Charlie Elphicke
Main Page: Charlie Elphicke (Independent - Dover)
Mr Denham
I want to make some progress on the issue of fairness, because I believe that it lies at the heart of many of the Government’s arguments and of questions raised by Members in all parts of the House. The Government say that their proposal is fairer, and that it is better for low-income graduates. The Deputy Prime Minister has said:
“The bottom 25% of earners will pay much less in their contributions to their university education than they do at the moment.”—[Official Report, 10 November 2010; Vol. 518, c. 281.]
The Prime Minister said yesterday:
“With our new system, the poorest quarter of graduates will pay back less overall than they do currently.”
He also said:
“The poorest will pay less, the richest will pay more.”—[Official Report, 8 December 2010; Vol. 520, c. 281.]
Over the last 24 hours, we have seen a parade of conscience-stricken Ministers saying that they just have to hang on to ministerial office—they just have to keep their red boxes and their cars—because this is really such a good deal for low-income graduates. They will all be better off, they say. When I heard the Prime Minister say yesterday that trebling fees would leave everyone better off, I thought, “I’ve heard that voice before somewhere.” I could not place it at first, but last night I remembered. He is the bloke who does those advertisements on day-time television. You know the ones: “Have you got bad debts, credit card bills, county court judgments against you? Let us wrap them all into one simple payment and reduce your monthly payments.” We all know what is wrong with those advertisements. People are charged higher rates of interest, and end up paying much more. That is exactly what the Prime Minister is proposing today.
We all know what is wrong with the Prime Minister’s claims. Let us now have a look at the Government’s claims. Labour Members do not accept the Government’s comparisons between their scheme and ours—[Interruption.] I mean their comparisons between their scheme and the current scheme. We think that they have chosen their assumptions to produce the figures that they want. Many people do not realise that the £15,000 threshold set in 2006 is the same in real terms as the £21,000 threshold that will start in 2016.
Let us look at the Government’s figures none the less. They say that a graduate in the bottom 10% will pay less, but how much less? What is the change that has led the Deputy Prime Minister, the Prime Minister and many other Ministers to say that the new system is so fair and so wonderful? According to the Government’s own dodgy figures, the poorest 10% of graduates will pay an average of just £88 a year less—£1.60 a week. As the advertisement says, every little helps; but to see Members of Parliament, including Ministers, sell their consciences for just £88 a year is a tragedy.
If the Government’s real aim were to ease the pressure on the lowest-paid graduates, I would support it. The Government would have needed to make only minor changes to the current scheme to achieve that aim. However, nothing about the tiny benefit for the lowest-income graduates justifies doubling or trebling the debt of the vast majority of graduates. The IFS yesterday said that graduates from the 30% of poorest households would pay more. The heaviest burden will fall on graduates on average earnings; they will be the hardest hit in terms of how much of their earnings they will have to pay over the coming years. They will be hit harder than the graduates who go into the highest paid jobs. That is what the House of Commons Library says. That is what London Economics says. That is also what somebody to whom the House might wish to listen has said. Many Members will remember David Rendel, who for many years was the Member for Newbury and the higher education spokesman of the Liberal Democrats. In an e-mail I have received, he says the following to a number of his colleagues:
“There are those who are claiming that the current proposals are progressive. But this is only the case if by “progressive” you mean that in any one year richer graduates will pay more than poorer graduates. For all the middle- and higher-earning graduates, over their lifetimes the more they earn the less they pay. Since a very large part of the justification of charging tuition fees is the higher lifetime earnings of graduates…a scheme in which graduates with large lifetime earnings pay less than graduates with comparatively small lifetime earnings cannot be regarded as either progressive or fair. (In this regard”—
says the former higher education spokesman for the Liberal Democrats—
“the new proposals, because they include a real-terms interest charge, are in fact more regressive than Labour’s scheme!).”
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
I pay tribute to the right hon. Gentleman for his honesty and candour in making a substantial spending commitment. Will he tell the House how much?
Mr Denham
The hon. Gentleman has clearly not been listening. I have been talking about the changes that were open to his party to make.
It is because the average graduates going into typical jobs will get hit hardest compared with the highest-earning graduates, that we will need a fairer system of graduate contribution in the years to come.
Mr Sheerman
We tend to get passionate in debates on such things. In fact nobody won the election. The Conservative party did not win the election because it did not get a majority. I was reflecting on that matter. When I used to teach politics in a university, I can remember many people arguing that it would be wonderful to have a coalition because it would temper the debate. People would not rush into daft policy because the minority party would say, “Hold your horses. We’re not sure of this. Let’s think carefully, let’s do research and let’s talk to the people in the sector.” That is what we thought a coalition Government might do. I do not know if I was ever really persuaded of what a coalition would do. I believe that coalition Government leads to weak leadership, weak Government and some people getting their way by trampling on democracy. The higher education sector in this country is the best in the world. I think it is better than in America. The US might get more international students but, pound for pound, professor for professor, student for student, we have the best system in the world.
Charlie Elphicke
The hon. Gentleman is making a very principled speech. Does he agree that if the election had been won by the Labour party, the chances are that it would have implemented the Browne review?
Mr Sheerman
I do not believe that at all. Let me be straight with the hon. Gentleman. I believe that there is a great deal of strength in the Browne report. It refers to a deferred payment system, which is not a bad system. There are some good elements in the report. I like the section on part-time students and the fact that we will no longer pay a massive interest subsidy to people who do not need it in terms of the zero interest rate. There are some good things in Browne. If we could have had a conversation about the matter, we might, for once, have got some all-party agreement on the side of higher education, which is absolutely central to the future wealth, progress and happiness of this country—happiness is the favour of the moment, is it not?
If we pass the legislation, we will make some mistakes today that will punish people in this country, demoralise higher education and put us down the league in terms of our university sector. I hope that hon. Members vote against the measure tonight.