because I think they have to be on the record. As I have said, I was the Secretary of State who received Mr Gould’s report via the Electoral Commission. I have to say that the environment in which that report was received was unedifying in many ways. Many people in Scottish politics were trying to avoid responsibility for what had happened in May 2007, and there was one particular pretty appalling attempt to load all the blame onto one individual. I will come back to that in a moment.
The Gould report, read properly, did not reflect well on Scottish political parties, or on the machinery that existed for conducting elections. It clearly was not able to accommodate the level of complexity that it had imposed upon itself by decisions and was not able to conduct the elections on the day—the joint elections with complicated ballot papers—in a way that ensured that everybody who turned up and properly presented themselves could vote. That was a collective failure, but there were many people who were scattering to the winds and re-writing history to avoid their responsibility for that time. However, problems in the machinery were identified, and I think that those problems were shared by all. I do not exclude the Electoral Commission or any of the other organisations, individual returning officers or some local authorities; everybody bore a share of that responsibility.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
My Lords, I again thank my noble friend for his exposition of not only the order, but also the Government’s reaction to the report of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments on the defective drafting of the order. It has to be said that this is a long, complex and not consumer-friendly order. It would be my recommendation that a proper guide to practice set out by this consolidating order should be made available to help the many people involved in elections in Scotland to find their way around the rules. Much of the order is drafted by reference to other Acts and other rules, sometimes with cross-references within the order. It cannot be an easy matter for those who have responsibility at a local level—not perhaps legal responsibility, but the responsibility of organising a campaign appropriately—to master the complexities of such things as who may obtain information about the forthcoming election, what are the limitations on the information that is required to be revealed and to whom. I think that a handbook, which needs not have the force of law but which is consistent with the order, would be a practical and helpful step to take.
Within this order, there are a number of useful changes. It is not purely a consolidating order. Although it is helpful to have the rules all contained in one order, it is also sensible to have made some of these changes. In particular, I believe that the extension of the timetables for holding elections and the different elements of the election make sense because it means that there will be less pressure of time on those who have responsibility for orderly conduct of the election. In the light of the experience in 2007, it makes sense to revert to the manual count. We cannot regard what happened then with anything other than dismay.
The order is also helpful in setting out the new limitations on pre-campaign expenditure. I assume it is the Government’s intention that any changes which may be required will take account of the current legislation, which is considering the possibility of a referendum being conducted on the same day, and will be included in the Act. But as the Government have indicated that there will need to be a new draft of this order to reflect their acceptance of the defective drafting, I hope that there will be an opportunity to consider the matter briefly in both Houses and consolidate the change at an appropriate time.
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova
My Lords, despite the blistering attack by the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan of Rogart, on the order and on the Explanatory Memorandum, we welcome the fact that the Government have continued the work of the previous Government in implementing the recommendations of the Gould report and the inquiry by the Scottish Affairs Committee. This is particularly so after the unfortunate experience in the 2007 Scottish elections to which the Minister has alluded.
There are, however, two aspects on which I wish to hear the Minister’s answers: first, the decision to combine the referendum with the Scottish parliamentary elections on the same day; and, secondly, the delay in bringing forward this electoral legislation. As he is aware, both these aspects do not gain the support of the recommendations of the Gould report.
The combination of the referendum and the Scottish parliamentary elections at least runs the risk of creating voter confusion similar to that identified by Gould in the 2007 election arising out of the combination of local government and Scottish parliamentary elections. Gould reports such a combination as a disservice to the electorate. I shall be interested to hear the Minister’s answer as to why the UK referendum on alternative voting on the same day does not detract, to some degree, from the Scottish parliamentary issues and candidates, and, indeed, vice versa.
The other area of dissonance with the Gould report on which I also wish to hear the Minister’s answer is in respect of the delay in bringing the order forward. I share the concern of my noble friend Lord Browne of Ladyton on this point. I, of course, understand the crowding-in effect that can afflict government business; however, as the Government have made much of the aspiration to move to more efficient governance, I would observe that they have not met the Gould recommendation that electoral legislation should not be,
“applied to any election held within six months of the new provision coming into force”.
Given the unfortunate aspects of the 2007 Scottish parliamentary elections, it might have been hoped that the Government would have adhered to what Gould identified as,
“a practice found in the electoral laws in other countries”.
Is there a reason for this approach? As there was an opportunity to take a major initiative to rationalise Scottish parliamentary election legislation, I would be interested to hear why this recommendation has not been followed.
On the drafting infelicities to which my noble friend Lord Browne of Ladyton has already alluded, I took the Minister’s answer to be an acceptance that there is a systemic problem in the drafting. As my noble friend put it, this seems to be a symptom of a real problem in the process. Again I will be interested to hear the Minister’s answer to this analysis. I can well understand my noble friend’s disappointment in discovering so many infelicities as it was he who approved the task of consolidation of electoral legislation, the whole point of which is to bring everything together in a more understandable formation of legislation.
I also share my noble friend’s astonishment at the failure to consult the Law Society of Scotland. I also draw the Minister’s attention—he may be aware of this—to the fact that the Faculty of Advocates in Scotland can also provide useful views in relation to constitutional matters. I, like he, am a member of that body.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
I wonder if the noble and learned Lord would accept that a short guide could, in its appendix, refer to the relevant provisions of law, but that the guide itself need not be an expression of the law; it is simply a guide. A lot of lay people who are not lawyers have to understand the basic rules. These are obscure and cannot be easily abstracted from this document.
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova
That is certainly an ambition that I would applaud. It is the execution with which I perhaps have a degree of concern. When one has seen what has been done with the Explanatory Memorandum, even a short guide for the increase of understanding by ordinary lay people would help. It is a matter on which we will never know the answer, I suspect.
In conclusion, despite the points that I have made in relation to the matter so far, I welcome the useful changes that have been produced by the order, which should enable a more rational, modernised election process in Scotland.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have participated in this debate, notwithstanding some of their criticisms about the technical details and some of the content of the order. Nevertheless, they have welcomed the generality of the order and indicated their support for it. I shall try to deal with a number of the important, serious and constructive points that have been made, which merit a response. First, I will deal with perhaps the politically more controversial part—the elections being held on the same day as the proposed date of the referendum on the voting system to be used for the other place. The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, indicated that Mr Ron Gould, in his submission to a Select Committee in the other place, had made comments on this; and I accept that he expressed a preference for separate dates. However, it is important to put on the record that he said:
“The marking of yes or no on a referendum ballot is much easier to understand and carry out than the requirements of marking an STV ballot”,
which, of course, was the other ballot paper that voters had to fill in for the election in 2007. He went on to say that there were benefits to combination with reduced and higher turnout. He specifically said,
“I do not believe that the same factors which led to voter confusion and the large number of rejected ballots at the last Scottish Parliamentary and Municipal elections would arise if both the Parliamentary Election and the Referendum were held on the same date”.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I am significantly disappointed in the Minister, because I set exactly for him where the trap was and he walked right into it. In my view, it is entirely inappropriate to edit this man’s words. They have to be read in their entirety. The debate about his recommendations was bedevilled by the editing of his words, sometimes down to parts of paragraphs in order to make points. This man is an expert. He reported in full. He wrote a memorandum, every word of which I am sure he pored over, to the Scottish Affairs Select Committee. In the sentence immediately before the one that the noble and learned Lord chose to read, he clearly made the point that if a referendum was conducted at the same time as an election, it would overshadow the election, and that would not be an appropriate thing to do.
That is the argument that I make. Of course it is possible to conduct these two mechanisms at the same time. Of course it is possible for Scots to get their brains around putting Xs on different bits of paper in the right order. The point that he makes, which is consistently ignored, is one that has been made repeatedly to this coalition Government: they are doing a disservice to the Scottish Parliament, to the Scottish people and to their election by creating an environment in which another issue will overshadow that election. That is the point that he makes and the one that needs to be addressed.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I do not think that I walked into any trap; I acknowledged that Mr Gould had said that he would prefer a separate date.
I ask the noble Lord to reflect that the first election to the Scottish Parliament in 1999 was held just a matter of weeks after the NATO engagement in Kosovo. That issue dominated much of the election period. Indeed, he will no doubt recall the leader of the Scottish National Party starting the election campaign by saying that it was error of some proportion—I think he said that it was an unpardonable folly. That was a huge issue that dominated the news, but no one suggested at the time that it detracted from the proper discussion and debate about the issues that the new Scottish Parliament was going to debate.
The noble Lord will also recall that in 2003, some six weeks before the election, under the leadership of his right honourable friend Mr Tony Blair, this country invaded Iraq. The noble Lord supported it; I did not. Nevertheless, it was an issue of considerable importance—neither of us would disagree with that. The whole invasion campaign dominated the period of the Scottish election campaign. I do not think that anyone suggested that debates on the issues that the Scottish Parliament was responsible for, be that health, education, transport or local government, were in any way impeded and that politicians did not engage in those debates as they went to the hustings in the May 2003 election.
I suspect that, by comparison, however important we may think a referendum on the alternative vote system for the House of Commons is, in my view that does not compare in gravity with the invasion of Iraq. I have no doubt that when it comes to the lead-up to the election, the people of Scotland will be able to distinguish clearly between the issues involved in the election of Members to the Scottish Parliament and the issue that they will be asked to address of how the other place should be elected in future.
The noble Lord seemed to suggest in his remarks that it was a constitutional outrage to link two polling opportunities together. He will no doubt recall, or maybe he does not, that in May 1998 the Government, of which I suspect he was not a member then but was subsequently a member, actually combined the referendum on the London mayor with the London local elections. I look back and consider that the general election of 2001 was linked to the local elections; indeed, they were both moved—at least, the local elections were moved and the general election piggybacked them—to June 2001 because of foot and mouth disease.
I think that I am right in saying that in 2009 the Government of which the noble Lord had recently ceased to be a member moved the local elections to coincide with the European election, and that the right honourable gentleman Gordon Brown was quite happy this year to combine the general election with the English elections that were already taking place. The combination of elections is not exactly unprecedented; there has been quite a lot of it in recent times.
Lord Davidson of Glen Clova
While it is always fascinating to have a lengthy analysis of many things that have nothing whatever to do with the Scottish parliamentary elections, I remind the Minister, if he is going to continue with this theme for many more minutes, that the Gould report dealt with the point that if one has two particular votes being made at the same time, the concern is that there would be a dominance of one campaign by the other. He considered that it was wholly inappropriate to have the Scottish parliamentary contest potentially dominated by another election or vice versa, as I indicated earlier. If the Minister might answer that particular point as opposed to proceeding with his historical analysis, we might gain some light on the matter.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
The only reason I proceeded with an historical analysis was that the noble and learned Lord’s noble friend said that it was “almost unprecedented”. I was identifying a number of occasions on which it had happened, under the auspices of the Government of which both noble Lords were, at some time, members.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
The coincidence of elections with foot and mouth, or with events such as conflicts, may be things we have to live through. I understand all that. I will not rehearse a speech I made at a Committee stage; the Minister was in the House when I made it. My point then was that I concede that there are, in some circumstances, arguments for what I call analogous elections, where the same parties are competing broadly over the same body of policies, either at local, regional, mayoral or national elections. There is some argument for combining them. My point, which I thought he understood, was that there is a strong body of academic, analytic and political opinion that says, “To conduct a referendum, which because of the nature of a referendum involves cross-party working and confusion, potentially against a background of party-political politics, with a party-political contest, is designed to confuse”. My point in the other debate, which I will allude to briefly, was that, particularly in Scotland, where our media is and will be dominated by arguments from London, this will do an extraordinary disservice to the Scottish people and the Scottish Parliament. Of all Members of this House, the Minister, having been a Member of that Parliament, and knowing how much it is valued by the people of Scotland, should recognise that. He should have listened to that Parliament’s view.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I am not sure about the confluence of interests between a European election and local elections; they are somewhat far apart. However, I take the noble Lord’s views that referendums are somewhat different. Of course, he will no doubt give us an explanation of why the Government in which he served brought together a referendum with local elections in 1998.
On what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Davidson, said, I indicated in my earlier remarks to the noble Lord, Lord Browne, that I have fought two elections to the Scottish Parliament in 1999 and 2003, both against the backdrop of war. It did not impede the people of Scotland from being able to address and identify what the issues were in the election. The fact that there is a concurrent referendum campaign in May next year will in no way impede them from evaluating from what the parties are putting before them—nor, indeed, from making up their own minds as to whether they wish the alternative vote system to be used for future elections to the other place or not.
I fully understand the absence of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, as I am sure that he wishes to be in the Scottish Parliament today to express his support for the Scotland Bill. He has amendments tabled for later stages in Committee on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, and I rather suspect that this argument has got some way to go yet.
On the timing, the order will not be made until within six months. Nevertheless, the order was also laid within the six months. Subject to the typographical errors in the draft, it will be the same order that had been laid and circulated to political parties, returning officers and electoral administration officers. Therefore, while the form did not meet the six months, the substance certainly did. I hope that noble Lords will accept that. The timetable was set in motion by the previous Administration. I have no criticism of that, but it was always going to be very tight.