Live Debate: Commons Chamber

Q8. What recent assessment he has made of the potential impact of the time taken by the Building Safety Regulator on critical infrastructure. (900405)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Question eight, please. >> Minister thank you, Mr. Speaker. We're working closely with the Department of Health and Social Care and NHS England to make sure Care and NHS England to make sure the building safety regulator aids delivery of critical NHS infrastructure. This includes introducing a dedicated team within the BSR to focus specifically on hospitals, as well as producing targeted guidance for NHS trusts.

15:03

Samantha Dixon MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Chester North and Neston, Labour)

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Devon Ellis. grateful to the Minister's department for their work with me. On unblocking a major housing scheme in my constituency. She rightly mentioned challenges with the BSR now and major health facilities. I was pleased to hear what she said, but can I really ask her to work as closely as possible with the Department of Health? with the Department of Health? Because we need to see these new NHS buildings being built, just as we need the new homes to be built.

Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Minister.

15:03

Rt Hon Anneliese Dodds MP (Oxford East, Labour )

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm sorry to hear about the delays and problems in my hon. Friend's constituency, and I want to reassure her. We take we're taking serious action on this particular matter, so I will work closely with the Department for Health and Social Social Care, as well as the BSR to try and improve the BSR to try and improve the situation for her.

15:03

Samantha Dixon MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Chester North and Neston, Labour)

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Thanks, madam.

15:04

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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Mr. speaker, my Department is working closely with the Department for transport to consider reforms to adoption and highways frameworks. to adoption and highways frameworks. We also recently consulted on reducing the prevalence of private estate management arrangements, including proposals to increase the including proposals to increase the adoption of estate amenities such as roads on new developments. That consultation closed on the 12th of March and we're analysing the feedback received.

15:04

Alex Mayer MP (Dunstable and Leighton Buzzard, Labour)

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Alex Mayer thank you, Mr. Speaker. Residents in Forest Grove have been battling for ten years to get a piece of land adopted that is strewn with litter elsewhere in my strewn with litter elsewhere in my constituency, roads are not gritted during the winter months. We've got an area where they can't get a postbox in Bidwell West and where a car crashed into a house. We can't get any speed humps. What can the Minister do to put some pressure on the council to hurry up?

15:04

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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Minister? particularly egregious cases, and my hon. Friend is right to highlight the detrimental consequences of declining road adoption rates. The DfT is adoption rates. The DfT is reviewing barriers to adoption, with a view to identifying improvements and informing future reforms. Alongside the consultation I referenced, when it comes to individual local authorities, we've put it mildly some are better than others. We know that Central Bedfordshire obviously has some ground to make up, but that's one of the issues we're considering as part of the policy development process in respect of that consultation.

15:05

John Milne MP (Horsham, Liberal Democrat)

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John Milne thank. >> John Milne thank. >> You, Mr. Speaker. In my constituency of Horsham, we have to deal with increasing numbers of unadopted roads, either because the unadopted roads, either because the developer wants to leave it with an estate manager, which means an annual charge, or because the road does not meet the construction does not meet the construction standard to satisfy the local highways department. Both issues are ripe for exploitation of residents. So will the Minister consider issuing guidance to control these abuses?

15:05

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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We will do better than that, Mr. Speaker. We consulted very specifically as part of our consultation on ending the prevalence of these particular arrangements. What more we can do arrangements. What more we can do in terms of common adoptable standards and exploring mandatory adoption for certain public amenities in certain circumstances? If the hon. Gentleman has read the CMA report into this issue, he will know that the two are absolutely essential. We can't mandate local authorities until we've got common adoptable standards. If that's the

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route we go down, we have to do them both at the same time. Mr. Tottenham, question number. Ten, Mr. Speaker.

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Minister. Mr. speaker, Mhclg Ministers

15:06

Q10. What recent discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the introduction of a licensing scheme for short-term lets. (900408)

>> Mr. speaker, Mhclg Ministers engage regularly with ministerial colleagues across government in relation to a range of housing policy matters. We continue to

15:06

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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policy matters. We continue to consider what additional powers we might give local authorities to enable them to respond to the pressures created by short term

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pressures created by short term lets, as well as second homes. Thank you. Mr. Speaker. In my constituency, Whitby is being hollowed out by short term lets. Bordered by the sea and a national park house

15:06

Alison Hume MP (Scarborough and Whitby, Labour)

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building cannot solve the problem of a lack of affordable housing for residents. We must also release residents. We must also release more existing homes for families in the town. Can the Minister commit to ensuring licensing for short term lets will be legislated for at the earliest opportunity in this the earliest opportunity in this Parliament as registration schemes, whilst welcome, will not be robust enough to tackle the problem.

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Mr. I thank my hon. Friend for her question. Mr. speaker, let me be clear. There is no credible solution to the housing crisis that does not involve significantly boosting housing supply, but my hon. Friend is absolutely right to argue

15:07

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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that the distribution of homes in any given area has a significant bearing on housing availability and bearing on housing availability and affordability. As she knows, the government has already made changes to the tax system to reorientate the housing market away from second the housing market away from second home owners and investors, and towards local people looking for homes to live in. While I'm afraid I can't commit to future I can't commit to future legislation, I can assure her that we continue to consider how best we ensure that local planning

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authorities have the full set of tools they need to manage challenges of the kind she's described. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last week I met representatives from 22 town and parish councils, all deeply concerned that new government policies are curtailing their power over planning decisions, and also at the lack of truly

15:08

Caroline Voaden MP (South Devon, Liberal Democrat)

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affordable homes for locals. I understand the government has has a house building target, but the house building target, but the housing crisis in South Devon is being exacerbated by the spread of second homes and holiday lets, removing even former council homes removing even former council homes from the market and leading to a shortage in rental properties. However, we do not know the true However, we do not know the true extent of the issue without the short term registration scheme. So when will the department introduce

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the register so we can control short term holiday lets in our rural and coastal towns? Yeah.

15:08

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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Minister Mr. Speaker, my department is not responsible for the national registration scheme for short term lets. That's DCMS. They are committed to implementing it as soon as possible. When it is implemented, it will capture any implemented, it will capture any property used as a short term rental accommodation, including. And I think this is really important. Second homes which operate as short term loans.

15:08

Q11. What steps he is taking to implement safeguards for pre-candidacy donations. (900409)

Or Tottenham. >> Stafford Mr. Speaker, we've introduced the representation of the people. >> Bill, which will close loopholes that could allow foreign money to enter UK politics and undermine trust. Alongside these measures, we are considering the Ryecroft review's recommendations, including on candidate donations, and will set out our full response shortly.

15:09

Samantha Dixon MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Chester North and Neston, Labour)

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Mr. speaker.

15:09

Lloyd Hatton MP (South Dorset, Labour)

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I told you that just before the general election, a soon to be MP had pocketed a £5 million cash gift had pocketed a £5 million cash gift from a crypto crypto billionaire living halfway across the world and soon after receiving this lucrative soon after receiving this lucrative gift, the very same politician had then announced a new policy to slash taxes for the crypto industry. Well, Mr. Speaker, you might think that something concerning is going on. So does the Minister agree that no British politician should be for sale to the highest bidder? And will they commit to using the elections bill to slam the door shut on secret cash gifts to senior politicians?

15:09

Samantha Dixon MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Chester North and Neston, Labour)

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Minister thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> Minister thank you, Mr. Speaker. The government is clear that the integrity and transparency of our political system must be protected. political system must be protected. The rules we have in place are designed to ensure that political donations are free from, from, from legitimate sources and are properly declared. However, we recognise the need to ensure our rules remain effective and address emerging risks. We are already delivering a package of reforms through the Representation of the People Bill, and will also consider the recommendations from the right of review and work with the Electoral Commission and others to ensure the system remains resilient for the future.

15:10

Q12. What recent assessment his Department has made of trends in the level of exit fees for retirement homes. (900410)

Umbrella number. >> 12. Mr. speaker. >> Mr. Mr Speaker event fees should be fair, transparent and communicated effectively. The government continues to give government continues to give careful consideration to the recommendations set out in the Older People's Housing Task Force Final report, including in respect of implementing the Law Commission's 2017 recommendations to regulate event fees. to regulate event fees.

15:10

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A constituent of mine has been unable to wind up his late uncle's estate since 2023. The shared ownership retirement plan, managed by Abbey in Poundbury, is incurring 1500 £0 in service charges. Even if they do in service charges. Even if they do find a buyer, those charges, plus the exit fees, are effectively going to wipe out any value from going to wipe out any value from the sale. So what steps is the government taking to tackle excessive service charges and ban excessive service charges and ban exit fees in the retirement housing sector?

15:11

Edward Morello MP (West Dorset, Liberal Democrat)

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Minister. really important issue. We did consult last year on a package of measures to strengthen leaseholder protections that included around the use of event fees, and will be responding to that consultation, hopefully in the near future. On resale values more widely. They are influenced by a range of factors, influenced by a range of factors, but the Older People's Housing Task Force, which I earlier referenced, commented on resale values and what commented on resale values and what might be done, a series of recommendations which we are carefully considering.

15:11

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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Thank you sir.

15:12

Baggy Shanker MP (Derby South, Labour )

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Unfair terms. leaving grieving families in Derby trapped, facing huge exit fees, whilst extortionate service charges on the empty property rack. Will on the empty property rack. Will the Minister support these families by addressing the unfair terms that they face when a parent or loved one passes away?

15:12

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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Minister. question. As I've just made clear, we are looking very carefully at resale values and to the older People's Housing Task Force People's Housing Task Force recommendations in this area. I wonder if he, as well as the hon. Member for West Dorset, might send me some of the examples they've referenced. Any evidence we can get on how this is affecting homeowners across the country and their families would be incredibly useful.

15:12

Lewis Cocking MP (Broxbourne, Conservative)

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Shadow Minister Lewis Cocking. >> Mr. Speaker, the Minister should also be considering the impact of the conveyancing process on this important issue. I've had many complaints from older people in my complaints from older people in my constituency about the lack of transparency from solicitors. Then families are hit with huge fees at families are hit with huge fees at the worst possible time. If people knew what they were signing up for, I'm sure that lots of these properties would never be solved. Would the Minister commit to going further than the older person's housing Taskforce report, and look closely at the conveyancing process?

15:13

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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Mr. forgot to welcome the hon. Gentleman to his place, which I do. He's diligently pursued the issue of conveyancing and buying and selling over many months, not least in his role in the Select Committee. I can't go further this Dispatch I can't go further this Dispatch Box than the fact that we are carefully considering the older People's Housing Task Force recommendations, but I'm more than happy to sit down with him and discuss this issue if he'd like to do so.

15:13

Q13. What steps he is taking to build more social and affordable homes in Blaydon and Consett constituency. (900411)

Leicester West question 13. >> Mr. Speaker. >> Minister me again, Mr. Speaker, we remain focussed on implementing the five step plan we published in the five step plan we published in July last year to deliver a decade of social and affordable housing renewal. We received incredibly renewal. We received incredibly ambitious bids for our 39 billion social and Affordable Homes programme, and we're in the process of assessing them with a view to a timely announcement of allocations. And, Mr. Speaker, as you know, our social housing bill, which will give affordable housing providers give affordable housing providers the clarity and confidence they need to build more social homes, is also making good progress in the Other place.

Other place.

15:14

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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Leicester West Mr. Speaker, for 14 years, the Conservatives presided over a housebuilding crisis that locked a generation out of home ownership and left social housing in short supply. In Blaydon and Consett. My constituents have been calling for years for more social and affordable housing to be built. Will the Minister tell me built. Will the Minister tell me how this government are going to the extra mile to ensure that we deliver on the calls of my deliver on the calls of my constituents for more social homes? Yes, Minister.

15:14

Liz Twist MP (Blaydon and Consett, Labour)

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My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I'd go further than she did. I think the previous government deliberately set out to engineer the decline of social rented housing in this country, and not least through the reforms that they made to the right to buy, which we made to the right to buy, which we are reversing through that social housing bill. As I make clear to my hon. Friend, we received ambitious bids from affordable housing providers across the country. That includes in the North East that will allow councils and housing associations to start using that grant to build at scale.

Once again.

15:15

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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Helen Hayes Tottenham 14.

15:15

Q14. What steps his Department is taking to improve the regulation of tenant and resident management organisations. (900412)

Mr Speaker Minister. remains committed to the principle of tenants and leaseholders taking over certain management functions from their landlords and following from their landlords and following a review of existing arrangements for the oversight of tenant management organisations, we intend to take steps to make it easier to do so. Existing statutory guidance sets out a process to intervene in cases of mismanagement, but as part cases of mismanagement, but as part of our reform agenda, we will strengthen governance and oversight, including stronger safeguards in cases where tenant safety is at risk.

15:15

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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Helen Hayes thank you, Mr. Speaker. suffered years of appalling services from their resident management organisation, the Loughborough Estate Management

15:15

Helen Hayes MP (Dulwich and West Norwood, Labour)

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Board, including including a failing repair service, dangerous chemicals being stored in their chemicals being stored in their community centre, allegations of threats and harassment, and more than £350,000 of funding being than £350,000 of funding being spent on overseas trips and gifts. 18 months ago, residents voted overwhelmingly not to renew the mandate of the Loughborough Estate Management Board. Yet they are still operating, and there appears still operating, and there appears to be no straightforward mechanism for local council can use to close this failing organisation down.

Will my hon. Friend the Minister, work with me to bring this scandalous situation to an end and ensure the residents of the Loughborough estate receive the housing services they pay for and deserve.

15:16

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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I thank my hon. Friend for >> I thank my hon. Friend for bringing this, I have to say, alarming case to my attention. We are clear that as we look to make it easier to establish Tmos, and we want to do so, there are some very good ones out there. We must strengthen governance and accountability, and I can assure her that as part of that effort, the Secretary of State and I will be giving specific consideration to how extreme cases of mismanagement might be brought to an end as a mechanism of last resort.

Yes.

15:16

David Simmonds MP (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner, Conservative)

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Thank you very much indeed. Mr. speaker, I commend the hon. Member speaker, I commend the hon. Member for raising this issue, which is a subset of a wider issue, which I know many members will have heard know many members will have heard from constituents. So can the Secretary of State tell the House what concrete steps they have in mind as a government off the back of the legislation passed with their support by the previous conservative government and the legislation currently being consulted on to ensure that the kinds of rip off fees and simply unfair arrangements that either shuffle costs onto council taxpayers for tenants in social housing or onto the wallets a private tenants can be prevented in the future, so people can have confidence that these arrangements will provide the homes that they need that are fit for the future.

15:17

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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Minister. >> Minister. >> I thank the Shadow Minister for that very reasonable and apt question. We do need confidence in question. We do need confidence in the system. Many tenant management organisations provide excellent resident led housing services, but it's right that councils can intervene if things go wrong. Powers to intervene in cases of serious failings are included in the management agreement between councils and Tmos. But as I've just said in response to my hon. Friend, we are reviewing where we can go further in terms of governance and accountability to ensure the right safeguards are in place.

15:18

Q16. What assessment he has made of the potential impact of Pride in Place funding on levels of community cohesion in Aldershot constituency. (900414)

Alex Baker question 16. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, and I'm delighted that Cherrywood and the member's constituency of Aldershot will be receiving up to Aldershot will be receiving up to £20 million over the next decade as part of the government's expanded Pride in Place programme. These are significant sums of money that have been committed by the government to equip the community with the resources and power to drive local resources and power to drive local change, bring people together and restore a sense of pride in their area.

15:18

Nesil Caliskan MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Barking, Labour)

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Thank you.

15:18

Alex Baker MP (Aldershot, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Having campaigned hard for investment. the Member of Parliament, I'm really proud that this government has invested £20 million in Cherrywood Ward. Can the Minister Cherrywood Ward. Can the Minister set out how this Pride in Place funding will help strengthen our community ties, give local people a voice in shaping the place that they call home and make a difference to families living in Farnborough.

15:19

Nesil Caliskan MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Barking, Labour)

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Minister Mr. speaker, can I congratulate the hon. Member for her strong campaigning for her her strong campaigning for her constituency, to secure investment for her area, and she asks an important question about local important question about local people having a say over their local areas because they know best. The Pride and Place programme represents a break from the Micro-management approach of previous regeneration funds, and local boards are provided with the interventions and autonomy they need to pursue the change their community want to see youth centres, libraries, green spaces, cultural venues and help for families, including family hubs will all be in the scope of support for more cohesive and resilient communities.

15:19

Topical questions: Housing, Communities and Local Government

Go to top. Lewes. Lauren Edwards. >> Lowestoft. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday marked the ninth Yesterday marked the ninth anniversary of the Grenfell Tower fire, a day for remembrance and for

15:19

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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sombre reflection. The 72 residents who so tragically lost their lives will never be forgotten. And my will never be forgotten. And my thoughts are with the survivors, bereaved families and all those affected. I know they have the affected. I know they have the deepest sympathies of the whole House. We accepted the inquiry's House. We accepted the inquiry's findings last year and we will take forward action on all 58 recommendations. Determined that

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recommendations. Determined that nothing like this can ever happen again. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the Minister for his comments about Grenfell. I also welcome the the legislation the government has introduced to lower the voting age to 16 and to make it easier for people to register to vote. But has the Minister also considered the potential benefits of increasing potential benefits of increasing participation in elections by adding none of the above option on all ballot papers, a change which all ballot papers, a change which could be made without the need for primary legislation?

15:20

Lauren Edwards MP (Rochester and Strood, Labour)

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Yes.

15:20

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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Well, I mean, the government is very interested indeed in increasing participation and in elections. I know from personal elections. I know from personal experience that the biggest way to do that is to increase levels of campaigning, because that increases turnout in those elections. But beyond that, the government has already piloted flexible voting pilots at the May 2026 elections, testing, early voting and the use of non-traditional places where people can go and vote. And the Democratic Engagement Fund is providing £2.5 million to support local projects that encourage more people to vote.

But of course, we want to look at all proposals to get people out and voting, because that is central to the efficiency and effectiveness of our democracy.

15:21

Rt Hon Sir James Cleverly MP (Braintree, Conservative)

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Shadow Secretary of State. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. May I echo the words of the Secretary of echo the words of the Secretary of State, nine years on from the terrible fire at Grenfell, it's incredibly important that we learn the lessons from that tragedy and ensure that people are protected in their homes. Mr. speaker, Labour says that 16 and 17 year olds are mature enough to vote, but in a written answer to me, they also say that 16 and 17 year olds are not mature enough to serve on juries because it is, and I quote, an adult duty they see.

They say 16 and 17 year olds should vote, but they also say that they shouldn't be playing on their phones. After the government defined bedtime of 830 in the evening. And these are just two of the list of inconsistencies triggered by their votes at 16. The only consistent thing about the votes at 16 policy is the blatant political party self-interest, isn't it?

15:22

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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Thursday? >> Of course, while. >> I'm not. >> Sure about that last point, the laughter across the chamber, I think, probably answers that one think, probably answers that one for him. But of course, 16 and 17 year olds were able to vote in some elections in parts of the United elections in parts of the United Kingdom while he was in government as well. And if he really felt that 16 and 17 year olds shouldn't be able to vote anywhere, then he would have done something about it.

It's only right that we standardise the system so that people of that age can vote in all elections across the country. I, for one, welcome the increase in the franchise and encouraging more people to get out and participate. It's their country too, and they deserve a say. And I hope that young people under the age of 18 will look at the Conservatives, try to deny them the vote, and remember that when they are in the ballot box in future.

15:23

Rt Hon Sir James Cleverly MP (Braintree, Conservative)

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Sir James. Vote green. Mr. speaker, travellers. Built an. >> Unauthorised development in Willows Green in my constituency over a bank holiday weekend. I wrote to the Secretary of State wrote to the Secretary of State about this, and his reply amounted to little more than hand-wringing word salad. If he is serious about ending the abuse of retrospective planning in Essex and elsewhere, why won't he take up the proposals that we have put forward and end the build first and apply later culture first?

15:24

Rt Hon Steve Reed MP, The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government (Streatham and Croydon North, Labour )

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Well. government is is doing. We are looking at how we can tackle those builders who those developers who go ahead and build and then seek go ahead and build and then seek retrospectively planning consent. It's not acceptable. We've put more money into councils that they can fund building control functions, which were severely underfunded under the government when he was in office. That gives them more powers to take action, precisely the kind he's calling for. He had 14 years to do it.

He didn't. So we're doing it for them.

15:24

Alistair Strathern MP (Hitchin, Labour)

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There's just utter. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> New towns like Tempsford should offer an opportunity to ease development pressures, not add to them. So can I thank the Minister for listening to my representations to ensure it's included within CBC's housing targets if it comes forward, rather than being an addition. But across central beds, we've seen lots of examples of development coming forward without the right infrastructure. So as we explore the vehicles required to bring forward new towns like Tempsford, how can we make sure we do everything possible to get infrastructure right from the outset?

15:25

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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I'm grateful to my hon. Friend, Mr. Speaker, for his constructive engagement on the New Towns engagement on the New Towns programme and Tempsford in particular. That didn't help inform our approach, including that new town proposals should contribute town proposals should contribute towards meeting the identified housing need of relevant authorities. In all instances where assessing options for delivery vehicles across the proposed sites. Absolutely. With a view to ensuring that each is best placed to drive delivery and secure essential infrastructure in a timely manner.

15:25

Sarah Olney MP (Richmond Park, Liberal Democrat)

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Sarah Olney thank. >> The government's proposed high value council tax surcharge will be collected by councils but retained by the Treasury. If councils are neither controlling the charge or keeping the revenue. Why is it being called a council tax? Will the Minister therefore commit to changing this misleading policy title? And given that most of the revenue from the surcharge will be raised in London, will the government ensure that a fair proportion is reinvested in the capital?

15:25

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Minister. >> Minister. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the. I think that I was very thank the. I think that I was very busy last week. I can assure the Shadow Secretary of State. I thank the hon. Lady for her question. I the hon. Lady for her question. I think most people are bothered about the fairness of the council tax system. That's why it's right that the Chancellor introduced this policy rather than what it's called. I think it's important that we get on with it and introduce fairness into the system.

15:26

Tom Collins MP (Worcester, Labour)

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Collins. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Department for Education has recently released new guidance for recently released new guidance for local authorities on the role of family hubs. It describes a significant departure from conventional delivery models with a conventional delivery models with a high degree of network and partnership delivery, not only with public bodies, but also with the voluntary sector and businesses. A change in culture that would improve all areas of local authority delivery. What measures might the department consider to foster and facilitate networking and best practice sharing across local authorities? And will the Minister meet with me to discuss how the family APPG, which I chair, might help deliver this culture change?

15:26

Manuela Perteghella MP (Stratford-on-Avon, Liberal Democrat)

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Yes I will. Mr. speaker. >> The old British Home Stores building, situated at the heart of Stratford upon Avon, lies disused Stratford upon Avon, lies disused and crumbling, a blight on the beauty of our high Street. Does the Minister agree that he must be made easier for communities to tackle eyesore buildings by imposing harsher measures on offending landlords and strengthening measures to allow local authorities to bring them back into productive use?

15:27

Nesil Caliskan MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Barking, Labour)

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Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. And can I thank the hon. Member for raising a very important issue. The devolution Bill goes to some extent to addressing that, but can I also take the opportunity to highlight that the government is pushing ahead with the high streets rental auctions, which are helping to bring long term empty shops back into use? Jayne Kirkham thank you, Mr. Speaker. The King's Speech contains an overnight visitor levy to be devolved to mayoral strategic authorities and potentially foundation strategic authorities to most coastal and rural areas that struggle with the impacts of tourism are not in mayoral areas.

So can the Minister confirm that Fsas will also receive the power to put on the levy and meet with put on the levy and meet with discuss.

15:28

Jayne Kirkham MP (Truro and Falmouth, Labour )

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A Minister? it's my second reminder of how important coastal communities are, and I recognise that the first time, when I did the adjournment

15:28

Nesil Caliskan MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Barking, Labour)

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88. Just last week. The fiscal >> 88. Just last week. The fiscal tools that will drive good growth in respective areas through Merrill strategic authorities is something that the government is committed to, that the government is committed to, and we've recently consulted on extending the power to, and will publish a response shortly.

15:28

Ian Sollom MP (St Neots and Mid Cambridgeshire, Liberal Democrat)

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Ian Sollom thank you, Mr. Speaker. The recently announced Greater Cambridge Development Greater Cambridge Development Corporation has been billed by the government as infrastructure First development. So could the Minister development. So could the Minister set out what specific new infrastructure it will have the responsibility for delivering and

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by when? The hon. Gentleman knows we're in the process of establishing that Greater Cambridge Development Corporation, and we'll set out further details, as we have just a few days ago, in terms of its few days ago, in terms of its development management powers, its planning powers and the specific sites it will be looking at going

15:29

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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forward. >> Joe Morris thank. >> You. >> Mr. Speaker. Rural housing. >> Availability is in crisis, and

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Availability is in crisis, and all tenants of an estate in my constituency near Haltwhistle, many of whom are elderly tenants in their 70s and 80s, receive section 21 notices a week before the Renter's Rights Act was due to come into effect. In a rural community into effect. In a rural community like this, there simply is not similar housing nearby. It is the dismantling of a rural community. dismantling of a rural community. Would he therefore meet with me to discuss support that he can offer for constituents and further steps we can take to support rural communities being being victimised by these practices?

15:29

Joe Morris MP (Hexham, Labour)

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I thank my hon. Friend for raising this matter. I appreciate fully his concern about the potential mass eviction of his constituents. Mr. speaker, it is precisely so that private tenants can enjoy greater security, including the growing number of older people who now rent their homes, that we abolish section 21 homes, that we abolish section 21 no fault evictions. I am happy to meet with him to discuss the case further and what more support we might provide.

15:30

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Whitstable's latest drought was a few weeks ago during a heatwave, leaving many residents and local businesses high and dry. South East water tell me and my neighbours that they cannot guarantee meeting current demand, so we'll be unable to guarantee meeting additional new to guarantee meeting additional new homes demand. Has the Secretary of State met with them, or Canterbury City Council to discuss this issue?

15:30

Rosie Duffield MP (Canterbury, Independent)

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Mr. speaker, we meet. We meet with a range of stakeholders through the Water Delivery Task Force. I understand that in response to Canterbury's Local Plan consultation, the Environment Agency has recommended close liaison between the Authority and South East Water to ensure that planned housing growth is located planned housing growth is located where additional water is available to supply new development. Adam Jogee thank.

15:30

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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You very much, Mr. Speaker. In 2022, my constituents at number one London Road in Newcastle Line were told that urgent action was needed due to fire safety concerns over the building's cladding. It's now 2026. Four years later, that urgent action is yet to begin. So can the Minister set out what steps she will take to ensure that the BSR functions effectively and does not create greater risk for significant delays? Delays that have a huge impact on those directly impacted impact on those directly impacted in Newcastle and across the country?

15:31

Adam Jogee MP (Newcastle-under-Lyme, Labour)

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Minister thank.

15:31

Samantha Dixon MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Chester North and Neston, Labour)

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Member has been working really hard to. Support his constituents in Newcastle-under-Lyme on these in Newcastle-under-Lyme on these really important issues. I am happy to meet with him, but to reassure him, the work going on for the building safety regulator to improve performance and it is bearing fruit.

15:31

Siân Berry MP (Brighton Pavilion, Green Party)

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Joe Powell. >> Joe Powell. >> Mr. speaker, many councils, especially Brighton and Hove, with hundreds of acquisitions since 2017, hundreds of acquisitions since 2017, are doing their best to buy as well as build their supply of new council housing. More family homes council housing. More family homes can be provided and the speeds of the benefits gives it a different Treasury business case. So will the Secretary of State help me win the Chancellor's support for the idea of a massive new, dedicated buy the supply fund for councils?

15:31

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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Minister. >> Well, Mr. Speaker, funding is already available to councils to acquire new market homes for social and affordable housing through our and affordable housing through our Social and Affordable Homes programme. They can obviously also programme. They can obviously also rely on section 106 contributions and the Local authority housing Fund. The fourth round of which makes £950 million available for councils to acquire homes for better quality temporary accommodation.

15:32

Jonathan Davies MP (Mid Derbyshire, Labour)

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Jonathan Davies. >> Jonathan Davies. >> Thank you very much. >> Mr. Speaker. >> National parks. >> And natural landscapes provide huge benefit to people's health and huge benefit to people's health and wellbeing and biodiversity and the economy as well. So can the Minister tell me what steps we may Minister tell me what steps we may be able to take through the future? NPPF, that the next iteration of that will ensure that the aforementioned benefits are not undermined when there are infrastructure projects which must must be progressed?

15:32

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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Minister Mr. Speaker, we continue to target a win win for both development and nature. I'm both development and nature. I'm more than happy to sit down with my hon. Friend to discuss how the NPPF contributes to that objective. >> Worcester. Neil Hudson.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Outrageously, today, the government has stripped Epping Forest District Council of the sole local right to determine major planning applications. This means that my constituents will have major planning decisions taken by

15:33

Dr Neil Hudson MP (Epping Forest, Conservative)

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central government and not by our local council. Epping Forest district is largely green belt and district is largely green belt and we are already under threat from speculative housing applications, farmland being sacrificed for solar farmland being sacrificed for solar plants and the Labour government arbitrarily reclassifying green belt as so-called grey belt. Will belt as so-called grey belt. Will the Secretary of State step in and reverse this awful planning policy

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decision, which is a complete affront to local democracy? Yes. Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to reverse the decision. I made the decision one of the his local authority is one of nine that have been designated for poor performance, just as the previous government designated local authorities when they fell below the required standards in terms of their planning processes.

15:33

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Sadly, the recent closure of family run business sent from Dudley Black Star, Ghanaian product and Family Bargains hardware in Dudley is symptomatic of a wider trend of high street shopfronts closing. What steps is the Minister taking to speed up high street regeneration by bringing back empty shops into use? And will he come to visit Dudley Town High Street to visit Dudley Town High Street to see what else we can do?

15:34

Sonia Kumar MP (Dudley, Labour)

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Mr. for raising this very important issue? There are two things I'd like to point to. One is that we will later this year, bring forward a high street strategy backed by at least £150 million. And as I said earlier, we're pushing ahead with the High Streets rental auctions programme, which is already seeing empty shops being being brought back into use. back into use.

15:34

Nesil Caliskan MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Barking, Labour)

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Carlisle Mr. Speaker. assessments to wriggle out of providing affordable homes for communities like mine in Westland? An agreement for 12 affordable houses to be developed, delivered in alleyway near Grange, over sands that's been torn up. The council that's been torn up. The council has no power to stop it. Will you help us? Will he help us?

15:34

Tim Farron MP (Westmorland and Lonsdale, Liberal Democrat)

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Minister. that developers should be able to use site by site viability assessments. The alternative, where viability challenges are acute is that we get no homes coming forward at all. But we've consulted through the recent consultation on the NPPF the recent consultation on the NPPF on standardised inputs to viability. As I said, we'll set out further steps in due course.

15:35

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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Keir Mather thank you, Mr. Speaker.

15:35

Mr Bayo Alaba MP (Southend East and Rochford, Labour)

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Leaseholders at Southend's Meridian Port are trapped in an unbearable financial situation as a unbearable financial situation as a result of £3 million in Internal Defects bill and a 450 zero zero £0 fight against their building's developer. Their block is 80m in height and they are not entitled to funding the support that they desperately need, and have been offered just £50,000 towards their legal fees by Homes England. Will the Minister look at how we can look at existing funding criteria for mid-rise buildings and encourage Homes England to fully support leaseholders in taking on

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well resourced developers? Minister. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Buildings between 11 and 18m are may be able to enter the cladding safety scheme, but I am happy to

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safety scheme, but I am happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss this further. Julian Lewis how. Can.

15:36

Samantha Dixon MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Chester North and Neston, Labour)

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>> Can. >> It be justified. For a unitary authority to be formed, which rips authority to be formed, which rips the waterside away from the New Forest and places it under the control of labour, dominated Southampton when the building blocks of the new unitary authorities were stated by the authorities were stated by the government to be the existing areas covered by district and borough councils.

15:36

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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Minister. Secretary of State took the decisions about local government reorganisation according to the criteria we set out. I hear the hon. Gentleman's comments and will take those into account as we move forward. forward.

15:36

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Sean Woodcock very much, Mr. Speaker. Can I thank the Minister for the decision that he's taken today with regards to continued and ongoing failings by Sherwood District Council with regards to major planning applications? However, given that Banbury has a. A really huge and very desperate housing need. Would the Minister housing need. Would the Minister agree to meet with me in order to discuss how we can fix that? Despite the Council. Despite the Council.

15:37

Sean Woodcock MP (Banbury, Labour)

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I'm more than happy to meet with my hon. Friend to discuss the housing challenges in his particular part of the country.

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Josh Babarinde. I'm leading the campaign. In Eastbourne. To register a Eastbourne pier as

15:37

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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>> To register a Eastbourne pier as an asset of community value to safeguard its future. Will the

15:37

Josh Babarinde MP (Eastbourne, Liberal Democrat)

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government back this campaign to ensure that Eastbourne Pier continues to stand strong. >> For this?

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Having served as a council leader, I know just how important community assets are and I'm very happy to meet the

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are and I'm very happy to meet the right hon. Member to further discuss the issue. Peter Swallow thank. You, Mr. Speaker. My hon. Friend will know how enthusiastic I am for a Thames Valley Foundation strategic authority covering Berkshire, Oxfordshire and Swindon. But he'll also know my concerns about an SDS being imposed on us on a different, being imposed on us on a different, larger geography. Does he share my concerns that this would undermine devolution before it even started?

15:38

Peter Swallow MP (Bracknell, Labour)

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Minister. matter. There are a range of views about the right geographies for spatial development strategies. The Minister for Devolution and Communities and I are looking at all the responses we've received to the consultation and make decisions fed. fed.

15:38

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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In Damian Hinds. Friend, will the Secretary of State take the opportunity of the new NPPF to make absolutely clear that if you wilfully ignore, not inadvertently but deliberately and wilfully ignore the need for planning consent, you will not then planning consent, you will not then subsequently be able to get retrospective permission.

15:38

Rt Hon Damian Hinds MP (East Hampshire, Conservative)

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OK. out Mr Speaker retrospective planning applications of any kind. I think residents across the country putting in conservatories and then applying in instances where they forgot to submit the paperwork would take issue with that I have had. There is a specific issue about intentional unauthorised development. We're looking at it through the NPPF. I looking at it through the NPPF. I recently had a group meeting with a large group of members across the house, including members of the front bench, where we discussed the front bench, where we discussed the possible options we can look to bear down on the practices we're seeing, which is a new business model that exploits a particular model that exploits a particular set of challenges.

15:39

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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Well. for Pride in Place and Redditch. Would the Minister join me in thanking all those that put their name forward and also encourage all residents in Greenlands and Woodrow to take part in the scheme, which will see the largest single will see the largest single financial investment in my town in my entire lifetime.

15:39

Chris Bloore MP (Redditch, Labour)

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Minister. join the right hon. Member in recognising the significant investment for his area? The Pride in Place programme rolled out by the government is our commitment to devolution and investing in areas that have for far too long been ignored.

15:39

Nesil Caliskan MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Barking, Labour)

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Final question. review the 2500 square metre threshold for edge of town centre and out of town centre planning applications to conduct an impact on the high street assessment, particularly through the lens of supermarkets. Setting up things supermarkets. Setting up things like key cutting and shoe repair kiosks to decimate our high streets, as has happened in Princes Risborough recently. Risborough recently.

15:40

Greg Smith MP (Mid Buckinghamshire, Conservative)

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If the hon. Gentleman wants to write to me with further details about the matter, I will of course consider it.

15:40

Matthew Pennycook MP, Minister of State (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Greenwich and Woolwich, Labour)

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Changeover. To the Urgent Question Leader of the Opposition. Kemi Badenoch. Yes.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To ask the Secretary. Of State for defence if he will

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Of State for defence if he will make a statement on the effect of the delay of the Defence Investment Plan on our Armed Forces ability to

15:40

Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch MP (North West Essex, Conservative)

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Plan on our Armed Forces ability to defend the United Kingdom? >> Minister. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

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Before I turn to the matter before us, the whole House will want to join me in recognising the remarkable work of our armed forces. remarkable work of our armed forces. This weekend in the channel, UK forces boarded a sanctioned vessel from Russia's shadow fleet to disrupt the flow of funds to Putins

15:41

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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illegal war in Ukraine. The Defence Secretary will be making a statement on that shortly. Mr. speaker, these are extraordinary speaker, these are extraordinary times for defence. The threats are real and they are increasing. Its no secret that I worked in lockstep no secret that I worked in lockstep with the former defence secretary. He is a friend and mentor. I was his deputy and I am still standing his deputy and I am still standing here because he asked me to stay and because we need continuity in this complex and difficult operational environment.

The dip operational environment. The dip will be published before the NATO summit. Do we need to increase more on. Do we need to spend more on defence? Yes. Does the Prime Minister and the Chancellor agree? Yes. Are we spending more? Yes. This year's defence Budget is £11 billion more than the final year under the Conservatives. Are we learning the lessons from Ukraine? Yes. Are we retiring old Kit to invest in new capabilities? Yes. Are we backing our people? Yes. The biggest pay rise in 20 years and £9 billion plan to fix the defence housing crisis we inherited.

And its working intake is up 11.6%. Outflow down 8.9% and morale is up. And to answer her question directly, if asked to fight tonight, could our forces defend the UK? Yes. And they already do. Every single day. Are we planning to increase their capabilities to deter and defend the UK and our allies? Yes we are. Would I like to go further? Of course. The new Defence Secretary has stepped up to serve, as he has done before, sleeves rolled up and determined to meet the moment to get defence the best deal.

And let me say plainly, I know the PM is committed to do so as well, he said in Munich. To meet the wider threat, it is clear that we are going to have to spend more, faster and at the weekend, he said 3% in the next Parliament defence will be the number one priority at every spending review, including the next spending review. The disagreement in recent weeks was never about whether we should fund our forces. It's about how fast we increase the spending for defence and on what capabilities, and that's a serious argument to have.

And I make no apology for pushing hard within the government to win it. That is the job. But the job is also a team sport, and that is why the MoD, with the new Defence Secretary, is working with the Treasury and other government departments and number ten to get this right.

15:43

Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch MP (North West Essex, Conservative)

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Kemi Badenoch yes. that a junior Minister has been sent to answer this question today. If the new Defence Secretary is too If the new Defence Secretary is too scared to face tough questions at the despatch box, waiting for an easier statement later, then I don't have much confidence in him facing down the threat from Russia. It has been two years since Labour paused the Conservatives plan to fund our armed forces, a year since their strategic defence review, a year since their strategic defence review.

We have been warning that the delays to the Defence Investment Plan.

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Maldon people have gone to the front bench. Don't bring the backbench habits to the frontbench, please.

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please. Kemi Badenoch thank you, Mr. Speaker. We have been warning that the delays to the Defence the delays to the Defence Investment Plan were making our troops and our country less safe. troops and our country less safe. Last week, the Defence Secretary and the Minister for the Armed Forces quit the government because Forces quit the government because they know those warnings were true and they were no longer willing to defend the indefensible. They have done the honourable thing by resigning.

It could not have been easy for the former defence secretary, a Labour man, through and through, when he said, and I quote, I am being forced to make decisions that would increase the risk to personnel on operations and could make the country less safe. That is absolutely shocking. What on earth is the government playing at? The statement that the Minister has just given shows that the government are still in denial? He did not say that there would be extra money for the Defence Investment Plan as his former mentor, so he says, asked for the Prime Minister needs to tell the Chancellor to find the money.

The answer is to cut the welfare Budget and I am. I am willing to lend the government 116 votes to do just that, because I know they won't do it. On the proviso that the Defence Investment Plan meets three simple tests. First, the government must, at a minimum, find the £28 billion that the chief of the Defence Staff has said is needed. Will they. Second, that funding must be provided before 2030. Will it. There is no kicking into the long grass here, Mr.

Speaker, and if the answer to both questions is no, then this Minister should have resigned along with his colleagues. Third, that funding must ensure we are ready to fight the wars of the future, not the past. I am sure the Minister will now stand up and try and blame the situation on conservative governments, forgetting that these are new threats, not past threats. This government needs to stop wasting time and do what is necessary to keep the British people safe today.

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Yes. Minister. Can I thank the right hon. Lady

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Can I thank the right hon. Lady for her question and for the tone in which she asked it. We often have a lot of shouting from her

15:46

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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front bench, but I appreciate the professionalism and calm that she asked those questions. Let me be very clear. >> The order. Order. I think

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The order. Order. I think there's two. I just want to spoil it. I'm sure they want Minister. Mr. speaker, let me be very

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Mr. speaker, let me be very clear. The Defence Secretary is currently with His Majesty the King and will be in the House this afternoon making a statement on the operational the operations over the weekend. I have to say, I recognise that she got her revenge in early by saying I will seek to blame it on the Conservatives. Let me be very clear. The right hon. Lady will know that we inherited forces that have been hollowed out and underfunded by the Conservatives, that we inherited defence housing, that we inherited defence housing where families were being asked to sleep in bedrooms with black mould, leaky roofs and broken boilers.

That 47 of 49 major defence programmes we inherited at the general election were over Budget and unfunded. However, we have also been very clear that we are increasing defence spending. I appreciate I appreciate that she had a pre-scripted questions, but if she listened to what I said at the start, she would know that we are increasing defence, spending an

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extra £11 billion odd. I think you've just proved the point. When you request an urgent point. When you request an urgent question and the questions being asked allow the Minister to ask without comment, without two of you without comment, without two of you either side chipping in. I don't need it. You don't want it. So I'm not being funny. This affects all

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our constituencies and our constituents. So please. Minister thank you, Mr. Speaker. We are increasing defence spending. We are increasing defence spending. The Budget this year is £11 billion more than the Budget in the last year of the conservative government. We are ending that hollowing out. But of course I want more money in the defence Budget. It is a case that we continue to make as the profile of defence spending increases. I welcome a debate that says, what capabilities will we spend that increasing defence funding on? And she is right when she says we need to fight the wars of tomorrow.

That's why we're investing in more autonomy. That's why we're investing in more drones, a hybrid navy and the increased stockpiles that we need to deter Russian aggression. There's more work to do, and the new defence secretary is working with the sleeves rolled up to deliver the best deal that we can. And we will publish the Defence Investment Plan ahead of the NATO summit.

15:48

Alex Baker MP (Aldershot, Labour)

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Alex Baker thank you, Mr. Speaker. For the past 18 months, Speaker. For the past 18 months, I've been talking to the former Defence Secretary and Ministers across government as part of my campaign for the UK to co-found the defence, Security and Resilience Resilience Bank. As my right hon. Friend noted in his resignation letter, we need to find different ways to finance our defence industry and that should include standing with our allies and working internationally. Will the government now listen to calls from across the House to join this world Bank for defence as a matter of urgency, because we cannot afford for British defence industry to be locked out of this bank.

The charter will be signed at the NATO summit and the clock is ticking.

15:49

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Yes. work, not just on the lobbying for the DSB, but I know that as an MP for a military town, she is a real for a military town, she is a real champion, not just for the army, but also for local businesses in her patch. We're working to look at what are the multinational mechanisms that would best deliver for defence and importantly, also for the defence supply chain to make sure that there is the ability to finance the growth that we expect in defence supply chain.

That work is continuing, but I'd encourage her to continue having conversations with the Treasury who lead on that aspect.

15:49

James MacCleary MP (Lewes, Liberal Democrat)

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James MacCleary, the Liberal >> James MacCleary, the Liberal Democrat spokesperson. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> We are now nine. >> Months overdue a defence investment plan. I hear almost investment plan. I hear almost daily from defence SMEs who are facing a funding precipice. Many are warning that without certainty are warning that without certainty from government, they'll be unable to invest higher or even in some cases, continue to operate at all. So will the Minister tell this House what assessment has been made of the financial impact on the UK defence industry? Of the continued delay to the Defence Investment Plan, the government's own national security adviser has said that an extra £18 billion, at a minimum, is needed for our armed forces, and it's likely a lot more than that.

So given his former colleagues decisions to resign on a matter of principle over government's failure to defend, fight to fund defence properly, will the Minister himself resign if he fails to secure at least that minimum allocation? And in the spirit of constructive opposition, may I suggest a way for him to avoid that fate entirely? Will he consider backing Lib Dem defence bonds, which would raise 20 billion over two years, and give our armed forces the immediate injection of funding that they need for certainty?

15:50

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Minister. >> Minister. >> What can I thank him for his his questions? He will know that we've signed 1400 major defence contracts signed 1400 major defence contracts since the general election that has supported thousands of SMEs. He will also know that we've stood up the Defence Office for Small Business Growth, a single doorway to increase the direct spend with SMEs by the Ministry of Defence by 50% by 2028. We will continue to work on that and as a defence focussed MP before I was a shadow defence Minister, let alone a defence Minister, I'm proud that the advocacy that I have made for Devonport, for Plymouth, for our armed forces, I will continue to make that case from within government to give our forces the funding they need, the increasing defence spending that we need, that the government has already set out an ambition to deliver.

I'll continue to make the case for that.

15:51

Alan Gemmell MP (Central Ayrshire, Labour)

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Alan Campbell thank you. >> Mr. Speaker. >> My hon. Friend may know that the British Aerospace company, seeking to develop a replacement for the to develop a replacement for the Red arrows has gone into administration, and the company is, in part blaming the delays to the in part blaming the delays to the Defence investment plan for this terrible outcome. Can I thank my hon. Friend for the time he's taken with me? Looking for opportunities to invest defence spend in my constituency, but can he do more to ensure that the Defence Investment plan brings good quality jobs right across this country? Yes, Minister.

15:52

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I thank him for his his >> Can I thank him for his his question? We've discussed a rallies together. We are committed to the Red arrows. There will be a Red arrows. There will be a competition to replace the Red arrows, but also the Hawk T1, T2 training system that we have today that provides the pilots of the future, that will be a competitive process, and it will be up to companies to provide a design, an option and a training system to support that.

And that competition will launch in due course.

15:52

Rt Hon Sir Edward Leigh MP (Gainsborough, Conservative)

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Bar of the House. Edward Leigh. >> When the nation is at risk and that if the opposition asks a question, it's frankly cowardly for the Secretary of State not to turn the Secretary of State not to turn up. His duty is to be here in our House of Commons. I just say to the Father of the House, the king has summoned him, and he is with the king at the moment. And I think about the language that he's about being cowardly. I think it's not called for and expect better from the father house.

I'm sure the King would have understood, but we'll

15:53

Mr Speaker

leave it like that. Can I just ask the Secretary of State this? He

15:53

Rt Hon Sir Edward Leigh MP (Gainsborough, Conservative)

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the Secretary of State this? He constantly blames the previous conservative government. But the fact is that times have changed. Let's look at history. When we're in the same situation, the 1930s, in the same situation, the 1930s, we're only spending 2.5% in 1935 on defence, and then we increase it to defence, and then we increase it to 9%. The whole nation came together. The Leader of the Opposition has given him a deal. We will combine with him to slash the totally huge welfare Budget.

We will help them meet what the previous Secretary of State wanted. Why did the previous Secretary of State resign? Minister?

15:53

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Well, first of all, can I be very clear with the right hon. very clear with the right hon. Gentleman who I have a lot of time for that. The new Defence Secretary is someone who served our country is someone who served our country in uniform, served in the Parachute Regiment, was awarded an MBE for his work in uniform. It's someone who I am very proud to serve alongside and is someone who I am working alongside now to ensure that we can deliver a defence investment plan with the funding that's required to renew our forces.

He is right when he says times have changed. That's precisely why the defence investment plan capabilities that we're looking at looks at retiring old kit and bringing on investment in new kit, in particular drones, one way effector, the hybrid navy and autonomy, something that we're learning the lessons from Ukraine on because we are there standing alongside our friends in Ukraine, we can see how Russia fights, we can see what works, and we're using that knowledge to not only support our friends in Ukraine, but bring that back for capabilities for the UK armed forces.

And when the dip is published shortly, he'll be able to see that.

15:54

Yasmin Qureshi MP (Bolton South and Walkden, Labour)

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Yasmin Qureshi thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> I refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members Financial Interest. As a member of the NATO Interest. As a member of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly, I must say that I find it remarkable that the Conservatives raised this today, Conservatives raised this today, given that under their watch, real term defence spending fell by 22% and their own former defence secretary admitted that they had left our armed forces hollowed out and underfunded.

And, Mr. Speaker, we should also reject the framing of this debate. Pitting welfare against security is divisive and corrosive, and we should call out for what it is. This government is already spending 62.2 billion on defence this year, rising to 73.5 billion by 2829. Can the Secretary of State confirm that when the Defence Investment Plan is published, it will maximise spending with British industries so that every pound spent also strengthens. Order, order?

15:55

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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And I think the Minister has got it. Minister. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can I say to my hon. Friend that I say to my hon. Friend that I remember sitting where the Leader of the Opposition is now, when the then Defence Secretary, Ben Wallace, then Defence Secretary, Ben Wallace, described the hollowing out and underfunding of the conservative government. But let me also be very clear and answer my friend's question directly. I want more of a rising defence Budget spent with British companies, and increasing defence Budget spent with British companies is more jobs, more opportunities for our young people.

Defence spending is reindustrialisation of our communities. It is an engine for growth and that's why we're investing in skills. That's why we're investing in our SMEs. That's why we're investing in innovation. And if we do all of that right, we'll give our fighting forces the equipment they need to deter aggression and defeat it if necessary. The case on how much we spend, how quickly we spend it is one that I welcome. I will continue making the case for more defence spending for defence.

As I know the Prime Minister and the Chancellor are aware of and are increasing defence spending.

15:57

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown MP (North Cotswolds, Conservative)

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To the PAC. Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> The House will be aware that we spend £333 billion a year on the spend £333 billion a year on the Department for Work and Pensions. We spend less than a fifth of that on defence, 62 billion. The government. The Prime Minister, in his speech this morning talked about government being a choice. Is this the right choice?

15:57

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Minister. I have a lot of time >> Minister. I have a lot of time for the gentleman, and he will know that much of the Budget that he described from DWP pays pensions, described from DWP pays pensions, pays benefits for those people who can't work and where people can work. We're giving them the support to get back into the economy, to get back into work. And that's an important part of a Labour government's mission to help everyone work if they can. Now, here's a case that he makes for increasing defence spending, I think is one that is is part of this debate.

I'm equally interested in not just what is the total figure, but on what capabilities are we spending it on. And so it's not just about a calendar day when a document gets published. Let's also make sure that in this debate we can say what capabilities, what drones, what ability in our hybrid Navy, what do we need to invest in to create the deterrence that we need and to increase our warfighting readiness? That is a good debate to have. Speaker.

15:58

Jayne Kirkham MP (Truro and Falmouth, Labour )

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This government is not year zero. The 2.5% target hasn't been hit since 2010, the end of the last Labour government, and there's been Labour government, and there's been an extra 11 billion since the end of the last government. I met my ex-husband in the Fleet Air arm in 2003, just in time to witness some of the hollowing out of the armed forces. With the loss of capability and good people. I want to thank my hon. Friend for providing the continuity needed for these detailed negotiations.

Can he confirm that there will be a fully funded plan on defence for the first time in a generation by the NATO summit?

15:58

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Minister what can I thank my hon. Friend for her work? Not only is she a good voice in support of the armed forces and her constituency, armed forces and her constituency, she has won the loudest voices in support of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary, a really key part of our Auxiliary, a really key part of our military apparatus and something that we are continuing to invest in. She is right that we will publish a fully funded defence investment plan ahead of the NATO summit in only a few weeks time.

It is the first time in 20 years that we've had a line by line review of defence spending. It does look at the capabilities we need the investment not just in kit and equipment, but also in our people and our estates.

15:59

Monica Harding MP (Esher and Walton, Liberal Democrat)

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Monica Harding thank you, Mr. Speaker. Speaker. >> Yesterday at the glorious Princess Alice summer in my constituency, I met Glen Royal Navy Vet whose last appointment was aboard HMS broadsword. He said to me, what are they doing to the Royal Navy? I want you to represent me and tell them that they need to sort it out. So I am, Mr. Speaker, telling them to sort it out. What is our government Barking taking the responsible decisions to fund the Defence investment plan properly, and why are they disregarding the Liberal Democrat proposals to fund it through defence bonds rising up to £20 billion over two years, so that Glen and other vets are proud of the services, rather than despairing that they used to serve so well.

16:00

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Yeah. >> Well, HMS broadsword was quite a ship. I remember going on her when I was growing up in Plymouth many, many moons ago, and that is a good many moons ago, and that is a good example for what we are doing. We're having to retire old capabilities. The frigate force, in particular, the type 23 seconds, particular, the type 23 seconds, were run on far too long. They should have been replaced long before the orders were placed by the last government. That is creating difficulties in the frigates we have.

But let me tell Glenn and the House what we're doing about it. We're investing in a new hybrid navy with more autonomous, uncrewed capabilities. We're installing Dragonfire, our directed energy weapons system, on type 45 destroyers. We are addressing the retention and recruitment crisis that saw so many of our Navy personnel hollowed out, especially addressing those shortage subjects like marine engineers, for instance, and making sure that we're giving our Royal Marines the latest kit and equipment. The new Kraken K3 Scouts for four seven Commando being a

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good example of how we're equipping our Royal Marines with equipment they need. Hazel Grove thank you.

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Hazel Grove thank you. Mr. Speaker. And as the Minister will know from his many visits to the Filton and Bradley Stoke constituency, my community is constituency, my community is proudly home to MoD Abbey wood, the centre of defence equipment and support, and many brilliant defence support, and many brilliant defence companies of a wide range of sizes. Could the Minister please set out how he expects Defence Investment

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how he expects Defence Investment Plan to support important businesses like these? Minister. Can I thank my hon. Friend for her question? She's right. I've had a lot of good times in Filton and

16:01

Claire Hazelgrove MP (Filton and Bradley Stoke, Labour)

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Bradley Stoke, not only with the amazing people that work at the National Armaments Directors Group at Abbey wood, people who work tirelessly to give our people the kit and equipment they need, but also seeing some of the superb work that Rolls-Royce are carrying out,

16:01

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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for instance, not only in supporting GCap but supporting the operational effectiveness of our air platforms today. There's other air platforms today. There's other businesses, large and small in her patch that will benefit from the ten years of certainty that will come from the Defence Investment

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come from the Defence Investment Plan, and it will be published before the NATO summit. Gavin Williamson. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

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I think we all very much welcomed the. did. Along with his. Team, including.

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Team, including. General Barrons. And PHE, PHE Hill, those 62

16:02

Rt Hon Sir Gavin Williamson MP (Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge, Conservative)

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>> And PHE, PHE Hill, those 62 recommendations that were put there, how many of those recommendations of the government still committed

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to? All of them? Mr.

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Mr. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Minister will know that Redditch is home to many businesses who proudly support our armed forces. I think he may have just touched upon this in the previous answer, but can the Minister confirm that when the Minister confirm that when the Prime Minister is does go to the NATO summit next month, that the dip will be published in full?

16:02

Chris Bloore MP (Redditch, Labour)

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Minister can I thank my hon. Friend for his question? Yes. We will be publishing the dip ahead of the NATO summit, as the Prime Minister has set out now for a number of weeks, that dip will not

16:02

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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only set out the kit and capabilities. Importantly, and like the defence equipment plans that we inherited from the party opposite inherited from the party opposite that were unfunded with £18 billion black hole in their equipment plan, for instance, the dip will also for instance, the dip will also look at the estates, the the housing situation and our people vital enablers of a whole defence vital enablers of a whole defence project. That's why a line by line review that has highlighted the mistakes, the lack of support mistakes, the lack of support contracts that we saw from the Conservatives.

For instance, it will be a funded plan, as I've set out, and it will be published ahead of the NATO summit.

16:03

Danny Kruger MP (East Wiltshire, Reform UK)

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Danny Kruger. >> Mr. Speaker. >> The defence. >> Funding is obviously very late. >> And clearly it's going to.

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And clearly it's going to. Be inadequate as well. But an even greater scandal is surely the fact that the spending itself is so poorly conducted. Our procurement system is slow, wasteful and outdated. He praised them earlier, but does he not accept that the bureaucrats who gave us the Ajax programme cannot command the confidence of the armed forces? Does he acknowledge that the part of the MoD that he oversees procurement is slow, wasteful? It procures outdated equipment. It is the most dysfunctional part of the British state.

16:04

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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I mean, that sounds like a very >> I mean, that sounds like a very good description from when he was a conservative of his government's record on procurement. But let me say this very simply to reform. say this very simply to reform. Where is your defence spokesperson? Where are they? Reform MPs are often missing from defensive often missing from defensive efforts. Where are they? Let's make sure that we have the investment, because I want to see armed forces that stand up to Russia, not reform politicians that accept bribes from Russia.

16:04

Florence Eshalomi MP (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Florence Eshalomi thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the Minister for coming to reply to this. UQ one for coming to reply to this. UQ one area which has been truly shocking for many years is the condition that our armed services are forced that our armed services are forced to live in disgraceful, appalling conditions. The Minister is aware that the Defence Housing Strategy launched last year, and I thank him for giving me briefing on that. Part of that is funding from the Strategic Defence Review.

Can Mr. outlined that that funding is still secured. Obviously, we are seeing secured. Obviously, we are seeing concerns with the overall defence investment Plan.

16:05

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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What can I thank.

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My hon. Friend for her question. It was a scandal that so many of our armed forces personnel were being asked and required to live in accommodation with black mould, broken boilers and leaky roofs. It directly affected the fall in directly affected the fall in morale that we saw in every single service for nearly the duration of the conservative government. It led to the retention and recruitment to the retention and recruitment crisis, and it is the reason why, in opposition, we said, would make improving defence housing a priority in government.

Why? We've priority in government. Why? We've announced a £9 billion programme to improve defence homes, and we've set out already that not only did we have a target of delivering improvements to the 1000 worst defence homes by Christmas, a target we achieved and delivered ahead of time. But we've now also completed the next 200 most appalling homes and we're getting after it. So by the next decade, 9 in 10 defence homes will either have been rebuilt or refurbished, giving our people the homes that they should have had for many, many years.

But they're only getting because of a Labour government funding it.

16:05

Sir Bernard Jenkin MP (Harwich and North Essex, Conservative)

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Sir Bernard J. >> Sir Bernard J. >> Thank you. >> Mr. Speaker. Does the Minister realise how utterly discredited the realise how utterly discredited the government now looks? And is it not because we all understand that there is probably a majority in this House for the government to take the necessary measures to find the extra money necessary for defence, but it's the failure of the Prime Minister to manage his own party, which is at the root of this problem.

Will changing the leader make any difference?

16:06

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Minister I'm here to talk about defence policy rather than Labour Party leadership, I'm afraid. But Party leadership, I'm afraid. But let me be very clear. The Prime Minister has set out his desire to spend more on defence and spend it faster. I welcome that I want to see more defence spending. That's why we have a profile that already increases spending. That gets to 2.5% on defence in April 2027, something never achieved in 14 years of conservative government. So I welcome the debate about how we can go faster on defence spending.

I think it's important. I also want to see a debate about what capabilities we're spending on, how much more of that money is directed at UK businesses. That is what I hope will happen in the next couple of weeks.

16:07

Jacob Collier MP (Burton and Uttoxeter, Labour)

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Jacob Collier speaker, the government has led with. government has led with. >> A NATO. First approach in the SDR and also work to strengthen the SDR and also work to strengthen the alliance at the 2025 Hague summit, the alliance committed to 3.5% GDP the alliance committed to 3.5% GDP spend by 2035. So can the Minister say what conversations he's had with NATO partners around the dip, so that we can all work towards that increased spending goal?

16:07

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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My friend working with NATO partners is a key plank of how we increase the deterrence and security of the United Kingdom. In the past few days, I've had conversations with our friends in conversations with our friends in Norway around how we can build a combined frigate force. I've had conversations with our French, German, Polish and Italian allies about how we can bring forward more defence investment. Working together on a number of capabilities. We'll continue to do that. But as my hon. Friend has set out, we are committed to 3.5% of defence as part of 5% being spent on national security by 2035, 3% in the next Parliament, and I will continue to make the case for increased defence spending and more capabilities for our armed forces.

16:08

Cameron Thomas MP (Tewkesbury, Liberal Democrat)

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Cameron Thomas thank you, Mr. >> Cameron Thomas thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wanted to put on record. My respect for the members, for Rawmarsh and Conisbrough and for Rawmarsh and Conisbrough and for Birmingham Selly Oak both served in the roles they relinquished last week with the sincerity and integrity those roles demanded. Each should be commended for having put the needs of our country before their own this past week, citing their the government's underwhelming commitment to defence investment. Of course, the rest of us will just have to take their word for it.

I also have great respect for the Secretary of State for defence incumbent. I know he's with the King this week and unable to explain what it is about the government's approach that inspires him, but not his predecessor in his absence. I wonder if the Minister could explain to us when we will see the defence investment Plan, that he has now been left to front.

16:08

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Minister. >> Minister. >> I thank him for his question. It's the same answer that I've been given for quite some time. The Defence Investment Plan will be published ahead of the NATO summit in only a few weeks time. But can I join him in. In his words of thanks join him in. In his words of thanks to the previous Defence Secretary and also the previous Minister for the Armed Forces, having two people with a passion for defence serving alongside has been a real privilege for me.

I share that passion and commitment for the new Defence Secretary. We've got a job to get this right. We know it's important, we know it matters and that's why we're continuing to increase defence spending. A debate that says how quickly we're increasing that defence and what more can we do is a debate that I welcome. But let's also make sure we're talking about what we're spending it on and make sure within that debate, it's not just kitting equipment, it's mention.

16:09

Peter Prinsley MP (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket, Labour)

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Mr. Peter Prinsley. Thank you. spending. spending. >> But modern warfare, like warfare since time immemorial, depends on since time immemorial, depends on the bravery of our fighting men and our fighting women. But we also need nimble and effective industrial base for we used to have arrows. Then there were bullets and shells, now drones and tech. So how can we be best prepared for the next war and support the SMEs in places such as Suffolk?

16:10

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I thank him for his question? He is an assiduous raiser of the He is an assiduous raiser of the people in terms of tech. I've visited Suffolk, Suffolk and it is an area where I've seen SMEs do an area where I've seen SMEs do really well. Indeed, I've been to a drone manufacturing company from Ukraine set up in that part of the world. We need to learn the lessons from Ukraine, and that means more autonomy, more drones, more joined up way of thinking, a change in the way we fight, if only because the way that Russia has fought in Ukraine shows that some of the doctrine that we have traditionally worked on, that we inherited from the conservative.

What's the difference between the close and the deep? How does artillery and drones work together? How can you hold ground and take it have changed fundamentally? That's why we're setting out in the Defence Investment plan, the implementation of the SDR that starts that process, that gets us to a more lethal force.

16:11

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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Julian Lewis. I know the Minister accepts that. >> I've criticised successive governments for not spending anything like the 4.5% that anything like the 4.5% that Margaret Thatcher used to spend on defence at the height of the Cold defence at the height of the Cold War throughout the 1980s. But does he accept that the service chiefs have made an objective assessment of the government's own strategic defence review, and have arrived at the conclusion that the sum of £28 billion is necessary to implement it over, I believe, a four year period.

If he accepts that, how can he possibly go along with an offer from the Treasury of less than half the total needed Minister?

16:11

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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I have a lot of time for the right hon. Gentleman, and he and I right hon. Gentleman, and he and I were on different sides of the chamber, but made the case for increased defence spending and the last Parliament, and I'm glad that last Parliament, and I'm glad that he is with me in arguing for increased defence spending in this Parliament as well. We'll continue to make the case for that and look at how we can deliver those increased capabilities.

16:12

Gurinder Singh Josan MP (Smethwick, Labour)

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In the same Josh Dean. >> In the same Josh Dean. >> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> At the beginning, I attended the NATO Parliamentary Assembly Spring NATO Parliamentary Assembly Spring Assembly in Lithuania with representatives of other NATO and other allies, including Ukraine, other allies, including Ukraine, the Labour Party. Mr. speaker, you'll be aware the Labour Party has a strong tradition going back to Ernest Bevin in maintaining a strong and effective defence for our nation, both within NATO and independently.

So after 14 years and considering other NATO countries are already well ahead of us in relation to the proportion of their GDP, their spending on defence, what will the Minister be doing to ensure our armed forces receive the transformation they require to face modern day threats with an industrial sector to support, so that we do not betray Labour's strong defence tradition?

16:12

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Minister. >> Minister. >> I thank you. Amend the work that he does with the NATO Parliamentary Assembly. It's important that we not just have a Labour government not just have a Labour government that has a NATO first approach, but we have parliamentarians from all parties that make the case for UK leadership. We are working with a number of our NATO allies currently, both in terms of the coalition of the willing activity with Ukraine, but also the UK led mission, the Strait of Hormuz, that will help reopen and de-mine it in the future to work with our NATO friends to make sure we're increasing deterrence and, where possible, moving from interoperability to interchangeability to make sure the kit and equipment that we have is shared now, that increases war fighting ability.

It increases lethality, it smooth supply chains, and it poses a greater deterrent option against Russia, which is what we're going to continue doing. We will work with our NATO friends not only on joint procurement projects, but also how we can operate to train and deploy more together.

16:13

Brendan O'Hara MP (Argyll, Bute and South Lochaber, Scottish National Party)

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Brendan O'Hara thank you, Mr. Speaker. Just when the high North and the Arctic is emerging is one and the Arctic is emerging is one of the world's most important strategic hotspots, we witnessed a major UK government department disintegrate before our eyes when the Secretary of State, because of the parsimony of the Treasury, resigned, taking with him the armed forces Minister and a junior Minister, how does he think that the Prime Minister will convince our NATO allies that he is capable of defending that strategically important Greenland, Iceland, UK gap when he cannot even convince Preston?

16:14

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Well, can I thank him for his question? It's not normal that the question? It's not normal that the SNP have a very strong pro defence line, but it is a, you know, I guess perhaps welcome. And if this is a change of heart from the Scottish Nationalists, I would broadly welcome that. He will have seen the action over the weekend against Russia's shadow fleet. He will also know of the work that we do out of Scotland, both in terms of Faslane with the submarine operating base, but also RAF Lossiemouth, for instance, with the P-8 maritime patrol aircraft and the quick reaction response aircraft that we have from there, ensuring that we work with, in particular our Norwegian allies, but our allies across the High North, the Defence Investment Plan only increases the investment in that part of the world, because it is an area where we're seeing increased risk from Russia.

We're seeing an increased number of Russian boats in ships in our waters, and we know the threats to our underseas cable and our airspace is real and increasing. And I hope that we can find a new cross-party consensus with the SNP, which I hope will start with the SNP government funding the second dtec in Scotland to give our young people the skills they need. Chris Webb thank you.

16:15

Chris Webb MP (Blackpool South, Labour)

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Mr. Speaker. I am proud that Blackpool and the Fylde College in Blackpool and the Fylde College in my constituency has been selected as one of the five defence as one of the five defence technical colleges which will and is part of a major national investment in skills. But given the significant opportunities this brings to Blackpool and its potential, can the Minister confirm that if this Defence Investment Plan will supply and support young people with the careers it needs in the defence industry?

16:16

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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It was a real privilege to be in >> It was a real privilege to be in Blackpool for the announcement of the five English d techs. It is an opportunity, I think, for the very opportunity, I think, for the very first time, for defence, to invest in skills of our young people, and he will have seen not only a Labour government investing in further education with the five TECs in England, one in Wales, hopefully two in Scotland. But he will also have seen in the last week our announcement of a funding for more further education colleges and universities to provide defence and defence adjacent skills because to deliver on the increased defence spending we are making, we're going to need to see more investment in skills, especially between 16 and 19 year olds, graduates and an area that's talked about less, which is retraining mid careers, which I know Blackpool has a real focus on, especially working with Bay systems on the typhoons out of Salisbury and Warton.

16:16

Dame Harriett Baldwin MP (West Worcestershire, Conservative)

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Harriett Baldwin thank. >> Harriett Baldwin thank. >> You very much, Mr. Speaker. On the 1st. >> Of July. >> The Trade.

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The Trade. Minister is slapping a 50% tariff on steel from many of our tariff on steel from many of our allies, much of which goes into the aerospace and defence supply chain that will affect the cost of his defence investment plan. So can he urgently review those tariffs and their impact on our defence spending? Because I'm sure the Minister will agree that he wants to get the most bang for his money in terms of funding, defence.

16:17

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Minister. >> Minister. >> Can I thank her for her question? She's right in arguing that we need particular issue that she raises.

16:17

John Glen Mr. Speaker. additional money needed for defence for a very long time. Can I just ask the Minister what would he do with more money that he can't do with more money that he can't do now? Minister I thank my friend for his question. Look, I want to see his question. Look, I want to see more defence spending, but the way that we have drafted the defence Investment Plan is as a scalable proposition. So with more defence spending, we would see more drones, more investment in our stockpile.

16:18

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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We will see a faster recovery of personnel numbers. We'll see more investment in autonomy and the investment in autonomy and the hybrid navy, and we'll see more investment in housing and the regeneration of our estates, in regeneration of our estates, in particular the regeneration of our ports and our naval refit facilities that would make such a big difference towards availability. The dip is deliberately designed to be a scalable plan to reflect the spending that we receive.

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spending that we receive. Sir Desmond Swayne. Mr. Speaker, the Minister told us that the former Secretary of State had asked him to stay. Had he not been so asked, would he have resigned too? Yes. How much persuasion did it take? Yes, sir.

16:19

Rt Hon Sir Desmond Swayne MP (New Forest West, Conservative)

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Here's a good one. I have to say, as someone who comes from a defence family, who's the Leader of the

16:19

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Opposition sighs. Look, let's talk about those people who have a proud military family that they come from. I'm proud that my old man was a submariner. I'm proud of his service. I represent a military service. I represent a military city. It has taken years upon years to get a Labour government. I respect the decision that my former ministry ministerial colleagues made. I decided to stay. I was encouraged to stay. There's a good encouraged to stay. There's a good reason for doing so, and given the activities that we've seen over the weekend, I can say that I'm proud to be continuing to work alongside some incredibly brave and professional people in our armed forces to keep our nation safe.

16:19

Adam Jogee MP (Newcastle-under-Lyme, Labour)

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Adam Jogee thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. right hon. Friend the Member for Rawmarsh and those who worked in his office, and I'm very sorry to see them go. Mr. speaker, I thank the Minister for his response, but I have to say to him, this is one heck of a mess. I know how difficult it can be to work with the Treasury, and I know there's much we have to do, but my constituents want to know that we'll do whatever we must to keep them safe.

So when I go home on Thursday, how can I tell them that we will?

16:20

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Minister can I thank him for his question? Look, we have already question? Look, we have already increasing defence spending. We're already renewing our forces. We're already fixing defence housing. already fixing defence housing. We're already increasing the pay of our armed forces. We're already tackling the toxic culture that existed in our armed forces to make working in defence good for every single person. But I want to see that go faster, go further. With more defence spending, we can deliver more and greater deterrence and greater lethality.

A debate around increasing defence spending is a welcome one for me. As someone who feels passionate about defence, I have a lot of time for the former defence secretary and the former armed forces Minister and the arguments that they have made, I want to see more defence spending. The new Defence Secretary wants to get the best deal for our armed forces, and I know the Prime Minister, the Chancellor equally are planning to increase defence spending, a debate that says how fast, by when and spending on what is a debate that I welcome.

16:21

Rt Hon Sir Jeremy Hunt MP (Godalming and Ash, Conservative)

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Sir Jeremy Hunt Mr. Speaker, I recognise the Minister has a recognise the Minister has a difficult job to do today, but has he not noticed that even though Labour has three times more MPs, Labour has three times more MPs, there have been nearly twice as many conservatives here today? And is that not because his colleagues are voting with their feet and saying that the former defence Secretary was right and cannot defend the indefensible?

16:21

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Yeah. >> Can I thank the right hon. Member for his question, as he will know, if he was in more defence questions? I like defence scrutiny, questions? I like defence scrutiny, I like defence debates and as far as I'm concerned, Mr. Speaker, let's everyone go round again because the more questions on defence, especially on capabilities, not timing, not what happened last week, but on the capabilities we need to invest in, is a debate that I welcome.

16:21

Andrew Lewin MP (Welwyn Hatfield, Labour)

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Andrew Lewin thank you, Mr. Speaker. Conservatives hollowing out our defence. The present is a story of this government spending more than they did at any time over 14 years. they did at any time over 14 years. But my question is about the future. Our brave allies in Ukraine have revolutionised warfare. They might want to listen to this. It's serious. They have shown the effectiveness of drone technology. They are turning the tables on the Russians in the defence investment plan.

How can we learn from our allies in Ukraine?

16:22

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Minister. >> Can I thank him for his question? I know the Conservatives don't like hearing about their hollowing out of the armed forces. That is what we inherited. That's what we're we inherited. That's what we're trying to put right. And if they had spent the level of defence spend, they now argue for when they were in power only two years ago, perhaps we wouldn't have such a big challenge today. I don't like it when they groan about our armed forces. I don't think it's respectful enough for what we need, however.

But for his question about here, when we look at Ukraine, we can see not only the drone technology, we can see the way that's changing with an electronic warfare environment. We're supporting that. We're buying 120,000 drones this year for our friends in Ukraine, utilising cutting edge British technology, some brilliant British companies working with brilliant Ukrainian companies. And we're not only looking at small drones, we're not just looking at the e.w environment, we're not just looking at radars and command and control systems.

What I'm seeing from Ukraine is how we build those all together. The former Minister for the armed forces set out very clearly from from his perspective, how we can learn from Ukraine. The Strategic Defence Review sets out how we're learning from Ukraine, and the Defence Investment Plan sets out how we will buy more drone technology and learn there. But a but more investment going into defence is one that I welcome. And the more that we can learn from Ukraine, the greater deterrent capability we have to stop Putin looking over the NATO boundary and thinking he can have a go at a Baltic state somewhere along the eastern flank or even the United Kingdom.

16:23

Rt Hon Jeremy Corbyn MP (Islington North, Your Party)

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Jeremy Corbyn. Thank you, Mr. >> Jeremy Corbyn. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This year, global arms expenditure will be around $3 trillion. Every country that is raising expenditure is doing so through taxation, through cuts or through taxation, through cuts or through debt. In drawing up this defence spending strategy, what consideration did his Department or the foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office give to a strategy for multilateral negotiations, for the dÃ©tente, for peace in the future as a way of everybody benefiting from a peace dividend of less being spent on arms rather than more?

16:24

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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First of all, the people that I wasn't expecting to be arguing for more defence spending, I wasn't certain the right hon. Gentleman would be doing so. But let me say very clearly to him, NATO is the guarantor of much of our security. We are proud to have a NATO first policy in this government, working with our NATO allies across the Euro-Atlantic area to deter Russian aggression. We can see what happens when deterrence fails. We can look at our friends in Ukraine to see Russian aggression.

We can see the attacks on civilian infrastructure, including overnight, an attack that we correctly condemn for the brutality and illegality of targeting civilian infrastructure. We can see what happens when deterrence fails. That's why we're investing more in defence to increase our deterrence. We're doing so alongside our allies in order to prevent conflict in the future. This is a really important task. It's the first duty of the government. I want to see more defence spending, because I don't want to see the United Kingdom in a war like our friends in Ukraine are fighting now.

That's why we must continue to support our friends in Ukraine for as long as it takes, and invest in the new kit and capabilities that our forces need

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to deter aggression. And that's what this Labour government will do. Tessa Munt thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was asked that a.

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Falklands War veterans conference in Poole last week. To reassure our. Serving personnel that. deterrents.

16:25

Jessica Toale MP (Bournemouth West, Labour)

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deterrents. >> We need to keep this nation safe. Now. This Labour government has invested.

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invested. In defence housing, increased defence. Spending and. Increased retention and recruitment in the army.

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Now, by contrast, because there's been a lot of groaning on the other side of the House, I want to give a specific between 2010 and 2020, for the size of our Army shrank by 30% under the last conservative government. So can the Minister confirm that there will be a fully funded plan to deliver this government's vision for defence? And can he give my constituents that reassurance that we will always keep this nation safe?

16:26

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I thank my friend for her question? And can I also say thank question? And can I also say thank you to all those people who served in the Falklands, both in the 1982 conflict, because yesterday was, I conflict, because yesterday was, I think, the 4040 second anniversary of the Liberation Day, something that is celebrated not just across the United Kingdom but also in the Falkland Islands. It's important that we remember the sacrifice of those people who went to the South Atlantic and never came back.

And that's precisely for me, one of the reasons why I want to see more defence investment, why I want to see us have the deterrent capability, because coming from a military family, with members of my family that have served in across the forces, I know that when they go away, there's always a question mark about whether they will come home. And it is precisely because of that that drives me and my passion to say we need more defence spending. We need to spend it on kit and equipment that keeps our people safe, that provides deterrence and war fighting capability.

And that is exactly what this Labour government is doing investing in our people, investing in our forces. Of course, I want to see more defence spending. That's an argument that we're making and will continue to do so with the Defence Investment Investment Plan published before the NATO summit.

16:27

Rt Hon Edward Argar MP (Melton and Syston, Conservative)

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Diego. response to the question from my right hon. Friend the former Defence Secretary, I welcome the Minister's response and his reaffirmation of the government's commitment to all the recommendations in the Strategic Defence Review, given that, at the current time, how many of those 62 recommendations have the funding they need fully agreed and committed by the Treasury?

16:27

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Thank you sir. We support all 62 recommendations of the SDR. They're all in progress. Currently, the all in progress. Currently, the Defence Investment Plan sets out how we will deliver our equipment, our personnel and our estates for our personnel and our estates for the next ten years that will deliver that. I want to see more defence investment. The argument that was made by my former colleagues is one that is powerful. I do want to see more defence spending, and that is an argument that if we're having that debate across the House is one that I welcome.

16:28

Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )

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Chris Vince thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the Minister for his answers. Can I also take for his answers. Can I also take this opportunity to work? My welcome, my hon. Friend from Leyton and Wanstead to his rightful place on the front bench. His experience on the front bench. His experience in the armed forces will be really useful for this government moving forward. And he also knows my constituent of Harlow very well, constituent of Harlow very well, which is particularly useful. I'm sure you will all agree, as my hon.

Friend the Member for Bournemouth has stolen my thunder. I was going to say that actually our armed forces, the most important part of our armed forces are our people, our soldiers, our naval personnel, our our sailors, and also other staff. So can the Minister reassure me that he will continue to champion our armed forces, ensure they have all they need to do their jobs and keep us all safe?

16:29

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Yes, Minister. >> Yes, Minister. >> Mr. speaker, I can confirm that we will be continuing to invest in our people. I think it was the late 80s was the last time that we had defence review that didn't cut the defence review that didn't cut the size of the British army in the in the Strategic Defence review that was published under this Labour government, we announced that we will increase the size of the British Army to 76000. We know that the army strength fell considerably under the Conservatives.

We know that we've seen a retention recruitment crisis under the Conservatives for our forces. It is precisely that that we've got after. With the biggest pay rise for armed forces action on housing and childcare. And I welcome my new colleagues, the new Minister for Veterans and People. But can I say, I'm also really proud of the new Minister for the Armed Forces, another veteran serving in a key role, and both of them will do a good job for our nation.

16:29

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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Andrew Murrison for resignation >> Andrew Murrison for resignation letter. The genuinely honourable and genuinely gallant member for and genuinely gallant member for Selly Oak made it very clear that he was leaving, not just because he considered the dip to be underfunded, but more particularly because it planned to spend the money on the wrong things, preparing to fight the last war, not the war to come. He was right, wasn't he?

16:30

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Yeah. >> Look. >> I have a lot of time for the former defence secretary and the former armed forces Minister. I former armed forces Minister. I agree with much of the argument that they have made around the importance of increasing defence spending. It's the reason why I've set out continuously from the Dispatch Box today that I want to see more defence spending, and I want to see it direct to the British companies. I want to see us prepare to deter the next conflict.

And so to do that, we need to invest more in drones. That's what the Defence Investment plan will set out. But as I've set out also to a question from a colleague on my side of the House, the Defence Investment Plan is a deliberately scaleable document that can reflect an increasing defence Budget. That's what we're projecting over the coming decade, delivering our commitment to 3.5% on core defence by 2035. Spending more on the new capabilities does mean, though, retiring old capabilities, it does mean doing something that the armed forces have not done for a very long time.

And that means discarding some of that kit equipment that's been around for many, many decades and investing in newer technologies. Now, that's a difficult argument for Ministers to make. It's a difficult argument for those people that are attached to old equipment in particular. But when we have armour that's been in service since before the Vietnam War, where we have ships that are decades past their decommissioning date, we do need to be honest about the need to retire old equipment and buy new equipment. The hybrid navy is just one example of what we'll be setting out in the Defence Investment Plan.

16:31

Sarah Pochin MP (Runcorn and Helsby, Reform UK)

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Sarah Pochin thank you, Mr. Speaker. >> That our Prime Minister, in stark contrast to all other previous modern day Prime Ministers, previous modern day Prime Ministers, has never visited our Special Forces headquarters in Hereford. Is this a reflection of how low down his priorities list defence is?

16:32

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Oral Question. things I would say to the hon. Member. I know she's a relatively new in this House, but the first thing I will say is we don't thing I will say is we don't comment on special forces. It's a really important rule. We neither confirm nor deny activities nor visit to any special forces location. We do that deliberately because any question that helps define who is where, what they are doing is a benefit to our adversaries. Now, I appreciate she's looking for a gotcha question with that.

With that. But but let me take her back to the important things. We don't comment on special forces. What I have seen from our

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Prime Minister and the former defence Secretary Is then meeting the crews of our ballistic submarines when they ballistic submarines when they return on zero day after many, many months under the sea. I've seen them support the brilliant service them support the brilliant service of armed forces personnel. But I'm afraid you will not get me, nor any other government Minister other government Minister commenting on armed forces. And may I suggest to her that next time she thinks carefully about asking questions like that again?

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questions like that again? Shall Luke Charters. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. speaker.

16:33

Rt Hon Sir Alec Shelbrooke MP (Wetherby and Easingwold, Conservative)

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I was a NATO PA last week, and I thought I understood why the former Secretary of State for defence had resigned standing here today. I resigned standing here today. I think it's really unknown why he resigned, according to the Minister. But, Mr. Speaker, when the Minister is right, he's talking about making sure that naval procurement doesn't go through the problems that it had in the past. One of the consequences of being in power with liberal Democrats. But in terms of procuring ships, there are shipyards, Mr.

Speaker, who are worried about whether they can maintain their workforces because without the dip, they don't know. And I am concerned to read that the type 83 destroyer may be postponed as well. So may I ask the Minister directly? Yes or no? Is all of the plans that are currently in place for capital ships going to remain, or is that up for debate as well?

16:34

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I thank him for his question? And he will know from his time in And he will know from his time in the Ministry of Defence and on the NATO PA that getting procurement right and fixing a broken procurement system that we inherited is important. We've inherited is important. We've already made a number of steps to get there. He will recall, I think, from the last urgent question on this topic last week, that I answered around the type 83. And so if he wants to look back on that debate, he'll get his answer to that one there.

But let me say to him very clearly, we inherited an equipment plan that was overcommitted and unsuitable to the challenges that we now face. That's one of the reasons why we are looking to invest more in autonomy, more in hybrid and uncrewed systems, and especially for the Royal Navy. As he mentioned, the importance of air defence, looking at how uncrewed systems can sail alongside crewed systems, providing the air defence bubble, learning the lessons from our friends in Ukraine and recent activities in the Middle East and Cyprus will be an important part, and he'll be able to recognise that immediately when he reads the dip when it's published.

16:35

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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Vikki Slade Mr Speaker Martin, from Wimborne, contacted me at the weekend to share his suggestion to weekend to share his suggestion to fund the Defence Investment Plan. He thinks that the Lib Dem idea of issuing defence bonds is a really issuing defence bonds is a really sensible one, and has told me that, in his view, there are many people with money in cash ISAs who might be tempted to invest if the investment was taken out of their inheritance tax liability. So will the Minister confirm whether discussions are happening about innovative ways to access the capital needed to ensure that the dip can be fully funded?

16:35

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Minister. >> Can I thank her for her question? I think it was, Martin his interest in how we increase defence spending. She will know from the debates that She will know from the debates that we've had in this chamber that it's not just the defence investment plan that we're working on currently. We're also looking at how, through a defence finance and investment strategy, working with our Defence advisory group for city professionals, that we can look at accessing new forms of capital, both patient, sovereign and a whole range of capital options.

I know that she and her party are keen on the war bonds option. I may say I'm happy looking at the detailed analysis if her party has any on it. But what I would also say is it's not just investing in core defence that we need investment in. It's investing in the supply chain in particular. And that's especially true of those small SMEs with huge growth potential. As to how can we ensure that they can compete for contracts. So it's one of the reasons we're looking at new ways of procuring the commercial procurement model.

Learning the lessons from task force kindred for Ukraine procurement. We're bringing those into mainstream UK armed forces procurement to speed it up, which means more SMEs will be able to benefit from it. But more capital injection into defence, both from the government, as we're planning but also from private sources, is a good course. very.

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Much, Madam Deputy Speaker. Last week. The former Defence secretary said that the Prime Minister was unable and the Chancellor was unwilling to fund the resources needed to tackle the threats facing our nation. Does the Minister agree

16:36

Dr Neil Shastri-Hurst MP (Solihull West and Shirley, Conservative)

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our nation. Does the Minister agree with that assessment and if not, why not? >> Minister.

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Minister. I've seen the Defence Secretary. I'm sorry, the previous Defence Secretary make the case for defence

16:37

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Secretary make the case for defence spending. I've seen the Prime Minister and the Chancellor increase defence spending since Labour came to office. I know that there is a very strong case that to meet the moment, we need to further increase defence spending. That's why the new Defence Secretary has been speaking both to the Prime Minister and to cross-government colleagues about how best we can deliver that and deliver a dip that will increase our warfighting capability, end the hollowing out and the the absence of funding in the equipment plan.

About 30% of the equipment plan we inherited was unfunded from the Conservatives. Lots of work to do, but we published it before the NATO summit.

16:37

Tim Farron MP (Westmorland and Lonsdale, Liberal Democrat)

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Tim Farron thank. >> Tim Farron thank. >> You, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> The sluggish. >> And. Unambitious delivery of the Defence Investment Plan is not the Defence Investment Plan is not the only threat to our security, given that we have Russian ships threatening our cables and such like. Would he agree with me the fact that the United Kingdom is reliant for its food supply, 45% of it on imports, that that is no longer a economic convenience. It is a national security liability.

And will he recognise that England. England is now the only country in the UK and the only country in Europe that doesn't directly support its farmers to produce food? Isn't that a threat to our national security, to Minister?

16:38

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Well, when I held the shadow Environment brief, he and I were. Environment brief, he and I were. In many debates. I made the case strongly that food security is national security. It's something national security. It's something that really matters. But he will also know about. He mentions cables as well that we're investing in not only the operations that RFA Proteus, but also HMS Stirling Castle can undertake to support our undersea infrastructure. We need to continue to support those items, and he will see more in the defence investment plan.

Defra issues cover food security here, but I do agree with him that food security is national security.

16:39

Dr Kieran Mullan MP (Bexhill and Battle, Conservative)

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Kieran Mullan Madam Deputy Speaker Madam Speaker, the former defence Secretary, knows what was in, knows what's in the defence in, knows what's in the defence investment plan, thought it was inadequate and resigned as a result. I'm sure the Minister wouldn't be so shameless and disrespectful to this House to spend an hour defending that plan if he himself hasn't seen it in full. So a very easy question for the Minister, yes or no? Has he seen the Defence Investment Plan in full?

16:39

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Minister? Yes, I've been involved with doing it. Let me let me be very let me be very clear to answer his question in full. I know answer his question in full. I know his frontbench want to shout at me, but let them listen just for a moment. The Defence Investment Plan is a good scaleable plan that provides the capabilities. I've just. He's asking me, have I seen that? I've just replied yes. He needs to listen to the answer. Yes, I have seen it.

I've been involved with writing it. The plan itself is a good plan. The debate here is about the funding that goes into it, and I'm up for a debate that says, how do we increase defence spending? Because I want to see more capabilities. I want to see defence housing improve faster. I want to see more support and recovery of the strength of our armed forces. That's precisely what the Defence Investment Plan will set out, and making the case for more funding to go into that is a good one.

16:40

Ayoub Khan MP (Birmingham Perry Barr, Independent)

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Are you confident? If there's anything the last few months has taught us, it's that military might is no guarantee of security. Trump deployed the full force of its military, dropping bombs and killing thousands in Iran, and it's brought nothing but mounting debt and a far worse deal than the one Obama struck without firing a single missile. In addition, Trump and Netanyahu have wiped more than $2 trillion from the global economy and brought energy price hikes thought to have pushed 100,000 Brits out of work.

Now, of course, that does not mean we abrogate our responsibilities and don't support our armed forces in personnel and the deterrence that we need. But unlike the opposition leader, does the Minister agree that careful diplomacy and tackling the cost of living crisis, especially for the most vulnerable, does more to bring security than any bomb?

16:40

Rebecca Smith MP (South West Devon, Conservative)

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Try and keep it short. Minister. Gentleman that he reads the new defence diplomacy strategy that we published a few months ago to deliver on what he's just asked me. >> Rebecca. Thank you, Madam Deputy

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Rebecca. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Members of 42 Commando Royal Marines, led by Commanding Officer Tom Quinn, were a key part of the seizure of the Russian Shadow Fleet vessel yesterday morning. Now, it's clear that our Royal Marines will always deliver for this country. They are world class, and I've had the privilege of seeing them in action at their home in Bickley Barracks in my constituency. But their ability to succeed can only be sustained if we invest in our defence and prepare for the wars of tomorrow.

The former armed forces Minister, a former Royal Marine himself, said in his resignation letter we are still purchasing capability suitable for the last war whilst our adversaries are for the next one. Does the Minister agree?

16:41

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Can I thank her? As a fellow Plymouth MP, I was extremely proud of the Royal Marines from 42 Commando in Plymouth for participating in the action. If you were to look at 47 Commando, another Royal Marines unit based in Plymouth, she will be able to see some of the new capabilities that we've bought to support them. The Kraken K3 Scouts, for instance, will continue giving our Royal Marines the capabilities that they have because the Royal Marines have a bright future ahead of them and superb professionalism, as we've seen from the weekend.

16:42

Robin Swann MP (South Antrim, Ulster Unionist Party)

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Robin Swann Madam Deputy. >> Speaker, the Minister said that the Defence Investment Plan will be published following a line by line review. So obviously the previous Secretary of State was resigned because he could no longer review it downwards any further because of the actions of the Treasury. He's also set a scalable. What assurances can the Minister give that it's scalable upwards in regards to spend and not downwards, as the Treasury has already said, that they're unable and unwilling to fund it further.

16:42

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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So we're already increasing defence spending. We will continue defence spending. We will continue to increase defence spending. The Defence Investment Plan is designed to be scalable to match that increased defence spending. The question is what profile that increase should have. I'm always going to be arguing for more defence spending, but we're increasing defence spending and that's something that I want to see more of.

16:42

Dr Luke Evans MP (Hinckley and Bosworth, Conservative)

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Kevin. >> And the Business. >> Secretary on the. Weekend said a lot of time and effort had gone. >> Into the. >> Defence investment plan, but

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Defence investment plan, but when push, he hadn't read it. The Defence Secretary and his colleague have read it and they resign now. have read it and they resign now. He said he'd read it in full. Why did he decide not to resign when his two colleagues in the department did resign?

16:43

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Minister I answer that question in my earlier remarks. >> Jim Shannon thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I first of all put on record my thanks to the former Secretary of State and the former Secretary of State and the Minister for their principled stand in relation to defence spending. Over the weekend, one of the government Ministers on the Laura Kuenssberg show referred to Exeter defence funding. The Minister, the new Secretary of State, which I welcome to this place. I wish him well the hon.

Member that he is. He also, I understand, has committed to extra, extra funding. So as the DUP MP representing a region with a proud historic military tradition and a thriving defence sector manufacturing base, what immediate assurances can the Minister give to the thousands of skilled defence, aerospace and maritime workers across Northern Ireland whose cutting edge capabilities are vital to reinforcing our sovereign defence industrial base and. And we must never compromise the territorial integrity.

16:44

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Tatton Minister. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would point the hon. Gentleman to not just the £1.6 billion contract that we've placed with Thales in Belfast for their missiles supporting our friends in Ukraine. But the increasing investment that we're working with us on to support our Middle Eastern friends and the £15 million Northern Ireland Defence Growth deal that's especially supporting the SMEs in Northern Ireland to be able to access more of that increasing defence spending. But I want to see more defence spending in Northern Ireland, as I want to see more Kingdom.

will.

16:44

Ben Obese-Jecty MP (Huntingdon, Conservative)

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Know that we've. now since last year, and in April we signed the interim funding contract for for Edwing, which was £686 million. That runs out in just two weeks time. Now, yesterday, the Prime Minister obviously met with Takaichi, the Japanese Prime Minister, and Japan being one of the partners in GCap. Can he confirm that there was an agreement that he signed the now the full international contract, and can he guarantee that funding will be in place before the money runs out at the end of June?

16:44

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Minister. >> Minister. >> It's unusual for him not to be on the on the money in terms of the questions. But as the media reports questions. But as the media reports from yesterday's from the weekend's meeting make clear, will be signing the full international contract by the end of the month. We are committed to GCap.

16:45

Mike Wood MP (Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, Conservative)

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Final question. clear that the previous Defence Secretary asked him to remain in post. So will he be equally clear and tell us exactly what in the letter sent by the previous Defence Secretary to the Prime Minister about the Defence Investment Plan last Thursday, he disagrees with her.

16:45

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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Minister. >> There's lots that I agree with, with the former defence Secretary and there's lots that I. He and I have worked together very for a have worked together very for a very long time on this. I respect his decision and those of the former armed forces Minister. I'm staying to get this done to deliver a defence investment plan, and that's why I'm going to continue working with our brand new Defence Secretary to get a good deal for defence and to make sure that we are supporting our armed forces.

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That is the end of the question. On the Defence Investment plan. I'll give the front benches a I ask colleagues to be seated. Before we come to the statements I must place on record Mr. Speaker's disappointment that the Prime Minister has chosen the Prime Minister's chosen Downing Street over this House to make the important announcement about banning under 16 from social media.

16:46

Speakers statement Ms Nusrat Ghani MP (Sussex Weald, Conservative)

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The Prime Minister's very own rule book states that important policy announcements should be made in the first instance in this House when it is sitting. His approach this it is sitting. His approach this morning is symptomatic of a pattern of disrespect for this House from number ten. The government said it will update the ministerial code on this point, and I urge them to get this point, and I urge them to get on with it. In the meantime, they must stick with the rules as they are set out.

Mr. speaker wishes to thank the Secretary of State, who is a shining example of a Minister taking the code seriously on this matter and not briefing out her statement before she has come to the House. Secretary state.

16:47

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Today marks a defining moment for Today marks a defining moment for our children and future generations as we lay the foundations for a new settlement for the online world to ensure children have the best start in life, to give them freedom to be children again. And so we put power back into parents, hands up and down the country. Parents are grappling with social media. What their children are seeing, how much screen time they should have, who they are communicating with, and if they are safe.

Many children love connecting and interacting on social media, but others struggle with their mental health, concentration and self-esteem, and the police, children's charities and far too many tragically bereaved families have seen for themselves the serious risks and harm social media brings. While these concerns are widely shared, there are different, often strongly held views about the best way forward. That is why we launched our consultation on growing up in the online world to make sure everyone's voices were heard.

The response has been overwhelming. We've had over 116,000 replies, including 54,000 from parents and 14,000 from children. We've heard from charities, teachers organisations, the police and medical professionals, and from countless members of Parliament to not only the Science and Technology and Education select committees, but individual members, including the hon. Members for Plymouth Moor View, Croydon East, Cowdenbeath and Kirkcaldy, Dunfermline and Dollar and so, so many more. Besides. The progress report we published today sets out lots of different perspectives, but overwhelmingly our consultation shows parents and children are concerned about what they're being exposed to online.

Harmful content content that is completely inappropriate for their age, abuse and exploitation. They're worried about the impact on sleep, school, children's physical health, and their emotional well-being, too. Above all, parents are crying out for change. Nine out of ten parents who responded to the consultation told us they want an outright ban on social media, as did three quarters in our large scale representative survey and 113,000 parents who signed Darzi and Jo's smartphone free childhood petition.

Keeping children safe online has been my top priority since day one. In this job, I've listened to calls, especially from bereaved families, that we need to act as quickly as possible. So today I can announce our first steps with more to come next month, and I can confirm we will ban social media companies providing

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their services to under 16. To give greater protection. Order.

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Order. Was the clapping in the chamber? No. No, they should not be clapping in the chamber or in the gallery. No doubt the doorkeepers will remove people if they need to.

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remove people if they need to. Minister and we are doing this to give greater protections to to give greater protections to children, greater clarity for parents and carers, and to set a new social norm for future generations. My intention is to lay regulations on a ban and have a vote on it by the end of this year, with the ban coming into effect early 2027, we plan to use the same model as Australia, covering user to user platforms that allow users to post material alongside algorithms.

So our ban will include platforms like Snapchat, TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook and X, because we want to make sure we don't include educational services, e-commerce platforms or music streaming. There will be a narrowly defined list of exemptions, which we will, of course, keep under review. Madam Deputy Speaker, I have also listened to parents, to civil society and to many MPs in this House, including the members for Putney, Lowestoft Congleton and Newcastle upon Tyne about the need to go further so I can today announce our first steps in restricting a wider range of features and functions that create risks for young people, because it can open the door to vile child abuse.

We will ban live streaming for under 16 seconds across all platforms, and we will ban communication with strangers, including in gaming, to stop paedophiles, meeting and grooming children. And Madam Deputy Speaker, we are not stopping there. AI chatbots were a top concern of parents who responded to our consultation, particularly those that mimic intimate relationships and exploit vulnerabilities, the Children's Commissioner and my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury and Milton Keynes Central have also raised this issue. So today, Britain is becoming the first country in the world to ban chatbots that offer sexualised content to under 1618, and we will restrict this functionality on general purpose chatbots too.

We know there are also really serious concerns about other AI chatbots like therapy apps, but I recognise that some of these may have benefits. So I am working closely with the Department of Health and others to assess the evidence, and I will come back to the House on this issue and wider measures on AI chatbots. In a further statement next month. Madam Deputy Speaker, we also want to address concerns about a cliff edge. When you turn 16, an age when many young people should be especially focussed on their futures and on exams.

So I can today announce live streaming and stranger communication, including in gaming, will be switched off by default for 16 and 17 year olds. I am also strongly minded to bring in default overnight curfews and breaks in infinite scrolling for 16 and 17 year olds, and I will set out further details once our pilot schemes are finished in my statement next July in in July. Madam Deputy Speaker, I know that not everybody supports a ban, and I have listened really carefully to those concerns, and I want to take each in turn.

First, we've seen in Australia that many children will try and succeed in getting round a ban. I think that is inevitable when social media has been such an integral part of their lives. So we will introduce more highly effective age assurance measures to better support compliance, and I have asked Ofcom to share proposals on this within months. However, I want to be clear to parents and to members of this House that our ban is as much about helping future generations and resetting social norms in future as it is about young people today.

Second, people worry that a ban would push children onto riskier, less regulated sites, and this is something I really take extremely seriously. So I have had a long conversation with and written to Ofcom and the new chair to stress once again that enforcement of both the Online Safety Act and a new ban must be a top priority, that they must focus rigorously on this, including riskier sites, and to ask them for an urgent review of whether Ofcom has the right capabilities in place.

I have also asked them to publish a clear enforcement strategy and an annual report to on how this strategy is progressing. We must prepare children for the online world, which will inevitably be part of their lives. Now, many schools are already doing this, but from September this year, every pupil across England will learn about social media in the classroom, including about AI and how to spot deepfakes. My department has also produced new advice for parents on how to talk to children about the online world called You Won't Know if You Don't Ask.

So schools and parents together. Preparing children for the future. And last but by no means least, the NSPCC and the hon. Members for Kettering, Hertford and Stortford and North West Cambridgeshire have all rightly raised the importance of ensuring all young people can access information, trusted support and exciting activities, especially if they're no longer spending so much time online and we are delivering on this to the Education Secretary and Cultural Secretary. Secretary are expanding what's on offer in every school and beyond the classroom, including in after school clubs, in the holidays and at weekends by support for a wide range of enrichment activities like art, music, sport, cooking, camping and museum visits things that were once only available to those who can afford them.

Now, for every pupil in England, and in stark contrast to members opposite who cut youth services by 75%, we are investing £500 million in our Youth Matters National Youth Strategy, so children from all walks of life, wherever they live, can access youth services, sport and the arts. Madam Deputy Speaker, my driving force, the reason I came into politics has always been and will always be to give every child, from every background the best possible start in life, because that's how they and our country succeed.

Today, we take a decisive step towards creating a safer, healthier life for our children and future generations, giving children their childhood back. I am clear eyed about all the challenges social media brings for adults, as well as for children, and that technology constantly changes. So today's announcement is not one and done or the end of the story. There is still much more to do, but this is a landmark day, a day when we stand with parents, charities, bereaved families and all those who have campaigned for change.

This is your moment. It's a day when we take power away from the tech giants, who have had countless opportunities to keep children safe and put it back in parents hands. A day when we give our children the freedom to be children again so they have the best possible start in life. And I commend this statement to the House.

16:59

Julia Lopez MP (Hornchurch and Upminster, Conservative)

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I call this Halifax Julia Lopez. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy. the. >> Secretary of State for somewhat infamous for her impatience, I think, waiting for the Prime think, waiting for the Prime Minister to opine on something she does genuinely care about must have been as frustrating for her as it has been for us today, the Prime Minister announced as his shot at a legacy, something six months ago that he said he was personally opposed to a ban on social media for under 16 seconds.

We can be grateful that he got there in the end, but the victory is not his. Thanks must go to some of the Gutsier Labour backbenchers and we heard them all cited today. The Leader of the Opposition, the Shadow Education Secretary, and in particular my noble friend Lord Nash, for his dogged determination in pursuing his amendments. But above all, we must thank those parents who took the senseless tragedy that befell their families and turned their pain into a legacy that will benefit so many children.

They have conducted themselves with dignity and grace, and many sit today in the gallery to see the results of their courage. The Prime Minister's about turn tells many stories. Madam Deputy Speaker, if this was a man with views, his position could have been laid out at the start of the year, with the consultation used as a chance to polish the policy. As it is, officials heads have been left spinning, trying to retrofit details to this Damascene conversion. The Prime Minister likes to make a virtue of process, but he has used process in this case as a tool to avoid doing what so many in this chamber said was not only inevitable, but right and entirely necessary.

We've had votes. The Prime Minister instructed his troops three times to vote against a ban. We've had debates. The Prime Minister wouldn't give a view. But lo, a career critical by election comes along. And on realising that protecting kids is not just popular but vital, the Prime Minister has finally found his voice. With Makerfield going to the polls on Thursday. Madam Deputy Speaker, perhaps we should use the next couple of days to maximum effect and try to extract his opinions on funding, defence, cutting welfare, getting cheap energy because this country has been waiting for leadership for too long.

As conservatives, we believe in the ultimate responsibility of parents over their children, but they face huge challenges in keeping their children safe online. It's not simply a matter of denying them a phone or a computer. There are many good uses of tech that children and young people should be free to explore, but the onus is on us as adults to create a positive place for their exploration. Instead, activity that would never be tolerated in the real world has been normalised, monetised and algorithmically amplified to kids detriment.

The Online Safety Act was a step forward, but we better understand now that this is not just what children see, it is how social media works. The success of this policy, however, will depend heavily on its implementation, and it's an announcement that still begs many questions. So I ask the Secretary of State what additional resource is she giving to Ofcom? She is asking the regulator to take on a substantial amount of extra work. Does she expect tech companies to contribute more towards the regulator's Budget, or will the funding come from her own? When can we expect precise definitions of what brings the platform into scope? A list of banned platforms has been briefed today, but it is not clear why some do not make the cut.

Can she guarantee this work will not distract from implementing the final stages of the OS? A. What lessons has she learned from the circumvention of the Australia ban that will make the UK experience and our ban more effective? She talks of more effective age assurances and I agree on the need to reset social norms. Will she be ruling out mandatory digital ID as a requirement for accessing social media? What privacy protections will be in place if children's images are taken as part of face scanning for age verification? Is she considering age verification at App Store level as a means not only of more reliable protection of children, but as a chance to reduce frictions for adults wishing to access social media.

The government has said it's considering overnight curfews and breaks in infinite scrolling for under 18 year olds. How do Ministers Square granting 16 year olds the solemn duty to vote, but not the power to have a cheeky Night-Time scroll on Instagram. The same applies to romantic chat bots. How is this going to work? Will these restrictions apply to 16 year olds or 18 year olds, given both meet the age of sexual consent? On efforts to prevent children from taking or sharing nude imagery? Can she set out the scope of the law she's considering and Cat Eccles categorically rule out client side scanning tools being applied to adults phones.

We're told that the first set of regulations to enable the social media ban could be in effect in spring 27. How confident is the Secretary of State in achieving her timeline? She will understand this policy is not easily implemented. She has made reference to that, and she has detractors, detractors who share the aim but not the means. Fearing a ban pushes children out of supervised accounts and towards riskier services. What does she say to those like Ian Russell, who believe this policy is not only wrong but cynically timed? She suggests it comes down to enforcement of the Isa, which makes my earlier questions more relevant.

And finally, Madam Deputy Speaker, I wish to ask the Secretary of State about her tweet last week on the Updating the Online Safety Act to remove illegal content with greater speed during, I quote, times of crisis. Now the scenes in Belfast rightly appal every decent citizen in our nation. The vicious barbarism of. Had died, just like the despicable murder of Henry Novak has ignited anger and sparked protests that's led to indiscriminate violence against innocent people. Violence and protests can often mix, but nonetheless two very different things laws exist that prohibit incitement, criminalise threats to kill and stop platforms hosting illegal content, and they must rightly be enforced with strength.

Peaceful protests, on the other hand, is a legitimate response to failure, in this case, perceived failure of the political class to adequately deal with concerns that the public has raised time and again via the ballot box. In such circumstances, I appreciate government has a job on its hands to make sure work to stop the spread of illegal content isn't perceived, or does not indeed become an attempt to obscure legitimate political comment. So I ask, what powers are being taken? How will times of crisis be defined, and what assurances can the Minister offer the House that she understands? If government does not get its approach right, any actions she proposes risk stoking the very unrest that her policy is designed to subdue? Madam Deputy Speaker, For too long, we have implicitly decided that childhood and parenting must simply adapt to the darker manifestations of the internet as the reality of modern life.

Giving parents the support they need is not the same as the state stripping them of their ultimate responsibilities. But when harm from social media to our children is real and growing, the time comes for action even when the answers are not perfect. I look forward to working with the Secretary of State in making sure the implementation of her policy is as close to it as it can be.

17:05

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Secretary of State. glad. At the end, she said that they will work with us to make sure that we implement this effectively. that we implement this effectively. I think that's extremely important. I absolutely agree that this is a win for all the parents who have campaigned for this, and especially the bereaved families who had to relive the horror of what's happened time and time again. She made some comments about the Prime Minister. I want to be really, really clear about this.

The reason we are moving so swiftly on this is precisely because the bereaved families have said to us, the longer you leave change, the worse it can be for children. And I have really taken that to heart and moved as quickly as possible here. I think it was right to have the consultation, not just because there are different views, but actually what we've heard is so overwhelming. I think that builds support for the ban and it means that when we implement it, I hope it will it will last.

And I would just say, you know, the Online Safety Act did take eight years from, you know, the initial idea to implementation. And we've got to the fact that we this government has taken powers in the Children's Act means we can implement it in a much quicker. And as I said, I want the vote this year by the end of the year, and I want it coming into force as early as possible. Early, early, first couple of months of 2027. She asked about Ofcom's enforcement and resources and capabilities.

That's why I've asked them to do an urgent review. I would say they should look at their own resources first before coming to Parliament to ask for more. But I will, of course, look at what what they say on that. She asked about the model that we're following. It is the model of we plan to follow the model of Australia and that covers not just excuse me, the companies I named in my statement, but others that's publicly available. She rightly asked about highly effective age assurance measures.

She will know these are already covered in the Online Safety Act for adults. Not all of those are appropriate for children. So we've asked Ofcom to look at this as quickly as possible to come up with what would what would work. I think that's really important. But privacy, as she will know, having, you know, read the Online Safety Act is absolutely at the heart of those measures. And there are really strict requirements about any data that is collected, what it's used for and how it should be deleted.

The AI chatbot measure is for 18 year olds and below, because we think that there are parallels there with issues like pornography. She also asked finally about my my comments on essentially incitement to violence online. That's what I said put out on X last week, which is if you incite violence online, it's the same as offline. And that's not acceptable. And this week in Parliament, we are laying Ofcom's updated code of practice about what to do during crisis moments, which essentially is you've got to take that illegal material down.

I think most people in this country would agree that if you break the law, incite violence, you should face the full consequences of the law, whether it's online or offline. And that's what I support. And let me say this I know normally in the House, this house, there is a lot of theatre about the politics. I understand that that is what this place is like, but I think the vast majority of members in this House do support a ban, and I hope we can all work together because parents, no matter what their politics, want the same thing.

So let's crack on with the job.

17:09

Dame Chi Onwurah MP (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West, Labour)

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Select Committee Chair. >> Select Committee Chair. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And there's so many. >> Parents know, and as the my

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Parents know, and as the my committee's ongoing inquiry into digital childhood has highlighted, British children have been the British children have been the subject of a malign mass experiment designed purely to optimise corporate profits with horrifying, though largely unmeasured harms at an individual and population level. And successive governments have been too ignorant to ideological or two in hock to Big tech to act. And so the Secretary of State is to be congratulated on action. However, my right hon.

Friend knows that a ban is riddled with problems. Workarounds like VPNs, services like generative AI or WhatsApp not included new ones popping up. It does nothing to address the organised acceleration of misinformation which harms our children and whose consequences we saw on the streets of Belfast. So can I urge her once again to revisit my committee's 2025 report and go after the advertising driven business model which incentivised these harms and which is largely unregulated, and also to impose transparency requirements so we understand the challenge we face.

17:10

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Yeah. >> I want to thank my hon. Friend for that. Her question I think I've said in this House before, I will said in this House before, I will again look at the recommendations in that report. My hon. Friend, who is both a in my department and the culture department, is actually chairing a joint task force on advertising to look at, you know, how the online world and what more we can do there. As I said, you know, the Online Safety Act does set out very clear legal duties on providers to remove what's illegal for everyone, what's harmful for children.

But I am looking again at what more can be done, particularly during times of crisis, including boosted trusted sources, making it easier for people to reset their algorithms. And as I said this week, we're laying updates to Parliament to bring into effect Ofcom's strengthened code of practice what happened during crisis time. But I'm sure she will, as always, push us to go further.

17:11

Victoria Collins MP (Harpenden and Berkhamsted, Liberal Democrat)

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Liberal Democrat spokesperson Victoria Collins, thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker. >> On behalf of children and parents across the country, we welcome the government finally taking action to keep children safe online. And I know how important online. And I know how important this has been to Secretary of State herself for almost 18 months, the Liberal Democrats, as the first party to force a vote on the issue, have been pushing for action to raise the digital age of consent, implement doomscrolling caps, health warnings and a film style age rating to ban harmful social media for under 16 seconds.

Today, we welcome that the government has finally caught up with these calls to act and listen to the parents and tireless campaigners who have worked relentlessly and often in difficult circumstances. It is just a shame, however, for the Prime Minister, it doesn't seem it was this cry for help from parents or young people, or the mounting evidence that finally made him act. But after months of dither and delay, what seems to be today is more like a panicked policy cobbled together ahead of a by election and a backbench rebellion.

With that last minute rush, it's a real disappointment. The government hasn't learned from Australia and other countries on how we can do better and deal with the root causes of online harm. Our Liberal Democrat harms based approach would deal with addictive algorithms and features, for example from chatbots, not just the romantic companions or therapy bots that the government have announced. Although we of course look forward to hearing more on this next month. Our approach is supported by more than 40 charities and experts who stand up for children.

Safer Online world there's a clear framework for new platforms and future harms that have already arrived, whereas Australia is playing a game of whack a mole. So what can we do so we can learn to do better? And why hasn't the government learnt from this? Just as the Secretary of State said she would? So how will the government protect children from emerging threats and addictive features elsewhere, and not just prevent young people from signing up? How is the government deciding what platforms are included? What framework differentiates, for example, YouTube from YouTube kids? And will children still be able to access YouTube without an account as they can? Now? What addictive features beyond Infinite Scroll will be tackled, and what assurances are there beyond the strongly beyond being strongly minded to act? We don't mind the Prime Minister borrowing ideas on this.

We just wish he'd borrowed all of them and sooner. And we, of course, continue to work to offer our services to work together. Our approach bans harmful social media for under 16 seconds by default, and sets a new safety standard to make the internet a safer place. Just like standards for films and toys that we've had in online offline world for decades, children are growing up in the attention economy where their focus is being sold. They deserve a government that treats this as a seatbelt moment, not a press release for Makerfield.

Will the Secretary of State use this opportunity to truly hold tech giants to account and back a harms based framework that puts children's safety truly at the heart of this quickly changing technological world.

17:14

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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I've got to admit, I'm not really sure whether she's for or really sure whether she's for or against the ban. So. She's a Lib Dem, say members on the conservative benches. So she asked what model? I did say in my statement that it is the Australian model. We've learnt the lessons, which is why we are having a focus on more highly effective age assurance measures. And to be very, very clear, there has to be rigorous enforcement, including of more risk, more risky sites.

That's what I've talked about, what I want Ofcom to do. And actually we have taken powers in the Children's Act to implement the results of this consultation, which includes restrictions on features and functions. So that will allow us, I think this is one of the really important issues, because you will restrict some features and functions and they will come up with others. But the powers in that act allow us to move more quickly. One of the things that has really struck me is we just can't have it taking eight years, because technology is changing so fast.

So I'm always very happy to to talk to him. Let me just finish with this point about the Prime Minister. He absolutely believed in having this consultation because there are different views. I think it's been a good thing to do because it is clear, it is clear, and this is not a rush. This is a deeply thought through policy programme. I hope she'll rise above party politics and work with us to get it right, but I might be holding my breath.

17:16

Jess Phillips MP (Birmingham Yardley, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. As somebody who was in some of the rooms where this was being discussed, I just want to pay absolute tribute to the Secretary absolute tribute to the Secretary of State, who has fought incredibly hard. And by no means has any of this been rushed for any announcement. She has worked incredibly hard on it. I wonder if she could answer for me. Last week, the government announced that we would be age verifying on the basis of the device and why we wouldn't use that same age verification on device level to ensure age verification in access to social media.

17:17

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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I know my hon. Friend is a huge champion of, and has pushed very hard for many of these measures and hard for many of these measures and many more besides. I think this does link to the device level interventions that we have talked about, but we want this. This ban is going to be for. 16. And I think it's really important that we we give that clear limit. I would also say that I am very, very, very clear here on this on the device proposals that we expect them to act and we will legislate.

We will legislate.

17:17

Rt Hon Damian Hinds MP (East Hampshire, Conservative)

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Damian Hinds thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> Morning's announcement. >> The platforms are not. >> Now off the hook. And, of course, the Online Safety Act operates up the Online Safety Act operates up until the age of 18, and that is the age up until which the Children's Act 1989 requires protection of children to be in place. But I want to ask a very specific question. So this announcement this morning seeks to exempt messaging services, but it seeks to block stranger communication, communication from strangers.

So what is the net effect of those two things? If you have a messaging service that allows anybody who knows your phone number to add you to a large messaging group.

17:18

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Thank you state. that we aren't including things like WhatsApp in this. Parents have been really clear that they want to be able to contact their their be able to contact their their children, but we do want to block strangers. Being able to communicate with children. We will be setting out all the details of this in our regulations. He knows I'll be more than happy to talk to him through the details of all this, but the messaging services aren't covered by the ban.

But if they have features and functions where, as they do that allow strangers to communicate with children, we absolutely want to deal with that and we'll be coming forward with

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further details. Emily Darlington. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Well,

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the Honourable. Secretary of State. And I don't necessarily agree on the effectiveness of a ban where we

17:18

Emily Darlington MP (Milton Keynes Central, Labour)

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the effectiveness of a ban where we do absolutely agree is on companion chatbots. The entire business. >> Model of. >> These companion chatbots is to

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These companion chatbots is to keep us and our children online for as long as possible, using grooming, as long as possible, using grooming, language and grooming behaviour and sometimes sexual circumstances in order to data mine us and more importantly, our children. Can the Secretary of State make it absolutely clear, via the Dispatch Box, that we will not tolerate these types of business models exploiting us and our children?

17:19

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Yeah. >> My hon. Friend is a passionate advocate, and absolutely we're really clear that these so-called romantic companion, sexualised chat bots are wrong for children. We will ban them. We will ban that function in general chat bots. We've seen that on something like X. So it's not just that I think there's further to go on AI chatbots. And I said I will make a further statement into the House in July. On the other measures. I'm more than happy to talk to her about that.

The reason that we have done this, the big announcement today about the ban, is the sooner we make the announcement, the sooner we can lay the regulations, have the vote and bring it into effect. But as I said, there is much more to do, and I'm very happy to talk to her about this further.

17:20

Rt Hon Kit Malthouse MP (North West Hampshire, Conservative)

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Kit Malthouse thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Not before time, but the statement is extremely but the statement is extremely welcome, and I congratulate the Secretary of State for extracting it through what must have been very complicated government machinery. A complicated government machinery. A couple of quick questions, if I may. First of all, just for clarity, because my school WhatsApp groups have lit up, as I'm sure many others have today, could you just confirm that enforcement will all be against the platforms and not against parents? She knows that screens are the source of major source of conflict within the home at the moment.

We don't want to start thermonuclear war in homes up and down the land. So it will be for the companies, not for parents. Second question how is she going to stop the development of similar attributes within gaming environments, which are often, you know, on servers overseas and develop sophisticated ways to overcome these, the barriers that she may put in their way. And then thirdly, is she going to be looking very quickly? Is she going to be looking at the design of content that remains on mainstream entertainment for children, which has moved much more towards the flickering lights mode of of engaging children's attention and may well now blossom and bloom in the absence of social media.

17:21

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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I mean, it's quite cheeky. Three >> I mean, it's quite cheeky. Three questions, but absolutely the enforcement is on the companies, not the parents, not the children. He will know that under the Online Safety Act, we can already have the potential to fine companies up to 10% of their qualifying worldwide revenue, as well as block service availability. If they repeatedly break the law, that's what is already there. We're looking we're obviously finalising our proposals here, but that's where the responsibility lays.

I would say that the what we're trying to do is we've got an overall ban on social media platforms using with a plan to use the Australian model. But we also have the the ability to deal with specific features and functions in other services. If we think they are risky to children. I'm sorry, I forgot the third question, but I will write back to him when my officials tell me.

17:22

Helen Hayes MP (Dulwich and West Norwood, Labour)

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The law. >> Madam Deputy Speaker. >> I thank the Secretary. >> Of State for her statement and warmly welcome the decisive action she has set out today. She has agreed with the Education Select Committee in our evidence based conclusions, that social media harms currently outweigh the benefits for children, that technology companies cannot be trusted to regulate themselves, and that we need to reset completely the relationship our children have with the online world. Our evidence demonstrated that a ban is not enough, and that when young people start using social media, hopefully post 16, it should be free from the most harmful, addictive features.

Can I ask the Secretary of State that the tech sector is constantly innovating and evolving? Can she say whether and how the list of banned applications will be reviewed, so that it keeps pace with the innovation in the tech sector and doesn't become out of date?

17:23

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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She's absolutely right there, which is why I think we're doing which is why I think we're doing what I call Australia Plus plus, because there, there's the, the, the ban on the providers, on the platforms providing their services to children. And then there's additional features and functions. And we now have the power in legislation to do that. I hope that will allow us to keep up. But I do want to say I did read carefully their report, and I was very struck by not only the support for an outright statutory ban, but that you said this is a foundation for action rather than a complete solution.

I strongly agree with this. I don't think this is the whole story, and we will continue to engage with her and members on

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her Select Committee, because we've got to keep pace with change. It is highly unlikely that everybody will get into the debate. There are far too many people bobbing and we have a lot of business to get through. Having said that, if questions were 30s and the answers were 30s as well, we could get the majority of people in Martin Wrigley.

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in Martin Wrigley. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. It sounds like the Secretary of State is hearing a fairly unanimous view from members

17:24

Martin Wrigley MP (Newton Abbot, Liberal Democrat)

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of the Select Committee, which is good. The move is welcome today. This ban is a welcome start, but I think it's only a start and it's not sufficient. Well, does the Secretary of State agree with me and the Select Committee that as well as parents and children taking action, the responsibility must be on the companies as well as the enforcement enforcement. They are providing. The product recommendation engines make them publishers of dangerous and addictive content and not passive platforms, which they would put forward.

And they are doing it for financial gain.

17:25

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Yes, I agree, it's on the platforms and they've got to continue meeting their obligations under the Online Safety Act. As under the Online Safety Act. As well as this ban. They've had chances to make their platforms safe. They haven't. That's why we're saying you can't provide them to children anymore.

17:25

Amanda Hack MP (North West Leicestershire, Labour)

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Amanda Hack. >> Thank you. >> I thank the Secretary of State for her statement. >> And welcome. >> The. >> Decisive action she's taken. As

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Decisive action she's taken. As a parent, I've seen firsthand just how harmful predators stalk gaming sites. I'm glad that these have been included as students in North West Leicestershire complete their GCSEs this week. Can the Secretary of State that who mentioned it in her statement, just provides more content and data about how we will make sure free education resources will continue and how this will be implemented in light of the ban.

17:26

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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And so I think it's really important that two things happen. Firstly, is that there's more Firstly, is that there's more support for parents and for schools to do what many are already doing, which is preparing children for the life online. We've got we've had a big national curriculum review. There's new measures coming in place from this September, but there'll be more when the full curriculum review comes into place. And we're doing a huge amount to support schools to provide wider support for sport, art, culture, school plays.

And I take that cough from Madam Deputy Speaker, but I'll write her more.

17:26

Bradley Thomas MP (Bromsgrove, Conservative)

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Bradley Thomas Madam Deputy Speaker Well, this is a really important topic and a really important announcement about children's health, safety and children's health, safety and wellbeing. And I wish the government well, as it navigates probably some very thorny topics in bringing this into effect. Can the bringing this into effect. Can the Minister give any indication as to what accountability will look like for platforms? Who will be tasked with enforcing this?

17:26

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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I mean, it is more complicated than it seems, but in the end, to than it seems, but in the end, to govern is to choose. There are strong requirements already on companies under the Online Safety companies under the Online Safety Act. As I said, the fines and the potential service blocks are already in that act. We are developing further measures, but that is how we'll hold their feet to the fire.

17:27

Sam Carling MP (North West Cambridgeshire, Labour)

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Thank you. enforceability of a platform based ban, but I welcome the news around infinite scrolling and tackling that it affects people of all ages. that it affects people of all ages. One concern I have is for young LGBT people growing up in often unsupportive environments, and the support they can find from others in similar circumstances online. I know from personal experience how valuable that can be. Does the Secretary of State agree that support like that is important, and continue?

17:27

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Thank you, thank you. thought extremely carefully about going through this. It was one of the real things for me that made me unsure. You know, as we were going through this, young people are still able to go online. I think there will be new resources and new support available in different ways. That doesn't meet the the the model that Australia uses. But I am more than happy to speak in further detail with him and members of the LGBTQ community, because it's really important that people, if they live or love in a different way, are still able to connect, especially if they don't feel able to in their own community.

17:28

Christine Jardine MP (Edinburgh West, Liberal Democrat)

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Christine Jardine you very much. >> Madam Deputy Speaker. >> I know from my mailbox that today's statement will be widely welcomed by parents in Edinburgh welcomed by parents in Edinburgh West who are concerned for the safety of their children and the impact of social media on them, but I wonder if the Secretary of State would also agree that there are societal dangers as well. A lot of children are directed away from neutral sites towards anti-Semitic influences, Holocaust deniers, violent scenes, and that there are wider implications.

It is not just the obvious problem we should be looking at, but the less obvious ones as well.

17:29

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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The hon. Member is absolutely >> The hon. Member is absolutely right, and certainly in England we are looking deeply at the are looking deeply at the curriculum. It's not just that under new RH guidance, children will be taught about social media and AI and deepfakes, but the wider curriculum will review, will look at critical thinking about how do you trust things you see online, where are they coming for? What are the implications, whether that's misogyny or anti-Semitism? I think we we do need to prepare children for that life and future.

We're certainly doing that in England, but I'm more than happy to share with her the evidence of that.

17:29

Feryal Clark MP (Enfield North, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I welcome the Secretary of Can I welcome the Secretary of State's actions to protect children from online harm, especially the harms based approach that she's taking? Madam Deputy Speaker, I've heard evidence from educational digital content creators whose resources are lifeline, a lifeline for young people. Will the Minister commit to look at exemptions to ensure that teens above 13 don't lose access to the long form educational resources? Thank you.

17:30

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Yes, our list of exemptions is precisely so that we do not capture those educational resources. I've those educational resources. I've seen them in my own constituency. The brilliant things that can help young people learn and get on, and actually narrow the disadvantage gap between rich and poor kids. So I really want to make sure they're exempt.

17:30

Rt Hon Sir Jeremy Wright KC MP (Kenilworth and Southam, Conservative)

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Jeremy Wright thank. >> Jeremy Wright thank. >> You very much, Madam. >> Deputy Speaker. There's a great deal to welcome in what the Secretary of State has said, that Secretary of State has said, that she will know the detail really matters. So can I ask her two points of detail arising from her letter to Ofcom published today? The first is she talks about launching a rapid assessment of what highly effective age assurance looks like for determining whether someone is over 16. Can I ask her why that work is being commissioned after the announcement has been made and not before it? Given the integral importance of age assurance to her policy, isn't it important for the government to know it can be delivered effectively? And secondly, in relation to the child safety duties under the Online Safety Act, will she confirm that what will likely happen now is that a children's access assessment will demonstrate that for those platforms with highly effective age assurance in place, they will not now need to go on and carry out a children's risk assessment in relation to anyone under the age of 16.

17:31

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Just a moment. Secretary of State, I can understand how important this debate is, but important this debate is, but members can ask one question that fundamentally lasts. Under 30s

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Secretary of State. We've asked for this rapid review of highly effective age assurance measures so that it can come in well before the regulations are laid, and they are voted on in the House so that people can look at those questions and absolutely make sure that they're going to work. And I will write to him about the other question, because I don't want to get into any more trouble.

17:32

Ms Abena Oppong-Asare MP (Erith and Thamesmead, Labour)

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Having ORE. >> Having ORE. >> Thank you. >> Madam Deputy Speaker. >> I want to thank the Secretary of State and her team for the work on State and her team for the work on this. I want to better understand how the government will look at social media companies to make sure there is transparency on the algorithms they are using to ensure that they're not continuing to target children.

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Yeah. I think this has been a really important question and something important question and something that researchers have raised about being able to assess the impact and being able to assess the impact and know what the social media companies actually know themselves so that they can better scrutinise

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so that they can better scrutinise and assess the evidence. And I hope we will be doing more on this soon. Brendan O'Hara Madam Deputy

17:32

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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>> Brendan O'Hara Madam Deputy Speaker. The SNP welcomes today's statement in addressing what is a clear and growing threat to our children's wellbeing. The devil, of course, will be in the detail, but we will work constructively and positively to make sure that there are meaningful and effective platforms such as Roblox, where games are user generated with a games are user generated with a chat functionality and therefore pose a risk to children being exposed to inappropriate content exposed to inappropriate content online predators and scammers.

How will the government tackle those sort of gaming platforms, which are sort of gaming platforms, which are in reality, just another form of social media?

17:33

Brendan O'Hara MP (Argyll, Bute and South Lochaber, Scottish National Party)

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As I think I said earlier, we have this ability within the Children's Act now to restrict certain features and functions. That's why we've looked

17:33

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Are able to say for those under 16, we will restrict, you know. We will ban live streaming and stranger communication. And that we would also have that turned off by default for 16 and 17 year olds, because we don't want to include all of gaming under a blanket ban. No we don't. But if there are particular functions that we think children, as we know stranger communication does on gaming, then we will act.

17:33

Josh Dean MP (Hertford and Stortford, Labour)

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Josh Dean very much. >> Madam Deputy Speaker. A decade ago, I marched with other young people to Parliament Square, calling for votes at 16 to be introduced after the Brexit introduced after the Brexit referendum. And I'm proud that this Labour government is doing that. But how will we ensure that young people are well informed when they go to cast their first ballot, given that they are digital natives and get a lot of their information online?

17:34

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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So what I would say is this firstly, this is young people can firstly, this is young people can still go online. I actually think that for all sorts of news organisations, BBC, Sky, all sorts of different ones, this will actually be support them doing even more to provide that news information, perhaps created by children for children in an appropriate and effective manner. And my right hon. Friend the member the Minister for culture, who's also within my Department, is specifically looking at this issue.

I would just say, you know, it's not only a five second TikTok reel that can teach you about news. You know, there'll be other ways of doing it, and we want to support them.

17:34

Rebecca Paul MP (Reigate, Conservative)

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Rebecca Paul thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Firstly, I just want to say that I really welcome this restriction on social media this restriction on social media for children. As a mother, I am grateful for it, and I'm grateful to everyone across the house who to everyone across the house who has pushed for this. And as already alluded to clearly, there will be practical issues and difficulties with implementing, and I think we all need to work together in order to address that. But one of the things I would quite like to understand from the Secretary of State is what consideration has been given to enforcing through the device, as opposed to age verification on the social media providers.

17:35

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Well, this is a we as she knows, >> Well, this is a we as she knows, the Prime Minister has already said that we want to act on devices to stop children taking, viewing or stop children taking, viewing or sharing nude images. What we're talking about today is on the social media platforms that we need to have those highly effective age verification measures. I think sometimes when we debate this in the House is, you know, it's either or. I think we need to take action on all these fronts.

We need to keep the implementation of the Online Safety Act. We need to tackle devices to stop kids taking and sharing and seeing nude pictures. And we need to put these restrictions on AI chatbots and

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social media platforms, because safe. McKinnon. Speaker, and I want to

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McKinnon. Speaker, and I want to thank the Secretary of State for. Her statement today and. The leadership that she has shown on this issue. A mother stopped me as I boarded the train today. She was beaming and she just today. She was beaming and she just said, thank you so much. This is going to make such a difference to my 13 year old boy's life. And I

17:36

Catherine McKinnell MP (Newcastle upon Tyne North, Labour)

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my 13 year old boy's life. And I think there are many parents that will sleep a lot easier tonight knowing that the help is coming. And does she agree with me that this is not the end of children's life online? That will still exist, but this is a huge shift of power away from tech companies, back towards children and their families

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to make sure that that life can be productive and constructive and include being outside and with their friends as well. Yeah.

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Yeah. I agree. With every single word she says.

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With every single word she says. This is about actually liberating children from what's can sometimes be a terribly oppressive life be a terribly oppressive life online, and it's about helping parents do what they want. They have faced a tidal wave of stuff that they've been trying to fight

17:37

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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that they've been trying to fight off, and we're just saying, we want to back you to do what's right for kids. And I really personally want to thank my hon. Friend for her, for her support. Munira Wilson.

17:37

Munira Wilson MP (Twickenham, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I wondered if the Secretary of State could clarify, as she modelled her social media as she modelled her social media ban on Australia. Their definition of a ban includes companies taking of a ban includes companies taking reasonable steps to prevent under 16 seconds, having accounts with age restricted social media age restricted social media platforms. She will be aware that platforms such as YouTube and Reddit, you don't need an account to access very harmful material. Could she clarify? Is she banning children from accessing accounts or those websites altogether?

17:37

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Thank you state. bring in highly effective age verification measures because we want to make sure we learn the lessons from what has happened in Australia. My hon. Friend the Minister for Online Safety went to Minister for Online Safety went to learn all of these lessons. I think there's much more that we will be saying as we draft those regulations and we take this forward. But my view is that is one of the big lessons. But I would also I just want to be honest about this.

Kids will get around it. Kids have always got around smoking, drinking. That's what kids we've all done it, you know, maybe not.

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That is what they that do. She's. Ian Lavery. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I've had the absolute privilege of consulting with the young people in my constituency. Every secondary school Bedlington, Ashington and Blythe. There wasn't any one of Blythe. There wasn't any one of them believed that an outright ban was the appropriate action to take.

17:38

Ian Lavery MP (Blyth and Ashington, Labour)

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was the appropriate action to take. All had issues and negative issues with social media, but they all said that the social media companies and tech companies should be taking more responsibility, and this should be more accountable for what's being seen on these social media platforms. Can my right hon. Friend say what and what avenues has been for young people to feed into this consultation? And can she give me a guarantee so I can tell these young people that have had my discussions with that their voices, these are the ones that's being impacted if being listened to.

17:39

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Well, we had a specific a survey >> Well, we had a specific a survey and consultation with children, 14000 of whom replied, I myself personally met with young people in many hon. Members constituency and I would I would just say this I would I would just say this people. I understand why people say put the put it onto the companies. They've got to keep their products safe. And if they don't keep them safe, they shouldn't be able to provide them to children and young people.

Well, they haven't kept them safe, so they're no longer going to be able to provide them to children and young people. And I would also say this, I think I know that in response to the consultation, many of the children didn't want an outright ban, but two thirds wanted a whole load of different restrictions. And in the end, it's for adults and the government to decide what is best. Their views have been heard. But we think that this is too risky and we want to have a reset for them and future generations.

17:40

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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Lewes. >> Secretary of State's finest hour, and I'm only slightly disappointed that for reasons of his own, the that for reasons of his own, the Prime Minister chose to upstage it in Downing Street. Can she tell the in Downing Street. Can she tell the House what she thinks the main reasons are in Australia for. Admittedly, according to AI reports that as many as 61% of young people are indeed getting around the restrictions. And will she be working jointly with them to try

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and get this down to a more acceptable level? Thank you. Right. First of all, kids are savvy. They're going to it's been savvy. They're going to it's been an integral part of their life and they want to get around it. But just because I'm going to be just because I'm going to be careful what I say this time. Children try and get around things. Doesn't mean to say we don't have rules and boundaries. Firstly. And rules and boundaries. Firstly. And secondly, we are trying to learn the lessons from Australia because they didn't.

They don't have the highly effective age verification

17:41

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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highly effective age verification measures we have here. We want to put those in place, but I'm not going to claim that even that will mean no kids are on on those social media platforms. We've got to take you've got to take a decision, draw a line in the sand and do this as much for about the eight and nine and ten year olds so that we reset their expectations. You won't be going on this till you're 16.

17:41

Florence Eshalomi MP (Vauxhall and Camberwell Green, Labour )

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Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam. Secretary of State this afternoon, and I think it's right that we do highlight the really difficult dangers exposed to our children. And I think this isn't about saying And I think this isn't about saying that social media is unsafe. I challenge any parent in here and parent or carer who doesn't know parent or carer who doesn't know the lyrics for Cocomelon on YouTube. You know, it has its place. It works for some people. But equally, I wanted to raise with the Secretary of State the dangers of collecting childrens personal data and and the expose and threats to leaks and hacks.

And I will declare that my email was hacked. My staffer's email was hacked recently. This is a live threat. All that personal information in the wrong hands could pose a lot of problems. Is this something that they'll be plan?

17:42

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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So I said in my statement, I'm going to come back and make a further statement to the House in July, and that will include issues July, and that will include issues like raising the digital age of consent. So we have greater consent. So we have greater protections about the use of young children's data. I think that is a really, really important issue. Privacy has to absolutely be at the heart of this because many, many parents and young people themselves are worried. So we've got further things to say in July, and I'm more than happy to discuss that issue with my hon.

Friend Danny Chambers.

17:43

Dr Danny Chambers MP (Winchester, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Certainly, parents and Winchester are going to welcome the government taking action on this, and we welcome the Minister clarifying that it will be tech companies that will be responsible for enforcing will be responsible for enforcing this, and it won't be parents that are the onus will be put on the parents. But just to push the parents. But just to push the Minister on AI chatbots, again, specifically, it's it's excellent that we're removing access to chatbots that allows sexual relations and sexual content.

But there's so much other misinformation and bad health information being given by chatbots. And that includes people of eating disorders being advised to get weight loss drugs and misogynistic attitudes not being challenged. please?

17:43

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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So I'm going to come back in July and say more about this. I don't chat bots telling kids not to don't chat bots telling kids not to eat and all his dreadful stuff is wrong. But if there are mechanisms wrong. But if there are mechanisms for helping support therapy that could get my Camhs waiting lists down in Leicester, I would be very, very. So we need to look at very. So we need to look at properly, properly regulated proper therapy sites will be. Could be good, but I'll come back and say more about that.

I want to get rid of the bad ones, protect the good ones. But that is a little bit more complicated. So we need to take a bit more time.

17:44

Sadik Al-Hassan MP (North Somerset, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The message from over 1200 North The message from over 1200 North Somerset parents like myself, children and families could not be clearer. I. They wholeheartedly clearer. I. They wholeheartedly welcome the direction of travel today. But spring 2027 feels too long to wait. Every day that passes long to wait. Every day that passes is another day in which children are exposed to harmful algorithms, addictive features, inappropriate advertising, and contact from strangers online. So I ask my right hon.

Friend, what are the barriers to an implementation date that could be sooner date?

17:45

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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You know, there's a process we normally go through when you lay regulations, that there's a certain amount of time for parliamentary amount of time for parliamentary scrutiny. And I'm trying to balance giving members a say and looking at these and making sure we got them these and making sure we got them right and they're going to work with with cracking on as quickly as possible. I would still say early 2027 compared to the time it normally takes for a whole bill to go through. Parliament is much quicker.

But I take his, you know, determination to push this forward and I will do do what I can to get possible.

17:45

Adrian Ramsay MP (Waveney Valley, Green Party)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I very much agree with the I very much agree with the Secretary of State about the gravity of the risks and the need for urgent action to protect young for urgent action to protect young people's wellbeing online. It's often the most vulnerable young people who are most likely to be people who are most likely to be exploited online, but it's also often the most vulnerable young people who use online channels for seeking support for their vulnerabilities. Can she assure the House that action will be taken to support the most vulnerable young people? And does she agree that addressing the hollowing out of social services is a crucial part of that?

17:46

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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So this is another thing I was really concerned about alongside, you know, supporting young people who might like things or live or love in a different way. How do they actually connect with people? they actually connect with people? And this trusted support is, is really important. The DCMs is working hard to boost things like working hard to boost things like mentoring and support services. They've just announced £10 million for a new youth opportunity programme with the King's Trust and Sir Gareth Southgate.

There's more we can do there, but I'm more than happy to talk to him about his ideas because we've got to make sure people can get trusted advice easily. But on balance, I feel the risks of social media of exploiting vulnerabilities outweigh the potential benefits. Let's try and find a way through.

17:46

Rushanara Ali MP (Bethnal Green and Stepney, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam. welcome my right hon. Friend's announcement. She's worked tirelessly on this issue. Can I tirelessly on this issue. Can I draw her attention to over 18/16 year olds who are vulnerable and being targeted by organised being targeted by organised criminals, by predatory behaviour, predators, sexual predators? And can she also look at and also extremist far right and religious extremists who radicalise them online? Can she also set out how she'll work with other departments on ensuring that vulnerable young adults are protected? Alongside this very important announcement she's made today.

17:47

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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She's right that what I've announced today isn't a silver bullet for all these challenges. I'm setting out what we can specifically do on the online world. But the truth is, we've got to But the truth is, we've got to provide that wider support. And I'm, as always, very happy to talk to her about her ideas about across government, what more we can do to protect those vulnerable children and young people and deal with the issues she raises.

17:47

Monica Harding MP (Esher and Walton, Liberal Democrat)

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Monica Harding. that the. >> Thousands of parents like me of the frontier generation, those children that were born after 2004 children that were born after 2004 at the advent of Facebook, will be welcoming it too. But as the Secretary has said, children get Secretary has said, children get around bans and there are also vulnerable children that are over 16 that will be vulnerable to this. So what will the government do to introduce legally enforceable safety by design duties on the tech companies to ensure that all kids, even those that slip through the net, are safe?

17:48

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Hear, hear. enforce the Online Safety Act or do a ban. There are clear requirements on tech companies to remove illegal on tech companies to remove illegal content for everybody and harmful content for children. They. We will continue to enforce that. And I continue to enforce that. And I would just say, you know, just because we know children will try and get around, it doesn't mean we shouldn't put these measures in place. There's more we can do on enforcement. It is for the tech companies to keep those children safe.

They have had ample opportunity to do so. And now we're saying you can no longer provide your services to children.

17:49

Rachel Taylor MP (North Warwickshire and Bedworth, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Warwickshire and Bedworth have told me overwhelmingly my survey that they feel powerless to protect their children from the harms of their children from the harms of social media, telling them they're not pretty enough, thin enough, cool enough, good enough at their cool enough, good enough at their favourite sport, or worse still, sharing pictures without their consent or pushing suicide. Now is the moment we say enough is enough to put children's health and happiness first, but we know that a ban alone will not be enough.

Does the Minister agree with me that the cliff edge at 16 must be avoided? And kids who do get around the rules, protected by compelling Big tech to take action to protect everyone, rather than continuing to profit from the Doomscrolling division, hatred and despair.

17:49

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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I absolutely agree that this >> I absolutely agree that this isn't a one and done that. There's more that we've got to do that the more that we've got to do that the tech companies need to abide by our law in our land. On the Online Safety Act, she is a powerful champion for her constituents. I want to avoid that cliff edge. I want to take further action on

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restricting features and functions. And as I say, there's more to come in July. Ben Lake.

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Ben Lake. Can I thank the Secretary of. State for the statement and the efforts to protect children and young people from the harms of young people from the harms of social media, and I also welcome her sentiment that social media platforms themselves have more to platforms themselves have more to do and more great responsibility to keep our children safe. Can I just ask, with that in mind, will there

17:50

Ben Lake MP (Ceredigion Preseli, Plaid Cymru)

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ask, with that in mind, will there be greater consequences for those platforms who, for whatever reason, still allow and provide services to

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children online? Yes. As I said in the Online Safety Act, we already have powers Safety Act, we already have powers to find companies up to 10% of their qualifying worldwide revenue. And for companies that repeatedly And for companies that repeatedly refuse to obey the law, Ofcom can apply to the courts to block their services. We haven't finalised the

17:50

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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services. We haven't finalised the fines and consequences, but that shows you the direction of travel Chris Bloore. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Hundreds of parents and young people in Redditch contacted me regarding the government's consultation. Many of them were welcomed. Today's announcement as a critical step to protect our children and end the unfettered social media experiment on our children. The Secretary of State knows this won't be a silver bullet in keeping our children safe online, and I know she will do this anyway.

But can I implore her to keep up the pressure and the negligent tech giants that have acted with such impunity throughout this process.

17:51

Chris Bloore MP (Redditch, Labour)

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For the good people of Redditch in the rest of the country. Yes, I will.

17:51

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Jim Allister. >> Thank you. I greatly welcome this ban and the fact that it will apply across the United Kingdom. But could I ask the Secretary of But could I ask the Secretary of State, is she satisfied that there are no cross-border loopholes such as children in Northern Ireland could exploit with the Irish Republic in that? Are there any Republic in that? Are there any virtual private networks that could be used to allow children to still sign on?

17:51

Jim Allister KC MP (North Antrim, Traditional Unionist Voice)

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So we will come back to the issue of VPNs in in July. I've commissioned further research about their usage. You know, there's a there's really important issues to balance here. Many people want to use them for privacy issues. And I think that's important. But we also know that some children use them to get around this. But I'm coming get around this. But I'm coming back to this in in about our response to the consultation on this in July. this in July.

17:52

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Greg Smith thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I welcome the statement regarding safety of our children online, and I've been grateful to the young people of Bolton South and Walkden who shared their views with me. But children should not obviously be an afterthought in the implementation. So can I ask the Secretary of State to confirm that their voices are genuinely shaped today's decision and assure us that the House that and assure us that the House that these measures, when they're being implemented, children remain front and centre at the architects of and centre at the architects of their own online world.

17:52

Yasmin Qureshi MP (Bolton South and Walkden, Labour)

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Secretary.

17:53

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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So I really understand that this will be extremely difficult for many children who are on social media today. I know that it will cause a lot of worry and disquiet, and I want to make sure their views and voices continue to be heard. I would say that I was quite struck from the results of our survey about just how many children want risky features, restricted two thirds of those, you know, all sorts of more than half want restrictions on infinite scroll.

Almost two thirds on explicit image sharing, location sharing, almost half on live streaming. So I think children do want to see change. I think it will be hard for them to manage this transition, but that is what we need to do to build a

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better future. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I welcome the Secretary of

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I welcome the Secretary of State's. Realism that. The. Bands announced today won't be

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Bands announced today won't be 100% perfect. So can she tell me what proportion of under 16 seconds does the government expect will be

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does the government expect will be prevented from accessing social media? We haven't set any targets or

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We haven't set any targets or goals for that. I do think having more highly effective age verification measures will make a difference. But as I said, I just want to be honest about this, that this is about today's children, but it's even more, I think about, you know, children who are growing up now that we reset those expectations and cultural norms so that kids know you won't be online until you're 16. Chris Webb Mr Speaker. by the inspirational Paul Wright, who's been here today in the gallery with bereaved parents, will welcome today's news.

So thank you, Secretary of State, can you outline what lessons this government has learned from countries such as Australia regarding the effectiveness of this approach, and how will it ensure that any measures, whether restrictions, measures, whether restrictions, regulation or education, effectively reduce exposure to harm? effectively reduce exposure to harm? And will she consider banning VPNs for under 16 seconds? Well. for under 16 seconds? Well.

17:55

Chris Webb MP (Blackpool South, Labour)

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So as our. I'm glad that his constituents, he believes, will support this. We have. My hon. Friend the member the Minister for Online Safety spent a week in

17:55

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Australia learning the lessons, including about how kids are getting around the ban. That is why we've already said we want more highly effective age assurance measures. I'll come back to the measures. I'll come back to the issue of VPNs and young people in in July, but I am sure there is he and others. And I think it's really important that we continue this discussion. We want it to be as effective as possible, but we also effective as possible, but we also need to help parents with younger children just begin to shift those social norms, because what happens is parents, just the kids really want it.

All their friends are on it. So even if you set your boundaries and your rules, you're under constant pressure there. We're just saying we're on your

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side. We're going to help you do the right thing for your kids. Mohammed. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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And I want to say. A massive thank. You to the Secretary of State for myself and on behalf of the for myself and on behalf of the parents in Dewsbury and Batley. But we've also argued in this place that the root problem lies in the illegal content, the harmful illegal content, the harmful content, and the deliberately addictive design of these platforms,

17:56

Iqbal Mohamed MP (Dewsbury and Batley, Independent)

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which impact not just children, but adults alike. So what will the government do to introduce and enforce regulation, to ensure that the platforms and the services and

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the features that they provide are safe for all? Thank you.

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Thank you. I think this is a wake up call for the companies. You had your chance. You didn't fulfil your existing obligations under the law enough. I think that is really enough. I think that is really important for us to say. And you

17:57

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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know, they will remain responsible for fulfilling their obligations under the British laws to remove illegal content and remove harmful content for children. I think that is hugely important. We mean, we stood up to grok an X, an Elon Musk, and said is nothing isn't enough.

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And we're drawing a line in the sand. Now to Marsha de Cordova. Thank you, Madam.

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Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker. I want to thank the Secretary of State and this government for the decisive action government for the decisive action they are taking in introducing a ban for social media for under 16 seconds. I know that many teachers, seconds. I know that many teachers, parents and carers in Battersea also welcome this at a recent roundtable that I chaired with

17:57

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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roundtable that I chaired with young people, one shared that he was on his phone for 14 hours in one single day, which highlights just how serious this problem is. So will the Secretary of State commit to working across government to look at some of the eye health impacts that excessive screen time use is having on our young people? And, where necessary, commit to carrying out research on this important issue.

17:58

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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I am really glad my hon. Friend raised this issue. It was actually an important point in the response from the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges, precisely about the sort Colleges, precisely about the sort of the physical health implications, as well as the mental health implications for for young people. implications for for young people. She will know that we've already published published guidance on screen time use for under-fives. We're currently reviewing it for 5 to 16 seconds, but I listened carefully to that medical evidence, and that's one of the reasons why we're taking this action.

But of do.

17:58

Tessa Munt MP (Wells and Mendip Hills, Liberal Democrat)

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Tessa Munt thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank the Secretary of State for her for her statement. It's brilliant. Can I statement. It's brilliant. Can I raise concerns about the historic data held by social media companies? And has she thought about what And has she thought about what powers she and parents and carers might hold to invoke something like the right to be forgotten, so that the children's records and data footprint is destroyed, if that's what's wanted, and the social media companies memories are wiped.

And if they don't comply, the real penalty is enforced.

17:59

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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That's not part of the announcement that I've made today. announcement that I've made today. I'm always willing to look at people's arguments about different issues. Actually, on a separate issue, you know, we actually have now taken action to actually try now taken action to actually try and preserve some of the data. Data preservation, nervous notices for parents who've lost their children because they want to see what they've been looking at online. So I think we would have to tread carefully on this.

17:59

Rt Hon Anneliese Dodds MP (Oxford East, Labour )

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Please don't. they wanted a ban. Only seven were against. I'm delighted the government has listened to them. government has listened to them. Now, of course, parents also said in the consultation they wanted action on recommender algorithms, algorithms which as we know, are increasingly radicalising many adults, given the increasing amounts of extremist content they are seeing. So can I ask her, please, will she be coming back in July with measures to ensure transparency and user control on recommender algorithms? OK.

18:00

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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I just want to be clear with my thank you for question. Sorry, I'm trying to be short. She's trying to be short. She's campaigned tirelessly on this. The the model in Australia. We plan to the model in Australia. We plan to use captures user to user platforms whose sole or significant purpose is to enable social social interaction, which also allow users to post material alongside algorithms and those recommender actions. So part of the model and the plan that we plan to follow is precisely about saying children can't access social media platforms defined in that way.

I think that is a big step forward. I know she'd like us to look at this further. I'm always open to discussion because, as I said, I'm very aware of, of, of all these other issues. And we want to take action where we can.

18:01

Tom Gordon MP (Harrogate and Knaresborough, Liberal Democrat)

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Madam Deputy Speaker the UK. >> Madam Deputy Speaker the UK. >> Is home to world leading and award winning game studios. Now. Some games rely on multiplayer Some games rely on multiplayer communication as a core part of their design. So I wondered if the Secretary of State might be able to elaborate on what she. When she was elaborate on what she. When she was talking about banning features and functions of particular things, and whether or not the government have conducted any impact assessments on

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UK game studios and the impact it may have on them. We have a brilliant, fantastic

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We have a brilliant, fantastic world leading gaming industry in this country. That's why we are not including games under the blanket including games under the blanket ban. But I have been really concerned, not just from issues raised by hon. Members, but the raised by hon. Members, but the police and others, that strangers communicating with, not playing with, but directly communicating

18:01

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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with, but directly communicating and messaging children, then taking them on to WhatsApp and grooming them is a real and substantial risk. That is why we are narrowly focusing on that issue.

18:01

Ms Julie Minns MP (Carlisle, Labour)

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Julie Minns. internet safety assembly. Now, thanks to their headteachers, regular internet safety assemblies, Saint Peter's children are well versed in the subject. Does the Secretary of State agree that today's announcement will support the work of many schools and the work of many schools and teachers, and send a clear message to Big Tech that they must now match that commitment?

18:02

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Absolutely. I think I've been very clear throughout this statement that the responsibility here is on the social media platforms. It's not about on on parents or children. It's about them to take the action they need.

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them to take the action they need. Helen Maguire Madam Deputy Speaker. Parents are doing all they can to keep their children safe can to keep their children safe online and taking the initiative to achieve this. In Epsom and Ewell, I attended a phone free childhood event at Saint Martin's School in Youghal, where there are over 150,000 people over the country had signed the pact, which was not giving the children a phone before the age of 14. So I welcome the announcement today.

It's a step forward, but we need to ensure it's forward, but we need to ensure it's enforced so when the ban is in place, what real enforcement ability will Ofcom have to ensure that social media giants are held that social media giants are held to account to safeguard our children?

18:02

Helen Maguire MP (Epsom and Ewell, Liberal Democrat)

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She's right to raise the issue of enforcement. That's why I've specifically asked the new incoming chair of Ofcom to do an urgent review of their capabilities, and also to make sure that they focus on rigorously on enforcement, including on riskier sites in case children go off the main platforms further underground. And thirdly, to make sure they publish a clear to make sure they publish a clear strategy and a proper report to Parliament on how that enforcement is going. Because I know in the end, is going.

Because I know in the end, eating.

18:03

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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I thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to thank the young people in my constituency for Art Academy. Oasis, Academy, arena, Oasis, Shirley Park for meeting with me to share their views on how to keep them safe online. They were clear that they wanted action against the harmful aspects of social media,

18:03

Natasha Irons MP (Croydon East, Labour)

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but wanted to protect the good bits. So can the Secretary of State outline what work is being done across government to ensure that across government to ensure that young people continue to have access to safe opportunities to connect, both online and in their communities? And does she agree communities? And does she agree with me that it is time to give proper statutory protection to youth services, to ensure all young people have somewhere safe to go, people have somewhere safe to go, something meaningful to do? I think.

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something meaningful to do? I think. She's absolutely right. I think we've made great strides with our £500 million in our Youth Matters National Youth strategy, you know, making sure we rejuvenate our youth

18:04

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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services and give more access to sport and the arts. The Department for Education has got a new enrichment framework which will help schools and colleges. It's going to be backed by a £22 million going to be backed by a £22 million enrichment programme. That will be details soon to help 400 schools in England to create excellent offer enrichment and DCMS is also investing £130 million additional support in activities like arts and culture, sport and physical

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activities, adventure and life skills and much more besides. Ayoub Khan. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. There'll be many families and parents which are relieved with the announcement today of the ban for those under the age of 16. But those under the age of 16. But there will also be parents which will be frightened to a degree because of repercussions from because of repercussions from children that have addictions. The Secretary of State has stated that children will be given the support.

18:05

Ayoub Khan MP (Birmingham Perry Barr, Independent)

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children will be given the support. Will parents be given some support as well? >> Yeah, absolutely. I've already we've obviously already, as a department, published new help and guidance for parents about how to talk to children about their life online. That's different at different ages because it is difficult sometimes to talk to them about it. I think that the ban will actually support parents in doing the right thing. But I also I do deeply recognise that for many deeply recognise that for many children and young people, this is going to be a big change.

Of course, we want to do everything we can to support them through this.

18:05

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Miss Cadbury. the large group of 16 to 18 year olds from my constituency schools in my constituency, that I discussed a potential bandwidth. There was no consensus about whether or not there should be a

18:05

Ruth Cadbury MP (Brentford and Isleworth, Labour)

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ban, but there was strong consensus that they needed to see good quality information and education to provide harm. So will the measures that the Minister mentioned use the best knowledge on behaviour. Science that we have? Will the Advice and Information Centre state.

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Centre state. We do want to provide the very best advice and support based on the evidence through for parents, but also through schools.

18:06

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Helen Morgan thank you. the Secretary of State's statement, particularly the bit about communication with strangers and chatbots, and I'm sure the parents of South Devon will join me in that. However, we know that from Australia an outright ban doesn't give the incentive to the big tech

18:06

Caroline Voaden MP (South Devon, Liberal Democrat)

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companies to redesign their platforms to make them less addictive, misogynistic and full of addictive, misogynistic and full of toxic, divisive misinformation. So how will the government continue to pressurise and incentivise the tech pressurise and incentivise the tech companies to make these changes? Because, as she says, there will always be children who circumvent the ban and there will be vulnerable adults and older adults who are also victims of such misinformation.

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misinformation. The Online Safety Act requirements remain. It is not either or. They've got to make sure they remove illegal content for everybody, remove harmful content for children. And as I've you know, I have personally made a whole series of issues of priority offence under the Online Safety Act, whether that is self-harm or suicide and all manner of other issues. So they have to not just take this stuff down, but actively look for it and those requirements look for it and those requirements will remain.

18:07

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Sureena Brackenridge. This is the right decision. Consulted in the right way. Tech companies have had more than enough time, but have chosen to engineer for addiction and profit. Will she work across government to ensure that parents and schools have the support that they need during the support that they need during the transition, and alongside investment in the arts, music, drama, creative subjects and youth services. So children can be children?

18:08

Sureena Brackenridge MP (Wolverhampton North East, Labour)

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Yes, I've had detailed conversations with the Culture Secretary and the Education Secretary about all these issues. There's much more to do, but we are determined to give those children the very best start in life and give them the freedom to be children again.

18:08

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Robin Swann you very much. behalf of all their parents, can I thank and congratulate the Secretary of State and bring them forward this legislation today? She's already said a number of times about children will find a workaround. Big tech will always be always and will be looking for a workaround as well to the legislation and the rules that have been brought forward. Can the Secretary of State give the reassurance that the government reassurance that the government will remain agile and also fund those organisations that will make sure that this dangerous online sure that this dangerous online activity doesn't doesn't flare up?

18:08

Robin Swann MP (South Antrim, Ulster Unionist Party)

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I think he raises. I thank him for his comments. You know, there are people who say there's obviously overwhelming support amongst parents and teachers and police and others for an outright ban. Then there are those who say, but you need to restrict these, the

18:09

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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features and functions. And what I am saying this in this ban is if am saying this in this ban is if you only did features and functions, the truth is the tech companies would come up with another feature and another function and another and another function and another one and another one and another one. And so what we're saying is no line in the sand, no one under 16 on in the sand, no one under 16 on these. But if there are specific features and functions that go beyond social media, like in gaming beyond social media, like in gaming or in other sites, we want to restrict those to, I hope these new powers we've got in the Children's Act allow us to be more agile.

But if they don't, I will always look again because we've got to keep up with how technology is changing.

18:09

Rosie Wrighting MP (Kettering, Labour)

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Rosie Wrighting thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I want to thank the Secretary of State and the the Secretary of State and the Minister for Online Safety for their engagement and conversations with this. I had social media before I was 16, and I deeply understand the concerns and have experienced the bad. But I also know the value, particularly for know the value, particularly for working class kids, of being able to see a world outside of your own. The value for the boy who's growing up without a father and learns to shave by YouTube.

For the young person who teaches themselves to code, to shaping their career for the LGBT community. So how is her department working directly with DfE and DCMS to make sure we identify these areas of need? State.

18:10

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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As I said in response to an earlier question, this was the issue that I wanted to grapple with issue that I wanted to grapple with the most, because I think people want to find people who love in the want to find people who love in the same way, who like the same things. If they feel like they're worried about doing that, where they live with their friends. I think this is with their friends. I think this is hugely important. I think there is potential for a life online to still enable those things to happen, but just not on those social media platforms.

I want to continue working with the hon. Member who I, I have the greatest respect for and with the Department for Education to make sure the chances that social media offered to some. You know, that we have those chances still in place for people who want to experience different things and believe in different things, because we want to give everybody

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the freedom to express who they are. Cat Eccles thank you, Madam

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Cat Eccles thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. In February 2023, Leo Johnson from Stourbridge died by suicide at the age of 19. His by suicide at the age of 19. His mother, Jane, remembers him as excited and energetic to start his excited and energetic to start his life, and his passion for scuba diving fuelled his decision to study oceanography at Plymouth

18:11

Cat Eccles MP (Stourbridge, Labour)

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study oceanography at Plymouth University. He increasingly became absorbed in his phone and social media and told his friends that that was affecting his mental health and not through dangerous content, but through that drip, drip, drip of of comparison culture, leaving him feeling inadequate, anxious and numb. Does she agree that a ban is the right thing to do? So if you or young people like Leo are harmed.

18:12

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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I am so sorry to hear about what >> I am so sorry to hear about what happened to Leo and what she describes. I've heard so many times during the course of this during the course of this consultation, and in fact, many in the representations we had from the the representations we had from the different Royal Colleges for psychiatry, paediatricians and GPS and others precisely raised the issues she talks about. That is one of the reasons why I think this ban is so important to protect children from those really serious harms, which actually, you know, two thirds of GPS and two thirds of hospital clinicians now say they are seeing something that they relate, they think is as a direct consequence of social media every single week.

And I think that is a wake up call to us all. But, Rowan.

18:12

Jim McMahon MP (Oldham West, Chadderton and Royton, Labour )

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Thank you, Madam Speaker. I welcome the ban on social media from the 16th. I wish we weren't here, but it does represent a failure on behalf of the social media platforms to get their own house in order, and it was house in order, and it was inevitable that we would get here in the end. But does she agree that we need to make social media safe we need to make social media safe for everyone? influence. It includes accountability for its owners so that when 17, 18 and into adulthood that they are safe along with the rest of us.

18:13

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Yes. I mean, there are already requirements under the Online Safety Act for companies to remove Safety Act for companies to remove illegal content which actually deal with this issue of foreign interference, particularly during interference, particularly during elections. But as I said, I'm I'm looking again, at some of the recommendations that the Science and Technology Select Committee put forward on this because of the concerns. Exactly as the as the hon. Gentleman raises.

18:13

Mark Sewards MP (Leeds South West and Morley, Labour)

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A final question. >> Mark Sewards thank you, Madam. >> Deputy Speaker. >> The Education. >> Select Committee heard evidence

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Select Committee heard evidence from Snapchat, who in turn pushed back on any idea and the hard evidence and facts that their evidence and facts that their platform caused harm to young people at all. So it was perhaps no surprise that the Esafety Commissioner in Australia opened an investigation into Snapchat for non-compliance with the ban over their. Against this backdrop, can the Secretary of State confirm that these social media companies will be held accountable? Should they try to subvert the new rules that we introduce and that parents won't be held accountable for enforcing them?

18:14

Rt Hon Liz Kendall MP, The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology (Leicester West, Labour)

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Absolutely. This is about the >> Absolutely. This is about the social media companies putting their house in order. And I know lots of people have said, won't you lots of people have said, won't you bow to pressure? You'll cave under it, you'll let them get. And I hope today we show our intention that we today we show our intention that we want a better life for children. We want to put power into parents hands. We want to reset social norms. And that is what this government is absolutely determined to do.

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I try to go as fast as I could, but we couldn't get everybody in. That is the end of the statement. I'll give the front benchers a few moments. We must move on swiftly. We now come to the statement on

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We now come to the statement on Russian Shadow fleet, and I call this active state Dan Jarvis. With your permission.

18:15

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Madam Deputy. Activity against the Russian Shadow fleet. Before I begin, I would like to take the opportunity to pay to take the opportunity to pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Rawmarsh and Conisbrough, who led the Department through a period of growing instability with a clarity of purpose and a sure judgement. I thank him sincerely for all that he did as a Secretary of State. He leaves office safe in the knowledge that our armed forces are better prepared and better supported than when he assumed it.

Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, this is my first appearance in the House since my appointment as the Secretary of State for defence. It is a privilege and a responsibility beyond all measure, not least because this is a moment of challenge for our nation, and it is my job to make sure that we rise to meet that moment now. It's been some time since I left the armed forces. The tactics, technology and threats have all changed beyond recognition. The one thing, however, that has remained constant is the professionalism, courage and extraordinary skill of our servicemen and women.

Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, these virtues were exemplified in full yesterday in the English Channel. In the early hours of the morning, 25 miles south of the Isle of Wight, Royal Marine Commandos fast roped under the cover of darkness onto the deck of the Smartos, a 244 metre long oil tanker which at the time of interception was travelling at ten knots. Within a matter of minutes, our Marines had seized control of the vessel without resistance. They worked closely in this operation with specialist officers from the National Crime Agency and were supported by aircraft from the Maritime Air Group, including Chinook's, Merlin, Mk4 and Wildcat Helicopters, an RAF P eight and type 23 frigate HMS Sutherland and Minehunter HMS Ledbury.

I also want to take the opportunity to recognise the vital contribution of the Home Office's Border Security Command maritime teams. This was a highly complex operation executed with remarkable precision, lasting six hours. This Royal Navy led interdiction was the first of its kind for UK forces, and the result of careful and meticulous planning across multiple government departments and agencies. All military and law enforcement personnel are safely accounted for, and I know that the whole House will join me in paying deepest respect and sear, thanks to the hundreds of people who were involved.

Now, the vessel is now secured outside of port limits at Weymouth Anchorage, a 38 year old Indian national has been arrested on suspicion of suspected sanctions offences. All other 24 crew members remain on board and are assisting the NCA. This is a live criminal investigation and further updates will be provided at the appropriate moment. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, in the days leading up to this interdiction, UK Armed Forces supported by our allies, including France, to whom I am very grateful, closely tracked and monitored the vessel on the grounds it was suspected of using a false flag.

This was a vessel sanctioned by the UK sailing without nationality, transporting sanctioned Russian oil. And I can confirm to the House that this operation was conducted in accordance with international law, including the United Nations Convention on the law of the sea and the relevant domestic legislation. Yesterday's operation follows the support that the UK has provided the US and France in the interdiction of several Shadow Fleet ships this year and in March. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made clear our intention to interdict shadow Fleet vessels at a time and place of our choosing.

This had a clear deterrent effect, with many vessels taking longer and more costly routes to evade action taken by the UK and our allies. Madam Deputy Speaker, let me expand on why this operation matters. We know who benefits from the Shadow Fleet. Over 700 vessels are used to move around 40% of Russian oil, and we know who suffers from the shadow fleet. Sanctioned oil is bankrolling Putin's brutal war in Ukraine. Every barrel sold helps fund the missiles and drones used to kill Ukrainians in their homes, destroy their infrastructure and break their will.

This operation deals another blow to Putin. And we are clear with Russia about our intentions and our basis to act. We do not seek escalation, but we will always take the necessary steps to enforce UK sanctions. The UK has sanctioned over 550 Russian shadow fleet vessels. This has had a material impact. Nearly 200 have been forced to anchor because of the action of the UK and our partners, and yesterday's operation sends a clear signal to Russia that the UK and its allies can and will act against the Russian war machine.

We will use every measure available to prevent the trade in sanctioned goods, which funds Putin's illegal war. Now, yesterday's operation demonstrates that the UK's commitment to securing a just and lasting peace for Ukraine is absolute. I know that President Zelensky thanked the UK following the interdiction, yet we should remember that it is us who owe the Ukrainian people. They've now resisted Putin's full scale invasion for more than four years and suffered under the pain of occupation for more than 12.

And still they fight for their security and for ours, for their values and for ours now. Yesterday, I spoke to the Ukrainian defence Minister to assure him that whilst there has been a change in leadership in UK defence, there has been no change in our position. The UK will stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes and on Thursday I will be at the NATO headquarters to co-chair the next meeting of the Ukraine Defence Contact Group and secure the arms and ammunition Ukraine's forces need to fight Putin's war machine.

Madam Deputy Deputy Speaker, let me end by saying something that I have always believed, and that is that the defence of our nation is a shared endeavour. It falls to those of us who step forward to protect the country in and out of uniform, and we owe a debt of gratitude to all those people who expose themselves to risk yesterday to those who will do so tonight, tomorrow and in the future. I have a responsibility now to them to make sure that they get what they need.

And I am determined

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to fulfil those duties. I commend the statement to the House. Shadow Secretary of State, James Cartlidge. Yeah. Thank you.

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Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker. And can I thank the Defence. Secretary for. Advance sight of his statement and begin by welcoming to his new and begin by welcoming to his new post. The Secretary of State had a distinguished military career, and, as security Minister, will have had a foretaste of the operational a foretaste of the operational demands of his new job, I will be turning to the circumstances that brought him to that position

18:23

James Cartlidge MP (South Suffolk, Conservative)

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brought him to that position shortly, but we wish him well in his position. Can I also welcome the new Minister for veterans to his post, and welcome his predecessor to her new role as Armed Forces Minister? Madam Speaker, I also pay personal tribute to the previous Secretary of State. On the day he resigned, I said he was an honourable man who had done an honourable thing and I meant it. Whatever our political differences, I respect the dignity with which he left government on a point of principle in the national interest.

On the seizure of the Russian shadow fleet vessel. The opposition welcomes this action and the way it was conducted throughout his time in office. The previous Secretary of State and I maintained a rock solid consensus in support of Ukraine, standing shoulder to shoulder against the Russian threat whenever he announced action against Russian naval activity in our territorial waters, such as against Yantar. I welcomed it because we must stand strong against the serious threat posed by Putin. That's why it's important that this vessel was seized.

But I do have one particular concern. It was back in March when the Prime Minister announced that British armed forces are now able to board sanctioned vessels that are passing through our waters. But since then, the BBC reports that in at least 94 instances, shadow fleet vessels crossed into UK territorial waters without a single one being interdicted by our armed forces. So until this weekend, almost three months after the policy was announced, no boarding of these vessels had taken place. What changed on the specific action that took place? I pay tribute to all our brave armed forces and law enforcement personnel involved, who conducted their mission to the highest professional standards.

Because one thing is certain about those who serve in our military. Give them the kit and they will do the job. But here is where the problem lies. This operation was necessary as part of our overall policy to deter Russia. However, that attempt at deterrence has been completely undermined by the total debacle of the Defence Investment Plan. Last week, we witnessed an unprecedented moment in UK defence, the likes of which has never been seen before, with the Secretary of State, his deputy and two PDS all resigning in total and unprecedented chaos.

The defence Secretary resigned from government because the money the Prime Minister was offering for the Defence Investment Plan was so meagre that it would, and I quote, make the country less safe and reduce the readiness of our forces and increase the risk to personnel on operations. That is a shattering verdict on this government's plans for defence, and it was one shared by the former armed forces Minister. Now, for some reason, he didn't get a mention in the Secretary of State's statement or in the response from his junior Minister earlier.

But as we are talking about the actions of our of our Royal Marines, let me put on record my huge respect for the former Minister, for the Armed Forces and the way in which he, too, resigned on a matter of principle. We share a passion for delivering the drone revolution, and given his distinguished military record, it was damning for him to say that the defence investment Plan was, and I quote, not built for the threat we face. It is neither transformative enough nor sufficiently funded.

In particular, in his resignation letter, the previous armed Forces Minister stated that the Northern Ireland Troubles Bill is unfit for purpose. We agree 100%, Just as the professionalism of our personnel was at the heart of this weekend's interdiction operation. Standing by our veterans and serving personnel must be at the heart of defence policy. So, as a veteran of Operation Banner himself, does the Secretary of State agree that the last thing the government should be doing is hounding former soldiers through the courts? If he agrees, will he therefore urge the Prime Minister to scrap the Northern Ireland Troubles Bill? On the core issue of funding, it will be deeply worrying for our for our allies in NATO to see the chaos now surrounding the Defence Investment Plan meant to transform our armed forces.

The very Secretary of State responsible for delivering the dip until five days ago said it will make us less safe. That's because the money on offer was nothing like enough. So is it true that the Prime Minister is refusing to give the Secretary of State any more cash for the Defence Investment Plan? If so, in principle, does he welcome the offer from the Leader of the Opposition to work with the government to find the welfare savings, to fund defence? To conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker, as this is our first exchange at the despatch box since his appointment, can I assure the Secretary of State that we are willing to work with him in the national interest to find the money for defence? Will he work with us? Hear, hear.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm very grateful to the Shadow Secretary of State for his welcome. I was pleased to have the opportunity to speak to him on Friday evening. I do want to work constructively with him and colleagues on all sides of the House. I said in my opening remarks

18:28

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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that I believe very strongly that defence, the defence of our nation, should be a shared endeavour. That should be a shared endeavour. That is always the approach that I've taken in this House, and I very much hope that it is the approach much hope that it is the approach that we can continue with. I am also grateful to him for his also grateful to him for his support for yesterday's action, as well as the cross-party consensus that I am, as I am sure he is that I am, as I am sure he is genuinely proud of with regard to Putins illegal war in Ukraine.

Now I understand why he asked about the timing of the operation, but I can say to him, and he will know this from his own time as a Minister in the department, that the activity that was brilliantly and bravely executed yesterday was the result of weeks of military and operational planning. I know that he will understand very well that the UK has played a critical role in in the interdiction of a number of shadow fleets in shadow Fleet ships in recent months, including through close cooperation with our US and French counterparts.

And the Prime Minister, as he mentioned, made clear our intention back in March that we would interdict shadow fleet vessels at a time and place of our choosing. And that is what we chose to do. And the shadow Defence Secretary mentioned the former Minister for the armed Forces. I was saving him up, not least because he is someone that I hold in the very highest of regard. He is an honourable, gallant member and it is very widely recognised that he has provided outstanding service to our country in the most difficult circumstances that anyone could ever imagine.

I am beyond proud that he sits on this side of the house, and I look forward to listening to him and working closely with him in the future. Now, the Shadow Secretary of State for entirely reasonable reasons, asked me about the Defence Investment Plan. I hope, though, in what I intend to be a spirit of constructive consensus, he will recognise that we, this government, have spent over £11 billion more this year on defence than was the case under the last year of the previous government.

Now I hope that he will also understand that colleagues across government have been working on the Defence Investment Plan for many, many months. It is a hugely important and significant piece of work. Its the first line by line defence Budget in 20 years. Now I fully appreciate the desire of the the Shadow Defence Secretary to see the content of that published as soon as possible. And I absolutely share that desire. And since being appointed as Defence Secretary just a couple of days ago, I've been working very closely with my department and with colleagues across government to make sure that we progress this work as an absolute priority.

The Prime Minister has said that we will publish this before the NATO summit next month, and we will.

18:31

Alex Baker MP (Aldershot, Labour)

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Alex Baker thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I welcome the Deputy Speaker. May I welcome the Secretary of State to his place, and we are looking forward to welcoming him to Aldershot and Farnborough for the National Armed Farnborough for the National Armed Forces Day celebrations. Can I say, on behalf of my constituents, I want to express our gratitude to want to express our gratitude to the British personnel involved in the operation in the channel for their immense bravery and professionalism. This is a major blow to Putins regime, but it also underscores the growing Russian threat to European security.

Everyone knows about NATO article three, but there are lesser known NATO. Article three is our commitment to preparedness. Does the Secretary of State agree with me that we need a total government approach to delivering NATO article three, with every Minister clear on how they can help us to be prepared? Secretary of State.

18:32

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Well, I'm grateful to her, not least because she has been a doughty champion of the garrison doughty champion of the garrison town that is Aldershot, and she speaks with great passion and knowledge about these matters. knowledge about these matters. She's right to raise concerns about the threat that we face from Russia. It is a threat that I have spent the last two years dealing with. She's also absolutely right for the need for a whole of government approach. That was an approach that I championed in my previous role across the Home Office and the Cabinet Office, and now within the Ministry of Defence.

I look forward to working with my colleagues right across government to make sure that

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we have got the appropriate defences to guard against the threat that we undoubtedly face from Russia. Liberal Democrat spokesperson

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Liberal Democrat spokesperson James MacCleary. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement and join others in welcoming him to his new role? Can I start as well by associating myself with the by associating myself with the remarks made by colleagues and thank our Royal Marines through their bravery and skill, they have denied Vladimir Putin the fossil

18:33

James MacCleary MP (Lewes, Liberal Democrat)

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denied Vladimir Putin the fossil fuel profits. He depends on profits, which, without their intervention, would have gone straight to Russia's front line against Ukraine. Their courageous action has already had a chilling effect on other shadow fleet vessels, with reports suggesting at least six ships altered course following the interdiction of the Smiths. Now that we've taken this step, albeit several months after the Prime Minister initially promised. Will the Secretary of State commit to stopping more shadow fleet vessels and ensure this isn't just a one off? Liberal Democrats believe that we shouldn't just be stopping these vessels, but we should also be making sure that their seizure of their cargo can be used to fund Ukraine's defence.

We've already called for the 30 billion in frozen Russian assets across Britain to be used to support Kiev's war effort. We need to do the same with Shadow Fleet fuel. Will the Minister commit to seizing and selling the sanctioned oil being transported by the Smiths and for any future interdictions, and send the resulting funds to Ukraine? The next critical step must also be to close legitimate routes to market for all Russian fossil fuels, spearheaded by our leader in the other place, Lord Purvis.

Liberal Democrats won an important concession last week on this issue, securing a commitment from the government to to end to an end date for its waiver on sanctions for the import of diesel and fuel products refined by Russian crude. This gaping loophole should never have come into force in the first place. The government must now go further. Will the Secretary of State work with colleagues across government to ban all UK maritime services for the export of Russian oil, gas and

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coal? We must end once and for all the scandal of UK plc helping to fund Putins war machine. Secretary of State.

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Secretary of State. I'm grateful to him, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the very constructive tone of his comments, constructive tone of his comments, and I'm very keen to to work with him and colleagues on his benches on these matters. I think he's absolutely right to raise the point about the deterrent effect. The Prime Minister's announcement back

18:35

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Prime Minister's announcement back in March has been extremely helpful in that regard, and I understand and agree the sentiment of the points that he went on to make. I know that he will understand, and I referenced this in my earlier remarks, that because there is now an ongoing criminal investigation, I'm not able to say anything more about the specifics regarding this vessel and the oil contained within it. He made some important points. I thought about sanctions and the need to ensure that we are working across government.

I give him an assurance that that absolutely will be our approach. It's very important that, as a department, we work very closely with our colleagues in the Treasury, and I'm very pleased to be joined by the Chancellor. And I also discussed these matters with the Foreign Secretary earlier on today. So I give him the assurances that he seek.

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Lloyd Hatton thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Secretary of State for his statement. I would briefly like to statement. I would briefly like to pay tribute to our Armed Forces and the NCA for successfully intercepting the Russian oil tanker intercepting the Russian oil tanker off the coast of Weymouth and Portland yesterday. As has been mentioned, this is the first mentioned, this is the first British led operation of its kind, and it delivers a blow to Putin's illegal war in Ukraine, which

18:36

Lloyd Hatton MP (South Dorset, Labour)

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illegal war in Ukraine, which threatens our collective security in Europe. Regarding next steps, can the Secretary of State reassure my constituents that any potential environmental and public safety risks have been fully considered, and that the right specialist teams are on hand to assist if needed? And while I fully appreciate the complexity of such an operation, can I politely urge the Secretary of State to maintain this posture and to exploit further opportunities to degrade Putin's war machine and scuttle Russia's shadow fleet? Yeah.

18:36

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Well, I'm very grateful to him. And of course, he has an important And of course, he has an important and close constituency interest in these matters. And I give him the assurances he seeks. I thought he assurances he seeks. I thought he raised a number of important points, and given his close interest in these matters, I suggest he comes these matters, I suggest he comes and has a brief from the Minister for the Armed Forces who's just made that offer to him. But I'm grateful for his comments today, and we look forward to working closely with him on it.

18:37

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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So, Julian Lewis, may I wish the new Secretary of State the best of luck in his new post and express the hope that the appearance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer alongside him on his first outing alongside him on his first outing is not too symbolic of what's been going on, perhaps in back rooms behind the Treasury, and on the question of the seizure of the ships. Does he agree with me that there is a possibility that Russia may, in response, start to think about escorting such ships by means of warships? This would, of course, expose Russia's hand very much more clearly, but it does bring a whole element of possible escalation into play, including the possibility of Ukrainian strikes against those ships.

We all know how successful Ukrainian has been in the Black Sea. It might end up doing something similar in the Baltic Sea and beyond.

18:38

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, as I always am, for his sage counsel on these matters. He's sage counsel on these matters. He's been talking about them for very, very many years. He referenced the presence of the Chancellor on the front bench, and the Chancellor is someone who cares very deeply about someone who cares very deeply about our national security, and that is why she is here to lend that support. He understandably raised a very important point about the risk and the threat of retaliatory action from Russia.

He will know because he and I have discussed it on many occasions. I've spent the last two years thinking very carefully about that particular point. Of course, we take every measure and use all of the tools at our disposal to guard against that. But I think he will agree that ultimately, that the activity that we saw in the English Channel yesterday was the right one. We have to stand together against Russia in support of Ukraine, and that is what this government will do.

18:39

Alex Sobel MP (Leeds Central and Headingley, Labour )

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Alex Sobel thank you. >> And I'd like to start by praising 42 Commando for the planning and execution of what could have been a very difficult operation. Today in Parliament, we had the Ukrainian speaker, Ruslan Stepanyuk, visit us, and the APPG hosted him, and he said that he hoped to see further action on the Shadow Fleet, including on the Ark seven Arctic ready LNG tankers, which are still unsanctioned by the United Kingdom. But could. I also wrote to Minister Doughty and he responds to me about the order.

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The hon. Gentleman has been here long enough to know that we don't refer to Ministers by their name.

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refer to Ministers by their name. Could he perhaps make sure that his question briefly finishes. The Foreign Office Minister,

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The Foreign Office Minister, about the remaining licences for Russian fossil fuels? And he said that they would. And here he is, and they would be ending in January and they would be ending in January 2027. Now, the Straits of Hormuz are open. Could that not be finished earlier? Because another six months of Russian profiteering

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six months of Russian profiteering from the UK is not acceptable. Carrier state? Well, I'm very grateful to him for his reference of 42 Commando. He's someone who has a very long standing support of Ukraine. I hope he heard my earlier remarks that my first international call as a Secretary of State was with my counterpart in Ukraine, who I will be meeting on Thursday. His point about the FCDO licences was well made, and my hon. Friend has made, and my hon.

Friend has arrived right on cue.

18:40

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Richard Foord thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'd like to congratulate the hon. Member for Barnsley North on his appointment as Secretary of State for defence. Given his experience as Security Minister, there are a few members of this House who understand the threats better than he does. It was very welcome to learn last Friday that the government has committed to banning imports of diesel and jet fuel made from Russian oil by the 1st of January, and it was impressive to see a shadow fleet vessel interdicted in the English vessel interdicted in the English Channel this weekend.

But given that this is one of just. Well, it's one of 550 sanctioned shadow it's one of 550 sanctioned shadow fleet vessels, does the Secretary of State think the government would do well to revoke that licence to do well to revoke that licence to import diesel and jet fuel made from Russian oil before the end of this year?

18:41

Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)

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True of state.

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Reviewing every fortnight I made a commitment. Well, I'm grateful to him, not least as a fellow veteran and least as a fellow veteran and someone who served on the ISC. So he speaks with authority about these matters. He's made an these matters. He's made an important point, and I've been given assurances by my right hon. Friend, that we keep these things

18:41

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Friend, that we keep these things under very, very close review. >> Anneliese Dodds thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I also want to commend our brave forces for their skilful action, and welcome my right hon. Friend to his place. He just spoke passionately about defending British values. Of course, at the same time as our own brave forces were planning their decisive action against the Russian shadow fleet. Stephen Yaxley-lennon was praising Russia, sat alongside praising Russia, sat alongside Errol Musk in Moscow.

So will he seek to work with colleagues across seek to work with colleagues across government to join up action against Russia's shadow fleet, with action to defend our country action to defend our country against Russia's shadow influencing operations. Secretary of State.

18:42

Rt Hon Anneliese Dodds MP (Oxford East, Labour )

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Well, I'm very grateful to my right hon. Friend. I think she makes a very, very important point. And I think there is widespread agreement for it. And she will know that I spent much of the past two years doing exactly what she describes, and I look forward to working closely with my predecessor to make sure that we prosecute Russia's proxies and counter their illegal activities wherever it illegal activities wherever it raises its ugly head.

18:42

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Doctor Andrew Murrison.

18:43

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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Congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his appointment and wish him all the best of luck. wish him all the best of luck. He'll certainly need it. I congratulate all involved in the congratulate all involved in the successful operation in the channel, the reputation of our troops, of course, is peerless, and this operation follows similar operations by our allies France, Germany and the US. But can I press the Secretary of State on the point raised by my hon. Friend the Shadow Defence Secretary in relation to the Northern Ireland Legacy Bill, which he did not address and which is a OP banner veteran, surprised me slightly.

He must have a view on this. Will he now make sure in his new office that this dreadful measure is cancelled, and bring comfort to those who are threatened by it?

18:43

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Yes. >> Yes. >> Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm very grateful to him, not least for the experience that he brings to the experience that he brings to these matters. And he knows the huge regard that I have for his constituents, not least because of constituents, not least because of their very long standing support for the armed forces. He's right to praise them, and he's right to reference the importance of their reputation. The reputation of our armed forces is something that we can all be proud of.

It goes right around the world. I hope, though, he will understand that the purpose of my appearance here today is to give an operational update based on the activity that took place in the English Channel yesterday. I think he will understand that just a couple of days into the job, I'm not in a position to provide a further update on the matters that he raises. He knows how seriously I take them. He knows that I will consider the matter that he has raised and work very closely with my colleagues in other government departments, including the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, and no doubt we will both have more to say about it soon.

18:45

Jim Dickson MP (Dartford, Labour)

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Jim Dickson thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I thank the Deputy Speaker. Can I thank the Secretary of State for his update, welcome him to his place and also join him in paying tribute to the join him in paying tribute to the exceptional bravery and skill of those who carried out the recent operation on the Shadow Fleet. Does operation on the Shadow Fleet. Does he agree with me that it's absolutely vital that we continue to squeeze the Russian economy in every way we possibly can, including many more operations of this kind against the Shadow Fleet, so that we can ultimately support Ukraine in a successful outcome in resisting Putin's illegal war.

18:45

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Secretary of State. exactly right to raise the point in the way that he does. I'm joined on the front bench by my colleague from the Foreign Office, who takes from the Foreign Office, who takes these matters incredibly seriously. And I know that there is a huge activity right across government. I activity right across government. I think it's also important to highlight the continued support for Ukraine, not least the UK's largest ever drone package for Ukraine delivered 120,000 drones this year. So squeeze the Russian economy.

Yes, support our Ukrainian partners to make sure that they can stay in the fight and win it. Thanks, Vikki Slade.

18:46

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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On Saturday night, I heard the unmistakeable sound of Chinook helicopters passing over my home in Dorset en route to intercept the Russian tanker. Whether it's shadow Russian tanker. Whether it's shadow fleet funding, the war against Ukraine, spy ship scanning our sea beds, political interference of our beds, political interference of our democracy, including the former reform leader in Wales taking bribes, it is clear that Russia are upping their game. So, as I asked last week about energy, food and information security, what assurance can the new Secretary of State give us about how this is being addressed to keep us all safe at home?

18:46

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Secretary of State? that she described at the beginning of her remarks is one that I am very familiar with. It's one that makes the hairs on the back of my makes the hairs on the back of my neck still stand up to this day. I know she has a very long standing interest in these matters. I thought she raised an important point. I give her the assurances that we seek, that we work collaboratively across government to maximise the deterrent effect on Russia and their illegal activities, and wherever we can seek to do more to prosecute activities against them, then we will absolutely do so.

18:47

Amanda Martin MP (Portsmouth North, Labour)

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Amanda Martin thank you, Madam >> Amanda Martin thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I welcome the Secretary of State to his place. Madam Deputy Speaker, operations such as this demonstrate an such as this demonstrate an incredible level of planning, coordination, professionalism across our armed forces, police, border force and wider government. border force and wider government. And to all those involved, I pay tribute and say thank you for a city like Portsmouth, which has supported generations of those who serve. This is a reminder of the importance of expertise.

So can the Secretary of State confirm that all departments work closely together, and will continue to do so in a safe and legal and effective operation? And can he confirm that this operation was conducted in a way that ensured the safety of UK citizens and our military personnel involved?

18:47

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Secretary of State well, Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm very grateful to her. She's right to draw to her. She's right to draw attention to the meticulous planning that undergoes these kind of complex military operations. of complex military operations. There are lots of moving parts. There is risk that is carried by those brave enough to undertake those brave enough to undertake them, and we owe them a huge debt of gratitude. Just say one other thing to my hon. Friend, because the other huge debt of gratitude that we owe is to the family members of those who stepped

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forward, which I know that she is proudly one. Yes, sir. Alec Shelbrooke thank you,

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Alec Shelbrooke thank you, Deputy Speaker. AM I first of all, offer my congratulations to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman. right hon. and gallant Gentleman. He is a good fit for the role, and I hope that he will listen across the house and try and work the house and try and work constructively. It's in that spirit, Madam Deputy Speaker, that this was an incredible operation and was reliant on the Royal Navy and the

18:48

Rt Hon Sir Alec Shelbrooke MP (Wetherby and Easingwold, Conservative)

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reliant on the Royal Navy and the Royal Marines. Earlier today, I asked the procurement Minister about whether the plans in place for the type 26 is the type 31, and indeed the type 83 would remain as outlined. And I really am looking for an answer of yes or no to this, because there are shipyards who are really wondering whether they can keep the current workforce because they're relying on the dip and it's not there. So may I just ask very directly to the Secretary of State, the plans that are in place for ships for the Royal Navy, is that going to remain?

18:49

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Secretary of State Madam Deputy Speaker I'm genuinely grateful to the right hon. Gentleman because the right hon. Gentleman because for many, many years he has spoken with real authority on these matters. I hope that he understands matters. I hope that he understands that this particular moment, as we seek to ensure that the Dip does seek to ensure that the Dip does precisely what all of us, I think, want it to do. I'm not going to delve into the specifics of precisely what might be contained with it, but I hope that he will understand that this government is very clear, that we will always back British shipbuilding.

18:49

Mr Clive Betts MP (Sheffield South East, Labour)

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Clive Betts thank you, Madam >> Clive Betts thank you, Madam Speaker. Could I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his appointment and say I'm sure he's appointment and say I'm sure he's very well suited for the job that's at hand, but I'm sure he will understand if I also express my understand if I also express my disappointment that his predecessor and my constituency neighbour felt he had to resign because of inadequacy. He saw it in the defence investment plan. Could I say on this particular issue about the season of this tanker, could I again congratulate everyone involved? It's an important lesson, I think, to Putin that we are going to disrupt his war machine.

But it's the first. Could he indicate that this is something now we're looking to do more regularly to make sure that the many tankers that sail in these waters are, in

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future, not free to do so without the fear that our government may act against them? Secretaries of State well, I'm

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Secretaries of State well, I'm very grateful to my hon. Friend, and I absolutely share the sentiment that he expressed at the sentiment that he expressed at the beginning of his question. I was anticipating that he might seek to draw reference to the hugely draw reference to the hugely important industrial activity that takes place in and around his constituency in South Yorkshire.

18:50

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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constituency in South Yorkshire. This department, this government believes very strongly that defence is an engine for growth, and I am acutely aware of the economic opportunities that exist in his part of the world. He is right to reference the fact that this is the first type of activity of its kind. It will sow the seeds of doubt in our adversary's mind. I know that he will understand that I am not going to speculate about what we might do in future, but the simple act of the Prime Minister's commitment back in March has had a

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very significant deterrent effect, as will the activities of yesterday morning. Richard Tice. Thank you, Madam.

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Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker, and we welcome the Secretary of State to his place and pay tribute and give our thanks and pay tribute and give our thanks to our incredible armed forces in the successful seizure of the the successful seizure of the Shadow Tanker. It was nice to see the Chancellor, alongside the Secretary of State for the first half of this statement. Shall we

18:51

Richard Tice MP (Boston and Skegness, Reform UK)

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half of this statement. Shall we take from her departure that she's only half committed to funding the investment plan?

18:51

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Secretary of State. >> The the hon. Gentleman, I have to say, is a constant source of disappointment to me. Not, not not least because I believe he has the least because I believe he has the potential to be the statesperson of his party.

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There's a very low threshold. It would be very mean of me to say that it is a low bar. So. So I won't say that. But the hon. Gentleman I think, I think is Gentleman I think, I think is unfair on my right hon. Friend, I think it is important that the Chancellor took the opportunity to be here. That was a demonstration be here. That was a demonstration of her commitment to this particular important piece of work, and I, for one, am very grateful

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for that. Sarah Smith thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. While our brave servicemen and women were defending our national interests over the weekend, today it's been reported in the BBC that Russian state operatives were linked with arson attacks on our Prime Minister. And just last week,

18:52

Sarah Smith MP (Hyndburn, Labour)

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Stephen Yaxley-lennon was meeting with Errol Musk in Russia, while with Errol Musk in Russia, while the Member for Great Yarmouth has said he would not block that same individual from joining his party. Does the Secretary of State agree with me that there is no greater threat to our national security, threat to our national security, nor anything more unpatriotic than this dangerous rise in far right

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politics across our country? Secretary of State. Well, I completely agree with my hon. Friend, I think she makes a very important point. She referenced the abhorrent attacks that we've seen in recent times. I know that she won't expect me to get into the detail of all of that, but what I can say is, and I saw

18:53

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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this very clearly in my previous role, that our counter-terrorism police are operational partners in the security services are extraordinarily dedicated in the extraordinarily dedicated in the work that we do. All of that is done in the shadows. We should be very grateful for their efforts. very grateful for their efforts. And I give her and the House an assurance that we take the threat that she describes incredibly seriously, and we will make sure

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seriously, and we will make sure that we always guard against it. Sir John Whittingdale. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And can I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his appointment and welcome the action in the channel. However, he will also be aware that last night saw one of the biggest attacks yet on civilian buildings and people in Kyiv, and

18:54

Rt Hon Sir John Whittingdale MP (Maldon, Conservative)

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included the damage to the historic cathedral there. He'll also be cathedral there. He'll also be aware that dual use technology is still going via third countries and arriving in Russia. And we heard arriving in Russia. And we heard today from a Russian speaker about washing machine Microcircuits, which were supposedly going to which were supposedly going to Kazakhstan, being found in Russian missiles falling on Kyiv. Can he look again with his colleagues at look again with his colleagues at what further action we can take to stop this technology being used to kill more people in Ukraine? Madam Deputy Speaker, the right hon.

Gentleman is absolutely right to draw attention to the horror of the continued attacks that we're seeing on civilians in Ukraine. It is beyond abhorrent, and we must continue to remind ourselves of the

18:54

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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totally reckless nature of Putin's illegal war. And that's why, as a government, we have an absolute responsibility to use all means at our disposal to make it as practically difficult for Russia as we possibly can. I'm extremely grateful to the efforts of the Ministers who have sat alongside me in the work that they do to combat that particular threat. I know that they all take it incredibly

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they all take it incredibly seriously, and I look forward to working very closely with them in that endeavour. Chris Webb thank you.

18:55

Chris Webb MP (Blackpool South, Labour)

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Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I warmly welcome Secretary of State to his place? I know he's a man of to his place? I know he's a man of integrity and decency. I have known him for over 15 years, and I really wish him the best of luck in his wish him the best of luck in his new role. And I also join him in paying tribute to the men and women who organised and conducted this operation. They are the best of the best, the bravest of the brave, and we all thank them across this House and beyond.

But international cooperation is also hugely important in tackling the Russian shadow fleet. So can the Secretary of State confirm that we are working closely with our allies to take every opportunity to degrade their war effort?

18:56

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Hear, hear. hon. Friend who I have known for a very, very long time. I know that he proudly represents a constituency with a long track constituency with a long track record of sending young men and women off to serve in our armed forces, and he is a great champion forces, and he is a great champion of them and all of those who serve. He's completely right to raise the important point about international cooperation. I've spent much of the weekend talking with allies, and I will be heading to Brussels on Wednesday in order to co-chair the Ukraine contact group with my German counterpart.

I also know that my Foreign Office colleague, who has joined me on the frontbench, works tirelessly on these matters to make sure that we collaborate as closely with our international partners to tighten the screw on Russia.

18:56

Brendan O'Hara MP (Argyll, Bute and South Lochaber, Scottish National Party)

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Brendan O'Hara Madam Deputy Speaker, I congratulate the right Speaker, I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his appointment, and I too, pay credit to the Royal Marines and a job well done. And of Marines and a job well done. And of course, welcome anything that helps our allies in Ukraine fighting for our allies in Ukraine fighting for their freedom. Of course, decisive action against the Russian shadow fleet could and should have been taken much earlier. And I do not think I am being overly cynical in suggesting there may be a link between the Prime Minister finally sanctioning this operation and the disintegration that we witnessed at the MoD last week.

Given that disintegration was entirely due to the failure of the Treasury to adequately fund our conventional forces? Does he share my fear that the seizing of unarmed merchant shipping should soon become the limit of the Royal Navy's surface capability?

18:57

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Secretary of State. >> Madam Deputy Speaker, let me join with him in paying warm tribute to the Royal Marines. I should probably confess that I should probably confess that I haven't spent all of my adult life paying tribute to the Royal Marines, but I'm very proud to be able to do but I'm very proud to be able to do so now. In terms of his second point, let me just say to him, there is no link.

18:58

Fleur Anderson MP (Putney, Labour)

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Laura Anderson. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will join all hon. Members and the Secretary of State in paying tribute to the Royal Marines, as we are very proud to host the Royal are very proud to host the Royal Marine Reserves in my constituency. I welcome the Secretary of State to his place, and I really welcome his his place, and I really welcome his assurance that we have not missed a beat in our support for Ukraine. I've been to Ukraine with many hon. Members in the chamber tonight, and we know how much the bombs of last night and the attacks of last night on Kyiv will have frightened the people of Ukraine, but how steadfastly supportive they remain.

And these were these deeds pay a more important than any words that we can say. Can I please urge the Secretary of State and his Cabinet colleagues to maintain this posture, to keep up the action and exploit future opportunities to continue to degrade Putin's war machine so that this illegal war in Ukraine will come to an end.

18:58

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Well, I'm very grateful to her on both counts, not least because on both counts, not least because initially she raised the the the Royal Marine Reserves. And I think it is very important that we pay tribute to all of those who serve tribute to all of those who serve in the reserves. I'm constantly inspired by those who are able to balance civilian life, family life and service life, and we owe them a huge debt of gratitude. In terms of the substantive point, I absolutely give her the assurances that she seek.

That is why, as I say, I've spent much of the weekend talking to allies, and that's why on Thursday, I will be in Brussels to co-chair the next meeting of the Ukraine Defence Contract group so that working with our partners, we can make sure that Ukraine's forces get the support that they need to

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fight Putin's war machine. Alicia Kearns thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I welcome the Deputy Speaker. Can I welcome the hon. Member to his place and thank the Royal Marines, Navy and National Crime Agency for their work over this weekend. It is very work over this weekend. It is very important. We do need to see more initiatives on this basis, but can the state give a very specific cost the state give a very specific cost to the House for the cost of maintaining and ultimately decommissioning this ship, because the state wasn't willing to tell us

19:00

Alicia Kearns MP (Rutland and Stamford, Conservative)

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the state wasn't willing to tell us whether or not the seized oil will pay for that, and this will run into the millions. So the Minister

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will know the exact costs that the House can work out where that funding is going to come from. Are.

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Are. Well, I'm grateful to her and genuinely sorry that she won't be shadowing me anymore, but I know shadowing me anymore, but I know that she will continue to provide constructive contributions in the way that she has. The figure that way that she has. The figure that she seeks doesn't sit within my department. It will sit within, I think, the Department for transport.

19:00

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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think, the Department for transport. I'll correct the record if I've got that wrong, but I hope she understands that. It's been very close collaboration across government with different government departments. There was a huge planning amount of planning that went into launching this operation. It was a truly joined up approach across government, with

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important contributions made by the Department for transport, but also the Department of DTE as well. Chris Bloore Madam Deputy

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Chris Bloore Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I congratulate my hon. Friend on his new role in and out of uniform. He has dedicated his of uniform. He has dedicated his life to this country and we're grateful to sit behind him. Yeah, yeah. Can I also pay tribute to the yeah. Can I also pay tribute to the brave men and women that executed the operation over the weekend with the most utmost skill? It's clear the operation of the weekend

19:01

Chris Bloore MP (Redditch, Labour)

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the operation of the weekend required multiple stakeholders and international cooperation to deliver an excellent result on that international cooperation. Can I ask the new Secretary of State if this is the start of a more aggressive attitude to that shadow fleet in British waters that is conducting an illegal trade to fund an illegal war?

19:01

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Secretary of State. again, he's right to highlight the importance of international cooperation. I think robust action is the word that I would use. I is the word that I would use. I think that the stakes of the war in Ukraine are so high that we absolutely owe it, not just the people of Ukraine, but to the people in this country to make sure that we are using robust action in the way that we saw yesterday. He's right also, to make the point about the amount of preparation and the planning that goes into these activities.

It was an absolute privilege to be very closely sited on the deployment of our troops over the course of this weekend. They performed a very difficult and complex, complex tasks task in an exemplary way. And he, like all of us I know, are very proud of them.

19:02

Victoria Collins MP (Harpenden and Berkhamsted, Liberal Democrat)

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Victoria Collins thank. Standing up to Russia. Standing shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine. Supporting our military also Supporting our military also depends on our military infrastructure and our defence manufacturing. And yet today, a round table of advanced manufacturers across the whole supply chain were raising very loud alarm bells about the impact of steel tariffs, especially on category 14 and 17, with a looming deadline of the 1st of July. So with the Minister, speak with his colleagues. I see, especially from the Department of Business and Trade, to ensure that actually these tariffs don't have an inadvertent impact on our defence capabilities, especially at such an

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important time. Secretary of State. Madam Deputy Speaker, I think the hon. Lady raises a very important point. I've already taken the opportunity to already taken the opportunity to engage with colleagues in industry and my hon. Friend from the and my hon. Friend from the Department for Business and Trade said that he'd be very happy to Billington.

19:03

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Billington. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> My constituency. >> East Thanet is a maritime community, particularly in Ramsgate, community, particularly in Ramsgate, and the awareness of the importance of safety and security at sea resonates across our community.

19:03

Ms Polly Billington MP (East Thanet, Labour)

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This ship appears. flag of Cameroon, a flag of convenience that is used by shadow fleets to avoid being properly policed. What efforts are being made by the UK government, either independently or with its allies, or through international channels, to deter flagging states from offering stateless ships to cover of apparent respectability and lawfulness. Secretary of State.

19:03

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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I'm grateful to her, and she's absolutely right to raise the point about the importance of safety and security of those at sea. She made security of those at sea. She made an important point with regard to a flag of convenience. I know that she will understand that because of the ongoing investigation, I can't get into the specifics of this particular case, but my hon. Friend from the Foreign Office has just given me assurance that we are working very closely with our allies on the particular point that she's raised.

19:04

Ben Obese-Jecty MP (Huntingdon, Conservative)

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Ben Obese-Jecty. >> Battlefield promotion. >> He'll remember from his time in command that the best way to prove himself to his new team is to take himself to his new team is to take him out tomorrow morning and thrash him. So. So I look forward to that. On the question of the dip, it was On the question of the dip, it was widely reported last week that the funding settlement was 10 billion of cash, plus 3.5 billion, which I assume was the in-year cuts that were announced back in April.

What confidence does the Defence Secretary have that in the next two weeks that he's been given a stay of execution, that he'll be able to make that plan work more to a better standard than the previous defence secretary could in the previous nine months and ended up resigning over. And what will happen if the defence chiefs dig their heels in? Will he end up publishing the dip as it was before he took over, or can he guarantee

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that he will manage to change this sufficiently, that it will satisfy all the parties involved? Secretary of State. Well.

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Well. I'm grateful to him for his welcome, which. Felt a little bit different from some of the comments that I heard reported over the course of the weekend, but I. I will leave that weekend, but I. I will leave that to one side for now, not least because I think he's an extended an invitation to go out for a run in

19:05

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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invitation to go out for a run in the morning. He seems to be backtracking for that invitation. Madam Deputy Speaker. I understand why the hon. Gentleman raises the point, and he does in the way that he does. I hope that he will understand my determination to make progress. I know that he will understand that I have had a limited amount of time available to get into the detail of all of this. That is my absolute priority. That is what I will be returning to the department to do very shortly.

I hope he'll just give us a little bit of time, and in the end, it'll be for him to take a view about where we get to with this.

19:06

Mark Sewards MP (Leeds South West and Morley, Labour)

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Mark Sewards Madam. welcome the Secretary of State to his place? And can I also commend the Royal Marines, the National Crime Agency, the personnel from Crime Agency, the personnel from the RAF and all the others for conducting their work this weekend? Clearly, this isn't the end. We Clearly, this isn't the end. We will see. Of the Russian shadow fleet. There are reports that two more ships are sailing our way, sanctioned by the US, the EU, Canada but not by the UK. Now I am aware that he can't comment on future sanctions, but can he tell us that he will work extremely closely with our allies on sanctions alignment to close any loopholes that Putin might seek to take advantage of?

19:06

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm very grateful to my Yorkshire neighbour grateful to my Yorkshire neighbour for his welcome and for the tribute that he's paid to the Royal Marines, but also, I just want to emphasise but also, I just want to emphasise the support that he offered for the National Crime Agency. I was privileged to work very closely with him over the past two years. with him over the past two years. They do extraordinary work in the shadows, but we should be hugely grateful to them.

I give him the assurances that he seeks with regard to the close cooperation with our international allies. Joined on the front bench by my colleague from the Foreign Office. I know that he works incredibly hard to ensure that we are best joined up and working most closely with our allies. We take it very seriously. We understand the

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benefits of doing so. Brian Mathew thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I welcome the Deputy Speaker, and I welcome the Secretary of State to his position and thank him for his statement. and thank him for his statement. And indeed, our brave Royal Marines for undertaking this action. Madam Deputy Speaker, it's been reported Deputy Speaker, it's been reported in the press that our entire Hunter killer fleet is out of the water, being repaired and maintained. Is being repaired and maintained.

Is this true? And when will these submarines be back on duty defending our seas? Thank you.

19:07

Thank you. point that he's raised in the way that he has done it. I think he will understand that I'm not in a position to be able to talk about the the availability of submarines and that the activity that they undertake, but perhaps in the Tottenham gentleman opposite questions, why not? I'm quite certain that he wouldn't have done that when he was in government, and I'm not going to do it either. What I'm not going to do it either.

What I will do is pay tribute to those who serve on submarines for their outstanding service expense. outstanding service expense.

19:08

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I work my honourable welcome, my hon. Friend to his new role. I know he's a very humble man, but I want to say what a pleasure it is to work with him and hon. Members from across the House in this place. I also want to pay tribute to all

19:08

Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )

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the armed personnel, armed service personnel who took part in yesterday's really important operation. Clearly, sanctions are operation. Clearly, sanctions are really important and sanctions against the Russian war machine are incredibly important in defending incredibly important in defending our allies in Ukraine. However, sanctions only work if we look to enforce them. So what reassurance can the Secretary of State give me can the Secretary of State give me that we will continue to. This government will continue to support that enforcement.

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Tri-State. I'm very grateful to him. He's slightly thrown me because he isn't in his usual place, but it's good to see him over there. He's right about the importance of sanctions, but he's also right about the importance of sanctions enforcement. I know it is an issue that my hon. Friend the Minister from the Foreign Office takes very seriously. They kept under very close review, as with other colleagues across government, including with DBT. But I'm very happy to to speak to him more about it.

more about it.

19:09

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Peter Fortune thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and it's good to see the Member for Harlow. also.

19:09

Peter Fortune MP (Bromley and Biggin Hill, Conservative)

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Pay tribute to. this operation? They truly are the best of us. Madam Deputy Speaker, I wonder if the Secretary of State wonder if the Secretary of State could advise us on any actions that are being taken on the Russian frigate, the Admiral Grigorovich? I hope I got that right, which has been patrolling in English waters for two months without intervention from the Royal Navy.

19:10

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Nicholas Dakin. point that he's raised. I know that he will understand that it would be unwise of me to get into commentary with regard to specific activities, with regard to specific activities, but what I hope yesterday's actions demonstrate is our absolute resolve demonstrate is our absolute resolve to take robust action against Russia, and we will look for every opportunity to do that.

19:10

John Slinger MP (Rugby, Labour)

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John Slinger thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> To his. >> Place and his new position. Given that nearly three times as Given that nearly three times as many conservative hon. Members were in the Defence Industrial Plan statement as are in the chamber for statement as are in the chamber for this statement? Would he agree with me that while, of course we are all tempted on occasion to politicise issues, we are better when we speak with one voice in this House, particularly on matters of national security.

19:11

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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Secretary of State. >> Well, I think the hon. Member does raise an important point. I completely understand why members opposite and members elsewhere will opposite and members elsewhere will want to score political points. I think the public expect us to behave in a grown up fashion, behave in a grown up fashion, particularly when it comes to the defence of our nation. That will always be my approach, and that is

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the approach that I will recommend to others. Tessa Munt thank you, Madam

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Tessa Munt thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Welcome the Defence Secretary to his position and thank Secretary to his position and thank him for his statement. Sanctions are ineffective unless they're fully enforced, and I join my fully enforced, and I join my colleague on the Lib Dem, the spokesperson. Just to point out, of course, that we cannot allow loopholes to undermine our

19:11

Tessa Munt MP (Wells and Mendip Hills, Liberal Democrat)

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loopholes to undermine our sanctions regime against Putin's war machine. I point out the numerous shell companies that are used as a shield, as well as flags, to disguise operational control of its shadow fleet. But also Russia's using extensively non-military dual use manufacturing and the global commercial supply chain to support its war. So can I ask, what action is the Secretary of State taking to prevent Russia from using dual use manufacturing to boost the UK's manufacturing expertise, so it can identify potential dual use and to prevent commercial supply infrastructure to support its wall

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and to ensure that sanctions are fully enforced. Secretary of State. Well, the hon. Lady is right to

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Well, the hon. Lady is right to raise the importance of defence manufacturing, and she raised a number of other important points as number of other important points as well, not least around unpacking, transparency and shell companies. transparency and shell companies. My ministerial colleagues on both sides of me from the Foreign Office and from Darzi, were listening

19:12

Dan Jarvis MP, The Secretary of State for Defence (Barnsley North, Labour)

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and from Darzi, were listening intently to the points that she raised and were providing me with assurances that there is a lot of activity in their departments to stand against the kind of points that she raised. She's indicating that she wants somebody to write to

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her, and we'll work out which one of us is going to do so. Across the chamber. Can I.

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Thank the Secretary of State for his statement this afternoon? Speaker. Point of order.

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Point of order. David Reed thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. In the early Urgent Question on the Defence Investment Question on the Defence Investment Plan, the Minister for Defence Readiness and Industry said that the government are committed to all the government are committed to all 62 recommendations laid out in the Strategic Defence Review and in a later response to a right hon. Member, the Minister described those recommendations only as ones those recommendations only as ones the government supports. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, as you all know, the word committed carries specific the word committed carries specific financial meaning in our civil service.

So can the Minister use this opportunity to clarify the government's position? And if not, can you, Madam Deputy Speaker, answer?

19:13

David Reed MP (Exmouth and Exeter East, Conservative)

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Well done David.

19:13

Rt Hon Caroline Nokes MP (Romsey and Southampton North, Conservative)

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I'm grateful to the hon. Gentleman for notice of his point of order, and I understand that he of order, and I understand that he also notified the Minister that he intended to raise it. As he will know, this is not a matter for the know, this is not a matter for the chair, but I'm sure that the front bench has heard him, and if the Minister wished to respond, he Minister wished to respond, he could, of course, do so through a further point of order.

Point of order, Luke Pollard.

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I'm grateful for the my neighbour for allowing me to say again. We back all 62 recommendations of the Strategic Defence Review. We are implementing all 62 recommendations in the Strategic Defence Review. It's an Strategic Defence Review. It's an important one. First of its kind review, and it's one that this

19:14

Luke Pollard MP, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, Labour )

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government fully backs. >> Motion number one on business of

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Motion number one on business of the House today. Minister to move. I beg to move.

19:14

Motion: Business of the House (today)

The question is as on the Order Paper. The question is as on the Order Paper. As many as are of that Order Paper. As many as are of that opinion say, are Of the contrary, no. I think the ayes have it. The no. I think the ayes have it. The

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ayes have it. If. He. Royal Albert Hall Bill Lords

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revival now. Sir John Whittingdale.

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Yes. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And I.

19:15

Private Business: Opposed Private Business: Royal Albert Hall Bill [Lords]: Revival

>> And I. >> Am pleased to support the revival motion being tabled this revival motion being tabled this this afternoon. It is about eight months since I moved the Second

19:15

Rt Hon Sir John Whittingdale MP (Maldon, Conservative)

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19:31

Rt Hon Emily Thornberry MP (Islington South and Finsbury, Labour)

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19:45

Jonathan Davies MP (Mid Derbyshire, Labour)

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must continue to do it through the parliamentary process that we've got. Yes, I'm happy to give way. I'm really grateful for him giving way. He may or may not be aware that the proposals of this bill can, in fact, withdraw it at any time of their choosing, and I fear that the risk is were amendments to be made to this bill, the proposals would simply choose to withdraw it from consideration. Well, that is a risk. That is a risk that they take for the venue which they seek to seek a future of.

I would encourage the proposals of this bill to work with this House and to work with the other place as well, to make sure

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we get it over the line, because I want to see the Albert Hall give way. I'm most grateful to the hon. Gentleman. And actually, of course, Gentleman. And actually, of course, I think Paul would be only too happy to talk to him and to the right hon. Lady, indeed, they've right hon. Lady, indeed, they've asked me to write on the lady several times without success. But several times without success. But this is a very. As has been pointed out, this is a very narrow bill.

It has a very restrictive title, and has a very restrictive title, and it is essential if the Hall is to continue. So what I would ask is that by all means continue to talk to Paul, but don't stand in the way of this bill, which is absolutely

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vital if Paul is to continue. Davis, I'm not standing in the way of this bill. I want to see it.

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way of this bill. I want to see it. I want to see it proceed tonight. Hon. Gentleman, I don't know if the hon. Gentleman is aware that I've given the Albert Hall several dates to meet me, and they've not been back in touch. Jonathan Davies.

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been back in touch. Jonathan Davies. Well, I'm. I'm not the hon. Lady, sir. Right hon. Lady's diary. Secretary but perhaps they can get Secretary but perhaps they can get something moving soon. I think we probably should bring this to a close, but this does open a great many questions about how we fund the arts in this country. This would not be acceptable for the Barbican, for the Bridgewater Hall, for our other venues. We do make an exception for the Royal Albert Hall.

We shouldn't let it be the norm. And actually we should look more carefully about the kind of audiences that we create for the future. Through the National College for Arts and Music Education. So places like the Royal Albert Hall have that audience, and they don't become dependent on people having to pay huge amounts of money to see these huge names, but that people come to events like the Proms. They want to hear classical music that we don't currently have an adequate audience for at the moment, but we need the venues to be there for them to come.

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Shadow Minister. Thank you.

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Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker and very briefly. If we do divide today, I shall be supporting this bill primarily for the purpose and the reason you mentioned in your reason you mentioned in your introduction as well. Remember, today we are debating whether to reintroduce the bill, and if we do reintroduce the bill, and if we do so, there will be plenty of opportunity to debate at a at a later stage. And it would appear that several people do want to do just just that.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the other thing I should probably say, given that the debate has swayed a little bit into the details of the substance, I'm also one of the Ministers alongside my right hon. Friend who oversaw the implementation and execution of the Culture Recovery Fund, something I'm actually very proud of when we were in government. But I will indeed.

19:48

Nigel Huddleston MP (Droitwich and Evesham, Conservative)

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And I.

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Have a number of constituents who regularly go over 2 or 3 times a year anyway, to the Royal Albert a year anyway, to the Royal Albert Hall for for the events in this process of legislation and legalities that we're all referring to and both sides of the chamber, the one thing that must be permanent must be our constituents and those who buy the tickets and and those who buy the tickets and travel over 2 or 3 times a year from Northern Ireland.

Some of my constituents do that. Many others

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constituents do that. Many others from Northern Ireland do the same. Absolutely. The Royal Albert Hall is a vital part of our tourism ecosystem, our cultural history and our cultural offering. And therefore, my final comment is this, Madam Deputy Speaker, and probably an offer to the to the Minister opposite. I am one of the biggest supporters of arts, culture, heritage around and very proud to do so. But I do wonder sometimes whether we have such debates like this, whether it is truly appropriate in this day and age for us to discuss in this chamber when there are other demands on our time, the minutiae of internal dynamics, operations and rule changes in certain institutions which, when they were set up and established in other centuries, Parliament was the right vehicle to have such discussions.

But I do wonder whether that is the right vehicle now. And if the Minister wishes to discuss this, or indeed, the right hon. Lady or others about whether, once this has been resolved, there is a broader debate to be had about some of the ecclesiastical institutions, heritage institutions, academic institutions where Parliament still needs to arbitrate on what, in the end of the day, our internal operational decisions, whether that is an appropriate debate in this place, that is something I'd be happy to discuss with the Minister.

19:50

Rt Hon Ian Murray MP, The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Edinburgh South, Labour)

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Minister thank you, Madam. debate, which is clearly just about whether or not we revive this bill and not the internals of what the bill is about. Can I can also just bill is about. Can I can also just thank the right hon. Gentleman for Maldon for bringing the bill and for his contribution today. Can I also acknowledge the work of the Bill Committee in the last session in scrutinising the Bill, ensuring that it is proportionate, that meets the aims of the Hall, including making sure that the Hall's new ticket income declaration policy is sufficiently robust.

That is what is contained within the Bill. The shadow Minister raises a whole host of really interesting questions about whether or not institutions that were set up over 160 years ago should still go through this House with primary legislation. It is something I would be more than happy to discuss with him. I thought it would be more interested in reviving the Conservative Party around reviving this bill, but we could also do that in terms of these institutions, and it is worth acknowledging the contribution from my hon.

Friend from Islington South and Finsbury, because she is not alone. The Charity Commission itself. Several other commentators, many of which she mentioned, have long expressed the view that there is a strong conflict of interest in the majority of the Hall's trustees being stakeholders, because they are acting in their own financial interests instead of the charity's best interests, which is against the rules and regulations of the Charities Commission. The bill itself has drawn strong opposition in the other place for not tackling this conflict of interest, and it is disappointing that it has not tackled it.

For all the issues that have been raised this evening, the Charity Commission still maintains concerns that the bill does not fully address the long standing conflict of interest, especially the make up of board of trustees. Despite this new declaration of policy, the Hall's position is that it is willing to discuss concerns about other matters with interested parties, that these should not obstruct the passage of this bill and in the context of what the shadow Minister has said about having to bring primary legislation, perhaps it should be part of the bill.

I do understand that the bill will come back for Report stage and for Third Reading in this place, and I would encourage members, if they do have concerns, to bring those concerns back at that particular stage and bring amendments should they wish to to do so. I am not alone in bringing this criticism myself. Baroness Twycross, on the other place who took the Bill on behalf of the government, has expressed the same disappointment as did my predecessor, the Member for the Rhondda.

So there are a few institutions, though, Madam Deputy Speaker, that hold the distinctive place in British public life as the Royal Albert Hall, and it is a fitting to be discussing it in Parliament with the prom starting next month. Of course, I am sure many hon. Members, myself included, are looking forward to this time honoured event in the British cultural calendar. But I do say that this is just about reviving the Bill, and the provisions of the Royal Albert Hall Bill are not considered contrary to public policy.

I point my right hon. Friend the Member for Islington South and Finsbury to our ticket Levy Bill, which is in draft form and was announced in the King's Speech in terms of dealing with some of the practices of selling tickets at an extortionate price, have to give way.

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Very grateful to the Minister. I just. Wonder if you could confirm to the House something of a process point if this revival motion fails, can you confirm that the promoters can bring back another bill at a time that suits them, ideally, with

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time that suits them, ideally, with some of these issues resolved, that. Is indeed the case. The promoters can bring back a bill. In promoters can bring back a bill. In fact, as is also the contrary, the promoters can withdraw the bill at any at any point. The point I am any at any point. The point I am just about to make, though, is that because this is a private bill, the government takes it all with a neutral position on those bills, not withstanding amendments that do come from members in this House and from the other place, and therefore we will not be supporting or opposing the revival of this bill.

It is a matter for the House.

19:54

The question is, as on the Order >> The question is, as on the Order Paper, as many as are of that opinion say, are. I of the contrary? opinion say, are. I of the contrary?

19:55

Opposed Private Business: Royal Albert Hall Bill [Lords]: Revival: Division

20:07

>> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I beg to move the cross-party motion on NHS. >> Dentistry on the Order Paper.

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Dentistry on the Order Paper. Around 14 million, or 1 in 4 people, were unable to access NHS dental were unable to access NHS dental care in early 2025, 56% of children in Somerset did not see an NHS in Somerset did not see an NHS dentist in 2025. We are all seeing scenes that you'd expect to read in a Charles Dickens novel, not read a Charles Dickens novel, not read on the news, hear about from friends or if you're an MP, hear almost every day from constituencies.

I've heard from 15 parents directly that have taken their children to hospital recently with dental issues. One local told me that her 86 year old father was in so much pain that he pulled out his own teeth because he could not get dental treatment. I've heard from a military family and they can't get dentists either. A pregnant woman who cannot find an NHS dental treatment. Highlighting the scale of the problem, a local dental practice told me that every day they are taking on the very least 10 to 15 unplanned emergencies compared to 2 or 3 a few years ago.

It has gotten so bad that some locals are telling me it's cheaper, sometimes by hundreds of pounds, to fly to Spain and get dental treatment and a tan. Of

20:08

Adam Dance MP (Yeovil, Liberal Democrat)

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20:25

Yasmin Qureshi MP (Bolton South and Walkden, Labour)

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steps are just a sticking plaster on a wound that runs very deep. Madam Deputy Speaker, almost 14 million people in this country million people in this country could not access NHS dental care in early 2025. That's more than 1 in 4 early 2025. That's more than 1 in 4 adults in England and over three times as many as before the pandemic. These are not statistics. These are people in pain, people who cannot eat properly, people who are even embarrassed to smile.

The British Dental Association's research tells us that 41% of adults now have tooth decay levels that have not been seen since the 1990s, undoing decades of hard won progress in oral health. And the polling from Ipsos makes for truly shocking reading. For those who cannot get an NHS appointment, people across this country, as has been mentioned, have been forced to pull their own teeth out because they can't access NHS dentistry. And in one of the wealthiest nations in the world, that is just not acceptable.

How did we get here? Since 2010, the proportion of the NHS Budget spent on dentistry has more than halved, from 3.3% to just 1.5%, and that is the direct result of 14 years of the previous government, £1 billion gone and patient charges hike by over two thirds. The Health and Social Care Committee in 2023 branded the dental contract not fit for purpose. The Public Accounts Committee said the same, as did the Nuffield Nuffield Trust. And yet the previous government, for 1314 years did nothing about it.

The Tory government recovery plan was found by the National Audit Office to be off track. Now this government again has tried to do things. The new patient premium cost 88 million but produced no measurable improvement in access. And just last week, we learned that despite £20,000 Golden. Hello. Just two dentists in the Greater Manchester signed up to do NHS work. That tells you how broken our system is. But there is a specific injustice I want to refer to, which is brought to my attention by the Epilepsy Society.

Around 630 000 people in this country have epilepsy. A third have uncontrolled seizures. Falling without warning, often face first breaking their teeth again and again. And I talk of a case of Harriet, 29 years of age, who has six missing teeth, including her front teeth, top and bottom. She broke her NHS dentures three times in a single year, and her dentist now has refused to issue another set. She can barely speak clearly. She struggles to eat, and every time a seizure strikes, she faces a new bill for the damage she could not possibly prevent.

A broken arm caused by seizure is treated in hospital. A broken tooth caused by same seizure incurs significant expenditure. There is at the moment, no medical exemption for epilepsy related dental damages and they should be. So I urge the Minister to specifically look at this particular thing in the short term. Before you go into the big full dental contract. So what is the cost of fixing it and why do we need it? The British Dental Association estimated that it would take around £1.5 billion a year to restore NHS dentistry to universal service.

And although the Chancellor announced £29 billion for the NHS at the Spending Room review, I know that on that statement in this chamber, I did ask the Chancellor if any of that money could be set aside for dentistry. Sadly, it hasn't been and no additional money has been set for dentistry. Catching delay decay early is far cheaper than an emergency treatment. Prevention in children cost a fraction of what we spent fixing the damage in adults. A workforce that stays in the NHS is definitely cheaper than one that walks away.

We need a contract, a new contract that breaks decisively with the units of dental activity that prioritises prevention and makes energy density a place where talented professionals want to build their careers. The government has announced a public consultation for this summer, which is a great piece of news, but we need a timetable and a firm deadline for a new system in this Parliament. We cannot kick this into long grass again. 13 years of that was quite enough. So in conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker, as I said, I've been raising these issues for years, and I've sat in rooms with Ministers and I've heard warm words, but found nothing had changed.

I do believe this government is different. I believe the Minister is serious. As I said earlier, I've had many discussions with him and he has met the all party parliamentary group on dentistry and oral care quite a number of times. But this Stephen Timms must be matched by urgency, and the urgency must be matched by investment. The people of Bolton South and Walkden and people across this country deserve to see a dentist without waiting years, without pulling their own teeth. They deserve a government that will finally fix this.

So I urge the Minister to please urge the Chancellor and the Secretary of State for health to give this the

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utmost priority, and let's resolve this issue once and for all. Yes, sir. Ashley Fox Madam.

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Ashley Fox Madam. Deputy Speaker. This government was elected on a platform that included a dentistry platform that included a dentistry rescue plan. It correctly assessed that there is a crisis in NHS that there is a crisis in NHS dentistry and it promised to fix it. And nowhere is this crisis more felt than in the rural areas across felt than in the rural areas across the country. Nearly two years on from the general election, I consulted residents across my constituency in a survey to ask about the health care issues that mattered to them.

Almost everyone who replied mentioned the state of NHS dentistry and the lack of provision across Somerset. If the government wants to show genuine support for rural communities as it claims it does, then it can no longer ignore those voices calling

20:32

Sir Ashley Fox MP (Bridgwater, Conservative)

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for action but ignore them. The Minister does, because when I asked Minister does, because when I asked the Minister on the floor of this House what steps he was taking to increase the number of dentists increase the number of dentists accessible to rural communities, he directed me to watch my postbox, to be furnished with the numbers of how many more appointments have how many more appointments have been provided in my constituency. Well, I did wait, and then I waited some more and no response came.

And eventually, having chased the Spad, standing outside this chamber and threatening a point of order for the minister's reply, I did get a response and then it became clear why his department had been so reticent, because the numbers revealed that 4% fewer NHS dental treatments had been delivered in the first seven months of this financial year, compared to the same period before the general election. This government is too busy patting itself on the back to notice the dire reality of NHS dental provision across Somerset and other rural counties for meaningful change to be felt by my constituents and patients across the country.

Reform of the system needs to start being treated as a priority. Access to quality NHS dental care should be available to all, not just in those in urban labour constituencies. Families in Somerset should not need to travel miles for basic care paying fees they cannot afford, or worse still going without treatment altogether. Polling for Ipsos last year revealed that when people cannot secure a dental treatment, a quarter will resort to at home DIY solutions. And that is not simply acceptable in a modern health service.

Now, before those on the government benches leap to their feet to start with interventions beginning 14 years. ET cetera. ET cetera. Which we hear every sitting day, I have to acknowledge that this problem did not start in July 2020 four. Previous governments, including previous conservative governments, did not do enough to fix the problem. The last government did take steps, including an uprating of NHS dental unit pricing. But there is far more that needs to be done to address the deeper structural issues in the system.

Contract reform, fundamentally, is what we need to see. I'm encouraged that Ministers seem to agree, but on this issue, this government's intervention follows a familiar pattern. Instead of taking action, they are launching a consultation. So this government and this Minister has been in office for two years. And you might have thought that by now they might have worked out what it is they want to do to improve the system. So if the Minister is going to consult, I very much hope it is on the basis of a well thought through plan and that it isn't being used as another delaying tactic.

And I hope in particular, that he will consider how we can strengthen the dental workforce in rural areas, something I have raised previously with the Minister is how we can train more dentists locally. Clinicians who train in a community are more likely to stay and practice their. In Bridgwater, discussions took place with Bridgwater and Taunton College on the potential for partnerships such as with the University of Bristol Dental Hospital to deliver local training pathways. Could student dentists do some of their practice within rural communities? It might encourage them to work there afterwards, and the Minister asked me to write to him about that, and I did, and I got a whole load of platitudes back, but regrettably, no action taken.

This I'm happy to

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give way. I thank the hon. Member for giving way. Would he agree with me that the National Golden Hello that the National Golden Hello scheme to attract and retain NHS dentists is just not working? Only four out of 19 posts in Devon have four out of 19 posts in Devon have been filled, and fresh dental practice in Dartmouth will end the practice in Dartmouth will end the provision of NHS dental services at the end of June. No longer providing NHS care. The last dentist in the town and they said that they tried to recruit for years, but they can't fill the positions.

It has become increasingly difficult to maintain the NHS contract in a sustainable way, they said.

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I thank the hon. Lady for her point. I think golden hellos are a useful tool, but they're not a useful tool, but they're not a sufficient tool and I think reform of the contract is fundamentally what we need. And one would hope what we need. And one would hope that after two years in his place, the Minister would have developed an idea of what to take forward, an idea of what to take forward, because I believe that these local partnerships are exactly the sort of solution that could make a real of solution that could make a real difference to areas like Bridgwater.

More broadly, the government must ensure that the NHS dentistry is a viable and attractive career. This means continuing to look at how procedures are valued, whether payments properly reflect the work involved and how we can encourage dentists not just to enter the NHS, but to remain in it. This House has already identified the problem and we have talked about reform, but now we need to deliver results to those in need. My residents across the Bridgwater constituency do not want another consultation that drags on for months without anything changing.

Minister they want an appointment with a dentist, and I urge the Minister to do all he can to deliver upon that as quickly as possible.

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He. And with an immediate four minute time limit. Alison Hume

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minute time limit. Alison Hume thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Imagine being 81 years old, blind, and waking up with a blind, and waking up with a terrible toothache, and then imagine having no car and no local imagine having no car and no local dentist to turn to. This was the reality for John, one of my constituents in Scarborough and constituents in Scarborough and Whitby. His story is unfolding at a time when we're seeing a much needed and welcome shift in how our country tackles dental care.

After years of the system being left to decay, we are finally seeing real funding, new incentives to recruit dentists and a genuine, sincere

20:39

Alison Hume MP (Scarborough and Whitby, Labour)

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effort to rescue NHS dentistry. Last year, this Labour government

20:39

Sir Ashley Fox MP (Bridgwater, Conservative)

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Last year, this Labour government invested around £3.7 billion on primary care dentistry. Madam

20:39

Alison Hume MP (Scarborough and Whitby, Labour)

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primary care dentistry. Madam Deputy Speaker, we are starting to make a real difference to people's lives. Just look at another of my constituents, Margaret. She was so grateful for the recent changes that she sat down and wrote a that she sat down and wrote a letter to the Minister for care. After suffering from a debilitating toothache which had threatened to leave her housebound. The government's new emergency appointments meant she was able to get her tooth extracted at short notice. Madam Deputy Speaker, the true test of our reforms is whether they reach everyone, and Margaret's story shows that they haven't.

The reason Margaret needed that emergency help was because her regular NHS dentist went private. Last week I called 13 dental practices in my constituency. Only one in Whitby is taking on adults on the NHS, but only to those with a Whitby postcode. No dental practice in Scarborough is taking on adults under the NHS and going back to John because he couldn't find an NHS dentist in Scarborough. He had to go private for an emergency extraction and was hit with a £280 bill.

This isn't just an exorbitant fee, it's a breaking point. If you are blind and can't drive, an emergency appointment in a nearby town isn't of much use. We cannot judge success on national averages. While people in coastal communities such as Scarborough and Whitby feel stranded in Scarborough, we've seen practice after practice going 100% private and handing back their NHS contracts to constituents of mine who moved to Scarborough were appalled to find that not a single dental practice was taking

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NHS patients. 1 or 2 practices offered. I will give way. I'm grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way, and she and I know that our constituencies are somewhat similar. So my constituency of Carlisle. Currently constituency of Carlisle. Currently my constituents have to travel 12 miles to find a dentist dental practice that's taking patients. practice that's taking patients. That is an improvement. However, last year they had to go to Yorkshire to find an NHS practice Yorkshire to find an NHS practice that was taking on new, new patients.

Does she agree with me that the steps this government are taking to rebuild NHS dentistry very much need to be focussed on our rural and coastal communities, like our two constituencies.

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I thank my hon. Friend for intervention and she is right. I hope that in his concluding remarks, hope that in his concluding remarks, the Minister can address the challenges faced by rural and coastal communities. And going back coastal communities. And going back to my constituents. Madam Deputy Speaker, who were told that they could be put on a waiting list. could be put on a waiting list. Unfortunately, the waiting lists were ten years and at age 80 and 77, they didn't think it was likely they didn't think it was likely they'd even get to the top.

My constituency of Scarborough and Whitby is a dental desert, and I'm worried about all my constituents not having access to an NHS dentist, but particularly those with disabilities like John, because people can attend any dental practice, and dental practice can choose who to deliver care to. This means that Integrated Care Boards can't decide who dentists see under their core contract, and this makes it really difficult for ICBs to target access at particular patient groups. And I know that the Minister has worked tirelessly to deliver on our manifesto commitments, and there are further improvements coming.

And whilst I applaud the progress made so far, please can I ask my hon. Friend, on behalf of my constituents in Scarborough and Whitby, what specific targeted action is being taken to address the complete lack of access to NHS dentistry in coastal towns like Scarborough? And what about people like John and others with disabilities, but who do not receive the benefits which passport them to free NHS care? We've made huge progress in getting children access to NHS dentistry, is it not now time to target access

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to patients with disabilities? I call Charlotte Cane. Thank you,

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Madam Deputy Speaker. Almost half of the children in Cambridgeshire have not seen a dentist in the last 12 months. There'll be many impacts of that. We can only imagine. But one of We can only imagine. But one of them is that one in every eight children in East Cambridgeshire children in East Cambridgeshire have tooth decay. By the time they're five. That should be utterly unacceptable to all of us. In short, Ely and East Cambridgeshire is an NHS dental desert.

Now we've heard people on the other side make valiant attempts to blame almost anybody else. They can for this. But it was a Labour government in 2006 who introduced the new dentist contract. Despite lots of people warning that it would lead to dentists leaving the NHS. And indeed that is exactly

20:44

Charlotte Cane MP (Ely and East Cambridgeshire, Liberal Democrat)

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what we have seen. They have left in droves in Cambridgeshire and in droves in Cambridgeshire and Peterborough we have a 24%, almost 1 in 4 for NHS general dentists, but even more frustratingly, I've heard from dentists locally who are willing and able to take on more NHS patients and they've contacted the ICB and asked for the funding to do that, and they've been refused it. So I have constituents who cannot get an NHS dentist appointment.

I have dentists who are willing to give them an NHS dentist appointment, but nobody seems willing to give them the

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money so that that can happen. I will again. I think she's.

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I think she's. Making an excellent point and I and I suspect that the ICB in that situation is finding that its situation is finding that its Budget is overstretched on that basis. And in the spirit of not being partisan, would she agree to welcome the investment that this government is putting into the NHS

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that the Liberal Democrats oppose? I welcome investment in NHS dentistry, but all of it is just playing around at the edges. Unless and until we change that contract, because it's that contract which is at fault. I understand the Minister said that he would consult on that in the summer. We're already partway through June. Could we please have a date for when that consultation is going to happen? And could we also have a commitment to implement changes to the contract so that it is more attractive and we get dentists back into the NHS? And can we also have a commitment to when we're going to have a workforce plan for dentistry, so that I no longer have in my area 1 in 4 vacancies for NHS dentists?

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Yes. I call Amanda Hack. Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker.

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I thank the hon. Members for Yeovil, Sunderland Central, Waveney Valley and Farnham and Bordon for giving us this opportunity to giving us this opportunity to discuss dentistry. The situation of access to a dentist isn't new. From 2007 to 2014, I managed the Braunston Health and Social Care Centre in my right. Hon. Friend's Centre in my right. Hon. Friend's constituency of Leicester West. The centre was designed to bring NHS organisations together, including space for dentists and an opticians. However, trying to attract NHS dentists and opticians to work in the centre was unsuccessful and those were.

Those spaces were repurposed for other NHS services. Flash forward to today and I've been working with Fiona Ellwood, a constituent and an associate professor and director of dental education at the University of

20:47

Amanda Hack MP (North West Leicestershire, Labour)

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Lincoln, on how we tackle the NHS dentistry issue head on. Fiona and I have been working together on a I have been working together on a proposal of how we can utilise the workforce we already have, which she shared, with which I shared she shared, with which I shared with the Minister a few weeks ago, and we would welcome a meeting with the Minister to discuss this further. As of last month, there further. As of last month, there were just shy of 70,000 dental nurses and around 47,000 dentists, nurses and around 47,000 dentists, which I'm pleased to see represent a workforce expansion of over 5% under this government.

However, despite seven distinct professional groups making up the dental team, dentists remain overstretched because patients are funnelled to them for almost everything. Even cases that train dental nurses, dental hygienists or dental therapists could safely handle. NHS data confirms that dental therapists and hygienists delivers just 5% of total service activity, a baseline that has stagnated for years, trapping dentists under a mountain of work while the entire workforce, if utilised, could make systematic improvements to dental care. Just imagine if the appointments that could be released if we just use the current workforce in a different way.

The current situation is inefficient and expensive, and it's driving dentists out of the NHS. While 13 million people across the country are left without a completely unmet need for NHS dentistry. My constituency of North West Leicestershire already has the second lowest unit of dental activity in Leicester, Leicestershire and Rutland and 14 contract terminations between February 2021 and July 24th, and one practice was termed terminated in Ashby in my constituency. We don't have a lack of talent. We have a failure of deployment.

Dental therapists can do over 70% of routine primary care. Why don't we use that that service that we have? There are clear benefits if we realise the whole dental dentistry workforce being based on skills and experience, rather than what a dentist cannot and can do. Dental nurses also have the greatest capacity to take on intervention and preventative work, and work flexibly. With the agility within community and neighbourhood settings. There are also many already oral health practitioners in their own right. I'm also greatly pleased to see a training centre in Lincolnshire offer courses in dental hygiene and therapy will open in 2026.

It will accept around 30 students in its first year and will teach a new BSc in dental hygiene and therapy, alongside a foundational course designed to help dental nurses and other healthcare professionals retrain and reskill. As many will know, the Minister. The Minister will also no doubt be. Be aware the 2009 Steele Review of NHS dentistry proposed a tiered model of care matching patients to the right professional professionals at the right time, with prevention at its core. It was never fully realised.

Maybe it's time to dust it off. A genuinely tiered NHS dental service was cut waiting list free up dentists to focus on complex care and make better use of dental nurses and dental therapists, the jobs they already trained to do and can already do. Most importantly, we should shift the system towards prevention, not crisis management, which I know is a core priority of the department.

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I call Gregory Stafford. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I want to thank Deputy Speaker, and I want to thank my fellow sponsors of this debate, the hon. Members for Yeovil, Waveney Valley and Sunderland Central, who I don't believe is in Central, who I don't believe is in his place. Oral health is fundamental to dignity, confidence, employability and overall health. The ability to see a dentist when needed should never be treated as a luxury within a universal health care system.

Yet that is precisely care system. Yet that is precisely what has happened, and the consequences of that are not abstract. They are real, painful and increasingly visible. Tooth decay remains the leading cause of hospital admissions for children aged 5 to 9, though clearly poor parenting holds a lot of blame for that. A growing number of people are turning to so-called DIY dentistry because they have no other option. And, Madam Deputy Speaker, that alone should give this House pause for thought. We must also be clear about what is driving this.

It is often said that this is a simply a workforce problem, but that is only part of the truth. As the Policy Exchange report Pulling Teeth sets out, there are over 37,000 dentists in England, yet only around 10,500 full time equivalent NHS dentists. That is not a shortage of dentists. It's the shortage of dentists contract.

20:51

Gregory Stafford MP (Farnham and Bordon, Conservative)

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My hon. Friend.

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Does my hon. Friend agree that the British Dental Association, who the British Dental Association, who have supplied an excellent briefing to many honourable and right hon. Members for this debate, are in no Members for this debate, are in no doubt at all that it is precisely doubt at all that it is precisely that contract from 2006 that lies at the heart of this problem, and at the heart of this problem, and they state that what they really want from this debate is two things.

One is a clear timetable from the government as to when they will start to renegotiate that contract. And the other is a firm deadline for the rollout of the system. A new system in this parliament. Those are the two things that we've been invited to press the Minister

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to deliver at the end of this debate. Well, my right hon. Friend is precisely accurate, and I think the two calls from the BDA are absolutely right, and is what this government should be working to. Because, as my hon. Right hon. Friend has said, this is a contract that started in 2006 under the last that started in 2006 under the last Labour government. It was based on units of dental activity, and it is fundamentally misaligned with fundamentally misaligned with clinical reality.

So, for example, it pays the same whether a dentist does one filling or six. Essentially it rewards volume, not complexity, and it actively discourages preventative care. Now, of course, we also had Covid, and we have to remember that before Covid, around 4 million adults already struggled to access dental care. That figure has now risen to nearly 14 million. Of course, Covid didn't create this crisis alone, but it did significantly accelerate and expose it. And we are still dealing with that aftermath now. This government came in promising action, yet two nearly two years on, the gap between promise and reality is difficult to ignore.

The rollout of additional appointments appointments was delayed, and even where delivered, the British Dental Association has noted they amount to only around two extra urgent slots per dentist per month. That's not transformational, it's marginal adjustment and at the same time, as has been mentioned, the long promised NHS workforce plan remains unpublished. The ambition to expand access depends entirely on having enough clinicians willing and able to deliver NHS care, so without a credible workforce strategy, the objectives of reform remain difficult to assess, let alone achieve.

And that pressure, as my hon. Friend for my hon. Friend mentioned, is not evenly distributed in parts of rural England. There are a few as ten NHS dental practices per 100,000 people. These so-called dental deserts are not random. They are the predictable outcome of a system that fails to align funding with need. I will.

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Thank my friend from Giving way, and he mentions rural communities and the dental deserts that there and the dental deserts that there are. I represent a constituency, Fylde, which is split between rural and coastal, and those coastal and coastal, and those coastal areas are experiencing those same dental deserts. And I agree with dental deserts. And I agree with him that the dental contract is at the root cause of this. And what we want to see from the Minister is a commitment to review that.

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commitment to review that. Well, my hon. Friend from Fylde hits the nail on the head. And like in so many cases in health care, rural constituencies and rural and coastal constituencies are often the one hit ones, the hit the hardest. And actually it's where the government should be spending, in my view, its efforts and its money, in order to ensure that we do get the same level of service as you would get in a large urban population centre. And that brings me neatly on to my own constituency, where the consequences are very real.

One family contacted me about their daughter, who lives with a long term eating disorder and developed a serious dental infection. Despite seeking help, they faced delays, long waiting lists and limited access to specialist care, with treatment stretching close to a year. Another constituent raised the case of his wife, a head and neck cancer patient, following chemotherapy, radiotherapy and surgery. She now faces severe and ongoing oral health complications. Yet access to appropriate NHS dental follow up has been extremely limited, forcing reliance on expensive private care.

And these are not isolated cases, Madam Deputy Speaker, they are emblematic of a system failing those who need it most. We must also recognise the financial and operational pressures facing dental practices themselves. Rising national insurance contributions, increased wage costs and high levels of missed appointments all add further strain in some practices. Missed appointments alone cost tens of thousands of pounds a year and unfortunately, in Hazelmere in my constituency, I have a fully equipped dental suite in the local hospital, entirely unused despite clear local demand.

That's not inefficiency. Mental change won't fix this. We need a credible workforce plan, genuine contact, contract reform that rewards prevention and a strategy for dental deserts that goes beyond short term fixes. We need a system that aligns capacity with need, rather than relying on historical allocations drawn up nearly two decades ago. There are also more fundamental proposals on the table, including models that would extend coverage and give patients greater choice and control. Now, whether every or whether or not every element of that is agreed by this House, what is clear is that the status quo is failing too many people for us to simply continue as we are.

So I ask the Minister, who I have a lot of respect for, although I'm not entirely sure it's mutually, mutually given. When will we fully see a fully funded and credible NHS dental workforce plan? How many additional dentists, hygienists and therapists are actually required to meet demand? And what is the government's plan to ensure that dental deserts do not become a permanent feature of our healthcare system? Because, Madam Deputy Speaker, unless we answer those questions honestly, the government is not reforming NHS

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dentistry, it's supervising its managed decline. UDA.

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UDA. Deputy. Speaker, and I'm grateful to the backbench Business Committee for backbench Business Committee for granting this debate. And I'd like to declare an interest as co-chair to declare an interest as co-chair of the APPG for dentistry and Oral health, and I pay tribute to the British Dental Association, our British Dental Association, our secretariat, for the work they continue to undertake to keep NHS dentistry in the spotlight. Now, due to my APPG role, I hear regularly from patients and dental professionals across the country and the message that I hear nationally is echoed by my constituents in Durham.

NHS dentistry is becoming harder to access and the current system is not delivering the practical care patients need. We need measures to act to. We need to measure access properly. Ministers should publish

20:58

Mary Kelly Foy MP (City of Durham, Labour)

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local data showing which practices are accepting new NHS patients. How are accepting new NHS patients. How many NHS clinical hours are being delivered, whether urgent care is being completed, how many children being completed, how many children are being seen and whether disease is being stabilised rather than left to worsen. And one issue raised with me is NHS Business Services Authority reporting and Services Authority reporting and payments. A recent system. Changes have led to incorrect payments being made and it being made harder for practices to calculate associate dentists pay and for practices already operating under serious financial pressure.

That creates yet more uncertainty. Another issue is UDA caps. One local dentist described practice with a chair, the associate dentist and the patient ready to go, but no additional UDA is available. The associate was left, in their words, twiddling his thumbs while patients were turned away or offered private care. And I also heard from award winning ClearPath dental surgery and one of the last remaining NHS dentists in Durham City. The practice manager said they've witnessed first hand the steady destruction of NHS dental services over the last 20 years by successive governments that have used the demolition of NHS dentistry as a way of saving money in the NHS and as part of cost cutting.

Their contract was reduced by 2000 exams in April and during an attempted appeal, the practice was told to accept the change or lose the whole contract. So I asked the Minister, how does cutting contracts like that improve access for patients? And the government's recent steps are welcome, including urgent care changes and the beginning of wider reform discussions. But tweaks to the existing system cannot become a substitute for fundamental reform. We need a clear timetable for formal negotiations on a new dental contract, a deadline for replacing UDAs in this parliament and proper funding so practices don't lose money for providing NHS treatment.

And the challenge before us is to build a system that allows dentists who want to provide NHS care to do so, and ensure patients can access that care. The measure of a health care system is not how well it serves those who can afford alternatives, but how it protects those who cannot. We must stop treating the collapse of NHS dentistry as inevitable. A generation has grown up with pain, fear and preventable disease. We know the problems. We know the

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solutions. What we need now is action. Yeah, yeah. Adrian Ramsay thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker.

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Deputy Speaker. It's a pleasure to be co-sponsoring this debate today in my constituency of Waveney Valley, registering with an NHS dentist as a new patient has become extremely a new patient has become extremely difficult, if not impossible. East of England has the lowest number of NHS full time equivalent dentists NHS full time equivalent dentists per head of population. So when Ministers say the system is improving, I asked them to picture the reality for patients in rural communities people travelling miles, sometimes hours for appointments, bringing dozens of practices without success and waiting until pain becomes unbearable before seeking urgent care.

Leanne, from Halesworth, told me it took three years to find an NHS dentist. While her children still cannot access NHS care, another constituent, Michael, from Dickleburgh, spent more than £2,000 on private treatment after being unable to access NHS treatment. Ministers have admitted that NHS dentistry currently only has enough Budget to see fewer than 40% of adults over a two year period. The principle that an NHS service should be available to everyone is in tatters when it comes to dentistry, the government has emphasised urgent appointments,

21:02

Adrian Ramsay MP (Waveney Valley, Green Party)

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but without additional workforce and funding there would be fewer routine appointments, undermining the government's own prevention the government's own prevention agenda. The British Dental Association estimates that NHS Association estimates that NHS dental budgets have been cut by a third in real terms since 2010, third in real terms since 2010, reducing the allocation to 1.5% of the overall NHS Budget. Further funding will clearly be needed to funding will clearly be needed to restore NHS dentistry as a universal service. Yet when the Chancellor announced 29 billion of additional NHS funding in the spending review, the Minister indicated that none of this would likely be allocated to dental services.

Delayed routine care leads to greater pain, more complex treatment and higher costs for both the patient and the NHS. And nowhere is this clearer than in children's oral health. Tooth decay is the leading cause of hospital admission among 5 to 9 year olds in England. A totally shocking fact, Madam Deputy Speaker Dentists don't grow on trees, and I'm delighted that, following many conversations, the University of East Anglia will begin training students from 2027. But the truth is that at UEA and nationally, not enough funded places are being provided.

The previous government promised a 40% increase in dental training places, but no funding was attached either. For those for training those additional clinicians or for commissioning the NHS dentistry workforce they would eventually join. The current government has

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announced further expansion of dental school places, which I inadequate. On that point.

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On that point. The hon. Member give way? Yes, certainly. Does the hon. Member agree with me being a rural constituency as me being a rural constituency as well as mine, that it affects us a lot worse than rural areas because we don't have the universities

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close by to train the dentist. I absolutely agree with the hon. Member for Yeovil, who made an excellent speech in introducing excellent speech in introducing this debate. Rural communities lose out so often when it comes to health services and the decline they've seen, and dentistry is a strong, worrying example of that. Unless NHS dentistry becomes a place where clinicians can build sustainable careers, new graduates will continue drifting away from NHS practice. If NHS work is too costly for dental practices to deliver, we should not be surprised when surgeries replace NHS service with private care.

The government must pursue contract reform and ensure dentists are funded for the work they do, with a strong emphasis on prevention. The crisis in NHS dentistry will continue to deepen if immediate action is not taken. The government. If the government is serious about targeting dental deserts, East Anglia should be one of the first in line. I asked the Minister to do four things commit the funding that's needed to restore dental services, support innovative therapists, training models such as Suffolk's review and reform NHS dental contracts as promised, and commit to boost the dental places

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in our region that we have lacked for decades. Jayne Kirkham thank you, Madam

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Jayne Kirkham thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Member for Yeovil and others for securing this important debate. securing this important debate. Cornwall is a dental desert. Healthwatch Cornwall's 2024 report found that every single NHS found that every single NHS practice was closed to new adult patients. In Cornwall. Under 30% of adults have seen a dentist in the adults have seen a dentist in the last two years. Across England, that figure is 40.7%. That's a stark reflection of the regional inequality and access to basic health care.

At the same time, the number of dentists in Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly has fallen dramatically, from 285 in the year 19 to 20 to just 221 in 20 4 to 25. And since 2010, the proportion of NHS Budget spent on dentistry has more than halved. But at best, of course, NHS dentistry only ever covered about half the population. Cornwall is rural and coastal, and like many such areas in the southwest, we face real challenges attracting and keeping dental professionals.

Two years ago, more dental nurses left the workforce

21:06

Jayne Kirkham MP (Truro and Falmouth, Labour )

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than joined in every NHS region in the southwest. For every nurse that the southwest. For every nurse that joined, two left, every dental practice in Cornwall reports recruitment difficulties for all recruitment difficulties for all staff and morale amongst NHS dentists is in is at a low, with more than 6 in 10 in England saying more than 6 in 10 in England saying they're thinking of leaving NHS dentistry. We need to make the NHS a place that dental staff would a place that dental staff would choose to build a career.

The golden hello scheme is a start. Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly. ICB has invested 180 800 0 in 11 posts across the area. It's also crucial that we train more dentists. Recently I visited the Peninsula Dental School at Treliske in Truro, which is part of the University of Plymouth. Fourth year dental students train in Truro and offer free dental care. They provide essential treatment as well as community outreach to more than 30 local groups. This is exactly the type of model we need, and the school does want to expand its intake from 58 to 72 students per year to meet demand and bring the region in line with the national average.

If we train more dentists in Cornwall, we stand a better chance of keeping them here. The government is expanding dental school places, which is brilliant with 650 extra dentists. Please include Peninsula. In the next wave there's recognition. The current contract is flawed. It is based on UDAs, which effectively cap how many patients dentists can see. If dentists exceed the cap. They aren't paid for it. If they Under-deliver money's clawed back. And in Cornwall, I think around only two thirds of udas are delivered, which leads over, which leads to sometimes millions of pounds being clawed back, money that could be used to treat patients.

The money has historically been paid monthly in advance to practices, then unused money hasn't been repaid in some cases till the end of the year, which has made it hard to divert it to other uses. Cornwall's ICB have introduced an incentive scheme to encourage practices to hit a certain percentage of their target, so less money needs to be returned. The government have, of course, introduced reforms to the contract from April 26th. There will be a level of urgent care at an improved rate and a new care pathway for higher needs patients for more clinically complex cases.

Finally, I want to talk about some of the schemes that are already in place to tackle the acute dental need in Cornwall. Since July last year, there has been a dental dental van run with Smile Together, delivering care for our veterans and fishing community and patients who've been waiting for urgent treatment, and the government's scheme for brushing in schools has already reached up to three quarters of the schools in Cornwall. There are up to six new dental practices due to open in Cornwall soon.

With the clawback funding. This won't all fix everything overnight, but there is positive reform. I will make sure these changes are felt in Cornwall because everyone deserves access to dentistry where it's needed.

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Yeah. And with an immediate three minute time limit. Richard Foord thank you, Madam.

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Richard Foord thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker and I'd like to pay credit to the hon. Member for for Yeovil for working with the for Yeovil for working with the backbench Business Committee to secure the debate, because he knows that the South West is the worst that the South West is the worst affected region for NHS dentistry. According to NHS data from March According to NHS data from March 2025, fewer than 1 in 3 adults in the South west had seen a dentist in the previous two years.

That's the lowest rate of any region, and a full 14 percentage points below a north east or the north west of England. And what happens when people can't access a dentist? They end up in an acute hospital in 2020 324, one in every 460 people in the South West went to accident and emergency for dental problem. That's almost twice as common as in London, where the figure was one in every 860. The South West has the

21:10

Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)

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highest vacancy rate for NHS dentists in the country at 22%, and dentists in the country at 22%, and it also has one of the lowest ratios of full time dentists per head of population. And despite the government pledges and dental plans, little has changed on the ground. little has changed on the ground. In 2025, just 38% of adults in Devon had been seen by a dentist in Devon had been seen by a dentist in the previous two years, down from 54% a decade ago.

And in 2025, only 47% of children in the county had seen a dentist in the previous 12 months, down from 61% a decade ago. Those who can't afford private dental treatment are often left with no choice but to let their children go without care for years, we must move towards a preventative model of dentistry. Affordable routine Check-ups can catch problems early, saving the NHS from the greater cost of emergency care later. I want to give the example of Ken from Northleigh.

Ken is a pensioner. He has dentures that no longer fit and with no NHS dentists accepting patients in our area, he went to a local private dentist. They told him it would cost £800 to prepare his mouth, and a further £3,000 to invoice him for the new dentures. Ken's lucky he has savings. He can afford to pay for this, but how? How can anybody on the State Pension ever afford such a price? The last conservative government proposed targeted recruitment incentives.

Golden hellos. But the local democracy reporter Bradley Gerrard discovered that only one had been taken up in Devon in November 2024. So let's properly fund training, properly fund the retention of dental professionals. No one should be ending up in A&E because they can't get seen by a dentist. The government says it's serious about fixing the system. Let's see it on the ground in our constituencies. Thank you.

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Doctor Peter Prinsley. Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker. evening.

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evening. Is quite simple. Are we prepared to rebuild NHS dentistry as a genuine public service? Yes. Now, my constituents and people across the country and people across the country demand and deserve NHS dental services that are accessible and services that are accessible and available. I'd like to commend the campaign to police in Suffolk who have been tireless advocates, and many of my parliamentary colleagues here this evening who've spoken about their very own dental deserts. Now, families should not have to choose between going private and

21:13

Peter Prinsley MP (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket, Labour)

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going without English teeth. That's what the Americans talk about. what the Americans talk about. Wonky and yellow, a myth that was dispelled. But sadly, returning children admitted to hospital with dental abscess and decay. Once rare, now familiar. Before the election, I spoke of the decay of the I spoke of the decay of the nation's teeth as a metaphor for the decay of the nation. What an the decay of the nation. What an outrage. Now NHS dentistry disappeared in plain sight. When the contracts were changed, the dentists simply switched the practice to private and informed their patients.

Not really a choice. This happened to me and many other members, I expect now. I was an EMT surgeon in the NHS. I was paid to work at the hospital, not per case, but as part of a team tasked to provide a service to the population. The incentive was to work hard and to benefit the greatest number of patients. Nobody ever said to me that I could switch all my patients to strictly private operations in the hospital and charge a fee per case.

Yet this is what happened to NHS dentists. And surprise, surprise, private practice became very popular. Now there are plenty of dentists. Although it is true we could do with more. I welcome the new dental school at the UEA and commend the Vice Chancellor and his team for the work on this. I welcome the plans to increase the number of overseas dentists by increasing the General Dental Council qualifying exam for. There are many dentists who would like to work here. I also welcome the emergency dental appointments now widely available using the underspend in the NHS dental contract, provide sessional dental appointments and I definitely welcome the emphasis on prevention and the toothbrush campaigns.

That I will.

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I thank my fellow member from Suffolk for giving way, and he'll be aware that the University of be aware that the University of Suffolk is running training for dental therapists and hygienists, a really important part of the jigsaw. But the funding model is broken because training a therapist only because training a therapist only receives a £5,000 support per year, compared with 36,000 for dental compared with 36,000 for dental students. So does he agree that that disparity needs to be addressed?

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I thank my neighbour for his intervention, and I do agree that there is much that dental there is much that dental hygienists, dental nurses can do, especially in the role of check up especially in the role of check up type work. Now, as I say, there are many positive steps and I commend our excellent Minister for our excellent Minister for everything he has done. But what is urgently needed is the new contract and incentives and rewards for NHS dentistry.

This debate this evening is to ask the government when this will happen, and what are the barriers preventing this, for the teeth of the nation are depending

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on it, yes. Gideon Amos thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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I congratulate my neighbour and hon. Friend, the Member for Yeovil for securing this important debate and for all the campaigning that he and for all the campaigning that he does. I began my campaign in my part of Somerset Dentistry Desert part of Somerset Dentistry Desert in 2021, when I wasn't an MP, and my survey found that just over just under half had access to an NHS under half had access to an NHS dentist. When I again surveyed both in 2000 survey 2000 people last year, things have got worse.

Only 35% of children in Taunton and Wellington were able to access the NHS dentists. Since 2015, the House of Commons Library has pointed out that the last government cut

21:16

Gideon Amos MP (Taunton and Wellington, Liberal Democrat)

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funding for NHS dental services by six in real terms. So I want to start by welcoming some good news start by welcoming some good news in response to all this. Thanks to this kind of campaigning and by many others, my hon. Friends from Yeovil and I can confirm the news from NHS Somerset, published today, that 10,000 more units of dental that 10,000 more units of dental activity were delivered in the county in the last year than in 2425, and let's hope for more improvement as this current financial year progresses.

That's in addition to the privilege I had of cutting the ribbon at Wellington's new NHS dental practice in October, and I thank the Minister for the work he does. I know his commitment to this is genuine, and I'd like to thank dentistry for you team, all those NHS locally because they're achieving this against a background of limited resources and a broken

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funding system. I will. Thank greatly. For giving way. And the Member

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For giving way. And the Member for Yeovil for introducing this debate. I welcome the fact that the government has decided to tie in dental, newly qualified dentists so that they actually work in the NHS that they actually work in the NHS for three years. But I wondered whether the hon. Member would agree with me that since this only starts with me that since this only starts next year and the crisis is now, that actually we should be starting

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this in September 26th, not waiting until September 27th. My hon. Friend and near

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My hon. Friend and near neighbour is also often exactly right and I completely agree. right and I completely agree. Urgency is needed both in the the training of the new dentists and also in the contract changes which also in the contract changes which I'll come to one sentence. However, in NHS Somerset's recent announcement stands out. It says announcement stands out. It says there is insufficient funding to provide NHS dental care for the entire population and that resources are only available to expect.

Only available are only expected to support around half the county's residents. That means 64000 children in the county did not see a dentist at all last year, putting Somerset in the worst hit 5%. And in Taunton and Wellington, it's even worse than the average half spreads. Hard pressed parents responded to my survey to record that they are paying £100 per year per child because they can't access NHS dentists. That grows up to £4 million spent by parents in my constituency in the last five years in the cost of living crisis.

Madam Deputy Speaker that clearly is unacceptable. Increasingly, I. And they believe we should be prioritising children for NHS appointments, and I urge the government to consider that in its reforms. However, it is the contract, as Eddie Crouch and all the brilliant work he does with the British Dental Association that is at fault has shown and. But longer term, the key to resolving this is prevention and. In April I became an ambassador for the Magic Dentist, a charity which brings together local primary schools with local dental practices.

It's a model they're trying to roll out across the country, and I'd like to credit their hard work, including founder Nicky Rowland and trustee Councillor George Weston on yet another primary school, alongside Holy Trinity and Taunton, finding a partner in local dental practice. Today's dental, led by Rob Paxman, as well as thanking Charlie McEwen of WPA Foundation. Beginning with prevention, where it works with children is exactly what we need to do. The Liberal Democrats are clear about what is needed scrap UDAs and reform the dental contract.

A fair share of the 29 billion for NHS dentistry and a proper workforce plan. Until then, charities will continue to have to pick up the

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pieces. Sam Rushworth thank. You, Madam Deputy Speaker. It's 9:20. I've waited all day to be able to say what I'm going to say in three minutes. I can't give the speech I wanted to, but I had to come to speak up on behalf of my constituents in Bishop Auckland, and particularly those at the West and particularly those at the West Auckland dental practice, who have just been told that they can no longer have NHS dentistry. If I longer have NHS dentistry.

If I could take us back three years, we saw two dental practices close in our area, one in Shildon and one in Bishop Auckland. A year later, a month before the general election, another practice sent out letters to the parents of children, saying

21:21

Sam Rushworth MP (Bishop Auckland, Labour)

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that because of how the NHS contract is funded and managed, as well as the national shortage, they said we've come to the realisation that we are unable to offer NHS patients the level of care they patients the level of care they deserve, and will no longer be able to provide NHS dental services to to provide NHS dental services to child patients. From the 1st of October 2024. So that was the situation that this government inherited an underfunded service, a broken contract and the reasons in 2006 for introducing it were sound at the time, but it was broken and needed reform and off rolling of patients.

Now, look, things have some things have gone well and this government has made progress on emergency appointments. It was right to focus on using the underspend because people were pulling their own teeth out and facing the most extreme cases. But appointments have not always been easy to come by and often require travelling across the county. Toothbrushing in schools is massively welcomed by dentists, less so by teachers, and I'd be appreciate the Secretary of State talking about this and what can be done to increase the take up of that programme.

The more more dental places in dental training schools are welcome and progress on the new contract. But many dentists are telling me that the path, the care pathways, pay less by the hour, and they're not sure if they will see the value in them. But we do have to be honest, the number of people with access to NHS primary care, as opposed to emergency appointments, has barely increased

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in two years. Overall, I will give way. I thank the hon. Gentleman giving way. He's giving a.

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giving way. He's giving a. Powerful speech on behalf of his constituents and dentistry challenges in his area. He's talked. About the contract. Others have

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About the contract. Others have referred to it today. It rewards activity at the moment and not prevention. Is that one of the

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things he'd like to see change in the contract? I would like to see that change, and I would and I press the and I would and I press the Minister today to not delay in bringing forth the consultation on on new proposals around that contract. But in addition to reform, we have to be honest. We need to also bring funding levels back to where they were in 2010. Now, I met recently with dentists from across Durham, including one of the chief negotiators for the British Dental Association.

They had warm words to say about the Minister. They felt that he sincere and serious in tackling this. But they did feel that the resources are simply not enough. And as has been said already in this debate, that £1.5 billion a year is enough to fix NHS dentistry so that everyone in the country can have an NHS dentist. That's the equivalent of a 0.3% increase in national Insurance, or £3 per month per taxpayer. This is not a large sum of money in the grand scheme of things, compared to what could be saved if we didn't have so many people facing dental emergencies.

And so I want to really press today that we have cross-party support on this, because it's all very well everyone coming here and saying that we need to reform the contract and we do, but we need to face up to the fact that we need to fund NHS dentistry properly and it is worth the investment to do so. And that's why it's it's an intolerable position to keep hearing opposition from the parties opposite to the investment that we're putting into the National Health Service.

We heard just a moment ago a call for some of that 29 billion to be spent on dentistry, then support the 29 billion. And yes, let's fund NHS dentistry.

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A Claire Young Madam Deputy Speaker. And I thank the hon. Friend for leading today's debate across my Thornbury and Yate constituency. The lack of practices providing NHS services has been particularly acute. As I put it in particularly acute. As I put it in the last week, fewer than a third of adults and just under half of children in my patch have been seen children in my patch have been seen by an NHS dentist in the past two years, both figures well below the national average.

Constituents write to me regularly to express write to me regularly to express their frustration that lack of local NHS provision. I've been assured that the NHS does everything to ensure patients who lose access through privatisation receive adequate treatment elsewhere, but that has not been the experience of many of my constituents. David waited nearly two years for an appointment, only

21:25

Claire Young MP (Thornbury and Yate, Liberal Democrat)

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for his practice to go private. His situation deteriorated to the point where he required emergency where he required emergency treatment, which the NHS did provide, but the underlying problem was never fully resolved, and he's been advised by his practice to go for private treatment. That is a failure, and not only in the immediate sense, short term immediate sense, short term emergency care does not address the underlying cause. The longer term cost to the NHS through repeat cost to the NHS through repeat emergency appointments or to my constituent through lost earnings and private fees is significantly greater than timely treatment would have been.

This government has now been in power for two years, but in that time David has seen no improvement in his dental care. I think that speaks for itself. Madam Deputy Speaker, David's story is one of dozens. I've heard another constituent, Doris, was left with an infection for months, only to be told that there is no NHS provision for molar treatment in South Gloucestershire. She too had to go private. I members across the House have highlighted the steps the government needs to take, particularly around the contract.

I just want to make two points. Firstly, in response to a written question, I wrote the. The Minister told me that there. That the. There is no data held by the NHS centrally on NHS dental appointments cancelled due to practices converting to private provision. How can you measure progress if you only count those coming in through the front door, not

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Those leaving at the rear. I would also say that dental provision has higher operating provision has higher operating costs and lower patient density. How can that challenge be reflected How can that challenge be reflected in the contract review? Thornbury and Yate has an exceptionally poor. Is an exceptionally poorly served Is an exceptionally poorly served area for NHS dentistry. I've written separately to the Minister to request a meeting to review our

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to request a meeting to review our local situation, and I hope he will take me up on that. Mark Sewards thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Let me start at the outset by saying I love dentists, and I'll tell you why. 20 years ago, almost to the day I completed my last GCSE history exam and I decided to go celebrate with my friends in Islington in my constituency. We chose to cycle down New Lane, which is between gildersome and drighlington, and New Lane is a steep hill and as I discovered, it has speed bumps.

Now my friends and I, we decided to race down that hill and in my desperation to win, I went faster than any of them. Now I don't remember my face meeting the concrete, but I do remember the sensation that you feel when you go down on a roller coaster. That's the good news. The bad news was that my face was badly damaged and my teeth were completely destroyed. Now I am eternally grateful to the NHS, doctors and nurses that put my face back together, but unfortunately it did require years of treatment from dentists to fix my teeth, and the treatment is still ongoing today.

Now I'm very grateful to have been served by NHS dentists dentists for those last 20 years and one thing they've done

21:28

Mark Sewards MP (Leeds South West and Morley, Labour)

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extremely well is they've dealt with composite bonding. If any one in this House. Madam Deputy Speaker, is experienced composite bonding, you'll know it can have a transformative effect. But you will also know, Madam Deputy Speaker, also know, Madam Deputy Speaker, that it can break really easily. And as somebody who grinds his teeth at night, it has meant that I teeth at night, it has meant that I have had some, in some cases, weekly appointments at NHS dentists weekly appointments at NHS dentists just to maintain the appearance.

Now, unfortunately, some of the teeth couldn't be saved and I did have to settle on some veneers, but I still go back for my composite bonding appointments. But the thing is, despite that story, I still count myself as one of the lucky ones. Because if that accident had happened to me today, I imagine my experience would have been very, very different. I have constituents contact me all the time telling me about the lack of access to NHS dentistry. In some cases, I have constituents who are told by NHS dentists that they will be seen within 6 to 12 months, but if they call back and ask for a private appointment, they can be seen that day.

The only difference, of course, being that it will take six times

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the cost to be seen. Of course. Would you agree with me that. This is therefore a massive cost

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This is therefore a massive cost of living pressure for people that can't afford a dentist, and that it would probably be worth us putting

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would probably be worth us putting the investment in to make sure that everyone can have an NHS dentist? I absolutely do agree we should consider it and it must be done consider it and it must be done within the fiscal rules and we must find the money in a responsible way. But given that we've heard some But given that we've heard some sources tonight, quote 1.5 billion to fix dentistry, I think that's a very reasonable figure to consider finding. But, Madam Deputy Speaker, with a very short time left to me, I do think there is a solution to this.

It is fundamental reform of the NHS dental contract. It must start considering things like prevention much more seriously. It must also incentivise dentists to treat complex problems and not just simple ones. And it should also focus on the workforce demands. Now those three things are difficult, but we are here to grasp the nettle. This Labour government and most Labour MPs, just like me, were elected to do the difficult things in office. I know that this is difficult. I know that we need to find extra resources, and I know that there are no easy choices when it comes to fixing any of our public services, and that includes dentistry.

But we have this time in office and we should use it. Thank

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you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Vikki Slade thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and it's great to follow the Member for Leeds South follow the Member for Leeds South West. As I recall, my husband losing his two front teeth to a losing his two front teeth to a crash helmet in his face, and my nephew Arlo, who's currently got plastic on his teeth, having lost plastic on his teeth, having lost his two front teeth at the age of ten to his little brother. But I want to focus, Madam Deputy Speaker, want to focus, Madam Deputy Speaker, on a conversation I had with a very senior NHS dentist in my constituency of Mid Dorset and North Poole Jonathan, who I consider to be a true expert, having almost 40 years working in our NHS dentistry.

He told me that in 2024 we had a £9 million underspend in our dentistry Budget. Goodness knows where that's gone. And a Freedom of information request revealed that this year, £6 million was removed from a supposed ringfenced Budget for dentistry.

21:31

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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What is going on in Dorset? The ICBs have arranged for urgent care

21:31

Mark Sewards MP (Leeds South West and Morley, Labour)

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ICBs have arranged for urgent care to be done through NHS 101. No one knows about it, and it means that

21:31

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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one provider that provided 4000 appointments last year will only appointments last year will only deliver 1300 this year. Alongside my colleagues, I've been calling for a dental school in Dorset for years. It seems that we may be years. It seems that we may be getting something in Bournemouth, but only for dental technicians, not for dentists, which is not much good to those of us that need complex care. And in Poole, we've heard proposals for a centre for Complex Care for people with disabilities or neurodiversities.

But we need a £4 million capital and no one can tell us where capital for dentistry comes from. So it seems that in Dorset things are in a bit of a mess. And we also heard that dentists were told that they could have an additional 10% in the number of dental units, but they weren't given the information until six weeks before the end of the year, meaning they have no opportunity to spend them. And residents that do have a dentist tell me their dentists are refusing extractions or anything complicated, and instead referring them to the hospital, where they're then added to the secondary care waiting list.

Why? Because the dentists can't make enough money from them. And the tax trap apparently means that they're reducing their number of hours on the NHS because the tax treatment of the fees in the private sector means that they're better off doing it that way round. Frankly, it is a complete mess. I welcome the changes that mean dentists have to stay in the NHS for three years. But I do have to ask the question why should our residents then only have junior dentists dealing with their complex care? Madam Deputy Speaker, it is a disgrace that over five years the 2024 100,000 children were admitted to hospital with rotting teeth.

This issue is now urgent. We cannot waste any more time and if it's not addressed, we will continue to lose NHS dentists as quickly, as quickly as my constituents and our

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colleagues are losing their teeth. Brian Mathew Madam Deputy

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Brian Mathew Madam Deputy Speaker In my constituency of Melksham, two years. In two years, Melksham, two years. In two years, only 29% of adults were seen by dentists and only 56% of Wiltshire's children. Children are Wiltshire's children. Children are being seen by an NHS dentist each year. A figure of shame. Given that year. A figure of shame. Given that the NHS recommends that children be seen regularly from their very first tooth. Nationally, the picture is just as bleak. According to NHS England, over 12 million children across the country did not see NHS dentist in the year to June 2024.

The consequences are severe. Tooth decay is now the leading cause of hospital admissions, with children aged 6 to 10 in England, with over 35,000 children being admitted each year for tooth

21:34

Brian Mathew MP (Melksham and Devizes, Liberal Democrat)

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extractions under general anaesthetic. Risky procedures that are almost entirely preventable. The lack of access to dental services across the country is a services across the country is a devastating knock on impact on our country's overall health, evidenced country's overall health, evidenced by rising levels of oral cancers in the UK. These include cancers of the UK. These include cancers of the tongue, lips, gums, tonsils and throat. The eighth most common cancer in the UK, with nearly 12,000 new cases recorded in 2023.

Eddie Crouch, the chair of the British Dental Association, has pointed out that dentists are on the front line of detecting these cancers before they turn fatal, with early detection, oral cancers have a survival rate of around 90%, but if diagnosis is delayed, that drops to just 50%. The ongoing crisis in NHS dentistry is therefore not just a matter of convenience, but a matter of life and death for some patients. The previous health secretary was right when he said that cancer survival shouldn't come down to who won the lottery of life.

I urge the government to heed his words and act with urgency to end the dental deserts and restore children's services before a generation grows up without routine care, and to rebuild the services that catch those cancers early and save lives. Lastly, on the matter of Ukrainian dentists who could be working for the NHS, will the Minister acknowledge that their qualifications and allow them to practice here? The current situation is ridiculous, with a professor of dentistry in my area, for example, reduced to working as

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a dental assistant. Thank you. Liberal Democrat spokesperson Helen Maguire.

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Helen Maguire. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The phrases. Dental, desert and DIY dentistry are becoming so normalised that it's easy to forget the human cost behind these terms. In 2025, over 5 million children did not see a dentist at all. 60% of adults have dentist at all. 60% of adults have also not seen a dentist in at least the two years prior to June 2025. Barriers to accessing NHS dental care remain higher than ever, with workforce shortages, limited NHS capacity and geographical isolation creating an unjust postcode lottery.

These challenges are often most

21:37

Helen Maguire MP (Epsom and Ewell, Liberal Democrat)

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acute in rural, coastal and deprived communities, as we've heard today. The Darzi report found that these communities particularly that these communities particularly lacked access to NHS dentistry. Dentistry across much of rural England, including nearly the whole England, including nearly the whole southwest and much of the east of England. There are fewer than 46 dentists per 100 000 people. Research conducted by the British Dental Association and the mirror found that 96% of dentists in found that 96% of dentists in England are refusing to take on new NHS patients.

And we heard that today this dental desert is leaving millions without access to dental care, with dire consequences. There is a significant correlation between lower availability of NHS dental care and higher demand on the already stretched A&E departments. Tooth decay is now the most common reason for hospital admission in children aged between 6 and 10 years. Between 2018 and 2024, over 100,000 children were admitted to hospital due to rotting teeth. This is utterly unacceptable. Our children deserve better.

A 2023 poll found that 1 in 5 people who failed to get an NHS dentist appointment turned to DIY dentistry, so there was one dentist in Epsom and Ewell who shared his distressing experiences with patients. He described how in desperation, his patient had resorted to using a pair of pliers to extract teeth, filing down the sharp edges of broken tooth and even purchasing temporary dental cement to try to fill an open cavity. This is a not too uncommon story that we hear among our constituents in a recent survey looking into why people resort to DIY dentistry, 36% of participants said that their pain was so severe that they acted out of immediacy.

33% cited the high cost of private care, and 30% said the inability to get an appointment. This is a national disgrace. We must fix it now. This Labour government has failed to take meaningful action. Their announcement in March to expand dental training schools only amounts to an extra 50 training places in real terms. While it's a step in the right direction, it's still a major drop in the ocean. Even the previous conservative government, with their disastrous record on the NHS who oversaw waiting lists of up to 7.6 million, had more ambition.

They committed to increasing the number of NHS dental training places to 24% by 28, 29 and 40% by 2030 132, although funding on their watch did fall by 16%. But they did have ambition. To make matters worse, Labour have also quietly dropped their manifesto pledge to deliver 700,000 more dental appointments, having only delivered around 100,000 dental appointments so far. Labour also claimed that the integrated care boards have commissioned over 100 million appointments, but commissioning appointments is very different to actually delivering them.

The Liberal Democrats are clear we must take urgent and decisive action. We would implement a £750 million dental rescue plan that would guarantee access to an NHS dentist for all needing urgent and emergency care. This was end the dental desert and DIY dentistry. We'd also introduce an emergency scheme to guarantee access to free NHS dental check-ups for children, new mothers, those who are pregnant and those on low incomes. In addition, we provide guaranteed appointments for all those needing a dental check prior to undergoing surgery, chemotherapy or a transplant.

So will the Labour government implement these calls? The issues of NHS dentistry cannot be solved with these measures alone. We must also urgently reform the current dental contract, which is fundamentally unfit for purpose. To stop the exodus of NHS dentists and increase access to NHS dentistry, the current system effectively sets quotas on the number of patients dentists can see on the NHS, as dentists are commissioned to deliver a set number of units of dental activity, or udas. This system pays dentists vastly different prices per UDAs, delivered with some practices receiving £30 for each UDA they do, whilst others receive over £50 for the identical work.

One dentist, constituent of mine told me about his practice's commitment to providing NHS dentistry, but because of the EDA formula, he has compensated the same regardless of whether he fits 1 or 5 crowns in a patient. This means his practice is having to subsidise the high overhead costs, including laboratory fees, to provide these vital NHS services. As a result, his practice is reliant upon private dental services as a source of income, without which the business would not be able to survive.

This model of NHS dentistry is simply not fit for purpose, and the impact of this system across the UK is undeniable. Whilst the number of dentists registered to provide care in the UK is at an all time high of nearly 48,000, having increased by 17% in the last decade. The number of dentists actually working in the NHS is falling. In England, the total number of dentists doing some NHS work is only around 25,000, while the number of full time equivalent NHS dentists is just 10,727.

English dentists have the lowest commitment to NHS dentistry across the UK, only 38% of them spend at least three quarters of their time on NHS work, compared to 59% in Scotland, 45% in Wales and 39% in Northern Ireland. In April, Labour announced a consultation on reform of the dental contract, which is due before this summer. But with the new Secretary of State for defence, a by election, a potential leadership contest and even possibly a new Prime Minister, this government is clearly distracted.

These distractions cannot be allowed to delay reform of the contract. Any delay with the prospects of rolling out a new contract in this Parliament. This is what the country needs. It's and it's what the government have promised. So will the Labour Government ensure commit to ensuring that the consultation on dental contract will take place before this summer, as previously stated. The Liberal Democrats would fit the. Fix. The broken NHS dental contract using flexible commissioning to better meet patient needs. This would also bring dentists back from the private sector to the NHS.

We'd also increase the number of dentists training places in the UK and continue to recognise the qualifications of EU trained dentists. NHS dentistry is in crisis and we must act now. Through the implementation of the Liberal Democrats policies, people would be able to access the NHS dental treatments they need. Ending dental

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deserts and DIY dentistry once and for all. Yes. Johnson. Yes.

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Yes. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I congratulate the members for Yeovil, Waveney Valley, Sunderland Central and my hon. Friend for Farnham and Bordon for securing this very important debate. Madam Deputy Speaker, I once read that Deputy Speaker, I once read that nothing you wear is more important than your smile, because it is your smiles and laughter that come with them that bring the joy and happiness to the world. And in that spirit, I would like to start by acknowledging some progress that this government has made.

The previous conservative government began establishing dental schools in Norwich and Portsmouth to bring the next generation of dentists, hygienists and dental therapists to local people. We started fixing the roots of dental education, and I'm pleased that this government has continued it, allocating 25

21:43

Dr Caroline Johnson MP (Sleaford and North Hykeham, Conservative)

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training places to each of these schools. That, of course, is good news. And as the Minister will know, news. And as the Minister will know, it's been a long standing campaign of mine to get a dental school in Lincoln. Excellent progress has Lincoln. Excellent progress has been made so far with a hub and spoke model to help rural areas such as my hon. Friend from such as my hon. Friend from Bridgwater described and the team at the University of Lincoln are now just waiting for a sign off.

The final sign off from the GDC and the Privy Council, and I'm hoping that soon there will be places for Lincolnshire too. In the Minister's plans for dental education to help bolster NHS dentistry in 2024. The conservative government consulted on proposals to require dental graduates to work in the NHS for three years after qualifying, and this government's ten year plan committed to this policy. But I think we're waiting for a consultation to set out the proposals in greater detail. So can the Minister tell if it's still the government's intention to introduce tie ins to NHS dentistry for dental graduates, and when the proposals will be in place? The last conservative government did, as the Liberal Democrat spokeswoman said, commit to expanding dentistry training places by 40% over 15 years.

Despite population growth, there are still more dentists than per 100,000 people than there were in 2009. This government's workforce plan should lay out how many dentists, hygienists and therapists we need to recruit and how the government's going to do it. Unfortunately, the Madam Deputy Speaker that workforce plan was due last year before being delayed until spring 26, and it's now Summer 26. In response to a recent question, the Minister said it was due imminently. I'm sure that's quicker than soon and much quicker than in due course.

But if the Minister has time to define imminently, I'd be most grateful. However, is it not all about numbers? And indeed, the Minister for care himself has said the issue is not the number of dentists, but the paucity of dentists that are doing NHS work. So, Mr. Speaker, Madam Deputy Speaker, there is a case for making the NHS more attractive to dentists in the first place. We know that dentists are disincentivized from working in the NHS and the main problem with that is many have identified is the contract created under the last Labour government in 2006.

So this has been a problem going for some time. And I remember in the early 2000 I moved to Lincolnshire. I travelled back to Redcar to see my wonderful NHS dentist, Mr. Dixon, until he retired. There are several issues with the units of dental activity model in that contract. Firstly, they bizarrely fluctuate between practices can can, creating inequities in payment. Secondly, the UDA does not affect does not really equate with the real time cost of delivering complex care. And thirdly, the UDA does not always cover the costs of care, meaning dentists may be asked to provide some NHS care at a loss.

The Conservatives started to change this. Madam Deputy Speaker, we raised the minimum UDA payment and we gave care commissioners the tools they need to address UDA rates locally to better support delivery of care for patients. The former Secretary of State said he would sort it by meeting with the BDA on day one. Now, I believe he did meet with the BDA straight away, but there seems to have been little progress since. In April the Minister of Care promised a consultation on fundamental contract reform would launch before the summer.

But now we are now in June. So can the Minister say when it will be ready? Does the Minister expect to reform the dental contract in this Parliament as he promised? The government is focusing a lot of resources on abolishing NHS England, and they have cut ICB budgets by 50 ICB budgets by 50%. Are they so focussed on restructuring that promises are not getting delivered for patients? Talking of delivery, the government promised 700,000 urgent dental appointments and commissioned a million appointments. But in March, Madam Deputy Speaker, the government admitted that just 100,000 additional urgent appointments had been taken up.

And I am aware of some dentists who are staffing appointments on call on an in case basis. So how many unattended appointments did the government pay for? The Minister has now broadened his definition of urgent. But is the Minister confident that we will now have the urgent need met, and that it will not be crowded out? By his broader definition, when we have heard much about children's teeth and in 2015 there were 42,209 children who were admitted to hospital to have dental extractions due to decayed teeth.

By 2024, that had fallen to 30,567 had dropped, but still far too many. But in 2025, when it rose to nearly 34,000, the previous government introduced a big brush club in south west England, and I noticed that that was the only region to have reduced number of admissions in the 2024 2025 year for decay extraction. So what has the Minister made of that programme? How does their programme differ from the Big Brush programme? And when people need their teeth brushing holidays, weekends and evenings, how is the Minister working on ensuring parents deliver on their responsibilities? Because it is indeed their responsibility to ensure children have brushed their teeth, their children to brush their teeth twice a day? Madam Deputy Speaker, the government's ten year plan rightly focuses on prevention.

One important preventative measure is the fluoridation of the water supply. The government's Water Fluoridation Health Monitoring report in 2026 found that children living in areas with fluoridation scheme had a 20% lower incidence of tooth extractions. So will the Minister say what he's doing to explore expanding water fluoridation to help to eliminate tooth decay? Mr. speaker, Madam Speaker, dentistry is important. Good oral health is not just about our teeth, our mouth and our gums. Research published in The Lancet reported a growing body of evidence that suggests oral health is closely associated with conditions such as cardiovascular disease, diabetes and Alzheimer's.

One's dentist may also identify symptoms of Pete Seeger syndrome, Sjogren's syndrome, nutritional deficits, Crohn's disease, and oral cancers. So delivering on NHS dentistry is very important for our wider health, too. But so far, Madam Deputy Speaker, it feels as though the government has been all smiles but little action when it comes to making NHS dentistry work for everyone. I do hope that the Minister and his new Secretary of State will not seek to blame others, but instead will recognise that they now have the levers in their hands.

Indeed, they have had them in their hands for nearly two years

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now, and that they will now use quickly. They.

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They. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'd like to congratulate the hon. Members for Yeovil, Waveney hon. Members for Yeovil, Waveney Valley and Farnham and Bordon for securing this very important debate. securing this very important debate. Madam Deputy Speaker, when we came into office, we inherited an appalling situation, not just in dentistry, but right across my dentistry, but right across my primary community and social care portfolio. The last government tinkered at the edges. For example, taxpayers footed the bill for their new patient premium to the tune of £126 million, but it had no impact on patients, so we cancelled it as a total waste of time and money.

What's more, the previous government utterly failed to reform the contract and to set up any new training schools or expand any training places, and I'm afraid that the end result is this Dickensian state of affairs where people have been resorting to DIY

21:50

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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21:59

Remaining Orders of the Day

Thank you. Yeah. >> Thank you. Yeah. >> The question is, as on the Order Paper, as many as are of that opinion, say I, I of the contrary. opinion, say I, I of the contrary. No, I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it. I'll give the front Stevenage. adjourn.

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The question is that this House do now adjourn. Aphra Brandreth. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm grateful for the opportunity to have secured today's adjournment debate on the proposed carbon capture and storage project, peak cluster, and the implications it

22:00

Adjournment: Impact of proposed carbon capture pipeline projects on communities in Cheshire

could have for communities, landowners, farmers and the countryside across Cheshire and countryside across Cheshire and neighbouring counties. The proposed pipeline route cuts through my constituency of Chester South and Eddisbury, and so directly impacts constituents in the wards of Christleton and Huntington, Bunbury, Tattenhall and Tarporley. I have been inundated with correspondence from local people, raising significant concerns. I've launched a local survey to gather views and

22:01

Aphra Brandreth MP (Chester South and Eddisbury, Conservative)

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22:26

Michael Shanks MP, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Rutherglen, Labour)

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not be taken forward. I am aware that proposals have received a number of local stories in the number of local stories in the press, and a public petition has received many signatures. I would also just say something the hon. Lady said that I would echo, which Lady said that I would echo, which is that there is a way to engage in this process. Robust comments, of course, are important. People care course, are important. People care deeply about these things, but abuse targeted at either those involved in the project or at other involved in the project or at other hon.

Members in the House is not a productive way to take this forward. And so I hope that there will be a process where people feel they genuinely can participate into it. As I understand it, the peak Cluster does have plans for more extensive consultation later this year before any final proposals are made. Let me just say no decision has been made by the government, either to support this project or obviously part of the process, which will be completed once it is submitted and will be completed in the way that those processes always are in a quasi judicial way by by the Secretary of State.

I do want to just respond to a couple of specific challenges that were made in the debate. First of all, on safety, it is really important to make the case to the public that carbon capture is a very tried and tested technology. It has been deployed across industry and power generation at scale for a long time. Geological CO2 storage has been in operation for decades. Norway has stored CO2 since 1996 with over 20 million tonnes stored so far. Our regulatory regime rightly has to raise to the safety levels to ensure that continues.

And there were a number of other points that the hon. Lady raised, which I will happily pick up with her in more detail, but I do want to just make this final point in closing. And we do want to be a government that drives forward on reducing our carbon emissions and builds the technologies of the future, but we are not a government that governs by diktat. The views of local communities do matter, and they matter deeply to me, but also to the Secretary of State and to this process.

The only way that this works for everyone involved is if those views are taken seriously. And if communities feel that those views are taken seriously by all those involved. And it is also important on all of us to recognise the really important benefits that come from carbon capture and the pathway that we are on as a government. And so that is the balance that we seek to achieve as a government. The views of local people, but also building the infrastructure that this country needs into the future.

So can I genuinely thank the hon. Lady for bringing this debate and for my hon. Friends, for contributing as well. And thank you very much.

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The question is this House do now adjourn, as many as are of that now adjourn, as many as are of that opinion, say I. The ayes have it.

This debate has concluded

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