John Bercow
Main Page: John Bercow (Speaker - Buckingham)(13 years, 4 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Vince Cable
I will take interventions later. You have asked, Mr Speaker, that both Front Benchers should keep their introductions brief. [Interruption.] As hon. Members know, I am very happy to take interventions, but I will take them when I have developed an argument. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. The Secretary of State should resume his seat for a moment, and I apologise for having to interrupt him.
There are strong opinions on this matter, and passions are aroused. That is understood and accepted. What is not accepted by any democrat is that the Secretary of State should not receive a fair hearing. The right hon. Gentleman will be heard, and if Members are making a noise and then expecting to be called, I fear that is a triumph of optimism over reality.
Vince Cable
When I became Secretary of State, I invited Lord Browne to make two adaptations to the terms of reference that he had undertaken under the previous Government. The first thing that I asked him to do was to see how we could make the existing system of graduate payments more progressive and more related to future graduates’ ability to pay. He undertook to do that, and we have done further work to develop the progressivity of the system. As a result, the Institute for Fiscal Studies was able to conclude that the package that we have produced is more progressive than the existing system and more progressive than the Browne report. Concretely, what that means is that just a little under 25% of all future graduates will pay less than they do under the current system that we inherited from the Labour Government.
Vince Cable
For the funding of universities, Lord Browne recommended—in a report that the then Labour Government endorsed, I think, in their manifesto—that there should be no cap on university fees and a specific proposal for a clawback mechanism that gave universities an incentive to introduce fees of up to a level of £15,000 a year. That was the report given to the Government. We have rejected those recommendations and proposed instead that we proceed as the statutory instrument describes. That involves the introduction of a fee cap of £6,000, rising to £9,000 in exceptional circumstances.
I will now explain the basic economics of that problem in the light of the intervention from the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw).
Mr Speaker
Order. Just before the Secretary of State replies, let me say that an enormous number of Members wish to speak in this debate. I want to accommodate as many as possible. From now on, interventions must be brief.
Vince Cable
Yes, of course I hear what the hon. Lady says about the education maintenance allowance. What I would say is that the existing system that we inherited was enormously wasteful. Large numbers of pupils received the EMA who did not need it to stay on at school. However, she is quite right to stress the fact that there are large pockets of deprivation in Britain, and her constituency in the east end of London is one of them. We understand that. The purpose of the pupil premium, which is being introduced into the school system, is precisely to address that problem of giving support to schools and pupils in areas of high deprivation.
Vince Cable
Opposition Members who follow these arguments closely have often made the following argument. “We acknowledge,” they say, “that universities will continue to have high levels of income, but you’re replacing public funding with private funding, and this is”—in some sense—“ideological.” [Hon. Members: “It is!”] That is a debating point, and I am happy to take it on. At present, roughly 60% of the income of universities comes from the public sector, through different funding streams. The rest comes from private sources—something that the previous Government were trying to encourage. That will be reversed: in future, roughly 40% of university funding will come from the public sector and 60% will come from the private sector. I am keen to encourage more private funding of universities, which is why I have spoken to the director general of the CBI. He is approaching all his members to ensure that we have a significantly higher level of employer support for apprenticeships, sandwich courses and other—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. First, there is still far too much noise in the Chamber. Secondly, when the Secretary of State has indicated that he is not giving way, Members must not continue standing. That is the situation.
Vince Cable
I hope that not too many Opposition Members would regard additional funding from employers as somehow ideologically contaminated, because we will need more resources going into universities, not less, and that is what we are doing.
Vince Cable
That is a highly pertinent question in the light of the experience of the last Government, who had a two-tier system. There was a migration of all universities to the top of the range. They operated, in effect, like a cartel, and that must be stopped. It must not happen again, and there are several means by which that will happen. First, any university that wants to go beyond £6,000 will have to satisfy very demanding tests of access for low-income families, including through the introduction of the scholarship scheme. Newer institutions, particularly further education colleges providing accredited courses, will drive down the cost of high quality basic teaching. If universities defy the principle of operating on a competitive cost basis, it may well be necessary to introduce additional measures to observe the principle that my hon. Friend has correctly summarised, which is that—
Mr Speaker
Order. I apologise for interrupting the Secretary of State, but I must ask him to address the House. His natural courtesy causes him to look at the Member to whom he is responding, but I want the whole House to hear what he has to say.
Vince Cable
I am simply saying that there are potentially other mechanisms by which universities that exceed the £6,000 level will not be allowed to behave in the way that they behaved under the last Government.
Mr Speaker
The Secretary of State is not giving way at the moment and must be allowed to continue—[Interruption.] Order. He must be allowed to continue his argument.
Vince Cable
As well as the measures we have taken to improve access for low-income families, as opposed to the separate problem of low-income graduates, we have made it clear that additional grant provision will be made, as I said in response to an earlier intervention. In addition, universities wishing to move to a higher threshold will have demanding tests applied to their offer requirements in respect of access.
It is worth recalling the situation that we have inherited. There are a lot of crocodile tears from Labour Members, so let me remind them that social mobility, judged by the number of people from disadvantaged backgrounds getting into Russell group universities, has deteriorated over the last decade. There are currently 80,000 free school meal pupils, of whom only 40 made it to Oxbridge —40 out of 80,000. That is fewer than from some of the leading independent schools. That is a shameful inheritance from people who claim to be concerned about disadvantaged backgrounds—and we intend to rectify it.
Let me conclude in this way. I do not pretend—none of us pretends—that this is an easy subject. Of course it is not. We have had to make very difficult choices. [Interruption.] Yes, we have. We could have taken easier options, but we were insistent that at the end, we would make a substantial—
Mr Donohoe
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Did not the Secretary of State say that he was going to give way? Why is he not doing so?
Mr Speaker
I understand what the hon. Gentleman has said, but that is not a point of order; it is a point of frustration.
Vince Cable
I have given way to several of the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues and several of my own, and I now wish to summarise where we are.
As I was saying, there have been difficult choices to make. We could have made a decision drastically to cut the number of university students; we could have cut student maintenance; we could have cut the funding to universities, without replacing it. Instead, we have opted for a set of policies that provides a strong base for university funding and makes a major contribution to reducing the deficit, while introducing a significantly more progressive system of graduate payments than we inherited. I am proud to put forward that measure to this House. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. [Interruption.] Order. [Interruption.] Order. I understand the passions, but the more noise, the greater the delay and the fewer the number of Members who will have a chance to contribute. I want Back Benchers to have the chance to contribute and I appeal to right hon. and hon. Members to help me to help them.
Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. On Monday, I tabled three named day questions relating to the evidence underpinning Government policy. They were about what studies the Government have commissioned about the potential impact of these higher fees on participation, particularly on longer courses such as languages, medicine, law and architecture and on post-graduate teaching courses. Those questions were due for answer at noon today, but answer has come there none. What can the House do, Mr Speaker, to ensure that Government better inform us with vital information so that we can properly debate subjects like this, which are of interest to the whole nation?
Mr Speaker
The hon. Gentleman knows that I am in favour of timely replies to parliamentary questions. He is an experienced hand in this House and must pursue these matters through the Table Office and in other ways; we cannot be detained now by what he has just said.
Mr Speaker
I have imposed a six-minute limit on Back-Bench contributions with immediate effect.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Will you give the House some guidance? The Business Secretary has come to the Dispatch Box to tell us how progressive and fair the system that the Government are imposing on thousands of students across the country is, but he has recently been quoted in a Liberal Democrat leaflet that has gone out in Scotland as saying not only that it is akin to the poll tax but that it is incredibly unfair—
Mr Speaker
Order. I have listened to the first two or three sentences of the hon. Gentleman’s attempted point of order, but I am afraid that it is not a point of order. He has put his concern on the record. I appeal to hon. Members to have regard for each other’s interests. I want to accommodate as many Members as possible, starting with Mr David Evennett.
Mr Blunkett
No, I will not. I pray in aid the Institute for Fiscal Studies, because when it discussed this scheme it said that the system generates perverse incentives. For example, the national scholarship fund provides a financial incentive for universities to reject students when they charge more than £6,000. In other words, the higher-level universities will end up rejecting students from poorer backgrounds—the exact opposite of what has been argued this afternoon. The position is very clear: the scheme is designed to change the architecture of higher education in this country. It is ideologically based, not logically based—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I apologise for interrupting the right hon. Gentleman. Stop the clock. Point of order, Mr Dan Byles.
Dan Byles
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Is it in order for the right hon. Gentleman to make such a personal remark, suggesting that I might not understand how difficult it is to get up early to go to work? When I was a soldier, I used to get up considerably before 6 am to serve my country.
Mr Speaker
The hon. Gentleman must resume his seat. The short answer to his question is, yes, it is a matter of debate and, however irritated he might feel, that was not a point of order. We must conduct the debate in an orderly way.
Mr Blunkett
The answer is very simple. More of my constituents and those who visit my advice surgery understand those issues than do those of Government Members. That is a simple fact, and that is why this is a value-laden, ideological issue, not one of rationality, not one of deficit-reduction—
Mr Speaker
Order. In view of the level of interest, after the next speaker has spoken I am afraid I am imposing a new limit of four minutes on Back-Benchers’ speeches to try to get as many in as possible. I call Naomi Long. Six minutes.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
I tried to intervene on the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) as I wanted to correct some of his figures before he started scaremongering. The university of Cambridge takes 15% of students from ethnic minority backgrounds as compared with 10% across the country. He spoke about the one British black Caribbean student out of the 35 applying who gained admission to Oxford university, but failed to mention the 23 black Africans, the three other black students, the seven white and black Caribbean students, the seven white and black Africans, the 35 others of mixed descent and the nine others or, indeed, those directly from the Caribbean—
Mr Speaker
Order. Interventions must be a lot briefer from now onwards. That is very unfair to other Members.
Mr McFadden
We are probably all agreed that the top universities can and should do more to attract ethnic minority students.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) said, there are some good points in the Browne report. Browne was right to maintain the position whereby fees are not paid up front by students, but by graduates and only after they start earning. This has been portrayed as a new change in the system, but it is not; it has been there since the 2004 changes, although it is still widely misunderstood. Browne is also right to increase the repayment threshold and to include part-time students in the system. Let us be clear, given that the point about part-time students has been portrayed as some great gift from the Government, that the Labour Government explicitly built that into the terms of reference for the Browne review.
It is also right to place a greater emphasis on providing more and better information for students about the quality of courses and teaching. If students are being asked to pay more, they deserve more power within the system, even if that is sometimes uncomfortable for academics or institutions.
Geraint Davies
I think that Members of all parties are worried that there may be civil unrest as a result of the way in which this is being railroaded—
Mr Willetts
If I may say so, that was a disgraceful intervention.
The Government are committed to explaining how our proposals are progressive, how they will improve social mobility and how they will give our universities secure financial backing for the future. Members on both sides of the House have asked about the speed with which we are implementing our proposals. In fact, that was the Opposition’s main point—they want more time for a review and a Green Paper. I should explain to the House that the proposals emerge from Lord Browne’s review, which was set up by the Labour Government more than a year ago. The inquiry took evidence in public and received evidence from Members of all parties. We believe that we are implementing proposals—[Interruption.]
Mr Willetts
I was explaining how we have not rushed our proposals. They were based on a report that was introduced and commissioned by Labour a year ago. The changes will not come into force for the first generation of students until September 2012. It is necessary to take the financing decisions now so that universities can plan for them. If we do not take those decisions now, students and universities will find that universities have less grant, and that they are unable to replace it with income from students, which is what we are introducing—that is the key feature of our proposals.
We often hear Opposition Members talk about the loss of teaching grant, but they do not talk about the other side of the proposal—the extra money that can come to universities through the choices of students. We trust students. Taxpayers will provide students with the money to pay the fees. That will ensure that universities can continue to enjoy the levels of income that they enjoy at the moment. That money will not be handed out from Whitehall; it will come from the choices of students.
We believe that those students will continue to choose arts and humanities. There is no bias against arts and humanities—[Interruption.] Our proposals are equitable, and we believe that they will ensure that students can choose the courses that they wish.