Live Debate: Commons Chamber

Urgent Question: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care if he will make a statement on the adequacy of Jhoots as a pharmacy provider

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shortly. To Admiral.

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Thank you, Madam. Deputy Speaker, to ask. The Minister. Whether. He will make a statement on the

12:45

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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12:48

Edward Morello MP (West Dorset, Liberal Democrat)

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Miss Morello. speaker for granting this Urgent Question. I thank the Minister for his response. The collapse of service provision in some places, the constant closure in others, and general governance at its pharmacy, which operates 150 branches across England, does demand immediate ministerial intervention. In West Dorset. Dukes branches in Lyme Regis and Bridport have closed for months, leaving thousands without access to essential medication and placing huge strain on overstretched neighbouring pharmacies. Staff have gone months without pay despite payslips being issued, tax deductions made and pension contributions not deposited.

I have been contacted only this morning by staff who have not been paid for the third month. Many are unable to buy food, pay rent and are relying on food banks and the amazing communities that have stepped up to support them. There have been reports of staff recruited by skilled workers, visas being left without income or resource. I have also been made aware of deeply troubling reports of controlled drugs being removed without proper documentation or process, which, if proven true, may constitute a breach of the Misuse of Drugs Act.

I have raised my concerns with the General Pharmaceutical Council, HMRC, NHS, BHA, the ICB and Minister Kinnock who I thank for his response. And while I understand that processes must be followed, this situation requires immediate action. Staff are not being paid. People across the country do not have access to vital medicine. Can the Minister please confirm what steps are being taken to ensure that all staff are paid without delay? What discussions have taken place with the NHS, BHA, the General Pharmaceutical Council and other regulators about whose business practices? And finally, will the government commit to urgently reviewing its suitability as an NHS pharmacy provider? Outline what safeguards will be introduced to prevent this from happening again, and review the pharmacy funding model.

12:50

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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Yeah.

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Well, I thank the honourable gentleman for his words and I agree with absolutely everything he's just with absolutely everything he's just said. It is completely and utterly unacceptable. If a business such as unacceptable. If a business such as Jutes is not paying its staff, if indeed there are these reports that indeed there are these reports that control drugs are not being handled properly, I would strongly recommend that any mishandling of drugs be reported to the General Pharmaceutical Council, who regulate pharmacy professionals and premises pharmacy professionals and premises so that appropriate action can be taken.

Regarding his question on taken. Regarding his question on paying staff, pharmacy staff are paying staff, pharmacy staff are vitally important parts of our NHS in terms of the NHS, part of what in terms of the NHS, part of what pharmacy does, they provide vital services to our communities and should be paid according to their should be paid according to their contracts. Any failure to do so is completely unacceptable. Of course, pharmacy staff are not employed by pharmacy staff are not employed by the NHS, but by those businesses that they work for.

Therefore, any dispute between staff and a pharmacy business should be raised with the advisory, conciliation and arbitration service Acas. But I am arbitration service Acas. But I am also in touch with the DEA, the Pharmacy Defence Association, and I know they're doing important work in terms of representing their members, and I will be meeting soon with them as well. But we do we have, of course, responsibility for the NHS part of the work, but it is up to individual businesses to ensure that their employees are treated fairly.

In terms of the review of suitability to operate. As he rightly points out, we are looking at this now across the board in terms of what is the role of the General Pharmaceutical Council, what role is what's taking place in terms of ICB taking contract action, where

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there is no sign of improvement and the pharmacies continue. To be in breach? The next escalation for that is

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The next escalation for that is that they be struck off the pharmaceutical register. That takes some time because certain pharmacies some time because certain pharmacies I'm not going to name names, but I'm sure the honourable gentleman can imagine who are trying every single imagine who are trying every single thing they can to appeal, to push back, to stop some of the actions back, to stop some of the actions that we're seeking to take that is elongating the time that that this elongating the time that that this all takes.

But I want to be clear that if there is clear breach and that action is not taken to remedy

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that action is not taken to remedy that breach, then pharmacies will be struck off the pharmaceutical register. Very own pharmacist Sadik

12:52

Sadik Al-Hassan MP (North Somerset, Labour)

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Al-Hassan. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And as a pharmacist for nearly 20 And as a pharmacist for nearly 20 years an MP of North Somerset, I have the dubious pleasure of having. Two Cahoots pharmacies in the town of Portishead in my constituency. Now, I can't say operating because they shuttered their doors. I with reports of them not having paid their bills, not having paid their rent, not having paid their staff. Now.

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As a as. A pharmacist, I know that this

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A pharmacist, I know that this affects the perception and view of community pharmacy up and down the community pharmacy up and down the country. Can I ask the minister what efforts he and the department are efforts he and the department are planning to mean that bad actors in the pharmacy space, such as, in my

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the pharmacy space, such as, in my opinion, cahoots, seem to be. Obviously one.

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Obviously one. I are going to be dealt with more quickly and more effectively under new legislation.

12:54

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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new legislation. Should not be statements, Minister. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Well, I thank my hon. Friend and I pay tribute to his direct professional expertise and experience as a pharmacist. He is right to point to the fact that the regulatory framework is clearly not as strong as it needs to be. The behaviour I've spoken with officials in my department who've worked in the pharmacy sector for many, many years. They haven't seen anything like this before.

It is quite unprecedented. But nevertheless, I think what it is doing is shining a light on the fact that we don't have a strong enough regulatory framework. We need to look at the way that business owners are regulated. There is strong regulation in terms of pharmacists and pharmacy staff, technicians, etc, but business owners are not being regulated as strongly as they could and should be. He's right. That speed is also very important. That's why we need to look at ways of fast tracking, particular cases where there is clear breach, because sometimes the appeal process can be very slow indeed.

We are looking at all of this in the round, and I have commissioned urgent advice from my officials to see how we can beef up the regulatory framework. Evans.

12:55

Dr Luke Evans MP (Hinckley and Bosworth, Conservative)

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Thank you. weekend, said he's concerned that reports of Cahoots Pharmacy branches across England failing patients risks damaging community pharmacies reputation and could imperil its ability to secure a good 20 2627 funding settlement across the country. Communities have been left without functioning pharmacies, doors locked without notice, patients arriving to find no pharmacist, no prescriptions, no stock, staff on staff threatened with being sacked. Cahoots pharmacy faces allegations of not paying wages, repossessed premises and serious regulatory breaches.

The General Pharmaceutical Council has already intervened several times, yet for many patients, it's too late. They simply can't get their medicines. This is not an isolated business failure. It exposes a deeper fragility in the community pharmacy network, one that local people depend on for basics and often life saving care. So I have three four. Questions for the minister. Number one, when was the NHS England first made aware of these closures? And has the Minister met with the Cahoots leadership? If not, why not? And if he did, what was the outcome? Number two has the department assessed how many people have been left without local pharmacy? Access? Is the result of Cahoots actions, and what is the minister doing to remedy this considering it's across the country? He mentioned ICBMs, but there are several involved.

Number three, what mechanisms exist to ensure continuity of care when a contractor collapses or walks away? Again? He mentioned ICBMs, but is there a national contingency plan? And finally, will the government now review whether the current model with chains and expanding rapidly through acquisition and debt, is fit to safeguard community pharmacy in the long term? And linked to this, can the Minister definitively confirm the funding settlement is not compromised? The ten year NHS plan states it wants to move more care into the community, yet it's completely missing a delivery chapter on how to achieve it.

At the same time, we have issues like cahoots, so I hope the minister will be taking steps to investigate this issue in its entirety. Taking actions to safeguard against the type of incident happening again, and spelling out the delivery aspect of the ten.

12:57

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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Year plan. for his for his questions. In terms of first awareness of what was happening with Jude's, he will know that they entered the market through the purchase of a number of Lloyds pharmacies that were no longer going concern, and that took place in 2023. So in terms of the question about the due diligence on Jukes as an operator, that's probably a question he should be asking. One of my predecessors from his party that were in power at the time, since they purchased the, they have expanded rapidly.

And that has been where we've seen then the question marks around their ability to operate and serious downgrading of services. I have not met with the management of boots. We are looking at a whole range of legal and. Regulatory enforcement procedures, and the decision we have therefore taken is that it is better not to interfere in any way in those processes, but I will. I am certainly monitoring that very closely. And if we have legal advice that suggests such a meeting would be a good idea, then I'm of course open to that idea.

But the current legal position the advice we've received is, is that it would not be appropriate at this time in terms of local pharmacy access. Integrated care boards are, of course, have a statutory responsibility to ensure adequate pharmacy provision. So some ICBMs, for example, have allowed dispensing GP practices to provide dispensing services to affected patients, whilst others have worked with local GP practices to advise patients to nominate alternative nearby pharmacies for their prescriptions. We've looked at the impact geographically in terms of where juice is placed and in most cases, our view is that there is an alternative pharmacy provision within striking distance.

But there are, I think, 4 or 5 areas of the country where that's not the case, including the honourable gentleman who secured this Urgent Question in his constituency. I'm very conscious of that. And then extra provision needs to be made through the ice OBS and through GPS to ensure perhaps it might be through distance selling or other means to ensure that patients are getting access to their pharmaceutical needs. He asks about continuity of care and national contingency. I this is a very challenging situation because, as I mentioned in my remarks and as officials have said, we haven't seen this level of decline in service so rapidly.

And so we are working at pace to strengthen the regulatory framework and looking at contingency plans. I don't see any reason why the overall funding settlement for pharmacy should be undermined, and we will continue to protect community pharmacy as a crucially important part of our NHS. Hamilton.

13:00

Paulette Hamilton MP (Birmingham Erdington, Labour)

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Thank you.

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I would like to thank the Minister for his response. The role

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Minister for his response. The role of community pharmacies like pharmacy. My area called large pharmacy very common.

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It's absolutely. Vital and this is why. Sorry, but

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Vital and this is why. Sorry, but also I'd like to. Sorry I've lost track, but they offer community track, but they offer community pharmacies are offer an excellent service and this is why I'm service and this is why I'm concerned with places like jute pharmacy closing and folding or pharmacy closing and folding or maybe folding. The question I'd like to ask. Coming up to the winter to ask. Coming up to the winter months, I have been passionate about winter measures.

How are we going to ensure that our pharmacies are going to be able to offer the winter vaccines that are needed this year? vaccines that are needed this year? If we lose large chains like Jukes Jukes, pharmacy. Sorry about that.

13:02

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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Jukes, pharmacy. Sorry about that. Yeah right. Minister. I thank my friend and pay tribute to her work on the Select Committee. to her work on the Select Committee. NHS England is assessing the situation and preparing contingency plans in case Jutes does become insolvent. Such plans involve working with other local pharmacies and dispensing GP practices to ensure that patients continue to have access to medicines. Continuity of care, as she rightly points out, has to be at the heart of our response to this and we are working at pace to ensure that continuity of care is protected.

13:02

Helen Morgan MP (North Shropshire, Liberal Democrat)

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Select Committee forgive me. Liberal Democrat spokesperson Helen Morgan. Thank you very much. Madam Deputy Speaker, can I first thank my hon. Friend the member for West Dorset for raising this appalling issue. Pharmacists are at the heart of our communities, and they are relied upon by millions, and they are under increasing pressure right across the country where we're seeing irregular opening hours and, and, and forecast closures for families living in communities that rely on Cahoots pharmacies, like those in the constituency of my hon.

Friend and many other parts of the country will be deeply concerned that they and their loved ones are about to be left without medicines, potentially, that they desperately need, while their staff have been placed in an intolerable situation. The National Pharmacy Association Chief Executive has said. As we've heard, that Cahoots risks damaging the reputation of community pharmacies. The government urgently needs to grip this issue and ensure that patients and the staff of these pharmacies are not being let down. So will the Minister and the Secretary of State agree to meet with all the members in this place whose communities are being affected by potential closures? Will he update the House at the earliest opportunity as to what steps he's taking to stabilise the crisis in community pharmacy across the country, and is he confident that ICI bees, who are distracted by 50% cuts to their budgets, a top down reorganisation, that they have the capacity to deal with this urgent situation as they head into a planning for the next winter crisis?

13:03

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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Sir. with honourable members who have Jutes in their constituency and are affected by this. I will absolutely update the House. We are taking action on looking at strengthening the regulation, but there is also. A some constraints on what I can say because so much of this is now going through legal process. As I say, there are there is pushback. We don't want to do anything to jeopardise the legal action that we are taking through the appeal process, and I'll have to be relatively circumspect in, in, in what I say.

But I'm happy to have those discussions and to update the House. I am confident that Icbc's can take this forward. As I said, in most cases across the country, based on our assessment, there is a pharmacy within striking distance of a duty, but certainly in those areas where there isn't, that may require particular follow up action, and my officials and I will be following up with those ICBMs to ensure that the appropriate action has been taken.

13:04

Melanie Onn MP (Great Grimsby and Cleethorpes, Labour)

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Melanie Onn. Speaker. Five members of staff have been to see me from the Lacy Road Pharmacy. They've been going into work but haven't been paid since July. It is absolutely appalling. Can the Minister set out what pressure he and the Department can

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bring to bear on this chain, which has now unfortunately closed its doors for good? You.

13:05

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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You. I thank Honourable friend for that question. I agree with absolutely every word of what she's just said. It is completely unacceptable that people are coming into work doing an honest day's work and not being receiving an honest day's pay for that work. Unfortunately, there's a limit to what we can do because pharmacies are private businesses and each employer is required to fulfil their legal obligations in terms of paying their staff, I would recommend that the members of staff that she mentions contact Acas and they should also, if they're not already in touch with the PDA, their trade union.

If they are members of that union, I would strongly recommend that joining a trade union and seeking legal advice from a trade union is a vitally important part of what trade unions do. They need to take action on this and to force Jutes to do the right thing.

13:06

Simon Hoare MP (North Dorset, Conservative)

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Simon Hall.

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Thank you very much indeed. Madam Speaker. I want to thank my friend and Labour for West Dorset for and Labour for West Dorset for introducing this Urgent Question. I have exactly the same problem as he and the honourable member for North and the honourable member for North Somerset, but in Shaftesbury in my constituency, I want to thank the staff at boots who are picking up such a huge amount of slack because the checkouts are, isn't there? There's a danger to the one member of staff who is on duty because they were prescribed drugs on the premises, and she's the only person there, and I do worry for her there, and I do worry for her safety.

I wonder what additional support the department can give to those existing providers, like boots, who are picking up the slack, particularly during the winter peak, with regards to advice to patient with regards to advice to patient and also administering vaccines. This is a clear breach of contract, but I'm told by ICB it doesn't fall but I'm told by ICB it doesn't fall within contract law. The regulations are moot on this point because the are moot on this point because the circumstances that are a huge find itself in was never envisaged when the regulations were written.

That's the problem which the Minister has identified. There does seem to be some timidity amongst officials and others with regards to the others with regards to the overhanging threat of a judicial review, where the government to act review, where the government to act in extremis to introduce an urgency to it. I would urge the Minister to take that risk on behalf of our of all of our constituents. And I certainly welcome and look forward to his offer to the suggestion of the Honourable lady from North Shropshire that all Members of Parliament with constituents affected by this dire problem, will be involved in meeting so that we can provide timely advice and update and support to our constituents who are, of course, rightly worried.

13:07

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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Minister.

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I thank him for his question and I pay tribute to the employees in the boots, which is close by. The the boots, which is close by. The Jutes that is not providing the service that's required. And we service that's required. And we really do appreciate that. I can assure him that absolutely nothing is off the table. He has rightly is off the table. He has rightly identified the problem, which is that the regulatory framework is that the regulatory framework is strong on pharmacists, strong and pharmacist premises strong and pharmacy staff.

But it seems that pharmacy staff. But it seems that there is something of a gap when it comes to regulating pharmacy business owners. That is a gap that business owners. That is a gap that has been identified. I have asked a commission, my officials, I've commissioned my officials to work on

13:08

Naushabah Khan MP (Gillingham and Rainham, Labour)

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that at pace, and I would happily keep him updated on that work. Naushabah Khan thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank

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Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Minister for the context he has provided in the responses he has provided so far. Jutes in my constituency of Gillian and Rainham constituency of Gillian and Rainham have provided an incredibly poor service not paying staff, not dispensing vital medicine and often not opening on time. However, any replacement pharmacy or provider is not able to come in because at the moment the pharmaceutical needs assessment locally suggest that the provision is functioning. Will the Minister consider a review of the criteria surrounding PaaS so that not only do they let those pharmacies that are available, but also look at failures such as the ones that we are seeing reduced and are able to recognise that so other providers can take their place if need to be.

13:09

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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Minister.

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I thank my hon. Friend and she's also put her finger on an issue within all of this, which is if within all of this, which is if you're looking to bring in other pharmacies to open up to replace pharmacies to open up to replace Jutes, or indeed to take over a jute store, you can't do that. In the latter case, until such time as there is an insolvency and that business is no longer a going business is no longer a going concern.

And if you want to bring in, there is a process for opening new pharmacies as set out in new pharmacies as set out in legislation. Potential new pharmacy contractors can apply to open in the area and evidence how a new pharmacy area and evidence how a new pharmacy can provide benefits for patients. It is, however, a challenge for new contractors to make such a case. If contractors to make such a case. If a pharmacy is still listed as open and providing services in the area. and providing services in the area.

So it's something of a catch 22 situation, we first of all have to resolve the issue with jute and take

13:10

Layla Moran MP (Oxford West and Abingdon, Liberal Democrat)

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the necessary action, and then we see where we are in terms of potential gaps in the market. Select Committee Chair Layla from.

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from. The. This case is clearly hugely unfortunate, given the incredible. Work that.

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Work that. Community pharmacies do up. And down the country for our constituents. I am pleased to hear the Minister say that this case won't negatively affect the funding settlement, but we also know this is in the backdrop of a very precarious sector where actors, we want to do good by our communities, who want to do a high quality job, often find they simply can't make ends meet at the end of the day, and bad actors find a way to move in.

When the committee looked last at this workforce was a key plank to why this sector was not sustainable. What update can the Minister give us on the inclusion of pharmacists in the workforce plan?

13:10

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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Minister. pay tribute to her work as Chair of the Select Committee. I'm very proud of the fact that we delivered a £500 million uplift to pharmacy, 19% across the two year period. That is the highest uplift of any sector, not just of my portfolio, but of the entire NHS. I'm also very proud of the fact that we're taking forward hub and spoke legislation to enable pharmacists and pharmacy technicians to operate at the top of their licence, and we have also just yes, the day before yesterday signed off on an Si for improving the ability of technicians on dispensing and to do more in that area as well.

So we're looking to empower the workforce, enable them to operate at the top of the licence. And that is a fundamental part of the shift from hospital to community. That is at the heart of our ten year plan. the heart of our ten year plan.

13:11

Cat Smith MP (Lancaster and Wyre, Labour)

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Cat Smith thank you. Second and. long before constituents were getting in touch with me, explaining that they couldn't access their prescriptions because the pharmacies were. Closed and it was very unreliable. However, we do have a very good Over Wyre Medical Centre which has dispensing rights. However, they're. Restrained by the one mile rule, which means they can't dispense. Prescriptions within one mile of where a pharmacy is, regardless of whether or not it's open or closed. So I feel like we're in a catch 22 situation here.

What help can the Minister give my constituents to ensure that those constituents who are within the one mile of the pharmacy that's never open, can access their prescriptions from the dispensing over why a medical practice. Minister.

13:12

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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I thank her for that question. She has absolutely rightly put her finger on the catch 22 situation in which we find ourselves. It is patently absurd that a pharmacy that isn't operating as she just described at the Jukes isn't operating, is blocking the ability of others to step in and fill the gap. That is something we have to resolve. It's part of the work that I've commissioned urgently. We've clearly got gaps in the regulatory framework. This is an unprecedented situation.

We're working at pace to address it. But she's absolutely rightly put a finger on the catch 22 that needs to be resolved. We need to move one piece out of the way so that we can deal adequately with this situation. this situation.

13:13

Bradley Thomas MP (Bromsgrove, Conservative)

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Bradley Thomas thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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suppliers. As well, and they're failing communities who desperately rely on them.

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them. The government is planning to introduce a health bill at some will.

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will. See the abolition of NHS England. Can the Minister update the House on when that. Bill will come forwards, and what provision it will contain

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and what provision it will contain within it to strengthen accountability for delivery of community pharmacy provision? Thank you sir.

13:13

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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Thank you sir. I thank him. I know that my colleague, the Minister of State for colleague, the Minister of State for health, is working hard on the drafting process for that bill. I can't give him the exact date of its introduction, but I'd be very happy to write right to him with confirmation of the expected introduction date.

13:14

Jonathan Davies. Yes, thank you. pleased this question has been tabled today because I've written to the Minister about this company, and I'm also very grateful to my honourable friend from North Somerset, who has given me advice in this matter. I'm pleased the government is taking regulatory action in respect of the quality, safety and availability of the service. But I was horrified to hear that several of my constituents working for this company have gone unpaid for several weeks, so please could I ask him to reach out to the relevant minister within the Department for Business and Trade, just to see if there's anything else that we can do for those people, because it's just simply not right

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that they're out of pocket. So I thank my honourable friend for that. That's an excellent suggestion. I will do that if there

13:14

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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suggestion. I will do that if there is clear evidence of breach of employment law. And we're hearing colleague after colleague saying that staff are not being paid, we absolutely need to look to that. Look at that. And I will follow up on his suggestion.

13:14

Richard Foord MP (Honiton and Sidmouth, Liberal Democrat)

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Richard Foord. the line from the Minister that pharmacy staff are not employed by the NHS, but by pharmacy businesses, and this is just a dispute between staff and the pharmacy business that should be raised in the first

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instance with Acas. Holly Froggatt, a. Former member.

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Former member. writes. Staff have emailed. Them begging for their wages.

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Them begging for their wages. As they have empty bank accounts. In normal. Circumstances, the government likes to lean on pharmacies to take likes to lean on pharmacies to take the pressure off GPS with such schemes as pharmacy first. So how can the minister simply wash his

13:15

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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can the minister simply wash his hands of the situation when staff have gone three months without pay?

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Minister well, I thank him for that. I don't think that's an accurate characterisation of what accurate characterisation of what I'm saying. I am saying that we are taking action against Jutes from the taking action against Jutes from the regulatory point of view, and there is clearly a very glaring issue is clearly a very glaring issue around the payment of their staff that needs to be taken forward through the industrial relations process, both through Acas and through the PDA. We will absolutely through the PDA.

We will absolutely give all the support we can to both of those in terms of ensuring that

13:16

Lizzi Collinge MP (Morecambe and Lunesdale, Labour)

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of those in terms of ensuring that that is held to account. Lizzi Collinge thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker. My constituents. In. Sedbergh.

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Sedbergh. Which is a rural market town, have also suffered greatly from the terrible pharmacy provision from terrible pharmacy provision from Jutes, you know, medicines unavailable, often being closed, staff and locum pharmacists going unpaid. Yet pace looks being issued so it's very hard for them to claim benefits. I've written to the minister, as he knows I've met with the ICB and doctors and neighbouring pharmacists and when I say neighbouring, this is Westmorland, so that's a 40 minute drive away to the neighbouring pharmacists have stepped in to help and of course as, as has the parish council.

So the, the minister outline for me what action he's taking nationally to force duties to provide a better service for my constituents.

13:17

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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Minister.

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I thank her for that. And we are actively working with integrated actively working with integrated care boards, with NHS England, with the GPC, the General Pharmaceutical the GPC, the General Pharmaceutical Council and indeed trade unions to ensure that all of these issues are being taken forward and given the urgency that they require. Sadly, as I have pointed out, the regulatory I have pointed out, the regulatory framework is not adequate. It is very focussed on pharmacists and pharmacy premises and in inadequately and insufficiently focussed on business owners.

That is

13:18

Mike Wood MP (Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, Conservative)

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focussed on business owners. That is clearly something that must be addressed as a matter of urgency and we are working on it at pace. Mike Wood.

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Mike Wood. Thank you, Madam Speaker. The failure of. June is. Putting unsustainable.

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Putting unsustainable. Pressure on other alternative. Pharmacies around Kingswinford and South Staffordshire.

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But talks haven't even. Begun on. Pharmacy funding beyond March of next year.

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So given. The urgent situation with tubes, will the Minister review the

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timescale for those talks so that our pharmacies that are having to pick up this extra work. Can have.

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Can have. Some certainty about future funding? Mr. I thank him for that question. This is absolutely urgent, as he rightly says, I have commissioned rightly says, I have commissioned officials to work on this matter at pace. We clearly see that this is a matter of national significance, matter of national significance, just. Simply by the number of colleagues in the chamber today talking about this issue. So I can absolutely give him that assurance, and I'd be happy to update him once I've got a better sense of exactly I've got a better sense of exactly the time frame, the deadlines, and we will be insisting that things happen as a matter of urgency.

happen as a matter of urgency.

13:18

James Naish MP (Rushcliffe, Labour)

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James Naish thank you, Madam.

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Two pharmacies in my Ruscote constituency over recess, and they were clear with me that despite improved funding, they are still improved funding, they are still struggling with overly complex funding formulas, delay payments, high energy prices and drug high energy prices and drug shortages, among other challenges. However, the positive initiatives are pharmacy First and the are pharmacy First and the Independent Prescribing Pathfinder programme offer a ray of hope. So I wondered if the Minister could wondered if the Minister could commit to continuing to invest time and energy in expanding those programmes, and maybe meet with my

13:19

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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programmes, and maybe meet with my pharmacies from Rushcliffe to discuss them further. Minister. I thank him. We remain absolutely committed to the independent prescribing Service, and we are working on the plans and strategy to make that a reality. Pharmacy first, we continue to support, sadly take up on pharmacy first has not been as good as we would have liked it to be. I think the way in which it was structured and incentivised has not enabled it to realise its full potential, and we are working on that as well, because I think a number of areas were taken by the premiums made by the previous government, which didn't set pharmacy first up to succeed to the extent that it should have been.

13:20

Sarah Dyke MP (Glastonbury and Somerton, Liberal Democrat)

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Jude's pharmacies revealed.

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community pharmacies. The towns. home. To fantastic independent

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To fantastic independent pharmacies continuing to serve their communities, despite more than half of. Pharmacy owners. Losing money. Last year.

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Last year. So how will the government ensure that the regulatory framework is that the regulatory framework is robust so that community pharmacy services in rural areas can remain resilient and accessible?

13:20

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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resilient and accessible? Minister. I think and she's absolutely right, this is about making the right, this is about making the regulatory framework more robust. As I've pointed out, it is robust on pharmacists, on technicians and on pharmacy premises. It is simply not strong enough when it comes to pharmacy business owners. And this unprecedented case of juice is throwing that into sharp relief. That is what we are working on at pace, and I'd be very happy to update her once we've got some clear progress on what the plan and strategy is to ensure that we are beefing up the regulatory framework to ensure that this kind of thing can never happen again.

13:21

Josh Dean MP (Hertford and Stortford, Labour)

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Josh Dean.

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I met last week with. Staff from Duke's Pharmacy in. Thorley and was shocked. When they told me that they'd

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When they told me that they'd working. With. Some struggling. afford.

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afford. Food for their children's school lunches. But their. Concern was for their residents, many elderly.

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many elderly. And vulnerable. Who have been left without essential medication because of stock issues and unexpected closures. These are good, decent people who want to provide a people who want to provide a community service for our residents. So can the Minister assure my constituents directly that the department will look at all options possible, and that they will work across government, where relevant, to ensure that the situation allowed to ensure that the situation allowed this to become a problem and to address the specific situation affecting my constituents now will

13:22

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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be addressed. I thank him and I pay tribute to his constituents, who are clearly going through an extremely difficult and challenging time. I would strongly recommend that they contact Acas and also the PDA or another trade union if they happen to be a member of another trade union. I think the key point he's made is around how we ensure that this doesn't happen again. You know, the GP, the General Pharmaceutical Council, is taking enforcement action against individual pharmacies, and we have to wait for the outcome of those actions.

Some of those are going through appeal processes. I think as soon as one of those actions has concluded, that will greatly facilitate and catalyse the process for going after any pharmacy that is not delivering to expect.

13:22

James Wild MP (North West Norfolk, Conservative)

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James Wild thank you. Pharmacy in South Wootton in north west Norfolk, have been let down, going months without pay, no communication from management or stock and the pharmacies left after non-payment. And when I raised the issues with the company, they simply refused to respond. The minister has referred to regulatory changes in the future, but given this pattern is repeated across the country, what urgent steps is the Minister taking to work with Icbc's collectively to ensure that staff get the money they're owed, that services that have been commissioned are delivered and will not rule out taking action against individual directors.

13:23

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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Minister. say, we are in constant dialogue with ICBC, with the GPC and we need to I absolutely get it. We need to speed it up. It needs to be faster. It needs to be more urgent. I am absolutely clear about that. And we are taking this forward as a matter of priority in terms of taking action against individual directors. Nothing is off the table, but as I say, the regulatory framework as things stand doesn't facilitate that.

So we've got to look at other options. But there are views in the GPC which suggest perhaps that there are some ways of looking at interpreting regulations and legislation that could potentially facilitate more immediate action. So that's that is on the menu of actions that we're looking at.

13:24

Steff Aquarone MP (North Norfolk, Liberal Democrat)

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Steff Aquarone thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

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suffering from completely unacceptable service from our local. Branch of Cahoots. Shortages of drugs, shortages of pharmacists, issues. With paying staff and a litany of other issues have caused chaos, including one resident sent by NHS 111.

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resident sent by NHS 111. To secure. Emergency antibiotics, only to find themselves standing in the rain

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outside a closed pharmacy, fearful they would end up in A&E. Can the minister tell people in. Sheringham and the surrounding.

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Sheringham and the surrounding. Villages what protection there will be for services, if Cahoots are no longer seen fit to. Provide them? How taxpayers money is being

13:25

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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How taxpayers money is being protected from being lost here. But most importantly, how on earth was it allowed to get this bad in the first place?

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Minister. I thank him for that question. In

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I thank him for that question. In terms of the replacement for acute services, that is where we are in this catch 22 situation because until they have been a pharmacy that's not providing a service, let's say, has it been moved out of the way, it's not possible to move in and replace that service with another. So the first step in all of this is to take action against those pharmacies that are not delivering to requisite service standards. As soon as we can get that process moving, we can start to commission and bring in alternative providers.

I share his frustration. I share the impatience of his constituents, and I can assure him that we're taking issues.

13:25

Jim Shannon MP (Strangford, Democratic Unionist Party)

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Final question Jim Shannon.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I thank the Minister very. Much for strong answers and as to

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restore confidence as well? Will the Minister acknowledge that pressure on the NHS, especially coming into the winter months, means coming into the winter months, means that pharmacies will be playing a bigger role in preparing basic help and advice, and not being unable to rely on a pharmacy cannot be sustained. And can the minister outline, please, the professional standards that are expected of pharmaceutical chains throughout the United Kingdom of Great Britain and

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United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and how these private companies can be held to their public obligations. Thank you Minister.

13:26

Stephen Kinnock MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Aberafan Maesteg, Labour)

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Thank you Minister. I thank him, and I agree absolutely that the vital role that absolutely that the vital role that community pharmacy plays now and going into the future, and we want that role to continue and to be strengthened and indeed expanded. If you look at our ten year plan, the shift from hospital to community, while community pharmacy at the heart of that, but also the shift from sickness to prevention, the vital work that community pharmacy plays in terms of delivering vaccines and a whole range of other services that really will support the prevention agenda.

So community pharmacy is at the heart of our plan. The standards are as set out by the General Pharmaceutical Council. They are robust standards. It requires a certain level of service to be provided, certain levels of expertise and experience that is all very robustly regulated. What we clearly now need to do is upgrade the way that we regulate pharmacy business owners. And that is something that my, my officials

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and I are working on as a matter of urgency. That concludes the urgent. Question on pharmacy.

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Question on pharmacy. I'll give the frontbenchers a few moments to shuffle over, and we will moments to shuffle over, and we will

13:27

13:41

Rt Hon Priti Patel MP (Witham, Conservative)

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