Commons Chamber

Monday 2nd February 2026

(began 9 hours, 3 minutes ago)

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None Portrait Q15. What steps he is taking to support armed forces families. (907602)
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Ayes to the left Minister. Mr.
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Keir Starmer Portrait Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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on our security and the cost of living. I made it a founding principle of this government that principle of this government that after years of isolationism, Britain would face outwards once Britain would face outwards once again. This was an 18 month strategy to rebuild our standing strategy to rebuild our standing and we have delivered. Strengthening our relationship with our world. First trade deal. Resetting our relationship with the EU, striking a groundbreaking FTA with India, and now thawing our

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ties with China to put this relationship on a more stable footing for the long term. Hear, hear.

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Hear, hear. Mr. speaker, China is the second biggest economy in the world, biggest economy in the world, including Hong Kong. It's our third biggest trading partner, supporting 370,000 British jobs. And it is an undeniable presence in global affairs. It would be impossible to safeguard our national interests without engaging with this geopolitical reality. Yet we inherited a policy from the previous government not of engagement with China, but hiding away and sticking their heads in the sand while our allies developed a more sophisticated approach.

They let the UK fall behind. We became an outlier of my three predecessors. None held a single meeting with President Xi for eight years. No British Prime Minister visited China. Eight years of missed opportunities. Meanwhile, Mr. Speaker, over that period, President Macron visited China three times. German leaders four times. The Canadian Prime Minister was there a few weeks ago. Chancellor Merkel and President Trump are both due to visit shortly. In this context, refusing to engage would be a dereliction.



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Order! Order! Just. Mr. Coogan, you will be withdrawing that remark. Withdraw. Withdraw it. Thank you. Can we come down? Because I'm sure you'll be wanting to catch my eye. And I would like to hear what you've got to say. So let's not Minister.

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Minister. Mr. speaker, in this context, refusing to engage would be a dereliction of duty, leaving British interests on the sideline. An incredibly, some in this House still advocate that approach. But, Mr. Speaker, leaders do not hide. Instead, we engage, and we do so on our own terms because, like our allies, we understand that engagement makes us stronger. Mr. speaker, protecting our national security is non-negotiable. We are clear eyed about the threats coming from China in that regard, and we will never waver in our efforts to keep the British people safe.

That is why we have given our security services the updated powers and tools that they need to tackle foreign espionage activity wherever they find it, and tackle malicious cyber activity as well. But the fact is, Mr. Speaker, we can do two things at once. We can protect ourselves whilst also finding ways to cooperate. And it was in that spirit that we made this visit. I had extensive discussions over many hours with President Xi, Premier Li and other senior leaders.

The discussions were positive and constructive. We covered the full range of issues, from strategic stability to trade and investment, opening a direct channel of communication to deliver in the national interest, enabling us to raise frank concerns about activities that impact our national security at the most senior levels of the Chinese system. We agreed to intensify dialogue on cyber issues, and we agreed a new partnership on climate and nature, providing much needed global leadership on this vital issue.

And Mr. Speaker, I raised a number of areas of difference which matter deeply to this country. I raised the case of Jimmy Lai and called for his release, making clear the strength of feeling in this House. Those discussions will continue, and my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is in touch with Mr. Lee's family to provide further briefing. I raised our human rights concerns in Xinjiang and Tibet. We discussed Taiwan, wider regional stability, Iran and the Middle East.

I called on China to end economic support for Russia's war effort, including companies providing dual use technologies, and I urge them to use their influence on Putin to push for the much needed ceasefire in Ukraine. And Mr. Speaker, I also raised the fact that members of this House have been sanctioned by the Chinese authorities. In response, the Chinese have now made it clear that all such restrictions on parliamentarians no longer apply. And I want to be clear, this was not the result of a trade.

Exactly. Yes, members will want to see more, I understand that, but that is precisely the point. Ignoring China for eight years achieved nothing. Nothing. This step is an early indication, not the sum total, of the kind of progress that this sort of engagement can achieve through leader to leader discussion on sensitive issues. To stand up for British interests. Mr. speaker, my visit was also about creating new opportunities for British businesses to deliver jobs and growth for the British people.

We took with us a brilliant delegation of nearly 60 businesses and cultural powerhouses, the very best of British, as an embodiment of what this country has to offer. If anyone's in doubt as to why this matters, I urge them to spend a few minutes with any one of those businesses. They will tell you about the incredible potential there, and the importance of getting out there and accessing the market. And we made significant progress paving the way to open the Chinese market for British exports, including our world leading services sector.

We secured a 30 day visa free travel for all Brits, including business travellers. We secured China's agreement to halve whisky tariffs from 10% to 5%. This is worth £250 million to the UK over the next five years. A significant win for our iconic whisky industry, particularly in Scotland and Mr Speaker. That lower tariff comes into force today. In total, we secured £2.3 billion in market access wins, including for financial services, £2.2 billion in export deals for British companies and hundreds of millions worth of new investments.

In addition, Mr. Speaker, we agreed to work together in some key areas of law enforcement. Last year, around 60% of all small boat engines used by smuggling gangs came from China. So we struck a border security pact to enable joint law enforcement action to disrupt that supply at source. We also agreed to scale up removals of those with no right to be in the United Kingdom, and to work together to crack down on the supply of synthetic opioids. We will continue to develop our work across all these areas.

Because, Mr. Speaker, this is the start of the process, not the end of it. My visit was not just about coming back with these agreements. It was about the wider question of setting this relationship on a better path, which allows us to deal with issues and seize opportunities in a way that the previous government failed to do. Finally, Mr. Speaker, let me say a word about my meetings in Tokyo. Japan remains one of our closest allies. Together, we are the leading economies in the CPTPP.

Partners in the G7, the G20 and the coalition of the willing, and they are the UK's largest inward investor outside the United States and Europe. So I had an extremely productive meeting with the Prime Minister as we set out our shared priorities to build an even deeper partnership in the years to come. That includes working together for peace and security, supporting Ukraine as we work for a just and lasting peace, and deepening our cooperation in cutting edge defence production, including through GCap.

We discussed how we can boost growth and economic resilience by developing our co-operation first in tech and innovation, where we are both leaders. Second, in energy, where Japan is a major investor in the UK and third, in trade, where we're working together to maintain the openness and stability that our businesses depend on. That includes expanding the CPTPP and deepening its co-operation with the EU. We will take all of this forward. Mr. speaker, when I welcome the Prime Minister to Chequers later this year.

So, Mr. Speaker, this is Britain back at the top table at last, facing outward, replacing incoherence and isolationism with pragmatic engagement, replacing naive posturing with the national interest in dangerous times. We're using our full strength and reach on the world stage to live a growth and security for the British people. And I commend this statement to the House.
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Kemi Badenoch Portrait Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch MP (North West Essex, Conservative)
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Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the Prime Minister for advance sight of his statement. But it is utterly reprehensible that he began it by accusing the previous government of isolationism. The same conservative government, the Business Secretary, is laughing. Just just that we'll tell him the same conservative government that led the world in our response to Pacific Pacific nations, including Japan. He asks I know about that. Of course Britain should engage with China. Even though the Chancellor wasn't allowed to go, even though they are an authoritarian state who seek to undermine our interests, even though they spy on us, sometimes within the walls of this building, even though they fund regimes around the world hostile to our country, they are a fact of life, a global power, and an economic reality.

So let me be clear. It is not the Prime Minister engaging with China that we take issue with. What we are criticising is his supine and short termist approach. I am sure the Prime Minister, I'm sure the Prime Minister means well, but his negotiating tactic has always been to give everything away in the hope that people will be nice to him in return. Before the Prime Minister even got on the plane, he'd already shown that he would do anything to demonstrate his good relationship with China.

But China uses every interaction to improve its own position. The Prime Minister looked like he enjoyed his trip. In fact, he looked like a dream come true for a man who was virtually a communist most of his virtually a communist most of his life. But apart from the. Mr Speaker, apart from the voodoo doll in his suitcase, and I hope he's checked it for bugs he has come back with next to nothing. We all want cheaper tariffs for Scottish whisky, but if the Prime Minister bothered to speak to the whisky industry like I did two weeks ago, he would know that what they really need is cheaper energy and lower taxes.

What else did he get? Visa free travel? China already offers this to other countries. It's not big enough for a prime ministerial visit. Yes, but the worst thing, Mr. Speaker, the worst thing was the Prime Minister claiming a glorious triumph with the lifting of sanctions on four conservative MPs, as if he'd done us a favour. Let me tell him those MPs were sanctioned because they stood up to China. Yes. They stood up against human rights abuses. They stood up against the countries spying on our MPs in a way that he wouldn't dare.

Those people don't want to go to China. The Chinese know that. They know that they are giving him something that costs absolutely nothing. Why can't the British Prime Minister see that? And I say to you, Mr. Speaker, and the whole House, like with the Chagos Islands, the Prime Minister has been played. China is about to build an enormous spy hub in the centre of London, a ransom he had to pay before he could even get on the plane. I would never allow Britain to be held over a barrel like that.

Yet again, the Prime Minister has negotiated our country into a weaker position in the world. His entire economic policy is to tax business more, regulate them harder, and make energy so expensive that we de-industrialized and then we can import Chinese wind turbines, Chinese solar panels, Chinese batteries for electric vehicles, all manufactured in a country that is building a coal fired power station every other week. Did he speak to them about that? What did his chief his trip achieve for Jimmy Lai? Nothing.

Did China promise to stop fuelling Putin's war machine in Ukraine? Doesn't sound like it. What did this trip achieve for the Uyghurs who are being enslaved? Absolutely nothing. Have China agreed to stop their relentless cyber attacks? Have they? We all know the answer to that. The reality is that China showed its strength and Britain was pushed around literally. Yes. It is no wonder, Mr. Speaker, that President Xi praised the Labour Party because the Conservatives stood up for Britain.

We don't get pushed around. Britain is a great trading nation. Of course we should engage with other countries, even hostile ones.

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Order, order Mr. Kyle, you said to me, when you go into China, how

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will you behave? Are you all be a bit. Thank you. You're not showing it today? Kemi Badenoch. Mr. speaker, I'm not worried

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Mr. speaker, I'm not worried about the business secretary. The entire business community thinks he's a joke and doesn't know what he's talking about. So, as I was saying, of course we should engage with other countries, even hostile with other countries, even hostile ones. But we need to do so with our eyes open and from a position of strength. And that requires a Prime Minister and a government that puts our national interest first.
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Keir Starmer Portrait Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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Prime Minister. understand her position. This is the Leader of the Opposition who said we should empty chair the most important NATO summit for years. Who wouldn't turn up to the G7? Who would rip up our valuable trade deals with the US, India and the EU? This is the Leader of the Opposition who characterised Greenland as a second order issue, then undermined the government's position on sovereignty. And when it comes to China, her policy is to stick her head in the sand, unable to influence anything in a volatile world.

That is not policy. That's an abdication of responsibility. No wonder her frontbench are leaving in droves. Mr. speaker, she talks of the embassy. China has had an embassy in the UK since 1877. Is currently spread across seven sites. The Leader of the Opposition is so busy trying to hold her party together she's clearly not read the letter. The security and intelligence services. But, Mr. Speaker, she claims great interest in the China Embassy. She was offered an invite for a Privy Council briefing on the issue.

What did she do? She chose not to attend. Mr. speaker, that is a dereliction of duty. It even worse. What did she do? She sent in her place the Member for Croydon South, the shadow home Secretary. That is a double dereliction of duty. Instead of taking up the Privy Council briefing, she took up a megaphone on the streets outside the embassy. I change my party from a party of protest to a party of power. She is rapidly going in the opposite direction.

And her her reply this afternoon seems to be that we should engage with China, but not engage with China. That what we should do instead of leader to leader discussions, where we raise all the opportunities and the difficult issues, each and every one of them, instead of those leader meeting leader to leader meetings should get a bag of sand and put her head in it and influence absolutely nothing. They're so unserious about world affairs.
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Ed Davey Portrait Rt Hon Ed Davey MP (Kingston and Surbiton, Liberal Democrat)
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Liberals, and offer our thoughts and prayers to his family and many friends. Jim devoted his life to friends. Jim devoted his life to public service, his Christian faith and the cause of liberalism. But Mr Speaker his judgement wasn't always impeccable. For it was Jim who gave impeccable. For it was Jim who gave me my first job in politics. We as opposed to last. We will miss him. Turning to the statement, can I Turning to the statement, can I thank the Prime Minister for advance sight of it? I listened to the conservative leader, whose position now seems to be to oppose trade with the world's biggest economies.

So much for global Britain, but with Mr. Speaker, with President Trump threatening tariffs again just because of the Prime Minister's trip with Vladimir Putin still murdering civilians in Ukraine, now more than ever, the United Kingdom must forge much closer alliances with nations who share our values, our belief in free trade and our commitment to our mutual defence. But China is none of those. The Prime Minister's main focus should be on the closest possible ties with our European neighbours, our Commonwealth allies and our friends like Japan and Korea.

So once again, he has made the wrong choice. However, unlike the Conservative Party, we think he was right to go and engage. But just like with President Trump, he approached President Xi from a position of weakness instead of position of strength, promising him a super embassy here in London in return for relatively meagre offers from China. He rightly raised the case of Jimmy Lai, who children fear for his health after five years held in captivity. So will the Prime Minister tell us what she said? To give him confidence that Mr.

Lai is now more likely to be released. Did he also challenge XI over the bounties on the heads of innocent Hongkongers here in the United Kingdom? All the revelations that China hacked the phones of number ten officials for years. In other words, did he stand up for Britain this time and yet again? Mr. speaker, the Prime Minister had to spend time on a foreign trip responding to revelations about the vile paedophile and sex trafficker Jimmy Epstein and his relationship with Lord Mandelson, the Prime Minister has rightly said that Mandelson should resign from the other place.

But since he hasn't. Will he back a simple piece of legislation to strip him of his peerage? Surely this House could pass it tomorrow.
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Keir Starmer Portrait Rt Hon Sir Keir Starmer MP, The Prime Minister (Holborn and St Pancras, Labour)
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Prime Minister. >> Prime Minister. >> Can I start by offering my deep condolences on behalf of the government in relation to Lord government in relation to Lord Wallace? He was a kind and decent man, and I know he'll be sorely missed. On the Liberal Democrat benches. And may he rest in peace. In relation to the approach to China, of course, we need to build stronger alliances with our key partners. And that's what we have been doing, particularly with the EU.

But he's wrong. It's not a choice between doing that and engaging with China. One can do both. And that is what we're doing. And I think it's more important. There are opportunities and sensitive and really important disagreements to have a meeting to discuss them, because the House is violently agreeing that there are issues that need to be discussed. The difference between us is we think that having a leader to lead a meeting, to discuss those issues is better than sticking your head in the sand if you really want to influence things.

So we can do both in relation to the points he raised. Yes, I did raise the case of Jimmy Lai and we've now spoken to his family about that discussion. Yes, I did raise the case of Hong Kong. I raised a number of human rights issues as I listed. The point was, by being in the room, having the debate 1 to 1 with the leader at leader level, it was possible to raise those issues. There is frankly no point standing in this house shouting and screaming about issues.

If you're not prepared to get in the room to discuss them, it gets you absolutely nowhere.
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None Portrait Ministerial statement: The release of files by the US Department of Justice
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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Madam Deputy Speaker, as I know, right honourable and hon. Members across the House will agree. across the House will agree. Jeffrey Epstein was a despicable criminal who committed disgusting crimes and destroyed the lives of countless women and girls. What he did is unforgivable. His victims must be our first priority. As the Prime Minister has said. Anybody with relevant information must come forward and co-operate with investigations so that Jeffrey Epstein's victims can get the justice they have been denied for too long.

Madam Deputy Speaker, On Friday, the Department of Justice in the United States released around 3 million pages from the case files relating to Jeffrey Epstein. It is increasingly clear that his awful crimes involved and were facilitated by many, often powerful people, both by actively participating in those crimes, but also by failing to hear those victims victims voices. By equating wealth with integrity, and by not using one's privileged position to speak out, even against a friend, it is incumbent upon those of us who hold ministerial office to behave in such a way that builds trust in politics and upholds the standards that voters rightly expect from us, contained within the release by the US Department of Justice were documents which highlighted the close nature of the relationship between Jeffrey Epstein and Peter Mandelson, including alleged financial transactions when Peter Mandelson was a Labour Member of Parliament and later Minister.

For the avoidance of doubt, this information was not known by the government until the release of documents by the Department of Justice on Friday. The nature of the documents also raised serious concerns about Peter Mandelson's behaviour, whilst a Minister, Peter Mandelson, must account for his actions and conduct. It is an understatement, Madam Deputy Speaker, to say that his decision to continue a close relationship with a convicted paedophile, including discussing private government business, falls far below the standards expected of any Minister.

His behaviour was unequivocally wrong and an insult to the women and girls who suffered no government Minister of any political party should have, nor ever should behave in this way. Madam Deputy Speaker, the Prime
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Justin Madders Portrait Justin Madders MP (Ellesmere Port and Bromborough, Labour)
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Minister has today asked the Cabinet Secretary to review all available information regarding Peter Mandelson's contact with Peter Mandelson's contact with Jeffrey Epstein during his period as a government Minister, and to report back to him as a matter of report back to him as a matter of urgency. As the House knows, Peter Mandelson is no longer a member of the Labour Party, having resigned his membership last night, and the House may wish to know that House may wish to know that disciplinary action was underway by the Labour Party prior to his resignation.

The Prime Minister believes, as does the government, that Peter Mandelson should not retain his membership of the House of Lords or use his title as the House already knows. The government does not have the power to remove peerages without legislation. However, the Prime Minister is calling on all political parties, including the Conservatives, as the largest party in the House of Lords, to work with the government to modernise the disciplinary procedures to allow for removal of peers who have bought the House of Lords into disrepute.

The government will today write to the appropriate authorities in the other place to start that process. It would be better, Madam Deputy Speaker, to update those procedures so that they apply to all members of the House of Lords instead of having to introduce complex hybrid bills for each individual peer who has brought the Other place into disrepute. Madam Deputy Speaker, I recognise the strength of feeling on all sides of the House, myself included, and the government will

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of course keep members up to date. I commend the statement to the House. I call the Shadow Chancellor of

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I call the Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. Yes. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. And I'd like to Deputy Speaker. And I'd like to thank the Minister for advance sight of his statement. The crimes of Jeffrey Epstein were truly of Jeffrey Epstein were truly terrible. Paedophilia, sex trafficking, child prostitution. It trafficking, child prostitution. It was an awful abuse of power. And it is, of course, a great embarrassment to our country that its most senior ambassador should have been caught up with a man like him.

In this latest set of releases from the US Department of Justice. It's clearer than ever that theirs was a relationship built not just on affection, but on the transfer of money from Epstein to Mandelson's family and the transfer of information from Mandelson to Epstein. In some cases, this was apparently market sensitive information that Mandelson only received by dint of being a member of the Labour government. So, of course, we welcome the belated announcement that there will be an investigation into Mandelson's conduct whilst he was a Minister.

But this should have happened long ago. And I say that because we know that in February last year, Gordon Brown, the former Prime Minister, wrote to the Cabinet secretary explicitly asking for an investigation into the veracity of information contained in the Epstein papers about the sale of assets arising from the banking collapse and communications about them between Lord Mandelson and Mr. Epstein. That investigation never happened. In any case, I'm afraid the investigation announced today alone will not do. It is not enough to consider Mandelson's historic conduct.

There also needs to be an investigation into his behaviour whilst he was our ambassador in Washington, given that he abused his previous position. It is entirely conceivable that he abused his most recent one. For example, I understand that on the 27th of February last year, Mandelson arranged for the Prime Minister to meet Palantir, a client of Mandelson's company Global Council. How many more such meetings were there? What other information was shared? We all have a right to know. Likewise, the government cannot hide from its responsibility in having made Mandelson its ambassador in the first place.

This was a political appointment. It happened only because of political pressure. And so one of two things must be true. Madam Deputy Speaker, either there was the most terrible failure of the vetting system, or the government chose to brush that vetting information away. And both are very serious. But the government must now be honest with us, about which it was, and it seems very unlikely that the government's vetting system broke down entirely. Indeed, on the 10th of September, the Prime Minister told the House that full due process was followed during this appointment.

Can it really be the case that this full due process did not pick up the extent of the relationship? On the 3rd of November, Olly Robbins, the then permanent secretary at the Foreign Office, told the committee back before Lord Mandelson was announced as the appointee, there was a process within the Cabinet Office to make sure that the Prime Minister was aware of Lord Mandelson and the issues around his appointment. We can confidently say that the relationship with Epstein was indeed surfaced, so the government knew that Mandelson had long maintained an unhealthy relationship with Epstein, and yet it continued with its appointment anyway.

So the question is, Madam Deputy Speaker, who in number ten knew what and when? The Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister has a duty to tell this House precisely what the Prime Minister knew when he made the appointment to disclose the documents that the Prime Minister saw. And if the Prime Minister genuinely did not know. Well, somebody must have done. Who was it? Was it his chief of staff, Morgan McSweeney, who was reported to have personally pushed the appointment? Was it the deputy Prime Minister who was then the Foreign Secretary, who would have been party to some of the information? It's just time for the government to be open and clear with us all.

Something went very badly wrong with this appointment, Madam Deputy Speaker. It has caused very great embarrassment to this country, and it is time that

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someone took responsibility. Yes. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The person that has to take responsibility for their failings is Peter Mandelson. The Shadow is Peter Mandelson. The Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster knows because the process for political appointments, whether for political appointments, whether to ambassadorships or otherwise, was one that was set up under the previous conservative government. It was a process that we inherited and have since updated. The Prime Minister has been very clear that the declarations of interest that were put forward by Peter Mandelson were not wholly truthful.

When it became clear from the release of information that that had not been the case, the Prime Minister moved swiftly to remove Peter Mandelson as the ambassador to the United States. On the first point that the Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster made in relation to an investigation requested by a former Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, I can confirm to the House that his statement was incorrect. Former Prime Minister did ask the Cabinet Secretary to investigate, to look for any particular documents that related, as he said, to the sale of RBS assets to JP Morgan.

That investigation was undertaken. The Cabinet secretary did respond to the former Prime Minister to confirm that no documents in relation to these questions were held by the government. Evidently, now that more documents have become available to the public and to the government, further investigations

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are now taking place. Emily Thornberry. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. These files seem to Deputy Speaker. These files seem to show that Peter Mandelson was given £50,000 by a notorious paedophile, £50,000 by a notorious paedophile, and a few years later he sent on market sensitive information to market sensitive information to Epstein, who worked for JP Morgan about market bailouts. The Prime about market bailouts. The Prime Minister's resignation telling them that they should mildly threaten the Chancellor of the Exchequer and then told him about matters of national security.

Surely this is not a matter of whether Peter Mandelson be in the House of Lords. This is a matter of whether the police should be involved.
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Christine Jardine Portrait Christine Jardine MP (Edinburgh West, Liberal Democrat)
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Liberal Democrat spokesperson

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Max Wilkinson. Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker. The Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister and Secretary to the Prime Minister and the shadow CDL are right. We must start by remembering the many women and young girls who experienced and young girls who experienced unimaginable horrors at the hands of a network of the network of Epstein. We must also ask, Madam Deputy Speaker, what it was that first attracted the politician Peter Mandelson to the billionaire Peter Mandelson to the billionaire financier Jeffrey Epstein, and why was it that that relationship continued after Epstein's character was well known? At the very least, the forwarding of confidential government correspondence to a wealthy and powerful individual was clearly well beneath the conduct expected of a Cabinet Minister and possibly a breach of the law.

When that is combined with the reported financial flows, the evidence is damning. The use of public office for private gain is the very definition of corruption. Regardless of the outcome of a government investigation, millions of people up and down this country are more than capable of judging for themselves on the evidence in front of them. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, I ask the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister. Isn't it time to end the Lord Mandelson charade once and for all, by bringing legislation to this House to strip him of his peerage? And what about his membership of the Privy Council to the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister referenced declarations of interest.

So will the government work with House authorities to republish Peter Mandelson's register of interests, dating back to his time as a Cabinet Minister in a Labour government?

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Thank you, and can I welcome the hon. Member to his post on the hon. Member to his post on the Liberal Democrats frontbench? The hon. Member is right that it is time for the procedures in time for the procedures in Parliament to be updated. This House has taken steps in recent House has taken steps in recent years to do that. The other place has not. And as I said in my statement to the House, the statement to the House, the government is making an offer today to the other place and to the appropriate authorities in the House of Lords to put forward proposals to do just that, and if we need to make time available to

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do so, we will. Clive Efford Deputy Speaker. I think the key. Question here

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I think the key. Question here is, is who advised. The Prime Minister? I don't expect the Prime Minister to do due diligence on Minister to do due diligence on appointments of this kind himself, but those around him must have done. And it does appear that there were And it does appear that there were questions that needed to be asked of Lord Mandelson that weren't asked, or if they were asked, that asked, or if they were asked, that the answers were not passed on.

So when this is investigated, can my friend give us a guarantee that those around the Prime Minister who would have advised him on this appointment will be investigated

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fully? At the appointment for political process or for political appointments? Has since been strengthened by this government to strengthened by this government to include additional interviews and processes for declarations of interest. The key thing, though, interest. The key thing, though, Madam Deputy Speaker, is when someone lies in their declarations of interest, there must be a consequence, and the consequence in respect to members of the other place needs to be removal from the House of Lords and loss of your peerage.

That can only happen if the Other place bring forward proposals to update their own processes, which the government stands ready to support them in doing so. But I agree with my hon. Friend that there needs to be robust, clear, transparent processes and where there are conflicts of interest for those to be surfaced and dealt with adequately. And then when people are found to have lied, there must

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be some consequence. Chair of the Select Committee, Simon Hoare. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

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Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is right to say that the Other place must modernise its disciplinary procedures, but that kicks the Mandelson can down the kicks the Mandelson can down the road. This is not the first time this modern day Icarus has flown a this modern day Icarus has flown a little bit too close to the sun, usually over money. We all remember the Geoffrey Robinson mortgage loan, which of course occasioned an earlier resignation, and the Hinduja passport.

Where I disagree with the Minister is that you should conflate the updating of the disciplinary procedures of the Other place and bringing forward legislation which is allowed to remove mandelson's peerage. I am absolutely certain that were the government to bring forward a Bill, it needn't be complex and hybrid, as he suggested. It could be rushed through this House in a day such as the appetite to make the point.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Madam Deputy Speaker, for the sake of clarity, can I just make it sake of clarity, can I just make it clear that neither I nor the government are here to defend Peter Mandelson? We are here to defend Mandelson? We are here to defend the integrity of this House and the Other place, and to ensure that processes where they need updating processes where they need updating are updated. On the question of legislation for individual members of the Other place, the fact, I of the Other place, the fact, I might say, Madam Deputy Speaker, is there's a queue.

That's why the process needs to be updated to apply to all peers in the House of Lords, as opposed to the need to bring individual legislation, whether it's for Peter Mandelson or Michelle Mone.
17:14
Darren Jones Portrait Rt Hon Darren Jones MP, Minister of State (Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister) (Bristol North West, Labour)
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Tulip Siddiq Madam Deputy Speaker like the Chief Secretary. I Speaker like the Chief Secretary. I am a parent of young children, and I know the Chief Secretary would have found it very difficult to have found it very difficult to stomach some of the details that came out over the weekend, and rightfully so far. The conversation here has been dominated about the actions of the men. But could I seriously ask the Chief Secretary what is he doing to ensure that the victims, mostly children of sexual violence and sexual assault, is

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going to be heard by those in power, including the Prime Minister? I thank my hon. Friend for her

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I thank my hon. Friend for her question, and I'm sure there isn't one member of this House that doesn't agree with her about the doesn't agree with her about the levels of disgust that we feel in seeing the disclosures from the Epstein files. The House knows that Epstein files. The House knows that the government is taking forward radical proposals for tackling violence against women and girls, and in respect of Jeffrey Epstein is doing all that we can to ensure that people who do have information

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make it available to investigators. So Christopher Chope. Madam Deputy Speaker, does the

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Madam Deputy Speaker, does the Minister think that the deep involvement of Mandelson with involvement of Mandelson with Epstein shows that Epstein's victims were not only women and girls, but may also have included

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young men? It wouldn't be appropriate for

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It wouldn't be appropriate for me to entertain that hypothetical question at the Dispatch Box. Madam Deputy Speaker, we obviously hope that that is not the case. But as I say, I am not here to speak for Peter Mandelson.
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Rachel Hopkins Portrait Rachel Hopkins MP (Luton South and South Bedfordshire, Labour)
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Andy McDonald. >> Is a disaster. >> And against the backdrop of the incredible abuse of young women for incredible abuse of young women for such a long time, it just fills the house with horror. But I must agree with the hon. Member from North Dorset. This House would be minded to bring legislation and quickly. But can I ask my right hon. Friend, it would appear that Gordon Brown was very concerned. In September of 2025 that there had been disclosure of information by Mandelson to Epstein that may have been used for commercial gain.

He turns out to be right. So how is it that that error could occur within government? That information wasn't known. Can you assure the House that those matters will be given full attention in any inquiry, and that from this day on, full engagement we had with the criminal authorities? Because as many people have said in this place already, the time has come for

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criminal prosecution. Yes. My hon. Friend is right to raise

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My hon. Friend is right to raise the concerns in the way he has. As I confirm to the Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, the of the Duchy of Lancaster, the Cabinet Secretary did respond to Gordon Brown's request to search for documents in the government for documents in the government archive in relation to the sale of Rbs's assets to JP Morgan. At that time, the review of documents at time, the review of documents at the time concluded that those documents did not exist in the government archive.

It is now evident from the release of documents from the US Department of Justice that the emails that we have all seen account for what took place at the time, and that's why the Cabinet Secretary now has reviewing the archive again, not just in respect of that particular question, but in the round during the time that Peter Mandelson was a Labour Minister, and he'll be reporting to the Prime Minister as soon as he's been able to do that.

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Mr Speaker in cash for questions. All the recent sexual. Harassment cases. At Westminster, the police were called. They were called called. They were called proactively by the government. Why is the government in this case conducting an inquiry without informing the Met Police? And if they're not, will they get on with

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it straight away because it's inevitably going to happen here. As I have told the House, the Cabinet secretary is currently Cabinet secretary is currently looking at the government archives to see what documents are available and will advise the Prime Minister accordingly. If the government can

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be of assistance to any investigations in due course. Of course it will do so. Justin Madders.

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Justin Madders. Thank you. Mr. Speaker. There are many aspects of this which are hugely troubling, and I just want to focus troubling, and I just want to focus on one, which is the passing on by a serving Cabinet Minister to third parties of highly sensitive parties of highly sensitive information. Clearly, that's something that could amount to misconduct in public office. And I hope that the police do investigate hope that the police do investigate that. But it does reveal these papers, doesn't it? A very casual relationship with probity for Mandelson and his apparent willingness to share highly sensitive information with third parties.

Now, what concerns me in particular is, of course, that he has been in a very senior role in recent times. I wonder if the Chief Secretary could confirm whether he or anyone else serving in government, in a ministerial or advisory capacity, has discussed in recent times. In the course of this government, information of a similar nature that could have been

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used to benefit third parties. The information that became available over the preceding few days from the US Department of

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days from the US Department of Justice is new information to the government. Christine Jardine. Thank you very much, Madam.

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Thank you very much, Madam. Deputy Speaker. Can I. Echo the remarks that have been made in this House this evening about the fact that it might be time for criminal proceedings to take place in this? I also think it is important when the government is important when the government has made such a totem of tackling violence against women and girls, that they are seen to stand up for women and girls in this and encourage everyone who has been mentioned in this to cooperate with the American authorities and give any information that they have to the inquiries in the United States.
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17:54
Seema Malhotra Portrait Seema Malhotra MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Feltham and Heston, Labour )
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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I am delighted that the I am delighted that the biodiversity. Has returned to this House for consideration of Lords amendments. I thank members of both houses for their careful scrutiny and for the constructive and collaborative approach that has taken place throughout the Bill's passage. I also place on record my thanks to Baroness Chapman of Darlington for leading the bill expertly through the other place. In today's debate, we will seek to address the amendments that were made by the government there, and I also thank all of those in the other place who have been involved in debates on this bill.

Before I speak to the amendments, I want to remind the House that the passage of this bill is a vital part of delivering the UK's international obligations under the BBNJ agreement. It will strengthen the global framework for protecting biodiversity in areas of the ocean beyond national jurisdiction, improve how we manage environmental impacts in these areas, and help ensure that the benefits arising from marine genetic resources are shared fairly. I am pleased to inform the House that as of the 17th of January, the BBNJ agreement has now entered into force following Royal Assent of this Bill and subsequent secondary legislation which will be passed in the coming months.

The UK will ratify the agreement and intends to play a leading role at the first conference of the parties, which will take place at some point before the 16th of January, 2027. Turning to the amendments from the other place, today, the House is asked to consider a package of 12 amendments, all of which were put forward by the government. These amendments relate to devolution and are designed to support effective implementation of the BBNJ agreement across the whole of the United Kingdom, while respecting the devolution settlements and ensuring that devolved Ministers are appropriately engaged where devolved competence is affected.

I'm very happy to give way.

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Can I thank the Minister for what the Minister is putting forward? I know that part two of the bill contains a specific the bill contains a specific exception for fishing, and that the new regulations do not apply to the use of a UK craft for fishing if it use of a UK craft for fishing if it is done under a valid licence under the Fisheries Act 2020. I've been contacted by some of the organisations back home in Northern Ireland, and so does the Minister agree that it's essential that the devolved administrations enshrine devolved administrations enshrine this, and acknowledging that the fishing industry is reliant on the ability to continue to fish in all current areas.

And in other words. Madam Deputy Speaker, it's important that the administration, the Northern Ireland Assembly in particular, does what this bill says, because if it doesn't do that, then the Northern Ireland Fishing Organisation will find themselves at a disadvantage. Thank you.

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I thank the hon. Member for his question is indeed important that question is indeed important that that all our devolved administrations, as well as the UK administrations, as well as the UK government are abiding by the the agreement and I thank him for his agreement and I thank him for his interest and his engagement in this important in this important bill. I important in this important bill. I am really grateful as well to those to all of those who we have been engaging with through the passage of this bill and working with closely with Ministers and officials in the devolved government.

We agreed at the introduction of the bill that legislative consent motion, that the legislative that that the legislative legislative consent motion process is engaged for Scotland and Northern Ireland, to varying extents by part two, three and four of the Bill. The government has been in sustained discussions with both of these devolved governments to seek consent for the Bill, and I can confirm to the House that motions on consent have been passed by the Scottish Parliament and and the Northern Ireland Assembly.

Lords amendments one and four provide Scottish Ministers and Northern Ireland Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs with concurrent powers to make regulations within devolved competence, corresponding to the powers to make provision granted to the Secretary of State under clause nine and clause 11 of the Bill. Amendments two and five provide the procedure for those powers.

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As one understands that the BBNJ is dealing with matters primarily is dealing with matters primarily in international waters and, of course, devolved institutions have course, devolved institutions have no say in those matters so as to broaden an understanding of the broaden an understanding of the bill. What type of regulations is it anticipated that daera, the local Stormont department, would be making in consequence of this bill?

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I thank the hon. Member and what I what I will say is that following I what I will say is that following the ratification of of the agreement that we will be agreement that we will be participating in the future discussions in relation to the implementation of the agreement, implementation of the agreement, and there will continue to be further conversations. I think the further conversations. I think the important point I do want to make, and I think this is relevant for the work we've been doing with Scotland, with Wales and with Northern Ireland, is that it does reflect how our UK government officials and devolved officials are already working together effectively in practice, and including in relation to consultation and effective delivery.

And I know that these will be conversations that that do continue. If I can continue with my remarks. Madam Deputy Speaker, in relation to amendments three and six, these place a duty on the Secretary of State to consult Scottish Ministers and the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs in Northern Ireland before exercising powers in clauses nine and 11, where regulations engaged devolved matters. This duty does not apply where the Secretary of State considers that regulations need to be made urgently for the purposes of implementing emergency measures adopted under article 24, one of the BBNJ agreement.

This approach ensures that devolved governments are engaged in advance of regulations being made, enables them to make their own provision on devolved aspects where they wish to do so, and reflects their responsibilities while supporting timely and effective implementation

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of the agreement. Lords amendment seven I will give way. Jim Shannon speaker, the reason why I'm asking these questions by the fishing organisations back home. I want to put them on the record and I wish to just very quickly, and I wish to just very quickly, the bill enables the creation of internationally agreed MPAs in the high seas. If a Northern Ireland high seas. If a Northern Ireland vessel operates in international waters, it may face new restrictions on where it can fish to protect vulnerable habitats and species like sharks and whales.

It does the Minister not agree that we need to ensure that MPAs are not created without the fishing industry sectors? After the fishing organisations, the the fish producers, and that their opinions carry weight and not simply just a

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checkbox exercise. I just want to put it on record, please, if you don't mind. Thank you. I thank the hon. Member and

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I thank the hon. Member and indeed he he does continue to put on the record his concerns and and on the record his concerns and and he will know that as we move forward following ratification, there will be detailed there will be detailed conversations we will continue to have. And it is important that that have. And it is important that that the rules and regulations in as we move forward will also be clear for, for all to be operating, all to be operating by.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I was just referencing our approach and how we've been moving forward on the on the bill and to ensure that devolved governments are engaged in advance of regulations being made, and that does enable them to be able to make their own provision on devolved aspects where they may wish to do so. And we continue to to work closely together to support timely and effective implementation of the agreement. Lords amendment seven inserts a new clause after clause 17 that makes changes to the Marine Works.

Environmental Impact Assessment Scotland Regulations 2017 to ensure that the UK meets its obligations under the BBNJ agreement in relation to the Scottish Marine Licensable activities in areas beyond national jurisdiction, the UK government will be amending its own Environmental Impact Assessment regulations, and Scottish Government officials have worked closely with UK counterparts to draft corresponding provisions. Accordingly, amendments eight and nine also limit the power in clause 18 to only implementing article 38 standards or guidelines, as a wider power is no longer required in light of other changes that will be made directly through the Bill.

Lords amendments ten and 11 ensure that under clause 22, which sets out procedures for the making of regulations under the act, does not apply to regulations made under clauses introduced by Lords Amendments one and four. Instead, the procedures set out in Government Amendments two and five, respectively apply. Finally, Lords Amendment 12 amends clause 25 so that the clause introduced by amendment seven comes into force on such a day as the Secretary of State appoints by regulations rather than upon royal assent.

This change ensures a consistent approach across the Bill with regards to the Environmental Impact Assessment regulations that are being amended. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, the government's objective is to implement the BBNJ agreement effectively across the whole of the United Kingdom, and to do so in a way that respects the devolution settlement and supports continued constructive collaboration with devolved governments. I therefore commend these 12 Lords amendments to the House, and I urge members to

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support them. I beg to move. Yes. The question is that this House

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agrees with the Lords and Amendment one. I call the Shadow Minister. Yes.

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Yes. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. We on this side of the House recognise the importance the House recognise the importance of the biodiversity beyond National Jurisdiction Bill and the shared international ambition to protect international ambition to protect the world's oceans and marine ecosystems. The opposition supports the principle of effective global cooperation in this area, and we want this legislation to succeed. However, it is precisely because of the bill's significance, its reach across devolved administrations and its potential financial and regulatory consequences, that it demands the highest standards of scrutiny and clarity.

It is in that constructive spirit that I wish to raise a number of questions for the
18:06
Andrew Snowden Portrait Mr Andrew Snowden MP (Fylde, Conservative)
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Minister today. I hope in the same constructive spirit, she seeks to answer them fully. We know that the answer them fully. We know that the government tabled quite a number of amendments to the Bill at Report stage in the House of Lords. Those stage in the House of Lords. Those amendments are before us today. I must say it is rather disappointing that the government needed to do that the government needed to do this at such a late stage in the Bill's passage. And as my noble friend Lord Callanan said in the other place, tabling amendments at such a late stage was not conducive to the best Lords scrutiny.

Does the Minister accept that the work with the devolved administrations, which led to the tabling of these amendments, should have taken place earlier? And are lessons going to be learned for future legislation on the new clauses, on the clauses consultation with Scotland and Northern Ireland to be inserted after clauses nine and 12, can the Minister confirm that this definitely does not stray into legislative consent territory? Can the Minister also set out what would happen if Scottish or Northern Irish Ministers do not approve of measures during the consultation process regarding the new clause to be inserted after clause 12 relating to the new regulation making power, what would happen if, say, the Scottish Government decided to take a divergent path or set up a system that puts itself at odds with the UK government position? Is there a risk to the operability of the system here? Madam Deputy Speaker, the government's own impact assessment found that this bill will generate compliance costs for those involved in the collection and utilisation of marine genetic resources and related digital sequence information.

What steps are the government taking to ensure that these costs are not prohibitive to the very research we are hoping to promote through the bill? While there are still many unanswered questions about enforcement, it is hard to see how the compliance, licensing and enforcement will be cheap. What level of resource is going to be put in to enforcing the regime? A ways and means resolution is required for this bill precisely because it will lead to costs to the public purse. So what assessment has the government made of the value for money in this respect? And what is the cost benefit ratio? The final stage impact assessment also makes reference to potential future costs.

If emergency legislation is needed to respond to any further decisions by the Convention of Biological Diversity, can the Minister clarify the parameters here, what it is they are anticipating? How much money do they assess might be involved, and are they planning to ensure the risk of unintended consequences is mitigated? Finally, it would be impossible not to mention the tension between the government's ambitions with this bill and its surrender of the Chagos Islands, which may well see the dismantling of an exemplar marine protected area, can.

She knows exactly what undertaking Mauritius has given to the MPA any red lines. The government has clearly set out, and precisely what continuing role Britain will play in MPA management per terms of the treaty. For example, has the government had any discussions about preventing damaging Chinese trawler boats from accessing the MPA? Madam Deputy Speaker, we all share the objective of protecting our oceans and safeguarding biodiversity beyond national jurisdiction. Indeed, that is why it was a conservative government that first signed up to the Biodiversity Beyond National Jurisdiction agreement.

But good intentions on their own are not enough. This House is entitled to clear answers on scrutiny, devolution, operability, cost enforcement and value for money, as well as honesty about how this bill sits alongside the government's wider actions on marine protection in the British Overseas Territories. Until Ministers can provide that clarity and reassurance, there remains a real risk that a bill designed to lead internationally will instead create uncertainty at home. I urge the Minister to fully respond to the questions raised today, so that the House can be confident that this legislation is workable, proportionate and worthy of the ambitions the government has for it.



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Yes. Chair of the Select Committee, Toby Perkins. Thank you very much indeed.

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Thank you very much indeed. Madam Deputy Speaker, I warmly welcome this bill, the introduction of which had the happy coincidence of fulfilling one of the government's commitments and satisfying one of the Environmental satisfying one of the Environmental Audit Committee recommendations. At the same time, this landmark legislation will lay the groundwork legislation will lay the groundwork for protecting the marine environment and the wildlife that inhabit it, which lie beyond the control of individual nations. As the government's National Security
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Toby Perkins Portrait Mr Toby Perkins MP (Chesterfield, Labour)
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Assessment on Global Biodiversity Loss, published last week, set out in stark terms, natural ecosystems in stark terms, natural ecosystems such as the ocean and the Amazon rainforest are at risk of collapsing. The resulting crop collapsing. The resulting crop failures, intensified natural disasters and conflict and political instability, a highly likely, the report said, to threaten UK national security and threaten UK national security and prosperity, it is vital that the UK take leadership on the international stage to tackle global biodiversity loss and climate change.

I welcome this government's commitment to multilateral cooperation on ocean governance, and I look forward to this Bill receiving Royal assent, enabling the UK to ratify the BBNJ agreement. It's absolutely true to say that the initial indication of the government supporting this agreement was made by the previous government, and it was disappointing that over the 18 months or so after that commitment was made that we never actually got the legislation back here. And so I welcome the fact that this government has taken forward this important measure.

The UK also makes an important contribution to global efforts to halt environmental decline through its international funding for climate finance, one third of which is earmarked for nature based solutions to climate change. However, to date there has been limited indication of the government's next steps regarding the next five year Budget, due to commence in April, and the government has also failed so far to invest in tropical forests forever for facility and leverage further private finance into that innovative fund, protecting forests in perpetuity.

So whilst the Minister has rightly championed our contribution to this impressive act of international cooperation, does she agree that we have more to do to ensure that we retain the UK's hard earned reputation as a global leader in the field of international climate action? Can the Minister confirm that the UK will continue to contribute to protecting and restoring global ecosystems by maintaining its international funding for climate, including for nature projects, in the next round of funding? So in summary, Madam Deputy Speaker, I welcome this important legislation that this government has acted on, where previous governments merely talked about it and look forward to them to continuing in this positive

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direction. On the other areas I referred to. Here, here, here, here, here. I call Liberal Democrat

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I call Liberal Democrat spokesperson Roz Savage. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Liberal Democrats strongly The Liberal Democrats strongly welcome this bill and it's wonderful to hear the support for it from across this House. The it from across this House. The Global Oceans Treaty is one of the most significant environmental agreements of our time. It is agreements of our time. It is currently the world's only viable pathway to meeting the global 30 by 30 target to protect at least 30% of the world's oceans by 2030.

And the scale of that challenge is monumental. Right now, less than 1% of the high seas is fully protected. That's less than one penny in the pound of the global ocean. And this is the gap that this treaty begins to close. The ocean underpins
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Roz Savage Portrait Dr Roz Savage MP (South Cotswolds, Liberal Democrat)
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everything. It feeds billions of people, absorbs around a quarter of global carbon emissions, regulates global carbon emissions, regulates our weather and supports livelihoods across the world. Yet it's under extraordinary and it's under extraordinary and growing pressure from overfishing, plastic pollution and climate plastic pollution and climate change. I've seen those pressures firsthand. Rowing solo across three oceans, I saw both the beauty of oceans, I saw both the beauty of the high seas and the damage that we're doing to them out there beyond national borders.

It can also feel beyond human laws. But this treaty is about bringing rules, responsibility and stewardship to those waters and also discharges one of the commitments made by this government to me during the discussions around my private member's bill, the Climate and Nature Bill, and for that I thank them. Well, we as Liberal Democrats welcome the Bill. We do regret the delay. The UK helped to negotiate this agreement, and it would have been fitting if we'd been among the first to ratify, rather than trailing behind.

I want to thank the campaigners who've kept up the pressure, and colleagues from across my party have long championed ocean protection, including the hon. Member for Bath, who's consistently made the case for stronger high seas governance,

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as has the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire. I will give way. I thank you. For giving way. I, like her,

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For giving way. I, like her, have spent quite a lot of time on the ocean. Not not rowing but the ocean. Not not rowing but sailing. And when one sails across the oceans in small boats, one the oceans in small boats, one can't help but see seas of plastic, whether left by fishermen or just thrown overboard, carried on thrown overboard, carried on currents. Did she feel that this treaty goes far enough to tackle the scourge of plastic pollution in

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our oceans? I thank my honourable and gallant colleague for his gallant colleague for his intervention. This treaty does not yet go far enough on plastic pollution, and I hope that the pollution, and I hope that the countries of the world will bring their best endeavours to achieve an their best endeavours to achieve an international agreement on plastic pollution. Sadly, so far, those negotiations have not succeeded. I'd also like to take this opportunity to recognise the serious, constructive work of our Liberal Democrat peers.

They chose not to delay ratification, but they did work hard to strengthen the bill. Lord Teverson pressed Ministers on enforcement gaps, flags of convenience, illegal fishing and human rights at sea, reminding us that the high seas cannot be a legal vacuum for either nature or people. And Baroness Miller of Chilthorne, Domer, pushed strongly on plastic pollution, especially plastic pellets that now turn up throughout the marine food chain. These issues have not gone away and they now form the implementation agenda.

As Lord Teverson observed during the Lords debates, this may be one of the last major environmental agreements that we see from the United Nations for some time. Given this era when respect for international law appears to be under strain in a way that we haven't seen for many decades now, that makes this treaty not just important, but precious. We are under a moral and existential obligation to make it work. So this ratification must be the start, not the finish.

If the UK wants to lead, the government should aim to arrive at the first conference of the parties with a clear plan for implementation, which I would like to suggest to the Minister, should include the publication of a proper implementation roadmap with timelines, responsibilities and funding. So delivery does not drift. We should back our world leading scientific institutions such as the National Oceanography Centre, the British Antarctic Survey and the centre for environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science. They should be fully supported to provide the evidence, training and technology transfer on which this treaty depends.

We should strengthen enforcement using our satellite monitoring capability and our experience monitoring vast protected areas in the overseas territories. And as a priority, we should get our own maritime house in order. We cannot in good conscience call for protection overseas while allowing destructive practices like bottom trawling. Our own MPAs credibility must start at home, and at a time when multilateral cooperation often feels fragile. This treaty shows what is still possible when countries work together to protect the global commons.

Global. Sorry, the Liberal Democrats will support this bill, but future generations will not judge us on whether we ratified a treaty. They will judge us on whether the oceans are healthier because we did something. So let's match warm words with hard action and show that Britain still leads when it matters not just signing agreements, but protecting the blue parts of our planet which give us food to eat and oxygen to breathe. To quote Sir David Attenborough, who turns 100 this coming May, if we save our sea, we Champion.



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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, as chair of Appgs for the ocean, I am delighted to see the Bill's am delighted to see the Bill's swift passage through Parliament, and I look forward to its full ratification. But I have got some ratification. But I have got some specific points from the Minister. Can the Minister outline the timeline for the next steps to timeline for the next steps to ensure ratification? Specifically, will it happen ahead of the first ocean COP expected later this year? ocean COP expected later this year? If the Minister is unable to detail today, would she be willing to meet with the APPG for the ocean to discuss the timeline, particularly given that we are now five years away from our 30 by 30 commitment? Turning to the amendments laid in the other place, I note that the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, put
18:21
Sarah Champion Portrait Sarah Champion MP (Rotherham, Labour)
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forward an amendment that would have ensured that the polluter pays and precautionary principles, and precautionary principles, alongside other principles in the Environment Act 2021, must be Environment Act 2021, must be applied by UK authorities when they exercise powers or duties relating to the high seas under this bill, to the high seas under this bill, as the amendment did not pass, there are concerns across the ocean sector that there is no statutory sector that there is no statutory requirement in the Bill itself to extend these environmental principles beyond the UK's territorial or domestic jurisdiction.

I wonder if the Minister is able to comment on that. Can the Minister offer assurances that when representatives of the government or public authorities act under this bill in relation to the high seas, they will apply the UK's existing environmental

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principles so that we do have that coverage. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Mr.

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Mr. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and may I also Deputy Speaker, and may I also thank hon. Members for for their thank hon. Members for for their contributions. If I could make a couple of comments in relation to couple of comments in relation to the matters raised about the timing of the amendments. In the other place, I think firstly, to mention that discussions were continuing to be ongoing with with our devolved governments as well, about how we would be moving forward on the bill
18:23
Seema Malhotra Portrait Seema Malhotra MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office) (Feltham and Heston, Labour )
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together. And it is important to recognise the respect for devolution settlements and adherence also to principles underpinning the Sewel convention that are the core aims of this that are the core aims of this government and how we're working. And so I referenced the way in And so I referenced the way in which we've been working closely with with Scotland, Wales and with with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as we move forward. And that was part of the reason for, for some of the delays in order to get those agreements for how we move forward together, if I may also make reference to, I'll just make another reference, if I may also make reference to the importance of needing to move ahead quickly with this bill to ensure that we have a seat at the table for discussions with other parties to the agreement, including on MPAs.

And we also wanted to ensure the bill's provisions in devolved areas were watertight and had. And that's why we had those constructive conversations with devolved governments. If I could just make a reference as well in relation to fishing. Part two obligations do not apply to fishing. But I know the the hon. Member has, has, has, has left his pace, but he can reassure that the Northern Ireland Assembly will have concurrent powers to implement provision in areas of devolved competence.

And in part three of the Bill, the UK will be involved in MPA decisions and will carefully consider the impacts on on fishing in relation to comments that were raised in regard to multilateral cooperation. I do want to mention some of the ways in which we continue to work with other states to support ratification. We continue to be proactive in implementing in preparing for implementation of the BBNJ agreement, and are committed to partnering with others, including with the Global South, to implement, to ratify and to implement the agreement and indeed, the foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office has worked with the Commonwealth Secretariat to support smaller member countries with their implementation work and the Department for environment, Food and Rural Affairs also published research to develop a short list of potential area based management tools, including marine protected areas that could be proposed once the agreement is in force.

I was asked as well by the the member. My hon. Friend, the hon. Member for Rotherham about the process of the Bill. I made some remarks remarks, but I may, with permission, make a some further remarks in relation to this. Following the passage of the Bill, we will be laying two Statutory Instruments, one of which will define digital sequence information for the purposes of the BBNJ act and the other, along with an associated Scottish Government, see will amend the marine licensing regime where needed, to implement part four of the BBNJ Agreement on Environmental Impact Assessments.

These will be progressed as soon as the BBNJ Bill has received Royal Assent, and once these CIS have been passed, we will be able to ratify the agreement and do so by laying the instrument of ratification formally at the United Nations in New York. We are keen to see this happen as quickly as possible. As I know my hon. Friend is as well. I do just want to make a reference to the legislative consent motions, and I think the shadow Minister did ask about this in his remarks and to to say that, yes, while foreign affairs and treaty making are reserved matters, implementing international obligations in domestic law is not reserved.

Where those obligations concern devolved areas. Several provisions in the bill, particularly those in relation to parts two, three, and four, relate to matters such as environmental protection and scientific research, which fall within the devolved competence in in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and consequently the legislative consent motion process is engaged to varying degrees, and it has been the case that the assessment of whether the legislative consent motion is required for this bill has been agreed across the relevant UK government departments, including Scotland, Northern Ireland and Welsh offices, and in consultation with the devolved governments.

Now the hon. Member, also the the Shadow Minister. The hon. Member also asked if there is a risk that requirements for an Environmental Impact assessment in Scotland for marine activities in areas beyond national jurisdiction might be different to one in other parts of the United Kingdom. It is the case that Scotland could choose to implement the requirements slightly differently, and we will be continuing to work closely with the Scottish Government to ensure that differences are kept to a minimum, and that the United Kingdom as a whole is taking a consistent approach.

What I will say is that it is very much in the spirit in which we have been working collaboratively to respect devolution settlements, but recognise the importance of this agreement to both the Scottish Government and also to the United Kingdom government. And I think that that has been an important

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part of how we've progressed. I will give way very quickly. Andrew Snowden.

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Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, on that point of and I thank the Minister for answering the question that I answering the question that I raised around the potential for the Scottish Government to take a divergent way in the way that they divergent way in the way that they implement this. If ongoing conversations are underway, can the conversations are underway, can the Minister indicate whether there has been an indication given from the Scottish Government that they are, in fact, going to want to implement this in a slightly or more different way?

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I thank the hon. Member for his for his question. What I what I will say is that we are at the start of the process and the spirit in which we have been working, and the way in which we have reached agreement on how to. We are working alongside the Scottish Government. Is is an important principle of how we would continue to work going we would continue to work going forward. And I and I do believe in light of those conversations that a collaborative approach will continue, because that is in all of our interests as well.

If I could just make some some further comments in relation to the hon. Member speaking for the Liberal Democrats, the hon. Member for South Cotswolds, if I can make a reference to plastic pollution, I think it's important to reference this. It is important to I know members on all sides of the House, but there is a separate process underway to agree. A global plastic pollution treaty. And plastic pollution is a transboundary issue with its source on land, with its.

And it is appropriate for this to be addressed by a bespoke treaty that can address the full life cycle of plastics, and including phasing out problematic products, improving waste management and reducing leakage. The BBNJ agreement focuses on conservation and sustainable use of resources in areas beyond national jurisdiction, and therefore is not best suited to address plastics pollution across the life cycle. But she makes an important point, and it is a matter of concern across the house.

I will say as well, I will give way to my hon. Friend.

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Thank you Minister. Thank you to the Minister. I very much welcome the government's commitment to global leadership on protecting the oceans by bringing forward this bill and so quickly through Parliament. Last week, I joined Greenpeace on board their vessel witness, which was docked nearby in London and heard about the devastation that bottom trawling devastation that bottom trawling can wreak on marine ecosystems. Can the Minister outline what steps the government is taking to regulate, or preferably to ban, this destructive fishing practice in our marine protected zones and elsewhere, as it is a particular

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area of concern for my residents in Exeter. Thank you. I thank my hon. Friend and it is

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I thank my hon. Friend and it is indeed a matter of concern to, as has been raised in debates across the House. And whilst he will know the House. And whilst he will know that bottom trawling is not within the scope of the agreement the scope of the agreement separately, he will also, I think, be aware that we are consulting on restricting bottom trawling in more vulnerable marine habitats, and it's important that that consultation and that work continues. I will just come to a conclusion.

Madam Deputy Speaker, to say that this is a landmark piece of legislation. It does ensure that the UK can ratify the important BBNJ agreement and take full part in the conference of the parties. It contains measures that will not only safeguard marine ecosystems, they will also deliver real benefits for the UK's research and innovation community. In January, I was also pleased to visit the National Oceanography Centre, which the hon. Member also referenced in her comments. I visited them in Southampton, a world leading institution, which highlighted the value of this agreement in improving the visibility and the transparency of UK led marine research, as well as strengthening international research collaborations.

And I do want to put on record my thanks to them for their work and their leadership. And to conclude, I am sure that hon. Members would agree that the health of our ocean is inseparable from the health of our planet. And although we may not often see these ecosystems with our own eyes, the responsibility to protect them falls on all of us and on the wider international community. The BBNJ Bill is the UK's opportunity to rise to that responsibility to safeguard fragile ecosystems, to support sustainable development, and to ensure that the benefits of ocean science are shared fairly and responsibly.

The United Kingdom has always played a leading role in advancing global ocean governance. With this bill, we have the chance to continue that leadership. The ocean cannot wait. And nor, Madam Deputy Speaker, should we. The question is that this House agrees with the Lords in their amendment one. As many as are of that opinion say I of the contrary. No, I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. With the leave of the House. I call the Minister to move that this House agrees with the their Lords and their amendments.

2 to 12. The question is that this House agrees with the Lords in their amendments. 2 to 12 as many are as of that opinion, say I of the contrary. No, I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. Motion number three on business of the House today. Minister to move. Move forward. The question is, as on the Order Paper, the question is as on the Order Paper, as many as are of that opinion. Say I of the contrary.

No, I think the ayes have it. The ayes have it. We now come to the two motions on the high speed rail Crewe to Manchester Bill, which will be debated together. I call the Minister to move the first motion on carry over. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The motions we have before us today are vital for the delivery of the high speed
18:36
Heidi Alexander Portrait Rt Hon Heidi Alexander MP, The Secretary of State for Transport (Swindon South, Labour)
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rail. Crewe to Manchester. Bill, it's important that I am clear at it's important that I am clear at the outset as to what these motions do and what they don't. This is do and what they don't. This is categorically not about reinstating HS2 north of the West Midlands, nor HS2 north of the West Midlands, nor are these motions about addressing the longer term capacity constraints of the West Coast Main constraints of the West Coast Main Line between Manchester and Birmingham. Instead, these motions are simply focussed on ensuring that the government follows the speediest and most logical consenting route to progressing plans for a new rail line between Liverpool and Manchester, a line which will also call at Warrington and Manchester Airport.

This new line, connecting two great cities of the north of England, is part of the second phase of Northern Powerhouse Rail that this government committed to last month, before turning to why it is important to maintain momentum with this bill via these motions today. It may be helpful if I set out a brief history of this bill's passage. Hon. Members will recall that in His Majesty's most gracious speech, this government announced our commitment to carrying over this bill from the previous Parliament.

This is a government that recognises the importance of rail infrastructure in driving economic growth, enhancing productivity and unlocking opportunity in all parts of the country. The bill itself is the mechanism by which planning consent for the eastern part of the new route between Liverpool and Manchester can be granted. Given our ambitions for the north of England, it is important we crack on and get it done. That's why I will give way. Thank you, Secretary of State, for giving way.

The classification of the Northern Powerhouse Rail as an England Wales project is short. Changing Wales a billion and a half pounds, or up to a billion and a half pounds. Cambridge is clear that we need an immediate devolution of rail to end this funding scandal, and even the Labour First Minister of Wales has also claimed that she wants rail devolved. So can the Secretary of State tell me how many official requests has the Welsh Government made for the devolution of rail in Wales? Madam Deputy Speaker, I speak constantly with my counterpart in the Welsh Government, Ken Skates, and we have a very good collaborative working relationship and I would simply remind the hon.

Lady that this government in the Spending Review last year committed £445 million to Welsh Rail, a very, very significant investment which is going to result in improved stations, more reliable, more frequent services for the people of Wales. And it writes that historic lack of investment that Wales has seen. Madam Deputy Speaker, I was explaining why it's so important that we bring these motions today and maintain momentum in gaining planning consent for a new rail route between Liverpool and Manchester.

We need to reconstitute the hybrid Bill select committee, with membership determined in the usual way, and we need to provide for carry over of the bill between sessions. This bill was first introduced in Parliament in January 2022. Since then, the purpose of it has been refined. It was initially intended to provide powers for both HS2 from Crewe to Manchester, as well as the section of the NPR route that would deliver east west connectivity. The previous government's Network North announcement in October 2023 cancelled high speed rail north of the West Midlands, so the HS2 element of the bill was no longer required.

With the support of local leaders. In May 2024, just before the last general election, this House passed an instruction that the bill should be adapted to focus on delivering the section of Northern Powerhouse Rail into Manchester. This is the bill that is now before us. All elements of the bill that pertain to sections of the route south of Millington will be removed. It is the government's intention to table an amendment to formally remove these powers during the Select Committee.

This bill will, however, obtain the necessary powers to deliver the section of Northern Powerhouse Rail into Manchester via Manchester airport. This will include new stations at Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport itself. We are now seeking to progress this bill to make the best use of the significant progress it has already made. This government is investing up to £45 billion to deliver Northern Powerhouse Rail, transforming intercity rail in the north and driving economic growth. Northern Powerhouse Rail will ensure that the people of the North no longer have to tolerate second rate rail infrastructure.

We are delivering a turn up and go railway. We are missing one train no longer means waiting an hour for the next. That means more frequent and reliable commuter services will be the norm. This will help more people access good jobs, will lead to more housing, and offer greater opportunities for businesses to

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expand. I give way. When I come. First of all, I welcome the the government setting welcome the the government setting out the plan and the economic boost that will bring and the purpose behind it. And there's nobody here to say that was wrong, but I'm just concerned about the acquisition of land. The National Farmers Union, for instance, have indicated that they have some concerns over the acquisition of land and farmers and landowners. The Country Landowners Association, as well the term together have some concern over the acquisition of land to enable this project to go ahead.

Can the Secretary of State assure me that the National Farmers Union and the Country Landowners Association, who represent a great many people whose members land may have to be used for this purpose, are given the consultation, or given the right money and the value of the of the land that they will have to give for this railway and ensure that everything is in order for them. Thank you very much.

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And I will ensure that the organisations that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned there are appropriately consulted throughout this process and we're determined to work as a government in partnership with all stakeholders, landowners, businesses, individuals who are affected, of course. The hybrid Bill Select Committee is a hybrid Bill Select Committee is a quasi judicial process. But on behalf of my department, I do undertake to make sure all appropriate conversations are happening. Madam Deputy Speaker, alongside this bill, we are also undertaking development work for the connection to Liverpool via Warrington Bank Quay.

We will work in partnership with local stakeholders throughout the development process and the detailed route from Millington to Liverpool will be subject to future consultation. We will determine the consenting route for this part of the line in due course and will ensure that work on both the eastern and western section of the Liverpool to Manchester line is fully integrated, and that we do everything we can to ensure that the new line is open for use as soon as possible once phase one of Northern Powerhouse Rail in Yorkshire has completed.

Before drawing my remarks to a close, I would just like to express my gratitude to my hon. Friend the Member for Easington and for Birmingham Hall Green and Moseley, and the hon. Member for Brigg and Immingham for their valuable work to date on the hybrid Bill Select Committee in the last Parliament. I beg to move. The question is as on the Order Paper. Shadow Minister Jerome Mayhew.
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Jerome Mayhew Portrait Jerome Mayhew MP (Broadland and Fakenham, Conservative)
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Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I echo the Secretary of State's thanks for Secretary of State's thanks for what must have seemed a very thankless task in the Select Committee. Now, this is a slightly odd legislative vehicle, but it is a practical mechanism used by the last government to allow for continued progress on railway improvement improvements to create Northern Powerhouse Rail. And it was moved across three sessions of Parliament. The the conservative government of the day decided to carry over this bill, to use it as a wrapper to support Northern Powerhouse Rail to a project championed by the right hon.

Member for Richmond and Northallerton during his administration. So it's no surprise to me, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the government has followed his lead in their proposal to carry over today. Back in May 2024, Parliament reduced the scope of a much wider bill to focus solely on NPR. And so the issue now before this House is in fact a very narrow one. Whether there is a collective will to progress development of a roughly 15 mile stretch of track as part of this government's plans to progress Northern Powerhouse Rail.

And secondly, the House is also being asked to agree to the establishment of the new select committee. And that matters very obviously, because the bill is a hybrid bill and it's through the select committee process that outstanding petitions from those directly affected will be considered. And it's also the structure through which any additional provisions brought forward by the government to reshape the bill will be scrutinised. And those newly affected, if there are some by any proposal, will be given the opportunity to be heard.

So if this bill is to be properly repurposed, it's clearly makes sense that the work of the Associated Select Committee carries on. The opposition accepts. The opposition accepts the rationale for allowing the current process to survive the end of this parliamentary term, to give it further time to continue its work. But whilst we agree that the government should continue, it is with increasing concern that I look at the lack of progress that it is actually making. We are. Madam Deputy Speaker, a year and a half into the Labour administration and all we got a couple of weeks ago was a fanfare announcement that Labour would commission consultants reports on how Northern Powerhouse could be built, not just a few £275 million worth of reports every year of this Parliament, £1.1 billion of them, but no sign of any significant building works.

Real progress has been kicked down the road, perhaps because the Minister knows the Secretary of State knows that she does not have the money to do what she has promised. HM Treasury has capped Northern Powerhouse Rail at £45 billion, and yet that was the claimed cost back in 2019. That's before Covid. Since when? We all know that costs have soared. She knows that she doesn't have the money, so she's distracts her backbenchers. With Castle in the air planning with the taxpayer picking up the bill.

I asked the Secretary of State a fortnight ago for clarity, for transparency, even for an indication of how funds were to be reconciled. And she huffed and puffed and she said she wouldn't be lectured, but she didn't answer the question. We are now none the wiser as to how the government expects to fill the gap. What cuts will she be forced to make? Is it to the high speed section? Perhaps she could tell the house today. It would have been better for the public to have had that clarity.

Nearly three weeks ago, than the spectacle of the Secretary of State signing bits of paper on her rail tour of northern cities. We want to see these schemes come on on Budget and in a timely manner, addressing local concerns so that communities are not just spoken to, but listen to, to get the best possible result for taxpayers, the government needs to avoid overly onerous environmental mitigations that impose huge costs for minimal benefit. They talk of deregulation to speed up the process, but where is the action to deregulate? We need to see the government choosing supply chains based on cost and performance, with a value for money for the taxpayer, right at the heart of their decision making process, bringing costs down while speeding up construction.

But we don't see this hard work being done by the government, and we need a government with sufficient backbone to be honest about what it can afford to achieve. There's no sign of that. It is on actual delivery that this government will be judged not just by me, not just by these benches, but by the public right now. They're being let down.
18:49
Grahame Morris Portrait Grahame Morris MP (Easington, Labour)
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Grahame Morris. >> Thank you very much. >> Madam Deputy. >> Speaker. >> And thank you. >> For calling. >> Me to speak in. >> What I believe.

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What I believe. Is a is a really important debate, and I'm delighted to support the government, the support the government, the government's motions, as we continue to invest and transform our rail network after decades of hollow promises and mismanagement under the party opposite. This bill will allow the government the powers necessary to deliver on Northern Powerhouse Rail, therefore supporting our economy, creating better jobs, delivering new and much needed opportunities right across the North West of England.

And I may I may say from a personal point of view, is a frequent user of rail services in the north of England. It's important to me and to my constituents that the government continues to focus on building capacity, reliability and resilience on one of the busiest rail corridors in the country. The importance of our rail network and infrastructure can't be overstated. Indeed, its success will have a direct impact on economic growth and productivity. Madam Deputy Speaker, I do take the point about the need of the desirability for a cross-party consensus, particularly when we're looking at large infrastructure projects such as this.

And indeed on the 14th of January, this government announced a Northern Powerhouse Rail. The Northern Powerhouse Rail represented the biggest investment in rail connectivity in the north. Regeneration. Some £45 billion. More generally. I'm pleased that that the government's looking at the three phase approach and its sequence, its sequencing, will ensure our communities benefit as soon as possible. I note that beyond the scope of the committee in phase one, in my own region in the north, in the North East, work on the business case for the lame sideline is to be taken forward.

This is a vital project for connectivity by creating new transport links and promoting wider access to the wider regional and national rail network. I also welcome the proposed upgrades to the lines east of the Pennines, focusing on electrification, an issue that was of great interest and of importance during my time as a member of the House of Commons Transport Select Committee. I'm pleased by the government's overall scale of ambition and real focus on regional rail services. This bill represents an opportunity for new rail investment and infrastructure, delivering new stations and routes, as well as major regeneration projects, leveraging private sector investment and creating better links across the North west of the country.

Not just north south but also east west. After. After many years of of raised hopes. Can I ask my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State, to ensure the House that this bill is the most effective means of delivering Northern Powerhouse Rail without any unnecessary delay? I might suggest a thought, Madam Deputy Speaker. I've been here a little while now, and I've served on a number of joint committees, mostly pre-legislative committees with members of the House of Lords.

And it seems to me, although the my good friend, the hon. Member for Strangford, who is no longer in his place. Well, it's very unusual, but he he he raised he raised valid concerns about representations from the National Farmers Union and others in respect of the route. My experience, you know, having served for a number of years on the previous bill committee, the, the, the, the hybrid bill committee that that this Parliament has adopted, not just for HS2 but previously, it's a very, very onerous and time consuming method.

It makes vast fortunes for for the bureaucracy and for the lawyers and for the lobbyists. And then, then the whole process has got to be repeated in the House of Lords. So I just wonder whether it's it's beyond my pay grade, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I just wonder whether, whether someone further up the tree might give that some thought. Can I just say again, I'm speeding up. We did get the opportunity to go to Japan on the Transport Select Committee a couple of years ago for five days, and we saw the Shinkansen, you know, the high speed bullet train.

And that was conceived. And the the bill was passed in the Japanese parliament. The dieting, it's called in 1959. It was actually it was it was it was constructed in 1964, in time for the Tokyo Olympics. So, you know, we can't say that sort of democracy that that country doesn't have problems of topography and earthquakes and so on, because it does. And there is a method that doesn't take 10 or 15 years. So anyway, Madam Deputy Speaker, can I just say we're approaching a period of transformational change within public transport, but particularly on on the railways increased capacity and an improved role for for freight in taking HGV off our road network is really important.

So I fully support today's motions to carry this bill beyond the end of this parliamentary session and to establish the Bill select Committee so that we can get Northern Powerhouse Rail charging full steam ahead. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
18:55
Olly Glover Portrait Olly Glover MP (Didcot and Wantage, Liberal Democrat)
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Democrat spokesperson Olly Glover. Glover. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, can I start by thanking the Secretary of State for clarity about what this is and what this isn't? And it is welcome that this is about Northern Powerhouse Rail and the the Manchester to Liverpool core of that, a scheme that the Liberal Democrats continue to support. And of course, we hope that this time those dreams for Northern Powerhouse Rail will become reality, given the very slow journey that they've been on since 2014.

When first proposed. Now, whilst I understand that what the Secretary of State said, that this isn't about Birmingham to Manchester, I hope that she agrees. We are eventually going to need to find a effective solution for transport between the West Midlands and the North West, given the very congested rail network and the M6 being something resembling something covered by Chris Rear in one of his songs, but I appreciate that is a debate for another time. But perhaps I can tempt the Secretary of State into suggesting, in perhaps revealing, when the government intends to bring forward proposals for Birmingham to Manchester improvements.

I also share the sentiments of the hon. Member for Easington, and thank him for his work in the. I wonder whether the Secretary of State has a concern that this bill advocates a similar legislative approach as the rest of HS2 for consenting and planning the route and mitigations, etc. and I wonder what lessons have been or will be learned from that to ensure that the existential despair that is HS2 will not be repeated when attempting to use this procedure to advance Northern Powerhouse Rail.
18:57
Esther McVey Portrait Rt Hon Esther McVey MP (Tatton, Conservative)
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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I rise to object to high speed rail. I rise to object to high speed rail. Crewe to Manchester. Bill carry over select committee motions. Why over select committee motions. Why is there any need to carry this over? To paraphrase Monty Python, this project is no more. It has ceased to be. It has expired and gone to meet its maker. It is a stiff bereft of life. So why won't everyone accept this project is dead? Finito.

Finished. By continuing with the charade. This government is giving false hope to those who want it to happen, just like it did with the WASPI women, and is causing needless anxiety to those in my constituency who don't want it to happen. Why doesn't the government, rather than faffing about with carry over motions, acting more carry on than carry over? Why doesn't it just announce that this project is dead and buried and put it out of its misery once and for all? The government needs to dispose of the properties they have bought and are they are holding on to as well.

Take them out of safeguarding. It seems the government is only proceeding with this carry over motion to try to appease the windbag of the North, Andy Burnham. And if they think this futile gesture is going to make sure he plays nicely and supports the Prime Minister, I feel they are sadly deluded. This is another example of the government making the wrong decision for the wrong reasons. They should have learnt by now that such a tactic will always backfire.

My constituents were extremely grateful to the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Richmond, for cancelling this white elephant project, and this government would do well to follow his lead.
18:59
Heidi Alexander Portrait Rt Hon Heidi Alexander MP, The Secretary of State for Transport (Swindon South, Labour)
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Secretary of State. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It's been a Madam Deputy Speaker. It's been a good debate and I'm very grateful to all the hon. Members who have committed, as I said in my committed, as I said in my introductory remarks, I do believe this first motion and the second one on the Order Paper represent a really important step forward in delivering Northern Powerhouse Rail. And as my hon. Friend the Member for Easington said, these plans will deliver faster, more frequent rail connections between very fast growing city regions in the North that will, of course, enable more jobs, new homes and a greater number of opportunities for businesses to invest and expand.

I would just like to pick up on some of the remarks that have been made by hon. Members. I do welcome the shadow Ministers recognition that this is a practical mechanism for taking forward work on Northern Powerhouse Rail in the North West of England. I do have to say I fundamentally disagree with his characterisation of this government's commitment to Northern Powerhouse Rail. I do say gently to him that it's a bit rich for a party who first talked about Northern Powerhouse Rail in 2014 to criticise this government for investing over £1 billion in this spending review, significantly more than his government ever did during those 12 years since 2024.

And it really is his party that was guilty of dither and delay when it came to improving rail infrastructure in the north of England. You know, he he claims that we're going to be spending significant money on consultants. But let me tell him that the money that we have allocated in the spending review is to acquire land. It's to do preparatory works on the Yorkshire schemes, those three corridors improving links into Leeds, from Bradford, from York, from Sheffield as well as to plan properly.

And we are not to pick up the point made by the the Lib Dem spokesperson. We will not be making the same mistakes as the previous one. We will not be letting contracts when we haven't defined the scope of works, because if he wants to understand why billions of pounds worth of taxpayers money has been wasted on HS2, he needs to ask some of his colleagues some very, very serious questions as to why the go ahead was given to HS2 when they didn't know what they were asking the contractors to build.

I will

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give way. I'm Jerome Mayhew. The Secretary of State and I am the first one to accept that there are serious lessons to be learnt from how HS1 was delivered, but what she sorry HS2 was delivered what she sorry HS2 was delivered what but what she has so far in her closing remarks failed to mention is how she proposes to deliver all that she has promised within a financial cap of £45 billion. Given that the estimate for the the works was 46 billion, I think from memory back in 2019, what is she not going to do in order to stay within the

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Treasury's cap of £45 billion? Secretary of State, as I thought I made clear when I gave my statement to the House on Northern Powerhouse Rail a couple of weeks ago and he made some sarcastic ago and he made some sarcastic comments about my visit to each of comments about my visit to each of the directly elected mayors along the Northern Growth corridor. We've agreed that those mayors and those agreed that those mayors and those areas will be making local contributions to this scheme and that, you know, we are ambitious in terms of our plans for a turn up and go railway in the north of England, and we're going to get on with it.

Unlike his government that never did, the hon. Lady for Tatton gave us some colourful descriptions of what she thinks this rail scheme is all about. But she couldn't be more wrong. As I said, we have worked closely with leaders in the north of England. We've got a sequenced, credible, phased investment plan for how we are going to improve those rail services so that people aren't stood on platforms when they miss a train, worrying the next one is going to take an hour to arrive.

I will give way.

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Esther McVey in her announcement, I think the money being put forward I think the money being put forward was 1.1 billion out of a 45 billion cost, and I think it was to be delivered in decades to come, when delivered in decades to come, when the opposite member will no longer and her government will no longer be around. Hence, it is a charade be around. Hence, it is a charade to keep, to keep the mayors of the North happy at these local

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elections. Secretary of State we've been clear that we expect work to start in this Parliament on the Yorkshire package of improvements. We have also said that we expect work to start in the 2030s, on the link between Manchester and Liverpool. She will recall that when you look at improvements such as Crossrail in London, from the point at which it was granted consent back in 2007 to the line being opened in 2022, I make that 15 years.

You don't build railways over overnight. Madam Deputy Speaker, let me conclude this bill will provide the necessary powers to deliver the section of Northern Powerhouse Rail into Manchester. Progressing this bill today is the most efficient approach, as it makes use of the work that has already taken place. Today's motions will allow the bill to continue its passage through Parliament, and it will allow the invaluable work of the hybrid Bill select Committee to recommence. And this is a vital step in the delivery of Northern Powerhouse Rail.

The question is, as on the Order Paper, As many as of that opinion say aye. Of the contrary, no.

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No, I.
19:05
19:07
19:08
None Portrait Motion: High Speed Rail (Crewe – Manchester) Bill: Select Committee
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long term illness or injury. Extension. Minister to move, move. >> Formally.
19:08
19:08
19:09
None Portrait Adjournment: Tolled crossings and regional connectivity
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19:09
Anna Gelderd Portrait Anna Gelderd MP (South East Cornwall, Labour)
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Whereas, Madam Deputy Speaker, I am pleased to have secured a debate on this issue. This is one I've campaigned on consistently since campaigned on consistently since becoming the MP for South East Cornwall, and one that has existed for many years before my time in this House. It is an issue I hear about daily, because of its impact on almost every aspect of local life. As I begin, I want to thank local residents, community groups including the Tamar Action Group and the save 38 previous MPs, local councillors and the Tamar crossings for their efforts to improve our local transport connectivity.

South East Cornwall is a place that bridges the old and the new. Our communities continue to bring life to historic fishing villages and welcome thousands of tourists annually, while also looking to the future with advanced events capabilities, AI and digital industries, and world leading regenerative agriculture to fully play our part in the next decade of national renewal, we must bridge this gap, both physically and metaphorically, between Cornwall and the rest of the country. This includes a seamless integration of my communities with the New Plymouth defence deal to unlock opportunity in one of the poorest areas in Western Europe, and ensure that South East Cornwall is fully connected to the growth, security and prosperity that we bring.

At its heart, this issue is about how we connect to places and services, how communities function, and how nationally significant infrastructure is sustained. It raises a fundamental question about whether our current connectivity policies reflect lived reality in rural and coastal areas like mine, and whether historic funding models still work in a modern economy. There is a clear I will give way.

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Thank the hon. Member for giving way, and does she agree with me that a real devolution deal, similar to those enjoyed by our Celtic cousins, must include a roads Budget, which is equivalent to the Cornish proportion of the strategic road network, equating to around £95 million a year, easily around £95 million a year, easily making the Tamar toll free around 15 million a and leaving 15 million a and leaving further funds for urgent upgrades like the A30, her constituency like Camelford Relief Road and upgrades

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at blusher and minor. Interventions really must be brief, but I could point out to brief, but I could point out to members that it's so long before 10 p.m. if they wish to make a speech, they could Anna Gelderd.

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they could Anna Gelderd. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I'll come to that later in my speech. There is a later in my speech. There is a clear and well-established link between transport and inequality. Research undertaken in 2019 for the Research undertaken in 2019 for the Department of Transport shows that transport shapes life chances through three factors. First, when people live and their social economic position. Secondly, where opportunities such as jobs and education are limited.

And finally, it shapes how accessible the transport system is in terms of cost, reliability, geography and journey time. That research also shows that transport does not affect everyone equally. Experience changes because of income, location and personal circumstance in rural and coastal areas like South East Cornwall, transport that is affordable and reliable could expand our opportunities. Cost is consistently identified as one of the most significant barriers. Policies that reduce transport costs help people access and sustain employment, particularly those on lower incomes.

However, that same research makes clear that transport policy works best when embedded in a place based approach linked to the skills, housing and employment and economic opportunities on offer. Locally and south east Cornwall is shaped by rivers and coastline that define our landscape and our communities. Connectivity depends on a number of strategic crossings that function as everyday routes to employment, education, healthcare and social connection. These are not optional journeys, they are essential links within a tightly connected economic and social region.

And what makes South East Cornwall unusual is the concentration of tolled crossings that residents rely on daily the Tamar Bridge, the Torpoint Ferry, the Kremlin Ferry, Polruan Ferry and Bodinnick Ferry are part of daily life for many local residents and businesses. Crossing one or more of these happens routinely, sometimes multiple times a day, and the total cost is significant simply to participate in ordinary life, and this has shaped the constituency for decades. It affects where people can work, which services they can realistically access, and how businesses operate.

Yet, despite its scale and impact, we still have not found a workable long term solution. Travel from towns and villages in south east Cornwall to Plymouth are near a city often take far longer than distance alone, would suggest short journeys on a map can become long, expensive and uncertain in practice. The Tamar Bridge and Torpoint Ferry are the only viable crossings linking South East Cornwall with Plymouth and up the up country. Around 16 million vehicle crossings take place each year, with thousands of residents relying on them daily to reach work, and there is no practical alternative direct route, meaning these crossings function as essential infrastructure to local people.

The Tamar Bridge is publicly owned and jointly operated by Cornwall Council and Plymouth City Council. In the 1950s, both authorities sought national funding for a fixed crossing. When that funding was not forthcoming, they proceeded with a locally financed scheme through funded tolls. Parliamentary powers were granted through the Tamar Bridge Act 1957, establishing the joint committee that continues to operate both the bridge and the ferry as a single business unit with all operation, maintenance and improvement funded entirely through toll income. The Torpoint Ferry is the busiest vehicle crossing of an estuary in the United Kingdom, carrying nearly 2 million vehicles each year, one of which is mine.

Many, many times. The Tamar tag has helped some regular users such as myself, but minimum top ups, usability issues and recent proposed increases in admin fees have undermined its purpose. Infrastructure must be maintained, but affordability, transparency and trust are also essential. And further research in 2019 for the Department of Transport estimated that the relationship between transport access and life opportunities found stark reading access to a personal car makes someone nearly four times more likely to be in employment than unemployed, and access to services follow a similar pattern.

People with a personal car access are twice as likely to reach essential services, and transport also shapes social participation. Car access makes people more likely to maintain social connections, particularly those with mobility impairments and those living in rural areas. Transport therefore affects isolation, well-being and quality of life, and our geography amplifies these pressures where water boundaries fragment travel patterns and isolate communities, and where tolls apply, they add a financial barrier on top of physical separation. And for many households, these costs are unaffordable.

Shift work will.

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I thank the hon. Lady for giving me. Would you not agree that in addition to the financial cost, there is an environmental cost on not using tolls because they

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usually present the straightest and most direct route? I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention and a very important intervention and a very important point on the environmental impacts, and I'll come to that later in my speech as well. The geography speech as well. The geography amplifies those pressures, and the water boundaries bring a particular problem. A standard car journey costs £3 to leave Cornwall on the Tamar Bridge and on the Torpoint Ferry. The Kreml ferry charges £3 per adult for a single journey, and similar other crossings are around that that area, but some local residents concessions do exist and recent proposed admin costs triggered the significant level of concern because the total amount of these crossings is unaffordable for many people.

The Tamar Tolls Action Group and myself and other MPs called for a rethink and an extraordinary meeting of the local authorities happened. Some may argue that the toll prices are not extreme, but as I mentioned, they add up quickly and I was glad to see this meeting happen. And changes considered. Average incomes in South East Cornwall are about 20% lower than the national median, and residents have to cross frequently so that these costs really do add up in our local communities. And there's clear evidence of isolation across parts of south east Cornwall and wider Cornwall, with communities falling within recognised measures of poor accessibility in both travel time and services.

Digital connectivity adds to this pressure. Broadband and mobile coverage remain inconsistent, limiting our remote working, our online services and business development. Reinforcing this physical isolation rather than easing it so digital connectivity is increasingly very important. Alongside this, physical transport and research by the Department for culture, Media and Sport highlights that negative impacts of poor broadband on farmers, including reduced productivity, compliance challenges and limited market access something really important for South East Cornwall high speed broadband supports economic growth, productivity and educational outcomes, and we have the foundations for this model.

Modern flexible economy in south east Cornwall. People want to live there, work there and build businesses there. The well known surf and code model seen in places like California and in Portugal, reflects a real opportunity to combine the quality of life that we see in this coastal and rural area in Devon and in Cornwall, but it depends on sustained investment in physical and other types of connectivity, such as digital. And currently our public transport does not bridge the gap. Bus services are often infrequent and ferry services remain essential, but are shaped by these costs that I've discussed.

When disruption occurs, the system offers little flexibility and in South East Cornwall, bus service fell by around 50% between 2010 and 2023. The Conservatives stripped the ability for our rural communities to get around, and then systematically dismantled our public services to. The pressure has gone on for far too long, and communities like mine need support. Cornwall's rail connectivity depends, as you know, on a single line through Dawlish, and recent storm damage again highlights the fragility of that route. Following the collapse of the seawall in 2014.

Climate change is accelerating faster than our adaptation, and resilience must now be built into long term infrastructure planning. So phase six of the Dawlish Resilience work and the reopening of the Tavistock line remained share shared aspirations between Cornwall and Devon. What come next must be credible, long term and capable of carrying the confidence of South-West communities. The existing Department for transport Investment should be leveraged alongside local and regional funding to improve resilience and open these new routes. For anyone who has visited Cornwall, they will know and understand that our road network remains a challenge.

Country lanes are often narrow, overgrown and dangerous and the A38 remains the main route in south east Cornwall and has claimed too many lives. The recent safety upgrades are very welcome and I pay tribute to all involved in making these possible for our area, but these transport constraints carry economic consequences. Businesses facing higher operating costs and reduced labour pools. Tradespeople absorb toll charges. Competitors elsewhere simply do not face and

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recruitment. I will give. Jim Shannon on the title of tolled crossings and regional connectivity. And that's how I spoke to the hon. Lady, and I commend her for South East Cornwall commend her for South East Cornwall for enabling me to intervene with a slightly similar issue in Northern Ireland, where connectivity in Ireland, where connectivity in relation to Northern Ireland and the Republic. Those who want to go to work cross the border to go from to work cross the border to go from Northern Ireland or Republic and the country at all.

They have to pay the toll as the only way there. If you want to go to the airport, you pay the toll. If you want to go to tourism, you pay the toll. And does the hon. Lady agree that the information on EEZ payment system must be in place to ensure that people from all areas, and especially tourists, can access these roads without undue charges? We can't control the charges, but we have to pay them. Anna Gelderd.

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I thank the hon. Member for his intervention and agree that these impacts on communities are very difficult. The situation is not a new one, and we continue to use historic funding models that reflect the priorities of their time. Over the years, there have been reviews, consultations and partial reforms, but no holistic restructure. Residents and businesses have continued to pay businesses have continued to pay year after year, while the underlying system remains unchanged and elsewhere in the UK, similar situations have been resolved.

Tolled crossings have been reduced, capped or removed, and South East Cornwall now has a clear opportunity to act firmly aligned with national interests for growth across the UK. The Tamar crossings are critical to our local economy and to our National defence naval base, Devonport, and supporting sites rely on a large mobile workforce and complex supply chains crossing the Tamar daily. Long term Ministry of Defence investment depends on reliable connectivity between Cornwall, Plymouth and the wider region, and Cornwall has deep ties to these armed forces.

South East Cornwall is a high number of veterans and serving personnel, with almost 14% of the residents of Torpoint having served communities that contribute so directly to our national defence should not face barriers to their daily life, so local residents and businesses effectively support significant infrastructure, and Cornish waters are used for Navy testing and training. 23% of Babcock's Devonport workforce live in south

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east Cornwall. As we look to the future, this connectivity must also be considered. On that point.

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On that point. I will. Thomas. I thank the hon. Member for giving way and for making such an giving way and for making such an important point about the fact that regional connectivity, including with Tolled crossings and especially between south east Cornwall, where she represents, and between Plymouth where I represent, between Plymouth where I represent, are integral to our nation's defence and our ability to carry out its taskings. So does she agree with me that this type of regional connectivity needs to be looked at

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cross-department by government very much, including by the Ministry of Defence? Anna Gelderd.

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Anna Gelderd. I thank the hon. Member for his intervention and I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment. This interaction between defence, regional connectivity, transport and what we're looking to achieve down in the South West really needs down in the South West really needs that cross-governmental consideration. And this goes beyond defence, with Cornwall reviving its defence, with Cornwall reviving its mining heritage through the development of critical minerals recognised through Labour's Kernow Industrial Growth Fund, supporting cleaner energy supplies, economic independence and backing British business Cornwall also has a major international cultural and tourism value.

From our historic landscape and mythical legends to world leading attractions like the Eden Project. Our food culture from cream teas to Cornish pasties has global appeal, something I've seen first hand and Cornwall I will. I will do.

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My register of interests and thank my hon. Friend for giving way on that point about Cornwall's on that point about Cornwall's economic potential and particularly the role of critical minerals. But does she agree with me that in an does she agree with me that in an ideal but not unimaginable world that we would have electric ferries that we would have electric ferries ideally powered by Cornish lithium batteries, which would reduce the operating costs of those ferries, operating costs of those ferries, and therefore the subsidy effectively paid by Tamar Bridge

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users to that service. Anna Gelderd I thank the hon. Member for his intervention, which really goes to the heart of this question. How do we move communities like ours into the future, taking advantage of cleaner, future, taking advantage of cleaner, greener, cheaper sources of energy and bringing down costs for local residents? The Plymouth defence residents? The Plymouth defence deal presents a real opportunity. These tolled crossings are enabling infrastructure and backing resilience, addressing them alongside defence investments aligns local fairness with our national priorities and the strengths deserve an infrastructure that enable growth rather than holding it back.

So Cornwall is modernising, our economy is evolving and our ambitions are forward looking. And that brings me to the first of my three points, focussed on proving fairness and future proofing the Tamar crossings. Firstly, devolution of the necessary powers. Current legislation limits the ability of local authorities to reform tolling structures in line with modern use, so devolving powers would enable local decisions aligned with our national objectives and secondly, grant funding to support long term reform. Removing or reducing tolls without replacement revenue risks shifting burden onto local authorities and council taxpayers, so grant funding would recognise national benefit and avoid unintended consequences.

And third, debt relief linked to historic financing. Existing debt structure drive continued resilience on reliance on toll income, and it restricts future options. So addressing this legacy debt would allow the crossings to come into the 21st century. And so onto the wider picture of unlocking our potential. My fourth point is on safety and resilience to the A38. This is the main road through South East Cornwall with continued action and investment following recent safety upgrades. We must continue to make sure that they are further resilient.

And fifth, we must we must strengthen rail resilience and access through Dawlish. Cornwall's rail connectivity depends on that single climate vulnerable line and to ensure regional growth, we need a strategic rail plan and a phase six of the Dawlish Resilience Programme and finally improving digital connectivity across South East Cornwall. Reliable, high quality broadband and mobile coverage are needed throughout the area. Together, this provides a credible route towards resolving a long standing issue and I urge the Minister to engage with myself and with neighbouring colleagues, many of whom are here today, to recognise the role that these Tamar crossings play in regional connectivity in terms of national defence, food production, regional economic growth and work with local partners to deliver fair and modern reform.

With those powers held locally fair funding and long term vision, we can move at pace to fulfil the potential that we see and through this infrastructure, who we rely on day by day across both sides of the Tamar.
19:27
Ben Maguire Portrait Ben Maguire MP (North Cornwall, Liberal Democrat)
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Yeah, yeah. >> Ben Maguire. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And I've taken up your kind invitation to make a short speech. invitation to make a short speech. And I thank the hon. Member for South East Cornwall for making an excellent speech and for raising this really important issue in the this really important issue in the House today. I just wanted to make a few brief points, if I may, and particularly while we have the roads Minister here today, which is that the focus nationally in recent times has obviously been on train connectivity in the North.

So I'm really pleased to see Cornwall and Devon and the wider south west getting a proper share of the debate this evening. One point I really wanted to make while the Minister is here, is that National Highways don't currently contribute any maintenance monies to the Tamar bridge, despite the fact that the Tamar Bridge is a very critical part of their roads network. And I understand, Madam Deputy Speaker, that recently it costs as much as £6 million to resurface the Tamar Bridge, because it's a very complex method that needs to be used.

But not a penny of that was spent by National highways. It was used from the tolls which are generated.

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Well, the hon. Member. I will give way. The honourable. Member is making a very

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Member is making a very important point about the lack of National Highways funding for the bridge. But does he share my bridge. But does he share my delight at the £220 million investment coming into Cornwall's roads from national government? I roads from national government? I think it's a record breaking investment that we're seeing in our roads besides that. But that's not to detract from the point he's

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to detract from the point he's making about the lack of that. Tamar Bridge. Ben Maguire. I thank the hon. Member for that intervention, and hopefully some of that money will go to the Tamar Bridge, and hopefully him and I can make that argument to the Minister who sat here today and, and her colleagues. Certainly there are other road projects across Cornwall. The hon. Member for South East Cornwall passionately made the point about the A38, which is something my constituents frequently raised with me.

So hopefully that's another project that can be funded from this large amount of money we're hearing is coming to Cornwall's road network. We also have safety upgrades which are much needed in my constituency. We also have, as I know, the minister's already aware because I've met her on numerous occasions about upgrades to the Camelford Relief road, which has been promised over many years. And as I mentioned before, I really hope that a devolution deal now is forthcoming, where we see the equivalent to the Cornish proportion of the strategic road network, which would be around £96 million a year.

This evening we're talking about making the Tamar Tolled crossing cheaper for local residents, or potentially removing the toll altogether, which would be a cost of around £15 million a year. So that £96 million, as our Celtic cousins enjoy as part of their devolution deal, they get. Madam Deputy Speaker, an equivalent Budget to the amount of road network they have in their nations that would leave plenty of money left over for the A30 upgrades that the hon. Members mentioned. It would leave plenty of money for lots of upgrades across Cornwall, so I've just I will give way.



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My honourable the hon. Member for making that point. I think it's really important to recognise that really important to recognise that as we go forward into the future of Cornwall, the costs involved in in Cornwall, the costs involved in in these projects involve maintenance, electrification, lots of other elements to that, the figures that elements to that, the figures that he's talking there. So together we must work within concrete resources to make sure that cheaper tolls for

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to make sure that cheaper tolls for local people are delivered. Ben Maguire. Absolutely. And I agree with the hon. Member on that point. The last point I'd just like to make, Madam Deputy Speaker, is that my constituents in my North Cornwall constituency frequently used the Tamar Bridge crossing and they actually rely for their healthcare on Derriford Hospital in Plymouth. So they actually have to make that journey. It's not a shopping trip or a leisure trip, they really need to make that journey.

It takes around two hours by public transport to get to that hospital, and it takes almost one hour to get to that hospital by car, which is still quite staggering. And on top of the fuel costs, on top of the car costs to run their car, they have to pay this £3 charge. And that's before we get to the extortionate costs of the hospital car park once they arrive. So I really would urge the Minister to factor this in to the department's thinking, because this isn't just leisure trips we're talking about.



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This is really important. Vital healthcare routes. Thank you. Perran Moon.

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Perran Moon. Madam Deputy Speaker, I just wanted to make a few short points wanted to make a few short points and I thank the my hon. Friend from south east Cornwall for this really south east Cornwall for this really important debate today. Just to expand on a couple of things that
19:32
Perran Moon Portrait Perran Moon MP (Camborne and Redruth, Labour)
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expand on a couple of things that have already been mentioned. As I say to several members, particularly from this part of the world, as we sit here today, Madam Deputy Speaker, we are closer to Middlesbrough than my constituency in Camborne. And indeed, when we think about the South West, or at least the country thinks about the South-West, they think of Bristol as being part of the South-West. Bristol is closer to Manchester than it is my constituency in Campbell.

Just to give you an idea of the scale of where we are and when it comes to this really important question of regional connectivity, I would gently say to the Minister, the government, over the course of the last 18 months has invested over £100 million in Cornish metals, in Cornish lithium. And as we've already heard in the Industrial Growth Fund, in order to maximise the the potential of that investment, it's absolutely essential that we have the transport infrastructure to support it and that includes the Tamar, the

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Tamar crossing. What my hon. Friend give way. I will give way on that. Thank him for giving way. And I

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Thank him for giving way. And I wanted to briefly ask if indeed we're taking this kind of growth, local growth approach, which I know local growth approach, which I know is so important to our government, but then surely a deal for the

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but then surely a deal for the Tamar must be a crucial part of any devolution arrangement, apparently. Well, I thank my hon. Friend,

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Well, I thank my hon. Friend, for for for that intervention. I think he's absolutely right. This should form the Tamar Bridge. Should should form part of a package of of transport support that we need that will include the mainline rail upgrades to the A30, as we've already heard. And importantly, a complete review of the funding model for our one regional airport at Newquay, which which needs to be considered in the round. But I but I'd also like to make the point about as as my hon.

Friend from south east Cornwall has already made in relation to car ownership in Cornwall, and this is one of the quite gross distortions of Westminster funding modelling that we look at car ownership as a as an indicator of affluence. It's quite the opposite because in Cornwall our public transport systems are so poor. We have one of the highest car ownerships in the country per capita. And the reason for this is that for many people, particularly for young people who need to get to colleges or develop the skills that they need to, to, to, to work in some of those organisations that I've just mentioned, if you don't own a car in Cornwall, in large swathes of Cornwall, you are completely housebound, you're completely isolated.

This is a real problem, as my hon. Friend mentioned as well, in relation to loneliness and the lack of access to to kind of social, social groups, which is really important in terms of people's mental health. So there are wide ranging issues with the lack of connectivity across Cornwall, which is why it is so important, as the hon. Member for North Cornwall mentioned, that part of our devolution arrangement needs to consider this. The implications of of of our remote coastal geography in relation to both business development, our youth and young people in the skills that they need, but also importantly for the social aspect, the, the you know, as our population ages and sadly, we we see more and more young people leaving Cornwall because they cannot get the, the, the, the work that they, that they need, particularly driven by our acute housing crisis.

We really do need to look at a a holistic strategy to cover the, the whole of Cornwall, a very important part of which is the Tamar crossing.

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Yeah. Minister.

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Minister. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And I'd like to begin by And I'd like to begin by congratulating my hon. Friend on securing this debate and for speaking so enthusiastically and speaking so enthusiastically and eloquently about regional transport connectivity, about the challenges connectivity, about the challenges around inequality and the costs of told journeys such as those on the Tamar Bridge and Torpoint Ferry.
19:37
Lilian Greenwood Portrait Lilian Greenwood MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Transport) (Nottingham South, Labour)
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Tolls in her south east Cornwall constituency. She is indeed a powerful advocate for those she represents. I recognise the importance of high quality importance of high quality transport links and infrastructure, and the challenges people are facing with the cost of travel, facing with the cost of travel, especially those living in coastal and rural areas like south east Cornwall. I'm grateful, Madam Cornwall. I'm grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to discuss these key topics with members of the House today, including many from the South West, and I'm noting the far southwest, including hon.

Members for North Cornwall, for Plymouth Moor View, Saint Austell and Newquay and of course, Camborne and Redruth. And it's good to have the opportunity to explain the government's position and ongoing approach. Improving transport connectivity is a top priority for this government. For too long, people living in rural areas like Cornwall have felt isolated and cut off from essential services and facilities, and we are determined to take steps to change that now. I'm sorry to disappoint the hon. Member for North Cornwall, but I'm afraid I am no longer the roads Minister.

But I certainly agree that roads matter, and I'm delighted that in the Spending Review we provided £24 billion of capital funding between 20 2627 and 20 2930 to maintain and improve

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roads across England. At that point the. Minister give way. I will give way.

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I will give way. Can I thank the Minister very much for giving way and also congratulate my hon. Friend the congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall, for her great speech, and for securing this debate just on the matter of this debate just on the matter of the government spend on transport infrastructure. Those present and the Minister may know that I remain a very strong supporter of the Lower Thames Crossing project, which will, when built, hugely reduce congestion at the Dartford Crossing and make the quality of life and the air quality for my constituents in Dartford massively better.

And I'd like to thank the Minister and her team for the progress that's been made on that project, and we expect spades to be in the ground in 2026 this year, which is wonderful. Would the Minister agree with me, though, that when the lower Thames crossing is built and you have the Dartford Crossing and the Lower Thames crossing as crossings over the Thames east of London, London, that it's particularly important that the tolls for both crossings are equalised. So there's no financial incentive to use one rather than

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the other, and traffic can flow freely through both across the Thames. Minister.

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Well, I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, and I'll make a diversion down to the southeast of diversion down to the southeast of England to say the government is committed to delivering the Lower Thames Crossing, which is the most Thames Crossing, which is the most significant road building scheme in a generation. It'll be providing more than 400,000 jobs within an hour's commute of local communities. And of course, it will ease congestion at the Dartford Crossing. Now, whilst the charging regime for the Lower Thames crossing has not been set, it will, like other crossings in England such as the Dartford Crossing, have a charge applied in order to cover the cost to providing that infrastructure, and the DCO made clear that it's our intention that both the tolls will be equal when the lower Thames crossing opens.

Now turning back to the south west, and there was a question raised about National Highways role, because I know, of course, that the A38 on either side of the Tamar Bridge is is the responsibility of National Highways as being part of the strategic road network, but not the bridge itself. However, whilst the Tamar crossings themselves are not the responsibility of National highways, it does make, of course, an operational contribution each year towards the Saltash Tunnel tidal flow system, which is monitored by the board that manages the bridge and the ferry.

Now we saw the completion of the essential major road network scheme in Cornwall, linking Saint Austell to the A30 last July, and look forward to progression of the Manadon interchange scheme in Plymouth, which will benefit so many people using the road network. And, Madam Deputy Speaker, the government is committed to supporting local authorities in maintaining and renewing the local highway network, which is why by 20 2930, we will commit over £2 billion annually for local authorities to repair and renew their roads and fix potholes.

That's doubling the funding since we came into office. Cornwall. I will indeed.

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The Minister for giving way, and I humbly ask, perhaps she may be able to write to the Cornish MPs to able to write to the Cornish MPs to see what proportion of that 2 billion, I think, she said, by 2030 might come to our region, and might come to our region, and perhaps then we can see how this might contribute to reducing or maybe even removing the tolls on

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maybe even removing the tolls on the bridge. Good. Well, he'll be delighted to hear that Cornwall will benefit from up that Cornwall will benefit from up to £221 million of that £2 billion over the next four years, alongside over £24 million of local transport grant capital for maintenance and enhancement. Of course we don't just need better roads, better links through high quality public transport are also essential. People have a right to expect cohesive, reliable bus networks, enabling them to travel easily and comfortably to get to work, to school, to social clubs, to to shops, and to see friends and family, and of course, to visit hospitals and other health facilities.

As a number of colleagues have mentioned. As my hon. Friend said, under the previous government, many thousands of bus services were lost, leaving communities cut off and reducing people's opportunities for travel and all that that means. That is why, Madam Deputy Speaker, despite the challenging financial position this government inherited, we are investing over £3 billion for the rest of the spending review period to support local leaders and bus operators across the country to improve bus services for millions of passengers, including those living in rural areas.

This is additional funding to the more than £1 billion we are already providing this financial year. We are also giving the certainty that local authorities and bus operators need to build their networks longer term, through multi-year allocations under the local authority bus grant, totalling nearly £700 million per year. This puts an end to the previous short term approach to bus funding, enabling councils to plan their spending more strategically. Ensuring outcomes for passengers are always the top priority. Cornwall Council will receive over £30 million of this funding from 2026 27 to 20 2829, in addition to the £10.6 million they're receiving this financial year.

And on top of that, we continue to see the benefits yielded by our decision to extend the £3 national bus fare cap until March 2027, making bus journeys consistently more affordable for passengers. As my hon. Friend has said, in many of these areas, people have low incomes and that's why it is so important that we're cutting the cost of bus travel. Additionally, we're funding bus franchising pilots to test the viability of different franchising models so that we can understand how these can deliver better bus services, including in rural locations.

And this includes a pilot in Cornwall. And I await the results with interest now. Active travel infrastructure to improve walking, wheeling and cycling routes remains essential. Following on from almost £300 million that the government provided for active travel schemes up to 2026, we announced an additional £626 million for such infrastructure in a four year settlement to help local authorities further improve active travel facilities and support network planning. Cornwall Council will benefit from over £4.5 million of this funding.

Now. Connectivity through reliable rail services is equally important and I acknowledge hon. Members concerns about resilience on the rail line in Cornwall and Devon, particularly given the recent recent adverse weather. Network rail are responsible for maintaining the rail network and have established processes in place for ensuring that it's safe to use when incidents happen. They continue to work closely with rail operators to help affected passengers, and to restore services as quickly as possible. We announced in the November Budget that for regulated fares, rail passengers will not be faced with the increased cost in rail journeys that they have become accustomed to year on year.

We are freezing regulated rail fares until March 2027 for the first time in 30 years. Meanwhile, 26 class 175 trains are being introduced onto Great Western Railway routes in Devon and Cornwall. During this year, they will replace older diesel units, improve capacity and reliability and free up rolling stock for wider use across the South West, providing resilience across the network. The introduction of these trains on the Newquay branch line is part of Mid-cornwall Metro, doubling the frequency of trains on this branch and connecting rural communities to employment and education in Truro and Falmouth, and as part of our commitment to improving digital technology for passengers, we secured funding to fit all mainline trains with low Earth orbit satellite technology to upgrade on train Wi-Fi.

Now, the hon. Member quite rightly brought to my attention in recent correspondence road safety issues, in particular the need to reduce speeding in rural areas. The government recently released the first road safety strategy in more than a decade, setting out our vision for a safer future on our roads for all. This strategy sets an ambitious target to reduce the number of people killed or seriously injured on British roads by 65% by 2035, with measures to protect vulnerable road users, updated vehicle safety technologies and a review of motoring offences.

And I know these are particular concerns in rural areas, which are disproportionately places where fatal, fatal collisions occur. And Madam Deputy Speaker, in overarching support for delivering everything I've mentioned today and to gain and maintain momentum in driving forward better transport for everyone, our forthcoming Integrated National Transport Strategy has been informed by extensive engagement with the public and our stakeholders. It will set out the government's vision of putting people at the heart of everything we do better, connecting places and working in partnership with local leaders and experts to deliver.

It will help drive improvements in the experience for all users of the transport system, and empower local leaders to deliver good transport that is right for their communities. Place is at the heart of our strategies. Now I'd like to turn now to tolls and in particular the Tamar Bridge and Torpoint Ferry, which I'll refer to as the Tamar Crossings, as these are tied together under the Tamar Bridge Act 1957. Now, I thank my hon. Friend for continuing to support local people who have understandably expressed concerns about increasing toll charges and network congestion, as many of them pay these charges.

As we've heard, to access essential services and this can be a financial burden. And so I recognise the Tamar crossing as a very important issue for her and her constituents and those, of course, other hon. Friends here this evening. Now, as we've already heard, the Tamar Crossings are jointly owned and operated by Cornwall Council and Plymouth City Council, and between them they carry 16 million vehicles on the bridge and 2 million on the ferries each year. The crossings are operated together as a joint service and are funded by users through toll income.

No funding is received from the owners of the crossings, and there is no specific central government funding stream for the upkeep of Tolled crossings like Tamar. In fact, over 20 road and ferry crossings in England have tolls or charges, and it remains government policy that river and estuarial crossings will normally be funded by tolls. Recognising the extra cost of their construction and maintenance, and also the benefits for users in connecting places that would otherwise require lengthy journeys. Whilst increases in toll charges are understandably disappointing for the public, they do remain essential to ensure the long term sustainability of the crossings operation, which itself is essential to secure strong regional connectivity.

And the Tamar crossings are not alone in this. Tolls and charges have increased or been introduced in many places over the last 12 months, including across the Humber, Mersey, Thames and Tyne. Raising tolls is not done lightly. Rigorous processes are in place for assessing proposed toll increases. Applications can be made by asset owners to the Secretary of State, not less than 12 months from the date of the previous increase, or a refusal to approve an increase, and the proposed change must be advertised in the local media before public consultation, where objections are received and not resolved.

A public inquiry is arranged, after which the inspector in attendance submits their recommendation to the DFT for a decision. Issues relating to the crossings, including the tolls, are determined locally by the Tamar Bridge and Torpoint Ferry Joint Committee, established under the 1957 act. The Joint Committee's view is that owing to inflation and other issues, there is a need for additional income via the toll. Given the cost of living pressures for so many people, I recognise that this is challenging, but it is vital to the future of the crossings.

My fellow Ministers and I welcome any suggestions from the Joint Committee for Improving Operations of the Bridge and Ferry Services, and I commend their ongoing work in developing and delivering the Tamar 2050 plan, which aims to provide users of the crossings with a more stable and certain future. And I know that the Tamar crossings will become even more essential following the announcement last September that Plymouth had been named as one of five key national defence growth areas in the UK Defence Industrial Strategy.

I hope that she and my hon. Friend for Plymouth Moor View in particular, welcome that DFT officials are working collaboratively with Plymouth, with Devon County and Cornwall county councils alongside National Highways, Network Rail, Peninsula Transport, subnational transport body and many others to ensure that transport challenges in the South-West, including those concerning the Tamar crossings, are identified and addressed over the coming years through a joined up approach which I support and welcome enormously, and I am sure that my honourable colleagues will have heard the call for more cross-government working in relation to these issues, which I hope my remarks today will assure her are happening.

I'll close, Madam Deputy Speaker, by sincerely thanking my hon. Friend for securing this debate and allowing me to address the House about such important issues for South-West Cornwall South East Cornwall communities and indeed more widely across the country. I wish to reassure the House that this government is providing record levels of investment to roads, rail, buses and active travel projects across the country to connect people to jobs, education and opportunities. We will continue to drive forward improvements in transport, demonstrated by our multi-year investment to help support economic growth and our wider plan for change, and I look forward to working closely with my hon.

Friends in delivering our Integrated National Transport Strategy and continuing to make transport provision better for

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everyone right across the country. The question is that this House

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The question is that this House do now adjourn. As many as are of that opinion, say I. The ayes have
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