The Future of Pubs

Andrew Turner Excerpts

Thursday 9th December 2010 Westminster Hall

[Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

Thank you, Mr Benton, for the opportunity to speak in this debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley) on securing it.

I would like to raise awareness of the problems facing local pubs. In recent years, there has been a steady decline in the number of pubs. Last year, local pubs across the country were closing down at the rate of 52 a week. There are many reasons for such closures. Obviously, some will be unavoidable. If a pub becomes financially unviable due to major competition, that cannot necessarily be handled. However, we have a large problem with pubs facing closure due to private investors buying them, not to run them as pubs, or with the intention of investing in them to help them become successful businesses, but with the intention of closing them to renovate them and turn them into numerous flats, which can be sold on to make some quick money.

I saw that with a local pub in my constituency on the Isle of Wight. The Partlands was a popular pub that was turned into flats. Such closures are having a negative effect on local communities up and down the country. The pub has traditionally been a focal point for local communities. Closing local pubs is killing village life.

[Andrew Griffiths]

I recognise my hon. Friend’s concern about pubs closing, but does he also recognise that many other buildings are being converted into pubs? In my constituency, an ex-high street bank has been turned into a pub. One sees many commercial premises being reinvented as drinking establishments. We should not get particularly hung up about the building, but should instead consider the facilities that it offers.

[Mr Turner]

My hon. Friend is right, but the new pubs tend to be in the centre of town, whereas the existing pubs tend to be in the suburbs. That makes a difference.

[Neil Carmichael]

Frankly, that is a very important point, all the more so because the Minister with responsibility for planning is listening to this debate and will, no doubt, respond to it. The point is that we need to introduce a localism element to encourage communities to start new pubs, and to ensure that they thrive and prosper. There is plenty of scope, I trust, in the decentralisation and localism Bill for that to happen, and this debate will strengthen that case.

[Mr Turner]

My hon. Friend is certainly right there. It is true that pubs open and close, and some pubs close and open. One on the island was the Sun Inn, Hulverstone, which reopened as a pub after people tried to get planning permission to make it a home. They failed to get that planning permission, and the property was pushed back to being a pub. It is a very successful pub.

[Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)]

After many closures, one additional problem is that people can seek planning permission for many years. In villages, in particular, that can leave a gaping hole in the heart of the community, as properties remain boarded up for years, and I can think of many examples in my constituency. If we are too restrictive about planning permission, I worry that nothing will ever happen. However, I am pleased that the Minister with responsibility for planning is here, and I encourage him to find ways, through the localism Bill, of bringing such premises back into use, preferably as pubs, because, more than anything, I hate to see a gaping hole in the heart of a community.

[Mr Turner]

My hon. Friend is right. We must do what we need to in each village, and what is needed in one village might be different from what the next village needs. We must do that in a way that takes note of pubs, wherever they are.

The developments that I have described can lead to communities fraying, and to their members losing contact with each other. They can also lead to the scenario faced in many large cities, where people have little contact with their pubs. We must protect pubs from that threat, and the best way to do that is to restrict investors’ ability to buy pubs with the intention of closing them. That is the worst kind of purchase, and we must reduce the ease with which planning permission is granted for such changes.

We must also look at the fact that local pubs are becoming increasingly expensive and their competitiveness with other pubs is being reduced through compulsory ties. Such ties involve landlords renting pubs at high prices from large companies that then include in the contract clauses that force the pubs to buy their drinks from specific breweries. That forces landlords to raise their prices to cover their costs and to ensure that the pub is still profitable. However, that then leads many people—especially those feeling the effects of cuts and job losses—to avoid such pubs. We must therefore do more to help landlords maintain pubs and to reduce the burden that large companies, supermarkets and the law put on them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Greg Mulholland]

I thank my hon. Friend for that point, but she is lucky. Clearly her council appreciates the importance of pubs, but many councils do not, and I am afraid that Leeds city council is one with a poor record of defending them.

[Mr Turner]

It depends very much on local ability. The Sun Inn at Hulverstone, which I mentioned a moment or two ago, is an example: members of the planning committee knew that they could do something, although the planners told them that they could not.

[Greg Mulholland]

I am pleased that my hon. Friend raised that point, because I have had the same experience in Leeds, with planning officers telling councillors on the plans panel that the pub had no status and that viability could not be a planning concern, while at the same time councils around the country have taken the action in question. There is confusion, so we want to give the message, and empower councils. We want to give them the opportunity to take such action where they think it is important. I urge all right hon. and hon. Members to support the Bill, and the community pubs Minister to take those points forward if the Bill should fall, which I hope it will not.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Griffiths]

I thank my hon. Friend for raising that issue. That is true. I have met Asda and Tesco and some of the other supermarkets. It is important to realise, however, that the devil is in the detail. When we talk about below-cost selling, we need a proper definition of what that means. Asda advocates a below-cost selling method of duty plus VAT. That would be the equivalent of a bottle of wine being sold for £1.90 or a can of lager for 42p. I do not know about my hon. Friend, but I think that that is too cheap. If someone can tell me where I can buy a bottle of wine for £1.90, I might be interested to go and sample some of those wares—responsibly, of course.

[Mr Andrew Turner]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for letting me intervene again. Does he accept that many years ago there were things called off-licences? Off-licences seem to have controlled things rather better than supermarkets. What is different?

[Andrew Griffiths]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. The difference is bulk buying, and the power of supermarkets to drive down the price for the brewers is the crucial factor. Earlier in the debate we heard about the methods used by supermarkets to force down prices paid to our dairy farmers, and we have seen a drastic reduction in the price that they receive at the farm gate.