Live Debate: Commons Chamber

Q2. What assessment he has made of the potential implications for his policies of the withdrawal of UKRI funding for Jodrell Bank Observatory from 2028. (901497)

had been made. I can always promise her, however, that the aggregate impact the balance on business, whether it's on employment rights, whether it's on taxation, is always something that this department fights very hard for in government, because we're aware the only way to because we're aware the only way to fulfil the true ambitions of the British people is an economy that's performing strongly, employing more people, giving them hope and

09:43

Rt Hon Jonathan Reynolds MP, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade (Stalybridge and Hyde, Labour )

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opportunity for the future. But I do believe this new department, with the extra things that have come into it, are genuinely exciting opportunity to bring a more coherent story to these interventions from government. That economy.

09:44

Hannah Spencer MP (Gorton and Denton, Green Party)

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Maya Ellis Spencer. Funding for the email and Radio telescope. Two two. Sorry. >> Thank you. I welcome this

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Thank you. I welcome this question from my constituency neighbour and grateful to her for raising it. The Prime Minister and I have been clear that Jodrell Bank has a secure future. Just to be clear to the House, what is happening here is the primary radio astronomy project is going to move from the Merlin Radio Telescope from March 2028 to the Square Kilometre Array Observatory at that point. Going forward, however, that was a science based decision, but we are exploring the long term options for the sustainability of Jodrell Bank.

09:44

Rt Hon Jonathan Reynolds MP, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade (Stalybridge and Hyde, Labour )

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Hannah Spencer Thank. >> Hannah Spencer Thank. >> You, madam. Specific funding for the radio telescope network is due to end in 2028, putting Jodrell Bank future at risk, and people across Gorton and Denton have made clear to me the vital role that this observatory plays in opening science up to people of all ages. Many of us went there on school trips as kids, and the Prime Minister assured us that his government will find funding a funding solution. So will the Secretary of State explain how the government intends to honour this heartfelt commitment and secure Jodrell Bank long term future as an active sovereign scientific

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facility? Thank you. I'm grateful to her for raising this, and I recognise the strength this, and I recognise the strength of feeling that she has talked about in her question. She will know on a clear day. You can see know on a clear day. You can see Jodrell Bank from Matley Lane in Tameside and it's a wonderful site. It's important given that we have a It's important given that we have a very significant R&D Budget in the UK, that scientific decisions are made on the basis of the science, made on the basis of the science, but that still doesn't mean there isn't a future for Jodrell Bank as an asset.

That is consistent with making sure we're making science based decisions on the prioritisation of that funding. I met with the University of Manchester just a few days ago about this, and the local MP for the area have been incredibly supportive in finding a solution. I supportive in finding a solution. I that.

09:45

Peter Fortune MP (Bromley and Biggin Hill, Conservative)

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Backbench MPs can only come in if the question is about Jodrell if the question is about Jodrell Bank Observatory. OK. Are shadow

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Minister Peter Fortune. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The renationalisation renationalisation of the railways renationalisation of the railways is not working. The. The Drayson partitions exist to ensure that partitions exist to ensure that costs which the UK must meet and cannot change, such as international subscriptions that give us access to scientific give us access to scientific facilities are treated separately to costs which we have control over, such as grants funding. With the Stfc given a flat cash settlement, but with international

09:46

Rt Hon Jonathan Reynolds MP, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade (Stalybridge and Hyde, Labour )

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subscriptions rising with inflation, Stfc now has less money to spend on actual research, leading to world actual research, leading to world leading scientific research being dropped by stfc to the closure of dropped by stfc to the closure of facilities like Jodrell Bank. Can I ask the Minister who made the ask the Minister who made the decision? Who made the decision to

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disregard the Drayson partitions? It's good to see the Shadow Minister. Thank you for the question. Let me just be clear with the House. If you take the UKRI Budget in aggregate for the spending review period, it's nearly £39 billion. If you take the overall R&D Budget for the UK in the spending, it's £86 billion. So this is record levels of funding making a difference. It is absolutely crucial within that that we do make sure that these decisions on the prioritisation of funding are science based ones.

Now, the issue he identifies between the tension between research projects and subscription projects and the funding. I am familiar with it. I do know he's making a serious point. There has to be explored. But in terms of who has made this decision,

09:47

Q3. What steps his Department has taken to support investment in science and research. (901498)

that has been a process that runs through, I think, 30 different meetings of the Research Council.

09:47

Chris McDonald MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Stockton North, Labour)

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meetings of the Research Council. It has a process where submissions are taken from a very wide range of areas. There will always be more people wanting more funding than is available. How big I make the spending pot for it, but I just think as a house, we should be think as a house, we should be clear that we want these decisions primarily primarily made on scientific basis.

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Adam Thompson Marie Rimmer three. Madam Deputy Speaker. Minister. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker and as this is my first run out in my new brief, I thought it might be nice to just take a moment to recognise the work of Lord Vallance's science Minister and Lord Stockwood as investment Minister. And thank you very much. Thank them very much for their work.

09:48

Adam Thompson MP (Erewash, Labour)

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As we've just heard from the Secretary of State, the government is making record investments in science and technology to keep the UK at the forefront of global research and innovation. We are committing £86 billion to R&D between 2627 and 2930, including £38.6 billion for UK research and innovation. These investments are innovation. These investments are translating into jobs, innovation and economic opportunity across the UK, including in the East Midlands.

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UK, including in the East Midlands. You, Madam Deputy Speaker, can I welcome the new Minister to his new place? Despite the government's significant funding increases to science generally, the Science and Technology Facilities Council, Stfc

09:48

Chris McDonald MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Stockton North, Labour)

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is facing significant cost pressures. I met recently with some Stfc funded former colleagues who fear an exodus of professional fear an exodus of professional talent from the UK because of these pressures, given the importance of Stfc funded facilities in the UK's scientific capability, can the Minister then set out what he's doing to ensure that the council's financial position is put on a sustainable footing, without undermining the long term pipeline of researchers and the UK's ability

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of researchers and the UK's ability to participate in major international science programmes? Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I think, first of all, it's important to recognise that in the changes that Stfc are making, there is an impact on the staff who work for Stfc. I've been in the unfortunate position of of working in a company, undertaking such a restructure and of having to do such restructures myself in the past, and I do appreciate how difficult that is for staff.

I've

09:49

Victoria Collins MP (Harpenden and Berkhamsted, Liberal Democrat)

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spoken to the executive chair of Stfc, and at the core of this programme is exactly as my hon. programme is exactly as my hon. Friend has described, a desire to get FTF Stfc into a position where it has appropriate financial management, whilst also increasing productivity and modernising in response to new technology. The response to new technology. The government is supporting this with an increase in Stfc funding to £842

09:50

Chris McDonald MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Stockton North, Labour)

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an increase in Stfc funding to £842 million by 20 2930 from the £835 million of 2526. >> Victoria Collins.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Harpenden is the home to Rothamsted Research and our universities lead the world. Yet too much of that brilliance never leaves the lab. So will the Minister look at Lib Dem proposals to bring in a standard national framework for spin out IP and quintuple the proof of concept funding. So Britain's discoveries

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funding. So Britain's discoveries scale here and not abroad. Yeah. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

09:50

Dame Chi Onwurah MP (Newcastle upon Tyne Central and West, Labour)

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>> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I agree very much with her point about the need for Britain's discoveries to be scaled here at home rather than abroad. I'm taking an end to end approach on this, starting with scientific discovery and ending, hopefully with large companies listed on the London Stock Exchange and supporting businesses throughout the whole of the whole of that process. You innovate UKRI innovate UK doing some really great work here and supported as well by the increased role of the British Business Bank.

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Chair, the Scientific Committee. Gen Kitchen Warren. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, and let me welcome Deputy Speaker, and let me welcome the Minister to his new role, and particularly this government's emphasis on driving growth through innovation in every region of our country, as recommended by my country, as recommended by my committee's recent report, Flying Blind. Now, the reason it was called Flying Blind was because it called Flying Blind was because it identified a real lack of data and information about what the factors

09:51

Chris McDonald MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Stockton North, Labour)

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that drive growth and how to measure success in our regions and across clusters, and called for a across clusters, and called for a dashboard. Could the Minister tell me what progress has been made on that dashboard? And in particular, that dashboard? And in particular, has he looked at the Manchester X Cambridge baseline report, which Cambridge baseline report, which identified a number of indicators, including company stock funded count, disclosed funding by

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employer, etc. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. My my right hon. Friend and I share a great confidence in data and the desire to to make decisions on a daily basis. And as these regional disparities that she is describing, I've looked precisely at this data, and there is a clear distinction between the proportion of UKRI funding and UKRI spinouts, for instance, and then the ability of those companies to attract investment. In fact, the level of funding they received is based on their proximity to London.

So I do their proximity to London. So I do share her concern, and we are looking at the data for that. And and I will certainly be happy to and I will certainly be happy to work with her and her committee on how we ensure that regional funding is more appropriately spread.

09:52

Alison Bennett MP (Mid Sussex, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you.

09:52

Chris McDonald MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Stockton North, Labour)

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Madam Deputy Speaker. Universal Quantum are born out of the University of Sussex, and they're based in my Mid Sussex constituency. They are developing a unique trapped ion modular technology for trapped ion modular technology for quantum computing at scale. They received $77 million from the German government in 2022, and have just last week secured $100 million of series A funding from investors, including the Singaporean government. They have, however, been unsuccessful in getting any funding from our own government.

Can the Minister explain how this tallies with their department's commitment to investing in exceptional home grown companies?

09:53

Q4. What steps his Department is taking under the Product Regulation and Metrology Act 2025 to hold online marketplaces accountable for the safety of products sold on their platforms. (901499)

Thank you very much, Madam >> Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. The situation that she described about the loss of UK quantum companies, largely under the previous government, is exactly why my predecessor was so determined to set up the Procure programme to ensure that the UK is leading not only in the procurement of quantum computing, but that we enable the growth of UK businesses enable the growth of UK businesses to do that. In March 2026, the government announced a landmark commitment of up to £2 billion for commitment of up to £2 billion for the next stage of the national programme.

And our ambition is that we will see UK quantum companies scale and stay in the UK.

09:53

Kate Dearden MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Halifax, Labour )

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Gloucester Peter Prinsley.

09:53

Dr Peter Prinsley MP (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket, Labour)

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Thank you. Question number four, please, sir. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and good morning. I thank my hon. Friend for his question. This was a key aspect of our recent consultations, which proposed a consultations, which proposed a duty for online marketplaces to due care to identify, prevent and remove unsafe goods from their sites. The consultation package also proposes a modernised enforcement toolkit, and my intention is that future regulations will set out strong new duties on online marketplaces backed by appropriate sanctions.

09:54

Kate Dearden MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Halifax, Labour )

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Doctor Peter Prinsley. I'm grateful to the Minister for her answer. So residents of Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket, like millions of us across the country, millions of us across the country, increasingly rely on online marketplaces for everyday purchases. Yet the consumer magazine, which continues to uncover dangerous products being sold on these platforms. So will the Minister ensure that forthcoming regulations place a clear legal duty on online marketplaces to identify and remove unsafe products, backed by

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meaningful penalties for those that fail to protect consumers? I thank.

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I thank. You for raising this really important issue and bringing it to the House today. Reflecting the changes in preferences for his changes in preferences for his constituents and those across the country, and how they buy products online and interact with online marketplaces. I also want to take marketplaces. I also want to take this opportunity to thank the brilliant work that which does in this space. Our recent consultations on modernising the consultations on modernising the product safety framework included proposals for clear duties on online marketplaces, including clear duty for online marketplaces to take due care to identify, prevent and remove unsafe goods from their sites.

We also proposed a modernised enforcement toolkit, including civil monetary penalties, to complement the existing criminal sanctions that exist, and fines would be proportionate to risk and respond to an offence appropriately. respond to an offence appropriately. We are also considering bespoke enforcement measures to ensure that online and international supply chain actors can be effectively addressed. We'll respond to these consultations in due course, and I thank him for his engagement in this space. this space.

09:55

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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Vikki Slade thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Countless constituents have written to me about their concerns about the

09:55

Kate Dearden MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Halifax, Labour )

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proliferation of high powered e-bikes, e-scooters and conversion kits, many of which are bought online now when you buy them in a shop. I've been liaising with Currys and they being as proactive as they can in telling people their point of sale material makes it clear what the law is. But online it is a Wild West. So given the it is a Wild West. So given the failures in cracking down on the vehicles where they're not permitted by the police, will the government consider limiting their

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government consider limiting their online sales using the Product Regulation and Metrology Act? Yeah.

09:56

Rt Hon Jonathan Reynolds MP, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade (Stalybridge and Hyde, Labour )

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I thank the hon. Member for raising this issue, and I know she has campaigned on this and colleagues across this House, and I share their concerns in our recent consultation on reforming the product safety framework, we did product safety framework, we did seek views on additional measures and responsibilities that are needed to improve the safety of products sold online. This included products sold online. This included lithium ion batteries and their use in consumer goods such as e-bikes. We have to keep her updated on the We have to keep her updated on the progress of this work when we respond in due course.

Patrick Hurley number six please, sir.

09:56

Patrick Hurley MP (Southport, Labour)

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Madam Deputy Speaker, as we've heard, this new department brings together a range of essential policy areas to back industries, technologies and jobs that will power future growth. For me, sustained economic growth can only come through greater private investment and private capital, and the business investment figures for the UK are encouraging, and our industrial strategy has used the policy tools at its disposal to attract over £390 billion of private investment commitments since it came into force.

09:57

Rt Hon Jonathan Reynolds MP, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade (Stalybridge and Hyde, Labour )

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Patrick Hurley thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I welcome the GDP figures which have been published this morning. If we're serious, though, about growth, we need to ramp up our capacity and manufacturing and ensure that GDP growth is matched with jobs growth. So will the Secretary of State consider setting an ambition of a million new manufacturing jobs in the next decade, putting Reindustrialisation at the heart of

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the government's growth strategy? Well, I warmly welcome my hon. Friend's question about Reindustrialisation, which is an Reindustrialisation, which is an essential part of the government's programme backing Reindustrialisation does not mean we don't recognise the tremendous we don't recognise the tremendous contribution of services, and it's not nostalgia, it's about looking at the brilliant innovation we have in the UK and seeing it scaled up. To do that requires policy interventions, and I'm extremely pleased it will shortly have coming pleased it will shortly have coming online the British Industrial Competitiveness Scheme, which will bring down our energy prices.

Electricity prices for 10,000 British manufacturers, ending the situation we had from the Tories, where we had the highest energy where we had the highest energy prices of any industrialised major nation on a target. I think we have to look at targets. I will look at to look at targets. I will look at the one he has proposed, but I also think there are other areas we have to include in that to get the holistic impact we need. holistic impact we need.

09:58

Max Wilkinson MP (Cheltenham, Liberal Democrat)

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Max Wilkinson. government, and I can see the Minister smiling because I've spoken to him about it a lot. It also enjoyed the support of the last government. It's driven locally by the local council and supported by businesses like the developer HBD. It's going to

09:58

Rt Hon Jonathan Reynolds MP, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade (Stalybridge and Hyde, Labour )

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generate 12,000 jobs and close to £1 billion of investment, supporting our cyber and tech industry, crucially supporting the industry, crucially supporting the work of Gchq. But to really unlock the success of the development, we need to be given designated area need to be given designated area status so the local council can then start reinvesting in the local business community, as it has done

09:58

Mark Garnier MP (Wyre Forest, Conservative)

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business community, as it has done so far at that development. Will the Secretary of State have a word with the Chancellor ahead of the

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with the Chancellor ahead of the Budget, to see if we can bring about a success in this bid? I'm grateful for the question. Everything the hon. Gentleman has said sounds hugely attractive to me. He's clearly already engaged with government to some degree, but I

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will follow up on his question and see what we can do to support his local area. Shadow Minister Mark Garnier.

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Shadow Minister Mark Garnier. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, can I just start off by thanking the Secretary of State for his very measured and intelligent thoughts about GDP growth rate, but can I lament that some other people in his in his some other people in his in his government seem almost complacent that the the IMF has increased GDP growth expectations from 1% to just growth expectations from 1% to just 1.3%, which puts us second in the G7.

Doesn't that show a certain

09:59

Rt Hon Jonathan Reynolds MP, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade (Stalybridge and Hyde, Labour )

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lack of of reality in the government that actually what we should be looking for is more like 2.5% GDP growth rate. The reality 2.5% GDP growth rate. The reality of it is, is the G20 is averaging of it is, is the G20 is averaging 3.1% and we're 14th in the G20. So my question to the Secretary of State is, does he recognise that State is, does he recognise that overregulating over taxing and charging too much for energy is holding back our great entrepreneurs and businesses who

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entrepreneurs and businesses who could be delivering that GDP growth of this country really needs? Well, I.

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Believe what the figures show is a level of resilience in an extraordinarily difficult global climate. But in terms of ambitions, climate. But in terms of ambitions, yes, I'm pleased that we are turning around some of the underperformance of the 14 years of conservative government. But I want conservative government. But I want more. I'm very ambitious and hungry for that. But in order to do that, we have the kind of interventions this government has already committed to at that point.

I've just made. I mean, we did inherit just made. I mean, we did inherit the highest industrial electricity prices of any developed nation. We're bringing those down by a quarter for 10,000 British businesses. Of course, I want more in that space. Of course, I'll be speaking to the Chancellor about further work in that agenda, but further work in that agenda, but bringing down the costs for business, giving them new markets through the success we've had in our trade deals, making sure that our trade deals, making sure that the regulatory system supports those objectives.

All of this contributes to what I believe is a set of tremendous opportunities for set of tremendous opportunities for the UK because of the assets that we've had, and we should be ambitious for the future.

10:00

Blair McDougall MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Jointly with the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (East Renfrewshire, Labour)

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Cat Eccles question number seven, please.

10:01

Cat Eccles MP (Stourbridge, Labour)

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Minister Madam Deputy Speaker, the government is determined to the government is determined to tackle the scourge of late payments, which causes the closure of 14,000 businesses and costs the UK economy businesses and costs the UK economy almost £11 billion a year. The Commercial Payments Bill, currently progressing through Parliament, will give the UK the strongest laws in the G7 and represents the most significant reform of payment practices in over 25 years. The Bill will ensure that small businesses spend more time on growing, investing in creating jobs and less time on chasing late payments.

payments.

10:01

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Late payment destroys thousands of viable small firms each year, and poor practices have seen large firms using small suppliers as a free overdraft. In my Stourbridge constituency, the impact is felt by manufacturers and fabricators, with local metalwork and transport supply sectors facing the longest payment delays in the UK. How is he ensuring that there is a change in payment culture and lifting that burden from small businesses?

10:02

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Well, she's absolutely right, >> Well, she's absolutely right, and I know from personal experience how frustrating it is to have large firms use small firms as that firms use small firms as that source of free finance. The bill that is going through Parliament at the moment will clamp down on those the moment will clamp down on those late payments through introducing maximum payment terms, providing stronger rights to interest and strengthening the powers of the Small Business Commissioner. But she is right on the need for a culture change, and I think the message from government is that this legislation is coming, this change is coming, and that large companies should get their payment practices in order right now.

10:02

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Jim Shannon Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank the Minister for his answer. Rising business rates, wages going up, energy prices, rising national up, energy prices, rising national insurance contributions, all those things have impacted upon small business. But one of the things that my small businesses tell me is the very issue they referred to those who don't pay on time, what can be done to specifically help firms who find that they are not getting the money from the suppliers, that they can get somewhere they can refer to, someone can help them if that's possible.

Thank you.

10:03

Q8. What steps he is taking to help protect consumers from rogue traders. (901504)

Well, he's absolutely right to raise that. And I know it's a huge problem in Northern Ireland as it is in the rest of the UK. And one of the great problems with the current system is that you as a current system is that you as a small business, have to be aggressive towards your customers to chase those those late payments. This bill will turn that power relationship on its head, and people will expect to be paid on time. And if they aren't, there time.

And if they aren't, there will be mandatory interest on that.

10:03

Kate Dearden MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Halifax, Labour )

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Bill Esterson.

10:03

Bill Esterson MP (Sefton Central, Labour)

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Madam Deputy Speaker. I know all too well the devastating impact that rogue traders can have on my that rogue traders can have on my hon. Friend's constituents, given similar discussions in my own constituency, I know many colleagues across the House, too. That is why my Department supported the Independent Furniture and Home Improvement Ombudsman's new approved code and payment protection scheme, backed by independent dispute resolution, to help hardworking families identify trusted traders and make sure people can spend their money with greater confidence and security. We remain committed to supporting the CMA and local trading standards in their ability to impose penalties via the courts. This is this Labour government delivering every day fixes to protect families and give them the room to breathe. We need

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and. Answers must be shorter. Bill Esterson thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. My constituent Deputy Speaker. My constituent Joanne paid £11,000 for a new kitchen. Her house was left in a kitchen. Her house was left in a terrible state and she was unable to get the builder to return to to get the builder to return to rectify the substandard work. Also turned out he was associated with

10:04

Kate Dearden MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Halifax, Labour )

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turned out he was associated with 21 other companies, mostly in the building trade, many of which have been dissolved. She mentioned, quite rightly, the new code for the home improvement sector, which will give confidence to consumers and support to reputable traders. But isn't there more needed to go after these cowboy builders to ensure that constituents like Joanne can get the remedy that they so much need?

10:05

Sir Christopher Chope MP (Christchurch, Conservative)

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I thank my hon. Friend. I'm sorry about that incident with his constituent. The damaging impact it constituent. The damaging impact it can have to people who have saved their entire life for savings, for home improvements, to feel unsafe in your home, to feel robbed by that is absolutely dreadful. And that's why we're taking action, starting with backing, obviously, the Furniture Home Improvement Ombudsman scheme that I've mentioned earlier, but I'm absolutely not complacent in this space. We are determined to ensure that customers know what protections are available and can use them with confidence, and I look forward to working in further in this area.

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Speaker. Rogue traders operate with impunity in the park homes sector, yet the government has refused to supply sufficient money to national supply sufficient money to national trading standards to enable them to carry out a national investigation and bring these rogues to book.

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What is the Minister going to do about it? I thank the hon. Member for his

10:05

Q9. What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the potential impact of data centre developments on resource capacity in the South West. (901505)

question. Regrettably, funding for trading standards has been a real terms funding cut of more than 50% since 2010 under the previous government. The system is therefore under severe strain. However, I under severe strain. However, I absolutely back the incredible work that trading standards do across this country and know just how much support they need. That's why we support they need. That's why we are committed to backing them. We want to commit those longer term plans to overhaul the wider consumer protection landscape, consumer protection landscape, particularly for trading standards, to help them continue carrying on with their brilliant job.

10:06

Rt Hon Kanishka Narayan MP, Minister of State (Cabinet Office) (Jointly with the Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Technology) (Vale of Glamorgan, Labour)

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Caroline Voaden question number nine, please. Mr.

10:06

Caroline Voaden MP (South Devon, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Energy Department, with departments right across government to make sure that critical infrastructure developments are sustainable for local resource capacity. The planning system takes into account a number of those questions, and they all ought to account for the long term implications for water and wider resource supply. We have specifically designed our AI growth zones to be investments in areas where there is sufficient energy capacity and where infrastructure can be enhanced.

10:06

Rt Hon Kanishka Narayan MP, Minister of State (Cabinet Office) (Jointly with the Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Technology) (Vale of Glamorgan, Labour)

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Caroline Voaden. I thank the Minister for his answer. But water Minister for his answer. But water UK says data centres in England are using about 6.6 million litres of using about 6.6 million litres of drinking water a day, set to triple by 2030. Meanwhile, households in Devon and Cornwall have been under Devon and Cornwall have been under a hosepipe ban since August and businesses are now facing water restrictions. So given the dry weather that we've had and the fact that there is probably a lot more of that to come, has the government considered legislating to require new data centres to operate with low water dependency, particularly when they're being built in the south of England, where water shortages are going to become even more pressing.

10:07

Neil Duncan-Jordan MP (Poole, Labour)

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Madam Speaker, let me say three things. One, it's important to be things. One, it's important to be clear on the data. The estimates we have at the moment suggest data centres account for approximately centres account for approximately 0.2% of non-household water usage in England, in particular. Second, when people build data centres here, when people build data centres here, we want them to build in the light of our values and what local communities need. That in turn means investing alongside technology, infrastructure, in clean energy infrastructure and in wider resourcing locally as well.

And thirdly, I'm always very keen on ideas for how further improvements and demand flexibility, both for resources on energy and water, can be supported by data centres. I'll continue to look at the ideas she has proposed.

10:07

Rt Hon Kanishka Narayan MP, Minister of State (Cabinet Office) (Jointly with the Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Technology) (Vale of Glamorgan, Labour)

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Yeah.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. There are environmental consequences caused by the consequences caused by the emergence of data centres. There are also overblown claims as to their ability to create large their ability to create large numbers of jobs. But the biggest concern is in whose interests will concern is in whose interests will they be operating. So what steps are the government taking to ensure that AI works for the people, not

10:08

Q10. What steps his Department has taken to support the advanced manufacturing sector. (901506)

that AI works for the people, not just for big tech companies? >> Yeah, yeah yeah. >> Thank you madam.

10:08

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Can I thank my hon. Friend for a question that I know we have discussed at length as well. The central point, Madam Deputy Speaker, central point, Madam Deputy Speaker, is in the last wave of technology, we need to build public trust. Nor did we build British technology. In this wave of AI. We are focussed on building both trust and technology so that we can have sovereign control over what we're building here. Richard Quigley Worcester number ten. Please, sir.

10:08

Richard Quigley MP (Isle of Wight West, Labour)

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Madam Deputy Speaker, the Industrial Strategy sets out the government's long term approach to boosting investment, productivity and growth, building on the UK's industrial strengths, including advanced manufacturing through the complimentary Advanced Manufacturing Sector Plan, backed by £4.3 billion of government funding, we are helping manufacturers to grow and thrive.

10:09

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. appearance needed any augmentation on the Isle of Wight. We are incredibly proud of our advanced manufacturing sector and for an area our size. The island has one of the biggest concentrations of advanced manufacturing and high tech engineering jobs in the country, and employers on my side of the island are racing to employ under 25. But we always want to do more. So can the Minister set out how the government's drive to buy British, alongside its renewed commitment to strengthening our defence capabilities, will create new opportunities for island manufacturers to secure their contracts, invest in growth and create the next generation of skilled jobs on the Isle of Wight.

10:09

Kate Dearden MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Halifax, Labour )

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Madam Deputy Speaker, he's absolutely right to highlight the huge opportunities for huge opportunities for manufacturers on the Isle of Wight. We are determined to use procurement strategically, as other nations do, to back British industry. It is particularly important with shipbuilding, we are expanding the role of the National Shipbuilding Office to oversee that and that renewed investment in defence and shipbuilding will create opportunities right across the maritime supply chain, including for the shipyard company and other island manufacturers.

10:10

Paula Barker MP (Liverpool Wavertree, Labour)

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Paula Barker. Sir. >> Paula Barker. Sir. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The government is clear that Royal Mail's quality of service has been Mail's quality of service has been unacceptable for too long. Royal mail published a plan to improve reliability, and I've been frank in reliability, and I've been frank in my conversations with their CEO, that they now need to increase the pace of improvement and deliver on that plan. I understand there have been operational challenges in the Lachlan and Liverpool North delivery offices, and I urge Royal

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Mail to improve their services for local people. They must do better. Paula Barker thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker. Royal mail has Deputy Speaker. Royal mail has failed to meet Ofcom delivery targets for first class mail since 2017. Yet over that time, Ofcom has 2017. Yet over that time, Ofcom has allowed the price of a first class stamp to increase by 166% and stamp to increase by 166% and relaxed targets. Royal Mail's continual failure affects the most vulnerable groups in our society.

vulnerable groups in our society. Those who receive letters about hospital appointments, court dates or social security decisions and

10:11

Kate Dearden MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Halifax, Labour )

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these are arriving late. Madam Deputy Speaker, much of the bulk mail lies outside the universal service obligation. So will the service obligation. So will the government review both that and Ofcom's remit so they ensure that Royal Mail provides a timely, affordable service for all post one that doesn't prioritise parcels and that doesn't prioritise parcels and ensure that failure is not rewarded.

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I thank my hon. Friend for her question and for raising this in the House today on behalf of her constituents and those all across the country, because Royal Mail service must improve and it must improve quickly. Customers, particularly the most vulnerable, are being let down, and delayed letters can have serious consequences. The legal correspondence, hospital appointments as she rightly raises, and where people are paying more for postal services, they rightly expect reliable and timely delivery. The government has been clear that Ofcom should carefully consider the role of bulk mail and whether, additionally, additional regulatory measures are needed to secure high standards of reliability for all postal customers. Much of the correspondence that people rely on fall outside the current quality of service targets will continue to press for a reliable postal service

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that meets the needs of all users. Mike Martin. Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker. My question relates to the My question relates to the Tonbridge and Cranbrook delivery offices, which I know also deliver to your constituency. Madam Deputy to your constituency. Madam Deputy Speaker, I ran a survey recently. 85% of experienced delays, 25% have missed a deadline or an appointment, missed a deadline or an appointment, and extraordinarily, 20% of people have experienced a three week gap have experienced a three week gap between postal deliveries.

This is obviously totally unacceptable. So can I ask whether the government has conversations with the Royal Mail specifically about the tne the Tango November postcodes?

10:12

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I thank the hon. Member for for raising this on behalf of his constituents, share his concerns and know from my own inbox. As a constituency MP, the challenges constituency MP, the challenges when people don't receive their post on time and the significant delays have been frank. In my conversations with the CEO of Royal Mail that its service has been unacceptable for too long and the pace of improvement must improve. The public and his constituents deserve a reliable postal service, and they are right to expect better if he wants to share those data with me and with Royal Mail and add to that pressure, I'd welcome it.

10:13

Noah Law MP (St Austell and Newquay, Labour)

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Noah Law well, please.

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Minister Madam Deputy Speaker, please. The central to the industrial strategy, we have been working with Plymouth and the South working with Plymouth and the South West Peninsula to support the development of distinctively national, nationally significant national, nationally significant clusters. I myself visited Plymouth and Cornwall earlier this year to meet with the Freeport to understand the opportunities around understand the opportunities around marine autonomy and to see for myself Cornwall's incredible critical mineral potential.

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critical mineral potential. Madam Deputy Speaker. As you know, in Cornwall we have a resurgent minerals industry which can make our country and our

10:13

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communities wealthy once again. But we can only do this if we process what we dig out the ground. So having strong supply chains is also imperative from a national security and resilience perspective. So what steps does the Minister taking together with Luton North, the together with Luton North, the Treasury and other departments to ensure that that key investment case for our area, including the missing midstream that is battery missing midstream that is battery active material production, will prevent us having to ship that wealth abroad and ensure that we

10:14

Q13. If he will take steps to help ensure Post Office provision in every community. (901510)

wealth abroad and ensure that we create those Cornish jobs back home. Hear, hear. >> Well, he and the other Cornish Labour MPs are incredible advocates

10:14

Kate Dearden MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Halifax, Labour )

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for critical minerals and the potential in the UK. The projects in that part of the world are in that part of the world are essential to our ambitions. We are supporting lithium projects in Cornwall, including an offer in Cornwall, including an offer in principle of £9.8 million through dry 35 for Geothermal Engineering Limited, as well as a £31 million Limited, as well as a £31 million equity investment through the National Wealth Fund and Cornish Lithium. And we will continue to work to ensure that we keep more of

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work to ensure that we keep more of that value in the UK. Rachael Maskell thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Question number 13.

10:14

Rachael Maskell MP (York Central, Labour )

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Mr. role that post offices play in communities across the UK. We've committed to maintaining the 11,500 national minimum branch requirement, and the government set access criteria, including the requirement that 90% of the UK population live that 90% of the UK population live within one mile of their nearest post office. We're backing this with up to £180 million in network subsidy funding over the next three years to support the cost of meeting these policy requirements, protecting access to crucial services.

10:15

Kate Dearden MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Halifax, Labour )

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Rachael Maskell. Post Office closed after 138 years, we were given assurances with WH Smith's that we would have a sustained solution. However, the sustained solution. However, the capital, which has taken over W H Smith's, closed their post office yesterday. We only have a teeny weeny post office in the city centre. We have businesses dependent on it, residents as well as tourism. We need a solution. I've met with the post office. They say six months to get a solution.

I need a solution to our post office now. What steps will she take to ensure we've got a temporary solution before we get our sustained outcome?

10:15

Q14. What steps his Department is taking with Cabinet colleagues to regulate artificial intelligence. (901511)

I recognise my hon. Friend's concerns about the availability of Post Office services in York City centre in the coming months. Post office has confirmed it remains committed to restoring a replacement branch, and has received interest from several potential applicants. Whilst these are operational matters for the Post Office, I will ask them to consider capacity concerns and will consider capacity concerns and will keep my hon. Friend at NASA officials to work with her and the Post Office in finding that raises.

raises.

10:16

Rt Hon Kanishka Narayan MP, Minister of State (Cabinet Office) (Jointly with the Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Technology) (Vale of Glamorgan, Labour)

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Olly Glover.

10:16

Olly Glover MP (Didcot and Wantage, Liberal Democrat)

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Madam Deputy Speaker, we have a series of areas of regulatory focus on artificial intelligence already on artificial intelligence already data protection, competition policy, equality legislation, online safety. And I was particularly proud that we were one of the first countries to make sure that the egregious impacts of AI chatbots and our children are mitigated against as well. As I've mentioned earlier in the week, I'm looking forward to working right across the House on any further regulatory measures required to tackle any harms of artificial intelligence.

10:16

Rt Hon Kanishka Narayan MP, Minister of State (Cabinet Office) (Jointly with the Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Technology) (Vale of Glamorgan, Labour)

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To Olly Glover. >> AI has the potential to transform science and research, including on campuses like Harwell and Culham in my Oxford, Oxfordshire, constituency. However, those benefits will only be realised if the risks of AI are taken seriously. So will the Minister support the call of over 85 parliamentarians for the government to use our 2027 G20 presidency to champion an international agreement to properly regulate AI and prohibit superintelligent AI development.

10:17

Q15. What steps he is taking to support businesses in the hospitality sector. (901513)

Well. advance of the column in particular to cite, I visited and take great pride in as a national asset for us on nuclear fusion and the combination of AI and energy innovation. On this particular point on the G20. I'm very proud, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the Madam Deputy Speaker, that the Prime Minister has set out that AI will be top of the agenda. We will be looking to play a leadership be looking to play a leadership role in making sure we arrive at a global code and principles for safe AI.

10:17

Kate Dearden MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Halifax, Labour )

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Sir Julian Smith.

10:17

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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Madam Minister. heart of our high streets, communities and our local economies supporting jobs and growth across the UK, and we recognise the the UK, and we recognise the pressures many continue to face. That is why we're providing targeted support for pubs, clubs targeted support for pubs, clubs and live music venues, including 15% business rates relief in 2627 and additional 20% discount from April next year. While reviewing pub and hotel valuations to help ensure a fairer, fairer and more ensure a fairer, fairer and more predictable business rate system.

We're also investing £10 million through a new hospitality grant scheme to support growth, create scheme to support growth, create jobs and strengthen local economies.

10:18

Kate Dearden MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Halifax, Labour )

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Julian Smith for the answer. As she knows, the hospitality sector in areas such as mine, provide the bulk of employment for young people. Could I urge you to look at the proposals from our front bench and also proposals from hospitality UK to provide a lower NICs rate at the upcoming Budget to allow those businesses to employ more young

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people. Minister. I thank the hon. Member for this. Hospitality, as he mentioned, is an absolute key employer of young people in the economy, providing rewarding routes into work. It's a critical sector to help us with resolving the crisis. It's a key priority for this government, and priority for this government, and we really want to work closely with the sector in providing those solutions. I'm sure he'll welcome

10:19

the announcement today of our significant intervention and partnership with the hospitality sector. Working closely with hospitality UK provide those job opportunities, new work experience programmes to turn this around, and hospitality is key to that.

10:19

Kate Dearden MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Halifax, Labour )

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Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I thank Ministers for their engagement? Following Carlsberg's devastating news about the closure devastating news about the closure of Marston's Brewery next year, this risk 310 jobs, along with our heritage ales from Burton like pedigree and bass, hospitality relies on brewing and brewing was left out of the industrial strategy and industrial energy schemes. Will this now be changed?

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Yeah. I thank my hon. Friend for his question. My heart sank when I question. My heart sank when I heard the news, and I pay a tribute to my hon. Friend for not only raising this today, but for all his raising this today, but for all his work in the sector since he came to this House and on behalf of his constituents, I spoke with the chief executive of Carlsberg chief executive of Carlsberg Britvic yesterday, and I know that the proposal to close the brewery has not been taken lightly.

He has not been taken lightly. He reassured me that the team at Burton have shown exceptional commitment, skill and professionalism and have made an enormous contribution to Burton

10:20

Bradley Thomas MP (Bromsgrove, Conservative)

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upon Trent s proud brewing tradition. This proposal is not a reflection on them or their quality of work. Consumer tastes are constantly evolving, and this proposal reflects the particular proposal reflects the particular long term challenges of cask ale that I know I've spoken to him about and will continue to work about and will continue to work with him closely on. I know it will be a concerning time for workers at Marston's recognise the impact that these proposals may have on these these proposals may have on these workers, their families and local communities as the company begins consulting. I look forward to discussing this further with him.

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Shadow Minister Bradley Thomas. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hospitality sector provides The hospitality sector provides around 300,000 jobs for young people every year and contributes people every year and contributes £96 billion annually to the economy. But despite this, the government continues to hammer them with a series of blows. To the extent that series of blows. To the extent that this sector has the highest effective tax rate of any sector in the economy, paying the equivalent

10:21

Kate Dearden MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Halifax, Labour )

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the economy, paying the equivalent of £0.82 of every £1 of pre-tax profit made in taxes. This eclipses the £0.50 average rate across our economies. 11 main sectors. Can the Minister outline what steps the government are taking to tangibly lower business costs, so that

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hospitality businesses can employ more young people? Yeah. My first job was in hospitality.

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My first job was in hospitality. I remember it fondly. It's given me the skills throughout my career and in my life. It supported my family in my life. It supported my family when we really needed them. I absolutely know the significance and importance of this sector, not just to our economy, but the just to our economy, but the difference it can make to people's lives and change them. They are a key employer of young people all across the country, and his across the country, and his constituency in mine and colleagues across this House, they provide that rewarding route into work and

10:21

Rt Hon Jonathan Reynolds MP, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade (Stalybridge and Hyde, Labour )

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a critical sector in resolving the crisis and many challenges we face across the country as we grow our economy. We want to grow the economy. We want to grow the hospitality sector. I work really closely with them and the hospitality Sector Council to make sure that we can look at all the sure that we can look at all the challenges, but also the opportunities, how we can work together to provide those more opportunities to provide those jobs, grow the sector in every grow the sector in every constituency across this country, and I'm determined to deliver that. Mierlo.

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Mierlo. Question number one. Madam Deputy Speaker. Madam Deputy Speaker, I have just led one of the largest trade missions we've ever sent to India, the fastest growing economy in the G20. I was joined by northern mayors, the Environment Secretary, the Scotland Secretary, and a great delegation of more than 200 businesses. We announced over £1 billion worth of new deals benefiting a host of British firms, including Menzies Aviation, Pan-asia and Oxford Nanopore. Since our trade agreement was signed, £12 billion of new business has been announced, supporting thousands of jobs and driving good growth in every postcode of our country.

During the visit, I co-chaired the Joint Economic and Trade Committee with Minister Goyal on tackling any remaining trade barriers and with our northern mayors. We also launched a UK Maharashtra Growth Partnership to foster closer regional ties and drive the creation of high value jobs in both our countries. This is just the start. Our FTA is forecast to boost start. Our FTA is forecast to boost bilateral trade by over £25 billion a year. We have opened the door. Madam Deputy Speaker and businesses are walking through it, with government backing them every step of the way.

Freddie Van Mierlo. Diamond Light Source facility and ISIS neutron facility near my constituency of Henley and Thame. They're on the front line of cuts to the Stfc. And now there are concerns that further savings may be required. Can the Minister confirm to the House today that these facilities will remain open and operational by the end of the financial year and through to 2028?

10:23

Alex McIntyre MP (Gloucester, Labour)

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I'm grateful to the question. >> I'm grateful to the question. This champion of science. I would revert to the comments I made about the scale of investment this the scale of investment this government is making in science and R&D, and the prioritisation of funding, which comes from, firstly, funding, which comes from, firstly, a science based assessment. There is an element in funding the defence package where we've had to find the money from the former DSIT Budget to do that.

I'll write about any concerns he has, but I reiterate this is a government and a country committed to science.

10:24

Kate Dearden MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Halifax, Labour )

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Alex McIntyre. with the Chief executive of Ofcom, with colleagues from this House, to of. >> Effectiveness of their enforcement action in improving enforcement action in improving Royal Mail services in my constituency in Gloucester, getting post every couple of weeks. At best, people are missing hospital people are missing hospital appointments, they're missing important legal deadlines and quite frankly, they're wondering whether they should put their Christmas cards in the post this week so that they might arrive in time for the 25th of December.

Will the Minister. Will the Minister set out how we can actually ensure that Ofcom have the powers to effectively enforce the USO, so that Royal Mail constituency?

10:24

Julia Lopez MP (Hornchurch and Upminster, Conservative)

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Preston should be really on point, Minister.

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I want to thank him and colleagues on the side of the House for their work on this. I agree that Royal Mail Service has been unacceptable for too long, and the pace of improvement must increase. My constituents share exactly the same frustrations. The government same frustrations. The government expects Ofcom to use its full range of existing tools to secure better outcomes for postal users, and I'll

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continue to work closely with them and with colleagues in this House to deliver that. Shadow Secretary of State Julia Speaker.

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Speaker. The Secretary of State confessed. Last month. That business leaders have urged him not to return to the political uncertainty around our relationship with the EU. The Prime Minister has now completely ignored him and them, now completely ignored him and them, and says the UK could pursue a customs union.

10:25

Rt Hon Jonathan Reynolds MP, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade (Stalybridge and Hyde, Labour )

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As a. back in. He clearly was not. In the 2017 2018 Parliament. Madam Deputy Speaker, he's barely been in this one. So can the Secretary of State tell businesses which of these prime. Which of these is the Prime Minister's preferred option?

10:25

Julia Lopez MP (Hornchurch and Upminster, Conservative)

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I'm grateful for that question. I'm proud of the trade deals this government has done with the rest of the world. We've talked about India, the Gulf, South Korea, Switzerland. We've retained the Switzerland. We've retained the membership of TPP. But there is uncertainty that comes from actions on the European side. This is the Prime Minister's point. The Made in Prime Minister's point. The Made in Europe agenda is one of great uncertainty to UK businesses. It's primarily about automotive and aerospace at this stage, but it runs through some 50 different bits of EU legislation.

The Prime Minister was right first of all, to have an aspiration of a closer trading relationship with the EU. I support that entirely, consistently with our work with the rest of the world, but also to get to a point where we remove uncertainty by getting clarity on what this will mean for the long term future of Union.

10:26

Rt Hon Jonathan Reynolds MP, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade (Stalybridge and Hyde, Labour )

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Julia Lopez the Secretary of State could not say what the Prime State could not say what the Prime Minister's preferred relationship is. I think that's because the Prime Minister himself doesn't actually have a clue. Now, the Business Secretary trumpeted today Business Secretary trumpeted today the free trade agreement struck with India. He's been taking northern mayors and a rep from Man City on his trip this week to expand it. Sir Keir Starmer spoke about his pride and relief at telling Jaguar Land Rover workers that he had struck a trade deal with America on cars that would save their jobs. Now these deals are possible because we are not in the EU. So can the Secretary of State guarantee that the Prime Minister will offer no concessions in the UK? EU trade talks underway that could jeopardise our non EU

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trade deals. First of all, I'd just say we took 200 businesses to India. The took 200 businesses to India. The mayors took their own delegations. The Manchester City representative came with the mayor of Greater Manchester rather than me. So I Manchester rather than me. So I would just like to put that on the record to avoid any any lack of clarity about it. Yes. Look, again, clarity about it. Yes. Look, again, I say a lot of the things that were promised by the conservative government, they weren't able to deliver on trade, were delivered and have been delivered by this government.

Of course, I am proud about that. But the fact is, the Prime Minister is right, first of all, to have that aspiration for a closer trading relationship. Seven of our major top ten trading partners are of the EU member partners are of the EU member states, and to seek clarity for the future. That is what he's doing and I support him in that.

10:27

Chris Ward MP (Brighton Kemptown and Peacehaven, Labour)

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Mr. Ward.

10:27

Rt Hon Jonathan Reynolds MP, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade (Stalybridge and Hyde, Labour )

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I know the Secretary of State and the Minister enjoy a good pub as much as the next person. So do they share my concern that in Brighton Kemptown and Peacehaven, our pubs and hospitality sector is under real strain and that we've recently lost two iconic LGBTQ plus bars, Charles Street Tap and R bar. So will they come to the South coast, meet with me and local businesses and see what more we can do to support our hospitality and pub sector.

10:28

Sarah Olney MP (Richmond Park, Liberal Democrat)

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I'm grateful to my hon. Friend for the question, and I do for the question, and I do recognise that the specific issues in Brighton about what the closure of our bar and Charles Street Tap will mean for Brighton's LGBTQ plus community. The government does recognise the needs of hospitality. We've talked in this session about lower business rates. We've also talked about the doubling of employment allowance. But of course I want to work with him and I'm grateful to raising it directly with me.

And no one ever turns down a visit to Brighton. So we'll see if we can get that sorted. Olney.

10:28

Rt Hon Jonathan Reynolds MP, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade (Stalybridge and Hyde, Labour )

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Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. On Monday, the Deputy Speaker. On Monday, the Prime Minister joined the Liberal Democrats in acknowledging that, refusing to countenance closer UK relations with the EU would be a relations with the EU would be a dereliction of duty. However, the government remain committed to their red lines, joining the single market and a new UK EU customs union could boost UK GDP by at least 3.6% and result in around £27 billion a year in extra tax revenue. So would the Secretary of State not agree with me that by refusing to cross these red lines while knowing the damage that Brexit continues to cause to businesses up and down the country is in fact a dereliction of duty?

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Well, I would say when I reflect on my first year doing this job after the election, there was some after the election, there was some mixed advice from Liberal Democrats on trade at various times, particularly on our engagement with the US and with the EU. I do the US and with the EU. I do believe our package of measures that forms the basis of the UK, EU reset is ambitious. I mean, if you look at SPS agreement, what that look at SPS agreement, what that would mean for small businesses, for the hon.

Ladies constituency, for all of us would make a fundamental difference. So of fundamental difference. So of course, we're right to recognise it has been very hard for business. There is more red tape for people exporting to our major export market. We've got to recognise that. But I really do get frustrated at times when people don't acknowledge times when people don't acknowledge the kinds of things that already form. Part of these negotiations would make a difference to British businesses, and I think we'll have businesses, and I think we'll have more ambitions, our own views on how that should go.

There's an ambitious package that we should all get behind.

10:29

Chris McDonald MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Stockton North, Labour)

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Callum Anderson.

10:30

Martin Vickers MP (Brigg and Immingham, Conservative)

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Thank you. Taskforce, which I established last year, finalised our investment prospectus, setting out all the opportunities that our town offers. opportunities that our town offers. Will the Minister meet with me and the taskforce to discuss how we can work together to attract the new business and jobs that ensures that

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business and jobs that ensures that we deliver growth in our postcode? Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. Well, I'd like to commend my hon. Friend for the work of the Bletchley Investment Task Force and thank him for the very many letters that he sent me, updating me on the work of the taskforce. I learned about Bletchley strengths in innovation, advanced manufacturing and digital technologies all aligned with our technologies all aligned with our industrial strategy. So of course I'd be very keen to come and meet the investment task force, and perhaps we can talk about how the perhaps we can talk about how the work of the Ox-cam growth corridor can Lincoln and bring more investment to Bletchley.

10:30

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To Martin Vickers.

10:30

Daniel Francis MP (Bexleyheath and Crayford, Labour)

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Tomorrow I will be in Scunthorpe to attend a meeting of the Council led British Steel Development Board. led British Steel Development Board. Is the Secretary of State in a position to give me some positive

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news that I can pass on? I was also in Scunthorpe very recently, meeting with British recently, meeting with British Steel Management and the unions. I think the positive news we can give them is now in place. As chair is working hard to stabilise operations, improve

10:31

Kate Dearden MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Halifax, Labour )

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Health and safety and develop >> Health and safety and develop that long term plan, which I know he has worked so hard with us to achieve.

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Speaker. Over the last year, I've also had countless constituents contact me about the adequacy of postal me about the adequacy of postal delivery services across Bexleyheath and Crayford. Along with colleagues, I met with the chief executive of Ofcom yesterday chief executive of Ofcom yesterday to look at what more they can do. But could the Minister please outline what assessment has been

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outline what assessment has been taken of the adequacy of those services across Scotland, and what more the government can do to help my constituents? I thank.

10:31

Rt Hon Robert Jenrick MP (Newark, Reform UK)

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>> I thank. >> My hon. Friend for raising this on behalf of his constituents and the frustrations that I know he shares, and they do, too. I've been clear with Royal Mail that its quality and service has been unacceptable for too long. I understand the concerns in the hon. Member's constituency relate to the Bexleyheath delivery office, and I know that he met with Royal Mail this summer, and I encourage all members to raise their concerns directly with its management and simply hold the company to account, as I will continue to do.

His constituents deserve a reliable postal service and a right to deserve better.

10:32

Josh Newbury MP (Cannock Chase, Labour)

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Mark Hendrick. >> Mark Hendrick. >> Sean Egan. From Morrisons in Walsall. >> Gary McArthur from Sainsbury's in Wycombe, Jorge Costa from Sainsbury's in Hertford. These are all workers who were sacked by their employers for confronting shoplifters. One Gary. Just hours after he'd applied CPR to the store's only security guard who would otherwise have died. Does the Secretary of State agree with me that these workers deserve their jobs back, and that we do need greater protection for workers who just do the right thing and confront shoplifters?

10:32

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I'm more than happy to look into the case as the hon. Gentleman the case as the hon. Gentleman raises, and we'll be in touch with him about it. >> Josh Newbury thank. >> You very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. When I visited Alpro and Novara oat milk over the summer, I heard how rising energy costs are putting pressure on food manufacturers with knock on effects for their supply chain and ultimately on food inflation. Given the importance of these energy intensive industries to our economy, how's the department helping British manufacturers remain competitive, attract investment and mitigate rising food production costs?

10:33

Chris Law MP (Dundee Central, Scottish National Party)

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So I know he's a great champion for that sector in particular. As has been said, the British Industrial Competitiveness Scheme is open now. In addition to that, we will be reviewing the supercharger later in the year and we will be working very closely with the food manufacturing sector as we do that.

10:33

Rt Hon Jonathan Reynolds MP, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade (Stalybridge and Hyde, Labour )

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Chris Law. legally binding climate commitments and contributing to global climate disaster, the approval of Rosebank will result in a UK continue to facilitate illegal Israeli facilitate illegal Israeli settlements in Palestine being complicit in breaches international law. The Israeli energy company Delek Group, who owns Ithaca Energy, has been named in the UN list of businesses whose activities in the West Bank have raised human rights concerns, and they receive over 200 million in revenue from the Rosebank field. Given Norway's sovereign wealth fund and largest pension fund have already divested from Delek.

Will the Secretary of State confirm that dialect Group limited will be one of the companies sanctioned for its role in illegal settlement expansion?

10:34

Henry Tufnell MP (Mid and South Pembrokeshire, Labour)

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Madam Deputy Speaker. Hon. Gentleman knows licensing of North Sea oil fields is a matter for the Energy Secretary. But in relation Energy Secretary. But in relation to his point about our announcement around sanctions for illegal Israeli settlements, I think we've made it clear and consistent stand. We've talked about how the legal regime for that will be the regime that the one that provide more certainty. It will have real consequences. It's not just a symbolic gesture. I won't comment on any individual company, but I think if the hon.

Gentleman's intentions and aspirations are for strong action in this area, this government is providing it. Henry Speaker.

10:34

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I welcome the government's >> I welcome the government's support for British industry, including through the British Industrial Competitive Scheme. However, the oil refinery sector is not included within this scheme, threatening thousands of jobs and our national energy security. So will the Secretary of State consider expanding the scope of the scheme and also reviewing its broader eligibility requirements for.

10:35

Tessa Munt MP (Wells and Mendip Hills, Liberal Democrat)

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Well. consistent support for the refining industry. I have been meeting with that industry this week discussing issues, including the energy issues that he mentions. We recognise the sector is facing real challenges. The work to consider the impacts and the feasibility of bringing refined products, for example, into the scope of the UK Cbam remains ongoing and will certainly continue to engage with him on energy costs and other issues.

10:35

Rt Hon Jonathan Reynolds MP, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade (Stalybridge and Hyde, Labour )

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Tessa Munt. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> By Truth. >> Paddocks, a family run camping business on the outskirts of cheddar, which welcomes over 20,000 visitors a year and supports more visitors a year and supports more than 50 jobs and their business rates liability this year has rates liability this year has increased by almost 2,700%, from £1,070 per annum to £28,820 per annum, with no meaningful warning and no chance to plan for this catastrophic hike.

Will the Minister or the Secretary of State meet with me to discuss what can be done in rural Somerset, where so many businesses depend on hospitality and tourism, but really cannot take this kind of kicking? cannot take this kind of kicking?

10:36

Rt Hon Kanishka Narayan MP, Minister of State (Cabinet Office) (Jointly with the Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Technology) (Vale of Glamorgan, Labour)

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Well, that was obviously dramatic figures, I assume, through revaluation and will endeavour to get the contact, perhaps with the Treasury rather than this Department, to support our constituency.

10:36

Christine Jardine MP (Edinburgh West, Liberal Democrat)

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Committee chair, Liam Byrne.

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On Tuesday, the head of MI5 warned that AI could help terrorists develop bioweapons while terrorists develop bioweapons while in committee. OpenAI and anthropic told us that statutory AI safety controls are now essential. We are blessed to have the AI Security blessed to have the AI Security Institute in this country, but it's no longer enough. So will Ministers confirm that we will have government amendments at Report stage of the Cyber Resilience Bill to ensure that we have statutory AI protections to keep this country hon.

10:37

Rt Hon Jonathan Reynolds MP, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade (Stalybridge and Hyde, Labour )

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Friend for his advocacy and leadership on this matter over the course of the last many weeks as well. I have mentioned already this well. I have mentioned already this week that I want to work with parliamentarians across the House, including him and his Committee on including him and his Committee on Ideas for the Cybersecurity and Resilience bill, looking in particular at protections on AI security. Christine Jardine.

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security. Christine Jardine. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. A lot of work is being done in Scotland and Edinburgh, Glasgow and elsewhere to develop a space culture. Space technology. Satellite technology. With the controversy this week about the potential interference with Ukrainian war effort using satellite technology. Is the government intending. Stepping up the investment and support for research and development in this

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area in the interests of our own national security? I was very much hoping for a

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I was very much hoping for a space question, and I'm very grateful to the hon. Lady. Space is, I think, one of the most exciting and fundamental horizontal technologies for our economy. I recently attended the International Space Summit in Paris. About that Space Summit in Paris. About that we launched our space strategy. Scotland is key to this. You will know about the Saxavord US launch capacity investment, and I can capacity investment, and I can assure her we'll keep her involved in the progress of this successful strategy.

10:38

Leigh Ingham MP (Stafford, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It will surprise no one in this House to hear that. I believe growth in every postcode should growth in every postcode should start in our towns. So would the Minister please tell me what we are doing to support brilliant businesses like Hill Helicopters in my constituency? Grow, thrive and export.

10:38

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Yes. I spent a fantastic day >> Yes. I spent a fantastic day with the aerospace industry last week, and over and over again they spoke so enthusiastically about 80. And the investments we are putting into that sector. I pay tribute to the company she mentioned in her constituency. Advanced manufacturing of all sorts is one manufacturing of all sorts is one of the things we are really great at in this country, which is why we are backing it with the industrial strategy.

10:38

Rt Hon Jonathan Reynolds MP, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade (Stalybridge and Hyde, Labour )

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Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Last month. McLaren announced. A £500 million investment. Which will create 1000. Jobs, particularly. Beneficial in my constituency.

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Of Woking. I know the Secretary of. State visited the constituency to share in that good news. What steps is he in that good news. What steps is he and the government taking to ensure McLaren and other businesses can expand like that?

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expand like that? Well, it was always a pleasure to visit McLaren and I was delighted it was part of a investment in the automotive sector investment in the automotive sector this month of £850 million alone, incredibly strong and supportive investments that reflect the incentives we put in place in the industrial strategy. I know there is a specific issue locally on making sure that investment happens. We're talking to the company about that and of course, our trade, our innovation, our wider business innovation, our wider business agenda is all about supporting successful businesses.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

10:39

me in congratulating Malcolm Wilson OBE and the team at M-Sport in

10:39

Rt Hon Jonathan Reynolds MP, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade (Stalybridge and Hyde, Labour )

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OBE and the team at M-Sport in Dovenby on securing the Ford World Rally Car Championship programme? Creating new skilled jobs for

10:39

Susan Murray MP (Mid Dunbartonshire, Liberal Democrat)

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Creating new skilled jobs for Cumbria. And can the Secretary of State tell us what support the Department can provide to help high Department can provide to help high performance automotive firms like M-Sport create skilled apprenticeships for our young people?

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I will. Thoroughly endorse that. I believe he and I have once campaigned quite close to where the business is based, and it's

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brilliant news and reflects the tremendous industrial heritage of Cumbria. I thank.

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I thank. You, Madam. Deputy Speaker. I suspect I'm going to add to the Secretary of State's frustration when I ask, on behalf frustration when I ask, on behalf of Scottish food and drink exporters, who still face paperwork and border checks that did not

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and border checks that did not exist before breakfast. Breakfast is. Hungry. Hungry?

10:40

Rt Hon Jonathan Reynolds MP, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade (Stalybridge and Hyde, Labour )

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>> Yes. >> If growth is the mission, if growth is the mission, will the Secretary of State open talks on a customs union with the EU?

10:40

Alison Hume MP (Scarborough and Whitby, Labour)

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Mr. speaker, we can all go for breakfast soon. Of course, I understand, particularly on food understand, particularly on food and agriculture. That's part of the EU, UK reset to do that. I would also point to, for instance, the tremendous opportunities we've created. If you look at the tariff on Scottish whisky in India, 150% down to 75%, then 40% in time, Scottish salmon as well is part of that. So I promise her we are always championing in every market the interests of her constituents.

10:40

Rt Hon Jonathan Reynolds MP, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade (Stalybridge and Hyde, Labour )

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I think. >> Boulby underground laboratory in North Yorkshire is competing to host XLZD, a prestigious physics experiment that could deliver Nobel Prize winning discoveries in the UK. In the light of the stfc cuts. Can the Minister reaffirm the government's commitment to securing

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the XL z d dark matter experiment for the UK? Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It's quite a number of years since I was underground at Boulby, but I do remember the experience and how do remember the experience and how important that dark matter laboratory is. And this particular issue that will be mine is that they've increased their capacity they've increased their capacity there. And so their rental charges have gone up and within the scope of their existing Budget. That means about a half £1 million of means about a half £1 million of their £1 million operating Budget has been taken forward into the £4 million overall Budget that they have, and the government has funded the development of X, of the laboratory that she describes.

And until 2020 728, if the UK is successful, law that would require additional funding above and beyond additional funding above and beyond existing budgets.

10:42

Chris McDonald MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Stockton North, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. There is much interest from aerospace companies in the 1950s. Blue Streak launch facilities at RAF Spadeadam in my constituency. Can I ask the Minister what assessment has been made of UK sites for the potential of developing heavy lift rocket testing in the UK? And will he meet with me to discuss the potential of Spadeadam? Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. Spadeadam is of course, another amazing facility that I have visited in recent years, and she's quite right.

There is the potential there, and I do agree potential there, and I do agree with her that a full assessment of this, alongside our other launch facility in the Shetland Shetland Islands must be made Euan Stainbank.

10:42

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I think. to avoid this incredibly well positioned site lying vacant. What interventions did the government prepared to make? The Seemlessly secured new industry and new jobs for this site? And more broadly, the Grangemouth Industrial Complex this side of 2030. this side of 2030.

10:43

Kate Dearden MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Halifax, Labour )

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Well, he's a constant advocate for Grangemouth site. Last night I met with the National Wealth Fund with the office for investment and with the office for investment and my officials to push forward on this. We have a task force meeting on Monday where, amongst other on Monday where, amongst other things, we will be pushing for faster action to prepare the groundwork for investment so that groundwork for investment so that we can deploy the £200 million from the national wealth fund that we have set aside.

10:43

Perran Moon MP (Camborne and Redruth, Labour)

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Jayne Kirkham.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Truro lost. Its. Post Office. Last week as well, without. A. Temporary alternative.

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Temporary alternative. Would the Minister consider consulting with the Post. Office on alternatives. When this happens in main cities and looking again at that franchise model, which seems to leave post office branches very vulnerable?

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office branches very vulnerable? I thank her for raising this and bring it to my attention. I'd be further. Halesowen.

10:43

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>> Halesowen. >> Madam Deputy. >> Speaker plans to revive Cornish tin and tungsten mining are well advanced with the support of the National Wealth Fund, but tin ore tungsten, were it to be brought to the surface today, would have to be shipped to the other side of the world for refining and process processing, with only a fraction coming back to the UK and seriously coming back to the UK and seriously increased costs. When Cornish MPs meet with Ministers next week, can we discuss plans from government to invest in domestic refinement of tin and tungsten? tin and tungsten?

10:44

Ian Lavery MP (Blyth and Ashington, Labour)

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Well, absolutely discuss that, as he knows, because he talks to me about this at every available opportunity. We are determined to make sure that more of the value of that entire process remains in the UK, which is why we are putting £50 million on the table for exactly that sort of development work. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Royal Mail Sorting Office is in Blyth and Ashington. In my patch or in absolute chaos. They're in meltdown.

I'm really concerned that

10:44

Kate Dearden MP, Minister of State (Department for Business, Innovation, Science and Trade) (Halifax, Labour )

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someone in my patch is going to end up in a tragic situation because of up in a tragic situation because of the lack of service. What? I met with the Royal Mail on numerous occasions. There's been no change occasions. There's been no change whatsoever. In fact, it's getting worse. What kind of Minister do to remedy the situation before remedy the situation before somebody needs to be accountable for a very serious situation?

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for a very serious situation? I thank my hon. Friend for his question. I share his frustrations and concerns, whether it's the biggest issue in my inbox and constituency colleagues that I've heard from across the House, it's clear, and I've made very frank in my discussions with the Royal Mail CEO. They have to do better. They have to deliver improvements at a much quicker pace. I'll continue working with him to make sure we can deliver for his constituents and those across the country that need a reliable postal service.

10:45

Urgent question: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will make a statement on the Sustainable Farming Incentive

That is the end. Of business innovation, science and trade questions. I'll give the questions. I'll give the Frontbenches a moment to shuffle Urgent Urgent Question Urgent Question Robbie Urgent Question Robbie Moore.

10:45

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. To ask.

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Food and Rural Affairs. If she. Will make a statement. On the sustainable farming incentive. Minister. Thank you.

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Thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker. In summer 2024, we inherited an SFI scheme from the previous conservative government with no Budget control and no proper alignment of SFI actions to environmental sustainability targets. The farming schemes were underspent, meaning millions of underspent, meaning millions of pounds were not going to farming businesses. This government implemented many improvements to SFI 26 to make it more focussed, more transparent and fairer so that as many farmers as possible can benefit from agreements. For example, we introduced a new rule that each farm business can only have one SFI 26 agreement, which cannot exceed £100,000 per year. We streamline the number of SFI actions to remove complexity, while still having plenty of actions available for all farm types. We held our first application window earlier in summer, which was only open to two groups small farms and also farms without existing environmental land management revenue agreements. Window two of the Sustainable Farming Incentive 2026 opened on the morning of

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Tuesday, the 22nd. Of. September 2026, and closed at

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September 2026, and closed at 3:48 p.m. on the same day. It was open to all farmers and land managers with at least three managers with at least three hectares of agricultural land. Now I recognise some farmers who wanted I recognise some farmers who wanted to join SFI, 26, will be disappointed not to have secured an disappointed not to have secured an agreement this year. There was an exceptional demand for SFI 26, which demonstrates farmers desire to invest in an environment because healthy soils and thriving habitats are fundamental for farm profitability, productivity, sustainability and resilience.

In anticipation of high demand, we allocated additional £20 million to window two on top of the £50 million announced by the Prime Minister in August, so we could fund as many agreements as possible. We have therefore allocated a total of £310 million to nearly 19,000 new agreements across both application windows and SFI 26, including £253 million and 12,200 new agreements through window two. We now have 70,000 multi-year agreements in place. These agreements will invest a total of £930 million in environmental sustainable farming over the next three years.

Nearly £1 billion of investment in nature friendly farming, as part of £11.8 billion in funding for sustainable farming in this Parliament. We plan to offer an SFI scheme in 2027, and we will look to open the 2027 offer as early as possible to ensure farmers can access funding. We are already looking to make changes to improve FSI for next year, continuing our close work with farmers and stakeholders by listening to

10:49

Robbie Moore MP (Keighley and Ilkley, Conservative)

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experiences and learning lessons from this window. In keeping with the commitments made in the Farming the commitments made in the Farming Roadmap 2050, we plan to offer an SFI scheme in 2027. As part of this, SFI scheme in 2027. As part of this, we are scrapping the first come, first served application process for SFI in 2027. We will look to for SFI in 2027. We will look to open the 2027 window as early as possible to ensure farmers can access funding, and we will work access funding, and we will work with farming representative organisations, including the NFU, to consider how we refine the scheme for SFI 27, as set out in the farming roadmap published earlier this year. This government is committed to a farming sector

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resilient. Hear, hear.

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Hear, hear. Madam Deputy Speaker, I cannot stress enough just how bad the mishandling of the sustainable mishandling of the sustainable farming incentive has been under this Labour government. It has been this Labour government. It has been a complete and utter mess, and our hard working farmers and nature have once again lost out. Under have once again lost out. Under this Labour government. But it was not without warning, lots of warning being given to this government well in advance.

After 18 months of inaction following the government's choice to close the scheme in March 2025, for the first time ever, the scheme was changed to operate on a first come, first served basis, making it competitive with no quality control simply based on who could press send first. The consequence? A build up of nearly 40,000 farmers trying to get into the scheme when it finally opened, but only 12,200 were successful. The application window closed within 5.5 hours after it was opened.

After all the money had gone. Farmers had been designing their applications for months, and many are now even under more financial and emotional strain. So I ask the Minister, given the value of the expiring agreements, was over £520 million and the Budget for SFI 26 was significantly reduced to £310 million. Can the Minister explain whether £210 million has gone? With so many farmers being locked out of the scheme, clarity and certainty for next steps is needed now.

So can the Minister confirm when applications for SFI 27 will open? Will he publish a forward plan now so that farmers can start preparing? What support will he give those with expiring agreements to minimise gaps in cash flow? And what Budget has the Minister allocated for SFI 27, so that he can be certain that we will not see this same debacle all over again? The Minister has now had a month to reflect on these issues. Our farmers want answers now, not more warm words or surveys being given out by the farming Minister saying that he is in listening mode.

Answers are needed right now to the questions that have been raised. Minister.

10:52

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am not going to claim that the I am not going to claim that the scheme is perfect or it is working. Or is it what we want it to be? But this is a scheme we inherited from the previous government, and it's one we are fixing under them. Just a quarter of the funding went to 4% of farms offer large ones with no targeting. We have already made changes to address that, with a window earlier this year, specifically for small farms and those that had not participated in the scheme before.

If they thought the scheme wasn't working, why didn't they do anything to fix it when they were in years of power? And if they didn't think that it should be a first come, first served approach, then why didn't they change it? I mean, I noticed that the shadow environment secretary said at party conference, and I quote, after 18 months of inaction, Labour chose to design the scheme for the first time ever on a first come, first serve basis. I mean, this simply isn't true, and I'd encourage him to correct the record.

And as I say, it's a bit rich that he's coming here today with all these different things. He could have done something to change this when he had the opportunity to do so. So they couldn't even get all the funding out the door, leaving money on the table when it should have been going into farmers pockets. And I won't accept that criticism. Madam Deputy Speaker, this scheme was designed by them, but we are fixing it and that's what I will continue doing.

10:53

Daniel Zeichner MP (Cambridge, Labour)

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Daniel Zeichner thank you, madam. >> Parliament. >> The plain truth is it was a complex scheme, but the particularly the IT systems weren't in place to administer it properly. And the frontbench know that. And these IT systems take years to develop. So colleagues at the RPA have done a heroic job working around using existing systems. That is why it is so difficult to make this scheme work. The very difficult circumstances across the country. So does my hon.

Friend agree with me that a little contrition on the other side will be welcome as we try and fix this system.

10:54

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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I thank my hon. Friend for his question and also place on the question and also place on the public record the hard work that he undertook as Minister of State in the Department. He was a tremendous contributor to many of the things that I've now inherited to deliver for our country. He's absolutely right to point out the hypocrisy of the party opposite on the SFI scheme, and I remind him that, of course, it was Michael Gove who I think first introduced the first come, first served approach.

And I also want to pay tribute to the hard work of the RPA, who have worked incredibly hard to level up applications and demand we've seen on this scheme, and I look forward to working with him as we make further improvements to ensure the success of the scheme next year.

10:54

Sarah Dyke MP (Glastonbury and Somerton, Liberal Democrat)

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Liberal Democrat spokesperson >> Liberal Democrat spokesperson Sarah. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. SFI is the foundation of resilient food system and it resilient food system and it delivers for nature. When it closed without warning last year, the Liberal Democrats warned of the damage to farm finances and our environmental goals. Now farmers face a two tier system once again. Clare Farms, near Puckington. Her Countryside Stewardship Scheme agreement is ending and SFI was meant to be the her way forward.

Now farmers deserve better than a Glastonbury ticket scramble. So I welcome the end of first come, first served, but a fairer queue for the same small pot just changes. Who gets turned away. The Liberal Democrats would back farmers with an extra billion pounds a year to produce food and protect nature, not choose between them. With the Budget just two weeks away. Will the Minister back our call and press the Chancellor to fund SFI properly?

10:55

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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I thank the shadow spokesperson for her contribution and the constructive way that she's been constructive way that she's been engaging with me and my department on these issues. I absolutely recognise it's been an incredibly challenging time for farmers, and I mentioned in the outset some of the funding that we have been putting in to sustainable farming. 11.8 billion over this Parliament. And I mentioned the significant figure this year alone via various schemes. 2.3 billion has been made available for farming Budget this year.

I will certainly take on board the points that she's raised and reflect on that as we design the scheme for next year, and look forward to working closely with her on next steps.

10:56

Markus Campbell-Savours MP (Penrith and Solway, Labour)

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Markus Campbell-Savours thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Isn't it you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Isn't it time we simply admit that the SFI experiment has failed? The last government could not get the money out the door. We now have an IT system so bad we might as well not have a door. Farmers don't believe it's fair. They don't believe it's getting to those that need support or believe it's delivering the public goods it's stated to. Perhaps we should start again. Reconsider a universal baseline with basic.

With best practice conditions.

10:56

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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Mr. >> Mr. >> I thank my hon. Friend for his question. I know he's yet to write to me on any issues that his to me on any issues that his farmers have raised on SFI 26, and I'd encourage him to do so. I meant it when I said it in my opening remarks, that I'm really keen to work in partnership with others to design a scheme that works for farmers next year. I look forward to his proactive engagement with me in order to get the scheme right next year.

Carmichael. Speaker.

10:57

Rt Hon Alistair Carmichael MP (Orkney and Shetland, Liberal Democrat)

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So just. >> How many applications did the Department expect they would receive when they opened the window? receive when they opened the window? A the soil benchmark, the farming software platform, publicly estimated that there would be about 40,000 applications. And they thought that there would be Budget for about 15,000 successful ones. In the event, it was about 12,000. So Soil Benchmark could do that calculation. Why didn't the department or did the department do department or did the department do that calculation? And did they then open the scheme in the knowledge that approximately two thirds to three quarters would be disappointed at the end of it?

10:57

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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Minister.

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I thank the chair of the Select Committee for his measured intervention and look forward to being before the Select Committee being before the Select Committee later this month. We obviously anticipated there would be high demand for the scheme this year, demand for the scheme this year, hence the reason why we had two windows and increased funding for the overall pot to 310 million. Obviously mentioned earlier, the the window two and the window two process. Defra expected a strong initial demand and made it clear initial demand and made it clear before the window opened that its duration would depend on the rate of applications.

Ministers obviously allocated the 50 million and then the additional 20 million as well. We're really keen to learn from all in the sector on what we can do to improve the scheme going forward, and I look forward to his contributions in due course.

10:58

Josh Newbury MP (Cannock Chase, Labour)

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Josh Newbury. seen some of my comments on this situation already, and I could ask many questions, but I'll limit myself to this one. Many would be applicants once again experienced technical issues, and those who phoned the Rural Payments Agency reported hours long wait times, and I hope that his team are looking into that. The department has said that there will be a further, very limited window for those who had technical issues, but could the Minister tell the House whether that only includes those who were able to speak to someone and report those issues, or whether it will also include those who, frankly, gave up when they knew they'd have agent.

10:58

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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My hon. Friend for his question, and indeed, the way he's been engaging with me in terms of engaging with me in terms of thinking through the design for the scheme for next year, he's right to say that some farmers reported technical issues on the application technical issues on the application service, which prevented them from applying. It's normal to receive these reports after the application window is closed. Some of them will be valid. The RPA is currently working through them as we speak. If he has any particular examples If he has any particular examples he wants to share with me, I can certainly take those away and raise the questions with relevant officials in my department.

11:00

Rt Hon Sir Roger Gale MP (Herne Bay and Sandwich, Conservative)

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Sir Roger Gale.

11:00

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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Kent was once rightly regarded as the Garden of England. Faced with intolerable pressures upon their finances. Many of the small farmers in Kent, having looked to the sustainability scheme for help and having been denied it, and now having to sell their land for housing and other development, further denying us national sustainability and food. Can the Minister tell the House how many Minister tell the House how many farmers in Kent are benefiting from the scheme?

11:00

Minister.

11:01

Douglas Lumsden MP (Aberdeen South, Conservative)

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question. We are publishing the figures for applications across counties and constituencies, so I counties and constituencies, so I can certainly make that information available to him. More broadly, he makes the point around the demands that farmers are facing, and our farming roadmap, published earlier this year, is a 25 year plan to commit to a more profitable, productive sector and building resilience in the farming community. And I'm very keen to work in

11:01

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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And I'm very keen to work in partnership with the farmers in his constituency and area to make sure that is delivered.

11:01

Ms Julie Minns MP (Carlisle, Labour)

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Madam Deputy Speaker, when the Shadow Minister next gets to the despatch box, I hope he will despatch box, I hope he will withdraw the inaccuracy that the scheme was, for the first time ever, built on a first come, first serve basis. This is simply not the case and they know it. Does the Minister agree that farmers deserve better than the rewriting of history from the party that left a half built, half baked transition? And can the

11:02

Rt Hon John Glen MP (Salisbury, Conservative)

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half baked transition? And can the Minister expand a little bit more on his plans to reform the RPA in time for SFR 27?

11:02

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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I thank my hon. Friend for his question. He's a real champion for

11:02

Ms Julie Minns MP (Carlisle, Labour)

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farmers in his constituency, and it's very evident from the contributions that he makes, which opposition for the action or inaction that they took when they had the opportunity to take forward work to improve the lives of work to improve the lives of farmers across our country. I'm very happy to meet with him on the specific points that he raises to

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make sure that I have his insight year. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Most farmers.

11:03

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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Invest in a plan over several years, and there are over 12,000 who have been in receipt of previous grants who were unable to fulfil what they expected this year. What thoughts does the Minister have on those individuals where significant sums of money already invested through the taxpayer will essentially go to waste? And with the RPA, what, what what's he going to publish in terms of the barriers? Most farmers get very frustrated that they can't work out what they've done wrong.

Minister. they've done wrong. Minister.

11:03

Calum Miller MP (Bicester and Woodstock, Liberal Democrat)

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I thank the right hon. Member for his question and the way that he's engaging in these issues. Obviously, our annual report sets out how we spend the farming Budget. If he's not yet had a chance to see that, I encourage him to do so. And on the specific points around the RPA and issues and frustrations of

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farmers in his constituency, I'll certainly take that back to the department and look into those issues that he's raised. Julie Minns thank you, Madam

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Julie Minns thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The government was absolutely right to redesign the SFI to prioritise smaller farming SFI to prioritise smaller farming businesses so that taxpayer money supports more farms. However, in Cumbria, 54% of the land is less Cumbria, 54% of the land is less favourable, which means that my farmers have to hold more land in order to get a viable farm, pushing order to get a viable farm, pushing them into the window. Two. Will the Minister, when he looks at the next SFI, please ensure that it recognises that acreage alone should not determine which window farmers apply in?

11:04

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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I thank my friend for her question. It's a real pleasure to have met her recently on some of the particular challenges that her constituency is facing, and wider issues around bluetongue and other matters. I will certainly bear in mind the constructive points that she's raised today as we design the scheme for next year.

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Speaker. My constituent, Anthony Henman farms peg top farm at Woodeaton. He has SFI agreements that expire in March of next year. When I spoke to him this morning, he told me that these are vital to us. We can't survive without them. Does the Minister understand the huge pressure facing our farmers, not pressure facing our farmers, not least in light of the extraordinary global price of fertilisers, and that many of them are simply on the edge? And what assurances can I

11:04

edge? And what assurances can I give Anthony and other farmers in my constituency that the SFI 27

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will be announced early? Adequately funded and properly managed. I thank the hon. Member for his question. I absolutely recognise the difficult year that farmers have faced across the country and indeed in his own constituency, and indeed in his own constituency, and that's why I'm keen to open SFI 27 as early as possible, and I gave that assurance earlier from Dispatch Box. It's worth noting Dispatch Box. It's worth noting that this year, through all the schemes, 2.3 billion is going into the farming Budget and over the the farming Budget and over the lifetime of this Parliament, 11.8 billion.

But certainly keen to hear any further thoughts as we design the scheme for next year.

11:04

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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Madam Deputy Speaker, the fundamental problem is that for years our country hasn't allocated years our country hasn't allocated enough of our national resources to growing food in a way that boosts biodiversity. We've now got a nature crisis that is increasingly a threat to our national security. We need every farm that can to do We need every farm that can to do more on nature friendly farming. So can the Minister reassure me that his department is talking to the his department is talking to the Treasury about securing greater investment in SFI going forward?

11:05

Rebecca Smith MP (South West Devon, Conservative)

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I thank my hon. Friend for his question. He will know that we were responding to our settlement from Treasury and therefore, you know, Treasury and therefore, you know, there's always more we can do, and that's why we published our farming roadmap earlier this year, which sets out the direction of travel. sets out the direction of travel. We want to take around building a more resilient, productive farming sector, working in partnership with the sector to deliver nature friendly farming.

11:06

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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Rebecca Smith. spent the day with the Minister, so therefore, it was unsurprising that on the 22nd of September he went to

11:06

Joe Morris MP (Hexham, Labour)

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market. However, he got home at 350 in the afternoon to complete his agreement that had already been agreement that had already been worked on, to find that he was two minutes too late and £50,000 down as a result. He said to me, I am as a result. He said to me, I am jumping mad. This is a insert expletive here. Show. How can anyone be expected to manage a anyone be expected to manage a small business and compete in a fastest to the button lottery like this? I just wonder how the Minister would have felt if he had

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Minister would have felt if he had to apply for his parliamentary seat in that way. Yeah. Well, I. Thank the hon. Member for her question and for her encouragement for me to visit Dartmoor recently. I know she wasn't able to join me on that visit, but it was very insightful visit and I absolutely recognise the human difficulties being for farmers that haven't been able to apply for the scheme this year. If she's got particular examples, as she's just described.

She wanted to feed into me. It's She wanted to feed into me. It's really important that I hear those, so I thank her again and there is obviously wider support available for farmers, which we can signpost for farmers, which we can signpost people to via the blog post on the DEFRA website.

11:06

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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Joe Morris thank.

11:07

Charlie Dewhirst MP (Bridlington and The Wolds, Conservative)

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friend for Carlisle said, upland farms, by the very nature have to be larger. I met with upland farmers in Northumberland recently farmers in Northumberland recently and I heard from them their frustration that no one of SFI were excluded. Them simply because their excluded. Them simply because their farms were too big geographically to be included within it. So can he commit to working with myself, working with other Northumberland MPs, working with my friend from Carlisle, but also working with the NFU uplands Group to ensure that a redesigned scheme properly supports

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upland farms. Minister. I thank my friend for his question, the way that he's been engaging with me already on learning lessons from SFI 26 and for convening colleagues in. In doing so, uplands are an area of doing so, uplands are an area of priority for me. I'm very impressed by the work that Doctor Hilary Cottam's been doing in Dartmoor. And obviously we're looking to to deliver that scheme elsewhere in the country. It's absolutely something that I want to take something that I want to take forward with him and I look forward to doing so.

11:07

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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Charlie Dewhirst thank.

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Fact of the matter is that this scheme portal opened at 10 a.m. closed at. 3:48 p.m. at a time when most

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3:48 p.m. at a time when most farmers are at work, and for agents representing farmers, that was simply not enough time to fill in simply not enough time to fill in multiple applications. So a very simple question to the Minister Will you apologise?

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Yes, Minister. I thank the Member for his

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I thank the Member for his question. The scheme was what it was. We inherited a mess from the previous administration. I am keen to learn lessons from what worked and as I recognised earlier, I appreciate the heartache it's caused many farmers and therefore there's more action we need to take.

11:07

Adam Dance MP (Yeovil, Liberal Democrat)

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Adam Dance thank you, Madam. >> Adam Dance thank you, Madam. >> Deputy Speaker, because SFI way to funding closed. >> Within hours. Many Yeovil farmers were shut out despite being prepared. That included Tim, who was awarded Water Quality Farmer of the year literally the same day. Does the Minister recognise that even farmers who are being awarded for environmentally friendly land management are now left in a financial hole? So what is the government going to do to encourage sustainable farming in Yeovil?

11:08

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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Minister? to our farming roadmap, which sets out the long term vision for delivering a more nature friendly farming sector. This year alone, as I mentioned, we've announced 2.3 billion extra, well, 2.3 billion going into farming Budget, with 11.8 billion going in over the lifetime of this Parliament. There are other schemes available for farmers, and I'd encourage him to to look at the Defra blog, which sets out those details further.

11:08

Greg Smith MP (Mid Buckinghamshire, Conservative)

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Greg Smith thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. hands enough at the attitude to farming of this government, this latest debacle, turning something so important to our farmers so important to our farmers livelihoods into some sort of perverse six hour first fingers on the buzzers game show has them even more in despair. I'm afraid the minister's nothing to see here. Answers that he's given this afternoon will cause even more distress. So perhaps he can engage with some of the detail. My hon. Friend the Shadow Minister asked him a very, very specific question about the £210 million difference between the value of expiring agreements valued at over £520 million and the £310 million SFI Budget. Where is that difference and where is it going to be spent and when?

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Minister Madam Deputy Speaker I'll take no lectures from the party opposite. And the fact that party opposite. And the fact that they had a scheme that was half baked and even deliver anything, or put money in the pockets of farmers.

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put money in the pockets of farmers. Robert Jenrick I went to my agricultural shows in Nottinghamshire in August. All the Nottinghamshire in August. All the farmers told me that this was going to be a complete shambles and it was a complete shambles. This isn't

11:09

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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was a complete shambles. This isn't a surprise. Everyone knew this was going to be a disaster, and we've just heard in an answer to the previous question, that the Minister knew this was going to be massively oversubscribed, and yet he proceeded. He said the scheme he proceeded. He said the scheme was half cocked, but he's now put his own name to it. Is he going to his own name to it. Is he going to apologise for the complete fiasco that he has put my farmers through? And what is he going to do next And what is he going to do next year to ensure this insult is never applied again?

11:10

Rt Hon Robert Jenrick MP (Newark, Reform UK)

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Minister. the previous conservative government that designed this scheme. But I mean, if he wants to be constructive and engage with my department on any particular examples of how we can improve the scheme going forward, I'd like to hear from him. Madam.

11:10

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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Deputy Speaker. >> I've worked with him to secure funding on schools when he was a school Minister. So does he understand, and will he simply say sorry to those small farmers who were out working in Hinckley and Bosworth, up and down the country, who don't have a land agent to get it in within six hours? Will he show some contrition and simply say show some contrition and simply say that on his watch this scheme didn't work? He'll learn the lessons and simply say sorry.

11:10

Dr Luke Evans MP (Hinckley and Bosworth, Conservative)

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Yeah, Minister.

11:10

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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I said at the outset, Madam Deputy Speaker, it's been a brutal year for farmers across our country, year for farmers across our country, with drought, with input costs rising and obviously various other rising and obviously various other factors as well. I hear those messages loud and clear from the regular engagement I have with the regular engagement I have with the farming community. We need to learn lessons, but I remind him that most of the scheme we inherited from the previous government Caroline Voaden.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Minister. Recently visited Dartmoor and Richard, a farmer on Dartmoor, was Richard, a farmer on Dartmoor, was just one of the many farmers who wrote to me following the SFI scheme to say that he. His farm, scheme to say that he. His farm, which which protects and enhances the beauty and the environmental the beauty and the environmental environment of. Of Dartmoor. They've been in a scheme for 30 years and they lost out on this application.

And he and his wife

11:11

Caroline Voaden MP (South Devon, Liberal Democrat)

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application. And he and his wife are now seriously wondering how they're going to make ends meet. And I've heard from numerous other farmers who have lost out, whose schemes will now end and don't know how they're going to survive. I frustrations from farmers in her constituency, that I encourage her to get in touch with me, because it's really important that we do learn lessons from the scheme this learn lessons from the scheme this year as we continue to make improvements for next year. Speaker.

11:13

Jerome Mayhew MP (Broadland and Fakenham, Conservative)

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I refer to the register.

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Does the Minister have any idea how long it takes to design and then apply for an SFI and all that chucked away in a six and six hour lottery? And his response today, and he's got his back to me. He's not even listening to the question. His response today has been symbolic of the shrugged shoulders attitude of the lanyard classes to farmers for far too long. He's had two and a half years to fix this two and a half years to fix this problem.

If he if, as he says, he inherited it, does he understand even the boiling sense of frustration and anger that farmers have?

11:13

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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Yes. >> Minister. >> I thank the hon. Member for his question. I'm engaging all the time with farmers across the country and with farmers across the country and with their representatives. They are at the heart of our redesign of the scheme for next year, with workshops starting today. And I've already met with representatives from the NFU and been on farms, listening to farmers and their views about those that applied and those that were unable to do so. Absolutely understand the frustrations that people feel, but I'm committed to improving it for the future.

11:13

Dr Ellie Chowns MP (North Herefordshire, Green Party)

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To Ellie Chowns. >> To Ellie Chowns. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Minister knows because I wrote to him the day after this latest to him the day after this latest SFI shambles, that farmers in North Herefordshire are livid about this problem. Farmers in Ogle pictured Huddleston, Lindley Green, Kimbolton, Dilwyn and more have all written to me to tell me not only that they're hopping mad, but they're also distressed and depressed at the devastating impact that this is having on their livelihoods and their prospects of continuing to run their farms.

So will the Minister recognise that farmers do need to hear? Sorry. Yes, they need support. They need sustainability and certainty, not a lottery of fingers on the buzzers. And fundamentally, they do need direct answers to these questions. Why is there less money available now under this than there was previously? Why did the government not learn the lessons from the failure last year? And what are they going to do to genuinely own this problem?

11:14

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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Minister. >> I don't accept that we haven't learned lessons from the past, and that's why we made a number of changes for SFI 26. As I set out in changes for SFI 26. As I set out in the outset of my statement today. And of course, I am sorry if people applied for the scheme and were unsuccessful. And I understand people's frustrations, and that's right.

11:15

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Doctor Andrew Murrison. >> Deputy speaker, many. >> Farmers in. >> Wiltshire are marginal.

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Wiltshire are marginal. At best, and now. They're. Having to divert investment into

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a pot to pay future inheritance taxes. They honestly are being pushed over. The edge.

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The edge. What does the Minister think this latest is going to do for this latest is going to do for their businesses? And what assessment has he made? Regardless assessment has he made? Regardless of attribution of blame on how many farms are actually going to be sold farms are actually going to be sold up, that families will pack up and go away as a result of this latest round of Defra incompetence?

11:15

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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I thank the Member for his >> I thank the Member for his question. As I said at the outset, it's worth noting that £2.3 billion has been made available for the farming Budget this year, with £11.8 billion for sustainable farming throughout the lifetime of this Parliament. If he's got particular examples he wants to share with me in terms of farmers that have been unable to apply for SFI 26, I encourage him to share those with me. For the first time since the Second World War, a government has published a farming roadmap to bring certainty to the sector, and I'm busy getting on delivering that, working in partnership with the sector to ensure profitable, productive and a more resilient farming sector for the future.

11:16

Mike Martin MP (Tunbridge Wells, Liberal Democrat)

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Mike Martin. security is national security and without playing the blame game, the ineptness of the scheme does cause British farms to close. And you know, the extreme farmers to commit suicide. I wonder if the Minister agrees with that principle that food security is national security. And could you explain to the House how he takes that principle forward in his work, in doing things like administering schemes like this?

11:16

Rt Hon Wendy Morton MP (Aldridge-Brownhills, Conservative)

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I thank the Member for his question and absolutely appreciate the difficulty that farmers have faced this year. And, you know, the challenges that many have faced with regards to applying for the scheme this year. As our manifesto says, food security is national security. And, you know, we're working through what that looks like in the department. But certainly through the roadmap, we set out a clear vision for the future to bring certainty and consistency to the sector.

11:17

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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Wendy Morton thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. At a time when the government really should be government really should be supporting the producers of our food and the guardians of our countryside, they saw fit to open the new SFI scheme offer and then close it down after just six hours. Will he acknowledge that his government got this wrong? Will he provide a roadmap, a forward look for the farmers, detailing what the next scheme will be, give them more notice and assure them that and this House that they will have more time next time round.

11:17

Tessa Munt MP (Wells and Mendip Hills, Liberal Democrat)

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Yeah, yeah.

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I thank the hon. Member for her question. And I mentioned at the outset that it was her government that introduced the first come, that introduced the first come, first served approach, but absolutely key keen to make sure we absolutely key keen to make sure we make changes and improvements for future years. And if she's got practical ideas about how we make that happen, I'd be delighted to

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that happen, I'd be delighted to hear from her. Tessa Munt thank. You, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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You, Madam Deputy Speaker. I just I wanted to point out to the Minister that a lot of the farmers in my area have terrible difficulties with buffering broadband access. Internet access is poor, and I had actually thought that those who had agents were the lucky ones. But I was informed

11:18

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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quite neatly after I'd said something about this, on the fact that actually most of the agents only managed to get eight, nine, only managed to get eight, nine, ten applications in in a very short window that was available. So that wasn't the case. He's mentioned the fact that he's going to be running workshops with farmers, but has he actually asked the Rural Payments Agency to do a high speed review, because he's not got very much time before 2027, so that the barriers

11:18

Sir Ashley Fox MP (Bridgwater, Conservative)

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to applicants, particularly those who had expiring agreements and have. >> A question? Minister?

11:19

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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I thank the Member for her question, and I can assure her that I've obviously met with the RPA on I've obviously met with the RPA on lessons learned from the scheme and what worked well this year, and we will do the analysis of what the

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applications tell us. So Ashley Fox. Madam Deputy Speaker farmers across Somerset have been left without certainty and support by this latest snafu by Defra, and they will not be consoled by the thought of a workshop. How does the Minister envisage farmers will be able to plan financially for the year ahead, if they don't know when the next round is, or how the funds will be allocated?

11:19

Gideon Amos MP (Taunton and Wellington, Liberal Democrat)

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We will publish more information about future rounds in due course. He would have heard my message that He would have heard my message that we're keen to open SFI 27 as early as possible into the new year. There are lots of ways that farmers There are lots of ways that farmers can feed in their thoughts and views on the scheme for the future, and indeed there are other funding schemes available for farmers, so I do encourage him to check the DEFRA blog for that information.

11:20

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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Gideon Amos speaker. >> Last week from North Kerry, Stokes, Saint Gregory and surrounding areas were visibly shaken by the economic impacts shaken by the economic impacts they're facing. The price of diesel and this latest debacle has been disastrous for farmers. They are considering ripping out the trees and and margins that were planted under previous funding initiatives, because they simply won't be able to continue without the funding being provided under this initiative, which seems to have only gone to around 12, ten, 12% of farms in the country.

Can the farms in the country. Can the Minister tell me what should what he would, what he would have me say to those farmers about the loss of the wildlife that they've already put in?

11:20

Alicia Kearns MP (Rutland and Stamford, Conservative)

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Minister. member to discuss those issues.

11:20

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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Alicia Kearns speaker, The NFU and farmers were a klaxon on the and farmers were a klaxon on the impending car crash that unravelled the words of a local farmer a debacle, the words of a Labour MP having had no decency to warn having had no decency to warn farmers that are coming today was an opportunity for humility rather than gaslighting, that some of the technical complaints only some were legitimate. Will the Minister at least now publish a transparent least now publish a transparent breakdown of how the farming Budget in its entirety is being spent? Because that is the least that Because that is the least that farmers deserve after this debacle?

11:21

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Yeah. question. Obviously, our annual report sets out how the farming Budget is spent, and when we announce future rounds of schemes, we set out the overall Budget available. I mentioned earlier the amount available that was for SFI this year. We will continue to be as transparent as we possibly can farmers.

11:21

Stephen Morgan MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Portsmouth South, Labour)

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Final question. >> Jim Shannon thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Thank you, Minister, for his answers. While the sustainable farming incentive sustainable farming incentive applies specifically to England, the funding allocation underpinning it directly impacts upon devolved it directly impacts upon devolved regions. And given that the Ulster Farmers Union, I declare an interest as a member, has expressed severe concern over long term stability of the multi-year agricultural Budget and the transition away from direct support. What discussions has the Minister had with the Dear Minister and the Northern Ireland Assembly to ensure that the unique family farm structure in Northern Ireland is strengthened and protected within strengthened and protected within the Barnett consequentials and the UK wide funding envelopes, and to help towards soaring costs.

Thank you so much. you so much.

11:22

Perran Moon MP (Camborne and Redruth, Labour)

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I always appreciate a question from my hon. Friend and will certainly look into the issues that he describes, but he will know that farming is a devolved matter, but he will know my commitment to working in partnership with the Northern Ireland government and have already met with my counterparts in Northern Ireland.

11:22

Ms Nusrat Ghani MP (Sussex Weald, Conservative)

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Point of order. Earlier, the Shadow Minister may have inadvertently led the House by stating that for the first time, this scheme was changed to operate on a first come, first serve basis. That is simply not the case. First come, first serve was set up under the Conservatives. Can the Deputy

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Speaker advise how the record may be corrected? I thank the hon. Member for his

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I thank the hon. Member for his point of order. Members themselves are responsible for what they say in the chamber and not the chair. If the shadow Minister wishes to clarify his earlier remarks that it is for him, but he needs to keep it

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short because I do not want to continue the debate. Shadow Minister. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. As a matter of fact, when the SFI As a matter of fact, when the SFI window was closed under this Labour government in March of 2025, that process in itself led to a huge demand that came up to September this time, therefore making it competitive and first come, first scenario.

11:23

Business Statement: Business Questions to the Leader of the House

We are not going to continue the debate. Order! Order! We are not debate. Order! Order! We are not going to continue the debate. The urgent question is over. The front bench may wish to shuffle over. Right. If we're ready for business Right. If we're ready for business questions, I call the shadow leader Jesse Norman.

11:24

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Will the leader give the House the business leader? Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The business for the week commencing the 19th of October will include Monday the 19th of October. Committee of the whole House of the Northern Ireland Troubles Bill, day one, Tuesday the 20th of October. Conclusion of Committee and remaining stages of the Northern Ireland Troubles Bill. Wednesday, the 21st of October. Consideration of an allocation of time motion followed by all stages of the church appointments. Repeal of Discriminatory Provisions Bill followed by an opposition day, a half day opposition day on a motion in the name of the Liberal Democrats, subject to be announced Thursday, the 22nd of October. Tributes to the Clerk of the House, followed by a general debate on Black History Month on Friday the 23rd of October. The House will not be sitting the provisional business for the week commencing the 26th of October will include Monday the 26th of October. A general debate on the performance of Royal Mail, followed by a general debate on the emerging risks of advanced AI. The subjects for these debates, determined by the backbench Business Committee. Tuesday the 27th of October Second Reading of the building safety, remediation of unsafe cladding, etc. Bill. Wednesday the 28th of October. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will deliver his Budget statement Thursday the 29th of October. Continuation of the Budget debate on Friday the 30th of

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sitting. Shadow leader Jesse Norman.

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Shadow leader Jesse Norman. I thank the leader very much for the business. Madam Deputy Speaker, let me associate myself, first of all, with everything that's been all, with everything that's been said in the previous debate about the fiasco of the sustainable the fiasco of the sustainable farming incentive we meet today on farming incentive we meet today on the fifth anniversary of the death, the murder of Sir David Amos. I know all colleagues will want to join me in celebrating David, his perennial optimism, his beaming smile, his enormous gift for friendship and his unfailing energy in assisting and supporting his constituents.

The independent report into his murder, led by Sir

11:26

Rt Hon Jesse Norman MP (Hereford and South Herefordshire, Conservative)

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Robert Buckland, cannot come too soon. I have three matters to raise. The first relates indirectly to David Amos, as the leader will know at Prime Minister's Questions. Yesterday, the Prime Minister

11:26

Ms Nusrat Ghani MP (Sussex Weald, Conservative)

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Yesterday, the Prime Minister described the man charged with the murder of our former colleague Ann murder of our former colleague Ann Widdecombe, as the man responsible for her murder. That statement breached the legal presumption of

11:26

Rt Hon Jesse Norman MP (Hereford and South Herefordshire, Conservative)

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breached the legal presumption of innocence, discussed a case which is subjudice and misled the House. It must have been inadvertent, but there has been no clarification yet.

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We don't accuse each other of misleading the House inadvertently

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is the word we use. Prior to that. Jesse Norman. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. As I think I said, it's inadvertent whatever took place, but there's been no clarification from the been no clarification from the Prime Minister or any Minister, no withdrawal of the remark and no apology. That is deeply apology. That is deeply disrepectful disrespectful of this House and of the chair. Will the leader now correct the record, withdraw the remark and apologise on behalf of the Prime Minister? Secondly, as the House will know, Manchester City has been found guilty by an independent commission of 114 of the 115 charges brought against it by the Premier League, including inaccurate financial reporting, undisclosed remuneration and failure to co-operate with the investigations this week.

Having previously been neutral on the issue, the Prime Minister sought to distance himself personally from the club and its owners, but otherwise he and Ministers have remained remarkably quiet, especially since his own club, Everton, had an eight point deduction for two breaches. That's 112 fewer than have been found here just three years ago. So can the leader set out the government's position? Does it regard these breaches as extremely serious, or does it believe that a few eggs may have been broken? But broadly speaking, everything is all right? And when will we get a statement from the Sports Minister on this subject? Finally, last November, I highlighted the severe flooding suffered by us.

Harold. In my constituency, homes were inundated. People and businesses were evacuated. Families left with huge financial and emotional costs. Insurance premiums have gone up where insurance remains available at all. The school, the doctor's surgery and access for emergency services were cut off. Other nearby villages, including Clodock, Kentchurch and Altirhinus, were similarly afflicted. But now, 11 months later, despite an all parties meeting, which I convened last March and repeated representations to Ministers to the Environment Agency and Herefordshire Council, there has been no substantive progress.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the government's own office for science believes El Nino is likely to be bigger than ever this year. My constituents are deeply anxious that floods this winter will drive them yet again from their homes and businesses. Fixing this does not require some vast engineering project. Better drainage, watercourse maintenance, management of runoff and other practical mitigations could all make the difference. But the residents are in a catch 22 situation that will be familiar to many people across this House.

No one in authority is taking any responsibility, but they are not allowed by law to help themselves. The works could all be done legally, quickly and effectively this year by local companies at less than

11:30

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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half the cost of the EA's framework contractors, but that is prohibited. contractors, but that is prohibited. No one will come to the aid of these people, but put one foot into the watercourse just to clear the the watercourse just to clear the debris, and they risk prosecution. I've made a final a formal Budget submission to the Chancellor on submission to the Chancellor on this matter. Will the leader now take it up personally with the Chancellor in the Environment Secretary and make funding this Secretary and make funding this scheme the first order of business for the government's new Flood Resilience Task Force?

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Leader of the House thank. You. Madam Deputy Speaker. My first of all, associate myself absolutely with the comments of the shadow Leader of the House with regard to Leader of the House with regard to Sir David Amos. As he said, today is the anniversary, the fifth anniversary of his tragic murder. anniversary of his tragic murder. And I know that the thoughts of the whole House will remain with his whole House will remain with his loved ones. He was well regarded on both sides of the house. He was a mentor to lots of new members and a fantastic constituency MP, and what happened was an absolute tragedy. Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to welcome members back to the House after the conference recess and congratulate the new member for Holborn and St Pancras to her place as she joined us on Monday. It's also good, Madam Deputy Speaker, to see the shadow leader in his place. We missed him earlier in the week and I was concerned that he was still in the half empty conference hall in Birmingham, wondering whether the shadow Chancellor had actually finished his speech or not. It was a busy conference season, and at the Labour conference, the Prime Minister made several important announcements, including outlining plans for a national care service which will provide the elderly with free personal care. The government has also announced that the triple lock will remain until the end of this Parliament, following which it will be adjusted,

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not least to pay for the new National Care Service. Now, I don't blame the official opposition for doing this because opposition for doing this because partly it's their job. But they did jump in very quickly to oppose any change to the triple lock. And I change to the triple lock. And I find that quite surprising, Madam Deputy Speaker, because in August Deputy Speaker, because in August 2021, the shadow wrote a comment piece entitled Unpick the Triple piece entitled Unpick the Triple Lock.

And I understand that this view that it should be unpicked is shared by the current Shadow Secretary for communities and at least one former Chancellor. And it appears to me, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the party opposite are really tying themselves in knots on this matter. And it would be very helpful if the Leader of the Opposition, or someone from her shadow Cabinet, came to the House to clear up the confusion. I want to turn to the the Budget, and I did announce in the forthcoming business the date of the Budget and the beginning of the debate, which will be followed.

And in that debate, I hope that the House will be able to reflect on Britain's economic outlook. And to that end, the House's attention to the positive report of the IMF this week upgrading our growth to 1.3% this year, joint second highest in the G7. Also, the comments of the IMF's chief economist who said that the UK stands out. His words, not mine on deficit reduction. With our deficit falling significantly more than other G7 nations. And also other good news this morning, with GDP having grown more than expected, we're not complacent, Madam Deputy Speaker, but the Chancellor is absolutely focussed on priorities to boost business, help with the cost of living and support people in every postcode, all underpinned by the fiscal discipline which characterises this government.

I also want to talk about Flood Action Week and this ties in really with what the right hon. Gentleman said about the situation in his constituency. On Monday marked the start of Flood Action Week, and the government has invested £4.2 billion in flood protection measures. And with new targets to improve flood protection for 200,000 properties. We've also launched the Flood Action online portal on Monday, which brings together clear, actionable guidance for people to check their flood risk and find the latest weather alerts.

This is an issue which has been raised regularly at business questions by members from both sides of the House, and I thank them for doing so. That does not address the particular issue that the right hon. Gentleman rightly raised on behalf of his constituents. So let me say two things further on flooding. One is that if he wants to make his case to the floods, Minister, I will arrange for him to do so. And he asks about making representation to the Chancellor.

I'll make sure that the Chancellor, he is what he has said today. I'm not going to say, obviously, because I don't know what is in the Budget, but I will make sure that the Chancellor hears that. In terms of the other points that he made, I'm not sure that he's been characteristically fair, as he normally is, because the Prime Minister has acknowledged that he misspoke. The the right hon. Gentleman was out quite quickly and rightly to make his case yesterday, and the Prime Minister did respond.

He said that he misspoke, he has apologised and he has corrected the record. And I think, Madam Deputy Speaker, that there's there isn't an excuse for misspeaking in the House. And I'm not trying to explain that away. But this Prime Minister is characterised by an authenticity and a passion in the way that he responds. It's not unusual either for prime Ministers or for anybody else to speak in the House, as long as you correct the record, which he has done, then I think that that should be put into perspective.

He also raises the issue of Manchester City, and the Prime Minister, again, has been characteristically very clear about this. He's made clear that the initial judgement on the club is very serious, and that there is no one suggesting that anybody is above the rules. There

11:36

David Burton-Sampson MP (Southend West and Leigh, Labour)

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is an ongoing independent process. It's important that it is allowed to run its course as quickly and as fairly as possible. And at the end of that, if the Sports Minister needs to come to make a statement needs to come to make a statement needs to come to make a statement to this I'm quite sure that she'll do that. have.

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have. Pointed out today is indeed the fifth anniversary of the tragic murder of Sir David Amess. In my constituency, and my thoughts today are with his family, his conservative colleagues here and in Southend, and indeed, all colleagues and constituents who knew Sir David as his plaque behind

11:37

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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me says may his light remain. The Children's Parliament was founded by Sir David Amess, and it was a by Sir David Amess, and it was a project that was really close to his heart, and I'm delighted that his heart, and I'm delighted that today, on this anniversary, we're going to be joined by the current child MPs here in Parliament today. child MPs here in Parliament today. And I'm sure it's going to be a really lively debate. So will the really lively debate.

So will the leader join me in celebrating the enthusiasm of these children, who are showing a keen interest in democracy at a young age?

11:37

Bobby Dean MP (Carshalton and Wallington, Liberal Democrat)

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Here? about David Amess, and also recognise the importance that Sir David gave to involving young people in our parliamentary process. And to that end, I welcome them to the House today. I wish them well in everything that they do, and it's important that we support them, not just learning about the political process, but perhaps exploring how they can contribute more to it.

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Yeah, but Democrats spokesperson Bobby Dean. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And can I join the House in this And can I join the House in this tribute to Sir David Amess? It's clear how well loved he was across the house. And our thoughts are the house. And our thoughts are with his family. And on today, the House also mentioned the party conference season. And I think conference season. And I think Liberal Democrats want to warmly welcome the Prime Minister's moving towards our positions on Europe, social care and electoral reform at social care and electoral reform at a conference.

We urge him to go further and faster on all three fronts. Not not appreciated by these benches over here, but we certainly appreciate progress on Europe's social care and electoral reform. Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to raise an issue today that I think is an emerging scandal, and it's relating to the treatment of Hong Kongers entitled to British national overseas status. Now, the UK obviously has a historic commitment to those people with the promise of democracy being maintained in Hong Kong or a pathway to the UK itself for those citizens.

And many, of course, have taken that up. However, we've received reports that many BNO applications have now been refused on the basis of past convictions made in Hong Kong. Now, UK rules state that if their conviction is an offence in the UK and the sentence is for longer than 12 months, then that should result in an automatic refusal. And some Hong Kongers were convicted for longer than 12 months for the offence of rioting, which is an offence in the UK.

But of course they weren't really rioting, they were engaging in peaceful democratic protest. Now we've raised these concerns directly with the Home Office, and

11:39

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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they say that discretion can be applied, but the guidance we've seen says otherwise. And the fact is, we know that people are now being rejected on this basis. And to add insult to injury, these rejection letters say that these rejection letters say that these decisions have been made by a competent foreign court. I hope the Liberal House agree that this would Liberal House agree that this would be a betrayal of the UK's historic commitment to these people, and so can he organise for the Ministers

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to issue clear guidance about the specific discretion that is required in these cases? Yes. Thank you.

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Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm sure the House won't have missed the opening comment of the hon. Gentleman when he talked about his Gentleman when he talked about his party's positions on Europe. It's not unusual for the Lib Dems to not unusual for the Lib Dems to have many positions on many things. In terms of conference, I I'm sure, In terms of conference, I I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm sure he enjoyed his conference, not least because he probably got more sleep when he was probably got more sleep when he was there than he might have done with a young child at home.

But there we are. But what I would say is a difference between our conference and his is that our leader of the party came out strengthened from our conference. I'm not sure. I'm not sure the Lib Dems can say the same on the serious matter, on the serious matter which he raises because it is a serious matter. We have granted over 230,000 visas under the British National Overseas Visa route, and we are honouring our commitment to supporting Hong Kongers. Facing political pressure, we remain committed to supporting Hong Kong residents and welcoming eligible applications.

Under the

11:41

Torcuil Crichton MP (Na h-Eileanan an Iar, Labour)

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scheme, every application involving a prior conviction is assessed a prior conviction is assessed individually on its merits and we are ensuring that actions which are not considered criminal offences not considered criminal offences under UK law, do not bar applicants from safety. But I give him my word from safety. But I give him my word that I will go back to the Home Office and if that needs to be clarified, then I will draw that to

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their attention. Torcuil Crichton Deputy Speaker. The Western Isles have been struck this week by maritime tragedy with the sinking of the fishing vessel Kilde in a Tuesday night storm off the coast of Lewes, with what is feared is the subsequent loss of three souls aboard. Can I pay thanks and tribute to the Coast Guard officers, the RNLI, crews, helicopters and police officers who are still involved in the search for two of these missing men.

These winds and events like this cut deeply into our communities and leave salted wounds of grief. I think of Ness Barvas and Carloway and homes and villages that these crews left from,

11:42

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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and that pain of grief will be echoed in other coastal communities across the country. All those who fish will mourn and they that fish will mourn and they that spread their nets on the ocean will languish. And for that reason, can languish. And for that reason, can I ask the Leader of the House to join me in expressing deep condolences to the families and communities affected, and to all communities affected, and to all the other families and fishers who touch that razor's edge of the deep touch that razor's edge of the deep every day and for our good. Go down to the sea in ships.

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Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm sure the whole House will join me and the hon. Gentleman in extending our the hon. Gentleman in extending our most heartfelt condolences to the friends and families of those who have lost their lives. I want to join him in paying tribute to the brave members of the RNLI and brave members of the RNLI and coastguards involved in the search and rescue, and as a coastal MP myself, and it's coming up to the myself, and it's coming up to the 60th anniversary of the loss of the gall, the biggest single trawler

11:43

Bob Blackman MP (Harrow East, Conservative)

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loss in the industry's history, and loss in the industry's history, and six men were from my constituency and we marked that event over the summer. I know absolutely the summer. I know absolutely the importance of loss and how it felt to fishing communities, and I know to fishing communities, and I know how important the work of the RNLI and Coastguard are and how deeply appreciated they are.

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Backbench Business Committee chair Bob Blackman. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I join with others in paying tribute to the late Sir David Davis. He was always here for business questions. With a topical question and a smile on his face. I thank the leader for announcing the business for the 26th of October in the chamber and given the experience this week on Monday of the baby loss awareness debate, I thank him for giving protected time for that debate given, as you all know, Madam Deputy Speaker, the debate on the performance of Royal Mail, given business and trade questions this morning is likely to be extremely well attended.

I would ask if the leader could consider giving protected time for those two debates, particularly if there are going to be government statements or urgent questions. Now, the business in Westminster Hall for next week for the 20th of October will be a debate on manufacturing skills. On Thursday, the 22nd of October, there will be a Select Committee statement from the Science, Innovation and Technology Committee, followed by a debate on compensation for Equitable Life policyholders, followed by a debate on the legacy of the Jarrow Crusade on the 90th anniversary on the 27th of October, there will be a debate on recognising the production and serving of cask ale as an intangible cultural heritage.

Personally, I prefer drinking about it, drinking it rather than talking about it. On Thursday the the 29th, the. There'll be a debate on mandatory safeguarding 24 over seven helipads at major trauma centres, followed by a debate on the role and effectiveness of Ofcom. Now, Madam Speaker, a couple of House notes. We are short of a Labour member on the committee and I hope that that that can be filled quickly, because we had a problem this week where we had the bare quorum in order to to do our business.

I'll also say that we did have an application for obviously for Black History Month. I note that this is now a government debate. The risk here is, however, the Frontbenches get two bites at the cherry, which is reduces the time for backbenchers to contribute. This would have been a backbench business debate led by the backbenches, but I understand completely that the leader wants to offer that as a general debate. Now I'm just Deputy Speaker. We are in the course of Navratri, a celebration for Hindus across the world, and it's a joyous occasion.

We are literally halfway through it. But last Saturday I attended the World Sindhi Congress, and this week I received a delegation of ex Bangladeshi politicians and senators. They raised the same issue and that the plight of Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh is is desperate right now. I received messages literally every day of atrocities committed against the Hindu population of Bangladesh and Pakistan. Now, I know the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is and Commonwealth Office is obviously concentrating on the illegal war between Russia and Ukraine and the crisis in the Middle East.

But could we have a statement on what the government is going to do to help protect these minorities in Pakistan and in Bangladesh?

11:46

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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DfE Leader of the House Madam Deputy Speaker.

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I thank the hon. Gentleman for his work chairing the committee and indeed, the work of the whole indeed, the work of the whole committee. In terms of the baby loss debate, I think there was an element of discipline this time, element of discipline this time, which was it wasn't just it was it was timed, allocated time, but there was an element of discipline there was an element of discipline which I welcome. I don't think it was perfect, but I think we are getting there.

Now, bear in mind what he says about Monday the 26th. what he says about Monday the 26th. But but my initial reaction is it isn't always either necessary or welcome that we have a time for a guaranteed time for debates. I think maybe we should take on on a case by case basis, but I'll give some thought to what he says. I also take away the point about making sure that the committee has full membership, and I'll seek to ensure that this is resolved as quickly as possible.

And I'll also raise with the frontbench spokespersons on Black History Month to bear in mind what he has said to make sure that backbenchers, because it would have been probably a backbench business debate otherwise, that they do get the time that they need. I just want to get on to the point. The serious points that he made about the protection of minorities, but it would be remiss of me if I didn't, and I hope the whole House will join with me in doing this.

Send our most heartfelt condolences to the friends and family who of those impacted by the tragic school collapse in Pakistan, which. The news came out overnight, and we send our heartfelt best wishes to those communities. In terms of the treatment of Hindus and others, the UK strongly condemns all instances

11:48

Tulip Siddiq MP (Hampstead and Highgate, Labour)

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of hate or violence directed towards minority religious communities in Pakistan, including communities in Pakistan, including Shia Muslims, Ahmadis, Christians, Hindus and Sikhs and we do work with the international community to promote human rights in partnership with Pakistan. But I will draw his with Pakistan. But I will draw his comments to the attention of the FCDO. I hear what he's saying about there being lots of other things going on, and not least what is happening in Ukraine and in the Middle East. But that's no excuse

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for taking our eye off the ball. If we can do something to help in a situation like this. Tulip Siddiq thank.

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Tulip Siddiq thank. You, Madam Deputy. Speaker Vincent. Chan abused. Baby girls.

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Baby girls. At a Bright Horizons nursery in my constituency for seven years. The Guardian has now revealed that The Guardian has now revealed that three years before he was arrested, the complaint was made about Vincent chan, which was Vincent chan, which was investigated by Bright Horizons and overseen by Camden Council, which cleared him and allowed him to return to work, where he continued abusing little children until he was arrested. I have asked Camden

11:49

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Council and Bright Horizons for the full documentation relating to the full documentation relating to the investigation that took place in 2021, but could I ask the leader if we can have a debate in government we can have a debate in government time about strengthening the safeguarding practices in nurseries, particularly in the Bright Horizons chain, where Ofsted has taken the unprecedented step of issuing two unprecedented step of issuing two welfare requirements notices to nurseries in their chain? Yes.

11:50

Martin Vickers MP (Brigg and Immingham, Conservative)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I want to thank my hon. Friend for raising this matter again. She's doing an excellent job in keeping it at the forefront of our minds. The safeguarding of young minds. The safeguarding of young children is our utmost priority. We have announced a range of measures have announced a range of measures to improve early year safeguarding over the summer, and the Department for Education has established an expert advisory group on safeguarding, including CCTV and digital devices, in early years settings, and that will report before Christmas. But if my hon. Friend is seeking a meeting with the department to get an update on these matters, I'll help her to arrange one.

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Martin Vickers thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker. Like many members across the House who attended their various House who attended their various party conferences, I visited the guide dog stand at our party conference and they made the point, as they regularly do, about the as they regularly do, about the dangers of pavement parking, not only to those with guide dogs, but

11:51

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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to the disabled and other groups. I know the government have recently had a consultation and taken a view that further legislation is needed, and devolving the power to local authorities is fine, but of course they need the resources available to them. Could the leader arrange for a statement from the appropriate Minister.

11:51

Kim Johnson MP (Liverpool Riverside, Labour)

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And Deputy Speaker and I, too, met with guide dogs at my at our conference, and they do a fantastic job campaigning on what is a really important issue. As the hon. Gentleman has said, we have made some steps forward in government in this, but we recognise that there are more things to do. I can't guarantee him a statement, but if he wants to hear from the mouth of Ministers about what our plans might be going forward, then if he was to seek a perhaps a Westminster Hall debate or an adjournment debate, then he might get that.

11:52

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Kim Johnson thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Palestinian Deputy Speaker. Palestinian families have been denied family reunification. This has been found to be unlawful in the courts. These to be unlawful in the courts. These include the families of Abida and Mahmoud, two boys who met with the former Prime Minister last year, who promised to do everything he could to ensure their families were reunited with them. So can the Leader of the House provide debate time in government, time to debate Palestinian visa schemes so that we can scrutinise these very important issues.

11:52

Rt Hon Sir Edward Leigh MP (Gainsborough, Conservative)

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Deputy speaker, my hon. Friend is a strong advocate on these issues and should she again seek an adjournment debate or a Westminster Hall debate, she can put it directly to witnesses. The government is very keen to do all that we can in this regard, but I think a debate, an adjournment debate, a Westminster Hall debate

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is the way forward for her. Part of the House. Sir Edward Leigh with. Regard to the church appointments, discriminatory appointments, discriminatory provision bill, I'm not sure that many of us Jews and Catholics have many of us Jews and Catholics have really felt discriminated. Against since 1829, and we think there may be more important things for the be more important things for the government to do. And I'm not sure many of us want to actually be involved in appointing Anglican involved in appointing Anglican bishops, although we might improve the number of bishops who talk

11:53

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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about God rather than social issues. Can I just turn to a much more immediate and important issue? Restoration and renewal of Parliament? The leader knows I've been involved in this for many been involved in this for many years, constantly urging action. We really need to get on with it. We need to repeal the existing bill, need to repeal the existing bill, which stops work carrying on around us. There's a horrible rumour that we're now going to go back to we're now going to go back to delaying the whole thing to 2032, talking about full decant. So can you give us a report on how we're going to get on with repairing this building? Thank you.

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Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'm sure the right hon. Gentleman will make his points about the Catholic make his points about the Catholic Relief Act, or indeed, the discrimination from the 1860s banning Jews from certain things. I'm sure you'll make that in the debate if he is able to. But perhaps the difference is, of course, that we have a Catholic Prime Minister, and therefore it's Prime Minister, and therefore it's very keen that if he is to take part in any of these deliberations that he has, that nothing gets in the way of that.

But this is, you know, outdated legislation, and I'm sure that we would be keen to the House would be keen to want to make those changes in terms of renewal and restoration. There was a report there is a report suggesting forward. I have committed to bringing forward a motion in order to because I do agree with them. Absolutely. It's time that we did actually get on with this. There isn't a full agreement across the House about what that actually means, but it is important that we get that debate.

I wouldn't believe everything that he has been told or indeed read about any postponement. The purpose is not to postpone it. The reality is it's been postponed for far too long. The longer we postpone it, the more it costs not just to keep this place functioning, but also the cost of eventually getting around to doing something about it. My approach, however, and I admit, has not been 1 or 2 to rush into this and get the house to rush into this because I want a

11:55

Marsha De Cordova MP (Battersea, Labour)

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consensus if we can. I think that's the best way going forward. Actually, there isn't a consensus, but I think that we can work but I think that we can work towards doing that, and I want to build in as many safeguards as possible. For example, I'd like to possible. For example, I'd like to see the outcome of the inquiry by the Public Accounts Committee because, quite rightly, MPs will be because, quite rightly, MPs will be asking, how do you actually ensure that this is going to be if we do decide to do it, value for money.

decide to do it, value for money. But in terms of timing, all I would say is we do need to get on with it. So watch this space.

11:56

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Marsha de Cordova thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Albert Bridge in Battersea has been closed now for more than eight months amid safety concerns. Obviously, this is causing severe delay and disruption to my constituents and businesses alike. Now we know the bridges in Battersea and bridges across London play a vital role in keeping London moving. So can we have a debate in government time on how we can make our bridges a strategic asset under the national government oversight?

11:56

Mike Martin MP (Tunbridge Wells, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Two things. Either my hon. Friend may want to make that point directly to DfT Ministers, or indeed, if it is essential infrastructure to the Cabinet Office, and I can help to arrange that for her. Or of course, she could seek a debate, because I'm sure there are colleagues, not least from London across the House, who will share her frustration about what is currently happening and hear from the Minister how best, if possible, the government can resolve the matter.

11:57

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Mike Martin thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I don't know if the Deputy Speaker. I don't know if the Leader of the House has seen the Sky war game series recently, but the central message of that is that we are not ready. We might be more ready. Had the promised Defence Readiness Bill come into this session of Parliament, but it was inexplicably dropped from His Majesty's speech. Could the leader advise whether there are plans to bring this bill forward at some point, and whether he's had any conversations, or will he have conversations with the Defence Secretary to hasten it along?

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Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. Of course, this session was quite crowded. One session was quite crowded. One shouldn't read into the fact that a bill doesn't appear. Is the fact that it's not important to the that it's not important to the government. It is a question of sometimes a priority and what needs to be done. I hear what he says, but the government is absolutely committed to doing everything that we can to make sure that this country stands by our allies, but

11:57

David Pinto-Duschinsky MP (Hendon, Labour)

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country stands by our allies, but also we're able to defend ourselves, too. I'm not going to speculate about what's in the third session either, but I will go away and give some thought and talk to the Defence Secretary, as the hon. Gentleman has raised, and to ensure

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that it's the forefront of his mind. David Pinto-Duschinsky thank. You, madam. Sometimes in our

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You, madam. Sometimes in our lives we are fortunate to meet someone. Truly inspirational. Rabbi Burnley Koshland was such a person Burnley Koshland was such a person came to this country on a Kindertransport just age eight. His parents were not so lucky. He never parents were not so lucky. He never saw them again. Many of us would have been broken by such a tragedy. But burnt triumphed over this adversity. He dedicated his life to education, teaching generation after generation, and telling his story to children around the globe.

In 2018, he was awarded an MBE for his role as one of his country's

11:58

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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leading Holocaust educators. Burnt was a man of huge compassion, warmth, humility and humour. He loved his family and was a proud loved his family and was a proud great grandfather. It was my honour to call him a friend and talk to him almost every week. For many him almost every week. For many years we lost burnt over recess. Our community in Hendon mourns him deeply, but his legacy will live on. Will the Leader of the House join me in celebrating Burns life, thanking him for his huge contribution to this country and passing on this House's deepest condolences to his family.

11:59

Rt Hon Sir Julian Lewis MP (New Forest East, Conservative)

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Yes, I will, Madam Deputy Speaker Rabbi Ben Koshland led a remarkable life. He dedicated himself to educating us about the horrors of the Holocaust, which we must never, ever forget, and we are eternally grateful to him for his significant contribution to our country. And I am sure the whole House will join me in sending our condolences to his friends, his

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family and all those who knew him. It's nice to see you so calm today, sir.

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today, sir. Julian Lewis Deputy Speaker And may I invite the Leader of the may I invite the Leader of the House and other colleagues to do their best to watch the 15 minute video on the Mays YouTube channel entitled The Medical Mesh Scandal Ruining Women's Lives, which was screened last night at a meeting chaired excellently by the hon. Member for Washington and Gateshead South. This deals with, of course, the scandal about pelvic mesh, and

12:00

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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it is rather disconcerting that two and a half years after the and a half years after the publication of the report by the Patient Safety Commissioner, Professor Henrietta Hughes, the Professor Henrietta Hughes, the government's response on her proposals, even for interim redress, proposals, even for interim redress, has not yet been made. Will the Leader of the House take up this cause, which is supported by people

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cause, which is supported by people in all parts of the House? Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The right hon. Gentleman is right

12:00

Mrs Sharon Hodgson MP (Washington and Gateshead South, Labour)

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to invite members to watch that, to be more informed on what I know is an issue of considerable concern across the House. We do recognise the profound, life changing impact the profound, life changing impact that these harms have had on individuals and their families. And as he will know, we are carefully as he will know, we are carefully considering the Hughes report. But I understand the frustration and the timescales, and I will ask that

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the timescales, and I will ask that Ministers will update him and indeed anyone else who is interested in this. Sharon Hodgson thank. following.

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the. House. I, along with. Many other colleagues of. All.

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All. Parties. Attended this brilliant. If, if I may say something that was so devastating to watch for so many so devastating to watch for so many women who have been harmed by mesh and my honourable. The hon. Member and my honourable. The hon. Member has already laid out the details of the Hughes report. Why. We're still waiting for a response, and I would

12:01

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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also encourage colleagues to watch the Mays documentary to share it the Mays documentary to share it with as far widely as they can. And also, if I we seem to be at a also, if I we seem to be at a stalemate with this. The the the government changed hands after the Hughes report was published. But we Hughes report was published. But we are now over two years on. There is definitely a stalemate. So will the Leader of the House meet with me Leader of the House meet with me and my hon.

Member from the Conservatives to discuss how we can take this forward?

12:02

Rt Hon Sir Roger Gale MP (Herne Bay and Sandwich, Conservative)

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Again, thank. Friend, who's been an assiduous and tireless campaigner on this matter, and she continues rightly, to raise and she continues rightly, to raise this, as I said, to the right hon. Gentleman, I do appreciate the frustration in in this regard and also the timescale that it has taken. I don't know why it has taken so long, but rather than to meet with me, I think it would be more useful, perhaps, if she met. And perhaps the right hon. Gentleman met with Ministers in

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order to see if this can be sorted out. Sir Roger Gale. Deputy Speaker May I first

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Deputy Speaker May I first associate myself with the remarks that have already been made about that have already been made about the murder of Sir David Amos five years ago. To this day, David was a years ago. To this day, David was a dear personal friend. He came into the house on the same day as myself the house on the same day as myself and the right hon. Gentleman the. The leader, the Father of the House in 1983.

And I think I'm right in saying that had David lived as he should have done, it would be he who would have been the Father of the House today. Madam Deputy Speaker, David was a passionate supporter of animal welfare issues. Earlier this week. My friend, the right hon. The lady the Member for.

12:03

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Newport West introduced a ten Newport West introduced a ten minute rule bill to to have a closed season for the killing of hares, something that I lent my hares, something that I lent my name to and I know that David would have been would have done had he have been would have done had he been here. That Bill is due to have its Second Reading on the 19th of March 2027 as a ten minute rule March 2027 as a ten minute rule bill. Ordinarily, it would not go very far. Would the Leader of the

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House see if he can find his way to ensuring that it has government support? Madam Deputy Speaker, that we

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Madam Deputy Speaker, that we also pay tribute to the right hon. Gentleman who again, has been a Gentleman who again, has been a passionate supporter on animal welfare issues and a consistent supporter on animal welfare issues, and echo his words about Sir David Amos. I look out for the ten minute

12:04

Ms Julie Minns MP (Carlisle, Labour)

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Amos. I look out for the ten minute rule bill. I do hope that the House gives its support. I'll give some thought as to what the government might be able to do to assist that, but without giving him any false hope. We are looking at a third session to see if there is scope for wildlife issues in that, and therefore it may be that even if the government doesn't bring forward something that I'm sure he will find a way of attaching it to anything that's got the word, the word wildlife in it.

12:05

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Julie Minns thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Cumberland and Westmorland wrestling is one of my region's most distinctive sporting and cultural traditions, and I'm and cultural traditions, and I'm delighted that plans are underway to. For Carlisle to host the 2027 European Championships of the International Federation of Celtic Wrestling. Will the Leader of the House join me in welcoming this exciting opportunity to showcase this unique, Unesco recognised living heritage sport? And can you assist me in securing a meeting with the Sports Minister to discuss how the government might support this prestigious international event?

12:05

Rt Hon Alistair Carmichael MP (Orkney and Shetland, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Hosting the 2027 European Championships of the International Federation of Celtic Wrestling in Carlisle is fantastic news and it Carlisle is fantastic news and it will do two things. First of all, people will learn more about the sport, I hope, but in visiting they'll also learn more about the fantastic city of Carlisle and I'm sure it will bring wider benefits than just the sport itself, and I will ensure that she gets the meeting with the Sports Minister that she requests so that there is a there is a a continuation even after the Championships are finished, of an acknowledgement of this sport and the impact that it

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can have. Alistair Carmichael thank you, Madam Speaker. Might we have a debate in

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Might we have a debate in government time on the various growing crises facing the UK fishing industries? I have learned fishing industries? I have learned today, Madam Deputy Speaker, that recently one Norwegian trawler, the Half Strand, landed from one trip 787 tonnes of safe caught in the 787 tonnes of safe caught in the waters around Shetland. So that is 170 metre freezer trawler landed

12:06

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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from one trip, an amount roughly equivalent to half of the quota equivalent to half of the quota that is available for all Shetland boats in one year. This is not a boats in one year. This is not a new problem. I have complained about the imbalance between UK and Norwegian boats for a long time now, Norwegian boats for a long time now, but it demonstrates surely that if these problems are not going to be

12:07

Mohammad Yasin MP (Bedford, Labour)

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addressed, then they will be, and this has become urgent. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I believe that the best way forward for the right hon. Gentleman is for him to make his case directly to Ministers. If he waits for DEFRA questions, which I think are next week, or if he wants a perhaps a longer and greater opportunity to do that, then I'll arrange for him to meet the fishing Minister.

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I think this is a. Birthday question, Mohammad Yasin.

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Thank you. Amanda. I welcome the Prime Minister's

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I welcome the Prime Minister's pledge at conference that the days of leaseholders being squeezed for every penny are coming to an end. In advance of the government's planned leasehold reform planned leasehold reform legislation, will the Leader of the House make time for a debate on

12:07

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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leaseholders concerns, including spiralling service and insurance spiralling service and insurance charges, non-qualifying leaseholders and bills that are opaque, duplicated or contain opaque, duplicated or contain errors so that members can raise their constituents experiences and press for an end to these unfair

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and often unaffordable costs. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Let me join the House in wishing my hon. Friend a happy birthday. In terms of leasehold reform, we are committed to ending the feudal leasehold system and bringing forward legislation to deliver as quickly as possible. And it is, as

12:08

John Lamont MP (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk, Conservative)

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the Prime Minister said at conference, a priority for him, and that's about implementing the Leasehold and Freehold Reform Act of last year, but also going of last year, but also going further. If he wishes to make the strong case before any further legislation comes forward, if he legislation comes forward, if he wishes to begin to make the case that he is he's putting forward today, then I suggest an adjournment debate or Westminster

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adjournment debate or Westminster Hall would be well attended. John Lamont. Thank you very much. As the leader. Of the.

12:09

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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House will be aware, the recent works to carriage gates here at Westminster cost the taxpayer over £62 million, which was significantly over Budget. But it's now been brought to my attention that fire engines may not be able to get through these new gates. So can the leader undertake to urgently investigate this further? And can the leader assure us that these arrangements, that the arrangements in place, that arrangements will be put in place so that fire engines will be able to get into Palace of Westminster if there is a fire.

12:09

Rebecca Long Bailey MP (Salford, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am very concerned to hear that, I am very concerned to hear that, and I simply hope it's not true. But I will go away and investigate. There is, for example, a commission There is, for example, a commission meeting on Monday where perhaps we can raise this question to get reassurances. But it also underlines the importance of making sure that we get on with our and our. And we address some of these issues because there is a huge fire risk in this place that's not overegging it.

There just is. And it is important. And as I say, I hope it's not true, but I will take it away and think about it and find out whether it is true.

12:10

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Rebecca Long-Bailey Deputy Speaker, The government's announcement yesterday that it was announcement yesterday that it was partnering with UK hospitality firms to deliver 100,000 jobs to young people not in education, training or employment was hugely welcome. But one such partner, amid widespread claims of bullying, sexual harassment and discrimination, has been placed under human rights watchdog. And will colleagues be bringing a statement to this House so that they can assure us that appropriate safeguards are going to be put in place for any employee taken on.

12:10

Dr Ellie Chowns MP (North Herefordshire, Green Party)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It's absolutely vital that those safeguards are put in place, and if she wishes to discuss her concerns with Ministers, I'll help her to arrange a meeting. But I'll also bear in mind what she said, because the government is doing some important work in trying to support hospitality, but also, crucially, trying to get young people into work. And if there is a need for a statement in the future, then I

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delivered. Jacob Collier Ellie Chowns. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Last week, I was.

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Last week, I was. Contacted by a constituent who faces a £300 a month shortfall faces a £300 a month shortfall between her rent and her local housing allowance. She's deeply concerned about the rent arrears concerned about the rent arrears and indeed risk of homelessness, that that might force her and her family into. And it's a situation affecting people across the country. On that very same day, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation published a report showing how rent controls could reduce the cost to the

12:11

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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exchequer of the unfreezing of local housing allowance by more than £1 billion by 2030. 31 so can we have a debate in government time about the urgent need to unfreeze about the urgent need to unfreeze local housing allowance and to institute rent controls so that we can avoid these risks of can avoid these risks of homelessness and the devastating impacts, and just worry and distress that this is causing to so

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many of our constituents. Madam Deputy Speaker, the government is absolutely committed to do everything that we can to

12:12

Ian Lavery MP (Blyth and Ashington, Labour)

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support people with the cost of living crisis. That includes the cost of housing, but also making cost of housing, but also making sure that we get rid of the problem of homelessness and not add them to of homelessness and not add them to them. Should she seek a debate on these matters. Then she can put those points to the relevant Minister. But I have to say that rent controls and the government's view are not the panacea that she seems to suggest.

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seems to suggest. Ian Lavery thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. On the 1st of January next year, the government will rightly ban the disgraceful practice of fire and rehire. Yet some employers appear determined to exploit the situation these protections before they take effect

12:13

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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in the North East. Taylor Wimpey is just this huge dismissal. Notices to 31 joiners and 19 scaffolders in to 31 joiners and 19 scaffolders in an attempt to force them onto worse terms and conditions, leaving hard working families face and working families face and uncertainty in the run up to Christmas. Will the Leader of the Christmas. Will the Leader of the House make time for a debate on this shameful practice? And join me this shameful practice? And join me in urging Taylor Wimpey to withdraw these notices and return to meaningful negotiations with the

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workforce and unite the Union. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend, as ever, is a champion for working people in his constituency and the reports which he raised, which I know from contact with my constituency, are deeply concerning. As he points out, the Employment Rights Act aims at preventing unscrupulous fire and rehire practices and guarantees

12:13

Sir Ashley Fox MP (Bridgwater, Conservative)

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rehire practices and guarantees fundamental protections for working people. But let me be absolutely clear it is unacceptable for any employer to attempt to degrade workers terms and conditions before statutory protections come into effect, and I hope that employers, including Taylor Wimpey, hear his comments today, because I can assure you that if they don't, he

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is going to continue to make them. Sir. Ashley Fox thank you, Madam

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Ashley Fox thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The quality of life Deputy Speaker. The quality of life of many local people in Bridgwater is being undermined by a small minority who show little regard for minority who show little regard for others with street drinking, drug misuse, shoplifting and other forms

12:14

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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of intimidating and antisocial behaviour. There is widespread perception locally that Somerset Council and the police are not responding with the urgency that the situation demands. So can I ask for a debate in government time on what more can be done to support towns like Bridgwater, so that the interests of decent, law abiding residents and businesses come first,

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and we can restore pride and confidence in our town centre? Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The total funding settlement for the police for 2020 627 provides up the police for 2020 627 provides up to £21.2 billion for police forces for counter-terrorism, policing and for counter-terrorism, policing and wider systems. But it is only important if that money actually finds its way to the front line, finds its way to the front line, particularly in town centres, because what he has said will actually echo in other town centres too.

And that's important that we use that money to get extra neighbourhood officers on patrol. But I hope that his local council and indeed his local police force and indeed his local police force have heard what he has said because they have an absolutely crucial role to play in this if they are role to play in this if they are getting the resources that they need. No excuses they get. They need to get on and use them to make need to get on and use them to make sure that people feel safe in their town and village centres.

12:15

Bell Ribeiro-Addy MP (Clapham and Brixton Hill, Labour)

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Bell Ribeiro-Addy.

12:16

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I chair the APPG on reparations and this Saturday, the 17th October will be our fourth annual conference. This has been an eventful year in the global eventful year in the global campaign, with the UN declaring the trafficking of enslaved Africans as the gravest crime against humanity. the gravest crime against humanity. The king, referring a petition from Jamaica to the Privy Council and a UK representative. Even speaking at Unga side event on restitution. Yet the FCDO still hasn't accepted our invitation to address the conference.

Given the changing global landscape and the likely focus at the upcoming Commonwealth Heads of Government Summit on reparations, will the Leader of the House encourages colleagues to send a Minister, or at least let us know when we might expect a slightly changed statement on the government's evolving position on Reparatory justice?

12:16

Douglas Lumsden MP (Aberdeen South, Conservative)

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Thank you very much indeed. The government's position on reparations, and I saw what happened in particular with the happened in particular with the petition that came from Jamaica. The government's position hasn't changed, but I will take away her request to see whether FCDO can provide a Minister, because it's important that we work together, even if it's the case that some people will not want to necessarily hear what the government has to say.

12:17

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Douglas Thompson. Before recess, senior official from Ofcom gave a dreadful performance at the Scottish Affairs Committee as they failed to justify why my as they failed to justify why my constituents and Aberdeen South were denied bespoke news programme coverage via STV North. And it was Ofcom who allowed this to happen. Despite clear local opposition, Ofcom's local responsibilities have grown substantially in recent years. Yet it appears unable to fill fulfil its basic duty to ensure sufficient regional news coverage.

So can I ask the Leader of the House if he will grant a debate in government time on whether Ofcom is still able to fulfil the legal responsibilities it was founded for?

12:18

Callum Anderson MP (Buckingham and Bletchley, Labour)

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Thank you very much indeed. I'm a big fan of the Select Committee process, but. However, it does need process, but. However, it does need people to. When they give evidence to actually take part in that in good faith and actually give a good response to the questions that come from members. Let me take away to the relevant department and think about this. But if he wants a debate to make length the cases that the case that he's making, then Westminster Hall debate or adjournment debate is the way to do that.

12:18

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Callum Anderson Mr. >> Joining pupils, staff. >> And parents at Buckingham Primary School to celebrate their Platinum Award for outdoor play and Platinum Award for outdoor play and learning, which is so crucial to helping children foster a sense of creativity, independence and confidence. So will the leader join me in joining in in congratulating the school on their achievement? And I consider a debate in government time to grant a debate on the importance of outdoor play on children's health and wellbeing.

12:18

Sarah Dyke MP (Glastonbury and Somerton, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you very much indeed. And >> Thank you very much indeed. And I certainly join my hon. Friend in thanking the staff at Buckingham Primary School and Nursery, as well Primary School and Nursery, as well as teaching staff across the country for their hard work and their commitment. I have seen it firsthand in my own constituency firsthand in my own constituency the importance of outdoor play and outdoor learning, and I agree with him. It is so important. I'd encourage him to apply for a Westminster Hall debate, however, so that he and other members can actually highlight the benefits of outdoor play. Because, as I say, I think this is a really important matter going forward.

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Sarah Madam Deputy. Speaker As the nights draw in and temperatures start. To. Drop, householders who rely on

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Drop, householders who rely on heating oil are facing bills that have doubled in a year. Unlike gas and electricity, heating oil has no price cap to protect them. The sector simply isn't working for consumers. That's why the Liberal consumers. That's why the Liberal Democrats are calling for the cap to be extended to every household that relies on heating oil. So will that relies on heating oil. So will the Leader of the House urge the relevant Minister to meet me without delay? So no family in Glastonbury and Somerton is left to face this winter in a cold home.

12:19

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The government has already made some important steps in this regard, and I'm not going to speculate, but but cost of living and the cost of energy and heating is certainly, I energy and heating is certainly, I know, at the forefront of the Chancellor's mind. But if she wants a meeting with the relevant Minister to draw attention to the Minister to draw attention to the particular issues affecting her constituency, then I'll help her to arrange one.

12:20

Tracy Gilbert MP (Edinburgh North and Leith, Labour)

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Tracy Gilbert thank you.

12:20

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Madam Deputy Speaker. The Leader of the House may be aware of the recent coverage around the industry's concerns on the future deployment of floating offshore wind technology in the North Sea. Simon Opher investment has already been made, including in my Edinburgh North and Leith constituency, to serve as floating offshore wind deployment and the government's Clean Power 2030 Action Plan, which details the energy and economic opportunities for floating offshore wind technology. Will the Leader of the House confirm that the government will support all emerging renewable technology going forward, and will he schedule an oral statement on the future energy generation mix in the North Sea?

12:21

Lewis Cocking MP (Broxbourne, Conservative)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The only way to bring energy bills down for good is taking control through through renewables, to through through renewables, to deliver energy security with clean, home-grown power. We've already secured £100 billion of private investment in clean power since the election, and secured enough clean energy projects to power. 23 million homes, were supporting workers through the transition to clean energy, including through doubling the number of clean energy jobs across the UK by the end of the decade.

And I'm sure, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the department will want to keep the House updated on what is a very important matter.

12:21

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Lewis Cocking thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Fuel prices in my constituency of Broxbourne are consistently higher than neighbouring areas. A litre of petrol costs £1.82 in the north of my constituency in Hoddesdon, compared to £1.64 in Enfield. And this is from the same company. Can we have a statement so the government can set out what is being done to stop my constituents

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in Broxbourne getting ripped off when they fill up their cars and vans at the petrol pumps? Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker,

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and the hon. Gentleman raises an important matter which affects a number of constituencies. The recent introduction of the fuel finder does create greater price transparency and increases pressure on retailers to price their fuel fairly. But also the Competition

12:22

Paul Davies MP (Colne Valley, Labour)

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fairly. But also the Competition and Markets Authority is using this data to monitor how fuel prices vary between different areas. To ensure competition in the fuel market is working properly, and I know that that is of particular concern to the government about what is happening in rural areas.

12:22

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Paul Davies thank you, Madam >> Paul Davies thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Earlier this week, as chair of the Tackling, Loneliness and Connected Communities APPG, I led a Communities APPG, I led a roundtable which discussed the topics of youth education and skills development. It's clear that many young people face many challenges in this areas, in this area, but it's also highlighted by the WEA that around 9 million adults in the UK lack essential skills such as literacy and numeracy.

With this in mind, will the government make a statement on the important role of lifelong learning when it comes to closing learning when it comes to closing Yeah. Madam Deputy Speaker, we believe that everyone should have the

12:23

Ben Lake MP (Ceredigion Preseli, Plaid Cymru)

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chance to develop their skills no matter what stage of their life they are. The Adult Skills Fund is they are. The Adult Skills Fund is helping adults across the country access the learning that can transform their prospects. And I would encourage my hon. Friend who is a powerful advocate on these matters, to apply for a Westminster Hall debate so that we can explore Hall debate so that we can explore how further what further steps can be taken to promote lifelong learning.

12:23

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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learning. >> Ben Lake Mr. Speaker. >> Almost three. >> Quarters. >> Of homes, including on Chris Elmore, do not have a connection to the mains gas network, meaning that they rely on oil and LPG for their heating and cooking. Further to the point that the hon. Member for Glastonbury and Somerton made, they are therefore not able to benefit from the energy price cap, and I from the energy price cap, and I fully exposed to the significant increase in prices following the crisis in the Middle East.

Could we have an urgent statement from the government on the support that will be made available to off grid homes this winter? this winter?

12:24

Rachael Maskell MP (York Central, Labour )

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Thank you. I just want to add that if the hon. Lady is seeking a meeting with Ministers in a

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cross-party spirit, than perhaps the hon. Gentleman will want to join her. Rachael Maskell thank you, Madam.

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Rachael Maskell thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker. 125 years ago, Seaborne Braintree launched his Seaborne Braintree launched his report Poverty A Study of Time Life, which was an exciting understanding which was an exciting understanding of the levels of poverty in York. Just last week, the University of

12:24

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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York launched a similar report looking at the city today, where poverty still is embedded in our communities. Could the Leader of the House say what government is doing to ensure that government is coming together to address poverty? And also look at the work that the University of York is doing with myself to bring our communities together to ensure people have

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lived, experience, lead that agenda. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I commend my hon. Deputy Speaker. I commend my hon. Friend on the work that she described, because ending poverty is not just a noble aim, it is something which you will find has great sympathy for in this government. We are taking action in government. We are taking action in this area with our child poverty strategy, which will lift half a million children out of poverty by million children out of poverty by 2030.

But as she acknowledges, there are still lessons to be learned and future progress. Further progress to be made. And as I announce in the future business, we are approaching a Budget in a we are approaching a Budget in a couple of weeks time and there will be ample opportunity in the Budget debate for my hon. Friend to make debate for my hon. Friend to make her to make her case. Madam.

12:25

Alison Griffiths MP (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton, Conservative)

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Deputy Speaker.

12:25

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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In West Sussex, we are still waiting to hear what the shape of our future unitary council might our future unitary council might look like. And yet members, quite possibly across the chamber will be aware of a WhatsApp message circulating which suggests that MCHLG has already confirmed a timetable and has yet to bring it to this House. So could I please ask the Leader of the House to encourage the Secretary of State to come to this House and update us as soon as possible?

12:26

Laura Kyrke-Smith MP (Aylesbury, Labour)

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Thank you. that we get reorganisation, right, which is why the Housing Secretary has withdrawn or paused decisions in 14 areas, and we will set out next steps as soon as possible, because I do understand, I do understand the frustration across the House on this Laura Kyrke-Smith.

12:26

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. about misinformation and disinformation and the threat it poses to our democracy. Trusted local media is a really vital counter to the false information that's out there. And yet our local media are struggling to stay afloat, including books, radio in my constituency, who recently missed out on funding from the government's local news outlet fund. Can the Leader of the House find time for a debate on the importance of trusted local media and the government's role in supporting it?

12:27

Mr Paul Foster MP (South Ribble, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and my hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight the importance right to highlight the importance of local radio within our communities and the importance of communities and the importance of trusted news sources. We have launched our local media strategy, increasing community radio funding to £1 million per year. I do appreciate that not everyone will be able to benefit from that at this point in time, but I'd encourage you to apply for a Westminster Hall debate to see if we can further expand on her scheme, on her theme, because I'm sure it will resonate with a lot of people across the house.

12:27

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Well. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> I had the privilege. >> Recently spending time with the amazing staff and volunteers of Woking's homeless shelter and charity, the York Road Project. They do a great job at turning around people's lives, but they're not able to do so and get them into not able to do so and get them into new homes if we are not building them. In my constituency of Woking alone, we've got 2000 properties that have got planning permission.

None are under construction. Some have planning permission granted before the pandemic. Will the government agree to a debate to ensure that developers are held to account for this? And we introduce, use it or lose it powers, so we grow our economy and build the homes we desperately need.

12:28

Alistair Strathern MP (Hitchin, Labour)

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The hon. Gentleman will know >> The hon. Gentleman will know that this is a priority announced by the Prime Minister, not least by the Prime Minister, not least because of his experiences when he was the mayor of Manchester, and we're very keen that schemes are unblocked so that we get new homes, but also that we explore all sorts of other possibilities as well. Should he seek an adjournment debate or Westminster Hall debate, then perhaps he can get the latest from housing Ministers and homelessness Ministers, actually, about what further action is envisaged by the government.

12:29

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Alistair Strathern Madam Deputy Speaker. I recently had the pleasure of visiting the much loved Next Page Books in Hitchin to learn more about their Ask Me What I'm Reading campaign, which is getting people right across the town talking about the joy of a good book. Now, I've always been a huge, very hungry caterpillar. Found myself, but I wonder if I could tempt the Leader of the House to share with the rest of us what he's reading at the moment, and if we could maybe have a statement from the government about what more we can do to support much loved page.

12:29

Rt Hon Wendy Morton MP (Aldridge-Brownhills, Conservative)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. As my hon. Friend will know, this As my hon. Friend will know, this year we launched the National Year of Reading 2026 to encourage good habits and to address the long term habits and to address the long term decline in reading enjoyment, and I thank the. Ask me What I'm reading campaign for helping us to achieve campaign for helping us to achieve that. In answer to his question, I am currently reading The Generals by Iain Dale, a collection of essays on leadership and generals and how how to improve leadership.

And when I'm finished, I'm going to lend it to the Leader of the Opposition.

12:30

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Wendy Morton Deputy Speaker Will the Leader of the House make time the Leader of the House make time for a debate on the democratic deficit that's created by the new planning scheme for delegation and planning? Because by restricting planning? Because by restricting councillors ability to call in applications in these changes, we will be denying they will be denying communities a meaningful voice in planning decisions. We urgently need more clarity and to understand how the government reconciles this with its commitment to devolve power.

And will it reconsider these changes to protect local democratic accountability?

12:30

Warinder Juss (Wolverhampton West, Labour)

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Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Madam Deputy Speaker. It's really important that we hear the voices of local people, and they're not just heard, but they they not just heard, but they they actually can influence the process. But at the same time, as she points out, the Prime Minister is absolutely committed to further devolution and making sure that decisions are made closer to where they have effect, rather than coming out from some centralised system or centralised planning infrastructure process.

If she wants to seek an adjournment debate or a Westminster Hall debate about about planning, then she can see the direction of travel. If she puts that to the relevant Minister warranted.

12:31

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Yes. >> Many families who. >> Inherit retirement properties. >> With age restricted. Occupancy requirements are finding them. >> Increasingly difficult.

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Increasingly difficult. To sell, and bereaved relatives, many of whom are pensioners themselves, can then face years of ongoing service charges, council tax liabilities, maintenance costs and significant loss in property value, which causes considerable financial and mental distress. So will the Leader of the House. Please facilitate a meeting with the Minister of State for Housing and Planning so we can discuss these issues with the retirement housing sector and see how bereaved

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families in this situation can be helped. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and we are committed to ensuring and we are committed to ensuring that leaseholders, including those living in retirement houses, are protected from unfair and protected from unfair and unreasonable practices, and we are giving consideration to the recommendations of the Older People's Housing Task Force, People's Housing Task Force, including further work on resale values. I will make sure that my hon. Friend does get the meeting hon. Friend does get the meeting with the planning Minister that he seeks, but this has been a theme. I'm not sure if it's exactly the same issue that's been raised before, but they're very they're similar enough to ensure that perhaps one meeting with the

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planning Minister would allow all of these issues to be aired. Adam Dance thank. You.

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Madam Deputy Speaker. Yeovil new police station will not have custody unit after it shut under the Conservatives because. Years of the Conservatives because. Years of underinvestment in Avon and Somerset Police. I mean, there is not enough money or staff, so officers have to keep wasting hours officers have to keep wasting hours a day going to Bridgwater station. Will the Leader of the House make time for a debate on the need to give rural police forces like Avon and Somerset a fairer funding boost, so we can get a custody suite back in Yeovil?

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Gentleman might want to look to a an adjournment debate or Westminster Hall debate to to make that specific point about his constituency. And he's justified

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In doing so, the government is providing more for the police settlement for this year. And as we've stated on many occasions, we've stated on many occasions, we're very keen to ensure that rural areas and rural forces get rural areas and rural forces get their fair share. But ultimately, how infrastructure of the force is either maintained or indeed stays open is a matter for local police and crime commissioners. and crime commissioners.

12:33

Becky Gittins MP (Clwyd East, Labour)

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Becky Gittins thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. On Saturday, I will be addressing a conference of Co-operative Movement members.

12:33

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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In. 100th anniversary of the partnership between the Labour Party and the Co-operative Party, a milestone that will be celebrated by having a co-operative Prime Minister in number ten. Will the Leader of the House therefore make room on the floor of this House for a debate, both celebrating that achievement and looking at how we can grow the co-operative movement, not least to the benefit of the members in Wales.

12:34

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Is the Prime Minister made clear he's very proud to be a co-operator. And as she points out, we have a Co-operator Prime Minister, and he has said that he wants to embed the has said that he wants to embed the principles and values of the co-operative movement into what the government is doing, and I think that's an important step forward. I'll give some thought as to whether or not we can find time for a debate on this, because I think it it affects what government is striving to do in all sorts of areas.

12:34

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Doctor Andrew Murrison speaking. >> Doctor Andrew Murrison speaking. >> Can we have a debate in government time on the increasingly government time on the increasingly feral behaviour of residential property management companies such property management companies such as Firstport Remus Feczko, who are blighting the lives of too many of our constituents with unreasonable financial demands and complete lack of accountability and transparency. This has gone on for too long, and there is an opportunity, with the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Bill for Minister to do something about it.

Can they come to the House to explain what they will do about it? Yes, indeed.

12:35

Rachel Blake MP (Cities of London and Westminster, Labour )

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The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to call out a practice when it is inappropriate or damaging, and he's absolutely right, and I hope that they've heard what he has got to say. And the government is committed to the government is committed to bringing it to not just the legislation that we have in front of us, but to continue this process to support people who are caught up by this. And therefore, there will be debates from time to time on that. But I will give some thought as to whether or not we need a particular government debate outside of that process.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Bedrolite is a medication for those Bedrolite is a medication for those with a very rare form of epilepsy. There are, I understand, for private prescriptions and three NHS prescriptions in the country. It's made by a company called Bedrocan, which was in the news this weekend because it is going bust and it's based in the Netherlands. One of my constituents families is deeply constituents families is deeply affected by this and needs this medication, and their prescription is running out in December.

You can

12:36

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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only imagine the deep concern that his family feel at the moment. I've written to the Secretary of State. written to the Secretary of State. I've written to the Minister responsible. I believe that this may also be assisted by some parts may also be assisted by some parts of the Foreign and Commonwealth Development Office in terms of their relationship in relationships their relationship in relationships in the Netherlands. Can the Leader of the House support me in bringing together all parts of government to address this really urgent issue?

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address this really urgent issue? For anybody using this important medication? Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is a really serious matter. My friend is right to bring the concerns to the floor of the House, because it's a huge concern to the families affected. She said that she had written to the Secretary of State and the relevant Minister. I'm not sure whether she got a response, but I will make sure that she does get a response to that, and then we'll see whether or not there needs to be a wider conversation across government, or conversation across government, or whether it really is a matter that the health department can get a grip on. Clive Jones.

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Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. While the government has committed to a workforce plan for social care, workforce plan for social care, many carers are pleading for urgent action to help resolve the high vacancy rate and to incentivise people to stay in the sector. Will the leader allow for a debate on

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delivering the skills and professional development that workforce? Thank you very much indeed. The

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Thank you very much indeed. The hon. Gentleman will have heard what the Prime Minister had to say about

12:37

Perran Moon MP (Camborne and Redruth, Labour)

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these matters at our conference and indeed outside of conference. It's of real importance to him, and I do hope that we are able to make progress on the wider issue of social care, and that all of the social care, and that all of the parties across the House will will have their. But I would with respect, say to him that following respect, say to him that following this business statement, there will be a statement on social care. He might want to put it directly to the Minister.

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the Minister. Perran Moon Whereas. Madam Deputy Speaker, party leaders come and go, as some members of some parties know, and. And members of other parties may

12:38

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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shortly be finding out. However, the longest serving party leader in the UK is standing down the well the UK is standing down the well respected Dick Cole, the leader of Mebyon Kernow, the party of Cornwall, has served his party with Cornwall, has served his party with distinction for an astonishing 29 years. Will the Leader of the House years. Will the Leader of the House congratulate Dick on his achievement and wish him well with

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achievement and wish him well with the words Hammira's? Thank you. Very much indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I absolutely join my

12:38

Dr Luke Evans MP (Hinckley and Bosworth, Conservative)

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hon. Friend in congratulating Dick Cole, the leader of the Party of Cornwall, on this remarkable Cornwall, on this remarkable achievement. Whatever our political differences, nearly three decades of service to his party and to of service to his party and to public life is a significant contribution and one that deserves recognition across the House. I recognition across the House. I wish him well for the future and the way in which I express that. I would ask my hon. Friend to take my

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would ask my hon. Friend to take my best wishes back and to use the language appropriate, because I am would. Doctor Luke Evans.

12:39

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Now, over the summer in Hinkley we had a massive fly tip. Now, make no mistake, it's a criminal act and they need to be held accountable. But so does the landowner. And in But so does the landowner. And in this case it's the Liberal Democrat run borough Council. When two jcbs run borough Council. When two jcbs get on and drop 2500 tonnes worth of waste. Someone needs to be held accountable to make sure that questions are rightly asked, saying what was done to secure this site and to clear it up.

Now that bill is going to be £1.3 million. Now, I have taken up the request by the council to write to DEFRA to ask for help with this. I haven't yet heard from Defra. Would the Leader of the House use his good office to follow up with DEFRA? While I follow up with the Borough Council about what they're doing?

12:40

Sonia Kumar MP (Dudley, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Gentleman, as I've said before, is a strong advocate for his constituents. I pay tribute to his constituents. I pay tribute to him for that, and he's right to raise this matter. I know that Defra take these matters very Defra take these matters very seriously indeed, and I give him my word that we will contact Defra after this session to help to ensure that he gets a response to his letter. The case that he raises is concerning.

I hope that I trust him to get on and deal with the Council, and I do hope that they treat the the Member of Parliament with respect and give him the answers to the questions that he asks, and I know I expect that they have heard his words today.

12:40

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Sonia Kumar thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. This month, a historic Unesco.

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70 years. Would my right hon. Friend join me in thanking the friends of Resins such as Paul friends of Resins such as Paul Floyd, geologist Graham Wharton and others who ensure that the 425 others who ensure that the 425 million years old treasures are protected for the next generation. And would the leader allow a debate And would the leader allow a debate on protecting such precious habitats, such as the wrens nest, and is always welcome to visit my

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and is always welcome to visit my constituency and pick up a fossil? I'm very tempted to go down. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. I'm rather frightened that they'll retain me

12:41

Tessa Munt MP (Wells and Mendip Hills, Liberal Democrat)

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as a fossil if I'm wrong. Listen, I, I, I pay tribute. I, I pay tribute to everything that is happening and I wish them well. And I thank them I wish them well. And I thank them for that. It allows me to say what I've said before on these occasions. Volunteers are just so important. They're the golden thread that runs They're the golden thread that runs through our communities. And this is a remarkable achievement. And I thank them for what they do, and I

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thank them for what they do, and I wish them well in the future. Tessa Munt. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Metachromatic. Leukodystrophy. Known as MLD, is a devastating genetic disease which progressively destroys the nervous system. Children born apparently healthy lose their ability to walk, talk, see, hear, swallow, and then eventually they lose the ability to breathe. Most do not live to enjoy their fifth birthday. Existing MLD treatment on the NHS is highly effective at halting the disease and is delivered at the Royal Manchester Children's Hospital.

But

12:42

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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early diagnosis is essential. We already test for ten conditions on the new on newborn babies and the new on newborn babies and without the need to take any additional blood, MLD, screening could be added to each newborn could be added to each newborn baby's heel prick test at a cost of £0.17 per test. Could the Leader of £0.17 per test. Could the Leader of the House ask the Health Department to meet with me to discuss this simple and inexpensive solution,

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simple and inexpensive solution, which would save the life of a child per month in this country? Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I agree with the hon. Lady that for those affected by MLB, it can

12:42

Johanna Baxter MP (Paisley and Renfrewshire South, Labour)

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be devastating and life changing disease. She's absolutely right to say that early diagnosis is say that early diagnosis is essential and is highly effective at halting the disease. And it's important that every government important that every government department, but especially the Department of Health, does look at ways of investing early on to make ways of investing early on to make sure that there's not even greater cost and and tragedy further down the line. I'm happy to try to facilitate with a meeting with the relevant Ministers so that she can discuss them further.

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Johanna Baxter thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker. Last month. I visited. Save Ukraine's Hope. And Healing.

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And Healing. Centre in Irpin. To see the. Incredible work that they are doing to rehabilitate they are doing to rehabilitate children who have been rescued following abduction by Russia. During my visit, I had the honour During my visit, I had the honour of delivering beautiful tartan scarves and toys to the children,

12:43

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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scarves and toys to the children, which had been generously donated by Ewan MacDonald of Houston, Quiltmakers, based in my constituency. The children were thrilled with their gifts and intrigued to learn about the history of tartan and Paisley's own textile heritage. So will the Leader of the House join me in thanking Ewan MacDonald and his whole team for their generous support for the Ukrainian people, and for continuing the proud

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tradition of Paisley's textile industry. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend has been a tireless campaigner for the Ukrainian cause, and I pay tribute to her for that. and I pay tribute to her for that. I will absolutely join her in thanking Ewan and his team for their generous support for the people of Ukraine and their people of Ukraine and their remarkable work. I pay tribute to all those involved in the Hope and Healing Centre for their incredible

12:44

Charlie Dewhirst MP (Bridlington and The Wolds, Conservative)

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Healing Centre for their incredible efforts, supporting children in the most horrific circumstances, and I thank her for the work that she's doing.

12:44

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Charlie Dewhirst thank. >> Now, you will no doubt be aware that East Yorkshire is blessed with some of the most productive farmland in the country yet the Humber Head Solar project threatens Humber Head Solar project threatens to plaster 4000 acres in solar panels. Even more concerning, Natural England appear to have amended the boundaries of the proposed Yorkshire Wolds Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty around the village of Londesborough. To avoid coming into conflict with this solar farm project. So can I ask the Leader of the House if we can have a debate in government time on the proliferation and cumulative impact of solar farms cumulative impact of solar farms and the detrimental effect on domestic food security?

12:45

Samantha Niblett MP (South Derbyshire, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I simply advise the hon. Gentleman to seek an adjournment debate or a Westminster Hall debate on these matters. He is right to raise the concerns of his local constituency on that, but also an opportunity to put directly to Ministers in an expanded way the concerns that he

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has raised with me today. Samantha Niblett thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It was Madam Deputy Speaker. It was reported in Derby Telegraph this week that Derbyshire County Council, in failing Central Devon, has in in failing Central Devon, has in the past year cost the taxpayer £79,000 in compensation paid out with 20,000 to 1 family alone. with 20,000 to 1 family alone. However, these families do not want to be getting to the point of compensation being paid out. They want help.

Yet I have in the past three months of DCMS MP surgery had little progress and little way of

12:45

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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updates for families. My team and I support in South Derbyshire, including Hayley Archer who is an incredible, incredible advocate for incredible, incredible advocate for her son but whose life is being ruined by Derbyshire County Council and Derbyshire County Council, is one of the councils having 90% of one of the councils having 90% of its deficit wiped out by this Labour government. So does the Leader of the House agree with me Leader of the House agree with me that this huge help to DCC should see a marked improvement in outcomes for people I represent in South Derbyshire, and that the Council should be held accountable for evidencing value for money by delivering for families instead of ignoring them.

12:46

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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And my hon. Friend is a great >> And my hon. Friend is a great advocate for her constituents, and I join her in paying tribute to Hayley Archer. She's absolutely Hayley Archer. She's absolutely right that her constituents have a right to see improvements in this vital area. And yet, too often in business questions, we hear about reform led councils who are simply letting down the people that they are supposed to be representing. I hope that Derbyshire County Council has heard what my hon.

Friend has said and takes action urgently to deliver for send families.

12:47

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This week, another young. >> Life was lost on. >> Dorset's rural roads as the second Wimborne man died this year. After the roads around this small town saw the deaths of four people last December, and another family narrowly avoided tragedy after a vehicle ploughed into the front of vehicle ploughed into the front of their house on Cranbourne Road. While the incidents are subject to investigation, the 60 mile an hour default speed limit on country lanes means that road safety requests have to go through long and costly processes for each and every one, making it a matrix of delay. Whereas a rural speed limit of 40 miles an hour would better suit the countryside, where the roads simply weren't built for the level of traffic. So in advance of legislation linked to the road safety strategy. Will the Leader of the House make time for a debate in

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government time on reducing Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Lady raises very important matters as well, not just in her constituency, but I'm sure it echoes what's happening across the country. We have announced the country. We have announced the first road safety strategy in over a decade. It will save thousands of a decade. It will save thousands of lives over the next decade as we implement a plan to reduce deaths and serious injuries by around two and serious injuries by around two thirds by 2035.

But that's cold comfort to people who are caught up in these tragedies. We're also keen as a government, to reduce the red tape, to make sure that decisions can be made locally and made quickly. So I will raise the matter with the with the relevant Minister and get a response from her. and get a response from her. Thank you. condolences to the family and friends of Labour Councillor Dave Parkins? Dave was a proud veteran, a diligent and compassionate councillor for 32 years in Huncote and who, in his most recent election of 2023 secured 80% of the vote as it should be an example to us all.

Mr. Huncote will be sorely missed by all of us in Hyndburn.

12:49

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Thank you very much indeed, and I'm sure the whole House will join me in sending condolences to the me in sending condolences to the family of Councillor Dave Parker and to thank him for his years of and to thank him for his years of public service, but also thank his family for sharing him with a life in politics and a life of of public service. The commitment of our local councillors and public services servants is vital to the success of our constituencies.

I thank my hon. Friend for raising this today, and I send our condolences to the family of Councillor Parkins, but also our thanks.

12:49

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Jim Shannon thank you, Madam >> Jim Shannon thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Will the Leader of the House ask. >> The Foreign. >> Secretary to make a statement on

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Secretary to make a statement on the Inter-American Court of Human Rights? Recent resolution concerning the safety, the health concerning the safety, the health and the freedom of the Catholic Bishop, Abelardo Mata and Nicaragua and what representations the government is making to urge the Nicaraguan authorities to end the persecution, the harassment and intimidation of religious leaders respect their right to express their views on. Practice, their faith without any fear of retaliation, and to protect Bishop Mattis life, health and liberty.

Thank you.

12:50

Mark Sewards MP (Leeds South West and Morley, Labour)

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Thank you very much indeed. As ever, the hon. Gentleman raises a ever, the hon. Gentleman raises a serious matter. We are committed to defending freedom of religion and belief for all, and we continue to urge the authorities wherever to release political prisoners immediately, unconditionally, if they're held as a matter of faith or belief. I'll make sure that he receives a response from my hon. Friend the Minister for the Americas.

12:50

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Mark Seward's. >> A 15 year old constituent with a serious heart condition that he's awaiting surgery for. He's been told not to overexert himself because even walking puts his health at risk. Sadly, his family's appeal for a blue badge has been turned down because they can't demonstrate he'll have this problem in three years post-surgery. But we know that certain individuals on qualifying benefits can get a short term blue badge, but in this instance, he doesn't qualify despite his health condition.

Well, the Leader of the House credit debate in government time on the need to change this scheme so he can help people, especially children, avoid this needless trap.

12:51

Gordon McKee MP (Glasgow South, Labour)

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Yeah. My hon. Friend raises an important case regarding the gap in the provision of blue badges. I will make sure that he gets a response from the relevant Minister. If that is not a sufficiently appropriate response to his concerns, then I would encourage him to seek an adjournment debate so that he can make his case more strongly.

12:51

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Gordon McKee. >> Gordon McKee. >> Thank you very much. >> Madam Deputy Speaker. >> Residents in Cathcart and my constituency have been waiting more than five years for a gate to Lynn Park to be fixed and reopened by Glasgow City Council, thanks to the work of the Friends of Lynn Park Group. Progress is finally being made, but does the leader agree with me that it has taken far too long? And will he join me in recognising the work of Friends of Lynn Park?

12:52

Jayne Kirkham MP (Truro and Falmouth, Labour )

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It certainly sounds, Madam Deputy Speaker, as if it's taken far too long. I don't know why the Council has prevaricated prevaricated in this regard. It allows me to say that this allows me to say that this settlement to Scotland is the highest on record and that if that has got down to a local level, then councils can't claim that they don't have the resources in order to address these issues. And I hope that the Council has heard what my hon.

Friend has said, but I also pay tribute to the volunteers for their successful campaign to alleviate the situation.

12:52

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Jayne Kirkham thank you, Madam. of the House make time for a debate on the financial impact on local authorities and government of the loophole, which allows retrospective reclassification by the Valuation Office of Second Homes as holiday let businesses. That has led to councils having to refund years of Council tax up to £10 million in somewhere like Cornwall and central Government having to reimburse councils for future shortfalls.

12:53

Steve Yemm MP (Mansfield, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is a concern which will be held by members across the House, which is why we published a call for evidence seeking views on the tax treatment of holiday lets, which will publish its evidence in due course, and I will if she seeks due course, and I will if she seeks a meeting with the relevant Minister to discuss this topic further. I'll help her to achieve that. Steve Yemm thank.

12:53

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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You, Madam. >> The Labour Government's. >> £4 billion. Transfer of. Reserves to the Mineworkers Pension Reserves to the Mineworkers Pension Scheme and British Coal Staff Superannuation Scheme, both sets of Superannuation Scheme, both sets of trustees have set out proposals for how future surpluses can benefit the thousands of scheme members, both in Mansfield and across the country. Would the Leader of the House press the government to address those trustee proposals in the October Budget, so that former mine workers and their families can receive that fair and sustainable settlement that they fought for for many decades?

12:54

Tom Hayes MP (Bournemouth East, Labour)

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Deputy speaker, My hon. Friend has been an ardent campaigner for has been an ardent campaigner for former mineworkers in his part of the world, and I pay tribute to him for that. He raises an important for that. He raises an important point regarding the proposals, and if he gives me further details, I will make sure that the Chancellor will make sure that the Chancellor receives them and hears what he's saying during his deliberations on what might or might not be in the Budget.

12:54

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Tom Hayes thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Sobo beach is a brilliant business and a thriving brilliant business and a thriving community, but it's set to close. An 11th hour U-turn this week saw BCP Council give Sobo Beach an 11 month delay to the inevitable, which is their closure. Despite saying that such a move was only possible, there are concerns that the council leadership may have made incorrect statements into the council meeting that decided on that closure. Will the leader arrange a meeting for me with the relevant Minister so that I can relevant Minister so that I can raise my concerns on behalf of my constituents? Nearly 10,000 people signed a petition to save Sobo Beach.

12:55

Patricia Ferguson MP (Glasgow West, Labour)

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Thank you very much indeed. I thank my hon. Friend for his question, and he's a tireless campaigner for his constituents, and I will help him to arrange a meeting with the relevant Minister to discuss those concerns, because they are serious concerns.

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Mr. Ferguson. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. We are still in October, and my We are still in October, and my office is receiving a great many representations about the antisocial use of fireworks in many of our communities, but particularly in the area of Knightswood in Glasgow West. I welcome the government's consultation, which has recently closed on the issue of fireworks, closed on the issue of fireworks, and I would just ask members to note that my own private member's bill will be having its Second

12:55

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Reading on the 4th of December, so I hope that's in the diaries. But can the Leader of the House tell can the Leader of the House tell the House what the time frame for responding to that consultation responding to that consultation will be, and what its plans are thereafter in terms of time frame? We are obviously too late for this We are obviously too late for this year's bonfire fireworks season, but next year we have to do better.

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but next year we have to do better. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and of course, this is a timely opportunity to raise this matter, and I'm sure it'll be raised as we approach Bonfire Night. The

12:56

Euan Stainbank MP (Falkirk, Labour)

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constitute the consultation on targeted reforms to fireworks and pyrotechnics legislation closed, pyrotechnics legislation closed, closed recently, and we are reviewing the evidence, which is the right thing to do before we publish our response. I also understand, I hope and correct that my hon. Friend will soon be meeting my hon. Friend will soon be meeting the Minister where they can discuss these matters further. I am not able to say what the timescale is,

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able to say what the timescale is, but I am sure that my ministerial colleagues appreciate the urgency of this. Euan Stainbank 26 marks.

12:56

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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The. 25th anniversary. This project restored the Forth and Clyde and Union canals as the arteries of Falkirk's tourist economy and built the iconic Falkirk Wheel, which connects the two canals. Would the leader commend the staff? Voluntary canal associations and everyone else involved in this project over the years, and join me to visit the new Traditional Skills Centre, currently being built at lock 16, which will regenerate the former barge factory, provide new jobs and opportunities for young people and is being supported through the Falkirk and Grangemouth Growth Fund

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and the Pride in Place Impact Fund. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I absolutely join my friend in congratulating everyone involved in the Millennium Link Project. It sounds to me that they've done a sounds to me that they've done a remarkable job in cleaning up the area. I thank him for his enticing area. I thank him for his enticing invitation to visit the Scottish Canals Skills Centre site to see the fantastic work which has been

12:57

Jim Dickson MP (Dartford, Labour)

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the fantastic work which has been done there, not least because it's about environmental improvement and about heritage, of which I am a have keen interest in and a big supporter. But of course it's also about jobs that are created in these projects, and that's really important for his constituency and other constituencies.

12:58

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Jim Dickson thank. >> Dartford Grammar School for boys, known locally as an academic powerhouse and centre for Learning Excellence, sits at the heart of Excellence, sits at the heart of our community in Dartford. This year it has turned 450 years old, and among the many notable alumni are Sir Mick Jagger of the Rolling Stones, war poet Sidney Keyes, computer scientist John Rugby and sprinter Adam Gemili. Would the Leader of the House join me in wishing Dartford Grammar School, including headteacher Julian Metcalfe, chair of Governors Robert Tibbott and all the trustees, the staff, the parents and the students are very happy birthday.

12:58

Phil Brickell MP (Bolton West, Labour)

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Yeah. Grammar School a happy and historic 450th birthday. What a remarkable achievement, Madam Deputy Speaker, achievement, Madam Deputy Speaker, for a school to have reached its 450th anniversary. And I want to 450th anniversary. And I want to pay tribute, as he says to headteacher Julian Metcalfe, but also all the hard working teachers and students over the years that have made this school such a success. And I wish them well for the future.

12:59

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Speaker. Councils across the country are spending millions of pounds on single occupancy taxis for send single occupancy taxis for send transport, while ageing minibus fleets go unreplaced. One manufacturer in my Bolton West constituency reports that complex procurement processes, excessive bureaucracy and lengthy tendering delays are preventing councils from ordering new vehicles, despite there being clear demand to do so. So can the leader use his good offices to secure a statement from the government, setting out how it will ensure that the Buy British agenda helps councils modernise fleets, reduce transport costs and support British manufacturing jobs.

12:59

Andy MacNae MP (Rossendale and Darwen, Labour)

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The Speaker The Honourable hon. Friend raises a crucial issue for his constituents. The government is committed to ensuring that the £400 billion of taxpayers money spent on public procurement each year actively supports British industry. He raises a very interesting point, and I will make sure that he gets an update from the relevant department.

13:00

Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)

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Andy MacNae thank you. constituency on a sensitive site in Bacup. The development was originally refused by the council but approved on appeal. From the outset, McDermott had been dismissive of planning conditions and residents concerns, particularly regarding the ecology, site access and road safety. The issues persist despite a stop notice. Three breaches of conditions magistrates fines which seem to offer no deterrent at all. The council has left managing numerous complaints despite having refused the original application. Community bears the cost of decision made by a remote inspector in Bristol. Would leader agree to a debate on how we can better support local authorities in such situations and ensure developers such as McDermott are held accountable when they repeatedly

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breach planning conditions? Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon. Friend raises does sound concerning. Local planning authorities do have a wide range of enforcement powers with strong enforcement powers with strong penalties for non-compliance, including unlimited fines. It is for them ultimately to decide how for them ultimately to decide how to take action. But I hope that the the offenders, if you like, have the offenders, if you like, have heard what he has said today and I would encourage his local authority to make use of them.

And I also ask the Minister to write to my hon. Friend, and following that, he may wish to consider either an adjournment debate or Westminster Hall debate so that they can make his case in more detail.

13:01

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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13:11

Rt Hon Damian Hinds MP (East Hampshire, Conservative)

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to build. That when you fall ill, you never have to worry about the bill. Today, we have the chance to bill. Today, we have the chance to carry her generation's torch into the 21st century and to leave to our children and our grandchildren something as significant as the creation of the NHS itself. Madam creation of the NHS itself. Madam Deputy Speaker, we are ripping off the plaster and I commend this statement to the House.

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statement to the House. Shadow Secretary of State. Damian Hinds thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Minister for advance sight of her statement and joined with her in what she said about Sir David Amos today. Again, we remember his service, his remarkable contribution to Parliament and to public life, including today the Children's Parliament. Madam Deputy Speaker, in my lifetime, life expectancy has risen by almost a decade and that is a wonderful thing.

But it does, as she said, mean many more people now needing care for extended periods, sometimes very extended periods, and that number is only likely to grow. It is imperative for society to address this issue, and it is imperative for us as politicians, to find a system that is compassionate, sustainable, affordable and fair, and so much the better if there can be common ground across this floor. For on this subject, a sustainable approach is also one that can survive multiple changes of government, and we will approach this subject constructively and positively.

I was, though, Madam Deputy Speaker, surprised to hear the Prime Minister announce fundamental and apparently fixed parts of this policy at the Labour Party conference. And to the first question, I think, is what are the implications for the Casey Review? We don't yet know what the big conversation on care will yield. Is the noble Baroness free to make recommendations? That may not be the model that the Prime Minister has announced. The Prime Minister managed simultaneously, apparently, to set the constraints, but also emit a huge amount of practical information that people need.

And I think it would be, one could say charitably, that today's statement adds limited detail to what he has set out from the use of the phrase the National Care Service. People may understandably have heard something more comprehensive than what is actually being proposed, but this is not about all the costs of long term care. It is not about the part that, for many people is the biggest part residential care. It is only about personal care, and terms like personal care and social care often get conflated, but can be different.

So what is the government's definition of what this service is to cover? The statement says it will be based on need rather than ability to pay. Does that mean that they do not envisage for those in a care home a fixed contribution as in Scotland, but rather about meeting the costs of individually assessed needs? Will there be any changes to continuing healthcare or funded funded nursing care? Half of those receiving local authority, long term social care support in the community are working age adults, and we assume that what the government has said about staff obviously also applies also to this important part of the care sector.

But what else? And speaking of staff reforms, what the Prime Minister says about integrating the care and NHS workforces, how is that to work in care, which is overwhelmingly in the private and voluntary sectors? The government statement says this system will be introduced in phases so its scope can grow as the savings increase from adjusting the triple lock and has workforce and provided capacity are built up. So is spending on the National Care Service dependent on savings being made from the triple lock, though of course those are not currently budgeted costs.

So the definition of savings is itself an interesting one. Does she clearly commit to no new taxes or borrowing for this plan? The bit about allowing capacity to be built up suggests not only a transfer of costs from individuals to the state, but also that a net increase. And so how much net increase in provision is the government's projecting in the. There is one. There is one change, Madam Deputy Speaker, which appears.

It may affect residential. The residential. The costs of being in a residential care home. The Prime Minister said that no care charges would be paid out of your basic State Pension. That seems to imply an end to payments from income for care home residents below the lower capital limit, down to the weekly personal expenses allowance. Is that interpretation correct? And please, Madam Deputy Speaker, I ask that when answering, please do not say these are all details for the Casey

13:16

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Review because you cannot have it both ways. Personal care costs are closely linked to these other closely linked to these other aspects of the system, and if the government wanted to allow space for the commission to look at the for the commission to look at the system in the round, it could have done if it really wanted to allow time to develop a cross-party consensus on on the structure it consensus on on the structure it could have done. The government itself calls what the Prime Minister set out at the party

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conference a clear plan to fix the system. So please, can we have these answers? Minister.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I would like to thank the Shadow Health Secretary for his response. And I'll try to respond to the points, the questions that he's raised there as as much as I can. But if I do miss anything, can. But if I do miss anything, I'll I will follow up in writing afterwards, and perhaps I might just say to him that he's just say to him that he's absolutely right, that whilst politics is what it is, as much as possible, we want to work across the House on this issue and I'd be very happy to meet with him regularly to discuss this for that.

For that very reason, Madam Deputy Speaker, the Shadow Health Secretary mentioned whether Baroness Casey was free to consider issues that she wished. We've obviously, she's obviously got terms of reference. My personal experience with Baroness Casey is that you try stopping her having. Having opinions about anything that she wants to have opinions on. So. But we're obviously working closely with her. I've met her a number a number of times, and was really pleased to welcome her to my constituency to on personal care.

Obviously, what we mean by that is help using the toilet, cleaning, having having a shower and so on. But cleaning oneself and I'll happily I'll have I will happily pick up the the question that that he the question is that he raised with me in writing. He mentions continuing healthcare. There are obviously a number of ways in which, as was under the previous government, under which the interface between NHS funding and social care funding really matters, not least the better health, the better Care fund and continuing healthcare.

We continue to to look at those and I will happily discuss with them. There are there are improvements we can make in the short term that will help even as we wait for the Casey Review next summer. And likewise on integration with the NHS. Members across this House will all know of good examples where. Because of collaborative working on the ground, we do see systems that are well integrated. The problem is that that's due to good fortune and good relationships, rather than a system and a structure that enables that.

He he asked me about taxation. That's obviously a matter for the Chancellor, and we'll be having a Budget shortly. So I'm sure there'll be many questions asked of the Chancellor. And he asked me a couple of other questions as well, which I didn't quite catch. But I will review his statement and write to him.

13:19

Deirdre Costigan MP (Ealing Southall, Labour)

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Deirdre Costigan thank you, >> Deirdre Costigan thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I draw. >> Attention to my register of interest as a proud member of unison. For too long, care workers in Ealing Southall have lived on rock bottom wages with no chance to

13:19

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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progress in their jobs. So I hugely welcome this government's half £1 billion investment in the first billion investment in the first ever Fair pay agreement for social care. Does the Minister agree with care. Does the Minister agree with me that we will never have a good quality social care service in this country unless we value our care country unless we value our care workers properly? And can she set out how this half £1 billion, how far it will go in achieving this?

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Hey. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank my hon. Friend for her question. She's absolutely right that at the heart of the problems

13:20

Clive Jones MP (Wokingham, Liberal Democrat)

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we have in the social care system at the moment is the workforce, the way that they're looked down upon way that they're looked down upon by others, and the problems that we have with low and uncertain pay in have with low and uncertain pay in many areas, we're cracking on with the fair pay agreement for all the reasons that I mentioned, and that she knows only too well, which is she knows only too well, which is about time that social care was seen as the great and fantastic career that it actually is.

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career that it actually is. Purple Democrat spokesperson Clive Jones. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, I welcome the Minister's statement on the National Care Service and thank her for early sight of her statement. My Liberal Democrat colleagues and I believe that everyone deserves to be able to live independently with dignity and to receive the care they need in their own home where possible. Hundreds of thousands of people are desperately waiting for the care that they need, and 13,000 people every day are left stranded in hospital beds, unable to leave because their care packages have not been put in place. 1 in 7 people over 65 are now paying more than £100,000 for their care in their lifetime. Spiralling social care costs have left many councils, like my own in Wokingham, struggling to fulfil other basic services that residents want to see. Social care services are in crisis Social care services are in crisis and have been for too long. This has been recognised for many years has been recognised for many years by Ed Davey, the leader of the Liberal Democrats, and a carer himself, member of Richmond Park. himself, member of Richmond Park. The hon. Gentleman will know that he must refer to his party

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leader by his constituency, not name Clive Jones. Apologies for that, Madam Deputy

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Apologies for that, Madam Deputy Speaker. We are also pleased that the Prime Minister has recognised from his own experience that social from his own experience that social care needs fixing. The Liberal Democrats are keen to work on a cross-party basis to fix social care. Failure to act on social care would be a catastrophe for families, would be a catastrophe for families, for the NHS and for local services. Liberal Democrats have set the government three tests for social care reforms.

They must put family carers front and centre with guaranteed rights for every carer, and replace the broken Carer's Allowance system. Reforms must include the universal safety net of care, including free personal care. And thirdly, the government must protect people from catastrophic costs so family finances are not decimated and people don't have to lose their family homes. I'm pleased that yesterday the Prime Minister committed to arranging another round of cross-party talks another round of cross-party talks to fix social care, and the Liberal Democrats will engage in these discussions and urge others in this House to do the same.

13:23

Ashley Dalton MP (West Lancashire, Labour)

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Here I just say thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, to the to the gentleman's comments there. The House will have heard the interchange between the leader of the Liberal Democrats and the Prime Minister yesterday, and I would also just thank him for pointing out the rather extreme impact of this situation on the NHS. We all have a choice. We can't leave it as it is.

13:23

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Ashley Dalton thank. >> Deputy Speaker. >> And this House knows that in recent months, the issue of end of life care has been at the forefront of our discussions and debate. Can the Minister tell us how the National Care Service will dovetail with end of life care and support families and those at the end of their lives here?

13:24

Rt Hon Sir Edward Leigh MP (Gainsborough, Conservative)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank my friend for all she did as a health Minister and for raising that question. It's raising that question. It's extremely important. It's an often overlooked fact that in end of life care, the members of staff who care, the members of staff who might see a person and their family the most will be social care staff. And if we can't get the NHS working together with social care for people when they're dying, we won't be able to do it at any time. So that is an absolute priority for the work that we can do. Before the Casey Review, and I happily meet with her to discuss that further, if she'd like. Leigh.

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The average cost. Of a home in the Gainsborough

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Of a home in the Gainsborough constituency is just £204,000. Typically, you spend three years in Typically, you spend three years in a care home in your lifetime, which will cost you £150,000. Everything over £23,000. The upper upper capital limit is taken. This is capital limit is taken. This is what really upsets people that they've given a lifetime in all over the country. And this is a real issue outside London and the south east, where house prices are much higher.

So will the Minister, if she's going to abolish the triple lock and change it to a double lock, which most commentators think is now inevitable? Will she look at the issue and either bring raise the upper capital limit so people keep more of their money or have a life, more of their money or have a life, a cap on lifetime contribution, which was, of course, the policy of the last government.

13:25

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Father of the House for his comment. The point that he raised is an important one. That's for the further discussions we'll have next summer once the Casey Commission has reported. I would say to him that the steps that I wish to take in the immediate weeks and months are focussed on improving what we can now within the care system. But he nonetheless raises a very important point.

13:25

Sir Bernard Jenkin MP (Harwich and North Essex, Conservative)

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Jen Craft thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I welcome the statement, and I hope that the National Care Service affords an opportunity to develop the sufficient roadmap to community support for the over 3000 people with a learning disability and autism who are currently locked away in secure mental health units that are inappropriate and in some cases, actively harmful. This was cases, actively harmful. This was given as a commitment to meet the Dispatch Box by the minister's predecessor nearly a year ago, and I'd be grateful if the Minister I'd be grateful if the Minister will be able to meet with myself, Mencap and those campaigning to hospital.

13:26

Vikki Slade MP (Mid Dorset and North Poole, Liberal Democrat)

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Here, here, here.

13:26

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and of course, I will meet with my friend. She will know that I'm also friend. She will know that I'm also the Minister of State for Mental Health. So across the those two responsibilities, I'd happily work

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responsibilities, I'd happily work with her her to fulfil that commitment. Vikki Slade. Thank you, Madam Speaker. For the last year I've Speaker. For the last year I've been campaigning for Richard's Law after Louise and Richard were robbed by the care worker in their own home in Dorset. The law would ensure that all care workers are DBS registered, have minimum levels of training and, most importantly, on a single national carers register. This is supported by visiting angels and the National Care Agency, as it will allow carers to move employers more easily, reduce employers costs and professionalise the sector.

Will she support this?

13:27

Anna Dixon MP (Shipley, Labour)

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Yes. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and I'd like to thank the hon. Lady for her point. She rightly raised a very important issue. One of the interim recommendations of the KC review was that we create a national Safeguarding board. So if she would like to send me the details of her proposal, I will happily raise that with the Chief social worker. Anna Dixon thank you, Madam.

13:27

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Deputy Speaker, and I refer the House to my register of interest as the chair of the APPG for carers. the chair of the APPG for carers. The Minister sadly knows from personal experience the challenges that family members face in trying that family members face in trying to secure care and support for our loved ones, and it's even more distressing when they are close to the end of their life. So will she outline how the government will ensure that the National Care Service will give peace of mind to families and carers, that care and support will be there when they need it, regardless of their finances or where they live.

13:28

Rt Hon Edward Argar MP (Melton and Syston, Conservative)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and my friend, asking for giving me the opportunity to thank her for all the work that she does in all the work that she does in Parliament to raise the issues that relate to family carers to in the relate to family carers to in the care within the care system. She mentions that I sadly have recent experience of the social care system. At the. When my mum died in July and I can only say that the system that we want to try to achieve is one that takes burdens off the shoulders of people at that time, not the one at the moment where unfortunately, the complexities only add to the

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distress. Edward Argar thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I associate myself with the Minister's remarks myself with the Minister's remarks about the amazing work done by care workers day in and day out across workers day in and day out across our country? Labour, governments, conservative governments, governments with Liberal Democrats in them have all been unable to find a way to implement significant changes for the future of social care. Not, I suspect, from a lack care.

Not, I suspect, from a lack of desire, but due to the complexities of it and indeed the complexities of securing meaningful

13:29

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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a degree of meaningful agreement across parties in this House. Therefore, can the Minister confirm that the contours of what cross-party discussions can cross-party discussions can consider and potentially conclude, and the contours of what the Commission can consider and can potentially conclude, are in no way predetermined by the Prime

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Minister's announcement? Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'd like to thank the right hon. Gentleman for his question. He's been a Minister in in the Department of Health, and he knows and understands the challenges very well and was an excellent and courteous Minister. I would just say to him, the Prime Minister set out his position from that long standing view that he's held. He acknowledged Prime Minister's questions and on other occasions, the ups and downs of this debate that we've all been through, and we all want to try to work cross-party all want to try to work cross-party to get to a better place on this.

And I can only refer the hon. And I can only refer the hon. Gentleman to the remarks that the Prime Minister made at PMQs yesterday about how determined he is to find cross-party agreement. is to find cross-party agreement.

13:30

Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )

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Chris Vince thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I also declare an interest as a member of the trade union unison? Can I thank the Minister for her statement and can I welcome her and her PM and the PM's comments and commitment to a National Care service? I think, of course, I welcome, I know has the potential to make a big difference to residents and also carers in my constituency of Harlow. I'm really interested in the role of the unpaid carers champion.

This isn't unpaid carers champion. This isn't me putting in a pitch for the for the job, but what I would like to know is how she will ensure that know is how she will ensure that this role will make sure that carers and also young carers, she will know I've got a passion for supporting their. Voices are heard supporting their. Voices are heard as part of this conversation.

13:30

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I know that the only job that my friend ever wants is to be the member of Parliament for Harlow, and it's such a great job that that

13:31

Alison Bennett MP (Mid Sussex, Liberal Democrat)

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is I would just say to him, you know, it's really, really important as we build the National Care as we build the National Care Service, that the voice of family carers, of unpaid carers is heard loud and clear. They have a specific viewpoint on some of the changes that we're trying to achieve. So once we've made that achieve. So once we've made that announcement, I know that whoever it is who's appointed will work very closely with him, particularly

13:31

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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very closely with him, particularly on young carers. Alison Bennett thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm very appreciative that you've called me at this point, because at 150 there is a debate in Westminster Hall on support for unpaid carers, and I encourage all hon. Members to join us. Then my question for the Minister is, does she think that the National Care Service can be funded through efficiencies in the NHS? Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'd like to thank the hon.

Lady not just for her question, but also for seeking the debate that she has done in Westminster Hall. I would apologise to her for not replying to it myself, but there is a sort of time clash going on. So so my my very good friend, Minister in the Health Department, the Member for bury is going to be responding to her. And I would just say to her, the argument that I was making in my contribution is that unless we're prepared to grapple with the issue of social care properly, we will

13:32

Nadia Whittome MP (Nottingham East, Labour)

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pay for the cost of failure, most especially in what we're seeing in especially in what we're seeing in the NHS. So I feel sure that it's the right thing to do financially for the country, as well as to make for the country, as well as to make sure that people can live very good lives into old age. Nadia Whittome

13:32

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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lives into old age. Nadia Whittome thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and I, I very much welcome the Minister's statement today. I'm Minister's statement today. I'm glad that the Prime Minister has already committed to a National Care Service that is free, at the point of use, a vital principle that mirrors our NHS. Would the Minister also agree that one of the key problems in our current system is our reliance on private providers, and will she explore how we can make the new National Care Service publicly run with people who receive care.

Care workers and unpaid carers co-producing that system? Yes. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank my friend for her question. We the system we've got at the moment isn't working. It's far too fragmented, and I've got a lot of concerns about the situation that the workforce face. Members of this House will have noticed yesterday that the Prime Minister responded to a question regarding the role of co-ops in the future of social care, and I'm very interested in all and I'm very interested in all ideas that members have on how we can make sure that we have the best possible mix of organisations possible mix of organisations involved in the national care system.

Doctor Andrew Murrison.

13:33

Rt Hon Dr Andrew Murrison MP (South West Wiltshire, Conservative)

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Madam Deputy Speaker the trauma of care that the Minister refers to includes keeping frail elderly people in acute hospital units well beyond their date of expected discharge. It is dreadful for them. It means that they are likely to succumb to hospital acquired

13:34

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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infections and various other things that are attendant on hospital stays and mean that they are not in homely settings in the community, homely settings in the community, which is where they need to be, where their families want them to be, and which costs a quarter the be, and which costs a quarter the cost of keeping them in an acute hospital unit. Will the National Care Service incorporate savings Care Service incorporate savings that can be made for NHS through getting people the care that they need? That's to say care in the

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need? That's to say care in the community rather than in busy acute hospital beds. Yes. Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question, and I couldn't have put the argument better myself. That is exactly the trauma that I'm referring to. It is a terrible thing to see an older loved one in hospital, which is not a good environment for them, and where you know that they are likely to become

13:35

Rachael Maskell MP (York Central, Labour )

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ill through infection, or they're losing mobility or other things. Nobody wants that. I do think, as I Nobody wants that. I do think, as I responded to the hon. Lady just a moment ago, I do think that's the right thing financially. But frankly, for quality of life reasons, it's got to be done. Rachael Maskell thank you, Madam Rachael Maskell thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I share the minister's pride with my mother turning 89 today, having dedicated turning 89 today, having dedicated her life to the NHS.

But I also extend that pride to the 1.6 million care workers and believe that we could do so much more to lift their confidence in the professional skills that they bring. I welcome the Prime Minister I welcome the Prime Minister extending his interest into care cooperatives, because that can cooperatives, because that can empower staff as well as service users. Could she say, if she will work with the co-op party has done extensive work in this area to extensive work in this area to deliver that model.

13:35

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Yeah. in response to her question. Yes, of course I will. Can I just threw of course I will. Can I just threw her wish her mum an extremely happy 89th birthday. And she and I are 89th birthday. And she and I are both daughters of people who worked in the NHS. And nothing makes me more proud.

13:36

Adam Dance MP (Yeovil, Liberal Democrat)

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Adam Dance thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I first want to welcome the Minister's statement today. There's a lot of good in there, but if we are not getting a national care service in this Parliament, I would ask the Minister what steps the government would take now to ensure continuity of social care across local authority borders, because one one authority borders, because one one constituents mother moved from Dorset to a care home near her family in Somerset. They sought support from the council because support from the council because their personal funds were running out.

Sadly, the constituents mother passed away before the complex dispute over which council should pay was ever resolved.

13:36

Liz Twist MP (Blaydon and Consett, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'd like to thank the hon. Gentleman for bringing this point forward. We have a lot of work to do with our colleagues in local government to get this system right. Helpfully, my previous job was Minister for Local Government, so I'm aware of some of the issues. If you'd like to send me a note with that border issue, I'll happily look into it, because that sounds like the sort of thing that's probably happening in loads of places.

13:37

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Liz Twist thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I first declare Deputy Speaker. May I first declare my interest as co-chair of the unison group of Labour MPs and a unison group of Labour MPs and a unison member? I thank the Minister for the work that she's doing on the workforce issues. But many the workforce issues. But many unpaid carers struggle to balance their caring responsibilities with paid employment, with consequences for their household finances and the future pensions. And indeed, many have to give up work because they can't balance it.

So what steps is the government taking to make sure that carers get the support they need to stay in work if they wish to do so?

13:38

Rt Hon Robert Jenrick MP (Newark, Reform UK)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'd like to thank my friend for her contribution and through her, her contribution and through her, to thank all of the unison group of MPs and unison for their input on this issue. She raises a very important matter. That is one of the reasons why we're going to appoint a champion for unpaid family carers, because in addition to all of the other financial impacts that we've been talking about on this failure, there is the economic impact on the labour force of people giving up work to care for an older loved one, and I think we have to take that impact into consideration as well as we build the new National Care Service.

13:38

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Robert Jenrick instead of cutting foreign aid or net zero cutting foreign aid or net zero subsidies or benefits for migrants, the government has chosen to cut the State Pension to pay for its care system. But most experts agree that that doesn't even touch the sides of the problem. There's an 18 to £40 billion black hole with the Minister accept that to pay for Minister accept that to pay for this. Taxes are going to have to rise a lot. And because people are very worried, will she use this opportunity to rule out the death tax where the government would go after people's homes, their nest after people's homes, their nest egg at the end of their lives?

13:39

Clive Efford MP (Eltham and Chislehurst, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'd like to thank the right hon. Gentleman for his question. I do not accept what he just said, and I

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don't agree with it either. Clive Efford thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I very much welcome Deputy Speaker. I very much welcome the statement. I welcome any move towards a National Care Service, but my hon. Hon. Friend. Hon. Friend knows as much as I do that what people experience out there is what people experience out there is a clash of bureaucracies quite often, which leads to a slowdown in the delivery of care or care the delivery of care or care packages.

Many people stuck in hospitals are there for a variety of reasons, but many of them are because they can't resolve that in order to move them from hospital in a timely fashion. We can't wait for a timely fashion. We can't wait for that to be resolved. That's something that we need to resolve now. And can she give me a now. And can she give me a reassurance that she is working on that? Because if we can solve that, we can solve a large parts of the problem in the next in this Parliament, not have to wait till the next Minister.

13:40

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

13:40

Ian Sollom MP (St Neots and Mid Cambridgeshire, Liberal Democrat)

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I'd like to thank my hon. Friend for his contribution. He makes exactly the argument as to why we exactly the argument as to why we have to take steps now to improve the system, and in my statement, I mentioned the increase in the number of organisations using number of organisations using digital care records to help smooth the system, but it also takes the the system, but it also takes the working together of NHS organisations, local authorities and care companies. And this is and care companies.

And this is happening in some places. The problem is it's not everywhere and he's absolutely spot on. We've got to do this now.

13:40

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Ian Sollom thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. My constituent Maxwell has spinal muscular atrophy and needs a significant amount of personal care. He's just started a graduate job, but because of the frozen £23,250 capital limit, any frozen £23,250 capital limit, any savings he builds up go on care charges so he can't save a deposit for a home or the safety net that his disability demands. Now, the Member for East Hampshire said that we assume it, but will the Minister confirm that the free personal care will be included for working age disabled adults like Maxwell? And until it arrives, would she unfreeze and raise the capital limit? So we're not placing a limit on his aspiration here.

13:41

Matt Rodda MP (Reading Central, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'd like to thank the hon. Member for raising his constituents Member for raising his constituents situation. If he would like to send me details, I'll of of that, I'll happily look into it and formally reply to him and his constituents. Constituent Baroness Cases Commission is working on recommendations for fixing the social care for everyone who needs it, including working age adults. But I would just acknowledge that some of the challenges are different, so we need to take that into account as we move forward to into account as we move forward to the future system.

13:41

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Matt Rodda thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Could I declare an interest, as I have a close relative working in the care sector? I would like to welcome the Minister statement today on this very, very important matter. Could she say a little bit more about how the department, she planned to build a consensus across the wider community and with stakeholders, as well as with political parties?

13:42

Dr Ellie Chowns MP (North Herefordshire, Green Party)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'd like to thank the my hon. Friend for his question and Friend for his question and whichever of his relatives it is. He's working hard in social care. He's working hard in social care. I've been very, very lucky to be in touch with a wide number of organisations. We had a an opening organisations. We had a an opening meeting with lots of organisations in the department a month or so ago, and there is a lot of expertise out there. This issue has to be seen differently from the viewpoint of those who were involved in the different parts, but also the different conditions and different experiences people had. So I feel positive about that work. So far, many people have engaged with the KC Commission and I'm sure we'll do so going forward.

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Doctor Ellie Chowns. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I really welcome this statement I really welcome this statement from the Minister today, as I'm sure will many people in North Herefordshire, people who draw on care, people who provide care, both care, people who provide care, both paid and unpaid. I'd like to ask the Minister, did she agree with me that, you know, we really need to end the lottery of care, the postcode lottery of care being provided in different ways, in different places, and the life lottery of your access to care being partly determined by your circumstances and the lottery of whether you end up having catastrophic care costs at the end of your life and potentially losing your life savings.

And so can we agree that we need to ensure that care is locally provided but nationally funded? And will she lobby her colleague, the Chancellor, to include fair taxation of wealth in the mechanisms that she considers to fund that?

13:43

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Thank you. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'd like to thank the hon. Lady for her contribution. She makes a good argument. I think we would all see about how disjointed and fragmented the system is. The the shadow Health Secretary is trying to help me out by explaining that her. Her me out by explaining that her. Her question was probably slightly out of scope of my policy responsibilities, but I will certainly mention to the Chancellor certainly mention to the Chancellor if I bump into him that she had a view she'd like to share with him.

13:44

Mr Clive Betts MP (Sheffield South East, Labour)

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Clive Betts thank you.

13:44

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Friend and we really talked about this issue for so many years, and it's time we get on with it and try and get cross-party agreement as well, while we're waiting for the case report. And I know Louise from old will be robust and independent old will be robust and independent in. What she recommends is the idea that we set out a national framework where government lays down standards and hopefully the funding, and then the service is organised at local level by local authorities, working closely with primary care, with public health and with local housing providers who are often missed out in the important joint that we have to achieve.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'd like to thank my hon. Friend for his question and for his experience on this, which he has shared to me, shared with me over many years, and I really appreciate it. He describes that situation it. He describes that situation well. We we both need a system that is much less fragmented and easier to understand, and also one that

13:45

David Chadwick MP (Brecon, Radnor and Cwm Tawe, Liberal Democrat)

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to understand, and also one that responds to the local context, very different. Providing care in urban versus rural areas, for example. So we have to think through those issues. There are certain things which I've laid out in my statement that I think we need to crack on with now, such as giving young people the chance of a job in social care and other issues will work through alongside local government colleagues. And, as he

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Chadwick. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Those demographic statistics are alarming. In Paris, the average occupancy rate across the community hospitals in the nursing beds is 91% in Tunbridge Wells, 82% in Julian Lewis. Yet Paris Teaching Health Board is currently consulting on potentially cutting the number of community hospital

13:46

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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the number of community hospital beds from 160 to 60. Does the Minister agree with me that community hospital beds play a vital role in the care system? And do you share my concern that if those beds were to be cut, it would just mean that more elderly residents from Wales are left stranded in English hospitals?

13:46

Darren Paffey MP (Southampton Itchen, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'd like to thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. I'm sure the health board that he refers to that covers his constituency will have heard his opinion very strongly, given we need to make the system work better, and I'm sure they will want to reply to him directly.

13:46

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Darren Paffey thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. praising care workers up and down the country? And I pay particular tribute to those who gave such excellent care to both my parents excellent care to both my parents in their final years. Madam Deputy Speaker, from day one, as an MP, my constituents in Southampton Itchen constituents in Southampton Itchen have come with increasingly distressing stories of what is happening when things go wrong, so I really welcome the long term statement to to put it right.

But in the meantime, given the urgency, while we wait for Baroness Casey, can my hon. Friend assure us that there is a plan to do the most urgent improvements, starting now?

13:47

Ben Lake MP (Ceredigion Preseli, Plaid Cymru)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and yes, I can assure my friend of that. That's part of the reason for this statement today, whether it's on workforce, making sure that we make improvements on technology, local authority commissioning or the initial recommendations of the Casey Review on MND, on safeguarding and dementia, we those things that are urgent and can be done now we are getting on with them.

13:47

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Ben Lake can I congratulate the Minister not only on the statement, but specifically on the the creation of a National Care Service. creation of a National Care Service. It will undoubtedly have a transformational impact on so many people. Can I ask whether she'll ensure that representatives from political parties in Wales can be included in some of these cross-party talks for. Although the provision of social care in Wales is a devolved responsibility, there are important considerations, including the arrangements for cross-border packages and matters of funding that are perhaps best understood and addressed at an early stage.

13:48

Neil Duncan-Jordan MP (Poole, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and let me say to the hon. Gentleman, and I would say, yes, we can. We can definitely do that. As somebody whose constituency is very close to North Wales, I understand what he means.

13:48

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Neil Duncan-Jordan thank you, >> Neil Duncan-Jordan thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I welcome the government's move towards a National Care Service because, as National Care Service because, as the Minister said in her statement, everybody knows that we won't fix everybody knows that we won't fix the NHS until we fix social care. But tens of thousands of care workers are currently facing a change to their immigration status. We shouldn't be changing the rules for those that are already here and making a valuable contribution to both the care sector and our wider society.

Does the Minister agree? Yes.

13:49

Mike Reader MP (Northampton South, Labour)

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And thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Now, the the issue that the my hon. Friend raises is is rightly one for the Home Office, and I will pass on his question to the relevant Minister. I would just say, in addition, whether it's the NHS and its founding and its creation or social care down the years where people have come to put in a shift and take care of the ones we love, we're grateful to them. Thank you.

13:49

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, could the Minister confirm? And I think she has to previous answer already, but that the interface between health and social care will remain front and centre of the National Care Service, particularly not only for those being discharged from hospital once people are in care, particularly residential care, the challenges of accessing health services back into the system. Yes.

13:49

Jodie Gosling MP (Nuneaton, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and I'm very, very happy to confirm that point. To my hon. Friend. I think we all understand how challenging and bureaucratic that border between health and care can be, and that is one of the urgent matters that I'm looking at.

13:50

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Jodie Gosling thank you, Madam Speaker. I really welcome the statement and especially the recognition of the trauma caused to families when services fail, which families when services fail, which is why it's so important to preserve strong local services like Mary Ann Evans Hospice in Nuneaton, Mary Ann Evans Hospice in Nuneaton, which provides dignity and death to thousands of families at home but is currently on the breadline in insolvency. Talks, with last minute legacy donations extending the deadline from the end of this month to the end of the year.

I'm in talks with the ICB and we're doing everything, but there is a fundamental formula problem with the funding level. So what can we do to protect these fragile services now so that we can build on them in the future?

13:51

Brian Leishman MP (Alloa and Grangemouth, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker And can I just thank the my hon. Friend and just pay tribute to all the work that she is doing with her local hospice and with her community on this issue, and members across this House will understand that we have a challenge in hospice funding, which I'm looking at as part of the end of life care work that I'm doing. It sounds like she is more than on top

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of it with her ICB, but if I can be of any assistance to her at all, I'd be happy to do so. Brian Leishman thanks very much,

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Brian Leishman thanks very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I know the creation of a National Care Service is in the very best socialist traditions of the Labour Party. However, pensioners funding its creation through the removal of the creation through the removal of the triple lock is not. Especially when we have over 2 million pensioners

13:51

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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we have over 2 million pensioners living in poverty. Now, the IFS have said that the £15 billion worth of savings by the reduction of the triple lock is actually more like £4 billion, and making any savings is a bit of a speculative gamble because if we see high inflation, then there's potentially no savings to be made. So if there is going to be a financial shortfall in providing the National Care Service, how will it be funded and realised?

13:52

Richard Baker MP (Glenrothes and Mid Fife, Labour)

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So thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'd like to thank my friend for his question. In friend for his question. In responding to him. I would just like to quote the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions in his statement to the House this week, who said that we know people want security in retirement, and we are committed to protecting the poorest committed to protecting the poorest pensioners, and under our plans, pensioner poverty is set to fall. I pensioner poverty is set to fall.

I hope that my friend will have read the statement that the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions made earlier this week, and I think I earlier this week, and I think I hope that he will understand why. I'll respectfully disagree with him. Richard Baker Madam Deputy Speaker In Scotland, our health and social care partnerships face a £500 million funding shortfall and the SNP failed to deliver on their commitment to establish a National Care service for Scotland. Will the Minister assure me that as the government takes forward its vital plans for social care she has set out today, will she will ensure that her counterparts in the that her counterparts in the Scottish Government are regularly updated on this work so they can learn how improvements in social care can be made effectively and they can be encouraged to fulfil.

Finally, their pledge for the improved social care services my constituents need as well.

13:53

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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So thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'd like to thank my hon. Friend for raising this very important question. I'll certainly important question. I'll certainly agree to the suggestion that he makes, because when I've heard about the situation in Scotland, I have to say that it worries me, have to say that it worries me, Madam Deputy Speaker, so I'll happily agree to his suggestion.

13:53

Nesil Caliskan MP (Barking, Labour)

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Nesil Caliskan thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker and as I listened with great interest to the Minister of her statement on the

13:53

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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care sector in a country that has persistent vacancies, I was thinking about the 1 in 6 young people in my constituency of people in my constituency of barking who are out of employment and not in education. And with that in mind, Madam Deputy Speaker, can in mind, Madam Deputy Speaker, can I ask the Minister does she agree with me that building a National care service means we can improve care service means we can improve care for older people, but also create rewarding career pathways for young people in my constituency

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for young people in my constituency to through training and better care in the care sector. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'd like to thank my friend for that question. I've visited her constituency before, and I know what amazing young people there are, and they deserve a better chance. I think working in care can be an absolutely fantastic career, particularly if you're a young person who's perhaps experienced person who's perhaps experienced unemployment. Maybe you need a bit of confidence actually being in an emotionally intelligent profession emotionally intelligent profession like social care can be a really great start to your career.

So I'll happily work with her on that if she'd like.

13:54

Chris Hinchliff MP (North East Hertfordshire, Labour)

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Chris Hinchliff Madam Deputy Speaker. And can I thank the Minister for her powerful statement? Today, 84% of care beds in England

13:54

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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are run by private companies, and Baroness Casey has highlighted that currently, private equity is often currently, private equity is often holding councils to ransom so they can extract maximum profit for the public purse. Noting the minister's public purse. Noting the minister's earlier answers on ownership models, can the Minister confirm that Labour's National Care service will Labour's National Care service will put an end to the essential care of our parents and grandparents, being used as a profiteering investment

13:55

Lizzi Collinge MP (Morecambe and Lunesdale, Labour)

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vehicle by private equity? >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I would refer my friend to both the comments that I made in my statement about the importance of putting people first, and also to the response that the Prime Minister gave yesterday about the development of co-op organisations in the care system. I think we can make important progress on this, and I'm happy to work with him to do that.

13:55

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Lizzi Collinge thank you, Madam. >> Lizzi Collinge thank you, Madam. >> Deputy Speaker. >> I draw the House's attention to my membership of unison, and firstly, I'd like to pay tribute to firstly, I'd like to pay tribute to former conservative county councillor David Westley, who I found out has recently passed away. He was the chair of the Lancashire Health and Adult Services Scrutiny Committee. I served as his deputy and we worked together in Lancashire to try and address the problems that the Minister is trying to sort out now.

Now my constituency has large rural areas, so can the Minister assure me that the problems in rural care will be addressed as part of her plans?

13:56

Mohammad Yasin MP (Bedford, Labour)

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Minister thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I thank my friend for her question and could I, through her, pay my respects to Councillor David's family and all of those who love him and miss him? I have already mentioned in response to colleagues. Actually, it is important to think about this from the point of view of the different communities that we have across England. There are challenges in rural areas and we need to be

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cognisant of them as we move forward and think about the shape of what the care service looks like on the ground. Mohammad Yasin you.

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Mohammad Yasin you. Very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I welcome the government's commitment to put in unpaid carers commitment to put in unpaid carers at the heart of a National Care Service. But as I heard when I Service. But as I heard when I visited blue Sky Carers Support Hub in Bedford recently, this must mean

13:57

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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in Bedford recently, this must mean more than words. So what concrete, properly funded commitments will the government make to ensure unpaid carers receive meaningful breaks, financial security and support to balance caring with work or education, particularly young carers, so that we don't just recognise carers but really care for the caregivers.

13:57

Alistair Strathern MP (Hitchin, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'd like to thank my friend for his I'd like to thank my friend for his question. He raises, rightly, a really important issue. We can't really think about the welfare of people who are receiving care if we're not thinking about the welfare of people caring for them. This is why we are going to appoint an unpaid champion for unpaid carers. Who can be that voice as we build the new National Care Service, to make sure that all of the issues that he rightly raises are considered and taken forward

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through this process. Alistair Strathern thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I think most of us or our friends and family of us or our friends and family will be familiar with the really personal, emotional, financial and frankly, human cost of our broken system. And it's a cost resulting system. And it's a cost resulting from successive generations of politicians failure to face into the difficult choices and act. And the difficult choices and act. And I hold my own parties accountable as any other in that.

So I thank the Minister and the Prime Minister

13:58

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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not just for stepping up on this, but also facing into some of the difficult choices, including the triple lock adjustment that will be needed to fund it. My constituents tell me they'll be perfectly happy to pay more to make sacrifices. If they can be confident they'll be getting the care they need when they grow older. So will the Minister assure my constituents that over the next Parliament, every penny we're saving through that triple lock adjustment will be invested by her in ensuring the care service that my constituents really deserve.

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Minister thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank my friend for Speaker, and I thank my friend for an insightful and important question and the work that he does, making sure that his constituents making sure that his constituents views are put forward here. I think what matters in order to fulfil the test that he sets for the National test that he sets for the National Care Service is to be really clear on outcomes, because a number of members have mentioned the travesty members have mentioned the travesty of people staying in hospital longer than they need to be.

A number of members across the House have mentioned how traumatic it is when you experience a loved one towards the end of their life, not towards the end of their life, not cared for in the way that we would wish. So we've all got to be clear about what the outcomes are that we about what the outcomes are that we want to see from this new service, and then we'll be able to meet the test as constituents set.

13:59

Samantha Niblett MP (South Derbyshire, Labour)

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Samantha Niblett thank you,

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Madam Deputy Speaker. The reason I joined the Labour Party in my 30s quite late was because of the National Health because of the National Health Service and the welfare state, two incredibly important institutions in this country that look after people at their most vulnerable. If people at their most vulnerable. If it were after today, the National Care Service would be the third reason I would be joining the Labour Party. The reason I Labour Party. The reason I mentioned this is because in my constituency of South Derbyshire, we saw the closure of most beloved care home called Castle Castle care home called Castle Castle Court Care Home in Gresley by the reform led County Council.

So it's quite galling to see a couple of their county councillors this week celebrate the fact it's been bought by a private company. Hurrah for them coming in to save the day, by the way, when they were the ones responsible for closing it, putting staff out of a job and residents staff out of a job and residents out of a home. So does the Minister agree with me that it's Labour and only ever Labour governments that do this sort of thing and create institutions that look after people when they need the help the most? Yes, Minister.

Yes, Minister.

14:00

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'd like to thank my friend for that question, and I'd like through her to thank all of those people who've campaigned for good care in her constituency. She tempts me,

14:00

Andrew Pakes MP (Peterborough, Labour )

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Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm trying to be very cross-party today. And she is she is sparking my inner party political fire. But I would just political fire. But I would just say to her that all of us can make a contribution. All parties can make a contribution in getting this make a contribution in getting this right. We are rightly proud of our party, the Labour Party's role in founding the NHS, and I want us to founding the NHS, and I want us to be just as proud of what we do to create this National Care Service.

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From this point on. Andrew Pakes thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I refer to my Deputy Speaker. Can I refer to my register of interest as a GMB member? Can I welcome today's statement and thank the Minister statement and thank the Minister for grasping the issue of a National Care Service, because for National Care Service, because for too many constituents in my constituency of Peterborough, it's been a national service with many been a national service with many of the big care providers owned by private venture capital or backed by private venture capital.

I think all of us, as MPs, will recognise casework constituents we meet where people feel they have no voice when it comes to the care system, be that people in care, their families or our amazing, brilliant care

14:01

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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workers who don't get listened to enough in the system. The Prime Minister gave a very powerful Minister gave a very powerful commitment yesterday alongside the example of his father, that co-operation and co-operative values will be integral to how we values will be integral to how we build a service which we can be proud of. Can the Minister, my right hon. Friend, give a commitment that the likes of not commitment that the likes of not just Co-op party, but also co-ops UK and existing examples of brilliant care co-operatives are brilliant care co-operatives are fully involved in the department's work. As we think about the diversity of provision we need.

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Minister thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank my friend for Speaker, and I thank my friend for that contribution. He is absolutely right. People feel like the current system is a fog. At best. It is totally fractured and it is too hard to navigate for people when hard to navigate for people when they're already dealing with what is of some of life's biggest challenges. So those co-op values are an important factor of what we're thinking about as we move forward in the National Care Service.

He mentions the Prime Minister's comments yesterday, and I'm really glad to confirm that, because we're trying to make sure that people are empowered and have their voices heard and people work together for the good of those who need care. Those are exactly the values that we want to bring to this discussion.

14:02

Legislation: Second reading of the Highways (Financing) Bill

Can I thank the.

14:03

Alison McGovern MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Birkenhead, Labour)

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Minister for her. Statement this afternoon? Can I ask members who are leaving the chamber to do so as quickly as possible, and I will allow a few moments for the front allow a few moments for the front benches to swap over. The clerk will now proceed to read the orders of the day.

14:03

Justin Madders MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Transport) (Ellesmere Port and Bromborough, Labour)

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14:14

Rt Hon Richard Holden MP (Basildon and Billericay, Conservative)

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14:30

Mike Reader MP (Northampton South, Labour)

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remove your lanyard for your security, but also for your safety. I want to start though, but why this matters to Northampton? Why would an MP for Northampton be would an MP for Northampton be talking about a scheme in Essex and Kent? Well, Northampton sits at the Kent? Well, Northampton sits at the heart of the logistics network. 2640 logistics businesses operate out of Northamptonshire. That's 35,000 people work in haulage and logistics in my county. Every day, goods move between warehouses in my constituency and the channel ports, many of them crossing through the Thames via Dartford. And when Dartford jams

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Up. Those costs are felt in my constituency. It's felt across the Midlands and I support this bill. I think it is the right thing to do think it is the right thing to do to deal with that problem, but I agree with the view of the RA and many hauliers that we must also many hauliers that we must also consider the cost on freight operators and when these licensing agreements come forward, that we consider the considerable costs and fuel costs that many businesses in my constituency are facing. Now, my constituency are facing. Now, planning has long been the biggest barrier to building roads. The DCO process for Lower Thames particularly, has been tortuous, and I know that fact unfortunately first hand. But the second biggest barrier has often been money. The Treasury can only fund so many projects at one time, and every project competes for the same pot. And this bill brings in the private capital to build things that would otherwise sit in the queue. And I've long argued that private finance does work in the sector. We saw when the Silvertown Tunnel opened early last year, it showed that modern public private partnerships can deliver for taxpayers. And I still believe that. But I want to be straight with this House because when I spoke to the Minister who's responsible now, the current Minister, this is an ambitious thing we are doing. The regulated asset base model is not used elsewhere in the world. I believe, for road infrastructure. Traditionally, we see it delivered through concessions or availability based PPP. But I was concerned initially, so I went out and spoke to industry rather than sitting and shouting at the department. So where's the money coming from? I went and spoke to investors. I went to spoke to investors through the Gia, through some of the big advisers to the investment community on this project. And they said, actually, this is quite an exciting opportunity, particularly because it should reduce the cost of capital by creating a regulated return with reviewed by an independent regulator. It should deliver cheaper finance and importantly, more competition for that finance. So it's completely right that department can't say who's funding it, because we need to go out and run that competition to get that funding in the first place. The better certainty we give to the market through a model like

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this, the better chances we have of securing that finance at a much obviously. Spent a lot of time looking into

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Spent a lot of time looking into this, and I commend him for that. As a result of his discussions, As a result of his discussions, could he estimate a when we might know who the funders will be? Is it another year or two or when and be. What does he think the initial toll

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will be for a lorry going through the tunnel as he's obviously spoken to the Road Haulage Association as well. Mike Reader.

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Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wouldn't want to speculate on the government's timetable for this. I think what's important this bill think what's important this bill goes through. Then we go through the licensing arrangement to find the the right partners to deliver this. And obviously finance. But, this. And obviously finance. But, you know, the delays that happened under the previous government, the first failed DCO when they first failed DCO when they completely ignored the local community. And then the second DCO ended up in the courts because, as my hon.

Friend said, the challenges brought forward by the environmental lobby were not dealt with, and I'm really disappointed to see the government, the opposition, playing that card now, when they stood up and campaigned against the Planning and Infrastructure Act, which brought forward many measures which would have solved the problems that Lower Thames had. But the question of risk is another important point on this, because a Rab model moves construction risk onto the people who are financing and building and delivering the scheme, but the treatment of risk in delivery of a major infrastructure project can make the difference between success and failure.

And the question is who holds that risk? The Competition and Markets Authority review into the civil engineering sector rightly identified, particularly for major projects, the transfer of risk down the supply chain from tier one, from finances into supply chain can make a big difference to the insolvency and how that project is delivered. So we have to make sure that in the licensing arrangements for that come through this bill, there is provision for government to require equitable risk management and risk treatment within the delivery of projects and prompt payment through the supply chain to make sure that there's billions and billions of pounds of investment, that money flows through quickly into the supply chain and isn't stuck at tier one level.

And so I have a couple of questions for the Minister to round off, and I'm very grateful for his and his predecessors engagement on this bill. The Secretary of State told the Transport Committee that the process for setting tolls in the first settlement period, which would answer the right hon. Member's question, would be set out as the bill progresses. Can the Minister confirm that is still the case? The Standard Licence Commission conditions will be set by the Secretary of State without parliamentary procedure.

So will the government commit to publishing the core principles for investor return and price reviews before any licence is guaranteed? The Bill puts new requirements on the ORR, who I've had relatively good experiences with, but this is a new skill and capability they had to have. So what is the government going to do to strengthen the capability of the ORR to manage these contracts effectively and on existing roads? To address the point from the shadow bench, the government confirmed already in a written answer, they have no plans to currently use these powers to toll roads that are currently free.

And I welcome that. So could the Minister, in his closing remarks, put that that confusion beyond doubt from the Dispatch Box Madam Deputy Speaker many or some will say this is a pay per journey model that will change Britain's roads, but I don't believe it is. It's a. It's a way of getting the biggest schemes, the schemes that that get stalled for years, if not generations, off the drawing pad and into delivery. And I fully support this bill.

14:37

Olly Glover MP (Didcot and Wantage, Liberal Democrat)

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14:50

Daniel Francis MP (Bexleyheath and Crayford, Labour)

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with. And I know very much so that conversations are already being had between the Dartford Crossing and the M6 toll about the the M6 toll about the interoperability and bringing those systems into one arrangement and looking at how we can encourage looking at how we can encourage that across all toll systems in our country. So, as I say, for my business, I'm sure they would welcome bringing those toll roads welcome bringing those toll roads and crossings into one system. And and similarly for those Motability and similarly for those Motability users. So I do support the bill, Madam Deputy Speaker, it will bring benefits for my constituents through the delivery of the Lower Thames Crossing. It will allow that conversation. I hope, to start on interoperability, which will support those businesses and reduce complexity both for them to help encourage growth in our economy and for Motability customers. And so I

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warmly welcome the bill, and I look forward to hearing the Minister's comments later in the debate. So, Christopher Chope.

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So, Christopher Chope. Deputy Speaker, it's a pleasure. To follow the hon. Gentleman. And I think that the problems with relation to the different varieties of charges and the way in which they are enforced, is not just a problem for people with just a problem for people with disabilities, it's also a problem for the general motorists. And that's why the current dart charge, that's why the current dart charge, for example, as I understand it, almost half is the income from

14:51

Sir Christopher Chope MP (Christchurch, Conservative)

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15:12

Ruth Cadbury MP (Brentford and Isleworth, Labour)

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15:21

Jim Dickson MP (Dartford, Labour)

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Jim Dickson thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. My constituents. Will be delighted to see this piece of legislation before the House. It is, as others have said, the key to unlocking new infrastructure and finally ending the traffic chaos that plagues my Dartford constituency daily. With the new Lower Thames Crossing planned to be the first new road project funded in this way, the Dartford Crossing and the M25 motorway, which, along with the A two A two, provides access to it cut across the heart of my constituency, providing, as has been said by others, the one crossing over the Thames east of London, and this represents a single point of failure and fail.

It often does this. This crossing. The Dartford Crossing was designed for 135,000 vehicles a day, and, as has been said by the Minister, the crossing now averages 150,000 vehicles a day and needs to be carefully managed around the clock. And when failure happens, it's the residents of Dartford that pay the highest price. When the crossing has to close, which happens regularly, it leaves the town at a complete standstill. Journeys that should take ten minutes can take 4 to 5 hours.

Children can't get home from school, tradespeople can't get to jobs and medical appointments are missed. And Dartford residents have been waiting for years for this to be addressed. Earlier this year, for example, on the 23rd of January, an Overheight lorry somehow evaded the sensors designed to detect and halt such vehicles and caused significant damage to the roof of one of the tunnels, leading to a closure of more than 30 hours an absolute chaos for residents on both sides of the crossing, as traffic backed up for miles around.

And even when there isn't a major issue like the tunnel closure, most days see heavy traffic for those heading northbound in the evening. 95% of journeys feature delays, with two thirds taking twice as long as they should. This high level of slow moving traffic also has health impacts on Dartford residents, with air quality far below what we should expect for our country more widely. Delays crossing affect goods coming to and from ports in the South east, with the delays estimated to cost the UK more than £200 million every year in time lost sitting in traffic.

It's therefore incredibly welcome that the building of the Lower Thames Crossing is now proceeding rapidly forward, after moving slower than traffic over the Dartford Crossing on a bad day under the last government. And now we've seen the recent amendment to this bill declining to give it a Second Reading because they don't believe the government can deliver it on time, which is quite some accusation, given their record of how can I put this kindly glacial progress on this project? 14 years of dither and delay followed today in this House by active attempts to block progress.

That's going to go down really well in Dartford, and I have no doubt Dartford Conservatives will be ecstatic at the antics of their colleagues in the House today. The new crossing, when it's finished, will take over 10 million vehicles away from Dartford, freeing up almost a full lane of traffic. It's also going to be hugely beneficial for the local economy. Thousands of jobs will be created during construction, with half the workforce recruited locally, and I hope this will kick start a whole generation of new careers in construction for young people across North Kent and Essex, and once built, the new road will increase access to jobs for those living on both sides of the Thames, providing crucial employment opportunities for my constituents and others living nearby.

The campaign to get this piece of infrastructure up and running has been the single biggest priority in my time as Dartford's MP, and I really welcome this bill as a crucial step forward towards getting the crossing built and open, and I want to send my thanks to residents, businesses, large and small organisations across Dartford and North Kent. National trade bodies including logistics UK local government representatives and from colleagues across this House and in the other place for their support with the campaign, and to the Secretary of State for Transport and Treasury Ministers, including the previous and present Chancellors, for the planning and the funding decisions that they have already made.

I appreciate the Roads Minister's time to discuss this project in the summer, and hope he will indulge me by answering just a few outstanding queries that I have about the operation of this bill and its impact on the new crossing. Firstly, and most importantly, on tolls. Local residents in Dartford and in Thurrock are entitled to discounted use of the Dartford Crossing. Can the Minister clarify if this legislation has any impact on the operation of a future resident discount scheme for both Dartford and for the new crossing? It's crucial for my residents at the tolls across the two crossings are set at an equal value, as well as remaining affordable via the discount scheme, and I'd be grateful for any assurance the Minister can provide on this issue.

The arrangement clearly won't work if there's a financial incentive for goods vehicles to use one crossing rather than the other. It's important to recognise that at its core, this bill allows private companies who are licensed by the government to charge tolls on newly built roads, the mechanism by which we unlock capital to build much needed new infrastructure. British motorists already pay substantial revenue to the government through fuel duty and vehicle excise duty. So would the Minister agree that while tolls on new infrastructure are right to use in certain circumstances such as this, we really don't want to see new toll roads created on currently untolled highways, and I'm sure the Minister will be able to give us reassurance on that.

I also have some concerns about the vulnerabilities highlighted by the government's final stage impact assessment with the Office of Road and Rail, which has been appointed as the independent regulator. How will Ministers address the concerns that have been raised about information asymmetry, including that in some cases, private firms bidding for and then building and operating the development may possess more detailed information about actual project delivery and operational costs than the ORR, and that this might allow them to inflate costs with knock on inflation to the charges that users will eventually pay.

So some reassurance that that will be useful. Notwithstanding those queries, which I'm sure the Minister can answer. I'm very, very happy to support this. Very welcome, Bill, and I know that it is widely welcomed as the key to unlocking the critical funding needed to build this vital piece of new infrastructure here.

15:28

Jen Craft MP (Thurrock, Labour)

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15:42

Rt Hon Mark Francois MP (Rayleigh and Wickford, Conservative)

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Yeah. Sorry. Mark Francois. apologising to the hon. Lady for Thurrock for missing a bit of her speech? Just to be clear, I. I speech? Just to be clear, I. I nipped upstairs briefly to see the Children's Parliament in action in room 14. It's something our great friend Sir David was passionate friend Sir David was passionate about, so I hope the House will forgive my absence. No disrespect was intended. If it helps, I. I've heard anecdotally there's a lot of support for bringing back the Tilbury Ferry, so if I say that, perhaps you'll.

Perhaps you'll. She'll forgive me. There's been some debate about whether or not the Conservative Party were committed to to long term infrastructure projects. Just for the record, in 1963, the first Dartford Tunnel opened. I think Sir Alec Douglas-Home was Prime Minister at the time. In 1986, the first section of the M25 was opened by Margaret Thatcher. In 1991, the QE2 bridge opened. In 1994. The Channel Tunnel opened both during the premiership of John Major, so we can trade historical dates, but I think those four examples show fairly conclusively that the Conservative Party has been committed to major infrastructure down the decades on the Lower Thames Crossing.

As I said before, in an earlier intervention, the truth is this has a very long and complex history. I know the hon. Lady for Thurrock constituency. It's been very controversial also in what is now South Basildon and East Thurrock. This really had a genesis, I think, under the Blair and then Brown government. So it goes back a very long way. And it is a fact that the project has been delayed by multiple consultation exercises over a period of years.

But we are where we are, and because of the points that my friend from Christchurch was making about the whole history of the tolls on the QE2 bridge, and were they ever going to be cancelled or not? Because of that, I hope the Minister would understand that there's understandable scepticism, certainly in South Essex, about what would ever happen to the tolls on the Lower Thames Crossing. Now I have, for the record, asked the Transport Secretary three times on the floor of the House over the last year or so, which financial institutions are now going to finance the 85 to 90% residual cost of the Lower Thames Crossing? And I hope the hon.

Gentleman from the Midlands said about these negotiations are still ongoing, but I hope the Minister will understand, in all seriousness, that given the history of the whole project, he could understand why some people in south Essex are sceptical that the government can't yet tell us which companies or financial institutions would in fact, pay for it. So I wonder if, when his hon. Friend winds up, he could answer two very specific questions. In fact, three about the Lower Thames Crossing itself.

One, given all of this complex history, what is the government's latest estimated year in which the crossing will open to traffic? Two what is the government's latest estimate of what would be the toll when it opens for a family car? And what is the government's latest estimate when it opens? What would the toll be for a 38 tonne lorry? So those are three very specific questions. I'd be grateful if the Minister could at least attempt to answer in his wind up.

For the record. I want this crossing to go ahead, but I want to know when, and I want to know what it's going to cost my constituents to drive through it, be they a private motorist or a lorry driver. So this bill is about highways financing. So I want to just add a few more minutes to explain to the Minister who I've dealt with before in a different context, when he had a different job, and he's always struck me as a reasonable man.

So let's get that on the record. But I wonder if he could understand the frustration in South Essex over this recent decision to cancel the proposed upgrades to the A27 that included a scheme to straighten out what is now the chicane, in effect at the Old Fortune of War roundabout, and also to add a third lane to the A27 in the south inbound direction between the halfway house as it's known, and the site of the old fortune of war.

Both of those would have increased flow and capacity on the A one two, seven. The incoming Labour government some months ago cancelled a proposed widening of the A12, which has been in gestation for almost as long as the Lower Thames Crossing. So I just hope the Minister could understand why in South Essex this has caused immense frustration. The government. A different department MCHLG want to build 100,000 houses from greys to Shoeburyness. That's their departmental objective.

The Department of Health and Social Care have a challenge, particularly at Basildon Hospital, which is pretty much maxed out as it is, according to the NHS own planning metric, they work on a basis of 2.4 additional potential patients per dwelling. So the plans say there'll be 28,000 additional houses in Basildon Borough, 35,000 in Thurrock, thanks to Reform and Labour, so that's 63,000 in total. So when you add the 2.4 multiplier, that's 151,200 additional patients, at least by my maths for a hospital at Basildon, which is completely maxed out today.

As it is, I see the hon. Lady is, you know, nodding assent to that. The hospital is rated inadequate by the CQC. It's part of a trust. The media house has. The Mid and South Essex Hospitals Trust, with Broomfield at Chelmsford and Southend, which is a failing organisation. So how can you build all those houses where there is no real plan of any kind to expand the capacity at the hospital? And now we're cutting road programmes on the A27, which is one of the two fundamental east west arterial roads between London and south Essex.

And the A12 obviously feeds into that area from the north. So the point that I'm seeking to get across to the Minister is none of this is joined up. We've got one department of the government that wants to just build vast numbers of houses. We've got another Department of the government which is responsible for healthcare and has no idea whatsoever how to cater for what could be a quarter of a million extra people if you use the NHS metric.

And we've got the Department for transport cancelling upgrades to the roads which were supposed to increase capacity, the A27 and the A13 in the morning and evening peak are 99% capacity as it is Minister. I've seen the heat maps and the darker the red, the busier the. Sorry, the busier the road, the darker the red. And both those roads metaphorically glow scarlet in the morning and the evening peak. So we've got three different government departments with completely conflicting objectives.

But my constituents in South Essex and other people who live there have to bear the consequences. So having dealt with the Minister before on a constituency case, which I won't go into now, he was very reasonable then and he did listen. So my plea to him this afternoon is please accept what I'm saying is true, and please don't cancel anything else in Essex. And for God's sake, whatever you do, don't cancel the upgrade to the end interchange at Rayleigh on the A 127.

Because if you think I'm upset now, you want to see me, then. So those are the points I wanted to make, Madam Deputy Speaker some of them directly about the Lower Thames Crossing, some of them about other issues. But I think my fundamental point about these key infrastructure projects is it's all got to be joined up. And we cannot tolerate a situation where we've got three different government departments, which is only responsible for one, pulling in three totally different directions.

I hope that's not an unreasonable point to try and make and a debate of this kind. And with that, I rest my case.

15:51

Tristan Osborne MP (Chatham and Aylesford, Labour)

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Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. It's a real pleasure to speak alongside other pleasure to speak alongside other colleagues today, from Dartford and to see the Member for Gravesham here and also speak to others across south Essex that will directly benefit from this, this project. I think everyone will know that if you've travelled down the stretch, that this crossing is absolutely vital part of the North Kent infrastructure and we know when there are problems with the Dartford Bridge, that these can spread all the way down into south east London, but actually into Kent, including into the area of Medway where I represent. I want to speak to four elements to this today. So first of all, actually the benefits of the new crossing in terms of the the direct investment it could see in both Essex and in Medway in my local area. And why that's so critical. Second of all, the, the, the, the vehicle that is going to be used by the government to deliver this and learning from the National Audit Office, review of the Sizewell programme and others, some of the considerations from that that we need to be mindful of around costs. The the, the opposition's amendment. And then lastly, the importance of this to get it delivered on time and necessity. So as many will be aware, the crossings itself at Dartford was originally conceived to over the years to cater for 136,000 vehicle movements, is currently now catering over 150,000. We know through projections that freight movements are due to increase over the next 15 years, as has been mentioned by my colleague. On the other side, we are due to see expansion of population across all of the South Essex and North Kent corridor over the next 15 years. As part of that urban sprawl that is moving east of London. And so we know that capacity on many road networks, including the ones he's mentioned, but in my area as well, on the A two, two, nine, the crosses from Maidstone into Medway and the Medway Tunnel is a particular focus which I'll come on to. We know there's constraints around Gravesham and Dartford as well around some of the roads connecting there around Gally Hill

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in particular. So I'm very happy to give way. Just for the record, I'm completely opposed to the urban completely opposed to the urban sprawl. I think the government are trying to impose far too many houses on South Essex. That 100,000 houses on South Essex. That 100,000 is nearly 7% of their entire 1.5 million target in one half of one million target in one half of one county. But nevertheless, if you'll take if you'll believe that I'm being honest in arguing on behalf of my constituents, I'm prepared to

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of my constituents, I'm prepared to believe that he's being honest in arguing on behalf of his. Can I thank the hon. Member? And of course, housing targets were not unique to this government. They were existed in previous iterations throughout the last several decades. Indeed. So housing has been built in south Essex under his previous government and under conservative controlled councils. There, I'm sure permissions were given. And similarly in my area, the Medway Conservative led Council, as it was then delivered housing projects as well. So we we have to be realistic that infrastructure is needed to cater for these future developments, and this crossing is necessary because of the capacity issues have just been raised. It has. The impacts of a blocked crossing have profound implications not only to people trying to get to health appointments. Residents inconvenienced town centres blocked in the case of Dartford and Thurrock, but also on the freight and logistics industry so eloquently expressed by colleagues from around the country. Because the South East being the key link to European trade, I'm really also very proud that this department, led by the current Secretary of State on day one of taking office, sought to give the consent order for this programme, clearly showing the direction of travel and focus as a government to deliver some of these big infrastructure projects. And alongside Sizewell C and other government programs. We know that private investment working with governments can deliver on significant projects going forward. We know the cost around 10 billion is a is a government mega project scheme, and I would ask that this be considered to be on that government programme of mega projects. We know that with HS2, where there's been deliberation about whether mega, whether that has been a mega project or not, that that has caused some delays, especially around the the Euston development sites. And that was covered in the Nao report. I know tolls are a sensitive topic, and I would agree with my colleagues here that there needs to be some consideration for those that live in the direct surrounds, and not only Dartford and Thurrock, but also the new site around Gravesham and Medway and in particular on the other side in south Essex as well around whether they should be also considered for toll relief to

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ensure that they get their discount. Happy to give way. On that point, I'm grateful for my hon. Friend for giving way. Gravesham will bear one part of this, the length of the tunnel. And this, the length of the tunnel. And so it's important that those people that are most going to be affected that are most going to be affected will be able to hold to account those toll regulators, but also have have their accountability for have have their accountability for making sure that those tolls are properly cared for and enhanced for local residents.

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I absolutely agree, and I and I know there's been a number of thoughts today and a number of thoughts today and a number of points made to the Minister around what those tolls might look like. Of course, the duration of this programme, the finance that is programme, the finance that is involved, and also ensuring there's parity with the Dartford crossing to ensure that people are making a to ensure that people are making a market choice to go to a cheaper crossing will also have to be considered in the round, and I look considered in the round, and I look forward to representations in the future around that.

But I know from my residents perspective, whilst we can see the massive investment benefits of a new crossing in terms of new businesses opening, new residents, taking with the connections with H. S one that are potentially there as well through Essex, the actual creation of some form of corridor now between the Medway Towns and Southend. Previously we can overlook each other from the sides of the river. This connection now actually allows us potentially to get to one another's conurbations within 10 to 15 minutes, which previously would take 45 minutes to an hour.

I think that will the relationships between businesses and small businesses are not haven't been discussed today, but this has the potential to be a significant multiplier for a lot of different businesses across South Essex and North Kent. I also accept that this bill does protect those who will use the road. I accept that the the office for Rail and Road will become the independent regulator, and I understand that they need to be given robust powers around licence conditions. We know through HS2 that previous regulatory regimes have not been necessarily that efficient.

And I would ask the Minister learns from some of the Nao reports which have highlighted where some of these have failed in the past. The licence holder must share information with the regulator and the Secretary of State, and if the company behind the road get ever gets into financial trouble, a special administration regime should and must keep the highway running. Investors get the certainty that they. To commit the capital and drivers get a regulator watching over what is built and what is charged, because I believe that that transparency, given some of the high profile issues with major government programmes previously, I think is absolutely necessary.

There is practical measures in this bill, too. It allows barrierless charging on toll roads. Remote payments means smoother journeys. I can testify to that in many roads around the country. Less congestion at Dartford, though we do need to see continued improvements to the M2, including at junctions around the A 229 in particular, Bluebell Hill and I know Kent County Council have made that representation. And let me just turn to the recent amendments I. I agree it starts by recognising the urgent need to deliver the crossing.

After 14 years of numerous DCOs and numerous court appeals and delays and dither. But it's taken this government to progress ahead and get the spades in the ground. Yet when it asked the House to deny a Second Reading to that one piece of legislation that provides the funding routes, it questions whether the project can be delivered on time and on Budget, which is the exact thing which many of their own members have raised this afternoon. And I would point members to the structure of the bill, which puts the independent regulator in charge of scrutinising the costs, and I encourage them to pick up some of some of those issues at Bill Committee.

If they don't believe that there is a robust understanding. But to reject the bill on the basis of the reason amendment, I would say, would cause the delays that they are of themselves complaining might indeed occur. And just lastly, it would be remiss of me not to mention that there are other crossings nearby as well, which could get considerable amount of congestion as a result of this Medway tunnel, which is a key crossing within the Medway conurbation.

It's currently putting in a bid to the Structures Fund to ensure that it's 150,000 crossings per day that we see get support for increasing investment in the future. It was a it was a private construction through KCC and the Rochester Bridge Trust and Historic Anomaly that was transferred onto the council ownership some 15 years ago. And I would encourage Ministers to look at that bid very closely around Medway Tunnel, because any potential impact on the second crossing will be profoundly consequential to other crossings in Medway.

And if we weren't to get that DfT funding for improvements to Medway Tunnel, it could cause significant problems for the three MPs that represent those areas. So just lastly, this crossing has a long and chequered history. As has been said, previous conservative governments opened parts of it and Labour governments are now progressing with this next stage of it. But we should all be proud that this is a great British project which could deliver jobs and opportunities for many thousands of my residents, and also the knock on benefits to tens of thousands of people across the rest of the country.

Every delay to this legislation moves those dates back for families who have already waited for too long, for people who own homes and businesses who look to get this infrastructure project started. So I urge the House to reject this amendment put forward by the opposition, give the bill its Second Reading, and let us get on with building this crossing. Thank you.

16:02

Peter Dowd MP (Bootle, Labour)

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Yeah. >> Madam Deputy Speaker. First of all, can I make give my thanks to the Minister, the hon. Member for the Minister, the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Bromborough, for setting out in a very clear and unambiguous fashion the nature and the content of the 104 clauses and three schedules. And I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield and Rothwell, will be equally clear when he winds up later on. I'd also like to thank very belatedly, Winston Churchill, who in 1929 provided £2.5 million towards the first Mersey Tunnel crossing the Queensway crossing, which was opened by His Majesty King George the Fifth at the time.

Can I say that was 1929 and that was the last time the Tories did anything worthwhile for Merseyside. Frankly, if that £2.5 million. My hon. Friend the Member for Widnes and Halewood behind me is sitting behind me, is being used to the whole question about the development of a crossing, the crossing against the the crossing against the Mersey, on top of the two tunnel crossings, toll tunnels that we've had since the early 30s in 1971.

So there is a history of tunnel tolls, road tunnels, tunnels in this country. Many of them have been on Merseyside, the two under the Mersey Tunnel and two and two across the Mersey. And the question I wanted to ask myself is, what's wrong with that? What's wrong with a regulator and an organisation which is going to allow for the what's wrong with legislation that's going to allow for the Office of Road and Rail Regulator to be the independent regulator? What's wrong with that? What do the Tories have against that? What are the Tories have against providing a licence regime for construction operation of those proposals? What do they have with the problems with laying out a highway? Authority functions in relation to licence holders, or ensure fair charges for cars and transparency in service standards? What's wrong with that? I don't see there's anything wrong with that at all.

How about the ability and the capacity, as in the Bill, to provide transfer schemes for the allowance of property and rights and liabilities to liabilities to be transferred and the provision of a special administration regime? What's wrong? And backstops. The. I can't quite see what the Conservatives have got wrong with that. I referred to crossings. We. We also in Merseyside have crossing. My hon. Friend, who's now gone referred earlier on to the ferry. We have a ferry across the River Mersey which has been going since 1150 a long time.

It's actually King Stephen who was the monarch at the time during the. The anarchy, as it was called. We had 14 years of anarchy under the Tories, so they know all about that. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I don't want to take much time from of the House. What I do caution what I, what I do I I'm listening to the whips as well. I do pay clear and unambiguous attention to the to the whips. What I do want to ensure is that when projects are introduced, developed communities are part of that development.

My experience with the Highways Agency in relation to the. A 5036, for example, has not been as good as it could have been, so I hope when and if schemes are developed, whatever the nature of the scheme, toll or otherwise, those provisions in this Bill and those agencies which may have a part to play in it, do act with integrity, with honesty and passion. Because if they don't, members across this House will ensure that they do.

Thank you very much, Madam.

16:06

Greg Smith MP (Mid Buckinghamshire, Conservative)

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16:21

Simon Lightwood MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Transport) (Wakefield and Rothwell, Labour )

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16:32

Division

16:45

Adjournment: Detention of Jagtar Singh Johal

adjourn. Let's wait a few moments. The question is that this House do now adjourn. Douglas McAllister.

16:45

Douglas McAllister MP (West Dunbartonshire, Labour)

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17:07

Jas Athwal MP (Ilford South, Labour)

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National Jagtar Singh Johal back home. Earlier this month, after almost nine long years behind bars.

17:07

Douglas McAllister MP (West Dunbartonshire, Labour)

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Jaggi finally walked out of prison and into the arms of his loved ones.

17:07

Jas Athwal MP (Ilford South, Labour)

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and into the arms of his loved ones. After nearly a decade of anguish and uncertainty. His family could and uncertainty. His family could finally experience a moment of relief. It is frankly shameful that our great country has allowed a our great country has allowed a British national to languish in a foreign prison, reportedly to face torture in what the UN has confirmed is arbitrary detention. More shameful still that despite this long overdue breakthrough, Jaggi nightmare ordeal is far from over.

He may be out of jail, but he has had to surrender his passport. He remains trapped in India, thousands of miles from home, still faced with eight outstanding cases. Cases that nine years later still have yet to reach a conclusion or in some cases, even a start. Britain has failed jagtar, and quite frankly, India has too. India is a country which prides itself on being the world's largest democracy has dragged its feet for nearly a decade, failing to bring these cases to a conclusion within a reasonable time frame, trapping a British national on foreign soil for nine long years without conviction.

So I ask two questions. First to the Minister, and I appreciate other members have raised similar. What concrete diplomatic steps has the government taken, and what further action will they now take to secure Jakarta's safe return to the United Kingdom? Secondly, to this House, what does it say about Britain if we cannot secure the freedom of one of our own citizens after such a long time? Jaggi case is a matter of deep national humiliation.

His bail must spur urgent action to bring him home, not become another milestone that we merely welcome before turning to the next item on the UK India agenda, our trade deal. Thank you Warinder Juss.

17:09

Warinder Juss (Wolverhampton West, Labour)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to begin by paying tribute I want to begin by paying tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for West Dunbartonshire for his tireless work on behalf of Jagtar Singh Johal and his family. And I know this because I've had regular meetings with my hon. Friend about his constituent, and I want to thank him for his efforts and for the open and collaborative way he has always engaged with me. In my constituency of Wolverhampton West.

I have a Sikh population of some 15%, which is one of the highest in the country. But I've had Sikhs and Non-sikh constituents who have contacted me deeply concerned about Jaggi treatment and the way that his case has been handled, urging the government to do more for the just resolution of his case. I have previously raised Jakarta's case in the House. When I mentioned the United Nations Working Group's finding that his detention was arbitrary and his fair trial rights have been violated.

The allegations of torture and extraordinary delays in the proceedings remain deeply troubling. It appears that the rules of natural justice and the rule of law simply did not apply to Jaggi case. So I do warmly welcome Jaggi release on bail for him and his family, who had so many setbacks. This is an immensely important step, but the conditions of his bail are still unfair. His passport has been surrendered, his freedom remains severely restricted and he cannot come home to Scotland.

And he continues to face allegations that could result in the death penalty. His release from prison is certainly not the end of our efforts. Next month, it will be nine years since Jagtar was arrested on the streets of Punjab in India. But nine years later, there are still not been a single conviction against Georgetown. These are years that Jagtar and his family can never recover, let alone the suffering that they have endured during this period.

So I would urge the government now to use every diplomatic channel available at the highest level to secure a resolution of Jaggi case without any further delay, so that he can safely return back home. And I would be grateful if the Minister could please explain what steps are now being taken to achieve this. Madam Deputy Speaker, how many times have we heard in this House that justice delayed is justice denied for Jagtar Singh Johal? He has already had his justice delayed for far too long.

Yes.

17:12

Chris Elmore MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Bridgend, Labour)

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Thank you very much indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am grateful Madam Deputy Speaker. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for West Dunbartonshire for securing this important debate and for his this important debate and for his continued attention to the case and his support for Mr. Johar and indeed for his whole family. He has advocated relentlessly for Mr. Johal since he became the Member of Parliament for West Dunbartonshire in 2024. I would also like to thank all hon. Members who have intervened during today's debate and pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South and Wolverhampton West, who gave further contributions. I am grateful for all the thoughtful interventions, but most of all, Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to acknowledge Jack Tars family, including his wife and his brother. This case has been a matter of deep concern for successive governments for many years, and at the outset I want to recognise the immense toll that the long running case has taken on Mr. Johal and his family. Nearly nine years in detention without a resolution to his legal proceedings has been an extraordinarily difficult experience. And, as we have discussed today, Mr. Johal was released on bail on the 1st of October after almost nine years in pre-trial detention in India. This is a welcome development in the legal process and represents an important step forward in Mr. Johal case. After such a prolonged period of detention, and as the House knows, we have consistently raised our concerns about the length of pre-trial detention and other issues which I will come to shortly. Since his release, officials at the British High Commission in Delhi have met Mr. Johal on two occasions. They will continue to provide him with consular assistance while he remains on bail pending conclusion of his trial. Additionally, FCDO officials and our envoy have been mentioned by my hon. Friend for complex consular cases detentions. Alistair Burt, a former and highly respected member of this House, has maintained regular contact with the family here in the United Kingdom. I should be clear, of course, that Mr. Johal case is not over. While there have been progress in some elements, and we welcome the progress represented by the earlier acquittal in the state court, eight cases remain against him remain outstanding before the Indian courts. It is crucial that these proceedings are resolved as quickly as possible within India's independent legal system. I have already made this point, but it bears repeating the government has consistently raised concerns about Mr. Johal case with the government of India at every opportunity. Engagement has spanned successive governments and Ministers and has stressed our legitimate concerns regarding Mr. Johal prolonged pre-trial detention, his very serious allegations of torture and mistreatment, and his right to a fair trial. Most recently has been mentioned by my hon. Friend. The Foreign Secretary did raise Mr. John Hayes case with his Indian counterpart on the 24th of September, during the United Nations General Assembly in New York. This sustained engagement demonstrates the importance that the government continues to attach to this case and our commitment to seeking a prompt and full resolution to the outstanding cases against him. At every stage, we have emphasised the need for due process and for the legal cases to come to a resolution without delay. As I have emphasised, Mr. Johal release on bail does not mark the end of these prolonged proceedings. The government shares the view of Mr. John Hayes family and many hon. Members that the legal cases should now move forward without continued delays. India is a sovereign democracy with an independent judiciary. Mr. Johal legal proceedings are a matter for the Indian courts. We have made clear to the Government of India our interest in the legal petitions put forward by Mr. Johal defence team and our expectation that they are heard, and we continue to raise our interests and concerns with the Government of India at every appropriate opportunity. Pressing for a full and fair resolution through the courts, and this must include an investigation into his allegations of torture and mistreatment. I wanted to come to two points. Madam Deputy Speaker that have been raised by my hon. Friend and members across the House in relation to two important areas that I would like to cover. One is around the sustained campaign of Mr. Johal case. Can I assure the House, having seen the coordinated effort of Ministers and including many Prime Ministers, and I don't say that in jest. We've had a number of Prime Ministers in recent time. Madam Speaker, that's a matter of fact. But they go all the way back to former Prime Minister Boris Johnson and to, most recently, former Prime Minister Starmer and, of course, most recently by the Foreign Secretary. I would argue that there is a sustained and coordinated piece of work being undertaken by British Ministers, of successive governments of all colours, to secure a way forward for Mr. Johal. And then one other point that my hon. Friend rightly challenged me on as Minister responsible in this area is around the work of the UK India trade deal and was raised by a number of. My hon. Friends. Can I assure the House that any support or negotiation in relation to consular is not connected to our work in trade deals? We do continue to raise this case and we will continue to do so. Let me conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker, by reiterating that the government remains fully engaged on Mr. John Hayes case. His release on bail after nearly nine years in detention is an important and welcome moment for him and his family. However, significant legal proceedings remain outstanding. We will therefore continue to press, as I have said, the Government of India for a prompt, full and just resolution of Mr. John Hayes cases within India's independent legal system and we will continue to provide consular assistance. After nine painful years, Mr. Johal and his family deserve to see these long running legal proceedings move forward. The government will do everything it can to support that

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outcome. The question is that this House do now adjourn. As many as I have that opinion, say I. I the ayes

This debate has concluded

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